An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth)
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: ...
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：...
early days, it's very important to just go back to the basics, build the skeleton before you put on the makeup.
早期，在化妆之前回到基础、构建骨架是非常重要的。
So the first question I would ask is, do you have a website?
所以我要问的第一个问题是，你们有网站吗？
Is it fast?
快吗？
Do the search engine knows that it exists?
搜索引擎知道它的存在吗？
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
The next step would be, can people find it?
下一步是，人们能找到它吗？
If they can't find it, do you need to write content to make sure that people can find it?
如果他们找不到它，您是否需要编写内容以确保人们可以找到它？
Only after all of those questions are answered, should you then consider, do I have money?
只有当所有这些问题都得到解答之后，你才应该考虑，我有钱吗？
Can I put it behind some paid ads to make sure people come to my website?
我可以将其放在一些付费广告后面以确保人们访问我的网站吗？
You can't run a successful paid ads program if you have a website that's loading in four plus seconds.
如果您的网站加载时间超过四秒，那么您就无法成功运行付费广告计划。
So really going back to the basics and starting from a good experience at the core and then expanding step-by-step from there.
因此，真正回到基础，从核心的良好体验开始，然后从那里逐步扩展。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。
Today my guest is Meltem Kuran Berkowitz.
今天我的嘉宾是梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨。
Meltem is head of growth at Deel, which is arguably the fastest growing SaaS business of all time, possibly even faster than Ramp, which we delved into in a previous episode.
Meltem 是 Deel 的增长主管，Deel 可以说是有史以来增长最快的 SaaS 业务，甚至可能比我们在上一集中深入研究的 Ramp 还要快。
They went from $0 in revenue to a mind-boggling $300 million in revenue in three years, while also staying EBITDA positive.
三年内，他们的收入从 0 美元增至令人难以置信的 3 亿美元，同时 EBITDA 仍保持正值。
Lenny: Meltem has led their growth team from the early days.
Lenny：Meltem 从早期就领导了他们的发展团队。
And today leads all their growth efforts, including paid ads, product marketing, content, community, brand and more.
今天引领着他们所有的增长努力，包括付费广告、产品营销、内容、社区、品牌等等。
Before joining Deel, she was leading marketing efforts at Bench Accounting.
在加入 Deel 之前，她在 Bench Accounting 领导营销工作。
In our conversation, Meltem shares how Deel kick started growth through low-cost growth channels like tapping into communities like Reddit and also content and SEO.
在我们的对话中，Meltem 分享了 Deel 如何通过低成本增长渠道（例如利用 Reddit 等社区以及内容和 SEO）来启动增长。
She also talks about how she evolved her thinking on growth investments as the company grew.
她还谈到了随着公司的发展，她如何转变对成长型投资的看法。
She shares a bunch of tactical advice for how to do SEO well, how to do paid ads well, and how to structure your early growth team and prioritize your early investments.
她分享了一系列关于如何做好搜索引擎优化、如何做好付费广告以及如何构建早期增长团队和优先考虑早期投资的战术建议。
She also shares her experience building a culture of speed and optimism and so much more.
她还分享了她建立速度和乐观文化的经验等等。
Enjoy this episode with Meltem Kuran Berkowitz after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商发表简短讲话后，请与 Meltem Kuran Berkowitz 一起欣赏这一集。
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.
Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。
The best way to see what Miro is all about and how it can help your team collaborate better is not to listen to me talk about it, but to go check it out for yourself, go to miro.com/lenny.
要了解 Miro 的全部内容以及它如何帮助您的团队更好地协作，最好的方法不是听我谈论它，而是亲自检查一下，请访问 miro.com/lenny。
With the help of the Miro team, I created a super cool Miro board with two of my own favorite templates, my one pager template and my managing up template that you can plug and play and start using immediately with your team.
在 Miro 团队的帮助下，我创建了一个超级酷的 Miro 板，其中包含我自己最喜欢的两个模板，即我的寻呼机模板和我的管理模板，您可以即插即用并立即开始与您的团队一起使用。
I've also embedded a handful of my favorite templates that other people have published in the Miro-verse.
我还嵌入了一些我最喜欢的模板，这些模板是其他人在 Miro-verse 中发布的。
When you get to the board, you can also leave suggestions for the podcast, answer a question that I have for you, and generally just play around to get a sense of how it all works.
当您到达看板时，您还可以为播客留下建议，回答我为您提出的问题，并且通常只是尝试一下以了解这一切是如何运作的。
Lenny: Miro is a killer tool for brainstorming with your team, laying out your strategy, sharing user research findings, capturing ideas, giving feedback on wireframes, and generally just collaborating with your colleagues.
Lenny：Miro 是一个杀手级工具，可以与您的团队进行头脑风暴、制定策略、分享用户研究结果、捕获想法、提供线框图反馈以及通常与同事合作。
I actually used Miro to collaborate with the Miro team on creating my own board, and it was super fun and super easy.
实际上，我使用 Miro 与 Miro 团队合作创建了我自己的开发板，这非常有趣且非常简单。
Go check it out at miro.com/lenny.
请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。
That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.
那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by LMNT.
莱尼：今天的节目是 LMNT 为您带来的。
I just recently discovered this stuff actually from another podcast, and it is such sweet, salty goodness.
我最近刚刚从另一个播客中发现了这个东西，它是如此的甜，咸的美味。
LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with a science-backed electrolyte ratio.
LMNT 是一种美味的电解质饮料混合物，具有科学支持的电解质比例。
And unlike most electrolyte drinks, there's no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, gluten or any other BS.
与大多数电解质饮料不同的是，它不含糖、色素、人工成分、麸质或任何其他废话。
Getting enough electrolytes helps prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and other common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency.
摄入足够的电解质有助于预防和消除头痛、肌肉痉挛、疲劳、失眠和电解质缺乏的其他常见症状。
LMNT is the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting and many other Olympic athletes.
LMNT 是美国举重队和许多其他奥运会运动员的独家水合作伙伴。
Also dozens of NBA and NFL teams and players rely on LMNT to stay hydrated along with Navy SEAL teams, FBI sniper teams and the Marines.
此外，数十支 NBA 和 NFL 球队和球员以及海豹突击队、FBI 狙击队和海军陆战队也依靠 LMNT 来保持水分。
Lenny: You can try LMNT totally risk-free.
Lenny：你可以完全无风险地尝试 LMNT。
If you don't like it, you can share it with a salty friend and they'll give you your money back no questions asked.
如果您不喜欢它，您可以与咸味的朋友分享，他们会毫无条件地退还您的钱。
To give it a shot, go to drinklmnt.com/lenny and you'll get a free sample pack with any purchase, which includes one packet of every flavor.
要尝试一下，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/lenny，购买任何产品即可获得免费样品包，其中包括每种口味的一包。
My favorite is Watermelon Salt.
我最喜欢的是西瓜盐。
You won't find this offer publicly available, so you have to head to drinklmnt.com/lenny to take advantage of this offer.
您不会发现此优惠公开可用，因此您必须前往 Drinklmnt.com/lenny 才能利用此优惠。
Stay salty.
保持咸味。
Lenny: Meltem, thank you so much for being here, welcome to the podcast.
Lenny：Meltem，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be here.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：谢谢你们邀请我，我很高兴来到这里。
Lenny: I'm more excited that you're here.
莱尼：你来了我更兴奋。
So you're head of growth at Deel.
所以你是 Deel 的增长主管。
For people that aren't familiar with Deel, can you just give us a sense of what does Deel do briefly?
对于不熟悉 Deel 的人，您能否简单介绍一下 Deel 是做什么的？
And then also can you just share some stats around the trajectory of Deel?
然后你能分享一些关于迪尔轨迹的统计数据吗？
It feels like it's been this extraordinary journey, and I'm curious just to hear some of the stats of just how extraordinary.
感觉这是一次非凡的旅程，我很好奇只是想听听一些有多么非凡的统计数据。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, so Deel is payroll, HR, and compliance platform for global teams.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，Deel 是面向全球团队的薪资、人力资源和合规平台。
So essentially we help companies expand globally with tools like Deel HR, immigration, employer record hiring, independent contractor hiring, payroll, both global and US.
因此，本质上，我们通过 Deel HR、移民、雇主记录招聘、独立承包商招聘、全球和美国薪资等工具帮助公司在全球范围内扩张。
So whether you're trying to hire someone as a full-time employee in Japan or you're trying to make sure your contractor in Germany has everything they need on day one, our platform allows you to take care of everything all in one place.
因此，无论您是想在日本雇用某人作为全职员工，还是想确保您在德国的承包商在第一天就拥有他们所需的一切，我们的平台都可以让您在一个地方处理所有事情。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And when I joined Deel, actually that was around July, 2020, we were less than a million dollars in ARR.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：当我加入 Deel 时，实际上是在 2020 年 7 月左右，我们的 ARR 还不到 100 万美元。
And then over time, within the first year on January, 2021, we were at $4 million ARR.
随着时间的推移，在 2021 年 1 月的第一年，我们的 ARR 达到了 400 万美元。
We finished 2021 with 57 million.
2021 年，我们的销量达到 5700 万。
April '22, we were looking at a hundred million.
22 年 4 月，我们的目标是一亿。
And then we started off this year with $295 million in ARR.
今年年初，我们的 ARR 为 2.95 亿美元。
And what we're particularly proud of is that we've been EBITDA positive.
我们特别自豪的是我们的 EBITDA 为正值。
So that's something that we are very, very proud of on top of the ARR growth.
因此，除了 ARR 增长之外，我们还感到非常非常自豪。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And you said that you were super early at Deel.
你说你在迪尔非常早。
Can you give us a sense of just how early and what that was like?
您能给我们介绍一下具体发生的时间和情况吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I was the second hire to the marketing team, and I was I believe either employee 19 or 20 on the overall Deel team.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我是营销团队的第二位员工，我相信我是整个 Deel 团队中的第 19 号或第 20 号员工。
Lenny: We had the head of product from Ramp on this podcast, and it feels like there's this little bit of which company grew faster early on in the trajectory of the two, but we don't have to debate it.
Lenny：我们的播客中有来自 Ramp 的产品负责人，感觉在这两家公司的发展轨迹中，有一点是哪家公司在早期发展得更快，但我们不必争论这一点。
It feels like these are maybe the two fastest growing SaaS businesses in history.
感觉这可能是历史上增长最快的两家 SaaS 业务。
Does that sound about right?
听起来对吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: That's true, yeah.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：确实如此，是的。
So Ramp was the first one to be crowned the fastest growing, and then we took that crown from them.
所以 Ramp 是第一个被评为增长最快的公司，然后我们从他们手中夺走了这个桂冠。
So I think we're both right, in that at a certain point in time we've each been the fastest growing.
所以我认为我们都是对的，在某个时间点我们都是增长最快的。
But they're amazing.
但他们很棒。
Lenny: What I want to start with is something that I heard about you, which is that you specialize in cheaper growth channels, and that's actually the reason that Deel ended up hiring you, is they wanted to find ways to grow cheaply.
莱尼：首先我想谈谈我听说过的关于你的事情，那就是你专注于更便宜的增长渠道，这实际上是迪尔最终雇用你的原因，他们想找到廉价增长的方法。
And so a couple of questions.
还有几个问题。
One is just, what did you find worked really well from that perspective at Deel?
一个问题是，从这个角度来看，你发现在 Deel 的哪些方面非常有效？
And then two, what are today's maybe cheaper growth channels that you think people are under investing in?
第二个问题，您认为人们正在投资的当今可能更便宜的增长渠道是什么？
Whatever you're willing to share there, I don't know if you want to give away all your secrets.
无论你愿意在那里分享什么，我不知道你是否想泄露你所有的秘密。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I'm happy to give away all and everything.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我很高兴放弃一切。
So I think before we dive into the list of cheap channels, which I will get to, it's very important to notice, especially in the B2B world, most of the businesses are started because there's an active problem.
因此，我认为在我们深入研究廉价渠道列表之前（我将要介绍这一点），值得注意的是，特别是在 B2B 领域，大多数业务都是因为存在活跃问题而启动的。
And so when you go out to the market and try to answer people's questions, people don't want to be sold to, they want their problem solved.
因此，当你走进市场并试图回答人们的问题时，人们不想被卖给他们，他们希望他们的问题得到解决。
So those cheaper channels are often places where people are just trying to get an answer to their question.
因此，那些更便宜的渠道通常是人们只是想得到问题答案的地方。
So whether that be search engine optimization through the articles that you write for people, looking onto Reddit where people are asking these questions in communities, forming partnerships with other groups that are trying to answer these questions, existing communities where other business leaders are connecting with each other and looking at their peers to find answers to shared problems that they're having, or places like Quora.
因此，无论是通过为人们撰写的文章进行搜索引擎优化，还是在 Reddit 上人们在社区中提出这些问题，与其他试图回答这些问题的团体建立合作伙伴关系，在现有社区中其他业务领导者相互联系并查看他们的同行以找到他们所遇到的共同问题的答案，或者像 Quora 这样的地方。
That's, when you think about cheap channels, that's a really good place to start, is just add value to people, answer their questions.
也就是说，当你考虑廉价渠道时，这是一个非常好的起点，只是为人们增加价值，回答他们的问题。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And when you answer their questions and present your solution, if it's a fit to what they're looking for, that ends up being a cheap channel for you.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：当你回答他们的问题并提出你的解决方案时，如果它适合他们正在寻找的东西，那么这最终对你来说是一个便宜的渠道。
You don't necessarily have to advertise, when you go to Reddit and you set up those keywords to be tracking when people ask certain questions, you're not paying any money to do that.
你不一定需要做广告，当你去 Reddit 并设置这些关键字来跟踪人们提出某些问题时，你不需要为此支付任何费用。
You're just seeing, oh, someone has this question, I have the answer to that, here you go.
你只是看到，哦，有人提出这个问题，我有答案，就在这里。
And connecting with them, it takes time.
与他们建立联系需要时间。
But early on, those were a lot of the things that we invested in.
但在早期，我们投资了很多东西。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And I think a lot of people jump that because they think, "Oh, it's one person here, two people there." But when you start helping people, that combined with word of mouth, and guess what, these are digital places, you provide one answer and your answer lives out there for other people to repeatedly refine.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我认为很多人都会跳过这一点，因为他们认为，“哦，这里是一个人，那里是两个人。”但当你开始帮助人们时，结合口碑相结合，你猜怎么着，这些都是数字化的地方，你提供了一个答案，你的答案就在那里供其他人反复完善。
As long as we're not talking about a closed Slack community, maybe a conversation happening in DMs.
只要我们不是在谈论封闭的 Slack 社区，对话就可能发生在 DM 中。
So when I think about cheap channels, I think about where are people asking the questions, that might be Google or that might be Reddit or any other channel, and providing them the answers, so they know that your solution exists.
因此，当我考虑廉价渠道时，我会考虑人们在哪里提出问题，可能是 Google，也可能是 Reddit 或任何其他渠道，并向他们提供答案，以便他们知道您的解决方案存在。
Lenny: Okay, this is awesome.
