Building Anchor, selling to Spotify, and lessons learned | Maya Prohovnik (Head of Podcast Product)

Maya Prohovnik: We were obsessed with reducing friction, this was our constant battle.

Maya Prohovnik：我们痴迷于减少摩擦，这是我们持续不断的战斗。

And so we hired a couple of college interns and we brought them in and we were like, people are going to push this magical one button in the Anchor app and they're going to say, I want to distribute my podcast, and your job is going to be to do all that same manual stuff manually, but to them it's going to feel magical and it happened automatically.

所以我们雇佣了几个大学实习生，我们把他们带进来，我们就像，人们会在 Anchor 应用程序中按下这个神奇的按钮，他们会说，我想分发我的播客，而你的工作将是手动完成所有相同的手动工作，但对他们来说，这会感觉很神奇，而且它会自动发生。

I still don't know how many people know this.

我还不知道有多少人知道这一点。

I think people think that we had some secret backdoor deal with Apple for distribution, but we just had college students making Apple podcast accounts and then submitting hundreds of thousands of podcasts through these accounts, and I think that was a really big part of why we got so much hosting market share so quickly because it was such an insane benefit over the other platforms which otherwise had been commoditized at that point.

我认为人们认为我们与苹果有一些秘密的后门协议来进行分发，但我们只是让大学生创建苹果播客帐户，然后通过这些帐户提交数十万个播客，我认为这就是为什么我们如此迅速地获得如此多的托管市场份额的一个重要部分，因为与当时已经商品化的其他平台相比，这是一个疯狂的好处。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard win experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验中学习。

Today my guest is Maya Prohovnik.

今天我的嘉宾是玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克。

Maya is Spotify's head of product for podcasting where she oversees product design and engineering teams responsible for building the tools and experiences for podcasters and their listeners.

Maya 是 Spotify 播客产品主管，负责监督产品设计和工程团队，负责为播客及其听众构建工具和体验。

Maya was also employee number one at Anchor, which Spotify acquired five years ago, which became the core of Spotify's podcasting hosting platform, which now powers over 75% of all new podcasts created in the world.

Maya 也是 Spotify 五年前收购的 Anchor 的一号员工，该公司成为 Spotify 播客托管平台的核心，目前全球 75% 以上的新播客都由该平台提供支持。

In our conversation, we dig into why Maya is obsessed with dogfooding and why she encourages everyone on her team to create their own podcast.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了玛雅为何痴迷于内部测试，以及为什么她鼓励团队中的每个人创建自己的播客。

She's got four podcasts of her own, which are all very highly rated and people love.

她有四个自己的播客，评价都很高，深受人们喜爱。

We dig into how she stays productive and organized in a very hectic senior leadership role, what she's done to allow for Anchor to continue to operate like a startup within a larger organization.

我们深入研究了她如何在非常忙碌的高级领导职位中保持高效和组织性，以及她为使 Anchor 能够像大型组织中的初创公司一样继续运营所做的努力。

Lenny: Also, a bunch of really fun early Anchor stories, including how interns uploaded podcasts to Apple and Spotify manually before they could automate that.

Lenny：另外，还有一些非常有趣的早期 Anchor 故事，包括实习生如何在实现自动化之前手动将播客上传到 Apple 和 Spotify。

Plus, how to find a balance between using your gut and using data to make decisions.

另外，如何在利用直觉和利用数据做出决策之间找到平衡。

Also, public speaking tips, so much more.

此外，还有公开演讲技巧等等。

Maya is amazing and I'm really excited for you to hear this episode.

玛雅太棒了，我很高兴你能听到这一集。

With that, I bring you Maya Prohovnik after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Maya Prohovnik。

This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

本集由 Sidebar 为您带来。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一就是创建个人董事会，这在几年前对我来说非常有效。

A trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

一个值得信赖的同侪小组，您可以在这里讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

Lenny: This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

莱尼：这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted private supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的私人支持性同行团体进行匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们可以齐心协力，更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响力。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利性的指导下，侧栏使您能够在旅程的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today, jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

今天您就可以在 Sidebar 与您的员工见面，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？访问 sidebar.com/lenny 了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio.

Lenny：本集由 Wix Studio 为您带来。

Your agency has just landed a dream client.

您的代理机构刚刚找到了一位梦想客户。

You already have big ideas for the website, but you have the tools to bring your ambitious vision to life.

您已经对网站有了宏伟的想法，但您拥有将雄心勃勃的愿景变为现实的工具。

Let me tell you about Wix Studio, the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency.

让我向您介绍一下 Wix Studio，这个新平台可以让代理机构以最高效率交付卓越的客户网站。

How?

如何？

First, let's talk about advanced design capabilities.

首先我们来谈谈先进的设计能力。

With Wix Studio, you can build unique layouts with a revolutionary grid experience and watches elements scale proportionally by default.

借助 Wix Studio，您可以通过革命性的网格体验构建独特的布局，并且默认情况下观察元素按比例缩放。

No-code animations at Sparks of delight while adding custom CSS gives total design control.

Sparks of pleasure 的无代码动画同时添加自定义 CSS 提供了全面的设计控制。

Bring ambitious client projects to life with any industry with a fully integrated suite of business solutions from e-commerce to events, bookings and more, and extend the capabilities even further with hundreds of APIs and integrations.

借助从电子商务到活动、预订等的完全集成的业务解决方案套件，将雄心勃勃的客户项目带入任何行业，并通过数百个 API 和集成进一步扩展功能。

You know what else?

你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make sense.

工作流程才有意义。

There's the built-in AI tools, the on canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover, and that's not all.

还有内置的人工智能工具、画布上的协作、集中的工作空间、跨站点的资产重用、无缝的客户端移交，而这还不是全部。

Find out more at wix.com/studio.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Maya, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

玛雅，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Maya Prohovnik: Thank you so much for having me.

Maya Prohovnik：非常感谢您邀请我。

You and I have been trying to get together for almost a year now.

你和我已经尝试聚在一起已经快一年了。

Lenny: Oh, man.

莱尼：哦，伙计。

But it all worked out and it's going to be very worth it.

但一切都成功了，这将是非常值得的。

Maya Prohovnik: You had a kid.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：你有一个孩子。

I took parental leave.

我休了育儿假。

Lenny: Oh, right.

莱尼：哦，对了。

That is true.

确实如此。

Man, overlapping kid journeys.

伙计，重叠的孩子旅程。

I also have been just really looking forward to this chat partly because you're amazing and partly because it just feels very meta to have the head of product of Spotify podcasting on the podcast, and I imagine many people are listening to this on Spotify, so there's this, I don't know, turtles all the way down situation happening.

我也一直非常期待这次聊天，部分是因为你太棒了，部分是因为 Spotify 播客产品负责人在播客上的感觉非常元，我想很多人都在 Spotify 上听这个，所以我不知道，海龟一直在发生这种情况。

Maya Prohovnik: I totally agree.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我完全同意。

I was thinking the same thing when I was preparing for it where it's like so much of what we have to talk about is so meta, and then we also have you and I know each other because you've been sending me feedback about the podcast experience on Spotify, so lots of circular stuff there.

当我准备它时，我也在想同样的事情，我们要谈论的很多内容都是如此元，然后我们也让你和我彼此认识，因为你一直在向我发送有关 Spotify 上播客体验的反馈，所以那里有很多循环的东西。

Lenny: Speaking of Spotify and podcasting, clearly you've done an incredible job building podcasting on Spotify.

Lenny：说到 Spotify 和播客，显然您在 Spotify 上构建播客方面做得非常出色。

From what I've read, it's the number one podcasting platform now.

据我所知，它现在是第一大播客平台。

Is there a stat you could share by just the percentage of the market share essentially of Spotify podcasting?

有没有一个统计数据可以分享一下 Spotify 播客的市场份额百分比？

Maya Prohovnik: I think we are now officially over a third of global market share of podcast listening, which is pretty insane.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为我们现在正式占据播客收听全球市场份额的三分之一以上，这非常疯狂。

Lenny: Also, I think on the hosting side, it's an even bigger number.

莱尼：另外，我认为在托管方面，这个数字甚至更大。

Is there a stat you can share by just maybe new podcasts that are launched and how many are hosted on Spotify?

您是否可以分享一个统计数据，包括新推出的播客以及 Spotify 上托管的播客数量？

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah, I think at this point it's more than 75% of all new shows on Spotify are hosted with Spotify for podcasters, which used to be Anchor.

Maya Prohovnik：是的，我认为目前 Spotify 上超过 75% 的新节目都是由 Spotify 为播客制作的，而 Spotify 以前是 Anchor。

When we were acquired by Spotify, I think Anchor had already gotten to 40% of all new podcasts or something crazy.

当我们被 Spotify 收购时，我认为 Anchor 已经占据了所有新播客的 40%，或者有些疯狂。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Lenny: Insane.

莱尼：疯了。

Okay, so for these reasons, I want to spend the time that we have together unpacking how you operate as a product leader and essentially what you've learned about product org leadership growth and all those things.

好吧，出于这些原因，我想花一些时间来了解一下您作为产品领导者的运作方式，以及您对产品组织领导力成长以及所有这些内容的基本了解。

How's that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Maya Prohovnik: That sounds perfect.

Maya Prohovnik：听起来很完美。

My favorite topics.

我最喜欢的话题。

Lenny: Okay, let's do it.

莱尼：好吧，我们开始吧。

So as the first question I asked a PM who actually works for you, Wilma Chu, what to ask you, and the first thing that came to mind for her was this idea of dogfooding and how important dogfooding is to your way of operating as a product leader.

因此，作为第一个问题，我问了一位真正为你工作的产品经理 Wilma Chu，该问你什么，她首先想到的是测试测试的想法，以及测试测试对于你作为产品领导者的运作方式有多么重要。

As an example, you have three of your own podcasts on Spotify and I checked them out and they're all very highly rated, so they're not just like bullshit podcasts, they're real people actually listen and enjoy them.

举个例子，你在 Spotify 上有三个你自己的播客，我检查了它们，它们的评价都非常高，所以它们不仅仅是废话播客，它们是真正的人们在聆听和享受它们。

So my question to you is just why is dogfooding so important to you?

所以我想问你的问题是为什么测试对你来说如此重要？

How do you actually operationalize it?

您如何实际操作它？

And then also maybe just talk about these podcasts that you have.

然后也可能只是谈论您拥有的这些播客。

Maya Prohovnik: Sure.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：当然。

Well, I can talk about them forever, so be careful because I'll take up the whole hour with that.

好吧，我可以永远谈论它们，所以要小心，因为我会花掉整整一个小时。

But I actually have four podcasts.

但我实际上有四个播客。

There's two that I don't update as much anymore.

有两个我不再更新了。

So my first ever podcast was about Stephen King books.

所以我的第一个播客是关于斯蒂芬·金的书的。

I'm a big Stephen King super fan.

我是斯蒂芬·金的超级粉丝。

So, when I joined Anchor, and we weren't even fully podcasts yet, if you recall, we were something else audio, we were trying to avoid being podcasts for a while and then we decided to just be podcasts.

所以，当我加入 Anchor 时，我们甚至还不是完全的播客，如果你还记得的话，我们是其他音频产品，我们试图避免成为播客一段时间，然后我们决定只做播客。

But when I got into audio and trying to help audio creators, the first thing I did was make my own podcast because I was like, I know nothing about production or what it feels to even be a creator in that way.

但当我进入音频领域并试图帮助音频创作者时，我做的第一件事就是制作自己的播客，因为我当时想，我对制作一无所知，也不知道以这种方式成为创作者是什么感觉。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I started my Stephen King podcast because that is the number one thing that I just love to talk about every day, which is one of my tips for podcasters.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：所以我开始了我的斯蒂芬·金播客，因为这是我每天喜欢谈论的第一件事，这是我给播客的建议之一。

If you're trying to figure out what to make a show about, it's what can you talk about for?

如果你想弄清楚要制作一个节目，那就是你能谈论什么？

So I did that one for a while actually.

所以我实际上这样做了一段时间。

I spent a ton of time editing it.

我花了很多时间来编辑它。

I spent a ton of time on SEO and marketing it, and it got to the point, I think at its peak I was getting 5,000 listeners in a episode, which now seems small for a podcast, I know.

我在 SEO 和营销上花了很多时间，我认为在巅峰时期我在一集里吸引了 5,000 名听众，我知道，现在对于播客来说这似乎很小。

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah, for a test podcast that I was just doing to learn how to do my job, I was so excited to get that audience and I fell off because, well, mostly I had a kid, I joined Spotify.

Maya Prohovnik：是的，对于一个测试播客，我只是为了学习如何做好我的工作而做的，我很高兴能得到观众，但我失败了，因为，嗯，主要是我有一个孩子，我加入了 Spotify。

My life's really busy and that level of production is so hard to do if it's not your full-time job, but I still get emails all the time from people who are like, please bring it back.

我的生活真的很忙，如果这不是你的全职工作，那么制作水平是很难做到的，但我仍然总是收到人们发来的电子邮件，比如，请把它带回来。

I never found another great Stephen King because I really got deep into the books and the connection between the books.

我再也没有找到另一个伟大的斯蒂芬·金，因为我真的很深入地研究了这些书以及书之间的联系。

So that was one of them.

这就是其中之一。

The second one I did, still going today.

我做了第二个，今天还在继续。

So my husband and I have this Big Brother podcast, the show Big Brother, it's terrible.

所以我和我丈夫有一个老大哥播客，节目《老大哥》，太糟糕了。

Maya Prohovnik: I would not recommend listening to my podcast unless you are a Big Brother super fan, and I actually started that one because I wanted to get the other end of the spectrum where something we were really focused on with Anchor at the time was first time creators really growing the pie of podcasters and specifically we had this theory that podcast creation of the future would be mobile first and we had this really high-powered mobile app, and so I was like, I'm going to make a podcast that's fully mobile, not highly edited, not worry about making something that sounds like a traditional podcast.

Maya Prohovnik：我不建议听我的播客，除非你是老大哥的超级粉丝，而我实际上开始播客是因为我想得到另一个极端，即我们当时与 Anchor 真正关注的事情是创作者第一次真正扩大播客的份额，特别是我们有这样的理论，即未来的播客创作将是移动优先，我们拥有这个真正高性能的移动应用程序，所以我想，我要制作一个播客这是完全移动的，没有经过高度编辑，不用担心制作听起来像传统播客的东西。

And I really leaned into all the Anchor features.

我真的很喜欢 Anchor 的所有功能。

So it's fully recorded on my phone.

所以它完全记录在我的手机上。

I do almost no editing, but I think the thing that's kept us going, because it's been six or seven years now we've been doing the show, it's really the community, the people who call in.

我几乎不做任何编辑，但我认为让我们继续前进的事情是，因为我们做这个节目已经有六七年了，这实际上是社区，是那些打来电话的人。

Maya Prohovnik: I have no idea who these people are.

Maya Prohovnik：我不知道这些人是谁。

I have no idea how they found this terrible show, but they love it.

我不知道他们是怎么发现这个糟糕的节目的，但他们喜欢它。

They call in every week.

