She turned 100+ rejections into a $42B company | Melanie Perkins

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a very famous story about Canva.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一个关于 Canva 的非常著名的故事。

Early on, you pitched over a hundred investors and over a hundred investors said no to you.

早期，你向一百多名投资者推销，一百多名投资者拒绝了你。

Melanie Perkins: It was really clear in my mind that it was the future and I thought the investors were wrong, frankly.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我心里很清楚，这就是未来，坦率地说，我认为投资者错了。

But investors also gave really helpful feedback and feedback.

但投资者也给出了非常有帮助的反馈和反馈。

Often in the form of rejection, they would say, "Oh, your market's not big enough," and I would say, "It's going to be huge." And I'd add a new page in my pitch deck that said how big the market I believe was, and then they'd say, "You're the same as some of other company." And I would say, "Hey, now I've got a new slide in my pitch deck that shows all the players and the huge gap in the market that we believe we're going to fill."

通常以拒绝的形式，他们会说，“哦，你们的市场不够大”，我会说，“它会很大。”我会在我的宣传材料中添加一个新页面，说明我认为的市场有多大，然后他们会说，“你和其他一些公司一样。”我会说，“嘿，现在我的宣传材料中有一张新幻灯片，其中显示了所有参与者以及我们相信我们将填补的市场巨大空白。”

Lenny Rachitsky: One of your values, Crazy Big Goals.

Lenny Rachitsky：你的价值观之一，疯狂的大目标。

I love that as a value.

我喜欢它作为一种价值观。

Melanie Perkins: The thing that I love about a crazy big goal is that you feel completely inadequate before it.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我喜欢疯狂的大目标的一点是，在它面前你会感觉自己完全不够格。

You want to work really hard to will it into existence.

你想要非常努力地工作，让它成为现实。

I really like to start by just imagining what is the future that you actually want Right now?

我真的很喜欢从想象一下你现在真正想要的未来是什么？

I have a wall in my house in my office, which is my vision for what I'd like the world to look like in 2050.

我的房子和办公室里有一堵墙，这是我对 2050 年世界的愿景。

Lenny Rachitsky: I heard from one of your team members, Melissa Tan, there's a deck like this for every project you kick off.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从你的一位团队成员 Melissa Tan 那里听说，你启动的每个项目都有一个这样的平台。

There's this big vision deck.

有这个大愿景甲板。

Melanie Perkins: So we have this concept of chaos to clarity.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：所以我们有了从混乱到清晰的概念。

Every idea starts in the chaos side, and then you have to work all the way to the other side, which is clarity.

每个想法都是从混乱的一面开始的，然后你必须一直努力到另一面，即清晰的一面。

That very first step at the far end of chaos was quite an embarrassing step actually, because you don't have mastery at that point.

实际上，在混乱的尽头迈出的第一步是相当尴尬的一步，因为那时你还没有掌握。

You don't have all the answers.

你没有所有的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people think of Canva as like design graphics for social media and marketing and things like that, but you also have spreadsheets, whiteboards, charts, AI coding tool.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人认为 Canva 类似于社交媒体和营销等的设计图形，但你也有电子表格、白板、图表、人工智能编码工具。

Melanie Perkins: Was funny, looking back from really old decks.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：很有趣，从非常旧的甲板上回顾过去。

We were trying to do AI before AI was actually a thing.

在人工智能真正成为现实之前，我们就尝试做人工智能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Melanie Perkins, CEO and co-founder of Canva.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是 Canva 首席执行官兼联合创始人 Melanie Perkins。

Melanie is on track to be the most successful female tech founder in history and one of the most successful founders, period.

梅兰妮有望成为历史上最成功的女性科技创始人，也是最成功的创始人之一。

Canva is currently valued at over $42 billion, making over $3.3 billion in revenue a year.

Canva 目前估值超过 420 亿美元，年收入超过 33 亿美元。

They've been profitable for eight years straight and are one of the hottest private tech companies in the world right now.

他们已经连续八年盈利，是目前世界上最热门的私营科技公司之一。

But it wasn't always this way.

但情况并非总是如此。

Melanie was rejected by over 100 investors when she was trying to raise her first round.

当 Melanie 试图筹集第一轮资金时，遭到了 100 多名投资者的拒绝。

Their team spent two years rewriting their entire code base and were unable to ship any new features for over two years, something they expected to just take six months, and they even went through a big pivot early on from a yearbook publishing platform to the Canva that you know today, Melanie does not do a lot of podcasts.

他们的团队花了两年的时间重写了整个代码库，并且在两年多的时间里无法发布任何新功能，他们预计只需要六个月的时间，他们甚至在早期经历了从年鉴出版平台到 Canva 的重大转变，你知道今天，Melanie 并没有做很多播客。

She shares stories that I've never heard before and lessons that I'm still thinking about.

她分享了我以前从未听过的故事以及我仍在思考的教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a really rare opportunity to learn from a legendary founder.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个向传奇创始人学习的非常难得的机会。

A huge thank you to Cameron Adams and Melissa Tan for suggesting topics for this conversation.

非常感谢卡梅伦·亚当斯 (Cameron Adams) 和梅丽莎·谭 (Melissa Tan) 为本次对话提出的主题。

Enjoy this podcast.

享受这个播客。

Don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注它。

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 17 incredible products, including Devon, Lovable, Replit, Bolt, Encodia and Linear, Superhuman, DescriptUs, Flowgama, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, MagicPattern, DarkCast, ChatGPT and Mobbin.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 17 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Devon、Lovable、Replit、Bolt、Encodia 和 Linear、Super human、DescriptUs、Flowgama、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、MagicPattern、DarkCast、ChatGPT 和 Mobbin。

Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.

前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。

With that, I bring you Melanie Perkins after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了梅兰妮·帕金斯。

My podcast guest, and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.

我的播客嘉宾和我喜欢谈论工艺和品味以及代理和产品市场契合度。

You know what we don't love talking about?

你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？

SOC 2.

SOC 2。

That's where Vanta comes in.

这就是万塔登场的地方。

Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI, automation and continuous monitoring.

Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能、自动化和持续监控帮助各种规模的公司快速实现合规并保持这种状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.

Lenny Rachitsky：无论您是处理第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以让您更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。

Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.

Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。

The result.

结果。

According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.

根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省超过 500,000 美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。

Establishing trust isn't optional.

建立信任不是可选的。

Vanta makes it automatic.

Vanta 使其自动化。

Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Last year, 1.3% of global GDP flow through Stripe.

Lenny Rachitsky：去年，全球 GDP 的 1.3% 流经了 Stripe。

That's over $1.4 trillion.

这超过 1.4 万亿美元。

Stripe helps ambitious founders start companies and scale them from pre-seed to IPO and beyond.

Stripe 帮助雄心勃勃的创始人创办公司，并将其从种子期前扩大到 IPO 等。

Used by 78% of the Forbes AI-50 Stripe provides financial infrastructure for payments, billing and software to platforms and marketplaces so they can monetize faster, experiment with pricing and grow revenue.

78% 的福布斯 AI-50 受访者使用 Stripe，为平台和市场提供支付、计费和软件的金融基础设施，以便他们能够更快地实现盈利、尝试定价并增加收入。

With Stripe, businesses achieve massive global scale faster than they would otherwise.

借助 Stripe，企业可以比其他方式更快地实现大规模的全球规模。

And at the beginning of that journey is where Stripe Startups comes in.

在这段旅程的开始，Stripe Startups 就介入了。

Stripe Startups is a program designed to support early-stage venture-backed businesses as they build, iterate and scale.

Stripe Startups 是一项旨在支持早期风险投资企业的建设、迭代和扩展的计划。

Founders enrolled in Stripe Startups get access to credits to offset Stripe fees, expert insights, and a focused community of other founders building on Stripe.

加入 Stripe Startups 的创始人可以获得抵消 Stripe 费用的积分、专家见解以及基于 Stripe 的其他创始人的专注社区。

You can learn more and apply for the program today at stripe.com/startups.

您可以立即访问 stripe.com/startups 了解更多信息并申请该计划。

Lenny Rachitsky: Melanie, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Melanie，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Melanie Perkins: Thank you so much for having me.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：非常感谢您邀请我。

I'm excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more excited.

Lenny Rachitsky：我更兴奋。

It's such an honor to have you here.

很荣幸您能来到这里。

I am such a fan of yours.

我是你的粉丝。

I'm such a fan of the company that you've built.

我非常喜欢你创建的公司。

Also just everyone I meet from Canva is just so nice and so awesome and so smart, and so clearly you've built something really special.

另外，我在 Canva 遇到的每个人都非常友善，非常出色，非常聪明，很明显，您已经构建了一些非常特别的东西。

I'm really excited to use this hour to learn as much as I can from you about how you did that.

我真的很高兴能够利用这一个小时向您尽可能多地了解您是如何做到这一点的。

We were actually chatting ahead of this about what would make the best use of this hour.

实际上，我们在此之前就已经讨论过如何充分利用这一小时。

I asked you what you believe has been the biggest factor in the success of Canva.

我问您认为 Canva 成功的最大因素是什么。

You described something called building a Column B company and Column B thinking, I've never heard of this before, so let us start there.

你描述了一种叫做建立B列公司和B列思维的东西，我以前从未听说过这个，所以让我们从这里开始。

What is building Column B company, what does that mean?

建设Column B公司是什么意思？

Melanie Perkins: Really great place to start.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：真是一个很好的起点。

So I guess there's two ways of planning.

所以我想有两种规划方法。

The way that you can plan is you can dream of what is the perfect vision of the future, what future do you want to exist in, what would you like the world to look like?

你可以计划的方式就是你可以梦想未来的完美愿景是什么，你想要存在于什么样的未来，你希望世界是什么样子？

What would you like companies to look like?

您希望公司是什么样子？

And then going from there, which is completely improbable, a completely crazy big dream, and then working hard to turn that into reality.

然后从那里开始，这是完全不可能的，一个完全疯狂的大梦想，然后努力将其变成现实。

And the alternate is, so just imagine you are building a castle on the hill and you're like, "What would be the most magical, wonderful, mythical experience?" And the other thing you can do is you can look at the bricks around you and you can say, "What can I do with these bricks?

另一种情况是，想象一下你正在山上建造一座城堡，你会想，“最神奇、最美妙、最神秘的体验是什么？”你可以做的另一件事是你可以看看你周围的砖块，你可以说：“我能用这些砖块做什么？

How high can I stack them?

我可以将它们堆放多高？

What can I do?" And I think most planning is often done by looking at the bricks and trying to stack them, and then you can create only so much.

我能做什么？”我认为大多数计划通常是通过查看砖块并尝试将它们堆叠起来来完成的，然后你只能创造这么多。

And so I guess the column B thinking is thinking about what is that magical wonderful future that you then want to invest years and decades of your life actually building?

所以我想 B 栏的想法是在思考你想要投入数年甚至数十年的生命来实际建设的神奇美好的未来是什么？

And so that's column A and column B in a nutshell.

简而言之，这就是 A 列和 B 列。

Lenny Rachitsky: So column A is the traditional just work from today's world.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以A柱是当今世界的传统正义作品。

Column B is work from this dream reality and work backwards from how to achieve that.

B 栏是从这个梦想现实开始的工作，并从如何实现这一目标开始向后工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is exactly the way actually Brian Chesky thought.

Lenny Rachitsky：这正是 Brian Chesky 的想法。

I worked at Airbnb for a long time and it was always just, "Think about the world, the dream and then work backwards from that," so there's a lot clearly also worked out.

我在 Airbnb 工作了很长一段时间，一直都是这样，“思考世界、梦想，然后从中倒推”，所以很多事情都已经解决了。

So clearly this is an important lesson in the example of Canva, just what would've been column A for what Canva could have been and how did you think about the column B approach of what Canva in a dreamland could be?

很明显，这是 Canva 示例中的一个重要教训，对于 Canva 本来的样子，A 列应该是什么？您如何看待梦境中 Canva 的 B 列方法？

Melanie Perkins: So column A would've been nothing frankly, because the reality was when I was a university student with no company and no business or product or software experience, the reality would've been not very much.

Melanie Perkins：坦白说，A 栏没什么内容，因为现实是，当我还是一名大学生时，没有公司，也没有业务、产品或软件经验，所以现实情况不会有太多。

And so it was all column B, it was all thinking about the wild future that we wanted to create.

所以这都是B栏，都是在思考我们想要创造的狂野未来。

Imagine what would be publishing in the future, what would communications look like in the future?

想象一下未来的出版会是什么样子，未来的通讯会是什么样子？

And it seemed really impossible that it would stay on the desktop, it would stay really complicated.

而且它似乎真的不可能留在桌面上，它会变得非常复杂。

And it just seemed so apparent to me that in the future it was going to be completely different.

对我来说，显而易见的是，未来的情况将会完全不同。

Could I build that future?

我能创造那个未来吗？

I had absolutely no idea, but the idea, it seemed completely likely, completely improbable that it wouldn't be the case that in the future, design would be online and collaborative and really simple.

我完全不知道，但这个想法似乎完全有可能，完全不可能，未来的设计不会是在线的、协作的，而且非常简单。

And so starting from that, we then took that concept and applied it to the school yearbook market in Australia with our first company Fusion Books.

因此，从那时起，我们采用了这个概念，并将其应用到澳大利亚的学校年鉴市场，并成立了我们的第一家公司 Fusion Books。

And then we applied it to Canva where we wanted to take it much, much bigger.

然后我们将其应用到 Canva 上，我们希望将其做得更大。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about just how to actually go about building a Column B company.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈如何真正着手建立一家 Column B 公司。

Say a founder is listening to this and they're just like, "Okay, I want to do this." What do they do?

假设一位创始人正在听这个，他们就会说，“好吧，我想这样做。”他们做什么？

What are the steps?

步骤是什么？

Where do you start?

