How to speak more confidently and persuasively | Matt Abrahams (professor, speaker, author)

Matt Abrahams: Visualization is a really useful technique and you see yourself not just in the moment of speaking, but getting up to the stage, seeing it being well received, thinking about how you step off the stage.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：可视化是一种非常有用的技术，你不仅能在演讲的那一刻看到自己，还能看到自己走上舞台，看到它受到好评，思考你如何走下舞台。

We see athletes do this kind of thing all the time, and there's good research to say that this desensitizes people.

我们经常看到运动员做这种事情，而且有充分的研究表明这会使人们变得不敏感。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most of the public speaking we do is on the spot.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们的大部分公开演讲都是在现场进行的。

It's not often you give a prepared talk.

你很少会进行有准备的演讲。

Matt Abrahams: You actually have to prepare to be spontaneous.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：你实际上必须做好自发的准备。

And that's counterintuitive, but when you think about it in athletics or jazz music, it's like of course you would prepare and practice.

这是违反直觉的，但是当你在体育或爵士音乐中思考它时，你当然会准备和练习。

Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any other techniques that you love that you find people find really helpful in calming their anxiety?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有其他你喜欢的、你发现人们发现真正有助于平息焦虑的技巧吗？

Matt Abrahams: Strive for connection over perfection by daring to be dull.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯（Matt Abrahams）：通过敢于变得迟钝来争取联系而不是完美。

Just answer the question.

回答一下问题吧。

Just give the feedback.

只需提供反馈即可。

Just be engaged in the small talk.

只是闲聊。

By doing that, you dial down the volume of self-evaluation, freeing up resources that can be used to really help you succeed.

通过这样做，你可以减少自我评价的数量，从而释放出可以用来真正帮助你成功的资源。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Matt Abrahams.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是马特·亚伯拉罕斯。

Matt is a professor at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business where he teaches a very popular class on communication and public speaking.

马特是斯坦福大学商学院的教授，他在那里教授一门非常受欢迎的沟通和公开演讲课程。

He's also the host of the incredibly popular podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart; and the author of the very popular book, Think Faster and Talk Smarter.

他还是非常受欢迎的播客《Think Fast, Talk Smart》的主持人；也是非常受欢迎的书《Think Faster and Talk Smarter》的作者。

Matt also coaches people one-on-one on public speaking and communication skills.

马特还一对一地指导人们公开演讲和沟通技巧。

And in our conversation we focus on the two areas that people most need help with.

在我们的谈话中，我们重点关注人们最需要帮助的两个领域。

One, reducing their anxiety before and during any form of public speaking, and getting better at speaking on the spot, including giving better toasts, giving feedback, doing Q&A, and even apologizing.

第一，减少他们在任何形式的公开演讲之前和期间的焦虑，并提高现场演讲的能力，包括更好地祝酒、提供反馈、进行问答，甚至道歉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Like we talk about in the actual conversation, speaking well is a superpower in your career for interviewing, for being great in meetings, for pitching your manager on ideas, to leading teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像我们在实际对话中谈论的那样，良好的演讲是你职业生涯中的一种超能力，无论是面试、在会议上表现出色、向经理推销想法还是领导团队。

And the skill becomes even more important as you grow in your career.

随着您职业生涯的成长，这项技能变得更加重要。

The good news is that you can get better at it with a bit of help.

好消息是，通过一些帮助，您可以做得更好。

I've worked on this a lot over the course of my career and I still get really nervous before big talks and even before every podcast episode, but many of these techniques I actually put into practice and I share that in our conversation.

在我的职业生涯中，我在这方面做了很多工作，在大型演讲之前，甚至在每一集播客之前，我仍然感到非常紧张，但我实际上将其中的许多技巧付诸实践，并在我们的谈话中分享了这些技巧。

If you pick just a couple things from this episode to put into practice, you'll become a better communicator, you'll be less nervous, and you'll get better at dealing with on-the-spot moments.

如果你从这一集中挑选一些东西来付诸实践，你就会成为一个更好的沟通者，你会不那么紧张，并且你会更好地处理现场时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Matt Abrahams after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了马特·亚伯拉罕。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me tell you about a product called Sprig.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我向您介绍一款名为 Sprig 的产品。

Next-gen product teams like Figma and Notion rely on Sprig to build products that people love.

Figma 和 Notion 等下一代产品团队依靠 Sprig 来构建人们喜爱的产品。

Sprig is an AI-powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently.

Sprig 是一个人工智能驱动的平台，使您能够从正确的用户那里收集相关的产品体验见解，以便您可以快速、自信地做出产品决策。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here's how it works.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是它的工作原理。

It all starts with Sprig's precise targeting, which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on users' characteristics and actions taken in product.

这一切都始于 Sprig 的精确定位，它允许您根据用户的特征和在产品中采取的操作触发应用内研究。

Then Sprig's AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings.

然后，Sprig 的人工智能会叠加在所有研究之上，以立即呈现您产品的最大学习成果。

Sprig Surveys enables you to target specific users to get relevant and timely feedback.

Sprig Surveys 使您能够定位特定用户以获得相关且及时的反馈。

Sprig Replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand.

Sprig Replays 使您能够捕获目标会话剪辑，以第一时间了解您的产品体验。

Sprig's AI is a game changer for product teams.

Sprig 的 AI 改变了产品团队的游戏规则。

They're the only platform with product-level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations in one real-time feed.

它们是唯一具有产品级人工智能的平台，这意味着它会分析您所有研究的数据，以将最重要的产品机会、趋势和相关性集中在一个实时源中。

Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off.

请访问 sprig.com/lenny 了解更多信息并享受 10% 折扣。

That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.

那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights hub for product teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Dovetail（产品团队的客户洞察中心）为您带来。

Are you working in a feature factory building filler that nobody wants?

您是否在无人想要的特色工厂建筑填充物中工作？

Probably, because the sad truth is that most SaaS features are rarely or never used, costing the industry billions every year.

可能是这样，因为可悲的事实是，大多数 SaaS 功能很少或从未使用过，每年给行业造成数十亿美元的损失。

Let's change that.

让我们改变这一点。

Product managers, Dovetail is holding their first industry conference, it's called Insight Out, and they want you to come.

产品经理，Dovetail 正在举办他们的第一次行业会议，名为 Insight Out，他们希望您参加。

Over one day in San Francisco, the product community is coming together to learn how to better leverage customer insights and build products that people actually love to use.

在旧金山的一天，产品社区齐聚一堂，学习如何更好地利用客户洞察并构建人们真正喜欢使用的产品。

It's on April 11, and you can hear from product leaders from Uber, Twitch, Meta and Netflix, as they share their strategies for driving innovation, thriving in uncertainty, and balancing customer-centered work with business needs.

4 月 11 日，您可以听到来自 Uber、Twitch、Meta 和 Netflix 的产品负责人的演讲，他们分享了推动创新、在不确定性中蓬勃发展以及平衡以客户为中心的工作与业务需求的策略。

And here's the kicker, it's absolutely free for online tickets.

更重要的是，在线门票完全免费。

Just go to dovetail.com/lenny to register.

只需前往 dovetail.com/lenny 进行注册即可。

This is thanks to Dovetail, the best way for product teams to get the most out of customer insights.

这要归功于 Dovetail，它是产品团队充分利用客户洞察的最佳方式。

Check it out at dovetail.com/lenny.

请访问 dovetail.com/lenny 进行查看。

Lenny Rachitsky: Matt, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Matt，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Matt Abrahams: Lenny, I am excited for our conversation and thank you for having me.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：莱尼，我对我们的谈话感到很兴奋，感谢你邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you for being here.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢你来到这里。

I'm even more excited for the conversation.

我对这次谈话更加兴奋。

So what I want to do with our time today is there's two areas I want to focus.

所以我今天想要做的是有两个我想要关注的领域。

One is talking about techniques to help people manage anxiety when public speaking.

其中之一是谈论帮助人们在公开演讲时控制焦虑的技巧。

And two is helping people get better at speaking on the spot, which you wrote a whole book about.

第二是帮助人们更好地进行现场演讲，你为此写了一整本书。

And if you think about it, I think that's like most of the public speaking we do is on the spot.

如果你仔细想想，我认为我们所做的大部分公开演讲都是在现场进行的。

It's not often you give a prepared talk.

你很少会进行有准备的演讲。

It's usually like you said, Q&A or a or toast someone wants to give you or ask for feedback or things like that.

通常就像你说的，问答或祝酒，有人想给你或要求反馈或类似的事情。

So I'm excited to dig into those things.

所以我很高兴能深入研究这些事情。

How do that sound broadly?

听起来怎么样？

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, I look forward to that and those are topics I'm very excited to talk about, have done a lot of research in and look forward to sharing more.

马特·亚伯拉罕：当然，我很期待这些，我很高兴谈论这些话题，我已经做了很多研究，并期待分享更多。

Lenny Rachitsky: I suspected as much.

Lenny Rachitsky：我也这么怀疑。

Okay, so let's talk about anxiety.

好吧，我们来谈谈焦虑。

You have a bunch of really novel techniques in your book and your podcast for calming your body down, calming your mind down when you're planning to give a talk, when you're actually about to give a talk, when you're giving a talk.

你的书和播客中有很多非常新颖的技巧，可以让你的身体平静下来，让你的思想平静下来，当你计划演讲时，当你真正要演讲时，当你正在演讲时。

And a lot of these I haven't actually seen anywhere else and I've used a few of them and they are really great.

其中很多我在其他地方都没有见过，但我已经使用过其中一些，它们真的很棒。

So what I was thinking we'd do is let me go through the ones that I found most useful and interesting and just share your advice on those and then see if there's any I missed and then maybe add those at the end.

所以我想我们要做的就是让我浏览一下我认为最有用和最有趣的内容，并分享您对这些内容的建议，然后看看是否有我遗漏的内容，然后也许会在最后添加它们。

How's that?

怎么样？

Matt Abrahams: That sounds great.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：听起来很棒。

That sounds great.

听起来很棒。

I love that you've applied some of these techniques and found value from them.

我很高兴您应用了其中一些技术并从中发现了价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll talk about this, I'll talk about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我会谈论这个，我会谈论这个。

Okay, first of all, just to catch on this, you're not a fan of the picture people in your audience naked approach, correct?

好吧，首先，为了明白这一点，你不喜欢观众裸体的照片，对吗？

Matt Abrahams: The Brady Bunch advice is not good advice.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：布雷迪·邦奇的建议不是好建议。

I don't know about you and I don't know anybody who could imagine seeing a bunch of people in their underwear and feel more comfortable with that.

我不了解你，也不知道有谁能想象看到一群穿着内衣的人并对此感到更舒服。

And I think if you do, there are other issues you need to be dealing with than beyond speaking anxiety.

我认为如果你这样做了，除了演讲焦虑之外，你还需要处理其他问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it feels like highly inappropriate now, just that idea, trying to picture everyone-

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，现在感觉非常不合适，只是这个想法，试图描绘每个人-

Matt Abrahams: No, but underlying that if you'll give me a moment, there is some value.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：不，但从根本上来说，如果你能给我一点时间，那就有一定的价值。

This notion of visualization as a tool of desensitization actually can be very helpful, but you're not visualizing the audience half naked.

这种将可视化作为脱敏工具的概念实际上非常有帮助，但你并没有想象观众半裸。

What you're doing is you're visualizing yourself in that space.

你所做的就是在那个空间中想象自己。

You're visualizing the audience responding to you and what you're saying.

你正在想象观众对你和你所说的话的反应。

So just like a pilot might do a flight simulator, having a visualization can actually really help you feel more comfortable and confident.

因此，就像飞行员可能会做飞行模拟器一样，可视化实际上可以帮助您感到更加舒适和自信。

It literally puts you in the room even though you're not there.

即使您不在那里，它实际上也会让您进入房间。

And there's some tools and I'm fascinated by these tools that are virtual reality tools that can also serve to desensitize you.

还有一些工具，我对这些工具很着迷，它们是虚拟现实工具，也可以让你变得不敏感。

So this notion of seeing your audience in advance of actually speaking can actually impact your level of comfort.

因此，在实际演讲之前看到听众的想法实际上会影响你的舒适度。

It's let's keep everybody clothed and let's keep them all focused on your topic.

让我们让每个人都穿好衣服，让他们都专注于你的话题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's actually talk about this one while we're on it because I think this is a really powerful technique.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们边讨论边讨论这个问题，因为我认为这是一项非常强大的技术。

An idea just to kind of summarize, you picture ahead of time, what it's going to look like and feel like.

一个想法只是为了总结一下，你提前想象它会是什么样子和感觉如何。

You talking, looking at the audience.

你一边说话，一边看着观众。

You talk about that and just how to go about using that technique.

您谈到了这一点以及如何使用该技术。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，绝对是。

And this is some of the oldest research on public speaking anxiety.

这是关于公开演讲焦虑的最古老的研究之一。

It was research done in the '80s from the University of Oregon.

这是俄勒冈大学在 80 年代进行的研究。

So visualization, what it does is it allows you to see the event in a way that you have much more control over it so you can think about it.

所以可视化，它的作用是让你以一种对事件有更多控制的方式来看待事件，这样你就可以思考它。

So a good visualization involves some deep breathing to calm yourself.

因此，良好的想象需要深呼吸来让自己平静下来。

Either you close your eyes or you just look at a picture.

要么闭上眼睛，要么只看一张照片。

Maybe you can get a picture of the environment you're speaking in.

也许您可以了解您正在讲话的环境。

I often recommend speakers see the room even if they're not physically present, but get a picture online or some way envision yourself in the room, envision yourself in the room with the people you'll be speaking to.

我经常建议演讲者查看房间，即使他们不在场，但可以在网上获取一张照片或以某种方式想象自己在房间里，想象自己和将要讲话的人在房间里。

Often we know the individuals or some of them.

通常我们认识这些人或其中的一些人。

We can also go online and figure out who they are.

我们还可以上网查出他们是谁。

Matt Abrahams: So visualization is a really useful technique and you see yourself not just in the moment of speaking but getting up to the stage, delivering the presentation, seeing it being well received, thinking about how you step off the stage.

Matt Abrahams：因此，可视化是一种非常有用的技术，你不仅能在演讲的那一刻看到自己，还能看到自己走上舞台、发表演讲、看到它受到好评、思考你如何走下舞台。

And by taking yourself through that you in essence are a dress rehearsal even though you're not physically in the room.

通过让自己经历这些，你本质上就是一次彩排，即使你不在房间里。

And there's good research to say that this desensitizes people.

有充分的研究表明这会使人们变得不敏感。

We see athletes do this kind of thing all the time where they'll do visualization to help them and it really does work.

我们看到运动员一直在做这种事情，他们会通过可视化来帮助他们，这确实有效。

And like I said, there are virtual tools now that can help you do this where you can actually program it to have a certain size audience.

就像我说的，现在有虚拟工具可以帮助您做到这一点，您可以实际对其进行编程以吸引一​​定规模的受众。

You can even program some of these to have a responsive audience or a distracted audience.

您甚至可以对其中一些进行编程，以吸引积极响应的观众或分散注意力的观众。

All of this in service of just preparing you for what you're really going to see.

所有这一切都是为了让你为你真正要看到的东西做好准备。

Matt Abrahams: And the bottom line is this, what you're doing for yourself is making sure it's not new and novel.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：最重要的是，你为自己做的就是确保它不是新鲜的。

It's something been there, done that, even though if it was virtual or visualized in your mind, to help you feel better about the circumstance.

