'Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product, Figma)'

Lenny Rachitsky: I asked on Twitter, "Who's the best product manager you've worked with?" You were the most mentioned.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在 Twitter 上问：“与你合作过的最好的产品经理是谁？”你是被提及最多的。

Mihika Kapoor: My take is that your scope is the world.

米希卡·卡普尔：我的看法是，你的视野是整个世界。

Nothing should ever perceive as being out of bounds.

任何事情都不应该被视为越界。

Lenny Rachitsky: VP of product at Figma told me, "Mahika is really great at creating a vision and getting people to see what she sees."

Lenny Rachitsky：Figma 产品副总裁告诉我，“Mahika 非常擅长创造愿景并让人们看到她所看到的东西。”

Mihika Kapoor: We lean heavily into designing and prototyping even before a project gets a green light.

Mihika Kapoor：甚至在项目获得批准之前，我们就非常注重设计和原型制作。

If you and your team do your job correctly, what does the world look like?

如果你和你的团队正确地完成工作，世界会是什么样子？

Lenny Rachitsky: Say somebody wants to make their culture more entrepreneurial, what does it take?

Lenny Rachitsky：假设有人想让他们的文化更具创业精神，需要什么？

Mihika Kapoor: We have this concept called Maker Week, which is our internal hackathon, giving people the breathing space to see ahead into the horizon and be wildly ambitious.

Mihika Kapoor：我们有一个名为“创客周”的概念，这是我们的内部黑客马拉松，为人们提供喘息的空间，让他们能够展望未来并雄心勃勃。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Mahika Kapoor.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是玛希卡·卡普尔。

Mahika is a design engineering PM hybrid at Figma, where she was an early PM on FigJam, and is now spearheading development of a new product that the company's going to launch in June.

Mahika 是 Figma 的一名设计工程 PM 混合型人员，她是 FigJam 的早期 PM，现在正在带头开发该公司将于 6 月推出的新产品。

She's known as the go-to person at Figma for leading new zero-to-one products.

她因领导新的零到一产品而被称为 Figma 的核心人物。

And as you'll hear in our conversation, is beloved by everybody that works with her.

正如您将在我们的谈话中听到的那样，她受到与她一起工作的每个人的喜爱。

Prior to Figma, Mahika founded Design Nation, a national nonprofit that democratizes undergraduate student access to a design education, and led several products and launches at Meta, focused on commerce and creators.

在加入 Figma 之前，Mahika 创立了 Design Nation，这是一家全国性非营利组织，旨在让本科生获得设计教育的机会更加民主化，并在 Meta 上领导并推出了多项产品，专注于商业和创作者。

Lenny Rachitsky: On this podcast, I bring on a lot of amazing senior product leaders, but there's so much we can learn from stellar on-the-ground product managers like Mahika.

Lenny Rachitsky：在这个播客中，我邀请了很多令人惊叹的高级产品领导者，但我们可以从像 Mahika 这样的出色的实地产品经理那里学到很多东西。

In our conversation, we drill into many of the skills that Mahika has cultivated that have contributed to her success, including how to develop a compelling vision, get buy-in for your ideas, how to develop conviction, empathy, the importance of culture, and how to create a culture on your team and within the company, and also how to deal with the constant change that happens within successful organizations.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了 Mahika 培养的许多为她的成功做出贡献的技能，包括如何制定令人信服的愿景、如何获得对你的想法的认可、如何培养信念、同理心、文化的重要性、如何在团队和公司内部创造一种文化，以及如何应对成功组织内发生的不断变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: We also spent a bunch of time on how to effectively bring new ideas in your company from zero to one to launch, including getting to a bunch of the stories behind some of Figma's most successful products and features, and how many of them began at hackathons and Maker Weeks.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们还花了很多时间研究如何有效地将新想法引入您的公司，从零到一再到发布，包括了解 Figma 一些最成功的产品和功能背后的一系列故事，以及其中有多少是从黑客马拉松和创客周开始的。

Mahika is a truly special product manager and leader, and I feel fortunate to have had this chance to learn from her.

Mahika 是一位真正特别的产品经理和领导者，我很幸运有这个机会向她学习。

We went quite long on this conversation, but honestly, this could have gone for another two hours.

我们聊了很长时间，但老实说，这可能还要持续两个小时。

With that, I bring you Mahika Kapoor, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了玛希卡·卡普尔 (Mahika Kapoor)。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Paragon, the embedded integration platform for B2B SaaS product development teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Paragon 为您带来，Paragon 是面向 B2B SaaS 产品开发团队的嵌入式集成平台。

Are your users constantly requesting new integrations with other SaaS platforms that they use?

您的用户是否不断请求与他们使用的其他 SaaS 平台进行新的集成？

Unfortunately, native product integrations take months of engineering to build, and the maintenance never ends.

不幸的是，本机产品集成需要花费数月的工程时间来构建，并且维护永无止境。

Paragon enables your engineering team to ship integrations seven times faster than building in-house by removing the complexities around authentication, messy third-party APIs, and debugging integration errors.

Paragon 消除了身份验证、混乱的第三方 API 和调试集成错误方面的复杂性，使您的工程团队能够比内部构建的速度快七倍。

Engineering teams at companies like Copy.ai, Cinch, TLDB, and over 100 other SaaS companies are using Paragon so they can focus their efforts on core product features, not integrations.

Copy.ai、Cinch、TLDB 和其他 100 多家 SaaS 公司的工程团队正在使用 Paragon，这样他们就可以将精力集中在核心产品功能上，而不是集成上。

The result?

结果呢？

Their shipping integrations on demand, which has led to higher product usage, better retention, and more customer upsells.

他们按需进行运输集成，从而提高了产品使用率、更好的保留率和更多的客户追加销售。

Visit useparagon.com/lenny to see how Paragon can help you go to market faster with integrations today.

请访问 useparagon.com/lenny，了解 Paragon 如何通过当今的集成帮助您更快地进入市场。

That's useparagon.

这就是 useparagon。

com/lenny.

com/莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Lenny's Job Board.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Lenny 的求职委员会为您带来。

As many of you may or may not know, for the past couple of years I've been running a recruiting service.

你们中的许多人可能知道也可能不知道，在过去的几年里我一直在经营招聘服务。

I've introduced over 30 companies to their next hire and helped build a candidate pipeline for tons more.

我已经向 30 多家公司介绍了他们的下一位员工，并帮助建立了更多的候选人渠道。

I've been fortunate to work with companies like Ramp, Figma, Shopify, many more, plus a bunch of exciting young startups connecting each to extremely talented engineers, designers, and product leaders that make up my community.

我很幸运能够与 Ramp、Figma、Shopify 等公司以及一群令人兴奋的年轻初创公司合作，将每个公司与构成我社区的极其才华横溢的工程师、设计师和产品领导者联系起来。

Because of its success and the value that it's driven to companies and to people looking for jobs, we're ramping up the service in a big way.

由于它的成功以及它为公司和求职者带来的价值，我们正在大力加强这项服务。

I'm beta testing a bespoke headhunting style service and I'm opening up a handful of slots.

我正在测试一项定制猎头风格的服务，并且正在开放一些职位。

We work with a select group of companies each month.

我们每个月都会与一些精选的公司合作。

If you need to make a key product hire or quickly expand your team, I'd love to see if I can help head to Lennysjobs.com/talent and hit meet candidates to get started lennysjobs.com/talent.

如果您需要招聘关键产品或快速扩展您的团队，我很乐意看看我是否可以帮助您前往 Lennysjobs.com/talent 并点击与候选人会面以开始使用 lennysjobs.com/talent。

Lenny Rachitsky: Mahika, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Mahika，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Mihika Kapoor: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

米希卡·卡普尔：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I am a huge fan of the podcast and really excited to be chatting today.

我是播客的超级粉丝，很高兴今天能聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to set expectations, this is going to be a Mahika love-fest podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了设定期望，这将是一个 Mahika 爱情盛宴播客。

And what I want to try to do with our time here is have an archeology of Mahika to understand what you've learned about product and building product, in particular because you are thriving at Figma, which is one of the most interesting and successful tech companies in the world with one of the best product teams in the world.

我想利用我们在这里的时间尝试做的是对 Mahika 进行考古，以了解您所学到的有关产品和构建产品的知识，特别是因为您在 Figma 蓬勃发展，这是世界上最有趣、最成功的科技公司之一，拥有世界上最好的产品团队之一。

So, basically, I just want to learn as much as I can from what you've learned and what you've done in order to create more Mahikas in the world.

所以，基本上，我只想从你们所学到的和所做的事情中尽可能多地学习，以便在世界上创造更多的 Mahikas。

That's kind of my goal here because I feel like that would .

这就是我的目标，因为我觉得那会的。

Lenny Rachitsky: In a very cool way, not in a creepy way.

Lenny Rachitsky：以一种非常酷的方式，而不是以一种令人毛骨悚然的方式。

So, what I did to prep for this conversation is I, as I said, reached out to a bunch of your colleagues at Figma to ask what you're especially strong at.

因此，正如我所说，我为这次对话做的准备是联系了你们在 Figma 的一群同事，询问你们特别擅长什么。

And what I want to do is kind of go through some of these key skills, and they're essentially the core attributes of great product managers and learn from you, learn from what you learned about how doing these things well, and just what you do to be successful at these things.

我想做的是回顾其中一些关键技能，它们本质上是优秀产品经理的核心属性，并向你学习，从你学到的如何做好这些事情，以及你如何在这些事情上取得成功。

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Mihika Kapoor: That sounds good.

米希卡·卡普尔：听起来不错。

One thing to call out is that I think when I think about my own PM style, it's definitely not a tick-all-the-boxes style.

需要指出的一件事是，我认为当我思考自己的 PM 风格时，它绝对不是一种勾选所有框的风格。

There are plenty of things that I'm very bad at that PMs are traditionally supposed to be great at, so happy to chat about what makes sense.

有很多事情我很不擅长，而传统上 PM 应该很擅长，所以很乐意谈论有意义的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that's actually really cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这真的很酷。

So, let's save that for the end, the things you think you're bad at.

所以，让我们把那些你认为自己不擅长的事情留到最后再说吧。

The way I see this is a reverse performance review.

我的看法是反向绩效评估。

Here's all the things you're amazing at, let's just go spend all our time on that.

这就是你所擅长的所有事情，让我们把所有的时间都花在这上面吧。

But I think that's going to be really important.

但我认为这非常重要。

But just along those lines, what I'm hearing is there's a sense of do the things you are good at really well.

但正是沿着这些思路，我听到的是一种把自己擅长的事情做得很好的感觉。

This is a trend on the podcast, is lean into your strengths.

这是播客上的一个趋势，是倾斜你的优势。

Is that the way you see it?

你是这样看的吗？

Do you have thoughts along those lines of just the fact that you've been successful, knowing you have these things you're not amazing at?

你是否有这样的想法：你已经成功了，但你知道自己有这些并不令人惊奇的事情？

Then we'll talk.

然后我们再谈谈。

Mihika Kapoor: It's important to have two things.

米希卡·卡普尔：有两件事很重要。

One is of course lean into your strengths.

其中之一当然是发挥自己的优势。

I think that PMing is traditionally a sort of generalist role and people fall into it in a number of ways.

我认为项目经理传统上是一种通才角色，人们会通过多种方式陷入其中。

But most often than not, I hear people fall into it by trying a bunch of other things and then realizing that, "Oh, hey, maybe this PM thing makes more sense for me." So, for me personally, it was I have always been a very left brain, right brain kind of a person.

但大多数情况下，我听到人们因为尝试了很多其他事情而陷入困境，然后意识到，“哦，嘿，也许这个 PM 的事情对我来说更有意义。”所以，就我个人而言，我一直是一个左脑右脑的人。

I majored in CS and minored in visual arts.

我主修计算机科学，辅修视觉艺术。

And when I worked as a software engineer, I really missed the design side, and when I worked as a designer, I missed the technical.

当我担任软件工程师时，我真的错过了设计方面，而当我担任设计师时，我错过了技术。

And moving into product was a really great way to kind of straddle both and have more touch points across the product development cycle.

进入产品领域确实是一种跨越两者并在整个产品开发周期中拥有更多接触点的好方法。

And so, I think that based on how you fell into it, you might have different spikes and different strengths and leaning into those is really important.

因此，我认为根据你如何陷入其中，你可能会有不同的峰值和不同的优势，并且倾向于这些非常重要。

But for the other things, it's also of course important to have a growth mindset and to constantly be conquering what comes next.

但对于其他事情来说，拥有成长心态并不断征服接下来的事情当然也很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

Okay, so I'll save the stuff you think you're bad at for later.

好吧，我会把你认为你不擅长的东西留到以后再说。

Let's start with the stuff you're basic at.

让我们从您最基础的内容开始。

Okay.

好的。

So, the first is vision.

所以，首先是愿景。

So, Sho Kuwamoto, VP of product at Figma told me that, "Mahika is really great at creating a vision and getting people to see what she sees.

Figma 产品副总裁 Sho Kuwamoto 告诉我，“Mahika 非常擅长创造愿景并让人们看到她所看到的东西。

She's working on a new project now and put together one of the best pitches I've ever seen internally at what it could become, why it'd be differentiated, et cetera.

她现在正在开发一个新项目，并整理了我在内部见过的最好的项目之一，内容包括它可能会变成什么样子、为什么它会与众不同等等。

And like every new project, this had up and downs, but she's incredibly driven to keep the flame alive throughout these ups and downs." Can you just talk about what you've learned about doing this well, creating a compelling vision, getting people excited, getting buy-in for big ideas?

就像每个新项目一样，这个项目也有起有落，但她在这些起起落落中都非常有动力让火焰保持活力。”您能谈谈您在做好这件事、创造令人信服的愿景、让人们兴奋、获得大创意的支持方面学到了什么吗？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, absolutely.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的，绝对如此。

So, my take is that vision is everything.

所以，我的看法是，愿景就是一切。

It is really important to create a vision that you believe in, that your team believes in and that your company believes in.

创造一个你相信、你的团队相信、你的公司相信的愿景非常重要。

Because the reality of the product development cycle is that it's so messy, it's so chaotic.

因为产品开发周期的现实是非常混乱、非常混乱。

You're going to have extreme highs and extreme lows.

你将会经历极端的高点和极端的低点。

You're going to march in a certain direction only to hear from your users that it might just be the wrong direction, and totally pivot.

您将朝着某个方向前进，却从用户那里听到这可能是错误的方向，然后完全转向。

And in order to ensure that moments that are not discouraging, but rather, learning opportunities for your team team, it's so important to be anchored on that singular vision because then any step along the way feels like forward progress.

为了确保那些时刻不会令人沮丧，而是为您的团队提供学习机会，扎根于单一愿景非常重要，因为这样一路走来的任何一步都感觉像是向前进步。

Mihika Kapoor: So, first, just want to underscore the importance of having that vision and that perspective on if you and your team do your job correctly what does the world look like?

米希卡·卡普尔：所以，首先，我想强调拥有这样的愿景和观点的重要性，如果你和你的团队正确地完成工作，世界会是什么样子？

In terms of crafting a compelling vision, I think that there's sort of a few aspects.

在制定令人信服的愿景方面，我认为有几个方面。

The first is that you cannot go into a vacuum and come out with a compelling vision that does not exist.

首先，你不能进入真空并得出一个不存在的令人信服的愿景。

You have to be fundamentally inseparable from your users, and also, fundamentally inseparable from your team.

您必须从根本上与您的用户密不可分，并且从根本上与您的团队密不可分。

And so, I think that there is sort of this important cross-pollination of functions that is really important in crafting a compelling vision.

因此，我认为这种重要的职能交叉对于制定令人信服的愿景非常重要。

You want to always ensure that there are research insights that help you feel what a user is feeling.

您希望始终确保有研究见解可以帮助您感受用户的感受。

You want to ensure that there are beautiful designs and prototypes that help communicate what this future world looks like, and you also want to root it in engineering and feasibility.

您希望确保有漂亮的设计和原型来帮助传达未来世界的样子，并且您还希望将其植根于工程和可行性。

And you want to be constantly, even in the vision phase, assuring that what you're marching after is something that is achievable and something that you can work towards.

即使在愿景阶段，您也希望始终确保您所追求的目标是可以实现的，并且是您可以努力实现的目标。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, I think a lot of folks when they think about visioning, they kind of think about, "Okay, how do we start from scratch and learn about the user and then translate that into designs and then translate that into engineering?" And it becomes this very almost linear process.

Mihika Kapoor：所以，我认为很多人在考虑愿景时都会想，“好吧，我们如何从头开始并了解用户，然后将其转化为设计，然后将其转化为工程？”它变成了这个几乎线性的过程。

And I think that to the extent that you can have this cross-pollination of ideas and people working together, that leads to a really strong vision.

我认为，在某种程度上，你可以让思想和人们一起工作，这会带来真正强大的愿景。

And there's this book that I love called The Medici Effect, which basically talks about how when people come from different places and you have that confluence of ideas, that leads to innovation at the end of the day.

我喜欢这本书，叫做《美第奇效应》，它基本上讨论了当人们来自不同的地方并且你的想法融合在一起时，最终会带来创新。

Mihika Kapoor: The second piece is, okay, once you have your vision, once you have talked to your users and built up your perspective and things like that, it's like how do you communicate it internally and how do you help everyone around you see what you're seeing?

Mihika Kapoor：第二个问题是，好吧，一旦你有了自己的愿景，一旦你与用户交谈并建立了你的观点以及类似的事情，就像你如何在内部进行沟通以及如何帮助你周围的每个人看到你所看到的一样？

And I think something that's really unique about Figma is that it is a fundamentally very, very detail-oriented culture.

我认为 Figma 的真正独特之处在于它从根本上来说是一种非常非常注重细节的文化。

And it's also a company that very much practices what it preaches in terms of the future being visual communication.

这也是一家非常践行其所宣扬的视觉传达未来的公司。

And so, I've found that words will only get you so far.

所以，我发现言语只能让你走这么远。

So, when I put together a vision with my team at Figma, it's all about not just your traditional, "Okay, here are pain points.

因此，当我与 Figma 的团队一起制定愿景时，这不仅仅是传统意义上的“好吧，这是痛点。

And then, here are solutions.

然后，这里是解决方案。

And then, here is the timeline and costing." But rather how can you bring all of those things together and how can a vision pitch effectively be pain point, solution, proof point, pain point solution proof point?

然后，这是时间表和成本。”而是如何将所有这些事情整合在一起，以及愿景如何有效地成为痛点、解决方案、证明点、痛点解决方案证明点？

Mihika Kapoor: Because at the end of the day, simply describing a product idea in words is not as compelling as seeing a testimonial from a user on top of a prototype or a mock, and really feeling the pain points.

Mihika Kapoor：因为归根结底，简单地用文字描述产品创意并不像在原型或模拟上看到用户的推荐并真正感受到痛点那样引人注目。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example that we could talk about?

