'“I like being scared”: Molly Graham’s frameworks for rapid career growth | Molly Graham'
Lenny Rachitsky: You've worked with many very high performing founder CEOs.
Lenny Rachitsky：您曾与许多表现非常出色的创始人首席执行官共事过。
Zuck, Cheryl Sandberg.
扎克，谢丽尔桑德伯格。
Larry and Sergei at Google.
拉里和谢尔盖在谷歌。
Brett Taylor.
布雷特·泰勒.
Molly Graham: Google, when I was there, felt like two PhD students paradise.
Molly Graham：当我在那里的时候，谷歌感觉就像两个博士生的天堂。
Facebook felt like 19-year-old hacker's dorm room.
Facebook 感觉就像 19 岁黑客的宿舍。
80% of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder.
公司文化的80%实际上是由创始人的个性决定的。
Our job as operators or as leaders is to help articulate the culture that they're creating.
作为运营商或领导者，我们的工作是帮助阐明他们正在创造的文化。
Lenny Rachitsky: When a lot of people think Molly Graham, a lot of people think of giving away your Legos.
Lenny Rachitsky：当很多人想到莫莉·格雷厄姆时，很多人都会想到赠送你的乐高积木。
Molly Graham: You have to grow as fast as your company is growing if you really want to take advantage, both learning to give away what you've gotten good at and move on to the next shiny pile of Legos.
Molly Graham：如果你真的想利用公司的发展速度，那么你的成长速度就必须与公司的发展速度一样快，既要学会放弃你所擅长的东西，又要继续学习下一堆闪亮的乐高积木。
Lenny Rachitsky: Sarah Caldwell.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：莎拉·考德威尔。
She told me that the framework that helped her most in her career is something that you call the J-curve versus stairs.
她告诉我，在她的职业生涯中对她帮助最大的框架就是所谓的“J 曲线与阶梯”。
Molly Graham: So Chamath, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：查马斯在向我推荐这份工作时，实际上在白板上给我画了一张图。
He said, the way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs.
他说，很多人的事业之路就是一套楼梯。
Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years.
只要走上楼梯，你每两年就会升职一次。
But that is boring.
但这很无聊。
The much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs and you do fall, but then you climb out way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.
更有趣的职业就像跳下悬崖，你确实会跌倒，但随后你会爬出楼梯无法到达的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Molly Graham.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是莫莉·格雷厄姆。
Molly was an early employee at Google, also at Facebook, where she worked closely with Zuck on building the Chan Zuckerberg initiative.
莫莉是谷歌和 Facebook 的早期员工，她与扎克密切合作建立了陈·扎克伯格计划。
She also worked with Brett Taylor on scaling Quip, which he sold to Salesforce.
她还与 Brett Taylor 合作扩展 Quip，后者将其卖给了 Salesforce。
She's also worked with hundreds of companies and founders helping them grow into the leaders that they want to become.
她还与数百家公司和创始人合作，帮助他们成长为他们想成为的领导者。
Today, she leads Glue Club, which is a community for leaders operating in changing, growing environments who want to develop themselves as quickly as their companies.
如今，她领导着 Glue Club，这是一个为在不断变化、不断发展的环境中工作、希望自己与公司一样快速发展的领导者而设的社区。
Molly is maybe most known for her advice to give away your Legos, which we chat about.
莫莉最著名的可能是她赠送乐高积木的建议，我们对此进行了讨论。
Along with basically all of her favorite frameworks and mindsets and pieces of advice that she's developed and collected over time.
以及她随着时间的推移开发和收集的基本上所有她最喜欢的框架和心态以及建议。
For leaders who are going through rapid scale and growth and are just struggling to keep up.
对于那些正在经历快速规模和增长并且正在努力跟上的领导者来说。
I think of this episode as a high growth handbook for leaders who are experiencing rapid scale.
我认为这一集对于正在经历快速扩张的领导者来说是一本高成长手册。
Lenny Rachitsky: We cover the J curves versus stairs approach to career growth, the waterline model, and why you want to snorkel before you scuba.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们介绍了职业发展的 J 曲线与阶梯方法、水线模型，以及为什么在潜水之前要先浮潜。
Her six rules for creating goals and building alignment, her rules of thumb for dealing with rapid scale and lots of change.
她制定目标和建立一致性的六条规则，以及处理快速规模和大量变化的经验法则。
The biggest lessons she's learned from Zuck and Sergei and Larry and Cheryl and Brett Taylor and so much more.
她从扎克、谢尔盖、拉里、谢丽尔和布雷特·泰勒身上学到的最重要的教训等等。
Molly is incredible and you will be a better leader after listening to this episode.
莫莉太棒了，听完本集后您将成为一名更好的领导者。
A huge thank you to Eric Antonow, Ashley Murphy and Sarah Caldwell for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation.
非常感谢埃里克·安东诺、阿什利·墨菲和莎拉·考德威尔为本次对话提出的主题和问题。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 上关注它。
It helps tremendously.
它有很大帮助。
And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 19 incredible products for free for an entire year.
如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以全年免费获得 19 种令人难以置信的产品。
Including, Lovable, Replit, Bold, gamma, Innate and Linear, Devon, Posttalk, Superhuman descript, Whisper Flow, Perplexity.
包括：Lovable、Replit、Bold、gamma、Innate and Linear、Devon、Posttalk、Super human descript、Whisper Flow、Perplexity。
Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChapiRD, Mobbit, and Stripe Atlas.
Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChapiRD、Mobbit 和 Stripe Atlas。
Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.
前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。
With that, I bring you Molly Graham after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了莫莉·格雷厄姆 (Molly Graham)。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 DX 为您带来的，DX 是由领先研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。
To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly.
为了在人工智能时代蓬勃发展，组织需要快速适应。
But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working?
但许多组织领导者很难回答紧迫的问题，例如哪些工具有效？
How are they being used?
它们是如何使用的？
What's actually driving value?
真正推动价值的是什么？
DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift.
DX 提供领导者应对这一转变所需的数据和见解。
With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, Addien, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers.
借助 DX，Dropbox、booking.com、Addien 和 Intercom 等公司可以深入了解 AI 如何为其开发人员提供价值。
And what impact AI is having on engineering productivity.
人工智能对工程生产力有何影响。
To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.
要了解更多信息，请访问 DX 网站：getdx.com/lenny。
That's getdx.com/lenny.
那是 getdx.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're a founder, the hardest part of starting a company isn't having the idea.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你是一名创始人，创办公司最困难的部分就是没有想法。
It's scaling the business without getting buried in back office work.
它可以在不陷入后台工作的情况下扩展业务。
That's where Brex comes in.
这就是布雷克斯发挥作用的地方。
Brex is the intelligent finance platform for founders.
Brex是为创始人打造的智能金融平台。
With Brex, you get high limit corporate cards, easy banking, high yield treasury, plus a team of AI agents that handle manual finance tasks for you.
通过 Brex，您可以获得高限额的公司卡、便捷的银行业务、高收益的财务，以及为您处理手动财务任务的人工智能代理团队。
They'll do all the stuff that you don't want to do, like file your expenses, scour transactions for waste, and run reports all according to your rules.
他们会做所有您不想做的事情，例如归档您的费用、清理交易中的浪费以及根据您的规则运行报告。
With Brex's AI agents, you can move faster while staying in full control.
借助 Brex 的 AI 代理，您可以更快地行动，同时保持完全控制。
One in three startups in the United States already runs on Brex.
美国三分之一的初创公司已经在 Brex 上运行。
You can too at brex.com.
您也可以访问 brex.com。
Molly, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
莫莉，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Molly Graham: Thanks, Lenny.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：谢谢，莱尼。
I'm excited to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like this conversation was in an inevitability.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得这次谈话是不可避免的。
I feel like you're the kind of guest where it's like, we will do this someday.
我觉得你是那种感觉我们有一天会这样做的客人。
I'm such a fan of your stuff.
我非常喜欢你的东西。
I've read all the stuff you've put out there over the years.
我读过你这些年来发表的所有内容。
We're going to be talking about the best frameworks and mindsets that you've developed over the years that have been really helpful to you, to founders, to companies that you've worked with to help them with growth and scale and change and all the stuff that comes with success.
我们将讨论您多年来开发的最佳框架和思维方式，这些框架和思维方式对您、创始人、与您合作的公司确实有帮助，帮助他们实现增长、规模和变革以及成功带来的所有东西。
The way I think about this, I want to make this the greatest hits of Molly Graham.
我的想法是，我想让这成为莫莉·格雷厄姆最伟大的作品。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so I sourced what I think are the greatest hits from a lot of colleagues that you've worked with, a lot of people you've worked with.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我从与你共事过的很多同事那里收集了我认为最热门的内容。
We've chatted about the stuff that you find other people find most helpful.
我们讨论了您认为其他人认为最有帮助的内容。
So we're going to be going through all that stuff.
所以我们将经历所有这些事情。
But let's help people understand why they should listen to this advice.
但让我们帮助人们理解为什么他们应该听取这个建议。
What's kind of the backstory on these frameworks?
这些框架的背景故事是什么？
Where did they come from?
他们从哪里来？
Where did you develop them?
你在哪里开发它们？
Tell us that story.
告诉我们那个故事。
Molly Graham: So first of all, Ami Vora, who you have had on your podcast, once said to me that all advice is just someone telling you what they did.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：首先，你的播客中的阿米·沃拉（Ami Vora）曾经对我说，所有的建议都只是有人告诉你他们做了什么。
And I always think about that.
我一直在思考这一点。
Because I really think that basically what I tell people is I've made every single mistake in the book.
因为我真的认为我基本上告诉人们的是我犯了书中的每一个错误。
And then I got to the end of the book and I started inventing new mistakes.
然后我读到了书的结尾，我开始发明新的错误。
So mostly what I feel is that I like sharing my stories because I want to help people.
所以我最主要的感受是我喜欢分享我的故事，因为我想帮助人们。
I want to help people not make the same mistakes I did.
我想帮助人们不要犯和我一样的错误。
And I also want to help people make sense of what they're experiencing.
我还想帮助人们理解他们正在经历的事情。
But I started in tech in 2007.
但我从 2007 年开始涉足科技行业。
I actually started at Google the week the iPhone launched and a lot of my scaling battle scars come from a couple of experiences.
事实上，我在 iPhone 发布的那一周就开始在谷歌工作了，我在规模扩张方面的很多伤痕都来自于几次经历。
They come from a year and a half at Google, which is not very long.
他们在谷歌工作了一年半，时间并不算长。
Molly Graham: And Google was pretty big when I was there.
Molly Graham：当我在那里的时候，谷歌已经相当大了。
It has thousands of employees.
它拥有数千名员工。
But my department, which was the communications department, was 25 people when I joined and it grew in nine months to 125 people.
但我加入时，我所在的部门（即通讯部门）有 25 名员工，9 个月内人数增加到 125 名。
And that was really my first experience with just all the sort of things that I still talk about today.
这确实是我第一次经历我今天仍在谈论的所有事情。
In terms of what it feels like to grow really, really fast and sort of all the tools that I started developing from there.
就成长得非常非常快的感觉以及我从那里开始开发的所有工具而言。
After Google, I left and followed Cheryl Sandberg and Elliot Schrage to Facebook.
离开谷歌后，我离开了，跟随谢丽尔·桑德伯格和埃利奥特·施拉格来到了 Facebook。
And I spent five years at Facebook.
我在 Facebook 工作了五年。
And I joined Facebook in 2008, and it's important context because it was 80 million users at the time.
我于 2008 年加入 Facebook，这是一个重要的背景，因为当时有 8000 万用户。
We were smaller than MySpace.
我们比 MySpace 小。
It was 270 million in revenue, 500 employees.
收入2.7亿，员工500人。
It did not feel inevitable.
这并不是不可避免的。
Most people thought we were going to sell it to Microsoft.
大多数人认为我们要把它卖给微软。
When I told people I was going there, they were like, isn't that place just like a site for college kids?
当我告诉人们我要去那里时，他们会说，那个地方不是像大学生的网站吗？
And so I was there for five years and it was a crazy five years.
我在那里待了五年，那是疯狂的五年。
Molly Graham: When I left, it was 5,500 employees, five billion in revenue, over a billion users.
Molly Graham：当我离开时，公司有 5,500 名员工，50 亿美元的收入，超过 10 亿用户。
So a huge amount of what I experienced, what I write about, what I talk about in Glue Club, which is the community that I run, comes from that rapid scale at Google and Facebook.
因此，我在 Glue Club（我运营的社区）中经历的、我写的、我谈论的大量内容都来自 Google 和 Facebook 的快速规模。
But I also, I left Facebook right after we went public, about six months after we went public.
但我也在 Facebook 上市后就离开了，大约是在我们上市六个月后。
And I only like doing jobs that I'm highly unqualified for.
我只喜欢做那些我非常不适合的工作。
I like being on learning curves so steep that I'm scared I'm going to fall off.
我喜欢处于如此陡峭的学习曲线上，以至于我害怕自己会掉下来。
And so I left and I wanted to learn what it took to build something from nothing.
所以我离开了，我想了解如何从无到有地创造出一些东西。
And so I joined this little startup founded by Brett Taylor, a startup called Quip.
于是我加入了 Brett Taylor 创立的这家小型初创公司，名为 Quip。
I joined a couple of months before we launched and ran everything that wasn't product and engineering there for him.
在我们启动之前几个月我就加入了，并为他管理了除产品和工程之外的所有内容。
And that was such a valuable experience to me because the experience of building something from nothing is actually quite different than the experience of holding on for dear life while things are scaling so fast around you.
这对我来说是一次非常宝贵的经历，因为从无到有地构建一些东西的体验实际上与在你周围的事物飞速发展的情况下坚持亲爱的生活的体验有很大不同。
Molly Graham: And it really taught me about all the tools and skills you need to go from zero to one and then from one to two and how lonely it can be to build something.
Molly Graham：它确实教会了我从零到一、再从一到二所需的所有工具和技能，以及构建某些东西是多么孤独。
And we eventually sold that company to Salesforce.
我们最终将该公司卖给了 Salesforce。
And then again, only take jobs I'm highly unqualified for.
再说一次，只接受我非常不适合的工作。
But the last really chaotic scaling experience I had was actually helping Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan start their philanthropy, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative.
但我最后一次真正混乱的扩展经历实际上是帮助马克·扎克伯格和普里西拉·陈启动了他们的慈善事业，即陈·扎克伯格计划。
And I basically helped them for the first two years of its existence or its sort of like first full existence.
我基本上在它存在的前两年或它第一次完整存在时帮助了他们。
And philanthropy sounds calm.
慈善事业听起来很平静。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
We're like, oh, giving money away.
我们就像，哦，捐钱。
Must be so peaceful over there.
那里一定很平静吧。
And CZI grew from, I think the week I joined, it was 30 people and we bought two companies that week and it grew to 250 people that year.
我想我加入的那一周，CZI 的员工人数是 30 人，那周我们收购了两家公司，那一年人数增长到了 250 人。
And it was like using every single tool in my toolkit that I had taken from every other job that I'd had.
这就像使用我的工具箱中的每一个工具，这些工具都是我从其他工作中拿来的。
Molly Graham: So my advice and frameworks, like I said, come from having made a lot of mistakes.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以，正如我所说，我的建议和框架来自于犯了很多错误。
But I've also sort of made a personal study over the last 18 years, believe it or not.
但不管你信不信，我在过去 18 年里也进行了一项个人研究。
Essentially what does it take to thrive inside growing and changing companies, not just to hang on for dear life.
从本质上讲，如何才能在不断发展和变化的公司中蓬勃发展，而不仅仅是为了维持美好的生活。
What does it take to lead in the face of constant change?
面对不断的变化，需要什么来引领？
And really the other piece that I find truly fascinating is what genuinely makes the difference between a business that grows but then plateaus versus these generational businesses.
事实上，我发现真正令人着迷的另一件事是，增长但随后停滞不前的企业与这些代际企业之间的真正区别。
The ones that go on forever.
那些永远持续下去的。
Sort of the difference between a Twitter or MySpace and a Facebook.
有点像 Twitter 或 MySpace 与 Facebook 之间的区别。
Billions in revenue versus hundreds of billions in revenue.
数十亿的收入与数千亿的收入。
So what I like to do is take my experience and use it to help other leaders.
所以我喜欢做的就是利用我的经验来帮助其他领导者。
I want to give people tools that work.
我想为人们提供有用的工具。
And I also want to be honest about how hard all of this stuff really is.
我也想诚实地了解所有这些事情到底有多难。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I say this a lot in this podcast.
我在这个播客中说了很多次。
I just love the ROI that listeners of the podcast get.
我只是喜欢播客听众获得的投资回报率。
You spent 20 years toiling, struggling, working so hard, learning so much.
20年来，你们辛苦了，奋斗了，努力了，学到了很多。
And you're just here, here's all the answers that I've learned.
你就在这里，这就是我学到的所有答案。
And obviously not all the answers, but so many things that will help people avoid the pain and suffering that you've gone through.
显然不是所有的答案，但有很多事情可以帮助人们避免你所经历的痛苦和磨难。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, a couple quick threads I want to follow here.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，我想在这里关注几个快速主题。
One is Ami Vora, who you mentioned.
其中之一就是你提到的阿米·沃拉（Ami Vora）。
She's now, I think, head of product at Anthropic.
我认为她现在是 Anthropic 的产品主管。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Former podcast guest, also speaker at Lenny and Friends Summit two years ago.
前播客嘉宾，两年前也在莱尼和朋友峰会上发表演讲。
This other point you just made about how you've always gone to places that have been way beyond your...
你刚才提到的另一点是关于你总是去那些远远超出你能力范围的地方……
I forget how you phrased it, but just beyond your current capabilities almost.
我忘了你是怎么说的，但几乎超出了你目前的能力。
And were very difficult.
并且非常困难。
I just had Matt McGinnis on the podcast.
我刚刚在播客上看到了马特·麦金尼斯。
He's CEO at Rippling, now CPO at Rippling, and just recorded an episode with him.
他是 Rippling 的首席执行官，现任 Rippling 的首席产品官，刚刚和他一起录制了一集。
And he had this really powerful quote that if you're ever comfortable at work and feel like, oh, I got this, you're making a huge mistake.
他有一句非常有力的话，如果你在工作中感到舒服并且感觉，哦，我明白了，你就犯了一个巨大的错误。
Something's going terribly wrong.
出了什么大问题。
That's not where you want to be.
那不是你想去的地方。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
I always say I get bored really easily, which is both a strength and probably my greatest weakness.
我总是说我很容易感到无聊，这既是我的优点，也可能是我最大的缺点。
So I like being scared.
所以我喜欢害怕。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So let's actually dive into some of your greatest hits of frameworks.
