Unconventional product lessons from Binance, N26, Google, more | Mayur Kamat (CPO at N26)

Mayur Kamat: My, probably, most spectacular failure was, I was the first PM on Hangouts.

Mayur Kamat：我最引人注目的失败可能是，我是环聊的第一位产品经理。

We had thousands of people working for me.

我们有成千上万的人为我工作。

We had entire power of Google.

我们拥有谷歌的全部力量。

We had Larry literally sitting with us saying we can do anything we want Chrome to do and we still didn't manage to build a great messaging product.

Larry 确实坐在我们旁边说我们可以做任何我们希望 Chrome 做的事情，但我们仍然没能构建出一个出色的消息传递产品。

The main learnings from that is, don't take on projects that are going to be six months, a year, because you just generally don't have control over the macro.

从中学到的主要经验是，不要承担为期六个月或一年的项目，因为你通常无法控制宏观。

The challenge with being a product manager is, everybody thinks they can do the job.

成为产品经理的挑战是，每个人都认为自己可以胜任这份工作。

Anybody who uses the product thinks they have ideas, so at some point in time, you're like, "What is my discipline?

任何使用该产品的人都认为他们有想法，所以在某个时候，你会想，“我的纪律是什么？

What is my science?" The moment you build experimentation, you've now made it scientific.

我的科学是什么？”当你进行实验的那一刻，你就已经让它变得科学了。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of new people in their career are like, "Oh, I just want to think about strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多职业生涯的新人都会说，“哦，我只是想考虑一下策略。

I'm going to think about the big picture."

我会考虑大局。”

Mayur Kamat: Strategy is a little bit overrated for product.

Mayur Kamat：对于产品而言，策略的作用有点被高估了。

For most product managers, your strategy should be, "How fast can I go from hypothesis to data?"

对于大多数产品经理来说，你的策略应该是“我能多快从假设到数据？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Mayur Kamat.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Mayur Kamat。

Mayur is Chief Product Officer at N26, one of the most successful fintech startups in the world and which, in my research, came in amongst the top five companies in the world who are hiring and producing the best product managers.

Mayur 是 N26 的首席产品官，N26 是世界上最成功的金融科技初创公司之一，根据我的研究，该公司跻身世界上招聘和培养最佳产品经理的前五名公司之列。

Prior to N26, Mayur was Global Head of Product at Binance, VP of product at Agoda, which is over a $100 billion dollar company based in Thailand, and a PM at Google and Microsoft.

在加入 N26 之前，Mayur 曾担任币安的全球产品主管、Agoda（一家总部位于泰国、价值超过 1000 亿美元的公司）的产品副总裁，以及谷歌和微软的产品经理。

In our wide-ranging conversation, Mayur shares what he's learned about hiring and developing great product managers, what he learned from his time working at Binance, which, as you'll soon hear, was one of the wildest and most unique ways of working, what he learned from the failure of Google's early attempts at Hangouts, where he was the first PM.

在我们内容广泛的对话中，Mayur 分享了他在招聘和培养优秀产品经理方面的经验教训、他从币安工作期间学到的经验（你很快就会听到，这是最疯狂、最独特的工作方式之一）、他从 Google 早期尝试 Hangouts 的失败中学到的经验（他是该公司的第一位产品经理）。

Also, the pros and cons of working in Asia versus Europe versus the US, and why you should be starting your career on the West Coast of the US.

此外，还介绍了在亚洲、欧洲和美国工作的优缺点，以及为什么您应该在美国西海岸开始您的职业生涯。

Also, why comp early in your career does not matter and so much more.

此外，为什么在职业生涯早期进行补偿并不重要，甚至更重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is so full of golden nuggets and advice for product people throughout every stage of their career.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集充满了金块和对产品人员职业生涯各个阶段的建议。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products, including Superhuman, Notion, Linear Perplexity, Granola and more.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人惊叹的产品，包括 Super human、Notion、Linear Perplexity、Granola 等等。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Mayur Kamat.

接下来，我为您带来了 Mayur Kamat。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么在某些时候，您的客户将开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand, so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

Lenny Rachitsky：WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth Zero and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth Zero 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workOS.com to learn more.

请访问 workOS.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workOS.

这就是工作操作系统。

com.

com.

Lenny Rachitsky: Many of you are building AI products, which is why I am very excited to chat with Brandon Foo, Founder and CEO of Paragon.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们中的许多人都在构建人工智能产品，这就是为什么我很高兴与 Paragon 的创始人兼首席执行官 Brandon Foo 聊天。

Hey, Brandon.

嘿，布兰登。

Brandon Foo: Hey, Lenny.

布兰登·符：嘿，莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Integrations have become a big deal for AI products.

Lenny Rachitsky：集成对于人工智能产品来说已经成为一件大事。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Brandon Foo: Integrations are mission-critical for AI for two reasons.

Brandon Foo：集成对于人工智能来说至关重要，原因有两个。

First, AI products need contacts from their customer's business data such as Google Drive files, Slack messages or CRM records.

首先，人工智能产品需要来自客户业务数据的联系人，例如 Google Drive 文件、Slack 消息或 CRM 记录。

Second, for AI products to automate work on behalf of users, AI agents need to be able to take action across these different third-party tools.

其次，为了使人工智能产品能够代表用户自动化工作，人工智能代理需要能够跨这些不同的第三方工具采取行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: Where does Paragon fit into all this?

Lenny Rachitsky：Paragon 在这一切中处于什么位置？

Brandon Foo: These integrations are a pain to build.

Brandon Foo：构建这些集成非常痛苦。

That's why Paragon provides an embedded platform that enables engineers to ship these product integrations in just days instead of months across every use case from rag data ingestion to agentic actions.

这就是为什么 Paragon 提供了一个嵌入式平台，使工程师能够在短短几天而不是几个月内交付这些产品集成，涵盖从碎片数据摄取到代理操作的每个用例。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know from firsthand experience that maintenance is even harder than just building it for the first time.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从第一手经验中知道，维护比第一次建造它还要困难。

Brandon Foo: Exactly.

布兰登·符：没错。

We believe product teams should focus engineering efforts on competitive advantages, not integrations.

我们认为产品团队应该将工程工作的重点放在竞争优势上，而不是集成上。

That's why companies like You.com, AI21 and hundreds of others use Paragon to accelerate their integration strategy.

这就是 You.com、AI21 等数百家公司使用 Paragon 来加速其集成战略的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you want to avoid wasting months of engineering on integrations that your customers need, check out Paragon at useparagon.com/Lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想避免在客户所需的集成上浪费数月的工程时间，请访问 useparagon.com/Lenny 查看 Paragon。

Lenny Rachitsky: Mayur, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Mayur，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Mayur Kamat: Thank you.

马尤尔·卡马特：谢谢。

This is super exciting.

这太令人兴奋了。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to start with your time at Binance.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想从您在币安的经历开始。

You've worked at Google, you worked at Microsoft, you worked at a company called Agoda.

你曾在谷歌工作过，你曾在微软工作过，你曾在一家名为 agoda 的公司工作过。

Now, you're at N26.

现在，你在 N26。

I imagine Binance was the most unique place that you've worked at, and I've also never heard much about what it's like to work at a company like Binance.

我想币安是您工作过的最独特的地方，而且我也从未听说过在币安这样的公司工作是什么感觉。

I was just looking them up on Wikipedia.

我只是在维基百科上查找它们。

I saw they started in China, they moved to Japan, they moved to Malta.

我看到他们从中国开始，他们搬到了日本，他们搬到了马耳他。

Now, they have no official headquarters.

现在，他们没有正式的总部。

What was it just like working at Binance?

在币安工作感觉如何？

How was it most unique from other places you've worked?

与您工作过的其他地方相比，它最独特的地方是什么？

Mayur Kamat: Yeah.

马尤尔·卡马特：是的。

Maybe just a background for Binance, because I think a lot of people have heard it, some in positive connotations, some not so much.

也许只是币安的一个背景，因为我想很多人都听过它，有些是积极的含义，有些则没有那么多。

The scale of Binance is pretty mind-boggling.

币安的规模令人难以置信。

Just to give the history, they started in 2017 as a crypto exchange, when there were other crypto exchange on the market for years, like Coinbase.

回顾一下历史，他们于 2017 年开始作为加密货币交易所，当时市场上已经存在其他加密货币交易所，例如 Coinbase。

Within six months, they became number one.

六个月内，他们成为第一。

That's unprecedented.

这是前所未有的。

That's like launching a search engine today, and then, six months later, beating Google.

这就像今天推出了一个搜索引擎，然后六个月后击败了谷歌。

Then they went within five years to at a peak valuation of somewhere like $400 billion or so with 2000 employees.

然后，他们在五年内达到了 4000 亿美元左右的峰值估值，拥有 2000 名员工。

That's zero to $400 billion in five years.

五年内这个数字为零到 4000 亿美元。

It's at a scale that's never been done before.

这是前所未有的规模。

Google couldn't do it, Facebook, none of the names that you hear.

谷歌做不到，Facebook 做不到，你听到的那些名字都做不到。

It's remarkable.

这很了不起。

When I was there as the head of product, my top line KPI was the trading volume, and my monthly KPI was in trillions of dollars.

当我担任产品主管时，我的首要 KPI 是交易量，我每月的 KPI 单位是万亿美元。

Mayur Kamat: Just the scale was mind-boggling.

Mayur Kamat：光是规模就令人难以置信。

We had teams of 10, 20 people running multi-billion dollar profit businesses.

我们有 10 到 20 人的团队，经营着利润数十亿美元的业务。

That brings in with it, first, how did they do that to that scale, and two, what kind of culture requires to keep that running?

这就带来了第一个问题，他们是如何做到如此规模的，第二个问题，需要什么样的文化来保持这种运行？

Both are very fascinating.

两者都非常迷人。

I think we could spend a lot of time talking about it, but the truly interesting thing, the first one is, you can't do this by having a traditional log structure.

我认为我们可以花很多时间来讨论它，但真正有趣的事情是，第一个是，你不能通过传统的日志结构来做到这一点。

CZ, the founder and CEO at one point had 55 direct reports, and his direct reports had about the similar ones.

创始人兼首席执行官 CZ 曾有 55 名直接下属，而他的直接下属也有大约类似的人。

For a large portion of the history of the company, there was just one level between the individual employees and the CEO.

在公司历史的很大一部分时间里，员工个人和首席执行官之间只有一层。

That leads to an extreme level of decision-making and execution.

这导致了极高水平的决策和执行。

You cannot have one-on-ones when you have 55 direct reports, so there's a culture of one-to-many and doing that as often as possible.

当你有 55 名直接下属时，你就无法进行一对一的沟通，因此存在一种一对多的文化，并且尽可能经常这样做。

Mayur Kamat: The leadership team, for example, met every day, and because the leadership team was spread across the world, we met at 11:00 PM when I was in Singapore every day.

Mayur Kamat：例如，领导团队每天都会开会，因为领导团队分布在世界各地，所以我每天在新加坡的时候，我们都是在晚上 11:00 开会。

That includes the weekends, holidays.

这包括周末、节假日。

The leadership team was there, 11:00 PM every single day, which meant that none of the decisions were blocked for more than 24 hours.

领导团队每天晚上 11:00 都在那里，这意味着没有任何决策被阻止超过 24 小时。

Most of them, we made it on chat even within those 24 hours, but if there was something big, it was escalated, decided.

大多数情况下，我们甚至在 24 小时之内就通过聊天解决了这个问题，但如果有什么大的事情，就会升级，决定。

We executed largely based on this concept that I now take with me.

我们的执行很大程度上是基于我现在所持的这个理念。

I call it running products via daily meeting.

我称之为通过每日会议运行产品。

We would pick a owner for something really urgent at the nightly leadership call.

我们会在每晚的领导层电话会议上为真正紧急的事情挑选一位所有者。

Then that owner would be expected to have all hands on deck for however long that problem is every single day and then report the updates on the daily call.

然后，无论问题每天持续多久，该所有者都应该让所有人都齐心协力，然后在每日电话会议上报告最新情况。

Some of these were really massive topics, like how do we get 15 financial licenses in 15 countries in the next three months?

其中一些话题确实很大，比如我们如何在未来三个月内获得 15 个国家的 15 个金融牌照？

It wouldn't be at a scale that was-

它不会达到这样的规模——

Mayur Kamat: Yes, and people did it.

Mayur Kamat：是的，人们做到了。

It's extremely interesting to see that when you have really smart people, you give them really hard problems, you have no constraints on what can you need to solve them, whether it's money, people, except time.

非常有趣的是，当你拥有真正聪明的人时，你给他们提出了非常困难的问题，你对解决这些问题所需的东西没有任何限制，无论是金钱、人员，除了时间。

Time is always at a premium.

时间总是很宝贵。

People can move mountains in a small amount of time.

人们可以在很短的时间内移山。

That extreme ownership culture, I think, probably was the most fascinating part of working at Binance that I've now tried to take.

我认为，这种极端的所有权文化可能是我现在尝试在币安工作的最迷人的部分。

There's some good parts of it in terms of attention to detail, being able to pick certain areas and own it, irrespective of what your title is and how many people report to you.

它的一些优点是注重细节，能够选择某些领域并拥有它，无论你的头衔是什么以及有多少人向你汇报。

There are certain downsides in terms of the amount of randomization that it can cost teams, especially if it's not super well-thought through.

就随机化的数量而言，它可能会给团队带来一定的负面影响，特别是如果它没有经过深思熟虑的话。

I'm trying to see what are the great parts of that that I can bring to different roles, but that concept of daily meeting, if there's something super urgent, how can you own it directly and run it yourself, where you are in the details so your team knows that they need to be in the details, and then be able to execute that.

我试图看看我可以为不同的角色带来哪些重要的部分，但是日常会议的概念，如果有什么超级紧急的事情，你如何直接拥有它并自己运行它，你在细节中的位置，以便你的团队知道他们需要在细节中，然后能够执行它。

That's probably the most fascinating.

这可能是最吸引人的。

There's several war stories.

有几个战争故事。

I was there for two years and the amount of interesting stories that happened during that time is a lot, but then, maybe I can follow up later if you have specific questions there.

我在那里呆了两年，在那段时间发生了很多有趣的故事，但是，如果你有具体的问题，也许我可以稍后跟进。

Lenny Rachitsky: I would love to hear a war story.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很想听一个战争故事。

This is definitely as interesting as I was expecting it to be.

这绝对和我期待的一样有趣。

Just what I'm hearing so far is just things that worked well for them to operate at this insane pace and scale is the entire leadership team meeting every single day, 11:00 PM your time.

到目前为止，我所听到的是，整个领导团队每天晚上 11:00 召开会议，对他们以如此疯狂的速度和规模运作非常有效。

Hopefully, at better times for other folks around the world.

希望世界各地的其他人在更好的时期。

Mayur Kamat: There's some people in Sydney, Australia, so it was 1:00 AM for them.

Mayur Kamat：有些人在澳大利亚悉尼，所以对他们来说现在是凌晨 1:00。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good grief.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪。

This idea of a flat structure, yeah, it's interesting, because I imagine that's not necessarily great for other reasons and then this idea of being in the details.

是的，这种扁平结构的想法很有趣，因为我想由于其他原因这不一定很好，然后是细节的想法。

Let me ask about that, actually.

让我问一下，事实上。

What does that actually look like?

那实际上是什么样子的？

I think a lot of people, a lot of leaders are like, "Oh, yeah.

我认为很多人、很多领导者都会说：“哦，是的。

I'm in the details, we should be in the details." What does that actually look like in real life at Binance?

我注重细节，我们也应该注重细节。”在币安的现实生活中，这实际上是什么样子的？

Mayur Kamat: Let me give an example.

Mayur Kamat：让我举个例子。

One of the areas, when I joined, one of the biggest product problem we had was, crypto before was fairly unregulated, so you could just sign up with an email address or even just a wallet and start trading.

当我加入时，我们遇到的最大的产品问题之一是，加密货币之前相当不受监管，因此您只需使用电子邮件地址甚至钱包注册即可开始交易。

There was almost zero friction.

摩擦力几乎为零。

Then it suddenly became regulated, where you would almost have a full KYC flow like a bank.

然后它突然受到监管，你几乎可以像银行一样拥有完整的 KYC 流程。

That just meant that the conversion rate dropped from, let's say, 100% to 2%.

这只是意味着转化率从 100% 下降到 2%。

Now we had to solve this problem.

现在我们必须解决这个问题。

This was the daily meeting level problem.

这是日常会议级别的问题。

It's okay if you're operating in one country.

如果您在一个国家/地区开展业务，那就没问题。

You can do it easily.

你可以轻松做到。

If you're operating in 200 countries where there's not even a standard for what a document acceptance criteria might look like, now you have a significantly larger problem.

如果您在 200 个国家/地区开展业务，而这些国家甚至没有文件接受标准的标准，那么您现在面临的问题要严重得多。

You cannot say, "Let's work with the KYC vendor and do the onboarding."

您不能说：“让我们与 KYC 供应商合作并进行入职培训。”

Mayur Kamat: We had to, literally have this, the top 50 countries, the top 10 document types, this spreadsheet of basically 500 cells, the conversion rate at each level.

Mayur Kamat：实际上，我们必须拥有前 50 个国家/地区、前 10 个文档类型、这个包含 500 个单元格的电子表格以及每个级别的转化率。

Then we are looking at, okay, a passport in Kazakhstan has very low level of conversion.

然后我们看看，好吧，哈萨克斯坦的护照转换率非常低。

What can we do about that?

对此我们能做些什么呢？

Do we need a new vendor?

我们需要新的供应商吗？

Do we need better imaging technology?

我们需要更好的成像技术吗？

Do we need a new SDK from a vendor?

我们需要供应商提供新的 SDK 吗？

Then we go cell by cell based on, let's say if I was running a typical product team, I would say, okay, let's just look at maybe the top 90 percentile of our users, but this was Binance and then CZ is like, "No user left behind.

然后我们逐个进行分析，假设我正在运营一个典型的产品团队，我会说，好吧，让我们看看我们用户中前 90% 的人，但这是币安，然后 CZ 会说，“没有用户掉队。

Even that one user in Congo is important because this is financial inclusion for them." Then all of those 500 sales matter, no matter how low their impact to the conversion rate is.

即使是刚果的一位用户也很重要，因为这对他们来说是普惠金融。”那么所有这 500 次销售都很重要，无论它们对转化率的影响有多低。

Mayur Kamat: That's a little bit of Binance flavor there.

Mayur Kamat：这有点币安的味道。

It's extreme customer focus and it doesn't really matter.

这是极端以客户为中心的，但这并不重要。

Customers are not a number.

