The one question that saves product careers | Matt LeMay
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're really open and open source, sometimes you have to stand up the bullies and you have to fight to protect your open source ideals.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你真的开放并且开源，有时你必须反抗恶霸，你必须为保护你的开源理想而奋斗。
Speaker 1: Please put your hands together for Matt Mullenweg.
发言者 1：请为 Matt Mullenweg 举手。
Lenny Rachitsky: Matt Mullenweg has been making some questionable moves recently.
Lenny Rachitsky：Matt Mullenweg 最近做出了一些可疑的举动。
There's a lot going on with Matt and WordPress these days.
这些天 Matt 和 WordPress 发生了很多事情。
20+ years of good sentiment burned in days.
20多年的美好感情在几天之内就被烧毁了。
You are like a 100% beloved hero of open source and internet and now you're in this, a lot of people don't like you.
你就像一个 100% 受人爱戴的开源和互联网英雄，但现在你身处其中，很多人不喜欢你。
Matt Mullenweg: If you were kind of inside baseball with WordPress, it's actually a lot of people who have been unhappy with me over the years.
Matt Mullenweg：如果您是 WordPress 的棒球爱好者，那么实际上多年来很多人都对我不满意。
Previously, 1% of the world thought I was terrible and now I feel like it's up to four or 5%.
以前，世界上有 1% 的人认为我很糟糕，现在我觉得这个比例上升到了 4% 或 5%。
Lenny Rachitsky: People that don't know what the hell's going on, what's just like the high level overview of what's going on?
Lenny Rachitsky：人们不知道到底发生了什么，就像对正在发生的事情的高级概述一样吗？
Matt Mullenweg: There's a company called WP Engine.
Matt Mullenweg：有一家名为 WP Engine 的公司。
By 2018, they got bought out by a private equity firm called Silver Lake.
到 2018 年，他们被一家名为 Silver Lake 的私募股权公司收购。
Since 2019, WP Engine has kind of changed a bit.
自 2019 年以来，WP Engine 发生了一些变化。
They started using the trademark, they're offering something called WordPress.
他们开始使用该商标，并提供名为 WordPress 的产品。
They're referred to it as like a bastardized hacked up version of it.
他们将其称为“混蛋破解版”。
It's diluting our brand.
它正在淡化我们的品牌。
Lenny Rachitsky: Why do you think so many people are looking at you as the bad guy?
Lenny Rachitsky：你认为为什么这么多人把你视为坏人？
Matt Mullenweg: A lie gets around the world seven times before the truth has time to get out of bed.
马特·穆伦韦格（Matt Mullenweg）：在真相来得及起床之前，谎言已经在世界各地传播了七次。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Matt Mullenweg.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Matt Mullenweg。
Matt is the co-creator of WordPress, which powers 40% of websites on the internet today, including whitehouse.gov.
马特 (Matt) 是 WordPress 的共同创建者，当今互联网上 40% 的网站都支持 WordPress，其中包括 Whitehouse.gov。
He's also the CEO of Automatic, which is valued at over $7 billion and owns products like WordPress.com, Tumblr, WooCommerce, Gravatar, and Pocket Casts.
他还是 Automatic 的首席执行官，该公司估值超过 70 亿美元，拥有 WordPress.com、Tumblr、WooCommerce、Gravatar 和 Pocket Casts 等产品。
There is a lot of drama these days around Matt and WordPress and within the open source community, so I thought I'd have Matt on to address many of the criticisms head-on that he hasn't addressed in other places and also just get the full story on what's going on.
这些天围绕 Matt 和 WordPress 以及开源社区发生了很多戏剧性的事情，所以我想我应该让 Matt 正面解决他在其他地方没有解决的许多批评，并了解正在发生的事情的完整故事。
We also chat about what incepted him to spend over half his life at this point on open source and creating WordPress.
我们还讨论了是什么促使他将大半生的时间花在开源和创建 WordPress 上。
Also, why products like Llama are what he calls 'fake open source' and his perspective on AI and open source.
另外，为什么像 Llama 这样的产品被他称为“假开源”，以及他对人工智能和开源的看法。
Also, how AI is actually trained on open source code and what that means for the future and his approach for deciding what companies to acquire within Automatic.
此外，人工智能实际上是如何接受开源代码训练的，这对未来意味着什么，以及他决定在自动化领域收购哪些公司的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这一集，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you now get a year free of Notion and Superhuman and Perplexity Pro and Linear and Granola.
另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您现在可以免费获得一年的 Notion、Superhuman、Perplexity Pro、Linear 和 Granola。
Check it out at lenny'snewsletter.com.
请访问 lenny'snewsletter.com 进行查看。
With that, I bring you Matt Mullenweg.
接下来，我为您带来马特·穆伦韦格。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 Skim 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.
如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine grain authorization service.
WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, skim or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、浏览或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
It's a drop-in replacement for auth zero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.
它是 auth Zero 的直接替代品，并免费支持多达 100 万的每月活跃用户。
Check it out at workos.com to learn more, that's workos.com.
请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息，那就是 workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta and I am very excited to have Christina Cacioppo, CEO and co-founder Vanta joining me for this very short conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，我很高兴 Vanta 首席执行官兼联合创始人克里斯蒂娜·卡西奥波 (Christina Cacioppo) 与我一起进行这个简短的对话。
Christina Cacioppo: Great to be here, big fan of the podcast and the newsletter.
Christina Cacioppo：很高兴来到这里，我是播客和时事通讯的忠实粉丝。
Lenny Rachitsky: Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show, but for some of our newer listeners, what does Vanta do and who is it for?
Lenny Rachitsky：Vanta 是该节目的长期赞助商，但对于我们的一些新听众来说，Vanta 是做什么的？它是为谁服务的？
Christina Cacioppo: Sure.
克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波：当然。
So we started Vanta in 2018 focused on founders helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications like SOC 2 or ISO 27001.
因此，我们于 2018 年创立了 Vanta，重点帮助创始人帮助他们开始构建安全计划，并通过 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 等合规性认证为所有艰苦的安全工作赢得赞誉。
Today we currently help over 9,000 companies including some startup household names like Atlassian, Ramp and LangChain start and scale their security programs and ultimately build trust by automating compliance, centralizing GRC, and accelerating security reviews.
如今，我们目前帮助超过 9,000 家公司（包括 Atlassian、Ramp 和 LangChain 等一些家喻户晓的初创公司）启动和扩展其安全计划，并最终通过自动化合规性、集中 GRC 和加速安全审查来建立信任。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I know from experience that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources and nobody wants to spend time doing this.
我从经验中知道，这些事情需要花费大量时间和资源，没有人愿意花时间来做这件事。
Christina Cacioppo: That is very much our experience before the company and to some extent during it.
Christina Cacioppo：这就是我们在加入公司之前以及在某种程度上在公司期间的经历。
But the idea is with automation, with AI, with software, we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way.
但我们的想法是通过自动化、人工智能和软件，我们正在帮助客户以有效的方式与潜在客户和客户建立信任。
And our joke, we started this compliance company so you don't have to.
我们开玩笑说，我们创办了这家合规公司，这样您就不必这么做了。
Lenny Rachitsky: We appreciate you for doing that and you have a special discount for listeners, they can get $1000 off Vanta at vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny for $1,000 off Vanta.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们感谢您这样做，您为听众提供了特别折扣，他们可以在vanta.com/lenny 上享受Vanta 1000 美元折扣，即V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny 上Vanta 折扣1000 美元。
Thanks for that, Christina.
谢谢你，克里斯蒂娜。
Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Matt Mullenweg: Thanks, big fan and long time listener, so happy to be on.
Matt Mullenweg：谢谢，大粉丝和长期听众，很高兴参加。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm a long time fan.
Lenny Rachitsky：我是它的长期粉丝。
I've been wanting to get you on this podcast for so long and this is such an interesting time to be chatting with you, there's a lot going on with Matt and WordPress these days, so it's really interesting, almost good that we waited a little bit to talk so we're going to get into a lot of that stuff.
我一直想让你加入这个播客，现在和你聊天真是太有趣了，这些天 Matt 和 WordPress 发生了很多事情，所以这真的很有趣，几乎很好，我们等了一会儿才开始讨论，所以我们将讨论很多这些东西。
But I want to start with just what is it that you do, Matt?
但我想从你做什么开始，马特？
What are all the things you're involved in?
您参与的所有事情是什么？
Give people a sense of just the things you're working on.
让人们了解您正在做的事情。
Matt Mullenweg: So first, when I was 19, I co-founded an open source project called WordPress with Mike Little and we started just blogging software, then became sort of a full site thing and then became a platform that really tons of stuff is built on and now it's kind of transitioning into this cool WASM can be embedded anywhere or run locally or make mobile apps.
Matt Mullenweg：所以首先，当我 19 岁时，我与 Mike Little 共同创立了一个名为 WordPress 的开源项目，我们开始只是博客软件，然后成为一个完整的网站，然后成为一个真正构建大量内容的平台，现在它正在过渡到这个很酷的 WASM 可以嵌入到任何地方或在本地运行或制作移动应用程序。
It's really interesting seeing WordPress used as an engine for powering things I would say don't even look like a website, which is kind of wild to me, but that's kind of the beauty of the open source people do things with that you don't expect.
看到 WordPress 被用作驱动事物的引擎真的很有趣，我想说，它甚至看起来都不像一个网站，这对我来说有点疯狂，但这就是开源的美妙之处，人们用它来做你意想不到的事情。
End up dropping out of college, moving to San Francisco and then worked at CNET for a year as project manager actually, that's how they hired me.
最终我从大学退学，搬到了旧金山，然后在 CNET 工作了一年，实际上担任项目经理，他们就是这样雇用我的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about that, but go on.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈这个，但请继续。
Matt Mullenweg: And then had this vision where instead of downloading the software and setting up a database and everything, we made a SaaS version of WordPress.
Matt Mullenweg：然后有了这样的愿景：我们制作了 WordPress 的 SaaS 版本，而不是下载软件并设置数据库等等。
I pitched it at CNET, they didn't want to do it, so I was like, "Okay, I got to do this," so I left and started a company called Automatic.
我向 CNET 推销了它，他们不想这样做，所以我想，“好吧，我必须这样做，”所以我离开并创办了一家名为“Automatic”的公司。
And the idea was to essentially compliment the core WordPress software with some commercial services, things that run in the cloud, like Akismet which is our machine learning AI, I guess you'd call it AI now, but anti-spam system, or Jetpack, which is iCloud for WordPress.
这个想法本质上是用一些商业服务来补充核心 WordPress 软件，这些服务在云中运行，比如 Akismet，它是我们的机器学习人工智能，我想你现在会称之为人工智能，但反垃圾邮件系统，或 Jetpack，这是 WordPress 的 iCloud。
It does the backups and the real time sync and everything like that.
它负责备份和实时同步以及类似的事情。
Matt Mullenweg: So that was 19 years ago, so that's now grown to be over 1700 people in actually 90 countries so we've actually been fully distributed and remote and asynchronous from the start, which I think is one of our superpowers.
Matt Mullenweg：那是 19 年前的事了，现在已经发展到超过 1700 人，遍布 90 个国家，所以我们实际上从一开始就是完全分布式、远程和异步的，我认为这是我们的超级大国之一。
I actually wasn't the CEO in the beginning, but in 2014, so I guess 11 years ago, I became CEO.
其实一开始我并不是首席执行官，但是在 2014 年，所以我猜是 11 年前，我成为了首席执行官。
The original CEO was...
原来的CEO是...
Well, I guess I wasn't the very beginning, but then I hired Tony Schneider from BCL, probably four or five months in.
嗯，我想我并不是最开始的，但后来我从 BCL 聘请了托尼·施奈德 (Tony Schneider)，大概四五个月后。
Matt Mullenweg: And yeah, so that is a very full-time thing and Automatic does a lot of products, WooCommerce, which is open source Shopify, which is now half our revenue.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，这是一件非常全职的事情，Automatic 做了很多产品，WooCommerce，它是开源 Shopify，现在占我们收入的一半。
And then we have some really cool apps so like Beeper, DayOne, Simplenote, Rocket Casts or trying to fill up your home screens with open web, open source things that are very privacy and user-centric.
然后我们有一些非常酷的应用程序，比如 Beeper、DayOne、Simplenote、Rocket Casts，或者尝试用开放网络、开源的东西填满你的主屏幕，这些东西非常隐私和以用户为中心。
So running that company is definitely a full-time job.
所以经营那家公司绝对是一份全职工作。
I still run WordPress.org and the WordPress project, so I'm the lead developer there and so sort of manage all those releases in the community and the directories and all the sort of things we do on WordPress.org and this cool thing called Openverse we took over Creative Commons, which is a way you can find sort open licensed images and audio and video.
我仍然运行 WordPress.org 和 WordPress 项目，所以我是那里的首席开发人员，所以管理社区和目录中的所有这些版本以及我们在 WordPress.org 上所做的所有事情，这个名为 Openverse 的很酷的东西我们接管了知识共享，这是一种你可以找到排序开放许可图像和音频和视频的方式。
So basically if you notice a throughput through all these things, it's open source.
所以基本上如果你注意到所有这些东西的吞吐量，它是开源的。
Matt Mullenweg: On the nights and weekends or side, a few hours a week I do some angel investing.
Matt Mullenweg：在晚上和周末或者业余时间，我每周花几个小时进行一些天使投资。
So I've done over 100 angel investments through an entity called Audrey Capital, which is sort of, if anything's in the sort of WordPress space, I invest in it through Automatic, but if anything's a little more further afield I do it through Audrey Capital and have done some really exciting investments there, everything from name brands like Stripe and SpaceX, but also it was in the seat of Calm or a lot of home automation stuff like Ring, August, smart things.
因此，我通过一家名为 Audrey Capital 的实体进行了 100 多项天使投资，如果是 WordPress 领域的任何东西，我都会通过 Automatic 进行投资，但如果有更远一点的东西，我会通过 Audrey Capital 进行投资，并在那里做了一些非常令人兴奋的投资，其中包括 Stripe 和 SpaceX 等知名品牌，但也包括 Calm 或许多家庭自动化产品，如 Ring、August 等智能产品。
Yeah, just check out Audrey Capital, it's got some fun stuff in there.
是的，看看 Audrey Capital，那里有一些有趣的东西。
Daylight Computer, which is one I'm very excited about right now.
Daylight Computer，这是我现在非常兴奋的一款。
Matt Mullenweg: And I guess finally I love San Francisco, so I an a co-owner of a cool grungy jazz club in North Beach called Keys with Simon Rowe.
Matt Mullenweg：我想我最终还是喜欢旧金山的，所以我和 Simon Rowe 共同在北海滩开了一家很酷的蹩脚爵士乐俱乐部，名为 Keys。
So if Wednesday through Saturday night, you want to see some awesome live jazz, check out Keys.
因此，如果周三到周六晚上，您想观看一些精彩的现场爵士乐，请查看 Keys。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。
You said too much, I get it now.
你说得太多了，我现在明白了。
Jazz club I was not aware of, I got to check this out.
我不知道的爵士俱乐部，我得去看看。
It's called Keys?
这也叫钥匙？
Matt Mullenweg: It's over on Broadway in Columbus, kind of right around there.
Matt Mullenweg：就在哥伦布百老汇附近。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
That was news to me.
这对我来说是新闻。
Going back to Automatic, I think people don't get the scale of this thing, so just to mirror back, if you think that even add to what you've said, 1700 people work there, 90 different countries.
回到自动，我认为人们不了解这件事的规模，所以只是回顾一下，如果你认为即使加上你所说的，有 1700 人在那里工作，来自 90 个不同的国家。
Also, you didn't share this stat, it was something like 43% of internet websites are built on WordPress, run on WordPress.
另外，您没有分享这个统计数据，大约 43% 的互联网网站都是在 WordPress 上构建、在 WordPress 上运行的。
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, so when we started, a lot of websites were built on custom CMSs and there's a lot of fragmentation in the space, but now WordPress has grown to be over 40% of all websites in the world, which is 10x the number two, which right now is Shopify.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，所以当我们开始时，很多网站都是基于自定义 CMS 构建的，并且该领域存在很多碎片，但现在 WordPress 已增长到占全球所有网站的 40% 以上，是目前排名第二的 Shopify 的 10 倍。
Lenny Rachitsky: Right, they're like at 4%.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，大概是 4%。
I was looking at that list.
我正在看那个清单。
Matt Mullenweg: It used to be open source was the top three.
Matt Mullenweg：以前开源是前三名。
Unfortunately, Jula and Drupal have fallen behind, and so now it's like Shopify, Wix, Squarespace are the top ones but WordPress is still, because we have this flywheel of open source community, its movements, any open source like Linux or Apache or Wikipedia, it has some positive flywheel effects when it takes off.
不幸的是，Jula 和 Drupal 已经落后了，所以现在 Shopify、Wix、Squarespace 都是顶级的，但 WordPress 仍然是，因为我们有这个开源社区的飞轮，它的运动，任何开源，如 Linux、Apache 或维基百科，它在起飞时都会产生一些积极的飞轮效应。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了，好吧。
And then there's a few other things you didn't mention, I want to get to this later, but I'll just mention now, you guys own Tumblr, you bought Tumblr, which I don't think a lot of people necessarily know.
还有一些你没有提到的其他事情，我想稍后再说，但我现在只想提一下，你们拥有 Tumblr，你们购买了 Tumblr，我认为很多人不一定知道这一点。
Matt Mullenweg: I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that, Tumblr.
Matt Mullenweg：抱歉，我忘了提及这一点，Tumblr。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to get into that, yeah.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我们会讨论这个问题。
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, running a social network is definitely the hardest thing I've ever attempted.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，运营社交网络绝对是我尝试过的最困难的事情。
I thought we knew what we were doing because WordPress ran so much of the web, we dealt with, I thought, every content moderation thing you could ever deal with, but social networks are a whole other ballgame.
我以为我们知道我们在做什么，因为 WordPress 运行了如此多的网络，我想我们处理了您可以处理的所有内容审核问题，但社交网络完全是另一回事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, a couple more fun facts before we get into some other stuff I want to chat about.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，在我们开始讨论我想聊的其他内容之前，先讲几个有趣的事实。
Fun fact number one is you were super involved in the Bay Lights project.
第一个有趣的事实是您非常参与海湾灯光项目。
I didn't know this.
我不知道这个。
For people that don't know what the Bay Lights, if you're in San Francisco you definitely know what the Bay Lights project is and I'm sure you love it, for people that don't know what this is about, what is this project and how have you been involved?
对于那些不知道 Bay Lights 是什么的人，如果你在旧金山，你肯定知道 Bay Lights 项目是什么，我相信你喜欢它，对于那些不知道 Bay Lights 是什么的人，这个项目是什么以及你是如何参与的？
Why have you been instrumental in to make this a thing?
为什么你在这件事上发挥了重要作用？
Matt Mullenweg: Bay Lights, there's two famous bridges in San Francisco, the Golden Gate Bridge, which is kind of the iconic one, there's actually the Bay Bridge, which is the workhorse of San Francisco.
Matt Mullenweg：海湾之光，旧金山有两座著名的桥梁，金门大桥是标志性的一座，实际上还有海湾大桥，它是旧金山的主力桥梁。
It's one of the busiest bridges in the country.
它是该国最繁忙的桥梁之一。
And it's really beautiful from an engineering point of view.
从工程学的角度来看，它真的很漂亮。
And so kind of a vision between Ben Davis and artist Leo Villarreal, who's an amazing light artist, actually who started Burning Man was to put, gosh, I forget the number, I think 18,000 LEDs on the side of the bridge on all the cables and create this really beautiful, gentle kind of algorithmic light piece, light art piece.
