The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles

Melissa Perri: Do you want to hire 10,000 product managers and let them all do these things off the side of their desk and then concentrate on strategic work 30% of the time or do you want them concentrating on strategic work majority of the time and then help build a product operations team around them that can create these shared systems and this infrastructure to allow them to work better?

Melissa Perri：你想雇佣 10,000 名产品经理，让他们都在办公桌旁做这些事情，然后将 30% 的时间集中在战略工作上，还是希望他们将大部分时间集中在战略工作上，然后帮助围绕他们建立一个产品运营团队，创建这些共享系统和基础设施，让他们更好地工作？

Lenny: Today, my guests are Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是梅丽莎·佩里和丹尼斯·蒂尔斯。

This is a rare two-guest episode.

这是罕见的两位嘉宾的剧集。

Melissa and Denise are authors of an awesome new book called Product Operations: How Successful Companies Build Better Products at Scale.

梅丽莎和丹尼斯是一本很棒的新书的作者，名为《产品运营：成功的公司如何大规模打造更好的产品》。

Melissa is a legend in the product management community.

梅丽莎是产品管理界的传奇人物。

She's the author of the foundational handbook, Escaping the Build Trap.

她是基础手册《逃离构建陷阱》的作者。

She runs a product management training organization called Produx Labs, teaches product management at Harvard, and has worked with hundreds of companies on their product management function.

她经营着一个名为 Produx Labs 的产品管理培训组织，在哈佛大学教授产品管理，并与数百家公司就其产品管理职能进行了合作。

Denise is a product leader, coach, and consultant helping companies with their product vision, strategy, and execution, and works with Melissa at Produx Labs.

Denise 是一名产品领导者、教练和顾问，帮助公司制定产品愿景、战略和执行，并与 Produx Labs 的 Melissa 合作。

Lenny: In our conversation, we get super deep into the emerging role of product ops.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们非常深入地探讨了产品运营的新兴角色。

As you'll hear in our conversation, over the past few years, this role has gone from almost non-existent to something like half of scaling tech companies with at least one product ops person.

正如您在我们的谈话中听到的那样，在过去的几年里，这个角色已经从几乎不存在变成了大约一半的规模化科技公司至少有一名产品运营人员。

This new role is probably the thing that's most changing in the role of product management.

这个新角色可能是产品管理角色中变化最大的。

After this conversation, I'm convinced it's a great thing.

经过这次谈话，我确信这是一件很棒的事情。

Lenny: We chat about what the role concretely is, how it differs from product management and project management, what to look for in your first product ops hire, how to roll out a product ops function, why product managers shouldn't be afraid of this role and how your life gets significantly better, plus, a case study on how they rolled out product ops function at a large company, and so much more.

Lenny：我们讨论了这个角色的具体含义，它与产品管理和项目管理有何不同，在你的第一个产品运营人员招聘中要寻找什么，如何推出产品运营功能，为什么产品经理不应该害怕这个角色，以及你的生活如何显着改善，此外，还有一个关于他们如何在一家大公司推出产品运营功能的案例研究，等等。

With that, I bring you Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles after a short word from our sponsor.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了梅丽莎·佩里 (Melissa Perri) 和丹尼斯·蒂尔斯 (Denise Tilles)。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers, and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有提出伟大的想法、与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且每天都在忙着救火。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds, and it's all built on Jira, where your engineering team's already working so true collaboration is finally possible.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图，这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Lenny: Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

Lenny：伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导力，甚至是财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch, and it's only $10 a month for you.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何条件，而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: Melissa and Denise, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：梅丽莎和丹尼斯，非常感谢你们来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: You are the second ever guest duo I've had on the podcast.

莱尼：你们是我在播客上的第二位嘉宾组合。

Melissa, this is your second appearance on the podcast, and you two have a new book out, which I have right here.

梅丽莎，这是你第二次出现在播客上，你们两个出了一本新书，我这里就有。

It's called Product Operations: How Successful Companies Build Better Products at Scale.

这就是所谓的“产品运营：成功的公司如何大规模打造更好的产品”。

What I want to do with our time today is to help people fully understand the role of product operations from every direction as much as we can get through in an hour.

我今天想做的就是尽可能在一小时内从各个方向帮助人们充分理解产品运营的作用。

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So first question, just to set a little context on this role, how popular and how common is the role at this point?

那么第一个问题，先简单介绍一下这个角色的背景，目前这个角色有多受欢迎、有多常见？

I did a quick skim of just awesome companies and really successful companies, and every single one of them seems to have a product ops role at this point.

我快速浏览了一些很棒的公司和真正成功的公司，在这一点上，他们中的每一个似乎都扮演着产品运营的角色。

OpenAI, Uber, Stripe, Ramp, Deal, those are just the few that I looked at.

OpenAI、Uber、Stripe、Ramp、Deal，这些只是我看过的少数几个。

Is that what you're seeing?

这就是你所看到的吗？

How should people think about how popular and how common this role has become?

人们应该如何看待这个角色已经变得多么受欢迎和普遍？

Melissa Perri: I think over the last few years, we definitely have seen product operations start booming.

Melissa Perri：我认为在过去几年中，我们确实看到产品运营开始蓬勃发展。

It did originate in a lot of big companies that you mentioned too like Uber.

它确实起源于你也提到过的许多大公司，比如 Uber。

The head of product operations at Uber and the person who started it, Blake Samic, is a case study in our book and he also did it at Stripe and he does it at OpenAI.

Uber 产品运营主管和创始人 Blake Samic 是我们书中的一个案例研究，他也在 Stripe 和 OpenAI 做过这件事。

So it's pretty funny that you mentioned those three because that's Blake right there who did that.

所以你提到这三个人很有趣，因为那是布莱克做的。

We have seen a very good transition from people whispering about product operations, and I know when I wrote my first book, Escaping the Build Trap, in 2018 I mentioned it in there because we had just started doing it at Athenahealth.

我们看到了人们对产品运营的窃窃私语的良好转变，我知道当我在 2018 年写第一本书《逃离构建陷阱》时，我在那里提到了这一点，因为我们刚刚在 Athenahealth 开始这样做。

Melissa Perri: I saw this as a really big issue in trying to make a complete product management function there and especially at scale.

Melissa Perri：我认为这是一个非常大的问题，试图在那里建立一个完整的产品管理功能，特别是在规模上。

We had 365 product teams.

我们有 365 个产品团队。

We were trying to figure out how does this all come together, and product operations for me was a key part of it.

我们试图弄清楚这一切是如何结合在一起的，对我来说，产品运营是其中的关键部分。

So when I had first written it into that book, a lot of people were like, "Oh, what is this thing?

所以当我第一次把它写进那本书时，很多人都说，“哦，这是什么东西？

I think we need it.

我认为我们需要它。

Do we need more?" and that's what got us to start writing this book.

我们还需要更多吗？”这就是我们开始写这本书的原因。

Since then, I've seen a lot more companies coming out and either making more mature product operations teams that started probably before that or actually introducing them now.

从那时起，我看到更多的公司出现，要么建立更成熟的产品运营团队（可能在此之前就开始），要么现在实际上引入它们。

Lenny: I guess maybe thinking about just tech companies, if you had to put a number on some rough percentage of interesting fast-growing, hyper growth, these startups, is there a percentage you'd put on how many of them have a product ops person at this point?

莱尼：我想也许只考虑科技公司，如果你必须对这些初创公司中有趣的快速增长、高速增长的粗略百分比进行统计，那么你是否会计算其中有多少人拥有产品运营人员？

Melissa Perri: We don't have a hard and fast number, I'll say that on this, but we have seen that.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：我们没有一个硬性的数字，我会这么说，但我们已经看到了。

Let's take a sampling of maybe something that I know better.

让我们选取一些我更了解的样本。

When I teach CPO accelerator, when I teach people in these cohorts, out of the 20, 25 people that we'll have in a cohort, I'd say at least half of them have somebody doing something product ops related.

当我教授 CPO 加速器时，当我教这些队列中的人时，在我们队列中的 20 到 25 个人中，我想说至少有一半的人在做与产品运营相关的事情。

It might not be a mature function, it might just be one person on it, but at least half of them have somebody doing something.

它可能不是一个成熟的功能，可能只有一个人在做，但至少有一半是有人在做某事。

Denise Tilles: That's a good yardstick because I teach a product operations masterclass for Produx Labs with Melissa, and it's been interesting.

Denise Tilles：这是一个很好的标准，因为我和 Melissa 一起为 Produx Labs 教授产品运营大师班，这很有趣。

I do some pre-work and try to understand where folks are in the products journey.

我做了一些前期工作，并尝试了解人们在产品旅程中所处的位置。

When we started offering this class in 2020, about 60% were products curious.

当我们于 2020 年开始提供此类课程时，大约 60% 的人对产品感到好奇。

As time has gone on, it's really gone down and people have started to add it.

随着时间的推移，它确实减少了，人们开始添加它。

They just want to understand what's the best way to optimize it.

他们只是想了解优化它的最佳方法是什么。

So I would say it's gone from that level to, say, probably 60% of them do have it now and then want to understand how to optimize it.

所以我想说，它已经从那个水平发展到，比如说，可能 60% 的人现在确实拥有它，然后想要了解如何优化它。

Lenny: Do you have a sense of when this started to inflect and become such a common thing?

莱尼：你知道这是什么时候开始发生变化并变得如此普遍的吗？

When I was a product manager, I had no product ops person.

当我担任产品经理时，我没有产品运营人员。

So it's really fascinating to me to learn about this emergence.

因此，了解这一现象对我来说真的很有趣。

I know there's probably not a date, but just it sounds like maybe after your last book was published.

我知道可能没有日期，但听起来可能是在你的上一本书出版之后。

Is there a timeframe of this became a thing?

这件事有一个时间表吗？

Is it this guy you mentioned that's now at OpenAI that started spreading it?

是你提到的现在在 OpenAI 的那个人开始传播它的吗？

Melissa Perri: Blake, I think, was one of the people at the beginning who was talking about it the most and he's done a lot of work, I think, to push product operations and tell people about it.

梅丽莎·佩里：我认为布莱克是一开始谈论最多的人之一，我认为他做了很多工作来推动产品运营并向人们介绍这一点。

So that was great.

所以那太好了。

I know Pendo has been speaking about product ops a little bit more and that's where I started to notice that it was picking up steam.

我知道 Pendo 一直在更多地谈论产品运营，这就是我开始注意到它正在加速发展的地方。

I think around 2019 is when Pendo started talking about product operations.

我认为2019年左右是Pendo开始谈论产品运营的时候。

So it was roughly right after my book came out that I saw more people speaking about it and now they're trying to figure out, "Do we standardize it?

所以大约在我的书出版后，我看到更多的人谈论它，现在他们试图弄清楚，“我们是否标准化它？

What do we need?

我们需要什么？

How does this actually look like in organizations?" but I think it's been probably a good five years of now hearing people doing it in realtime.

这在组织中实际上是什么样子的？”但我认为现在听到人们实时做这件事可能已经过去了五年了。

Lenny: Awesome, and it sounds like maybe just in the last few years it started to really take off.

Lenny：太棒了，听起来也许是在最近几年它才开始真正起飞。

We actually had Christine from Pendo on the podcast talking about product ops about a year ago at this point.

实际上，大约一年前，我们在播客中邀请了来自 Pendo 的 Christine 谈论产品运营。

So this is a great followup to a lot of that.

所以这是对很多内容的很好的后续。

Before we talk about what is product ops and what are the functions, what would you say are the biggest benefits to a company having a product ops role and also just what's a sign that you should probably seriously consider bringing on a product ops person and starting to invest in that area?

在我们讨论什么是产品运营以及功能是什么之前，您认为担任产品运营角色的公司最大的好处是什么，以及什么迹象表明您应该认真考虑聘请产品运营人员并开始在该领域进行投资？

Denise Tilles: It's really about helping the product managers focus on what they were actually hired for, the strategic work.

Denise Tilles：这实际上是为了帮助产品经理专注于他们实际被雇用的目的，即战略工作。

In my role on the operating side and managing teams and Melissa as well, more and more product managers are taking on the data, harvesting the data, implementation and just to get data to work with, they're spending 20%, 30% of their time.

在我和 Melissa 的运营方、管理团队中，越来越多的产品经理正在处理数据、收集数据、实施数据，而只是为了让数据能够发挥作用，他们花费了 20%、30% 的时间。

So what would that look like if they were enabled and had all of those great inputs to actually focus on company growth, achieving the value, achieving the scaling goals that the company had?

那么，如果他们被启用并拥有所有这些巨大的投入来真正专注于公司发展、实现价值、实现公司的扩展目标，那会是什么样子呢？

So it's really about helping them focus on what they were hired for.

所以这实际上是为了帮助他们专注于他们被雇佣的目的。

Lenny: Again, when I was a PM, I had no product ops person, and having read your book, basically all the things product ops does is stuff PMs historically have done.

Lenny：再说一次，当我还是一名 PM 时，我没有产品运营人员，读过你的书后，基本上产品运营所做的所有事情都是 PM 历史上做过的事情。

To me, it's scary to give up all those things and put them on someone else's plate.

对我来说，放弃所有这些事情并把它们放到别人的盘子里是很可怕的。

There's the ideal of, "Oh, amazing, I don't have to do all these things.

有一个理想，“哦，太棒了，我不必做所有这些事情。

I'll focus on things I really get excited about," but there's also this new fear of, "Oh, someone else is going to take these things and maybe they won't do as well.

我会专注于我真正感到兴奋的事情，”但也有一种新的恐惧，“哦，其他人会接受这些事情，也许他们不会做得很好。

There's this new process I have to think about.

我必须考虑这个新流程。

There's new lines of communication." So what's your biggest pitch to a product manager starting to hear about product ops and this fear of like, "Oh, man, my job is going to be weird.

有新的通讯线路。”那么，当产品经理开始听说产品运营以及担心“哦，伙计，我的工作会很奇怪。

This new person I have to deal with all the time.

我必须一直与这个新人打交道。

I used to do all these things." How do you help a PM get excited about this?

我曾经做过所有这些事情。”您如何帮助 PM 对此感到兴奋？

Melissa Perri: Product operations does not take away decision making rights from the product manager.

Melissa Perri：产品运营并不会剥夺产品经理的决策权。

It's there to inform them.

这是为了通知他们。

So if you're judging your success as a product manager of, "Hey, I do the SQL queries and I have to spend the 50 hours to set up all these customer interviews and calls," that to me is very operational process type work, but it's not work that's going to help you make a decision about your product.

因此，如果你判断自己作为产品经理是否成功，“嘿，我负责 SQL 查询，我必须花 50 个小时来安排所有这些客户访谈和电话”，这对我来说是非常可操作的流程类型的工作，但它不会帮助你对你的产品做出决定。

That's why we're looking at the product operations team because what I've seen is product managers doing this off the side of their desk like me too.

这就是我们关注产品运营团队的原因，因为我看到产品经理也像我一样在办公桌旁做这件事。

I got excited about this because when I was at OpenSky in early days of my product management career, I had to go learn MongoDB to get data out of a database.

我对此感到很兴奋，因为当我在 OpenSky 从事产品管理职业生涯的早期时，我必须学习 MongoDB 以从数据库中获取数据。

I was sitting through a MongoDB class learning how to do this.

我正在听 MongoDB 课程，学习如何做到这一点。

I knew SQL, but we did not use the SQL database then.

我会SQL，但当时我们还没有使用SQL数据库。

I had to go learn MongoDB so I would stop bothering the engineers to be able to actually just measure if my products and my features were doing anything correct.

我必须去学习 MongoDB，这样我就不用再打扰工程师了，他们能够真正测量我的产品和功能是否正确。

Melissa Perri: That was a lot of time that I spent doing that instead of spending it on good feature work and on understanding my customers and working with my developers and figuring out what we were actually going to build, instead I'm out here learning this programming language, which I never used again, by the way.

