Mastering product strategy and growing as a PM | Maggie Crowley (Toast, Drift, TripAdvisor)

Maggie Crowley: If you ever find yourself saying something like, that's not my job, that's probably a thing you should do.

玛吉·克劳利：如果你发现自己说过这样的话，那不是我的工作，那可能是你应该做的事情。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

It probably isn't your job and it probably is someone else's job and you can spend your life getting frustrated at that or you can just get over and get the work done.

这可能不是你的工作，也可能是别人的工作，你可以为此感到沮丧，或者你可以克服并完成工作。

And people who are willing to just get the work done will move faster.

那些愿意完成工作的人会行动得更快。

Their products will be more successful and they probably aren't carrying around all that anger and crappy emotion because as a PM, for better or for worse, and maybe this is not how we all want it to be, but you're oftentimes the emotional center of the team and it's your job to keep people motivated, keep people excited, keep them bought into the project, and you just have to keep that optimism going and it's hard work and part of it can be just like, you know what?

他们的产品会更成功，他们可能不会带着所有的愤怒和糟糕的情绪，因为作为一个项目经理，无论好坏，也许这不是我们都希望的那样，但你经常是团队的情感中心，你的工作是保持人们的积极性，让人们兴奋，让他们对项目感兴趣，你只需要保持乐观情绪，这是一项艰苦的工作，其中一部分可能就像，你知道吗？

Let me take that on.

让我来承担吧。

I'll do this thing.

我来做这件事。

I'll hop on this sales call, I'll implement this with the customer.

我将参加这次销售电话，我将与客户一起实施这一点。

You just have to do whatever it takes.

你只需要不惜一切代价。

Lenny: Today my guest is Maggie Crowley.

莱尼：今天我的客人是玛吉·克劳利。

Maggie is currently vice president of Product at Toast.

Maggie 目前是 Toast 的产品副总裁。

Prior to this, she was VP and head of product at Charlie Health, senior director of product at Drift, director of product at BevSpot, a product manager at TripAdvisor.

在此之前，她曾担任 Charlie Health 的副总裁兼产品主管、Drift 的高级产品总监、BevSpot 的产品总监、TripAdvisor 的产品经理。

She's also got an MBA from Harvard Business School.

她还获得了哈佛商学院的 MBA 学位。

She was also an Olympic speed skater, which is insane and incredibly cool.

她还是一名奥运会速滑运动员，这既疯狂又酷。

And in our conversation we discuss the three most common threads across the best product managers that she's worked with, hired and managed how to very tactically write out a product strategy to share with your team and manager why being data-driven is a red flag for product thinking.

在我们的对话中，我们讨论了与她共事、雇用和管理的最佳产品经理的三个最常见的主题，如何非常有策略地编写产品策略，以便与您的团队和经理分享为什么数据驱动是产品思维的危险信号。

Why product content you find online can be dangerous.

为什么您在网上找到的产品内容可能很危险。

Her best advice for how to break into product management.

她对如何进入产品管理领域给出了最好的建议。

Also, the impact writing online has had on her career and so much more.

此外，在线写作对她的职业生涯等产生了影响。

Maggie is amazing.

玛吉太棒了。

Lenny: I'm excited for you to learn from her like I did.

莱尼：我很高兴你能像我一样向她学习。

With that, I bring you Maggie Crowley after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了玛吉·克劳利。

This episode is brought to you by Productroadmap.ai and ignition Productroadmap.ai is the first AI roadmapping suite.

本集由 Productroadmap.ai 为您带来，ignition Productroadmap.ai 是第一个 AI 路线图套件。

It helps ensure roadmaps drive revenue by instantly aligning product with your sales and marketing teams to capture upsell opportunities.

它可以立即使产品与您的销售和营销团队保持一致，以抓住追加销售机会，从而帮助确保路线图增加收入。

Built by early leaders from Rippling and Craft, it automatically identifies feature gaps from your CRM data and your customer conversations, adds them to shareable roadmaps, easily prioritized by revenue impact, and then seamlessly closes the loop with sales reps via targeted notifications when feature gaps are closed.