他们每周都会打电话过来。

And that I think is one of the many things I've learned from dogfooding, a podcast creation app is that community piece is so important.

我认为这是我从 Dogfooding 中学到的许多东西之一，一个播客创建应用程序的社区部分非常重要。

If you don't know if anyone's listening, if you don't know what they like about it, if you don't know if they're coming back, it's so hard to keep investing the time.

如果你不知道是否有人在听，如果你不知道他们喜欢什么，如果你不知道他们是否会回来，那么就很难继续投入时间。

And then I made a show, my least known podcast, because it only got like 25 listeners for episode, it's about my favorite book of all time called Children of Time.

然后我做了一个节目，我最不为人知的播客，因为它每集只有 25 名听众，它是关于我一直以来最喜欢的书《时光之子》的。

It's actually a trilogy.

这实际上是一个三部曲。

And the reason it got almost no listeners is because there were tons of spoilers in the podcast and the book is like 800 pages long.

它几乎没有听众的原因是播客中有大量剧透，而且这本书有 800 页长。

So we were like, do not listen if you haven't read the book.

所以我们说，如果你还没有读过这本书，就不要听。

Maya Prohovnik: So, it was very niche, but I think it's a really good podcast if you've read Children of Time.

Maya Prohovnik：所以，它非常小众，但如果你读过《时间之子》，我认为这是一个非常好的播客。

And then my last one I just started doing a couple of years ago is about parenting.

几年前我刚刚开始做的最后一项工作是关于养育子女的。

So I have a son who's two and a half now and we have been documenting our journey as parents all the way from, we went through IVF, so starting with sort of fertility, I have a really fun episode about childbirth if people are interested in that sort of thing.

我现在有一个两岁半的儿子，我们一直在记录我们作为父母的旅程，从我们经历试管受精开始，所以从生育能力开始，如果人们对这类事情感兴趣的话，我有一个关于分娩的非常有趣的插曲。

And then ever since then it's just been episodes about the transition to parenthood, which has not been particularly easy for us, and now my son's a toddler, so lots of fun things happening there.

从那时起，这只是关于向为人父母的过渡的剧集，这对我们来说并不是特别容易，现在我的儿子是个小孩，所以那里发生了很多有趣的事情。

You're not there yet, but you will be and then you can listen to my toddler episodes.

你还没有到达那里，但你会到达那里，然后你就可以听我的幼儿剧集了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I got to listen to the next...

我得听下一个...

A few months ahead to learn from what you've learned.

提前几个月从你所学到的知识中学习。

Maya Prohovnik: Yes, I think that's a good tactic.

Maya Prohovnik：是的，我认为这是一个很好的策略。

Lenny: Before we talk about dogfooding, have you ever considered going full-time on this stuff?

莱尼：在我们谈论内部测试之前，你有没有考虑过全职从事这方面的工作？

This is always an option for people and clearly you've done great.

这始终是人们的一个选择，显然你做得很好。

At least two podcasts are killing it.

至少有两个播客正在扼杀它。

Maya Prohovnik: I have not.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我没有。

And I think it's so funny because with my parenting podcast too, and even my terrible Big Brother podcast, I get compliments all the time and people are like, "I love listening to this." And my husband also is a really funny and a really good podcaster, but I don't know why I don't think of myself as a creator.

我认为这很有趣，因为我的育儿播客，甚至是我糟糕的老大哥播客，我总是得到赞美，人们会说，“我喜欢听这个。”我的丈夫也是一位非常有趣且非常优秀的播客，但我不知道为什么我不认为自己是一个创作者。

I think to me it still feels like this exercise where it's like I'm making my podcast, but I'm really doing it so that I can learn about our product and get in the mindset of a creator.

我认为对我来说，这仍然像是我在制作播客的练习，但我这样做实际上是为了了解我们的产品并进入创作者的心态。

So I think the problem is I'm just too much of a product person.

所以我认为问题在于我太注重产品了。

It's a means to an end for me instead of the end itself.

对我来说，这是达到目的的一种手段，而不是目的本身。

But that is an interesting question because I know most people who podcasts, their ultimate goal is obviously to be able to do it full-time and that is interesting that I haven't thought about it.

但这是一个有趣的问题，因为我知道大多数播客的人，他们的最终目标显然是能够全职做播客，这很有趣，我没有考虑过这一点。

Lenny: You have a good backup plan of things if anything goes off the rails.

莱尼：如果出现任何问题，你有一个很好的备用计划。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Just coming back to this idea of dogfooding, where does that come from for you?

回到这个“dogfooding”的想法，这对你来说是从哪里来的？

What have you learned about just how to execute that?

关于如何执行它，您学到了什么？

Maya Prohovnik: It's just always been my natural state.

Maya Prohovnik：这一直是我的自然状态。

I've had a handful of different product jobs and I guess they've all been tangentially related to helping creators or creative people.

我从事过一些不同的产品工作，我想它们都与帮助创作者或创意人员无关。

And so I think for me it's like I don't know how you can build those tools if you don't understand that mindset.

所以我认为对我来说，如果你不理解这种心态，我就不知道如何构建这些工具。

I'm not surprised that it came to Wilma's mind when you asked her what to ask me because I am constantly yelling at my product team who do not have podcasts and being like, I really don't think that you can build the right things.

当你问威尔玛要问我什么时，我并不感到惊讶，因为我经常对没有播客的产品团队大喊大叫，我真的不认为你可以构建正确的东西。

If they talk to users all the time, they see the data, but all of them, once they finally start doing their podcast, they're like, I get it.

如果他们一直与用户交谈，他们就会看到数据，但是一旦他们最终开始制作播客，他们就会说，我明白了。

Something clicked and now I feel like I really understand what they need.

突然灵光一闪，我觉得我真的明白他们需要什么。

And I guess building tools for creators is similar to building a B2B product where you really have to understand business, it's their livelihood.

我想为创作者构建工具类似于构建 B2B 产品，你必须真正了解业务，这是他们的生计。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I think if you're just looking at a list of feature requests, you're not necessarily going to prioritize it in the same way as if you deeply feel those problems.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我认为，如果您只是查看功能请求列表，您不一定会像您深刻感受到这些问题一样对它进行优先级排序。

And I think for me, I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but when I first got into tech, I started in customer support, that was how I got into product, and so I think I just am a very user focused product person.

我想对我来说，我不知道我是否向你提到过这一点，但是当我第一次进入技术领域时，我从客户支持开始，这就是我进入产品的方式，所以我认为我只是一个非常以用户为中心的产品人员。

I think there's different schools of thought for product and for me it's always been about making people happy, making their experience better, solving real problems in their lives.

我认为产品有不同的思想流派，对我来说，产品始终是让人们快乐，让他们的体验更好，解决他们生活中的实际问题。

And so for me, becoming one of the users, I think it's made it so much easier for me to advocate for that being a pretty big chunk of the roadmap.

因此，对我来说，成为用户之一，我认为这让我更容易提倡将其作为路线图的一个相当大的部分。

Maya Prohovnik: I think if you don't have that, especially coming from someone in leadership, it's so easy to just fall into that trap of like, well, we're working on the next big strategic thing, which is two years away, and then in the meantime your users are getting no value and then they're just going somewhere else.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为，如果你没有这一点，尤其是来自领导层的人，那么很容易陷入这样的陷阱，比如，我们正在研究下一个重大战略问题，这是两年后的事情，而与此同时，你的用户没有获得任何价值，然后他们就会去其他地方。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

I think it's really important to me.

我认为这对我来说真的很重要。

It makes sense to me and also, I'm not sure how else I would do product.

这对我来说很有意义，而且我不确定我还能如何做产品。

I've never really not done it that way.

我从来没有真正这样做过。

It

它

Lenny: Reminds me of Airbnb Brian was a huge advocate on the host side of the product is like, you need to be a host, but many people couldn't because they didn't have a place that could be hosted.

Lenny：让我想起 Airbnb Brian 是该产品房东方面的大力倡导者，就像，你需要成为一名房东，但很多人不能，因为他们没有可以出租的地方。

Is there anything you've learned about just how to make this a thing that actually works effectively, a way to operationalize this for people listening, they're like, "Oh, I should start encouraging my team to do?"

你有没有学到什么关于如何让这件事真正有效地运作，一种让人们倾听的方法，他们会说，“哦，我应该开始鼓励我的团队这样做？”

Maya Prohovnik: I'm constantly reminding our team to do this.

Maya Prohovnik：我不断提醒我们的团队这样做。

And then I think that also comes from the other people who are doing it.

我认为这也来自其他正在做这件事的人。

So we really elevate the people on our team who have their own podcasts, we help them tell their stories internally.

因此，我们确实提升了团队中拥有自己播客的人员的水平，我们帮助他们在内部讲述自己的故事。

Whenever we do an offsite or any team activity, we'll always incorporate podcast creation or some way of making sure everyone on the team is using the tools.

每当我们进行异地活动或任何团队活动时，我们总是会结合播客创建或某种确保团队中的每个人都在使用这些工具的方式。

I don't know, I think a lot of it just comes from, I'm so vocal about this stuff.

我不知道，我想其中很多只是来自于我对这些事情的直言不讳。

The other night I was recording a podcast and I DMed one of the engineers on our team and told him about this tiny little iOS bug and he was like, why are you DMing me about this at nine o'clock at night?

有一天晚上，我在录制播客时，给我们团队的一位工程师发了私信，告诉他这个 iOS 的小错误，他说，你为什么在晚上九点给我发私信？

I think I was also supposed to be on vacation, I can't remember.

我想我也应该去度假，我记不清了。

Maya Prohovnik: But then he got the bug fix the next day.

Maya Prohovnik：但第二天他就修复了错误。

And so I do think making that something that's really top of mind for the team that we do need to fix problems, that these things matter, I don't know.

所以我确实认为，对于我们确实需要解决问题的团队来说，这确实是首要考虑的事情，这些事情很重要，我不知道。

I always listen to the podcast that my team makes, so it's like I know they're going to get at least one listener.

我总是听我的团队制作的播客，所以我知道他们至少会有一位听众。

And then I think also I try, I think because I understand a big part of building tools for podcasters is understanding all the barriers to entry.

然后我想我也会尝试，因为我知道为播客构建工具的很大一部分是了解所有进入壁垒。

It's actually a really difficult thing trying to get someone to put their voice out there, share their story, it's a really emotional journey.

实际上，试图让某人发出自己的声音、分享他们的故事是一件非常困难的事情，这是一个非常情感化的旅程。

And so I feel like I've tried to turn some of the things that I've learned about podcasting into, I've never written it down, maybe I should, but I have a playbook that I'll tell people when they're considering making their own podcast.

所以我觉得我试图把我学到的关于播客的一些东西变成，我从来没有把它写下来，也许我应该写下来，但我有一本剧本，当人们考虑制作自己的播客时，我会告诉他们。

Maya Prohovnik: So it's just things like don't try and record by yourself, find a friend.

Maya Prohovnik：所以这就是不要尝试自己录制，找一个朋友。

That's a much easier way to get into it or don't follow a script because then you're going to feel really awkward and uncomfortable and not feel good about it afterwards.

这是一种更容易进入的方式，或者不遵循脚本，因为那样你会感到非常尴尬和不舒服，并且事后感觉不好。

Or don't just record a test thing for 30 seconds and publish it because you have to make yourself feel the pain that we're trying to understand in our users.

或者不要只录制 30 秒的测试内容然后发布它，因为你必须让自己感受到我们试图理解用户的痛苦。

Lenny: What's cool about that that could turn into just onboarding education, basically your experience of making a podcast informs how to help new podcasters become successful.

莱尼：这很酷，这可以变成入职教育，基本上你制作播客的经验可以告诉你如何帮助新播客取得成功。

Maya Prohovnik: Totally, yeah.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：完全是的。

And also this is less about dogfooding, but one of my favorite things is I'm always just trying to convince everyone I meet to start a podcast, that's just become my annoying thing.

而且这与狗食无关，但我最喜欢的事情之一是我总是试图说服我遇到的每个人开始播客，这只是成为我烦人的事情。

And so if I'm interviewing someone for a job or if I'm at a party and mingling with people, it's like somehow the conversation always turns to their passions and then I'm like, you should make a podcast about it.

因此，如果我正在面试某人的工作，或者如果我在聚会上与人们打交道，就好像谈话总是转向他们的激情，然后我想，你应该制作一个关于它的播客。

And then they're like, well, I can't.

然后他们就说，好吧，我不能。

And then I work my way through all the reasons they say they can't do it, and then they go start a podcast.

然后我会找出他们说他们做不到的所有原因，然后他们开始播客。

So I'm like one person at a time.

所以我一次就像一个人。

Lenny: I see how you're growing the platform now.

莱尼：我知道你们现在是如何发展这个平台的。

Lenny: Very unscalable, hands to hand combat at parties.

莱尼：非常不可扩展，派对上的肉搏战。

I get it.

我得到它。

Okay.

好的。

One thing you mentioned about being maybe the only listen of your coworkers podcast reminds me there's this platform where you could find Spotify music that has never ever been played once and you could be their first play and just go through.

你提到的一件事可能是你同事唯一听的播客，这让我想起有一个平台，你可以在其中找到从未播放过的 Spotify 音乐，并且你可以是他们的第一次播放，然后就可以浏览。

Maya Prohovnik: Yes.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的。

I haven't seen that and now I'm like, how can we productize that for podcasters?

我还没有看到这一点，现在我想，我们如何为播客制作它？

That's such a cool thing.

那真是一件很酷的事情。

Lenny: Anyway, another area that I've heard you're really strong at and came up with Wilma and a few other people I talked to is you find a really good balance between being very data-driven and also very gut driven, and this is something a lot of product leaders try to get better at.

Lenny：无论如何，我听说你非常擅长并与 Wilma 和我交谈过的其他一些人一起提出的另一个领域是，你在数据驱动和直觉驱动之间找到了很好的平衡，这是很多产品领导者试图做得更好的事情。

And so I'm curious just what have you learned about try to find that balance and also is there an example of something where you went against the data and went with your gut and it worked out.

所以我很好奇你在尝试找到这种平衡方面学到了什么，还有一个例子说明你违背数据并凭直觉行事并取得了成功。

Maya Prohovnik: If you remember the old days of the internet, I feel like there was really this different way of thinking about product development where it was so much more about what felt good and what made you feel something as a user in that product.

Maya Prohovnik：如果你还记得互联网的旧时代，我觉得对于产品开发确实有一种不同的思考方式，更多的是关于什么感觉良好以及什么让你作为该产品的用户感受到某种东西。

And so it's like we used to be a lot more playful I think with software.

所以我认为我们过去对软件更感兴趣。

I think we used to put a lot more emphasis on things like delightful animations or fun little Easter eggs, and I am not sure when or where that got lost, but it feels like product management as a role has gotten formalized and become a little bit more scientific, I'm generalizing, but I think a lot of product managers can be so focused on using the right frameworks and making sure that they have the right roadmap and all of this stuff.

我认为我们过去更加重视诸如令人愉快的动画或有趣的小复活节彩蛋之类的事情，我不确定这些东西何时何地丢失了，但感觉产品管理作为一个角色已经变得正式化并且变得更加科学，我概括地说，但我认为很多产品经理可以如此专注于使用正确的框架并确保他们拥有正确的路线图和所有这些东西。

Maya Prohovnik: And then it's like you find yourself in this cycle where you're just building things to build them and not really thinking about the connection to the end user.