Melissa Perri：我花了很多时间来做这件事，而不是花在好的功能工作上、了解我的客户、与我的开发人员合作以及弄清楚我们实际上要构建什么，相反，我在这里学习这种编程语言，顺便说一句，我再也没有使用过它。

Never used it again after that.

此后再也没有使用过它。

That to me is the stuff that product ops takes away from the product managers.

对我来说，这就是产品运营从产品经理那里夺走的东西。

Melissa Perri: What I constantly hear from product managers though is, "I am so busy, I don't have time to do the things that I need to do correctly.

Melissa Perri：我经常从产品经理那里听到的是，“我太忙了，没有时间做我需要正确做的事情。

I'm so busy trying to line up customer interviews," or, "I'm so busy just trying to get data out of systems.

我正忙着安排客户访谈，”或者，“我正忙着从系统中获取数据。

I'm fighting these fights to get the things that I need to do my job correctly that I don't have time to do my job correctly," and that's what we're trying to help them with.

我正在与这些斗争进行斗争，以获得正确完成工作所需的东西，而我没有时间正确完成工作，”这就是我们正在努力帮助他们的事情。

So I wouldn't be afraid that product ops is coming in here.

所以我不会担心产品运营会来到这里。

It's not supposed to be something that's providing more overhead.

它不应该是提供更多开销的东西。

It's supposed to be something that's a little more liberating and helps free you up from all the busy work.

它应该是一种更自由的东西，可以帮助你从所有繁忙的工作中解放出来。

Lenny: That's a great pitch.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的推介。

I always thought product management is an insane role with way too much going on, and that's why everyone's always burnt out and stressed.

我一直认为产品管理是一个疯狂的角色，发生的事情太多，这就是为什么每个人总是精疲力竭和压力重重。

There's just so many things you have to do.

有很多事情你必须做。

So I totally get how this is happening and why this is happening.

所以我完全明白这是如何发生的以及为什么会发生。

I love that you're helping people figure out how to actually do it well.

我喜欢你帮助人们弄清楚如何真正做好这件事。

Let's actually get into what the role actually is.

让我们真正了解一下这个角色到底是什么。

I think it's a really confusing role.

我认为这是一个非常令人困惑的角色。

A lot of people hear product ops and everyone know what it is.

很多人听说过产品运营，每个人都知道它是什么。

There's maybe research synthesis, there's some data stuff.

也许有研究综合，有一些数据。

What's the simplest way to think about what is the general consistent roles of a product ops person and what they can do for your company?

思考产品运营人员的一般一致角色是什么以及他们可以为您的公司做些什么，最简单的方法是什么？

Denise Tilles: The way we think about it is structured around the three pillars that we talk about in the book, so business and data insights, more of the quantitative side, making sure that the product manager has all of these engagement and revenue inputs to make smart decisions, the customer market insights, so the qualitative.

Denise Tilles：我们的思考方式是围绕我们在书中讨论的三个支柱构建的，即业务和数据洞察，更多的是定量方面，确保产品经理拥有所有这些参与和收入投入来做出明智的决策，客户市场洞察，因此是定性的。

We talked about this a little bit earlier in terms of finding folks to speak to, making sure you're speaking to more than one just customer.

我们之前讨论过这一点，即寻找可以交谈的人，确保你与不止一个客户交谈。

Finally, the third pillar is process and practices.

最后，第三个支柱是流程和实践。

So it's really around those areas and it depends on what your company needs and where the biggest opportunities and challenges might be.

因此，这实际上是围绕这些领域进行的，这取决于您的公司的需求以及最大的机遇和挑战可能在哪里。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So the three, just to reshare what you just said, the three pillars of product ops, business, data and insights, customer and market insights and the process of how you build product and helping the business operate more effectively in the way they build product.

所以这三个，只是重新分享一下你刚才所说的，产品运营、业务、数据和洞察力、客户和市场洞察力的三大支柱，以及如何构建产品并帮助企业以构建产品的方式更有效地运营的过程。

Denise Tilles: Sounds great when you say it.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：你说的听起来很棒。

Yes.

是的。

Lenny: I have the notes and this is exactly described in your book, so well-described.

莱尼：我有笔记，这在你的书中有准确的描述，描述得很清楚。

Is there one of these three that you find most important, impactful?

您认为这三项中哪一项最重要、最有影响力？

Is it really dependent on the business and their needs or what the PM wants to do?

这真的取决于业务及其需求或 PM 想要做什么吗？

How do you think about, I don't know, which of these three is maybe most important or is it a super dependent?

不知道你怎么想，这三者中哪一个可能是最重要的，还是超级依赖？

Melissa Perri: So we usually see that high growth companies start with business data and insights and make sure that they can actually monitor what they're doing and get the strategic inputs.

Melissa Perri：所以我们通常看到高增长公司从业务数据和洞察开始，并确保他们能够真正监控自己正在做的事情并获得战略投入。

We see larger companies and enterprises go more towards the process and governance, especially if they're in, let's say, a transformation because they don't have the infrastructure to run good product.

我们看到较大的公司和企业更多地关注流程和治理，特别是如果他们正在进行转型，因为他们没有运行良好产品的基础设施。

Let's say it's that way.

就这样吧。

They're usually just starting out, they're just forming their teams.

他们通常刚刚开始，刚刚组建自己的团队。

Let's say they just trained product managers and now they're like, "What else do we need to do besides just training product managers to make this work?" So they need an operating model and they typically don't have a product operating model.

假设他们刚刚培训了产品经理，现在他们会想：“除了培训产品经理才能完成这项工作，我们还需要做什么？”因此，他们需要一种运营模式，但他们通常没有产品运营模式。

Melissa Perri: In that case, they're looking at even just, "How do we do roadmaps across the organization so that I as a chief product officer or VP of product can actually just have transparency into what my teams are doing?" Jira does not work for that.

Melissa Perri：在这种情况下，他们甚至会考虑“我们如何在整个组织中制定路线图，以便我作为首席产品官或产品副总裁实际上可以透明地了解我的团队正在做的事情？” Jira 对此不起作用。

You need a portfolio tool to be able to roll that up into something that makes sense.

您需要一个投资组合工具才能将其汇总为有意义的东西。

Again, that helps me as a VP now or a CPO make strategic decisions and it helps me monitor my teams and understand, "Are we actually spending money on the right things?

同样，这有助于我现在作为副总裁或首席产品官做出战略决策，它有助于我监控我的团队并理解，“我们真的把钱花在了正确的事情上吗？

Are we doing the right work?" So they tend to do it more on the process and governance side, but it's all in service of being able to make rapid strategic decisions and get good products out there to the world.

我们正在做正确的工作吗？”因此，他们倾向于在流程和治理方面做得更多，但这一切都是为了能够做出快速战略决策并向世界提供优质产品。

Lenny: That's a really handy way of thinking about it.

莱尼：这是一种非常方便的思考方式。

So just to say what you said again, for high growth companies, you're finding of these three pillars generally where product ops can help most is the business and data insights, helping them understand what's happening and make decisions more quickly, which makes a lot of sense.

所以，再说一遍你所说的，对于高增长的公司来说，你发现在这三个支柱中，产品运营最能提供帮助的地方通常是业务和数据洞察，帮助他们了解正在发生的事情并更快地做出决策，这很有意义。

For more established older companies going through a digital transformation, oftentimes it's helping them with their process and making them more efficient in how they operate.

对于正在经历数字化转型的老牌公司来说，数字化转型通常会帮助他们改进流程并提高运营效率。

Is there also a bucket for the middle pillar of customer and market insights or is that spread across?

是否还有一个用于客户和市场洞察的中间支柱的桶，或者是否分散？

Denise Tilles: That's the squishy middle.

Denise Tilles：那是柔软的中间部分。

When I do teach this class, I ask people what their perception is of product ops and people never think that.

当我教授这门课时，我会问人们对产品运营的看法，但人们从来不会这么想。

So that's an area definitely for growth I think at a lot of companies.

所以我认为对于很多公司来说这绝对是一个增长的领域。

Lenny: How does that piece work with user research and that team?

Lenny：这件作品如何与用户研究和团队合作？

Melissa Perri: So we've seen a lot of the work that is done in that team.

Melissa Perri：我们已经看到了该团队所做的很多工作。

They work with user research.

他们从事用户研究。

Now, in organizations where let's say, this happens in a lot of organizations but not all of them, where product oversees design as well and user research and it oversees UX, this becomes seamless because you are going to have, let's say, a product ops person usually with a user research background who's going to be helping to do the stuff we talk about and the customer market insights piece, which is pulling all the research that's been done, like the customer interviews, all those things together into things like a findings database.

现在，在很多组织中都会发生这种情况，但不是所有的组织，产品也监督设计和用户研究，并监督用户体验，这变得无缝，因为你将拥有，比方说，一个通常具有用户研究背景的产品运营人员，他将帮助做我们谈论的事情和客户市场洞察部分，这将把所有已经完成的研究，比如客户访谈，所有这些东西整合到像结果数据库这样的东西中。

So there's great tools out there like Dovetail, but you can also roll your own, and it's about aggregating all the interviews or customer research that's been done so people can query it and start to see what do we already know so we're not going out there and duplicating a bunch of research.

因此，有像 Dovetail 这样很棒的工具，但你也可以推出自己的工具，它是关于聚合所有已完成的访谈或客户研究，以便人们可以查询它并开始了解我们已经知道的内容，这样我们就不会去那里重复大量研究。

Melissa Perri: It's also about finding participants who want to opt into research.

Melissa Perri：这也是为了寻找想要选择参与研究的参与者。

So making sure that you have customers aware that, "Hey, we might contact you to do customer interviews.

因此，请确保您的客户意识到，“嘿，我们可能会联系您进行客户访谈。

This is why.

这就是原因。

Do you want to participate in alphas and betas?

您想参加 Alpha 版和 Beta 版吗？

If so, this is what it entails." If we can build a database of people and customers that we have who opt into those types of things, it makes it easier for product managers to go out and contact them and say, "Hey, by the way, we got a beta.

如果是这样，这就是它所需要的。”如果我们能够建立一个数据库，其中包含选择参与此类活动的人员和客户，那么产品经理就可以更轻松地出去联系他们并说：“嘿，顺便说一句，我们有一个测试版。

Do you want to do it?" They know what it is, they're expecting it.

你想做吗？”他们知道那是什么，他们期待着它。

They know what the cadence is that people will reach out to them on to do research, and the user researchers can use that as well.

他们知道人们联系他们进行研究的节奏是什么，用户研究人员也可以使用它。

Melissa Perri: Now, the thing about the customer and market insights piece is that that person who's streamlining those activities and building those systems, they're not usually the same person who's doing the user research.

Melissa Perri：现在，关于客户和市场洞察部分的问题是，简化这些活动并构建这些系统的人通常不是进行用户研究的同一个人。

So this is not about taking user research away from product managers or from user researchers, it's about enabling them to do it more effectively, enabling the insights to be put out across the company more effectively, and also helping them get in touch with users and get that feedback.

因此，这并不是要把用户研究从产品经理或用户研究人员手中夺走，而是让他们能够更有效地进行研究，使见解能够更有效地在整个公司范围内发布，并帮助他们与用户取得联系并获得反馈。

Melissa Perri: Another piece of this too that we talk about is getting qualitative insights from sales and support.

Melissa Perri：我们谈论的另一件事是从销售和支持中获得定性见解。

So we always hear from sales teams, and this is the classic product management tension, "The product managers aren't listening to me" or, "I've told them five months ago that I had this problem with these customers that were going to churn." We didn't build those features.

因此，我们总是听到销售团队的来信，这是典型的产品管理紧张，“产品经理没有听我的”，或者“我五个月前告诉他们，我遇到了这些即将流失的客户的问题。”我们没有构建这些功能。

What this function does with the customer and market insights here is that it helps get a lot of that information back to the product team in an effective way.

此功能在这里对客户和市场洞察的作用是帮助以有效的方式将大量信息返回给产品团队。

Melissa Perri: Then it also helps communicate back to sales, "Hey, let's be a little transparent about how we're using that feedback." So that's how we can communicate it back in strategy.

Melissa Perri：然后它还有助于与销售人员进行沟通，“嘿，让我们对如何使用这些反馈保持透明一点。”这就是我们如何在策略中传达它。

Let them know where we stand with working on those ideas or solving those problems for customers, but usually, there's a wealth of qualitative information stuck somewhere in our organization systems, whether it's in Salesforce, whether it's in support tickets, in somebody's Google doc of their customer interviews that they've been doing, and what we're trying to do is get that out of these individual systems and into somewhere where a lot of people can take those qualitative insights and start to learn from them.

让他们知道我们在这些想法上的工作或为客户解决这些问题的立场，但通常，在我们的组织系统中的某个地方，有大量的定性信息，无论是在 Salesforce 中，无论是在支持票中，还是在他们一直在做的客户访谈的 Google 文档中，我们试图做的就是将这些信息从这些单独的系统中取出，放到很多人可以获取这些定性见解并开始向他们学习的地方。

Lenny: People always ask me, "What's changing in product management?

Lenny：人们总是问我，“产品管理发生了什么变化？

What's the future of product management?" I'm always like, "Nothing.

产品管理的未来是什么？”我总是这样说：“没什么。

It's going to be basically the same.

基本上是一样的。

It's just never going to be fully defined.

它永远不会被完全定义。

It's going to keep doing this weird role," but I feel like this is actually the answer.

它将继续扮演这个奇怪的角色，”但我觉得这实际上就是答案。

What's changing in product management is this product ops role is emerging, taking a lot of these things that PMs don't necessarily want to be doing or aren't amazing at and giving you more space to do the things they really want to do.

产品管理中正在发生的变化是产品运营角色正在兴起，它承担了很多 PM 不一定想做或不擅长的事情，并为你提供了更多的空间来做他们真正想做的事情。

So I think that's pretty amazing.

所以我认为这非常了不起。

I think if you think about the timeline, you said five years ago there was no real product ops.

我想如果你考虑一下时间线，你会说五年前没有真正的产品运营。

Today, half of companies essentially have a product ops role and I'm guessing in another few years it'll be much higher.

如今，一半的公司本质上都担任产品运营角色，我猜在接下来的几年里这个数字会更高。

So this is really interesting.

所以这真的很有趣。

Melissa Perri: I'm excited about it too.

梅丽莎·佩里：我也对此感到兴奋。

I think what we saw before was that, like you were saying, product management was this squishy role for a long time, but now we're standardizing what do product managers do.

我认为我们之前看到的是，就像你说的那样，产品管理在很长一段时间内都是这个软弱的角色，但现在我们正在标准化产品经理的工作。

What's happening, I think, though is product managers become more prevalent, and as people realize that this is a critical role for companies, whether you're a software company or a bank or something else.

我认为，正在发生的事情是产品经理变得越来越普遍，而且人们意识到这对公司来说是一个关键角色，无论你是软件公司、银行还是其他公司。

We build businesses off of software in today's world and if you're not building software, you are behind.

当今世界，我们依靠软件来建立业务，如果您不构建软件，那么您就落后了。

With more and more software that we're putting out there, product managers don't have time to go do all these things off the side of their desk and it's fine when you're a small startup.

随着我们推出的软件越来越多，产品经理没有时间在办公桌旁完成所有这些事情，当你是一家小型初创公司时，这很好。

I was doing it too.

我也在做。

Like I said, I had to go learn MongoDB when I was in a smaller company, and then we start to scale and I've got more and more product responsibility and I'm like, "I don't have time to go learn MongoDB now," and that's where people start to burn out and where they get frustrated, like you said.

就像我说的，当我在一家较小的公司时，我必须去学习 MongoDB，然后我们开始规模化，我承担了越来越多的产品责任，我想，“我现在没有时间去学习 MongoDB”，这就是人们开始精疲力尽和感到沮丧的地方，就像你说的那样。

Melissa Perri: We've got more and more systems, we've got more software tools out there that product managers are using, and it becomes a lot to track.

