'"I deliberately understaff every project" | Leadership lessons from Rippling''s $16B journey'

Matt MacInnis: It is really important to me that we feel that we've deliberately understaffed every project at the company.

马特·麦金尼斯：对我来说非常重要的是，我们觉得公司的每个项目都故意人手不足。

If you overstaff, you get politics, you get people working on things that are further down the priority list than necessary.

如果你的人员过多，你就会陷入政治困境，你就会让人们从事那些比必要的优先事项更靠后的事情。

That is poison.

那是毒药。

It's wasteful.

这是浪费。

It slows you down.

它会让你放慢速度。

It creates cruft.

它造成了麻烦。

Lenny Rachitsky: You've been a long time COO at Rippling.

Lenny Rachitsky：您长期以来一直担任 Rippling 的首席运营官。

Recently, you moved into CPO, Chief Product Officer at Rippling.

最近，您晋升为 CPO，担任 Rippling 的首席产品官。

Something you talk a lot about is that extraordinary results require extraordinary efforts.

您经常谈论的是，非凡的成果需要非凡的努力。

Matt MacInnis: If you want to be in the 99th percentile in terms of outcomes, it's going to be really difficult.

马特·麦金尼斯：如果你想在结果方面处于第 99 个百分位，那将非常困难。

You got to sort of remind people that if they ever find themselves in the comfort zone at work, they are definitely making a mistake.

你必须提醒人们，如果他们发现自己在工作中处于舒适区，那么他们肯定是在犯错误。

It's supposed to be really fricking exhausting.

应该说真的很累很累。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're a big fan of escalating issues.

Lenny Rachitsky：您热衷于不断升级问题。

Matt MacInnis: Fundamentally, the most selfish thing you can do is withhold feedback from someone.

马特·麦金尼斯：从根本上来说，你能做的最自私的事情就是拒绝别人的反馈。

When you think a thought that would help someone improve and you avoid giving it to them because it would make you uncomfortable.

当你认为一个想法可以帮助某人进步时，你会避免将其提供给他们，因为这会让你感到不舒服。

Well, you're optimizing for your own comfort, and it's fundamentally selfish.

好吧，你正在为了自己的舒适而优化，这从根本上来说是自私的。

So many people have teams that are not functioning incredibly well.

很多人的团队运作得不太好。

Teams will always optimize for local comfort over company outcomes.

团队始终会根据公司成果优化本地舒适度。

The purest form of ambition and most intense source of energy in the business is the founder CEO.

企业中最纯粹的野心和最强烈的能量来源是创始人首席执行官。

Every next concentric circle of management beyond the founder CEO has the potential to be an order of magnitude drop off in intensity.

除了创始人首席执行官之外，下一个同心圆管理圈的强度都有可能下降一个数量级。

That is fucking dangerous.

那真是太危险了

Matt MacInnis: As an executive, as a leader, your job is to preserve that intensity at its highest possible level.

马特·麦金尼斯：作为一名高管、一名领导者，你的工作就是将这种强度保持在尽可能高的水平。

You've had a couple really interesting experiences with your own startup.

您在自己的创业过程中有过一些非常有趣的经历。

We talk in Silicon Valley about never quit, but that is complete absolute venture capital.

我们在硅谷谈论永不放弃，但那是完全绝对的风险投资。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Matt MacInnis, Chief Product Officer and formerly longtime Chief Operating Officer at Rippling.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是 Rippling 首席产品官兼前首席运营官 Matt MacInnis。

If you don't know much about Rippling, it's a massively successful business last valued at over $16 billion.

如果您对 Rippling 不太了解，它是一家非常成功的企业，最近估值超过 160 亿美元。

They have over 5,000 employees, and Matt has been instrumental to that success.

他们拥有 5,000 多名员工，Matt 为他们的成功做出了重要贡献。

He's also got a really rare combination of brutal honesty, a ton of experience building a very complex and very successful business, and being able to clearly articulate what he has learned really well.

他还拥有一种非常罕见的结合，即残酷的诚实、建立非常复杂且非常成功的企业的丰富经验，以及能够清楚地表达他所学到的东西。

Matt shared a lot of insights and advice that I've not heard anyone else on this podcast share, and I left this conversation feeling that every leader needs to hear his advice.

马特分享了很多我在这个播客上没有听到过的见解和建议，我在结束这次谈话时感觉每个领导者都需要听到他的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Albert Scrashim and Sunil Raman for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Albert Scrashim 和 Sunil Raman 为本次对话提出的主题和问题。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It helps tremendously.

它有很大帮助。

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 19 incredible products, an entire year of Lovable, Replit, Bolt, Gamma, Inata, Linear, Devin, PostHog, Superhuman, descript, Whisperful, Perplexity, warp, granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPARD, Mobbin, and Stripe Atlas.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 19 种令人难以置信的产品，一整年的 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、Gamma、Inata、Linear、Devin、PostHog、Super human、descript、Whisperful、Perplexity、warp、granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPARD、Mobbin 和 Stripe Atlas。

Head on over to Lenny'snewsletter.com and click product pass.

前往 Lenny'snewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。

With that, I bring you Matt MacInnis after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了马特·麦金尼斯 (Matt MacInnis)。

Amar: This podcast is sponsored by Google.

阿马尔：这个播客是由谷歌赞助的。

Hey folks, I'm Amar, product and design lead at Google DeepMind.

大家好，我是 Amar，Google DeepMind 的产品和设计主管。

Have you ever wanted to build an app for yourself, your friends, or finally launch that side project you've been dreaming about?

您是否曾想为自己、您的朋友构建一个应用程序，或者最终启动您一直梦想的副项目？

Now you can bring any idea to life, no coding background required with Gemini three in Google AI Studio.

现在，您可以使用 Google AI Studio 中的 Gemini 3 将任何想法变为现实，无需任何编码背景。

It's called vibe coding and we're making it dead simple.

这称为振动编码，我们正在使其变得非常简单。

Just describe your app and Gemini will wire up the right models for you so you can focus on your creative vision.

只需描述您的应用程序，Gemini 就会为您连接正确的模型，以便您可以专注于您的创意愿景。

Head to ai.studio/build to create your first app.

前往 ai.studio/build 创建您的第一个应用程序。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Datadog, now home to Eppo, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Datadog 为您带来，Datadog 现在是领先的实验和功能标记平台 Eppo 的所在地。

Product managers at the world's best companies use Datadog, the same platform their engineers rely on every day to connect product insights to product issues like bugs, UX friction, and business impact.

世界上最好的公司的产品经理使用 Datadog，他们的工程师每天都依赖这个平台将产品洞察与错误、用户体验摩擦和业务影响等产品问题联系起来。

It starts with product analytics where PMs can watch replays, review funnels, dive into retention and explore their growth metrics.

它从产品分析开始，产品经理可以观看重播、审查渠道、深入了解保留率并探索他们的增长指标。

Where other tools stop, Datadog goes even further.

在其他工具停止的地方，Datadog 走得更远。

It helps you actually diagnose the impact of funnel drop-offs and bugs and UX friction.

它可以帮助您实际诊断漏斗下降、错误以及用户体验摩擦的影响。

Once you know where to focus, experiments prove what works.

一旦你知道了重点在哪里，实验就会证明什么是有效的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw this firsthand when I was at Airbnb where our experimentation platform was critical for analyzing what worked and where things went wrong.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我亲眼目睹了这一点，我们的实验平台对于分析什么有效以及哪里出了问题至关重要。

And the same team that built experimentation at Airbnb built Eppo.

Eppo 是在 Airbnb 进行实验的同一个团队。

Datadog then lets you go beyond the numbers with session replay.

然后，Datadog 可以让您通过会话重播超越数字。

Watch exactly how users interact with heat maps and scroll maps to truly understand their behavior.

准确观察用户如何与热图和滚动图交互，以真正了解他们的行为。

And all of this is powered by feature flags that are tied to real-time data so that you can roll out safely, target precisely and learn continuously.

所有这一切都由与实时数据相关的功能标志提供支持，以便您可以安全地推出、精确定位并持续学习。

Datadog is more than engineering metrics.

Datadog 不仅仅是工程指标。

It's where great product teams learn faster, fix smarter, and ship with confidence.

在这里，优秀的产品团队可以更快地学习、更智能地修复并充满信心地交付。

Request a demo at datadoghq.com/lenny.

请访问 datadoghq.com/lenny 请求演示。

That's datadoghq.com/lenny.

那是 datadoghq.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

I want to start with something that I know is really important to you, something you talk a lot about that I don't think people hear enough on podcasts like this, which is that extraordinary results require extraordinary efforts.

我想从我知道对你来说非常重要的事情开始，你经常谈论的事情，我认为人们在这样的播客上听到的还不够，那就是非凡的结果需要非凡的努力。

Talk about why this is so important, what you think people need to hear.

谈谈为什么这如此重要，您认为人们需要听到什么。

Matt MacInnis: This is a term, that phrasing I actually attribute to a friend of mine, Dan Gill, who's the chief product officer at Carvana, which as a company also doesn't get enough credit for how much of a tech company it actually is.

马特·麦金尼斯：这个术语实际上是我的一个朋友丹·吉尔（Dan Gill）提出的，他是 Carvana 的首席产品官，作为一家公司，它实际上是一家科技公司，但也没有得到足够的认可。

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

And I think as a general framework for me, and a lot of what I say with you today is not really specific to product in any way.

我认为作为我的总体框架，我今天和你们说的很多内容并不是真正针对产品的。

We should actually talk about that.

我们实际上应该谈谈这个。

It's like the product function is an instantiation of the general concept of management.

就好像产品功能是一般管理概念的体现。

Being a chief product officer is not that different from being a chief whatever officer.

担任首席产品官与担任首席官并没有什么不同。

You have to apply the same frameworks and concepts to get people to achieve goals together.

您必须应用相同的框架和概念来让人们共同实现目标。

But one thing that is absolutely universal that I think we, honestly, I think we forget it in Silicon Valley or a lot of people don't sort of internalize it, is that if you want to accomplish something truly extraordinary, if you want to be in the 99th percentile in terms of outcomes, it's going to be really difficult.

但我认为绝对普遍的一件事是，老实说，我认为我们在硅谷忘记了这一点，或者很多人没有将其内在化，那就是，如果你想完成一些真正非凡的事情，如果你想在结果方面处于第 99%，那将非常困难。

Matt MacInnis: It's going to be really uncomfortable.

马特·麦金尼斯：这真的会很不舒服。

And you got to sort of remind people of that, that if they ever find themselves in the comfort zone at work, they are definitely making a mistake.

你必须提醒人们这一点，如果他们发现自己在工作中处于舒适区，他们肯定会犯错误。

They have definitely screwed up somehow.

他们肯定搞砸了。

It's not that an extraordinary effort is sufficient to an extraordinary outcome, but it is 100% true that it is necessary.

并不是说非凡的努力就足以取得非凡的成果，但百分百确实有必要。

And so I do use that framework as a sort of guiding principle in my own leadership.

因此，我确实使用该框架作为我自己领导力的指导原则。

Lenny Rachitsky: To make this even more real for people, what are examples of moments that were extraordinarily hard?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让人们更加真实，有哪些异常艰难时刻的例子？

Matt MacInnis: It is not about any sort of grand single story.

马特·麦金尼斯：这不是任何宏大的单一故事。

I think the story is actually told through a thousand little things.

我认为这个故事实际上是通过一千件小事来讲述的。

And so for me, the story is told through a thousand Jira tickets, not through a thousand grand events.

所以对我来说，这个故事是通过一千张 Jira 门票来讲述的，而不是通过一千场盛大的活动来讲述。

The extraordinary effort thing is a reminder that it's supposed to be really fricking exhausting.

非凡的努力提醒我们，这应该是非常令人疲惫的。

It's supposed to be.

应该是这样。

So on Friday night, when you get hit with an escalation on Friday night, when you get sort of hit with a bunch of new bugs from someone in the engineering team that you've got a triage, those are the moments where great players and great teams are separated from good players and good teams.

因此，在周五晚上，当你在周五晚上受到升级的打击时，当你受到工程团队中某个人提出的一堆新错误的打击时，你已经进行了分类，这些时候就是伟大的球员和伟大的团队与优秀的球员和优秀的团队分开的时刻。

And it's so easy to say this at a company like Rippling because we're winning.

在像 Rippling 这样的公司，这样说很容易，因为我们正在获胜。

As a company, for all of our foibles, and we should spend time today talking about where things are not perfect and not great, but the growth rate of the company on the revenue foundation that we have is extraordinary, really, really compelling.

作为一家公司，尽管我们有所​​有的缺点，但我们今天应该花时间讨论哪些事情不完美，也不太好，但公司在我们拥有的收入基础上的增长率是非凡的，真的非常引人注目。

Matt MacInnis: And it gives you, as a leader, the air cover to get up in front of your team and say, "Hey guys, I need the last ounce of oil that you've got left." And if your company's not growing very quickly, if things aren't that great, if your growth rate is 30% or 40%, it doesn't feel as good as a contributor in that business to lean in and give everything you've got on Friday or Saturday or Sunday because you don't know that it's going to yield much.

马特·麦金尼斯：作为领导者，它为你提供了空中掩护，可以站在你的团队面前说：“嘿伙计们，我需要你们剩下的最后一盎司石油。”如果你的公司发展不是很快，如果事情不是那么好，如果你的增长率是 30% 或 40%，作为该业务的贡献者，在周五、周六或周日投入你所拥有的一切感觉并不好，因为你不知道它会产生多少收益。

And so extraordinary results, outcomes demand extraordinary efforts, but if there's no chance at an extraordinary outcome, it's very hard to get the extraordinary effort.

所以非凡的结果、结果需要非凡的努力，但如果没有机会获得非凡的结果，就很难获得非凡的努力。

And so I like to remind people at Rippling at least that it's so rare to have the opportunity to be able to be a part of a team where the extraordinary effort that you do put in on Friday or whatever, whenever it is actually contributing to an extraordinary result.

因此，我想至少提醒 Rippling 的人们，能够有机会成为一个团队的一员，你在周五或其他时间付出的非凡努力，无论何时，只要它实际上促成了非凡的结果，这是非常难得的。

Matt MacInnis: It's a very special and rare thing, and it gives me a superpower as a leader because I can lean on that when I'm ringing the oil out of somebody who's in the bored and tired zone.

马特·麦金尼斯：这是一件非常特别和罕见的事情，它给了我作为领导者的超能力，因为当我为那些处于无聊和疲惫状态的人打气时，我可以依靠它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw the same thing actually at Airbnb with Brian Chesky.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和 Brian Chesky 在 Airbnb 也看到了同样的事情。

It always felt like things were going great and maybe we could take a break after something we shipped was killing it.

总感觉事情进展顺利，也许我们可以在我们发布的一些东西杀死它之后休息一下。

And it always felt like the opposite.

但总感觉恰恰相反。

It always felt like, how do we press the gas pedal further?

总感觉，我们如何进一步踩油门踏板？

How do we go faster?

我们怎样才能走得更快？

How do we go bigger?

我们如何做大？

There's never a moment to take a break.

没有一刻可以休息。

Matt MacInnis: I spent seven years at Apple and learned under Steve Jobs when he was the CEO, learned what we called the death march, which is what we did to the engineers.

马特·麦金尼斯：我在苹果工作了七年，在史蒂夫·乔布斯担任首席执行官时向他学习，学习了我们所说的死亡行军，这就是我们对工程师所做的事情。

It was like as soon as you shipped one version of the iPhone, you were just immediately thrown into the pit of building the next one and there was no break.

这就好像你一发布了 iPhone 的一个版本，你就立即被扔进了构建下一个版本的坑中，并且没有任何休息。

It was just relentless and talk about an extraordinary outcome at the end of the day.

这是无情的，并在一天结束时谈论非凡的结果。

There is no relief.

没有任何缓解。

In a competitive market, and if the market is valuable, it's competitive, no question.

在竞争市场中，如果市场有价值，那么毫无疑问它就是竞争的。

If you leave anything on the field, if you sort of leave a crack for your competitor, 100% chance they're going to go fill that crack.

如果你在球场上留下任何东西，如果你给你的竞争对手留下了一条裂缝，那么他们有 100% 的机会去填补这条裂缝。

And so you have to be relentless.

所以你必须坚持不懈。

There can be no relaxation of the organization.

组织上不能有丝毫松懈。

It doesn't mean people can't come and go or people can't take vacations or live their lives, of course.

当然，这并不意味着人们不能来来去去，或者人们不能度假或过自己的生活。

Matt MacInnis: And it's not like people are human beings.

马特·麦金尼斯：人并不是人类。

You can't grind the individuals down, but the team as a collective group of people has to be sort of on the ball all the time.

你不能压制个人，但团队作为一个集体必须始终保持警惕。

There can't be a break.

不能有休息。

And if you leave one, you're just begging for the slightly more hungry competitor to come in and eat your lunch.

如果你留下一个，你只是在乞求稍微饥饿的竞争对手进来吃你的午餐。

And that's the beauty of capitalism.

这就是资本主义的美妙之处。

Lenny Rachitsky: Also, very counterintuitively, and maybe the more optimistic perspective here is when you do give your team space to just twiddle their thumbs, bad things start to happen.

Lenny Rachitsky：另外，非常违反直觉，也许这里更乐观的观点是，当你确实给你的团队空间来摆弄他们的拇指时，糟糕的事情就会开始发生。

Morale actually dips in my experience.

根据我的经历，士气实际上下降了。

People get distracted.

人们会分心。

They're like, "Oh, what are we even doing?

他们就像，“哦，我们到底在做什么？

It's not interesting." I find that keeping people busy and motivated and fired up, even though you may think they'll be happier taking a many week break and slowing things down, I find they get more, the more I actually goes down in those moments.

这并不有趣。”我发现，让人们保持忙碌、积极性和热情，即使你可能认为他们会更高兴休息一周并放慢速度，但我发现他们得到的更多，而我实际上在那些时刻越沮丧。

Matt MacInnis: So here's a management framework that I use fairly often.

Matt MacInnis：这是我经常使用的管理框架。

As an executive, you don't know how to get any decision exactly right.

作为一名高管，您不知道如何做出完全正确的决定。

It's not knowable.

这是不可知的。

You don't know how much budget to allocate.

您不知道要分配多少预算。

You don't know how many people to put on a project.

你不知道一个项目需要多少人。

You don't know how to set a deadline for when you're going to ship something.

您不知道如何设定发货的最后期限。

But of course, you have to set some default so you make your best guess and then you manage to that best guess and you learn as you go because in software development and in business in general, everything's emergent.

但是，当然，您必须设置一些默认值，以便做出最佳猜测，然后您设法实现最佳猜测，并边做边学，因为在软件开发和一般业务中，一切都是新兴的。

These are not things that are knowable top down or a priority.

这些不是自上而下可知的事情，也不是优先事项。

And so you take a best guess and knowing that you're not going to get the right answer, you need to decide whether over-steering or under-steering relative to your perceived midpoint is better.

因此，您进行了最佳猜测，并且知道自己不会得到正确的答案，因此您需要决定相对于您感知的中点而言转向过度还是转向不足更好。

And so let's talk about staffing.

那么我们来谈谈人员配置。

When you staff a project, is it better to overstaff or is it better to under-staff knowing that you can't get it right?

当你为一个项目配备人员时，是人手过多更好还是因为知道自己无法做好而人手不足更好？

Well, it's better to under-staff.

嗯，人手不足比较好。

If you overstaff, you get everything that you just said.

如果你人太多了，你就会得到你刚才所说的一切。

You get politics, you get people working, I think most importantly on things that are further down the priority list than necessary.

你可以参与政治，让人们工作，我认为最重要的是那些比必要的优先事项列表更靠后的事情。

You have like 20 things on a stack rank list and you know that you got to do the top five, but the next 15 data's kind of ambiguous, but you've overstaffed the project.

