Are your fears giving you terrible advice? | Matt Mochary

Matt Mochary: The biggest marker that I've seen between a botched layoff and a successful layoff is at the moment someone hears that they no longer have a job, did they hear it from their manager in a one-on-one?

马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）：我在失败的裁员和成功裁员之间看到的最大标志是，当有人听说他们不再有工作时，他们是从他们的经理一对一中听到的吗？

If that's when they heard it, it'll be okay.

如果那时他们听到的话，那就没事了。

But if they heard it in an email, in a group chat, in any kind of thing where they were sitting next to or they're hearing it along with other people, it wasn't personalized, it wasn't one-on-one, that is terrible.

但如果他们在电子邮件中、在群聊中、在任何他们坐在旁边或与其他人一起听到的事情中听到它，那么它就不是个性化的，不是一对一的，那就太糟糕了。

That's when people get really angry and that's when they start going on to Twitter and going to newspapers and et cetera, because it feels dehumanizing.

那是人们真正生气的时候，他们开始上推特、看报纸等等，因为这感觉不人道。

It feels like you didn't give a shit about me.

感觉你根本不关心我。

You don't even have the courtesy to tell me to my face.

你连当面告诉我的礼貌都没有。

And of course, there's no way to allow that person to express their emotions because they're in a group.

当然，没有办法让那个人表达他们的情绪，因为他们在一个群体中。

So, that's the most important thing.

所以，这是最重要的事情。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my aim here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today, my guest is Matt Mochary.

今天，我的嘉宾是马特·莫卡里。

Matt is a full-time executive coach, but not just any coach.

马特是一名全职高管教练，但并非普通教练。

He's worked with folks like Naval, the CEOs of OpenAI, Coinbase, Reddit, Rippling, Fair, Front, Notion, the list goes on.

他曾与 Naval、OpenAI、Coinbase、Reddit、Rippling、Fair、Front、Notion 等公司的首席执行官合作过，这样的例子不胜枚举。

He's also coached partners at VCs like Sequoia, YC, Benchmark, many others.

他还指导过红杉资本、YC、Benchmark 等许多风险投资公司的合作伙伴。

Lenny: We are so fortunate that Matt agreed to join me on this podcast and in our conversation we cover a lot of ground.

莱尼：我们很幸运，马特同意加入我的播客，在我们的谈话中我们涵盖了很多内容。

We talk about why learning to fire people is one of the most important skills as a leader and how to do it well, why anger and fear often point you in the exact opposite direction you should be going, how to innovate within a larger company, how his coaching has evolved over the years, where the most successful founders still struggle, and so much more.

我们讨论为什么学习解雇员工是作为领导者最重要的技能之一，以及如何做好这一点，为什么愤怒和恐惧经常将你引向与你应该走的方向完全相反的方向，如何在大公司内创新，他的教练多年来如何发展，最成功的创始人仍然在哪些方面挣扎，等等。

This may be my new favorite episode and I bet it will be years, too.

这可能是我最喜欢的一集，我打赌这也会持续很多年。

So much real talk with tactics, templates, all kind of goodness.

说了这么多关于战术、模板和各种优点的真实对话。

Enjoy this conversation with Matt Mochary.

享受与马特·莫卡里的这次对话。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：本集由 AssemblyAI 为您带来。

If you're looking to build powerful AI-powered features in your audio or video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI.

如果您希望在音频或视频产品中构建强大的人工智能功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI。

AssemblyAI is the API platform for state-of-the-art AI models the thousands of product-led growth companies like Spotify, Loom and CallRail are using to infuse AI into their products.

AssemblyAI 是最先进的人工智能模型的 API 平台，Spotify、Loom 和 CallRail 等数千家以产品为主导的成长型公司正在使用该平台将人工智能注入到他们的产品中。

With simple APIs, developers and PMs can get access to powerful AI models for transcription, summarization, and dozens of other tasks that are fast, secure, and production ready.

通过简单的 API，开发人员和产品经理可以访问功能强大的 AI 模型，以进行转录、摘要以及其他数十项快速、安全且可用于生产的任务。

All of their models are researched and trained in-house and continuously updated by their team of AI experts, which for a PM make it easy to build and ship new AI-powered features.

他们的所有模型均经过内部研究和训练，并由人工智能专家团队不断更新，这对于产品经理来说可以轻松构建和发布新的人工智能功能。

Product teams with startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics and podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, redact PII from audio videos, and way more.

初创公司和企业的产品团队正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话和虚拟会议、检测主题和播客、查明何时说出敏感内容、从音频视频中编辑 PII 等等。

Visit AssemblyAI.com to try AssemblyAI's API for free and start testing their models in their no-code playground.

访问 AssemblyAI.com 免费试用 AssemblyAI 的 API 并开始在无代码游乐场中测试他们的模型。

That's AssemblyAI.com.

这就是 AssemblyAI.com。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Lemon.io.

Lenny：本集由 Lemon.io 为您带来。

You've achieved product market fit, you're able to activate, engage, and retain your customers, but you don't have the engineers that you need to move as fast as you want to because it's hard to find great engineers quickly, especially if you're trying to protect your burn rate.

您已经实现了产品市场契合，您能够激活、吸引和留住客户，但您没有所需的工程师按照您想要的速度快速行动，因为很难快速找到优秀的工程师，特别是当您试图保护您的烧钱率时。

Meet Lemon.io.

认识 Lemon.io。

Lemon.io will quickly match you with skilled senior developers who are all vetted, results-oriented, and ready to help you grow.

Lemon.io 将快速为您匹配熟练的高级开发人员，他们都经过审查，注重结果，随时准备帮助您成长。

And all that at competitive rates.

所有这一切都以具有竞争力的价格提供。

Startups choose Lemon.io because they offer only handpicked developers with three or more years of experience and strong proven portfolios.

初创公司选择 Lemon.io 是因为他们只提供精心挑选的具有三年或以上经验和经过验证的强大产品组合的开发人员。

Only 1% of candidates who apply get in, so you can be sure that they offer you only high quality talent.

只有 1% 的申请者能够进入，因此您可以确信他们只为您提供高素质的人才。

And if something ever goes wrong, Lemon.io offers you a swift replacement so that you're kind of hiring with a warranty.

如果出现问题，Lemon.io 会为您提供快速更换，这样您就可以在有保修的情况下雇用。

Lenny: To learn more, just go to lemon.io/lenny and find your perfect developer or tech team in 48 hours or less.

Lenny：要了解更多信息，只需访问柠檬.io/lenny，即可在 48 小时或更短的时间内找到您完美的开发人员或技术团队。

And if you start the process now, you can claim a special discount exclusively for Lenny's Podcast listeners, 15% off your first four weeks of working with your new software developer.

如果您现在开始该流程，您可以享受专为 Lenny's Podcast 听众提供的特别折扣，即与新软件开发人员合作的前四个星期可享受 15% 的折扣。

Grow faster with an extra pair of hands, visit lemon.io/lenny.

借助额外的双手，更快地成长，请访问柠檬.io/lenny。

Lenny: Matt, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：马特，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Matt Mochary: Thanks for having me.

马特·莫卡里：谢谢你邀请我。

I'm looking forward to it.

我很期待。

Lenny: I am looking forward to it even more.

莱尼：我更加期待了。

The way I learned about you is back in the day I read this book called The Great CEO Within, which I have right here, and I was like, holy moly, this is the most tactical, practical, useful book I've seen for leaders.

我对你的了解是在我读到这本书《内在的伟大首席执行官》的那天，我就在这儿，当时我就想，天哪，这是我见过的关于领导者的最具战术性、实用性、有用性的书。

I need to tell everyone about it, and I did.

我需要告诉所有人这件事，我做到了。

Then a few weeks ago, someone shared a link in my newsletter Slack community to this document that is called the Mochary Method Curriculum Document.

几周前，有人在我的时事通讯 Slack 社区中分享了该文档的链接，该文档称为 Mochary 方法课程文档。

I was like, oh my god, this is the most practical, tactical, useful document I've seen in a long time.

我当时想，天哪，这是我很长一段时间以来见过的最实用、最有策略、最有用的文档。

I got to share this with everyone, and I did.

我必须与大家分享这一点，我做到了。

Then I realized it's the same person that wrote these two things, and so I reached out to you and you kindly agreed to join me on this podcast.

然后我意识到这两件事是同一个人写的，所以我联系了你，你同意加入我这个播客。

And so again, really appreciate you being here.

再次感谢您来到这里。

Lenny: Give folks a little bit of background on you who aren't so familiar with you, and just to help understand a little bit of a how you got so wise.

莱尼：向那些不太熟悉你的人介绍一下你的背景，只是为了帮助他们理解你是如何变得如此聪明的。

Can you give folks just kind of a brief overview of some of the wonderful things you've done in your career, maybe some of the folks you've worked with and how you got to what you do now?

您能否向人们简要概述一下您在职业生涯中所做的一些精彩的事情，也许是与您共事过的一些人，以及您是如何做到现在的事情的？

Matt Mochary: Right on.

马特·莫卡里：好的。

I've had a very varied career.

我的职业生涯非常丰富多彩。

I started a company back in internet 1.0 called Totality, which was a good financial outcome.

早在互联网 1.0 时代，我就创办了一家名为 Totality 的公司，取得了不错的财务成果。

Then I went and just had fun for a long time and then I went and did social good and helped ex-convicts get and keep a job by becoming truck drivers.

然后我去玩了很长一段时间，然后我去做社会公益，通过成为卡车司机来帮助刑满释放人员找到并保住工作。

All that was super fun, but I realized I missed my peers and I wanted to get back into the tech world, but I didn't want to start a company because a company is a lot of work and the end result is you make a lot of money, but I didn't need money.

所有这些都非常有趣，但我意识到我想念我的同龄人，我想回到科技世界，但我不想创办一家公司，因为公司需要大量工作，最终结果是你赚很多钱，但我不需要钱。

Matt Mochary: And so I thought, how could I get in the tech world and not actually have to do the hard work?

马特·莫卡里：所以我想，我怎样才能进入科技世界而不需要做艰苦的工作呢？

Oh, I could be a coach.

哦，我可以当教练。

I could coach people and then I just get to do the fun stuff and advise them and then they have to do the hard work.

我可以指导人们，然后我就可以做有趣的事情并为他们提供建议，然后他们就必须做艰苦的工作。

And so I looked around and thought, well how could I do that because I'm not a coach and so why would anyone listen to me?

所以我环顾四周，想，我怎么能这么做，因为我不是教练，为什么有人会听我的呢？

Then someone told me that there were students at Stanford that had started companies but no one would coach them.

然后有人告诉我，斯坦福大学有一些学生创办了公司，但没有人指导他们。

They couldn't get into YC because YC doesn't accept students.

他们无法进入 YC，因为 YC 不接受学生。

So, I went and started coaching them and it was super fun and very successful and then they started recommending me up the food chain and eventually, I met folks like Naval Ravikant and Sam Altman and Brian Armstrong and they recommended me around to the rest of the tech community, and ended up coaching some of the CEOs and the leaders of the biggest tech companies and biggest tech investment firms.

所以，我开始指导他们，这非常有趣，非常成功，然后他们开始向食物链推荐我，最终，我遇到了像 Naval Ravikant、Sam Altman 和 Brian Armstrong 这样的人，他们向科技社区的其他成员推荐了我，最后指导了一些最大的科技公司和最大的科技投资公司的首席执行官和领导人。

Matt Mochary: It's been a ton of fun and for me, I do things for joy and each and every one of these interactions has been massively joyful for me and the people I coach become my really close friends, so it's all very selfish on my part.

马特·莫卡里：这对我来说很有趣，我做事都是为了快乐，每一次互动都让我非常快乐，我指导的人成为我真正亲密的朋友，所以对我来说这一切都非常自私。

Lenny: I feel you on a lot of that.

莱尼：我对你的感受很多。

I also tried to explore starting a company again and similarly decided this is way too much stress and work, what else can I do instead?

我也尝试过重新创办一家公司，同样觉得这压力太大、工作太多，我还能做什么呢？

And that's what led to the work I do now, which I love.

这就是我现在所做的工作的原因，我热爱这份工作。

Lenny: How long have you been doing this coaching?

莱尼：你从事这项教练工作多久了？

Matt Mochary: That whole process started about 10 years ago, so about 10 years.

Matt Mochary：整个过程大约开始于 10 年前，所以大约 10 年了。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

You have a lot of fans on Twitter and the internet and ahead of this chat I polled folks on Twitter and asked them what they would ask you if they were chatting with you, so I thought I'd start off with asking you a few those questions and then we'll dig into a few very specific topics that I'm excited to talk about.

你在 Twitter 和互联网上有很多粉丝，在这次聊天之前，我在 Twitter 上对人们进行了民意调查，并询问他们如果与你聊天，他们会问你什么，所以我想我应该首先问你一些这样的问题，然后我们将深入探讨一些我很高兴谈论的非常具体的主题。

The first question comes from Leo Polovets who's a GP at Susa Ventures, and he asked, "Matt has coached some incredible founders, what are some of the most common areas where even the most successful founders still struggle?"

第一个问题来自 Susa Ventures 的普通合伙人 Leo Polovets，他问道：“Matt 指导过一些令人难以置信的创始人，即使是最成功的创始人仍然在哪些最常见的领域陷入困境？”

Matt Mochary: Great question.

马特·莫卡里：好问题。

To me, the bar is fear and how strongly do people feel fear?

对我来说，障碍就是恐惧，人们的恐惧感有多强烈？

There are few people that I coach that just don't feel fear at all.

在我指导的人中，很少有人完全不感到恐惧。

And frankly with them, we have very tactical conversations, but they're the minority.

坦率地说，我们与他们进行了非常战术性的对话，但他们只是少数。

The most feel fear to some degree, some feel it a lot, some feel it less, but when they feel it grips their mind and it prevents them from seeing...

大多数人都会在某种程度上感到恐惧，有些人感觉很多，有些人感觉较少，但当他们感到恐惧抓住他们的思想并阻止他们看到......

It prevents them from doing the thing that is difficult but necessary, so that's a lot of what our coaching is, me pointing out to them, hey, I think you're in fear.

它阻止他们做困难但必要的事情，所以这就是我们的教练的很多内容，我向他们指出，嘿，我认为你感到恐惧。

Matt Mochary: What happens is very early on in coaching they'll go, yeah, okay, I'm in fear.

马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）：在执教的早期，他们会发生什么，是的，好吧，我很害怕。

So what?

所以呢？

I go, great.

我去，太好了。

I believe that fear is actually giving you bad advice and I think you're predicting that if you do this A will happen.