Maya Prohovnik：然后，就像您发现自己处于这样的循环中，您只是为了构建东西而构建它们，而没有真正考虑与最终用户的连接。

I think data is amazing and I'm like, we have such an incredible insights team at Spotify, both my insights team and then the broader one.

我认为数据很棒，我想，Spotify 拥有一支令人难以置信的洞察团队，包括我的洞察团队和更广泛的洞察团队。

I think we are so lucky and we have so much knowledge about our users and different cohorts and what people need and what they're missing, and so I think that's extremely valuable.

我认为我们非常幸运，我们对我们的用户和不同群体以及人们需要什么和他们缺少什么有很多了解，所以我认为这是非常有价值的。

I think where people get into trouble is when they think that they can rely solely on the data.

我认为，当人们认为自己只能依赖数据时，就会遇到麻烦。

And so what I spend a lot of time talking to my team about is how we can balance that.

因此，我花了很多时间与我的团队讨论如何平衡这一点。

So thinking about, I guess a couple general things I would say are there are right and wrong times I think for both for your gut and for data.

所以想一想，我想我想说的一些一般性的事情是，我认为对于你的直觉和数据来说，都有正确和错误的时间。

And then there are lots of different kinds of data and different ways to use that data.

还有很多不同类型的数据和使用这些数据的不同方法。

Maya Prohovnik: So I think when you're in the trap of just being like, well, this is the process we always have with insights and we're just going to run this every time we have a feature, I don't think you're going to have a great time.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我认为，当你陷入这样的陷阱时，嗯，这是我们总是有洞察力的过程，每次我们有一个功能时我们都会运行这个过程，我认为你不会玩得很开心。

I think if you think of it as part of the creative process as a PM where you're like, I have a hypothesis, I have some data that is helping me understand that hypothesis in the first place or form it in the first place, then I'm going to do some user research and try a couple of things and see what works for people.

我认为，如果你将其视为产品经理创意过程的一部分，你会说，我有一个假设，我有一些数据可以帮助我首先理解该假设或首先形成它，然后我将进行一些用户研究并尝试一些事情，看看什么对人们有用。

Then I'm going to make sure that we have success metrics and that we know what we're looking for when we launch, then we're going to follow, et cetera.

然后我将确保我们有成功指标，并且我们知道我们在推出时要寻找什么，然后我们将遵循，等等。

So I think there's different times and places for all the different types of data collection that you can do.

因此，我认为您可以在不同的时间和地点进行不同类型的数据收集。

Maya Prohovnik: The other thing I would say is something that I have had to learn as a leader, especially as part of a larger organization, when we were a startup Anchor was like 20 people when we got acquired by Spotify.

Maya Prohovnik：我想说的另一件事是我作为领导者必须学习的东西，尤其是作为一个更大组织的一部分，当我们还是一家初创公司时，Anchor 被 Spotify 收购时只有 20 个人。

And by the way, Spotify is my first big tech company, so I've always been at startups, so I've learned a lot about that.

顺便说一句，Spotify 是我的第一家大型科技公司，所以我一直在初创公司工作，所以我学到了很多这方面的知识。

But when I was leading product at a startup, it's like we're a small team, we're really focused on moving quickly.

但当我在一家初创公司领导产品时，我们就像一个小团队，我们真正专注于快速发展。

There isn't a whole lot of stopping to ask what data is supporting this or it's just like we talked to some users and we're like, great, that's a problem.

没有太多人停下来询问哪些数据支持这一点，或者就像我们与一些用户交谈一样，我们说，太好了，这是一个问题。

We're just going to go and fix it.

我们要去修复它。

And I think at Spotify there's obviously at places like Spotify, I mean, large organizations, there's obviously a lot more people that you need to coordinate.

我认为在 Spotify，显然在像 Spotify 这样的地方，我的意思是，大型组织，显然有更多的人需要协调。

Maya Prohovnik: There's a lot of people you have to influence that aren't on your immediate team.

Maya Prohovnik：您必须影响很多人，但他们并不属于您的直接团队。

And so I think something that I've had to learn is that being gut driven isn't the same as just saying to people, I told you or I believe this, so you have to do it.

所以我认为我必须学习的是，直觉驱动并不等于只是对人们说，我告诉过你或者我相信这一点，所以你必须这样做。

There really is an art I think to balancing that.

我认为确实有一门艺术可以平衡这一点。

And I think that what I try to do is always still as objectively as possible explain why my gut is feeling that way.

我认为我所做的始终是尽可能客观地解释为什么我的直觉会有这种感觉。

So it's like you can refer back to your years of experience or other things that you've done that have been similar.

所以这就像你可以回顾你多年的经验或你做过的类似的事情。

You can talk about your experience as a user testing this stuff.

你可以谈谈你作为用户测试这个东西的经历。

You can bring in stories and anecdotes from users to help back it up.

您可以引入用户的故事和轶事来帮助支持它。

And so I have found that that works obviously a lot better.

所以我发现这显然效果更好。

Maya Prohovnik: And I think that in the times that either I have done this or I've seen other leaders do it, where they're just like, well, we're just going to do it this way even if you guys don't agree or if the data says something different, those projects are always immediately doomed from the beginning.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为，在我已经这样做或我看到其他领导者这样做的时代，他们就像，好吧，即使你们不同意或者数据说的不同，我们也会这样做，这些项目总是从一开始就注定会失败。

They're never going to work.

他们永远不会去工作。

You can't drag all these people through something that they don't believe in.

你不能让所有这些人经历他们不相信的事情。

So I think I would think of your gut actually as a type of data and I think it's a totally valid one and it's just I think you need to be clear that that's what you're working with, but then it should be taken as seriously as any other data point.

所以我想我会认为你的直觉实际上是一种数据，我认为这是一个完全有效的数据，只是我认为你需要清楚这就是你正在处理的内容，但它应该像任何其他数据点一样认真对待。

So I try and think of it that way where it's like this should all ideally work together.

所以我试着这样想，这样的情况应该完美地协同工作。

And obviously the more data you have and the more types of data you have, the more convincing you're going to be and the more right you're going to be.

显然，你拥有的数据越多，数据类型越多，你就越有说服力，你就越正确。

Maya Prohovnik: So I think it all helps.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我认为这一切都有帮助。

There were so many of these in the early days of Anchor because I don't even know, I don't think we had a data scientist until we were part of Spotify, so I think it was just engineers running queries.

Anchor 早期有很多这样的数据，因为我什至不知道，我认为在我们成为 Spotify 的一部分之前我们没有数据科学家，所以我认为这只是工程师在运行查询。

But there were a couple times where we had to move Anchor from 1.0 to 2.0 and then from 2.0 to 3.0, we did these big, I don't like to call them pivots, but sort of evolutions let's say, of our product or our strategy terminology also very important when you're trying to convince people of things.

但有几次我们不得不将 Anchor 从 1.0 移动到 2.0，然后从 2.0 移动到 3.0，我们做了这些大的事情，我不喜欢称它们为支点，但是当你试图说服人们相信事情时，我们的产品或我们的战略术语的某种演变也非常重要。

So when I was thinking about those big transitions for us as a team, I think both times we had these big moments with our teams where we had to get everyone on board with making these big changes.

因此，当我思考我们作为一个团队的那些重大转变时，我认为我们的团队两次都经历了这些重大时刻，我们必须让每个人都参与到做出这些重大改变中。

So with Anchor 1.0, I don't know if you remember, but it was actually similar to what Clubhouse I think just rebranded to more voice messaging and short form and more about connections between people.

所以对于 Anchor 1.0，我不知道你是否还记得，但它实际上与我认为的 Clubhouse 类似，只是重新命名为更多的语音消息和简短的形式以及更多关于人与人之间的联系。

Maya Prohovnik: And that was the first thing we ever launched and people loved it.

Maya Prohovnik：这是我们推出的第一个产品，人们很喜欢它。

People were very excited about it, the data was all good.

人们对此非常兴奋，数据都很好。

We had extremely retained users.

我们有非常留存的用户。

We anecdotally, we were hearing all this stuff from users all the time that they were staying up all night to use the app, people were meeting each other and falling in love and getting married on our platform, all of these really kind of magical things and we were seeing the user base was growing consistently.

有趣的是，我们一直从用户那里听到所有这些信息，他们熬夜使用这个应用程序，人们在我们的平台上相遇、坠入爱河、结婚，所有这些都是非常神奇的事情，我们看到用户群在持续增长。

But I think we had this feeling, and when I say, I mean, mostly Mike and I at the time, Mike was our CEO, that it just wasn't ever going to be big enough.

但我认为我们有这种感觉，当我说时，我的意思是，当时主要是迈克和我，迈克是我们的首席执行官，它永远不会足够大。

And so we had this really interesting moment where the users were all telling us, there's no problem.

所以我们经历了这个非常有趣的时刻，用户都告诉我们，没有问题。

We love this product.

我们喜欢这个产品。

They were using it every day, they were coming back.

他们每天都在使用它，他们会回来。

It was slowly growing and we were just like, this just isn't going to get us to where we need to be, our original goal had been we wanted to democratize audio.

它正在缓慢增长，我们就像，这不会让我们到达我们需要的地方，我们最初的目标是我们想要民主化音频。

Maya Prohovnik: We wanted to make it something where anyone could easily tell their story, and we were like, if we keep digging ourselves into this niche that a small number of people really, really love, that's great, but that's not really the mission that we sent out set out to solve.

Maya Prohovnik：我们希望让任何人都可以轻松讲述自己的故事，我们想，如果我们继续深入挖掘这个少数人真正非常喜欢的利基市场，那就太好了，但这并不是我们真正要解决的任务。

And so the 1.0 to 2.0 transition was I think actually pretty painful because for all of those people who had been invested in 1.0, 2.0 didn't work for them.

因此，我认为从 1.0 到 2.0 的过渡实际上非常痛苦，因为对于所有投资于 1.0 的人来说，2.0 并不适合他们。

2.0 was much more about content creation and making more of a radio station, and it was less about telling your personal story and close relationships and more about projecting and using different tools.

2.0 更多的是关于内容创作和制作更多的广播电台，而不是讲述你的个人故事和亲密关系，更多的是关于投影和使用不同的工具。

Anyway, so we made that call I think pretty much just on gut and it was like, this is a business decision.

不管怎样，所以我们做出了这个决定，我认为这完全是出于直觉，就像，这是一个商业决定。

This is where we think the next phase needs to be.

这就是我们认为下一阶段需要进行的地方。

Maya Prohovnik: When we built Anchor 2.0, it was a lot more like the tools that we wanted to use, even though it wasn't what the user base was asking for.

Maya Prohovnik：当我们构建 Anchor 2.0 时，它更像是我们想要使用的工具，尽管它不是用户群所要求的。

So I think that's one example of sometimes it's that whole users don't always know what to ask for, they don't always know what problems they need you to solve for them.

所以我认为这是一个例子，有时整个用户并不总是知道要问什么，他们并不总是知道需要你为他们解决什么问题。

And so I think you really have to be able to hear what's behind it or really even if the data is looking okay, think about if it's heading to where you need it to go.

因此，我认为您确实必须能够听到其背后的内容，或者即使数据看起来不错，也要考虑它是否正在前往您需要的地方。

Lenny: Before you move on, that's actually such an interesting story because it's so hard to have a product that's working that people love and decide to change it completely.

莱尼：在继续之前，这实际上是一个非常有趣的故事，因为很难有一个产品能够让人们喜欢并决定彻底改变它。

Many founders are probably stuck in this where they're just like, hey, this is working and we're feeling some fit.

许多创始人可能陷入困境，他们只是想，嘿，这很有效，我们感觉很合适。

Is there anything else you learned from that?

你还从中学到了什么吗？

Because that's a really interesting insight and it worked out in your case clearly.

因为这是一个非常有趣的见解，并且在您的案例中很明显地发挥了作用。

Maya Prohovnik: It absolutely worked out.

Maya Prohovnik：绝对成功。

I mean, I think it was a terrifying transition.

我的意思是，我认为这是一个可怕的转变。

Us at the time, it took us a few months to build a whole new app, it takes longer now, but the whole time we were building it, we were like, we weren't sure if it was a mistake and we would go back and forth and we would feel guilty when we were talking to our users about what they wanted us to be working on.

当时，我们花了几个月的时间来构建一个全新的应用程序，现在需要更长的时间，但在我们构建它的整个过程中，我们不确定这是否是一个错误，我们会来来回回，当我们与用户谈论他们希望我们做什么时，我们会感到内疚。

But I think it was one of those things where as soon as we launched 2.0, our numbers started shooting up and we started seeing more kinds of people were using it and people were suddenly using it in the way that we had always imagined as a replacement for the old school, very difficult to make traditional podcasts.

但我认为，一旦我们推出 2.0，我们的数字就开始飙升，我们开始看到更多类型的人在使用它，人们突然以我们一直想象的旧学校替代品的方式使用它，制作传统播客非常困难。

Maya Prohovnik: I don't know.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我不知道。

I guess the lesson is you have to be able to tell the signal through the noise, and even if you've got lots of vocal users asking for something, we used to have this rule, the 80/20 rule, where it's like you can't just build for that 20, I don't think we made this up by the way.

我想教训是你必须能够通过噪音辨别信号，即使你有很多有声的用户要求某些东西，我们曾经有这个规则，80/20 规则，就像你不能只为那 20 构建，我不认为我们顺便做了这个。

I think this is a common thing, but we'd always refer to it and say, we want to be building for the 80%, and even though the 20% are going to be more vocal, that's just going to get you deeper into that hole of that problem of you're not really building for everyone.

我认为这是一件很常见的事情，但我们总是提到它并说，我们希望为 80% 的人进行建设，尽管 20% 的人会更加直言不讳，但这只会让你更深地陷入问题的困境，因为你并不是真正为所有人而建设。

And I think particularly when you're trying to build a creative platform, you're trying to democratize something and your target user is everyone on the planet.

我认为，特别是当你试图建立一个创意平台时，你正在尝试使某些东西民主化，而你的目标用户是地球上的每个人。

I think you really have to be willing to kill your darlings and let things go when they're not getting where you need them to be.

我认为你真的必须愿意杀死你的宝贝，并在他们没有到达你需要的地方时让事情过去。

Lenny: That's probably the most common cases.

莱尼：这可能是最常见的情况。

Something is working, but it's not working incredibly well.

有些东西正在发挥作用，但效果并不好。

What do we do?

我们该怎么办？

And so that's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

I feel like the first thing you said there is really important of just we had a much bigger mission and vision, and even though this is working, this is never going to get there.

我觉得你说的第一件事非常重要，我们有一个更大的使命和愿景，尽管这正在发挥作用，但永远不会实现。

There's no path to building a massive business.

没有办法建立一个庞大的企业。

Maya Prohovnik: I do think that's so important, and I give a lot of credit to Mike and our co-founders.