客户不是一个数字。

It's a person at the end of the screen and we care about them, so you would need to know, you would get questions like, why is the driver's license acceptance rate in Kenya falling suddenly?

这是屏幕尽头的一个人，我们关心他们，所以你需要知道，你会得到这样的问题，为什么肯尼亚的驾照接受率突然下降？

When you have, and that's just one piece of the problem in a large product with 80 different products.

如果有的话，这只是包含 80 种不同产品的大型产品中的一小部分问题。

You, of course, cannot do it for every single product, but the concept of, what is the most leveraged decision you could be working on right now?

当然，你不可能对每一个产品都这样做，但是你现在可以做出的最有影响力的决策是什么？

If it is for your growth, it's the onboarding, then you'd better know exact every single screen of the flow, why is there a drop-off and what are your teams doing for it?

如果是为了您的成长，那就是入职，那么您最好确切地了解流程的每个屏幕，为什么会出现下降以及您的团队为此做了什么？

That level of detail, and you just do it on different products at different parts of your journey.

这种程度的细节，你只需在旅程的不同部分使用不同的产品来实现即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there's people listening where they're like, there's the team responsible for the onboarding flow and the KYC flow of their product and it's so hard.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想有人会倾听他们的想法，有团队负责他们产品的入职流程和 KYC 流程，这非常困难。

They're like, oh, there's all these problems with our flow.

他们就像，哦，我们的流程存在所有这些问题。

Imagine that for 100 different versions of the flow across 100 different countries.

想象一下，对于 100 个不同国家/地区的 100 个不同版本的流程。

Good God.

天哪。

Mayur Kamat: And documents.

Mayur Kamat：还有文件。

It gets very tricky.

这变得非常棘手。

It gets very tricky, but we also had resources.

这变得非常棘手，但我们也有资源。

At one point in time we said, we had a team of 20 people working on KYC and we said, "For the next three months, we want 500."

我们曾说过，我们有一个 20 人的团队负责 KYC，我们说：“在接下来的三个月里，我们需要 500 人。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Which has its own downsides, too.

Lenny Rachitsky：这也有其缺点。

Mayur Kamat: Has its downside, but if you're running in this extreme mode and you're less, not as worried about just the team's stress and personal development aspects of it, you're just purely looking at the execution of the product, there's a surprising amount of power that comes with it.

Mayur Kamat：有它的缺点，但如果你在这种极端模式下运行，你就不会那么担心团队的压力和个人发展方面，你只是纯粹关注产品的执行，它会带来令人惊讶的力量。

This was probably the second time in my career where I had that, wow, you can do this because in other companies it would take years to do it.

这可能是我职业生涯中第二次这样想，哇，你可以做到这一点，因为在其他公司，这需要花费数年时间才能做到。

The first one was, this is going back at Google.

第一个是，这要追溯到谷歌。

I remember I joined Google.

我记得我加入了谷歌。

It was my first day at onboarding and I was the product manager for Gmail for mobile, for sync.

这是我入职的第一天，我是移动 Gmail 同步产品经理。

I was in my onboarding meeting when they pulled me out and said, "Hey, we have an issue.

当我参加入职会议时，他们把我拉了出来，并说：“嘿，我们遇到了一个问题。

The service is down and Wall Street Journal is writing an article that Google, Microsoft, Apple not working together causing the service to go down, so we need you in this war room right now."

服务瘫痪了，《华尔街日报》正在写一篇文章，称谷歌、微软、苹果没有合作，导致服务瘫痪，所以我们现在需要你在这个作战室。”

Mayur Kamat: It was a bug in iOS 4.

Mayur Kamat：这是 iOS 4 中的一个错误。

This is a long time ago, which caused every single user to pull their entire Gmail inbox, re-sync the whole inbox.

这是很久以前的事了，导致每个用户都拉出整个 Gmail 收件箱，重新同步整个收件箱。

A bug on the Apple side is going to take two, three weeks to fix, and it was causing 1000x load to our servers.

Apple 方面的一个错误需要两到三周的时间才能修复，并且它给我们的服务器造成了 1000 倍的负载。

I remember Connie Wurz, who was the Head of Infrastructure at Google, and he's like, "Sure." He flipped a button and there were 1000x servers that showed up for the next two weeks.

我记得 Connie Wurz，谷歌基础设施主管，他说，“当然。”他按下按钮，接下来的两周就会出现 1000 台服务器。

I was like, "Wow, that is scale," right?

我当时想，“哇，这就是规模，”对吧？

This was my second time feeling that wow moment where like, oh, we just put 500 people in and solve the problem.

这是我第二次感受到那种令人惊叹的时刻，哦，我们刚刚投入了 500 人来解决问题。

It's less about having the 500 people and being able to maneuver them that quickly.

重要的是拥有 500 名员工并能够如此迅速地调动他们。

I don't think I've been able to do that at any other company.

我认为我在其他任何公司都无法做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: To close the loop on some of these radical ways of working, this idea of 50 reports per person and this idea of caring about a person in Congo not being able to sign up, do you think that's a good idea?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这些激进的工作方式中的一些循环，每人 50 份报告的想法以及关心无法注册的刚果人的想法，你认为这是一个好主意吗？

Do you take those in the way you work now or is it just, in this particular situation it's important?

您是否以现在的工作方式看待这些问题，或者只是在这种特殊情况下它很重要？

Other places, maybe not.

其他地方，也许没有。

Mayur Kamat: There are several preconditions.

Mayur Kamat：有几个前提条件。

One is you're growing really fast.

一是你成长得非常快。

The growth for the employees comes just from seeing problems at scale that are growing every day that it needs less of a manager's attention to figure out what you need to grow.

员工的成长仅仅来自于看到每天都在增长的大规模问题，不需要经理的关注就能弄清楚你需要成长什么。

The best way to grow in general is that you work at a very fast-growing company.

一般来说，成长的最佳方式是在一家发展非常快的公司工作。

If that's true, two, your people are extremely well compensated, so they care about the KPIs more than they care about what's the next stage in my career and how do I get promoted?

如果这是真的，那么第二，你的员工的薪酬非常丰厚，所以他们更关心 KPI，而不是关心我职业生涯的下一阶段是什么以及我如何晋升？

Our bonus structure went from 0% to 500%, so a lot of people didn't really care getting a 10%, 20% pay.

我们的奖金结构从 0% 到 500%，所以很多人并不真正关心获得 10%、20% 的工资。

They just want to do incredible work because they know they would be taken care of.

他们只是想做令人难以置信的工作，因为他们知道他们会得到照顾。

Three, it's a mission driven company, still believe at the end of the day that you're doing this just beyond the KPI.

第三，这是一家使命驱动的公司，最终仍然相信你所做的事情超出了关键绩效指标 (KPI)。

Mayur Kamat: At Binance, there was a very strong belief that 80% of the world doesn't have access to financial tools.

Mayur Kamat：在币安，人们坚信世界上 80% 的人无法使用金融工具。

They don't even have an access to currency that they can trust.

他们甚至无法获得他们可以信任的货币。

When we look at, live in Europe or in US and we think about crypto, it's largely about speculation or bitcoin.

当我们生活在欧洲或美国时，我们想到加密货币时，主要是关于投机或比特币。

For most of the world, they just need access to a US dollar, stable coin and just knowing that my currency is not getting deinflated because of things beyond my control.

对于世界上大多数人来说，他们只需要获得美元、稳定币，并且知道我的货币不会因为我无法控制的事情而通缩。

Everyone having come from these, a lot of our employees were across all these countries, they had a very strong mission belief that what we are doing will truly empower billions of people.

每个人都来自这些国家，我们的许多员工来自所有这些国家，他们有一个非常强烈的使命信念，即我们正在做的事情将真正赋予数十亿人权力。

There's a power in that.

这里面有一种力量。

A lot of people go through, "Hey, I'm going to move mountains because it's not just about the money, it's just not about my career.

很多人都会经历，“嘿，我要移山，因为这不仅仅是为了钱，也不是为了我的事业。

It's about doing something that will change the world."

这是关于做一些改变世界的事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's follow this thread on accelerating your career, and talk about where you're at today, N26.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们按照这个关于加速你的职业生涯的主题，谈谈你今天的处境，N26。

As you know, I've been doing a bunch of research on which companies hire and produce the best product managers.

如您所知，我一直在研究哪些公司雇用和培养最好的产品经理。

I've done a couple passes at this, and N26 has come up in the top five of both ways of approaching this, essentially which companies alumnis go on to do the best in their career.

我已经在这方面做了几次尝试，N26 在这两种方法中都名列前五，基本上是哪些公司的校友在他们的职业生涯中继续做到最好。

N26 is way up there.

N26 就在那里。

I want to come at this from a couple directions.

我想从几个方面来谈这个问题。

One is what N26 as a company does to hire and incubate the best people, but also just you personally, what your advice is to people and how you help them become great PMs.

一是 N26 作为一家公司如何雇佣和培养最优秀的人才，但也包括你个人，你对人们的建议是什么，以及你如何帮助他们成为优秀的产品经理。

Let's actually start in that second bucket.

让我们实际上从第二个桶开始。

What is the most common and most impactful career advice that you share with product managers that you manage, that you find most helps them move ahead in their career and get unstuck in their career?

您与您管理的产品经理分享的最常见、最有影响力的职业建议是什么，您发现这些建议最能帮助他们在职业生涯中取得进步并摆脱职业生涯的困境？

Mayur Kamat: I think the number one thing I shared before, the best thing you can do is find companies that are growing fast because it compounds your learning at a much faster interval.

Mayur Kamat：我认为我之前分享的第一件事是，你能做的最好的事情就是找到快速增长的公司，因为它会以更快的速度强化你的学习。

Just the basic compound interest formula, even if your interest rate is low, if you're compounding daily versus compounding yearly, after two years, you will be at a whole different stage at the end point.

只是基本的复利公式，即使你的利率很低，如果你每天复利而不是每年复利，两年后，你将处于一个完全不同的阶段。

Companies that are growing fast just lets you get that learning much, much quicker.

快速发展的公司只会让你更快地学习。

I remember joining Microsoft first in my career.

我记得在我的职业生涯中第一次加入微软。

Some of the products I worked on during my internship had not shipped till I left Microsoft three, four years later.

我实习期间开发的一些产品直到三、四年后我离开微软才上市。

That's a very, very low rate of compounding.

这是一个非常非常低的复利率。

Microsoft's a whole different company now 20 years later, thankfully.

值得庆幸的是，20 年后，微软已经是一家完全不同的公司。

Then you contrast that something like Binance where every day or every hour, every minute you're shipping something and then learning from it.

然后你对比像币安这样的东西，每天或每小时、每分钟你都在发布一些东西，然后从中学习。

Mayur Kamat: The faster you can compound your learning, the faster you will grow.

Mayur Kamat：你的学习速度越快，你的成长就越快。

The second piece generally is, you need to optimize for what you're great at.

第二点通常是，你需要针对你擅长的事情进行优化。

Now having two kids, I'm fairly in the fact that your strengths get defined very, very early, right?

现在有了两个孩子，我相当确信你的优势非常非常早就被确定了，对吗？

I'm looking at my nine-year-old and twelve-year-old, and they have a whole different set of strengths.

我看着我九岁和十二岁的孩子，他们有一套完全不同的优势。

If you're 25 years old early in your career, it's very hard at that point to say, "Oh, here are all my weaknesses and I need to improve on those." A lot of the career feedback typically tends to be around, "Hey, here are the things you need to be better at.

如果你 25 岁，正处于职业生涯的早期，那么在那时你很难说：“哦，这是我所有的弱点，我需要改进这些弱点。”很多职业反馈通常都是这样的：“嘿，这些是你需要做得更好的事情。

Why don't you do more of that stuff, right?" Formally in the camp that you need to know what you're great at, what are your superpowers, and you need to find jobs where success is determined by how much of that superpowers you get to use.

你为什么不多做一些这样的事情，对吧？”正式地，在营地中，你需要知道自己擅长什么，你的超能力是什么，并且你需要找到成功取决于你能使用多少超能力的工作。

Mayur Kamat: Early in your career, you can't get away with the fact that there's some stuff you're not going to be great at and you just have to manage around it.

Mayur Kamat：在你职业生涯的早期，你无法逃避这样一个事实：有些事情你不会很擅长，你只能围绕它进行管理。

If you get higher up in your career, then it gets easier because you can build a team that complements your strengths, but again, if you're early in your career, find places that, if you're a great creative person, if you can look at a product and think of 100 things you can do better, you are always about what's the next best thing and how quickly can I implement it, you need to be working in teams that have a high experimentation culture.

如果你在职业生涯中地位更高，那么事情就会变得更容易，因为你可以建立一个能够补充你的优势的团队，但同样，如果你在职业生涯的早期，找到一个地方，如果你是一个伟大的创意人员，如果你可以看到一个产品并想到 100 件你可以做得更好的事情，你总是关心下一个最好的事情是什么以及我可以多快地实施它，你需要在具有高度实验文化的团队中工作。

You need to be working in growth teams in large companies.

您需要在大公司的增长团队中工作。

If you work in a FinTech company on a compliance side project or launching a new business vertical, you're going to struggle, right?

如果您在一家金融科技公司从事合规方面的项目或推出新的垂直业务，您将会陷入困境，对吗？

Mayur Kamat: On the same time, if you have extreme management structured thinking, you have great stakeholder management, you have high EQ, you should work in teams where there is a large amount of complex people management and process management.

Mayur Kamat：同时，如果你有极端的管理结构化思维，你有很好的利益相关者管理，你有很高的情商，你应该在有大量复杂的人员管理和流程管理的团队中工作。

You would struggle in a growth team where the expectation is you're doing things really quickly.

在一个增长团队中，你的期望是你做事速度非常快，你会很挣扎。

I would look at first very introspectively, what are my true strengths?

我首先会非常内省地审视自己，我真正的优势是什么？

What do I, and then look at jobs where that has a much higher profile of winning.

我该怎么办，然后看看那些获胜几率更高的工作。

Thirdly, largely I would say do not optimize for compensation, especially early in your career.

第三，我想说的是，不要优化薪酬，尤其是在职业生涯的早期。

If you're truly on a track to become an executive someday or found your own company and make it successful, you will find that the compensation is so much backloaded that you would make 90% of your compensation in the last five years of your career, so optimizing for 10%, 20% early in your career.

如果你真的有朝一日成为一名高管，或者创建自己的公司并取得成功，你会发现薪酬有如此多的积压，以至于你将在职业生涯的最后五年中获得薪酬的 90%，因此在职业生涯的早期优化 10%、20%。

Mayur Kamat: If you have two jobs, I would rank in your first 15 years of your career, I would say do not look at the compensation.

Mayur Kamat：如果你有两份工作，我会排在你职业生涯的前 15 年，我会说不要看薪酬。

Then the last one, this was strange.

然后最后一个，这很奇怪。

I never thought about this longer, but now I think this is probably the most interesting advice I can give people is determine very early in your career if you truly want to be a C-level someday, you want to be an executive someday, because it's almost like if you're ambitious and successful, you enter product management.

我从来没有思考过这个问题，但现在我认为这可能是我能给人们的最有趣的建议，那就是在职业生涯的早期就确定，如果你真的想有一天成为 C 级，你想有一天成为一名高管，因为这几乎就像如果你雄心勃勃且成功，你就会进入产品管理。

You are in top of your, it's almost an expectation of you that you would become that and you'd never really challenge or question yourself, is this the thing that needs me, that I need to do to get there?

你处于你的巅峰，几乎是对你的期望，你会成为那样，但你从来没有真正挑战或质疑自己，这是需要我的事情，我需要做才能到达那里吗？

Is there something I'm going to truly enjoy?

有什么是我真正喜欢的吗？

Not just the destination but the process to get there.

不仅仅是目的地，还有到达目的地的过程。

Mayur Kamat: A lot of people think that and they make suboptimal decisions based on that.

Mayur Kamat：很多人都这么认为，并据此做出次优的决定。

There's incredible careers you can build and incredible lives that you can live by just being great at what you do, doing more of that stuff.

只要做好你所做的事情，做更多的事情，你就可以建立令人难以置信的职业生涯和令人难以置信的生活。

You end your career maybe as a director, maybe as a group product manager, but throughout the stuff, you have built a holistic life that doesn't revolve around your work and gives incredible meaning to you, or you can be saying, you know what?

你可能以总监、集团产品经理的身份结束你的职业生涯，但在整个过程中，你已经建立了一个整体的生活，它不以你的工作为中心，并赋予你难以置信的意义，或者你可以说，你知道吗？

Work is a huge part of my identity.

工作是我身份的重要组成部分。

Somebody asks me what wakes me up in the morning and what gives me that energy?

有人问我早上是什么叫醒我，什么给我能量？

It's my work.

这是我的工作。

I can't separate my identity from your work.

我无法将我的身份与你的工作分开。

Then maybe you should pursue that C-level path because it'll truly be fulfilling and you would be able to make those challenges and sacrifices that are going to be asked of you to make that.

那么也许你应该追求 C 级别的道路，因为它确实会让人感到满足，并且你将能够应对为此所要求的挑战和牺牲。

Mayur Kamat: If you can calibrate that early and have that true conversation with yourself like, "Yes, I want to go down that path and I want to do," you would make different career choices.

Mayur Kamat：如果你能尽早校准并与自己进行真正的对话，比如“是的，我想走那条路，我想做”，你就会做出不同的职业选择。

In that path, I would definitely say don't look at compensation.

在这条路上，我肯定会说不要考虑补偿。

There are two jobs.

有两个工作。

Look at the three things.

看三件事。

Is it going to give me high compounding of learning?

它会给我带来高复合的学习吗？

Is it high overlap with my strengths, and am I going to have a lot of fun doing it?

它与我的优势高度重叠吗？我会从中获得很多乐趣吗？

If you have fun doing it, then it becomes a virtuous cycle and you do more of it and you're great at it.

如果你乐在其中，那么它就会成为一个良性循环，你会做得更多，而且你会做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: On the question of decide if you want to be a CPO, essentially-

Lenny Rachitsky：关于决定是否想成为 CPO 的问题，本质上是——

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you want...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你想……

Decide if you want to be a CPO essentially, is the, the implication there is, if you do, that's a big sacrifice, you're going to be stressed.

决定你是否本质上想成为一名 CPO，这意味着，如果你这样做，那就是一个巨大的牺牲，你将会承受压力。

Work-life balance is worse.

工作与生活的平衡更差。

Is that kind of the core question?

这是核心问题吗？

Mayur Kamat: It's like, if you truly enjoy your work and what you're doing, it won't feel like a sacrifice.

