Everything you’ve ever wanted to know about SAFe and the product owner role | Melissa Perri

Lenny Rachitsky: There's this whole concept of SAFe, basically Scaled Agile, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：SAFe 的整个概念，基本上就是规模化敏捷，对吧？

Melissa Perri: Scaled Agile Framework came out of the desire to figure out how do we scale Scrum and different processes.

Melissa Perri：规模化敏捷框架源于我们想要弄清楚如何规模化 Scrum 和不同流程的愿望。

I do not recommend using SAFe.

我不建议使用 SAFe。

Every single person I have talked to who likes SAFe, found success with SAFe, they ended up ripping it up and making it into something else.

我采访过的每一个喜欢 SAFe 的人，都在 SAFe 上取得了成功，但最终他们还是把它撕毁了，改成了别的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: You've been up close and personal with a lot of companies working with product owners, Scaled Agile, and all these things.

Lenny Rachitsky：您与许多与产品负责人、规模化敏捷以及所有这些事情合作的公司进行了密切的个人接触。

Melissa Perri: This product owner role did not emerge from product management as we know it today.

Melissa Perri：正如我们今天所知，这个产品负责人角色并不是从产品管理中出现的。

It was a way to help the developers prioritize what to work on.

这是一种帮助开发人员确定工作优先顺序的方法。

I ended up going to a ton of Agile conferences and speaking about product management, and I started to learn that there was this product owner role in Scrum.

我最终参加了大量的敏捷会议并谈论了产品管理，然后我开始了解到 Scrum 中存在产品负责人角色。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like it's growing.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉它在成长。

More and more companies are adopting this as the way to work.

越来越多的公司正在采用这种工作方式。

Melissa Perri: A lot of large companies turn to Scrum or to the frameworks, and it's because they traditionally didn't grow up building software.

Melissa Perri：很多大公司转向 Scrum 或框架，这是因为他们传统上并不是在构建软件的过程中成长起来的。

When you look at agile methodologies, what we're really saying there is we want to be able to move quickly and deliver great value to customers.

当您查看敏捷方法时，我们真正想说的是我们希望能够快速行动并为客户提供巨大的价值。

If you embrace those principles, you're going to do well.

如果你遵循这些原则，你就会做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Melissa Perri.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是梅丽莎·佩里。

Melissa is a legend in the product management community.

梅丽莎是产品管理界的传奇人物。

She's the author of the foundational book Escaping the Build Trap, and her most recent book Product Operations.

她是基础著作《逃离构建陷阱》和最新著作《产品运营》的作者。

She's also the CEO and founder of The Product Institute, which trains product managers at all levels.

她还是产品学院的首席执行官和创始人，该学院负责培训各级产品经理。

She's trained PMs at almost every Fortune 500 company at this point, and in our conversation we dive deep into a topic that I don't spend a lot of time on on this podcast, product owners, Scrum, Scaled Agile, and building product at very large non-tech companies.

目前，她已经在几乎所有财富 500 强公司培训过 PM，在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了一个我在这个播客上没有花太多时间讨论的话题：产品负责人、Scrum、规模化敏捷以及在非常大的非科技公司构建产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Melissa shares the history behind these ways of working, what she's seen work and not work when companies roll out these frameworks, and most importantly what you can do as a leader at one of these companies and as a product owner working in one of these companies to level up your organization and yourself.

Lenny Rachitsky：梅丽莎分享了这些工作方式背后的历史，当公司推出这些框架时，她认为什么有效，什么无效，最重要的是，作为这些公司之一的领导者和在这些公司之一工作的产品负责人，您可以做些什么来提升您的组织和您自己。

I learned a ton from this conversation and I'm really curious to hear what you think since we don't cover this kind of stuff on this podcast too much.

我从这次谈话中学到了很多东西，我真的很想听听你的想法，因为我们在这个播客上并没有过多介绍此类内容。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Melissa Perri.

接下来，我为您带来梅丽莎·佩里。

Melissa, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

梅丽莎，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Melissa Perri: Thanks, Lenny.

梅丽莎·佩里：谢谢，莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny Rachitsky: First, let me give a little context on this conversation that we're having.

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，让我介绍一下我们正在进行的这次谈话的背景。

I think it's going to be a little bit unique.

我认为它会有点独特。

I was doing a deep dive on the job market in tech, and I saw something that was really surprising to me that the product owner role was the third-fastest growing role in tech, and this was just in the US, the data I was looking at, but I think it's probably true broadly.

我当时正在深入研究科技领域的就业市场，我发现了一些让我感到非常惊讶的事情，即产品负责人的角色是科技领域增长第三快的角色，而且这只是在美国，我正在查看的数据，但我认为这可能是广泛的事实。

This was extremely surprising to me because I've never worked with a product owner, I don't hear anyone in my circles talking about product owners, I've never wanted to hire a product owner, and it feels like it's just this very different part of the tech ecosystem that you don't hear a lot about on podcasts like this, and it's clearly growing so I felt like it'd be really helpful to spend some time helping people and helping me understand this part of the world.

这让我非常惊讶，因为我从来没有与产品负责人合作过，我没有听到我的圈子里有人谈论产品负责人，我从来不想雇用产品负责人，感觉这只是技术生态系统中非常不同的一部分，你在这样的播客上听不到很多，而且它显然正在增长，所以我觉得花一些时间帮助人们并帮助我了解世界的这一部分真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: I asked you to come on to talk about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我请你来谈谈这个。

You've been up close and personal with a lot of companies working with this way of working with product owners, Scaled Agile and all these things, so I couldn't think of a better person to have on here to help us understand what's happening here, and also just to help people do this better.

您与许多采用这种方式与产品负责人合作、规模化敏捷以及所有这些事情的公司都有过密切的接触，所以我想不出比这更好的人选来帮助我们了解这里发生的事情，并且帮助人们做得更好。

Melissa, thank you again for coming on and helping us understand this.

梅丽莎，再次感谢您的到来并帮助我们理解这一点。

Melissa Perri: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的，我很高兴谈论这个。

I have been really passionate about this topic for many years and I've been talking about it in both agile circles and product management circles, so pretty excited for the listeners to hear what else is going on out there.

多年来我一直对这个话题充满热情，并且我一直在敏捷圈子和产品管理圈子里谈论它，因此对于听众听到其他正在发生的事情感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。

Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?

厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？

With all the tools you need in one simple to use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product, and then turn those insights into action.

Pendo 在一个简单易用的平台中提供了您所需的所有工具，让您可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。

Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.

此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，Pendo 是围绕产品分析构建的，可以了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。

Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.

接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。

Then Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.

然后 Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。

The new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.

Pendo 中的新功能是会话重放，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。

I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.

如今有超过 10,000 家公司在使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。

Visit Pendo.io/lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.

立即访问 Pendo.io/lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。

Yes, you want to take your product-led know-how a step further, check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by talk product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.

是的，如果您想进一步了解以产品为主导的专业知识，请查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由产品专家主持，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。

Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at Pendo.io/lenny.

立即访问 Pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our long-time podcast sponsors.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Hi Christina.

嗨克里斯蒂娜。

Christina Gilbert: Yes, thank you for having me on, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的，谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？

I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, , and Watershed.

我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、 和 Watershed。

I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.

我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。

Christina Gilbert: Yes.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。

We just launched OneSchema FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.

我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。

We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds, and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.

我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。

We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.

我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema, not just to build it, but also to maintain it forever.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好，不仅要构建它，而且要永远维护它。

Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of ad records.

我们已经从少量的广告记录中听到了许多多天停机的恐怖故事。

We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.

我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。

We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.

我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Christina, thank you for joining us, and if you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co, that's oneschema.co.

克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们，如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co，即 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: Before we get into the history, is there just anything broadly that you think might be helpful to share before we dive into the history of the product owner role and all these things?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们深入了解历史之前，在我们深入了解产品负责人角色的历史以及所有这些事情之前，您认为有什么可能有助于分享的内容吗？

Melissa Perri: Maybe it'll help to set some context of where did I see all of this start emerging as well.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：也许这会有助于了解我从哪里看到这一切开始出现的一些背景。

When I started in tech, I was very much a product manager, never heard of the product owner role before in my life.

当我开始从事技术工作时，我在很大程度上是一名产品经理，以前从未听说过产品负责人的角色。

In Escaping the Build Trap I talk a lot about how we used Scrum when I started working with this team in a startup, and it was the first time I ever heard of it.

在《逃离构建陷阱》中，我谈论了很多关于当我开始在初创公司与这个团队合作时我们如何使用 Scrum，这是我第一次听说它。

That was 2011.

那是2011年。

At the time, the person who was teaching me about agile was very like, "Hey, this is flexible.

当时，教我敏捷的人非常喜欢，“嘿，这很灵活。

We're just going to break things into sprints.

我们只是将事情分解为冲刺。

We're going to sit there and actually talk about the work.

我们将坐在那里实际讨论工作。

This is made for us to actually get better at our jobs." We were pretty sold on it and it was never dogmatic.

这是为了让我们真正更好地完成我们的工作。”我们非常相信它，而且它从来都不是教条主义的。

As I worked at other companies, I found that they were being a little more dogmatic with their Scrum, with their stand-ups, how we actually run things.

当我在其他公司工作时，我发现他们对于 Scrum、站立会议以及我们实际的运作方式更加教条。

Melissa Perri: Then I started speaking at conferences, and one of the first conferences I spoke at in New York City was called Lean UX, and there was a bunch of people from the agile world there too.

Melissa Perri：然后我开始在会议上发言，我在纽约参加的第一个会议被称为“精益用户体验”，那里也有一群来自敏捷世界的人。

I learned that this was much bigger than what we were learning in my company and what we were doing in these companies.

我了解到这比我们在公司学到的东西以及我们在这些公司所做的事情要重要得多。

There's this whole group of people out there practicing agile, and I was like, "Oh, this is cool.

有一整群人都在练习敏捷，我当时想，“哦，这太酷了。

I want to learn how to do things better.

我想学习如何把事情做得更好。

Teach me about your philosophies." I ended up going to a ton of agile conferences and speaking about product management.

请教我你的哲学。”我最终参加了大量敏捷会议并谈论产品管理。

Melissa Perri: At the time, people were really excited to hear more about it, and I started to learn that there was this product owner role in Scrum where I was talking more about how we traditionally talk about product management, understand your customer, go out test things, make sure there's a hypothesis, don't just blindly build what you want to build.

Melissa Perri：当时，人们真的很高兴听到更多关于它的信息，我开始了解到 Scrum 中有一个产品负责人角色，我更多地谈论我们传统上如何谈论产品管理，了解你的客户，出去测试东西，确保有一个假设，而不是盲目地构建你想要构建的东西。

I found out that that was not the case in a lot of these companies who are adopting Scrum and introducing a product owner role, so I started doing a lot of trainings through my school product institute and I'd get called into these large companies, all these large banks, probably around 2014, 2015, to help them learn product management.

我发现很多采用 Scrum 并引入产品负责人角色的公司的情况并非如此，所以我开始通过学校的产品学院进行大量培训，我会被叫到这些大公司、所有这些大银行，可能是在 2014 年、2015 年左右，帮助他们学习产品管理。

I was really excited about this because before, they didn't want anything to do with it.

我对此感到非常兴奋，因为以前他们不想与此有任何关系。

They were like, "I don't know what product management is.

他们说，“我不知道什么是产品管理。

I don't need this."

我不需要这个。”

Melissa Perri: I go in to train people and I found that a lot of them had been going through an agile transformation and they had all of these new product owners where they came in and they basically said, "Hey, you're a product owner now.

Melissa Perri：我去培训人员，发现他们中的很多人都在经历敏捷转型，他们进来了所有这些新产品负责人，他们基本上说，“嘿，你现在是产品负责人了。

Your whole role has changed." They came from all different backgrounds.

你的整个角色都变了。”他们来自不同的背景。

Some were developers, so a lot were business people who worked on the banking side, a lot were business analysts, some were project managers, but they just collectively took a bunch of people and said, "Tada, today you're going to be a product owner because we're going to do agile now." I will come in and help train these people.

有些是开发人员，所以很多是在银行方面工作的业务人员，很多是业务分析师，有些是项目经理，但他们只是集体召集了一群人并说：“Tada，今天你将成为产品负责人，因为我们现在要做敏捷。”我会进来帮助培训这些人。

Melissa Perri: What I found was that there was a really big misconception about what those people should be doing compared to what they teach in agile and Scrum versus what we all consider great product management.

Melissa Perri：我发现，与他们在敏捷和 Scrum 中教授的内容相比，与我们都认为优秀的产品管理相比，这些人应该做什么，存在一个非常大的误解。

I've been trying to fill that gap for the last almost 10 years working with these companies here.

在过去近十年与这些公司合作的过程中，我一直在努力填补这一空白。

Then I would go to their leaders and at the beginning of these agile transformations, I'd be like, "You can't just do Scrum.

然后我会去找他们的领导，在这些敏捷转型开始时，我会说，“你不能只做 Scrum。

That's not going to make you amazing at delivering products.

这并不会让你在交付产品方面表现出色。

There's so much more to this." The leaders didn't quite understand that.

这还有很多事情要做。”领导们不太明白这一点。

Melissa Perri: I'm noticing this really big shift in the industry where we're finally getting there.

Melissa Perri：我注意到行业中发生了巨大的转变，我们终于实现了这一目标。

A lot of companies are doing it well now.

现在很多公司都做得很好。

Capital One is a great example that took their agile transformation and started adding product management on it, and they've really turned that around in the card business.

第一资本就是一个很好的例子，他们采取了敏捷转型并开始添加产品管理，他们在卡业务中真正扭转了这一局面。

So many organizations are still at the beginning of this journey and they're at the place where I saw people 10 years ago.

许多组织仍处于这一旅程的开始阶段，他们正处于我 10 年前见过的地方。

I think there's still a lot of companies out there.

我认为还有很多公司。

Maybe we take it for granted in tech or in Silicon Valley about how many companies are doing this and how big this scope is where they're making these roles, but they're not really doing product management end to end.

也许我们在科技或硅谷认为有多少公司在这样做以及他们扮演这些角色的范围有多大，但他们并没有真正进行端到端的产品管理。

That's where I've seen all of these areas and I've been trying to help organizations for the last 10 years really set up robust product management practices.

这就是我了解所有这些领域的地方，并且在过去 10 年里我一直在努力帮助组织真正建立强大的产品管理实践。

It's not just one piece of development, it's how do we actually build better products?

这不仅仅是一项开发，而是我们如何真正打造更好的产品？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this example of Capital One.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢《第一资本》的这个例子。

It can work really well and you can get to a place where it's actually really productive.

它可以工作得非常好，你可以到达一个真正高效的地方。

There's a few ways we can go about this.

我们可以采取几种方法来解决这个问题。

Do you think it would be helpful to talk through the history of the product owner role just like where it initially emerged?

您认为回顾产品负责人角色的历史（就像它最初出现的地方一样）会有帮助吗？

Melissa Perri: Yeah, I think that's a great place to start.

Melissa Perri：是的，我认为这是一个很好的起点。

I think it brings a lot of context too to what's happening.

我认为它也为正在发生的事情带来了很多背景。

People forget about the history here.

人们忘记了这里的历史。

When I explain it to people, I say we had product managers in Silicon Valley, right?

当我向人们解释时，我说我们在硅谷有产品经理，对吗？

They were in Google, they were in all of these companies, Amazon, and they were born out of this business role.

他们在谷歌，他们在所有这些公司，亚马逊，他们都是从这个商业角色中诞生的。

From a software native company, your software is the business, right?

对于一家软件原生公司来说，你的软件就是业务，对吧？

It's what you sell, it's what you actually look at.

这就是你卖的东西，这就是你实际看到的东西。

Our product managers in Silicon Valley, they're doing market research, they're talking to customers, they're working with developers, they're iterating, they're doing the end-to-end product management.

我们在硅谷的产品经理正在做市场研究，他们正在与客户交谈，他们正在与开发人员合作，他们正在迭代，他们正在进行端到端的产品管理。

Melissa Perri: What happened on the other side of things, especially in large companies, is the emergence of product management from Scrum, from product ownership.

Melissa Perri：事情的另一面，特别是在大公司，是从 Scrum 和产品所有权中出现了产品管理。

That's usually the first time these companies were introduced to product management was from implementing a product owner role and then going, "Hey, we're still not meeting our goals.

通常，这些公司第一次引入产品管理是从实施产品负责人角色开始的，然后说：“嘿，我们仍然没有实现我们的目标。

Are we building the right thing?" Then they started thinking product management.

我们正在构建正确的东西吗？”然后他们开始思考产品管理。

Where that role came from is Scrum.

这个角色的来源是 Scrum。

If we go back and talk about the history of agile, agile was a movement that got started by software developers.

如果我们回顾敏捷的历史，敏捷是由软件开发人员发起的运动。

In 2001, the Agile Manifesto was written.

2001 年，编写了敏捷宣言。

A bunch of developers got together in Park City, Utah, they were all skiing together and they said, "Hey, we've been independently all working on how to develop software better."

一群开发人员聚集在犹他州帕克城，他们一起滑雪，他们说：“嘿，我们一直在独立致力于如何更好地开发软件。”

Melissa Perri: Some people were practicing Scrum as we know it today.

Melissa Perri：有些人正在实践我们今天所知道的 Scrum。

That was Ken Schwaber, Jeff Sutherland.