我相信恐惧实际上给了你不好的建议，我认为你在预测如果你这样做，A就会发生。

Well, I'm predicting that if you do that, the exact opposite will happen.

好吧，我预测如果你这样做，将会发生完全相反的情况。

So, I'll tell you what, why don't we make a bet?

那么，我告诉你，我们为什么不打个赌呢？

This is very high stakes, why don't we pick something that's lower stakes?

这是非常高的风险，为什么我们不选择风险较低的东西呢？

You make a prediction, we'll see if I make the opposite and then let's bet on it.

你做出一个预测，我们会看看我是否做出相反的预测，然后我们就押注一下。

So we pick something and then we make a bet on it, and whoever wins the bet in the future gets to determine what the actions are.

所以我们选择一些东西，然后对它下注，无论谁在未来赢得了赌注，都可以决定采取什么行动。

Matt Mochary: I've made this bet hundreds of times and so far, I've never lost.

马特·莫卡里：我已经下了数百次这样的赌注，到目前为止，我从未输过。

It's not because I'm magician or a genius, it's because when someone's in fear, they're gripped.

这并不是因为我是魔术师或天才，而是因为当有人处于恐惧之中时，他们就会被抓住。

They can't see reality, their brain is making very exaggerated predictions.

他们看不到现实，他们的大脑正在做出非常夸张的预测。

Whereas when someone is not in fear, and I'm not because it's not my situation, I am not gripped and therefore, my brain isn't making exaggerated predictions.

而当某人不感到恐惧时，我也不害怕，因为这不是我的情况，我就不会被抓住，因此，我的大脑不会做出夸大的预测。

And so, we make this bet once I win, then all of a sudden the CEO realizes, oh my God, there's something to this, fear gives bad advice.

因此，一旦我赢了，我们就下注，然后首席执行官突然意识到，天哪，这有问题，恐惧给出了糟糕的建议。

Then after that, all I need to do is remind the person that I perceive them to be in fear.

然后，我需要做的就是提醒那个人我认为他们处于恐惧之中。

That's all it takes, and they're like, oh, okay, and then they go ahead and do the thing that they feel fear about.

这就是所需要的一切，他们就像，哦，好吧，然后他们继续做他们感到害怕的事情。

Then of course, later they come back to me and say, Matt, that was magical.

当然，后来他们回来对我说，马特，这太神奇了。

It works so well.

效果很好。

Matt Mochary: I mean, I'll give you examples.

马特·莫卡里：我的意思是，我会给你举例子。

The most extreme is when a CEO realizes that there's a problem in the business and they haven't told their board yet and their board doesn't know, and remember, their board is their investors, and they have another round coming up, they know they're going to have to raise money in another six to 12 months.

最极端的是，当首席执行官意识到业务存在问题，但他们还没有告诉董事会，而董事会也不知道时，请记住，他们的董事会是他们的投资者，而且他们即将进行另一轮融资，他们知道他们将不得不在接下来的 6 到 12 个月内筹集资金。

They need their current investors to participate in the upcoming round, otherwise outside investors won't.

他们需要现有投资者参与下一轮融资，否则外部投资者不会参与。

Then they say, well, what the hell do I do?

然后他们说，好吧，我到底该怎么办？

I've got this problem.

我有这个问题。

Do I tell my investors?

我会告诉我的投资者吗？

And most often, the knee jerk reaction is, no, I'm not going to tell them.

大多数情况下，下意识的反应是，不，我不会告诉他们。

Matt Mochary: Then I say, "Well, I think that's fear.

马特·莫卡里：然后我说，“嗯，我认为这就是恐惧。

I think if you actually tell them, tell your investors, the exact opposite of what we think is going to happen is going to happen.

我认为，如果你真的告诉他们，告诉你的投资者，就会发生与我们想象的完全相反的情况。

You think you're going to lose their trust.

你认为你会失去他们的信任。

I think you're going to gain their trust." And so, if we've done this fear exercise before, they do it, they share transparently with their board all the problems and say, and I'm excited to tackle these problems.

我认为你会赢得他们的信任。”因此，如果我们以前做过这种恐惧练习，他们就会这样做，他们会与董事会透明地分享所有问题，并说，我很高兴能够解决这些问题。

Every single time that's happened, the board members have said, "This is fantastic.

每次发生这种情况，董事会成员都会说：“这太棒了。

I love this honesty.

我喜欢这种诚实。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

This is one of the only companies that I'm on the board of that actually is transparent and honest," and they gain trust.

这是我在董事会任职的唯一一家实际上是透明和诚实的公司之一，”并且他们赢得了信任。

Lenny: I'm glad that you brought this topic up.

莱尼：我很高兴你提出这个话题。

I wanted to spend time on it.

我想花时间在上面。

Just to double click a little bit into it, just kind of to summarize your advice here, if you feel fear, which you may not recognize you feel, the advice is: do the opposite of what your brain is telling you to do, right?

只需双击一下它，就可以在这里总结您的建议，如果您感到恐惧，您可能没有意识到自己的感觉，建议是：做与大脑告诉您做的相反的事情，对吗？

Matt Mochary: Generally, I mean, check with someone.

马特·莫卡里：一般来说，我的意思是，与某人核实。

Don't just randomly, I feel fear crossing the street crossing a crowded highway and then go, oh, that's fear talking.

不要只是随意地过马路，穿过拥挤的高速公路，然后走，哦，那是恐惧在说话。

I should cross the highway anyway and then get hit by a cop.

无论如何，我应该穿过高速公路，然后被警察撞到。

No, that's not what I mean.

不，我不是这个意思。

I don't mean physical danger, I mean things that we perceive to be danger to our egos, but that the easiest thing is just to check with somebody else who's not in fear because they will be able to see clearly when you can't.

我指的不是身体上的危险，我指的是我们认为对我们的自尊有危险的事情，但最简单的事情就是与其他不害怕的人核实，因为当你看不清楚时，他们能够看清楚。

Lenny: I was working through your curriculum and you pointed out that you found a way to express to somebody that they are in fear.

莱尼：我正在研究您的课程，您指出您找到了一种向某人表达他们感到恐惧的方法。

I think it was your wife that kind of iterated on how to give you feedback that you're in fear where you didn't get defensive, you got more fearful and angry and can you talk a bit about that?

我认为是你的妻子反复询问如何向你提供反馈，表明你在没有防御的情况下处于恐惧之中，你变得更加恐惧和愤怒，你能谈谈这一点吗？

Matt Mochary: Yeah, so we iterated, I at times feel anger and I act on that anger and I don't even realize I'm in anger, so I wanted her to let me know, and so she would say, at first she said, "You're in anger," and that just made me feel accused and made me go into more anger.

马特·莫卡里：是的，所以我们反复强调，我有时会感到愤怒，我会根据这种愤怒采取行动，但我什至没有意识到我在愤怒，所以我想让她让我知道，所以她会说，一开始她说，“你在愤怒，”这让我感到被指责，让我变得更加愤怒。

And then she said, "Are you in anger?" And that felt passive aggressive or indirect and that also made me go into more anger.

然后她说：“你生气了吗？”这让人感觉被动攻击或间接，这也让我变得更加愤怒。

Then finally she said, "I perceive you to be an anger." So it's an I statement and it's simply what she's perceiving.

最后她说：“我认为你是一种愤怒。”所以这是一个我的陈述，这只是她的感知。

There's no judgment.

没有判断力。

That was able to punch through my anger and then I woke up and went, oh, and then I stopped and just didn't act until I was able to shift out of anger.

这能够消除我的愤怒，然后我醒来，然后，哦，然后我停下来，直到我能够摆脱愤怒为止。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And anger and fear, I think there's different pieces of advice for if you feel angry versus fear.

愤怒和恐惧，我认为如果你感到愤怒和恐惧，有不同的建议。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Matt Mochary: Yes.

马特·莫卡里：是的。

I mean, anger, you're just destroying and what you're doing is you're destroying relationships and so you just got to stop because you're breaking glass.

我的意思是，愤怒，你只是在破坏，你所做的就是破坏人际关系，所以你必须停止，因为你正在打破玻璃。

Of course, you're breaking it with the people who are closest to you.

当然，你会和最亲近的人断绝关系。

They're the people who are nearest to you, which are the people you love and care about the most.

他们是你最亲近的人，是你最爱、最在乎的人。

They're not only people you work with, but they're the people you live with and you don't want to do that.

他们不仅是与你一起工作的人，而且是与你一起生活的人，而你不想这样做。

You don't want to hurt them.

你不想伤害他们。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Maybe one last question along these lines, why do we do this?

也许最后一个问题是，我们为什么要这样做？

Is this just we're trying to protect our ego and ourselves and we just want to do the safe thing?

这是否只是我们试图保护我们的自我和我们自己，我们只是想做安全的事情？

Matt Mochary: That's it.

马特·莫卡里：就是这样。

I mean, I just learned very recently, and this isn't written anywhere because I just learned it, someone shared with me that anger is not a base emotion.

我的意思是，我最近才知道，这没有写在任何地方，因为我刚刚知道，有人与我分享愤怒不是一种基本情绪。

Anger is actually a cover.

愤怒其实是一种掩饰。

It's a cover for when we feel pain, and so our brain doesn't want to feel the pain, so instead it externalizes it.

当我们感到疼痛时，它是一种掩饰，所以我们的大脑不想感受到疼痛，所以它会将疼痛外化。

But the problem is it shoves that pain onto everybody else around us.

但问题是它把这种痛苦推给了我们周围的其他人。

The real answer here is not to have people let us know that we're in anger and then stop.

真正的答案是不要让人们知道我们很生气，然后就停下来。

The real answer is just to allow ourselves to feel the pain and it sucks by the way, it actually hurts.

真正的答案只是让我们自己感受痛苦，顺便说一句，这很糟糕，实际上很痛。

But then we're not...

但那时我们不...

Sorry, I'm getting emotional.

抱歉，我情绪激动了。

We're not pushing that out onto other people and I only learned this very recently and I'm just starting to practice this and I'm still not good at it, but I'm now at least sometimes not going to anger.

我们不会把这一点强加给其他人，我最近才知道这一点，我刚刚开始练习这一点，我仍然不擅长，但我现在至少有时不会生气。

Lenny: It's interesting how personal this advice is that it sounds like something that you deal with.

莱尼：有趣的是，这个建议非常个人化，听起来就像是你正在处理的事情。

It's not just like you're this coach that's just like, hey guys, here's all these problems you have.

这不仅仅是因为你是这位教练，就像，嘿伙计们，这就是你遇到的所有这些问题。

Here's how you fix stuff that you help yourself with.

以下是您如何自行解决问题的方法。

Matt Mochary: I'm human.

马特·莫卡里：我是人类。

Yes, and that's why I try to figure it out with me and if I can figure something out with me, then I can share it with others.

是的，这就是为什么我尝试与自己一起解决问题，如果我能与自己解决一些问题，那么我就可以与其他人分享。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That was a fruitful question from Leo, and we might come back to this topic.

Leo 提出了一个富有成效的问题，我们可能会回到这个话题。

Matt Mochary: By the way, this also applies to organizations.

马特·莫卡里：顺便说一句，这也适用于组织。

I mean, the way that I used to get all this information about how to run organizations is I started a company, Totality, and my co-founder and I, we did a terrible job running that company.

我的意思是，我用来获取所有有关如何运营组织的信息的方式是我创办了一家公司，Totality，而我和我的联合创始人，我们在运营该公司方面做得很糟糕。

What happened was I didn't have any learnings from that which I could share with people because it was just worst practices, not best practices.

发生的事情是我没有从中学到任何可以与人们分享的经验，因为这只是最糟糕的实践，而不是最佳实践。

But then 10 years later, I thought to myself, well, how could I have done that better?

但十年后，我心想，我怎样才能做得更好呢？

How could we have done that better?

我们怎样才能做得更好呢？

Matt Mochary: So, I picked up a book, a business book, it was High Output Management by Andy Grove.

马特·莫卡里：所以，我拿起一本书，一本商业书，是安迪·格罗夫写的《高产出管理》。

I read it and I was like, "Oh my God, here are all the answers." And then I read another book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz was like, "Oh my God, there are even more answers." I just kept reading more and more business books, and every one I read, they were just chock full of answers.

我读完之后就想：“天哪，这就是所有的答案。”然后我读了另一本书，本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）写的《关于困难的困难》（The Hard Thing About Hard Things），就像，“天哪，还有更多的答案。”我不断地阅读越来越多的商业书籍，而我读的每一本都充满了答案。

But then I needed to test whether or not these really worked, so that's when I started coaching and I started testing them in companies, but I had to let the people know here, do this, but they weren't going to read a 350 page book.

但后来我需要测试这些是否真的有效，所以就在那时我开始辅导并开始在公司中测试它们，但我必须让这里的人们知道，这样做，但他们不会阅读一本 350 页的书。

I had to summarize it in two pages and then share it with them, and then they did, and then they implemented it and it worked.

我必须将其总结为两页，然后与他们分享，然后他们就这样做了，然后他们实施了它并且成功了。

Matt Mochary: Then I had all these summaries, and then I started to create my own summaries of little niche cases that weren't in any book that I'd read.

马特·莫卡里：然后我有了所有这些摘要，然后我开始创建自己的小利基案例摘要，这些案例在我读过的任何书中都没有。

That's where all these writings came from.

这就是所有这些著作的来源。

Then one day, someone that I was coaching said, "Matt, you got to take all these writings.

然后有一天，我辅导的一个人说：“马特，你必须记下所有这些著作。

They're a book, you got to publish them." And I said, "No, I don't." My friend said, "Well, how about I do all the work?

它们是一本书，你必须出版它们。”我说：“不，我不。”我的朋友说：“好吧，我来做所有的工作怎么样？

How about I take care of the editing and the publishing?" And I was like, "Okay, if you want to do that, great." That was Alex MacCaw.

我来负责编辑和出版怎么样？”我当时想，“好吧，如果你想这么做，那就太好了。”那是亚历克斯·麦考。

Others had offered before, but he was the one that actually followed through all the way to the end.

别人都提出过，但他却是真正坚持到底的。

That was it.

就是这样。

That's how the book was born.

这本书就是这样诞生的。

Matt Mochary: But I realized also, recently, that many of my most radical ideas, I can't get anyone to test them because I'll say, "Hey, I think you should do blank." And the CEO will say, "That sounds crazy.

马特·莫卡里：但我最近也意识到，我的许多最激进的想法，我无法让任何人测试它们，因为我会说，“嘿，我认为你应该做空白。”首席执行官会说：“这听起来很疯狂。

Matt, can you point me to other examples of other people that have done this and it's worked?" And I say, "No, this is an original thought that came out of my head.

