The one question that saves product careers | Matt LeMay
Matt LeMay: More product managers and teams are getting laid off.
Matt LeMay：越来越多的产品经理和团队被解雇。
The problem is the message that Daniel Ek from Spotify sent out with their layoffs in 2024, we still have too many teams doing work around the work.
问题是 Spotify 的 Daniel Ek 在 2024 年裁员时发出的信息，我们仍然有太多的团队在围绕工作做工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Even if you are told to build the thing that the execs are really excited about, you're still going to get fired eventually.
Lenny Rachitsky：即使你被告知要打造让高管们真正兴奋的东西，你最终仍然会被解雇。
Matt LeMay: If you were the CEO of this company, would you fully fund your own team?
Matt LeMay：如果您是这家公司的首席执行官，您会全额资助自己的团队吗？
Frankly, most of the people I ask that question to don't know the answer right away.
坦率地说，我问这个问题的大多数人都不会立即知道答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which is something you call the low impact PM Death Spiral.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是你所说的低影响 PM 死亡螺旋。
Matt LeMay: Is the dynamic in which every medium to large company I've ever worked with finds itself in, one way or another.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我曾经合作过的每一家大中型公司都以这样或那样的方式发现自己处于这种动态之中。
Matt LeMay: It starts with adding little features here and there, making little cosmetic improvements until the next round of layoffs.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：首先是在各处添加一些小功能，在下一轮裁员之前进行一些外观改进。
Lenny Rachitsky: You have three steps to become more of an impact first product team.
Lenny Rachitsky：您可以通过三个步骤来成为更具影响力的第一产品团队。
Matt LeMay: So the first is in setting team goals, no more than one step away from company goals.
Matt LeMay：所以第一个是设定团队目标，距离公司目标不超过一步。
Don't let it get cascaded into oblivion.
不要让它被遗忘。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're an ICPM.
Lenny Rachitsky：您是 ICPM。
It's up to you.
由你决定。
No excuses.
没有任何借口。
Matt LeMay: You can follow all the best practices, but if your company goes out of business, they're not going to keep writing your paycheck for two years because all of your OKRs were a 0.
Matt LeMay：你可以遵循所有最佳实践，但如果你的公司倒闭了，他们不会继续给你写两年的薪水，因为你所有的 OKR 都是 0。
6 or a 0.7.
6 或 0.7。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Matt Lameé.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Matt Lameé。
Matt is a longtime product leader, author of one of the most popular and practical books in the field of product management called Product Management in Practice.
Matt 是一位长期的产品领导者，是产品管理领域最受欢迎和实用的书籍之一《产品管理实践》的作者。
Lenny Rachitsky: Over the course of his consulting practice, he's worked with hundreds of product teams, helping them improve how they operate and drive more impact, more consistently.
Lenny Rachitsky：在他的咨询实践过程中，他与数百个产品团队合作，帮助他们改进运营方式，并更一致地产生更大的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: From that experience, he wrote and recently published a new book called Impact First Product Teams, that I could not agree more with.
Lenny Rachitsky：根据这次经历，他撰写并最近出版了一本名为《影响第一产品团队》的新书，我对此非常同意。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Matt shares why it is so essential to align all of your work with business critical outcomes, especially if you fear layoffs at your company.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Matt 分享了为什么将所有工作与业务关键成果保持一致如此重要，特别是如果您担心公司裁员的话。
Lenny Rachitsky: We talk about the low impact death spiral that many product teams fall into.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈论许多产品团队陷入的低影响死亡螺旋。
What steps an individual product team can take to align their work to business critical outcomes, regardless of how their organization approaches product development.
无论组织如何进行产品开发，单个产品团队都可以采取哪些步骤来使他们的工作与业务关键成果保持一致。
Tips for how to push back on stupid ideas that execs ask you to build, and so much more.
有关如何抵制高管要求您构建的愚蠢想法的技巧，等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: The message in this episode is one that I believe every product manager needs to hear, especially if you don't work at a high-flying Silicon Valley tech company.
Lenny Rachitsky：我相信每个产品经理都需要听到这一集的信息，特别是如果您不在一家雄心勃勃的硅谷科技公司工作的话。
Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Martin Erickson, Adrian Joselow, and Dan Corbin for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Martin Erickson、Adrian Joselow 和 Dan Corbin 为本次对话提出的主题和问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products, including Replit, Lovable, Bolt, NNN, Linear Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, JetPRD, Mobbin, and more.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括 Replit、Lovable、Bolt、NNN、Linear Superhuman、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、JetPRD、Mobbin 等。
Check it out at Lenny'snewsletter.com and click bundle.
请访问 Lenny'snewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。
Lenny Rachitsky: With that, I bring you Matt Lameé.
Lenny Rachitsky：接下来，我为您带来 Matt Lameé。
This episode is brought to you by Enterpret.
本集由 Enterpret 为您带来。
Enterpret is a customer intelligence platform used by a leading CXN product orgs like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, Strava, Hinge, and Linear to leverage the voice of the customer and build best-in-class products.
Enterpret 是一个客户智能平台，Canva、Notion、Perplexity、Strava、Hinge 和 Linear 等领先的 CXN 产品组织都使用 Enterpret 来利用客户的声音并构建一流的产品。
Enterpret unifies all customer conversations in real time, from Gong recordings to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads, and makes it available for your team for analysis and for action.
Enterpret 实时统一所有客户对话，从 Kong 录音到 Zendesk 票证再到 Twitter 线程，并可供您的团队进行分析和采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: What makes Enterpret unique is its ability to build and update a customer-specific knowledge graph that provides the most granular and accurate categorization of all customer feedback, and connects that customer feedback to critical metrics like Revenue and CSAT.
Lenny Rachitsky：Enterpret 的独特之处在于它能够构建和更新特定于客户的知识图，该知识图提供所有客户反馈的最精细和准确的分类，并将客户反馈与收入和 CSAT 等关键指标联系起来。
Lenny Rachitsky: If modernizing your voice of customer program to a generational upgrade is a 2025 priority, like customer-centric industry leaders like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, and Linear, reach out to the team at interpret.com/Lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果将客户之声计划现代化至代际升级是 2025 年的首要任务，就像 Canva、Notion、Perplexity 和 Linear 等以客户为中心的行业领导者一样，请通过terpret.com/Lenny 与团队联系。
That's E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T dot com slash Lenny.
那是 E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T . com 斜线莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pragmatic Institute, a trusted leader in product training and the go-to source for teams driving real results.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pragmatic Institute 为您带来，Pragmatic Institute 是产品培训方面值得信赖的领导者，也是推动实际成果的团队的首选来源。
Lenny Rachitsky: This fall, they're back with the biggest event of the year: the Future of Product Management Summit.
Lenny Rachitsky：今年秋天，他们带着年度最大的活动回来了：产品管理的未来峰会。
On October 16th, join thousands of product managers, marketers, and leaders for free virtual experience built to tackle today's toughest challenges and explore the future of product.
10 月 16 日，与数千名产品经理、营销人员和领导者一起享受免费的虚拟体验，旨在应对当今最严峻的挑战并探索产品的未来。
Lenny Rachitsky: You'll hear from trusted Voices like Teresa Torres and Matt Lameé, along with Pragmatic's expert instructors and other innovators who are transforming how teams tackle AI, prioritization and product strategy.
Lenny Rachitsky：您会听到 Teresa Torres 和 Matt Lameé 等值得信赖的声音，以及 Pragmatic 的专家讲师和其他创新者的声音，他们正在改变团队处理人工智能、优先级和产品策略的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you're building products, leading teams, or leveling up your career, this summit delivers practical insights designed to move your team forward.
Lenny Rachitsky：无论您是在构建产品、领导团队还是提升您的职业生涯，本次峰会都会提供旨在推动您的团队前进的实用见解。
Lenny Rachitsky: Registration is open, but spots are limited.
Lenny Rachitsky：注册现已开放，但名额有限。
Save your seat at pragmaticinstitute.com /Lenny, that's pragmaticinstitute.com/Lenny.
请在 pragmaticinstitute.com /Lenny 上预留座位，即 pragmaticinstitute.com/Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Matt LeMay: Thank you so much for having me.
马特·勒梅：非常感谢您邀请我。
I'm really, really excited to be here.
我真的非常非常兴奋来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more excited.
Lenny Rachitsky：我更兴奋。
You have a really interesting background.
你的背景非常有趣。
I usually don't spend time on background, but I thought this would be fun.
我通常不会花时间在背景上，但我认为这会很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was looking at your LinkedIn and your background.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在查看您的 LinkedIn 和您的背景。
The beginning of your career you spent 13 years at Pitchfork reviewing music.
在您职业生涯的初期，您在 Pitchfork 工作了 13 年，负责评论音乐。
Lenny Rachitsky: Reviewing artists.
Lenny Rachitsky：评论艺术家。
Pitchfork was a massive deal.
Pitchfork 是一件大事。
I don't know where it is today, but it was the most influential music review site.
我不知道它今天在哪里，但它是最有影响力的音乐评论网站。
Is it still a big deal or is it less so?
这仍然是一个大问题还是不那么重要了？
Matt LeMay: It is still a big deal.
马特·勒梅：这仍然是一件大事。
It was much less of a big deal when I started working for them and I was a 16-year-old music nerd, writing record reviews in my bedroom at my parents' apartment.
当我开始为他们工作时，这没什么大不了的，当时我还是一个 16 岁的音乐迷，在父母公寓的卧室里写唱片评论。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so what I'm hearing is you helped make them a big deal.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我听到的是你帮助他们成为了一件大事。
Excellent.
出色的。
That's impacts.
这就是影响。
We're going to talk all about impact.
我们将讨论所有关于影响的事情。
Matt LeMay: If I were better at telling my own story, that's exactly what I'd be saying, is that before I started, I was product manager number one at Pitchfork.
Matt LeMay：如果我更擅长讲述自己的故事，那么我想说的是，在我开始之前，我是 Pitchfork 的第一产品经理。
Lenny Rachitsky: Funny enough, you look at your resume, you went into product management from Pitchfork.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，你看看你的简历，你是从 Pitchfork 进入产品管理的。
Very typical career path.
非常典型的职业道路。
Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, if you're on YouTube watching, there's a lot of musical paraphernalia behind you, an awesome guitar, so clearly there's a thread of music throughout your background.
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一下，如果你在 YouTube 上观看，你身后有很多音乐用具，一把很棒的吉他，所以很明显你的背景中有一条音乐线索。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me ask you this question: what is most similar about making music, and even critiquing music, and building great product?
Lenny Rachitsky：让我问你这个问题：制作音乐、甚至评论音乐和打造伟大的产品最相似的是什么？
Matt LeMay: The magic lies in the way people work together.
马特·勒梅：神奇之处在于人们合作的方式。
That's really what I think has been the consistent thread between all the work that I've done.
我认为这确实是我所做的所有工作之间的一致线索。
Matt LeMay: I spent years as a touring musician.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我花了很多年时间担任巡演音乐家。
I still occasionally tour in my friend Will Chef's band.
我仍然偶尔和我朋友威尔·厨师的乐队一起巡演。
And it's that magic of people with different perspectives, different ideas, building into something that is somehow greater than the sum of its individual parts and perspectives.
这就是具有不同观点、不同想法的人们所具有的魔力，他们共同构建出某种比其各个部分和观点的总和更大的东西。
Matt LeMay: That's what makes this interesting.
马特·勒梅：这就是让这件事变得有趣的原因。
That's what makes music magical.
这就是音乐的魔力。
That's what makes product development interesting, especially in the age of AI.
这就是产品开发变得有趣的原因，尤其是在人工智能时代。
Matt LeMay: When people have the opportunity to, I think, close themselves off from the messier parts of human interaction, from those moments where you realize that your perspective might be limited, that somebody else might be able to expose you to something, show you a way of working, show you a way of seeing that you haven't seen before, I think that those interactions, that ability to learn from and build with each other, is only going to become more valuable and more precious, frankly, as technology continues to do what technology does.
马特·勒梅：我认为，当人们有机会远离人类互动中那些混乱的部分时，从那些你意识到自己的视角可能受到限制的时刻开始，其他人可能能够向你展示一些东西，向你展示一种工作方式，向你展示一种你以前从未见过的看待方式，我认为，坦率地说，随着技术继续发挥技术的作用，这些互动、相互学习和共同建设的能力只会变得更有价值、更珍贵。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
So let's get to the task at hand.
那么让我们开始手头的任务吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: So you're known for writing one of the most popular books in the field of product management called Product Management in Practice.
Lenny Rachitsky：您因撰写产品管理领域最受欢迎的书籍之一《产品管理实践》而闻名。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Basically describes the job of a product manager very practically, very specifically, better than any other book out there.
基本上非常实用、非常具体地描述了产品经理的工作，比任何其他书籍都更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: You have a new book out called Impact First Product Teams.
Lenny Rachitsky：您出版了一本新书，名为“影响第一产品团队”。
I asked you what the goal of this book was and you said the goal was what are the steps that individual product teams can take to align their work to business critical outcomes, regardless of how their organizations approach product development?
我问您这本书的目标是什么，您说目标是各个产品团队可以采取哪些步骤来使他们的工作与业务关键成果保持一致，无论他们的组织如何进行产品开发？
Lenny Rachitsky: And I thought this was a really nice way of framing this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是构建这次对话的一个非常好的方式。
There's two important parts to the sentence that you gave me.
你给我的这句话有两个重要部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: One is aligning your work to business critical outcomes, and the other is steps an individual product team can take, regardless of other business functions.
Lenny Rachitsky：一是使您的工作与业务关键成果保持一致，二是单个产品团队可以采取的步骤，而不管其他业务职能如何。
Lenny Rachitsky: So let me start with this first part.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我从第一部分开始。
This is kind of you named your book after this concept of impact, first: Why is aligning work to impact and to business critical outcomes so important?
您以影响力的概念为您的书命名，首先：为什么使工作与影响力和业务关键成果保持一致如此重要？
Matt LeMay: It's important because at the end of the day, it is those business critical outcomes against which you and your team will be evaluated.
Matt LeMay：这很重要，因为归根结底，您和您的团队将根据这些业务关键成果进行评估。
That's the reality of working for a business, right?
这就是为企业工作的现实，对吗？
Matt LeMay: If you are contributing to the business in a way that the business at large can understand, that the CEO can understand, that the CFO can understand, if your team is a good investment for the business, then the business will continue making that investment.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：如果你以整个企业能够理解、首席执行官能够理解、首席财务官能够理解的方式为企业做出贡献，如果你的团队对企业来说是一项很好的投资，那么企业将继续进行这种投资。
Matt LeMay: If your team is not a good investment for the business or you don't really know if your team is a good investment for the business, but you figure you're showing up, so probably it's fine, you guess, then that puts you in a really tenuous position, and a position that I think we've all seen not work out terribly well for everybody in recent history.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：如果你的团队对企业来说不是一项好的投资，或者你真的不知道你的团队对企业来说是否是一项好的投资，但你认为你的表现，所以可能很好，你猜，那么这会让你处于一个非常脆弱的位置，我认为我们都看到这个位置在最近的历史中对每个人来说都不是很好。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so, what is this a reaction to?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，这是对什么的反应？
Because I imagine many people hearing this are, like, "Of course, PMs, product teams we're driving business impact, well, that's why we're here."
因为我想很多人听到这句话都会说，“当然，产品经理、产品团队，我们正在推动业务影响，这就是我们在这里的原因。”
Lenny Rachitsky: That's not actually the case in most cases.
Lenny Rachitsky：大多数情况下实际上并非如此。
So first of all, just what is this reaction to?
首先，这个反应到底是什么？
Is this the reaction to people being, like, "Oh, we're just going to build great products, we're going to listen to customers,"?
这是人们对“哦，我们只是要打造出色的产品，我们要倾听客户的声音”的反应吗？
Talk about the flip side of this.
谈谈这件事的另一面。
Matt LeMay: I mean, there's a couple of things.
马特·勒梅：我的意思是，有几件事。
I think the main one is just more product managers and teams are getting laid off.
我认为最主要的是更多的产品经理和团队被解雇。
That's a really scary reality right now.
现在这真是一个可怕的现实。
Matt LeMay: And if you look at the messages that are being conveyed by CEOs when they lay off these teams, some of them are pretty clear.
马特·勒梅：如果你看看首席执行官们在裁员时所传达的信息，就会发现其中一些信息非常明确。
Matt LeMay: The message that Daniel Ek from Spotify sent out with their layoffs in 2024 said, "We still have too many teams doing work around the work and supporting work, rather than focusing on opportunities with real impact."
Matt LeMay：Spotify 的 Daniel Ek 在 2024 年裁员时发出的信息称，“我们仍然有太多团队围绕工作和支持工作开展工作，而不是专注于具有真正影响力的机会。”
Matt LeMay: And that really struck a nerve because I've been on those supporting teams before.
马特·勒梅：这确实让我感到震惊，因为我以前曾加入过这些支持团队。
I've done the work around the work.
我已经完成了围绕工作的工作。
And I've assumed that if I was given work around the work to do, that surely it must be critical to the business, otherwise they wouldn't have hired me to do it.
我假设，如果我被分配了围绕这项工作的工作，那么它肯定对业务至关重要，否则他们就不会雇用我来做这件事。
Matt LeMay: I don't think that is a safe assumption to make.
马特·勒梅：我认为这不是一个安全的假设。
I think especially given that we are no longer in a zero interest rate environment, given that hiring and retaining employees is expensive, given that companies are looking at cost savings, I think we are in a moment where it is really incumbent upon each product team and each member of each product team to be able to understand, articulate, and work towards the top line business impact of their own work.
我认为，特别是考虑到我们不再处于零利率环境，考虑到雇用和留住员工的成本高昂，考虑到公司正在考虑节省成本，我认为我们正处于这样一个时刻：每个产品团队和每个产品团队的每个成员都有责任理解、阐明并努力实现自己工作对顶线业务的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So where this comes from is, one, if you are not driving something that is directly driving business growth, you're not as valuable to the company.
因此，这一点的来源是，第一，如果你没有推动直接推动业务增长的事情，那么你对公司就不那么有价值。
You're the kind of person that they'd lay off.
你就是那种他们会解雇的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's also a flip side of finding a job.
Lenny Rachitsky：找工作也有不利的一面。
It feels like if you have shown impact in your resume, "Here's all the impact I've driven," this also helps you get hired.
感觉就像如果你在简历中表现出了影响力，“这就是我所带来的所有影响力”，这也有助于你被录用。
True?
真的？
Matt LeMay: Absolutely.
马特·李梅：当然。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, it's the most common resume advice I see, is show the number, show the impact, say what you did.