Melissa Perri：我们拥有越来越多的系统，产品经理正在使用越来越多的软件工具，需要跟踪的工作也变得越来越多。

So it's either, for companies, do you want to hire 10,000 product managers and let them all do these things off the side of their desk and then concentrate on strategic work 30% of the time or do you want them concentrating on strategic work majority of the time and then help build a product operations team around them that can create these shared systems and this infrastructure to allow them to work better?

那么，对于公司来说，你是想雇佣 10,000 名产品经理，让他们都在办公桌旁做这些事情，然后将 30% 的时间集中在战略工作上，还是希望他们大部分时间都集中在战略工作上，然后帮助围绕他们建立一个产品运营团队，可以创建这些共享系统和基础设施，让他们更好地工作？

Lenny: I think that's such a powerful way of thinking about this.

莱尼：我认为这是一种非常有力的思考方式。

I imagine PMs listening to you saying, "I don't have to learn MongoDB and SQL anymore," would think.

我想象 PM 们听到你说“我不再需要学习 MongoDB 和 SQL”时会想。

Actually, no, I think that's good.

事实上，不，我认为这样很好。

They should learn to do SQL and run their own data, but I think the important pieces here, yes, it would be great, but as you scale, it becomes harder and harder to have time to do all that because things ...

他们应该学习执行 SQL 并运行自己的数据，但我认为这里的重要部分是，是的，这会很棒，但随着规模的扩大，越来越难有时间做所有这些，因为事情......

You end up with other work that you need to be doing.

您最终会做其他需要做的工作。

So in theory, it would be awesome if your PMs could run their own queries and do their own research and create the whole process, but it just becomes harder and harder.

因此，从理论上讲，如果您的产品经理能够运行自己的查询、进行自己的研究并创建整个流程，那就太棒了，但这只会变得越来越难。

Lenny: It reminds me of a lot of companies that are trying to delay hiring a product manager in general and instead giving the role to engineers and designers.

Lenny：这让我想起很多公司都试图推迟聘用产品经理，而是把这个职位交给工程师和设计师。

My feedback is always like, "That's great as long as they want to be doing all these things that are not generally what they enjoy doing," like an engineer doesn't necessarily love running meetings and writing one pagers and strategy docs and taking notes.

我的反馈总是这样的，“只要他们想做所有这些通常不喜欢做的事情，那就太好了”，就像工程师不一定喜欢召开会议、编写寻呼机和策略文档以及记笔记一样。

So I think it's a similar thing where, sure, it's great until you don't really want to be doing that or you don't have time for that and you have your actual job you need to be doing.

所以我认为这是一个类似的事情，当然，这很好，除非你真的不想这样做，或者你没有时间这样做，并且你有你需要做的实际工作。

Denise Tilles: That's your full-time job and your OKRs and your goals are really around the outcomes for the company, you're like, "But I wrote 20 scripts this year." So we need to help them focus on the things that they're being expected to deliver in terms of value.

Denise Tilles：那是你的全职工作，你的 OKR 和你的目标实际上是围绕公司的成果，你会说，“但我今年写了 20 个脚本。”因此，我们需要帮助他们专注于他们期望提供的价值方面的事情。

Melissa Perri: I also think it's funny how many people want to be a product manager until they realize what product management entails.

Melissa Perri：我也认为很有趣的是，有很多人想成为一名产品经理，直到他们意识到产品管理的含义。

This happens a lot and I saw it with my MBA students at Harvard too.

这种情况经常发生，我在哈佛大学的 MBA 学生身上也看到过这种情况。

We do a whole class, they play a product manager.

我们上了一整堂课，他们扮演产品经理。

I had a lot of people opt out of being a product manager at the end of it.

我有很多人最终选择不再担任产品经理。

They were like, "I did not realize it was like that.

他们说：“我没有意识到事情是这样的。

I did not realize I had to do so many things." I think a lot of what gets them as well is the type of context switching that's required as a product manager.

我没有意识到我必须做这么多事情。”我认为，作为产品经理所需的上下文切换类型也是他们获得成功的关键。

So you already, just with the basis of what we have to do, do so many different things of user research, working with the designers, working with the developers, working with executives, working with different stakeholders.

因此，您已经在我们必须做的基础上做了很多不同的用户研究工作，与设计师合作，与开发人员合作，与高管合作，与不同的利益相关者合作。

You got to context switch to be able to relate to all them.

你必须进行上下文切换才能与所有这些人建立联系。

You got to empathize with all these different people.

你必须同情所有这些不同的人。

You have to do all these different tasks to do this type of work.

您必须完成所有这些不同的任务才能完成此类工作。

Melissa Perri: Then you got to go figure out what template to put your roadmap in, which is going to be different template than the other 80 product managers on your team because somebody didn't come in and just say, "Hey, we're going to use this." That type of work to me is just distracting from it.

Melissa Perri：然后你必须弄清楚将你的路线图放入什么模板，该模板将与你团队中其他 80 个产品经理不同，因为没有人进来只是说，“嘿，我们将使用这个。”对我来说，这类工作只会分散我的注意力。

Is it hard for a product leader to just be like, "Hey, this is a template we're using"?

对于产品负责人来说，“嘿，这是我们正在使用的模板”很难吗？

No, but then if that product leader has to go out and train 80 other people on that template, make sure it's consistently updated all the time, make sure it's in the right formats, make sure it's in the right software, that is where the overhead comes in, and a lot of product leaders are doing this right now and what we're trying to do is free up individual product managers, but also those product leaders.

不，但是如果那个产品负责人必须出去培训其他 80 个人使用该模板，请确保它始终持续更新，确保它采用正确的格式，确保它使用正确的软件，这就是开销的来源，很多产品负责人现在正在这样做，我们正在努力做的是解放单个产品经理，同时也解放那些产品负责人。

Melissa Perri: So I work with all these CPOs, these VPs of product and they're like ...

Melissa Perri：所以我与所有这些 CPO、这些产品副总裁一起工作，他们就像......

I see them just not working on strategy.

我发现他们只是没有制定战略。

I'm like, "Why are you not working on strategy?" and they're like, "I don't have time to do that.

我想，“你为什么不制定策略呢？”他们会说，“我没有时间这么做。

I'm in here stopping all these fires.

我在这里阻止所有这些火灾。

I'm figuring out what template I should put my roadmap in." Like I said, it's not hard.

我正在考虑应该将路线图放入哪个模板。”就像我说的，这并不难。

They know what template it should be in, but think about if you now can delegate that to somebody else and say, "I want it in this template.

他们知道它应该在哪个模板中，但想一想您现在是否可以将其委托给其他人并说：“我希望它在这个模板中。

Go roll it out.

去推出吧。

Go roll it out, go train everybody on it, find the right software for it, do it." It frees those people up, the leaders, to go work on strategy.

去推出它，对每个人进行培训，找到合适的软件，然后去做。”它让那些人、领导者能够腾出时间来制定战略。

That's why you're spending so much money for a product leader, anyway.

无论如何，这就是为什么你要花这么多钱聘请产品领导者。

That's why you spend so much money for a product manager, anyway.

无论如何，这就是为什么你花这么多钱请产品经理的原因。

So to me, these things are not impossible to do.

所以对我来说，这些事情并不是不可能做到的。

It's just do we have the right people doing them?

只是我们有合适的人来做这些事情吗？

Lenny: For PMs that are trying to figure out what remains on their plate, what are the the pieces that a PM should keep and not offload on a product ops person?

Lenny：对于那些试图弄清楚自己的盘子里还剩下什么的 PM，PM 应该保留哪些部分而不是转嫁给产品运营人员？

Melissa Perri: They don't want to offload decision rights.

Melissa Perri：他们不想放弃决策权。

You should never be outsourcing your decision making to a product ops person.

您永远不应该将决策外包给产品运营人员。

That's not the point.

这不是重点。

They're the product manager for the product managers.

他们是产品经理的产品经理。

That's how I think about it.

我就是这么想的。

So their decision should be around, "How do I operationalize great product management here?" but as a product manager, you shouldn't be delegating to them to make any decisions about their product, and that's not their job.

因此，他们的决定应该围绕“我如何在这里实施出色的产品管理？”但作为产品经理，你不应该委托他们对他们的产品做出任何决定，而这不是他们的工作。

If they are coming to you and saying, "You should build this," that's not their job either.

如果他们来找你并说“你应该建造这个”，那也不是他们的工作。

That's not the right thing.

那不是正确的事情。

Melissa Perri: So making the actual decision and then putting that decision into play with your teams, that's the type of work that you want to hold onto for a product manager.

Melissa Perri：因此，做出实际的决定，然后将这个决定与你的团队一起实施，这就是产品经理想要坚持的工作类型。

So while a product ops person can help you point you in the right direction, let's say, to find customers, maybe even help you get in touch with the customers, send out the email to invite them to a meeting or operationalize that, hopefully that's automated.

因此，虽然产品运营人员可以帮助您指明正确的方向，比如说寻找客户，甚至可以帮助您与客户取得联系，发送电子邮件邀请他们参加会议或实施该操作，希望这是自动化的。

I would love a product ops person to automate that type of stuff.

我希望产品运营人员能够自动化处理这类事情。

You are going to be doing the user research.

您将进行用户研究。

The product ops person you can go to and maybe say, "Hey, this is the type of problems that we're understanding," and maybe they help you find other pieces of information around the organization on those topics and bring it to you, but they're not going to be the ones reading through all this information and being like, "You should build this."

你可以去找产品运营人员，也许会说，“嘿，这就是我们正在理解的问题类型，”也许他们会帮助你找到有关这些主题的组织中的其他信息并将其带给你，但他们不会是那些阅读所有这些信息并说“你应该构建这个”的人。

Melissa Perri: They're also not going to be the ones who you say, "Hey, I made this decision about what to build, told the team about it, the team got together.

Melissa Perri：他们也不会是你所说的那些人，“嘿，我做出了关于构建什么的决定，告诉团队这个决定，团队聚集在一起。

Can you go monitor the developers and make sure they're building it on time?" No, they're not project managers, they're not the people who are going to be on top of your developers watching them build things, making sure that everything's out on time.

你能去监督开发商并确保他们按时建造吗？”不，他们不是项目经理，他们不是负责监督开发人员构建东西并确保一切按时完成的人。

That's not their role either.

那也不是他们的角色。

They're not going to handle hard stakeholder conversations about trade-offs for you, all of those things that you are going to want to keep ownership of because at the end of the day as a product manager, your job is to produce outcomes and you do need to make sure that you're monitoring those outcomes and moving towards them.

他们不会为你处理有关权衡的艰难利益相关者对话，所有这些你想要保留所有权的事情，因为归根结底，作为产品经理，你的工作是产生结果，你确实需要确保你正在监控这些结果并朝着这些结果迈进。

You don't want to offload their responsibility.

你不想推卸他们的责任。

Lenny: So I took a couple notes of just things that the PM continues to own, whatever, in quotes, no one owns anything, strategy, vision, prioritizing, resource allocation, trade-off decisions, hard conversations around trade-offs and stakeholder input and things like that.

莱尼：所以我记下了一些 PM 继续拥有的东西，无论如何，在引号中，没有人拥有任何东西，战略、愿景、优先级、资源分配、权衡决策、围绕权衡和利益相关者投入的艰难对话等等。

Is there anything else in that bucket of just stuff a PM, a product manager continues to be responsible for?

在PM、产品经理继续负责的那一桶东西中，还有其他什么事情吗？

Denise Tilles: Well, there's a big piece that we're missing, go-to-market, and that's where product ops could really make a difference in terms of connecting those teams, but also being the first point of contact for sales, first point of contact for product, and enabling just some efficiencies if we want to call it process or method, but just trying to help break down the silos.

Denise Tilles：嗯，我们缺少一个重要的部分，即进入市场，这就是产品运营在连接这些团队方面真正发挥作用的地方，同时也是销售的第一接触点、产品的第一接触点，并且如果我们想称之为流程或方法的话，可以提高一些效率，但只是试图帮助打破孤岛。

Denise Tilles: A company I'm working with right now, there's big challenge with that and it's a large enterprise level company.

Denise Tilles：我现在正在合作的一家公司，面临着巨大的挑战，而且它是一家大型企业级公司。

So how do we break down all of the different silos between departments and team leads and whatnot?

那么我们如何打破部门和团队领导之间的所有不同的孤岛等等？

So it's really talking about, "Here's how we're going to do it.

所以它实际上是在谈论，“这就是我们要做的事情。

Here's some simple templates we will use at training sales, training product," and then getting that into play.

这里有一些简单的模板，我们将在培训销售、培训产品时使用，”然后将其投入使用。

Doing the book and doing our research, that was a consistent story point from a lot of people that we interviewed that go-to-market was a really big pain point.

在写这本书和进行研究时，我们采访的许多人都一致认为，上市是一个非常大的痛点。

Melissa Perri: So I think too what Denise was saying is product ops will take on a lot of the coordination of those types of things and making the standardized templates, but as a product manager, your role in informing what the go-to-market is doesn't change.

梅丽莎·佩里：所以我也认为丹尼斯所说的是产品运营将承担这些类型的大量协调工作并制作标准化模板，但作为产品经理，您在告知上市内容方面的角色不会改变。

You're still putting the inputs in there.

您仍然将输入放在那里。

So maybe product ops will provide, for example, templates and help say, "Hey, here's the different pieces that we need to make a go-to-market plan," for example, "Here's the templates.

因此，产品运营人员可能会提供模板，并帮助说：“嘿，这是我们制定上市计划所需的不同部分，”例如，“这是模板。

Here's what I gathered from people," but you as a product manager still have to fill out your parts.

这是我从人们那里收集到的信息，”但是作为产品经理，你仍然需要填写你的部分。

Melissa Perri: You still have to go talk to the salespeople.

梅丽莎·佩里：你还是得去和销售人员谈谈。

You still have to work with the marketing people to make sure it's positioned correctly, but the product ops person can help with the program management around it of getting those people together, having consistent templates, creating the cadence for when you review those things, making sure that they all align and they're all in one place so you're not going to find them everywhere, and then making sure that go-to-market process is consistent across the organization so that it's not like, as Denise said, it's not like everybody's reinventing the wheel and somebody on a go-to-market team has to figure out how to go-to-market differently with a different product team.

你仍然需要与营销人员合作，以确保其定位正确，但产品运营人员可以帮助进行项目管理，将这些人员聚集在一起，拥有一致的模板，为你审查这些事情制定节奏，确保它们全部对齐并且都在一个地方，这样你就不会在各处找到它们，然后确保整个组织的进入市场流程是一致的，这样就不会像丹尼斯所说的那样，不像每个人的那样重新发明轮子，上市团队中的某个人必须弄清楚如何与不同的产品团队以不同的方式进入市场。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's a really handy and important addition.

这是一个非常方便且重要的补充。

You mentioned project management.

您提到了项目管理。

I imagine many people think product ops also takes on project management.

我想很多人认为产品运营也承担着项目管理的职责。

What's a good way to think about project management versus product ops?

考虑项目管理与产品运营的好方法是什么？

There's also program management.

还有程序管理。

Do you have a way of thinking about those roles?

您对这些角色有什么思考方式吗？

Denise Tilles: The way I like to think about it is, however, whatever they're doing in terms of the three pillars of product ops is really thinking about, as I mentioned earlier, increasing the speed and quality of decision making and all of the pillars of play into that.

Denise Tilles：然而，我喜欢的思考方式是，无论他们在产品运营的三大支柱方面所做的事情，实际上都是在考虑，正如我之前提到的，提高决策的速度和质量以及所有发挥作用的支柱。

Program manager, I think, is really thinking about larger company initiatives and the duration of their work is ongoing versus a project manager, they're responsible for certain project that's at a time box and an end date, but it does get a little wiffy, for sure.

我认为，项目经理真正考虑的是更大的公司计划，并且他们的工作持续时间是持续的，而项目经理则负责特定的项目，这些项目在一个时间范围和结束日期，但它确实有点不稳定，这是肯定的。

Lenny: I want to go back to the three pillars real quick and go one level deeper to help people understand what they actually entail and what are the jobs of a product ops person.