那是肯·施瓦伯、杰夫·萨瑟兰。

There were people who were doing different types of agile frameworks as well, Kanban, where you were moving it through a Kanban board.

有些人也在做不同类型的敏捷框架，看板，你可以通过看板来移动它。

There was behavioral-driven development, there was feature-driven development.

有行为驱动的开发，有功能驱动的开发。

That was the style of agile.

这就是敏捷的风格。

There was XP, extreme programming, that was started by Ron Jeffries.

XP，即极限编程，是由 Ron Jeffries 发起的。

All of these people found each other saying, "Hey, we've been trying to push the boundaries of how do we develop better software," and they got together and they wrote the Agile Manifesto as we know it today.

所有这些人都发现对方说：“嘿，我们一直在努力突破如何开发更好软件的界限”，他们聚在一起写下了我们今天所知的敏捷宣言。

Melissa Perri: The Agile Manifesto is really just a guideline on how they're striving to not just be people who code what people want, but building better products.

Melissa Perri：敏捷宣言实际上只是一个指导方针，告诉我们他们不仅要努力成为编写人们想要的代码的人，还要努力打造更好的产品。

How do we build better products through software development?

我们如何通过软件开发打造更好的产品？

The premise to remember this is, and I keep saying it, but they're all software developers.

记住这一点的前提是，而且我一直这么说，但他们都是软件开发人员。

Nobody was a product manager who went to that meeting.

没有人是产品经理参加那次会议。

Nobody who wrote the Agile Manifesto was actually a product manager.

撰写敏捷宣言的人实际上并不是产品经理。

I've spent a long time talking to these people as well over the past 10 years just saying, "Hey, how did this come about?

在过去的十年里，我也花了很长时间与这些人交谈，只是说：“嘿，这是怎么发生的？

Where did this come from?"

这是从哪里来的？”

Melissa Perri: The one person who was really close to them who was a product manager was Jeff Patton, but he never signed the Agile Manifesto, he wasn't at that meeting.

Melissa Perri：与他们真正关系密切的产品经理是 Jeff Patton，但他从未签署过敏捷宣言，他也没有参加那次会议。

He talked to them a lot, he was able to see what was going on, but all of this was a purge from how do we build better products from a development perspective.

他与他们交谈了很多，他能够看到正在发生的事情，但所有这些都是对我们如何从开发角度构建更好的产品的清洗。

That's really important to know.

了解这一点非常重要。

Two of the people who signed the Agile Manifesto, Jeff and Ken, as I was talking about, they were independently coming up with Scrum on their own in their different companies, and they got together and started to codify it and they said, "This is how I'm doing it, this is how I'm doing it." They ended up writing the Scrum Guide.

正如我所说，签署敏捷宣言的两个人，杰夫和肯，他们在不同的公司独立提出了 Scrum，他们聚在一起开始编写它，他们说，“这就是我正在做的事情，这就是我正在做的事情。”他们最终编写了 Scrum 指南。

The Scrum Guide is what a lot of people base their agile practices off of today.

Scrum 指南是当今许多人敏捷实践的基础。

In the Scrum Guide, it outlines a bunch of roles that you would do on the development team, and then it says how you should be developing products.

在 Scrum 指南中，它概述了您在开发团队中将担任的一系列角色，然后说明了您应该如何开发产品。

Melissa Perri: Most people out there are working in Scrum today, and what they say is, "Let's break things down into two-week sprints." You can change the length of your sprint if you want to, but two-week sprints is pretty standard at the beginning.

Melissa Perri：现在大多数人都在 Scrum 中工作，他们说的是，“让我们把事情分解为两周的冲刺。”如果您愿意，您可以更改冲刺的长度，但两周冲刺在开始时是相当标准的。

We define what we're going to work on in the backlog.

我们定义了待办事项列表中要处理的内容。

It's the product owner's responsibility to define what goes into the backlog, write down the user stories for it, do all that.

产品负责人有责任定义待办事项列表中的内容，为其写下用户故事，完成所有这些工作。

Then the development team comes in, they discuss it, the product owner prioritizes it, they ask questions, and then the development team commits to what they want to build and they go out and do it.

然后开发团队进来，他们进行讨论，产品负责人确定其优先级，他们提出问题，然后开发团队致力于他们想要构建的内容，然后他们出去去做。

At the end, the result is a potentially shippable product, not necessarily shippable, but potentially shippable.

最后，结果是一个潜在可交付的产品，不一定可交付，但可能可交付。

Melissa Perri: They're trying to break it down into small chunks and build things instead of what they had been doing in a lot of companies, which was building stuff for three years and then releasing it in a big bang.

Melissa Perri：他们正试图将其分解成小块并构建一些东西，而不是像他们在许多公司中所做的那样，即花费三年时间构建东西，然后大爆炸地发布它。

What all of the people who signed the Agile Manifesto realized was if we do it the other way, if we do a waterfall type environment, agile waterfall, that's where we go across, there's a lot of risk because we don't test it with the customer and we don't get feedback on it if we spend three years building it and never show it to somebody.

所有签署敏捷宣言的人都意识到，如果我们以另一种方式去做，如果我们做一个瀑布式环境，敏捷瀑布，这就是我们遇到的地方，就会有很多风险，因为我们不与客户一起测试它，如果我们花了三年时间构建它并且从未向其他人展示它，我们就不会得到反馈。

It really approached a different way of building software.

它确实采用了一种不同的软件构建方式。

It said let's chunk it down and try to get feedback faster.

它说让我们将其分解并尝试更快地获得反馈。

Really noble intention.

真是高尚的意图。

Melissa Perri: In the Scrum guide though, it introduces these new roles.

Melissa Perri：不过在 Scrum 指南中，它介绍了这些新角色。

We have developers as we know and love them, we also have a product owner, then we have a Scrum master, and the Scrum master is in charge in Scrum of actually helping people do Scrum better.

我们有我们熟悉并热爱的开发人员，我们也有产品负责人，然后我们有 Scrum 大师，Scrum 大师负责 Scrum 实际帮助人们更好地做 Scrum。

That's literally their job.

这确实是他们的工作。

How do I do Scrum better?

如何更好地进行 Scrum？

How do I make sure that the team is working well together?

我如何确保团队合作良好？

They host things like retrospectives where at the end of a sprint we say what went well, what didn't go well, how should we actually inspect and adapt our process.

他们举办诸如回顾之类的活动，在冲刺结束时我们会说哪些进展顺利，哪些进展不顺利，我们应该如何实际检查和调整我们的流程。

The product owner is where things get murky.

产品负责人是事情变得模糊的地方。

Melissa Perri: The product owner in general first showed up with Scrum, and if you go and you read the first Scrum guide, which I pulled up and started reading, because I've been very fascinated about how this is described, it says that the product owner is responsible for maximizing the value of work done, the team does the work.

Melissa Perri：一般来说，产品负责人首先出现在 Scrum 中，如果你去阅读第一个 Scrum 指南，我就拿起它并开始阅读，因为我对它的描述方式非常着迷，它说产品负责人负责最大化已完成工作的价值，团队负责工作。

Interesting, because now the product owner is not quite part of the team.

有趣的是，因为现在产品负责人已经不再是团队的一部分了。

The team consists of developers with all the skills to turn the product owner's request into the potentially shippable increment each sprint.

该团队由开发人员组成，他们拥有将产品所有者的请求转化为每个冲刺的潜在可交付增量的所有技能。

The team is usually seven plus or minus two members.

团队通常由七人加上或减去两名成员组成。

Melissa Perri: Then when you go further into the first version of the Scrum Guide, it does say that the Scrum master works with the customers and management to identify and instantiate a product owner.

Melissa Perri：那么当你进一步了解 Scrum 指南的第一个版本时，它确实说 Scrum Master 与客户和管理层合作来识别和实例化产品所有者。

The Scrum master teaches the product owner how to do his or her job in order to optimize the value of the use of Scrum.

Scrum Master 教导产品负责人如何做好他或她的工作，以优化 Scrum 使用的价值。

If they don't, the Scrum master is held accountable.

如果他们不这样做，Scrum master 就要承担责任。

Then it's got another tip if we go deeper into this.

如果我们更深入地研究这个问题，就会得到另一个提示。

It says per commercial development, the product owner may be the product manager.

它说根据商业开发，产品所有者可能是产品经理。

For in-house development efforts, the product owner could be the user department manager.

对于内部开发工作，产品所有者可以是用户部门经理。

Melissa Perri: What's interesting is that that was the first version of the Scrum Guide, and I get into arguments about the Scrum Guide with people all the time.

Melissa Perri：有趣的是，这是 Scrum 指南的第一个版本，我一直与人们就 Scrum 指南进行争论。

2013's version though, the more updated one that you could go and find is the one that almost every company has run an agile transformation off of.

不过，2013 年的版本是您可以找到的更新程度更高的版本，几乎所有公司都已经在该版本上进行了敏捷转型。

It loses that thing that says the product manager could be the product owner.

它失去了产品经理可以成为产品负责人的说法。

It doesn't say it anywhere in that guide.

该指南中的任何地方都没有提到这一点。

This was the first version, and you can kind of tell it was an aside.

这是第一个版本，你可以看出这是一个旁白。

It's like, "Oh, by the way, the product owner in Scrum doesn't need to be a product manager, it could be the customer, it could be a developer." It's usually the customer.

就像，“哦，顺便说一下，Scrum 中的产品负责人不需要是产品经理，它可以是客户，也可以是开发人员。”通常是客户。

Melissa Perri: When they were writing this too, sometimes the customer was an internal person at a bank or somewhere where we were building software who was asking for the software.

Melissa Perri：当他们也在写这篇文章时，有时客户是银行或我们正在构建软件的地方的内部人员，他们需要软件。

They were like, "Go build me an internal tool.

他们就像是，“给我建立一个内部工具。

Go do this." Now we're just asking for requirements inside a company, and that's where you can start to see how the product owner role kind of evolved into somebody going to ask, "Hey, what do you want me to build?

去做这个吧。”现在我们只是询问公司内部的需求，从这里你可以开始看到产品负责人的角色如何演变为有人会问：“嘿，你想让我构建什么？

What's required here?," and then just listening to somebody come back and say, "I need this feature, I need this feature, I need this feature." Scrum doesn't describe how to get the stuff into the backlog, and it didn't in the 2013 manuals.

这里需要什么？”，然后听到有人回来说，“我需要这个功能，我需要这个功能，我需要这个功能。” Scrum 没有描述如何将这些内容放入待办事项列表中，2013 年的手册中也没有描述。

The manuals have all been a little bit better, they've all kind of been updated since then, and they do describe it has to start with the vision a little bit more, you have to break down the vision for the product and get in there, but none of that existed in the early versions of Scrum.

这些手册都好多了，从那时起它们都进行了更新，并且它们确实描述了它必须从愿景开始，你必须分解产品的愿景并进入其中，但 Scrum 的早期版本中不存在这些。

Melissa Perri: When people got trained on how to be a product owner, what was happening here is, and this is the whole other world of Scrum over here, when people get trained to be a product owner, it's usually a two-day class where they teach them, "Hey, this is how you break down a backlog.

Melissa Perri：当人们接受如何成为产品负责人的培训时，这里发生的事情是，这是 Scrum 的另一个世界，当人们接受如何成为产品负责人的培训时，通常会在为期两天的课程中教他们，“嘿，这就是分解积压工作的方法。

This is how you do stand-ups with your teams.

这就是您与团队进行站立会议的方式。

This is how you think about prioritizing work.

这就是您对工作优先顺序的看法。

This is how you manage your backlog, prioritize it for the developers.

这就是您管理待办事项、为开发人员确定优先级的方式。

This is how you work with the retrospectives," but it doesn't teach them about experimentation, it doesn't teach them about market research, it doesn't teach them about data, it doesn't teach them about any of the things that we need to be a product manager.

这就是你进行回顾的方式，”但它没有教他们有关实验的知识，没有教他们有关市场研究的知识，没有教他们有关数据的知识，也没有教他们有关成为产品经理所需的任何知识。

Melissa Perri: Then what happened was we went into these agile transformations at these companies and they said, "Hey, let's adopt Scrum because Scrum was built as a way to build better products faster." It's literally the tagline.

Melissa Perri：然后发生的事情是，我们在这些公司进行了敏捷转型，他们说，“嘿，让我们采用 Scrum，因为 Scrum 是为了更快地构建更好的产品而构建的。”这实际上是标语。

Everybody was like, "Yeah, I want to build products faster.

每个人都说，“是的，我想更快地开发产品。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Let's do Scrum." All these large organizations back in the early 2010s, in the 2000s said, "Oh, we got to be better at software.

让我们进行 Scrum。”所有这些大型组织早在 2010 年代初、2000 年代就说过：“哦，我们必须在软件方面做得更好。

How do we do this better?

我们如何做得更好？

Otherwise, we're going to lose when it comes to innovation." They adopted Scrum as a way to build software faster.

否则，我们在创新方面就会失败。”他们采用 Scrum 作为更快构建软件的方法。

Melissa Perri: Now, what happened is in order to do Scrum, Scrum basically sells training.

Melissa Perri：现在发生的事情是为了做 Scrum，Scrum 基本上是在销售培训。

That's what Scrum does.

这就是 Scrum 所做的。

All of these agile coaches would come in and teach the product owners, newly minted product owners, took all those people, made them into product owners, put them through a two-day class and then say, "Go." That was the beginning of all the agile transformations, and that's where a lot of companies still are today.

所有这些敏捷教练都会进来教导产品负责人，新成立的产品负责人，让所有这些人，让他们成为产品负责人，让他们参加为期两天的课程，然后说“开始”。这是所有敏捷转型的开始，也是许多公司至今仍处于的状态。

This product owner role did not emerge from product management as we know it today, it was a way to help the developers prioritize what to work on, but that was it.

正如我们今天所知，这个产品负责人角色并不是从产品管理中出现的，它是帮助开发人员确定工作优先级的一种方式，但仅此而已。

The product owner was held accountable for making sure that they were working on the most pressing things or the highest value things, they do say that, but to me, if you look at it from a developer perspective, it's also the person where you can say, "Hey, well, you told me to build that, right?

产品负责人有责任确保他们正在处理最紧迫的事情或最高价值的事情，他们确实这么说，但对我来说，如果你从开发人员的角度来看，你也可以说，“嘿，好吧，你告诉我要构建它，对吗？

We didn't build it wrong.

我们没有建造错误。

You told me to build that."

你告诉我要建造它。”

Melissa Perri: It almost gets into consulting territory where you're like, "Okay.

Melissa Perri：这几乎进入了咨询领域，你会说，“好吧。

If the product owner prioritized all this stuff for me and told me what to do, I can't be held accountable if it was the wrong thing to build." Some of that stuff does come up in a lot of teams that struggle to adopt agile, to adopt Scrum.

如果产品负责人为我确定了所有这些东西的优先顺序并告诉我该做什么，那么如果构建的是错误的东西，我就不会承担责任。”其中一些东西确实出现在许多努力采用敏捷、采用 Scrum 的团队中。

I feel like there's a big misunderstanding out there about what is this role and what should we be doing, but the premise of this is when we talk about Scrum, it's just one piece of the puzzle, and when people talk about agile now, they almost always associate it with Scrum.

我觉得对于这个角色是什么以及我们应该做什么存在很大的误解，但前提是当我们谈论 Scrum 时，它只是拼图的一小部分，当人们现在谈论敏捷时，他们几乎总是将它与 Scrum 联系在一起。

Melissa Perri: I was actually Googling agile methodologies, and like I said, the other ones, Kanbans is an agile methodology, XP is an agile methodology.

Melissa Perri：我实际上是在谷歌上搜索敏捷方法，就像我说的，其他方法，看板是一种敏捷方法，XP 是一种敏捷方法。

They don't have product owners, they do not exist in those methodologies.

他们没有产品负责人，他们不存在于那些方法论中。

There are four developers to work on things, or teams to work on things.

有四个开发人员来处理事情，或者团队来处理事情。

XP would consider product managers in the teams as far as I know it, but Scrum kind of sees it as a separate thing.

据我所知，XP 会考虑团队中的产品经理，但 Scrum 则将其视为一个单独的事物。

Agile methodologies, everybody says, "Oh, they're Scrum now," so it gets a bad connotation out there about what to do with it.

敏捷方法论，每个人都说，“哦，他们现在是 Scrum”，所以它对于如何使用它产生了不好的含义。

I think Scrum if you do it well is bad, but you have to understand that it's just one piece of building great products, it's not the whole thing, and companies will adopt it like it's going to radically transform everything.

我认为 Scrum 如果你做得很好，那就不好了，但你必须明白，它只是构建伟大产品的一部分，而不是全部，公司会采用它，就像它会从根本上改变一切一样。

To be fair, a lot of times it's sold that way too.

公平地说，很多时候它也是这样出售的。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a bigger picture question that's coming to mind as you talk about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：当您谈论这个问题时，我会想到一个更大的问题。

I'm imagining founders listening to this and smaller companies listening to this be like, "Why do we need any of this?", especially Silicon Valley startups, "We're just going to build stuff.

我想象创始人听到这个和小公司听到这个就像，“为什么我们需要这些？”，特别是硅谷初创公司，“我们只是要建造东西。

We don't need these frameworks, we don't need a Scrum master.

我们不需要这些框架，我们不需要 Scrum master。

We just have awesome developers and product managers and we're just going to build awesome stuff." I don't know anyone that has worked this way that has built amazing things.