Lenny Rachitsky：有一个我们可以讨论的例子吗？

I know you can't talk about the product you're working on yet, but from the past of a vision that you crafted maybe to share what the vision was or how you came to that to make this even more real?

我知道你还不能谈论你正在开发的产品，但是从你过去制定的愿景来看，也许是为了分享这个愿景是什么，或者你是如何实现这个愿景，让这个愿景变得更加真实的？

Mihika Kapoor: So, before I was working on the new product, I was working on the FigJam team, and I was an early member of the FigJam team.

Mihika Kapoor：所以，在我开发新产品之前，我在 FigJam 团队工作，而且我是 FigJam 团队的早期成员。

And whiteboarding was something that really took off during the pandemic because it was the first time that people were not together in office, couldn't jam together, couldn't just throw up a whiteboard behind them physically.

白板在大流行期间真正流行起来，因为这是人们第一次不在办公室里，不能挤在一起，不能只是在他们身后扔一块白板。

And so, there was kind of this question of, okay, how do you combat these disparate teammates and pull them together into a common space?

所以，有这样一个问题，好吧，你如何与这些不同的队友战斗并将他们聚集到一个共同的空间？

And I think that when we think about FigJam and what success might look like for FigJam, a part of it that I was really invested in was the meetings experience.

我认为，当我们思考 FigJam 以及 FigJam 的成功可能会是什么样子时，我真正投入的一部分是会议体验。

And specifically, what the world would look like if we were successful at bringing people together into a common space?

具体来说，如果我们成功地将人们聚集到一个共同的空间中，世界会是什么样子？

Mihika Kapoor: And one of the early insights was, okay, what is the most common meeting that takes place in a FigJam file?

Mihika Kapoor：早期的见解之一是，FigJam 文件中最常见的会议是什么？

It's a brainstorm, right?

这是一场头脑风暴，对吧？

It's like you have a bunch of people, you've coming together and they're dropping a bunch of stickies and stuff like that.

就好像你有一群人，你聚集在一起，他们扔了一堆便签之类的东西。

And so, you have this proof point of an activity that works really well inside of a FigJam file.

因此，您就有了在 FigJam 文件中运行良好的活动的证据。

But then, at the same time, something that's really interesting about FigJam, people often ask, "Oh, you guys are Figma.

但与此同时，FigJam 真正有趣的一点是，人们经常会问，“哦，你们是 Figma。

How do you guys use Figma as a company?" And it's kind of interesting because I feel like we use Figma the way that everyone uses Figma, but we use FigJam on steroids.

你们如何使用 Figma 作为一家公司？”这很有趣，因为我觉得我们使用 Figma 的方式与每个人使用 Figma 的方式相同，但我们使用 FigJam 的方式却更加出色。

Every single activity in this company is done in FigJam.

该公司的每一项活动都是在FigJam 中完成的。

Our product reviews are in there, our Gantt charts are in there, our bug bashes are in there.

我们的产品评论在那里，我们的甘特图在那里，我们的 bug 攻击在那里。

Every single thing is in FigJam.

每一件事情都在 FigJam 中。

Mihika Kapoor: And there was this gap between the way that we were using FigJam as a company and the way that the rest of the world was using it, but brainstorms were working.

Mihika Kapoor：我们作为一家公司使用 FigJam 的方式与世界其他地方使用它的方式之间存在差距，但头脑风暴正在发挥作用。

And so, you kind of think, "Okay, what's unique about a brainstorm?" And you talk to your users and you're like, "Why does a brainstorm make so much more sense in a FigJam file than anything else?" And what it comes down to is brainstorms are this incredibly democratizing process.

所以，你会想，“好吧，头脑风暴有什么独特之处？”当你与你的用户交谈时，你会想，“为什么在 FigJam 文件中进行头脑风暴比其他任何东西都更有意义？”归根结底，头脑风暴就是这个令人难以置信的民主化过程。

It's this process where ideas can come from anywhere, where it's not the loudest or the most important person in the room who's doing the talking, but it's everyone altogether.

在这个过程中，想法可以来自任何地方，发言的不是房间里声音最大或最重要的人，而是所有人。

And you're able to elicit reactions from people who are more quiet in a meeting or people who may prefer to ideate on their own before coming out to everyone and things like that.

而且你能够引起会议中比较安静的人或可能更喜欢在向所有人坦白之前自己思考的人的反应。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, we started with the seed of brainstorms being this highly democratic process.

米希卡·卡普尔：因此，我们从头脑风暴的种子开始，成为这个高度民主的过程。

And what you see is that in most other scenarios, meetings are very one way.

您会看到，在大多数其他场景中，会议的方式非常单一。

You have one person talking, and everyone else reacting.

只有一个人在说话，其他人都在做出反应。

This is true of a team kickoff.

团队开球就是如此。

This is true of an all-hands.

这对于全体人员来说都是如此。

This is true of basically every sort of scenario.

基本上所有场景都是如此。

And so, what we fundamentally started marching towards was how can we create this world where the generative nature of a brainstorm is basically the norm in other kinds of meetings.

因此，我们从根本上开始迈向的是如何创造一个头脑风暴的生成本质基本上是其他类型会议的常态的世界。

Where a team kickoff is not just a PM and a designer handing mocks to an engineer, but it's everyone leaving stickies and everyone commenting at the same time, or everyone leaving...

团队启动不仅仅是 PM 和设计师将模拟交给工程师，而是每个人都留下便利贴，每个人同时发表评论，或者每个人都离开......

Mihika Kapoor: We have this ritual called Kudos Boards inside of FigJam, where everyone will shower each other with love and just kind call out their teammates for what they've done over the last week or so.

Mihika Kapoor：我们在 FigJam 中有一个名为“荣誉板”的仪式，每个人都会互相表达爱意，并善意地赞扬他们的队友在过去一周左右所做的事情。

And so how can we ensure that those kind of rituals are in our templates and that we're teaching people how to take any meeting and make it more democratic?

那么，我们如何确保这些仪式在我们的模板中，并且我们正在教人们如何参加任何会议并使会议更加民主？

And then, you anchor on this vision around, okay, what does a more democratic workplace look like and how can we get people to anchor around that and how can we get people to get into the flow?

然后，你将这一愿景锚定在一个更加民主的工作场所是什么样子，我们如何让人们围绕这一愿景以及我们如何让人们融入其中？

So, then we started launching features like music, like voting, that really help you get into flow when you're in that pile together.

因此，我们开始推出音乐、投票等功能，当你们在一起时，这些功能确实可以帮助您进入心流状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is such a cool example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很酷的例子。

I'm trying to be this archeologist studying what you're describing and breaking it apart.

我正在努力成为一名考古学家，研究你所描述的内容并将其分解。

So, what I'm hearing essentially is there's this insight that you find of, "Oh, here's a way we should think about the way future of work.

所以，我听到的本质上是你发现的这种见解，“哦，这是我们应该思考未来工作方式的一种方式。

It should be more democratic," building on this idea of brainstorming, which is one of the most inspiring ways of working where it's not just someone sitting in a silo.

它应该更加民主”，建立在头脑风暴的理念之上，这是最鼓舞人心的工作方式之一，而不仅仅是一个人坐在筒仓里。

And then, you take that and create kind of a, "Here's what the world could look like if we could make everything this feel this way, very democratic." And then there's this pitch that you eventually make of, "Here's the product." And you talked about how the way you pitch it is, "Here's a pain, here's a solution, and here's a proof point of that solution," could be a testimonial or some data, I imagine.

然后，你就以此为基础，创造出一种“如果我们能让一切都变得如此民主的话，世界将会是什么样子。”然后你最终会做出这样的宣传：“这就是产品。”你谈到了你的推销方式，“这是一个痛苦，这是一个解决方案，这是该解决方案的证明点”，我想可能是一份推荐或一些数据。

Mihika Kapoor: Definitely.

米希卡·卡普尔：当然。

I think that when you're actually presenting a vision, one of the most important things is that there is a single artifact that the team is creating together.

我认为，当你真正提出愿景时，最重要的事情之一是团队正在共同创建一个工件。

So, I think a common occurrence is to have the research readout, followed by the design crit, followed by the product review.

因此，我认为常见的情况是先进行研究读数，然后进行设计评判，然后进行产品审查。

And that's fine, that works in a lot of instances, but then you have every team member thinking that their own deliverable is what they need to pour all their energy into.

这很好，这在很多情况下都有效，但是每个团队成员都会认为他们自己的可交付成果就是他们需要投入所有精力的东西。

And what you actually want is for everyone to feel incredible ownership and incredible passion about this combined deliverable, so that it's a unified team who believes a singular set of insights.

你真正想要的是让每个人都对这个组合的交付成果感到难以置信的主人翁意识和难以置信的热情，这样它就成为一个统一的团队，相信一套独特的见解。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, what's an example of that?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，有什么例子吗？

Is it like a deck in Figma?

是不是有点像 Figma 里的套牌？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, exactly.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的，完全正确。

So, we often make our decks in Figma, and I think that we lean heavily into designing and prototyping even before a project gets a green light.

因此，我们经常在 Figma 中制作套牌，而且我认为，即使在项目获得批准之前，我们也会大力投入设计和原型制作。

So, I think that's something that's really unique about Figma is normally you will talk about the market space or the opportunity of the sizing, and then decide to invest.

所以，我认为 Figma 的真正独特之处在于，通常你会谈论市场空间或规模调整的机会，然后决定投资。

Versus Figma is very much a see to believe and see to feel that emotional pull towards this is something worth investing in.

与 Figma 相比，我们看到的东西让人相信，看到的感觉，情感上的吸引力是值得投资的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So, that's what I was trying to get to is how do you actually deliver a vision?

所以，这就是我想要解决的问题：如何真正实现愿景？

So, a lot of people, " Here, I need to create a vision.

所以，很多人，“在这里，我需要创造一个愿景。

I'm going to write out a paragraph or a memo describing it." You can create mock-ups.

我将写一段话或一份备忘录来描述它。”您可以创建模型。

The way you're describing it, essentially, is make it as real as possible, not just mocks, but actual prototypes potentially.

从本质上讲，您描述它的方式是使其尽可能真实，而不仅仅是模拟，而是潜在的实际原型。

Many people don't have design skills or designers on their team or engineering skills to build a prototype.

许多人没有设计技能或团队中的设计师，也没有构建原型的工程技能。

Is there anything you can share for how to do this where you don't have those skills?

如果您不具备这些技能，您是否可以分享如何做到这一点？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的。

Well, the good thing is that with AI, it's getting way easier.

好消息是，有了人工智能，事情变得更容易了。

So-

所以——

Mihika Kapoor: A couple of weeks ago, Cognition launched, which for those who don't know, is a startup that made this AI agent called Devin, which can code anything for you, supposedly.

Mihika Kapoor：几周前，Cognition 推出了，对于那些不知道的人来说，这是一家初创公司，制造了这个名为 Devin 的人工智能代理，据说它可以为你编码任何东西。

It definitely took Twitter by storm and got me super stoked.

这确实席卷了推特，让我兴奋不已。

And so, I think something that's interesting about the current AI revolution is that it's very much lowering the floor to starting out and to building something.

因此，我认为当前人工智能革命的有趣之处在于，它大大降低了开始和构建某些东西的门槛。

And so, recently, I was doing a chat with David Huang from Replit, and he's the head of marketing and design at Replit.

最近，我与 Replit 的 David Huang 进行了交谈，他是 Replit 的营销和设计主管。

And he was basically talking about how if Replit does their job right, you start seeing it as your technical co-founder.

他基本上是在谈论如果 Replit 正确完成他们的工作，你就会开始将其视为你的技术联合创始人。

And I think, conversely at Figma we kind of think about if we're doing our job, maybe in the future people will think about Figma as their designer co-founder, where you can go in and use it to start bringing things into existence.

我认为，相反，在 Figma，我们会思考如果我们在做好我们的工作，也许将来人们会认为 Figma 是他们的设计师联合创始人，在那里你可以进去并使用它来开始将事物变为现实。

Mihika Kapoor: So, I think one is, yeah, I do think that we're just trending in a direction, and this was not true a year ago, where the floor to building something is just so much lower.

米希卡·卡普尔：所以，我认为，是的，我确实认为我们只是朝着一个方向发展，而一年前情况并非如此，当时建造某些东西的门槛要低得多。

So, that's one piece.

所以，这是一件。

I think the second piece is just go around and ask people.

我认为第二部分就是四处走动并询问人们。

And so, for example, for the project that I'm currently working on, I used a hackathon to pitch it.

因此，例如，对于我目前正在进行的项目，我使用了黑客马拉松来推销它。

And basically, I built conviction in the idea many months before the hackathon, and I was verbally pitching it.

基本上，我在黑客马拉松前几个月就对这个想法产生了信心，并且我口头上推销了它。

And it was kind of like, "Oh yeah, maybe at some point in the future we would make an investment like this."

有点像，“哦，是的，也许在未来的某个时候我们会进行这样的投资。”

Mihika Kapoor: But what actually ended up happening was we have this concept called Maker Week, which is our internal hackathon, where the entire company goes on pause for a week.

Mihika Kapoor：但实际上最终发生的是我们有一个名为“创客周”的概念，这是我们的内部黑客马拉松，整个公司都会暂停一周。

And I think that most people think that, "Oh, hackathons are only a time for engineers to build." And I think that that's one of the biggest mistakes ever.

我认为大多数人都认为，“哦，黑客马拉松只是工程师进行构建的时间。”我认为这是有史以来最大的错误之一。

I think that anyone can have an idea and can...

我认为任何人都可以有想法并且可以...

Literally, what I did was walk around the New York office asking every single person, "Will you work on this thing with me?" And eventually, someone says yes, and then you can use that to build momentum, grow the team, and build something great.

从字面上看，我所做的就是在纽约办公室走来走去，询问每个人：“你愿意和我一起做这件事吗？”最终，有人答应了，然后你就可以利用它来建立动力、发展团队并打造一些伟大的东西。

But I think that never letting your own skills stop you from going out there making a pitch and then turning that into reality is really important.

但我认为，永远不要让自己的技能阻止你去进行宣传，然后将其变成现实，这一点非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love both of these points and pieces of advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这两点和建议。

I feel like I always say that if a PM has a designer partner that can just help them with a deck or help them with ideas, that you're such a superpower, everything just looks so much more interesting when you have a designer helping you craft your idea.

我觉得我总是说，如果产品经理有一个设计师合作伙伴，可以帮助他们设计套牌或帮助他们提出想法，那么你就是一个超级大国，当你有一个设计师帮助你构思你的想法时，一切看起来都会变得更加有趣。

And the way you describe it is pretty simple.

你描述它的方式非常简单。

Just go ask people for help because you're probably going to find someone that's going to help you out.

只要去向人们寻求帮助，因为您可能会找到可以帮助您的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned conviction, so that's a great segue to else where I wanted to go next.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了信念，所以这是我下一步想去的其他地方的一个很好的延续。

So, I asked Yuhki, chief product officer at Figma, about your strengths.

因此，我向 Figma 首席产品官 Yuhki 询问了你的优势。

And he told me that you get extremely strong conviction extremely quickly.

他告诉我，你很快就会得到非常强烈的信念。

He said that this strong conviction allows you to navigate the messy journey from zero to one and rally your team in a really powerful way.

他说，这种坚定的信念可以让你顺利度过从零到一的混乱旅程，并以真正强大的方式团结你的团队。

He actually wanted me to ask you this very question, how do you get to this strong conviction?

他实际上想让我问你这个问题，你是如何得到这个坚定的信念的？

And how much of it is to true deep conviction, versus there's an inkling of instinct that this is going to work and then you profit on the sense of conviction to get people rallying behind you and to kind of take this leap of faith?

其中有多少是真正的深刻信念，而不是有一种本能暗示这会起作用，然后你从信念感中获利，让人们团结在你身后，并采取这种信念的飞跃？

Mihika Kapoor: I think that one of the most important things for a PM to create for their team is momentum.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为产品经理为团队创造的最重要的事情之一就是动力。

You have to constantly be creating forward progress, probably towards that vision that we were just talking about.

你必须不断地取得进步，可能是为了实现我们刚才谈论的愿景。

But I'm a huge proponent of Jeff Bezos's one-way doors, two-way doors framework.

但我是杰夫·贝索斯的单向门、双向门框架的大力支持者。

And I think that especially in a software company, most things are two-way doors.

我认为，尤其是在软件公司，大多数事情都是双向的。

You can come back.

你可以回来了。

And so, it's so important to have an opinion and use that opinion to anchor people around and have people react to.

因此，发表意见并利用该意见来吸引周围的人并让人们做出反应非常重要。

So, I used to work at Meta before I worked at Figma, and Meta basically distilled the product role into two core capabilities.

所以，我在 Figma 之前曾在 Meta 工作，Meta 基本上将产品角色提炼为两个核心能力。

One was product sense and one was execution.

一是产品意识，一是执行力。

And when you think about product sense, it's like, okay, what is product sense?

当你想到产品感时，你会想，好吧，什么是产品感？

It's like a really abstract term.

这就像一个非常抽象的术语。

And at the end of the day, I think product sense is just having good intuition.

归根结底，我认为产品感就是拥有良好的直觉。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, there's this question about, okay, how do you build up intuition?

米希卡·卡普尔：所以，有一个问题是，好吧，你如何建立直觉？

And I think that it's just by having this insatiable curiosity and talking to users at every chance you get.

我认为这只是通过拥有永不满足的好奇心并抓住一切机会与用户交谈。

So, I would go to dinners and grill the people around me on how they use Figma and how they use FigJam.

所以，我会去吃晚饭，盘问我周围的人如何使用 Figma 以及如何使用 FigJam。

And I think when you have a conversation with someone, it's so much more powerful in terms of getting those anecdotes to stick in your head.

我认为，当你与某人交谈时，让这些轶事铭刻在你的脑海中会更有力。

And what actually happens is once you start having enough conversations, let's say you start with conversations ABC, then you progress to conversations DEF, over time you build this almost repository or library of conversations that you can draw from as you're making product decisions.

实际发生的情况是，一旦您开始进行足够多的对话，假设您从对话 ABC 开始，然后进行对话 DEF，随着时间的推移，您将构建这个几乎存储库或对话库，您可以在做出产品决策时从中借鉴。

And so, I think that that's a really powerful thing to lean into as you're thinking about, "Okay, which path do we go down?"

因此，我认为当你思考“好吧，我们该走哪条路？”时，这是一个非常强大的东西。

Mihika Kapoor: Now, there's the question of in the absence of any external signal, what can you do?

Mihika Kapoor：现在的问题是，在没有任何外部信号的情况下，你能做什么？

And I think that a very common thing, especially for PMs who are younger in their career, is to think that your opinion isn't right or might not be reflective of what the user thinks.

我认为，一个非常常见的事情，特别是对于职业生涯中年轻的产品经理来说，就是认为你的观点不正确或者可能无法反映用户的想法。

So, you think, "Okay, I believe this," and at the end of the day, everyone has an opinion, right?

