Becoming more strategic, navigating difficult colleagues, founder mode, more | Anneka Gupta

Lenny: Manik Gupta has led two of the most successful consumer products in history: Google Maps, where he was director of product for the Maps team, and Uber where he was Chief Product Officer.

莱尼：马尼克·古普塔领导了历史上最成功的两个消费产品：谷歌地图（他担任地图团队的产品总监）和优步（他担任首席产品官）。

After leaving Uber, he spent most of his time working on a product to help people avoid getting COVID, called CVKey, and most recently he took on a role at Microsoft as Corporate Vice President leading many of their consumer efforts.

离开 Uber 后，他把大部分时间都花在开发一款名为 CVKey 的产品上，以帮助人们避免感染新冠病毒。最近，他在微软担任公司副总裁，负责领导许多消费者工作。

Lenny: In our conversation, we cover what he's learned about building successful consumer products, how to structure and higher product teams, building consumer apps, a concept called the consumer stack, company market fit versus product market fit, what it's like to be CPO, what he learned working at Microsoft versus Uber versus Google, and also a ton of career advice for anyone thinking about becoming a CPO someday.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们介绍了他在构建成功的消费产品方面所学到的知识、如何构建和更高级别的产品团队、构建消费者应用程序、消费者堆栈的概念、公司市场契合度与产品市场契合度、成为 CPO 的感受、他在 Microsoft、Uber 和 Google 工作中学到的东西，以及为任何想成为 CPO 的人提供的大量职业建议。

I hope that you enjoy this episode with Manik Gupta.

我希望您喜欢马尼克·古普塔的这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel, offering powerful self-serve product analytics.

Lenny：本集由 Mixpanel 为您带来，提供强大的自助产品分析。

Something we talk a lot about on the show is how startups can build successful and amazing products.

我们在节目中经常谈论的是初创公司如何打造成功且令人惊叹的产品。

And relying on gut feeling is a really expensive way to find out if you're heading in the right direction, especially when you're raising money.

依靠直觉来判断自己是否朝着正确的方向前进是一种非常昂贵的方法，尤其是当你筹集资金时。

Because VCs don't want to pay the price for these kinds of mistakes.

因为风险投资家不想为此类错误付出代价。

That's why Mixpanel will give you $50,000 in credits when you join their startup program.

这就是为什么当您加入 Mixpanel 的启动计划时，Mixpanel 将为您提供 50,000 美元的积分。

With Mixpanel, startups find product market fit faster, helping you take your company from minimal viable product to the next unicorn.

借助 Mixpanel，初创公司可以更快地找到适合市场的产品，帮助您将公司从最小可行产品转变为下一个独角兽。

Access realtime insights with the help of their prebuilt templates, and note that at every stage Mixpanel is helping you build with confidence and curiosity for free.

借助预构建模板获取实时见解，并请注意，Mixpanel 在每个阶段都可以帮助您充满信心和好奇心地免费构建。

Apply for the startup program today to claim your $50,000 in credits at mixpanel.com/startups with an S.

立即在 mixpanel.com/startups 上申请启动计划，并通过 S 申请获得 50,000 美元的积分。

And even if you're not a startup, Mixpanel has pricing plans for teams of every size.

即使您不是初创公司，Mixpanel 也为各种规模的团队提供了定价计划。

Grow your business like you've always imagined with Mixpanel.

使用 Mixpanel 像您一直想象的那样发展您的业务。

Lenny: Hey, Casey Winters.

莱尼：嘿，凯西·温特斯。

What do you love about Coda?

你喜欢 Coda 的什么？

Casey Winters: Coda is a company that's actually near and dear to my heart, because I got to work on their launch when I was at Greylock.

Casey Winters：Coda 是一家我非常亲近的公司，因为我在 Greylock 的时候就参与了他们的发布工作。

But in terms of what I love about it, you know I love loops and Coda has some of the coolest and most useful content loops I've seen.

但就我喜欢它的方面而言，你知道我喜欢循环，而且 Coda 拥有一些我见过的最酷、最有用的内容循环。

How the loop works is someone can create a Coda and share it publicly for the world.

这个循环的工作原理是有人可以创建一个 Coda 并公开分享给全世界。

This can be how you create OKRs, run annual planning, build your roadmap, whatever.

这可以是您创建 OKR、运行年度计划、构建路线图等的方式。

Every one of those Codas can then be easily copied and adapted to your organization without knowing who originally even wrote it.

这些 Coda 中的每一个都可以轻松复制并适应您的组织，而无需知道最初是谁编写的。

They're embedding the sharing of best practices of scaling companies into their core product and growth loops, which is something I'm personally passionate about.

他们将扩大公司规模的最佳实践分享嵌入到他们的核心产品和增长循环中，这是我个人所热衷的。

Lenny: I actually use Coda myself every day.

Lenny：实际上我自己每天都使用 Coda。

It's kind of the center of my writing and podcasting operation.

这是我写作和播客业务的中心。

I use it for first drafts, organize my content calendar, to plan each podcast episode, and so many more things.

我用它来制作初稿、组织内容日历、规划每个播客剧集等等。

Coda's giving listeners this podcast $1,000 in free credit off their first statement.

Coda 为这个播客的听众提供了 1,000 美元的免费信用额度。

Just go to coda.io/lenny.

只需访问 coda.io/lenny。

That's coda.io/lenny.

那是 coda.io/lenny。

Lenny: Manik, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：马尼克，欢迎来到播客。

Manik Gupta: Thank you, Lenny.

马尼克·古普塔：谢谢你，莱尼。

It's great to be here, man.

很高兴来到这里，伙计。

Lenny: I don't know if it's obvious, but I am quite honored to have you on this podcast.

莱尼：我不知道这是否显而易见，但我很荣幸您能加入这个播客。

You've had such an illustrious career as a founder leading the Google Maps team, as CPO at Uber for, I believe, four years.

作为领导 Google 地图团队的创始人，以及在 Uber 担任首席产品官（我相信）四年，您拥有如此辉煌的职业生涯。

Now you're kind of a fancy VP at Microsoft on consumer stuff.

现在你是微软负责消费者事务的一位出色的副总裁。

It's this incredible career and trajectory.

这是令人难以置信的职业和轨迹。

My first question is, looking back at your career, what would you say is maybe the one or two main things that you did that helped you get to where you are today?

我的第一个问题是，回顾你的职业生涯，你会说你所做的一两件主要的事情帮助你取得了今天的成就？

For folks that are maybe earlier in the career, of what they should be focusing on.

对于那些可能处于职业生涯早期的人来说，他们应该关注什么。

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

Thanks, Lenny, for having me.

谢谢莱尼邀请我。

I'm also a big fan of yours, by the way.

顺便说一句，我也是你的忠实粉丝。

I love your newsletter and it's been incredible to just see how you have also grown both the set of topics that you cover and this podcast.

我喜欢你的时事通讯，看到你如何发展你所涵盖的主题集和这个播客，真是令人难以置信。

Just really a big fan, so again, thanks for having me.

我真的是一个超级粉丝，所以再次感谢你邀请我。

Manik Gupta: Let me start by telling you a little bit about my philosophy of this.

Manik Gupta：首先让我向您介绍一下我的哲学。

I'm maybe a little bit late to the party, but I recently read this book from Morgan Hausel on Psychology of Money.

我可能来得有点晚了，但我最近读了摩根·豪塞尔的这本关于金钱心理学的书。

And I highly recommend your listeners read it if they get a chance.

如果有机会，我强烈建议您的听众阅读它。

There's a chapter in there, he talks about luck and risk.

里面有一章，他谈到了运气和风险。

What he says is, when you look at individuals and you think about, or you ask them, or you think about what they have done that have made them successful, we tend to put a greater amount of emphasis on effort and a little less emphasis on luck and risk.

他说的是，当你观察个人并思考，或者你问他们，或者你思考他们做了什么让他们成功时，我们倾向于更加重视努力，而不太重视运气和风险。

I think I strongly subscribe to that.

我想我强烈同意这一点。

The important thing when you look back is how much luck played a big part, and of course the risk that somebody took played a big part.

当你回顾过去时，重要的是运气发挥了很大的作用，当然，某人所承担的风险也发挥了很大的作用。

Manik Gupta: This is something that I've been thinking a lot about myself, which is what are some of the patterns of people who have had multiple careers and have gone through a journey where they've learned a lot and they've contributed and things like that?

Manik Gupta：这是我对自己进行了很多思考的事情，这就是那些从事过多种职业并经历了一段学习了很多东西并做出了贡献的旅程的人的一些模式？

I think there are two patterns that stand out, both when I look at myself in terms of what I've been through, and also when I talk to a lot of my friends who have also gone on and done interesting things, and I wanted to cover both of that.

我认为有两种模式很突出，无论是当我根据自己所经历的事情来看待自己时，还是当我与很多也继续做有趣的事情的朋友交谈时，我想涵盖这两点。

The first one is really about people.

第一个确实是关于人的。

It's about surrounding yourself with the best people you can find.

这是关于让你周围都是你能找到的最好的人。

Manik Gupta: It was so funny.

马尼克·古普塔：这太有趣了。

I was watching the Warriors game last night, and yeah Warriors, we won the NBA championship.

昨晚我看了勇士队的比赛，是的，勇士队，我们赢得了 NBA 冠军。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Manik Gupta: One of the reporters, I think she asked Steve Kerr, the coach, "What's the secret?" And he goes, "Well just hang around superstars." That's what he said and he just passed the mic over to somebody else and said, "Look, this is a team that's hanging around superstars." And that's exactly what it is.

马尼克·古普塔：其中一位记者，我想她问教练史蒂夫·科尔，“秘密是什么？”他说：“那就和超级巨星待在一起吧。”他就是这么说的，然后他把麦克风递给了其他人，说道：“看，这是一支围绕着超级巨星的球队。”事实就是如此。

If you're create enough opportunities, especially early on in your career as you asked, around hanging around people who are doing interesting things and they're doing things which really are different, or they're doing things in a different manner and it's exciting, the right things will happen.

如果你创造了足够的机会，尤其是在你职业生涯的早期，正如你所要求的，与那些正在做有趣的事情的人在一起，他们正在做一些真正不同的事情，或者他们正在以不同的方式做事情并且令人兴奋，那么正确的事情就会发生。

Manik Gupta: I was lucky in a way that I caught myself in that situation.

马尼克·古普塔：从某种程度上来说，我很幸运，我陷入了那种境地。

I grew up in India and when I was 16 I got a scholarship to move to Singapore to do my high school and then my undergrad studies.

我在印度长大，16 岁时，我获得了奖学金搬到新加坡读高中，然后读本科。

It just turned out that during those days, Singapore...

原来，当年的新加坡……

I mean it still is, but it was a melting pot for the best and brightest folks that you can get from all over the Asia diaspora if you will.

我的意思是它现在仍然如此，但它是一个熔炉，汇聚了来自亚洲各地的最优秀、最聪明的人，如果你愿意的话。

Among my colleagues and my fellow students there were a bunch of really, really smart people, so I just learned a lot from them and that gave me a great start to just go on and do something interesting.

在我的同事和同学中，有一群非常非常聪明的人，所以我从他们身上学到了很多东西，这给了我一个很好的开始，让我可以继续做一些有趣的事情。

Right out of college, I started my own company and I did that with two of my classmates.

大学刚毕业，我就和两个同学一起创办了自己的公司。

One of them happens to be one of my best friends whom I grew up with who also came on the same scholarship with me to Singapore.

其中一位恰好是我一起长大的最好的朋友之一，他也和我一起获得了同样的奖学金来到新加坡。

We were just part of that ecosystem and it gave me a lot of opportunities to try out different things in college and so on and so forth.

我们只是这个生态系统的一部分，它给了我很多机会在大学里尝试不同的东西等等。

Manik Gupta: I think the main thing that I would say here for people who are early in career is just surround yourself with people who are really good at what they do.

Manik Gupta：我认为我要对职业生涯早期的人说的最重要的是，让自己周围都是真正擅长自己所做的事情的人。

Learn from them.

向他们学习。

And by the way, play the long game.

顺便说一句，要打持久战。

Once you find someone like that, stick to them.

一旦找到这样的人，就坚持下去。

As long as they want to hang out with you, but just stick to them.

只要他们想和你一起出去玩，但就坚持他们。

Because you will go on to do multiple things over your career with the same set of people.

因为在你的职业生涯中，你将继续与同一群人一起做很多事情。

And the shared trust and experience that you build with A plus people is just going to go a long way.

您与 A+ 员工建立的共同信任和经验将会大有帮助。

Anyway, that's pattern number one.

无论如何，这是第一个模式。

I think that has helped me a lot and I also see a lot of that in other folks whom I talk to.

我认为这对我帮助很大，而且我在与我交谈的其他人身上也看到了很多这样的情况。

Manik Gupta: Then the second pattern is...

Manik Gupta：那么第二种模式是......

This is something I resonate a lot with personally, is I'm a strong technology optimist.

这是我个人产生很大共鸣的一点，因为我是一个坚定的技术乐观主义者。

There's always a lot of narrative these days around technology and maybe a little bit more pessimism, and I find that bizarre.

现在总是有很多关于技术的叙述，也许还有一点悲观主义，我觉得这很奇怪。

I'm just such a strong technology advocate and optimist, because I feel technology's such a strong force for good.

我是一位坚定的技术倡导者和乐观主义者，因为我觉得技术是一股强大的向善力量。

I grew up as an engineer myself, and I've always been attracted to projects where we can use technology to solve a real human need.

我自己是一名工程师，我一直被那些可以利用技术解决人类真正需求的项目所吸引。

I did that with my startup, I did that at Hewlett-Packard, I did that at Google and at Uber as well.

我在我的初创公司、惠普、谷歌和 Uber 都是这么做的。

The passion that you get if you're a strong advocate of technology and how it can really help, it just gets you to choose a set of things that you want to do at scale.