我的意思是，这是我看到的最常见的简历建议，就是显示数字、显示影响、说出你做了什么。
Matt LeMay: I have a friend who does resume coaching, and I showed her my resume a couple of years ago.
马特·勒梅：我有一个做简历教练的朋友，几年前我向她展示了我的简历。
And she said, "I love your resume except for one thing.
她说：“我喜欢你的简历，除了一件事。
Why do you write like a little girl?
为什么你写得像个小女孩？
Say what you did, say what your contributions were.
说说你做了什么，说说你的贡献是什么。
Don't say 'I helped.
不要说‘我帮忙了’。
I may have maybe helped people do this'.
我可能帮助人们做到了这一点”。
Say the impact.
说一下影响。
Put the number on it." And I think I needed to hear that from her because I think there is a tendency, especially for those of us who do really thrive in that collaborative environment, who our nature is to not want to take credit for work that could only exist via the contributions of many people with diverse experiences and perspectives.
把号码写在上面。”我认为我需要从她那里听到这一点，因为我认为存在一种趋势，特别是对于我们这些在协作环境中真正茁壮成长的人来说，我们的本性是不想将工作归功于自己，而这些工作只能通过许多具有不同经验和观点的人的贡献才能存在。
Matt LeMay: It's really hard to say, "Well, I did this and I contributed to that," but that's part of why I wrote this book at the team level, because I think for folks, like myself, who really enjoy and thrive in that team environment, if you can look at the product team as the foundational unit of impact and say, "We delivered this.
马特·勒梅：真的很难说，“嗯，我做了这件事，我为那件事做出了贡献”，但这就是我在团队层面上写这本书的部分原因，因为我认为对于像我这样真正喜欢并在团队环境中茁壮成长的人来说，如果你能将产品团队视为影响力的基本单位并说，“我们交付了这个。
We were able to work together to have this impact for the business," that feels really good and also speaks directly to the work that that team did together.
我们能够共同努力对业务产生这种影响，”这感觉真的很好，也直接说明了该团队共同所做的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really interesting insight.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的见解。
I think a lot of this comes from just PMs naturally are trained to deflect credit and to include, say 'we' in everything and just this person did that.
我认为这很大程度上是由于产品经理自然而然地接受了转移信用的训练，并在所有事情中都说“我们”，而正是这个人做到了这一点。
So I get where that comes from.
所以我知道它是从哪里来的。
So most listeners will probably still be thinking, "Yes, I'm driving impact, I'm great.
所以大多数听众可能仍然会想，“是的，我正在推动影响力，我很棒。
I don't have a problem here.
我这里没有问题。
I don't to change, need to change anything." What are some ways to stress test your thinking?
我不想改变，我需要改变任何事情。”有哪些方法可以对您的思维进行压力测试？
Maybe some questions to ask yourself or maybe your team of just, like, "Okay, maybe I'm not?"
也许有些问题要问你自己或者你的团队，比如“好吧，也许我不是？”
Matt LeMay: So the first question I ask most of the teams I work with is if you were the CEO of this company, would you fully fund your own team?
Matt LeMay：所以我问大多数与我合作的团队的第一个问题是，如果你是这家公司的首席执行官，你会全额资助自己的团队吗？
Matt LeMay: And that is a small question that can provoke some big reactions.
马特·勒梅：这是一个小问题，但可能会引起一些大反应。
Because, for me, when I was working as a product manager, I truly believed that my job was to find the next most defensible thing to build, build it, celebrate it, find the next most defensible thing to build, and so on and so forth.
因为，对我来说，当我担任产品经理时，我真正相信我的工作就是找到下一个最值得构建的东西，构建它，庆祝它，找到下一个最值得构建的东西，等等。
Rinse and repeat forever and ever.
冲洗并重复，直到永远。
Matt LeMay: I kind of assumed that the existence of my team was this righteous fact of the universe, right?
Matt LeMay：我有点认为我团队的存在就是宇宙的正义事实，对吗？
My team would always be there for all time, and it was just a matter of us finding the next thing to work on, which meant doing discovery and making concessions to what leadership wanted and doing all that stakeholder management.
我的团队将永远在那里，这只是我们找到下一个要做的事情的问题，这意味着进行发现并对领导层的要求做出让步，并进行所有利益相关者管理。
Matt LeMay: But the idea that my team came at a cost to the business, that at some point somebody might look at my team on a spreadsheet and say, "Who are these very expensive people?
马特·勒梅：但是我的团队的想法是以业务为代价的，在某些时候，有人可能会在电子表格上查看我的团队并说：“这些非常昂贵的人是谁？
Why do we need them?
为什么我们需要它们？
Do we actually need them?" It just wasn't something that crossed my mind because I wasn't in the room for those conversations.
我们真的需要它们吗？”我并没有想到这件事，因为我当时不在房间里进行那些谈话。
That wasn't how I was thinking about my team's work.
我并不是这样看待我的团队的工作的。
Matt LeMay: So I like asking this question because it's a perspective shift.
马特·勒梅：所以我喜欢问这个问题，因为这是一个观点的转变。
It gets you thinking if you were personally accountable for the existential market-level success of this business, would you invest in your team?
这让你思考，如果你个人对这项业务在市场层面的成功负责，你会投资你的团队吗？
Matt LeMay: And frankly, most of the people I ask that question to don't know the answer right away.
马特·勒梅：坦率地说，我问这个问题的大多数人都不会立即知道答案。
They're not sure.
他们不确定。
They say, "I think so," or, "Yeah, yeah.
他们说，“我想是的，”或者，“是的，是的。
Yeah, because...
是的，因为...
" And then you can see the gears turning.
“然后你可以看到齿轮转动。
Matt LeMay: And again, to me that is a risky situation to be in because if you can't answer that question as a member of the team, nobody else in the organization is going to be as well-equipped to answer that question as you are.
马特·勒梅：再说一次，对我来说，这是一个危险的情况，因为如果你作为团队成员无法回答这个问题，那么组织中的其他人将不会像你一样有能力回答这个问题。
Matt LeMay: So bringing that question to the team, asking it and answering it proactively and collaboratively and being ready to say, "Okay, if we can't answer this confidently, what are the changes we need to make?
马特·勒梅：因此，向团队提出这个问题，主动地、协作地询问并回答它，并准备好说：“好吧，如果我们不能自信地回答这个问题，我们需要做出哪些改变？
Do we need to change our purview?
我们需要改变我们的权限吗？
Do we need to change our goals?
我们需要改变我们的目标吗？
Who do we need to talk to?
我们需要与谁交谈？
What do we need to do in order to make this happen, in order to answer that question confidently?" We are much better off having that conversation at the team level than waiting for someone else to have it for us, or at us.
为了实现这一目标，为了自信地回答这个问题，我们需要做什么？”在团队层面进行对话比等待其他人为我们或我们进行对话要好得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: So is kind of the signal here is if you can't confidently say yes, asking yourself this question or your team talking through this and having a clear answer, there's maybe a potential problem that you need to work on?
Lenny Rachitsky：这里的某种信号是，如果您不能自信地说“是”，问自己这个问题或您的团队讨论这个问题并得到明确的答案，那么可能存在您需要解决的潜在问题？
Matt LeMay: Absolutely.
马特·李梅：当然。
I think that's exactly it, yeah.
我想正是如此，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And we'll talk about what to actually do and the steps you recommend to fix this problem, but I want to keep talking about impact because sometimes it takes a while for people to be convinced, "Okay, I need to really do this," versus, "Okay, here's the ways to do this."
Lenny Rachitsky：我们将讨论实际要做什么以及您建议解决此问题的步骤，但我想继续谈论影响，因为有时需要一段时间才能说服人们“好吧，我真的需要这样做”，而不是“好吧，这是做到这一点的方法”。
Matt LeMay: Yeah.
马特·李梅：是的。
It has taken me until now, until writing this book to be convinced, and I still feel like I need to be convinced a little bit sometimes.
我直到现在，直到写这本书才被说服，我仍然觉得有时我需要被说服一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think the layoffs are a really good convincing function for people.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为裁员对于人们来说是一个非常有说服力的功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Where they're seeing all these PMs being laid off and just, like, "How do I avoid that?" And this is basically the answer to that, is here's how you avoid getting laid off.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们看到所有这些产品经理都被解雇了，就像“我如何避免这种情况？”这基本上就是这个问题的答案，这就是避免被解雇的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's an interesting implication in what you describe here where you encourage the PM and the product team to think like the CEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：您在这里所描述的内容有一个有趣的含义，您鼓励 PM 和产品团队像 CEO 一样思考。
Lenny Rachitsky: This touches on something I've been meaning to write about, but I haven't, which is a lot of people, there's this argument are PMs the mini CEO?
Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到我一直想写的东西，但我还没有写，很多人都在争论 PM 是迷你 CEO 吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: In my mind, the PM is 100% the mini CEO, in terms of they think like the CE or they should within the team.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我看来，PM 100% 是迷你 CEO，他们的想法与 CE 类似，或者他们应该在团队中思考。
They're the same; their job is to think about the business like a CEO within the team.
他们是一样的；他们的工作是像团队中的首席执行官一样思考业务。
Lenny Rachitsky: Obviously they're not in charge of everyone.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然他们并不负责所有人。
They can't let get anyone go.
他们不能让任何人离开。
The reporting lines are not the same.
报告路线并不相同。
But I feel like that's a really good lens for the job of a PM, is just you're like the mini CEO on a team, making sure you're building the right things, thinking about the business, solving real problems that matter.
但我觉得这对于 PM 的工作来说是一个非常好的视角，就像团队中的迷你 CEO，确保你正在构建正确的东西，思考业务，解决真正重要的问题。
Matt LeMay: I think the way I've come to think about it is that the product manager is responsible for the whole team thinking like a CEO, if that makes sense.
Matt LeMay：我认为我的想法是，产品经理负责整个团队，像首席执行官一样思考，如果这有意义的话。
Matt LeMay: So if the product manager takes that on as their sole responsibility and says, "I'm the mini CEO.
马特·勒梅：因此，如果产品经理将其视为自己的唯一责任并说：“我是迷你首席执行官。
I think about the business," that's a missed opportunity.
我考虑的是生意，”这是一个错失的机会。
Matt LeMay: In my consulting work, it's more often than not been an engineer who's actually able to get to that specific impact-level goal for the team, sometimes before the product manager does, because the engineer is thinking in systems, is thinking about, "Okay, I know this system, I know this other system.
马特·勒梅：在我的咨询工作中，通常是工程师能够真正为团队实现特定的影响级别目标，有时甚至在产品经理之前，因为工程师正在系统中思考，正在思考，“好吧，我知道这个系统，我知道另一个系统。
I've had this conversation with this person.
我和这个人有过这样的谈话。
I think I see how this can all fit together."
我想我明白这一切是如何结合在一起的。”
Matt LeMay: Sometimes it's a designer or a UX researcher who understands what customers need and who has that direct firsthand knowledge.
Matt LeMay：有时是设计师或用户体验研究人员了解客户的需求并且拥有直接的第一手知识。
Matt LeMay: So I think the way that I certainly initially misinterpreted the mini CEO thing was you are solely in charge of this, as opposed to you are the person who brings that kind of CEO-level commercial thinking to the team.
马特·勒梅：所以我认为我最初误解了迷你首席执行官的方式是你独自负责这件事，而不是你是将这种首席执行官级别的商业思维带给团队的人。
And I've been much more inclined of late to see the product manager's job as to bring in and facilitate that conversation, rather than to be the sole owner of that conversation.
最近我更倾向于将产品经理的工作视为引入并促进对话，而不是成为对话的唯一所有者。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really good Nuance to what I said, and it makes all the sense in the world.
Lenny Rachitsky：这与我所说的话有一个非常好的细微差别，而且它很有道理。
Lenny Rachitsky: Following these lines of what is the job for product manager, you have a really nice way of just thinking about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：按照产品经理的工作的这些思路，你有一个非常好的思考方式。
What does a business expect from a product manager?
企业对产品经理的期望是什么？
Matt LeMay: Yeah.
马特·李梅：是的。
My favorite definition of product management comes from Melissa Perry's book Escaping the Build Trap, where she describes product management as facilitating a value exchange.You're facilitating a value exchange between a business and its customers.
我最喜欢的产品管理定义来自 Melissa Perry 的《逃离构建陷阱》一书，她在书中将产品管理描述为促进价值交换。您正在促进企业与其客户之间的价值交换。
Matt LeMay: The actual shape and nature of that value exchange depends on so many things.
马特·勒梅：价值交换的实际形式和性质取决于很多因素。
It depends on your funding model, it depends on your business model, it depends on whether you're B2B or B2C, it depends on whether you're publicly traded or privately held.
这取决于您的融资模式，取决于您的商业模式，取决于您是 B2B 还是 B2C，取决于您是公开交易还是私人持有。
There are so many different variables that go into what a business expects from product teams.
企业对产品团队的期望有很多不同的变量。
Matt LeMay: And one thing I've come to is that I'm probably too hesitant to generalize in general, aside from that generalization I just made, but I think that the best product managers and teams I've worked with are really curious to understand what success means to their particular business.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我发现的一件事是，除了我刚刚做出的概括之外，我可能不太愿意概括，但我认为与我合作过的最好的产品经理和团队真的很好奇，想了解成功对他们的特定业务意味着什么。
Matt LeMay: So if that's a startup, how much runway do we have?
Matt LeMay：如果这是一家初创公司，我们有多少跑道？
What do we need to raise that next round?
我们需要什么来筹集下一轮资金？
Are our investors looking for growth?
我们的投资者是否在寻求增长？
Are they looking for profitability?
他们在寻找盈利能力吗？
What are they looking for in order for us to reach that next existential milestone?
为了让我们达到下一个存在的里程碑，他们在寻找什么？
Matt LeMay: If we're a publicly traded company, what are investors looking for?
Matt LeMay：如果我们是一家上市公司，投资者在寻找什么？
What have we told shareholders?
我们对股东说了些什么？
What's in our next prospectus?
我们的下一份招股说明书有什么内容？
What are we saying we're going to deliver to the market at large?
我们所说的要向整个市场提供什么？
Matt LeMay: This information usually exists somewhere, but it's really easy to get disconnected from it as we go about the day-to-day work of doing product management.
Matt LeMay：这些信息通常存在于某个地方，但当我们进行产品管理的日常工作时，很容易与它脱节。
Matt LeMay: I've been in a lot of rooms having workshops and sessions with teams I work with, where they're pulling up the last town hall meeting to look for slides from their CEO because they're so busy, they have so many day-to-day things to deal with, that for them that town hall day is, like, "Okay, finally I can just not have to deal with people emailing me every 10 seconds." It's a chance to take a deep breath and then get back to the stuff that really matters.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我在很多房间里与我合作的团队举办研讨会和会议，他们会拉起最后一次市政厅会议来寻找首席执行官的幻灯片，因为他们太忙了，他们有很多日常事情要处理，对他们来说，市政厅日就像是，“好吧，终于我不必处理人们每 10 秒给我发一封电子邮件了。”这是一个深呼吸然后回到真正重要的事情上的机会。
Matt LeMay: But those top-level things, those promises that have been made to the market at large, to the board, to the shareholders, those are often a great place to start for understanding what exactly your business is looking for, so you can figure out how your team's work helps contribute to success in the terms that matter most to the business.
马特·勒梅：但是那些顶层的事情，那些向整个市场、董事会、股东做出的承诺，这些往往是了解您的企业到底在寻找什么的一个很好的起点，这样您就可以弄清楚您的团队的工作如何帮助以对企业最重要的方式取得成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an amazing segue to exactly where I'd wanted to go, which is this quote that is exactly what you just said, the question you should be asking, it's kind of a different version of the one you shared earlier, which is what are we doing to contribute to the success of the business?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人惊奇的接续，正是我想要去的地方，这句话正是您刚才所说的，您应该问的问题，它与您之前分享的版本不同，这就是我们正在做什么来为业务的成功做出贡献？
Lenny Rachitsky: So what is it that you think people are thinking instead most often?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么您认为人们最常思考的是什么？
Matt LeMay: It's interesting.
马特·勒梅：这很有趣。
We live in a world where for the last 20 years of product development, we've been all about best practices.
在我们生活的世界里，在过去 20 年的产品开发中，我们一直致力于最佳实践。
We love best practices.
我们喜欢最佳实践。
Matt LeMay: And I love best practices too.
Matt LeMay：我也喜欢最佳实践。
I think best practices can be really valuable, can be really useful.
我认为最佳实践非常有价值，非常有用。
I love how much knowledge sharing there is out there.
我喜欢那里有这么多的知识分享。
When I started 15 years ago, it was so much harder to get any sense of how anybody was doing anything.
当我 15 年前开始工作时，要了解任何人如何做某事是非常困难的。
Matt LeMay: But I think the downside of this is that there are a lot of folks who are really, really fixated on doing things the right way.
马特·勒梅：但我认为这样做的缺点是，有很多人非常非常专注于以正确的方式做事。
And a lot of the writing and thinking about doing things the right way exists in kind of this middle layer, between impact and day-to-day work.
许多关于以正确方式做事的写作和思考都存在于影响力和日常工作之间的中间层。
Matt LeMay: So if you have impact, the overall success of the business, revenue, growth, profits.
马特·勒梅：所以，如果你有影响力，那么业务、收入、增长、利润的整体成功。
Then from there you set objectives and you do initiatives, and then you do bets, and then you make a strategy, and then you do your day-to-day work.
然后从那里你设定目标，采取行动，然后你下注，然后你制定策略，然后你进行日常工作。
Matt LeMay: I think the tendency among a lot of product teams is to key to those middle pieces, to say, "Okay, what we're doing is on strategy.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我认为很多产品团队的趋势是把关键放在那些中间部分上，他们会说：“好吧，我们正在做的是战略。
What we're doing is part of objectives.
我们正在做的事情是目标的一部分。
We did OKRs, right?
我们做了 OKR，对吗？
We spent three weeks coming up with our OKRs for three months.
我们花了三周的时间制定了三个月的 OKR。
It's OKR season, everybody.
大家，现在是 OKR 季节。
We have to pretend to care about our goals, and I read a book that says we have to have five to seven objectives with five to seven key results, and we want the score of each one to be a 0.6 or a 0.7."
我们必须假装关心我们的目标，我读过一本书，书上说我们必须有五到七个目标，其中有五到七个关键结果，我们希望每个目标的得分为 0.6 或 0.7。”
Matt LeMay: And at the end of the day, you've actually spent so much time and energy being really clever and cascading these things into these intermediate steps, that each step has incurred more and more risk that we might not achieve that impact we seek to drive.