因此，让我们实际深入了解一些最热门的框架。
And the greatest of all greats, when a lot of people think Molly Graham, a lot of people think of giving away your Legos.
最伟大的是，当很多人想到莫莉·格雷厄姆时，很多人都会想到赠送你的乐高积木。
Some people haven't heard of this, many people have, so let's cover this.
有些人没有听说过，但很多人都听说过，所以让我们来介绍一下。
What is this advice of giving away your Legos?
赠送乐高积木的建议是什么？
Molly Graham: So this definitely started in my experience at Google.
Molly Graham：所以这肯定是从我在谷歌的经历开始的。
And then Facebook was a masterclass in giving away the Legos.
Facebook 在赠送乐高积木方面堪称大师级作品。
But the way I like to talk about it is basically when I watch leaders and employees go through rapid scale, I like to think of somebody putting down a giant pile of Legos in front of a bunch of kindergartners and then just being like, build something.
但我喜欢谈论它的方式基本上是，当我看到领导者和员工经历快速规模化时，我喜欢想象有人在一群幼儿园孩子面前放下一大堆乐高积木，然后就像，建造一些东西。
And that's sort of what it feels like when you start.
这就是你开始时的感觉。
It's like, well, there's so many Legos and it's so fun.
就像，嗯，有这么多乐高积木，而且非常有趣。
There's a lot of opportunity, but it's also kind of scary and overwhelming.
机会有很多，但也有点令人恐惧和不知所措。
And you're like, there's so many Legos.
你会想，有这么多乐高积木。
What do I do?
我该怎么办？
Isn't there an instruction manual hidden under this pile somewhere?
这堆东西下面不是藏着一本说明书吗？
But then you start building and you're like, oh, okay.
但当你开始建造时，你会想，哦，好吧。
You build something and then you take it apart and then you put it back together.
你建造一些东西，然后把它拆开，然后再把它装回去。
Molly Graham: And then eventually you start to get momentum and you're like, okay, it's like I'm building a house.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：最终你开始获得动力，你会说，好吧，就像我正在盖房子一样。
I got this.
我明白了。
It's a house.
这是一栋房子。
All right, great.
好吧，太好了。
And then you're like, I'm good at building houses.
然后你就会说，我擅长建造房子。
I was put on earth to build houses.
我来到地球是为了建造房屋。
And almost assuredly inside of scaling companies, as soon as you're like, I feel good at this and I should do this forever.
几乎可以肯定的是，在规模化公司内部，只要你愿意，我就感觉很擅长，而且我应该永远这样做。
Somebody's going to show up and be like, okay, it's not a house.
有人会出现并说，好吧，这不是房子。
It's a neighborhood.
这是一个街区。
And you need to take this house that's kind of half built and you're going to pass it off to this other person that we just hired.
你需要拿下这栋半建的房子，然后把它交给我们刚刚雇用的另一个人。
And you are going to go build dog parks and streets and other things that are entirely unhouse-like.
你要去建造狗公园、街道和其他完全不像房子的东西。
And what happens when someone does that to you is you're like, wait a minute.
当有人对你这样做时会发生什么，你会说，等一下。
First of all, I'm not done with this house.
首先，我还没有完成这个房子。
And I'm worried that this person's going to screw it up.
我担心这个人会把事情搞砸。
Molly Graham: I'm also worried that building houses is actually the most fun thing and that I'm going to give the Legos to that person and they're going to have all the fun work and I'm going to hate building dog parks.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我还担心建造房屋实际上是最有趣的事情，我会把乐高积木送给那个人，他们会做所有有趣的工作，而我会讨厌建造狗公园。
Or that dog parks are irrelevant eventually and it's going to turn out we're in the house building business.
或者狗公园最终变得无关紧要，结果我们会从事房屋建筑行业。
So there's this incredible set of emotions that come territorialistic, paired with excitement.
因此，这一系列令人难以置信的情绪伴随着兴奋而而来。
Fear paired with joy.
恐惧与喜悦并存。
But eventually you pass the house off and then you go work on neighborhoods and you're sort of like, okay, dog parks, I'm good at dog parks.
但最终你放弃了房子，然后你去社区工作，你有点像，好吧，狗公园，我擅长狗公园。
I got this.
我明白了。
And then again, you get to the like, I'm great.
然后，你又会说，我很棒。
I was put on earth to build neighborhoods.
我来到地球是为了建造社区。
And immediately someone shows up and says, it's not a neighborhood.
立即有人出现并说，这不是一个社区。
It's a country or a city or a world.
这是一个国家，一个城市，或者一个世界。
And it just goes on and on and on.
它就这样一直持续下去。
Molly Graham: And for me, learning this muscle of both learning to give away what you've gotten good at and move on to the next shiny pile of Legos.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：对我来说，学习这种肌肉既要学会放弃你所擅长的东西，又要继续学习下一堆闪亮的乐高积木。
And learning that the emotions associated with that are inevitable.
并且了解到与之相关的情绪是不可避免的。
I've been doing this for 18, 20 years, I still get attacked by these emotions all the time, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't give them away and move on to the next thing.
我这样做已经有 18、20 年了，我仍然时常受到这些情绪的攻击，但这并不意味着你不应该放弃它们并继续做下一件事。
Molly Graham: That is both the torment of scaling companies, which is that the ground is moving under your feet.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：这既是规模化公司的痛苦，也是你脚下的土地在移动。
And as soon as you're comfortable, someone will make sure that you are uncomfortable, but it's also the opportunity, which is that you can go from being someone that's good at building houses to someone that knows how to build entire worlds.
一旦你感觉舒服了，就会有人让你感到不舒服，但这也是一个机会，你可以从一个擅长建造房屋的人变成一个知道如何建造整个世界的人。
And that is where the Legos metaphor came from.
这就是乐高积木比喻的由来。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is such a good metaphor.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的比喻。
And if you've gone through this, you so understand what this is like and what...
如果你经历过这一切，你就会明白这是什么样的以及......
And also just the Legos is metaphor is so good for the different things you build.
而且乐高积木对于你建造的不同东西来说也是非常有用的。
Molly Graham: I have a very weird brain that for some odd reason just always thinks in metaphors.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我有一个非常奇怪的大脑，出于某种奇怪的原因，我总是用隐喻来思考。
Molly Graham: So it showed up when I was...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以当我……的时候它就出现了。
At Facebook in particular, I would find that every so often I would have to have what I called a Legos talk with someone where I would just see them start to ask these questions like, why are we hiring that person?
特别是在 Facebook，我发现我经常需要与某人进行所谓的乐高对话，我会看到他们开始问这些问题，比如，我们为什么要雇用那个人？
Or what's that team even do?
或者说那个团队到底是做什么的？
And I was like, okay, we need to have the chat about the Legos.
我当时想，好吧，我们需要谈谈乐高积木。
And then eventually it turned into an article and a whole thing.
然后最终它变成了一篇文章和一整件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: A whole thing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：整件事。
And just to be clear, the advice is give away your Legos, this is actually the path to a successful career.
需要明确的是，建议是赠送你的乐高积木，这实际上是通往成功职业生涯的道路。
Molly Graham: I have watched a lot of people over many years struggle with feeling like they should hang on to the thing that they've been good at.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：多年来，我看到很多人都在挣扎，觉得自己应该坚持自己擅长的事情。
And it almost always...
而且几乎总是...
Because, you know, essentially the nature of a scaling company is that the Lego pile is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger however fast that graph is going up into the right.
因为，你知道，规模化公司的本质就是乐高积木越来越大，无论图表向右上升的速度有多快。
I always say that's the graph of how fast your business is growing.
我总是说这就是您的业务增长速度的图表。
It's the graph of how fast your company is expanding.
这是您公司扩张速度的图表。
And it's the graph of how fast your job is getting bigger.
这是一张图表，显示你的工作规模扩大的速度有多快。
That means that if you actually just stay and build houses, eventually you're literally buried under a pile of Legos.
这意味着，如果你真的只是留下来建造房屋，最终你实际上会被埋在一堆乐高积木下。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
You held onto something that's down here and the opportunity is actually to stay on top of that pile and to learn to just give away your job every so often.
你抓住了下面的一些东西，而机会实际上是保持在这堆东西的顶端，并学会时不时地放弃你的工作。
Molly Graham: At Facebook, I got to a place where I was literally giving away my job every three weeks.
Molly Graham：在 Facebook，我几乎每三周就放弃自己的工作。
I was constantly rehiring myself essentially because you have to sort of grow as fast as your company is growing if you really want to take advantage of the opportunity that comes with companies that are growing and changing quickly.
我不断地重新雇用自己，本质上是因为如果你真的想利用快速成长和变化的公司所带来的机会，你就必须像你的公司一样快速成长。
Lenny Rachitsky: So people are hearing this, they're like, okay, my rational brain's like, I should give away my Legos.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以人们听到这个，他们就像，好吧，我的理性大脑就像，我应该放弃我的乐高积木。
It'll help me.
它会帮助我。
It'll be good for my career.
这对我的职业生涯会有好处。
In real life, it's very hard to actually do.
在现实生活中，真正做到这一点非常困难。
To give away this empire that you've built, this team that you've built.
放弃你建立的这个帝国，你建立的这个团队。
This project that you're like, oh, this is going to be my thing.
你喜欢的这个项目，哦，这将是我的事。
I know you have a really fun, useful tool to help people deal with that kind of irrational part of their brain.
我知道你们有一个非常有趣、有用的工具来帮助人们处理大脑中的这种非理性部分。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Molly Graham: So like I said, my brain works in weird metaphors.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：就像我说的，我的大脑以奇怪的隐喻运作。
It's a weird brain.
这是一个奇怪的大脑。
I was raised on The Muppets, and I like to think that this one came from, I guess, growing up watching weird animals.
我是在《布偶》中长大的，我想，我喜欢认为这部剧是在看着奇怪的动物长大的。
But basically, at some point I realized that this emotional rollercoaster that comes with scaling, with growing.
但基本上，在某个时刻我意识到这种情绪的过山车伴随着扩展和成长。
With going through change, any kind of change.
经历变化，任何形式的变化。
People feel that.
人们有这样的感觉。
Was never going to go away.
永远不会消失。
And that no matter how good I got...
而且无论我成绩有多好...
Sometimes I think it gets worse the more senior you get, actually.
事实上，有时我认为你的级别越高，情况就会变得更糟。
Because you sort of feel like you're supposed to know what you're doing, and then you just get attacked by this monster that's like, who even gave you this job in the first place?
因为你觉得你应该知道自己在做什么，然后你就被这个怪物攻击了，就像，谁一开始就给了你这份工作？
So basically I externalized all these emotions that come with change into this little tiny monster.
所以基本上我将所有这些伴随变化而来的情绪外化到这个小怪物中。
I named my monster, Bob.
我给我的怪物命名为鲍勃。
Your monster can be named whatever you want him to be named or her or them.
你的怪物可以被命名为任何你想要的名字，他或她或他们。
Molly Graham: And Bob's job...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：还有鲍勃的工作……
I like to think his job is basically to make me the worst version of myself.
我喜欢认为他的工作基本上就是让我成为最糟糕的自己。
He's the one that's like, oh, that person took all the fun Legos and you should go push them over and grab them back.
他就是这样的人，哦，那个人拿走了所有有趣的乐高积木，你应该把它们推倒并把它们抓回来。
Bob's job is...
鲍勃的工作是...
Bob's the one that wants to send the rage emails at 9:00PM and burn the house down.
鲍勃想要在晚上 9:00 发送愤怒电子邮件并烧毁房子。
And the thing to learn about Bob is that, like I said, Bob never goes away.
关于鲍勃，需要了解的是，正如我所说，鲍勃永远不会消失。
Bob is someone that you have to learn to deal with.
鲍勃是一个你必须学会与之打交道的人。
But Bob's job is to make you the worst version of yourself.
但鲍勃的工作就是让你成为最糟糕的自己。
So your job is to let Bob do his thing, but not act on the emotions.
所以你的工作是让鲍勃做他的事情，但不要凭情绪行事。
Basically, all these emotions are normal and they are not useful.
基本上，所有这些情绪都是正常的，没有什么用处。
They are not the compass that should be telling you what to do.
它们不是应该告诉您该做什么的指南针。
Molly Graham: But the other rule I have for managing Bob is a lot of people are like, oh, you're feeling off or tired or whatever.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：但我管理鲍勃的另一条规则是，很多人都会说，哦，你感觉不舒服或疲倦或其他什么。
Go to bed and wake up tomorrow morning and you'll feel better.
上床睡觉，明天早上醒来，你会感觉好一些。
And the truth is that you're like, I want to send the rage email at 9:00PM.
事实上，您可能会想，我想在晚上 9:00 发送愤怒电子邮件。
You still want to send it at 8:00AM.
您仍想在上午 8:00 发送。
And a lot of these emotions just do not go away in 24 hours.
而且很多这样的情绪不会在 24 小时内消失。
So my rule of thumb from Facebook was give it two weeks.
所以我在 Facebook 的经验法则是给两周时间。
And the emotional, the sort of Bob...
还有鲍勃那样的情感……
Bob is like these waves and they just roll through.
鲍勃就像这些波浪，它们只是滚滚而过。
So you made a new hire or somebody came in or you got layered or whatever.
所以你雇佣了一个新员工，或者有人进来，或者你进行了分层等等。
You'll have a set of reactions.
你会有一系列的反应。
And those reactions, again, they're normal, but they're not useful.
再说一遍，这些反应很正常，但没有用。
They're not the ones that you should listen to.
他们不是你应该听的人。
They are Bob.
他们是鲍勃.
Molly Graham: And typically they go away in a couple of days, you get something new.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：通常他们会在几天内消失，你会得到一些新的东西。
Some new wave.
一些新浪潮。
But anything that lasts longer than two weeks is actually something you should pay attention to.
但任何持续超过两周的事情实际上都是你应该注意的。
It's something that if it's been around for two weeks, it's something you should go talk to someone about.
如果它已经存在两周了，你就应该去和别人谈谈。
Whether it's a manager or a friend or a coach or someone like that.
无论是经理、朋友、教练还是类似的人。
That's the real stuff.
这才是真正的东西。
Everything else is just Bob.
其他一切都只是鲍勃。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a rule of thumb for when it actually, when you shouldn't give away your Legos?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有什么经验法则告诉你什么时候不应该放弃你的乐高积木？
When it's like, okay, maybe you should fight back on this layering or whatever.
当它就像，好吧，也许你应该反击这种分层或其他什么。
Molly Graham: No rule of thumb.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：没有经验法则。
In general, I would actually say embracing change is far better than fighting it.
总的来说，我实际上会说拥抱变化远比对抗变化要好。
And almost invariably, you cannot see what is around the corner, but it is almost always the thing to focus on.
几乎总是，你看不到拐角处有什么，但它几乎总是值得关注的事情。
A lot of times I think inside of change, we get focused on the past, and one of the most valuable things you can do as a manager and a leader is help people focus on the future.
很多时候，我认为在变革中，我们会关注过去，而作为经理和领导者，你可以做的最有价值的事情之一就是帮助人们关注未来。
I think...
我认为...
I'm sure there are times when people have done it and regretted it and it has led them somewhere.
我确信有些时候人们做了这件事并后悔了，这已经把他们带到了某个地方。
Molly Graham: I think being layered, for example, is one of the hardest things for people inside these experiences where someone brings in a manager above you.
莫莉·格雷厄姆（Molly Graham）：我认为，对于那些经历过这种经历的人来说，分层是最困难的事情之一，因为有人引入了比你更高的经理。
And I've also seen so many stories of that ending up being a great thing for someone.
我也见过很多这样的故事，这些故事最终对某人来说是一件伟大的事情。
Even though they couldn't see it at the time.
尽管他们当时看不到。
So in general, I would just say, step into the future and let the past go and see what you're going to learn.
所以总的来说，我只想说，走进未来，让过去过去，看看你会学到什么。
And sometimes you'll learn that it's time to leave or that this isn't the right pile of Legos for you.
有时你会发现是时候离开了，或者这堆乐高积木不适合你。
But it'll end up taking you somewhere that's worth exploring.
但它最终会带你去一个值得探索的地方。
Holding onto things almost always leads us to the worst version of ourselves.
坚持某些事情几乎总是会让我们变成最糟糕的自己。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a very Buddhist way of thinking too.
Lenny Rachitsky：这也是一种非常佛教的思维方式。
Just don't cling.
只是不要粘着。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And I think another part of this metaphor, I don't know if you think of it this way.
我认为这个比喻的另一部分，我不知道你是否这样认为。
Is the Legos aren't even your Legos, right?
乐高积木甚至都不是你的乐高积木，对吗？
They're like the CEO's Legos, the shareholders' Legos.
它们就像首席执行官的乐高积木、股东的乐高积木。
So you think they're your Legos, but no, you're not in charge.
所以你认为它们是你的乐高积木，但不，你不是负责人。
Molly Graham: Well, it is...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：嗯，这是……
I will say one of the hard-earned things is it can feel very emotional and it can feel very personal.
我要说的是来之不易的事情之一是它可以让人感觉非常情绪化并且感觉非常个人化。
It can feel like your work...
感觉就像你的工作...
I don't know, it can feel like your life is on the line sometimes.
我不知道，有时感觉就像你的生命处于危险之中。
Just your work life.
只是你的工作生活。
Oh, gosh, this matters so much.
哦，天哪，这太重要了。
And one of the things that you learn as you get more senior and just have seen stuff is it's going to be okay.
当你变得更高级并看到一些东西时，你学到的一件事是，一切都会好起来的。
A friend of mine says, careers are long and nobody tells you that.
我的一个朋友说，职业生涯是漫长的，但没有人告诉你这一点。
But they're long.
但它们很长。
And this moment feels so dire and it feels so hard and it feels scary and it's going to be okay.
这一刻感觉如此可怕、如此艰难、如此可怕，但一切都会好起来的。
So yeah, it is hard to know in the moment.
所以是的，目前很难知道。
And I think the story is going to be long and this is going to be one chapter or maybe even a part of a chapter, not a whole chapter.
我认为这个故事会很长，这将是一章，甚至可能是一章的一部分，而不是一整章。
So embrace the length.
所以拥抱长度。
Lenny Rachitsky: To build on that point, I've realized this is my fourth career doing what I do now.
Lenny Rachitsky：在此基础上，我意识到这是我现在所做的第四个职业生涯。
Whatever the hell this is.
不管这是什么鬼。
I was a engineer and then I was a founder.
我是一名工程师，然后是一名创始人。
Then I was a product manager, and then what the hell I do now.
然后我是一名产品经理，然后我现在做什么。
Whatever this is, that's a whole different path.