我们拥有出色的开发人员和产品经理，我们将打造出色的产品。”我不知道有谁以这种方式工作并创造出令人惊叹的东西。

Can you talk a bit about who ends up looking for solutions here, where this even comes from, what companies need help here versus, "I just don't need any of this?"

您能否谈谈谁最终会在这里寻找解决方案，这甚至来自哪里，哪些公司在这里需要帮助，而不是“我只是不需要这些？”

Melissa Perri: A lot of large companies turn to Scrum or to the frameworks, and it's because they traditionally didn't grow up building software.

Melissa Perri：很多大公司转向 Scrum 或框架，这是因为他们传统上并不是在构建软件的过程中成长起来的。

They're looking at how do I implement something that has rigor at scale, and that's where you see a lot of Scrum come up.

他们正在研究如何大规模地实施一些严格的东西，这就是你看到大量 Scrum 出现的地方。

Now, I've seen startups using Scrum.

现在，我看到初创公司使用 Scrum。

Some of them do it fine, they understand that it's just more about trying to get things out the door every two weeks to test it with customers.

他们中的一些人做得很好，他们明白这只是更多地尝试每两周将产品推出去与客户进行测试。

I think if you keep that philosophy, like I said, I used it and we didn't have a lot of rigor around it, that was fine.

我认为，如果你保持这种理念，就像我说的那样，我使用了它，而且我们没有太多严格的要求，那就很好。

When we were doing Scrum, when I did it with my team back in OpenSky, we got to this point where we were like, "Two weeks is too long.

当我们做 Scrum 时，当我和我的团队回到 OpenSky 时，我们发现我们的想法是，“两周太长了。

We're just going to ship things every week."

我们每周都会发货。”

Melissa Perri: We just talked to each other, we skipped stand-ups, which is sacrilege in Scrum, but we kipped daily stand-ups.

Melissa Perri：我们只是互相交谈，我们跳过了站会，这在 Scrum 中是一种亵渎，但我们跳过了每天的站会。

We didn't need to stand around and talk about it, we talked to each other every day.

我们不需要站在一起谈论这件事，我们每天都会互相交谈。

For me, what was amazing and where I see teams actually thrive when they start using Scrum is when you go and talk to people.

对我来说，令人惊奇的是当你去与人们交谈时，我看到团队在开始使用 Scrum 时真正蓬勃发展。

You're having the conversations about the work, you're breaking it down, you're understanding it, so the developers and the rest of the team can go hit the road running and people can ask important questions.

你正在就工作进行对话，你正在分解它，你正在理解它，这样开发人员和团队的其他成员就可以开始工作，人们可以提出重要的问题。

If you're not doing that, that's where I think things like a framework help, but if you already are doing that, you don't need a framework, you don't need Scrum, you don't need to be prescribed to this two-week sprint or anything like that.

如果你没有这样做，我认为框架之类的东西会有所帮助，但如果你已经这样做了，你就不需要框架，你不需要 Scrum，你不需要被规定进行为期两周的冲刺或类似的事情。

Melissa Perri: As long as you have a methodology, it doesn't even have to be a defined methodology.

Melissa Perri：只要你有一个方法论，它甚至不必是一个定义的方法论。

As long as you have a way of working that gets things out to customers, well, who cares?

只要你有一种工作方式可以将事情传达给客户，那么，谁在乎呢？

Who actually cares?

谁真正关心？

Where there's a lot of, I think, baggage in the industry and where I hear product managers get really frustrated and other people as well, developers too, is that when you do Scrum by the book or how people teach it and how they write about it, it's a million meetings.

我认为，这个行业有很多包袱，我听到产品经理和其他人，还有开发人员感到非常沮丧，那就是，当你按照书本或人们如何教授它以及如何编写它时，这就是一百万次会议。

I know they were put in there so that people were forced to talk, but when you already know what you're supposed to work on, why do you need to keep doing meetings?

我知道它们被放在那里是为了让人们被迫说话，但是当你已经知道自己应该做什么时，为什么还需要继续开会议呢？

Shouldn't you just go do some work?

你不应该去做点工作吗？

Melissa Perri: A lot of developers complain, a lot of product managers complain that Scrum has too many meetings and they don't actually get to do work.

Melissa Perri：很多开发人员抱怨，很多产品经理抱怨 Scrum 召开太多会议，而他们实际上并没有开始工作。

That's where I think you have to go back to the inspect and adapt part.

这就是我认为你必须回到检查和调整部分的地方。

A lot of people who are very religious about Scrum will come and yell at me about this.

很多对 Scrum 非常虔诚的人会为此对我大喊大叫。

They're like, "Oh, well, that's not how it's supposed to be.

他们会说，“哦，好吧，事情不应该是这样的。

You're supposed to inspect and adapt." Agree, but a lot of people aren't doing it and that's the piece where you go and you say, "Is this serving us?

你应该检查并适应。”同意，但很多人没有这样做，这就是你所说的，“这对我们有用吗？

If not, let's get rid of it.

如果没有，我们就摆脱它吧。

Let's not do those types of things." When you're a small startup, I don't think you need a lot of this overhead.

我们不要做这类事情。”当你是一家小型初创公司时，我认为你不需要太多这样的开销。

It's really much designed for larger scale companies, and those are the ones that you see really adopting it.

它实际上是为大型公司设计的，而这些公司才是真正采用它的公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: From what I've seen on the data, it's also companies that are as you I think alluded to at the beginning, not necessarily software first, product first companies.

Lenny Rachitsky：从我所看到的数据来看，我认为也有像您一开始提到的那样的公司，不一定是软件第一、产品第一的公司。

Feels like it's very common in banks and telecom companies and companies that aren't product First and software first.

感觉这在银行、电信公司以及不以产品为先、软件为先的公司中很常见。

Melissa Perri: There are SaaS companies that do Scrum out there and they like it, and I don't think they're very dogmatic about it.

Melissa Perri：有一些 SaaS 公司在做 Scrum，他们喜欢它，而且我认为他们对此并不是很教条。

Melissa Perri: They do it for a reason of just trying to provide some more context to their teams about how to work together at scale.

Melissa Perri：他们这样做的原因只是想为团队提供更多关于如何大规模合作的背景信息。

I've also seen places where they don't prescribe whatever methodology you want to work with for the teams, but instead they'll spend a lot more effort breaking down the road maps, thinking about what are we going to do each quarter, trying to set those themes, and then they just let the teams run, and that works as well.

我还看到过一些地方，他们没有规定你想要为团队使用的任何方法，而是花更多的精力来分解路线图，思考我们每个季度要做什么，尝试设定这些主题，然后他们就让团队运行，这也很有效。

I think it really depends how they adopt it, but I would say it's not a hard and fast rule that no startups are doing this.

我认为这实际上取决于他们如何采用它，但我想说，没有初创公司这样做并不是一个硬性规定。

Some are doing it, I just don't know how it's going for them.

有些人正在这样做，我只是不知道他们进展如何。

To me, it might be overkill if you're doing that with a team that's pretty experienced in doing this.

对我来说，如果你和一个在这方面经验丰富的团队一起做这件事可能有点矫枉过正。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I was insinuating is less just Scrum as a general idea and more very structured rigid processes and also product owners.

Lenny Rachitsky：我所暗示的不仅仅是 Scrum 作为一个总体理念，而是更加结构化的严格流程和产品负责人。

Then there's this whole concept of SAFe that we can talk about.

然后我们可以讨论 SAFe 的整个概念。

Should we get into that or should we talk about product manager versus product owner and just the challenges people have there?

我们应该讨论这个问题，还是应该讨论产品经理与产品负责人以及人们面临的挑战？

Melissa Perri: Let's talk about SAFe because that's where a lot of this started to get Confusing

Melissa Perri：我们来谈谈 SAFe，因为这就是很多事情开始变得令人困惑的地方

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

Let's go there.

我们去那里吧。

Yeah.

是的。

Melissa Perri: Scaled Agile Framework came out of the desire to figure out how do we scale Scrum and different processes and bring it to organizations at scale.

Melissa Perri：规模化敏捷框架源于我们想要弄清楚如何规模化 Scrum 和不同流程并将其大规模地引入组织的愿望。

It originated from a more structured approach to agile too called Rational Unified Processing.

它起源于一种更加结构化的敏捷方法，称为 Rational 统一处理。

Now, SAFe wasn't the first thing that started at scale.

现在，SAFe 并不是第一个大规模启动的项目。

There was also LeSS, which is a Scaled Agile Framework, and then Jeff Sutherland who did Scrum has Scrum@Scale.

还有LeSS，这是一个Scaled Agile Framework，然后Jeff Sutherland做了Scrum，有Scrum@Scale。

It's not the only scaling framework out there.

它不是唯一的扩展框架。

There's a lot, there's actually a lot out there, but SAFe was one that was marketed the best.

有很多，实际上有很多，但 SAFe 是营销最好的一个。

The way it's marketed is will tell you everything you need to do, to do all of your agile teams with Scrum and put them all together.

它的营销方式将告诉您需要做的一切，用 Scrum 打造所有敏捷团队并将它们整合在一起。

Melissa Perri: The idea behind SAFe was that Dean Leffingwell came up with it.

Melissa Perri：SAFe 背后的想法是 Dean Leffingwell 提出的。

He wanted to really show how you tie multiple teams together at scale in an organization and how do you bring some rigor and process to that.

他想真正展示如何在一个组织中将多个团队大规模地联系在一起，以及如何为此带来一些严谨性和流程。

The executives at really large enterprises, we're talking tens of thousands of people, they love SAFe because it prescribes a lot of an operating model of what to do when it comes to development, but it also gets billed as like, "Hey, this is the whole model for you to go do software." If you look at it, it's a big map that everybody kind of makes fun of a little bit, and it describes all different things on it if you look at the map.

真正大型企业的高管，我们谈论的是数以万计的人，他们喜欢 SAFe，因为它规定了很多关于开发时要做什么的操作模型，但它也被宣传为“嘿，这就是你去做软件的整个模型。”如果你看一下它，就会发现这是一张每个人都有点取笑的大地图，如果你看一下地图，它描述了上面所有不同的事物。

You can click in and you can see the definitions and you can see what's going on in the areas.

您可以单击进去，然后可以看到定义，并且可以看到这些区域中发生的情况。

Melissa Perri: The SAFe image has gotten bigger and bigger over time.

Melissa Perri：随着时间的推移，SAFe 的形象变得越来越大。

I think, what is this?

我想，这是什么？

Version six.

第六版。

I do know a lot of people who worked on SAFe, so I know a lot of trainers and I've worked with companies.

我确实认识很多在 SAFe 工作过的人，所以我认识很多培训师并且我曾与公司合作过。

The first time I was introduced to SAFe was when I was working with a bank back in 2015.

我第一次接触 SAFe 是在 2015 年我在一家银行工作时。

I came in to train their product managers, I'm doing my training, we're setting them up on how to go talk to customers, talk about hypotheses, MVP, and somebody came up to me and they said, "Hey, Melissa, all of this is great, but I don't have time to go talk to customers because I'm a product owner." I was like, "Well, what are you doing on a day-to-day basis?

我来培训他们的产品经理，我正在做我的培训，我们正在设置他们如何与客户交谈，谈论假设，MVP，有人走过来对我说，“嘿，梅丽莎，所有这些都很棒，但我没有时间去与客户交谈，因为我是产品负责人。”我当时想，“那么，你每天都在做什么？

What don't you have time for it?", "I got to write my user stories." I'm like, "Okay.

你没有时间做什么？”，“我必须写我的用户故事。”我想，“好吧。

How many user stories do you write per day?"

您每天写多少个用户故事？”

Melissa Perri: This was for the developers to have a full backlog so they could all work, right?

Melissa Perri：这是为了让开发人员有完整的积压工作，以便他们都能工作，对吗？

She's like, "Oh, yeah.

她就像是，“哦，是的。

I spend pretty much 40 hours a day writing user stories." I'm like, "On what?" We're like, "What are you controlling?" She's like, "The login API for a bank." I'm like, "Can you log in?" She's like, "Yeah," and I'm like, "So what else are you working on?

我每天花差不多 40 个小时来写用户故事。”我想，“在什么方面？”我们会问，“你在控制什么？”她就像是“银行的登录 API”。我说：“你能登录吗？”她说，“是的”，我说，“那你还在做什么？

Is there a new initiative?

有新举措吗？

Is there a new thing?" It's like, "No, I was reorganized into a team where I became the product owner.

有新事吗？”就像是，“不，我被重组为一个团队，我成为了产品负责人。

I have a product manager who goes and talks to customers, but then she comes and she tells me what to build, and then I write the user stories around it and I put it into the backlog for the teams." I was like, "What is this?" Then they said, "That's SAFe.

我有一位产品经理去与客户交谈，但随后她过来告诉我要构建什么，然后我围绕它编写用户故事，并将其放入团队的积压工作中。”我当时想，“这是什么？”然后他们说：“那是安全的。

This is what we're working towards."

这就是我们正在努力的方向。”

Melissa Perri: This was my first experience with SAFe, and then I ran into another company that did it, another company, same thing over and over and over again, where all these product owners were just basically trying to keep these backlogs full for developers, and they were working on such a narrow level.

Melissa Perri：这是我第一次接触 SAFe，然后我遇到了另一家这样做的公司，另一家公司，一遍又一遍地做同样的事情，所有这些产品所有者基本上只是试图为开发人员保留这些积压的工作，而且他们的工作范围如此狭窄。

When a lot of organizations too I saw it reorganized into agile teams, they did it by component.

当我看到很多组织也重组为敏捷团队时，他们是按组件进行的。

Everybody was over every tiny little feature, and these teams were massive, super huge scope, and some of the stuff was just not prioritized.

每个人都在研究每一个微小的功能，这些团队规模庞大，范围非常大，有些东西只是没有优先考虑。

It was done, you didn't need to work on it.

它已经完成了，你不需要再做任何工作。

They were finding work to do so people wouldn't get fired.

他们正在寻找工作，这样人们就不会被解雇。

That's how the product owners operated.

这就是产品负责人的运作方式。

There was all this legacy baggage sometimes in companies where they were all re-put on things by component, and they're just making up work to do.

有时，公司里会存在所有这些遗留包袱，它们都是按组件重新放置的，而它们只是在弥补要做的工作。

Melissa Perri: SAFe introduced this kind of split between product manager and product owner, and if you look at the map, the product owner is part of the agile team where they sit with the Scrum masters, which is a team coach that they call here and the developers, and then the product manager is sitting with a system architect and what they call a release train engineer.

Melissa Perri：SAFe 引入了产品经理和产品负责人之间的这种划分，如果你看一下地图，产品负责人是敏捷团队的一部分，他们与 Scrum 大师（他们在这里称之为团队教练）和开发人员坐在一起，然后产品经理与系统架构师和他们所谓的发布培训工程师坐在一起。

What SAFe does is they pull a bunch of agile teams into a release train and you get on the train when you're ready to ship things and you make sure that it all goes pretty smoothly to get to that potential shippable increment or that big feature launch that you would be doing with SAFe.

SAFe 所做的是，他们将一群敏捷团队拉入发布列车，当您准备好交付产品时，您就可以上车，并确保一切顺利，以实现潜在的可交付增量或您将使用 SAFe 进行的大型功能发布。

Melissa Perri: SAFe's really good at prescribing how to do that, they're great at describing how to do the release trains, how to bring those teams together, how to put them on it.

Melissa Perri：SAFe 非常擅长规定如何做到这一点，他们非常擅长描述如何进行发布训练，如何将这些团队聚集在一起，以及如何将他们放入其中。

Then they do this thing called big room planning where they get the entire release train together, all these teams, they put them in a room and in every quarter you're breaking down what we're all going to work on.

然后他们会做一个叫做“大房间规划”的事情，他们把整个发布系列聚集在一起，所有这些团队，他们把它们放在一个房间里，在每个季度你都会分解我们要做什么。

Where I hear frustration from teams every time I come in and train them is that when you do big room planning, a lot of times it's a commitment.

每次我进来培训团队时，我都会听到团队的挫败感，因为当你进行大房间规划时，很多时候这是一种承诺。

You start at the quarter, they haven't been doing good discovery because remember, these people have not been trained on good discovery so they don't really know what they should be working on, they haven't been out talking to customers a lot of times.

从本季度开始，他们没有进行良好的发现，因为请记住，这些人没有接受过良好发现的培训，因此他们并不真正知道自己应该做什么，他们没有经常与客户交谈。

They kind of scramble, they figure out what needs to happen.

他们有点手忙脚乱，他们弄清楚需要发生什么。

Usually they have a backlog of stuff that does need to happen, it just has to get done.

通常他们会积压一些确实需要发生的事情，只需要完成即可。

They map it all out in a big room together, they commit to it, and then that's the quarter.

他们一起在一个大房间里规划好一切，并做出承诺，然后就是这个季度。

Melissa Perri: They ask me, "When am I supposed to do discovery?" I'm like, "Well before that ideally you should have a vision.

Melissa Perri：他们问我，“我什么时候应该进行发现？”我想，“在那之前，理想情况下你应该有一个愿景。

You should be breaking it down, you should be putting discovery into that vision, talking to customers, feeding that in there." Then I hear, "We don't have time to do that because we sprint back to back." I was like, "What does that mean?", and they're like, "As a team, we go and we basically do two-week sprint into two-week sprint into two-week sprint, and I got to make sure my developers are full.