马特·勒梅：归根结底，你实际上花了很多时间和精力，非常聪明地将这些事情级联到这些中间步骤中，每一步都带来了越来越多的风险，我们可能无法实现我们寻求推动的影响。
Matt LeMay: Each time we abstract things out, each time we cascade things from impact to something else until we wind up with a checklist of features to build, we're assuming that if we then build that checklist of features...
Matt LeMay：每次我们将事物抽象出来，每次我们将事物从影响级联到其他事物，直到我们最终得到要构建的功能清单时，我们假设如果我们随后构建该功能清单......
We will have a successful business.
我们将拥有成功的事业。
Matt LeMay: But honestly, most of the companies and teams I work with, if I ask them how their lowest-level goals add up to their highest-level goals, they look at me like I just asked them the most impossible question in the world.
马特·勒梅：但说实话，与我合作的大多数公司和团队，如果我问他们最低级别的目标如何与最高级别的目标相加，他们会看着我，就像我刚刚问了他们世界上最不可能的问题一样。
Matt LeMay: Because by the time you get things down to that level, maybe it's going to work, maybe it's not going to work.
马特·勒梅：因为当你把事情降到那个水平时，也许它会起作用，也许它不会起作用。
There are assumptions baked into each of those levels.
每个级别都有一些假设。
Matt LeMay: You might go through the motions of doing OKRs the right way or doing strategy the right way, but that doesn't guarantee that your strategy is going to work.
Matt LeMay：您可能会以正确的方式执行 OKR 或以正确的方式执行策略，但这并不能保证您的策略会发挥作用。
It doesn't mean that your OKRs are going to add up to what your investors or your shareholders need to see.
这并不意味着您的 OKR 会达到您的投资者或股东需要看到的效果。
Matt LeMay: So I think there's a tendency among product teams to really sweat the middle, and to get really stressed out if the middle is not in perfect theoretical harmony with itself.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：所以我认为产品团队有一种趋势，就是让中间层出汗，如果中间层与其本身在理论上不完美和谐，就会感到压力很大。
If the objectives are a little out of line with the initiatives, are a little out of line with the bets, are a little out of line with the domains.
如果目标与计划有点不一致，与赌注有点不一致，与领域有点不一致。
Matt LeMay: But at the end of the day, I don't think I've ever worked for a company where these things add up to a perfect breadcrumb trail you can trace back from, "We prioritized these bits of work in this sprint because it adds up to this objective, which is part of this strategy, which adds up to this initiative, which is part of this bet, which will deliver this much impact." It's just not how things work in the real world.
马特·勒梅：但归根结底，我认为在我工作过的公司中，这些东西加在一起就没有一个完美的面包屑痕迹，你可以从中追溯到，“我们在这个冲刺中优先考虑这些工作，因为它加起来实现了这个目标，这是这个战略的一部分，它加起来是这个计划的一部分，这是这个赌注的一部分，它将产生如此大的影响。”这并不是现实世界中事情的运作方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like a lot of listeners are, like, "That sounds very familiar," exactly what you just described.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得很多听众都会说，“这听起来很熟悉”，正如你刚才所描述的那样。
Again, we're going to talk about what to change and how to make work better to actually align your teams with impact.
再次，我们将讨论要改变什么以及如何使工作更好，从而真正使您的团队与影响力保持一致。
But I want to first talk about something that follows this thread you're on, which is something you call the Low Impact PM Death Spiral.
但我想首先谈谈您正在讨论的这条线索之后的一些事情，这就是您所说的低影响 PM 死亡螺旋。
Talk about what that looks like.
谈谈那是什么样子的。
Matt LeMay: The Low Impact Death Spiral is the dynamic in which every-
马特·勒梅 (Matt LeMay)：低影响死亡螺旋是一种动态，其中每个-
Matt LeMay: ...
马特·李梅：...
impact death spiral is the dynamic in which every medium to large company I've ever worked with finds itself in one way or another.
影响死亡螺旋是一种动态，我曾经合作过的每一家大中型公司都会以这样或那样的方式发现自己。
And honestly, a lot of small product companies do as well, and it goes something like this.
老实说，很多小型产品公司也这样做，事情是这样的。
It starts with teams taking on low impact work.
首先，团队承担低影响的工作。
Adding little features here and there, making little cosmetic improvements because it's easier, it invites less scrutiny and you're less likely to mess up something important, right?
到处添加一些小功能，做一些外观上的改进，因为它更容易，它会引起更少的审查，而且你不太可能搞砸一些重要的事情，对吗？
The analogy I use sometimes is if you're working on a car, if you put your hands in the engine, you might make the car run really well or you might make it so that the car doesn't run at all.
我有时用的比喻是，如果你正在修理一辆汽车，如果你把手放在发动机上，你可能会让汽车跑得很好，或者你可能会让汽车根本无法运行。
If you have the option of doing that or decking out the car with a paint job and rhinestones and making it look really, really cool, what are you going to choose to do?
如果你可以选择这样做，或者用油漆和莱茵石来装饰汽车，让它看起来非常非常酷，你会选择做什么？
I know for me, I would choose the rhinestones every time because then the car runs however it runs.
我知道对我来说，我每次都会选择莱茵石，因为这样汽车就可以随心所欲地行驶。
Whoever else is the expert in engines can fix the engine, but I'm going to do this thing which everyone can see.
任何其他发动机专家都可以修理发动机，但我要做这件事，让每个人都能看到。
All the executives can look at it and say, "Wow, look at how cool this car looks," and it's not going to do any harm, right?
所有的高管都可以看着它说，“哇，看看这辆车看起来多酷”，这不会造成任何伤害，对吗？
What's the worst that could happen?
可能发生的最坏情况是什么？
We can always take the paint off.
我们总是可以把油漆去掉。
Matt LeMay: The problem is if you have 10 teams adding rhinestones to a car, eventually the hood of the car is going to be so heavy that you can't lift it to get to the engine anymore, and that's exactly what happens in most product organizations.
Matt LeMay：问题是，如果有 10 个团队在汽车上添加莱茵石，最终汽车的引擎盖会变得很重，以至于你无法再抬起它来接触发动机，而这正是大多数产品组织中发生的情况。
As you have more and more teams adding in these little features, making little enhancements, adding features, which might get some usage, but they're not going to take away anything meaningful, they're not going to mess with the commercial engine of the business.
随着越来越多的团队添加这些小功能，进行一些增强，添加功能，这些功能可能会得到一些使用，但他们不会带走任何有意义的东西，他们不会扰乱业务的商业引擎。
You have more folks building in and the hood of the car gets heavier and heavier, the product gets more and more complicated.
建造的人越来越多，汽车的引擎盖变得越来越重，产品变得越来越复杂。
Matt LeMay: You have all these little bits that have little dependencies on each other and the product becomes as, I think most modern products are a collection of loosely connected features rather than a single guided experience.
Matt LeMay：所有这些相互之间几乎没有依赖性的小部分，我认为大多数现代产品都是松散连接的功能的集合，而不是单一的引导体验。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
That means internally, building anything becomes a lot harder, right?
这意味着在内部，构建任何东西都会变得更加困难，对吧？
Because there's 10 product teams that have to manage dependencies whenever you want to build something, so companies start adding program management layers.
因为每当您想要构建某些东西时，就有 10 个产品团队必须管理依赖关系，因此公司开始添加程序管理层。
They're like, "We have too many meetings.
他们会说，“我们的会议太多了。
We need to reorg for program management because reorgs fix everything and we need to make sure that we have all these layers and people are connected and we're doing dependency management." But as you add more of those things, it becomes harder and harder to do high-impact work.
我们需要重组以进行项目管理，因为重组可以解决所有问题，我们需要确保我们拥有所有这些层并且人员相互连接，并且我们正在进行依赖性管理。”但当你添加更多这些东西时，做高影响力的工作就会变得越来越难。
Matt LeMay: The hood just gets heavier and heavier and heavier, which in turn sends teams deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole of low-impact work.
Matt LeMay：引擎盖变得越来越重，这反过来又让团队在低影响工作的兔子洞里越陷越深。
Low-impact work begets low-impact work.
低影响的工作会产生低影响的工作。
The more low-impact work you do, the harder it is to do high-impact work, the more likely you are to do low-impact work and so on and so forth.
你做的低影响工作越多，做高影响工作就越困难，你就越有可能做低影响工作等等。
It goes and goes and goes until the next round of layoffs, and this is a real problem.
它一直持续到下一轮裁员，这是一个真正的问题。
Matt LeMay: I've experienced this at again, pretty much every company I've worked with, and it's been really interesting to see how often the breaking of that cycle comes down to individual product teams being brave enough to look at their own work and look at what matters to the business and say, "You know what?
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我在几乎所有与我合作过的公司中都经历过这种情况，看到这个周期的打破常常取决于各个产品团队是否勇敢地审视自己的工作并审视对业务重要的事情并说：“你知道吗？
We are not going to incur the risk of being a low-impact team anymore.
我们将不再承担成为低影响力团队的风险。
We are going to proactively seek out high- impact work and we're going to deliver, even if it means we have to coordinate with a lot of other teams.
我们将主动寻找高影响力的工作并交付成果，即使这意味着我们必须与许多其他团队进行协调。
Even if it means that suddenly the executive team takes a really big interest in the work that we're doing.
即使这意味着管理团队突然对我们正在做的工作产生了很大的兴趣。
We're going to see that as signs that the work we're doing matters not as things that are going to be an impediment to getting the work done."
我们将把这视为我们正在做的工作很重要的迹象，而不是阻碍完成工作的事情。”
Lenny Rachitsky: As you just kind of alluded to, there's a big implication here of even if you are told to build a thing that the execs are really excited about, that is low impact in your opinion, that's no excuse.
Lenny Rachitsky：正如你刚才提到的，这里有一个很大的含义，即使你被告知要开发一个让高管们真正兴奋的东西，在你看来影响很小，这不是借口。
You're still going to get fired eventually, even though they're telling you to build it.
即使他们告诉你要建造它，你最终仍然会被解雇。
It sucks, but that's how it goes.
很糟糕，但事情就是这样。
Matt LeMay: It's funny, I worked with MailChimp for three years leading up to their acquisition by Intuit, when they were on this really interesting journey of going from a single product company to a platform company, which is a journey that a lot of companies are on.
Matt LeMay：有趣的是，在 MailChimp 被 Intuit 收购之前，我与 MailChimp 合作了三年，当时他们正在经历从单一产品公司到平台公司的非常有趣的旅程，这是很多公司都在经历的旅程。
Where they've found success in one part of the market and they say, "You know what?
当他们在某一市场取得成功时，他们会说：“你知道吗？
We recognize that there's a value add in working more horizontally and giving people a suite of tools they can use.
我们认识到，更加横向地工作并为人们提供一套他们可以使用的工具可以带来附加值。
We want to build these tools and really make sure that we are meeting the needs of our small and medium business customers."
我们希望构建这些工具，并真正确保满足中小型企业客户的需求。”
Matt LeMay: So I was brought on shortly after they did a reorg.
马特·勒梅：所以在他们重组后不久我就被录用了。
They went into a domains model.
他们进入了领域模型。
They had different teams that were supposed to be experts on different parts of this marketing platform that were building in new features and their VP product, Natalia Williams, who then became their CPO, she said, "This is great that we're doing this, but I'm worried that we're going to lose sight of the commercial fundamentals.
他们有不同的团队，这些团队应该是这个营销平台不同部分的专家，这些部分正在构建新功能，他们的产品副总裁 Natalia Williams，后来成为他们的首席产品官，她说，“我们这样做很棒，但我担心我们会忽视商业基础。
We have these teams building this really cool stuff and we've been so clear that we're excited about the teams that are working on initiative, that are building these new things, that are building out this platform, but let's make sure we stay focused on making sure that the entire platform grows in a healthy and sustainable way.
我们让这些团队构建了这个非常酷的东西，我们非常清楚，我们对那些正在主动工作、正在构建这些新事物、正在构建这个平台的团队感到兴奋，但让我们确保我们继续专注于确保整个平台以健康和可持续的方式发展。
And that as we are adding in these new features and functionalities, we're not making this so crowded and complicated that it's harder for people to get value out of it."
当我们添加这些新特性和功能时，我们不会让这个变得如此拥挤和复杂，以至于人们更难从中获得价值。”
Matt LeMay: So she set a very clear goal for the product team.
Matt LeMay：所以她为产品团队设定了非常明确的目标。
She wanted a specific change in the rate of users who successfully send their first email.
她希望对成功发送第一封电子邮件的用户率进行具体改变。
She was like, "As we build these new things, email is still where people are coming in.
她说：“当我们构建这些新事物时，电子邮件仍然是人们进来的地方。
We want to make sure that they can do this successfully." And she set a really ambitious goal for the entire product organization.
我们希望确保他们能够成功做到这一点。”她为整个产品组织设定了一个非常雄心勃勃的目标。
And she put it forth to the product teams and a lot of product teams were understandably hesitant to take this on, for a number of reasons.
她向产品团队提出了这个问题，许多产品团队出于多种原因对接受这个问题犹豫不决，这是可以理解的。
They said, "If we mess this up, that's the entire commercial heart of the business.
他们说：“如果我们把事情搞砸了，这就会影响整个企业的商业核心。
That's really risky."
这真的很危险。”
Matt LeMay: Other ones said, "That's great, but we're building out these new parts of the platform that are really important.
马特·勒梅：其他人说，“这很好，但我们正在构建平台的这些新部分，这些部分非常重要。
We don't want to risk slowing those things down." There was one product manager I worked with who really understood how important this was.
我们不想冒险放慢这些事情的进展。”与我共事的一位产品经理非常了解这一点的重要性。
She had worked on enough different parts of the app at that point.
那时她已经在应用程序的不同部分进行了足够多的工作。
She had been on a growth team, so she really had that kind of user-centric, how do we hit the metrics we need to hit mindset?
她曾在一个增长团队中工作过，所以她确实具有以用户为中心的理念，我们如何达到我们需要的指标来达到思维定式？
And she came to me and she was like, "I want to make sure we do this because I'm worried about what'll happen if we don't do this, right?
她来找我说，“我想确保我们这样做，因为我担心如果我们不这样做会发生什么，对吗？
I don't want to be on the product team that failed to deliver what matters most to the business."
我不想加入未能交付对业务最重要的产品的产品团队。”
Matt LeMay: So she went and worked with some user researchers and found where people were getting stuck.
马特·勒梅：所以她去与一些用户研究人员合作，发现了人们陷入困境的地方。
She did this amazing study finding where people were getting stuck before they sent that first email and she gathered together a group of product managers.
她做了一项令人惊奇的研究，发现人们在发送第一封电子邮件之前就陷入了困境，于是她召集了一群产品经理。
I'll never forget this.
我永远不会忘记这一点。
I was on site in Atlanta and she gathered together a group of product managers and she was like, "Look, these are the things we need to fix if we're going to hit this, but if we fix these things, I think we can do it.
我在亚特兰大现场，她召集了一群产品经理，她说，“看，如果我们要解决这个问题，这些是我们需要解决的问题，但如果我们解决这些问题，我认为我们可以做到。
I think we can get there." And there was a moment of silence where again, for totally understandable reasons, people were like, "Okay, this is great.
我想我们可以到达那里。”一阵沉默，人们再次出于完全可以理解的原因说：“好吧，这太棒了。
I see it, but I'm kind of afraid that if we do this," and this product manager, I will never forget that.
我看到了，但我有点担心如果我们这样做，”而这位产品经理，我永远不会忘记这一点。
Matt LeMay: She looks around the room and she says, "You know what?
马特·勒梅：她环顾房间，然后说：“你知道吗？
I'm going to haunt all of you in your dreams if you do not take this on.
如果你们不接受这件事，我会在你们所有人的梦中困扰。
This is the most important thing for the business." And everyone laughed.
这对企业来说是最重要的事情。”大家都笑了。
It was a strong comment, but it was a strong comment made in really good faith that in its own way, I think acknowledged the fear that people had about taking this on.
这是一个强烈的评论，但这是一个真诚的强烈评论，我认为它以自己的方式承认了人们对接受这一点的恐惧。
She was like, "Look, this is really important and if we work together, if we care less about the constraints and parameters and borders of our domains and care more about how we work together to deliver the thing that our leader has told us is the most important thing for the business, we can get this done."
她说，“看，这真的很重要，如果我们共同努力，如果我们不太关心我们领域的约束、参数和边界，而更多地关心我们如何共同努力实现我们的领导告诉我们的对业务来说最重要的事情，我们就能完成这件事。”
Matt LeMay: And they did get it done, and they got it done through subtracting.
马特·勒梅：他们确实做到了，而且是通过减法做到的。
They streamlined the experience.
他们简化了体验。
They took out steps that people were getting stuck on.
他们消除了人们被困的步骤。
They made things easier.
他们让事情变得更容易。
They did the kinds of things that are rarely celebrated in the way that traditional feature launches were celebrated, but because they had this clear, impactful, specific sense of what success looks like, they were able to take on that work themselves and it made the product better, made the business better, and it was just a great moment of working with a great team.
他们所做的事情很少像传统的功能发布那样庆祝，但因为他们对成功是什么样子有清晰、有影响力、具体的认识，所以他们能够自己承担这项工作，这让产品变得更好，让业务变得更好，这只是与一个伟大的团队合作的伟大时刻。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was an awesome example.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。
I love just how much of a hero's journey this example is.
我喜欢这个例子的英雄之旅。
Along those lines, it's interesting how much courage it takes to do this.
沿着这些思路，有趣的是要做到这一点需要多大的勇气。
Because to your point, the easy thing is just, "Okay, everyone's just telling us to do this thing.
因为就你而言，最简单的事情就是，“好吧，每个人都只是告诉我们做这件事。
We're going to build this feature.
我们将构建这个功能。
Great, easy.
太好了，简单。
I don't have to put myself out there." And what you're pointing out there is it's up to you to recognize what you're doing is not high impact and to have courage to push back and suggest something else.
我不必把自己放在那里。”你所指出的是，你需要认识到你所做的事情影响并不大，并有勇气反击并提出其他建议。
Matt LeMay: The funny thing is, it's courage, but it's also a kind of radical acceptance of reality.
马特·勒梅：有趣的是，这是勇气，但也是一种对现实的彻底接受。
There's a very kind of emotional philosophical dimension to this conversation because I think it is in human nature to not want to be accountable for things outside of our control.
这次谈话有一种非常情感化的哲学维度，因为我认为不想对我们无法控制的事情负责是人的本性。
Impact is not something we can just check off a list.
影响力不是我们可以简单地核对清单的东西。
If we're really working towards business impact, that means that there are things that might happen in the market that are going to affect us, right?