本·戴维斯 (Ben Davis) 和艺术家利奥·比利亚雷亚尔 (Leo Villarreal) 之间的愿景是，他是一位了不起的灯光艺术家，实际上发起火人节的人是在桥的一侧所有电缆上放置 18,000 个 LED，创造出这种非常美丽、温和的算法灯光作品，灯光艺术作品。
Matt Mullenweg: And yeah, Ben Davis was dating an artist friend of mine and we were over and having drinks on my patio and we were looking at the Bay Bridge and I had this kind of thing where there's some lights at the top of the Bay Bridge and I was like, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool if those lights were Christmas lights and they could do patterns or something?" It's the lights to keep planes from hitting it.
马特·穆伦韦格：是的，本·戴维斯正在和我的一位艺术家朋友约会，我们在我的露台上喝了一杯，我们正在看海湾大桥，我有这样的东西，海湾大桥的顶部有一些灯，我当时想，“哦，如果这些灯是圣诞灯并且它们可以做图案或其他东西，那不是很酷吗？”这是为了防止飞机撞到它的灯。
And I was like, "Oh, you could program that." He was like, "Yeah." It was almost like the Social Network thing where a million's cool, but a billion would be really cool.
我当时想，“哦，你可以编程。”他说：“是的。”这几乎就像社交网络一样，一百万就很酷，但十亿就真的很酷了。
He was like, "Yeah, that would be cool, but what if we put the whole side of it?" And so I was like, "Oh, cool," and sort of made an angel investment in that thing.
他说，“是的，那会很酷，但是如果我们把它的整个侧面都放上去呢？”所以我就想，“哦，太酷了”，然后就对那件事进行了天使投资。
They hadn't raised anything or had, I don't even think an entity at that point, but I was like to get you started, I forget what it was, 100 or 150k so I gave them that first bit and then it kind of blossomed into a thing.
他们没有筹集任何资金或拥有任何东西，我什至不认为这是一个实体，但我想让你开始，我忘了那是什么，100 或 150k，所以我给了他们第一点，然后它就发展成了一个东西。
Matt Mullenweg: And then sort of fast-forward, I don't remember the exact timeline, but they were kind of at a final bit of fundraise and they weren't able to close that last bit and I actually mortgaged my condos and donated the last million, million and a half to finish out that project.
马特·马伦韦格：然后快进，我不记得确切的时间表，但他们在筹款的最后一点，他们无法完成最后一点，我实际上抵押了我的公寓并捐赠了最后一百万，一百万和一半来完成该项目。
The Bay Lights were online for 10 years.
Bay Lights 已上线 10 年。
The technology degraded, and so the environment's very harsh.
技术退化了，所以环境非常恶劣。
So actually we just completed a fundraise and are reinstalling the Bay Lights.
所以实际上我们刚刚完成了筹款并正在重新安装海湾灯。
They're calling it Bay Lights 360.
他们称之为 Bay Lights 360。
So now it'll be both sides of the bridge, it'll be visible from also Oakland and the Treasure Island because the first version, the city was very worried about the drivers seeing the lights and it might distract them so we had to angle them so that you could only see it from San Francisco, which was a compromise we didn't love because we love the East Bay and everything else like that too.
所以现在它将在桥的两侧，从奥克兰和金银岛也可以看到，因为第一个版本，市政府非常担心司机看到灯光，这可能会分散他们的注意力，所以我们必须调整它们的角度，这样你只能从旧金山看到它，这是一个我们不喜欢的妥协，因为我们也喜欢东湾和其他类似的地方。
So new version is coming online hopefully later this year in the fall.
因此，新版本有望在今年秋季晚些时候上线。
And also that turned into a nonprofit called Illuminate, which I'm on the board of run by Ben Davis, who I mentioned previously, that does cool public art stuff around the city.
这也变成了一个名为 Illuminate 的非营利组织，我是本·戴维斯 (Ben Davis) 运营的董事会成员，我之前提到过他，它在城市周围做很酷的公共艺术。
So they're responsible for the Grace Lights, all the JFK Boulevard stuff where that has some murals and the beer garden and all the chairs, that's all Illuminate.
所以他们负责 Grace Lights，所有肯尼迪大道上的东西，那里有一些壁画、啤酒花园和所有椅子，这都是照明。
So their thing is radical public art.
所以他们的事情是激进的公共艺术。
So it's like art that needs to be free and accessible.
所以这就像艺术一样，需要免费且易于获取。
And I think that's so important for San Francisco.
我认为这对旧金山来说非常重要。
We have great institutions know the SF, MoMA, the Opera, etc, that have huge budgets like 100 million a year and Illuminate literally one 10th of that has created something that millions of people can enjoy.
我们有伟大的机构，比如旧金山艺术博物馆、现代艺术博物馆、歌剧院等，每年的预算高达 1 亿美元，而 Illuminate 几乎只用其中的十分之一就创造了数百万人可以享受的东西。
Matt Mullenweg: And I like to think that anyone along the Embarcadero, you might be going through a tough time, obviously we have people who are struggling with mental health and homelessness and everything like that, but maybe seeing a little bit of art can help raise your soul a little bit.
Matt Mullenweg：我喜欢认为，内河码头沿线的任何人都可能正在经历一段艰难的时期，显然我们有人正在与心理健康和无家可归等问题作斗争，但也许看到一点艺术可以帮助提升你的灵魂。
And that's how I think about philanthropy as well.
这也是我对慈善事业的看法。
You need to work on the base issues, the fundamentals at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and then you also have to work on the things that raise your soul a little bit, so arts.
你需要致力于解决基本问题，马斯洛需求层次结构底部的基础知识，然后你还必须致力于那些能够稍微提升你灵魂的事情，所以艺术。
So I like that barbell approach to philanthropy.
所以我喜欢这种杠铃式的慈善方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Elon has a great quote along those lines, "You can't just work on solving problems all day, you need something inspiring to think about and to work towards." First of all, thank you for doing this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：埃隆有一句很好的名言，“你不能整天致力于解决问题，你需要一些鼓舞人心的东西来思考和努力。”首先，感谢您所做的事情。
If you live in SF, you're like, this makes the city better, just having this around.
如果你住在旧金山，你会想，只要有这个，你的城市就会变得更好。
I didn't realize you were involved in helping come up with the idea itself.
我没有意识到你参与了帮助提出这个想法本身。
I know that you did mortgaged your house to make it possible.
我知道你抵押了你的房子才使这一切成为可能。
Matt Mullenweg: I can't take any credit for the idea, I was exposed to it.
Matt Mullenweg：这个想法不能归功于我，我是接触过它的。
I had an adjacent idea and they had a way cooler one with a real artist and everything like that.
我有一个相邻的想法，他们有一个更酷的想法，有一位真正的艺术家等等。
So I was just happy to be there.
所以我很高兴能在那里。
It's like being an angel investor, you can support the entrepreneurs and the people who truly do it.
这就像成为天使投资人一样，你可以支持企业家和真正做到这一点的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，好的。
And the other funny thing you said is about they were worried about the angle of the lights distracting people.
你说的另一件有趣的事情是他们担心灯光的角度会分散人们的注意力。
What's funny is when I drive across the bridge, you can only see it when you're driving towards San Francisco looking backwards.
有趣的是，当我开车过桥时，只有当你开车前往旧金山向后看时才能看到它。
So I'm looking in my rearview mirror or in the mirror turning around to the kind and it feels more dangerous, the lights shining in my face.
所以我看着后视镜或者转身看镜子，感觉更危险，灯光照在我脸上。
Matt Mullenweg: They call it impossible works of art.
Matt Mullenweg：他们称之为不可能的艺术作品。
There were like 13 agencies that had to sign off, they were worried the lights would distract birds or seals or environmental reviews, and it was really a lot of public bureaucrats and to make that happen, there was 20 places where someone could have said no and it never would happen.
有大约 13 个机构必须签字，他们担心灯光会分散鸟类或海豹的注意力，或者分散环境审查的注意力，而且确实需要很多公共官僚，为了实现这一点，有 20 个地方有人可以拒绝，但这种情况永远不会发生。
So it's very inspiring to see the city come together.
因此，看到这座城市走到一起是非常鼓舞人心的。
Matt Mullenweg: Also in San Francisco, I feel like is entering new chapter right now, going from the doom loop to the boom loop.
Matt Mullenweg：同样在旧金山，我觉得现在正在进入新的篇章，从末日循环到繁荣循环。
I'm a big believer in the city.
我是这座城市的忠实信徒。
So much innovation has come here from food, the burrito, fortune cookies, all these sorts of things are from San Francisco to obviously all the tech innovation that we're all familiar with.
这里有如此多的创新，从食物、墨西哥卷饼、幸运饼干，所有这些来自旧金山的东西到显然我们都熟悉的所有技术创新。
It's kind of the city of the future and I don't know what it is in the water from the '60s until now, cultural innovations, things that happen and influenced the whole world, Burning Man, Grateful Dead, et cetera.
这是一种未来的城市，我不知道从 60 年代到现在，水中有什么，文化创新，发生并影响整个世界的事情，火人节，感恩而死等等。
That all starts in San Francisco.
这一切都始于旧金山。
So it's exciting to be here.
所以来到这里很令人兴奋。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's set the so back, as they say on Twitter.
Lenny Rachitsky：正如他们在推特上所说的那样，让我们把一切都放回去吧。
Okay, someone very close to you told me that you're an excellent rapper.
好吧，一个跟你很亲近的人告诉我你是一位出色的说唱歌手。
I'm not going to ask you to rap, but if you ever want to answer any questions in rap form, feel free.
我不会要求你说唱，但如果你想以说唱形式回答任何问题，请随意。
Matt Mullenweg: Oh man, that would be fun.
Matt Mullenweg：天哪，那会很有趣。
I've dreamed about being able to do a Q&A and rhyme, but I don't think I'm that talented.
我梦想能够做问答和押韵，但我认为我没有那么有天赋。
Lenny Rachitsky: Planting the seed, I'm planting the seed.
Lenny Rachitsky：播下种子，我正在播下种子。
So I want to get into all the drama there in this world and right now, but I want to first lay the foundation of how you got into this and where this all came from.
所以我想了解这个世界上现在发生的所有戏剧，但我想首先为你如何进入这个领域以及这一切从何而来奠定基础。
So let's talk about just the origin story of you and open source.
那么让我们来谈谈您和开源的起源故事。
More than half of your life, you've been working on open source, you've been working on WordPress, specifically WordPress is such a core community within the open source.
你大半辈子的时间都在致力于开源，你一直在致力于 WordPress，特别是 WordPress 是开源中的一个核心社区。
What was kind of the origin story of you becoming obsessed and, I don't know, open source-pilled?
您对开源的痴迷和（我不知道）开源的起源是怎样的？
Matt Mullenweg: I was a broke kid in Houston, Texas, and my passions were jazz.
Matt Mullenweg：我是德克萨斯州休斯顿的一个破产的孩子，我的热情是爵士乐。
Houston has actually amazing music programs in the public schools, and so I was very fortunate to go to some of the best civil arts programs, including my high school called the High School for Performing and Visual Arts, where Beyoncé went, Robert Glasper, amazing folks went there.
休斯顿的公立学校实际上有很棒的音乐课程，所以我很幸运能够去一些最好的民艺课程，包括我的高中表演和视觉艺术高中，碧昂丝就读过，罗伯特·格拉斯珀也在那里，很多很棒的人都去过那里。
And so music was a big part of my life, and actually economics.
所以音乐是我生活的重要组成部分，实际上也是经济的一部分。
So I had this fun teacher, Scott Roman, who participated in our school in the Federal Reserve Challenge, which was run by the Federal Reserve that sets the interest rates and backs the national banking system and everything like that, has this competition for high school students.
所以我有一位有趣的老师，斯科特·罗曼（Scott Roman），他参加了我们学校的美联储挑战赛，该挑战赛由美联储主办，负责设定利率并支持国家银行体系等，为高中生举办了这项比赛。
It ended up being the first academic competition this art school ever won.
它最终成为这所艺术学校赢得的第一个学术竞赛。
And yeah, first year we kind of didn't get that far, second year we went all the way to nationals so I got to meet Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke was our judge, went to DC.
是的，第一年我们没有走那么远，第二年我们一路进入全国，所以我见到了艾伦·格林斯潘，本·伯南克是我们的法官，去了华盛顿。
So that was very, very exciting.
所以这非常非常令人兴奋。
Matt Mullenweg: And so being exposed to us having a great liberal arts education, the ideas of Frederick Hayek, Agnes Smith, Alexander Hamilton, Ben Franklin, Thucydides, all these sorts of things, that philosophy really influenced me.
马特·穆伦韦格：因此，我们受到了良好的文科教育，弗雷德里克·哈耶克、艾格尼丝·史密斯、亚历山大·汉密尔顿、本·富兰克林、修昔底德等人的思想，所有这些哲学确实影响了我。
And combine that with that, music lessons were expensive, so we couldn't really afford them, so I would barter and trade.
再加上音乐课很贵，所以我们真的买不起，所以我会进行易货贸易。
I'd build websites for local musicians and exchange for lessons.
我会为当地音乐家建立网站并交流课程。
So these websites, I would start to put software on forums or different things and that kind of exposed me to open source.
因此，在这些网站上，我开始将软件放在论坛或不同的东西上，这让我接触到开源。
So my father was also an engineer, he worked for oil companies and things, but his world was all Microsoft, it was all proprietary.
所以我父亲也是一名工程师，他为石油公司和其他公司工作，但他的世界都是微软，都是专有的。
And I always kind of grew up in early days of the internet, so was Slashdots and Jeffrey Zeldman talked about web standards and all these things are really kind of the social milieu and zeitgeist that I grew up in.
我总是在互联网的早期长大，Slashdots 和 Jeffrey Zeldman 也谈论过网络标准，所有这些事情实际上都是我成长的社会环境和时代精神。
Matt Mullenweg: So combining all this philosophy I studied, it felt that open source was actually the most important idea of our generation.
Matt Mullenweg：因此，结合我研究的所有这些哲学，我觉得开源实际上是我们这一代最重要的想法。
If the founding fathers were around today, I think they would be open source advocates.
如果创始人今天还在世，我认为他们会成为开源倡导者。
If you think about it as more and more of our lives are influenced and actually controlled by the software we use, if we don't have fundamental freedoms attached to that software, we're not truly free.
如果你考虑一下，我们的生活越来越多地受到我们使用的软件的影响和实际控制，如果我们没有该软件附带的基本自由，我们就不是真正的自由。
Matt Mullenweg: So WordPress is under license called the GPL, which has four freedoms, the freedom to use the software for any purpose, so we can use it for anything, whether I agree with you or not, the terms of service is you could do whatever you want with it.
Matt Mullenweg：WordPress 获得了 GPL 许可，它有四个自由，即为任何目的使用该软件的自由，所以我们可以将它用于任何用途，无论我是否同意你的观点，服务条款是你可以用它做任何你想做的事情。
The freedom to see how the software works, open up the hood, see how it works, see every line of code, you can audit it.
自由地查看软件如何工作，打开引擎盖，看看它是如何工作的，查看每一行代码，您可以对其进行审核。
The freedom to change it is the third freedom.
改变它的自由是第三种自由。
And then finally the freedom to redistribute those changes so you can share them.
最后，您可以自由地重新分发这些更改，以便您可以共享它们。
And the GPL has a fun little hack where if you share them, you have to provide those same freedoms to who you share it with.
GPL 有一个有趣的小技巧，如果你分享它们，你必须向分享者提供同样的自由。
So it's called a viral open source license as opposed to the MIT license or some of the others that aren't.
因此，它被称为病毒式开源许可证，而不是 MIT 许可证或其他一些非许可证。
Matt Mullenweg: So yeah, just kind of decided that this was what I was going to devote my life to.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，我就决定这就是我要奉献一生的事业。
And so that became getting involved with some early open source projects, WordPress was actually a fork of abandoned open source project called B2.
于是开始参与一些早期的开源项目，WordPress 实际上是被废弃的开源项目 B2 的一个分支。
So the code base actually started was something that was already out there that I was a user and contributor to kind of volunteer on the forums and contribute code.
因此，实际启动的代码库已经存在，我是论坛上的志愿者并贡献代码的用户和贡献者。
And then when it was abandoned, myself and Mike were one of four or five different forks that started that, picked it up and tried to continue it for our own use and then later for our larger community.
然后当它被放弃时，我和迈克是四五个不同的分叉之一，他们开始使用它，并尝试继续它供我们自己使用，然后供我们更大的社区使用。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like a lot of people are coming around to exactly your worldview in, say, I was just watching a video of Jack Dorsey talking about how we're just controlled by algorithms and we don't know how they work and we are not in control of our lives.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉很多人都开始接受你的世界观，比如说，我刚刚观看了 Jack Dorsey 的视频，他谈论我们如何被算法控制，而我们不知道它们如何工作，我们无法控制自己的生活。
Have you seen that video?
你看过那个视频吗？
Matt Mullenweg: No, but I actually love that.
Matt Mullenweg：不，但我真的很喜欢这样。
Also, some people who maybe made their first billion or whatever from proprietary software then come back and it's so cool to see folks like Marc Andreessen or Bill Gurley be huge advocates for open source.
此外，一些可能通过专有软件赚到第一个十亿美元或其他什么的人然后又回来了，看到像 Marc Andreessen 或 Bill Gurley 这样的人成为开源的大力倡导者真是太酷了。
I actually remember one of my early meetings with Andreessen Horowitz, Marc Andreessen.
我实际上还记得我与安德森·霍洛维茨（Andreessen Horowitz）马克·安德森（Marc Andreessen）的一次早期会面。
I didn't realize that at the time, Tony Schneider and I were sort fundraising and Marc really grilled us, he's like, "How can you build a business on open source?
我没有意识到当时托尼·施奈德和我正在筹款，而马克真的拷问了我们，他说，“你怎么能在开源上建立业务呢？
How can you be remote and distributed?
如何实现远程和分布式？
Look around Silicon Valley, Google, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, every great company has had an office.
环顾硅谷，谷歌、微软、甲骨文、Sun，每一个伟大的公司都拥有办公室。
How are you going to build something that can change the internet with people all around the world?" And just had this long hour long debate and we walked out of that, I was like, "Wow, that was the worst meeting ever.
您将如何与世界各地的人们一起构建能够改变互联网的东西？”刚刚进行了长达一个小时的辩论，然后我们走出了辩论，我当时想，“哇，那是有史以来最糟糕的会议。
They just hate everything we're doing."
他们只是讨厌我们所做的一切。”
Matt Mullenweg: And then the next day they were like, "Hey, we're interested." I was like, "What happened?" I didn't realize that he had this idea where he wanted to attack the ideas and see how we defended it was how they battle tested things.
Matt Mullenweg：然后第二天他们就说，“嘿，我们感兴趣。”我当时想，“发生了什么事？”我没有意识到他有这个想法，他想攻击这些想法，看看我们如何捍卫它，以及他们如何与测试事物进行斗争。
I guess kind of like a Microsoft culture or whatever where you really grill the idea, I just wasn't familiar with that.
我想有点像微软文化或者任何你真正探讨这个想法的地方，我只是对此不熟悉。
But it's so cool now that some of these folks that I've learned so much from are such good advocates for open source.
但现在这太酷了，我从这些人身上学到了很多东西，他们都是开源的优秀倡导者。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's so interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这很有趣。
I just had the Community Notes team on the podcast, and that's an amazing example of open source, Meta is adopting it from Twitter/X.
我刚刚在播客上看到了社区笔记团队，这是一个很棒的开源示例，Meta 正在从 Twitter/X 中采用它。
Speaking of open source, one of the interesting, maybe most common ways people hear about open source these days is AI and AI models, and there's a couple areas here, one is you wrote this really interesting post where you talk about how Meta talks about Llama as an open source project, but you called it a false prophet.
说到开源，当今人们听到开源的最有趣的、也许是最常见的方式之一是人工智能和人工智能模型，这里有几个领域，其中之一是你写了这篇非常有趣的文章，其中你谈论了 Meta 如何谈论 Llama 作为一个开源项目，但你称它为假先知。
What is it about Llama that isn't open source?
Llama 有什么不开源的地方？
What are people missing when they see Llama and they're like, "Oh, Meta is amazing open sourcing everything."