所以，你想，“好吧，我相信这一点”，到最后，每个人都有自己的意见，对吗？

So, "I think this, but what do I know compared to these people who've been in my company for 10 years?" Or, "What do I know compared to my users who are using the product?" And so, then I think what might happen in those instances is you kind of start from nothing, you start from zero and you're like, "Okay, I'm going to build up from zero and gather all of these insights to get to a good place."

所以，“我是这么认为的，但是与这些在我公司工作了 10 年的人相比，我知道什么呢？”或者，“与使用该产品的用户相比，我知道什么？”因此，我认为在这些情况下可能会发生的情况是，您从零开始，从零开始，然后您会说，“好吧，我将从零开始，收集所有这些见解，以达到一个好的目标。”

Mihika Kapoor: And I think my take is that putting out an idea, even if it's totally wrong, is a much better catalyst for getting to a good solution because people are much more likely to react to an idea than to nothing.

米希卡·卡普尔：我认为，提出一个想法，即使它完全错误，也是找到良好解决方案的更好催化剂，因为人们更有可能对一个想法做出反应，而不是对任何想法都没有反应。

So, if it's the right idea, then they'll be like, "Oh my God, yes, let's totally do that." And if it's wrong, then it's like, okay, then they will take you in a different direction and you end up with something that's probably much more opinionated than if you hadn't put anything out there.

所以，如果这是正确的想法，那么他们会说，“天哪，是的，让我们完全这样做吧。”如果它是错误的，那么就像，好吧，然后他们会把你带向不同的方向，而你最终得到的东西可能比你没有放任何东西的时候更加固执己见。

And so, it was funny, one piece of advice that I got from Yuhki when I was working on my vision sprint was like, "Okay, when you go into research, you want to go in with something that's at least an A- idea, or you think is at least an A- idea.

所以，很有趣的是，当我进行愿景冲刺时，我从 Yuhki 那里得到的一条建议是，“好吧，当你进入研究时，你想要的东西至少是一个 A- 的想法，或者你认为至少是一个 A- 的想法。

Because if you talk to users and you learn something about it, that's awesome.

因为如果你与用户交谈并了解一些相关信息，那就太棒了。

Get to an A+.

获得 A+。

If not, at least you're not at a B." And so, I think that having-

如果没有，至少你还没有达到B。”所以，我认为有-

Mihika Kapoor: If not, at least you're not at a B.

米希卡·卡普尔：如果不是，至少你没有处于 B 级。

And so I think that having that early conviction, being willing to communicate it, being willing to get feedback from other folks in your team, have them react to it, then get users to react to it, is so important, but then also something that's equally important when you have "high conviction", quote, unquote, is to be willing to kill your darlings if you hear something that tells you otherwise.

因此，我认为，拥有这种早期的信念，愿意沟通它，愿意从团队中的其他人那里获得反馈，让他们对此做出反应，然后让用户对此做出反应，非常重要，但当你有“高度信念”时，同样重要的是，如果你听到了一些相反的信息，那么同样重要的是，愿意杀死你的宝贝。

You need to be so sort of strong opinions weekly held.

你需要每周举行一次强烈的意见。

And if you get external signal that's telling you something different, you should be ready to pivot and have that agility to do so.

如果你收到的外部信号告诉你一些不同的事情，你应该准备好转向并具备敏捷性。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of PMs that kind of worry about having too strong of an opinion and being like, "Here's what we're doing," because then there's this like, "Oh, okay, they just want us to do the thing they want us to do, and we don't have a voice.

Lenny Rachitsky：有很多产品经理担心自己的意见太强，并会说“这就是我们正在做的事情”，因为他们会说，“哦，好吧，他们只是希望我们做他们希望我们做的事情，而我们没有发言权。

We don't have a chance to influence." It seems like you find a really magical balance of strong opinion of like, "Here's what we should be doing," but people still love working with you and don't feel like...

我们没有机会施加影响。”似乎你在强烈的意见中找到了一种真正神奇的平衡，比如“这就是我们应该做的事情”，但人们仍然喜欢和你一起工作，并且不觉得……

I haven't heard like, "Oh, she just tells us what to bill." What advice do you have there of just finding that balance and making it clear?

我没有听说过，“哦，她只是告诉我们要开具什么账单。”对于找到这种平衡并使其清晰，您有什么建议？

It's just my idea.

这只是我的想法。

We can change it.

我们可以改变它。

Mihika Kapoor: I would say that speaking about weaknesses, having such strong conviction absolutely has downsides.

米希卡·卡普尔：我想说，谈论弱点，拥有如此强烈的信念绝对有缺点。

In particular, it's possible that it doesn't have the desired effect.

特别是，它可能没有达到预期的效果。

So for example, my designer who I work with, his name is Kean, he's so talented.

例如，与我一起工作的设计师，他的名字叫基恩，他非常有才华。

We work like this.

我们这样工作。

Literally for most of last year, we had an hour long one- on-one every single day and still that wasn't enough-

从字面上看，去年的大部分时间里，我们每天都有一个小时的一对一，但这还不够——

Mihika Kapoor: ...

米希卡·卡普尔：……

meeting time.

会议时间。

Yes.

是的。

We basically work together like this, but he also told me that when I joined the company, he was like, "Who is this girl and why does she have so many opinions?" And so I think that something that I have learned to do over time, and I think that's something that's a good sort of thing to lean into if you are a PM who has strong opinions, is to be very direct about how much you care about your opinions.

我们基本上是这样一起工作的，但他还告诉我，当我加入公司时，他就像，“这个女孩是谁，为什么她有这么多意见？”因此，我认为，随着时间的推移，我学会了做一件事，并且我认为，如果你是一位有强烈意见的产品经理，这是一件值得学习的好事情，那就是非常直接地表达你对自己意见的关心程度。

So now, I'll do this thing where I'll be like, "Oh, I think we should do this, but I feel like medium confidence on it." So if you feel stronger like, "I defer to you," and always being very, very, very explicit about like, "I feel really strongly about this," or, "This is my hypothesis," or, "I do not have an opinion here.

所以现在，我会做这件事，我会说，“哦，我认为我们应该这样做，但我对此有中等信心。”因此，如果你感觉更强烈，比如“我听从你的意见”，并且总是非常非常非常明确地表达“我对此感觉非常强烈”，或者“这是我的假设”，或者“我在这里没有意见。

I defer to you."

我听从你的安排。”

Mihika Kapoor: I think the second thing that I would mention that is really important in order to do this correctly is...

Mihika Kapoor：我认为我要提到的第二件事对于正确地做到这一点非常重要的是......

So I have a very direct communication style.

所以我有一种非常直接的沟通方式。

I will never sugarcoat anything.

我永远不会粉饰任何事情。

I'll never say I like something if I don't like something.

如果我不喜欢某件事，我永远不会说我喜欢某件事。

If I'm in a meeting and someone tells me they don't agree with me, I will tell them I don't agree with them back.

如果我在开会时有人告诉我他们不同意我的观点，我会告诉他们我不同意他们的观点。

In return, I really like it when people are very direct with me.

作为回报，我真的很喜欢人们对我非常直接。

And so I think that whenever I join a team or whenever I start working with a new person, I always let them know.

因此，我认为每当我加入一个团队或每当我开始与新人一起工作时，我总是让他们知道。

I'm always like, :I am very direct and if you disagree with me, I want to know that."

我总是这样说：我很直接，如果你不同意我的观点，我想知道。”

Mihika Kapoor: Because I think sometimes what can happen is really strongly minded PMs can go into a conversation and can be like, "Oh, I think we should do X," even though they actually feel medium confidence about X.

Mihika Kapoor：因为我认为有时可能发生的情况是，意志坚定的 PM 可以在谈话中说，“哦，我认为我们应该做 X”，尽管他们实际上对 X 有中等信心。

And then the rest of the room is like, "Oh, my God.

然后房间里的其他人就像是，“哦，天哪。

That PM feels so strongly about doing X that I'm not going to say anything because they clearly have so much conviction in X." And what you actually want is for everyone to feel comfortable speaking up.

这位 PM 对做 X 的感觉如此强烈，以至于我不会说什么，因为他们显然对 X 抱有如此多的信念。”而你真正想要的是让每个人都能够轻松地畅所欲言。

And so creating that culture where everyone feels comfortable giving their opinion and communicating their level of confidence is really important.

因此，创造一种让每个人都能轻松发表意见并表达自己的信心的文化非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: So this direct communication point you made, somebody shared this quote, Alice Ching, who I think your EM said this about you that she's in awe of how direct you are, especially how you can make it not personal and help people focus on the matter at hand.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你提出的这个直接沟通点，有人分享了这句话，Alice Ching，我认为你的 EM 是这样评价你的，她对你的直接感到敬畏，尤其是你如何能够让它不那么个人化，并帮助人们专注于手头的事情。

Any other advice you have there for people to, one, either be more direct and successful in that being directness?

您对人们还有什么其他建议，第一，要么更加直接并在直接性方面取得成功？

Or is there an example you can share where, because I think people hear this, they're like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to be direct.

或者你可以分享一个例子，因为我认为人们听到这个，他们会说，“哦，是的，我会直接说。

I'm going to be so direct, it's going to be great," and then it's so hard to actually do, so is there maybe an example that comes to mind of here's something you did recently of like, "Oh, wow.

我会很直接，这会很棒，”然后实际上很难做到，所以你可能会想到一个例子，比如你最近做过的事情，“哦，哇。

Okay, I see what she's talking about"?

好吧，我明白她在说什么”？

Mihika Kapoor: So I think that directness only works if it's two-way.

米希卡·卡普尔：所以我认为直接只有在双向的情况下才有效。

If it is one person being really direct with another person and then the other person being afraid to talk, you will end up in probably a not great relationship where communication is only going one way and both people will be in their own head.

如果一个人对另一个人非常直接，而另一个人却害怕说话，那么你们最终可能会建立一种不太好的关系，沟通只能以单向进行，而且两个人都会沉浸在自己的想法中。

The person being direct will be like, "Why is the other person not responding to my feedback?" And then the other person will be like, "Why am I the only one getting so much feedback?" Meta, where I used to work, had this phrase, "Feedback as a gift," and I so deeply believe in this.

直接的人会说：“为什么对方不回应我的反馈？”然后另一个人会说，“为什么我是唯一一个得到这么多反馈的人？”我以前工作的 Meta 有这样一句话：“反馈是一份礼物”，我对此深信不疑。

And in order to really lean into that phrase and really embody it, I think it's really important that feedback is this constantly flowing thing, not something that happens once or twice a year when you have an official feedback cycle.

为了真正理解这句话并真正体现它，我认为反馈是一种不断流动的东西，而不是当你有官方反馈周期时每年发生一两次的事情，这一点非常重要。

Mihika Kapoor: And the way that I try and create this culture of constant direct communication, constant feedback is if you have feedback to give someone else, I think you can start by asking, "Hey, do you have feedback from me?" And kind of taking the feedback first so then that person feels like, "Okay, maybe I have my way of seeing this situation.

米希卡·卡普尔：我尝试创造这种持续直接沟通、持续反馈的文化的方式是，如果你有反馈要给别人，我想你可以先问：“嘿，你有我的反馈吗？”首先接受反馈，然后那个人就会感觉，“好吧，也许我有自己的方式来看待这种情况。

Let me communicate that and get off my chest." And then when you give your feedback, it's sort of even.

让我把这个想法表达出来，然后畅所欲言。”然后当你给出反馈时，它会变得相当均匀。

And then feedback in my opinion is something that you should always act on.

在我看来，反馈是你应该始终采取行动的事情。

So then to the extent that you can as soon as possible put that into effect and be like, "Okay, I'm hearing this.

因此，你可以尽快将其付诸实施，然后说：“好吧，我听到了。

I'm going to do XYZ in order to combat that." I think then that incentivizes the other person to do the same.

我要做 XYZ 来对抗这种情况。”我认为这会激励其他人也这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let me quickly summarize what we've gone through so far in our archaeological study, and then I'm going to drill into a specific trait.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我快速总结一下迄今为止我们在考古研究中所经历的事情，然后我将深入探讨一个特定的特征。

So one is just having a really powerful vision that people get really excited about.

所以一个人只是拥有一个真正强大的愿景，让人们感到非常兴奋。

And the way you described it is kind of find an insight about how you think people could be, in this example, how people could be working maybe through this brainstorm approach and then kind of expanding that into something where this is what would happen if we achieve this in the future, and this is what the world could look like, and that's something people get really excited about.

你所描述的方式是，在这个例子中，人们可以通过这种头脑风暴的方法来工作，然后将其扩展到如果我们将来实现这一目标将会发生的事情，这就是世界可能的样子，这是人们真正兴奋的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: So kind of creating compelling vision, being able to communicate it with, and in your experience, communicating with prototypes and mocks is the way that you find it to be most effective.

Lenny Rachitsky：创造令人信服的愿景，能够与之沟通，根据您的经验，与原型和模拟进行沟通是您发现最有效的方式。

Also, just getting to strong conviction, whether it's real or not, but it sounds like it's actually very genuine about an idea and making it clear.

另外，只要有强烈的信念，不管它是真是假，但听起来它实际上是一个非常真诚的想法，并且很清楚。

You're very excited about this and here's how it's going to be amazing for the business and the company, and here's why you should be excited about it.

你对此感到非常兴奋，这将为业务和公司带来惊人的效果，这就是为什么你应该对此感到兴奋。

Also, you talked about being very direct and being very honest and basically radical candor as some people describe it.

另外，你谈到了非常直接、非常诚实，基本上是激进的坦诚，正如一些人所描述的那样。

First of all, is there anything else I missed specifically before I drill into one of these?

首先，在深入研究其中一个之前，我还特别错过了什么吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

So kind of along these lines, something else that came up a bunch of in my emails with folks that you work with is how you build hype really effectively, and you talked about this a bit of just creating momentum about an idea.

沿着这些思路，我在与你一起工作的人的电子邮件中提到了一些其他内容，那就是如何真正有效地进行炒作，你谈到了这一点，只是为一个想法创造动力。

So you got this idea, get everyone pitch it, get everyone excited, and then it just continues to build hype and momentum.

所以你有了这个想法，让每个人都推销它，让每个人都兴奋起来，然后它就会继续形成炒作和势头。

So a quote from Karl Jiang, who is on your team maybe, he said, "I feel no PM has ever got me so hyped about a feature." And Yuhki said that you overcome people's doubts by building hype and hacking hype is the way described it.

因此，他可能引用了你们团队中的 Karl Jiang 的话，“我觉得没有哪个 PM 曾让我对某个功能如此大肆宣传。” Yuhki 说，你可以通过炒作和黑客炒作来克服人们的疑虑，这就是描述的方式。

Talk about this and why do you think it's important and how you actually go about doing this.

谈谈这个问题，为什么你认为它很重要，以及你实际上是如何做到这一点的。

Mihika Kapoor: When you are spearheading an idea or a product, it's really on you to have a pulse on how everyone else is feeling about that product.

Mihika Kapoor：当你带头提出一个想法或产品时，你真的有责任了解其他人对该产品的感受。

And different products need different levels of excitement to make it out the door.

不同的产品需要不同程度的兴奋才能上市。

If there is something that leadership has really strong conviction in, it's important for leadership to amp the whole company up behind that vision.

如果领导层对某件事有真正坚定的信念，那么领导层必须让整个公司支持这一愿景，这一点很重要。

On the flip side, if you yourself are pushing a zero to one idea from the bottoms up, the onus is even more on you to make sure that that project and that product is constantly propped up and that people are excited about it to make it out the door.

另一方面，如果你自己自下而上地推动一个从零到一的想法，那么你就有更大的责任来确保该项目和该产品不断得到支持，并且人们对此感到兴奋并最终推出。

And so one example is we've been talking about this product that I'm working on.

一个例子是我们一直在谈论我正在开发的这款产品。

And coming out of winter break this year, there's this sense, or at least I always suspect, that there's this sense of over winter break, everyone forgets what happened last year.

今年寒假结束后，有一种感觉，或者至少我一直怀疑，有一种寒假结束后，每个人都忘记了去年发生的事情。

It goes at the door because you were hopefully doing something that took your mind off work.

它之所以出现在门口，是因为你希望做一些事情来分散你的注意力。

Mihika Kapoor: And so at the same time, there's this sense of how do you create forward momentum inside of a company in January when people are slowly coming back into office, everyone's trickling back in at different dates because everyone to click slightly different PTO, how do you rally people in a certain direction?

Mihika Kapoor：所以与此同时，有一种感觉是，在一月份，当人们慢慢回到办公室时，你如何在公司内部创造前进的动力，每个人在不同的日期陆续回来，因为每个人点击的 PTO 略有不同，你如何将人们聚集到某个方向？

And so we have this thing at Figma called SKO or Sales Kickoff, which is every year the sales team comes together, and we have a keynote and a set of fireside chats and stuff like that, and we talk about what's coming for the year.

所以我们在Figma有一个叫做SKO或销售启动的活动，每年销售团队都会聚在一起，我们有一个主题演讲和一系列炉边谈话之类的东西，我们讨论今年的发展。

And at this point, our product, it existed, but it was absolutely barely built.

此时，我们的产品已经存在，但它绝对是刚刚建成的。

It was rough around the edges.

它的边缘很粗糙。

It had bugs every day.

它每天都有错误。

Maybe 10 people in the company were using it and something like that outside of the team.

公司里可能有 10 个人在使用它，而团队之外也有类似的东西。

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, it was so important to me that this product got visibility in this forum because this was the first company-wide forum of the year where we were declaring priorities for the year.

Mihika Kapoor：是的，这个产品在这个论坛上得到关注对我来说非常重要，因为这是今年第一个全公司范围的论坛，我们在其中宣布了今年的优先事项。

And so it was so important to me that this product had some sort of a moment, or speaking of show, don't tell, a demo in the context of this keynote.

所以对我来说非常重要的是，这个产品有某种时刻，或者说是展示，而不是讲述，在这个主题演讲的背景下进行演示。

And so Kris, our CTO and Yuhki, our CPO, were giving this keynote on what does our year look like?

因此，我们的首席技术官克里斯 (Kris) 和首席产品官 Yuhki 就我们这一年的情况发表了主题演讲？

And I really, really deeply insisted that we should include a demo.

我真的非常强烈地坚持我们应该包含一个演示。

And I think what ended up happening is something like that, a demo that wasn't meant to be a demo or that people weren't expecting does so much in terms of driving that sense of hype and helping people see what you yourself see in the future.

我认为最终发生的事情是这样的，一个本来不应该是演示的演示，或者人们没有想到的演示，在推动炒作感和帮助人们看到你自己所看到的未来方面做了很多事情。

And what's really interesting is I think that hype is something that...

真正有趣的是我认为炒作是......

You can't really create hype for something you don't believe in my opinion.