不管这是什么，那都是一条完全不同的道路。
Molly Graham: You don't have a name for it yet, Lenny?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：你还没有给它起个名字吗，莱尼？
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我不这么认为。
I hate all the terms people use for this world.
我讨厌人们对这个世界使用的所有术语。
Molly Graham: Somebody called me an influencer and I almost ripped their face off.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：有人称我为影响者，我差点撕掉他们的脸。
Molly Graham: Yeah, man.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，伙计。
The most interesting careers are winding and they have starts and stops and failures and successes and control.
最有趣的职业生涯都是曲折的，有开始、停止、失败、成功和控制。
Anybody that's been through a lot of this stuff, control is usually not the name of the game.
任何经历过很多这样的事情的人，控制通常不是游戏的名称。
It's usually just like, "Let's see what happens.
通常就像是，“让我们看看会发生什么。
We're going to try this and we're going to see what happens next."
我们将尝试这个，然后看看接下来会发生什么。”
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a great segue to another framework that I've heard from folks you've worked with that have been really impactful on them.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是对另一个框架的一个很好的延续，我从与你共事过的人那里听说过这个框架对他们产生了真正的影响。
So, Sarah Caldwell, who's a big deal at OpenAI, she told me that the framework that helped her most in her career is something that you call the J-Curve versus Stairs career growth framework.
OpenAI 的重要人物 Sarah Caldwell 告诉我，在她的职业生涯中对她帮助最大的框架就是所谓的 J 曲线与阶梯职业发展框架。
Talk about what that's about.
谈谈那是关于什么的。
Molly Graham: I actually gave a TED Talk about this one a couple of years ago because I am so passionate about it, but you can listen to the very packaged eight-minute version of this, but I will tell you the real story because it's very relevant to a lot of folks that listen to your podcast.
Molly Graham：实际上，几年前我在 TED 上做过一次关于这个问题的演讲，因为我对此非常感兴趣，但你可以听一下这个非常打包的八分钟版本，但我会告诉你真实的故事，因为它与很多听你播客的人非常相关。
I was at Facebook for five years.
我在 Facebook 工作了五年。
Like I said, the first two years I was in HR and I was doing employment branding and culture work and I was ready to stay there.
就像我说的，我在人力资源部门工作的头两年，我从事就业品牌和文化工作，我准备留在那里。
I think I had in my head I was going to stay there until we went public, that was my plan just because I wanted to help the company through that moment, again, in my head.
我想我会一直留在那里直到我们上市，这就是我的计划，因为我想再次帮助公司度过那一刻。
Molly Graham: This guy that many people know, Chamath Palihapitiya, came to me and Chamath ran growth and mobile at the time.
Molly Graham：这个很多人都认识的人 Chamath Palihapitiya 来找我，Chamath 当时负责增长和移动业务。
And he came to me and we had lunch and he said in his very Chamath way, "You're useless.
他来找我，我们一起吃午饭，他用他特有的查马斯方式说：“你没用。
What are you doing in HR?
你在HR做什么？
This is stupid.
这太愚蠢了。
You should come work for me." And anybody that knows Chamath is like, "Yes, that is actually what he said." He managed to insult you and compliment you in one sentence.
你应该来为我工作。”任何了解查马斯的人都会说：“是的，他确实是这么说的。”他用一句话侮辱了你，又夸奖了你。
Molly Graham: He gave me all these options on his team.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：他在他的团队中给了我所有这些选择。
And then the last one he said to me was like, "I'm going to go build a mobile phone.
然后他对我说的最后一句话是：“我要去制造一部手机。
Do you want to come do that with me?" And I had four simultaneous reactions.
你愿意来和我一起做这件事吗？”我同时有四个反应。
The first was like, " That is incredibly stupid.
第一个是，“这太愚蠢了。
Why are we doing that?" And then it was like, "Is that actually a thing that we're doing?" And then it was like, "Whoa, I think that sounds kind of fun." And so I left the conversation at Chamath and I went and asked my boss, Lori Goler, who's the head of people at Facebook for a very long time, like, "Is this actually something we're doing?" And she was like, "I can't believe he offered you that, whatever."
我们为什么要这么做？”然后就好像，“这真的是我们正在做的事情吗？”然后就像是，“哇，我觉得这听起来很有趣。”于是我结束了在 Chamath 的谈话，然后去问我的老板 Lori Goler（他在 Facebook 工作了很长一段时间），“这真的是我们正在做的事情吗？”她说，“我不敢相信他给了你这个，无论如何。”
Molly Graham: And I basically just could not get it out of my head, but it didn't make any sense, A, that Chamath had asked me because I was in HR.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我基本上就是无法把它从我的脑海中抹去，但是查马斯因为我在人力资源部门而问我，这没有任何意义。
Like, "What am I doing?
就像，“我在做什么？
I don't absolutely jack shit about mobile." But I had worked on a project with him and I guess he thought I was smart.
我绝对不喜欢移动设备。”但我和他一起做过一个项目，我猜他认为我很聪明。
And I talked to Cheryl and she was like, "Well, that project will be dead in two months, but you can do it because you'll still have a job here." My dad was like, "Well, don't do that.
我和谢丽尔谈过，她说，“好吧，这个项目将在两个月内结束，但你可以做到，因为你仍然在这里有工作。”我爸爸说：“好吧，别这样做。
" And anyway, a lot of very wise people being like, "Don't do that."
”无论如何，很多非常聪明的人都会说，“不要这样做。”
Molly Graham: But I kind of couldn't get out of my head.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：但我有点无法摆脱我的脑海。
And my friend said to me, "You've proven you're really good at this sort of company-wide project management and HR.
我的朋友对我说：“你已经证明你真的很擅长这种全公司范围的项目管理和人力资源。
Why don't you go show yourself how actually good you are?
你为什么不去证明自己有多优秀呢？
Is this transferable?" So, I took the job and I spent the next six months feeling like an absolute idiot.
这个可以转让吗？”所以，我接受了这份工作，在接下来的六个月里我感觉自己像个十足的白痴。
I basically felt like a total jackass all the time.
我基本上一直感觉自己像个彻头彻尾的混蛋。
I was sitting in rooms with these brilliant people asking the dumbest questions of my life and at the end of the six months, Chamath, I think, took a lot of pride in giving me the lowest performance rating I've ever gotten in my life, and it just felt like falling off a cliff.
我坐在房间里，和这些才华横溢的人一起问我一生中最愚蠢的问题，在六个月结束时，我想，查马斯非常自豪地给了我一生中得到的最低绩效评级，感觉就像从悬崖上掉了下来。
Then, slowly, I remember I had been doing all these trips to Taiwan because we were actually working on hardware and I, at some point, came back from Taiwan and I drew on a whiteboard for him the layout of a mobile phone and trying to explain to him why something he wanted to do was not possible.
然后，慢慢地，我记起我一直去台湾旅行，因为我们实际上正在研究硬件，而我在某个时候从台湾回来，我在白板上为他画了手机的布局，并试图向他解释为什么他想做的事情是不可能的。
I so vividly remember walking out of that meeting being like, "Oh, I actually know things." And slowly then, over the following three years, I became an expert in mobile.
我清楚地记得，当我走出那次会议时，我的感觉是：“哦，我真的知道一些事情。”慢慢地，在接下来的三年里，我成为了移动领域的专家。
And I basically...
而我基本上...
The phone itself was a giant failure, massive, costly failure for Facebook, but it was not a failure for me.
这款手机本身就是一次巨大的失败，对 Facebook 来说是一次巨大的、代价高昂的失败，但对我来说并不是一次失败。
It was a huge job that taught me that I was capable of things that I never could have dreamed of if I had stayed in HR.
这是一项艰巨的工作，它让我认识到，如果我留在人力资源部门，我有能力做一些我永远无法想象的事情。
It set me up to be capable of taking on things that I didn't know about.
它让我有能力承担我不知道的事情。
Molly Graham: Chamath, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：查马斯向我推荐这份工作时，实际上在白板上给我画了一张图。
He said, "Look, you can stay..." The way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs.
他说，“看，你可以留下来……”很多人的职业生涯就是一套楼梯。
"You can be boring." To use Chamath, "And stay on these stairs.
“你可能很无聊。”用查马斯的话来说，“留在这些楼梯上。
Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years and your title will change from manager to senior manager to director to senior director, whatever." And he was like, "But that is boring." And he's like, "The much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs." Basically, that you jump off this thing and you do fall for a period of time.
只要走上楼梯，你每两年就会升职一次，你的头衔也会从经理变为高级经理，再变为总监，再变为高级总监，等等。”他说：“但这很无聊。”他说，“更有趣的职业就像跳下悬崖。”基本上，你从这个东西上跳下来，你确实会跌倒一段时间。
I always like to say it's about six to nine months, but then this thing happens where you climb out.
我总是喜欢说大约六到九个月，但是当你爬出来的时候就会发生这种事情。
Molly Graham: And the picture he drew had this J-curve sort of basically leading you to places that are way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：他画的图画有一条 J 形曲线，基本上会引导你到达楼梯无法到达的地方。
And to be totally honest, that has been my experience.
说实话，这就是我的经历。
That taking risks, accepting the sort of terrible fall and that experience of falling has been more than worth it.
承担风险、接受那种可怕的跌倒和跌倒的经历是非常值得的。
Part of the reason why Sarah mentions it is that I do give this sort of talk to people that are inside of really fast-growing companies, because it's such an important place to let go of Legos and jump off cliffs because there's so much opportunity.
莎拉提到这一点的部分原因是，我确实对快速发展的公司内部的人进行了此类演讲，因为这是一个放弃乐高积木并跳下悬崖的重要场所，因为那里有太多的机会。
And it is a place where if you prove to people that you're actually good, if they believe that you are the kind of person that they can use to do lots of things, you can get these opportunities that you are just so deeply unqualified for, but they can take you to places that you could never have imagined.
在这个地方，如果你向人们证明你实际上很优秀，如果他们相信你是那种可以做很多事情的人，你就可以获得这些你根本不具备资格的机会，但它们可以带你到你从未想象过的地方。
Molly Graham: You can come out of those companies with skills that no one would ever have reasonably hired you to do.
莫莉·格雷厄姆（Molly Graham）：从这些公司出来的时候，你所拥有的技能是没有人会合理雇用你去做的。
But I ended my time at Facebook in product and did business development and hardware and a whole bunch of the stuff along the way.
但我在 Facebook 的产品工作结束了，转而从事业务开发和硬件以及一路上的一大堆工作。
And again, nobody would've hired me to do that at the beginning, but it's just because I kept saying yes to things.
再说一次，一开始没有人会雇用我来做这件事，但这只是因为我一直对事情说“是”。
Lenny Rachitsky: Molly, I got tingles listening to this story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：莫莉，听这个故事我感到一阵刺痛。
Wow.
哇。
Molly Graham: Does it sound familiar, Lenny?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：莱尼，这听起来熟悉吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: It does.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：确实如此。
I want to ask, jumping off a cliff, sometimes you fall, really fall and you keep falling.
我想问，跳下悬崖，有时会摔倒，真的摔倒，而且一直摔下去。
Are there any kind of traits of like, "Okay, this is one that might be a J-Curve and worth the risk of falling, and this is when you should probably just not, let's not do this".
是否有任何类似的特征，“好吧，这可能是 J 曲线，值得冒跌倒的风险，而此时你可能不应该这样做，我们不要这样做”。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
I just think there are different kinds of fear.
我只是认为恐惧有不同的种类。
We talk a lot about this in Glue Club because one of the thing, there is a financial fear, right?
我们在胶水俱乐部谈论了很多这个问题，因为其中之一就是经济上的恐惧，对吧？
Leaving a job and taking a job that has financial risk associated with it, or leaving a job and taking time off, which is something that I spend a lot of time talking to people about, you got to do the math and you got to...
离开工作并接受与之相关的财务风险的工作，或者离开工作并休假，这是我花了很多时间与人们谈论的事情，你必须做数学计算，你必须......
Sometimes there is a type of fear that is telling you like, "This is not the right time." Or, "I don't want to be financially anxious for months and months and months."
有时，有一种恐惧会告诉你，“现在不是正确的时间。”或者，“我不想连续几个月在经济上感到焦虑。”
Molly Graham: I use finances because it's the most concrete example of a type of fear that you should actually listen to.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我使用财务是因为它是一种恐惧的最具体的例子，你应该真正倾听。
And sometimes you can do the math.
有时你可以做数学计算。
I always counsel people through that.
我总是通过这个建议人们。
I'm like, "What is the number that you need to hit so that you're not constantly terrified financially?" And that number is wildly different for people based on their background and their life.
我想，“你需要达到多少数字，这样你才不会一直在经济上感到恐惧？”对于不同背景和生活的人来说，这个数字有很大不同。
"Can you do that?
“你能做到吗？
Can you consult, can you whatever in order to take this leap?" But a lot of times fear is just you saying, "I'm scared I can't do this.
为了迈出这一步，你能咨询一下吗？”但很多时候恐惧只是你说：“我害怕我做不到。
I'm scared I'm not capable of it.
我害怕我没有能力。
Yeah, I'm scared I'll fail."
是的，我害怕我会失败。”
Molly Graham: And that's the kind of fear that I think of as a flashing green light because...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我将这种恐惧视为闪烁的绿灯，因为……
And it sounds like Matt McGinnis said this too, where it's like, "That's the kind of fear that's saying, 'Why don't you go prove to yourself that you are actually capable of this?'" Or if you fail, like, "You'll have learned something, too." You know what I mean?
听起来马特·麦金尼斯也说过这句话，就像是，“这就是一种恐惧，‘你为什么不去向自己证明你确实有能力做到这一点？’”或者如果你失败了，就像，“你也会学到一些东西。”你知道我的意思？
You'll have learned, like, "I took this job in product at Facebook as my last chapter there, and let me tell you things that people should never fucking hire me to do." I was like, "I am not a good product manager." But I've got a great product mindset.
你会学到，比如，“我把 Facebook 的产品工作作为我在那里的最后一章，让我告诉你人们永远不应该雇佣我做的事情。”我当时想，“我不是一个好的产品经理。”但我有很好的产品心态。
I can sit in a bunch of chairs and hang with the product folks, but I'm not the person that cares about the button.
我可以坐在一堆椅子上和产品人员一起闲逛，但我不是那个关心按钮的人。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Molly Graham: And I would never have learned that.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我永远不会知道这一点。
I wouldn't have known who I was if I hadn't taken that risk and failed or at least learned that it's not something I wanted to do again.
如果我没有冒这个风险并失败，或者至少知道这不是我想再做的事情，我就不会知道我是谁。
So, there's many different lessons that come from facing down those fears and jumping off the cliff, but mostly what it is is knowing yourself better and knowing where you go next from there.
因此，面对这些恐惧和跳下悬崖，我们可以得到很多不同的教训，但最重要的是更好地了解自己，并知道下一步该去哪里。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is such helpful advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常有用的建议。
I also love how you frame this of, "Prove it to yourself that you can do this." It's not, "I'm going to show them that I can do this." Because the way you describe this, usually it's an opportunity given to you.
我也喜欢你这样表述：“向自己证明你可以做到这一点。”这不是“我要向他们展示我可以做到这一点”。因为按照你的描述，这通常是给你的一个机会。
"Hey, can you do this thing?
“嘿嘿，这件事你能做吗？
We want you to lead this new thing." And the fear is like, "I don't think I can do that." And what you're saying here is, "Prove it to yourself that you can." Or, I guess, it's also, "Okay, maybe I can't and then I'll learn that and then I'll know more about myself."
我们希望你领导这个新事物。”恐惧就像是“我认为我做不到”。你在这里所说的是，“向自己证明你可以。”或者，我想，这也是，“好吧，也许我不能，然后我会学习这一点，然后我会更多地了解自己。”
Molly Graham: Yeah, exactly.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，完全正确。
I mean, one of the greatest gifts in a career is knowing yourself.
我的意思是，职业生涯中最伟大的礼物之一就是了解自己。
And that's a lifelong journey because who you are and what you want changes, but that knowledge and that gift, nothing accelerates your self-knowledge faster than trying to do something that you don't know how to do and that you're scared of.
这是一个终生的旅程，因为你是谁，你想要什么都会改变，但知识和天赋，没有什么比尝试做一些你不知道怎么做和你害怕的事情更快地加速你的自我认识了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Probably the quote I use most on this podcast comes up again in my mind as you talk about this, this line that, "The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek."
Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈论这个问题时，我在这个播客中最常使用的引言可能会再次出现在我的脑海中，这句话是“你害怕的洞穴里蕴藏着你寻找的宝藏”。
Molly Graham: I haven't heard that one from you, so clearly I need to listen more.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我还没有听到你说过这样的话，所以显然我需要多听听。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that's great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，那太好了。
I'm glad I don't overuse it.
我很高兴我没有过度使用它。
It just feels like it comes up again and again, and I think your point about the runway and the finances is such an important one because that's a very real practical question.
感觉就像它一次又一次地出现，我认为你关于跑道和财务的观点非常重要，因为这是一个非常现实的实际问题。
One thing I did when I took time off, I took a year off after I left my job.
当我休假时我做了一件事，我在离职后休息了一年。
What helped me was I just created a runway goal for myself.
对我有帮助的是我刚刚为自己制定了一个跑道目标。
I'm just like, "Okay, here's what it's going to cost me for six months or a year to live without any income.
我只是想，“好吧，这就是我在没有任何收入的情况下生活六个月或一年的费用。
Am I comfortable just burning through these tens of thousands of dollars to explore and see something new emerge?" And so you just have to feel good.
我愿意花掉这数万美元来探索并看到新事物的出现吗？”所以你只需要感觉良好即可。
"Okay, yes, I'm going to burn all that money and that's part of it."
“好吧，是的，我会烧掉所有的钱，这就是其中的一部分。”
Molly Graham: Yeah, that's exactly the exercise.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，这正是练习。
You're saying "runway" I say "burn rate", so we both were raised inside of companies, incentive tech, but I think it is do the math, right?
你说的是“跑道”，我说的是“烧钱率”，所以我们都是在公司内部长大的，激励技术，但我认为这是做数学计算，对吧？
What can you afford?
你能买得起什么？
And it's both what can you afford and still feel safe?
这既是你能负担得起的，又能让你感到安全吗？
Because sometimes, I mean, again, I think that is different for everyone, but it is such an important set of math to do because, A, a lot of times that number is smaller than you think it is, then your brain makes it out to be if you have this sort of existential financial anxiety versus, I always say, "Specific financial anxiety is much more useful than existential financial anxiety." And some friends are leaving jobs and I'll be like, "Hey, your number is 5K or 10K a month.