莱尼：我想快速回到三大支柱，并更深入地帮助人们了解他们实际上需要什么以及产品运营人员的工作是什么。

So just we could even keep this brief, but just let's say with business data and insights, what are the functions and jobs and things that a product ops person would be doing for your company?

因此，我们甚至可以保持简短，但我们可以通过业务数据和见解来说明，产品运营人员将为您的公司做什么职能、工作和事情？

Denise Tilles: A lot of companies will have a data science team or a business intelligence team and you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you don't have to have your internal product ops type of intelligence team, but it's about connecting those and making sure you're putting that with a product lens, and especially, say, with finance too.

Denise Tilles：很多公司都会有一个数据科学团队或商业智能团队，你不必重新发明轮子，你不必拥有内部产品运营类型的情报团队，但关键在于将这些团队连接起来，并确保你将其与产品镜头结合起来，尤其是与财务一起。

You don't want all the product managers hitting up the CFO for that month's revenue or having questions.

您不希望所有产品经理都向首席财务官询问该月的收入或提出疑问。

So it's about accessing all of these inputs and putting it through a product lens and then making sure that product managers actually know what to do with it, can action it.

因此，关键在于访问所有这些输入并将其置于产品镜头中，然后确保产品经理真正知道如何处理它，可以采取行动。

Lenny: So it's essentially running queries for you, generating charts and graphs and recommendations based on what the data's telling you.

Lenny：所以它本质上是为您运行查询，根据数据告诉您的内容生成图表和图表以及建议。

Basically, it's doing all the data stuff that a PM would be doing.

基本上，它正在做 PM 应该做的所有数据工作。

Is there anything else there?

还有什么吗？

Melissa Perri: Also helping the leaders too.

Melissa Perri：也帮助领导者。

So we're talking about it from a product management perspective, but I think this one especially becomes really critical for leaders and executives.

因此，我们从产品管理的角度来讨论它，但我认为这一点对于领导者和高管来说尤其重要。

A lot of times, and I sit through board meetings where we talk about ARR, we talk about retention, we talk about net retention, and we talk about all of these business metrics, and they're great for monitoring the health of our business, but where product ops comes into play in business data and insights is how do we monitor the health of our product.

很多时候，我参加董事会会议，讨论ARR、保留率、净保留率，以及所有这些业务指标，它们非常适合监控我们业务的健康状况，但产品运营在业务数据和洞察中发挥作用的地方是我们如何监控产品的健康状况。

Melissa Perri: So as a chief product officer, ARR is interesting to me, but it's not as interesting to me as ARR by customer segment.

Melissa Perri：作为首席产品官，ARR 对我来说很有趣，但它不如按客户细分的 ARR 有趣。

It's not as interesting as ARR by product line.

按产品线划分，它不像 ARR 那样有趣。

It's not as interesting if I take that and then look at it by retention or adoption by product or feature set or adoption by customer segment by product.

如果我采取这一点，然后通过产品或功能集的保留或采用或按产品的客户群采用来观察它，那就没有那么有趣了。

When we start to put those lenses on it, they now become a really powerful strategy insight.

当我们开始将这些镜头放在上面时，它们现在就成为真正强大的战略洞察力。

Melissa Perri: So what I think these people do and do really well is even at the executive level, they help you ...

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：所以我认为这些人所做的而且做得非常好，即使是在执行层面，他们也会帮助你......

You as a product leader are like, "I need these types of insights.

作为产品负责人，你会说：“我需要这些类型的见解。

This helps me.

这对我有帮助。

This is how our business runs and this is how I want to set the strategy." These people make those dashboards, make those repeatable insights for you.

这就是我们业务的运作方式，这就是我想要制定的战略。”这些人制作了仪表板，为您提供了可重复的见解。

Then ideally, they know the data so well and they know your business so well that they can surface up other opportunities for you as well to look at data that you didn't know was there or can find these interesting trends.

理想情况下，他们非常了解数据，也非常了解您的业务，因此他们还可以为您提供其他机会，以查看您不知道的数据或可以发现这些有趣的趋势。

Melissa Perri: So they are very much like the people digging into the data, they're just doing it with more of a product lens instead of, like Denise said, an overall company metric lens.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：所以他们非常像挖掘数据的人，他们只是更多地使用产品镜头而不是像丹尼斯所说的整体公司公制镜头。

It's not just in service of the product managers.

它不仅仅是为产品经理服务。

I just wanted to point that out because I think this becomes so powerful for leaders because if leaders don't understand those types of metrics, they can't actually monitor their strategies.

我只是想指出这一点，因为我认为这对于领导者来说非常强大，因为如果领导者不理解这些类型的指标，他们实际上无法监控他们的策略。

They can't go back and say, "Oh, we decided to go upmarket into the enterprise." Look, we've got enterprise revenue, but are you actually looking at where the enterprises are adopting different product lines?

他们不能回去说：“哦，我们决定进军高端市场。”看，我们有企业收入，但您实际上是否在关注企业在哪些方面采用不同的产品线？

Are you looking at how the enterprise uses different features, and if certain enterprises are using these types of features, are they less likely to churn?

您是否正在研究企业如何使用不同的功能，如果某些企业正在使用这些类型的功能，他们流失的可能性是否较小？

It's those types of insights that I think are really important on this lens.

我认为这些类型的见解对于这个镜头来说非常重要。

Lenny: As a PM hearing that somebody else will be doing this, it feels really weird.

Lenny：作为一名 PM，听说其他人会这样做，感觉真的很奇怪。

This feels like such a core job of a PM is to spend a lot of time with data, try to find opportunities, try to find things going well, not going well, but I think the message, again, is not you shouldn't be doing that as a PM and it's not bad if you are really good at it, it's you probably just don't have a lot of time to do it well.

感觉 PM 的核心工作就是花大量时间处理数据，尝试寻找机会，尝试发现事情进展顺利，进展不顺利，但我认为，这又是一个信息，不是你作为 PM 不应该这样做，如果你真的很擅长，那也不错，只是你可能没有很多时间把它做好。

If you can find someone that's really good at this and has time, that doesn't have all the other thousands of things on their plate, you'll actually end up finding more interesting results, finding more interesting insights.

如果你能找到一个真正擅长这件事并且有时间的人，而不需要处理所有其他数千件事，那么你实际上最终会发现更有趣的结果，找到更有趣的见解。

You're probably missing a bunch of stuff because you don't actually have a lot of time.

你可能会错过很多东西，因为你实际上没有很多时间。

Is that generally the way you think about it?

您通常也是这样想的吗？

Melissa Perri: Yeah, and I think too, the business and data insights people, they're not going to be experts on product.

Melissa Perri：是的，我也认为，业务和数据洞察人员，他们不会成为产品专家。

They're almost always not.

他们几乎总是不是。

We had a couple analysts at Produx Labs and they were ex-McKinsey, ex-Deloitte.

我们在 Produx Labs 有几位分析师，他们是前麦肯锡、前德勤的。

They didn't know anything about product.

他们对产品一无所知。

So we taught them the product piece and we were the ones who were like, "Here's the interesting data I know I'm going to need to see," and they were able to pull those things together in views where we could actually dig into it, but that was a jumping off point on the quantitative research where we're like, "Okay.

因此，我们教给他们产品部分，我们就是这样的人，“这是我知道我需要查看的有趣数据”，他们能够将这些东西整合到我们可以实际深入研究的视图中，但这是定量研究的一个起点，我们就像，“好吧。

Now we need to go do the qualitative."

现在我们需要进行定性分析。”

Melissa Perri: I think for product managers, you still need to be super comfortable with data.

Melissa Perri：我认为对于产品经理来说，你仍然需要对数据非常熟悉。

If you can't read these charts, if you can't see or understand trends, and a lot of times too, if you're putting this stuff in Looker or a BI tool, ideally, you can pull ad hoc reports yourself.

如果您无法阅读这些图表，如果您无法看到或理解趋势，而且很多时候，如果您将这些内容放入 Looker 或 BI 工具中，那么理想情况下，您可以自己提取临时报告。

It's just that you don't have to craft a SQL query to do it.

只是您不必编写 SQL 查询来完成此操作。

You still need to understand the relationship between data and product and you still need to understand what good data looks like.

你仍然需要了解数据和产品之间的关系，你仍然需要了解好的数据是什么样的。

You need to understand too things like causation and correlation.

您还需要了解诸如因果关系和相关性之类的事情。

You need to understand that, "If I put out this crazy marketing launch on Thursday, that's why all of a sudden we got a million signups on Thursday and we didn't get a million signups on Wednesday." They still need to understand all those things, and I don't think that becomes any less important.

你需要明白，“如果我在周四推出了这个疯狂的营销活动，这就是为什么我们在周四突然获得了 100 万注册，而在周三却没有获得 100 万注册。”他们仍然需要了解所有这些事情，我认为这并没有变得不那么重要。

I don't think understanding and interpreting trends becomes any less important as a product manager's job.

我认为，作为产品经理的工作，理解和解释趋势并没有变得不那么重要。

I just think it's about putting data into the hands of product faster so that it's not about you having to fight your way through bureaucratic processes at your company to get that data.

我只是认为这是为了更快地将数据交到产品手中，这样您就不必通过公司的官僚流程来获取数据。

Melissa Perri: So product ops can help streamline things that we know we're going to look at repeatedly.

Melissa Perri：因此，产品运营可以帮助简化我们知道要反复查看的事情。

There's a bunch of stuff that we know we should look at.

有很多我们知道应该关注的东西。

So put them in a dashboard like, "Why should I have to go pull that report ad hoc every single time?" Put them in a dashboard, put them in a report.

因此，将它们放在仪表板中，例如“为什么我每次都必须临时提取该报告？”将它们放在仪表板中，将它们放入报告中。

Same for board slides.

幻灯片也是如此。

We had one of my friends who's the chief product officer of Forsta, Brian Bhuta, and he said, "I love product ops because when we prepare for board meetings, I know there's a certain set of information that I'm going to have to put together for this board meeting, and then when we go do it manually, it becomes obsolete by the time the board meeting's over and then I got to start again and prepare for the next three months and do the board meeting again." So it's like you don't want your data to be obsolete.

我的一位朋友是 Forsta 的首席产品官 Brian Bhuta，他说：“我喜欢产品运营，因为当我们准备董事会会议时，我知道我必须为这次董事会会议整理一些特定的信息，然后当我们手动完成这些信息时，到董事会会议结束时它就已经过时了，然后我必须重新开始，为接下来的三个月做准备，并再次召开董事会会议。”所以这就像您不希望您的数据过时一样。

You want this to be in a repeatable fashion for things that you know are repeatable, but it doesn't get you off the hook of still looking for trends and looking for insights.

您希望以可重复的方式处理您知道可重复的事情，但这并不能让您摆脱仍然寻找趋势和寻找见解的困境。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers, and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有提出伟大的想法、与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且每天都在忙着救火。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的新优先级划分和路线图工具。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds and it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working so true collaboration is finally possible.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图，这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Lenny: Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

Lenny：伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导力，甚至是财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch, and it's only $10 a month for you.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何条件，而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: We had a guest on, Casey Winters, and he has this perspective that when you have ops, operational people, that's generally a sign that something is not efficient and it could be made more efficient with software and product.

Lenny：我们有一位嘉宾，Casey Winters，他有这样的观点：当你有运营人员时，这通常表明某些东西效率不高，可以通过软件和产品来提高效率。

Not everything can be productized, but do you have a perspective on that, that ops is often a sign where software, hopefully someday, could do itself?

并非所有东西都可以产品化，但是您对此有什么看法吗？运维通常是软件（希望有一天）可以自行完成的标志？

Melissa Perri: You still need people to oversee those programs.

Melissa Perri：你仍然需要有人来监督这些项目。

So I don't think they would fully be obsolete.

所以我认为它们不会完全过时。

It wouldn't be like this whole role goes away completely, but they're the people who should be looking at, "What can we do to optimize and streamline this?" and not do it with human components.

这整个角色不会完全消失，但他们是应该关注“我们可以做些什么来优化和简化这个问题的人”。而不是用人体成分来做到这一点。

I think that's why a product management mindset lands so well to a product ops function too because you're like, "How do I use software or tools or processes or frameworks to help fill in some of these gaps and standardize it and then let it run?" That what I was meaning by the shared services model.

我认为这就是为什么产品管理思维方式也适用于产品运营职能，因为你会想，“我如何使用软件、工具、流程或框架来帮助填补其中的一些空白并将其标准化，然后让它运行？”这就是我所说的共享服务模型的意思。

Melissa Perri: If you really think in that format, it's not like, "Hey, I need a team of 10,000 product ops people." I think you're doing it wrong if you're doing that right.

Melissa Perri：如果你真的以这种方式思考，那就不会是“嘿，我需要一支由 10,000 名产品运营人员组成的团队”。我认为如果你做对了，那你就做错了。

It should be a well-run lean team who thinks about how to leverage tools for this or building your own or whatever and your products for the product team, and that's how it should be seen.

它应该是一个运行良好的精益团队，考虑如何利用工具来实现这一目标，或者为产品团队构建自己的产品或其他产品，这就是应该如何看待它。

So what I mean it shouldn't be obsolete one day, if you are building, let's say, products for the product team, you still need somebody to look over that product and make sure it's relevant.

所以我的意思是它不应该有一天过时，如果你正在为产品团队构建产品，你仍然需要有人来检查该产品并确保它是相关的。

At the pace of everything changing like it does today, so many things are so different than they were five years ago, you want somebody to be looking over that and making sure they're still up-to-date, it's still relevant, it still works for our company and stuff like that, but you're going to have a smaller subset of people doing that.

以当今一切事物变化的速度来看，很多事情与五年前相比有很大不同，你希望有人去检查并确保它们仍然是最新的，它仍然相关，它仍然适用于我们公司和类似的东西，但你将会有一小部分人这样做。

It's not going to be like, "Oh, I need a product ops team for every product manager that's on here." That's not how it should work at all.

它不会是这样的，“哦，我需要为这里的每个产品经理建立一个产品运营团队。”这根本不应该是这样的。

Lenny: I think that is going to make a lot of people feel better hearing that.

莱尼：我认为这会让很多人听到这个消息感觉更好。

Do you have any rule of thumb or way of thinking about just how many product ops people you want per product manager, per team?

对于每个产品经理、每个团队需要多少产品运营人员，您有什么经验法则或思考方式吗？

What's a simple heuristic for just how many people you may need?

对于您可能需要多少人来说，有什么简单的启发法吗？

Melissa Perri: I don't have a hard and fast rule on that one, but I would say if you are at a one-to-one ratio, you're doing it wrong.

Melissa Perri：我对此没有硬性规定，但我想说，如果你处于一对一的比例，那么你就做错了。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Denise Tilles: If you're at one-to-hundred, you're doing it wrong.

Denise Tilles：如果你是一比一百，那么你就做错了。

Melissa Perri: Yeah, too.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的，也是。

I also think it's like ...

我也觉得这就像...

So when we talked about it too with this hybrid versus shared services model, if you have a hybrid model, let's say, and typically, this is a symptom that your data is not well-instrumented.

因此，当我们也讨论这种混合与共享服务模型时，如果您有一个混合模型，那么通常情况下，这表明您的数据没有得到很好的仪表化。

Let me put it that way as well.

我也这么说吧。

Sometimes you need a stopgap holdover until you can well-instrument your data or something, and that could be as long as it takes for certain companies.

有时，您需要权宜之计，直到可以很好地检测数据或其他内容，这对于某些公司来说可能需要很长时间。

In this case, like we said, you might have a business data and insights person aligned to every director of product who oversees multiple Scrum teams.

在这种情况下，正如我们所说，您可能有一个业务数据和洞察人员，与负责监督多个 Scrum 团队的每位产品总监保持一致。

You might have one aligned to every VP of product, depending on how much help you need to get the product data out of things.

