Lessons from Atlassian | Megan Cook (Head of Product, Jira)

Megan Cook: What we put into place is something we call Fight Club.

梅根·库克：我们所建立的就是所谓的“搏击俱乐部”。

I'll probably get in trouble for talking about Fight Club.

我可能会因为谈论搏击俱乐部而惹上麻烦。

The first rule is you don't talk about Fight Club.

第一条规则是你不能谈论搏击俱乐部。

But it's 30 minutes every week, and it's just for myself, my engineering, and my design leader; and we get together, and we know that we're going there to have a conflict.

但每周只有 30 分钟，而且只适合我自己、我的工程人员和我的设计主管；我们聚在一起，我们知道我们要去那里会发生冲突。

Megan Cook: I think often when there's difficult conversations, or those conflicts come up, you can put them off until they become much bigger.

梅根·库克：我认为，通常当出现困难的对话或冲突时，你可以推迟它们，直到它们变得更大。

Or if somebody is conflict adverse, they can try to avoid having it at all.

或者，如果某人不喜欢冲突，他们可以尽量避免发生冲突。

But by having a specific slot of time in your week for something like that, then you're sort of in that mindset.

但是，通过在一周中安排特定的时间来做类似的事情，那么你就会处于这种心态中。

You know you're going in there to solve a hard problem.

你知道你要去那里解决一个难题。

You know that there's going to be a disagreement.

你知道会有分歧。

And it makes it much better.

它使它变得更好。

I think the relationship we all have is so much better because we get on top of these things early.

我认为我们之间的关系要好得多，因为我们很早就掌握了这些事情。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Megan Cook.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是梅根·库克。

Megan is head of product for Jira, which is used by 75% of Fortune 500 companies, 125,000 customers globally, and is by far the most popular project management tool in the world.

Megan 是 Jira 的产品主管，Jira 被 75% 的财富 500 强公司使用，全球有 125,000 名客户，是迄今为止世界上最受欢迎的项目管理工具。

Lenny: Megan has been at Atlassian for just under 11 years.

Lenny：Megan 加入 Atlassian 还不到 11 年。

Prior to Atlassian, Megan was an analyst, a developer, and an agile coach.

在加入 Atlassian 之前，Megan 是一名分析师、开发人员和敏捷教练。

Lenny: In our conversation, we discuss what Atlassian has done so right in being able to offer 15 different product lines, which many companies dream of, how they continue to stay ahead of the market in spite of the many competitors in the space, why Megan considers play so essential to building great teams and great products, a bunch of tactical advice for getting buy-in for your ideas, tips for being a successful PM in a remote environment.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了 Atlassian 在提供 15 种不同的产品线方面所做的如此正确的事情，这是许多公司所梦想的，尽管该领域有许多竞争对手，他们如何继续保持市场领先地位，为什么 Megan 认为发挥对于建立伟大的团队和伟大的产品如此重要，一系列让你的想法被接受的战术建议，以及在远程环境中成为一名成功的 PM 的技巧。

Also, a great story of failure, and so much more; including surfing tips.

此外，还有一个伟大的失败故事等等；包括冲浪技巧。

With that, I bring you Megan Cook after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了梅根·库克。

Lenny: This time of year is prime for career reflection and setting goals for professional growth.

莱尼：每年的这个时候是职业反思和设定职业发展目标的黄金时间。

I always like to spend this time reflecting on what I accomplished the previous year, what I hope to accomplish the next year, and whether this is the year I look for a new opportunity.

我总是喜欢用这段时间反思我去年完成的事情，我希望明年完成的事情，以及今年是否是我寻找新机会的一年。

That's where today's sponsor, Teal, comes in.

这就是今天的赞助商 Teal 登场的地方。

Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search.

Teal 为您提供了出色的求职工具。

With an AI-powered resume builder, job tracker, cover letter generator, and Chrome extension that integrates with over 40 job boards, Teal is the all-in-one platform you need to run a more streamlined and efficient job search and stand out in this competitive market.

Teal 拥有人工智能驱动的简历生成器、职位跟踪器、求职信生成器以及与 40 多个职位委员会集成的 Chrome 扩展程序，是您运行更精简、更高效的职位搜索并在这个竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出所需的一体化平台。

There's a reason nearly 1 million people have trusted Teal to run their job search.

近 100 万人信任 Teal 来进行求职是有原因的。

If you're thinking of making a change in the new year, leverage Teal to grow your career on your own terms.

如果您想在新的一年做出改变，请利用青色按照自己的方式发展您的职业生涯。

Get started for free at tealhq.com/lenny.

请访问 tealhq.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's tealhq.com/lenny.

这是tealhq.com/lenny。

Lenny: Let me tell you about a product called Sprig.

Lenny：让我告诉你一个叫做 Sprig 的产品。

NextGen product teams like Figma and Notion rely on Sprig to build products that people love.

Figma 和 Notion 等 NextGen 产品团队依靠 Sprig 来构建人们喜爱的产品。

Sprig is an AI-powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently.

Sprig 是一个人工智能驱动的平台，使您能够从正确的用户那里收集相关的产品体验见解，以便您可以快速、自信地做出产品决策。

Here's how it works: it all starts with Sprig's precise targeting, which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on users' characteristics and actions taken in product.

它的工作原理如下：这一切都始于 Sprig 的精确定位，它允许您根据用户的特征和在产品中采取的操作触发应用内研究。

Then, Sprig's AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings.

然后，Sprig 的 AI 分层在所有研究之上，以立即呈现您产品的最大学习成果。

Sprig's surveys enables you to target specific users to get relevant and timely feedback.

Sprig 的调查使您能够定位特定用户以获得相关且及时的反馈。

Sprig replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand.

Sprig 重播使您能够捕获目标会话剪辑，以亲身了解您的产品体验。

Sprig's AI is a game changer for product teams.

Sprig 的 AI 改变了产品团队的游戏规则。

They're the only platform with product level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations, in one realtime feed.

它们是唯一具有产品级人工智能的平台，这意味着它可以分析您所有研究的数据，将最重要的产品机会、趋势和相关性集中在一个实时源中。

Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off.

请访问 sprig.com/lenny 了解更多信息并享受 10% 折扣。

That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.

那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny。

Lenny: Megan, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：梅根，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Megan Cook: Thanks so much, Lenny.

梅根·库克：非常感谢，莱尼。

I am a big fan of your podcast, and I am excited to be here.

我是你播客的忠实粉丝，很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I have a lot of things I want to chat about.

莱尼：我有很多事情想聊。

I've heard about many things that you're extremely good at as a leader, as a product leader, and so I'm just going to poke around a bunch of different areas.

我听说过作为领导者、产品领导者你非常擅长做很多事情，所以我将探讨一些不同的领域。

I wanted to start with something that I hear you're just a big advocate of and really good at, which is creating space for play on teams and also just creating a lot of psychological safety, something that you find really important that helps your teams be as successful as they are.

我想从我听说你非常倡导并且非常擅长的事情开始，那就是为团队创造比赛空间，同时也创造很多心理安全感，你发现这非常重要，可以帮助你的团队取得成功。

Lenny: Can you just talk about why this is important to you, why creating play and psychological safety are so important to you, and then just how you do this, maybe an example or two of how you actually apply this on your teams?

莱尼：你能谈谈为什么这对你很重要，为什么创造比赛和心理安全对你如此重要，然后你是如何做到这一点的，也许是一个或两个例子来说明你如何在你的团队中实际应用这一点？

Megan Cook: Yeah, absolutely.

梅根·库克：是的，绝对是。

I think especially recently in the tech industry, it almost feels like we're going through a bit of a wake-up call at the moment.

我认为特别是最近在科技行业，我们现在几乎感觉像是在经历一场警钟。

We were in this time of plenty, and everyone was hiring like crazy, and then COVID hit and suddenly people's behaviors had to really change.

我们正处于这个物质丰富的时代，每个人都在疯狂招聘，然后新冠疫情来袭，人们的行为突然必须真正改变。

People couldn't travel; they had to work from home.

人们无法旅行；他们必须在家工作。

There's a whole bunch of industries that got highly impacted by that, and it created this time of high ambiguity.

有很多行业都受到了很大的影响，这也造成了这次高度模糊性。

Megan Cook: Before that, or to the start of that, I was noticing within my team just some little indicators where people weren't all comfortable to speak up when we'd had really open discussions with the most junior person, where the most senior person were happy to talk about anything.

梅根·库克：在那之前，或者在那开始之前，我注意到我的团队内部有一些小迹象，当我们与资历最浅的人进行真正公开的讨论时，人们不太愿意发言，而资历最深的人很乐意谈论任何事情。

There was more anonymity in feedback.

反馈中有更多匿名者。

Every time things were coming to leadership to give feedback on, it was just sort of painfully polished.

每次要向领导层提供反馈时，都要经过痛苦的打磨。

And I think once it gets to that level, that's a really bad time to give feedback, because it probably means that a whole ton of work has gone into it, and you might waste a whole bunch of work if you have to correct direction or make significant changes.

我认为一旦达到这个水平，那就是提供反馈的非常糟糕的时机，因为这可能意味着大量的工作已经投入其中，如果你必须纠正方向或做出重大改变，你可能会浪费大量的工作。

Megan Cook: And so, I was looking at my team and thinking, "Yeah, something doesn't feel quite right here." And then I went to this leadership outside, and one of the speakers there was Ben Crowe.

梅根·库克：所以，我看着我的团队并想，“是的，这里感觉有些不对劲。”然后我去了外面的领导层，那里的演讲者之一是本·克罗。

He's an expert in having the right mindset.

他是拥有正确心态的专家。

So he works with Olympic gold medalists, and Ash Barty is another one, who's a tennis player.

所以他与奥运会金牌得主一起工作，阿什·巴蒂是另一位，他是一名网球运动员。

She's the number one tennis player in the entire world.

她是全世界排名第一的网球运动员。

So these athletes who have to really perform under a lot of pressure, in front of a lot of people.

所以这些运动员必须在很大的压力下，在很多人面前真正表现出来。

And he talked about how to be in that state of flow, where everything is going really well and new ideas are coming and you're making progress, you've got great momentum.

他谈到了如何处于那种心流状态，一切都进展顺利，新想法不断涌现，你正在取得进展，你有很大的动力。

And he talked about how to be in that flow state.

他谈到了如何进入那种心流状态。

There needs to be this sense of play and that things are fun.

需要有这种游戏感并且事情很有趣。

Your mind's open to new ideas, you feel really present.

你的思想对新想法持开放态度，你感觉自己真正存在。

You're not stressing out and thinking about a ton of other different things.

你不会感到压力很大，也不会思考很多其他不同的事情。

Megan Cook: And it's funny because when I thought about play where my mind went to the opposite of play is work.

梅根·库克：这很有趣，因为当我想到玩耍时，我的思绪就转向了玩耍的反面——工作。

We often hear work and play as opposites together, but his point was actually that the opposite of play is fear.

我们经常听到工作和娱乐是对立的，但他的观点实际上是娱乐的对立面是恐惧。

And I realized I think that's what I was seeing a lot of in my team and that's why the ideas were getting more incremental.

我意识到我认为这就是我在团队中看到的很多东西，这就是为什么这些想法变得更加渐进。

So took that decision and went, okay, we need to look at psychological safety in that team or we're never going to get to some of these bigger, bolder, more innovative ideas.

所以做出了这个决定，好吧，我们需要考虑团队的心理安全，否则我们永远不会得到一些更大、更大胆、更具创新性的想法。

And so brought my group, product managers together, and we sat around and discussed it and all together came up with some ideas that we've implemented since then, which has had a really good impact.

因此，我的团队、产品经理聚集在一起，我们围坐在一起讨论这个问题，大家一起提出了一些我们从那时起就实施的想法，这产生了非常好的影响。

So I'll give you a couple.

所以我会给你几个。

Megan Cook: One of the first ones was my team of PMs is big enough now where not everyone necessarily gets to know everyone else, and when you don't have that relationship, it can feel a little scary.

梅根·库克：首要的问题之一是我的产品经理团队现在已经足够大了，并不是每个人都必须认识其他人，当你没有这种关系时，可能会感觉有点可怕。

You don't have that trust that you understand how people are going to respond to you and you're not sure about reaching out.

您不相信自己了解人们将如何回应您，并且不确定是否要与您联系。

So we divided the team into these smaller groups for peer feedback groups and the idea is that they meet every two weeks or so, somebody brings something that's in a pretty rough draft that they want to get reviewed and then everyone's expected to give feedback.

因此，我们将团队分成了这些较小的小组，作为同行反馈小组，我们的想法是，他们每两周左右开会一次，有人带来一些相当粗略的草稿，他们希望得到审查，然后每个人都应该提供反馈。

And because we've got people in there who are different leadership levels, it's a really good opportunity to model the kind of feedback that's helpful and the culture there is one of everyone lifting that person up to make their work stronger.

因为我们有不同领导级别的人，所以这是一个很好的机会来模拟有用的反馈，并且那里的文化是每个人都在提升这个人，使他们的工作更强大。

Megan Cook: So people can get in there, they can show that you can show work that's really in the early stages and feel comfortable with that.

梅根·库克：这样人们就可以进入那里，他们可以表明你可以展示真正处于早期阶段的作品，并且对此感到满意。

They can see that getting feedback can actually be really positive and they can see how all of these people together, they can rely on them and forge those relationships so they can rely on more people to help them out.

他们可以看到，获得反馈实际上是非常积极的，他们可以看到所有这些人在一起，他们可以如何依赖他们并建立这些关系，这样他们就可以依靠更多的人来帮助他们。

Lenny: This is so interesting and it's such a good idea and it's such a simple and good idea and I'm surprised I haven't heard of people doing this before.

莱尼：这太有趣了，这是一个很好的主意，这是一个简单又好的主意，我很惊讶我以前没有听说过有人这样做。

Basically you pair up PMs, IC PMs and maybe managers too, to give each other feedback.

基本上，您将 PM、IC PM 甚至经理配对，互相提供反馈。

And is the feedback on one-pagers and PRDs and strategy docs and things like that?

是关于单寻呼机、PRD 和战略文档以及类似内容的反馈吗？

What sort of documents are they giving feedback on?

他们对哪些类型的文件提供反馈？

Megan Cook: So really, it can be anything.

梅根·库克：所以说真的，它可以是任何东西。

It can be here's a new experience, launching, here's a new strategy.

这可能是一种新的体验、一种新的推出、一种新的策略。

I've taken my own strategies in there and gotten excellent feedback, surprising feedback from the team.

我在那里采取了自己的策略，并从团队那里得到了极好的反馈，令人惊讶的反馈。

Can be a new experiment that people think of running and anything to do with the craft.

可以是人们想到运行的新实验以及任何与工艺有关的东西。

Lenny: And I think as you kind of implied, one of the powers of this approach is it's a small team, so it's less stressful and there's no...

莱尼：我认为正如你所暗示的那样，这种方法的优势之一是它是一个小团队，所以压力较小，而且没有......

You're not in the room often too.

你也不常在房间里。

I guess you are sometimes as you just said, but usually it's like peers and they could be a little more open and less worried about looking back.

我想你有时就像你刚才说的那样，但通常就像同龄人一样，他们可以更开放一点，更少担心回顾。

Megan Cook: Yeah, absolutely.

