Building high-performing teams | Melissa Tan (Webflow, Dropbox, Canva)

Melissa Tan: My aha moment of the value of first principles thinking was when I was at Dropbox.

Melissa Tan：当我在 Dropbox 工作时，我对第一原理思维的价值感到恍然大悟。

We would hire a ton of really smart people that had never done sales and had them do sales.

我们会雇佣大量从未做过销售的非常聪明的人，并让他们做销售。

There are a lot of disadvantages to that, but I do think it led to a ton of innovation.

这有很多缺点，但我确实认为它带来了大量的创新。

That's how we got our very innovative go-to market motions because a lot of those people then moved into different functions at the company.

这就是我们如何提出非常创新的进入市场动议的原因，因为其中很多人随后进入了公司的不同职能部门。

They had all this context on who the user was.

他们拥有关于用户是谁的所有背景信息。

They had talked to so many different users at that point.

当时他们已经与很多不同的用户进行了交谈。

If you take people that are just super smart, they've never done it before, one advantage of that is they can innovate because I think they come in with, I don't know anything.

如果你找一些非常聪明的人，他们以前从未这样做过，这样做的一个好处是他们可以创新，因为我认为他们进来时，我什么都不知道。

Let me just figure this out.

让我弄清楚这一点。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Melissa Tan.

今天我的嘉宾是梅丽莎·谭。

Melissa was the longtime head of growth for Dropbox's B2B business.

Melissa 长期担任 Dropbox B2B 业务的增长主管。

She's also their first growth product manager.

她也是他们的第一位增长产品经理。

Then she went on to do full-time advising for companies like Canva, Grammarly, Miro, and Ro, helping them with their growth strategy and helping them build their growth teams.

然后，她继续为 Canva、Grammarly、Miro 和 Ro 等公司提供全职咨询服务，帮助他们制定增长战略并帮助他们建立增长团队。

Lenny: For the past two and a half years, she's been leading growth at Webflow.

Lenny：在过去的两年半中，她一直引领 Webflow 的发展。

But hot off the presses as Melissa shares at the top of this podcast, she's going back to full-time advising life.

但正如梅丽莎在播客顶部分享的那样，她将重返全职咨询生活。

So if you're looking for help with go-to market plans, growth strategy, building your growth team, aligning your sales, marketing and growth efforts, she's about to become available, so definitely reach out.

因此，如果您正在寻求市场进入计划、增长战略、建立增长团队、协调销售、营销和增长工作方面的帮助，她即将为您提供帮助，所以一定要联系她。

In our conversation, we get deep into what it takes to build a high performing team and also how to build a high performing growth team, specifically.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了如何建立一支高绩效团队，以及如何建立一支高绩效成长团队。

Lenny: Melissa shares advice for becoming a leader that people will follow from company to company, how to best develop your people to become the best versions of themselves.

莱尼：梅丽莎分享了如何成为一个公司的领导者的建议，以及如何最好地培养你的员工，让他们成为最好的自己。

She talks about the most common ingredients of a high performing team and what she's learned from working with companies like Canva, Grammarly, Miro, Ro, Webflow and Dropbox.

她谈论了高绩效团队最常见的要素以及她从与 Canva、Grammarly、Miro、Ro、Webflow 和 Dropbox 等公司合作中学到的东西。

We also get into how to interview product managers and she shares her actual interview process, plus who your first growth hire should probably be, the most common mistakes people make when they first start to invest in growth and a real talk story of what Dropbox did right and what they did wrong in their shift to B2B.

我们还介绍了如何面试产品经理，她分享了她的实际面试流程，以及您的第一个增长员工可能应该是谁，人们第一次开始投资增长时最常犯的错误，以及 Dropbox 在向 B2B 转型过程中做对和做错的真实故事。

There are so many golden nuggets of lessons in this episode and I'm excited to bring it to you.

这一集有很多宝贵的教训，我很高兴能把它带给你们。

With that, I bring you Melissa Tan after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Melissa Tan。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 AssemblyAI 为您带来的。

If you're looking to build AI powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.

如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。

What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top tier research labs, product team that startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken and lots more.

我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问来自顶级研究实验室、产品团队的最新人工智能突破，初创公司和企业正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话通话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、精确定位何时说出敏感内容等等。

Lenny: All of AssemblyAI's models, which are accessed through their API are production ready.

Lenny：AssemblyAI 的所有模型（通过 API 访问）都已准备好投入生产。

So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.

我认识的许多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 进行音频用例构建的最快方法。

Now's the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription plus valuable insights to your customers.

现在是时候了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松为您的客户带来最高精度的转录和有价值的见解。

Just like Spotify, CallRail and writer do for theirs.

就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 writer 所做的那样。

Visit AssemblyAI.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no code playground.

请访问 AssemblyAI.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用他们的无代码游乐场测试他们的模型。

That's AssemblyAI.com/lenny.

这是 AssemblyAI.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel.

Lenny：这一集是由 Mixpanel 为您带来的。

Get deep insights into what your users are doing at every stage of the funnel at a fair price that scales as you grow.

以随着您的成长而扩展的合理价格，深入了解您的用户在渠道每个阶段的行为。

Mixpanel gives you quick answers about your users from awareness to acquisition through retention, and by capturing website activity, ad data, and multi-touch attribution right in Mixpanel, you can improve every aspect of the full user funnel.

Mixpanel 为您提供有关用户的快速答案，从认知到获取再到保留，并且通过在 Mixpanel 中捕获网站活动、广告数据和多点触控归因，您可以改进整个用户渠道的各个方面。

Powered by first party behavioral data instead of third party cookies, Mixpanel's built to be more powerful and easier to use than Google Analytics.

Mixpanel 由第一方行为数据而非第三方 cookie 提供支持，比 Google Analytics 更强大且更易于使用。

Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.

访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny，探索适合各种规模团队的计划并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。

And while you're at it, they're also hiring.

当你在做这件事的时候，他们也在招聘。

So check it out at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.

请访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny 进行查看。

Lenny: Melissa, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：梅丽莎，欢迎来到播客。

Melissa Tan: Thanks, Lenny.

梅丽莎·谭： 谢谢，莱尼。

It's great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I'm excited to have you on.

莱尼：我很高兴你能参加。

I hear there's a big development in your career that is going to be out by the time this podcast comes out where you're embarking on a new adventure.

我听说当这个播客发布时，你的职业生涯将会有一个巨大的发展，你将开始一段新的冒险。

I'd love to hear more about it and for folks to understand what you're doing next.

我很想听到更多相关信息，并希望人们了解您下一步要做什么。

Melissa Tan: Over the last couple years I've been at Webflow building out the growth team there.

Melissa Tan：过去几年我一直在 Webflow 建立增长团队。

I'm actually transitioning right now and I'm out right now and I'm going to go back into advising, which is something I was doing a lot of before Webflow working, having been fortunate enough to work with great companies like Canva, Grammarly, Miro, et cetera.

事实上，我现在正在转型，现在已经离开，我将重新回到咨询领域，这是我在 Webflow 工作之前经常做的事情，我很幸运能够与 Canva、Grammarly、Miro 等伟大的公司合作。

And so that's one of my biggest passions is working with earlier stage companies once they found product market fit and helping them scale growth.

因此，我最大的热情之一就是与处于早期阶段的公司合作，一旦他们发现产品适合市场并帮助他们扩大增长。

And I'll be going back into advising.

我会回去提供建议。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's a huge news because I, there's like a small number of people like Melissa that is available at certain times to work with and this is going to be this window and I just want people to understand what kinds of areas do you think you're going to focus on for folks that may need help and may want to reach out?

这是一个重大消息，因为像梅丽莎这样的少数人可以在某些时间与他们一起工作，这将是这个窗口，我只是想让人们了解您认为您将重点关注哪些领域，以帮助那些可能需要帮助并可能想要伸出援手的人？

Melissa Tan: I've worked with companies across many different stages, so even in the early stage as companies are thinking about their go-to market strategy.

Melissa Tan：我曾与许多不同阶段的公司合作过，所以即使在早期阶段，公司也在考虑他们的市场进入策略。

Previously at Dropbox, I worked across sales.

此前，我在 Dropbox 从事销售工作。

I also helped start their initial product growth and self-serve team for Dropbox business.

我还帮助他们启动了 Dropbox 业务的初始产品开发和自助服务团队。

I've also overseen pricing and packaging at Webflow.

我还负责监督 Webflow 的定价和包装。

So a lot of companies initially as they're thinking about their go-to market strategy, should they be product led?

因此，许多公司最初在考虑其进入市场策略时，是否应该以产品为主导？

Should they lean more into sales motion?

他们应该更多地关注销售活动吗？

What should the pricing and packaging look like?

定价和包装应该是什么样的？

I've worked with earlier stage companies and then also post product market fit as companies are building out growth and they want to make sure to optimize the funnel across activation, monetization, engagement retention.

我曾与早期阶段的公司合作过，然后随着公司的增长，他们也希望确保在激活、货币化、参与度保留方面优化漏斗，从而适应后期产品市场。

I've also advised and helped growth teams, so kind of across stages focus on growth and go-to market.

我还为增长团队提供建议和帮助，因此跨阶段专注于增长和进入市场。

Lenny: I guess while we're on it, what's the best way to reach out as people are listening to this and they're like, "Oh my God, I want to get some help on this stuff."

莱尼：我想当我们在做这件事时，当人们听到这个并且他们会说，“天哪，我想在这件事上获得一些帮助时，最好的联系方式是什么。”

Melissa Tan: Definitely LinkedIn is a good place.

Melissa Tan：LinkedIn 绝对是一个好地方。

I check my LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out there.

我查看了我的 LinkedIn，因此请随时与我们联系。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

So usually we got that covered at the end, but I think that was going to be helpful in case people were like, "Oh, I see what you can help us with." So building on that, I want to focus our conversation on two specific topics that I know that you're specially strong at.

所以通常我们会在最后解决这个问题，但我认为这会很有帮助，以防人们说，“哦，我知道你能帮助我们做什么。”因此，在此基础上，我想将我们的对话集中在两个我知道您特别擅长的特定主题上。

One is building high performance teams broadly, and then two is building high performance growth teams specifically.

一是广泛建设高绩效团队，二是专门建设高绩效成长团队。

How does that sound as a focus of our conversation?

这听起来如何成为我们谈话的焦点？

Melissa Tan: Yeah, let's do it.

梅丽莎·谭：是的，我们开始吧。

Two topics I'm very passionate about.

我非常热衷于两个主题。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Lenny: So before we get into it too deeply, I want to first talk about Dropbox.

Lenny：所以在我们深入讨论之前，我想先谈谈 Dropbox。

So you're at Dropbox for four-ish years, something like that, doing a lot of their growth work and it was in the middle of a lot of their growth spurts and things like that.

你在 Dropbox 工作了四年左右，做了很多他们的增长工作，并且正处于他们的许多增长井喷之类的事情之中。

And when I think Dropbox and growth, there's kind of this dichotomy I think about.

当我想到 Dropbox 和增长时，我会想到这种二分法。

On the one hand, there's just these incredible growth loops that work, this referral program, this crazy word of mouth.

一方面，正是这些令人难以置信的增长循环发挥了作用，这个推荐计划，这个疯狂的口碑。

There's just this explosive growth story of a product.

这就是一个产品爆炸性增长的故事。

Lenny: And then on the other hand, there's this B2B side that from an outsider just feels like that's something that didn't work for a long time.

Lenny：另一方面，B2B 方面从局外人看来，这在很长一段时间内都行不通。

And then Box came around and did that really well, and I think Dropbox has done better since then, but it feels like this combination of really successful growth and then maybe less successful.

然后 Box 出现并做得非常好，我认为 Dropbox 从那时起做得更好，但感觉就像是真正成功的增长和随后可能不太成功的结合。

So I'm curious, just looking back from your experience and from what you've heard, what do you think Dropbox did and what do you think they did wrong?

所以我很好奇，回顾一下你的经历和你所听到的，你认为 Dropbox 做了什么，你认为他们做错了什么？

And then just what are some learnings from that experience and watching Dropbox go through that?

那么，从这次经历以及观看 Dropbox 经历的过程中可以学到哪些教训呢？

Melissa Tan: Yeah, it's a great question.

Melissa Tan：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

And having been at Dropbox for close to five years, I did a lot of reflection while I was there.

在 Dropbox 工作了近五年，我在那里进行了很多反思。

So I was there from 2013 to 2017, around 200 people.

所以从 2013 年到 2017 年我在那里，大约有 200 人。

I think about a billion dollar valuation to essentially ...

我认为估值十亿美元基本上是......

I think when I left we were 1,500 people and we're valued at 10 billion at the IPO.

我想当我离开时我们有 1,500 名员工，IPO 时我们的估值为 100 亿美元。

I think the things that Dropbox got right, one of them was definitely hiring.

我认为 Dropbox 做对的事情之一就是招聘。

So when I think about 2013, Dropbox was actually known in the tech circles as a place that was very selective, very difficult to get into.

因此，当我回想 2013 年时，Dropbox 在科技界实际上被认为是一个非常挑剔、很难进入的地方。

You could have an amazing resume, and Dropbox was really selective about the type of people they brought in.

你可以拥有一份令人惊叹的简历，而 Dropbox 对于他们引进的人才类型非常挑剔。

So I think they looked for two main things.

所以我认为他们主要寻找两件事。

They looked for first principles thinkers, so not necessarily your experience, but how do you approach problems, how do you know the right questions to ask?

他们寻找的是第一原理思想家，所以不一定是你的经验，而是你如何处理问题，你如何知道要提出正确的问题？

And then create your own framework around that.

然后围绕它创建您自己的框架。

Melissa Tan: Dropbox also hired for people that were just really humble, collaborative and team oriented.

Melissa Tan：Dropbox 还招聘那些非常谦虚、善于协作、注重团队精神的人。

And the combination of those two things, people that were just first principle thinkers also just really collaborative to tons of innovation.

这两件事的结合，那些只是第一原理思想家的人也真正协作完成了大量的创新。

And so when you think about freemium product led growth, even we created a high velocity sales motion there, there was just so much innovation because you had these folks that just knew how to solve problems and worked really well cross-functionally across product growth, sales, et cetera.

因此，当你想到免费增值产品主导的增长时，即使我们在那里创建了高速销售活动，也有很多创新，因为这些人知道如何解决问题，并且在产品增长、销售等方面跨职能工作得非常好。

Melissa Tan: And also, broadly speaking, the company just infused the topic of hiring and recruiting into the culture.

Melissa Tan：而且，从广义上讲，公司只是将招聘和招聘的主题融入到文化中。

It was something that as I was there, everyone knew we were all going to be spending a ton of time interviewing.

当我在那里时，每个人都知道我们都会花费大量时间进行采访。

We all were trained on how to sell Dropbox and how to sell the roles we were recruiting for too so that we could close top talent.

我们都接受了如何销售 Dropbox 以及如何销售我们正在招聘的职位的培训，以便我们能够吸引顶尖人才。

So I think that's something we definitely got and I learned a ton about.

所以我认为我们确实得到了这一点，并且我学到了很多东西。

The other thing was the importance of execution.

另一件事是执行的重要性。

Melissa Tan: So a lot of times at Dropbox we would try something and it didn't work the first time around and it was easy to be maybe say that just doesn't work for us, like growth.