您可能会为每位产品副总裁安排一名副总裁，具体取决于您需要多少帮助才能从事物中获取产品数据。

Melissa Perri: Now, if you have a very well-instrumented dataset like we were talking about at Doodle or something like that, you're probably going to have way less people because the product managers are armed and capable of going in there and being able to pull the queries themselves, do their ad hoc research themselves because they made it accessible and you made it possible for them to go do that.

Melissa Perri：现在，如果你有一个像我们在 Doodle 或类似的东西上讨论的那样工具齐全的数据集，那么你的人员可能会少得多，因为产品经理全副武装，有能力进入那里并能够自己提取查询，自己进行临时研究，因为他们让数据变得可访问，并且你让他们可以这样做。

Melissa Perri: So I do think there's a balance there between how good your company is instrumented both for everything, for all three of these pieces that we're talking about relative to the size of your product ops team.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：所以我确实认为，您的公司在所有方面以及我们正在谈论的所有这三个方面的装备与您的产品运营团队的规模之间存在着平衡。

It might take some more manpower at the beginning to get it going, but, ideally, you streamline this team and it becomes pretty lean and pretty small and they're overseeing multiple programs or software systems that run themselves.

一开始可能需要更多的人力才能让它运转起来，但是，理想情况下，你精简了这个团队，它变得非常精简且非常小，并且他们正在监督多个自行运行的程序或软件系统。

Lenny: Well, it gives me a lot of hope that this isn't going to become just another massive org within a company.

莱尼：嗯，这给了我很大的希望，它不会成为公司内的另一个大型组织。

It is looking at companies that are incredibly efficient like Ramp and Deal that have very few employees, very few product managers, and they have product ops people.

它着眼于像 Ramp 和 Deal 这样效率极高的公司，这些公司的员工很少，产品经理也很少，但他们有产品运营人员。

So that tells me there's a lot of leverage that you can find from just maybe, I don't know, one or two that's probably not a large team of product ops people there.

所以这告诉我，你可以从一两个可能不是大型产品运营人员团队的人那里找到很多杠杆作用，我不知道。

Melissa Perri: We say too, get started with one person.

Melissa Perri：我们也说，从一个人开始。

We described these three pillars and repeatedly through the book we're like, "Hone in on what's the most important part for you that's going to help you right now," that we talk through, and then just take one person and throw that out there.

我们描述了这三个支柱，并在书中反复强调，“专注于现在对你来说最重要的部分，这对你有帮助”，我们讨论过，然后只找一个人把它扔出去。

Usually, you can get so much leverage from that that it frees you up to do a lot of the stuff that you need to get done.

通常，你可以从中获得很大的影响力，从而让你有时间去做很多你需要完成的事情。

Then when you're ready and you see the next hurdle and it's not something that first person can take on, then you might add one more person.

然后，当您准备好并看到下一个障碍并且这不是第一个人可以承担的事情时，那么您可能会再添加一个人。

Melissa Perri: There are different expertise, I think, between the three different pillars and the people who would oversee it, and that's something to take into account as well.

Melissa Perri：我认为，三个不同的支柱和监督人员之间有不同的专业知识，这也是需要考虑的因素。

So like we said, in business data and insights, that person typically is not an expert on product.

正如我们所说，在业务数据和见解方面，该人通常不是产品专家。

Hopefully they get ramped up on it working with you, but they're typically not an expert on product.

希望他们能够与您合作，但他们通常不是产品专家。

A lot of times these people are not coming from a product management background.

很多时候这些人都没有产品管理背景。

That's going to be actually a different person than I would look at to help with the governance and product pieces.

实际上，我会找一个不同的人来帮助治理和产品工作。

That person needs to be a product background person because they're usually helping roll out the roadmap stuff, coach people on how to do it, helping to define the different systems and processes that you need on your product operating model, and if they have no experience with product management at all, that's going to be really hard for them to do and it's probably not going to be great.

这个人需要是产品背景人员，因为他们通常帮助推出路线图，指导人们如何去做，帮助定义产品运营模型所需的不同系统和流程，如果他们根本没有产品管理经验，那么这对他们来说真的很难做到，而且可能不会很好。

Melissa Perri: We do see this trend of people throwing agile coaches at this, and agile coaches who have never been a product manager before in a well-run company are going to struggle there because they're going to revert back to agile processes and optimizing for things like Scrum, but they're not going to do what that role is designed for, which is to help product management processes.

Melissa Perri：我们确实看到了人们为此抛弃敏捷教练的趋势，而以前在一家运营良好的公司中从未担任过产品经理的敏捷教练将会在这方面陷入困境，因为他们将回归敏捷流程并针对 Scrum 之类的事情进行优化，但他们不会做该角色的设计目的，即帮助产品管理流程。

We don't usually need another agile coach telling us how to run a standup.

我们通常不需要另一位敏捷教练来告诉我们如何进行站立会议。

We need people to come in and help us figure out who's invited to these cross-functional roadmap reviews, what inputs do we need on there, and what decisions do we need to make coming out of it, and how do we communicate it at the correct level to executives as well so we're not digging into Jira at these meetings in front of A CEO.

我们需要有人进来帮助我们弄清楚谁被邀请参加这些跨职能路线图审查，我们需要什么投入，我们需要做出什么决定，以及我们如何在正确的层面上与高管沟通，这样我们就不会在首席执行官面前的这些会议上深入研究 Jira。

CEOs don't care about what's in Jira.

CEO 并不关心 Jira 中有什么。

Well, they shouldn't.

嗯，他们不应该。

Let's put it that way.

这么说吧。

Melissa Perri: They want to know like, "What are the big pushes that we're doing to help us reach our strategic objectives?" So it's helping that they know a little more about the right size of communication, the different cross-functional teams, what product managers do on a daily basis and what's important to them, and that's really critical in that role.

Melissa Perri：他们想知道，“我们正在采取哪些重大措施来帮助我们实现战略目标？”因此，他们更多地了解适当的沟通规模、不同的跨职能团队、产品经理每天做什么以及什么对他们重要，这对他们来说非常有帮助，这对于这个角色来说非常关键。

So that's where, I think, your teams might just be slightly bigger from a perspective of more than one person.

因此，我认为，从多人的角度来看，您的团队可能会稍微大一些。

I'm not saying hundreds of people, but you might need a couple different people in this organization because the roles are slightly different.

我并不是说数百人，但在这个组织中您可能需要几个不同的人，因为角色略有不同。

For the market research and the customer research thing too, you might need somebody with a user research background for that.

对于市场研究和客户研究，您可能需要具有用户研究背景的人。

Somebody who did research ops is a great person for that.

做过研究操作的人是这方面的好人。

Denise Tilles: It's pretty unusual, I think, to see companies start out with an entire team.

Denise Tilles：我认为公司以整个团队起步是很不寻常的。

I worked with Sam's Club and they were planning to do it that way, but mostly we see it starting organically.

我与山姆会员店合作，他们计划这样做，但大多数情况下我们看到它是有机开始的。

I think the way mentioned in her story of being a PM and feeling the pain and having the empathy of wanting to make it better, and that's typically the generation of these roles, that it might be someone being allocated part-time from their PM role and finding out that they really do enjoy this enablement aspect of it and that's where it grows.

我认为她的故事中提到的方式，即作为一名产品经理，感受到痛苦，并具有想要让它变得更好的同理心，这通常是这些角色的产生，可能有人从他们的产品经理角色中被分配为兼职，并发现他们确实喜欢它的这种支持方面，这就是它的发展方向。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So let's just lean into this topic of just how to start rolling it out at your company, and you've already talked about a bunch of tips there.

因此，让我们重点讨论如何开始在您的公司推出它的主题，您已经在那里讨论了很多技巧。

By the way, if you buy your book at the end there, there's this really beautiful little guy, there you go, I think, on the camera of just a little yellow brick road of all the steps that it takes to roll it out.

顺便说一句，如果你在最后买了书，那里有一个非常漂亮的小家伙，我想，你就在相机上拍摄了一条黄色的小砖路，记录了推出这本书所需的所有步骤。

Lenny: Candyland.

莱尼：糖果乐园。

So on this topic of just who to start with, sounds like you recommend start with one person, and what I'm hearing is pick one of these three pillars that you think is most highest leverage potentially to take off your product management plate.

因此，在这个从谁开始的话题上，听起来你建议从一个人开始，我听到的是选择你认为最有可能摆脱产品管理板块的三个支柱之一。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny: So what else should people be thinking about in starting to roll this role out, starting to build this team?

莱尼：那么人们在开始推出这个角色、开始建立这个团队时还应该考虑什么？

Denise Tilles: That's a great question.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：这是一个很好的问题。

So one of our case studies is Shintaro Matsui at Amplitude, and he created the role at Amplitude.

我们的案例研究之一是 Amplitude 的 Shintaro Matsui，他在 Amplitude 创造了这个角色。

When you think about, it's Meta.

当你想一想，那就是Meta。

So they're creating a tool that helps in terms of product operations, but they're enabling it there as well.

因此，他们正在创建一种有助于产品运营的工具，而且他们也在那里启用了它。

So he's done a really great job of getting that set up and really being a thought leader there.

所以他在建立这一点方面做得非常出色，并且真正成为了那里的思想领袖。

So the case study that we chatted with him about was introducing it and how do you get it going and how do you build the momentum and show the quick wins.

因此，我们与他讨论的案例研究是介绍它以及如何让它继续下去，以及如何建立动力并展示快速获胜。

That was his top tip was making sure that you set, understand, first of all, you may have a perception of what the biggest needs are, but doing your listening tour and doing your user research, some research sprints, understanding there may be a huge opportunity, but it also sounds massive in your team of one, where can you make the most difference quickly?

他的首要建议是确保你设定、理解，首先，你可能了解最大的需求是什么，但是通过聆听之旅、用户研究、一些研究冲刺，了解可能存在巨大的机会，但在你的团队中听起来也很大，你能在哪里快速发挥最大作用？

Where can you have the most impact?

你在哪里可以发挥最大的影响力？

Denise Tilles: So identifying those, celebrating those wins, making sure everybody understands that, and then showing what's above the line with a person of one the capabilities you'll have, and then below the line, things that you may not get but you could if we did think about building the team and setting the expectations as well.

Denise Tilles：因此，确定这些，庆祝这些胜利，确保每个人都理解这一点，然后向一个人展示你将拥有的能力，然后向一个人展示你将拥有的能力，然后向你展示你可能无法得到的东西，但如果我们确实考虑建立团队并设定期望，你就可以获得。

Lenny: Do you suggest they try to hire someone that has already been a product ops person?

莱尼：你是否建议他们尝试雇用已经是产品运营人员的人？

Is it okay to hire someone that hasn't then they just become a product ops person?

雇佣一个还没有成为产品运营人员的人可以吗？

How important is that experience?

这种经历有多重要？

Denise Tilles: I think if you find someone that's done the role of product management, awesome.

Denise Tilles：我认为如果你找到一个做过产品管理工作的人，那就太棒了。

If someone's set it up somewhere ...

如果有人在某个地方设置了它......

Look at Blake Samic, started from Uber to Strike to AI.

看看 Blake Samic，从 Uber 到 Strike，再到人工智能。

Clearly, he's got a model going that's really successful.

显然，他的模式非常成功。

So if somebody could get a Blake Samic, I would say definitely do that.

因此，如果有人能得到 Blake Samic，我会说一定会这样做。

Lenny: It'd be hard to pull him away from OpenAI.

Lenny：很难让他离开 OpenAI。

Melissa Perri: I don't think he's leaving there right now.

梅丽莎·佩里：我认为他现在不会离开那里。

Just started, got a lot of work ahead of him.

刚刚开始，还有很多工作等着他。

Lenny: We have a lot of LinkedIn requests right now.

Lenny：我们现在有很多 LinkedIn 请求。

Here they come.

他们来了。

Melissa Perri: Poor Blake.

梅丽莎·佩里：可怜的布莱克。

Sorry, sorry for your inbox.

抱歉，对不起你的收件箱。

I think too it's about if you're going all in.

我也认为这取决于你是否全力以赴。

If you're just trying to get buy-in for this and let's say it's originating from a CPO or a product leader who's like, "Hey, let's start this out," but the company's not ready to invest all the way, you might pull somebody from a different function, let's say, have them be the product ops person and try to rapidly demonstrate value.

如果你只是想获得支持，假设它来自首席产品官或产品负责人，他们会说，“嘿，让我们开始吧”，但公司还没有准备好全力投资，你可能会从不同的职能部门抽调某人，让他们担任产品运营人员，并尝试快速展示价值。

If you're a CPO or a leader and you're like, "I got budget.

如果您是 CPO 或领导者，您会说：“我有预算。

I know this is important.

我知道这很重要。

I'm totally bought in.

我完全相信了。

Let's go," you're probably better off hiring, let's say, somebody who's done this before, somebody who's experienced, but also somebody who could be more of a VP or director of product ops and then they can go do the hiring and figuring out, "Do we pull people from other functions and streamline it?" That helps free up the leader as well from not having to go find 8,000.

走吧，”你可能最好雇用一个以前做过这件事的人，一个有经验的人，但也可以是一个可以担任副总裁或产品运营总监的人，然后他们可以去招聘并弄清楚，“我们是否从其他职能部门抽调人员并简化它？”这也有助于领导者摆脱寻找 8,000 人的麻烦。

It's never going to be 8,000 people, but eight people to do that function.

永远不会有 8,000 人，而是 8 个人来完成这项职能。

Melissa Perri: So that would be a way to look at it as well.

Melissa Perri：所以这也是看待它的一种方式。

So if people are not quite sold on it, you might want to start with one function.

因此，如果人们不太喜欢它，您可能想从一项功能开始。

Figure out where the burning issue is.

找出燃烧的问题在哪里。

Demonstrate that value.

展示这一价值。

Show that it's something that you want to actually invest in, and then you might want to hire in a leader or help build up the team from there.

表明这是你真正想要投资的东西，然后你可能想要聘请一位领导者或帮助建立团队。

Lenny: It feels like that first hire is so important because if they don't do great, the whole role of product ops starts to get a bad tinge within the company.

Lenny：感觉第一个员工非常重要，因为如果他们做得不好，产品运营的整个角色就会开始在公司内部受到不好的影响。

So there's a lot of pressure on making sure that first person succeeds.

因此，确保第一人称成功面临着很大的压力。

I guess more reason to buy your book and make sure that they do it right.

我想更有理由购买你的书并确保他们做得正确。

Melissa Perri: If you feel like you as a leader can coach the product ops person and you have time to coach the product ops person, let's say, through being a good product ops person and getting started with it and directing them, you're probably good at taking somebody who does not have experience but has the right skillset and then you can teach them.

Melissa Perri：如果你觉得作为领导者你可以指导产品运营人员，并且你有时间指导产品运营人员，那么可以说，通过成为一名优秀的产品运营人员并开始使用并指导他们，你可能擅长带领那些没有经验但拥有合适技能的人，然后你可以教他们。

If you have absolutely no time to coach this person and they're not super self-directed, let's say, so they're not going out taking classes, reading the books, doing that type of thing, probably going to want to hire somebody who's done it before, at least that portion of it, and then that person can help coach other people grow the function.

如果你完全没有时间指导这个人，而且他们不是超级自我导向，那么他们就不会出去上课、读书、做类似的事情，可能会想要雇用以前做过这件事的人，至少是那部分的人，然后这个人可以帮助指导其他人发展这一职能。

Melissa Perri: It's the same thing with product management.

Melissa Perri：产品管理也是如此。

We look at these teams especially in a lot of transformation companies.

我们特别关注许多转型公司中的这些团队。

We have a lot of product managers who've never been product managers before, and a lot of leaders who've never been product managers before, and they ask me, "Do I hire in experienced leaders or what?" and I'm like, "Well, if those product leaders need to go coach other product managers, then you need somebody who's experienced in there.

我们有很多以前从未当过产品经理的产品经理，还有很多以前从未当过产品经理的领导者，他们问我，“我是要雇用经验丰富的领导者还是什么？”我说，“好吧，如果那些产品负责人需要去指导其他产品经理，那么你需要有这方面经验的人。

You need somebody who knows how to get that work done.