你应该分解它，你应该将发现融入到这个愿景中，与客户交谈，并将其融入其中。”然后我听到，“我们没有时间这样做，因为我们要背靠背冲刺。”我当时想，“这是什么意思？”，他们说，“作为一个团队，我们基本上将两周的冲刺变成两周的冲刺，然后我必须确保我的开发人员已经满员。

I got to make sure they have things to work on.

我必须确保他们有事情要做。

If I go take time off to go talk to customers, which also is not my job as a product owner, it's my product manager's job, they'll feed me in what the customers are saying, then I break those down into features and I can work with the developers on it." That's how all of this stuff starts going.

如果我抽出时间去与客户交谈，这也不是我作为产品负责人的工作，而是我的产品经理的工作，他们会向我提供客户所说的内容，然后我将它们分解为功能，然后我可以与开发人员合作。”这就是所有这些事情开始进行的方式。

Melissa Perri: What happens in organizations that they don't understand here is that it's not the most efficient way to work.

Melissa Perri：在组织中发生的事情他们不明白，这不是最有效的工作方式。

I see a lot of developers out there become almost ...

我看到很多开发人员几乎变得......

How do you describe it?

你如何描述它？

Reliant on the product manager or product owner to tell them what to do.

依靠产品经理或产品负责人来告诉他们该做什么。

Even though you build them this great vision and you explain what needs to happen, they go, "Oh, I can't work on it because the product owner hasn't prioritized it." Then they asked me, "If I don't have enough for the developers to do on feature work, what are they supposed to do?" I said, "I guarantee you there's a ton of tech debt they could be working on.

即使你为他们建立了这个伟大的愿景，并解释了需要发生什么，他们也会说，“哦，我无法实现它，因为产品负责人没有优先考虑它。”然后他们问我：“如果我没有足够的资源让开发人员完成功能工作，他们应该做什么？”我说：“我向你保证，他们可能正在处理大量的技术债务。

You don't have to scope that out.

您不必确定范围。

Let them choose what's the most important thing.

让他们选择最重要的事情。

They should be working together as developers and architects to figure out how to tackle some of that tech debt, how to get into it while you're figuring out is this the right thing to be building."

他们应该作为开发商和建筑师共同努力，找出如何解决一些技术债务，如何在你弄清楚这是否是正确的建设项目时进入其中。”

Melissa Perri: With all of this stuff, people feel like they don't have time because they're in a million meetings, and the expectations of these companies is that every sprint, we're delivering software towards these roadmaps that we promised in the last quarter and we're not checking to see if they're right, we're not checking to see if they're actually helping us move it forward, and a lot of times the organizations are not set up with the right feedback mechanisms, the right user research and the right data to tell us if everything is working so they can feed that in to the next release planning.

Melissa Perri：有了所有这些东西，人们感觉他们没有时间，因为他们参加了一百万次会议，这些公司的期望是，每次冲刺，我们都在为上个季度承诺的这些路线图提供软件，但我们没有检查它们是否正确，我们没有检查他们是否真的在帮助我们向前推进，而且很多时候，组织没有建立正确的反馈机制、正确的用户研究和正确的数据来实现目标。告诉我们一切是否正常，以便他们可以将其反馈到下一个发布计划中。

They're just planning, planning, planning, breaking it down into sprints and going.

他们只是计划、计划、计划，将其分解为冲刺然后继续。

Melissa Perri: SAFe is not good at describing how you do all that other work.

Melissa Perri：SAFe 不擅长描述您如何完成所有其他工作。

In a lot of this stuff too, there's pieces that they put onto this map of SAFe where they're like, "Hey, you should do OKRs," and it's like, "This is what OKRs are.

在很多这样的东西中，他们也将一些片段放在 SAFe 地图上，他们就像，“嘿，你应该做 OKR”，就像，“这就是 OKR。

You should do a roadmap.

你应该做一个路线图。

This is what a roadmap is." How all of that cycle works together where you're balancing discovery and delivery and feeding it in is really confusing in organizations.

这就是路线图。”在组织中，如何平衡发现和交付并将其反馈到整个循环中，这确实令人困惑。

Then what it's basically saying is a lot of the discovery work goes into the product managers, and the product managers, the product owners report into the product managers.

然后它基本上说的是很多发现工作都交给产品经理，产品经理、产品负责人向产品经理汇报。

What I've seen that doesn't work here is that you're basically making these product owners order-takers.

我所看到的在这里行不通的是，你基本上是在让这些产品所有者成为订单接受者。

They are extremely tactical, and then when it's time to actually be more strategic, let's say you want to be promoted to a product manager, some organizations, that's not even the same business line, not even the same career path.

他们非常注重战术，然后当真正需要更具战略性时，假设您想晋升为产品经理，在某些组织中，这甚至不是同一个业务线，甚至不是同一个职业道路。

It's product owners go over here and product managers go here and they report into different people.

产品负责人到这里，产品经理到这里，他们向不同的人汇报。

Melissa Perri: If you ever want to move from product owner to product manager, a lot of times you don't get experience with the strategy, figuring out what customers want, breaking it down, looking at the market research, determining is this valuable, is this what we should be working on.

Melissa Perri：如果你想从产品负责人晋升为产品经理，很多时候你没有获得策略方面的经验，无法弄清楚客户想要什么，将其分解，查看市场研究，确定这是否有价值，这就是我们应该努力的方向。

They're not even getting exposure or a chance to do that because SAFe is like, "No, that's the product manager's job.

他们甚至没有获得曝光或机会这样做，因为 SAFe 的意思是，“不，那是产品经理的工作。

Your job is to go really deep and work with the developers."

你的工作就是深入并与开发人员合作。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。

A lot of this sounds quite absurd as someone hearing all of the details and looking at this image.

当有人听到所有细节并看着这张图片时，很多事情听起来都很荒谬。

That being said, many companies are adopting this.

话虽这么说，许多公司正在采用这一点。

It feels like it's growing.

感觉像是在成长。

More and more companies are adopting this as the way to work.

越来越多的公司正在采用这种工作方式。

I imagine the incentive is we just want to build great software and we don't know exactly how, and there's this process we can plug in and it'll help us do it.

我想动机是我们只是想构建出色的软件，但我们不知道具体如何构建，而我们可以插入这个流程，它将帮助我们做到这一点。

I guess thoughts on that, and do you find it can work or often works or often doesn't work?

我想对此有一些想法，您是否发现它可以起作用或经常起作用或经常不起作用？

What is your experience with people adopting this and how it goes?

您对人们采用此技术的体验如何？进展如何？

Melissa Perri: I know a ton of companies that adopted SAFe about eight years ago and have gotten rid of it.

Melissa Perri：我知道很多公司在大约八年前采用了 SAFe，但现在已经放弃了它。

Capital One just came out and said they got rid of all their agile roles, all their Scrum roles.

第一资本刚刚出来表示他们摆脱了所有敏捷角色和所有 Scrum 角色。

They were early adopter of SAFe, they don't do it anymore.

他们是 SAFe 的早期采用者，但他们不再这样做了。

They wrote about that in the newspaper.

他们在报纸上写到了这一点。

I've seen it happen more often.

我经常看到这种情况发生。

Now, in a lot of our organizations too I'll see parts of them do SAFe and other parts not do SAFe.

现在，在我们的许多组织中，我也会看到其中一部分执行 SAFe，而其他部分则不执行 SAFe。

It could change business line to business line.

它可能会改变业务线。

I don't think though that people grasp how much it's still out there.

但我认为人们并没有意识到它还有多少。

I get questions on SAFe every single day on the podcast.

我每天都会在播客上收到有关 SAFe 的问题。

Everybody asks me, "Why are we still doing this?" It's for what you said, executives buy SAFe because it's the only framework out there that basically draws them a map and says, "Plug and play, do this."

每个人都问我：“为什么我们还要这样做？”正如你所说，高管们购买 SAFe 是因为它是唯一一个基本上可以为他们绘制地图并说“即插即用，执行此操作”的框架。

Melissa Perri: That's why everybody's so excited about it because it's the only thing that specifies things to this level, and they went, "Oh, it's something I can understand, it's something that actually has definitions around it." To be fair, that was a great thing for SAFe to do as a marketing tool.

梅丽莎·佩里：这就是为什么每个人都对它如此兴奋，因为它是唯一将事物指定到这个级别的东西，他们说，“哦，这是我能理解的东西，它实际上是有定义的东西。”公平地说，对于 SAFe 作为营销工具来说这是一件很棒的事情。

Bravo, they created this thing that everybody wants, a good product to sell, but it's overkill, and that's what I keep hearing from organizations is it's basically taking the responsibility away from leaders to go figure their stuff out themselves as well.

太棒了，他们创造了每个人都想要的东西，一个好卖的产品，但这有点矫枉过正，这就是我不断从组织那里听到的，它基本上剥夺了领导者自己解决问题的责任。

If you are a new leader and you've just been dropped into this role, I have tremendous empathy for them because yeah, where do you get started?

如果你是新领导者并且刚刚担任这个角色，我对他们非常同情，因为是的，你从哪里开始？

How do you try to run a technology organization?

您如何尝试运营一家技术组织？

Melissa Perri: Somebody came and told me, the CIO came and told me I'm in charge now.

Melissa Perri：有人来告诉我，首席信息官来告诉我现在由我负责。

I'm in charge of all of the developers, or I'm in charge of all the product managers.

我负责所有的开发人员，或者我负责所有的产品经理。

Now, where do you start?

现在，你从哪里开始？

I can totally tell why people adopt SAFe because you're like, "Oh, I've been looking for the handbook.

我完全可以理解为什么人们采用 SAFe，因为你会说，“哦，我一直在寻找手册。

I've been looking for something to do here." The problem is it's only solving a little bit of the puzzle, which is bringing those teams together.

我一直想在这里找点事做。”问题是它只是解决了难题的一小部分，它将这些团队聚集在一起。

People do say it does really strains well, but it doesn't tell you also how to do your job as a leader, it leaves it all out.

人们确实说它确实很紧张，但它并没有告诉你如何做好领导者的工作，它把一切都抛在了一边。

They talk about portfolio visions and portfolio management and SAFe there too, but more often than not, I come in and I find everybody above product owners and product managers, let's talk about directors of product, VPs of product, they don't know what they should be doing as a VP of product or a director of product.

他们也在那里谈论投资组合愿景、投资组合管理和 SAFe，但通常情况下，我进来后发现每个人都高于产品所有者和产品经理，让我们谈谈产品总监、产品副总裁，他们不知道作为产品副总裁或产品总监应该做什么。

It's like, "What's my role?

就像，“我的角色是什么？

What should I be feeding in here?"

我应该在这里吃什么？”

Melissa Perri: SAFe doesn't even have that in there, that's not even a role.

Melissa Perri：SAFe 甚至没有这个，那甚至不是一个角色。

Product manager going up into those levels is not really there.

产品经理实际上并没有达到这些级别。

What do you do when you own a whole product line in an organization?

当您在组织中拥有整个产品线时，您会做什么？

What you do when you're the head of product for a credit card at a bank, right?

当您担任银行信用卡产品主管时，您会做什么，对吗？

What's my job?

我的工作是什么？

Doesn't say that.

没这么说。

There's a lot of people out there in these organizations that I've been working with who I'm like, "You are supposed to be doing strategy, and this is how you do strategy.

在这些组织中，我一直与很多人一起工作，我喜欢这样的人：“你应该制定战略，而这就是你制定战略的方式。

This is how you go out and talk to customers.

这就是你出去与客户交谈的方式。

This is the patterns that we have in software.

这就是我们在软件中的模式。

Are you doing a platform strategy?

您正在制定平台战略吗？

Do you need APIs?

您需要 API 吗？

How do you think about your app strategy, rolling it out?

您如何看待您的应用策略并推出它？

How do you do this here?" All of that stuff doesn't quite come from ways of working, which is what SAFe is doing.

你怎么在这里做到这一点？”所有这些东西并不完全来自工作方式，而这正是 SAFe 正在做的事情。

It's about how do you do your jobs in those areas?

这是关于你如何在这些领域开展工作？

Melissa Perri: A lot of organizations who adopt SAFe don't realize that you need a head of product, you need somebody to actually be feeding that vision all the way down and make sure it's breaking up around the teams and controlling that portfolio vision and doing all of these things into it.

Melissa Perri：许多采用 SAFe 的组织没有意识到您需要一名产品负责人，您需要有人真正将这一愿景一直贯彻下去，并确保它在团队周围分解并控制该投资组合愿景并完成所有这些事情。

I have not seen SAFe slowing down by any means out there for people adopting it, I see more and more organizations adopting it.

我没有看到 SAFe 的人们采用它的速度有任何放缓，我看到越来越多的组织采用它。

I think we take for granted too in Silicon Valley how many people are just starting on their journey for digital transformation.

我认为在硅谷，我们也理所当然地认为有多少人刚刚开始数字化转型之旅。

There's a lot of pharmaceutical companies, banks, insurance companies, they outsource their development or they had an IT team, but they never had to really think about it before because digital wasn't as important.

有很多制药公司、银行、保险公司，他们将开发外包或者拥有 IT 团队，但他们以前从未真正考虑过这一点，因为数字化并不那么重要。

Now they do.

现在他们做到了。

Melissa Perri: Some of these companies, most of these companies are Fortune 50 companies, right?

Melissa Perri：其中一些公司，大部分都是财富 50 强公司，对吗？

Fortune 100 companies.

财富 100 强企业。

I think a lot of the ones I see, at least banks, realized early on, "Hey, when it comes to apps and how people interact with our stuff, software is important," but there's a lot of companies that did not catch that train and they're just starting, and then they turn to things like SAFe because it gives them a guideline.

我认为我看到的很多公司，至少是银行，很早就意识到，“嘿，当谈到应用程序以及人们如何与我们的东西互动时，软件很重要”，但有很多公司没有赶上这趟车，他们才刚刚起步，然后他们转向 SAFe 这样的公司，因为它为他们提供了指导。

"Hey, I've never done this before.

“嘿，我以前从来没有这样做过。

I've been in this bank for 40 years.

我在这家银行工作了 40 年。

All I know is waterfall type development.

我所知道的是瀑布式开发。

What do we do?" Then we'll go, "We'll go look at SAFe."

我们该怎么办？”然后我们会说，“我们会去看看 SAFe。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we spend time on that because I think it's really important.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢我们花时间在这上面，因为我认为这非常重要。

You can be cynical about all this and be like, "What the hell are people thinking?

你可以对这一切感到愤世嫉俗，然后说：“人们到底在想什么？

This is crazy," but as you described, people just have a problem to solve, they've never done this before, they look for solutions, they find something that seems right, they see other people doing this and like, "Okay, let's try this thing." What you've seen is it rarely actually works out the SAFe specific approach.

这太疯狂了，”但正如你所描述的，人们只是有一个问题需要解决，他们以前从未这样做过，他们寻找解决方案，他们找到了一些看起来正确的东西，他们看到其他人这样做，然后喜欢，“好吧，让我们尝试这个事情。”您所看到的是，它很少真正制定出 SAFe 特定方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a few ways I think we can help folks.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我们可以通过几种方式帮助人们。

One is someone trying to do say an agile transformation or a digital transformation, your advice for how to actually do that better.

一个是有人试图进行敏捷转型或数字化转型，您建议如何更好地实际做到这一点。

Then I want to talk about say you're a product owner or a PM within an organization that works like this.

然后我想谈谈，假设你是一个像这样工作的组织中的产品负责人或产品经理。

What can you do?

你能做什么？

Maybe let's start with the first.

也许让我们从第一个开始。

Say someone's trying to figure out, "We need to build better products.

假设有人试图弄清楚：“我们需要打造更好的产品。

Something's not working right." SAFe is an option.

出了什么问题。” SAFe 是一种选择。

Your suggestion is don't maybe do that.

你的建议是不要这样做。

What should people do?

人们应该做什么？

I know you're not going to have the answer in a short answer, but generally, how should people approach this?

我知道您不会在简短的回答中得到答案，但一般来说，人们应该如何处理这个问题？

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

When I've worked with companies on digital transformations, you want a development operating model.

当我与数字化转型公司合作时，你需要一个开发运营模式。

That's where a lot of these agile methodologies came out of.

这就是许多敏捷方法论的来源。

You have to understand that's just the development operating model, that's not actually going to help you with go-to-market, with launching your products and with product management.

您必须明白，这只是开发运营模式，实际上并不能帮助您进入市场、推出产品和进行产品管理。

What I advise for companies to do is first sit down and say, "Hey, how do we think about building our operating model?" When I think of product operating models and what I do with companies is we break out how do you determine product strategy?

我建议公司首先坐下来说：“嘿，我们如何考虑建立我们的运营模式？”当我想到产品运营模式以及我对公司所做的事情时，我们会如何确定产品策略？

Do you have a good product strategy?

你有好的产品策略吗？

You look at your organizational design.

你看看你的组织设计。

How are we actually organized around our products?

我们实际上是如何围绕我们的产品进行组织的？

Do we have good coverage of product managers and do we have skilled product managers up and down the organization?

我们是否拥有良好的产品经理覆盖范围？组织上下是否拥有熟练的产品经理？

Melissa Perri: Then we want to look at product operations.

Melissa Perri：然后我们想看看产品运营。

Do we have the infrastructure in there to help support these teams?