你从哪里开始？

Melanie Perkins: I really like to start by just imagining what is the future that you actually want?

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我真的很喜欢首先想象一下你真正想要的未来是什么？

What is the world that you want to live in?

你想生活在一个什么样的世界？

What is the future of transportation?

交通运输的未来是什么？

What is the future of healthcare?

医疗保健的未来是什么？

What is the future that you want to live in and exist in?

你想要生活和存在的未来是什么？

And for example, right now I have a wall in my house in my office, which is my vision for what I'd like the world to look like in 2050.

例如，现在我的房子和办公室里有一堵墙，这是我对 2050 年世界的愿景。

And so it's not necessarily that you can bring that into existence or you can will that into existence, but just to start to get clearer on what you would like that world to be like.

因此，你不一定能实现它，也不一定能通过意志实现它，而只是开始更清楚你希望那个世界是什么样子。

Would you like it to be more inclusive?

您希望它更具包容性吗？

Would you like it?

你愿意吗？

For me, one of the things I desperately want is everyone on this planet to have their basic human needs met.

对我来说，我迫切想要的事情之一就是这个星球上的每个人的基本人类需求都得到满足。

Melanie Perkins: What are those things that you believe are so important that you would love to see exist in that future?

梅兰妮·珀金斯：您认为哪些事情如此重要以至于您希望看到未来存在？

And I think an exercise we often do is what is wild success for X, or what is wild success for Y?

我认为我们经常做的一个练习是，什么是 X 的巨大成功，或者 Y 的巨大成功？

And then equally, what is terrible failure for those things?

同样，对于这些事情来说，什么是可怕的失败？

And you can apply that just to abstract thinking in different industries.

您可以将其应用于不同行业的抽象思维。

You can do that, apply that.

你可以做到这一点，应用它。

We do that for the whole company for different areas of the company.

我们为整个公司的不同领域这样做。

And I think just taking that very long timescale of 10 years and getting a really crisp idea of what you want, of what you don't want, that's sort of the first step.

我认为，花 10 年的时间跨度，清楚地了解自己想要什么、不想要什么，这就是第一步。

And I think a lot of people don't spend quite enough time imagining that.

我认为很多人没有花足够的时间去想象这一点。

And then the next part is you don't want to just have this crazy big dream and then do nothing about turning it into reality.

接下来的部分是，你不想只是拥有这个疯狂的大梦想，然后不采取任何行动将其变成现实。

Melanie Perkins: You kind of want to have a ladder that goes all the way up to the moon, which is your crazy, wild vision.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：你有点想要有一个梯子，一直延伸到月球，这是你疯狂、狂野的愿景。

And then you want to have rungs that just work its way up step by step.

然后你希望梯级能够一步一步向上。

And so you want to get that really clear picture of the future that you would like and then just take little step, after little step, after little step.

所以你想要对你想要的未来有一个非常清晰的了解，然后只迈出一小步，一步一步，一步一步。

And it doesn't matter how small that first step is or how seemingly inconsequential if it is working towards that future that you want to will into existence, then you'll keep on climbing up that ladder in the right direction.

不管第一步有多小，或者看起来多么无关紧要，只要它正在朝着你想要实现的未来努力，那么你就会继续沿着正确的方向爬上梯子。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lot of people hearing this might feel like, "I do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想很多人听到这句话可能会觉得，“我就是这样做的。

Yeah, I have a vision.

是的，我有一个愿景。

I know where I'm going.

我知道我要去哪里。

I have this big idea." What do you think they might be missing about just what this actually means and why they're probably not thinking big enough, they're not making the time to think this.

我有这个伟大的想法。”你认为他们可能忽略了这实际上意味着什么，以及为什么他们可能没有足够大的想法，他们没有时间思考这一点。

Melanie Perkins: I think it is easy to be discouraged by the two, because they're completely two complete odds.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我认为这两者很容易让人泄气，因为它们完全是两个完全的胜算。

They're completely different ends of the spectrum.

他们是完全不同的两端。

So one is dreaming about the future, not that you think you can will into existence, it's just the future that you want.

所以，一个人梦想的是未来，不是你认为你可以实现的，而是你想要的未来。

And then the next part is taking the tiny step that might be extremely microscopic and it feels a little embarrassing to be like, "I want a future that is," whatever it might be.

然后下一部分是迈出可能非常微观的微小一步，感觉有点尴尬，就像“我想要一个未来”，无论它是什么。

And then to take such a microscopic step because I think you often have the future in one side or don't spend much time thinking about that.

然后采取如此微观的步骤，因为我认为你经常拥有未来，或者不会花太多时间思考这一点。

You're just thinking about the bricks before you.

你只是在想你面前的砖块。

And so I think it's also naturally we all get distracted by day-to-day.

所以我认为我们很自然地会被日常生活分散注意力。

It's your email, your Slack, the things that are kind of in your face, the reality that lives around you every day that kind of pulls you into this moment right now.

是你的电子邮件、你的 Slack、你脸上的东西、你每天周围的现实将你拉入此时此刻。

Melanie Perkins: And so I think actually just making time to spend thinking about that is probably one of the most critical pieces.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：所以我认为实际上花时间思考这一点可能是最关键的部分之一。

Just literally dreaming what is wild success in 10 years, what is terrible failure in 10 years is a really great place to start, is just spending some time there.

只是梦想着 10 年后的巨大成功，10 年后的可怕失败，这确实是一个很好的起点，只是花一些时间在那里。

And then even if that is so big and so vast and so wild, having that very first step is so important because then you take that little tiny first step and then the next step then that compounds for us, it's been compounding over a decade as we continue to work towards that same mission and vision.

即使这是如此大、如此广阔、如此狂野，迈出第一步也非常重要，因为然后你迈出那小小的第一步，然后下一步，然后这对我们来说是复合的，十多年来，随着我们继续努力实现同样的使命和愿景，它一直在复合。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to hear how you operationalize this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想听听您如何实施这一点。

I heard from one of your team members, Melissa Tan, that there's a deck like this for every project you kick off.

我从您的一位团队成员 Melissa Tan 那里听说，您启动的每个项目都有一个这样的平台。

There's this big vision deck.

有这个大愿景甲板。

Talk about what that looks like, because I think that's where people are like, "Okay, how do I actually do this?" Talk about that deck.

谈论这看起来是什么样子，因为我认为这就是人们的想法，“好吧，我实际上该怎么做？”说说那套牌。

Melanie Perkins: So we have this concept of chaos to clarity and every idea starts in the chaos side, and then you have to work all the way to the other side, which is clarity.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：所以我们有从混乱到清晰的概念，每个想法都从混乱的一面开始，然后你必须一直努力到另一边，那就是清晰。

And so chaos can be an idea, it can be a problem, it can be a philosophy or a belief.

所以混沌可以是一个想法，它可以是一个问题，它可以是一种哲学或一种信仰。

And I've got a joke that I find funny.

我有一个我觉得很好笑的笑话。

I'm not sure if you will, but how do you go from chaos to clarity?

我不确定你是否愿意，但如何从混乱走向清晰？

You add clarity.

你增加了清晰度。

And so the idea is that each little step from chaos to clarity is the very first step might be literally writing it down.

因此，我们的想法是，从混乱到清晰的每一个小步骤都是第一步，可能会从字面上把它写下来。

So rather than it being in your head, you've written it down, then the next step might be starting to create a pitch deck on it.

因此，你不是把它记在脑子里，而是把它写下来，那么下一步可能就是开始在上面创建一个宣传材料。

And the next step might be starting to refine that, turning it into some designs, turning into a prototype.

下一步可能会开始完善它，将其转变为一些设计，转变为原型。

And then as it kind of goes from chaos to clarity, it starts to become more and more real and more and more people can see it.

然后，随着它从混乱变得清晰，它开始变得越来越真实，越来越多的人可以看到它。

And so just taking those little incremental steps that adds clarity with every single step, then starts to help will it into existence rather than it being something that's completely amorphous and just stays in your head.

因此，只需采取这些渐进的小步骤，让每一步都变得清晰，然后开始帮助它实现，而不是让它成为完全无定形的东西，只停留在你的脑海里。

So I think that's why visual communication for us is so important, is because otherwise, if it's just in your head, no one else can see it and you can't will it into existence.

所以我认为这就是为什么视觉传达对我们如此重要，因为否则，如果它只存在于你的脑海中，其他人就看不到它，你也无法将它实现。

Lenny Rachitsky: This makes me think about this concept of an ugly baby from the book, Creativity Inc., by I think Ed Catmull where he talks about how new ideas or this ugly baby that nobody wants to look at and deal with that I think he says they want to kill.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：这让我想起了埃德·卡特穆尔（Ed Catmull）所著的《创意公司》一书中关于丑陋婴儿的概念，他在书中谈到了如何新想法或这个没人愿意看到和处理的丑陋婴儿，我认为他说他们想杀死它。

I don't know why you would do that with an ugly baby.

我不知道你为什么要对一个丑陋的孩子这么做。

But there are these very soft, fragile things and it's really important to not kill them early and give them a chance to survive.

但有一些非常柔软、脆弱的东西，不要过早杀死它们并给它们生存的机会，这一点非常重要。

And it's kind what I'm hearing here is have this big vision that many people are be like, "No, wait.

我在这里听到的很高兴的是，很多人都有这样的远大愿景，“不，等等。

This is completely absurd." And I love this idea of, "Okay, but here's one step we could take there to see if this could be a thing."

这完全是荒谬的。”我喜欢这个想法，“好吧，但我们可以采取一个步骤，看看这是否会成为一件事。”

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, I completely agree.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：是的，我完全同意。

And I think that's the thing is that that very first step at the very far end of chaos, it's very embarrassing because you're like, "I have this idea that is so big and so wild and how the hell would I do that?

我认为问题在于，在混乱的尽头迈出的第一步是非常尴尬的，因为你会想，“我有一个如此大、如此疯狂的想法，我到底该怎么做呢？

I have no idea." And so it's quite a embarrassing step, actually, because you don't have mastery at that point.

我不知道。”实际上，这是一个相当尴尬的步骤，因为那时你还没有掌握。

You don't have all the answers.

你没有所有的答案。

In fact, you have likely none of the answers, but you just have the idea that you think would be cool.

事实上，你可能没有任何答案，但你只是有一个你认为很酷的想法。

And ideally you get the idea that it would be so cool that you want to work really hard to will that into existence.

理想情况下，你会觉得这太酷了，以至于你想要努力工作以实现它。

And so I think one of the really key parts is not only just having the idea but thinking it's so cool that you're going to work for years to will it into existence.

因此，我认为真正关键的部分之一不仅是拥有这个想法，而且还认为它非常酷，以至于您需要花费数年时间才能将其实现。

Actually Melissa did a really amazing pitch deck recently about the vision of, I won't go into the details right here, but the vision of her space and I was really excited about it.

事实上，梅丽莎最近做了一个非常令人惊叹的融资演讲稿，内容是关于愿景的，我不会在这里详细介绍细节，但她的空间的愿景让我感到非常兴奋。

And so I think that that's the great thing about a pitch deck, is that other people can see your thinking and your thinking actually gets clarified as well as you go through that process.

所以我认为融资演讲稿的伟大之处在于，其他人可以看到你的想法，并且在你经历这个过程时，你的想法实际上会得到澄清。

Lenny Rachitsky: I talked to Melissa, I talked to a bunch of other people that work at Canva, that have worked at Canva, and something else I heard along these lines is this phrase, Crazy Big Goals, which I think is one of your values.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和 Melissa 谈过，我和其他一些在 Canva 工作过的人谈过，我还听到过这句话，“疯狂的大目标”，我认为这是你们的价值观之一。

Crazy Big Goals.

疯狂的大目标。

I love that as a value.

我喜欢它作为一种价值观。

Why is that so important?

为什么这如此重要？

How does that fit into this?

这与此有何关系？

And just talk about the power of having Crazy Big Goals.

谈谈拥有疯狂的大目标的力量。

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, so right from the start of Canva, it was truly a crazy-big goal.

Melanie Perkins：是的，从 Canva 一开始，这确实是一个疯狂的大目标。

We're like, "We want to empower the world of design and take all these things that are super complicated and put them into one platform and make it accessible to the whole world.

我们就像是，“我们希望赋予设计世界力量，将所有这些超级复杂的东西放入一个平台中，让全世界都能使用。

And we want to, rather than it be super expensive and unaffordable, we want to empower everyone everywhere in the world to design." So I mean, that was the epitome of a crazy big goal.

我们希望让世界各地的每个人都能进行设计，而不是让它变得超级昂贵和难以承受。”所以我的意思是，这是一个疯狂的大目标的缩影。

And if we macro out even further, we've got this two-step plan, build one of the world's most valuable companies and do the most good we can do.

如果我们的宏观视野更进一步，我们有一个两步走的计划，建立世界上最有价值的公司之一，并尽我们所能。

So again, a rather crazy big goal.

再说一次，这是一个相当疯狂的大目标。

And I think the thing that I love about a crazy big goal is that you feel completely inadequate before it.

我认为我喜欢疯狂的大目标的一点是，在它面前你会感觉自己完全不够格。

Another crazy big goal.

另一个疯狂的大目标。

We'd love to see everyone's basic human needs met on the planet.

我们很高兴看到地球上每个人的基本人类需求得到满足。

Completely crazy big, that truly shouldn't be.

完全疯狂的大，这确实不应该。

It's kind of absolutely absurd that that's the case, but we can go into that later.

事实确实如此，这绝对是荒谬的，但我们可以稍后再讨论。

Melanie Perkins: But I think with a crazy big goal, then you want to work really hard to will it into existence.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：但我认为，有了一个疯狂的大目标，你就需要非常努力地努力实现它。

And so if you start with a reasonable goal or a realistic goal, then you kind of get to it and you're like, "Oh cool, whatever." Or more importantly, if something happens, all the problems and roadblocks come along as they always do, then you're like, "Okay, I won't bother with that." And then you can just go and choose another course.