您在堆栈排名列表上有大约 20 项内容，并且您知道必须执行前 5 项，但接下来的 15 项数据有点模糊，但您已经使该项目人满为患。

So the next 10 things down are getting worked on.

接下来的 10 件事正在处理中。

Before you even know if they're necessary, that is poison.

在你不知道它们是否必要之前，那就是毒药。

It's wasteful, it slows you down, it creates crust.

这是浪费，它会减慢你的速度，还会产生结皮。

And so it's very clear that under-staffing is less evil than over-staffing.

因此，很明显，人员不足比人员过多的危害要小。

In this particular framework, the advice is under-staff deliberately, always.

在这个特定的框架中，建议的人手总是故意不足的。

And then the wisdom, the wisdom element is to know not to under-under-staff and sort of knowing the difference between those two things.

然后是智慧，智慧要素是知道不要人手不足，并且知道这两件事之间的区别。

Matt MacInnis: And so that's the way we work at Rippling.

Matt MacInnis：这就是我们 Rippling 的工作方式。

Everyone is constantly asking for more resources and of course where we can afford to and where it's appropriate new resources arrive, but it is really important to me that we feel that we've deliberately understaffed every project at the company.

每个人都在不断地要求更多的资源，当然还有我们能负担得起的资源以及合适的新资源到达的地方，但对我来说非常重要的是，我们觉得我们故意在公司的每个项目中人手不足。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a previous guest, I forget who this was.

Lenny Rachitsky：之前有一位客人，我忘了是谁了。

They used this metaphor if they want their team to be dehydrated to always be wanting more water.

如果他们希望自己的团队脱水，总是需要更多的水，他们就会使用这个比喻。

And then eventually they're too dehydrated and okay, we needed someone to help.

最后他们脱水太严重了，好吧，我们需要有人来帮助。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Yeah.

是的。

There's a line along the lines of extraordinary efforts I want to make sure I read because I think this is really good.

有一条关于非凡努力的内容我想确保我读过，因为我认为这真的很好。

This may be a way to summarize what you're saying, that good teams get tired and that's when great teams kick the good team's asses.

这可能是总结你所说的话的一种方式，优秀的团队会感到疲倦，而这就是伟大的团队踢优秀团队的屁股的时候。

Matt MacInnis: Yes.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

This was a quote actually from Sunil, and he found it from a women's basketball team coach.

这实际上是苏尼尔的一句话，他是从一位女篮教练那里找到的。

And it is, to my point earlier about you got to run the engine at the red line at all times because the minute you let your guard down, the minute you slow down, the minute you relax, the minute you leave a crack for your competition, the great teams are going to come in and kick the good team's.

就我之前的观点而言，你必须始终在红线处运转引擎，因为当你放松警惕的那一刻，你放慢速度的那一刻，你放松的那一刻，你为你的竞争留下缝隙的那一刻，伟大的球队就会进来并踢掉优秀的球队。

And it's like sports, I'm not a very sporty guy, but sports analogies are sort of irresistible because at the end of the day, business is a game and none of this matters.

就像体育运动一样，我不是一个非常喜欢运动的人，但体育类比有点难以抗拒，因为归根结底，商业就是一场游戏，这些都不重要。

We're not going to carry it to the grave.

我们不会把它带进坟墓。

It's like you're here to do this stuff because it somehow fulfills you while you're on the planet.

就好像你来这里是为了做这些事情，因为当你在这个星球上时，它会以某种方式让你感到满足。

And I love the sport of business and I find that sports, notwithstanding the fact that I watched very little of it, that military, those are very ripe sources of parallel concepts to apply in leadership.

我喜欢商业运动，我发现体育运动（尽管我很少看）、军事运动，这些都是应用于领导力的平行概念的非常成熟的来源。

Lenny Rachitsky: I find also those most intense, stressful, long nights are the moments you remember most and remember most fondly back to when you're building something.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还发现，那些最紧张、压力最大、漫长的夜晚也是你在构建某些东西时最难忘、最怀念的时刻。

The key though is that it has to go well.

但关键是它必须进展顺利。

As you said, if you are succeeding and winning, all of this is romantic in the end and nostalgic.

正如你所说，如果你成功并获胜，所有这一切最终都是浪漫和怀旧的。

Remember that time we built this thing and worked late nights and shipped this thing?

还记得我们建造这个东西并工作到深夜并运送这个东西的时候吗？

If it doesn't go anywhere, you don't feel that.

如果它没有去任何地方，你就不会感觉到。

So I think that's a really important component of this is you need to be winning and succeeding.

所以我认为这是一个非常重要的组成部分，你需要获胜并取得成功。

Matt MacInnis: One thing that I've learned from Parker, Parker's our CEO at Rippling, he said, "You don't really learn from your mistakes, you learn from your successes." And it's like you do, of course, and he would admit you learn a bit from mistakes, but I do think that this is sort of feel good that it's like, "Well, you didn't succeed, but at least you learned something." I've had failures.

马特·麦金尼斯：我从帕克那里学到了一件事，帕克是我们 Rippling 的首席执行官，他说，“你并没有真正从错误中学习，而是从成功中学习。”当然，就像你所做的那样，他会承认你从错误中学到了一些东西，但我确实认为这种感觉很好，就像“好吧，你没有成功，但至少你学到了一些东西。”我也有过失败的经历。

When I look back at the nine years I spent working on inkling from day one in 2009 until we sold that business to a private equity firm in 2018, up the curve of Silicon Valley coolness, back down the other side into obscurity.

当我回顾从 2009 年第一天开始直到我们在 2018 年将该业务出售给一家私募股权公司为止的九年时间时，我沿着硅谷的冷静曲线上升，又回到了默默无闻的另一边。

Of course, I learned and grew a ton during that time, but in now what I think is six or seven years, I'm trying to do the math, seven years coming up on at Rippling, I've learned so much more because I've seen success.

当然，在那段时间里我学到了很多东西，也成长了很多，但现在我认为是六七年了，我正在努力做数学计算，在瑞波林即将过去的七年里，我学到了很多东西，因为我看到了成功。

Matt MacInnis: I've seen rapid, wild, crazy off the charts success of the business and it's more informative.

马特·麦金尼斯：我亲眼目睹了该行业快速、狂野、疯狂、超乎寻常的成功，而且信息量更大。

There's more to glean from seeing how it's done right than there is to glean from seeing how it's done wrong.

从如何做正确的事情中得到的信息比从如何做错的事情中得到的信息要多。

If I tell you you're going to get on an airplane and one maintenance technician has seen it done right a hundred times and the other maintenance technician has seen it done wrong a hundred times, but he learned from his mistakes, but still hasn't had any success himself.

如果我告诉你，你要登上一架飞机，一位维修技术人员已经看到它做对了一百次，另一位维修技术人员已经看到它做错了一百次，但他从错误中吸取了教训，但自己仍然没有取得任何成功。

I mean, give me a break.

我的意思是，让我休息一下。

There's not even a comparison which plane you're going to feel more comfortable on.

甚至没有比较哪架飞机会让您感觉更舒服。

And so I do think that learning from your mistakes thing is a bit of a feel good trope that actually has very little substance in reality.

所以我确实认为，从错误中吸取教训是一种让人感觉良好的比喻，但实际上在现实中几乎没有什么实质内容。

And it's why as an early career product manager, or it's why frankly at any stage of your career when you want to learn, you should join a winning team.

这就是为什么作为一名早期职业产品经理，或者坦率地说，这就是为什么在你职业生涯的任何阶段，当你想学习时，你应该加入一个获胜的团队。

Matt MacInnis: It's cool to go and start a company at 22.

Matt MacInnis：22 岁就去创办一家公司，这很酷。

Good luck to you.

祝你好运。

The odds are not in your favor, but the folks who, when I look at a resume and I see that someone's joined, they were at really good companies when those companies were super exciting and in crazy growth mode.

机会并不对你有利，但那些人，当我查看简历并发现有人加入时，他们在非常好的公司，而这些公司非常令人兴奋并且处于疯狂的增长模式。

I'm like, "I instantly want to interview that candidate because I want to hear what they learned from being part of a winning team." And that's sort of one of my go to heuristics when I'm looking at candidate profiles and I think it's an under-told trope.

我想，“我立即想采访那位候选人，因为我想听听他们从作为获胜团队的一员中学到了什么。”当我查看候选人资料时，这就是我的启发法之一，我认为这是一种鲜为人知的比喻。

Sorry, not an under-told trope.

抱歉，这不是一个不为人知的比喻。

It's a piece of advice that I don't think people embrace enough in the valley that success begets success and you should chase success.

我认为人们在硅谷并没有充分接受这样的建议：成功会带来成功，你应该追逐成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of success and learning, you've been a long time COO at Rippling and the reason you're here recently you moved into CPO, chief product officer at Rippling, which is very exciting and very rare.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到成功和学习，您在 Rippling 担任了很长时间的首席运营官，最近您来到这里担任 CPO，担任 Rippling 的首席产品官，这非常令人兴奋，也非常罕见。

I don't see a lot of COOs moving into product.

我没有看到很多首席运营官进入产品领域。

Let me ask you why did you move into that role?

让我问你为什么要担任这个角色？

I feel like you've been killing it at COO.

我觉得你在首席运营官那里一直在搞砸。

Maybe that's the reason.

也许这就是原因。

Be careful what you're good at.

小心你擅长的事情。

And also just what are some surprises about this, about moving into product?

关于进入产品领域，还有哪些令人惊讶的地方？

Because a lot of people imagine what it's like and then you're actually doing it.

因为很多人想象它是什么样子，然后你就真的在做。

Matt MacInnis: The story at Rippling is pretty interesting and I'll tell it because I think it explains why I'm making this transition, but this isn't really about me.

Matt MacInnis：Rippling 的故事非常有趣，我会讲述它，因为我认为它解释了我为什么要进行这种转变，但这并不是关于我的。

I think it's sort of a pattern that your listeners would find useful.

我认为这是一种对你的听众有用的模式。

In general, your best executives are the ones that you can mostly toss into any challenge and they will bring order to chaos.

一般来说，你最好的高管是那些你最能投入到任何挑战中的人，他们会给混乱带来秩序。

They will fix the thing.

他们会解决问题的。

And I do appreciate the terms that people have used at Rippling for me, talking about MacInnis's injured birds, where at any given moment some function is in disarray or in jeopardy and I go and focus very carefully on that function to get it back in order batting 800 maybe, like not always wild success, but I did that everywhere except R&D.

我确实很欣赏人们在 Rippling 为我使用的术语，谈论 MacInnis 受伤的小鸟，在任何特定时刻，某些功能处于混乱或危险之中，我会非常仔细地关注该功能，以便将其恢复到击球 800 的顺序，就像并不总是取得巨大成功一样，但除了研发之外，我在其他地方都这样做了。

I would think about helping out with components of the sales organization like our channel team, or I spent time building out the recruiting function a few times when it needed to be sort of rethought in response to our growth, but it never R&D.

我会考虑帮助销售组织的各个组成部分，比如我们的渠道团队，或者当需要重新考虑以适应我们的增长时，我花了几次时间建立招聘功能，但它从来没有研发。

Matt MacInnis: And so I would have my feet up on the table looking out across the floor at this dumpster fire off in the distance, just sort of emitting smoke and wondering if someone was going to go in and deal with that.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以我会把脚放在桌子上，看着地板上远处的垃圾箱着火，只是冒出烟雾，想知道是否有人会进去处理这个问题。

And the smoke takes various forms and when you're growing as quickly as rippling is growing, it's not always something that necessarily even impacts customers, but it's the sort of thing where you're like, that architecture's not right or they're not measuring adoption correctly." From the outside, I actually had quite a few criticisms that I could lob in.

烟雾有多种形式，当你的增长速度与涟漪的增长速度一样快时，它并不总是一定会影响客户，但它是一种你喜欢的东西，架构不正确，或者他们没有正确衡量采用率。”从外部来看，我实际上有很多批评，我可以提出。

And what happened at Rippling was we made some hiring mistakes.

在 Rippling 发生的事情是我们犯了一些招聘错误。

I think the folks that we had in those roles would agree that they weren't the right people.

我认为担任这些职位的人都会同意他们不是合适的人选。

We had a hiring mistake in engineering leadership where the product leader at the time had to sort of run engineering.

我们在工程领导方面犯了一个招聘错误，当时的产品负责人必须负责工程方面的工作。

Matt MacInnis: We subsequently had a mistake in product hiring and a lot of us had to sort of pitch in.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们随后在产品招聘方面犯了一个错误，我们中的很多人都不得不参与其中。

And Parker and I sort of stared at each other through two years of this kind of disarray or this chaos or this agony of things and just never really having good executive leadership over both engineering and product at the same time.

帕克和我在这种混乱、混乱或痛苦的两年里互相凝视着，却从未真正同时对工程和产品拥有良好的执行领导力。

And I remember Parker sort of slumped down in his seat and said, "Oh, I have to run another search." And I said, "No, the gig's up.

我记得帕克瘫倒在座位上说：“哦，我必须再进行一次搜索。”我说：“不，演出已经开始了。

I'm going to go do it." And he really sprung up in his seat.

我这就去做。”他真的从座位上跳了起来。

He's like, "Really?

他说：“真的吗？

You'll go do that?" I'm like, "Dude, this is what the business needs." And so that's what I did.

你会去这么做吗？”我说：“伙计，这就是企业所需要的。”这就是我所做的。

And that really started about a year ago in sort of, I realized I was going to do it and expressed that to Parker in December.

这实际上是从大约一年前开始的，我意识到我要这么做，并在十二月向帕克表达了这一点。

I really took it on in January of '25.

我真的在25年一月就接受了它。

Matt MacInnis: And so it's been 11 months of learning.

Matt MacInnis：我们已经学习了 11 个月了。

Jumping into the product role when the product function itself, although staffed with really talented people, wildly under understaffed, and without a single spiritual leader on top of it to drive consistency and process excellence had become locally optimized but globally incoherent.

当产品本身发挥作用时，尽管配备了真正有才华的人才，但人手严重不足，并且没有一个精神领袖来推动一致性和流程卓越性，因此在产品本身发挥作用时就跳入产品角色，已经变得局部优化但全局不连贯。

And if you know Conway's law, you are destined to ship your org chart.

如果您了解康威定律，您就注定会发布您的组织结构图。

And so with a locally optimized, globally incoherent team, you had a locally optimized, globally incoherent product experience that needed to be resolved.

因此，对于一个本地优化、全球不一致的团队来说，你需要解决本地优化、全球不一致的产品体验。

And so my efforts over the last 11 months have been to establish greater clarity in terms of how we do things around here, better process, better general leadership, hiring and firing.

因此，过去 11 个月我的努力就是更加明确我们如何做事、改进流程、改进总体领导、招聘和解雇。

I mean, just doing the sort of cleanup on aisle three that needed to be done, even though, again, a lot of the people in the team were quite talented and doing an excellent job of managing their specific domains.

我的意思是，只是对第三通道进行需要完成的清理工作，尽管团队中的许多人都非常有才华并且在管理其特定领域方面做得非常出色。

Matt MacInnis: Jumping into the product role has been quite eye-opening.

Matt MacInnis：跳入产品角色让人大开眼界。

I feel a little bashful about the naivety of my view from the outside a year ago.

我对一年前外界对我的看法的天真感到有点羞愧。

Product teams have a hierarchy of needs, and we like to point at the failures to meet elements of that hierarchy higher up the triangle and sort of impugn the failure of that organization for not, as an example, measuring adoption metrics very carefully and not closely tracking those metrics as a means by which to drive execution.

产品团队有一个需求层次结构，我们喜欢指出未能满足该层次结构中三角形更高层的元素，并指责该组织的失败，例如，没有非常仔细地衡量采用指标，也没有密切跟踪这些指标作为推动执行的手段。

When I jumped in, I was like, "Man, we need to establish some basic standards for test coverage.

当我介入时，我想，“伙计，我们需要为测试覆盖率建立一些基本标准。

We need to establish some basic standards for how we do what I call a factory inspection on a product once it's ready to roll off the assembly line." Do we have a checklist for what we call product quality and what does product quality mean?

我们需要制定一些基本标准，规定如何在产品准备好下线后对其进行工厂检查。”我们是否有一份关于产品质量的清单以及产品质量的含义是什么？

Those basic things weren't there.

那些基本的东西都不存在。

And so the idea that we should be spending time measuring adoption metrics is absolute insanity.

因此，我们应该花时间衡量采用指标的想法绝对是疯狂的。

Matt MacInnis: You're skipping a lot of steps between here and there.

Matt MacInnis：您在这里和那里之间跳过了很多步骤。

And so we have made great strides and I think it's translating to product quality improvements for our customers, but I feel, as I said, a little dumb for the way I was thinking about it before I jumped into the deep end.

因此，我们已经取得了长足的进步，我认为这正在转化为我们客户的产品质量改进，但正如我所说，我觉得在我跳入深渊之前我的思考方式有点愚蠢。

There is just no excuse as an executive for sitting outside of the mess and thinking you know the answers.

作为一名高管，没有理由袖手旁观并认为自己知道答案。

It's a cardinal sin as an executive to do that.

作为一名高管，这样做是犯下的大罪。

You need to go and see.

你需要去看看。

You'd be in the boiler room, you need to study the system, bottom up and develop hypotheses for how to amend the system.

你会在锅炉房里，你需要自下而上地研究系统，并提出如何修改系统的假设。

And that's what I've been doing.

这就是我一直在做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love hearing this because so many people have teams that are not functioning incredibly well and hearing from someone that is not a longtime product person come in and try to fix these problems, I think is really useful and interesting for people to hear.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢听到这个，因为很多人的团队运作得不太好，并且听到不是长期产品人员的人进来并尝试解决这些问题，我认为这对人们来说非常有用和有趣。

To dig into this a little bit more, was the big lesson and kind of eye-opening moment that there's a lot of foundational work that needs to happen to achieve this outcome that you're trying to achieve, which is measure engagement and adoption well?

更深入地探讨这一点，是不是一个重要的教训和令人大开眼界的时刻，需要进行大量的基础工作才能实现您想要实现的结果，即衡量参与度和采用率？

Is it like tracking and metrics and data science?

这就像跟踪、指标和数据科学吗？

Is that kind of the lesson there?

那里有这样的教训吗？

Matt MacInnis: The lesson is that everything must be done in its time and order, and you can move really, really quickly.

马特·麦金尼斯：教训是，一切都必须按照时间和顺序完成，而且你可以非常非常快地行动。

There's no sort of excuse not to move with urgency on all of these things, but you got to do them in order and you have to lead bottom up.

没有任何理由不紧急地处理所有这些事情，但你必须按顺序去做，并且必须自下而上地领导。

You got to lead from the specific circumstances you observe.

你必须根据你观察到的具体情况来领导。

And I think for me, one of the best things that's happened over the last 11 months is that I've gained a greater trust in my own instincts, that sort of patterns I've matched across other functions do indeed apply in product, but I have both the advantage and disadvantage of not having led a product function before and therefore must think about every problem from first principles.

我认为对我来说，过去 11 个月发生的最好的事情之一是我对自己的直觉有了更大的信任，我在其他职能部门中匹配的那种模式确实适用于产品，但我以前没有领导过产品职能，这既有优点也有缺点，因此必须从首要原则考虑每个问题。

I have no choice.

我别无选择。

I can read shit on the internet.

我可以在网上读到狗屎。

I can listen to clear thinkers on topics and import their ideas, but I'm very reluctant to import an idea without breaking it down into its constituent parts and figuring out how it applies at Rippling.

我可以聆听清晰的思想家对主题的看法并导入他们的想法，但我非常不愿意导入一个想法而不将其分解为各个组成部分并弄清楚它如何在 Ripplel 中应用。

Matt MacInnis: And so I don't actually give a shit about adoption metrics as a matter of principle.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以，从原则上讲，我实际上并不关心采用指标。

I care about adoption metrics when I care about adoption metrics.