它是存在的、做过的事情，即使它是虚拟的或在你的脑海中形象化的，可以帮助你对这种情况感觉更好。

It gives you a sense of agency.

它给你一种代理感。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've done this myself actually.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上我自己也这么做过。

I gave a TEDx talk once and it was probably the scariest talk I've ever given and I spent a lot of time doing this and it doesn't actually have to take that much time.

我曾经做过一次 TEDx 演讲，这可能是我做过的最可怕的演讲，我花了很多时间来做这件事，但实际上并不需要花那么多时间。

It could be like a five-minute thing where you sit down, calm yourself, and then just picture the stuff.

这可能就像一个五分钟的事情，你坐下来，让自己平静下来，然后想象一下这些事情。

And ideally you do it a couple times, I imagine.

我想，理想情况下你应该这样做几次。

Matt Abrahams: That's right.

马特·亚伯拉罕：没错。

Good for you.

对你有好处。

And congratulations on giving a TEDx talk.

祝贺您发表 TEDx 演讲。

That is a high-stakes talk.

这是一次高风险的谈话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢。

That was before TEDx became super uncool.

那是在 TEDx 变得超级不酷之前。

It was still pretty early.

时间还很早。

It's out there in the internet in case people want to find it.

它就在互联网上，以防人们想要找到它。

Matt Abrahams: Don't say they're uncool.

马特·亚伯拉罕：别说他们不酷。

I'm doing one in two weeks.

我两周内要做一次。

Lenny Rachitsky: They're so cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们太酷了。

That is, they are cool.

也就是说，他们很酷。

Lenny Rachitsky: They're incredible.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们太不可思议了。

I'm impressed.

我印象深刻。

Matt Abrahams: I've done a number of them and I've coached many people and I think that there's a lot of value that they can provide people.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我做过很多这样的事情，也指导过很多人，我认为他们可以为人们提供很多价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: There is.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有。

There is.

有。

I think they've just become slightly less cool because now there's a lot of them, but they're still incredibly cool, I'm very proud.

我认为它们只是变得不那么酷了，因为现在有很多这样的东西，但它们仍然非常酷，我感到非常自豪。

Lenny Rachitsky: So on the visualization piece, I think we have a lot of techniques, but just on this one, part of it is continue to calm yourself as you're doing it.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在可视化部分，我认为我们有很多技巧，但就这一项而言，其中一部分就是在做的时候继续让自己平静下来。

I think that's really important because you want to help your body not connect to the stress that you're feeling like you're going to experience.

我认为这非常重要，因为你想帮助你的身体摆脱你即将经历的压力。

Matt Abrahams: That's correct.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

Any distance you can give yourself from the anxiety that you're feeling is helpful and there are lots of techniques that help give you a little bit of distance and visualization is one of those.

你可以让自己远离你所感受到的焦虑，任何距离都是有帮助的，有很多技巧可以帮助你保持一点距离，想象就是其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: One of my favorite techniques that it might be in this bucket, it might be on the spot advice bucket, but I think it works great here is what you call dare to be dull.

Lenny Rachitsky：我最喜欢的技巧之一可能是在这个桶中，它可能是现场建议桶，但我认为它在这里很有效，就是你所说的敢于沉闷。

Can you talk about that because I love that?

你能谈谈这个吗，因为我喜欢那个？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

I really leaned into this with the spontaneous speaking work that I've been doing as of late, but it applies to anybody speaking.

我最近一直在做即兴演讲工作，这对我来说确实很重要，但这适用于任何人演讲。

This is a notion that comes from the world of improvisation and when people hear improv, they often think of standup comedy, having to be funny.

这是一个来自即兴创作世界的概念，当人们听到即兴创作时，他们经常会想到单口喜剧，必须很有趣。

And that's not what improv is all about.

这并不是即兴表演的全部意义。

Improv is all about being present, being collaborative, being open, and it's a wonderful tool just to help you get present oriented.

即兴表演就是要活在当下、协作、开放，它是一个很好的工具，可以帮助你专注于当下。

Think of it as like meditation in action, but also it teaches lots of valuable skills for communication.

把它想象成行动中的冥想，但它也教会了许多有价值的沟通技巧。

Matt Abrahams: When we communicate, especially spontaneously, we want to do it really well.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当我们沟通时，尤其是自发地沟通时，我们希望做得很好。

We want to answer the question with the best answer, we want to give the right feedback, we want to be the most interesting in small talk and that puts a lot of pressure on ourselves.

我们想用最好的答案来回答问题，我们想提供正确的反馈，我们想成为闲聊中最有趣的人，这给我们自己带来了很大的压力。

And you can think of it this way, it's really taxing our cognitive bandwidth.

你可以这样想，这确实对我们的认知带宽造成了负担。

Matt Abrahams: Your brain in many ways is like a CPU, a computer.

Matt Abrahams：你的大脑在很多方面就像一个 CPU、一台计算机。

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works.

这不是一个完美的类比，但它确实有效。

And if I am constantly judging and evaluating everything I am saying against some standard of perfection, whatever that is, it means I have a limited amount of bandwidth to focus on what I'm actually saying and connecting to my audience.

如果我不断地根据某种完美标准来判断和评估我所说的一切，无论那是什么，这意味着我的带宽有限，无法专注于我实际所说的内容并与观众建立联系。

If you have a laptop or a phone that has lots of windows and apps open, each one of those is performing less well because of the other ones being open.

如果您的笔记本电脑或手机打开了许多窗口和应用程序，则其中每个窗口和应用程序的性能都会较差，因为其他窗口和应用程序都处于打开状态。

So I often say strive for connection over perfection by daring to be dull.

所以我经常说，要敢于变得迟钝，以追求联系而不是完美。

Just get the task done, just answer the question, just give the feedback, just be engaged in the small talk.

只要完成任务，只需回答问题，只需提供反馈，只需进行闲聊。

And by doing that you dial down the volume of self-evaluation, freeing up resources that can be used to really help you succeed.

通过这样做，你可以减少自我评价的数量，释放出可以用来真正帮助你成功的资源。

So dare to be dull is all about giving yourself permission to just be present and do what's needed.

因此，敢于沉闷就是允许自己在场并做需要做的事情。

And when you do that you find that you actually do quite a good job at it.

当你这样做时，你会发现你实际上做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: The last point I think is really important, you talk about this in your book.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为最后一点非常重要，你在书中谈到了这一点。

Is when you start with, "Okay, I'm just going to say something, it'll be fine." Without that pressure, you end up saying something better and more interesting and more insightful because you're less nervous about it.

当你开始说：“好吧，我只是想说点什么，没关系。”没有这种压力，你最终会说一些更好、更有趣、更有洞察力的话，因为你对此不那么紧张。

Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：完全正确。

We are often our biggest impediments to good communication because of the anxiety we bring to the party.

由于我们给聚会带来的焦虑，我们常常成为良好沟通的最大障碍。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I think this can apply to prepared talks too.

我认为这也适用于准备好的会谈。

When you're preparing a deck, don't put this pressure on yourself, "This has to be the best talk ever." Just like, "I'm going to do my best.

当你准备一副牌时，不要给自己施加压力，“这必须是有史以来最好的演讲。”就像，“我会尽力而为。

Let me just start with something that's good enough." People learn something and then from that, their editing ends up leading to something great in my experience.

让我从足够好的事情开始吧。”人们学到了一些东西，然后从中，他们的编辑最终导致了我的经验中的一些伟大的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, let's go to the next technique, and this is another one I've practiced and another guest on the podcast actually suggested this and these two remind me of using this one, which is to tell yourself when you're going to be giving a talk.

好吧，让我们进入下一个技巧，这是我练习过的另一个技巧，播客上的另一位嘉宾实际上建议了这个，这两个人提醒我使用这个技巧，即告诉自己何时要演讲。

"I'm excited.

“我很兴奋。

This is going to be a lot of fun.

这将会很有趣。

I'm so excited to give this talk." And reframe it from, "I'm nervous," to like, "No, I'm excited.

我很高兴能发表这次演讲。”并将其从“我很紧张”重新调整为“不，我很兴奋。

This is going to be amazing." Can you talk about that technique?

这将是令人惊奇的。”您能谈谈这项技术吗？

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当然。

So this is one of many cognitive reframing techniques.

所以这是众多认知重构技术之一。

It is often attributed to my friend and colleague, Alison Wood Brooks, she's at Harvard Business School who did some research into this.

这通常归功于我的朋友兼同事艾莉森·伍德·布鲁克斯（Alison Wood Brooks），她在哈佛商学院对此做了一些研究。

And what she found is...

而她发现的是……

Matt Abrahams: Well, first take a step back.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：好吧，首先退后一步。

When you get physically aroused by anxiety, you're under that fight or flight threat response.

当你因焦虑而身体兴奋时，你就会受到战斗或逃跑威胁反应。

It turns out that same response happens to your body when you're excited.

事实证明，当你兴奋时，你的身体也会发生同样的反应。

The human body has pretty much just one arousal response.

人体几乎只有一种唤醒反应。

Our heart beats faster, we breathe more shallow, we get a little shaky, but the big difference is how we label that.

我们的心跳加快，呼吸更浅，我们变得有点颤抖，但最大的区别在于我们如何标记这些。

So if I say, "Hey Lenny, guess what?

所以如果我说：“嘿莱尼，你猜怎么着？

Your colleague couldn't show up today and you need to go teach the class or you need to go give that presentation." You might feel your heart rate go up, get a little shaky, sweat on your brow and you're seeing that as negative.

你的同事今天不能出现，你需要去教课，或者你需要去做演讲。”您可能会感到心率上升、有点颤抖、额头冒汗，您认为这是负面的。

But if I said, "Hey Lenny, guess what?

但如果我说：“嘿莱尼，你猜怎么着？

You just won the lottery." Same physiological response would happen, but you would see that likely as more positive.

你刚刚中了彩票。”同样的生理反应也会发生，但你会认为这可能更积极。

Matt Abrahams: So how we label the arousal matters and what Alison's research and others have followed up with suggests is that when we feel those symptoms of anxiety, rather than seeing it as negative, say, "This is exciting.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：因此，我们如何标记性唤起问题以及艾莉森和其他人的研究表明，当我们感受到这些焦虑症状时，不要将其视为消极的，而是说：“这令人兴奋。

I get to share my point of view.

我可以分享我的观点。

I get to demonstrate my value." And in so doing by seeing it as more positive, it causes us by definition to relax.

我要证明我的价值。”通过将其视为更积极的做法，它自然会让我们放松。

And her research fascinatingly found that people actually were perceived as communicating better.

她的研究令人着迷地发现，人们实际上被认为沟通得更好。

And again that's because that pressure was taken off of them.

这又是因为他们的压力被减轻了。

So I challenge everybody to think about what are the exciting elements of the communication opportunities you have and really lean into those.

因此，我要求每个人思考一下你所拥有的沟通机会中哪些令人兴奋的元素，并真正投入其中。

And when you feel those anxiety symptoms, remind yourself these are signs of excitement.

当您感到这些焦虑症状时，请提醒自己这些是兴奋的迹象。

This is me being excited about sharing this information and it can really help.

我很高兴分享这些信息，它真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is another one I've done and it super works.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我做过的另一件事，效果非常好。

It sounds so trivial and so like, "Why would this do anything?" But I find you just say that just like, "I'm going to have so much fun.

这听起来很微不足道，就像是“为什么这会起作用？”但我发现你只是这么说，“我会玩得很开心。

This is going to be exciting." It does make an impact.

这将是令人兴奋的。”它确实产生了影响。

So another one to try, even though it sounds really trivial.

所以再尝试一下，尽管这听起来很微不足道。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kind of along these lines, there's another technique you recommend which is a mantra, having a mantra that you repeat to yourself.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，您推荐了另一种技巧，那就是口头禅，有一个您对自己重复的口头禅。

I don't know if it's kind of the same general idea, but you have a couple mantras that you recommend to people like "I have value to add" and things like that.

我不知道这是否是相同的总体想法，但是您向人们推荐了一些口头禅，例如“我有增值价值”之类的东西。

What advice do you have there?

你有什么建议？

Matt Abrahams: Yes, thank you.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，谢谢。

And that's mine.

那是我的。

The one that you shared is, "I have value to add." So if we were to really listen to the voice in our heads when it comes to communication, we say a lot of negative things to ourselves.

您分享的内容是“我可以增加价值”。因此，如果我们在沟通时真正倾听头脑中的声音，我们就会对自己说很多负面的话。

We say things like, "I'm not prepared.

我们会说这样的话：“我还没准备好。

I'm not going to be as good as this person.

我不会像这个人那么优秀。

I'm an imposter." We carry around with us a lot of this chatter that actually sets us up to not do well or to be more nervous.

我是个冒名顶替者。”我们随身携带着很多这样的闲聊，这些闲聊实际上会让我们表现不佳或更加紧张。

So if we can actually change that talk track, it can help us.

因此，如果我们能够真正改变这种谈话方式，它会对我们有所帮助。

Matt Abrahams: I'm not saying you have to go to an extreme and say, "I'm going to be the best communicator ever." Rather you can simply say as I do and as you alluded to.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我并不是说你必须走向极端并说：“我将成为有史以来最好的沟通者。”相反，你可以简单地像我和你提到的那样说。

What I'll say right before I speak is, "I have value to bring."

在我发言之前我要说的是，“我可以带来价值。”

Matt Abrahams: Often when we are in communicative situations, especially at work, people want to hear from us.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：通常，当我们处于交流状态时，尤其是在工作中，人们希望听到我们的声音。

We've been invited to speak, we're on the agenda for the meeting.

我们被邀请发言，我们已被列入会议议程。

There is value people can take from our communication and we just have to remind ourselves of that.

人们可以从我们的沟通中获得价值，我们只需要提醒自己这一点。

So having some little mantra that you can say that's not over the top but just makes sense.

因此，有一些小口头禅，你可以说这并不夸张，但很有道理。

It could be as simple as you've got this, or I'm prepared, or I know my stuff.

它可以很简单，比如你已经掌握了这个，或者我已经准备好了，或者我知道我的东西。

And I actually encourage people to write it on a post-it note if you're old school, sometimes people put it into their phones as a reminder.

如果你是老派，我实际上鼓励人们把它写在便利贴上，有时人们会把它放进手机里作为提醒。

So like a minute or two minutes before they're set to give the presentation or participate in the meeting, it flashes up.

因此，就像在他们准备进行演示或参加会议之前一两分钟，它会闪烁。

We just have to turn off or turn down the noise of that internal negative self-talk.

我们只需要关掉或降低内心消极自言自语的噪音。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are some other mantras that you found helpful or that people use?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为有帮助或人们使用的其他咒语是什么？

Matt Abrahams: They're very personal to different people.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：对于不同的人来说，它们是非常个性化的。

I was just coaching a senior leader the other day who his mantra was, "Last time this went well." He's a leader, he does a lot of the same presentations and just by saying last time this went well, reminds him that it's likely to go well this time.

前几天我刚刚在指导一位高级领导，他的座右铭是：“上次进展顺利。”他是一位领导者，他做了很多相同的演示，只是通过说上次进展顺利，提醒他这次可能会进展顺利。

We are very susceptible to catastrophizing when we're very nervous about things, especially when we're exposed in front of people.