Maya Prohovnik：我确实认为这非常重要，我非常感谢 Mike 和我们的联合创始人。

I think they really knew what they wanted to do when they started the company and they were very firm on that and never varied that throughout the years throughout the acquisition.

我认为他们在创办公司时就知道自己想做什么，并且对此非常坚定，在整个收购过程中从未改变过这一点。

And so I do think not everyone's goal is to build a massive multi-billion dollar world changing business, that's okay if that's not your goal, but if that is your goal, you have to stick to it and it's really hard, but you have to keep pivoting to get to where you want to be.

所以我确实认为并不是每个人的目标都是建立一个巨大的数十亿美元的改变世界的业务，如果这不是你的目标，那也没关系，但如果这是你的目标，你必须坚持下去，这真的很难，但你必须不断转向才能到达你想要的地方。

Lenny: Kill your darlings.

莱尼：杀了你的宝贝们。

I love that phrase, I use it all the time.

我喜欢这句话，我一直用它。

I think you had a second example.

我想你还有第二个例子。

I have a couple other questions of Anchor, but did you want to share another example?

我还有几个关于 Anchor 的问题，但您想分享另一个例子吗？

Maya Prohovnik: Sure, I can just quickly, my second example was, so we actually had to do it again.

Maya Prohovnik：当然，我可以很快，我的第二个例子是，所以我们实际上不得不再做一次。

So we went from Anchor 1.0 to 2.0, we were like, that was totally the right call.

所以我们从 Anchor 1.0 升级到 2.0，我们认为，这完全是正确的选择。

And then Anchor 2.0, we were still in this phase where we would always joke about it because people would be like, "Oh, it's kind of like making a podcast." And we would be like, it's not a podcast because we're trying to be bigger than podcasts.

然后是 Anchor 2.0，我们还处于这个阶段，我们总是拿它开玩笑，因为人们会说，“哦，这有点像制作播客。”我们会说，这不是播客，因为我们正在努力超越播客。

Because we were at the time, 2015, there were still so few people podcasting, it was still so hard to do.

因为当时是2015年，做播客的人还很少，所以做起来还是很难。

And so we originally were really stuck on this idea that podcasting was going to be limiting and that we wanted to be the next thing.

因此，我们最初确实坚持这样一个想法，即播客将受到限制，而我们希望成为下一个事物。

In the early days of Anchor, we had all this nautical terminology, so we would call them waves and I don't remember what else, but we had cute nautical terms for everything we were trying to resist podcast and podcaster and those things.

在 Anchor 的早期，我们有所有这些航海术语，所以我们称它们为波浪，我不记得还有什么，但我们对我们试图抵制播客和播客之类的一切都有可爱的航海术语。

Maya Prohovnik: And when we launched Anchor 2.0, we started getting all of this really great traction and the number one feature requests that we got from people is they were like, great, I love using these tools and then I want to export it as a podcast and publish it and get people listening that way.

Maya Prohovnik：当我们推出 Anchor 2.0 时，我们开始获得所有这些真正巨大的吸引力，我们从人们那里得到的第一个功能请求是他们说，太棒了，我喜欢使用这些工具，然后我想将其导出为播客并发布并让人们以这种方式收听。

And we resisted it for probably, I don't know, six months or something and we were like, absolutely not, that's not what we're doing.

我们抵制了它，我不知道，大概有六个月之类的时间，我们说，绝对不是，那不是我们正在做的事情。

And I think that one was such an interesting lesson because we had just learned that we did the right thing by not listening to our users.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的教训，因为我们刚刚了解到，我们通过不倾听用户的声音做了正确的事情。

So for a while we dug in and we were like, that's not the direction we're going in, they don't know what they actually want.

所以有一段时间我们深入研究，我们觉得，这不是我们前进的方向，他们不知道自己真正想要什么。

And then when we decided, I think we started with like, oh, we'll do a little test and let people export us podcasts and see what happens.

然后当我们决定时，我想我们一开始就这样，哦，我们会做一个小测试，让人们向我们导出播客，看看会发生什么。

Maya Prohovnik: And when we look back at our data, that's the moment when we saw the beginning of that hockey stick growth where it's like we had been growing, we had been doing well, and then you zoom out and you're like, okay, that was very clearly the thing we were missing.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：当我们回顾我们的数据时，就在那时我们看到了曲棍球棒增长的开始，就好像我们一直在增长，我们一直做得很好，然后你缩小范围，你会觉得，好吧，这显然是我们所缺少的东西。

Yet again, we had to stop what we were doing, we rebuilt the entire app, we built it around RSS and podcasting and being able to export.

再一次，我们不得不停止我们正在做的事情，我们重建了整个应用程序，我们围绕 RSS 和播客构建它并能够导出。

And we actually did some really cool things to make it really easy for people to publish their podcast everywhere.

事实上，我们做了一些非常酷的事情，让人们可以轻松地在任何地方发布他们的播客。

So I think that was really the moment that it took off.

所以我认为那确实是它起飞的时刻。

And I think it's so interesting putting those two things together because it was the opposite thing the second time that we had to give up on a piece of what we had thought was so inherently true about our business.

我认为将这两件事放在一起非常有趣，因为第二次我们不得不放弃我们认为对我们的业务本质上如此正确的部分，这是相反的事情。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I don't know what lesson to tell people to take away from that other than I think you have to just stay, especially in a startup mentality, you have to stay willing to be flexible and take in new information and new data points as your product matures and as your user base changes, there's going to be new things that you learn that are going to change how you think about it.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我不知道该告诉人们从中吸取什么教训，除了我认为你必须留下来，特别是在初创公司的心态中，你必须保持灵活性，随着你的产品的成熟和用户群的变化，你必须保持灵活性并接受新的信息和新的数据点，你会学到一些新的东西，这些东西会改变你的想法。

And I think again, the one thing that was unwavering for us was our mission and everything else was mutable for us where we were like, whatever we need to do to get there will work.

我再次想到，对我们来说坚定不移的一件事是我们的使命，而其他一切对我们来说都是可变的，无论我们需要做什么才能实现目标。

And I do think looking back, it's astonishing how brave we were that we kept finding some product market fit and being like, nope, that's not enough.

我确实认为回顾过去，我们是多么勇敢，我们一直在寻找一些适合市场的产品，但我们却说，不，这还不够。

And then moving to the next thing.

然后继续下一件事。

And I think that obviously worked out really well for us and meant that we were able to do what we set out to do and really democratize the medium and make things a lot easier for a lot more people.

我认为这显然对我们来说非常有效，意味着我们能够做我们打算做的事情，真正实现媒体民主化，让更多人的事情变得更容易。

Lenny: I think another lesson there is just try stuff.

莱尼：我认为另一个教训就是尝试一些东西。

Like you said, you tried this export thing, let's just see what happens.

就像你说的，你尝试过导出，让我们看看会发生什么。

No, we don't think this is where we need to go, but let's just try it and maybe it'll work.

不，我们认为这不是我们需要去的地方，但让我们尝试一下，也许它会起作用。

And clearly that became the core of the product and platform.

显然，这成为了产品和平台的核心。

Maya Prohovnik: Totally.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：完全可以。

And also, you never know which of those tiny product changes are going to end up being this existential moment for your business.

而且，你永远不知道那些微小的产品变化中的哪一个最终会成为你的企业的生存时刻。

You really have to keep your eyes open and be ready for that to happen anytime, especially when you're still trying to figure out where your place is going to be.

你真的必须睁大眼睛，做好随时发生这种情况的准备，尤其是当你还在试图弄清楚你的位置在哪里时。

Lenny: You mentioned there was this feature that made it easy to distribute your podcast, and this touches on a question that actually asked Mike Mignano, the CEO of anchor what to ask you.

莱尼：您提到有一个功能可以让您轻松分发播客，这涉及到主播首席执行官迈克·米尼亚诺 (Mike Mignano) 实际要问您什么的问题。

And he's like, ask her about the story of how you made that actually possible to distribute the podcast to platforms, and it ended up being a very unscalable solution.

他就像，问她关于如何将播客分发到平台的故事，最终成为一个非常不可扩展的解决方案。

Maya Prohovnik: One of our principles from the very early days of Anchor was build things that don't scale, where we were like, we're a ridiculously tiny team.

Maya Prohovnik：从 Anchor 成立之初起，我们的原则之一就是构建不可扩展的东西，我们就像是一个小得可笑的团队。

We're trying to do this really big thing.

我们正在努力做这件非常大的事情。

We had raised very little money, and so we were always just trying to figure out how can we hack into whatever growth we're trying to make happen.

我们筹集的资金很少，因此我们总是想弄清楚如何才能实现我们想要实现的增长。

So when it turned out that people wanted to distribute their podcasts everywhere, it's gotten a little bit easier.

因此，当人们发现人们想要将他们的播客分发到任何地方时，事情就变得容易了一些。

But at the time, I'm sure you remember what podcast distribution was like, where it's like there's all of these different podcast platforms you have to manually distribute to all of them.

但当时，我相信您还记得播客分发是什么样的，就像有所有这些不同的播客平台，您必须手动分发给所有这些平台。

Apple Podcasts in particular can be really difficult for people who aren't tech-savvy because there's this whole, you have to prove that you own your RSS feed, you have to know what an RSS feed is.

Apple 播客对于不懂技术的人来说尤其困难，因为整个过程中，你必须证明你拥有你的 RSS 提要，你必须知道什么是 RSS 提要。

Maya Prohovnik: You have to sometimes deal with 301 redirects.

Maya Prohovnik：有时您必须处理 301 重定向。

There's just all this stuff that's deeply technical in a way that we were just like it doesn't need to be.

所有这些东西都具有很强的技术性，但我们认为它们不需要如此。

And so one of the steps there was to submit your podcast to Apple Podcasts, you had to have an Apple ID, and there are a lot of people in the world who don't have iPhones, and so we're building for everybody.

步骤之一就是将你的播客提交到 Apple Podcasts，你必须有一个 Apple ID，而世界上有很多人没有 iPhone，所以我们正在为每个人打造。

So we were like, how can we reduce that friction?

所以我们想，我们怎样才能减少这种摩擦呢？

We were obsessed with reducing friction, this was our constant battle.

我们痴迷于减少摩擦，这是我们持续不断的战斗。

And so we had this idea, we hired a couple of college interns and we brought them in and we were like, people are going to push this magical one button in the Anchor app and they're going to say, I want to distribute my podcast, and your job is going to be to do all that same manual stuff manually, but to them it's going to feel magical and it happened automatically.

所以我们有了这个想法，我们雇佣了几个大学实习生，我们把他们带进来，我们就像，人们会在 Anchor 应用程序中按下这个神奇的按钮，他们会说，我想分发我的播客，而你的工作将是手动完成所有相同的手动工作，但对他们来说，这会感觉很神奇，而且它会自动发生。

I still don't know how many people know this.

我还不知道有多少人知道这一点。

Maya Prohovnik: I think people think that we had some secret backdoor deal with Apple for distribution, but we just had college students making Apple podcast accounts and then submitting hundreds of thousands of podcasts through these accounts.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为人们认为我们与苹果有一些秘密的后门协议进行分发，但我们只是让大学生创建苹果播客帐户，然后通过这些帐户提交数十万个播客。

And that resulted in lots of interesting technical and relationship situations.

这导致了许多有趣的技术和关系情况。

It was a really interesting thing, and eventually that didn't scale, eventually we stopped doing that, obviously, but I think that is such a cool example of the importance of how you're packaging what you're offering to people where if we had said you request distribution and we'll have one of our team members get back to you in three days and let you know when you're on Apple Podcasts, that doesn't feel very magical or it's really saving you any time.

这是一件非常有趣的事情，最终没有扩大规模，最终我们停止了这样做，显然，但我认为这是一个很酷的例子，说明了如何包装你向人们提供的内容的重要性，如果我们说你请求分发，我们的团队成员会在三天内回复你，并让你知道你何时在苹果播客上，这感觉不是很神奇，或者它真的可以节省你的时间。

If all you see as a user is you're hitting a button and then 24 hours later you're somehow magically on Apple Podcasts, that was so much easier than manual distribution was at the time.

如果作为用户，您看到的只是按下一个按钮，然后 24 小时后您就神奇地进入了 Apple Podcast，这比当时的手动分发要容易得多。

Maya Prohovnik: And I think that was a really big part of why we got so much hosting market share so quickly because it was such an insane benefit over the other platforms which otherwise had been commoditized at that point.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为这就是为什么我们这么快就获得如此多的托管市场份额的一个重要原因，因为与当时已经商品化的其他平台相比，这是一个疯狂的好处。

So, it's funny now to think back on that, but I think it's also related to we were so good at being willing to humor what seemed like stupid ideas and try them.

所以，现在回想起来很有趣，但我认为这也与我们非常愿意幽默那些看似愚蠢的想法并尝试它们有关。

And so that is something that I definitely recommend to product people is let yourself have the silly ideas we always talked about yes and when someone has an idea, how can you build on it and think about how it might work instead of saying, no, that can't work because, and so we had a number of those things where it was like nobody understood how we were doing things so differently, and it was just because we weren't afraid to do the silly unscalable thing for a while.

因此，我绝对向产品人员推荐的一点是，让自己拥有我们总是谈论的愚蠢想法，是的，当有人有一个想法时，你如何在它的基础上构建并思考它如何工作，而不是说，不，这行不通，因为，所以我们有很多这样的事情，就像没有人理解我们如何以如此不同的方式做事，这只是因为我们不害怕做一段时间里愚蠢的、不可扩展的事情。

Lenny: I love that story.

莱尼：我喜欢这个故事。

Touches on two things, one is I was just doing an interview around how to drive word to mouth growth and make that a big driver of your growth.

涉及两件事，一是我刚刚进行了一次采访，主题是如何推动口碑增长并使其成为你成长的重要推动力。

And the main message there is just make something remarkable and knock people's socks off that they're just like, oh wow, this is crazy, I'm going to share it with my friend.

主要信息就是做出一些非凡的事情，让人们大吃一惊，他们会说，哇，这太疯狂了，我要和我的朋友分享。

And that's such a good example of that where everyone's like, wow, that was easy, I'm going to tell all my other friends that are launching podcasts.

这是一个很好的例子，每个人都会说，哇，这很容易，我要告诉所有其他正在推出播客的朋友。

The other is, I wonder just how much of tech is built off of college interns, the beginnings of companies or how important college interns are to technology and innovation.

另一个问题是，我想知道有多少技术是由大学实习生、公司的创立建立的，或者大学实习生对技术和创新有多重要。

It feels like there's always an intern story.

感觉总有一个实习生的故事。

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah, I know.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的，我知道。

I think they must be.

我想他们一定是。

And for the record, we paid them very well, these were not unpaid interns, just to be clear.

郑重声明，我们给他们的工资很高，需要澄清的是，这些并不是无薪实习生。

But no, I think it is amazing, and I think it was also such a cool opportunity.

但不，我认为这太棒了，而且我认为这也是一个很酷的机会。

One of those interns actually is still a PM on my team today.

其中一名实习生实际上至今仍然是我团队的产品经理。

She ended up converting a full-time after she graduated.

毕业后，她最终转为全职。

And I remember I had a lot of cool college internships and it's such a cool way to get exposure to industries that you otherwise wouldn't get to.

