Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Marty Cagan: There is no question that a lot of companies overhired during the pandemic.

马蒂·凯根：毫无疑问，许多公司在疫情期间过度招聘。

I go into some companies and honestly I can't believe all the ridiculous roles that they have, agile coaches and product owners and product ops and business analysts.

我进入一些公司，说实话，我无法相信他们拥有的所有荒谬的角色，敏捷教练、产品负责人、产品运营人员和业务分析师。

Lenny: And this is essentially the theater you're describing, people that aren't real product managers.

莱尼：这本质上就是你所描述的剧院，这些人不是真正的产品经理。

Marty Cagan: They're dramatically overpaid for the value they provide.

马蒂·凯根（Marty Cagan）：相对于他们所提供的价值，他们的报酬明显过高。

Because it's a project management role.

因为这是一个项目管理角色。

It is a lot easier to deliver output than it is to deliver outcomes.

交付产出比交付结果容易得多。

Lenny: What made you decide to write another book and what is it about?

莱尼：是什么让你决定再写一本书？它是关于什么的？

Marty Cagan: Too many people in our industry view themselves as a victim of their company, like they're stuck in a feature team and there's nothing they can do about it other than quit.

Marty Cagan：我们行业中有太多人将自己视为公司的受害者，就像他们被困在一个功能团队中一样，除了退出之外他们无能为力。

I think that's not true.

我认为这不是真的。

There is so much they can do.

他们能做的事情有很多。

Lenny: Today my guest is Marty Cagan.

莱尼：今天我的客人是马蒂·凯根。

Marty has been helping product teams and product managers improve their craft, processes and careers for over 20 years.

20 多年来，Marty 一直在帮助产品团队和产品经理改进他们的技术、流程和职业生涯。

He's worked with more product teams and more product managers than any human alive.

他与任何人合作过的产品团队和产品经理的数量比任何人都多。

He's also written two of the most popular books in the field of product management, INSPIRED and EMPOWERED, and this week he's releasing his newest book, TRANSFORMED.

他还撰写了产品管理领域最受欢迎的两本书《INSPIRED》和《EMPOWERED》，本周他将发行他的最新书《TRANSFORMED》。

In our conversation, we cover some spicy and important topics.

在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了一些辛辣而重要的话题。

Where the product management field is going, the over hiring of product managers and adjacent functions, a trend he's noticed called product management theater.

产品管理领域的发展方向是产品经理和相关职能部门的过度招聘，他注意到这种趋势被称为产品管理剧院。

Also, why most product management advice you find online is giving you the wrong advice and why that's the case.

此外，为什么您在网上找到的大多数产品管理建议都给您提供了错误的建议，以及为什么会出现这种情况。

Why many product managers are simply project managers and how to avoid becoming that person.

为什么许多产品经理只是项目经理以及如何避免成为那样的人。

Also, how to avoid hiring that person.

另外，如何避免雇用那个人。

What skills you need to work on and build to be an incredible product manager, especially with AI.

要成为一名出色的产品经理，尤其是人工智能方面的产品经理，您需要掌握和培养哪些技能。

Lenny: How to shift your team and company to be more empowered.

Lenny：如何让你的团队和公司变得更加强大。

Signs that you're working on a feature team and why you probably don't want to be there and so much more.

表明您正在功能团队工作的迹象以及您可能不想在那里的原因等等。

If you care about the field of product management and where it's going, you'll absolutely love this episode.

如果您关心产品管理领域及其发展方向，您绝对会喜欢这一集。

With that, I bring you Marty Cagan after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了马蒂·凯根。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Let me tell you about a product called Sprig.

让我告诉你一个叫做 Sprig 的产品。

Next gen product teams like Figma and Notion rely on sprig to build products that people love.

Figma 和 Notion 等下一代产品团队依靠 sprig 来构建人们喜爱的产品。

Sprig is an AI powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently.

Sprig 是一个人工智能驱动的平台，使您能够从正确的用户那里收集相关的产品体验见解，以便您可以快速、自信地做出产品决策。

Lenny: Here's how it works.

莱尼：这就是它的工作原理。

It all starts with Sprig's precise targeting, which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on user's characteristics and actions taken in product.

这一切都始于 Sprig 的精确定位，它允许您根据用户的特征和在产品中采取的操作触发应用内研究。

Then Sprigs AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings.

然后，Sprigs AI 会分层在所有研究之上，以立即呈现您产品的最大学习成果。

Sprig Surveys enables you to target specific users to get relevant and timely feedback.

Sprig Surveys 使您能够定位特定用户以获得相关且及时的反馈。

Sprig Replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand.

Sprig Replays 使您能够捕获目标会话剪辑，以第一时间了解您的产品体验。

Sprig's AI is a game changer for product teams.

Sprig 的 AI 改变了产品团队的游戏规则。

They're the only platform with product level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations in one real time feed.

它们是唯一具有产品级人工智能的平台，这意味着它会分析您所有研究中的数据，以将最重要的产品机会、趋势和相关性集中在一个实时源中。

Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off.

请访问 sprig.com/lenny 了解更多信息并享受 10% 折扣。

That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.

那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 AB 测试和功能管理平台。

Lenny: Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Lenny：Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要，Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成所有这些工作，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Lenny: Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the AB testing flywheel.

Lenny：Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 AB 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product growth, machine learning, monetization and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's getE-P-P-O.com/lenny.

那是 getE-P-P-O.com/lenny。

Marty Cagan, welcome back to the podcast.

马蒂·凯根，欢迎回到播客。

Marty Cagan: Thanks very much Lenny.

马蒂·凯根：非常感谢莱尼。

Thanks for inviting me back.

谢谢你邀请我回来。

Lenny: Thank you for coming back.

莱尼：谢谢你回来。

So our first episode together is still one of the top five most popular episodes of my entire podcast, which is wild because the podcast was much smaller back then.

所以我们的第一集仍然是我整个播客中最受欢迎的五集之一，这很疯狂，因为当时的播客要小得多。

You've also got a book coming out.

您还出版了一本书。

We're going to talk about that.

我们要讨论这个。

You've also been getting a lot more spicy in your writing as of late.

最近你的写作也变得更加辛辣。

You've been writing about product management theater and product leadership theater and all these sorts of things.

您一直在撰写有关产品管理剧场和产品领导力剧场以及所有此类内容的文章。

So I'm excited to dig into a lot of these things.

所以我很高兴能够深入研究这些事情。

I thought I'd start with just asking what is driving this recent spiciness in your writing?

我想我应该首先问一下是什么推动了你最近写作的辛辣？

Marty Cagan: It's conscious.

马蒂·凯根：这是有意识的。

I find myself, I'm aware of myself dialing up the rhetoric around this stuff.

我发现我自己，我意识到自己正在围绕这件事展开言辞。

I've actually been saying these things for a long time, honestly, and it's on the record.

老实说，这些话我其实已经说了很长时间了，而且都记录在案了。

You can read the blog articles from 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but things are changing.

你可以阅读10年前、20年前的博客文章，但情况正在发生变化。

And first of all, I should acknowledge, I don't know if you're this way Lenny, but most product people I know like me are paranoid.

首先，我应该承认，我不知道你是不是这样，莱尼，但我认识的大多数像我一样的产品人员都是偏执狂。

So we're always worried that things are going to come and just take our customers away and disrupt our products.

因此，我们总是担心会发生一些事情，从而夺走我们的客户并扰乱我们的产品。

And so I know that there's a degree of that.

所以我知道这是有一定程度的。

I'm always looking at what are the things that could really shake things up in a good way but also in a bad way?

我一直在关注哪些事情可以真正以好的方式但也可以以坏的方式改变事物？

And there's been a number of things I've been very worried about for a long time and I think that there's a convergence of factors that are going on and one of the challenges is it's simultaneous.

很长一段时间以来，有很多事情我一直非常担心，我认为有多种因素正在同时发生，挑战之一是它是同时发生的。

Marty Cagan: So there are a number of things happening in parallel, which is a recipe for some chaos and a lot of fear.

马蒂·凯根：所以有很多事情同时发生，这导致了一些混乱和很多恐惧。

And in the product community, in the design community, in the engineering community, it's there.

在产品社区、设计社区、工程社区，它都在那里。

You can see it.

你可以看到它。

And like you, I talk to people pretty much every day.

和你一样，我几乎每天都与人交谈。

So I do have a lot of theories about why this is going on and what people can do to best protect themselves, their career, their companies.

因此，我确实有很多理论来解释为什么会发生这种情况，以及人们可以采取哪些措施来最好地保护自己、他们的职业生涯和他们的公司。

And so I'm happy to share that, but it's not small.

所以我很高兴分享这一点，但这并不小。

It's not a small set.

这不是一个小集合。

Maybe before I get into it though, I realize that people should understand where I'm coming from and how it's different than where you're coming from because this perspective...

也许在我开始之前，我意识到人们应该了解我来自哪里，以及它与你来自哪里有何不同，因为这个观点......

Just to be clear, I think we're both trying to help the product community, but we're trying to do it in very different ways.

需要澄清的是，我认为我们都在努力帮助产品社区，但我们尝试以非常不同的方式做到这一点。

Marty Cagan: And I want to be clear, I love the way you do it.

马蒂·凯根：我想澄清的是，我喜欢你的做法。

In fact, if people don't know, I'm a paid subscriber to yours because I find it incredibly useful for what I want to do.

事实上，如果人们不知道的话，我是你的付费订阅者，因为我发现它对我想做的事情非常有用。

So let's talk about that.

那么我们来谈谈这个吧。

You obviously could describe what you do better than anyone, but my take is that you are, and this is what I find valuable, you're sharing a broad range, increasingly broad range of perspectives, people, ways of working, ways of doing products, experiments with the product model, experiments in leadership.

显然，你可以描述你比任何人都做得更好，但我的看法是，你是，这就是我认为有价值的，你分享了广泛的、越来越广泛的观点、人员、工作方式、做产品的方式、产品模型的实验、领导力的实验。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

It actually helps me a lot.

它实际上对我有很大帮助。

That's why I subscribe.

这就是我订阅的原因。

And I'll be honest, the main reason I took some prodding for me to...

老实说，我接受一些刺激的主要原因是......

I know there's something about actually paying for a subscription when there's a hundred different product related newsletters and stuff, but what happened was you have a lot of subscribers and people that I know would see something and they'd email me and they'd say, "Did you see what Lenny was talking about with Lenny or with whoever?

我知道，当有一百种不同的产品相关时事通讯和其他东西时，实际上需要付费订阅，但发生的情况是，你有很多订阅者和我认识的人会看到一些东西，他们会给我发电子邮件，他们会说，“你看到莱尼与莱尼或任何人谈论的内容了吗？

And how do you explain that?

你如何解释这一点？

What do you think is going on?"

你觉得这是怎么回事？”

Marty Cagan: And it made me want to watch a lot of these.

马蒂·凯根：这让我想看很多这样的节目。

Some of companies I know, but other ones you've introduced me to that I don't know anybody at.

有些公司我认识，但有些是你介绍给我的，但我一个人都不认识。

So to me that's incredibly valuable.

所以对我来说这是非常有价值的。

It's a whole lot easier than the way it used to be, which is a whole lot of traveling to a lot of companies.

这比以前要经常出差去很多公司要容易得多。

So I love that.

所以我喜欢这样。

You are helping so many people to get a broader understanding of product.

您正在帮助很多人对产品有更广泛的了解。

My goal is different, the SVPG.

我的目标不同，SVPG。

We are also trying to help the product community, but it's interesting when I watch your interviews, you're trying to pry out of people what's special about what they do, which is what I want to hear.

我们也在努力帮助产品社区，但当我观看你的采访时，很有趣，你试图从人们身上探听他们所做的事情的特别之处，这正是我想听到的。

But interestingly, what I'm looking for is not what's different, it's what's the same.

但有趣的是，我寻找的不是不同之处，而是相同之处。

What we are all about is sharing the principles and the practices that are used consistently by the best product companies.

我们所做的就是分享最好的产品公司一贯使用的原则和实践。

In fact, we have a heuristic, we've never made a secret of this.

事实上，我们有一个启发式的方法，我们从来没有隐瞒过这一点。

Marty Cagan: We are always asked about new techniques and new methods, new processes and we're like, "Look, we need to see it being used by at least several of the companies that have proven they can consistently innovate." If those companies can use it productively, we're all about evangelizing that.

Marty Cagan：我们总是被问及新技术、新方法、新流程，我们会说，“看，我们需要看到至少有几家公司正在使用它，并证明他们能够持续创新。”如果这些公司能够有效地使用它，我们就会全力宣传这一点。

We make this clear in every one of the books.

我们在每一本书中都明确说明了这一点。

We don't invent any of these things.

这些东西都不是我们发明的。

We just, if they work, we like to talk about them.

我们只是，如果它们有效，我们喜欢谈论它们。

So we are looking for the commonality and mostly we're looking to help a company, whether it's a startup or a large company to have the best possible chance of success.

因此，我们正在寻找共性，主要是希望帮助公司（无论是初创公司还是大公司）获得最大的成功机会。

That's the goal for us.

这就是我们的目标。

It's a different goal.

这是一个不同的目标。

You can see that.

你可以看到这一点。

So all these data points become interesting as data points, but we're looking for those things that last and you never know.

因此，所有这些数据点都变得有趣，但我们正在寻找那些持久且你永远不知道的东西。

You have to see.

你一定要看看。

Marty Cagan: For one, I love working with startups, but as you know, a lot of startups are dominated by the founder and the early people and it almost doesn't matter what techniques they use.

Marty Cagan：一方面，我喜欢与初创公司合作，但如你所知，很多初创公司都是由创始人和早期人员主导的，他们使用什么技术几乎并不重要。

If they're good, it's amazing what they do.

如果他们做得很好，他们所做的事情就会令人惊奇。

That's just amazing.

这真是太棒了。

And so that's probably important to get out of the way.

因此，摆脱困境可能很重要。

Lenny: I agree with everything you said.

莱尼：我同意你所说的一切。

I think we are very different in what we're providing to the product community.

我认为我们为产品社区提供的服务非常不同。

And it's interesting being on this side of the microphone is I built a lot of empathy for journalists.

有趣的是，在麦克风的这一边，我对记者产生了很多同理心。

I know the Brian Chesky episode is a good example where there's a lot of things there that might sound problematic and you disagreed with.

我知道布莱恩·切斯基的那一集就是一个很好的例子，其中有很多听起来可能有问题但你不同意的事情。

And as me interviewing him, the challenge I have is I have an hour with him and I have to always decide, do I go and push back and try to, hey, is this actually working the way you're describing?

当我采访他时，我面临的挑战是我和他有一个小时的时间，我必须始终决定，我是否应该回去尝试，嘿，这真的像你描述的那样有效吗？

Is this actually the right way to approach stuff?

这实际上是处理事情的正确方法吗？

Here's why maybe you would not.

这就是为什么你可能不会。

Versus there's so many things I want to get to and ask him about this stuff.

相比之下，我有很多事情想要去问他这些事情。

I'm like, oh, which way do I go?

我想，哦，我该走哪条路？

And then if I'm pushing back too hard, people are like, "I'm not going to go on this podcast where he is just questioning everything I think." So it's a really interesting role.

然后，如果我太强硬地反击，人们会说，“我不会参加这个播客，他只是在质疑我的一切想法。”所以这是一个非常有趣的角色。

Marty Cagan: I think that's totally fair.