当我们对事情非常紧张时，特别是当我们暴露在人们面前时，我们很容易陷入灾难性的境地。

Not in the Brady Bunch exposure we talked about earlier, but when we're out there speaking or communicating and simply reminding ourselves that often they go very well is helpful.

不是在我们之前谈到的布雷迪·邦奇曝光中，而是当我们在那里讲话或交流时，简单地提醒自己，他们通常进展顺利是有帮助的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

There's another one that I think you shared which is, "It's not about me, it's about my content."

我想你还分享了另一点，那就是“这不是关于我的，而是关于我的内容的。”

Matt Abrahams: Yes, exactly.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，完全正确。

That's another one.

那是另一件事。

That's a great one.

那真是太棒了。

It can be very helpful.

这可能非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: The one you shared about, "I've got this," reminds me, my wife took a course with the Artist's Way writer, Julia Cameron I think is her name.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你分享的那个“我明白了”提醒我，我的妻子参加了《艺术家之路》作家朱莉娅·卡梅伦的课程，我想她的名字就是她的名字。

And she has this piece of advice where you name your critic, your inner critic that's always telling you to stop doing stuff.

她有一条建议，你可以说出你的批评者，你内心的批评者，它总是告诉你停止做事。

You name him or her.

你说出他或她的名字。

So I name mine Jim.

所以我给我的名字命名为吉姆。

And then when he or she is giving you things you don't want to hear, you're just like, "Jim, I got this.

然后当他或她给你一些你不想听的话时，你就会说：“吉姆，我明白了。

Jim, I don't need this advice."

吉姆，我不需要这个建议。”

Matt Abrahams: There is a lot of evidence on personifying the things that challenge us and then having conversations with it.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：有很多证据表明，将挑战我们的事物拟人化，然后与之进行对话。

It's a way of rationalizing some of the things that we do that are quite negative.

这是一种合理化我们所做的一些非常消极的事情的方式。

So something there for sure to be thinking about.

所以肯定要考虑一些事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

Bonus advice.

奖金建议。

That was-

那是——

Matt Abrahams: And the cool thing that what you're highlighting is there is a lot of advice out there on how to manage anxiety.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：你强调的很酷的事情是，有很多关于如何管理焦虑的建议。

Many of us feel like we're the only people who feel this nervous because we see our colleagues, our friends or Ted talks as you were talking about, and we see these people communicating just so effortlessly.

我们中的许多人都觉得我们是唯一感到如此紧张的人，因为我们看到我们的同事、我们的朋友或泰德像你所说的那样谈话，我们看到这些人如此轻松地沟通。

Often a lot of work went into that and we don't see that work.

通常，我们需要做很多工作，但我们却看不到这些工作。

And sometimes just knowing that others experience it makes us feel better.

有时，仅仅知道其他人经历过这种事就会让我们感觉好一些。

Matt Abrahams: If you'll allow me, I'll tell this very quick story.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：如果您允许的话，我会讲一个非常简短的故事。

I was in the San Francisco Airport, this was several years ago after my Speaking Up Without Freaking Out book came out, and my name was called over the PA system at the airport counter.

我当时在旧金山机场，那是几年前，在我的《不惊慌失措》一书出版后，机场柜台的广播系统叫到了我的名字。

The seat that I was supposed to sit in was broken and they wanted to talk to me about it.

我应该坐的座位坏了，他们想和我谈谈这件事。

So when I came away from that, somebody came up to me and said, "Hey, you're the guy that wrote that book on speaking anxiety." I said, "Yes." And I said, "What do you know about it?" He goes, "Oh, I bought the book." I said, "Oh, was it helpful?" He says, "Incredibly helpful, but I didn't read it." I'm like, "This is weird.

所以当我摆脱这个困境时，有人走过来对我说：“嘿，你就是写那本关于演讲焦虑的书的人。”我说：“是的。”我说：“你对此了解多少？”他说：“哦，我买了这本书。”我说：“哦，这有用吗？”他说：“非常有帮助，但我没有读过。”我想，“这很奇怪。

So you're telling me the book was helpful and you didn't read it?" And so I said, "Tell me more." And he said, "Just knowing that a book like that existed made me feel better because I don't know you and I know you certainly didn't write the book for me.

所以你是说这本书很有帮助，但你却没有读过？”所以我说：“告诉我更多。”他说：“只要知道有这样一本书的存在，我就感觉好多了，因为我不认识你，而且我知道你肯定不是为我写这本书。

So it implies that lots of people have this issue."

所以这意味着很多人都有这个问题。”

Matt Abrahams: And just by normalizing the anxiety, which by the way is the normal condition.

马特·亚伯拉罕：只要使焦虑正常化，顺便说一句，这是正常情况。

Those of us who study this believe it is innate to being human to feel nervous communicating in front of others.

我们这些研究这一问题的人相信，在别人面前交流时感到紧张是人类与生俱来的。

So sometimes just reminding yourself that you're not alone and that others have it can actually help reduce the pressure that we feel.

因此，有时只要提醒自己，你并不孤单，其他人也有这种情况，实际上可以帮助减轻我们感受到的压力。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such an important point that I am kicking myself for not starting with this also because I think this is something people don't realize.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常重要的一点，我为自己没有从这一点开始而自责，因为我认为这是人们没有意识到的事情。

They see all their execs at their company speaking incredibly well, so confidently, so articulately and just like, "Oh my God, how will I ever be someone like that?" Is there anything more you can share of just like you have tons of students that go through your class, you see these issues, they're more transparent, you think about their challenges, I imagine.

他们看到公司里所有的高管都讲得非常好，那么自信，那么清晰，就像是，“天哪，我怎么能成为那样的人呢？”你还有什么可以分享的吗，就像你有大量的学生参加你的课程一样，你看到这些问题，他们更加透明，我想你会考虑他们的挑战。

Is there anything more you could share there to help people feel better?

您还可以分享什么来帮助人们感觉更好吗？

Like this is most people, even when you see someone amazing at speaking, they are also probably nervous.

大多数人都是这样，即使你看到一个人说话很厉害，他们也可能会感到紧张。

Matt Abrahams: With regard to that, I think we just need to talk about it more.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：关于这一点，我认为我们只需要多讨论一下。

We need to share about it.

我们需要分享它。

I mean, I always will share that I still have anxiety in speaking in certain situations and it's something that's taken me a long time to work on.

我的意思是，我总是会分享，在某些情况下我仍然对演讲感到焦虑，这是我花了很长时间才能解决的问题。

I also help people understand that it's not a light switch.

我还帮助人们了解它不是电灯开关。

It's not like you either have it or you don't.

这并不是说你要么有，要么没有。

It's a process.

这是一个过程。

And so the idea is over time, we will feel less nervous if we apply some of these principles you and I are talking about.

因此，随着时间的推移，如果我们应用你和我正在讨论的一些原则，我们就会感到不那么紧张。

Matt Abrahams: A great technique to help people that often isn't talked about is many of us feel much more comfortable in conversation than we do in presenting.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯（Matt Abrahams）：有一个很好的技巧可以帮助那些经常不被谈论的人，那就是我们中的许多人在谈话中比在演讲中感觉更自在。

And conversation is a back and forth.

谈话是来回的。

So you can actually set up a lot of your communication situations, a presentation, a meeting, et cetera, as conversations.

因此，您实际上可以将许多沟通场景、演示、会议等设置为对话。

And you don't even have to have a conversation with the audience.

你甚至不需要与观众交谈。

You can simply have it with yourself.

您可以简单地随身携带。

For example, what would it be like if you were to start a presentation by saying, "Today I have three questions I'd like to answer.

例如，如果您在演讲开始时说：“今天我想回答三个问题。

Question number one is..." And you state the question and then you answer it.

第一个问题是……”你提出问题然后回答。

I am actually having a conversation with myself in that moment where I am asking myself a question.

在那一刻，我实际上是在与自己对话，问自己一个问题。

I happen to know the answer, I give the answer.

我碰巧知道答案，我给出答案。

This again, just like the reframing as excitement versus anxiety, this is a reframe.

这又是一次，就像兴奋与焦虑的重构一样，这是一次重构。

I'm not presenting, I'm having a conversation.

我不是在演讲，我是在交谈。

And in so doing it ratchets down that anxiety.

这样做可以减轻这种焦虑。

Matt Abrahams: So we need to talk about it.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：所以我们需要讨论一下。

We need to share our experiences with developing anxiety management plans.

我们需要分享制定焦虑管理计划的经验。

We realize it's not binary, it's not I have it or I don't.

我们意识到它不是二元的，不是我有或没有。

And we start seeing where we feel more comfortable and how can we bring that comfort level into the types of situations that make us nervous, like simply having a conversation with yourself.

我们开始了解哪里让我们感觉更舒服，以及如何将这种舒适度带入让我们紧张的情况，比如简单地与自己对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have another technique I think that's different, maybe it's exactly the same, which is to ask a question of somebody else as you're talking, which is I think deflects attention from you.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你还有另一种技巧，它是不同的，也许是完全相同的，那就是在你说话的时候问别人一个问题，我认为这会转移你的注意力。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

So we talked about the way we desensitize through visualization.

所以我们讨论了通过可视化来脱敏的方法。

The other thing we can do is distract.

我们能做的另一件事就是分散注意力。

Matt Abrahams: I coached a very senior leader at Google who got very nervous when he was up in front of people, and what we did is we distract his audience.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我在谷歌指导过一位非常高级的领导者，当他在人们面前时会非常紧张，而我们所做的就是分散他的观众的注意力。

So he would start every single presentation saying these words, "Good morning, let's watch this video." And he'd show a 30-second video that was on topic about something they were going to talk about in the meeting.

因此，他会在每次演示开始时都说：“早上好，让我们看这个视频。”他会播放一段 30 秒的视频，主题是他们将在会议中讨论的内容。

And when the video stopped, he would then facilitate a discussion of what that video was about and then he would ease into his content.

当视频停止时，他会引导大家讨论该视频的内容，然后他会轻松地进入他的内容。

So he went from being a presenter to being a facilitator or somebody who was having a conversation with the audience.

所以他从一个演讲者变成了一个主持人或者一个与观众交谈的人。

That made him feel so much better.

这让他感觉好多了。

Matt Abrahams: And so all of us can do things that can distract our audience.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：所以我们所有人都可以做一些分散观众注意力的事情。

Now when I say distract, I don't mean take them on a tangent that's not relevant to what you're saying, but maybe you ask them a question, maybe you tell them a story, maybe you show them a video or ask them to read something.

现在，当我说分散注意力时，我并不是说让他们偏离与你所说的内容无关的切线，而是也许你问他们一个问题，也许你给他们讲一个故事，也许你向他们展示一个视频或要求他们读一些东西。

So there are lots of things that you can do that will help get the attention off you for just a little bit so that you can then focus on what works for you or take that deep breath that'll help calm you down.

因此，您可以做很多事情来暂时分散您的注意力，这样您就可以专注于对您有用的事情，或者深呼吸以帮助您平静下来。

All of these are very useful techniques.

所有这些都是非常有用的技术。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's interesting once you start talking, it's okay usually.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，一旦你开始说话就很有趣，通常就没问题了。

It's the beginning part that you need .

这是您需要的开始部分。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, most people are most nervous one minute before speaking and the first minute of speaking.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，大多数人在演讲前一分钟和演讲的第一分钟是最紧张的。

And if you can find ways to get yourself through that, then it becomes much easier for most people.

如果你能找到方法让自己渡过难关，那么对于大多数人来说，事情就会变得容易得多。

There are some people who that's not true for, but for most people that's the way it works.

对于有些人来说，情况并非如此，但对于大多数人来说，这就是它的运作方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, next technique that actually another guest mentioned, and we spent a bunch of time on this, a guest named Johnny Miller, which is a breathing technique.

好吧，下一个技巧实际上是另一位客人提到的，我们花了很多时间在这个上，一位名叫约翰尼·米勒的客人，这是一种呼吸技巧。

And just to give a little context from what he taught us is that 80% of our neurons go from our body to our brain versus 20% is our brain telling our body what to feel.

从他教给我们的内容来看，我们 80% 的神经元从我们的身体转移到我们的大脑，而 20% 的神经元是我们的大脑告诉我们的身体要感受什么。

And so this research shows that what our body's feeling is what our brain's going to think.

因此，这项研究表明，我们身体的感受就是我们大脑的思考。

So if our body's acting nervous, we're going to think, oh, we're nervous.

因此，如果我们的身体表现出紧张，我们就会想，哦，我们很紧张。

And if you change the state of your body, your mind feels different.

如果你改变身体的状态，你的思想就会有所不同。

Matt Abrahams: I love this stuff.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我喜欢这个东西。

This research, embodied cognition is what it's called, is fascinating to me.

这项研究，即所谓的具身认知，对我来说很着迷。

I'll share one of my most favorite studies in this.

我将在此分享我最喜欢的一项研究。

There was a researcher at Duke, I think it was Duke, who...

杜克大学有一位研究人员，我认为是杜克大学，他...

The only experimental variation that he did is he had people hold something that was cold in their hand, like an iced coffee versus a warm coffee.

他所做的唯一实验变化是让人们手里拿着冷的东西，比如冰咖啡和热咖啡。

And then he asked the participants to make ratings of people.

然后他要求参与者对人们进行评分。

And if you were holding something cold, you saw the person as a colder person, as more aloof and more distant, and if you were holding something warm, you saw them as more collaborative and embracing.

如果你拿着冷的东西，你会认为这个人是一个更冷的人，更冷漠，更疏远，而如果你拿着温暖的东西，你会认为他们更具合作性和拥抱性。

I find this stuff fascinating.

我觉得这东西很有趣。

What our body feels, our minds think.

我们的身体感觉到什么，我们的思想就会想到什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So along those lines, there's a technique that you recommend that he recommended, but I think it's a great reminder of the double exhale where you breathe in and then you exhale twice as long.

因此，沿着这些思路，你推荐了他推荐的一种技巧，但我认为这很好地提醒了你吸气然后呼气两倍的时间。

Can you talk about that and tell people about it?

你能谈谈这个并告诉人们吗？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

Breathing is very helpful in managing so many of our anxiety symptoms.

呼吸对于控制我们的许多焦虑症状非常有帮助。

It slows down the heart rate, makes our voice sound more normal because when we get nervous, we breathe shallow and that changes...

它会减慢心率，让我们的声音听起来更正常，因为当我们紧张时，我们呼吸会变浅，这会改变......

Our voice is a wind instrument, it changes the way we sound, can reduce some of the shakiness.

我们的声音是一种管乐器，它改变了我们发声的方式，可以减少一些颤抖。

So deep belly breathing, the kind you do if you've ever done yoga or tai chi, qigong, really important to do and there are a whole bunch of variations on it.

所以深腹式呼吸，如果你曾经练习过瑜伽、太极拳、气功，那么深呼吸真的很重要，而且有很多变化。

The one you're talking about is the double inhalation where you're taking an inhale in until you feel completely full and then you sneak in a little extra air and then you take a long exhale.

你所说的双吸气是指吸气，直到感觉完全饱为止，然后再吸入一点额外的空气，然后长长地呼气。

People call it box breathing and other types of breathing.

人们称之为箱式呼吸和其他类型的呼吸。

Matt Abrahams: The bottom line is this, what's critical to the relaxation response is the exhale.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯（Matt Abrahams）：底线是这样的，对放松反应至关重要的是呼气。

Lots of ways to inhale, lots of ways to exhale.