Mayur Kamat：就像，如果你真正喜欢你的工作和你正在做的事情，那就不会感觉像是一种牺牲。

When you're constantly, when you look at a new product, you're walking down the street, you see a new product, you're on the app store, you see a new product, and you're like, "Oh, this is cool.

当你不断地看到一个新产品时，当你走在街上，你看到一个新产品，你在应用商店里，你看到一个新产品，你会想，“哦，这很酷。

Oh, look how they're doing the onboarding.

哦，看看他们是如何进行入职的。

Oh, look how the app store entry looks." If that truly fills you up, it fills your cup, every moment you're looking at why things can be better, how you can be better, how a certain thing...

哦，看看应用商店的入口是什么样子的。”如果这真的让你感到充实，它就会填满你的杯子，每时每刻你都会思考为什么事情可以变得更好，你如何才能变得更好，某件事如何......

You would, the sacrifice will not feel like sacrifices.

你会的，牺牲不会感觉像牺牲。

It'll not feel like you're working long hours.

不会让人感觉你在长时间工作。

You'll not feel, hey, when you're talking to PMs and giving them some guidances, when you're building things, when you're recruiting new people, all that stuff, it fills your cup, it doesn't drain it.

你不会觉得，嘿，当你与产品经理交谈并给他们一些指导时，当你构建东西时，当你招募新人时，所有这些东西，它会填满你的杯子，不会耗尽它。

Then you would have incredible fun on the journey.

那么您将会在旅途中享受到难以置信的乐趣。

So, it's less about that your sacrifices or work-life balance.

所以，这与你的牺牲或工作与生活的平衡无关。

Mayur Kamat: The moment you start having those conversations, you are probably not on that track.

Mayur Kamat：当你开始进行这些对话时，你可能还没有走上正轨。

You should not be on that track because the moment the word work-life balance comes, I think Jeff Bezos has this thing that he hates the word because it means there are opposite things that need to be balanced, right?

你不应该走上这条轨道，因为当工作与生活平衡这个词出现时，我认为杰夫·贝索斯有一个他讨厌这个词的东西，因为它意味着有相反的事情需要平衡，对吧？

It needs to be work-life awesomeness or something like that, where every moment is awesome whether you're working or you're living.

它需要是工作与生活的美妙或类似的东西，无论你是在工作还是在生活，每一刻都很棒。

But for some people, that comes naturally because that's how they're wired.

但对于某些人来说，这是很自然的，因为他们就是这样连接的。

And those people should absolutely pursue it because it would be incredibly fulfilling, and the things that are challenging would also feel not as onerous.

这些人绝对应该追求它，因为它会令人难以置信的满足，并且具有挑战性的事情也会感觉不那么繁重。

Whereas for everything else, it would feel like a sacrifice, could feel like something you need to balance.

而对于其他一切，这会感觉像是一种牺牲，可能感觉像是你需要平衡的东西。

And then you would, again, even if you're great at it, you're not going to have fun doing it, and at some point you will not be great at it.

然后，即使你很擅长，你也不会从中获得乐趣，而且在某些时候你也不会很擅长。

Lenny Rachitsky: For folks that are PMs today, there's almost an implication their career is heading towards CPO eventually.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于今天的产品经理来说，这几乎意味着他们的职业生涯最终将走向首席产品官。

That's kind of the ladder they're on.

这就是他们所处的梯子。

What are the, say, top three most common other options you've seen, other paths you've seen of folks that you manage, so that people can think about, "Okay, I don't need to maybe just keep climbing this ladder.

比如说，你见过的最常见的三个其他选择是什么，你所管理的人看到的其他路径是什么，这样人们就可以思考，“好吧，我可能不需要继续攀登这个阶梯。

There's these other directions I can go."

我还有其他的方向可以走。”

Mayur Kamat: I mean the number one, and that's I think back to your original question on N26, if you work in incredibly high growth companies, especially FinTech where there's a higher, people end up being founders because it's probably a whole different kind of track we can go down on, the founding your own company is probably the most kind of obvious/exciting alternate path.

Mayur Kamat：我的意思是第一，这就是我回想起你在 N26 上最初的问题，如果你在令人难以置信的高增长公司工作，特别是金融科技，那里有更高的人最终成为创始人，因为这可能是我们可以走的完全不同的轨道，创立自己的公司可能是最明显/最令人兴奋的替代路径。

The only thing I ask there is, again, the same question, what you're good at and what you love doing.

我唯一问的就是同样的问题，你擅长什么以及你喜欢做什么。

The challenges with founding a company is a large portion of running a company has nothing to do with building a great product, especially as the company gets bigger.

创办公司的挑战在于，经营一家公司的很大一部分与打造出色的产品无关，尤其是当公司规模不断扩大时。

I've worked for founders now for 17 of my 20-year career, right.

在我 20 年的职业生涯中，我已经为创始人工作了 17 年，对吧。

So, even at Google and stuff, Nikhil was my boss at Google, used to be a founder, and the CEOs now, the thing they tell me when they hire me is, "I wish I had your job," because that's what I used to do.

所以，即使在谷歌之类的公司，尼基尔也是我在谷歌的老板，曾经是创始人，现在的首席执行官，他们在雇用我时告诉我的是，“我希望我有你的工作”，因为这就是我过去所做的。

That's what I have loved doing, and now I spend 90% of my time doing stuff that is not the stuff that I truly enjoy.

这就是我喜欢做的事情，但现在我 90% 的时间都花在了那些不是我真正喜欢的事情上。

Mayur Kamat: But folks enjoy building stuff as a PM, there's a lot of things you don't have control over, and you feel like, "Hey, that's stopping me from growing.

Mayur Kamat：但是人们喜欢作为 PM 构建东西，有很多事情你无法控制，你会觉得，“嘿，这阻止了我成长。

That's what's topping me from truly enjoying." Founding is a great path.

这就是让我无法真正享受的原因。”创业是一条伟大的道路。

You have that control now, you own the decision-making.

你现在拥有控制权，你拥有决策权。

There's rarely times you can say, "Hey, this did not work because of that person." Right?

你很少会说：“嘿，因为那个人，这件事没能成功。”正确的？

If you're constantly hitting that, then founding is a great path for you because then you have the ball control for better or worse.

如果你经常击球，那么建垒对你来说是一条很好的道路，因为这样你就可以控制球，无论好坏。

Mayur Kamat: The other is just, I mean, it's less about being a CPO and just growing your breadth and your depth instead of just the ladder, right?

Mayur Kamat：另一个就是，我的意思是，这与成为 CPO 无关，而只是增加你的广度和深度，而不仅仅是阶梯，对吗？

So you are incredibly, either getting specialized in a specific domain where there is now enough value for you to separate yourself from the pack, whether it's, like in FinTech, now we have folks who are onboarding experts with KYC.

所以你难以置信，要么专注于一个特定的领域，现在有足够的价值让你从人群中脱颖而出，要么像金融科技一样，现在我们有 KYC 的入职专家。

We have people who are fraud experts, who have really great understanding of how card schemes work and how MasterCards work and where can we get the right incentives for the user.

我们有欺诈专家，他们非常了解信用卡计划的运作方式、万事达卡的运作方式以及我们在哪里可以为用户提供适当的激励。

The folks who are experts on customer loyalty and retention.

这些人是客户忠诚度和保留率方面的专家。

You build that domain expertise and then you realize that everyone needs that, right?

您建立了该领域的专业知识，然后您意识到每个人都需要它，对吧？

And that could be an incredible way to specialize.

这可能是一种令人难以置信的专业化方式。

So, you may lead growth at certain team even though you're not a CPO, right?

那么，即使您不是 CPO，您也可能会领导某个团队的增长，对吧？

So, that's kind of the second way of doing it.

所以，这是第二种方法。

Mayur Kamat: And the third one, again, just not to knock it out, is you realize that work is not going to be my big part of my identity.

Mayur Kamat：第三个，再次强调，只是你意识到工作不会成为我身份的重要组成部分。

My identity is, who am I as a parent?

我的身份是，作为父母我是谁？

Who am I as a community member?

作为社区成员，我是谁？

Who am I as a son to my parents?

作为父母的儿子，我是谁？

Who am I as an artist or a contributor?

作为艺术家或贡献者，我是谁？

And that's what my death is going to be, a well-rounded person.

这就是我的死亡方式，一个全面发展的人。

And a job is great, I'm great at it, but I'm going to do it as much as it's needed.

工作很棒，我很擅长，但我会按照需要去做。

And the value and meaning, the top part of the Maslow's pyramid comes from everything but work.

而价值和意义，马斯洛金字塔的顶端部分来自一切，除了工作。

And then< you just lead kind of a balanced life because then work is a certain portion of it and the rest kind of fills the picture.

然后<你就会过上一种平衡的生活，因为工作只是其中的一部分，其余的则填补了这个空白。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, just to summarize these four really good pieces of advice for how to essentially keep your career going and get unstuck and accelerated, is work at companies that are really high growth because your learnings will compound, and also the network you build, you didn't even mention that, that becomes really valuable because especially if the company does well, sometimes companies grow really well and there's extra benefits there, but even if they aren't, you still earn a lot.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，总结一下这四个非常好的建议，关于如何从根本上保持你的职业发展，摆脱困境和加速，在那些真正高增长的公司工作，因为你的学习会复合，还有你建立的网络，你甚至没有提到这一点，这变得非常有价值，因为特别是如果公司做得很好，有时公司发展得非常好，那里有额外的福利，但即使不是，你仍然赚很多。

Mayur Kamat: Absolutely.

马尤尔·卡马特：当然。

Well, let's say N26, one of the reasons why they have so many founders is the fact that it was a category defining, like we were the first kind of mobile bank, right?

好吧，比如说 N26，他们拥有如此多创始人的原因之一是它是一个类别定义，就像我们是第一种移动银行一样，对吧？

So, a lot of the problems we saw in early days, nobody else saw them, right?

所以，我们早期看到的很多问题，其他人都没有看到，对吗？

So, every product manager had to solve it for the very first time in history.

因此，每个产品经理都必须有史以来第一次解决这个问题。

And that kind of is a whole different level of kind of trial by fire.

这是一种完全不同级别的火的考验。

Same thing with .

同样的事情与 .

They both started about the same time.

他们俩几乎同时开始。

Those are the companies that show up in the top rankings because you did this before anybody could do it, and you learn by literally moving mountains.

这些公司出现在最高排名中，因为你在任何人都可以做到之前就做到了这一点，并且你通过真正的移山来学习。

I think two is also the fact that you see, we have this whole PayPal mafia.

我认为第二个也是你所看到的事实，我们有整个 PayPal 黑手党。

When you see this early success, everyone sees it together.

当你看到这种早期的成功时，每个人都会看到它。

So, when they go, they have that network, as you said, built-in.

因此，当他们离开时，正如你所说，他们拥有内置的网络。

Mayur Kamat: These are, maybe it's a product manager who starts a company, but maybe there is a business development manager who has also started this company and now you can collaborate and have partnerships.

Mayur Kamat：也许是产品经理创办了一家公司，但也许有一位业务开发经理也创办了这家公司，现在你们可以合作并建立伙伴关系。

So, that success, a mutual success, which a lot of early startup see, that creates kind of a more denser network than you working at a large company where not all of you see the success at the same time.

因此，这种成功，一种共同的成功，很多早期创业公司都看到了这一点，这创造了一个比在大公司工作更密集的网络，在大公司工作，并不是所有人都能同时看到成功。

And 3Ls comes down to the founders as well.

3L 也归结于创始人。

They're incredibly mission-driven founders.

他们是令人难以置信的使命驱动型创始人。

I always find it super admiring now when I look back at Valentine and Max here at N26, or I look at CZ.

现在当我回头看N26的Valentine和Max，或者我看CZ时，我总是觉得非常钦佩。

They have reached from a whatever metric you can define of success, whether it's the size of the company, whether it's the personal network, beyond whatever anybody would think success means, right?

他们已经达到了你可以定义的任何成功标准，无论是公司规模，还是个人网络，超出了任何人认为的成功意味着什么，对吗？

And then, to wake up every day and to do this hours and hours single day, every single day, you are driven by a whole.

然后，每天醒来，每天、每一天都做这几个小时，每一天，你都被一个整体所驱动。

Mayur Kamat: These are the voyagers of, these are the folks who would go explore new planets in the future or the folks who sailed out on the seas in 1600s to discover new land.

Mayur Kamat：这些人是航海者，这些人将在未来探索新的行星，或者在 1600 年代出海发现新大陆的人。

That being access to these people directly is extremely, extremely empowering.

直接接触这些人是非常非常有力量的。

You not just learn from it, but you get inspired by it.

你不仅可以从中学习，还可以从中得到启发。

If you have an X definition of success, now your definition of success is 10x, you automatically push the boundaries more.

如果您对成功有 X 定义，那么现在您对成功的定义是 10 倍，您会自动突破界限。

So, I think those two things are, or those three things, early start, category defining companies, mutual success and creation of dense networks, and just being inspired by incredibly, incredibly successful and talented people.

所以，我认为这两件事，或者三件事，早期开始，类别定义公司，共同成功和密集网络的创建，以及受到非常非常成功和才华横溢的人的启发。

Lenny Rachitsky: You pointed out this really interesting insight that I forgot to mention with the list of companies that seem to hire and create the strongest PMs.

Lenny Rachitsky：你指出了这个非常有趣的见解，我忘记在似乎雇用和创建最强大的产品经理的公司名单中提到这一点。

There's a lot of FinTech representation there, and I think you touched on why that might be the case because all these problems are extremely complicated and never been solved and they're solving at scale.

那里有很多金融科技代表，我想你谈到了为什么会出现这种情况，因为所有这些问题都非常复杂，从未得到解决，而且正在大规模解决。

Mayur Kamat: Here's the thing about FinTech, which is probably the most interesting is, FinTech, you have two customers.

Mayur Kamat：这就是关于金融科技的事情，这可能是最有趣的，金融科技，你有两个客户。

You have your usual customers and you have your regulator, and you need to keep both of them happy.

你有你的常客，你有你的监管者，你需要让他们都满意。

And usually, what makes one happy, it makes the other one less happy, right?

通常，让一个人快乐的事情，会让另一个人不那么快乐，对吧？

So, you are constantly dealing with trade-offs.

因此，您不断地进行权衡。

In most PMs, in most companies you have some trade-offs, but they're not existential.

在大多数 PM 中，在大多数公司中，你都会有一些权衡，但它们不是存在的。

Whereas in FinTech, every trade-off is existential.

而在金融科技领域，每一项权衡都是生死存亡的。

When you found a company, every trade-off is existential.

当你成立一家公司时，每一次权衡都是关乎生存的。

You may not exist as a business if you make a wrong decision.

如果您做出错误的决定，您可能无法作为企业存在。

In FinTech, a lot of the PMs see that day in day out, and that probably kind of conditions them to a whole different level of juggling balls than you would be a PM at other company.

在金融科技领域，许多 PM 日复一日地经历着这一点，这可能会让他们的玩杂技水平与你在其他公司的 PM 完全不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's such a good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是一个很好的观点。

Just really good stakeholder management influence dealing with all these trade-offs.

只有真正优秀的利益相关者管理才能影响处理所有这些权衡。

I think that's a really good point.

我认为这是一个很好的观点。

I'm going to come back to the strength stuff because that's really important and I've been meaning to come back to it.

我将回到力量方面，因为这非常重要，而且我一直想回到它。

So, just to reflect back, the four things you pointed out are really what you want to look for to accelerate your career.

所以，回想一下，你指出的四件事确实是你想要加速你的职业生涯的东西。

Companies that are growing really fast, working on things that you're good at, and finding a role that leverages your strengths versus things that you're not good at.

这些公司发展得非常快，致力于做你擅长的事情，并找到一个能够利用你的优势而不是你不擅长的事情的职位。

Not optimizing for comp really is such a good point there.

不针对比较进行优化确实是一个很好的观点。

Your point essentially is you'll make most of your comp later, probably the 50%.

你的观点本质上是你稍后会获得大部分补偿，可能是 50%。

The second half of your career, you probably make, I don't know, 10 times more than you make the first part of your career.

我不知道，你职业生涯后半段的收入可能是你职业生涯前半段收入的 10 倍。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so, optimize for the future cop, not today's comp.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，优化未来的警察，而不是今天的警察。

And then this idea of making sure, ask yourself, do you want to be CPO?

然后，问问自己，你想成为 CPO 吗？

Do you want to go down the C-suite route or do you want to maybe probably plan to start a company, something else?

你想走上最高管理层的道路，还是想计划创办一家公司，或者其他什么？

And that informs the role you're in.

这告诉你你所扮演的角色。

Coming back to the strength stuff, how do people figure out their strengths?

回到力量这个话题，人们如何找出自己的优势？

Do you have any advice for someone sitting around, they're like, "What am I actually good at?

对于那些坐在旁边的人，你有什么建议吗，他们会说：“我实际上擅长什么？

I don't know."

我不知道。”

Mayur Kamat: So, there's several ways to do it.

Mayur Kamat：所以，有几种方法可以做到这一点。

I remember I read this book, this was, I don't think it shaped my understanding of it because I was already operating in that mode, but it used to be called Now Discover Your Strengths.

我记得我读过这本书，我不认为它影响了我对它的理解，因为我已经在这种模式下操作，但它曾经被称为“现在发现你的优势”。

I think now it's called Strength Finder 2.0.

我想现在它被称为力量发现者2.0。

It's still 20 years old now, but there's a lot more newer ways to do it.

现在它已经有 20 年历史了，但是有很多更新的方法可以做到这一点。

There are two things I have done and they're both kind of, I'm not sure how accessible they are, but I'll give you the examples.

我做过两件事，我不确定它们有多容易理解，但我会给你举一些例子。

So, at a Agoda, we used to pay a psychologist $5,000 for every single PM we interview, right?

那么，在 Agoda，我们过去每采访一位 PM 就要向心理学家支付 5,000 美元，对吗？

So, after you finish your PM rounds, we would send you to this psych assessment.

因此，在您完成 PM 轮次后，我们将送您进行心理评估。

It would be a six-hour psych assessment and they would tell me what your strengths are, not just that it would be an IQ component.

这将是一个为期六个小时的心理评估，他们会告诉我你的优势是什么，而不仅仅是智商部分。

Mayur Kamat: So, we would know what percentile you are, and not just like an IQ score like Einstein or not, but IQ score across different, across pattern recognition or structured thinking, across numerical ability, verbal ability, right?

Mayur Kamat：所以，我们会知道你的百分位数，不仅仅是像爱因斯坦那样的智商得分，而是不同的智商得分，跨越模式识别或结构化思维，跨越数字能力、语言能力，对吗？

So, a lot of people say they hire the smartest people.