如果您是技术的坚定拥护者以及技术如何真正提供帮助，那么您所获得的热情只会让您选择一系列您想要大规模做的事情。

Manik Gupta: For instance, when I joined Google in India to work on Maps, it was all about helping millions of users, around Asia particularly, navigate their world.

Manik Gupta：例如，当我在印度加入 Google 从事地图工作时，一切都是为了帮助数百万用户（尤其是亚洲各地的用户）导航他们的世界。

There wasn't a good solution like that, so how can you bring technology to really solve those problems?

没有一个好的解决方案，那么如何利用技术来真正解决这些问题呢？

Manik Gupta: I think those are the two patterns, Lenny.

Manik Gupta：我认为这就是两种模式，Lenny。

One is surrounding yourself with A plus people, and the second is just having very strong optimism and passion about technology.

一是让自己周围都是优秀的人，二是对技术有非常强烈的乐观和热情。

At least if I connect their dots looking backwards, those are the things that have really helped me and a bunch of other folks that I see in a similar situation.

至少如果我回顾过去，这些事情确实对我和我在类似情况下看到的其他一群人有帮助。

I'm hoping that folks early in their career thing through that.

我希望那些处于职业生涯早期的人能够经历这一点。

Lenny: I bet there's a big overlap between those two points, technology optimist and just superstars.

莱尼：我敢打赌这两点之间有很大的重叠，技术乐观主义者和超级明星。

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

Manik Gupta: Yeah, there definitely is.

Manik Gupta：是的，肯定有。

That's actually really good.

这其实真的很好。

I hadn't thought about that.

我没有想到这一点。

You're right.

你说得对。

I think there's definitely that overlap, because folks who are in that mode, they really get around more together.

我认为肯定存在这种重叠，因为处于这种模式的人们确实更容易在一起。

I'm also an angel investor and an investor in a bunch of companies.

我也是一名天使投资人，也是多家公司的投资人。

Lenny, you and I have invested in a bunch of companies together as well.

莱尼，你和我也一起投资了很多公司。

And it's like that.

就是这样。

It's really about people who have the same kind of frequency in terms of thinking about the world outlook and they want to go on to do interesting things.

这实际上是关于人们在思考世界观方面具有相同的频率，并且他们想要继续做有趣的事情。

I think that's really what drives the narrative forward.

我认为这才是推动故事向前发展的真正原因。

Lenny: Speaking of technology optimism and technology in general, of the things that you've worked on, what would you say you're most proud of project wise, product wise, feature wise?

Lenny：谈到技术乐观主义和一般技术，谈到您所做的事情，您认为项目方面、产品方面、功能方面最让您感到自豪的是什么？

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

Again, I've had just the incredible opportunity to be part of phenomenal companies that have created world changing products.

我再次获得了难以置信的机会，成为创造改变世界产品的杰出公司的一员。

I had a small, small, small part to play in that.

我在其中扮演了一个很小很小的角色。

I always emphasize that.

我总是强调这一点。

It's not me, it was a team.

不是我，是一个团队。

And I really mean it.

我是认真的。

I'm not just saying it because I'm on your podcast, but it truly is.

我这么说不仅仅是因为我在你的播客上，但事实确实如此。

I'm particularly proud of the work that I did both at Google and at Uber.

我对我在 Google 和 Uber 所做的工作感到特别自豪。

I'll give you a couple of examples to illustrate that point.

我将举几个例子来说明这一点。

Manik Gupta: When I joined Google in India in 2008, I started off working on Google Maps and I remember how counterintuitive it was for anybody; my friends and family, a bunch of other folks whom I talked to.

Manik Gupta：当我 2008 年在印度加入 Google 时，我开始从事 Google 地图工作，我记得这对任何人来说都是多么违反直觉；我的朋友和家人，以及我与之交谈过的其他一些人。

Counterintuitive in terms of why would anybody ever use maps on their mobile phone in India?

违反直觉的是，为什么有人会在印度的手机上使用地图？

The reason was because the norm was that, firstly, the country's unmappable because there's no good addressing system.

原因是因为常态是，首先，这个国家无法绘制地图，因为没有良好的寻址系统。

So how do you even look at places?

那么你如何看待地方呢？

Then the second one was there were always people around that you can just roll down your car window and just ask people, "Hey, I'm going here and can you just give me guidance or directions?" That was the norm.

第二个是周围总是有人，你可以摇下车窗并问人们，“嘿，我要去这里，你能给我指导或指示吗？”这是常态。

That's how people navigated for a really long time.

这就是人们在很长一段时间内的导航方式。

Manik Gupta: When I started working on it, I think for me, my belief was, again going back to the tech optimism aspect, is why can't we in India have the same quality maps like we have in the United States?

Manik Gupta：当我开始研究它时，我认为对我来说，我的信念是，再次回到技术乐观方面，为什么我们在印度不能拥有与美国相同质量的地图？

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Why shouldn't we do it?

我们为什么不应该这样做呢？

Why are users here not getting the same benefit and same productivity gain, if you will, and less stress in their daily commute and things like that?

为什么这里的用户没有获得同样的好处和同样的生产力提升（如果你愿意的话），并且在日常通勤和类似的事情中没有更少的压力？

Manik Gupta: So we started building it.

Manik Gupta：所以我们开始构建它。

We started building the data.

我们开始构建数据。

We went ahead and really mapped the country as much as we could.

我们继续尽可能多地绘制了这个国家的地图。

Both ourselves and through a lot of amazing work from our users who co-mapped the world with us.

我们自己以及与我们共同绘制世界地图的用户所做的许多令人惊叹的工作。

Over time, India became, I think, the second largest country for Google Maps in the world in terms of users.

随着时间的推移，我认为印度已成为全球谷歌地图用户数量第二多的国家。

Of course, a lot of that happened because of Android.

当然，很多事情的发生都是因为 Android。

Android took off and Android had Google Maps on it.

Android 起飞了，Android 上也安装了 Google 地图。

But it's just incredible to see how, in a short span of a few years, it just went up to becoming so useful.

但令人难以置信的是，在短短几年内，它就变得如此有用。

It's not that we were just distributing Google Maps on Android, people were using it.

这并不是说我们只是在 Android 上分发 Google 地图，而是人们正在使用它。

People were actually using it to go from point A to point B.

人们实际上是用它从 A 点到 B 点。

Manik Gupta: I feel really proud about that.

Manik Gupta：我对此感到非常自豪。

I think the team did an incredible effort.

我认为团队付出了令人难以置信的努力。

It wasn't even a big team.

这甚至不是一个大团队。

It was a relatively small team, very passionate about going and doing this, and we made that happen.

这是一个相对较小的团队，非常热衷于去做这件事，我们做到了这一点。

Manik Gupta: Then at Uber, initially, before I took on the CPO role, I was leading maps and marketplace.

Manik Gupta：然后在 Uber，最初，在我担任首席产品官之前，我负责领导地图和市场。

When I was doing maps and marketplace, again, how do you get the ETA that you see on Uber when you open the Uber app and you request a car...

当我在做地图和市场时，当你打开 Uber 应用程序并请求一辆车时，如何获得在 Uber 上看到的预计到达时间......

The average ETA's went down to less than five minutes globally.

全球平均预计到达时间已降至不到五分钟。

Just think about that for a minute.

想一想。

In fact, it was 75 countries, more than 300 cities, if I remember correctly, where you could just open the Uber app and get an Uber in, average, less than five minutes.

事实上，如果我没记错的话，在 75 个国家、300 多个城市，你只需打开 Uber 应用程序，平均不到五分钟就可以叫到 Uber。

A lot of operational work need to happen for sure, but the technology, the marketplace technology especially to be able to connect the right rider to the right driver, have the mapping infrastructure underneath it to ensure that the car actually reaches you in that amount of time; I just feel very proud of all the work that happened during that time to make Uber really successful in terms of providing that kind of a service.

肯定需要进行大量的运营工作，但是技术，尤其是市场技术，能够将正确的骑手与正确的驾驶员连接起来，并在其下方拥有地图基础设施，以确保汽车在这段时间内真正到达您身边；我对那段时间所做的所有工作感到非常自豪，这些工作使 Uber 在提供此类服务方面取得了真正的成功。

Manik Gupta: One fun anecdote I'll give you where my world came together and it just blows my mind even today, I remember I joined Uber in late 2015 and I made a trip to India to see my parents in sometime around 2016, 2017.

Manik Gupta：我会给你讲一个有趣的轶事，我的世界在这里汇聚在一起，即使在今天，它也让我大吃一惊，我记得我在 2015 年底加入了 Uber，并在 2016 年、2017 年左右的某个时候去了印度看望我的父母。

I forget.

我忘记了。

It was around that time.

大约就是那个时候。

And I was at home in Bangalore and I ordered an Uber.

我当时在班加罗尔的家里，我叫了一辆优步。

And the guy shows up, the driver comes in, and I sit in the back of the car.

那个人出现了，司机进来了，我坐在车的后座上。

He starts the trip using the Uber app, and then he clicks Navigate and he goes to Google Maps.

他使用 Uber 应用程序开始旅程，然后单击“导航”并转到 Google 地图。

And I was sitting there.

我就坐在那里。

I was like, "Man, I built these two to a certain extent." It was just crazy to think about how two of my worlds came together at that point.

我当时想，“伙计，我在某种程度上建造了这两个。”想到我的两个世界在那时是如何融合在一起的，真是太疯狂了。

I still vividly remember that moment where I felt really proud that I had a little bit of a part to play in both those products.

我仍然清楚地记得那一刻，我感到非常自豪，因为我在这两个产品中都发挥了一点作用。

Lenny: That is some unbelievable impact.

莱尼：这是一些令人难以置信的影响。

It boggles my mind how many people have been impacted by the work that you've done on the teams that you've been on.

令我难以置信的是，有多少人受到你在团队中所做的工作的影响。

Like a billion people in India and everyone in the world using Uber.

就像印度的 10 亿人和世界上每个使用 Uber 的人一样。

It's unreal.

这是不真实的。

I would feel very proud myself, watching that experience.

看到那段经历，我自己也会感到非常自豪。

Lenny: Something people may feel when they see a career like yours, they're like, "Man, Manik's just killing it.

莱尼：当人们看到像你这样的职业时，他们可能会有这样的感觉，“伙计，马尼克简直就是在毁掉它。

He's done everything.

他已经做了一切。

Everything just is clicking, always winning." I imagine there's been a few times when you've made mistakes or things have been really challenging.

一切都很顺利，总是胜利。”我想有几次你会犯错误或者事情确实具有挑战性。

What would you say has been one of the more challenging projects or points in your career?

您认为您职业生涯中最具挑战性的项目或点之一是什么？

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

No, absolutely.

不，绝对是。

This is really important to talk about as well, because we glamorize successes and we don't talk enough about challenges.

谈论这一点也非常重要，因为我们美化成功，而对挑战谈论得不够。

I'm really happy that you're asking this.

我真的很高兴你问这个。

I would give you two times which...

我会给你两次...

I had a lot of learning from both of them, but they were pretty tough times for me.

我从他们身上学到了很多东西，但他们对我来说是非常艰难的时期。

The first time was, I had started my own company at the height of the dotcom boom.

第一次是我在互联网繁荣的鼎盛时期创办了自己的公司。

We incorporated our company in June '99, and then in March of 2000 we sold our company to another company from Norway.

我们于99年6月成立了我们的公司，然后在2000年3月我们将我们的公司出售给另一家来自挪威的公司。

That was the peak of the dotcom boom.

那是互联网繁荣的顶峰。

Then within a few months right after that, we had the dotcom bust and it was terrible.

在那之后的几个月内，我们遭遇了互联网泡沫破灭，这非常糟糕。

Terrible.

糟糕的。

I know we have a pretty bad economy right now.

我知道我们现在的经济非常糟糕。

There's a lot of stuff going on.

有很多事情正在发生。

It was really bad, because people around me, my friends, were losing their jobs.

这真的很糟糕，因为我周围的人，我的朋友，正在失业。

Manik Gupta: Luckily we had some funding.

Manik Gupta：幸运的是我们有一些资金。

We had secured some of our funding and we had had an acquisition.

我们已经获得了一些资金，并且进行了收购。

The parent company was pretty strong in terms of their balance sheet, so we could continue to do it.

母公司的资产负债表相当强劲，所以我们可以继续这样做。

But things didn't get better, Lenny.

但事情并没有好转，莱尼。

2000 went by, 2001 came in.

2000年过去了，2001年到来了。

We kept waiting for things to improve, but they never improved.

我们一直在等待事情有所改善，但情况却从未改善。

So we had to pivot.

所以我们必须转向。

We had to pivot as a company.

作为一家公司，我们必须转型。

My co-founders actually left the company at that point.

我的联合创始人实际上当时就离开了公司。

I still wanted to be there, because I really believed that I can keep moving this company forward.

我仍然想留在那里，因为我真的相信我可以继续推动这家公司向前发展。

Then I was working with the founders of the parent company.

然后我和母公司的创始人一起工作。

We pivoted multiple times, we tried a few things.

我们进行了多次调整，尝试了一些事情。

I even relocated back from Singapore back to India to set up an engineering office so that we can get into a SaaS kind of a model versus an eCommerce company that we were.

我什至从新加坡搬回印度，设立了一个工程办公室，这样我们就可以进入 SaaS 类型的模式，而不是我们以前的电子商务公司。

Manik Gupta: I tried many things over those two or three years.

Manik Gupta：在那两三年里我尝试了很多事情。

And remember, this was my first, quote unquote, "job" out of college.

请记住，这是我大学毕业后的第一份“工作”。

I was doing a lot of that and it was a very tough time.

我做了很多这样的事情，那是一段非常艰难的时期。

But at the same time I learned a lot.

但同时我学到了很多东西。

I learned a lot about myself, I learned a lot about managing ambiguity and just keeping people motivated through a tough time.

我学到了很多关于我自己的知识，我学到了很多如何管理歧义以及如何在困难时期保持人们的积极性。

A lot of that also has to come from keeping yourself motivated, because people can smell fear and pessimism from far.