因此，如果你从一个合理的目标或一个现实的目标开始，那么当你达到它时，你会说，“哦，酷，无论如何。”或者更重要的是，如果发生了什么事，所有的问题和障碍都会像往常一样出现，然后你会想，“好吧，我不会为此烦恼。”然后你就可以去选择另一门课程。

And so a crazy big goal is both crazy big, but it's also something that you think is incredibly important that you actually want to will into existence because it is so much work to will a crazy big goal into existence.

因此，一个疯狂的大目标不仅是疯狂的大，而且也是你认为非常重要的事情，你实际上想要实现它，因为要实现一个疯狂的大目标需要付出很多工作。

So it better be one that you want to actually achieve.

所以它最好是你真正想要实现的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a crazy big goal that you set that comes to mind maybe as a good example of, "This is what I'm talking about?" Maybe a product you launched or feature back in the day?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否设定了一个疯狂的大目标，这可能是一个很好的例子，“这就是我所说的？”也许是您当时推出或推出的产品？

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, I mean so many things.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：是的，我的意思有很多。

So we have our mission to empower the world to design and we break it down into mission pillars.

因此，我们的使命是让世界能够进行设计，并将其分解为多个使命支柱。

So empower everyone to design anything with every ingredient in every language on every device, obviously a mouthful.

因此，让每个人都能够在每台设备上使用每种语言、每种语言来设计任何东西，这显然是一个拗口的事情。

But then what we do is we take successive goals every year towards this mission.

但我们所做的就是每年为实现这一使命制定连续的目标。

And so for designing anything, we started off with social media and presentations and docs and websites and whiteboards and video.

因此，为了设计任何东西，我们从社交媒体、演示文稿、文档、网站、白板和视频开始。

And so every year we're just launching more and more things to fulfill that part of the mission of empowering everyone to design anything.

因此，每年我们都会推出越来越多的产品，以实现让每个人都能设计任何东西的使命。

And then equally in every language we started in English and then it was Spanish and then it was 20 languages and then a hundred languages and then hard languages like Arabic and Hebrew and Urdu and right to left languages.

然后，我们从英语开始，然后是西班牙语，然后是 20 种语言，然后是 100 种语言，然后是阿拉伯语、希伯来语和乌尔都语等硬语言，以及从右到左的语言。

And now we're in a hundred plus languages now and now we're really doubling down on the localization experience to make it feel truly local in every market around the world.

现在我们已经提供了一百多种语言，现在我们确实加倍了本地化体验，使其在世界各地的每个市场都感觉真正本地化。

Melanie Perkins: And so you can see how having these very big, audacious goals that you then just take a step after step towards helps then will it into existence or on every device.

Melanie Perkins：所以你可以看到，拥有这些非常大、大胆的目标，然后你只需一步一步地实现它，就能帮助它实现或在每个设备上实现。

We started off obviously just with a web platform and then we launched our iPad app and then iPhone and then Android and then we spent years investing in cross-platform.

显然，我们一开始只是一个网络平台，然后我们推出了 iPad 应用程序，然后是 iPhone，然后是 Android，然后我们花了数年时间投资于跨平台。

So we have the same feature set across every device.

因此，我们在每台设备上都具有相同的功能集。

And so you can see how these big amorphous things that seem very outlandish, you can then just will into existence after continual investment for a decade and it compounds over time.

所以你可以看到，这些看似非常奇怪的巨大的、无定形的东西，在持续投资十年后，你就可以实现，并且随着时间的推移而复合。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see how all this is starting to fade together.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到这一切是如何开始一起消失的。

There's this big crazy ambitious vision and below there are the mission pillars that are feeding into this vision and then the Crazy Big Goals within each of those mission pillars to measure your progress towards all these components of the mission.

有一个巨大而疯狂的雄心勃勃的愿景，下面是融入该愿景的任务支柱，然后是每个任务支柱中的疯狂大目标，以衡量您在实现任务的所有这些组成部分方面的进展。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so with all that in mind, there's also this kind of trade-off you have to make of just how ambitious you get because oftentimes sometimes maybe you never miss the goal, but many times people miss these very ambitious goals.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，考虑到所有这些，你还必须根据自己的雄心壮志进行权衡，因为有时也许你永远不会错过目标，但很多时候人们会错过这些非常雄心勃勃的目标。

How do you just find that balance between ambitious crazy but doable enough where people don't get discouraged?

如何在野心勃勃、疯狂但又足够可行之间找到平衡，让人们不会灰心丧气？

Melanie Perkins: I think with a crazy big goal, the thing we have been really great at is achieving them.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我认为，有了一个疯狂的大目标，我们真正擅长的就是实现它们。

The timeframe that we achieve them on has not always been very reliable.

我们实现这些目标的时间表并不总是非常可靠。

We have certainly not been able to have pin dart.

我们当然无法拥有针飞镖。

What's it?

是什么？

Melanie Perkins: We have not been very accurate with timing, but it's really interesting.

Melanie Perkins：我们的时间安排不是很准确，但这确实很有趣。

I look back at a 2021 vision deck that we made obviously in 2021, but it was about 2026 and it was fascinating to see how much we'd actually been able to achieve from that vision deck and how many things were currently still in flight.

我回顾了我们在 2021 年制定的 2021 年愿景，但那是在 2026 年左右，看到我们实际上能够从该愿景中实现多少目标以及目前仍有多少事情仍在进行中，这真是令人着迷。

And so by having that, I thought in 2021, some of those things may have happened a little quicker, but over the last five years they've really been coming into reality.

因此，我想，到了 2021 年，这些事情可能会发生得更快一些，但在过去五年里，它们确实已经成为现实。

And so we might think things are going to take six months and they take a year.

因此，我们可能认为事情需要六个月，但实际上需要一年。

We might think things are going to take six months and they take two years.

我们可能认为事情需要六个月，但实际上需要两年。

This has been the case.

情况就是如此。

We might think something's actually going to take our entire lifetime as some of those really truly Crazy Big Goals.

我们可能会认为有些事情实际上会花费我们一生的时间来实现，就像那些真正疯狂的大目标一样。

And in fact, I don't even know if we can ever achieve them frankly.

事实上，坦白说，我什至不知道我们是否能够实现这些目标。

But they're such an important goal that even if you make a little step in their direction, they're worthwhile nonetheless.

但它们是一个如此重要的目标，即使你朝着它们的方向迈出了一小步，它们仍然是值得的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you like him or not, Elon, this is similar to his, if you watch him, he sets these really ambitious goals and then often is far late on achieving them, but clearly it has worked out in achieving the crazy things that he's achieved.

伦尼·拉奇茨基：无论你是否喜欢他，埃隆，这和他的很相似，如果你观察他，他设定了这些非常雄心勃勃的目标，然后往往很晚才实现这些目标，但显然它已经成功地实现了他所实现的疯狂目标。

Something else I hear is you celebrate these goals in a really unique way.

我听到的另一件事是你以一种非常独特的方式庆祝这些目标。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Melanie Perkins: So when we have these Crazy Big Goals, we also have couple them with really fun celebrations.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：所以当我们有这些疯狂的大目标时，我们还会将它们与非常有趣的庆祝活动结合起来。

And so we attempt to make the Crazy Big Goals happen in a moment in time.

因此，我们试图让疯狂的大目标及时实现。

So then when we achieve them, we actually have a really fun moment because if you're just trying to plod towards the top of the mountain always and you never take a little moment to pat yourself on the back, it would feel a little arduous.

因此，当我们实现这些目标时，我们实际上度过了一个非常有趣的时刻，因为如果你总是试图艰难地走向山顶，而你从不花一点时间拍拍自己的背，那会感觉有点困难。

And so over the years we had all sorts of fun little celebrations where we have smashed great plates and released doves and had a La Tomatina festival.

因此，多年来，我们举办了各种有趣的小型庆祝活动，我们砸碎了大盘子，放出了鸽子，并举办了西红柿节。

Melanie Perkins: All sorts of fun things just to take a moment with the team to celebrate that huge achievement.

Melanie Perkins：各种有趣的事情只是为了与团队一起庆祝这一巨大成就。

And so I think that you want to celebrate what you want to really focus on and what you want everyone to take that moment.

所以我认为你想要庆祝你真正想要关注的事情以及你希望每个人都采取的那一刻。

So when you achieve that crazy big goal when we launch in Spanish, when we hit a hundred languages and then the so forth across the company, taking that moment to actually pat yourself on the back and pat the teams on the back and say, "Hey, we did this thing.

因此，当你实现了这个疯狂的大目标时，当我们推出西班牙语时，当我们推出一百种语言，然后在整个公司等等时，利用这一刻来真正拍拍自己的背，拍拍团队的背说，“嘿，我们做到了这件事。

That thing that seemed really hard, we've now achieved." And the mission is often each of the different mission pillars, they're obviously a long area of investment that's going to take a long time to get to, but being able to celebrate each of the rungs on that on the way there I think is extraordinarily important.

这件事看起来确实很难，但我们现在已经实现了。”使命通常是每个不同的使命支柱，它们显然是一个漫长的投资领域，需要很长时间才能实现，但我认为能够在实现这一目标的过程中庆祝每一个阶段是非常重要的。

And then everyone works extraordinarily hard to bring them to life and then it gives everyone a little moment to feel proud of themselves.

然后每个人都非常努力地将它们变为现实，然后每个人都有一点为自己感到自豪的时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: It'd be very motivating to get to just break a bunch of plates.

Lenny Rachitsky：打破一堆盘子会非常有动力。

I really like that.

我真的很喜欢这样。

Celebration strategy.

庆祝策略。

Melanie Perkins: We need to bring that one back.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我们需要把那个带回来。

We haven't done that one in a while.

我们有一段时间没有这样做了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a good one.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一件好事。

I just love how concrete you're making this.

我只是喜欢你说得那么具体。

So it's set these Crazy Big Goals, confine the component of the goals, set numbers there and then figure out the kind of steps you take to achieve these things.

因此，它设定了这些疯狂的大目标，限制目标的组成部分，在那里设定数字，然后找出实现这些目标所采取的步骤。

All fail is very easy.

所有的失败都很容易。

On the flip side of that, this is a segue.

另一方面，这是一个segue。

People hear these stories, they hear your story, they see Canva over the years and it's just this up into the right huge success story, one of the most successful companies in history.

人们听到这些故事，他们听到你的故事，他们看到 Canva 多年来，这就是一个巨大的成功故事，历史上最成功的公司之一。

I imagine there have been many periods where things weren't going so great and when maybe things didn't look like they would work out.

我想有很多时期事情进展得不太顺利，而且事情看起来也不会顺利。

So let me just ask you this over the course of building Canva, once it started to click and started to feel like it was going to be a thing, was there a point where it started to again feel like, "Wow, maybe this may not work out.

所以让我在构建 Canva 的过程中问你这个问题，一旦它开始点击并开始感觉它将成为一件事，是否有一个点再次开始让人感觉，“哇，也许这可能行不通。

Maybe there's a huge setback that we may not get over?"

也许我们遇到了无法克服的巨大挫折？”

Melanie Perkins: I think it's just a constant evolution.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我认为这只是一个不断的演变。

Every time the company doubles in size, pretty much all your systems break, all the things that were working don't work.

每当公司规模扩大一倍时，几乎所有系统都会崩溃，所有有效的东西都不起作用。

A little example, in the early days we'd stand up and everyone would present their goals, what they're working on every day, every week.

举个小例子，在早期，我们会站起来，每个人都会展示他们的目标，以及他们每天、每周所做的工作。

And then it kind of moved every month and then it was just taking too long because we've got so many people.

然后它每个月都会移动，然后花了太长时间，因为我们有太多人。

And then it was sort of like we'd started doing these things called season openers and season openers were really fun where we got the entire company together, we talked about the goals that we'd achieved.

然后我们就开始做这些叫做赛季揭幕战的事情，赛季揭幕战真的很有趣，我们把整个公司聚集在一起，我们讨论了我们已经实现的目标。

And it was so funny because ahead of season openers, everyone would launch everything because they wanted to do it ahead of the season opener.

这很有趣，因为在赛季揭幕战之前，每个人都会推出一切，因为他们想在赛季揭幕战之前做到这一点。

And then we'd also set the goals for the coming cycle for the coming season at that point in time.

然后我们还会在那个时间点为下个赛季的下一个周期设定目标。

Melanie Perkins: But then they started to become six hours long because we had so many people and so many teams.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：但后来他们开始变得六个小时长，因为我们有这么多人和这么多团队。

And so trying to find that right with the same philosophies of deep context for everyone with the same philosophies of the celebrations and the goals and trying to find that right flavor at every stage of scale is definitely hard.

因此，试图为具有相同庆祝理念和目标的每个人找到相同的深层背景理念，并试图在每个规模阶段找到正确的风格绝对是困难的。

And so I think it's just a constant work in progress.

所以我认为这只是一项持续不断的工作。

Or back to your earlier point about timing of things, we were doing a front-end rewrite and we thought it would take about six months.

或者回到你之前关于事情时间安排的观点，我们正在进行前端重写，我们认为这需要大约六个月的时间。

It was really important because it was critical for cross-platform.

这非常重要，因为它对于跨平台至关重要。

It was critical for right to left.

这对于从右到左至关重要。

It was critical because we could only have five people working in our editor at any point in time because of the way the code base was structured and we thought it was going to take six months and then it took two years and it was two years of not shipping any product, two years of a product company not being able to ship product.

这很关键，因为由于代码库的结构方式，我们在任何时候都只能有五个人在我们的编辑器中工作，我们原以为这需要六个月的时间，然后花了两年的时间，两年没有交付任何产品，两年的产品公司无法交付产品。

Melanie Perkins: And that is such a core motivation for our team.