您需要一个知道如何完成这项工作的人。

If they don't have time to learn, if you're not on a timeline to actually teach these people these things and get them up to speed, then you need somebody to hit the ground running."

如果他们没有时间学习，如果你没有在时间表上实际教这些人这些东西并让他们跟上进度，那么你就需要有人立即行动。”

Melissa Perri: So I'd look at it for how much time do we have to demonstrate value, how much coaching is available to get this person into the right mindset and the right skillset to do this and execute.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：所以我会考虑我们需要多少时间来展示价值，有多少指导可以让这个人进入正确的心态和正确的技能来做到这一点并执行。

I think that that's needed in almost every role, not just this one.

我认为几乎每个角色都需要这一点，而不仅仅是这个角色。

Denise Tilles: One thing I wanted to mention was whether to hire products or product manager person for the role with the background of product ops or product management, there's not a ton of folks out there that have a products title, but as you're looking, dig in because this person may have been doing a lot of the work as a product manager or within that title.

Denise Tilles：我想提的一件事是，是否雇用具有产品运营或产品管理背景的产品或产品经理来担任该​​职位，没有很多人拥有产品头衔，但正如你所寻找的，深入挖掘，因为这个人可能作为产品经理或在该头衔内做了很多工作。

So there's a lot of people out there that probably would fit that profile, but not with a proper product ops title.

因此，有很多人可能符合这一要求，但没有合适的产品运营头衔。

Lenny: What are the key skills that you find are really important for finding this person, especially if they don't have this role?

莱尼：您认为对于找到这个人来说真正重要的关键技能是什么，特别是如果他们没有这个角色的话？

My guess is dependent on the pillar, if they're data-focused, research-focused or process-focused.

我的猜测取决于支柱，是否以数据为中心、以研究为中心或以流程为中心。

What do you suggest to make sure you're looking for when you're hiring this person?

当你雇用这个人时，你有什么建议来确保你在寻找这个人？

Melissa Perri: With the business data and insights, you're looking for somebody who's really good at interpreting data, telling stories with data, somebody who's good at communicating to many different types of stakeholders about the data and putting it into useful ways.

Melissa Perri：通过业务数据和洞察，您正在寻找真正擅长解释数据、用数据讲故事的人，擅长与许多不同类型的利益相关者就数据进行沟通并将其转化为有用的方式的人。

What I wouldn't hire for that role as a first person is it's not a database engineer.

作为第一人选，我不会雇用这个角色，因为它不是数据库工程师。

That's not what we're doing.

那不是我们正在做的事情。

We're not SQL-ing, turning things into the right SQL tables.

我们不是 SQL-ing，将事物变成正确的 SQL 表。

We're instead trying to get the information out of the SQL tables and make sense out of it.

相反，我们尝试从 SQL 表中获取信息并理解其中的含义。

Melissa Perri: So we actually find people with consultant backgrounds who are really good at this because they're usually churning out these types of reports and stuff for PE firms, VC firms, and whoever were their clients to begin with.

Melissa Perri：所以我们实际上找到了具有顾问背景的人，他们非常擅长这一点，因为他们通常为私募股权公司、风险投资公司以及他们的客户制作这些类型的报告和材料。

What would be ideal is if that person has a lot of experience with a BI tool like Looker or Tableau as well and they could use it.

理想的情况是，如果该人对 Looker 或 Tableau 等 BI 工具也有丰富的经验，并且可以使用它。

That's not always the case.

情况并非总是如此。

Sometimes those people are really good at Excel and PowerPoint, but they're not great at the Looker and BI.

有时，这些人确实擅长 Excel 和 PowerPoint，但他们并不擅长 Looker 和 BI。

If you could find that two things together though, home run right there.

如果你能把这两件事放在一起，那就全垒打吧。

Melissa Perri: So this person's probably a data analyst background.

Melissa Perri：所以这个人可能有数据分析师背景。

We did have a business intelligence background like you were talking about as well, something like that for the business and data and insights role.

我们确实也有您所说的商业智能背景，类似于业务、数据和洞察角色的背景。

It does not have to be a product manager.

它不一定是产品经理。

I think you can help them, steer them in the right directions for what questions you need to answer.

我认为你可以帮助他们，引导他们朝着正确的方向回答你需要回答的问题。

They shouldn't be the ones coming up with all the questions you need to answer.

他们不应该是提出您需要回答的所有问题的人。

It'd be great if they surface some insights, but you ask them the questions, they can go get the answers.

如果他们能提出一些见解那就太好了，但你问他们问题，他们可以得到答案。

Lenny: What about for the other two pillars?

莱尼：那另外两个支柱呢？

Denise Tilles: Well, in terms of the process and practices, I think this person really needs a super high EQ, understanding what the needs are, but also has a good spidey sense of how much methods do we need to think about bringing to the team and thinking about how those things get introduced that it's not a mandate, but it's a suggestion of how we can work.

Denise Tilles：嗯，就流程和实践而言，我认为这个人确实需要超高的情商，了解需求是什么，而且对我们需要考虑给团队带来多少方法以及如何引入这些方法有很好的敏锐感觉，这不是一项任务，而是我们如何工作的建议。

Typically, product managers will be pretty open to that because if they're like, "I don't know what the roadmap template is.

通常，产品经理对此持开放态度，因为如果他们会说，“我不知道路线图模板是什么。

I don't know what the roadmap cadence is." "Here's some guidance." "Awesome.

我不知道路线图的节奏是什么。” “这里有一些指导。” “太棒了。

Now I don't have to think about how to do it, I'm just going to do it."

现在我不用考虑怎么做，我就去做。”

Denise Tilles: So I think someone who has a lot of experience understanding the underlying tensions and opportunities, and then feels good and understands how to implement the systems thinking and also understands it's not a set it and forget it, that they're constantly reevaluating the processes, the tools, "Are these working for us?" Then understands, I think, in more broadly, "As my CPO is getting ready for a board meeting, what are the inputs they're going to need?

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：所以我认为那些拥有丰富经验的人能够理解潜在的压力和机遇，然后感觉良好并理解如何实施系统思维，并且也理解这不是一成不变的，然后忘记它，他们不断地重新评估流程和工具，“这些对我们有用吗？”然后，我认为，更广泛地理解，“当我的 CPO 准备召开董事会会议时，他们需要哪些投入？

As we're getting ready for the QBR, are the PMs ready?

当我们为 QBR 做准备时，PM 准备好了吗？

Do we have a cohesive stories?

我们有连贯的故事吗？

Anybody taking the time to look at all of the different presentations to make sure that we're giving the same perspective or building towards a certain strategy that everybody's focused on?" So that would be my advice.

有人花时间查看所有不同的演示文稿，以确保我们给出相同的观点或制定每个人都关注的特定策略吗？”这就是我的建议。

Melissa Perri: I think for customer and market research part, you're looking for somebody with more of a user research background here, but process-oriented.

Melissa Perri：我认为对于客户和市场研究部分，您正在寻找具有更多用户研究背景但以流程为导向的人。

So I'd look for somebody who knows user research code, knows really good tactics for that because it can help create the toolkits, get the right type of prototyping and usability software in there.

因此，我会寻找了解用户研究代码、了解真正好的策略的人，因为它可以帮助创建工具包，获得正确类型的原型和可用性软件。

They know what good interviewing looks like, that type of stuff, but they also got this need to make things better.

他们知道什么是好的面试，诸如此类的事情，但他们也有让事情变得更好的需要。

So they're like, "I need to create a system to do this." They're good at operationalizing stuff.

所以他们会说，“我需要创建一个系统来做到这一点。”他们擅长将事情付诸实施。

I think that's a skill for everybody.

我认为这对每个人来说都是一项技能。

They're like, "I can build a system to fix this." That's actually a really good interview guild that I would ask a product ops person and I never came up with it.

他们就像是，“我可以构建一个系统来解决这个问题。”这实际上是一个非常好的面试公会，我会询问产品运营人员，但我从来没有想到过。

I never thought about that before, but it's like, "Tell me about some process or something that you had to do in your job that you really hated and that you ended up just trying to automate a way or build a system around it to make it better." That would be a great interview question for anybody in those roles, I think.

我以前从未想过这个问题，但就像是，“告诉我一些你在工作中必须做的流程或事情，但你真的很讨厌，而你最终只是试图自动化一种方法或围绕它构建一个系统以使其变得更好。”我认为，对于担任这些职位的任何人来说，这都是一个很好的面试问题。

Melissa Perri: With the user and market insights person too, there's not a ton of people out there doing this, but there is a little research ops movement out there that I think could be really valuable here.

Melissa Perri：对于用户和市场洞察人员来说，没有很多人在做这件事，但有一些研究运营运动，我认为这可能非常有价值。

So Jen Cardello, who is our case study on Fidelity, she runs their user insights team there and she's our VP of, I think it's user insights and she does oversee all the user researchers as well, but she also oversees a research ops team, and the research ops team is responsible for building their participant database.

Jen Cardello 是我们在 Fidelity 的案例研究，她管理着他们的用户洞察团队，她是我们的副总裁，我认为这是用户洞察，她也监督所有用户研究人员，但她还监督一个研究运营团队，研究运营团队负责建立他们的参与者数据库。

They also help build toolkits for people to do user research.

他们还帮助构建工具包供人们进行用户研究。

They oversee any of the user research tools.

他们监督所有的用户研究工具。

They also go out and train other people in doing good user research.

他们还出去培训其他人进行良好的用户研究。

Melissa Perri: So with them, that looks like not everybody's allowed to go talk to customers and financial firms like this because of compliance reasons.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：对于他们来说，出于合规原因，看起来并不是每个人都被允许与客户和金融公司进行这样的交谈。

They make sure they certify people to be able to go do good research up to certain points and they get levels for how far they can go so that they can democratize the research and help put it into their hands.

他们确保证明人们能够在一定程度上进行良好的研究，并获得他们可以走多远的水平，以便他们可以使研究民主化并帮助将其交到他们手中。

Then if there's compliant issues around different research studies, they come back to Jen's team and the user researchers will help them complete it.

然后，如果不同的研究存在合规问题，他们会回到 Jen 的团队，用户研究人员将帮助他们完成。

Melissa Perri: So it's about how we ...

梅丽莎·佩里：所以这是关于我们如何......

There's a lot of legal things about what you can say and what you can't say to customers and stuff like that, what you can ask them, and they're navigating those complexities around there.

有很多关于你可以对客户说什么、不能说什么以及类似的事情，你可以问他们什么，他们正在解决这些复杂的问题。

So Jen comes from a research ops background.

Jen 来自研究运营背景。

She comes from a whole UX background, but research ops is her thing and she's fantastic at setting up that stuff.

她拥有完整的用户体验背景，但研究运营是她的专长，而且她非常擅长设置这些东西。

She and I worked together at Athenahealth and she did that there.

她和我在 Athenahealth 一起工作，她在那里做到了这一点。

So I watched her put that into place and it was amazing and now she does it at Fidelity.

所以我看着她把它落实到位，这真是太神奇了，现在她在富达也做到了这一点。

Melissa Perri: So if you find somebody with that background, golden, but if you find somebody who ...

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：所以如果你找到一个有这种背景的人，那就太好了，但是如果你找到一个......

If you can't find somebody like Jen because there's only one Jen, you should look for somebody who has at least a user research background, probably some UX background.

如果你因为只有一位 Jen 而找不到像 Jen 这样的人，那么你应该寻找至少具有用户研究背景（可能有一些 UX 背景）的人。

They're really good at doing that and they want to operationalize it.

他们真的很擅长这样做，并且希望将其付诸实施。

Lenny: Jen's about to get a bunch of LinkedIn requests too.

Lenny：Jen 也即将收到大量 LinkedIn 请求。

Lenny: I feel like the research team is going to hate people now for pulling you into product ops.

莱尼：我觉得研究团队现在会讨厌那些把你拉进产品运营的人。

Who would you suggest product ops report to generally at least to start?

您建议产品运营人员至少在开始时向谁汇报？

Lenny: Such a clear, quick answer.

莱尼：答案如此清晰、迅速。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

How do they find time to train and work with this person?

他们如何找到时间与这个人一起培训和工作？

Are they the right-hand person that helps them just make everything more efficient?

他们是帮助他们提高一切效率的得力助手吗？

What's a way?

有什么办法呢？

What's that relationship like?

那关系是怎样的？

Melissa Perri: I think definitely their right-hand person, and we say to a lot of CPOs, especially high growth companies, "Make your first hire just a product ops person to help you get this data out and start looking at it," because that helps them with board meetings, it helps them set strategy.

Melissa Perri：我认为绝对是他们的得力助手，我们对很多 CPO，尤其是高增长公司说，“让你的第一个员工只是一名产品运营人员，帮助你获取这些数据并开始研究它”，因为这有助于他们召开董事会会议，帮助他们制定战略。

Usually when you walk into a growth stage company, that's the first thing that you need to do is make sure that it's working, that you need to set it.

通常，当你走进一家成长阶段的公司时，你需要做的第一件事就是确保它正在发挥作用，你需要对其进行设置。

Typically, when you're getting hired, there's usually a strategy problem and that person, they're like your right-hand man trying to operationalize that.

通常，当你被录用时，通常会遇到一个策略问题，而那个人，他们就像你的得力助手，试图将其付诸实施。

So I definitely think that you're going to be guiding them there.

所以我绝对认为你会引导他们到达那里。

Melissa Perri: I think this comes back to our question though about, do you hire somebody with experience or do you hire somebody who's new to it?

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：我认为这又回到了我们的问题，你会雇用有经验的人还是雇用新手？

If you as a CPO don't have a lot of time to train up somebody on product ops because you've got 8,000 fires to fight, then hire somebody with experience who knows how to do it and operationalize it.

如果您作为首席产品官，没有太多时间对某人进行产品运营培训，因为您有 8,000 起火灾需要扑灭，那么请聘请有经验、知道如何做到这一点并实施的人。

If you are like, "My biggest issue is business data and insights," for example, "and I just need to get my data so that I can do the strategy pieces and then I need to think through and work through what I want product ops to look like," maybe then you just hire the data analyst.

例如，如果你说，“我最大的问题是业务数据和洞察力”，“我只需要获取数据，以便我可以制定策略，然后我需要仔细思考并研究我想要的产品运营是什么样的”，那么也许你只需聘请数据分析师即可。

If they're confident in the data analysis piece, it's pretty easy, I haven't done this myself, to teach them about what types of information you need to see as a product person.

如果他们对数据分析部分有信心，那么很容易教他们作为产品人员需要查看哪些类型的信息，我自己还没有这样做过。

They're going to need a lot more handholding at the beginning because they're not going to know all the different cuts of data, but it's not an investment of an inordinate amount of time to be able to get something valuable back.

他们在开始时需要更多的指导，因为他们不会知道所有不同的数据片段，但这并不是为了获得有价值的东西而投入过多的时间。

Melissa Perri: It's not like training for 40 hours a week and then waiting six months to see results.

Melissa Perri：这不像每周训练 40 小时，然后等待六个月才能看到结果。

It's more about, "I need you to go pull these types of cuts.

更重要的是，“我需要你去进行这些类型的削减。

Here's why.

原因如下。

Let me explain to you this so that you learn it and then you can think about it next time," but that's going to help you there too.

让我向你解释一下，以便你学习，然后你下次就可以思考它，”但这也会对你有所帮助。

So I think it really depends.

所以我认为这真的取决于。

So how fast you need product ops fully rolled out and then how much time you have to train people, and then where you're starting from there and how big and how much buy-in you have to grow this thing from the get-go.

因此，你需要以多快的速度全面推出产品运营，然后你需要花多少时间来培训人员，然后你从哪里开始，以及你必须从一开始就发展这个东西有多大和多少支持。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Maybe as a last question, I'd love to go through a quick case study of a company you worked with and just share maybe how you rolled it out, what you ran into, challenges you had to overcome, and maybe the benefits and impact that adding this role had.