你不能真正为你不相信我的观点的事情制造炒作。

The only way to create hype is to get people to see what you see.

制造炒作的唯一方法是让人们看到你所看到的。

Mihika Kapoor: And so I think that it's incredibly important to leverage very large forums like that Maker Week, like Sales Kickoff.

Mihika Kapoor：所以我认为利用像创客周、销售启动这样的大型论坛非常重要。

We have CONFIG, which is our annual showcase to the world of what we're working on in order to get everyone to see what you're seeing and to be really scrappy about it and to really be the person who's pushing your product to its limits in the right moments.

我们举办了 CONFIG，这是我们向世界展示我们正在努力的年度成果，以便让每个人都能看到您所看到的内容，并真正斗志昂扬，真正成为在正确的时刻将您的产品推向极限的人。

And I think what you find is that if you push your product to get visibility, maybe even beyond what the current stage of product development merits is that you have really incredible learnings because the more that you can put your product in front of people and get them to use it, the more signal you get on how it's trending.

我认为你会发现，如果你推动你的产品获得知名度，甚至可能超出产品开发当前阶段的价值，你就会学到令人难以置信的知识，因为你越能将你的产品展示在人们面前并让他们使用它，你就越能获得关于它的趋势的信号。

And so what ended up happening was something that could have originally been perceived as a distraction to the team actually ended up being something that added so much fuel to the fire in terms of, one, giving us product insights to inform our next steps.

因此，最终发生的事情原本可能被认为是对团队的干扰，但实际上最终却成为了火上浇油的事情，一方面，为我们提供了产品见解，为我们的下一步行动提供了信息。

And two, getting the entire company to feel truly, deeply feel excited about getting this thing out the door.

第二，让整个公司对推出这个产品感到真正的、深深的兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this pitch and product you're describing is the one that's going to be launching this mysterious new product, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：您所描述的这个推介和产品就是将要推出这款神秘新产品的产品，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like we're going to build so much hype for this thing when it ever comes out.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得当这件事问世时，我们将会对其进行如此多的炒作。

I'm so excited to learn what it is.

我很高兴知道它是什么。

Coming back to the point, so what I'm hearing essentially is you find it's important to take responsibility for this thing to become a thing at a company.

回到正题，我听到的本质是你发现为这件事承担责任对于成为公司的一件事很重要。

A lot of people have an idea, they build a prototype, they build a hackathon project, and then they're like, "God, no one's ever doing anything with it.

很多人有一个想法，他们构建了一个原型，他们构建了一个黑客马拉松项目，然后他们就像，“天哪，没有人用它做任何事情。

It's not going anywhere.

它不会去任何地方。

Nothing ever happens." What I'm hearing is it's on you to get people excited about it and find these opportunities to get people excited about it.

什么都没有发生。”我听到的是，你有责任让人们对此感到兴奋，并找到这些机会让人们对此感到兴奋。

And there's also this, what I'm feeling is the feels is really important.

还有一点，我觉得感觉真的很重要。

It's like you have all the data probably.

就像您可能拥有所有数据一样。

There's probably a logical case for this that you've made across the company, but what you're describing here is you need to get people hyped about it in a emotional, visceral way and basically find opportunities to do that is kind of a lesson here.

你可能已经在整个公司提出了一个合乎逻辑的案例，但你在这里所描述的是，你需要让人们以一种情感上、发自内心的方式对此进行宣传，并且基本上找到机会做到这一点，这就是这里的一个教训。

Mihika Kapoor: In my mind, there is internal hype, which is how do you get buy-in and everyone inside of the company to be fanging their fist on the table for a product to get built, but there's also external hype, which is like how do you get your users hyped about your product?

Mihika Kapoor：在我看来，有内部炒作，就是如何获得认可，让公司内部的每个人都在桌面上挥舞拳头以打造产品，但也有外部炒作，就像如何让用户对你的产品进行炒作？

How do you get them to really be so stoked when there are milestone occasions for your product or milestone launches and for them to be celebrating with you?

当您的产品或里程碑发布的里程碑时刻以及他们与您一起庆祝时，您如何让他们真正如此兴奋？

And one of the things that I loved the most when I joined the company was Figma and design Twitter have had this very symbiotic relationship where each has grown with the other over time.

当我加入公司时，我最喜欢的事情之一是 Figma 和设计 Twitter 建立了这种非常共生的关系，随着时间的推移，彼此都在成长。

And what really happens is anytime we launch something, you have all of design Twitter celebrating with us.

真正发生的是，每当我们推出某样东西时，Twitter 的所有设计人员都会与我们一起庆祝。

Mihika Kapoor: And one other moment when I thought it was very fun to drive hype was when I worked on FigJam in 2022.

Mihika Kapoor：2022 年我在 FigJam 工作时，我觉得炒作非常有趣。

It was the one year FigJam anniversary in April, and project anniversaries or product anniversaries are quite an exciting milestone within the company.

四月份是 FigJam 一周年纪念日，项目周年纪念日或产品周年纪念日是公司内部令人兴奋的里程碑。

You bring everyone together, maybe you pop a bottle of champagne, you kind of celebrate how far you've come and what all you've learned since the launch.

你把每个人聚集在一起，也许你打开一瓶香槟，你庆祝一下你已经走了多远，以及自发布以来你所学到的一切。

But we were really thinking like, "Okay, FigJam is awesome, but FigJam isn't just any product.

但我们确实在想，“好吧，FigJam 很棒，但 FigJam 不仅仅是任何产品。

Figjam has a personality.

Figjam 有个性。

FigJam is cheeky.

FigJam 很厚脸皮。

FigJam is fun.

无花果果酱很有趣。

FigJam has this cute skeuomorphism going on where you feel like it's your friend.

FigJam 有一种可爱的拟物化效果，让你感觉它是你的朋友。

And so okay, how would you celebrate that moment for a friend?" You wouldn't really have an anniversary party.

那么好吧，你会如何为朋友庆祝那一刻呢？”你不会真的举办周年纪念聚会。

You would throw it a full on birthday party.

你会举办一场完整的生日派对。

Mihika Kapoor: And so what we basically did was at the one year anniversary of FigJam, I worked with the marketing team and our engineering team in order to basically kick off a mini launch inside of the product of a bunch of new features.

Mihika Kapoor：所以我们基本上做的是在FigJam一周年之际，我与营销团队和我们的工程团队合作，以便基本上在产品内部启动一系列新功能的小型发布。

And what we did was we Easter egged them through the product and each sort of product that we were releasing inside of FigJam was hidden under this little birthday present.

我们所做的就是通过产品给他们复活节彩蛋，我们在 FigJam 中发布的每种产品都隐藏在这个小生日礼物下。

And throughout the day, we sent all of our users on an Easter egg hunt of presents inside of FigJam.

一整天，我们都让所有用户在 FigJam 中寻找复活节彩蛋礼物。

And so not only was a FigJam getting the presents, but it was our users getting the presents.

因此，不仅 FigJam 收到了礼物，我们的用户也收到了礼物。

I think that hype as well is really tied to emotion.

我认为炒作也确实与情感相关。

So to the extent that a person using a product can feel like, "Oh, this thing that is built in the product was built for me not to advance the company's goals or anything like that, but to make me feel special, to make me feel happy."

因此，使用产品的人可能会感觉，“哦，产品中内置的这个东西是为我构建的，不是为了推进公司的目标或类似的东西，而是为了让我感到特别，让我感到快乐。”

Mihika Kapoor: I think that's a really key instrument in driving hype as well.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为这也是推动炒作的一个非常关键的工具。

And I think that something that's quite interesting about hype and getting your users to feel strongly about your product is that every product has their own brand of delight or excitement or energy.

我认为，炒作和让用户对你的产品产生强烈感觉的一件非常有趣的事情是，每个产品都有自己的品牌的快乐、兴奋或能量。

So hype for FigJam is incredibly different than hype from Figma, where hype for Figma might be this really, really niche design capability that unlocks this pain point that designers have been having for years and years.

因此，对 FigJam 的炒作与 Figma 的炒作截然不同，对 Figma 的炒作可能是这种真正非常利基的设计功能，它解决了设计师多年来一直面临的痛点。

And then hype for Apple might be like the world's best unboxing experience or something like that.

然后，对苹果的炒作可能会是世界上最好的开箱体验或类似的东西。

And so leaning into a product's brand in order to figure out what is the optimal way to generate hype with your audience and form that connection is something that's really important.

因此，深入研究产品的品牌，找出与受众进行炒作并形成联系的最佳方式，这一点非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that example.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个例子。

Something else I'm finding as a thread throughout all of the lessons and stories he shares is just an immersion in your user base and truly knowing what they're excited about, what problems they have, and you talk about having strong conviction and painting a grand vision.

我在他分享的所有课程和故事中发现的另一件事是，沉浸在你的用户群中，真正了解他们对什么感到兴奋，他们有什么问题，以及你谈论的坚定信念和描绘宏伟愿景。

It's one thing if someone that doesn't do that does that, it's just like, why would I believe them?

如果一个不这样做的人这样做是一回事，就像，我为什么要相信他们？

Versus someone that like you, where you're just constantly talking to users and actually understand what they need.

与喜欢你的人相比，你只是不断地与用户交谈并真正了解他们的需求。

So I guess the question here is just what advice would you share with folks to build that, to be immersed with users?

所以我想这里的问题是你会与人们分享什么建议来构建它，让用户沉浸其中？

What do you actually do?

你实际上是做什么的？

How do you actually do that?

你实际上是如何做到的？

Are you just organizing meetings, events?

您只是组织会议、活动吗？

Are you scheduling chats?

您正在安排聊天吗？

How do you do this?

你如何做到这一点？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, so I think it honestly depends on the product.

Mihika Kapoor：是的，所以我认为这确实取决于产品。

So when I worked at Meta, it was so easy.

所以当我在 Meta 工作时，一切都是那么简单。

Everyone and their mom had opinion about the product, which was really great because it meant that anyone you met, you could kind of ask them what they liked, what they didn't like.

每个人和他们的妈妈都对这个产品有意见，这真的很棒，因为这意味着你遇到的任何人，你都可以问他们喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。

You can relay that through the company, et cetera.

您可以通过公司等传达该信息。

Now at Figma, we have a slightly more niche audience.

现在 Figma 的受众群体稍微小一些。

I think that hopefully, ultimately we get to everyone.

我认为希望最终我们能够惠及所有人。

We started with design teams, now we're thinking about the entire product development cycle and how we can build for that, and then who knows, beyond that could be anything.

我们从设计团队开始，现在我们正在考虑整个产品开发周期以及我们如何为此构建，然后谁知道，除此之外可能是什么。

But I think that constantly immersing yourself in those circles where your users are is really important.

但我认为不断地让自己沉浸在用户所在的圈子中非常重要。

So for me, it's like anytime that I'm catching up with a friend, who mildly works in tech or a tech adjacent field, I will generally be asking them about Figma.

所以对我来说，就像每当我和一位在科技或科技相关领域工作的朋友见面时，我通常都会向他们询问 Figma 的情况。

And I think what's really great is that as a company scales over time, their user base gets broader and broader.

我认为真正伟大的是，随着公司规模的不断扩大，他们的用户群会变得越来越广泛。

And so when we grew from a single product company with Figma into now a multi product company with FigJam, dev mode, etc, our audience exploded.

因此，当我们从 Figma 的单一产品公司发展成为现在拥有 FigJam、开发模式等的多产品公司时，我们的受众激增。

And we already saw latent behavior inside of Figma, but now it's even more clear how wide reaching the product is.

我们已经看到 Figma 内部的潜在行为，但现在更清楚该产品的影响范围有多大。

And so something that I find incredibly useful is to not just ask users of your product what they think about your product, but to ask non-users about your product, why they're not using your product.

因此，我发现非常有用的一点是，不仅要询问产品的用户对你的产品的看法，还要询问非用户对你的产品的看法，以及他们为什么不使用你的产品。

And actually I think that those are the most insightful conversations because I think that having a product shine and having a product do well and have great adoption isn't just about the product being great.

事实上，我认为这些是最有洞察力的对话，因为我认为让产品发光、让产品表现良好并得到广泛采用并不仅仅意味着产品很棒。

It's also about the marketing and the perceptions that surround the product and potentially the hype that surrounds that, right?

它还与围绕产品的营销和看法以及围绕产品的潜在炒作有关，对吧？

Mihika Kapoor: And so having those conversations about...

米希卡·卡普尔：所以这些对话是关于……

I remember having an early conversation with folks from my previous team about, "Hey, are you guys using FigJam?" And they would be like, "Maybe sometimes." And I'd be like, "Well, why aren't you using FigJam?

我记得与我之前团队的成员进行了一次早期对话，内容是“嘿，你们在使用 FigJam 吗？”他们会说，“也许有时。”我会说，“那么，你为什么不使用 FigJam 呢？

It's literally built for you." And then that led to a series of product insights that led us to invest in a set of features that would make it much easier for a non-designer to get started out on the canvas.

它确实是为你打造的。”然后，这导致了一系列产品见解，促使我们投资于一组功能，这些功能将使非设计师更容易在画布上开始工作。

So we launched this kind of placeholder experience that rather than traditional templates, really let people see the various use cases and preview the various use cases on the canvas.

因此我们推出了这种占位符体验，而不是传统的模板，真正让人们看到各种用例并在画布上预览各种用例。

And so that was incredibly important.

所以这非常重要。

And then Figma, of course, is kind of like it's in this pro-sumer space where it's like you talk to anyone in tech and maybe they're your top total addressable market.

当然，Figma 有点像在这个专业消费者领域，就像你与科技领域的任何人交谈，也许他们是你最大的潜在市场。

Mihika Kapoor: But then there are some products I know that people work on which are very removed from the average person, you have infra products, security products and things like that, where you can't just walk up to someone and have a conversation with them about why aren't they using your product because that conversation might not make any sense.

Mihika Kapoor：但是我知道人们开发的一些产品与普通人非常不同，你有基础产品、安全产品和类似的东西，你不能走到某人面前并与他们对话，询问他们为什么不使用你的产品，因为这种对话可能没有任何意义。

And so in those instances, I think that what's really important is it depends on the stage of company that you're at.

因此，在这些情况下，我认为真正重要的是取决于您所处的公司阶段。

If you're at an early stage company, you need to be the one going out there and having conversations with your users and just literally looking up your users through whatever channels necessary and figuring out how you can connect with them.

如果你在一家处于早期阶段的公司，你需要走出去，与你的用户进行对话，通过任何必要的渠道查找你的用户，并弄清楚如何与他们建立联系。

I think this is also why founder market fit at startups is so important is because to the extent that you can use yourself as a limits test for what user needs there are, that helps you move really fast in the product development cycle.

我认为这也是为什么创始人市场适合初创公司如此重要的原因，因为你可以将自己用作用户需求的极限测试，这可以帮助你在产品开发周期中快速前进。

Mihika Kapoor: And then if you're on the larger side, I think that having a really tight relationship with your sales team is really important.

米希卡·卡普尔：如果您的规模更大，我认为与销售团队保持紧密的关系非常重要。

And basically, just being on sales calls because you want to be in a situation where the customer pain points on sales calls are cross pollinating into the product roadmap, and you also want to ensure that your sales team has visibility into what might be coming and are constantly informing that.

基本上，只是进行销售拜访，因为您希望销售拜访中的客户痛点能够交叉传播到产品路线图中，并且您还希望确保您的销售团队能够了解可能发生的情况并不断告知这一情况。

And so I think really leaning into that, building that relationship between these traditionally more siloed orgs and hopping on those calls is something that I'd really recommend.

因此，我认为真正倾向于这一点，在这些传统上更加孤立的组织之间建立关系并积极参与这些电话是我真正推荐的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Let's go actually one layer deeper here.

让我们实际上更深入一层。

So you're talking to people all the time about FigJam, "Aren't you using FigJam?

所以你一直在和人们谈论 FigJam，“你不是在使用 FigJam 吗？

What do you think of Figma?

你觉得 Figma 怎么样？

What do think of this?" You're hopping on sales calls.

对此你有何看法？”你正忙着打销售电话。

What do you do with what you hear?

你用你所听到的做什么？

Is there kind of an operational approach where you...

有没有一种操作方法可以让您...

Do you just put in your head and sticks in your head and rolls around and comes up, things emerge?

你是否只是把它放进你的脑袋里，粘在你的脑袋里，然后滚来滚去，事情就浮现出来了？

Do you have a place you put these insights, you're learning?

您是否有一个地方可以放置您正在学习的这些见解？

Are you putting post-its in FigJam, for example.

例如，您是否将便利贴放入 FigJam 中？

And then on the sales side, do you have a cadence where I'm going to join a sales call once a week, here's a person I love in sales, I'm going to try to join all the calls.

然后在销售方面，你是否有节奏让我每周参加一次销售电话会议，这是我在销售中喜欢的人，我将尝试参加所有电话会议。

How do you actually operationalize these things?

您如何实际操作这些东西？

Mihika Kapoor: The insights get operationalized in a number of ways.

Mihika Kapoor：这些见解可以通过多种方式付诸实践。

So first is...

所以首先是...

So yeah, let's continue using FigJam as an example.

所以，是的，让我们继续使用 FigJam 作为示例。

I think, like I mentioned, Figma as a company uses FigJam for everything.

我认为，就像我提到的，Figma 作为一家公司，一切都使用 FigJam。

Multiple FigJam files are made per day, per meeting, et cetera.

每天、每次会议等都会生成多个 FigJam 文件。

We had this initial situation where people outside of the company were mostly using FigJam for brainstorms.

我们最初遇到的情况是，公司外部的人大多使用 FigJam 进行头脑风暴。

And so as we were scaling our FigJam sales team, I sort of set up a recurring cadence with the folks in our sales team in order to understand like, "Okay, what are you guys hearing?" And then I would share what was coming, and then I would use their input as signal as to what should be prioritized or deprioritized on the roadmap.

因此，当我们扩大 FigJam 销售团队规模时，我与销售团队中的人员建立了一种重复的节奏，以便理解“好吧，你们听到了什么？”然后我会分享即将发生的事情，然后我会使用他们的意见作为信号，确定路线图上应该优先考虑或取消优先考虑的内容。

And they would use my signal to understand what were the various use cases that they could be pushing with the customers.

他们会使用我的信号来了解他们可以向客户推送的各种用例。

Mihika Kapoor: And one thing that happened during one of the meetings was I literally walked them through, this meeting, this is how I use FigJam.

Mihika Kapoor：在一次会议期间发生的一件事是，我真的向他们介绍了这次会议，这就是我使用 FigJam 的方式。

In this meeting, this is how I use FigJam.

在这次会议中，我就是这样使用 FigJam 的。

In this meeting, this is how I use FigJam, blah, blah, blah.

在这次会议中，我就是这样使用 FigJam 的，等等，等等。

And what that resulted in was I actually made a Loom video walking through my weekend FigJam, that our sales team later distributed to a bunch of companies to inspire them as to like, "Hey, not only can you use FigJam for this, you can use Fig Jam for X, Y, Z.