当人们看到 Llama 时，他们会想，“哦，Meta 真是太棒了，开源了一切。”
Matt Mullenweg: Llama, you can obviously download and run locally and all these sorts of things, right?
Matt Mullenweg：Llama，你显然可以在本地下载并运行所有这些东西，对吧？
You don't have to use their SaaS service.
您不必使用他们的 SaaS 服务。
However, there's a clause in it that says if you're above a certain threshold of monthly active users...
但是，其中有一个条款规定，如果您的月度活跃用户超过一定阈值……
Matt Mullenweg: ...
马特·马伦韦格：...
as if you're above a certain threshold of monthly active users.
就好像您的每月活跃用户数超过了某个阈值。
I forget what it is.
我忘记那是什么了。
It's big.
它很大。
It's like 750 million, so it's pretty high.
好像是7.5亿，相当高了。
You need a license from them.
您需要他们的许可。
And so that does not give you the freedom to use the software for any purpose.
因此，您不能自由地出于任何目的使用该软件。
If at some point you have to ask for permission, you're kind of at the whims of this company who you might be aligned with or you might be an enemy with.
如果在某些时候你必须请求许可，那么你可能会受到这家公司的突发奇想，你可能与该公司结盟，也可能与该公司为敌。
And also, how do you define that?
另外，你如何定义它？
So, for example, on WordPress, our products don't have 750 million monthly active registered users, but we reach billions of people per month in terms of visitors.
例如，在 WordPress 上，我们的产品每月没有 7.5 亿活跃注册用户，但就访问者而言，我们每月达到数十亿人。
So, is that defined?
那么，这样定义了吗？
So, there's just ambiguity there.
所以，那里只是含糊不清。
So, I still think what they've done is amazing and I like that they're releasing it.
所以，我仍然认为他们所做的事情是惊人的，我喜欢他们发布它。
I was very confused for why they insist on calling it open source because they...
我很困惑为什么他们坚持称其为开源，因为他们......
Matt Mullenweg: Actually, Meta has been a huge open source contributor.
Matt Mullenweg：实际上，Meta 一直是一个巨大的开源贡献者。
React.
反应。
They've had incredible improvements to the PHP engine, which we benefit from a lot.
他们对 PHP 引擎进行了令人难以置信的改进，我们从中受益匪浅。
So, they're actually a big open source contributor.
所以，他们实际上是一个重要的开源贡献者。
I think Mark Zuckerberg really understands and loves open source too.
我认为马克·扎克伯格也真正理解并热爱开源。
My best guess now, I don't have any inside information here, but I think they're calling it open source because there's some European regulation about open source versus proprietary AI models.
我现在最好的猜测是，我这里没有任何内部信息，但我认为他们称之为开源是因为欧洲有一些关于开源与专有人工智能模型的法规。
So, I think it might be a weird regulatory thing because clearly they understand this isn't open source.
所以，我认为这可能是一个奇怪的监管问题，因为他们显然知道这不是开源的。
When I wrote the blog post, I was just kind of confused, and thought, "Oh, maybe if I get this message out there, they'll change." And then when they didn't, I was like, "Oh, there must be something else going on.
当我写这篇博文时，我只是有点困惑，心想，“哦，也许如果我把这条信息发布出去，他们就会改变。”然后当他们没有这样做时，我就想，“哦，一定还有其他事情发生。
I think it might be this regulatory thing." We were actually a big part of, actually many, many years ago, I think it was React that they were doing something with a licensing or a patent restriction on, and the WordPress community actually got Meta to change that and reverse something they were doing to lock it down.
我认为这可能是监管问题。”我们实际上是很多很多年前的一个重要组成部分，我认为他们正在做一些带有许可或专利限制的事情，而 WordPress 社区实际上让 Meta 改变了这一点，并扭转了他们正在做的事情来锁定它。
Matt Mullenweg: So, I consider my role as an open source advocate to actually be my primary thing.
Matt Mullenweg：所以，我认为开源倡导者的角色实际上是我的首要任务。
And it's very much my life mission.
这也是我的人生使命。
I hope to work on WordPress the rest of my life, but also just open source in general.
我希望余生都在 WordPress 上工作，但总体来说也只是开源。
I also support Drupal and Joomla.
我还支持 Drupal 和 Joomla。
Anything else that's open source, I'm going to be a supporter of because I think when people choose that versus proprietary software, we're increasing the freedom and liberty in the world.
任何其他开源软件，我都将成为其支持者，因为我认为，当人们选择开源软件而不是专有软件时，我们正在增加世界的自由和自由。
It's incumbent on us to make open source, to make a better user experience, to make a better product so that people choose it, and then the world becomes more free, not less free.
我们有责任开源，打造更好的用户体验，做出更好的产品，让人们选择它，然后世界变得更加自由，而不是更加不自由。
Lenny Rachitsky: It also feels it's important to you to, I don't know, white open source washing, like avoid people using the term when it's not true.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，对你来说，白色开源清洗也很重要，比如避免人们在不真实的情况下使用这个术语。
And it's interesting in this case, that the thing that makes it not truly open source is the limit.
有趣的是，在这种情况下，它不是真正开源的原因是限制。
There's a limit where you can no longer use it the way you want.
有一个限制，您不能再按照您想要的方式使用它。
Is that the issue?
这是问题所在吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah.
马特·穆伦韦格：是的。
And there's actually an open source OSI.
实际上有一个开源 OSI。
There's a formal definition for what makes an open source license.
对于什么是开源许可证有一个正式的定义。
And there's actually many dozens of open source licenses, and sort of public domain licenses and other things.
实际上有几十个开源许可证，以及公共领域许可证和其他东西。
So, it's also their stance that this is not an open source license.
因此，他们的立场也是这不是开源许可证。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something else that I think is really interesting when it comes to AI and open source, you wrote about this and it blew my mind, such a good point, that the code that these models were trained on was open source code because that's all they have access to.
Lenny Rachitsky：当谈到人工智能和开源时，我认为还有一些非常有趣的事情，你写了这篇文章，这让我大吃一惊，这是一个很好的观点，这些模型训练的代码是开源代码，因为这是他们可以访问的所有代码。
They don't have Windows code, they don't have Shopify code.
他们没有 Windows 代码，也没有 Shopify 代码。
And what a cool, I don't know, another success story slash...
我不知道，这是多么酷的另一个成功故事斜线……
I don't know.
我不知道。
I guess, how do you feel about that, that all these AI models are trained on code you wrote in open source community?
我想，您对此有何感想，所有这些人工智能模型都是根据您在开源社区编写的代码进行训练的？
Matt Mullenweg: That's beautiful.
马特·穆伦韦格：那很漂亮。
It's one of the safest things to train on, right, because the license of open source very explicitly allows that.
这是最安全的训练方式之一，对吧，因为开源许可证非常明确地允许这样做。
I also like to think about I have some window where my creative output is useful to society.
我也喜欢考虑我有一些机会让我的创意输出对社会有用。
And if you fast forward like 50 or 100, I do believe that the utility for proprietary software eventually approaches zero.
如果你快进 50 或 100，我确实相信专有软件的效用最终会接近于零。
When we're sending people to Mars, the operating system of the rockets and the devices and everything like that is not going to be built on the Windows NT kernel, as amazing feat of engineering that that proprietary kernel is.
当我们将人类送上火星时，火箭和设备的操作系统以及类似的一切都不会构建在 Windows NT 内核上，而专有内核则是令人惊叹的工程壮举。
It's going to be built on an open source kernel, Linux or BSD or something like that.
它将构建在开源内核、Linux 或 BSD 或类似的内核上。
And so if you want to be part of something that sort of becomes the fabric of humanity's foundation, like things that allows a Cambrian explosion of things built on top of it, a renaissance of ideas, you want to be involved with open source.
因此，如果你想成为人类基础结构的一部分，比如允许在其之上构建事物的寒武纪大爆发，思想的复兴，你想参与开源。
Matt Mullenweg: And so I really hope that more and more people...
Matt Mullenweg：所以我真的希望越来越多的人......
I'm a little bit of an evangelist here.
我在这里有点像传道者。
I'm a missionary, where I really want to encourage more and more people to consider at least making part of their time, even if just a few hours a week, contributing to open source because you could be part of something that is a huge impact.
我是一名传教士，我真的想鼓励越来越多的人考虑至少花一部分时间，即使每周只有几个小时，为开源做出贡献，因为你可以成为产生巨大影响的事情的一部分。
And it's fun, especially if you're a younger developer or designer or PM or whatever, you can't walk up to Facebook and change your home page or say, "I'd like to change this feature," but you could come to an open source project, some of which have hundreds of millions of users.
这很有趣，特别是如果你是一名年轻的开发人员、设计师、产品经理或其他什么人，你无法走到 Facebook 上更改你的主页或说，“我想更改此功能”，但你可以加入一个开源项目，其中一些项目拥有数亿用户。
You could go to WordPress or, gosh, Bitcoin.
你可以去 WordPress 或者，天哪，比特币。
Matt Mullenweg: Or there's all these things are open source, Chromium, Firefox, and you could actually change a feature or project management things or change the design or improve it.
Matt Mullenweg：或者所有这些东西都是开源的，Chromium，Firefox，你实际上可以更改功能或项目管理内容，或者更改设计或改进它。
And that's I think really, really special.
我认为这真的非常特别。
And sort of the thrill for me of knowing that code I wrote is now executing millions of times per seconds and millions of servers around the world, that kind of thrill, that high is, when I first had my first open source contribution, such a thrill.
当我知道我编写的代码现在每秒执行数百万次并在世界各地有数百万台服务器时，我感到很兴奋，当我第一次做出第一个开源贡献时，那种兴奋，那种兴奋，真是太兴奋了。
And I've been sort of chasing that and enjoying that ever since.
从那时起我就一直在追逐并享受它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Say someone wants to actually do this, where do they go?
Lenny Rachitsky：假设有人想要真正做到这一点，他们会去哪里？
How do they do this?
他们是如何做到这一点的？
Do they just pick up a project, go to WordPress.
他们只是选择一个项目，然后去 WordPress。
org and here's how you contribute?
org，这是您如何贡献的？
What's a next step there?
下一步是什么？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, pick a project that you use or like.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，选择一个您使用或喜欢的项目。
That's obviously a nice one.
这显然是一件好事。
For WordPress, we have this...
对于 WordPress，我们有这个...
It's called make.WordPress.org.
它的名称为 make.WordPress.org。
That's where we make WordPress.
这就是我们制作 WordPress 的地方。
And there's different groups, there's accessibility, there's design, there's the core code, there's plugins, there's all sorts of ways.
有不同的群体，有可访问性，有设计，有核心代码，有插件，有各种各样的方式。
So, really whatever your talent is, there's people who translate, there's people who do support, there's people who write documentation, there's people who organize events, so whatever you feel like your talent in the world is either that you have or that you want to cultivate.
所以，无论你的才能是什么，都会有人翻译，有人提供支持，有人编写文档，有人组织活动，所以无论你觉得自己的才能是什么，要么是你拥有的，要么是你想要培养的。
I learned how to code while building WordPress basically.
我基本上是在构建 WordPress 时学习了如何编码。
I didn't have too much formal training there.
我在那里没有接受太多正式培训。
So, it's a great way to your skills as well, and work with some of the best developers and others in the world.
因此，这也是提高您的技能并与世界上一些最好的开发人员和其他人合作的好方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: This also made me think about AI agents are coming around, Devin and all these AI driven coding agents.
Lenny Rachitsky：这也让我想到人工智能代理正在出现，德文和所有这些人工智能驱动的编码代理。
Do you have a prediction at when most of the code contributed to the open source projects will be Devin and AI agents such type projects?
您是否预测何时贡献给开源项目的大部分代码将是 Devin 和 AI 代理此类项目？
Matt Mullenweg: I think Google talked about 25% of their code or characters committed are now sort of AI-assisted, and they're probably on the bleeding edge.
Matt Mullenweg：我认为谷歌谈到了他们 25% 的代码或承诺的角色现在都是人工智能辅助的，而且他们可能处于最前沿。
I don't know how much of WordPress's code right now is AI-assisted or something like that.
我不知道现在 WordPress 的代码有多少是人工智能辅助或类似的。
But I think over the next five years it definitely approaches maybe a majority.
但我认为在接下来的五年里，它肯定会接近大多数。
And I'm actually very, very excited, so one of the big challenges that we have as a very open platform is we have this open plugin and theme architecture, so the 60,000 plugins and themes and the way WordPress works is these plugins and themes can modify every single part of the code, so you can really customize everything.
我实际上非常非常兴奋，所以作为一个非常开放的平台，我们面临的一大挑战是我们拥有开放的插件和主题架构，因此 60,000 个插件和主题以及 WordPress 的工作方式是这些插件和主题可以修改代码的每个部分，因此您可以真正自定义所有内容。
However, many of these plugins and themes don't have the same sort of robust security and review process that core has.
然而，许多这些插件和主题不具备与核心相同的强大安全性和审查流程。
So, that's where when you hear about security issues with WordPress, it's very rarely in core anymore.
因此，当您听到 WordPress 的安全问题时，它已经很少出现在核心问题了。
Matt Mullenweg: We haven't had a remote exploit, knock on wood, it's like I think five or six years or something, but in the plugins it can be somewhat more frequent.
Matt Mullenweg：我们还没有进行过远程攻击，我想大概有五六年了，但在插件中，它可能会更频繁一些。
And so one thing I'm very, very excited about the next year or two is actually more automated scanning because obviously that code basis is so many tens of millions, maybe over 100 million lines of code at this point.
因此，我对未来一两年感到非常非常兴奋的一件事实际上是更加自动化的扫描，因为显然代码基础有数千万行，目前可能超过 1 亿行代码。
It's impossible for humans to review that, so we kind of rely on developers to review that and manage.
人类不可能对其进行审查，因此我们有点依赖开发人员对其进行审查和管理。
And of course, we have bug bounties and everything do that, so when things get reported, we fix it quickly.
当然，我们有错误赏金，一切都是这样做的，所以当事情被报告时，我们会迅速修复它。
But I can't wait for more automated scanning there, and I think that could vastly upgrade the security of open source.
但我迫不及待地希望那里有更多的自动化扫描，我认为这可以极大地提升开源的安全性。
The other thing that's really exciting is right now you see people building apps and stuff and it's just sort of custom generated code, but I think the next generation of these models or sort of the next layer there is because...
另一件真正令人兴奋的事情是，现在你看到人们构建应用程序和东西，这只是一种自定义生成的代码，但我认为这些模型的下一代或下一层是因为......
Matt Mullenweg: As everyone knows, just writing the code is just one part of it.
Matt Mullenweg：众所周知，编写代码只是其中的一部分。
It's maintaining it that really becomes the life cycle of it.
维护它才真正成为它的生命周期。
And Stewart Brand's new book is all about maintenance, which I'm very excited about.
斯图尔特·布兰德的新书都是关于维护的，我对此感到非常兴奋。
He's publishing, I think, with Strike.
我想他正在与《Strike》一起出版。
And it's actually kind of open source.
它实际上是一种开源。
He's open sourcing the book, so you can see it being written online.
他正在开源这本书，这样你就可以在网上看到它的编写过程。
But anyway, to go back, I think that if...
但无论如何，回到过去，我想如果……
And they're starting to do that, is when the open source models you say like, "Hey, build me a website." It actually installs WordPress, and then builds on top of that, and then customizes on top of that.
当你说开源模型像“嘿，给我建立一个网站”时，他们就开始这样做了。它实际上安装了 WordPress，然后在此基础上进行构建，然后在此基础上进行自定义。
Then you get for free that core engine that's always being audited and updated and getting passkey support or whatever the new things are sort of continuously.
然后，您可以免费获得始终经过审核和更新的核心引擎，并获得密钥支持或任何不断出现的新事物。
And then your custom stuff can be on top of that, which I think is actually a lot more powerful than building something proprietary or custom from the ground up.
然后你的定制东西可以在此之上，我认为这实际上比从头开始构建专有或定制的东西更强大。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this book concept about maintenance.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这本书中有关维护的概念。
My sister's partner has this quote that I've always come back to, "Life is maintenance." You basically...
我姐姐的伴侣有句我经常想起的名言：“生活就是维护。”你基本上...
Everything you acquire and deal with...
你获得和处理的一切......
You get a generator for your house, you have to maintain that forever now.
你的房子有一台发电机，你现在必须永远维护它。
You get this backpack, okay, now you have to maintain this thing, keep it nice, nice jacket.
你得到了这个背包，好吧，现在你必须维护这个东西，保持它漂亮，漂亮的夹克。
Everything is maintenance.
一切都是维护。
Everything in your life is just maintenance.
你生活中的一切都只是维护。
And I wonder if that's what the book's about.
我想知道这是否就是这本书的内容。
Matt Mullenweg: Well, that's why I think technical debt is one of the most interesting concepts.
Matt Mullenweg：嗯，这就是为什么我认为技术债务是最有趣的概念之一。
There's so many companies as well that maybe have big market caps, but I feel like they might have billions or tens of billions of dollars of technical debt.
还有很多公司可能拥有很大的市值，但我觉得他们可能有数十亿或数百亿美元的技术债务。
You can see in the interface or how their products integrate with themselves through things.
你可以在界面中看到或者他们的产品如何通过事物与自身集成。
And I think about that a lot in our own company.
我在我们自己的公司里经常思考这一点。
We definitely have some products, almost a little embarrassed coming on because you have such great product people.
我们确实有一些产品，但几乎有点尴尬，因为你们有如此出色的产品人员。
And we have some variable quality around some of our things right now.
现在我们的一些东西的质量参差不齐。
If you check out Gravatar right now, I'm actually really proud of it.
如果你现在查看 Gravatar，我真的会为它感到自豪。
It's I think a really great user experience, very slick.
我认为这是一个非常棒的用户体验，非常流畅。
But there's parts of...
但有部分...
Well, I always say, "I'm the unhappiest WordPress user in the world," so there's parts of WordPress and WordPress.com that I'm a little embarrassed and ashamed of.
嗯，我总是说，“我是世界上最不快乐的 WordPress 用户”，所以 WordPress 和 WordPress.com 的某些部分让我感到有点尴尬和羞愧。
Matt Mullenweg: We have a really large surface area that we cover with relatively few people, and so there's some parts we haven't looked at in a little while that we need to get around to.
马特·穆伦韦格（Matt Mullenweg）：我们的工作区域非常大，但人员相对较少，因此有些部分我们已经有一段时间没有考虑过，需要抽出时间来处理。
And it's a big focus for us this year, is actually kind of going back to basics, back to core, and improving all of those kind of nooks and crannies of the user experience, and also ruthlessly editing and cutting as much as possible, because we just launched a lot of stuff over the past 21 years that maybe is not as relevant today or it doesn't need to be there.
今年我们的一大重点，实际上是回归基础，回到核心，改善所有这些用户体验的角落和缝隙，并尽可能地进行无情的编辑和剪切，因为我们在过去 21 年里刚刚推出了很多东西，这些东西可能与今天不相关，或者不需要存在。
Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds like excellent work for this AI agent of the future that's coming soon.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于即将推出的未来人工智能代理来说，这听起来是一项出色的工作。
There's one other area I want to mine and that's community, community building, building this ecosystem that you've created around WordPress.
我还想挖掘另一个领域，那就是社区、社区建设、构建您围绕 WordPress 创建的生态系统。
It might be one of the most successful, biggest communities on the internet.
它可能是互联网上最成功、最大的社区之一。
I'm curious just what lessons you've learned about what it takes to build a successful community, online especially.
我很好奇您在如何建立一个成功的社区（尤其是在线社区）方面学到了哪些经验教训。
Matt Mullenweg: This is probably influenced by economics and jazz.
Matt Mullenweg：这可能是受到经济和爵士乐的影响。
And economics is all about systems thinking.
经济学就是系统思考。
And what are the incentive structures of how you set something up?
您设立某些项目的激励结构是什么？
And then in jazz is all about collaboration.