Melanie Perkins：这是我们团队的核心动力。

He's shipping something, seeing great customer feedback and that kind of makes everyone feel happy and you've got momentum and it just felt like we're in a dark, dark tunnel that we could hardly see the end of the tunnel.

他正在运送一些东西，看到了很好的客户反馈，这让每个人都感到高兴，你就有了动力，感觉就像我们在一条黑暗的隧道里，我们几乎看不到隧道的尽头。

And we didn't really know how long it was going to take because it just had to take as long as the tunnel was going to take.

我们真的不知道需要多长时间，因为隧道需要花多长时间才能完成。

And it was a very hard time because other people would be launching this and that.

那是一段非常艰难的时期，因为其他人会推出这个或那个。

And it was eventually we got out of that tunnel and it was extremely important that we did that work.

最终我们走出了隧道，我们完成这项工作非常重要。

We've now got two and a half thousand engineers and we're able to deliver amazing things that would've just been completely infeasible and simultaneous collaboration, so many things were baked into this.

我们现在有两个半千名工程师，我们能够提供令人惊叹的东西，而这些东西是完全不可行的，同时协作，所以很多东西都融入其中。

But yeah, it was not a fun period of time.

但是，是的，那不是一段有趣的时光。

A product company not shipping product is not really a recipe for fun.

一家不发货产品的产品公司并不是真正的乐趣所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like every builder listening to this knows exactly what you've been through and maybe not on that scale in those stakes, but you start on something, "Oh yeah, it'll take a few weeks," and then a year later you're still working on it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得每一个听到这个的建筑商都清楚地知道你经历过什么，也许在这些赌注中没有那么大的规模，但你开始做一些事情，“哦，是的，这需要几周的时间”，然后一年后你仍然在努力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just was the mood really, I don't know, sad internally?

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，内心真的很悲伤吗？

Two years, that's a long time not to ship anything.

两年了，没有发货已经是很长一段时间了。

Just what was it like internally during that period?

那段时间内部情况如何？

Melanie Perkins: I think it was kind of everything internally.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我认为这就是内部的一切。

We made it into a bit of a game.

我们把它变成了一个游戏。

We had this game board and I bought these little rubber ducky sort of bath toys and we had, so we all the little components represented as a bath toy on this board and there was all these stages of went launched in product.

我们有这个游戏板，我买了这些小橡皮鸭之类的沐浴玩具，我们有，所以我们所有的小组件都在这个板上表现为沐浴玩具，并且所有这些阶段都在产品中推出。

There was an emergency lane at the end of it was home and hosed.

家的尽头有一条紧急车道，并已用水管冲洗。

And we did these weekly stand ups where everyone would come in and talk where their bath toy was at and just, we tried to make it fun for the team.

我们每周都会举行站立会议，每个人都会进来谈论他们的沐浴玩具在哪里，只是，我们试图让团队变得有趣。

So it was partly fun and it was partly distressing as all of our investors were like, "Hey, that thing." So I think it was both things at the same time.

所以这一部分是有趣的，一部分是令人痛苦的，因为我们所有的投资者都会说，“嘿，那个东西。”所以我认为这两件事是同时发生的。

It was bonding let's say.

可以说，这是一种联系。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Speaking of investors, speaking of other hard times, there's a very famous story about Canva.

说到投资者，说到其他艰难时期，有一个关于 Canva 的非常著名的故事。

Early on you pitched over a hundred investors and over a hundred investors said no to you when you were just starting Canva.

早期，您向一百多名投资者进行了推介，而当您刚刚创办 Canva 时，一百多名投资者拒绝了您。

I think that's important.

我认为这很重要。

The investors than any founder I've talked to actually tries to pitch.

与我交谈过的任何创始人相比，投资者实际上都在尝试推销。

It's impressive you tried that hard and went for so many pitches and finally got someone to take a bet.

令人印象深刻的是，你如此努力，进行了如此多的宣传，最后终于有人下注了。

Now you are something like a $40 billion company making 3.3 billion ARR.

现在，您就像一家价值 400 亿美元、年收入 33 亿的公司。

I think there's something like $240 million monthly active users, one of the hottest private companies in the world.

我认为每月活跃用户约为 2.4 亿美元，是世界上最热门的私营公司之一。

Just how does this feel?

这感觉如何？

Melanie Perkins: I don't know.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我不知道。

It was really clear in my mind that it was the future and I thought the investors were wrong, frankly.

我心里非常清楚，这就是未来，坦率地说，我认为投资者是错误的。

But investors also gave really helpful feedback and feedback often in the form of rejection.

但投资者也给出了真正有用的反馈，而且反馈往往以拒绝的形式出现。

So they would say, "Oh, your market's not big enough." And I would say, "It's going to be huge." And I'd add a new page in my pitch deck that said how big the market I believe was.

所以他们会说，“哦，你们的市场不够大。”我会说，“这将是巨大的。”我会在我的宣传材料中添加一个新页面，说明我认为的市场有多大。

And then they'd say, "You're the same as some other company," coupled with rejection, and I would say, "Hey, now I've got a new slide in my pitch deck that shows all the players and the huge gap in the market that we believe we're going to fill." Or most investors just knew absolutely nothing about design or the industry that we're in.

然后他们会说，“你和其他一些公司一样”，然后遭到拒绝，我会说，“嘿，现在我的宣传材料中有一张新幻灯片，它显示了所有参与者以及我们相信我们将填补的市场巨大空白。”或者大多数投资者对设计或我们所处的行业一无所知。

And so we then ended up with the first few slides saying, "Here's the lay of the land today.

因此，我们最后的前几张幻灯片上写着：“这就是今天的情况。

Here's the problem that we're going to solve."

这就是我们要解决的问题。”

Melanie Perkins: And so while it was extraordinarily frustrating, their feedback made us stronger and made our pitch deck stronger.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：虽然这非常令人沮丧，但他们的反馈让我们变得更强大，也让我们的融资方案变得更强大。

And it was sort of from that chaos to clarity.

这有点从混乱到清晰。

At the start it was this idea and then through the copious amounts of rejection, the pitch deck got stronger and more refined.

一开始就是这个想法，然后经过大量的拒绝，融资方案变得更强大、更完善。

So then when people, the first time I remember I spoke to someone for hours and they eventually got it.

所以当人们，我记得第一次我和某人交谈了几个小时，他们最终明白了。

They were really committed to understanding what we were trying to do, but then not everyone has six hours to understand a concept.

他们确实致力于理解我们想要做的事情，但并不是每个人都有六个小时来理解一个概念。

And so being able to take all the gems of wisdom from that conversation and have that understood really clearly in a really short period of time and have all of the reasons that people were rejecting us pre-answered in that initial pitch deck was really important.

因此，能够从这次谈话中汲取所有智慧的精华，并在很短的时间内真正清楚地理解这一点，并在最初的宣传材料中预先回答人们拒绝我们的所有原因，这一点非常重要。

And I think that's probably one of the reasons why when I look back at our 2012 pitch deck, it's so valid and really still captures what we're doing today.

我认为这可能就是为什么当我回顾 2012 年的宣传材料时，我会发现它非常有效，而且仍然体现了我们今天所做的事情的原因之一。

And so I think that rejection in some ways makes you stronger if you can persist through.

所以我认为，如果你能坚持下去，从某种程度上来说，拒绝会让你变得更坚强。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I think beyond that, I've never heard this part of the story.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我想除此之外，我从未听说过这部分故事。

It's not just persisting, it's actually iterating and taking feedback that you're hearing to continue to evolve the pitch to a place where, "Okay, I finally get what you're doing." That is such a cool part of the story.

这不仅仅是坚持，实际上是迭代并接受你听到的反馈，以继续将音调发展到“好吧，我终于明白你在做什么了”。这是故事中非常酷的部分。

How much of that vision and product changed throughout that journey versus just the way you pitched it and convinced people?

与您推销和说服人们的方式相比，愿景和产品在整个旅程中发生了多少变化？

Melanie Perkins: It was pretty consistent, but the way we articulated it changed greatly.

Melanie Perkins：它非常一致，但我们表达它的方式发生了很大变化。

And so for example, I wouldn't, in the early days, articulate the problem very much.

例如，在早期，我不会详细阐明这个问题。

And I went into, "Here's the cool solution." And so then the first few pages became very much more problem-based because if people don't understand the problem then they can't understand or care about your solution.

我说：“这是一个很酷的解决方案。”因此，前几页变得更加基于问题，因为如果人们不理解问题，那么他们就无法理解或关心您的解决方案。

And so there was a lot of refinement on the way it was articulated, but the actual vision itself I think was pretty consistent through.

因此，它的表达方式有很多改进，但我认为实际的愿景本身是相当一致的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Guessing a lot of founders ask for your advice on raising money, getting started, having gone through so much rejection early on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我猜很多创始人都会向你寻求有关融资、起步的建议，因为他们在早期经历了如此多的拒绝。

What's your general advice to folks that are having a hard time fundraising?

您对筹款困难的人们有什么一般建议？

Melanie Perkins: I mean, I can only go on my experience, but I think it's sort of the dark tunnel analogy.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我的意思是，我只能继续我的经历，但我认为这有点像黑暗隧道的类比。

Or chaos to clarity, let's go with that one.

或者从混乱到清晰，让我们选择那个。

It's a slightly friendlier analogy and I think just taking the rejection and turning into things that you can control.

这是一个稍微友好一点的类比，我认为只是接受拒绝并把事情变成你可以控制的事情。

So I can control my pitch deck, I can control the number of people I'm speaking to and I just spoke to literally everyone.

所以我可以控制我的演讲稿，我可以控制与我交谈的人数，而且我几乎与每个人都交谈过。

And I think that continuing to use it to refine it rather than taking it as a personal rejection, I think it's really important to think how can I improve?

我认为继续使用它来完善它而不是将其视为个人拒绝，我认为思考我如何才能改进是非常重要的？

How can I help someone to understand it?

我怎样才能帮助别人理解它？

Some people are never going to understand it.

有些人永远不会理解它。

I remember pitching an investor that had the lean startup book behind them when I was pitching them and they were never going to like Canva.

我记得当我向一位投资者推销精益创业书籍时，他们永远不会喜欢 Canva。

We were not the lean startup.

我们不是精益创业公司。

That was not the way that we were approaching it whatsoever.

无论如何，这都不是我们处理问题的方式。

So there's some people that are just going to never like you and that's okay.

所以有些人永远不会喜欢你，这没关系。

I think it's important to find some people that do what you're trying to say and trying to do and kind of finding your tribe, I think.

我认为找到一些人做你想说和想做的事情并找到你的部落是很重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: As an investor, this is really interesting to hear because it tells you there are companies like Canva there that everyone's turning down, a hundred investors passed on, that you might still be able to invest in.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名投资者，听到这个消息真的很有趣，因为它告诉你有像 Canva 这样的公司，每个人都在拒绝，一百个投资者都放弃了，但你仍然可以投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: Talking about your growth as a leader, say if you compare Melanie of today to Melanie of, I don't know, 12, 13 years ago when you were just starting Canva, what would you say is most different in terms of leadership?

Lenny Rachitsky：谈到您作为领导者的成长，如果您将今天的 Melanie 与 12、13 年前您刚刚创办 Canva 时的 Melanie 进行比较，您认为在领导力方面最大的不同是什么？

Melanie Perkins: I don't really know.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我真的不知道。

Probably if you ask other people around me, they'd probably be more observant.

如果你问我周围的其他人，他们可能会更细心。

But it is funny because there's some things that I think that I need to change and then I realize you go into it the same as some other company.

但这很有趣，因为我认为有些事情我需要改变，然后我意识到你和其他公司一样进入它。

And sometimes we even try that for a while and then we try that out and we're like...

有时我们甚至会尝试一段时间，然后我们尝试一下，我们就像......

It didn't really work for us.

它对我们来说并没有真正起作用。

And it's kind of building a house that you want every brick in the house to match.

这就像建造一栋房子，你希望房子里的每一块砖都匹配。

And if you go and try and take some bricks from someone else's house and stick it in your house, it's probably going to not look very matched.

如果你尝试从别人的房子里拿一些砖块贴在你的房子里，它可能看起来不太匹配。

And so trying to find things that are authentic to us and are authentic to everything that's come before it, is just that constant, constant thing.

因此，试图找到对我们来说真实的东西，对之前的一切来说都是真实的，这就是持续不断的事情。

And then each scale of each stage of scale of the company rather than going, taking someone else's bricks and trying to stick that in your house, trying to build the thing that's authentic.

然后公司规模的每个阶段的每个规模，而不是去拿别人的砖块并试图把它贴在你的房子里，试图建造真实的东西。

Melanie Perkins: So I think there's many things that are the same, but obviously the stage and scale and we're constantly having to give away hats.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：所以我认为有很多东西是相同的，但显然舞台和规模，我们总是不得不放弃帽子。

And so you kind of think about it in the very early days.

所以你在很早的时候就会考虑这个问题。

We just a few of us, two of us in Fusion and then three of us in a little tiny group, and you kind of wear a hundred hats and then you have to be able to give away those hats to other people that can then do that way better than yourself.

我们只有几个人，两个人在 Fusion，然后三个人组成一个小团体，你戴着一百顶帽子，然后你必须能够将这些帽子送给其他人，然后他们可以比你做得更好。

And so I'm sure there's been a few skills I guess I would've had to have developed over the last decade to be able to give away those hats.

所以我确信我想我必须在过去十年中发展一些技能才能赠送这些帽子。

But yeah, I think there's a lot of things that we've had to do and double down on that was more authentic to the way we did it in the early days actually.

但是，是的，我认为我们必须做很多事情，并且要加倍努力，这实际上比我们早期的做法更真实。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个故事。

I think again, if anyone working at a company that has gone through a lot of growth has experienced that when people from other companies come in and, "Here's how we did it at this company." Is there an example of some there that just like, "Here's something that this company brought in and people from this company thought we should do and we try it and didn't work?"