其中很大一部分还必须来自于保持自己的动力，因为人们可以从远处闻到恐惧和悲观的气味。

Just like optimism is infectious, so is pessimism.

就像乐观情绪具有传染性一样，悲观情绪也具有传染性。

If you're not feeling great as a leader, people will see it.

如果你作为领导者感觉不太好，人们会看到的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

People are not stupid.

人们并不愚蠢。

You have to not fake it.

你不能假装它。

You have to really be motivated to stick it out, and that's what I tried to do at least, and I learned a lot in that.

你必须真正有动力坚持下去，这至少是我试图做的，我从中学到了很多东西。

That was one really challenging time for me.

那对我来说确实是一个充满挑战的时刻。

Manik Gupta: Then the second one was, man, during Uber.

Manik Gupta：第二个是在 Uber 期间。

2017, 2018 was crazy at Uber.

2017 年、2018 年对 Uber 来说是疯狂的一年。

Oh my God.

我的天啊。

There were just so much going on with leadership changes, with the brand issues we were getting.

领导层变动发生了很多事情，我们遇到了品牌问题。

For me, there were times when I would commute up from my house to the office, and while I'm in the car I will be listening to some news or whatever and I'll hear about things that happened at Uber that day from the news before I got to hear it from within the company.

对我来说，有时我会从家到办公室，当我在车里时，我会听一些新闻或其他什么，我会先从新闻中听到那天在 Uber 发生的事情，然后再从公司内部听到消息。

It was that crazy during that time.

那段时间真是太疯狂了。

So again, a lot of chaos, a lot of churn at the company as well.

同样，公司也出现了很多混乱和人员流失。

It was something where you just had to keep your head down and just keep staying focused on what the core is.

这是你必须低下头并继续专注于核心的事情。

Manik Gupta: I think that is where, Lenny, the optimism in me in terms of, what am I really doing?

马尼克·古普塔：莱尼，我认为这就是我内心的乐观情绪，我到底在做什么？

Is this a service that really benefits millions of people around the world?

这是一项真正造福全球数百万人的服务吗？

Are we creating true change?

我们正在创造真正的改变吗？

Those are things that I just have to dig deep into to make sure that I stay grounded on why am I here and why I remain to be here and then at the same time motivate my team.

这些是我必须深入挖掘的事情，以确保我能够脚踏实地地了解我为什么在这里以及为什么我仍然留在这里，然后同时激励我的团队。

But yeah, those were the two really challenging times that I have encountered, at least in my career.

但是，是的，那是我遇到的两个真正具有挑战性的时期，至少在我的职业生涯中是这样。

Lenny: Those are awesome examples.

莱尼：这些都是很棒的例子。

I imagine a lot of founders are going through a lot of challenging times right now with the market, and imagine these experiences for you were really important and impacted your ability to take on bigger roles and bigger challenges in the future.

我想很多创始人现在正在经历市场上的许多挑战时期，并且想象这些经历对你来说非常重要，并影响你在未来承担更大角色和更大挑战的能力。

Is that how you see it?

你是这样看的吗？

These are important experiences to have over time as a product leader and just leader in general?

作为产品领导者和一般领导者，这些是随着时间的推移而获得的重要经验吗？

Manik Gupta: Oh, absolutely.

马尼克·古普塔：哦，当然。

Because like I said, you learn a lot about yourself when you go through a situation like this.

因为就像我说的，当你经历这样的情况时，你会更加了解自己。

You learn both things that bother you or bring you down, and things that give you energy.

你会学到那些困扰你或让你沮丧的事情，以及给你能量的事情。

It's sometimes counterintuitive to think about this.

有时思考这一点是违反直觉的。

When you're going through a bad time, often then people will say, "Well, during a bad time I only learned things which are bad." But you also learn things that are good.

当你经历困难时期时，人们常常会说：“好吧，在困难时期我只学到了不好的东西。”但你也能学到一些好的东西。

Which is, maybe during a bad time you did something and you suddenly felt relieved or energized, and then you look at that and say, "Wait, I should do more of that even during a good time, because can you imagine the compounding power that I would get?

也就是说，也许在心情不好的时候，你做了某件事，突然感到如释重负或充满活力，然后你看着它说：“等等，即使在心情好的时候，我也应该做更多的事情，因为你能想象我会得到的复利力量吗？

Because stuff is good and I'm doing this and I'll feel even better."

因为事情很好，而且我正在这样做，我会感觉更好。”

Manik Gupta: I learned a lot in terms of my own personal energy, things that get me going, things that really stop me in my tracks.

Manik Gupta：我在个人能量方面学到了很多东西，那些让我前进的东西，那些真正阻止我前进的东西。

And at the same time, how do you work with a team?

与此同时，你如何与团队合作？

How do you motivate them?

你如何激励他们？

How do you keep your head down and focus, versus getting distracted?

如何保持低头并集中注意力，而不是分心？

What are some of the decisions you make around your product roadmap?

您围绕产品路线图做出了哪些决定？

Manik Gupta: I'll give you an example.

Manik Gupta：我给你举个例子。

During my startup, when we were going through that, in order to motivate the team, one of the best tricks that I came up with, and I learned this from a bunch of other people also, is you just give a team a win.

在我的创业过程中，当我们经历这个过程时，为了激励团队，我想出的最好的技巧之一，也是我从其他很多人那里学到的，就是你给一个团队带来胜利。

Winning really, really drives a lot of energy.

获胜确实会激发大量能量。

We had a choice to make between launching something which will take six months, versus launching something that we can launch in a very small-ish kind of way, but launch it in a month.

我们必须做出选择，要么推出需要六个月的时间，要么推出我们可以以非常小的方式推出但在一个月内推出的东西。

And we chose the latter, because when we did that, I remember people were giving high five to each other, people were saying, "Hey, you know what?

我们选择了后者，因为当我们这样做时，我记得人们互相击掌五声，人们说，“嘿，你知道吗？

This is great.

这太棒了。

We put something in front of customers." We had, I think, 10 customers who used it or something, because we were so soft-scaling that feature.

我们把一些东西摆在顾客面前。”我认为，我们有 10 个客户使用过它或其他东西，因为我们对该功能的扩展非常软。

But that didn't really matter.

但这并不重要。

The point was that you get confidence from getting things out, putting it out there, and you feel good about being a builder and being someone who is actually creating a difference.

关键在于，你可以通过把东西拿出来、把它放在那里而获得信心，并且你会对自己成为一名建设者和成为一个真正创造变化的人感到满意。

That really grounds the team and focuses the team that there is some real value here.

这确实为团队奠定了基础，并让团队意识到这里有一些真正的价值。

Manik Gupta: Some of those things I picked up.

Manik Gupta：其中一些是我捡到的。

Both going through that turbulent time, I picked up.

两人都经历了那段动荡的时期，我捡起了。

And I have used that even in good times to make sure that we keep building good products.

即使在经济繁荣时期，我也利用这一点来确保我们不断打造优质产品。

Lenny: That's such a good tactical tip.

莱尼：这是一个很好的战术建议。

Find a win.

找到胜利。

Keep people motivated.

保持人们的积极性。

Speaking of wins, coming back to Google Maps and Uber, they're probably two of the most widely used, successful consumer products in the world.

说到胜利，回到谷歌地图和优步，它们可能是世界上使用最广泛、最成功的两种消费产品。

I don't know if I can think of other products that are used by more people for this long.

我不知道是否能想到其他产品被更多人使用这么长时间。

Then now at Microsoft you're helping Microsoft get more into consumer on the communications side.

现在，在微软，您正在帮助微软在通信方面更多地进入消费者市场。

I imagine you know a thing or two about building successful consumer apps, and so I want to ask a couple questions along those lines.

我想您对构建成功的消费者应用程序略知一二，所以我想问几个类似的问题。

What are two or three surprising or counterintuitive things that you've learned about building consumer products?

您在构建消费品时学到了哪两三件令人惊讶或违反直觉的事情？

Manik Gupta: The good news is that there's just...

Manik Gupta：好消息是……

Because of Twitter and a bunch of other channels, including your newsletter by the way, I feel like people are very well informed these days.

由于 Twitter 和许多其他渠道，包括你们的时事通讯，我觉得现在人们的消息非常灵通。

And I love that.

我喜欢这样。

Manik Gupta: Let me digress for a second and then I'll come back to your question.

Manik Gupta：让我先离题一下，然后我会回到你的问题。

One thing that I'm observing a lot, Lenny, which I feel very, very happy about, is the quality of learning and insights and frameworks and best practices is so universal at this point.

莱尼，我经常观察到的一件事是，学习的质量、见解、框架和最佳实践在这一点上是如此普遍，对此我感到非常非常高兴。

It used to be that you had to be in the Valley or being part of a small group of folks who are doing things at the cutting edge to have those crazy insights about how do you find product market fit and do all that kind of stuff.

过去，你必须身处硅谷，或者成为一小群在前沿做事的人的一员，才能对如何找到适合市场的产品并做所有这些事情有疯狂的见解。

Today I talk to people from all over the world for various reasons, and it's incredible how fast people pick up all these insights and frameworks and then they apply them to their local setting and so on.

今天，我出于各种原因与来自世界各地的人们交谈，令人难以置信的是，人们以如此快的速度掌握了所有这些见解和框架，然后将它们应用到当地的环境中等等。

I find that to be one of the most wonderful things ever.

我发现这是有史以来最美妙的事情之一。

Manik Gupta: I think folks like you have obviously played a big part, because you have global subscribers and you share some of the best practices.

Manik Gupta：我认为像您这样的人显然发挥了重要作用，因为您拥有全球订阅者并且分享了一些最佳实践。

But just generally, that's actually a really good thing for the world, that people have so much access to clarity of thinking.

但总的来说，这对世界来说实际上是一件好事，因为人们有很多机会获得清晰的思维。

And the best people are actually putting themselves out there, which is great.

最优秀的人实际上正在展现自己，这很棒。

Manik Gupta: In terms of the counterintuitive stuff, I think two things.

Manik Gupta：就违反直觉的事情而言，我认为有两件事。

One is building consumer products is very hard.

一是打造消费产品非常困难。

I think people think it's easy, because each of us is a consumer.

我认为人们认为这很容易，因为我们每个人都是消费者。

We think of ourselves as a good user, we think of our friends as users, we think of our family as users.

我们认为自己是一个好的用户，我们认为我们的朋友是用户，我们认为我们的家人是用户。

And we say, "Well, if we just build it for ourselves and for our family and friends..." By the way, a lot of great consumer products started that way, so I'm not saying don't do that.

我们说，“好吧，如果我们只是为自己、家人和朋友打造它……”顺便说一句，很多伟大的消费品都是这样开始的，所以我并不是说不要这样做。

But man, it's hard.

但是，伙计，这很难。

It takes a long time to get things right.

需要很长时间才能把事情做好。

Because you're essentially trying to get so many things right when you're building a successful consumer product.

因为当你构建成功的消费产品时，你本质上是在努力把很多事情做好。

You have to be able to reach out to a vast, heterogeneous set of users who have different needs, who have different perspectives.

您必须能够接触到大量不同类型的用户，他们有不同的需求，有不同的观点。

The go to market is always very interesting, because you can't force people to use your product.

进入市场总是很有趣，因为你不能强迫人们使用你的产品。

People have to choose you, you don't choose them.

人们必须选择你，而不是你选择他们。

That's the part where...

这就是那部分...

How do you drive virality?

如何推动病毒式传播？

How do you drive that real love for a consumer product?

如何激发人们对消费品的真正热爱？

And it has to create real value.

它必须创造真正的价值。

Manik Gupta: The other thing about time is that, in order for you to find product market fit and then scale from there, you just have to try a lot of different things.

Manik Gupta：关于时间的另一件事是，为了让你找到适合市场的产品，然后从那里扩大规模，你只需要尝试很多不同的事情。

There are theoretical playbooks around it, but you got to just get into it.

围绕它有一些理论手册，但你必须直接进入它。

Going back to the point I was making earlier about wins, get some wins and see the results and then iterate from there.

回到我之前关于胜利的观点，获得一些胜利并查看结果，然后从那里迭代。

I think it's just hard and it takes a lot longer than what people imagine consumer products do.

我认为这很难，而且比人们想象的消费产品需要更长的时间。

Versus, let's say, enterprise products or products of other nature.

与企业产品或其他性质的产品相比。

That's one counterintuitive thing that at least I've learned.

至少我了解到这是一件违反直觉的事情。

Manik Gupta: The second one is the global patterns that you see in consumer products in terms of the user interface; the core things that people do or expect.

Manik Gupta：第二个是你在消费产品的用户界面方面看到的全球模式；人们所做或期望的核心事情。

At this point along of that is pretty universal.

在这一点上，这一点是相当普遍的。

There's always this debate where people would say, "Well, need to have one product for the U.S., another different type of product for Asia, another different type of product for Africa.

人们总是会说：“好吧，需要为美国提供一种产品，为亚洲提供另一种不同类型的产品，为非洲提供另一种不同类型的产品。

I think we are past that point.

我认为我们已经过了那个阶段。

That's again another counterintuitive thing, where people spend a little too much...

这又是一件违反直觉的事情，人们花得太多了……

I've seen this in many companies.

我在很多公司都看到过这种情况。

People spend too much time debating that, "Oh, the users in market X are different." Well yes, they're different, but they use the product the same way.

人们花了太多时间争论“哦，市场 X 的用户是不同的”。是的，他们是不同的，但他们使用产品的方式是相同的。

Manik Gupta: That's the part which I think...

Manik Gupta：这就是我认为的部分......

And I'm not making an argument against localization.

我并不是反对本地化。

Of course you need localization around language, pricing.

当然，您需要围绕语言、定价进行本地化。

There are some legal requirements, all of that stuff.

有一些法律要求，所有这些东西。

Obviously you have to do that, otherwise you don't even have a right to exist in that market.