因为有时，我的意思是，我认为这对每个人来说都是不同的，但这是一组非常重要的数学要做，因为，A，很多时候这个数字比你想象的要小，然后你的大脑就会认为，如果你有这种存在性的财务焦虑，而不是我总是说的，“特定的财务焦虑比存在性的财务焦虑有用得多。”有些朋友要离职了，我会说，“嘿，你的数字是每月 5K 或 10K。
You have to believe that you can get a consulting gig that will pay you that.
你必须相信你可以获得一份能够支付你报酬的咨询工作。
Do you believe that?" And it's like, "Either yes or no." And then, "Okay, either we're doing it or we're not.
你相信吗？”就像“要么是，要么不是”。然后，“好吧，我们要么做，要么不做。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other part of this J- Curve that I think is really important to touch on is this idea of for the first six or nine months, you're going to be at the bottom of the J curve falling, still falling.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为 J 曲线的另一部分非常重要，那就是在前六到九个月里，你将处于 J 曲线的底部，不断下降。
And some projects don't last that long and then you're like, "Okay, total failure.
有些项目不会持续那么久，然后你就会想，“好吧，彻底失败了。
I never emerged from this fall." So, is there any advice there?
我从未从这个秋天中走出来。”那么，有什么建议吗？
Just, how do you create that enough space to give you a chance to start to un-fall?
只是，你如何创造足够的空间让你有机会开始跌倒？
Molly Graham: I mean, the most valuable thing that happens as you fall is learning.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我的意思是，当你跌倒时发生的最有价值的事情就是学习。
And even on the other side of failure, you've learned a shit ton.
即使在失败的另一面，你也学到了很多东西。
I always say, "The most important thing to do in the falling phase and the risk taking land is to learn to embrace being a professional idiot." Basically, being the one that shows up at the meeting and is like, "What are we talking about?
我总是说，“在跌倒阶段和冒险阶段要做的最重要的事情就是学会接受成为一个职业白痴。”基本上，作为那个出现在会议上的人，就像是，“我们在谈论什么？
What does that word mean?"
这个词是什么意思？”
Molly Graham: For a bunch of reasons.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：有很多原因。
Number one, you can learn so much.
第一，你可以学到很多东西。
And again, even in the face of failure, no one can take away your learning.
再说一次，即使面对失败，没有人可以夺走你的学习成果。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
But the other thing is that it turns out that a lot of the questions in the world that, you're sitting in the meeting and you're like, "This is a dumb question.
但另一件事是，事实证明，世界上有很多问题，当你坐在会议上时，你会想，“这是一个愚蠢的问题。
Everyone's going to think I'm an idiot." But then you get brave and you ask it and it turns out it wasn't a dumb question.
每个人都会认为我是个白痴。”但是当你变得勇敢并提出这个问题时，事实证明这不是一个愚蠢的问题。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Turns out that everyone had that question in their mind, but no one was brave enough to ask it.
原来每个人心里都有这个疑问，但却没有人敢于问出来。
Molly Graham: So, from a skills' perspective, again, regardless of outcome, being the person that sort of takes their learning in their own hands, learning no matter what and learning to ask those dumb questions, it's a superpower.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以，从技能的角度来看，无论结果如何，成为一个将学习掌握在自己手中的人，无论发生什么都学习并学会问那些愚蠢的问题，这是一种超能力。
I always say that, "Actually, my superpower is being a professional moron." Because I'm the one that shows up in a room and is like, "Do we have goals?
我总是说，“事实上，我的超能力就是成为一个职业白痴。”因为我是那个出现在房间里的人，“我们有目标吗？
What are we doing?
我们在做什么？
Why are we talking about this?
我们为什么要谈论这个？
Why are we having this meeting?" And most of the time it's actually what I was hired to do, which is bring clarity.
我们为什么要开这个会议？”大多数时候，这实际上是我被雇来做的事情，那就是澄清问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
I just recorded a podcast episode with a PM named Zevi who joined Wix and he had this thought, he's like a very young PM, just getting started and he's like, "Okay, I need to be a 10X PM because that's what they expect of me, that's what everyone that is really good, that's how I think of a 10X PM." And then he went into his first meeting and he just failed and he just felt so bad.
我刚刚和一位加入 Wix 的 PM 录制了一集播客，他加入了 Wix，他有这样的想法，他就像一个非常年轻的 PM，刚刚开始，他会说，“好吧，我需要成为 10X PM，因为这是他们对我的期望，这就是每个真正优秀的人的期望，这就是我对 10X PM 的看法。”然后他参加了第一次会议，但他失败了，他感觉很糟糕。
He's like, "I guess I'm not that 10X PM.
他说，“我想我还没有那么 10X PM。
They're all going to see that.
他们都会看到这一点。
They think I'm terrible." And then he did another presentation a little bit later and people were so impressed with how he learned and evolved and improved.
他们认为我很糟糕。”稍后他又做了一次演讲，人们对他的学习、发展和进步印象深刻。
And he realized that he needs to be not a 10X PM, but a 10X learner, and that's what people actually expect from someone, especially a junior person.
他意识到，他需要的不是一个 10 倍的 PM，而是一个 10 倍的学习者，而这正是人们对某人（尤其是初级人员）的实际期望。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
Well, I was having a conversation last night with a friend of mine who has a senior in high school and I was like, "What is the plan?
嗯，昨晚我和一个有高中四年级的朋友聊天，我当时想，“计划是什么？
What are we telling this senior in high school to think about relative to their career given everything that's going on with AI?" And we talked about it a bunch, but what we both circled back to was this idea of soft skills and that actually the only thing you can really anchor on right now is that teaching kids grit, teaching them hard work, teaching them learning, right?
考虑到人工智能正在发生的一切，我们要告诉这位高中生相对于他们的职业生涯思考什么？”我们讨论了很多，但我们都回到了软技能的概念，实际上你现在唯一真正可以依靠的就是教孩子们坚韧，教他们努力工作，教他们学习，对吗？
Learning how to learn, loving learning, being able to fall, in a world that's changing this fast.
在这个瞬息万变的世界里，学会如何学习，热爱学习，能够跌倒。
And I say this inside of companies too, right?
我在公司内部也这么说，对吗？
I always say, like, "What you know today is way less valuable than what you can learn by tomorrow." If you're inside of a company where the growth curve is like this, what you know today is irrelevant.
我总是说，“你今天所知道的远不如你明天能学到的有价值。”如果你所在的公司的增长曲线是这样的，那么你今天所知道的就无关紧要了。
Molly Graham: Somebody once told...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：有人曾经告诉过……
I'm sure this is faster now, but they rewrote the entire code base at Google every eight years, which means that if you're not learning, if you're not evolving, then you become irrelevant and extinct.
我确信现在速度更快了，但他们每八年重写一次谷歌的整个代码库，这意味着如果你不学习，如果你不进化，那么你就会变得无关紧要并灭绝。
It's actually the whole underlying point of the Legos stuff is that evolution is the way you stay on top, and I think that's more true today than it's ever been.
事实上，乐高积木的整个基本要点是，进化是你保持领先地位的方式，我认为这在今天比以往任何时候都更加正确。
Lenny Rachitsky: And luckily, AI is really good at helping us learn.
Lenny Rachitsky：幸运的是，人工智能非常擅长帮助我们学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, that's good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：所以，这很好。
Thank you, AI.
谢谢你，艾伊。
And this actually comes up a bunch in the podcast.
这实际上在播客中出现了很多。
I ask a lot of AI-forward people what they're teaching their kids and curiosity is one of the main things people talk a lot about.
我问了很多人工智能前沿人士，他们正在教他们的孩子什么，好奇心是人们经常谈论的主要内容之一。
Just like, "Help them develop curiosity about the world."
就像“帮助他们培养对世界的好奇心”。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay.
好的。
I feel like I could be talking about this specific topic for a whole podcast episode, but I want to move on to a couple other frameworks that you've developed.
我觉得我可以在整个播客节目中讨论这个特定主题，但我想继续讨论您开发的其他几个框架。
One is something called a Waterline Model and another former colleague of here said, "This is the most impactful thing that they've learned from you on their career." So, talk about the Waterline Model.
其中一个是所谓的“水线模型”，这里的另一位前同事说：“这是他们从你那里学到的对他们职业生涯最有影响力的东西。”那么，谈谈水线模型。
Molly Graham: Okay.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Well, first of all, the Waterline Model is not mine.
好吧，首先，水线模型不是我的。
It's from some business book somewhere, but I actually learned it.
这是从某个商业书籍上摘下来的，但我确实学到了。
My first job out of college was leading wilderness trips.
我大学毕业后的第一份工作是带领荒野旅行。
I led 75-day wilderness trips in Patagonia and Alaska for a school called NOLS, the National Outdoor Leadership School.
我在巴塔哥尼亚和阿拉斯加带领一所名为 NOLS（国家户外领导力学校）的学校进行了 75 天的野外旅行。
NOLS basically teaches essentially leadership and communication skills to students.
NOLS 基本上向学生教授领导力和沟通技巧。
Molly Graham: I was mostly leading college age kids through wilderness expeditions.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我主要带领大学年龄的孩子进行荒野探险。
So, by having to lead a group of your peers that you don't know.
因此，必须领导一群你不认识的同事。
Anyway, the Waterline Model is something that we taught on NOLS.
无论如何，水线模型是我们在 NOLS 上教授的东西。
It's a really, really helpful model for understanding how to diagnose when something is not working on a team, so I teach it inside of Glue Club and I'll just quickly explain it.
这是一个非常非常有用的模型，可以帮助您理解如何诊断团队中出现问题的情况，所以我在 Glue Club 内部教授它，并且我会快速解释它。
Basically, the way to think about the Waterline Model is that a team is a boat and it's a boat on an ocean trying to get somewhere, getting somewhere is goals, right?
基本上，思考水线模型的方式是，团队是一艘船，它是一艘在海洋上试图到达某个地方的船，到达某个地方就是目标，对吗？
"What are we trying to build or ship or do?" Essentially, that is going to be harder or easier based on whatever the shape of the ocean is, right?
“我们想要建造、运输或做什么？”从本质上讲，无论海洋的形状如何，这都会变得更难或更容易，对吗？
If it's really choppy, it's harder, if it's smooth and calm, it's going to be easy to get to your goals.
如果事情真的很波涛汹涌，那就更难了，如果事情顺利平静，那就很容易实现你的目标。
Molly Graham: So, the Waterline basically asks the question like, "What is going on under the water?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以，《水线》基本上会问这样的问题：“水下发生了什么？
What is going on that's making it harder or easier to get to your goals?" And there's essentially four things underneath the water and they are in a descending order.
到底发生了什么事情让你更难或更容易实现目标？”水下基本上有四种东西，它们按降序排列。
The surface level is what's called structural things.
表面层就是所谓的结构性事物。
Basically, structural things are like goal setting, vision, roles, expectations, kind of the structures you put in place to make a team and a company and a business make sense, that touch every single member of the team.
基本上，结构性的东西就像目标设定、愿景、角色、期望，以及你为使团队、公司和业务有意义而建立的结构，这些结构触及团队的每一个成员。
Molly Graham: Right below that is something called dynamics, which is essentially how the team works together.
Molly Graham：就在它的下面，有一种叫做动态的东西，这本质上就是团队合作的方式。
It's culture, it's decision making, it's how we resolve conflict, all the sort of like interwoven pieces of how teams work together.
这是文化，是决策，是我们解决冲突的方式，所有这些都是团队如何合作的相互交织的部分。
And then below that is interpersonal, so basically relationships between two people and all the things that come with us being humans.
接下来是人际关系，基本上是两个人之间的关系以及我们作为人类所伴随的所有事物。
And then the bottom is intrapersonal, meaning within one person, challenges and issues there.
然后最底层是个人内部，即一个人内部的挑战和问题。
Molly Graham: The interesting thing about this model is that most people, when something's going wrong on a team, a lot of times we always go to the bottom.
Molly Graham：这个模型的有趣之处在于，大多数人，当团队出现问题时，很多时候我们总是会追根究底。
We go to the people.
我们走向人民。
We're like, "The people aren't getting along, that person's having a rough moment." We go to the humans, but the rule with the Waterline Model, which is very memorable, is you snorkel before you scuba.
我们会说，“人们相处不好，那个人过得很艰难。”我们去了人类，但是水线模型的规则是非常令人难忘的，那就是在水肺潜水之前先浮潜。
So, 80% of problems on teams actually happen because of structural issues or dynamics issues.
所以，团队中 80% 的问题实际上是由于结构问题或动力问题而发生的。
So, when there are problems on your team, where you start is at the top, you start structural issues.
因此，当你的团队出现问题时，你从高层开始，就会开始出现结构性问题。
Molly Graham: And one of my biggest things that I say all the time over and over again inside of Glue Club is, "Your only goal as a manager, if you do nothing else, is clear roles and clear expectations.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我在 Glue Club 里一遍又一遍地说的最重要的事情之一是，“作为一名经理，如果你不做其他事情，你唯一的目标就是明确的角色和明确的期望。
That's it." Because honestly, I've taken over a lot of teams in my life and almost always I show up and it turns out that no one knows what their job is and no one knows what success looks like.
就是这样。”因为老实说，我一生中接管过很多团队，而且几乎每次我都会出现，结果却没有人知道他们的工作是什么，也没有人知道成功是什么样子。
And if you can make those two things clear, which again is at the snorkel level, it will fix a huge percentage of other issues on a team.
如果你能把这两件事弄清楚（这又是通气管层面的），它将解决团队中很大一部分其他问题。
But the main thing is where you start and just always sort of starting at that structural level or the dynamics level and not sort of immediately going to the people and all that.
但最重要的是你从哪里开始，而且总是从结构层面或动态层面开始，而不是立即接触到人员等等。
Because yes, people cause all sorts of problems, but a lot of times the problems are happening because they're existing inside of a structure that's confusing.
因为是的，人们会造成各种各样的问题，但很多时候问题的发生是因为它们存在于一个令人困惑的结构内部。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another very vivid metaphor and just, I love how it builds on it with the snorkeling.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一个非常生动的比喻，我喜欢它与浮潜的结合。
Okay.
好的。
So, just to be super clear about this, the takeaway here is, you have a problem with your team, with the company, many people think it's, they jump to the people are the problem.
所以，要非常清楚地说明这一点，这里的要点是，你的团队、公司有问题，很多人认为这是问题，他们跳到人身上就是问题所在。
"They're not good enough, they're not working hard enough." Really, what you're saying is, most often, the issue is not the person, it's the situation, whether it's the structure of how they're set up to work or the dynamics amongst the people.
“他们不够好，他们工作不够努力。”确实，你所说的是，大多数情况下，问题不在于人，而在于情况，无论是他们的工作结构还是人们之间的动态。
And specifically what you're saying is that the role maybe isn't clear or what success means for that role is not clear.
具体来说，您所说的是该角色可能不清楚，或者成功对该角色意味着什么尚不清楚。
Molly Graham: Every company I've worked with or advise, I often start with like, "What are the goals?" And usually what you get the hack is, "Uh, not clear." And that in and of itself is a structural issue, right?
莫莉·格雷厄姆（Molly Graham）：我合作过或为我提供咨询的每家公司，我经常会这样开始：“目标是什么？”通常你得到的答案是“呃，不清楚。”这本身就是一个结构性问题，对吗？
How can someone show up and decide what they're going to do with their day all day if the goals aren't clear, if they don't actually know what the priorities are?
如果目标不明确，如果他们实际上不知道优先事项是什么，那么一个人怎么能出现并决定他们一整天要做什么呢？
And then it goes to, okay, role, right?
然后就到了，好吧，角色，对吧？
"Do I know what my job is?
“我知道我的工作是什么吗？
Do I know what number I was hired to own and drive?" And then, "Do I know what success looks like?
我知道我被雇来拥有和驾驶什么号码吗？”然后，“我知道成功是什么样子吗？
How does my role tie to that overall goal that the company has?" Just literally right there.
我的角色与公司的总体目标有何联系？”就在那里。
You got probably 80% of problems inside of companies because this is the hard work of company building.
80%的问题可能是在公司内部遇到的，因为这是公司建设的艰苦工作。
It's the stuff that's not intuitive.
这是不直观的东西。
"How do you organize a group of people to know which direction to row?"
“你如何组织一群人知道划向哪个方向？”
Molly Graham: And that equation, again, I would say 80% of problems that I see, performance issues.
Molly Graham：我想说，我看到的 80% 的问题都是性能问题。
I always start with, "Does this person actually know what you expect of them?" If not, go back to step one.
我总是这样开始：“这个人真的知道你对他们的期望吗？”如果没有，请返回第一步。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Clarify expectations, so the Waterline Model is just helpful for reminding us, like, "Start at the top."
明确期望，因此水线模型只是有助于提醒我们，例如“从顶部开始”。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what would you do there?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么你会在那里做什么？
Say you're a manager, you're having an issue with a team member, would you go and ask, "Hey, let's just make sure we're aligned on goals and roles." Is that how'd you approach it or is there a different approach?
假设您是一名经理，您与团队成员之间存在问题，您是否会去问：“嘿，让我们确保我们在目标和角色上保持一致。”这是你的处理方法还是有不同的方法？
Molly Graham: So a lot of times what I do is two-sided, right?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以很多时候我所做的事情都是双面的，对吧？
So it's like, "Hey, here's what I'm seeing and tell me what's going on for you.
所以就像是，“嘿，这就是我所看到的，请告诉我你发生了什么事。
Do you know X, Y, Z?" When I take over a team, when I'm doing my listening tour, part of what I'm asking is, "What do you think your job is?
你知道X、Y、Z吗？”当我接管一个团队时，当我进行聆听之旅时，我会问的一部分是，“你认为你的工作是什么？
What number were you hired to drive?" Because what you'll find is often their picture is different than your picture.
你被雇来开车的是几号？”因为你会发现他们的照片通常与你的照片不同。
You think you've been clear, you described an elephant and they spat out a tiger and that coming back to like, "Okay, no, we're building an elephant.
你认为你已经说得很清楚了，你描述了一头大象，他们吐出了一只老虎，然后又说，“好吧，不，我们正在建造一头大象。
You're in charge of the trunk." Will, in some percentage of cases, actually make a huge difference to the person's work and time and performance.
你负责保管行李箱。”在某些情况下，实际上会对人的工作、时间和绩效产生巨大的影响。
In plenty of cases it doesn't, but that's always where I would start because it so often is just a more fundamental problem that then would lead you to look at other things across the team.