我再次想，如果任何在一家经历了很大发展的公司工作的人都经历过，当其他公司的人进来时，“这就是我们在这家公司的做法。”有没有这样的例子：“这是这家公司带来的东西，这家公司的人认为我们应该这样做，我们尝试了一下，但没有成功？”

Melanie Perkins: I won't go into specific examples, but so many times over.

Melanie Perkins：我不会讲具体的例子，但我会讲很多次。

And I think that, I mean maybe that's probably, in answer your other question, we did things our way because that was the only way we knew.

我认为，我的意思是，也许，在回答你的另一个问题时，我们按照自己的方式做事，因为这是我们知道的唯一方式。

And there was many, many times over the years that we didn't have confidence in the way we were doing things and we were like, "Oh, they've done it from a big company that's bigger than our company.

多年来，我们有很多次对自己做事的方式没有信心，我们会想，“哦，他们是在一家比我们公司更大的大公司做的。

Let's go do that." And that hasn't always worked out so well for us.

我们去做吧。”但这对我们来说并不总是那么有效。

And so yeah, I think confidence in how we take what is authentic to us and do it at the next level of scale is a constant work in progress.

所以，是的，我认为对我们如何采取对我们来说真实的东西并在下一个规模上做到这一点的信心是一项持续不断的工作。

It feels like, as I was saying before, systems break and need to be reinvented but also reimagined for that next layer of scale rather than going to try to get something off the shelf from another company.

正如我之前所说，感觉就像系统崩溃了，需要重新发明，但也需要重新构想下一层规模，而不是试图从另一家公司购买现成的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine it also helped that you were in Australia away from the Bay Area and where all these other big companies are at, just being able to do it your own way.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想这对你在澳大利亚远离湾区以及所有其他大公司所在的地方也有帮助，只是能够按照你自己的方式去做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did you know that I have a whole team that helps me with my podcast and with my newsletter?

Lenny Rachitsky：您知道我有一个完整的团队帮助我制作播客和时事通讯吗？

I want everyone on that team to be super happy and thrive in the roles.

我希望团队中的每个人都超级快乐并在角色中茁壮成长。

JustWorks knows that your employees are more than just your employees, they're your people.

JustWorks 知道您的员工不仅仅是您的员工，他们还是您的员工。

My team is spread out across Colorado, Australia, Nepal, West Africa and San Francisco.

我的团队分布在科罗拉多州、澳大利亚、尼泊尔、西非和旧金山。

My life would be so incredibly complicated to hire people internationally to pay people on time and in their local currencies and to answer their HR questions 24/7.

我的生活将变得极其复杂，要在全球范围内雇用人员并以当地货币按时支付工资并全天候（24/7）回答他们的人力资源问题。

But with JustWorks, it's super easy whether you're setting up your own automated payroll, offering premium benefits or hiring internationally.

但有了 JustWorks，无论您是要设置自己的自动工资单、提供优质福利还是在全球范围内招聘，都变得非常简单。

JustWorks offer simple software and 24 7 human support from small business experts for you and your people.

JustWorks 为您和您的员工提供简单的软件和来自小型企业专家的 24 小时 7 小时人工支持。

They do your human resources so that you can do right by your people, JustWorks, for your people.

他们负责您的人力资源，以便您能够为您的员工做正确的事，JustWorks，为您的员工。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that is a good example of how you did something pretty different from how other companies operate?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有什么可以作为一个很好的例子来说明你们的做法与其他公司的运作方式截然不同？

Anything else that comes to mind as a fun example?

还有什么其他有趣的例子吗？

Melanie Perkins: The goal driven structure, I think the things that we were talking about before.

Melanie Perkins：目标驱动结构，我想我们之前讨论过的事情。

So the mission, actually breaking that down into the mission pillars, breaking those mission pillars down into the goals that we're then pursuing and then celebrating those goals when we do achieve them, I think is a deeply underloved way of building a company.

因此，使命实际上将其分解为使命支柱，将这些使命支柱分解为我们随后追求的目标，然后在实现这些目标时庆祝这些目标，我认为这是一种深受人们喜爱的创建公司的方式。

Often people have a mission that's kind of on the wall somewhere and then what they're actually doing and the way they actually make money and the way people actually spend their time is in a very, very different direction from that original mission.

通常人们都有一个挂在墙上的使命，然后他们实际在做什么、他们实际赚钱的方式以及人们实际花费时间的方式都与最初的使命非常非常不同。

And I think the magic is when you can bring those two things together and so you can have your mission, you can have your mission pillars that actually are helping to achieve that.

我认为神奇之处在于，当你能够将这两件事结合在一起时，你就可以完成自己的使命，你可以拥有真正有助于实现这一目标的使命支柱。

And I think there's a real authenticity in that for customers as well, is that you are actually doing the thing that you promised you do, and it all ladders up together.

我认为对于客户来说，这也是一种真正的真实性，那就是你实际上正在做你承诺过的事情，而且这一切都是一起逐步提升的。

It's certainly not an easy way to run a company, but I think that when you do get that formula, I think that there's a lot of authenticity with what you're saying you're doing, you're actually doing.

这当然不是一种管理公司的简单方法，但我认为，当你确实得到这个公式时，我认为你所说的、你正在做的、你实际上正在做的事情有很多真实性。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到这个话题。

That's a whole really cool process.

这是一个非常酷的过程。

Do you have with closing the loop with customers, but something else I want to talk about while we're in this topic of growth over time.

您是否希望与客户建立闭环，但当我们讨论随着时间的推移而增长的话题时，我想谈谈其他一些事情。

I saw you post something about how you had to realize they had to slow down and not just work, work, work like crazy.

我看到你发布了一些关于你如何必须意识到他们必须放慢速度而不仅仅是工作、工作、疯狂工作的内容。

Talk about just that realization and why that ended up being so valuable.

谈谈这种认识以及为什么它最终如此有价值。

Melanie Perkins: So in the early days, I would just work seven days a week round the clock.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：所以在早期，我每周工作 7 天，全天候工作。

In our very first company, we actually had printing presses because we were printing the yearbooks in my mom's house and then delivering them to schools around Australia.

在我们的第一家公司中，我们实际上拥有印刷机，因为我们在我妈妈的家里印刷年鉴，然后将它们运送到澳大利亚各地的学校。

And in the early days of Canva, we certainly were working all weekend, all hours of the day.

在 Canva 的早期，我们当然整个周末、全天都在工作。

It was just constant.

它只是恒定的。

But when you've been doing this for a while, if you just keep working at that pace, I don't think it's good for anyone's health, mental health or anything else.

但当你这样做了一段时间后，如果你继续以这样的速度工作，我认为这对任何人的健康、心理健康或其他任何方面都没有好处。

So I think finding ways to continue, I still work extraordinarily hard, but to continue to have that balance in my day to day where I actually go to sleep, I find time to do things like going for walks or doing yoga, journaling I find extraordinarily helpful to make sure that I can always bring my best to everything that I'm doing.

所以我想找到继续下去的方法，我仍然非常努力地工作，但为了继续在日常生活中保持平衡，我实际上去睡觉，我找到时间做一些事情，比如散步或做瑜伽，我发现写日记非常有帮助，以确保我总是能尽我最大的努力去做我正在做的每件事。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's easy to say that kind of stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：说这种话很容易。

It must be really hard to actually make time for that thing.

确实很难腾出时间来做那件事。

Is there anything for those sorts of things, is there anything that you do that allows you to actually protect that time to actually do these things?

对于这类事情，有什么办法吗？您所做的事情是否可以让您真正保护时间来实际做这些事情？

Because as you said, there's a billion things that are just looking for your attention constantly.

因为正如你所说，有十亿件​​事正在不断地寻求你的关注。

Melanie Perkins: I feel like I've developed some healthy habits over the years.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我觉得这些年来我已经养成了一些健康的习惯。

I don't have emails on my phone and so when I shut my laptop, I actually tune out and then if there's a real issue, I'll get an emergency call or page.

我的手机上没有电子邮件，所以当我关闭笔记本电脑时，我实际上会调出音量，然后如果出现真正的问题，我会接到紧急电话或寻呼。

But I think trying to delineate I think is really important.

但我认为尝试界定我认为非常重要。

So when I'm working, I'm all in and then when I'm not working, I'm all out.

所以当我工作的时候，我会全力以赴，当我不工作的时候，我会全力以赴。

And actually giving that mental space I think is really important.

我认为实际上给予这种心理空间非常重要。

I've spoken to a lot of founders that haven't quite found that and then do struggle with it.

我和很多创始人交谈过，他们还没有完全发现这一点，然后又为此苦苦挣扎。

So when they're working every weekend it feels like the right thing, but then sometimes you can miss the forest from the trees when you're just working harder and harder, but maybe you're actually working on the wrong thing.

因此，当他们每个周末都工作时，感觉像是正确的事情，但有时，当你越来越努力地工作时，你可能会只见树木不见森林，但也许你实际上在做错误的事情。

And so I think being able to step away a little just to be able to get perspective is actually really beneficial.

所以我认为能够稍微离开一点以获得观点实际上是非常有益的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to this closing the loop process.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到这个闭环过程。

Let's say that you have where you figure out what to build.

假设您已经弄清楚要构建什么。

A lot of your ideas come actually from the community.

你的很多想法实际上都来自社区。

Talk about just that process and how many of your ideas actually came from your community.

只谈论这个过程以及您有多少想法实际上来自您的社区。

Melanie Perkins: Oh, it's one of my favorite things.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：哦，这是我最喜欢的事情之一。

We've been doing it for years now, and so we get more than a million requests from our community every year and we've got a whole incredible team that then tallies them, breaks them down, and then delivers them to all of our product teams and then those actually get closed.

我们已经这样做很多年了，所以我们每年都会收到来自社区的超过一百万个请求，我们有一个令人难以置信的团队，然后对它们进行统计、分解，然后将它们交付给我们所有的产品团队，然后这些请求实际上就被关闭了。

So this year we've closed more than 200 loops, but we know that each one of those things is going to be loved and needed by so many more people that don't bother to actually fill out the request form.

因此，今年我们已经关闭了 200 多个循环，但我们知道其中的每一项都将被更多的人所喜爱和需要，而这些人甚至懒得去实际填写申请表。

So many things from gradient text, like little things like gradient text to really big things like our Sheets product.

从渐变文本之类的小东西到像我们的表格产品这样的大东西，有很多东西。

There's just been countless products.

有无数的产品。

In the early days with our AI products, we didn't release them to teachers because we knew there was a lot of hesitancy for teachers using AI in the classroom.

在我们的人工智能产品的早期，我们没有向教师发布它们，因为我们知道教师在课堂上使用人工智能有很多犹豫。

Melanie Perkins: And we got so many requests from teachers saying, "Can I please use this MagicWrite in the classroom?" And so with them we unlocked that and put on safety controls for teachers.

Melanie Perkins：我们收到了很多老师的请求，他们说：“我可以在课堂上使用这个 MagicWrite 吗？”因此，我们通过他们解锁了这一点，并为教师实施了安全控制。

And so it's just constant, actually.

事实上，它是恒定的。

It's just part of our product process.

这只是我们产品流程的一部分。

I think there's two parts to product.

我认为产品有两个部分。

One is building the future and towards the mission and the mission pillars as I was saying before.

正如我之前所说，一是建设未来，朝着使命和使命支柱迈进。

And the other is actually listening to our community and building what they want.

另一个是实际上倾听我们社区的意见并构建他们想要的东西。

And so I think that that's the two core pieces of product in my mind.

所以我认为这是我心目中产品的两个核心部分。

And the closing the loop comes in so many different forms.

闭环有多种不同的形式。

There's the explicit asks, and then the other thing that we double down on all the time is user testing and watching people use it.

有明确的要求，然后我们一直加倍努力的另一件事是用户测试和观察人们使用它。

And if people hesitate clicking a button or people don't quite understand how something works, it's amazing to me how you can find 10 random people on the internet and they can give such astute feedback that then is so representative for such a large number of people.

如果人们在点击按钮时犹豫不决，或者不太明白某件事是如何工作的，我会惊讶地发现你可以在互联网上随机找到 10 个人，他们可以给出如此精明的反馈，而这些反馈对于如此多的人来说具有代表性。

I've personally run hundreds if not thousands of user tests myself and it's been deeply embedded in our product teams also.

我亲自运行了数百甚至数千个用户测试，并且它也深深地嵌入到我们的产品团队中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that must be really stressful for someone looking at a test of Canva, trying to try something when you're in the room.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，对于那些在房间里观看 Canva 测试并尝试尝试某些东西的人来说，这一定是非常有压力的。

Melanie Perkins: It's actually, we do it all online actually.

Melanie Perkins：实际上，我们实际上都是在网上完成的。

I mean the ones I've run are typically online.

我的意思是我运行的通常是在线的。

So people are so much more frank I think when it's just them and their camera and they don't really...

所以我认为，当只有他们和他们的相机时，人们会更加坦率，而他们并不真的......

Yeah, they tell you really how it is.

是的，他们确实告诉你事情是怎样的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a tool or a kind of a process there that you find really helpful?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为有没有一种工具或一种流程真正有帮助？

I don't know if you want to name names of products or anything like that, but it's something that you find helpful or useful.

我不知道您是否想说出产品名称或类似名称，但您认为这是有帮助或有用的。

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, we use a lot of UserTesting.com, find that super valuable.

Melanie Perkins：是的，我们使用了很多 UserTesting.com，发现它非常有价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right, go user testing.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，进行用户测试。

Okay.

好的。

Something else that I know is really important to you and also really unique to Canva is something that's called the two-step plan.

据我所知，还有一点对您来说非常重要，而且对 Canva 来说也非常独特，那就是所谓的两步计划。

You mentioned this earlier, I want to definitely talk about this.