显然你必须这样做，否则你连在那个市场存在的权利都没有。

But by and large the patterns are very similar.

但总的来说，模式非常相似。

You look at global products, even like Facebook or Google Search or Maps or Twitter or TikTok and so on, all of them have a similar pattern or similar app for the entire world, and they keep on innovating or localizing at the edges.

你看看全球产品，甚至像 Facebook、谷歌搜索、地图、Twitter 或 TikTok 等，它们在全世界都有类似的模式或类似的应用程序，并且它们不断在边缘进行创新或本地化。

Manik Gupta: That's the other counterintuitive thing that people should know about consumer products.

Manik Gupta：这是人们应该了解的关于消费品的另一件违反直觉的事情。

Build for the world from day one.

从第一天起就为世界而建。

Understand that there are going to be some nuances that you'll have to solve as you drive adoption in certain markets, but don't over index on building market specific solutions, because consumers have moved on from that kind of a model.

要明白，当您推动某些市场的采用时，您必须解决一些细微差别，但不要过度关注构建特定于市场的解决方案，因为消费者已经放弃了这种模型。

Those are the two, in terms of product building, counterintuitive trends at least I have picked up over the years.

就产品构建而言，这就是我多年来发现的两个违反直觉的趋势。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Unit.

莱尼：这一集是由 Unit 为您带来的。

What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify, and AngelList all have in common?

Gusto、Uber、Shopify 和 AngelList 有什么共同点？

They've all decided to build banking into their product.

他们都决定将银行业务融入到他们的产品中。

According to AngelList head of product, banking makes every single feature more interesting.

AngelList 产品负责人表示，银行业务让每一项功能都变得更加有趣。

With it our platform functions as financial mission control for our customers.

有了它，我们的平台就可以为客户提供财务任务控制。

Without it we're just another software tool in a big messy stack.

没有它，我们只是一个混乱的堆栈中的另一个软件工具。

Embedding banking into your product not only adds differentiation, but also helps you acquire, retain, and monetize your customers.

将银行业务嵌入到您的产品中不仅可以增加差异化，还可以帮助您获取、保留客户并从中获利。

Unit is the market leader in banking as a service.

Unit 是银行即服务领域的市场领导者。

Combining multiple bank partners with a developer friendly API to empower companies of all sizes to launch accounts, cards, payments, and lending in just a few weeks.

将多个银行合作伙伴与开发人员友好的 API 相结合，使各种规模的公司能够在短短几周内推出账户、银行卡、支付和贷款。

Unit is trusted by leading brands such as AngelList, IB, Invoice2Go, and Roofstock.

Unit 受到 AngelList、IB、Invoice2Go 和 Roofstock 等领先品牌的信赖。

To hear more about how Unit enables companies like yours to build banking, visit unit.co/lenny to request a demo or to try their free sandbox.

要了解有关 Unit 如何帮助像您这样的公司建立银行业务的更多信息，请访问unit.co/lenny 请求演示或尝试他们的免费沙箱。

That's unit.co/lenny.

这是unit.co/lenny。

Lenny: Before this chat, we were chatting about this idea of company product fit for bigger companies.

Lenny：在这次聊天之前，我们正在讨论公司产品适合大公司的想法。

How it's an approach to building new products within big companies.

这是如何在大公司内部构建新产品的方法。

Can you just talk about that idea?

你能简单谈谈这个想法吗？

Manik Gupta: Yeah, absolutely.

马尼克·古普塔：是的，绝对如此。

I've been noodling a lot on this, especially since I took on my role at Microsoft as well.

我一直在思考这个问题，特别是自从我也在微软担任职务以来。

And prior to that, even at Google, this was always an interesting discussion.

在此之前，即使在谷歌，这也一直是一个有趣的讨论。

Let's say you are building a new product or leading a new project, if you will, at a larger company.

假设您正在一家较大的公司开发新产品或领导新项目（如果您愿意的话）。

In fact, this also applies to medium-sized companies.

事实上，这也适用于中型企业。

I wouldn't say for startups, but medium-sized companies.

我不会说针对初创公司，而是针对中型公司。

Usually the narrative in the room when you're discussing this with your team and with your leadership team would be, "Okay, we got to go find product market fit." Absolutely.

通常，当您与团队和领导团队讨论这个问题时，房间里的叙述是：“好吧，我们必须去寻找适合市场的产品。”绝对的。

Yeah.

是的。

We have to do a bunch of stuff, as we just talked about.

正如我们刚才谈到的，我们必须做很多事情。

Consumer products take time.

消费品需要时间。

All of that stuff.

所有这些东西。

Manik Gupta: But I think there's a question before that question, which is how do you find company product fit?

Manik Gupta：但我认为在这个问题之前还有一个问题，那就是你如何找到公司产品的契合度？

What I define as company product fit.

我所定义的公司产品契合度。

Which is a company essentially is a portfolio of products, and every large company, medium-sized company also has a portfolio.

其中一个公司本质上就是一个产品组合，每个大公司、中型公司也都有一个产品组合。

They'll have 10, 20, in some cases hundreds of products in the portfolio.

他们的产品组合中将有 10 种、20 种、有时甚至数百种产品。

Every company has unique strengths and weaknesses.

每家公司都有独特的优势和劣势。

This is pretty tried, but it's obvious.

这已经很尝试了，但很明显。

And I would encourage a lot of folks, when they start embarking on this journey where they're trying to really build out products and so on, is to ask that question.

我鼓励很多人，当他们开始踏上这段旅程，尝试真正构建产品等时，问这个问题。

How does that product, assuming it's successful...

假设该产品成功的话，它会如何...

If it is not successful, it doesn't matter anyway.

如果不成功，那也没关系。

But assuming it's successful, does it actually serve the right place in a company's product portfolio?

但假设它成功了，它真的在公司的产品组合中占据了正确的位置吗？

Or not?

或者不是？

And if it doesn't, don't do it.

如果没有，就不要这样做。

Why waste time?

为什么要浪费时间？

Manik Gupta: Oftentimes companies will be like, "I want to do this because some other company is doing it." That is not a good reason.

Manik Gupta：公司常常会说，“我想这样做，因为其他公司正在这样做。”这不是一个好的理由。

You should only invest in products, or projects for that matter, because you can play to your strengths and you can create some unique consumer, customer value.

你应该只投资于产品或项目，因为你可以发挥你的优势，并且可以创造一些独特的消费者、客户价值。

And by the way, you can do it better than anybody else out there.

顺便说一句，你可以比其他人做得更好。

That's what I mean by company product fit.

这就是我所说的公司产品契合度的意思。

Take that first step and understand does this even resonate and is it part of the portfolio?

迈出第一步，了解这是否会引起共鸣，它是否是投资组合的一部分？

Does it make sense?

有道理吗？

Manik Gupta: Because if you can answer that question with enough conviction, then your road to the next step on finding product market fit becomes much easier, because you don't have distractions then.

Manik Gupta：因为如果你能够以足够的信念回答这个问题，那么你下一步寻找产品市场契合度的道路就会变得容易得多，因为那时你就不会分心了。

Everybody gets it.

每个人都明白。

Everybody gets this is a strategic effort.

每个人都明白这是一项战略努力。

You have the right sponsorship at the right levels in the company, and you're executing towards it and you're finding it out.

你在公司合适的级别上得到了合适的赞助，你正在朝着这个目标执行，你正在发现它。

Let's say things don't go well.

假设事情进展不顺利。

That's okay.

没关系。

People will step in to help.

人们会介入提供帮助。

A lot of that will happen, because people innately get it.

很多这样的事情将会发生，因为人们天生就明白这一点。

That this is the right product to go after from a company product fit perspective.

从公司产品契合度的角度来看，这是值得追求的正确产品。

That's something that I've been thinking a lot about and also executing as we move forward.

这是我一直在思考并在我们前进的过程中执行的事情。

Lenny: Is there an example of that gone wrong that you can share?

莱尼：您可以分享一个错误的例子吗？

Whether it's a company you've worked at or a company you've seen do it badly.

无论是你曾经工作过的公司还是你见过做得很糟糕的公司。

Manik Gupta: I'll have to think through specific examples, but companies do this all the time, where they do these line extensions.

Manik Gupta：我必须考虑具体的例子，但公司一直在这样做，他们进行产品线延伸。

Where they'll say, "Well, we have a lot of traction in a particular segment.

他们会说：“嗯，我们在某个特定领域有很大的吸引力。

Why don't we just go to an adjacent segment?

我们为什么不直接去相邻的段呢？

If we just add two more features, suddenly this will be appealing to an adjacent segment." A classic example would be you're doing something for, I don't know, small and medium businesses and you say, "Well, now I just have to add two more features and now I'm going to go up market and I'll get to compete in the enterprise." Or it could be the other way around too, where you have something in the enterprise business and you want to suddenly go down market to SMB.

如果我们再添加两个功能，突然间这就会吸引邻近的细分市场。”一个典型的例子是，你正在为中小型企业做某事，我不知道，你会说，“好吧，现在我只需要再添加两个功能，现在我要进入高端市场，我将在企业中竞争。”或者也可能是相反的情况，你在企业业务中有一些东西，你想突然进入下游市场到中小型企业。

Manik Gupta: In my view, it's hard.

Manik Gupta：在我看来，这很难。

Because again, the capabilities that you need, the thinking that you need, is something you have to really be clear about.

因为，你需要的能力、你需要的思维，是你必须真正清楚的。

This is not to say that it will not fit in the company's portfolio.

这并不是说它不适合该公司的投资组合。

It's just that when you're making a choice like that, make sure you set it up well to succeed.

只是当你做出这样的选择时，请确保你做好了准备才能成功。

That's the other part of the equation as well.

这也是等式的另一部分。

Lenny: Speaking of setting it up to succeed, you also have this idea of a consumer stack concept that I think you've been talking about at Microsoft.

Lenny：说到成功，你也有消费者堆栈概念的想法，我想你一直在微软谈论这个想法。

Can you talk about what that's all about?

你能谈谈这到底是怎么回事吗？

Manik Gupta: Yeah, sure.

马尼克·古普塔：是的，当然。

One of the things that I'm doing at Microsoft right now is, while I'm working on a lot of the consumer communication products, the other thing that I'm really helping the company think about is how do we get more at scale consumer products built at Microsoft.

我现在在微软所做的一件事是，虽然我正在开发许多消费者通信产品，但我真正帮助公司思考的另一件事是我们如何获得更多在微软构建的大规模消费者产品。

Part of this is just distilling some of the learnings that I've had over the years.

其中一部分只是总结我多年来所学到的一些知识。

I think there are like five things that I would talk about, which I call the consumer stack, which is essentially a set of capabilities that companies need to have a good chance of success at building a consumer product.

我认为我要谈论五件事，我将其称为消费者堆栈，它本质上是公司在构建消费产品方面有很大成功机会所需的一组功能。

Remember, nobody can give a playbook to build a successful consumer product.

请记住，没有人可以提供构建成功消费产品的剧本。

That does not exist.

那是不存在的。

Because as we were discussing earlier, it's so fickle and so many things have to go right for you to build a successful consumer product.

因为正如我们之前讨论的，它是如此变化无常，很多事情都必须顺利进行才能打造出成功的消费产品。

But at least you have a set of capabilities, so you set yourself up the best.

但至少你有一套能力，所以你把自己设置为最好的。

Manik Gupta: The first one I would say is around design-led thinking to delight users.

Manik Gupta：我想说的第一点是以设计为主导的思维，以取悦用户。

Going back to your days at Airbnb, Lenny, I'm sure this is something that resonates with you.

回想一下您在 Airbnb 的日子，Lenny，我相信这会引起您的共鸣。

Design for consumer products is such a critical part of how you build the right pull from consumers these days.

如今，消费品设计是如何吸引消费者的关键部分。

Poorly designed products have no chance at this point.

设计不佳的产品在这一点上没有机会。

Your craftsmanship and the design capabilities have to be A plus.

你的工艺和设计能力必须是一个优点。

And if you don't have that, then you should really invest in that.

如果你没有，那么你应该真正投资。

This is not just about having the best designers.

这不仅仅是拥有最好的设计师的问题。

Of course you should.

当然你应该。

It's just the thinking.

这只是想法。

It's a attention to detail.

这是对细节的关注。

It's the attention to how things are pixel to pixel, moving from one screen to another screen and so on.

这是对事物如何逐个像素、如何从一个屏幕移动到另一个屏幕等的关注。

You really have to sweat it out and really be clear in terms of how it's adding value to a consumer.

你真的必须付出努力，并真正清楚它如何为消费者增加价值。

That is, I think, a core capability in these days to build a consumer product.

我认为，这是当今构建消费产品的核心能力。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Manik Gupta: Number two is strong focus and prioritization.

Manik Gupta：第二点是高度关注和优先考虑。

You can apply strong focus and prioritization to anything in life, but I think it's even more important for consumer products.

你可以对生活中的任何事情进行高度关注和优先排序，但我认为这对于消费品来说更为重要。

Because oftentimes people, when they think about solving a problem, they think about coming up with 20 features at the same time, and it's not needed.

因为通常人们在考虑解决问题时，会同时考虑提出 20 个特征，但这是没有必要的。

You don't need 20 features to solve a problem.

您不需要 20 个功能来解决一个问题。

You just need one or two features which work really well.

您只需要一两个运行良好的功能即可。

This whole concept of critical user journeys.

关键用户旅程的整个概念。

How do you make sure that, if you're solving problem X, any feature that you build in the product...

如果您正在解决问题 X，您如何确保您在产品中构建的任何功能......

Firstly your product should have very few features in the beginning.

首先，你的产品一开始应该只有很少的功能。

But even if it has those features, it should be well designed and it should have the focus and prioritization so that you're only getting things for the critical journey so that the user can use it and not get confused.

但即使它具有这些功能，它也应该经过精心设计，并且应该具有重点和优先级，以便您只获得关键旅程的内容，以便用户可以使用它而不会感到困惑。

That's the second one.