所以，很多人说他们雇佣了最聪明的人。

At Agoda, we literally hired the smartest people because we paid the psychologist a lot of money to tell whether they're smart or not.

在 Agoda，我们确实雇佣了最聪明的人，因为我们付给心理学家很多钱来判断他们是否聪明。

But other than that, they also give you your strengths and weaknesses.

但除此之外，他们还告诉你你的优点和缺点。

It used to be called, I know the company still around, it's called Q4, and it's called Q4 because they had this four quadrants on two axes, one is on dominance and one is on warmth, right?

它曾经被称为，我知道这家公司仍然存在，它被称为 Q4，之所以被称为 Q4，是因为他们在两个轴上有四个象限，一个是主导性的，一个是温暖性的，对吗？

So, you want people who are high dominance, high warmth in the 4 quadrant, and that as you can realize, if you also want smart people, to find those who land in that quadrant is literally looking through a needle through a haystack.

所以，你想要在第四象限中具有高统治力、高热情的人，正如你所意识到的，如果你也想要聪明的人，找到那些落在第四象限的人实际上是大海捞针。

Mayur Kamat: But when I, I almost didn't do it.

Mayur Kamat：但是当我的时候，我几乎没有这么做。

I was like, this is like I've been doing products for 15 years, this is insulting that I need to go do a six hour...

我当时想，这就像我已经做了 15 年的产品一样，这是侮辱，我需要去做六个小时......

The only reason I did it at that time was my son was four and a half years old and I was teaching him, because you're going to go to kindergarten, I was starting do some math with him, and then in six months he knew all the math that I knew.

我当时这样做的唯一原因是我的儿子四岁半了，我正在教他，因为你要去幼儿园，我开始和他一起做一些数学，然后在六个月内他就知道了我所知道的所有数学。

He was solving quadratic equations and stuff.

他正在解二次方程之类的东西。

And we thought, oh, we have a genius in the house.

我们想，哦，我们家里有一个天才。

We got to get him tested.

我们必须对他进行测试。

So, we were testing him, and that's the only reason I took this test because I thought it would be interesting to understand what this process looks like.

所以，我们正在测试他，这是我参加这个测试的唯一原因，因为我认为了解这个过程是什么样子会很有趣。

But then when I got the results, I was like, it was so spot on.

但当我得到结果时，我想，这太准确了。

Mayur Kamat: It was incredibly spot on in saying areas where I would do well, areas where I would struggle and need help.

Mayur Kamat：它非常准确地指出了我会做得很好的领域、我会遇到困难并需要帮助的领域。

So, that's one way to do it.

所以，这是一种方法。

It's super extreme.

这是超级极端的。

A little bit a year, two years ago, we had the .

大约一年、两年前，我们有了 .

CZ is good friends with Ray Dalio.

CZ 和 Ray Dalio 是好朋友。

So, we had Ray Dalio come to our executive offsite, and he walked us through how he and his company does strengths assessment.

因此，我们请雷·达利奥 (Ray Dalio) 来到我们的异地高管处，他向我们介绍了他和他的公司如何进行优势评估。

So he has a, that one is lot more accessible.

所以他有一个，那个更容易接近。

I think it costs like $50.

我认为它的成本约为 50 美元。

You can go to, I think you search for Ray Dalio's strengths, there's a website that you can go and...

你可以去，我想你搜索雷·达里奥的优势，有一个网站你可以去......

The way it works, slightly differently for executives because you do it, so those are your components, tells you how good you think you are, and then it has your leadership team vote you on certain different aspects.

它的工作方式对于高管来说略有不同，因为你这样做，所以这些是你的组成部分，告诉你你认为你有多优秀，然后它让你的领导团队在某些不同方面对你进行投票。

So, there's a two layer assessment, how good you think you are and how good everybody else think you are.

所以，有一个两层评估，你认为自己有多好，以及其他人认为你有多好。

Mayur Kamat: And then, the overlap is where your true strengths are.

Mayur Kamat：然后，重叠就是你真正的优势所在。

And as a CEO, I can say, "Oh, Mayur is great at design.

作为首席执行官，我可以说：“哦，Mayur 非常擅长设计。

Everybody else knows that Mayur is great at design.

其他人都知道 Mayur 擅长设计。

We should give design problems to Mayur." Right?

我们应该把设计问题交给马尤尔。”正确的？

So, that's another way of kind of...

所以，这是另一种方式......

So, there's a scientific way of doing this and it's gotten a lot better since I read that book long time ago.

所以，有一种科学的方法可以做到这一点，而且自从我很久以前读过那本书以来，它已经变得更好了。

Again, if you're truly, truly curious, it doesn't take that long and now it's a lot more accessible.

再说一遍，如果您真的非常好奇，那么不需要那么长时间，而且现在更容易获得。

That's one way to do it.

这是一种方法。

And it kind of separates in terms of execution, in terms of structured thinking, innovation and design, creativity, stakeholder management, EQ.

它在执行、结构化思维、创新和设计、创造力、利益相关者管理、情商方面有所不同。

You get a little bit of a more scientific picture on what your strengths are.

您会对自己的优势有更科学的了解。

But this is also a simpler way.

但这也是一种更简单的方法。

Mayur Kamat: As a PM, you do pretty much a large portion.

Mayur Kamat：作为一名产品经理，你承担了相当大的一部分。

Everybody does the same few things, right?

每个人都做同样的几件事，对吗？

You think you're designing the roadmap, you are coming up with what you think is the product strategy.

你认为你正在设计路线图，你正在提出你认为的产品策略。

There's a lot of time around just managing engineers, making sure they do stuff.

有很多时间只是管理工程师，确保他们做事。

There's stakeholder management, marketing, compliance, whatever.

有利益相关者管理、营销、合规等等。

There's launch and just tracking data analytics.

有启动和跟踪数据分析。

So, this part is true for most PMs.

所以，这部分对于大多数产品经理来说都是正确的。

Some jobs require more of one versus the other.

有些工作需要更多的其中一项工作。

And you just know when you do these things, which ones one you're truly great at and you have a lot of fun doing, right?

当你做这些事情的时候，你就知道哪一件是你真正擅长的，而且你做起来很有趣，对吧？

Maybe you just don't like Jira and the ticket tracking and just following people on that, and that's the worst part of your job.

也许您只是不喜欢 Jira 和票务跟踪，并且只是跟踪人们，这是您工作中最糟糕的部分。

Stay away from more structured complex stakeholder management jobs.

远离更加结构化、复杂的利益相关者管理工作。

Or you find that, hey, you do really well at that and somebody ask you, "Hey, what are the 15 things we're going to do next week to improve a conversion?"

或者你发现，嘿，你在这方面做得非常好，有人问你，“嘿，我们下周要做什么来提高转化率？”

Mayur Kamat: That's where you kind of have a hard time, you just sit down, spend hours thinking about it, then maybe that's not your strength.

Mayur Kamat：这就是你会遇到困难的地方，你只是坐下来，花几个小时思考它，然后也许这不是你的强项。

And so over time, you kind of build this self calibration on areas that you have fun doing and areas where you don't have.

所以随着时间的推移，你会在你感兴趣的领域和你不感兴趣的领域建立这种自我校准。

And then, when you look at the next job, just try and gauge, are they hiring me because I did really well at some of the stuff that I didn't love doing?

然后，当你考虑下一份工作时，试着衡量一下，他们雇用我是因为我在一些我不喜欢做的事情上做得很好吗？

And if that's what they're hiring you for, probably you're not going to have a lot of fun or high acceleration if you go there.

如果这就是他们雇用你的目的，那么如果你去那里，你可能不会有很多乐趣或高加速。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much there.

Lenny Rachitsky：那里有很多东西。

There's I think an important point that I'll add, and I'm curious if you agree.

我想补充一个重要的观点，我很好奇你是否同意。

A lot of new people or new people in their career, like, "Oh, I just want to think about strategy.

很多新人或职业生涯的新人都会说，“哦，我只是想考虑一下策略。

I'm going to think about the big picture.

我会考虑大局。

I don't want to just sit there and optimize the roadmap and be in Jira." But it's actually, that's your job when you're just starting out.

我不想只是坐在那里优化路线图并留在 Jira 中。”但事实上，这就是你刚刚起步时的工作。

You need to earn the right to contribute to the vision, to the strategy.

您需要赢得为愿景和战略做出贡献的权利。

Mayur Kamat: There's one of the, and as a pre-conversation we talk about contrary and view, product strategy by definition seems like a...

Mayur Kamat：有一个，作为预对话，我们谈论相反和观点，从定义上看，产品策略似乎是......

This is going to be controversial.

这将会引起争议。

Mayur Kamat: Not really...

马尤尔·卡马特：不是真的……

Those two words feel very at odds with each other for me.

这两个词对我来说感觉非常矛盾。

A product, you have hypotheses and if you can test it, you don't need a strategy.

对于一个产品，你有假设，如果你可以测试它，你就不需要策略。

Right?

正确的？

If I say, "Hey, if I build this and I know this will add this much users and this time with this conversion rate, this customer acquisition cost and this LTV," that's your hypothesis and you could test it in the market very quickly.

如果我说，“嘿，如果我构建这个，我知道这会增加这么多用户，而且这次具有这样的转化率、客户获取成本和生命周期价值”，这就是你的假设，你可以很快在市场上对其进行测试。

And if it works, you have your strategy.

如果它有效，你就有了你的策略。

Keep doing more of it.

继续做更多这样的事情。

Strategy is always keep doing more of it or don't do it, right?

策略总是要么做更多，要么不做，对吗？

That's all that is to strategy.

这就是战略的全部内容。

The key part is just figuring out which one goes in which bucket.

关键部分只是弄清楚哪个放入哪个桶中。

And if you're really executing fast enough in a kind of structured, experimentation-driven manner, your strategy becomes a largely solved problem.

如果你确实以一种结构化的、实验驱动的方式足够快地执行，那么你的策略就会在很大程度上解决问题。

So, for most, and that's a challenge.

所以，对于大多数人来说，这是一个挑战。

Mayur Kamat: A lot of people think strategy is about looking at Porter's forces, a lot of slides, we're looking at some data and slicing it and saying, "We need to go here or there." All of it is largely in some sort of package intuition.

Mayur Kamat：很多人认为战略就是看波特的力量，很多幻灯片，我们正在看一些数据并对其进行切片并说，“我们需要去这里或那里。”所有这一切很大程度上都取决于某种封装直觉。

And the challenge with that is, usually you go with the loudest voice in the room.

挑战在于，通常你会选择房间里声音最大的人。

And if you're a junior in your career, it's a very frustrating exercise because you think you know the strategy better.

如果你是职业生涯的初级者，这是一个非常令人沮丧的练习，因为你认为你更了解策略。

But it's all it is.

但仅此而已。

It's a sense of package intuition, and then the guy with the loudest, biggest title or the loudest voice is going to go do it.

这是一种一揽子直觉，然后拥有最响亮、最大头衔或最大声音的人就会去做。

It was very early in my career, Jonathan Rosenberg, he was the head of, he was the CPO at Google.

那是我职业生涯的早期，乔纳森·罗森伯格（Jonathan Rosenberg），他是谷歌的负责人，他是谷歌的首席产品官。

Mayur Kamat: All the PMs reported to him.

Mayur Kamat：所有总理都向他汇报。

He was not called the CPO back then.

那时他还不被称为CPO。

And he had this one thing he would say all the time that, "Come to me with data.

他有一件事情他总是会说：“带着数据来找我。

If you come to me with ideas, we'll go with mine." Right?

如果你来找我提出想法，我们就会同意我的想法。”正确的？

That was the saying.

就是这么一句话。

You can come with any ideas, we're just going to do what I think, but unless you come with strong sense of proof to override me.

你可以提出任何想法，我们只是按照我的想法去做，但除非你有强烈的证据意识来推翻我。

So again, strategy is a little bit overrated for product.

再说一遍，战略对于产品来说有点被高估了。

For market expansions, for investments, for licenses, compliance, there's several areas where it makes sense and it's kind of useful.

对于市场扩张、投资、许可、合规性来说，它在几个领域都有意义并且有用。

But for most product managers, your strategy should be, how fast can I go from hypothesis to data, right?

但对于大多数产品经理来说，你的策略应该是，我能多快从假设到数据，对吧？

The faster you can go there, the easier your strategy gets.

你到达那里的速度越快，你的策略就越容易。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is certainly a hot take.

Lenny Rachitsky：这确实是一个热门观点。

So the idea here, I'm curious how you operationalize this with folks at N26.

所以我很好奇你如何与 N26 的人员一起实施这个想法。

Is it just like, "I don't need to see a whole strategy for the year.

是不是就像“我不需要看到今年的整体战略？

Just give me, here's the plan, here's what we're going to test, here's our hypothesis?" Are you actually, what do you tell your PM team?

只要给我，这是计划，这是我们要测试的内容，这是我们的假设？”实际上，您会告诉您的 PM 团队什么？

Mayur Kamat: We use this tool.

Mayur Kamat：我们使用这个工具。

I'm going to give a shout-out to Statsig because they're awesome.

我要为 Statsig 点赞，因为他们太棒了。

Vijay used to run the experimentation at Facebook and has this tool.

Vijay 曾经在 Facebook 进行过实验并拥有这个工具。

There's several of those.

其中有好几个。

But if you're running proper experiments, I just look at the Statsig dashboards, right?

但如果您正在进行正确的实验，我只需查看 Statsig 仪表板，对吧？

And I'm looking at experiments, I'm looking at what metrics they're moving, I'm looking at the P-value, I'm looking at how quickly can they get to statistical significance.

我正在研究实验，我正在研究它们正在移动哪些指标，我正在研究 P 值，我正在研究它们能够以多快的速度达到统计显着性。

And I'm like, "Oh, this is working.

我想，“哦，这很有效。

Let's do more of these." Right?

让我们多做一些这样的事情吧。”正确的？

So, now there's some areas where you can't do it, like in compliance, in legal aspects, in Europe, especially pricing.

所以，现在有些领域是你无法做到的，比如在欧洲的合规性、法律方面，尤其是定价。

In US, you can run pricing tests.

在美国，您可以进行定价测试。

In Europe, it's a little bit different.

在欧洲，情况略有不同。

So, those areas, you would need to have a lot more kind of deeper thinking, understanding of your cohorts.

因此，在这些领域，您需要对您的同类进行更深入的思考和理解。

You're coming up with more structured reason for why you should do it, but you can't really test and know within a couple of days or a couple of weeks at max whether this was a good idea or not.

你会想出更结构化的理由来解释为什么你应该这样做，但你无法在几天或最多几周内真正测试并知道这是否是一个好主意。

Mayur Kamat: Those, if there are either irreversible decisions or they're just extremely time-consuming to find out, then do some pre-work.

Mayur Kamat：如果存在不可逆转的决定，或者找出这些决定非常耗时，那么就做一些前期工作。

We look at largely, find a lot of companies that really look at data without looking at cohorts that make completely bad decisions, right, because if you look at your dashboard as a mixture of users over 10 years, 20 years, even six months, and they all behave differently.

我们进行了大范围的观察，发现很多公司真正关注数据，而不关注做出完全错误决策的群体，对吧，因为如果你将你的仪表板视为 10 年、20 年甚至 6 个月内用户的混合体，他们的行为都会有所不同。

If you look at a cohort level development of certain users, you generally end up making better decisions.

如果您查看某些用户的群组水平发展，您通常最终会做出更好的决策。

But even over there, it's still lot more, there's a lot of noise between the moment you start tracking it than moment you start making decisions based on it.

但即使在那里，它仍然更多，从你开始跟踪它的那一刻到你开始根据它做出决策的那一刻之间存在很多噪音。

The world has changed in that meantime.

世界在此期间发生了变化。

By now, this was kind of a very foreign concept when I brought this in.

到目前为止，当我引入这个概念时，这是一个非常陌生的概念。

I'm like, oh, the conversions down now, even though the product's done really well because Bitcoin has crashed, right?

我想，哦，现在的转化率下降了，尽管该产品做得非常好，因为比特币已经崩溃了，对吧？

Mayur Kamat: Nobody wants to go sign up for an Exchange account.

Mayur Kamat：没有人愿意去注册 Exchange 帐户。

So, if you just measure pre and post, you would think that you have done something wrong in the product.

所以，如果你只衡量事前和事后，你会认为你在产品中做错了什么。

If you measure it as an experiment, you would know that, yeah, between the variant and control, it's still doing great, even though overall conversion is down.

如果你把它作为一个实验来衡量，你就会知道，是的，在变体和对照之间，它仍然表现得很好，尽管整体转化率下降了。

So largely, the more you kind of, one of the first thing kind of doing when I take on a role, the company already doesn't have an experimentation culture.

很大程度上，当我担任一个职位时，你做的第一件事就是，公司已经没有实验文化了。

That's largely why they hire me in the first place, right?

这很大程度上就是他们首先雇用我的原因，对吗？

Mayur Kamat: So, for now, the first thing is to say, how can we bring it in?

Mayur Kamat：所以，现在首先要说的是，我们如何将其引入？

First, the kind of right culture, the right incentives and the right tools.

首先，正确的文化、正确的激励措施和正确的工具。

And then, once it's set up, it gets a lot of fun.

一旦设置完毕，就会变得很有趣。

Get a lot of fun for the PMs because you have democratized performance for the product managers.

因为产品经理的绩效实现了民主化，所以产品经理可以从中获得很多乐趣。

And the second thing, which I tell my PMs now, which is truly kind of empowering if you think about it, the challenge with being a product manager is everybody thinks they can do their job, right?

第二件事，我现在告诉我的产品经理，如果你仔细想想，这确实是一种授权，作为产品经理的挑战是每个人都认为他们可以完成自己的工作，对吗？

You go to...

你去...

The CFO might have an idea, the head of kind of accounting has an idea.

首席财务官可能有一个想法，会计主管有一个想法。

Anybody who uses the product thinks they have ideas, right?

任何使用该产品的人都认为他们有想法，对吧？

Mayur Kamat: So, at some point in time, you're like, what is my discipline?

Mayur Kamat：所以，在某个时候，你会想，我的纪律是什么？

What is my science?

我的科学是什么？

Nobody goes to the accounting guy and says, "Hey, I have a great idea for how to cook our books." Nobody does that because there's a science behind it.

没有人去找会计人员说：“嘿，我有一个关于如何做账的好主意。”没有人这样做，因为它背后有科学依据。

There's a science for financial forecasting.

财务预测是一门科学。

Even in technology, a lot of the times people just don't go and say, "Hey, just dump this thing and let's use this code that the AI code generator has used." Right?

即使在技术领域，很多时候人们也不会说：“嘿，扔掉这个东西，让我们使用人工智能代码生成器使用过的代码。”正确的？

There's a little bit of science there.