马蒂·凯根：我认为这是完全公平的。

And also, I don't think you want to scare off your guests.

而且，我认为你不想吓跑你的客人。

This is really the platform they have to share what they think is important.

这确实是他们分享他们认为重要的东西的平台。

I do always find it entertaining because a number of the companies you profile I already know, and it's always fun to hear them describe it versus what I see at their company because of course they're not always same, but that's just human nature.

我确实总是觉得这很有趣，因为你介绍的许多公司我已经知道了，听到他们描述它与我在他们公司看到的情况总是很有趣，因为当然它们并不总是相同，但这就是人性。

We all do that.

我们都这样做。

And so anyway, I hope you continue doing what you're doing, Lenny, and I'll keep following.

所以无论如何，我希望你继续做你正在做的事情，莱尼，我会继续关注。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I appreciate it.

我很感激。

And same to you.

对你也一样。

Lenny: So with the writing, I think an implication with the way you're describing is basically you're telling people things they don't want to hear but they need to hear.

莱尼：所以在写作中，我认为你所描述的方式的含义基本上是你在告诉人们他们不想听但他们需要听的事情。

That's the way you think about it, right?

你就是这么想的，对吗？

Marty Cagan: I do.

马蒂·凯根：我愿意。

In fact, I've got some very uncomfortable things to talk about, which I know the more intelligent part of me is like, "Don't bring that up." But also the other side of me is like, "But people need to hear it."

事实上，我有一些非常不舒服的事情要谈论，我知道我更聪明的部分就像是，“不要提起这个。”但我的另一面也想，“但人们需要听到它。”

Lenny: So let's talk about it if people need to hear it, which I agree.

莱尼：如果人们需要听的话，我们就来讨论一下，我同意。

So you've been talking about this concept of product management theater and product leadership theater.

所以你一直在谈论产品管理剧场和产品领导剧场的概念。

Let's get into it.

让我们开始吧。

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

What is the sign that you're in this theater versus doing it the way you should be doing it?

有什么迹象表明你在这个剧院而不是按照你应该做的方式做事？

Marty Cagan: There is no question that a lot of companies overhired during the pandemic.

马蒂·凯根：毫无疑问，许多公司在疫情期间过度招聘。

That was easy to see even while it was going on.

即使在事情发生的时候，这一点也很容易看出。

And it's not just that they overhired, a lot of them lowered the bar.

他们不仅过度雇用员工，而且很多人还降低了标准。

But at the same time, of course we have a change in the financial world that has really increased the cost of funds.

但与此同时，当然，金融世界发生了变化，确实增加了资金成本。

And that's another thing going on simultaneously.

这是同时发生的另一件事。

And probably one of the biggest things of all, and this is the hardest because it's not happened yet, is the predicted impact of generative AI, right?

也许最重要的事情之一，也是最难的，因为它还没有发生，是生成人工智能的预测影响，对吧？

I don't know if you saw, literally the CEO of NVIDIA the other day was saying don't learn programming.

我不知道你有没有看到，前几天NVIDIA的CEO确实说过不要学编程。

Marty Cagan: First of all, I'm not even sure that's good advice, but the fact that the CEO of one of the most amazing companies in the world is saying don't learn programming, that's disruptive.

马蒂·凯根：首先，我什至不确定这是个好建议，但事实上，世界上最令人惊叹的公司之一的首席执行官说不要学习编程，这是破坏性的。

And so at a minimum it creates uncertainty among the leaders in the companies, at a minimum.

因此，它至少会给公司领导者带来不确定性。

But honestly, I think there's very real impact.

但老实说，我认为这有非常实际的影响。

I'm convinced of that.

我对此深信不疑。

I just don't know the real time horizon.

我只是不知道实时范围。

I've got a long history of being overly optimistic.

我长期以来一直过于乐观。

I think things are going to happen sooner than they really do.

我认为事情会比实际发生的更快。

So I don't know when they'll really happen, but that's a big one.

所以我不知道它们什么时候会真正发生，但那是一件大事。

Here's another one that I think is not talked nearly enough about, and that is in a lot of companies, especially outside of Silicon Valley, team size has just gotten out of hand.

我认为还有一个问题还没有被充分讨论，那就是在很多公司中，尤其是在硅谷之外，团队规模已经失控。

I go into some companies and honestly I can't believe all the ridiculous roles that they have.

我进入过一些公司，老实说，我无法相信他们所扮演的所有荒谬的角色。

And I'll go into that more if you want later, but no question that people realize that smaller teams can often produce more and better results.

如果您愿意，我稍后会详细讨论这一点，但毫无疑问，人们意识到较小的团队通常可以产生更多更好的结果。

Marty Cagan: How many of your guests have said as much?

马蒂·凯根：有多少位客人说过同样的话？

I've heard it from many of them.

我从他们中的许多人那里听说过。

It's reducing the size of the organization ironically can get you a lot more in terms of results.

具有讽刺意味的是，缩小组织规模可以让你获得更多的成果。

So there's this general appreciation that maybe we overdid it here with all of these roles.

因此，人们普遍认为我们在所有这些角色上做得有些过头了。

And of course I'm talking about agile coaches and product owners and product ops and business analysts and all these assistant product manager types.

当然，我谈论的是敏捷教练、产品所有者、产品运营和业务分析师以及所有这些助理产品经理类型。

So we'll go into that if you want, but it's gotten out of hand at a lot of companies.

如果你愿意的话，我们会讨论这个问题，但很多公司都已经失控了。

And then the one that I really probably shouldn't bring up just because it's become a religious topic almost.

然后是我真的可能不应该仅仅因为它几乎成为一个宗教话题而提出的问题。

I know it's a super sensitive topic for people, but the reality is with remote employees, both velocity and innovation have taken a real hit.

我知道这对人们来说是一个超级敏感的话题，但现实是，对于远程员工来说，速度和创新都受到了真正的打击。

Now we can talk about, don't get me wrong, I don't think we're ever going to go back to the days of big companies having almost all co-located teams.

现在我们可以谈谈，不要误会我的意思，我认为我们不会回到大公司几乎所有团队都在同一地点的时代。

Marty Cagan: But there is no question, I work with a lot of them, they are all struggling with innovation and velocity.

马蒂·凯根：但毫无疑问，我与他们中的很多人一起工作，他们都在为创新和速度而苦苦挣扎。

Things go slower and they don't really do that level of innovation that they used to do.

事情进展缓慢，他们并没有真正做到像以前那样的创新水平。

And these are big factors, these are macro factors that are going on.

这些都是大因素，这些是正在发生的宏观因素。

And then on top of that, if you get outside of the Silicon Valley bubble, it's even worse because they have been investing at these companies, especially the big companies in all these extra roles.

最重要的是，如果你走出硅谷泡沫，情况会更糟，因为他们一直在投资这些公司，尤其是担任所有这些额外角色的大公司。

I mentioned agile coaches, but scrum masters and every flavor of project manager you could dream up, they're everywhere and every kind of assistant to product people.

我提到了敏捷教练，但 Scrum Master 以及你能想到的各种类型的项目经理，他们无处不在，是产品人员的各种助手。

I think it's gotten crazy.

我想它已经疯了。

In fact, I wrote an article a long time ago, something like a decade ago that was very popular at the time called Epic Waste, and I was pointing this out and saying this is crazy.

事实上，我很久以前写过一篇文章，大约十年前，当时非常流行，叫做《史诗浪费》，我指出了这一点，并说这太疯狂了。

The ironic thing is that the better companies do way more with a lot less.

具有讽刺意味的是，更好的公司用更少的钱做更多的事。

Marty Cagan: So anyway, the roles.

马蒂·凯根：无论如何，角色。

And then what about all the years that have been going on where they think these big companies think the answer lies in processes, especially things like safe, which outside of the Silicon Valley world is depressingly popular?

那么，多年来，他们认为这些大公司认为答案在于流程，尤其是像安全这样的东西，而这些东西在硅谷之外的世界却非常受欢迎，这又如何呢？

And even though scrum, a lot of people don't even understand simple processes like scrum and they miss the point.

即使是 Scrum，很多人甚至不理解像 Scrum 这样的简单流程，他们没有抓住要点。

So what's going on in so much of the world is they have so little in the way of outcomes to show for all this cost.

因此，世界上很多地方正在发生的事情是，尽管付出了如此大的代价，他们却几乎没有取得什么成果。

And we talked about the sheer number of people becomes a problem and the amount of that cost can be shocking and the amount of waste is basically embarrassing.

我们谈到，人数众多就会成为一个问题，其成本可能令人震惊，而且浪费的数量基本上令人尴尬。

So it is not a surprise to me that companies are reacting to that.

因此，公司对此做出反应并不令我感到惊讶。

The bigger surprise honestly is it's taken so long for so many companies to realize what is going on.

老实说，更令人惊讶的是这么多公司花了很长时间才意识到发生了什么。

Marty Cagan: And bottom line is today I think everybody, especially outside in those big process and role heavy companies, they need to take a hard look at how they build products and how they serve their customers.

马蒂·凯根：我认为今天的底线是每个人，尤其是那些大型流程和角色重的公司之外，他们需要认真审视如何构建产品以及如何为客户提供服务。

And they need to look harder at how the best companies do this with so much less proportional spend and so much more real return and really take a fresh look at how to best meet the needs of their customers.

他们需要更加努力地研究最好的公司如何以更少的比例支出和更多的实际回报来做到这一点，并真正重新审视如何最好地满足客户的需求。

That's what transformation is about, is moving to work like that.

这就是转型的意义所在，就是像这样开始工作。

And the ones that do that well I think are the ones with the best chance to survive.

我认为那些做得好的人是最有机会生存的人。

Lenny: I think there's just this broader trend of people just really dislike PMs in a lot of places.

Lenny：我认为在很多地方，人们确实不喜欢产品经理，这是一个更广泛的趋势。

There's this just trend of I don't want PMs at my company, I don't want PMs at my startup.

现在的趋势是，我不想在我的公司里有产品经理，我也不想在我的初创公司里有产品经理。

For a long time, we're going to have no PMs.

在很长一段时间内，我们将没有产品经理。

It's like this general idea, and I think you're saying a lot of this comes from many people who were hired as product managers that are not good at the job and people's experience with PMs is those sorts of people.

就像这个总体想法，我认为你说的很多都是来自于许多被聘为产品经理的人，他们不擅长这项工作，而人们对 PM 的经验就是这类人。

Marty Cagan: I think it's a different really answer.

马蒂·凯根：我认为这是一个不同的答案。

And I haven't gone into this, but you probably.

我还没有讨论过这个问题，但你可能会讨论。

Those examples, with very few exceptions, and I hear it all the time, almost every day, what you're describing, they're feature teams.

这些例子，除了极少数例外，我几乎每天都听到你所描述的，他们是功能团队。

And the truth is, and I've been saying this for a long time, the truth is they don't need PMs in a feature team.

事实是，我已经说过很长一段时间了，事实是他们不需要功能团队中的产品经理。

They don't because it's a project management role, Lenny, and they already have plenty of people who can cover that.

他们不这样做，因为这是一个项目管理角色，莱尼，而且他们已经有很多人可以胜任这一工作。

And furthermore, a lot of times the engineers or the designers say, "We'd rather do it ourselves than deal with this person that's got this complex and trying to be the boss of everybody and they really don't contribute anything." So that's what's really going on in my view.

此外，很多时候工程师或设计师会说，“我们宁愿自己做，也不愿与这个复杂的人打交道，并试图成为每个人的老板，而他们实际上没有做出任何贡献。”这就是我认为真正发生的事情。

They are either a delivery team or a feature team, usually a feature team in this model.

他们要么是交付团队，要么是功能团队，在此模型中通常是功能团队。

Marty Cagan: And I don't blame those people for not finding value in the product manager.

Marty Cagan：我不会责怪那些人没有发现产品经理的价值。

They are just not bringing that value.

他们只是没有带来这种价值。

They do bring a little value, in fairness, but, and this is very brutal, but they're dramatically overpaid for the value they provide.

公平地说，他们确实带来了一点价值，但是，这是非常残酷的，但他们为他们提供的价值付出了巨大的代价。

Now on the other hand, in a real product team, that's a very different job and I don't see that.

另一方面，在真正的产品团队中，这是一项非常不同的工作，我不认为这一点。

In fact, I consider that complaint you're raising as the biggest clue that they're probably our feature team.

事实上，我认为您提出的投诉是他们可能是我们的功能团队的最大线索。

And then I'll go ask them how they're working and what that person...

然后我会去问他们工作得怎么样以及那个人......

And then of course the first thing I ask the product manager is how do you define your job?

当然，我问产品经理的第一件事就是你如何定义你的工作？

And I bet you've heard a hundred variations of the mealy mouth, squishy, I facilitate this and I do some communication and I herd the cats and I'm listening to that going, man, I would not want to try to defend that job to the CEO.

我打赌你听过一百种不同的粉状嘴，软软的，我促进了这一点，我做了一些沟通，我放了猫，我正在听那句话，伙计，我不想试图向首席执行官捍卫这份工作。

Lenny: I know you talk about teams and product teams a lot.

Lenny：我知道你经常谈论团队和产品团队。

I imagine people still aren't 100% sure of exactly what you mean when you say that.

我想当你这么说时，人们仍然不能 100% 确定你的意思。

So let's spend a little time on just what does it look like when you're on a feature team, feature factory versus an empowered product team?

那么，让我们花一点时间来了解一下，当您在功能团队、功能工厂与授权产品团队中时，情况会是什么样子？

Marty Cagan: Well, there's a lot of clues for sure.

马蒂·凯根：嗯，确实有很多线索。

Some of the easiest is on a feature team, you're basically given a roadmap of output.

最简单的一些是在功能团队中，您基本上会得到一个输出路线图。

That's the key, is output.

这就是关键，就是输出。

In other words, their features are projects that usually it could have come from an executive, could have come from a big pocket customer, could have come from wherever.

换句话说，它们的功能项目通常可能来自高管，可能来自大客户，也可能来自任何地方。

But it's a bunch of features and literally you're being asked to design, build, test, deploy that feature.

但这是一堆功能，从字面上看，您被要求设计、构建、测试、部署该功能。

You're usually given dates and timeframes as well, but that's a feature team.

通常也会给你日期和时间范围，但那是一个功能团队。

You deliver.

你交付。

And don't get me wrong, that's still work, but that's output.

不要误会我的意思，这仍然是工作，但那是输出。

It is a lot easier to deliver output than it is to deliver outcomes.

交付产出比交付结果容易得多。

And a product team, an empowered product team, instead of being given that roadmap of features, they're given problems to solve.

而一个产品团队，一个被授权的产品团队，他们得到的不是功能路线图，而是需要解决的问题。

Now they're customer problems or they're business problems or both, but they're given a problem to solve.

现在他们是客户问题或业务问题或两者兼而有之，但他们有一个需要解决的问题。

Marty Cagan: Usually one or two a quarter on top of of course the keep the lights on kind of work that everybody does, but they're given hard problems to solve and the measure is not ship the thing.

马蒂·凯根：通常每个季度有一到两次，当然，除了每个人都会做的工作之外，他们还要解决一些棘手的问题，而措施并不是交付产品。

The measure is it solves the problem.