当我关心采用指标时，我也关心采用指标。

I realize that that's a total logical statement, but it's like I'll get there.

我意识到这是一个完全合乎逻辑的陈述，但就像我会到达那里一样。

And so in certain parts of our product, I really do care about adoption metrics.

因此，在我们产品的某些部分，我确实关心采用指标。

I care a lot about adoption metrics in our applicant tracking system, our recruiting product, because it's in a really good place from a usability standpoint, it's very well instrumented, it's got very happy users, it's got an awesome growth profile, and so we should still ...

我非常关心我们的申请人跟踪系统和招聘产品中的采用指标，因为从可用性的角度来看，它处于一个非常好的位置，它的仪器非常好，它有非常满意的用户，它有一个很棒的增长概况，所以我们仍然应该......

Matt MacInnis: It's got an awesome growth profile.

马特·麦金尼斯：它的增长概况令人惊叹。

So we should be really focused on the adoption metrics because I think that's going to be an important ingredient to low churn over time, removing friction from the implementation process as an example.

因此，我们应该真正关注采用指标，因为我认为随着时间的推移，这将成为降低客户流失率的重要因素，例如消除实施过程中的摩擦。

Matt MacInnis: There are other parts of our product where I would say I don't care at all about adoption and am much more focused on foundational things like I said earlier, test coverage or whatever, just to make sure that the thing is stable and good and delivering exactly what it's supposed to deliver once it's adopted.

马特·麦金尼斯：在我们产品的其他部分，我想说我根本不关心采用情况，而是更关注像我之前所说的基础性事情，测试覆盖率或其他什么，只是为了确保产品稳定、良好，并在采用后准确地交付它应该交付的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Now that you're on the inside of the product team, what's something that you think people outside of product, say Matt two years ago or other, I don't know, go to market leads, other execs should hear, need to understand about product that they don't until they're on the inside?

Lenny Rachitsky：既然你是产品团队的内部人士，那么你认为产品之外的人（马特两年前或其他人说的）有什么事情是我不知道的，去寻找市场领导，其他高管应该听到，需要了解产品，而他们在进入内部之前才知道？

Matt MacInnis: I'll give you another framework that I like to use.

Matt MacInnis：我会给你另一个我喜欢使用的框架。

In the financial world, there's this concept of alpha.

在金融界，有阿尔法这个概念。

Alpha is outperformance relative to the index.

Alpha 的表现优于指数。

So that's why you have seekingalpha.com as a very popular website.

这就是为什么您将 Seekingalpha.com 作为一个非常受欢迎的网站。

What they mean by that is you're looking to buy something, some combination of assets that will outperform, let's say the S&P 500, if that's your benchmark.

他们的意思是，你想买一些东西，一些表现优于标准普尔500指数的资产组合，如果这是你的基准的话。

So alpha is the outperformance relative to the index.

所以阿尔法是相对于指数的表现。

Matt MacInnis: And then you have the concept of beta.

马特·麦金尼斯：然后你就有了贝塔的概念。

Beta is just volatility.

Beta只是波动率。

Beta's not good.

贝塔不好。

A high beta stock jerks around for no particular reason.

高贝塔值股票的波动没有特殊原因。

It's discorrelated with the index.

与指数不相关。

It's very high beta.

这是非常高的贝塔值。

Great if you're an options trader, but other than that, it's not really something you want in an asset.

如果您是期权交易者，那就太好了，但除此之外，这并不是您真正想要的资产。

Matt MacInnis: So your ideal stock is a very high alpha, very low beta stock.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以你的理想股票是阿尔法值非常高、贝塔值非常低的股票。

They don't really come in that shape because alpha and beta tend to be correlated, but that's what you want when you buy a financial asset.

它们实际上并不是这样的，因为阿尔法和贝塔往往是相关的，但这正是您购买金融资产时想要的。

Matt MacInnis: So what's the analogy?

马特·麦金尼斯：那么类比是什么呢？

I think you have high alpha people who are very valuable.

我认为你拥有非常有价值的高阿尔法人才。

I think you also have low beta people who are also very valuable people.

我认为你们也有低贝塔值的人，但他们也是非常有价值的人。

Dennis Rodman, basketball player, nut job, very high alpha.

丹尼斯·罗德曼，篮球运动员，疯狂，阿尔法非常高。

And there's room on every team for one Dennis Rodman is a favorite of mine.

每支球队都有一个位置，丹尼斯·罗德曼是我的最爱。

It's like you can have one difficult employee who's got a ton of upside.

就好像你可以拥有一位很难相处的员工，但他却有很大的上升空间。

Matt MacInnis: So this alpha beta thing, I use it pretty often when contemplating what kind of person I want and also what kind of process I want.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以，当我考虑我想要什么样的人以及我想要什么样的过程时，我经常使用它。

So when you're building a product from zero to one, you're probably pursuing alpha.

因此，当您从零到一构建产品时，您可能正在追求阿尔法。

You're looking for some angle on this market or this customer problem where the product is actually going to provide an outsized return relative to whatever the default solution is.

您正在寻找这个市场或这个客户问题的某个角度，其中该产品实际上将相对于默认解决方案提供巨大的回报。

When you have a more mature product or if you have somebody in the product operations group or whatever, you probably want a more low beta environment where it's like it cranks it out, it does it very reliably.

当你有一个更成熟的产品，或者如果你有产品运营团队或其他人员，你可能需要一个更低的测试环境，就像它能非常可靠地完成它一样。

Matt MacInnis: Our payroll product, we badly want the payroll product to be very low beta.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们的薪资产品，我们非常希望薪资产品的贝塔值非常低。

We really don't want the payroll product to have any unpredictability or aberration, and so we're willing to accept more process.

我们确实不希望薪资产品有任何不可预测性或偏差，因此我们愿意接受更多流程。

Matt MacInnis: And here's a fundamental principle of design in an organization, which is that processes, processes in a business exist for the sole purpose of lowering beta.

马特·麦金尼斯：这是一个组织设计的基本原则，即企业中的流程、流程的存在的唯一目的是降低贝塔值。

Processes are for decreasing volatility in the output of the system.

流程用于减少系统输出的波动性。

The downside of a process is that it suppresses alpha.

流程的缺点是它会抑制 alpha。

And you have to be super, super careful and judicious in the application of process and the product team to know that you're lowering beta in the places where you want to do that without suppressing alpha in the places where you need it.

在流程和产品团队的应用中，你必须非常非常小心和明智，才能知道你在你想要的地方降低了贝塔值，而不在你需要的地方抑制了阿尔法值。

Matt MacInnis: So as we've gone through the last year of reforming the way that we build product at Rippling, it's been a game of recognizing those places where I need to implement a touch of process, just a touch.

马特·麦金尼斯：去年我们在 Rippling 改革了我们构建产品的方式，这是一场认识到我需要实施一些流程的地方的游戏，只是一点点。

Other places where I need to implement a very clear, rigid process where I don't want alpha, I just want low beta.

在其他地方，我需要实施一个非常清晰、严格的流程，我不需要阿尔法，我只想要低贝塔。

So examples of this are let's say our product quality list, which we lovingly at Rippling call the PQL.

因此，我们的产品质量列表就是这样的例子，我们在 Rippling 亲切地将其称为 PQL。

Matt MacInnis: Yeah, so it's actually a really important thing.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的，这实际上是一件非常重要的事情。

I think if you want to bring about cultural change in a team ...

我认为如果你想在团队中带来文化变革......

Look, we have 1,300 people in our R&D organization.

看，我们的研发组织有 1,300 人。

It's a big ship that we have to steer.

这是一艘我们必须驾驶的大船。

If you want to create a moment that sticks in people's brains and sort of becomes a zeitgeist or something that they latch onto, you got to create an entity, a vessel for meaning, and then you got to fill that vessel with your meaning.

如果你想创造一个留在人们大脑中的时刻，成为一种时代精神或他们所抓住的东西，你就必须创造一个实体，一个意义的容器，然后你必须用你的意义填充那个容器。

Matt MacInnis: Yeah, well, sure, a meme.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的，当然，一个模因。

A meme is actually a good example of this in common culture.

模因实际上是常见文化中的一个很好的例子。

In pop culture.

在流行文化中。

I think it's why, when people come to the table with ideas from the outside, I welcome those outside ideas.

我想这就是为什么当人们带着外部想法来到谈判桌时，我欢迎这些外部想法。

But the first thing I ask the person to do is to tell me what they mean without using those words.

但我要求对方做的第一件事就是告诉我他们的意思，但不要使用这些词。

So when someone comes in and says, "Hey, I want to do this thing on strategy." I'm like, "Cool.

因此，当有人进来说：“嘿，我想根据策略来做这件事。”我想，“酷。

Tell me what you mean without using the word strategy." And it forces them to break it down into its constituent parts.

告诉我你的意思，不要使用策略这个词。”它迫使他们将其分解成其组成部分。

And if they can articulate it clearly without using that word, I know that they know what they're talking about.

如果他们能够在不使用这个词的情况下清楚地表达出来，我就知道他们知道自己在说什么。

And if they just fumble around with the word strategy again, I'm like, "Okay, you actually haven't thought this through."

如果他们再次摸索“战略”这个词，我会说，“好吧，你实际上还没有想清楚这一点。”

Matt MacInnis: So with the PQL, with the product quality list, it's like I could come up with some generic term for this, but I really want a new joiner at the company to understand that this is an idiosyncratic thing to Rippling.

Matt MacInnis：因此，有了 PQL，有了产品质量列表，我就可以为此想出一些通用术语，但我真的希望公司的新加入者能够理解，这对于 Rippleing 来说是一件特殊的事情。

This is unique to us.

这对我们来说是独一无二的。

You want to understand this thing.

你想了解这个事情。

I also want it to become a component of common parlance in the day-to-day work of the product management and engineering teams.

我还希望它成为产品管理和工程团队日常工作中的常用语的一部分。

So PQL, as cheeky or silly as it sounds, was deliberately sort of angular or stood out as a vessel I could fill with a particular meaning, and so we have a product quality list.

因此，PQL，尽管听起来厚颜无耻或愚蠢，但故意是有棱角的或突出的，作为一个我可以填充特定含义的容器，所以我们有一个产品质量清单。

Matt MacInnis: And the product quality list is lightweight in the sense that it just articulates in the simplest ways the standards we want you to meet when you ship a product.

Matt MacInnis：产品质量清单是轻量级的，因为它只是以最简单的方式阐明了我们希望您在发货时达到的标准。

It doesn't apply to every product, not every line applies to every product, but it's comprehensive and it provides me with a framework for iterating over time as we learn.

它并不适用于每一个产品，不是每条生产线都适用于每一个产品，但它是全面的，它为我提供了一个随着时间的推移进行迭代的框架。

Matt MacInnis: So just yesterday, we shipped the product to Parker.

马特·麦金尼斯：就在昨天，我们将产品运送给帕克。

This is part of our process.

这是我们流程的一部分。

When we ship a new product, it goes to Parker, who is the big admin for Rippling at Rippling.

当我们发布新产品时，它会交给 Parker，他是 Rippling 的 Rippling 高级管理员。

If you're not aware, Parker is the sole payroll administrator for Rippling for all 5,200 employees.

如果您不知道，Parker 是 Rippling 全部 5,200 名员工的唯一薪资管理员。

He personally runs payroll always, there is no exception, for all 5,200 people.

他总是亲自管理 5,200 名员工的工资，无一例外。

He does complain about it sometimes, but it's a remarkable achievement for the software and perhaps for him.

有时他确实会抱怨这一点，但这对软件来说是一项了不起的成就，也许对他来说也是如此。

So he also installs any new app that we're going to install for ourselves because we dog food the hell out of everything we build.

因此，他还安装了我们要为自己安装的任何新应用程序，因为我们从我们构建的所有内容中汲取了教训。

Matt MacInnis: Yesterday, he goes to install this new application.

马特·麦金尼斯：昨天，他去安装这个新应用程序。

We're about to ship a new app for feedback, allowing people to give one another feedback on their companies.

我们即将发布一款新的反馈应用程序，允许人们互相提供有关其公司的反馈。

And he installs it and he goes in and it dumps them onto an empty screen.

他安装了它，然后进去，它把它们转储到一个空屏幕上。

And he's like, "What the fuck is this?

他就像是，“这他妈是什么？

What is this?

这是什么？

What's going on?

发生什么事了？

Hey, wow, talk about fail." So I chop another one of my fingers off, I'm down to nine.

嘿，哇，谈论失败。”于是我又砍掉了一根手指，只剩下九根手指了。

And I'm like, "Well, what did we miss?"

我想，“好吧，我们错过了什么？”

Matt MacInnis: What we missed was there was a fucking feature flag, a fucking feature flag.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们错过的是一个该死的功能标志，一个该死的功能标志。

And I'm not allowed to say feature flag without fucking in front of it because feature flags are the bane of my existence and the worst things in the world that constantly cause problems.

而且我不可以在没有他妈的前面的情况下说功能标志，因为功能标志是我存在的祸根，也是世界上最糟糕的事情，不断引起问题。

Engineers put one in temporarily and forget about it.

工程师们暂时安装了一个，然后就忘记了它。

It's like shims if you're building a house and the general contractor puts little shims in places and then forgets that they put the shims there and then builds a wall over them and eventually the shim fails and all of a sudden your door doesn't fit.

这就像垫片，如果你正在建造一座房子，总承包商在一些地方放了一些小垫片，然后忘记了他们把垫片放在那里，然后在它们上面建了一堵墙，最终垫片失效了，突然间你的门就关不上了。

Feature flags are super dangerous and need to be managed carefully, so fucking feature flags.

功能标志非常危险，需要小心管理，所以该死的功能标志。

Matt MacInnis: Anyway, we had one.

马特·麦金尼斯：无论如何，我们有一个。

Parker installs it, they forgot to disable the feature flag.

帕克安装了它，他们忘记禁用功能标志。

He gets a blank screen when he installs the application.

当他安装该应用程序时，他看到一个空白屏幕。

What did I do?

我做了什么？

My reaction was, "Ugh." Go back to the team, give them direct feedback, tell them not to make that mistake again.

我的反应是“呃”。回到团队，给他们直接反馈，告诉他们不要再犯同样的错误。

But also ask the question, "How do we miss this in the factory inspection process?"

但也要问一个问题，“我们在验厂过程中怎么会漏掉这一点呢？”

Matt MacInnis: And the answer is we didn't have any line item in the PQL for feature flags.

Matt MacInnis：答案是我们在 PQL 中没有任何用于功能标记的行项目。

So I added a line to the fucking PQL that said, "You are allowed to have one feature flag that governs your entire product at ship." It's an extreme standard that might not be achievable, but it's the standard we aspire to.

所以我在该死的 PQL 中添加了一行内容：“您可以拥有一个功能标志来管理您的整个产品。”这是一个可能无法实现的极端标准，但这是我们渴望的标准。

Matt MacInnis: This framework, the PQL, given these lightweight checklists, iterated on consistently in response to everything we learn as we go, constitutes a very nice lightweight way to lower the beta of the system with hopefully only a modicum of negative impact on the alpha for how we build product.

Matt MacInnis：这个框架，PQL，考虑到这些轻量级检查表，不断迭代以响应我们所学到的一切，构成了一种非常好的轻量级方法来降低系统的 Beta 版，希望对我们如何构建产品的 alpha 版产生一点负面影响。

Matt MacInnis: You asked me a very simple question, I gave you a very long-winded answer, but these frameworks help me design systems that scale across one going to 2,000 technical workers.

Matt MacInnis：你问了我一个非常简单的问题，我给了你一个非常冗长的答案，但这些框架帮助我设计了可扩展到 1 到 2,000 名技术人员的系统。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay.

好的。

By the way, PQL, is that like an acronym or it's just like, I like this word we're going to call it PQL?

顺便说一句，PQL，是一个缩写词还是就像，我喜欢这个词，我们将称之为 PQL？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我明白了。

So it's the .

所以这是 .

Okay.

好的。

Matt MacInnis: PQL, which how could you pronounce it other than pickle?

马特·麦金尼斯：PQL，除了 pickle 之外你还能怎么发音？

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm imagining all your decks have little PQL emojis and the-

Lenny Rachitsky：我想象你所有的套牌上都有 PQL 表情符号，而且——

Matt MacInnis: The pickle emoji thing, the dancing pickle in Slack, there's a lot of-

Matt MacInnis：泡菜表情符号，Slack 中跳舞的泡菜，还有很多——

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

It lends itself to a bit of fun.

它本身带来了一些乐趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I think about is pickle Rick.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想到的是泡菜瑞克。

Do you get that reference?

你得到那个参考吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So this high alpha, low beta, I love this concept.

因此，高阿尔法、低贝塔，我喜欢这个概念。

So the idea is depending on the team, depending on the problem, we need a high alpha, low beta person or actually okay with a lot of variants for this specific project that's actually -

所以这个想法取决于团队，取决于问题，我们需要一个高 alpha、低 beta 的人，或者实际上可以接受这个特定项目的很多变体，实际上 -

Matt MacInnis: Yeah, we're willing to accept a bunch of volatility in this area in exchange for the upside we get from the creativity and risk taking of these people or the lack of process that sort of gives them the latitude to do what they want to do.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的，我们愿意接受这一领域的一系列波动，以换取我们从这些人的创造力和风险承担中获得的好处，或者缺乏流程，这给了他们做他们想做的事情的自由。

Lenny Rachitsky: So when you're hiring, you're looking for, again, is this person low beta or not?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以当你招聘时，你会再次寻找这个人的贝塔值是否较低？

That's going to -

那将会——

Matt MacInnis: For sure.

马特·麦金尼斯：当然。

It's really quite a useful way.

这确实是一个非常有用的方法。

You know when you meet a candidate and you ...

你知道当你遇到候选人时你...

My modus operandi, and I think with talk about hiring for a second, I think I've spent a lot of time with teams at Rippling talking about how I hire.

我的做法，我想在谈论招聘的时候，我想我已经花了很多时间与 Rippling 的团队讨论我如何招聘。

And it is born of batting practice.

它是从击球练习中诞生的。

It'd be super interesting to actually be able to rewind the tape on my life and sort of contemplate how many candidates I've met in every context.

如果能够倒带我的生活并思考我在每种情况下遇到了多少候选人，那将是非常有趣的。

Many thousands, maybe tens of thousands, I don't know.

几千，也许几万，我不知道。

It's a lot of batting practice and a lot of model training in my brain.

这是我大脑中大量的击球练习和模型训练。

Matt MacInnis: So I rely a lot of my intuition, which of course HR people say you're not supposed to do.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以我很大程度上依赖于我的直觉，当然人力资源人员说你不应该这样做。

That's complete bullshit.

这完全是胡说八道。

If you have a good intuition, you should absolutely rely on your intuition.

如果你有很好的直觉，那么你绝对应该依赖你的直觉。

Matt MacInnis: And what you have to do after you have a reaction to a candidate when you're looking at hiring somebody is you need to decode your intuition so that it can be expressed to other people productively.

马特·麦金尼斯：当你考虑雇用某人时，当你对候选人做出反应后，你需要做的就是解码你的直觉，以便能够有效地向其他人表达它。

So one of the frameworks that I use for this is SPOTAC.

因此，我为此使用的框架之一是 SPOTAC。

It's a very ugly acronym.

这是一个非常丑陋的缩写。

There's a hat tip to somebody out there in the universe who originally thought of this.

向宇宙中最初想到这一点的人致敬。

It's not me, but I adopted it.

不是我，但我采纳了。

And it's that people are smart, passionate, optimistic, tenacious, adaptable, and kind.

而是人们聪明、热情、乐观、顽强、适应力强、善良。

Those five things.

这五件事。

Six, can't even count.