我记得我有过很多很酷的大学实习机会，这是一种很酷的方式来接触你本来无法接触到的行业。

So I would definitely recommend that college kids start with, it's okay if your first job is like a repetitive, not very exciting thing.

所以我肯定会建议大学生开始，如果你的第一份工作是重复的、不是很令人兴奋的事情，那也没关系。

If you do a good job, it will lead to something very exciting maybe.

如果你做得好，也许会带来一些非常令人兴奋的事情。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost-efficient way.

想象一下，您可以找到所有潜在客户并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。

If you're a B2B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.

如果您从事 B2B 业务，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。

LinkedIn ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results, and reach your customers in a respectful environment.

LinkedIn 广告可让您建立正确的关系、推动成果并在相互尊重的环境中接触客户。

Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census, are LinkedIn success stories.

我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。

Census had a 10x increase in pipeline with a LinkedIn startup team for Webflow after ramping up on LinkedIn and Q4, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.

在 LinkedIn 和第四季度加大力度后，Census 的 Webflow 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍，他们拥有迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。

With LinkedIn ads you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs and over 10 million C-level executives.

通过 LinkedIn 广告，您可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员和超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。

You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.

您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。

In tech, LinkedIn generated two to 5x higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.

在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出两到五倍。

Lenny: Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.

Lenny：LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，您将与尊重您所经营的 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作，使 B2B 营销尽其所能，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。

Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny to claim your credit.

只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny 即可领取您的积分。

That's linkedin.com/podlenny.

那是 linkedin.com/podlenny。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

So we've been talking about Anchor and I think what's really interesting about Anchor is it's one of the very rare success stories of an acquisition working out incredibly well.

所以我们一直在谈论 Anchor，我认为 Anchor 真正有趣的是，它是非常罕见的成功收购案例之一，而且效果非常好。

It was a small startup now powering two thirds of all new podcasts.

这是一家小型初创公司，现在为三分之二的新播客提供动力。

It's pretty insane.

这太疯狂了。

So I want to spend a little time on just what worked in making that possible.

所以我想花一点时间来讨论如何使这一切成为可能。

So let me ask first around the integration piece, just how you integrated successfully, and then I want to talk about just operationalizing and making it continue running successfully.

因此，让我首先询问集成部分，您是如何成功集成的，然后我想谈谈操作并使其继续成功运行。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So on the first piece, just what did you do right to integrate Anchor into Spotify to make it effective and continue working?

那么，在第一部分中，您到底做了什么正确的事情，将 Anchor 集成到 Spotify 中，以使其有效并继续工作？

Maya Prohovnik: I think it's a combination of luck and hard work because Spotify is genuinely an amazing company.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为这是运气和努力的结合，因为 Spotify 确实是一家了不起的公司。

I mean, you've met now a bunch of people who I work with at Spotify, including my boss, Gustav.

我的意思是，你现在已经认识了很多我在 Spotify 共事的人，包括我的老板古斯塔夫。

It's an incredible company.

这是一家令人难以置信的公司。

They're Swedish.

他们是瑞典人。

So just their mindset about everything in the first place is amazing.

所以他们对一切事情的心态首先是令人惊奇的。

But also, I have been so impressed that they are the type of company that can still move quickly and make really big strategic decisions and strategic shifts.

而且，令我印象深刻的是，他们是那种仍然能够快速行动并做出真正重大战略决策和战略转变的公司。

It never feels like they're slowing down.

从来没有感觉他们放慢了脚步。

And so I think our way of working worked with them.

所以我认为我们的工作方式对他们很有效。

And then I think the other thing that we had to our benefit was they really saw the same vision that we had.

然后我认为我们受益的另一件事是他们确实看到了与我们相同的愿景。

So it was like they also wanted to change podcasting and make it more democratized and make it more two-way and bring it into the future.

所以他们好像也想改变播客，使其更加民主化，使其更加双向，并将其带入未来。

Maya Prohovnik: And it was so interesting because when we started talking to them, both of us had this chicken or egg marketplace problem where we had this critical mass of creators.

Maya Prohovnik：这很有趣，因为当我们开始与他们交谈时，我们都遇到了鸡或蛋市场问题，我们拥有大量的创作者。

They had a critical mass at that point of consumers, but if you don't have both on the same place, then you're still stuck with the limitations of RSS feeds.

它们在当时已经拥有了足够的消费者，但如果您没有将两者集中在同一个地方，那么您仍然会受到 RSS 提要的限制。

And so I think we were both coming at the acquisition with the same frustration just from two different angles.

因此，我认为我们在收购时都从两个不同的角度感受到了同样的挫败感。

And so both of us really saw that benefit in joining up.

所以我们俩都真正看到了加入的好处。

And so I think one of the big ways we were lucky is that what I've seen happen in a lot of acquisitions is you have an idea of what you're getting acquired for and you get excited and really attached to that vision, and then when that vision doesn't end up fitting into the company strategy, there's nowhere else to go.

所以我认为我们很幸运的一个重要原因是，我在很多收购中看到的情况是，你知道自己被收购的目的是什么，你会感到兴奋并真正依恋这个愿景，然后当这个愿景最终不符合公司战略时，你就无处可去。

Maya Prohovnik: And I think in a lot of ways Anchor did really well fit into Spotify's culture and their roadmap, but there were many things that changed around that initial vision.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为 Anchor 在很多方面都非常适合 Spotify 的文化和路线图，但围绕最初的愿景有很多事情发生了变化。

And I think we were really good at making sure that we stayed valuable to Spotify.

我认为我们非常擅长确保我们对 Spotify 保持价值。

That was one of our goals when we got acquired where we were like, we're tiny startup people, and we're like, we're not going to get lost in this big sea.

当我们被收购时，这是我们的目标之一，我们是小型初创公司，我们不会在这片大海中迷失方向。

When we came in, it was like we were very vocal about everything that we were doing, we did lots of internal marketing and made sure people were excited.

当我们进来时，我们对所做的一切都非常直言不讳，我们做了很多内部营销并确保人们感到兴奋。

We built a lot of really strong relationships.

我们建立了很多非常牢固的关系。

We made sure that every team at Spotify knew about us and what we were doing.

我们确保 Spotify 的每个团队都了解我们以及我们在做什么。

We were constantly asking how we could help other teams.

我们不断询问如何帮助其他团队。

And when the strategy shifted, which it has dozens of times since we've gotten acquired almost five years ago, not like we just blindly followed, but we were always willing to get excited about whatever the next thing was and willing to be helpful and figure out how to make that work.

当战略发生变化时，自从我们近五年前被收购以来，这种情况已经发生了几十次，这不像我们只是盲目跟随，但我们总是愿意对接下来发生的事情感到兴奋，并愿意提供帮助并弄清楚如何使其发挥作用。

Maya Prohovnik: And I think it actually goes back to the sticking to the mission in the first place where Spotify and we want podcasting to be able to be a huge business for the industry.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为这实际上可以追溯到对使命的坚持，Spotify 和我们希望播客能够成为该行业的一项巨大业务。

We think it's been held back by a lot of things for a long time.

我们认为它长期以来一直受到很多因素的阻碍。

And so we've had various hypotheses about how we can get there and we try things and if something doesn't work, we go onto the next thing.

因此，我们对如何实现这一目标有各种假设，我们会尝试一些事情，如果某件事不起作用，我们就会继续下一件事。

But that goal hasn't really changed.

但这个目标并没有真正改变。

Lenny: That makes a lot of sense.

莱尼：这很有道理。

And I love the idea of just staying excited about what is happening.

我喜欢对正在发生的事情保持兴奋的想法。

I think a lot of founders join and they're like, "Oh, it's so annoying to work in this big company." "Oh man, we have this original plan, it's just not happening." And I think even if you're probably not, even if you're not excited, I think it's effective to communicate that you're excited and be on board and then shift things in what direction you think maybe needs to go instead.

我认为很多创始人加入后都会说，“哦，在这家大公司工作真是太烦人了。” “天哪，我们有这个最初的计划，只是没有发生。”我认为，即使你可能不兴奋，即使你不兴奋，我认为传达你很兴奋并参与进来，然后将事情转向你认为可能需要发展的方向是有效的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

And then in terms of operating within Spotify, from what I understand, your team is still very startupy and there's this really fast moving mentality.

然后就 Spotify 内部的运营而言，据我了解，你们的团队仍然非常初创，并且有一种快速变化的心态。

What have you learned and how do you do that?

你学到了什么以及如何做到这一点？

How do you make that happen within a larger company?

在一家大公司里，你如何做到这一点？

Maya Prohovnik: We've definitely slowed down a little, I will say.

Maya Prohovnik：我想说，我们确实放慢了一点速度。

I'm always joking about when we first got acquired, I remember we had to do this spreadsheet outlining our roadmap and estimate are things like small, extra large, whatever, and Spotify's definition of small with something like a quarter.

我总是开玩笑说，当我们第一次被收购时，我记得我们必须做这个电子表格，概述我们的路线图，并估计诸如小型、特大号之类的东西，以及 Spotify 对小型的定义，比如四分之一。

And I was like, we've never built anything that took more than three months.

我当时想，我们从来没有建造过任何需要超过三个月的时间的东西。

And now it's like now we build lots of things to take more than three months.

现在我们建造很多东西需要三个多月的时间。

But the first thing that comes to mind, so when we were a startup, one of the first things we did when we were only a few people, we decided what our core values were going to be.

但首先想到的是，当我们还是一家初创公司时，当我们只有几个人时，我们做的第一件事之一就是决定我们的核心价值观是什么。

And I think they maybe very trivially have changed over the years, but we essentially still have the same four core values that we decided on seven or eight years ago now.

我认为这些年来它们可能发生了非常微小的变化，但我们基本上仍然拥有七八年前决定的相同的四个核心价值观。

And when we got acquired, we had a conversation with our team where we said, we're going to of course embrace Spotify's culture and Spotify's core values, but we're not going to forget who we are as a team.

当我们被收购时，我们与我们的团队进行了一次对话，我们说，我们当然会接受 Spotify 的文化和 Spotify 的核心价值观，但我们不会忘记我们作为一个团队是谁。

Maya Prohovnik: And I think part of what really...

Maya Prohovnik：我认为真正的一部分......

And one of our core values by the way, is move fast.

顺便说一句，我们的核心价值观之一就是快速行动。

So that's something that's very deep within our DNA.

所以这是我们 DNA 深处的东西。

But I think one of the things that helped with that is Daniel Eck, when we got acquired, came and talked to our team, which was so cool and so motivational.

但我认为对此有所帮助的事情之一是丹尼尔·埃克（Daniel Eck），当我们被收购时，他来与我们的团队交谈，这非常酷，也非常激励人心。

And one of the things he said to us was, we had a reputation at the time for moving very quickly, even compared to other startups.

他对我们说的一件事是，我们当时以行动迅速而闻名，即使与其他初创公司相比也是如此。

We were shipping a new feature every two weeks, it was insane.

我们每两周发布一个新功能，这太疯狂了。

And Daniel said to us, not only do I want you to not move slower, that's part of why we're acquiring you so that you can move quickly.

丹尼尔对我们说，我不仅希望你们不要放慢脚步，这也是我们收购你们以便你们能够快速行动的部分原因。

But he said, I also want you to help me teach the rest of Spotify how to move more quickly, and I found that so motivating.

但他说，我还希望你能帮助我教 Spotify 的其他成员如何更快地行动，我发现这非常激励人心。

Maya Prohovnik: Because I think I definitely had that feeling going from startup to larger organization where I had this fear that it was just going to be bureaucracy and things moving so slowly.

Maya Prohovnik：因为我认为从初创公司到更大的组织，我确实有这种感觉，我担心这只会是官僚主义，事情进展如此缓慢。

And I really loved that.

我真的很喜欢那个。

That was one of his goals was that he was like, I want to make sure Spotify also grew really quickly and he was trying to figure out how to help them keep moving as quickly as they used to.

他的目标之一是，我想确保 Spotify 也能快速增长，他试图找出如何帮助他们像以前一样快速发展。

And so I think that's something that I really took to heart and that I've continued to remind my team of even to this day where I think of that as part of my job here to help people think about how we can move quickly and what really matters.

因此，我认为这是我真正牢记在心的事情，直到今天我仍继续提醒我的团队，我认为这是我在这里工作的一部分，帮助人们思考我们如何快速行动以及真正重要的事情。

And I think at any large organization, there's obviously a lot more complexities, there's a lot more stakeholders.

我认为在任何大型组织中，显然都有更多的复杂性，有更多的利益相关者。

Maya Prohovnik: So to some extent it's necessary to slow down and be thoughtful.

Maya Prohovnik：所以在某种程度上有必要放慢脚步并深思熟虑。

But I think the things that I always try to push people on is the unnecessary things that slow you down.

但我认为我总是试图推动人们做的事情是那些让你放慢脚步的不必要的事情。

So I think that's what we spend a lot of time on, both within our team and when we're collaborating with other teams at Spotify because we work with basically everyone at this point.

因此，我认为这就是我们在团队内部以及与 Spotify 的其他团队合作时花费大量时间的原因，因为此时我们基本上与每个人一起工作。

So I think that was really cool that he gave us that mission when we joined.

所以我认为当我们加入时他给了我们这个使命，这真的很酷。

Lenny: On that note, is there anything that has been a real challenge or become really annoying?

莱尼：关于这一点，有什么是真正的挑战或变得非常烦人吗？

Just real talk about the flip side of that.

只是真正谈论它的另一面。

Everyone's always like, "Oh, it's all working out great." Is there anything you could share that's just like, "Oh wow, that was really hard and we overcame it, or a real challenge that we didn't expect?"

每个人总是会说，“哦，一切都很顺利。”有什么可以分享的，就像“哦哇，这真的很难，我们克服了它，或者是我们没有预料到的真正挑战？”

Maya Prohovnik: I think that the downside of Daniel's advice, so one of the things he said to us, he was literally say no to all the meetings.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为丹尼尔的建议有缺点，所以他对我们说的一件事是，他实际上对所有会议说不。

You're going to get invited to all these off sites and meetings and everyone's going to want to meet you guys and they're going to want you to come to all of these events and whatever.

你会被邀请参加所有这些场外会议和会议，每个人都想见到你们，他们会希望你参加所有这些活动等等。

And he was like, just keep being Anchor.

他说，继续当主播吧。

Just keep doing what you're doing for at least the next year.

至少在明年继续做你正在做的事情。

Don't worry about what Spotify's doing.

不用担心 Spotify 在做什么。

And on the one hand, of course, we loved that as startup people we're like, cool, we're going to get to stay us within this larger organization.

当然，一方面，我们喜欢作为初创公司的人，我们很酷，我们将把我们留在这个更大的组织中。

But the downside that we didn't really realize until a year later was that we weren't really able to build relationships.

但直到一年后我们才真正意识到的缺点是我们无法真正建立关系。

We had some culture problems where our team started to feel like because they weren't part of Spotify, they had some existential, they didn't feel attached to the work that we were doing.