这里面有一点科学道理。

Mayur Kamat: Whereas in product, you largely find that it's a combination of data and ideas and stuff, and anybody thinks they can...

Mayur Kamat：而在产品中，你很大程度上会发现它是数据、想法和东西的结合，任何人都认为他们可以......

The moment you build experimentation, you'll now make it scientific, right?

当你进行实验的那一刻，你就会让它变得科学，对吗？

Now, somebody comes up with an idea, say, that's a bad idea.

现在，有人想出了一个主意，说这是一个坏主意。

Here, this is why it's a bad idea, because we have done this experiment six times and it has failed across this user groups at this exact level of impact created.

在这里，这就是为什么这是一个坏主意，因为我们已经进行了六次这个实验，但它在这个用户组中以所产生的确切影响水平失败了。

So, it kind of gives the PMs the kind of, hey, I'm not just a general purpose technician, I'm a specialist now.

所以，这让产品经理觉得，嘿，我不仅仅是一名通用技术人员，我现在是一名专家了。

And it's extremely empowering once we can, it takes a long time to move the team in that direction.

一旦我们能够做到这一点，它就会非常有力量，但需要很长时间才能让团队朝这个方向发展。

But once you get it there, the PMs just, it's a natural kind of dopamine hit every time you run an experiment and see more metrics.

但一旦你做到了这一点，项目经理们，每次你进行实验并看到更多指标时，就会自然而然地产生多巴胺。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm a huge fan of experimentation.

Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢实验。

I think most guests on this podcast are on your side of the debate.

我认为这个播客中的大多数嘉宾都站在你这一方。

I feel like we could do a whole podcast episode on just how to create a culture of experimentation, how to change culture.

我觉得我们可以做一整集播客，讲述如何创造一种实验文化，如何改变文化。

This episode is brought to you by Vanta, and I am very excited to have Christina Cacioppo, CEO and co founder of Vanta joining me for this very short conversation.

本集由 Vanta 为您带来，我很高兴 Vanta 首席执行官兼联合创始人克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波 (Christina Cacioppo) 与我一起进行这个简短的对话。

Christina Cacioppo: Great to be here.

克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波：很高兴来到这里。

Big fan of the podcast and the newsletter.

播客和时事通讯的忠实粉丝。

Lenny Rachitsky: Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show, but for some of our newer listeners, what does Vanta do and who is-

Lenny Rachitsky：Vanta 是该节目的长期赞助商，但对于我们的一些新听众来说，Vanta 是做什么的以及谁是-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

show, but for some of our newer listeners, what does Vanta do and who is it for?

节目，但对于我们的一些新听众来说，Vanta 是做什么的？它是为谁而做的？

Speaker 1: Sure.

发言者 1：当然。

So we started Vanta in 2018, focused on founders, helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications like SOC 2 or ISO 27001.

因此，我们于 2018 年创立了 Vanta，专注于创始人，帮助他们开始构建自己的安全计划，并通过 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 等合规性认证为所有艰苦的安全工作赢得赞誉。

Today, we currently help over 9,000 companies, including some startup household names like Atlassian, Ramp, and LangChain start and scale their security programs and ultimately build trust by automating compliance, centralizing GRC, and accelerating security reviews.

如今，我们目前帮助超过 9,000 家公司（包括 Atlassian、Ramp 和 LangChain 等一些家喻户晓的初创公司）启动和扩展其安全计划，并最终通过自动化合规性、集中 GRC 和加速安全审查来建立信任。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I know from experience that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources and nobody wants to spend time doing this.

我从经验中知道，这些事情需要花费大量时间和资源，没有人愿意花时间来做这件事。

Speaker 1: That is very much our experience, but before the company.

发言人 1：这就是我们的经验，但是在公司成立之前。

And to some extent during it, but the idea is with automation with AI, with software, we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way.

在某种程度上，我们的想法是通过人工智能和软件的自动化，我们正在帮助客户以有效的方式与潜在客户和客户建立信任。

And our joke, we started this compliance company, so you don't have to.

我们开玩笑说，我们创办了这家合规公司，所以你不必这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: We appreciate you for doing that and you have a special discount for listeners, they can get a thousand dollars off Vanta at vanta.com/lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们感谢您这样做，并且您为听众提供了特别折扣，他们可以在vanta.com/lenny 上从Vanta 获得一千美元。

That's V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny for $1,000 off Vanta.

访问 V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny，Vanta 优惠 1,000 美元。

Thanks for that, Christina.

谢谢你，克里斯蒂娜。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to the question of what N26 has done well to create and hire great PMs.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到 N26 在培养和聘用优秀 PM 方面做得很好的问题。

So you've spent a bunch of time on here's career advice that I often give and what has helps people most in their career.

所以你花了很多时间来了解我经常给出的职业建议以及对人们职业生涯最有帮助的建议。

Just to kind of close this thread, is there anything N26 did or is doing that either from the hiring perspective or from training?

最后，从招聘的角度或从培训的角度来看，N26 是否做过或正在做任何事情？

I know you haven't been there from the beginning, just like as a business, as a company that they've done really well that other companies may want to copy.

我知道你从一开始就没有做到这一点，就像作为一家企业一样，作为一家他们做得非常好的公司，其他公司可能想复制。

Mayur Kamat: Some of it is just the hiring philosophy.

Mayur Kamat：其中一些只是招聘理念。

One of the advantages you get for being a big fish in a small pond is you get to have your pick of the cream of the crop.

作为小池塘里的大鱼，你所获得的优势之一就是你可以选择其中的精华。

So in Europe here where we don't have the same level of unicorn or decacorn density you have in the Bay Area being one of the first ones or the few ones, you do get a little bit of that branding working in your favor.

因此，在欧洲，我们没有像湾区那样的独角兽或十角兽密度，成为最早或少数的独角兽或十角兽，但你确实会得到一些对你有利的品牌效应。

So some portion of that is just the input.

所以其中的一部分只是输入。

If you're taking really smart people, very chance at N26 they will stay smart.

如果你带的是真正聪明的人，那么在 N26 他们很有可能会保持聪明。

Two is again, the level of problems that they work on are harder.

第二，他们所解决的问题的难度更大。

Just the print tech angle we mentioned and now with this whole experimentation driven kind of change that we made in the last year or so, there's also a new kind of tool kit that they get, especially if they're going for larger big growth company as the next step of the career.

只是我们提到的印刷技术角度，现在随着我们在去年左右所做的整个实验驱动的改变，他们还获得了一种新的工具包，特别是如果他们打算进入更大的成长型公司作为职业生涯的下一步。

Mayur Kamat: All the people companies I talk to, the amount of companies that are truly world-class at experimentation is so low that if you work in one of these companies and you build this tool set, you can build a whole career on this.

Mayur Kamat：在我采访过的所有公司中，真正在实验方面处于世界一流水平的公司数量非常少，如果你在其中一家公司工作并构建了这套工具，你就可以在此基础上建立整个职业生涯。

You can go to any other company and say, "This is what I'm going to bring to the table." Because there's no growth without, as I said, without compounding wins faster.

你可以去任何其他公司并说：“这就是我要提供的东西。”因为正如我所说，如果没有更快的复利，就没有增长。

Nothing compounds wins faster than experiments and there's no company out in the world that says we don't want to grow.

没有什么比实验更能更快地实现复合成功，世界上没有一家公司表示我们不想发展。

So that is an incredible kind of brand that you can build alongside with it.

所以这是一个令人难以置信的品牌，你可以与之一起打造。

Then the third piece is just the scale.

那么第三块就只是尺度了。

One of the other interesting aspects of banking is what I call a hundred percent product.

银行业其他有趣的方面之一是我所说的百分百产品。

It's actually more than a hundred percent, they're more bank accounts than human beings because a lot of people have more than one bank account.

实际上超过百分之一百，他们的银行账户比人类还多，因为很多人拥有多个银行账户。

Mayur Kamat: So you never run out of target addressable market.

Mayur Kamat：所以你永远不会用完目标可寻址市场。

It's as big as it can get, which means that there's no upper bound on how much...

它是尽可能大的，这意味着没有上限......

Because at some point if you're, I don't know, building in kind of an AI code generator, your market is capped that maybe developers or people want to be developers.

因为在某些时候，如果你（我不知道）构建了某种人工智能代码生成器，那么你的市场就会受到限制，也许开发人员或人们想成为开发人员。

Or you're building, I don't know, AWS, it's a massive market, but it's still like all the company that need online hosting.

或者你正在构建，我不知道，AWS，这是一个巨大的市场，但它仍然像所有需要在线托管的公司一样。

They look at banking everybody needs and the fact that it's oldest or the second oldest, depending on how risky you are or not...

他们着眼于每个人都需要的银行业务，以及它是最古老还是第二古老的事实，这取决于你的风险有多大......

Or profession known to man.

或人类已知的职业。

It is a self-hedged product.

它是一种自我对冲产品。

When things get tough on one side of our business, the interest rates, let's say, go high, spending goes down, but we make money on deposits.

当我们业务的一方面变得困难时，利率就会升高，支出就会下降，但我们可以通过存款赚钱。

When interest rates go down, spending increases, so we make more your money on interchange, investments.

当利率下降时，支出就会增加，因此我们可以通过交换和投资为您赚更多的钱。

So it's a very self-hedged business that lets you go through the troughs and the peaks better than most companies.

所以这是一个非常自我对冲的业务，可以让你比大多数公司更好地度过低谷和高峰。

Mayur Kamat: And that understanding that how do you build naturally hedged products is probably another kind of reason why...

Mayur Kamat：了解如何构建自然对冲产品可能是另一种原因......

It just influences how you make decisions and how do you kind of scale your core product portfolio.

它只会影响您如何做出决策以及如何扩展您的核心产品组合。

Just one example, for about a year and a half ago, we were largely year bank with a card and we were the first mobile bank and that was a big enough market.

仅举一个例子，大约一年半前，我们基本上是一家有卡的银行，我们是第一家移动银行，这是一个足够大的市场。

But in the last year or so, we have just fleshed out that product portfolio.

但在过去一年左右的时间里，我们刚刚充实了该产品组合。

We have a big lending portfolio now.

我们现在拥有庞大的贷款组合。

We launched savings last year.

我们去年推出了储蓄计划。

We invested heavily in savings because the interest rates were high, was a super amazing tool to attract new users by offering high interest rates.

我们在储蓄上投入了大量资金，因为利率很高，这是通过提供高利率来吸引新用户的超级惊人工具。

Mayur Kamat: But as the interest rates are going down now, which is investing heavily in lending because now you can get loans for lower prices, which was super hard to get last year.

Mayur Kamat：但是随着利率现在下降，我们正在大力投资贷款，因为现在你可以以更低的价格获得贷款，而这在去年是非常难获得的。

So being able to build products that complement the macro also gives you that kind of additional balancing act that you don't get in typical single focus companies.

因此，能够构建与宏观互补的产品还可以为您提供额外的平衡行为，这是典型的单一焦点公司所没有的。

So I think it's a combination of few of those things, being able to get great talent, being able to train them now more so especially around experimentation and just see how we can build a product portfolio that complements each other but also naturally hedges against each other, just gives you a better, well-balanced way to operate.

所以我认为这是这些因素的结合，能够获得优秀的人才，能够对他们进行更多的培训，尤其是在实验方面，看看我们如何建立一个相互补充但又自然对冲的产品组合，只会给你一个更好、更平衡的运营方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think this explains something really interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这解释了一些非常有趣的事情。

As you were talking, I realized that a lot of these companies that produce the best PMs are to your point, non-US based, but incredibly successful in their location.

正如您所说，我意识到许多培养出最优秀产品经理的公司都符合您的观点，虽然总部不在美国，但在其所在地区却取得了令人难以置信的成功。

And so it draws in the most talented people in that region.

因此它吸引了该地区最有才华的人才。

So I know Intercom I think technically is...

所以我知道对讲机，我认为从技术上讲......

So Intercom was number one on this list of companies that produce the best PMs.

因此，Intercom 在培养最佳 PM 的公司名单中名列第一。

Intercom, Palantir, Revolut, and then N26, Chime, Stripe, Dropbox were kind of at the top.

Intercom、Palantir、Revolut，然后是 N26、Chime、Stripe、Dropbox 名列前茅。

And four of those essentially, or three of those are non...

其中四个本质上是，或者其中三个不是......

Intercom I think was Ireland for a lot of their team is based in Ireland.

对讲机我认为是爱尔兰，因为他们的很多团队都位于爱尔兰。

Then Revolut is the UK and then you guys.

然后 Revolut 就是英国，然后就是你们。

So it's interesting, that explains some really interesting insights of just be the best, be the big fish in a small pond, draw in the best talent and then work on really hard problems and be really successful.

所以这很有趣，这解释了一些非常有趣的见解，即成为最好的，成为小池塘里的大鱼，吸引最优秀的人才，然后解决真正困难的问题并取得真正的成功。

There you go.

就这样吧。

There's a formula.

有一个公式。

Mayur Kamat: Yes, yes.

马尤尔·卡马特：是的，是的。

It's very simple when you put it that way.

这么说就很简单了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

Okay.

好的。

You interestingly have worked in a lot of different places.

有趣的是，您曾在很多不同的地方工作过。

I want to spend a little time here.

我想在这里度过一点时间。

So you've worked in Europe, you've worked in Asia, you worked in the US obviously.

所以你在欧洲工作过，你在亚洲工作过，显然你也在美国工作过。

For someone that is maybe thinking about moving out of the US or maybe moving to the US, what have you found are the big trade-offs?

对于可能正在考虑搬出美国或搬到美国的人来说，您发现最大的权衡是什么？

Mayur Kamat: Yeah, so I would say early career you want to be in intensely talents dense areas for all the reasons that we mentioned before.

Mayur Kamat：是的，所以我想说，出于我们之前提到的所有原因，您希望在职业生涯早期进入人才密集的领域。

Finding the high growth companies, finding the networks that will make you successful.

寻找高增长的公司，寻找能让您成功的网络。

For general tech, there's no better place than West coast of the US.

对于通用技术来说，没有比美国西海岸更好的地方了。

Everybody doesn't have the option, especially now with the immigration policies and so forth.

每个人都没有选择，尤其是现在有移民政策等等。

I mean things were always hard.

我的意思是事情总是很困难。

They seem extremely harder now.

他们现在看起来非常困难。

So you may not have that option, but if you do have that option, I would encourage everyone, there's no better place than West Coast to start your career.

所以你可能没有这个选择，但如果你有这个选择，我会鼓励大家，没有比西海岸更好的地方来开始你的职业生涯了。

There's some exceptions, like for crypto, I would say Dubai is very strong, very great, has a really high density there.

有一些例外，比如加密货币，我想说迪拜非常强大，非常伟大，那里的密度非常高。

But again, it's a very industry specific.

但同样，这是一个非常特定于行业的行业。

Bangalore, if you're Indian, has managed to recreate some of the magic of Silicon Valley, not at the same scale, but getting better.

如果你是印度人，班加罗尔已经成功地重现了硅谷的一些魔力，虽然规模不同，但变得更好。

If you're in finance, maybe there is London, Singapore, and Asia has now at least not as much new innovation, but each of the big companies has a presence there.

如果你从事金融业，也许伦敦、新加坡和亚洲现在至少没有那么多新的创新，但每家大公司都在那里开展业务。

Mayur Kamat: So at least secondary talent densities there, those would be our options if US is not available early in your career.

Mayur Kamat：因此，如果美国在您职业生涯的早期无法提供，那么至少那里有中等人才密度，这些将是我们的选择。

And in some ways it helps define you, right?

在某些方面它有助于定义你，对吧？

If you work at Microsoft or Google or OpenAI or some of these companies that become brands later, it's something you can take with you when going...

如果你在微软、谷歌、OpenAI 或其中一些后来成为品牌的公司工作，那么你可以带着它去...

The second part of your question is if you decide to move, having that experience and that brand and that kind of achievements there can help you find great opportunities elsewhere.

你问题的第二部分是，如果你决定搬家，那里的经验、品牌和成就可以帮助你在其他地方找到很好的机会。

I mean, I've been a little bit privileged that some of these opportunities I found me like N26 here in Europe or Binance before in Asia where I wasn't really in that super talent dense area in the first place.

我的意思是，我感到有点荣幸，因为我在欧洲找到了一些机会，比如欧洲的 N26 或之前在亚洲的币安，而我一开始并不是真正处于人才密集的地区。

But luck's not a great strategy.

但运气并不是一个好的策略。

So if you're planning for it, I would say build your early career in the US.

因此，如果您正在为此做计划，我建议您在美国建立您的早期职业生涯。

Honestly, when we moved to Thailand 2018, at that point, I didn't think I was making a great professional decision.

老实说，当我们 2018 年搬到泰国时，我认为我并没有做出一个伟大的职业决定。

Mayur Kamat: We were just struggling in the US with both me and my wife working.

Mayur Kamat：我们在美国挣扎，我和我的妻子都在工作。

Both our kids in Seattle were tiny.

我们在西雅图的两个孩子都很小。

My daughter had asthma at that time and she was just constantly sick.

我女儿当时患有哮喘，而且一直生病。

And it was a struggle for us to kind of manage both work and life.

管理工作和生活对我们来说是一场斗争。

And when I talked to Agoda, I had never heard of the company and the only reason I ended up taking the job was like, hey, Bangkok's a hot place.

当我与 Agoda 交谈时，我从未听说过这家公司，而我最终接受这份工作的唯一原因是，嘿，曼谷是一个热门的地方。

My daughter might not have asthma there and we might have some help in the house.

我女儿在那里可能没有哮喘，我们可能会在家里得到一些帮助。

So we could probably balance some of the things that are really not adding value to our life right now.

因此，我们或许可以平衡一些目前确实无法为我们的生活增加价值的事情。

And that was the hypothesis there that I can do a lot more on work because I was literally not able to focus as much on it, everything else that was happening.

这就是假设，我可以在工作上做更多的事情，因为我实际上无法专注于工作以及正在发生的其他事情。

And as I said, everything on an experimentation that we just hit a home run on all the hypothesis.

正如我所说，我们在所有假设上都打出了全垒打的实验。

My daughter, the heat cured her asthma.

我女儿，高温治愈了她的哮喘。

Mayur Kamat: Just having a support structure allowed us just as a family to spend a lot more time with each other and allowed me a lot more time to work and be on my career when I'm not doing dishes and not doing laundry and not throwing out the trash and not mowing the lawn.

Mayur Kamat：有了一个支持结构，我们就像一个家庭一样，可以有更多的时间彼此相处，也让我有更多的时间工作和从事我的职业生涯，当我不洗碗、不洗衣服、不扔垃圾、不修剪草坪时。

There's just so much hours that show up in the day that you could be doing things that you're great at and add to your career.