结果是，我实际上制作了一个 Loom 视频，展示周末 FigJam，我们的销售团队后来将其分发给许多公司，以激励他们喜欢，“嘿，你不仅可以使用 FigJam 来实现此目的，还可以使用 Fig Jam 来实现 X、Y、Z。

You can use it for your team pickups.

您可以将其用于您的团队拾取。

You can use it for your retros.

您可以将它用于复古。

You can use it for planning your mom's birthday party.

您可以用它来规划您妈妈的生日聚会。

You can use it for planning your all hands.

您可以用它来规划您的所有双手。

You can use it for sketching out the contents of what's going to go into your next deck," so on and so forth.

你可以用它来勾勒出你的下一副牌的内容，”等等。

And so it basically manifests in two way, the first is having it inform the prioritization of your product roadmap.

因此它基本上表现为两种方式，第一种是让它告知产品路线图的优先级。

Mihika Kapoor: And then the second is what ideally creating artifacts that the sales team can use to evangelize the things that you are seeing and the stepping stones to that vision that you creating.

Mihika Kapoor：第二个是理想情况下创建的工件，销售团队可以使用这些工件来宣传您所看到的事物以及您所创建的愿景的垫脚石。

And then the last thing is that sometimes the conversations aren't immediately actionable, right?

最后一件事是，有时对话并不能立即付诸行动，对吧？

Sometimes the sales team has an insight or has a request that is just objectively not feasible because the team has too much on its plate.

有时，销售团队有一个洞察力或有一个客观上不可行的请求，因为团队有太多的事情要做。

Conversely, sometimes the team might have a suggestion for something that might be pitched to sales folks that's too early given the stage of the conversation.

相反，有时团队可能会向销售人员提出一些建议，但考虑到对话的阶段，这些建议还为时过早。

And for that, we basically have...

为此，我们基本上有...

We store it in Asana basically.

我们基本上将其存储在 Asana 中。

We have this integration, which many companies might have, which is like Slack integration, where you can react with an Asana emoji, and then any piece of feedback that comes in from sales or from the rest of the company gets turned into a task in your backlog, and then you do a weekly grooming of that.

我们有这种集成，许多公司可能都有，就像 Slack 集成一样，你可以用 Asana 表情符号做出反应，然后来自销售或公司其他部门的任何反馈都会变成你待办事项中的一项任务，然后你每周进行一次整理。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Very tactical and useful.

非常具有战术性和实用性。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

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那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another thread that I've noticed, and I wasn't planning to go in this direction, but you just care so deeply about the things you work on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我注意到的另一个线索，我本来不打算朝这个方向发展，但你非常关心你所做的事情。

You actually really, really love it and want it to be incredibly successful and feels like you're just always thinking about it.

你实际上真的非常非常喜欢它，并希望它取得令人难以置信的成功，并且感觉你只是一直在思考它。

Reminding me of this quote from your colleague Karl, they shared that, "It feels like you care deeply, which makes me care deeply.

他们让我想起你的同事卡尔的这句话，他们分享道：“感觉你很关心，这让我也很关心。

Who wants to be led by someone who doesn't care about what they're building?" It feels like that's an important part of the way you work and think.

谁愿意被一个不关心自己正在建设的东西的人领导呢？”感觉这是你工作和思考方式的重要组成部分。

Is there anything you want to say about that?

对此您有什么想说的吗？

Mihika Kapoor: When I started out my product career, I actually-

Mihika Kapoor：当我开始我的产品职业生涯时，我实际上-

Mihika Kapoor: When I started out my product career, I actually joined as a RPM, or rotational product manager, at Meta, which was effectively a program that brought together new grad PMs, so people who had zero PM experience and taught them how to be PMs.

Mihika Kapoor：当我开始我的产品职业生涯时，我实际上以 RPM（轮换产品经理）的身份加入了 Meta，这实际上是一个将新毕业生 PM 聚集在一起的计划，因此那些具有零 PM 经验的人并教他们如何成为 PM。

And, in the beginning of this program, we had a series of conversations with leaders across the company.

而且，在该计划开始时，我们与整个公司的领导者进行了一系列对话。

And, one particularly notable conversation was with Julie Zhu, who was the first ever intern at Meta and the VP of design.

其中一次特别值得注意的对话是与 Julie Zhu 的对话，她是 Meta 的第一位实习生兼设计副总裁。

And, she was giving us feedback and advice about how to draft compelling product strategy, etc. And, something she said that has stuck with me throughout my entire product career is that when two people disagree about product strategy, it is because they have different assumptions.

而且，她向我们提供了关于如何起草引人注目的产品策略等的反馈和建议。而且，她说的一句话在我的整个产品职业生涯中一直困扰着我，那就是当两个人对产品策略存在分歧时，那是因为他们有不同的假设。

Because, if you have the same assumptions, there is no reason why a person should think, "We should do X versus we should do Y." And so, it's like, "Okay, how does this relate to what you were just asking about feeling deeply and caring about what you're building?"

因为，如果你有相同的假设，那么一个人就没有理由认为“我们应该做 X 而我们应该做 Y”。所以，这就像是，“好吧，这与你刚才问的关于深刻感受和关心你正在构建的东西有什么关系？”

Mihika Kapoor: I think that it's really important to not just build a roadmap because it's handed to you, or not just build an idea because it's handed to you.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为重要的是不要仅仅因为交给你而制定路线图，或者不要因为交给你而仅仅制定一个想法。

I think that you need to understand in the event that it's a top-down strategy, what are the assumptions that led to folks believing that that is the right idea?

我认为你需要了解，如果这是一个自上而下的策略，是什么假设让人们相信这是正确的想法？

And then, if it is you pushing something bottoms up, you need to be able to ensure that everyone else has the same assumptions that you have in your head that leads them to believe deeply or not believe deeply.

然后，如果你自下而上地推动某些事情，你需要能够确保其他人与你头脑中的假设相同，导致他们深信或不深信。

And I think what's really important is that people can, to Carl's point, gauge someone is about a project.

我认为真正重要的是，按照卡尔的观点，人们可以衡量某人是否参与某个项目。

And, my take is that, the more you believe in an idea, the more natural it is to be passionate about it.

而且，我的看法是，你越相信一个想法，就越自然会对它充满热情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine people listening to this will feel like, "Oh shit, I don't really love what I'm working on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想听这个的人会感觉，“哦，糟糕，我真的不喜欢我正在做的事情。

I don't work at Figma.

我不在 Figma 工作。

I don't have the best of most amazing products." Maybe it's hard to get excited about stuff.

我没有最好的、最令人惊奇的产品。”也许很难对事物感到兴奋。

Is there anything you could share there?

有什么可以分享的吗？

Just say you're working on something that you're not so passionate about, is it a fine thing, keep searching, or is it just figure out something you're excited about?

只是说你正在做一些你不太热衷的事情，这是一件好事，继续寻找，还是只是找出你感兴趣的事情？

Any advice there for someone in that boat?

对那条船上的人有什么建议吗？

Mihika Kapoor: My first piece of advice would be to not just think about the scope of what you are working on as the thing that happens to be in flight at any given moment.

米希卡·卡普尔：我的第一条建议是，不要只考虑你正在做的事情的范围，因为它是在任何特定时刻发生的事情。

But, if you're working in a company, take a step back, understand the vision of that company, and understand your users, and understand if there's anything in that space that you are passionate about.

但是，如果您在一家公司工作，请退后一步，了解该公司的愿景，了解您的用户，并了解该领域是否有您热衷的内容。

I think it's quite easy to believe that the project that you're working on is your scope.

我认为很容易相信您正在从事的项目是您的范围。

My take is that your scope is the world, and to the extent that you can figure out does the idea that you're passionate about fall within your company, versus fall outside of your company, that should guide the next steps in your career.

我的看法是，你的视野是整个世界，只要你能弄清楚你所热衷的想法是否属于你的公司，而不是属于你的公司之外，这应该指导你职业生涯的下一步。

And so, I think that potentially common misconception is that founding something is just for capital F founders, but I think that anyone can found something.

因此，我认为潜在的常见误解是，创建某些东西只是资本 F 创始人的专利，但我认为任何人都可以找到一些东西。

You can found something inside of an existing company, you can found something from scratch.

你可以在现有公司内部找到一些东西，你可以从头开始找到一些东西。

And, there are different reasons why you would do each, right?

而且，你做每件事都有不同的原因，对吧？

Mihika Kapoor: The reasons why you would found inside of an existing company is if you think that there is a distribution advantage that you want to take advantage of, if there is a technical or platform advantage that you want to take advantage of.

Mihika Kapoor：你会在现有公司内部找到的原因是，如果你认为有你想要利用的分销优势，如果有你想要利用的技术或平台优势。

Or, there's also a reality which is it's slightly less risk.

或者，还有一个现实是风险稍低。

So, depending on what your risk tolerance is, you can figure out what makes sense.

因此，根据您的风险承受能力，您可以弄清楚什么是有意义的。

There are things that are harder inside of an existing company, right?

在现有公司内部有些事情更难，对吗？

It's harder to take an executive decision.

做出行政决定更加困难。

You actually cannot take an executive decision.

您实际上无法做出行政决定。

You need to receive buy-in on every single decision that you make.

您做出的每一个决定都需要得到支持。

Sometimes it's harder to move faster.

有时，移动得更快更困难。

And then sometimes, there are things that are just different when you're starting inside of an existing company, versus starting something outright.

有时，当你在现有公司内部开始工作与直接开始某些事情时，有些事情是不同的。

Mihika Kapoor: So the things that are different is building a team is quite different.

Mihika Kapoor：所以不同之处在于组建团队是完全不同的。

The way that you recruit and the set of folks that you can recruit from, that composition is quite different.

你招募的方式和你可以招募的人员组成是完全不同的。

And then, the way that you pitch and who you are pitching to is quite different.

然后，你的推销方式和你的推销对象是完全不同的。

And so, I think that sometimes, yeah, it makes sense to found inside of a company and to use that to make your flame burn, right?

所以，我认为有时候，是的，在公司内部找到并利用它来点燃你的火焰是有意义的，对吗？

Sometimes it makes sense to found outright.

有时直接发现是有意义的。

But I think that the first key to being passionate about what you're working on is to find an idea that you're passionate about.

但我认为，对你正在做的事情充满热情的第一个关键是找到一个你热爱的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this as a metaphor of the flame where it applies both to you as a person at a company and keeping that flame going and building it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个火焰的比喻，它既适用于你作为公司的一个人，也适用于保持火焰并建立它。

And then also the idea and a project that accompanies little flame that you're growing over time, building momentum around.

然后还有伴随着小火焰的想法和项目，随着时间的推移，你会不断成长，建立动力。

So you've hinted at this whole idea of starting zero to one and building new products within larger companies, which I want to get to.

所以你暗示了从零到一开始并在更大的公司内开发新产品的整个想法，我想做到这一点。

We've gone really deep on a bunch of awesome stuff and I'm really happy we did.

我们已经深入研究了很多很棒的东西，我很高兴我们做到了。

There's four more skills of things you're amazing at.

还有四种让您惊叹不已的技能。

So here's an idea, let me share the four.

所以这是一个想法，让我分享四个。

How about you pick two that you're most passionate about that you think you have the most advice to share, and then we'll just do those, and then we'll go to what you've learned about building something completely new at a larger company?

你可以选择两个你最热衷的、你认为你有最多建议可以分享的，然后我们就做这些，然后我们将讨论你在一家大公司中学到的关于构建全新事物的知识？

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So, from folks that you work with, the four other skills, things you're amazing at, and I still want to hear the things you think you're not amazing at.

所以，从与你一起工作的人那里，你可以了解其他四项技能，以及你擅长的事情，而我仍然想听听你认为自己不擅长的事情。

One is creativity, that you have really creative solutions to problems.

一是创造力，即你对问题有真正创造性的解决方案。

Two is empathy.

二是同理心。

You're really strong at empathizing with users and using that to build amazing products.

你非常擅长与用户产生共鸣，并利用它来打造令人惊叹的产品。

Three is culture.

三是文化。

Sho tells me you're the culture carrier at Figma, which is amazing, because the culture there from what I hear is amazing.

Sho 告诉我你是 Figma 的文化载体，这太棒了，因为我听说那里的文化太棒了。

And then, four is dealing with change.

然后，第四点是应对变革。

You're amazing at just like, "Okay, cool.

你简直太棒了，“好吧，酷。

Priorities are changing.

优先事项正在发生变化。

Great, let's go.

太好了，我们走吧。

Here we go." Which of those two feel most interesting to you?

我们走吧。”您觉得这两者中哪一个最有趣？

Mihika Kapoor: Maybe we can do the latter two, because they're a little bit different than the other things we've been discussing.

米希卡·卡普尔：也许我们可以做后两个，因为它们与我们一直在讨论的其他事情有点不同。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：听起来很棒。

So, I guess culture.

所以，我猜是文化。

Let me start there.

让我从这里开始。

Okay, so yeah, Sho called you the culture carrier Figma.

好吧，是的，Sho 称你为文化载体 Figma。

I hear there's some fun things you all do there.

我听说你们都在那里做一些有趣的事情。

There's something called the hot seat, there's something called the Figgies.

有一种东西叫做“热座”，有一种东西叫做“无花果”。

First of all, can you maybe explain these two things?

首先，您能解释一下这两件事吗？

And then just broadly, what you find is important about focusing on culture as a PM?

总的来说，您认为作为产品经理关注文化最重要的是什么？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, I can definitely talk about those two things.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的，我绝对可以谈论这两件事。

So, hot seat is actually a tradition I started at our first PM offsite post-pandemic.

所以，“热席”实际上是我在大流行后我们的第一位异地总理时开始的一个传统。

So this was March of 2022.

这是 2022 年 3 月。

The PM team was sub-15 people at that point, and we all fit around a dinner table, which is no longer true today.

当时 PM 团队不到 15 人，我们都围坐在餐桌旁，但如今情况已不再如此。

And, it was really important to me that we all got to know each other in a context that was outside of work.

而且，对我来说非常重要的是，我们都在工作之外的环境中相互了解。

I think that PMing is a highly collaborative function.

我认为 PMing 是一个高度协作的功能。

And, to the extent that you have great relationships with all the teams that you're interfacing with, one is it goes a long way in terms of the product, but two, speaking about passion, it makes your day-to-day so much more fun if you feel like you're working with your friends, and if you are working with your friends.

而且，就你与所接触的所有团队都有良好的关系而言，一是它在产品方面有很大的帮助，但二是，说到激情，如果你觉得你是在和你的朋友一起工作，如果你和你的朋友一起工作，它会让你的日常生活变得更加有趣。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, we were coming out of a long intense day session, and I was thinking about, "Okay, how do we break the ice?" And, hot seat is this game where you go around the table and each person gets two minutes on the clock and everyone else at the table can ask them anything.

米希卡·卡普尔：所以，我们结束了漫长而紧张的一天会议后，我在想，“好吧，我们如何打破僵局？”而且，热点游戏是指你围着桌子转一圈，每个人都有两分钟的时间，桌子上的其他人都可以问他们任何问题。

And if they want to, they can decline to answer.

如果他们愿意，他们可以拒绝回答。

But we try and keep it, generally speaking, quite friendly and comfortable for folks.

但总的来说，我们尽力保持它对人们来说非常友好和舒适。

And so, we kicked off this game.

就这样，我们开始了这场比赛。

And, what was really interesting was earlier that day we had done a personality test, as a side note, our PM team is obsessed with personality tests.

而且，真正有趣的是那天早些时候我们做了一个性格测试，顺便说一句，我们的 PM 团队痴迷于性格测试。

Lenny Rachitsky: Which personality test, by the way?

Lenny Rachitsky：顺便问一下，哪种性格测试？

Mihika Kapoor: We to this day say the best one was the one that we did at this offsite, which is the Strengths Finder test.

Mihika Kapoor：迄今为止，我们说最好的测试是我们在异地进行的测试，即优势查找器测试。

And, what had basically happened was over the course of that morning, we had all dug into...

而且，基本上发生的事情是在那天早上的过程中，我们都深入研究了......

We were saying, "What are our strengths?

我们说：“我们的优势是什么？

What are our weaknesses?" Etc. And we had this really fun foundation to build on during the game of hot seat, where it was like, we were digging into like, "What about people's backgrounds made them think the way that they do today?

我们的弱点是什么？”等等。我们在热门席位游戏中建立了这个非常有趣的基础，我们正在深入研究，“人们的背景是什么让他们以今天的方式思考？

And, what random anecdote at age seven of playing catch with their dad in the field led to how they thought about auto layout?

而且，七岁时与父亲在田野里玩接球游戏时发生的什么轶事导致了他们对汽车布局的思考？

Blah, blah, blah, blah." And, I think that being able to understand what motivates a person is so important when you're working with them, and also just in building a connection with them.

巴拉、巴拉、巴拉、巴拉。”而且，我认为，当你与一个人一起工作时，以及与他们建立联系时，能够理解一个人的动机非常重要。

And so, that was this moment that really brought the whole team together.

所以，这一刻真正让整个团队团结在一起。

Mihika Kapoor: Something that I was really gratified to hear after is that, since then, hot seat has become a tradition within the company.

Mihika Kapoor：令我感到非常高兴的是，从那时起，热点席位已成为公司内部的传统。

And so, all the PMs went on to play it with their own teams.

因此，所有的 PM 都继续与自己的团队一起玩。

Yuki and Sho went on to play it with the exec team, so on and so forth.

Yuki 和 Sho 继续与执行团队一起玩这个游戏，等等。

And so, it's become this thing that now anytime that someone joins the team, okay, you put them in the hot seat.

因此，现在每当有人加入团队时，情况就变成这样了，好吧，你就把他们置于尴尬的境地。

And then, if you're meeting someone's significant other, you put them in the hot seat.

然后，如果你要见到某人的另一半，你就会让他们陷入困境。

And it's this thing that is just totally spread, but it's a really fun way to just get to know folks and what drives them.

这件事已经完全传播开来，但这是一种非常有趣的方式来了解人们以及他们的动力。

So, that's one of my favorites.

所以，这是我的最爱之一。

I highly recommend.

我强烈推荐。

Mihika Kapoor: The second thing that you asked about, which was the Figgies.

Mihika Kapoor：你问的第二件事是无花果。

And, this is basically an Oscar style awards ceremony that was hacked together.

而且，这基本上是一场被拼凑在一起的奥斯卡风格的颁奖典礼。

And so, where the Figgies was inspired from was actually every year we have...

因此，无花果的灵感实际上来自于我们每年......

I was mentioning like SKO, our sales kickoff.

我提到的是 SKO，我们的销售启动。

And, on the last night of SKO, there's this award ceremony, where they appreciate all of the incredible work that has taken place in the sales and marketing org.