梅根·库克：是的，绝对是。

And I think a lot of it is just building that muscle.

我认为这很大程度上只是为了增强肌肉。

You might go through an experience once every quarter or once every six months and that can feel really stressful, but if you're doing it again and again, you get used to it.

您可能每季度或每六个月都会经历一次，这可能会让人感到压力很大，但如果您一次又一次地这样做，您就会习惯它。

You get used to what to expect, you get a bit more practice, it can feel much more comfortable.

你习惯了所期待的事情，多一点练习，就会感觉舒服得多。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

So it's just simple and powerful idea.

所以这是一个简单而强大的想法。

It's kind of like everyone's always suggesting getting a mentor, getting a coach as a PM and those are hard to find.

有点像每个人总是建议找一位导师，找一位教练作为产品经理，而这些都很难找到。

And this is just a little informal.

这只是有点非正式。

It's almost like a little peer group board of directors for your work.

这几乎就像你的工作的一个小型同行小组董事会。

We talk about that on the podcast sometimes.

我们有时会在播客上讨论这个问题。

So anyway, that's awesome.

无论如何，这太棒了。

Really good idea and something anyone can do.

确实是个好主意，任何人都可以做。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Okay, you have a second idea?

好吧，你还有第二个想法吗？

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

One of the other things we do is we get everyone together just like every six months.

我们做的另一件事是我们每六个月让每个人聚在一起。

So all of the product managers get together in the same place and the idea is to have a bit of an onsite.

因此，所有的产品经理都聚集在同一个地方，我们的想法是进行一些现场活动。

Now we start off with just doing something fun because everybody...

现在我们从做一些有趣的事情开始，因为每个人......

As you might know, Atlassian is a remote organization, so everybody works remote all the time.

您可能知道，Atlassian 是一个远程组织，因此每个人都始终远程工作。

They can work from anywhere.

他们可以在任何地方工作。

And so people often, they're not used to necessarily being all together in the same place.

因此，人们通常不习惯必须聚集在同一个地方。

It can take a little while to warm up.

可能需要一些时间来预热。

And then after that we talk about strategy.

然后我们讨论策略。

We do workshops on different elements of craft boosting that craft together.

我们举办关于工艺不同元素的研讨会，共同促进工艺发展。

And so a similar kind of thing.

类似的事情也是如此。

People get to build relationships together.

人们可以一起建立关系。

They get to see all these different ideas bouncing around which can help uplift their own ideas and help them be more innovative.

他们可以看到所有这些不同的想法不断涌现，这有助于提升他们自己的想法并帮助他们更具创新性。

Megan Cook: In this last one, I actually had some senior leaders from all over the organization come and share their stories of failure.

梅根·库克：在最后一篇文章中，我实际上邀请了来自整个组织的一些高级领导者来分享他们的失败故事。

So just to get everyone used to that idea that it's okay to fail and actually if the learnings are really good, maybe it should even be celebrated and it's not something to be scared of.

因此，只是为了让每个人都习惯这样的想法：失败没关系，实际上，如果学到的东西真的很好，也许甚至应该庆祝，而不是害怕。

And taking the big swing isn't a bad thing.

采取大行动并不是一件坏事。

It can be a really powerful way to learn as well.

这也可能是一种非常有效的学习方式。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

We've been talking about failure a lot on this podcast, so we're super aligned with the power of that.

我们在这个播客上经常谈论失败，所以我们非常认同失败的力量。

And so just to be clear, so what you do there, is it the entire product team of Atlassian or is it just your team in this every six month?

需要明确的是，您在那里做什么，是 Atlassian 的整个产品团队还是您的团队每六个月参与一次？

Megan Cook: It's just my team and then we pull in other product managers that we work closely with as well.

梅根·库克：这只是我的团队，然后我们还引入了与我们密切合作的其他产品经理。

Lenny: And then you fly them all to Australia, I imagine?

莱尼：然后你把他们都飞到澳大利亚，我想？

Lenny: To Sydney.

莱尼：去悉尼。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

And I think, so the key there is it's not just like go meet each other, it's training almost on different skill sets, helping people level up in say craft or I don't know, communication or writing or something like that.

我认为，关键是这不仅仅是互相见面，而是对几乎不同的技能进行培训，帮助人们提高手艺或我不知道的水平，沟通或写作或类似的东西。

And then who teaches these things?

那么谁教这些东西呢？

Is it like individual team members or you bring someone in?

是像个别团队成员还是你带人进来？

Megan Cook: We have a real mix actually.

梅根·库克：实际上我们有一个真正的组合。

So yeah, we'll bring in outside experts or we'll get...

所以是的，我们会聘请外部专家，否则我们会......

There's a lot of knowledge and a lot of skill within the team itself.

团队本身拥有很多知识和技能。

So you'll have different product managers who have different strengths.

所以你会有不同的产品经理，他们有不同的优势。

We have totally different teams.

我们有完全不同的团队。

So someone on a growth team, for example, might want to teach everyone about how to create great hypotheses or we'll get someone external from the team, but internal to Atlassian who has those skills who can come in.

例如，增长团队中的某个人可能想教每个人如何创建出色的假设，或者我们会从团队外部聘请具有这些技能的 Atlassian 内部人员来加入。

Lenny: I love that also gives those PMs a chance to, one, learn the skill better themselves because they're teaching it, and also just teach and present in public speaking and all that stuff.

Lenny：我喜欢这也让那些产品经理有机会自己更好地学习这项技能，因为他们正在教授这项技能，而且还可以教授并在公开演讲等方面进行展示。

There's all these other benefits to doing that sort of thing.

做这类事情还有所有其他好处。

Megan Cook: Yeah, absolutely.

梅根·库克：是的，绝对是。

And I think as a product leader, it's really important to model the behavior you want to see from your teams, whether that's getting out there teaching, presenting, explaining different concepts, explaining the business or just being vulnerable and talking about when things haven't worked out.

我认为作为一名产品领导者，为你希望从团队中看到的行为建模是非常重要的，无论是走出去教学、演示、解释不同的概念、解释业务，还是只是在事情没有解决时表现出脆弱和谈论。

Lenny: When we started this question, you talked about how there was kind of the shift at Atlassian where things started to feel more formal and people started to feel less open to sharing, being criticized in meetings.

Lenny：当我们开始这个问题时，您谈到 Atlassian 发生了某种转变，事情开始变得更加正式，人们开始感觉不太愿意分享，在会议上受到批评。

Just in case people might feel that might be happening in their company, do you remember roughly what size that started to happen at or signs of like, "I'm noticing people are sharing less or being more worried about talking in big meetings"?

以防万一人们觉得他们的公司可能会发生这种情况，您是否还记得大概是在什么规模开始发生的，或者有类似的迹象，“我注意到人们分享的东西越来越少，或者更担心在大型会议上发言”？

Megan Cook: Probably when we got into really different streams of work that were happening where people didn't have as much of a reason to interact with each other.

梅根·库克：可能当我们进入真正不同的工作流时，人们没有太多的理由相互交流。

So I think that was probably around, even around 15 we started to see a little bit of that.

所以我认为这可能是在 15 左右，甚至在 15 岁左右我们就开始看到一些这样的情况。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Cool.

凉爽的。

That's a good stat.

这是一个很好的统计数据。

Megan Cook: Yeah, you know what, I'll give one more thing that we do.

梅根·库克：是的，你知道吗，我会再介绍一件我们所做的事情。

So we've just started trying something new called the $10 game for priorities.

因此，我们刚刚开始尝试一种名为 10 美元优先游戏的新游戏。

And so that's where I think people might have played the $10 game for your priorities when it comes to a strategy or something like that.

所以我认为，当涉及到策略或类似的事情时，人们可能会为了优先考虑而玩 10 美元的游戏。

We started trying it out with your individual priorities.

我们开始根据您的个人优先事项进行尝试。

So you and your manager might come in and you can list out all of your priorities and then show you through just dividing up $10 where you're spending all of your time.

因此，您和您的经理可能会进来，列出您所有的优先事项，然后向您展示如何将 10 美元分配给您所有的时间。

And I've done this with people and we've sort of gotten down to like, "I'm putting 10 cents here this week." And I'm like, "Oh, what is that?

我和人们一起做过这样的事，我们都开始喜欢这样的感觉：“这周我要在这里投入 10 美分。”我就想，“哦，那是什么？

20 minutes, 30 minutes spending.

20分钟，30分钟花费。

I didn't think that's actually moving right." And so it's been great to see where people are overloaded and alignment on do my priorities stack up, but also am I spending the time on the most important things that could be moving the business forward?

我不认为这实际上是正确的。”因此，很高兴看到人们在哪些地方超负荷，并且我的优先事项是否一致，而且我是否将时间花在可能推动业务发展的最重要的事情上？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So you mentioned that y'all are remote.

所以你提到你们都是远程的。

Has it been remote from the beginning?

难道从一开始就很遥远吗？

Megan Cook: No, not from the beginning.

梅根·库克：不，从一开始就不是。

Actually when COVID hit, I think that was the big one.

事实上，当新冠疫情来袭时，我认为这是一场大事件。

Lenny: Okay, okay, got it.

莱尼：好的，好的，明白了。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

So a lot of companies are moving to remote work, trying to figure out how to work remotely.

因此，很多公司正在转向远程工作，试图弄清楚如何远程工作。

It seems like it's working really well for Atlassian, at least from what I can see.

看起来它对于 Atlassian 来说运行得非常好，至少从我看来是这样。

Is there any advice or any big lessons or tips or tricks you've learned that you could share for how to be effective working remotely, especially as a product manager?

对于如何有效地远程工作，尤其是作为产品经理，您是否可以分享任何建议或任何重要的经验教训或技巧或技巧？

It feels like as a PM, the job has gotten so much harder having to be remote, and so yeah, I'm curious if you just have any advice you could share for people trying to make this work for their company or for themselves?

感觉作为一名产品经理，工作变得更加困难，必须远程办公，所以是的，我很好奇你是否有什么建议可以分享给那些试图为他们的公司或他们自己做这项工作的人？

Megan Cook: Yeah, absolutely.

梅根·库克：是的，绝对是。

It's a really good question because it's not easy and we definitely went through a whole bunch of pitfalls at the beginning, but we're really firm believers that you don't need to be in the office to build world-class products.

这是一个非常好的问题，因为这并不容易，而且我们一开始确实经历了一大堆陷阱，但我们坚信您不需要在办公室就可以构建世界一流的产品。

So we call our product team anywhere, and this means that anyone Atlassian can choose where they want to work every day.

因此，我们在任何地方调用我们的产品团队，这意味着任何 Atlassian 都可以选择他们每天想要工作的地方。

We think it's a bit more human, that flexibility shouldn't be a perk, that it fundamentally can change people's lives depending on what else they have on outside of work.

我们认为这更人性化，灵活性不应该是一种福利，它从根本上可以改变人们的生活，这取决于他们在工作之外所做的其他事情。

And so we think less about where do you work and we think more about how to be productive and effective in your work.

因此，我们较少考虑您在哪里工作，而更多地考虑如何提高工作效率和效率。

Megan Cook: To your point, we started doing this right when COVID hit, so it's been about three years and actually we just released a guide with our key learnings from that.

梅根·库克：就你的观点而言，我们在新冠肺炎爆发时就开始做这件事，所以已经过去了大约三年，实际上我们刚刚发布了一份指南，其中包含我们从中学到的主要经验。

It's all about a thousand days of remote work, which folks can go and find on our Work Life blog under research@atlassian.com if they want to dive in there more.

这都是大约一千天的远程工作，如果人们想深入了解的话，可以在我们的工作生活博客上找到，地址为research@atlassian.com。

But I can give you a couple of tips from that and what we found from some of our research.

但我可以给你一些建议以及我们从一些研究中发现的内容。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

And we'll link to that doc in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到该文档。

Megan Cook: Okay, great.

梅根·库克：好的，太好了。

The first one is just making time for connection.

第一个只是腾出时间进行联系。

So that human connection is definitely built in person, but what we found is that it doesn't have to be something that happens every single day.

因此，人与人之间的联系肯定是建立在人与人之间的，但我们发现它不一定是每天都会发生的事情。

So we found the connection and productivity, they both get boosted by about 30% when you bring people together but intentionally, and it lasts them months.

所以我们发现，当你有意地将人们聚集在一起时，联系和生产力都会提高约 30%，而且这种效果会持续几个月。

So we found that you can do it on average like three times a year.

所以我们发现你平均每年可以做三次。

And so that's why my PM team are getting together every six months.

这就是为什么我的 PM 团队每六个月聚一次。

But in addition to that, we get the entire team together every other six months.

但除此之外，我们每隔六个月就会让整个团队聚在一起。

So we end up all getting together every four times a year.

所以我们最终每年每四次聚会一次。

Megan Cook: So every other six months, what we do is we get all of the engineers, designers, everybody who's working together.

梅根·库克：每隔六个月，我们就会召集所有工程师、设计师以及所有一起工作的人。

We book out entire floors in the office and then for an entire week we're just there.

我们预订了办公室的整个楼层，然后整整一周我们都在那里。

And for some of it we're just working together as you normally would, but at desks and just having those little water cooler type conversations.

对于其中一些事情，我们只是像平常一样一起工作，但在办公桌上，只是进行一些饮水机式的对话。

It builds the relationships again.

它再次建立了关系。

Other times we're doing workshops, an important piece of work where it's easier to do when you're all in person and sometimes we're just having fun together.

其他时候我们会举办研讨会，这是一项重要的工作，当大家亲自参加时会更容易完成，有时我们只是在一起玩得很开心。

We call that a bit of a festival.

我们称之为节日。

Lenny: You mentioned that you measured some kind of productivity improvement.

莱尼：您提到您衡量了某种生产力的提高。

Do you happen to know how they measure that because that is really interesting?

您是否知道他们如何衡量这一点，因为这真的很有趣？

Megan Cook: Oh, that's a good question.

梅根·库克：哦，这是个好问题。

I don't, but I can get that for you.

我没有，但我可以帮你拿。

Lenny: That'd be cool to know.

莱尼：如果知道的话那就太好了。

So I think we'll keep this in the podcast episode and then if there's anything in the show notes that we link to that talks about how they measure that, that'd be really interesting because that's just a cool stat to have anyway, for all kinds of other things.

因此，我认为我们会将其保留在播客节目中，然后如果我们在节目笔记中链接到有关他们如何衡量这一点的任何内容，那将非常有趣，因为无论如何，对于所有其他事物来说，这都是一个很酷的统计数据。

I'm curious how they measure that.

我很好奇他们是如何衡量的。

Megan Cook: I think the second one is to be really intentional.

梅根·库克：我认为第二个是真正有目的的。

I mentioned that we went through a few stumbling blocks at the start.

我提到我们一开始遇到了一些绊脚石。

One of those was immediately, everyone sort of filled up everybody's calendar with all of these meetings straight away.

其中之一是立即，每个人都立即将所有这些会议填满了每个人的日历。

It was almost as if Lenny, if you and I were working together, I used to be able to just poke my head around my monitor and ask you something.

就好像莱尼，如果你和我一起工作，我过去可以把头探到显示器周围问你一些事情。

And people were afraid that now that I can't do that, how do I get those answers?

人们担心现在我不能这样做，我如何得到这些答案？

So I need more time with everybody and that definitely does not help productivity at all.