Melissa Tan：所以在 Dropbox，我们很多时候都会尝试一些东西，但第一次并没有成功，而且很容易被人说这对我们不起作用，比如增长。

We actually had tried to do some growth experiments back in 2013 and they didn't find much traction, but what we found is the devil, I like to say the devils and the details and the devils and how you execute.

事实上，我们早在 2013 年就尝试过做一些增长实验，但并没有发现太多吸引力，但我们发现的是魔鬼，我喜欢说魔鬼和细节，魔鬼以及你如何执行。

And so coming back to how do we execute just a little bit differently and some of the learnings there where I think the first time we started growth, we could have been more user-centric and been a lot more hypothesis driven.

因此，回到我们如何以稍微不同的方式执行，以及我认为我们第一次开始增长时的一些学习，我们本可以更加以用户为中心，并且更加以假设为驱动。

We were following a lot of best practices that just didn't really apply to Dropbox.

我们遵循了许多最佳实践，但实际上并不适用于 Dropbox。

Melissa Tan: And so the way that you execute ends up really mattering.

Melissa Tan：所以执行的方式最终非常重要。

That was the second learning.

这是第二次学习。

The third is just focus.

第三个就是专注。

I think you alluded to this, I think the blessing and the curse of early success is that you can get pulled in so many different directions and Dropbox had a consumer business, a B2B business, and I think we could have clarified what is our point of view on what the overall motion should look like, how do we blend and think about the journey from consumer to B2B really early on, and I think a learning was that we just started our sales motion and our enterprise a little bit later than we should have and a lot of competition caught up to us.

我想你提到了这一点，我认为早期成功的好处和坏处是，你可以被拉向这么多不同的方向，Dropbox有消费者业务，B2B业务，我认为我们可以澄清我们对整体运动应该是什么样子的看法，我们如何融合并思考从消费者到B2B的旅程，我认为一个教训是我们刚刚开始我们的销售运动和我们的企业比我们应该的要晚一点，并且有很多竞争由我们决定。

Melissa Tan: And then finally, I think the fourth one that I really believe in is how do you engage the whole company in thinking about go-to-market growth and revenue.

Melissa Tan：最后，我认为我真正相信的第四个问题是如何让整个公司参与思考上市增长和收入。

Back in 2013, in tech growth was kind of like this dirty word and revenue was a dirty word, and so we were like, "Oh, a good product should sell itself.

早在 2013 年，科技增长就有点像这个肮脏的词，收入也是一个肮脏的词，所以我们就想，“哦，一个好的产品应该自我推销。

And it wasn't until our self-serve business started to slow down that we started our team because we realized there's a ton of opportunity in just optimizing the experience.

直到我们的自助服务业务开始放缓，我们才组建了我们的团队，因为我们意识到优化体验有很多机会。

Melissa Tan: And because we started a bit later, it always felt like growth was a layer on top of product.

Melissa Tan：因为我们起步较晚，所以总感觉增长是产品之上的一层。

I think the best way to execute is just to have that be front and center from the start.

我认为最好的执行方法就是从一开始就将其放在首位和中心位置。

What is our go-to market strategy?

我们的市场进入策略是什么？

How are we thinking about monetization and having that infused into how you think about product development?

我们如何思考货币化，并将其融入到您对产品开发的思考中？

And that's something both JZ who leads product at Webflow and myself been really intentional as we've thought of the collaboration across product and growth.

这是 Webflow 的产品负责人 JZ 和我自己的真正意图，因为我们考虑了跨产品和增长的协作。

So that was definitely a learning.

所以这绝对是一次学习。

So I guess the four things there are just the importance of hiring, execution.

所以我想这四件事就是招聘和执行的重要性。

Think about your go-to market early on and then how do you engage the whole company on thinking about go-to market and growth.

尽早考虑您的进入市场，然后如何让整个公司参与考虑进入市场和增长。

Lenny: You said Dropbox essentially there was a late investment in sales and there's a sense maybe product led growth's going to take us really far.

Lenny：您说过 Dropbox 本质上是在销售方面进行了后期投资，并且有一种感觉，也许产品主导的增长会让我们走得更远。

And I imagine look at Jira and Atlassian, they're just all product led and that's amazing.

我想看看 Jira 和 Atlassian，他们都是以产品为主导的，这太棒了。

I guess what's your current framework for when it makes sense to start leaning into sales and hiring a sales team for say a product led product that is working?

我想当开始倾向于销售并雇用一个销售团队来开发一个有效的产品主导产品时，您当前的框架是什么？

Melissa Tan: It really comes down to the product because initially I think most companies are leaning heavier into sales or heavier into product-led.

Melissa Tan：这实际上取决于产品，因为最初我认为大多数公司都更倾向于销售或更倾向于以产品为主导。

You're usually not doing both at the same time.

你通常不会同时做这两件事。

And so a trend I've seen is starting product-led first and the signal is that is a good motion for you is if the product is really intuitive to onboard onto.

因此，我看到的一个趋势是首先开始以产品为主导，信号是，如果产品真的很直观，那么这对您来说是一个很好的动议。

There's a low learning curve so you don't need a human to onboard the user.

学习曲线较低，因此您不需要人工来引导用户。

Also, if there's a viral component to it, that is really what can take.

此外，如果其中存在病毒成分，那确实是可以采取的。

Melissa Tan: Dropbox is massively viral.

Melissa Tan：Dropbox 非常火爆。

When I think also about Miro or Figma, those also are very viral products.

当我想到 Miro 或 Figma 时，它们也是非常火爆的产品。

Those have a kind of the DNA of product led.

这些都有一种以产品为主导的DNA。

And initially I think when you have scale, you're getting a lot of signal on what is resonating with the user.

最初，我认为当你有了规模，你就会得到很多关于什么能引起用户共鸣的信号。

Initially, you also don't have ...

最初，你也没有...

It takes a while to build out the features for enterprise.

为企业构建功能需要一段时间。

And so as you're building out the product-led motion, you have probably larger companies in your self-serve base and they are often knocking on your door.

因此，当您制定以产品为主导的行动时，您的自助服务基地中可能有更大的公司，他们经常来敲您的门。

Melissa Tan: This happened at Dropbox being like, "I need you to build SSO for me.

Melissa Tan：这发生在 Dropbox 上，“我需要你为我构建 SSO。

I need you to build all these enterprise grade features.

我需要你构建所有这些企业级功能。

It's not secure enough." And so you are also collecting the list of things you need to build on the enterprise side.

它不够安全。”因此，您还收集了需要在企业端构建的内容列表。

And so I think it's typically looking like you might start product-led, then go enterprise.

所以我认为通常看起来你可能会开始以产品为主导，然后转向企业。

And then the other direction I've seen is some companies initially are just more conducive to an enterprise in sales motion.

然后我看到的另一个方向是一些公司最初只是更有利于企业的销售行动。

Potentially, you need to build custom things for these users.

您可能需要为这些用户构建自定义的东西。

It's also not a bottom-up motion.

这也不是自下而上的运动。

Maybe the way you sell the product starts with the legal team or the finance team or some important stakeholder, but then a lot of companies now are trying to make that shift to make the product more accessible and go product led.

也许你销售产品的方式是从法律团队或财务团队或一些重要的利益相关者开始的，但许多公司现在正在尝试进行这种转变，使产品更容易获得并以产品为主导。

Melissa Tan: And so then you're thinking about, okay, how do I make this product simpler to onboard onto?

Melissa Tan：那么你会想，好吧，我如何让这个产品更容易上手？

How do I think about reaching the end user at scale?

我如何考虑大规模接触最终用户？

And so I think it's basically first figuring out where do you start and then starting to invest in the area.

所以我认为基本上首先要弄清楚从哪里开始，然后开始在该领域进行投资。

And I guess maybe lastly, knowing how the whole picture fits together.

我想也许最后，知道整个画面是如何组合在一起的。

There's a lot of companies that do consumer and B2B and I think the earlier you can figure out how they go together and what the paths and journeys look like, it just ends up being more seamless to the user and, yeah.

有很多公司从事消费者和 B2B 业务，我认为越早了解它们如何结合在一起以及路径和旅程是什么样子，最终对用户来说就会更加无缝，是的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so let me start to transition into talking about building awesome teams and high performing teams.

好吧，让我开始讨论如何建立出色的团队和高绩效的团队。

And something that I know about you that I've heard from other people is that you have this reputation for being a person that people follow from company to company, which is the ultimate sign of, I don't know, retention and NPS and product market fit as a leader and a manager.

我从其他人那里听说的关于你的一些信息是，你享有这样的声誉，即人们从一家公司到另一家公司都追随你，这是（我不知道）作为领导者和经理的保留率、NPS 和产品市场契合度的最终标志。

So I'm just curious, what is it that you think you do that gets people to follow you from company to company?

所以我很好奇，你认为你做了什么让人们跟随你从一家公司到另一家公司？

Melissa Tan: I've been really fortunate.

Melissa Tan：我真的很幸运。

I've worked with a few folks from my early Dropbox team that I've known for 10 years now, like a couple of times.

我曾与早期 Dropbox 团队中的一些人一起工作过，我和他们已经认识 10 年了，大概有过几次了。

In some case, three times.

在某些情况下，三次。

And I always feel so privileged that I get the opportunity to work with them again and they have that trust and confidence in me.

我总是感到非常荣幸，因为我有机会再次与他们合作，他们对我充满信任和信心。

I think what it is, and it took me time to develop this, is I have a very people focused approach to how I lead and manage.

我认为，我花了很多时间来发展这一点，那就是我有一种以人为本的领导和管理方法。

I really think the core of it is deeply caring about people, building that trust, investing in their career development, helping them figure out where they want to go in their career.

我真的认为它的核心是深深关心人们，建立信任，投资于他们的职业发展，帮助他们弄清楚他们想要在职业生涯中走向何方。

I think for me it's very personal.

我认为对我来说这是非常个人化的。

I have been really fortunate to have great mentors and managers that helped me in those respects.

我真的很幸运，有伟大的导师和经理在这些方面为我提供了帮助。

And so it really started from just paying it forward and wanting to do the same thing for other people that were on my team.

所以，这真的是从把钱转发出去开始的，并希望为我团队中的其他人做同样的事情。

I think it just comes down to deeply caring and everything, all your actions follow through from there.

我认为这归结为深深的关怀，一切，你所有的行动都从那里开始。

So that's how I would describe that.

这就是我的描述方式。

Lenny: Some people may be hearing that and feel like there's this choice you have to make as a leader deeply care about the person or drive impact, focus on getting the work done.

莱尼：有些人可能听到这句话，觉得作为一个领导者，你必须做出这样的选择：深切关心员工或推动影响力，专注于完成工作。

Do you find that those can coexist or is it this kind of two ends of a spectrum and maybe the question's just like how do you do both?

您是否发现这些可以共存，或者这是一个频谱的两端，也许问题就像您如何同时做到这两点？

How do you help people yes, achieve and drive impact while also feeling like you really care about them?

你如何帮助人们，实现并推动影响，同时又让他们感觉你真的关心他们？

Melissa Tan: I don't think that they're mutually exclusive of each other because I think the other thing that I really emphasize on my team is being very results oriented.

Melissa Tan：我不认为它们是相互排斥的，因为我认为我真正强调我的团队的另一件事是非常注重结果。

So as a growth leader, for better or for worse, everything you do is very measurable.

因此，作为增长领导者，无论好坏，你所做的一切都是可以衡量的。

And so I actually think this is why a lot of folks on my team, something that they actually appreciate is knowing what success looks like and knowing how they'll be measured.

所以我实际上认为这就是为什么我团队中的很多人真正欣赏的是知道成功是什么样子并知道如何衡量成功。

And I actually create a very results-oriented culture on the team where it's clear what our goals are, we break it down into the individual levers, it's clear how success is measured for each individual.

实际上，我在团队中创建了一种非常注重结果的文化，我们的目标很明确，我们将其分解为各个杠杆，很清楚如何衡量每个人的成功。

Melissa Tan: And so I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

Melissa Tan：所以我不认为它们是相互排斥的。

And then my role as a leader is also supporting their career growth, helping them meet those goals and giving them feedback along the way.

作为领导者，我的角色还包括支持他们的职业发展，帮助他们实现这些目标，并在此过程中为他们提供反馈。

So even though they might sound like two different things, I actually think they can coexist and for me, I actually really lean into both.

因此，尽管它们听起来像是两种不同的东西，但我实际上认为它们可以共存，对我来说，我实际上非常倾向于两者。

Lenny: What's an example of caring deeply about someone and being that kind of leader?

莱尼：深切关心某人并成为这样的领导者的例子是什么？

People may be listening and are like, "Oh yeah, I care a lot about my reports." But what are some examples of what that means to you that maybe would surprise people?

人们可能会在听后说：“哦，是的，我非常关心我的报告。”但有哪些例子可以说明这对你来说意味着什么，可能会让人们感到惊讶呢？

Melissa Tan: I think an example from someone that they joined my team and I just early on thought that they weren't maybe moving quickly enough and they needed some more direction.

Melissa Tan：我想举个例子，有人加入了我的团队，我很早就认为他们的行动可能不够快，他们需要更多的指导。

And so really early into them joining the company, that was about two or three weeks in, I actually pulled them aside and I said, "Hey, we need to move a lot faster.

因此，在他们加入公司的早期，大约两三周后，我实际上把他们拉到一边说：“嘿，我们需要更快地行动。

This is where we need to get to by X.

这是我们需要通过 X 到达的地方。

We're a growth team.

我们是一支成长型团队。

We need to prove wins out early.

我们需要尽早证明胜利。

This is how I think we should do it.

我认为我们应该这样做。

Let's try to create a roadmap, a list of problems to solve, et cetera, hypotheses." And they don't have to be right, but just getting something out there, starting to line the whole team on what those are and then defining how we're going to measure success and know we're in the right path.

让我们尝试创建一个路线图，列出要解决的问题，等等，假设。”它们不一定是正确的，但只是把一些东西拿出来，开始让整个团队了解这些是什么，然后定义我们将如何衡量成功并知道我们走在正确的道路上。

We just need to get there as quickly as we can.

我们只需要尽快到达那里。

Melissa Tan: And so I gave them that feedback and afterwards, ever since then they have been just on a tear and they actually have mentioned that in later conversations a year into working together that they were so grateful that I had that conversation with them and that I took the time to tell them those things.

梅丽莎·谭（Melissa Tan）：所以我给了他们反馈，从那时起他们就一直热泪盈眶，他们实际上提到，在合作一年后的谈话中，他们非常感激我与他们进行了那次谈话，并且我花时间告诉他们这些事情。

I think sometimes as a manager it can maybe, you want to avoid the uncomfortable conversations, but I actually think the more direct you can be but also saying this is my intention.

我认为有时作为一名经理，你可能想避免不舒服的谈话，但我实际上认为你可以更直接，但也要说这是我的意图。

My intention is to set you up for success.

我的目的是帮助您取得成功。

That goes really far and I think that's a great example of how do you deeply care about somebody and give them direct feedback and you're giving them direct feedback because you deeply care and you also believe that they can do things differently.

这真的很远，我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明你如何深深地关心某人并给他们直接的反馈，你给他们直接的反馈是因为你深深地关心并且你也相信他们可以做不同的事情。

I think the only reason you would give that feedback is because they can do things differently and you just want to help support them.