我们有基础设施来帮助支持这些团队吗？

Can they get the data to make decisions?

他们能否获得数据来做出决策？

Can they actually be in touch with customers?

他们真的能与客户取得联系吗？

A lot of these large organizations haven't actually thought through many of those steps as well that enable product managers and development teams to be successful.

许多大型组织实际上并没有考虑到使产品经理和开发团队取得成功的许多步骤。

They don't have ways for them to go and talk to customers.

他们没有办法去与客户交谈。

That's why they're not doing it.

这就是为什么他们不这样做。

I have a lot of empathy for people in these organizations as well who can't do product management well because of the bureaucracy or the things around it.

我对这些组织中的人们也非常同情，因为官僚主义或周围的事物而无法做好产品管理。

Leaders need to solve that, right?

领导者需要解决这个问题，对吗？

They need to understand what the role is and they need to open it up.

他们需要了解这个角色是什么，并且需要敞开心扉。

Melissa Perri: Then we got to look at our culture and incentives.

Melissa Perri：然后我们必须审视我们的文化和激励措施。

Are we just rewarding people for shipping as many things as possible, which is like, "Hey, just put everything you possibly can into that release train or that backlog," or are we coming back and saying, "Hey, is this valuable?

我们是否只是奖励那些交付尽可能多的东西的人，就像，“嘿，把你能做的一切都放入发布列车或待办事项中，”或者我们回过头来说，“嘿，这有价值吗？

Is this tying it back to our business?" Many organizations do not have a great product strategy, many large organizations that I've worked with, and it's that tying it back to the value piece, tying it back to, is this going to reach our company goals?

这是把它和我们的生意联系起来了吗？”许多组织没有出色的产品策略，我曾与许多大型组织合作过，将其与价值部分联系起来，将其与价值联系起来，这是否能够实现我们公司的目标？

If you are a huge organization and let's say making billions of dollars a year, and your goal is expand geographically, what are you doing in your portfolio to actually enable that?

如果您是一家大型组织，假设每年赚取数十亿美元，并且您的目标是扩大地域范围，那么您在投资组合中做了哪些工作来真正实现这一目标？

What products are you building to expand geographically?

您正在开发哪些产品来扩展地域？

So many organizations don't have the transparency to actually even see that.

许多组织甚至没有透明度来真正看到这一点。

Melissa Perri: One crazy thing, a lot of people give large organizations a lot of flack for, and I know Marty does this too, for focusing on processes.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：一件疯狂的事情，很多人都对大型组织给予了很多批评，我知道马蒂也这样做，因为他专注于流程。

I don't think processes are the enemy here.

我不认为流程是这里的敌人。

For example, if I hear somebody really worried about getting a roadmapping tool in there or something like that, I'm like, "Yes, you need that because you have no idea what your 4,000 teams are doing." If they're actually coming back to the business goals, you have no infrastructure in there to be able to see that transparency.

例如，如果我听到有人真的担心在那里获得路线图工具或类似的东西，我会说，“是的，你需要它，因为你不知道你的 4,000 个团队在做什么。”如果他们实际上回到了业务目标，那么您就没有基础设施来能够看到这种透明度。

Those types of blocking tackling is absolutely necessary for a transformation for a organization to be stood up around software product management.

对于要围绕软件产品管理进行的组织转型来说，这些类型的阻塞处理是绝对必要的。

You have to have the transparency to actually see those things.

你必须具有透明度才能真正看到这些事情。

Melissa Perri: You do need to have enough process so that you as an organization can be efficient in getting things out the door, and that's what I think SAFe was trying to do, but it's not working because it's not solving the problems of the product management and it's not solving that problem of connecting the value back to the product teams.

Melissa Perri：你确实需要有足够的流程，这样你作为一个组织才能有效地把事情推出去，这就是我认为 SAFe 试图做的事情，但它不起作用，因为它没有解决产品管理的问题，也没有解决将价值连接回产品团队的问题。

Instead, it's seen as a role that almost babysits developers or tells everybody what to do.

相反，它被视为一个几乎照顾开发人员或告诉每个人该做什么的角色。

Where's the discovery?

发现在哪里？

Where do those things come in?

这些东西从哪里来？

I know with the SAFe image that we got over here, they try to drop things like Lean UX in there, which Jeff Gothelf thinks it's hilarious, but it's not really pulling it all together of how do we do this on a cadence?

我知道，通过我们在这里获得的 SAFe 图像，他们试图将精益用户体验之类的东西扔进去，Jeff Gothelf 认为这很搞笑，但它并没有真正将我们如何按节奏做到这一点？

How do we help people go out there and actually talk to customers?

我们如何帮助人们走出去并与客户进行实际交谈？

How do we enable them to do it?

我们如何让他们能够做到这一点？

Melissa Perri: If you're starting a transformation, it's not just thinking about how do we build the product, but you should also be thinking about how do we launch the product and how do we make sure this is the right product to do.

Melissa Perri：如果您要开始转型，那么不仅仅要考虑我们如何构建产品，还应该考虑我们如何推出产品以及如何确保这是正确的产品。

That's the big pieces of it, and that's where all that product strategy comes in.

这就是其中的重要部分，也是所有产品策略的用武之地。

You should also look at the career paths.

您还应该看看职业道路。

This is what really bothers me about agile transformations and what bothers me with Scrum and SAFe is that when we organized in these large organizations into agile teams, we made all these new roles called a product owner, and so many organizations don't have a career path for them so they email me and they go, "What's my career path?

这就是敏捷转型真正困扰我的地方，而 Scrum 和 SAFe 令我困扰的是，当我们在这些大型组织中组织敏捷团队时，我们将所有这些新角色称为产品负责人，而许多组织没有适合他们的职业道路，所以他们给我发电子邮件，他们说：“我的职业道路是什么？

What do I do next?

接下来我该怎么办？

Where am I supposed to go?"

我该去哪里？”

Melissa Perri: I've been saying for 10 years, this is not a team role, it's not just a team role, it's a business role and it rolls all the way up to helping you further your business.

Melissa Perri：十年来我一直在说，这不是一个团队角色，它不仅仅是一个团队角色，它是一个业务角色，它会一直帮助您进一步发展您的业务。

You have to make sure that people on teams can be promoted to running multiple teams, can be promoted to running an entire product line.

你必须确保团队中的人员可以晋升为管理多个团队，可以晋升为管理整个产品线。

To us, that's so simple in Silicon Valley native software companies, but it's still unheard of in other organizations.

对我们来说，这在硅谷本土软件公司中是如此简单，但在其他组织中仍然闻所未闻。

What happens too, and this is where I think leadership and C-suite needs to really pay attention, because we're transforming in this way of working, what happens is some of the roles that we had before do not serve us now.

也会发生什么，我认为这就是领导层和最高管理层需要真正关注的地方，因为我们正在以这种工作方式进行转变，所发生的情况是我们以前的一些角色现在不再为我们服务。

Maybe we don't need a million project managers, maybe people in the business who decided what we're going to build, are they the right people to bring with us on this next phase into product management?

也许我们不需要一百万个项目经理，也许是决定我们要构建什么的业务人员，他们是我们下一阶段产品管理的合适人选吗？

Can they learn?

他们能学习吗？

Can they grok software?

他们能理解软件吗？

Do they understand those pieces?

他们理解这些片段吗？

That's what we have to ask.

这就是我们要问的。

Melissa Perri: Organizations are so afraid sometimes to put these career ladders in because it kind of overhauls their traditional ways of working, and then they've got people who've been in these organizations for 40 years and now you're saying, "Hey, you're actually not in charge of that, the product manager is in charge of that," and that's scary.

Melissa Perri：组织有时非常害怕设置这些职业阶梯，因为这有点彻底改变他们传统的工作方式，然后他们有在这些组织工作了 40 年的人，现在你说，“嘿，实际上不是你负责的，产品经理负责的，”这很可怕。

A lot of them get in the way because of that.

他们中的很多人因此而受到阻碍。

If you really want to transform though, the C-suite has to be like, "Hey, we're going in this direction," and just put it down because I've seen it run by a lot of middle managers, a transformation run by tons of middle managers, and those are the jobs that are usually in most jeopardy when you start transforming and you have to re-skill and you have to figure out what to do, and they don't want to do that.

如果你真的想转型，最高管理层必须说，“嘿，我们正在朝这个方向前进”，然后把它放下，因为我看到它是由很多中层管理人员进行的，由大量中层管理人员进行的转型，而这些工作通常是在你开始转型时最危险的，你必须重新掌握技能，你必须弄清楚该怎么做，而他们不想这样做。

They're not going to be the ones who jump up and down and say, "Hey, let's do this."

他们不会是那些跳上跳下并说：“嘿，让我们这样做吧。”

Melissa Perri: There's a lot of people out there, I think, pushing organizations to try harder and to internally as well.

Melissa Perri：我认为，有很多人在推动组织更加努力，内部也如此。

I've worked with a lot of people who run these transformations who just really want it to work, and I think they do it with the best of intentions, but the C-suite has to understand this is not just a transformation project, this is a whole new way of working, and if we want a whole new way of working, we have to really rise to that occasion.

我曾与很多负责这些转型的人共事过，他们真的希望转型能够发挥作用，我认为他们这样做的初衷是最好的，但最高管理层必须明白，这不仅仅是一个转型项目，这是一种全新的工作方式，如果我们想要一种全新的工作方式，我们就必须真正适应这种情况。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Coda 为您带来。

I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows, from collecting questions for guests, to storing all my research, to managing my newsletter content calendar.

我每天都使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和时事通讯工作流程，从收集客人的问题，到存储我的所有研究成果，再到管理我的时事通讯内容日历。

Coda is my go-to app and has been for years.

Coda 是我的首选应用程序，多年来一直如此。

Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help me get more done, and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

Coda 结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，帮助我完成更多工作，Coda 可以通过在一个位置管理您的计划周期、在团队和利益相关者之间全面可见的情况下设置和衡量 OKR、映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险领域，帮助您的团队保持一致并更快地交付。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can also access hundreds of pressure-tested templates, everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，从路线图策略到最终决策框架的一切内容。

See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda.

亲自了解为什么 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等公司在 Coda 上运行。

Take advantage of this special limited-time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan.

前往 coda.io/lenny 并注册即可获得六个月免费的团队计划。

That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan.

可以在 coda.io/lenny 上注册并获得六个月的团队计划。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a few things I want to pull out from what you just shared.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想从您刚才分享的内容中提取一些内容。

One is, just to clarify, you recommend not using SAFe, you don't think that's a good approach?

一是，澄清一下，您建议不要使用 SAFe，您认为这不是一个好方法吗？

Melissa Perri: I do not recommend using SAFe.

Melissa Perri：我不建议使用 SAFe。

Yeah.

是的。

Melissa Perri: There are people who like SAFe.

Melissa Perri：有人喜欢 SAFe。

Let me just say this, there are people who found success with SAFe.

我只想说，有人通过 SAFe 取得了成功。

Every single person I have talked to who like SAFe found success with SAFe, they ended up ripping it up and making it into something else.

我采访过的每一个喜欢 SAFe 的人都通过 SAFe 取得了成功，但他们最终都将其撕毁并改造成其他东西。

It's not actually SAFe by the book.

按照书本来看，它实际上并不安全。

If you do that, fine, that's any process.

如果你这样做了，那好吧，这就是任何过程。

If you ended up adopting SAFe and you want to go back and look at it and say, "Actually let's just get rid of all the stuff that's not working and keep the stuff that is," fine, but being open to understanding this is not the way that we do good product management.

如果您最终采用了 SAFe，并且想回头看看它并说：“实际上，让我们摆脱所有不起作用的东西并保留有用的东西”，好吧，但开放地理解这一点并不是我们进行良好产品管理的方式。

There's not a lot in SAFe about doing good product management.

SAFe 中没有太多关于做好产品管理的内容。

That's the stuff that we have to understand.

这就是我们必须理解的东西。

It could help in certain areas, and I do think it does help in certain areas, bring some rigor to things, but if you take it too far, it will destroy things.

它可以在某些领域有所帮助，而且我确实认为它确实在某些领域有所帮助，给事情带来一些严格性，但如果你做得太过分，它就会毁掉事情。

Melissa Perri: There's actually a great story about a water company in the Netherlands and they decided to adopt SAFe, and this was on the news a couple months ago.

Melissa Perri：实际上有一个关于荷兰一家自来水公司的精彩故事，他们决定采用 SAFe，这是几个月前的新闻。

They decided to adopt SAFe in their IT teams and start working with it.

他们决定在 IT 团队中采用 SAFe 并开始使用它。

They ended up going bankrupt, and the reason they ended up going bankrupt is because the teams were learning the processes for SAFe, they were taking so long to deploy their new invoicing system and payment collections that they couldn't collect payments from customers because they got so caught up in the process.

他们最终破产了，而他们最终破产的原因是因为团队正在学习 SAFe 的流程，他们花了很长时间来部署新的发票系统和付款托收，以至于他们无法向客户收取付款，因为他们在流程中陷入了困境。

Melissa Perri: That's what I see happen a lot in these organizations.

Melissa Perri：我看到这些组织中经常发生这种情况。

Instead of talking about what's really important, which is, "Hey, how are we serving our customers?

而不是谈论真正重要的事情，即“嘿，我们如何为客户服务？

How are we winning in this market?

我们如何在这个市场上获胜？

How do we stem churn?

我们如何阻止客户流失？

How do we do all these things?", we're talking instead about, "What stand-ups are we doing?

我们如何做所有这些事情？”，我们谈论的是，“我们在做什么站立会议？

Oh, how do we do this release planning?

噢，我们如何进行这个发布计划呢？

Oh, my God, you guys didn't sprint back to back, you did it wrong." We're talking about work about work, but we're not actually getting into what are we achieving here, and that's the part I do not like about rigid processes when it comes to this.

天哪，你们没有背靠背冲刺，你们做错了。”我们谈论的是关于工作的工作，但我们实际上并没有真正了解我们在这里取得的成就，这就是我不喜欢僵化流程的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: That touches on the other theme I wanted to bring up is it feels like the stuff is a kind of replacement for skilled, talented people, a product leader that understands how to do these things and has product taste and has organized teams to build great product.

Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到我想提出的另一个主题，那就是感觉这些东西是技术熟练、有才华的人的一种替代品，是一个产品领导者，了解如何做这些事情，有产品品味，并组织团队来构建伟大的产品。

It feels like people are just, "We don't have that so we're going to create this.

感觉就像人们只是说，“我们没有这个，所以我们要创造这个。

This process is going to fix all our problems." Can you talk about just the importance of that, the people you hire to run these things as key to this, if that's true?

这个过程将解决我们所有的问题。”您能否谈谈这一点的重要性，您雇用来管理这些事情的人员是这一切的关键，如果这是真的？

Melissa Perri: In a lot of organizations, the people who buy SAFe, they have not run large scale technology organizations before, or they're new to this way of working so they adopt SAFe and they hope it works because it looks like a nice plan, like we said, to go out and do things.

Melissa Perri：在很多组织中，购买 SAFe 的人以前没有经营过大型技术组织，或者他们对这种工作方式不熟悉，所以他们采用 SAFe，他们希望它能起作用，因为就像我们说的，这看起来是一个很好的计划，可以出去做事。

When you're doing a transformation, a lot of companies are pulling people into these roles for the first time.

当你进行转型时，许多公司都会首次将人员拉入这些角色。

I've said since day one that I've been working with companies, it's okay and I think it's noble to want to train people and put them in different roles.

我从第一天起就说过，我一直在与公司合作，这没关系，我认为想要培训员工并让他们担任不同的角色是高尚的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

If you're going to spend money upskilling your people, do that, but you also have to intersperse people who know what they're doing.

如果你打算花钱提高员工的技能，那就这么做，但你也必须分散那些知道自己在做什么的人。

I think at leadership it's really important to bring in somebody who knows what they're doing to help run this type of thing.

我认为在领导层中，引入一个知道自己在做什么的人来帮助管理此类事情非常重要。

Melissa Perri: There are more people out there and more leaders who have done this before because we've been doing this for 10 years.

Melissa Perri：有更多的人和更多的领导者以前这样做过，因为我们已经这样做了 10 年。

There's Shruti Patel, she's chief product officer at US Bank for small business banking.

施鲁蒂·帕特尔 (Shruti Patel) 是合众银行小企业银行业务的首席产品官。

I just had her on the podcast.

我刚刚让她上了播客。

She worked at Shopify, she saw how great teams worked, and then she was able to come and help apply that at a bank.

她在 Shopify 工作，看到了优秀团队的运作方式，然后她能够来帮助银行应用这一点。

She's experienced, right?

她很有经验吧？

She's an experienced product person who comes in to help.

她是一位经验丰富的产品人员，会过来提供帮助。

Melissa Douros is the CPO of Green Dot Bank and she had worked at Discover Financial leading the transformation there, did all that work, and then could bring it to Green Dot Bank.

Melissa Douros 是 Green Dot Bank 的 CPO，她曾在 Discover Financial 工作，领导那里的转型，完成了所有这些工作，然后可以将其带到 Green Dot Bank。

She can see what needs to happen, what needs to actually go on here.