所以我需要更多的时间和每个人在一起，但这绝对对生产力没有任何帮助。

Megan Cook: And so as PMs, we need time for creative work.

梅根·库克：作为产品经理，我们需要时间进行创造性工作。

We need that deep work time, and that doesn't happen when you've got all of these meetings with 30 minutes in between each of them.

我们需要深度的工作时间，但当你参加所有这些会议且每次会议之间间隔 30 分钟时，这种情况就不会发生。

You need three to four hours to get that going, to get into that flow state.

你需要三到四个小时才能开始，进入心流状态。

So my leadership team and I, we actually sync up our calendars, so we end up having these long stretches twice a week all at the same time.

所以我和我的领导团队实际上同步了我们的日历，所以我们最终每周同时进行两次长时间的伸展运动。

And so we all get a chance to do this deep work.

所以我们都有机会做这项深入的工作。

It means we get less time for meetings, but it also means that if something comes up that's unexpected that we all need to work on together, then we've got that time there so we can be a bit more relaxed about it.

这意味着我们开会的时间减少了，但这也意味着，如果出现意外情况，需要我们大家共同努力，那么我们就有时间，这样我们就可以更放松一些。

We know we can get to it.

我们知道我们可以做到。

Lenny: What time of the day is that meeting?

莱尼：那个会议是一天中的什么时间？

Megan Cook: They're both at different times.

梅根·库克：他们都处于不同的时期。

So the first one's taking up one afternoon and the second one's taking up all of the time in the morning.

所以第一个占用了一个下午，第二个占用了整个上午的时间。

Depending on what kind of person you are, one is going to see you better than the others.

根据你是什么样的人，人们会比其他人更好地看待你。

So we just went for one each.

所以我们就每人各买了一份。

Lenny: I actually had the same thing just personally where I had these deep worked blocked times on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

莱尼：实际上，我个人也经历过同样的事情，周一、周三和周五我都经历了深度工作的阻塞时间。

The title of the invite was, "If you book time during this, I'll slap you." And it really worked well.

邀请函的标题是“如果你在这期间预约时间，我就打你一巴掌。”而且效果确实很好。

But I think you're talking about this other missing piece of remote work for PMs where you can't just walk by and ask an engineer, "Hey, how's it going?" Or ask a designer, "Oh, where are you at?

但我认为你谈论的是产品经理远程工作中另一个缺失的部分，你不能只是路过问工程师，“嘿，进展如何？”或者问设计师：“哦，你在哪里？

Let me just take a peek at what you're working on." That stuff I think is really hard to replicate.

让我看看你在做什么。”我认为这些东西真的很难复制。

And if your suggestion is block out this time for your leadership team to be able to check in with each other, is the idea there it's deep work time and don't bother anyone on the team or is it you can also just ping your end manager and like, "Hey, how's it going?"

如果你的建议这次被拒绝了，让你的领导团队能够互相检查，是不是因为工作时间很长，不要打扰团队中的任何人，或者你也可以直接给你的最终经理打电话，说：“嘿，进展如何？”

Megan Cook: The idea is that it's deep work time and it's your time to be protected to do that work.

梅根·库克：我们的想法是，现在是深度工作时间，也是您在完成这项工作时受到保护的时间。

What I found that works really well, I think in the manager and report kind of relationship, so I have these really quick punchy one-on-ones with my reports every week.

我发现这种方法非常有效，我认为在经理和报告之间的关系中，所以我每周都会与我的报告进行快速而有力的一对一交流。

And then I make sure that I've got space in my calendar because something will come up where even if we had a longer one-on-one that might not cover it.

然后我确保我的日历中有足够的空间，因为即使我们进行更长的一对一，也可能无法涵盖一些事情。

They might just need an hour to run through something, there might be a really difficult strategy problem they've run into.

他们可能只需要一个小时来完成某些事情，他们可能遇到了一个非常困难的策略问题。

And so they'll know that they can ping me for more time and I'll have that flex in my calendar for that.

这样他们就会知道他们可以给我更多时间，我会在我的日历中为此灵活安排。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Any other tips along those lines?

还有其他类似的建议吗？

Megan Cook: Well, you probably noticed about blocking a bunch of deep work time is that you don't have as much time for meetings.

梅根·库克：嗯，你可能注意到，阻塞大量深度工作时间是因为你没有那么多时间开会。

So that meeting time becomes really precious.

这样，见面的时间就变得非常宝贵。

And what we do there is...

我们在那里所做的是...

I personally hate having status updates as a meeting.

我个人讨厌在会议时更新状态。

So I make it really clear that if we're having a meeting, this is to solve a problem.

所以我明确表示，如果我们开会，就是为了解决问题。

And if it's just a status update, that's fine, then I can read that asynchronously at a time that works for me.

如果这只是状态更新，那很好，然后我可以在适合我的时间异步读取它。

And so can everybody else in the team if they want to do that.

如果团队中的其他人想这样做，他们也可以这样做。

Actually we use our own tool for this, which makes it really easy.

实际上，我们使用我们自己的工具来完成此操作，这使得它非常简单。

So it's called Atlas and it lets you or the team put in status updates for a goal or a project regularly and then it'll bundle it all up into an email so you can quickly get across everything that you're interested in, which has been really helpful.

所以它被称为 Atlas，它可以让您或团队定期更新目标或项目的状态，然后将其全部捆绑到一封电子邮件中，以便您可以快速了解您感兴趣的所有内容，这非常有帮助。

Megan Cook: And then that just makes the documentation rigorous as well.

Megan Cook：这也使得文档变得严谨。

So you document things and we use Confluence, but all of our decisions, strategies, kickoffs for projects, that's all really well documented piny starters.

所以你记录事情，我们使用 Confluence，但是我们所有的决策、策略、项目的启动，这些都是有很好记录的小启动器。

Or even if you're a year down the line and you're thinking, "Why didn't we come to that decision in the first place?

或者即使一年后你会想：“为什么我们一开始没有做出这个决定？

What were our assumptions?

我们的假设是什么？

What were our hypotheses?" It's easy to go back and take a look at that and be able to reflect.

我们的假设是什么？”很容易回去看看并进行反思。

Megan Cook: I think the last thing is I work with people who are in the US, they're in Europe, they're all over the world.

梅根·库克：我认为最后一件事是我与美国、欧洲和世界各地的人一起工作。

It's really hard to find a time that works for an Aussie, an American and a European to get together.

很难找到一个适合澳大利亚人、美国人和欧洲人聚在一起的时间。

Someone's waking up at 3:00 AM or something.

有人在凌晨 3:00 左右醒来。

So what's become a big part of how we work is actually audio and video recordings.

因此，音频和视频记录实际上已成为我们工作方式的重要组成部分。

I actually had someone reporting to me for a while who was in France and what we would do was record videos back and forth and they're quick.

实际上，有人在法国向我汇报了一段时间，我们要做的就是来回录制视频，而且速度很快。

You can just use colloquial language, they're really casual, you don't have to wonder about someone's tone that comes across.

你可以只使用口语，它们很随意，你不必怀疑别人的语气。

So that's becoming almost like a completely new document type for us and it's been really important in remote work.

因此，这对我们来说几乎变成了一种全新的文档类型，它在远程工作中非常重要。

You can put at the top of a document and explain the document, which is really nice.

你可以把它放在文档的顶部并解释该文档，这真的很好。

It's a big part of why we bought Loom.

这是我们购买 Loom 的一个重要原因。

Lenny: I was just going to say that.

莱尼：我正想说这个。

It all makes sense.

这一切都是有道理的。

Megan Cook: Yeah, because it was just becoming such a big part of our life and it's just massively helpful.

梅根·库克：是的，因为它正在成为我们生活的重要组成部分，而且非常有帮助。

Lenny: Kind of along the same lines, being fully remote, it is harder to get buy-in on things you're working on I imagine.

莱尼：同样的道理，我想，在完全远程的情况下，你正在做的事情很难得到认可。

And something I hear you're great at is getting buy-in, especially getting buy-in on ideas and projects from executives.

我听说你最擅长的是获得认可，尤其是获得高管对想法和项目的认可。

So I think things that make it extra challenging at Atlassian, there's two CEOs which I didn't know until recently.

因此，我认为 Atlassian 的工作更具挑战性，因为有两位首席执行官，我直到最近才认识。

You're also all very remote and so maybe those two reasons make it extra hard.

你们也都非常偏远，所以也许这两个原因让事情变得格外困难。

Plus it's just generally hard to get buy-in on projects that you're working on.

另外，你正在从事的项目通常很难获得认可。

What advice do you share with product leaders, PMs that come to you asking for advice on how to get better at getting buy-in for your ideas?

当产品负责人、产品经理向您寻求如何更好地让您的想法获得支持时，您会分享哪些建议？

Megan Cook: Yeah, this can be really hard to get right.

梅根·库克：是的，这确实很难做好。

I watch a lot of people struggle with this, and you're right, being fully remote can make it a bit more challenging.

我看到很多人都在为此苦苦挣扎，你是对的，完全远程会让事情变得更具挑战性。

And then I think also you've got your cross-functional partners that you're working with as this tight-knit team and how do you form that relationship?

然后我认为你们也有与你们合作的跨职能合作伙伴作为这个紧密的团队，你们是如何建立这种关系的？

But I'll start with just general buy-in.

但我将从一般性的买入开始。

Megan Cook: Most of the time when people come to me and they want to ask how to get by-in, they've got a date in mind, they've got a particular meeting and they have this idea where they're going to crop this perfect proposal, they're going to present it, everyone's going to give them thumbs up and they win.

梅根·库克：大多数时候，当人们来找我，想问如何参加时，他们心里已经有一个日期，他们有一个特定的会议，他们有这样的想法，他们将在哪里提出这个完美的提案，他们将提出它，每个人都会给他们竖起大拇指，然后他们就赢了。

And that's the wrong attitude I think even to start with to getting buy-in.

我认为，即使从获得认同开始，这也是错误的态度。

It's more of a journey.

这更像是一次旅程。

Megan Cook: I'll give you an example where I was looking at how do people start their day in Jira and how do people get started in Jira?

Megan Cook：我举个例子，我正在研究人们如何在 Jira 中开始新的一天以及人们如何在 Jira 中开始？

And we had this idea of we could craft more templates so that we could give people a better way to start with very different use cases when they came into the product.

我们的想法是，我们可以制作更多模板，这样我们就可以为人们提供更好的方法，让他们在进入产品时可以从非常不同的用例开始。

And this could change everything from even just the front homepage where they started all the way to what's happening in product.

这可能会改变一切，甚至从他们开始的首页一直到产品中发生的事情。

It would create this really nice flow.

它会创造出非常好的流程。

Megan Cook: Jira is also a platform as well as just Jira software the product.

Megan Cook：Jira 也是一个平台，Jira 软件也是一个产品。

There's actually four different products built on top of it.

实际上有四种不同的产品构建在它之上。

So when you want to go and change something like that, you're actually changing it for all of these different products.

因此，当您想要进行类似的更改时，您实际上是在针对所有这些不同的产品进行更改。

It's not just the one.

这不仅仅是一个。

And so what was really important there was partnering with a whole bunch of different stakeholders.

因此，真正重要的是与一大群不同的利益相关者合作。

So every product that this could potentially negatively or positively impact, we went to very early with the idea and the proposal and we got their feedback and then we came to them and again and again as we developed it further.

因此，对于每一个可能产生负面或积极影响的产品，我们很早就提出了想法和提案，并得到了他们的反馈，然后随着我们进一步开发它，我们一次又一次地去找他们。

So as we got designs, as we got more data, as we tested things out with users, we kept coming back and we take their feedback on board.

因此，当我们获得设计、获得更多数据、与用户进行测试时，我们会不断回来并听取他们的反馈。

Megan Cook: And so I think creating those partnerships is really important.

梅根·库克：所以我认为建立这些合作伙伴关系非常重要。

And also the same can be true at the executive level.

在行政层面也是如此。

So often you go into these meetings where you're giving a proposal and you're trying to get that final yes on the decision.

你经常会参加这些会议，提出建议，并试图获得最终的同意。

You've got a lot of people in there with a lot of different angles that they can look at that problem and so much good experience to draw on.

那里有很多人，他们可以从不同的角度来看待这个问题，并且有很多好的经验可以借鉴。

So your CTO is going to have a totally different way of looking at something and different concerns from your chief marketing officer to your head of design.

因此，从首席营销官到设计主管，您的首席技术官将采用完全不同的方式来看待某事，并关注不同的问题。

They're all going to look at things differently and be thinking about it differently.

他们都会以不同的方式看待事物并以不同的方式思考它。

And so if you know that you're going to be having a big impact in someone's space and you want to hear from them, it's good to set that meeting up early when you've got some clarity but it's not fully fleshed out and so that you can fold in some of their concerns because they'll have this much broader view.

因此，如果你知道你将对某人的领域产生重大影响，并且你想听取他们的意见，那么最好在你已经有了一定的了解但还没有完全充实的情况下尽早安排会议，这样你就可以考虑他们的一些担忧，因为他们会有更广阔的视野。

And that also creates people who will be an advocate for you once you get into that room, that final meeting.

一旦你进入那个房间，即最后一次会议，这也会创造出那些会成为你倡导者的人。

Megan Cook: So I think all of those in the lead up, there's a lot of lead up work to getting buy-in that makes sure that you have a good time in that meeting.

梅根·库克：所以我认为所有准备工作都需要做很多准备工作才能获得支持，以确保您在会议中度过愉快的时光。

Lenny: Just to maybe summarize so far, which you've shared, one is just...

莱尼：总结一下到目前为止，你所分享的，其中之一就是......

Basically it's lieu people in early, especially the person that it's going to impact most.

基本上是早期的人，尤其是那些受影响最大的人。

Megan Cook: I think in addition to that is having that mindset of being open to not necessarily coming up with the right solution, it's more about solving for the problem or the opportunity.

梅根·库克：我认为除了保持开放的心态之外，不一定能提出正确的解决方案，更多的是解决问题或机会。

So you want to be clear about your hypotheses and what are your facts and what are the principles you're using to make a decision and just be open to not necessarily ending up with the solution you thought would be best.

因此，您需要明确您的假设、您的事实是什么以及您用于做出决定的原则是什么，并且对不一定最终得到您认为最好的解决方案持开放态度。

Lenny: I imagine most people think they are always in that state, "I am very open to feedback.

莱尼：我想大多数人都认为他们总是处于这种状态，“我非常愿意接受反馈。

I am totally open-minded, but really they're not." Is there anything that you think would either convince someone you're actually not as open-minded as you seem or any advice for how to come across as more open-minded?

我完全持开放态度，但他们实际上并非如此。”您认为有什么可以让别人相信您实际上并不像您看起来那么开放，或者有什么建议可以让别人觉得您思想更开放？

Or is there anything that you see...

或者有什么你看到的...

I see this all the time.

我经常看到这个。

People think they're listening, but they're not.

人们以为自己在听，但其实并没有。

You should change.

你应该改变。

Megan Cook: I think one way to force yourself into that situation is to be clear about the hypotheses you have and the facts.

梅根·库克：我认为强迫自己陷入这种情况的一种方法是明确你的假设和事实。

So I think often people can present as, "This is absolutely the case.