如果我们真的致力于业务影响，那就意味着市场上可能发生的一些事情会影响我们，对吗？
Our competitors might launch something, there might be a pandemic or a war or something we didn't expect.
我们的竞争对手可能会推出一些东西，可能会发生流行病或战争或我们没有预料到的事情。
We're reliant upon customers to change their behavior, to convert or to upgrade or to do whatever it is we hope they will do.
我们依靠客户来改变他们的行为，进行转换或升级，或者做我们希望他们做的任何事情。
Matt LeMay: I use the word hope because again, we can do our best to influence that behavior, but we can't just check a box.
马特·勒梅：我使用“希望”这个词是因为我们可以尽最大努力影响这种行为，但我们不能只勾选一个框。
And I think there is this very understandable human fear of being accountable for things that are beyond our control.
我认为，人类害怕对我们无法控制的事情负责，这是可以理解的。
I get that so hard, but what I think the last couple of years have shown us is that we are accountable for things outside of our control.
我很难理解这一点，但我认为过去几年向我们展示的是，我们要对我们无法控制的事情负责。
The success of the businesses we work for is ultimately beyond our immediate control.
我们所服务的企业的成功最终超出了我们的直接控制范围。
Matt LeMay: And you can follow all the best practices and have the highest velocity and do everything quote-unquote "right", but if your company goes out of business, they're not going to say, "Yeah, we're going out of business, but we're going to keep writing your paycheck for two years because all of your OKRs were a 0.6 or a 0.7." That's not how it works.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：你可以遵循所有最佳实践，以最快的速度，做所有的事情，“正确”，但如果你的公司倒闭了，他们不会说，“是的，我们要倒闭了，但我们会继续给你发工资两年，因为你所有的 OKR 都是 0.6 或 0.7。”事情不是这样的。
The reality is that things outside of our control affect us, and I think that if we can internalize that, there's a real freedom in it.
现实是，我们无法控制的事情会影响我们，我认为如果我们能够内化这一点，那就有真正的自由。
The thing that surprised me most when I was researching this book is that the commercially minded PMs I interviewed were also the happiest, which I did not expect at all.
当我研究这本书时，最让我惊讶的是，我采访的那些有商业头脑的 PM 也是最快乐的，这是我完全没有想到的。
Matt LeMay: As you said, I come from a music background.
马特·勒梅：正如你所说，我有音乐背景。
I was expecting the business people to be really stressed out, and like, "I have to show up at work 92 hours a day to crush it and make sure that we hit the metrics and crush the numbers." But they were just like, "Yeah, I work for a business and I do the best I can, and then I go home.
我原以为业务人员会感到非常紧张，就像“我必须每天 92 小时工作来压垮它，并确保我们达到指标并压垮数字。”但他们就像是，“是的，我在一家企业工作，我尽我所能，然后我就回家了。
When I'm at work, my job is to help the business succeed.
当我工作时，我的工作就是帮助企业取得成功。
And I do that by understanding our business model, by trying to do work that contributes to what the business wants.
我通过了解我们的商业模式、努力做有助于实现业务需求的工作来做到这一点。
In order to do that, if my goals are really impact level goals, I have to learn about our customers.
为了做到这一点，如果我的目标确实是影响力级别的目标，我必须了解我们的客户。
I have to do discovery, I have to do all these things that we're supposed to do, not because they're abstract best practices, but because that's how you build a successful product."
我必须进行发现，我必须做所有我们应该做的事情，不是因为它们是抽象的最佳实践，而是因为这就是构建成功产品的方式。”
Matt LeMay: And then at the end of the day, I'm not fighting my company to do product the right way, and if they can't do it the right way, I'm willing to die on this hill.
马特·勒梅：最终，我不会与我的公司以正确的方式生产产品作斗争，如果他们不能以正确的方式生产，我愿意死在这座山上。
It's like, " I work for a company.
就像，“我在一家公司工作。
I don't get to make every decision.
我无法做出每一个决定。
There are things outside of my control.
有些事情是我无法控制的。
I'll do the best I can, and I get to free up a little bit of energy to live the rest of my life."
我会尽我所能，释放一点能量来度过我的余生。”
Lenny Rachitsky: To make this even less scary, hopefully, I'm curious what your answer is going to be here.
Lenny Rachitsky：为了让这件事变得不那么可怕，我希望我很好奇你的答案会是什么。
Do you find that people who take this leap and push back and try to change the way their teams are thinking and what they take on, do you find that even if they fail, even if they impact wasn't there and the project fails, they're seen more favorably and their career ends up doing better and they end up doing better even if the project fails?
你是否发现，那些采取这一飞跃并进行反击并试图改变团队思维方式和承担方式的人，你是否发现即使他们失败了，即使他们没有产生影响并且项目失败了，他们也会得到更有利的评价，他们的职业生涯最终会做得更好，即使项目失败了，他们最终会做得更好？
Matt LeMay: I hope so.
马特·李梅：我希望如此。
I'm always super, again, it's outside of my control.
我总是超级棒，再说一次，这超出了我的控制范围。
I can't say, if you do these things, then you will be looked upon favorably by the people who manage you because I don't know those people, and maybe they're not going to react well.
我不能说，如果你做了这些事情，那么你会受到管理你的人的青睐，因为我不认识那些人，也许他们不会有很好的反应。
Maybe they're not actually...
或许他们其实并不是...
People are not always rational, and these things don't always play out the way you hope they will.
人并不总是理性的，事情也并不总是按照你希望的方式发展。
What I will say is there's a story in the book, in Impact-First Product Teams about somebody who worked for a dating app, and they were given a project to work on, which had a very specific ambitious revenue goal.
我要说的是，书中有一个故事，在影响力第一的产品团队中，讲述了一个为约会应用程序工作的人，他们被分配了一个项目，该项目有一个非常具体的雄心勃勃的收入目标。
And at a certain point, it became clear that they were probably not going to be able to hit this because of other things they needed to do.
在某个时刻，很明显他们可能无法实现这一点，因为他们需要做其他事情。
Matt LeMay: So they went to the finance team and said, "Hey, we have to adjust this down." And the finance team said, "Yeah, of course you do.
马特·勒梅：所以他们去找财务团队说：“嘿，我们必须对此进行调整。”财务团队说：“是的，当然可以。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Let's adjust it down together." Would that conversation have played out the same way if they had not taken that step of saying proactively, " Based on what is happening in the broader world in the market, our product, we no longer believe we are on track to hit this, but we want to adjust so that the company at large can make better predictions and resource things accordingly"?
我们一起调整一下吧。”如果他们没有采取主动说“根据更广泛的市场和我们的产品所发生的情况，我们不再相信我们能够实现这一目标，但我们希望进行调整，以便整个公司能够做出更好的预测并相应地提供资源”，那么对话还会以同样的方式进行吗？
Matt LeMay: I don't know.
马特·李梅：我不知道。
But I think again, if you are embracing that mindset that there are things outside of your control and your job is to do what you can from where you sit to contribute to the success of the business, I think you're certainly doing so much more by telling the business honestly what you think is possible and what's going to happen, as opposed to stepping back from it and saying like, "Oh, well, if we talk about it, we're going to get in trouble and nobody's going to believe us." And just that simple withholding of information does its own kind of harm.
但我再次认为，如果你抱有这样的心态，即有些事情是你无法控制的，而你的工作就是尽你所能，为企业的成功做出贡献，那么我认为，通过诚实地告诉企业你认为可能发生的事情以及将会发生的事情，你肯定会做得更多，而不是退一步说，“哦，好吧，如果我们谈论它，我们就会遇到麻烦，没有人会相信我们。”仅仅简单地隐瞒信息本身就会造成伤害。
So I can't guarantee any kind of outcomes.
所以我不能保证任何结果。
I can't say, "Yes, this will be received with generosity and grace," in all cases, but I think it's the right thing to do.
在所有情况下，我不能说“是的，这将被慷慨和优雅地接受”，但我认为这是正确的做法。
Lenny Rachitsky: My sense is either you will be respected more highly because you are kind of solving problems for people, like higher ups that you're seeing, things that they should be seeing, and you're right, and they're like, "Oh, wow, Matt's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我的感觉是，要么你会受到更高的尊重，因为你在为人们解决问题，比如你看到的高层，他们应该看到的事情，你是对的，他们会说，“哦，哇，马特太棒了。
He saw all this stuff and changed." Or you realize this is not the company for me.
他看到了这一切并且改变了。”或者你意识到这不适合我。
They don't value this.
他们不重视这一点。
They just want me to ship this widget and that's all they want from me.
他们只是想让我运送这个小部件，这就是他们对我的全部要求。
I could do more somewhere else.
我可以在其他地方做更多事情。
Matt LeMay: Well, I think you touched on something really important there, which is that when you understand the business model, you understand the real world ethics and priorities of the company you work for, right?
马特·勒梅：嗯，我认为你谈到了一些非常重要的事情，那就是当你了解商业模式时，你就会了解你所工作的公司的现实世界道德和优先事项，对吧？
If you understand what the company's optimizing for, what they really care about, what trade-offs and sacrifices they're willing to make in order to achieve those goals, that tells you a lot more than the mission statement.
如果您了解公司正在优化什么，他们真正关心什么，为了实现这些目标他们愿意做出哪些权衡和牺牲，那么这会告诉您比使命宣言更多的信息。
Which usually sounds great, but if you follow the money, if you follow the decision-making, sometimes it paints a different picture.
这通常听起来不错，但如果你追随金钱，如果你追随决策，有时它会描绘出不同的景象。
Matt LeMay: And I think the more you can understand how the business model works, what that value exchange is, what value is being delivered, what value is being extracted, that I think puts you in a better position to decide, if I were to help the company achieve success, do I feel good about that?
马特·勒梅：我认为你越能理解商业模式是如何运作的，价值交换是什么，正在交付什么价值，正在提取什么价值，我认为你可以更好地决定，如果我要帮助公司取得成功，我对此感觉良好吗？
Do I feel like this is a company that if it achieves its goals has made the world a better place or not?
我是否觉得这家公司如果实现了其目标，就会让世界变得更美好？
And the more you understand the business model, the better equipped you are to make those decisions with all the information available to you, I think.
我认为，你对商业模式了解得越多，你就越有能力利用所有可用的信息做出这些决策。
That's such an important point.: Today's episode is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude.
这是非常重要的一点。：今天的剧集是由 Claude 背后的团队 Anthropic 为您带来的。
I use Claude at least 10 times a day.
我每天至少使用 Claude 10 次。
I use it for researching my podcast guests, for brainstorming title ideas for both my podcast and my newsletter, for getting feedback on my writing and all kinds of stuff.
我用它来研究我的播客嘉宾，集思广益地讨论我的播客和时事通讯的标题想法，获取关于我的写作和各种东西的反馈。
Just last week, I was preparing for an interview with a very fancy guest, and I had Claude tell me, what are all the questions that other podcast hosts have asked this guest so that I don't ask them these questions?
就在上周，我正准备采访一位非常出色的嘉宾，我让克劳德告诉我，其他播客主持人都问过这位嘉宾哪些问题，这样我就不会问他们这些问题了？
How much time do you spend every week trying to synthesize all of your research insights, support tickets, sales calls, experiment, results, and competitive intel?
您每周花费多少时间来综合您的所有研究见解、支持请求、销售电话、实验、结果和竞争情报？
That's such an important point.: Claude can handle incredibly complex multi-step work.
这是非常重要的一点：克劳德可以处理极其复杂的多步骤工作。
You can throw 100-page strategy document at it and ask it for insights, or you can dump all your user research and ask it to find patterns.
你可以向它扔 100 页的策略文档并要求它提供见解，或者你可以转储所有用户研究并要求它寻找模式。
With Claude 4 and the new integrations, including Claude 4 Opus, the world's best coding model, you get voice conversations, advanced research capabilities, direct Google Workspace integration, and now MCP connections to your custom tools and data sources.
借助 Claude 4 和新的集成（包括世界上最好的编码模型 Claude 4 Opus），您可以获得语音对话、高级研究功能、直接的 Google Workspace 集成，以及现在与自定义工具和数据源的 MCP 连接。
Claude just becomes part of your workflow.
克劳德只是成为您工作流程的一部分。
If you want to try it out, get started at claude.ai/lenny and using this link, you get an incredible 50% off your first three months of the pro plan.
如果您想尝试一下，请从 claude.ai/lenny 开始并使用此链接，您可以在专业计划的前三个月享受令人难以置信的 50% 折扣。
That's claude.ai/lenny.
那是 claude.ai/lenny。
That's such an important point.: Okay, so let's shift to talking about how to actually, what to do.
这是非常重要的一点。：好吧，让我们转向讨论实际上如何做、做什么。
This concept of actions you can take regardless of how your company operates.
无论您的公司如何运营，您都可以采取这一行动概念。
And that first part is really important.
第一部分非常重要。
Something that I've seen you big on is you don't let people have an excuse for not pushing on this.
我看到你很重视的一件事是，你不会让人们有借口不推动这件事。
And we've talked about this in other ways, but just maybe share more of just like you don't have an excuse no matter how your company operates, to not think deeply about this and try to make change.
我们已经以其他方式讨论过这个问题，但也许可以分享更多，就像无论你的公司如何运营，你都没有借口不深入思考这个问题并尝试做出改变。
Matt LeMay: Yeah, I mean, the reality is that most companies that product managers work at aren't big tech companies.
马特·勒梅：是的，我的意思是，现实是大多数产品经理工作的公司都不是大型科技公司。
And when I worked with product teams at those companies, at insurance companies or at banks or at CPG companies, or I worked with a company a while ago that makes audio equipment, which was obviously really fun for me, the first thing they usually tell me is, "Well, we can't do product the right way because we're a regulated industry," or, "because we're B2B," or, "because we have these quarterly earnings targets we need to hit."
当我与这些公司、保险公司、银行或消费品公司的产品团队合作时，或者不久前我与一家生产音频设备的公司合作时（这对我来说显然非常有趣），他们通常告诉我的第一件事是，“好吧，我们不能以正确的方式生产产品，因为我们是一个受监管的行业”，或者“因为我们是 B2B”，或者“因为我们需要达到这些季度盈利目标。”
Matt LeMay: And that always makes me a little sad because yes, there's a way of looking at it where you can say, "All right, if these five famous companies do product management the right way, then anything that puts us in a different situation from those companies must mean that we're doing product management the wrong way," which is demoralizing and distressing, and again, leads people to these kind of quixotic battles of like, "I have to turn a bank into a search engine," which is not going to happen.
马特·勒梅：这总是让我有点难过，因为是的，有一种看待它的方式，你可以说，“好吧，如果这五家著名公司以正确的方式进行产品管理，那么任何使我们处于与这些公司不同的境地的事情都意味着我们以错误的方式进行产品管理，”这令人沮丧和痛苦，并且再次导致人们进行类似的不切实际的战斗，例如“我必须将银行变成搜索引擎”，这是不会的发生。
Matt LeMay: But the other way of looking at it is that those constraints are how you do product management.
Matt LeMay：但从另一种角度来看，这些限制就是你进行产品管理的方式。
Those are what guides you to the commercial decisions you should be making.
这些将指导您做出应该做出的商业决策。
If you're regulated, your competitors are regulated too.
如果您受到监管，那么您的竞争对手也会受到监管。
If you can really understand those constraints, figure out how to work well within them, that's a huge commercial advantage for your business.
如果您能够真正理解这些限制，并弄清楚如何在这些限制内很好地工作，这对您的企业来说是一个巨大的商业优势。
If you're B2B, I honestly prefer working with B2B companies in a lot of situations because they have such immediate access to their customers and they can understand the whole system of their customers and their users and how these things connect in a way that's really immediate and actionable.
如果您是 B2B，老实说，我更喜欢在很多情况下与 B2B 公司合作，因为他们可以立即接触客户，并且可以了解客户和用户的整个系统，以及这些事物如何以真正即时且可操作的方式连接。
Matt LeMay: Similarly, if your company has quarterly financial targets to hit, congratulations, you know what the business really cares about.
马特·勒梅：同样，如果您的公司有季度财务目标要实现，那么恭喜您，您知道企业真正关心的是什么。
You don't have to go looking much farther than that.
您不必走得更远。
You don't necessarily need to cascade that 10 different levels into 45 OKRs if you can do work that you know feeds directly into what the company cares about the most.
如果您知道可以直接做公司最关心的事情，那么您不一定需要将这 10 个不同级别级联为 45 个 OKR。
Matt LeMay: So yes, these things are constraints, but they're the constraints that shape the work that we do.
马特·勒梅：是的，这些都是限制，但它们是塑造我们所做工作的限制。
And if we embrace them as such, if we treat them as guides, not restrictions, if we say we're working with not against the commercial realities of our business, there's so much we can do.
如果我们接受它们，如果我们将它们视为指南而不是限制，如果我们说我们正在合作而不是违背我们业务的商业现实，那么我们可以做很多事情。
There's so much that product managers and product owners and project managers that everybody working on product at every organization can do if we again work with, not against the realities of the companies we work for.
如果我们再次与我们工作的公司合作，而不是违背我们所工作的公司的现实，那么产品经理、产品所有者和项目经理可以做很多事情，每个组织中从事产品工作的每个人都可以做。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So I think that's really empowering.
所以我认为这确实是一种赋权。
You're not saying, "You need to change the way product is built at your company.
您并不是说：“您需要改变公司的产品构建方式。
It's up to you.
这取决于你。
You're an ICPM, it's up to you.
您是 ICPM，这取决于您。
No excuses." What's a simple way to describe what you're actually saying, which I think is going to make people feel a lot better?
没有任何借口。”有什么简单的方法可以描述你实际上所说的内容，我认为这会让人们感觉好很多？
Matt LeMay: What I'm actually saying is that the things you think you're fighting against are usually the things that are giving your work shape, if you let them be.
马特·勒梅：我实际上想说的是，你认为自己正在对抗的事情通常是那些让你的工作成形的事情，如果你顺其自然的话。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Let's talk about, you have three steps, three handy steps to become more of an impact-first product team.
让我们谈谈，你需要三个步骤，三个方便的步骤来成为一个影响力第一的产品团队。
So let's talk through them.
那么让我们来谈谈它们。
What is step one?
什么是第一步？
Matt LeMay: Yeah, so the first step, and I think the most important and where a lot of my work plays out is in setting team goals, close to company goals.
马特·勒梅：是的，所以第一步，我认为最重要的也是我的很多工作的重点是设定接近公司目标的团队目标。
No more than one step away from company goals.
距离公司目标不超过一步。
This idea comes from Christina Wodtke's book Radical Focus.