我认为您提供反馈的唯一原因是因为他们可以以不同的方式做事，而您只是想帮助支持他们。

Lenny: In that conversation.

莱尼：在那次谈话中。

What is it that you did that made them feel like you really cared about them?

你做了什么让他们觉得你真的关心他们？

Because when I hear you describe it's like you're just telling them, you're giving them feedback just like, "Hey, you need to do a lot better at this.

因为当我听到你描述时，就好像你只是在告诉他们，你在给他们反馈，就像，“嘿，你需要在这方面做得更好。

We need to actually hit our goals." What was it that made them feel like, "Oh, she really wants me to succeed?"

我们需要真正实现我们的目标。”是什么让他们感觉“哦，她真的希望我成功？”

Melissa Tan: I think in that conversation what's important is also saying, "I believe you can do all these things and I'm doing this to support you." Or, "I'm sharing this feedback because I believe in you." Also saying that I'm here as support, as you are building that out, let me know what I can do to support you.

Melissa Tan：我认为在那次谈话中重要的是说，“我相信你可以做所有这些事情，我这样做是为了支持你。”或者，“我分享此反馈是因为我相信你。”还要说我在这里是为了支持你，当你正在构建它时，让我知道我可以做些什么来支持你。

We can jam on it together if it's helpful.

如果有帮助的话我们可以一起做。

Basically, I guess boil it down to one, restating your intention and why you are having that conversation to sharing that you are there to support them and offering your own help as well.

基本上，我想把它归结为一，重申你的意图以及为什么你要进行这次谈话，以分享你在那里支持他们并提供你自己的帮助。

Melissa Tan: Those I think are the things that go along well.

Melissa Tan：我认为这些都是进展顺利的事情。

And I think the third thing is as you give someone feedback, it should never sound like finger pointing or criticizing.

我认为第三件事是，当你给别人反馈时，它绝对不应该听起来像指责或批评。

It's really just, "Hey, this is what I observed, this is the impact that it had and here is a different way." And so keeping the feedback really about the work itself and the specific things that you think can be improved.

这真的只是，“嘿，这就是我观察到的，这就是它所产生的影响，这是一种不同的方式。”因此，保留有关工作本身以及您认为可以改进的具体事项的真实反馈。

Lenny: I know you're also a big fan of developing talent internally versus hiring experts from the outside and it's always this decision I think as a leader and as a company.

莱尼：我知道您也非常热衷于内部培养人才，而不是从外部聘请专家，我认为作为领导者和公司始终是这个决定。

How much do you invest in developing people knowing they can leave anytime, knowing that that's going to take all this time and work?

你在培养那些知道他们可以随时离开、知道这将花费所有时间和工作的人才方面投入了多少？

What have you found from and just learned about the advantages maybe of spending time in developing people and helping them progress and just why is that something you find really important?

您从中发现了什么并且刚刚了解了花时间培养人才并帮助他们进步的好处，以及为什么您认为这非常重要？

Melissa Tan: I'll start with the why behind developing people.

Melissa Tan：我将从培养人才背后的原因开始。

For me personally, it comes from like I'm personally passionate about it just because I feel that a lot of folks invested in me personally when I started out in the working world, I actually struggled quite a lot.

就我个人而言，这来自于我个人对此充满热情，只是因为我觉得当我刚踏入职场时，很多人对我个人进行了投资，我实际上经历了很多挣扎。

I think making the transition from school where it's really clear what success looks like, you're just studying, getting good grades.

我认为从学校过渡到成功是什么样子，你只是在学习，取得好成绩。

To work where things are much more ambiguous was a really big transition for me and I really benefited from so many mentors that invested in me that I kept in touch with over the years that have also just helped me with my careers.

在事情更加模糊的地方工作对我来说是一个非常大的转变，我真的受益于这么多对我的投资的导师，多年来我一直保持着联系，他们也帮助了我的职业生涯。

Melissa Tan: Two that really stand out are from Dropbox, Oliver Jay who goes by OJ and GC Lionetti.

Melissa Tan：两位真正脱颖而出的人是来自 Dropbox 的 Oliver Jay（OJ）和 GC Lionetti。

So it really has come from a very personal place for me.

所以它对我来说确实来自一个非常个人的地方。

Secondly, I think it's just makes a lot of sense as you're scaling a company that as you are growing, it just is a smoother transition that the folks on your team can grow with you.

其次，我认为这很有意义，因为你正在扩展一家公司，随着你的成长，这只是一个更平稳的过渡，你的团队中的人们可以与你一起成长。

People will build institutional knowledge and people talk a lot about founder intuition and that intuition that founders just have.

人们会建立机构知识，人们会经常谈论创始人的直觉以及创始人所拥有的直觉。

I actually think that extends to early employees too, that have built a ton of context on the user on how to get things done at the company.

事实上，我认为这也适用于早期员工，他们为用户建立了大量关于如何在公司完成工作的背景知识。

So the more that you develop talent within the company, the smoother transition is versus bringing someone from the outside where there's just a lot of different factors and there's risk there.

因此，与从外部引进人才相比，你在公司内部培养的人才越多，过渡就越顺利，因为外部因素很多，而且存在风险。

And so it really comes from a personal place, but also it makes a lot of sense from just like de-risking the situation as you're scaling.

所以它确实来自个人的角度，但它也很有意义，就像在扩展时降低情况风险一样。

Lenny: In my personal career I had the biggest inflection point and the most progress I made as a product manager was one manager who just did exactly what you're describing, where you invested really deeply in helping me become a better PM and it was not easy.

Lenny：在我个人的职业生涯中，作为一名产品经理，我经历过最大的转折点和取得的最大进步，就是一位经理完全按照你所描述的那样做了，你投入了大量资金来帮助我成为一名更好的产品经理，这并不容易。

It was just very critical of all the things I wasn't doing perfectly.

它只是对我做得不完美的所有事情非常批评。

And I always think about people don't sometimes have someone like that in their career.

我一直认为人们在职业生涯中有时不会遇到这样的人。

They don't have a manager like Melissa.

他们没有像梅丽莎这样的经理。

Do you have any advice for people that are looking for someone like that or they're just like, "Man, I have no one around me that's really helping me develop?" What do you suggest they do?

对于那些正在寻找这样的人的人，或者他们只是说，“伙计，我周围没有真正帮助我发展的人，你有什么建议吗？”你建议他们做什么？

Melissa Tan: As you are looking for a job, I actually do think you should look to work with people that have that reputation and that you can see that interest that they enjoy mentoring people.

Melissa Tan：当你在找工作时，我确实认为你应该寻找与具有这种声誉的人一起工作，并且你可以看到他们喜欢指导别人的兴趣。

They have a track record of developing people.

他们在人才培养方面有着良好的记录。

Maybe they have brought other people they've worked with at the company from other companies.

也许他们从其他公司带来了在该公司共事过的其他人。

Those are good signals that that's something that that person cares about.

这些都是很好的信号，表明这是那个人关心的事情。

And even in the interview process, kind of interviewing your manager too and understanding what is their management philosophy, how do they think about your career path in that role?

即使在面试过程中，也要采访你的经理并了解他们的管理理念是什么，他们如何看待你在该职位上的职业道路？

Those are things I would look for.

这些是我想要寻找的东西。

Melissa Tan: The second thing too is as you're interviewing, looking for a manager who especially your success will be tied to their success, this is actually what happened.

Melissa Tan：第二件事也是当你面试时，寻找一位经理，特别是你的成功将与他们的成功联系在一起，这实际上是发生的事情。

I mean it's not like you need to be super strategic about that, but when I reflect back at times when I got closest to people was when I was one of the most critical people on their team and they really needed me to be successful and so they also just would spend a ton more time with me.

我的意思是，你不需要对此采取超级战略，但当我回想起来，当我与人们最亲近的时候，我是他们团队中最关键的人之一，他们真的需要我取得成功，所以他们也会花更多的时间和我在一起。

Melissa Tan: So really looking for those opportunities and being really selective in the types of roles you're taking.

Melissa Tan：所以，要真正寻找这些机会，并对你所扮演的角色类型进行严格筛选。

I also think there have been times for me personally where I've built relationships with someone that wasn't my direct manager that worked at the same company.

我还认为，就我个人而言，有时我与在同一家公司工作的非我直接经理的人建立了关系。

And this actually has happened a lot at other companies I've worked with where someone knows that it's a passion of mine to mentor people.

事实上，这种情况在我合作过的其他公司中已经发生过很多次，人们知道我对指导员工充满热情。

And so they proactively reach out to me, ask me for advice, ask me, "Hey, can we set up a monthly recurring sync?"

因此，他们主动联系我，向我寻求建议，问我，“嘿，我们可以设置每月定期同步吗？”

Melissa Tan: And so I also think you can look for other people at the company that you work with.

Melissa Tan：所以我也认为你可以在你工作的公司寻找其他人。

And then finally the other thing is looking for external advisors.

最后另一件事是寻找外部顾问。

I actually, in my advising end up mentoring a lot of the people that I work with too.

事实上，在我的建议中，我最终也指导了很多与我一起工作的人。

It just organically ends up happening.

它只是有机地最终发生。

And so I would say summarize that as just look for the people that you think have this passion, build that relationship with them.

所以我想说总结一下，只要寻找你认为有这种热情的人，与他们建立这种关系。

And ideally I think you actually build the strongest when you are working together.

理想情况下，我认为当你们一起工作时，你们实际上会变得最强大。

You just learn so much about each other, but if you don't have that set up, I think there's other ways to just proactively look for mentorship and guidance.

你们对彼此有了很多了解，但如果你们没有这样的准备，我认为还有其他方法可以主动寻求指导和指导。

Lenny: Any tips on the questions?

莱尼：对这些问题有什么建议吗？

Maybe to ask a manager to help them get to this, if any come to mind and also when you're looking for someone to help you, anything specific you think that people should look for that maybe they may not be thinking about?

也许可以要求经理帮助他们解决这个问题，如果有的话，当你正在寻找某人来帮助你时，你认为人们应该寻找的任何具体内容可能他们可能没有考虑？

Melissa Tan: On the questions to ask when you're interviewing for a role, I would actually ask things like I'd love to get a sense for how you think about ...

Melissa Tan：关于面试某个职位时要问的问题，我实际上会问一些问题，例如我很想了解您的想法......

I mean I think you can flat out ask, I'd like to get a sense of how you think about managing folks on your team, how you think about developing talent on your team and seeing what their responses to that.

我的意思是，我认为你可以直截了当地问，我想了解一下你如何看待管理团队中的人员，如何看待培养团队中的人才，以及看看他们对此有何反应。

I would also ask how are you thinking about the career path for this role?

我还想问一下，您如何看待这个职位的职业道路？

And if the person has not thought about it at all or doesn't ask you, "Well, what is important to you?" I think those are some signals that it's maybe not where this person tends to spend their time thinking.

如果这个人根本没有考虑过或者没有问你：“那么，什么对你来说很重要？”我认为这些信号表明这可能不是这个人花时间思考的地方。

And then I would also ask other people on the panel that are not going to be your manager but that work with this person, especially if you happen to talk to people that they manage, how is this person as a manager?

然后我还会询问小组中的其他人，他们不会成为您的经理，但与此人一起工作，特别是如果您碰巧与他们管理的人交谈，那么这个人作为经理怎么样？

And that ends up being also very insightful.

这最终也非常有洞察力。

Melissa Tan: The questions I would ask if you're looking for someone external, I always find that that relationship is best the more organic it could be.

Melissa Tan：如果你正在寻找外部人员，我会问的问题是，我总是发现这种关系越有机越好。

I think Cheryl Sandberg had wrote this in her book Lean She basically writes about how some people will go, "Will you be my mentor?" And I've got that question too, and it's just a lot of pressure to get asked that question really early in and you don't really know the person.

我认为谢丽尔·桑德伯格在她的《精益》一书中写过这一点，她基本上写的是有些人会如何去，“你愿意成为我的导师吗？”我也有这个问题，而且很早就被问到这个问题，而且你并不真正了解这个人，压力很大。

And so the more it can be organic where you talk to somebody, you have actual advice that you want, some people will just reach out to me that I haven't worked with in a long time and like, "Hey, I'm thinking about a career decision or I'm in this tricky situation at work, can we talk?" And I just give them advice and they will reach out to me for advice occasionally.

因此，当你与某人交谈时，如果你有真正想要的建议，那么有些人就会主动联系我，而我已经很长时间没有共事了，比如，“嘿，我正在考虑职业决定，或者我在工作中遇到了这种棘手的情况，我们可以谈谈吗？”我只是给他们建议，他们偶尔会向我寻求建议。

Melissa Tan: It doesn't have to be a recurring thing that you have to just nurture that relationship.

Melissa Tan：培养这种关系并不一定是一件反复发生的事情。

I think that is a way to do it.

我认为这是一种方法。

Or if you are working with somebody and you want to set up some type of monthly thing, I think you asked for that as well.

或者，如果您正在与某人合作并且想要设置某种类型的每月活动，我想您也要求这样做。

The only thing is I would just be respectful of the time.

唯一的事情是我会尊重时间。

So if you don't have anything to talk about that month or anything like that, I'm just always willing to help people.

因此，如果您那个月没有什么可谈论的或类似的事情，我总是愿意帮助人们。

It doesn't mean we have to be frequently in touch.

这并不意味着我们必须经常联系。

And so I think it's also less about being frequently in touch and it's just going and reaching out when you actually have a problem.

所以我认为这也不是频繁联系的问题，而只是当你确实遇到问题时伸出援手。

People that want to help others are just going to, if they have the time, they'll say yes.

想要帮助别人的人只要有时间就会答应。

Lenny: Tim Ferriss talks about that too.

莱尼：蒂姆·费里斯也谈到了这一点。

He is like, "Never ask someone to be your mentor." As you said, that's a scary proposition.

他说，“永远不要要求别人成为你的导师。”正如你所说，这是一个可怕的提议。

You're committing to something, it's pressure versus just like, "Hey, can we just meet and can I just get some advice?

你正在致力于某件事，这是压力，而不是像“嘿，我们可以见面吗？我可以得到一些建议吗？

And then maybe after you do that, can we meet next month also?" And just help it grow organically.

也许在你这样做之后，我们下个月也可以见面吗？”并帮助它有机成长。

Lenny: I want to talk about how you develop talent and what you've learned there.

莱尼：我想谈谈你如何培养人才以及你在那里学到了什么。

But before that, I wanted to zoom out maybe first and talk about ingredients of high performance teams.

但在此之前，我想先缩小范围，谈谈高绩效团队的要素。

So before I ask that question, can you just list the companies you work with, some of the companies you've worked with?

所以在我问这个问题之前，您能否列出与您合作过的公司，以及与您合作过的一些公司？

Melissa Tan: I guess I've mentioned Dropbox.

Melissa Tan：我想我已经提到了 Dropbox。

So Dropbox was my first high growth tech startup.

所以 Dropbox 是我的第一家高增长科技初创公司。

And then after Dropbox I did a lot of advising.

在 Dropbox 之后，我做了很多建议。

So I got to work with Typeform in Barcelona and then someone at Typeform introduced me to Canva.

所以我在巴塞罗那与 Typeform 合作，然后 Typeform 的某人向我介绍了 Canva。

So I met Canva when they were still about 200 people in their early growth journey.