在很多情况下，情况并非如此，但这总是我会开始的地方，因为它通常只是一个更基本的问题，然后会引导你查看团队中的其他事情。
Molly Graham: But yeah, I would say two-way dialogue, but re-clarifying roles and expectations, re-describing the elephant over and over and over again, is one of the hardest parts about being a leader because you feel like a broken record, right?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：但是，是的，我会说双向对话，但重新澄清角色和期望，一遍又一遍地重新描述大象，是成为领导者最困难的部分之一，因为你感觉自己打破了记录，对吧？
You feel like an idiot.
你感觉自己像个白痴。
You're like, "I've said this 45 times." Turns out no one heard you the first 43 and you have to.
你会说，“这句话我已经说了 45 遍了。”结果前 43 段没人听见你的声音，而你必须这么做。
You have to re-describe it in order for people to hear you and to re-understand their sort of role in what they're doing.
你必须重新描述它，以便人们听到你的声音并重新理解他们在所做的事情中所扮演的角色。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how you reframed the way I approached it by starting with, "Here's what I'm seeing.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你重新构建了我处理问题的方式，一开始就说：“这就是我所看到的。
What are you seeing?
你看到什么了？
What do you think your role is?
你认为你的角色是什么？
" The very non-violent communication oriented, which is a clear pattern on this podcast, just the power of that specific framework.
“非常非暴力的沟通导向，这是这个播客的一个清晰模式，正是该特定框架的力量。
Molly Graham: Yeah, totally.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，完全可以。
Well, like I said, work is about humans and it's...
嗯，就像我说的，工作是关于人的，而且......
Molly Graham: Like I said, work is about humans and it's the art of organizing humans to get something done and build something that's greater than the sum of its parts and that is an art of the humanness in all of us, how do we get people to hear us, how do we get people aligned.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：就像我说的，工作是关于人类的，它是组织人类完成某件事并创造出比各个部分之和更伟大的东西的艺术，这是我们所有人的人性艺术，我们如何让人们倾听我们的声音，我们如何让人们团结起来。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by GoFundMe Giving Funds, the zero fee donor advised fund.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 GoFundMe 捐赠基金（零费用捐赠者建议基金）为您带来。
Did you make it New Year's resolution to give more?
您是否立下新年决心要付出更多？
I want to tell you about a new product that GoFundMe has launched called Giving Funds which is a smarter and easier way to give.
我想向您介绍 GoFundMe 推出的一款名为 Giving Funds 的新产品，这是一种更智能、更简单的捐赠方式。
GoFundMe Giving Funds is a DAF or donor-advised fund from the world's number one giving platform trusted by over 200 million people, it's basically your own mini foundation without the lawyers or admin costs.
GoFundMe 捐赠基金是来自世界第一捐赠平台的 DAF 或捐赠者建议基金，受到超过 2 亿人的信任，它基本上是您自己的迷你基金会，无需律师或管理费用。
You contribute money or stock, get the tax deduction right away and then decide later where you want to donate.
您贡献金钱或股票，立即获得税收减免，然后再决定您想要捐赠的地方。
There are zero admin or asset fees and, while the money sits there, you can invest and grow a tax-free so that you can give more later.
管理费或资产费为零，当钱放在那里时，您可以免税投资和发展，以便以后可以提供更多。
GoFundMe is a FinTech unicorn working for good.
GoFundMe 是一家致力于公益的金融科技独角兽。
Make a better world in 2026 and start your Giving Fund today at gofundme.com/lenny.
在 2026 年创造一个更美好的世界，立即在 gofundme.com/lenny 启动您的捐赠基金。
They'll even cover your DAF pay fees if you transfer your existing DAF over.
如果您转移现有的 DAF，他们甚至会支付您的 DAF 费用。
That's gofundme.com/lenny to start your giving fund.
这是 gofundme.com/lenny 来启动您的捐赠基金。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let me actually follow this thread of the importance of goals and just being clear around this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我真正遵循目标重要性的线索，并明确这些内容。
You have these six rules for creating clear goals and alignment on teams, talk about these six roles.
您有这六个规则来创建明确的目标并在团队中保持一致，请谈谈这六个角色。
Molly Graham: Yeah, totally.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，完全可以。
I feel like there should be less than six but it's where we're at.
我觉得应该少于六个，但这就是我们现在的情况。
I would say, at a high level, two things before I get to the six.
在我谈到六件事之前，我想说的是，在高层次上，有两件事。
One is that I definitely have a bone to pick with OKRs, I feel like it's obviously been a really helpful framework for Google and others and, a lot of times, when I show up inside a company or I'm talking to a leader and I'm like, "What are your goals?" what I get back is this spreadsheet that has 100 lines and feels like it's written in Greek and, when I look at it, I'm like, " This doesn't create clarity for anyone." And it brings me back to what is the point of goals, why do we have them and, at the end of the day, goals are a communication tool, that's what they are.
一是我对 OKR 肯定有意见，我觉得它显然对 Google 和其他公司来说是一个非常有用的框架，很多时候，当我出现在公司内部或与领导者交谈时，我会问，“你的目标是什么？”我得到的是这个有 100 行的电子表格，感觉像是用希腊语写的，当我看到它时，我想，“这并不能为任何人带来清晰度。”这让我回到了目标的意义是什么，我们为什么要有目标，归根结底，目标是一种沟通工具，这就是目标。
They're a communication tool designed to create clarity, to help people know I'm going to show up at my desk, what should I work on, what's the most important thing and your 100-line spreadsheet doesn't help anybody.
它们是一种沟通工具，旨在提高清晰度，帮助人们知道我将出现在我的办公桌前，我应该做什么，什么是最重要的事情，而你的 100 行电子表格对任何人都没有帮助。
Molly Graham: And the second thing I would just say is you really have to ask the question what is right for me at this company and this stage, what is right for a seed stage company is not what is right for a company that's got an established business and a clear go-to-market machine.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我要说的第二件事是，你真的必须问一个问题：在这家公司和这个阶段，什么对我来说是正确的，对种子阶段公司来说，什么是正确的，而不是对拥有成熟业务和明确的上市机制的公司来说，什么是正确的。
So, when I'm building in seed stage, I'm setting goals every two months in a very iterative way.
因此，当我在种子阶段进行建设时，我会以非常迭代的方式每两个月设定一次目标。
When I have an established business, I can actually set annual goals but annual goals for early stage companies is just a waste of time.
当我拥有成熟的业务时，我实际上可以设定年度目标，但对于早期公司来说，年度目标只是浪费时间。
So, anyway, a lot of my goal setting stuff actually comes from Facebook which I think was very, very good at this.
所以，无论如何，我的很多目标设定内容实际上都来自 Facebook，我认为 Facebook 在这方面非常非常擅长。
Molly Graham: So, the first role is that no company needs more than three company goals and the point of company goals is to help people know what the most important things are to success.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以，第一个角色是，没有一家公司需要三个以上的公司目标，而公司目标的重点是帮助人们知道什么是成功最重要的事情。
So, Facebook basically had three goals for the entire time I was there, it was five years and we did six-month goal setting, I think we did annual goal setting that ended up getting reset every six months but whatever.
所以，我在那里的整个时间里，Facebook 基本上有三个目标，五年了，我们设定了六个月的目标，我想我们设定了年度目标，最终每六个月重置一次，但无论如何。
So, the three goals were this, there was growth which was measured as monthly active users, that was the externally reported number eventually, MAUs.
因此，这三个目标是，以每月活跃用户数衡量的增长，即最终外部报告的数字，MAU。
The second goal was engagement meaning how often do people come back and use the site and the third was revenue and we literally had three goals for the five years that I was there.
第二个目标是参与度，意味着人们回来使用该网站的频率，第三个目标是收入，我在那里的五年里，我们确实有三个目标。
If you can govern that business with three goals, you can govern literally any business with three goals.
如果您可以通过三个目标来管理该企业，那么您几乎可以通过三个目标来管理任何企业。
So, no company needs more than three goals.
因此，没有一家公司需要三个以上的目标。
Molly Graham: The second thing is that one goal needs to win in a fight.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：第二件事是，一个目标需要在一场战斗中获胜。
So, if I'm sitting down and asking how do I prioritize my time on a given day I need to know what is the most important thing.
因此，如果我坐下来问我如何优先安排某一天的时间，我需要知道什么是最重要的事情。
At Facebook, we had growth and there's a lot of different ways you can add monthly active users to a social media site including you can go buy a whole bunch of bots in Indonesia and that would add to your MAU number but it would not add to your engagement number and it was very clear for the entire time that I was there that engagement was the most important thing.
在 Facebook，我们取得了增长，有很多不同的方法可以将每月活跃用户添加到社交媒体网站，包括你可以去印度尼西亚购买一大堆机器人，这会增加你的月活跃用户数，但不会增加你的参与度，而且在我在那里的整个时间里，很明显参与度是最重要的事情。
Acquiring users that were going to use the site all the time, that's what drives revenue, it's also what drove the heart of that site.
获取将一直使用该网站的用户，这就是推动收入的因素，也是推动该网站核心发展的因素。
So, if you had to prioritize something, you prioritized engagement, that goal won in the fight.
所以，如果你必须优先考虑某件事，你就会优先考虑参与，这个目标会在战斗中获胜。
Molly Graham: The third I'll say is, I call it the explain it to me like I'm five goal, but an intern that started on Monday should be able to look at your goals and understand them and, if they can't, then you are failing because they are not a communication tool that's effective.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我要说的第三个是，我称之为向我解释，就像我有五个目标一样，但是周一开始的实习生应该能够审视你的目标并理解它们，如果他们不能，那么你就失败了，因为它们不是有效的沟通工具。
You have to be able to understand the goals, you have to explain the acronyms, you have to have numbers that make sense to average people, otherwise, again, it fails as a communication tool.
你必须能够理解目标，你必须解释首字母缩略词，你必须拥有对普通人有意义的数字，否则，它作为一种沟通工具又会失败。
Molly Graham: The fourth one is ...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：第四个是……
Actually, I stole a phrase from Claire Hughes Johnson who you've had on your podcast but wrote a book called Scaling People and in it she says this sentence that I love which is strategy should hurt.
事实上，我从克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊（Claire Hughes Johnson）那里偷了一句话，你在你的播客上看过她，但写了一本名为《扩展人员》（Scaling People）的书，在书中她说了这句话，我喜欢这句话，但策略应该会受到伤害。
And my role used to be set non-goals, basically, make it as clear what you're not going to do as what you are going to do but strategy should hurt is a much better way to explain it to people which is, if you're not making trade-offs that are painful, you are not actually helping people prioritize their time.
我的角色过去被设定为非目标，基本上，明确你不会做什么和你要做的事情一样清楚，但策略应该伤害是向人们解释这一点的更好方式，也就是说，如果你不做出痛苦的权衡，你实际上并没有帮助人们优先考虑他们的时间。
Because the nature of work is that people will show up every day and do something and either you are very clear with them about what the priorities are or they're going to prioritize for you because they're going to choose what they work on every day.
因为工作的本质是人们每天都会出现并做一些事情，要么你非常清楚他们的优先事项是什么，要么他们会为你确定优先事项，因为他们会选择每天的工作内容。
And we see this so much with founders where they can't cut things off the list, they just have to have the 10 goals and I'm like, "Cool.
我们在创始人身上看到了很多这样的情况，他们不能把事情从清单上删除，他们只需要制定 10 个目标，我就想，“酷。
Six of these goals are not going to get done so either you pick which four it is or other people are going to pick for you." So, strategy should hurt.
其中六个目标不会实现，所以要么你选择哪四个，要么其他人会为你选择。”所以，策略应该会带来伤害。
If your goal setting process is not painful, then you're not prioritizing heavily enough.
如果你的目标设定过程并不痛苦，那么你就没有足够重视优先顺序。
Molly Graham: Okay, ready?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：好的，准备好了吗？
We're on number five.
我们排在第五位。
This is more of an organizational point but it's really important for the waterline model too which is that one goal has one owner.
这更多的是一个组织点，但对于水线模型也非常重要，因为一个目标有一个所有者。
You have a number, that number has a name next to it.
你有一个号码，该号码旁边有一个名字。
If you cannot do that work, you haven't done the most important work to actually make sure that these goals get accomplished.
如果你不能完成这项工作，那么你就没有完成最重要的工作来真正确保实现这些目标。
And it's organizational work and it's very painful because sometimes it feels like, oh, this person can own it or this, maybe they'll just own it together, two people owning a goal is no one owning a goal.
这是组织工作，非常痛苦，因为有时感觉就像，哦，这个人可以拥有它或这个，也许他们会一起拥有它，两个人拥有一个目标，而不是没有人拥有一个目标。
One person owns the goal, who is it?
一个人拥有目标，他是谁？
It's not you as the CEO, it's someone that works for you so one goal, one owner.
不是你作为首席执行官，而是一个为你工作的人，所以只有一个目标，一个所有者。
And then the last, which is the hardest, is that goals by themselves are not enough.
最后，也是最难的一点，目标本身是不够的。
I've spent a lot of time with founders that are like, "I did it.
我花了很多时间和创始人打交道，他们会说：“我做到了。
I set the goals.
我设定了目标。
Why not working?
为什么不工作？
I don't understand." And I'm like, "What did you do after you set the goals?" And they're like, "I don't know, I set the goals." Goals ...
我不明白。”我想，“设定目标后你做了什么？”他们会说，“我不知道，我设定了目标。”目标...
Molly Graham: James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits has this really lovely sentence which is winners and losers have the same goal.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：《原子习惯》的作者詹姆斯·克莱尔有一句非常可爱的句子，那就是胜利者和失败者有相同的目标。
Goals by themself are not enough, you have to have a process by which you follow up on the goals and you hold people accountable to the goals and you learn from the goals because so much of goal setting, particularly if you're earlier in building your company, is about learning from trying to do something.
目标本身是不够的，你必须有一个过程来跟踪目标，让人们对目标负责，并从目标中学习，因为很多目标设定，特别是如果你在建立公司的早期，都是从尝试做某事中学习。
You set a goal, can we do it, how hard is it to move this number, that is the ...
你定了一个目标，我们能不能做到，移动这个数字有多难，那就是……
You might be wrong all the time but you're learning what it takes to move the number.
你可能一直都是错的，但你正在学习如何移动数字。
So, setting the goal by itself, not enough, you have to build a process in the system to actually learn from the goal.
所以，仅仅设定目标是不够的，你必须在系统中建立一个流程来真正从目标中学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
This list is ...
这份清单是...
There's so much power in this list, it's such a succinct-
这份清单的力量如此之大，如此简洁——
Lenny Rachitsky: No, I don't think it is because each of these has so much depth and power to them that saves you so much headache and just wasted time and resources.
Lenny Rachitsky：不，我不认为这是因为它们中的每一个都有如此多的深度和力量，可以让你省去很多麻烦，只是浪费时间和资源。
Just the idea of one owner, one goal, something I've personally discovered to have such power because, and correct me if I'm missing something here but just, if you feel like someone else may be doing the thing or feels like it's not just fully your responsibility, there's so much less energy and just mental ...
只是一个所有者，一个目标的想法，我个人发现的东西有这样的力量，因为，如果我在这里遗漏了什么，请纠正我，但是，如果你觉得其他人可能在做这件事，或者感觉这不仅仅是你的责任，那么精力和精神上就少了很多......
I don't know.
我不知道。
You just don't care as much about hitting that goal.
你只是不太关心实现这个目标。
And if it's you-
如果是你的话——
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
If it's like, "Lenny, this goal is your goal and, if you hit it, you've done it.
如果它就像，“莱尼，这个目标就是你的目标，如果你达到了它，你就完成了。
If you don't, you've done a bad job," that'd be a such motivating, so motivating.
如果你不这样做，你就做得很糟糕，”这将是一个非常激励人心的激励。
If it's me and Molly, okay, well, we'll figure it out.
如果是我和莫莉，好吧，好吧，我们会想办法的。
Molly Graham: It creates a flood of clarity that seeps down from the person too.
莫莉·格雷厄姆（Molly Graham）：它创造了一种清晰的洪流，这种清晰也从人身上渗透下来。
And to go back to the waterline model, I would say, so often you'll actually find companies that have set goals but no one owns the goals, everyone owns the goals, multiple people own the goal and you didn't actually get all the way to the answer.
回到水线模型，我想说，你经常会发现公司已经设定了目标，但没有人拥有目标，每个人都拥有目标，多人拥有目标，但你实际上并没有完全得到答案。
And I will say that the ownership thing is hard, it can feel painful but it's really important.
我想说的是，所有权的事情很困难，可能会让人感到痛苦，但它确实很重要。
There's only one owner and that means that that person, come hell or high water, owns that number.
只有一个所有者，这意味着那个人，无论地狱还是高水位，都拥有该号码。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
The way I described it was just someone's ass has to be on the line for this and that just works.
我所描述的方式就是必须有人为此冒险，而这确实有效。
That's such a powerful lever to drive things to have one person responsible.
这是一个如此强大的杠杆，可以推动事情由一个人负责。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other's just this idea of strategy hurting, I love that.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一个就是这种伤害战略的想法，我喜欢这一点。
I love that phrase, I forgot Claire had that.
我喜欢这句话，我忘了克莱尔说过这句话。
So true.
如此真实。
Lenny Rachitsky: Because the whole idea is you need to not do things, you need to decide what you're not ...
Lenny Rachitsky：因为整个想法是你需要不做某事，你需要决定你不做什么......
The whole strategy, a big part of it is what we are not doing.
整个战略的很大一部分是我们没有做的。
Molly Graham: Yeah, absolutely.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，绝对是。
And if you're not making painful choices, then you're not actually doing it.
如果你没有做出痛苦的选择，那么你就没有真正去做。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this idea of three goals, so is it just ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这个三个目标的想法，是不是……
So, do you go into a company and just go through a checklist essentially of here's the six things I look at to tell me where there's opportunity to improve?
那么，你是否会进入一家公司，只浏览一份清单，基本上是我查看的六件事，以告诉我哪里有改进的机会？
Molly Graham: When I work with founders and I see their goals, I use it as a way to get to know the business and I'm just going to be literally like, "What is this?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：当我与创始人合作并看到他们的目标时，我用它作为了解业务的一种方式，我会说，“这是什么？
What are you trying to explain?" And I can usually, through asking a lot of really dumb questions which, like I said, one of my superpowers, get them to explain to me the one sentence and the one number that they're actually trying to get across but it takes work and that's part of ...
你想解释什么？”我通常可以通过问很多非常愚蠢的问题，就像我说的，这是我的超能力之一，让他们向我解释他们实际上试图理解的一句话和一个数字，但这需要工作，这是……的一部分。
It's almost easier to write the 100-line spreadsheet than it is to say, "Wait, what are the three drivers of this business genuinely?
编写 100 行电子表格几乎比说“等等，这个业务真正的三个驱动力是什么？
What are they and how do they relate to each other?" And there can be things underneath them but there's three at the top that matter.