也许作为最后一个问题，我很想对您合作过的一家公司进行快速案例研究，并分享一下您是如何推出它的，您遇到了什么，您必须克服的挑战，以及添加这个角色所带来的好处和影响。

Melissa Perri: When I was at Athenahealth, we were doing a ...

Melissa Perri：当我在 Athenahealth 时，我们正在做一个......

Athenahealth has always been a software company, so let me put it that way, but they didn't have a formal product management role and they had just implemented it when I came in.

Athenahealth 一直是一家软件公司，所以让我这样说，但他们没有正式的产品管理角色，当我进来时他们刚刚实施了它。

So the chief product officer brought me in.

所以首席产品官把我带了进来。

He did not have an extensive product background, so he said, "I need to train all these product people and figure out what to do with this organization." So I came in to help him do that.

他没有广泛的产品背景，所以他说，“我需要培训所有这些产品人员，并弄清楚如何处理这个组织。”所以我进来帮助他做到这一点。

We had over 360 product managers.

我们有超过 360 名产品经理。

We had 5,000 software developers there and it was a massive platform, $8 billion in market cap, I think, electronic health record system.

我们那里有 5,000 名软件开发人员，这是一个巨大的平台，我认为电子健康记录系统的市值为 80 亿美元。

Melissa Perri: So this is where I started to realize we needed product ops.

Melissa Perri：所以这是我开始意识到我们需要产品运营的地方。

This was me discovering this.

这是我发现的。

So I'll tell you how we rolled it out and probably what we would do differently next time, but we had trained all the product managers.

因此，我将告诉您我们如何推出它，以及下次我们可能会采取哪些不同的做法，但我们已经培训了所有产品经理。

People were starting to use a lot of the things that we were teaching, and we saw that the maturity was getting a lot better in the organization, which was fantastic, but then we started to run into these problems, and these problems that we found could not be solved by just training product managers, and that's where the concept for product ops came up.

人们开始使用我们教授的很多东西，我们看到组织的成熟度变得更好，这太棒了，但随后我们开始遇到这些问题，我们发现这些问题不能仅通过培训产品经理来解决，这就是产品运营概念的出现。

Melissa Perri: We also realized we had way too many product managers, just way too many product managers.

Melissa Perri：我们还意识到我们有太多的产品经理，太多的产品经理。

There was one person reporting into one person all the way down, and we were like, "This is not helpful." So we ended up training everybody, teaching people about what the role was, and then thinking through as we encounter these other problems, "What else do we need besides product managers?" Product ops became one of the things.

一路上都是一个人向一个人汇报，我们的反应是：“这没有帮助。”因此，我们最终对每个人进行了培训，教人们这个角色是什么，然后在遇到其他问题时进行思考，“除了产品经理，我们还需要什么？”产品运营成为其中之一。

We also had people actually move out of product management into other roles.

我们还让人们实际上从产品管理转到其他角色。

We had people become data analysts, we had people become user researchers, we had people go into other parts of the organization, but a lot of people after we trained them actually just self-selected out of product management and some of them did come to us and say, "What else is there?"

我们让人们成为数据分析师，我们让人们成为用户研究人员，我们让人们进入组织的其他部门，但很多人在我们培训之后实际上只是自我选择脱离产品管理，其中一些人确实来找我们说，“还有什么？”

Melissa Perri: When we looked at the product ops role, we said, "Okay.

Melissa Perri：当我们研究产品运营角色时，我们说，“好吧。

What are the big fires that we have to fight that's just not from a lack of skills perspective?" That's a big part about product ops.

除了缺乏技能的角度之外，我们必须扑灭哪些大火？”这是产品运营的一个重要部分。

It's not a replacement for product managers or product leaders not having product management skills.

它不能替代不具备产品管理技能的产品经理或产品领导者。

It's to help skilled product managers and product leaders do their job better.

它是为了帮助熟练的产品经理和产品领导者更好地完成他们的工作。

So this will never replace the fact that people don't have the skills to do their job.

因此，这永远无法取代人们不具备完成工作所需技能的事实。

Melissa Perri: So where we ran into issues was, one, getting insights back to the executives on what the teams were actually doing.

Melissa Perri：所以我们遇到的问题是，第一，让高管了解团队实际在做什么。

So the CEO and I were sitting there trying to set strategy and set the vision for the company and I was helping him formulate it into written form and help him deploy it and think through where we want it to go.

因此，首席执行官和我坐在那里试图制定公司的战略和愿景，我正在帮助他将其制定为书面形式，并帮助他部署它并思考我们希望它走向何方。

He was in Jira, digging around in Jira trying to find information on what people were working on, and I was like, "You're not going to find that in Jira, especially when we've got hundreds of thousands of tickets for 5,000 people.

他在 Jira 中，在 Jira 中挖掘，试图找到有关人们正在做什么的信息，而我当时想，“你在 Jira 中找不到这些信息，尤其是当我们为 5,000 人提供了数十万张门票时。

You're not going to find this in there."

你不会在那里找到这个。”

Melissa Perri: That started to show me, "Hey, he's looking for this.

梅丽莎·佩里：这开始告诉我，“嘿，他正在寻找这个。

What do you want to see?" He's looking for a portfolio roadmap of what everybody's doing and he wanted to see what are the big pushes we're making from a feature perspective and how do they tie back to our overall strategy and our goals.

你想看什么？”他正在寻找每个人正在做的事情的投资组合路线图，他想从功能的角度了解我们正在做出哪些重大推动，以及它们如何与我们的整体战略和目标联系起来。

What's going to help our retention?

什么可以帮助我们留住人才？

What's going to help us get new customers?

什么可以帮助我们获得新客户？

What's going to help us move into the enterprise, which was a big thing we were doing going upmarket into hospitals?

什么可以帮助我们进入企业，这是我们进入高端市场医院所做的一件大事？

We had no transparency into the allocation of R&D on that and also the roadmaps on that.

我们对此的研发分配以及路线图都没有透明度。

Melissa Perri: So one of the things that we were trying to do in product ops was build that view, try to figure out how we get people to put the right information into Jira at the right level.

Melissa Perri：因此，我们在产品运营中尝试做的事情之一就是构建该视图，尝试弄清楚如何让人们在正确的级别将正确的信息放入 Jira 中。

So we actually had to train people on how to write ...

所以我们实际上必须培训人们如何写作......

At the time, we only had Jira, so epics in Jira that were not just build a button, they were more substantial than that.

当时，我们只有 Jira，所以 Jira 中的史诗不仅仅是构建一个按钮，它们比这更重要。

They actually had to meet behind it so we could look at it.

他们实际上必须在它后面见面，这样我们才能看到它。

Then we had to go out and find the right software to roll that up into a portfolio view so the executives could get the insights they were looking for.

然后我们必须出去寻找合适的软件将其汇总到投资组合视图中，以便管理人员能够获得他们正在寻找的见解。

Melissa Perri: We also had to build a way to track the OKRs that were deployed and actually see where it was.

Melissa Perri：我们还必须建立一种方法来跟踪已部署的 OKR，并实际查看其位置。

So we had to build the dashboards for that.

所以我们必须为此构建仪表板。

So we started there and that became really important because that was a big issue was just the executive visibility, how do we make consistent roadmaps across the organizations, how do we get visibility into what's going on.

所以我们从这里开始，这变得非常重要，因为这是一个大问题，就是高管的可见性，我们如何在整个组织中制定一致的路线图，我们如何了解正在发生的事情。

As we started to identify more and more things, we said, "We're a huge team.

当我们开始确定越来越多的事情时，我们说：“我们是一个庞大的团队。

We should actually have somebody overseeing this."

我们实际上应该有人监督这件事。”

Melissa Perri: Data and insights was a really big issue in the company in general, and we knew we had to instrument things better, and at the time, they brought in Amplitude and they were starting to put an Amplitude everywhere in the organization, but it wasn't fully rolled out yet.

Melissa Perri：总体而言，数据和洞察力是公司的一个非常大的问题，我们知道我们必须更好地工具化事物，当时，他们引入了 Amplitude，并开始在组织中的各个地方放置 Amplitude，但尚未完全推出。

So we had these people who were going around trying to help the individual product teams get the information out of Amplitude and we said, "We need this to be more of a consistent thing, a consistent program."

因此，我们有这些人四处走动，试图帮助各个产品团队从 Amplitude 中获取信息，我们说，“我们需要这成为一个更加一致的东西，一个一致的计划。”

Melissa Perri: So that sparked the need for having our first product operations leader.

Melissa Perri：这引发了我们对第一位产品运营负责人的需求。

So we ended up creating a VP of product operations and somebody moved from the product management role into that.

因此，我们最终设立了一名产品运营副总裁，并有人从产品管理职位调任该职位。

She was much more of a process type person.

她更像是一个注重过程的人。

She wanted to really help arm the teams into being able to get good data out there, but she understood product management well enough where she knew how all this stuff worked and she wanted to create the systems internally.

她真的想帮助团队获得良好的数据，但她对产品管理有足够的了解，她知道所有这些东西是如何工作的，并且她想在内部创建系统。

Melissa Perri: So reporting into her, we had a business data and insights team that was overseeing Amplitude rollout and they were also putting people around the director level overseeing usually five to let's say eight Scrum teams on the director level, sometimes smaller just depending on the product.

Melissa Perri：所以向她汇报，我们有一个业务数据和洞察团队负责监督 Amplitude 的推出，他们还安排了总监级别的人员来监督通常是 5 个甚至 8 个总监级别的 Scrum 团队，有时规模较小，具体取决于产品。

We had a business data and insights person embedded at that level to help get the ad hoc reports out now because we weren't well-instrumented.

我们在该级别配备了一名业务数据和洞察人员，帮助我们立即发布临时报告，因为我们没有充分的工具。

We said, "We're still making the programs and the shared services at the top level, but these people need to make decisions today.

我们说，“我们仍在高层制定计划和共享服务，但这些人今天需要做出决定。

So how do we get them to do that?" So she oversaw that team.

那么我们如何让他们这样做呢？”所以她负责监督这个团队。

She had somebody directed there.

她派人指示她去那里。

Melissa Perri: then we also had the people looking at the portfolio views and the governance and the rollout and the rollout of that getting put into that as well.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：然后我们还让人们研究了投资组合的观点、治理以及部署和部署，这些都被纳入其中。

So that helped us get going with that.

所以这帮助我们继续下去。

On the other side, so this didn't fall under product operations at the time, but like I said, Jen Cardello was doing research ops there and leading this team around the user insights.

另一方面，当时这并不属于产品运营的范畴，但就像我说的，Jen Cardello 在那里进行研究操作，并围绕用户洞察领导这个团队。

She got the participant database out.

她把参与者数据库拿出来了。

That was fantastic.

那太棒了。

She got out a bunch of different user research tools.

她拿出了一堆不同的用户研究工具。

They made a design systems database too that helped us be able to do prototyping a lot faster and have consistent design processes, which was amazing.

他们还制作了一个设计系统数据库，帮助我们能够更快地进行原型设计并拥有一致的设计流程，这真是太棒了。

Melissa Perri: The head of UX reported into the chief product officer.

Melissa Perri：用户体验主管向首席产品官汇报。

So it still fell under the CPO, but it reported into the head of UX on that side and that was totally fine because we just collaborated with them pretty much all the time.

所以它仍然属于 CPO 的管辖，但它向那边的 UX 负责人报告，这完全没问题，因为我们几乎一直与他们合作。

So that's how we started to roll it out and get going and that's where that need was and it became so much better to get the insights that we needed out there.

这就是我们开始推出并开始实施的方式，这就是需求所在，并且更好地获得我们需要的见解。

Melissa Perri: Then what happened was, actually, Athenahealth at this time, it was really wild and private.

Melissa Perri：然后发生的事情是，实际上，Athenahealth 此时，它真的很狂野且私密。

So this is where I left and a lot of leaders left at the same time, but they ended up restructuring it and they actually kept the product ops team.

所以这就是我离开的地方，很多领导者同时离开，但他们最终重组了它，并且实际上保留了产品运营团队。

So now, Tim Davenport oversees product ops team.

现在，蒂姆·达文波特负责监督产品运营团队。

He was the chief of staff for the chief product officer at the time and he's been building it, again, taking the stuff that worked and then building onto it, and they're actually one of our key studies in the book as well about what Tim's doing now and how he's orchestrated as well to help with opex and capex and accounting type issues that they were having too.

他当时是首席产品官的幕僚长，他一直在构建它，再次采用有效的东西，然后在其基础上进行构建，它们实际上也是我们在书中的关键研究之一，以及关于蒂姆现在在做什么以及他如何精心策划以帮助解决他们也遇到的运营支出和资本支出以及会计类型问题。

Melissa Perri: So Athenahealth has been through many different restructurings since I've been there, but they have always kept product ops and their current chief product officer said that he will never go anywhere else that doesn't have product ops.

Melissa Perri：自从我加入以来，Athenahealth 经历了许多不同的重组，但他们始终保留产品运营，他们现任的首席产品官表示，他永远不会去任何没有产品运营的地方。

That's how much he believes in it.

他对此深信不疑。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

What a testament to the value of product ops, 100% retention on the role through all these transitions.

在所有这些转变中 100% 保留该角色，这充分证明了产品运营的价值。

One of the interesting things you said is within this VP of product ops managed a bunch of different people and teams, which is really interesting because I always imagine product ops VP would manage product ops people.

你说的一件有趣的事情是，在这位产品运营副总裁管理着一群不同的人和团队，这真的很有趣，因为我总是想象产品运营副总裁会管理产品运营人员。

Is that common where they lead, say, there's a data team you mentioned and a few other team?

在他们领导的地方，比如你提到的一个数据团队和其他一些团队，这种情况很常见吗？

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

In this case, we did have her managing the business data and insights people and they were data analysts.

在这种情况下，我们确实让她管理业务数据和洞察人员，他们是数据分析师。

I wouldn't say they were data engineers or anything like that, but there were people who were really good at pulling SQL and analyzing data from a product perspective.

我不会说他们是数据工程师或类似的人，但有些人非常擅长从产品角度提取 SQL 和分析数据。

We actually moved.

我们确实搬家了。

I should say this as well.

我也应该这么说。

We moved a lot of people who didn't want to be product managers but were good at that out of the role and into that role.

我们把很多不想成为产品经理但擅长这个职位的人调离了这个职位，又调到了这个职位上。

So they had some product background, they had been trained in product, they were really good at the data pieces, but they were more suited for that than they were suited for product management.

所以他们有一些产品背景，他们接受过产品培训，他们非常擅长数据部分，但他们更适合这一点，而不是产品管理。

Like I said, a lot of people opted out.

就像我说的，很多人选择退出。

They were like, "Get me out of this role.

他们就像是，“让我离开这个角色。

I don't want to do this." They wanted more of a transactional type role or diving into data, and a lot of it came down to I think people under anticipate how much they're going to have to deal with stakeholders, and once they have to, they're like, "Oh, God, I don't want to do this," and I see that over and over again when it happens with product management.

我不想这样做。”他们想要更多的事务型角色或深入研究数据，这很大程度上取决于我认为人们低估了他们将需要与利益相关者打交道的程度，一旦他们不得不这样做，他们就会说，“哦，上帝，我不想这样做，”当产品管理发生这种情况时，我一遍又一遍地看到这种情况。

Melissa Perri: So she oversaw them, but they did work closely with the data people on the CTO side.

Melissa Perri：所以她负责监督他们，但他们确实与 CTO 方面的数据人员密切合作。

There was a whole data team on the CTO side who were doing more of the database administration and the instrumentation of things.

CTO 方面有一个完整的数据团队，他们负责更多的数据库管理和仪器仪表工作。

They were also helping to roll out Amplitude, instrument it correctly, and building the right views and things like Amplitudes or the other product analytics or other tools that they were using.

他们还帮助推出 Amplitude，正确地对其进行检测，并构建正确的视图以及 Amplitude 或其他产品分析或他们正在使用的其他工具等内容。

We did not have Tableau at the time.