一天中有很多时间，你可以做自己擅长的事情，为你的职业生涯增添光彩。

And then Agoda just turned out to be almost like a bootcamp for understanding how an experimentation based product culture might work.

然后，事实证明 Agoda 几乎就像一个训练营，旨在帮助您了解基于实验的产品文化如何运作。

Because before that I worked at Google, I worked at startups.

因为在此之前我在谷歌工作过，我在初创公司工作过。

My claim to fame was building big stuff and Agoda just taught me a lot of the growth comes with incredibly small things done faster.

我之所以成名是因为建造了大东西，而 Agoda 教会了我很多成长是通过更快地完成令人难以置信的小事情来实现的。

So it's part of Booking Holdings.

所以它是Booking Holdings 的一部分。

So if you heard of Booking.com, it's a $170 billion company.

因此，如果您听说过 Booking.com，那它是一家价值 1,700 亿美元的公司。

And what's interesting is that 10 years ago it was a $10 billion company which sold flights, hotels, and cars.

有趣的是，10 年前，它还是一家价值 100 亿美元的公司，销售航班、酒店和汽车。

10 years later it still sells flights, hotels, and cars, it's a $ 170 billion company.

10 年后，它仍然销售航班、酒店和汽车，这是一家价值 1700 亿美元的公司。

Mayur Kamat: It's an incredible growth story.

Mayur Kamat：这是一个令人难以置信的成长故事。

And that tells you you really don't need from a strategy perspective to do something completely different if you can truly compound your growth by optimizing every single thing really, really well.

这告诉你，如果你能够通过非常非常好的优化每件事来真正实现复合增长，那么从战略角度来看，你真的不需要做一些完全不同的事情。

So there are the pros that come with, as I said, when you move, most of the time you're building products that are global, especially if you're based in the US.

因此，正如我所说，当你搬家时，大多数时候你正在构建全球性的产品，特别是如果你的总部设在美国的话，就会有一些优点。

Very few times you're building product that just work in the US.

很少有时候你会开发只在美国可用的产品。

Now, that's not true for a lot of the countries.

现在，对于许多国家来说情况并非如此。

Like in India, a lot of products are only designed for Indian market, a lot of products in China only designed for Chinese market, but from the US you're designing product for the world and a lot of the times you don't experience the same constraints or you don't empathize with the user at the same level because you just haven't lived that user's life.

就像在印度，很多产品只是为印度市场设计的，在中国有很多产品只是为中国市场设计的，但在美国，你是为世界设计产品，很多时候你不会遇到同样的限制，或者你不会在同一水平上同情用户，因为你只是没有经历过用户的生活。

Mayur Kamat: So in terms of just being able to calibrate yourself on what a global product might look like, being able to live in different places and understanding some of these constraints first hand, definitely a pro.

Mayur Kamat：因此，就能够根据全球产品的外观来校准自己、能够生活在不同的地方并直接了解其中一些限制而言，绝对是专业人士。

As I said, especially if you have built that early reputation, you get to work at some of the best companies when you go abroad.

正如我所说，特别是如果您已经建立了早期的声誉，当您出国时，您可以在一些最好的公司工作。

And so there's a hit to compensation, at least initially for sure.

因此，薪酬会受到影响，至少在最初是肯定的。

Nobody pays anywhere close, especially here in Europe.

没有人支付任何接近的费用，尤其是在欧洲。

But as I said before, don't optimize for compensation early in your career or even middle part of your career.

但正如我之前所说，不要在职业生涯的早期甚至职业生涯的中期优化薪酬。

So if you follow that advice, it'll not matter because you will have kind of something unique to offer.

因此，如果您遵循该建议，那么这并不重要，因为您将提供一些独特的东西。

Even if you come back to the US later having worked in different...

即使您后来回到美国并在不同的地方工作过...

Having understanding, especially if you're in FinTech where the actual laws are different in different countries and that one you truly do not appreciate working in the US.

有了解，特别是如果你从事金融科技行业，不同国家的实际法律是不同的，而且你真的不喜欢在美国工作。

Even at Google and stuff, when we would launch products, I would be like, oh, the lawyers, they're just making life difficult.

即使在谷歌之类的公司，当我们推出产品时，我也会说，哦，律师，他们只是让生活变得困难。

Mayur Kamat: But the many of now have a true appreciation of how different the world truly is.

马尤尔·卡马特：但现在许多人真正意识到世界到底有多么不同。

It just makes you a better stakeholder when you talk to the legal team, when you talk to compliance team, when you talk to marketing.

当您与法律团队、合规团队、营销团队交谈时，它只会让您成为更好的利益相关者。

So I think those are all the pros.

所以我认为这些都是优点。

The compensation could be the con.

补偿可能是骗局。

The other big con is that today, if you're in Silicon Valley, I spent 15 years in Seattle, I worked at four companies, I could change jobs and stay in Seattle because there's enough companies there.

另一个大骗局是，今天，如果你在硅谷，我在西雅图呆了 15 年，我在四家公司工作过，我可以换工作并留在西雅图，因为那里有足够的公司。

You're not going to run a ceiling at some point, in Bay Area, there's no ceiling, right?

你不会在某个时候达到上限，在湾区，没有上限，对吧？

You can keep growing.

你可以不断成长。

The challenge now is that if I'm in Bangkok and I'm working at Agoda, at some point I need to find a new job or because let's say I'm at the CPO level, I want to be CEO now.

现在的挑战是，如果我在曼谷并且在 Agoda 工作，在某个时候我需要找到一份新工作，或者因为假设我处于 CPO 级别，所以我现在想成为首席执行官。

Agoda already has a CEO, so I need to find, be a CEO somewhere else.

agoda 已经有了一位首席执行官，所以我需要在其他地方寻找首席执行官。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

That company is not going to be in Bangkok.

那家公司不会在曼谷。

Now I have to move and move my whole family to Singapore, which I did.

现在我必须全家搬到新加坡，我也这么做了。

Then you hit somewhere over there or then you hit another ceiling, now you need to move back or go somewhere else with Thailand, which I did.

然后你撞到了那边的某个地方，或者然后你撞到了另一个天花板，现在你需要搬回来或去泰国的其他地方，我就是这么做的。

And then you're like, oh, maybe there's a great opportunity in Europe which would give you a whole different scale.

然后你就会想，哦，也许欧洲有一个很好的机会，可以给你一个完全不同的规模。

Then you need to move to Spain, which I did.

然后你需要搬到西班牙，我就是这么做的。

So at some point your family's like, what's happening?

所以有时候你的家人会问，发生了什么事？

It turned out to be what turned out to be one step to go from A to B is now just a every year journey.

原来从 A 到 B 的一步现在变成了每年一次的旅程。

Mayur Kamat: So that's something to calibrate, especially later in your career that it's extremely hard if you like the job and don't like the location or vice versa, 'cause they usually come as a package deal now.

Mayur Kamat：所以这是需要校准的事情，尤其是在你职业生涯的后期，如果你喜欢这份工作但不喜欢这个地点，那就非常困难，反之亦然，因为它们现在通常是一揽子交易。

We see this in Bangkok now where there's not that many great tech companies, and if you're at Agoda and you're doing really well, but it's just one company, you just don't have options.

我们现在在曼谷看到了这一点，那里没有那么多伟大的科技公司，如果你在 Agoda 并且做得很好，但它只是一家公司，你就没有选择。

And especially if you love Bangkok, which is a great city, probably my vote for the best place to live in the world, that's a struggle.

尤其是如果你喜欢曼谷，这是一个伟大的城市，可能是我投票选出的世界上最适宜居住的城市，那就是一场斗争。

You love the city, but if you need to move your career ahead, you need to go somewhere else.

你热爱这座城市，但如果你需要推进你的职业生涯，你需要去其他地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

I feel like Thailand is very popular right now with White Lotus.I think White Lotus had the most views of any show or some crazy...

我觉得泰国现在很流行白莲花。我认为白莲花是所有节目或一些疯狂节目中观看次数最多的......

It was very popular.

它非常受欢迎。

I feel like there's a lot of tourism coming to Thailand more than they've had.

我觉得来泰国旅游的人比以前多了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I want to come back to one piece of advice that we were chatting about before we started recording that I think might be helpful to people, which is, and this is kind in a different direction, but I want to make sure we touch on it, is Shreyas Doshi's point about leverage.

我想回到我们开始录制之前讨论的一条建议，我认为这可能对人们有帮助，这是一个不同的方向，但我想确保我们触及它，这是 Shreyas Doshi 关于杠杆的观点。

I know this is something that you think a lot about.

我知道这是您经常思考的事情。

He has this really good advice and we'll point to the episode if people want to dig deeper around finding the highest leverage opportunities for you to work on as a PM.

他有这个非常好的建议，如果人们想更深入地挖掘你作为产品经理的最高杠杆机会，我们会指出这一集。

Can you just share that advice for folks that haven't heard this before?

您能否向以前没有听说过这一点的人们分享一下这个建议？

Mayur Kamat: This is true for no matter what level of career you are in, but you have a finite amount of time and largely you have more problems than you have time to solve them.

Mayur Kamat：无论您处于哪个职业级别，都是如此，但您的时间是有限的，而且很大程度上您遇到的问题多于您有时间解决的问题。

The question is which ones you work on.

问题是你从事哪些工作。

And this becomes even harder, let's say you're a CPO now because all of them are important, otherwise they will not come to you in the first place.

这变得更加困难，假设你现在是一名 CPO，因为所有这些都很重要，否则他们一开始就不会来找你。

The question is, which one do you work on?

问题是，你从事哪一项工作？

And the principle is simple.

而且原理很简单。

You work on problems that have a 10X positive or a negative impact.

您所解决的问题具有 10 倍的积极或消极影响。

I mean the number can be 10, 5, 300, depending on finance it would be a hundred, some companies might be three.

我的意思是这个数字可以是 10、5、300，根据财务情况，可能是 100，有些公司可能是 3。

And in most FinTech companies one of two problems, it's a growth problem or a compliance problem because both of them can have a negative or positive 10X impact and that's what you focus on.

在大多数金融科技公司中，存在两个问题之一：增长问题或合规问题，因为这两者都可能产生 10 倍的负面或正面影响，而这正是您所关注的。

That's what you spend bulk of your time.

这就是你花费大部分时间的事情。

What was interesting for me, my first executive roles, that was Google, I was a product manager.

对我来说有趣的是，我的第一个高管角色是谷歌，我是一名产品经理。

Mayur Kamat: I joined what was White Pages back then as a VP of product.

Mayur Kamat：我当时加入了 White Pages，担任产品副总裁。

I was my first kind of...

我是我的第一种...

And White Pages, Alex Allgood, Seattle, founding legend, three companies, all unicorns now.

还有White Pages、亚历克斯·奥尔古德（Alex Allgood），西雅图的创始传奇人物，三家公司，现在都是独角兽。

Incredible, very good personal friend and mentor.

令人难以置信的、非常好的私人朋友和导师。

What was truly interesting when I joined it, they're like, "Okay, this is your desk, this is the product area.

当我加入时，真正有趣的是，他们会说，“好吧，这是你的办公桌，这是产品区域。

So we had two offices, this is when everybody worked in office five days a week." And I'm like, "Okay, where does Alex sit?" And he's like, "Oh, he's sitting with accounting." And I'm like, I didn't think about it because I thought his office is near accounting.

所以我们有两个办公室，当时每个人每周在办公室工作五天。”我想，“好吧，亚历克斯坐在哪里？”他说，“哦，他正在做会计。”我想，我没有考虑这一点，因为我认为他的办公室靠近会计。

Then I find out he doesn't have office, he has a floating desk.

然后我发现他没有办公室，他有一张浮动办公桌。

So all the other desks were fixed, but he had a movable desk and he would move his desk to one of the departments, which I think had the highest leverage opportunity.

因此，所有其他办公桌都是固定的，但他有一张可移动的办公桌，他会将办公桌移至其中一个部门，我认为该部门具有最高的杠杆机会。

And he would sit there at that desk when that department till that either problem was solved or the opportunity was realized, and then he would literally move his desk and then go to product or tech or finance.

当那个部门的时候，他会坐在那个办公桌前，直到问题得到解决或机会被实现，然后他会真正移动他的办公桌，然后转到产品、技术或财务。

Mayur Kamat: And that was his way of...

Mayur Kamat：这就是他的方式......

You could literally visualize him working on the highest leverage problem by his desk moving.

你可以通过他的办公桌移动来想象他正在解决最高杠杆问题。

And then that combines that with what we talked before about details and a little bit, I think I didn't mention it about the humility that you need to have to be working in the detail.

然后将其与我们之前讨论的细节结合起来，我想我没有提到你需要在细节上工作的谦逊。

A lot of the times, especially later in your career, you're like, hey, this is beyond me.

很多时候，尤其是在你职业生涯的后期，你会想，嘿，这超出了我的能力范围。

This is below me.

这是我下面的。

Why do I need to do that?

为什么我需要这样做？

I have so many PMs or data analysts or somebody should do it.

我有很多产品经理或数据分析师，或者应该有人来做这件事。

Why would I do it?

我为什么要这么做？

And that was kind of again, just a quick story there.

又是这样，只是一个简短的故事。

I remember we were trying to figure out our growth channels and we found out that, hey, we are kind of really tapping out on paid, on social, on referrals, but SEO was something we just hadn't worked on for a while.

我记得我们试图找出我们的增长渠道，然后我们发现，嘿，我们确实在付费、社交、推荐方面有所投入，但搜索引擎优化是我们有一段时间没有做的事情了。

We're building a caller ID app and what we wanted to do was when somebody types a phone number in Google, we want to be the first link to say, hey, is this a spam call or not?

我们正在构建一个来电显示应用程序，我们想要做的是，当有人在 Google 中输入电话号码时，我们希望成为第一个链接说，嘿，这是否是垃圾电话？

Mayur Kamat: Or whose number it is.

Mayur Kamat： 或者是谁的号码。

And if we could then we could get them to download our app.

如果可以的话，我们就可以让他们下载我们的应用程序。

That was the hypothesis.

这就是假设。

So I present at the executive team meeting to Alex, like, "Hey, I have a team.

所以我在执行团队会议上向亚历克斯展示，“嘿，我有一个团队。

I want to hire a product manager focused purely on SEO and because I think that's one of our highest leverage areas right now." And Alex is like, "Hey, the whole White Pages, I built based on SEO.

我想聘请一位纯粹专注于 SEO 的产品经理，因为我认为这是我们目前影响力最大的领域之一。”亚历克斯就像，“嘿，整个白页，我基于搜索引擎优化构建的。

People who type people's name and the first thing used to be a White Pages link.

人们输入姓名后，首先想到的就是白页链接。

I'm one of the best people in the world to work on SEO." I'm like, "Yeah.

我是世界上最擅长 SEO 的人之一。”我想，“是啊。

So?" He's like, "Let me run this product." I'm like, "Okay, what do you mean?" He's like, "No, no, I will be the product manager for this for however long you need it." I'm like, "How's ?"

那么？”他说，“让我来运行这个产品。”我说：“好吧，你什么意思？”他说，“不，不，无论你需要多久，我都会担任这个产品经理。”我说，“怎么样？”

Mayur Kamat: "They don't worry about it.

马尤尔·卡马特：“他们不担心这个。

Just tell me about the engineers." So again, he moved his desk to where that product team sat, and for the next three months he was the product manager on that scrum.

告诉我关于工程师的事吧。”于是，他再次将自己的办公桌搬到了产品团队所在的位置，并在接下来的三个月里担任该 scrum 的产品经理。

So he would come to my product team meetings, give us update on what's happening with the SEO scrum, and then an hour later I would be in the leadership meeting giving my update to him, and truly he was operating it saying, this is high leverage area for the company, high leverage for my yards.

所以他会来参加我的产品团队会议，向我们介绍 SEO scrum 的最新情况，然后一个小时后，我会在领导层会议上向他提供最新情况，他实际上是在说，这是公司的高杠杆领域，对我的船厂来说是高杠杆。

It should be high leverage for me.

这对我来说应该是高杠杆。

I'm the best person to do it.

我是最适合做这件事的人。

I'm going to be in the details and do it.

我将深入细节并做到这一点。

CZ, same at Binance, there were a lot of products that he would just sit on himself.

CZ，在币安也是如此，有很多产品都是他自己坐上去的。

There were very few people at Binance who would say no to CZ, but one of my lead PMs who worked on the products that CZ worked on, he would tell them no all the time.

在币安，很少有人会对 CZ 说不，但我的一位负责 CZ 开发产品的首席产品经理，他总是对他们说不。

Mayur Kamat: They would just baffle all the other executives, how is he saying no to CZ and none of us are doing it?

Mayur Kamat：他们只会让所有其他高管感到困惑，他怎么能对 CZ 说不，而我们却没有人这么做呢？

Hey, that was his product area that CZ was working on, and there was that mutual respect there that, hey, we know this thing and he is going to say no to me because probably not a good idea.

嘿，那是 CZ 正在研究的产品领域，那里有相互尊重，嘿，我们知道这件事，他会拒绝我，因为可能不是一个好主意。

So that humility and attention to detail is required to work on the high leverage problems.

因此，解决高杠杆问题需要谦虚和注重细节。

A lot of the high leverage problems are not, as I said, not strategy decisions.

正如我所说，许多高杠杆问题并不是战略决策。

They're not language markets to go after and stuff.

它们不是值得追逐的语言市场。

A lot of them are like, why is this thing not working as well as it needs to be?

很多人会问，为什么这个东西没有达到应有的效果？

And a lot of time the devil is in the details and you need to be over there.

很多时候，问题在于细节，你需要亲临现场。

I think combining that, knowing what is high leverage or not, and two, both having the humility and the patience to be able to go dig deeper and solve that.

我认为将这一点结合起来，知道什么是高杠杆或什么不是高杠杆，第二，双方都具有谦虚和耐心，能够更深入地挖掘并解决这个问题。

Mayur Kamat: Some of them are quick ones.

Mayur Kamat：其中一些速度很快。

Like if I'm looking today at, let's say how many of our signed up users convert into a long-term monthly daily active user, that could be something I focus on for a month.

就像我今天看到的那样，假设我们有多少注册用户转化为长期的每月每日活跃用户，这可能是我一个月关注的事情。

Because we're running a lot of experiments on early onboarding screens, early rewards, early incentives, early loyalty program, and at some point it might be like, oh, the team's got it.

因为我们在早期入职屏幕、早期奖励、早期激励、早期忠诚度计划等方面进行了大量实验，在某些时候，可能会觉得，哦，团队已经做到了。

I've given all my...