你刚才提到了这一点，我肯定想谈谈这一点。

What is the two-step plan?

什么是两步走计划？

Why is this so important to you?

为什么这对您如此重要？

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, so when you were asking about Crazy Big Goals, I think this is our most macro, most crazy biggest goal.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：是的，所以当你问到“疯狂的大目标”时，我认为这是我们最宏观、最疯狂的最大目标。

Step one, build one of the world's most valuable companies and step two, do the most good we can do.

第一步，建立世界上最有价值的公司之一，第二步，尽我们所能。

And in our early days I thought I'd do step one and then step two and realize that actually step one can fuel step two and step two can fuel step one.

在我们早期，我以为我会执行第一步，然后执行第二步，并意识到实际上第一步可以推动第二步，第二步可以推动第一步。

And so that's been a really big part of Canva for some years now.

因此，多年来，这一直是 Canva 的重要组成部分。

In the early days we took the 1% pledge, which I think is an incredible program.

早期我们做出了1%的承诺，我认为这是一个令人难以置信的计划。

Every single person, every single company should take that where you give 1% of time, money, equity and profitability.

每个人、每个公司都应该付出 1% 的时间、金钱、股权和盈利能力。

And I think that's a really easy thing to do in the early days that then can compound greatly over time.

我认为这在早期是一件非常容易做的事情，随着时间的推移，它会变得更加复杂。

We also knew that Canva's equity was obviously going to be a really key part of it.

我们还知道 Canva 的股权显然将成为其中真正的关键部分。

Melanie Perkins: So Cliff and I owned a little over 30% of Canva, and so we decided we were going to take 30% of Canva and use it to do the most good we can do.

Melanie Perkins：Cliff 和我拥有 Canva 30% 多一点的股份，所以我们决定持有 Canva 30% 的股份，并用它来做我们能做的最大的好事。

And we are doing that.

我们正在这样做。

So we're doing all of our donating through the Canva Foundation.

所以我们所有的捐款都是通过 Canva 基金会进行的。

We've just, over the last few years, we've donated $50 million to GiveDirectly, where they give money directly to people in Malawi who are in extreme poverty and then they can use that money on their family to go to school, to get healthcare, to start small businesses, to get a roof so they can sleep in without being wet.

在过去的几年里，我们向 GiveDirectly 捐赠了 5000 万美元，他们直接向马拉维的赤贫者捐款，然后他们可以用这笔钱让家人上学、获得医疗保健、开办小企业、购买屋顶，这样他们就可以睡个懒觉。

Just real truly basic human needs things.

只是真正的人类基本需求的东西。

And we've just announced that we're going to be giving another a hundred million dollars over the next four years to people in extreme poverty.

我们刚刚宣布，我们将在未来四年内向极端贫困人口再捐赠一亿美元。

And it's just like when you go and sit with people and you hear about how they're spending, what's very microscopic amount at $550 doesn't buy us that much, but it's a life-changing amount of money for people in extreme poverty and it's truly transformational what it can do.

就像当你去和人们坐在一起，听听他们如何消费时，550 美元这个微不足道的金额并不能给我们带来多大的好处，但对于极端贫困的人来说，这是一笔改变生活的钱，它能带来真正的变革。

Melanie Perkins: And you meet people and you hear their stories and it's truly the best money I could ever imagine spending.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：你会遇到人们，听到他们的故事，这确实是我能想象到的最好的钱。

And that crazy big dream I was mentioning earlier of everyone having basic human needs met, it's so completely insane that isn't the case today.

我之前提到的那个疯狂的大梦想是每个人的基本人类需求都得到满足，这太疯狂了，但今天的情况并非如此。

There's no specific reason why people don't have their basic human needs met on our planet, but we just haven't got to act together as humanity.

没有什么具体原因可以解释为什么我们的星球上的人们的基本人类需求没有得到满足，但我们只是没有像人类一样共同行动。

And so that is a truly crazy, big dream.

所以这是一个真正疯狂的、伟大的梦想。

But back to the two-step plan.

但回到两步计划。

Step one, build one of the world's most valuable companies and step two do the most good we can do.

第一步，建立世界上最有价值的公司之一，第二步，尽我们所能。

And finding ways to do that at the same time I think is extraordinarily important.

我认为同时找到实现这一目标的方法非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太不可思议了。

It makes me think about, not to mention Elon again, but Elon's three-step strategy plan and it's like build better cars versus this is like, "Okay, solve all the problems of the world and make the world a better place." What a better master plan to compare.

这让我想到，更不用说再次提到埃隆了，而是埃隆的三步战略计划，就像制造更好的汽车，而不是“好吧，解决世界上所有的问题，让世界变得更美好。”相比之下，这是一个更好的总体规划。

Something else about this that I love is a lot of companies have this, have something philanthropic going on with the company and it's like sitting in a doc on some page.

我喜欢的另一件事是很多公司都有这样的事情，公司正在进行一些慈善活动，就像坐在文档的某个页面上一样。

It's part of their mission.

这是他们使命的一部分。

It's not actually that big of a deal to them.

其实这对他们来说并不是什么大不了的事。

What I hear from folks at Canva is something you talk about all the time.

我从 Canva 员工那里听到的都是你们一直在谈论的事情。

This is an actually core part of how you work and think and how you set goals and set vision and missions.

这实际上是你如何工作和思考以及如何设定目标、愿景和使命的核心部分。

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, I'm happy to hear that.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：是的，我很高兴听到这个消息。

I wouldn't do Canva if it wasn't going to have a positive impact on the world.

如果 Canva 不能对世界产生积极影响，我就不会做它。

For me, getting really rich is not a goal unto itself whatsoever.

对我来说，变得真正富有本身并不是一个目标。

It's a means to an end and I've been very blessed to be able to do some work and that creates wealth that can then go and have people's basic human needs met.

这是达到目的的一种手段，我很幸运能够做一些工作，创造财富，然后可以满足人们的基本人类需求。

But they're working just as hard, but they don't have the opportunity.

但他们同样努力工作，但他们没有机会。

And even our education product, it's now used by a hundred million people each month and we are in most school districts and rolled out across countries and being able to bring quality education tools to every, and we give that away for free as well.

甚至我们的教育产品，现在每个月都有一亿人使用，我们在大多数学区，并在各个国家推广，能够为每个人带来优质的教育工具，而且我们也是免费提供的。

Being able to help empower schools all around the world and we're going to be doubling down and doubling down into that product to bring quality education to all.

能够帮助世界各地的学校增强能力，我们将加倍努力开发该产品，为所有人带来优质教育。

I think it gives so much more meaning behind work.

我认为它赋予了工作更多的意义。

We've also, between our education product and our non-profit program where we also give away our paid product for free, we are giving away 1.5 billion of product a year now.

我们还提供教育产品和免费赠送付费产品的非营利计划，现在每年赠送 15 亿件产品。

And so the impact that that can have and the ripple effect of that I think is pretty great.

因此，我认为这可能产生的影响和连锁反应非常大。

And I think for all of us, it gives a lot more meaning to our work than, "Get Rich."

我认为对于我们所有人来说，它赋予我们的工作比“致富”更有意义的意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So speaking of product, coming back to that, you guys are launching something, maybe you've already launched it by the time this comes out, what I heard described as the biggest launching canvas history, no big deal, that's a high bar.

说到产品，回到这个话题，你们正在推出一些东西，也许在它发布的时候你们已经推出了它，我听说这是历史上最大的推出画布，没什么大不了的，这是一个很高的标准。

Considering all the things you guys have launched, what are you launching?

考虑到你们推出的所有产品，你们要推出什么？

Why is it such a big deal?

为什么这么重要？

Melanie Perkins: We are extraordinarily excited about what we are launching.

Melanie Perkins：我们对我们即将推出的产品感到非常兴奋。

I guess the whole mission of Canva is to empower the world to design.

我想 Canva 的全部使命就是让世界能够进行设计。

And so what has been enabled by new technology with all of AI has been just really profound.

因此，新技术与人工智能所带来的影响是非常深远的。

Enabling people to take their idea and turn it into design a design and have as little friction between those two points.

使人们能够将他们的想法转化为设计方案，并且这两点之间的摩擦尽可能小。

So we are doubling down radically on our video product and bring some incredible capabilities to our mobile and desktop platform.

因此，我们从根本上加倍努力开发我们的视频产品，并为我们的移动和桌面平台带来一些令人难以置信的功能。

We are launching email, which has been one of our most hotly requested features from enterprise customers around the world and business customers around the world who want to be able to design with Canva's drag and drop ease and to be able to create an email.

我们正在推出电子邮件，这是世界各地企业客户和世界各地希望能够利用 Canva 的拖放功能进行设计并能够创建电子邮件的企业客户最强烈要求的功能之一。

We are launching forms, we are launching, probably one of the most exciting things is the way we're embedding AI across the entire product suite.

我们正在推出表单，我们正在推出，可能最令人兴奋的事情之一就是我们将人工智能嵌入整个产品套件的方式。

Melanie Perkins: And so you can actually use AI to design a presentation, a video, a email, a website.

Melanie Perkins：所以你实际上可以使用人工智能来设计演示文稿、视频、电子邮件、网站。

All of these things can actually now be done inside the core editor, inside the design tab, which is used by 170.

所有这些事情现在实际上都可以在核心编辑器、设计选项卡内完成，该选项卡由 170 使用。

It's used 170 million times a month.

每月使用次数为 1.7 亿次。

And then on our elements tab, which is used 900 million times a month, we are also embedding AI.

然后在我们每月使用 9 亿次的元素选项卡上，我们也嵌入了人工智能。

So you can actually generate a video, you can generate a canvas code and you can generate photos all directly inside that platform.

因此，您实际上可以直接在该平台内生成视频、画布代码、生成照片。

And then we're also launching comments as lots of our customers use Canvas to comment and collaborate.

然后，我们还推出了评论功能，因为我们的许多客户都使用 Canvas 进行评论和协作。

And now you can actually just tag at Canvas and you can collaborate.

现在您实际上只需在 Canvas 上添加标签即可进行协作。

You can just say, "Hey, can you make this title shorter?

你可以直接说：“嘿，你能把这个标题缩短一点吗？

Can you do this?

你能做到吗？

Can you do that?" And it has all of the context of the design so in situ, you can actually just have a collaborator that can help get your work done.

你能做到吗？”它具有设计的所有背景，因此您实际上可以拥有一个可以帮助您完成工作的协作者。

So we are pretty excited about all of this.

所以我们对这一切感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Something I'm going to just let people know, I don't know if people know all this, how many products you all have now.

我只是想让人们知道一些事情，我不知道人们是否知道这一切，你们现在有多少产品。

I think a lot of people think of Canva as a design graphics for social media and marketing and things like that, but you also have spreadsheets, docs, whiteboards, charts, code, AI coding tool.

我认为很多人认为 Canva 是社交媒体和营销等的设计图形，但你也有电子表格、文档、白板、图表、代码、人工智能编码工具。

And now what I'm hearing is email forums.

现在我听到的是电子邮件论坛。

There's probably a few other things I'm not thinking -

可能还有一些我没有想到的事情 -

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, truly design anything.

Melanie Perkins：是的，真正设计任何东西。

We're literally living up to that.

我们确实做到了这一点。

Melanie Perkins: 100 million people design a presentation in Canva each month now and it's pretty fascinating to see that when you speak to, I saw a tweet some time ago.

Melanie Perkins：现在每个月有 1 亿人在 Canva 上设计演示文稿，当你与我交谈时，我前段时间看到了一条推文，这真是太有趣了。

They were talking about how it's a generational thing that a certain generation uses Microsoft, a certain generation uses Google.

他们谈论的是，某一代人使用微软，某一代人使用谷歌，这是一个代际的事情。

Gen Z, the way they design a presentation is in Canva, but it's not just generational for those with other generational ilk, but it is been fascinating to see that come to life.

Z 世代，他们设计演示文稿的方式是在 Canva 中，但这不仅对其他世代的人来说是世代相传的，但看到它变成现实真是令人着迷。

Lenny Rachitsky: The email product, is that like a email client product or It's a design emails that you can then send through your products?

Lenny Rachitsky：电子邮件产品是电子邮件客户端产品还是可以通过产品发送的设计电子邮件？

Melanie Perkins: It is design emails, so you can design email, then you can take that code and you can pop it into any email platform that you use.

Melanie Perkins：这是设计电子邮件，所以你可以设计电子邮件，然后你可以获取该代码，然后将其弹出到你使用的任何电子邮件平台中。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you think about products you're going to expand to, I know there's trade secrets here.

Lenny Rachitsky：您如何看待您要扩展的产品，我知道这里有商业秘密。

You don't want to tell everyone where you're going next, but just how do you approach, here's where we're going next.

你不想告诉每个人你下一步要去哪里，但只是你如何接近，这就是我们下一步要去的地方。

Melanie Perkins: So our mission, empower world design, empower everyone to design anything with every ingredient in every language on every device, and just take those things very literally.

Melanie Perkins：所以我们的使命是赋能世界设计，赋能每个人在每台设备上用每种语言、每种成分设计任何东西，并从字面上理解这些东西。

So to literally design anything, to literally publish anywhere.

因此，真正设计任何东西，真正在任何地方发布。

And so we now print in 50 something countries around the world and you can get it printed and delivered to your house.

因此，我们现在在全球 50 多个国家/地区进行印刷，您可以将其印刷并送货上门。

And we plant it.

我们种植它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I actually did that, while you're on it.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你在做的时候，我确实这么做了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wasn't planning this, but I had a print thing delivered to my house.

Lenny Rachitsky：我没有计划这样做，但我有一份印刷品送到了我家。

It's so cool.

太酷了。

Lenny Rachitsky: We have to go to a print shop in this freaking graphic and well here's a button.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们必须去打印店打印这张奇怪的图形，这里有一个按钮。

Let's click that.