吸气的方式有很多种，呼气的方式也有很多种。

You want your exhale to be longer than the inhale.

您希望呼气时间比吸气时间长。

The magic of the relaxation happens during the exhale.

放松的魔力发生在呼气期间。

So I have a rule of thumb, I jokingly call it a rule of lung.

所以我有一个经验法则，我开玩笑地称之为肺法则。

You want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale.

您希望呼气时间是吸气时间的两倍。

So if you take a three count in, even if you sneak in a little extra air as we were talking about, take a six count out.

因此，如果你数三，即使你像我们所说的那样偷偷地吸入了一点额外的空气，也要数六。

And it is that way that you will feel...

正是这样，你会感觉...

Not only will your body physiologically feel less stress, you'll be more focused in a present moment and not catastrophizing about all the things that might happen in the future.

您的身体不仅会在生理上感受到更少的压力，而且您会更加专注于当下，而不是对未来可能发生的所有事情感到灾难性的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Yeah, so it's like another example of this sounds so trivial and why would breathing differently do have any impact on my nervousness?

是的，这就像另一个例子，这听起来很微不足道，为什么不同的呼吸会对我的紧张产生任何影响？

But one, there's all this research that shows that it does, and two, if you try it, and this is another one I use, is it actually works very quickly and you do it a few times and like, wow, I feel really different.

但一是，所有这些研究都表明它确实如此，二是，如果你尝试一下，这是我使用的另一种，它实际上起效非常快，你做了几次，就像，哇，我感觉真的很不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: It is interesting you put these together.

Lenny Rachitsky：你把这些放在一起很有趣。

From the way I've seen it, these are two different techniques, but I've never tried them together.

从我的角度来看，这是两种不同的技术，但我从未一起尝试过它们。

One is...

其一是...

I think Huberman is big on this one.

我认为休伯曼在这一点上很重要。

All his clips are always talking about this.

他所有的剪辑都在谈论这个。

One of you inhale fully and then you inhale a little bit more and there's some capillaries or something in your lungs that fill up that-

你们中的一个人充分吸气，然后再吸一点，肺部里就会有一些毛细血管或其他东西充满——

Lenny Rachitsky: And then there's the 4, 4, 8 is the way this other guest shared is like breathe in four seconds, hold it four seconds, breathe out for eight seconds.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后是 4、4、8，这是另一位嘉宾分享的方式，就像呼吸四秒，保持四秒，呼气八秒。

But I'm going to try both.

但我打算两者都尝试。

Wow.

哇。

That's going to double up my calmness.

这会让我更加平静。

Matt Abrahams: You'll be so mellow, nothing will bother you.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：你会变得如此成熟，没有什么会打扰你。

Lenny Rachitsky: So mellow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太柔和了。

Okay.

好的。

Are there any other techniques that you love that you find people find really helpful in calming their anxiety?

还有其他你喜欢的、你发现人们发现真正有助于缓解焦虑的技巧吗？

Matt Abrahams: Well, so the first book had 50 techniques and not all 50 techniques work for everybody.

Matt Abrahams：嗯，所以第一本书有 50 种技巧，但并非所有 50 种技巧都适合每个人。

One that I personally think is a lot of fun is getting present oriented because when I'm in the present, by definition I'm not worried about the future.

我个人认为很有趣的一点就是以现在为导向，因为当我活在当下时，根据定义，我并不担心未来。

And many of our anxiety comes from our fear of a potential negative future outcome like, "I'm not going to achieve my goal." So if I can do anything to be in the present moment, that helps me out a lot.

我们的许多焦虑来自于我们对未来潜在的负面结果的恐惧，比如“我不会实现我的目标”。因此，如果我能做任何事情来活在当下，那对我有很大帮助。

Matt Abrahams: Something I do as part of my personal anxiety management plan is I say tongue twisters.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：作为我个人焦虑管理计划的一部分，我做的一件事就是说绕口令。

Tongue twisters for me are a great way to get present oriented.

对我来说，绕口令是一种了解当下的好方法。

You can't say it right if you don't say the tongue twister if you're not focused on the present moment.

如果你不专注于当下，不说绕口令，你就不能说对。

And it also warms up your voice.

它还可以温暖你的声音。

A lot of nervous speakers get so inside their head that they don't warm up their voice.

许多紧张的演讲者头脑过于紧张，以至于无法让自己的声音变得温暖起来。

And we all know if you've ever done any exercise or competed in any sports, you should warm up first.

我们都知道，如果您曾经做过任何锻炼或参加过任何运动，您应该先热身。

We have this mistaken notion that we can go from silence to brilliance without warming up.

我们有一个错误的观念，认为无需热身就可以从沉默走向辉煌。

And I like saying tongue twisters out loud to get present oriented and to warm up my voice.

我喜欢大声说绕口令来吸引注意力并温暖我的声音。

So that's one that I often recommend.

所以这是我经常推荐的一种。

People think it's silly, but I have people who are like, that really works.

人们认为这很愚蠢，但我有些人认为这确实有效。

It really helps me to get centered and to warm up.

它确实帮助我集中精力并热身。

And so I like that one a lot.

所以我非常喜欢这个。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's share a couple of tongue twisters.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们分享一些绕口令。

What are some recommendations?

有哪些建议？

Matt Abrahams: I will only share my tongue twister, I say Lenny, if you promise to say it after me.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我只会分享我的绕口令，我说莱尼，如果你答应在我后面说的话。

Matt Abrahams: This is my favorite tongue twister.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：这是我最喜欢的绕口令。

It takes five seconds to say, it's three phrases long.

说完需要五秒钟，一共三句话。

And if you say it wrong, you say a naughty word.

如果你说错了，你就说一句调皮的话。

So I'm going to be listening as for all your listeners.

所以我将像所有听众一样倾听。

So are you prepared?

那么你准备好了吗？

So it goes as follows, I slit a sheet.

事情如下，我切了一张纸。

Matt Abrahams: And on that slitted sheet I sit.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我坐在那张开缝的床单上。

Lenny Rachitsky: And on that slitted sheet I sit.

Lenny Rachitsky：我坐在那张开缝的床单上。

Matt Abrahams: Very good.

马特·亚伯拉罕：非常好。

You didn't say that naughty word.

你没有说那句难听的话。

I'm sure you can imagine what it would've been.

我相信你可以想象那会是什么样子。

Matt Abrahams: A lot of danger.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：很多危险。

But in that moment you weren't thinking about, what's the next question I'm going to ask Matt?

但在那一刻你没有想到，我要问马特的下一个问题是什么？

Or how much longer do we have in the podcast?

或者我们的播客还有多长时间？

No, you were simply focused on what we were saying and trying to say it without saying a naughty word.

不，你只是专注于我们所说的话，并试图说出来而不说任何顽皮的话。

So that's that -

所以就是这样——

Lenny Rachitsky: And not have to censor this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：并且不必审查这个播客。

Matt Abrahams: I've only had to bleep one guest in all my years of doing this.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯（Matt Abrahams）：在我从事这项工作的这些年里，我只需要对一位客人发出哔哔声。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

We're going to link to that.

我们将链接到该内容。

Is there any other ones you want to share before we move on to getting better at speaking on the spot?

在我们继续提高现场演讲之前，您还有其他想要分享的吗？

Matt Abrahams: Well, the last one I'll say is, and this one is another one that falls in the kind of funny category, but there's research that says that when you swear, curse, it actually helps you reduce anxiety.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：嗯，我要说的最后一个是，这是另一个属于有趣类别的问题，但有研究表明，当你发誓、咒骂时，它实际上可以帮助你减少焦虑。

When you curse, you release a flood of neurochemicals that blunt out the neurochemicals associated with anxiety, cortisol being a big one.

当你咒骂时，你会释放出大量的神经化学物质，这些化学物质会削弱与焦虑相关的神经化学物质，其中皮质醇是其中的一个重要成分。

So you get a big dopamine hit, for example, serotonin when you swear.

因此，当你说脏话时，你会得到大量的多巴胺，例如血清素。

So I'm not saying get up on stage and drop an F-bomb, but my students love this.

所以我并不是说站上舞台并扔下脏话，但我的学生喜欢这个。

I mean, it's like, "Matt's giving me permission to swear." And no, that's not what I'm doing, but it's an interesting technique that seems to help some people is to curse not necessarily in front of people, but that can help.

我的意思是，这就像是“马特允许我发誓。”不，这不是我正在做的事情，但这是一种有趣的技术，似乎可以帮助某些人，不一定是在人们面前咒骂，但这可以提供帮助。

And it also has an analgesic effect.

而且它还有镇痛作用。

It actually reduces pain as well.

它实际上也减轻了疼痛。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。

I could see during birth women screaming curse words.

我可以看到妇女在分娩时尖叫着咒骂。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

Well, I'm not going to say what I heard when my kids were born, but...

好吧，我不会说我的孩子出生时我听到了什么，但是......

Lenny Rachitsky: But again, this could double up with the tongue twister where you just go for it and say-

Lenny Rachitsky：但是，这可能会与绕口令一起出现，你只需说——

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, every tongue twister has to start with Nantucket and then we're good.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，每一个绕口令都必须从楠塔基特岛开始，然后我们就可以了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda, and I mean that literally.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的，我的意思是字面上的意思。

I use Coda every day to help me plan each episode of this very podcast.

我每天都使用 Coda 来帮助我计划这个播客的每一集。

It's where I keep my content calendar, my guest research, and also the questions that I plan to ask each guest.

这是我保存内容日历、客人研究以及我计划向每位客人询问的问题的地方。

Also, during the recording itself, I have a Coda page up to remind myself what I want to talk about.

另外，在录音过程中，我会打开一个 Coda 页面来提醒自己要谈论什么。

Coda is an all-in-one platform that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets and apps to help you and your team get more done.

Coda 是一个一体化平台，结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，可帮助您和您的团队完成更多工作。

Now is the perfect time to get started with Coda, especially its extensive planning capabilities.

现在是开始使用 Coda 的最佳时机，尤其是它广泛的规划功能。

With Coda, you can stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycles in one location.

借助 Coda，您可以通过在一个地点管理您的计划周期来保持一致并加快发货速度。

You can set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders.

您可以设置和衡量 OKR，并在团队和利益相关者之间具有完全可见性。

You can map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

您可以映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险区域。

Plus you can access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making to PRDs.

此外，您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策再到 PRD 的所有内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you want a platform that empowers your team to strategize, plan and track goals together, you can get started with Coda today for free.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想要一个平台，让您的团队能够共同制定战略、计划和跟踪目标，那么您今天就可以免费开始使用 Coda。

And if you want to see for yourself why product teams at high-growth companies like Pinterest, Figma and Qualtrics run on Coda, take advantage of the special limited-time offer just for startups.

如果您想亲自了解为什么 Pinterest、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等高增长公司的产品团队在 Coda 上运行，请利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.

前往 coda.io/lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit.

这是 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的信用。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's shift to talking about talking on the spot.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我们谈谈现场谈话。

Matt Abrahams: I see you said shift very carefully.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我看到你说的转变非常小心。

I appreciate that.

我很欣赏这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Now we're going to be so, so careful, I don't want this podcast flagged and for adults only.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在我们要非常非常小心，我不想让这个播客被标记并且只适合成人。

Okay, shift to a new topic.

好吧，转移到一个新话题。

You have a whole book about how to get better speaking on the spot.

你有一本关于如何提高现场演讲水平的书。

And I think why this is important is again, what I said at the beginning that I think most of our "public speaking" is not planned public speaking.

我认为为什么这很重要，我一开始就说过，我认为我们的大部分“公开演讲”都不是计划好的公开演讲。

There's people asking for feedback in a meeting, people wanting you to give a toast, Q&A as we talked about.

正如我们所讨论的，有人在会议中寻求反馈，有人希望你举杯，进行问答。

So what I want to do is you have advice for broadly getting better at these things and then you have advice for very specifically how to get better at giving better toast, doing better Q&A, getting better at small talk and things like that.

所以我想做的是，你可以为你提供广泛地在这些事情上做得更好的建议，然后你可以得到非常具体的建议，告诉你如何更好地提供更好的吐司，更好地进行问答，更好地闲聊等等。

So I want to start with the broad advice and then get into each of these.

所以我想从广泛的建议开始，然后逐一讨论。

That sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: How about you share your favorite techniques for broadly getting better at speaking on the spot, and then we'll see where that goes?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能否分享一下您最喜欢的技巧，以广泛提高现场演讲水平，然后我们看看效果如何？

Matt Abrahams: Sure.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当然。

So the first thing in helping yourself feel better, speaking spontaneously, which is the vast majority of our communication, the plan presenting, the practiced pitch, the meeting with agenda pale in comparison to the times that we are spontaneously speaking.

因此，帮助自己感觉更好的第一件事就是自发发言，这是我们绝大多数的沟通、计划演示、练习的推销、有议程的会议与我们自发发言的时代相比显得苍白无力。

And the first thing that is important for everybody to know is we can all get better at it.

每个人都知道的第一件事是我们都可以做得更好。

That's the fundamental bottom line.

这是根本底线。

Many of us feel like we're either born with the gift of gab or we're not.

我们中的许多人都觉得自己要么天生就有能说会道的天赋，要么就没有。

And so the first thing we have to realize is we can get better at it.

因此，我们必须意识到的第一件事是我们可以做得更好。

Matt Abrahams: The second big point to make is you actually have to prepare to be spontaneous.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：第二个要点是你实际上必须做好自发的准备。

And that's counterintuitive, but it is through preparation that we get better at it.

这是违反直觉的，但通过准备我们才能做得更好。

And if you think about it, if you think about an athlete, when an athlete is doing their sport, they are being spontaneous, they are responding to the conditions that present themselves to them.

如果你想一想，如果你想一下运动员，当运动员进行运动时，他们是自发的，他们是在对呈现在他们面前的条件做出反应。

What helps them do well is all the preparation and practice that they've done.

帮助他们取得好成绩的是他们所做的所有准备和练习。

So there are lots of analogs to this, but when we think about it in of communication, it seems foreign, but when you think about it in athletics or jazz music, it's like of course you would prepare and practice.

所以有很多类似的东西，但是当我们在交流中思考它时，它似乎很陌生，但是当你在体育或爵士音乐中思考它时，就像你当然会准备和练习一样。

Those are the two big underlying principles to helping people get better.

这是帮助人们变得更好的两大基本原则。

Matt Abrahams: The next level has to do with we have to attack both mindset and approach and the actual messaging itself.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：下一个层次与我们必须攻击心态、方法以及实际消息本身有关。

The only way I have found to help people get better at this is to look at how we approach it, our mindset, and then how we actually craft the messages through structure and focus that help us be better.

我发现帮助人们在这方面做得更好的唯一方法是看看我们如何处理它，我们的心态，然后我们如何通过结构和重点来实际传达信息，以帮助我们做得更好。

So that's the gradual process from the broadest level about how we have to go about making this better for ourselves.

因此，这就是从最广泛的层面来看我们必须如何让自己变得更好的渐进过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe let's dig into the structure.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许让我们深入研究一下结构。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is your advice for how to think about structuring if you're on the spot, like, "Oh, shit, how do I share something smart ?"

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你在现场，比如“哦，该死，我该如何分享一些聪明的东西？”，你对如何思考结构化有什么建议？

Matt Abrahams: See, the bad word came out, so you're ready for my tongue twister.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：看，坏话已经出来了，所以你准备好接受我的绕口令了。

So structure is critical.