在爵士乐中，合作就是一切。
So, if there's something unique I have for your audience, I would say it's don't just build a product, build a movement.
因此，如果我为你们的观众提供一些独特的东西，我会说它不仅仅是打造一个产品，而是打造一场运动。
And to the extent that we've been successful, I think it's that we give people something to believe in, a philosophy, a worldview.
就我们所取得的成功而言，我认为我们给了人们一些值得信仰的东西，一种哲学，一种世界观。
Even silly things, like we had this tagline in the footer of the WordPress.org when we started, it's still there, it says, "Code is poetry." This idea that we're not just writing code, we're trying to create something that can have elements.
即使是愚蠢的事情，比如我们开始时在 WordPress.org 的页脚中添加了这样的标语，它仍然在那里，它说：“代码就是诗歌。”我们不只是编写代码，我们还试图创建可以包含元素的东西。
We name every WordPress release after a jazz musician for the past 60 releases or so.
在过去 60 个左右的版本中，我们以爵士音乐家的名字命名每个 WordPress 版本。
So, those sorts of things bring a little art and soul and some fun into it as well.
所以，这些东西给它带来了一点艺术和灵魂，也带来了一些乐趣。
Matt Mullenweg: It doesn't have to be serious all the time.
马特·穆伦韦格（Matt Mullenweg）：不必一直都很严肃。
I think they can give something to believe in and work on and aim towards that's more than just a paycheck or more than just the utility, the base utility of the software.
我认为他们可以提供一些值得相信和努力的东西，并且目标不仅仅是薪水或不仅仅是实用程序，软件的基本实用程序。
So, it's not just the software, it's also like: how are the meetups?
所以，这不仅仅是软件的问题，还有：聚会怎么样？
How are people getting together?
人们如何聚在一起？
What events are you running?
您正在举办哪些活动？
Are there forums?
有论坛吗？
How do people contribute?
人们如何做出贡献？
Is there office hours or town halls?
有办公时间或市政厅吗？
I do a lot of Q&A.
我做了很多问答。
So, what are the things you're doing around the software that's allowing people to get involved, that's inviting contributions, that's allowing people to build on top of it?
那么，您围绕该软件做了哪些事情来允许人们参与、邀请贡献、允许人们在其基础上进行构建？
I've studied platforms quite a bit like Microsoft and others, so our whole ecosystem of plugins and themes is part of what's made WordPress so successful, and the moat that we have.
我研究过类似微软和其他公司的平台，所以我们的整个插件和主题生态系统是 WordPress 如此成功的一部分，也是我们拥有的护城河。
Matt Mullenweg: The core features of a CMS, you can kind of write with a few developers in a few weeks or something.
Matt Mullenweg：CMS 的核心功能，您可以在几周之内与几个开发人员一起编写。
It's not...
这不是...
It's basically CRUD operations, but to replicate those 60,000 plugins and themes, gosh, no one's done it.
它基本上是 CRUD 操作，但是要复制那 60,000 个插件和主题，天哪，没有人做到过。
That's a huge moat.
那是一条巨大的护城河。
And proprietary services can create platforms.
专有服务可以创建平台。
Shopify has a third-party ecosystem and things like that, but it's never a true platform.
Shopify 拥有第三方生态系统和类似的东西，但它从来都不是一个真正的平台。
And a true platform, it's when your ecosystem makes more money than the core does.
当你的生态系统比核心系统赚更多的钱时，才是真正的平台。
And so many times, whether it was the Facebook platform, I'm putting that in air quotes, or the Shopify platform, companies build on it and then they get the rug pulled out from under them because they're too successful.
很多时候，无论是 Facebook 平台，还是 Shopify 平台，公司都建立在它的基础上，然后他们就因为太成功而被扫地出门。
Matt Mullenweg: And then the sort of thing you're building on decides, "Oh, we want that money or we want that growth." And they sort of change the API or remove your access.
Matt Mullenweg：然后你所构建的东西决定，“哦，我们想要这笔钱，或者我们想要那种增长。”他们会更改 API 或删除您的访问权限。
There's so many examples of this, especially on, I think, Facebook and Shopify and others, where people got too successful and all of a sudden they knock on the door and they say, "Oh, that's a mighty nice app you have there.
这样的例子有很多，尤其是在 Facebook 和 Shopify 等网站上，人们太成功了，突然他们敲门说：“哦，你们那里有一个非常棒的应用程序。
I'd love to offer you some warrants where we own a bunch of your company or we're going to shut it off," or those sorts of things.
我很乐意向您提供一些认股权证，我们拥有您公司的大量股份，否则我们将关闭它，”或诸如此类的事情。
Matt Mullenweg: And again, you don't have freedom unless you're building on open source.
Matt Mullenweg：再说一遍，除非您基于开源进行构建，否则您没有自由。
That's why more and more companies and people are choosing...
这就是为什么越来越多的公司和个人选择...
If they're going to build a business on top of something else, if you build it on an open source, you have that guarantee.
如果他们要在其他东西之上建立业务，如果你在开源基础上建立它，你就有这样的保证。
Even if I grew devil horns and became evil and automatic decided to know whatever, WordPress would still belong just as much to you as it would to me.
即使我长出了恶魔的角，变得邪恶，自动决定知道什么，WordPress 仍然属于你，就像它属于我一样。
People can fork the code.
人们可以分叉代码。
They can still own it.
他们仍然可以拥有它。
They can still build on top of it.
他们仍然可以在此基础上进行构建。
So, those things I think are really important.
所以，我认为这些事情非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a segue to all of this drama that's swirling around you these days.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些天你周围发生的所有戏剧真是一个连续的故事。
I think a lot of people do feel like there's devil horns that have appeared, and so I'm excited to dig into this stuff.
我想很多人确实觉得恶魔角已经出现了，所以我很高兴能深入研究这个东西。
I find that every time you go on a podcast these days, if we don't get into this, everyone's just like, "Why is Matt not answering these questions?" Let's get into the hard stuff.
我发现现在每次你上播客时，如果我们不讨论这个问题，每个人都会说，“为什么马特不回答这些问题？”让我们开始讨论困难的事情吧。
So, I'm going to ask you some hard questions.
所以，我要问你一些棘手的问题。
For people that don't know what the hell's going on, they're like, "What are you even talking about?" or just have a sense something is swirling with WordPress and, Matt, I don't know what's going on, what's just like the high level overview of what's going on?
对于那些不知道到底发生了什么的人来说，他们会说：“你到底在说什么？”或者只是感觉到 WordPress 中正在发生一些事情，马特，我不知道发生了什么，就像正在发生的事情的高级概述一样？
Matt Mullenweg: So ,to set it, you can get WordPress from WordPress.com or us, but also you can get WordPress from dozens of other hosts.
Matt Mullenweg：因此，要设置它，您可以从 WordPress.com 或我们获取 WordPress，而且您也可以从数十个其他主机获取 WordPress。
The biggest in the world are like GoDaddy, Hostinger, Newfold.
世界上最大的网站包括 GoDaddy、Hostinger、Newfold。
It's not the biggest, but it is in the top 10 or something.
它不是最大的，但也能进入前 10 名之类的。
It has about 700,000 WordPress installs.
WordPress 的安装量约为 700,000 次。
There's a company called WP Engine.
有一家公司叫WP Engine。
In 2019, WP Engine started as very WordPress oriented and they contributed a lot to the community and everything like that.
2019 年，WP Engine 开始非常面向 WordPress，他们为社区和类似的事情做出了很多贡献。
They were very respectful about distinguishing themselves from core, so people really realized it wasn't officially associated and everything.
他们非常尊重将自己与核心区分开来，所以人们真正意识到它并没有正式关联以及一切。
But in 2019 they got bought out by a private equity firm called Silver Lake.
但在 2019 年，他们被一家名为 Silver Lake 的私募股权公司收购。
And anyone who follows business, when private equity buys something, there's some the good ones, but there's also many, many stories about how they can really hollow things out, really optimize our profits, become user hostile.
任何关注商业的人，当私募股权购买一些东西时，有一些是好的，但也有很多很多关于他们如何真正掏空东西、真正优化我们的利润、变得对用户充满敌意的故事。
Matt Mullenweg: Actually recently read a story where one of the reasons there was a shortage of firetrucks these LA fires was that the fire truck manufacturers have been rolled up by a private equity firm, and they've been raising prices and their supply constraint and things like that.
Matt Mullenweg：实际上最近读到一个故事，其中洛杉矶火灾中消防车短缺的原因之一是消防车制造商已被一家私募股权公司收购，他们一直在提高价格和供应限制等。
So, there's literally a shortage in firetrucks right now because of private equity.
因此，由于私募股权投资，目前消防车确实短缺。
And of course, if you look at healthcare or other things, there's so many examples of where private equity can really, I think, be one of the darker parts of capitalism.
当然，如果你看看医疗保健或其他方面，我认为有很多例子可以证明私募股权确实可以成为资本主义的黑暗部分之一。
So, since 2019, WP Engine has kind of changed a bit, and they really stopped contributing to core and they started using the trademark in a way that was very confusing in the marketplace.
因此，自 2019 年以来，WP Engine 发生了一些变化，他们真的停止了对核心的贡献，并开始以一种在市场上非常混乱的方式使用该商标。
And particularly in the past year, year and a half or so, we're just getting lot...
特别是在过去一年半左右的时间里，我们得到了很多……
I get a lot of support for requests for WP Engine.
我得到了很多对 WP Engine 请求的支持。
Matt Mullenweg: And when we do surveys, we'd find that 20, 30, 40% of people thought they were officially associated because how they were using our logo and presenting the brand and everything like that was very confusing to people.
Matt Mullenweg：当我们进行调查时，我们发现 20%、30%、40% 的人认为他们是正式关联的，因为他们如何使用我们的徽标、展示品牌以及诸如此类的事情让人们感到非常困惑。
And as you know, if you don't protect a trademark, you lose it.
如您所知，如果不保护商标，您就会失去它。
And also the version of WordPress that they were offering actually wasn't our core vision of the functionality of WordPress.
而且他们提供的 WordPress 版本实际上并不是我们对 WordPress 功能的核心愿景。
So to save money, they were actually turning off features like revisions.
因此，为了省钱，他们实际上关闭了修订等功能。
So, a cool part about WordPress that...
那么，WordPress 的一个很酷的部分是......
actually one of my favorite features, is every change to every single post or page is saved forever, just like Wikipedia.
实际上，我最喜欢的功能之一是对每个帖子或页面的每次更改都会永久保存，就像维基百科一样。
So, if you make a mistake, you can always undo it.
因此，如果您犯了错误，您随时可以撤消它。
And of course, as building a great product, that sort of user safety of an undo is so critical.
当然，作为构建一个伟大的产品，这种撤消的用户安全非常重要。
Matt Mullenweg: Now, obviously you have to store these revisions, so it takes up more database space.
Matt Mullenweg：现在，显然你必须存储这些修订，因此它占用了更多的数据库空间。
Now, it's trivial, it's megabytes, so on modern databases is not that big a deal.
现在，它是微不足道的，它是兆字节，所以在现代数据库中并不是什么大问题。
But to save money, they actually turned us off, so they broke the undo feature in WordPress to essentially save money.
但为了省钱，他们实际上关闭了我们，所以他们破坏了 WordPress 中的撤消功能，以本质上省钱。
And so you have this thing where they're offering something called WordPress.
所以他们提供了名为 WordPress 的东西。
I think I refer to it as a bastardized hacked up version of it.
我想我把它称为它的一个混蛋破解版本。
It's diluting our brand, and then also people think it's official.
它正在淡化我们的品牌，然后人们也认为这是官方的。
So, even close friends of mine were like, "Oh yeah, I signed up for this thing.
所以，即使是我的亲密朋友也会说，“哦，是的，我报名参加了这个活动。
I thought I was supporting you."
我以为我是在支持你。”
Matt Mullenweg: And it's came to a head.
Matt Mullenweg：事情已经到了紧要关头。
So, past 18 months they've also...
所以，过去 18 个月他们还...
We contacted them and said, "Hey, you need a trademark license or something if you're going to use this or change how you're doing things," and tried to negotiate something and had many different term sheets over the months offered and different things, and they just kept stretching it out.
我们联系了他们并说，“嘿，如果你要使用它或改变你的做事方式，你需要商标许可或其他东西”，并尝试进行谈判，并在提供的几个月内提供了许多不同的条款清单和不同的东西，而他们只是不断地延长它。
And I was like, "What's going on here?" And I think part of what was going on is last year they tried to sell the company.
我当时想，“这里发生了什么事？”我认为去年他们试图出售公司是部分原因。
So, private equity usually holds things for five to seven years, so they were kind of five years into this.
因此，私募股权通常持有五到七年，所以他们已经进入了五年。
They tried to shop it around and sell it.
他们试图货比三家并出售。
They weren't able to find a buyer.
他们无法找到买家。
Matt Mullenweg: They said, "Well, they don't have any IP, and it feels like they're using your trademark, so they're going to have trouble with you.
Matt Mullenweg：他们说，“好吧，他们没有任何知识产权，而且感觉他们在使用你的商标，所以他们会给你带来麻烦。
They don't have a license and things like that." So, while they were negotiating with us, it appears they were also preparing this lawsuit against us.
他们没有执照之类的东西。”所以，他们在与我们谈判的同时，似乎也在准备针对我们的诉讼。
So again, I've been very fortunate in my business career that we've invested in dozens of companies, we've acquired lots of things, by and large, 99% of the time people I've dealt with in business have been ethical, straightforward, honest.
再说一次，我在我的商业生涯中非常幸运，我们投资了数十家公司，我们收购了很多东西，总的来说，我在商业上打交道的人 99% 都是有道德的、直率的、诚实的。
I haven't really faced any baldfaced lying or duplicitous behavior.
我还没有真正遇到过任何厚颜无耻的谎言或两面派行为。
Very, very rarely people who just say one thing and do another or are fraudulent in their behavior, but I think that was happening here.
很少有人会说一套做一套，或者在行为上存在欺诈行为，但我认为这种情况正在发生。
Matt Mullenweg: And so I also just wasn't prepared for it.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我也没有为此做好准备。
I was thinking I was a little naive and kind of didn't realize what was going on for a while.
我以为我有点天真，有一段时间没有意识到发生了什么。
So, it came to a head, and at WordCamp US in September, I was like, "Okay, well, if you're still not going to even agree to negotiate, I'm going to give this presentation about how I think both private equity has messed up a lot of open source projects in the past, and how in particular, has done some very bad or evil things." And they were like, "Okay, go for it." So, I did the presentation.
所以，事情到了紧要关头，在 9 月份的 WordCamp US 上，我当时想，“好吧，好吧，如果你仍然不同意谈判，我将做这个演讲，讲述我认为私募股权公司过去如何搞砸了很多开源项目，特别是如何做了一些非常糟糕或邪恶的事情。”他们说：“好吧，那就去做吧。”所以，我做了演示。
I think it was on a Thursday or a Friday.
我认为那是在星期四或星期五。
Kind of spicy.
有点辣。
People were like, "Oh, can't believe he did that."
人们就像是，“哦，不敢相信他这么做了。”
Matt Mullenweg: And then on Monday they launched this with Quinn Emanuel, which is kind of the baddest, nastiest law firm, it's like who Elon uses when he sues people, launched this big multimillion dollar lawsuit against both me personally and WordPress.org, so the WordPress community and Automattic.
Matt Mullenweg：然后周一，他们与 Quinn Emanuel 一起发起了这项诉讼，这是一家最糟糕、最肮脏的律师事务所，就像 Elon 起诉别人时使用的律师事务所一样，对我个人和 WordPress.org、WordPress 社区和 Automattic 发起了价值数百万美元的大型诉讼。
And also they're spending millions of dollars a month on both lawyers and PR.
而且他们每个月在律师和公关上花费数百万美元。
So, they're doing...
所以，他们正在做...
If you read...
如果你读...
Oh gosh, who was the celebrity that they were recently talking about this, like dark PR stuff where they're boosting things on social networks?
哦天哪，他们最近谈论的名人是谁，比如他们在社交网络上宣传的黑暗公关内容？
Matt Mullenweg: So, all that stuff is happening, so there's...
Matt Mullenweg：所以，所有这些事情都在发生，所以......
And I warned people.
我警告人们。
I think in the presentation I say, "Hey, there's going to be a smear campaign against me." And internally in the company, I was like, "Hey, they're going to dig up everything that's ever happens.
我想在演讲中我会说，“嘿，将会有一场针对我的抹黑运动。”在公司内部，我想，“嘿，他们会挖掘曾经发生过的一切。
Anything bad anyone's ever said to me is going to all of a sudden become a news item." And that has happened.
任何人对我说过的任何坏话都会突然成为新闻。”这已经发生了。
It's been true.
这是真的。
So, right now there is a portion of the internet that does think I have devil horns and everything.
所以，现在互联网上确实有一部分人认为我有恶魔之角等等。
Fortunately, this is not my first rodeo.
幸运的是，这不是我第一次牛仔竞技表演。
I know a lot of people think like, "Oh, Matt was nice for 20 years, and then got mean." But one thing, if you're really open and open source, sometimes you have to stand up the bullies, and you have to fight to protect your open source ideals.
我知道很多人都会想，“哦，马特 20 年来一直很好，然后变得很刻薄。”但有一件事，如果你真的开放、开源，有时候你就得顶住恶霸，你就得为保护你的开源理想而奋斗。
Matt Mullenweg: Otherwise people could take advantage of it in a way that ultimately can destroy everything you've created.
Matt Mullenweg：否则人们可能会利用它，最终摧毁你创造的一切。
So, this is probably the fourth time the internet has decided I'm the main character or really evil.
所以，这可能是互联网第四次决定我是主角还是真正的邪恶。
And the previous ones we don't remember anymore.
而之前的那些我们已经不记得了。
It's Hot Nacho or the Easter Massacre of Themes or these are the things that aren't even on my Wikipedia page anymore, but those seemed like really big deals at the time.
这是热门的烤干酪辣味玉米片或复活节主题大屠杀，或者这些甚至不再出现在我的维基百科页面上的东西，但这些在当时看起来确实是件大事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Those are your incidents.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些都是你的事件。
Those weren't like historical battles.
这些不像历史战役。
Matt Mullenweg: No, no, these are things that, yeah, I was involved in.
Matt Mullenweg：不，不，是的，我参与了这些事情。
Matt Mullenweg: Including some things I had screwed up, like Hot Nacho was definitely a screw-up on my end very early in the WordPress side, but...
Matt Mullenweg：包括我搞砸的一些事情，比如Hot Nacho 绝对是我在 WordPress 方面很早就搞砸的事情，但是......
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Okay, I'm not going to follow those threads, but those are great names.
好吧，我不会关注这些线索，但这些都是很棒的名字。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Loom.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Loom 为您带来。
Loom lets you record your screen, your camera, and your voice to share video messages easily.
Loom 可让您录制屏幕、相机和语音，以便轻松共享视频消息。
Record a Loom and send it out with just a link to gather feedback, add context or share an update.
记录 Loom 并仅通过链接发送出去，以收集反馈、添加上下文或共享更新。
So, now you can delete that novel-length email that you were writing.
所以，现在您可以删除您正在编写的那封小说长度的电子邮件。
Instead, you can record your screen and share your message faster.
相反，您可以录制屏幕并更快地分享您的消息。
Loom can help you have fewer meetings, and make the meetings that you do have much more productive.
Loom 可以帮助您减少会议次数，并提高会议效率。
Meetings start with everyone on the same page and end early.
会议开始时，每个人都意见一致，并提前结束。
Problem solved, time saved.
问题解决了，时间也节省了。
We know that everyone is in a one-take wonder when it comes to recording videos, so Loom comes with easy editing and AI features to help you record once and get back to the work that counts.
我们知道，在录制视频时，每个人都会对一次拍摄感到惊奇，因此 Loom 配备了简单的编辑和 AI 功能，可帮助您录制一次并重新开始重要的工作。
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使用 Loom 节省时间、协调团队、保持联系并完成更多工作。
Now part of Atlassian, the makers of Jira.