马特，你能给我指出其他人已经这样做并且有效的例子吗？”我说：“不，这是我脑子里的一个原创想法。

No one's done it before that I know of." They're like, "Okay, well I'm not going to be the first."

据我所知，之前没有人这样做过。”他们会说，“好吧，我不会是第一个。”

Matt Mochary: Then I realized I needed an organization to test my most radical ideas, and also all of my CEOs had been asking me to create software because I have a methodology and it's step one, step two, step three, and you do it in one-on-ones and then a methodology for a team meeting and then a methodology for feedback and then a methodology for every different motion in the company.

马特·莫卡里：然后我意识到我需要一个组织来测试我最激进的想法，而且我所有的首席执行官都要求我创建软件，因为我有一个方法论，它是第一步、第二步、第三步，你可以一对一地进行，然后是团队会议的方法论，然后是反馈的方法论，然后是公司中每个不同动作的方法论。

It's all in Google Docs.

这一切都在 Google 文档中。

And they said to me, "Matt, this is amazing.

他们对我说：“马特，这太棒了。

I love this one-on-one process.

我喜欢这种一对一的过程。

I love your team process, but I don't want to have to teach each of my reports the way you've taught me.

我喜欢你们的团队流程，但我不想按照你们教我的方式来教我的每一份报告。

I'd like it just being softer.

我希望它能更柔软一些。

I just hit a button and boom, it happens automatically." At first, I said, "No, that's not interesting to me.

我只需按一下按钮，然后就会自动发生。”起初，我说：“不，我对此不感兴趣。

I'm not a developer.

我不是开发人员。

You, Brian Armstrong, you're a developer and you have a thousand engineers that work for you.

你，布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗，你是一名开发人员，你有一千名工程师为你工作。

Why don't you go create it?"

你为什么不去创造它呢？”

Matt Mochary: But in the end, I said, "Okay, this could be fun." So, I hired a team of developers and we started to create the software, and one, the product is working.

马特·莫卡里：但最后，我说，“好吧，这可能很有趣。”因此，我聘请了一个开发团队，我们开始创建软件，并且产品正在运行。

But two more importantly, I now have a team of humans that we work together that I can start testing my more radical ideas out with.

但更重要的是，我现在拥有一个我们一起工作的团队，我可以开始测试我更激进的想法。

I would say about half of them are wildly successful and the other half complete duds.

我想说，其中大约一半非常成功，而另一半则完全失败。

It almost seems like one are the other.

看起来几乎就像一个是另一个。

But now I have my own basically laboratory to test things.

但现在我基本上有了自己的实验室来测试东西。

Of course, when I see radical things that other people are doing, I try them in our organization, and it's phenomenal.

当然，当我看到其他人正在做的激进事情时，我会在我们的组织中尝试它们，这是惊人的。

Matt Mochary: I'll tell you the most radical one.

马特·莫卡里：我会告诉你最激进的一个。

I was asking one CEO, I said, "Have you ever let someone go and regretted it?" He said, "No." And I said, "Well, then you don't know what the bar is because the bar of where you should be letting people go is here, and the bar that you've let people go is here.

我问一位首席执行官，我说：“你曾经让某人离开并感到后悔吗？”他说：“不。”我说：“好吧，那么你不知道界限是什么，因为你应该让人们离开的界限就在这里，而你让人们离开的界限就在这里。

So until you get close to that line, you don't know what that line is." He said, "Wow, that's true." Then I thought about it and I thought to myself, uh-oh, I have never let anyone go that I regret it, so I don't know where the line is.

因此，在你接近那条线之前，你不知道那条线是什么。”他说：“哇，这是真的。”然后我想了想，我心里想，呃哦，我从来没有让任何人离开让我后悔，所以我不知道底线在哪里。

Matt Mochary: Then I thought, oh no, I've got to go into my team and let someone go, and here's the problem.

马特·莫卡里：然后我想，哦不，我必须进入我的团队并让某人离开，这就是问题。

We've already done talent density, we've already done the Netflix thing.

我们已经做到了人才密度，我们已经做到了 Netflix 的事情。

If someone is meeting expectation, we let them go.

如果有人达到期望，我们就会让他们离开。

We've already let all those folks go.

我们已经让所有这些人走了。

So on our team, it's only outperformers.

所以在我们的团队中，只有表现出色的人。

So, I thought there was one guy, he's an outperformer, no question about it, and super positive, an amazing guy and can do anything and is happy to do everything.

所以，我认为有一个人，他是一个表现出色的人，毫无疑问，而且超级积极，一个了不起的人，可以做任何事情，并且很高兴做所有事情。

But there wasn't much left for him to do because everything else was being covered.

但他没有什么可做的了，因为其他一切都被覆盖了。

I talked to my number two and said, "Can you do what you're doing and what he's doing?" And she said, "Give me two weeks," and she did.

我对我的二号人物说：“你能做你正在做的事情和他正在做的事情吗？”她说：“给我两周时间”，她就这么做了。

She came back and said, "Yeah, I can." So, we let him go.

她回来说：“是的，我可以。”所以，我们就让他走了。

Matt Mochary: Now, when I let someone go, I try to do it with a massive amount of compassion because I know it's brutal.

马特·莫卡里：现在，当我让某人离开时，我会尽力怀着极大的同情心，因为我知道这很残酷。

I mean, losing your spouse, your home, and your job, these are the three most traumatic things that can happen to you.

我的意思是，失去你的配偶、你的家和你的工作，这是可能发生在你身上最痛苦的三件事。

When that happens, of course you go into massive fear and the brain shuts down, so I want to be there and help them through that process and actively help them find their dream job because there is a place that absolutely needs them.

当这种情况发生时，你当然会陷入巨大的恐惧，大脑就会停止运转，所以我想在那里帮助他们完成这个过程，并积极帮助他们找到梦想的工作，因为有一个地方绝对需要他们。

So, what I do is I become their agent and I say, "I want to help you discover what it is that your ideal role is, and I want to help you create it or land it." I did that with him.

所以，我所做的就是成为他们的经纪人，我说，“我想帮助你发现你的理想角色是什么，我想帮助你创造它或获得它。”我和他就是这么做的。

Turns out, what he wanted to do was go start a company and create a new product so he could just start that day one.

事实证明，他想做的是创办一家公司并创造一种新产品，这样他就可以从第一天开始。

But, the litmus for me is that everybody I've let go, I believe anyway, that I continue to be friends with.

但是，对我来说，最重要的是我已经放手的每个人，无论如何，我相信我仍然是朋友。

That shows me that the process by which I let people go is a humane one.

这表明我解雇员工的过程是人道的。

Matt Mochary: Here's the crazy thing, after letting this guy go, after about 30 days, I was like, ugh, did I do the wrong thing?

马特·莫卡里：这是一件疯狂的事情，在让这个人离开后，大约 30 天后，我就想，呃，我做错事了吗？

Was that too much?

是不是太多了？

But then after about two to three months, I realized, no, that actually was the right thing because my number two was able to absorb the things that he was doing and here's the crazy part, with fewer people in the organization, things work better.

但大约两三个月后，我意识到，不，这实际上是正确的事情，因为我的二号人物能够吸收他正在做的事情，这就是疯狂的部分，组织中的人员较少，事情运作得更好。

That's the big realization that most people never discover.

这是大多数人从未发现的重大认识。

they hit product market fit, they get tons of money from investors, just higher, higher, higher, higher, but every additional human you have in your organization causes extra overhead and geometrically so, because now you have to keep all those people informed, give them all context, make them all feel heard, because unless they feel like they're contributing and you understand what they're saying, then they feel ignored and they feel passed over and they feel disrespected and grumpy.

他们达到了产品市场契合度，他们从投资者那里获得了大量的资金，只是更高、更高、更高、更高，但是你的组织中每增加一个人都会造成额外的开销，而且是几何级数的，因为现在你必须让所有这些人了解情况，给他们提供所有背景信息，让他们都感到被倾听，因为除非他们觉得自己在做出贡献并且你理解他们在说什么，否则他们会感到被忽视，他们感到被忽视，他们感到不受尊重和脾气暴躁。

Matt Mochary: There's this morale problem that exists.

马特·莫卡里：士气问题确实存在。

There's this friction of information flow and a morale problem that grows and grows and grows.

信息流的摩擦和士气问题日益严重。

Really, the only answer is, I mean, that's why people bring me in because they're growing, growing, growing, and things are breaking.

真的，唯一的答案是，我的意思是，这就是人们带我进来的原因，因为他们正在成长、成长、成长，而事情正在破裂。

I have a system that keeps things together, but it doesn't make it perfect.

我有一个将事物整合在一起的系统，但它并没有使其变得完美。

It just makes it so that the company doesn't fall apart.

它只是为了让公司不会崩溃。

But really the ideal is just to keep the team super small.

但真正的理想只是让团队保持超小规模。

That's what WhatsApp did, that's what Instagram did, that's what Linear is doing right now.

这就是 WhatsApp 所做的，这就是 Instagram 所做的，这就是 Linear 现在正在做的。

That's what Notion has been doing for a while.

这就是 Notion 一段时间以来一直在做的事情。

Those, to me, are the real success stories.

对我来说，这些才是真正的成功故事。

Lenny: This reminds me of a story I just listened to on Lex Fridman's podcast.

莱尼：这让我想起了我刚刚在莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客上听到的一个故事。

They were interviewing the head of AI at Tesla, or former head of AI, and Lex was asking him, "Why did you get rid of LiDAR on your cars?

他们正在采访特斯拉的人工智能负责人，或者说前任人工智能负责人，莱克斯问他：“你为什么要去掉汽车上的激光雷达？

Like aren't more sensors good so that you can be better at self-driving?" And he's like, "If you have LiDAR, you got to think about the supply chain and getting all those parts.

就像更多的传感器不是可以让你更好地自动驾驶一样吗？”他说，“如果你有激光雷达，你就必须考虑供应链并获取所有这些零件。

You got to think about all the additional data that it brings and adds more chaos to your data, and you have to think about that.

你必须考虑它带来的所有额外数据，并给你的数据增加更多混乱，你必须考虑这一点。

Think about if that one part is gone, everything slows down, and in theory it is better, but then all these other factors end up making it worse." Talking about how Elon's philosophy is the best part is no part.

想想看，如果那一部分消失了，一切都会变慢，理论上会更好，但所有其他因素最终都会让情况变得更糟。”谈论埃隆的哲学如何是最好的部分是没有部分的。

It feels like that's exactly what you're saying.

感觉就像你说的那样。

Lenny: You're getting to all the stuff I want to talk about, which is awesome.

莱尼：你谈到了我想谈论的所有内容，这太棒了。

So firing people, this is good.

所以解雇人，这很好。

We were chatting earlier and you mentioned that this is a skill that most managers are really bad at and maybe is the most important skill to develop as a leader and as a manager.

我们之前聊天时，您提到这是大多数经理非常不擅长的一项技能，也许是作为领导者和经理需要培养的最重要的技能。

People are just bad at it.

人们只是不擅长而已。

You shared a few pieces of advice there, but is there anything else that you could share about just how to get better at firing people and that skill?

您在那里分享了一些建议，但是关于如何更好地解雇员工和这项技能，您还有什么可以分享的吗？

Matt Mochary: Yeah, the reason people are bad at this is because they think that they're hurting the person who they're letting go.

马特·莫卡里：是的，人们不擅长这样做的原因是因为他们认为他们正在伤害他们要放手的人。

I mean, how many times have I heard from someone, "Yeah, this person's not performing, but gosh, they really need this job and their mother has cancer," and whatever personal situation they're in.

我的意思是，我有多少次听到有人说，“是的，这个人表现不佳，但是天哪，他们真的需要这份工作，而他们的母亲患有癌症”，无论他们处于什么个人情况。

Wei Deng, who is the CEO of Clipboard Health, who's one of my favorite CEOs, who frankly I learn more from her than she learns from me, she shared with me her framework for making decisions, which is she separates the decision from the implementation, meaning she thinks about who is the stakeholder here that I'm solving for?

邓伟，Clipboard Health 的首席执行官，是我最喜欢的首席执行官之一，坦白说，我从她身上学到的东西比她从我身上学到的东西还多，她与我分享了她的决策框架，即将决策与实施分开，这意味着她会思考我要解决的问题的利益相关者是谁？

And almost always in a company, you're solving for the customer.

在公司里，你几乎总是在为客户解决问题。

So, what would the customer want to see happen?

那么，客户希望看到什么情况发生呢？

That's the decision.

这就是决定。

Of course, the customer would want to see only the best employees and anyone who isn't a great employee, don't be there.

当然，客户只想看到最好的员工，任何不是优秀员工的人都不要在那里。

Matt Mochary: Now the implementation is, if I do this, if I let this person go, who gets hurt?

马特·莫卡里：现在的实施是，如果我这样做，如果我让这个人离开，谁会受到伤害？

Well, the employee gets hurt.

好吧，员工受伤了。

Maybe I get hurt because it's a painful conversation.

也许我受伤了，因为这是一次痛苦的谈话。

Maybe the rest of the team gets hurt because they're sad that their friend is leaving.

也许团队的其他成员会因为朋友的离开而感到难过而受伤。

Then you look at, well, what can we do?

然后你看看，好吧，我们能做什么？

Each person who gets hurt, what is it that they really want?

每个受到伤害的人，他们真正想要的是什么？

Let's see if we can help them get what they really want.

让我们看看我们能否帮助他们得到他们真正想要的东西。

Well, the person let go, what do they want?

那么，人放手了，他们想要什么？

They want a great job where they're actually needed and they feel fulfilled, so they enjoy what they're doing and they're actually critical to the company or organization that they're with.

他们想要一份真正需要他们的好工作，并且他们感到满足，因此他们喜欢他们正在做的事情，并且他们实际上对他们所在的公司或组织至关重要。

Right now they're not, by the way, they're not critical, clearly.

顺便说一句，现在他们显然并不挑剔。

So you're actually holding them back from what it is that they really want.

所以你实际上是在阻碍他们得到他们真正想要的东西。

Matt Mochary: What you do is you help them find that place that really needs the skill or the passion that they have.

马特·莫卡里：你所做的就是帮助他们找到真正需要他们所拥有的技能或热情的地方。

Yourself, what do you really want?

你自己，你真正想要什么？

You want to not have a difficult conversation?

你不想进行一场艰难的谈话吗？

Well, cognitive behavior therapy, the best way to get over that is to actually have one and realize it's not that bad.

好吧，认知行为疗法，克服这个问题的最好方法就是实际进行认知行为疗法并意识到它并没有那么糟糕。

Then the rest of the team, they feel sad because their teammate left.