它由 Rippling 和 Craft 的早期领导者构建，可自动识别 CRM 数据和客户对话中的功能差距，将其添加到可共享的路线图中，根据收入影响轻松确定优先级，然后在功能差距缩小时通过有针对性的通知与销售代表无缝地关闭循环。

As part of Ignition's broader go-to market operating system, Productroadmap.ai can also help create better handoffs and collaboration with product marketing teams by giving both teams the tools to research, plan, orchestrate and measure the process of building products and going to market.

作为 Ignition 更广泛的进入市场操作系统的一部分，Productroadmap.ai 还可以为产品营销团队提供研究、规划、编排和衡量构建产品和进入市场流程的工具，从而帮助与产品营销团队建立更好的交接和协作。

Packed with integrations, AI automation and communication tools.

充满了集成、人工智能自动化和通信工具。

It's truly a one-stop shop for product and marketing to bring things from concept to launch.

它确实是产品和营销的一站式商店，涵盖从概念到发布的整个过程。

To sign up, go to productroadmap.ai and use promo code Lenny to get 75% off your first year.

要注册，请访问 Productroadmap.ai 并使用促销代码 Lenny 即可享受第一年 75% 的折扣。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Composer, the AI powered trading platform now with retirement accounts, algorithmic trading has historically been reserved for the hedge fund elite.

Lenny：这一集是由 Composer 为您带来的，Composer 是一个人工智能驱动的交易平台，现在拥有退休账户，算法交易历来是为对冲基金精英保留的。

Now with Composer, you can automate your trading with a library of over 1,000 strategies that are easy to understand and tweak using an AI assistant and visual editor.

现在，借助 Composer，您可以使用包含 1,000 多种策略的库实现交易自动化，这些策略很容易使用 AI 助手和可视化编辑器来理解和调整。

Composer is the first ever algorithmic trading platform where you don't need any coding experience.

Composer 是第一个算法交易平台，您不需要任何编码经验。

It includes a full range of trading indicators for you to get creative and a Discord community of 2,500 traders to discuss your ideas with.

它包括一整套供您发挥创意的交易指标，以及一个由 2,500 名交易者组成的 Discord 社区，供您讨论您的想法。

Composer also has a powerful backtester to see the historical performance of your strategies and you can then invest with a single click.

Composer 还具有强大的回测器，可以查看您策略的历史表现，然后您只需单击一下即可进行投资。

Once you invest, composer will automatically trade for you based on the logic of your strategy.

一旦您投资，Composer 就会根据您的策略逻辑自动为您进行交易。

With $1 billion in trading volume and over 1 million trades executed Composer already has many big time investors using the platform regularly.

Composer 的交易量达 10 亿美元，执行的交易量超过 100 万笔，已经有许多大型投资者定期使用该平台。

Head to composer.trade and use the code Lenny for an extra week of free trial on your composer membership.

前往 Composer.trade 并使用代码 Lenny 为您的 Composer 会员资格额外提供一周的免费试用。

That's composer.trade.

那是composer.trade。

Lenny: Maggie, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：玛吉，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Maggie Crowley: Thanks for having me.

玛吉·克劳利：谢谢你邀请我。

I'm super excited.

我非常兴奋。

Lenny: You put out so much content across podcasts, blogs, tweets, I'm sure there's other things I haven't even seen.

莱尼：你在播客、博客、推文上发布了这么多内容，我确信还有其他东西我还没见过。

And so what I've done is I've scoured all of your content as much as I could to find topics that we could dig into in our conversation today.

因此，我所做的就是尽可能多地搜索您的所有内容，以找到我们今天可以在对话中深入探讨的主题。

And I thought it'd be fun to start with how to become a successful product manager and what it takes to be a successful product manager, especially long-term in your career.

我认为从如何成为一名成功的产品经理以及如何成为一名成功的产品经理开始会很有趣，尤其是从长远来看。

You've worked with a bunch of PMs, you've hired a lot of PMs, you've managed a lot of PMs, and so I guess the question is just what are some common threads you've seen across the best product managers?

你曾经与很多 PM 一起工作过，你雇佣过很多 PM，你管理过很多 PM，所以我想问题是你在最好的产品经理中看到的一些共同点是什么？

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, it's an interesting question mostly because I've worked in startups, zero to one, scaling stage startups, enterprise, all that kind of stuff.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，这是一个有趣的问题，主要是因为我曾在初创公司工作过，从零到一、规模化阶段的初创公司、企业，所有类似的东西。

And there's a lot of content out there I think on how those roles are different and how PMs are different across those different types of companies.