它们是什么以及它们之间有何关系？”它们下面可能有东西，但上面的三个东西很重要。
So, yeah, I'm not a scientific person about it but a lot of it is just by asking people to explain their businesses to me, you can basically find the drivers.
所以，是的，我不是一个科学人士，但很多事情只是通过要求人们向我解释他们的业务，你基本上可以找到驱动因素。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the story about Facebook having these same three goals for five years, considering their success, you may think they're not as complicated as your business but I am confident they're just as, if not, more complicated.
Lenny Rachitsky：关于 Facebook 五年来一直坚持这三个目标的故事，考虑到他们的成功，你可能认为它们并不像你的业务那么复杂，但我相信它们也同样（如果不是的话）更复杂。
They're a marketplace, a social network, they're a ad business, just they're ...
他们是一个市场，一个社交网络，他们是一家广告公司，只是他们......
There's a lot going on and, if they can work with three goals, you can do that too.
正在发生很多事情，如果他们能实现三个目标，你也能做到。
And to your point, if it's not hurting, then you're doing something wrong.
就你而言，如果没有造成伤害，那么你就做错了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢......
This is very much what I wanted this chat to be.
这正是我想要的这次聊天。
It feels like every little segment is its own, could be its own podcast where we could talk about this for hours so I'm really excited how this is going.
感觉每个小片段都是它自己的，可能是它自己的播客，我们可以在其中讨论几个小时，所以我真的很兴奋这一切的进展。
Moving on to another topic, you have not necessarily rules but rules of thumb that you find really helpful for people to have in their head as they're dealing with change and scale and growth and all that kind of stuff so let's just walk through that.
转到另一个主题，你不一定有规则，但有经验法则，你发现这些经验法则对人们在处理变化、规模和增长以及所有此类事情时确实很有帮助，所以让我们来看看。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
So, for leaders that are leading through change and growth, the list is probably long but I always say to people don't come to me for management 101, I'm not the person to ask on how to run the most effective one-on-one with your people.
因此，对于领导变革和成长的领导者来说，这个清单可能很长，但我总是对人们说，不要来找我进行管理 101，我不是询问如何与员工进行最有效的一对一的人。
What I think is not talked about enough is what it takes to manage and lead through change and that is a very particular set of feelings.
我认为管理和领导变革所需的内容还没有被充分讨论，这是一种非常特殊的感受。
And the first thing I learned, when someone makes you a manager or when you take a job as a leader inside a company, you really do feel like, "Oh, who gave me this job?" and you feel like you're supposed to know the answer to things.
我学到的第一件事是，当有人让你成为经理或当你在公司内部担任领导者时，你真的会觉得，“哦，谁给了我这份工作？”你觉得你应该知道事情的答案。
People come to you and ask questions and you're like, "I'm supposed to know.
人们来找你问问题，你会说：“我应该知道。
I'm a leader, I am supposed to have answers."
我是一名领导者，我应该有答案。”
Molly Graham: And I think, particularly inside of rapid change and scale and growth, it's really important to understand that your job as manager and a leader is not to have all the answers.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我认为，特别是在快速变化、规模和增长的情况下，了解作为经理和领导者的工作并不是掌握所有答案，这一点非常重要。
It is not to have all the answers, it is to get good at finding them, it is to get good at bringing people together to find the answers.
不是要拥有所有的答案，而是要善于找到答案，要善于将人们聚集在一起寻找答案。
And that is hard because it requires saying, "I don't know, let's go figure it out," a whole bunch and it's scary as a leader to say I don't know because you think, "Oh, gosh, people are going to see through me." But again, the more you travel in life, the more you realize that the most experienced leaders are the ones that say, "No, no, no," all the time.
这很难，因为它需要一大堆人说“我不知道，让我们去弄清楚”，而作为一个领导者，说我不知道是很可怕的，因为你会想，“哦，天哪，人们会看穿我的。”但同样，你在生活中旅行得越多，你就越会意识到，最有经验的领导者总是会说“不，不，不”。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is a good reminder of this Bob the monster concept because, hearing this, okay, I don't need to have all the answers as a leader.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这很好地提醒了鲍勃怪物的概念，因为听到这个，好吧，作为领导者我不需要拥有所有答案。
In real life, being in a meeting, people are like, "Hey, Molly, what do you think of this?" You're like, "Oh, I should have a good answer." And so, I think that's a good reminder of this idea of this Bob the monster is going to tell you, "Oh, you don't know anything, you're not ready for this.
在现实生活中，在开会时，人们会说，“嘿，莫莉，你对此有何看法？”你会说，“哦，我应该有一个好的答案。”所以，我认为这很好地提醒了这个想法，怪物鲍勃会告诉你，“哦，你什么都不知道，你还没有准备好。
You suck at this, you're going to fail everyone that's ."
你在这件事上表现得很糟糕，你会让所有人都失望的。”
Molly Graham: They're regretting hiring you.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：他们后悔雇用你了。
Molly Graham: Everyone's going to see through you.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：每个人都会看穿你。
Imposter, imposter, imposter.
冒名顶替者，冒名顶替者，冒名顶替者。
Lenny Rachitsky: But just remembering, there's going to be this part of your head and that's okay, it's there but it doesn't mean it's true.
Lenny Rachitsky：但只要记住，你的头脑中会有这一部分，没关系，它就在那里，但并不意味着它是真的。
Molly Graham: Absolutely.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：当然。
And these things are muscles.
这些东西就是肌肉。
Dealing with Bob as a muscle, learning to not react to all those things that attack you but also learning, oh, in this moment when someone asks me a question and I'm like, "Oh," actually I should be like, "I don't actually know, let's go ...
把鲍勃当作一块肌肉来对待，学会不对所有那些攻击你的事情做出反应，但也要学会，哦，在这一刻，当有人问我一个问题时，我会说，“哦，”实际上我应该说，“我实际上不知道，我们走吧......
Who should we ask?
我们应该问谁？
How can we learn this?
我们怎样才能学习这个呢？
How can we explore this together?
我们如何共同探索这个问题？
What do you think?" Those are all actually very powerful questions and they're terrifying to, particularly earlier in your career, as a leader and a manager.
你觉得怎么样？”这些实际上都是非常有力的问题，而且令人恐惧，尤其是在你作为领导者和经理的职业生涯早期。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So, yeah, so the lesson there is no one expects you to have all the answers as a leader.
所以，是的，所以没有人期望你作为领导者拥有所有答案。
Molly Graham: And particularly in this world, the one that's changing as fast as it is, nobody knows.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：尤其是在这个变化如此之快的世界，没有人知道。
Nobody knows what the answers are in a lot of cases, the war will be won by the people that are good exploring and figuring it out.
很多情况下没有人知道答案是什么，善于探索和找出答案的人才能赢得战争。
Molly Graham: So, the second one is, and everyone that has learned this has learned it the hard way, do not promise things that you can't control.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以，第二个是，每个学到这一点的人都经历过惨痛的教训，不要承诺你无法控制的事情。
It's so tempting particularly when you're hiring people to be like, "Oh, yeah, your onboarding will be smooth and calm and everything's clear and we've figured it ...
这是非常诱人的，尤其是当你在招聘员工时会说：“哦，是的，你的入职将会顺利、平静，一切都很清楚，我们已经想到了......
Let us tell you our vision and how obvious and clear and smart and blah, blah, blah." And then they show up and it's like, "Oh, shit," you know what I mean?
让我们告诉你我们的愿景是多么明显、清晰、聪明，等等。”然后他们出现了，就像，“哦，该死，”你知道我的意思吗？
There's no manual, no one knows what they're doing, it's all ambiguity and chaos.
没有手册，没有人知道他们在做什么，一切都是模糊和混乱的。
It's so easy when someone says I want to know that I'm going to be your CMO forever to be like, "Sure, you can be my CMO," you don't know that.
当有人说我想知道我将永远担任你的首席营销官时，很容易就会说，“当然，你可以成为我的首席营销官”，但你并不知道这一点。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
So, being really careful with promises of things that are out of your control like stability or titles or never hiring over someone is a flashing red light because there is literally no faster way to demoralize high performers than going back on a promise.
因此，对那些你无法控制的事情（比如稳定性或头衔）的承诺要非常小心，或者永远不要雇用某人，这都是一个闪烁的红灯，因为实际上没有比食言更能挫伤高绩效员工士气的方法了。
Everyone that has been through it knows that feeling of like, "They told me this when I joined," and then they don't do it and you're like, "Well, fuck this place." So, no faster way to demoralize people or to hire the wrong people than promising things that are actually out of your control.
每个经历过这种事的人都知道那种感觉，“我加入时他们告诉我了这一点”，然后他们不这样做，你就会说，“好吧，去他妈的这个地方。”因此，没有比承诺实际上超出你控制范围的事情更能让人们士气低落或雇用错误的人的方法了。
Being honest and upfront about who you are as a company, about what you're able to promise, all of that is actually ...
诚实和坦率地说明你作为一家公司的身份，你能够承诺什么，所有这些实际上都是......
It's very hard work but it's so important because so much is out of your control and you need to hire people that are cool with that.
这是非常艰苦的工作，但它非常重要，因为很多事情都是你无法控制的，你需要雇用对此很冷静的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢这个。
I learned this the hard way once, I had a ...
我曾经以惨痛的方式了解到这一点，我有一个......
One of my early projects, we were late and the head of product was just so pissed he's like, "Because I've been telling the CEO it's going to be on time because you've been telling me it's going to be on time and then it wasn't and why didn't you tell me that?" And I was just like, "Okay, it'll never happen again," and he's like, "You can't ...
我的一个早期项目，我们迟到了，产品负责人非常生气，他说，“因为我一直告诉首席执行官它会准时，而你一直告诉我它会准时，然后却没有准时，你为什么不告诉我呢？”我当时就想，“好吧，这种事再也不会发生了，”他说，“你不能……
Don't tell me that because that's not true, that nay not ...
不要告诉我这个，因为那不是真的，那不是......
You can't guarantee that." And so, that taught me that lesson of just, yeah, you're right, you want to say that, it feels so good.
你不能保证这一点。”所以，这给了我一个教训，就是，是的，你是对的，你想说的是，感觉真好。
Okay, this will never happen again but you can't and they know you can't promise things like that.
好吧，这种事不会再发生了，但你不能，他们也知道你不能做出这样的承诺。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
And sorry, I'm going to quote Claire Hughes Johnson again but she has this really fun phrase that she said in a talk at Glue Club that I've now latched onto and stolen from her which is, she was like, "Promises like that are like letter bombs that you mail yourself that are going to explode in your face in a year," and I was like, "That is the perfect metaphor." Because it's short-term pain, you want to make this person feel good right now so you promise them something but, in one year, you're going to make them feel terrible so don't do it.
抱歉，我要再次引用克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊的话，但她在胶水俱乐部的一次演讲中说过这句话，我现在已经抓住并从她那里偷走了这句话，她说，“这样的承诺就像你寄给自己的信件炸弹，一年后就会在你脸上爆炸，”我当时想，“这是一个完美的比喻。”因为这是短期的痛苦，你想让这个人现在感觉良好，所以你向他们承诺一些事情，但一年后，你会让他们感觉很糟糕，所以不要这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great advice.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：很好的建议。
All right, keep going.
好吧，继续。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
So, again, could probably go on the topic of what it takes to manage and lead forever inside this stuff but I'll give you two more that I yell about a lot in Glue Club.
所以，再次，可能会继续讨论如何在这些东西中永远管理和领导的话题，但我会给你另外两个我在胶水俱乐部大喊大叫的内容。
The first is that we spend huge amounts of time talking about hiring.
首先，我们花费了大量时间讨论招聘问题。
How do you get good at hiring?
如何擅长招聘？
What's the right interview?
什么是正确的面试？
How do I find the right people?
我如何找到合适的人？
Firing people is as important as hiring people.
解雇员工与雇用员工同样重要。
Getting good at identifying when someone does not belong or someone is not going to work out is actually a skill and being good at it as a company and as a leader is as important as identifying the right talent because, eventually, if you're not good at firing people, what you have is essentially barnacles on a ship.
善于识别某人不属于这里或某人不适合工作的情况实际上是一种技能，作为一家公司和一个领导者，善于识别某人与识别合适的人才一样重要，因为最终，如果你不擅长解雇员工，那么你所拥有的基本上就是船上的藤壶。
Really going forward with the ship metaphor, anyway.
无论如何，确实在推进船的比喻。
Molly Graham: It's drag people that are sitting around not pushing the team forward.
Molly Graham：那些坐在那里不推动团队前进的人是拖沓的人。
So, it's painful and it's horrible because it is humans but, when someone doesn't fit, you ...
所以，这很痛苦，也很可怕，因为这是人类，但是，当有人不适合时，你......
No one is right all the time when it comes to hiring, I actually say most people are wrong half the time.
在招聘方面，没有人总是对的，我实际上说大多数人有一半的时间都是错的。
The best people in the world in hiring will tell you they have about a 50% average in terms of being right.
世界上最优秀的招聘人员会告诉你，他们的平均正确率约为 50%。
That means half the hires don't work out.
这意味着一半的员工没有成功。
That means, half the time, you're going to need to fire the person.
这意味着，有一半的情况下，你需要解雇这个人。
So, it's such an important skill to get good at particularly when you're going through a lot of change.
因此，这是一项非常重要的技能，尤其是当你正在经历很多变化时。
And the last one is humans are messy and it's very emotional.
最后一个是人类是混乱的，而且非常情绪化。
And when you're a leader, particularly if you have any kind of anagram too or just if you like to make people happy and you want to be liked, it can be so hard to lead teams because you get tangled in the people.
当你是一名领导者时，特别是如果你也有任何类型的字谜，或者只是如果你想让人们快乐并且你想被人喜欢，那么领导团队可能会很困难，因为你会与人们纠缠在一起。
Firing people is a painful experience, reorganizing things, layering people, all these things are emotionally painful for the people and they're emotionally painful for you as a manager.
解雇员工是一种痛苦的经历，重组事物，对员工进行分层，所有这些事情对员工来说都是情感上的痛苦，对作为经理的你来说也是情感上的痛苦。
Molly Graham: But my mantra that almost always leads in the best direction is serve the business, not the people meaning everyone is better off if this company is wildly successful.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：但我的座右铭几乎总是引导最好的方向，那就是为企业服务，而不是为人民服务，这意味着如果这家公司取得巨大成功，每个人都会过得更好。
Everyone looks smart and makes lots of money or whatever if this company grows and does what we all dream it can.
如果这家公司发展壮大并实现我们所有人的梦想，那么每个人都会看起来很聪明并且赚很多钱或者其他什么。
So, at the end of the day, the best decisions, the ones that are always going to be right are the ones that are like, "How do we do the right thing for this business?" And it also helps in political situations.
因此，归根结底，最好的、永远正确的决策就是“我们如何为这项业务做正确的事情？”这样的决策。这对于政治局势也有帮助。
Someone's acting weird or their Bob is raging all over the company, technically, everyone has the same goal.
有人表现得很奇怪，或者他们的鲍勃在公司里发脾气，从技术上讲，每个人都有相同的目标。
The goal is to build the biggest business possible, that's the answer.
我们的目标是建立尽可能最大的业务，这就是答案。
The answer is always what's the right thing for the business.
答案始终是什么对企业来说是正确的。
And the people stuff can fall away when you actually focus on what's the right thing for the business.
当你真正专注于对企业来说正确的事情时，人员的事情就会消失。
Lenny Rachitsky: A really useful tool to do that that I learned from my manager is to think about, when you're trying to decide whether to fire someone or change a project even though it's going to upset someone, is to say, "Okay, if there were no emotions involved, if this person had no negative reaction to this, what would I do?"
Lenny Rachitsky：我从我的经理那里学到的一个非常有用的工具是，当你试图决定是否解雇某人或改变一个项目时，即使这会让某人感到不安，你可以说：“好吧，如果不涉及任何情绪，如果这个人对此没有负面反应，我会怎么做？”
Lenny Rachitsky: And then that's the thing you should do and then you just do it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是你应该做的事情，然后你就去做吧。
And then the question is how do I communicate this to them where their pain is lowest essentially.
然后问题是我如何向他们传达这一点，让他们的痛苦基本上最低。
Lenny Rachitsky: In the kindest way possible.
Lenny Rachitsky：以尽可能最友善的方式。
And because, to your point, if you optimize for the other thing of making people feel good, everything just falls apart, they're going to suffer even more down the road.
因为，就你的观点而言，如果你优化另一件事，让人们感觉良好，那么一切都会分崩离析，他们会在未来遭受更多的痛苦。
Molly Graham: Yeah, absolutely.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，绝对是。
Direct is kind.
直接就是善良。
And it feels kind or, really, honestly, easy to avoid these things or to work around them or to not but, at the end of the day, it's basically just a drag, the barnacle thing.
避免这些事情或解决这些问题或不解决这些问题感觉很友善，或者说实话，很容易，但归根结底，这基本上只是一种拖累，藤壶的事情。
It drags on your company, on your time, on your energy, et cetera.
它会拖累你的公司、你的时间、你的精力等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
But again, very hard to do in real life to do the thing that's hard and cause someone to be sad and upset and frustrated and maybe leave.
但同样，在现实生活中很难做那些困难的事情，让某人感到悲伤、不安、沮丧，甚至可能离开。
Molly Graham: It is so hard and all these things are muscles, you get better at ...
莫莉·格雷厄姆：这太难了，所有这些都是肌肉，你会变得更好......
They don't become easy, it's not like anybody who's like, "Oh, it's so ...
他们不会变得容易，不像任何人会说，“哦，这太......
I enjoy firing people," no, but you recognize it faster and you are like, "Oh, I need to go do this." And that is actually ...
我喜欢解雇员工，”不，但你会更快地意识到这一点，然后你会说，“哦，我需要去做这件事。”而那实际上是...
It's a practice and something that you need to practice to become the kind of leader that leads these long-enduring companies.
这是一种实践，也是你需要练习的东西，才能成为领导这些历史悠久的公司的领导者。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And this tool of thinking, asking what would I do if there were no emotions involved and this person wouldn't be upset, it helps you realize, okay, I see, this actually doesn't make sense to just do it the easy way right now because it doesn't make sense.
这个思考工具，问如果没有情绪参与并且这个人不会生气我会做什么，它可以帮助你意识到，好吧，我明白了，现在就简单地做这件事实际上是没有意义的，因为它没有意义。
Molly Graham: Yeah, it strips away.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，它剥离了。
It strips away the emotions.