六，数不过来。

I told you I lost a finger when I made a mistake, so I was down one.

我告诉过你，我犯了一个错误，失去了一根手指，所以我失去了一根手指。

Matt MacInnis: SPOTAC isn't by itself a good top down framework, but when you're thinking about, "Oh, why did this candidate just ...

Matt MacInnis：SPOTAC 本身并不是一个好的自上而下的框架，但是当你思考时，“哦，为什么这个候选人只是......

Why did it not click?

为什么没有点击？

Why did I not like them?" You go down the list, you're like, "Oh, yeah, no, this person, it's that they were not excited about the idea.

为什么我不喜欢他们？”你沿着清单往下看，你会说，“哦，是的，不，这个人，他们对这个想法并不感到兴奋。

They weren't passionate." It's that they talked shit about their previous manager and that they were a victim of the performance of their last two companies.

他们没有热情。”他们说的是他们前任经理的坏话，他们是前两家公司业绩的受害者。

That's what it was, they're not optimistic.

事情就是这样，他们并不乐观。

Matt MacInnis: The framework is super useful to evaluating people.

Matt MacInnis：这个框架对于评估人非常有用。

And I think the alpha beta framework is also super useful when you come away from a conversation and you're like, "I like that guy.

我认为 alpha beta 框架也非常有用，当你结束对话时你会想，“我喜欢那个人。

I think he'd be really, really good.

我认为他会非常非常优秀。

Why is it that I don't think he would do a good job on this product in particular?" And the answer is like, "This is a high alpha product area and he's a low beta person." Valuable, but definitely not the right fit for this.

为什么我觉得他在这个产品上做得不好？”答案就像是，“这是一个高 alpha 的产品领域，而他是一个低 beta 的人。”有价值，但绝对不适合这个。

So I think it's really useful in that context as well.

所以我认为它在这种情况下也非常有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love all these frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢所有这些框架。

You're speaking to this audience, framework to frameworks, frameworks.

你正在对这些观众讲话，框架对框架，框架。

Lenny Rachitsky: So high alpha, low beta, sometimes high beta is okay, SPOTAC.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以高 alpha，低 beta，有时高 beta 是可以的，SPOTAC。

In hiring, is there anything else that you find really useful?

在招聘过程中，您觉得还有什么真正有用的吗？

Before we move on to a different topic.

在我们转向不同的主题之前。

Matt MacInnis: When I first started working in the product organization, I was introduced to an interview framework or an interview tactic that I hadn't really used much at all, I think in my career, which is that every product person at every seniority level is given the same case study.

马特·麦金尼斯：当我第一次开始在产品组织工作时，有人向我介绍了一种面试框架或面试策略，我认为在我的职业生涯中，我根本没有真正使用过它，那就是每个资历级别的每个产品人员都会进行相同的案例研究。

And the case study is extraordinarily difficult.

而且案例研究非常困难。

It requires you to think about many, many dimensions simultaneously, to think about data propagation issues.

它需要你同时考虑很多很多维度，来思考数据传播问题。

It gets quite technical.

它变得非常技术性。

Matt MacInnis: And the rubric that we use to sort of evaluate performance of that case study is it gives you guidance on what for us, like an entry level PM looks like, what a junior, mid-career, senior executive PM might look like.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们用来评估该案例研究绩效的标准是，它为您提供指导，让您了解我们的入门级 PM 是什么样子，初级、职业中期、高级执行 PM 可能是什么样子。

And everybody comes away from that interview feeling like poop, like they had failed it.

面试结束后，每个人都感觉很糟糕，就像他们失败了一样。

Whereas on our side of it, we're like, "Wow, that person got really far." They saw around three or four corners in a really impressive way.

而我们这边，我们会说，“哇，那个人走得真远。”他们以令人印象深刻的方式看到了大约三四个角落。

There was 10 they didn't see around, but they saw around four of the hardest ones.

有 10 个他们没有看到，但他们看到了大约四个最难的。

And they were not defensive when we gave them new information that called into question the validity of their solution.

当我们向他们提供新信息并质疑他们解决方案的有效性时，他们并没有采取防御措施。

And they were willing to interrupt us to ask more questions," and and and, like a lot of the sort of basic human interaction models.

他们愿意打断我们问更多问题，”和，就像很多基本的人类互动模型一样。

Matt MacInnis: You never think that giving someone an impossible task and even including the L5 person versus the VP on the same thing would be productive.

Matt MacInnis：你永远不会认为给某人一项不可能的任务，甚至让 L5 人员与 VP 一起处理同一件事会富有成效。

And let's just say our recruiting team still sort of kvetches a bit about this and feels like we eliminate people too aggressively at this stage of the interview process.

这么说吧，我们的招聘团队对此仍然有点不满，感觉我们在面试过程的这个阶段过于激进地淘汰了人。

But I've found the wisdom in it and think it's actually quite useful to give everyone the same simple, complicated prompt and just see.

但我发现了其中的智慧，并且认为给每个人提供相同的简单或复杂的提示并看看实际上是非常有用的。

Hand them a drill bit, give them the concrete wall and see if they can get a millimeter or an inch into the concrete.

给他们一个钻头，给他们混凝土墙，看看他们能否进入混凝土一毫米或一英寸。

They're never going to get all the way through the wall.

他们永远无法完全穿过墙壁。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

You're going to learn a lot.

你会学到很多东西。

And I've found that to be kind of an eye-opening new thing for me that has been fun.

我发现这对我来说是一种令人大开眼界的新事物，而且很有趣。

Matt MacInnis: Look, the joy of product and the joy of product management and the joy of being part of product, I think there's a bunch of joys actually, if I could give you a sort of running list, but one of the big joys is that you get to work with some of the smartest people in software.

马特·麦金尼斯：听着，产品的乐趣、产品管理的乐趣以及成为产品一部分的乐趣，我认为如果我能给你一份运行清单的话，实际上有很多乐趣，但最大的乐趣之一是你可以与软件领域最聪明的人一起工作。

Engineers are very smart.

工程师非常聪明。

They're not always the best sort of social entities.

它们并不总是最好的社会实体。

Salespeople are awesome social entities.

销售人员是很棒的社会实体。

They're not always the best systems thinkers.

他们并不总是最好的系统思考者。

You go down the list.

你沿着清单往下走。

Matt MacInnis: But the magic of product management is that you kind of have to ...

马特·麦金尼斯：但是产品管理的魔力在于你必须......

We talk about the mini CEO.

我们谈论迷你首席执行官。

I think it's kind of a stupid misnomer, but there's some wisdom there.

我认为这是一个愚蠢的用词不当，但其中有一些智慧。

And I think the wisdom is that you have to be a polymath.

我认为智慧在于你必须成为一名博学者。

You've got to be really good at working with other people.

你必须非常善于与他人合作。

You got to be good at communications and articulation.

你必须善于沟通和表达。

You got to be good at project management.

你必须擅长项目管理。

You got to be good at the science and the math and the engineering.

你必须擅长科学、数学和工程学。

And it's really fucking cool.

这真的太酷了。

So I think one of the great joys of this job for me has been interacting with the tippity top of the smartest and most polymathic people in the industry.

所以我认为这份工作对我来说最大的乐趣之一就是与业内最聪明、最博学的人进行互动。

Matt MacInnis: I'll say one other thing about what I love about leading product, which is as a COO, my job was to accept the product as it was and optimize everything around that.

Matt MacInnis：关于我对领先产品的喜爱，我想说的另一件事是，作为首席运营官，我的工作是接受产品的本来面目，并优化围绕它的一切。

My job was to make sure that the product operations, in our business, the interface to the insurance carriers, the interface to the payment entities, the government regulators, that stuff all just sort of worked.

我的工作是确保我们业务中的产品运营、与保险公司的接口、与支付实体的接口、政府监管机构的接口，这些东西都能正常工作。

It was to make sure that our sales engine, our marketing engine, all the go to-market stuff optimized itself around what the product was.

这是为了确保我们的销售引擎、营销引擎以及所有进入市场的东西都围绕产品进行优化。

It was about recruiting and making sure we got people in to work on the product.

这是关于招聘并确保我们让人们参与产品开发。

You kind of go down any function that isn't in R&D, and I had some hand in trying to figure out how to make that function work to the best of its ability, given what the product was.

你可以把任何不属于研发的功能都记录下来，而我在考虑到产品是什么的情况下，尝试找出如何使该功能发挥最大作用的方法。

Matt MacInnis: And now that I lead product, I'm like, "Oh, wow.

马特·麦金尼斯：现在我负责产品，我想，“哦，哇。

This is the high order bit." Not that I didn't sort of understand that, but now I really get that product is the high order bit.

这是高位。”并不是说我不明白这一点，但现在我真的明白了产品是高阶位。

If you get the product right, it fits in the market, everything else gets easier.

如果你的产品正确，它适合市场，其他一切都会变得更容易。

Finance is easier, sales is easier, marketing is easier, recruiting is easier, everything gets fucking easier.

财务更容易，销售更容易，营销更容易，招聘更容易，一切都变得他妈的更容易。

So I think the other joy of leading the product function is that I get to set the highest order bit in the business's success to one.

所以我认为领导产品功能的另一个乐趣是我可以将业务成功的最高顺序设置为 1。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is really great to hear.

Lenny Rachitsky：很高兴听到这个消息。

A lot of times people outside product don't understand these sorts of things and look down on product a lot of times, especially sales folks, COOs a lot of times.

很多时候，产品之外的人不理解这些事情，并且很多时候都看不起产品，尤其是销售人员、首席运营官很多时候。

I love that you're seeing this and realizing this and recognizing just how important and interesting and challenging this work is and just how awesome PMs are.

我很高兴您看到并认识到这一点，并认识到这项工作是多么重要、有趣和具有挑战性，以及 PM 是多么出色。

As you know, a lot of people are a very anti-product manager.

如您所知，很多人都是非常反产品经理的。

"Why do we need product managers?

“我们为什么需要产品经理？

We don't need them.

我们不需要它们。

Slow everything down, all this process."

放慢一切，放慢整个过程。”

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

I have a distinction there, which is that I'm anti-shitty product managers.

我有一个区别，那就是我是反垃圾产品经理。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's exactly how I put it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我就是这么说的。

If you hate product managers, you just haven't worked with a great product manager.

如果你讨厌产品经理，那说明你还没有和优秀的产品经理一起工作过。

Matt MacInnis: Well, it's like, look, I love wine, wine's one of my things.

马特·麦金尼斯：嗯，就像，看，我喜欢葡萄酒，葡萄酒是我的爱好之一。

And I've learned a lot about wine.

我学到了很多关于葡萄酒的知识。

And one of my favorite lines is like, "I don't like Chardonnay." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Chardonnay's are the most fucking amazing varieties of wine in the world.

我最喜欢的台词之一是“我不喜欢霞多丽”。我说，“不，不，不，不，不。霞多丽是世界上最令人惊叹的葡萄酒品种。

You just haven't had good Chardonnay.

你只是没有喝到好的霞多丽。

And there's a Chardonnay out there for you." Product management, it's like you don't like product management, you think product managers suck.

还有一款霞多丽适合您。”产品管理，就像你不喜欢产品管理，你觉得产品经理很烂一样。

It's like, well, you just haven't had a good Chardonnay yet.

就好像，好吧，你只是还没有喝到好的霞多丽葡萄酒。

Matt MacInnis: Once you have one, you can't unlearn it.

马特·麦金尼斯：一旦你拥有了它，你就无法忘记它。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're like, "Let's find that PM ASAP."

Lenny Rachitsky：你会说，“让我们尽快找到那个 PM。”

Matt MacInnis: No, let's find that Chardonnay ASAP.

马特·麦金尼斯：不，我们尽快找到霞多丽。

Lenny Rachitsky: with some Chardonnay.

Lenny Rachitsky：搭配一些霞多丽。

You touched on this product market fit point, and I want to double down on this thread.

您谈到了这个产品市场契合点，我想在这个话题上加倍努力。

You've had a couple really interesting experiences of struggling to find product market fit with your own startup.

您在努力寻找适合您自己的初创公司的产品市场方面有过一些非常有趣的经历。

You said you worked on it for nine years, you said?

你说你为此工作了九年，你说？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And then with Rippling, complete opposite, extreme product market fit, up and to the right.

然后是 Rippling，完全相反，极端的产品市场契合度，向上和向右。

What's something you've learned about just that that you think people maybe don't understand about what it feels like, what it takes to get to product market fit, how things change?

您认为人们可能不理解它的感觉是什么，如何才能适应产品市场，以及事情如何变化？

Matt MacInnis: There's a line that this venture capitalist, whose name I will not mention, said, which was that product market fit is a sort of thing where you absolutely know it when you see it, and therefore if you don't absolutely know it, you don't have it.

马特·麦金尼斯：这位风险投资家（我不会提及他的名字）说过一句话，那就是产品市场契合度是一种当你看到它时你绝对知道它的东西，因此，如果你不完全知道它，你就没有它。

Matt MacInnis: And this kind of gets back to my point about learning from mistakes versus successes.

马特·麦金尼斯：这又回到了我从错误和成功中学习的观点。

It's like, ah, man, over and over again, over the course of the many years that I spent at Inkling, we thought we had it.

就像，啊，伙计，在我在 Inkling 度过的这些年里，我们一遍又一遍地认为我们已经拥有了它。

We thought we had product market fit, maybe, maybe.

我们认为我们的产品适合市场，也许，也许。

And in hindsight, with the benefit of now having experienced solid product market fit, it was so, so obvious that we didn't.

事后看来，由于现在已经体验到了坚实的产品市场契合度，所以很明显我们没有这样做。

Matt MacInnis: And I've invested in like 60 companies or 70 companies.

马特·麦金尼斯：我投资了大约 60 家或 70 家公司。

I don't know, it's not something I actively do.

我不知道，这不是我主动做的事情。

But opportunities, by virtue, I think, of my role at Rippling, sort of show up.

但我认为，凭借我在 Rippling 的角色，机会就出现了。

And I talk to lots of entrepreneurs and I love it and I find it super stimulating and I love the fresh ideas and it's just something I do as a real cherry on top of the sport that I play already.

我和很多企业家交谈过，我喜欢它，我发现它超级刺激，我喜欢新鲜的想法，这只是我在我已经参加的运动之上真正做的事情。

But when I get the investor updates for the guys who've been at it for like three, four years and I read the updates from them that I sent to my investors in 2011 and 2012, I'm kind of heartbroken.

但是，当我收到那些已经从事了三四年的人的投资者最新动态，并阅读他们在 2011 年和 2012 年发送给投资者的最新动态时，我有点心碎。

Matt MacInnis: We talk in Silicon Valley about never quit, but that is complete absolute venture capital bullshit.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们在硅谷谈论永不放弃，但这绝对是风险投资的废话。

The incentive of venture capitalist is to put money into your company and milk you dry.

风险投资家的动机就是把钱投入你的公司，然后榨干你的钱。

They never get their money back.

他们永远拿不回钱。

There is no way for them to take that investment back.

他们没有办法收回这笔投资。

So the only logical desire that they would have is for you to keep trying against all odds because there is the occasional example where someone pivoted from A to X and it was wildly different and it worked.

因此，他们唯一合乎逻辑的愿望就是让你克服一切困难继续尝试，因为偶尔会有这样的例子，有人从 A 转向 X，结果截然不同，但它确实有效。

Slack was originally some sort of a gaming company and became corporate chat.

Slack 最初是一家游戏公司，后来发展成为企业聊天公司。

Airbnb maybe.

也许是爱彼迎。

It's like there's some examples of companies having made wild pivots and succeeded, but man, is that rare.

好像有一些公司进行疯狂转型并取得成功的例子，但天哪，这种情况很少见。

Just so exceedingly rare.

实在是太罕见了。

Matt MacInnis: And I think it's important to remember, I'm 45 years old, we're going to be on the planet, the average age of a man in the United States when he dies is something in the mid 70s.

马特·麦金尼斯：我认为重要的是要记住，我已经 45 岁了，我们将生活在这个星球上，美国男性去世时的平均年龄约为 70 多岁。

I got 20, 30, maybe if I'm lucky, 40 years left on the planet.

我还有 20 年、30 年，如果我幸运的话，也许我在这个星球上还剩下 40 年。

Very conscious of the time that I have.

非常清楚我所拥有的时间。

And I don't regret what I did at Inkling, I learned a lot.

我并不后悔在 Inkling 所做的事情，我学到了很多东西。

It informed what I do now.

它告诉我现在要做的事情。

I don't think the chapter I'm in right now could have come without the chapters before it.

我认为如果没有之前的章节，我现在所在的章节就不可能出现。

So it's a beautiful, wonderful thing that I did what I did.

所以我所做的事情是一件美丽而美妙的事情。

But when I read the investor update and I'm like, "You're where I was and you are not getting out of this."

但当我读到投资者最新消息时，我想，“你和我一样，但你无法摆脱困境。”

Matt MacInnis: The Silicon Valley try until you die mindset is not pro-entrepreneur, it's pro-venture capitalist.

马特·麦金尼斯：硅谷的“努力到死”的心态不是支持企业家，而是支持风险资本家。

And I know why that is, but I think it's important to say out loud that you should fucking quit.

我知道这是为什么，但我认为大声说你应该退出是很重要的。

You should reset the clock, you should reset the cap table because trust me, product market fit when it arrives is insane and it's exciting and you should pursue it.

你应该重置时钟，你应该重置上限表，因为相信我，产品市场契合度到来时是疯狂的，它是令人兴奋的，你应该追求它。

And never delude yourself into believing you have it when you don't.

当你没有的时候，永远不要欺骗自己相信你拥有它。

It is dangerous and regrettable.

这是危险且令人遗憾的。

How's that for a speech?

演讲怎么样？

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。

The anti-VC speech.

反VC言论。

The-

该-

Matt MacInnis: I got more where that came from.

马特·麦金尼斯：我从哪里得到了更多信息。

By the way, it's not anti-VC.

顺便说一句，这并不是反VC。

It's anti-

它是反-

Matt MacInnis: Everybody's acting in accordance with their incentives in Silicon Valley, the executives, the founders, the venture ...

马特·麦金尼斯：硅谷的每个人都按照自己的动机行事，高管、创始人、企业……

Everybody's, of course, behaving in accordance with their incentives.

当然，每个人都会根据自己的动机行事。

And the venture capitalists have very strong enduring incentives that have shaped the dynamic of how Silicon Valley works.

风险投资家拥有非常强大且持久的激励机制，这些激励机制塑造了硅谷的运作方式。

There's nothing wrong with that.

这没有什么问题。

It's just really, really important to point them out and scream at them for the 25-year-old entrepreneur who has no fucking clue how this stuff works.

对于一个根本不知道这些东西是如何运作的 25 岁企业家来说，指出这些问题并向他们大喊大叫真的非常非常重要。

Matt MacInnis: Trust me, the 45-year-old entrepreneur or the 50-year-old venture capitalist who've been in the game for a while, they get it.

马特·麦金尼斯：相信我，无论是 45 岁的企业家还是 50 岁的风险投资家，只要在这个游戏中待了一段时间，他们就会明白。

They've observed it.

他们已经观察到了。

They know what it's like.

他们知道那是什么样子。

The system is there to take advantage of the people who don't, or at least it is the easiest prey for the incentive structures, not for venture capitalists as individual people who are beautiful and all of them are just really wonderful people.

这个系统的存在是为了利用那些不这样做的人，或者至少它是激励结构最容易的猎物，而不是风险资本家，因为他们是美丽的个人，他们都是非常出色的人。

It's just that the incentive structures lead to some real harm, I think, in certain cases.

我认为，只是在某些情况下，激励结构会导致一些真正的伤害。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the thing I find is when you do quit, VCs ...

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现当你退出时，风险投资家......

I'm always just like, "Hey, let me know when you're starting your next thing.