所以当我认识 Canva 时，他们还只有 200 人左右，正处于早期成长之旅。

Have worked with Grammarly, Miro and then I joined Webflow.

曾与 Grammarly、Miro 合作，然后加入 Webflow。

And so have been fortunate to be part of a ton of, I guess what I would think are high performing teams.

因此，我很幸运能够成为众多我认为是高绩效团队的一员。

Lenny: 100%.

莱尼：100%。

That's an incredible roster.

这是一个令人难以置信的名单。

So here's the question.

那么问题来了。

What are some of the most common ingredients you've seen across these teams, which from an outsider's perspective seem quite high performing?

您在这些团队中看到的一些最常见的要素是什么，从局外人的角度来看，这些团队的表现似乎相当高？

Melissa Tan: I think it first starts with the team having a really clear goals.

Melissa Tan：我认为首先是团队有一个非常明确的目标。

They need to know what success looks like.

他们需要知道成功是什么样的。

And often I think that's for growth teams in particular, it's always really clear, "Hey, we need to hit certain metrics.

我经常认为这对于增长团队来说尤其如此，总是很清楚，“嘿，我们需要达到某些指标。

We have certain goals for the quarter and for the year." And then also having a mission.

我们对本季度和全年都有明确的目标。”然后还有使命。

So the mission's all about the why, right?

所以任务就是关于为什么，对吗？

So an example at Webflow is we have our growth team gold on ultimately the North Star is ARR, Annual Recurring Revenue.

因此，Webflow 的一个例子是，我们的增长团队最终的北极星是 ARR（年度经常性收入）。

And then you break it down into the levers that drive ARR, the leading indicator, so that could be activation rates, the number of customers you bring in, et cetera.

然后你将其分解为驱动ARR（领先指标）的杠杆，因此可能是激活率、你引入的客户数量等等。

And so each team has really clear goals.

因此每个团队都有非常明确的目标。

And then we have our mission.

然后我们就有了我们的使命。

The why.

为什么。

Our mission, the why we do it is we want to build these delightful experiences for our users.

我们的使命，我们这样做的原因是我们希望为我们的用户打造这些令人愉快的体验。

We want to support them on their journey on the product.

我们希望在他们的产品之旅中为他们提供支持。

Melissa Tan: And the reason why the what is monetization is that's just a good signal that people find your product valuable, especially if they're consistently paying you and they're retaining.

Melissa Tan：之所以说货币化，是因为这只是一个很好的信号，表明人们发现你的产品有价值，特别是如果他们持续向你付费并且留住你的话。

And then the other thing that I think is important is culture.

我认为另一件重要的事情是文化。

So how are you going to do these things?

那么你将如何做这些事情呢？

When thinking about culture, obviously it depends on the function and the culture you want to set there.

在考虑文化时，显然这取决于您想要在那里设置的功能和文化。

For me personally, the type of culture I try to set for the team is one around being really results oriented.

就我个人而言，我试图为团队设定的文化类型是一种真正以结果为导向的文化。

Melissa Tan: So something that someone on my team was saying the other day is you always make it really clear that we're going to be measured on impact and that's like how we are ultimately measured as a team.

梅丽莎·谭（Melissa Tan）：所以我团队中的某个人前几天说的是，你总是明确表示我们将根据影响力来衡量，这就像我们作为一个团队最终衡量的方式一样。

And so really creating that results oriented team.

所以真正创建了一个以结果为导向的团队。

Also, a team that's very team first and collaborative.

此外，这是一个非常团队第一和协作的团队。

I think when you have very clear goals, when it's very results-oriented, you could potentially be in a situation where people feel they're competing against each other and you just don't want that.

我认为，当你有非常明确的目标，当它非常注重结果时，你可能会陷入这样一种情况：人们觉得他们在互相竞争，而你只是不希望这样。

You actually want folks on the team to help each other out to share learnings.

您实际上希望团队中的人们互相帮助，分享经验。

Melissa Tan: I think that's what ends up being like a situation where one plus one equals three.

Melissa Tan：我认为最终会出现一加一等于三的情况。

You're not locally optimizing but you're thinking broader about the team and thinking beyond yourself.

你不是在局部优化，而是在更广泛地考虑团队并超越你自己。

The third thing is really this ownership mentality.

第三件事实际上是这种所有权心态。

Something I directly saw at Dropbox is when we were a smaller company, everyone just felt a lot more ownership in accountability because there's just nobody else.

我在 Dropbox 直接看到的一点是，当我们还是一家小公司时，每个人都感受到了更多的责任感，因为没有其他人了。

You're wearing five different hats.

你戴着五顶不同的帽子。

You have to do it.

你必须这么做。

Melissa Tan: As you scale, it's really easy to suddenly feel like that ownership is diluted.

Melissa Tan：随着规模的扩大，很容易突然感觉所有权被稀释了。

And so something I always try to keep in the team, it's a feeling that we're owners and that really proactive mindset of how am I going to solve this problem?

因此，我一直试图在团队中保持一种感觉，那就是我们是所有者的感觉，以及我将如何解决这个问题的真正积极主动的心态？

I'm blocked by this team, what am I going to do about it?

我被这个团队屏蔽了，我该怎么办？

And just being people that have strong sense of agency.

并且只是具有强烈代理意识的人。

And then lastly having fun.

最后玩得开心。

I think that especially in high pressured environments, easy to get stressed and all that stuff.

我认为特别是在高压环境下，很容易感到压力等等。

And at the end of the day, this is very personal me, but the more fun you can have, the better everything is.

归根结底，这是非常个人化的我，但你享受的乐趣越多，一切就越好。

And so just making sure you're infusing fun along the way and you're not taking things too seriously.

因此，只要确保你一路上注入乐趣，并且不会把事情看得太严肃。

Lenny: So I was taking notes as you were talking and there's kind of these four items just to summarize.

莱尼：所以当你说话时我正在做笔记，这四项只是为了总结。

One is creating a culture of impact and performance.

一是创造一种影响力和绩效的文化。

Two is being team first and making about the team versus the person.

二是团队第一，并以团队与个人为中心。

Three is creating a sense of ownership and making people feel like they're owners and then having fun, which I love.

三是创造一种主人翁意识，让人们感觉自己是主人，然后享受乐趣，这是我喜欢的。

A question I have there is say within the ownership bucket of creating a sense of ownership, what do you actually do to create that sense amongst the team?

我的一个问题是，在创造主人翁意识的所有权范围内，你实际上做了什么来在团队中建立这种意识？

Melissa Tan: I think it first starts with defining the scope that everyone is going to own and drive.

Melissa Tan：我认为首先要定义每个人都将拥有和驾驶的范围。

So as you are setting up the team, it's important that each person on the team has scope that they can run independently and that they are excited to own and drive.

因此，当您组建团队时，重要的是团队中的每个人都有可以独立运行的空间，并且他们乐于拥有和驾驶。

So one example here is as I was leaving Dropbox, the finance team looked at our metrics and saw that each growth PM was bringing over a million in AR per year just from all the experiments.

举个例子，当我离开 Dropbox 时，财务团队查看了我们的指标，发现每位增长 PM 每年仅从所有实验中就带来了超过 100 万的 AR 收入。

Melissa Tan: Yeah.

梅丽莎·谭：是的。

And so that's quite a lot of impact.

所以这是相当大的影响。

And being a finance team, they said logically we should just double the team.

作为一个财务团队，他们从逻辑上说我们应该将团队人数加倍。

If each person brings in more than a million, if we want to double the AR, let's just double the team.

如果每个人带来的收入超过一百万，如果我们想要将 AR 加倍，那么我们就将团队加倍。

And so I actually pushed back significantly though.

所以我实际上大幅推迟了。

I thought to myself, "If we double the team, what is everyone on the team going to own and drive?

我心想：“如果我们将团队加倍，团队中的每个人都会拥有和驾驶什么？

Is it like we split up different parts of the website, different parts of the product 1:00 PM owns just like the checkout flow.

是不是就像我们分割了网站的不同部分，产品的不同部分 1:00 PM 拥有，就像结账流程一样。

Melissa Tan: I didn't think that was going to be interesting enough for the team and going to help us recruit people that were excited to solve such small parts of the growth problem.

Melissa Tan：我认为这对团队来说不够有趣，也不会帮助我们招募那些热衷于解决增长问题的一小部分的人。

And so really thinking about how do you carve out scope and if you are a growth team, maybe thinking about splitting up by problems to solve that are really meaty by areas of the funnel like activation, monetization, et cetera.

因此，真正考虑一下如何开拓范围，如果您是一个增长团队，也许可以考虑按问题进行拆分，以解决漏斗中诸如激活、货币化等领域的实际问题。

So first starting out with carving out good scope.

因此，首先要确定良好的范围。

And then the second thing is just infusing a culture of thinking like an owner.

第二件事就是注入一种像所有者一样思考的文化。

This infusing of the culture, I think it comes out in a few ways.

我认为这种文化的注入可以通过几个方面体现出来。

One is, and this is really common in growth.

一是，这在成长中确实很常见。

Growth is so cross-functional that you often will end up feeling like you're blocked by other teams.

增长是如此跨职能，以至于你常常会感觉自己被其他团队阻碍了。

Melissa Tan: Let's say we want to run an experiment on this part of the product, maybe it's a core PM that kind of owns that service area that doesn't want to drive that thing or let's say or blocked by a bottleneck on designer engineering.

Melissa Tan：假设我们想对产品的这一部分进行实验，也许它是一个拥有该服务领域的核心 PM，但不想驱动该东西，或者被设计师工程的瓶颈所阻碍。

It's something where I think if you're thinking an owner, you are not feeling easily disempowered because you can't do something and instead you're thinking, "What is everything I can do and did I exhaust all the options?"

我认为，如果你想成为一名所有者，你就不会因为无能为力而感到轻易被剥夺权力，而是会想：“我能做的一切是什么？我是否用尽了所有的选择？”

Melissa Tan: And then finally it's leading by example.

Melissa Tan：最后是以身作则。

I try to also show to my team that I'm always thinking like an owner and then I'm always trying to do everything I can.

我也尝试向我的团队表明，我总是像老板一样思考，然后我总是尽我所能。

And finally as a leader, thinking like an owner also means taking responsibility for your team.

最后，作为领导者，像所有者一样思考也意味着对你的团队负责。

And so if things don't go right in my team, I'm the first one to say that ultimately I'm responsible and it's a failure or oversight on my side.

因此，如果我的团队中事情进展不顺利，我是第一个说最终我要负责的人，这是我的失败或疏忽。

And so that is what I think an ownership mentality is.

这就是我认为的所有权心态。

It's just really thinking about the scope, creating that culture and then as a leader it's just seeing yourself as ultimately being accountable.

这只是真正考虑范围，创造这种文化，然后作为领导者，你只是认为自己最终要负起责任。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And this connects to something else I wanted to pull the thread on, which is the team first bucket.

这与我想牵扯的其他事情有关，那就是团队第一桶。

I think about Meta, not to throw them under the bus or anything, but I feel like everyone I know at Meta their performance review is very tied to their impact.

我想到 Meta，并不是要把他们扔到公共汽车或其他什么东西下，但我觉得我在 Meta 认识的每个人的绩效评估都与他们的影响密切相关。

It's very impact driven and that leads to people needing to drive impact themselves.

它非常受影响力驱动，这导致人们需要自己推动影响力。

I drove this impact and they look at how much did you contribute to that impact versus other people on your team.

我推动了这种影响，他们会看看你与团队中的其他人相比对这种影响做出了多少贡献。

And it creates some challenges I think for people.

我认为这给人们带来了一些挑战。

How do you create that feeling of team first, even though your performance as you talked about is so tied to here's your success metric, here's what success means for you, for the team, how do you make it feel team first versus like, I need to do this myself?

你如何创造团队第一的感觉，即使你所说的你的表现与你的成功指标密切相关，这就是成功对你、对团队意味着什么，你如何让人感觉团队第一而不是像“我需要自己做这件事”？

Melissa Tan: There's definitely a delicate balance here.

Melissa Tan：这里绝对存在微妙的平衡。

It comes down to the way that I think the manager leads the team and sets the tone.

我认为这取决于主教练领导团队和定下基调的方式。

And so for me, I always make it clear that even though results are important, it's a team sport.

因此，对我来说，我总是明确表示，尽管结果很重要，但这是一项团队运动。

And so I often find that I am encouraging the team to work together.

所以我经常发现我鼓励团队一起工作。

So again, as a leader, you have context in everything happening.

再说一次，作为领导者，你对发生的一切都有背景。

So sometimes I know 1:00 PM is working on something or even a PM outside our team is working on something and I try to actually fill in context if I think someone on my team could contribute.

因此，有时我知道 1:00 PM 正在处理某些事情，甚至我们团队之外的 PM 正在处理某些事情，如果我认为团队中有人可以做出贡献，我会尝试实际填写上下文。

And I encourage that action even though it doesn't maybe feed into impact on the thing they're driving.

我鼓励这种行动，尽管它可能不会对他们所驾驶的东西产生影响。

So it really comes down to the culture that you set and what you encourage the team to do.

因此，这实际上取决于您设定的文化以及您鼓励团队做什么。

I also think the more that you can see that you actually benefit from helping each other out, the better it is.

我还认为，你越能看到自己从互相帮助中真正受益，那就越好。

Melissa Tan: And finally, I think again, leading by example, because I actually am very team first, I'm often actually helping other teams and doing things that might not ultimately benefit or be part of my scope.

Melissa Tan：最后，我再次思考，以身作则，因为我实际上非常注重团队第一，我经常帮助其他团队并做一些最终可能不会受益或不属于我范围的事情。

A good example here is I was actually driving pricing and packaging at Webflow for a very long time just because no one at the company was driving it and it was a huge opportunity area and I actually was doing it for enterprise pricing too.

一个很好的例子是，我实际上在 Webflow 上驱动了很长一段时间的定价和包装，只是因为公司里没有人驱动它，而且这是一个巨大的机会领域，而且我实际上也在为企业定价做这件事。

And so even though I am overseeing self-serve, I was actually supporting enterprise pricing and packaging.

因此，尽管我负责监督自助服务，但实际上我是在支持企业定价和包装。

And so I also showed to my team, "Hey, I'm also doing all these things to help the company." And I think that is what helps set that tone and that culture.

所以我也向我的团队展示，“嘿，我也在做所有这些事情来帮助公司。”我认为这有助于确定基调和文化。

Lenny: How do you then avoid doing too much work?

莱尼：那么你如何避免做太多的工作呢？

I think there's also this challenge of people being too good at too many things and then they end up doing so many things and then they burn out.

我认为还有一个挑战，那就是人们太擅长太多事情，然后他们最终做了太多事情，然后他们精疲力尽。

Do you have any rules of thumb or lessons there?

您有什么经验法则或经验教训吗？

Melissa Tan: I think for me it's been a learning journey too.

Melissa Tan：我认为对我来说这也是一次学习之旅。

I've actually gotten feedback on that very thing for my team that Melissa sometimes taking on too much or trying to do too much.

事实上，我收到了关于我的团队的反馈，梅丽莎有时承担了太多或试图做太多事情。

And so I think it's a delicate balance.