所以结构很关键。

In spontaneous speaking, most of us, because we feel the intense pressure, the anxiety we just talked about, we just spew out information, we list and itemize information.

在自发的讲话中，我们大多数人，因为我们感受到了我们刚才谈到的巨大压力、焦虑，我们只是滔滔不绝地吐出信息，我们列出并逐项列出信息。

We take our audience on the journey of our own discovery of what we want to say as we're saying it, and our brains are not wired for lists of information.

我们带着观众踏上我们自己发现我们想说的话的旅程，而我们的大脑并不擅长处理信息列表。

In fact, Lenny, how many items do you need to buy from the grocery store before you actually have to physically write it down?

事实上，莱尼，在你实际写下来之前，你需要从杂货店购买多少商品？

For me it's four.

对我来说是四个。

Anything over four, I'm going to forget something.

超过四点，我就会忘记一些东西。

Our brains aren't wired for lists, right?

我们的大脑不擅长列出清单，对吧？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, right, exactly.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，没错，完全正确。

Yeah, no, I'm old school.

是的，不，我是老派。

I actually put it on a piece of paper, but the point is that we're not wired that way.

我实际上把它写在一张纸上，但重点是我们不是这样连接的。

Our brains are actually wired for story, for connection, a logical connection of ideas.

我们的大脑实际上是为故事、联系、思想的逻辑联系而连接的。

So it's about connecting those pieces together.

所以关键是将这些部分连接在一起。

So a structure is nothing more than a beginning, a middle, and an end.

因此，结构只不过是开始、中间和结束。

A package of information.

一包信息。

The structure that almost everybody listening in is familiar with is one that comes from the world of advertising.

几乎每个听众都熟悉的结构是来自广告领域的结构。

Most advertisements are set up as problem, solution, benefit.

大多数广告都是以问题、解决方案、利益为主题的。

There's some problem in the world, here's how we solve it with our product or service, and here's how you benefit from it.

世界上存在一些问题，以下是我们如何通过我们的产品或服务解决该问题，以下是您如何从中受益。

That's a structure.

那是一个结构。

It's a logical beginning, middle, and end.

这是一个合乎逻辑的开始、中间和结束。

These items have a connection.

这些项目有联系。

So by finding a structure that you can rely on when put on the spot, it halves your burden.

因此，通过找到一个在现场可以依赖的结构，可以减轻你的负担。

Matt Abrahams: When you're put on the spot, you have to think about what to say and how to say it.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当你处于困境时，你必须考虑该说什么以及如何说。

The structure tells you how to say it, and then you just have to think about what to put into it.

结构告诉你如何表达，然后你只需要考虑要放入什么内容即可。

So it's like having a recipe.

所以这就像有一个食谱。

If I have a recipe and I have good ingredients, I can cook a good meal.

如果我有食谱并且有好的食材，我就能煮出一顿美餐。

So there are lots of structures.

所以有很多结构。

Matt Abrahams: The whole second part of the book Think Faster, Talk Smarter is specific structures for specific situations, introducing yourself, making an apology, giving feedback.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：这本书的第二部分是针对特定情况的特定结构，介绍自己，道歉，提供反馈。

And I'm not saying every time you give an apology or give feedback that you have to follow these structures.

我并不是说每次道歉或提供反馈时都必须遵循这些结构。

It just gives you a place to go when you're in that moment where you're like, "Where do I go?

当你想“我该去哪里？

How do I start?"

我该如何开始呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

So we're going to talk about those examples.

所以我们将讨论这些例子。

One of the structures that I liked that I wrote down is called prep, which is make your point, give a reason for making that point, give an example.

我喜欢写下来的结构之一称为准备，它是表达你的观点，给出表达该观点的理由，给出一个例子。

And then what's the last one point again?

那么最后一点又是什么呢？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, restate your point.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，重申一下你的观点。

Review it.

回顾一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Restate your point.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：重申你的观点。

That feels like something that say in product teams can come up a lot is just like, here's what I think, here's why.

感觉就像在产品团队中经常出现的那样，这就是我的想法，这就是原因。

Here's an example and then let me just remind you again what the point I'm making.

这是一个例子，然后让我再次提醒您我的观点是什么。

Matt Abrahams: That's right.

马特·亚伯拉罕：没错。

Yes.

是的。

I love prep and the structure I really like is a three-question structure: What?

我喜欢准备，我真正喜欢的结构是三个问题的结构：什么？

So what?

所以呢？

Now what?

现在怎么办？

And people on product teams I think could benefit so much from this.

我认为产品团队的人们可以从中受益匪浅。

What is your product, your service, your offering, your update, your feedback?

你的产品、你的服务、你的产品、你的更新、你的反馈是什么？

It's the what of why you're speaking.

这就是你说话的原因。

The so what is why is this important and relevant to the people you're talking to or to your company or to prospective clients?

那么，为什么这对您正在交谈的人、您的公司或潜在客户如此重要且相关呢？

And then the now what is what comes next.

然后现在就是接下来发生的事情。

So on a product team, if you're describing a feature, here's what the feature is, here's why it's important, and here's what we're doing about it.

因此，在产品团队中，如果您要描述某个功能，请说明该功能是什么，这就是它的重要性，以及我们正在采取的措施。

If you're giving an update in an update meeting, a standup that you're having, here's what I'm working on, here's why it's important, here's what I'm doing next.

如果您要在更新会议或站立会议中提供更新，这就是我正在做的事情，这就是为什么它很重要，这就是我接下来要做的事情。

Matt Abrahams: By packaging the information up in what, so what, now what, it becomes much more digestible, much more memorable.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：通过将信息打包成“什么”、“那么什么”、“现在什么”，它会变得更容易理解、更令人难忘。

Just like prep.

就像准备一样。

Prep works really well for a point you're making.

对于你要表达的观点来说，准备工作非常有效。

What, so what, now what works really well for a broader presentation, update, feedback session that you're giving.

什么，那又怎样，现在什么对于您所提供的更广泛的演示、更新、反馈会议来说真正有效。

So having a whole series of these tools in your toolkit can really make a difference.

因此，在您的工具包中拥有一整套这些工具确实可以发挥作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: So we've talked about three structures so far.

Lenny Rachitsky：到目前为止我们已经讨论了三种结构。

What, so what, now what; prep, which is make the point, give a reason example, and then restate the point; and then problem, solution benefit.

什么，那又怎样，现在怎样；准备，即提出要点，给出原因示例，然后重述要点；然后是问题、解决方案的好处。

So people listening to this it's like, "Oh, amazing, all these structures are great." Do you have any advice on how to remember these?

所以人们听到这个就像，“哦，太棒了，所有这些结构都很棒。”您对如何记住这些有什么建议吗？

You're like, "Oh, Matt, what do you think of this design?" Like, "Oh, shit, which one should I go with?"

你会说，“哦，马特，你觉得这个设计怎么样？”就像，“哦，该死，我应该选择哪一个？”

Matt Abrahams: I try to give each structure a catchy name.

Matt Abrahams：我尝试给每个结构起一个朗朗上口的名字。

What, so what, now what rolls off the tongue.

什么，那又怎样，现在从舌头上滚出来的是什么。

There's a structure in the book for giving feedback called 4Is for Apologizing AAA.

书中有一个提供反馈的结构，称为“道歉 AAA 的 4Is”。

So part of it is just coming up with a mnemonic that works for you and you can name them whatever you want, but really the way to get familiar with them and to have them at the ready is to use them.

因此，其中一部分就是想出一个适合您的助记符，您可以将它们命名为您想要的任何名称，但真正熟悉它们并准备好它们的方法是使用它们。

Matt Abrahams: When I coach people on what, so what, now what, I encourage them at the end of a podcast they listen to or something they read, take a moment and say, "What was it about?

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当我指导人们做什么、那又怎样、现在怎样时，我会在他们听的播客或读到的东西结束时鼓励他们，花点时间说，“它是关于什么的？

Why is it important to me and what can I do with that information?" And if you do that, not only do you get better and more comfortable deploying that structure, but you also remember the material better because there's a whole bunch of research that says when we interrogate the material that we listen to or read, we digest it and remember it more.

为什么它对我很重要？我可以用这些信息做什么？”如果你这样做，你不仅可以更好、更舒适地部署该结构，而且你还可以更好地记住这些材料，因为有大量研究表明，当我们询问所听或读的材料时，我们会消化它并记住更多。

So in 30 seconds you're really helping yourself at least in two ways by getting the structure down and remembering more.

因此，在 30 秒内，您至少可以通过两种方式真正帮助自己：理清结构并记住更多内容。

So you have to put it into practice.

所以你必须把它付诸实践。

Matt Abrahams: The other way to do it in which we do a lot in my classroom is we have people dissect communication.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我们在课堂上经常做的另一种方法是让人们剖析沟通。

So you listen to somebody or you see it and you say, what structure did they use?

所以当你听某人说话或看到它时，你会说，他们使用了什么结构？

So it's about awareness building and then actually getting the reps.

所以这是关于建立意识，然后真正获得代表。

The only way you get better at communication, spontaneous or planned, is the way you get better at anything.

无论是自发的还是计划好的沟通，你变得更好的唯一方法就是你在任何事情上都变得更好。

Repetition, reflection, and feedback.

重复、反思和反馈。

You got to practice, you got to think about what worked or what didn't, and then you have to get feedback from others.

你必须练习，你必须思考什么有效，什么无效，然后你必须从别人那里得到反馈。

We are not always the best judges of our communication.

我们并不总是我们沟通的最佳评判者。

And in so doing, repetition, reflection and feedback takes your communication to the next level.

这样，重复、反思和反馈就能将您的沟通提升到一个新的水平。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a lot of work, Matt.

Lenny Rachitsky：工作量很大，马特。

That's a lot of work.

这是很多工作。

Matt Abrahams: It is work.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：这是工作。

There is no shortcut.

没有捷径。

Matt Abrahams: But that's true with most things in life that are really important.

马特·亚伯拉罕：但对于生活中大多数真正重要的事情来说都是如此。

There's no shortcut.

没有捷径。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

As people are thinking about this and listening to this, there's your course, obviously that you teach at Stanford and only Stanford students can take that.

当人们思考这个并聆听这个时，就有了你的课程，显然你在斯坦福大学任教，只有斯坦福大学的学生才能学习。

There's your book obviously.

显然有你的书。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

If there's nothing, that's totally fine, that you point people to to actually practice these outside of the workplace?

如果没有什么，那完全没问题，你可以让人们在工作场所之外实际练习这些？

Are there courses that anyone can take that you recommend?

您有推荐的任何人都可以参加的课程吗？

Anything else you can point people to?

您还可以向人们指出其他什么吗？

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当然。

There are a lot of resources out there.

那里有很多资源。

One, I'm a huge proponent and a former member of Toastmasters.

第一，我是 Toastmasters 的大力支持者和前成员。

I think Toastmasters is a wonderful organization designed primarily to give you the reps.

我认为 Toastmasters 是一个很棒的组织，其主要目的是为您提供代表。

They do some teaching, but it's really to give you the reps.

他们会做一些教学，但实际上是为了给你代表。

So I highly recommend Toastmasters.

所以我强烈推荐 Toastmasters。

Matt Abrahams: Improvisation is another way to get comfortable with these skills.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：即兴创作是熟悉这些技能的另一种方式。

When people hear improv, they think, "Oh, I got to be funny and it's about performing," and it's not.

当人们听到即兴表演时，他们会想，“哦，我必须变得有趣，这就是表演，”但事实并非如此。

Improv is really just about being more comfortable, being present, and really focusing on collaborating with others.

即兴表演实际上就是让自己更舒服、活在当下、真正专注于与他人合作。

Matt Abrahams: And then there are courses.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：然后还有课程。

You mentioned obviously that people have to be MBA students to take my MBA class, but Stanford and other institutions have continuing studies classes or extension classes that are open to the community.

您显然提到，人们必须是 MBA 学生才能参加我的 MBA 课程，但斯坦福大学和其他机构有向社区开放的继续学习课程或扩展课程。

So I, every quarter teach a class that's open to anybody who registers all over the world.

因此，我每个季度都会开设一门课程，该课程向世界各地注册的任何人开放。

It's virtual.

这是虚拟的。

I have students this very quarter who take a class on a Monday night Pacific Time, 7:00 PM.

本季度我有一些学生在太平洋时间周一晚上 7:00 上课。

I've got somebody in Egypt, I have somebody in China.

我在埃及有人，我在中国有人。

So there are ways to take advantage of things happening at universities without being an enrolled student.

因此，即使不是在校学生，也有一些方法可以利用大学里发生的事情。

So I would point people to all of those.

所以我会向人们指出所有这些。

And then clearly listening to podcasts, reading books, checking out blogs and videos can be really helpful.

然后清楚地听播客、读书、查看博客和视频真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think to your point, it's like you can read about this and listen to podcasts all you want, but you're not going to actually get that much better.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为就你的观点而言，就像你可以随心所欲地阅读此内容并收听播客，但你实际上不会变得更好。

And with your course, I imagine there's practice you're doing as a part of the course.

在你的课程中，我想你正在做练习作为课程的一部分。

Matt Abrahams: Everything is applied.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：一切都适用。

The only way to get better at communication is to do communication, to watch communication.

更好地沟通的唯一方法就是进行沟通、观察沟通。

And that's why in the books I write, I have this, try this.

这就是为什么在我写的书中，我有这个，尝试这个。

It's literally put the book down, go do this and then come back because that's how you learn communication.

这实际上就是放下书，去做然后再回来，因为这就是你学习沟通的方式。

And so yes, any avenue to help you get the reps is going to be helpful.

所以，是的，任何帮助你获得代表的途径都会有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll be honest, I did none of the try this.

Lenny Rachitsky：说实话，我没有尝试过这个。

I'm just like, that's too much work.

我只是想，这工作量太大了。

So I think that's why it's important to take something where you have to do it because it's too easy just like, yeah, yeah.

所以我认为这就是为什么在必须做的地方做某事很重要，因为它太容易了，就像，是的，是的。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

You're not the first person to say that they don't take the time to do that.

你不是第一个说他们没有花时间这样做的人。

There are others who say they really appreciate that.

还有其他人说他们真的很感激这一点。

And for people such as yourself, at the very end of my book, I have a QR code that takes you to a bunch of videos.

对于像您这样的人，在我书的最后，我有一个二维码，可以带您观看一堆视频。

So if you don't want to do it yourself, you can actually watch people do it or watch me do it.

所以如果你不想自己做，你实际上可以看别人做或者看我做。

And so that's at least better than not doing any of it.

所以这至少比什么都不做要好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I'll also give a shout-out to Toastmasters.

我还要为 Toastmasters 点赞。

I did Toastmasters for a while and two things there.

我参加过一段时间的 Toastmasters，并在那里做了两件事。

One is there's a special focus on the spot speaking that's a part of the sequence.

一是特别关注现场演讲，这是该序列的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Table topics, yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky：桌面主题，是的。

And that's like a 60-second, someone gets up and just has to talk on something.

这就像 60 秒，有人站起来就必须谈论一些事情。

So it's a big part of that method.

所以这是该方法的重要组成部分。

Also, I did it for a long time and all I did was I was the counter or the timer.