然后团队的其他人，他们因为队友的离开而感到悲伤。

Well, here's how you solve what they really want is they want to know that...

好吧，这就是你如何解决他们真正想要的问题，他们想知道......

They want to release their emotions.

他们想要释放自己的情绪。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Listen to them, let them share their emotions, let them share the sadness that they feel, and then it's released out of their body.

倾听他们的声音，让他们分享他们的情绪，让他们分享他们所感受到的悲伤，然后它就会从他们的身体中释放出来。

Matt Mochary: Decision is one thing, implementation is completely and utterly separate.

马特·莫卡里：决策是一回事，实施是完全独立的。

That's the same thing here in letting someone go.

放走某人也是同样的事情。

But if you let them go kindly and humanely, the key is, in my opinion, you become their agent, like Michael Ovitz, the CAA agent.

但在我看来，如果你仁慈地、人道地让他们离开，关键是你要成为他们的代理人，就像 CAA 代理人迈克尔·奥维茨 (Michael Ovitz) 一样。

You help them find their next job actively.

你积极帮助他们找到下一份工作。

Michael Ovitz is the one who reaches out to employers for his clients and says, "Hey, do you have work for my client?" That's what I mean by being agent, not by, if you need a reference from me, I'll be happy to give you reference.

迈克尔·奥维茨 (Michael Ovitz) 会为他的客户联系雇主，并说：“嘿，你能为我的客户找到工作吗？”这就是我所说的代理的意思，而不是代理，如果您需要我的推荐，我很乐意为您提供推荐。

That's bullshit, that's passive.

这就是废话，被动。

Matt Mochary: I'm talking about active, and it doesn't take long.

Matt Mochary：我说的是活跃，而且不需要很长时间。

Maybe one to two hours of my time reaching out to people I know saying, "Hey, I've got this great person." Oh my God, of course they're going to pay attention.

也许我会花一到两个小时的时间与我认识的人联系，说：“嘿，我找到了这个很棒的人。”天啊，他们当然会注意的。

Of course, they're going to react.

当然，他们会做出反应。

Now you might say, well, wait a second, what if the person isn't great?

现在你可能会说，好吧，等一下，如果这个人不好怎么办？

What if they're a bad performer and my posit is that they're good at something.

如果他们表现不佳而我认为他们擅长某件事怎么办？

You have to find out what it is they're good at.

你必须找出他们擅长什么。

And really what they're good at is what they're passionate about, so find out what they're passionate about and that you can recommend them for.

事实上，他们所擅长的正是他们所热衷的，所以找出他们所热衷的，并且你可以推荐他们。

That's what I do.

这就是我所做的。

Matt Mochary: I think for almost all managers that aren't good at letting go, it's because A, they've never done it, or B, they've done it badly.

马特·莫卡里：我认为对于几乎所有不善于放手的管理者来说，这是因为A，他们从未这样做过，或者B，他们做得很糟糕。

They didn't help the person, and that person then went off and had a very painful time and now hates that manager.

他们没有帮助这个人，然后那个人就走了，度过了一段非常痛苦的时光，现在讨厌那个经理。

But if you actively help that person, they will appreciate it.

但如果你积极帮助那个人，他们会感激的。

Now, there are situations when a person says, "Screw you, I don't want your help." Okay, but they still recognize that you offered.

现在，在某些情况下，一个人会说：“管你的，我不需要你的帮助。”好的，但他们仍然认可你的提议。

Lenny: Who's the best person at firing that comes to mind when you think of this person's really good at this?

莱尼：当你认为这个人真的很擅长解雇时，你会想到谁是最擅长解雇的人？

Matt Mochary: Wei Deng from Clipboard Health.

Matt Mochary：来自 Clipboard Health 的 Wei Deng。

She's the most compassionate.

她是最有同情心的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

The framework you shared reminds me of something my manager once taught me similarly.

你分享的框架让我想起了我的经理曾经教过我的类似内容。

They missed the final piece of actually being their agent and finding their next gig, but just the idea of separate the emotion and doing the thing from, if there were no feelings involved, what would you do?

他们错过了真正成为他们的经纪人并找到下一份工作的最后一部分，但只是将情感和做事分开的想法，如果不涉及情感，你会做什么？

And then you should do that, and that might be hard.

然后你应该这样做，但这可能很难。

Matt Mochary: That's exactly right.

马特·莫卡里：完全正确。

By the way, this whole thing about no feelings, I do have probably two CEOs that don't feel emotions.

顺便说一句，关于没有感情的整个事情，我确实可能有两位没有感情的首席执行官。

They don't feel fear, they don't feel anger.

他们不会感到恐惧，也不会感到愤怒。

One, in particular, feels zero emotions.

尤其是一种感觉为零的情绪。

I have to say, he's a machine, he's an operating machine and there's zero time between ah, this is the right thing to do and doing it.

我不得不说，他是一台机器，他是一台运转的机器，中间是零时间啊，这是正确的事情，做起来。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

It's an incredibly well run company and an incredibly valuable company.

这是一家经营得非常好的公司，也是一家非常有价值的公司。

So yeah, emotions typically, again, typically fear and anger are the ones that derail our brains.

所以，是的，情绪通常会导致我们的大脑脱轨，恐惧和愤怒通常也是如此。

Lenny: It makes me think of Alex Honnold, I think is his name, the free climber, the solo dude.

莱尼：这让我想起了亚历克斯·霍诺德，我想这就是他的名字，自由攀登者，独行者。

His amygdala doesn't quite function so he doesn't-

他的杏仁核功能不太正常，所以他不能-

Lenny: That's interesting.

莱尼：这很有趣。

He could be a free solo climber, he could be a CEO.

他可以成为一名自由攀岩者，也可以成为一名首席执行官。

Matt Mochary: That's right.

马特·莫卡里：没错。

CEO's a little safer.

CEO比较安全一点。

The prediction for Alex is that he will at some point, unfortunately die.

对亚历克斯的预测是他将在某个时候不幸地死去。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Did you see The Alpinist?

你看过《登山者》吗？

Not to spoil anything.

不是为了破坏任何东西。

Lenny: Okay, moving on from that, I'm curious, in a remote world, does your advice change in terms of firing?

莱尼：好的，接下来，我很好奇，在一个遥远的世界里，你在解雇方面的建议会改变吗？

It seems like everything you shared you could do easily in person or remote, but does something change when you're doing it over Zoom?

看起来您分享的所有内容都可以轻松地亲自或远程完成，但是当您通过 Zoom 进行时，情况会发生变化吗？

Matt Mochary: No, it doesn't change at all.

马特·莫卡里：不，它根本没有改变。

There is one point I didn't include, which I'll include now, is there's helping the person be their agent, but there's also allowing the person, whenever I have a difficult conversation, I start it off, "Hey, this is going to be a difficult conversation.

有一点我没有包括在内，现在我要包括在内，那就是帮助这个人成为他们的代理人，但也允许这个人，每当我有一个困难的谈话时，我开始它，“嘿，这将是一个困难的谈话。

I want you to take a few seconds and prepare yourself.

我希望你花几秒钟做好准备。

You are not going to enjoy this." What I found is that the way the amygdala gets triggered is often because of surprise.

你不会享受这个的。”我发现杏仁核被触发的方式往往是因为惊讶。

So, if you give someone just a few seconds to mentally prepare, then the amygdala often doesn't get triggered nearly as hard because if they're aware that they're going to go into fear, they're going to go into anger, they're going to go into sadness, then they can see it coming and they go, oh, that's what it is.

所以，如果你只给某人几秒钟的时间进行心理准备，那么杏仁核通常不会被那么强烈地触发，因为如果他们意识到他们将陷入恐惧，他们将陷入愤怒，他们将陷入悲伤，然后他们可以看到它的到来，他们就会走，哦，就是这样。

But if they don't see it coming, just a surprise and all of a sudden it grips their whole brain and now they're in it and they don't even know they're in it.

但如果他们没有预见到它的到来，只是一个惊喜，突然间它抓住了他们的整个大脑，现在他们就在其中，但他们甚至不知道自己在其中。

Matt Mochary: That's the first thing I do.

马特·莫卡里：这是我做的第一件事。

This is going to be a difficult conversation.

这将是一次艰难的对话。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Then I share the news.

然后我分享这个消息。

I'm letting you go, here's why.

我让你走，这就是原因。

Then second, I deliver the message.

其次，我传递消息。

The third thing is now they're feeling emotions, strong ones.

第三件事是他们现在感受到了情绪，强烈的情绪。

Even though I warned them, they're still feeling them.

尽管我警告过他们，但他们仍然有这种感觉。

Now you want them to be able to release those emotions, and so I say to them, "My guess is you're feeling a lot of anger right now, fear, sadness.

现在你希望他们能够释放这些情绪，所以我对他们说，“我猜你现在感到很多愤怒、恐惧和悲伤。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

And if so, would you be willing to share with me what you're feeling and what you're thinking?" Sometimes they don't answer, but many times they do and they share with me and they let it out.

如果是这样，你愿意与我分享你的感受和想法吗？”有时他们不回答，但很多时候他们会回答，并与我分享，并将其发泄出来。

That's important to allow them to let it out.

让他们发泄出来很重要。

Then I make them feel heard and I actively listen.

然后我让他们感觉自己被倾听，并且我积极倾听。

That makes them realize that I'm not trying to run away from the pain that they're feeling.

这让他们意识到我并不是想逃避他们所感受到的痛苦。

I'm not trying to leave them alone with it.

我并不是想让他们独自承受这一切。

I sit with them as they have it and then I try to help them get through it.

当他们遇到困难时，我会坐在他们身边，然后尝试帮助他们度过难关。

Lenny: That's something else I wanted to chat about is the feeling heard lesson that you have for people.

莱尼：我想谈谈的另一件事是你为人们提供的教训的感觉。

I'd love to just get your advice on just how to help people feel heard.

我很想听听您关于如何帮助人们感到被倾听的建议。

It's like, oh yeah, I know that's important.

就像，哦，是的，我知道这很重要。

I want people to feel heard.

我希望人们感到被倾听。

I will listen and it'll go great.

我会听，一切都会很棒。

But you have some very tactical advice on how to actually make people feel heard.

但对于如何真正让人们感到被倾听，你有一些非常战术性的建议。

Matt Mochary: Yeah, there's sort of a few different levels of it.

马特·莫卡里：是的，有几个不同的层面。

One way to make people feel heard is, let's assume you're talking to them because there's another way, there's an even more surface way is verbal.

让人们感到被倾听的一种方法是，假设您正在与他们交谈，因为还有另一种方式，还有一种更表面的方式，即口头方式。

Sometimes what I do is I ask, if I'm in a group of people, and there's a question or a problem that we're trying to solve, instead of going around the room and hearing people's verbal opinions, which takes forever, I ask everyone at the same time to take five minutes to write down their solution.

有时我所做的就是问，如果我在一群人中，并且有一个我们想要解决的问题或问题，而不是在房间里走来走去，听取人们的口头意见，这需要很长时间，我要求每个人同时花五分钟写下他们的解决方案。

Then we all drop it in a doc and then I just read it.

然后我们把它放在一个文档中，然后我就读它。

When I read it I say, "Thank you, Lenny." And that makes you know that I at least read it, so that's a little bit of feeling heard.

当我读到它时，我说：“谢谢你，莱尼。”这让你知道我至少读过它，所以有一点被听到的感觉。

Matt Mochary: Second, if I want to make you feel more heard, I ask you to say it verbally and then I repeat it back to you.

马特·莫卡里：其次，如果我想让你感觉更容易被倾听，我会要求你口头说出来，然后我再重复给你听。

"Lenny, I think what I heard you say is...

“莱尼，我想我听到你说的是……

Is that right?" And you're like, "Yes." Or you're like, "No, not quite a little bit different." Then if it's a little bit different, I repeat it again until you say, "Yes, that's it." Now you know that I understood you.

是吗？”你会说：“是的。”或者你会说，“不，没什么不同。”然后，如果有一点不同，我会再次重复，直到你说：“是的，就是这样。”现在你知道我理解你了。

Matt Mochary: Then there's a third way which is even deeper, which is especially if you're giving me feedback, you likely don't want to hurt my feelings.

马特·莫卡里：还有第三种更深层次的方法，特别是如果你给我反馈，你可能不想伤害我的感情。

So what you're doing is you're giving me the feedback, but you're couching it, you're polishing it, you're rounding the edges, you're making it softer.

所以你所做的就是给我反馈，但你正在打磨它，你正在抛光它，你正在磨圆边缘，你正在使它变得更柔软。

It's not really what you're thinking, but it's what you're willing to say.

这不是你真正想的，而是你愿意说的。

If I want to make you really feel heard, I reflect back what I imagine are the thoughts in your head.

如果我想让你真正感受到被倾听，我就会反映我想象中的你头脑中的想法。

If I think you're feeling anger, I sort of think to myself, well, what would anger feel like?

如果我认为你感到愤怒，我就会想，好吧，愤怒会是什么样的感觉？

I cause myself to feel that anger, then what are the thoughts that appear to me?

我让自己感到愤怒，那么我出现的想法是什么？

I say something to you like, "Lenny, I think what I'm hearing you say is you're off and you're thinking, screw you, Matt.

我会对你说这样的话，“莱尼，我想我听到你说的是你已经离开了，你在想，去你的吧，马特。

How dare you walk into the office and not even say hello to me?

你怎么敢走进办公室连招呼都不跟我打？

Is that close?" And you're like, "No, Matt."

这么近吗？”你会说：“不，马特。”

Matt Mochary: People either say one of two things, they say, "Yeah, that is it." Or they say "No, that's stronger than what I was thinking, but directionally that's right." What that really means is, yeah, that's what I was thinking.

马特·莫卡里：人们要么说两件事之一，要么说，“是的，就是这样。”或者他们说“不，这比我想象的要强，但从方向上来说这是正确的。”这真正的意思是，是的，这就是我的想法。

Almost always their thoughts are bigger than their words, but they really feel heard when I share their thoughts.

他们的想法几乎总是比他们的言语更重要，但当我分享他们的想法时，他们真的感觉自己被倾听了。

Now, that's not the end of the process.

现在，这还不是过程的结束。

I mean you actually have to then do something.

我的意思是你实际上必须做点什么。

Once you made them feel heard, you have to say, okay, well either I accept or don't accept this feedback and if I accept, here's what I'm going to do about it.

一旦你让他们感到被倾听，你必须说，好吧，好吧，我要么接受，要么不接受这个反馈，如果我接受，这就是我将要做的事情。

If I don't accept, I need to explain to you why.