而且，在 SKO 的最后一晚，举行了颁奖典礼，他们对销售和营销组织中所做的所有令人难以置信的工作表示赞赏。

And I saw this and I was like, "This is incredible.

我看到这个，我想，“这太不可思议了。

We should absolutely be celebrating the product team as well when we're together." And so, what I did was I basically took our Figma boardroom, which is called Bigma, and worked with another PM Elan to deck it out, and a red carpet, gold curtains, etc. And we bought little Oscar trophies for everyone, and got their names written on it, and voted people in for all of these absurd categories, like most likely to name their child Figma, most likely to go their career without writing a PRD.

当我们在一起时，我们绝对应该庆祝产品团队。”所以，我所做的就是我基本上拿走了我们的 Figma 会议室，也就是 Bigma，并与另一位 PM Elan 一起装饰它，还有红地毯、金色窗帘等。我们为每个人买了小奥斯卡奖杯，并把他们的名字写在上面，并投票选出所有这些荒谬的类别的人，比如最有可能给他们的孩子命名 Figma，最有可能在不写 PRD 的情况下开始他们的职业生涯。

Blah, blah, blah.

巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。

Mihika Kapoor: And, of course, forced everyone to give some acceptance speech.

米希卡·卡普尔：当然，还强迫每个人发表获奖感言。

But, I think that making people feel appreciated for even just the quirks and the energy that they bring to the team is something that's incredibly important.

但是，我认为让人们因为他们为团队带来的怪癖和能量而感到感激是非常重要的。

And celebrating that diversity together is something that I think goes a long way in terms of making people feel close, and also making people understand maybe someone who they don't know that well on the PM team, because then you learn, "Okay, beyond them having this Zoom background, this is what's cheeky about them.

我认为共同庆祝这种多样性大有帮助，可以让人们感到亲近，也可以让人们理解 PM 团队中可能不太了解的人，因为然后你就会知道，“好吧，除了他们有 Zoom 背景之外，这就是他们厚颜无耻的地方。

Or this is what's interesting or unique about them." And so, I think that culture is so important.

或者说，这就是他们的有趣或独特之处。”所以，我认为文化非常重要。

Figma has this core value called play, which I love, which really emphasizes just that everyone should be having fun at all times, and work should be fun, and gathering should be fun.

Figma 有一个核心价值，叫做“玩”，我很喜欢它，它真正强调的是每个人都应该时刻享受乐趣，工作应该有趣，聚会应该有趣。

And I think that I personally am a huge believer in this remote first role that we live in, you also want to take advantage of those times when you're able to get together and do things that make the team feel geographically close, even when they're geographically spread out.

我认为我个人非常相信我们所生活的这个远程第一角色，你也想利用那些能够聚在一起的时间，做一些让团队感觉在地理上很接近的事情，即使他们在地理上分散。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, it's so fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：天啊，这太有趣了。

And I love that it's just like, you did this, right?

我喜欢它就像，你做到了，对吧？

It's not like Dylan is adding all these rituals to the team.

迪伦并没有将所有这些仪式添加到团队中。

It's very bottom up.

这是非常自下而上的。

And, in theory, any PM on the team could have done this.

而且，从理论上讲，团队中的任何 PM 都可以做到这一点。

Mihika Kapoor: It's interesting, something that I had heard, Vishal Shah, who was the former head of product at Instagram say, is that, often in companies culture is set top down, and then the innovation that comes out of that is bottoms up.

Mihika Kapoor：有趣的是，Instagram 前产品主管 Vishal Shah 说，我听说公司文化通常是自上而下的，然后产生的创新是自下而上的。

And so, I think in the first place, having a value like play does a lot in order to make folks feel like these things are celebrated and time should be carved out for them.

因此，我认为首先，拥有像游戏这样的价值观可以让人们觉得这些事情值得庆祝，并且应该为他们留出时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: To come back to your original point of just culture is everything, a lot of PMs are like, "I have so much work to do.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到你最初的观点，文化就是一切，很多产品经理都会说，“我有很多工作要做。

I have so many things to do.

我有很多事情要做。

I'm just working all day every day." What can you tell them about why this is so important and worth putting some time into?

我只是每天都在工作。”您能告诉他们为什么这如此重要并值得投入一些时间吗？

And should everybody?

每个人都应该吗？

Or is it just like, "If you're excited about this, do it.

或者就像是，“如果你对此感到兴奋，那就去做吧。

If not, don't worry"?

如果没有，别担心”？

Mihika Kapoor: I think culture is important in that it establishes trust between groups of people.

米希卡·卡普尔：我认为文化很重要，因为它在人群之间建立了信任。

And so, I think that actually earlier you were asking about passion and what makes someone feel passionate about work.

所以，我认为实际上早些时候你问的是激情以及是什么让人们对工作充满热情。

And I think realistically, that passion breaks down into two things.

事实上，我认为这种热情分为两部分。

One is, are you passionate about the vision that you're building towards?

一是，您对正在实现的愿景充满热情吗？

Which we spoke about.

我们谈到过。

But the second thing is, are you passionate about the people who you work with?

但第二件事是，你对与你一起工作的人充满热情吗？

Mihika Kapoor: And, I think that roadmaps change, products change, but feeling a connection to the folks that you're working with make you much more durable as a team.

Mihika Kapoor：而且，我认为路线图会改变，产品会改变，但与你一起工作的人之间的联系会让你作为一个团队更加持久。

It means that when times get tough, which they will, your gut instinct is to rally together and collaborate together to find a solution, rather than to jump ship or something.

这意味着，当形势变得艰难时（事实确实如此），你的直觉是团结起来，共同协作寻找解决方案，而不是跳槽或采取其他措施。

I think personally, I'm in love with my team.

我认为就我个人而言，我爱我的团队。

They give me so much joy and happiness on a daily basis.

他们每天给我带来很多快乐和幸福。

I was telling them the other day that when they post prototypes in our Slack channel, sometimes I get little flutters in my chest like when you have a crush on someone.

前几天我告诉他们，当他们在我们的 Slack 频道中发布原型时，有时我的胸口会有点颤动，就像你迷恋某人时一样。

And, I think that having that emotional connection to your team is fun.

而且，我认为与团队建立情感联系很有趣。

And I think that emotional connection comes from investing in culture.

我认为情感联系来自于对文化的投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: And again, it's like, you did it.

Lenny Rachitsky：再说一遍，你做到了。

You made it happen, right?

你让这一切发生了，对吗？

It's not like, "Oh, this sucks.

这并不是说，“哦，这很糟糕。

My team's no fun." It's like, you can make it more fun.

我的团队一点也不有趣。”就像，你可以让它变得更有趣。

And I think the two examples you shared are awesome, because one is a high-end version where there's a lot of work.

我认为您分享的两个示例非常棒，因为其中一个是高端版本，需要做很多工作。

And the hot seat, it's just a quick idea that takes no work, just an idea, and then you just ask to do it, and it's there.

而热门席位，这只是一个快速的想法，不需要任何工作，只是一个想法，然后你只需要求去做，它就在那里。

Mihika Kapoor: Okay, so actually, I want to combat the perception that the Figgy's was a high production, high cost thing.

Mihika Kapoor：好吧，实际上，我想与人们认为无花果是高产量、高成本的观念作斗争。

It was very low cost.

成本非常低。

I ordered everything on Amazon and assembled it in an hour.

我在亚马逊上订购了所有东西，并在一小时内组装完毕。

And so, there are ways to be scrappy in making things come together.

因此，有一些方法可以让事情顺利进行。

And so, I would say, don't be intimidated by any idea of being too large to take on.

因此，我想说，不要被任何“太大而无法承担”的想法吓倒。

Just go for it.

就去做吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome correction.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的更正。

Okay, final trait you're great at.

好吧，最后一个你最擅长的特质。

Somebody shared that you pivot with grace and enthusiasm when things change and priorities change, projects are killed, projects are spun up.

有人分享说，当事情发生变化、优先事项发生变化、项目被终止、项目启动时，你会优雅而热情地进行调整。

There's something that a lot of people at companies just get so sad about, "Oh my God, things keep changing.

公司里的很多人都对某些事情感到非常悲伤，“天哪，事情一直在变化。

My project's killed.

我的项目被终止了。

Oh, this priority changed." It feels like you've learned to make that a superpower.

哦，这个优先级改变了。”感觉就像你已经学会让它成为一种超能力。

What can you share about what you've learned there and how to leverage that into doing great and being successful?

您可以分享一下您在那里学到的知识以及如何利用这些知识取得伟大成就并取得成功吗？

Mihika Kapoor: For this one, I could actually maybe give an example that preceded my product career, which was, when I was in college, I actually founded a national design conference for students across the country.

Mihika Kapoor：对于这个，我实际上可以举一个在我的产品职业生涯之前的例子，那就是，当我上大学时，我实际上为全国各地的学生创办了一个全国设计会议。

And the way that this came about was when I was in college, design was very much having a watershed moment in tech.

发生这种情况的方式是在我上大学的时候，设计在科技领域正处于一个分水岭时刻。

So, companies like Airbnb and Pinterest were leading an industry and they were leading not just because they built technology and made it accessible, but because they were really using the interface layer to differentiate.

因此，像 Airbnb 和 Pinterest 这样的公司正在引领一个行业，他们的领先不仅因为他们开发了技术并使其易于使用，而且因为他们真正使用界面层来实现差异化。

So there was this point where software had reached a certain level of saturation, where things that were not possible were now suddenly possible, and now suddenly possible in multiple companies.

所以到了这个时候，软件已经达到了一定程度的饱和，原本不可能的事情现在突然变得可能，现在突然在多家公司成为可能。

And design became this differentiator, which is really exciting.

设计成为了这一差异化因素，这确实令人兴奋。

But at the same time, none of this was reflected in most schools across the country.

但与此同时，这一切都没有在全国大多数学校得到体现。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, I went to Princeton and there was nothing that resembled product design in our curriculum.

米希卡·卡普尔：所以，我去了普林斯顿大学，我们的课程中没有任何类似于产品设计的内容。

And this was baffling to me, because I was like, "There is such clear momentum..." Speaking about momentum in industry about this being a profession that is so important and so influential in building the next generation of companies.

这让我感到困惑，因为我想，“有如此明显的势头......”在谈到行业的动力时，这是一个对于建设下一代公司如此重要且如此有影响力的职业。

Yet, the groundwork to make that happen wasn't really there.

然而，实现这一目标的基础并不真正存在。

And then, I interned at Facebook, and I realized that my entire class of 25 interns had very similar experiences, where they too were self-taught product designers.

然后，我在 Facebook 实习，我意识到我班的 25 名实习生都有非常相似的经历，他们也是自学成才的产品设计师。

And so, that summer, I actually watched a documentary that was coincidentally produced by Envision that featured folks like John Maeda, amongst others, and was talking about how design changed the world that we lived in, and was going to rewrite the future, which I really believed in.

因此，那年夏天，我实际上观看了一部由 Envision 巧合制作的纪录片，其中以约翰·前田 (John Maeda) 等人为主角，讲述了设计如何改变我们生活的世界，并将改写未来，这是我真正相信的。

And so, I was incentivized to found this conference called Design Nation that would democratize access to a design education and bring together top students from across the country with industry leaders.

因此，我受到激励，成立了这个名为“设计国家”的会议，该会议将使设计教育的机会民主化，并将来自全国各地的顶尖学生与行业领袖聚集在一起。

Mihika Kapoor: And originally, my plan was to build this within an organization that already existed at Princeton, because they had the funding, they had the resources, they had the expertise in order to make this a reality.

米希卡·卡普尔：最初，我的计划是在普林斯顿大学已有的一个组织内建立这个项目，因为他们有资金、有资源、有专业知识，可以使这成为现实。

And then, what actually ended up happening was they too were skeptical of the business value of design and didn't think it would be possible for something like this to be funded.

然后，最终实际发生的事情是他们也对设计的商业价值持怀疑态度，并且认为这样的事情不可能获得资助。

And so, I went from building something in a situation where I thought finances, expenditures, connections, et cetera, were totally taken care of, to having none of that and needing to build it from the ground up.

因此，我从认为财务、支出、关系等都得到了完全照顾的情况下建造了一些东西，到了这些都没有，需要从头开始建造它。

Mihika Kapoor: And, it was funny, one of the best pieces of advice I got in college was, don't underestimate the power for .edu email address.

Mihika Kapoor：而且，很有趣的是，我在大学得到的最好的建议之一是，不要低估 .edu 电子邮件地址的力量。

And I just went on a spree, cold emailing so many people, so many executives about this problem that I was trying to solve.

我就疯狂地给很多人、很多高管发了一封冷冰冰的电子邮件，讨论我试图解决的这个问题。

And, what actually ended up happening was people would hop on the phone with me, and a lot of the folks who I spoke to, designers who I really admire, like Daniel Burke, Jamie , et cetera, were folks who would be like, "Oh my God, this was such a problem when I was in college.

而且，最终实际发生的情况是，人们会和我通电话，很多和我交谈过的人，我真正钦佩的设计师，比如 Daniel Burke、Jamie 等等，他们都会说，“天哪，我在大学的时候这真是一个问题。

Of course I'll help you solve it.

我当然会帮你解决。

I can't believe it hasn't been solved yet."

我不敢相信这个问题还没有得到解决。”

Mihika Kapoor: And so, ultimately, it grew into this conference that lasted many years, brought together folks from originally around the country, then more recently around the world.

米希卡·卡普尔（Mihika Kapoor）：最终，它发展成了这场持续多年的会议，聚集了来自全国各地、最近来自世界各地的人们。

And ultimately, did live under that broader organization.

最终，确实生活在这个更广泛的组织之下。

But I think, having the ability to, in the absence of formal backing or something, still chase after something and maybe pivot the way that you're thinking about it, or pivot the way that you are allocating your own time.

但我认为，有能力，在没有正式支持或其他什么的情况下，仍然追求某些东西，也许会改变你思考它的方式，或者改变你分配自己时间的方式。

Maybe suddenly speakers is not the most important thing, fundraising is the most important thing.

也许突然间演讲者不再是最重要的事情，筹款才是最重要的。

Or, building a hype landing page so that you seem more legit than a very scrappy few-person student organization is the most important thing.

或者，建立一个炒作登陆页面，让你看起来比一个非常斗志旺盛的少数人学生组织更合法，这是最重要的事情。

And just being quite adaptable when it comes to resourcing, I think is very important.

我认为在资源配置方面具有很强的适应性非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。

It shows another trait, Mahika, in our archeological study, which has come up a bunch, and I'm just putting my finger on it, is just high agency.

它显示了另一个特征，马希卡，在我们的考古研究中，它已经出现了很多，我只是指出它，只是高度代理。

It feels like you're just consistently just like, "I'll make this happen myself.

感觉就像你一直在说：“我会自己实现这件事。

This problem exists.

这个问题是存在的。

We need more product designers in school.

我们学校需要更多的产品设计师。

I will solve that problem." And I love that.

我会解决这个问题。”我喜欢这样。

And by the way, Design Nation for folks that want to explore that, how do they find that?

顺便说一句，Design Nation 是为那些想要探索这一点的人们设计的，他们如何找到它？

And it's still going, right?

而且它还在继续，对吧？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的。

So, you can Google Design Nation.

所以，你可以谷歌设计国家。

Mihika Kapoor: And, we have a Instagram page amongst other things.

Mihika Kapoor：此外，我们还有一个 Instagram 页面。

And, yeah, last year we had folks like Stuart Weitzman and Joe Gebbia, who's one of the co-founders of Airbnb come and speak, which was super exciting.

是的，去年我们邀请了斯图尔特·韦茨曼 (Stuart Weitzman) 和 Airbnb 联合创始人之一乔·杰比亚 (Joe Gebbia) 等人来演讲，这非常令人兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And then, who is it for?

然后，它是给谁的？

It's for students?

是给学生用的吗？

People in college that want to learn to be designers?

想学习成为设计师的大学生？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, it's for design-driven college students.

Mihika Kapoor：是的，它适合以设计为导向的大学生。

I think one thing to call out is that one of my focuses in the early years was to ensure that this is for, not just capital D designers, but design driven students.

我认为需要指出的一件事是，我早年的重点之一是确保这不仅适用于资本 D 设计师，还适用于设计驱动的学生。

So, we also took engineers who are very design minded and marketers who are very design minded, et cetera, because of that core belief that the most innovative solutions will come out of people that are operating at this intersectionality.

因此，我们还聘请了非常有设计头脑的工程师和非常有设计头脑的营销人员等等，因为我们的核心信念是，最具创新性的解决方案将来自于在这种交叉领域工作的人们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So we've talked about all kinds of things you're amazing at.

我们已经讨论了你所擅长的各种事情。

Before we transition to what you've learned about just building new stuff at larger companies, which you're very good at, can you just bullet point the skills you find you're not good at?

在我们过渡到您所学到的关于在大公司构建新产品（您非常擅长）之前，您能指出您发现自己不擅长的技能吗？

I said we would come to this.

我说我们会讨论这个。

What do you think you're not good at?

你认为你不擅长什么？

And we won't go too deep here, unless you want.

除非你愿意，否则我们不会在这里深入探讨。

Mihika Kapoor: So it's interesting, because I think that there are many things that we talked about that are actually a double-edged sword in practice.

米希卡·卡普尔：这很有趣，因为我认为我们讨论的很多事情在实践中实际上是一把双刃剑。

So, let's start with the conviction piece.

那么，让我们从信念部分开始。

I think that the good thing about being high conviction is that you're able to sell forward and to get people to feel strongly about something and a next step in the future.

我认为坚定信念的好处是你能够向前推销并让人们对某件事和未来的下一步有强烈的感觉。

I think the downside of that is if there is less of a history of working together, there might be skepticism about like, "Oh, are you just pushing something because you believe in it?

我认为这样做的缺点是，如果合作的历史较少，可能会有人怀疑，“哦，你只是因为相信某件事而推动它吗？

Or are you pushing something because our users actually needed it?" And so, in those moments, it becomes really important to constantly be highlighting user proof points.

或者你之所以推出某些东西是因为我们的用户确实需要它？”因此，在那些时刻，不断强调用户证据点就变得非常重要。

Mihika Kapoor: I think, the second is scrappiness.

米希卡·卡普尔：我认为，第二是斗志旺盛。

So, I think I have a very high ability to thrive in ambiguity and to pull things together last minute.

所以，我认为我有很强的能力在模棱两可的情况下茁壮成长，并在最后一刻把事情整合在一起。

So, for example, it's very common that I am editing a product review deck minutes before we are about to present, or that I haven't started until the night before and stay up until 3:00 AM to do it.

举个例子，我经常会在即将展示之前几分钟编辑产品评论平台，或者直到前一天晚上才开始，一直熬夜到凌晨 3:00 才能完成。

And this is somewhat fine.

这有点好。

But then, I think that other people don't always love it, because they're like, "Hey, maybe let's start earlier next time." I get that.