莱尼：好的，这太棒了。
So this Reddit example is that, which you actually did, you set alerts for when people have questions about HR hiring internationally I imagine, and then had someone go in there and give them some advice?
所以这个 Reddit 的例子是，你实际上是这样做的，当人们对国际人力资源招聘有疑问时，你设置警报，然后有人进去给他们一些建议？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes, exactly that's what we did.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，我们就是这么做的。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: It's important to notice that if you're looking at a subreddit of about a thousand people, recognize the upper size of this audience, you're not going to win 5,000 businesses through that Reddit community, but you're maybe going to win 10% of the people there that are having this problem.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：值得注意的是，如果您正在查看大约 1000 人的 Reddit 子版块，并认识到该受众群体的上限，那么您不会通过该 Reddit 社区赢得 5,000 家企业，但您可能会赢得那里有此问题的 10％ 的人。
So it's very important when investing in these cheap channels to focus on what's the upper limit of the audience size.
因此，在投资这些廉价频道时，关注受众规模的上限是非常重要的。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And also I see a lot of people sometimes go blindly into SEO.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我还看到很多人有时会盲目地进行 SEO。
They're like, "We're just going to write content," which I'm a huge fan of SEO, happy to discuss that later, but if people aren't asking this question to Google, you can write all the content you want, it doesn't matter, nobody's going to find it.
他们就像是，“我们只是要写内容”，我是 SEO 的忠实粉丝，很高兴稍后讨论这个问题，但如果人们不向 Google 问这个问题，你可以写你想要的所有内容，没关系，没有人会找到它。
Lenny: I love this so much, because it connects with something I find again and again, is one of the more effective early growth channels is tapping into an existing community and piggybacking off of what they've already built.
Lenny：我非常喜欢这个，因为它与我一次又一次发现的东西联系在一起，是更有效的早期增长渠道之一，即利用现有社区并利用他们已经建立的东西。
Airbnb is a little bit of an example where they went to Craigslist.
Airbnb 就是他们访问 Craigslist 的一个例子。
Actually most people pull people off Craigslist, Uber pull people off Craigslist, Lyft, so many companies just piggybacked off Craigslist and built up their own company.
事实上，大多数人都把人从 Craigslist 上拉下来，Uber 把人从 Craigslist 上拉下来，Lyft，所以很多公司只是借用 Craigslist 建立了自己的公司。
Lenny: But what you said is so important, which is you can't just go into a community and be like, "Hey, everyone, check out what I've got." You need to add value to people and add value to the community, otherwise no one's going to pay attention to you, they're going to kick you out.
莱尼：但是你所说的非常重要，那就是你不能只是进入一个社区然后说：“嘿，大家，看看我有什么。”你需要为人们增加价值，为社区增加价值，否则没有人会关注你，他们会把你踢出去。
Lenny: And so I think that is a really important insight is if you're trying to say piggyback off of a community, the most important thing is you need to add value to the community.
莱尼：所以我认为这是一个非常重要的见解，如果你想借用一个社区，那么最重要的是你需要为社区增加价值。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, be someone people actually want to talk to.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，成为人们真正想与之交谈的人。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Is there a tool that you found for that Reddit strategy of just how to know if someone's talking about hiring say internationally?
您是否找到了一个适用于 Reddit 策略的工具，即如何知道某人是否在谈论国际招聘？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I did a very janky assistant setup, I'm not proud of it, but it works.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我做了一个非常简陋的助手设置，我并不为此感到自豪，但它确实有效。
Someone else out there built it and I just plugged in the keywords we were looking for into it.
其他人构建了它，我只是将我们正在寻找的关键字插入其中。
Lenny: I know it wasn't just Reddit, and I'm curious what else you found was worth your time, but how did you figure out that's where your potential community and potential users were spending time?
Lenny：我知道不仅仅是 Reddit，我很好奇你发现还有哪些值得你花时间的地方，但你是如何发现你的潜在社区和潜在用户会花时间的呢？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Well, I think over time Reddit became the place that you go to when you want peer answers, whether that peer is someone right next to you or someone halfway across the world.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：嗯，我认为随着时间的推移，当你想要同行的答案时，Reddit 就成为了你去的地方，无论那个同行是你旁边的人还是远在地球另一端的人。
So it was a very obvious place for me to go to understand, what's top of mind for my audience?
因此，对于我来说，这是一个非常明显的地方，可以了解我的观众最关心的是什么？
But also there are so many subreddits, whether it's founders or HR managers, that people are just asking their community.
但 Reddit 的子版块太多了，无论是创始人还是人力资源经理，人们只是询问他们的社区。
Because oftentimes they have very specific questions.
因为他们常常有非常具体的问题。
You can't just ask that to Google because they have one thing that means that they might not be able to qualify for the exact solution that is what's most used out there.
你不能只向谷歌提出这个问题，因为他们有一件事意味着他们可能无法获得最常用的确切解决方案。
So Reddit just became the place over the years for people to ask their specific questions semi-anonymously and get answers from their community, and multiple answers to be able to judge which works better versus didn't.
因此，多年来，Reddit 成为人们半匿名提出具体问题并从社区获得答案的地方，并且可以通过多种答案来判断哪种效果更好，哪种效果更好。
So it was one of the first places that myself and my team went to.
所以这是我和我的团队最先去的地方之一。
Lenny: And is this something that worked really well, mostly at the beginning to kickstart growth or how early was this?
莱尼：这种方法真的很有效吗？主要是在开始时促进增长，或者说是多早发生的？
And then how much of your growth would you say came from this sort of strategy early on?
那么您认为早期的增长有多少来自于这种策略？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I believe I set up that little keyword tracking within the first day of me starting my role at Deel.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我相信我在 Deel 任职的第一天就设置了这个小关键字跟踪。
So it was very, very early.
所以时间非常非常早。
And we still do this by the way.
顺便说一句，我们仍然这样做。
We still provide answers across Reddit, Quora communities.
我们仍然在 Reddit、Quora 社区中提供答案。
We're still out there connecting with people.
我们仍然在那里与人们联系。
Over time, of course, it went from maybe being 15% of our funnel to less than 5% of our funnel because the rest of our funnel has grown a lot.
当然，随着时间的推移，它从占我们漏斗的 15% 变成了不到 5%，因为我们漏斗的其余部分已经增长了很多。
But the next number of people that we get to share our solution with through those channels have continued to grow over time.
但随着时间的推移，我们通过这些渠道分享解决方案的人数不断增加。
Lenny: Coming back to something I asked that I want to touch on is, in today's world are there any cheaper growth channels that you are excited about?
莱尼：回到我问的我想谈的问题是，当今世界有没有让您感到兴奋的更便宜的增长渠道？
Or is it essentially the same idea?
或者本质上是同一个想法？
Look for where your potential users are and ideally asking questions that you could help answer?
寻找您的潜在用户在哪里，最好提出您可以帮助回答的问题？
Is that roughly how you think about it still?
您现在大概也是这么想的吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: That is still roughly how I think about it.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我仍然大致这么认为。
I would add social channels to that as well.
我也会添加社交渠道。
I think Twitter's a great place, people ask questions oftentimes, so there are communities.
我认为 Twitter 是一个很棒的地方，人们经常提出问题，所以有社区。
And when someone has answered that question, other people piggyback off of that.
当有人回答了这个问题时，其他人就会跟着回答。
But anywhere where someone is asking a question, I would consider to fall into this category of a cheap channel.
但只要有人问问题，我就会考虑属于廉价渠道这一类。
Lenny: What's an example of answering a question in a value-add way versus a maybe less effective way in your experience?
Lenny：根据您的经验，以增值方式回答问题与以不太有效的方式回答问题的例子是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I would say the least effective way would be, "Hey, we've solved that problem, check out our website." Okay, cool, if you have five seconds, do that.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我想说最有效的方法是，“嘿，我们已经解决了这个问题，请查看我们的网站。”好吧，酷，如果你有五秒钟，就这么做吧。
But the value-add way would be explaining what the solution to that problem is.
但增值方式是解释该问题的解决方案是什么。
Because the reality is there are a lot of people out there who can probably solve this, and then providing your solution, but answer their question first, and then let them decide if they want to come with you or go with someone else.
因为现实情况是，有很多人可能可以解决这个问题，然后提供你的解决方案，但首先回答他们的问题，然后让他们决定是要和你一起去还是和其他人一起去。
But the whole point of someone asking a question isn't to be sold a solution.
但提出问题的目的并不是为了推销解决方案。
It's like, "I just need an answer." So genuinely treat this person like a friend of yours, answer their question, be like, "Yes, it's doable.
就像“我只需要一个答案”。因此，真诚地像对待你的朋友一样对待这个人，回答他们的问题，就像，“是的，这是可行的。
No, it's not doable.
不，这是不可能的。
Yes, you can do it, but you need to consider X, Y, Z.
是的，你可以做到，但你需要考虑X、Y、Z。
If you want to learn more about it, you can chat with us."
如果你想了解更多，可以和我们聊聊。”
Lenny: And these were people on the team or you answering these questions, it wasn't some automated system?
莱尼：这些是团队中的人或者你回答这些问题，这不是一些自动化系统？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: It was never automated.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：它从来都不是自动化的。
It still isn't today.
今天仍然不是。
We would never automate our interactions with people.
我们永远不会自动化与人的互动。
So early days, it was myself, the other people on my team, our co-founders, which to this day they still do by the way.
早期，是我自己、我团队中的其他人、我们的联合创始人，顺便说一句，直到今天他们仍然这样做。
So it's a lot of people on the team.
所以团队里有很多人。
Every single person on the team has access to these.
团队中的每个人都可以访问这些内容。
And whoever is the first person to jump in will flag it.
无论谁是第一个跳进去的人都会标记它。
And sometimes you'll see on a Twitter, someone will write a question, there's three people from Deel team has answered.
有时你会在 Twitter 上看到，有人写了一个问题，Deel 团队的三个人已经回答了。
We're like, "Okay, I think enough of us have provided value here."
我们会说，“好吧，我认为我们中有足够多的人在这里提供了价值。”
Lenny: That's amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I'm spending a lot of time on this, but this is such an interesting and important tactic that clearly worked to help you all start and it's cheap.
我在这方面花了很多时间，但这是一个非常有趣且重要的策略，显然可以帮助大家开始，而且成本低廉。
And most, at least B2B, companies could probably leverage this.
大多数公司（至少是 B2B 公司）可能可以利用这一点。
So when people are thinking about where to go, maybe do this, you mentioned Twitter, maybe Reddit, maybe Quora.
因此，当人们考虑去哪里时，也许可以这样做，你提到了 Twitter，也许是 Reddit，也许是 Quora。
Is there anything else, just like the sphere of potential places founders can go think about whether maybe people are asking questions they could answer there?
还有其他什么吗，就像创始人可以去思考人们是否会提出他们可以回答的问题的潜在领域一样？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, there are a lot of closed communities, so there are still ...
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，有很多封闭的社区，所以仍然有......
they could be Slack communities, Discord, places that founders choose to connect with other founders.
它们可以是 Slack 社区、Discord、创始人选择与其他创始人联系的地方。
Or we have partnerships with places like the Y Combinator, where once you go through a certain program or you qualify to be in the club, whatever that club may be, you get to get access to this community where you can talk to other people.
或者我们与 Y Combinator 等地方建立了合作伙伴关系，一旦您完成某个计划或您有资格加入俱乐部，无论该俱乐部是什么，您都可以访问这个社区，在那里您可以与其他人交谈。
So those are considered closed communities.
所以这些被认为是封闭的社区。
It's not as easy to gain access to.
获得访问权限并不那么容易。
But if you can find a way to gain access to those communities, they're also great places to be.
但如果您能找到进入这些社区的方法，它们也是不错的去处。
Lenny: And then step number one is add value, right?
莱尼：那么第一步就是增加价值，对吧？
Lenny: You can't just get in the community, "Hey, check out Deel everyone."
莱尼：你不能只是进入社区，“嘿，大家看看迪尔。”
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Otherwise you'll just get kicked out.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：否则你就会被踢出去。
You can try not adding value, you're not going to last very long.
你可以尝试不增加价值，你不会持续很长时间。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
If you think about the pie chart of how growth happened at Deel early on and then today, what would that roughly look like?
如果您考虑一下 Deel 早期和今天的增长情况的饼图，大致会是什么样子？
What percentage of early growth came through this versus SEO or whatever else worked, and then today?
与 SEO 或其他有效的方法相比，通过此实现的早期增长百分比是多少，然后今天呢？
Whatever you can share of where growth comes from.
无论您能分享什么，都可以分享增长的来源。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Today, roughly about I would say 50% of our growth continues to come from what we would consider non-paid channels, through whether it be partnerships, SEO, these kinds of moderations.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：今天，我想说，我们的增长大约有 50% 继续来自我们认为的非付费渠道，无论是合作伙伴关系、搜索引擎优化还是这些类型的调节。
So early on that was more close to 80% to 90%.
早期这个比例更接近 80% 到 90%。
But that number has grown.
但这个数字已经增长。
Again, the net number has grown, but the percentage of the overall value has shrunk because other channels have also grown significantly.
同样，净数量增长了，但占总价值的百分比却缩小了，因为其他渠道也大幅增长。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So let's talk about SEO.
那么我们来谈谈SEO。
First of all, how important has that been to the success and growth of Deel?
首先，这对 Deel 的成功和发展有多重要？
And then also just what have you learned about what is important to get SEO right?
那么您还了解到什么是正确进行 SEO 的重要因素吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：是的。
So I would say for SEO, the biggest mistake people make is they will just shove keywords.
所以我想说，对于搜索引擎优化，人们犯的最大错误就是他们只会推销关键词。
They're like, "Okay, these are the keywords people are searching for, I need to make sure I mention it five times." Obviously do that, make sure that the content that you wrote answers the question.
他们会说，“好吧，这些是人们正在搜索的关键词，我需要确保提到它五次。”显然要这样做，请确保您所写的内容回答了问题。
But the main thing to think about it is, is the Google search over?
但主要要思考的是，谷歌搜索结束了吗？
If someone reads your content, if they typed in something to Google, and then they read the article that you've published, are they going back to Google to continue reading more or is the Google search over?
如果有人阅读您的内容，如果他们在 Google 中输入内容，然后阅读您发布的文章，他们会返回 Google 继续阅读更多内容还是 Google 搜索结束？
Because ultimately that's what the search engines care about is, I want to make sure this person gets their answer quickest way possible.
因为最终这就是搜索引擎所关心的，我想确保这个人以尽可能快的方式得到答案。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So when you think from that perspective, it's much easier to actually write things that people want to read, and you're not just meandering and going on and on, shoving a bunch of keywords that people are just like, "I'm bored, I'm bouncing, I'm going somewhere else."
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以，当你从这个角度思考时，真正写出人们想读的东西就容易多了，而且你不只是漫无目的、不断地推入一堆人们会说的关键词，“我很无聊，我在跳动，我要去别的地方。”
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So asking that question of, is the search over is a really good place to start, instead of just shoving keywords.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以问这个问题，搜索是否是一个很好的起点，而不仅仅是推送关键词。
And our content team is amazing.
我们的内容团队非常棒。
I would say they're more of an operational team than they are a creative team.