如果我不接受，我需要向你解释原因。

Here's what's going on.

这是发生的事情。

You shared with me what's going on in your world, now let me share with you what's going on in my world.

你与我分享了你的世界中发生的事情，现在让我与你分享我的世界中发生的事情。

Hopefully, you can see why this thing that's going on in my world doesn't allow me to accept what it is that you shared, and hopefully now that you see what's going on in my world, your feedback changes and that's it.

希望你能明白为什么我的世界中发生的事情不允许我接受你分享的内容，希望现在你看到我的世界中发生的事情，你的反馈发生了变化，仅此而已。

That's the whole process.

这就是整个过程。

Lenny: I'm listening to this advice and I'm like, yes, I will do this next time I'm talking to someone.

莱尼：我正在听这个建议，我想，是的，下次我与某人交谈时我会这样做。

I imagine people don't and they forget, and it takes time to actually learn these things.

我想人们不会，他们会忘记，而真正学习这些东西需要时间。

Like the firing advice you just shared, how do you actually get good at this and practice these things is like I have to work with a coach who will continue to reinforce these things?

就像您刚刚分享的解雇建议一样，您如何真正擅长并练习这些事情，就像我必须与一位将继续强化这些事情的教练一起工作一样？

Is it follow these steps next time?

下次还按这些步骤吗？

Have them written down?

他们写下来了吗？

What advice do you have for folks that are like, I want to get better at this.

对于像我想在这方面做得更好的人，您有什么建议？

I want to start doing this stuff.

我想开始做这些事情。

Matt Mochary: Well, these docs are all free to the public in the curriculum.

Matt Mochary：嗯，这些文档在课程中都是免费向公众开放的。

You can post them here, you can post them on Twitter, you can post the whole curriculum on Twitter, frankly, other people have.

你可以把它们发布在这里，你可以把它们发布在 Twitter 上，你可以把整个课程发布在 Twitter 上，坦率地说，其他人也有。

It has a step-by-step.

它有一个步骤。

There's a doc in there that is a step-by-step script.

那里有一个文档，它是一个分步脚本。

All you do is you read it and you follow the script in letting someone go or in making someone feel heard.

你所要做的就是阅读它，然后按照剧本让某人离开或让某人感到被倾听。

My posit is once you do it one time, you're like, oh my god, that worked so well.

我的观点是，一旦你做了一次，你就会觉得，天哪，效果太好了。

That's the only motivation you need.

这是你需要的唯一动力。

And you've got the script, so you can just keep doing it.

而且你已经有了剧本，所以你可以继续做下去。

I don't think you need a coach.

我认为你不需要教练。

Matt Mochary: In fact, I remember one time I asked an investor who their best up and coming CEO was.

马特·莫卡里：事实上，我记得有一次我问一位投资者，他们最好的、即将到来的首席执行官是谁。

The investor gave me a name.

投资人给了我一个名字。

I was like, "Great, can I please get introduced to him?

我当时想，“太好了，我可以介绍一下他吗？

I want coach him." I reached out, the guy responded immediately.

我想执教他。”我伸出手，那家伙立即回应了。

He's like, "Matt, I've read your book.

他就像是，“马特，我读过你的书。

I love your book.

我喜欢你的书。

I read it three years ago.

我三年前读过。

I've been implementing all the elements in our company.

我一直在我们公司实施所有要素。

It's fantastic." When someone says that they know my work, they've already implemented it and it's worked, 10 out of 10 times, that person wants me to coach them.

太棒了。”当有人说他们了解我的工作时，他们已经实施了，而且很有效，十有八九，那个人希望我指导他们。

Then I said, "Great, that's fantastic.

然后我说：“太好了，太棒了。

I'd love to coach you." And the guy said to me, "No, thanks." I was shocked.

我很乐意指导你。”那个人对我说：“不用了，谢谢。”我很震惊。

I was like, "Why?" He said, "Well, because it's all working.

我当时想，“为什么？”他说：“好吧，因为一切都在发挥作用。

I don't have any problems.

我没有任何问题。

I don't think I need to be coached by you." I couldn't have heard a better answer.

我认为我不需要接受你的指导。”我无法听到更好的答案。

That, to me, is the ultimate answer.

对我来说，这就是最终的答案。

And he is right.

他是对的。

He doesn't need me, doesn't need anyone.

他不需要我，也不需要任何人。

Lenny: I was going to ask if that's the goal of all of this writing down and systemizing is just to make yourself unnecessary.

莱尼：我想问的是，所有这些写下来和系统化的目的是否只是为了让自己变得不必要。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

Lenny: If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

Lenny：如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能连一席之地都得不到。

Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious, and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Enter Vanta.

输入万塔。

Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

Lenny: For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny：在有限的时间内，Lenny 的 Podcast 听众可以从 Vanta 获得 1,000 美元的折扣。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's vanta.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: That actually reminds me of another question a reader asked on Twitter who happened to be the one on only Ryan Hoover.

莱尼：这实际上让我想起了一位读者在 Twitter 上提出的另一个问题，而这个问题恰好是瑞安·胡佛 (Ryan Hoover) 唯一提出的。

He asked, "How has your approach changed in your coaching since you started?"

他问道：“自从你开始执教以来，你的执教方法有何变化？”

Matt Mochary: Ryan obviously started Product Hunt and then he sold the company to AngelList, so he was part of AngelList when I went there because I was coaching Naval.

Matt Mochary：Ryan 显然开始了 Product Hunt，然后他把公司卖给了 AngelList，所以当我去那里时，他是 AngelList 的一部分，因为我正在指导 Naval。

What we realized coaching Naval is that Naval did not want to be CEO and he just didn't know how to get out.

我们在指导纳瓦尔时意识到，纳瓦尔不想成为首席执行官，他只是不知道如何退出。

So, I said there's a way and I can show you, and so I did and made Naval's life 10 times better.

所以，我说有一种方法，我可以告诉你，所以我就这么做了，让 Naval 的生活变得更好了 10 倍。

Frankly, made AngelList 10 times better because Naval wasn't enjoying being CEO, therefore he wasn't good at it.

坦率地说，让 AngelList 变得更好了 10 倍，因为 Naval 不喜欢担任首席执行官，因此他不擅长。

We ended up putting someone in who did a fine job, then put someone else in who's doing an insanely good job.

我们最终安排了一个做得很好的人，然后又安排了一个做得非常好的人。

Now, of course, AngelList is massively valuable.

当然，现在 AngelList 非常有价值。

Matt Mochary: Ryan was there at the time, Ryan Hoover, great guy, I love Ryan.

马特·莫卡里：瑞安当时就在那里，瑞安·胡佛，很棒的人，我爱瑞安。

So, what has changed since then?

那么，从那以后发生了什么变化？

I think what's changed is I don't think back then I had any of this fear and anger give bad advice.

我认为改变的是我不认为当时我有任何这种恐惧和愤怒给出不好的建议。

I think back then it was all very tactical.

我认为当时这一切都是非常战术性的。

It was all very high up management type stuff, which is you need to have goals and at the company level, at the department level, at the individual level, you then need to track those goals.

这都是非常高层管理类型的东西，你需要有目标，在公司层面、部门层面、个人层面，然后你需要跟踪这些目标。

You need to track all the agreements that people make, all the actions they say they'll do.

您需要跟踪人们达成的所有协议以及他们所说的所有行动。

You have to put it all in Asana.

你必须把这一切都放在体式中。

Everyone has to be able to see each other's Asana board so they can see what each other is doing.

每个人都必须能够看到彼此的体式板，这样他们才能看到彼此在做什么。

I still do that, but now I've added on this piece of oh, you're in the moment and you're feeling fear?

我仍然这样做，但现在我添加了这一点，哦，你在当下，你感到恐惧吗？

Okay, you still got to go forward.

好吧，你还是得往前走。

That's sort of the big change.

这是一个很大的变化。

Lenny: I noticed that's at the top of the curriculum.

莱尼：我注意到这是课程的首要内容。

Do you find that's where a lot of the biggest transformations happen, that curriculum component?

您是否发现课程组成部分是许多最大转变发生的地方？

Matt Mochary: Absolutely.

马特·莫卡里：当然。

I cause people when they first start coaching, they have to read that first.

我让人们在第一次开始执教时，必须先阅读这些内容。

There's sort of three seminal documents: on time, top goal, and fear and anger give bad advice.

有三份影响深远的文件：准时、最高目标以及恐惧和愤怒给出了糟糕的建议。

On time just says, hey, we're going to start our meetings on time and you're going to show up and if you don't show up on time, you're going to let me know first.

准时只是说，嘿，我们要准时开始会议，你要准时出现，如果你没有准时出现，你要先告诉我。

That's just because I don't want to...

那只是因为我不想...

And by the way, I showed up two minutes late for us.

顺便说一下，我迟到了两分钟。

That's because I was on the Google Hangout for 10 minutes.

那是因为我在 Google Hangout 上呆了 10 分钟。

I didn't realize, I thought you were-

我没有意识到，我以为你是——

Lenny: I'm trying to fix that bug.

莱尼：我正在努力修复这个错误。

Every time we send an invite, there's a Google meet button there.

每次我们发送邀请时，都会有一个 Google meet 按钮。

I think I cracked it finally.

我想我终于破解了它。

Yeah, that would've been a funny podcast where I'm just sitting here starting on time and for two minutes.

是的，那将是一个有趣的播客，我只是坐在这里准时开始两分钟。

Hello, we're just waiting.

你好，我们只是在等待。

Matt Mochary: Exactly.

马特·莫卡里：没错。

Second one is top goal, which is this concept from McKeown, who wrote Essentialism, which is everyone is making requests of you, but if all you do is spend all day is responding to other people's requests, you never actually march towards your own priorities.

第二个是最高目标，这是麦基翁（McKeown）的概念，他写了《本质主义》（Essentialism），即每个人都在向你提出要求，但如果你整天都在回应别人的要求，那么你永远不会真正朝着自己的优先事项迈进。

You need to A, create priorities and then set aside some amount of time each day, 30 minutes, an hour, two hours that you just work on your own priority.

你需要 A，确定优先事项，然后每天留出一些时间，30 分钟、一小时、两小时，专门处理自己的优先事项。

If you do that, you'll make massive gains.

如果你这样做，你将获得巨大的收益。

And that's true.

确实如此。

I mean, in five minutes I can change someone's life just by having them follow that practice.

我的意思是，只要让某人遵循这种做法，我就可以在五分钟内改变他们的生活。

Then the third one is, if you're in anger, give that advice and that's what I have people read and say, "Does this resonate with you?" If it does, we can work together and if it doesn't, we shouldn't work together.

第三个是，如果你生气了，就给出建议，这就是我让人们读到的并说的，“这引起你的共鸣吗？”如果是的话，我们可以一起工作，如果不是，我们就不应该一起工作。

So yeah, that's kind of like the crux document of whether or not people philosophically are going to resonate with what I have to share.

所以，是的，这有点像人们在哲学上是否会与我分享的内容产生共鸣的关键文件。

Lenny: The top goal piece, I'm reading a book called Make Time right now and that's a big part of it.

莱尼：最重要的目标是，我现在正在读一本叫做《Make Time》的书，这是其中的一个重要部分。

I actually just added top goal to my calendar every day.

实际上，我每天都将最高目标添加到我的日历中。

It's not working yet.

还没有发挥作用。

Every time I get to it, I'm like no, I'm going to just check Twitter right now.

每次我谈到这个问题时，我都会想，不，我现在就去看看 Twitter。

But I'm working on it.

但我正在努力。

Matt Mochary: That is the hardest part.

马特·莫卡里：这是最难的部分。

Now, what I've done is I'm similar.

现在，我所做的就是我很相似。

During my top goal time, I have somebody sit with me and they prevent me from doing anything but my top goal.

在我实现最高目标的时候，有人坐在我旁边，他们阻止我做除了我的最高目标之外的任何事情。

Lenny: Wait, can you talk a bit more about that?

莱尼：等等，你能多谈谈这个吗？

Is this like a coworker?

这像同事吗？

Are you just like, "I need you here for this hour every day?"

你是否只是想，“我每天这个小时都需要你在这里？”

Matt Mochary: Yeah, I mean it's like the same idea as a trainer in a gym.

马特·莫卡里：是的，我的意思是这就像健身房里的教练一样。

A trainer in a gym, maybe they're teaching you a little bit, but more often than not they're just forcing you to do the thing that you know need to do.

健身房里的教练，也许他们会教你一点，但更多时候他们只是强迫你做你知道需要做的事情。

But if they weren't there, you would kind of go eh and not do it.

但如果他们不在那里，你就会不做。

That's all this is.

这就是全部。

It's what I call an accountability partner.

这就是我所说的责任伙伴。

Matt Mochary: There's even an app now where you can go online and you can sign up and I think it costs like $5 a month and you can sign up to meet someone else and you become accountability partners to each other.

马特·莫卡里：现在甚至有一个应用程序，你可以上网，你可以注册，我认为它的费用大约是每月 5 美元，你可以注册来与其他人见面，然后你们就成为彼此的责任伙伴。

It's insanely effective.

这非常有效。

I'm not the only one that has a problem focusing on tasks that I don't love that are necessary, but I don't love.

我并不是唯一一个无法专注于那些我不喜欢但又必要但我不喜欢的任务的人。

Like a meeting, I could take a meeting, I could take 20 meetings, I could take 10 hours of meetings, no problem.

就像开会一样，我可以参加一次会议，我可以参加 20 场会议，我可以参加 10 个小时的会议，没问题。

Especially when I'm the presenter, when I'm the active one.

尤其是当我是主持人、是主动者时。

But doing asynchronous tasks for me because so people-oriented that when there isn't another human with me, it's painful, so I just have another human with me.

但是为我做异步任务是因为以人为本，当没有另一个人在我身边时，这是很痛苦的，所以我只有另一个人在我身边。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

And that person is doing other work, I imagine they're not just watching you full-time.

那个人正在做其他工作，我想他们不仅仅是全职看着你。

Matt Mochary: No, they can do whatever they want.

马特·莫卡里：不，他们可以做任何他们想做的事。

Lenny: Is this what you recommend to leaders and CEOs?

莱尼：这是您向领导者和首席执行官推荐的吗？

Just have someone there for an hour.

只要有人在那里呆一个小时就可以了。

Wow.

哇。

Matt Mochary: If your personality is like mine, yes, have someone there.

马特·莫卡里：如果你的性格和我一样，是的，有人在那里。

It can be remote, it can be in person, it doesn't matter.

可以是远程的，可以是亲自的，都没关系。

In person's a little bit more effective.