而且，我做了很长时间，我所做的只是计数器或计时器。

You can do it without having to give any talks for as long as you want.

只要您愿意，您无需进行任何演讲就可以做到这一点。

And it's very cheap and they're everywhere.

而且非常便宜而且到处都有。

There's a local chapter wherever you are.

无论您身在何处，都有当地分会。

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：当然。

And many companies sponsor their own Toastmasters groups, so that's great.

许多公司都赞助自己的 Toastmasters 团体，这很好。

And they are very good at easing people into it.

他们非常善于让人们融入其中。

You're not forced to do anything.

你没有被迫做任何事情。

And the same is with improv.

即兴表演也是如此。

A good improv teacher never forces anybody to do anything.

一个好的即兴老师从不强迫任何人做任何事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We went way off-topic, but let's get back to the agenda at hand, which is let's talk about specific situations and advice you have for getting better at these.

我们偏离了主题，但让我们回到手头的议程，即让我们讨论具体情况以及您在这些方面做得更好的建议。

So maybe we start with small talk and there's one that I love and I find so important and so subtle, which is have comparable levels of disclosure.

所以也许我们从闲聊开始，有一个我喜欢的闲聊，我发现它非常重要，而且非常微妙，它具有相当程度的披露。

And the question basically is how do we get better at small talk?

问题基本上是我们如何更好地闲聊？

And here's one technique.

这是一种技术。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so let me get to that point in a second because that's a more refined point than some general principles.

马特·亚伯拉罕（Matt Abrahams）：是的，让我稍后谈谈这一点，因为这是一个比一些一般原则更精确的观点。

When it comes to small talk, many people dread small talk, they feel really awkward about it.

说到闲聊，很多人都害怕闲聊，觉得很尴尬。

I think small talk has a bad reputation, needs to be rebranded.

我认为闲聊的名声不好，需要重新命名。

I think a lot of big things happen in small talk.

我认为很多大事都是在闲聊中发生的。

We learn about ourselves and others.

我们了解自己和他人。

We form and foster relationships.

我们建立并培养关系。

I challenge everybody listening to think about some of their friends, our closest friends.

我要求每个倾听的人想想他们的一些朋友，我们最亲密的朋友。

How did you meet them?

你是怎么认识他们的？

Probably some component of small talk played a role, especially early in those relationships.

也许闲聊的某些部分发挥了作用，尤其是在这些关系的早期。

So it does good things for us.

所以它对我们有好处。

Matt Abrahams: The best advice I have ever heard for small talk came from a guest on my podcast.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我听过的关于闲聊的最佳建议来自我播客上的一位嘉宾。

Her name's Rachel Greenwald.

她的名字叫雷切尔·格林沃尔德。

She's an interesting person.

她是一个有趣的人。

She's an academic and a matchmaker, really fascinating.

她既是学者又是媒人，真是令人着迷。

And her advice was this: Be interested, not interesting.

她的建议是：感兴趣，而不是有趣。

Many of us go into small talk thinking we have to be super interesting.

我们中的许多人在闲聊时都认为我们必须非常有趣。

We have to spike the ball over the net every time.

我们每次都必须把球扣过网。

When in fact small talk is more like playing the game of Hacky Sack, where it's simply just set the other person up to be successful and get the ball back to you.

事实上，闲聊更像是玩 Hacky Sack 游戏，只是让对方成功并将球传回给你。

So if we go in with that mindset, it makes it easier.

因此，如果我们抱着这种心态，事情就会变得更容易。

Matt Abrahams: Now there's some rules that we can follow.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：现在我们可以遵循一些规则。

One rule is the one that you shared that in small talk there should be a balance of disclosure or depth of disclosure over time.

您分享的一条规则是，在闲聊中，随着时间的推移，应该在披露或披露深度上保持平衡。

So if you're telling me about the first time your first pet died, and I'm telling you my favorite color is blue, there's a discrepancy in disclosure there.

因此，如果您告诉我您的第一只宠物第一次死亡的情况，而我告诉您我最喜欢的颜色是蓝色，那么这里的披露就会存在差异。

Clearly you've revealed a lot more than I have.

显然你透露的比我多得多。

And we have this notion of reciprocity that if you share something that is appropriate but is more disclosive, that I should at some point match that level or come close.

我们有这种互惠的概念，如果你分享一些适当但更具披露性的东西，我应该在某个时候达到这个水平或接近这个水平。

And if we don't, then it feels very awkward and we feel like we're not jiving in that way.

如果我们不这样做，就会感觉非常尴尬，我们感觉自己没有那样摇摆。

Matt Abrahams: I don't want everybody sitting with a little card that they're checking off, but having that general notion in mind can help.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我不希望每个人都拿着一张正在核对的小卡片，但记住这个总体概念会有所帮助。

And the trick here is not to be too disclosive too quickly.

这里的技巧是不要太快透露太多。

So if we start small talk and we're talking about the I meeting that we're at, and you immediately jump into the fight you had with your significant other that might lead to divorce, that's a deep and big step that might feel a little inappropriate.

因此，如果我们开始闲聊，谈论我们正在参加的会议，而你立即陷入与另一半的争吵中，这可能会导致离婚，这是一个深刻而重大的一步，可能会让人觉得有点不合适。

But over time, if we continue to disclose, it might be perfectly natural for you to share that.

但随着时间的推移，如果我们继续披露，您分享这一点可能是非常自然的。

So there's sort of expectations and we just have to be mindful of those.

所以存在某种期望，我们只需要注意这些。

Matt Abrahams: Another thing we need to be mindful of that I think is really important is this distinction between shifting and supporting responses.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我认为我们需要注意的另一件事非常重要，那就是转移反应和支持反应之间的区别。

In a conversation, I can be supportive.

在谈话中，我可以提供支持。

That is, you might say, "Hey Matt, I just got back from Costa Rica." I could say, "Oh great, did you spend time in San Jose?

也就是说，您可能会说，“嘿马特，我刚从哥斯达黎加回来。”我可以说，“哦，太棒了，你在圣何塞呆过吗？

Did you get to any of the beaches?" Those are supporting responses.

你去过海滩吗？”这些都是支持性的回应。

I'm asking you to keep telling me more.

我请你继续告诉我更多。

A shifting response would be like, "Oh, you went to Costa Rica.

一个不断变化的回答会是这样的，“哦，你去了哥斯达黎加。

I went to Hawaii." And the goal in a good conversation is to have more supporting responses than shifting, but to have some shifting responses.

我去了夏威夷。”良好对话的目标是获得更多支持性回应，而不是转移性回应，但要有一些转移性回应。

Because if all I do is continually support you, it looks like I don't want to share.

因为如果我所做的一切只是不断地支持你，那么看起来我就不想分享了。

I'm not being disclosive at all.

我根本不是在透露。

So there are these subtle things that we can be aware of to help the conversation go and to breed that intimacy and immediacy that we feel, but it takes a congruence, a balancing of doing that.

因此，我们可以意识到这些微妙的事情，以帮助谈话顺利进行，并培养我们感受到的亲密感和直接感，但这需要一致性和平衡。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。

I feel like everyone needs this class to just like, how do I talk to people?

我觉得每个人都需要这门课来了解我如何与人交谈？

What's the right way to talk?

什么是正确的谈话方式？

Matt Abrahams: Well, right.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：嗯，对。

The point that you're bringing up there, Lenny, is we're never taught this stuff and yet we have to do it all the time.

莱尼，你提到的一点是，我们从未被教导过这些东西，但我们必须一直这样做。

And that's why focusing on it I think really matters.

这就是为什么我认为专注于它真的很重要。

And it can really, as you said, superpower, it can be a superpower because so many people don't do this or spend the time getting better at it.

正如你所说，它确实可以成为超级大国，它可以成为超级大国，因为很多人不这样做或花时间做得更好。

We all operate under this notion of...

我们都在这个理念下运作......

the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

疯狂的定义是一遍又一遍地做同样的事情，却期待不同的结果。

And that's not good for small talk and other communication situations.

这不利于闲聊和其他交流场合。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this balance you just shared of...

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你刚才分享的这种平衡......

So the primary piece of advice for small talk is be interested, not interesting, ask person questions, get excited about what they're telling you.

因此，闲聊的主要建议是感兴趣，而不是有趣，问别人问题，对他们告诉你的事情感到兴奋。

There's a classic book, How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is very much about this.

有一本经典的书，《如何赢得朋友并影响别人》，对此有很多内容。

Highly recommend it.

强烈推荐它。

It's like very old school now, but there's so much good advice there.

现在就像非常古老的学校一样，但那里有很多好的建议。

There's no better sound to someone's ears than their name.

对于一个人来说，没有比他们的名字更好的声音了。

So just saying their name, they're like, "Yeah, I love that." And then just smiling.

所以只要说出他们的名字，他们就会说：“是的，我喜欢这个。”然后只是微笑。

There's all these very simple things that that book shares.

那本书分享了所有这些非常简单的事情。

It sounds like you recommend and you're fan of that book, and it's something you've read, right?

听起来你推荐了那本书，而且你是那本书的粉丝，而且你也读过这本书，对吧？

Matt Abrahams: I know the book.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我知道这本书。

Some of that stuff has been true for a long time.

其中一些事情长期以来都是正确的。

Some of the stuff.

一些东西。

I'm not a big fan of ingratiation and manipulation.

我不太喜欢奉承和操纵。

I like authenticity and some of the advice in books like that can sound like smile, nod your head.

我喜欢真实性，而书中的一些建议听起来就像微笑、点头。

And all of that can sound a little manipulative and inauthentic, but I think some of those principles are important.

所有这些听起来可能有点操纵性和不真实，但我认为其中一些原则很重要。

And if you can in an authentic, true, appropriate way, leverage some of that, I think it would help you.

如果你能以一种真实、真实、适当的方式利用其中的一些，我认为这会对你有所帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, somebody once shared a story with their kid...

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，有人曾经和他们的孩子分享过一个故事......

Then they're 13.

那么他们就13岁了。

They read that book and it just effed them up for a while because they just started putting these into practice way too young.

他们读了那本书，这让他们感到沮丧一段时间，因为他们太年轻了才开始将这些付诸实践。

Matt Abrahams: Well, one thing...

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：嗯，有一件事......

I mean, all of a sudden you're focusing on...

我的意思是，突然间你的注意力集中在...

You can get so wrapped up in doing these things that you're actually not connecting.

你可能会过于专注于做这些事情，而实际上并没有建立联系。

It's like people who travel on a vacation and all they do is take pictures of where they are instead of experiencing where they are.

这就像人们在度假时所做的只是拍摄他们所在的地方，而不是体验他们所在的地方。

And that's not where we want to be with this advice.

这并不是我们想要提出的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: But I love this other component of...

Lenny Rachitsky：但我喜欢...的另一个组成部分

Because a lot of people hear this advice, ask questions, be interested, be excited, this version of it, but you need to have somewhat equal levels of disclosure is really important.

因为很多人听到这个建议，提出问题，感兴趣，感到兴奋，这个版本，但你需要有一定程度的披露是非常重要的。

Because I fall into this sometimes where like, "I don't care about myself.

因为我有时会陷入这样的境地，“我不关心自己。

I just want to ask you questions.

我只是想问你问题。

And this is going great, I'm just going to keep asking." And if you're not sharing anything by yourself, it gets really strange.

这一切进展顺利，我会继续问下去。”如果你自己不分享任何东西，那就真的很奇怪了。

Even when they ask you, you're like, "No, no, let's keep talking about you." You think they want that, but they don't.

即使他们问你，你也会说：“不，不，让我们继续谈论你。”你认为他们想要那样，但他们不想要。

They actually want to hear about you.

他们实际上想听听关于你的事情。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，绝对是。

And you do such a lovely job as a podcast...

作为播客，你做得非常出色......

I mean, so podcast host is a great job for you if you like asking questions, but I bet you have found, because I have found this for me as being a host of Think Fast, Talk Smart is that sharing a little bit about your own experience actually makes the conversations go better.

我的意思是，如果你喜欢提问，那么播客主持人对你来说是一份很棒的工作，但我打赌你已经发现了，因为我作为《快速思考，聪明交谈》的主持人，发现分享一点你自己的经历实际上会让对话进行得更好。

And so I think that's a lesson for all of us, and you don't have to have your own podcast to learn that lesson.

所以我认为这对我们所有人来说都是一个教训，你不必拥有自己的播客来学习这一教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I read this book on podcasting interviewing when I first started, and one of the big piece of advice is if you share more about yourself, you'll hear more stories that they can share.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我刚开始时读过这本关于播客采访的书，其中一个重要的建议是，如果你分享更多关于自己的信息，你会听到更多他们可以分享的故事。

They're more vulnerable.

他们更脆弱。

Not that I think about that, but that's in my head sometimes.

我并不是这么想的，但有时我的脑海里也会有这样的想法。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

Well, you do a good job of it, even if it's just intuitive.

好吧，你做得很好，即使只是凭直觉。

Appreciate it.: Let's talk about another version of on-the-spot talking, which is giving feedback.

赞赏：我们来谈谈现场谈话的另一种形式，即给予反馈。

Oftentimes people listening to this podcast, they're asked, what do you think of this design?

听这个播客的人们经常会被问到，你觉得这个设计怎么样？

What do you think of this roadmap?

您觉得这个路线图怎么样？

What do you think of the strategy?

您认为该策略如何？

What are some tips for getting better at on-the-spot feedback?

有哪些技巧可以帮助您更好地进行现场反馈？

Matt Abrahams: First and foremost, we need to look at and define feedback.

Matt Abrahams：首先也是最重要的，我们需要查看并定义反馈。

Feedback to me is an opportunity to problem solve.

反馈对我来说是解决问题的机会。

Certainly there are some behaviors that we absolutely have to shut down.

当然，有些行为是我们绝对必须禁止的。

It's inappropriate, it's inexcusable, we have to shut it down.

这是不合适的，这是不可原谅的，我们必须将其关闭。

But often feedback is really an opportunity to problem solve.

但反馈往往确实是解决问题的机会。

And if you take it as an opportunity to problem solve, then what you're looking for is collaboration with the other person, which means that we have to invite them to join us as we do this.

如果您将其视为解决问题的机会，那么您正在寻找的是与其他人的合作，这意味着我们必须邀请他们加入我们这样做。

So it's not me bestowing upon you my opinion, it's me inviting you to together work on whatever this issue challenge is that we have.

因此，这不是我向您提供我的意见，而是我邀请您共同努力解决我们面临的任何问题挑战。

And I am a huge disciple of Kim Scott, Radical Candor.

我是激进坦率的金·斯科特 (Kim Scott) 的忠实弟子。

I really like her approach to it.

我真的很喜欢她的处理方式。

Kim's a friend.

金是朋友。

She's actually a neighbor.

她其实是邻居。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, she's been on the podcast, by the way.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，顺便说一句，她一直在播客上。

Matt Abrahams: Oh, great.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：哦，太棒了。

So you know Kim and your listeners know Kim.

所以你了解 Kim，你的听众也了解 Kim。

Yeah, she's great.

是的，她很棒。

Where I think I can add a little value to what Kim talks about, and she does talk about structure, but I think having the structure to package up the information to make it easier to digest by your audience, the person or people you're talking to, but also to formulate your thoughts can help.

我认为我可以为 Kim 谈论的内容增加一点价值，她确实谈论了结构，但我认为拥有将信息打包的结构，以便您的听众、与您交谈的人更容易消化，而且也可以帮助阐明您的想法。

And we've already talked about one mechanism, one structure for feedback.