它剥夺了情感。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something else I wanted to make sure we spent a little time on is you have another tidbit along these lines which is around putting most of your energy into high performers versus spending all your time people that need help, talk about that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想确保我们花一点时间的另一件事是，您还有另一个类似的花絮，即把大部分精力投入到高绩效人员身上，而不是把所有时间都花在需要帮助的人身上，谈论这一点。
Molly Graham: As a leader, as a manager, you're running these teams and someone's struggling and it's very easy to get dragged into that and to end up spending a huge amount of energy on it but high performers are actually the future of your company.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：作为一名领导者、一名经理，你负责管理这些团队，而有人在苦苦挣扎，很容易被卷入其中并最终花费大量精力，但高绩效员工实际上是公司的未来。
And if you think about it and if you've spent time on it, those are the folks where, if you invest your time and energy in them, you're going to get the 10x return that people talk about all the time in Silicon Valley.
如果你想一想，如果你在这上面花了时间，你就会发现，如果你在这些人身上投入时间和精力，你将获得硅谷人们一直谈论的 10 倍回报。
But what I've witnessed is that most people have a high performer and they just leave them alone, they're like, "That person's doing well so I'm just going to let them do their thing." And what I do when I have a high performer that's my favorite thing in the world is invest time and energy in them and basically build a whole system of working with them that is designed to draw out potential.
但我所目睹的是，大多数人都有出色的表现，但他们只是让他们独自一人，他们就像，“那个人做得很好，所以我会让他们做他们的事情。”当我拥有一个高绩效员工时，我所做的就是在他们身上投入时间和精力，并基本上建立一个与他们合作的完整系统，这是我在世界上最喜欢的事情，旨在激发他们的潜力。
And I would say there's two things here, one is it's really important to realize that our tendency-
我想说这里有两件事，一是认识到我们的倾向非常重要——
Molly Graham: There's two things here.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：这里有两件事。
One is it's really important to realize that our tendency is to actually spend time on low performers and it is not a good use of your time.
一是认识到我们实际上倾向于将时间花在表现不佳的人身上，这非常重要，这并不是一个很好的利用时间的方式。
See the point about firing people.
请参阅关于解雇人员的要点。
But the other thing is that actively investing in and developing high performers is something that's important to get good at as a leader because that is how you create these little rocket ships that end up...
但另一件事是，积极投资和培养高绩效人才对于成为领导者来说非常重要，因为这就是你如何创造这些小型火箭飞船，最终......
You'll manage someone who's just like a project manager and all of a sudden they're running a whole function inside the company eventually, but it's because you took time and energy to invest in them.
你将管理一个像项目经理一样的人，突然间他们最终在公司内部运行整个职能，但这是因为你花了时间和精力在他们身上投资。
And my basic way of doing that, not to...
我这样做的基本方式，不是......
I could spend a long time on this, but I would just say is I run experiments.
我可以花很长时间在这上面，但我只想说我进行了实验。
I basically develop a theory about someone, "I think this person is capable of this kind of thing." And then piece by piece, it doesn't have to be a whole job or whole project.
我基本上对某人形成了一种理论，“我认为这个人有能力做这种事情。”然后一点一点地进行，不一定是整个工作或整个项目。
It can just be an incremental experiment, "I'm going to see if they can do this with less guidance or support from me."
这可能只是一个渐进的实验，“我将看看他们是否可以在我的指导或支持较少的情况下做到这一点。”
Molly Graham: I'm going to give them a bigger project.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我要给他们一个更大的项目。
I'm going to give them something with more visibility.
我会给他们一些更能见度的东西。
I'm going to manage them less, oversee them less, whatever.
我将减少对他们的管理，减少对他们的监督，无论如何。
All of those are experiments to basically test your theory and deepen your theory in terms of this person's potential and their ability to help the company.
所有这些都是实验，从根本上测试你的理论，并根据这个人的潜力和他们帮助公司的能力来深化你的理论。
And you're basically, for me, what I'm doing is deeply getting to know that person and then trying to pair them with company needs.
基本上，对我来说，我正在做的就是深入了解那个人，然后尝试将他们与公司的需求结合起来。
What do we need?
我们需要什么？
This person is great at zebra farming.
这个人很擅长养斑马。
Where do we need zebra farming?
哪些地方需要斑马养殖？
So how do I get them working on bigger and bigger and more and more critical things?
那么我如何让他们致力于越来越大、越来越重要的事情呢？
Molly Graham: And to be honest, this is what people have done for me.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：说实话，这就是人们为我所做的事情。
At Facebook in particular, I've benefited from people being like, "Ooh, come help me with this thing." They saw potential in me and they asked me to help with something and it unlocked a huge amount for me.
尤其是在 Facebook，我从人们的“哦，来帮我解决这件事”中受益匪浅。他们看到了我的潜力，并请我帮忙做一些事情，这为我释放了巨大的潜力。
And so, it is such a powerful tool for getting more out of people that might be a little bit stuck if you leave them in this box.
因此，它是一个非常强大的工具，可以让人们发挥更多作用，如果你把他们留在这个盒子里，可能会有点困难。
But if you start to expand the box, you can really unlock people.
但如果你开始扩大这个盒子，你就可以真正解锁人们。
Lenny Rachitsky: So speaking of high performers, you've worked with many very high performing founder-CEOs.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到高绩效者，您曾与许多绩效非常高的创始人兼首席执行官共事过。
He worked really closely with Zuck, with Cheryl Sandberg, with Larry and Sergei at Google, with Brett Taylor, who I just...
他与扎克、谢丽尔·桑德伯格、谷歌的拉里和谢尔盖、布雷特·泰勒密切合作，我刚刚……
Just like you trying to read his resume, it takes three lines of things he's done over the course of his career.
就像你试图阅读他的简历一样，你需要了解他在职业生涯中所做的三行事情。
And so I just want to spend a little time on what are some things you've learned, maybe a few things you've learned from them, that group that you find yourself sharing with other people most.
所以我只想花一点时间谈谈你学到了什么，也许是你从他们那里学到的一些东西，你发现自己最常与其他人分享的那个群体。
Molly Graham: That list is very long, but I'll give you a couple.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：这个清单很长，但我会给你几个。
The first one that I think is kind of counterintuitive is...
我认为有点违反直觉的第一个是......
So I said I worked at Facebook.
所以我说我在 Facebook 工作。
I worked on culture, which is one of those words that doesn't really mean anything.
我研究的是文化，这是一个没有任何实际意义的词。
So I define it as the way we do things around here.
所以我将其定义为我们在这里做事的方式。
And I thought my job was to shape the culture.
我认为我的工作是塑造文化。
I thought it was to push the culture.
我认为这是为了推动文化。
And the most humbling lesson I learned is 80% of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder.
我学到的最令人羞愧的教训是，公司文化的 80% 实际上是由创始人的个性定义的。
Facebook is Mark.
脸书是马克.
Google is Larry and Sergei.
谷歌是拉里和谢尔盖。
Google, when I was there, it felt like a university.
谷歌，当我在那里的时候，感觉就像一所大学。
It's where ideas are more important in a lot of ways than what's shipped.
在很多方面，创意比交付的内容更重要。
And there's a campus and they basically wanted people to live there when I was there.
还有一个校园，当我在那里时，他们基本上希望人们住在那里。
It was designed to basically be a two PhD students' paradise.
它基本上被设计成两个博士生的天堂。
Molly Graham: Facebook felt like a 19-year-old hacker's dorm room when I was there.
Molly Graham：当我在那里时，Facebook 感觉就像一个 19 岁黑客的宿舍。
And it was shipping above all and all else.
最重要的是运输。
And it seeped with Mark's DNA.
它渗入了马克的 DNA。
And I spent ages trying to create various changes inside the company or trying to push a point.
我花了很长时间试图在公司内部做出各种改变或试图推动一个观点。
And Mark would say literally one thing in an all hands, and it was like somebody threw a boulder into the pond.
马克会在全体会议上说一件事，就像有人把一块巨石扔进池塘一样。
So our job as operators or as leaders around founders is to help articulate the culture that they're creating and to help extend it.
因此，作为创始人周围的运营商或领导者，我们的工作是帮助阐明他们正在创建的文化并帮助扩展它。
My version of founder mode, which I know you've spent some time on on this podcast is your job is to build a company that would make a decision the way the founder would when they're not in the room.
我的创始人模式版本，我知道你在这个播客上花了一些时间，你的工作是建立一家公司，该公司将像创始人不在房间时那样做出决定。
That is the work of building a company around a founder, but your job is not to shape culture.
这是围绕创始人建立一家公司的工作，但你的工作不是塑造文化。
Molly Graham: That is mostly defined by the literal personality strengths and weaknesses of the person at the top.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：这主要是由高层人士的性格优势和劣势来定义的。
And that's been true of Mark and it's been true of Brett.
马克就是如此，布雷特也是如此。
Everywhere I go, that's who it is.
无论我走到哪里，都是这样的人。
You don't need a consulting firm to tell you, just go do a personality diagnosis on your founder.
你不需要咨询公司来告诉你，直接去对你的创始人做个性格诊断就可以了。
And the weaknesses thing is real.
弱点是真实存在的。
I've seen and watched friends try to shape a set of values at a company and it just doesn't match who the founder is.
我见过并看到朋友们试图在一家公司塑造一套价值观，但它与创始人是谁并不相符。
You say, "Move fast and break things," or whatever your version of that is.
你会说，“快速行动，打破常规”，或者无论你的说法是什么。
And your founder loves ambiguity and is perfectly happy with not making decisions.
而你的创始人喜欢模棱两可，并且非常乐意不做决定。
All that leads to is cultural dissonance.
一切导致的都是文化的不和谐。
It leads to people being like, "Wait, what?
这导致人们会说，“等等，什么？
I thought we said we care about moving fast and making aggressive decisions and it turns out..." So being really careful about what you say, because what people actually feel when it comes to culture is what you do and how you act every day.
我以为我们说过我们关心快速行动并做出积极的决定，结果......”所以要非常小心你所说的话，因为人们在文化方面的实际感受是你每天所做的事情和行为。
Molly Graham: You can never write anything down and you will still have a culture.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：你永远无法写下任何东西，但你仍然会有一种文化。
It will be created through the actions and the decisions that you make and that your founder makes.
它将通过您和您的创始人所做的行动和决策来创建。
So that would be a huge one.
所以这将是一个巨大的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me spend a little more time on this because this is so good.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我多花一点时间在这上面，因为这太好了。
So all this advice on culture and it feels so true based on everything I've seen.
基于我所看到的一切，所有这些关于文化的建议都感觉非常真实。
So tip one there is just you can't really change the culture.
所以提示一是你无法真正改变文化。
Maybe there's a little bit on the edges you could adjust.
也许你可以调整一些边缘。
It will come down and trickle down from the founder, CEO probably mostly, but just the founders in general.
它可能主要来自创始人、首席执行官，但一般来说只是创始人。
Molly Graham: And founder-CEO is probably the single biggest.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：创始人兼首席执行官可能是最大的一位。
Molly Graham: Co-founders, it depends a lot on the company.
Molly Graham：联合创始人，这很大程度上取决于公司。
Molly Graham: I think Stripe is probably very much like Patrick and John, but it's not every co-founder that has that level of power .
Molly Graham：我认为 Stripe 可能很像 Patrick 和 John，但并不是每个联合创始人都拥有这种程度的权力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And then the way you describe culture, I think it's the way Seth Godin talks about it too, who's also been on the podcast.
然后你描述文化的方式，我认为这也是赛斯·戈丁谈论它的方式，他也参加了播客。
How cool is that?
那有多酷？
Lenny Rachitsky: He said, "Culture is..." And what you said, "Culture is the way we do things around here.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：他说，“文化是……”而你说的，“文化是我们在这里做事的方式。
That's what culture is, is how we..." That's how people describe your culture is, "The way we do things around here."
这就是文化，就是我们……”人们就是这样描述你们的文化的，“我们在这里做事的方式。”
Molly Graham: I ran culture, whatever the hell that means, at Facebook for a hot second.
莫莉·格雷厄姆（Molly Graham）：我在 Facebook 曾一度热衷于管理文化，不管这意味着什么。
I literally haven't done a values exercise since.
从那以后我真的没有做过价值观练习。
And it sounds crazy, right?
这听起来很疯狂，对吧？
Because in theory, I know how to do this stuff.
因为从理论上讲，我知道如何做这些事情。
I don't really know how to do this stuff.
我真的不知道如何做这些事情。
But for me, the point is process and systems and how do we make decisions?
但对我来说，重点是流程和系统以及我们如何做出决策？
That's where culture actually lives.
这就是文化真正存在的地方。
It is what you do.
这就是你所做的。
It's how you hire.
这就是你招聘的方式。
It's how you fire.
这就是你如何开火。
It's who you don't hire.
这是你不雇用的人。
It's all of those decisions.
这就是所有这些决定。
That is culture.
那就是文化。
So whenever I'm working with a company or building a company, that's what I'm focused on, not on what's the shiny word that we're putting on the wall.
因此，每当我与一家公司合作或建立一家公司时，这就是我关注的重点，而不是我们挂在墙上的闪亮字样。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
So the way you're describing is, as you said, it's what you do.
因此，正如您所说，您所描述的方式就是您所做的。
It's not what you say?
这不是你说的吗？
Molly Graham: I'll give you two more that are helpful.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：我会给你另外两个有用的。
This one is a Mark Zuckerberg classic, but he has this very strong feeling that people don't escalate enough.
这是马克·扎克伯格的经典之作，但他有一种非常强烈的感觉，即人们升级得不够。
And he was very adamant about it at Facebook.
他在 Facebook 对此非常坚定。
And he brought it to CZI too where he was like, "Escalation is a tool." And he's like, "People get stuck.
他也把它带到了 CZI，他说，“升级是一种工具。”他说，“人们被困住了。
They get stuck with two people with equal power trying to solve a problem.
他们被两个拥有同等权力的人试图解决问题所困。
You can spend so much time bashing heads, going back and forth.
你可以花很多时间来来回回地敲头。
And actually what you just need to do is go up.
实际上你需要做的就是上升。
You need to go." The problem is that we think of escalation as, "I'm A and B and I are disagreeing.
你得走了。”问题在于，我们将升级视为“我是 A 和 B，但我不同意。
And so, I'm going to go up to C and tell on B.
因此，我要去 C 处告诉 B。
I'm going to go tattle to the teacher." That is not what escalation is.
我要去跟老师告状。”升级不是这样的。
What escalation is, "We disagree.
什么是升级，“我们不同意。
Neither one of us has enough power to make this decision.
我们谁都没有足够的权力做出这一决定。
Let's go to someone who does." My boss, my boss's boss, whoever it is.
我们去找能干的人吧。”我的老板，我老板的老板，不管是谁。
Molly Graham: As soon as you are stuck, escalate.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：一旦陷入困境，就升级。
Go together, go make your case to whoever it is, go together up.
一起去，去向任何人陈述你的情况，一起上去。
That is unlocking.
那就是解锁。
It's saving you a whole bunch of time.
它为您节省了大量时间。
And it's something that I've found as I've worked with companies and leaders in Glue Club.
这是我在与 Glue Club 的公司和领导者合作时发现的。
It's not a muscle that's very comfortable for people, but it's so smart.
这不是一块让人很舒服的肌肉，但它却是如此聪明。
And Mark has a lot of these, but that one I really took away because again, I think so many people think of escalation as bad, a failure, like, "I failed, so I had to escalate." No, it's a tool.
马克有很多这样的东西，但我真的拿走了那个，因为我再次认为很多人认为升级是糟糕的，是失败的，比如，“我失败了，所以我不得不升级。”不，它是一个工具。
It's what management is for.
这就是管理的目的。
They're there to unblock you.
他们是来为你解除封锁的。
Let them unblock you.
让他们解锁你。
Stop arguing over something you can't decide.
不要再为你无法决定的事情争论了。
Lenny Rachitsky: And they'll be so happy knowing you did not waste a week debating this and then just arguing and just looking at data.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们会很高兴知道你没有浪费一个星期的时间来辩论这个问题，然后只是争论和查看数据。
It's like, "Okay, I can just tell you exactly what we should do.
就像是，“好吧，我可以准确地告诉你我们应该做什么。
Let's go do that."
我们去做吧。”
Molly Graham: Exactly.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：没错。
You lack context or you lack power.
你缺乏背景或者你缺乏力量。
And then the last one actually is from Cheryl Sandberg, who I learned an enormous amount from, huge, was like going to business school without going to business school working with her.
最后一个实际上是来自谢丽尔·桑德伯格（Cheryl Sandberg），我从她那里学到了很多东西，巨大的，就像去商学院却没有和她一起工作一样。
But I say it a lot right now, so I'm going to say it on your podcast so maybe some people will hear me.
但我现在经常这么说，所以我会在你的播客上这么说，这样也许有些人会听到我的声音。
Growing more than 100% every year is a bad idea.
每年增长超过 100% 是个坏主意。
The happiest growth rate is 50%, 100% is manageable.
最幸福的增长率是50%，100%是可控的。
Anything more than doubling and you are signing yourself up for a world of pain.
任何超过一倍的数字都会让你陷入痛苦的世界。
And I have seen this over and over and over again.
我已经一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
I had to scream way louder about it five years ago than I do now because we've been through collectively a lot of pain and a lot of layoffs.
五年前我不得不比现在大声尖叫，因为我们共同经历了很多痛苦和很多裁员。
And obviously the combination of 2021 and then AI has led us to talk about unit economics and scaling with tools, not people.
显然，2021 年和人工智能的结合让我们谈论单位经济学和工具扩展，而不是人。
Molly Graham: But I still see companies and I'm still talking to founders that are like, "Yeah, we're 50 people and we're going to be 150 people next year." And I'm like, "Could you possibly do that with 100 people?" But here's what basically happens if you grow at more than 100%, which is you're growing too fast to de-dupe all the issues.
Molly Graham：但我仍然看到一些公司，我仍然在与创始人交谈，他们会说：“是的，我们有 50 名员工，明年我们将达到 150 名员工。”我想，“你能和 100 个人一起做吗？”但如果您的增长速度超过 100%，那么基本上会发生以下情况，即您的增长速度太快，无法消除所有重复问题。
So somebody posts this role, it actually turns out that that role is also being hired for on this other team.
所以有人发布了这个角色，实际上事实证明这个角色也在另一个团队中被雇用。
So you're hiring two people who more or less have the same job description and are assigned to the same number or the same problem, but nobody talked to each other.
因此，您雇用的两个人或多或少具有相同的工作描述，并被分配到相同的号码或相同的问题，但没有人互相交谈。
And those two people both show up and they're like, "I am doing this." And the person's like, "Wait, I thought I was doing that." Anyway, so then you've got all this...
这两个人都出现了，他们就像，“我正在做这个。”那个人会说，“等等，我以为我正在这么做。”无论如何，那么你就拥有了这一切......