面对面更有效一些。

Lenny: Right, there's like a little zoom window.

莱尼：对，有一个小缩放窗口。

Matt Mochary: I have my kids do it.

马特·莫卡里：我让我的孩子们这么做。

They love it.

他们喜欢它。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

There's an app I use called Centered, that app that I'm an investor in, but I use it all the time and they have this buddy feature actually where you can be paired with a buddy in real time.

我使用一个名为 Centered 的应用程序，我是该应用程序的投资者，但我一直使用它，他们有这个好友功能，实际上您可以与好友实时配对。

Lenny: To close a loop on the firing piece, something I was thinking about while you were talking is there's a lot of layoffs happening right now.

莱尼：为了结束这个循环，在你说话的时候我在想的是，现在正在发生很多裁员。

When you're letting go of like a thousand people, you can't really be their agent unless you've seen that happen.

当你要解雇大约一千人时，你不能真正成为他们的经纪人，除非你亲眼目睹了这种情况的发生。

Do you have any advice for just like there's a large layoff how you could do this?

就像大规模裁员一样，您对如何做到这一点有什么建议吗？

Matt Mochary: Absolutely you can be their agent, not you personally, but they each have a manager and the manager usually has 12 reports and they're rarely letting go more than 50% at a time.

Matt Mochary：当然你可以成为他们的经纪人，而不是你个人，但他们每个人都有一个经理，而经理通常有 12 份报告，而且他们很少一次放手超过 50%。

That means six people that they've got to be the agent of maximum.

这意味着他们必须成为最多的六个人的代理人。

Yes, each manager can be the agent for six people.

是的，每个经理可以代理六人。

My companies have done a lot of layoffs and here's why.

我的公司已经进行了大量裁员，原因如下。

Back in March of 2020, there was a chance that the world economy was imploding.

早在 2020 年 3 月，世界经济就有可能崩溃。

Now of course, by April and May we realized that wasn't the case, that the tech world kept going, in fact, it was even flourishing.

当然，到了四月和五月，我们意识到情况并非如此，科技世界仍在继续发展，事实上，它甚至正在蓬勃发展。

Matt Mochary: But in March of 2020, we didn't know that.

Matt Mochary：但在 2020 年 3 月，我们还不知道这一点。

And so you needed, if you were being fiscally responsible, you needed to prepare for that eventuality, so you needed pare costs.

因此，如果您要承担财政责任，您需要为这种可能性做好准备，因此您需要削减成本。

80% of costs in any tech company is payroll, is humans.

在任何科技公司中，80% 的成本都来自于工资，即人。

If you're going to pare costs, you actually have to let go of humans.

如果你要削减成本，你实际上必须放弃人类。

Almost every one of my companies did.

我的几乎每一家公司都这么做了。

Some on the low side of 5%, some on the high side.

有的偏低5%，有的偏高。

One company that is a hotel company let go of 40% because it looked like their business was about to get obliterated and the results were crazy.

一家酒店公司放弃了 40% 的股份，因为看起来他们的业务即将被消灭，结果太疯狂了。

Within 60 days of each layoff, the CEO reported back to me: It's insane.

每次裁员后 60 天内，首席执行官都会向我报告：这太疯狂了。

I don't know how this happened, but the company's now operating better.

我不知道这是怎么发生的，但公司现在运营得更好了。

I'm not talking on a relative scale, I'm talking on an absolute scale.

我说的不是相对规模，而是绝对规模​​。

We're putting out more features, more code.

我们正在推出更多功能、更多代码。

Our NPS is up, whatever it is, whatever department is performing better.

我们的 NPS 上升了，无论是什么，无论哪个部门都表现得更好。

The only answer for it was we've got less people, so this coordination issue is reduced.

唯一的答案是我们的人员减少了，因此协调问题就减少了。

Matt Mochary: Then now in May, June of this year, we had this huge reset of valuations where growth tech stocks dropped by 50 to 90% value and all of a sudden, which we're still in and we don't know how long this can last, it's all based on interest rates so it's likely that growth stocks will be at these valuations until interest rates come back down again, which could be two to three years.

马特·莫卡里：今年五月、六月，我们对估值进行了巨大的重置，成长型科技股的价值突然下跌了 50% 到 90%，我们仍然处于这种状态，我们不知道这种情况会持续多久，这一切都基于利率，所以成长型股票很可能会处于这些估值，直到利率再次下降，这可能是两到三年。

These companies now they can go raise money, but it's going to be at a big down round and down rounds are very painful.

这些公司现在可以去筹集资金，但这将是一次大的下跌融资，而且下跌融资是非常痛苦的。

So now these companies have to make sure that they don't need to raise money in the next three years.

所以现在这些公司必须确保他们在未来三年内不需要筹集资金。

They've got to conserve cash once again.

他们必须再次节省现金。

Matt Mochary: Here we are, we're in the land of layoffs again, but this time it's different.

马特·莫卡里：我们又陷入了裁员的境地，但这次有所不同。

This time these CEOs know that the company actually gets better.

这次，这些首席执行官知道公司实际上变得更好了。

And the CEOs that have never done this before, I simply connect them with the CEOs who have done this before and then they get convinced like, oh man, my company will be better.

对于以前从未这样做过的首席执行官，我只需将他们与以前这样做过的首席执行官联系起来，然后他们就会确信，天哪，我的公司会更好。

And now this time, people have been even more aggressive.

而这一次，人们更加咄咄逼人。

We've had companies that have laid off 50% of the company and the results have been frankly, phenomenal.

我们已经有一些公司解雇了 50% 的员工，坦率地说，结果是惊人的。

Matt Mochary: But the key to doing it well is there has to be a humane delivery.

马特·莫卡里：但做好这件事的关键是必须有人道的交付方式。

The biggest marker that I've seen between a botched layoff and a successful layoff is at the moment someone hears that they no longer have a job, did they hear it from their manager in a one-on-one?

我在失败的裁员和成功的裁员之间看到的最大标志是，当有人听说他们不再有工作时，他们是从他们的经理一对一中听到的吗？

If that's when they heard it, it'll be okay.

如果那时他们听到的话，那就没事了。

But if they heard it in an email, in a group chat, in any kind of thing where they were sitting next to or they're hearing it along with other people, it wasn't personalized, it wasn't one-on-one, that is terrible.

但如果他们在电子邮件中、在群聊中、在任何他们坐在旁边或与其他人一起听到的事情中听到它，那么它就不是个性化的，不是一对一的，那就太糟糕了。

That's when people get really angry and that's when they start going on Twitter and going to newspapers and et cetera because it feels dehumanizing.

那是人们真正生气的时候，他们开始上推特、看报纸等等，因为这感觉不人道。

It feels like you didn't give a shit about me.

感觉你根本不关心我。

You didn't even have the courtesy to tell me to my face.

你连当面告诉我的礼貌都没有。

Of course, there's no way to allow that person to express their emotions because they're in a group.

当然，没有办法让那个人表达自己的情绪，因为他们在一个群体中。

That's the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

Matt Mochary: The second thing is then later, so tactically, this is how it happens.

马特·莫卡里：第二件事是后来的事，所以从战术上来说，事情就是这样发生的。

You have an inner circle.

你有一个内在的圈子。

I think that inner circle should include all managers in the company and you say, this is how much we need to let go.

我认为核心圈子应该包括公司所有的管理者，你说，这就是我们需要放手的程度。

Here's how much each of you needs to let go.

这是你们每个人需要放手的程度。

First of all, you don't say to each department head or team leader, manager, tell me who you can let go because they'll all say nobody.

首先，你不要对每个部门负责人或者组长、经理说，告诉我你可以放掉谁，因为他们都会说没有人。

You actually have to give them numbers.

你实际上必须给他们数字。

You have to let this dollar amount go or this many people go, dollar amount is better because if you say people, then they'll just let go of the cheapest people, the most junior, and often the most junior are the ones that are actually doing the most work.

你必须放弃这一美元或这么多人，美元数额更好，因为如果你说人，那么他们就会放弃最便宜的人，最初级的人，而最初级的人往往是实际上做最多工作的人。

You want it to be dollars because that's actually really what you're trying to save.

你希望它是美元，因为这实际上是你想要节省的。

You're trying to save dollars.

你正试图节省美元。

Matt Mochary: So, you say you have to save this many dollars, come up with a number, they quickly come back with a number.

马特·莫卡里：所以，你说你必须节省这么多美元，想出一个数字，他们很快就会回来一个数字。

You don't want to have department heads choose for managers because if you have a team lead and all of a sudden they're told to let go these three people, the team lead will go, that was crazy.

你不想让部门主管选择经理，因为如果你有一个团队领导，突然他们被告知要解雇这三个人，团队领导就会离开，这太疯狂了。

Those are my three best people.

这是我最好的三个人。

So you want to let each manager choose and that doesn't need to take long.

所以你想让每个经理都做出选择，这不需要花很长时间。

That could take 48 hours.

这可能需要 48 小时。

Matt Mochary: Then you move to implementation.

Matt Mochary：然后你就开始实施。

At implementation, you spend the morning and have each manager reach out to people and just Slack them say, "Hey, can I talk to you for 15 minutes?" And then they have these meetings back-to-back-to-back or as close as they can and they deliver the news, the difficult conversation that we talked about before.

在实施过程中，你花了一个上午的时间让每位经理与员工联系，然后让他们说：“嘿，我可以和你聊 15 分钟吗？”然后他们连续或尽可能近距离地举行这些会议，并传达消息，即我们之前讨论过的艰难对话。

"It's going to be a difficult conversation.

“这将是一次艰难的谈话。

I'm letting you go.

我让你走。

I imagine this feels crappy or feels like worse than that.

我想这感觉很糟糕或者感觉比那更糟糕。

This is horrible.

这太可怕了。

If you're willing to share your feelings and I want to be your agent now.

如果你愿意分享你的感受，我现在想成为你的经纪人。

I don't have time to do it now, but I'd like to schedule with you another hour tomorrow, the next day whenever, so that we can go and dig in and I can help be your agent."

我现在没有时间，但我想明天再和你安排一个小时，后天什么时候都可以，这样我们就可以深入研究，我可以帮助你做经纪人。”

Matt Mochary: Then, that takes the morning.

马特·莫卡里：那么，这需要一上午的时间。

By the afternoon, you've scheduled an all hands for the stay team.

到了下午，你已经为留任团队安排了全体人员。

With the stay team, you'd tell them what had just occurred and you answer their questions.

对于留下的团队，你会告诉他们刚刚发生了什么，并回答他们的问题。

The questions are almost always around fear.

这些问题几乎总是围绕着恐惧。

Like, "Holy shit, is this going to happen to me?

就像，“天啊，这会发生在我身上吗？

Did these people even get feedback that they weren't performing?

这些人是否收到过他们表现不佳的反馈？

Does this mean that we're dying as a company and that we're going to implode?" You have to address each one of these questions and hopefully the answer is: no, to the first one, is this going to happen to me?

这是否意味着我们作为一家公司正在消亡并且即将崩溃？”你必须解决每一个问题，希望答案是：不，对于第一个问题，这会发生在我身上吗？

No, this isn't.

不，这不是。

We cut deep so that we only cut once.

我们切得很深，这样我们只切一次。

The people to your left and right and you, you are the state team.

你左右的人和你，你是国家队。

This is the team that we're going to building the company with going forward.

这就是我们将带领公司前进的团队。

It's important to be able to say that.

能够这么说很重要。

You actually want to cut deep because cutting two times or three times creates PTSD in an organization.

你实际上想要深入，因为两次或三次的削减会在组织中产生创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）。

It's trauma one, trauma two, trauma three.

这是创伤一，创伤二，创伤三。

Now they're like, ah, it's just going to keep happening.

现在他们想，啊，这种事还会继续发生。

Matt Mochary: Then, the third piece is, and this not everybody does, if you don't do this, your company within 60 days will be performing better.

马特·莫卡里：那么，第三件是，这不是每个人都这样做，如果你不这样做，你的公司在 60 天内会表现得更好。

If you do this, your company within two weeks will be performing better because people now, the stay team, they feel sadness, they feel anger, they feel fear.

如果你这样做，你的公司在两周内就会表现得更好，因为现在的人们，留下的团队，他们感到悲伤，他们感到愤怒，他们感到恐惧。

Yes, you addressed their questions in the all hands, but not fully because some people didn't even talk in the all hands.

是的，你在全体会议上回答了他们的问题，但没有完全回答，因为有些人甚至没有在全体会议上发言。

Matt Mochary: So, what you do is with each and every person on the stay team, you have a one-on-one with their manager for one hour and all the manager does is say, "I'd like to know your thoughts and feelings," and the person shares and then all the manager does is make them feel heard.

马特·莫卡里：所以，你所做的就是与留下团队中的每个人进行一对一的交谈，持续一个小时，经理所做的就是说，“我想知道你的想法和感受”，然后这个人分享，然后经理所做的就是让他们感到被倾听。

I think what you're telling me is you feel sad because your three buddies are now no longer here and you feel anger because you think this is bullshit and you think why did we hire this many people if we're going to fire them?

我想你告诉我的是，你感到悲伤，因为你的三个伙伴现在不再在这里，你感到愤怒，因为你认为这是胡说八道，你认为如果我们要解雇他们，为什么我们要雇用这么多人？

That was just irresponsible.

那只是不负责任的行为。

You feel fear because you're not sure if the company's going to implode or if your job is safe.

你感到恐惧，因为你不确定公司是否会崩溃，或者你的工作是否安全。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

And they're like, "Yes."

他们说：“是的。”

Matt Mochary: It doesn't take away the emotion entirely, but it knocks it down by a good 25%, which is enough that the person won't do something rash, they won't quit, they won't stop working, they won't say bad shit to other people, and it allows them to accelerates their recovery.

马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）：它并不能完全消除情绪，但它可以将情绪降低 25%，这足以让人们不会做出鲁莽的事情，他们不会放弃，他们不会停止工作，他们不会对别人说坏话，这可以让他们加速康复。

Within two weeks, they're now seeing how the company's operating better and morale then comes up and the company's now performing better than it was before.

两周之内，他们就看到公司的运营情况如何更好，士气也随之提高，公司现在的表现比以前更好。

So, three elements.

所以，三个要素。

Lenny: That was thousands of dollars of advice I think, in just five to 10 minutes.

莱尼：我认为在短短 5 到 10 分钟内就得到了价值数千美元的建议。

Matt Mochary: That's after having probably gone through this with CEOs maybe 40 times and iterating AB testing, and what's the difference, and what works well, and what didn't work well.