这是第二个。

Manik Gupta: Most PMs totally understand that.

Manik Gupta：大多数产品经理完全理解这一点。

That's their job description, to focus and prioritize.

这就是他们的工作描述，专注并确定优先顺序。

But I feel like a lot of times the PMs do get very confused and distracted, because the number of ideas that people have is so large that they want to just throw everything into the product, and that doesn't work.

但我觉得很多时候产品经理确实会感到非常困惑和分心，因为人们的想法如此之多，以至于他们想把所有东西都投入到产品中，但这行不通。

You have to keep a very high bar for focus and prioritization.

你必须对重点和优先顺序保持非常高的标准。

That's capability number two.

这是第二个能力。

Manik Gupta: Number three is having the right metrics and instrumentation.

Manik Gupta：第三是拥有正确的指标和工具。

This talks to the data aspect of the culture, which is, if you don't have the metric with regards to what you're optimizing for at the initial state of the product, middle state of the product, late stage of the product, you're just not going to choose the right things.

这涉及到文化的数据方面，也就是说，如果你没有关于在产品的初始状态、产品的中间状态、产品的后期阶段优化的指标，你就不会选择正确的东西。

How will you measure success?

您将如何衡量成功？

How will you convince yourself, your team, and broader stakeholders that this is actually working or not working?

您将如何说服自己、您的团队和更广泛的利益相关者这实际上有效或无效？

Having the right metrics is important, but it's incredible how many times people have the metrics but they don't instrument them.

拥有正确的指标很重要，但令人难以置信的是，有多少次人们拥有这些指标但没有对其进行测量。

They'll have all these debates, because the product is not instrumented properly.

他们会进行所有这些争论，因为该产品没有正确安装。

And everybody will talk about the same metric, but they'll have different nuances in terms of, "Oh, what does it really mean?

每个人都会谈论相同的指标，但他们在“哦，它真正意味着什么？”方面会有不同的细微差别。

What is a daily active user?

什么是日活跃用户？

Okay, daily means...

好吧，日常意味着...

Okay, I understand it's on a daily basis.

好吧，我知道这是日常工作。

What is active?" And there'll be debates about what is active.

什么是活跃的？”并且将会有关于什么是活跃的争论。

Pick a definition, instrument it, codify it.

选择一个定义，对其进行检测，对其进行编码。

No confusion.

没有混乱。

That's number three.

这是第三个。

Manik Gupta: Number four is more on the engineering side, which is how do you get to a very high ship velocity, and the ability to experiment and learn fast.

Manik Gupta：第四点更多的是在工程方面，这就是如何获得非常高的船舶速度，以及快速实验和学习的能力。

At a broader level, especially during the initial phases, if you're not learning, you are really not doing anything well.

从更广泛的层面来看，尤其是在最初阶段，如果你不学习，你真的什么都做不好。

You've got to be learning.

你必须要学习。

You've got to be learning good things, bad things, doesn't matter.

你必须学习好的东西，坏的东西，都没关系。

You've got to be learning.

你必须要学习。

Having the experimentation velocity, having a building culture where engineers are able to check in code, see the results, and then quickly come into another release and stuff like that, I think that's really important for a consumer product.

拥有实验速度，拥有一种构建文化，让工程师能够签入代码，查看结果，然后快速进入另一个版本以及类似的东西，我认为这对于消费产品来说非常重要。

Manik Gupta: Finally, underpinning all of this is just having strong talent.

Manik Gupta：最后，支撑这一切的是拥有强大的天赋。

Assess your talent; your product talent, your design talent, your data talent, your engineering talent, your marketing talent, all these functions.

评估你的才能；你的产品才能、你的设计才能、你的数据才能、你的工程才能、你的营销才能，所有这些职能。

You just have to have a talented pool of people who like to build stuff, and they're the people who understand and have the empathy for consumers.

你只需要拥有一群喜欢创造东西的人才，他们是理解消费者并具有同理心的人。

Manik Gupta: To me, I think these five capabilities...

Manik Gupta：对我来说，我认为这五种能力......

And as a leader, or product leader, or an engineering leader, or anyone who's basically responsible for running products in small company, big company, medium-sized company, it doesn't matter; if you're in the consumer space, my thinking here is that if you look at these five categories and five capabilities, you should really have a report card and say, "Okay.

作为一个领导者，或者产品领导者，或者工程领导者，或者任何在小公司、大公司、中型公司中基本上负责运行产品的人，这并不重要;如果你在消费者领域，我的想法是，如果你看看这五个类别和五种功能，你真的应该有一份成绩单并说：“好吧。

How do I rate these?" If I were to look at my own team, what do I think about design thinking?

我如何评价这些？”如果我审视自己的团队，我对设计思维有何看法？

What do I think about strong focus and prioritization?

我对高度关注和优先排序有何看法？

Are we doing an A job?

我们做的是A工作吗？

Are we doing a B job?

我们在做B工作吗？

Are doing a C job or D job?

做的是C类工作还是D类工作？

I would argue that if you get to an A job over time, because not everybody will be at A on day one, but if you get that over time, I think you will start seeing results which are very meaningful.

我认为，如果你随着时间的推移得到一份 A 级工作，因为不是每个人都会在第一天就达到 A 级工作，但如果你随着时间的推移得到 A 级工作，我认为你会开始看到非常有意义的结果。

That's how I've been thinking about the consumer stack.

这就是我一直在思考消费者堆栈的方式。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I was going to ask how you operationalize this.

我想问你如何实施这一点。

It sounds like it's going to turn into Manik's consumer stack scorecard, and bigger companies can leverage this at their own company and show their manager, "Hey, we're moving really slowly.

听起来它将变成 Manik 的消费者堆栈记分卡，大公司可以在自己的公司利用这一点并向他们的经理展示，“嘿，我们的进展非常缓慢。

Maybe this is an area we should focus before we bet big on consumer."

也许这是我们在押注消费者之前应该关注的一个领域。”

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

I'm trying to operationalize this myself right now in my current job, and I have used some version of this.

我现在正在尝试在当前的工作中亲自实施这一点，并且我已经使用了它的某些版本。

I mean, this is not something I just came up with.

我的意思是，这不是我刚刚想出来的。

It's something that has been in my mind for a while.

这是我心里已经有一段时间的事情了。

I've used it in some shape or form.

我以某种形式使用过它。

But during my break, especially before I joined Microsoft, I think this came together for me as something a little bit more tangible that I can use.

但在我休息期间，尤其是在加入微软之前，我认为这对我来说是一种更切实可行的东西。

Then I started applying it, so I think it's been pretty interesting to see.

然后我开始应用它，所以我认为它看起来很有趣。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm hoping that this proliferates through larger companies and becomes a thing that we can root back to this chat.

我希望这种做法能在更大的公司中扩散开来，并成为我们可以在这次聊天中扎根的东西。

Lenny: Shifting a little bit to the CPO role and the VP of product role that you've had at a few companies, in theory this is kind of an end state for a product leader.

Lenny：稍微转向一下你在几家公司担任过的 CPO 角色和产品副总裁角色，理论上来说，这是产品领导者的最终状态。

Every PM, if they stay down the PM career track, they'll become a CPO or VP of product or head of product somewhere.

每个 PM，如果他们留在 PM 职业轨道上，他们将成为 CPO 或产品副总裁或某个地方的产品负责人。

A couple of questions here.

这里有几个问题。

One is, do you have a sense of how many PMs actually stay on this track and end up in one of these roles, versus move on to some other role or place?

一是，您是否知道有多少 PM 实际上留在了这条轨道上并最终担任其中一个角色，而不是转到其他角色或位置？

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

That's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

I would say that the percentage for CPO in particular, you having a C title and being a CPO, I think that percentage is still relatively small.

我想说的是，特别是 CPO 的百分比，你拥有 C 头衔并且是 CPO，我认为这个百分比仍然相对较小。

This is just my sense.

这只是我的感觉。

I haven't done the numbers to give you a more accurate picture here, but I think my sense is relatively smaller.

我没有做数字来让你更准确地了解情况，但我认为我的感觉相对较小。

Because I think a large part of it depends on how companies are organized.

因为我认为这很大程度上取决于公司的组织方式。

Companies can be organized functionally, companies can be organized through business units, and oftentimes these days it's a mix of both.

公司可以按职能组织，也可以通过业务部门组织，现在通常是两者的混合。

If you look at any company, they'll have some C level functional executives, but underneath them they'll have GMs.

如果你观察任何一家公司，他们都会有一些 C 级职能高管，但在他们下面会有总经理。

The organization design is just such an evolving field always.

组织设计始终是一个不断发展的领域。

And as they say, companies will go one...

正如他们所说，公司将采取...

they'll swing the pendulum one way and they'll say, "Oh, over time it's not working," and then they'll swing the pendulum the other way and then they keep going back and forth.

他们会向一个方向摆动钟摆，然后他们会说，“哦，随着时间的推移，它不起作用了”，然后他们会向另一个方向摆动钟摆，然后他们继续来回摆动。

I think the percentage for CPO in particularly in my mind is probably not as big as what people think it is.

我认为 CPO 所占的比例，特别是在我看来，可能并不像人们想象的那么大。

Like I said, because of the way that companies are organized.

就像我说的，因为公司的组织方式。

Manik Gupta: I think the interesting thing here is I am just seeing personally, having been a CPO myself and also talking to a lot of people in my network and just observing a bunch of different companies, I think the CPO role is evolving.

Manik Gupta：我认为有趣的是，我个人看到，我自己也担任过 CPO，并且与我的网络中的很多人交谈并观察了许多不同的公司，我认为 CPO 的角色正在演变。

Or the head of product role is also evolving.

或者产品负责人的角色也在不断演变。

I think a lot of it is morphing more into the GM model where you're running not just product management but also perhaps PM and engineering, and design to a certain extent and data science too.

我认为其中很多都更多地转变为 GM 模型，在该模型中，您不仅运行产品管理，还可能运行 PM 和工程，并在一定程度上进行设计和数据科学。

You're essentially becoming the overall technical product leader at the company.

您实际上正在成为公司的整体技术产品领导者。

Manik Gupta: The reason why I feel that is happening is because it's all about accountability.

Manik Gupta：我之所以觉得这种情况发生，是因为这一切都与责任有关。

It's about who has the single threaded leadership model where this person can make all the decisions when it comes to trade offs and running the roadmaps and all of that kind of stuff.

这是关于谁拥有单线程领导模型，这个人可以在权衡和运行路线图以及所有此类事情方面做出所有决定。

It's not ideal, by the way, in all cases.

顺便说一句，在所有情况下这并不理想。

Because what that means is, for somebody to be doing that, that person has to be really, really good at all those other functions too so that everyone who is in their organization respects that.

因为这意味着，要有人这样做，这个人也必须非常非常擅长所有其他职能，以便组织中的每个人都尊重这一点。

Otherwise people feel like I'm the second class citizen in this model where this person doesn't know anything about, whatever; my function and so on.

否则人们会觉得我是这个模型中的二等公民，这个人什么都不知道，无论如何；我的功能等等。

So it's harder, but I do feel that for optimization around decision making, around having a single threaded leadership and accountability, I feel like that's the direction where the product leadership role itself is going more and more.

所以这更难，但我确实觉得，对于围绕决策、围绕单线领导和问责制的优化，我觉得这就是产品领导角色本身越来越多的发展方向。

At least based on my experience.

至少根据我的经验。

Lenny: Is your sense that maybe CPO might fade away as a title and GMs become the common path across companies?

Lenny：您是否认为 CPO 可能会随着头衔而逐渐消失，而 GM 则成为公司之间的共同路径？

Manik Gupta: If you were to push me on this, I would say that's probably the direction we will go.

Manik Gupta：如果你要逼我这么做，我会说这可能就是我们要走的方向。

I think it's interesting to also think about CTO.

我认为考虑 CTO 也很有趣。

If you look at the CTO roles versus SVP of engineering or a VP of engineering, I think it's an interesting debate too, what's happening with CTO roles.

如果你看看 CTO 角色与工程高级副总裁或工程副总裁的比较，我认为这也是一个有趣的争论，CTO 角色发生了什么。

If a company is organized purely functionally, I think that's absolutely the right call.

如果一家公司是纯粹按职能组织的，我认为这绝对是正确的选择。

But as companies are changing and thinking about how they drive more accountability and more business units and so on, I just feel it probably will become more GM oriented.

但随着公司正在改变并思考如何推动更多的责任和更多的业务部门等等，我只是觉得它可能会变得更加以通用汽车为导向。

That does not mean that the VP product is going to go away or the VP engineering is going to go away.

这并不意味着 VP 产品将会消失，或者 VP 工程将会消失。

I think those roles will still stay.

我认为这些角色仍然会保留。

But the C-level title, reporting into the CEO but you're just running that one function; if I look at over time, maybe that role is lot less prevalent than what we have right now.

但是 C 级头衔，向首席执行官汇报，但你只负责执行一项职能；如果我随着时间的推移来看，也许这个角色比我们现在的角色要少得多。

Lenny: Do you think that's partly because there's this weird overlap between CPO and CEO, and there's often tension of who's leading the product?

Lenny：您认为这部分是因为 CPO 和 CEO 之间存在奇怪的重叠，而且谁来领导产品经常存在紧张关系吗？

Is that something you've seen?

这是你见过的东西吗？

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

I think that's definitely an interesting one as well.

我认为这也绝对是一件有趣的事情。

I mean, if you think about it, just based on my experience, what does the CPO really do?

我的意思是，如果你想一想，根据我的经验，CPO 到底是做什么的？

What is their job description?

他们的工作描述是什么？

I think it's useful to think through that.

我认为思考一下这一点很有用。

Generally speaking, and again, we can always talk in generalizations because that's how you should think.

一般来说，我们总是可以概括地谈论，因为这就是你应该如何思考的。

And every company is unique.

每家公司都是独一无二的。

But generally you would say the CPO is responsible for driving the product vision for the company, and that product vision cannot be divorced from the company vision.