但我认为其他人并不总是喜欢它，因为他们会说，“嘿，也许我们下次早点开始吧。”我明白了。

The third piece would be I get very consumed by the details of something.

第三部分是我对某件事的细节非常着迷。

And I think in a lot of instances, this is great.

我认为在很多情况下，这都很棒。

Also, at a certain point, sometimes you want to defer those decisions.

此外，在某个时刻，有时您想推迟这些决定。

And so, that's also an important skill to learn.

因此，这也是一项需要学习的重要技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Thanks for sharing all that.

感谢您分享这一切。

This touches on something that came up in a previous podcast episode.

这涉及到之前播客节目中出现的内容。

Nikhil from Meta had this really interesting metaphor, where every superpower has a shadow.

来自 Meta 的 Nikhil 有一个非常有趣的比喻，每个超级大国都有一个影子。

Basically, everything you're amazing at, there's something that'll be a problem, a liability basically for you.

基本上，凡是你擅长的事情，都会有一些问题，对你来说基本上是一种责任。

And so, I think, what you're pointing out is you're amazing at some of these things, but there's downsides.

所以，我认为，你所指出的是你在其中一些事情上令人惊叹，但也有缺点。

And I think that's really important for people to know.

我认为让人们知道这一点非常重要。

And we already talked about just something you believe that I also believe, it's just, you'll have things you're not good at, focus on things you're amazing at, and just getting better at those things, and use that to achieve, because it ends up being a lot more.

我们已经讨论过一些你相信我也相信的事情，只是，你会拥有你不擅长的事情，专注于你擅长的事情，然后在这些事情上变得更好，并利用它来实现，因为它最终会变得更多。

Mihika Kapoor: Also, building off of that is as you scale your team, it's really important to be self-aware of what those blind spots are and to hire for that.

Mihika Kapoor：此外，在此基础上，当你扩大团队规模时，自我意识到这些盲点是什么并为此进行招聘非常重要。

Because, you want individuals to be spiky and you want team to be well-rounded.

因为，你希望个人精力充沛，你希望团队全面发展。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great segue to talking about building completely new things at large companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是谈论在大公司构建全新事物的一个很好的延续。

So, what I hear is you're the go-to person for zero-to-one stuff at Figma, which is incredible.

所以，我听说你是 Figma 零对一工作的首选人选，这太不可思议了。

Figma is one of the most admired, successful tech companies in the world.

Figma 是世界上最受尊敬、最成功的科技公司之一。

And, you're the person people look to build completely new stuff.

而且，你是人们希望构建全新东西的人。

So, first of all, why are you so passionate about this stuff?

那么，首先，你为什么对这个东西如此热情？

Why do you want to be working on brand new stuff like this?

你为什么想从事这样的全新工作？

And why is it important for companies to be good at this?

为什么擅长这一点对公司来说很重要？

Mihika Kapoor: In order for a company to stay competitive, a company needs to stay entrepreneurial.

Mihika Kapoor：为了让公司保持竞争力，公司需要保持创业精神。

If you are not constantly thinking about what's next, defining the industry standard, seeing around the corner from your competitors, you will get taken over.

如果您不不断思考下一步是什么、定义行业标准、洞察竞争对手的情况，您就会被接管。

That is a reality.

这是现实。

And so, consequently, I personally love to screen for very entrepreneurial companies and companies that have that culture.

因此，我个人喜欢筛选非常具有创业精神的公司和具有这种文化的公司。

And so, Figma has this huge run with it culture, where run with it is also one of our core values, and it's really encouraged that people can just sprint off in a direction that is seen not as a distraction, but rather a manifestation of the company's values.

因此，Figma 拥有巨大的“run with it”文化，“run with it”也是我们的核心价值观之一，人们可以朝着一个不被视为干扰、而是公司价值观体现的方向冲刺，这确实受到鼓励。

Mihika Kapoor: And so, at the company, some of our most monumental launches have come out of hackathons and have come out of bottoms up projects.

Mihika Kapoor：因此，在公司，我们一些最具里程碑意义的发布都是来自黑客马拉松和自下而上的项目。

So recently, this week we had a launch of Multi-edit, which was a long clamored for a feature where folks can edit things across multiple frames at the same time.

最近，本周我们推出了“多重编辑”功能，这是人们长期以来一直渴望的一项功能，人们可以同时跨多个帧编辑内容。

That was a multi-year, multi-product long initiative.

这是一项多年、多产品的长期计划。

We have things like Jambot, which is an AI plugin inside of FigJam that has come out of an AI hackathon that we had last year.

我们有 Jambot 之类的东西，它是 FigJam 内部的一个人工智能插件，来自我们去年举办的人工智能黑客马拉松。

Our entire widgets platform was originally a hackathon project.

我们的整个小部件平台最初是一个黑客马拉松项目。

And so, there's this culture of celebrating things-

所以，就有了这种庆祝事物的文化——

Mihika Kapoor: ...

米希卡·卡普尔：……

project.

项目。

And so there's this culture of celebrating things that have been pushed bottoms up.

所以就有了这种庆祝那些被推到最低点的事情的文化。

And so constantly thinking about how can people within the company be entrepreneurial, both in terms of getting new products up to users and in terms of improving internal processes, is just a culture that you constantly want to be facilitating and leading into.

因此，不断思考公司内部的人员如何才能具有创业精神，无论是在向用户提供新产品方面还是在改进内部流程方面，这正是您不断想要促进和引导的文化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And clearly, Figma is very good at this.

显然，Figma 非常擅长这一点。

Let's dive a little deeper.

让我们更深入地探讨一下。

Say, somebody wants to make their culture more entrepreneurial or wants to become better at this individually, maybe just broadly, what does it take to do this well, to go from idea to, "Okay, that's a huge new product for a business"?

比如说，有人想要让他们的文化更具创业精神，或者想要在这方面做得更好，也许只是广泛而言，如何才能做好这件事，从想法变成“好吧，这对企业来说是一个巨大的新产品”？

What have you learned just broadly, what are kind of the steps or the important elements of that, well?

您大致学到了什么，有哪些步骤或其中的重要元素？

Mihika Kapoor: I think that there's this interesting metaphor that you were calling out earlier about a zero-to-one project being like a flame.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为您之前提到过一个有趣的比喻，即零到一的项目就像火焰。

And flames are interesting, because they're sort of destined to die at the end of the day.

火焰很有趣，因为它们最终注定会消亡。

And I think about the person who is pushing a zero-to-one idea as kind of being the keeper of the flame.

我认为推动“从零到一”想法的人就像是火焰的守护者。

Mihika Kapoor: And in particular, there's this metaphor that really sticks with me, which is in Greek mythology, all the gods sit on Mount Olympus, and there's this Goddess Hestia who is the keeper of the hearth, and it is her job to always keep the hearth burning, even when all the gods peace out to go on their various quests.

米希卡·卡普尔：特别是，有一个让我印象深刻的比喻，在希腊神话中，所有的神都坐在奥林匹斯山上，女神赫斯提亚是炉灶的守护者，她的工作就是让炉灶始终保持燃烧，即使所有的神都安静地出去执行他们的各种任务。

And I kind of think about the person or the team or the group of people who are pushing a zero-to-one idea as being the Hestias or the keepers of the hearth.

我认为推动零到一想法的个人或团队或一群人是赫斯蒂亚或壁炉的守护者。

And it is your job to stoke the flames and the embers if they are at risk of dying out.

如果火焰和余烬有熄灭的危险，你的工作就是煽动它们。

And it is also your job to ensure that the idea can spread like wildfire and can build that level of hype you need for an entire company or an entire set of people to be clamoring for something to get built.

你的工作也是确保这个想法能够像野火一样传播，并能够达到你所需要的炒作程度，让整个公司或一群人都强烈要求建造一些东西。

Mihika Kapoor: And so more concretely, I think that there are three things you need to do in order to be successful at bringing an idea into existence.

米希卡·卡普尔：更具体地说，我认为你需要做三件事才能成功地将一个想法变成现实。

The first is you need to have the right idea, right?

首先，你需要有正确的想法，对吧？

And that's the empathy piece.

这就是同理心。

That's the piece that you will get from having conversations day in, day out with your users.

这就是您从日复一日与用户的对话中获得的信息。

The second is you need to secure buy-in for that idea.

第二是你需要确保这个想法得到认可。

So that's the vision piece.

这就是愿景。

You need to be able to rally an entire set of folks, but honestly, most importantly, your leadership and your team behind an idea.

你需要能够团结一整群人，但说实话，最重要的是你的领导力和你的团队支持一个想法。

And then, the third is you need to be able to make it spread like that wildfire.

然后，第三个是你需要能够让它像野火一样蔓延。

You need to get it to a point where someone joins the company and they're like, "Oh, what is that flame burning there?

你需要让有人加入公司，他们会说，“哦，那里燃烧的火焰是什么？

And how can I learn more about that?"

我怎样才能了解更多相关信息？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming up with a great idea, getting buy-in for your idea, and then spreading it within the organization, what have you learned about how to actually come up with an idea that is actually a good idea?

Lenny Rachitsky：提出一个好主意，获得人们对你的想法的支持，然后在组织内传播它，关于如何真正提出一个实际上是好主意的想法，你学到了什么？

Mihika Kapoor: So it's funny because the current product that I'm working on actually came out of a conversation or a set of conversations where I was pitching FigJam to people.

Mihika Kapoor：这很有趣，因为我正在开发的当前产品实际上来自于我向人们推销 FigJam 的一次或一组对话。

And so kind of speaking about constantly having these user conversations, I think in order to have the right idea, there are two key elements.

因此，谈到不断进行这些用户对话，我认为为了获得正确的想法，有两个关键要素。

The first is you need to have that user empathy.

首先，您需要具有用户同理心。

You need to be constantly having conversations with your users, diving into what are their pain points, not only about the product that you're working on, but general perceptions about your company and also general perceptions about the other tools or products that they might be using on a daily basis.

您需要不断与用户进行对话，深入了解他们的痛点，不仅包括您正在开发的产品，还包括对您公司的一般看法，以及他们日常可能使用的其他工具或产品的一般看法。

It's not enough to have a perspective on how well you are competing in the market, but you also need to know, like understand a person's full end-to-end tooling usage.

仅仅了解您在市场上的竞争情况是不够的，您还需要了解，例如了解一个人的完整端到端工具使用情况。

Mihika Kapoor: And then, the second thing is you need to ensure that what you're kind of working towards ladders into a company goal.

Mihika Kapoor：然后，第二件事是你需要确保你正在努力实现公司目标。

And so something that's very top of mind at Figma or something that has been very top of mind at Figma has been how do we go from building for designers to covering the entire product development cycle and expanding to non-designers in particular.

因此，Figma 非常关心的事情或者 Figma 一直非常关心的事情是我们如何从为设计师构建到覆盖整个产品开发周期，特别是扩展到非设计师。

And non-designers is kind of this bucket term that we use for PMs and developers and marketers and so on and so forth, but how can we ensure that our tooling suite is reflective of all the different stakeholders that make the product development process what it is, and so I think that, yeah, just constantly having the conversation with the users and also constantly being anchored around not what are you currently working on, but what is the broader company goal is something that will help you come up with the right idea.

非设计师是我们对产品经理、开发人员和营销人员等使用的这个桶术语，但是我们如何确保我们的工具套件能够反映所有不同的利益相关者，使产品开发过程成为现实，所以我认为，是的，只要不断地与用户进行对话，并且不断地围绕着你当前正在做的事情，而不是更广泛的公司目标，这将帮助你想出正确的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such an important point, basically understanding the business, not just, "Here's my feature, here's my product, or here's what feels like a great cool thing to build." Okay, so that's the idea getting buy-in.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常重要的一点，从根本上理解业务，而不仅仅是“这是我的功能，这是我的产品，或者这是感觉像是一个很棒的很酷的东西。”好的，这就是获得认可的想法。

What have you learned about how to do that?

关于如何做到这一点，您学到了什么？

Well, clearly, you've been very successful, because we've talked about a lot of these things, building hype, creating a big vision.

嗯，显然，你们非常成功，因为我们讨论了很多这样的事情，进行炒作，创造了一个宏伟的愿景。

What else there that we haven't talked about that you think is really important?

还有哪些我们没有讨论但您认为真正重要的内容？

Mihika Kapoor: I think the key to being successful at zero-to-one is to honestly have optimism that borders on delusion.

米希卡·卡普尔：我认为从零到一取得成功的关键是诚实地保持近乎幻想的乐观态度。

You need to have insane, almost like reality distortion field where you don't hear the word no, or at the very least, you translate it into a not yet.

你需要有疯狂的，几乎就像现实扭曲场一样，你听不到“不”这个词，或者至少，你把它翻译成“还没有”。

And so I think that in terms of pitching, I'll be honest, my first few pitches of this idea were not successful.

所以我认为在推销方面，老实说，我对这个想法的前几次推销并不成功。

What basically happened was kind of like both conviction, the idea by talking to users, and then I would have ad hoc conversations with folks around the company, and I would be like, "We should do this." And they would be like, "Maybe." And I would be like, "Okay, what am I seeing?

基本上发生的事情有点像通过与用户交谈的信念和想法，然后我会与公司周围的人进行临时对话，我会说，“我们应该这样做。”他们会说，“也许吧。”我会说，“好吧，我看到了什么？

What are they not seeing?" And then, what basically happened was we had a PM off-site where we were talking about strategy for the next year.

他们没有看到什么？”然后，基本上发生的事情是我们有一位 PM 在场外讨论明年的战略。

And I, again, pitch this, and it got kind of momentum there, but not really.

我再次推销这个，它得到了某种动力，但不是真的。

Mihika Kapoor: And then, I think the third time when it actually stuck was at the Maker Week hackathon.

Mihika Kapoor：然后，我认为它第三次真正陷入困境是在创客周黑客马拉松上。

And this was kind of an insane experience for me, because I was actually hosting our hackathon.

这对我来说是一次疯狂的经历，因为我实际上正在举办我们的黑客马拉松。

So I was kind of working with our VP of design, Noah, in order to spread the word about like, "Hey, everyone pitch your ideas." And to constantly, hackathons are interesting when they're virtual, right?

所以我与我们的设计副总裁诺亚（Noah）合作，以便传播这样的信息：“嘿，每个人都提出你的想法。”一直以来，虚拟的黑客马拉松都很有趣，对吧？

Because you don't really know what people not in your office are doing, right?

因为你真的不知道不在你办公室的人在做什么，对吗？

So you're constantly thinking about like, "Okay, how can you hype up the whole company, right?

所以你不断地想，“好吧，你怎么能炒作整个公司，对吧？

How can you hype up the SF office with what people are building in New York?

你怎么能用纽约人正在建造的东西来炒作旧金山办公室呢？

And how can you ensure that London stays included even though there's a limited time zone overlap," and things like that.

即使存在有限的时区重叠，如何确保伦敦仍然被包括在内，”以及诸如此类的事情。

And so I was simultaneously thinking about, "Okay, how do we keep the momentum of this hackathon running?

所以我同时在想，“好吧，我们如何保持这次黑客马拉松的势头？

And then, also, how do I push this idea bottoms up?"

然后，我该如何推动这个想法呢？”

Mihika Kapoor: And I think that something that's really important when you're making a pitch is to not be daunted by the scale of your pitch.

米希卡·卡普尔：我认为，当你进行推介时，真正重要的是不要被你的推介规模吓倒。

So, for example, in this instance, the proposal was basically to introduce a new product.

例如，在这个例子中，提案基本上是推出一种新产品。

And building a product in a week is for all intents and purposes kind of crazy, but this is I think where the scrappiness piece comes in.

在一周内构建一个产品对于所有意图和目的来说都有点疯狂，但这就是我认为斗志旺盛的地方。

You need to be willing to be very clear about where you're willing to take the hit on quality or believability and where you need to push in order to make your thing feel believable.

你需要非常清楚你愿意在哪些方面承受质量或可信度方面的打击，以及你需要在哪些方面推动才能让你的东西让人感觉可信。

So one example of something that we did was we literally, in order to make this new product feel more real, and this was maybe a two line change in code, was we swapped out the FigJam icon in our file browser to this new icon.

因此，我们所做的一个例子就是，为了让这个新产品感觉更真实，这可能是代码中的两行更改，我们将文件浏览器中的 FigJam 图标替换为这个新图标。

Mihika Kapoor: And adding a whole new entry point is a lot of work, and you can't do that.

Mihika Kapoor：添加一个全新的入口点需要大量工作，而你无法做到这一点。

But just swapping something and taking about what exists and changing the minor things in order to communicate what is different about your idea versus what exists today is something that you really want to lean into.

但是，只是交换一些东西，考虑现有的东西，改变一些小事情，以便传达你的想法与今天现有的东西的不同之处，这是你真正想要学习的。

And what basically happened was that at the end of the week, we had this demo day, and I was going between introducing each of the demos to doing the demo and did a little wardrobe change in between.

基本上发生的事情是，在周末，我们举行了这个演示日，我在介绍每个演示和进行演示之间进行，并在中间做了一些服装改变。

And I think that what ended up being really great about presenting an idea like this in a company-wide forum, which I highly recommend, is that at that point, it becomes not just you evangelizing the idea, but your teammates and your colleagues and your peers evangelizing the idea.

我认为，在全公司范围的论坛上提出这样的想法（我强烈推荐），最终的好处是，到那时，不仅仅是你在传播这个想法，你的队友、你的同事和你的同事也在传播这个想法。

And that sense of momentum carries a lot of weight, I think.

我认为这种动力感很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this kind of leads into the next bullet point you shared of spreading the idea across the company.

Lenny Rachitsky：这引出了您分享的下一个要点，即在整个公司传播这一想法。

It feels like this is part of it just getting it spread in a big powerful way initially.

感觉这只是它最初以一种强大的方式传播的一部分。

But what else have you learned about just getting this to spread across the company?

但是，通过将其传播到整个公司，您还学到了什么？

It gets kind of like this flame spreading throughout the organization.

它有点像火焰在整个组织中蔓延。

Mihika Kapoor: I think something that's very unique about Figma as compared to other companies is we have a multi-month plus long staging or dogfooding process.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为与其他公司相比，Figma 的独特之处在于我们有一个长达数月的试演或测试过程。

And so something that was really interesting to me was...

所以对我来说真正有趣的事情是......

One of the first projects that I worked on at the company was we were building sections inside of FigJam.

我在公司从事的第一个项目是在 FigJam 内部构建部分。

And we had a problem.

我们遇到了问题。

We built it.

我们建造了它。

We put something on staging, and I was kind of like, "Okay, cool, it's been on staging a week, now we can launch, right?" And I was greeted with like, "No, we can't launch."