现在是 Jira 的制造商 Atlassian 的一部分。
Try Loom for free today at Loom.com/Lenny.
立即访问 Loom.com/Lenny 免费试用 Loom。
That's L-O-O-M.com/Lenny.
那是 L-O-O-M.com/Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, you mentioned this talk you gave at WordCamp, and you said at the beginning of the talk, like, "I'm-"
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，你提到了你在 WordCamp 上的演讲，你在演讲开始时说，“我是——”
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
at WordCamp, and you said at the beginning of the talk...
在 WordCamp 上，你在演讲开始时说......
oh no, afterwards you were like, "I was really nervous to give this talk," and obviously you can see why.
哦不，后来你会说，“我对这次演讲感到非常紧张”，显然你可以明白为什么。
Just what finally convinced you this was time?
到底是什么让你最终相信现在是时候了？
Was it just to go, as you described, scorched earth nuclear?
正如你所描述的那样，只是为了去焦土核吗？
Was it like WordCamp is coming up and this is the moment to go public with this?
是不是WordCamp 即将来临，现在是公开这一点的时候了？
Was there something else that kind of crossed the line?
还有其他什么事情越界了吗？
Matt Mullenweg: It was a unique opportunity because we were essentially saying that, hey, WP Engine isn't going to be allowed to sponsor WordCamps anymore.
Matt Mullenweg：这是一个独特的机会，因为我们本质上是在说，嘿，WP Engine 将不再被允许赞助 WordCamps。
They're not going to be a...
他们不会成为一个...
Because we had, again, up to that point really done everything to bring them in and have to be part of the community.
因为到目前为止，我们已经尽了一切努力让他们加入并成为社区的一部分。
So I really had to also explain to our community, hey, why we're going to be excluding this company that a lot of people saw as doing good.
所以我真的还必须向我们的社区解释，嘿，为什么我们要排除这家很多人认为做得很好的公司。
If you go to the WP Engine website, they have whole pages about how much they contribute and give back and how they...
如果您访问 WP Engine 网站，他们有一整个页面介绍他们的贡献和回馈以及他们如何...
they do kind of greenwash or open source wash a lot of what they do.
他们做了一些绿色清洗或开源清洗他们所做的很多事情。
So all their marketing branding was around this positive stuff, and so I was like, "Hey, we need to just explain this case."
所以他们所有的营销品牌都是围绕这些积极的东西，所以我想，“嘿，我们需要解释一下这个案例。”
Matt Mullenweg: But yeah, again, my defaults and how we've worked with, by the way, every other company in the WordPress space, many of which are much, much larger and make sometimes billions more in revenue than WP Engine, is collaborative.
Matt Mullenweg：但是，是的，顺便说一句，我的默认设置以及我们与 WordPress 领域的所有其他公司的合作方式都是协作的，其中许多公司规模大得多，有时比 WP Engine 的收入多出数十亿美元。
So if there's a trademark violation, usually it's not even lawyers get involved.
因此，如果发生商标侵权，通常连律师也不会介入。
It's just like there's a email, we have a conversation, we do a call, we talk about it.
就像有一封电子邮件，我们进行对话，我们打电话，我们谈论它。
That's how things get resolved and that's my default.
事情就是这样解决的，这也是我的默认。
I'm a lover, not a fighter, and that's why this thing doesn't happen very often.
我是一个爱人，而不是一个战士，这就是为什么这种事情不会经常发生。
I like to say that, yes, if WordPress community or whatever was doing this like every year or every couple months, yeah, you should worry about it, but it kind of happens every like 10 years.
我想说的是，是的，如果 WordPress 社区或其他任何东西每年或每几个月都会这样做，是的，你应该担心它，但这种情况每隔 10 年就会发生一次。
Lenny Rachitsky: So if I could mirror back the issues that you ran into, and I want to go through this a little bit more, the problems you had with WP Engine in this case.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，如果我能反映您遇到的问题，并且我想再详细介绍一下您在本例中使用 WP Engine 时遇到的问题。
One is they were using the trademark both WordPress and WooCommerce without license, and they're just abusing it, confusing people.
一是他们在未经许可的情况下使用了 WordPress 和 WooCommerce 商标，他们只是滥用它，让人们感到困惑。
A lot of people thought WP Engine was actually Automattic and WordPress official.
很多人认为 WP Engine 实际上是 Automattic 和 WordPress 官方的。
They weren't contributing to the project.
他们没有为该项目做出贡献。
They were just making basically a bunch of money and not doing the work off this company they bought and they're just kind of hollowing it out as you described.
他们基本上只是赚了一大笔钱，而不是从他们购买的这家公司做工作，他们只是像你所描述的那样把它掏空了。
And then they're also cutting corners, making the product worse, and that kind of reflects on the whole brand of WordPress.
然后他们还偷工减料，使产品变得更糟，这反映了 WordPress 的整个品牌。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I'm curious just which of those three, or is it something even else that most bothered you about this?
我很好奇这三个中的哪一个，或者还有什么其他事情最让你烦恼吗？
What's just like, "This is the thing that's eating me"?
就像“这就是正在吞噬我的东西”一样？
If I had to guess, it'd be damaging the legacy potentially of this thing you've worked on for most of your life.
如果我不得不猜测的话，这可能会损害你一生中大部分时间致力于的这件事的遗产。
Maybe it's that, maybe it's just taking advantage of the community.
也许就是这样，也许只是利用了社区的优势。
What's the thing that you think is the root of this, just like, "Just this needs to stop"?
您认为问题的根源是什么，就像“这需要停止”？
Matt Mullenweg: Well, I guess the one thing I'd add to your list was as this was happening they were pretending to good faith negotiate.
马特·穆伦韦格：嗯，我想我要添加到你的清单中的一件事是，当这种情况发生时，他们假装进行善意谈判。
And in fact, at one point the executive, we were talking about her joining Automattic and running WordPress out of Oregon and when she thought...
事实上，有一次，这位高管，我们正在谈论她加入 Automattic 并在俄勒冈州运营 WordPress，当她想……
the VP and she going to sell, she was thinking about what was next.
副总裁和她要出售时，她正在考虑下一步该怎么做。
So yeah, a lot of this stuff was, I think that duplicitous behavior also kind of forced us to an edge more than even those other things that you mentioned.
所以，是的，很多事情是，我认为两面派的行为也迫使我们比你提到的其他事情更接近优势。
There's lots of companies that don't contribute back and it's not as big a deal.
有很多公司没有回馈，这没什么大不了的。
But yeah, the legal issue was definitely the trademark thing.
但是，是的，法律问题绝对是商标问题。
So what pushed it to the edge?
那么是什么将其推向了边缘呢？
I think just the magnitude of the issue.
我认为问题的严重性。
They would refer to themselves as WordPress Engine in client meetings and other things.
他们会在客户会议和其他活动中将自己称为 WordPress Engine。
They were very cavalier about how they would imply their association with the project.
他们对如何暗示自己与该项目的联系非常漫不经心。
Lenny Rachitsky: Obviously, as you can tell on socials, a lot of people are just really upset and a lot of people blame you.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，正如你在社交媒体上看到的那样，很多人真的很沮丧，很多人都责怪你。
There's just, like I said, every time you're on a podcast or on Twitter, people are just like, "Matt, what about this?
就像我说的，每次你上播客或推特时，人们都会说，“马特，这个怎么样？
Why this sucks?
为什么这很糟糕？
Why are you doing this?" And I want to go through some of those things, but just not many people go through...
你为什么要这么做？”我想经历其中一些事情，但没有多少人经历过……
I think you were like a hundred percent beloved hero of open source and internet and now you're in this...
我认为你就像是开源和互联网领域百分百受人爱戴的英雄，而现在你却身处其中......
a lot of people don't like you.
很多人不喜欢你。
Just as a human, just what is that?
作为一个人，那到底是什么？
How do you work through that?
你是如何解决这个问题的？
How do you deal with that?
你如何处理这个问题？
What's that been like?
那是什么样子的？
Matt Mullenweg: If you were kind of inside baseball with WordPress, it's actually a lot of people who have been unhappy with me over the years, and when we introduced something like Gutenberg, people hated it.
Matt Mullenweg：如果你是 WordPress 的内部人士，那么实际上多年来很多人都对我不满意，当我们引入像古腾堡这样的东西时，人们讨厌它。
Actually when we introduced a visual editor, people hated it.
事实上，当我们引入可视化编辑器时，人们讨厌它。
Matt Mullenweg: These are huge controversies in the WordPress history.
Matt Mullenweg：这些是 WordPress 历史上的巨大争议。
There actually hasn't been a fork or WordPress around all this latest stuff, but there was when we introduced Gutenberg.
实际上，所有这些最新的东西还没有出现分叉或 WordPress，但当我们引入古腾堡时就出现了。
It's one called ClassicPress where people actually forked the software.
这是一款名为 ClassicPress 的软件，人们实际上是在其中分叉了该软件。
So how I would describe it is previously like 1% of the world thought I was terrible, and now I feel like it's up to like 4 or 5%.
所以我会如何描述它，以前世界上有 1% 的人认为我很糟糕，现在我觉得这个比例上升到了 4% 或 5%。
So it's still not the majority, but as you know, something negative you feel seven times more than something positive.
所以它仍然不是大多数，但如你所知，你对消极事物的感受比积极事物多七倍。
And when people are angry with you, it's kind of like restaurant reviews or whatever, they're more likely to leave a bad review than a good review.
当人们对你生气时，就像餐馆评论或其他什么一样，他们更有可能留下差评而不是好评。
Matt Mullenweg: The people who WordPress, 98% of all the core developers have stayed and contribute and are working on the next version and are supportive and all these sorts of things.
Matt Mullenweg：WordPress 的人们，98% 的核心开发人员都留下来并做出贡献，正在开发下一个版本，并且给予支持等等。
And part of the reason these folks are so good is they don't spend all their time on Twitter and Reddit arguing with folks, and also the arguments could be...
这些人如此优秀的部分原因是他们不会把所有时间都花在 Twitter 和 Reddit 上与人们争论，而且争论也可能是……
they're very frustrating because people don't engage in good faith.
他们非常令人沮丧，因为人们没有真诚地参与。
They don't really change their mind when new facts are introduced.
当新的事实出现时，他们并没有真正改变主意。
Matt Mullenweg: And so I've done my best actually because from the open source side I'm really used to engaging with things, and I think that's been one thing I've learned from this is in some forums it doesn't matter how you engage and especially if you have bots or other things running there.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我实际上已经尽力了，因为从开源方面来看，我真的习惯于参与事物，我认为这是我从中学到的一件事，在某些论坛中，你如何参与并不重要，特别是如果你有机器人或其他东西在那里运行。
I'd leave comments on Reddit and immediately get like 40 downvotes.
我在 Reddit 上发表评论，立刻就会收到大约 40 票反对。
I'm like, "Hey, this is a article about me and I'm adding a fact to the thing.
我想，“嘿，这是一篇关于我的文章，我正在添加一个事实。
Why is it getting downvoted?
为什么它被低估了？
This is very relevant to the discussion." But it's literally hidden.
这与讨论非常相关。”但它实际上是隐藏的。
So when you see that thread, you'd have to click like three or four times to see the comment I had left, and so it can really change the perception.
因此，当您看到该帖子时，您必须点击三到四次才能看到我留下的评论，因此它确实可以改变看法。
And then when you read these things, I think it's just very human nature.
当你读到这些东西时，我认为这就是非常人性的。
Even folks very close to me, if you read a thread and it's all super negative, it's hard to not be influenced by that because we're social creatures.
即使是与我非常亲近的人，如果你读到一条帖子，发现内容都是超级负面的，你也很难不受到影响，因为我们是社会生物。
Matt Mullenweg: Now the good news is I've had lots of credibility weighted support from people like Marc Benioff or other open source leaders or the core people in WordPress, Matias, Mary Hubbard, all the core committers.
Matt Mullenweg：现在的好消息是，我得到了来自 Marc Benioff 或其他开源领导者或 WordPress 核心人员、Matias、Mary Hubbard 以及所有核心提交者的大量可信度加权支持。
The international community actually, like just in Japan, they don't care about this stuff.
事实上，国际社会，就像日本一样，他们并不关心这些东西。
So these are actually, if you look by number of commits and lines of code and everything like that, the folks who actually are most crucial in WordPress.
所以，如果你从提交数量和代码行数以及类似的东西来看，这些人实际上是 WordPress 中最关键的人。
So I feel like that's been a good balance as well for me because there are days where I'm like, "Gosh, am I an idiot?" or it could be really down reading all these things.
所以我觉得这对我来说也是一个很好的平衡，因为有时候我会想，“天哪，我是个白痴吗？”或者读完这些东西可能真的很沮丧。
So that is part of what allows me to balance and get back to that sort of positive, optimistic space that I think you need to be in to do great software and great work.
因此，这是让我能够平衡并回到那种积极、乐观的空间的一部分，我认为你需要处于这种空间才能做出出色的软件和出色的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
The internet can be brutal.
互联网可能是残酷的。
Let me go through a couple of specific things that people pointed out because I think you've been on a lot of podcasts and people haven't asked you these questions and I think a lot of people are just like, "But, Matt, what about this?
让我回顾一下人们指出的一些具体事情，因为我认为你参加过很多播客，但人们没有问过你这些问题，我认为很多人都会说，“但是，马特，这个怎么样？
This is really bad." So let me just ask you a couple of things here.
这真的很糟糕。”所以让我在这里问你一些事情。
One is there's just like a frustration in the community around the instability that this has just caused in the WordPress community.
其一是社区对这件事刚刚在 WordPress 社区造成的不稳定感到沮丧。
I'll read you a couple quotes.
我给你读几句名言。
"Real people are receiving fewer projects on WordPress because C-suite are seeing WordPress as unstable because of this feud, and I work at Enterprise and we're very concerned about the stability of this platform and our projects." Just thoughts on that and the impact that it's had on the community.
“真正的人在 WordPress 上收到的项目越来越少，因为高层管理人员认为 WordPress 由于这种不和而不稳定，而我在 Enterprise 工作，我们非常担心这个平台和我们项目的稳定性。”只是对此及其对社区的影响的思考。
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, I think this is until this gets resolved...
Matt Mullenweg：是的，我认为直到这个问题得到解决为止......
which by the way I hope it is soon.
顺便说一句，我希望很快就能实现。
I think there's no business reason for this to continue.
我认为没有商业理由让这种情况继续下去。
I really hope that they come to a settlement or something.
我真的希望他们能够达成和解或其他什么。
We're ready.
我们准备好了。
They could end this tomorrow if they wanted to.
如果他们愿意的话，明天就可以结束这一切。
WP Engine could.
WP 引擎可以。
We can't.
我们不能。
We're just defending right now.
我们现在只是防守。
So it's really incumbent on them.
所以这确实是他们义不容辞的责任。
All of our competitors, by the way, are like, "Great.
顺便说一句，我们所有的竞争对手都会说：“太棒了。
WordPress, the king on the hill, all of a sudden we can use this." And so there's also not just from WP Engine, but also from all the competitors to WordPress, and all the people who would love to capture some market share, they're really leaning into this.
WordPress，山上之王，突然之间我们就可以使用它了。”因此，不仅来自 WP Engine，还来自 WordPress 的所有竞争对手，以及所有希望占领一些市场份额的人，他们确实倾向于这一点。
So I've seen white papers, I've seen all sorts of things where people talk about this.
所以我看过白皮书，看过人们谈论这个问题的各种内容。
Matt Mullenweg: We're actually in the next couple of days going to publish something really cool on the WordPress.org blog though that shows if you actually look at the numbers, like the activity, number of commits, plugin updates, downloads, installs of WordPress since September 20th when this all started, it's quite healthy.
Matt Mullenweg：实际上，我们将在接下来的几天内在 WordPress.org 博客上发布一些非常酷的内容，不过，如果您真正查看自 9 月 20 日这一切开始以来 WordPress 的活动、提交数量、插件更新、下载和安装等数字，就会发现它非常健康。
And so I'm not saying that there isn't examples of where someone lost a project or something like that.
所以我并不是说没有人失去项目或类似事情的例子。
I'm sure it's happened.
我确信这已经发生了。
It's the internet's big.
互联网很大。
WordPress has so many millions of users and developers and everything that you're going to get some example.
WordPress 拥有数以百万计的用户和开发人员以及您将获得的所有示例。
But by the numbers things are actually quite healthy, and in some ways it's not that there's no press is bad press, it's raised the awareness of WordPress quite a bit.
但从数字来看，情况实际上相当健康，在某些方面，并不是说没有媒体就是坏媒体，它大大提高了 WordPress 的知名度。
So people who haven't talked about WordPress in years are now like, "Oh, Let's talk about it." And so a little bit of drama I think, I wouldn't do this all the time, but a little bit can be a good thing.
因此，那些多年没有谈论过 WordPress 的人现在会说，“哦，我们来谈谈它吧。”所以我想，我不会一直这样做，但一点点可能是一件好事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so one of the most common frustrations I've seen on the internet, people complaining is around the trademark.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我在互联网上看到的最常见的挫败感之一是人们抱怨商标。
I don't know all the details, but my understanding is there's kind of a...
我不知道所有细节，但我的理解是有一种......
you moved the trademark to be owned by the foundation and Automattic is exclusive rights to use the trademark.
您将该商标移至基金会所有，并且 Automattic 拥有该商标的专有权。
And I think people are like, "Oh, I thought it was the foundation owned it, but maybe Matt still owns it and then you're trying to monetize it through this agreement with WP Engine." Is there anything you can share there that'll make people feel and see your side of the story?
我认为人们会说，“哦，我以为是基金会拥有它，但也许马特仍然拥有它，然后你试图通过与 WP Engine 的协议将其货币化。”您可以在那里分享什么，让人们感受到并看到您的故事吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, this is totally fair because it's complicated, but people are saying this has been private.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，这是完全公平的，因为它很复杂，但人们说这是私人的。
This has all been very public and documented on the internet from the beginning.
这一切从一开始就已经非常公开并记录在互联网上。
So WordPress.org has always been me personally, and I think because it's...
所以 WordPress.org 一直是我个人的，我认为因为它......
part of the reason we started there is .
我们开始那里的部分原因是。
com was not available when we started.
我们开始时 com 不可用。
So that's why we started on the .org and things like that.
这就是我们开始开发 .org 之类的原因。
But I think people also assume .org means nonprofit or something, and that's sometimes true but it's not always.
但我认为人们也认为 .org 意味着非营利组织或其他东西，有时确实如此，但并非总是如此。
It's not a requirement of the .org domain.
这不是 .org 域的要求。
Then when I founded Automattic and when we did register the trademark that actually was registered under Automattic.
然后，当我创立 Automattic 时，当我们注册了实际上在 Automattic 下注册的商标时。
So it used to be, for the first five years of the project or whatever, that Automattic just owned everything outright.
因此，过去，在该项目的前五年或其他什么时间里，Automattic 完全拥有一切。
And again, I had investors and the board and that was under the control of that.
再说一遍，我有投资者和董事会，并且都在他们的控制之下。
Matt Mullenweg: Now, as Automattic became more successful I was able to consolidate some voting rights and other things and at least later advocate.
Matt Mullenweg：现在，随着 Automattic 变得更加成功，我能够巩固一些投票权和其他事物，至少在后来得到倡导。
Also remember, I was like 21 when all this was happening, so I was not maybe the most savvy about legal stuff or didn't always have the best advice.
还要记住，这一切发生时我才 21 岁，所以我可能不是最了解法律问题的人，也不总是能得到最好的建议。
So later as I learned more, I was like, "Oh, I want to actually take this out of the company and create a nonprofit." And so we ended up creating a nonprofit.
所以后来当我了解更多的时候，我想，“哦，我想把它从公司中拿出来创建一个非营利组织。”所以我们最终创建了一个非营利组织。
Now the rules around 501(3)(C) nonprofits run the IRS are actually very strict.