所以我认为人们常常会说：“情况绝对如此。

This is what I know, and this is obviously the correct response to the situation." Where most of the time you've got a good set of data, you've got a good understanding with your knowledge of the space, but what is actually going to happen is a hypothesis.

这就是我所知道的，这显然是对这种情况的正确反应。”大多数时候，您拥有一组良好的数据，并且对该领域的知识有了很好的理解，但实际发生的情况只是一个假设。

There's always going to be something you don't know and oftentimes you don't know until you ship it.

总会有一些您不知道的事情，而且通常在发货之前您都不知道。

That is absolutely the best test of whether or not what you thought was going to happen will actually happen.

这绝对是检验你认为会发生的事情是否真的会发生的最好测试。

Megan Cook: And so I think when you come to the meeting going, okay, here's the top-back so we actually know, and here's the hypotheses and here's my plan to prove or disprove them, then you're exposing your idea for people to go, oh, here's more that I know about that hypotheses, or here's some data that you don't have or here's another way to think about it.

梅根·库克：所以我认为，当你来参加会议时，好吧，这是我们实际上知道的情况，这是假设，这是我证明或反驳它们的计划，然后你向人们展示你的想法，哦，这是我对假设的更多了解，或者这是你没有的一些数据，或者这是另一种思考方式。

I think people can feel like they're not going to be credible.

我认为人们会觉得自己不可信。

That you have to come in, you have to come in confident, you have to come in knowing exactly what that solution is going to be.

你必须进来，你必须充满信心，你必须确切地知道解决方案是什么。

But I usually find that if you come in there open and you're exposed, you're thinking and where you could use some help on perspectives, that actually that builds more credibility because everyone knows that you are not going to have all the answers and you're not going to be able to see the future.

但我通常发现，如果你敞开心扉，暴露在外，你就会思考，在观点上你可以在哪里使用一些帮助，这实际上会建立更多的可信度，因为每个人都知道你不会得到所有的答案，你也无法看到未来。

And so that can really help in building people's trust in you and that you know what you're doing.

因此，这确实有助于建立人们对你的信任，让你知道自己在做什么。

Lenny: Is there an example of that that comes to mind to make it even more real of either someone on your team doing that or you doing that?

莱尼：有没有一个例子可以让你的团队中某人这样做或你这样做更加真实？

Because I think it's still going to be hard for people to realize, "Hey, I'm not actually paying attention to anyone and I just want to convince them this idea is right.

因为我认为人们仍然很难意识到，“嘿，我实际上并没有关注任何人，我只是想让他们相信这个想法是正确的。

This is what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

Just come on, get out of my way.

来吧，别挡我的路。

Give me the okay."

给我好吧。”

Megan Cook: An example from my past is there was this potential acquisition that we could have made, and I was really, really keen on it because it would mean adding a whole bunch of much needed capability really quickly to the product.

梅根·库克：我过去的一个例子是，我们本来可以进行这项潜在的收购，我真的非常热衷于它，因为这意味着非常快速地向产品添加一大堆急需的功能。

And I just loved that momentum and I didn't see any other way that we could do this.

我就是喜欢这种势头，而且我没有看到任何其他方法可以做到这一点。

I'd looked at a bunch of other options about building it in-house and it just didn't seem possible.

我研究了许多有关内部构建它的其他选项，但它似乎不太可能。

And there were a few people that I needed to convince, my boss, but also the head of engineering for the area.

我需要说服一些人，我的老板，还有该领域的工程主管。

And when I took it to them, what I learned was the head of engineering was able to pull a bunch of people from other areas within the company to come and bolster this effort and who had all of the knowledge that we needed.

当我把它交给他们时，我了解到工程主管能够从公司其他领域召集一群人来支持这项工作，并且他们拥有我们需要的所有知识。

So what seemed like the impossible task, he actually had this extra knowledge to make possible.

所以，这看似不可能的任务，实际上他拥有额外的知识来实现​​。

Megan Cook: And in the end, acquisition or not, that doesn't really matter.

梅根·库克：最后，无论是否收购，这并不重要。

It's more about being able to get that value back to our customers.

更重要的是能够将这种价值回馈给我们的客户。

That's what we're solving for.

这就是我们要解决的问题。

And so it was really about coming back, not falling in love with that solution and that other company, it was just taking a step back and going, "Okay, well, really it's just what are we here to do?

所以这实际上是关于回来，而不是爱上那个解决方案和另一家公司，它只是后退一步，然后说：“好吧，好吧，这真的就是我们来这里的目的吗？

What's the real goal at the end of the day?"

归根结底，真正的目标是什么？”

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Is there anything else you wanted to share along these lines before I move on to a different topic?

在我继续讨论其他主题之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Megan Cook: The other thing I would say is that setting up the meeting when you finally get there can be really important as well.

梅根·库克：我要说的另一件事是，当你最终到达那里时安排会议也非常重要。

I often see people go in there and they've got a big document or a presentation or something and they just launch into it.

我经常看到人们走进去，他们有一份大文档或演示文稿或其他东西，然后他们就开始使用它。

They're really excited.

他们真的很兴奋。

But actually you want to take a step back and you want to be really clear on what are you looking for from that group.

但实际上你想退一步，你想真正清楚你想从这个群体中寻找什么。

You can ask for the decision, you can ask for feedback, you can ask for...

你可以要求决定，你可以要求反馈，你可以要求......

You can expose where you're not quite sure about something and you want them to be thinking about that angle in particular and helping test that hypothesis with what they know.

你可以揭露你对某件事不太确定的地方，你希望他们特别考虑这个角度，并用他们所知道的帮助检验这个假设。

And so setting that early, you can put that in people's heads as they read through your document or listen to the rest of the proposal.

因此，尽早设定，您可以在人们阅读您的文件或听取提案的其余部分时将其置于他们的脑海中。

Megan Cook: Then I find it's really useful to have a narrative that just encompasses everything that you're going to talk about.

梅根·库克：然后我发现有一个包含你要谈论的所有内容的叙述非常有用。

So just really brief, what's the current situation, what has changed and what are the implications that you now want to...

所以非常简单，目前的情况是什么，发生了什么变化以及您现在想要的影响是什么......

We mean we have a problem to solve and an opportunity that we can go after.

我们的意思是我们有一个问题需要解决，并且有一个我们可以追求的机会。

Megan Cook: And the last thing is just making sure you've got your data.

梅根·库克：最后一件事就是确保您拥有数据。

There's executives, there's people in the meeting.

有高管，有会议人员。

They're usually across a whole ton of stuff just hearing about...

他们通常只是听到一大堆东西……

Maybe they've got 10 proposals a day and they're across all different areas in the business, and so they're not going to have the detail that you do.

也许他们每天会收到 10 个提案，并且涉及业务的各个不同领域，因此他们不会像您那样了解详细信息。

So being really thoughtful about what you bring, what are the key points that are going to help them understand the situation as clearly as possible.

因此，要认真考虑你带来的东西，哪些要点可以帮助他们尽可能清楚地了解情况。

But then really knowing your data so that you can dive in more detail where they need it.

但随后真正了解您的数据，以便您可以在他们需要的地方进行更详细的研究。

And that also helps build your credibility and builds people's confidence in the plan to go ahead.

这也有助于建立您的信誉并增强人们对继续实施计划的信心。

Lenny: Would you mind just quickly summarizing these pieces of advice and then I was going to move on to another area of strength of yours that I hear?

莱尼：您介意快速总结一下这些建议，然后我将转向我听到的您的另一个优势领域吗？

Megan Cook: Yeah, sure.

梅根·库克：是的，当然。

So the first one is to find people who are affected negatively or positively or might have a really good point of view and partner with them as you develop the solution or the response to the current situation.

因此，第一个是找到受到负面或正面影响的人，或者可能有真正好的观点的人，并在制定解决方案或应对当前情况时与他们合作。

And the second one is to come at it with this mindset of being open, of being really key on what is the core problem or the value that you want to deliver, and just being open to how you get there and things that you don't know which might adjust along the way.

第二个是以开放的心态来实现这一目标，真正关注核心问题或你想要交付的价值是什么，并对你如何实现目标以及你不知道的事情可能会一路调整持开放态度。

And the last one is just setting up the meeting walls.

最后一项只是设置会议墙。

So coming in, making sure that it's very clear what you need.

因此，进来时请确保非常清楚您需要什么。

Do you need a decision or something like that?

您需要做出决定或类似的事情吗？

And making sure that you've got very good supporting data to build that credibility with your audience.

并确保您拥有非常好的支持数据来建立观众的可信度。

Lenny: Love it.

莱尼：喜欢。

This is where the term or the cliche of product managers asking, "But what problem are we trying to solve," comes from.

这就是产品经理问“但是我们要解决什么问题”这个术语或陈词滥调的来源。

But it comes from a really important place of always focusing on let's all align on here's the problem we're solving.

但这来自一个非常重要的地方，那就是始终关注我们正在解决的问题。

Because oftentimes as you chatted about, the biggest disagreements come from people just thinking they're solving different problems.

因为很多时候，当你们聊天时，最大的分歧来自于人们只是认为他们正在解决不同的问题。

And on that note, I have a Swag Store now, lennyswag.com, and we have stickers on there, a bunch of cliche PM terms including, "But what problem are we trying to solve?" And so I think that's...

就这一点而言，我现在有一个 Swag 商店，lennyswag.com，我们在那里贴了贴纸，上面有一堆陈词滥调的 PM 术语，包括“但是我们要解决什么问题？”所以我认为那是...

But it's rooted in, that's actually a really important question to ask.

但这实际上是一个非常重要的问题。

Sometimes you get annoying.

有时你会变得烦人。

Megan Cook: Yeah, that's such a good sticker to have front and center.

梅根·库克：是的，正面和中间的贴纸真是太好了。

Lenny: Just need that as a big sign.

莱尼：只是需要它作为一个大标志。

Maybe the sticker needs to be bigger.

也许贴纸需要更大。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Qom, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Qom、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。

By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Lenny: Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

Lenny：超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

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在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

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请访问vanta.com/lenny，即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Okay, something else that I hear you're incredibly good at, and it's actually related to all of these things we've been talking about, is the way someone described you is you're really good at fighting the good fight, which essentially is just doing the things that need to be done that aren't necessarily popular or that people are prioritizing right now.

莱尼：好吧，我听说你非常擅长另一件事，它实际上与我们一直在谈论的所有这些事情有关，就是有人描述你的方式，你真的很擅长为正义而战，这本质上只是做那些不一定受欢迎或人们现在优先考虑的需要做的事情。

I hear that you led to a big investment in CSAT at Atlassian because you just felt like this was the right way of doing it.

我听说您在 Atlassian 上对 CSAT 进行了大笔投资，因为您觉得这是正确的做法。

And there's a few other projects that came out of just like, "I'm just going to do the thing that needs to be done." Can you just talk about why that's important to you, what impact that sort of had, and then just how you actually successfully do that?

还有一些其他项目的结果就像是，“我只是要做需要做的事情。”您能否谈谈为什么这对您很重要，这会产生什么影响，以及您实际上是如何成功做到这一点的？

Obviously it ties into this skill of getting buy-in on stuff.

显然，这与获得事物认可的技能有关。

Megan Cook: I think that's a really good example actually, the CSAT example, because sometimes you can get caught up in let's add value, add value, add value to the product, but if the customer aren't satisfied with what you built, or in our case we found that one of the core reasons was the usability, it wasn't where it needed to be.

梅根·库克：我认为这实际上是一个很好的例子，CSAT 的例子，因为有时你可能会陷入让我们为产品增加价值、增加价值、增加价值的过程中，但是如果客户对你所构建的产品不满意，或者在我们的案例中，我们发现核心原因之一是可用性，但它没有达到需要的程度。

Then we can't access that value anyway.

那么无论如何我们都无法访问该值。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

And sometimes it can be hard to get investment for things like that because it's not like the shiny, exciting new thing.

有时，这类事情很难获得投资，因为它不像闪亮的、令人兴奋的新事物。

It's no, I want to work on the features we already have and improve those.

不，我想研究我们已有的功能并改进它们。

So it was about two years ago, our chief experience officer, he cared really deeply about improving our CSAT scores and asked me to look into it.

大约两年前，我们的首席体验官非常关心提高我们的 CSAT 分数，并要求我对此进行研究。

And this-

还有这个——

Lenny: Briefly explain CSAT real quick.

Lenny：快速简单地解释一下 CSAT。

Some people may not be familiar with that term.

有些人可能不熟悉这个词。

Megan Cook: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

梅根·库克：哦，是的，是的，绝对如此。

Of course.

当然。

CSAT means customer satisfaction.

CSAT 意味着客户满意度。

So for us, we actually have a survey so that we can measure CSAT and it just asks customers to rate how satisfied they are with the product and then different aspects so we can see for different tasks that they need to perform or different aspects of it, like the reliability or the speed or the usability.

因此，对我们来说，我们实际上进行了一项调查，以便我们可以衡量 CSAT，它只是要求客户对他们对产品的满意度进行评分，然后对不同方面进行评分，以便我们可以了解他们需要执行的不同任务或产品的不同方面，例如可靠性、速度或可用性。

How do customers feel about that?

客户对此有何感想？

Lenny: We actually had a podcast episode recently Judd, where we talking about NPS and how much there's data showing it's not actually a great predictor of anything, and he's a big fan of CSAT instead.

Lenny：贾德，我们最近有一期播客节目，我们谈论 NPS 以及有多少数据显示它实际上并不是任何事物的良好预测指标，而他却是 CSAT 的忠实粉丝。

So you could almost think of it as little replacement for NPS in a lot of cases.

因此，在很多情况下，您几乎可以将其视为 NPS 的替代品。

And I'm sorry, pushed you off track.

对不起，让你偏离了轨道。

Keep going.

继续前进。

Megan Cook: Yeah, no worries.

梅根·库克：是的，不用担心。

So he cared really deeply about this, asked me to look into it.

所以他非常关心这个问题，让我调查一下。

Even though this request was coming from the top, that doesn't mean that it gets any sort of funding.

尽管这个请求来自高层，但这并不意味着它得到了任何形式的资金。

So we went through a couple of different steps to see what was worth investing in here.

因此，我们采取了几个不同的步骤来看看这里什么值得投资。

First of all, I mentioned we had that survey and so we had really rich feedback.

首先，我提到我们进行了这项调查，因此我们得到了非常丰富的反馈。

So it's not just a rating, what we get, we get people talking about why they gave that rating and that can really help us zero in on what are the key aspects that's bringing this down.

因此，我们得到的不仅仅是一个评级，我们让人们谈论他们为什么给予该评级，这确实可以帮助我们将导致这种情况下降的关键方面归零。

And we also had great conversations with our customers.

我们还与客户进行了愉快的交谈。

It was the kinds of conversations that are really rich and really helpful, but so painful to listen to and go through because you're seeing somebody really struggle with something that you thought was going to bring them so much value.

这种对话非常丰富，非常有帮助，但听起来和经历起来却很痛苦，因为你看到有人真的在为一些你认为会给他们带来巨大价值的事情而挣扎。

Megan Cook: And then we had a look at, well, what is this going to impact?

梅根·库克：然后我们看看这会产生什么影响？

And so logically it's what we found was that usability was one of the key reasons, like I said.