我想说，他们更像是一个运营团队，而不是一个创意团队。
The way they run things, the way they publish the articles, there's a very clear framework that is used to decide what gets published when and what doesn't get published by the same token.
他们运行事物的方式，他们发布文章的方式，有一个非常清晰的框架，用于决定何时发布什么以及不发布什么。
So all of those things are very important to consider, instead of just being like, "Oh, this keyword has 10,000 monthly visitors, I'm just going to write a bunch of things about that."
因此，所有这些事情都需要考虑，而不仅仅是“哦，这个关键词每月有 10,000 名访问者，我只是要写一堆关于它的东西。”
Lenny: What's an example of a page that you wrote that ends people search and gives them what they need?
莱尼：您编写的结束人们搜索并为他们提供所需内容的页面示例是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: A lot of people wonder what an EOR is because that's an employer of record.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：很多人想知道 EOR 是什么，因为这是有记录的雇主。
They tend to be confused about exactly what that is.
他们往往对那到底是什么感到困惑。
So we do very well in explaining to people what EOR is and isn't and what its limitations are.
因此，我们很好地向人们解释了 EOR 是什么、不是什么以及它的局限性。
Because the first question that you will have after the EOR question's answered is, okay, what's the downside?
因为在回答 EOR 问题后您遇到的第一个问题是，好的，缺点是什么？
When do I need to not use it?
我什么时候需要不使用它？
So for us, that's one of the content pieces that does very well.
所以对我们来说，这是做得很好的内容之一。
Lenny: I'd love to spend more time on this operational element of the SEO team.
Lenny：我愿意花更多的时间在 SEO 团队的这个运营部分上。
Maybe one question is just what is that bar that tells you that it's ready to publish and worth going out versus it's not ready?
也许有一个问题是，告诉您它已准备好发布并且值得发布的栏是什么，而不是它还没有准备好？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：是的。
So I can't take credit to this, this is all of our team's work.
所以我不能将此归功于我，这是我们团队的全部工作。
But we have this framework that we call the traffic light system.
但我们有这个框架，我们称之为交通灯系统。
Essentially we go, whenever the team is going to do a content series, they will go and find up to 700 keywords.
基本上，每当团队要制作一个内容系列时，我们都会去寻找最多 700 个关键词。
These are keywords that are related to what we do.
这些是与我们所做的事情相关的关键词。
So they might be closely related, they might be distant related.
所以他们可能是近亲，也可能是远亲。
And then those set of keywords get ranked by highest volume to the lowest volume.
然后这些关键词集按照最高数量到最低数量进行排名。
So then you have an Excel sheet, keywords on the left, volume on the right.
这样你就有了一张 Excel 工作表，关键字在左边，音量在右边。
And then you go one by one.
然后你就一一进行。
This does take time.
这确实需要时间。
And then say, what is the intent of someone searching this keyword?
然后说，某人搜索这个关键词的意图是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Is this a university student looking to write an article and they're never going to become our customer?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：这是一名想要写文章的大学生，但他们永远不会成为我们的客户吗？
Or is this someone that is actually looking to solve their existing solution and they are going to become our customer?
或者这个人实际上正在寻求解决他们现有的解决方案并且他们将成为我们的客户？
So with that, you get the green light ones, which is the intent is very high, this person wants our solution.
这样一来，你就获得了绿灯，这就是意图非常高，这个人想要我们的解决方案。
The yellow light is intent, could be they are a 50:50, maybe they're looking to buy our solution, maybe it's not soon enough.
黄灯是故意的，可能是他们是 50:50，也许他们想购买我们的解决方案，也许还不够快。
And then the red is, this person is not looking to buy our solution, they're just doing this search for any other reason.
然后红色表示此人并不打算购买我们的解决方案，他们只是出于任何其他原因进行此搜索。
So when you do that, then you go from the greens, highest volume to the lowest volume, yellows, highest volume to the lowest volume, and oftentimes you never get to the reds.
因此，当你这样做时，你会从绿色、最高音量到最低音量、黄色、最高音量到最低音量，而且通常你永远不会到达红色。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
And then once you have say a keyword, say a green, I guess, it's a green keyword where it's high intent and high volume, what is the process to actually put together an article that works for SEO?
然后，一旦你说出一个关键字，比如说一个绿色，我想，这是一个绿色关键字，它的意图高且数量大，那么实际整理一篇适用于 SEO 的文章的过程是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So step one is understanding the search intent.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：第一步是了解搜索意图。
Why is someone typing that?
为什么有人打字？
What are they trying to understand?
他们想了解什么？
And a part of that is going to Google and figuring out, what is Google servicing today?
其中一部分将交给谷歌并弄清楚，谷歌今天提供什么服务？
So one of the examples that I always give people of when you type EOR into Google, it doesn't give you employer of record, it gives you enhanced oil recovery, because most of the people typing EOR to Google is looking for that solution.
因此，我总是给人们举的一个例子是，当您在 Google 中输入 EOR 时，它不会为您提供记录在案的雇主，而是会提高石油采收率，因为大多数在 Google 中输入 EOR 的人都在寻找该解决方案。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Now, if my team blindly went in and said, "We're going to rank for EOR," we're never going to rank for that because that's not what Google gives people because that's not what people have been looking for.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：现在，如果我的团队盲目地进去说，“我们要对 EOR 进行排名”，我们永远不会对此进行排名，因为这不是 Google 为人们提供的，因为这不是人们一直在寻找的。
So first is understanding, what are people looking for?
所以首先是理解，人们在寻找什么？
And creating a content piece that answers those questions.
并创建一个回答这些问题的内容。
Oftentimes the bottom part of Google where it says, the next questions that you should be asking is a really good place to go to understand, okay, after someone's done with this search, what's the next question that they ask?
通常，谷歌的底部会说，您应该问的下一个问题是一个非常好的地方，可以理解，好吧，在某人完成此搜索后，他们问的下一个问题是什么？
And the next one and the next one.
还有下一张和下一张。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So figuring out what do people want to get out of this?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：那么弄清楚人们想从中得到什么？
And then there are a myriad of SEO solutions tools that you can use out there to ensure that the content you've written is in a simple enough language that someone with a fifth grade reading level can understand.
然后，您可以使用无数的 SEO 解决方案工具来确保您编写的内容采用足够简单的语言，以便五年级阅读水平的人可以理解。
That you actually did the right things, you put the right keywords in the right places.
您实际上做了正确的事情，将正确的关键字放在正确的位置。
I almost think of keywords as like, that's your address, that's how you give Google, please send people my way.
我几乎把关键字想象成这样，那就是你的地址，这就是你给谷歌的方式，请把人们送到我的方式。
So you can use many tools.
所以你可以使用很多工具。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: We use Clearscope, we love it.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们使用 Clearscope，我们喜欢它。
So those are the tools that you use.
这些就是您使用的工具。
And then it gets published.
然后它就会被发布。
And oftentimes those tools will give you a score to say you're an A plus or you're a C minus, you need to make your language less sophisticated, currently it's at university level and we need it to be at fourth grade reading level.
通常这些工具会给你一个分数，表示你是 A+ 或 C-，你需要让你的语言不那么复杂，目前它处于大学水平，我们需要它达到四年级的阅读水平。
Lenny: What is the structure of the content team at this point, how many people is it, and what are their rough focuses?
Lenny：目前内容团队的结构是怎样的，有多少人，他们的大致重点是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Fun fact about our content team, the person that leads it was one of the earliest employees at Deel, I want to say number two or three.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：关于我们内容团队的有趣事实，领导该团队的人是 Deel 最早的员工之一，我想说第二或第三位。
So the person there is just so special to our entire company.
所以那里的人对我们整个公司来说都很特别。
And so the structure of the content team for us is, it is led by our director of content.
因此，我们内容团队的结构是，由我们的内容总监领导。
We have one person that is in charge of all of the operations.
我们有一个人负责所有的运营。
So that is working with our freelancers, making sure that the briefs are sent out, making sure that the fact checking is done on time, that the articles are published on the website, and tracking and everything, they run the machinery on the backend.
因此，这就是与我们的自由职业者合作，确保发送简报，确保按时完成事实核查，确保文章发布在网站上，并进行跟踪和一切，他们在后端运行机器。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And then we have different people focused on different areas of content because you need to have expertise that you build over time to write properly.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：然后我们有不同的人专注于不同的内容领域，因为你需要拥有长期积累的专业知识才能正确写作。
So we have one person looking after certain product lines, another person would be focusing on behind different product lines.
因此，我们有一个人负责某些产品线，另一个人则专注于不同产品线的后面。
And very recently we've set out a team for different types of content because content isn't just written article, it's also video, it's also education.
最近，我们成立了一个负责不同类型内容的团队，因为内容不仅仅是书面文章，它也是视频，也是教育。
There's a lot of different types of content that we want to tap into.
我们想要利用很多不同类型的内容。
So now there's a team that is focused on those new mediums for us.
所以现在有一个团队专注于我们的这些新媒体。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
So how many people total full-time that run this operation?
那么总共有多少人全职负责这项业务呢？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Right now the team is about eight people total.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：目前团队总共约有八人。
Lenny: And it's like, I don't know if it's exactly 50% of it, something like half of your growth essentially is coming from this team?
Lenny：我不知道这是否正好是 50%，你的增长的一半本质上是来自这个团队？
Lenny: Is there anything else you found that it's really important or effective for thinking about making SEO work?
Lenny：您是否发现其他任何事情对于考虑使 SEO 发挥作用真正重要或有效？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: The biggest mistake people make is SEO is one of those things that, you can try and automate it, you can do a lot of things that save you time, but it never stops being time-consuming.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：人们犯的最大错误是SEO是其中之一，你可以尝试自动化它，你可以做很多事情来节省你的时间，但它永远不会停止耗时。
And to do it well, it is going to be time-consuming.
而要做到这一点，就需要花费时间。
So oftentimes people just get over it or they think it's below them to be going over and doing keyword research and doing all of those things one by one.
因此，人们常常会克服它，或者他们认为回顾并进行关键字研究并一一完成所有这些事情是低于他们的。
And that's oftentimes where people lose out is they try to cut corners.
人们往往会因为试图走捷径而遭受损失。
And when you cut corners, you just don't create a good quality resource.
当你走捷径时，你就无法创造出优质的资源。
That's what it comes down to.
归根结底就是这样。
It's like, is your resource good quality?
就像，你的资源质量好吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So when you try to just be like, I want to rank and cut all those corners, your content is not going to be great.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以，当你试图表现得像，我想排名并削减所有这些角落时，你的内容不会很好。
Nobody's going to want to read it.
没有人会愿意读它。
And your program is not going to go anywhere.
而且你的程序不会去任何地方。
So I think it's one of those things that people as they become more senior think it's below them.
所以我认为，当人们变得更高级时，他们会认为这是低于他们的事情之一。
And I think that's the biggest mistake.
我认为这是最大的错误。
Lenny: It's interesting, and that's exactly the same advice for writing a newsletter, the thing I do.
莱尼：这很有趣，这和我写时事通讯的建议完全一样。
Where if a newsletter isn't working, it usually means the content isn't valuable enough to people.
如果时事通讯不起作用，通常意味着内容对人们来说没有足够的价值。
It's such a clear meritocracy of, if it's useful, people will read it, subscribe, share.
这是一种明显的精英主义，如果有用，人们就会阅读、订阅、分享。
And if they're not, they won't subscribe.
如果他们不这样做，他们就不会订阅。
And then Google basically figures that out based on people's behavior.
然后谷歌基本上会根据人们的行为来计算出这一点。
Lenny: To give people a sense of the operation, how many articles are you putting out a month, a day, a week, whatever you can share there?
Lenny：为了让人们了解运作情况，你一个月、一天、一周发布了多少篇文章，无论你能在那里分享什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: We used to put out about 10 articles a week, that's net new.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们过去每周发布大约 10 篇文章，这是全新的。
Whereas now we are doing more of five new articles and five article updates.
而现在我们正在做更多的五篇新文章和五篇文章更新。
Because the type of content we write, regulations change, things change all the time, so we need to make sure that even if something was published two years ago, it's up-to-date.
因为我们编写的内容类型、法规在变化，事情一直在变化，所以我们需要确保即使某些内容是两年前发布的，它也是最新的。
So we have a team that is responsible for continuously fact checking.
因此，我们有一个团队负责持续进行事实检查。
So we do about five article updates and five net new articles written.
所以我们做了大约五篇文章更新和五篇净新文章。
And of course we do it across many different languages.
当然，我们在许多不同的语言中都这样做。
So what started off as English only operations is now in other languages as well.
因此，最初仅提供英语服务，现在也提供其他语言服务。
So there's no shortage of work to go around.
所以并不缺少工作要做。
Lenny: Something that I go back and forth on a bit is, if SEO is something every company should be doing and will work for them?
Lenny：我反复思考的一个问题是，如果 SEO 是每个公司都应该做的事情并且会为他们工作吗？
And in my experience, there's certain products that are really good for SEO, especially if there's user generated content or there's just a bunch of data like say Yelp or Glassdoor, where they can generate tons of pages in all these different ways.
根据我的经验，有些产品确实对 SEO 很有好处，特别是如果有用户生成的内容，或者只有一堆数据，比如 Yelp 或 Glassdoor，它们可以通过所有这些不同的方式生成大量页面。
Do you have an opinion on what sort of business and company is best suited for SEO?
您对哪种业务和公司最适合 SEO 有什么看法吗？
Or is your feeling everyone should probably be doing SEO in some form?
或者您觉得每个人都应该以某种形式进行 SEO？
And even if it's not a huge part of your growth strategy, it'll help.
即使它不是您增长战略的重要组成部分，它也会有所帮助。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I don't think everybody should be doing SEO.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我不认为每个人都应该做 SEO。
I think if you are in a space where people are looking for a solution, you should be doing SEO.
我认为如果你身处一个人们正在寻找解决方案的领域，你应该做搜索引擎优化。
But if you are a direct to consumer company selling people lipstick, which I'm a huge buyer of, you probably shouldn't invest in SEO all that much because people don't go to Google for that.
但如果你是一家直接向消费者销售口红的公司（我是口红的大买家），你可能不应该在搜索引擎优化上投入那么多，因为人们不会为此而去谷歌。
They go to Instagram, they go to influencers.
他们会去 Instagram、去寻找有影响力的人。
And even if someone types in the best lipstick of 2023, chances of your website ranking, because you're not a third party objective comparing to other people, is very low.
即使有人输入 2023 年最好的口红，您的网站排名的机会也非常低，因为与其他人相比，您不是第三方目标。
So it really depends on the solution.
所以这实际上取决于解决方案。
But if you are in a space which most B2B products tend to be, that you're solving an active problem very specifically, then I would say SEO is a good idea.
但是，如果您处于大多数 B2B 产品往往所处的领域，并且您正在非常具体地解决活跃问题，那么我会说 SEO 是一个好主意。
If you're a consumer good, maybe a little bit less effort should be put towards it.
如果你是消费品，也许应该少花点精力。
Lenny: Makes a lot of sense.
莱尼：很有道理。
Going back to the early days, you were hired as head of growth at Deel, there's a lot of things you could do.