措施就是解决问题。

And that's why really the biggest difference between a strong product company and the rest is strong product companies understand it's all about outcomes.

这就是为什么强大的产品公司与其他公司之间最大的区别在于，强大的产品公司明白一切都与结果有关。

You just don't get points for shipping, you get points for delivering the value.

您不会因为运输而获得积分，而是因为交付价值而获得积分。

A lot of the CEOs and CFOs I talk to, they resonate best when I frame it as it's about time to money more than time to market.

我采访过的许多首席执行官和首席财务官都表示，当我提出这个问题时，他们最能产生共鸣，因为赚钱的时间比上市的时间更重要。

We know how to do time to market.

我们知道如何缩短上市时间。

If you insist on time to market, we know how to do that.

如果您坚持要求上市时间，我们知道该怎么做。

The techniques are well-known.

这些技术是众所周知的。

The harder part is time to money and I know that's what they care about and that's harder and that's what a product team really does.

更困难的部分是赚钱的时间，我知道这就是他们关心的事情，这更难，但这就是产品团队真正要做的事情。

Marty Cagan: It's only when you sign up for an outcome that you have the needs for a product manager.

Marty Cagan：只有当你签署了一个结果时，你才需要产品经理。

I would say in the Silicon Valley sense, that's when you need a product manager.

我想说的是，从硅谷的角度来看，这就是你需要产品经理的时候。

Because if you've been asked to solve these problems, that means you have to come up with a solution that's not only usable and feasible, which is what a feature team does, but is also valuable and viable.

因为如果您被要求解决这些问题，这意味着您必须提出一个不仅可用且可行的解决方案（这是功能团队所做的），而且也是有价值且可行的。

And that means you need a different set of skills that your engineers and your designers almost never have.

这意味着您需要一套不同的技能，而您的工程师和设计师几乎不具备这些技能。

That's not a knock on them.

这不是对他们的打击。

Those are very different skillsets.

这些是非常不同的技能。

So now you need this person who understands the customers and understands the business deeply.

所以现在你需要这个了解客户、深入了解业务的人。

That's where the product manager role came from.

这就是产品经理角色的由来。

That's what they still at a good product company are responsible for.

这就是他们仍然在一家优秀产品公司所负责的事情。

So that's a very different job.

所以这是一项非常不同的工作。

It's also if you have a person playing that kind of product manager, it is very unlikely they've got time on their hands to get in the face of the designer and start wire framing for them or start irritating the developers.

而且，如果你有一个人扮演这种产品经理，他们不太可能有时间面对设计师并开始为他们设计线框图或开始激怒开发人员。

They've got their own work to do.

他们有自己的工作要做。

Lenny: And this is essentially the theater you're describing, that people that aren't real product managers doing product management activities, can you just talk about what that looks like?

Lenny：这本质上就是你所描述的戏剧，那些不是真正的产品经理从事产品管理活动的人，你能谈谈那是什么样子吗？

Marty Cagan: The biggest example of that is that they carry this title product manager because the whole world largely, thanks to you, knows it's cool, but they're not doing any of the role and they don't have any of the skills.

马蒂·凯根：最大的例子是，他们拥有产品经理这个头衔，因为全世界很大程度上都知道这很酷，谢谢你，但他们没有扮演任何角色，也没有任何技能。

Now of course, what really bothers me is it's not that hard if they are motivated.

当然，现在真正困扰我的是，如果他们有动力的话，事情并不那么难。

It's not that hard for them to develop the skills, and that's what I talk to people about.

对他们来说培养这些技能并不难，这就是我和人们谈论的内容。

You can raise your game so that you actually can contribute at this level.

你可以提高你的水平，这样你就可以在这个级别上做出真正的贡献。

That's what you should do for your own career, but by the way, and not accidentally, that's what your company needs you to do.

这是你应该为自己的职业生涯做的事情，但顺便说一句，这也是你的公司需要你做的事情，这并非偶然。

Lenny: And for people that are listening to this wondering, what are these skills that I need to build to be a real product manager?

莱尼：对于那些正在听这个问题的人来说，要成为一名真正的产品经理，我需要培养哪些技能？

I think you often say it's mostly focused on value and viability, and that's where a lot of this-

我想你经常说它主要关注价值和生存能力，这就是很多——

Marty Cagan: Value and viability is what you are responsible for as a product manager, just like an engineer is responsible for feasibility, it has to be a solution that can be built and delivered.

Marty Cagan：价值和可行性是你作为产品经理所负责的，就像工程师负责可行性一样，它必须是一个可以构建和交付的解决方案。

But a product manager is responsible for value and viability.

但产品经理负责价值和可行性。

Another way I like to frame this is on a real empowered product team, product manager is a creator, not a facilitator.

我喜欢的另一种方式是在一个真正授权的产品团队中，产品经理是创造者，而不是促进者。

I always cringe when somebody tells me, oh, my job is to say why?

当有人告诉我，哦，我的工作就是说出为什么？时，我总是感到畏缩。

And I'm like, "Well, what do you do for the rest of the week besides the 10 minutes it takes you to say why?" It's ridiculous.

我说，“好吧，除了花 10 分钟说出原因之外，这周剩下的时间你还做什么？”这太荒谬了。

People think that.

人们这样认为。

But you know what?

但你知道吗？

On a feature team, when you're scrounging around for some justification of your job, it's not that big a surprise.

在功能团队中，当你四处寻找工作的合理性时，这并不奇怪。

But no, the why actually comes from the product strategy anyway.

但事实并非如此，无论如何，原因实际上来自于产品策略。

You don't even do the why.

你甚至不知道为什么。

Marty Cagan: A product manager is a creator and so there's this side-by-side creation with design and engineering to come up with these solutions.

Marty Cagan：产品经理是创造者，因此需要通过设计和工程的并行创造来提出这些解决方案。

Now, in order to do your job and represent value and viability, there are some real skills that are involved.

现在，为了做好你的工作并代表价值和生存能力，需要一些真正的技能。

First of all, you have to really become an expert on your users and customers.

首先，您必须真正成为用户和客户的专家。

I know that I was not allowed to take the product manager role until I had visited 30 customers in person, 15 in the US, 15 in Europe.

我知道，在我亲自拜访了 30 个客户（其中 15 个在美国，15 个在欧洲）之后，我才被允许担任产品经理的角色。

That was just the person who was coaching me.

那就是指导我的人。

That was their rule.

这是他们的规则。

And all I know is those 30 customers changed my life because I thought I knew our customers and I really didn't.

我所知道的是，这 30 位客户改变了我的生活，因为我以为我了解我们的客户，但实际上并不了解。

Another is you're supposed to be the expert on the data.

另一个是你应该是数据方面的专家。

How is our product being used?

我们的产品使用情况如何？

How is that usage changing over time?

随着时间的推移，这种用法如何变化？

How is it being purchased?

它是如何被购买的？

So that's big.

所以这很大。

Another big one is you are the person on the team that represents the compliance issues, the sales issues, the marketing issues, the financial cost issues, the monetization issues, go to market in general.

另一个重要问题是，你是团队中代表合规问题、销售问题、营销问题、财务成本问题、货币化问题、进入市场的人。

Marty Cagan: This is all legal constraints.

马蒂·凯根：这都是法律限制。

This is all the product manager.

这就是产品经理的全部。

Just think if you don't have this person on the team and you want to empower this team to make decisions, what are you going to do?

试想一下，如果你的团队中没有这个人，而你想授权这个团队做出决策，你会怎么做？

You're just going to make it up?

你只是想弥补一下吗？

Or what they usually do is they call meetings with 20 stakeholders all in a room to try to decide these things, and now you've reverted to design by committee.

或者他们通常做的是召集 20 个利益相关者在一个房间里开会，试图决定这些事情，而现在你已经恢复到由委员会设计。

So no, the product manager needs to bring this knowledge.

所以不，产品经理需要带来这些知识。

They also need to bring deep understanding of the market.

他们还需要对市场有深入的了解。

So when I describe these things to a typical product owner, they're like, "We're on different planets." What they learned in a CSPO or a PSPO class was how to manage a backlog in Jira, which to me is very analogous to learning how to operate Google Docs.

因此，当我向典型的产品负责人描述这些事情时，他们会说，“我们在不同的星球上。”他们在 CSPO 或 PSPO 课程中学到的是如何在 Jira 中管理积压工作，对我来说，这与学习如何操作 Google Docs 非常相似。

Of course, that's not the job.

当然，这不是工作。

That's something we do every day, but it's not the job just any more than...

这是我们每天都在做的事情，但这不仅仅是工作......

Marty Cagan: Developers are in Jira every day.

Marty Cagan：开发人员每天都在 Jira 中。

Does that mean that's their job?

这是否意味着那是他们的工作？

Of course not.

当然不是。

Their job is to build.

他们的工作是建造。

So this is what a product manager contributes.

所以这就是产品经理的贡献。

And really the distinction, if you want to think about it on a spectrum, a product owner is one extreme.

真正的区别是，如果你想从一个角度来思考它，产品负责人是一个极端。

And honestly, that is a role in a delivery process.

老实说，这是交付过程中的一个角色。

That has no business being a dedicated person, really doesn't.

做一个专注的人没有关系，真的没有。

And most teams I know, the senior engineer could do it better anyway.

我认识的大多数团队，高级工程师无论如何都可以做得更好。

Second on the other side of the spectrum is what we're talking about, an empowered product manager.

另一方面是我们正在谈论的第二个，即授权的产品经理。

And then a feature team product manager is somewhere in between there.

然后功能团队产品经理介于两者之间。

They do more than administer the backlog.

他们所做的不仅仅是管理积压的工作。

They do a lot of project management.

他们做了很多项目管理。

And don't get me wrong, project management is important, but it is not product management.

不要误会我的意思，项目管理很重要，但它不是产品管理。

And furthermore, in almost every company I see with feature team product managers, they have a boatload of project managers anyway.

此外，在我看到的几乎每家拥有功能团队产品经理的公司中，他们都有大量的项目经理。

Marty Cagan: So you could hear there's some exasperation in my voice because I feel like this has been quite clear for a long time, but most companies are deaf to this.

马蒂·凯根：所以你可以听出我的声音中有一些愤怒，因为我觉得这一点很长一段时间以来就已经很清楚了，但大多数公司对此充耳不闻。

They don't care.

他们不在乎。

And I have theories about why, but that's kind of depressing.

我有一些关于原因的理论，但这有点令人沮丧。

But for whatever reason, I feel like now I'm raising the volume because people are now seeing this the hard way because a lot of companies are cutting and these are easily among the most vulnerable people in a company.

但无论出于何种原因，我觉得现在我正在提高音量​​，因为人们现在看到了这一点，因为很多公司都在裁员，而这些人很容易成为公司中最脆弱的人。

Lenny: Let me actually read a quote from you where you talk about this exact point.

莱尼：让我实际读一下您的一段话，您在其中谈到了这一点。

You wrote, "I have been warning for several years that delivery team, product owners and feature team product managers are likely to be facing a reckoning as companies realize that these roles are not what they thought they were.

您写道：“多年来我一直在警告交付团队、产品负责人和功能团队产品经理可能会面临清算，因为公司意识到这些角色并不是他们想象的那样。

From what I can tell, that reckoning has begun and I'm expecting GenAI will only compound this."

据我所知，清算已经开始，我预计 GenAI 只会加剧这一情况。”

Marty Cagan: That's the pessimistic version of the world.

马蒂·凯根：这就是世界的悲观版本。

Either I might be overreacting.

要么是我反应过度了。

Might be.

可能是。

I'm not really known for being alarmist, but maybe.

我并不以危言耸听而闻名，但也许吧。

It's possible.

这是有可能的。

I hope so, but I doubt it.

我希望如此，但我对此表示怀疑。

I think these trends are real.

我认为这些趋势是真实的。

Now, does that mean people are...

现在，这是否意味着人们...

It's hopeless?

是不是没希望了？

They should all start retraining to be, I don't know what, housing construction, something that GenAI won't replace maybe?

他们都应该开始接受再培训，我不知道是什么，住房建设，也许 GenAI 不会取代？

No. I think what really this does is you need to raise your skills.

不，我认为这真正的作用是你需要提高你的技能。

Enough with the silly facades of delivery teams and feature teams.

交付团队和功能团队的愚蠢外表已经够了。

You should raise your skills.

你应该提高你的技能。

And a lot of product managers, they reach out and they're like, "I know I'm in a feature team and I don't like it." I often use the phrase they're trapped in a feature team and they're like, "This isn't what I signed up for.

很多产品经理在联系他们时会说：“我知道我在一个功能团队中，但我不喜欢这样。”我经常使用“他们被困在功能团队中”这句话，他们会说，“这不是我注册的目的。

The New York Times article about product management wasn't this.

《纽约时报》关于产品管理的文章不是这样的。

This was different." And they're like, "What should I do?

这是不同的。”他们会说，“我该怎么办？

Should I just leave my company and go to one of these other companies?"

我应该离开我的公司去其他公司之一吗？”

Marty Cagan: And I try to explain that they actually have a lot more agency than they realize.

马蒂·凯根：我试图解释说，他们实际上拥有比他们意识到的更多的代理权。

There is a lot an individual contributor...

有很多个人贡献者......

Of course, there's way more than a product leader could do.

当然，产品领导者能做的远不止这些。

And that's the biggest shame in all this, is they're not doing this.

这一切中最大的耻辱是他们没有这样做。

Most product leaders are not doing this 'cause they of course have a lot of agency, a lot of ability to change a company.

大多数产品领导者并没有这样做，因为他们当然有很多代理权，有很多改变公司的能力。

But an individual can do it as well.

但个人也可以做到。

They can raise their game.

他们可以提高比赛水平。

They can literally do a self-assessment and raise the skills from a product owner or a feature team product manager to a real product manager.

他们实际上可以进行自我评估，并将技能从产品负责人或功能团队产品经理提升为真正的产品经理。

At a minimum, I tell people, and I've seen this countless times, at a minimum, your company will appreciate it and probably promote you because you will be one of the few that actually understands these things.

至少，我告诉人们，我已经无数次看到这一点，至少，你的公司会欣赏它，并可能会提拔你，因为你将成为少数真正理解这些事情的人之一。

Hopefully even more than that, they'll say, hey, why don't we try running a set of teams this way and see how we do?

希望更重要的是，他们会说，嘿，我们为什么不尝试以这种方式管理一组团队，看看我们做得如何？

So it can happen from the ground up too.

所以它也可以从头开始发生。

Lenny: I imagine many people are wondering, how do I do this?

莱尼：我想很多人都想知道，我该怎么做？

I know you've written books, I guess there's courses, there's all kinds of things.

我知道你写过书，我猜有课程，有各种各样的东西。

If you could give people a couple tips of how to get better at this and what skills to focus on, what's a quick piece of advice you could share there?

如果您可以向人们提供一些关于如何在这方面做得更好以及需要关注哪些技能的提示，您可以在那里分享什么快速建议？

Marty Cagan: Well, this is maybe the most frustrating thing to me of all.

马蒂·凯根：嗯，这可能是我最沮丧的事情。

And in fact, I should have answered when you asked me what motivated me to get spicy, what pushed me over the edge.

事实上，当你问我是什么促使我变得辣，是什么让我崩溃时，我应该回答。

Maybe I was in a bad mood that day, I don't know.