这个想法来自克里斯蒂娜·沃特克的书《激进焦点》。
She had a great episode on your podcast that I just re-watched for inspiration before I came on here.
她在你的播客上有一集很棒的节目，在我来到这里之前我刚刚重新观看以获得灵感。
Matt LeMay: But in that book, she has this visual where she says that most companies approach cascading OKR as kind of this multi-level, like at the top is company goals, then department goals, then big team goals, then small team goals, and smaller team goals.
马特·勒梅：但在那本书中，她有这样的视觉效果，她说大多数公司将级联 OKR 视为多层次的，就像顶部是公司目标，然后是部门目标，然后是大团队目标，然后是小团队目标和较小的团队目标。
Which leads to the very situation I described where you can't add those small team goals back up to the company goals.
这导致了我所描述的情况，您无法将这些小团队目标添加到公司目标中。
She has a visual that she compares that to, which is the company goal as a center of gravity, and then every other team goal orbiting one level around it.
她有一个与之比较的视觉效果，即公司目标作为重心，然后所有其他团队目标都围绕它运行一个级别。
And this blew my mind when I saw it for the first time, because whether you're doing OKRs or KPIs or north star metrics, whatever framework you're ostensibly using, if you use it well, it looks like that.
当我第一次看到它时，这让我大吃一惊，因为无论你是在做 OKR、KPI 还是北极星指标，无论你表面上使用什么框架，如果你用得好，它看起来都是这样的。
Matt LeMay: I worked with a team a while ago that was a traditional feature team at a FinTech company.
Matt LeMay：不久前我与一个团队合作，这是一家金融科技公司的传统功能团队。
They were the team that was kind of like the team I worked with at MailChimp, kind of given new features to build to take this product and build it more into a multi-product platform.
他们的团队有点像我在 MailChimp 合作的团队，提供了新的功能来构建该产品，并将其更多地构建成一个多产品平台。
And the business would say, "Go build this." They'd build it, they'd celebrate, they'd say, "Go build this." They'd build it, they'd celebrate.
企业会说：“去建造这个吧。”他们会建造它，他们会庆祝，他们会说，“去建造这个。”他们会建造它，他们会庆祝。
And then the business said, "Okay, we're going to do things a little bit differently.
然后企业说：“好吧，我们要做的事情有点不同。
Now we have this top line revenue target.
现在我们有了这个顶线收入目标。
We want to make this much more money next year, and we want you to tell us how you're going to contribute to this."
我们希望明年赚更多的钱，我们希望您告诉我们您将如何为此做出贡献。”
Matt LeMay: And this was a really challenging conversation for this team because as much as people complain about being feature factories, again, it feels safer, right?
Matt LeMay：对于这个团队来说，这是一次非常具有挑战性的对话，因为尽管人们抱怨成为特征工厂，但感觉更安全，对吧？
There's more control over that.
对此有更多的控制。
If you're told what to build, you have a lot more control over whether or not you build it than you do over whether or not it generates revenue.
如果你被告知要构建什么，那么你对是否构建它的控制力比对它是否产生收入的控制力要大得多。
So we started having this conversation, what framework should we use?
所以我们开始讨论，我们应该使用什么框架？
How should we do this?
我们应该怎样做呢？
And I was not asking very good questions.
我并没有问很好的问题。
I was kind of panicking too, to be honest.
说实话，我也有点惊慌。
And then I asked them, I was like, "Okay, why does this team exist, right?
然后我问他们，我想，“好吧，为什么这个团队存在，对吧？
Why are we doing this at all?
我们到底为什么要这样做？
Why is the business investing in this big team to build all these features?
为什么企业要投资这个大团队来构建所有这些功能？
Why do we care if we're a single-product company or a multi-product platform company?"
为什么我们要关心我们是一家单一产品公司还是一家多产品平台公司？”
Matt LeMay: And one of the team leaders said, "Oh, well actually, the customer lifetime value of a multi-product user is much higher than that of a single-product user." I was like, "Oh, do we know how much higher?" And they said, "Yeah, we actually have a number on that." And I was like, "Wow.
Matt LeMay：一位团队领导说：“哦，实际上，多产品用户的客户终身价值比单一产品用户的客户终身价值高得多。”我当时想，“哦，我们知道高多少吗？”他们说：“是的，我们实际上有一个数字。”我当时想，“哇。
So if we had a goal of converting a certain number of single-product users to multi-product users, we know exactly how much revenue is on the line." They were like, "Yeah, I guess so." So we were able to set a goal, and from there we had this conversation about what's the number we would need to hit to make this team feel like a good investment?
因此，如果我们的目标是将一定数量的单产品用户转化为多产品用户，我们就可以准确地知道有多少收入。”他们说：“是的，我想是的。”因此，我们能够设定一个目标，然后我们就需要达到多少目标才能让这支团队感觉是一笔不错的投资？
And we came to a specific number and-
我们得出了一个具体的数字——
Matt LeMay: To make this team feel like a good investment.
马特·勒梅：让这支球队感觉像是一笔不错的投资。
And we came to a specific number and that number informed every decision that was made by that team for the rest of the year.
我们得出了一个具体的数字，这个数字告知了该团队在今年剩余时间里做出的每一个决定。
We said, "By the end of the year, we need to convert this many single product users to multi-product users because if we do that, there's this much additional revenue which contributes this much to the company's top line revenue goal." It's one step away.
我们说，“到今年年底，我们需要将这么多单一产品用户转换为多产品用户，因为如果我们这样做，就会产生大量额外收入，为公司的营收目标做出巨大贡献。”就差一步了。
Matt LeMay: And when they went and shared that goal with company leadership, they got it right away.
马特·勒梅：当他们去与公司领导层分享这个目标时，他们立即就实现了。
They didn't have to say, "Well, why is this valuable?" They didn't have to say, "What are your other OKRs?
他们不必说：“好吧，为什么这很有价值？”他们不必说：“你的其他 OKR 是什么？
Show us the deck." They got it.
给我们看看甲板。”他们明白了。
And that gave them so much leeway to make bolder decisions, to work more closely with other teams to ask for the resources they needed.
这给了他们很大的余地来做出更大胆的决定，与其他团队更密切地合作以获取他们所需的资源。
And that process of arriving at that goal, that goal that is impactful and specific and one step away from what the company cares about the most, is probably the most valuable way I have spent my time with teams of late.
实现这个目标的过程，这个目标是有影响力的、具体的，并且距离公司最关心的事情只有一步之遥，这可能是我最近与团队一起度过的最有价值的方式。
Because once you get to that, you see how everything else flows from there.
因为一旦你做到了这一点，你就会看到其他一切是如何从那里开始的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the implication here is that if it's too far away from people understanding what the hell are you guys even doing to help the business?
Lenny Rachitsky：这里的含义是，如果人们无法理解，你们到底在做什么来帮助业务？
That's the problem you want to avoid.
这就是您想要避免的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: So one extreme is, I don't know, it probably doesn't make sense for your team to have exactly the same goal as the company.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以一个极端是，我不知道，你的团队与公司拥有完全相同的目标可能没有意义。
Say your company's trying to grow a hundred million revenue rate, that's not going to be your team's goal.
假设您的公司正试图提高一亿美元的收入，但这不会是您团队的目标。
So it's almost like that extreme is what's one step away from that?
那么，离这个极端还有一步之遥吗？
What's your contribution to that company goal?
您对公司目标有何贡献？
Lenny Rachitsky: The other end is just some 10 level deep, we're going to improve conversion of this random step, which is going to grow this thing which grows that, and then that grows revenue.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一端只有大约 10 级深，我们将改进这个随机步骤的转换，这将增加这个东西，从而增加那个东西，然后增加收入。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is your guidance on revenue-based goals as goals for teams?
Lenny Rachitsky：您对以收入为基础的团队目标有何指导？
Matt LeMay: I think, again, it depends.
马特·勒梅：我再次认为，这取决于情况。
I know people have very strong opinions about teams should always or should never have revenue-based goals.
我知道人们对团队应该始终或不应该有基于收入的目标有非常强烈的看法。
I don't think it's that simple.
我认为事情没那么简单。
I think sometimes yes, if your company is working towards revenue, having a revenue-based goal makes sense, or at least being able to put some value in terms of revenue on the work that your team is doing.
我认为有时是的，如果您的公司正在努力实现收入，那么制定基于收入的目标是有意义的，或者至少能够为您的团队正在做的工作带来一些收入价值。
I've worked with some startups where they actively are not going after revenue because right now the name of the game is growth, right?
我曾与一些初创公司合作过，他们并不积极追求收入，因为现在游戏的名称是增长，对吧？
They want to show that they have enough users to raise that next round of investment.
他们想表明他们有足够的用户来筹集下一轮投资。
I actually worked with one startup where their revenue was going up, and their number of users was going up, and we had to have a really interesting conversation around which one actually matters to our investors.
事实上，我曾与一家初创公司合作，他们的收入不断增加，用户数量不断增加，我们必须进行一次非常有趣的对话，围绕哪些问题对我们的投资者来说真正重要。
And we kind of wound up developing these two scenarios, the high growth scenario and the low growth scenario.
我们最终开发了这两种情景，即高增长情景和低增长情景。
Matt LeMay: And talking to the product team, it was really clear that there was no way they were going to hit the high growth scenario.
Matt LeMay：与产品团队交谈后，很明显他们不可能实现高增长场景。
So they pivoted to focus on profitability so they could build more runway and raise that next round as a smaller business with a sustainable revenue base.
因此，他们将重点转向盈利能力，这样他们就可以建立更多的跑道，并作为具有可持续收入基础的较小企业筹集下一轮资金。
Matt LeMay: So I get why people are hesitant to commit to revenue goals.
马特·勒梅：所以我明白为什么人们对实现收入目标犹豫不决。
I think that there are certainly situations where revenue goals would be too broad or not exactly what the business needs, but at the end of the day, money is how the impact of most teams is going to be measured.
我认为，在某些情况下，收入目标肯定会过于宽泛，或者不完全符合业务需求，但归根结底，金钱是衡量大多数团队影响力的方式。
And if you don't have a point of view on why your team is a good investment, either in the money return it brings, or in another return that is equally or more important to the business, then again, that feels like a tenuous and risky position to be in.
如果你不知道为什么你的团队是一项很好的投资，无论是在它带来的金钱回报上，还是在对业务同等或更重要的其他回报上，那么，这又感觉像是一个脆弱且危险的处境。
Lenny Rachitsky: To kind of get people's brains noodling in the right direction.
Lenny Rachitsky：让人们的大脑朝着正确的方向思考。
What are some examples of good goals, like specific goals that your teams have set that are one step away from a company goal?
有哪些好的目标的例子，比如您的团队设定的距离公司目标仅一步之遥的具体目标？
What are just some examples without naming companies?
只举了一些例子，但没有透露公司名称？
Matt LeMay: I have a story to tell to that effect, which also sets up the second step here, which is to keep impact first at every step.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：为此我有一个故事要讲，它也设置了第二步，即在每一步中首先保持影响力。
Matt LeMay: So, I worked with a growth team at a tech company that is beloved by many the people.
Matt LeMay：所以，我在一家深受很多人喜爱的科技公司的增长团队中工作。
And I was brought on to help them set OKRs, right?
我被请来帮助他们制定 OKR，对吧？
The company was doing OKRs across the board, and this team was going to set its growth OKRs.
公司正在全面制定 OKR，而这个团队将设定其增长 OKR。
So they had done a lot of reading, a lot of research into how to do OKRs the right way.
因此，他们进行了大量的阅读和研究，研究如何以正确的方式制定 OKR。
They had read, unfortunately, they had not read Radical Focus or they hopefully would've done things differently, they had read a lot of other books.
不幸的是，他们读过，但他们没有读过《激进焦点》，或者希望他们会做不同的事情，他们读过很多其他书籍。
They had printed out a lot of articles and they said, "We're going to make sure we get this right.
他们打印了很多文章，他们说：“我们将确保我们做对了。
We're going to put together a slide deck that has five to seven objectives with five to seven key results each, and each key result is going to have an owner and we're going to make sure that people are accountable for it.
我们将制作一个幻灯片，其中有五到七个目标，每个目标有五到七个关键结果，每个关键结果都有一个所有者，我们将确保人们对其负责。
And we're going to really, really do this the right way.
我们将真正、真正以正确的方式来做这件事。
We're going to get that middle piece perfect."
我们将使中间部分变得完美。”
Matt LeMay: So they spent a long time working on these OKRs, OKR season ends.
Matt LeMay：所以他们花了很长时间来研究这些 OKR，OKR 赛季结束了。
They file away the OKR deck not to be seen until the next OKR season.
他们将 OKR 套牌归档，直到下一个 OKR 赛季才能看到。
We reconvene, and spend a whole day scoring all of the OKRs.
我们重新召集，花了一整天的时间对所有 OKR 进行评分。
And there are heated conversations about what's a 0.6 versus a 0.7?
关于 0.6 和 0.7 是什么？存在激烈的讨论。
Is this a 0.9?
这是0.9吗？
Who really should be the owner of this key result?
谁真正应该成为这个关键结果的所有者？
Who contributed the most to it?
谁对此贡献最大？
And we get through this whole conversation, everyone's tired.
我们完成了整个谈话，每个人都很累。
And I'm like, "There's just one question I need to ask.
我想，“我只需要问一个问题。
I'm so sorry to do this to y'all, but how does this all add up to the company level growth goals?"
我很抱歉对你们这样做，但这一切如何实现公司层面的增长目标呢？”
Matt LeMay: People look around and they're like, "Well, that wasn't what we did.
马特·勒梅：人们环顾四周，他们会说，“好吧，我们不是这么做的。
We set our team level OKRs and we went through the process and we made sure, and we followed the OKRs, we thought about the OKRs," and I said, "Yeah, but the company has a goal of let's call it bringing on a million new users in this year.
我们设定了团队级别的 OKR，我们完成了整个流程，我们确保了，我们遵循了 OKR，我们考虑了 OKR，”我说，“是的，但是公司的目标是在今年吸引 100 万新用户。
We're a growth team.
我们是一支成长型团队。
How many users did we bring on?"
我们带来了多少用户？”
Matt LeMay: And there's a moment of silence.
马特·勒梅：然后是一阵沉默。
And the leader of this team's a really, really good leader.
这个团队的领导者是一位非常非常好的领导者。
She stands and she's like, "Okay, we're going to do things differently." She steps up to the whiteboard, puts 1 million on the right end of the whiteboard, draws a line, "This is the year," draws a little tick on the line.
她站起来说：“好吧，我们要采取不同的做法。”她走到白板前，在白板右端写下 100 万，画一条线，“今年，”在线上画了一个小勾。
"This is where we are now.
“这就是我们现在所处的位置。
It's a smaller number than a million.
这个数字还不到一百万。
This is where we need to get to.
这就是我们需要到达的地方。
If our conversation doesn't start with this, I don't want to have the conversation.
如果我们的谈话不是以此开始的，我不想进行谈话。
And if you are 51% sure that a different approach is going to get us 1% closer, I expect you to advocate for that approach.
如果你有 51% 的把握认为不同的方法将使我们的差距缩小 1%，我希望你会提倡这种方法。
And this is now how we are going to do everything."
这就是我们现在做一切事情的方式。”
Matt LeMay: And I think about that all the time, because it's subtracting steps.
马特·勒梅：我一直在思考这个问题，因为它正在减少步骤。
It's making things less complicated.
它让事情变得不那么复杂。
It actually is doing exactly what you described.
它实际上正在做你所描述的事情。
It's saying, "This is what the company cares about.
它说：“这就是公司关心的事情。
We're the growth team.
我们是成长团队。
We need to figure out how everything we're doing contributes to this."
我们需要弄清楚我们所做的一切如何为此做出贡献。”
Matt LeMay: That story really stuck with me because it seems like it should be obvious, right?
马特·勒梅：这个故事真的让我印象深刻，因为它看起来应该是显而易见的，对吧？
If you're the growth team at a company with a growth goal, obviously that's going to be something you care about.
如果你是一家有增长目标的公司的增长团队，显然这将是你关心的事情。
But it's so easy in the day-to-day work of setting these intermediate goals, of doing strategy, of doing the things we do to make things just a little bit more complicated than they need to be.
但在日常工作中，设定这些中间目标、制定战略、做我们所做的事情，让事情变得比需要的更复杂一点，是很容易的。
So for this particular team and this particular moment, a good goal was looking at the company level goal and saying, "If we're the team that's driving growth, we're accountable for this.
因此，对于这个特定的团队和这个特定的时刻，一个好的目标是着眼于公司层面的目标，并说：“如果我们是推动增长的团队，我们就对此负责。
We're going to step up and we're going to do everything we can to make sure, the company meets its ambition."
我们将挺身而出，竭尽全力确保公司实现其雄心壮志。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's so obvious if you come at it from the perspective you shared earlier.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你从你之前分享的角度来看待这个问题，那就很明显了。
If you're the CEO, would you fund this team?
如果你是首席执行官，你会资助这个团队吗？
If you see our goal is a million users, this team will drive us a hundred thousand users.
如果你看到我们的目标是一百万用户，那么这个团队将为我们带来十万用户。
Assuming that's a lot for you.
假设这对你来说已经很多了。
Obviously we want that team to do great and we're going to give them the resources to do that.
显然，我们希望该团队表现出色，并且我们将为他们提供实现这一目标的资源。
They're going to contribute meaningfully to this goal.
他们将为这一目标做出有意义的贡献。
It's very obvious as you see it.
正如你所看到的，这是非常明显的。
The trick is a lot of people think they're doing that and they're not.
诀窍在于很多人认为他们正在这样做，但实际上却没有。
Maybe one heuristic I think about as you're talking is just like, how do you know if you're doing this?
也许当你说话时我想到的一个启发是，你怎么知道你是否在这样做？
There should be a very simple spreadsheet formula of just here's the company goal, here's your goal.
应该有一个非常简单的电子表格公式，其中包括公司目标和您的目标。
There should be one simple formula that translates up that adds to it.
应该有一个简单的公式可以将其相加。
Matt LeMay: One Y statement and or one mathematical operator is usually the way I think about it.
Matt LeMay：我通常的想法是一个 Y 语句和/或一个数学运算符。
Matt LeMay: In some cases, like the story I told about that FinTech company, it's something like upgraded users.
马特·勒梅：在某些情况下，就像我讲述的关于金融科技公司的故事一样，这就像升级的用户。
That's one step, right?
这是一步，对吧？
You multiply that by the increased customer lifetime value.
您可以将其乘以增加的客户终身价值。
In some cases, it's a smaller unit of the same thing.