所以我认为这是一个微妙的平衡。

If we're talking about that person individually, you have to know what your limits are and you also can do things in spurts, but it's important to know ultimately what you can take on.

如果我们单独谈论那个人，你必须知道你的极限是什么，你也可以快速做事，但重要的是要知道最终你能承担什么。

Also I find that putting a specific timeline like, "Hey, I'm going to do this thing for a quarter, but after that we really need to find somebody else to do it." Or hand it off is really helpful.

我还发现，要制定一个具体的时间表，比如“嘿，我要做这件事一个季度，但在那之后我们真的需要找其他人来做这件事。”或者把它交给别人真的很有帮助。

It's definitely a delicate balance.

这绝对是一个微妙的平衡。

I do think it's a great question because I think that's a common thing people early in their careers struggle with, which is they could lose focus because they're trying to help everybody.

我确实认为这是一个很好的问题，因为我认为这是人们在职业生涯早期遇到的一个常见问题，即他们可能会因为试图帮助每个人而失去焦点。

Melissa Tan: That was actually a problem I had when I first joined Dropbox is I was the only sales ops person, so I was just helping every sales leader with their metrics and very focused.

Melissa Tan：这实际上是我第一次加入 Dropbox 时遇到的一个问题，因为我是唯一的销售运营人员，所以我只是帮助每位销售领导者制定他们的指标，并且非常专注。

And so it is a little bit of trial and error.

所以这需要一点尝试和错误。

I think the most important thing is to not be so overly focused on just what you're doing and try to help others, but then knowing that there are certain things that just can't drop.

我认为最重要的是不要过度关注自己正在做的事情并尝试帮助他人，但要知道有些事情是不能放弃的。

And if you start to see things that are starting to drop that you're ultimately responsible for, that's a signal that you're taking on too much.

如果你开始看到你最终要负责的事情开始下降，那就表明你承担了太多。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Lenny：本集由 Eppo 为您带来，Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage, Eppo does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的一件事是我们的实验平台，在这个平台上我能够按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块，Eppo 可以完成所有这些工作，并且可以快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead use your North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

Eppo 让您可以超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports test on the front end, on the back end, email marketing, even machine learning claims.

Eppo 支持前端、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习声明。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, that's geteppo.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，这是 geteppo.com，它是您实验速度的 10 倍。

Lenny: Let's come back to the developing talent bucket.

莱尼：让我们回到人才培养桶上来。

I would kind of went on a tangent, but I want to come back to that.

我可能有点偏离主题了，但我想回到正题。

So we talked about why you're excited about developing talent, the benefits you've experienced.

所以我们讨论了为什么您对培养人才感到兴奋，以及您所经历的好处。

I'm curious what you actually do to help people become better product managers, leaders of all kinds.

我很好奇你实际上做了什么来帮助人们成为更好的产品经理、各种领导者。

What actually have you seen works?

你到底看到了什么作品？

Melissa Tan: In terms of developing talent, I think of this as stages of the life cycle of your relationship, right?

Melissa Tan：就培养人才而言，我认为这是你们关系生命周期的阶段，对吧？

So I think at first actually starts is a very meta as a growth person starts with when you hire somebody, really making sure you're finding somebody that is a good fit for the role.

所以我认为，一开始实际上是一个非常元的过程，作为一个成长型人才，当你雇佣某人时，首先要确保你找到了一个非常适合这个角色的人。

It's a good mutual fit.

这是一个很好的相互契合。

I also tend to look for folks that have a growth mindset.

我也倾向于寻找具有成长心态的人。

Melissa Tan: There're people that are wanting to learn.

Melissa Tan：有人想学习。

They're looking for feedback.

他们正在寻找反馈。

They take feedback well.

他们很好地接受反馈。

And then after that they join the company, and as a manager, my job is to help set them up for success.

然后他们加入公司，作为经理，我的工作就是帮助他们取得成功。

So how do I ramp them up as quickly as possible, connect them to the right people, the company?

那么我如何尽快让他们成长，将他们与合适的人、公司联系起来呢？

How do I also make sure it's clear what success looks like in their first 90 days?

我如何确保他们清楚在前 90 天内成功是什么样子？

And then how do I help them secure early wins essentially?

那么我如何帮助他们从本质上获得早期胜利呢？

Melissa Tan: So I often will suggest, "Hey, you should do this presentation.

Melissa Tan：所以我经常会建议，“嘿，你应该做这个演示。

It's a great way to get visibility early in your journey here." Here are some things where there's low hanging fruit or even rotting fruit that you should take on into secure early wins.

这是在您来这里的旅程中尽早获得可见性的好方法。”以下是一些容易实现的目标，甚至是腐烂的目标，您应该采取这些措施以确保早期胜利。

Then in your journey, I think it's a lot about just giving feedback along the way, making sure you give visibility.

然后在你的旅程中，我认为重要的是一路上提供反馈，确保你提供可见性。

One recent hack I have is having folks on the team create looms that they can share with different leaders at Webflow.

我最近的一项黑客活动是让团队中的人员创建织机，他们可以与 Webflow 的不同领导者共享这些织机。

It's hard to sometimes get visibility and get live meeting calendars, but if you create a five or 10 minute-loom on something you did.

有时很难获得可见性并获得实时会议日历，但如果您在所做的事情上创建一个 5 或 10 分钟的织布机。

That's just a great way to get visibility.

这只是获得可见性的好方法。

Melissa Tan: And then finally, I think it's that lifelong relationship actually.

Melissa Tan：最后，我认为这实际上是终生的关系。

So I'm still in touch with a lot of people that I've managed and I've helped them.

所以我仍然与我管理过的很多人保持着联系，并帮助过他们。

Whether it's looking for their new job or they have career advice, I always make myself available.

无论是寻找新工作还是提供职业建议，我总是乐意为他们提供帮助。

And so it's actually that lifelong journey of just developing that person.

所以这实际上是培养这个人的终生旅程。

And at some point it's not even developing that person, but it's having a friendship with somebody.

在某些时候，它甚至不是发展那个人，而是与某人建立友谊。

And I feel like I've learned a ton from people that I have managed.

我觉得我从我管理过的人那里学到了很多东西。

And so it ends up being this really great thing where you initially started working together but you now know each other so well.

所以这最终成为一件非常伟大的事情，你们最初开始一起工作，但现在你们彼此非常了解。

And I think that's even how I've developed as a manager is just getting feedback from my team.

我认为这就是我作为一名经理的发展方式，就是从我的团队那里获得反馈。

Lenny: This all comes back to something you mentioned a couple of times earlier, just caring a lot about the person that you work with.

莱尼：这一切都可以追溯到你之前多次提到的事情，就是非常关心与你一起工作的人。

Your approach also reminds me of this book, Radical Candor.

你的做法也让我想起了《激进坦率》这本书。

I imagine you're a fan and that's kind of the way you think about it.

我想你是一个粉丝，这就是你的想法。

Melissa Tan: Yeah, definitely.

梅丽莎·谭：是的，当然。

Interestingly enough, Kim Scott was at Dropbox for a short period of time, so when I joined Dropbox, she was actually on my interview panel and we overlapped for three months and she actually workshopped that book with our team before she published it.

有趣的是，Kim Scott 在 Dropbox 工作了很短一段时间，所以当我加入 Dropbox 时，她实际上是我的面试小组成员，我们重叠了三个月，实际上她在出版这本书之前与我们的团队一起研讨过这本书。

And that always resonated with me.

这总是引起我的共鸣。

And I remember her saying you have to ...

我记得她说你必须...

I forget the exact words, but it's essentially be direct but deeply care.

我忘记了具体的措辞，但本质上是直接但深切的关怀。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Care deeply, but something directly challenged directly.

深切关心，却有直接挑战的事情。

Something like that.

类似的事情。

Melissa Tan: Yeah, care deeply but challenge directly and that has always been something that is something I try to infuse and has really inspired me as leader.

Melissa Tan：是的，深切关心但直接挑战，这一直是我试图注入的东西，并且真正激励了我作为领导者。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We're going to link to that book if folks don't know about it.

如果人们不知道这本书，我们将链接到这本书。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

You talked about hiring PMs and how that is important in building high performing teams.

您谈到了招聘产品经理以及这对于建立高绩效团队的重要性。

So let's spend a little time there, maybe just two questions all throughout and you can approach them however you want.

因此，让我们花一点时间在那里，也许整个过程中只有两个问题，您可以随心所欲地回答它们。

One is just what do you look for when you're hiring product managers?

一是你在招聘产品经理时寻找什么？

You've hired a lot of PMs.

您雇佣了很多 PM。

You've managed a lot of PMs over the years.

多年来您管理过很多产品经理。

What do you look for, especially things that maybe other people don't focus on enough, and then just what is your interview process?

你在寻找什么，特别是其他人可能没有足够关注的东西，那么你的面试过程是怎样的？

What do you find is most helpful for interviewing process-wise?

您认为什么对面试流程最有帮助？

Melissa Tan: In terms of what I look for, I think there's this kind of known list of things that you probably want to look for, for a PM that I probably are not going to ...

Melissa Tan：就我寻找的内容而言，我认为对于我可能不会寻找的 PM，我认为您可能想要寻找这种已知的东西清单......

I'm say anything groundbreaking here, but obviously communication skills, the ability to manage stakeholders and work well cross-functionally.

我在这里所说的都是开创性的，但显然是沟通技巧、管理利益相关者和跨职能良好工作的能力。

The things that I lean especially heavy on in my interview process is this concept of first principles thinking or strong critical thinking.

在面试过程中，我特别依赖的是第一性原理思维或强烈批判性思维的概念。

So usually there's some live problem solving component to my interview process where I really lean more heavily into how would you approach X problem?

因此，我的面试过程中通常会有一些实时解决问题的部分，我实际上更倾向于了解您将如何解决 X 问题？

And then I dig into the Y and try to understand why would they approach it this way, see what questions they're asking and just see how they approach problem solving.

然后我深入研究 Y 并尝试理解他们为什么会这样处理问题，看看他们问什么问题，看看他们如何解决问题。

Melissa Tan: And then the other thing that I look for that I mentioned is that growth mindset.

Melissa Tan：我提到的另一件事是成长心态。

So really seeing how does this person take feedback.

所以真正看看这个人如何接受反馈。

And so I'll actually sometimes give feedback to candidates through the process.

因此，有时我实际上会在整个过程中向候选人提供反馈。

Something that I do that I learned a few years ago that was super helpful, so I always have a presentation component to the interview process that checks for prepared thinking communication.

我几年前学到的一些东西非常有帮助，所以我总是在面试过程中加入一个演示部分，以检查准备好的思维沟通。

And I recommend a prep call between the two of us before that presentation.

我建议我们两人在演讲之前进行一次准备电话会议。

And I actually will give feedback on the presentation.

我实际上会对演示提供反馈。

Melissa Tan: And what this gives me signal is what is it actually going to be like to work together?

Melissa Tan：这给了我一个信号，那就是一起工作实际上会是什么样子？

And then I see how they incorporate it into the final product and that is always really interesting and sometimes it's the biggest signal to what it's going to be like to work with this person.

然后我看到他们如何将其融入到最终产品中，这总是非常有趣，有时这是与这个人合作的最大信号。

Lenny: Okay, this is great.

莱尼：好的，这太棒了。

I want to spend a little time here.

我想在这里度过一点时间。

So what is the actual sequence that you recommend or you use for interviewing?

那么您推荐或用于面试的实际顺序是什么？

There's a presentation, there's a rep call but also is kind of involved in that.

有一个演示，有一个代表电话，但也参与其中。

Melissa Tan: Usually hiring manager screen, and I actually do the live problem solving at this screen.

Melissa Tan：通常是招聘经理屏幕，我实际上是在这个屏幕上实时解决问题的。

I actually think it weeds out the most people.

我实际上认为它淘汰了大多数人。

And there's actually two things I do here.

实际上我在这里做了两件事。

One is a live problem solving.

一是现场解决问题。

How would you approach X?

你会如何接近X？

So let's say I'm hiring for pricing at Webflow, I would ask, "How would you approach pricing?" I sometimes would say, "Hey, do you have your laptop?

假设我正在 Webflow 进行定价招聘，我会问，“你们会如何定价？”有时我会说：“嘿，你有笔记本电脑吗？

Can you pull up our pricing page?

您能打开我们的定价页面吗？

Curious to get your thoughts, what would you want to change?" That was a trick I learned at Dropbox where we would actually pull up the Dropbox website and be like, "Hey, what'd you want to test here?

我很想知道你的想法，你想改变什么？”这是我在 Dropbox 学到的一个技巧，我们实际上会打开 Dropbox 网站，然后说：“嘿，你想在这里测试什么？

Why?" And you get a ton of signal on how they approach the problem, how they think.

为什么？”你会得到大量关于他们如何处理问题、如何思考的信号。

Melissa Tan: I ask why a bunch.

Melissa Tan：我问为什么是一堆。

And then the next screen is talking to more folks at the team that test for different competencies.

然后下一个屏幕是与团队中测试不同能力的更多人交谈。

And depending on what you're hiring for, we just have each person focused on a different competency.

根据您招聘的职位，我们让每个人专注于不同的能力。

And it also depends on the roles.

这也取决于角色。

So some roles are more technical, some require working more closely with different stakeholders, so you want to make sure you can test those things.

因此，有些角色更具技术性，有些角色需要与不同的利益相关者更密切地合作，因此您需要确保可以测试这些内容。

And then the final round is the presentation and then also maybe a conversation on other areas.

然后最后一轮是演讲，然后可能还有其他领域的对话。

Melissa Tan: We want that kind of come through the interview process.

Melissa Tan：我们希望通过面试过程得到这样的信息。

We want to dig in further.

我们想进一步挖掘。

The presentation is usually thinking through how you'd approach, your collecting all this information on the company or the problem throughout the interview process.

演示通常会思考你将如何处理、在整个面试过程中收集有关公司或问题的所有信息。

And so it culminates in what do you think this should look like or maybe what would you want to do in your first 90 days?

因此，最终您认为这应该是什么样子，或者您想在头 90 天内做什么？

It depends on the role, but it's usually some type of presentation about the problem you would be working on at the company.

这取决于角色，但通常是关于您将在公司解决的问题的某种类型的演示。

Melissa Tan: Before that, we have that preparation call with me where often candidates will have questions like, "Oh, I need to know this data," or "I'm curious about X." And so it's really just a call to help them.

Melissa Tan：在此之前，我们会与我进行准备电话会议，候选人经常会提出诸如“哦，我需要知道这些数据”或“我对 X 感到好奇”之类的问题。所以这实际上只是一个帮助他们的电话。

And then at this stage too, they'll often have the actual draft of the presentation and so we'll go through it together and I'll actually be like, "Hey, I think you should lean in heavier here.

然后在这个阶段，他们通常也会有演示文稿的实际草稿，所以我们会一起浏览它，我实际上会说，“嘿，我认为你应该在这里更加努力。

How would you think about this?" I'll even say for example, at Webflow I'll be like, "We're thinking about X, Y, Z thing just so you know.

对此你会怎么想？”举例来说，我什至会说，在 Webflow 上我会说，“我们正在考虑 X、Y、Z 的事情，所以你知道。

And maybe incorporating that into your presentation would be really helpful.

也许将其纳入您的演示文稿中会非常有帮助。

Melissa Tan: And so that's where I get a lot of signal of what is it going to be like to work with this person on a presentation?