也许那天我心情不好，我不知道。

But it was this article that made the rounds online by probably the biggest certification institution for product managers.

但正是这篇文章在可能是最大的产品经理认证机构的网络上流传开来。

And they had this big article saying, "This is what a product manager does." And it was a big graphic, and I'm looking at it and I was thinking, I cannot believe they said this out loud.

他们有一篇大文章说：“这就是产品经理所做的。”那是一张很大的图片，我看着它，我在想，我不敢相信他们大声说出来。

This is 100% project manager, 100%.

这是100%的项目经理，100%。

They didn't even pretend to put a little of the product, which most people of course are more creative than that.

他们甚至没有假装放一点产品，当然大多数人比这更有创意。

They bend over a little bit to make it look like a product manager, but not even close.

他们稍微弯下腰，让自己看起来像一个产品经理，但又不太像。

Marty Cagan: And what I realized is what's so frustrating here is you have all these people that realize things aren't good yet most places they turn are just propagating that same model.

马蒂·凯根：我意识到，令人沮丧的是，所有这些人都意识到事情并不好，但他们转向的大多数地方只是传播相同的模式。

So these certifications, which in my opinion are bogus, but most people don't know.

所以这些认证，在我看来是假的，但大多数人不知道。

And just imagine you're a brand new product manager.

想象一下您是一名全新的产品经理。

You look online probably what, 90% of the content out there is from the feature team world or worst.

你在网上看看，90% 的内容可能来自功能团队世界，或者是最糟糕的。

And so unless they get really lucky or they happen to be really lucky and have a manager that is guiding them in a good direction, it just propagates.

因此，除非他们真的很幸运，或者他们碰巧真的很幸运，并且有一位经理引导他们朝好的方向发展，否则它只会传播。

And you see this all over, articles, books, conference speakers, and a lot of times I can't even bear to watch.

你到处都可以看到这样的情况，文章、书籍、会议演讲者，很多时候我什至不忍心看。

And it's not like there aren't great people out there who can speak.

并不是说没有伟大的人可以说话。

It's just that proportionally they're in the minority.

只是按比例来说，他们属于少数。

So it's not as easy as it should be.

所以这并不像应该的那么容易。

Like you're saying, why can't people just go and learn?

就像你说的，为什么人们不能去学习呢？

Marty Cagan: They can if they're lucky enough to know where to go.

马蒂·凯根：如果他们足够幸运知道该去哪里，他们就可以。

Obviously I'm biased.

显然我有偏见。

You're biased too.

你也有偏见。

We're biased on this, but people need to take more control of their career and really use their judgment, try to figure out what do you want to be if you want to be in the product world?

我们对此有偏见，但人们需要更多地控制自己的职业生涯并真正运用自己的判断力，尝试弄清楚如果你想进入产品世界，你想成为什么？

What do you want to be?

你想成为什么？

What kind of a product manager do you want to be?

你想成为一名什么样的产品经理？

And if you want to stay, fine, but if you want to do this, then there are good resources for sure.

如果你想留下来，没问题，但如果你想这样做，那么肯定有很好的资源。

There are good resources out there.

那里有很好的资源。

And of course, I'm hoping more and more people do that.

当然，我希望越来越多的人这样做。

Lenny: I think that's such a powerful insight you just shared, that most of the content you find online about product management is, I think you called it 90%, or it's just from companies that are not doing it the right way, feature teams is the way you described it.

Lenny：我认为你刚才分享的见解非常有力，你在网上找到的有关产品管理的大部分内容，我认为你称之为 90%，或者只是来自没有以正确方式做事的公司，功能团队就是你所描述的方式。

Can you talk a bit more about that?

你能多谈谈吗？

Why is that the case?

为什么会这样呢？

Why don't we hear more from great companies?

为什么我们没有听到更多伟大公司的消息？

Marty Cagan: In fact, one of the most frustrating things for me is community.

马蒂·凯根：事实上，对我来说最令人沮丧的事情之一就是社区。

One of the things that's great about community...

社区的伟大之处之一......

You have one of the biggest communities today, but there's a lot of these communities out there in the product world, product sub communities.

您拥有当今最大的社区之一，但在产品世界中还有很多这样的社区，即产品子社区。

And the one I love about them is pretty much everybody you meet genuinely wants to help.

我喜欢他们的一点是，你遇到的几乎每个人都真诚地想提供帮助。

Really everybody.

真的是大家。

The problem is somebody posts a question, happens many times every day, and the majority of the well-meaning people jump in with what they learn at their crappy company.

问题是有人发布了一个问题，每天都会发生很多次，大多数善意的人都会带着他们在蹩脚的公司学到的东西加入进来。

And I'm looking at that and the person is, oh, thank you very much, now I know what to do.

我看着那个人，哦，非常感谢你，现在我知道该怎么做了。

And I'm going, "Oh no, there goes another one." It becomes self-propagating.

我会说，“哦不，还有另一件事。”它变得自我传播。

And what are you going to do?

你要做什么？

Is somebody going to try to police these boards, thousands and thousands of them, like a Lenny endorsed person or a Marty endorsed person?

是否有人会试图监管这些委员会，成千上万的委员会，就像莱尼认可的人或马蒂认可的人一样？

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

You probably don't want to do that.

你可能不想这样做。

Marty Cagan: It's a recipe for disaster.

马蒂·凯根：这是灾难的根源。

So there are so many reasons it propagates.

所以它传播的原因有很多。

Most of the books I see, I'm asked to review a lot of the books.

我看的大多数书，我都被要求评论很多书。

I love it when it's an exception and it's like, wow, that's a good book.

我喜欢它是一个例外，就像，哇，这是一本好书。

Teresa Torres's book, Continuous Discovery Habits, good book.

特蕾莎·托雷斯的书，《持续发现习惯》，好书。

Try to get everybody to read that.

尝试让每个人都读一下。

But that's the exception.

但这是例外。

And most of the time people are earnestly describing what they learn, not really what good companies do.

大多数时候，人们都在认真地描述他们学到的东西，而不是真正好的公司做了什么。

So it's very difficult because these are not bad people.

所以这非常困难，因为这些人都不是坏人。

They're well-meaning.

他们是善意的。

Lenny: Do you have any advice for somebody asking questions, getting answers, and having a sense of, should I listen to these people?

莱尼：对于提出问题、获得答案以及了解我是否应该倾听这些人的人，您有什么建议吗？

Marty Cagan: It's very much this exists in the whole world, right?

马蒂·凯根：全世界都存在这种情况，对吗？

Buyer beware.

买家要小心。

You have to use your judgment.

你必须运用你的判断力。

You have to think.

你必须思考。

Probably the most important skill for product people, and I know this sounds awful, but is really learning how to think critically.

对于产品人员来说，这可能是最重要的技能，我知道这听起来很糟糕，但实际上是学习如何批判性思考。

And that involves literally evaluating.

这涉及到字面上的评估。

I know I talk to people all the time when I help them for their interviewing.

我知道当我帮助人们进行面试时，我一直在与他们交谈。

I say, "Look, the most important thing, you need to do some research on the manager that will be your direct manager.

我说：“听着，最重要的是，你需要对将成为你的直接经理的经理进行一些研究。

Do some background research.

做一些背景研究。

Go look at where they worked.

去看看他们工作的地方。

It's all on LinkedIn.

这一切都在 LinkedIn 上。

Check out those companies, check out that product.

查看那些公司，查看该产品。

Make sure you are prepared there because that's what really matters.

确保您已做好准备，因为这才是真正重要的。

Not so much the company, but who's going to coach you." So there's a lot that people can do to prepare themselves, arm themselves, take more ownership of their career.

重要的不是公司，而是谁来指导你。”因此，人们可以做很多事情来准备自己、武装自己、对自己的职业生涯拥有更多的自主权。

Lenny: What's interesting, I'm sure you'll run into this and I'll just share something that I thought of.

Lenny：有趣的是，我相信你会遇到这个问题，我会分享一些我想到的东西。

So while I was at Airbnb, I was reading your stuff and I was like, "Who works like this?

所以当我在 Airbnb 的时候，我读了你的文章，我想，“谁这样工作？

He's talking about all these companies that are working in this strange way of just being given a roadmap." I'm like, "No way.

他谈论的是所有这些以这种奇怪的方式工作的公司，只是给出了路线图。”我想，“不可能。

This is not a thing.

这不是一回事。

What is he writing about?" And it's because I was working at a company that does things well, and I know you disagree with where things have gotten.

他在写什么？”这是因为我在一家做得很好的公司工作，我知道你不同意事情的发展方向。

But anyway, so I imagine many people listening to this are like, I don't believe this is how a lot of companies work.

但无论如何，我想很多人听到这个消息都会说，我不相信这就是很多公司的运作方式。

What are you talking about?

你在说什么？

And then I also imagine there's a large percentage of people that work at a feature factory and they're just like, no, it's fine.

然后我还想象有很大一部分人在功能工厂工作，他们就像，不，没关系。

It's not actually the way you're describing.

实际上不是你描述的那样。

So I bet this is quite frustrating for you.

所以我敢打赌这对你来说是相当令人沮丧的。

Marty Cagan: Yeah, I've experienced that 'cause I spent most of my career in that same bubble, and I was so surprised to find that people didn't work the way we did.

马蒂·凯根：是的，我经历过这种情况，因为我职业生涯的大部分时间都在同一个泡沫中度过，我很惊讶地发现人们并不像我们那样工作。

I remember when it was too, because I was a developer at the time for developer tools, and I was building tools assuming that people were building like we built.

我记得当时也是如此，因为当时我是开发人员工具的开发人员，并且我在构建工具时假设人们正在像我们一样构建。

And then I was sent out, I remember because one of the most eye-opening visits was my very first visit to Walmart's headquarters.

然后我就被派出去了，我记得因为最令人大开眼界的访问之一是我第一次访问沃尔玛总部。

And they were doing things so differently.

他们做事的方式如此不同。

They had just very different way of working, very different equipment, just everything.

他们只是有非常不同的工作方式，非常不同的设备，一切都不同。

And it was a wake-up call.

这敲响了警钟。

It was like, you know what?

就像，你知道吗？

I'm living in a bubble.

我生活在泡沫中。

Silicon Valley is not like most of the world here.

硅谷与世界上大多数地方不同。

And of course I realized that why not?

当然我意识到为什么不呢？

Why don't companies in Arkansas and India and everywhere else have the access to the same methods and tools and techniques?

为什么阿肯色州和印度以及其他地方的公司无法获得相同的方法、工具和技术？

And so that became the inspiration for Silicon Valley Product Group, was to spread those things.

因此，传播这些东西就成为了硅谷产品集团的灵感来源。

Marty Cagan: But I've had that exact conversation.

马蒂·凯根：但我确实有过这样的谈话。

I remember as you're saying it, the first time Shreyas Doshi told me the same thing.

我记得正如你所说，Shreyas Doshi 第一次告诉我同样的事情。

He was asking me, 'cause he had known me, and I'm like, "I know you write about this stuff, but I really can't believe people are doing this." And I'm like, "Shreyas, I wish it wasn't true." But he doesn't doubt it today.

他问我，因为他认识我，我说，“我知道你写过这些东西，但我真的不敢相信人们会这样做。”我说，“Shreyas，我希望这不是真的。”但今天他并不怀疑这一点。

Lenny: Yeah, 'cause he is doing a lot of that work now too.

莱尼：是的，因为他现在也做了很多这样的工作。

I'm curious if it's okay for people to be on a feature team and just stick with it and be happy.

我很好奇人们是否可以加入一个功能团队并坚持下去并感到高兴。

There's actually this LinkedIn post today by this PM, Ben Erez who talks about how if there's a B2B sales driven company, maybe it's okay for it to be feature factory where people know exactly what you need to build.

实际上，今天这位 PM Ben Erez 在 LinkedIn 上发表了一篇文章，他谈到了如果有一家 B2B 销售驱动的公司，也许它可以成为功能工厂，让人们确切地知道你需要构建什么。

You build these things, it's fine.

你建造这些东西，就很好。

We don't need you to inform our outcomes.

我们不需要您告知我们的结果。

Thoughts on that?

对此有何想法？

Is it ever okay to just be like, it's fine?

就这样说“没关系”可以吗？

Marty Cagan: Well, my first answer is this is not an accident why most B2B software is such crap.

Marty Cagan：嗯，我的第一个答案是，这并非偶然，为什么大多数 B2B 软件都是如此垃圾。

It is horrible.

这太可怕了。

And of course, the ones that really stand out, they usually are not this way.

当然，那些真正脱颖而出的人通常不是这样的。

So sales driven product, don't get me wrong.

所以销售驱动的产品，不要误会我的意思。

There's companies like Oracle that are massively valuable, driven with sales driven product, but do you really want to be Oracle or do you want to be SAP?

像 Oracle 这样的公司非常有价值，由销售驱动的产品驱动，但你真的想成为 Oracle 还是 SAP？

Does anybody like those products out there?

有人喜欢那里的产品吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I'm not sure I've ever met anybody that didn't hate those products.

我不确定我是否遇到过不讨厌这些产品的人。

So no, I'd say that's just bad product.

所以不，我想说这只是糟糕的产品。

Now, I would argue that some of my favorite examples...

现在，我想说一些我最喜欢的例子......

In fact, in the new book we highlighted a classic sales driven financial services company moving to the product model and how it dramatically improved things for the sales organization.

事实上，在新书中，我们重点介绍了一家经典的销售驱动型金融服务公司转向产品模型，以及它如何显着改善销售组织的情况。

Marty Cagan: So there's a bigger reason I think so many sales driven companies exist, is that most of the time in those companies, the CEOs are not product people and that's why they run that way.

马蒂·凯根：所以我认为存在这么多销售驱动型公司的一个更大的原因是，在这些公司中，大多数时候，首席执行官不是产品人员，这就是他们以这种方式运作的原因。

And until and unless the CEO decides this is not very good, usually because some good product company comes along and takes away their customers, that's probably not going to change.

除非首席执行官认为这不是很好，通常是因为一些优秀的产品公司出现并夺走了他们的客户，否则这种情况可能不会改变。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So your feedback there essentially is sure you can operate this way.

所以你的反馈基本上可以肯定你可以这样操作。

You're not actually going to build a great product and long term you're going to run into competition ?

你实际上不会打造出一款出色的产品，从长远来看你会遇到竞争吗？

Marty Cagan: The other thing I'd argue, Lenny, is an empowered product team can do everything a feature team can do and more.

Marty Cagan：Lenny，我想说的另一件事是，授权的产品团队可以做功能团队​​可以做的所有事情，甚至更多。

And once in a while I do hear somebody say, why isn't it good enough to be a feature team?

有时我确实听到有人说，为什么成为一个功能团队还不够好呢？

How do you answer that really?

你真的如何回答这个问题？

To me, it is like, why are you in this business?

对我来说，这就像，你为什么从事这个行业？

Do you really not care what your customers think about your product?

您真的不关心客户对您产品的看法吗？

Seriously?

严重地？

I know I would never hire you if I had any say because that's one of the first things we want.

我知道如果我有发言权的话我永远不会雇用你，因为这是我们首先想要的事情之一。

We want people to genuinely care about our customers and about our business and making lives better for them.

我们希望人们真正关心我们的客户和我们的业务，并让他们的生活更美好。

So I don't have a lot of sympathy for those people.