让我们点击它。

Melanie Perkins: Exactly.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：没错。

Just click print and it pops up beautifully packaged to your door.

只需点击“打印”，它就会弹出，包装精美，送到您家门口。

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know how that works.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道这是如何运作的。

Yeah, I don't know how you did that, but it worked.

是的，我不知道你是怎么做到的，但它确实有效。

How cool.

多酷啊。

Melanie Perkins: But it's very cool.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：但这非常酷。

And so yeah, I guess literally bring these things to life.

所以，是的，我想确实让这些东西变得栩栩如生。

Oh, we're like launching 3D as well.

哦，我们也想推出 3D。

So all of these things we will be bringing to life literally.

因此，我们将把所有这些事情真正变为现实。

And just picking off what is the most strategically important next thing to enable everyone to design anything, to enable everyone to publish anywhere.

只需挑选出战略上最重要的下一步，让每个人都能设计任何东西，让每个人都能在任何地方发布。

And we have been doing that for a decade and we'll continue to do that forever more using the latest technology to truly bring people's ideas to life.

我们已经这样做了十年，并且我们将继续这样做，更多地使用最新技术，真正将人们的想法变为现实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so this is helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这很有帮助。

So if someone's like, "Oh, will Canva come for my space?" Are people designing thing that was design and also, what was it?

因此，如果有人问，“哦，Canva 会来占用我的空间吗？”人们正在设计的东西就是设计，那是什么？

Publish?

发布？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Publishing and designing.

出版和设计。

Okay.

好的。

So if you're doing any designing or publishing, watch out.

因此，如果您正在进行任何设计或出版，请小心。

Melanie Perkins: From a macro perspective, there was creativity tools and productivity tools.

Melanie Perkins：从宏观角度来看，有创造力工具和生产力工具。

And what Canva really does is we're literally smack bang in the middle of that Venn diagram of creativity and productivity, rather than making our customers have to make a choice between those two suites.

Canva 真正所做的是，我们确实处于创造力和生产力维恩图的中间，而不是让我们的客户必须在这两个套件之间做出选择。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something I wasn't planning on asking about, but I think it's on everyone's minds.

Lenny Rachitsky：我本来没有打算问这个问题，但我认为每个人都在想这个问题。

There's always this Figma and Adobe and then there's Canva and there's kind of a bunch of places we could go with this.

总是有 Figma 和 Adob​​e，还有 Canva，还有很多我们可以使用它的地方。

One is just at the beginning of the journey where a lot of founders try to figure out their wedge and their specific niche.

一是在旅程的开始阶段，许多创始人试图找出他们的楔子和特定的利基市场。

Just how did you think about that?

你是怎么想到这一点的？

"Here's how we might have a chance to..." I know Figma wasn't even around back then, I don't think.

“这就是我们可能有机会……”我知道当时 Figma 还没有出现，我不这么认为。

Just how did you approach your early wedge of users?

您是如何吸引早期用户的？

Melanie Perkins: One of the most important things that we did was we didn't really worry about competitors at all.

Melanie Perkins：我们所做的最重要的事情之一是我们根本不担心竞争对手。

We actually just saw where is there a gap in the market that we can uniquely fill, and what can we solve a problem, a core problem that people currently have today?

我们实际上只是看到市场上有哪些空白是我们可以独特地填补的，以及我们可以解决什么问题，即人们目前面临的核心问题？

And so with our first company that was yearbooks in Australia and there wasn't great tools and these yearbook coordinators got thrown in to have to design something and they'd have no design experience.

因此，我们在澳大利亚的第一家年鉴公司没有很好的工具，这些年鉴协调员被迫设计一些东西，但他们没有设计经验。

And we spoke to every single customer.

我们与每一位客户进行了交谈。

We gave them an over the phone tutorial, we understood all of their pain points, we got continuous customer feedback, and then we tried to iterate and improve.

我们通过电话为他们提供了教程，我们了解他们的所有痛点，我们获得了持续的客户反馈，然后我们尝试迭代和改进。

Melanie Perkins: And then when we were thinking about Canva, a few years into that, actually one of the schools said, "I love this product so much.

Melanie Perkins：几年后，当我们考虑 Canva 时，实际上其中一所学校说：“我非常喜欢这个产品。

Can I use it to design newsletters?" And they had all sorts of other things that they wanted to use it for, and we kind of looked around and were like, "Oh, there's still nothing on the market." This was a few years into it, that actually does the thing that we're doing, but for all these other things.

我可以用它来设计时事通讯吗？”他们还想用它来做各种各样的其他事情，我们环顾四周，然后想，“哦，市场上仍然没有任何东西。”这已经是几年前的事情了，它实际上完成了我们正在做的事情，但对于所有其他事情。

And so it was much more like where is the gap in the market that people are currently having a pain point?

所以这更像是人们目前遇到的痛点市场差距在哪里？

And if you can solve that pain point really well and solve it in such a way that people actually want to pay for it because it is truly solving a real pain point that they have, I think that kind of sets it up for success rather than be a problem or a solution looking for a problem.

如果你能很好地解决这个痛点，并以人们真正愿意付费的方式解决它，因为它真正解决了他们真正的痛点，我认为这会为成功做好准备，而不是成为一个问题或寻找问题的解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing there is you didn't overthink, "Here's my CP, here's the wedge and the strategy of how we expand into this large thing." It's like, "Here's people with a problem that hasn't been solved in years that we keep seeing.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，你没有想太多，“这是我的 CP，这是我们如何扩展到这个大项目的楔子和策略。”就像是，“这些人面临着我们多年来一直没有解决的问题。

Let's try to solve it."

让我们尝试解决它。”

Melanie Perkins: Exactly that.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：正是如此。

And if you take that problem centered approach that helps people to achieve something they actually want to do in the real life, you're probably going to be at a reasonably good spot, especially if it maps to a larger market.

如果你采取以问题为中心的方法来帮助人们实现他们在现实生活中真正想做的事情，那么你可能会处于一个相当好的位置，特别是如果它映射到更大的市场。

That's a particularly great thing.

这是一件特别伟大的事情。

If it only solves one person's problem, that might not be a great company going forward.

如果它只能解决一个人的问题，那么这可能不是一家伟大的公司。

But if a few people have that same problem...

但如果有几个人有同样的问题......

But I think that again, back to that big ladder and that first rung, I think it's better to solve a small number of people's problem really well than trying to solve a large number of people's problem.

但我再次认为，回到那个大梯子和第一级，我认为真正解决少数人的问题比试图解决大量人的问题更好。

Not very well at all.

一点也不好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something I can't not ask about is just how you think about AI in your product.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不能不问的是您如何看待产品中的人工智能。

You mentioned how you integrated or all through the product, just you guys are doing really good stuff with AI.

你提到了如何集成或整个产品，只是你们在人工智能方面做了非常好的事情。

A lot of companies are struggling to find something really that works great.

许多公司都在努力寻找真正有效的东西。

Do you have just a philosophy of, "Here's how we integrate AI into Canva," where it ends up being really helpful and people love it?

您是否有这样的理念：“这就是我们如何将 AI 集成到 Canva 中”，最终它会变得非常有帮助并且人们喜欢它？

Melanie Perkins: Your question is actually the answer at the same time.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：你的问题实际上同时也是答案。

I think being able to integrate it into the product where it actually helps people to get their work done where it genuinely helps them to achieve their goals, and then being really open to listening to your community and hearing what they're loving, what they're struggling with and refining from there I think is really, really important.

我认为能够将其集成到产品中，它实际上可以帮助人们完成工作，真正帮助他们实现他们的目标，然后真正开放地倾听社区的声音，听到他们所喜欢的东西，他们正在挣扎的东西，并从中进行改进，我认为非常非常重要。

Just because AI is all the rage and investors really like AI doesn't necessarily mean it should be front and center, but if it can genuinely help your customers to achieve their goals.

仅仅因为人工智能风靡一时并且投资者真正喜欢人工智能并不一定意味着它应该成为前沿和中心，但如果它能够真正帮助您的客户实现他们的目标。

So the thing that I was mentioning before, enabling people to communicate their ideas and have little friction between those two points, AI is just kind of naturally a very critical part of that equation for us.

因此，我之前提到的，让人们能够交流他们的想法，并且这两点之间几乎没有摩擦，人工智能对我们来说自然是这个方程式中非常关键的一部分。

In fact, it was funny looking back from really old decks.

事实上，从非常古老的甲板上回顾过去是很有趣的。

We were trying to do AI before AI was actually a thing because it really was critical to what we were trying to do even in our 2012 deck.

在人工智能真正成为现实之前，我们就尝试做人工智能，因为即使在 2012 年的套牌中，它对于我们想要做的事情也确实至关重要。

You can kind of imagine how AI very much fit into the equation because of exactly what we're trying to do.

你可以想象人工智能如何非常适合这个等式，因为这正是我们正在努力做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to keep us on the AI thread and take us to AI Corner, which is a recurring segment on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我会让我们继续关注人工智能话题，并带我们去人工智能角，这是这个播客中反复出现的部分。

So here's the question: what's a way you've found in your personal life and work life to use AI where it ends up being really helpful, something really interesting that people might find useful?

那么问题来了：您在个人生活和工作生活中发现了一种使用人工智能的方式，它最终会变得非常有帮助，是人们可能会觉得有用的真正有趣的东西？

Melanie Perkins: So many things.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：很多事情。

So AI is often the first.

所以人工智能往往是第一位的。

If I'm having an idea, it'll be a first place that I go and explore the idea.

如果我有一个想法，这将是我去探索这个想法的第一个地方。

And now with Canva, and you can just tag Canva, I can say, "Give me more ideas of this," and it's shockingly great because it has all of the context from the design.

现在有了 Canva，你只需标记 Canva，我就可以说，“给我更多关于这个的想法”，它非常棒，因为它拥有设计中的所有背景。

It's actually integrated deeply into your workflow.

它实际上已深入集成到您的工作流程中。

Another really fun thing I do is an AI walk and it's when I just put my ear pods in and then I go for a walk and I just say everything on my mind and I use that to then kind of filter out my thoughts and figure out what are the things I need to action.

我做的另一件非常有趣的事情是人工智能散步，当我戴上耳机然后去散步时，我只是说出我想到的一切，然后我用它来过滤我的想法并找出我需要采取行动的事情。

And it kind of helps again, get out of the weeds and think about things from a more macro perspective rather than from the things that might be in my Slack messages or in my email.

这又有点帮助，摆脱困境，从更宏观的角度思考事情，而不是从我的 Slack 消息或电子邮件中可能存在的事情出发。

It just gives you that sort of helpful vantage point I find.

它只是为您提供了我发现的那种有用的有利位置。

So yeah, so many things.

是的，很多事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: For the Voice Note tool, is there a tool that you find useful for that?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于语音笔记工具，您认为有什么有用的工具吗？

Melanie Perkins: Yeah, I might use Apple Notes or directly into Canva Docs, and then I actually just do the brain dump into Canva Docs and then just summarize them.

Melanie Perkins：是的，我可能会使用 Apple Notes 或直接进入 Canva Docs，然后我实际上只是将大脑转储到 Canva Docs 中，然后总结它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

And so you just use native microphone-

所以你只需使用原生麦克风 -

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

dictation sort of thing.

听写之类的东西。

Nothing fancy?

没有什么花哨的吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminded me of, you mentioned earlier in our conversation you had this vision board that you said is for 2050.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，您之前在我们的谈话中提到您有一个 2050 年的愿景板。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you share something from that vision board?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能分享一下愿景板上的一些内容吗？

Melanie Perkins: I'll tell you why the vision board came about because it's only been in recent months.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：我会告诉你为什么会出现愿景板，因为它是最近几个月才出现的。

I did feel like as humanity, we are on a bit of a freight train and that freight training is, I think if we take a lot of visions for a lot of different companies and a lot of things that are happening and you just fast-forward 50 years or you do 2050 and you say, "Are we in a safer world?

我确实觉得作为人类，我们有点像在货运列车上，货运培训是，我认为如果我们对很多不同的公司和正在发生的很多事情抱有很多愿景，然后你快进 50 年，或者到 2050 年，你会说：“我们处于一个更安全的世界吗？

Is the world the place that we want our kids to grow up in?

这个世界是我们希望孩子成长的地方吗？

Is this the humanity that we want?" I didn't feel that the train that we are headed on always feels great.

这就是我们想要的人性吗？”我并不觉得我们即将乘坐的火车总是感觉很棒。

In fact, it scared me quite greatly for a whole host of reasons.

事实上，由于多种原因，它让我非常害怕。

And so I sat with that feeling for a little and then I kind of got to work on my 2050 walls and back to the chaos to clarity.

所以我带着这种感觉坐了一会儿，然后我就开始在 2050 年的墙上工作，回到混乱的状态，恢复清晰。

Melanie Perkins: The first thing was riding my 2050 wall and I've really been loving, I've got a whole on the 2050 wall, started with a lot of quotes.

Melanie Perkins：第一件事是骑我的 2050 墙，我真的很喜欢，我在 2050 墙上有一个整体，从很多引言开始。

Everything good was once imagined and many other quotes were along those similar lines.

一切美好的事物都曾经是想象出来的，许多其他的名言也都是类似的。

And then rather than just being fearful of the things that I'm worried about for society and for humanity, I started to think what would the alternative be?

然后，我不再只是担心我为社会和人类担心的事情，而是开始思考替代方案是什么？

What is that vision that I would love to see us have basic human needs for all global education being a basic human right that everyone experiences all the really important things that we want as humanity.

我希望看到我们对所有全球教育都有基本的人类需求，这是一项基本人权，让每个人都能体验到我们作为人类想要的所有真正重要的事情。

And again, using vision and using imagination and just dreaming about the future.

再次，运用视觉和想象力，梦想未来。

And I find it really fascinating in my day-to-day by literally having it beside me as I work every day, the little tiny decisions that can kind of help to angle towards that future that we want and can I help will any of that into existence?