我们已经讨论了一种机制、一种反馈结构。

It's what, so what, now what?

就是这样，那又怎样，现在怎么办？

Matt Abrahams: So imagine, Lenny, you and I come out of a meeting and you say, "Hey, Matt, how'd that go?" I could say, "I thought the meeting went really well, Lenny, except when you talked about the implementation plan.

马特·亚伯拉罕：想象一下，莱尼，你和我开完会后说：“嘿，马特，进展如何？”我可以说，“我认为会议进行得很顺利，莱尼，除了你谈到实施计划的时候。

You spoke a little quicker than you did with the other parts and you didn't go into the same level of detail." That's my what.

你说得比其他部分快一点，而且没有讲到同样程度的细节。”这就是我的意思。

"When you speak quickly without a lot of detail, people might think you're not as prepared or you're really concerned about this part." That's the so what.

“当你说话很快而没有太多细节时，人们可能会认为你没有做好准备，或者你真的很关心这部分。”那又怎样。

"Next time I suggest you slow down and you include these two or three bits of data so that people see you really are knowledgeable on this area." So that's the now what.

“下次我建议你放慢速度，包括这两到三个数据，这样人们就会看到你在这个领域真的很渊博。”这就是现在的情况。

Matt Abrahams: So that what, so what, now what helps me very quickly structure information and package it in a way that helps me as the giver of the feedback, think through what are the things I need to say?

马特·亚伯拉罕：那么，那又怎样，现在什么可以帮助我非常快速地构建信息并将其打包，以帮助我作为反馈的提供者，思考我需要说的事情是什么？

I need to think through what's bothering me, what the consequences are of that behavior, and then what I think you should do.

我需要思考什么在困扰我，这种行为的后果是什么，然后我认为你应该做什么。

Matt Abrahams: There's a more robust structure I talk about in the book called The 4 Is, and each I stands for something starting with the letter I.

Matt Abrahams：我在《The 4 Is》一书中谈到了一个更强大的结构，每个 I 都代表以字母 I 开头的东西。

But four eyes also like glasses.

但四只眼睛也像眼镜一样。

It helps you see more clearly.

它可以帮助您看得更清楚。

So in the 4 I structure, the first I is information.

所以在4个I结构中，第一个I是信息。

You're just setting the playing field so the person knows what you're giving the feedback about.

您只是设置了一个竞争环境，以便人们知道您提供的反馈内容。

The second is impact, and this is impact on you, the feedback giver.

第二个是影响力，这是对你这个反馈者的影响力。

The third is the invitation that you make, and then the final is the implications or consequences.

第三个是你发出的邀请，最后一个是影响或后果。

Matt Abrahams: So imagine I have an employee who doesn't show up to the meetings on time and prepared.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：想象一下，我有一名员工没有按时参加会议并没有做好准备。

I might say, "This is the third time that you have showed up late to this meeting.

我可能会说：“这是你第三次在会议上迟到了。

I feel you're not prioritizing this meeting the same way others of us are.

我觉得你并没有像我们其他人那样优先考虑这次会议。

What can we do to help make sure you show up prepared for the next meeting?

我们可以做些什么来帮助确保您为下次会议做好准备？

Because if you do, we're going to finish the project on time and get a new cool project." So information, impact, invitation, and implications.

因为如果你这样做，我们将按时完成该项目并获得一个新的很酷的项目。”所以信息、影响、邀请和影响。

Now, certainly I can vary the tone and the directness of some of those responses so it sounds very differently, but thinking through it in my mind, I have to level set what we're talking about.

现在，我当然可以改变其中一些回应的语气和直接性，因此听起来非常不同，但在我的脑海中仔细思考，我必须对我们正在谈论的内容进行水平设定。

I have to share why it's important to me at least, make the invitation, and talk about the benefits or consequences.

我必须分享为什么它至少对我很重要，发出邀请，并谈论好处或后果。

Makes a lot of sense.

很有道理。

So there are lots of structures and lots of ways to communicate, especially in feedback.

因此，沟通的结构和方式有很多，尤其是反馈方面。

Find one or two that work for you so when you're put on the spot, you can default to it.

找到一两个适合你的，这样当你陷入困境时，你可以默认使用它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe a big takeaway here is pick one of these structures that you want to use when somebody asks you for feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许这里的一个重要收获是，当有人向你寻求反馈时，选择你想要使用的结构之一。

And the two you shared are what?

你分享的这两个是什么？

So what?

那又怎么样？

Now what?

现在怎么办？

Or these four Is.

或者这四个是。

Give information, show the impact that it had on you, invitation and then implications.

提供信息，表明它对您的影响、邀请以及影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Let's talk about another category, which is not a work category, but I suck at toasts and I am always trying to get better at this.

让我们谈谈另一个类别，它不是工作类别，但我很不擅长祝酒，而且我一直在努力在这方面做得更好。

And you have a bunch of awesome advice for how to give better toasts.

你对如何做出更好的祝酒有很多很棒的建议。

Can you share some stuff?

你能分享一些东西吗？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

We have all been victimized by bad toasts.

我们都曾是糟糕的祝酒词的受害者。

The toast that goes on too long, the toast that's more about the person giving the toast than the event or the person.

祝酒时间太长，更多的是关于祝酒的人而不是事件或人。

And when I say toast, I don't just mean at weddings, bar mitzvahs, quinceaneras.

当我说敬酒时，我不仅仅指在婚礼、成人礼、成人礼上。

We give tributes at work all the time.

我们在工作中一直在致敬。

Congratulations to the team or somebody's anniversary or somebody's retirement.

祝贺团队或某人的周年纪念日或某人的退休。

So we give toasts and tributes all the time.

所以我们总是举杯致敬。

In fact, I heard a statistic once that it is the most frequent public speaking event across people is giving toasts and tributes.

事实上，我曾经听过一个统计，人们最频繁的公开演讲活动是敬酒和致敬。

So we should learn how to do these well.

所以我们应该学习如何做好这些。

Matt Abrahams: So I have an acronym.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：所以我有一个缩写词。

It works.

它有效。

It's called WHAT.

这就是所谓的“什么”。

W-H-A-T.

W-H-A-T。

The W stands for why are we here?

W代表我们为什么在这里？

Now, if I'm at a wedding, I don't have to tell the audience why we're here.

现在，如果我参加婚礼，我不必告诉观众我们为什么来这里。

We get it.

我们明白了。

But if we're doing an all hands and I'm called up to speak, it might be in my best interest to share with everybody, I'm here to celebrate the release of this product that that team put out.

但是，如果我们要进行全体会议，并且我被要求发言，那么与大家分享可能符合我的最大利益，我来这里是为了庆祝该团队推出的该产品的发布。

So you might have to say, why are we here?

所以你可能要说，我们为什么在这里？

Matt Abrahams: The H is how are you connected to the event?

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：H 是您与该活动有何联系？

So if I'm at a wedding, people might not know who I am.

所以如果我参加婚礼，人们可能不知道我是谁。

I could say, "Hey, I've known the groom for 25 years." And people are like, "Oh, okay.

我可以说，“嘿，我认识新郎 25 年了。”人们会说：“哦，好吧。

Now that makes sense." If you're giving a tribute at work, you don't have to say, "And I'm the boss." Everybody knows your position.

现在这是有道理的。”如果你在工作中表达敬意，你不必说，“我是老板。”每个人都知道你的立场。

So again, these are choices you make.

再说一次，这些都是你做出的选择。

So why are we here?

那我们为什么在这里？

How are you connected?

你们是如何连接的？

Matt Abrahams: The A stands for anecdote.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：A 代表轶事。

Tell a story or a quick example that is relevant and accessible to everybody.

讲述一个与每个人相关且易于理解的故事或简单示例。

There's no insider knowledge and keep it concise.

没有内幕知识并保持简洁。

Matt Abrahams: And then ultimately the last part is the gratitude, the thank you.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：最后一部分是感激之情，谢谢。

So express gratitude, express some kind of thanks.

所以表达感激之情，表达某种感谢。

In a toast at a celebratory event, you might say cheers or whatever's appropriate for the culture you come from to signal closure.

在庆祝活动的祝酒词中，您可能会说“干杯”或任何适合您所在文化的内容来表示结束。

But again, why are we here?

但话又说回来，我们为什么在这里？

How are you connected?

你们是如何连接的？

Anecdote or two, and then the gratitude or thanking at the end.

一两件轶事，最后是感激或感谢。

And if you follow that structure, it can navigate, just like a GPS, your way through the toast.

如果你遵循这个结构，它就可以像 GPS 一样导航你的面包。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such an easy structure to remember.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很容易记住的结构。

There's so much of it that I love.

其中有很多我喜欢的。

What I want to understand is where do you put the actual content of the tribute and the toast?

我想了解的是，致敬和祝酒的实际内容放在哪里？

Is it the anecdote expands into, "Here's what I want to say?" Like there's an example or story and then it's like-

这则轶事是否会扩展为“这就是我想说的？”就像有一个例子或故事然后就像-

Matt Abrahams: Exactly.

马特·亚伯拉罕：没错。

So it is typically part of that.

所以它通常是其中的一部分。

You might do it as part of the why we're all here.

你可能会这样做，作为我们在这里的原因的一部分。

"We're here to really celebrate the Herculean effort of this particular team to get this product launched.

“我们来这里是为了真正庆祝这个特定团队为推出该产品所付出的巨大努力。

I'm so honored to have supported it.

我很荣幸能够支持它。

I'm the manager of the team.

我是球队的经理。

Here's a story about how Lenny worked overtime to get this done.

这是一个关于莱尼如何加班完成这件事的故事。

Let's raise our glasses and give them a salute." So yes, you could do it in the why are we here or through the anecdotes.

让我们举起酒杯，向他们致敬。”所以，是的，你可以通过我们为什么在这里或通过轶事来做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And then one of your other piece of advice, which connects to what you just said is be brief.

然后你的另一条建议与你刚才所说的相关，那就是简短。

Matt Abrahams: Yes, yes.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，是的。

So nobody has ever complained about a toast that's too brief.

所以没有人抱怨过祝酒时间太短。

I'm sure it's possible, but the majority of complaints are the toast went on forever.

我确信这是可能的，但大多数抱怨都是祝酒永远持续下去。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you find that it would ever make sense to give a couple anecdotes or make a couple points in a toast?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为在祝酒词中讲一些轶事或提出几点观点有意义吗？

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and it depends.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：是的，这取决于情况。

Toasts are opportunities for teaching and learning as well, especially in a work environment.

祝酒也是教学和学习的机会，尤其是在工作环境中。

So it might make sense to tell a couple anecdotes.

因此，讲一些轶事可能是有意义的。

I'm a huge fan...

我是一个超级粉丝......

I mean, your listeners know, you know minimally viable product design, agile development, really critical.

我的意思是，你的听众知道，你知道最低限度可行的产品设计、敏捷开发，非常关键。

What is it about?

这是关于什么的？

It's about understanding your audience, your users, and it's about rapidly prototyping and iterating.

这是关于了解您的受众、您的用户，并且是关于快速原型设计和迭代。

I believe in minimally viable communication, trademark pending, where it's the same principles.

我相信最低限度可行的沟通，商标待决，其原则相同。

Know your audience, put together a rough draft of what you want to say, test it out.

了解你的听众，整理出你想说的内容的草稿，然后进行测试。

So if you're going to give a big toast in front of a company all hands, run it by a few people and say, "Is it too many anecdotes?

因此，如果你要在公司全体人员面前举杯，请由几个人来主持，并说：“是不是轶事太多了？

Would it benefit from having another story?" Get people's feedback.

如果再讲一个故事会对它有好处吗？”获取人们的反馈。

We are not the best judges of our communication.

我们并不是我们沟通的最佳评判者。

So the answer is yes, but test it out.

所以答案是肯定的，但请测试一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another element of a great toast that you recommend is to be emotional.

Lenny Rachitsky：您推荐的祝酒词的另一个要素是情感。

Can you touch on that?

你能谈谈吗？

Matt Abrahams: Well, so emotion connects with people, and as long as it's genuine and authentic, it's really important.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：嗯，所以情感与人联系在一起，只要它是真诚的，它就非常重要。

I've been thinking a lot about emotion and communication.

我一直在思考很多关于情感和沟通的问题。

My father recently passed away and everybody in my family said, "Well, Matt's going to do the eulogy." It was like, I had no choice.

我父亲最近去世了，家里的每个人都说：“好吧，马特会致悼词。”就像，我别无选择。

What do I do?

我该怎么办？

I'm the guy who teaches communication.

我是教授沟通的人。

So I felt added pressure not only to honor my father's life, but everybody's like, "This is the way you do a eulogy." And so I wanted to do some research on what's all the advice out there on eulogies, and there wasn't a lot.

所以我感到了更大的压力，不仅要纪念我父亲的生命，而且每个人都说，“这就是悼词的方式。”所以我想对悼词的所有建议进行一些研究，但数量并不多。

So I actually wrote an article on my experience, and hopefully it'll help people.

所以我根据自己的经历写了一篇文章，希望对大家有所帮助。

But the point is, in those circumstances where there's a lot of emotion, it's important because it connects to the audience, it makes it human, but sometimes the emotion can get in the way for you as a communicator.

但关键是，在那些有很多情感的情况下，这很重要，因为它与观众联系在一起，它使人变得人性化，但有时情感可能会妨碍你作为沟通者。

I mean, I was very concerned that my emotion would cover up or overshadow the honoring I was trying to do of my father.

我的意思是，我非常担心我的情绪会掩盖或掩盖我试图向父亲表达的敬意。

But the same thing can happen in any kind of toast situation.

但同样的事情可能发生在任何类型的吐司情况下。

Matt Abrahams: So think about emotion.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：所以考虑一下情感。

Emotion is a tool to use.

情感是一种可以使用的工具。

The best way to convey emotion in a toast is through the anecdotes you use.

在祝酒词中表达情感的最好方法是通过你使用的轶事。

The anecdotes reveal the emotion.

轶事揭示了情感。

It's one thing to say, "I am so sad." It's another thing to tell a story that is sad.

说“我很伤心”是一回事。讲述一个悲伤的故事是另一回事。

Matt Abrahams: I was very fortunate to interview for my podcast coming up soon, a one-panel cartoonist.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯（Matt Abrahams）：我很幸运能够接受我即将推出的播客的采访，一位单面板漫画家。

So she has to create everything in one panel.

所以她必须在一个面板中创建所有内容。

And her advice is: Don't tell, show.

她的建议是：不要说出来，而是展示出来。

In that don't tell somebody you're angry, show that you're angry in the panel she writes.

不要告诉别人你很生气，而是在她写的面板中表明你很生气。

So showing the emotion through story and anecdote is the way to do it.

所以通过故事和轶事来表达情感是做到这一点的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Have you had Matthew Dix on your podcast?

Lenny Rachitsky：你的播客上有马修·迪克斯吗？

Matt Abrahams: So it is so funny.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：这太有趣了。

I have not, and I want to.

我没有，我也想。

His name comes up more than anybody else's.

他的名字比其他人的名字出现得更多。

And I know of his work and his advice, so I might ask you to connect me.

我了解他的工作和建议，所以我可能会请你联系我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

I thought of him as you were talking because he helps people create their eulogy ahead of time before somebody passes away, before you get really emotional and you have to rush it.