从逻辑上讲，我们发现可用性是关键原因之一，就像我说的那样。

And logically, if your product is hard to use in places, if some of the core actions are hard for people to do, then a new user to that product or a new customer is going to have a longer ramp up time.

从逻辑上讲，如果您的产品在某些地方很难使用，如果人们很难执行某些核心操作，那么该产品的新用户或新客户将有更长的启动时间。

You've got a harder time showing them that there's value.

你很难向他们展示它的价值。

And even for an existing customer that's using your product really well, when they bring on a new user, that user might have a really hard time getting up to speed and using it and it just completely slows them down.

即使对于使用你的产品非常好的现有客户来说，当他们引入新用户时，该用户可能很难加快速度并使用它，这只会完全减慢他们的速度。

So from a business point of view, it can impact your new customer acquisition as well as your ability to expand.

因此，从业务角度来看，它会影响您的新客户获取以及扩展能力。

So there was some good revenue connections in there as well.

所以那里也有一些良好的收入联系。

Megan Cook: What I also found was that we have a lot of dependencies.

梅根·库克：我还发现我们有很多依赖性。

So we've got all of these platform teams and a lot of the improvements that would be really good to make to sort out this problem depended on many, many teams around Atlassian.

因此，我们拥有所有这些平台团队，并且许多非常适合解决这个问题的改进取决于 Atlassian 周围的许多团队。

And they all had different goals and other products that they had to serve too.

他们都有不同的目标，也必须提供其他产品。

I don't know if you've ever tried to align three or four different roadmaps so that the timing is just right to get some improvement through, but it's basically impossible.

我不知道您是否曾经尝试过调整三四个不同的路线图，以便在适当的时机进行一些改进，但这基本上是不可能的。

There was no way that was going to happen.

这种事不可能发生。

But we did find that they were really passionate about this area and improving usability.

但我们确实发现他们非常热衷于这个领域并提高可用性。

So we worked together to find a low cost way for those teams to help us make the changes that we need to, but they didn't have to bear the brunt of all the development costs.

因此，我们共同努力为这些团队找到一种低成本的方式来帮助我们进行所需的更改，但他们不必承担所有开发成本的重担。

Megan Cook: So each of those teams flipped forward, we call them a shepherd, so that as our developers came in and made changes in the code base that this shepherd would make sure that they weren't causing any issues and we're doing reviews and reviews of designs and things like that.

梅根·库克：所以每个团队都向前发展，我们称他们为牧羊人，这样当我们的开发人员进来并对代码库进行更改时，这个牧羊人将确保他们不会造成任何问题，我们正在对设计和类似的事情进行审查和审查。

And so getting that buy-in, finding the data to support the reason why this was important.

因此，要获得支持，找到数据来支持这一点的重要性。

And then we constructed the roadmap so that we found this sort of a low cost, very cheap way to have some impactful change early on.

然后我们构建了路线图，以便我们找到一种低成本、非常便宜的方式来尽早进行一些有影响力的改变。

I think that was really, really important.

我认为这真的非常非常重要。

And so we put together just some of the designs for what the experiences were going to look like.

因此，我们只是将一些设计放在一起，以实现体验的外观。

Megan Cook: So our head of design, Charlie Sutton at the moment has this great mantra of show don't tell.

梅根·库克（Megan Cook）：我们的设计主管查理·萨顿（Charlie Sutton）目前有一句“秀而不言”的伟大格言。

And in this case, it was just at the core of getting people excited because you could show the initial experience, you could show the pain, you could bring in a video of the customer trying to use it and what they thought of it.

在这种情况下，它只是让人们兴奋的核心，因为你可以展示最初的体验，你可以展示痛苦，你可以引入客户尝试使用它的视频以及他们的想法。

And that just really brought that emotional aspect to it.

这确实带来了情感方面的影响。

It helped get people on board on the issue, the new experience, which is just far and away molds better, might cut out like 20 clicks or whatever.

它帮助人们参与到这个问题中来，新的体验，显然是更好的，可能会减少 20 次点击或其他什么。

And so all that worked together to get the investment that we needed.

因此，所有这些都共同努力获得了我们所需的投资。

Megan Cook: I think the last thing that was useful there actually is that we started pretty small too.

梅根·库克：我认为最后一件有用的事情实际上是我们开始的规模也很小。

So I think if you have a hypothesis and you can start small, you can get that investment more easily, you can show success, you can always build on that in the future to get more and more.

所以我认为，如果你有一个假设，并且可以从小事做起，你就可以更容易地获得投资，你可以展示成功，你可以在未来以此为基础，获得越来越多的回报。

But in this case, we got about 40 people to come and join onto this.

但在这个例子中，我们有大约 40 个人来加入。

And then as we shipped things, we just made sure that it kept being quite small.

然后，当我们运送东西时，我们只是确保它保持很小。

And so we got that momentum really quickly.

所以我们很快就获得了这种势头。

We kept with regular updates, we kept up the excitement about what the team was doing.

我们保持定期更新，我们对团队正在做的事情保持兴奋。

Megan Cook: At one stage, the team picked out something that was pretty impactful throughout the whole thing.

梅根·库克：在某个阶段，团队挑选了一些对整个过程非常有影响力的东西。

So that was dark mode.

这就是黑暗模式。

That took a lot of coordination around the whole company to make that thing happen.

整个公司需要进行大量协调才能实现这一目标。

But it was well overdue, we loved it.

但它姗姗来迟，我们很喜欢它。

And then the feedback that we got as well really helps with that.

我们得到的反馈也确实对此有所帮助。

Actually just yesterday, I saw some feedback on one of the changes we'd made recently, and this customer said it was the best quality of life improvement they've seen in a long time, which just the way that's phrased even, that gets you excited about the impact that you're having on that person.

事实上，就在昨天，我看到了一些关于我们最近做出的一项改变的反馈，这位客户说这是他们长期以来看到的最好的生活质量改善，甚至用措辞的方式来说，这让你对你对那个人产生的影响感到兴奋。

Lenny: And this was the CSAT work or the dark mode?

Lenny：这是 CSAT 作品还是黑暗模式？

Megan Cook: This was CSAT work.

Megan Cook：这是 CSAT 的工作。

This was improving one of the processes.

这是改进其中一个流程。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

There's a lot of stuff I love about this story.

这个故事有很多我喜欢的东西。

One is just the power of just empowering yourself to do things that you believe need to be done.

其中之一就是赋予自己力量去做你认为需要做的事情。

There's a lot of PMs and just people in general that just assume they don't have any power and the square peg they're in is just all they're going to be able to do and nobody's going to allow them to do things that they believe are important and no one else agrees with.

有很多项目经理和一般人只是假设他们没有任何权力，他们所处的方格钉子就是他们所能做的一切，没有人会允许他们做他们认为重要且没有人同意的事情。

So I think there's just a lot of power in just understanding that you have more power and leverage and agency than you probably think you do, but then you also have to do it well.

所以我认为，只要明白你拥有比你想象的更多的权力、影响力和代理权，就会有很大的力量，但你也必须做得很好。

So I took a bunch of notes as you were talking of the things that I think are core to getting stuff like this done, just a scrappy project that you're kind of doing on your own without a lot of buy-in from the top initially.

所以当你谈论我认为完成这样的事情的核心事情时，我记下了一堆笔记，这只是一个你自己做的杂乱的项目，最初没有得到高层的大量支持。

Lenny: So I want to stay small.

莱尼：所以我想保持小规模。

Two is make it visual and visceral so you can like, "Oh wow, I could see this being amazing," and getting people excited as you go.

二是让它变得视觉化和发自内心，这样你就会喜欢，“哇哦，我发现这太棒了”，并让人们在你做的过程中感到兴奋。

Making it really easy for people I think is a really interesting takeaway there.

我认为让人们变得非常容易是一个非常有趣的收获。

Just like, "We did all the work for you already for these other teams, it's going to be so easy.

就像，“我们已经为其他团队完成了所有工作，这将非常容易。

It's not going to be a lot of work for you." And then showed the data like, "Here's what we've gotten from CSAT so far, here's the impact you'll probably get from it.

这对你来说不会有很多工作。”然后显示这样的数据：“这是迄今为止我们从 CSAT 获得的信息，这是您可能从中获得的影响。

Here's how much work it'll take." Show actual data.

这是需要做多少工作。”显示实际数据。

And then keep it scrappy.

然后保持斗志旺盛。

It feels like a lot of this is just like stay small, keep it scrappy, don't ask for a lot of resources initially and just kind of show momentum.

感觉很多事情就像保持小规模，保持斗志，一开始不要要求大量资源，只是表现出动力。

Megan Cook: I think that's really important.

梅根·库克：我认为这非常重要。

When you keep it scrappy and small in the beginning, it doesn't feel like it's as big of a bet, but that gives you the opportunity to really prove that the direction that you're going in could pay off.

当你一开始就保持斗志昂扬、规模较小时，你会觉得这不是一个很大的赌注，但这让你有机会真正证明你所选择的方向可以得到回报。

And so it's sort of like this little inroad to getting more investment.

所以这有点像获得更多投资的小进步。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

I want to move to a different topic around Atlassian as a company, but is there anything else you wanted to share along those lines before we do that?

我想谈谈有关 Atlassian 公司的另一个话题，但在我们这样做之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

One of the most interesting things about Atlassian to me is it's a great example of a company that's been able to launch new product lines.

对我来说，Atlassian 最有趣的事情之一是它是一家能够推出新产品线的公司的一个很好的例子。

This is the dream of every software company business in general is you start with one product that gets to a certain point and then you hit some kind of plateau, and then you add an additional business product line, and then you add more and more.

这是每个软件公司业务的梦想，一般来说，你从一种产品开始，达到某一点，然后达到某种稳定水平，然后添加额外的业务产品线，然后添加越来越多的产品线。

Somewhere around Atlassian's 15 products.

Atlassian 的 15 种产品。

Is that an accurate number?

这是一个准确的数字吗？

Megan Cook: Yeah, that's right.

梅根·库克：是的，没错。

Yeah, we are up to 15.

是的，我们已经到了15个了。

Yes.

是的。

Lenny: Jesus Christ.

莱尼：天哪。

Amazing.

惊人的。

So this is very rare and the dream of many companies.

所以这是非常难得的，也是很多企业的梦想。

And so I'm just curious what it is you think Atlassian has done so right to have so many successful individual products?

所以我只是很好奇，您认为 Atlassian 做得如此正确，拥有如此多成功的个人产品，是什么？

Megan Cook: You know what, it's not like we added the first product and got it just right way off the bat.

梅根·库克：你知道吗，我们并不是添加了第一个产品并立即就得到了它。

So yeah, 15, we've had a lot of shots at this, so I might talk about two examples.

是的，15，我们对此进行了很多尝试，所以我可以谈谈两个例子。

I think the first one, if I think about Jira software, it started just as a really humble bug tracker.

我认为第一个，如果我考虑一下 Jira 软件，它一开始只是一个非常不起眼的错误跟踪器。

That was it.

就是这样。

There wasn't as much to it, and then it sort of weathered these massive changes in how people build software.

没有那么多，然后它就经受住了人们构建软件方式的巨大变化。

So it launched in 2003.

所以它于2003年推出。

And if I remember correctly, just to date this, the mobile phone that was most popular at the time was the Nokia 6100.

如果我没记错的话，到目前为止，当时最流行的手机是诺基亚 6100。

I don't know if you ever had one of those.

我不知道你是否有过这样的经历。

Lenny: I don't remember what that specific one was, but I'm picturing a Nokia phone.

莱尼：我不记得具体是什么，但我想象的是一部诺基亚手机。

It's like a little small brick.

它就像一块小砖头。

Megan Cook: Yeah, it was my mother-in-law's favorite phone.

梅根·库克：是的，这是我岳母最喜欢的手机。

It took us forever to get her off that onto something better.

我们花了很长时间才让她摆脱困境，转向更好的事情。

But there's a lot that's changed since that time.

但自那时以来发生了很多变化。

There's been agile, there's been cloud.

有敏捷，有云。

And what we saw recently was more in the expansion of software teams.

而我们最近看到的更多是软件团队的扩张。

So they used to be extremely developer centric.

所以他们曾经非常以开发人员为中心。

And I think most people when they think about Jira software, they think, oh, that must be, well, 80% developers that are using it.

我认为大多数人在想到 Jira 软件时都会想，哦，那一定是 80% 的开发人员在使用它。

But actually it's more like 50% or maybe just shy of 50% are developers.

但实际上，大约 50% 甚至不到 50% 是开发人员。

And the rest is this huge mix of support in operations, in sales and marketing, finance, design, HR, legal, just this massive mix of everybody, all the roles you could think of in a company basically that get in there and make work happen.

剩下的就是运营、销售和营销、财务、设计、人力资源、法律等方面的巨大支持，每个人的巨大组合，你能想到的公司中的所有角色基本上都参与其中并让工作发生。

Megan Cook: And so what we saw years ago was, well, software teams aren't just developers anymore.

梅根·库克：所以我们几年前看到的是，软件团队不再只是开发人员。

And we saw this in our teams as well, but we saw that these other teams, the finance, the marketing teams, even design teams were sort of cobbling together their own solutions.

我们在我们的团队中也看到了这一点，但我们看到其他团队，财务、营销团队，甚至设计团队都在拼凑自己的解决方案。

So Jira software is incredibly flexible, which is a massive pro of it.

所以 Jira 软件非常灵活，这是它的一个巨大优点。

That these teams were seeing software teams get more effective at the way they were getting work done and collaborating better.

这些团队看到软件团队在完成工作和协作方面变得更加高效。

And they wanted that same benefit and they started using Jira, but we hadn't set it up well for them at all.

他们想要同样的好处，他们开始使用 Jira，但我们根本没有为他们做好设置。

So it was quite difficult for them to do that.

所以他们要做到这一点是非常困难的。

But the positive was that there was this really good signal from our users that they were looking for more from us, and we knew that your marketing team is going to work differently from your developer team.

但积极的一面是，我们的用户发出了非常好的信号，表明他们正在向我们寻求更多服务，而且我们知道您的营销团队将与开发团队以不同的方式工作。

That's how it should be.

事情应该是这样的。

And so we started Jira work management to be more focused on all of these other use cases outside of the software team that our users were asking us to go ahead and solve.

因此，我们启动了 Jira 工作管理，以更加关注软件团队之外的所有其他用例，而我们的用户要求我们继续解决这些用例。

Megan Cook: So that was a really great way to discover the need for a new product.

梅根·库克：所以这是发现新产品需求的一个非常好的方法。

Were these really strong signals from within our customers in that same area of business that we're really well set up to help them learn.

这些来自同一业务领域的客户内部的强烈信号是否真的很强烈，我们真的已经做好了帮助他们学习的准备。

Lenny: What was that process like from noticing, "Hey, designers are using Jira and they're not having a good time.

Lenny：当注意到“嘿，设计师正在使用 Jira，但他们玩得不开心时，这个过程是怎样的？

PMs are using Jira, researchers, and here's the issues they're running." So just that insight of like, "Oh, interesting.

产品经理正在使用 Jira，研究人员，这是他们正在处理的问题。”所以就像这样的洞察力，“哦，有趣。

There might be an opportunity here to launching." I don't know the first version.

这里可能有一个启动的机会。”我不知道第一个版本。

I don't know if you're actually involved in this, but whatever you can share would be awesome.