在某些情况下，它是同一事物的较小单位。
So it's a subset of the revenue or growth that the company's trying to deliver.
因此，它是公司试图实现的收入或增长的一部分。
Matt LeMay: I worked with a company recently that had a team rebuilding their ad tech platform.
Matt LeMay：我最近与一家公司合作，该公司的团队正在重建其广告技术平台。
This is a big company that does a lot of different things, and at the heart of all of their different offerings is this ad tech platform.
这是一家从事许多不同业务的大公司，其所有不同产品的核心就是这个广告技术平台。
And I was brought on to do a day long workshop with this company because this was a really important team and they were struggling to figure out what success looked like.
我被邀请与这家公司一起参加为期一天的研讨会，因为这是一个非常重要的团队，他们正在努力弄清楚成功是什么样子。
Matt LeMay: So I said, "Okay, what are your goals?" And they said, "Here's the deck with our goals." I said, "That's a lot of goals.
马特·勒梅：所以我说，“好吧，你的目标是什么？”他们说：“这是我们目标的牌组。”我说：“这是很多目标。
I wouldn't be able to make decisions with those goals." They said, "Oh wait, wait, wait, no, we also have a Miro board.
我将无法根据这些目标做出决定。”他们说：“哦等等，等等，等等，不，我们还有一块 Miro 板。
We went through this and we decided the deck was too much.
我们经历了这个，我们认为套牌太多了。
So we also have a Miro board," but as Miro boards tend to do, it kind of grew and grew and grew in all directions.
所以我们也有一个 Miro 板，”但正如 Miro 板倾向于做的那样，它在各个方向上不断发展、不断发展。
So now it's a big board.
所以现在它是一个大板。
Turned out they had two Miro boards because they had tried to do this twice.
结果他们有两个 Miro 板，因为他们已经尝试过两次。
Matt LeMay: So we sat down and we did this really interesting kind of subtractive exercise, where everybody got a post-it note to write down what they think the most important goal of the team is.
马特·勒梅：所以我们坐下来，做了一个非常有趣的减法练习，每个人都得到了一张便利贴，写下他们认为团队最重要的目标是什么。
And then they would pair up and they would have to make it smaller each time, make it more concise.
然后他们会配对，每次都必须缩小它，使其更简洁。
If there were two things, get it down to one thing.
如果有两件事，就把它归结为一件事。
If there were 10 words, bring it down to eight words, make it smaller and more concise each time.
如果有10个字，就减少到8个字，每次都变得更小、更简洁。
Matt LeMay: And we came up with two options.
马特·勒梅：我们提出了两个选择。
One was build a fantastic, wonderful, magical, beautiful platform to increase our team's profits by 20%.
一是建立一个梦幻般的、美妙的、神奇的、美丽的平台，使我们团队的利润增加 20%。
Fair enough.
很公平。
The other one was, build a stupendous, wonderful, fantastic platform to increase our team's profits in the next financial year from 20 million pounds to a hundred million pounds.
另一个是，建立一个巨大的、精彩的、梦幻般的平台，将我们团队在下一个财政年度的利润从 2000 万英镑增加到 1 亿英镑。
Matt LeMay: And I'm looking at these and I'm like, "Okay, so we know that there is an expectation of revenue here.
马特·勒梅：我看着这些，我想，“好吧，所以我们知道这里有收入预期。
There's an expectation that we will drive profitability, but one of these is 20% and the other is 500%.
人们期望我们能够提高盈利能力，但其中一个是 20%，另一个是 500%。
Where do these numbers come from?" And the folks who had said 20%, they were like, "That feels like a good return." And what's interesting was when I was telling the story, when I was giving some talks recently, and people would kind of laugh like, "Oh, they named the wrong number." But they were so brave to do that, and them saying 20% is what actually unlocked the conversation at the team level, because somebody else in the room heard that and said, "Wait, I do remember something about profits.
这些数字从何而来？”那些说 20% 的人会说，“这感觉是一个不错的回报。”有趣的是，当我讲这个故事时，当我最近做一些演讲时，人们会笑，“哦，他们命名错误了。”但他们非常勇敢地这样做，他们说 20% 才是真正开启团队层面对话的因素，因为房间里的其他人听到了这句话并说：“等等，我确实记得一些关于利润的事情。
There was some target we were supposed to hit, but I think I remember it being a lot bigger than that." And they actually went back and found a town hall that their VP had given and buried in a slide in that town hall was this hundred million pound profit target by the end of the next financial year.
我们应该达到一些目标，但我想我记得它比这个目标大得多。”他们实际上回去发现了他们的副总裁给的一个市政厅，并埋在市政厅的一张幻灯片中，就是下一个财政年度结束前一亿英镑的利润目标。
Matt LeMay: So they have this number and they start to go like, "Oh gosh, that's a lot, but it's a whole financial year.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：所以他们有了这个数字，然后他们开始说，“哦天哪，这很多，但这是一个完整的财政年度。
It'll be fine." And we do, again, inspired by that leader I worked with, I just put this out on a whiteboard.
会没事的。”我们再次受到与我共事的领导者的启发，我只是将其放在白板上。
I'm like, "All right, a hundred million in profits by the end of the next financial year right now we're here.
我想，“好吧，到下一个财政年度结束时我们已经实现了一亿利润。
What else should be on this timeline?" Somebody said, "Well, we're launching this in October." So I put October up there.
这个时间线上还应该有什么？”有人说：“好吧，我们将在 10 月份推出这个产品。”所以我把十月放在那里。
I go, "Okay, so if we don't ship anything until October, and right now it's March, how much profit do we make until?" And they said, "About 10 million." I'm like, "Okay.
我说：“好吧，如果我们直到 10 月才发货，而现在是 3 月，那么我们能赚多少利润？”他们说：“大约一千万。”我想，“好吧。
So that means that between October and March, we need to generate 90 million pounds of profits."
因此，这意味着从 10 月到 3 月，我们需要产生 9000 万英镑的利润。”
Matt LeMay: And this team, I was worried they were going to freak out or they were going to be like, "Oh, we can't do this.
马特·勒梅：这个团队，我担心他们会惊慌失措，或者他们会说，“哦，我们不能这样做。
It's impossible." But they were like, "Okay, it's time to step up.
这是不可能的。”但他们的反应是：“好吧，是时候站出来了。
It's time to do all these things that we need to do.
是时候做我们需要做的所有这些事情了。
We need to ship sooner.
我们需要尽快发货。
We need to do more validation.
我们需要做更多的验证。
We need to do more testing.
我们需要做更多的测试。
Can we commercialize things sooner?
我们可以更快地将东西商业化吗？
Can we do more discovery to make sure that this is really going to have the impact we need to have?
我们能否做更多的发现来确保这确实会产生我们需要的影响？
Why are we doing this whole big relaunch?
我们为什么要进行整个大规模的重新启动？
Why don't we rebuild individual things?
我们为什么不重建个别的东西呢？
What impact will we have if we brought more people in top of funnel now?
如果我们现在让更多的人进入渠道顶部，将会产生什么影响？
Can we begin building our user base and then upgrade that user base?
我们可以开始建立我们的用户群，然后升级该用户群吗？
What are the trade-offs if we do that versus if we bring people in?"
如果我们这样做与引进人员相比，有哪些权衡？”
Matt LeMay: All those things that I think is really the heart and the intent of these best practices.
Matt LeMay：我认为所有这些都是这些最佳实践的核心和意图。
They came to life because this team had clarity.
他们之所以能活起来，是因为这个团队思路清晰。
They understood like, "Okay, we are accountable for something which is specific enough to drive some real urgency, and which is impactful enough that we have to get out there and do all these things that we're supposed to do."
他们的理解是，“好吧，我们所负责的事情足够具体，足以推动一些真正的紧迫性，并且有足够的影响力，我们必须走出去，做所有我们应该做的事情。”
Matt LeMay: So that to me, is a really good example of how if you start with this question of like, well, what's expected of this team?
马特·勒梅：所以对我来说，这是一个很好的例子，如果你从这个问题开始，比如，对这支球队的期望是什么？
What does success look like for us?
对我们来说，成功是什么样的？
It'll often lead you to the right neighborhood of what kind of unit of measure you want to look for, how the business is going to look to you, whether they're looking directly at revenue, whether they're looking at something else.
它通常会引导您找到正确的邻域，了解您想要寻找哪种计量单位、您对业务的看法、他们是否直接关注收入，是否在关注其他内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
These stories are awesome.
这些故事很棒。
So basically, so far, the two steps that you've illustrated here of doing this correctly, step one is set team goals that are close to company goals.
基本上，到目前为止，您在这里展示的正确执行此操作的两个步骤，第一步是设定接近公司目标的团队目标。
And then step two is, do this at every step of the product building process.
第二步是在产品构建过程的每个步骤中执行此操作。
It's not just a one-time thing at the beginning.
这不仅仅是一开始的一次性事情。
Matt LeMay: Right.
马特·李梅：对。
As you're doing OKRs, like that team I talked about, when you're thinking about your company strategy, when you're writing epics, whatever it is, keep that impactful goal top of mind.
当你在做 OKR 时，就像我谈到的那个团队一样，当你思考你的公司战略时，当你写史诗时，无论是什么，都要把那个有影响力的目标放在首位。
Don't let it slip away.
不要让它溜走。
Don't let it get cascaded into oblivion.
不要让它被遗忘。
Lenny Rachitsky: Because to your point, the examples you shared where you think you're just like, "Cool, we have our goal, let's go." And then you spend months doing this thing and then you forget, okay, this actually got disconnected from the company goal.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为就你的观点而言，你分享的例子让你觉得自己就像是，“酷，我们有我们的目标，我们走吧。”然后你花了几个月的时间做这件事，然后你忘记了，好吧，这实际上与公司的目标脱节了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Everything you've worked hard to do is just, no one cares.
Lenny Rachitsky：你努力做的每一件事都只是，没有人在乎。
Matt LeMay: Step three is to connect every bit of work back to impact.
马特·勒梅：第三步是将每一项工作都联系起来产生影响。
So this is when we get to the prioritization piece, right.
所以这就是我们讨论优先级的时候了，对吧。
Matt LeMay: So impact estimation is something that is written about quite well, quite extensively in product management stuff, but it's something that it's easy to not do.
Matt LeMay：因此，影响评估在产品管理方面已经被写得很详细、很广泛，但很容易不去做。
I work with a lot of teams that want to know, again, the right best practice for doing prioritization, whether that's should we use ICE or RICE or MoSCoW or whatever it is, what's the right way to do prioritization?
我与很多团队合作，他们想再次了解确定优先级的正确最佳实践，我们是否应该使用 ICE、RICE、MoSCoW 或者其他什么，确定优先级的正确方法是什么？
And again, it depends, but if you don't have a clear and specific sense of what impact means, you can't really prioritize effectively.
再说一次，这取决于情况，但如果你对影响的含义没有清晰而具体的认识，你就无法真正有效地确定优先顺序。
So this is where, again, everything comes back to that first step of the way you set goals.
因此，这又是一切回到你设定目标的第一步的地方。
Matt LeMay: So that team I told you about that had the goal of converting single product users to multi-product users, one of the product managers on that team came back to me a few months later and said, "Hey, Matt, I could really use your help figuring out how to do prioritization.
马特·勒梅：我告诉过你的那个团队的目标是将单一产品用户转换为多产品用户，几个月后，该团队的一位产品经理回来对我说：“嘿，马特，我真的需要你的帮助来弄清楚如何确定优先级。
Should we do ICE?
我们应该做ICE吗？
Should we do RICE?
我们应该做RICE吗？
Should we do MoSCoW?
我们应该参加莫斯科大会吗？
I put together an ICE matrix where I scored impact and I scored certainty and I scored effort, and I multiplied each one by each one, and I have a list of the things we should do."
我整理了一个 ICE 矩阵，对影响力、确定性和努力程度进行了评分，然后将每一项都相乘，我就列出了我们应该做的事情。”
Matt LeMay: And I said, "That's awesome." And I do really think it's awesome when people take the initiative to do the thing to say, "I put this together, let's walk through it." So when they showed me this, I said, "Let's start with impact." They're like, "Okay, well here's the score for each one." I was like, "What's the score?" They're like, "Oh, it's a lot of different things." And I said, "Okay, well, we have a team goal of a certain specific number of users we need to convert by the end of the year, so let's try to express impact as a function of that goal.
马特·勒梅：我说，“那太棒了。”我确实认为，当人们主动说“我把这些放在一起，让我们一起来看看”时，这真是太棒了。所以当他们向我展示这个时，我说：“让我们从影响力开始。”他们会说，“好吧，这是每个人的分数。”我当时想，“分数是多少？”他们会说，“哦，有很多不同的事情。”我说：“好吧，我们的团队目标是在年底前转换一定数量的用户，所以让我们尝试将影响力表达为该目标的函数。
So rather than an abstract score, what is the most number of users we could convert in each of these different scenarios?"
因此，我们在每种不同场景中可以转化的最多用户数量是多少，而不是抽象分数？”
Matt LeMay: And understandably, they were kind of like, "Oh, you know what?
马特·勒梅：可以理解的是，他们有点像，“哦，你知道吗？
I don't know exactly." I'm like, "Let's, just work through it.
我不太清楚。”我想，“让我们解决这个问题吧。
We don't have to be precise.
我们不必精确。
It's called impact estimation, not impact getting perfect number." So for one of them, they were like, "Well, we can do this landing page." I'm like, "Okay, well how many people hit the landing page?" And they were like, "Not that many, maybe a few hundred." I'm like, "Okay, cool.
这称为影响评估，而不是影响获得完美数字。”所以对于其中一个人来说，他们就像，“好吧，我们可以做这个登陆页面。”我想，“好吧，有多少人点击了登陆页面？”他们说，“没那么多，也许几百个。”我想，“好吧，酷。
So that's maybe a few hundred."
所以这可能是几百个。”
Matt LeMay: And there was one thing which they were really reluctant.
马特·勒梅：有一件事他们真的很不愿意。
It had a high effort score and a medium certainty score.
它具有较高的努力分数和中等的确定性分数。
And what they basically said was like, "Look, if we really wanted to do this, we could redesign the entire onboarding experience.
他们基本上说的是，“看，如果我们真的想这样做，我们可以重新设计整个入职体验。
We can make it so that rather than us trying to retroactively shuttle people into multi-product usage, we can understand them when they join and get them into the right category of user right away."
我们可以做到这一点，这样我们就可以在人们加入时了解他们，并立即将他们纳入正确的用户类别，而不是试图追溯性地将人们转移到多种产品的使用中。”
Matt LeMay: I'm like, "That sounds amazing." What's the most impact that could have?
马特·勒梅：我想，“这听起来棒极了。”可能产生的最大影响是什么？
They were like, "It would get us all the way there if we did it right, but we'd have to work with these other teams and we'd have to work with marketing.
他们说，“如果我们做对了，我们就能一路走到那一步，但我们必须与其他团队合作，我们必须与营销合作。
And there are so many dependencies and so many things outside of our control that we don't know if we could do it." And I said, "That's okay.
而且有太多的依赖性和太多我们无法控制的事情，我们不知道我们是否可以做到。”我说：“没关系。
These are the trade-offs we make as product managers, you will have some things to work on that are going to have less impact, but might be easier and more certain to deliver.
这些是我们作为产品经理所做的权衡，你将需要做一些影响较小的事情，但可能会更容易、更确定地交付。
But if this thing could get us all the way there, if it's really the only thing we're looking at, which has really any chance of getting us to our goal, which remember we came up with to answer the question, what does this team need to deliver to be a good investment for the business, then I think it's worth going for it.
但如果这件事能让我们一路走到那里，如果它真的是我们唯一关注的事情，它真的有机会让我们实现我们的目标，记住我们想出回答这个问题，这个团队需要提供什么才能成为对业务的良好投资，那么我认为这是值得的。
Matt LeMay: "It's worth having those conversations with other product teams.
Matt LeMay：“与其他产品团队进行这些对话是值得的。
It's worth talking to folks in marketing.
值得与营销人员交谈。
It's worth stretching ourselves a little bit and saying, 'This is going to be challenging to do, but if we can do it, we can really deliver on something which we're going to feel great about.'"
值得我们稍微伸展一下自己，并说：‘这将是一项挑战，但如果我们能做到，我们就能真正实现一些让我们感觉很棒的事情。’”
Matt LeMay: So the way that third step manifests itself the most frequently, tactically is are we estimating and measuring impact in the same unit of measure as our goals?
马特·勒梅：因此，第三步在战术上最常见的表现方式是，我们是否以与我们的目标相同的衡量单位来估计和衡量影响？
Because if we're doing that, then we're keeping ourselves honest and we're saying, "Does this actually have a chance of contributing?" Whereas again, if we get really clever and we come up with a proprietary scoring system and all these little intermediate steps, we can feel like we're doing really awesome work and being very, very terribly smart.
因为如果我们这样做，那么我们就保持诚实，我们会说：“这真的有机会做出贡献吗？”然而，如果我们真的很聪明，我们想出了一个专有的评分系统和所有这些小的中间步骤，我们就会觉得我们正在做非常出色的工作，并且非常非常聪明。
But we again, run the risk that we are going to lose our connection with why we're setting about to do this work in the first place.
但我们再次冒着可能会失去与我们最初开始做这项工作的原因的联系的风险。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such an important and often easily overlooked point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常重要且经常容易被忽视的观点。
This idea that when you're doing RICE or whatever version of ICE that you do, that impact should be based on impact to your goal, which is one level removed from the company goal.
这个想法是，当你在做 RICE 或你做的任何版本的 ICE 时，这种影响应该基于对你的目标的影响，这与公司目标相差一个级别。
It feels so obvious as you talk about it, and I hope most people know this, but I feel like that's something people forget.
当你谈论它时，感觉很明显，我希望大多数人都知道这一点，但我觉得人们忘记了这一点。
Just like, what is impact?
就像什么是影响力？
Oh yeah, customers will be happier.
哦，是的，顾客会更高兴。
Matt LeMay: Again, this is not easy work, right?
马特·勒梅：再说一次，这不是一件容易的事，对吧？
Working in product means that we have so many different perspectives, so many different folks who have so many different priorities.
从事产品工作意味着我们有很多不同的观点，很多不同的人有很多不同的优先事项。
The stakeholder management piece of this is relentless and exhausting, and it's really, really easy to lose sight of this stuff.
利益相关者的管理工作是无情且令人疲惫的，而且真的很容易忽视这些东西。
And it takes work and discipline and as you said, bravery to keep bringing it back.