当你说话时，我想到了他，因为他帮助人们在某人去世之前，在你变得非常情绪化而不得不匆忙之前，提前创作悼词。

So that's one of his services is he helps to write eulogies for people.

所以他的服务之一就是帮助人们写悼词。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的，是的。

No, I'd love an introduction.

不，我想要一个介绍。

His work is very influential.

他的作品很有影响力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

He's amazing.

他太棒了。

We'll link his episode about storytelling.

我们将链接他关于讲故事的剧集。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let me talk about a couple more.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我再谈谈一些。

Q&A, getting better at question, answer at the end of a talk, whether it's on the spot or not.

问答，提高提问能力，在演讲结束时回答，无论是否在现场。

Matt Abrahams: Again, I always start with approach.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：再说一次，我总是从方法开始。

Many of us see Q&A as threatening or challenging, and in fact, we need to see Q&A as an opportunity.

我们许多人将问答视为威胁或挑战，事实上，我们需要将问答视为机会。

It's an opportunity to extend, expand, connect, learn.

这是一个扩展、拓展、联系、学习的机会。

Even in the most hostile of situations where people are really coming at you with a lot of spice or hot and heavy, you can get a lot of value out of it.

即使在最敌对的情况下，人们真的带着很多香料或辛辣的味道向你走来，你也可以从中获得很多价值。

So we have to come to the approaches.

所以我们必须找到方法。

These questions are opportunities.

这些问题都是机会。

We have to make sure that we take the question in without interrupting or over-validating the question.

我们必须确保我们在回答问题时不会打断或过度验证问题。

Matt Abrahams: I have two pet peeves about Q&A sessions.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我对问答环节有两个不满。

One is saying good question to every question.

一是对每一个问题都提出好问题。

And two, at the end of answering the question saying, "Does that make sense?" Because in both cases, you're trying to validate the asker when you say good question.

第二，在回答问题的最后说：“这有道理吗？”因为在这两种情况下，当你提出好问题时，你都是在试图验证提问者的观点。

You're also trying to buy yourself time.

你也在努力为自己争取时间。

And there are other ways to do that.

还有其他方法可以做到这一点。

And at the end when you say, "Does that make sense," you've got a laudable goal in mind, which is, "Did I answer your question?" But I'd much rather you say, "Did I answer your question?

最后，当你说“这有道理吗”时，你心里就有了一个值得称赞的目标，那就是“我回答了你的问题吗？”但我更希望你说：“我回答你的问题了吗？

Can I tell you more?

我可以告诉你更多吗？

Do you have a follow-up question?"" Because if you keep saying, "does that make sense, does that make sense," people are going to start thinking, "Maybe he doesn't make sense because he is always asking." So some pet peeves there.

你有后续问题吗？”“因为如果你一直说，“这有道理吗？这有道理吗？”人们会开始思考，“也许他没有道理，因为他总是在问。”所以有些令人烦恼的地方。

Matt Abrahams: Once the question comes in and you have to answer it, I have yet another structure.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：一旦问题出现，你必须回答它，我还有另一个结构。

This structure is related to the what, so what, now what structure.

该结构与“什么”、“那么什么”、“现在什么”结构相关。

It's called ADD for adding value.

它被称为ADD，用于增加价值。

You answer the question cleanly and concisely.

您干净简洁地回答了问题。

You then give an example to reinforce the answer, and then you explain the relevance or significance of the answer so people know it.

然后你举一个例子来强化答案，然后你解释答案的相关性或意义，以便人们知道它。

Would you mind role-playing an example of this with me, Lenny?

莱尼，你介意和我一起扮演一个这样的例子吗？

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

马特·亚伯拉罕：好的。

Imagine you're hiring me.

想象一下你正在雇用我。

You're a hiring manager, and I'm interviewing to be what I do for my day job.

你是一名招聘经理，而我参加面试是为了我的日常工作。

I'm a lecturer at Stanford's Business School, teach strategic communication.

我是斯坦福大学商学院的讲师，教授战略沟通。

You so happen to have a position open for a strategic communication lecturer.

您恰好有一个战略传播讲师的职位空缺。

I show up.

我出现了。

What is a reasonable question you would ask that doesn't just have a yes no answer?

您会问什么是一个合理的问题，而不仅仅是一个“是”或“否”的答案？

Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, so you're interviewing for a role to be a lecturer in my school and communication.

Lenny Rachitsky：等等，您正在面试我的学校和传播学讲师的职位。

Matt Abrahams: Yes.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

You're the dean.

你是院长。

You get to hire me.

你可以雇用我。

What's a reasonable question?

什么是合理的问题？

I mean, you could ask a super hard one, but I want people to hear how ADD works.

我的意思是，你可以问一个非常难的问题，但我希望人们听到 ADD 是如何运作的。

Lenny Rachitsky: This might be too simple, but just how many students have you worked with and taught over the years?

Lenny Rachitsky：这可能太简单了，但这些年来您共事并教过多少学生？

Matt Abrahams: Okay, so I'm going to morph that question because I could just say thousands, which is true, but I'm going to turn it into a question about experience, because really what you're asking me is what's my experience?

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：好的，我要改变这个问题，因为我可以说成千上万，这是事实，但我要把它变成一个关于经验的问题，因为你真正问我的是我的经验是什么？

So because that I can give an ADD answer too.

因为这样我也可以给出一个 ADD 答案。

If it's just a numeric answer, just give a number.

如果只是一个数字答案，就给出一个数字。

So I might say, "I've been doing this for 25 years and I have taught over thousands of students.

所以我可能会说：“我从事这行已经 25 年了，教过数千名学生。

I've taught both in the academic world, but also in the corporate world.

我既在学术界任教，也在企业界任教。

What this means is I can tailor my material to be relevant and useful to your students."

这意味着我可以定制我的材料，使其与您的学生相关且有用。”

Matt Abrahams: So I answered the question.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：所以我回答了这个问题。

The question was, what's your experience?

问题是，你的经历是什么？

25 years, thousands of students.

25年，数千名学生。

I then give an example.

然后我举一个例子。

I've done this in the corporate world, I've done this in the academic world.

我在企业界这样做过，在学术界也这样做过。

So I ground it in something tangible.

所以我把它放在有形的东西上。

And then I show the relevance.

然后我展示相关性。

What this means for you as a dean hiring me, is that I'm going to be able to tailor my experience.

对于雇用我的院长来说，这意味着我将能够调整我的经验。

We often assume that people can connect the dots.

我们经常假设人们可以将这些点联系起来。

If I give my answer, you're going to see, "Oh, that's why this is relevant and important." But we need to actually connect those dots for our audience.

如果我给出答案，你会看到，“哦，这就是为什么这是相关且重要的。”但我们需要为观众真正连接这些点。

Matt Abrahams: I had a psychology professor once who said, the funny thing about common sense is it's not so common, and we often make the assumption that people will connect the dots.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我曾经有一位心理学教授说过，常识的有趣之处在于它并不那么普遍，我们经常假设人们会把这些点联系起来。

So answer the question, give a detailed example, and then explain the relevance.

所以回答问题，给出一个详细的例子，然后解释相关性。

And if you do that, it will help.

如果你这样做，将会有所帮助。

And I challenge every one of your listeners working in companies that have FAQs, frequently asked questions, go back to those FAQs and put them in this structure.

我向在有常见问题解答、常见问题的公司工作的每一位听众提出挑战，请返回这些常见问题解答并将其放入此结构中。

Not only will it help you digest and get familiar and comfortable with the structure, anybody looking at those answers begins to see that this is a way to give a complete answer.

它不仅可以帮助您消化并熟悉和适应结构，任何查看这些答案的人都会开始发现这是给出完整答案的一种方式。

This is how our organization answers questions.

这就是我们组织回答问题的方式。

And that can be so helpful to building consistency and helping yourself answer better.

这对于建立一致性并帮助自己更好地回答非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to clarify, the acronym is ADD?

Lenny Rachitsky：澄清一下，缩写词是 ADD？

Matt Abrahams: ADD.

马特·亚伯拉罕：添加。

Answer, detailed example, describe the relevance.

回答，详细举例，描述相关性。

Lenny Rachitsky: Describe the relevance.

Lenny Rachitsky：描述一下相关性。

I see how you snuck that D in there.

我知道你是如何把 D 偷偷放进去的。

Matt Abrahams: Yeah.

马特·亚伯拉罕：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, you can come up with whatever acronym you want that helps you remember.

我的意思是，你可以想出任何你想要的缩写词来帮助你记住。

ADD because it adds value.

添加，因为它增加了价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And maybe one last quick one, apologizing.

也许还有最后一件事，道歉。

What's a couple tips for getting better at apologizing on the spot?

有哪些技巧可以帮助你更好地当场道歉？

Matt Abrahams: First and foremost, we need to take the time to apologize.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：首先，我们需要花时间道歉。

Many of us don't.

我们很多人都没有。

And when we apologize, we need to make sure that we apologize for the transgression and not for how we made people feel.

当我们道歉时，我们需要确保我们为自己的过失道歉，而不是为我们给人们带来的感受道歉。

So often people will simply say, "I'm sorry that you feel bad." Well, that's not an apology.

人们常常会简单地说：“我很抱歉让你感觉不好。”嗯，这不是道歉。

You're not assuming responsibility.

你没有承担责任。

So we need to first start by talking about the issue that we are addressing or the problem that we caused somebody.

因此，我们需要首先讨论我们正在解决的问题或我们给某人造成的问题。

So we need to think about apologies in that way.

所以我们需要以这种方式考虑道歉。

So an apology to me, I have a AAA, like roadside repair service here in the United States, AAA.

所以向我道歉，我有 AAA，就像美国这里的路边维修服务，AAA。

It's three steps, acknowledge, appreciate, and amends.

分为三个步骤，承认、欣赏、修正。

So I have to acknowledge what I did.

所以我必须承认我所做的事情。

Matt Abrahams: So imagine we're in a meeting and I interrupted you.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：想象一下我们正在开会，我打断了你。

You were in the midst of speaking and I interrupted you.

你正在说话，我打断了你。

So I might say, "I'm very sorry for interrupting what you were saying.

所以我可能会说：“我很抱歉打断了你的话。

I over-spoke when you were talking." I'm acknowledging what I did.

你说话的时候我就说多了。”我承认我所做的事情。

Matt Abrahams: Then I appreciate.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：那我很感激。

"I can imagine my doing that made you feel bad and you feel that you didn't get your fair share of sharing your point of view." So that's the appreciation.

“我可以想象我的做法让你感觉很糟糕，你觉得你没有得到公平的机会分享你的观点。”这就是欣赏。

Matt Abrahams: The amends part is, "I will work not to do this.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：修正部分是，“我会努力不这样做。

In fact, I will wait till you're done, and I will actually paraphrase what you said before I contribute my point." So I'm signaling I understand it, and here's the very specific thing I'm going to do to try to remedy it, which of course you can comment on.

事实上，我会等你说完，然后在发表我的观点之前我会解释一下你所说的内容。”所以我表示我理解它，这是我将要做的非常具体的事情来尝试补救它，当然你可以对此发表评论。

You can say, no, I don't think that's enough.

你可以说，不，我认为这还不够。

I think you whatever, or thank you, I think that's even more than is needed, whatever.

我想你无论如何，或者谢谢你，我认为这甚至超出了需要，无论如何。

So you acknowledge the actual behavior and offense, not how you made the person feel right away.

因此，您承认实际的行为和冒犯，而不是您立即让对方感受到的感觉。

You then express appreciation for the difficulty you might've caused, and then you make amends.

然后你对你可能造成的困难表示感谢，然后你做出弥补。

And the AAA approach, I think can really be helpful to people to be better at in-the-moment apologies.

我认为 AAA 方法确实可以帮助人们更好地进行即时道歉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Matt, I think we've packed this episode with so many tactical golden nuggets to help people become better communicators, especially on the spot.

马特，我认为我们在这一集中包含了很多战术金块，以帮助人们成为更好的沟通者，尤其是在现场。

Is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with before I ask you how they can find you online and things like that?

在我问你如何在网上找到你之类的问题之前，你还有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？

Matt Abrahams: Again, I want to go back to how we started the second part about spontaneous speaking.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：我想再次回顾一下我们如何开始关于即兴演讲的第二部分。

Everybody can get better at communication.

每个人都可以更好地沟通。

And I encourage, I challenge people to take the steps that they need to take to do it.

我鼓励、挑战人们采取他们需要采取的步骤来做到这一点。

So it starts with initiative.

所以一切都要从主动性开始。

It's followed by grace and a lot of compassion, it takes time.

接下来是恩典和大量的同情心，这需要时间。

But in so doing, you can improve your communication and help others.

但这样做可以改善您的沟通并帮助他人。

It's not just about you finding your voice, it's about you sharing that voice with others.

这不仅仅是你找到自己的声音，而是与他人分享你的声音。

So taking the time to work on your communication is critically important, and I encourage everybody to do so.

因此，花时间进行沟通至关重要，我鼓励每个人都这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I'm hoping people will follow that advice.

我希望人们会遵循这个建议。

And if not, think back to what we talked about at the beginning of just how much impact these have and how many people are also going through the same challenges you're probably feeling speaking and being on the spot.

如果没有，请回想一下我们在开始时讨论的内容，这些影响有多大，以及有多少人也在经历您在演讲和现场时可能感受到的相同挑战。

All right, where can folks find your podcast, your book, and also how can listeners be useful to you?

好吧，人们在哪里可以找到你的播客、你的书，以及听众如何对你有用？

Matt Abrahams: Oh, I love that last question.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：哦，我喜欢最后一个问题。

So mattabrahams.com, great place to go to to find things.

所以 mattabrahams.com 是寻找东西的好地方。

So at mattabrahams.com you'll find a whole bunch of resources.

因此，在 mattabrahams.com，您会找到大量资源。

My own and others.

我自己的和其他人的。

I've curated a bunch of resources.

我整理了很多资源。

You can find Think Fast, Talk Smart wherever you get podcasts and on YouTube.

无论您在何处观看播客和 YouTube，都可以找到《Think Fast, Talk Smart》。

And then the book Think Faster, Talk Smarter is available everywhere.

然后，《Think Faster, Talk Smarter》一书随处可见。

I'm a huge user of LinkedIn.

我是 LinkedIn 的忠实用户。

And to answer that last question you asked, I invite people to connect on LinkedIn.

为了回答你问的最后一个问题，我邀请人们在 LinkedIn 上进行联系。

I'd love to hear their stories and find ways to collaborate.

我很想听听他们的故事并找到合作的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And your podcast is ranked higher than this podcast.

而且你的播客排名比这个播客高。

You're in a different category, which is a very competitive category.

你属于一个不同的类别，这是一个竞争非常激烈的类别。

The business category.

业务类别。

I've moved myself to the technology category, which feels more natural to me, but your podcast is killing it, so congrats.

我已经将自己转移到技术类别，这对我来说感觉更自然，但你的播客正在扼杀它，所以恭喜。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Lenny Rachitsky：感谢您与我们分享您的智慧。

That's it.

就是这样。

Matt, thank you again for being here.

马特，再次感谢你来到这里。

Matt Abrahams: Great pleasure to have the conversation with you, Lenny.

马特·亚伯拉罕斯：很高兴与你交谈，莱尼。

I enjoyed it thoroughly.

我非常享受它。

Same.

相同的。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。