我们遇到了一些文化问题，我们的团队开始觉得他们不是 Spotify 的一部分，他们有一些存在感，他们对我们所做的工作没有依恋感。

Maya Prohovnik: And so for a year we operated on our own.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我们自己运营了一年。

We moved really quickly, we were able to get a lot done, but then I think our next phase had to be really deeply incorporating into Spotify.

我们行动得非常快，我们能够完成很多工作，但我认为我们的下一阶段必须真正深入地融入 Spotify。

And so we stopped calling our team Anchor internally, we started collaborating more with other teams.

因此，我们不再在内部称呼我们的团队为 Anchor，而是开始与其他团队进行更多合作。

And I think that is the necessary trade-off is the more deeply you're embedded, the slower things are going to go.

我认为这是必要的权衡，你嵌入得越深，事情就会进展得越慢。

But I think that has been really amazing for making sure that our team actually felt like a part of the larger mission that Spotify was doing.

但我认为这确实令人惊奇，因为我们确保我们的团队真正感受到 Spotify 正在执行的更大使命的一部分。

And the one other thing I'll say that I found pretty striking.

我要说的另一件事是我发现非常引人注目的。

So, Spotify, as you know, did a lot of podcast acquisitions soon after the Anchor one.

所以，正如你所知，Spotify 在 Anchor 收购之后不久就进行了大量的播客收购。

And so I got to know a lot of the other founders and early employees who have been acquired by Spotify and something that I've found with them and just with other acquired founders who I've talked to since, I don't know, I feel like people don't talk about this enough publicly.

因此，我认识了很多被 Spotify 收购的其他创始人和早期员工，我从他们身上发现了一些东西，从那以后我就和其他被收购的创始人交谈过，我不知道，我觉得人们没有足够公开地谈论这个问题。

Maya Prohovnik: Maybe people are somewhere and I just haven't seen it.

Maya Prohovnik：也许有人就在某个地方，只是我没看到而已。

I think that people who get acquired, especially founders, actually go through a relatively deep depression and existential crisis after getting acquired.

我认为被收购的人，尤其是创始人，被收购后其实经历了比较深的抑郁和生存危机。

And I never would've thought, when you're talking to people about getting acquired, it sounds like such an obvious positive.

我从来没有想到，当你和人们谈论被收购时，这听起来是一个如此明显的积极因素。

Like you said, it's like this amazing positive exit and it was objectively so good for our team and for us and for our users, and I think for the industry.

就像你说的，这就像一次令人惊奇的积极退出，客观上对我们的团队、我们、我们的用户以及我认为对整个行业来说都是如此。

And I personally did not expect to go through that.

我个人并没有想到会经历这些。

Because I was like of course you want an exit, that's what you're working towards that whole time that you're a startup.

因为我想，你当然想要退出，这就是你在创业期间一直在努力的方向。

And I've talked to a lot of these founders and I think it is a process I think that everyone has to go through because either you decide I'm going to stay here and I'm going to do this for a long time and I can make this work for me.

我和很多这样的创始人谈过，我认为这是每个人都必须经历的过程，因为要么你决定我要留在这里，我要这样做很长一段时间，我可以让这个工作为我工作。

Maya Prohovnik: Or you're like, I'm just a startup founder and this doesn't really work for me and I'm going to go do my next thing.

Maya Prohovnik：或者你会说，我只是一名初创公司创始人，这对我来说并不真正有效，我要去做我的下一件事。

And so I think to some extent some of the things we were talking about, I think do help shake out whether people actually want to make those investments and figure out how to make things work at a big company.

因此，我认为在某种程度上，我们正在讨论的一些事情确实有助于弄清楚人们是否真的愿意进行这些投资，并弄清楚如何让事情在大公司发挥作用。

But I think the other thing that I've found is just I think there isn't enough support for that transition.

但我认为我发现的另一件事是我认为这种转变没有足够的支持。

And I think that for me, I've definitely landed on the side of, I love working at Spotify.

我认为对我来说，我绝对站在我这一边，我喜欢在 Spotify 工作。

I now am so excited to be part of a large organization and building things at this scale, but I really would've loved to been able to talk to someone about it or understand that there were other people going through that kind of thing.

我现在很高兴能够成为一个大型组织的一部分并以这种规模构建事物，但我真的很想能够与某人谈论这件事或了解还有其他人正在经历这种事情。

Maya Prohovnik: So I don't know if you want an example of how it's not all rainbows and sunshine, I definitely think there were some dark times there and I've since learned everyone goes through that just because I think just by definition, all the reasons that you start a company, that means your personality is someone who wants to be having that direct impact and having your own ownership and being able to make things move quickly, and that is just so different once you join a large organization.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：所以我不知道你是否想要一个例子来说明世界并不全是彩虹和阳光，我确实认为那里有一些黑暗的时期，从那以后我了解到每个人都经历过这些，只是因为我认为根据定义，你创办一家公司的所有原因，这意味着你的个性是一个想要产生直接影响、拥有自己的所有权并能够让事情快速发展的人，一旦你加入一个大组织，那就完全不同了。

Lenny: Yeah, and those are amazing examples.

莱尼：是的，这些都是很棒的例子。

I think what's interesting with startup life is eventually if things work out well, you'll either end up working for a larger company, that's a likely scenario if things tip go great or you're running a public company, which is also extremely painful and stressful.

我认为创业生活的有趣之处在于，如果事情进展顺利，你最终要么会为一家更大的公司工作，如果事情进展顺利，这可能是一种情况，或者你正在经营一家上市公司，这也是极其痛苦和压力的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So, the paths are hard no matter what you end up doing, as much as you love that startup time.

所以，无论你最终做什么，这条路都是艰难的，尽管你很喜欢创业的时光。

I actually went through the same thing when we sold our company to Airbnb.

事实上，当我们把公司卖给 Airbnb 时，我也经历过同样的事情。

I was just like, man, I had this life goal of starting a company and now I've done it and now what do I do?

我当时想，伙计，我的人生目标是创办一家公司，现在我已经做到了，现在我该怎么办？

And it was just like, huh, okay, I guess I got to figure it out.

就像，嗯，好吧，我想我必须弄清楚。

Maya Prohovnik: Right?

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：对吗？

It's like, who am I?

就像，我是谁？

And I think the thing that I think for me, and it sounds similar to you, I think I didn't realize how much value I put in the actual day-to-day of survival that comes with being part of a startup.

我认为我所想的事情，听起来和你很相似，我想我没有意识到，作为初创公司的一部分，我在实际的日常生存中投入了多少价值。

That becomes almost your reason for being is like, I got to make this work and I got to keep the team motivated.

这几乎成为你存在的理由，就像，我必须让这项工作成功，我必须保持团队的积极性。

And you're just going, going, going, and then when everything is suddenly stable, you're like, wait, what is my job now?

你就这样走、走、走，然后当一切突然稳定下来时，你会想，等等，我现在的工作是什么？

Lenny: I saw a tweet actually recently, I forget who tweeted this, that CEOs that exit and go on vacation end up being more stressed and less healthy than running a really high stress, high growth company.

莱尼：实际上我最近看到一条推文，我忘了是谁发的，说退出并去度假的首席执行官最终会比经营一家压力很大、高增长的公司承受更大的压力，而且更不健康。

Maya Prohovnik: That is wild.

Maya Prohovnik：这太疯狂了。

I get it though.

不过我明白了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Although I will say when I joined Airbnb and was just the PM of our team working on one thing, it was like, this is really cool.

虽然我会说，当我加入 Airbnb 时，只是我们团队的 PM，致力于一件事，但感觉这真的很酷。

I don't have to worry about everything all the time, there's a really nice relief to that.

我不必一直担心一切，这确实是一种很好的缓解。

But yeah, there's a life existential question of just like, wow, we did the thing.

但是，是的，存在一个生命存在的问题，就像，哇，我们做了那件事。

What am I?

我是什么？

What else?

还有什么？

There's usually not a goal beyond that.

除此之外通常没有目标。

Lenny: What was it for you?

莱尼：给你带来了什么？

Was it that, was it the feeling of I had this thing that I was running and now I don't?

是不是这样，是不是我有一种感觉，我曾经在跑步，但现在却没有了？

Maya Prohovnik: I think it was a little bit the fear of being like a cog in a wheel, which is not actually how I feel now that I work at Spotify.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为这有点像车轮上的齿轮，这并不是我现在在 Spotify 工作时的感受。

And I think the other was like we were doing great, we already were killing it at podcast hosting.

我认为另一个就像我们做得很好，我们已经在播客托管方面大获成功。

And also it was just so fun.

而且它真的很有趣。

I really valued that small company, everyone knows each other.

我真的很看重那家小公司，每个人都互相认识。

We're doing really hard work, but we're also having so much fun.

我们的工作非常辛苦，但我们也很开心。

And I think it felt like I couldn't translate that to a large organization where I was like, okay, now I have to do things how they do.

我觉得我无法将其转化为一个大型组织，我当时想，好吧，现在我必须按照他们的方式做事。

And then I think what actually ended up happening is I actually love how Spotify runs their company and I'm still able to run my team the way that works for me.

然后我认为最终发生的事情是我真的很喜欢 Spotify 运营他们公司的方式，而且我仍然能够以适合我的方式管理我的团队。

And so I think it just goes back to knowing what you care about, being really solidly attached to your own core values and being able to take that with you.

所以我认为这只是回到知道你关心什么，真正坚定地坚持你自己的核心价值观，并能够随身携带它。

Lenny: I think we're both examples of people that were startup people and then realized it's not so bad working at a big company.

莱尼：我认为我们都是初创公司的人，然后意识到在大公司工作并不是那么糟糕。

I stayed at Airbnb for seven years.

我在 Airbnb 呆了七年。

I was like, no, no way, I'm going to be here for more than a year and a half or a year or two.

我当时想，不，不可能，我要在这里呆一年半或一两年以上。

How long have you been at Spotify?

您在 Spotify 工作多久了？

At this point?

在此刻？

Maya Prohovnik: I'm going on five years.

Maya Prohovnik：我要工作五年了。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: No, I think this is just a example of it's you think you're not going to enjoy working at a larger company, but oftentimes it's actually pretty great for a lot of different reasons.

莱尼：不，我认为这只是一个例子，你认为你不会喜欢在大公司工作，但通常情况下，出于很多不同的原因，它实际上非常棒。

Lenny: Shifting in a slightly different direction, just thinking about leadership and what you've learned to lead teams, lead large orgs, build products, is there any just, I don't know, frameworks or tools that you found to be effective?

莱尼：转向一个稍微不同的方向，只是思考领导力以及你在领导团队、领导大型组织、构建产品方面所学到的知识，我不知道是否有任何你认为有效的框架或工具？

Maya Prohovnik: The big one for me is Radical Candor.

Maya Prohovnik：对我来说最重要的是激进的坦率。

And I know my team watching this is going to laugh at me because I talk about this every day.

我知道我的团队看到这个会嘲笑我，因为我每天都在谈论这个。

They're tired of hearing it, but have you read it?

他们听腻了，但你读过吗？

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的。

It's my all time favorite book.

这是我一直以来最喜欢的书。

And I think it really shifted for me, honestly how I relate to people in general.

我认为这确实改变了我，老实说，我与一般人的关系发生了变化。

But I think especially with managing, giving feedback, being able to collaborate and push back in a direct way, direct and constructive way on peers and that sort of thing.

但我认为尤其是在管理、提供反馈、能够协作以及以直接的方式、直接和建设性的方式对同事进行反击等方面。

So I make all of my managers on my team read it.

所以我让团队中的所有经理都阅读这本书。

We talk about it constantly in our team, and I think that the general concepts for anyone who's not familiar is you need to care personally and challenge directly.

我们在团队中经常讨论这个问题，我认为对于任何不熟悉的人来说，一般概念是你需要亲自关心并直接挑战。

And if you're only doing one of those things, you're not giving feedback in an effective way.

如果您只做其中一件事情，那么您就无法以有效的方式提供反馈。

And the book just talks so much about the importance of feedback and how feedback is a gift, which I have now come to completely agree with.

这本书谈到了反馈的重要性以及反馈如何成为一份礼物，我现在完全同意这一点。

It's like anytime I've given someone effective feedback, it's always well received, even if it's tough to hear, people want to get better and they want to know how they can improve.

就像每当我向某人提供有效的反馈时，它总是很受欢迎，即使很难听，人们希望变得更好，他们想知道如何改进。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I think anytime that you can give them specific feedback in a way that makes it clear that you care about them and want them to be able to reach their goals, I think it makes them stronger, it makes your relationship stronger.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：所以我认为任何时候你都可以向他们提供具体的反馈，明确表明你关心他们并希望他们能够实现他们的目标，我认为这会让他们变得更强大，这会让你们的关系更牢固。

And I also think the one other big thing I took away from Radical Candor was when it comes to people not underperforming, it really reframed how I think about that because people are not generally inherently bad or lazy or ineffective, it's almost always because the role they're in is the wrong fit.

我还认为，我从《激进坦诚》中学到的另一件大事是，当涉及到表现不佳的人时，它确实改变了我的想法，因为人们通常并不是天生坏、懒惰或低效的，这几乎总是因为他们所处的角色不合适。

And so being able to approach the conversation in that way means that you can come at it and in a caring way that lets them know you actually want them to be successful.

因此，能够以这种方式进行对话意味着您可以以一种关心的方式进行对话，让他们知道您实际上希望他们成功。

Maya Prohovnik: And what I found is when you have the conversation in that way, they're much more receptive to it.

Maya Prohovnik：我发现，当你以这种方式进行对话时，他们会更容易接受。

And then you're able to either actually resolve the issues or you're able to help them figure out what the right fit is for them, which I think as a manager, it's so inspiring to me because that means that you get to keep mentoring them beyond.

然后你要么能够真正解决问题，要么你能够帮助他们找出最适合他们的方式，我认为作为一名经理，这对我来说非常鼓舞人心，因为这意味着你可以继续指导他们。

You're not just saying, this isn't working, I'm giving up on you, see you later.

你不只是说，这行不通，我要放弃你了，待会儿见。

You're saying, I'm committed to helping you throughout your whole career and let's help you find the next step, even if that isn't on my team or at this company.

你是说，我致力于在你的整个职业生涯中为你提供帮助，让我们帮助你找到下一步，即使这不属于我的团队或这家公司。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Yeah, I love that book.

是的，我喜欢那本书。

And you talked about the two.

你谈到了两者。

There's this grid that-

有这个网格——

Lenny: Yeah, it talks about.

莱尼：是的，它谈到了。

And just to reinforce what you just said, the core is that when you want to give people direct feedback, but you want to make it clear you care deeply about them.

为了强调你刚才所说的，核心是当你想给人们直接反馈时，但你想表明你非常关心他们。

And I love that she talks about if you do one of these wrong, here's what happens.

我喜欢她谈到如果你犯了其中一个错误，就会发生这样的事情。

If you challenge directly, but it doesn't feel like you care deeply, you're just an asshole and they're just like, yeah, God, you get really defensive.

如果你直接挑战，但感觉你并不关心，你就是个混蛋，他们就会说，是的，上帝，你真的很防守。

I should get her on this podcast.

我应该让她加入这个播客。

How cool would that be?