回到早期，你被聘为 Deel 的增长主管，你可以做很多事情。
I'm curious how you decided where to prioritize your resources and what to do in the early days?
我很好奇你是如何决定在早期优先考虑资源的位置以及做什么的？
Versus what you started doing down the road and what you could almost not worry about early on?
与您接下来开始做的事情以及您早期几乎不用担心的事情相比？
What have you learned about that early prioritization exercise?
您从早期优先排序练习中学到了什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：是的。
So I would say early days, it's very important to just go back to the basics, build the skeleton before you put on the makeup.
所以我想说，早期，回到基础知识，在化妆之前构建骨架是非常重要的。
So the first question I would ask is, do you have a website?
所以我要问的第一个问题是，你们有网站吗？
Is it fast?
快吗？
Do the search engine knows that it exists?
搜索引擎知道它的存在吗？
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
The next step would be, can people find it?
下一步是，人们能找到它吗？
If they can't find it, you need to write content to make sure that people can find it.
如果他们找不到它，您需要编写内容以确保人们可以找到它。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Only after all of those questions are answered, should you then consider, do I have money?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：只有在所有这些问题得到解答之后，你才应该考虑，我有钱吗？
Can I put it behind some paid ads to make sure people come to my website?
我可以将其放在一些付费广告后面以确保人们访问我的网站吗？
So going step-by-step.
就这样一步一步来吧。
But you can't run a successful paid ads program if you have a website that's loading in four plus seconds.
但是，如果您的网站加载时间超过四秒，那么您就无法成功运行付费广告计划。
So really going back to the basics and starting from a good experience at the core.
因此，真正回到基础，从核心的良好体验开始。
And then expanding step-by-step from there is how I would suggest everybody starts.
然后从那里逐步扩展，这就是我建议每个人开始的方式。
And that's what I would do if I was to get hired all over again.
如果我再次被录用的话，这就是我会做的事情。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
So what are some of the steps?
那么有哪些步骤呢？
So step one is, do you have a website?
所以第一步是，你有网站吗？
Step two is make sure the website performs and people can actually have a good time when they're experiencing it.
第二步是确保网站正常运行，并且人们在体验网站时实际上可以享受到愉快的时光。
I imagine part of it is also, do people understand what you do, like tweaking maybe the pitch and the
我想其中一部分也是，人们是否理解你所做的事情，比如调整音调和
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes, exactly.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，完全正确。
And speaking of the pitch, our copy team does an amazing job at this.
说到宣传，我们的文案团队在这方面做得非常出色。
In the B2B world, it's very easy to come up with statements that could so easily be applied to another business and it would work just as well on their website.
在 B2B 世界中，很容易提出可以轻松应用于其他企业的声明，并且在他们的网站上也同样有效。
And it sounds good and you and your team feel really good about it.
听起来不错，您和您的团队对此感觉非常好。
But then if your one-liner can also work for another business, please don't let that be your one-liner.
但如果你的俏皮话也可以为另一家企业工作，请不要让它成为你的俏皮话。
Make it so that people actually understand what you do.
让人们真正理解你所做的事情。
Because right now there's a lot of statements out there like, 'we do the complex things so you can focus on what you do best', what does that mean?
因为现在有很多说法，比如“我们做复杂的事情，这样你就可以专注于你最擅长的事情”，这是什么意思？
And you can give that to 90% of the B2B businesses out there and it would apply to them, which means it's not good enough.
你可以将这一点提供给 90% 的 B2B 企业，这也适用于他们，这意味着它还不够好。
Lenny: Is there anything that you remember you changed in those early days in terms of the website or the positioning or anything along those lines that was a big improvement?
莱尼：您记得早期在网站、定位或类似方面进行了哪些重大改进吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Our website was hard coded, so the first thing we did with the help of the dev team was to move it to a platform that it was easy for me to access and edit, so that we could continuously A/B test things.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们的网站是硬编码的，所以我们在开发团队的帮助下做的第一件事就是将其移动到一个我可以轻松访问和编辑的平台，以便我们可以不断地进行 A/B 测试。
And outside of that, we worked really hard on testing a lot of value propositions to explain to people exactly what we do, explain problem first, solution first, and time savings, cost savings, putting a lot of those against each other and rapidly A/B testing.
除此之外，我们非常努力地测试了很多价值主张，以便向人们准确解释我们所做的事情，首先解释问题，首先解决方案，节省时间，节省成本，将很多这些相互对立并进行快速 A/B 测试。
Lenny: Once you got past that phase, where maybe you started doing some paid ads and other things, where did you find you could invest more resources?
莱尼：一旦你度过了这个阶段，也许你开始做一些付费广告和其他事情，你发现你可以在哪里投入更多资源？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Once we covered the basics of your big four or five ad platforms, we started looking into the long tail places.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：一旦我们了解了四大或五家广告平台的基础知识，我们就开始研究长尾地方。
So those are the platforms that individually never contribute a significant enough chunk for you to individually care about it.
因此，这些平台永远不会单独贡献足够大的块让您单独关心它。
But if you add them up, it diversifies your lead flow such that it ends up being about 30% of your overall lead flow that's coming in.
但如果你把它们加起来，它就会使你的潜在客户流量多样化，最终占到总潜在客户流量的 30% 左右。
Those could be things like review sites or much smaller outlets that could also run ads, newsletter ads, podcast ads, all of those things.
这些可能是评论网站或更小的网站，也可以投放广告、时事通讯广告、播客广告等等。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: When you run an individual podcast ad, yeah, you're probably not going to get 2000 customers from one podcast.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：当您投放单个播客广告时，是的，您可能不会从一个播客中获得 2000 名客户。
But you run 10 of those and then it starts adding up.
但你运行了 10 个，然后它就开始累加。
So really long tail is where we focused on.
所以真正的长尾才是我们关注的重点。
And we started going very niche with websites that have maybe 50,000, a hundred thousand visitors a month, which isn't all that much when you're thinking about your paid ad strategy.
我们开始针对每月可能有 50,000、10 万访问者的网站进行定位，当您考虑付费广告策略时，这并不算多。
But all of those places add up and they're oftentimes overlooked because they're not as easy, you have to take the time to set up from scratch to run it on everything.
但所有这些地方加起来，它们经常被忽视，因为它们并不那么容易，您必须花时间从头开始设置才能在所有内容上运行它。
Our paid ads team, they spent just as much time running Facebook and Google ads as they do running those third party, much smaller platform ads.
我们的付费广告团队，他们花在运行 Facebook 和 Google 广告上的时间与运行那些规模小得多的第三方平台广告的时间一样多。
It takes the same effort, but you need to have a diversified source of your leads.
这需要同样的努力，但您需要拥有多元化的潜在客户来源。
Lenny: Huge fan of podcast ads over here, and maybe this would be a good time to cue the mid-roll ad, maybe, I don't know, it happens.
莱尼：这里是播客广告的超级粉丝，也许这是提示中贴片广告的好时机，也许，我不知道，它会发生。
Lenny: Here we go.
莱尼：我们开始吧。
Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.
今天的节目由 AssemblyAI 为您带来。
If you're looking to build AI powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.
如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。
What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top tier research labs.
我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问顶级研究实验室的最新人工智能突破。
Product teams and startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken and lots more.
产品团队、初创公司和企业正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、查明何时说出敏感内容等等。
Lenny: All of AssemblyAI's models, which are accessed through their API, are production ready.
Lenny：AssemblyAI 的所有模型（可通过其 API 访问）都已做好生产准备。
So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.
我认识的许多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 进行音频用例构建的最快方法。
Now is the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription plus valuable insights to your customers, just like Spotify, CallRail and Writer do for theirs.
现在是时候看看 AssemblyAI 了，它可以轻松地为您的客户提供最高精度的转录和有价值的见解，就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 Writer 为他们的客户所做的那样。
Visit assemblyai.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no-code playground.
请访问 assemblyai.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用无代码游乐场测试他们的模型。
That's assemblyai.com/lenny.
这是 assemblyai.com/lenny。
Lenny: And welcome back.
莱尼：欢迎回来。
Speaking of podcast ads, something that I find is with that sort of advertising, there's a direct response component of like, we will drive leads as running an ad like this, and there's also a awareness, brand building component.
说到播客广告，我发现这类广告有一个直接响应的组成部分，我们将通过投放这样的广告来吸引潜在客户，还有一个意识、品牌建设组成部分。
I know you're not a big fan of awareness campaigns and marketing campaigns, especially early on, and so I'd love to get your perspective on why that is and how you think about that sort of investment?
我知道您不太热衷于宣传活动和营销活动，尤其是在早期，所以我很想听听您对为什么会这样以及您如何看待此类投资的看法？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I'm not a huge fan of early awareness campaigns for B2B businesses specifically.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我不太热衷于针对 B2B 企业的早期宣传活动。
So if you are a consumer goods founder, you can skip this part.
所以如果你是消费品创始人，你可以跳过这一部分。
But the reason I don't like awareness early on is because to do a proper awareness campaign, it takes time.
但我不喜欢早期的意识的原因是因为要进行适当的意识活动需要时间。
You need to have teams that are doing the strategy, doing the creative work, and they don't always hit.
你需要有团队来制定战略、进行创造性工作，但他们并不总是能成功。
You don't know if they're always going to resonate or not.
你不知道它们是否总是会引起共鸣。
And then you look back, and you've worked on this thing for a whole month and it hasn't resonated and you've wasted a full month.
然后你回头看，你在这件事上工作了整整一个月，但它没有引起共鸣，你浪费了整整一个月。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Because B2B businesses uniquely are started because there's a very real need and there's a lot of people that are ready to convert, first tap into the bottom of the funnel, and then go out and start speaking to the masses.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：因为 B2B 业务的独特启动是因为有非常真实的需求，并且有很多人准备好进行转换，首先进入漏斗的底部，然后出去开始向大众讲话。
But I promise you it'll probably take you six to eight months minimum to tap into that bottom of the funnel of people that are ready to convert today before you have to start doing awareness ads out there.
但我向你保证，在你必须开始做认知广告之前，你可能至少需要六到八个月的时间才能进入今天准备转化的漏斗底部。
That's not to say never do awareness ads, but it's oftentimes the shiny, cool thing that you want to do and it just ends up being a waste of time early on.
这并不是说永远不要做认知广告，但它通常是你想做的闪亮、酷的事情，但它最终只是在早期浪费时间。
Because people don't really even understand what you're doing, you haven't really even figured out what's the messaging that resonates, but you've done this creative campaign and people are like, "This looks cool, but I'm just going to go ahead and continue looking for a solution for my problem."
因为人们甚至不真正理解你在做什么，你甚至还没有真正弄清楚什么是能引起共鸣的信息，但你已经完成了这个创意活动，人们会说，“这看起来很酷，但我只是要继续寻找解决我的问题的方法。”
Lenny: Is there an example of a marketing campaign or an awareness campaign that comes to mind that you thought was like, "Okay, this is ...
莱尼：有没有一个营销活动或意识活动的例子让你想到，“好吧，这是......
if you do it this way, maybe it's worth doing"?
如果你这样做，也许值得这样做”？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I've seen Notion do a great job with their out-of-home ads.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我发现 Notion 的户外广告做得非常出色。
They didn't do it early on, they started doing it much later in their journey by the time when everybody that was working in tech knew what it was, and it was really to drive home the message continuously rather than to introduce themselves to the world.
他们很早就没有这样做，他们在他们的旅程中很晚才开始这样做，当时每个从事科技工作的人都知道这是什么，这实际上是为了不断地传达信息，而不是向世界介绍自己。
So by then when you saw that layout on a billboard, it made sense, you're like, "Oh, I know what they're talking about."
所以到那时，当你在广告牌上看到这种布局时，你就会觉得这是有道理的，“哦，我知道他们在说什么。”
Lenny: So what is it about Notion that you think was great, it was timing and then also the actual ad itself you thought was great?
Lenny：那么，您认为 Notion 很棒的是什么？是时机，还有您认为很棒的实际广告本身？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, the ads that I'm recalling right now were showcasing their product interface.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，我现在回想起的广告正在展示他们的产品界面。
So they needed enough time, and this is my obviously hypothesis, if someone from Notion wants to jump in and say that wasn't the reason why we did this, go ahead, but I think they needed enough time for people to get familiar with the interface.
所以他们需要足够的时间，这显然是我的假设，如果来自 Notion 的人想跳出来说这不是我们这样做的原因，那就继续吧，但我认为他们需要足够的时间让人们熟悉界面。
Because Notion has a very specific interface that when you see it, you recognize it, it's not like any other product.
因为 Notion 有一个非常具体的界面，当你看到它时，你就会认出它，它与任何其他产品不同。
So unless people built that awareness and recognition, doing an out-of-home ad with that layout wouldn't have made much sense because just with that layout they were able to communicate what product they're talking about.
因此，除非人们建立了这种意识和认可度，否则用这种布局制作户外广告就没有多大意义，因为仅通过这种布局，他们就能够传达他们正在谈论的产品。
If they did that day one, people would be like, "What is this thing that I'm looking at?"
如果他们第一天就这么做了，人们会说，“我正在看的这个东西是什么？”
Lenny: So we've been working through all the ways that Deel has grown, we've talked about SEO, community, you mentioned partnerships.
Lenny：所以我们一直在研究 Deel 发展的所有方式，我们讨论了 SEO、社区，以及你提到的合作伙伴关系。
Is there anything interesting there to mention around just what partnerships have done?
关于合作伙伴关系所做的事情，有什么有趣的事情值得一提吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, I would say it is very important to know who you should partner with.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，我想说知道应该与谁合作非常重要。
So there's two groups of partners.
所以有两组合作伙伴。
People oftentimes end up partnering with any company that has a shared audience.
人们通常最终会与任何拥有共同受众的公司合作。
Decent place to start.
不错的起点。
But just because you share an audience doesn't mean your audience goes to your partner for guidance when they have this problem.
但仅仅因为你们有共同的受众并不意味着您的受众在遇到此问题时会向您的合作伙伴寻求指导。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So in our case, venture capital partners was a huge one because when you get money from a new VC, they ask, they're like, "Okay, thank you for giving us this money, now we want to expand our team with the money you gave us.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以在我们的例子中，风险投资合作伙伴是一个巨大的合作伙伴，因为当你从新的风险投资那里获得资金时，他们会问，他们会说，“好吧，谢谢你给我们这笔钱，现在我们想用你给我们的钱来扩大我们的团队。
What are your other portfolio companies using?
您的其他投资组合公司正在使用什么？
What is a platform that you trust that you would recommend?" So people go to their VCs for that kind of question.
您认为值得推荐的平台是什么？”所以人们会向风险投资家询问此类问题。
But there might be another tech company out there that is tapping into the exact audience that we are, but people never go to them to ask that question.
但可能还有另一家科技公司正在利用我们的确切受众，但人们从来不会去找他们问这个问题。
So our partnership with them will likely not work just as well.
因此，我们与他们的合作关系可能不会那么有效。
So it's important to not only recognize the importance of an audience overlap as well as whether or not those people are seen as a trusted resource for the solution you are putting out there.