但一般来说，你会说 CPO 负责推动公司的产品愿景，而产品愿景不能与公司愿景分开。

Oftentimes this is actually what also creates conflict within the leadership team, where the product vision is...

通常，这实际上也会在领导团队内部造成冲突，因为产品愿景是......

people are coming up with these grandiose plans.

人们正在想出这些宏伟的计划。

Like, "Oh, we'll do this, we'll do that," but then it's not really grounded in the reality of where the company is.

就像，“哦，我们会做这个，我们会做那个”，但这并不是真正基于公司所处的现实。

Anyways, it's around product vision and making sure it's coherent with the company vision.

无论如何，它围绕产品愿景并确保其与公司愿景一致。

Manik Gupta: Then the second big part of a CPO job is execution of the roadmap on the priorities.

Manik Gupta：首席产品官工作的第二个重要部分是执行优先事项路线图。

People sometimes think that, hey, I get to a C-level position.

人们有时会想，嘿，我得到了 C 级职位。

I don't have to worry about execution.

我不用担心执行的问题。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

If you're a CPO in particular, even the CTO and the head of engineering, execution matters a lot.

特别是如果您是 CPO，甚至是 CTO 和工程主管，那么执行力就非常重要。

The operational excellence.

卓越的运营。

Because things are so complex.

因为事情是如此复杂。

I mean, we are in a situation where a lot of people are working remotely, there are all these different tool sets, there are all these different technologies that are coming up, you have different competitors.

我的意思是，我们所处的情况是，很多人都在远程工作，有所有这些不同的工具集，有所有这些不同的技术正在出现，你有不同的竞争对手。

Execution is super important.

执行力超级重要。

And if people don't understand that that's a big part of their job when they get to the senior level, I think they're mistaken.

如果人们在晋升到高层后不明白这是他们工作的重要组成部分，我认为他们就错了。

The execution is another one.

执行是另一回事。

Manik Gupta: The third is, for a CPO, especially for a tech company, because you are really driving the product roadmap, it's a very leveraged job.

Manik Gupta：第三个是，对于 CPO 来说，尤其是对于一家科技公司来说，因为你真正在推动产品路线图，所以这是一项杠杆作用非常大的工作。

Meaning you have to really work with all your other peers, whether the marketing person, or the sales person, or the business unit person and so on, and just make sure that you are really even deeply connected in terms of what is really needed, so that your product roadmap is how things are going to actually come to life.

这意味着你必须真正与所有其他同事合作，无论是营销人员、销售人员还是业务部门人员等等，并确保你们在真正需要的方面真正深入地联系在一起，这样你的产品路线图才能真正实现。

It's a very cross-functional, on steroids kind of job in that sense.

从这个意义上说，这是一项非常跨职能的工作。

Manik Gupta: In terms of the CEO, CPO, I think the important thing again is...

Manik Gupta：就首席执行官、首席产品官而言，我认为重要的是……

And this is actually advice I've given to CEOs of some companies as well, when they first start looking for a VP of product or a CPO.

这实际上也是我在一些公司的首席执行官第一次开始寻找产品副总裁或首席产品官时给他们的建议。

This is almost like a questionnaire that I give them.

这几乎就像我给他们的一份调查问卷。

The first question I ask the CEO is, what do you want to do?

我问CEO的第一个问题是，你想做什么？

That's the most important question.

这是最重要的问题。

Because a lot of times the CEO has either been the technical founder, or they have been the product founder.

因为很多时候首席执行官要么是技术创始人，要么是产品创始人。

They can be a sales founder too.

他们也可以成为销售创始人。

All that is fine.

一切都很好。

But what do you want to spend your time on?

但你想把时间花在什么事情上呢？

Because if you are going to get a CPO or a VP of product and then still want to own the product roadmap and own the execution, then don't do that.

因为如果你要获得首席产品官或产品副总裁，然后仍然想拥有产品路线图并拥有执行力，那么就不要这样做。

Because what is that person going to do?

因为那个人要做什么？

That's the first question that I tend to clarify between a CEO who's looking for a CPO or VP of product.

这是我在寻找首席产品官或产品副总裁的首席执行官之间要澄清的第一个问题。

Manik Gupta: Then the other thing is really about, are you trying to optimize for process?

Manik Gupta：那么另一件事就是，您是否正在尝试优化流程？

Are you optimizing for strategy?

您正在优化策略吗？

Are you optimizing for team building and attraction?

您是否正在针对团队建设和吸引力进行优化？

I think that's a really big one.

我认为这是一个非常大的问题。

Sometimes you have to get the right level of leader to attract more talent to the team.

有时你必须找到合适级别的领导才能吸引更多人才加入团队。

Because people say, "Oh, this person is working there.

因为人们会说：“哦，这个人在那里工作。

Now I want to go work in their organization." How do you think about engineering and data science and design?

现在我想去他们的组织工作。”您如何看待工程、数据科学和设计？

How do you think about GM and operations?

您如何看待总经理和运营？

There are a bunch of all these things in terms of the design that you need to do before you decide whether VP of product, CPO is somebody you want to get and what kind of person you want to get.

在决定产品副总裁、首席产品官是否是你想要的人以及你想要什么样的人之前，你需要做很多设计方面的事情。

Manik Gupta: I think that's where the intersection of the work between this...

Manik Gupta：我认为这就是这两者之间工作的交叉点……

especially for a tech company, the CEO, CPO have to be...

尤其是对于一家科技公司来说，CEO、CPO 必须......

And even the CTO I would throw in the mix.

甚至 CTO 我也会加入其中。

That has to be very clearly articulated, otherwise it creates a lot of confusion.

必须非常清楚地阐明这一点，否则会造成很多混乱。

Those are some of the things, at least that I observe from different patterns and different companies that I've worked with and also guided and advised, those are things that always come up.

这些是其中一些事情，至少是我从与我合作过、指导和建议的不同模式和不同公司中观察到的，这些事情总是会出现。

Lenny: It's interesting how much similarity there is to that experience as there is to the first PM at a company.

Lenny：有趣的是，这段经历与公司第一位 PM 的经历有很多相似之处。

It feels like they have to have the same conversations with the founder.

感觉他们必须与创始人进行同样的对话。

What do you want to work on?

你想从事什么工作？

What am I going to take on?

我要承担什么？

How do we avoid stepping on each other's toes the whole time?

我们怎样才能避免一直踩到对方的脚趾呢？

Manik Gupta: That's actually a...

Manik Gupta：这实际上是......

I never thought about it that way, Lenny.

我从来没有这样想过，莱尼。

I think that's a really good point.

我认为这是一个很好的观点。

You're totally right.

你完全正确。

Obviously, if you're at a bigger company, then you're looking for a VP of product.

显然，如果您在一家更大的公司，那么您正在寻找产品副总裁。

Or if you're a super big company, then you're looking for a CPO.

或者，如果您是一家超级大公司，那么您正在寻找 CPO。

But you're right.

但你是对的。

The first product hire that you make as a founder, you'll pretty much have the same conversations to ensure that there are clear swim lanes and accountability for that group.

作为创始人，您在雇用第一个产品时，您将进行几乎相同的对话，以确保该团队有清晰的泳道和责任。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

I want to make sure to ask you, as kind of a big deal leader of product at larger companies, I'm curious, what do you look for in PMs that are looking to get promoted, or just deciding somebody's ready for promotion or ready for more responsibility?

我想确保问你，作为大公司产品的大宗领导者，我很好奇，你在寻求晋升的产品经理中寻找什么，或者只是决定某人是否已准备好晋升或准备好承担更多责任？

What do you look for and what should people focus on if they want to come across as promotion material?

如果人们想作为宣传材料，您会寻找什么？人们应该关注什么？

Manik Gupta: I'm a big fan of looking at both the what and the how.

Manik Gupta：我非常热衷于研究内容和方式。

So what did they accomplish and how did they accomplish.

那么他们完成了什么以及如何完成的。

Because they're a package.

因为它们是一个包。

And if you just look at one versus the other, then I think you end up making a mistake.

如果你只看其中之一与另一个，那么我认为你最终会犯错误。

Usually.

通常。

On the what, I think the what is usually more objective.

关于什么，我认为什么通常更客观。

What I look for...

我在寻找什么...

And again, it depends on the level of the person.

再说一遍，这取决于人的水平。

Don't try to calibrate someone based early in their career.

不要试图在职业生涯的早期校准某人。

You have to think through that.

你必须想清楚这一点。

That they're in learning phase.

他们正处于学习阶段。

If they're more senior than you have to of course calibrate them differently.

如果他们比你更资深，当然必须以不同的方式校准他们。

But ultimately, if I were to boil it down on the what, it's really about real demonstrated impact.

但归根结底，如果我把它归结为“什么”，那就是真正的实际影响。

An ideal example is someone who had a strong product hypothesis, they rallied a bunch of people around them.

一个理想的例子是某人拥有强大的产品假设，他们在周围聚集了一群人。

They may not have come up with the hypothesis.

他们可能没有提出这个假设。

That's fine.

没关系。

Somebody else could have come up with it, it doesn't matter.

别人可能会想出来，这并不重要。

But they believed in it, they rallied the team behind it, they drove towards it and created impact.

但他们相信这一点，他们聚集了背后的团队，他们朝着这个目标前进并创造了影响。

Manik Gupta: The impact not necessarily always has to be positive.

Manik Gupta：影响不一定总是积极的。

It could also be a lot of stuff that we learned, but we learned from it and then we moved on and we did the next rev.

这也可能是我们学到的很多东西，但我们从中学到了东西，然后我们继续前进，我们做了下一个版本。

By the time we did the next rev, we were smarter about it.

当我们进行下一轮时，我们对此更加聪明。

Clear demonstrated impact from an end to end product cycle to me is probably one of the better indicators of readiness for someone to take on more.

对我来说，端到端产品周期的清晰展示的影响可能是某人是否准备好承担更多责任的更好指标之一。

And you basically want to give them more, because now they have a pattern of doing things properly.

你基本上想给他们更多，因为现在他们有了正确做事的模式。

That's one.

这是一个。

Manik Gupta: On the how, I just love people who are able to create both energy and create clarity.

Manik Gupta：关于如何做，我只是喜欢那些能够创造能量和创造清晰度的人。

Think of the flip side.

想想另一面。

PMs who don't create clarity is such a time sink and the teams struggle so much.

不明确思路的产品经理会浪费时间，团队也会陷入困境。

I'm sure all of us, when we think about back in the day, maybe we were in that position at some point.

我相信我们所有人，当我们回想过去的时候，也许我们在某个时刻也曾处于那样的境地。

But we also worked with folks who were always confused and didn't really summarize, or didn't really follow up, or didn't really create that level of clarity in terms of what we need to do and so on, and how broken that felt.

但我们也与那些总是感到困惑、没有真正总结、没有真正跟进、或者没有真正明确我们需要做什么等方面的人一起工作，以及那种感觉有多么破碎。

People who can create the clarity and then have the energy around them to get things done, I think that's the how in my opinion.

那些能够创造清晰的思路，然后有精力把事情做好的人，我认为这就是我的看法。

Which is really important for determining somebody's career trajectory.

这对于确定某人的职业轨迹非常重要。

Manik Gupta: Then the last thing I would say is followership.

Manik Gupta：那么我要说的最后一件事就是追随力。

Really important for PMs.

对于 PM 来说确实很重要。

Do people want to work with them?

人们愿意和他们一起工作吗？

Do people at some point, as they go up and become more senior, do people want to work for them?

人们在某个时候，当他们晋升并变得更高级时，人们是否愿意为他们工作？

Ultimately people make choices.

最终人们做出选择。

And if you have a bunch of smart people and they're making smart choices and they're choosing this person to follow or to be with and work with them and reach out to them, and you keep hearing things about, hey, so and so wants to work with this person because this person is amazing; there is a ton of value in that.

如果你有一群聪明的人，他们正在做出明智的选择，他们选择这个人来跟随他们或与他们一起工作，并与他们接触，你不断听到这样的事情，嘿，某某想要与这个人一起工作，因为这个人很棒;这有很大的价值。

Manik Gupta: Those are the three things that, if I were to really boil it down, not looking at a certain level, I think I always look for those attributes.

马尼克·古普塔：如果我真的把它归结为三件事，而不是在某个层面上看，我想我总是在寻找这些属性。

Lenny: Those are awesome.

莱尼：那些太棒了。

So simple and clear and succinct.

如此简单、清晰、简洁。

I like the way that you framed it as followership versus leadership.

我喜欢你将其定义为追随者与领导力的方式。

There's a lot of PM attributes leadership, and there's something really nice about just a way to understand that as how many people are following you and excited to work on the things that you're trying to get them to work on.

PM 有很多属性属于领导力，并且有一种非常好的方式来理解这一点，因为有多少人在追随你，并兴奋地从事你试图让他们做的事情。

That's very cool.

太酷了。

Lenny: Along the same lines, when you think about PMs that had an inflection point in their career, do you find that there's anything correlated with something that leads to a large inflection in the progress of someone's career where they all of a sudden started doing incredibly better?

Lenny：同样，当你想到在职业生涯中遇到拐点的产品经理时，你是否发现有什么东西与导致某人职业生涯进展发生巨大拐点的事情相关，使他们突然开始做得非常好？

Manik Gupta: I've gone through a few inflection points myself, and almost always they've happened because something in the organization changed, so I got a shot.

马尼克·古普塔：我自己也经历过一些拐点，它们的发生几乎总是因为组织中发生了一些变化，所以我有机会。

There's always that luck factor, going back to the first question that we discussed.

总是有运气因素，回到我们讨论的第一个问题。

Manik Gupta: But generally speaking, I think the inflection points happen in two places.

Manik Gupta：但总的来说，我认为拐点发生在两个地方。

One is when someone has really successfully changed the dynamic, or the trajectory rather, of a particular product.

一种是某人真正成功地改变了特定产品的动态，或者更确切地说是轨迹。

That's a huge inflection point.