Matt Mochary：那是在与首席执行官们进行了大概 40 次并迭代 AB 测试之后，以及有什么区别，以及哪些效果很好，哪些效果不佳。

Yeah, I can't imagine there's somewhat out there who has advised more people through a layoff process, certainly in the tech world, than I have.

是的，我无法想象有人比我为更多的人提供了裁员建议，尤其是在科技界。

I'm not saying I'm proud of that, but it just is.

我并不是说我为此感到自豪，但事实确实如此。

Lenny: What a fun place to be.

莱尼：真是个有趣的地方啊。

As you were talking, I was thinking a little bit about Twitter and Elon and the experience that's going through right now.

当你说话时，我想到了一些关于 Twitter 和 Elon 以及现在正在经历的经历。

It feels like on the one hand, he's letting go of a lot of people, which matches kind of your advice.

一方面，感觉他放弃了很多人，这符合你的建议。

On the other hand, not being handled too well.

另一方面，处理得不太好。

I think it's emails and just a lot of random quick things.

我认为是电子邮件和很多随机的快速事情。

What's your perspective on this whole thing?

您对整件事有何看法？

Matt Mochary: I haven't been following it directly, so I don't know how he's implementing the layoffs or how much he's doing.

Matt Mochary：我没有直接关注，所以我不知道他是如何实施裁员的，也不知道他做了多少。

Frankly, just haven't been following it at all.

坦白说，只是根本没有关注过。

But here's the sad reality, even if it's handled incredibly poorly, the company ends up performing better.

但悲惨的现实是，即使处理得非常糟糕，公司最终也会表现得更好。

It just takes a little longer for people to recover, for the stay team to recover emotionally.

只是人们需要更长的时间才能恢复，留队的情绪也需要更长的时间才能恢复。

But the worst case scenario, it's handled terribly, within two months, the company will be performing better.

但最坏的情况，处理得很糟糕，两个月之内，公司会表现得更好。

Lenny: Fascinating.

莱尼：令人着迷。

That's actually a good segue to this last topic I wanted to touch on, which something that I think you have a lot of thoughts on is building new products within a larger company and innovating inside of a larger kind of scaled company, and especially the challenges around that.

这实际上是我想谈的最后一个主题的一个很好的延续，我认为你有很多想法，那就是在一家更大的公司内构建新产品，并在一家规模更大的公司内部进行创新，尤其是与之相关的挑战。

What are your thoughts on just how to do this well, how to innovate within a larger company?

对于如何做好这件事、如何在大公司内进行创新，您有何想法？

Matt Mochary: I can tell you the short version, but I'll tell you the long version.

马特·莫卡里：我可以告诉你简短的版本，但我会告诉你长的版本。

The long version is that this was a real problem for everyone I was coaching and I didn't know the answer.

长一点的说法是，这对我所执教的每个人来说都是一个真正的问题，但我不知道答案。

But it was obvious that YC startups were crushing and just iterating so much faster.

但很明显，YC 初创公司正在碾压对手，而且迭代速度更快。

And then I had the thought, well, why not just create your own YC startup and have it crush you but you own it?

然后我想到，好吧，为什么不创建自己的 YC 初创公司并让它压垮你，但你却拥有它呢？

It, of course, has to really look like a YC startup.

当然，它必须看起来真的像一家 YC 初创公司。

It has to have a founder mentality person as the head of the team, someone who's willing to just break glass and just won't stop until they run through the brick wall.

它必须有一个具有创始人心态的人作为团队的负责人，一个愿意打破玻璃并且在冲破砖墙之前不会停止的人。

It's actually pretty easy to find founder mentality folks.

事实上，找到具有创始人心态的人很容易。

You just literally go to the YC alumni list and the ones whose startups failed, perfect, they're available and they are founder types and now they want to join a company that's actually succeeding because they realize how hard it is to create something on their own, but they still have the mentality.

你只要去YC校友名单上看看，那些创业公司失败了的人，他们是完美的，他们是可用的，他们是创始人类型，现在他们想加入一家真正成功的公司，因为他们意识到自己创造一些东西是多么困难，但他们仍然有这种心态。

Matt Mochary: Then you want to keep the team really small because then they can, again, there's no buy-in required, like everyone's on the same page with the same information.

马特·莫卡里：然后你想让团队保持很小的规模，因为这样他们就可以再次不需要支持，就像每个人都在同一页面上并拥有相同的信息一样。

We started testing that and it worked, and then I thought, well wait a second.

我们开始测试它，它起作用了，然后我想，等一下。

The reason that a big company has a hard time innovating, it's because once a product is scaled, it's now got millions of users.

大公司之所以很难创新，是因为产品一旦规模化，现在就拥有了数百万用户。

So you have two things that you need to make sure stay true every day: the site is up and running and there's no security breach.

因此，您每天需要确保两件事保持真实：网站正常运行并且不存在安全漏洞。

Every time you add code, you've got to test it thoroughly to make sure it doesn't take down either one of those.

每次添加代码时，您都必须彻底测试它，以确保它不会删除其中任何一个。

The review process is insane.

审核过程很疯狂。

Matt Mochary: So now you're innovating, you're writing prototype code on new features.

Matt Mochary：所以现在你正在创新，你正在编写新功能的原型代码。

You can't get it approved it takes so long.

需要这么长时间，你无法获得批准。

That's what you're trying to decouple and you're trying to create an entity that isn't touching the core code, but you also don't want to have to go through the approval process of the product team or the head of product.

这就是您试图解耦的内容，您试图创建一个不触及核心代码的实体，但您也不希望必须经过产品团队或产品负责人的批准流程。

That takes way too long, as well.

这也需要太长的时间。

That's why it has to be a small team that reports to outside of EPD.

这就是为什么它必须是一个向环保署外部报告的小团队。

It can't report to the head of engineering, head of product, head of design, it can't.

它不能向工程主管、产品主管、设计主管汇报，不能。

It's got to go outside, usually directly to the CEO.

它必须向外传播，通常是直接向首席执行官提出。

That's the only other place to report that's outside.

这是外面唯一可以报告的地方。

Matt Mochary: Then I had this idea, well wait a second, there's also a brand question and so why don't you create an entirely new name for this product that isn't the core, the base business?

马特·莫卡里：然后我有了这个想法，等一下，还有一个品牌问题，所以你为什么不为这个不是核心、基础业务的产品创建一个全新的名称呢？

Why don't you actually just create its own C corp?

你为什么不直接创建自己的 C 型公司呢？

Why don't you make it so clear that this is its own entity?

你为什么不说得这么清楚，这是它自己的实体？

So I wrote this whole thing up and created its own C corp.

所以我把这整个事情写下来并创建了自己的 C corp。

I shared this with a few people and one CEO said to me, "Matt, this sounds radical and sounds like it could work, but is anyone actually doing this?" I thought to myself, oh shit, no, nobody's actually doing this.

我与几个人分享了这一点，一位首席执行官对我说：“马特，这听起来很激进，而且听起来似乎可行，但真的有人这样做吗？”我心想，哦，糟糕，不，实际上没有人这样做。

Nobody that I know has created new C Corps for the entities, the new products they're developing.

据我所知，没有人为实体以及他们正在开发的新产品创建新的 C Corps。

Matt Mochary: Then 30 days later, I got in a call with Wei Deng.

马特·莫卡里：30 天后，我接到了邓伟的电话。

I told you before, I'm a huge fan, and we talked about product and I shared with her this write up.

我之前告诉过你，我是一个超级粉丝，我们讨论了产品，我与她分享了这篇文章。

She's like, "Oh yeah, that's what I do." She said, "I created five C Corps in the last two months." I was like, "What?

她说：“哦，是的，这就是我所做的。”她说：“我在过去两个月里创建了五个 C 军团。”我当时想，“什么？

Someone's actually doing it." I was like, "Well, what are the results?" She's like, "They're fantastic." She goes, "The team doesn't worry about trying shit because they know that it doesn't hurt our core brand, and so they're iterating fast." And she said, "Not only do I do that, I actually have two teams, independent, working on each new product.

确实有人在这么做。”我当时想，“那么，结果是什么？”她说：“他们太棒了。”她说，“团队并不担心尝试一些糟糕的事情，因为他们知道这不会损害我们的核心品牌，所以他们迭代得很快。”她说：“我不仅这样做，而且实际上我有两个独立的团队，致力于每个新产品的开发。

One I have is more engineering focused, they build custom code.

我的一个更注重工程，他们构建自定义代码。

The other is more sort of customer relationship-focused and maybe they don't even have engineers and they build a manual solution or they use off the shelf products to build a solution, and just see which one makes more progress faster." Wow, insane.

另一种更注重客户关系，也许他们甚至没有工程师，他们构建手动解决方案，或者使用现成的产品来构建解决方案，然后看看哪一个进展更快。”哇，疯了。

That's why, again, I have so much respect for Wei.

这就是为什么我再次非常尊重魏。

Lenny: When I think about these ideas, I think of the NPE team at Facebook and I think it's called Area 21 at Google, which works on new ideas and I don't know if anything amazing has come out of those groups maybe, I don't know.

Lenny：当我想到这些想法时，我想到了 Facebook 的 NPE 团队，我认为它被称为 Google 的 Area 21，该团队致力于新想法，我不知道这些团队是否会产生任何令人惊奇的东西，我不知道。

But it feels like the missing piece, and you didn't mention this piece, is feeling like there's a huge upside if you get something.

但感觉就像缺少了一块，而你没有提到这块，感觉如果你得到一些东西就会有巨大的好处。

Like founders having equity of their company feels like such a motivator.

就像创始人拥有公司股权感觉就像是一种激励因素一样。

I could become a billionaire if this works out, versus I'm helping my startup in some small incremental way.

如果这成功的话，我可能会成为亿万富翁，而不是我以某种小的增量方式帮助我的初创公司。

Is that an important piece or do you think it's not critical?

这是一个重要的部分还是您认为它不重要？

Matt Mochary: I'm going to be radical here.

马特·莫卡里：我在这里要激进一些。

I don't think it matters at all.

我认为这根本不重要。

I think that what really motivates people is building shit that gets used in the world.

我认为真正激励人们的是创造出可以在世界上使用的东西。

I think people will say, and they'll fight for equity and money, but in the end, that's not what actually motivates them.

我认为人们会说，他们会为股权和金钱而战，但最终，这并不是真正激励他们的原因。

Because I've seen this work in companies where they don't have big equity, but they have autonomy, they have ownership, not equity ownership, ownership over decision making, ownership over creation.

因为我看到这种做法在那些没有大量股权的公司中发挥作用，但他们拥有自主权，他们拥有所有权，而不是股权所有权，对决策的所有权，对创造的所有权。

That's what I think people want.

我认为这就是人们想要的。

Amazon does this.

亚马逊就是这样做的。

They're not giving their people...

他们没有给他们的人民...

Amazon's famous for being cheap bastards, but someone has a great idea, okay, here's 5 million bucks, go do.

亚马逊以便宜而闻名，但有人有一个好主意，好吧，这里有 500 万美元，去做吧。

Amazon is definitely innovating successfully.

亚马逊的创新无疑是成功的。

Lenny: What about the flip side of that of not necessarily the huge upside, but the I'm staking everything on this startup, I need this to work, this is my thing, my name's on the line.

莱尼：反过来说，不一定是巨大的好处，但我把一切都押在这家初创公司上，我需要它发挥作用，这是我的事，我的名字就在这条线上。

I feel like that's a big motivator also for founders, like I'm not going to give up this feeling of grit.

我觉得这对创始人来说也是一个很大的动力，就像我不会放弃这种勇气的感觉。

Is that important?

这重要吗？

Matt Mochary: Yeah, it's also fear.

马特·莫卡里：是的，这也是恐惧。

It's fear, which is like if this doesn't work, I'm screwed.

这是恐惧，就好像如果这不起作用，我就完蛋了。

Fear, frankly, is an excellent motivator.

坦率地说，恐惧是一个很好的动力。

It gets people to move fast and move hard.

它让人们快速行动并努力行动。

The only problem with fear is it's also corrosive, so it eats out my insides as I go along.

恐惧的唯一问题是它也具有腐蚀性，所以当我继续前进时它会侵蚀我的内心。

It makes it that I don't enjoy life, but it's highly motivated.

这使得我不享受生活，但却充满动力。

Now, I think joy is actually even more motivating or they say it's as motivating, but it's noncorrosive, so I can last much longer if I'm doing something for joy.

现在，我认为快乐实际上更具激励性，或者他们说它同样具有激励性，但它没有腐蚀性，所以如果我做一些快乐的事情，我可以坚持更长时间。

Fear is short term, extreme motivation.

恐惧是短期的、极端的动机。

It's adrenaline.

这是肾上腺素。

Joy is long term, consistent motivation that also allows me to look back on my life and go, wow, that was a great life.

快乐是一种长期、持续的动力，它也让我在回顾自己的生活时会感叹，哇，那真是一个伟大的生活。

So yes, that is effective motivation, but I don't recommend putting oneself in that position to get motivated.

所以，是的，这是有效的激励，但我不建议将自己置于这样的位置来获得激励。

Lenny: For companies that want to try this method that you're describing, is there a curriculum document for this approach out there?

Lenny：对于想要尝试您所描述的这种方法的公司，是否有针对这种方法的课程文档？

Lenny: Okay, we'll link to that.

莱尼：好的，我们会链接到它。

Are there any other companies that are doing this well that come to mind?

还有其他公司在这方面做得很好吗？

You mentioned Amazon, Clipboard Health.

你提到了亚马逊、剪贴板健康。

Matt Mochary: In my portfolio, I know Scale and Attentive Mobile are both doing this well.

Matt Mochary：在我的投资组合中，我知道 Scale 和 Attentive Mobile 在这方面都做得很好。

More and more companies that I coach are starting to do this because I have more and more examples of it working well, so more and more companies are then copying.

我指导的越来越多的公司开始这样做，因为我有越来越多的成功案例，所以越来越多的公司开始效仿。

I don't have other names offhand that I can share though.

不过，我暂时没有其他名字可以分享。

Lenny: What was that first company?

莱尼：第一家公司是什么？

Scale?

规模？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Love that founder.

喜欢那个创始人。

Maybe a last question, something that I noted just in case we had a little more time is around energy audit.

也许最后一个问题是关于能源审计的，我注意到这一点以防我们有更多时间。

This is something that you advise folks to understand what gives them energy, what zaps their energy, can you talk a bit about that?

您建议人们了解什么给他们能量，什么消耗他们的能量，您能谈谈这一点吗？

Matt Mochary: Sure.

马特·莫卡里：当然。

It turns out that what we're really good at is what we love and what we love is often space and time disappear when we do it.