我总是会说，“嘿，当你开始下一件事时请告诉我。

I'm excited to invest." They're rarely, unless they're not a great VC, rarely are they just pissed at you for how could you possibly not make this work .

我很高兴能够投资。”他们很少会因为你怎么可能不让这项工作成功而对你生气，除非他们不是一个伟大的风险投资家。

Matt MacInnis: That's the thing, as a founder, when it's time to throw in the towel on your business and you're so obsessed with giving money back to the cap table, I always remind the entrepreneur like, "Hey, if you're in the seed investing game, your forecast is zero.

马特·麦金尼斯：作为创始人，事情就是这样的，当你到了要放弃你的业务并且你如此痴迷于将资金返还给股权结构表时，我总是提醒企业家，“嘿，如果你参与种子投资游戏，你的预测为零。

Your assumption on every investment is that it's going to go to zero." Any seed investor who doesn't take that stance is off their rocker anyway.

你对每项投资的假设都是它会归零。”无论如何，任何不采取这种立场的种子投资者都会发疯。

They're a very bad investor.

他们是一个非常糟糕的投资者。

Seek investors who play the long game, who want to be in your second and third company and are willing to take a bet on the first one and let it go to zero so that you can get on with stuff.

寻找那些玩长远游戏的投资者，他们想加入你的第二家和第三家公司，并且愿意在第一家公司下注，并将其归零，以便你可以继续做事。

This is like, I've had that conversation many times.

就像，我已经进行过很多次这样的谈话。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by GoFundMe Giving Funds, the zero-fee donor-advised fund.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由零费用捐赠者建议基金 GoFundMe Giving Funds 为您带来。

I want to tell you about a new DAF product that GoFundMe just launched that makes year-end giving easy.

我想向您介绍 GoFundMe 刚刚推出的一款新 DAF 产品，该产品使年终捐赠变得简单。

GoFundMe Giving Funds is the DAF or donor-advised fund supported by the world's number one giving platform and trusted by over 200 million people.

GoFundMe 捐赠基金是 DAF 或捐赠者建议基金，由世界第一捐赠平台支持，受到超过 2 亿人的信赖。

It's basically your own mini foundation, without the lawyers or admin costs.

它基本上是您自己的迷你基金会，无需律师或管理费用。

You contribute money or appreciated assets like stocks, get the tax deduction right away, potentially reduce capital gains, and then decide later where you want to donate.

您贡献金钱或股票等升值资产，立即获得税收减免，可能会减少资本收益，然后再决定您想要捐赠的地方。

There are zero admin or asset fees, and you can lock in your deductions now and decide where to give later, which is perfect for year-end giving.

管理费或资产费为零，您现在可以锁定扣除额并决定稍后捐赠的地方，这非常适合年终捐赠。

Join the GoFundMe community of over 200 million people and start saving money on your tax bill, all while helping the causes that you care about most.

加入拥有超过 2 亿人的 GoFundMe 社区，开始节省税款，同时帮助您最关心的事业。

Start your giving fund today at gofundme.com/lenny.

立即访问 gofundme.com/lenny 开始您的捐赠基金。

If you transfer your existing DAF over, they'll even cover the DAF pay fees.

如果您将现有的 DAF 转移过来，他们甚至会支付 DAF 支付费用。

That's gofundme.com/lenny to get started.

请从 gofundme.com/lenny 开始。

This begs the question of just when is it time to quit?

这就引出了一个问题：什么时候该戒烟？

If people hearing this might be like, "Oh man," what are some signs that, okay, it's time to wrap it up?

如果人们听到这句话可能会说，“哦，伙计，”有哪些迹象表明，好吧，是时候结束了？

Matt MacInnis: Here, look, history provides us with a clear guide.

马特·麦金尼斯：看，历史为我们提供了清晰的指导。

When you look at companies having hit it big, they hit big pretty quick.

当你观察那些已经取得巨大成功的公司时，你会发现它们很快就取得了巨大的成功。

It's very, very dangerous to be late to the party, it's very, very dangerous to be early to the party, and the vast majority of the time, that's the problem.

参加聚会迟到是非常非常危险的，早到聚会也是非常非常危险的，而绝大多数时候，这就是问题所在。

Rippling, had it been started in 2014, would not be what it is today.

如果 Ripple 是在 2014 年开始的，就不会是今天的样子。

I think Rippling, had it been started today, would not be what-

我认为涟漪如果从今天开始，就不会是——

Matt MacInnis: ...Not be what it is today.

马特·麦金尼斯：……不是今天这样。

I think Rippling, had it been started today, would not be what it is five years from now today, and so I think timing is a lot and it's very hard to control for, but when you get the timing right and the market is real and the product works, product market fit, like I said earlier, it's super clear, and so if I were to pick a number out of a hat just from my lived experience, I think it's very important, one aside, don't ask people for advice, ask people for relevant experience.

我认为，如果今天开始，Rippling 就不会是五年后的样子，所以我认为时机很重要，而且很难控制，但是当你掌握了正确的时机，市场是真实的，产品有效，产品市场适合，就像我之前说的，这是非常清楚的，所以如果我要从我的生活经验中选出一个数字，我认为这是非常重要的，一方面，不要向人们寻求建议，向人们询问相关的信息经验。

If you ask them for advice, they will always give it, but if you ask them for relevant experience, they rarely have any to offer, and if they don't have any to offer, then don't ask for their advice.

如果你向他们寻求建议，他们总是会提供，但如果你向他们询问相关经验，他们很少能提供任何东西，如果他们没有任何东西可以提供，那就不要征求他们的建议。

Matt MacInnis: So ask people for relevant experience, and I try to do this with my own entrepreneurs when I work with them, it's like, let me offer you whatever relevant experience I have, and my relevant experience on this topic of when to quit is like, I think we could have called it after the second or third pivot, which was somewhere around year four.

马特·麦金尼斯：因此，请人们提供相关经验，当我与自己的企业家合作时，我会尝试与他们一起这样做，就像让我向您提供我拥有的任何相关经验，我在何时退出这个主题上的相关经验就像，我认为我们可以在第二个或第三个支点之后调用它，大约在第四年左右。

It is of course very important to believe in what you're building and to be persistent, but there is definitely no shame in saying, "Look, we've pivoted once or twice.

当然，相信你正在构建的东西并坚持不懈非常重要，但是说“看，我们已经转变了一两次”绝对没有什么可羞耻的。

It's not catching.

它没有抓住。

I got to go do the next thing," and I think if you're year four, year five in your entrepreneurship journey, and it's not just obviously a screaming rip-roaring growth story, it's extraordinarily difficult.

我必须去做下一件事。”我想，如果你已经进入创业之旅的第四年、第五年，这显然不仅仅是一个令人尖叫的、轰轰烈烈的成长故事，而且是非常困难的。

This is so extremely rare.

这是非常罕见的。

So beyond even already the rare scores you're going to face from the outset that now is going to convert to something crazy.

因此，除了你从一开始就将面临的罕见分数之外，现在将转变为疯狂的事情。

So that's hard to hear, I guess, but man, it can be really liberating when you're like, "Fuck it, I'm going to do this.

所以我想这很难听，但是伙计，当你想“操，我要这么做时，这真的是一种解放。”

I have the energy.

我有精力。

I'm going to do it again.

我会再做一次。

I'm just going to do it with a clean sheet."

我只想以零失球的方式做到这一点。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有帮助。

You have this really fun way of describing product market fit around receptors and drugs.

你用这种非常有趣的方式来描述受体和药物的产品市场契合度。

Matt MacInnis: Oh yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：哦，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I think this is a really fundamentally misunderstood dynamic.

我认为这是一种从根本上被误解的动态。

When founders message me and they're like, "Hey, like my LinkedIn post and my tweet for this launch," I do it.

当创始人给我发消息说，“嘿，喜欢我的 LinkedIn 帖子和这次发布的推文”时，我就会这么做。

I retweet it, I like it, whatever.

我转发它，我喜欢它，无论如何。

Nobody follows my Twitter anyways, it doesn't matter, but I do that, but I think to myself, this is not what this is about.

无论如何，没有人关注我的推特，这并不重要，但我这样做了，但我对自己说，这不是重点。

This is not how great companies are built.

伟大的公司不是这样建立起来的。

It can be a nucleating event, but it's not a major thing, because nobody cares about your company.

这可能是一个核心事件，但并不是什么大事，因为没有人关心你的公司。

Your launch doesn't matter.

你的发射并不重要。

Big, fat, pull the slingshot back, launches amount to the teeniest thimble of water in the ocean of noise about startups and companies, and so you just got to build it brick by brick bottom up, and these launches don't really amount to much, and so how do you think about that?

又大又胖，把弹弓拉回来，发射相当于初创公司和公司的喧嚣海洋中最小的顶针水，所以你只能从下到上一砖一瓦地建造它，而这些发射实际上并不算多，所以你怎么看待这一点？

How do you think about the insignificance of your launch or you think about all the effort you're putting into building a product that you believe is going to have product market fit?

您如何看待您的产品发布的微不足道，或者您如何看待您为构建您认为将具有产品市场契合度的产品而付出的所有努力？

Matt MacInnis: Well, if you recognize that the market is immutable, no amount of tweeting, LinkedIn posting, advertising is going to change whether the market wants your product.

马特·麦金尼斯：好吧，如果你认识到市场是一成不变的，那么无论市场是否需要你的产品，再多的推文、LinkedIn 发帖、广告也不会改变。

It might raise awareness about your product, but it's not going to change whether somebody wants it.

它可能会提高人们对您产品的认识，但不会改变是否有人想要它。

Then you take a different mindset.

然后你就会采取不同的心态。

You have to view your startup as running an experiment in the universe to see what you get in return for that, and this analogy of drug discovery and binding receptors is like nobody at Genentech thinks they can market their way to better performance inside your body.

你必须将你的初创公司视为在宇宙中进行一项实验，看看你会得到什么回报，而这种药物发现和结合受体的类比就像基因泰克公司没有人认为他们可以通过推销自己的方式来在你的体内获得更好的性能一样。

The binding receptors for that drug, they exist or they don't, and when they build their product, their goal is to find out whether the binding receptors exist, but fate already has decided the outcome.

该药物的结合受体，它们存在或不存在，当他们制造产品时，他们的目标是找出结合受体是否存在，但命运已经决定了结果。

This is absolutely true of every software product you build.

这对于您构建的每个软件产品来说都是绝对正确的。

Fate has already decided the outcome.

命运早已决定了结果。

The market's either going to latch onto your product and run with it or it's not.

市场要么会抓住你的产品并随之运行，要么不会。

Do not ship the product, find a lack of success, and then try to market your way through that, because the binding receptors likely don't exist, and for me, it was a very liberating mindset, because now I just have to find the right drug, and I can forget trying to convince the body to develop the binding receptors for whatever it is that I'm building.

不要运送产品，发现缺乏成功，然后尝试推销你的方法，因为结合受体可能不存在，对我来说，这是一种非常解放的心态，因为现在我只需要找到合适的药物，我可以忘记试图说服身体为我正在构建的任何东西开发结合受体。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about your advice here is you were an early investor in Notion, which is one of the classic stories of it took them...

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的建议的一点是你是 Notion 的早期投资者，这是他们的经典故事之一......

I think it was four years to get to something.

我认为花了四年的时间才得到一些东西。

They moved to Japan, they worked on the whole thing, and so is from there?

他们搬到了日本，他们负责整个事情，那么是从那里开始的吗？

Is that a rare example where it actually worked?

这是一个真正有效的罕见例子吗？

And that's not an example to be inspired by, because it's extremely, extremely rare.

这不是一个可以激发灵感的例子，因为它非常非常罕见。

Let's talk about alpha beta again.

我们再谈谈阿尔法贝塔。

Matt MacInnis: Okay.

马特·麦金尼斯：好的。

As an investor, you might build a checklist of things you want to make sure are true or false about a company and hope that that's going to yield the kind of investment success you're looking for.

作为投资者，您可能会制定一份清单，列出您想要确保一家公司的真实或错误的事项，并希望这会带来您所寻求的投资成功。

Does it have this kind of founder?

有这样的创始人吗？

Is it a C Corp in Delaware?

它是特拉华州的 C 公司吗？

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and these checklists are all about what?

繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣，这些清单都是关于什么的？

They're all about suppressing beta.

它们都是为了抑制贝塔值。

They're about avoiding avoidable mistakes.

它们是为了避免可避免的错误。

They're about bringing stability.

他们的目的是带来稳定。

Jeff Lewis is an investor who has many angular views on things, and I think one of his most enduring phrases is narrative violations.

杰夫·刘易斯（Jeff Lewis）是一位对事物有很多角度观点的投资者，我认为他最经久不衰的短语之一就是叙事违规。

This idea that the common wisdom must be violated in some way by every company that has an outsized success.

每家取得巨大成功的公司都必须在某种程度上违反这种常识。

It is absolutely true, and when I give these general observations on the patterns in Silicon Valley, the most successful businesses inevitably violate something on that list in some really important way.

这是绝对正确的，当我对硅谷的模式进行这些一般性观察时，最成功的企业不可避免地会以某种非常重要的方式违反该清单上的某些内容。

Matt MacInnis: So Notion, you can't replicate Notion's success as an entrepreneur.

Matt MacInnis：所以 Notion，你无法复制 Notion 作为企业家的成功。

You can't replicate it because you're not Ivan.

你无法复制它，因为你不是伊万。

You can't replicate it because you're not Notion.

你无法复制它，因为你不是 Notion。

You can't replicate it because it's not 2010 when they started the company.

你无法复制它，因为他们创办公司的时候还不是 2010 年。

Do the math on that.

对此进行数学计算。

Or 2011, actually.

实际上是 2011 年。

These guys stuck with it.

这些人坚持了下来。

They went through hell.

他们经历了地狱。

They pivoted.

他们转向了。

They went to Japan and sat in kimonos and meditated on what they were going to build, and by hook/crook, they got to where they are today as a really wildly successful business in an extraordinarily difficult market where building businesses is virtually impossible in productivity.

他们去了日本，穿着和服，沉思着自己要创造什么，通过不择手段，他们在一个极其困难的市场上取得了今天的成就，成为了一家非常成功的企业，在这个市场上，建立企业在生产力方面几乎是不可能的。

It is dominated by Google and Microsoft.

它由谷歌和微软主导。

Carving out your own niche in that market is just unthinkable, and so I look at Notion as having succeeded by virtue of the narrative violation of persistence, I don't think is a good idea for very many people that happen to work for them, and I look at it as being a function of the founding team and their specific idiosyncrasies, the absolute insistence on craftsmanship from Ivan.

在这个市场上开辟自己的利基市场是不可想象的，所以我认为 Notion 的成功是由于对坚持的叙事违反，我认为这对于很多碰巧为他们工作的人来说不是一个好主意，我认为这是创始团队及其特定特质的一个功能，即对 Ivan 工艺的绝对坚持。

This is him.

这就是他。

That's his thing.

那是他的事。

Matt MacInnis: The takeaway lesson is not give up or don't give up.

马特·麦金尼斯：最重要的教训是不要放弃或不要放弃。

The takeaway lesson is certainly not go do what Notion did.

外卖的教训当然是不要去做Notion所做的事情。

The takeaway lesson is that every company succeeds on the foundations of the idiosyncrasies of the founder.

最重要的教训是，每家公司的成功都是基于创始人的特质。

The idiosyncrasies of the founder.

创始人的特质。

Rippling succeeds for almost the polar opposite reasons that Notion succeeds, but in both cases, the companies succeed on the idiosyncrasies of the founder, and so embracing that, recognizing those idiosyncrasies, that's what great investors do.

Rippling 的成功与 Notion 的成功原因几乎完全相反，但在这两种情况下，公司的成功都是依靠创始人的特质，因此拥抱这一点，认识到这些特质，这就是伟大的投资者所做的。

They spot that element of spikiness and greatness in a candidate investment, and they convert that to a commitment, and then of course the investor or the good ones accept what they get in exchange from that for the universe, from the universe.

他们在候选投资中发现了尖刻和伟大的元素，并将其转化为承诺，然后投资者或好人当然会接受他们从宇宙中换取的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we went in this direction.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢我们朝这个方向前进。

I wasn't planning to talk about your investing career.

我本来不想谈论你的投资生涯。

Just to give people a reason to listen to this and maybe rewind, and I want to ask another question around investing.

只是为了给人们一个听这个的理由，也许可以倒带，我想问另一个有关投资的问题。

What are some other companies you invested in early?

您早期还投资了哪些公司？

Matt MacInnis: First of all, okay, so I sort of hate the question.

马特·麦金尼斯：首先，好吧，所以我有点讨厌这个问题。

What are some other companies you've invested in?

您还投资过哪些其他公司？

It's a fair question, but the problem is I'm going to give you a bunch of companies I've invested in that won, that are really notable.

这是一个公平的问题，但问题是我将向您介绍一些我投资过的、非常引人注目的公司。

So what I would like to do instead of answering that question ...

所以我想做的不是回答这个问题......

Here, let me give you some bait.

来，让我给你一些诱饵。

I was one of the first investors in Notion.

我是 Notion 的第一批投资者之一。

I was perhaps the first, I don't know, ask Ivan.

我可能是第一个，我不知道，问问伊万。

Clever, which had a great exit.

聪明，有一个很好的退出。

I was one of the first investors in Zenefits, if you've heard of it.

如果您听说过，我是 Zenefits 的第一批投资者之一。

Matt MacInnis: I was, before I joined, one of the first investors in Rippling, and then more recently invested in ...

Matt MacInnis：在加入之前，我是 Rippling 的首批投资者之一，最近又投资了......

Here's a funny one.

这是一个有趣的。

I was one of the first investors in Deal, if you've heard of them.

如果你听说过 Deal，我是第一批投资者之一。

Matt MacInnis: I was able to exit that position, and then hopefully that company's going to zero with their criminal behavior, but whatever, but more recently, if you know Decagon, which is doing some really cool stuff on the AI front.

马特·麦金尼斯：我能够退出这个职位，然后希望该公司将他们的犯罪行为归零，但无论如何，但最近，如果你知道 Decagon，它在人工智能领域做了一些非常酷的事情。

Matt MacInnis: I'm in laying chain.

马特·麦金尼斯：我正在铺设链条。

Great.

伟大的。

So those are some companies that you maybe have heard of, but how about I invested in Macro.

这些是你可能听说过的一些公司，但我投资Macro怎么样？

Founder was Derek Lee.

创始人是德里克·李。

Macro's out of business.

宏已经破产了。

I invested in Debrief, Ned Rockson.

我投资了 Debrief，Ned Rockson。

It's out of business.

它没生意了。

I invested in Verb Data with David Hertz out of business.

当 David Hertz 倒闭时，我投资了 Verb Data。

I'm reading from a list.

我正在从列表中读取内容。

I invested in...

我投资了...

What's the number?

号码是多少？

70 companies according to this list where I track things and most of them went to zero and all those founders were awesome, all those founders were kick, and all those founders put a ton of energy into building their businesses, and they went to zero and they're enduring relationships.

根据我跟踪的这份清单，有 70 家公司，其中大多数都归零了，所有这些创始人都很棒，所有这些创始人都很出色，所有这些创始人都投入了大量的精力来建立他们的业务，他们归零了，而且他们的关系是持久的。

Matt MacInnis: I can call on any of those people, I think, maybe with the exception of Deal, and call in a favor and have...

马特·麦金尼斯：我想，我可以拜访这些人中的任何一个，也许除了迪尔之外，并寻求帮助并获得……

and I've got a few subsequent...

我还有一些后续的...

and actually a lot of them joined Rippling, believe it or not.

不管你信不信，实际上他们中的很多人都加入了 Rippling。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

Companies I've invested in is a long list, and I love to give you names of companies that don't exist anymore because it's self-serving and a horrible survivorship bias to just list the good ones.