那有多酷？

Maya Prohovnik: Oh my God, that would be my, she's my...

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：天啊，那是我的，她是我的……

If I could meet one tech celebrity, it would be her.

如果我能见到一位科技名人，那就是她。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm going to work on it.

我会努力去做的。

If you're listening and you're Kim Scott, let me know, I will try to get to her.

如果你正在听并且你是 Kim Scott，请告诉我，我会尽力联系她。

Anything else in that bucket of frameworks or tools, things that you find really helpful leadership?

在这一系列框架或工具中，还有哪些东西是您认为对领导力真正有帮助的？

Maya Prohovnik: The only other one, I'm not a huge framework person.

Maya Prohovnik：唯一的另一个，我不是一个大框架人。

I think this goes back to my gut thing, but the one other thing that I refer to often is I love the Eisenhower Matrix, which is also known as the four Ds.

我认为这可以追溯到我的直觉，但我经常提到的另一件事是我喜欢艾森豪威尔矩阵，它也被称为四个 D。

So it's do, defer, delegate, delete, you have also quadrants.

所以它是执行、推迟、委托、删除，你也有象限。

Maybe my brain just works in quadrants.

也许我的大脑只在象限中工作。

I don't know.

我不知道。

But I totally subscribe to that and that's how I do everything, where I write everything down at the end of every day, I go through and I either do delegate, defer, delete, and it really helps you clear a lot of stuff out of your brain.

但我完全同意这一点，这就是我做每一件事的方式，我在每天结束时写下所有事情，我经历过，我要么委托，推迟，删除，这确实可以帮助你清除大脑中的很多东西。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

So you don't even use it as a grid necessarily, it's more make a decision on all the things on your plate?

所以你甚至不必将它用作网格，它更多的是根据你盘子里的所有事情做出决定？

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah, I do.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的，我愿意。

I just tried using the grid view and it didn't work for me for some reason.

我只是尝试使用网格视图，但由于某种原因它对我不起作用。

So I just use a to-do list, and then I don't let myself finish working until I've gone through anything I didn't get through that day, and then I know what I have to do the next day.

所以我只是用一个待办事项清单，然后我不会让自己完成工作，直到我完成了当天没有完成的事情，然后我知道第二天我必须做什么。

Lenny: So that touches on another area I wanted to touch on, which is productivity.

莱尼：这涉及到我想谈的另一个领域，那就是生产力。

I hear you're very good at being productive and making the use of your time.

我听说你非常善于提高工作效率并充分利用时间。

I guess one, where do you think that comes from?

我猜有一个，你认为它来自哪里？

And then two, just any other tips, tactics, tools you find to be really effective in staying productive?

然后是两个，您认为对于保持生产力真正有效的其他技巧、策略和工具吗？

Maya Prohovnik: Yeah, where does that come from?

Maya Prohovnik：是的，那是从哪里来的？

I think I am OCD.

我想我是强迫症。

I think I'm an overachiever.

我想我是一个成绩优异的人。

I don't know, it's really important to me.

我不知道，这对我来说真的很重要。

I think when my team says that I'm very productive, the feedback I hear from them is they're impressed that they send me a doc and then I always read it.

我认为当我的团队说我非常高效时，我从他们那里听到的反馈是，他们给我发送了一份文档，然后我总是阅读它，这给他们留下了深刻的印象。

I think that's more about prioritizing my team and making sure that they're unblocked, which I take very seriously.

我认为这更多的是要优先考虑我的团队并确保他们不受阻碍，我对此非常重视。

I don't know other tips that I would give people.

我不知道我还能给人们其他的建议。

I write everything down because I think I'm one of those people I remember things best when they're written down and then I obsessively put things on my to-do list.

我把所有事情都写下来，因为我认为我是那些在写下事情时记得最好的人之一，然后我痴迷地将事情放在我的待办事项清单上。

Anything that anyone asks me to do goes on there, and then I have that method for organizing it later in the day.

任何人要求我做的任何事情都会在那里进行，然后我就有了在当天晚些时候组织它的方法。

Lenny: Do you have an app for this or do you write it on paper?

Lenny：你有这个应用程序吗？还是你把它写在纸上？

Maya Prohovnik: I use Todoist.

Maya Prohovnik：我使用Todoist。

I think you can use any, but it's the one that works best for me.

我认为你可以使用任何一个，但这是最适合我的一个。

I love using paper, but then if I don't have it with me, then I can't remember anything I have to do, so I've had to go digital.

我喜欢使用纸张，但如果我没有它，我就记不起我必须做的任何事情，所以我不得不转向数字化。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So it sounds like a big part of your process is just getting things out of your head and writing it down somewhere.

所以听起来你的过程的一个重要部分就是把事情从你的脑海中拿出来并把它写在某个地方。

Maya Prohovnik: Yes.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的。

I think that's huge.

我认为那是巨大的。

And I also think if you're in any sort of job, I think most PMs have this where it's so much of your job is actually deep thinking and problem solving.

我还认为，如果你从事任何类型的工作，我认为大多数产品经理都会有这样的情况，即你的大部分工作实际上是深入思考和解决问题。

I just cannot get that done if I'm running through my to-do list in my head.

如果我在脑子里思考待办事项清单，我就无法完成这件事。

So I think that was a big unlock for me when I realized that I just needed to, anytime I'm stressed, honestly, if I just sit and make a list of all the things I have to do, I'm like, oh, it's four things, I can get those done, it's okay.

所以我认为这对我来说是一个很大的释放，当我意识到我只需要在任何有压力的时候，老实说，如果我坐下来列出我必须做的所有事情，我会想，哦，有四件事，我可以完成这些，没关系。

Lenny: Man, that tool of just making a list when you're stressed about, all the things you got to do, just making a list of it on paper, I find it so helpful.

莱尼：伙计，当你有压力时，这个工具可以列出你要做的所有事情，只需在纸上列出一个清单，我发现它很有帮助。

Lenny: Have you read Getting Things Done by David Allen?

莱尼：你读过大卫·艾伦的《把事情做好》吗？

Maya Prohovnik: It's on my list.

Maya Prohovnik：它在我的清单上。

I haven't read it.

我还没读过。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

That book totally transformed how I think about productivity, and you already doing a lot of what he recommends.

那本书完全改变了我对生产力的看法，而且你已经做了很多他建议的事情。

It's like this very old book.

就像这本非常古老的书。

And now he's just, I don't know, he's a public speaker dude that just goes around consulting.

现在他只是，我不知道，他是一个公共演讲者，只是四处咨询。

But this one, it has very simple approaches to being productive and it really changed the way I operate.

但这一个，它有非常简单的方法来提高生产力，并且它确实改变了我的运作方式。

And you're already doing a lot of it, so I don't know how much value you get out of it.

而且你已经做了很多，所以我不知道你能从中获得多少价值。

Maya Prohovnik: I'll read it.

Maya Prohovnik：我会读一下。

I love this stuff.

我喜欢这个东西。

Lenny: A core concept is this idea of mind like water where you don't want to have anything in your head, you want to get it all out.

莱尼：一个核心概念是思想就像水一样，你不想脑子里有任何东西，你想把它全部拿出来。

And then there's these systems for how to process all the things you're getting out.

然后还有这些系统如何处理您发出的所有内容。

Lenny: Maybe we'll get David Allen this.

莱尼：也许我们可以把这个交给大卫·艾伦。

We got a whole list.

我们得到了一份完整的清单。

Maya Prohovnik: I know we have a whole hit list.

Maya Prohovnik：我知道我们有一整套热门名单。

Lenny: Maybe it's just a final question.

莱尼：也许这只是最后一个问题。

You're good at so many things, another thing you're really good at is public speaking.

你擅长很多事情，但你真正擅长的另一件事是公开演讲。

I was watching the last Spotify launch event and I was just like, holy moly, she's incredibly good at speaking and it's something I want to get better at and something I think a 100% of people want to get better at.

我正在观看上一次 Spotify 发布会，当时我就想，天哪，她非常擅长演讲，这是我想要做得更好的事情，我认为 100% 的人都想做得更好。

So, I'm just curious, what have you learned about being an effective public speaker?

所以，我很好奇，关于成为一名有效的公众演讲者，你学到了什么？

Anything that you could recommend to people if they're trying to get better at this?

如果人们想在这方面做得更好，你有什么可以推荐给他们的吗？

Maya Prohovnik: Well, first of all, thank you for saying I'm awesome at so many things.

Maya Prohovnik：首先，谢谢你说我在很多事情上都很棒。

This is my favorite podcast I've ever been on, you're just complimenting me the whole time, so I'll take it.

这是我最喜欢的播客，你一直在称赞我，所以我会接受。

Maya Prohovnik: I think with public speaking, for me, the first thing that I had to do was decide that I didn't hate public speaking because I think it's human nature.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我认为对于我来说，公开演讲时，我要做的第一件事就是决定我不讨厌公开演讲，因为我认为这是人性。

It makes sense that we do not want to be in front of a crowd and we don't want to be performing.

我们不想在人群面前，也不想表演，这是有道理的。

And it's just an unnatural thing that humans, I think make ourselves do.

我认为这是人类强迫自己做的一件不自然的事情。

I remember actually when I was in high school, I had to give a presentation and I had so much anxiety I couldn't sleep the night before.

我记得实际上当我在高中时，我必须做一个演讲，我非常焦虑，以至于前一天晚上无法入睡。

And I remember I was getting ready for school that morning and I was like, I'm just not going to hate public speaking.

我记得那天早上我正准备去学校，我想，我只是不会讨厌公开演讲。

I just can't get through my life feeling this way.

我就是无法以这种方式度过我的一生。

And so I just got up there and I had fun with it, and it felt so much better to not feel worried about it.

所以我就站在那里，享受其中，感觉好多了，不用担心。

Maya Prohovnik: So I think ever since then I've been okay at it.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我想从那时起我就一直做得很好。

And then I have gotten lots of opportunities to do big scary public speaking things for Spotify, and so I think I've had to get even better.

然后我有很多机会为 Spotify 做一些令人恐惧的公开演讲，所以我认为我必须做得更好。

I think my tips would be my biggest one is probably reframing.

我认为我最大的建议可能是重构。

Everyone has this anxiety before they have to perform or they go on stage.

每个人在表演或上台之前都会有这种焦虑。

Reframing that anxiety to understand that the thing your body is doing is surging you with adrenaline to help you.

重新审视这种焦虑，了解你的身体正在做的事情正在让你的肾上腺素激增来帮助你。

And so letting that feeling wash over you instead of fighting it, I think has been so effective for me because otherwise, it can feel like a panic attack.

因此，让这种感觉淹没你而不是对抗它，我认为这对我来说非常有效，因为否则，它会感觉像是恐慌发作。

And so I think you have to be like, cool, my body's getting ready.

所以我认为你必须说，酷，我的身体已经准备好了。

We're excited, we're going to go do this on stage.

我们很兴奋，我们要去舞台上表演。

That has been really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

I practice a million times anytime I have to do public speaking.

每当我需要公开演讲时，我都会练习一百万次。

Maya Prohovnik: So I think everybody has different memorization tactics, different ways of doing speaker notes that work for them.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我认为每个人都有不同的记忆策略，不同的做适合他们的演讲笔记的方法。

And so I think part of it is you have to do a bunch of public speaking to see what works for you.

所以我认为部分原因是你必须做很多公开演讲才能知道什么对你有用。

So some people work best with no notes.

所以有些人在没有笔记的情况下工作得最好。

I almost read complete sentences a good, I can enunciate things while I'm reading, so that works best for me.

我几乎能读完整的句子，我可以在阅读时清晰地表达出来，所以这对我来说是最好的。

Some people like bullets and then they go a little bit off the script.

有些人喜欢子弹，但他们却有点偏离剧本。

But I think once you figure out what method of speaker notes works for you, I rehearse probably at least 10 times all the way through once the speaker notes are final.

但我认为，一旦你弄清楚哪种演讲者笔记方法适合你，一旦演讲者笔记最终确定，我可能会排练至少 10 次。

And you can practice your exact delivery.

您还可以练习准确的表达方式。

You can practice where you're going to put jokes in.

您可以练习要放入笑话的位置。

You can figure out what doesn't feel natural or where you're going to trip it up, and then you can change the words that you're using.

你可以弄清楚什么地方感觉不自然，或者哪里会出错，然后你可以改变你正在使用的词语。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I like to get to the point where I can remember ad-lib at least half of the notes that I have in there, and that way I know I'm going to feel confident coming off script.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我喜欢达到这样的程度：我可以即兴记住至少一半的笔记，这样我就知道我会对剧本充满信心。

I make a lot of eye contact with the audience, which I think makes them think that I'm not reading speaker notes.

我与观众进行了很多眼神交流，我认为这会让他们认为我没有在阅读演讲者笔记。

So I think that's really important.

所以我认为这非常重要。

If you can stand it, which I can't, record yourself or watch yourself in a mirror, it messes me up more.

如果你能忍受（我不能），录制自己或在镜子中观察自己，这会让我更加困惑。

But I think for a lot of people, that can be really helpful to figure out where your issues are.

但我认为对于很多人来说，这对于找出问题所在确实很有帮助。

I think the biggest thing for me honestly, is that the unfair advantage I have is if you really give a shit about what you're talking about, you are going to be such a better presenter because people are going to be able to tell that you care.

老实说，我认为对我来说最重要的是，我拥有的不公平优势是，如果你真的很在乎你所谈论的内容，你就会成为一个更好的演讲者，因为人们能够看出你在乎。

Maya Prohovnik: And so I think even at a larger Spotify event where it's like I'm reading off a teleprompter and I'm reading, I'm marketing, but I'm helping write those words and then the way that I'm saying them matters because I'm talking to podcasters and I'm like, my mission in life is to make things better for you, not everyone gets that benefit, I guess.

Maya Prohovnik：所以我认为，即使在大型 Spotify 活动中，就像我在朗读提词器一样，我在阅读，我在营销，但我正在帮助写这些词，然后我说这些词的方式很重要，因为我正在与播客交谈，我想，我的人生使命是让事情变得更好，我猜不是每个人都能得到这种好处。

Sometimes you have to do public speaking about things that you're not very passionate about, but I certainly think that helps.

有时你必须公开演讲一些你不太热衷的事情，但我认为这确实有帮助。

And I think leaning into that, so when you can, telling personal stories, letting the audience get to know you, I like to work some humor into my presentations.

我认为倾向于这一点，所以当你可以的时候，讲述个人故事，让观众了解你，我喜欢在我的演讲中加入一些幽默。

I think that can really help as well.

我认为这也确实有帮助。

Lenny: That is awesome advice.

莱尼：这是很棒的建议。

I especially love letting the stress wash over you, because most of has this challenge.

我特别喜欢让压力淹没你，因为大多数人都面临着这样的挑战。

Your body's just doing all this shit that's just going to stress the shit out of you.

你的身体正在做这些事情，只会给你带来压力。

And so the idea of just embracing it, just flowing with it.

因此，我们的想法就是拥抱它，顺其自然。

Maya Prohovnik: Yes, it's a superpower.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的，这是一种超级大国。

It's like, that's so cool, that adrenaline works that way.