这需要努力和纪律，正如你所说，需要勇气才能继续恢复它。
But I think again, it is not only the right thing to do, but it helps you at the end of the day, have a little bit more of a boundary between the work you're doing at your job and the stuff you're good at in your life.
但我再次认为，这不仅是正确的做法，而且最终可以帮助你在工作中所做的工作和生活中你擅长的事情之间有更多的界限。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of boundaries, a lot of the advice you share will involve people saying no, and pushing back, and convincing people they're wrong, which is very hard.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到界限，你分享的很多建议都会涉及到人们说不、反击、说服人们他们错了，这是非常困难的。
That's not a natural happy place for most people.
对于大多数人来说，那并不是一个自然快乐的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: What advice do you have?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你有什么建议？
What have you learned works well for pushing back, helping people see how they're not...
你所学到的知识可以很好地进行反击，帮助人们了解他们为什么不......
What they want you to build is wrong.
他们想要你建造的东西是错误的。
Matt LeMay: So this is where I have the benefit, I suppose, of being a conflict-averse, people pleaser.
马特·勒梅：所以我想，这就是我的好处，因为我是一个厌恶冲突、讨人喜欢的人。
So I've been through this, and I think the thing I am proudest of saying in product management and practice is that if you're doing product management really well, you never have to say yes and you never have to say no. You're giving people options and you're helping them understand the trade-offs.
所以我经历过这个，我认为在产品管理和实践中我最自豪地说的是，如果你把产品管理做得非常好，你永远不必说“是”，也永远不必说“不”。你为人们提供了选择，并帮助他们理解权衡。
Matt LeMay: So in keeping with this idea that there are things outside of your control, as a product manager, you're not always going to be the one who makes the decision.
Matt LeMay：因此，根据“有些事情是你无法控制的”这个想法，作为一名产品经理，你并不总是做出决定的人。
There are going to be other people who come to you and say, "Build this," or who say, "I don't see the value in that.
会有其他人来找你说，“构建这个”，或者说，“我看不到其中的价值。
Do this, do that.
做这个，做那个。
I want this, I want that." If those people are in a position of formal authority in the organization, I've certainly never had luck telling them no.
我想要这个，我想要那个。”如果这些人在组织中处于正式的权威地位，我当然从来没有幸运地拒绝过他们。
Matt LeMay: Furthermore, I've found myself in situations where they just know things that I don't know.
马特·勒梅：此外，我发现自己处于一种情况，他们只知道我不知道的事情。
Where they're pursuing an acquisition, so there are certain things that we have to do or can't do.
当他们寻求收购时，我们必须做或不能做某些事情。
Where there's some serious financial challenge that they're working their way through right now, which is shifting around priorities, but they are not at liberty to discuss that with the broader organization.
他们现在正在努力解决一些严重的财务挑战，优先事项正在发生变化，但他们无权与更广泛的组织讨论这一问题。
It is quite possible that the folks who are asking you to do things that don't make sense, have access to information that you don't.
那些要求你做没有意义的事情的人很可能获得了你无法获得的信息。
And that in trying to convince them otherwise, you are not only going to fail, but you are going to lose some of that trust and degrade that relationship that could in time be really important for you.
如果你试图说服他们，你不仅会失败，而且会失去一些信任，并降低这种对你来说非常重要的关系。
So I think the challenge is to say, "All right, you want me to build this thing?
所以我认为挑战在于说：“好吧，你想让我建造这个东西吗？
Maybe.
或许。
Let's look at the different things."
让我们看看不同的事情。”
Matt LeMay: If you're going through these steps, if you say, "I understand, here's what our team's goals are, here's the stuff we're prioritizing, here's the impact we think it could have." If you're coming to me with something which is going to have more impact, heck yeah, I would love to build that.
马特·勒梅：如果你正在执行这些步骤，如果你说，“我明白，这是我们团队的目标是什么，这是我们优先考虑的事情，这是我们认为它可能产生的影响。”如果你带着一些会产生更大影响的东西来找我，是的，我很乐意建造它。
That sounds amazing.
听起来很神奇。
Matt LeMay: But if it has an unclear impact or if it doesn't tie into this, then we might need to adjust the impact we're seeking to have.
马特·勒梅：但如果它的影响不明确或者与此无关，那么我们可能需要调整我们寻求的影响。
If this is suddenly really important, as with that story that was told in the book, right?
如果这突然变得非常重要，就像书中讲述的那个故事一样，对吧？
Sometimes it's like, all right, we got to do this.
有时就像，好吧，我们必须这样做。
Sure.
当然。
That means that our impact projection is going to have to be adjusted this much.
这意味着我们的影响预测将不得不进行如此大的调整。
Matt LeMay: You're not saying no, you're not saying yes.
马特·勒梅：你既没有说不，也没有说是。
You're helping someone who is in a position to make a decision, understand the trade-offs that go into that decision.
您正在帮助有能力做出决定的人了解该决定中的权衡。
And again, if you can do that, you're going to go home at the end of the day feeling better.
再说一遍，如果你能做到这一点，一天结束时你回家时会感觉更好。
You're going to feel less like you lost a battle or that you were overridden by an unjust tyrant, and it's going to be more like, "Okay, I made sure they had all the information I would want to have if I were making that decision.
你不会觉得自己输掉了一场战斗，或者被不公正的暴君凌驾了地位，而更像是，“好吧，我确保他们掌握了我做出决定时想要的所有信息。
That decision is ultimately theirs to make, and I'm going to do the best I can."
这个决定最终由他们来做，我会尽力而为。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Tell me if you disagree.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你不同意，请告诉我。
In my experience, you also want to recommend a path.
根据我的经验，你还想推荐一条路径。
Because a lot of people don't want PMs just, "Here's all the options.
因为很多人不只是想要产品经理，“这里有所有的选择。
I have no opinion, no bias of any kind.
我没有任何意见，没有任何偏见。
You decide." I find that people want you to have a perspective.
你决定。”我发现人们希望你有自己的观点。
Matt LeMay: Absolutely.
马特·李梅：当然。
Options and a recommendation is kind of the magic formula.
选项和推荐是一种神奇的公式。
I did when I was working with MailChimp, we actually did a workshop with all the product managers at the company where we had people roleplay trying to sell in a single option versus multiple options with a recommendation.
当我在 MailChimp 工作时，我们实际上与公司的所有产品经理一起举办了一个研讨会，我们让人们进行角色扮演，试图以单一选项与带有推荐的多个选项进行销售。
And it was amazing how when you present a single option, people's instinct is just to, well, I don't know, you start poking holes in it.
令人惊奇的是，当你提出一个选项时，人们的本能就是，嗯，我不知道，你开始在其中找出漏洞。
Not because you're a jerk, but because-
不是因为你是个混蛋，而是因为——
Matt LeMay: You start poking holes in it, not because you're a jerk, but because you're looking at one thing and you're like, "Oh, well, what about this?
马特·勒梅：你开始在其中找出漏洞，不是因为你是个混蛋，而是因为你在看一件事，然后你会想，“哦，好吧，这个怎么样？
What about that?"
那又怎么样？”
Matt LeMay: Again, all of your own anxieties and fears and the things that you don't feel represented in there, and where you're worried, "What if this happens?
马特·勒梅：再说一遍，你自己所有的焦虑和恐惧，以及你感觉没有代表的事情，以及你担心的地方，“如果发生这种情况怎么办？
What if that happens?"
如果发生这种情况怎么办？”
Matt LeMay: All of that kind of detracts from the momentum, whereas if you come in and say, "Here are three options, here are the trade-offs, here's the one we recommend," then every little bit of back and forth makes those options clearer and stronger.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：所有这些都会削弱动力，而如果你进来并说，“这里有三个选择，这是权衡，这是我们推荐的一个”，那么每一点来回都会使这些选择变得更加清晰和强大。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like people might miss that nuance, in the way we talked about it, so I think that's a really important point to make there.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得人们可能会错过我们谈论它的方式中的细微差别，所以我认为这是一个非常重要的观点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me come back to the three steps, just for folks that are, "Cool, I'm excited, I'm motivated.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我回到这三个步骤，只是针对那些“酷，我很兴奋，我有动力”的人。
I'm going to change the way we operate." I'll summarize real quick.
我将改变我们的运作方式。”我会很快总结。
Lenny Rachitsky: So step one is, set team goals close to company goals.
Lenny Rachitsky：第一步是设定接近公司目标的团队目标。
Step two is keep impact first at every step.
第二步是在每一步中保持影响力第一。
Don't forget, as you're building throughout the year.
不要忘记，因为您全年都在建设。
And then, step three is connect every bit of work back to impact.
然后，第三步是将每一项工作联系起来产生影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think, again, it's important to remind people, this may be hard and annoying, and maybe things are going fine.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为，再次提醒人们很重要，这可能很难而且烦人，也许事情进展顺利。
Everyone's telling you what to build, you're building and shipping, and things are, it seems to be going all right.
每个人都在告诉你要建造什么，你正在建造和运输，事情似乎进展顺利。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think an important part of this is just, if you believe what you're building is not helping the business grow and succeed, either, they'll let you go someday, because you're not doing something that matters.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为其中一个重要的部分是，如果你认为你正在构建的东西也不能帮助业务发展和成功，他们有一天会让你离开，因为你没有做重要的事情。
Or the business will not work out, and you'll be in trouble.
否则生意就不会顺利，你就会有麻烦。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's like, even if you don't want to do this something, you need to really seriously think about this, even though it's really hard.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，即使你不想做这件事，你也需要认真考虑一下，尽管这真的很难。
Lenny Rachitsky: But maybe let me just think of that a little bit.
Lenny Rachitsky：但也许让我想一下。
Say the business is doing great, everything's great.
说生意做得很好，一切都很好。
The CEO's telling you all the things to build, that sales guys and girls are just like, "Here, ship these features, everything's great."
首席执行官告诉你要构建的所有东西，销售人员就像，“在这里，发布这些功能，一切都很棒。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And everything's working, business is growing.
Lenny Rachitsky：一切正常，业务在增长。
What thoughts there?
那里有什么想法？
Is it just, "Nah, leave it alone?" Or is your sense, "Okay, most often this will not last," and you should really start to work on these skills?
难道只是“不，别管它吗？”或者你的感觉是，“好吧，这通常不会持续太久”，你真的应该开始学习这些技能吗？
Matt LeMay: It's funny, the teams I've worked with, when things are going well, are sometimes just as anxious as the teams I've worked with, when things are going poorly, because they have a hard time attributing success to what they're doing, right?
马特·勒梅：很有趣，当事情进展顺利时，与我合作过的团队有时会像事情进展不顺利时与我合作过的团队一样焦虑，因为他们很难将成功归因于他们正在做的事情，对吗？
Matt LeMay: They'll look at it and they'll say, "Yeah, we're doing great.
马特·勒梅：他们会看着它，然后说：“是的，我们做得很好。
But I think that honestly has more to do with marketing than it does with us."
但我认为老实说，这更多地与营销有关，而不是与我们有关。”
Matt LeMay: Or, "Yeah, we're doing great, but we're just in the right place at the right time.
马特·勒梅：或者，“是的，我们做得很好，但我们只是在正确的时间出现在正确的地点。
Our business is doing really well, our sector is doing really well.
我们的业务做得非常好，我们的部门做得非常好。
We're just growing along with everyone else who's growing."
我们只是与其他正在成长的人一起成长。”
Matt LeMay: And I think, as with most things, if you approach it with curiosity, there's a lot to learn from it.
马特·勒梅：我认为，就像大多数事情一样，如果你带着好奇心去接触它，就会从中学到很多东西。
So if you look at it, and you say, "Yeah, we can't necessarily take sole credit for this, but Marketing's doing awesome.
因此，如果你看到它，你会说：“是的，我们不一定能将此归功于我们，但营销做得很棒。
Let's talk to them.
让我们和他们谈谈吧。
What are they doing?
他们在做什么？
Why is this going so well?
为什么进展这么顺利？
What have they learned from this, that we can work with them more closely?"
他们从中学到了什么，我们可以与他们更密切地合作吗？”
Matt LeMay: If your sector is just doing really well, be like, okay, well what about this is working right now?
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：如果你的行业表现非常好，那么，好吧，那么现在这个行业怎么样？
What might change in the future?
未来可能会发生什么变化？
How can we understand this?"
我们如何理解这一点？”
Matt LeMay: So I think the challenge, when things are going well, is to keep that curiosity going, and to keep celebrating the things, not just that your team is doing, but that everyone is doing, and to take that time, where you have a little bit more leeway, where there's less pressure on you in the moment, to build those connections with other parts of the organization, to see where that really good work is happening.
马特·勒梅：所以我认为，当事情进展顺利时，挑战是保持好奇心，不断庆祝事情，不仅仅是你的团队正在做的事情，而是每个人都在做的事情，并利用这段时间，在你有更多回旋余地的时候，在你目前压力较小的时候，与组织的其他部分建立联系，看看哪里发生了真正好的工作。
Matt LeMay: One thing that makes me sad is when teams look upon each other with envy and disgust, right, when it's, "This team's doing, they're doing great work, but they're not held to the same standards that we are, and it's not fair, and they're the team that everyone likes."
马特·勒梅：让我感到悲伤的一件事是，当团队以嫉妒和厌恶的眼光互相看待时，对的，当它是，“这个团队正在做，他们正在做伟大的工作，但他们没有遵循与我们相同的标准，这是不公平的，他们是每个人都喜欢的团队。”
Matt LeMay: It's like, "Go talk to them, because there's probably something you can learn from them.
马特·勒梅：就像是，“去和他们谈谈，因为你可能可以从他们身上学到一些东西。
And if they're the team that's getting positive attention, that's doing meaningful work, there's probably a reason for that.
如果他们是得到积极关注的团队，正在做有意义的工作，那么这可能是有原因的。
And if you can understand that reason, and you can align your work, that team's work, that's probably going to be really good for you."
如果你能理解这个原因，并且能够协调你的工作、团队的工作，那可能对你来说真的有好处。”
Matt LeMay: Again, I think, in a lot of cases, it comes back down to that control thing, right?
马特·勒梅：我认为，在很多情况下，这又可以归结为控制问题，对吧？
If we can't feel a sense of control over, "Things are going well because we did this," we tend to disconnect ourselves from things going well and say, "Well, I can't.
如果我们无法感受到一种控制感，“因为我们做了这件事，事情进展顺利”，我们就会倾向于将自己与进展顺利的事情脱节，并说：“好吧，我不能。
It almost feels dangerous to engage with it because, what if we didn't do anything, but good things are still happening."
参与其中几乎感觉很危险，因为如果我们什么都不做怎么办，但好事仍在发生。”
Matt LeMay: And I think, just keeping that openness, keeping that curiosity going, puts you in a much better position for when things inevitably begin to either plateau or decline, which is the cyclical nature of all things.
马特·勒梅：我认为，只要保持这种开放性，保持好奇心，当事情不可避免地开始趋于稳定或衰退时，你就会处于更好的位置，这就是所有事物的周期性。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Profound there.
那里深奥。
To start to wrap up our conversation, what's maybe one question from the book, or even from this conversation, that you think product leaders, product teams should ask themselves to help them solve problems, that maybe they're not seeing, and to help their team operate better?
为了结束我们的对话，您认为产品领导者、产品团队应该要求自己帮助他们解决可能没有看到的问题，并帮助他们的团队更好地运作，这本书中甚至是这次对话中可能有一个问题是什么？
Matt LeMay: I mean, I love the, "Would you fund this team, if you were the CEO question?" I know that that can feel a little confrontational sometimes.
马特·勒梅：我的意思是，我喜欢这样的问题：“如果你是首席执行官，你会资助这个团队吗？”我知道有时这会让人感觉有点对抗。
So, a gentler way of bringing that up is to say, "What's one sentence you'd want to be able to say at the end of this year, that would leave you feeling awesome about this team's work?
因此，一种更温和的方式是这样说：“在今年年底，你希望能够说哪一句话，让你对这个团队的工作感到非常棒？
What's something?"
有什么事吗？”
Matt LeMay: At the end of the year, everything went really well for this team.
马特·勒梅：到了年底，这支球队的一切都进展顺利。
You run into the CEO in the hallway, and you say, "I feel awesome, because we did this." '.
你在走廊里遇到首席执行官，你会说：“我感觉棒极了，因为我们做到了这一点。” '。
Matt LeMay: And you'll sometimes get very different answers from different people on the team, building on those answers, saying, "Okay, this is what you care about.
马特·勒梅：有时你会从团队中不同的人那里得到非常不同的答案，并在这些答案的基础上说：“好吧，这就是你关心的。
This is what I care about.
这就是我关心的。
This is what I'm worried about.
这就是我担心的。
This is what I'm excited about."
这就是我感到兴奋的事情。”
Matt LeMay: That's how you get that magical, people in a room building together, or musicians in a room writing their next song, right?
马特·勒梅：这就是你如何变得神奇的，人们在一个房间里一起建造，或者音乐家在一个房间里写下一首歌曲，对吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: What a call, back to the beginning.
Lenny Rachitsky：真是太好了，回到开头。
Matt LeMay: It's getting that conversation out in the open, and getting people to talk about their perspectives and their expectations, with the goal of bringing it together, to create something better.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：公开对话，让人们谈论他们的观点和期望，目标是将它们聚集在一起，创造出更好的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bam.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：嘭。
Matt, is there anything else that you wanted to cover or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
马特，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想向听众介绍或留给听众的吗？
Matt LeMay: I think we covered it.
马特·勒梅：我想我们已经讨论过了。
I just leave people with, again, this hope that you can start to see the commercial realities and constraints of your business as opportunities, as guideposts, as things that shape and structure your work, not as things that you single-handedly need to change, or break down, or transform, because you probably can't.
我只是再次希望人们能够开始将商业现实和业务限制视为机会、路标、塑造和构建你的工作的东西，而不是你单独需要改变、分解或转变的东西，因为你可能做不到。
And that's okay.
没关系。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's empowering stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种赋予力量的东西。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Question one.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：问题一。
What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Matt LeMay: Radical Focus, by Christina Wodtke, is obviously, I cite it a lot in my book, I think it's the best book about OKRs.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：克里斯蒂娜·沃特克（Christina Wodtke）的《激进焦点》显然是，我在我的书中多次引用了它，我认为这是关于 OKR 的最好的书。
I love her style of writing.
我喜欢她的写作风格。
I love the way she tells stories.
我喜欢她讲故事的方式。
Matt LeMay: I love the focus on focus, this idea that again, the way you do it is less important than the result of the way of doing it.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我喜欢对焦点的关注，这个想法再次表明，你做事的方式并不比做事方式的结果重要。
I just find that so inspiring, always.