Melissa Tan：所以我从这里得到了很多信号，知道与这个人一起做演示会是什么样子？

And then I'll see in the presentation whether they incorporate it or not or how they did.

然后我会在演示中看到他们是否合并了它，或者他们是如何做的。

And sometimes I've seen candidates that didn't incorporate any of it and I kind of am like, "Okay, this is probably not a fit." And actually I think that other thing about that call is it helps just set the candidate up for success.

有时我看到候选人没有包含任何内容，我有点想，“好吧，这可能不合适。”事实上，我认为这次电话会议的另一件事是它有助于为候选人的成功做好准备。

It's actually quite a lot of work to create a presentation.

创建演示文稿实际上需要大量工作。

The more we can help them by giving them information, making sure they can be successful, it's helpful.

我们越能通过向他们提供信息来帮助他们，确保他们能够成功，这就会很有帮助。

And I think guess lastly, it gives them a taste of what it's like to work with me.

我想最后，这让他们体验到了和我一起工作的感觉。

Lenny: I've never heard of that step before.

莱尼：我以前从未听说过这一步。

That is really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

They actually give them feedback before they present.

他们实际上在展示之前就给了他们反馈。

I imagine they're like, "What the hell is going on here?" I thought I was trying to show them what I can do, not like they're going to help me do a great job.

我想他们会想，“这里到底发生了什么？”我以为我是想向他们展示我能做什么，而不是让他们帮我做得很好。

That is really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Maybe two very logistical questions there.

也许有两个非常逻辑上的问题。

How much time do you give them to work on this presentation?

您给他们多少时间来完成这个演示？

And then two, you said that you asked some questions related to the actual problem solving versus a theoretical problem.

第二，你说你问了一些与实际问题解决和理论问题相关的问题。

So those are the two questions, I guess.

我想这是两个问题。

Melissa Tan: Typically we will schedule it about a week in advance.

Melissa Tan：通常我们会提前一周左右安排。

They have a week.

他们有一周的时间。

The tricky thing here is obviously it's a big ask to ask someone to create a presentation.

这里棘手的事情显然是要求某人创建演示文稿是一个很大的要求。

And so if it's one week that's long enough to create it, but it's short enough that you don't spend tons of time.

因此，如果一周的时间足够长，足以创建它，但又足够短，您不必花费大量时间。

The other thing is just making it clear, don't exceed more than X number of slides.

另一件事只是说清楚，不要超过 X 数量的幻灯片。

In Webflow's case we've done, don't exceed more than 30 slides.

在 Webflow 的例子中，我们已经做到了，不要超过 30 张幻灯片。

And that's like quite a lot.

这样的数量相当多。

We do not expect you to do 30 slides.

我们不期望您制作 30 张幻灯片。

And then the other thing I make sure to emphasize is it's really about wanting to know how you'd approach it.

然后我要强调的另一件事是，这实际上是想知道你会如何处理它。

So don't worry about the slides, be able to talk to it and have what you need to talk to it because we're actually just looking for the substance.

因此，不必担心幻灯片，能够与它交谈并拥有与它交谈所需的内容，因为我们实际上只是在寻找实质内容。

And so that's how much time we give them and it's usually a 30-minute presentation with 15-minute Q&A.

这就是我们给他们的时间，通常是 30 分钟的演示和 15 分钟的问答。

Melissa Tan: The second part of your question was, so in terms of picking the topic, so there's a few ways to think about it.

Melissa Tan：你问题的第二部分是，在选择主题方面，有几种方法可以考虑。

I know some folks will be like, "Oh, we have candidates present on something they've worked with in the past." I've tried that form and it's really difficult because I found that candidates even sometimes spend tons of time sharing the context of that company.

我知道有些人会说，“哦，我们有候选人展示他们过去合作过的东西。”我已经尝试过这种形式，这确实很困难，因为我发现候选人有时甚至会花大量时间分享该公司的背景。

And then also it doesn't really give a sense of, because as you're interviewing from a role, you're getting a ton of context on the actual company and the problem.

而且它并没有真正给人一种感觉，因为当你面试一个职位时，你会得到大量关于实际公司和问题的背景信息。

And so it also is testing for how much did they pick up along the way.

因此，它也在测试他们一路上收获了多少。

Also, would they like working on this area once they join?

另外，他们加入后愿意在这个领域工作吗？

So there are some candidates that sometimes are concerned about the amount of time they would spend on it or say, "This is going to be a big lift."

因此，有些候选人有时会担心他们会花在这上面的时间，或者说，“这将是一个很大的提升。”

Melissa Tan: And definitely mindful of that.

Melissa Tan：绝对要注意这一点。

I think the main thing though is it is actually in the candidate's best interest to kind of understand what they're going to work on and start to understand,

我认为最重要的是，了解他们将要做什么并开始理解实际上符合候选人的最大利益，

Melissa Tan: For example, there are some candidates that have gone through the far through process and haven't worked in the Webflow product very much.

Melissa Tan：例如，有些候选人已经经历了漫长的流程，但并没有在 Webflow 产品中工作太多。

And I always think that's an interesting flag because if you aren't in the product a lot, you're not going to get good context on whether you like it or not.

我一直认为这是一个有趣的标志，因为如果你不经常使用该产品，你就无法了解你是否喜欢它。

And so I actually think it's almost even in the best interest of the candidate to go much deeper.

所以我实际上认为进一步深入几乎也符合候选人的最佳利益。

Lenny: I could spend another hour talking about interview strategy, but I want to make sure we have time for the growth team stuff.

莱尼：我可以再花一个小时讨论面试策略，但我想确保我们有时间讨论增长团队的事情。

So let's transition to that.

那么让我们过渡到这一点。

And my first question here is you've worked with a lot of different teams, a lot of different companies on helping them figure out their growth strategy, hiring their growth teams, just kind of figuring out growth.

我的第一个问题是，您曾与许多不同的团队、许多不同的公司合作，帮助他们制定增长战略，雇用他们的增长团队，只是想办法实现增长。

I'm curious what the most common pitfalls and mistakes you've seen across companies trying to figure out growth and build growth teams.

我很好奇您在试图找出增长和建立增长团队的公司中看到的最常见的陷阱和错误是什么。

Melissa Tan: One of the most common pitfalls I'd say is not having, and I've alluded to this, not having a sense of the big picture from the start and not being strategic about what your go-to market strategy is going to be.

Melissa Tan：我想说的最常见的陷阱之一是没有，我已经提到过这一点，从一开始就没有大局观，也没有对你的市场进入策略有战略性的认识。

Also, what is your pricing and packaging going to look like?

另外，你们的定价和包装会是什么样子？

So I wrote actually an article for the YC blog a few years ago with Abby who was on my team at Dropbox about this because I felt like even at Dropbox, I mean it's a great thing.

因此，几年前，我与 Dropbox 团队中的 Abby 一起为 YC 博客写了一篇关于此问题的文章，因为我觉得即使在 Dropbox，我的意思是这是一件很棒的事情。

We were haphazardly finding amazing things.

我们偶然发现了令人惊奇的事情。

We had a freemium consumer product.

我们有一个免费增值的消费产品。

Then we realized people wanted a Teams product, so we built a Teams product, but we never created that whole blueprint of what should it look like and what are the different connection points across consumer business?

然后我们意识到人们想要一款 Teams 产品，因此我们构建了一款 Teams 产品，但我们从未创建过完整的蓝图，说明它应该是什么样子以及消费者业务中的不同连接点是什么？

What should our model look like?

我们的模型应该是什么样子？

I've also seen companies that maybe weren't intentional enough about pricing from the start, and so thinking about what is the value metric?

我还看到有些公司从一开始就没有足够的意识来定价，因此思考价值指标是什么？

Melissa Tan: And then they've already have massive scale and then they're rethinking their pricing.

Melissa Tan：然后他们已经拥有了巨大的规模，然后他们正在重新考虑他们的定价。

That's actually quite a big headache to actually think about, okay, how do we grandfather users?

这实际上是一个相当令人头痛的问题，好吧，我们如何为用户提供祖父服务？

How do we bring the legacy customers onto our new pricing?

我们如何让老客户接受我们的新定价？

And so thinking about your pricing from the start is important thing might go to market from the start is important.

因此，从一开始就考虑定价很重要，从一开始就进入市场也很重要。

The other thing I have seen a lot is just like, again, this goes back to learning from Dropbox is the execution folks taking a class or reading a lot about growth and trying to do the same thing and not really actually starting from first let's look at our data.

我经常看到的另一件事就像，这又回到了从 Dropbox 学习的过程中，执行人员参加了课程或阅读了大量有关增长的内容，并尝试做同样的事情，而不是真正从一开始就让我们看看我们的数据。

Let's talk to our customers.

让我们和我们的客户谈谈。

What do we think are the biggest hypotheses?

我们认为最大的假设是什么？

And starting your experiments based on your own data and right-sizing the experiment.

并根据您自己的数据开始实验并调整实验规模。

Melissa Tan: I think sometimes teams are experimenting on things that are too small, that aren't going to move the needle because they heard it was really successful company X, but that company X might be a Dropbox where every 0.5% improvement in conversion makes a difference, but if you're early stage doesn't matter and you need to actually think bigger.

Melissa Tan：我认为有时团队会尝试一些太小的东西，这些东西不会产生任何影响，因为他们听说 X 公司确实很成功，但是 X 公司可能是 Dropbox，转化率每提高 0.5% 就会产生影响，但如果你处于早期阶段并不重要，你需要真正考虑更大的问题。

The other thing is the opposite problem, redoing a whole thing but not having a hypothesis, this was an early mistake I made at Dropbox where I redid the checkout page to something that I thought was better UX, but then I changed so many different components that even when it failed, it was unclear why it failed.

另一件事是相反的问题，重做整个事情但没有假设，这是我在 Dropbox 犯的一个早期错误，我将结帐页面重新设计为我认为更好的用户体验，但后来我更改了很多不同的组件，即使它失败了，也不清楚为什么失败。

So really distilling it to hypotheses.

所以真正将其提炼为假设。

Melissa Tan: And then the last thing I would say is figuring out what I call the flying formation of how the different growth teams will work with other companies.

Melissa Tan：我要说的最后一件事是弄清楚不同增长团队如何与其他公司合作的飞行编队。

And again, I alluded to this, but growth shouldn't feel like it's a layer on top.

我再次提到了这一点，但增长不应该感觉像是在上面的一层。

And a lot of the things that are tricky early on is figuring out how you work with other teams.

早期很多棘手的事情是弄清楚如何与其他团队合作。

I think the best or the ideal way to work is to have growth infuse in the company.

我认为最好或最理想的工作方式是让公司充满成长。

And so an example here is often the growth team is going to be potentially the closest to the user.

因此，这里的一个例子是，增长团队通常可能是最接近用户的。

Melissa Tan: They're going to get a lot of feedback.

Melissa Tan：他们会得到很多反馈。

They're going to hear directly from the user.

他们将直接听到用户的声音。

As a growth team, I think one of the big values that we can have is actually giving that feedback back to other teams at the company.

作为一个成长团队，我认为我们可以拥有的最大价值之一实际上是将反馈反馈给公司的其他团队。

And so even as a growth team, can we help inform the product roadmap?

因此，即使作为增长团队，我们可以帮助制定产品路线图吗？

Also on the reverse, thinking about as PMs, how can PMs be more growth oriented as well?

另一方面，作为 PM，PM 如何才能更加注重成长？

Lenny: I like this term flying formation.

莱尼：我喜欢飞行编队这个词。

I've never heard of this before.

我以前从未听说过这个。

What is that exactly again?

那到底是什么？

Is that just how growth is integrated within the company?

这就是公司内部整合增长的方式吗？

Melissa Tan: Yeah, I guess flying formation essentially, I don't know where it comes from.

Melissa Tan：是的，我想本质上是飞行编队，我不知道它来自哪里。

I guess maybe it's a military term or something.

我想这可能是一个军事术语什么的。

Your finger.

你的手指。

Lenny: I can say that.

莱尼：我可以这么说。

Yeah, like the Blue Angels

是的，就像蓝天使一样

Melissa Tan: Yeah.

梅丽莎·谭：是的。

I think of flying formation as how do we work together across teams.

我认为飞行编队是我们如何跨团队合作。

You also can think of it as a DACI too, driver accountable, contribute informed.

您也可以将其视为 DACI，驱动程序负责，贡献信息。

I think sometimes when you don't know how you're going to work together, you end up stepping over each other's toes.

我认为有时候，当你们不知道如何一起工作时，你们最终会踩到对方的脚趾。

You're unclear.

你说不清楚。

Who was the decision maker here?

谁是这里的决策者？

Who did we need to work with?

我们需要与谁合作？

At what point in the journey?

在旅程的哪个阶段？

And so the flying formation, what I think it is, is part of it is a DACI of what are the different roles?

我认为飞行编队是 DACI 的一部分，有哪些不同的角色？

Lenny: Can you define that actually?

莱尼：你能具体定义一下吗？

Because a lot of people probably won't know that term.

因为很多人可能不知道这个词。

Melissa Tan: A DACI is a framework to think about the different roles on the team on a project or an area.

Melissa Tan：DACI 是一个框架，用于考虑团队在项目或区域中的不同角色。

So D stands for Driver.

所以D代表Driver。

This is the person driving the project.

这是该项目的推动者。

A is Accountable, this is the person that's ultimately accountable and is often the final decision maker if there's any open questions.

A 是负责人，这是最终负责的人，如果有任何悬而未决的问题，通常是最终决策者。

C is Contributor, these are all the different teams that are going to contribute.

C 是贡献者，这些都是要做出贡献的不同团队。

And then I is informed.

然后我就被告知了。

These are the people that need to be informed, but they're not directly contributing.

这些人需要被告知，但他们并没有直接做出贡献。

They're not a decision maker and part of the project.

他们不是决策者，也不是项目的一部分。

Melissa Tan: And so it's a nice simple framework for when you are working across teams and it needs to be clear who is in what role.

Melissa Tan：因此，当您跨团队工作并且需要明确谁担任什么角色时，这是一个很好的简单框架。

And the area that tends to be the most confusing can be the accountable and who the decision maker is.

而最容易令人困惑的领域可能是负责人和决策者是谁。

It can be easy to have lots of teams and then it's unclear how do we get to a decision ultimately and who should make that decision.

很容易有很多团队，但我们不清楚最终如何做出决定以及谁应该做出该决定。

And that person should often be the person that has the most context or is ultimately responsible.

这个人通常应该是最有背景或最终负责的人。

Melissa Tan: And so I think the flying formation has this DACI.

Melissa Tan：所以我认为飞行编队有这种 DACI。

I often also put operating rhythms in it, so it's clear what is happening at what point.

我经常也会在其中加入操作节奏，这样什么时候发生了什么就一目了然。

And so we created a flying formation when we were first starting the growth team at Webflow and we were trying to figure out how does product growth work with product, how does product growth work with growth marketing?

因此，当我们第一次在 Webflow 组建增长团队时，我们创建了一个飞行队形，我们试图弄清楚产品增长如何与产品相结合，产品增长如何与增长营销相结合？

What are the different cadences that each team has?

每个团队有哪些不同的节奏？

And so very tactically we put a doc together to say, okay, product growth is accountable for all the metrics downstream of signups.