就像，这太酷了，肾上腺素就是这样起作用的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Okay.

好的。

I'm going to try that one.

我要尝试一下。

Maya Prohovnik: Also, if you're nervous, you can put your hands above your head that'll help the blood, I don't know, it helps it go into your head or something.

Maya Prohovnik：另外，如果你紧张，你可以把手举过头顶，这会帮助血液，我不知道，它会帮助血液进入你的头部什么的。

I don't remember.

我不记得了。

Lenny: There's this whole power post thing that apparently has-

莱尼：整个电力站的事情显然有-

Lenny: I think it's been disproven.

莱尼：我认为这已被证明是错误的。

People are like, no, there's no data that shows that.

人们会说，不，没有数据表明这一点。

But the blood thing that's really interesting versus psychological benefits.

但与心理益处相比，血液确实很有趣。

Maya Prohovnik: I think there is a real physiological thing that happens.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为确实发生了生理上的事情。

Lenny: That's cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

Okay.

好的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

Maybe as an actual last question, what's happening in the future of the Spotify podcasting platform?

也许作为最后一个问题，Spotify 播客平台的未来会发生什么？

Anything you want to share about where things are going?

关于事情的进展，您有什么想分享的吗？

Maya Prohovnik: A lot of the things that I talked about at Stream on for anyone who saw that this year, I think are still very much our strategy.

Maya Prohovnik：我在 Stream on 上为今年看到的人谈论的很多事情，我认为仍然是我们的策略。

So I think for us in general, Spotify is really focused on making sure that we can...

所以我认为对于我们来说，Spotify 真正专注于确保我们能够……

We have a massive audience, we have more than 500 million monthly active listeners.

我们拥有大量的受众，每月有超过 5 亿的活跃听众。

We want to help podcast creators reach that global audience, and so it's really important to us.

我们希望帮助播客创作者接触全球受众，因此这对我们来说非常重要。

I always tell my team the biggest problem that I want to solve for podcasters is discovery and audience growth, and I really think we can be the ones to do it, so I'm really excited about that.

我总是告诉我的团队，我想为播客解决的最大问题是发现和受众增长，我真的认为我们可以做到这一点，所以我对此感到非常兴奋。

So discovery, monetization.

所以发现，货币化。

We're really focused on making sure that creators of all shapes and sizes can make a living off of their work.

我们真正致力于确保各种类型和规模的创作者都能靠他们的作品谋生。

Maya Prohovnik: And then I think in general, we're working on so many cool things at Spotify to make podcasts a more interactive format, something that allows you to get to know your audience and connect with your fan base.

Maya Prohovnik：我认为总的来说，我们在 Spotify 正在做很多很酷的事情，以使播客成为一种更具互动性的格式，让你能够了解你的听众并与你的粉丝群建立联系。

We talked about a couple features this past year.

去年我们讨论了一些功能。

I definitely can't say anything specific, but what I can say is there is lots of really cool stuff coming next year that I'm very excited about.

我绝对不能说任何具体的事情，但我可以说的是明年会有很多非常酷的东西出现，我对此感到非常兴奋。

And I would say for anyone who wants to learn more, definitely sign up for Spotify for podcasters.

我想说，对于任何想了解更多信息的人，一定要注册 Spotify 播客。

It works whether you're hosted with Spotify or not, and you can start to get a sense of some of those features that we're opening up to everybody, but there's lots more cool stuff to come.

无论您是否使用 Spotify 托管，它都可以工作，并且您可以开始了解我们向所有人开放的一些功能，但还有更多更酷的功能即将推出。

Lenny: Amazing, mysterious, and exciting.

莱尼：神奇、神秘、令人兴奋。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

莱尼：您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Maya Prohovnik: Children of Time, and I guess I would say It by Stephen King.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：时间之子，我想我会说斯蒂芬·金的这句话。

I recommend a lot of Stephen King books, but that's my all time favorite.

我推荐了很多斯蒂芬·金的书，但那是我一直最喜欢的。

Lenny: Very on brand with your podcasts.

Lenny：非常符合你的播客品牌。

Makes sense.

有道理。

What is a recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Maya Prohovnik: TV show, I'll just say, I guess Pokerface was the last one that really blew my mind.

Maya Prohovnik：电视节目，我只想说，我想 Pokerface 是最后一个真正让我大吃一惊的节目。

Movies, I mean, Barbie was so good, and then I'll just give you a lesser known one.

电影，我的意思是，《芭比娃娃》太棒了，然后我就给你看一部不太出名的电影。

I just watched this crazy movie from the '80s that was made the same year Home Alone was, this just got featured on a podcast, so I think everybody's talking about it now, but it's a horror movie about a kid who's home alone, and then he has to fight Santa Claus in a home invasion situation.

我刚刚看了一部 80 年代的疯狂电影，与《小鬼当家》同年制作，这部电影刚刚在播客上播出，所以我想现在每个人都在谈论它，但这是一部关于一个孩子独自在家的恐怖电影，然后他必须在入室盗窃的情况下与圣诞老人战斗。

It is so good, it has a bunch of different names, but if you look up either Game Over or it's like Code Père Noël or something, it's an old French horror movie, so good.

它太棒了，它有很多不同的名字，但如果你查一下游戏结束或者类似《Code Père Noël》之类的东西，它是一部古老的法国恐怖电影，非常好。

Lenny: Interesting that the other Home Alone is the one that did well in this one.

莱尼：有趣的是，另一部《小鬼当家》在这一部中表现出色。

Maya Prohovnik: Well, there was apparently a whole legal thing over it.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：嗯，这显然是一个合法的事情。

Lenny: Oh, wow.

莱尼：哦，哇。

They didn't have Macaulay Culkin.

他们没有麦考利卡尔金。

That's their missing piece.

这是他们缺失的一块。

What is a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates when you're interviewing?

面试时您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Maya Prohovnik: I have one.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我有一个。

It is, if you could make a podcast about anything, what would it be?

是的，如果你可以制作一个关于任何事物的播客，它会是什么？

And it is the best.

这是最好的。

Honestly, you should ask people that even if you don't work in work in podcasting, because it tells you so much about candidates, and one thing that I feel very strongly is that the most important thing is that you're hiring passionate people, not people who are passionate necessarily about the thing that you're doing, but about anything.

老实说，你应该问人们，即使你不从事播客工作，因为它告诉你很多关于候选人的信息，我强烈感受到的一件事是，最重要的是你正在雇佣充满激情的人，而不是那些对你正在做的事情充满热情的人，而是对任何事情充满热情的人。

If they can't think of anything, that's a red flag for me.

如果他们想不出任何办法，那对我来说就是一个危险信号。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

It's like a variation of the question of Teach me something or tell me about something that you've learned recently.

这就像“教我一些东西或告诉我一些你最近学到的东西”问题的变体。

Really interesting tweak on that question and very appropriate.

对这个问题的调整非常有趣，而且非常合适。

What is a favorite product or something awesome you've discovered recently that you really like digital or physical?

您最近发现的最喜欢的产品或您真正喜欢数字或物理的很棒的东西是什么？

Maya Prohovnik: Okay.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：好的。

Very unsexy answer, but I love 1-800-CONTACTS.

非常不性感的答案，但我喜欢 1-800-CONTACTS。

Maya Prohovnik: I'm so impressed with their product team.

Maya Prohovnik：他们的产品团队给我留下了深刻的印象。

If you need new contacts, even if you need a new prescription, you can do the whole thing online in five minutes, and it's so well-thought-out and so thoughtful.

如果你需要新的联系人，即使你需要一个新的处方，你也可以在五分钟内在线完成整个事情，而且是那么深思熟虑，那么周到。

I love them.

我爱他们。

And then the one other one I'll give a shout-out to, since becoming a parent, Love Every, do you subscribe to them?

然后，自从成为父母以来，我要大声疾呼的另一则《Love Every》，你订阅它们了吗？

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

I don't know anyone that doesn't have them.

我不知道谁没有它们。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

We are missing some of the toys, and so we're trying to find where they went because he's ready for the rattle.

我们丢失了一些玩具，所以我们正在努力找到它们去了哪里，因为他已经准备好接受嘎嘎声了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I love everybody's amazing and their ads are really great.

我喜欢每个人的精彩，他们的广告真的很棒。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

Lenny: What is a favorite life motto that you come back to often share with folks?

莱尼：你回来后经常与人们分享的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？

Anything there?

那里有什么吗？

Maya Prohovnik: "Only a fool wishes time away." Even if you're having a bad day, even if you're doing something boring or you're stressed, you have to do public speaking, that's still your life and you should enjoy it.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：“只有傻瓜才会希望远离喧嚣。”即使你今天过得很糟糕，即使你在做一些无聊的事情或者压力很大，你也必须公开演讲，那仍然是你的生活，你应该享受它。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

There's this phrase of just like, I'm just killing time right now, and I always think about that, just like, oh, but you don't have that much time.

有这样一句话，就像，我现在只是在消磨时间，我总是想，就像，哦，但你没有那么多时间。

Maybe you shouldn't try to kill yourself.

也许你不应该尝试自杀。

Lenny: Even though sometimes things are boring, it reminds me of another quote of just, "Most of the world's problems are caused by our inability to sit in a room for 10 minutes quietly."

莱尼：虽然有时事情很无聊，但这让我想起了另一句话，“世界上大多数问题都是由于我们无法安静地坐在房间里十分钟造成的。”

Maya Prohovnik: Yes.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的。

Also, if you're bored, have a baby because you'll never be bored again.

另外，如果你感到无聊，那就生个孩子吧，因为你再也不会感到无聊了。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Yep, indeed.

是的，确实如此。

Speaking of parenting, what is a valuable lesson that your mom or your dad taught you?

说到养育子女，你的妈妈或爸爸教给你的宝贵教训是什么？

Maya Prohovnik: My mom always told me that my generosity would be rewarded, so anytime that I was nice or thought of someone else before me, she always made sure that I got some little reward or got to go out for ice cream or something, I think that really worked on me.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：我妈妈总是告诉我，我的慷慨会得到回报，所以每当我表现得很好或者在我之前想到别人时，她总是确保我得到一些小奖励或者出去吃冰淇淋什么的，我认为这对我真的很有效。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Final question, I saw somewhere that you raised bait backyard chickens.

最后一个问题，我在某个地方看到你在后院养鸡作为诱饵。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Maya Prohovnik: I'm so happy you asked about my chickens'.

Maya Prohovnik：我很高兴你询问我的鸡的情况。

Lenny: I love that reaction.

莱尼：我喜欢这种反应。

So maybe just why did you decide to do that and any tips for someone that may want to explore it?

那么，也许您决定这样做的原因以及对可能想要探索它的人有什么建议吗？

Maya Prohovnik: Oh my God.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：天哪。

Well, we should have started with this because I can talk about this for an hour and a half, but I love my chickens.

好吧，我们应该从这个开始，因为我可以谈论这个半小时，但我喜欢我的鸡。

I have eight of them, we've got one rooster and seven hens.

我有八只，我们有一只公鸡和七只母鸡。

I think that all of us should be a little bit closer to nature, to the, I was going to say, the food that we're eating, I'm not going to eat my chickens, but they make eggs for me.

我认为我们所有人都应该更接近自然，更接近我们正在吃的食物，我不会吃我的鸡，但它们为我做鸡蛋。

But I just think there is something very lacking in our modern lives, that connection to nature.

但我只是认为我们的现代生活非常缺乏一些东西，那就是与自然的联系。

When I feel stressed at work and I go outside and I hang out with my chickens, I pet them, and I give them treats and we talk to each other.

当我在工作中感到压力时，我会出去和我的鸡一起出去玩，我抚摸它们，给它们零食，我们互相交谈。

It's like nothing makes me happier and feel more grounded than hanging out with my chickens.

没有什么比和我的鸡们一起出去玩更让我快乐、更踏实的感觉了。

So I think everyone should have chickens.

所以我认为每个人都应该养鸡。

I would say they're pretty low maintenance, so if you're thinking about it, I would recommend it.

我想说它们的维护成本非常低，所以如果您正在考虑的话，我会推荐它。

And if you get chickens, my favorite thing that I did for them, I got this monthly subscription box for chickens I think it's called Coop Crate.

如果你养鸡，我最喜欢为它们做的事情，我有这个每月的鸡订阅盒，我想它叫“Coop Crate”。

Maya Prohovnik: Yes, it's Love Every for Chickens and every month they send me chicken treats, but also fun little things for crazy chicken people, so it's clothes or a sticker, something funny.I'm very into the whole chicken thing, so, yeah.

玛雅·普罗霍夫尼克：是的，这是《Love Every for Chickens》，他们每个月都会给我寄鸡肉零食，但也给疯狂的养鸡人带来有趣的小东西，所以它是衣服或贴纸，一些有趣的东西。我非常喜欢鸡肉的事情，所以，是的。

Lenny: Oh my God.

莱尼：天啊。

Maybe just a tactical question, how much space do you need in your yard for chickens?

也许只是一个战术问题，你的院子里需要多少空间来养鸡？

Maya Prohovnik: Not that much, so we let them free-range.

Maya Prohovnik：没那么多，所以我们让它们自由放养。

We have a pretty big yard, but I think their actual, so there's their little coop, and then they've got a run that's fenced in.

我们有一个相当大的院子，但我认为他们是真实的，所以那里有他们的小鸡舍，然后他们有一个用栅栏围起来的跑道。

The run is maybe like, I don't know, five feet by eight feet or something, but you can go a lot smaller.

我不知道，跑步的距离可能是五英尺乘八英尺之类的，但你可以走得小得多。

If you go to Home Depot, they actually sell pre-made coops and runs.

如果你去家得宝，他们实际上出售预制的鸡舍和跑道。

I think if you have a decent sized backyard, they'll be fine.

我想如果你有一个足够大的后院，他们会没事的。

I've known people with pretty small yards, and you just let your chickens out and they're happy and they'll find worms in a few yards.

我认识一些人，他们的院子很小，你只要把鸡放出去，它们就会很高兴，并且会在几码内发现蠕虫。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

All right.

好的。

A new project to look into.

一个需要研究的新项目。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Maya, we've talked about chickens, dogfooding, gut level decisions, Radical Candor, so many things.

玛雅，我们讨论了鸡、狗食、直觉决策、激进的坦率，等等。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Maya Prohovnik: I'm on threads, I guess, and I'm on LinkedIn.

Maya Prohovnik：我想，我在讨论话题，而且在 LinkedIn 上。

I'm Maya Fish on most social media, and then I'm on LinkedIn, and then, what was the second one?

我在大多数社交媒体上都是 Maya Fish，然后我在 LinkedIn 上，然后，第二个是什么？

How can people be useful to me?

人们怎样才能对我有用？

Maya Prohovnik: Listen to your podcast on Spotify, and then send me your feedback.

Maya Prohovnik：在 Spotify 上收听您的播客，然后将您的反馈发送给我。

I would love to know either as a podcast creator or as a podcast listener.

我很想知道作为播客创作者或播客听众。

Always happy to hear what Spotify can be doing more of or better to help you out.

总是很高兴听到 Spotify 可以做更多或更好的事情来帮助您。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Maya, thank you so much for being here.

玛雅，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。