事实证明，我们真正擅长的就是我们所热爱的，而我们所热爱的往往是当我们去做的时候空间和时间就消失了。

Therefore, we actually probably don't even value it because it comes so easily to us that we don't ascribe value.

因此，我们实际上可能根本不重视它，因为它对我们来说太容易了，以至于我们不赋予它价值。

Whereas things that we don't love but we're good at, we often ascribe value there and other people want us to do those things because they're often creating value for the whole team or the family or the group.

虽然我们不喜欢但我们擅长的事情，我们经常赋予它们价值，而其他人希望我们做这些事情，因为它们通常为整个团队或家庭或团体创造价值。

Matt Mochary: There are four zones I posit and I learned this from Diana Chapman at Conscious Leadership Group.

马特·莫卡里：我提出了四个区域，这是我从意识领导小组的戴安娜·查普曼那里学到的。

I don't know where she learned it from, but almost everything that I have, I poached from somebody, but at least I tell you where I poached it from.

我不知道她从哪里学来的，但我拥有的几乎所有东西都是我从某人那里偷来的，但至少我告诉你我是从哪里偷来的。

The concept is you have four zones.

这个概念是你有四个区域。

Matt Mochary: Zone one is your incompetence, you're not good at it, someone's better at it than you.

马特·莫卡里：第一区是你的无能，你不擅长，有人比你更擅长。

That's like fixing a car.

这就像修车一样。

You should let someone else do that.

你应该让别人来做这件事。

Matt Mochary: Second is your zone of competence, you're fine, you can do it fine.

马特·莫卡里：第二是你的能力范围，你很好，你可以做得很好。

But so can somebody else do it fine.

但其他人也能做得很好。

Like cleaning your house.

就像打扫你的房子一样。

Yes, you could do it, but it would take a lot of time and you're not creating that much value.

是的，你可以做到，但这会花费很多时间，而且你无法创造那么多价值。

You should let someone else do that.

你应该让别人来做这件事。

Matt Mochary: Third zone, your zone of excellence.

马特·莫卡里：第三个区域，你的卓越区域。

This is something that you're uniquely good at, but you don't love it.

这是你独特擅长的事情，但你不喜欢它。

This is the danger zone.

这是危险区域。

This is likely what you're getting paid for and you're likely to getting paid a lot of money for it.

这很可能就是你得到报酬的原因，而且你可能会因此得到很多钱。

Other people want you to do it.

其他人希望你这样做。

You are creating value, but it's also sucking the life force out of you and it doesn't allow you to become amazing and create massive value.

你在创造价值，但它也在吸走你的生命力，它不允许你变得令人惊叹并创造巨大的价值。

Matt Mochary: Then there's your zone of genius.

马特·莫卡里：然后就是你的天才区。

This is the thing you do that's uniquely good in the world and you don't even notice that you're doing it because you love it so much.

这是你所做的世界上独一无二的好事，你甚至没有注意到你正在做这件事，因为你非常喜欢它。

The key is to go and look at your day.

关键是去看看你的一天。

How do you move into the zone of genius?

你如何进入天才区？

It's not that you figure out what it is and do more of that, it's that you figure out what it isn't and eliminate that and then naturally, you'll be drawn toward what it is that you love.

并不是你弄清楚它是什么并做更多的事情，而是你弄清楚它不是什么并消除它，然后自然地，你会被你所爱的东西所吸引。

Matt Mochary: What I do with the energy audit is you go through a calendar, two weeks of a calendar, a representative two weeks and you first look at all the meetings you have, but then you fill in there's time in between meetings.

马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）：我对能源审计的做法是，你浏览日历，日历的两周，代表两周，你首先查看你举行的所有会议，然后填写会议之间的时间。

What were you actually doing?

你实际上在做什么？

Take your best guess, write it in and then hour by hour, take a green marker and a red marker and each hour from Monday, 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM and the same thing each day for two weeks, each hour ask yourself at the end of that hour, did I have more energy or less energy?

拿出你最好的猜测，然后每小时写下来，拿一个绿色记号笔和一个红色记号笔，从星期一上午 8:00 到下午 6:00 的每个小时，连续两周每天做同样的事情，每小时结束时问自己，我的能量是更多还是更少？

Matt Mochary: If it's more energy, you mark it green.

马特·莫卡里：如果能量更多，你就把它标记为绿色。

If it's neutral or negative, you mark it red.

如果它是中性或负面的，则将其标记为红色。

Then, once you've done that for two weeks, you look at all the reds and say what's with the themes here?

然后，一旦你这样做了两周，你就会看着所有的红色并说这里的主题是什么？

Oh, one on ones with people who are no longer by direct reports, team meetings where nothing was prepared in advance and everything was verbal.

哦，与不再是直接下属的人进行一对一的会议，团队会议没有提前准备，一切都是口头的。

Recruiting meetings, interviews with people that we didn't end up hiring.

招聘会议，对我们最终没有聘用的人进行面试。

Informational interviews from people that wanted to meet me and just know me but provide no value to me.

来自那些想要见到我并且只是了解我但对我没有任何价值的人的信息采访。

These are all things that are energy draining.

这些都是消耗能量的事情。

Matt Mochary: Great.

马特·莫卡里：太棒了。

Now what you do is you go through each one of them and say, one, do I need to do this at all?

现在你要做的就是仔细检查每一项并说，第一，我需要这样做吗？

Does it need to be done?

有必要做吗？

If the answer is no, just cancel it.

如果答案是否定的，那就取消吧。

Two, it needs to be done, but someone else can do it.

第二，这件事需要做，但别人可以做。

Great, delegate it to them.

太好了，把它委托给他们吧。

Three, and this is the most common, it needs to be done and only I can do it.

三、这是最常见的，需要做，而且只有我能做。

Great, then the question is, what would make it exquisite?

太好了，那么问题来了，怎样才能让它变得精致呢？

Well, it's the exec team meeting.

嗯，这是执行团队会议。

I'm the CEO, I have to be in it.

我是首席执行官，我必须参与其中。

Well, what would make it exquisite?

那么，什么才能让它变得精致呢？

Matt Mochary: You know what would be exquisite?

马特·莫卡里：你知道什么是精致的吗？

It would be exquisite if everyone pre-prepared their update, which said how they're doing against their priorities, regular green, what they did last week, what they're going to do this week, and then they pre-route any problems they saw in the company and any proposed solution they had for those problems.

如果每个人都预先准备好他们的更新，说明他们如何根据自己的优先事项做事，常规绿色，他们上周做了什么，本周要做什么，然后他们预先安排他们在公司看到的任何问题以及他们针对这些问题提出的任何解决方案，那就太好了。

If everyone did that, then we could spend the first 15 minutes of the meeting just reading, processing the decisions and we could take a three hour meeting down to a 45 minute meeting.

如果每个人都这样做，那么我们可以在会议的前 15 分钟里阅读、处理决策，然后我们就可以将 3 小时的会议缩短为 45 分钟的会议。

Great, go write that up, share it with a group and say, hey gang, this is what would make this meaning exquisite for me.

太好了，把它写下来，与一群人分享，然后说，嘿，伙计们，这就是让这个意义对我来说变得精致的原因。

What do you guys think?

你们觉得怎么样？

Matt Mochary: Nine out of 10 times people look at it and go, yeah, that would be amazing because they're feeling the same way.

马特·莫卡里：十分之九的人看到它后都会说，是的，这太棒了，因为他们有同样的感觉。

Then you go with a new methodology and it turns out to be great.

然后你采用一种新的方法，结果证明它很棒。

That's how you take what you do each day from a lot of energy draining things into open space or energy raising things which will then allow you to start doing more and more of the things that you love.

这就是你如何将每天所做的事情从大量消耗能量的事情转移到开放空间或提升能量的事情中，然后让你开始做越来越多你喜欢的事情。

You keep doing this energy audit repeatedly, 1, 2, 3 times until your calendar is 80% green.

您不断重复执行此能源审核 1、2、3 次，直到您的日历达到 80% 的绿色。

Once that happens, magic will occur.

一旦发生这种情况，魔法就会发生。

All of a sudden, your life will become phenomenal and you will start to create massive value.

突然间，你的生活将变得非凡，你将开始创造巨大的价值。

I did it.

我做到了。

That's what happened to me.

这就是发生在我身上的事。

Lenny: I did that too actually, a simpler version where I just paid attention to what gave me energy and what didn't give me energy when I was on this journey post Airbnb and I thought I was wanted to start a company, I thought I wanted to do some advising and consulting and I realized none of that gives me energy, but writing interesting things that people like, that was fun.

Lenny：实际上我也这么做了，一个更简单的版本，我只是关注什么给了我能量，什么没有给我能量，当我在 Airbnb 之后的这段旅程中，我想我想创办一家公司，我想我想做一些建议和咨询，我意识到这些都不能给我能量，但写人们喜欢的有趣的东西，这很有趣。

So I just kind of doubled down on that path and had no idea was going to make any money and it ended up making money and that's what I do now.

所以我只是在这条路上加倍努力，不知道会赚钱，但最终还是赚钱了，这就是我现在所做的。

So yeah, two thumbs up for this method and it's a more sophisticated version, which I like.

所以，是的，我对这个方法竖起两个大拇指，它是一个更复杂的版本，我喜欢。

Matt Mochary: Right on.

马特·莫卡里：好的。

That's also trusting that there will be, if you need to monetize, eventually you will be able to monetize, but you got to start with doing the thing you love first.

这也意味着，如果你需要货币化，最终你将能够货币化，但你必须首先从做你喜欢的事情开始。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of people on Twitter and newsletters that are just doing it because they think this is something they will enjoy and other people are doing it.

是的，我觉得 Twitter 和时事通讯上有很多人这样做，因为他们认为这是他们会喜欢的事情，而且其他人也在这样做。

But I find that with this content life, you get on this treadmill where you have to continue producing things and if you don't actually enjoy it and it's not interesting to you, you end up just building this job for yourself that is no fun at all.

但我发现，在这种内容丰富的生活中，你踏上了跑步机，你必须继续生产东西，如果你实际上并不喜欢它，而且它对你来说并不有趣，那么你最终只会为自己打造一份毫无乐趣的工作。

Extra important if you're kind of going down this path.

如果您打算走这条路，这一点尤为重要。

Lenny: One quick question I had along these lines is you're talking about how you focus on yourself and your energy and what works for you or not.

莱尼：我有一个简单的问题是，你正在谈论你如何关注自己和你的能量，以及什么对你有用或无用。

And I was like, do these collide with other people on your team because they maybe get energy from something you don't?

我想，这些人是否会与你团队中的其他人发生冲突，因为他们可能从你没有的东西中获得能量？

But your point is that oftentimes, everyone's like, "Yes, this is good for me too.

但你的观点是，很多时候，每个人都会说，“是的，这对我也有好处。

We should do this because it's going to help everybody feel better."

我们应该这样做，因为这会帮助每个人感觉更好。”

Matt Mochary: That's exactly right.

马特·莫卡里：完全正确。

I remember one time we did this energy audit process, I did it with Henrique and Pedro from Brex and it was revolutionary for them.

我记得有一次我们进行了能源审计流程，我与来自 Brex 的 Henrique 和 Pedro 一起进行了这项工作，这对他们来说是革命性的。

It caused them to change how the two of them operated together.

这使他们改变了两人合作的方式。

They realized one really enjoyed the internal meetings and the other really enjoyed the external meetings, so well great, let's just do that.

他们意识到一个人非常喜欢内部会议，另一个人非常喜欢外部会议，太好了，我们就这样做吧。

It changed the trajectory of the company so much so that they said, "Matt, would you please come in and do this energy audit with all of our managers?" And we did.

它极大地改变了公司的发展轨迹，以至于他们说：“马特，你能进来和我们所有的经理一起进行能源审计吗？”我们做到了。

We did a big group thing and what they found was that process also changes the trajectory of the company because for everything that you don't enjoy but needs to get done, there's someone out there that loves to do it.

我们做了一个大的集体活动，他们发现这个过程也改变了公司的发展轨迹，因为对于你不喜欢但需要完成的所有事情，都有人喜欢做。

You just got to find out who it is, and that's what happened.

你只需要找出是谁，那就是发生的事情。

Lenny: I was just talking to my mom who's a CPA and I'm like, "Do you even enjoy this job you're doing?" She's like, "I love it.

莱尼：我刚刚和我的注册会计师妈妈说话，我问，“你喜欢你正在做的这份工作吗？”她就像是，“我喜欢它。

I love doing taxes.

我喜欢报税。

It's so interesting." I'm like, I'm so happy somebody out there enjoys this.

太有趣了。”我想，我很高兴有人喜欢这个。

I would pay anything for someone to take this off my plate.

我愿意付出任何代价让有人把这件事从我的盘子里拿下来。

You can charge me.

你可以向我收费。

Because my mom does my taxes.

因为我妈妈替我报税。

Lenny: Matt, any final thoughts you want to share before we wrap up?

莱尼：马特，在我们结束之前你还有什么想分享的吗？

Matt Mochary: This was fun.

马特·莫卡里：这很有趣。

Thanks, Lenny.

谢谢，莱尼。

I appreciate this.

我很欣赏这一点。

Lenny: Super fun.

莱尼：超级有趣。

I feel like a sign of a great conversation is it feels like we've been talking for maybe five minutes, but also a lifetime.

我觉得一次精彩对话的标志是感觉我们已经聊了也许五分钟，但也聊了一辈子。

Maybe we'll do this again.

也许我们会再做一次。

There's like a million other questions I'd love to get into, but until then, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more and how can listeners be useful to you?

我还想了解一百万个其他问题，但在那之前，如果人们想要接触并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Matt Mochary: Where can people find me?

马特·莫卡里：人们在哪里可以找到我？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Don't find me.

别找我。

I won't be able to respond.

我将无法回应。

I get too many inbounds and I can't respond to them.

我收到太多界外球，但无法回应。

In terms of people helpful to me, just read the content and use it and don't pay me to coach you.

对于对我有帮助的人来说，只需阅读内容并使用它，不要付钱给我来指导你。

Just do it on your own because you don't need to pay me to coach you.

你自己做吧，因为你不需要付钱给我来指导你。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

It's the first time someone's like, "Do not reach out.

这是第一次有人说：“别伸手。

I got it all for you online." We'll link to the show notes of the doc and everything.

我在网上给你准备好了一切。”我们将链接到文档的显示注释和所有内容。

Matt, thank you.

马特，谢谢你。

This was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Matt Mochary: Thank you, Lenny.

马特·莫卡里：谢谢你，莱尼。

This was great.

这太棒了。

Take care.

小心。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。