她可以看到需要发生什么，需要在这里实际进行什么。

Melissa Perri: We've got more and more people out there who have done this before who are looking for these opportunities to do it in the bank, and I think it's important for C-suite to bring them in to actually look at that.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：我们有越来越多的人以前做过这件事，他们正在寻找这些机会在银行做这件事，我认为首席高管让他们真正了解这一点很重要。

Where I've seen transformations be the most successful in all these organizations is when you do that mix, you keep some of your people, but you also bring people in to learn.

我认为在所有这些组织中转型最成功的地方是，当你进行这种混合时，你保留了一些员工，但你也让人们进来学习。

I get hired all the time to come in and train.

我总是被雇用来接受培训。

I've worked with almost every Fortune 50 company at this point, fortune 100 company too, and I get in, I come in to train a lot of product managers.

目前，我已经与几乎所有财富 50 强公司合作过，也曾与财富 100 强公司合作过，我加入了，我进来培训了很多产品经理。

We do it through Product Institute and we'll train everybody.

我们通过产品研究所来做到这一点，我们将对每个人进行培训。

What used to happen about eight years ago is they train everybody and they would say, "Go." Where do you go after you bring in the consultants to do training to keep learning?

大约八年前发生的情况是，他们训练每个人，然后他们会说：“开始吧。”引进顾问做培训后，你去哪里继续学习？

How do they watch other people in the organization do great product management if there's nobody in the organization who's done it before?

如果组织中没有人以前做过出色的产品管理，他们如何看待组织中的其他人完成了出色的产品管理？

Melissa Perri: Luckily I think a lot of organizations are realizing that, so more leaders are out there who are saying, "Hey, I've got to actually intersperse skills here.

梅丽莎·佩里：幸运的是，我认为很多组织都意识到了这一点，所以更多的领导者会说：“嘿，我必须在这里真正散布技能。

I need to bring in some more directors who are experienced here, some more individual contributors who are experienced here." Those organizations I think are wildly successful because they recognize it and they say, "I've got to make sure that people can learn from others." That's how you keep developing, that's how we all keep developing, it's not just doing all external classes.

我需要引进更多在这里有经验的导演，更多在这里有经验的个人贡献者。”我认为这些组织非常成功，因为他们认识到这一点，并且他们说：“我必须确保人们可以向他人学习。”这就是你不断发展的方式，这就是我们所有人不断发展的方式，而不仅仅是做所有的外部课程。

That's where I think these things become powerful.

这就是我认为这些东西变得强大的地方。

You could do that at all levels.

你可以在各个层面上做到这一点。

You don't have to just do it with the teams, you could do it at director level, you could do it at VP level.

你不必只与团队一起做，你可以在总监级别上做，你可以在副总裁级别上做。

That's how we should be thinking about this.

这就是我们应该如何思考这个问题。

Melissa Perri: Now, there are some CPOs out there and some VPs of product in these large organizations who are new to this way of working, but they've committed themselves to learning and to trying to figure out how to do it best.

Melissa Perri：现在，这些大型组织中有一些 CPO 和一些产品副总裁对这种工作方式不熟悉，但他们致力于学习并试图找出最好的方法。

They're not saying, "Hey, I'm just going to adopt SAFe or I'm just going to do whatever is over here," they're actually saying, "What don't I know?" I'm watching them go out to talk to other CPOs, do all these other things.

他们不会说，“嘿，我只是要采用 SAFe，或者我只是要做这里的任何事情”，他们实际上是在说，“我不知道什么？”我看着他们出去与其他 CPO 交谈，做所有其他事情。

They usually have great market knowledge, great business knowledge, and they're fantastic at strategy, and then they hire people underneath them who are great at the other pieces like the execution and getting the software at the door.

他们通常拥有丰富的市场知识、丰富的商业知识，而且非常擅长战略，然后他们会聘请在他们下面擅长其他方面（例如执行和软件交付）的人。

I think those people are successful in it as well because they notice their skill gaps and they hire for it just like any great leader would.

我认为这些人在这方面也取得了成功，因为他们注意到了自己的技能差距，并像任何伟大的领导者一样为此进行招聘。

Melissa Perri: In these organizations, I do see sometimes SAFe for something being a crutch for people who don't know what they're doing to bring in.

Melissa Perri：在这些组织中，我确实看到有时 SAFe 对于那些不知道自己要做什么的人来说是一种拐杖。

If you really think about, "Hey, how do I make this better?", and have that continuous learning mindset and that way to want to propel this forward, I think you'll consider other options and start to think about broader than just SAFe, broader than just agile, what do we need to make this successful?

如果你真的思考，“嘿，我怎样才能做得更好？”，并且有持续学习的心态和想要推动这一点的方式，我想你会考虑其他选择，并开始思考比 SAFe 更广泛的问题，比敏捷更广泛的问题，我们需要什么才能取得成功？

Melissa Perri: The key part of this too is recognizing that product management is not just this role in Scrum.

Melissa Perri：其中的关键部分是认识到产品管理不仅仅是 Scrum 中的这个角色。

I say this in my talk too, I say Take Scrum away.

我在演讲中也这么说过，我说“拿走 Scrum”。

You still need product management, right?

你还需要产品管理，对吧？

Product owner doesn't exist without Scrum, that's not a thing, but you still need product managers and that's why all product owners should be product managers, they should be fundamentally product managers.

没有 Scrum，产品负责人就不存在，这不是一件事，但你仍然需要产品经理，这就是为什么所有产品负责人都应该是产品经理，他们从根本上应该是产品经理。

That's why I do not like these career trajectories that keep them separate.

这就是为什么我不喜欢这些将他们分开的职业轨迹。

Sure, if you want to have a principal IC product manager like they do in a lot of large Silicon Valley companies, perfect, let people keep working on those things.

当然，如果你想拥有一位首席 IC 产品经理，就像许多硅谷大公司那样，那就完美了，让人们继续致力于这些事情。

They don't have to go into management, but that doesn't mean they're different.

他们不必进入管理层，但这并不意味着他们与众不同。

Between an IC product owner and an IC product manager, it shouldn't be different there.

IC 产品所有者和 IC 产品经理之间应该没有什么不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect segue to where I wanted to go next, which is say you are a product owner today listening to this and you're like, "Man, this is exactly my life.

Lenny Rachitsky：完美地过渡到我下一步想去的地方，也就是说，你今天是一名产品负责人，听到这个，你会说，“伙计，这就是我的生活。

What can I do?", what's your advice to folks in that role right now about how to potentially become product managers, build the skills they need to not just be stuck in this career path that doesn't go anywhere?

我能做什么？”，您对现在担任该职位的人有什么建议，关于如何成为产品经理，如何培养他们所需的技能，而不是仅仅停留在这条不会有任何进展的职业道路上？

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

I think the first thing is bringing awareness to that your role is more than just working with the developers.

我认为首先要让人们意识到你的角色不仅仅是与开发人员合作。

A lot of leaders argue with me that we need product owners because it just doesn't scale.

许多领导者与我争论，我们需要产品负责人，因为它无法扩展。

You've seen massive companies at scale where they don't have any product owners.

您已经看到过规模庞大的公司没有任何产品负责人。

I do not understand that.

我不明白。

It's a weak argument to me, it's a very weak argument.

对我来说，这是一个无力的论据，这是一个非常无力的论据。

It just means you don't know how to distribute the work evenly and give a little bit of strategic guidance to product owners so that they can gon, or product managers, on a team so that they can go and build visions and cut down features and stuff like that.

这只是意味着你不知道如何均匀地分配工作，也不知道如何为产品负责人提供一点战略指导，以便他们可以在团队中工作，或者产品经理，以便他们可以去构建愿景并削减功能之类的东西。

If you're a product owner and you're like, "Hey, I don't have the opportunity to talk to customers, my product manager does that.

如果你是产品负责人，你会说，“嘿，我没有机会与客户交谈，这是我的产品经理做的。

I am just working with the teams.

我只是和团队一起工作。

I want to be more strategic, I want to think longer term," I'd say try to take some ownership over that and push back on the things that are being given to you.

我想要更具战略性，我想考虑更长远的问题，”我会说尝试对此拥有一些所有权，并推迟给予你的事情。

Melissa Perri: I was doing a workshop for Mind the Product back in the day, and I had a product owner in my workshop and she said, "I don't think that things we're working on," they were doing SAFe, "are the right things to work on." I said, "You should bring this to your manager," and she was like, "I don't know.

Melissa Perri：当时我正在为“关注产品”举办一个研讨会，我的工作室里有一位产品负责人，她说，“我不认为我们正在做的事情，”他们正在做 SAFe，“是正确的事情。”我说，“你应该把这个带给你的经理，”她说，“我不知道。

I'm going to get fired.

我要被解雇了。

I don't think it's the right thing.

我不认为这是正确的事情。

What am I going to work on if we're not going to work on this?" I'm like, "Well, this is the beauty of product instead of project, we stay with the product." Just because your project ends doesn't mean that you lose a job.

如果我们不为此努力，我要做什么？”我想，“好吧，这就是产品而不是项目的美妙之处，我们坚持产品。”项目结束并不意味着您会失业。

She put together this whole thing, went and said, "I don't think we should be working on this," and they promoted her.

她把整个事情放在一起，然后说：“我认为我们不应该在这件事上努力”，然后他们就提拔了她。

They were like, "Fantastic." She took this leap of faith and went out there and started saying, "This is more.

他们说：“太棒了。”她勇敢地迈出了这一步，走出去开始说：“这还有更多。

We need to do more."

我们需要做更多的事情。”

Melissa Perri: I think if you're a product owner and there's no career path for you, start asking leaders what your career path is because it's going to make them go, "Oh, great question.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：我认为，如果你是一名产品负责人，并且没有适合你的职业道路，那么开始询问领导者你的职业道路是什么，因为这会让他们说：“哦，好问题。

What should the career path be?" There's a lot of literature out there about how we make career paths, so you can start there.

职业道路应该是什么？”有很多关于我们如何制定职业道路的文献，所以您可以从那里开始。

Ask what's next for you after this product owner role.

询问在担任产品负责人角色之后您的下一步是什么。

I would ask the product managers if they're doing all the customer research, see if you can do some customer research with them.

我会问产品经理他们是否正在做所有的客户研究，看看你是否可以和他们一起做一些客户研究。

Go sit in on this.

去坐坐吧。

A lot of them will say, "I don't have time.

很多人会说：“我没有时间。

I don't have time to do this." Strip back all the user stories you're working on, stop thinking about it as a quantitative metric that needs to just go up and up.

我没有时间做这件事。”剥离你正在处理的所有用户故事，停止将其视为需要不断上升的定量指标。

Instead, really think about the value you're delivering with your team.

相反，真正考虑一下您与团队一起提供的价值。

Is this the right thing?

这是正确的事情吗？

Melissa Perri: When you talk to leaders and when you present your case, you say it in a way of, "Hey, I'm working on X, Y, and Z feature.

Melissa Perri：当你与领导者交谈并陈述你的案例时，你会这样说：“嘿，我正在研究 X、Y 和 Z 功能。

What's the goal here?

这里的目标是什么？

When we release this, what do we hope will happen?" I think that's one of the best questions anybody can ask if they're worried their company is not focused on outcomes.

当我们发布这个时，我们希望会发生什么？”我认为，如果任何人担心自己的公司不注重结果，那么这是最好的问题之一。

What do we hope will happen when we release this?

当我们发布这个时，我们希望会发生什么？

What metrics are we going to change?

我们要改变哪些指标？

How do we instrument it to make sure that's true?

我们如何对其进行检测以确保这是真的？

Then we can go back and actually see if it changed.

然后我们可以回去看看它是否发生了变化。

One simple question to get alignment on it, and then you can start to say, "Oh, that didn't work or this did work." Great.

提出一个简单的问题来达成一致，然后你可以开始说，“哦，那个不起作用，或者这个起作用了。”伟大的。

Why did it work?

为什么它有效？

You can open up those conversations.

您可以打开这些对话。

Melissa Perri: I'd say there's a lot of things you can do to help move your companies forward, and I have seen in a lot of these organizations too, a groundswell of product owners and product managers saying, "Hey, what's next for me?

Melissa Perri：我想说，你可以做很多事情来帮助推动你的公司向前发展，我也在很多这样的组织中看到，产品所有者和产品经理的呼声很高，“嘿，我下一步该做什么？

What's going on?" That makes the organizations go and figure it out.

发生什么事了？”这促使组织去解决这个问题。

I was working with one Fortune 10 company not too long ago, their C-suite, I've been working with them for a very long time and they're finally like, "Hey, we're going to codify the product manager role and we're going to have it all the way up and down our organization, we're going to make roles, we're going to make responsibilities." To me, that was music to my ears, but the reason they were doing it too is because they noticed there was a lot of churn in the organization in that role, and they also realized it's a critical role.

不久前，我曾与一家财富 10 强公司合作，他们的最高管理层，我已经与他们合作了很长时间，他们最终会说，“嘿，我们将把产品经理的角色编入法典，我们将在整个组织的上下都采用它，我们将扮演角色，我们将承担责任。”对我来说，这听起来很美妙，但他们也这样做的原因是因为他们注意到该职位在组织中存在很多流失，而且他们也意识到这是一个关键角色。

Melissa Perri: They're losing good people because people from the outside are coming because they want to work for this great big organization that's doing super well, fantastic, but they get in there and they go, "Where's my career path?

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：他们正在失去优秀的人才，因为外部的人来了，因为他们想为这个做得非常好的大组织工作，非常棒，但他们进入那里后就会说：“我的职业道路在哪里？

What am I supposed to do?

我该怎么办？

Where am I supposed to go?" A lot of leaders are out there now realizing, "Hey, we do have to get our stuff together," and the only reason they're coming to this conclusion as well is because they're looking around seeing other people doing it and they hear it from the teams, they hear it from the product managers.

我该去哪里？”现在很多领导者都意识到，“嘿，我们确实必须把我们的东西整合在一起”，他们得出这个结论的唯一原因是因为他们环顾四周看到其他人在做这件事，他们从团队、产品经理那里听到了这一点。

I don't want people to think, "Hey, I have no power.

我不想让人们认为，“嘿，我没有权力。

I'm in a 10,000 person organization." The more you bring this up, the more your leaders will respect it because they don't want to lose you, they don't want to lose good people.

我在一个 10,000 人的组织中。”你越多地提出这个问题，你的领导就越会尊重它，因为他们不想失去你，他们不想失去好人。

If you want to be great at your job and you need more support there, speak up, speak up.

如果你想在工作中表现出色并且需要更多支持，请大声说出来。

Melissa Perri: At a certain point, I do tell people this.

Melissa Perri：在某个时候，我确实告诉人们这一点。

If you feel like you can't do great product management in your organization, try to find another organization.

如果您觉得自己无法在自己的组织中进行出色的产品管理，请尝试寻找其他组织。

I know that is hard to say and I respect people are tied to insurances and it's hard to change jobs, but if you do have the opportunity to look for another organization that does it well, I would go there.

我知道这很难说，我尊重人们与保险的联系，很难换工作，但如果你确实有机会寻找另一个做得很好的组织，我会去那里。

I would also say in large corporations too, I've seen certain business lines and certain divisions do it super well and then others not.

我还想说，在大公司中，我也看到某些业务线和某些部门做得非常好，但其他部门则不然。

If you are in a large corporation, maybe think about moving internally, laterally to a different team and seeing if you can work there.

如果你在一家大公司，也许可以考虑在内部调动，横向调动到不同的团队，看看你是否可以在那里工作。

I'd find the leaders who know what they're doing and go work for that.

我会找到那些知道自己在做什么的领导者并为此而努力。

That's usually the best move here.

这通常是这里最好的举动。

Lenny Rachitsky: The point you made about how a lot of companies don't have any product owners and have scaled very wide, just to reinforce that in the data dive that we did on job market trends, no tech company has a product owner basically, no top tech company.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提出的观点是，很多公司没有产品负责人，而且规模非常大，这只是为了强调，在我们对就业市场趋势进行的数据挖掘中，基本上没有一家科技公司有产品负责人，也没有顶级科技公司。

I know there's an important distinction here.

我知道这里有一个重要的区别。

These are tech, software first, product first businesses where their business is the software they're building, and a lot of the companies we're talking about here are not that.

这些是技术、软件第一、产品第一的企业，他们的业务是他们正在构建的软件，而我们在这里谈论的很多公司都不是这样的。

They're banks and telecoms, pharmaceutical companies.

他们是银行、电信、制药公司。

I get that it's a very different world, but I think it's important to highlight, "You can become very big." Google has no product owners as far as I know, Amazon, Microsoft, Netflix, no company you've heard of that's a tech company has a product owner.

我知道这是一个非常不同的世界，但我认为强调“你可以变得非常大”很重要。据我所知，谷歌没有产品负责人，亚马逊、微软、Netflix，以及你听说过的科技公司都没有产品负责人。

They're all product managers, they're all product managers.

他们都是产品经理，他们都是产品经理。

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

I don't want people to think that there aren't people who build great software in these large corporations too because there are.

我不想让人们认为在这些大公司中没有人构建出色的软件，因为确实有。

There's pockets of people who are doing it super, super well.

有很多人做得非常非常好。

If you are one of those people who's been pushing the boundaries, doing great work, and your title is a product owner, what I always tell people on your resume, if you're looking for your next job so that you're not pushed out, let's say, of these large corporations like a Google or somewhere like that, and that's where you want to work in a tech firm, make sure you describe how you did your job from a value perspective.