我们在舞台上放了一些东西，我有点想，“好吧，酷，已经表演了一个星期了，现在我们可以启动了，对吧？”我受到了类似的欢迎，“不，我们不能发射。”

Mihika Kapoor: And I think that leaning into that willingness to being vulnerable about your product and this acknowledgement that feedback is a gift, and that bits and pieces of feedback from across the company will help your product mature and get to a place where it's ready to go out the door is really important.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为，愿意对你的产品表现出脆弱的态度，并承认反馈是一份礼物，来自整个公司的零碎反馈将帮助你的产品成熟并准备好推出市场，这一点非常重要。

And what's really interesting is this helps the team who's working on the product, because you're getting feedback, and that's the most direct benefit of putting something on staging early.

真正有趣的是，这可以帮助开发该产品的团队，因为您可以获得反馈，这是尽早将某些东西投入使用的最直接的好处。

Mihika Kapoor: But the other benefit about putting something on staging early is that it makes people invested in your product.

Mihika Kapoor：但是尽早推出产品的另一个好处是它可以让人们对你的产品进行投资。

So if you think about why are betas so valuable and why are alphas so valuable, it's because when someone gives you feedback, and then the team in charge implements that change, you see that and you're like, "I shaped that part of the product." Right?

因此，如果你思考为什么 beta 如此有价值以及为什么 alpha 如此有价值，那是因为当有人向你提供反馈，然后负责团队实施该更改时，你会看到这一点，然后你会想，“我塑造了产品的这一部分。”正确的？

And to the extent that you can get as many people in the company feeling like they shaped X, Y, Z parts of the product, I think that's really powerful, because, then, you kind of are ensuring that there's this constant feedback loop, and there's this constant investment in thinking about how can we collectively drive towards success, because at the end of the day, product development is a team sport, right?

在某种程度上，你可以让公司里尽可能多的人感觉他们塑造了产品的 X、Y、Z 部分，我认为这真的很强大，因为，然后，你可以确保有这种持续的反馈循环，并且持续投入思考我们如何共同推动成功，因为归根结底，产品开发是一项团队运动，对吗？

It takes everyone to make something successful.

需要每个人才能取得成功。

And so I just think about putting things early on staging and getting people involved in the cycle as opening up the doors to the product development process, and hopefully, that just elevates the quality of the product.

因此，我只是考虑将事情尽早进行，并让人们参与到这个周期中，从而打开产品开发过程的大门，并希望这只会提高产品的质量。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else you want to touch on or share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈、分享或留给听众的吗？

Mihika Kapoor: If you have an insight that only you have, I think on one hand, you can kind of believe, "Oh, other people aren't thinking similar to me.

米希卡·卡普尔：如果你有一种只有你才有的洞察力，我认为一方面，你可以相信，“哦，其他人的想法与我不同。

Therefore, maybe, I'm wrong," but I would actually flip that, because I think if you have an insight that other people are not seeing, it is even more on you to get people onto the same page.

因此，也许我错了，”但我实际上会翻转这一点，因为我认为如果你有其他人看不到的洞察力，那么你就更有责任让人们达成共识。

And so to the extent that you can shout from the rooftops about all the insights that you're learning, I think that, in and of itself, creates a more entrepreneurial culture within the company, because chances are other people will see you doing that.

因此，如果你可以在屋顶上大声说出你正在学习的所有见解，我认为这本身就在公司内部创造了一种更具创业精神的文化，因为其他人很可能会看到你这样做。

They'll be inspired to contribute in the same way as well.

他们也会受到启发以同样的方式做出贡献。

Mihika Kapoor: I think the last thing that I would say is, which is maybe an aspect that we did not touch on, is that understanding motivations is, in my opinion, one of the keys to running a team successfully and driving an idea forward.

Mihika Kapoor：我想我要说的最后一件事是，这可能是我们没有触及的一个方面，在我看来，理解动机是成功管理团队和推动想法前进的关键之一。

So, for example, if you think about the composition of a product team, you have engineers, you have designers, you have researchers, data scientists, et cetera, and different people want to be involved in the kind of product visioning phase to a different extent.

因此，举例来说，如果你考虑一个产品团队的组成，你有工程师、设计师、研究人员、数据科学家等等，不同的人希望在不同程度上参与产品愿景阶段。

There's some people who do want a solution handed to them, because for them, the most exciting part of the process is to find the technical solution in the code.

有些人确实希望得到一个解决方案，因为对他们来说，这个过程中最令人兴奋的部分是在代码中找到技术解决方案。

On the other hand, there are other people who find it really hard to feel passionately about a thing that they have not contributed to.

另一方面，还有一些人发现很难对自己没有贡献过的事情充满热情。

And so I think to the extent that you can understand these motivations of your team, of your leadership, of your peers, and constantly ensure that you are catering to the individual, as opposed to the average, that is what, in my opinion, leads to one of the highest-functioning teams.

因此，我认为，只要你能够理解你的团队、你的领导力、你的同事的这些动机，并不断确保你迎合个人，而不是平均水平，在我看来，这就是导致运作效率最高的团队之一的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a cool point.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很酷的观点。

It comes back to the personality tests that you spoke of earlier.

这又回到了你之前提到的性格测试。

Is that the best way to figure this out?

这是解决这个问题的最佳方法吗？

Is it more just watch people and try to guess at what they're most excited about -

是否更多的是观察人们并尝试猜测他们最兴奋的是什么？

Mihika Kapoor: Oh, I think you have to directly ask them.

米希卡·卡普尔：哦，我想你必须直接问他们。

So anytime someone joins my team, especially on the engineering side, because I think this is where there's the greatest variance, I will literally ask, " How much do you like being involved in product decisions?" And to the extent that you can take decisions in the open, that is excellent.

因此，每当有人加入我的团队时，尤其是在工程方面，因为我认为这是差异最大的地方，我会直接问，“你有多喜欢参与产品决策？”如果你能公开做出决定，那就太好了。

And even if the decision is something along the lines of like, "Okay, we have four options," and you can go in with a leading point of view, but giving everyone the opportunity to voice their perspective and push back, if they want to, I think that that's very powerful.

即使决定是类似“好吧，我们有四种选择”，你也可以提出主导观点，但让每个人都有机会表达自己的观点并反驳，如果他们愿意的话，我认为这是非常强大的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议。

I feel like I could ask you questions for at least two more hours, but we're not going to do that.

我觉得我可以再问你至少两个小时的问题，但我们不会这样做。

Maybe, we'll have round two some day.

也许有一天我们会进行第二轮比赛。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Mihika, first question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：Mihika，第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, I'll start by saying that I am immediately skeptical of anyone who has not read Harry Potter.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的，我首先要说的是，我对那些没有读过《哈利·波特》的人立即表示怀疑。

So, if you're one of those people, go read Harry Potter.

所以，如果你是这些人中的一员，那就去读《哈利·波特》吧。

Maybe, it contributes to creativity.

也许，它有助于创造力。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Lenny Rachitsky: Now, we're talking about every book in the series, or at least the one book?

Lenny Rachitsky：现在，我们正在谈论该系列中的每一本书，或者至少是一本书？

Mihika Kapoor: No, no. You have to read the entire series, and you have to read it in order.

米希卡·卡普尔：不，不。你必须读整个系列，而且必须按顺序读。

It's actually funny, when I was in kindergarten, my mom bought the fifth book, and then the person at the bookstore was like, "No, no." Like, "No, no." We were like, "Okay, got it." And then, the others that I would recommend are from a fiction perspective.

这实际上很有趣，当我在幼儿园时，我妈妈买了第五本书，然后书店的人说，“不，不。”就像，“不，不。”我们说：“好吧，明白了。”然后，我推荐的其他内容都是从小说的角度来看的。

I think Pachinko by Min Jin Lee is incredibly beautiful and powerful.

我认为 Min Jin Lee 的弹珠机非常美丽且强大。

It's like a multi-generational Korean saga.

这就像一个多代韩国传奇故事。

I think I'm personally just motivated and moved by large scale things.

我认为我个人只是被大规模的事情所激励和感动。

So to see a single story traverse so many generations was very fascinating to me.

因此，看到一个故事跨越了这么多代人，对我来说非常着迷。

Mihika Kapoor: And then, from a more businessy book perspective, which is maybe more what you're getting at, I think that I honestly pseudo steer clear of how-to books, but one that has had a particularly large impact on me is Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull.

米希卡·卡普尔：然后，从更商业的书籍角度来看，这可能更像是你所理解的，我认为老实说我会假装避开指导书籍，但对我影响特别大的一本是埃德·卡特穆尔 (Ed Catmull) 写的《创意公司》(Creativity Inc.)。

And this is about the founding story and scaling of Pixar.

这是关于皮克斯的创立故事和规模。

And what was so interesting to me about this book was it basically talks about how you create a process around cultivating creativity.

这本书对我来说最有趣的是它基本上讨论了如何创建一个围绕培养创造力的过程。

And it's interesting, because creativity is so unencumbered and process is the opposite, so that's very fascinating.

这很有趣，因为创造力如此不受阻碍，而过程则相反，所以这非常令人着迷。

Lenny Rachitsky: My favorite lesson from that book is that it sticks with me as the ugly baby metaphor, which feels like so tied to the way you think and operate.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我从这本书中最喜欢的一课是，它作为丑陋婴儿的比喻一直萦绕在我心头，感觉与你的思维和运作方式息息相关。

And I won't get into it.

我不会介入。

By the way, have you read The Overstory?

顺便问一下，你读过《上层故事》吗？

Mihika Kapoor: I have not.

米希卡·卡普尔：我没有。

I'll add that to my list.

我会将其添加到我的列表中。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like, based on the way you described Pachinko, this is a book for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：根据您描述弹珠机的方式，我觉得这本书适合您。

It's a multi-generational family story that I did not actually finish.

这是一个多代人的家庭故事，我实际上并没有完成。

It's very long, but I feel like you were there.

虽然很长，但我感觉你就在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Mihika Kapoor: Favorite recent TV show would definitely be Severance.

米希卡·卡普尔：最近最喜欢的电视节目肯定是《遣散费》。

Mihika Kapoor: Oh, movie, I recently watched Dune 2 and Dune 1 in the span of a week.

Mihika Kapoor：哦，电影，我最近在一周内看了《沙丘 2》和《沙丘 1》。

It was really fun.

真的很有趣。

I watched Dune 2, because someone asked me to co-host a premiere of Dune 2 with them, and I was like, "Okay, sounds good, sounds cool, but I need to watch Dune 1."

我观看了《沙丘 2》，因为有人邀请我与他们共同主持《沙丘 2》的首映式，我当时想，“好吧，听起来不错，听起来很酷，但我需要看《沙丘 1》。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Good choice.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：不错的选择。

I just watched Dune 2.

我刚看了《沙丘2》。

I don't know if a more epic movie can be made.

不知道能不能拍出更加史诗般的电影。

I was just gripped.

我只是被抓住了。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's out of control.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：事情已经失控了。

I watched it IMAX.

我看了IMAX。

I think that was a good call, but it was stressful.

我认为这是一个很好的决定，但压力很大。

Favorite interview question they like to ask folks when you're hiring.

当你招聘时他们最喜欢问别人的面试问题。

Mihika Kapoor: I like to ask people what motivates them, but also, people often ask me, what is my favorite hot seat question, which I think is kind of similar.

米希卡·卡普尔：我喜欢问人们他们的动机是什么，而且，人们经常问我，我最喜欢的热点问题是什么，我认为这有点相似。

And my answer to that is that it's highly dependent on the person, and there's no go-to hot seat question.

我对此的回答是，这很大程度上取决于人，并且不存在热门问题。

And I almost feel the same way about interview questions.

我对面试问题也几乎有同样的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Favorite product you recently discovered that you love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是？

Mihika Kapoor: Speaking about hype, I am kind of obsessed with the browser company, Arc onboarding flow, specifically the onboarding flow.

Mihika Kapoor：说到炒作，我有点痴迷于浏览器公司、Arc 入门流程，特别是入门流程。

I think that they do such a good job of amping you up for not only the larger change that they're trying to make in terms of personal operating system, but of showing you to what extent their team thinks about the details of the product, where a lot of other products might cut corners.

我认为他们做得很好，不仅让你为他们试图在个人操作系统方面做出的更大改变做好准备，而且还向你展示了他们的团队对产品细节的思考程度，而许多其他产品可能会在这方面走捷径。

And I think their ability to communicate the ethos of their product through that is really powerful.

我认为他们通过这种方式传达产品精神的能力非常强大。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

Mihika Kapoor: And then I think the second is in the AI space.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为第二个是在人工智能领域。

I'm really excited by Pika, which is video generation, video editing software.

我对 Pika 感到非常兴奋，它是一款视频生成、视频编辑软件。

I think that, in my mind, one of the biggest shortcomings of AI, the way that a lot of people are building it today is that it's optimized for the demo or optimized for the tweet, right?

我认为，在我看来，人工智能的最大缺点之一，今天很多人构建它的方式是它针对演示进行了优化，或者针对推文进行了优化，对吗？

And it's basically this situation where I think about it as, in my mind, one of the biggest goals of AI right now is the black boxification of AI, because it's not really useful to enter a prompt and get an output that you can't interact with, because then it's like, if something's a little bit off, what are you going to do?

基本上就是这种情况，在我看来，人工智能目前最大的目标之一是人工智能的黑盒化，因为输入提示并获得无法交互的输出并不是真正有用，因为那样的话，就像，如果有些事情有点不对劲，你会怎么做？

You're kind of stuck.

你有点被困住了。

But I think Pika is doing a really great job of not just investing in the foundational video models, but also giving you the ability to manipulate the output.

但我认为 Pika 做得非常出色，不仅投资于基础视频模型，而且还为您提供了操纵输出的能力。

And so I'm excited about that approach, and I hope that more companies take you from that.

因此，我对这种方法感到很兴奋，我希望更多的公司能够引导您采用这种方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome, good choices on Arc.

Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，Arc 上的好选择。

Whenever anyone ask me for a great onboarding follow, that's the one I point people to.

每当有人要求我提供良好的入职关注时，我都会向人们指出这一点。

And we had Josh Miller on the podcast in the past, and I was proud that he pinned our interview as top of his Twitter feed for a year, which made me really happy.

过去我们的播客中有乔什·米勒（Josh Miller），我很自豪他将我们的采访固定在他的 Twitter 上一年，这让我非常高兴。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends or family that you find useful in life or in work?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾或与朋友或家人分享，并认为这对您的生活或工作很有用？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, "Life is a game of expectations." And so speaking of books and movies and things like that, I will never ever watch a movie trailer or read the back cover of a book, because I think it means that you're going into it with too many expectations.

米希卡·卡普尔：是的，“生活就是一场期待的游戏。”所以说到书籍和电影之类的东西，我永远不会看电影预告片或阅读一本书的封底，因为我认为这意味着你带着太多的期望进入它。

It either tells you all the punchlines, or it tells you the foundational backstory or something like that.

它要么告诉你所有的妙语，要么告诉你基本的背景故事或类似的东西。

And I think that, to the extent, that you go in either with no expectations or low expectations, that's the key to enjoying life.

我认为，在某种程度上，你要么没有期望，要么期望很低，这就是享受生活的关键。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。

I recently learned the same piece of advice from Kevin Kelly's recent book where it's just a book of little tidbits of advice that he's learned over his life, and one of them is like never watch the trailer if you're going to watch the movie, and I've been doing that ever since.

我最近从凯文·凯利最近的书中学到了同样的建议，这只是一本他一生中学到的小建议，其中之一就是如果你要看电影就永远不要看预告片，从那以后我就一直这样做。

I think that's an awesome piece of advice.

我认为这是一个很棒的建议。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

We talked about the Figgy's.

我们谈论了Figgy's。

You mentioned there's an award for PM least likely to write a PRD.

你提到有一个奖项奖励最不可能写 PRD 的 PM。

Was that you won the award for chance?

你获奖是偶然吗？

Mihika Kapoor: I think it was me and Sho tied.

Mihika Kapoor：我认为是我和 Sho 并列。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

I guessed correctly.

我猜对了。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Mihika, you're...

美希卡，你……

Everything, I hope you'd be on this podcast, I feel like, we could have talked for, I keep saying this, but at least two more hours maybe, we'll have a follow-up.

一切，我希望你能出现在这个播客上，我觉得，我们可以谈谈，我一直这么说，但也许至少还有两个小时，我们会有后续行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for being here and for making time.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢您来到这里并抽出时间。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and follow up on anything?

如果人们想要联系并跟进任何事情，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Mihika Kapoor: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter.

Mihika Kapoor：是的，你可以在 Twitter 上找到我。

I'm @mihikapoor.

我是@mihikapoor。

It's kind of my first name and last name smushed together.

有点像我的名字和姓氏混在一起。

And in terms of how users can be useful to me, so one is come to Config, we will be announcing both this new product, but also so many cool things that the company is working on.

就用户如何对我有用而言，我们将宣布 Config，我们将宣布这一新产品，同时也会宣布该公司正在开发的许多很酷的东西。

A lot of very exciting AI launches and more.

许多非常令人兴奋的人工智能发布等等。

And I think that having the community come together is a very special moment.

我认为社区聚集在一起是一个非常特别的时刻。

So hope to see you there.

所以希望在那里见到你。

Cough, cough, try the new product when it comes out.

咳咳，新品出来了就试试吧。

And I don't know, I'm always on the lookout for cool new products.

我不知道，我一直在寻找很酷的新产品。

I like to be someone who tries things out early, so to the extent that you see things, send them my way.

我喜欢成为一个尽早尝试新事物的人，所以只要你看到了东西，就将它们发送给我。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's going to be so many people anticipating this new product.

Lenny Rachitsky：将会有很多人期待这个新产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And the way we'll know is are you pitching and presenting it, or how do we know this is going to be your product once we see it?

我们知道的方式是您是否在推销和展示它，或者一旦我们看到它，我们如何知道这将是您的产品？

Mihika Kapoor: It'll probably be in the opening keynote, which is done by Dylan, but I'll probably give a Config talk on it as well.

Mihika Kapoor：它可能会出现在由 Dylan 完成的开场主题演讲中，但我也可能会就此进行 Config 演讲。

So that's how you will know, and I'll probably tweet about it.

所以这就是你知道的方式，我可能会发推文谈论它。

What I was actually going to do is to release the original vision deck when it launches, so you can look out for that.

我实际上要做的是在最初的愿景平台发布时发布它，所以你可以留意它。

Lenny Rachitsky: We'll be watching.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们会关注的。

I will be at Config.

我将在配置。

Lenny Rachitsky: Potentially on stage.

Lenny Rachitsky：有可能在舞台上。

Can't reveal yet what's happening exactly, but I think it's going to be awesome.

目前还不能透露到底发生了什么，但我认为这会很棒。

Anyway, Mihika, thank you again so much for being here.

不管怎样，Mihika，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Mihika Kapoor: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

米希卡·卡普尔：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

This was such a fun conversation.

这是一次非常有趣的谈话。

It was such an honor and a privilege to be on the podcast.

能够参加播客真是一种荣幸。

So, really, thank you so much for having me.

所以，真的，非常感谢你邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: The honor was mine.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这份荣誉是我的。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。