我投资过的公司是一长串，我喜欢给你一些已经不存在的公司的名字，因为只列出好的公司是自私的，也是一种可怕的生存偏见。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个答案。

I think you're being modest in the context of your hit rate is clearly very high.

我认为你很谦虚，因为你的命中率显然非常高。

Even one or two incredibly successful companies out of 70 is a win in VC, and so you're doing very well, but I think that's a really important perspective.

即使是 70 家公司中的一两家非常成功的公司也是风险投资的胜利，所以你做得很好，但我认为这是一个非常重要的观点。

When you see people's logos on their websites of all the companies they've invested in, you have no idea how many hit bats they've had.

当你在人们的网站上看到他们投资的所有公司的标志时，你不知道他们有多少次成功。

Matt MacInnis: I think it's good practice to ask people to give you the full list.

马特·麦金尼斯：我认为要求人们给你完整的清单是一个很好的做法。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are your favorite failures that you've invested in?

Lenny Rachitsky：您投资的最失败的项目是什么？

Matt MacInnis: Oh, no. I'm not actually...

马特·麦金尼斯：哦，不。我其实不是...

Okay.

好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, obviously, no, we don't need spend time on it, but I think it's actually a really good question, but yeah, what are some of your best failed investments?

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，显然，不，我们不需要花时间在这上面，但我认为这实际上是一个很好的问题，但是，是的，你最好的失败投资是什么？

Show me the logos of the companies that didn't work out.

给我看看那些不成功的公司的标志。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a topic around this area that I wanted to spend time on, and I haven't heard anyone think of things this way, which is this idea you talk about of compounding plus power law plus entropy and how that's a really useful frame to think about business.

Lenny Rachitsky：围绕这个领域有一个话题我想花时间讨论，我还没有听到有人以这种方式思考问题，这就是你所说的复合加幂律加熵的想法，以及这是一个思考商业的真正有用的框架。

Matt MacInnis: So you kicked this conversation off sort of invoking the extraordinary outcomes, demand, extraordinary efforts line, hat tip to Dan Gill, and these are part and parcel.

马特·麦金尼斯：所以你开始这次谈话时提到了非凡的成果、需求、非凡的努力，向丹·吉尔致敬，这些都是重要的组成部分。

Man, understanding the nature of the universe is a pretty good way to work within it, and so power law distributions happen everywhere.

伙计，理解宇宙的本质是在宇宙中工作的一个很好的方法，所以幂律分布无处不在。

It explains why so few people control so much wealth.

这解释了为什么控制如此多财富的人如此之少。

It explains why Steph Curry is just so vastly better than the next guy down on the list on the basketball team.

这解释了为什么斯蒂芬·库里比篮球队名单上的下一位球员要好得多。

It explains why populations are concentrated into a relatively small number of mega cities in the world.

它解释了为什么人口集中在世界上相对较少的大城市。

It's like, power law distribution just plays out everywhere, and once you see it, you can't unsee it.

就像幂律分布无处不在，一旦你看到它，你就无法忽视它。

It sort of plays out in many dynamics.

它在许多动态中发挥着作用。

Matt MacInnis: People tend to think that the world plays on a more linear relationship where the X and Y axis are sort of Y equals X, but that is absolutely not the case, and the implications are profound.

马特·麦金尼斯：人们倾向于认为世界是在一种更加线性的关系中发挥作用，其中 X 轴和 Y 轴有点等于 X，但事实绝对不是这样，而且其含义是深远的。

It's like if you build something to 80 or 90%, the Y axis is barely budged yet.

就好像如果你构建了 80% 或 90% 的东西，Y 轴几乎没有变化。

You haven't hit the inflection point in terms of reward, and so the implication of the power law more broadly is that people who are in the top 10%, the top 5%, don't just get 10 or 20% more reward.

就奖励而言，你还没有达到拐点，因此幂律的更广泛含义是，排名前 10%、前 5% 的人不仅仅会获得多 10% 或 20% 的奖励。

They get 10X the reward or 100X the reward.

他们获得 10 倍或 100 倍的奖励。

It's really dramatic.

真是太戏剧性了。

Matt MacInnis: Entropy, the second law of thermodynamics is a very simple concept.

马特·麦金尼斯：熵，热力学第二定律是一个非常简单的概念。

It's the reason your sock drawer becomes messy.

这就是你的袜子抽屉变得凌乱的原因。

It's the reason that potholes form.

这就是坑洼形成的原因。

It's the reason we have to put so much energy into maintaining the aircraft we fly to keep them safe because they really, really, really want to fall apart, and that's the nature of things.

这就是为什么我们必须投入如此多的精力来维护我们驾驶的飞机以确保它们的安全，因为它们真的、真的、真的想要解体，这就是事物的本质。

If you abandon a city for a few months, it starts to go fallow, and so entropy is just this concept that shit tends toward disorder.

如果你放弃一座城市几个月，它就会开始闲置，所以熵就是这个概念，狗屎会变得无序。

Matt MacInnis: The universe, I mean, life itself is a temporary victory against entropy.

马特·麦金尼斯：我的意思是，宇宙，生命本身就是对熵的暂时胜利。

You and I should not exist.

你和我不应该存在。

The sun gives energy to the planet.

太阳为地球提供能量。

It organizes stuff that we can eat and we fight entropy until we lose the battle somewhere, as I said earlier at the age of 70 or 80, if we're lucky.

它组织我们可以吃的东西，我们与熵作斗争，直到我们在某个地方输掉这场战斗，正如我早些时候在 70 或 80 岁时所说的那样，如果我们幸运的话。

What does this have to do with product?

这和产品有什么关系？

This is really about effort.

这确实是靠努力。

Matt MacInnis: The only antidote to entropy, the only antidote to decay in a system is energy.

马特·麦金尼斯：熵的唯一解药，系统衰变的唯一解药是能量。

You got to inject energy.

你必须注入能量。

So if you have a code base, every line of code that you add to that code base increases the entropy of that system and demands ever more energy from human beings to go and intend to it to make sure it doesn't break, and if you want to achieve greatness, if you want an extraordinary outcome, and in particular, if you want to be in the top 10%, top 5% on the X axis so that the Y axis is through the roof, then you have to relentlessly inject energy at every single step of the game.

因此，如果你有一个代码库，添加到该代码库中的每一行代码都会增加该系统的熵，并且需要人类投入更多的精力来确保它不会崩溃，如果你想实现伟大，如果你想要一个非凡的结果，特别是如果你想在 X 轴上进入前 10%、前 5%，以便 Y 轴穿过屋顶，那么你必须在系统的每一步中不懈地注入能量。游戏。

Teams will, sadly, but because we are all human, teams will always optimize for local comfort over company outcomes.

遗憾的是，团队会这样做，但因为我们都是人，所以团队总是会针对公司成果进行优化，以实现本地舒适度。

Matt MacInnis: Not because they get together and think, "We should do that," although unions do do that unequivocally, deliberately, but even in a collection of product managers or engineers, what's going to happen over time is entropy is going to creep in and people are going to optimize for local comfort.

马特·麦金尼斯：并不是因为他们聚在一起思考“我们应该这样做”，尽管工会确实明确地、故意地这样做，但即使是在产品经理或工程师的集合中，随着时间的推移，将会发生的情况是熵会悄悄进入，人们会为了当地的舒适度而进行优化。

Your job as an executive, as a leader, is to fight that entropy tooth and nail every single day.

作为一名高管、一名领导者，你的工作就是每天全力以赴地与熵作斗争。

It means that every time you see a bug, every time you see a bug, not most of the time, every time you go and you drop it at the feet of the product manager or the engineering manager, every time, in public, preferably, it means that every time someone comes to you to hire someone and says that they have skipped the back channel, every time you're like, "You can't hire this person unless you do the back channel," it means that when you get into the board and tired zone on any process, that you as the executive have got to demand the 99th percentile of energy, because otherwise entropy creeps in and the system decays.

这意味着每次你看到一个错误，每次你看到一个错误，不是大多数时候，每次你把它扔到产品经理或工程经理脚下，每次，在公开场合，最好是，这意味着每次有人来找你雇用某人并说他们跳过了后台渠道，每次你会说，“除非你做后台渠道，否则你不能雇用这个人”，这意味着当你进入任何流程的董事会和疲倦区时，你作为高管必须要求 99% 的能量，否则熵会悄悄进入，系统就会衰退。

You have to do this.

你必须这样做。

Matt MacInnis: One of the messages that I delivered recently at our big executive big...

马特·麦金尼斯：我最近在我们的大型高管会议上传达的信息之一......

Like our top 75 manager offsite that we do roughly every 18 months, was a reminder that if the purest form of ambition and the purest and most intense source of energy in the business is the founder CEO, that every next concentric circle of management beyond the founder CEO has the potential to be an order of magnitude drop off in intensity, and that is dangerous because if you go to two layers and it's two orders of magnitude drop off and signal and intensity, that is a very dysfunctional organization.

就像我们大约每 18 个月进行一次的 75 位异地经理一样，这提醒我们，如果企业中最纯粹的野心和最纯粹、最强烈的能量来源是创始人 CEO，那么创始人 CEO 之外的每一个下一个同心圆管理圈都有可能在强度上下降一个数量级，这是危险的，因为如果你进入两层，信号和强度就会下降两个数量级，那就是一个非常功能失调的组织。

So what I say to the team was, it's not that you need to buffer people from the intensity of the CEO, it's that you need to absolutely mirror that intensity.

所以我对团队说的是，并不是你需要缓冲人们免受首席执行官的强度的影响，而是你需要绝对反映这种强度。

Matt MacInnis: There are plenty of constituents in the business around you who will advocate for relaxing.

马特·麦金尼斯：你周围的企业中有很多人都提倡放松。

There is an infinite supply of people under you who will buffer other team members from the intensity of the demands.

你手下有无穷无尽的人员，可以缓冲其他团队成员的需求强度。

Your job is not to be one of those buffers.

你的工作不是成为这些缓冲者之一。

Your job is to preserve that intensity at its highest possible level and let the buffering happen somewhere else, and that's the point is that entropy creeps into the system insidiously and slowly over time off your radar and you have to maintain that intensity every minute of every day to try and fight it if you want to stay at the extreme right end of the power law that obviously governs the outcome of everything that we build.

你的工作就是将这种强度保持在尽可能高的水平，并让缓冲发生在其他地方，而重点是，随着时间的推移，熵会悄悄地、缓慢地从你的雷达上爬进系统，如果你想停留在幂律的最右端，你就必须每天每分钟都保持这种强度，试图与它作斗争，如果你想留在幂律的最右端，幂律显然控制着我们所构建的一切的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: What does that look like to pass along that intensity?

Lenny Rachitsky：传递这种强度是什么样的？

What does that feel like?

那感觉怎么样？

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

So say Parker comes to you, "This bug sucks.

所以说帕克来找你，“这个虫子很糟糕。

I got this broken screen." You cut off your finger.

我的屏幕坏了。”你砍断了你的手指。

Maybe that's the example.

也许这就是例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Still got them.

还是得到了他们。

I got all 10.

10个我都拿到了

Matt MacInnis: I'll give you concrete examples.

马特·麦金尼斯：我会给你举具体的例子。

Actually, the joke that I sort of played on this one when I presented to the team was that the next sort of slide in my presentation was with the sound effect, the Slack huddle thing, and Parker's icon in Slack is just, he uses the generic yellow...

事实上，当我向团队演示时，我在这张幻灯片上开的一个玩笑是，我演示中的下一张幻灯片是带有声音效果的，Slack huddle 的东西，而 Parker 在 Slack 中的图标只是，他使用通用的黄色......

Matt MacInnis: It's funny, and so everybody knows the yellow egg is Parker, and so the next slide in the presentation was boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, which is the sound that Slack makes when someone calls you, and it was Parker Conrad is inviting you to a huddle, and then the next slide was Parker Conrad is modeling personal intensity, and the idea is that if you know, you know, if you've ever been dragged into an...

马特·麦金尼斯：这很有趣，所以每个人都知道黄蛋是帕克，所以演示文稿中的下一张幻灯片是“噗，噗，噗，噗，噗，噗，噗”，这是当有人打电话给你时 Slack 发出的声音，帕克·康拉德邀请你参加一个聚会，然后下一张幻灯片是帕克·康拉德正在模拟个人强度，其想法是，如果你知道，你知道，如果你曾经被拖入其中一个...

"I want to talk about this fucking problem right now and whatever you're doing, unless it's an interview, I want you to come and have a conversation with me."

“我现在想谈谈这个该死的问题，无论你在做什么，除非是采访，我希望你能过来和我谈谈。”

Matt MacInnis: That intensity is one place where it plays out.

马特·麦金尼斯：这种强度是它发挥作用的地方。

Every product team at Rippling, and we have a lot of them now, have public feedback channels.

Rippling 的每个产品团队（我们现在有很多这样的团队）都有公共反馈渠道。

I am in there upside down on everything I find when I use those products, and I just model for everybody that this is how at least I want to do it, which is, "I don't like this.

当我使用这些产品时，我发现的一切都是颠倒的，我只是为每个人树立榜样，这至少是我想做的，也就是说，“我不喜欢这个。

I don't understand this.

我不明白这一点。

Tell me why this is this way." Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and people jump in and respond.

告诉我为什么会这样。”繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣、繁荣，人们纷纷加入并做出反应。

The factory inspection process that I mentioned, which is where at the end of the assembly line, I jump out with the pickle and we talk about all of the elements.

我提到的工厂检查过程，也就是在装配线末端，我带着泡菜跳出来，我们讨论所有的元素。

You have to record a loom of every major flow through the product.

你必须记录织机产品中的每一个主要流程。

I personally review every one of those flows, I got a backlog I got to catch up on today and provide feedback to people always in a public channel so that every other product manager and engineering manager can jump in and see how the process has worked for other teams.

我亲自审查了每一个流程，今天我必须赶上积压的工作，并始终在公共渠道中向人们提供反馈，以便其他每个产品经理和工程经理都可以介入并了解该流程对其他团队的效果如何。

Matt MacInnis: It's about modeling the intensity publicly so that other people can say, "Okay, this is how we do things around here," and it gives the reaction from the team that received the message that you have to inject that energy every minute of every day and that there are no exceptions, was not like, "Ooh, that's exhausting." The reaction is, "Oh, that is so invigorating." It's so wonderful to hear that we're going to achieve these great outcomes, or at least we have a shot at doing so, and that you're empowering me to follow my instinct, which is to really push for the best result.

马特·麦金尼斯：这是关于公开模拟强度，以便其他人可以说，“好吧，这就是我们在这里做事的方式”，它给出了收到信息的团队的反应，即你必须每天每一分钟注入这种能量，没有例外，而不是“哦，这太累了。”人们的反应是：“哦，这太令人振奋了。”很高兴听到我们将取得这些伟大的成果，或者至少我们有机会做到这一点，并且您让我能够遵循我的直觉，即真正推动最好的结果。

Matt MacInnis: The reaction universally is like, "Ugh, what a relief that I get to go be intense," because nobody in a position of leadership wants to be chill, and what's worse than a chill boss?

马特·麦金尼斯：普遍的反应是，“呃，变得紧张了，我真是松了口气”，因为处于领导地位的人都不想保持冷静，还有什么比一个冷漠的老板更糟糕的呢？

No, don't work for a chill boss.

不，不要为冷漠的老板工作。

Don't be a chill boss.

别做一个冷酷的老板。

It's the most pejorative label I could give you.

这是我能给你的最贬义的标签。

Chill boss or chill PM.

让老板冷静或者让PM冷静。

Don't be chill.

别冷淡。

Chill doesn't accomplish shit.

冷静并不能完成任何事情。

Be intense.

要激烈。

Be good, be respectful, be intense.

要善良，要尊重，要热情。

Don't be chill.

别冷淡。

Lenny Rachitsky: Again, this advice comes from where we started, which is this is what success looks like, because somebody that is less chill than you is going to find that crack and come after your market.

Lenny Rachitsky：同样，这个建议来自我们开始的地方，这就是成功的样子，因为比你不冷静的人会发现裂缝并追随你的市场。

Is that the gist?

这是要点吗？

Matt MacInnis: For sure.

马特·麦金尼斯：当然。

I mean, again, if you're chill and you move the X axis down 10 or 20 points, the Y axis collapses.

我的意思是，如果您冷静下来，将 X 轴向下移动 10 或 20 个点，Y 轴就会崩溃。

It doesn't just drop 10 or 20%.

它不只是下降 10% 或 20%。

The Y axis collapses, and this is just kind of true in everything we do.

Y 轴崩溃了，我们所做的一切都是如此。

So yeah, if you want to win, you should probably try.

所以是的，如果你想赢，你应该尝试一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is what I always say to people trying to build lifestyle businesses.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我总是对那些试图建立生活方式企业的人说的话。

There's always this idea, "I'm going to build a side business, I'm going to make recurring income, it's going to be amazing," and in my experience, anytime there's a market or something shows up that's juicy and there's ways to make money, somebody's going to come at you and work harder, raise more money, and there's only so long you can maintain that.

总是有这样的想法，“我要建立一项副业，我要赚取经常性收入，这将是惊人的”，根据我的经验，只要有一个市场或出现一些有趣的东西，并且有赚钱的方法，就会有人来找你，更加努力地工作，筹集更多的钱，而你只能维持这种状态。

Matt MacInnis: Well, man, there's a whole other podcast episode on the concept of leverage.

马特·麦金尼斯：嗯，伙计，还有一整集关于杠杆概念的播客。

If you sell your time, you've only got 24 hours a day to give, but if you can create a product that scales, the marginal cost of a unit of that product is zero like software, it's going to be competitive, man.

如果你卖掉你的时间，你每天只有 24 小时可以奉献，但如果你能创建一个可扩展的产品，该产品的单位边际成本为零，就像软件一样，它就会具有竞争力，伙计。

Sell your time, it's not going to be super competitive, but achieve that level of leverage and it's a pretty efficient market.

出售你的时间，它不会具有超级竞争性，但达到这种杠杆水平，这是一个非常有效的市场。

Lenny Rachitsky: To close out this thread of intensity and adding energy to everything, something I've heard about you is you're big on escalating.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这条紧张的线索并为一切增添能量，我听说你热衷于升级。

You're a big fan of escalating issues, and also you always tell people to never not give you negative feedback, to always share feedback to not hide anything.

您热衷于不断升级问题，而且您总是告诉人们永远不要不给您负面反馈，要始终分享反馈而不是隐瞒任何事情。

Tell me about those two.

告诉我关于这两个人的事。

Matt MacInnis: Fundamentally, the most selfish thing you can do is withhold feedback from someone.

马特·麦金尼斯：从根本上来说，你能做的最自私的事情就是拒绝别人的反馈。

Who are you optimizing for when you do that?

当你这样做时，你是在为谁优化？

What are you optimizing for when you think a thought that would help someone improve and you avoid giving it to them because it would make you uncomfortable?

当你认为一个想法可以帮助某人进步，但你避免将其提供给他们，因为这会让你感到不舒服时，你在优化什么？

Well, you're optimizing for your own comfort and it's fundamentally selfish.

好吧，你正在为了自己的舒适而优化，这从根本上来说是自私的。

It's the most selfish thing you could possibly do, is withhold feedback that would otherwise be useful to someone because you don't want to be uncomfortable.

这是你可能做的最自私的事情，就是拒绝提供对某人有用的反馈，因为你不想让别人感到不舒服。

Well, that's not how high performance teams operate.

嗯，这不是高绩效团队的运作方式。

So I demand feedback, and I give it, and it doesn't mean that when I give feedback, it's not open to being questioned or discussed.

所以我要求反馈，并且我给出反馈，但这并不意味着当我给出反馈时，它不会被质疑或讨论。

I mean, of course it is, but when I observe something, I try to say it.

我的意思是，当然是这样，但是当我观察到某些事情时，我会尝试说出来。

That's the feedback topic.