如果你是那些不断突破界限、工作出色的人，并且你的头衔是产品负责人，我总是在你的简历上告诉人们，如果你正在寻找下一份工作，这样你就不会被像谷歌这样的大公司或类似的地方淘汰，而这就是你想在科技公司工作的地方，请确保你从价值的角度描述你是如何完成工作的。

Do not talk about your agile cadences.

不要谈论你的敏捷节奏。

Get Scrum out of there.

让 Scrum 离开那里。

Talk about what value you brought to the users and what metrics you moved, and that's how your resume should be laid out.

谈论你给用户带来了什么价值以及你移动了哪些指标，这就是你的简历应该如何布局。

Melissa Perri: I do read tons of resumes to hire people, and also chief product officer, same thing.

Melissa Perri：我确实阅读了大量的简历来招聘人员，也阅读了首席产品官，同样的事情。

If I see immediately implemented Scrum processes across the organization, I'm like, "No, that's not what I need.

如果我看到整个组织立即实施了 Scrum 流程，我会想，“不，这不是我需要的。

That's not what I was looking for." I was looking for what are you going to do to push the strategy in that part of the organization?

那不是我要找的。”我在寻找您将采取哪些措施来推动组织该部门的战略？

What are you going to do to actually build better products for customers?

您将如何做才能真正为客户打造更好的产品？

Then when you get into the interview, you can talk about what things you did to do that, but you want to make sure that you're focused on really understanding the customer and translating that into great products, and the outcomes that we were looking for when you do it on your resume, I think that's important.

然后，当你进入面试时，你可以谈论你为此做了哪些事情，但你要确保你专注于真正了解客户并将其转化为出色的产品，以及当你在简历中这样做时我们正在寻找的结果，我认为这很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I want to spend more time here because this is so important.

我想在这里花更多时间，因为这非常重要。

This is highlighting here's the difference between a product owner and a product manager.

这凸显了产品所有者和产品经理之间的区别。

If you want to move into product management and become a great PM, if you're a product owner today, even if you're not a product owner and just want to get into product management, can you again just highlight here's the big difference and here's the skills that people value most in a PM versus a product owner.

如果你想进入产品管理领域并成为一名出色的产品经理，如果你今天是一名产品负责人，即使你不是产品负责人而只是想进入产品管理领域，你能否再次强调一下，这是PM与产品负责人之间的巨大区别，以及人们最看重的技能。

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

When I see product owners write out their resumes or describe their job functions, they always approach it from a process standpoint.

当我看到产品负责人写出他们的简历或描述他们的工作职能时，他们总是从流程的角度来处理它。

I prioritize the backlog, I worked with the developers to break down the work, I checked the developer's work and did the acceptance criteria, I wrote the user stories, all those functions is what I see over and over and over again in product owner resume.

我优先考虑待办事项，与开发人员合作分解工作，检查开发人员的工作并制定验收标准，编写用户故事，所有这些功能都是我在产品负责人简历中一遍又一遍地看到的。

What you want to do instead is say, "I led the," we can even do the login API,"I led the work around the login API.

相反，你想做的是说，“我领导了，”我们甚至可以做登录 API，“我领导了围绕登录 API 的工作。

The problem that I was solving around it was trying to enhance security for our login protocols to meet regulatory requirements.

我围绕它解决的问题是试图增强我们的登录协议的安全性以满足监管要求。

I interviewed a bunch of users, I got up to speed on the regulatory requirements, I worked really closely with our legal teams and our compliance teams to translate that into something that was going to secure our bank, and when we launched, we were able to meet our compliance, save our bank a couple million dollars, and we smoothly transitioned into these new security requirements without disrupting any service for customers for four million customers."

我采访了一群用户，了解了监管要求，我与我们的法律团队和合规团队密切合作，将其转化为保护我们银行安全的东西，当我们推出时，我们能够满足我们的合规性，为我们的银行节省了几百万美元，并且我们顺利地过渡到这些新的安全要求，而没有中断为 400 万客户提供的任何服务。”

Melissa Perri: Way different story than I prioritized backlog and I shipped it off to developers.

Melissa Perri：与我优先考虑待办事项并将其发送给开发人员的情况完全不同。

Take it a step further.

更进一步。

If you're working on customer-facing things, who are your customers?

如果您从事面向客户的工作，那么谁是您的客户？

Did you go out and talk to them?

你出去跟他们说话了吗？

By interfacing with customers and understanding them, I was able to solve XY, and Z problem with them, which resulted in a measurable amount of XY and Z metric going up for the business.

通过与客户交流并了解他们，我能够与他们一起解决 XY 和 Z 问题，从而为业务带来可观的 XY 和 Z 指标提升。

I ran this function, I ran this feature, I launched this feature, I watched it through, I iterated on it, I did the stuff that was needed to make this successful.

我运行了这个功能，我运行了这个功能，我启动了这个功能，我仔细观察了它，我迭代了它，我做了使这个成功所需的事情。

That's what I want to see on a resume.

这就是我想在简历上看到的。

Melissa Perri: Even if you have a product owner title, I'll still read the details and everybody else will too, but I will say there's sometimes a poor connotation when you have that title unfortunately because of the baggage that's associated with agile.

Melissa Perri：即使您拥有产品负责人头衔，我仍然会阅读详细信息，其他人也会阅读详细信息，但我会说，不幸的是，当您拥有该头衔时，有时会产生不好的含义，因为与敏捷相关的包袱。

Even just on resumes, I would say do product owner/product manager in there just to let people know that I know how to do this and I've been doing this well.

即使只是在简历上，我也会说做产品负责人/产品经理只是为了让人们知道我知道如何做到这一点并且我一直做得很好。

If you do that in your bullet points, that shows up as well.

如果您在要点中这样做，那么也会显示出来。

There's also this whole concept that we didn't even get into about certifications.

还有一个关于认证的整个概念我们甚至没有涉及。

People keep asking me if I want to transition into product management, should I get a certification, an agile certification?" I feel like these were bigger a couple years ago, but they're still big.

人们一直问我是否想过渡到产品管理，我应该获得认证，敏捷认证吗？”我觉得这些在几年前更大，但它们仍然很大。

If you ever see somebody with a CSPO on the end of their profile, which you probably have seen on LinkedIn, it's a certified Scrum product owner.

如果您看到某人的个人资料末尾有 CSPO（您可能在 LinkedIn 上看到过），那么他就是经过认证的 Scrum 产品所有者。

Melissa Perri: Now, one thing to remember, and this is about all agile stuff, is we call it the agile industrial complex, agile coaches and agile trainers, the whole Scrum team, scrum.org, Scrum Inc, SAFe, everybody, the way they make their money is through consulting to teach you these processes and by having people be trained to get these certifications.

Melissa Perri：现在，要记住一件事，这是关于所有敏捷的东西，我们称之为敏捷工业综合体、敏捷教练和敏捷培训师、整个 Scrum 团队、scrum.org、Scrum Inc、SAFe，每个人，他们赚钱的方式是通过咨询来教你这些流程，并通过培训人们获得这些认证。

They come in and they say, "All your people need to be certified Scrum product owners.

他们进来后说：“你们所有的员工都需要获得 Scrum 产品负责人认证。

Give me 2,500 bucks per person," and then they get a certificate at the end of a two-day class that says they're a certified Scrum product owner.

给我每人 2,500 美元”，然后他们在为期两天的课程结束时获得一份证书，表明他们是经过认证的 Scrum 产品所有者。

It doesn't necessarily mean they could do the job, it doesn't necessarily mean they could do product management, but let's think about when we're talking about too should we adopt SAFe in general, should we adopt these things, think about how these organizations make money.

这并不一定意味着他们可以完成这项工作，也不一定意味着他们可以进行产品管理，但是让我们想想，当我们谈论我们是否应该普遍采用 SAFe 时，我们是否应该采用这些东西，想想这些组织如何赚钱。

Melissa Perri: They're selling certifications.

Melissa Perri：他们正在出售认证。

Of course they want more and more people to adopt it.

当然，他们希望越来越多的人采用它。

That's the idea here.

这就是这里的想法。

They're selling you this dream that you just certify all your people and then you could be working on it.

他们向你兜售这样的梦想：你只需对所有员工进行认证，然后就可以为之努力。

They take all these people, they put them in two-day classes or whatever, and they turn them out and then they say, "Go, you're a completely new role." It doesn't work that way.

他们把所有这些人都安排在为期两天的课程或其他什么课程中，然后将他们淘汰，然后他们说，“走吧，你是一个全新的角色。”事实并非如此。

That's not in the best interest of your company, that's not really what we're looking for here, and that's why all of this stuff needs to go deeper.

这不符合您公司的最佳利益，也不是我们真正想要的，这就是为什么所有这些东西都需要更深入。

If you've done a CSPO class and you have that certification, it may help you get hired at another large enterprise that is adopting Scrum and SAFe.

如果您已经完成了 CSPO 课程并且获得了该认证，它可能会帮助您被另一家采用 Scrum 和 SAFe 的大型企业聘用。

That will probably help you there.

这可能会对你有所帮助。

Melissa Perri: If you want to transition into tech and go into the companies that we talk about, they're probably going to look at that and say, "This person doesn't know what they're doing.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：如果你想转型到科技领域并进入我们谈论的公司，他们可能会看到并说：“这个人不知道他们在做什么。

This is not here." If you do know what you're doing and you did that for a reason, because some people need that to get promoted, some companies actually require it, which is crazy, but to get promoted or be that thing, I have tremendous sympathy for that, but you're going to have to do a lot of work explaining in your resumes and stuff as you transition that you know more than that.

这不在这里。”如果你确实知道自己在做什么，并且你这样做是有原因的，因为有些人需要这样做才能升职，有些公司实际上需要它，这很疯狂，但是要升职或成为那样的人，我对此非常同情，但你将必须在简历和过渡期间做很多工作来解释你知道的不仅仅是这些。

You're not just a CSPO with a two-day class, you have done the work.

您不仅仅是一名参加了两天课程的 CSPO，您已经完成了工作。

That's where all of this building up on your resume becomes really, really important.

这就是你简历上的所有内容变得非常非常重要的地方。

It's not just about getting certified.

这不仅仅是获得认证的问题。

Melissa Perri: I had people ask me, they're like, "Can you just certify product managers?" I'm like, "No. If people take my course, I give them a certificate of completion and as a completion." You finished a course just like any other course, but I will not certify product managers because I do not think you can ever say somebody is prepared and able to do their job from a short class.

Melissa Perri：有人问我，他们会说，“你能认证产品经理吗？”我想，“不。如果人们参加我的课程，我会给他们一份结业证书，作为结业。”你像任何其他课程一样完成了一门课程，但我不会认证产品经理，因为我认为你永远不能说有人已经准备好并能够通过短期课程完成他们的工作。

Now, there are some agile agencies that do a lot more training where you have different levels, and what they would do is they would train people, but then they would make them go do work and they had a coach that they worked with, and they go back and forth and they could demonstrate that they could do the work over time to get to the next level.

现在，有一些敏捷机构会做更多的培训，有不同的级别，他们会做的是培训人员，然后他们会让他们去做工作，他们有一个与他们合作的教练，他们来来回回，他们可以证明他们可以随着时间的推移完成工作以达到下一个级别。

Melissa Perri: It's almost like the PMP, the project management certification where you have to have time actually doing the job.

Melissa Perri：这几乎就像 PMP，项目管理认证，你必须有时间实际完成工作。

That's different, that's a different type of skill, it's a different type of certification, but if you see any CSPOs, it's typically a two-day workshop that they went to and then got certified.

这是不同的，这是一种不同类型的技能，这是一种不同类型的认证，但如果你看到任何 CSPO，他们通常会参加为期两天的研讨会，然后获得认证。

That's the difference with this.

这就是和这个的区别。

I would say be careful if you are a product owner wanting to be a product manager of just certifications.

我想说，如果您是产品负责人，只想成为认证的产品经理，请务必小心。

All the large tech organizations I know too, they're not looking for certifications in product management or product ownership to hire people, they're looking for experience, but the organizations that might not know what they're doing, they are looking for CSPOs, they are looking for that.

我也认识的所有大型科技组织，他们并不是在寻找产品管理或产品所有权方面的认证来雇用人员，而是在寻找经验，但那些可能不知道自己在做什么的组织，他们正在寻找 CSPO，他们正在寻找经验。

Melissa Perri: If it's required by your organization, you might have to ask, "Are we all well set up here to do our best job?

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：如果您的组织有要求，您可能不得不问：“我们都已经做好了充分准备来做好我们的工作吗？

Is this the place where I'm going to learn how to be a better product manager?" I also feel bad though for people because it's hard to be a product manager, it's hard to get your foot in the door.

这是我要学习如何成为一名更好的产品经理的地方吗？”但我也为人们感到难过，因为成为一名产品经理很难，很难踏入这扇门。

I'm so torn on it because there are organizations that hire people with a CSPO and they require it, so of course if it gets your foot in the door and it helps you do it, but if it's not going to help you and it's not going to put you on the career path you want, I don't think it's worth money.

我对此感到非常困惑，因为有些组织雇用具有 CSPO 的人员，并且他们需要它，所以当然，如果它让你踏入大门并且它可以帮助你做到这一点，但如果它不会帮助你并且不会让你走上你想要的职业道路，我认为它不值钱。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think one interesting thread throughout this whole conversation is rarely is a plug-in play-ish easy solution going to be the answer to your problem, whether it's plugging in SAFe and it's going to help us build great software, taking a class helping you become a great product manager, be skeptical of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为贯穿整个对话的一个有趣的主题很少是一个插件式的简单解决方案将成为您问题的答案，无论它是插入 SAFe 还是它将帮助我们构建出色的软件，参加一门帮助您成为出色的产品经理的课程，对此持怀疑态度。

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

There's no quick way to doing any of this, there's no fast track.

没有快速的方法可以做到这一切，也没有捷径。

You don't get to skip over all the hard things.

你不能跳过所有困难的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

One question I wanted to clarify.

我想澄清一个问题。

When you come into an org and they have product owners, do you encourage them to get rid of product owner as a title and role and make them product managers or do you keep product owners?

当你进入一个组织并且他们有产品负责人时，你是否鼓励他们摆脱产品负责人的头衔和角色，让他们成为产品经理，还是保留产品负责人？

Melissa Perri: I say that we should have a hierarchy.

Melissa Perri：我说我们应该有一个等级制度。

You would have all product managers on a team, they would be an IC, individual contributor, so they're either an associate product manager and that's if they don't have all the discovery experience or maybe they know basic Scrum, totally fine, you can be an associate product manager, but if they don't know how to talk to customers, digest what the customers are saying and turn that into a feature direction and a backlog and this is how we're going to work, all that stuff needs to be in there.

你会将所有产品经理放在一个团队中，他们将是 IC，个人贡献者，所以他们要么是副产品经理，如果他们没有所有的发现经验，或者也许他们了解基本的 Scrum，完全没问题，你可以成为副产品经理，但如果他们不知道如何与客户交谈，消化客户所说的并将其转化为功能方向和待办事项，这就是我们将要工作的方式，所有这些东西都需要在那里。

If they don't know how they should be measuring things, you're not quite a product manager yet.

如果他们不知道应该如何衡量事物，那么你还不是一个真正的产品经理。

Melissa Perri: Associate product manager, and then product manager, and then a senior PM.

Melissa Perri：副产品经理，然后是产品经理，然后是高级产品经理。

A senior PM can work on a Scrum team as well or a development team.

高级 PM 也可以在 Scrum 团队或开发团队中工作。

I do encourage them, I say, "Get rid of these two different titles because it's confusing everybody." I help a lot of people with career paths too.

我确实鼓励他们，我说，“摆脱这两个不同的标题，因为它让每个人都感到困惑。”我也在职业道路上帮助了很多人。

I've seen companies with 47 different titles for product managers because somebody in this organization is called a product associate and somebody over here is a product manager and that person is a platform product manager, and that person is a platform product owner, and this person is an API product owner.

我见过有 47 个不同的产品经理头衔的公司，因为这个组织中的某个人被称为产品助理，而这里的某个人是产品经理，那个人是平台产品经理，那个人是平台产品所有者，这个人是 API 产品所有者。

You can have product manager, senior product manager, all that stuff, but I would not confuse people with the two different titles of product owner versus product manager.

你可以有产品经理、高级产品经理等等，但我不会让人们混淆产品负责人和产品经理这两个不同的头衔。

Lenny Rachitsky: But importantly, there's a bar for who is called a product manager because if you take a product owner as you've said, and say you're a product manager, they're going to be a terrible product manager.

Lenny Rachitsky：但重要的是，对于谁被称为产品经理是有一个限制的，因为如果你像你所说的那样接受产品负责人，并说你是产品经理，他们将是一个糟糕的产品经理。

Your advice is make them an associate PM, and then once they reach a certain level, they've graduated to product manager.

你的建议是让他们成为副产品经理，然后一旦他们达到一定的级别，他们就会晋升为产品经理。

Melissa Perri: It depends.

梅丽莎·佩里：这要看情况。

I don't say this as a hard and fast rule because there are product owners out there who've been doing their job very well.

我并不是说这是一条硬性规定，因为有些产品负责人一直做得很好。

Just because they have a title of a product owner doesn't mean that somebody can't do the job of a product manager.

仅仅因为他们拥有产品负责人的头衔并不意味着有人不能胜任产品经理的工作。

There are plenty of people out there who were just named this because a company names them that and they know what they're doing, so don't look at that hard and fast.