因此，重要的是不仅要认识到受众重叠的重要性，还要认识到这些人是否被视为您所推出的解决方案的可信资源。
Lenny: I really love this idea you keep coming back to, which is where are people asking this question that you can help them answer.
莱尼：我真的很喜欢你不断提到的这个想法，那就是人们在哪里问这个问题，你可以帮助他们回答。
And to make that even more concrete for people, what are some other examples maybe of questions people ask that Deel can help them with?
为了让人们更具体地了解这一点，还有哪些其他例子可以说明人们提出的问题，迪尔可以帮助他们解决？
So that it could help people think about, okay, maybe our product can help them answer these other sorts of questions
这样它可以帮助人们思考，好吧，也许我们的产品可以帮助他们回答其他类型的问题
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Since the early days, and it continues to happen, compliance is a huge question that gets asked.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：从早期开始，合规性一直是人们提出的一个巨大问题，而且这种情况仍在继续。
So when you are an HR leader or a finance leader or a legal leader in a company that works let's say in America, but you want to hire someone in another country, you don't know what you don't know.
因此，当您是一家在美国运营的公司的人力资源领导者、财务领导者或法律领导者，但您想在另一个国家雇用某人时，您不知道自己不知道什么。
So it's very important to have people that know what they're talking about in context of your country of origin as well as the country that you're trying to hire from.
因此，让人们知道他们在你的原籍国以及你想要招聘的国家的背景下所谈论的内容非常重要。
So compliance has always been a huge part of what we did and what we've always answered for people.
因此，合规一直是我们所做的事情以及我们一直为人们解答的重要组成部分。
That's why we have in-house experts that answer those questions, that constantly provide updates if the answer to that question has changed over time, which regulations constantly change.
这就是为什么我们有内部专家来回答这些问题，如果问题的答案随着时间的推移而变化（法规不断变化），他们就会不断提供更新。
An answer we provided a week ago may change, and you need to be very proactive in communicating that.
我们一周前提供的答案可能会发生变化，您需要非常主动地进行沟通。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Taxes is another one, especially in the space that we're in, payroll, hiring.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：税收是另一个问题，尤其是在我们所处的薪资、招聘领域。
Taxes change from country to country.
税收因国家而异。
You need to know when you need to pay what taxes, when you need to not pay them, and what types of work people do.
您需要知道何时需要缴纳哪些税款，何时不需要缴纳税款，以及人们从事哪些类型的工作。
So those are some of the types of questions that get asked.
这些是被问到的一些问题类型。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So for us, they're very nitty-gritty and use case specific.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以对我们来说，它们非常具体且特定于用例。
The taxes you need to pay for someone who is an engineer that's a full-time employee might be very different than who is a designer who is a contractor.
您需要为全职工程师的工程师缴纳的税款可能与承包商的设计师非常不同。
So those are the kinds of specifics that we get into with people.
这些就是我们与人接触的具体细节。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
So it's like, how do I pay taxes for an engineer I'm hiring in Turkey?
就像，我如何为我在土耳其雇用的工程师纳税？
And then you give them, "Here's the answer," and then it's like, "If you just want us to take care of it for you, then go check out Deel."
然后你给他们，“这就是答案”，然后就像是，“如果你只是想让我们为你处理这件事，那就去看看迪尔。”
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Exactly.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：没错。
Rarely the question is what's the best payroll solution?
很少有人问什么是最好的薪资解决方案？
It's like, okay, that's good to make sure what you're leaning towards isn't shit and that other people agree with you.
就像，好吧，确保你所倾向的不是垃圾并且其他人同意你的观点是件好事。
But ultimately it was like you need the best payroll solution because you need to make sure that things aren't going to go wrong.
但最终，您需要最好的薪资解决方案，因为您需要确保事情不会出错。
Lenny: Speaking of answering questions in content, something that you told me is that you wrote a blog post that the IRS ended up linking to as the definitive answer to a question.
莱尼：说到回答内容中的问题，你告诉我你写了一篇博客文章，美国国税局最终将其链接到作为问题的明确答案。
And I don't think this was at Deel, but can you share that story?
我不认为这是在迪尔，但你能分享这个故事吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes, actually it was at my previous role.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，实际上是我之前的角色。
And the person who wrote that article is today at Deel.
写那篇文章的人现在在迪尔。
So he came over to join us there too.
所以他也过来和我们一起去那里。
But yes, it was right around when Covid happened and the US government rolled out the PPP program.
但是，是的，正是在新冠疫情发生、美国政府推出 PPP 计划的时候。
And there was a lot of questions about, do I qualify?
还有很多问题是，我有资格吗？
If I qualify, how do I apply for this?
如果我符合资格，我该如何申请？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And at the time the company that I was working for had a lot of customers that were like, "What do I do?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：当时我工作的公司有很多客户，他们会问：“我该怎么办？
I need to gain access to this, but I don't know what to do." So the team there took the time to truly understand how the system works, whether you qualify, what to do.
我需要访问这个，但我不知道该怎么做。”因此，那里的团队花时间真正了解系统是如何工作的，您是否符合资格，该怎么做。
And created this resource for our own customers because we just wanted to help them.
并为我们自己的客户创建了这个资源，因为我们只是想帮助他们。
And then it ended up being such a good resource that it was linked from the IRS's website being like, "If you have questions, check out this article," which was a great moment of pride.
然后它最终成为一个如此好的资源，以至于它从美国国税局的网站上链接出来，就像“如果你有疑问，请查看这篇文章”，这是一个伟大的自豪时刻。
And it just went to show that when you do your best to answer questions and other people don't have the time to do it, no matter who it is, they're going to send people back your way.
这只是表明，当你尽力回答问题而其他人没有时间这样做时，无论是谁，他们都会把人送回你的地方。
And it was at the time, it happened to be a big moment of growth.
而那时，恰巧是一个成长的重要时刻。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: It was a very unfortunate instance, we wish we never had to write that, that it never happened.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：这是一个非常不幸的例子，我们希望我们永远不必写这个，它从未发生过。
But yeah, that was the story around IRS linking to the company's resource.
但是，是的，这就是关于国税局与公司资源相关联的故事。
Lenny: That's the ultimate sign of the question is answered and you're done with it, the IRS decides to link to it.
莱尼：这是问题得到解答的最终标志，你已经完成了它，国税局决定链接到它。
So you're saying that was actually a big driver of growth, IRS traffic.
所以你是说国税局的流量实际上是增长的一大推动力。
I'm curious how many people actually go read that?
我很好奇有多少人真正去读过这篇文章？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So that was huge for that short duration of a few week time when people were trying to apply for PPP.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：因此，在人们尝试申请 PPP 的短短几周时间内，这是巨大的。
And then it died out, as did PPP.
然后它就消失了，PPP 也是如此。
Lenny: Makes sense.
莱尼：有道理。
One last question around paid, and then I want to move on to a different topic.
最后一个问题是关于付费的，然后我想转向另一个主题。
Is there anything you've learned about what it takes to be successful at paid growth from your experience at Deel?
从您在 Deel 的经历中，您是否了解到如何才能成功实现带薪增长？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, so a few things.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，有几件事。
Our paid team spends a lot of time on both the messaging aspect of things as well as the optimization.
我们的付费团队在消息传递和优化方面花费了大量时间。
So optimization is the technical way in which you set your bids, make sure that you don't go over budget, whether or not you can afford that.
因此，优化是您设置出价的技术方式，确保您不会超出预算，无论您是否负担得起。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And then messaging is making sure that if someone sees your ad, whether it's on Instagram, Twitter, Google, that it makes sense for them.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：消息传递是确保如果有人看到你的广告，无论是在 Instagram、Twitter、Google 上，这对他们来说都是有意义的。
So creative fatigue is a real thing.
所以创意疲劳是真实存在的。
When you put an ad out there that works for three weeks, people get tired of seeing that, you need to constantly update that.
当你投放一个有效三周的广告时，人们会厌倦看到它，你需要不断更新它。
So our paid team is actually updating the ads we put out there on a monthly basis with the exception of a few Google ads, which need to be straight to the point.
因此，我们的付费团队实际上每月都会更新我们在那里发布的广告，但少数 Google 广告除外，这些广告需要开门见山。
So staying ahead of creative fatigue.
因此，要避免创意疲劳。
Making sure that your messaging also keeps up with your product, even if the ad is working really well, you need to make sure that as your product has evolved, so has the messaging alongside that.
确保您的消息传递也与您的产品保持同步，即使广告效果非常好，您也需要确保随着产品的发展，消息传递也随之发展。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And also recognizing, not just looking at the amount of leads that you generated from a campaign, but how many of them actually became a client, and how much money did you actually make from those clients to understand things around payback.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：还要认识到，不仅要关注您从营销活动中产生的潜在客户数量，还要关注其中有多少人实际上成为了客户，以及您实际上从这些客户那里赚了多少钱，以了解有关回报的事情。
Because oftentimes marketers just tend to think about, "Oh, this is a great lead channel and I get so many leads from it." But then you ask that question to sales teams and they're like, "Yeah, I'm busy, but none of these are converting." So it's really important to look at not just the volume that you bring in, but what is the journey of that volume with your business one year out.
因为营销人员常常会想，“哦，这是一个很棒的潜在客户渠道，我从中获得了很多潜在客户。”但当你向销售团队提出这个问题时，他们会说：“是的，我很忙，但这些都没有带来转化。”因此，不仅要关注您带来的销量，还要关注一年后该销量对您的业务的影响，这一点非常重要。
How much money do you actually make from them to be able to properly decide how much can I spend to win this customer?
你实际上从他们那里赚了多少钱才能正确决定我可以花多少钱来赢得这个客户？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And the way that we've done it is we've worked with our data team to set up a dashboard that tracks that in real time.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们的做法是与数据团队合作建立一个实时跟踪的仪表板。
We know an average customer that comes from a Facebook ad, at what rate do they converge from a lead to a qualified opportunity to a closed on.?
我们知道来自 Facebook 广告的普通客户，他们从潜在客户聚合到合格机会再到关闭的速度是多少？
And then on average, how much money do we make from that customer one year out.
然后平均来说，一年后我们从该客户那里赚了多少钱。
So that we can decide, is this a worthy channel for us, do we not want to invest there or are we reaching that peak and we can't continue to invest there.
这样我们就可以决定，这对我们来说是一个值得的渠道吗？我们是否不想在那里投资，或者我们是否达到了峰值，我们不能继续在那里投资。
Lenny: Something that I should mention as we talk through this is we're talking about all these ways to grow the product, but at the core is a great product that people actually find valuable and want to keep using.
Lenny：当我们谈论这个问题时，我应该提到的是，我们正在谈论所有这些发展产品的方法，但核心是人们实际上发现有价值并希望继续使用的伟大产品。
And maybe a question there is just how that plays into this whole growth strategy, actually making the product something people want versus all these acquisition channels?
也许有一个问题是，这如何融入整个增长战略，实际上使产品成为人们想要的产品，而不是所有这些收购渠道？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Acquisition channels just straight up don't work if you have a product that doesn't live up to the expectation.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：如果你的产品达不到预期，那么直接的获取渠道是行不通的。
I think I personally have been very spoiled and lucky because from the day I joined Deel, the product was top-notch.
我想我个人是非常被宠坏和幸运的，因为从我加入Deel的那天起，这个产品就是一流的。
As I was joining an early stage company, I joined right after series A, I was expecting certain things to be duct taped in the back, it happens.
当我加入一家早期阶段的公司时，我在 A 轮融资后立即加入，我预计某些事情会在后面用管道胶带粘住，它发生了。
And I was like, "Oh no, the engineers and the product team are, if they say a product can do something, it can do that and more."
我当时想，“哦，不，工程师和产品团队是，如果他们说一个产品可以做某事，那么它就可以做到这一点，甚至更多。”
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So early days of my team pitching Deel was people were like, "I don't think you guys can do all of that.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：在我的团队向 Deel 投球的早期，人们会说，“我认为你们不能做到这一切。
I don't believe you." And it was almost like we had to tamper down our messaging so that people would believe us.
我不相信你。”这几乎就像我们必须篡改我们的信息，这样人们才会相信我们。
But you can be the best marketer in the world, if when people come to your product, even if your sales team does a good job at convincing them to become a customer, because you can do that, if the product doesn't live up to the expectations, especially in the B2B world where people aren't going to put up with crappy products, they're going to leave.
但是，如果当人们来到你的产品时，即使你的销售团队在说服他们成为客户方面做得很好，你也可以成为世界上最好的营销人员，因为你可以做到这一点，如果产品达不到预期，特别是在 B2B 世界中，人们不会忍受蹩脚的产品，他们就会离开。
That's going to get out and people are going to know it's not a worthy product.
这件事将会传出去，人们就会知道它不是一个有价值的产品。
So that really sits at the core of everything that we do.
因此，这确实是我们所做的一切的核心。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I think it's very easy to take it for granted when you're at a company that has an awesome product, you're like, "It is like this all the time." But one of the things I would encourage anybody looking to join a young company is, ask them what their team breakdown looks like.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我认为，当你在一家拥有出色产品的公司工作时，你很容易认为这是理所当然的，你会想，“一直都是这样。”但我鼓励任何想要加入一家年轻公司的人的一件事是，询问他们的团队结构是什么样的。
When I joined Deel, most of the team was product and engineers.
当我加入 Deel 时，团队的大部分成员都是产品和工程师。
So that told me that the core of this business was going to be solid.
这告诉我，这项业务的核心将会是坚实的。
And then we built out those supporting things like marketing, like sales, like data to surround the product.
然后我们建立了一些支持性的东西，比如营销、销售、围绕产品的数据。
But if you are talking to an early stage company that's a B2B product and they have six salespeople and two engineers, their product probably isn't going to be great for that much longer.
但如果您正在与一家 B2B 产品的早期公司交谈，他们有六名销售人员和两名工程师，那么他们的产品可能不会持续太久。
Lenny: Especially if it's an outsourced dev shop doing the product, they're like, "Oh, they'll take care of the product, we'll just sell it." Something else that I think is important to talk about is Covid was an important element of your growth.
莱尼：特别是如果是外包开发商店在做产品，他们会说，“哦，他们会照顾产品，我们就卖掉它。”我认为值得谈论的另一件事是，新冠疫情是你成长的一个重要因素。
And so I guess, one, is that true?
所以我想，第一，这是真的吗？
And then two, just what did you lean into and lean out of in terms of growth during Covid to help people discover Deel when they needed it most, which is basically people going remote in a lot of ways in a lot of companies?
第二个问题，在新冠疫情期间，为了帮助人们在最需要的时候发现 Deel（基本上是很多公司的人们以多种方式进行远程办公），在增长方面您采取了哪些措施？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So Covid, actually a lot of people think Deel was started as a response to the pandemic, we actually got started before the pandemic and then the pandemic happened.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以 Covid，实际上很多人认为 Deel 是为了应对大流行而开始的，我们实际上是在大流行之前就开始了，然后大流行发生了。
So as sad as it was, it did force people into a pilot program of the vision that we had for the world.
尽管令人悲伤，但它确实迫使人们参与我们对世界的愿景的试点计划。
It forced people to work remotely, whether that means you're working remotely from someone who lives a block away from you or you are working remotely from someone in Germany.