我已经付出了我的全部...

What I could do there.

我在那里能做什么。

It's functioning.

它正在运作。

We have great PMs.

我们有很棒的产品经理。

I trust their execution on this.

我相信他们在这方面的执行力。

Let me just go focus on some of the compliance challenges that we have or fraud issues that we have in France.

让我重点谈谈我们在法国面临的一些合规挑战或欺诈问题。

Mayur Kamat: Those kind of being able to kind of...

Mayur Kamat：那种能够……

The only way that works for me is I keep a very three calendar because you cannot do this without that.

对我来说唯一有效的方法是我保留三个日历，因为没有它你就无法做到这一点。

If you have hundreds of meetings, hundreds of one-on-ones daily standards, a lot of recurring meetings, you just can't find time to go work on high leverage problems.

如果你有数百个会议、数百个一对一的日常标准、大量的重复会议，你就找不到时间去解决高杠杆问题。

So that would be my kind of other stuff is you should have plenty of open spaces on your calendar.

所以这就是我的其他想法，你的日历上应该有足够的空闲空间。

A full calendar is a badge of shame, not a badge of honor.

完整的日历是耻辱的徽章，而不是荣誉的徽章。

Lenny Rachitsky: These are awesome stories.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这些都是很棒的故事。

Just the metaphor of the moving desk is so good.

光是移动办公桌这个比喻就太好了。

That's the epitome of a...

这就是一个缩影...

Like what you're describing is what people now call founder mode, where the founder just goes in the details working on the problem.

就像你所描述的那样，人们现在称之为创始人模式，创始人只是深入研究解决问题的细节。

Brian Chesky actually did this at Airbnb while I was there.

事实上，当我在 Airbnb 时，布莱恩·切斯基 (Brian Chesky) 就这么做了。

He took on a new product and was like mini CEO, essentially.

他推出了一款新产品，本质上就像迷你首席执行官。

I don't know if he'd called himself the product manager 'cause I don't think he loved product managers.

我不知道他是否称自己为产品经理，因为我认为他不喜欢产品经理。

He kind of famously got rid of product managers, which he didn't actually...

他以解雇产品经理而闻名，但他实际上并没有……

But yeah, he did that very much and he sat with the team, kind of created a whole space for the team that he was in.

但是，是的，他确实这么做了，他和球队坐在一起，为他所在的球队创造了一个完整的空间。

These are awesome stories and really good example of a founder using their power to unblock and finding the highest leverage opportunities.

这些都是很棒的故事，也是创始人利用自己的权力来解锁并找到最高杠杆机会的很好的例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: To kind of start to close off our conversation, I'm going to take you to a couple recurring themes on this podcast, recurring segments on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束我们的对话，我将带您了解这个播客上的几个重复出现的主题，以及这个播客上重复出现的片段。

First, we're going to visit AI Corner and in AI Corner I ask, what's a way that you have found to use AI in AI tool, a bunch of AI tools in your work to work more efficiently to work to create better quality work?

首先，我们将参观人工智能角，在人工智能角我问，你发现了一种在人工智能工具中使用人工智能的方法，在你的工作中使用一堆人工智能工具来更有效地工作，创造出更好质量的工作？

Mayur Kamat: I still haven't found a game changer for me personally.

Mayur Kamat：我个人还没有找到改变游戏规则的因素。

Something that I use right now and I'm a little bit not-

我现在用的东西，但我有点不-

Mayur Kamat: He was like, now I am a little bit not sure that am I not doing something right, what the other people are, or I'm a little bit too jaded for it.

Mayur Kamat：他说，现在我有点不确定我是否做错了什么，其他人是什么，或者我对此有点厌倦了。

Mayur Kamat: So we have Gemini across the work.

Mayur Kamat：所以我们有 Gemini 参与工作。

So for meeting notes and stuff, works great, especially for folks who don't make it.

因此，对于会议记录和其他东西来说，效果很好，特别是对于那些没有成功的人。

We use a tool called Writer for our copywriting and UX teams, especially because we are operating in Europe across several languages.

我们为文案和用户体验团队使用名为 Writer 的工具，特别是因为我们在欧洲跨多种语言开展业务。

So being able to generate that very quickly, especially for illustrations and in-app messages and stuff that's been a, several tools now.

因此能够非常快速地生成它，特别是对于插图和应用内消息以及现在已经成为多种工具的东西。

But Writer just has, the copywriting market is really well done over there.

但 Writer 就是，那边的文案市场确实做得很好。

Mayur Kamat: If you ask me across N26.

Mayur Kamat：如果你穿过 N26 来问我。

But even when we did this at Binance or at Agoda, there are three areas where AI is complete game changer.

但即使我们在币安或 Agoda 做到了这一点，人工智能仍然在三个领域彻底改变了游戏规则。

One is on coding.

一是关于编码。

Again, you can use whatever latest tool for prototyping or not most value, especially for the companies I have worked at, which are fairly large companies, very large code bases.

同样，您可以使用任何最新的原型工具或不是最有价值的工具，特别是对于我工作过的公司，这些公司是相当大的公司，非常大的代码库。

Mayur Kamat: Having some sort of co-pilot that's integrated with your repositories.

Mayur Kamat：拥有某种与您的存储库集成的副驾驶。

Rough data, maybe somewhere between 18 to 25% productivity boost for a developer, which is fairly massive, right?

粗略数据显示，对于开发人员来说，生产力可能会提高 18% 到 25%，这是相当大的，对吧？

So that's one category, game changer.

这是一类，游戏规则改变者。

Customer support, game changer.

客户支持，游戏规则改变者。

Whether we should do it at scale or not, that's a different kind of more ethical/human question to ask there.

无论我们是否应该大规模这样做，这是一个不同类型的更道德/人性的问题。

But for solving the bottom 70 percentile problems, "Why is my card declined?

但为了解决排名最低 70% 的问题，“为什么我的卡被拒绝了？

Why is there a hold on my account?

为什么我的账户被冻结？

What happened to the replacement card I shipped?

我寄来的替换卡怎么了？

Why is it not arrived?" Basic questions, AI automating now almost 60, 70% of that.

怎么还没到？”基本问题，人工智能现在自动化了近 60%、70%。

Customers getting that real feedback.

客户得到真实的反馈。

Game changer.

游戏规则改变者。

Mayur Kamat: And the last one is just on fraud and being able to just understand patterns better on real customers versus not.

Mayur Kamat：最后一项是关于欺诈，以及能够更好地理解真实客户的模式。

At Binance, we had this product where users could exchange crypto with each other.

在币安，我们有这个产品，用户可以互相交换加密货币。

I could pay you Bitcoin and get Thai bath in return, huge amount of fraud.

我可以向你支付比特币并获得泰浴作为回报，这是巨额欺诈。

Mayur Kamat: And they're using AI just to understand language patterns of fraudsters versus not fraudsters.

Mayur Kamat：他们使用人工智能只是为了了解欺诈者与非欺诈者的语言模式。

Massive.

大量的。

So again, as a company level, there is an incredible set of advancements across these three areas: developer productivity, customer support, and fraud.

同样，从公司层面来看，这三个领域取得了令人难以置信的进步：开发人员生产力、客户支持和欺诈。

But for me personally, I'm like, what would I use that suddenly makes me a better CPO?

但就我个人而言，我会想，我会使用什么来突然让我成为更好的 CPO？

I'm still struggling a little bit over there, but I don't think we need something at that level because largely what still remains the domain of humans is decision making and taking the brunt of the impact of what decisions you make because I would love to blame AI for some of my bad decisions.

我仍然在那里挣扎，但我认为我们不需要那个级别的东西，因为很大程度上仍然是人类的领域是决策，并首当其冲地受到你所做决策的影响，因为我很乐意将我的一些错误决策归咎于人工智能。

That's not why .

这不是原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can still do that.

Lenny Rachitsky：你仍然可以这样做。

You can still do that even if it's not.

即使不是，你仍然可以这样做。

Mayur Kamat: Yes, yes.

马尤尔·卡马特：是的，是的。

But again, hopeful to, generally not a big fan of ...

但同样，希望，通常不是......的忠实粉丝

The thing I call a little bit jaded.

我称之为有点厌倦的东西。

You have tools now that you write few things and they make a long essay for it.

现在你有了一些工具，你只需要写一些东西，他们就可以写一篇很长的文章。

And then you have tools that compress long essays into few words.

然后你就有了将长篇文章压缩成几个单词的工具。

You could have just said few words in the first place and save the whole round trip.

您本来可以一开始就说几句话，从而节省整个往返行程。

It's like a reverse zip.

就像反向拉链一样。

I remember when we had zip and it was a game changer, but there was a big file you needed to send over a slow network, so you compressed it and sent it and then expanded it.

我记得当我们有了 zip 时，它改变了游戏规则，但是您需要通过慢速网络发送一个大文件，因此您压缩它并发送它，然后扩展它。

We're doing the reverse now.

我们现在正在做相反的事情。

We have a small thing, we make it big and then send it over and somebody's making it small.

我们有一个小东西，我们把它做得很大，然后把它寄过去，然后有人把它做得很小。

But on these three areas, if you're at all skilled companies, if you don't have a great tool for developing productivity, you're not looking at essential basic LLM bots for deflecting customer service and you're not looking at patterns on user transactions or user communications or detect fraud, that's the first area I would focus on.

但在这三个领域，如果你在所有技术精湛的公司，如果你没有一个强大的工具来提高生产力，你就不会考虑用于转移客户服务的基本 LLM 机器人，也不会考虑用户交易或用户通信的模式或检测欺诈，这是我要关注的第一个领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to take us to another recurring segment on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我要带我们看播客上的另一个重复片段。

It's called Fail Corner.

它被称为“失败角”。

And the idea here is folks like you come on this podcast, there's all these wins, killing it, CPO, this and that, and just moving into Thailand, it worked out incredibly, what a win all the time.

这里的想法是像你们这样的人来到这个播客，有所有这些胜利，杀死它，CPO，这个那个，刚刚搬到泰国，它的效果令人难以置信，一直都是一个胜利。

In reality, that's not how things go.

事实上，事情并非如此。

So the question to you here is just what's the story of a failure in your career when things didn't go well and it was a big deal for you, and then what you learned from that experience, how that actually impacted you?

所以这里问你的问题是，当事情进展不顺利时，你的职业生涯失败的故事是什么，这对你来说是一件大事，然后你从这次经历中学到了什么，这实际上对你产生了怎样的影响？

Mayur Kamat: Yeah, so from the product side, my probably most spectacular failure was I was the first PM on Hangouts.

Mayur Kamat：是的，所以从产品方面来看，我最引人注目的失败可能是我是环聊的第一位产品经理。

And if you ask Nikhil, he'll probably say he was my boss then.

如果你问尼基尔，他可能会说他当时是我的老板。

It was an effort the size I've never seen before or after in my career.

这是我职业生涯之前或之后从未见过的规模。

We had thousands of people working for me.

我们有成千上万的人为我工作。

We had entire power of Google.

我们拥有谷歌的全部力量。

We had Larry literally sitting with us saying we can do anything we want Chrome to do.

Larry 坐在我们旁边说我们可以做任何我们想让 Chrome 做的事情。

And we still didn't manage to build a great messaging product.

我们仍然没有成功构建出出色的消息传递产品。

Mayur Kamat: So when I look at pure product-sense, product decision-making was, there's several reasons now I'd had luxury of 15 years to analyze that on solving for the wrong audience, solving for the wrong DNA of the company.

Mayur Kamat：所以，当我考虑纯粹的产品意识时，产品决策有几个原因，现在我有 15 年的时间来分析，解决错误的受众问题，解决公司错误的 DNA 问题。

I have this premise that certain companies can never succeed at certain type of products like Microsoft with mobile or Google with social or Facebook with enterprise, it is just the DNA of the founder actively acts against you succeeding there.

我有一个前提，即某些公司永远无法在某些类型的产品上取得成功，例如微软的移动产品、谷歌的社交产品或 Facebook 的企业产品，这只是创始人的 DNA 积极阻碍你在这些产品上取得成功。

Mayur Kamat: I would've said Google with enterprise as well.

Mayur Kamat：我也会说 Google 也适用于企业。

But then Sundar came and Larry was no longer the CEO and that's when the enterprise took off.

但后来桑达尔来了，拉里不再担任首席执行官，这就是企业腾飞的时候。

They literally had to change the CEO to win in certain segments, but more, and then again, I worked in Nagoda during COVID, so travel company during COVID, Binance during its probably most tumultuous area of compliance and government scrutiny.

他们实际上必须更换首席执行官才能在某些领域获胜，但更重要的是，我在新冠疫情期间在纳戈达工作，所以在新冠疫情期间我在旅游公司工作，币安在合规和政府审查可能最混乱的领域工作。

There's a lot of missteps there around externalities.

在外部性方面存在很多失误。

I think one of the main kind of learnings from that is just don't take on projects that are going to be six months, a year, because you just generally don't have control over the macro.

我认为从中学到的一个主要教训就是不要承担为期六个月或一年的项目，因为你通常无法控制宏观。

Things just move way more faster.

事情进展得更快。

And that's probably cemented my kind of now product philosophy of just doing small things very quickly, spending most of the times doing that.

这可能巩固了我现在的产品理念，即快速做小事情，大部分时间都花在这上面。

You still launch big products, but even over there we try and get early signals as soon as possible.

您仍然会推出大型产品，但即使在那里，我们也会尽力尽快获得早期信号。

But because in Nagoda, like one of the big projects we launched was we wanted to control the payments infrastructure for all the hotels and we thought if we had that device in the hotel's desk, so not only for bookings made online, but for everything that happens at the hotel, if we control that infrastructure, not only would we make money, but we had a touch point with the users that went beyond booking the travel.

但因为在纳戈达，就像我们启动的大型项目之一一样，我们想要控制所有酒店的支付基础设施，我们认为如果我们在酒店的办公桌上安装该设备，那么不仅对于在线预订，而且对于酒店发生的一切，如果我们控制该基础设施，我们不仅会赚钱，而且我们与用户的接触点超出了预订旅行的范围。

Mayur Kamat: Travel as you know, is not a high frequency activity.

Mayur Kamat：正如您所知，旅行并不是一项高频活动。

You book once, then you book six months later and most of the time people would not come to Nagoda, they would just go to Google and go to some other website.

你预订一次，然后六个月后你再预订，大多数时候人们不会来纳戈达，他们只会去谷歌和其他一些网站。

So we wanted that touch point that stayed with them and thought payments would be a great avenue to do that because that's something you do every day.

因此，我们希望这个接触点能够留在他们身边，并认为付款将是实现这一目标的一个很好的途径，因为这是你每天都会做的事情。

And again, we did it in the Nagoda style.

我们再次以纳戈达风格进行。

Mayur Kamat: So we did an experiment.

Mayur Kamat：所以我们做了一个实验。

We started very small and literally went to the mall and bought these $50 Android devices where we ran our software that people could just scan the credit card by a camera and charge it.

我们一开始规模很小，后来去了商场购买了这些 50 美元的 Android 设备，我们运行我们的软件，人们可以通过相机扫描信用卡并为其充电。

It was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

We had thousands of hotels use it.

我们有数千家酒店使用它。

And then COVID hits and then there's literally nobody going to hotels anymore.

然后新冠疫情来袭，几乎没有人再去酒店了。

But it took us like six, nine months because of the licenses, and so to launch it.

但由于许可证的原因，我们花了六、九个月的时间才推出它。

And in hindsight probably, I mean you couldn't have thought about COVID with that sense, but still the amount of time it took to launch the product was something we could have done better.

事后看来，我的意思是你不可能从这种意义上考虑新冠病毒，但推出产品所花费的时间仍然是我们可以做得更好的事情。

So learnings for most of it is don't take too long to launch, don't take too long to validate your hypothesis.

因此，大部分的学习是不要花太长时间来启动，不要花太长时间来验证你的假设。

Lenny Rachitsky: The Hangout story is amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：Hangout 的故事非常精彩。

It's like a classic product.

这就像一个经典产品。

People now make fun of just Google, why can't you get this right?

现在人们只取笑谷歌，你为什么不能把这件事做好呢？

And it's been changed.

并且已经改变了。

Names have changed a hundred times.

名字已经改变了一百次。

Interestingly, Meet ended up being really good, Google Meet.

有趣的是，Meet 最终变得非常好，Google Meet。

Mayur Kamat: That's the last thing I did when I left Google.

Mayur Kamat：这是我离开 Google 后做的最后一件事。

Mayur Kamat: After we built the Hangouts, they're like, "Okay, this is not going anywhere.

Mayur Kamat：我们建立环聊后，他们会说：“好吧，这不会有任何进展。

We are going to start this new product called Allo." Which also didn't work.

我们将推出这款名为 Allo 的新产品。”这也不起作用。

Mayur Kamat: But then I said, you know what?

Mayur Kamat：但后来我说，你知道吗？

We should still, because I used to work for Android Enterprise team before, I'm like, what if we just made it an enterprise product?

我们仍然应该这样做，因为我以前曾在 Android Enterprise 团队工作过，我想，如果我们只是将其作为企业产品呢？

Let me at least write the spec for it on, hey, what would we do differently for, I still called it Hangouts by Enterprise.

至少让我写一下它的规范，嘿，我们会做些什么不同的事情，我仍然称之为企业环聊。

They rebranded it later.

他们后来重新命名了它。

But that was my salvaging moment for, but from the sense, I mean the Hangouts team invented WebRTC.

但这是我的挽救时刻，但从某种意义上说，我的意思是 Hangouts 团队发明了 WebRTC。

Now every single communication in the world happens on WebRTC.

现在世界上的每一次通信都发生在 WebRTC 上。

So if you think from the cultural and technological impact that the Hangouts team had is insane.

因此，如果你认为环聊团队所产生的文化和技术影响是疯狂的。

Like this tool we are using every single meeting product, every single WhatsApp, voice calling, video calling, every Zoom, everything runs on WebRTC.

就像这个工具一样，我们正在使用每一个会议产品、每一个 WhatsApp、语音通话、视频通话、每一个 Zoom，一切都在 WebRTC 上运行。

From a technology side, I think that was a pretty massive win that the team came up with that.

从技术角度来看，我认为团队的这一成果是一次相当巨大的胜利。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the power of having Chrome having a browser, also, just introducing technologies.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是 Chrome 浏览器的力量，而且只是引入了技术。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you want to leave listeners with or maybe a point you want to double down on just to kind of leave a little last little nugget before we get to the lightning round?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电轮之前，最后一个问题是，您还有什么想留给听众的吗？或者也许您想加倍努力，以便在我们进入闪电轮之前留下最后一点点东西？

Mayur Kamat: I mean, just summarize, it depends on the audience.