有很多人只是因为一家公司给他们起这个名字而被命名为这个名字，而且他们知道自己在做什么，所以不要急于求成。

When we do this, we typically will say everybody's got product owner on their title, change it to product manager, but we will go back and look at what is the actual skillset.

当我们这样做时，我们通常会说每个人的头衔都是产品负责人，将其更改为产品经理，但我们会回过头来看看实际的技能是什么。

Melissa Perri: When I've come in to work with companies on transformations, what we typically do, the way I get introduced usually is we come in and they're looking for some kind of training for all of their product teams, and then we bring in Product Institute and we do our online training, Then afterwards I work with the organization, I say, "Now that everybody's been baselined and trained, we have to figure out who is going to be a great product manager and who's not," so there's an awareness.

Melissa Perri：当我与公司合作进行转型时，我们通常会做的事情，我被介绍的方式通常是我们进来，他们正在为所有产品团队寻找某种培训，然后我们引入产品学院并进行在线培训，然后我与该组织合作，我说，“现在每个人都已经完成了基线和培训，我们必须弄清楚谁将成为一名出色的产品经理，谁不会，”所以有一种意识。

You know what's interesting?

你知道什么是有趣的吗？

Once people figure out what the job's about, a lot of them opt out.

一旦人们弄清楚这份工作的内容，很多人就会选择退出。

Melissa Perri: When I did the transformation at Athenahealth, we had 365 product managers and they all had different titles too, product innovation, all over the place.

Melissa Perri：当我在 Athenahealth 进行转型时，我们有 365 名产品经理，他们也都有不同的头衔，产品创新，到处都是。

We turned them into product managers, we trained everybody, we gave everybody the opportunity to learn, which I think is great, and then we gave them opportunity to practice their skills.

我们把他们变成了产品经理，我们培训了每个人，我们给了每个人学习的机会，我认为这很棒，然后我们给了他们练习技能的机会。

What happened is at the end of the training, a lot of people raised their hand and said, "Oh, no, no, this is not what I wanted to do.

事情是在训练结束时，很多人举手说：“哦，不，不，这不是我想做的。

I thought it was very different.

我认为这是非常不同的。

I did not realize how much people work it was.

我没有意识到有多少人工作。

I have to go influence these people, I have to do all this stuff.

我必须去影响这些人，我必须做所有这些事情。

This is actually not really what I wanted to do."

这实际上并不是我真正想做的。”

Melissa Perri: We found other roles for them that were what they wanted to do or they decided to leave.

Melissa Perri：我们为他们找到了他们想做的其他角色，或者他们决定离开。

That was up to them, we didn't cut anybody, but we moved some people into operations because they wanted to be a little more heads down to find process.

这取决于他们，我们没有裁减任何人，但我们把一些人调到运营部门，因为他们想更加埋头寻找流程。

That was their thing.

那是他们的事。

We moved people into data roles who were good with SQL and were good with data analysis.

我们将擅长 SQL 和数据分析的人员调入数据角色。

We moved people into user research roles because they wanted to talk to customers, but they didn't want the responsibility and the accountability that came with the product management piece because they realized it was so intense.

我们将人们调入用户研究角色，因为他们想与客户交谈，但他们不想要产品管理部分带来的责任和问责，因为他们意识到它是如此紧张。

Melissa Perri: I've seen this happen a lot in large organizations.

Melissa Perri：我在大型组织中经常看到这种情况发生。

You baseline everybody, you show them what the role is and then you let them go practice it, and then at that point some people will opt out and then you have to go back through your people and say, "Okay.

你给每个人设定基线，向他们展示角色是什么，然后让他们去练习，然后有些人会选择退出，然后你必须回顾你的员工并说：“好吧。

How do we level-set now?

现在我们如何设定水平？

Who's doing really well?

谁做得真的很好？

Who's not doing so well?

谁做得不好？

Which teams need to have more experienced people on it because they don't have anybody to learn from?" That's where we would say, "Hey, let's hire some ICs over here or a director of product management who can help train these people and help them keep growing." That's been super successful.

哪些团队需要更多有经验的人，因为他们没有人可以学习？”这就是我们会说的，“嘿，让我们在这里雇用一些 IC 或产品管理总监，他们可以帮助培训这些人并帮助他们不断成长。”这真是超级成功。

I've seen people bring in some more directors, scattered them around, and they've leveled up these product owners who were not necessarily doing great product management and now they're doing fantastic.

我看到人们引入了更多的主管，将他们分散到各处，他们提升了这些产品负责人的水平，这些产品负责人不一定能进行出色的产品管理，但现在他们做得非常出色。

Melissa Perri: I've watched fantastic leaders in these organizations that are not software native or doing these transformations.

Melissa Perri：我见过这些组织中出色的领导者，他们不是软件原生的，也不是在进行这些转型。

Bringing the right person, you can make amazing product managers.

引进合适的人，你可以成为出色的产品经理。

Give them a year or two and completely turn it around.

给他们一两年的时间，彻底扭转局面。

It's totally possible.

这是完全有可能的。

It's totally possible to take people and train them, and I firmly believe in that, but you got to get them exposure to what good looks like.

完全有可能带人来培训他们，我坚信这一点，但你必须让他们接触到美好的事物。

If you are in an organization and you cannot see what good looks like anywhere, that's a red flag.

如果你在一个组织中，但你看不到任何地方的优点，那就是一个危险信号。

That's where leaders need to look at their organization and say, "Do I have people with these skills interspersed around so that everybody can start to learn, so that everybody can actually be on the uptake of this and make sure that we are well-balanced?"

这就是领导者需要审视他们的组织并说：“我周围是否有具备这些技能的人，以便每个人都可以开始学习，以便每个人都能真正接受这一点并确保我们保持良好的平衡？”

Lenny Rachitsky: That was an awesome nuance and addition.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的细微差别和补充。

I'm just looking back at all the things we've talked about.

我只是回顾一下我们谈论过的所有事情。

We've covered so much ground, the history of agile and Scrum and SAFes and product owners, we've gotten into all kinds of advice on how to do this better as a company leader, as a product owner, as someone thinking about even moving through product management.

我们已经涵盖了很多基础知识、敏捷、Scrum、SAF 和产品负责人的历史，我们还获得了各种关于如何作为公司领导者、产品负责人、甚至考虑进入产品管理的人如何更好地做到这一点的建议。

Is there anything else that we have not covered that you think might be helpful to touch on or wrap up on?

还有哪些我们没有涉及但您认为可能有帮助的内容？

Melissa Perri: I think I would tell people to remember that when you look at agile methodologies, and if you look at it with small agile, what we are really saying there is we want to be able to move quickly and deliver great value to customers.

Melissa Perri：我想我会告诉人们记住，当你看待敏捷方法时，如果你用小型敏捷来看待它，我们真正想说的是，我们希望能够快速行动并为客户提供巨大的价值。

If you embrace those principles, you're going to do well, but if you think of agile as just a defined super cut and dry process where you have to follow every single little step here and there, that's not going to serve you because you're not getting back into why are we doing this.

如果你接受这些原则，你就会做得很好，但如果你认为敏捷只是一个定义好的超级切割和干燥过程，你必须在这里或那里遵循每一个小步骤，那对你没有帮助，因为你不会回到我们为什么这样做。

Melissa Perri: There are some great agile coaches out there.

Melissa Perri：有一些很棒的敏捷教练。

There are first principle approaches to doing great product work and doing great development work.

完成出色的产品工作和出色的开发工作有首要的原则方法。

They're there because they are not just selling Scrum, they are there to make people better.

他们的存在是因为他们不仅仅是在推销 Scrum，他们的存在是为了让人们变得更好。

Those agile coaches I think can make great fantastic teams, and I've worked with a lot of them, and I think they are really there to just make it a better environment for the people who are working and to help the company produce better products.

我认为那些敏捷教练可以组建出色的团队，我和他们中的很多人一起工作过，我认为他们真的只是为了为工作人员创造更好的环境，并帮助公司生产更好的产品。

That's their whole goal.

这就是他们的全部目标。

Melissa Perri: Then there are people too who are wedded to this is SAFe and you will do it by the book.

Melissa Perri：那么也有人热衷于 SAFe，你将按照书本去做。

This is Scrum, you will do it by the book.

这就是 Scrum，你将按照书本去做。

I'd be very skeptical of that because what's the end goal?

我对此非常怀疑，因为最终目标是什么？

What's their end goal?

他们的最终目标是什么？

Like I said, a lot of people out there get paid by certifying people and by consulting on these processes.

就像我说的，很多人通过对人员进行认证和对这些流程进行咨询来获得报酬。

McKinsey made a huge division to do this, and a lot of SAFe was actually introduced to organizations from McKinsey and from large organizations, consulting organizations like that.

麦肯锡设立了一个庞大的部门来做到这一点，实际上，麦肯锡和大型组织、咨询组织等组织都引入了许多 SAFe。

They came in and they said, "Yeah, this is what you do.

他们进来后说：“是的，这就是你所做的。

I'll teach you how to do SAFe, I'll teach you how to do Scrum." They have been building those consulting agencies off of agile transformations.

我会教你如何做 SAFe，我会教你如何做 Scrum。”他们一直在通过敏捷转型来建立这些咨询机构。

Melissa Perri: We always laugh when I talk to other people who've been doing transformations and coaches.

梅丽莎·佩里（Melissa Perri）：当我与其他一直在进行转型和指导的人交谈时，我们总是笑。

I go, "Why is McKinsey always coming in here and doing this?" I've followed them into so many organizations and I've been like, "Oh, wow, they screwed this up.

我问：“为什么麦肯锡总是来这里做这件事？”我跟随他们进入了很多组织，我一直想，“哦，哇，他们搞砸了。

Let me go fix it." There's always a saying that nobody gets fired for hiring McKinsey.

让我去修理一下吧。”总有一句话说，没有人会因为雇用麦肯锡而被解雇。

McKinsey's big, people trust their name.

麦肯锡很大，人们信任他们的名字。

A lot of the people at McKinsey haven't done this before, they've never been inside the organization trying to transform it and stay there for a long time.

麦肯锡的很多人以前没有这样做过，他们从来没有在组织内部尝试改变它并长期留在那里。

That's why I'd be really skeptical of who's selling that.

这就是为什么我真的怀疑谁在卖这个。

Melissa Perri: If you approach agile from a perspective of I want to be agile because I want to release things quickly and get feedback from customers and make sure that that's great, look at all of your processes like that and say, "Is that serving the best interest of our company and our culture and our customers?

Melissa Perri：如果你从这样的角度看待敏捷，我想要变得敏捷，因为我想快速发布东西并从客户那里获得反馈并确保这很好，那么看看你的所有流程，然后说：“这是否符合我们公司、我们的文化和客户的最大利益？

Is this making our customers proud of us?

这是否让我们的客户为我们感到自豪？

Is this helping our customers receive good value?" If your processes aren't, fix them, change them, inspect and adapt, ease a lowercase agile principle.

这是否有助于我们的客户获得良好的价值？”如果您的流程不是这样，请修复它们、更改它们、检查和调整、简化小写敏捷原则。

We should be looking at every process we do and saying, "Is it working?", and not be afraid to change it.

我们应该审视我们所做的每一个流程并问自己：“它有效吗？”，并且不要害怕改变它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's important to highlight this can work.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为强调这一点很重要。

There are ways to reorganize the way you build product at a very large company where you can actually deliver great product consistently.

有一些方法可以重新组织您在一家非常大的公司中构建产品的方式，这样您实际上可以始终如一地交付出色的产品。

You've seen that happen a lot.

你已经见过很多这样的事情发生了。

Anything you want to add there to give people hope?

您想添加什么内容来给人们带来希望吗？

Melissa Perri: Yeah.

梅丽莎·佩里：是的。

The biggest pushback I hear from large organizations, especially ones that are not software native as banks or insurance companies, whatever it is, is that we're not like Google, we're not like SaaS companies.

我从大型组织（尤其是那些不是银行或保险公司等原生软件的组织）那里听到的最大的反对意见是，我们不像 Google，我们不像 SaaS 公司。

It's true, you're not a SaaS company.

确实，你们不是一家 SaaS 公司。

The way that you do it is going to be slightly different than the way that Amazon runs or the way that Google runs.

你的运作方式将与亚马逊或谷歌的运作方式略有不同。

I don't see many companies actually run the same, and just because it works at Google doesn't mean it's going to work at an insurance company that's a hundred years old.

我没有看到很多公司实际上都在运行相同的东西，仅仅因为它在谷歌有效并不意味着它会在一家有一百年历史的保险公司工作。

That's okay, but you could still learn from people who've been producing software at scale for many, many years.

没关系，但您仍然可以向多年来一直大规模生产软件的人们学习。

You can still learn what makes them successful, and then you could take some of those principles and apply them to your organization and then figure out where we need to adapt.

您仍然可以了解是什么让他们成功，然后您可以采用其中一些原则并将其应用到您的组织中，然后找出我们需要适应的地方。

That's what I would look at.

这就是我想看的。

Melissa Perri: I see software strategies and digital strategies becoming so intertwined into the strategies of companies in general, whether you're an insurance company or a bank or anything.

Melissa Perri：我认为软件战略和数字战略与一般公司的战略紧密相连，无论您是保险公司还是银行还是其他公司。

They're becoming so heavily entwined in the C-suite strategies.

他们与最高管理层的战略紧密相连。

The first thing I would say, and where I see a lot of companies struggle with this is you have to make sure that it is thought of at the C-suite.

我要说的第一件事是，我看到很多公司都在为此苦苦挣扎，你必须确保最高管理层考虑到这一点。

What some organizations do is go, "Oh, no, that's IT work.

有些组织会说：“哦，不，那是 IT 工作。

Let me push all the software strategy down." If you're doing that, you're missing out on innovation, and this is where the product role comes in and where I think more organizations need chief product officers because they're the person in the C-suite saying, "How can software enable us to be 10 times better and crush our competition, whether we're a bank or insurance company or a pharmaceutical company?

让我把所有的软件策略都推下来。”如果你这样做，你就错过了创新，这就是产品角色发挥作用的地方，我认为更多的组织需要首席产品官，因为他们是最高管理层中的人，他们说：“软件如何使我们变得更好 10 倍并粉碎我们的竞争对手，无论我们是银行、保险公司还是制药公司？

What can we do with our software that's going to put us ahead of the competition, that's going to put us ahead of the market?"

我们可以用我们的软件做什么来让我们在竞争中领先，让我们领先于市场？”

Melissa Perri: If you're not having those conversations when you're thinking of your long-term company strategy, you're behind, you're behind because that is what every small high-growth startup is doing that's coming out to try to disrupt these big companies.

梅丽莎·佩里：如果你在考虑公司的长期战略时没有进行这些对话，那么你就落后了，你落后了，因为这就是每个小型高增长初创公司正在做的事情，他们试​​图颠覆这些大公司。

The big companies are successful, they have a lot of money so they don't have as much urgency as sometimes these smaller companies do to change or somebody who's failing to change.

大公司是成功的，他们有很多钱，所以他们不像有时这些小公司或那些未能改变的人那样紧迫。

That's why things are going so slow, but at the same time, if we don't pay attention to that and we're not considering it, that's where the danger comes in.

这就是为什么事情进展如此缓慢，但与此同时，如果我们不注意这一点，不考虑它，那就是危险所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine people are going to have a lot of questions and hope to get even more advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想人们会有很多问题并希望得到更多建议。

A couple of final questions.

最后几个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to ask more questions along these lines, maybe get your help on some of this stuff?

如果人们想问更多类似的问题，或者在某些方面可以得到你的帮助，他们可以在哪里找到你？

Then finally, how can listeners be useful to you, Melissa.

最后，梅丽莎，听众如何对你有用。

Melissa Perri: You can find me on LinkedIn.

Melissa Perri：您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

If you go search for Melissa Perri with an I, P-E-R-R-I, you'll find me there.

如果你用 I，P-E-R-R-I 搜索 Melissa Perri，你会在那里找到我。

My LinkedIn is /melissajeanPerri.

我的 LinkedIn 是 /melissajeanPerri。

I'm happy to connect with people there.

我很高兴与那里的人们建立联系。

My school is called Product Institute, so if you're interested in doing product management training or getting help with some of this stuff, go to productinstitute.com and reach out to me.

我的学校名为 Product Institute，因此，如果您有兴趣进行产品管理培训或获得有关此类内容的帮助，请访问 ProductInstitute.com 并与我联系。

I run a podcast too called The Product Thinking Podcast.

我也经营一个播客，名为“产品思考播客”。

We answer questions every week, and a lot of them are around SAFe, agile and all these topics, so if you have a question and you're saying, "Hey, how do I do this?", definitely reach out and let me know.

我们每周都会回答问题，其中很多都围绕 SAFe、敏捷和所有这些主题，因此，如果您有疑问并且说“嘿，我该怎么做？”，请务必联系我并告诉我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Melissa, I learned a lot.

梅丽莎，我学到了很多东西。

I feel like a lot of people who listen to this podcast, they're like, "I had no idea about any of this, and now I understand all these terms that I kind of hear occasionally." Thank you for coming and sharing all of this with us, especially the advice for folks that are in this world right now.

我觉得很多听这个播客的人都会说，“我对这些一无所知，但现在我理解了我偶尔听到的所有这些术语。”感谢您来到这里并与我们分享所有这些，尤其是对现在这个世界上的人们的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。