它迫使人们远程工作，无论这意味着你是与住在一个街区之外的人远程工作，还是与德国的某人远程工作。
So we did benefit from the fact that everybody was at least forced to test out this hypothesis of, does it work to not be in the same room as the people that you're working with?
因此，我们确实受益于这样一个事实：每个人至少都被迫检验这个假设：不与你一起工作的人在同一个房间是否有效？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And one of the questions that we were getting early on as the Covid was coming to an end was, "Are you worried, Covid is coming to an end, that people aren't going to use Deel anymore?" And our response to that has always been, we are not a remote work platform, we're a global work platform.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：随着新冠疫情即将结束，我们早期提出的问题之一是，“你是否担心，新冠疫情即将结束，人们不会再使用 Deel 了？”我们对此的回应一直是，我们不是远程工作平台，我们是全球工作平台。
So a lot of these businesses have gone back into offices.
因此，许多此类企业已重新回到办公室。
We have a lot of customers that asked people to go back to their offices, but now they have offices in Germany and in Canada and in the US and in France.
我们有很多客户要求人们返回他们的办公室，但现在他们在德国、加拿大、美国和法国都设有办事处。
So we were never a remote work company, we were just a global work company.
因此，我们从来都不是一家远程工作公司，我们只是一家全球工作公司。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And remote work, because there was a lot of news coverage happening around it, we just became synonymous with that.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：还有远程工作，因为有很多围绕它的新闻报道，我们就成了远程工作的代名词。
So I do think early on we did benefit from being able to provide that solution.
所以我确实认为，我们很早就确实从提供该解决方案中受益。
And a lot of people saw the reality of like, "Hey, I work just as well with this person as I did when I was in an office with them.
很多人看到的现实是，“嘿，我和这个人一起工作就像我和他们在办公室一样。
Well, the best person that I'm looking for, the job may not be within my region, so let me go ahead and hire them regardless of where they are." People got comfortable with that and more and more companies started moving in that direction.
好吧，我要找的最优秀的人，这份工作可能不在我的地区，所以让我继续雇用他们，不管他们在哪里。”人们对此感到满意，越来越多的公司开始朝这个方向发展。
Lenny: And is there anything that ended up being really important in terms of helping Deel grow through that?
莱尼：有什么事情最终对于帮助迪尔成长来说是真正重要的吗？
Like a channel that's just like, "Let's go big on this channel because it seems to be working really well"?
就像一个频道一样，“让我们在这个频道上做大做强，因为它看起来运作得很好”？
Or is it just word of mouth basically and people are just like, "Oh shit, I really need to solve this problem, my hair's on fire, what's out there?
或者这基本上只是口口相传，人们就像是，“哦，该死，我真的需要解决这个问题，我的头发着火了，外面有什么？
Let me go find an answer"?
让我去寻找答案”？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I wouldn't say it was word of mouth, maybe very, very early on it was word of mouth, but within the first few months of our operation that stopped being true.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我不会说这是口碑，也许在非常非常早期它就是口碑，但在我们运营的最初几个月内，这不再是事实。
Or at least the word of mouth stopped being a smaller percentage of the way in which people discover us.
或者至少，口碑在人们发现我们的方式中所占的比例不再那么小了。
But it's always that people needed a payroll solution, they needed a way to hire independent contractors overseas, and we just were the answer to that.
但人们总是需要一个薪资解决方案，他们需要一种在海外雇用独立承包商的方法，而我们正是解决这个问题的答案。
So we consistently put ourselves in front of them and said, "Hey, if you're trying to do this, or if you're already doing it and you're not doing it legally, we can help you do that legally."
因此，我们始终站在他们面前说：“嘿，如果您正在尝试这样做，或者您已经在这样做但不合法，我们可以帮助您合法地这样做。”
Lenny: I want to chat about team building, something that I've heard you're exceptional at.
莱尼：我想谈谈团队建设，我听说你在这方面很擅长。
And my first question is, early on when you were building the team, the growth team specifically, at Deel, what skills did you find were most important to look for?
我的第一个问题是，早期当你在 Deel 建立团队，特别是增长团队时，你发现最需要寻找的技能是什么？
And what skills and experiences did you find wasn't as important early on that you could sacrifice and wait until later to get?
您发现哪些技能和经验在早期并不那么重要，您可以牺牲并等到以后才能获得？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Early on one of the first questions I would ask people is, what are the KPIs that you're willing to commit to?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：早期我会问人们的第一个问题是，您愿意承诺的 KPI 是什么？
So if someone's only willing to commit to lead numbers, that's not good enough.
因此，如果有人只愿意承诺领先数字，那还不够。
They need to be able to commit to closed one revenue KPRs to really show that they care about the business's bottom line.
他们需要能够承诺完成一项收入 KPR，以真正表明他们关心业务的底线。
So it was those people that were willing to commit to the full funnel.
因此，正是那些愿意致力于整个渠道的人。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And also oftentimes people tend to hire from the big companies that they want to become like because the brand name is appealing.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：人们往往倾向于从他们想成为的大公司招聘员工，因为品牌名称很有吸引力。
But if you're a team of 35 people, and you're trying to hire the director of whatever from a huge company, you need to ask the question of, when did this person join that huge company?
但如果你是一个 35 人的团队，并且你想从一家大公司聘请任何主管，你需要问这样的问题：这个人什么时候加入那家大公司的？
Did they join when the company was already 5,000 people and from day one they had all the resources at their disposal?
他们是在公司已经有 5,000 名员工并且从第一天起就拥有所有可用资源的情况下加入的吗？
Or were they actually one of the earlier employees who helped that growth?
或者他们实际上是帮助这种增长的早期员工之一？
Because oftentimes the mistake I see people make is they'll hire someone from an amazing company that have accomplished amazing things, but they're not used to operating with 10% of the resources that they had.
因为我经常看到人们犯的错误是，他们会从一家出色的公司雇用一个已经完成了惊人事情的人，但他们不习惯用他们拥有的资源的 10% 来运作。
So they're not willing to get down and do the dirty work.
所以他们不愿意埋头干脏活。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And at Deel we have this concept called 'little hands'.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：在 Deel，我们有一个叫做“小手”的概念。
I think it's loosely translated from French, someone can correct me on that.
我认为它是从法语翻译过来的，有人可以纠正我。
But it basically means that no matter who you are, where you sit within the organization, you need to be willing to get into the little things and do the nitty-gritty work and not shy away from it.
但这基本上意味着，无论你是谁，无论你在组织中处于什么位置，你都需要愿意参与小事并做具体的工作，而不是回避它。
And it's very important too, whoever we hire at any level, it's like, "Are you willing to do the tiniest of jobs?" And if the answer is yes, that's great.
这也非常重要，无论我们雇用任何级别的人，这就像，“你愿意做最微小的工作吗？”如果答案是肯定的，那就太好了。
And some people are like, "I would build a team for that." And of course in the future, maybe you should, but that shouldn't be your first answer.
有些人会说，“我会为此建立一个团队。”当然，将来，也许您应该这样做，但这不应该是您的第一个答案。
Your first answer should be, "Yes, of course I'll do that." And if someone's not excited about that, then they're not a good fit for at least a company at our stage right now.
你的第一个回答应该是：“是的，我当然会这么做。”如果有人对此不感兴趣，那么他们至少不适合目前阶段的公司。
Lenny: That is an amazing expression, little hands.
莱尼：这真是一个令人惊奇的表情，小手。
You talked about how you check that people are willing to commit to revenue goals.
您谈到了如何检查人们是否愿意致力于收入目标。
Is that in the interview or is that ...
是采访里说的还是……
how do you ...
你怎么...
because won't everyone just say, "Yeah, yeah, I can commit to anything you need me to commit to, I'm going to go make this work"?
因为不是每个人都会说，“是的，是的，我可以承诺任何你需要我承诺的事情，我会去完成这项工作”？
How do you get a sense if they're the kind of person that would do that?
如果他们是那种会这么做的人，你如何判断？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: It happens within the interview process.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：这发生在面试过程中。
So one ways to find out is what are the KPIs that they have committed to in the past in their roles.
因此，一种方法是了解他们过去在自己的角色中承诺的 KPI 是什么。
So if they've never committed to a revenue goal or a bottom funnel goal and they're saying they're willing to commit to it, that's probably not correct.
因此，如果他们从未承诺过收入目标或底部漏斗目标，但他们说愿意承诺，那么这可能是不正确的。
And I always say, if they haven't, I say, "What are the KPIs that you have today and what are the KPIs that you think you should have?" Because sometimes they're just not given those, but they still think they should have been given the more bottom funnel.
我总是说，如果他们没有，我会说，“您今天拥有的 KPI 是什么，您认为应该拥有的 KPI 是什么？”因为有时他们只是没有得到这些，但他们仍然认为他们应该得到更底部的漏斗。
So that's something that I would look for in the interview process.
这就是我在面试过程中寻找的东西。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And a really good way to also test for that is, this is more on the case study process, but asking someone to come up with a strategy with $0, with $10,000 and maybe a hundred thousand dollars to see if they're going to be able to scale with you.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：对此进行测试的一个非常好的方法是，这更多地是在案例研究过程中，但要求某人提出一个 0 美元、10,000 美元甚至 10 万美元的策略，看看他们是否能够与你一起扩展。
And to see how are they thinking about with different levels of spend and what are they willing to commit to at different levels of spend.
并了解他们如何考虑不同的支出水平以及他们愿意在不同的支出水平上做出哪些承诺。
Because if someone's throwing up their hands and saying, "At $0, I can only do social media monitoring, we're not going to get much because that's what makes sense." Well, you probably know that they're not going to be comfortable committing to those bottom of funnel metrics until you give them all the resources that they need.
因为如果有人举手说：“在 0 美元的情况下，我只能进行社交媒体监控，我们不会得到太多，因为这才是有意义的。”好吧，您可能知道，除非您向他们提供他们所需的所有资源，否则他们不会放心地致力于漏斗底部的指标。
Lenny: And it sounds like the way you goal teams within Deel also is revenue, growth teams basically have revenue goals.
莱尼：听起来，Deel 内部团队的目标也是收入，增长团队基本上都有收入目标。
It's not, like you said, leads or traffic or anything like that.
正如您所说，这不是潜在客户或流量或类似的东西。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：是的。
That's why we're called growth instead of marketing, we care about the revenue growth.
这就是为什么我们被称为增长而不是营销，我们关心的是收入增长。
And of course we track leads and SQLs.
当然，我们还会跟踪销售线索和 SQL。
Those are leading indicators to know whether or not we're going to hit the ultimate number that we all care about.
这些是了解我们是否会达到我们都关心的最终数字的领先指标。
But at the end of the day, that's not what we consider success.
但归根结底，这并不是我们所认为的成功。
Lenny: In terms of team structure, how you thought about structuring the early growth team, what did that look like and what was the reporting lines and buckets of investment?
Lenny：就团队结构而言，您是如何考虑构建早期增长团队的？它是什么样的？报告范围和投资范围是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, so very early on, we always seek to bring in one leader to manage a part of the organization and then let them grow their teams.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，所以很早就，我们总是寻求引入一位领导者来管理组织的一部分，然后让他们发展自己的团队。
We don't love the idea of hiring people based off of a hypothesis that something is going to work.
我们不喜欢基于某些事情会起作用的假设来雇用员工的想法。
That's a really good way to have to do layoffs because the plans you thought were going to work didn't work.
这确实是一个不得不裁员的好方法，因为你认为可行的计划并没有奏效。
So we always hired one person, prove out a theory, and then let them grow their team.
所以我们总是雇佣一个人，证明一个理论，然后让他们发展自己的团队。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So the first hire we made to the team was actually a product marketing person.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以我们为团队聘请的第一位员工实际上是产品营销人员。
To this day they lead our product marketing team, and they were the ones who sit between the product team and the go-to-market teams and really set the messaging.
直到今天，他们领导着我们的产品营销团队，他们是介于产品团队和市场推广团队之间并真正设定信息传递的人。
And quickly we realized this person needs more help in setting the messaging, the tone.
我们很快意识到这个人在设定信息和基调方面需要更多帮助。
So then the second person we hired was a very talented copywriter.
所以我们聘请的第二个人是一位非常有才华的文案撰稿人。
And that person today leads our creative teams.
如今，这个人领导着我们的创意团队。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And then the third person we actually hired onto the growth team was a data analyst because the sentiment was we're not willing to spend a dollar if we don't know where that money's going and what it's doing for us.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：然后，我们实际聘请到增长团队的第三个人是一名数据分析师，因为我们的情绪是，如果我们不知道这笔钱的去向以及它为我们做什么，我们就不愿意花一美元。
Which a lot of people would assume that's a very early hire for ...
很多人会认为这是一个非常早期的招聘......
data is too early to hire as number three.
聘请 data 作为第三名还为时过早。
But I still think that we did the right thing there.
但我仍然认为我们在那里做了正确的事情。
Now we have a whole data team, but back then we didn't.
现在我们有一个完整的数据团队，但当时我们还没有。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So those were the three teams that we started with on top.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：这就是我们一开始选择的三支团队。
And then the content person was already at Deel by the time that I joined, so that was the person I mentioned that was early employee.
当我加入时，内容人员已经在 Deel 了，所以这就是我提到的早期员工。
So that's how we originally set it.
这就是我们最初的设定。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Now the teams have changed.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：现在团队已经改变了。
So now we have a different structure, slightly different structure, which is we have regional teams and functional teams.
所以现在我们有一个不同的结构，略有不同的结构，那就是我们有区域团队和职能团队。
The functional teams are basically subject matter experts.
职能团队基本上都是主题专家。
They're good at what they do and we don't care where they are based in the world.
他们擅长自己所做的事情，我们不在乎他们位于世界哪个地方。
So those are teams like product marketing, content, community, events, paid advertisements, brand.
这些是产品营销、内容、社区、活动、付费广告、品牌等团队。
If we are looking for the best graphic designer in the world, I don't care where they are, they can sit wherever in the world.
如果我们正在寻找世界上最好的平面设计师，我不在乎他们在哪里，他们可以坐在世界上的任何地方。
They are basically functional teams.
他们基本上是职能团队。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And then we have regional teams.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：然后我们有区域团队。
Because we are selling into a lot of different regions, we need to make sure that we have local expertise as well.
因为我们的产品销往许多不同的地区，所以我们需要确保我们也拥有当地的专业知识。
So we have marketing managers for different key regions for us that then work with our functional teams to bring the strategy to life.
因此，我们为不同的关键区域配备了营销经理，然后他们与我们的职能团队合作，将战略付诸实践。
So that's how we've set it.
这就是我们的设置方式。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I've seen businesses who build out a regional team that has their own paid ads team and their own content team.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我见过一些企业建立了一个区域团队，该团队拥有自己的付费广告团队和自己的内容团队。
But what we have found is when you take people away from their group of expertise, so if you take a paid ads person, and if you have a team of paid ads people and you separate those five people and give them to different regions, instead of letting them sit together and be a tight team, the best practice is learning and the leveling up of the skills doesn't happen as fast as they would if all of the technical roles are sitting together.