我认为有很多内容是关于这些角色的不同之处以及不同类型公司的产品经理有何不同。

But what I've seen is that there are some standard things that are the same across the role no matter whether you're a consumer, B2B or startup or a large company and in particular about what sets PMs apart from one another.

但我发现，无论您是消费者、B2B、初创公司还是大公司，整个角色都有一些相同的标准，尤其是 PM 之间的区别。

And the things that I look for when I'm hiring or when I'm looking to promote people or when PMs stand out, even when you're not looking are three things.

当我招聘、晋升人员或产品经理脱颖而出时，我会寻找三件事，即使你没有寻找。

Maggie Crowley: First, I think the best PMs are really good at breaking things down and simplifying things.

Maggie Crowley：首先，我认为最好的产品经理非常擅长分解事情并简化事情。

So, finding at any moment what is the really truly the only thing you need to do, especially in a big company, there are 8 million priorities, there's 700 OKRs, there's 25,000 projects you could work on, and teams will get bogged down in that complexity.

因此，无论何时，找到你真正唯一需要做的事情是什么，尤其是在一家大公司，有 800 万个优先事项，有 700 个 OKR，有 25,000 个项目可以处理，团队会陷入这种复杂性中。

Similarly speaking at a startup, you might think that it's easy to find the one thing to do, but at the same time there's so many fires that are happening and so many things you could do in such a world of opportunity that even just picking one and sticking with it is really difficult.

同样地，在一家初创公司，你可能会认为找到一件事要做很容易，但与此同时，在这样一个充满机会的世界里，发生了太多的事情，你可以做很多事情，即使只是选择一件事并坚持下去也真的很困难。

And so the best PMs not only can find the one thing to work on, but they can stay with that one thing long enough to actually finish it.

因此，最好的产品经理不仅能够找到需要做的一件事，而且能够坚持足够长的时间来真正完成它。

Lenny: I think that's a really interesting point, because it sounds simple.

莱尼：我认为这是一个非常有趣的观点，因为它听起来很简单。

Also, just this idea of simplifying, but I think there's so much up there partly because within simplifying is prioritizing and you can almost boil down the job of the PM as they're just prioritizing and telling people what is next.

另外，只是这个简化的想法，但我认为有很多东西，部分原因是在简化中是优先级，你几乎可以归结为 PM 的工作，因为他们只是优先级并告诉人们下一步是什么。

And so I think that's a really powerful point you're making.

所以我认为你提出的观点非常有力。

Maggie Crowley: Prioritization is a tough word because there's so much wrapped up in that and what it means to prioritize.

Maggie Crowley：优先级是一个很难理解的词，因为它包含了太多的内容以及优先级的含义。

And I've worked for people who wanted to understand the formula for prioritization and why this thing and how can you prove that this is the right thing to work on and not that thing.

我曾为一些人工作过，他们想要了解优先级的公式，为什么要做这件事，以及如何证明这是正确的事情而不是那件事。

And then a week goes by and then they want to reevaluate the priority and they want to re-litigate the priority.

然后一周过去了，他们想要重新评估优先级，并且想要重新就优先级提起诉讼。

And so it's so much more than just a moment in time deciding, but it's the ability to stay with it and to make sure that it continues to be the most important thing, that you finish it and actually see that it works and that you can get people to continue to stay excited and engaged in that project.

因此，这不仅仅是一时的决定，而是坚持下去并确保它仍然是最重要的事情的能力，你完成它并真正看到它有效，并且你可以让人们继续保持兴奋并参与该项目。

Maggie Crowley: Because I think a lot of when we talk about product, it's like, oh, what should you build?

Maggie Crowley：因为我想，当我们谈论产品时，很多时候都会想，哦，你应该构建什么？

What should you ship?

您应该运送什么？

But then you actually have to ship that and that can take a week, a month, three months, six months, a year.

但实际上你必须运送它，这可能需要一周、一个月、三个月、六个月、一年。

And so as a PM, your job is to stay on that and be the person who's beating that drum over and over again, and the best PMs are the ones who can do that and have the resilience and the energy to stay with it.