我们当时还没有 Tableau。

That was something that was added later, but they were in charge of utilizing the data and trying to build those insights.

这是后来添加的，但他们负责利用数据并尝试建立这些见解。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've never done this with two people.

我从来没有和两个人一起做过这种事。

We'll see how it goes.

我们会看看事情进展如何。

So you can pick the question you want to take or both answer.

因此，您可以选择您想要回答的问题或同时回答。

Here we go.

开始了。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Denise Tilles: I'll take that.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：我会接受的。

Of course, Escaping the Build Trap.

当然，逃离构建陷阱。

It's true.

这是真的。

Denise Tilles: Another one that I recommend is called Traffic.

Denise Tilles：我推荐的另一款叫做《Traffic》。

It came out this year by Ben Smith, around the invention and growth of HuffPo and Gawker and whatnot.

它是今年由本·史密斯 (Ben Smith) 推出的，围绕赫芬顿邮报 (HuffPo) 和高客网 (Gawker) 等网站的发明和发展展开。

I was in media at Condé Nast then, so peripherally part of it.

那时我在康泰纳仕从事媒体工作，所以只是其中的一部分。

It's an exciting ride that has an ending that we all know, but it's a good story, good tale.

这是一次激动人心的旅程，结局众所周知，但这是一个好故事，好故事。

Melissa Perri: The Art of Action I think is a fantastic book on strategy and I always recommend this to people and it's out of the realm.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：《行动的艺术》我认为这是一本关于战略的精彩书籍，我总是向人们推荐这本书，但它超出了我的想象。

There's a lot of great product management books out there too, but I like this one because it's a sleeper hit, I think, in the product management community.

那里也有很多很棒的产品管理书籍，但我喜欢这本，因为我认为它在产品管理社区中很受欢迎。

It is a fantastic description of deploying strategy and how you can tell if strategy is well-deployed in organizations or if there's gaps that you need to fill.

这是对部署策略以及如何判断组织中策略是否部署良好或者是否存在需要填补的空白的精彩描述。

So I find that when people read it, they go, "Oh, my God, we have all of these problems," and I'm like, "Yup, that's a strategy deployment and strategy creation problem.

所以我发现当人们读到它时，他们会说，“哦，天哪，我们遇到了所有这些问题，”我说，“是的，这是一个战略部署和战略创建的问题。

That's pretty apparent." So that's my favorite book to recommend to people.

这非常明显。”这是我最喜欢向人们推荐的书。

I love Theresa Torres' Continuous Discovery Habits.

我喜欢特蕾莎·托雷斯不断探索的习惯。

Fantastic book as well, just to give a shout out in the product world too.

这本书也很棒，只是为了在产品世界中大声喊叫。

Lenny: Next question, favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

莱尼：下一个问题，您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Denise Tilles: Deutschland 82, 86, 89.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：德国 82、86、89。

It's on Hulu.

它在葫芦上。

Highly recommend it, about East Germany.

强烈推荐它，关于东德。

Melissa Perri: I am going to go ...

梅丽莎·佩里：我要去……

I just watched the House of Usher on Netflix.

我刚刚在 Netflix 上观看了《亚瑟屋》。

I love the ...

我喜欢...

It's Halloween right now.

现在是万圣节。

Well, it was just Halloween.

好吧，那只是万圣节。

Melissa Perri: So I was watching all the scary movies, but I love the Netflix genre of everything from the Haunting of Hill House.

梅丽莎·佩里：我看了所有恐怖电影，但我喜欢 Netflix 类型的《鬼屋》中的所有内容。

Those were great.

那些都很棒。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I started watching that and then I gave up quickly, but I should give it another chance.

我开始看，然后很快就放弃了，但我应该再给它一次机会。

My wife and I have been stuck on Love is Blind.

我和我的妻子一直被《爱是盲目的》困住了。

Classic.

经典的。

Lenny: What a terrible, wonderful show.

莱尼：多么糟糕却又精彩的表演。

Lenny: Next question, do you have a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask when you're hiring people?

莱尼：下一个问题是，你在招聘员工时最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Denise Tilles: When was the last time you changed your mind about something really important and why?

Denise Tilles：您最后一次对真正重要的事情改变主意是什么时候？为什么？

So do they have a learning mindset?

那么他们有学习心态吗？

Do they have self-awareness?

他们有自我意识吗？

Can they acknowledge where they were and how they evolved?

他们能承认自己在哪里以及如何进化吗？

So that's usually a pretty insightful question.

所以这通常是一个非常有洞察力的问题。

Melissa Perri: Mine's probably tell me about a time that you failed and what happened.

梅丽莎·佩里：我的可能会告诉我你失败的一次以及发生了什么。

That one's an interesting one too because if nobody has an example of a time that they failed, that right there is an interesting sign.

这也很有趣，因为如果没有人举出他们失败的例子，那就有一个有趣的迹象。

Two, I feel like everybody tries to turn it into a positive story.

第二，我觉得每个人都试图把它变成一个积极的故事。

They really try to spin it and I'm like, "I don't even want you to spin it.

他们真的试图旋转它，我就像，“我什至不想让你旋转它。

I just want to tell me what you learned." It's fine to say what you learned at the end of that.

我只是想告诉我你学到了什么。”最好说出你最后学到了什么。

I think that's okay, but they're like, "Oh, but this happened and all these things were great afterwards," and I'm like, "I'm not looking for a fantastic outcome.

我认为这没关系，但他们会说，“哦，但这件事发生了，之后所有这些事情都很棒，”我说，“我并不是在寻找一个美妙的结果。

I'm just looking for did you fail and did you learn something from it."

我只是在寻找你是否失败了以及你是否从中学到了一些东西。”

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：你最近发现有没有一款你真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Melissa Perri: Well, there's one I'm going to have to plug.

Melissa Perri：嗯，我得插上一个。

It's not that I recently discovered it, but I talked about all the issues that we had at Athenahealth with the portfolio management system, and after that, I discovered Dragon Boat and I'm now on their advisory board, but it helped me solve that problem.

并不是我最近发现的，而是我谈论了我们在 Athenahealth 的投资组合管理系统遇到的所有问题，之后我发现了 Dragon Boat，现在我是他们的顾问委员会成员，但它帮助我解决了这个问题。

So much of rolling up everything that was in Jira sits on top of it and being able to look at it in a great view.

将 Jira 中的所有内容都卷起来放在它上面，并且能够以良好的视图查看它。

So that was so, so good.

就这样，太好了。

Melissa Perri: Another one that I have not been involved with but that I just really love because I think they're doing great things with, again, in the product ops world, is Dovetail and they are a research repository out there and they're also putting AI on top of it to help generate insights into all the research that's been done.

Melissa Perri：另一个我没有参与过但我真的很喜欢的公司是 Dovetail，因为我认为他们在产品运营领域做了很棒的事情，他们是一个研究资源库，他们还在其之上添加了人工智能，以帮助生成对所有已完成研究的见解。

I have no affiliation with Dovetail, but I really love what they're doing because I've had that problem of us rolling our own research repository over and over and over again, and now we've got a tool out there to do it.

我与 Dovetail 没有任何关系，但我真的很喜欢他们所做的事情，因为我曾经遇到过我们一遍又一遍地滚动我们自己的研究存储库的问题，现在我们有了一个工具可以做到这一点。

Denise Tilles: I guess the one I would mention is Vistali, and some product leaders that I'm working with right now are playing around with it, and it's an interesting tool that's a single workspace that you can connect your strategy and discovery and delivery visually and guides people along those paths as well.

Denise Tilles：我想我要提到的就是 Vistali，现在与我合作的一些产品负责人正在使用它，这是一个有趣的工具，它是一个单一的工作区，您可以将您的策略​​、发现和交付以可视化方式连接起来，并引导人们沿着这些路径前进。

So interested to play with it more, but it piqued my interest.

很有兴趣更多地玩它，但它激起了我的兴趣。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, often share with someone, come back to often to help either with work or with life?

Lenny：你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，你经常对自己重复，经常与某人分享，经常回来对工作或生活有所帮助？

Denise Tilles: Mine's both, especially with teams that I'm working with or cross-functional stakeholders that if you try to serve everybody, you serve no one.

Denise Tilles：我的都是，尤其是与我合作的团队或跨职能利益相关者，如果你试图为所有人服务，那么你就没有为任何人服务。

So it's about honing in on who you're actually building your product for, who your persona is, and then with my children in terms of try to be everyone's friend, but it may not happen.

所以，关键是要磨练你的产品实际上是为谁打造的，你的角色是谁，然后与我的孩子们一起努力成为每个人的朋友，但这可能不会发生。

So it goes both ways.

所以这是双向的。

Melissa Perri: What's the worst that can happen with most of the things that I've done?

Melissa Perri：我所做的大部分事情可能发生的最糟糕的情况是什么？

To me when I get scared about something or trying to do something or even interpersonal reactions where I'm like, "God, I have to have this hard conversation with this person," my brain, I try to tell myself, "What's the worst that can happen?" Usually when you sit down and start to think about it, it's not as bad as you anticipate.

对我来说，当我害怕某件事或试图做某事，甚至是人际反应时，我会想，“上帝，我必须与这个人进行艰难的对话，”我的大脑，我试图告诉自己，“可能发生的最糟糕的情况是什么？”通常当你坐下来开始思考时，事情并没有你想象的那么糟糕。

So for me, that's always helped me manage my anxiety around difficult situations or taking a leap and trying to get out there.

所以对我来说，这总是帮助我控制我在困难情况下的焦虑，或者跳跃并试图摆脱困境。

I think in my younger days, I was a little crippled by overthinking and by being too anxious about things and not taking big leaps.

我想在我年轻的时候，我因过度思考和对事情过于焦虑而没有迈出大的一步，所以有点残废。

So I've tried to stick by that and keep asking myself, "What's the worst that can happen?" and it's usually not as bad as you think it is.

所以我努力坚持这一点，并不断问自己：“可能发生的最坏的情况是什么？”而且它通常没有你想象的那么糟糕。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Final question, since there's two of you, we'll end in a really sweet way.

最后一个问题，既然你们两个人，我们将以一种非常甜蜜的方式结束。

What's one thing you really admire about each other?

你们彼此真正欣赏的一件事是什么？

Denise Tilles: Melissa is a legend, but behind the legend, she's just a really great collaborative person.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：梅丽莎是一个传奇，但在传奇的背后，她是一个非常善于合作的人。

So of course, we got to know each other really well writing this book together.

当然，我们在共同撰写这本书时彼此非常了解。

We worked together before that, but it was a really great way of staying connected to a former colleague, someone in the industry.

在那之前我们曾一起工作过，但这是与前同事、业内人士保持联系的好方法。

Especially during COVID, it was a really great way of building towards something that was bigger than the both of us.

尤其是在新冠疫情期间，这是一种非常好的方式，可以帮助我们实现比我们俩更大的目标。

So what I love about her is that she's really revered by so many folks, but really approachable and really truly wants to help people.

所以我喜欢她的一点是，她确实受到了很多人的尊敬，但她非常平易近人，并且非常真诚地想要帮助人们。

Melissa Perri: Thanks, Denise.

梅丽莎·佩里： 谢谢，丹尼斯。

What I love about Denise is she's really this calming, patient presence and she approaches everything with so much professionalism, but also can really get to the meat of the problem, help calm down certain situations where escalated, turn them around, and she's got this patience and calm about her in everything that she does that helps you focus, helps you concentrate on the big issues and she can really steer people in the right direction.

我喜欢丹尼斯的地方在于，她真的很冷静、耐心，她以如此专业的态度处理所有事情，但也能真正抓住问题的实质，帮助平息某些升级的情况，扭转局面，她在所做的每一件事上都有耐心和冷静，帮助你集中注意力，帮助你专注于大问题，她真的可以引导人们走向正确的方向。

So to me, I've always admired watching her coach and lead people.

所以对我来说，我一直很欣赏她指导和领导别人。

She led her analysts at Produx Labs as well.

她还领导 Produx Labs 的分析师。

When things would go slightly awry or a situation would go out of hand, Denise was always like, "Nope, we'll just fix it," and dove in and was able to make it better.

当事情出现轻微问题或情况失控时，丹尼斯总是会说，“不，我们会解决它”，然后全身心投入并能够让事情变得更好。

I always really appreciated that.

我一直非常欣赏这一点。

Denise Tilles: Oh, shocks.

丹尼斯·蒂尔斯：哦，震惊。

We might've had a few of the what's the worst that could happen moments, right?

我们可能经历过一些可能发生的最糟糕的时刻，对吗？

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

You two are awesome.

你们两个太棒了。

For folks listening, make sure to grab their book, Product Operations.

对于听众来说，请务必阅读他们的书《产品运营》。

You can find it on Amazon, I imagine.

我想你可以在亚马逊上找到它。

Share where else people can find it, but two final questions.

分享人们在哪里可以找到它，但最后还有两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Denise Tilles: Productoperations.com, we've got some downloadables that are available for folks and questions if you want to get in touch with us.

Denise Tilles：Productoperations.com，我们提供了一些可下载的内容，如果您想与我们联系，可以向人们提出问题。

How can they help us?

他们如何帮助我们？

I'm trying to think here.

我在这里试着思考一下。

Melissa Perri: Tell us your stories about product operations.

Melissa Perri：请告诉我们您有关产品运营的故事。

We want to hear how people are implementing it, what's working, what's not working.

我们想听听人们是如何实施它的，什么有效，什么无效。

We're always learning about this too, and I think we said in this book, it's ticking off now, but it's by no means standardized.

我们也一直在学习这一点，我想我们在这本书中说过，它现在正在起步，但它绝不是标准化的。

So we want to hear about what's happening, how has your company been successful or not successful with it, what have you seen work, what have you seen not work.

因此，我们想了解正在发生的事情，您的公司在这方面是如何成功或不成功的，您认为哪些是有效的，哪些是无效的。

So definitely reach out and let us know about it.

所以一定要联系我们并让我们知道这一点。

Also, you can help us by buying the book and leaving us an Amazon review if you do read it because that does help authors and we self-publish this one too, so that always helps us on there.

另外，如果您阅读了这本书，您可以通过购买这本书并给我们留下亚马逊评论来帮助我们，因为这确实对作者有帮助，而且我们也自行出版这本书，因此这总是对我们有帮助。

Melissa Perri: You can find both of us on LinkedIn as well.

Melissa Perri：您也可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我们。

I'm Melissa Jean Perri, I think on, there, but if you look for Melissa Perri, I usually pop up and Denise Tilles.

我是 Melissa Jean Perri，我想，但如果你寻找 Melissa Perri，我通常会出现，还有 Denise Tilles。

Then if you want to contact us, product operations.com, we got a form on there to reach out.

然后，如果您想联系我们，product Operations.com，我们在那里提供了一份表格供您联系。

Lenny: Productoperations.com.

莱尼：Productoperations.com。

Is that the best way to find where to buy the book or are there other sites you recommend people go check it out?

这是查找该书购买地点的最佳方式吗？或者您是否建议人们去查看其他网站？

Melissa Perri: We do.

梅丽莎·佩里：我们愿意。

We just got it.

我们刚刚得到它。

Self-publishing has been fun, but we just got it where it is distributing now to Barnes and Noble and other bookstores.

自助出版很有趣，但我们刚刚拿到它，现在它正在向巴诺书店和其他书店发行。

So you can usually find it on anything, but if you go to the website, it will have the most up-to-date information on where you can find it.

因此，您通常可以在任何东西上找到它，但如果您访问该网站，它会提供有关在哪里可以找到它的最新信息。

Then if you go to your bookstore and some people are against Amazon, so if you go to your bookstore and ask for it, they will be able to order it for you.

然后，如果你去你的书店，有些人反对亚马逊，所以如果你去你的书店索取，他们就能为你订购。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Thank you two for being here.

谢谢两位来到这里。

My pleasure.

我的荣幸。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。