现在，美国国税局 (IRS) 运营的 501(3)(C) 非营利组织的规则实际上非常严格。
So that's also something as people assume, it's like, oh, doesn't the nonprofit run the software, and we applied for that originally and it was denied by the IRS.
因此，这也是人们所假设的，就像，哦，非营利组织不是在运行该软件吗？我们最初申请了该软件，但被国税局拒绝了。
Matt Mullenweg: So we actually weren't able to put WordPress.org or the software itself under the nonprofit, but we were able to have sort of an educational purview.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我们实际上无法将 WordPress.org 或软件本身纳入非营利组织，但我们能够拥有某种教育权限。
So what was eventually approved was sort of running the meetups and other things for WordPress, doing educational stuff.
因此，最终获得批准的是为 WordPress 举办聚会和其他活动，以及进行教育活动。
We sponsor a lot of learn to code or running workshops in other countries.
我们在其他国家赞助了很多学习编码或举办研讨会。
We have this cool thing called do_action where we'll do a weekend where we take a bunch of nonprofits and build websites for them and stuff like that.
我们有一个叫做 do_action 的很酷的东西，我们将在周末与一群非营利组织合作，为他们建立网站之类的东西。
So the nonprofit does a lot of exciting things there and then also negotiated with the investors and everyone at Automattic to actually put the trademark under the foundation.
因此，该非营利组织在那里做了很多令人兴奋的事情，然后还与投资者和 Automattic 的每个人进行谈判，以真正将商标置于基金会之下。
Matt Mullenweg: Now the compromise there was that Automattic at this point is running WordPress.com.
Matt Mullenweg：现在的妥协是 Automattic 目前正在运行 WordPress.com。
So to continue running that, which at the time had already tens of millions of users and everything, it needed a commercial license.
因此，为了继续运行当时已经拥有数千万用户和一切的东西，它需要商业许可证。
And so the compromise is that the foundation would kind of own the trademark and license it out for non-commercial purposes.
因此，妥协的办法是基金会将拥有该商标并将其许可用于非商业目的。
I had a license to run WordPress.org because obviously I need that.
我有运行 WordPress.org 的许可证，因为显然我需要它。
And then Automattic would retain the commercial license and the ability to sub-license that, so to sell that to others.
然后 Automattic 将保留商业许可和分许可的能力，以便将其出售给其他人。
So this was kind of the grand compromise and create this tripartite structure.
所以这是一种重大妥协并创建了这种三方结构。
I was very inspired by the three branches of government.
我受到政府三个部门的启发。
So there's sort of power in each of those that I think sort of checks and balances each side of it which is on purpose.
因此，我认为每一个方面都有某种力量，可以有意地制衡和平衡各个方面。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Okay, I get why it's complicated.
好吧，我明白为什么这么复杂了。
I get why people would be confused.
我明白为什么人们会感到困惑。
This makes me think about OpenAI had a really strange structure and that got them in a lot of trouble, and it feels like when you're 21 you're like, "Oh, this makes a lot of sense.
这让我想到 OpenAI 有一个非常奇怪的结构，这让他们陷入了很多麻烦，感觉就像当你 21 岁的时候，你会想，“哦，这很有道理。
What a great concept we've come up here," and then all this complexity just adds to a lot of confusion around what's going on.
我们在这里提出了一个多么伟大的概念，”然后所有这些复杂性只会增加对正在发生的事情的很多混乱。
So thank you for addressing that.
谢谢你解决这个问题。
Another, there's a kind of related question I've seen a couple of times is just why don't you let that .org be run by a community.
另外，有一种相关的问题我已经见过好几次了，那就是为什么不让 .org 由社区来运营。
Why not just give that up to someone else and not just you that's there?
为什么不把它交给别人而不仅仅是你呢？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, and the frame of that question is kind of interesting because it implies I'm the only person making WordPress which is obviously not true.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，这个问题的框架有点有趣，因为它暗示我是唯一制作 WordPress 的人，这显然是不正确的。
If you look at the daily commits and activity and everything, it is run by the community.
如果您查看每日提交和活动以及所有内容，您会发现它是由社区运营的。
So it's hundreds of volunteers every day that are actually doing the day-to-day work and making the daily decisions and everything happens.
因此，每天都有数百名志愿者实际上在做日常工作并做出日常决策，一切都会发生。
So there has been a radical delegation.
因此出现了一个激进的代表团。
However, there's ultimately a hierarchy, and I'm the CEO, so I'm like the final final decision-maker.
然而，最终还是有一个等级制度的，而我是首席执行官，所以我就像是最终的最终决策者。
Matt Mullenweg: And so I think what people advocate for around this governance point of view is like, okay, well, install a board on top of you that ultimately makes decisions for the product or things like that.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我认为人们围绕这种治理观点所倡导的就是，好吧，好吧，在你的上方安装一个董事会，最终为产品或类似的事情做出决策。
And there are other open source projects that have this structure.
还有其他具有这种结构的开源项目。
None of them have been successful as WordPress.
它们都没有像 WordPress 那样成功。
So I think your audience in particular, is great software ever created by committee or does it more often reflects a vision of a leader or something that can allow us to...
因此，我认为您的受众尤其是委员会创建的出色软件，或者它是否更经常反映领导者的愿景或可以让我们...
and I think particularly WordPress not just remaining relevant but actually accelerating growth over huge technological shifts over the past two decades.
我尤其认为 WordPress 不仅保持了相关性，而且在过去二十年的巨大技术变革中实际上加速了增长。
Matt Mullenweg: When we started there was dynamic web apps or DHTML or JavaScript wasn't really a thing, and then the social web and then iPhones and then all this sort of stuff that's changed over time, and we've surfed a lot of these technological changes which is very, very hard to do.
Matt Mullenweg：当我们开始时，动态网络应用程序或 DHTML 或 JavaScript 并不是真正的东西，然后是社交网络，然后是 iPhone，然后是所有这些随着时间的推移而变化的东西，我们已经经历了很多这些技术变革，这是非常非常困难的。
Most products do not remain relevant over multiple generational changes like that, and that's been because sometimes we've had to make very unpopular decisions.
大多数产品在这样的多代变化中都无法保持相关性，这是因为有时我们不得不做出非常不受欢迎的决定。
Gutenberg is a huge part of why WordPress is relevant today, and it's actually an open source project we do.
古腾堡是 WordPress 当今重要的一个重要原因，它实际上是我们所做的一个开源项目。
It's the block editor.
这是块编辑器。
It's actually bigger than WordPress because it's not just used on WordPress, it's used on every WordPress site, but also like Tumblr, other people.
它实际上比 WordPress 更大，因为它不仅在 WordPress 上使用，而且在每个 WordPress 网站上使用，而且还像 Tumblr 和其他人一样使用。
I would actually love if Squarespace or Wix adopted Gutenberg.
如果 Squarespace 或 Wix 采用古腾堡，我真的会很高兴。
It's meant to be like a really open source framework.
它就像一个真正的开源框架。
Matt Mullenweg: But anyway, if we had voted for whether we should do that or not, everyone would've voted against it or the majority would have.
Matt Mullenweg：但无论如何，如果我们投票决定是否应该这样做，那么每个人都会投票反对，或者大多数人都会投票反对。
It was really a few core people of us in the community, Matias, myself, other core contributors, Ella, Andrew Ozz, that said, "Hey, this is the future and it's going to take 10 years to do and it's going to be a long bet.
事实上，我们社区中的一些核心人员，Matias，我自己，其他核心贡献者，Ella，Andrew Ozz，说，“嘿，这就是未来，这将需要 10 年的时间才能完成，这将是一个漫长的赌注。
It's going to suck for the first three or four years, and so everyone's going to hate it in the beginning."
前三四年会很糟糕，所以一开始每个人都会讨厌它。”
Matt Mullenweg: But then later with iteration, we've had I think now 200 releases of Gutenberg.
Matt Mullenweg：但后来经过迭代，我们现在已经发布了 200 个古腾堡版本。
We do sort of a very strict every two weeks release schedule since it started.
自开始以来，我们每两周都会制定一个非常严格的发布时间表。
It's going to get pretty good, and it's at that point now where it's actually getting pretty darn good.
它会变得非常好，而且现在已经变得非常好了。
And the next phase of it, actually I'm so excited about, it's going to be collaboration.
事实上，我非常兴奋，下一阶段将是合作。
So all the real time co-editing like Google Docs and Notion has, it's coming out to this open source thing, and with the technological changes, we're actually able to do it peer-to-peer.
因此，所有像 Google Docs 和 Notion 这样的实时共同编辑，都出现在这个开源的东西中，并且随着技术的变化，我们实际上能够进行点对点的操作。
So we don't need a centralized server.
所以我们不需要集中式服务器。
We can use WebRTC and other cool technologies.
我们可以使用 WebRTC 和其他很酷的技术。
Matt Mullenweg: I mean, anyway, I'm going sidelining, but I think that sort of more...
Matt Mullenweg：我的意思是，无论如何，我要靠边站，但我认为这更多......
and if you look at a lot of great companies, there's a board or whatever but ultimately there's an executive, and some of the most iconic companies of our generations are ones where the executive retains some majority of voting control or other things like that which I've been able to do with Automattic and with WordPress.
如果你看一下很多伟大的公司，有一个董事会或其他什么，但最终有一个执行官，而我们这一代中一些最具标志性的公司是执行官保留了部分多数投票控制权或其他事情的公司，就像我用 Automattic 和 WordPress 所做的那样。
And I definitely think about succession planning and everything like that, but if or when I'm gone I don't want to pass it to a committee.
我肯定会考虑继任计划和类似的事情，但如果或当我离开时，我不想将其传递给委员会。
I want to pass it to someone else who can have a role similar to mine and really sort of try to be a steward.
我想把它传递给其他人，他可以扮演与我类似的角色，并且真正尝试成为一名管家。
Matt Mullenweg: There ultimately is a check and balance on that because, again, the community could leave.
Matt Mullenweg：最终会对此进行制衡，因为社区可能会离开。
They could fork the software.
他们可以分叉该软件。
People could change.
人们可能会改变。
And so you're "in charge" quote, unquote, but you're also at surface.
因此，你是“负责人”（引用或取消引用），但你也处于表面。
So it's a lot more being like a mayor than a CEO and that you ultimately are accountable to the folks who are contributing and new users and everything like that.
因此，更像是市长而不是首席执行官，并且您最终要对做出贡献的人和新用户以及类似的事情负责。
So I do feel like there is a balance there.
所以我确实觉得那里存在平衡。
Some of this as well is that there's some people who aren't part of leadership who feel like they should be.
其中一部分原因还在于，有些人原本不属于领导层，但他们却觉得自己应该成为领导层。
So if you look at the Yoast or Korean things, these are folks who actually don't have commit status.
因此，如果你看看 Yoast 或韩国的事情，就会发现这些人实际上没有提交状态。
They haven't contributed WordPress over the years and serve our normal hierarchy of the meritocracy of how you get the ability to commit code or things like that.
多年来，他们没有为 WordPress 做出贡献，也没有为我们正常的精英制度层次结构服务，即如何获得提交代码或类似事物的能力。
They're like, "Hey, I want to lead a release." That's cool, dude, but there's a process.
他们就像，“嘿，我想领导一个版本。”这很酷，伙计，但是有一个过程。
We have different people lead releases over the years, but they kind of worked their way up to it.
多年来，我们有不同的人领导发布，但他们都在努力做到这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: This makes so much sense to me.
Lenny Rachitsky：这对我来说非常有意义。
That's one of the themes of the podcast, just the power of a singular visionary and leader, founder mode as we've all heard is trending these days.
这是播客的主题之一，我们都听说过，独特的远见卓识和领导者的力量，创始人模式正在流行。
Lenny Rachitsky: I wouldn't say that it was.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不会这么说。
Yeah, Brian shared it, but then Paul Graham pointed afterwards and then I renamed the title of that episode Founder Mode to
是的，布莱恩分享了它，但后来保罗·格雷厄姆指出，然后我将那集的标题“创始人模式”重命名为
Lenny Rachitsky: If I zoom out, what I'm sensing here is there's people that have this ideal of how something like this should run, but they've never actually worked at a place where a nonprofit board runs it, runs a thing, and have seen what that actually looks like.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果我缩小范围，我在这里感觉到有人对这样的事情应该如何运行有这样的理想，但他们从未真正在非营利组织董事会运行它的地方工作过，运行过某件事，并且见过它的实际情况。
And so I think there's a big disconnect between the ideal in theory and how does great stuff get built.
所以我认为理论上的理想与伟大的东西如何构建之间存在很大的脱节。
Matt Mullenweg: And one of the things I think we've tried to demonstrate with WordPress is actually it's kind of like a open source side and a nonprofit side and a for-profit working in concert.
Matt Mullenweg：我认为我们试图用 WordPress 展示的一件事实际上是它有点像开源方面、非营利方面和营利性协同工作。
And one of the things people don't necessarily appreciate as much about why WordPress has been so successful is because of Automattic and things like Akismet doing anti-spam or WordPress.com having a free version of WordPress that is introduced over a hundred million people to the software in a way that you could just sign up for free.
人们不一定会意识到 WordPress 如此成功的原因之一是 Automattic 和 Akismet 等公司在反垃圾邮件方面的作用，或者 WordPress.com 拥有免费版本的 WordPress，以免费注册的方式向超过一亿人介绍了该软件。
You don't have to pay for hosting or download it yourself or things like that.
您无需支付托管费用或自行下载或类似的事情。
Matt Mullenweg: So that kind of for-profit, nonprofit, open source, working in concert I think is a really interesting model that we're starting to see a lot more companies do.
Matt Mullenweg：因此，我认为这种营利性、非营利性、开源、协同工作的模式非常有趣，我们开始看到更多的公司这样做。
It's actually very exciting to me that some of the things that were controversial when we started open source or distributed work are now the default for so many exciting new startups, and this whole ecosystems of really, really cool open source, like Cal.com for open source Calendly.
事实上，令我非常兴奋的是，当我们开始开源或分布式工作时，一些有争议的事情现在已经成为许多令人兴奋的新初创公司的默认设置，以及整个非常非常酷的开源生态系统，例如开源 Calendly 的 Cal.com。
There's so much cool stuff out there that actually there's a whole generation of younger entrepreneurs that I find very, very inspiring because they're also bringing modern design and web development and everything to open source which is very neat.
那里有很多很酷的东西，实际上有整整一代年轻的企业家，我发现他们非常非常鼓舞人心，因为他们还将现代设计和网络开发以及一切都引入了开源，这非常整洁。
Lenny Rachitsky: I anticipate a blog post one day, "I told you so, guys." Open source, remote work, I imagine there's a few more things there.
Lenny Rachitsky：我预计有一天会发表一篇博文，“我告诉过你们了，伙计们。”开源、远程工作，我想还有更多的东西。
There's one other thing I want to address.
我还想谈一谈另一件事。
I haven't seen you talk about this.
我没看到你谈过这个。
It comes up a bunch.
它出现了一堆。
It's around, this is very the weeds, but I think it's really important to people, and there's something here for a lot of people, the way you guys forked Advanced Custom Fields.
它就在附近，这非常杂草，但我认为这对人们来说非常重要，而且这里对很多人来说都有一些东西，就像你们分叉高级自定义字段的方式一样。
So I think what happened here is you guys forked an existing plugin, I think somebody else's plugin, and then kind of pushed people to this plugin versus the original plugin.
所以我认为这里发生的事情是你们分叉了一个现有的插件，我认为是其他人的插件，然后将人们推向这个插件而不是原始插件。
What can you share there?
你可以在那里分享什么？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, this is very complex.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，这非常复杂。
So WordPress.org has kind of like a app store.
WordPress.org 有点像应用程序商店。
After WP Engine started suing us, creating millions of dollars of legal fees and things, we blocked their access to WordPress.org.
在 WP Engine 开始起诉我们并产生数百万美元的法律费用等之后，我们阻止了他们对 WordPress.org 的访问。
So this plugin they had, Advanced Custom Fields, wasn't able to be updated.
因此，他们拥有的这个插件“高级自定义字段”无法更新。
At the same time a number of security issues were found in it, including some we reported, and so there had to be an update to it.
同时，其中发现了许多安全问题，包括我们报告的一些问题，因此必须对其进行更新。
So we're like, "Okay, we'll ship the update for you essentially." And then we were like, "Okay, I think we need to call it something different because it actually isn't theirs anymore." And they still offer Advanced Custom Fields on their own and people can download it from them, et cetera.
所以我们会说，“好吧，我们基本上会为您提供更新。”然后我们就想，“好吧，我想我们需要给它起个不同的名字，因为它实际上不再是他们的了。”他们仍然自己提供高级自定义字段，人们可以从他们那里下载，等等。
So we made Secure Custom Fields which was originally under the same directory listing, so again, because we want all the users of it to get the security updates.
因此，我们制作了最初位于同一目录列表下的安全自定义字段，再次强调，因为我们希望它的所有用户都能获得安全更新。
This is controversial, and actually they actually got a preliminary injunction, so the judge said "Reverse this." So this has all been reversed by the way.
这是有争议的，实际上他们确实得到了初步禁令，所以法官说“推翻这个”。所以这一切都被逆转了。
Matt Mullenweg: There now is a separate fork under separate listing of Secure Custom Fields which actually we have a team on it, developers, designers, and we're creating...
Matt Mullenweg：现在在安全自定义字段的单独列表下有一个单独的分叉，实际上我们有一个团队，包括开发人员、设计师，我们正在创建......
just like WordPress was a fork, we've actually forged this.
就像 WordPress 是一个分叉一样，我们实际上已经伪造了它。
Actually WooCommerce was a forge.
实际上，WooCommerce 是一个锻造厂。
A lot of things are forks.
很多东西都是叉子。
So we forked it and now have a new name, new everything that we're doing a lot of product innovation and improving it.
所以我们分叉了它，现在有了一个新的名字，新的一切，我们正在进行大量的产品创新和改进。
So there's a separate project now and separate directory listing for Secure Custom Fields.
因此，现在有一个单独的项目和安全自定义字段的单独目录列表。
That's kind of fast-forward to today.
这有点快进到今天。
They now have access to WordPress.org again.
他们现在可以再次访问 WordPress.org。
They have updated the plugin.
他们已经更新了插件。
Everything's back to how it was before, and there's now this separate thing called Secure Custom Fields that the WordPress project is officially supporting.
一切都回到了以前的样子，现在 WordPress 项目正式支持了一个名为“安全自定义字段”的独立功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm hearing essentially you blocked WP Engine as a part of this, we're just going to simplify WordPress, reduce confusion.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听说你们实际上阻止了 WP Engine 作为其中的一部分，我们只是要简化 WordPress，减少混乱。
They're being bad actors in the space, so we're going to block them, and in that block, there's like a dependency where people couldn't do a thing that they needed to do.
他们在这个领域是坏人，所以我们要阻止他们，在那个区块中，就像一种依赖，人们无法做他们需要做的事情。
So you're like, "And the one that exists, there's a problem with it, so we're going to make that dependence...
所以你会说，“存在的那个存在问题，所以我们要建立这种依赖......
release a version that you can actually use and fix the security issues."
发布一个您可以实际使用并修复安全问题的版本。”
Matt Mullenweg: That was the intention.
马特·穆伦韦格：这就是目的。
I think that there was a lot of perceptions around it that were different, but yeah, that was the goal.
我认为围绕它有很多不同的看法，但是，是的，这就是目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Okay.
好的。
Great.
伟大的。
So maybe just the last question.
所以也许只是最后一个问题。
We talked about just a lot of people see you with devil horns these days.
我们谈到最近很多人都看到你带着恶魔角。
They think you're doing bad things and they don't like the approach you're taking.
他们认为你在做坏事，并且不喜欢你采取的方法。
You talked about there's this WP Engine spending a lot of money on PR and hiring this agency.
您谈到 WP Engine 在公关和雇用该机构方面花费了大量资金。
I guess is there anything else that...
我想还有其他什么吗...
why do you think so many people are looking at you as the bad guy?