这是一个巨大的拐点。

That doesn't happen very often, to be fair.

公平地说，这种情况并不经常发生。

But when it happens, you know it.

但当它发生时，你就知道了。

You know, as a leader, this person worked on this and they actually led this change and now we are playing a different game.

你知道，作为领导者，这个人致力于此，他们实际上领导了这一变革，现在我们正在玩不同的游戏。

We are playing a bigger game, we are playing a different game, all of that kind of stuff.

我们正在玩一个更大的游戏，我们正在玩一个不同的游戏，所有这些东西。

Manik Gupta: In other words, what I'm saying is the inflection point for a career is correlated strongly with the inflection point in the product.

Manik Gupta：换句话说，我的意思是职业的拐点与产品的拐点密切相关。

If you can connect those, the cause and effect...

如果你能把它们联系起来，因果关系......

If there's causality and not just correlation, if there's causality in that, I think that absolutely means that you've got a winner.

如果存在因果关系而不仅仅是相关性，如果其中存在因果关系，我认为这绝对意味着你赢了。

And you really want to bet on them and you have to give them a lot more to do, because they have the ability to do it.

你真的想把赌注押在他们身上，你必须给他们更多的事情去做，因为他们有能力做到这一点。

That's one.

这是一个。

Manik Gupta: The second is, oftentimes as people go up in their career, they start managing teams.

Manik Gupta：第二个是，通常随着人们职业生涯的上升，他们开始管理团队。

They become a manager, and then you become a manager of managers, and then you become more senior.

他们成为经理，然后你成为经理中的经理，然后你变得更高。

I mean, that's the organizational trajectory that happens.

我的意思是，这就是所发生的组织轨迹。

One inflection point that I've seen is, when you go from being a manager, a first line manager, to becoming a manager of managers, and if you're able to navigate that with very strong effectiveness, then you know.

我看到的一个拐点是，当你从一名经理、一线经理转变为经理的经理时，如果你能够以非常高的效率驾驭这一点，那么你就知道了。

If you're their manager or if you're their leader you know this person has got their act together.

如果你是他们的经理或者领导，你就知道这个人已经行动一致了。

Because managing ICs is so different from managing managers, because then you now need to create a structure.

因为管理 IC 与管理管理者有很大不同，因为那样你现在需要创建一个结构。

You need to be able to determine how much you delegate.

您需要能够确定您授权的程度。

How do you coach?

你如何执教？

How do coach your managers to do the right thing?

如何指导你的经理做正确的事情？

If you see somebody making that transition effectively...

如果你看到有人有效地进行了这种转变......

And you have to give them some time, but if you see that and you know that they're actually doing it, and again, a lot of followership, a lot of other things are happening, good things are happening, then you know they're at that inflection point where they're ready to take on more.

你必须给他们一些时间，但如果你看到这一点，你知道他们实际上正在这样做，而且，很多追随者，很多其他事情正在发生，好事正在发生，那么你就知道他们正处于拐点，他们准备好承担更多。

Manik Gupta: Both product inflection in terms of real output and this management prowess inflection in terms of being able to effectively lead going from one step to another, a manager to becoming a manager of managers; I think those are the two places where I feel like, if I see somebody doing well, I know they're ready to put more onto them.

马尼克·古普塔（Manik Gupta）：产品的实际产出变化和管理能力的变化都体现在能够有效地领导从一个步骤到另一个步骤，从一名经理变成一名经理的经理；我认为在这两个方面，我觉得如果我看到有人做得很好，我就知道他们已经准备好投入更多。

Lenny: Do you find that second piece is this filter for PMs that do well in this manager manager role and go on to do better and better and then a lot just fall away because they can't handle that?

Lenny：你是否发现第二部分是针对在经理经理角色中表现出色并继续做得越来越好的 PM 的过滤器，然后很多人因为无法处理而放弃？

Manik Gupta: Yeah, I think so.

马尼克·古普塔：是的，我想是的。

Maybe I'm a little bit more traditionist on this point.

也许在这一点上我更传统一点。

I know there are other schools of thought on this, which I respect.

我知道对此还有其他的思想流派，我对此表示尊重。

Which is there are a lot of times where people are like, "Well, oftentimes the best PMs are PMs who are IC PMs.

很多时候人们会说，“嗯，通常最好的 PM 都是 IC PM。

They have this crazy, incredible, unbounded energy and they don't want to waste their time on management and whatnot and do that.

他们拥有疯狂、难以置信、无限的能量，他们不想把时间浪费在管理之类的事情上。

Because a large part of a PM's job, by the way, is managing by influence.

顺便说一下，因为产品经理的大部分工作就是通过影响力进行管理。

PMs typically don't have large organizations.

产品经理通常没有大型组织。

In fact, one of the most leveraged teams in almost every company...

事实上，几乎每家公司中杠杆率最高的团队之一......

Because you talk about PM manage ratios, PM design ratios, they're never one-ish to one, or one-ish to five, or one-ish to six.

因为你谈论 PM 管理比率、PM 设计比率，它们从来不是一比一、一比五、或者一比六。

Sometimes it' going to be one-ish to 10.

有时它会是一到十。

At Google it used to be one-ish to eight to one-ish to 10.

在谷歌，它曾经是一比八到一比十。

Manik Gupta: I personally see that transition...

Manik Gupta：我个人看到了这种转变......

If somebody's making that transition successfully and they're getting good scores out of it and delivering the product and the output of the team is significant, I definitely see that as a good filter criteria for someone whom we can bet on.

如果有人成功地完成了这一转变，并且他们从中获得了良好的分数，并且交付了产品，并且团队的产出是显着的，那么我绝对认为这是我们可以押注的人的一个很好的过滤标准。

Lenny: Do you find there's common habits or pitfalls PMs make to shoot themselves in the foot in their career, especially early on?

Lenny：您是否发现 PM 在其职业生涯中（尤其是早期）会搬起石头砸自己的脚？

Manik Gupta: Oh, I see that all the time.

Manik Gupta：哦，我一直都看到这一点。

There's a few of the things that I have picked up.

有一些东西是我捡到的。

And by the way, I was doing this too early on and I learned the hard way.

顺便说一句，我做这件事太早了，而且我也经历了惨痛的教训。

The first one I would talk about is you are early in your career and everyone expects you to just manage things and manage the process and all of that.

我要谈的第一个问题是，你还处于职业生涯的早期，每个人都希望你能够管理事情、管理流程等等。

Make sure that trains are running on time and all of that.

确保火车准时运行等等。

Which, by the way, is really important for an early in career PM to understand.

顺便说一句，对于职业生涯早期的产品经理来说，理解这一点非常重要。

That that's actually a big part of your job.

这实际上是你工作的重要组成部分。

Let's not over glamorize a PM.

我们不要过分美化PM。

A large part of being a PM initially is just basically doing whatever the team needs you to do.

最初成为 PM 的很大一部分就是基本上做团队需要你做的任何事情。

But I think one of the pitfalls of that is, if you start putting process over progress, that's a problem.

但我认为其中的陷阱之一是，如果你开始将过程置于进步之上，那就是一个问题。

Manik Gupta: What I mean by that is, you want to introduce process into almost everything that the team does and not be flexible on shipping things out there and all the things that can come in the way of progress.

Manik Gupta：我的意思是，你想要将流程引入到团队所做的几乎所有事情中，而不是在交付东西以及所有可能阻碍进展的事情上保持灵活性。

If process is helping progress, great.

如果流程有助于进步，那就太好了。

But if process is hurting progress, you should not be the person saying, "No, no, no, no. We can't do it, because I'm just so married to the process.

但如果流程阻碍了进步，你不应该说：“不，不，不，不。我们做不到，因为我太喜欢这个过程了。

Because as a PM, that's what I own." I mean, as a PM you don't write code typically, you don't write design specs, you write product specs.

因为作为一名产品经理，这就是我所拥有的。”我的意思是，作为一名产品经理，你通常不会编写代码，你不会编写设计规范，你会编写产品规范。

Sometimes you feel like, what is the set of attributes that I own?

有时你会想，我拥有的属性集是什么？

Especially early in career PMs.

尤其是职业经理人职业生涯的早期。

And you're like, "I own this process.

你会说，“我拥有这个过程。

I own this weekly standup meeting, or I own this sprint planning, or whatever." And then you get so married to it that you forget the fact that that's just a means to an end and the end is what you're going to be actually measured on.

我负责每周的站立会议，或者我负责这个冲刺计划，或者其他什么。”然后你就沉迷其中，以至于忘记了这样一个事实：这只是达到目的的一种手段，而最终才是你真正衡量的标准。

That's one mistake that I see people making early on.

这是我看到人们很早就犯的一个错误。

Manik Gupta: The second one is becoming really too self-centered.

Manik Gupta：第二个是变得非常以自我为中心。

It's all about me, not the team.

这都是关于我的，而不是团队的。

I'm the PM.

我是总理。

There's this myth that keeps going around.

有这样一个神话一直流传。

The PM is the CEO of the product.

PM 是产品的首席执行官。

That's one of the most incorrect things in the world.

这是世界上最错误的事情之一。

The PM is an enabler.

PM 是推动者。

I said earlier, it's a leverage job.

我之前说过，这是一项杠杆工作。

Your job is to really make the team successful.

你的工作是真正让团队取得成功。

Of course you have to have the product thinking and the roadmap and all of that, but sometimes this can go to their head.

当然，你必须有产品思维和路线图等等，但有时这可能会冲昏他们的头脑。

Then people become too self-centered and that's a red flag.

然后人们就会变得过于以自我为中心，这是一个危险信号。

Manik Gupta: Then the third one would be just not admitting your mistakes or learning from them.

Manik Gupta：那么第三个就是不承认自己的错误或从中吸取教训。

Early in career, the only thing you should optimize for is learning.

在职业生涯的早期，你唯一应该优化的就是学习。

Sure, you'll make a lot of mistakes.

当然，你会犯很多错误。

You don't know much yet.

你还不太了解。

You're just coming into this journey and you should be humble and you should be learning and you should be saying, "Oops, I screwed up over here." And that's okay.

你刚刚踏上这段旅程，你应该保持谦虚，你应该学习，你应该说，“哎呀，我在这里搞砸了。”没关系。

That's fine.

没关系。

And by the way, if you work in a company where that is not accepted, you should not work in that company.

顺便说一句，如果您在一家不接受这一点的公司工作，您就不应该在该公司工作。

What's the point?

有什么意义？

You should really be optimizing for learning and learning from other people.

你真的应该优化学习并向其他人学习。

And people should be saying, "Yeah, don't worry.

人们应该说：“是的，别担心。

It's okay.

没关系。

You made the mistake.

你犯了错误。

Learn from it.

从中学习。

Don't make the mistake again.

不要再犯错误了。

That's fine." But that's the kind of culture you want to choose for yourself.

没关系。”但这就是你想要为自己选择的文化。

Manik Gupta: Those are the three pitfalls that I see people get into, especially early on in their career.

Manik Gupta：这是我看到人们陷入的三个陷阱，尤其是在职业生涯的早期。

Lenny: You touched on how different companies work in different ways and look for different things in different PMs.

Lenny：您谈到了不同的公司如何以不同的方式工作，并在不同的产品经理身上寻找不同的东西。

And something I wanted to ask you is just to chat a bit about the difference between working at Google versus Uber versus Microsoft as a PM, and also just generally how product is built differently at these companies.

我想问你的只是想谈谈在谷歌工作、在优步工作、在微软工作作为产品经理之间的区别，以及这些公司的产品构建方式有何不同。

It's something I'm trying to do with this podcast as much as possible.

这是我试图通过这个播客尽可能做到的事情。

Just give an overview of what product is like at different companies.

只需概述一下不同公司的产品情况即可。

You've worked at three of the biggest, and so I'm curious to hear what you can share around that.

您曾在三个最大的公司工作过，所以我很想听听您能就此分享什么。

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

It's actually really interesting.

这实际上非常有趣。

I mean, all the three companies are so different.

我的意思是，这三个公司都很不同。

Google, the core DNA of the company was very much engineering.

谷歌公司的核心DNA非常注重工程学。

In fact, there used to be a framework which was around technology insights drive innovation.

事实上，曾经有一个围绕技术洞察力驱动创新的框架。

It was always about what is the best tech we can come up with, which is going to indeed drive innovation, and have a longish view so that the market will get there.

问题始终是关于我们能想出的最好的技术是什么，这确实会推动创新，并有长远的眼光，以便市场能够实现这一目标。

That was the Google philosophy always.

这始终是谷歌的理念。

As a PM, your job at Google...

作为产品经理，您在 Google 的工作...

It might have changed in the last six, seven years that I've not been there, but at least when I was there from 2008 to 2015, especially working on Google Maps, it was all about how do you take good long-term bets grounded in strong technical insights, and then use the power of Google Search distribution to really get your product out there.

在过去的六、七年里，我没有去过那里，情况可能已经发生了变化，但至少当我从 2008 年到 2015 年在那里时，尤其是在 Google 地图上工作时，一切都是关于如何基于强大的技术洞察力进行良好的长期赌注，然后利用 Google 搜索分发的力量来真正推出您的产品。

That was it.

就是这样。

Manik Gupta: On the Maps team, our innovation was pretty much around crowdsourcing everyone's location signals for traffic.

Manik Gupta：在地图团队中，我们的创新主要围绕众包每个人的交通位置信号。

Huge, huge accomplishment.

巨大的、巨大的成就。

We had the best traffic models in the world.

我们拥有世界上最好的流量模型。

And then being able to do this crazy route optimization for driving directions.

然后能够对行车路线进行疯狂的路线优化。

Then on top of that, we had the search stack, which came from Google Search anyway.

除此之外，我们还有搜索堆栈，无论如何它都来自 Google 搜索。

So that you can search for any address, any business and so on.

这样你就可以搜索任何地址、任何企业等等。

Manik Gupta: Anyway, as a PM it was partnering very closely with engineers and really amplifying the engineer's ideas and so on.