因此，作为一名产品经理，你的工作就是坚持下去，成为一个一遍又一遍地敲鼓的人，最好的产品经理就是那些能够做到这一点并有韧性和精力坚持下去的人。

Lenny: Energy.

莱尼：能源。

That's a really important part of that.

这是其中非常重要的一部分。

I'm going to ask you how you suggest people get better at these things.

我要问你如何建议人们在这些事情上做得更好。

So, either we can go into how you found you get better at simplifying or we go through all three and then we can come back, however you prefer.

因此，要么我们可以探讨您如何发现自己在简化方面做得更好，要么我们完成所有三个，然后我们可以回来，无论您喜欢什么。

Maggie Crowley: Let's just do all three really quick and then we can dig in.

玛吉·克劳利：让我们快速完成这三件事，然后我们就可以深入研究了。

Maggie Crowley: So, yeah, first one, simplifying.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，是的，第一个，简化。

I think the second one has to do with this point about sticking with something and it's following up on results.

我认为第二个与坚持某件事和跟进结果这一点有关。

So many people in the spec or the one pager or something will say, okay, here's the metric that I care about.

规范或单寻呼机或其他东西中的许多人会说，好吧，这是我关心的指标。

Here's what I want to move.

这就是我要移动的东西。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Maybe they'll even write a SQL query, get a dashboard going, figure out what the number is today, that gets you some extra points, but the really, really good PMs remember to follow up.

也许他们甚至会编写一个 SQL 查询，运行一个仪表板，算出今天的数字是多少，这会给你一些额外的分数，但真正非常优秀的 PM 记得跟进。

Because especially when you're in management, couple layers up in management, I'm not going to remember to follow up on that feature, but if a PM comes back to me and says, "Hey, remember we did that thing, here's what happened." I can't tell you how rare that is and how many times as a leader you might have to ask for that and for the people you don't have to ask that of is one of the best things when I'm looking at PMs and it's easy.

因为特别是当你处于管理层时，在管理层中进行多层管理时，我不会记得跟进该功能，但如果产品经理回来对我说：“嘿，记住我们做了那件事，这就是发生的事情。”我无法告诉你这种情况有多罕见，作为领导者你可能需要多少次提出这样的要求，而对于那些你不必提出这样要求的人来说，这是我在寻找产品经理时最好的事情之一，而且这很容易。

Maggie Crowley: It's not hard to do that, especially if you've set up metric tracking or you know how to pull that information or you have somebody who can help you get that.

Maggie Crowley：这并不难，特别是如果您已经设置了指标跟踪，或者您知道如何获取该信息，或者有人可以帮助您获取该信息。

It's pretty easy to do and it's really high value activity.

这很容易做到，而且确实是一项高价值的活动。

And then the third thing, and I think maybe we'll talk about this later too, is that a phrase actually we were talking about David Cancel before we started carrying the water, and this was a big theme when I joined Drift, and this is about how you can't be a good PM if you're not willing to do the hard boring unglamorous work of customer support, sales, marketing, writing, copy, project management, you have to do that stuff.

然后第三件事，我想也许我们稍后也会讨论这个，实际上我们在开始挑水之前就在谈论 David Cancel，这是我加入 Drift 时的一个大主题，这就是如果你不愿意做客户支持、销售、营销、写作、文案、项目管理等艰苦乏味、乏味的工作，你就不能成为一个好的 PM，你必须做这些事情。

It's your job.

这是你的工作。

No one else is going to do it, because at the end of the day, you're responsible for outcomes and results.

没有其他人会这样做，因为归根结底，你要对结果负责。

So, you're the person that has to do that, and if you're willing to do that work, that's what's going to make your product successful, which is what makes you successful.

所以，你是那个必须做这件事的人，如果你愿意做这项工作，那就会让你的产品成功，这就是让你成功的原因。

Lenny: It's such an interesting list because when you ask most people what you need to get better at to become a great product manager, it's always communication skills, collaboration skills, vision, strategy, and it feels like these are input metrics to what it's normally what people think about.

Lenny：这是一个非常有趣的清单，因为当你问大多数人要成为一名优秀的产品经理需要做什么时，他们总是会提到沟通技巧、协作技巧、愿景、策略，而且感觉这些都是人们通常思考的输入指标。

Maggie Crowley: Those things to me, communication, super important, analytical ability, really, really important.