但我们发现，当你把人们从他们的专业团队中抽离出来时，如果你找了一个付费广告人员，如果你有一个付费广告人员团队，你把这五个人分开，分配到不同的区域，而不是让他们坐在一起，成为一个紧密的团队，最好的做法就是学习，而技能的提升不会像所有技术角色都坐在一起时那么快。
So we are continuing down the road of functional and regional setup.
因此，我们将继续沿着职能和区域设置的道路前进。
Lenny: So say someone in Turkey wants to run paid ads, they convince the paid growth team to invest in resources in growing Turkey?
莱尼：也就是说，土耳其有人想要投放付费广告，他们说服付费增长团队投资资源来发展土耳其？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Exactly.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：没错。
So they would work with our central paid ads team to say I would like to run paid ads in Turkey, this is the audience I want to go after.
因此，他们会与我们的中央付费广告团队合作，说我想在土耳其投放付费广告，这就是我想要追求的受众。
And then they work together to execute on that strategy.
然后他们共同努力执行该战略。
Lenny: How does that team decide who's going to get their time, is there a rough approach to that?
莱尼：该团队如何决定谁将得到他们的时间，有一个粗略的方法吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So it depends on the total addressable market in a region, what are the opportunities we're seeing, what's the competitive landscape like.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：因此，这取决于一个地区的总目标市场、我们看到的机会是什么、竞争格局如何。
So chances are if a market is what we consider to be tier one, and it's a place that we have seen good growth, we will invest our resources into it.
因此，如果一个市场是我们认为的一级市场，并且我们看到了良好的增长，我们就会将资源投入其中。
And then along the way we learn and we decide if we're going to double down or pull back a little bit.
然后，在这个过程中，我们不断学习，并决定是要加倍努力还是要退缩一点。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I want to chat a bit about culture, culture at Deel.
我想聊聊迪尔的文化、文化。
We had Jeff from Ramp on, and their culture is described by one word, velocity.
我们邀请了来自 Ramp 的 Jeff，他们的文化可以用一个词来形容：速度。
Also one of you being the fastest growing business of all time, I'm curious how you'd contrast your culture and broadly how you think about culture at a startup and how you help create the culture at Deel?
你们也是有史以来增长最快的企业之一，我很好奇你会如何对比你的文化，以及你如何看待初创公司的文化，以及你如何帮助创建 Deel 的文化？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, so I would say culture is made up of two components.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，所以我想说文化由两个组成部分组成。
One is, what do you bring to the company as a team member, and what does the company give back to you?
一是，作为团队成员，你给公司带来了什么，公司又回馈你什么？
So what we expect the team members to bring to us is, our version of velocity is something that we call 'Deel speed', is that we want to make sure that we act with urgency.
因此，我们期望团队成员带给我们的是，我们的速度版本被我们称为“Deel speed”，我们希望确保我们采取紧急行动。
It doesn't matter how big the team has grown, we want to act with urgency on behalf of our customers.
无论团队规模有多大，我们都希望代表客户紧急采取行动。
If a customer has a problem, they're not going to wait two weeks to get an answer for that.
如果客户遇到问题，他们不会等待两周才能得到答案。
They're going to get that answer within 24 hours.
他们将在 24 小时内得到答复。
If we need to build out a product because many customers are asking for it, that product is going to get built in one-tenth the time that any of our competitors will likely build it in.
如果我们因为许多客户需要而需要构建一款产品，那么该产品的构建时间将是我们任何竞争对手构建它的时间的十分之一。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So 'Deel speed' is very, very important for us.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以“Deel speed”对我们来说非常非常重要。
And that's something we expect from our team members who are committing to it.
这也是我们对致力于此的团队成员的期望。
To say, what's the quickest way I can solve this problem properly?
话说，我能以最快的方式正确解决这个问题吗？
And to repeatedly push themselves to act with urgency.
并不断督促自己采取紧急行动。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: We also care that we remain positive.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们也关心我们保持积极的态度。
We have default optimism because we are in a new space, so if someone's going to come into Deel and they're going to be pessimistic and they're like, "I don't think that's going to work for X, Y, Z reasons," they're going to just slow things down.
我们有默认的乐观主义，因为我们处于一个新的空间，所以如果有人要进入迪尔，他们会变得悲观，他们会说，“我认为这不会因为 X、Y、Z 的原因而起作用”，他们只会放慢速度。
We need people to ask the question of, "I think it's going to work for these four reasons, now let's see what are the risks associated with it and let's seek to solve those risks." That's again something we expect from our team members.
我们需要人们提出这样的问题：“我认为这会因为这四个原因而发挥作用，现在让我们看看与之相关的风险是什么，并寻求解决这些风险。”这也是我们对团队成员的期望。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And then the last one, well, not the last one, but one of the third important ones is, fully giving a shit about your customer.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：最后一个，好吧，不是最后一个，但第三个重要的一个是，完全不在乎你的客户。
At the end of the day, the product that we have, we are dealing with humans, we're dealing with their livelihood, the way they get paid, we're dealing with the way companies hire.
归根结底，我们拥有的产品，我们正在与人类打交道，我们正在处理他们的生计，他们获得报酬的方式，我们正在处理公司招聘的方式。
It's so incredibly personal if someone doesn't get their paycheck on time or if someone gets into legal trouble because their contract wasn't set up the proper way.
如果有人没有按时拿到工资，或者有人因为合同没有以正确的方式制定而陷入法律麻烦，那么这都是非常私人的事情。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So recognizing that it's not a software and a platform that we're trying to make it the best, but it's like, no, it's a business trying to pay a human so they can live their lives and the business can continue growing.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：因此，我们认识到这不是一个软件和平台，我们试图使其成为最好的，但它就像是，不，这是一家企业试图向人们支付费用，以便他们能够过上自己的生活，并且企业能够继续增长。
So that care is something that we need people to bring to the table.
因此，我们需要人们将这种关怀带到桌面上。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Now in return of those things coming, what we give back as a company is, outside of obviously your pay, your benefits package, et cetera, is we offer people the flexibility to choose how and when they do their job, they get to decide on where they work from, what hours they work.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：现在，作为对这些即将到来的事情的回报，我们作为一家公司所给予的回报是，除了你的工资、福利待遇等等之外，我们为人们提供了灵活性，让他们可以选择工作方式和时间，他们可以决定自己的工作地点和工作时间。
So we basically give people all the freedom to set up their life how they want to as long as they come to the table giving us what they need.
因此，我们基本上给予人们一切自由，让他们按照自己想要的方式生活，只要他们来到谈判桌上，为我们提供他们所需要的东西。
So I would say we do have an intense culture, and that's expected, we share that openly with people.
所以我想说我们确实有一种强烈的文化，这是预料之中的，我们与人们公开分享这种文化。
But at the end of the day, that's also what sets us apart.
但归根结底，这也是我们与众不同的原因。
Lenny: I love this 'Deel speed'.
莱尼：我喜欢这种“迪尔速度”。
Are these core values basically within Deel, these are values that you come back to?
这些核心价值观基本上是迪尔内部的吗？这些是你会回归的价值观吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yes, exactly.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，完全正确。
And these are values that we publicly share as well.
这些也是我们公开分享的价值观。
Lenny: How early in the lifecycle of the company did you all come up with these values?
Lenny：你们是在公司生命周期的早期阶段就提出了这些价值观的？
That's something that a lot of startups think about is, when should we actually crystallize these values?
许多初创公司都在思考，我们什么时候应该真正具体化这些价值观？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So we came up with them, I believe it was about a year in, but we didn't sit around the table and say, "What should we call our values?" 'Deel speed' was something that our CEO would tell people.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以我们想出了它们，我相信这是大约一年后的事，但我们并没有坐在桌子旁说，“我们应该如何称呼我们的价值观？”我们的首席执行官会告诉人们“速度”。
He'd be like, "Okay, I want you to do this, but I want you to do it at 'Deel speed'." And one of the early jokes was, let's have company swag that's Deel speedo and things like that.
他会说，“好吧，我希望你这样做，但我希望你以‘Deel speed’来做。”早期的笑话之一是，让我们拥有公司的赃物，比如 Deel speedo 之类的东西。
It's just like, it was already used so frequently with people that we were just like, "Okay, we keep saying this, let's also define what it actually is for us and set it in stone and share it with people." So we did go through that exercise probably about a year in into the company existing, but the culture happened well before we established that.
就像，它已经被人们如此频繁地使用，以至于我们就像，“好吧，我们一直这么说，让我们也定义它对我们来说到底是什么，并将其固定下来并与人们分享。”因此，我们确实在公司成立大约一年后就进行了这项工作，但这种文化早在我们建立之前就已经形成了。
Lenny: Reminds me, at Airbnb, there was a team that came up with the core values, I think it was four years in probably, and there were six of them.
Lenny：让我想起，在 Airbnb，有一个团队提出了核心价值观，我想大概花了四年的时间，总共有六年。
And then a few years later they realized two of them aren't actually true, they were aspirational.
几年后，他们意识到其中两个实际上并不是真的，他们只是有抱负。
And there was this recognition that values should be who you are not who you hope to be because it just doesn't click.
人们认识到，价值观应该是你是谁，而不是你希望成为的人，因为它只是不合时宜。
And so they actually cut those values and they ended up having just four values.
因此，他们实际上削减了这些值，最终只剩下四个值。
And maybe one day they'll bring them back.
也许有一天他们会把它们带回来。
And so I think that's a really good lesson is you want to see who you already are and then just represent them in a really interesting, creative way.
所以我认为这是一个很好的教训，你想看看你已经是谁，然后以一种非常有趣、有创意的方式代表他们。
Lenny: There's a version of, what did you call it, default optimism.
莱尼：有一个版本，你称之为默认乐观主义。
Airbnb's version of that was 'embrace the adventure', which is just like, this is going to be crazy, just go for it, embrace it, this is what it's going to be like.
Airbnb 的版本是“拥抱冒险”，这就像，这会很疯狂，就去追求它，拥抱它，这就是它的样子。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Exactly.
梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨：没错。
And try and see how can I solve this, how can this be done instead of why it won't work.
并尝试看看我该如何解决这个问题，如何做到这一点，而不是为什么它不起作用。
Lenny: Yeah, I love that.
莱尼：是的，我喜欢这个。
And this urgency piece comes up again and again in these interviews I'm doing.
在我正在进行的这些采访中，这个紧迫的问题一次又一次地出现。
What I think of is Frank Slootman, I think is his name, the founder of Snowflake, has this book called Amp It Up.
我想到的是Frank Slootman，我想是他的名字，Snowflake的创始人，有一本书叫Amp It Up。
All about just how they made Snowflake work.
关于他们如何让雪花发挥作用。
And something he comes back to is just you need to constantly have a sense of urgency because when you don't, people get bored and they actually end up liking their job less because it's just like, I don't really know what I'm doing, things are moving along.
他谈到的是，你需要不断地有紧迫感，因为当你不这样做时，人们会感到无聊，他们实际上最终会不太喜欢自己的工作，因为这就像，我真的不知道我在做什么，事情正在进展。
And there's actually a lot of value in moving fast.
快速行动实际上有很多价值。
Jeff talked about this as just like, you have less burnout when people feel like things are getting done and out the door.
杰夫谈到这一点时说，当人们感觉事情已经完成并且可以出门时，你的倦怠就会减少。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, it's incredibly fulfilling.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，这令人难以置信的满足。
I look back and sometimes things when, for example, when the SVB was going through the issues they were going through, the entire team had to work on a Sunday to communicate with our customers of like, "No, we're good, don't worry about it." But I remember that Sunday I had to miss out on a theater I was so excited to see, but it just felt like, oh my God, we're in this, it was like a war room, we're doing it.
我回想起来，有时候，例如，当 SVB 正在解决他们正在经历的问题时，整个团队必须在周日工作，与我们的客户进行沟通，比如“不，我们很好，别担心。”但我记得周日我不得不错过了一个我很高兴看到的剧院，但感觉就像，天哪，我们在这，它就像一个作战室，我们正在做这件事。
And that felt good.
这感觉很好。
I didn't necessarily show up on Monday feeling already burned out, but it was more like, yes, I felt alive.
我不一定会在周一出现时感到精疲力尽，但更像是，是的，我感觉自己还活着。
And I think the right people will feel that way.
我认为合适的人会有这种感觉。
Lenny: Yeah, and as long as it's not constantly for years just endless late nights and weekends.
莱尼：是的，只要不是长年累月地熬夜和周末。
Lenny: I find that those end up being the most memorable, meaningful moments is when you're working really, really hard on something that you're excited about.
莱尼：我发现那些最终成为最令人难忘、最有意义的时刻是当你非常非常努力地做一些让你兴奋的事情时。
And it has to be something you're excited about and are proud of.
它必须是你感到兴奋和自豪的事情。
Lenny: Last question.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
I saw on Twitter, you shared this photo of your home office, and it was this incredible view out the window, and then you took a photo facing your desk and it was an ironing board.
我在推特上看到，你分享了这张你家庭办公室的照片，窗外的景色令人难以置信，然后你面向你的办公桌拍了一张照片，那是一块熨衣板。
And two questions there.
还有两个问题。
One is just how did that all happen?
一是这一切是如何发生的？
And then two, I think you mentioned somewhere that you didn't even meet a lot of your coworkers for a year and a half after joining Deel, it was very remote forward.
第二，我想你在某处提到过，在加入迪尔后一年半的时间里，你甚至没有见到很多同事，这是非常遥远的事情。
So, I'm curious also just how you made remote work work for you in that environment?
所以，我也很好奇你是如何在那种环境下让远程工作为你服务的？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Yeah, so I'll explain the ironing board first.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：是的，所以我先解释一下熨衣板。
So that was because I was actually visiting my family in Istanbul, and in the setup that we have, there's one desk.
那是因为我实际上是在伊斯坦布尔拜访我的家人，在我们的设置中，有一张桌子。
So my husband and I go rock, paper, scissors, and we'll see who gets the desk and who gets to come up with a secondary solution.
所以我和我丈夫就用石头、剪刀、布，看看谁能拿到桌子，谁能想出第二个解决方案。
And he won the desk, so I had to come up with a creative solution.
他赢得了办公桌，所以我必须想出一个创造性的解决方案。
And because the view behind me was stunning, of the Bosporus, every meeting I joined, people were like, "Wow, I love your view, this is amazing." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, you guys, I'm sitting on an ironing board right now." And to me that was both funny, and I wanted to do a reality check with people to be like, "Come on, this is not as glorious as it looks." But at the same time, it really in that moment I was like, "This is awesome, I work at Deel."
因为我身后博斯普鲁斯海峡的景色令人惊叹，所以我参加的每次会议，人们都会说，“哇，我喜欢你的景色，这太棒了。”我当时想，“哦，不，不，你们这些家伙，我现在正坐在熨衣板上。”对我来说，这很有趣，我想与人们进行现实检查，“来吧，这并不像看起来那么光荣。”但与此同时，在那一刻我真的觉得，“这太棒了，我在 Deel 工作。”
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Previously when I wanted to go visit my family in Istanbul, and I live in Canada, I would have to use my days off to go.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：以前，当我想去伊斯坦布尔探望家人时，我住在加拿大，我必须利用休息日去。
And for me it just meant a lot to be able to do my work regardless of where I am.