Manik Gupta：无论如何，作为产品经理，它与工程师密切合作，并真正放大了工程师的想法等等。

I think at that point also a lot of Google PMs were very technical.

我认为当时很多 Google 产品经理都非常技术化。

Very, very technical.

非常非常技术性。

Because that was just part for the course.

因为那只是课程的一部分。

It was expected that you will be able to at least have engineering discussions.

预计您至少能够进行工程讨论。

A large part of what I did as a PM at Google, especially initially, was getting into the technical details with my engineers and really geeking out on what we can do.

我作为谷歌产品经理所做的很大一部分工作，尤其是最初，就是与我的工程师一起研究技术细节，并真正探索我们能做什么。

That was the Google model.

这就是谷歌的模式。

Manik Gupta: By the way, one thing I should say about Google before I go to...

Manik Gupta：顺便说一句，在我去之前我应该说一件事关于谷歌......

At Google as a PM, at least all the way up to the time even when I became a director, I never had to think about business models, man.

在谷歌担任产品经理，至少一直到我成为董事时，我从来不需要考虑商业模式，伙计。

Never.

绝不。

It was fascinating.

这很令人着迷。

You were in this weird state where you could just build and have the consumer traction and all of that, but you never thought about P&L, never thought about revenue and so on.

你处于一种奇怪的状态，你可以建立并吸引消费者的吸引力等等，但你从未考虑过损益表，从未考虑过收入等等。

Manik Gupta: Then I landed at Uber, which was very different.

Manik Gupta：然后我加入了 Uber，这是非常不同的。

Uber was very operations, very business driven, very P&L.

Uber 非常注重运营，非常注重业务驱动，非常注重损益表。

In fact, one of the most incredible things that Uber did was they had a dashboard which every employee in the company could look at, and it had last week's revenue, last week's number of trips that we did, and you could slice and dice it and all of that.

事实上，Uber 所做的最令人难以置信的事情之一是他们有一个仪表板，公司的每个员工都可以查看，它有上周的收入，上周我们所做的行程数量，你可以对它进行切片和切块等等。

I think that changed over time as we became a public company and so on.

我认为随着时间的推移，随着我们成为一家上市公司等，情况发生了变化。

But the point was that it was really in your face all the time.

但重点是它确实一直在你面前。

When there were weekly newsletters sent out, it was all about growth, it was all about business, all of that kind of stuff.

当每周发送时事通讯时，一切都是关于增长，都是关于业务，所有诸如此类的事情。

It was very operational and business, so as a PM over there it was a lot about managing a bunch more stakeholders.

它非常具有运营性和商业性，因此作为那里的 PM，需要管理更多的利益相关者。

The operations teams, the marketing teams, the policy teams and so on.

运营团队、营销团队、政策团队等等。

And how do you work with them to deploy your product into each of these markets.

以及您如何与他们合作将您的产品部署到每个市场。

Of course then a large chunk of your work was still working with the engineering team.

当然，你的大部分工作仍然是与工程团队合作。

It was different in that sense.

从这个意义上来说，它是不同的。

Manik Gupta: I think at Uber the other thing was it was also much more of a real time business.

Manik Gupta：我认为在 Uber，另一件事是它也更像是一项实时业务。

I mean, Google was also real time.

我的意思是，谷歌也是实时的。

Google Maps was real time.

谷歌地图是实时的。

Billions of users were using it.

数十亿用户正在使用它。

But Uber was...

但优步是...

every day there was something going on in the market and you had to keep on that hustle in terms of how do you make sure that your staying competitive, your product is working well, there are no outages.

市场上每天都会发生一些事情，你必须继续努力，确保你保持竞争力，你的产品运行良好，不会出现中断。

All of that kind of stuff was really important.

所有这些事情都非常重要。

Manik Gupta: Then finally, on Microsoft...

Manik Gupta：最后，关于微软......

I mean, Microsoft has been around for quite a while.

我的意思是，微软已经存在很长一段时间了。

The company went through so many different things and then over the last several years, especially under Satya's leadership, it has done so well.

该公司经历了很多不同的事情，但在过去的几年里，特别是在萨蒂亚的领导下，它做得非常好。

Incredibly well in terms of how the company has changed the culture, the kind of products that they have in the market, the traction they have in the market.

就公司如何改变文化、市场上的产品类型以及市场吸引力而言，效果非常好。

Manik Gupta: I think I would describe Microsoft as both...

Manik Gupta：我想我会将微软描述为......

first and foremost, it's a very strong tech company.

首先，它是一家非常强大的科技公司。

The engineers here are incredible.

这里的工程师令人难以置信。

Oh my God.

我的天啊。

I am so privileged to work with some of the best engineers that I've worked with in my career.

我很荣幸能与我职业生涯中合作过的一些最优秀的工程师一起工作。

At the same time there's a lot of legacy.

与此同时，还有很多遗产。

There are a lot of products that have been around for a really long time, which is good and bad.

有很多产品已经存在很长时间了，有好有坏。

The good part is that they have seen pretty much every pattern there is to see.

好的部分是他们几乎已经看到了所有可以看到的模式。

In fact, they came up with a lot of those patterns themselves.

事实上，他们自己想出了很多这样的模式。

The bad part sometimes can be that change is hard.

不好的部分有时可能是改变很难。

How do you convince people that we're going to go down a different path?

你如何让人们相信我们将走一条不同的道路？

As a PM, a lot of it is around bringing outside in perspective, bringing clarity of like, "Hey, this is how it has actually worked somewhere else." Bring a specific example.

作为一名产品经理，很多工作都是围绕引入外界的观点，带来清晰的信息，比如“嘿，这就是它在其他地方的实际运作方式。”举个具体例子。

Let's try it out and see how that works.

让我们尝试一下，看看效果如何。

Manik Gupta: The final thing I would say about it is the company is so grounded in trust.

Manik Gupta：我要说的最后一件事是，公司是建立在信任基础上的。

If there's one word that I would say about Microsoft is trust.

如果要用一个词来形容微软，那就是信任。

They really care a lot about customers.

他们真的非常关心客户。

Customers trust Microsoft a lot.

客户非常信任微软。

I've been in some of the customer meetings myself and I can totally hear what customers say.

我自己参加过一些客户会议，我完全可以听到客户的意见。

It's all about trust.

这一切都与信任有关。

They expect resilience, they expect the products to work, and they expect that when they have a problem on the surface, that Microsoft will take care of it.

他们期望有弹性，他们期望产品能够工作，他们期望当他们遇到表面问题时，微软会解决它。

They built that over time.

他们随着时间的推移建立了它。

A lot of that goes into your mind as a PM when you're working in that company, that a lot of the stuff that we are doing here is to really help our customers.

当你在那家公司工作时，作为一名产品经理，你会想到很多事情，我们在这里所做的很多事情都是为了真正帮助我们的客户。

Lenny: Going back to your point about company-product fit, these cultures and the way they work just fits perfectly with the thing they end up building.

莱尼：回到你关于公司产品契合度的观点，这些文化和他们的工作方式与他们最终构建的东西完美契合。

I wonder which one comes first.

我想知道哪一个先出现。

Manik Gupta: It's true.

马尼克·古普塔：确实如此。

That's a whole nother conversation we can have at some point.

这是我们在某个时候可以进行的另一场对话。

I have a lot of thoughts on that.

对此我有很多想法。

But I'll just echo what you just said, which is that's the reason why it's so important for companies, when they embark on new initiatives, to be really, really thoughtful.

但我只是重复你刚才所说的，这就是为什么对于公司来说，当他们开始新的举措时，要真正非常深思熟虑是如此重要。

Is this the right area for us to get into?

这是我们进入的正确领域吗？

Or rather, what are the conditions and the reasons why we are getting into something?

或者更确切地说，我们从事某件事的条件和原因是什么？

We have to be super clear on that.

我们必须非常清楚这一点。

Because if the starting conditions are not right, then you will just trash the team.

因为如果起始条件不合适，那么你只会毁掉球队。

The team will keep working on something and people will never find the right internal fit.

团队会继续致力于某些事情，但人们永远找不到合适的内部契合者。

So that's super important.

所以这非常重要。

Lenny: You worked on Google Maps and Uber, which I imagine you still use often and maybe billions of people use every day.

Lenny：你曾参与过 Google 地图和 Uber 的工作，我想你现在仍然经常使用它们，也许每天都有数十亿人使用它们。

Is there a feature that you wish that you built back when you were on the team, or that you think should be killed, that annoys you about either of those products?

是否有一个功能是您希望在您加入团队时重新构建的，或者您认为应该被删除的，但它却让您对这些产品感到恼火？

Manik Gupta: Wow.

马尼克·古普塔：哇。

Okay.

好的。

This is a super interesting one.

这是一个超级有趣的。

I don't know if that's something that I could have built at Google Maps, but one of the things that's interesting is the self-driving technology has just not gotten there fast enough.

我不知道这是否是我可以在谷歌地图上构建的东西，但有趣的事情之一是自动驾驶技术还不够快。

I feel like the best and brightest actually worked on it and are still working on it and it will get there.

我觉得最优秀、最聪明的人确实在努力，并且仍在努力，它一定会实现的。

I'm a big believer.

我是一个坚定的信徒。

But of course the timelines have shifted for various reasons, because it is a really hard problem.

但当然，由于各种原因，时间表已经发生了变化，因为这是一个非常困难的问题。

It's actually really interesting to see what Cruise is doing right now in SF.

看看克鲁斯现在在旧金山做什么真的很有趣。

They have started the pilots and so on, so I'm really happy to see some progress happening.

他们已经开始了试点等工作，所以我很高兴看到一些进展正在发生。

I know Waymo's been doing a bunch of this already.

我知道 Waymo 已经做了很多这样的事情。

Manik Gupta: But it would've been amazing.

Manik Gupta：但这真是太棒了。

One of the things that we used to talk about all the time at Google on Maps was how would we design a navigation product when people are in self-driving cars?

我们在谷歌地图上经常讨论的一件事是，当人们乘坐自动驾驶汽车时，我们将如何设计导航产品？

We had some really interesting ideas at that point, but we never got to it.

当时我们有一些非常有趣的想法，但我们从未付诸实践。

Not because we didn't prioritize it, but the technology isn't there.

不是因为我们没有优先考虑它，而是因为技术不存在。

I still keep a close watch on that and see at what point are we going to get there.

我仍然密切关注这一点，看看我们什么时候能到达那里。

It's going to take years, but it is just such a different paradigm.

这将需要数年时间，但这只是一个不同的范式。

It's like computers talking to computers, algorithms talking to other algorithms.

这就像计算机与计算机对话，算法与其他算法对话。

Then there's a human in the mix in terms of serving the human at the end, but it's like the human is not initiating that much.

然后，在最后为人类服务方面，有一个人类参与其中，但似乎人类并没有主动发起那么多。

It's just, stuff is happening around it.

只是，周围正在发生一些事情。

Manik Gupta: Anyway, that's one thing that is unfinished business, if you will, in my mind.

Manik Gupta：无论如何，在我看来，如果你愿意的话，这是一件未完成的事情。

And hopefully, as the technology comes together, that will happen.

希望随着技术的融合，这将会发生。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Manik, you've been extremely generous with your time.

马尼克，你非常慷慨地投入了时间。

Just two last quick questions.

最后两个简单的问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out maybe, or learn more about what you're doing?

如果人们想联系您或者了解更多关于您正在做的事情，可以在哪里找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Manik Gupta: Yeah.

马尼克·古普塔：是的。

You can find me on Twitter, you can find me on LinkedIn.

你可以在 Twitter 上找到我，也可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

Those are the two places.

就是这两个地方。

I have not been very active on both those recently.

我最近在这两个方面都不太活跃。

I've not been active as a contributor, but I'm very active on those two platforms as a consumer.

我作为贡献者并不活跃，但作为消费者我在这两个平台上非常活跃。

If you have any questions, if you have any thoughts, would love to hear from you, so please send me a note.

如果您有任何问题，如果您有任何想法，很乐意听到您的来信，所以请给我留言。

Manik Gupta: In terms of how listeners can be helpful, I just want to learn what's new and what's out there.

Manik Gupta：就听众如何提供帮助而言，我只是想了解新内容和现有内容。

I've had the privilege of being in these incredible companies.

我有幸加入这些令人难以置信的公司。

The reason why I'm still doing what I'm doing is because I still want to learn.

我之所以还在做我正在做的事情，是因为我仍然想学习。

If there are better patterns out there that you're seeing, particularly around how to build products, would love to know if there are other ways people think about finding product market fit.

如果您看到更好的模式，特别是在如何构建产品方面，很想知道人们是否还有其他方式来寻找适合市场的产品。

Because that's such an elusive thing that I just keep thinking a lot about.

因为这是一件难以捉摸的事情，我一直在思考。

If you have some techniques, some tips, some best practices that you have learned and it has worked for you, please, please, please reach out to me.

如果您有一些技术、一些技巧、一些您学到的最佳实践并且它对您有用，请联系我。

I would love to learn that, because it's so important for us to keep having that conversation.

我很想了解这一点，因为继续进行这种对话对我们来说非常重要。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It's always such a pleasure chatting.

聊天总是那么愉快。

I always learn a ton.

我总是学到很多东西。

And this did not disappoint, so thank you again for being here.

这并没有让人失望，所以再次感谢您来到这里。

Manik Gupta: Lenny, thank you so much for asking all these questions and giving me the opportunity to share my learnings over the years.

Manik Gupta：Lenny，非常感谢您提出所有这些问题，并让我有机会分享这些年来的经验教训。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Lenny: Absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：绝对是我的荣幸。

That was awesome.

太棒了。

Thank you for listening.

感谢您的聆听。

If you enjoyed the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast.

如果您喜欢聊天，请不要忘记订阅播客。

You could also learn more at lennyspodcast.com.

您还可以访问 lennyspodcast.com 了解更多信息。

I'll see you in the next episode.

我们下一集见。