因此，我们从战术上整理了一份文档，说，好吧，产品增长对注册下游的所有指标负责。

Growth marketing is accountable for signups.

增长营销负责注册。

They're also driving or have goals around CAC, their customer acquisition costs, and these are the different metrics everyone owns.

他们还围绕 CAC、客户获取成本来推动或制定目标，这些是每个人都拥有的不同指标。

Melissa Tan: We have a weekly meeting where we look at the metrics together.

Melissa Tan：我们每周举行一次会议，一起研究指标。

We also will do updates around the room to talk about initiatives and identify areas we want to work with.

我们还将在房间内进行更新，讨论倡议并确定我们想要合作的领域。

And then we also think through quarterly planning where we're each identifying projects that we're driving.

然后我们还通过季度计划来思考，我们每个人都在其中确定我们正在推动的项目。

There's some projects that we might also work on together.

我们也可能会一起合作一些项目。

And so it's essentially that meeting cadence that you're going to have the operating rhythms.

因此，从本质上讲，会议节奏决定了您的运营节奏。

That's essentially how I think about a flying formation.

这基本上就是我对飞行编队的看法。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

That would make a great blog post.

这将成为一篇很棒的博客文章。

By the way, if you're looking for something to write an example of your actual client formation Webflow, I think people would love that.

顺便说一句，如果您正在寻找一些东西来编写实际客户端形成 Webflow 的示例，我认为人们会喜欢它。

Lenny: One kind of tangent that I wanted to touch on is there's this trend of product teams owning revenue.

莱尼：我想谈的一个切线是产品团队拥有收入的趋势。

Elena talked about this on a recent podcast.

埃琳娜在最近的播客中谈到了这一点。

You have a perspective on should product growth teams own revenue and have revenue numbers as their goals or not?

您对产品增长团队是否应该拥有收入并以收入数字作为目标有什么看法？

Melissa Tan: Yeah, really it depends on the company and what product growth is driving.

Melissa Tan：是的，这确实取决于公司以及产品增长的推动力。

I've always, in the companies I was at and actually even the companies I advise, the product growth team owns revenue, so it's not always the case.

我一直在我所在的公司，甚至是我所建议的公司中，产品增长团队拥有收入，所以情况并非总是如此。

I've actually seen revenue owned by marketing.

我实际上看到过营销带来的收入。

So marketing makes sense if it's more top of funnel growth.

因此，如果营销更处于漏斗增长的顶端，那么营销就有意义。

I've also seen it, this is an interesting one, by finance actually.

我也看到了，这是一篇有趣的文章，实际上是金融方面的。

This is usually early in the company.

这通常是在公司的早期。

Melissa Tan: So early at Canva, it was owned by finance and that's because finance had a view on everything happening in the business and would actually be maybe advising other teams on, "Hey, our conversion rates could improve, we need to do X." Or we're not driving signups and customers efficiently, but over time it doesn't really sit in finance.

Melissa Tan：在 Canva 的早期，它是由财务部拥有的，这是因为财务部对业务中发生的一切都有看法，实际上可能会向其他团队提供建议，“嘿，我们的转化率可以提高，我们需要做 X。”或者我们没有有效地推动注册和客户，但随着时间的推移，它并没有真正融入到财务中。

That has evolved and then now sits under the person that is driving product growth in product.

它已经发展起来，现在位于推动产品增长的人的领导下。

So I have seen it more often than not being owned by product.

所以我经常看到它被产品所拥有。

Our team at Dropbox moved a ton actually.

事实上，我们 Dropbox 的团队搬迁了很多。

We started marketing.

我们开始营销。

We actually then report into the revenue org with sales, and then we finally moved into product because we realized so much of our revenue was that product growth motion happening in the product that we felt it was important that that product team owned revenue.

实际上，我们然后向收入组织报告销售情况，然后我们最终进入产品领域，因为我们意识到我们的大部分收入来自于产品中发生的产品增长运动，我们认为产品团队拥有收入非常重要。

Lenny: A lot of the things you're talking about are based in how growth starts at a company.

莱尼：你谈论的很多事情都是基于公司如何开始增长的。

I imagine one of the most common questions you get is, how do I start to invest in growth?

我想您最常见的问题之一是，我如何开始投资于增长？

How do I hire my first growth person?

我如何聘请我的第一位成长人员？

How do I build a team around them?

我如何围绕他们建立一个团队？

It's one of the most common questions I get.

这是我收到的最常见的问题之一。

So let's spend a little time here.

那么让我们在这里花一点时间吧。

What is your advice to founders that are just starting to think about building their initial growth team and how to approach that to look for initially and kind of think about that longer term?

对于那些刚刚开始考虑建立初始增长团队的创始人，以及如何初步寻找并考虑更长期的团队，您有什么建议？

Melissa Tan: I get this question a lot as well.

Melissa Tan：我也经常被问到这个问题。

I'd say initially when a company's starting out, the goal is getting to product market fit and figuring out who their ideal customer profile is, like their ICP.

我想说，公司刚起步时，目标是适应产品市场并找出他们理想的客户档案，比如他们的 ICP。

And at this point, I think everyone at the company should be thinking about growth.

在这一点上，我认为公司的每个人都应该考虑增长。

They're finding their first few design partners that they will co-create the product with.

他们正在寻找最初的几个设计合作伙伴，共同开发产品。

They're figuring out who is their product resonating with, who is maybe also the decision maker in purchasing the product.

他们正在弄清楚他们的产品能引起谁的共鸣，谁也可能是购买该产品的决策者。

And they're figuring out, do we want kind of a bottom up product led motion?

他们正在弄清楚，我们是否想要一种自下而上的产品主导运动？

Are we going to lean more heavily into sales?

我们是否会更加注重销售？

Are we going to do both?

我们要两者都做吗？

Melissa Tan: After you reach product market fit and you're starting to get your first few customers, the first growth per person I see more often than not isn't someone driving acquisition.

Melissa Tan：当你达到产品市场契合度并开始获得最初的几个客户后，我看到的第一个增长往往不是推动收购的人。

You need to find your first a thousand or thousands of customers and you need to do it at scale.

您需要找到第一批一千或数千名客户，并且需要大规模地进行。

And so if that is the focus of the company, typically what I would recommend is somebody that they don't need to be an expert, but ideally they understand maybe one or two channels well and that they're the channels that you have hypothesis, you will find traction in.

因此，如果这是公司的重点，通常我会推荐的是他们不需要成为专家的人，但理想情况下他们可能很好地了解一两个渠道，并且他们是你假设的渠道，你会发现吸引力。

Melissa Tan: And I see this person a little bit like a portfolio manager, right?

Melissa Tan：我认为这个人有点像投资组合经理，对吗？

Because you're trying to figure out ...

因为你想弄清楚...

Usually companies don't have many channels that are split evenly.

通常公司不会有很多平均分配的渠道。

They find one or two that really work and make up like it's 80/20 rule.

他们找到一两个真正有效的方法，并像 80/20 规则一样进行弥补。

It makes us up 80% of where the signups are coming from and this portfolio manager is testing different things out.

它使我们占注册来源的 80%，而这位投资组合经理正在测试不同的东西。

Even you could leverage agencies.

即使你也可以利用代理机构。

There are a lot of agencies out there for SEO, for paid marketing, et cetera, but they are smart enough to define, is this working?

有很多针对 SEO、付费营销等的机构，但他们足够聪明来定义，这有效吗？

How do I do it at scale?

我如何大规模地做到这一点？

You also want to make sure it's quality signups that are actually monetizable.

您还想确保高质量的注册确实可以货币化。

Melissa Tan: And so that is a role typically if you're hiring an acquisition of that first growth person.

梅丽莎·谭（Melissa Tan）：如果你要招聘收购后的第一名成长型人才，那么这就是一个典型的角色。

And then the other two areas to focus early on, but I don't think you need a dedicated person for are activation.

然后尽早关注的其他两个领域是激活，但我认为您不需要专门的人。

You want to make sure as you're pouring leads into the top of funnel, you're activating users.

您需要确保当您将潜在客户注入渠道顶部时，您正在激活用户。

And here I don't think you actually need to do AB testing.

在这里我认为你实际上不需要进行 AB 测试。

Your volume isn't probably going to be strong enough.

您的音量可能不够强。

I think even just finding five individuals that are part of your target audience, just doing user testing, set up a Zoom, watch them onboard onto the product and have them talk out loud.

我认为即使只是找到五个属于目标受众的人，只是进行用户测试，设置 Zoom，观看他们使用产品并让他们大声说话。

You'll fight a lot and you can also just take best practices of onboarding checklists, et cetera.

你会经历很多争吵，你也可以采取入职清单等最佳实践。

So activation and then I've said this a lot, but pricing and packaging, really thinking about pricing, but I don't think that needs to be a dedicated person.

所以激活然后我已经说了很多，但是定价和包装，真正考虑定价，但我认为不需要一个专门的人。

Lenny: What kind of profile have you found to be most successful for this sort of person?

莱尼：您认为什么样的个人资料对于这类人来说最成功？

Some people will look for like, I want to hire Melissa and let's just go big.

有些人会说，我想雇用梅丽莎，让我们做大做强。

The best person I can find and have them own this versus someone that's just new from school that's going to figure it out and I guess they're somewhere in the middle.

我能找到的最好的人，并让他们拥有这个，而不是刚从学校毕业的人，他们会解决这个问题，我猜他们处于中间的某个地方。

What do you find that's best for that first hire?

您认为最适合第一个员工的是什么？

Melissa Tan: It really depends on the current makeup of the team.

Melissa Tan：这实际上取决于团队目前的构成。

How much do the founders themselves or the current team, how much of an interest do they have in growth?

创始人本人或当前团队对增长有多少兴趣？

If they have an interest in growth and it's more about finding someone to execute, I think it's finding someone that's a bit earlier in their career potentially that is just a strong first principles thinker.

如果他们对成长感兴趣，并且更多的是寻找一个可以执行的人，我认为寻找一个职业生涯较早的人可能只是一个强大的第一原则思考者。

I think there's hit or miss on, I'm a former consultant, so I used to always say find a former consultant.

我认为这是偶然的，我是一名前顾问，所以我过去总是说找一位前顾问。

I do think there can be hit or miss and there is some value in folks that actually understand acquisition and have done it before and so maybe have figured out certain channels.

我确实认为这可能是偶然的，对于那些真正了解收购并以前做过的人来说是有一定价值的，所以也许已经找到了某些渠道。

Melissa Tan: So I think you either go for someone that's done acquisition before, maybe they're a little bit early in their career, so they have this great growth mindset, but make sure they're a first principles thinker.

Melissa Tan：所以我认为你要么去找以前做过收购的人，也许他们在职业生涯中还处于早期阶段，所以他们有很好的成长心态，但要确保他们是第一原则的思考者。

The other option is find just a really smart person early in their career, have them take up Reforge class, have them soak up everything, and then the other option of hiring someone more experienced.

另一种选择是在职业生涯早期找到一个非常聪明的人，让他们参加重铸课程，让他们吸收一切，然后另一种选择是雇用更有经验的人。

I think it really depends on if you want that person to take on a lot more and be almost part of your founding team.

我认为这实际上取决于你是否希望那个人承担更多责任并几乎成为你创始团队的一部分。

And do you want to find someone that is going to join your leadership team?

您想找到一个愿意加入您的领导团队的人吗？

Melissa Tan: The other option I guess is you could also just bring on an advisor and that advisor is someone that's not full time.

Melissa Tan：我想另一个选择是你也可以聘请一名顾问，而该顾问不是全职的。

It can even guide if you hire someone that's a bit earlier, guide that person and that is a really good combination.

如果你雇佣了一个早一点的人，它甚至可以为你提供指导，指导那个人，这是一个非常好的组合。

And so it really depends on the context, who's also on the current team and who you want to bring into.

因此，这实际上取决于具体情况，谁也在当前团队中以及您想引入谁。

Are you looking for an actual leader that's going to scale with the company or are you not ready quite yet for that?

您是否正在寻找一位能够与公司一起扩展的真正领导者，或者您还没有准备好吗？

Lenny: What about in terms of their skillset?

Lenny：他们的技能怎么样？

I imagine if you're kind of feeling like paid growth is going to be your main acquisition channel, you probably want to find someone that's really good at that versus it might be a virality, product led growth stuff, then you want to find maybe a product range of person.

我想，如果你感觉付费增长将成为你的主要获取渠道，你可能想找到真正擅长这方面的人，而不是病毒式传播、产品主导的增长，那么你可能想找到一个产品范围广泛的人。

How much weight do you put into that skillset in that first hire?

在第一次招聘时，你对这项技能投入了多少重视？

Melissa Tan: I actually think it's less about expertise in skillset, if that makes sense.

Melissa Tan：实际上，我认为这与技能方面的专业知识无关，如果这有意义的话。

And more there a ability to, again, I think of it like a portfolio manager.

而且我再次将其视为投资组合经理的能力。

So this is more on the growth marketing side and bringing in acquisition.

所以这更多的是增长营销方面和引进收购。

They are managing a portfolio and they're trying to figure out what works.

他们正在管理一个投资组合，并试图找出有效的方法。

I actually think you need to find someone that's analytical for this role, but that also understands things like who is the user?

我实际上认为你需要找到一个能够胜任这个角色的分析人员，但同时也了解诸如用户是谁？

They're really creative in finding the user.

他们在寻找用户方面非常有创意。

And so it's actually looking for attributes but not expertise.

所以它实际上是在寻找属性而不是专业知识。

Melissa Tan: I actually think the more expertise someone has, the more it actually can lead to a false precision and then thinking they know what they're going to do.

Melissa Tan：实际上，我认为一个人拥有的专业知识越多，就越可能导致错误的精确性，然后认为他们知道自己要做什么。

And especially, I don't think you actually need paid marketing expertise until much later when you're starting to think about incrementality or you're managing all these campaigns.

特别是，我认为直到很久以后，当您开始考虑增量或管理所有这些营销活动时，您才真正需要付费营销专业知识。

I actually think the expertise is more important later.

我其实觉得以后专业知识更重要。

And then similarly on product growth, I actually think product growth is not higher till much later.

同样，在产品增长方面，我实际上认为产品增长要到很久以后才会更高。

A lot of early stage companies don't even have a product manager until later.

很多早期公司甚至后来才设立产品经理。

And so I find that a growth product person isn't until much later down the road.

所以我发现成长型产品人员要到很晚的时候才会出现。

Lenny: Just a couple more questions.

莱尼：还有几个问题。

One is, you mentioned that it sometimes makes sense to bring on an advisor.

一是，您提到有时聘请顾问是有意义的。

I know sometimes companies have a bad time with advisors that just don't provide much value and they're giving equity.

我知道有时公司与顾问的相处会很糟糕，因为顾问不能提供太多价值，而他们却提供股权。

Other times it's transformative.

其他时候它是变革性的。

Some of the stories you've shared, when is it appropriate to hire an advisor and is there any, I guess advice for what to look for in a growth advisor at this early stage, especially?

您分享的一些故事，什么时候适合聘请顾问，有什么建议，我想特别是在这个早期阶段应该寻找成长顾问的建议？

Melissa Tan: I would add an advisor if there is probably a knowledge gap on the team is I would say.