我不知道你是否真的参与了这件事，但无论你能分享什么，都会很棒。

Where there design partners they all chose and like let's work with Salesforce and Microsoft and make sure they love it?

他们都选择并喜欢的设计合作伙伴在哪里？让我们与 Salesforce 和 Microsoft 合作并确保他们喜欢它？

How long was that process?

这个过程花了多长时间？

Because I think that's the prop people are so curious about just how do we validate and discover and then actually launch something that's going to work.

因为我认为这就是人们对我们如何验证和发现然后真正推出一些可行的东西感到好奇的支柱。

Megan Cook: Yeah, I was just as close to that one, but I can give you a second example.

梅根·库克：是的，我也很接近那个例子，但我可以给你举第二个例子。

Megan Cook: Yeah, for sure.

梅根·库克：是的，当然。

The second example actually came from our product internal innovation program and that we let anyone pitch an idea for new product in the company if they want to.

第二个例子实际上来自我们的产品内部创新计划，我们允许任何人在公司中提出新产品的想法，如果他们愿意的话。

So we had this wonderful product manager, Tammy Carson, who saw a demand for a solution for product managers to build their roadmaps a bit better before ideas get committed.

因此，我们有了一位出色的产品经理 Tammy Carson，她看到了产品经理对解决方案的需求，以便在想法落实之前更好地制定路线图。

So as you know, this is fuzzy area before you actually start building something as a product manager where you're looking at lots of opportunities and ideas and you're prioritizing them.

如您所知，在您作为产品经理真正开始构建某些东西之前，这是一个模糊区域，您会看到很多机会和想法，并确定它们的优先级。

And it's not really confirmed real work yet.

而且它还没有真正证实真正的工作。

And nobody wanted to put that in Jira because once it was in Jira, then everyone just expected it to happen.

没有人愿意将其放入 Jira 中，因为一旦放入 Jira 中，每个人都期望它会发生。

And so this is where Jira product discovery came from.

这就是 Jira 产品发现的由来。

Megan Cook: And in the past we'd tried things like this before in new products at Atlassian and they've been successful, but it'd been really hard because large parts of the company process and those checks were optimizing for the success of the bigger products like Jira software.

Megan Cook：过去，我们在 Atlassian 的新产品中尝试过类似的方法，并且取得了成功，但这真的很困难，因为公司流程和这些检查的大部分都是为了 Jira 软件等更大产品的成功而优化。

And so we changed that to create really small groups with stage gates that we call wonder, explore, make, impact, and then getting to scale.

因此，我们改变了这一点，创建了具有舞台大门的非常小的团体，我们称之为奇迹、探索、制造、影响，然后扩大规模。

And that meant to assess those bets at every stage.

这意味着在每个阶段都要评估这些赌注。

And the idea was to iterate really quickly, either to it not working out and proving that it couldn't be a business or iterate really quickly to yes it could and we should invest more in this.

我们的想法是非常快速地迭代，要么它不起作用并证明它不可能成为一项业务，要么非常快速地迭代以证明它可以，我们应该在这方面投入更多。

And so with each stage there would be a little bit of investment.

因此，每个阶段都会有一点投资。

Megan Cook: So you say that for a stage of wonder might just be the person with the idea.

梅根·库克：所以你说，在一个阶段，奇迹可能只是有这个想法的人。

And then explore, you might add on a couple more people, like three people to go and really have a look at, here's a prototype, here are some customers that'd be interested in it and could help us think about this some more and put together what the roadmap looks like.

然后探索，你可能会增加更多的人，比如三个人去真正看看，这是一个原型，这是一些对此感兴趣的客户，可以帮助我们更多地思考这个问题，并将路线图放在一起。

And then when you get to make that's when you get a full team, but a full team is going to be 12 people or so, it's still not huge.

当你做到这一点时，你就会拥有一个完整的团队，但一个完整的团队将有 12 人左右，它仍然不是很大。

And I think that's really important because at each stage you're getting validation, you're getting more customers who are interested and invested in helping you develop what that solution looks like.

我认为这非常重要，因为在每个阶段你都会得到验证，你会吸引更多有兴趣并投资帮助你开发解决方案的客户。

Megan Cook: You asked about whether we went and partnered with a partner company like Salesforce for something like this, for a new product.

Megan Cook：您问我们是否与 Salesforce 这样的合作伙伴公司合作开发类似的新产品。

In this case it was just really partnering heavily with our customers where we saw that interest coming through in our other products like Jira software and building something that really works for them before expanding it to more and more customers and finding that product market fit and then upping the investment.

在这种情况下，它只是与我们的客户密切合作，我们看到他们对 Jira 软件等其他产品产生了兴趣，并构建了真正适合他们的产品，然后将其扩展到越来越多的客户，找到适合市场的产品，然后增加投资。

And so we've had a couple of new products recently that have gone through that sort of stage rollout.

因此，我们最近推出了一些新产品，它们已经经历了此类阶段性的推出。

So there's Jira Product Discovery, there's Atlas that I mentioned before, and I think Compass is the latest one.

所以有 Jira Product Discovery，有我之前提到的 Atlas，我认为 Compass 是最新的。

Lenny: So what I'm hearing here is essentially there's this step-by-step gated process that you put new product ideas through and they make it one step at a time.

莱尼：所以我在这里听到的本质上是一个逐步封闭的过程，你将新的产品创意付诸实践，他们一次一步地实现它。

And I imagine there's a leader that can decide, "No, this one's not working out.

我想有一个领导者可以决定：“不，这个不行。

Let's end it at the explorer phase and invest in other ideas." I imagine

让我们在探索阶段结束并投资其他想法。”我想象

Megan Cook: Yeah, that's right.

梅根·库克：是的，没错。

It might be someone who's looking after that particular market.

可能是有人在照顾那个特定的市场。

At each one of those stages, there's that check on whether or not we continue to go ahead.

在每个阶段，都会检查我们是否继续前进。

Lenny: And the stages are wonder.

莱尼：舞台很精彩。

I like that a lot.

我非常喜欢这样。

That's a great name.

这是一个很棒的名字。

Explore, make, and then what were the other ones?

探索、创造，然后其他的是什么？

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So impact is like is it showing any impact?

那么影响就像它显示出任何影响一样吗？

We made it, is it working?

我们做到了，它有效吗？

And then scale.

然后规模化。

Got it.

知道了。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Just like let's go for it.

就像我们一起努力吧。

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

Impact could be I can be self-sufficient in the revenue that I'm generating, and scale is just really launching it to take off.

影响可能是我可以在我产生的收入上自给自足，而规模只是真正启动它的起飞。

Lenny: Launch it.

莱尼：启动它。

Yeah, it goes on the website.

是的，它在网站上。

Okay.

好的。

So wonder is like a PM and an engineer maybe at Hackathon where we have an idea.

所以，奇迹就像一个项目经理和一个工程师，也许在黑客马拉松上我们有一个想法。

Explore is they maybe get a little bit of resourcing and they start exploring the idea, build the prototype, maybe find a design partner too, to think about this.

探索是他们可能会获得一点资源，然后他们开始探索这个想法，构建原型，也许也找到一个设计合作伙伴来思考这个问题。

Is that roughly right?

大致是这样吗？

Megan Cook: Make sure you've got a clear roadmap.

梅根·库克：确保你有一个清晰的路线图。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Okay, got it.

莱尼：好的，明白了。

And then make, is that where they expand it to a few more customers and make it more fully featured?

然后，他们是否可以将其扩展到更多客户并使其功能更全面？

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

Make is where you'd actually build it.

Make 是您实际构建它的地方。

So the prototype-

所以原型——

Megan Cook: ...

梅根·库克：...

could be pretty simple, could be a bit cobbled together, make is actually building the product and see if you can get more and more customers.

可能非常简单，也可能有点拼凑起来，制作实际上是在构建产品，看看是否可以吸引越来越多的客户。

Megan Cook: That's where you'd start to make it with those customers.

梅根·库克：这就是你开始与这些客户合作的地方。

Lenny: This is really interesting because again, I think Atlassian is one of the very few companies that has done this so well.

Lenny：这真的很有趣，因为我认为 Atlassian 是极少数在这方面做得如此出色的公司之一。

And I don't know, this number is absurd.

我不知道，这个数字很荒谬。

I've never heard of another company that's 15 successful products.

我从未听说过哪家公司拥有 15 种成功的产品。

I don't know how successful they're, but they're out there and people seem to be...

我不知道他们有多成功，但他们就在那里，人们似乎……

They're being promoted.

他们正在升职。

I guess is there any other advice to share along the lines of if someone is thinking about launching a second product, anything you would suggest they do or think about they may not be thinking about?

我想是否还有其他建议可以分享，如果有人正在考虑推出第二个产品，您会建议他们做或考虑他们可能没有考虑的任何事情？

Megan Cook: I think my advice is skied towards the Atlassian case, which is where you're in a 12,000 strong employee company and how do you seed something that you want to run as more with more of a startup kind of mindset.

Megan Cook：我认为我的建议是针对 Atlassian 的案例，即你在一家拥有 12,000 名员工的公司中，如何播种你想要以更多创业心态来运营的东西。

So when you get to this size, you've got quarterly planning and business reviews and all of these different process and you don't necessarily want to put your seed startup through that.

因此，当您达到这种规模时，您需要进行季度规划和业务审查以及所有这些不同的流程，并且您不一定想让您的种子初创公司经历这些。

It's not quite ready for that kind of thing.

它还没有准备好应对此类事情。

So I think the key things here that make it really successful is starting really small with the idea and the solution to be proved and don't add too many people, don't feel pressured to add too many people.

因此，我认为使其真正成功的关键是从很小的想法和待证明的解决方案开始，不要添加太多人员，不要感到增加太多人员的压力。

I think it's easy to get really excited about the potential and just want to throw four or five teams at it, but that can...

我认为人们很容易对潜力感到非常兴奋，只想投入四到五个团队，但这可能......

We were talking about this stat.

我们正在谈论这个统计数据。

That can make things run slower and so you want to protect them.

这会让事情运行得更慢，所以你想保护它们。

Megan Cook: And the second thing is just give them freedom to move really fast and solve those problems in a different way.

梅根·库克：第二件事就是给他们自由，让他们能够快速行动并以不同的方式解决这些问题。

So there are different expectations.

所以会有不同的期望。

They don't necessarily need to be a part of that process that I was talking about before.

它们不一定需要成为我之前讨论的过程的一部分。

This team should just be running hard to prove whether or not the idea's going to work and whether there's product market fit.

这个团队应该努力证明这个想法是否可行以及产品是否适合市场。

Megan Cook: And for different approaches.

梅根·库克：还有不同的方法。

If I want to add something to Jira software, but we're talking millions and millions of users there, that thing has to be resilient.

如果我想在 Jira 软件中添加一些东西，但我们谈论的是数以百万计的用户，那么该东西必须具有弹性。

It's got to scale.

它必须规模化。

There are all these things that users inherently expect from something like that.

用户本质上期望从类似的东西中获得所有这些东西。

But for something small like this, we are proving product market fit.

但对于像这样的小事情，我们正在证明产品的市场契合度。

You don't need to think about that initially.

一开始你不需要考虑这一点。

So you've got to hold this to a different standard, otherwise you're just going to slow them down way too much.

所以你必须保持这个不同的标准，否则你只会让他们放慢太多。

Megan Cook: And actually we found that by letting them tackle problems a little differently, we found innovative way of looking at things that we can pull back into our other products.

梅根·库克：实际上我们发现，通过让他们以稍微不同的方式解决问题，我们找到了看待事物的创新方式，我们可以将其重新引入到我们的其他产品中。

So for example, if you look at Jira Product Discovery, and just the way that it gives more of a spreadsheet kind of view of a list of ideas and things like that, some of the experience there is definitely something that we'll be pulling into Jira software.

举例来说，如果您查看 Jira Product Discovery，它提供了更多想法列表和类似内容的电子表格视图，其中的一些经验肯定是我们将引入 Jira 软件中的。

Lenny: You mentioned that over the years, Jira has weathered many storms.

Lenny：您提到这些年来，Jira 经历了很多风雨。

From my perspective, it feels like it continues to weather many storms incredibly well.

从我的角度来看，感觉它继续很好地经受住了许多风暴。

One, because there's just endless startups always coming at Jira trying to become the new project management tool that everyone uses.

第一，因为总是有无数的初创公司涌入 Jira，试图成为每个人都使用的新项目管理工具。

And two, it just feels like people are always dissing on Jira like, "Jira sucks, I want to use something else." On the other hand, it continues to dominate.

第二，感觉人们总是在贬低 Jira，比如“Jira 很糟糕，我想用别的东西。”另一方面，它继续占据主导地位。

Many people love it.

很多人都喜欢它。

I'm curious what you believe Atlassian generally has done and your team has done to keep Jira ahead of everyone.

我很好奇您认为 Atlassian 通常做了什么以及您的团队做了什么才能让 Jira 领先于所有人。

And I know you're probably going to say, "We listen to customers better than anyone." So if that's a big part of the answer, definitely share that.

我知道您可能会说：“我们比任何人都更能倾听客户的意见。”因此，如果这是答案的重要组成部分，请务必分享。

But I'm curious, is there anything else people may not be recognizing of just why Jira has been so successful for so long?

但我很好奇，还有什么事情人们可能没有认识到 Jira 长期以来如此成功的原因吗？

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

I think the number of startups that enter this space, just so it shows how important the problem is that we solve and that problem of teamwork and collaboration.

我认为进入这个领域的初创公司数量足以表明我们解决的问题以及团队合作和协作问题的重要性。

We've got more than 125,000 customers around the world who start their day in Jira, millions of users and the kinds of companies that use it.

我们在全球范围内拥有超过 125,000 名在 Jira 中开始新的一天的客户、数百万用户以及使用 Jira 的各类公司。

I just love hearing about what they do with it.

我只是喜欢听听他们用它做了什么。

They really blow me away.

他们真的让我大吃一惊。

Like NASA landing the Mars rover or Canva building this design platform for 40 million people, it's just massive.

就像 NASA 登陆火星探测器或 Canva 为 4000 万人构建这个设计平台一样，它的规模非常庞大。

Lenny: I don't think you can beat that Mars rover story array.

莱尼：我认为你无法击败火星漫游者的故事系列。

That's a good one.

这是一件好事。

I think when you follow it up with the Canvas story, that one's less interesting now, but it's also amazing.

我认为，当你继续关注 Canvas 的故事时，这个故事现在不再那么有趣了，但它也很令人惊奇。

Okay.

好的。

Sorry.

对不起。

Keep going.

继续前进。

Megan Cook: So like you said, they are integral to our success.

梅根·库克：就像你说的，它们是我们成功不可或缺的一部分。

We do obsess over them.

我们确实对它们着迷。

We think if we do right by them, then we're going to be going in the right direction.

我们认为，如果我们按照他们的要求行事，那么我们就会朝着正确的方向前进。

I don't think we've ever had this sense of arrogance of just...

我不认为我们曾经有过这种傲慢的感觉……

No matter how big we are, we've always got this healthy dose of paranoia that we need to keep working on improving things and being better.

无论我们规模有多大，我们总是会有这种健康的偏执，我们需要继续努力改进事物并变得更好。

So to your point about customer feedback, that is a big part of it.