所以我对那些人没有太多同情心。

I do know that there's plenty of resources for them, so they're fine.

我确实知道他们有足够的资源，所以他们很好。

It's the people that really want to do better than that.

真正想要做得更好的是人们。

Lenny: Reminds me of something your colleague Christian said on our podcast episode of how lucky are we to get to solve people's problems and help them?

莱尼：让我想起你的同事克里斯蒂安在我们的播客节目中所说的话，我们有多么幸运能够解决人们的问题并帮助他们？

Marty Cagan: Christian is a living example of what we're talking about.

马蒂·凯根：克里斯蒂安就是我们正在谈论的一个活生生的例子。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

He lives for these opportunities.

他为这些机会而活。

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莱尼：这一集是万塔给你带来的。

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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

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访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Lenny: I want to touch on something.

莱尼：我想谈一谈。

So I interviewed the CTO of Meta, and you made this really interesting point.

所以我采访了 Meta 的 CTO，你提出了这个非常有趣的观点。

So when I think of Meta/Facebook, I always imagine them as a very bottom-up culture.

所以当我想到 Meta/Facebook 时，我总是把它们想象成一种非常自下而上的文化。

People on teams build experiments, run things.

团队中的人们进行实验、运行事物。

There's not a lot of do this, do that, but the way that he framed it is it's actually very top-down at Meta.

这样做、那样做的人并不多，但他所构建的方式实际上在 Meta 是非常自上而下的。

Zuck and the execs come up with here's what we're working on, here's our strategy, here's our big bets.

扎克和高管们提出了我们正在做的事情，这是我们的战略，这是我们的大赌注。

And so he sees it actually as a much more top-down than a bottom-up team, but it seems it comes across as bottom-up, I guess.

因此，他认为实际上这是一个自上而下的团队，而不是自下而上的团队，但我猜，它似乎是自下而上的。

I know there's a difference between bottom-up versus top-down versus featured factory and empowered product team.

我知道自下而上与自上而下与特色工厂和授权产品团队之间存在差异。

But I guess thoughts on that?

但我想对此有何想法？

Marty Cagan: So first of all, I would argue what he described is exactly what I see in good product companies, exactly.

马蒂·凯根：首先，我认为他所描述的正是我在优秀产品公司中所看到的。

But we don't frame it as top-down.

但我们不会将其视为自上而下的。

Top-down is really means something very different.

自上而下确实意味着非常不同的东西。

In fact, handing a team a roadmap of features, that's very top-down.

事实上，向团队提供功能路线图是非常自上而下的。

Another very common misunderstanding, which comes, again, a lot of the agile coaches, they have misguided so many organizations, but product teams don't do product strategy.

另一个非常常见的误解，同样是很多敏捷教练的误解，他们误导了很多组织，但产品团队并不制定产品策略。

Product leaders do product strategy.

产品领导者制定产品策略。

They need to do the product strategy.

他们需要制定产品策略。

And look, I'm not the biggest fan of Meta, but Zuck is very good at product, very good.

看，我不是 Meta 的最大粉丝，但 Zuck 非常擅长产品，非常好。

That's the problem in the world.

这就是世界的问题。

He's so good at it.

他太擅长了。

But that is the job, is to make these strategic decisions, the focus decisions, the bets you're going to place.

但这就是工作，就是做出这些战略决策、重点决策、你要下的赌注。

But then in a good organization, you give those bets to the teams and you really do give them latitude to figure it out.

但在一个好的组织中，你把这些赌注交给团队，你确实给了他们解决问题的自由度。

Marty Cagan: And honestly, it's been a while since I worked with Facebook at the time, but they had very good teams, very good product teams, serious cross-functional, serious engineers, serious product managers and designers, and they could solve very hard problems and that is what made them good.

Marty Cagan：老实说，我当时已经有一段时间没有与 Facebook 合作了，但他们拥有非常好的团队、非常好的产品团队、认真的跨职能团队、认真的工程师、认真的产品经理和设计师，他们可以解决非常困难的问题，这就是他们的优秀之处。

So I don't frame that as top-down.

所以我不会将其视为自上而下的。

I frame that as product leaders doing their job and product teams doing their job.

我将其定义为产品领导者做好他们的工作，产品团队做好他们的工作。

It's a very common misunderstanding that many people have about what empowerment even means.

许多人对授权的含义存在一个非常常见的误解。

Empowerment does not mean you set up this product team and they go decide what to work on.

授权并不意味着你建立了这个产品团队，然后他们来决定做什么。

No, that would just be anarchy, right?

不，那只会是无政府状态，对吧？

You'd have 50 teams doing 50 things.

你会有 50 个团队做 50 件事。

Instead, empowerment means the leaders do their job, come up with the bets, and then the teams are able to figure out the best way to solve those problems.

相反，授权意味着领导者做好他们的工作，提出赌注，然后团队才能找到解决这些问题的最佳方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's a great clarification.

这是一个很好的澄清。

I think a lot of people don't totally get that.

我想很多人并不完全明白这一点。

So this is actually really helpful, I think, for a lot of people.

所以我认为这对很多人来说实际上非常有帮助。

Speaking of Meta, there's another product leader at Meta.

说到Meta，Meta还有另一位产品负责人。

He was actually one of the former guests and actually also one of the most popular episodes, Nikhyl Singhal.

他实际上是前嘉宾之一，实际上也是最受欢迎的剧集之一，Nikhyl Singhal。

And he works with a lot of CPOs and heads of product at companies.

他与许多公司的 CPO 和产品主管一起工作。

The way he described it, he's noticed there's this reboot in what the PM role has been over the past couple of years because of the end of the era.

按照他的描述，他注意到，由于时代的结束，过去几年总理的角色出现了重新启动。

So the way he sees it is for the past decade, PMs are mostly responsible as growth people.

因此，在他看来，在过去的十年里，产品经理主要是作为增长人员来负责的。

They're growing existing products, they have product market fit or they think they do and they're just optimizing, scaling.

他们正在开发现有产品，他们有适合市场的产品，或者他们认为他们有，他们只是在优化和扩展。

And now that the money has gone away, there's a return to building, finding product-market fit validation and discovery.

现在资金已经消失，人们又开始重新构建、寻找产品与市场的契合度验证和发现。

I'm curious if you see that.

我很好奇你是否看到了。

Do you see a shift in what PMs should be doing in the last couple of years post ?

您认为过去几年 PM 应该做什么发生了变化吗？

Marty Cagan: So yes and no. I think he's right in general, but there's a really important nuance.

马蒂·凯根：所以是和否。我认为他总体上是对的，但有一个非常重要的细微差别。

Many teams that aren't very good yet, they do exactly what he described.

许多还不是很好的团队，他们正是按照他所描述的那样做的。

He describes as a gross hacking, I describe it as optimization.

他将其描述为严重的黑客攻击，我将其描述为优化。

All they're doing is these low risk simple experiments.

他们所做的只是这些低风险的简单实验。

They live behind the AB test of just doing like, we're going to change the call to action here and maybe more people will register, that kind of test.

他们生活在 AB 测试的背后，我们将改变这里的行动号召，也许会有更多的人注册，这样的测试。

Should they do that?

他们应该这样做吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Is that product really?

那个产品真的是吗？

Not really.

并不真地。

That's not discovery, that's optimization.

这不是发现，而是优化。

Now, in many companies they do that because they're given a roadmap of all the features.

现在，在许多公司中，他们这样做是因为他们获得了所有功能的路线图。

So all they can really fit in are these little optimization tests.

所以他们真正能适应的就是这些小的优化测试。

But in others, they're scared to do anything else.

但在其他人中，他们害怕做其他事情。

They literally don't want to break it.

他们确实不想打破它。

And so I find that situation that he described in many companies that need to transform.

所以我发现很多公司都存在他所描述的这种情况，需要转型。

Marty Cagan: So I would argue what he's probably seeing mostly is a team that's learning how to go from a feature team to a product team.

Marty Cagan：所以我认为他最可能看到的是一个正在学习如何从功能团队转变为产品团队的团队。

Now, has that happened more in the last two years?

现在，过去两年发生了更多这样的事情吗？

I would like to believe so, but I don't know.

我愿意相信是这样，但我不知道。

Some days I feel like yes, he's right.

有时我觉得是的，他是对的。

Some days I feel like I don't know who he's talking to because these people are still stuck doing optimization work.

有时我觉得我不知道他在和谁说话，因为这些人仍然在做优化工作。

And so there's probably a lot of nuance there.

所以那里可能有很多细微差别。

In general, I think yes, but I don't think it's tied to interest rates.

总的来说，我认为是的，但我认为这与利率无关。

I don't think it's tied to that.

我认为这与此无关。

I think it's more tied to the quality of the leadership and the need of the business to do more than optimization.

我认为这与领导层的素质和企业需要做的不仅仅是优化更相关。

Lenny: I know people ask you this all the time, but I'm curious, is there anything big you're seeing change in the PM role broadly?

Lenny：我知道人们总是问你这个问题，但我很好奇，你认为 PM 角色有什么大的变化吗？

Marty Cagan: We've talked about quite a few big dynamics that are changing.

马蒂·凯根：我们已经讨论了很多正在发生变化的重大动态。

Interestingly, what we're really been talking about is the different definitions of the PM role.

有趣的是，我们真正讨论的是 PM 角色的不同定义。

And so if we hold one of those definitions constant, let's say we are focused now on the empowered product manager, the one you and I grew up with, and those are the ones that are responsible for value and viability.

因此，如果我们保持其中一个定义不变，那么假设我们现在关注的是授权产品经理，即与你和我一起成长的产品经理，以及那些对价值和生存能力负责的人。

In general, I think the principles are stable and I think they will remain stable.

总的来说，我认为原则是稳定的，而且我认为它们将保持稳定。

However, the techniques are undergoing some radical changes, especially with generative AI.

然而，这些技术正在发生一些根本性的变化，尤其是生成式人工智能。

Don't get me wrong, I've been living this every day as most of us have.

别误会我的意思，我和我们大多数人一样每天都过着这样的生活。

I don't have it figured out.

我还没有弄清楚。

In fact, I recently changed my advice because I used to say, start with ChatGPT, go from there and I'll help you make that great.

事实上，我最近改变了我的建议，因为我曾经说过，从 ChatGPT 开始，从那里开始，我将帮助您实现这一目标。

We'll go from there.

我们将从那里出发。

Marty Cagan: And what I kept seeing was people taking what they get too literally, too seriously, too much value, and they were heading off in a wrong direction and then they were optimizing that.

马蒂·凯根：我一直看到人们把他们得到的东西看得太字面意义、太认真、太有价值，他们朝着错误的方向前进，然后他们正在优化它。

There's a lot going on right now.

现在发生了很多事情。

It's a moving target.

这是一个移动的目标。

Depends which system you're using and the day of the week now on what you're at, but whatever.

取决于您使用的系统以及一周中的哪一天取决于您所在的位置，但无论如何。

Now I've been recommending to people that they think through the answer first.

现在我一直建议人们首先思考答案。

Really get them to think, put something down, then use ChatGPT to see if you can't improve on that, to see if you can't challenge that, to see if you can't make your argument tighter.

真正让他们思考，写下一些东西，然后使用 ChatGPT 看看你是否不能改进它，看看你是否不能挑战它，看看你是否不能让你的论点更严格。

So I've reversed and I did that because people are trusting the results too much.

所以我改变了做法，因为人们太相信结果了。

Lenny: And when you talk about what they start with, is it like, here's a strategy I'm thinking for this product, or is it like a PRD

Lenny：当你谈论他们从什么开始时，是不是，这是我正在为这个产品考虑的策略，还是像 PRD？

Marty Cagan: Yeah, certainly you can use it for a spec, a PRD.

Marty Cagan：是的，当然你可以将它用于规范、PRD。

You can certainly use it for strategy.

您当然可以将其用于策略。

You can certainly use it for even things like triaging bugs.

您当然可以将它用于诸如分类错误之类的事情。

It's hard to think of something you can't use it for.

很难想象有什么东西是你不能用它来实现的。

The harder question is what is it good for?

更难的问题是它有什么好处？

Lenny: Something along those lines I wanted to chat about.

莱尼：我想聊聊类似的事情。

Something I've been thinking about.

我一直在想一件事。

I want to write a post about this, is which skills of a product manager will be most disrupted by AI?

我想写一篇关于这个的文章，产品经理的哪些技能最容易被人工智能颠覆？

So I think short term, there's communication is getting improved.

所以我认为短期内，沟通正在得到改善。

You can improve your writing strategy.

您可以改进您的写作策略。

Maybe like here's my strategy, give me some feedback.

也许这就是我的策略，请给我一些反馈。

So I think things are being optimized a bit through ChatGPT and tools like that.

所以我认为通过 ChatGPT 和类似的工具正在对事情进行一些优化。

But in the five or 10 years, are there any skills that will potentially go away or 95% of it will be done by AI?

但在五年或十年内，有哪些技能可能会消失，或者 95% 的技能将由人工智能完成？

And if so, where do you see most of that change happening in the skillsets?

如果是这样，您认为技能组的大部分变化发生在哪里？

Marty Cagan: Absolutely.

马蒂·凯根：当然。

And I think that is happening more on the engineering side right now and also on the design side, but I fully expect it will happen.

我认为这种情况现在在工程方面和设计方面都在发生，但我完全预计它会发生。

Like I said at the beginning, I don't know when really because that timing is hard question, but this is another one of my arguments to people of why you need to uplevel your skills.

就像我一开始说的那样，我不知道真正的时间是什么时候，因为这个时机是一个很难回答的问题，但这是我向人们解释为什么你需要提高技能的另一个论点。

If you are fundamentally a backlog administrator, good luck protecting that because already people are doing that.

如果您本质上是积压管理员，那么祝您好运，因为人们已经在这样做了。

It's only a matter of time before that becomes pretty well-supported.

得到很好的支持只是时间问题。

That is not a good job prospect.

这不是一个好的工作前景。

Now, then we can talk about a feature team, project manager.

现在，我们可以谈谈功能团队、项目经理。

There's very little that's going on in there that is truly value add.

那里发生的事情很少有真正的增值。

Most of these are administrative kinds of things that can be done at least significantly with help.

其中大部分都是行政类的事情，在帮助下至少可以显着地完成。

So I wouldn't feel confident if I was a feature team product manager that I could keep doing this for any amount of years at least.

因此，如果我是一名功能团队产品经理，我不会有信心至少可以继续这样做多年。

Marty Cagan: Now, for an empowered product manager, if your responsibility is value and viability, if you boil it down, that's the real challenge left with ChatGPT or GenAI, is viability becomes even more the important question.

Marty Cagan：现在，对于一个被授权的产品经理来说，如果你的责任是价值和生存能力，如果你把它归结起来，那就是 ChatGPT 或 GenAI 留下的真正挑战，生存能力变得更加重要的问题。

There's some very hard things left.

还有一些非常困难的事情。

So designers, I think the real product designers at the top of the chain, they're going to be incredibly important and of course tech leads are going to be incredibly important more than ever.

所以设计师，我认为真正的产品设计师处于链条的顶端，他们将变得非常重要，当然技术主管也将比以往任何时候都更加重要。

But for a product manager, especially with viability, I've been on so many of these calls where we've been talking about the implications of probabilistic software versus deterministic software and what is okay?