Melissa Tan：如果团队中可能存在知识差距，我会添加一名顾问。

And their advisors come in so many different forms too, and everyone does it slightly differently.

他们的顾问也有多种不同的形式，每个人的做法都略有不同。

For some folks, it's a monthly call for other times, especially when I'm full-time advising, I'll have weekly calls.

对于某些人来说，其他时间是每月一次的电话，特别是当我全职提供咨询时，我每周都会打一次电话。

I'll even join some team meetings.

我什至会参加一些团队会议。

I'll look at mocks.

我会看看模拟。

And so everyone does it slightly differently.

所以每个人的做法都略有不同。

And so I think it depends on what you're looking for.

所以我认为这取决于你在寻找什么。

I would definitely say that even getting to know the individual and making sure you're on the same page on what you're looking for and what the goals are.

我肯定会说，甚至要了解这个人，并确保你们在寻找什么和目标上达成一致。

And then what I've done in the past too is initially set up a shorter engagement, like a quarter long engagement and then decide if you want to go longer.

然后我过去所做的也是最初设定一个较短的约定，比如四分之一长的约定，然后决定是否想要更长的时间。

Melissa Tan: And I also think it's fine to, let's say you have an advisor agreement, you're not getting value to basically part ways.

Melissa Tan：我也认为，假设你有一份顾问协议，你基本上不会因为分道扬镳而获得价值。

If it's not, you're not finding value.

如果不是，你就没有发现价值。

I think every advisor wants to make sure they're adding value.

我认为每个顾问都希望确保他们能够增加价值。

So I definitely think to summarize, being really explicit on what advice you're looking for and making sure you're on the same page of what you want.

因此，我绝对想总结一下，非常明确地说明您正在寻找什么建议，并确保您与您想要的内容达成一致。

And then also set up a try before you buy if you want to do a quarter long engagement first.

如果您想先进行四分之一的订婚，那么在购买前也可以先尝试一下。

And knowing you can always part ways if it's not a fit even before that period of time.

并且知道，即使在那段时间之前，如果不合适，您也可以随时分手。

Lenny: Last question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前的最后一个问题。

You've brought up this concept of first principles thinking.

您提出了第一原理思维的概念。

I'm curious how you measure that and how you get a sense of, is this person strong at first principles thinking?

我很好奇你如何衡量这一点以及如何了解这个人的第一原则思维能力强吗？

Melissa Tan: It's definitely a word I use a lot.

Melissa Tan：这绝对是我经常使用的一个词。

First principles thinking, I think of it as you are not using a set framework and set formula, but you're creating your own based on the context that you're getting.

第一原则思维，我认为这是因为您没有使用固定的框架和固定的公式，而是根据您所获得的上下文创建自己的框架和公式。

And so when I think about first principles thinking often it is knowing what questions to ask so that you can start forming a mental model.

因此，当我思考第一原则时，思考通常是知道要问什么问题，以便你可以开始形成心理模型。

And then it is actually starting to form that mental model and then knowing to evolve it and knowing when it's not working and really coming from a place of curiosity of is this really working?

然后它实际上开始形成那种心理模型，然后知道如何发展它，知道它何时不起作用，并且真正来自于好奇这真的起作用吗？

This is something that I'm known for on my team as well, which is I ask tons of questions, but it doesn't come from a place of wanting to show that I'm asking good questions or anything that comes from a place of trying to solve the problem and making sure that we're always solving the problem at hand, making sure we're doing the right things.

这也是我在团队中众所周知的一点，那就是我问了很多问题，但这并不是出于想要表明我提出了好问题的地方，也不是出于试图解决问题并确保我们始终解决手头问题的地方，确保我们在做正确的事情。

Melissa Tan: If there's new information, do we actually still want to do it this way?

Melissa Tan：如果有新的信息，我们真的还想这样做吗？

And so I think first principles thinking is often about asking questions and then creating your own framework.

因此，我认为首要原则思考通常是提出问题，然后创建自己的框架。

That's how I would define it.

我就是这样定义它的。

And it's maybe another way to describe it is critical thinking.

这也许是批判性思维的另一种描述方式。

It's like you're able to think very critically, and I think it's important to, at least for me, create a culture where that's okay.

就像你能够非常批判性地思考一样，我认为至少对我来说，创造一种可以进行批判性思考的文化很重要。

I think the moment you have a culture where people aren't asking questions aren't constantly revisiting their work, that's when you're not maybe pushing yourself to do your best work.

我认为，当你的文化中人们不问问题，不不断地重新审视他们的工作时，你就可能不会强迫自己做到最好。

And I think it also just creates a fun environment where we're like, "Oh yeah, why are we doing this?" And really leading with your curiosity.

我认为这也创造了一个有趣的环境，我们会想，“哦，是的，我们为什么要这样做？”并真正以你的好奇心为主导。

Lenny: Is there an example of a person or moment or question that comes to mind of this is an epitome of a first principles thinker moment or question or a way of approaching something?

莱尼：是否有一个人、时刻或问题的例子出现在我的脑海中，这是第一原理思想家时刻或问题的缩影，或者是处理某事的方式？

Melissa Tan: My aha moment of the value of first principles thinking was when I was at Dropbox and we had the most unconventional people on our initial sales team.

Melissa Tan：当我在 Dropbox 工作时，我对第一原则思维的价值感到恍然大悟，当时我们最初的销售团队中有最非传统的人员。

Dropbox was known for this.

Dropbox 以此而闻名。

We would hire a ton of really smart people that had never done sales and had them do sales.

我们会雇佣大量从未做过销售的非常聪明的人，并让他们做销售。

There were a lot of disadvantages to that, I think.

我认为这样做有很多缺点。

We were figuring a lot of things out.

我们正在弄清楚很多事情。

Maybe we should have split, had a few people that knew sales better and a combo of both.

也许我们应该分开，聘请一些更了解销售的人，然后将两者结合起来。

But I do think it led to a ton of innovation.

但我确实认为这带来了大量的创新。

Even I actually started on the sales team, this is a fun fact.

即使我实际上是从销售团队开始的，这也是一个有趣的事实。

I used to answer the 1-800 number at Dropbox, and if you go to Dropbox's website, you see a chat level.

我曾经在 Dropbox 接听 1-800 号码，如果您访问 Dropbox 的网站，您会看到聊天级别。

I used to also do that role, and so I think that what we got from that was that's how we got our very innovative go-to-market motions.

我曾经也担任过这个角色，所以我认为我们从中得到的就是我们如何获得非常创新的上市动议。

Melissa Tan: That also gave a ton of people, 'cause a lot of those people then moved into different functions at the company.

Melissa Tan：这也给了很多人，因为其中很多人后来调到了公司的不同职能部门。

They had all this context on who the user was.

他们拥有关于用户是谁的所有背景信息。

They had talked to so many different users at that point, and that's actually what helped me a lot when I moved into growth is I had all that context and I learned from that going back to first principles thinking that if you take people that are just super smart, they've never done it before, one advantage of that is they can innovate because I think they come in with, "I don't know anything.

当时他们已经与很多不同的用户进行了交谈，这实际上对我的成长有很大帮助，因为我拥有所有这些背景，我从中学到了回到第一原则的想法，如果你让那些非常聪明的人，他们以前从未这样做过，这样做的一个优点是他们可以创新，因为我认为他们进来时，“我什么都不知道。

Let me just figure this out." Versus someone that think they know all the answers, limits you into what you are going to do.

让我来解决这个问题。”与那些认为自己知道所有答案的人相比，他们限制了你要做的事情。

And so my aha moment was really at Dropbox seeing so many times people that had never done these things and then seeing so much innovation come as a result of that.

所以我的顿悟时刻真的是在 Dropbox 看到很多次从未做过这些事情的人，然后看到由此带来的如此多的创新。

Lenny: That is an awesome story.

莱尼：那是一个很棒的故事。

Is there anything else you wanted to share or touch on before we get to or very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始或非常令人兴奋的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或谈及的吗？

Melissa Tan: I think that's it.

梅丽莎·谭：我想就是这样。

I wanted to make sure, I know I talked a lot about developing people, so thank all the people that have helped develop me in my career and then especially thank all the folks that I've worked with and my team, especially the team at Webflow and particularly wanted to make sure to thank [Xing Lin 01:10:14], Rory Davidson and [Jo Wang01:10:16] who joined me from previous companies to Webflow.

我想确定一下，我知道我谈论了很多关于培养人才的问题，所以感谢所有在我的职业生涯中帮助我发展的人，然后特别感谢所有与我一起工作过的人和我的团队，特别是 Webflow 的团队，特别要感谢 [Xing Lin 01:10:14]、Rory Davidson 和 [Jo Wang01:10:16]，他们从以前的公司加入到 Webflow。

Lenny: Shoutouts.

莱尼：大声喊叫。

Well, with that, Melissa, we have reached our very exciting lightning ground.

好吧，梅丽莎，我们已经到达了非常令人兴奋的闪电之地。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Melissa Tan: The first one is Leaders Eat Last.

Melissa Tan：第一个是领导者吃到最后。

I really like that leadership book by Simon Sinek.

我真的很喜欢西蒙·斯内克（Simon Sinek）写的那本关于领导力的书。

Also two non-career related books is The Untethered Soul.

另外两本与职业无关的书是《不受束缚的灵魂》。

It really has taught me a lot about being present and then also the Four Agreements, which is a very short and easy read, but good principles to live by.

它确实教会了我很多关于活在当下的知识，还有《四项协议》，这是一个非常简短易读的内容，但却是值得遵守的良好原则。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Melissa Tan: This one isn't super recent, but Winning Time on HBO.

Melissa Tan：这不是最近的一部，而是 HBO 的《Winning Time》。

It's about the LA Lakers during the '80s and the Showtime era.

这是关于 80 年代和 Showtime 时代的洛杉矶湖人队的故事。

I'm originally from LA and grew up a Lakers fan, so it's a fun watch for me and a nice escape.

我来自洛杉矶，从小就是湖人队球迷，所以这对我来说是一款有趣的手表，也是一次不错的逃离。

Lenny: You'll love a new movie I just watched last night called Air, which is about how Nike got Michael Jordan signed.

莱尼：你会喜欢我昨晚刚看了一部叫《Air》的新电影，这部电影是关于耐克如何签下迈克尔·乔丹的。

And it's similar vibes to that show.

而且和那个节目的氛围很相似。

Melissa Tan: Yes, yes.

梅丽莎·谭：是的，是的。

I actually just watched that recently too.

其实我也是最近才看的。

Melissa Tan: That's a good one too.

Melissa Tan：这也是一件好事。

Yeah, I've watched all those basketball.

是的，我看过所有那些篮球比赛。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

I also grew up in LA.

我也在洛杉矶长大。

Also a huge Laker fan from-

也是湖人队的铁杆球迷——

Lenny: From before.

莱尼：从以前开始。

Next question, what's a favorite interview question you like to ask?

下一个问题，您最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Melissa Tan: For me, it's not a question, but it's that stage of preparing before the presentation and getting a sense for what it's like to work with each other.

Melissa Tan：对我来说，这不是一个问题，而是在演示之前进行准备并了解彼此合作的感觉的阶段。

I think that has been one of the best ways for me to get signal.

我认为这是我获取信号的最佳方式之一。

Melissa Tan: Yes.

梅丽莎·谭：是的。

So it's essentially that prep call before I ask them to do a presentation and going through the presentation together and working together on refining it.

因此，这本质上是在我要求他们做演示之前的准备电话，一起浏览演示并共同完善它。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We already talked about that, so we'll move on.

我们已经讨论过了，所以我们继续。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love?

您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Melissa Tan: I feel like everyone's saying this, but ChatGPT.

Melissa Tan：我觉得每个人都这么说，但 ChatGPT 除外。

I feel like it has really changed everything.

我觉得它真的改变了一切。

There's so many interesting ways to use it.

有很多有趣的方法来使用它。

My team at Webflow right now is also starting to think about incorporating AI into the product, and so yeah, I just think that is ...

我在 Webflow 的团队现在也开始考虑将人工智能融入到产品中，所以是的，我只是认为这是......

Yeah, so many things you can do with it.

是的，你可以用它做很多事情。

Lenny: What is something relatively minor that you've changed in your product development process that has had a big impact on the way that your team executes?

Lenny：您在产品开发过程中进行了哪些相对较小的更改，但对您团队的执行方式产生了重大影响？

Melissa Tan: This one here is what I also spoke about for earlier, which is, I mean, thinking through your DACI.

Melissa Tan：这也是我之前谈到的，我的意思是，通过 DACI 进行思考。

It sounds so simple, but I do think a lot of times teams are thinking through how do they work with other teams?

听起来很简单，但我确实认为很多时候团队都会思考如何与其他团队合作？

Who is driving?

谁在开车？

Who is the decision maker?

谁是决策者？

And so having a DACI, I have found is really helpful.

因此，我发现拥有 DACI 确实很有帮助。

Lenny: Final question, you've been at Webflow for a number of years.

Lenny：最后一个问题，您已经在 Webflow 工作很多年了。

What is a favorite pro tip for using Webflow?

使用 Webflow 时最喜欢的专业技巧是什么？

Melissa Tan: Yeah, I actually have two if that's okay.

Melissa Tan：是的，如果可以的话，我实际上有两个。

Melissa Tan: Yeah, yeah.

梅丽莎·谭：是的，是的。

So one is thing that I've often heard from folks is it's hard to learn Webflow.

我经常从人们那里听到的一件事是学习 Webflow 很难。

And so basically watching our university videos, which is where we teach Webflow while also building the designer, and we actually now enable to have the videos in the product, so you can do them side by side.

因此，基本上观看我们的大学视频，我们在其中教授 Webflow，同时还构建设计器，我们现在实际上可以在产品中包含视频，因此您可以并排进行它们。

And then the other one is our Figma to Webflow plugin, which is you can take a Figma design and then convert it to Webflow, which is a great hack if you already have a design in Figma.

另一个是我们的 Figma 到 Webflow 插件，您可以采用 Figma 设计，然后将其转换为 Webflow，如果您已经在 Figma 中有设计，这是一个很好的技巧。

Lenny: Wow, I did not know that existed.

莱尼：哇，我不知道有这样的东西存在。

That is a really smart idea and feature.

这是一个非常聪明的想法和功能。

Melissa, I could see why people follow you from company to company.

梅丽莎，我明白为什么人们会跟随你从一家公司到另一家公司。

I feel like the companies that are going to get to work with you in this new stage of your life are also very lucky.

我觉得在你人生的新阶段能够与你合作的公司也非常幸运。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?

如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Melissa Tan: Folks can find me on LinkedIn, also on Twitter, Melissamtan, and then how can listeners be helpful to me?

Melissa Tan：人们可以在 LinkedIn、Twitter、Melissamtan 上找到我，那么听众如何为我提供帮助呢？

I mean, I love jamming on things, growth, thinking about leadership and managing, so if any of this resonates, reach out.

我的意思是，我喜欢忙于事情、成长、思考领导力和管理，所以如果其中任何一个引起共鸣，请伸出援手。

I'd love to have a discussion and yeah.

我很乐意进行讨论，是的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Melissa, again, thank you for being here.

梅丽莎，再次感谢您来到这里。

Melissa Tan: Yes, thanks so much, Lenny.

梅丽莎·谭： 是的，非常感谢，莱尼。

This was fun.

这很有趣。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。