And think about all the time and all the energy and all the money that goes into de-duping that.
并考虑一下用于重复数据删除的所有时间、所有精力和所有金钱。
Molly Graham: If you slow down, if you hire for quality and for real need versus the panic hiring, whatever your sales model spits out or whatever, you'll actually find leverage.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：如果你放慢脚步，如果你招聘的是质量和真正的需要而不是恐慌招聘，无论你的销售模式如何，你实际上都会找到杠杆。
You find, "Oh, I didn't need that person," or, "I didn't need this whole team," or, "I didn't need this whole function," or, "I can wait for that." So slow down.
你会发现，“哦，我不需要那个人”，或者“我不需要整个团队”，或者“我不需要整个职能”，或者“我可以等待”。所以慢点。
And again, these are all just guidelines in terms of the 50% is happy and 100% is manageable.
再说一次，这些都只是 50% 快乐和 100% 可控的指导方针。
But having seen enough of this, I can tell you these are good rules and you should pay attention to them.
但在看够了这些之后，我可以告诉你这些都是很好的规则，你应该注意它们。
And sometimes you're like, "I have to double or I have to more than double or I have to triple," or whatever.
有时你会说，“我必须加倍，或者我必须加倍以上，或者我必须加倍，”或者其他什么。
I'm like, "Okay, just ask a whole lot of questions as you open roles.
我说，“好吧，在职位空缺时问很多问题就可以了。
Ask a whole lot of questions as you hire because you will find duplication, you will find chaos coming in the front door."
在招聘时问很多问题，因为你会发现重复，你会发现前门出现混乱。”
Molly Graham: More people does not actually make you faster.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：更多的人实际上并不会让你跑得更快。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
We think it does.
我们认为确实如此。
It does not.
事实并非如此。
It makes it harder.
这让事情变得更加困难。
It makes it harder to get work done.
这使得完成工作变得更加困难。
It makes it slower.
它使它变慢。
So you should be scared of adding people, not like, "Oh, this is the answer to all my problems."
所以你应该害怕增加人员，而不是“哦，这是我所有问题的答案。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And just to be clear, you're talking about the growth of the company.
需要澄清的是，您谈论的是公司的成长。
So doubling in a year, bad idea.
一年内翻倍，这是个坏主意。
It's possible, but you're saying it's going to be very hard and painful and probably a really bad idea.
这是有可能的，但你会说这将非常困难和痛苦，而且可能是一个非常糟糕的主意。
Molly Graham: Yeah.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的。
More than doubling head count growth.
员工人数增长一倍多。
Molly Graham: Please feel free to do whatever you want with your business.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：请随意做您想做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just advice.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：只是建议。
This is top of mind because I just had the interview with Matt McGinnis, but so much of what he talked about is this resonates with what you're talking about.
这是我最关心的问题，因为我刚刚接受了马特·麦金尼斯的采访，但他谈论的大部分内容都与你所谈论的内容产生共鸣。
He talked a lot about under-resourcing your team-
他谈到了很多关于你的团队资源不足的问题-
Lenny Rachitsky: Leads to much better outcomes because people don't work on the low priority stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：会带来更好的结果，因为人们不会处理低优先级的事情。
They focus on only high priority stuff.
他们只关注高优先级的事情。
And the other is this idea of escalating.
另一个是升级的想法。
He talked a lot about that.
他对此谈了很多。
Just like, "Escalation is good.
就像，“升级是件好事。
Tell me when there's something I can help with, please.
有什么需要我帮忙的时候请告诉我。
I'm here waiting constantly-
我在这里一直等待着——
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So maybe for a final question, one of your former colleagues, Eric Antonow, who's just this epic dude that few people know about-
所以也许最后一个问题是，你的一位前同事埃里克·安托诺（Eric Antonow），他是一位很少有人知道的史诗般的家伙——
Lenny Rachitsky: That I've chatted with over the last few months because he knows so many people that come on this podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：过去几个月我一直和他聊天，因为他认识很多参加这个播客的人。
He's a former Facebook person, now at OpenAI.
他曾是 Facebook 员工，现供职于 OpenAI。
I asked him what I should ask you about and he told me something really insightful about you.
我问他应该问你什么，他告诉了我一些关于你的非常有见地的事情。
He said that you had this really massive growth spurt at Facebook, which you shared and talked about.
他说你在 Facebook 经历了如此巨大的增长，你分享并谈论了这一点。
And then after you leaving, you had this huge ambition to become COO, CEO, become this huge big deal boss person, just take over the world.
在你离开之后，你有一个巨大的野心，想要成为首席运营官、首席执行官，成为这个巨大的大生意老板，接管世界。
And then he noticed your ambitions significantly pivot to working on community building and helping people with their careers.
然后他注意到你的雄心主要集中在社区建设和帮助人们的职业生涯上。
And you turned down really big C-level role opportunities.
而且你拒绝了真正重要的 C 级职位机会。
And the way he described it is you were a dog that once thought you were cat.
他描述的方式是，你是一只曾经以为你是猫的狗。
And the other metaphor he used is you change from AC current to DC current, which I don't know exactly what that means.
他使用的另一个比喻是从交流电流变为直流电流，我不知道这到底意味着什么。
So does this resonate?
那么这是否引起共鸣呢？
And if so, just what happened there?
如果是这样，那里到底发生了什么？
Molly Graham: Eric is actually better at metaphors than I am, and I regularly rip his metaphors.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：埃里克实际上比我更擅长隐喻，我经常撕毁他的隐喻。
But yes, Eric Antonow, the least well-known, but most brilliant person in my life.
但是，是的，埃里克·安东诺（Eric Antonow）是我一生中最不知名但最聪明的人。
So I gave a talk at a company recently and somebody asked the question, "What's something you've changed your mind about?" And I was like, "Woof." But I actually talked about this because...
所以我最近在一家公司做了一次演讲，有人问了这个问题：“你改变主意的事情是什么？”我当时就想，“汪”。但我实际上谈论这个是因为......
So my brain is developing this model that is not done yet, but it's basically this idea that everybody has a proving phase to their career where you're proving to yourself and probably to your parents and some other people that you're good at stuff.
所以我的大脑正在开发这个尚未完成的模型，但基本上是这样的想法，每个人都有一个职业生涯的证明阶段，在这个阶段你要向自己证明，也可能向你的父母和其他一些人证明你擅长做某件事。
You're like, "I'm going to prove." And it's an important phase because you need to learn.
你会说，“我会证明。”这是一个重要的阶段，因为你需要学习。
All the stuff we talked about.
我们谈论过的所有事情。
You need to learn what you're good at.
你需要学习你擅长的事情。
You need to learn that you are good at things and that people should hire you for things and what are those things?
你需要知道你擅长做某事，人们应该因为某些事情而雇用你，这些事情是什么？
Molly Graham: But part of that phase is also doing what you think matters, what you think you should do.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：但这个阶段的一部分也是做你认为重要的事情，你认为你应该做的事情。
Family programming or career books tell you this is what you should do, titles and all that stuff.
家庭规划或职业书籍告诉你这是你应该做的，头衔和所有这些东西。
And then, I think everybody has a moment and I think this moment varies wildly in terms of when it hits people, where you hit some sort of wall or I don't know what it is, speed bump, something, and the world forces you to say, "Okay, I've proven myself and I'm good at this thing.
然后，我认为每个人都有这样的时刻，我认为这个时刻在击中人的时候有很大的不同，你撞到了某种墙壁，或者我不知道那是什么，减速带，什么，世界迫使你说，“好吧，我已经证明了自己，我很擅长这件事。
What do I want to do with it?" And for me, I spent 10 or 15 years proving to myself and to others that I was really good at this thing, basically working with brilliant founders to help bring their vision to life, "That's what you should hire me to do." That's what I was known for.
我想用它做什么？”对我来说，我花了 10 或 15 年的时间向自己和其他人证明我真的很擅长这件事，基本上是与杰出的创始人合作，帮助他们实现愿景，“这就是你应该雇用我做的事情。”这就是我出名的原因。
Molly Graham: And it turned out that that wasn't what I love doing anymore.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：事实证明那不再是我喜欢做的事情了。
And it was really, really hard to walk away from because there was a lot of shoulds.
摆脱它真的非常非常困难，因为有很多“应该”。
It was like, "You should take this job with this fancy title.
就像是，“你应该接受这份带有这个奇特头衔的工作。
People are going to think you're so cool." And you get to...
人们会认为你很酷。”然后你就可以...
I call it a LinkedIn crush where you're really excited to post the job on LinkedIn, but you're deeply unexcited about doing the job.
我将其称为“LinkedIn 迷恋”，即您非常高兴在 LinkedIn 上发布工作，但对完成这项工作却非常不感兴趣。
So you have all these LinkedIn crushes and you're like...
所以你在 LinkedIn 上迷恋过这些人，然后你就像……
And I vividly remember this one job that I turned down where I had to go for many walks.
我清楚地记得我拒绝了这份工作，因为我不得不去很多次散步。
And what I was repeating over and over again to myself was, "What does this get you that you don't already have?
我一遍又一遍地对自己重复的是：“这会给你带来什么你还没有拥有的东西？
What does this get you that you don't already have?" And I think, for me, it was this realization that these things that fed me early in my career just didn't feed me anymore, that I didn't get joy and excitement out of doing these jobs anymore, and I wasn't scared.
这会给你带来什么你还没有的东西？”我认为，对我来说，正是这种认识，这些在我职业生涯早期为我提供帮助的事情不再为我提供帮助，我不再从做这些工作中获得快乐和兴奋，而且我不再害怕。
Molly Graham: So it led me actually on a very long, windy journey, a founder journey, even though I have trouble with that title, just like the influencer title, to figure out what I wanted to build.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：所以它实际上带领我踏上了一段漫长而艰难的旅程，一个创始人之旅，尽管我在这个头衔上遇到了麻烦，就像影响者头衔一样，以弄清楚我想建立什么。
And what I would've told you I wanted to build three years ago is actually not what I'm doing today, but through a lot of really fun experiments and a journey that never ends, what I've discovered is that what I love doing is building safe spaces for leaders to learn and grow, but also to find sanity and connection in a world that's kind of insane, whether it's working in a startup or some other kind of insanity, but that feeds me and there's nothing I love more than that, and I could not have told you that three years ago, but, to Eric's point, it really took a lot of work to switch currents or switch myself from a dog to a cat or whatever his metaphor is.
我三年前告诉你我想要建立的东西实际上不是我今天正在做的事情，而是通过很多非常有趣的实验和永无止境的旅程，我发现我喜欢做的事情是为领导者学习和成长建立安全的空间，同时也在一个有点疯狂的世界中找到理智和联系，无论是在初创公司工作还是其他类型的疯狂，但这滋养了我，没有什么比这更让我喜欢的了，三年前我不可能告诉你这一点，但是，就埃里克的观点而言，改变潮流或将自己从狗转变为猫或无论他的隐喻是什么，确实需要做很多工作。
And I think it's the work of it's ongoing work, but it's that thing of what do I want versus what do I think people expect of me?
我认为这是正在进行的工作，但问题是我想要什么与我认为人们对我的期望是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much depth there.
Lenny Rachitsky：那里有很多深度。
This could be another entire podcast conversation talking through this journey, but I'm going to close with a note from your partner, Sarah.
这可能是另一个完整的播客对话，讲述了这段旅程，但我将以你的搭档莎拉的留言结束。
She told me that she has this sticker on her notebook with three pieces of advice that you gave her when she started at OpenAI.
她告诉我，她的笔记本上贴着这张贴纸，上面贴着她刚加入 OpenAI 时你给她的三条建议。
Get to know your customer, they have the answer; be patient because everything is going to change; and just keep trying.
了解你的客户，他们有答案；要有耐心，因为一切都会改变；并继续努力。
So just as a final question, is there anything along those lines that you think might be helpful for people to hear or is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with?
那么，作为最后一个问题，您认为有哪些内容可能对人们听到有帮助，或者您还有其他什么想要分享或留给听众的内容吗？
Molly Graham: Part of what I think is so important to realize inside of scaling and changing companies and the world is some things will always be true.
Molly Graham：我认为，在公司和世界的规模化和变革中，要认识到有些事情永远是正确的，这一点非常重要。
And part of what I was saying to Sarah in the "get to know the customer, they have the answer" is, whatever bullshit is going on around you and whatever walls and ceiling are being rearranged this week, the customer is never going to change.
我在“了解客户，他们有答案”中对莎拉说的部分内容是，无论你周围发生了什么废话，无论本周重新布置墙壁和天花板，客户永远不会改变。
That's a thing that will never change.
这是永远不会改变的事情。
And I think finding those immovable objects, those compasses in the face of a storm, which being inside of a scaling company in a startup feels like a tornado.
我认为在初创公司的规模化公司内部找到那些不可移动的物体，那些面对暴风雨的指南针感觉就像龙卷风。
And I think OpenAI is extra special on that front.
我认为 OpenAI 在这方面特别特别。
You have to find these guiding lights that get you through that storm.
你必须找到这些指路明灯，帮助你度过这场风暴。
And I think it's sort of the same thing as "Serve the business, not the people." What are the things that will always be true?
我认为这与“为企业服务，而不是为人民服务”有点相似。有哪些事情是永远正确的？
We are here to do this.
我们来这里就是为了做到这一点。
We are here to serve the customer.
我们在这里为客户服务。
Molly Graham: And then the other piece of the three things that she wrote down is, I think that we, as humans, we seek stability.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：她写下的三件事中的另一件事是，我认为我们作为人类，我们寻求稳定。
Our brains would like things to stop changing.
我们的大脑希望事情停止变化。
We would like things to stay the same.
我们希望事情保持不变。
And that is just not a reality inside of companies that are growing and changing as fast as OpenAI or a lot of the companies today that are being built.
对于像 OpenAI 这样快速发展和变化的公司或当今许多正在建立的公司来说，这并不是现实。
So actually, you need to start to expect instability.
所以实际上，你需要开始期待不稳定。
You need to start to just assume things are going to change.
你需要开始假设事情将会发生变化。
Assume you're going to have a new boss in six months.
假设六个月后你将有一位新老板。
I talk about this a lot when I talk to folks at OpenAI, "You need to stop expecting that anything's going to be the same in six months or a year.
当我与 OpenAI 的人们交谈时，我经常谈论这一点，“你需要停止期望六个月或一年后一切都会一样。
You will have a different job.
你将会有一份不同的工作。
You will have a different boss."
你将会有一个不同的老板。”
Molly Graham: How do you prepare for that?
莫莉·格雷厄姆：你为此做了哪些准备？
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
How do you almost see the instability as stability because it's the only thing that is definitely going to be true.
你如何将不稳定视为稳定，因为这是唯一肯定会发生的事情。
And part of that is to just keep going.
其中一部分就是继续前进。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
To just find these lights and these compasses or whatever metaphor sticks with you and focus on those because whatever is happening around you, you just got to keep moving forward and keep learning as much as you can because that's the real opportunity.
找到这些灯和这些指南针或任何与你有关的隐喻并专注于这些，因为无论你周围发生什么，你都必须继续前进并尽可能多地学习，因为那是真正的机会。
Whatever happens to the company, however successful it is, all that you take away from it...
无论公司发生什么，无论它多么成功，你从中得到的一切......
I always say all that you take away from it is people that like working with you and want to work with you again and what you learned.
我总是说，你从中得到的只是那些喜欢和你一起工作、想再次和你一起工作的人以及你学到的东西。
That's it.
就是这样。
You might hopefully take a bunch of money, but you might not.
你可能希望能拿走一大笔钱，但也可能不会。
So people and what you learned, that's it.
所以人和你学到的东西就是这样。
Focus on that.
专注于此。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's all about the friends you made along the way.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一切都与你一路上结识的朋友有关。
That old line is true.
那句老话是对的。
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Molly, I feel like we've gone for so long and we've just scratched the surface.
莫莉，我觉得我们已经走了这么久，但我们才刚刚触及皮毛。
I'd love to have you back to go deeper on a lot of this stuff.
我很想让你回来更深入地了解很多这些东西。
I'm going to skip the lightning round because we've gone long and I want to keep people from having to listen to more.
我将跳过闪电回合，因为我们已经走了很长一段时间，我想让人们不必听更多。
So I'm just going to end with, what should people know about what you're working on?
所以我最后想问的是，人们应该了解你正在做什么？
Where can people go find you online?
人们可以在网上哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Molly Graham: You can find me on LinkedIn and you can find me on Substack.
Molly Graham：您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我，也可以在 Substack 上找到我。
I have a Substack called Lessons that I'm slowly trying to turn into a community where we can talk about things, the real stuff.
我有一个名为 Lessons 的子堆栈，我正在慢慢尝试将其变成一个社区，我们可以在其中讨论事物，真正的东西。
And you can find me at Glue Club, which, if you're a leader inside of one of these crazy companies that's changing all the time, we can be a great home for you.
你可以在 Glue Club 找到我，如果你是这些不断变化的疯狂公司之一的领导者，我们可以成为你的美好家园。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the URL there just for folks to check out?
Lenny Rachitsky：供人们查看的 URL 是什么？
Molly Graham: Yeah, exactly.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：是的，完全正确。
And in terms of people, what people can do to be useful to me, I love helping leaders with problems.
就人而言，人们可以做些什么对我有用，我喜欢帮助领导者解决问题。
I really get a lot of energy out of unsticking people and helping people feel supported and seen and helping them grow.
我确实从摆脱人们的束缚、帮助人们感受到支持和被看见以及帮助他们成长中获得了很多能量。
I do that through Glue Club.
我通过 Glue Club 来做到这一点。
So if you're a leader that feels like you want some sanity and some support in the face of whatever tornado you're in, that's a great place to come.
因此，如果您是一名领导者，在面对任何龙卷风时，感觉自己需要一些理智和支持，那么这是一个很好的选择。
But the same is true of Substack.
但 Substack 也是如此。
So if Glue Club isn't for you, come on over to Substack.
因此，如果 Glue Club 不适合您，请前往 Substack。
I've opened up a bunch of channels to just talk about stuff, listen to people's problems, answer questions because I love helping people.
我开辟了很多渠道来谈论事情、倾听人们的问题、回答问题，因为我喜欢帮助人们。
And I think it's a complicated moment right now to be a leader and to figure out which way is up.
我认为现在是一个复杂的时刻，对于成为一名领导者并弄清楚哪条路是正确的。
So come on over.
所以过来吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Molly, thank you so much for being here.
莫莉，非常感谢你来到这里。
Molly Graham: Thank you, Lenny.
莫莉·格雷厄姆：谢谢你，莱尼。
This was really fun.
这真的很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。