这就是反馈主题。

Matt MacInnis: The part of this that has been interesting to me is that people withhold, escalate, the customers withhold.

马特·麦金尼斯：我感兴趣的部分是人们拒绝、升级、客户拒绝。

Customers don't want to escalate to me as an executive.

客户不想向我这个高管升级。

Even the founders in whose businesses I've invested who use Rippling are reluctant to hit me up when something goes wrong because they don't want to bother me, but it's literally my job, literally my job to find things, problems, and make them better, and by virtue of making those specific things better, to iterate on the processes so that the system that builds the system can get better.

即使是我投资的企业使用 Rippling 的创始人也不愿意在出现问题时找我，因为他们不想打扰我，但这实际上是我的工作，实际上是我的工作，就是发现事物、问题，并使它们变得更好，并凭借使这些特定的事物变得更好，迭代流程，以便构建系统的系统能够变得更好。

Matt MacInnis: There's no greater gift to me as a product executive than receiving an escalation from a customer.

马特·麦金尼斯：作为一名产品主管，对于我来说，没有什么比收到客户的升级更棒的礼物了。

We have an escalations team at Rippling, which sounds weird, but it's people who are just particularly skilled at pistol whipping other people in the company to get to real root causes, real root causes.

我们在 Rippling 有一个升级团队，这听起来很奇怪，但这些人特别擅长用手枪鞭打公司的其他人，以找出真正的根本原因。

Not like throw away the word root cause, like, "Oh, we fixed the data error and shut the ticket down." No, you went and you found the software that created the data error, and then you found the system that created the software that created the data error, and you solved all of that back to the top.

不像扔掉根本原因这个词，比如“哦，我们修复了数据错误并关闭了票证。”不，你找到了造成数据错误的软件，然后你找到了创建了造成数据错误的软件的系统，然后你就解决了所有这些问题，回到顶部。

Matt MacInnis: Escalation seems extremely good at that at Rippling.

Matt MacInnis：Rippling 似乎非常擅长升级。

So we have sort of a dedicated little team that does this for us.

所以我们有一个专门的小团队为我们做这件事。

Escalations are a gift, and it's like, if you're a listener right now on this podcast and you are a Rippling customer and you have shit that you think we should know, the fact that I might already know it is not a reason for you to withhold the gift of your feedback.

升级是一份礼物，就像，如果你现在是这个播客的听众，并且你是 Rippling 的客户，你有一些你认为我们应该知道的事情，事实上我可能已经知道了，这并不是你拒绝提供反馈礼物的理由。

So it's an attitude that I take to this every day.

所以这是我每天对此采取的态度。

I've got a little cue of some stuff that I've...

我对一些事情有一点线索...

Minor things that are from the last couple of days from people who had some knits and issues that I'm just like, I've got them queued up on my to do list today and I'm going to take them to the product teams directly and be like, "I'd like to understand what happened here." Not in a negative way.

过去几天发生的一些小事情，来自那些有一些针织品和问题的人，我就像这样，我已经把它们列在我今天的待办事项清单上，我将直接把它们带到产品团队，然后说，“我想了解这里发生了什么。”不是以消极的方式。

I just think we'll all get better if we study this one, and so yeah, escalations are a gift, feedback like that is a gift, and nobody is ever inconveniencing me when they do it.

我只是认为，如果我们研究这个问题，我们都会变得更好，所以是的，升级是一份礼物，这样的反馈也是一份礼物，而且没有人在这样做时给我带来不便。

Lenny Rachitsky: For people that are listening to this and feeling like, "Man, this is so stressful and intense and just like, I don't know if I want to work this way," give them a sense of just how successful Rippling is.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些听了这个并感觉“伙计，这太有压力和紧张，就像，我不知道我是否想以这种方式工作”的人来说，让他们感受到 Ripple 是多么成功。

I think a lot of people may not even have heard of Rippling.

我想很多人可能根本没有听说过Ripple。

A lot of people are like, "Yeah, it's doing great." What are some things you can share that are public or not public that give people a sense of just how massive this business has become?

很多人都会说：“是的，做得很好。”您可以分享哪些公开或非公开的内容，让人们了解这个业务的规模有多大？

Matt MacInnis: People look at Rippling from the outside, I think they think of us as payroll and HR or whatever, which is cool.

Matt MacInnis：人们从外部看待 Rippling，我认为他们认为我们是薪资和人力资源或其他什么，这很酷。

It's a bit like saying Microsoft is a desktop operating system company or it's like every company starts from somewhere.

这有点像说微软是一家桌面操作系统公司，或者就像每个公司都是从某个地方开始的一样。

Matt MacInnis: ...

马特·麦金尼斯：...

system company or ...

系统公司或...

It's like every company starts from somewhere and grows out from there.

就像每家公司都是从某个地方开始并从那里发展起来的。

We see ourselves as building the most successful business software platform in history.

我们认为自己正在构建历史上最成功的商业软件平台。

In fact, that's the mission statement of our product organization under the umbrella of the mission statement of the company, which is to free smart people to work on hard problems.

事实上，这就是我们产品组织在公司使命宣言的框架下的使命宣言，即让聪明的人有时间去解决难题。

And when you translate that from where we are today to where we think we're taking things, it's like we really do believe that the core of every workflow and everything that a company has to do, be it AI or manual traditional GUI based software, is who's doing stuff, who owns it, who's accountable?

当你把它从我们今天所处的位置转化为我们认为我们正在做的事情时，就好像我们真的相信每个工作流程和公司必须做的一切的核心，无论是人工智能还是基于手动传统 GUI 的软件，是谁在做事情，谁拥有它，谁负责？

And so the people record is a really important component of that.

因此，人员记录是其中非常重要的组成部分。

You can argue that the customer record's also very important.

您可以说客户记录也非常重要。

And of course some big businesses have been built on that primitive as well, but we think the people primitive is actually much more important.

当然，一些大企业也建立在这个原语的基础上，但我们认为人的原语实际上更重要。

Matt MacInnis: And that the only thing that hasn't been done here is somebody hasn't been ambitious enough to build a good business on top of that primitive.

马特·麦金尼斯：这里唯一没有做的事情是有人没有足够的雄心在这个原始基础上建立一个好的业务。

Workday is terrible software.

Workday 是个糟糕的软件。

Everybody agrees on that.

大家都同意这一点。

I think Workday agrees on that.

我认为 Workday 也同意这一点。

Good luck to them.

祝他们好运。

But they have failed actually, despite their success, to build a really broad general purpose software platform for business software on the foundation of the people primitive.

但尽管他们取得了成功，但实际上他们未能在人本原的基础上为商业软件构建一个真正广泛的通用软件平台。

So we're going to do that.

所以我们要这么做。

Matt MacInnis: And we're successful because we deliver on that promise at the scale we're at today.

马特·麦金尼斯：我们之所以成功，是因为我们以今天的规模兑现了这一承诺。

The fact that you can do ...

事实是你可以做...

and this is not a sales pitch or sort of like an advertisement for Rippling.

这并不是一种销售宣传，也不是 Rippling 的广告。

I just think it's important to sort of contemplate that when you bring together a bunch of disparate business processes into one system on a common business data graph, an object graph, a data lake with a consistent interface, you can do some pretty magical things.

我只是认为重要的是要考虑一下，当您将一堆不同的业务流程整合到一个公共业务数据图、对象图、具有一致接口的数据湖上的系统中时，您可以做一些非常神奇的事情。

Matt MacInnis: So we do payroll, we do HCM, we do IT, we do spend.

Matt MacInnis：所以我们做工资、我们做 HCM、我们做 IT、我们做支出。

We are about to launch a new product in the category of business intelligence and data management.

我们即将推出商业智能和数据管理类别的新产品。

And there's a whole bunch of other stuff coming beyond that.

除此之外还有一大堆其他的东西。

And then you layer in AI on top of this, where we alone, where we alone have all of your business data organized into this nice, neat package with a beautiful semantic layer on top of it.

然后你在人工智能之上分层，我们独自将你的所有业务数据组织到这个漂亮、整洁的包中，并在其顶部有一个漂亮的语义层。

The AI can work magic.

人工智能可以发挥魔法。

And we have shipped nothing, nothing yet in this category that I would say gets anywhere near what we're going to show next year.

我们还没有发货任何东西，我想说在这个类别中还没有任何东西可以接近我们明年将要展示的东西。

And it is going to set the standard.

它将设定标准。

It is going to be the most ...

这将是最...

The back flips that the AI is doing reading and writing data for the user just on our internal use cases at Rippling is jaw dropping.

令人惊讶的是，人工智能正在为用户读取和写入数据，而这只是在我们 Rippling 的内部用例中进行的。

So I'm super excited about the tailwind this is going to create for us.

因此，我对这将为我们带来的顺风感到非常兴奋。

Matt MacInnis: You ask about what can I share about the success of the company?

马特·麦金尼斯：你问我可以分享关于公司成功的哪些内容？

What I can say, there are tens of thousands of companies that now run on Rippling.

我可以说，现在有数以万计的公司在 Rippling 上运行。

We're less than 1% of the market.

我们的市场份额还不到 1%。

And the market cap at 16 billion, I think now undervalues where we are from a revenue perspective by a long shot.

我认为，从收入角度来看，160 亿美元的市值现在远远低估了我们的价值。

There is just so much upside to do what we're doing.

我们正在做的事情有很多好处。

And SaaS might be dead-ish in terms of point solutions, but long live SaaS in terms of what we're building.

就点解决方案而言，SaaS 可能已经死了，但就我们正在构建的内容而言，SaaS 却是长寿的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow that thread in AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我关注人工智能中的这条线索。

There's been a lot of talk about AI is going to replace SaaS, as you maybe just said.

正如您刚才所说，关于人工智能将取代 SaaS 的讨论很多。

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

People are going to vibe code their way to their payroll system, which I ...

人们将通过振动编码进入他们的工资系统，我......

good luck to the employees of those companies.

祝这些公司的员工好运。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so what I'm hearing here is that you actually do believe a lot of SaaS companies that are selling individual solutions are in big trouble.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我在这里听到的是，您确实相信许多销售单独解决方案的 SaaS 公司遇到了大麻烦。

The answer implied here is this kind of compound startup idea of you need to do a lot of things for people for them to continue to pay for your software.

这里隐含的答案是这种复合的启动理念，即你需要为人们做很多事情，让他们继续为你的软件付费。

Is that the gist?

这是要点吗？

Matt MacInnis: No. I think the gist is ...

马特·麦金尼斯：不。我认为要点是......

there's a really good quote.

有一个非常好的报价。

I forget who it's attributable to, but it's, "There's two ways to make money in software, bundling and unbundling." And you just got to get the timing right.

我忘记了是谁说的，但它是，“软件赚钱有两种方法，捆绑和分拆。”你只需要把握好时机。

So this is a period of bundling.

所以这是一个捆绑的时期。

So here's the problem; point solutions don't have enough data in the age of AI to be useful.

所以问题来了；在人工智能时代，单点解决方案没有足够的数据来发挥作用。

You got to be able to provide the AI with a lot of context about a lot of data so it can do things.

你必须能够为人工智能提供大量数据的大量背景信息，以便它能够做一些事情。

It can do joins.

它可以做连接。

It can do correlations.

它可以做相关性。

Matt MacInnis: And so if you're a point solution, you're in hard water because you've got to now rely on data from other sources.

马特·麦金尼斯：因此，如果您是单点解决方案，那么您就会陷入困境，因为您现在必须依赖其他来源的数据。

You've got to integrate to third party systems.

您必须集成到第三方系统。

And when you integrate to a third party system, even the best ones are still sort of drinking their data through a straw, which is a real problem.

当您集成到第三方系统时，即使是最好的系统仍然是通过吸管饮用数据，这是一个真正的问题。

I mean, the biggest HCM software company you can think of integrates to the other biggest payroll software company you can think of through flat files via SFTP.

我的意思是，您能想到的最大的 HCM 软件公司通过 SFTP 通过平面文件与您能想到的另一家最大的薪资软件公司集成。

What are they going to do?

他们要做什么？

What are they going to do?

他们要做什么？

It's just never going to work.

这是永远行不通的。

It's just no way.

就是没办法。

And so I literally have no idea what they're going to do.

所以我真的不知道他们要做什么。

They're just not going to build AI software, I guess.

我猜他们只是不会构建人工智能软件。

Point SaaS is sort of in a rough spot, especially when you cleave two really important systems apart and say they have to integrate.

Point SaaS 有点陷入困境，尤其是当你将两个非常重要的系统分开并说它们必须集成时。

It's very, very hard.

这非常非常难。

Matt MacInnis: The other thing that I would say about the world of, even just like not SaaS, but AI software is that point solutions in the AI world are also in a rough spot for the same reason.

马特·麦金尼斯：关于人工智能软件的世界，我想说的另一件事是，即使不是 SaaS，人工智能软件也因同样的原因而陷入困境。

It's like if you're selling the shovels like OpenAI and Google with Gemini, you can make money.

就像如果你用 Gemini 卖 OpenAI 和 Google 这样的铲子，你就能赚钱。

And if you own the mine, like Rippling, with the data, you can make money.

如果你拥有矿场，就像 Rippling 一样，拥有数据，你就可以赚钱。

If you're somewhere in the middle, building AI software that then tries to use the shovels from the shovel provider, but then also needs to rent out the mine, or get the ore out of somebody else's mind and start refining it, you're in a very difficult place from an economic standpoint.

如果你处于中间位置，构建人工智能软件，然后尝试使用铲子提供商的铲子，但随后还需要出租矿山，或者将矿石从其他人的脑海中剔除并开始精炼，从经济角度来看，你正处于一个非常困难的境地。

Because you're not going to be permitted by either of those parties to build a big business on their backs.

因为这两方都不会允许你在他们的支持下建立一个大企业。

Matt MacInnis: That's just not how it's going to work.

马特·麦金尼斯：事情不是这样的。

They're going to demand value capture that crushes your unit economics.

他们会要求获取价值，这会破坏你的单位经济效益。

So I look at the landscape of AI companies that I've seen and I think you have to have a really durable, interesting insight that gives you a shot at viable unit economics to be an interesting business.

因此，我审视了我所见过的人工智能公司的情况，我认为你必须拥有真正持久、有趣的洞察力，让你有机会获得可行的单位经济效益，从而成为一家有趣的企业。

And that is going to kill off 80 or 90% of the stuff that I see right now as standalone AI businesses.

这将消灭我目前认为独立的人工智能业务的 80% 或 90%。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing here ...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我在这里听到的是......

I love that you correct me when I get these things wrong, and that's exactly what I want.

我喜欢当我做错事情时你纠正我，这正是我想要的。

What I'm hearing is it's less about how difficult it is to build the SaaS product.

我听到的是，这与构建 SaaS 产品有多困难无关。

It's about, do you have first party data that allows you to build an incredible AI product on top of what you've got?

问题是，你是否拥有第一方数据，可以让你在现有数据的基础上构建令人难以置信的人工智能产品？

Matt MacInnis: Yep.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

Because look, SaaS software is a bit flipping.

因为看起来，SaaS 软件有点翻转。

All SaaS software applications are bit flippers.

所有 SaaS 软件应用程序都是比特翻转器。

It's an interface changing-

这是一个界面改变-

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

Changing values in your database, that's what it does.

更改数据库中的值，这就是它的作用。

It's a really hard problem.

这确实是一个很难的问题。

One of Rippling's superpowers is we're a coin sorter.

Rippling 的超能力之一是我们是硬币分类员。

You dump $20,000 for an employee in the top of the coin sorter, and it figures out what goes to the government, what goes to health insurance, what goes to your 401k, what goes to you.

你把 20,000 美元给一名员工，扔到硬币分类机的顶部，它会计算出哪些归政府，哪些归健康保险，哪些归你的 401k，哪些归你。

And it has to move all that money very, very reliably and seamlessly, very challenging software to build and manage.

它必须非常非常可靠和无缝地转移所有资金，构建和管理软件非常具有挑战性。

What's it doing?

它在做什么？

Even that is just flipping bits in a database.

即使这只是翻转数据库中的位。

And so AI is a new way to flip bits.

因此，人工智能是一种翻转位的新方法。

AI is just a new way to flip bits.

人工智能只是一种翻转位的新方法。

Hopefully a way that abstracts us a little bit further from having to think because our future is Wally.

希望这种方式能让我们更加抽象，不再需要思考，因为我们的未来是沃利。

It's going to be great.

会很棒的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of Wally, actually, I have this Matic Robot.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到 Wally，实际上，我有这个 Matic 机器人。

You have one of these?

你有其中之一吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: No. It's like a self-driving car robot, basically, a self-driving car.

Lenny Rachitsky：不。它就像一个自动驾驶汽车机器人，基本上是一辆自动驾驶汽车。

People built this robot that cleans your house.

人们建造了这个机器人来打扫你的房子。

Maybe I didn't mention that.

也许我没有提到这一点。

It's like a house cleaning robot that just goes around.

它就像一个四处走动的房屋清洁机器人。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like a Roomba.

Lenny Rachitsky：它就像 Roomba。

You should have one.

你应该拥有一个。

They're expensive, but incredibly cool.

它们很贵，但非常酷。

And actually in Wally, there's a scene where they actually have basically what these things look like.

实际上，在《沃利》中，有一个场景，他们实际上基本上拥有这些东西的样子。

So it's not so far-fetched for that movie.

所以这部电影并不是那么牵强。

Matt MacInnis: I definitely was actually quite prescient, perhaps with the exception of the gravity defying day beds.

马特·麦金尼斯：我确实很有先见之明，也许除了反重力沙发床之外。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I don't know, but that's not good news.

我不知道，但这不是个好消息。

You've seen that movie.

你看过那部电影。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

So on this AI stuff, which I'm hearing is we're going to see a lot more consolidation where these point solution companies realize they need this data.

因此，在人工智能方面，我听说我们将看到更多的整合，这些单点解决方案公司意识到他们需要这些数据。

This is existential, and they're going to combine and merge and bundle, as you described?

这是存在主义的，他们将结合、合并和捆绑，正如你所描述的那样？

Matt MacInnis: I am not an investigator on this stuff.

马特·麦金尼斯：我不是这件事的调查员。

I think there's some really interesting investors out there who I think are thinking quite deeply about this.

我认为有一些非常有趣的投资者正在深入思考这个问题。

And in particular, the conviction, which is like Mike Fornell and Sarah Guo.

尤其是信念，就像迈克·福内尔和莎拉·郭一样。

I think those are two investors who are hyper focused on AI.

我认为这两位投资者非常关注人工智能。

And when they made the decision to take that approach, at the time I thought that's kind of narrow.

当他们决定采取这种方法时，当时我认为这有点狭隘。

Now I'm like, no, no, no, that was the right move.

现在我想，不，不，不，这是正确的举动。

And it just means that they have a very deep, deep, deep set of hypotheses that they've formed over the course of seeing every AI deal in the valley.

这只是意味着他们在看到硅谷的每一笔人工智能交易的过程中形成了一套非常深、深、深的假设。

And there are better people to ask this question of than I am.

有比我更好的人来问这个问题。

And I think if you're an entrepreneur, I recommend them to you because I think they're really smart.

我认为如果你是一名企业家，我会向你推荐他们，因为我认为他们真的很聪明。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love those guys.

我爱那些家伙。

Also, Sarah and Elad have a podcast called No Priors that I'd also recommend.

另外，Sarah 和 Elad 有一个名为 No Priors 的播客，我也推荐它。

We'll point it to you in the show notes.

我们会在演出笔记中向您指出。

So on this AI note, I guess is there anything else that you think would be really helpful for founders that are working in this space building an AI startup to hear they think you were seeing of like, here's what you need to do to win in an AI company?