但对于产品经理来说，尤其是在可行性方面，我参加过很多这样的电话会议，我们一直在讨论概率性软件与确定性软件的含义以及什么是可以的？

The lawyers are weighing in already with the legal perspective, but also ethical perspective and just if this is mission critical, is this something that we could be okay with having a probabilistic answer?

律师们已经从法律角度和道德角度进行了权衡，如果这是关键任务，我们是否可以接受概率答案？

Marty Cagan: We don't know, trying to figure that out.

马蒂·凯根：我们不知道，正在试图弄清楚这一点。

So what is that really?

那到底是什么？

That's a viability and a value question.

这是一个生存能力和价值问题。

So a lot more is landing squarely on the product manager than I think in general in the past.

因此，与我过去普遍认为的相比，更多的事情直接落在产品经理身上。

Lenny: Can you talk about viability, just so people know what you mean when you say that?

莱尼：你能谈谈生存能力吗，这样人们就知道你说的是什么意思？

What's the one sentence definition of what viability means?

生存能力的一句话定义是什么？

Marty Cagan: So value means for the customer, viability means for your business.

马蒂·凯根：因此，价值对于客户而言意味着，生存能力对于您的业务而言意味着。

So that means it works for your business.

这意味着它适合您的业务。

You can sell it, market it.

你可以卖掉它，推销它。

It's legal, you can service it.

这是合法的，可以维修。

It's compliance.

这是合规性。

All of these constraints.

所有这些限制。

Remember Airbnb, it wasn't so hard to get people to sign up.

记住 Airbnb，让人们注册并不难。

It was hard to make listings legal in San Francisco.

在旧金山让上市合法化很难。

That's the hard part, is the compliance side.

这是最困难的部分，即合规性方面。

Lenny: I want to talk about your book.

莱尼：我想谈谈你的书。

Is there anything else along these lines before we get into your book that you thought would be interesting to touch on or share?

在我们进入你的书中之前，还有什么其他你认为值得探讨或分享的内容吗？

Marty Cagan: I think that's good.

马蒂·凯根：我认为这很好。

We covered a lot.

我们涵盖了很多。

We covered a lot.

我们涵盖了很多。

Lenny: We did.

莱尼：我们做到了。

I imagine we covered some of the elements of your book, but let's talk about the book.

我想我们已经介绍了您书中的一些内容，但我们来谈谈这本书吧。

So this is your third book, is that right?

这是你的第三本书，对吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What made you decide to write another book and add an addition to the Marty Cagan cannon and what is it about?

是什么让您决定再写一本书并在马蒂·凯根大炮上添加一个内容？它是关于什么的？

Marty Cagan: This is a different one though.

马蒂·凯根：不过这是另一回事。

It's different kind because INSPIRED, hopefully you know, is for product teams and product managers.

这是不同的类型，因为希望你知道，INSPIRED 是针对产品团队和产品经理的。

It's really a book about product discovery.

这确实是一本关于产品发现的书。

And then EMPOWER is really about product leadership, vision strategy, team topology, coaching.

EMPOWER 真正涉及的是产品领导力、愿景战略、团队拓扑和辅导。

It's all about that.

就是这样。

And that was the original idea.

这就是最初的想法。

We would share those techniques 'cause that's what we share.

我们会分享这些技术，因为这就是我们所分享的。

But the single most common question we got honestly from the first edition of INSPIRED was that people would read the book and they would say, I love this, I want to do this.

但我们从《INSPIRED》第一版中诚实地得到的一个最常见的问题是，人们读这本书后会说，我喜欢这本书，我想这样做。

But have you ever seen our company?

但你见过我们公司吗？

We are so far away from that.

我们离那还很远。

We are like night and day.

我们就像白天和黑夜。

And in fact, a lot of people would tell me point blank, there's no way their company's going to go along with this.

事实上，很多人会直截了当地告诉我，他们的公司不可能同意这种做法。

And so what they were asking was, how in the world do you transform to work like this?

所以他们问的是，你究竟如何转变为这样的工作方式？

Marty Cagan: And we've been getting that question for years now.

马蒂·凯根：多年来我们一直收到这个问题。

That's really what my partners, Christian, Jonathan, Christopher, Leah, that's what they do is they help companies to transform.

这确实是我的合作伙伴克里斯蒂安、乔纳森、克里斯托弗、利亚所做的，他们所做的就是帮助公司转型。

That's what we've been doing.

这就是我们一直在做的事情。

But we do that on a one-off basis.

但我们是一次性这样做的。

There's only five of us.

我们只有五个人。

How many companies could we possibly work with?

我们可以与多少家公司合作？

So we realized that this question was a global question.

所以我们意识到这个问题是一个全球性问题。

And if we've written books that explain, maybe you want to work this way, but we don't address how to change to work this way, that's leaving people without that hard part.

如果我们写的书解释了，也许你想以这种方式工作，但我们没有解决如何改变以这种方式工作，那就让人们没有了那个困难的部分。

So the goal of TRANSFORMED, unlike the other books, was to share how to actually change.

因此，与其他书籍不同，《TRANSFORMED》的目标是分享如何真正改变。

There are techniques in TRANSFORMED as well, but there are transformation techniques.

TRANSFORMED 中也有技术，但有转换技术。

There are change techniques like the use of pilot teams or spreading things out to divide and conquer on some of the transformation work.

有一些变革技术，例如使用试点团队或分散事物来分而治之，以完成某些转型工作。

Marty Cagan: So the other thing we wanted to do, in fact, we made a rule for ourselves.

马蒂·凯根：事实上，我们想做的另一件事是为自己制定了规则。

We knew we needed lots of examples, case studies, but we said it's too easy to include Silicon Valley companies because Airbnb was born in this model.

我们知道我们需要大量的例子和案例研究，但我们说把硅谷公司纳入其中太容易了，因为 Airbnb 就是在这种模式下诞生的。

They were designers, but still they were a Silicon Valley company.

他们是设计师，但他们仍然是一家硅谷公司。

It was a big advantage for Airbnb over say your favorite bank or whatever that was not born in this way of working.

与你最喜欢的银行或任何不是以这种工作方式诞生的银行相比，这对 Airbnb 来说是一个很大的优势。

So we said all our examples are going to be from outside Silicon Valley world.

所以我们说我们所有的例子都将来自硅谷之外的世界。

They're all companies, most of them pre-internet, that had to change dramatically to work this way.

他们都是公司，其中大多数是在互联网出现之前，必须进行巨大的改变才能以这种方式运作。

And not only were we going to show how they changed, but we were going to show what they were able to do when they changed, which to me is the coolest part, seeing the innovation.

我们不仅要展示他们如何改变，还要展示他们改变后能够做什么，这对我来说是最酷的部分，看到了创新。

Some of these innovations, honestly, Lenny, are as impressive as anything I've seen Amazon do and that's saying a lot.

老实说，莱尼，其中一些创新与我见过的亚马逊所做的任何事情一样令人印象深刻，这说明了很多。

Marty Cagan: Amazon in my opinion is the top of the pack and so that's impressive, what Trainline in the UK was able to do.

Marty Cagan：我认为亚马逊是其中的佼佼者，英国的 Trainline 能够做到这一点令人印象深刻。

A company I had never known before a few years ago in Saudi Arabia called Almosafer, a travel agency.

几年前，我在沙特阿拉伯有一家名为 Almosafer 的旅行社，我以前从未听说过。

They own, I forget what it is, 80 plus percent of the market over Expedia, over the big guys in the US because they actually learned this stuff and were able to do it.

他们拥有，我忘了那是什么，比 Expedia 和美国大公司 80% 以上的市场份额，因为他们实际上学到了这些东西并且能够做到这一点。

And we have a dozen examples from all over the world, Brazil, Virginia, everywhere, not Silicon Valley.

我们有十几个来自世界各地的例子，巴西、弗吉尼亚等各地，而不是硅谷。

In healthcare and car sales and fitness, all over the place.

在医疗保健、汽车销售和健身领域，无处不在。

Honestly there was a few reasons.

老实说，有几个原因。

One is we wanted them to understand what it really means to move to this way of working.

一是我们希望他们了解转向这种工作方式的真正含义。

No fluff, just what does it really mean?

没有废话，这到底意味着什么？

Otherwise, how are they going to get there if they don't even know where there is?

不然的话，他们连那里都不知道，怎么去那里呢？

Then we wanted them to believe it's possible to transform.

然后我们希望他们相信变革是可能的。

We're the first ones to say it's not easy, but we wanted them to believe it's possible.

我们是第一个说这并不容易的人，但我们希望他们相信这是可能的。

Marty Cagan: And the third thing is we wanted to get them excited about what they'd be able to do after they transformed.

马蒂·凯根：第三件事是我们想让他们对转型后能够做的事情感到兴奋。

And those were the three things we were trying to do in the book.

这就是我们在书中试图做的三件事。

And so that's different than our other books, but hopefully it makes the other books more accessible.

这与我们的其他书籍有所不同，但希望它能让其他书籍更容易理解。

They'll be able to apply more of them.

他们将能够应用更多。

Lenny: Who would you say this is most suited for?

Lenny：你认为这最适合谁？

Is it leaders at companies?

是公司的领导吗？

Is it ICPMs, everybody?

大家是 ICPM 吗？

Who do you think would get the most out of this?

您认为谁会从中获益最多？

Marty Cagan: We wrote it intentionally, again, unlike the other books.

马蒂·凯根：我们是故意写的，这与其他书不同。

The other books are written for people like us and your audience and my audience.

其他书是为像我们这样的人以及你的观众和我的观众而写的。

They're product people.

他们是产品人。

These are written for non-product people too.

这些也是为非产品人员编写的。

And so the idea is a CEO, a CFO, a head of sale.

所以这个想法是首席执行官、首席财务官、销售主管。

Anybody who cares about their company changing how they build and wants to help is written for them.

任何关心公司改变其构建方式并希望提供帮助的人都是为他们而写的。

So that was one of the hardest parts really, including those kinds of reviewers and making sure all this stuff made sense to them.

所以这确实是最困难的部分之一，包括那些类型的审稿人并确保所有这些东西对他们来说有意义。

Lenny: So basically if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm working on these teams Marty's describing, I don't think this is optimal.

莱尼：所以基本上，如果您正在听这个并且您会想，我正在马蒂描述的这些团队中工作，我认为这不是最佳选择。

We can do a lot better.

我们可以做得更好。

We can get a lot more on out feature team, hand this book to your CEO essentially?

我们可以从功能团队获得更多信息，基本上将这本书交给您的首席执行官吗？

Marty Cagan: And I'd suggest they read it themselves so they know.

马蒂·凯根：我建议他们自己读一下，这样他们就知道了。

Because I know I'm going to be talking more about this going forward because I know I need to.

因为我知道我接下来会更多地谈论这个问题，因为我知道我需要这样做。

Too many people in our industry view themselves as a victim of their company.

我们行业中有太多人将自己视为公司的受害者。

They're stuck in a feature team and there's nothing they can do about it other than quit.

他们被困在一个功能团队中，除了退出之外他们无能为力。

But really they have a family, they're not going to quit.

但他们确实有家庭，他们不会放弃。

So I think that's not true.

所以我认为这不是真的。

I think there is so much they can do and hopefully they can see that in the book.

我认为他们可以做很多事情，希望他们能在书中看到这些。

It's like they can see what they individually can do to push their company in this direction, and at a minimum it'll help their career.

就好像他们可以看到自己可以做些什么来推动公司朝这个方向发展，至少这会对他们的职业生涯有所帮助。

Lenny: I always love just the message of empowerment and giving people motivation to you can actually make change.

莱尼：我一直很喜欢“赋权”的信息，给人们动力实际上可以带来改变。

You're not stuck in this way of working, and I know you do that a lot.

你不会陷入这种工作方式，而且我知道你经常这样做。

The official title of the book, so it's TRANSFORMED: Moving to the Product Operating Model.

这本书的正式标题是“转变：转向产品运营模型”。

What do you mean when you...

当你...时你是什么意思？

There it is.

就在那里。

I don't have my copy yet 'cause that hasn't come out in the US yet, otherwise, I'd have it here on my side as well.

我还没有我的副本，因为它还没有在美国上市，否则我也会把它放在我身边。

There it is.

就在那里。

It's a beautiful green color by the way.

顺便说一句，这是一种美丽的绿色。

It goes nicely with the other colors.

它与其他颜色很相配。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Beautiful design, whoever did that.

漂亮的设计，不管是谁做的。

Okay, so the part of the title is Moving to the Product Operating Model.

好的，标题的一部分是转向产品运营模型。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Marty Cagan: That was the biggest pain for the book was...

马蒂·凯根：这本书最大的痛苦是......

'Cause honestly, I had dodged that question for 20 years.

因为说实话，我已经回避这个问题 20 年了。

If you look at any of my writing before starting on this book, I just said, "Look, do you want to work like the best or do you want to work like the rest?" That's how we referred to it, the best versus the rest because there is no word, there is no name that talks about the common principles with all the best companies.

如果你在开始写这本书之前看过我的任何作品，我只是说，“看，你想像最好的人一样工作，还是想像其他人一样工作？”这就是我们提到它的方式，最好的与其他的，因为没有任何词，没有名字来谈论所有最好的公司的共同原则。

So we would just say, do you want to work like the best or not?

所以我们只想问，你想不想以最好的方式工作？

But when I started to write the book, I'm like, okay, I can't just say work like the best.

但当我开始写这本书时，我想，好吧，我不能只是说工作是最好的。

We have to have some name for this, but I don't know if you've come across this Lenny, but you don't want to coin a new term if you can avoid it.

我们必须为此起个名字，但我不知道你是否遇到过这个莱尼，但如果你能避免的话，你不想创造一个新术语。

Marty Cagan: It is really painful to try to develop a new term.

Marty Cagan：尝试开发一个新术语确实很痛苦。

Some of the companies we worked with use the term product operating model and don't get me wrong, that's not the only term.

我们合作的一些公司使用“产品运营模式”一词，请不要误会我的意思，这不是唯一的术语。

Some people use the term product led company or product driven company, but those two we just don't like because it gives all the wrong message and the rest of the company thinks it's a power grab.

有些人使用“产品主导的公司”或“产品驱动的公司”一词，但这两个我们就是不喜欢，因为它给出了所有错误的信息，而公司的其他人认为这是一种权力攫取。

So we wanted to avoid those words.

所以我们想避免使用这些词。

We like product operating model for a couple reasons.

我们喜欢产品运营模式有几个原因。

One is it's a model, it's a conceptual model.

一是它是一个模型，它是一个概念模型。

It's not a process.

这不是一个过程。

It's not really a thing, it's more of a set of principles and also it's non-threatening to a lot of people.

这并不是一个真正的东西，它更像是一套原则，而且对很多人来说没有威胁。

It's just saying, "Look, this is how these companies operate.

它只是说，“看，这就是这些公司的运作方式。

You can look at it and decide if you think it's good for you too." So we adopted that term, we call it product model for short.

你可以看看它，然后决定你是否认为它也对你有好处。”所以我们采用了这个术语，简称为产品模型。

And all it really is it boils down to a set of 20 principles and those 20 principles are what we find.

事实上，它可以归结为 20 条原则，而这 20 条原则正是我们所发现的。

Marty Cagan: Remember we started with this.