我发现它在我的日常生活中真的很有趣，因为我每天工作时都有它在我身边，这些小小的决定可以帮助我们走向我们想要的未来，我可以帮助实现这一切吗？

I honestly don't know.

老实说我不知道​​。

Melanie Perkins: But I feel like just by starting to write it down some little brainstorm exercise with a number of other people and starting to just etch out, how do we get closer and closer to that.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：但我觉得只要开始与其他一些人一起写下一些小小的头脑风暴练习，然后开始蚀刻，我们如何才能越来越接近这一目标。

On my vision of the future, it's community.

在我对未来的愿景中，这是社区。

It's the whole of humanity trying to dream bigger and to dream bigger goals.

整个人类都在努力实现更大的梦想和更大的目标。

And then us actually rising to that occasion in the world.

然后我们实际上就达到了世界上的那个时刻。

We don't want, I think loneliness is rife, purpose is gone.

我们不想，我认为孤独很普遍，目标消失了。

What we teach people in schools is pointless.

我们在学校教给人们的东西毫无意义。

And in my vision for 2050, it's none of those things.

在我对 2050 年的愿景中，这些都不是。

Communities are bound to fall.

社区必然会崩溃。

We all have deep purpose.

我们都有深刻的目标。

And that deep purpose springs from having bigger dreams that we collectively go out and achieve.

这种深刻的目标源于我们共同走出去并实现的更大梦想。

Something that we're doing at our Canva world to a keynote in two weeks time, which I think is going to be after this is released, we've been asking people what is one goal you'd like to see the world achieved in our lifetime?

我们将在两周后在 Canva 世界上做一个主题演讲，我认为这将在发布后进行，我们一直在问人们，您希望看到这个世界在我们有生之年实现的目标是什么？

Melanie Perkins: And then people literally writing it down I think is pretty powerful.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：然后人们把它写下来，我认为这是非常强大的。

And then people sharing that with other people I think is pretty powerful.

然后人们与其他人分享我认为这是非常强大的。

And then us actually figuring out how the hell do we turn?

然后我们真正弄清楚我们到底该如何转变？

That reality that we all deeply desperately want into existence, I think is genuinely one of the biggest questions of our time.

我认为我们所有人都迫切希望实现这一现实，这确实是我们这个时代最大的问题之一。

But then again, rather than trying to tackle that entire thing by yourself, how do you take that first tiny step that starts to see that in your own life, in your own family, in your own community?

但话又说回来，你不应该试图自己解决整个问题，而是如何迈出第一步，开始在你自己的生活、你自己的家庭、你自己的社区中看到这一点？

And I think that's where we'll get purpose from and I think that is one of the key answers to loneliness is actually working towards something bigger than yourself.

我认为这就是我们从中获得目标的地方，我认为孤独的关键答案之一实际上是朝着比自己更伟大的事情努力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I really appreciate you sharing all that.

我真的很感谢你分享这一切。

I was thinking as you're talking, just considering how wildly successful Canva has been and just how ambitious that was when you started.

当你说话时，我正在思考，只是考虑 Canva 取得了多么巨大的成功，以及你开始时的雄心勃勃。

I would not be at all surprised that this actually happens and that you achieve this very difficult vision.

如果这真的发生并且你实现了这个非常困难的愿景，我一点也不感到惊讶。

Melanie Perkins: It's not something that I alone can achieve.

Melanie Perkins：这不是我一个人能够实现的目标。

I think it has to be obviously a global collective effort because there's zero chance I can go and achieve basic human needs for all.

我认为这显然必须是全球集体努力，因为我能够去满足所有人的基本人类需求的机会为零。

But I think that I'd like to change that.

但我想我想改变这一点。

I'd like to help change the mood.

我想帮忙改变一下心情。

I'd like to help change the way we're thinking about things.

我想帮助改变我们思考事物的方式。

I genuinely think we need to move course a little and decide not what are all the things that we...

我真的认为我们需要稍微改变一下方向，而不是决定我们......

what's the freight train we're currently on, but what is it that we actually want?

我们目前乘坐的货运列车是什么，但我们真正想要的是什么？

What do we want our societies to look like?

我们希望我们的社会是什么样子？

What do we want the world to look like?

我们希望世界是什么样子？

Is it good enough that there's people, hundreds of millions of people that can't eat?

有几亿人吃不上饭，这够好吗？

What the hell?

我勒个去？

It just literally makes no sense.

从字面上看，这毫无意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: A column B world, you might say.

Lenny Rachitsky：你可能会说，A 柱 B 世界。

Lenny Rachitsky: Melanie, this was incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：梅兰妮，这太不可思议了。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Anything else you want to leave listeners with?

您还有什么想留给听众的吗？

Melanie Perkins: You have been extremely extensive.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：你的范围非常广泛。

I don't think I've got anything else to add, frankly.

坦率地说，我认为我没有什么要补充的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the goal.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是目标。

That's the goal.

这就是目标。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Melanie, are you ready?

梅兰妮，你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Melanie Perkins: One of the books I love is The Power of Moments, and it talks, am I supposed to be really fast and not tell you about it?

梅兰妮·帕金斯：我喜欢的一本书是《时刻的力量》，它讲述了，我是否应该很快而不告诉你？

Melanie Perkins: Okay.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：好的。

Two books, the Power of Moments, and one of the books early on I read was Designing the Obvious, which I found very insightful.

两本书，《瞬间的力量》，我早期读过的一本书是《设计显而易见的事物》，我发现这本书很有洞察力。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like they shifted to fast mode.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢他们转向快速模式。

You don't have to go superfast.

你不必开得超快。

All good.

一切都好。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Not Canva.

不是坎瓦。

Melanie Perkins: I love the Calm app.

Melanie Perkins：我喜欢 Calm 应用程序。

It is my daily companion.

它是我的日常伴侣。

I use it to meditate.

我用它来冥想。

I use it to listen to music.

我用它来听音乐。

I just find it very calming.

我只是觉得它非常平静。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

First question.

第一个问题。

I usually ask about movies and TV shows.

我通常会询问电影和电视剧。

I hear you don't watch a lot because you're so busy and have so much going on.

我听说你看的不多，因为你很忙，有很多事情要做。

So I'm going to try it, new question I haven't asked before.

所以我要尝试一下，这是我以前从未问过的新问题。

I'm curious where this goes.

我很好奇这会去哪里。

So excluding Canva, what's a product you'd love to work on someday, whether it's like an existing other company like, "Oh, I wish I could work on that thing," or just a new product you'd love to build maybe after the Canva chapter.

因此，除了 Canva 之外，您有一天会喜欢开发什么产品，是否像现有的其他公司一样，“哦，我希望我能开发那个东西”，或者只是您喜欢在 Canva 章节之后开发的新产品。

Melanie Perkins: I feel like my Canva chapter's going to go on for a long time, so I don't know, because we've got-

Melanie Perkins：我觉得我的 Canva 章节将会持续很长一段时间，所以我不知道，因为我们已经——

Melanie Perkins: ...

梅兰妮·帕金斯：……

decent plans side and we're pretty extensive.

计划不错，而且我们的范围相当广泛。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, maybe a company you'd love to fund.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，也许是一家您愿意资助的公司。

There we go.

我们开始吧。

Melanie Perkins: I feel like there's a lot of opportunity to create global infrastructure that is truly empowering.

Melanie Perkins：我觉得有很多机会来创建真正赋权的全球基础设施。

And so as I look at my 2050 wall, I think there's a lot of things that are currently only exclusively available to a small number of people that should be available to everyone.

因此，当我看着我的 2050 墙时，我认为有很多东西目前只提供给少数人，而应该提供给所有人。

And so the more that we can do to uplift the rising tide lifts all boats I think is a thing that's just so of such critical importance.

因此，我们可以做更多的事情来提升水涨船高的水平，我认为这是一件非常重要的事情。

And I think there is this weird belief that you can be fine and everyone else can be not fine and that's all cool.

我认为有一种奇怪的信念，即你可以很好，而其他人可能不好，这很酷。

I don't think that's cool.

我觉得这不太酷。

I think everyone suffers in such a case.

我想每个人都会遇到这样的情况。

So I think more things that help everyone to rise.

所以我想更多一些帮助大家提升的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe along those lines, but maybe not, is there a life motto that you find yourself coming back to and work your own life?

Lenny Rachitsky：也许沿着这些思路，但也许不是，有没有一个人生座右铭让你发现自己会回归并努力过自己的生活？

Melanie Perkins: There's a few.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：有一些。

I love the quote, happiness is when what you think, what you say and what you do are in harmony.

我喜欢这句话，幸福就是当你所想、所言、所行和谐一致时。

I feel like that's a constant aspiration.

我觉得这是一个永恒的愿望。

And then I've just been so obsessed lately with the idea that everything is led by imagination.

最近我非常痴迷于一切都是由想象力主导的想法。

That imagination is the very first step of that creative process.

想象力是创作过程的第一步。

So everything is good because once imagined is a quote you're going to be seeing from Canva all the time now because it is true that if you don't imagine it, you can't will it into existence.

所以一切都很好，因为一旦想象是你现在会一直从 Canva 看到的一句话，因为确实，如果你不想象它，你就无法将它实现。

And in fact, everything great that we experience in life was first imagined.

事实上，我们在生活中经历的一切伟大的事情都是首先想象出来的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

There's so much power to that one thought nugget there is just, there's all these tools now that can make building so much easier.

一个想法的力量是如此强大，现在有所有这些工具可以使构建变得更加容易。

You can just build anything you want, just describe it.

您可以构建任何您想要的东西，只需描述它即可。

But so many people are just like, I'm in the same boat.

但很多人都说，我在同一条船上。

I'm just stuck.

我只是被困住了。

"What do I want?" I don't even don't know what I need.

“我想要什么？”我什至不知道自己需要什么。

What should I build?

我应该构建什么？

And that's exactly what you're talking about there.

这正是你所说的。

Okay.

好的。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

So I saw it somewhere that you were an aspiring figure skater in your early years in high school, you had to wake up at 4:30 A.M.

我在哪里看到你在高中的时候是一名有抱负的花样滑冰运动员，你必须在凌晨 4:30 起床。

to practice.

去练习。

Is there something you learned from that period of your life that was helpful in building Canva?

您从那段生活中学到的东西对创建 Canva 有帮助吗？

Melanie Perkins: So many things are quite directly applicable, falling down over and over again and getting up and trying again, the importance of hard work and determination.

Melanie Perkins：很多事情都是非常直接适用的，一次又一次跌倒，再站起来再尝试，努力工作和决心的重要性。

I think the falling down, it was quite literal in my figure skating in days, and maybe it was a little more metaphorical in today, but it is constant.

我认为摔倒，这在我几天的花样滑冰中是很真实的，也许在今天有点隐喻，但它是持续的。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你是对的。

I wonder what that metaphor is for figure skating.

我想知道花样滑冰的比喻是什么。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Anyway, Melanie, this was incredible.

不管怎样，梅兰妮，这太不可思议了。

I am so thankful that you agreed to do this.

我非常感谢你同意这样做。

Two final questions: where can folks find you if they want to maybe reach out, send you feedback on Canvas or join Canva, and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题：如果人们想联系您、向您发送有关 Canvas 的反馈或加入 Canva，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Melanie Perkins: Really great questions.

梅兰妮·帕金斯：非常好的问题。

So you can find me on LinkedIn.

所以你可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

That's where I post the most.

那是我发帖最多的地方。

And you can go to and I can get the URL to give us your wishes and we want to hear them and we literally listen to them.

您可以访问，我可以获取 URL 来表达您的愿望，我们希望听到他们的愿望，我们确实会倾听他们的愿望。

It doesn't just go into a suggestion box.

它不只是进入建议箱。

And then how can they be helpful?

那么他们能提供什么帮助呢？

Use Canva, spread Canva, teach Canva.

使用 Canva、传播 Canva、教授 Canva。

We're doing a Canva World Tour through October, which is probably going to be updated when this is posted.

我们将在 10 月份进行 Canva 世界巡演，发布此信息后可能会进行更新。

Melanie Perkins: Come to our events.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：来参加我们的活动吧。

We do events all around the world and we'd love to see you and to hear from you.

我们在世界各地举办活动，我们很高兴见到您并收到您的来信。

And if you are in a company, starting a company, try and do the 1% pledge.

如果你在一家公司，正在创办一家公司，请尝试兑现 1% 的承诺。

Try and figure out your own version of the two-step plan and try and build products and in every decision that you make that actually makes the world that you want to live in.

尝试找出你自己的两步计划版本，尝试构建产品，并在你做出的每一个决定中真正创造出你想要生活的世界。

I think there's this kind of belief sometimes that the world is created by other people, but we all have a very active hand in creating the world that we live in.

我认为有时会有这样的信念，即世界是由其他人创造的，但我们所有人都在创造我们生活的世界方面发挥着非常积极的作用。

And every decision that you make for investors, every company that you fund, is that contributing the world to the world that you want to live in?

你为投资者做出的每一个决定，你资助的每一家公司，都是在为你想要生活的世界做出贡献吗？

Or is it creating the freight train that none of us want to be on?

或者它正在创造我们谁都不想乘坐的货运列车？

Lenny Rachitsky: I have to ask before I let you go.

Lenny Rachitsky：在放你走之前我必须先问一下。

Are you going to have the rap dancers at the next Canva event?

您打算在下一次 Canva 活动中邀请说唱舞者吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Melanie, thank you so much for being here.

梅兰妮，非常感谢你来到这里。

Melanie Perkins: Thank you so much, Lenny, for having me and your great well-researched questions.

梅兰妮·珀金斯：莱尼，非常感谢您邀请我和您提出的经过深入研究的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'sPodcasts.com.

您可以在 Lenny'sPodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。