我觉得这总是那么鼓舞人心。
Matt LeMay: The other book, this is a bit of a curveball, is by Alan Watts, the Buddhist philosopher.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：另一本书是佛教哲学家艾伦·瓦茨（Alan Watts）写的，这本书有点曲折。
It's called The Wisdom of Insecurity.
这就是《不安全感的智慧》。
And a lot of the way I talk about control, and giving up control, comes from that book.
我谈论控制和放弃控制的很多方式都来自那本书。
Matt LeMay: It also has a concept.
Matt LeMay：它还有一个概念。
It opens with a concept called the law of reverse effort, which is that sometimes, the harder you try, the worse you make things.
它以一个称为“逆向努力定律”的概念开头，即有时，你越努力，事情就会变得越糟糕。
When it comes to setting goals, doing OKRs, doing strategy, I think about this a lot, that there is a tendency sometimes to put effort towards the overcomplication of things, which in turn makes those things less effective, what they're ultimately intended to achieve.
当谈到设定目标、执行 OKR、制定策略时，我经常思考这一点，即有时会倾向于将精力放在过于复杂的事情上，这反过来又会降低这些事情的效果，而这正是它们最终想要实现的目标。
So, highly recommend that book.
所以，强烈推荐这本书。
It helped me a lot through some dark times, mentally.
它在精神上帮助我度过了一些黑暗时期。
Matt LeMay: There's an idea in the book.
马特·勒梅：书中有一个想法。
He talks about how trying to keep yourself perpetually safe in an imagined future is effectively killing yourself to the present.
他谈到，在想象的未来中，试图让自己永远保持安全，实际上就是在自杀。
And ooh, that hit hard.
哦，这打击很大。
That hit me really, really, really hard.
这对我的打击真的非常非常大。
So, highly recommend that book.
所以，强烈推荐这本书。
Matt LeMay: If the things we've talked about today make you even a fraction of, as anxious and fearful as they make me when I navigate them in my work, then I highly recommend The Wisdom of Insecurity, by Alan Watts.
马特·勒梅：如果我们今天讨论的事情让你感到焦虑和恐惧，就像我在工作中处理这些事情时一样，那么我强烈推荐艾伦·瓦茨的《不安全感的智慧》。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to ask what the title is, because that sounds really powerful.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想问标题是什么，因为这听起来真的很强大。
Amazing, amazing pick.
惊人的，惊人的选择。
Lenny Rachitsky: Second question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
Lenny Rachitsky：第二个问题，你最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Matt LeMay: God.
马特·李梅：上帝。
So especially, when I'm in work-y write-y mode, my brain shuts off to all things that are not trash.
尤其是当我处于工作、写作模式时，我的大脑会关闭所有非垃圾的东西。
So I have been watching a lot of trash.
所以我看了很多垃圾。
Matt LeMay: I watched Temptation Island, the new season of Temptation Island on Netflix.
马特·勒梅：我在 Netflix 上观看了《诱惑岛》的新一季。
I loved it so much.
我非常喜欢它。
It's Mark L.
这是马克·L。
Wahlberg, who is the host of Antiques Roadshow, just weaponizing therapyspeak to torture people, in this bizarre scenario.
沃尔伯格是古董路演的主持人，在这种奇怪的场景中，他只是将疗法武器化来折磨人们。
Matt LeMay: And I should not love it, but I am only a human, and a messy bitch who lives for the drama, sometimes, so ...
马特·勒梅：我不应该喜欢它，但我只是一个人，一个为戏剧而活的凌乱的婊子，有时，所以......
Matt LeMay: I know.
马特·李梅：我知道。
I enjoyed that very much.
我非常喜欢这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's the first Temptation Island call-out, and I love it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是《诱惑岛》的第一次亮相，我很喜欢它。
Okay, favorite product or ...
好的，最喜欢的产品或...
Yeah, favorite product you've recently discovered, that you really love?
是的，您最近发现的最喜欢的产品，您真的很喜欢吗？
Matt LeMay: Yeah, so I'm really glad you asked this question, because as a musician, I live in this world of niche products, which is so much fun, because the economies of scale for music creators are just totally different, right?
马特·勒梅：是的，所以我真的很高兴你问这个问题，因为作为一名音乐家，我生活在这个小众产品的世界里，这非常有趣，因为音乐创作者的规模经济完全不同，对吧？
Matt LeMay: You don't need to build a product that's going to have a billion users, and create a huge return.
Matt LeMay：你不需要开发一款拥有十亿用户的产品，并创造巨大的回报。
You can do something that a few hundred or a few thousand people get a lot of use out of and love.
你可以做一些让几百人或几千人大量使用和喜爱的事情。
You're in this fun realm of hybrid, physical and digital, and different types of things.
您正处于这个混合、物理和数字以及不同类型事物的有趣领域。
And when you asked me this question, the first thing that came to mind was this, which is made by an amplifier builder who goes by Milkman Sound, in the San Francisco Bay area, who took, basically, the circuit of a Fender amplifier, and made a version of it that fits into this handy, compact, lightweight form factor.
当你问我这个问题时，我首先想到的是这个，它是由旧金山湾区的 Milkman Sound 放大器制造商制造的，他基本上采用了 Fender 放大器的电路，并制作了一个适合这种方便、紧凑、轻量外形的版本。
Matt LeMay: So for me, as somebody who is no longer 22 years old, and still occasionally tours with my friend's band, and has back problems, the fact that I can carry this really powerful amplifier around, in this really well-designed, aesthetically pleasing form factor, just feels like such a joy.
马特·勒梅：所以对我来说，作为一个不再 22 岁、仍然偶尔与我朋友的乐队一起巡演、并且有背部问题的人，事实上，我可以带着这个非常强大的放大器，在这个设计精良、美观的外形中，感觉就像是一种快乐。
It's one of those products that really understands what quality means to its particular audience.
它是真正了解质量对其特定受众意味着什么的产品之一。
Matt LeMay: And I can go on tour, and have things sound really nice, without having to lug a giant, heavy thing.
马特·勒梅：我可以去巡演，让一切听起来都很棒，而不必拖着一个巨大而沉重的东西。
And I love that.
我喜欢这样。
It's something for which I am truly grateful.
这是我真正感激的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: This makes me want to play music randomly, but just so I understand how this works, do you still plug that into a speaker, or is that-
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想随机播放音乐，但只是为了让我了解它是如何工作的，你是否仍然将其插入扬声器，或者是 -
Matt LeMay: Yeah, so I have a little speaker.
马特·勒梅：是的，所以我有一个小扬声器。
Matt LeMay: You can also plug direct into the soundboard at a club, or for recording.
Matt LeMay：您还可以直接插入俱乐部的音板或进行录音。
Matt LeMay: And it has a little headphone jack, too.
Matt LeMay：它还有一个小耳机插孔。
So if I want to practice in the hotel room, before you play, I can also use this.
所以如果我想在酒店房间练习，在演奏之前，我也可以使用这个。
Matt LeMay: It does everything you would need this device to do, and nothing more, and it does it really well.
Matt LeMay：它可以完成您需要该设备执行的所有操作，仅此而已，而且它做得非常好。
And that is so delicious to me, to have a product-
这对我来说真是太美味了，拥有一个产品——
Matt LeMay: ...
马特·李梅：...
that I'm like, "This does exactly what I need.
我想，“这正是我所需要的。
It does it so well, and it's a delightful product."
它做得很好，是一个令人愉快的产品。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Two more questions.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find useful in work, or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回顾，发现它在工作或生活中很有用？
Matt LeMay: I come back to something my mom told me.
马特·勒梅：我回到了我妈妈告诉我的事情。
I'm sure you've experienced this, too.
我相信你也经历过这个。
When you're a person creating things in the world, there's a tendency to look at the numbers, and look at, "How am I doing?
当你是一个在世界上创造事物的人时，你会倾向于关注数字，然后关注“我做得怎么样？
And did this resonate?
这引起了共鸣吗？
Is this good?
这好吗？
Did this work?"
这有用吗？”
Matt LeMay: And I've definitely worked on things, especially in my musical life, where the amount of effort and love, and time and care that went into something, didn't feel like it showed up in the result of that thing, or the way it was received.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：我确实在做一些事情，特别是在我的音乐生活中，在某件事上付出的努力和爱，以及时间和关心，并没有体现在那件事的结果中，或者它被接受的方式中。
Matt LeMay: I was talking to my mom about this once, and she said, "I really believe that no good work is wasted.
马特·勒梅：有一次我和妈妈谈论过这个问题，她说：“我真的相信任何好的工作都不会被浪费。
Even if you don't see it right away, when you put good work out into the world, even if it only finds a few people, it's never wasted.
即使你没有立即看到它，当你把好的工作投入到世界上时，即使它只找到了几个人，它也永远不会被浪费。
If you do work you really believe in, it's going to have some positive effect on the world."
如果你从事你真正相信的工作，它将对世界产生一些积极的影响。”
Matt LeMay: And that really stuck with me.
马特·勒梅：这确实让我难以忘怀。
I've carried that with me, even when I think about how to write, and what to say, and when I start to worry about outsmarting myself, and should I be more strategic in the way I message this, and should I say something I don't really totally believe?
我一直带着这样的想法，即使当我思考如何写作，要说什么，当我开始担心自己比自己聪明时，我是否应该在传递信息的方式上更具策略性，以及我是否应该说一些我并不完全相信的事情？
Matt LeMay: There've been a few times, not recently, but a few times, 10 years ago, where I dabbled in writing click bait-y headlines, because I was like, "Ooh, is this going to get more attention?" And there was one in particular, that got really thoughtful critique from some people I really respect.
马特·勒梅：有过几次，不是最近，而是十年前的几次，我涉足撰写点击诱饵标题，因为我当时想，“哦，这会得到更多关注吗？”其中一个特别值得一提的是，它得到了一些我真正尊敬的人的深思熟虑的批评。
Matt LeMay: I was like, "I don't want to do this.
马特·勒梅：我当时想，“我不想这样做。
I don't want to put work I don't believe in out into the world," and even if it doesn't do what I hoped it would do, I'm going to go forth with the belief that no good work has wasted.
我不想把我不相信的工作推向世界”，即使它没有达到我希望的效果，我也会继续相信，没有任何好的工作被浪费了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I totally believe that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我完全相信这一点。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
You wrote a ton of music reviews over the years.
多年来你写了大量的音乐评论。
I'm curious if there's one that was just very, people super disagreed with it, or just one that you're super proud of?
我很好奇是否有一个是人们非常不同意的，或者只是一个让你非常自豪的？
Matt LeMay: I mean, I am a villain, in certain corners of the internet-
马特·勒梅：我的意思是，在互联网的某些角落，我是一个恶棍——
Matt LeMay: ...
马特·李梅：...
for the review I wrote of Liz Phair's self-titled album.
这是我为 Liz Phair 的同名专辑写的评论。
I wrote this review when I was 19, when my worldview was toxic, and very much in progress.
我在 19 岁时写了这篇评论，当时我的世界观很有毒，而且正在进步。
It was a really condescending, arrogant review, written from a place of unearned condescension and arrogance.
这是一篇非常居高临下、傲慢的评论，是从一种不劳而获的居高临下和傲慢的态度写成的。
Matt LeMay: Not that condescension and arrogance should necessarily be earned, but it felt righteous at the time, in a way that is dangerous, right?
马特·勒梅：并不是说屈尊俯就和傲慢一定是值得的，但当时感觉很正义，但在某种程度上是危险的，对吧？
That toxic righteousness where you're like, "I'm fighting something bad." But then you realize that what you're fighting is not actually bad.
那种有毒的正义让你感觉“我正在与一些坏事作斗争”。但后来你意识到你所对抗的实际上并不坏。
Matt LeMay: You're actually punching sideways and down, but you don't have the wherewithal and the maturity to realize that you are not where you think you are, in relation to people and culture, and yourself.
马特·勒梅：你实际上是在侧向和向下出拳，但你没有足够的资金和成熟度来意识到，在与人、文化以及你自己的关系中，你并不像你想象的那样。
So I apologized for that review in 2019, and Liz Phair and I actually had a really nice little Twitter back and forth.
因此，我为 2019 年的那次评论道歉，而且 Liz Phair 和我实际上在 Twitter 上进行了非常愉快的交流。
Matt LeMay: This was back when Twitter was still a place where this kind of thing could happen, and it was nice to wrap that up in that way.
马特·勒梅（Matt LeMay）：当时 Twitter 仍然是一个可能发生这种事情的地方，以这种方式结束这一切真是太好了。
I still don't feel good about it, because it was playing into some really toxic and hurtful dimensions of discourse.
我仍然对此感觉不太好，因为它正在发挥一些真正有毒和伤害性的话语维度。
Matt LeMay: But what can you do, if not look back on it and say, "Yeah, I was wrong.
马特·勒梅：但是如果你不回顾过去并说：“是的，我错了，你能做什么呢？
I was just flat-out wrong, and beyond being wrong, I was being a jerk." Somebody posted this, a meme creator on Instagram, posted that review a couple months ago, with a caption, " Matt LeMay, you will be dealt with."
我完全错了，除了错之外，我还是一个混蛋。”有人在 Instagram 上发布了这条评论，几个月前，他在 Instagram 上发布了这条评论，并配文说：“马特·勒梅，你会被处理的。”
Matt LeMay: And I was like, "Yeah, yeah.
马特·勒梅：我当时想，“是啊，是啊。
If I read that now, I would probably say something pretty similar." So I think, as I said, I'm a conflict averse people pleaser.
如果我现在读到那句话，我可能会说一些非常相似的话。”所以我认为，正如我所说，我是一个厌恶冲突、取悦他人的人。
Matt LeMay: I went through my kind of edgelord phase.
马特·勒梅：我经历了边缘领主阶段。
And I don't think it did any good for me, or for anyone else.
我不认为这对我或其他任何人有任何好处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
That was a much more profound answer than I expected.
这是一个比我预想的更深刻的答案。
I can't believe people are still referencing this review from a long time ago.
我不敢相信人们还在引用很久以前的这篇评论。
How many years?
几年了？
How ...
怎么...
Matt LeMay: 22?
马特·李梅：22？
It was 2003, so it was 22 years ago.
那是2003年，距今已经22年了。
It was more than half my life ago.
那已经是我大半辈子的事了。
But this is the wild thing, is that on the internet, it still looks new.
但这是疯狂的事情，在互联网上，它看起来仍然是新的。
Matt LeMay: The first talk I ever gave, in London, actually, was at a Red Monk event, and I brought my teenage diary with me, to make the point that if something has 10 years of age on it as paper, it's contextualized by its own material existence, right?
马特·勒梅：实际上，我在伦敦发表的第一次演讲是在红僧侣活动中，我随身带着我青少年时期的日记，目的是为了表明，如果某样东西在纸上有 10 年的历史，那么它就以其自身的物质存在为背景，对吗？
Matt LeMay: But somebody will go, "Oh, I wonder what Pitchfork thought of this record," they'll see my jerk-ass review, and be, "Pitchfork published this jerk-ass review.
马特·勒梅：但是有人会说，“哦，我想知道 Pitchfork 对这张唱片的看法，”他们会看到我的混蛋评论，然后，“Pitchfork 发表了这张混蛋评论。
Who was the jerk-ass reviewer who wrote it?"
写这本书的混蛋评论家是谁？”
Matt LeMay: And they'll find me, and be like, "Hey, you, you're a jerk-ass, because you wrote this jerk-ass review." And I'll be like, "Yes, I did write that jerk-ass review, from the place of being a jerk-ass." But I like to think I am a person who has lived 22 years of life since then.
马特·勒梅：他们会找到我，然后说：“嘿，你，你是个混蛋，因为你写了这篇混蛋评论。”我会说，“是的，我确实从一个混蛋的角度写了那篇混蛋评论。”但我喜欢认为我是一个从那时起已经活了22年的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Your frontal cortex has developed more since then.
Lenny Rachitsky：从那时起，你的额叶皮层已经发育得更多了。
I think it doesn't stop-
我想这不会停止——
Lenny Rachitsky: Until 25, 26.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：直到25、26岁。
Matt, this was awesome.
马特，这太棒了。
We covered so much ground.
我们涵盖了很多领域。
We've touched on everything I was hoping to, and more.
我们已经触及了我希望触及的一切，甚至更多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two follow-up questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：两个后续问题。
Where can folks find you online, talk about the sort of work you do with companies, and how can listeners be useful to you?
人们可以在哪里找到您在线，谈论您在公司所做的工作，以及听众如何对您有用？
Matt LeMay: Yeah, so you can find me online at matlemay.com, pretty straightforward, and in terms of how folks can be useful to me, hopefully I can be useful to them, whether that's through the books, or through coming into work with your company, and help your teams focus.
Matt LeMay：是的，所以你可以在 matlemay.com 上找到我，非常简单，就人们如何对我有用而言，希望我能对他们有用，无论是通过书籍，还是通过与你的公司合作，并帮助你的团队集中注意力。
Matt LeMay: I find that facilitating these conversations is a really big value add.
马特·勒梅：我发现促进这些对话是一个非常大的附加值。
It's hard to have these conversations to do this without some outside help sometimes.
有时，如果没有外部帮助，很难通过这些对话来做到这一点。
So again, whether it's in book form or in me form, I hope that I can be useful to you, and having these conversations in a way that's less scary, more accessible, and leads you down that road to doing impactful work.
再说一次，无论是以书的形式还是以我的形式，我希望我能对你有用，并以一种不那么可怕、更容易理解的方式进行这些对话，并引导你走上做出有影响力的工作的道路。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome, and mattlemay.com.
Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，还有 mattlemay.com。
And then, what's the name of the book?
然后，这本书的名字是什么？
Where do they find it
他们在哪里找到它
Matt LeMay: Impact-First Product Teams.
马特·勒梅：影响力第一的产品团队。
You can find it at all the places where you find books, on Amazon.
您可以在亚马逊上所有可以找到书籍的地方找到它。
There's an author read audiobook, which I recorded right here in this room, with this microphone.
有一位作者读了有声读物，我就在这个房间里用这个麦克风录制了它。
I did all the musical interludes myself ...
所有的音乐插曲都是我自己做的...
Matt LeMay: Because it was a great way to procrastinate, when I did not actually want to read the book.
马特·勒梅：因为当我实际上不想读这本书时，这是一种很好的拖延方式。
But I hope you will find it fun.
但我希望你会觉得这很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢你来到这里。
Matt LeMay: Thanks so much, Lenny.
马特·勒梅：非常感谢，莱尼。
This was great.
这太棒了。
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.
发言者 1：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Speaker 1: Also, please consider giving us a rating, or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
发言者 1：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes, or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集，或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。