Mayur Kamat：我的意思是，总结一下，这取决于观众。

A lot of the folks who probably listen to it or coming it from a perspective of like, "Hey, how does this help me be better at my job tomorrow than I was today?" And for them I would say, again, if you're truly working in areas where you think you're optimizing your strengths and having fun, just keep doing it and just keep that as your kind of north star, as you look at new pieces.

很多人可能会从这样的角度听它或听它，“嘿，这如何帮助我明天的工作比今天更好？”对于他们，我想说，如果你真的在你认为自己正在优化自己的优势并享受乐趣的领域工作，那就继续做下去，并在你看到新作品时将其作为你的北极星。

When you talk to new companies, try and evaluate the overlap of superpowers.

当你与新公司交谈时，尝试评估超级大国的重叠情况。

What is your superpower?

你的超能力是什么？

What is the company's superpower?

公司的超能力是什么？

Will they feed each other?

他们会互相喂食吗？

Mayur Kamat: If you get a very strong resonance there, I think that would be a great career step irrespective of whether it's in Bangkok or Spain or however the compensation is going to be, because truly you'll find that you grow much faster because it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy at that point.

Mayur Kamat：如果你在那里得到了非常强烈的共鸣，我认为这将是一个伟大的职业进步，无论是在曼谷还是西班牙，也无论报酬如何，因为你真的会发现你成长得更快，因为这是一种自我实现的预言。

But just keep looking for overlapping superpowers all the time and not just in professional life, even the concepts beyond maybe even for relationships and stuff like folks who are extremely complementing strengths and whose superpowers feed each other make for great life partners.

但要一直寻找重叠的超能力，而不仅仅是在职业生活中，甚至是关系之外的概念，比如那些优势互补、超能力相互补充的人，可以成为伟大的生活伴侣。

So there's maybe that analogy can be extended beyond your career.

所以这个类比也许可以延伸到你的职业生涯之外。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's a powerful point right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个很有说服力的观点。

Well, what a cool way to end that.

嗯，这是一个很酷的结束方式。

Well, with that Mayur, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好吧，有了 Mayur，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Mayur Kamat: The one that I read most recently, so I generally don't read a lot of books because I read a lot of content like, small content.

Mayur Kamat：我最近读的一本，所以我一般不会读很多书，因为我读的内容很多，比如小内容。

Mayur Kamat: And tweets and then Substacks and Discords and WhatsApp messages, and so book takes a mind share shift for me to go read a book.

Mayur Kamat：然后是推文、Substacks、Discords 和 WhatsApp 消息，所以书籍需要我的思维转变，让我去读书。

The one I read most recently, which I thought was pretty amazing and a lot of overlap with what I said today, The Five Kinds Of Wealth.

我最近读到的那本，我认为非常令人惊奇，并且与我今天所说的《五种财富》有很多重叠。

That one was very well articulated, especially the last point I made very early.

这一点说得很好，尤其是我很早就提出的最后一点。

One of the potential paths is you just do well on your job and then you find meaning elsewhere.

潜在的途径之一是你只要做好自己的工作，然后你就会在其他地方找到意义。

This book is probably an incredible structured way of thinking around it.

这本书可能是一种令人难以置信的结构化思维方式。

What is your wealth in terms of your health, your physical health, your mental health, your relationship health, your community and your wealth that you're generating financial wealth is and how do you think holistically?

从你的健康、你的身体健康、你的心理健康、你的人际关系健康、你的社区和你正在创造的财富来看，你的财富是什么？你的整体想法如何？

Because at the end of the day, you are what you optimize for.

因为归根结底，你就是你优化的目标。

If you optimize for financial wealth, you'll become wealthy, but you might not be wealthy in a full spectrum manner.

如果你优化财务财富，你就会变得富有，但你可能不会以全方位的方式变得富有。

Mayur Kamat: The Strengths Finder 2.0, I said very early on.

Mayur Kamat：我很早就说过，优势查找器 2.0。

It's still an interesting book to just think about how you would think about your strengths, but again, if you don't want to read the book, I would just do one of these kind of online quizzes for it.

想想你会如何看待自己的优势，这仍然是一本有趣的书，但同样，如果你不想读这本书，我只会做其中一种在线测验。

But The Five Kinds of Wealth then Strength Finder 2.0 would be maybe what I would suggest.

但我建议的可能是《五种财富》和《力量发现者 2.0》。

Lenny Rachitsky: The first book by Sahil Bloom friend of the podcast willing to tell this stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：Sahil Bloom 的播客朋友愿意讲述这些内容的第一本书。

I forgot to mention the story briefly about the Strength Finder stuff.

我忘了简单提一下关于力量发现者的故事。

So I actually, when I was leaving Airbnb and looking for my next thing and even thinking about leaving, I took a strengths test and I was working with executive coach and I saw the results and she's like, "What do you see in these results?

所以实际上，当我离开 Airbnb 并寻找下一个目标，甚至考虑离开时，我进行了一次优势测试，我正在与执行教练一起工作，我看到了结果，她说：“你从这些结果中看到了什么？

What are these results telling you?" I'm like, I don't know.

这些结果告诉你什么？”我想，我不知道。

She's like, this tells me you should start your own company and work on your own.

她说，这告诉我你应该创办自己的公司并自己工作。

All the strengths that are popping up here are things that you as a founder need and that really helped me.

这里出现的所有优势都是作为创始人所需要的，这对我确实有帮助。

Mayur Kamat: What's your one person data point on that?

Mayur Kamat：您对此的个人数据是什么？

Was it a good one?

这是一件好事吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Was it is a good decision, you mean?

Lenny Rachitsky：你的意思是，这是一个好的决定吗？

Mayur Kamat: Yes, relying on that strength test to make a career.

Mayur Kamat：是的，依靠力量测试来成就事业。

Lenny Rachitsky: The best.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最好的。

So great.

太棒了。

I am such a huge fan of Strengths Finder and any kind of strengths test and interestingly, people may be afraid of taking them because they'd be like, here's what I suck at.

我非常喜欢优势查找器和任何类型的优势测试，有趣的是，人们可能害怕参加它们，因为他们会说，这就是我不擅长的。

It always makes you feel good.

它总是让你感觉良好。

It's like, here's the stuff you're good at and it's not like, here's what you're bad at.

就像，这是你擅长的事情，而不是，这是你不擅长的事情。

It's just, here's the stuff you're best at and it's always positive.

只是，这是你最擅长的事情，而且总是积极的。

It's never like you suck at this stuff.

你从来都不擅长这些东西。

It's just not your strength.

只是这不是你的强项。

So it was a huge win for me.

所以这对我来说是一个巨大的胜利。

I highly recommend it.

我强烈推荐它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Especially if you're trying to make a career move.

Lenny Rachitsky：尤其是当你想改变职业生涯时。

So yeah, fully aligned.

所以是的，完全对齐。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Mayur Kamat: The one I saw that kind of TV shows usually I watch to kind of give it down time, so usually I watch just periodic shows, the House or Big Bang Theory and stuff.

Mayur Kamat：我看那种电视节目通常是为了消磨时间，所以通常我只看定期节目，《众议院》或《生活大爆炸》之类的东西。

The one that I saw recently that kind of shook me a little bit was Adolescence.

我最近看到的一个让我有点震撼的就是《青春期》。

Again, it's a tough topic around teenage mental health and violence in schools and just the way it was shot.

这又是一个关于青少年心理健康和学校暴力以及拍摄方式的棘手话题。

I would see the first episode, even if it's not your genre because it's shot in a single camera motion and the whole episode for an hour, there's no cut.

我会看第一集，即使它不是你的类型，因为它是用单个摄像机动作拍摄的，整个集持续一个小时，没有剪辑。

Camera just keeps moving and it just makes bizarre, you feel a little different than watching it.

镜头一直在移动，这让你觉得很奇怪，你感觉和观看它有点不同。

Irrespective of this topic, which is also pretty intense.

抛开这个话题不谈，这个话题也相当激烈。

Just visually you feel different, and if you're motion sick like me, you really feel different.

只是视觉上你感觉不同，如果你像我一样晕车，你真的感觉不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's wonderful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太棒了。

It sounds like what a ...

听起来像是一个什么...

Mayur Kamat: I would watch that.

Mayur Kamat：我会看的。

I need to watch The White Lotus because everybody keeps bringing it every time I tell them I'm from Thailand and I haven't seen it yet, so I'm behind on my mean culture a little bit.

我需要看《白莲花》，因为每次我告诉他们我来自泰国时，每个人都带着它，而我还没有看过它，所以我有点落后于我的刻薄文化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, you are.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，你是。

It's like you, no one else has not seen it.

就像你一样，别人没见过。

I think you're the only person left.

我想你是唯一剩下的人了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Mayur Kamat: So products, so I spend most of my time using banking and trading products, and I would give a plug here.

Mayur Kamat：产品，所以我大部分时间都在使用银行和交易产品，我会在这里介绍一下。

If you're in Europe, try N26 or even revenue, incredible product.

如果您在欧洲，请尝试 N26 甚至收入，令人难以置信的产品。

If you're in the US, Robin Hood, just the motion design they have done and the onboarding is just a joy to use, whether you use it for banking or trading or just for their card.

如果你在美国，罗宾汉，他们所做的动作设计和入门都是一种使用的乐趣，无论你将其用于银行业务、交易还是只是用于他们的卡。

I just find the product design and motion, especially as you touch and swipe and try to be done.

我只是发现产品设计和动作，尤其是当你触摸、滑动并尝试完成时。

Anything that Nikita Beard launches.

尼基塔·比尔德推出的任何东西。

So I just downloaded Bible study or Bible chat yesterday.

所以我昨天刚刚下载了圣经学习或圣经聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw a tweet about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到了一条关于此事的推文。

It's like in the top 10 of all social apps and it's like bible study.

它就像所有社交应用程序中的前 10 名，就像圣经学习一样。

Mayur Kamat: Yeah, it's top ten.

Mayur Kamat：是的，它是前十名。

And I can tell why I have got three messages right now to treat my anxiety by reading Bible today, and one of the time I was feeling slightly anxious, so maybe there's some magic there.

我可以说出为什么我现在通过阅读圣经得到了三个信息来治疗我的焦虑，其中一次我感到有点焦虑，所以也许其中有一些魔力。

Mayur Kamat: But the one app that I would just for personal, I used to write in Hindi.

Mayur Kamat：但是我只为个人使用的一款应用程序，我曾经用印地语编写。

I used to write poems growing up as a kid, and that was just now this app Suno.com.

我小时候经常写诗，现在就是这个应用程序 Suno.com。

I can make songs from them and they're incredible songs, at least I think so.

我可以用它们创作歌曲，它们是令人难以置信的歌曲，至少我这么认为。

Nobody else thinks it so far, but just the fact that you can write something and now you have a song is just magical.

到目前为止，没有人这么认为，但事实上，你可以写一些东西，现在你有一首歌，这真是太神奇了。

The first time that AI, I saw a use case, I said, it's nothing so far that makes me a better CPO right now, but as an artist or at least the bathroom artist, it's just incredible that you can think of something, put it down there and you can actually see what would a professional singer and a band and a musician if they were to compose it, what it would look like.

当我第一次看到人工智能的用例时，我说，到目前为止，没有什么能让我成为更好的 CPO，但作为一名艺术家或至少是浴室艺术家，你能想到一些东西，把它放在那里，你实际上可以看到如果专业歌手、乐队和音乐家要创作它，它会是什么样子，这真是令人难以置信。

So that's probably the most wild I have been by technology, the recent times, the Suno.com.

所以这可能是我最近对科技最疯狂的一次，Suno.com。

They're onboarding flow sucks and their growth product is, if I were the PM on Suno, I would do things a lot differently, but their core tech is magical.

他们的入职流程很糟糕，他们的增长产品是，如果我是 Suno 的 PM，我会做很多不同的事情，但他们的核心技术很神奇。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm a huge fan.

Lenny Rachitsky：我是一个超级粉丝。

One of my favorite things to do at Suno, I think it's Suno.ai also, is just ask it to make a song in the style of a sea shanty.

我在 Suno 最喜欢做的事情之一，我想也是 Suno.ai，就是要求它制作一首海上棚屋风格的歌曲。

It's so fun.

太有趣了。

And they give you a few options, so you could be like, here's this version, that version.

他们给了你一些选择，所以你可能会说，这是这个版本，那个版本。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, two more questions.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回来发现它对工作或生活有用？

Mayur Kamat: One, I kind of relates to the things we talked about is there's no right or wrong decision.

Mayur Kamat：第一，我对我们所讨论的事情的看法是，没有正确或错误的决定。

There's just low and fast decisions.

只有低速而快速的决策。

Now, there are some extreme caveats to that around you're doing something that might kill your user like healthcare or military or even compliance, which can kill your company.

现在，有一些极端的警告，提醒您正在做的事情可能会杀死您的用户，例如医疗保健或军事，甚至合规性，这可能会杀死您的公司。

Don't use it.

不要使用它。

But everywhere else in generally goes back to the strategy thing we talked about as well.

但其他地方通常也会回到我们讨论过的战略问题。

A lot of the times if it's you make a wrong decision, if you make it fast enough, you would know it was wrong and you would correct it and you would still do it faster than thinking months for the right decision.

很多时候，如果你做出了错误的决定，如果你做出得足够快，你就会知道这是错误的，你会纠正它，而且你仍然会比思考几个月做出正确的决定更快地做出决定。

So for anything that's reversible, anything that's not going to get you in jail or kill your company, no right or wrong decisions, just slow or fast decisions.

因此，对于任何可逆的事情，任何不会让你入狱或毁掉你的公司的事情，没有正确或错误的决定，只有缓慢或快速的决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

You've lived in a bunch of places.

你住过很多地方。

You've lived in Spain, Thailand, Mumbai, Seattle, I think Texas, even for some period for school?

你在西班牙、泰国、孟买、西雅图、我想是德克萨斯州住过，甚至在学校住过一段时间？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

There's probably other places.

应该还有其他地方吧

Which has the best food?

哪家的食物最好吃？

Mayur Kamat: Bangkok, no question.

Mayur Kamat：曼谷，毫无疑问。

Barcelona comes closer for some, but Bangkok, you can have a three Michelin star, one of the top five restaurants in the world, spend $500 a meal or you can have a $1 street food, stir-fried pork and rice with basil.

巴塞罗那对一些人来说更接近，但曼谷，你可以花 500 美元吃一顿米其林三星级餐厅，世界排名前五的餐厅，或者你可以吃 1 美元的街头小吃，罗勒炒猪肉和米饭。

Incredible.

极好的。

Just the spectrum of entire, from the cheapest food you can think of, the most expensive food you can think of in that same one kilometer walkable area, having thousands of these, literally there's the density of food.

在同一公里可步行区域内，从您能想到的最便宜的食物到您能想到的最昂贵的食物，总共有数千种，这就是食物的密度。

No one comes closer.

没有人靠近。

Barcelona has incredible restaurant.

巴塞罗那有一家令人难以置信的餐厅。

The best restaurant in the world is like a block away from here.

世界上最好的餐厅离这里只有一个街区。

It's called Disputar.

它的名字叫Disputar。

Takes like two years to get on the wait list there, but that's on one end of the spectrum, Barcelona, that probably comes close second.

在那里需要两年的时间才能进入候补名单，但巴塞罗那是这一范围的一端，可能紧随其后。

But that cheap, get down 2:00 A.M.

但这么便宜，凌晨 2:00 下车

walk down and have an incredible meal for a dollar.

走下去，花一美元就能吃一顿令人难以置信的饭菜。

nothing comes closer to it than Bangkok.

没有什么比曼谷更接近它了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode's a great ad for Thailand.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是泰国的一个很棒的广告。

Let's go.

我们走吧。

You definitely got to watch White Lotus.

你一定要看《白莲花》。

Mayur, this was awesome.

马尤尔，这太棒了。

We covered so much ground.

我们涵盖了很多领域。

I feel like I got to know you so well.

我感觉我已经很了解你了。

We covered so many-

我们涵盖了很多——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

perspectives in all this.

对这一切的看法。

Yeah, we're not done yet.

是的，我们还没有完成。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe check out if there's roles at N26 and then how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想与您联系，可以在哪里找到您，也许看看 N26 是否有职位，然后听众如何对您有用？

Mayur Kamat: Find me, this is one of the things being old is I was one of the first users of LinkedIn, so linkedin.com/mayur.

Mayur Kamat：找到我，这是古老的事情之一，因为我是 LinkedIn 的第一批用户之一，所以 linkedin.com/mayur。

Facebook, so facebook.com/kamat or N26.com.

Facebook，例如 facebook.com/kamat 或 N26.com。

mk@N26.com.

mk@N26.com。

If you're especially curious about how we do stuff here, we are hiring, we are growing really fast.

如果您对我们如何在这里做事特别好奇，我们正在招聘，我们发展得非常快。

As I said, banking's a great business to be in.

正如我所说，银行业是一个很棒的行业。

We're not going to go out of flavor for the next few thousand years.

在接下来的几千年里，我们的味道不会消失。

So if you're thinking of a career, you're thinking about Spain or was thinking about Berlin, just a whole different interesting lifestyle and different kind of product thinking, please reach out on any of those channels.

因此，如果您正在考虑职业，您正在考虑西班牙或柏林，只是一种完全不同的有趣生活方式和不同类型的产品思维，请联系这些渠道中的任何一个。

Mayur Kamat: If you're in Europe, download or try N26.

Mayur Kamat：如果您在欧洲，请下载或尝试 N26。

Like we go by the motto, love your bank.

就像我们的座右铭一样，爱你的银行。

Our founders say that people would rather go to a dentist than to a bank branch, and that's why we build this.

我们的创始人说，人们宁愿去看牙医，也不愿去银行分行，这就是我们建立这个系统的原因。

We truly feel like for an everyday banking, it's just use the app and you feel like, I want to use my banking app every day.

我们真的觉得对于日常银行业务来说，只需使用该应用程序，您就会觉得，我想每天使用我的银行应用程序。

There's some bit of magic, which I didn't have that much contribution yet.

有一些魔力，但我还没有做出那么多贡献。

I made it a little bit simple and seamless, but magic was there before and so if you're in Europe, you're looking for a new bank account, N26.com.

我把它做得有点简单和无缝，但魔法之前就存在，所以如果你在欧洲，你正在寻找一个新的银行账户，N26.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

Mayur, thank you so much for being here.

马尤尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Mayur Kamat: Thank you.

马尤尔·卡马特：谢谢。

Thank you, Lenny, and thank you everyone.

谢谢你，莱尼，也谢谢大家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。