马蒂·凯根：记住我们是从这个开始的。

I was explaining, when I listen to your guests, I'm listening for what's special about each of their companies, but what I'm looking for is the commonality.

我解释说，当我听你们的客人讲话时，我正在倾听他们每家公司的特殊之处，但我正在寻找的是共性。

'Cause most of the time when I see a successful company, they are living these principles.

因为大多数时候，当我看到一家成功的公司时，他们都在践行这些原则。

Principles like you have to experiment.

原理就像你必须去实验。

You have to embrace experimentation.

你必须拥抱实验。

If you don't do that, most of this is not possible.

如果你不这样做，大部分都是不可能的。

Or you have to make sure that everything you release is instrumented so that we can prove the outcome.

或者您必须确保您发布的所有内容都经过检测，以便我们可以证明结果。

Stuff like that, that there's a million different methodologies and frameworks and tools and processes, but matters is those principles.

像这样的事情，有一百万种不同的方法、框架、工具和流程，但重要的是这些原则。

And so that's what we mean by that product operating model.

这就是我们所说的产品运营模式的含义。

There's at a high level we talk about it, is how you decide what you're going to work on?

我们在高层讨论的是，你如何决定要做什么？

How you decide which problems to solve?

您如何决定要解决哪些问题？

Marty Cagan: That's what most companies do in annual planning, but it's basically the product strategy.

马蒂·凯根：这是大多数公司在年度规划中所做的事情，但这基本上是产品策略。

That's what your Meta friend was describing that the leaders do.

这就是你的元朋友所描述的领导者所做的事情。

That's their job.

那是他们的工作。

The second is how do they solve problems?

第二个是他们如何解决问题？

Do they have the skills to do product discovery like we're talking about?

他们是否具备像我们所说的那样进行产品发现的技能？

How to actually come up with good solutions that work for the customer and work for the business.

如何真正提出对客户和企业都有效的良好解决方案。

That's the second big dimension of the product model.

这是产品模型的第二个大维度。

And the third big dimension is how do they actually build, test and deploy product to their customers?

第三个大维度是他们如何实际构建、测试和部署产品给客户？

Do they do it in a way that is reliable, that is demonstrable where you can show that this generates the outcomes that you need?

他们的做法是否可靠、可证明，您可以证明这会产生您需要的结果？

Those are the three big areas.

这是三大领域。

And then there's a number of competencies.

然后还有很多能力。

There's four new competencies that most companies don't have, but what makes it tricky is they have people with those titles, but they don't have people with those jobs.

大多数公司都不具备四种新能力，但棘手的是，他们拥有拥有这些头衔的人员，但没有拥有这些职位的人员。

The one we've been talking about is product manager.

我们一直在谈论的就是产品经理。

Lenny: What would be most interesting to share?

莱尼：最值得分享的是什么？

You said there's 20 attributes of a power product team.

您说电力产品团队有 20 个属性。

Lenny: 20 principles.

莱尼：20 条原则。

I'm so curious what these are, but I know we don't have time to go through them all.

我很好奇这些是什么，但我知道我们没有时间把它们全部看完。

Can you either share a few of those?

您能分享其中一些吗？

You shared experimentation as one, or these four what you just mentioned.

您作为其中之一分享了实验，或者您刚才提到的这四种实验。

I'm just curious what these

我只是好奇这些是什么

Marty Cagan: Well, I could share as much as you want, but the four competencies are product manager.

Marty Cagan：嗯，我可以随心所欲地分享，但这四种能力是产品经理。

Again, we're talking a serious product manager here, not a product owner, not a feature team product manager.

再说一次，我们在这里谈论的是一个严肃的产品经理，而不是产品负责人，也不是功能团队产品经理。

Product manager, real product designer, service design, interaction design, visual design, user research, real product designer, a real tech lead, and then a real product leader, a manager of product design engineering that knows how to coach their people and knows how to do a real product strategy, which is what we were talking about.

产品经理、真正的产品设计师、服务设计、交互设计、视觉设计、用户研究、真正的产品设计师、真正的技术主管，然后是真正的产品领导者、产品设计工程经理，知道如何指导员工并知道如何制定真正的产品策略，这就是我们所讨论的。

So those are the four new competencies.

这就是四种新能力。

For most companies, those are new, meaning they might have people with those names, but they don't have those roles institutionalized.

对于大多数公司来说，这些都是新的，这意味着他们可能有具有这些名字的人员，但他们没有将这些角色制度化。

Lenny: It's interesting, you're building on the classic triad with this leader above.

莱尼：很有趣，你正在与上面这位领导者建立经典的三合会。

It's like the stool with something on the stool or something or filling up the stool.

就像凳子上有东西或者东西或者填满凳子一样。

Marty Cagan: And that is the triad.

马蒂·凯根：这就是三合会。

That's where it came from.

这就是它的来源。

The word triad came from those three.

三合会这个词就是从这三个人而来的。

We didn't invent that.

那不是我们发明的。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

But I think the product leader is a really interesting addition there.

但我认为产品负责人是一个非常有趣的补充。

You can't just have this team off to the side without a product leader overseeing that work.

如果没有产品负责人监督这项工作，你就不能让这个团队袖手旁观。

Marty Cagan: That's so true because one of the things I really learned with INSPIRED was that it wasn't enough to have the teams do their job.

Marty Cagan：确实如此，因为我从 INSPIRED 中真正学到的一件事是，仅仅让团队做好他们的工作是不够的。

They needed leadership to do their job.

他们需要领导来完成他们的工作。

So it is both.

所以两者都是。

And that's why I was saying we don't frame it as top-down, bottom-up for that.

这就是为什么我说我们不会将其框架为自上而下、自下而上。

We frame it as each group doing their job.

我们将其定义为每个小组都在做自己的工作。

And when that happens, it's actually a beautiful thing.

当这种情况发生时，这实际上是一件美好的事情。

Lenny: We're going to link to a post that you wrote, Product Leadership Theater, which talks about how people do this actually badly and what it looks like when it's just pretend versus actually doing it right.

莱尼：我们将链接到您写的一篇文章《产品领导力剧场》，该文章讨论了人们实际上如何做得不好，以及假装做对与实际做得正确时的情况。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

And then what are some of these principles, just to touch on a couple and a few-

然后这些原则是什么，仅涉及几个和几个-

Marty Cagan: Just stop me, but there's a set of principles around the more cultural things, like innovation is more important than predictability.

马蒂·凯根：请阻止我，但围绕更多文化事物有一套原则，例如创新比可预测性更重要。

That's a principle.

这是一个原则。

That learning is more important than failure.

学习比失败更重要。

The principles are more important than process.

原则比过程更重要。

Some examples of that.

一些例子。

In terms of teams, empowered with problems to solve.

在团队方面，有能力解决问题。

That's one of your foundational principles.

这是你的基本原则之一。

We talked about that, this idea of real ownership, real sense of ownership so that it's theirs.

我们谈到了真正所有权的想法，真正的所有权感，因此它是他们的。

Well, of course in discovery you'd recognize all the principles, but it's about addressing product risks.

嗯，当然，在发现过程中，您会认识到所有原则，但它是关于解决产品风险的。

It's about embracing quick experimentation.

这是关于拥抱快速实验。

It's about testing ideas responsibly.

这是关于负责任地测试想法。

These are principles.

这些是原则。

And then I did mention a couple of the delivery principles, things like small frequent uncoupled releases.

然后我确实提到了一些交付原则，例如小型频繁的非耦合发布。

For most companies that's CI/CD, instrumentation of everything, monitoring of everything.

对于大多数公司来说，这就是 CI/CD、一切事物的仪表化、一切事物的监控。

These are delivery principles.

这些是交付原则。

So none of these should surprise you 'cause they are what's consistent in the good companies that we know, but these are the things that we think matter.

因此，这些都不应该让您感到惊讶，因为它们是我们所知道的优秀公司的一贯做法，但这些是我们认为重要的事情。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

And I imagine people listening to this, if they're in that 10% or 20% of companies that you describe as doing this well are just like, of course.

我想，如果你所描述的在这方面做得很好的公司中，有 10% 或 20% 的人听到了这一点，那么他们当然会这样。

And then the rest are just like, no, there's no way we're going to be able to do that.

然后其他人就说，不，我们不可能做到这一点。

Marty Cagan: You have to realize in most of the rest of the world, they release monthly or mostly quarterly.

Marty Cagan：你必须意识到，在世界其他大部分地区，他们每月或大部分每季度发布一次。

Think about that.

想想看。

Quarterly releases.

每季度发布一次。

Think about it.

想一想。

You cannot take care of your customers.

你无法照顾你的顾客。

You cannot learn at the pace you need to.

你无法按照你需要的速度学习。

By the way, quality is going to be terrible in that model.

顺便说一句，该模型的质量会很糟糕。

Lenny: I don't want to go on this tangent necessarily, but I know in some cases, like a quarterly release, like Shopify as an example, they have seasonal releases like the winter launch and the summer launch.

Lenny：我不一定想继续这个话题，但我知道在某些情况下，比如季度发布，比如 Shopify，他们有季节性发布，比如冬季发布和夏季发布。

Marty Cagan: And salesforce.com has a big...

Marty Cagan：salesforce.com 有一个很大的......

But don't confuse the actual releasing by the teams with the marketing releases.

但不要将团队的实际发布与营销发布混淆。

So it's very normal and I think wise to batch.

所以这是很正常的，我认为批量处理是明智的。

Because look, most product teams are releasing on the order of 20 times per day.

因为看，大多数产品团队每天发布的次数约为 20 次。

You're going to do a marketing release 20 times a day?

您每天要发布 20 次营销发布吗？

That would be useless.

那就没用了。

So it makes sense to have messaging on a periodic basis, but good companies, by the time they message it, it's live.

因此，定期发送消息是有意义的，但优秀的公司，当他们发送消息时，消息已经是实时的。

It's been coming out.

已经出来了

We may have released some things dark as you know, but we've got it in production solid.

如您所知，我们可能发布了一些黑暗的东西，但我们已经将其正式投入生产。

We've proven each thing probably with an AB test.

我们已经通过 AB 测试证明了每件事。

Lenny: Airbnb is actually in that same model.

Lenny：Airbnb 实际上也是同样的模式。

Most of the stuff they announced every couple times a year is already out or an experiment to most people.

他们每年每隔几次宣布的大部分内容已经发布，或者对大多数人来说都是实验。

One thing I wanted to clarify, so you call this the product operating model.

我想澄清一件事，所以你称之为产品运营模型。

There's also this role product ops, which you touched on a little bit.

还有这个角色产品运营，你也提到了一点。

Any thoughts on product ops?

对产品运营有什么想法吗？

We've had a few guests here talk about it.

我们这里有几位客人谈论过这个问题。

Marty Cagan: It's tricky.

马蒂·凯根：这很棘手。

First of all, some people have asked me, is product ops the same as product operating model?

首先，有人问我，产品运营和产品运营模式一样吗？

No. That was just a very unfortunate name conflict, but product ops is more analogous to DevOps and design ops, that's all.

不。这只是一个非常不幸的名称冲突，但产品运营更类似于 DevOps 和设计运营，仅此而已。

Now, can you use product ops in the product operating model?

现在，您可以在产品运营模型中使用产品运营吗？

Absolutely, if you're using one of the definitions that are part of the model.

当然，如果您使用的是模型中的定义之一。

So for example, the heart of product ops in the good companies I know is user research and data analysts.

例如，我所知道的优秀公司的产品运营核心是用户研究和数据分析师。

And the only difference is they're now brought together under one product ops leader.

唯一的区别是他们现在由一位产品运营负责人领导。

That's all.

就这样。

That that is the same.

那是一样的。

How long has that been with us, Lenny?

我们这样相处多久了，莱尼？

More than 20 years.

20多年了。

Companies have had user research teams and have had data analyst teams to help you make decisions qualitatively and help you make teams quantitatively.

公司有用户研究团队，有数据分析师团队来帮助你定性地做出决策，并帮助你定量地组建团队。

So that's not new at all, but it is good.

所以这根本不是什么新鲜事，但它很好。

And I think there is some amount of value about bringing that in.

我认为引入这一点有一定的价值。

Marty Cagan: Some companies, of course, they interpret and define product ops very differently.

Marty Cagan：当然，有些公司对产品运营的解释和定义非常不同。

A lot of them unfortunately think of it, they focus on the whole phrase of process in governance.

他们中的很多人不幸地想到了这一点，他们关注的是治理过程的整个阶段。

That's a huge red flag and I try to tell people, if that's what you see, run.

这是一个巨大的危险信号，我试图告诉人们，如果你看到这样的情况，就跑吧。

Don't walk away from that.

不要远离这一点。

The other thing that's going on in a lot of companies, it is amazing to me how creative companies can be to try to find a way to justify giving product managers assistance because the product manager says too much work, which is really ironic to me 'cause they're usually feature teams that are saying this and I'm like, "It's not even enough for your job." But anyway, they're like, "Too much work." And so they're like, "Well, we need help." And so for a while, they would all have these little associate product managers.

许多公司正在发生的另一件事是，令我惊讶的是，有创造力的公司可以尝试找到一种方法来证明为产品经理提供帮助是合理的，因为产品经理说工作量太大，这对我来说真的很讽刺，因为他们通常是功能团队这么说，而我想，“这甚至不足以完成你的工作。”但无论如何，他们都会说，“工作太多了。”所以他们会说，“好吧，我们需要帮助。”所以有一段时间，他们都会有这些小副产品经理。

And then a lot of companies they have, oh, we also have product owners.

然后他们有很多公司，哦，我们也有产品负责人。

Marty Cagan: Product manager and product owner makes no sense.

Marty Cagan：产品经理和产品负责人毫无意义。

Huge anti-pattern.

巨大的反模式。

Today a lot of companies use the same excuse, but its product manager has product ops people to do the dirty work.

如今，许多公司都使用同样的借口，但其产品经理却让产品运营人员来做肮脏的工作。

No. And honestly, I would not want to be one of those people because I think they're very vulnerable right now.

不。老实说，我不想成为这些人中的一员，因为我认为他们现在非常脆弱。

Lenny: I've changed my mind on product ops.

Lenny：我改变了对产品运营的看法。

One reason is because I also was like, "I don't need another person in the loop on everything I'm doing.

原因之一是因为我也想，“我不需要另一个人参与我所做的一切。

I just want to have..." I don't know why I would do that even though I have endless work and I have working crazy hours.

我只是想……”我不知道为什么我会这么做，尽管我有无穷无尽的工作，而且我的工作时间很疯狂。

But I think one of the great things about product ops people that I talk to is there's not many of them.

但我认为，与我交谈过的产品运营人员的一大优点是，他们的数量并不多。

You need one often to do a ton and to help a lot of different teams, so it's not like a team that just grows like crazy.

你经常需要一个人做大量的事情并帮助很多不同的团队，所以这不像是一个疯狂成长的团队。

Marty Cagan: That's what I like.

马蒂·凯根：这就是我喜欢的。

Same with user research, by the way, and you had a very good guest on that I think tried to make that point as well, a small high leverage group.

顺便说一句，与用户研究相同，我认为您有一位非常好的客人也试图阐明这一点，一个小型的高影响力小组。

So it works for data analysts and it works for user research where they are helping the teams do the work they need to do, but that's where it really depends what they're doing.