你认为为什么这么多人把你视为坏人？
Is it mostly that you think...
是不是大部分你都认为...
just where do you think it's coming from?
你认为它来自哪里？
Why are comments always so negative?
为什么评论总是那么负面？
And we talked a bit about it, but anything more there?
我们对此进行了一些讨论，但还有其他的吗？
Matt Mullenweg: I don't know if I can say why.
Matt Mullenweg：我不知道我是否能说出原因。
I do think one thing I've learned is that a lot of these things we've talked about are nuanced.
我确实认为我学到的一件事是我们谈论的很多事情都是微妙的。
So one essentially thing I've learned in this process is that it's hard to explain this stuff in 240 characters or the-
所以我在这个过程中学到的一件重要的事情是，很难用 240 个字符或 -
Matt Mullenweg: ...
马特·马伦韦格：...
40 characters.
40 个字符。
Some mediums do not lend themselves well to discussing this.
有些媒体不适合讨论这个问题。
And so I tried, but I'm participating less in Reddit or Twitter and trying to do more long form things like this, where you can actually have the context and things can't be taken out of context.
所以我尝试过，但我较少参与 Reddit 或 Twitter，而是尝试做更多类似这样的长篇大论的事情，这样你实际上可以了解上下文，而且事情不能断章取义。
Also, I think there's something where social networks sometimes are tuned to promote outrage.
另外，我认为社交网络有时会被用来煽动愤怒。
And it was very interesting.
这非常有趣。
We ran a sentiment analysis recently.
我们最近进行了情绪分析。
We were kind of looking at different social networks, analyzing all the comments, and we found, actually, that the negative, the sort of devil horn fraction on, what was it, like LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram was like 8%.
我们查看了不同的社交网络，分析了所有的评论，我们发现，实际上，负面的、魔鬼角的比例大约是 8%，比如 LinkedIn、Facebook、Instagram。
It's actually pretty small.
它实际上很小。
On Reddit, it was bigger, I forget the exact number, but on Twitter it was 52%.
在 Reddit 上，这个比例更大，我忘记了具体数字，但在 Twitter 上，这个比例是 52%。
You're like, whoa, what's going on there?
你会想，哇，那里发生了什么事？
Matt Mullenweg: And so there's something in the algorithm, and again, we can't see how the algorithm works or what the incentives are, but it can promote the most controversial things.
Matt Mullenweg：所以算法中有一些东西，再说一遍，我们看不到算法是如何工作的，也看不到激励措施是什么，但它可以促进最具争议的事情。
I think that's not a novel perception.
我认为这并不是什么新奇的看法。
There's a lot of discussion around how social media might be creating more fragmentation in society, and I think this is just an example of that, where when you have networks, when people are getting the majority of the information from social networks, and those networks are not designed to provide nuance or balance, or even promote truth necessarily, misinformation can get spread far more than...
关于社交媒体如何在社会中造成更多的碎片化有很多讨论，我认为这只是一个例子，当你拥有网络时，当人们从社交网络获取大部分信息时，而这些网络的设计目的并不是提供细微差别或平衡，甚至不一定促进真相，错误信息的传播可能远远超过......
What's the saying?
这句话怎么说来着？
Like a lie gets around the world seven times before truth has time to-
就像谎言在真相来得及之前已经传遍了世界七次一样——
Matt Mullenweg: Get out of bed, yeah.
Matt Mullenweg： 起床，是的。
There's been a lot of that.
这样的事已经有很多了。
So there's actually been a lot of misinformation, untrue things that go viral, and then the untrue thing gets like 700,000 views, and the correction gets like 20,000 views.
因此，实际上有很多错误信息、不真实的事情在网上疯传，然后不真实的事情获得了大约 700,000 次观看，而更正则获得了大约 20,000 次观看。
So there's been some of that happening.
所以已经发生了一些这样的事情。
When mainstream media has covered this, it's actually been a lot better.
当主流媒体报道这一点时，情况实际上好很多。
So there's been some actually really good articles in some business publications and other things that sort of look at a more nuanced and balanced view.
因此，在一些商业出版物和其他出版物中，有一些实际上非常好的文章，这些文章着眼于更细致和平衡的观点。
And I think the podcast have been pretty good, but definitely on Twitter, I think you can get a version of all of this that is both, I think, not entirely true and also pretty more negative.
我认为播客非常好，但绝对在 Twitter 上，我认为你可以得到所有这些的版本，我认为，这既不完全正确，而且也更加消极。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I imagine people are going to be like, "Lenny, you didn't ask him this thing.
我想人们会说，“莱尼，你没有问他这个问题。
Here's the thing he said that I want to learn more about." I'm sure I missed some stuff, but from an outsider's perspective, this all make sense.
这是他说的，我想了解更多。”我确信我错过了一些东西，但从局外人的角度来看，这一切都是有道理的。
There's a company, I don't think PE companies are bad innately, but their job is buy a company and make it run more efficiently, and then oftentimes sell it for more.
有一家公司，我不认为PE公司本质上是坏的，但他们的工作就是收购一家公司并使其运行更有效，然后经常以更高的价格出售它。
So it makes sense that they buy a company, make it more efficient, cut some corners, don't put a lot of effort into making it awesome, even though I'm sure there's awesome people working in there, trying really hard to make it great.
因此，他们购买一家公司，提高效率，走捷径，不花太多精力让它变得很棒，这是有道理的，尽管我确信有很棒的人在那里工作，非常努力地让它变得很棒。
And basically what I'm feeling is they got to a point where this is hurting the ecosystem.
基本上我的感觉是他们已经到了损害生态系统的地步。
They're feeling really dishonest with working with you, and there's a stalling technique.
他们感觉与你合作非常不诚实，而且有一种拖延技巧。
And so, makes sense to me why you just have to stand up and fight back.
所以，对我来说，为什么你必须站起来反击是有道理的。
And it's hard, it's hard to do that.
这很难，很难做到这一点。
Is there anything else along this thread before we move on to a different topic, anything else you want to share before we close out this chapter?
在我们转向不同的主题之前，这条线索还有其他什么吗？在我们结束本章之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Well, if people have more questions, they can come to WordCamp Asia.
Matt Mullenweg：嗯，如果人们有更多问题，可以来 WordCamp Asia。
We're going to do an open Q&A there.
我们将在那里进行公开问答。
We do town halls in the WordPress.org Community.
我们在 WordPress.org 社区中举办市政厅。
There's a Slack people can get on and ask questions.
人们可以通过 Slack 来提问。
So there is kind of a lot of open ways to engage, and I'm definitely happy to do that.
因此，有很多开放的参与方式，我很乐意这样做。
I'm probably not going to do it on Twitter as much, but when there's longer form opportunities to have a discussion here, particularly if it's more like real time, like this, I'm very happy to.
我可能不会在 Twitter 上做太多的事情，但是当有更长时间的机会在这里进行讨论时，特别是如果它更像是实时的，就像这样，我很高兴。
Matt Mullenweg: And that's why if you look at it, there's actually a big difference.
Matt Mullenweg：这就是为什么如果你仔细观察，就会发现实际上存在很大差异。
WP Engine has not done any podcasts and no press.
WP Engine 没有做过任何播客，也没有媒体报道。
They don't respond to journalists, they don't talk about this.
他们不回应记者，也不谈论此事。
And I've done the opposite, where I'm really trying to be out there and engaged.
而我却做了相反的事情，我真的很努力地参与其中。
And everyone's like, "Why don't you just let the lawyers do the talking?" And it's like, well, but we have community, and also I feel like we're in the right.
每个人都会说，“你为什么不让律师来说话呢？”就像，嗯，但我们有社区，而且我觉得我们是对的。
So when you're in the wrong, you probably say only have the lawyers talk.
所以当你错了的时候，你可能会说只有律师来说话。
When you're in the right, I think you should be out there and telling the story.
当你是对的时候，我认为你应该站出来讲述这个故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: I remember at the end of your WordCamp talk, you were like, "Any questions?" after this big controversial talk, and I'm curious how it felt.
Lenny Rachitsky：我记得在你的 WordCamp 演讲结束时，你说，“有什么问题吗？”在这场有争议的大演讲之后，我很好奇那是什么感觉。
All the questions initially were nothing to do with this.
所有的问题最初都与此无关。
It's what it felt like.
这就是感觉。
You're just like, oh, they already had these questions.
你就像，哦，他们已经有这些问题了。
They didn't even know what you said maybe, and I bet you're just like, wait, did anyone hear what I just said?
他们甚至可能不知道你说了什么，我打赌你会想，等等，有人听到我刚才说的话吗？
Did it feel like that?
有这样的感觉吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Well, also, that's really like a WordPress community event, so it's a lot of the core developers and things, so they have WordPress questions, so that is something.
Matt Mullenweg：嗯，这也很像 WordPress 社区活动，所以有很多核心开发人员和其他人，所以他们有 WordPress 问题，所以这就是问题。
Matt Mullenweg: I've now done hundreds and hundreds of these town halls and QAs, and I really enjoy it because you never know what's going to come up.
Matt Mullenweg：我现在已经完成了数百个这样的市政厅和质量保证，我真的很喜欢它，因为你永远不知道会发生什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，好的。
I want to talk about all the companies that you bought and will buy in the future.
我想谈谈你买过的和将来会买的所有公司。
It's kind of like you're building a little Berkshire Hathaway.
这有点像你正在建造一家小型伯克希尔哈撒韦公司。
I think you've described it that way.
我想你已经这样描述了。
It's kind of what it's feeling like.
有点像那种感觉。
And Tumblr is really interesting.
Tumblr 真的很有趣。
Until I started prepping for this, I didn't even know you guys own Tumblr.
在我开始为此做准备之前，我什至不知道你们拥有 Tumblr。
I haven't heard this story.
我没听过这个故事。
Why did you guys buy Tumblr?
你们为什么买 Tumblr？
What is going on with Tumblr?
Tumblr 到底怎么了？
It was like a big deal back in the day.
这在当时就像是一件大事。
What is the current state of Tumblr?
Tumblr 目前的状况如何？
What is the story there?
那里有什么故事呢？
Matt Mullenweg: Oh, Tumblr is so interesting.
Matt Mullenweg：哦，Tumblr 太有趣了。
At the time, I think it was one of our best competitors.
当时，我认为它是我们最好的竞争对手之一。
They created this really amazing sort of hybrid of blogging and social networking.
他们创造了这种真正令人惊奇的博客和社交网络的混合体。
And if you kind of zoom back, a lot of things that are now standard on other social networks, even the ability to embed an image with a post, again, it was not supported originally on Twitter and other things.
如果你放大一下，很多东西现在在其他社交网络上都是标准的，甚至在帖子中嵌入图像的能力，同样，它最初在 Twitter 和其他东西上不受支持。
Remember they used to have, what was it, like tweet image, or you have to linked out to other things to post an image to Twitter.
记住他们曾经有，那是什么，比如推文图像，或者你必须链接到其他东西才能将图像发布到推特。
It wasn't native functionality, and Tumblr had these multiple post types.
这不是原生功能，而且 Tumblr 有多种帖子类型。
You could post a chat, an image.
您可以发布聊天记录、图片。
They were, I think, one of the first to support video, so they did a lot of, I think, product innovation under the leadership of David Karp, who's a really amazing entrepreneur and product leader.
我认为他们是最早支持视频的公司之一，所以我认为他们在大卫·卡普（David Karp）的领导下做了很多产品创新，大卫·卡普是一位非常了不起的企业家和产品领导者。
Matt Mullenweg: Funny story, both David and I were at CNET at the same time.
Matt Mullenweg：有趣的故事，大卫和我同时在 CNET。
They had hired both of us.
他们雇用了我们俩。
Matt Mullenweg: They could have kept both of us probably.
Matt Mullenweg：他们可能可以留住我们两个。
But anyway, the Tumblr, I forget the year, but they sold, I think the same time that Instagram did, for a similar amount, $1.1 billion.
但无论如何，Tumblr，我忘记了具体年份，但我想他们和 Instagram 是在同一时间出售的，价格相似，为 11 亿美元。
Matt Mullenweg: Instagram bought by Facebook, obviously.
Matt Mullenweg：Instagram 显然被 Facebook 收购了。
Matt Mullenweg: Who was at the time, again, Yahoo, we don't think about it now, but I feel a little old.
马特·穆伦韦格（Matt Mullenweg）：当时是谁，再说一次，雅虎，我们现在不考虑这个问题，但我感觉有点老了。
But at the time, Yahoo was one of the internet giants and had recently Marissa Mayer, who was one of the big early people at Google, I think part of creating the API program and everything like that, was the CEO of Yahoo.
但当时，雅虎是互联网巨头之一，最近任命了玛丽莎·梅耶尔 (Marissa Mayer)，她是谷歌早期的重要人物之一，我认为创建 API 程序以及类似的事情的一部分就是雅虎的首席执行官。
This was, I think, one of her first big acquisitions.
我认为这是她的第一批大型收购之一。
Matt Mullenweg: Now subsequently, obviously ,we know how Instagram went.
Matt Mullenweg：现在，显然，我们知道 Instagram 是如何发展的。
I think people were like, "I can't believe you bought this for a billion dollars." And obviously now it's worth hundreds of billions.
我想人们会说，“我不敢相信你花了十亿美元买了这个。”显然现在它的价值已经达到了数千亿。
So that's had a really good trajectory.
所以这有一个非常好的轨迹。
At Yahoo, I think things became more challenged.
在雅虎，我认为事情变得更具挑战性。
So again, this is a little bit of history, but Yahoo then had this thing where they owned part of Alibaba, which then became more valuable than the rest of the company.
再说一次，这只是一段历史，但雅虎后来拥有了阿里巴巴的一部分，然后阿里巴巴变得比公司的其他部分更有价值。
They had activist investors.
他们有积极的投资者。
I think they had some CEO switches.
我认为他们更换了一些首席执行官。
I think Marissa Mayer leaves or gets fired at some point.
我认为玛丽莎·梅耶尔在某个时候离开或被解雇。
There's all this turnover, and I think Tumblr really languished under their ownership.
如此频繁的人员流动，我认为 Tumblr 在他们的掌控下确实陷入了困境。
And from what I can understand, the team was actually held back a lot from things they wanted to launch or ways they wanted to iterate.
据我所知，团队实际上在他们想要推出的东西或他们想要迭代的方式上受到了很大的阻碍。
Then Yahoo merges with AOL, which is another kind of early internet thing.
然后雅虎与美国在线合并，这是另一种早期的互联网事物。
That goes for a little while.
这会持续一段时间。
So again, then Tumblr's just kind of stuck underneath this stuff.
再说一次，Tumblr 就被困在了这些东西下面。
Matt Mullenweg: Tumbling along.
Matt Mullenweg：翻滚着。
And then that gets bought by Verizon.
然后被 Verizon 收购。
So fast-forward to 2019.
快进到 2019 年。
Verizon wants to get rid of Tumblr.
Verizon 希望摆脱 Tumblr。
And so they're kind of putting it up for sale and had a number of bidders.
所以他们打算将其出售，并有很多竞标者。
Automattic ended up buying it for a de minimis amount.
Automattic 最终以微薄的价格购买了它。
I think it's been reported we bought it for $3 million.
我记得有报道说我们花了 300 万美元买下了它。
Matt Mullenweg: But obviously, that represented a lot of value destruction over the years.
Matt Mullenweg：但显然，多年来这代表了很多价值破坏。
Tumblr had had some tough times.
Tumblr 曾经历过一些艰难时期。
They actually were banned from the App Store at one point for not moderating things well enough and having maybe a little too much porn.
事实上，他们曾一度被 App Store 禁止，因为他们没有足够好地调节事情，而且色情内容可能有点太多。
Obviously, Twitter porn.
显然，推特上的色情内容。
They maybe were a little too out there with it, and we're doing a good job filtering it and keeping away from App Store reviewers or whatever.
他们可能有点太过分了，我们在过滤方面做得很好，并远离了 App Store 评论者或其他人。
And so Verizon, to their credit though, there were people bidding more.
因此，值得赞扬的是，Verizon 也有人出价更高。
Actually I think a porn company was bidding on Tumblr that would've paid a lot more money.
事实上，我认为一家色情公司正在竞购 Tumblr，他们会支付更多的钱。
They really were looking for an acquirer that they felt like would be a good steward.
他们确实在寻找一个他们认为能够成为好管家的收购方。
From my point of view, I had such incredible respect for Tumblr as a product.
从我的角度来看，我对 Tumblr 这个产品怀有无比的敬意。
And the community, still, despite all of this sort of stuff that had happened, I think at that point still was like, I forget the exact number, but call it 15, 20 million monthly active users.
尽管发生了所有这些事情，但社区仍然是这样的，我忘记了确切的数字，但称之为 15、2000 万每月活跃用户。
Matt Mullenweg: So really, sort of active core.
Matt Mullenweg：确实，有点活跃的核心。
And one of the things that's so fascinating is over half of that user base was under the age of 25.
令人着迷的事情之一是超过一半的用户群年龄在 25 岁以下。
And actually had a huge, I think, it was like 25 or 30% LGBT+.
我想，实际上有一个巨大的群体，大概是 25% 或 30% LGBT+。
I think a very unique place on the internet, where people could have a social network where they could be anonymous, they could put on different identities, they could be someplace their parents weren't, like Facebook or Instagram, really still could take a special spot.
我认为互联网上一个非常独特的地方，人们可以拥有一个社交网络，在那里他们可以匿名，他们可以使用不同的身份，他们可以在他们的父母不存在的地方，比如 Facebook 或 Instagram，真的仍然可以占据一个特殊的位置。
So we ended up buying it.
所以我们最终还是买了它。
Now, people are like, "Oh, you bought it for $3 million." But we bought it sort of taking on all liabilities, including, I think they were under investigation by the FTC, there were lawsuits.
现在，人们会说，“哦，你花了 300 万美元买了它。”但我们买下它有点承担了所有责任，包括，我认为他们正在接受联邦贸易委员会的调查，有诉讼。
There was all this sort of stuff.
有各种各样的东西。
So it was free like a puppy, not free like-
所以它像小狗一样自由，而不是像-
Matt Mullenweg: Had a pretty big team, I think 185 people.
Matt Mullenweg：有一个相当大的团队，我想有 185 人。
We were taking a lot of burners, burning a ton of cash, and that was 2019.
我们花了很多钱，烧掉了大量现金，那是 2019 年。
And so, it's been, I think, a humbling experience running a social network.
因此，我认为，运营社交网络是一次令人羞愧的经历。
It was very, very different from all the other products that we've done.
它与我们做过的所有其他产品非常非常不同。
And I think there's some incredible things about Tumblr and that I'm still very excited about.
我认为 Tumblr 有一些令人难以置信的事情，我仍然对此感到非常兴奋。
So where WordPress has primarily a desktop and web user base, Tumblr is obviously like 85% app-based, has a younger demographic.
因此，WordPress 主要拥有桌面和 Web 用户群，而 Tumblr 显然 85% 是基于应用程序的，并且拥有更年轻的用户群。
And so part of the vision that now we're executing on is actually we wanted to create a path for people using Tumblr to actually it being powered by WordPress on the back end.
因此，我们现在正在执行的部分愿景实际上是，我们希望为使用 Tumblr 的人们创建一条路径，让其后端实际上由 WordPress 提供支持。
So Tumblr users could unlock themes, customization, plugins, et cetera.
因此，Tumblr 用户可以解锁主题、自定义、插件等。
Actually, we're in the process right now of migrating the half a billion Tumblr sites to WordPress, probably one of the largest data migrations-
事实上，我们现在正在将 5 亿个 Tumblr 网站迁移到 WordPress，这可能是最大的数据迁移之一 -
Matt Mullenweg: ...
马特·马伦韦格：...
that's happened in a while.
那已经发生了一段时间了。
So we're kind of trying to do this in a way that's invisible to users on the front end, so changing at the back end while maintaining the APIs and the interface and everything.