因此，就您关于客户反馈的观点而言，这是其中的重要组成部分。

We bake in these rituals just to make it super easy for everyone to do that.

我们加入这些仪式只是为了让每个人都可以非常轻松地做到这一点。

So the whole company gets an email every week and it's just got a random selection of feedback from our customers.

因此，整个公司每周都会收到一封电子邮件，其中只是从我们的客户那里随机选择的反馈。

It's got how they rate us and just a quote as well.

其中包含他们对我们的评价以及报价。

And so everyone's sort of getting this dose of feedback all the time.

所以每个人都会一直得到这种反馈。

Megan Cook: We have regular share outs of all of the research that everyone gets.

梅根·库克：我们定期分享每个人获得的所有研究成果。

We get in-product feedback.

我们得到产品内的反馈。

We make it super easy to talk to our customers through social media or LinkedIn or X now.

现在，我们让通过社交媒体、LinkedIn 或 X 与客户交谈变得非常容易。

And then we also have a whole community space where customers can have longer conversations with us about different ideas that we're coming up with or feedback that they have for us.

然后，我们还有一个完整的社区空间，客户可以与我们就我们提出的不同想法或他们对我们的反馈进行更长时间的对话。

So I think that is all massively important for keeping Jira ahead of the pack.

所以我认为这对于保持 Jira 的领先地位非常重要。

Megan Cook: I think how we stay ahead in other areas is just that the culture is super, super open to innovation, kind of invites innovation.

梅根·库克：我认为我们在其他领域保持领先的原因在于我们的文化是超级的，对创新超级开放，有点邀请创新。

So we have these hackathons, we call them shepherd.

所以我们举办了这些黑客马拉松，我们称之为牧羊人。

The whole company stops and everyone can play with new ideas or technologies.

整个公司都停下来，每个人都可以尝试新的想法或技术。

It's a competition.

这是一场比赛。

So the best ideas get visibility.

所以最好的想法会得到关注。

It can get people working with other people that they wouldn't normally.

它可以让人们与其他人一起工作，这是他们通常不会做的。

And also the visibility of the ideas helps generate more ideas all over the place.

而且想法的可见性有助于在各地产生更多想法。

Megan Cook: Like I said before, innovation can come from anywhere.

梅根·库克：就像我之前说过的，创新可以来自任何地方。

So anyone can pitch new ideas or products.

因此任何人都可以提出新的想法或产品。

And when we see new technologies emerging that we think are going to be really foundational and interesting, we'll carve off a team to go and look at that.

当我们看到我们认为非常基础且有趣的新技术出现时，我们将组建一个团队来研究它。

So I think we've had an AI team central to Atlassian for a long time, but with the advent of ChatGPT, there's sort of this huge move forward.

因此，我认为我们长期以来一直拥有以 Atlassian 为中心的人工智能团队，但随着 ChatGPT 的出现，出现了巨大的进步。

There's this leak that's happening.

正在发生这种泄漏。

And so in my team, I just carved off a small team to go and explore that and see what interesting things that we could do there.

因此，在我的团队中，我刚刚组建了一个小团队去探索这一点，看看我们可以在那里做哪些有趣的事情。

Megan Cook: I think we don't shy away from tackling subsets of the market that we're seeing that need a bit more love, like the Jira Product Discovery story that we were just talking about a second ago.

Megan Cook：我认为我们不会回避解决我们认为需要更多关爱的市场子集，例如我们刚才谈论的 Jira 产品发现故事。

And we also use our products a lot and that helps us find all of those little problems and makes it really real.

我们也经常使用我们的产品，这有助于我们发现所有这些小问题并使之成为现实。

We get really excited about the different things that the whole team is working on.

我们对整个团队正在做的不同事情感到非常兴奋。

We send lots of feedback to each other.

我们互相发送大量反馈。

I think that's also a really important part of it.

我认为这也是其中非常重要的一部分。

Megan Cook: Another area is when we look at how we're investing, there's always this pressure to invest in the core business, of course, but we also make sure that we invest in seeding future businesses.

梅根·库克：另一个领域是，当我们考虑如何投资时，当然总是存在投资核心业务的压力，但我们也确保投资于未来业务的种子。

And like we're talking about, they might not always work out.

正如我们所说，它们可能并不总是有效。

So we had then the Compass and the Atlas example of ones that have worked out, but we also see things through Atlassian inventions.

因此，我们有指南针和 Atlas 的例子，但我们也通过 Atlassian 的发明来看待事物。

So if there are interesting ideas or technologies, these might support the products later on, that's something that we'll go and seed out there in the market.

因此，如果有有趣的想法或技术，它们可能会支持以后的产品，这就是我们将在市场上播种的东西。

And that's led to a few acquisitions there as well, which has been really useful.

这也导致了一些收购，这非常有用。

Megan Cook: And the last thing is I think I am just really impressed at the way that we stay agile to move towards these different shifts that come up.

梅根·库克：最后一件事是，我认为我们保持敏捷以应对出现的这些不同转变的方式给我留下了深刻的印象。

It always surprises me just how agile we can be.

我们的敏捷程度总是让我感到惊讶。

For example, in 2020 we decided to double down on our mission to deliver a world-class cloud experience.

例如，2020 年，我们决定加倍努力实现提供世界一流云体验的使命。

And it was like hundreds of people just moved around in Atlassian to make that happen, which was in a very short period of time, which was impressive.

就好像有数百人在 Atlassian 中移动来实现这一目标，这是在很短的时间内完成的，这令人印象深刻。

And we're not shy about killing things off with their .

我们并不羞于用他们的 .

So I'll give you another example of one of those products that was going through that we ended up killing off.

因此，我将再给大家举一个例子，展示我们正在经历但最终被淘汰的产品之一。

So we had a whiteboard product that we thought would be its own product, sort of like a Jira Product Discovery.

因此，我们有一个白板产品，我们认为它会是自己的产品，有点像 Jira Product Discovery。

And when we came to one of those gates with the team, we realized actually this is more a really useful document type.

当我们与团队一起来到其中一个大门时，我们意识到实际上这是一种非常有用的文档类型。

And so now you'll see that it's a feature in Confluence.

现在您将看到它是 Confluence 中的一项功能。

It was very quick to make that decision.

我们很快就做出了这个决定。

Lenny: I have this new segment, not that new anymore, called Failure Corner.

莱尼：我有一个新的部分，不再那么新了，叫做“失败角落”。

I'm curious if you have any interesting story of a big failure in your career.

我很好奇你是否有任何关于职业生涯中重大失败的有趣故事。

And if you do, what you learned from that experience?

如果你这样做了，你从这次经历中学到了什么？

Megan Cook: I think I'll give you a bit of a different one because I think this one is harder to spot and I think that's really interesting.

梅根·库克：我想我会给你一个有点不同的，因为我认为这个更难发现，而且我认为这真的很有趣。

It's something that I think about all the time though.

但这是我一直在思考的事情。

So I missed a really big opportunity to move Atlassian forward back in the day.

所以我错过了一个推动 Atlassian 向前发展的绝佳机会。

And I, like I said, think about it every time I review a new idea or look at an opportunity that we're thinking about.

正如我所说，每次我回顾一个新想法或寻找我们正在考虑的机会时，我都会考虑这一点。

Megan Cook: So I was on this team and I was improving the way that our products help developers get their work done.

梅根·库克：所以我加入了这个团队，我正在改进我们的产品帮助开发人员完成工作的方式。

And so typically we saw them start in Jira software.

因此，我们通常会看到它们从 Jira 软件开始。

They'd pick up a piece of work and then they'd switch tools.

他们会拿起一项工作，然后更换工具。

They'd create a brand, they'd start writing code.

他们会创建一个品牌，他们会开始编写代码。

And we noticed that they would forget to come back and update the status of their work and this could create a lot of confusion in the team.

我们注意到他们会忘记回来更新他们的工作状态，这可能会在团队中造成很多混乱。

Another developer could pick up that work thinking it wasn't started and then there was a lot of wasted time.

另一个开发人员可能会认为该工作尚未开始而接手该工作，然后就浪费了很多时间。

Or if you're trying to track metrics like how long does it take for a piece of work to get started through to done?

或者，如果您试图跟踪指标，例如一项工作从开始到完成需要多长时间？

That'll totally ski things.

那将完全滑雪。

So this was causing a lot of problems.

所以这导致了很多问题。

Megan Cook: But we didn't want to make developers come back into the tool that was obviously something that was getting in the way of their work.

梅根·库克：但我们不想让开发人员重新使用该工具，这显然会妨碍他们的工作。

So we decided to build automation so they didn't have to leave their ID or the command line to do that.

因此，我们决定构建自动化，这样他们就不必留下自己的 ID 或命令行来执行此操作。

They can just keep working.

他们可以继续工作。

So an example is Jira would detect that a new command had been created and then it could automatically move your piece of work to in progress because there's code being written against it.

举个例子，Jira 会检测到已创建一个新命令，然后它可以自动将您的工作移至正在进行中，因为有针对它编写的代码。

And there were a whole bunch of these examples that parties integrated into it and I made the decision to put into Jira as a user was editing their workflow and we shipped it and it performed just fine.

各方将一大堆这样的示例集成到其中，当用户编辑他们的工作流程时，我决定将其放入 Jira 中，我们交付了它，它表现得很好。

People discovered it, they used it, and seemed to give a lot of value.

人们发现了它，使用了它，并且似乎赋予了很多价值。

People liked it, which doesn't really sound like a fail.

人们喜欢它，这听起来并不像是失败。

I don't think that...

我不认为...

Megan Cook: Where I dropped the ball was more about what I should have realized about that feature.

梅根·库克：我失败的地方更多的是我应该意识到这个功能。

So automation, it's super useful.

所以自动化，它非常有用。

It can be used by a whole slew of people who aren't just developers.

它可以被很多人使用，而不仅仅是开发人员。

It could be used in every single product.

它可以用于每一种产品。

It's more than just moving things to a new status.

它不仅仅是将事物提升到新的状态。

And so I should have realized that we could have built this amazing service that every product could have moved themselves forward with.

所以我应该意识到，我们可以建立这项令人惊叹的服务，让每个产品都可以推动自己向前发展。

And years later, Atlassian actually acquired a company that did exactly that, this advanced automation.

几年后，Atlassian 实际上收购了一家专门从事这一业务的公司，即先进的自动化公司。

And it's in every product now.

现在它已存在于所有产品中。

And so you can imagine how much it costs to acquire a company.

所以你可以想象收购一家公司要花多少钱。

That was a really extensive mistake on my part.

这对我来说是一个非常严重的错误。

So when I see a new idea, I'm always asking myself, "How do we push this further?

因此，当我看到一个新想法时，我总是问自己：“我们如何进一步推动这个想法？

Is there something there that we can 10X?

有什么东西我们可以 10 倍吗？

Can we apply it more broadly to more types of users, more products?

我们能否更广泛地应用到更多类型的用户、更多的产品上？

Is there some bigger opportunity that we can really take advantage of?"

有没有更大的机会我们可以真正利用？”

Lenny: That's an awesome story.

莱尼：那是一个很棒的故事。

So the lesson there is just think bigger with the products.

因此，我们的教训就是对产品要有更大的思考。

You almost need to wait for it to first be successful for you just to be like, "Oh, but can we do something more with this?" Do you think you should have been thinking about that as you were building it or would that have been too early?

你几乎需要等待它第一次成功，你才会想，“哦，但是我们可以用这个做更多的事情吗？”您认为您在构建它时是否应该考虑这一点，或者这是否为时过早？

Megan Cook: No, I think I should have caught that as we were building it, because even when I think about the experience, so it was a really good proving ground for it for sure.

梅根·库克：不，我想我应该在我们建造它的时候就意识到这一点，因为即使我考虑到这种体验，它也确实是一个很好的试验场。

But even when I think about the experience, just where that experience was designed and product limited its functionality, which is a real shame.

但即使我考虑到这种体验，这种体验的设计和产品也限制了它的功能，这真是一种耻辱。

Lenny: I guess the takeaway there is just if you're committing to some idea, ask yourself what would it look like if this was 10 times bigger?

Lenny：我想，如果你致力于某个想法，问问自己，如果这个想法扩大 10 倍，它会是什么样子？

If this was a bigger deal, can this apply to other things we're doing?

如果这是一个更大的问题，这可以适用于我们正在做的其他事情吗？

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

Where could this go in three years, five years?

三年、五年后，这一切会走向何方？

And should that change the way that you think about it now?

这应该改变你现在的思考方式吗？

Lenny: Great advice.

莱尼：很好的建议。

Megan, is there anything else that you wanted to share or is there anything you wanted to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

梅根，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？或者有什么想留给听众的吗？

Megan Cook: I'll leave you with something.

梅根·库克：我会给你留点东西。

And it's just this practice that I've found really useful for my squad that we've implemented pretty recently, and especially with remote work and all of that.

我发现我们最近实施的这种做法对我的团队非常有用，尤其是在远程工作等方面。

So like I said, we have limited time together, but what we put into place is something we called Fight Club.

就像我说的，我们在一起的时间有限，但我们安排了一个叫做“搏击俱乐部”的活动。

I'll probably get in trouble for talking about Fight Club.

我可能会因为谈论搏击俱乐部而惹上麻烦。

The first rule is you don't talk about fight club.

第一条规则是你不能谈论搏击俱乐部。

Megan Cook: It's 30 minutes every week.

梅根·库克：每周 30 分钟。

And it's just for myself, my engineering and my design leader, and we get together and we know that we're going in there to have a conflict.

这只是为了我自己、我的工程和设计主管，我们聚在一起，我们知道我们会在那里发生冲突。

I think often when there's difficult conversations or those conflicts come up, you can put them off until they become much bigger.

我认为，通常当出现困难的对话或冲突时，你可以推迟它们，直到它们变得更大。

Or if somebody is conflict adverse, they can try to avoid having it at all.

或者，如果某人不喜欢冲突，他们可以尽量避免发生冲突。

But by having a specific sort of time in your week for something like that, then you're sort of in that mindset.

但是，通过在一周中安排特定的时间来做类似的事情，那么你就会处于这种心态中。

You know you're going in there to solve a hard problem.

你知道你要去那里解决一个难题。

You know that there's going to be a disagreement and it makes it much better.

你知道会有分歧，但这会让事情变得更好。

And I think the relationship we all have is so much better because we get on top of these things early.

我认为我们之间的关系要好得多，因为我们很早就掌握了这些事情。

Lenny: This is super cool.

莱尼：这太酷了。

It's like couples therapy or something where you're just like, "What issues do we have?

这就像夫妻治疗或类似的事情，你会问：“我们有什么问题？

Let's work through them right now." I love that.

让我们现在就解决它们。”我喜欢那个。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

And it makes it okay to bring up things that are bothering you and things that you think need to change.

并且可以提出困扰您的事情以及您认为需要改变的事情。

And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：第一个问题，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Megan Cook: Look, I have a habit of sending books to everyone who reports to me every year just on a skill they're working on.

梅根·库克：听着，我有一个习惯，每年向我汇报的每个人都寄一些关于他们正在研究的技能的书籍。

So I've got a huge list that I actually send out, but the one that I send out the most to new PMs especially is just inspired by Marty Cagan.