因此，它适用于数据分析师，也适用于用户研究，他们帮助团队完成他们需要做的工作，但这实际上取决于他们正在做什么。

I will tell you I've seen too many companies where the product leaders are not doing their job, so what they do is they hire product ops to try to do their job.

我会告诉你，我见过太多的公司，产品负责人没有做好他们的工作，所以他们所做的就是雇佣产品运营人员来尝试完成他们的工作。

They're the ones now responsible for educating the product managers.

他们现在负责教育产品经理。

That's just not good.

那只是不好。

Lenny: I have just a few more questions before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，我还有几个问题。

Actually, maybe just one more question.

事实上，也许只是还有一个问题。

We'll see where this goes.

我们会看看这会发生什么。

So I've mentioned this earlier that a lot of startup founders are just like, "I do not need product managers.

所以我之前提到过，很多初创公司创始人都会说，“我不需要产品经理。

I'm not going to hire them ever.

我永远不会雇用他们。

Or maybe I'll wait until I have hundreds of engineers." But then I find many of them change their mind, bring in a PM and they're like, "Oh wow, this is amazing.

或者也许我会等到我拥有数百名工程师。”但后来我发现他们中的许多人改变了主意，引入了产品经理，然后他们说：“哇，这太棒了。

Why didn't I do this earlier?

我为什么不早点这样做呢？

This person, it's exactly what I needed." And these are guests I've had on the podcast that were like, "We don't need PMs." And then they get one and they're like, "Okay, I see.

这个人，正是我所需要的。”这些是我在播客上遇到的嘉宾，他们说：“我们不需要产品经理。”然后他们得到一个然后他们会说：“好吧，我明白了。

This is great." Do you have any advice for founders that are in this boat of just like, I don't want product managers, they're going to screw us up, they're going to slow us down?

这太棒了。”对于处于这种状态的创始人，你有什么建议吗？我不需要产品经理，他们会搞砸我们，他们会拖慢我们的速度？

Any advice for this?

对此有什么建议吗？

Marty Cagan: Yeah.

马蒂·凯根：是的。

Well, first of all, I'm one of the people that tries to discourage them from hiring product managers too soon because a lot of them make the mistake of hiring them too soon.

好吧，首先，我是那些试图阻止他们过早聘用产品经理的人之一，因为很多人都犯了过早聘用产品经理的错误。

Now, realize what we're talking about here, again, the whole discussion we've had, this is other layer to, I'm talking about a real product manager.

现在，再次意识到我们在这里谈论的内容，我们已经进行的整个讨论，这是另一层，我正在谈论一个真正的产品经理。

If they're using them as project manager, which a lot of times they are, well, I would tell them they're overpaying, but okay, you can get some help for project management.

如果他们使用他们作为项目经理（很多时候他们都是这样），那么，我会告诉他们他们付的钱太多了，但是好吧，你可以获得一些项目管理方面的帮助。

That's not a good use of the CEO's time.

这并没有很好地利用首席执行官的时间。

But if they're a real product manager and they're worried about value and viability, that is the founder's job.

但如果他们是真正的产品经理并且担心价值和生存能力，那就是创始人的工作。

So the founder should be doing that and needs to be doing that, and it usually causes conflict if they bring in a real product manager too soon.

因此，创始人应该这样做并且需要这样做，如果他们太早引入真正的产品经理，通常会引起冲突。

It's too many cooks in the kitchen.

厨房里的厨师太多了。

Marty Cagan: You need to reach a certain scale before it helps you to have other people responsible for value and viability.

马蒂·凯根：你需要达到一定的规模，然后才能帮助你让其他人对价值和生存能力负责。

That all assumes that they understand real product management, otherwise it's going to lead to very different symptoms.

这一切都假设他们了解真正的产品管理，否则会导致截然不同的症状。

Lenny: So I think one piece of advice here is after product-market fit is a better time to hire a product manager.

莱尼：所以我认为这里的一个建议是，在产品市场契合之后是聘请产品经理的更好时机。

Otherwise, they're just between you and the product and it slows everything down, right?

否则，它们就位于你和产品之间，这会减慢一切，对吗？

Marty Cagan: Yeah.

马蒂·凯根：是的。

Remember, usually as soon as you get product-market fit, you're working on it for other products and other markets, and so it's an ongoing thing, but while it's small, it usually is most useful just to look at the number of engineers.

请记住，通常一旦您获得了产品市场契合度，您就会为其他产品和其他市场而努力，因此这是一个持续的事情，虽然它很小，但通常仅查看工程师的数量是最有用的。

At a certain number of engineers, usually 20 to 25, it's a lot better if the co-founder is the product person for that.

当工程师达到一定数量（通常为 20 到 25 名）时，如果联合创始人是产品负责人，那就更好了。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I was going to ask you if you have a heuristic for engineers and so thank you for preempting that.

我想问你是否对工程师有启发，所以感谢你抢占先机。

That's essentially all I had to chat about, Marty.

这基本上就是我要聊的全部内容，马蒂。

Do you have anything else that you think would be interesting to share or touch on or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么其他您认为有趣的事情可以分享、触及或留给听众吗？

Marty Cagan: Honestly, Lenny, we talked about so many big topics.

马蒂·凯根：老实说，莱尼，我们讨论了很多重大话题。

I'm worried that may have overwhelmed people, I hope not.

我担心这可能会让人们不知所措，我希望不会。

Because you asked all the hardest topics.

因为你问了所有最难的话题。

Lenny: Well, good job me.

莱尼：嗯，干得好。

Good job you.

干得好你。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Marty Cagan: I love the new book from Tony Fadell called Build.

马蒂·凯根：我喜欢托尼·法德尔的新书《Build》。

It's a wonderful book and he's describing the product model, but for hardware devices and his perspective was fabulous.

这是一本很棒的书，他描述了产品模型，但对于硬件设备，他的观点非常棒。

He had a front row seat to some of the most iconic products in the world, the iPod, the iPhone, the Nest devices.

他坐在前排观看了一些世界上最具标志性的产品，如 iPod、iPhone、Nest 设备。

Love it.

爱它。

So I loved his book and I've been recommending it to all kinds of people.

所以我喜欢他的书，并且一直向各种人推荐它。

Another one I really liked is, do you know Tim Urban, the guy behind Wait But Why?

我真正喜欢的另一件事是，你知道《Wait But Why》背后的蒂姆·厄本吗？

Marty Cagan: I just love the way this guy thinks.

马蒂·凯根：我就是喜欢这个人的思维方式。

And he wrote a book called What's Our Problem?

他写了一本书，名为《我们的问题是什么？》

that I found really provocative.

我觉得这真的很有挑衅性。

Challenged me in a hundred different ways, so love that.

以一百种不同的方式挑战我，所以喜欢它。

Lenny: I've been reading about his book writing process as he was writing it over the many years and it was just quite a journey he went on to make that book happen.

莱尼：我多年来一直在阅读他写书的过程，他为这本书的出版经历了一段相当长的旅程。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Marty Cagan: Lenny, you couldn't ask that to a worst person 'cause I watch almost nothing, so not a good one for that.

马蒂·凯根：莱尼，你不能向一个最糟糕的人问这个问题，因为我几乎什么都没看，所以这不是一个好的选择。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

I think that's often for the best.

我认为这通常是最好的。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you either use yourself or find useful when interviewing folks, product managers especially?

您是否有最喜欢的面试问题，您自己使用过或在面试人员（尤其是产品经理）时发现有用？

Marty Cagan: Well, given how much interviewing I do, I stopped giving out my real favorite questions because they became online.

马蒂·凯根：嗯，考虑到我做了多少次采访，我不再提出我真正喜欢的问题，因为它们变成了在线问题。

But I do have a go-to question that I pretty much start with everybody and I want to know if they can even define the job of a product manager.

但我确实有一个首选问题，我几乎从每个人开始，我想知道他们是否可以定义产品经理的工作。

Lenny: What do you find in the answer and what do you look for?

莱尼：你在答案中发现了什么以及你在寻找什么？

Is it just how close they are to your version of a product manager?

他们与你心目中的产品经理有多接近？

Marty Cagan: I can tell where they learned from their answer, that's all.

马蒂·凯根：我可以告诉他们从他们的回答中学到了什么，仅此而已。

They don't have to give my answer.

他们不必给出我的答案。

They just shouldn't give the old feature team answer, that's all.

他们只是不应该给旧的功能团队答案，仅此而已。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really love, whether it's software or something physical, something around the house?

莱尼：您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品有吗，无论是软件还是物理的东西，比如家里的东西？

Marty Cagan: I recently got a Rivian, which is amazing that they did an absolutely beautiful job.

Marty Cagan：我最近买了一台 Rivian，令人惊奇的是他们做得非常漂亮。

They're the Airbnb of car companies because the founder's a designer and imagine if a designer designed the next generation car.

他们是汽车公司的 Airbnb，因为创始人是一名设计师，想象一下如果设计师设计了下一代汽车。

It's a phenomenally good job.

这是一项非常出色的工作。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I was imagining you could rent people's cars and that sounds pretty cool, but you mean it in a different way.

我想象你可以租别人的车，这听起来很酷，但你的意思是不同的。

Interestingly, both you and from Meta both had cars as your favorite recent product discovery.

有趣的是，您和 Meta 都将汽车作为您最近发现的最喜欢的产品。

He had a Mercedes-Benz.

他有一辆奔驰。

And I made the joke that I hope to give away these products someday and the budget is blowing up with all these cars in the mix.

我开玩笑说，我希望有一天能够赠送这些产品，而预算随着所有这些汽车的混合而膨胀。

Marty Cagan: Well, my favorite thing to do is ride motorcycles and there is a new generation of product that who knows, might save my life one day, but these are literally wireless airbag vests that you wear and it uses AI technology and sensors to decide if it should deploy.

马蒂·凯根：嗯，我最喜欢做的事情是骑摩托车，谁知道有新一代产品有一天可能会拯救我的生命，但这些实际上是你穿戴的无线安全气囊背心，它使用人工智能技术和传感器来决定是否应该部署。

Luckily, mine has never had to go off, but I know for a lot of people it saved their lives.

幸运的是，我的从来没有发生过故障，但我知道它拯救了很多人的生命。

That's an example of technology where without the technology, it's a very vulnerable...

这是技术的一个例子，如果没有技术，它就会非常脆弱......

Even with it, it's vulnerable.

即使有了它，它仍然很脆弱。

Lenny: Wait, do you ride motorcycles?

莱尼：等等，你骑摩托车吗？

Lenny: I had no idea.

莱尼：我不知道。

What bike do you ride?

你骑什么自行车？

Marty Cagan: I have two and they're both BMWs.

马蒂·凯根：我有两辆，都是宝马。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

We need to see a picture of this somewhere.

我们需要在某个地方看到这样的图片。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

I had no idea.

我不知道。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with friends or family and find useful either in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾、与朋友或家人分享，并发现它在工作或生活中都很有用？

Marty Cagan: I don't really have a life motto, but I do have one I share a lot with people because as you might imagine, I think writing really helps me think and I encourage other people to develop their thinking skills and there's a great quote from Leslie Lamport, the guy who...

马蒂·凯根：我并没有真正的人生座右铭，但我确实有一个我经常与人们分享的座右铭，因为正如你可能想象的那样，我认为写作确实有助于我思考，我鼓励其他人发展他们的思维能力，莱斯利·兰波特有一句很好的话，他……

You're not old enough to know this, but he invented one of the first word processors called LaTeX, which I used to use back in the day.

你还不够大，不知道这一点，但他发明了第一个文字处理器，称为 LaTeX，我当时就用过它。

But if you're thinking without writing, you just think you're thinking.

但如果你只是思考而不写作，那么你只是认为你在思考。

Lenny: There's a version of this that I love and it's the same idea that I don't know what I think until I've written it down.

莱尼：有一个我喜欢的版本，它的想法是一样的，除非我把它写下来，否则我不知道自己在想什么。

I think Joan Didion said that.

我想琼·迪迪安说过这句话。

Lenny: And I so agree.

莱尼：我非常同意。

That's why I started writing.

这就是我开始写作的原因。

I just want to figure this out that I have in my head.

我只是想弄清楚我脑子里的这个问题。

Crystallizing something that makes sense.

使一些有意义的事情具体化。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

You've been doing this work for many, many years now.

您从事这项工作已经很多年了。

How many years have you been at this?

你从事这行多少年了？

Lenny: 43 years.

莱尼：43岁。

What else would you have been doing right now if not having gone down this track?

如果你没有走这条路的话，你现在还会做什么？

Marty Cagan: Oh, well, honestly, I would've been really happy just staying in engineering.

马蒂·凯根：哦，好吧，老实说，我会很高兴留在工程领域。

I've always loved design too.

我也一直很喜欢设计。

I think I would've been really happy as a designer.

我想我作为一名设计师会非常高兴。

I think no matter what though, I would have been still building something, whether if it was houses or cars or whatever.

我想无论如何，我仍然会建造一些东西，无论是房子、汽车还是其他什么。

I like building things.

我喜欢建造东西。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

You're essentially a one man triad team in this dream.

在这个梦里，你本质上是一个黑社会的单人团队。

Marty, this was incredible.

马蒂，这太不可思议了。

It was everything I was hoping it'd be.

这就是我所希望的一切。

We covered so much stuff.

我们涵盖了很多东西。

I think we're going to help a lot of people transform.

我认为我们将帮助很多人实现转型。

Two final questions, where can folks find your book?

最后两个问题，人们在哪里可以找到你的书？

When is it available?

什么时候可以使用？

Where can they reach out if they want to follow up on stuff?

如果他们想要跟进事情，可以到哪里联系？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Marty Cagan: The book should be available worldwide in electronic Kindle audio and hardback on March 12th.

马蒂·凯根：这本书将于 3 月 12 日以电子版 Kindle 音频版和精装版在全球发售。

We'll see, but that's what the publishers promise.

我们拭目以待，但这就是出版商的承诺。

And you can find about all of the things I talk about and all our stuff is for free on the website, svpg.com, Silicon Valley Product Group.

您可以在网站 svpg.com（硅谷产品集团）上免费找到我谈论的所有内容以及我们的所有内容。

And if you don't know at least one of the partners, you should try to meet one.

如果您至少不认识其中一位合作伙伴，您应该尝试认识一位。

We all love meeting the community and I think you'll enjoy it.

我们都喜欢与社区见面，我想您会喜欢的。

So hopefully that's useful.

希望这有用。

Lenny: We've had two partners so far.

莱尼：到目前为止我们已经有两个合作伙伴了。

We'll work our way through the rest over time.

随着时间的推移，我们将努力完成剩下的事情。

And I want to make sure you answer the last question, how can listeners be useful to you?

我想确保你回答最后一个问题，听众如何对你有用？

Marty Cagan: To be honest, a lot of the inspiration for what we write comes from questions from people, and so we love it when people read something and if it works, great, and they tell us, we love that too.

马蒂·凯根：说实话，我们写作的很多灵感都来自人们的问题，所以我们喜欢人们阅读一些东西，如果它有效，那就太好了，他们告诉我们，我们也喜欢这样。

But if they have follow-up questions, one of the nice things about the online archive is we'll just go update the article to address the question.

但如果他们有后续问题，在线存档的好处之一就是我们将更新文章来解决问题。

So we love that.

所以我们喜欢这样。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Marty, thank you so much for making time to do this and for being here.

马蒂，非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事并来到这里。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。