所以在这篇人工智能笔记上，我想还有什么你认为对在这个领域工作、建立人工智能初创公司的创始人来说真正有帮助的事情吗？听听他们认为你看到的是这样的，这是你需要做的事情才能在人工智能公司获胜？

Matt MacInnis: So much.

马特·麦金尼斯：就这么多。

I actually think that if I were to give you an answer to this question right now, it would be bullshit.

事实上，我认为如果我现在就给你回答这个问题，那就是胡说八道。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't have anything ...

我什么都没有...

Back to my point earlier, I don't have enough relevant experience in the abstract to dole out on a podcast on that topic, but I wish them luck.

回到我之前的观点，我没有足够的抽象相关经验来发布有关该主题的播客，但我祝他们好运。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Circling back to your advice, don't ask for advice, ask for a relevant experience.

回到你的建议，不要寻求建议，要寻求相关的经验。

And I love that that's where your mind immediately went.

我喜欢你的思绪立刻就到了那里。

I'm going to take us to AI Quarter, which is a recurring segment on this podcast.

我将带我们去 AI Quarter，这是这个播客中反复出现的部分。

And the question is just what's one way you've found AI to be useful in your work day-to-day?

问题是，您发现人工智能在日常工作中发挥作用的一种方式是什么？

Is there something that you found it unlocked in how you work?

在你的工作方式中，有什么东西是你发现解锁的吗？

Matt MacInnis: I mean, it's not a super exciting thing, but I'll say where I use ...

马特·麦金尼斯：我的意思是，这不是一件超级令人兴奋的事情，但我会说我在哪里使用......

So one of the most important functions that I perform as an executive is the synthesis of ideas, and the ability to communicate those ideas very clearly to people.

因此，作为一名高管，我所履行的最重要的职能之一就是综合想法，以及将这些想法非常清晰地传达给人们的能力。

So when I talk about the product quality list and the pickle, as something that we've come up with internally, I do turn to AI, ChatGPT and Gemini, where I take a really, let's say, angular view of some topic and I give ...

因此，当我谈论产品质量列表和泡菜时，作为我们内部提出的东西，我确实转向人工智能、ChatGPT 和 Gemini，在那里我对某个主题采取了真正的角度观点，并且我给出了......

really, I write the essay for the AI and I'm like, "Look, this is the crisp idea I want to communicate.

真的，我为人工智能写这篇文章，我想，“看，这就是我想要传达的清晰想法。

Help me come up with pithy ways to articulate these things." And 80% of what it outputs is trash.

帮助我想出简洁的方法来阐明这些事情。”它输出的80%都是垃圾。

It's just sort of middle of the road, average, low alpha junk.

它只是一种中庸之道，平均水平，低阿尔法垃圾。

Matt MacInnis: But it is a thought partner, a non-judgemental thought partner where in 20% of the stuff it comes out with, I'm like, yeah, it's pretty good.

马特·麦金尼斯：但它是一个思想伙伴，一个不带评判性的思想伙伴，在它带来的 20% 的东西中，我觉得，是的，它非常好。

That's a new word I didn't think of.

这是我没想到的新词。

That does kind of hit the nail on the head for this concept.

这确实击中了这个概念的要害。

And so if I believe that my job is to sort of bring brains along on the journey for some sort of change that I'm trying to bring about, then the most important tool is language.

因此，如果我相信我的工作是带着大脑一起踏上我试图带来的某种改变的旅程，那么最重要的工具就是语言。

And I do find that the ChatGPT and Gemini do a great job of helping me refine how to articulate the concepts that I want to articulate.

我确实发现 ChatGPT 和 Gemini 在帮助我完善如何阐明我想要阐明的概念方面做得很好。

They are not useful in coming up with the ideas themselves.

他们本身对于提出想法没有用处。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。

I don't know if you've played with Claude much, but I actually find Claude is better at writing and words and language.

我不知道你是否经常和克劳德一起玩，但我实际上发现克劳德更擅长写作、文字和语言。

Matt MacInnis: I have not spent a lot of time with Claude.

马特·麦金尼斯：我和克劳德在一起的时间不多。

I have used it, but by virtue of this conversation, I'll probably go give it a go.

我已经使用过它，但通过这次谈话，我可能会去尝试一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

Yeah.

是的。

They're all great, but there's something about Claude that is just at writing specifically is much better, but they're all getting better all the time.

他们都很棒，但克劳德在写作方面要好得多，但他们都在不断进步。

There's always something new.

总是有新的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, we've covered so much ground.

Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，我们已经讨论了很多内容。

We've touched on everything I was hoping to touch on.

我们已经触及了我希望触及的一切。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you were hoping to share or anything else you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with?

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么希望分享的，或者您想触及或留给听众的其他内容吗？

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

We've spent a lot of time talking about intensity and the grind, and the need to just always be operating at the 99th percentile.

我们花了很多时间讨论强度和磨砺，以及始终保持在 99% 的必要性。

And I think if you listen to that in a vacuum, it's very easy to believe that that intensity is soul crushing, that it's a negative, that it's maybe not something that you want.

我认为，如果你在真空中聆听，很容易相信这种强度是灵魂的毁灭，它是消极的，它可能不是你想要的东西。

And I think there's a backstop for me that I didn't talk about today that I think is important to share, which is that life is amazing.

我认为对我来说，有一个我今天没有谈论的支撑点，我认为很重要的是要分享，那就是生活是令人惊奇的。

That the fact that we all exist on this blue marble drifting through space and time, that we are some weird instantiation of consciousness, each of us, and that you're here for such a short period of time whittling your stick, doing something, that if you remember how insignificant we are and all of this is, it brings this levity to what we do and to the work we put into building this.

事实上，我们都存在于这块蓝色大理石上，在时空中漂流，我们每个人都是意识的某种奇怪的实例，而你在这里的时间很短，削你的棍子，做一些事情，如果你记得我们是多么微不足道，而这一切是多么的微不足道，它给我们所做的事情和我们为建设这个世界所投入的工作带来了这种轻松感。

Matt MacInnis: Because Silicon Valley in 2025 is Florence and the Renaissance.

马特·麦金尼斯：因为 2025 年的硅谷就是佛罗伦萨和文艺复兴。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

The amount of creativity and insane invention and progress that's happening for our species right now in this place is absolutely unparalleled in all human history.

我们这个物种现在在这个地方发生的创造力、疯狂的发明和进步的数量在整个人类历史上绝对是无与伦比的。

You've got to zoom out and appreciate that magic.

你必须缩小并欣赏这种魔力。

And so then you turn around and you're like, fuck, I've got to work on Friday night, right?

然后你转过身来，你说，操，我周五晚上还得工作，对吧？

I've got to go give it my all.

我必须全力以赴。

I've got to go compete in the arena of business.

我必须去商业领域竞争。

Matt MacInnis: You have to never forget that number one, none of this matters.

马特·麦金尼斯：你永远不能忘记第一，这些都不重要。

And number two, it is an absolutely beautiful and amazing phenomenon that we get to be alive doing this right now.

第二，我们现在能活着做这件事绝对是一个美丽而令人惊奇的现象。

So play the sport, play it with everything you've got, but never forget that it's just a sport and that none of it matters.

所以，参加这项运动，尽你所能，但永远不要忘记，这只是一项运动，一切都不重要。

I think it's super important as a counterpoint to the intensity that we talked about.

我认为这与我们讨论的强度相对应是非常重要的。

Matt MacInnis: I think about Pale Blue Dot, Carl Sagan's whole thing.

马特·麦金尼斯：我想到了《淡蓝点》，卡尔·萨根的全部作品。

Just a stunning photograph that literally changed the way I think about who I am as a person when I saw it.

只是一张令人惊叹的照片，当我看到它时，它确实改变了我对自己的看法。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, going in a completely different direction, with that, Matt, we reached our very exciting lighting round.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，朝着完全不同的方向前进，马特，我们到达了非常令人兴奋的照明回合。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right, five questions for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Matt MacInnis: Okay.

马特·麦金尼斯：好的。

Two or three books.

两三本书。

You give me a heads-up on this.

你给我提个醒。

So one book is Conscious Business.

所以有一本书是《意识商业》。

I don't have Conscious Business in front of me because it's actually at the office because we have Conscious Business Reading Club at Rippling.

我面前没有《Conscious Business》，因为它实际上是在办公室，因为我们在 Rippling 有 Conscious Business 阅读俱乐部。

And every member of my current, my product leadership team is going through this right now, Conscious Business, Fred Kofman.

我现在的产品领导团队的每一位成员现在都在经历这个，Conscious Business，Fred Kofman。

It's been used in many businesses, LinkedIn most notably, as a framework for thinking about ...

它已被许多企业使用，尤其是 LinkedIn，作为思考的框架......

effectively, it's a user manual for human beings.

实际上，它是人类的用户手册。

So if you are a leader, a manager, an executive, whatever, particularly younger people in their 20s and 30s who are just sort of getting the hang of being a CEO or a product leader for the first time, this book is absolute fucking gold.

因此，如果你是一名领导者、一名经理、一名高管，无论是什么，尤其是20多岁和30多岁的年轻人，他们刚刚第一次掌握如何成为首席执行官或产品领导者，那么这本书绝对是黄金。

It was recommended to me by Bryan Schreier at Sequoia when he was on my board at my previous company.

这是红杉资本的 Bryan Schreier 向我推荐的，当时他是我之前公司的董事会成员。

I took way too long to take him up on the advice, wished I had read it sooner.

我花了太长时间才接受他的建议，真希望我早点读到它。

Highly recommend Conscious Business.

强烈推荐有意识的商业。

Changes your life.

改变你的生活。

Matt MacInnis: Number two, Thinking in Systems, Donna Meadows.

马特·麦金尼斯（Matt MacInnis）：第二，系统思考，唐娜·梅多斯（Donna Meadows）。

I always mispronounce her name, Donella Meadows.

我总是念错她的名字，多内拉·梅多斯。

She died partway through writing this manuscript.

她在写这篇手稿的过程中去世了。

Her fellow professors picked it up and finished it for her.

她的教授同事们拿起它并为她完成了它。

It is the best generic framework for thinking about how systems work.

它是思考系统如何工作的最佳通用框架。

You will extrapolate from this book to every aspect of your life after you read it.

读完这本书后，你会从这本书中推断出你生活的各个方面。

Matt MacInnis: And then the third is classic 1960s, The Effective Executive.

马特·麦金尼斯：第三本是 20 世纪 60 年代的经典著作《高效执行官》。

It's an anachronism.

这是不合时宜的。

It uses weird pronouns for the secretary and the executive.

它使用奇怪的代词来称呼秘书和行政人员。

I'll let you guess which ones.

我会让你猜一下是哪些。

But the book itself is so chock-full of simple enduring advice on how to be effective at leading teams.

但这本书本身充满了关于如何有效领导团队的简单而持久的建议。

And the good shit is the stuff that's been in print for 70 years, and that's one of them.

好东西是已经印刷了 70 年的东西，这就是其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。

I love the first one is you don't have it because you're using it with your team constantly.

我喜欢第一个，因为你没有它，因为你的团队经常使用它。

You mentioned at one point before we started recording, you have eight copies of that book that you just give out to everyone.

在我们开始录制之前，您曾经提到过，您有八本那本书，您只是分发给每个人。

Matt MacInnis: Yeah, and we handed out like candy.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的，我们像糖果一样分发。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Matt MacInnis: Yeah.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的。

So I'm a little embarrassed by this answer, but I'm going to be honest.

所以我对这个答案有点尴尬，但我会说实话。

Matt MacInnis: There's a new series called Heated Rivalry and it's about ...

马特·麦金尼斯：有一个新系列叫做“激烈的竞争”，它是关于......

I'm Canadian and I'm gay.

我是加拿大人，而且我是同性恋。

So it's about two hockey players.

这是关于两个曲棍球运动员的。

In Canada, rivals between the Bruins and the Maple Leafs, although they don't use those names, who are just heated rivals on the ice.

在加拿大，棕熊队和枫叶队之间的对手，虽然他们不使用这些名字，但他们只是冰上的激烈对手。

And it's a huge thing that the world is watching, but actually they're secretly in love with each other and they start hooking up.

这是全世界都在关注的一件大事，但实际上他们暗恋着对方，并且开始勾搭。

And it's been labeled by the media as smutty but delightful.

它被媒体贴上“肮脏但令人愉快”的标签。

And I would say that's accurate.

我想说这是准确的。

So it might not be for everybody, but it is a smash hit right now.

所以它可能不适合所有人，但它现在很受欢迎。

It's on HBO Max and Crave, and it's only six episodes.

它在 HBO Max 和 Crave 上播出，而且只有六集。

But like I said, a little embarrassing because it's a little chintzy, but it's a lot of fun.

但就像我说的，有点尴尬，因为它有点简陋，但它很有趣。

It's also really fun to see gay people represented in the media as though they're normal, and it's fun.

看到同性恋者在媒体上表现得像正常人一样，这也很有趣，这很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: And soon to be on Netflix with the acquisition if that goes through.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果收购成功的话，很快就会在 Netflix 上播出。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's crazy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Matt MacInnis: My Fellow coffee maker.

马特·麦金尼斯：我的咖啡师伙伴。

I love my Fellow coffee maker.

我喜欢我的同伴咖啡机。

It's got an interface that lets you set light, medium, dark roast.

它有一个界面，可以让你设置浅度、中度、深度烘焙。

It changes the temperature.

它改变温度。

It blooms the coffee.

它让咖啡开花。

It tells you how many grams of coffee to put into the basket, slick interface, high quality coffee.

它告诉您篮子里要放入多少克咖啡，界面光滑，咖啡品质高。

It's definitely awesome.

这绝对是太棒了。

And so I have Ashley have one in the office and one at home and one in the garage.

所以我让阿什利在办公室放了一台，在家里放了一台，在车库里放了一台。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

That is a favorite product.

那是最喜欢的产品。

You have three of them in the same cool space.

你们三个在同一个凉爽的空间里。

Matt MacInnis: Fellow is also a Rippling customer and that's a nice side effect when we get to ...

Matt MacInnis：Fellow 也是 Rippling 的客户，当我们……时，这是一个很好的副作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Have they ever escalated anything to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们有向你升级过任何事情吗？

Matt MacInnis: No. If you're listening and you're from Fellow, I want to hear all your gripes.

马特·麦金尼斯：不。如果你在听并且你来自 Fellow，我想听听你所有的抱怨。

Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to often in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常在工作或生活中提及？

Matt MacInnis: It's a dark one, and I'll share this one sort of partially for the humor of it, but it's actually sometimes useful immediately.

马特·麦金尼斯（Matt MacInnis）：这是一本黑暗的书，我会部分地分享它，因为它很幽默，但它实际上有时会立即有用。

At least it's sort of a moment of smiling when it happens.

至少，当它发生时，那是一种微笑的时刻。

The motto comes from my dad who said, "Matt, nothing's ever so bad in life that it couldn't get worse." And it's like we were going through some shit yesterday at work and we were like, "Fuck, now that happened." And I looked at the CTO and I'm like, "Dude, nothing's ever so bad that it couldn't get worse." And we had a good laugh and continued to brace for whatever might come next.

这句座右铭来自我父亲，他说：“马特，生活中没有什么事情会变得更糟。”就像我们昨天在工作中经历了一些糟糕的事情一样，我们就像，“操，现在发生了。”我看着首席技术官，心想，“伙计，没有什么事情会变得更糟了。”我们笑得很开心，并继续为接下来可能发生的事情做好准备。

So not exactly uplifting, but fun to use.

因此，虽然不完全令人振奋，但使用起来很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, it is uplifting.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，这是令人振奋的。

I'm an optimist and I find myself thinking that often with my wife just like, "It could be worse.

我是一个乐观主义者，我发现自己经常对我的妻子这样想：“情况可能会更糟。

It could be worse than this.

情况可能比这更糟糕。

" Definitely.

“当然。

It's actually .

其实是。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's enjoy this less worse version.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我们享受这个不那么糟糕的版本。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

Something you shared with me is that you were a DJ when you were a younger person.

你和我分享的一件事是，你年轻时曾是一名 DJ。

Can you just give us a little DJ voice to give people a sense of your skills?

你能为我们提供一点 DJ 声音，让人们了解一下你的技能吗？

Matt MacInnis: Well, so first of all, it's not DJ, Lenny.

马特·麦金尼斯：嗯，首先，这不是 DJ，莱尼。

It's radio personality.

这是电台名人。

And yeah, I used to do the greatest hits of all time with hits from the '60s, the '70s, the '80s, and a little bit of the '90s, 101.5 The Hawk.

是的，我曾经演奏过有史以来最伟大的歌曲，包括 60 年代、70 年代、80 年代的歌曲，还有一点 90 年代的歌曲《101.5 The Hawk》。

Yeah.

是的。

You can turn it on.

您可以将其打开。

It's very inauthentic, but it sounds good on the radio.

这很不真实，但在广播里听起来不错。

It's cool.

这很酷。

I did it when I was in high school.

我在高中的时候就这么做过。

I ended up doing the midday segment right before I went to college.

我在上大学之前就完成了中午的部分。

And what a gift.

真是一份礼物啊。

What a huge gift in my most formative years to have developed an ability to be in front of a microphone comfortably, because here we are.

在我最成长的岁月里，能够轻松地站在麦克风前，这是多么巨大的礼物，因为我们在这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love for people that weren't watching this YouTube, you lean really close to the mic to get that radio personality voice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢那些没有观看 YouTube 的人，你靠得很近麦克风才能听到广播个性的声音。

Matt MacInnis: Yeah, you got to be able to hear the saliva in the mouth.

马特·麦金尼斯：是的，你必须能够听到嘴里的唾液声。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible, and it's like the same person talking.

Lenny Rachitsky：难以置信，就像同一个人在说话。

If you're not watching this, you're like, "Where did that guy come from?" That was great.

如果你不看这个，你会想，“那家伙是从哪里来的？”那很棒。

You nailed it.

你成功了。

Matt, this was incredible.

马特，这太不可思议了。

I really appreciate being here.

我真的很感激来到这里。

I really appreciate you sharing all this advice that I have not heard other people share.

我真的很感谢你分享我没有听到其他人分享的所有这些建议。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Is there something you want to plug, point people to, and how can listeners be useful to you?

您是否想插入一些东西，向人们指出，以及听众如何对您有用？

Matt MacInnis: Look, my life is rippling.

马特·麦金尼斯：看，我的生活正在荡漾。

I point people there, and this is my life's work.

我向人们指出那里，这是我一生的工作。

It's going to be a banger, so stay tuned.

这将是一场轰动，所以请继续关注。

And the way that you can help me is that if you're a customer, you got to tell me when you have problems, because that's how we get better.

你可以帮助我的方式是，如果你是客户，你必须在遇到问题时告诉我，因为这样我们才能变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the way to get to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：怎么联系你？

Is there any place you want to point people to?

您想向人们指出什么地方吗？

Matt MacInnis: DM me on Twitter, is easy @stanine.

Matt MacInnis：在 Twitter 上私信我，很简单@stanine。

You can email me my last name at rippling.com, and I'll go that far without giving out my phone number.

您可以通过电子邮件将我的姓氏发送到 ripplling.com，我会在不透露我的电话号码的情况下做到这一点。

How's that?

怎么样？

Perfect.

完美的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢你来到这里。

Matt MacInnis: It's my pleasure.

马特·麦金尼斯：这是我的荣幸。

Thank you for having me, Lenny, and congrats on all the success with this podcast.

谢谢你邀请我，莱尼，并祝贺这个播客取得的所有成功。

It's been great.

太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Same to you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你也一样。

It's always a good sign at the end of a conversation when you're like, oh, I got to get me some of that stock and I got to get into that Rippling.

在谈话结束时，当你想，哦，我必须买一些股票，我必须进入波纹时，这总是一个好兆头。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're hard to get All right, man.

Lenny Rachitsky：你很难得到 好吧，伙计。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。