对我来说，无论我身在何处，都能完成我的工作意味着很多。
I had a full day of work and meetings and everything.
我有一整天的工作、会议和一切。
And my work just continued and I was also be able to be with my family.
我的工作继续进行，我也能够和家人在一起。
So it was a moment of Deel's promise coming true in a very real way in my life.
所以这是迪尔的承诺在我的生活中以非常真实的方式实现的时刻。
And I thought it was hilarious.
我觉得这很搞笑。
My dad thought it was so unprofessional that I shared that with the public then.
我父亲认为这太不专业，所以我当时与公众分享了这一点。
He hasn't fully wrapped his head around the startup world.
他还没有完全了解创业世界。
So it was just one of those moments of sharing that, yeah, work can be remote and it can be whatever you want it to be.
所以这只是分享的时刻之一，是的，工作可以是远程的，它可以是任何你想要的。
So that's the the story behind it.
这就是它背后的故事。
In this moment as we're recording this, I am in a proper home office with a desk and a back supported chair.
在我们记录这一点的那一刻，我在一个合适的家庭办公室里，有一张桌子和一把靠背椅子。
It changes all the time.
它一直在变化。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And in terms of, going back to your second question of, early days not meeting the team members.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：回到你的第二个问题，早期没有与团队成员见面。
As I said, I joined Deel in July, 2020, pandemic was at its peak, me being based in Canada, Canada had very strict restrictions of, you can't leave the country, we won't let you back in.
正如我所说，我于 2020 年 7 月加入 Deel，当时疫情正处于高峰期，我住在加拿大，加拿大有非常严格的限制，你不能离开这个国家，我们不会让你回来。
So I had to stay put.
所以我不得不留在原地。
And I worked for a year and a half at Deel before for the first time where I met our team members was at a conference in Lisbon.
我在 Deel 工作了一年半，第一次见到我们的团队成员是在里斯本的一次会议上。
And I showed up and it was this surreal moment because I've worked with them for a year and a half, we'd accomplished so much.
我出现了，那是一个超现实的时刻，因为我已经与他们合作了一年半，我们已经取得了很多成就。
Our revenue was already way past $50 million and I was seeing these people for the first time.
我们的收入已经远远超过 5000 万美元，我还是第一次见到这些人。
So that was very funny.
所以这很有趣。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: But if I look at the early days of Deel, there's a lot of little stories like that, where we forgot to create swag until we reached a billion dollars.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：但是如果我看看 Deel 的早期，就会发现有很多这样的小故事，我们忘记了创造赃物，直到我们达到 10 亿美元。
And it was actually when our photo was going to be on the NASDAQ and we wanted to take a team picture that we were like, "Guys, we need to have t-shirts.
事实上，当我们的照片即将在纳斯达克上市时，我们想要拍一张团队合影，我们当时就想：“伙计们，我们需要穿 T 恤。
Can someone please run to a store in New York and print our logo on something?" So a lot of those things just by the nature of being a pandemic business came a little bit later.
有人可以跑到纽约的一家商店把我们的标志印在什么东西上吗？”因此，由于大流行业务的本质，很多事情都是后来才出现的。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: But the thing that allowed I think for me in Deel to build the culture early on was, because we all work from home, we've been like that from day one.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：但我认为，让我在迪尔很早就建立文化的原因是，因为我们都在家工作，所以从第一天起我们就一直这样。
We have the option to go into WeWorks and co-working spaces if that's something that you choose.
如果您选择的话，我们可以选择进入 WeWorks 和联合办公空间。
But we all get to show up as our very authentic selves.
但我们都必须展现出最真实的自己。
So people have met my pets and my partner well before they would have if I was showing up to an office.
因此，人们早在我出现在办公室时就认识了我的宠物和我的伴侣。
So there's that sincerity that comes with being in someone's home that we really relied on early on.
因此，我们很早就真正依赖于在别人家中所带来的诚意。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And as a company, I never felt the pressure to show up in a certain way or dress up for meetings or anything.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：作为一家公司，我从未感受到以某种方式出现或盛装出席会议或其他任何事情的压力。
So just being able to show up as yourself, and whether you're an introverted person who never likes to turn on their camera or you're someone who's going to be like, "Here, meet my dog." That just naturally built a team culture and comradery well before we could be together in person.
所以只要能够展现出你自己，无论你是一个从不喜欢打开相机的内向的人，还是一个会说“来认识一下我的狗”的人。在我们亲自聚在一起之前，这很自然地建立了团队文化和同志情谊。
Lenny: Clearly it has worked out.
莱尼：显然已经成功了。
Meltem, is there anything else that you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Meltem，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: We had a really good conversation.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我们进行了一次非常愉快的交谈。
The one thing I would tell people is, most of growth, people assume is very difficult.
我要告诉人们的一件事是，人们认为大多数增长都是非常困难的。
I'm not necessarily saying it's easy, but it's relatively straightforward when you go back to the first principles of just figuring out where are the people at?
我不一定说这很容易，但当你回到弄清楚人们在哪里的首要原则时，它相对简单。
How can I add value?
我怎样才能增加价值？
As long as your product is there to actually bring them value.
只要你的产品能够真正为他们带来价值。
So I would say people should just recognize that it's much simpler than they think it is, it just takes a lot of discipline to execute on it, it's not rocket science.
所以我想说，人们应该认识到它比他们想象的要简单得多，只是需要大量的纪律来执行它，这不是火箭科学。
Lenny: Quite an empowering statement, I love it.
莱尼：这是一个充满力量的声明，我喜欢它。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: From the nonfiction world, How Will You Measure Your Life by Clay Christensen, that's one I recommend.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：来自非小说类世界，克莱·克里斯滕森（Clay Christensen）的《你将如何衡量你的生活》（How Will You Measure Your Life），这是我推荐的一本。
He takes the business learnings that he's had and applies it to your life.
他将他所学到的商业知识应用到你的生活中。
It's a very short and easy to get through book.
这是一本非常短且容易读完的书。
Outside of that, I constantly recommend fiction.
除此之外，我还不断推荐小说。
I think at one point it became uncool to read fiction that every moment you have needs to be productive and you need to learn something.
我认为在某一时刻，读小说变得不酷了，因为你的每一刻都需要富有成效，你需要学习一些东西。
I don't care what fiction it is you read, you can read Judy Blume for all I care, but just read fiction, be creative, do something with your brain other than reading nonfiction and learning things all the time.
我不在乎你读什么小说，我不在乎你可以读朱迪·布鲁姆，但只要读小说，要有创意，用你的大脑做一些事情，而不是阅读非小说和一直学习的东西。
Lenny: I've had to make that shift myself, and it's been great, but I still get drawn to nonfiction.
莱尼：我必须自己做出这种转变，这很棒，但我仍然被非小说类作品所吸引。
But good reminder.
但很好的提醒。
What are some favorite recent movie or TV shows you've loved?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目有哪些？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Favorite recent movie, I think along with everybody else, was Oppenheimer.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我想和其他人一样，最近最喜欢的电影是《奥本海默》。
I thought it was great.
我觉得这太棒了。
I do wish they explored a little bit more of why he was the person that drove everybody to excellence.
我确实希望他们能更多地探讨为什么他是推动每个人走向卓越的人。
But overall loved the movie.
但总的来说很喜欢这部电影。
Did not think I could sit through three hours without peeing, but I did.
我没想到我可以坐三个小时而不撒尿，但我做到了。
And favorite recent TV show was The Summer I Turned Pretty.
最近最喜欢的电视节目是《我变漂亮的夏天》。
I absolutely love it.
我非常喜欢它。
I don't care that it's actually designed for teenagers, I enjoyed every second of it.
我不在乎它实际上是为青少年设计的，我很享受它的每一秒。
Lenny: What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?
莱尼：当你面试应聘者时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: What would your siblings say about you?
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：你的兄弟姐妹会怎么评价你？
It's very telling.
这很能说明问题。
If they have siblings, if they don't, I will say, what will your parents say about you?
如果他们有兄弟姐妹，如果没有，我会说，你的父母会怎么评价你？
But it's very telling what you think other people think of you.
但这非常能说明你对别人对你的看法。
Lenny: What do you look for in their answer that gives you a sign that they're a good candidate or not?
莱尼：你在他们的回答中寻找什么来让你知道他们是否是一个好的候选人？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: I look for sincerity and self-awareness.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：我寻找真诚和自我意识。
Your siblings are never ...
你的兄弟姐妹从来都不是...
I mean, I love my sister, but she'll probably shit talk me a lot.
我的意思是，我爱我的妹妹，但她可能会经常跟我说废话。
And being aware of that is very important.
意识到这一点非常重要。
If someone was like, "My siblings will say I'm very organized and that I'm the one that brings our family together." That's probably a bullshit answer.
如果有人说，“我的兄弟姐妹会说我很有条理，是我让我们的家人团结在一起的。”这可能是一个废话答案。
But if they're like, "Oh yeah, they'll say these weird things about me," that shows a little bit of self-awareness and humbleness that I want to see in a person.
但如果他们说，“哦，是的，他们会说我的这些奇怪的事情”，这表明了我希望在一个人身上看到的一点自我意识和谦虚。
Lenny: What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?
Lenny：您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Oh, this is a dangerous one.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：哦，这是一个危险的事情。
So two, one was NuStrips, they're caffeine strips.
所以有两种，一种是 NuStrips，它们是咖啡因条。
I find caffeine pills and everything or when I drink coffee is like, accidentally I'll have 300 milligrams and then I'm buzzing.
我发现咖啡因药片和其他东西，或者当我喝咖啡时，我不小心喝了 300 毫克，然后我就嗡嗡作响。
But these are 50 milligrams each, so it's very easy to stop yourself.
但这些都是 50 毫克，所以很容易阻止自己。
And they don't taste bad.
而且它们的味道也不差。
So those I like for when I just need a little boost.
所以当我只需要一点动力时我喜欢这些。
Lenny: So they're just strips that you put in your mouth and they give you caffeine?
莱尼：所以它们只是你放进嘴里的条带，它们会给你咖啡因？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And you put it on your tongue and then it also doesn't give you the jitters and it's just 50 milligrams, which is a very mild cup of coffee.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：你把它放在舌头上，它也不会让你感到紧张，而且它的含量只有 50 毫克，是一杯非常温和的咖啡。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: And the second one is, I recently was gifted a personalized library stamp, which I love.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：第二个是，我最近收到了一张个性化的图书馆邮票，我很喜欢。
Because I love to give books away, so I stamp them with my library stamp.
因为我喜欢赠送书籍，所以我在它们上盖上我的图书馆印章。
And I like to think that one day in a secondhand bookshop I'm going to run into it.
我喜欢想象有一天我会在一家二手书店遇到它。
Lenny: That's amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
There's a camp at Burning Man that's a library, and you can borrow books and you have to return it in a year, the next year when you come back to Burning Man.
火人节有一个营地，是一个图书馆，你可以借书，一年后必须归还，第二年你回到火人节的时候。
Which is amazing.
这太棒了。
And then there's a guy that has a megaphone, he is just like, "A book has been returned." Makes a whole scene about it.
然后有一个人拿着扩音器，他就像是，“一本书被归还了。”创造了一个关于它的完整场景。
What is a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with other people, either at work or in life?
无论是在工作还是生活中，您经常回顾或与其他人分享的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: The world is run by insecure overachievers.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：这个世界是由缺乏安全感的优秀者统治的。
I used to think my insecurity was a downfall and I would just hide it and try to pretend it's not there.
我曾经认为我的不安全感是一种失败，我只会隐藏它并试图假装它不存在。
And then someone that I really look up to told that to.
然后我非常尊敬的一个人告诉了我这件事。
I'm like, "Okay, so I'm not the only one." And it's just, I do think world is run by a bunch of people that have something to prove for a good reason or not, but it's better to embrace it than to pretend you're all confident and you're just doing this because you're brilliant.
我想，“好吧，所以我不是唯一一个。”只是，我确实认为世界是由一群人管理的，他们有理由证明一些东西，无论有没有理由，但拥抱它比假装你很自信并且你这样做只是因为你很聪明更好。
Lenny: Oh my God, so good.
莱尼：天哪，太好了。
Final question, what is your favorite Canadian food?
最后一个问题，你最喜欢的加拿大食物是什么？
You live in Canada and thus the question.
您住在加拿大，因此有这个问题。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Okay, it's not particularly food, but Caesars, they're basically Bloody Mary's with clam juice.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：好吧，这不是特别的食物，但是凯撒，它们基本上是带有蛤汁的血腥玛丽。
Lenny: Oh, Bloody Caesar, is that what they're called?
莱尼：哦，血腥凯撒，他们就是这么叫的吗？
Or just Caesar?
还是只有凯撒？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: But the American equivalent would be a Bloody Mary.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：但美国的同类产品是血腥玛丽。
It's so much better than a Bloody Mary.
它比血腥玛丽好得多。
It's not vegan.
这不是素食主义者。
And then the reason I qualify it as food is when you order it in Canada, it comes with pepperoni strips and pickled asparagus, and they'll shove a whole meal in there.
然后我将其定义为食物的原因是当你在加拿大订购它时，它配有意大利辣香肠条和腌芦笋，他们会把整顿饭塞进去。
And it's just amazing and something that America should definitely adapt too.
这真是太棒了，美国也绝对应该适应。
Lenny: I think I've had one, I think I prefer Bloody Marys, but a good pitch for the Caesars.
莱尼：我想我喝过一杯，我想我更喜欢血腥玛丽，但对凯撒来说是一个很好的选择。
Meltem, thank you so much for being here.
Meltem，非常感谢你来到这里。
We talked about growth strategy, team building, 'Deel speed', default optimism, so many things.
我们讨论了增长战略、团队建设、“德尔速度”、默认乐观主义等等。
Really appreciate you making the time.
真的很感谢您抽出时间。
Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?
最后两个问题，如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: So they can reach out to me on Twitter at MeltemK, I'm the fastest to respond there.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：所以他们可以在 MeltemK 的 Twitter 上联系我，我是那里回复速度最快的。
Please don't reach out to me on LinkedIn, I never respond there.
请不要在 LinkedIn 上联系我，我从不回复。
And the way readers can be useful to me is if they, one, we're always looking for feedback on Deel.
读者对我有用的方式是，如果他们，我们一直在寻找有关迪尔的反馈。
If you see something out there that you think could be better, let me know, and I'll make sure to communicate it to the team, whatever that may be.
如果您发现一些您认为可以更好的东西，请告诉我，我会确保将其传达给团队，无论是什么。
And also, if anybody has tips that they think I would benefit from or any good fiction book recommendations, I'm always open to them.
而且，如果有人有他们认为我会受益的提示或任何好的小说书推荐，我总是愿意向他们开放。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Meltem, thank you again so much for being here.
Meltem，再次非常感谢您来到这里。
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz: Thank you so much for having me.
Meltem Kuran Berkowitz：非常感谢您邀请我。
Lenny: Bye everyone.
莱尼：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。