因此，我实际上已经发出了一份巨大的清单，但我向新产品经理发出最多的清单是受马蒂·卡根 (Marty Cagan) 启发的。

It holds up really well.

它保持得非常好。

It was recommended to me by my first boss, and it's just got a bunch of great tips in there, just great foundational knowledge.

这是我的第一位老板向我推荐的，里面有很多很棒的技巧，还有很棒的基础知识。

Megan Cook: More recently, what I've been sending out for my managers is Scaling People by Claire Hughes Johnson.

梅根·库克：最近，我向我的经理们发送的是克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊 (Claire Hughes Johnson) 撰写的《扩展人员规模》(Scaling People)。

I think that just came out within the last year actually, but it's just got an incredible amount of really useful tactical things, templates, all sorts of things that you can put into practice.

我认为它实际上是在去年才出现的，但它有大量真正有用的战术东西、模板以及各种可以付诸实践的东西。

Lenny: Great choices.

莱尼：很棒的选择。

We have both in the bookshelf behind me.

我们的书都在我身后的书架上。

Both of them have been on the podcast.

他们俩都上过播客。

I wish I could see the whole list of books that you recommend to people.

我希望我能看到您向人们推荐的完整书籍清单。

If you don't have this written out anywhere, you should publish some kind of blog or newsletter post of here's the skill and here's the book you recommend.

如果您没有在任何地方写下此内容，您应该发布某种博客或时事通讯文章，其中介绍了这里的技能和您推荐的书。

Megan Cook: Oh, that's a great idea.

梅根·库克：噢，这是个好主意。

Yeah, I'm going to do that.

是的，我会这么做。

Thanks.

谢谢。

Lenny: Right, you have a homework assignment.

莱尼：好的，你有一个家庭作业。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

What is the favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Megan Cook: I am so late to TV, but Foundation is the one that I've been binging lately, and I think it's just this huge world.

梅根·库克：我看电视太晚了，但《基金会》是我最近一直追捧的一部，我认为这就是这个广阔的世界。

And I'm not usually one that gets super into sci-fi, but the way that it brings forward some of these ideas for what new technologies could mean...

我通常不太热衷于科幻小说，但它提出了一些关于新技术可能意味着什么的想法……

If you haven't seen it, and this is really spoiling it, one of the main characters or three of the main characters are actually clones of this emperor who rules the universe and decided to clone himself at three different stages of his life so that those people could continue rolling.

如果你还没看过，这真的是剧透了，其中一个或三个主角实际上是这位统治宇宙的皇帝的克隆人，他决定在生命的三个不同阶段克隆自己，以便那些人可以继续滚动。

And I think even that idea just invites the idea of what if we stretched out human life?

我认为即使是这个想法也会引发这样的想法：如果我们延长人类的寿命会怎样？

What are the impact?

有哪些影响？

How do things advance when you've got that same mindset and same people continue on?

当你有同样的心态并且同样的人继续前进时，事情会如何进展？

It's super compelling.

真是超级有说服力啊

Lenny: Foundation, the show got ruined for me by reading the books many, many years ago, is one of my favorite sci-fi trilogy of all time.

莱尼：《基地》，这部剧因为我很多很多年前读过的书而被毁了，它是我一直以来最喜欢的科幻三部曲之一。

And then I was so excited for the show and has nothing to do with the books, basically.

然后我对这个节目非常兴奋，基本上与书无关。

It's like the storyline is completely different, the core idea is the same as the only real.

就好像故事情节完全不同，核心思想却是唯一真实的一样。

So I just got tired of it and stopped.

所以我只是厌倦了它并停止了。

But if you haven't read the books, I think you would love it.

但如果你还没有读过这些书，我想你会喜欢的。

It's beautiful.

很美丽。

Lenny: Yeah, the books are better.

莱尼：是的，书更好。

The books are always better, I think is a good rule of thumb.

书总是更好，我认为这是一个很好的经验法则。

Megan Cook: Yeah, that is a good rule.

梅根·库克：是的，这是一个很好的规则。

I'll probably pick that up.

我可能会选择它。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I was like a teenager when I read them, so I don't know.

当我读到它们时，我就像一个十几岁的孩子，所以我不知道。

Maybe they suck, but I think people love them.

也许它们很糟糕，但我认为人们喜欢它们。

Highly recommend the books if you liked the show especially.

如果您特别喜欢该节目，强烈推荐这些书籍。

Next question, do you have a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates?

下一个问题是，您有最喜欢问候选人的面试问题吗？

Megan Cook: I think it's an old one, but a great one on the subject of failure.

梅根·库克：我认为这是一本老书，但关于失败的主题却很棒。

I love to ask people about their biggest failure and I think it's a good way to get to know somebody because you can see how introspective they are, how much they think about what's happened and what they learned from it.

我喜欢问人们他们最大的失败，我认为这是了解某人的好方法，因为你可以看到他们有多么内省，他们对发生的事情有多少思考以及他们从中学到了什么。

It shows whether or not they can be vulnerable with you.

它表明他们在你面前是否会变得脆弱。

You can see what they consider to be a big failure.

你可以看到他们认为这是一个巨大的失败。

Some people will list something that's not really a failure.

有些人会列出一些并不是真正失败的东西。

And also you can see about whether they've got that growth mindset.

您还可以了解他们是否具有成长心态。

So have they learned something from that?

那么他们从中学到了什么吗？

Have they applied it moving forward?

他们是否继续应用它？

Megan Cook: Weird rule that I've found is that a lot of the best hires that I've had has had big failure stories that they've worked through and learned from.

梅根·库克：我发现的一个奇怪的规则是，我所雇用的许多最优秀的员工都有过巨大的失败故事，他们已经经历过并从中吸取了教训。

And so I think that's great to see what they consider there, what the learnings are, but also in the solution you can also see how they tackle something like that.

所以我认为很高兴看到他们在那里考虑了什么，学到了什么，而且在解决方案中你还可以看到他们如何解决类似的问题。

So are they the type of person who wants to go and forge something all by themselves?

那么他们是那种想要自己去创造一些东西的人吗？

Are they the type of person who will pull together a community to figure something out?

他们是那种会团结社区来解决问题的人吗？

So you get that insight into their values and their approach from that question too, which is hugely useful.

因此，您也可以从这个问题中了解他们的价值观和方法，这非常有用。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品？

Megan Cook: Yeah.

梅根·库克：是的。

You might have to stop me from going on and on about this, but I recently got a smoker, a Traeger smoker for smoking meat.

你可能不得不阻止我继续谈论这件事，但我最近有一个吸烟者，一个用于抽肉的 Traeger 吸烟者。

And just the unboxing experience was incredible.

光是开箱体验就令人难以置信。

So you get this huge box, cardboard box, you open it up.

所以你得到这个巨大的盒子，纸板箱，你打开它。

If you reverse the cardboard box, it becomes like a play saloon that your kid can jump into and just mess around in which-

如果你把纸板箱倒过来，它就会变成一个游戏沙龙，你的孩子可以跳进去，在里面玩耍——

Megan Cook: ...

梅根·库克：...

rather than just throwing it out, it becomes something really cool and useful.

它不再是直接扔掉，而是变得非常酷且有用。

The set of instructions has a six-pack of beer at the top, just helps you understand how far through you should be through your six-pack as you're constructing it.

这套说明书的顶部有六罐装啤酒，只是帮助您了解在构建六罐装啤酒时应该喝多远。

You get some tools with it.

你会得到一些工具。

And they're really good actually.

事实上他们真的很好。

They're not the usual kind of throwaway tools that you get in something to put together something like this.

它们不是通常用来组装这样的东西的一次性工具。

In addition to that sort of playful delightfulness in there, as you build it, you discover things along the way.

除了其中那种有趣的乐趣之外，当你建造它时，你还会发现一些东西。

So I opened up the hopper where you put in your wood pellets and there was a baseball cap, a tray of baseball cap in there, which was unexpected and really cool.

所以我打开了放入木颗粒的料斗，里面有一顶棒球帽，里面有一盘棒球帽，这是出乎意料的，真的很酷。

And then the whole experience of actually using it once you've set it up is amazing.

设置完成后，实际使用它的整个体验是令人惊叹的。

So it's all connected to my phone.

所以这一切都连接到我的手机。

I can just head to the beach and have some brisket going and come home and it's beautifully done.

我可以去海滩吃点牛胸肉，然后回家，做得很漂亮。

It just works.

它就是有效的。

It's integrated.

它是集成的。

It's got integrated recipes.

它有集成的食谱。

Yeah, I love that.

是的，我喜欢那个。

I like that one.

我喜欢那个。

Lenny: And salt.

莱尼：还有盐。

That sounds so delightful.

听起来真令人愉快。

Such a great product experience.

如此出色的产品体验。

I'm going to have to get one I think.

我想我必须买一个。

I think we're going to sell some Traeger smokers.

我想我们要卖一些 Traeger 烟机。

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends, either in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作中还是在生活中，您经常回来与朋友分享？

Megan Cook: It's around maximizing joy.

梅根·库克：这是为了最大化快乐。

And what I mean by that is it's about finding what's important and leaning into it or finding what's annoying and turning it into something I enjoy.

我的意思是，找到重要的事情并专注于它，或者找到烦人的事情并将其变成我喜欢的东西。

To give you a super small example is I'm terrible with keys.

给你举一个非常小的例子，我对钥匙很糟糕。

I will leave that thing all over the place.

我会把那个东西留在各处。

You'll find it in my cutlery drawer or whatever, and I'll never find it again.

你会在我的餐具抽屉或其他什么地方找到它，但我再也找不到它了。

And I think an obvious solution to that could be to put a hook on the wall or something where you can just leave them and you go back to that and it's easy to find.

我认为一个明显的解决方案可能是在墙上放一个钩子或其他东西，你可以把它们放在哪里，然后你回到那里就很容易找到。

But what gives me joy is not actually having to have keys at all.

但真正让我高兴的是根本不需要拥有钥匙。

And so now I have a fingerprint reader on my front door and I feel a little bit like James Bond every time I enter my house and I can let people in if somebody needs to leave a package or something that's easy to do.

所以现在我的前门上有一个指纹识别器，每次我进入我的房子时，我都感觉有点像詹姆斯·邦德，如果有人需要留下包裹或一些容易做的事情，我可以让人们进来。

So it was turning something annoying into something more joyful.

所以它正在把烦人的事情变成更快乐的事情。

Megan Cook: And I think the other thing there is just I really value keeping great relationships and increasing those relationships.

梅根·库克：我认为另一件事是我非常重视保持良好的关系并增加这些关系。

And so I always make time for these amazing friends that I have that live in London, and we have this pact where every time either one of us goes to the others' continent, we'll go meet them there.

因此，我总是为那些住在伦敦的出色朋友腾出时间，我们有一项协议，每次我们中的任何一个人去对方的大陆时，我们都会在那里与他们见面。

So every time I go to Europe, which last year I was in Berlin, at one point in Amsterdam, and on the plane, they came over and we just hung out and had a great time.

所以每次我去欧洲，去年我在柏林，有一次在阿姆斯特丹，在飞机上，他们都会过来，我们就一起出去玩，玩得很开心。

And so it's making sure that you make time for those important things.

所以要确保你腾出时间来做那些重要的事情。

Lenny: Along the same lines, final question related to creating more joy.

莱尼：同样，最后一个问题与创造更多快乐有关。

I noticed a beautiful surfboard behind you.

我注意到你身后有一块漂亮的冲浪板。

For somebody that's trying to surf and maybe not being successful, what's one tip you could share with listeners to improve their success with surfing?

对于那些尝试冲浪但可能没有成功的人来说，您可以与听众分享的一项技巧是什么，以提高他们冲浪的成功率？

Megan Cook: Isn't surfing the most humbling sport that you've ever tried?

梅根·库克：冲浪难道不是你尝试过的最令人羞愧的运动吗？

Lenny: Yeah, I've tried a few times and yeah, I would say so.

莱尼：是的，我已经尝试过几次了，是的，我会这么说。

Megan Cook: I think surfing's really interesting.

梅根·库克：我认为冲浪真的很有趣。

I've never done a sport like it in that it's something that you have to really feel.

我从来没有做过这样的运动，因为它是你必须真正感受到的东西。

So I find every time you learn and you think about surfing, you sort of feel it before you know how to do it.

所以我发现每次你学习并想到冲浪时，你都会先感受到它，然后才知道如何去做。

So even just being able to catch a wave, a green pace wave, you're paddling, you're paddling, you don't quite know where to be, you don't quite know how much to paddle for that wave, and you just have to sort of be successful a couple times before you get the feel for it.

因此，即使只是能够抓住一个波浪，一个绿色的波浪，你在划桨，你在划桨，你不太知道要去哪里，你不太知道要划多少浪，你只需要成功几次就能找到感觉。

And it's the same with trying to find the right wave.

这与试图找到合适的波浪是一样的。

When I looked at the ocean the first time to try and pick the wave and pick where to be, I couldn't even see the shape of it to find that right place.

当我第一次看着海洋，试图挑选波浪并选择去哪里时，我什至看不到它的形状来找到正确的地方。

It took me just seeing a hundred waves to be able to do that.

我只看了一百波就能够做到这一点。

Megan Cook: So my best tip for surfing is get out there, keep doing it, do it over and over and over again.

梅根·库克：所以我最好的冲浪秘诀就是走出去，继续做，一遍又一遍地做。

You will get better.

你会变得更好。

You'll start to see all of these things that you've never noticed before.

您将开始看到所有这些您以前从未注意到的事情。

And get some friends.

并结交一些朋友。

Get some friends out there, get surfing accountability buddy to make sure that you're getting out there often.

结交一些朋友，找个负责冲浪的伙伴，以确保你经常出去。

Lenny: He's the best buddy.

莱尼：他是最好的朋友。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Megan, we've talked about play and safety and buy-in and fighting the good fight and adding new product lines, also surfing.

梅根，我们讨论了游戏、安全、支持、打好仗、增加新产品线，还有冲浪。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on some stuff?

如果人们想要联系您并跟进一些事情，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Megan Cook: The best place to find me is on LinkedIn.

梅根·库克：找到我的最佳地点是 LinkedIn。

I'm Megan Cook on LinkedIn.

我是 LinkedIn 上的梅根·库克。

You can also find me if you're a customer in the Atlassian community, if you want to have a chat.

如果您是 Atlassian 社区的客户，如果您想聊天，也可以找到我。

And I'm also on social media, so on X, you can find me there as well.

我也在社交媒体上，所以在 X 上，你也可以在那里找到我。

And be useful to me.

并且对我有用。

Look, any feedback, absolutely any feedback on Jira software, always hungry for that.

看，任何反馈，绝对是有关 Jira 软件的任何反馈，总是渴望得到。

Also, really keen, if you want to just chat about how people's ways of working are evolving and shifting and changing, and how do you think that's going to turn out and how you see your goals for your team changing.

另外，如果您想谈谈人们的工作方式如何演变、转变和变化，以及您认为结果会如何，以及您如何看待团队目标的变化，我真的很热衷。

I would love to talk about that.

我很想谈谈这个。

Please get in touch.

请联系我们。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Megan, thank you so much for being here.

梅根，非常感谢你来到这里。

Megan Cook: Thank you, Lenny.

梅根·库克：谢谢你，莱尼。

It's been fun.

这很有趣。

Same.

相同的。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。