因此，我们尝试以一种对前端用户不可见的方式来做到这一点，因此在后端进行更改，同时维护 API、界面和所有内容。
So it's a fun engineering project.
所以这是一个有趣的工程项目。
I kind of posted this kind of call to arms, got a lot of fun people applying for Automattic, and we hired a lot of great folks around this sort of audacious project, this big hairy audacious goal.
我发布了类似的战斗号召，吸引了很多有趣的人申请 Automattic，并且我们围绕这种大胆的项目、这个大胆的目标聘请了很多优秀的人才。
And so that's where it's at now.
这就是现在的情况。
I've sort of ran it personally for a few years while we're doing turnarounds, but there's a great team there, but still challenged, still not profitable, so we're still subsidizing it from the rest of Automattic's businesses.
在我们进行扭亏为盈的过程中，我已经亲自运营了几年，但那里有一个很棒的团队，但仍然面临挑战，仍然没有盈利，所以我们仍然从 Automattic 的其他业务中对其进行补贴。
Fortunately, the rest of our business have done really well, so we were able to do that, but I definitely want to get to a place where it's sustainable.
幸运的是，我们的其他业务做得非常好，所以我们能够做到这一点，但我绝对希望达到一个可持续的地方。
Matt Mullenweg: And one of the things we're also experimenting with is can Tumblr have not just an advertising-driven model?
Matt Mullenweg：我们也在尝试的事情之一是，Tumblr 是否可以不仅仅是一个广告驱动的模式？
I think ultimately the incentives of advertising social networks can lead to the kind of dynamics that you see on the more negative side of Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, et cetera.
我认为，社交网络广告的激励最终会导致你在 Twitter、Instagram、Facebook 等网站上看到的那种更消极的一面。
And so really trying to create a subscription model or a sort of first-party user-driven advertising, where you promote your blog posts or something like that, or you promote a WooCommerce product or something, where it's not a third-party ad ecosystem, which I think has a lot of weird code and malware and lots of stuff I don't love.
因此，我真的在尝试创建一个订阅模型或一种第一方用户驱动的广告，在其中推广您的博客文章或类似的东西，或者推广 WooCommerce 产品或其他东西，它不是第三方广告生态系统，我认为第三方广告生态系统有很多奇怪的代码和恶意软件以及很多我不喜欢的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, sounds like a lot you took on with this acquisition, and I love that you said you ran it initially.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，听起来你在这次收购中承担了很多责任，我很高兴你说你最初负责管理它。
So this is a good segue to maybe my last question.
所以这可能是我最后一个问题的一个很好的延续。
I'm curious where this goes.
我很好奇这会去哪里。
Just how do you...
只是你怎么...
Well, let me zoom out.
好吧，让我缩小一下。
There's a lot of people these days that are excited about roll of businesses.
现在有很多人对业务的发展感到兴奋。
I'm going to buy a bunch of companies, make them better, make them awesome, save money, and then just keep building this holding company sort of thing.
我要收购很多公司，让它们变得更好，让它们变得更棒，省钱，然后继续建立这家控股公司之类的东西。
You guys are doing that, and it's working well.
你们正在这样做，而且效果很好。
What do you look for?
你在寻找什么？
How do you decide a company's right for Automattic?
您如何决定一家公司是否适合使用 Automattic？
What are the factors that are like, we should buy this, we can turn this around and turn it into a big success?
是什么样的因素，我们应该购买这个，我们可以扭转这个局面并使其取得巨大成功？
Matt Mullenweg: I don't know if I would do another turnaround like Tumblr again, or at least not for many, many years.
Matt Mullenweg：我不知道我是否会再次像 Tumblr 那样扭转局面，或者至少在很多很多年里不会。
It's definitely a different thing.
这绝对是另一回事。
The vast majority of things we acquire, it's simply something that's done well, and we want to accelerate it, or sometimes acqui-hires, where we're plugging it into one of our existing projects, or we're taking the team and putting them on something we're already doing.
我们收购的绝大多数东西，只是一些做得好的东西，我们希望加速它，或者有时是收购雇用，我们将其插入我们现有的项目之一，或者我们正在带领团队并让他们从事我们已经在做的事情。
So it's a really talented team.
所以这是一支非常有才华的团队。
Tumblr, I think we ended up ultimately replacing 85, 90% of the team as well.
Tumblr，我认为我们最终也更换了 85%、90% 的团队成员。
So that's just very different.
所以这非常不同。
So I do think there are different ways of doing it, but if you look at our other acquisitions like Day One, et cetera, founder's still here, many years later, we're accelerating stuff like that.
所以我确实认为有不同的方法可以做到这一点，但如果你看看我们的其他收购，比如第一天等，创始人仍然在这里，很多年后，我们正在加速类似的事情。
We brought it to Android, we're bringing it to it to web.
我们将其引入 Android，并将其引入网络。
It's more of taking something good and making it better.
更多的是采取一些好的东西并使其变得更好。
And probably our best example there is WooCommerce, which was a small company, I think 35, 40 people, based out of South Africa, and has obviously grown to...
也许我们最好的例子是 WooCommerce，它是一家小公司，我认为有 35 到 40 名员工，总部位于南非，但显然已经成长为……
Again, I said Automattic makes about half a billion dollars a year now, and WooCommerce is a majority of that.
我再说一遍，Automattic 现在每年大约赚 5 亿美元，而 WooCommerce 占其中的大部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of that, actually, you haven't shared the revenue number.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到这一点，实际上，您还没有分享收入数字。
I know it's public.
我知道这是公开的。
Just give people a sense of Automattic's revenue.
只是让人们了解 Automattic 的收入。
Can you just share those numbers?
你能分享一下这些数字吗？
Because I think it might blow people's minds.
因为我认为这可能会让人们大吃一惊。
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, I think we say publicly it's about a half a billion dollars in sort of ARR revenue right now.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，我想我们公开表示，目前的 ARR 收入约为 5 亿美元。
Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。
Okay.
好的。
I have a question for you.
我有一个问题要问你。
It's kind of a hot seat question.
这是一个热门问题。
As you talked, I wonder, I feel like people are thinking of this.
当你说话时，我想知道，我觉得人们正在考虑这个问题。
So you've been talking about PE companies being often bad.
所以你一直在谈论私募股权公司经常表现不佳。
You're buying Tumblr.
你正在购买 Tumblr。
You've talked about laying off a bunch of people, turning it all around.
你谈到了解雇一批人，扭转局面。
How's that different from a PE company, Matt?
马特，这与私募股权公司有什么不同？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, and I agree with you that just because it's private equity doesn't mean it's bad.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，我同意你的观点，仅仅因为它是私募股权并不意味着它很糟糕。
And also, something people say is like, "Hey, wait, don't you have private equity investors as well at Automattic?" And we do.
而且，人们会说，“嘿，等等，Automattic 不是也有私募股权投资者吗？”我们确实这么做了。
Now, they own usually a small percentage, sometimes under 1%, and they don't have control of the company.
现在，他们通常拥有一小部分股份，有时低于 1%，而且他们无法控制公司。
So I think there's a distinguish.
所以我认为这是有区别的。
Is it a minority investment or a control investment?
是少数股权投资还是控股投资？
And with WP Engine, Silver Lake controls the company.
通过 WP Engine，Silver Lake 控制了该公司。
And when they control the company, I think there's a spectrum of actions.
当他们控制公司时，我认为会采取一系列行动。
Obviously, being more efficient is great, and we should all strive for that.
显然，提高效率是件好事，我们都应该为此而努力。
And I think every business does, whether it's private equity or our business or things that are founder controlled.
我认为每个企业都是如此，无论是私募股权、我们的企业还是创始人控制的企业。
You always want to be more efficient.
您总是希望变得更有效率。
Now, there's some spectrum there where you over-optimize, or you could have dark patterns.
现在，有一些频谱是您过度优化的，或者您可能会出现深色图案。
Right now on WP Engine, it's very difficult to cancel your accounts.
目前在 WP Engine 上，取消帐户非常困难。
Actually, I think as of today, 45,000 sites have left, so they're, I think, down to 600.
事实上，我认为截至今天，已经有 45,000 个网站消失，所以我认为数量已减少至 600 个。
Yeah, well, because their customers have realized like, "Hey, this isn't WordPress, this isn't..." or, "They're suing the guy who started WordPress, so maybe we should not support this commercially." So we have the site wordpressenginetracker.com that sort of shows in real time the sites that are leaving.
是的，好吧，因为他们的客户已经意识到，“嘿，这不是 WordPress，这不是……”或者“他们正在起诉创建 WordPress 的人，所以也许我们不应该在商业上支持它。”因此，我们有一个网站 wordpressenginetracker.com，可以实时显示正在离开的网站。
It's kind of an exciting thing to see that number tick up.
看到这个数字不断上升是一件令人兴奋的事情。
Actually, maybe a good example as well, even though there's a lot of negativity, you actually look at how people are voting with their wallets.
实际上，也许也是一个很好的例子，尽管存在很多负面情绪，但你实际上会看到人们如何用钱包投票。
They're leaving.
他们要走了。
Matt Mullenweg: So I think you have to judge as well, just look at the track record.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我认为你也必须做出判断，只要看看往绩记录即可。
So one of the things I'm very proud of with Automattic is we are an acquirer of first resort, and we have founders that have sold to us.
因此，我对 Automattic 感到非常自豪的一件事是，我们是首选收购者，而且我们的创始人也将其出售给了我们。
Paul Mayne at Day One is a great example that didn't need to sell.
第一天的保罗·梅恩（Paul Mayne）就是一个不需要出售的很好的例子。
They're wildly profitable, could have run it himself for a long, long time, but people choose to join because they feel like we'll be good stewards of it in the future, and ultimately just have to look at the track record.
他们利润丰厚，本来可以自己经营很长一段时间，但人们选择加入是因为他们觉得我们将来会成为它的好管家，最终只需要看看业绩记录。
Matt Mullenweg: So I think don't judge it by what it's called, judge it by the actions over time.
Matt Mullenweg：所以我认为不要根据它的名称来判断它，而是根据随着时间的推移所采取的行动来判断它。
And I hope to continue building that reputation for a place that's a good steward of communities and software and everything else for many years to come.
我希望在未来的许多年里继续建立一个社区、软件和其他一切的良好管理者的声誉。
Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, we covered so much.
Lenny Rachitsky：马特，我们讨论了很多。
I asked you all the hard questions and more.
我问了你所有的难题以及更多。
Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you want to leave listeners with?
在我们结束之前，您还有什么想留给听众的吗？
Any last thoughts, comments, insights, stories?
最后还有什么想法、评论、见解、故事吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, follow me.
马特·穆伦韦格：是的，跟我来。
I'm at photomatt, P-H-O-T-O-M-A-T-T, on Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram, everything like that.
我在 photomatt、P-H-O-T-O-M-A-T-T、Tumblr、Twitter、Instagram 等类似网站上。
I post a lot about other stuff.
我发布了很多其他内容。
I post a lot about AI and open source and other things.
我发布了很多关于人工智能和开源以及其他事情的文章。
Some WordPress things in there as well.
里面还有一些 WordPress 的东西。
I have these life missions to democratize publishing and commerce.
我的人生使命是使出版和商业民主化。
We added a new one last year, which is messaging, so it's in beta mode right now, but relaunching in a few months as a product called Beeper, which takes all your Telegram, Instagram DMs, Signal, everything, brings it all into one app.
我们去年添加了一个新功能，即消息传递，所以它现在处于测试模式，但几个月后重新推出了一款名为 Beeper 的产品，它可以将您所有的 Telegram、Instagram DM、Signal 等所有内容整合到一个应用程序中。
And you can do some really cool stuff like that, and especially when you start to imagine search or AI, local AI around that.
你可以做一些非常酷的事情，尤其是当你开始想象搜索或人工智能、本地人工智能时。
So very, very excited about that relaunch.
对于这次重新启动非常非常兴奋。
So I encourage people to, you check out the beta now, go to beeper.com/beta to get the new version, and we're going to relaunch that later in the year.
因此，我鼓励人们现在就查看测试版，访问 beeper.com/beta 获取新版本，我们将在今年晚些时候重新推出该版本。
Matt Mullenweg: So yeah, I'm very excited about that.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，我对此感到非常兴奋。
It's kind of fun to be working on something that's at the stage where WordPress was in 2003, 2004.
从事 WordPress 2003、2004 年阶段的工作是很有趣的。
So WordPress is quite mature at this point.
所以WordPress在这一点上已经相当成熟了。
WooCommerce is kind of where WordPress was in 2010.
WooCommerce 有点像 2010 年的 WordPress。
And then the Beeper stuff, the messaging stuff is where we were in 2003.
然后是 Beeper 的东西，消息传递的东西就是我们 2003 年的情况。
So one thing that keeps me excited is working at different stages of this.
所以让我兴奋的一件事是在不同阶段进行工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: This feels like a reason to be doing your approach to Berkshire Hathaway is just stay active in early stage stuff and not just optimize established things.
Lenny Rachitsky：这感觉像是对伯克希尔哈撒韦采取的方法的一个原因是在早期阶段保持活跃，而不仅仅是优化已建立的事物。
So it's beeper.com, by the way, awesome domain name.
顺便说一句，这是 beeper.com，很棒的域名。
Photomatt, what's the story of photomatt?
Photomatt，photomatt 的故事是什么？
You're into photography, I imagine, is the story?
我想你很喜欢摄影，这是故事吗？
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, it's a little bit of a pun.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，这是一个双关语。
So a fotomatt is also, F-O-T-O-M-A-T-T, is a place that you would go to develop your photos back when you would have film and develop things.
因此，fotomatt 也是 F-O-T-O-M-A-T-T，是当您拍摄胶片和冲洗东西时您会去冲洗照片的地方。
So originally my username was Saxmatt because I played the saxophone.
所以最初我的用户名是 Saxmatt，因为我吹萨克斯管。
Sometimes people mishear that.
有时人们会误解这一点。
And also, I started traveling so much.
而且，我开始经常旅行。
There's been years I do like 400,000 miles of air travel, because I go around the world to go to WordPress events and meet the community.
多年来，我确实喜欢 400,000 英里的航空旅行，因为我去世界各地参加 WordPress 活动并与社区见面。
And as a distributed company, we do lots of meetups.
作为一家分布式公司，我们举办了很多聚会。
And so, it became hard to carry my saxophone around.
因此，随身携带我的萨克斯管变得很困难。
So my method of artistic expression became photography, and that's actually kind of how WordPress started, was actually originally a site where I could share my photos before Flickr, before Facebook and everything like that, sort of use this gallery software, actually open source gallery software, PHP software, to sort of share all the photos I was taking.
所以我的艺术表达方法变成了摄影，这实际上就是 WordPress 的开始方式，实际上最初是一个在 Flickr、Facebook 和类似的东西之前我可以分享我的照片的网站，有点使用这个画廊软件，实际上是开源画廊软件，PHP 软件，来分享我正在拍摄的所有照片。
Matt Mullenweg: And actually now on my website, I think I have over 38,000 photos I posted.
Matt Mullenweg：实际上现在在我的网站上，我想我发布了超过 38,000 张照片。
And yeah, it's still one of the things I really love.
是的，这仍然是我真正喜欢的事情之一。
So it's also a username that was available everywhere, and I still do it.
所以它也是一个随处可用的用户名，我仍然这样做。
So I'm actually going to the Maha Kumbh Mela, the big 300-million-person gathering at the Ganges River in a few weeks.
所以我实际上要去参加大壶节（Maha Kumbh Mela），这是几周后在恒河举行的 3 亿人的大型聚会。
And one, I'm just excited to experience that, it happens every 12 years, but two, I'm just really excited to take some time to do photography.
第一，我很高兴能够体验到这一点，这种情况每 12 年就会发生一次，但第二，我很高兴能花一些时间进行摄影。
And yeah, I really enjoy it.
是的，我真的很喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: You forgot to mention your website and your blog, your WordPress site itself, where you blog.
Lenny Rachitsky：你忘了提及你的网站和博客、你的 WordPress 网站本身以及你写博客的地方。
Ma.tt, is the domain, which is amazing.
Ma.tt，是域名，这很神奇。
I will point people to one of my favorite ritual you have on your blog, which is you share what's in your bag, you talk about how you travel all this, and I think every year you're like, here's the gadgets I use most and bring with me everywhere.
我会向人们指出你在博客上最喜欢的仪式之一，那就是你分享你包里的东西，你谈论你如何旅行这一切，我想每年你都会喜欢，这是我最常使用并随身携带的小工具。
Matt Mullenweg: It's my most popular post of the year by far.
Matt Mullenweg：这是迄今为止我今年最受欢迎的帖子。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not surprised.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我并不感到惊讶。
You need an Amazon, just buy everything button.
你需要一个亚马逊，只需购买所有东西按钮即可。
Yeah, because basically you're just trying to optimize for the least weight and most utility, right, out of all these gadgets that you're bringing with the on trips.
是的，因为基本上你只是想优化你旅行时携带的所有这些小工具，以实现最轻的重量和最实用的功能，对吧。
Matt Mullenweg: Yeah, actually weighing it is something I just started doing this year because my bag actually got really heavy, got like 35 pounds or something.
Matt Mullenweg：是的，实际上称重是我今年才开始做的事情，因为我的包实际上变得非常重，大约有 35 磅之类的。
And so, some friends were like, "Hey, why don't we weigh everything and just go through." So now I'm posting the weights.
所以，一些朋友说，“嘿，我们为什么不权衡一切然后就过去呢。”所以现在我发布权重。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my god.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪。
Okay.
好的。
Anyway, we'll point people to that.
不管怎样，我们会向人们指出这一点。
Matt, thank you so much for doing this.
马特，非常感谢你这么做。
This was awesome,
这太棒了，
Matt Mullenweg: Lenny, thank you so much.
马特·穆伦韦格：莱尼，非常感谢你。
And I really appreciate the ability to discuss these things in a longer form.
我真的很感激能够以更长的形式讨论这些事情。
And also just your audience.
也只是你的观众。
Oh, I guess final thing I'll say is we're hiring a ton.
哦，我想我要说的最后一件事是我们正在招聘大量人员。
So you have one of the most incredible audiences in the world.
所以你拥有世界上最令人难以置信的观众之一。
I recommend your podcast and newsletter to a lot of my colleagues.
我向我的很多同事推荐您的播客和时事通讯。
And so, if you're someone who loves this kind of stuff, I think there's a big opportunity at Automattic to have an impact on these things.
因此，如果你喜欢这类东西，我认为 Automattic 有很大的机会对这些东西产生影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: What roles are you hiring for most and where do people find these roles?
Lenny Rachitsky：你们最常招聘哪些职位？人们在哪里找到这些职位？
Matt Mullenweg: Automattic.com, A-U-T-O-M-A-T-T-I-C.
Matt Mullenweg：Automattic.com，A-U-T-O-M-A-T-T-I-C。
There's a Work with Us page.
有一个“与我们合作”页面。
You can kind of see how we work.
你可以看看我们是如何工作的。
We're fully distributed and can manage that forever.
我们是完全分布式的，并且可以永远管理它。
We sort of started that.
我们就是这样开始的。
Another interesting thing is we actually pay the same salaries globally.
另一件有趣的事情是，我们实际上在全球范围内支付相同的工资。
So whether you're in California or Italy or Nigeria or wherever, we pay global salaries.
因此，无论您在加利福尼亚州、意大利、尼日利亚还是其他任何地方，我们都支付全球薪资。
So yeah, a lot of opportunities, and we're hiring for kind of everything, I would say, but particularly people with great design or product skills is probably one of the areas that you can have the biggest impact at Automattic right now.
所以，是的，有很多机会，我想说，我们正在招聘各种各样的人，但特别是具有出色设计或产品技能的人可能是您目前在 Automattic 可以产生最大影响的领域之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: All right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
If you made it this far into the podcast, you should definitely apply.
如果您已经在播客中做到了这一点，那么您绝对应该申请。
Matt, thank you.
马特，谢谢你。
Thank you for being here.
感谢您来到这里。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You could find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。