玛吉·克劳利：对我来说，沟通非常重要，分析能力非常非常重要。

The ability to look at a, especially if you're doing something that has a user experience component, the ability to look at that and understand if it's going to work and build up intuition around that, also really important.

能够观察，尤其是当你正在做一些涉及用户体验的事情时，能够观察并理解它是否会起作用并围绕它建立直觉，这也非常重要。

Those are things that I would see as sort of basics of the role.

我将这些视为该角色的基础知识。

These are the things that make you great at the role and strategy to me, and hopefully we'll talk about strategy in a bit.

对我来说，这些都是让你擅长这个角色和策略的因素，希望我们能稍微讨论一下策略。

It's one tiny slice.

这是一小片。

You do a strategy, but it's 5% of the work that you do.

你制定了一个策略，但这只占你所做工作的 5%。

Yes, it's important because you want to get your strategy and you need to pick the right products, but at the end of the day, the person who has a good strategy will not be as successful as the PM who ships more stuff, gets more reps and has the ability to actually create impact.

是的，这很重要，因为你想要制定自己的策略，并且需要选择正确的产品，但最终，拥有良好策略的人不会像交付更多产品、获得更多代表并有能力真正创造影响力的 PM 那样成功。

So, to me, you could be great at strategy, but if you're not good at this stuff and your stuff isn't getting out the door, you're never going to be that great at the job.

所以，对我来说，你可能擅长战略，但如果你不擅长这些东西，而且你的东西也没有走出门，你就永远不会在工作中表现得那么出色。

Lenny: And impact is the other one.

莱尼：影响力是另一个。

Everyone's always like, what makes a great PM?

每个人总是问，什么才是优秀的 PM？

Oh, drive a lot of impact.

哦，开车影响很大。

And again-

再说一遍——

Maggie Crowley: It's like, cool, let's do a strategy, let's have impact.

玛吉·克劳利：这就像，酷，让我们制定一个策略，让我们产生影响。

Then when I was starting off as a PM, I was hearing this advice and reading about it and I was sitting there saying, awesome, I want to create impact.

然后，当我开始担任产品经理时，我听到了这个建议并阅读了相关内容，我坐在那里说，太棒了，我想创造影响力。

And I'm looking at my job thinking, now what?

我看着我的工作在想，现在怎么办？

Yeah, impact.

是的，影响。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Where is it?

它在哪里？

How do I find it?

我如何找到它？

Someone help me.

有人帮助我。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Okay, so let's go back to these three and I'm curious just what you found helps you become better at these things and also just an example if you can share.

好吧，让我们回到这三个问题，我很好奇你发现了什么可以帮助你在这些事情上变得更好，如果你可以分享的话，这也只是一个例子。

So, say what's simplifying?

那么，说说简化了什么？

How does one build that muscle?

如何锻炼肌肉？

Maggie Crowley: This is a tough one because some people, a broad generalization that I think comes up in things like when you're interviewing PMs for a job and you say things like are they a simplifier or are they complexifier?

Maggie Crowley：这是一个很难的问题，因为有些人，我认为，当你面试 PM 职位时，你会说他们是简化者还是复杂者？

Do they make things complicated?

他们会让事情变得复杂吗？

And so some of it's a little bit of just who you are and how you think.

因此，其中一些与你是谁以及你的想法有关。

But having said that, there's one tool that I use that I actually learned from my dad when I was in grade school, which is when you write something, for example, and a lot of what we do as PMs is written, when you write something, read it out loud, literally just read the thing you wrote out loud and half the time you'll realize it's way too complicated, it doesn't make sense.

但话虽如此，我使用的一个工具实际上是我在小学时从我父亲那里学到的，例如，当你写一些东西时，我们作为产品经理所做的很多事情都是书面的，当你写一些东西时，大声朗读出来，实际上只是大声朗读你写的东西，一半的时间你会意识到它太复杂了，没有意义。

Or what happens is when someone comes to me and they say, okay, I'm working on this thing, check it out, can you read it?

或者当有人来找我时，他们说，好吧，我正在做这个事情，检查一下，你能读一下吗？

Maggie Crowley: I read it and then I put it down and I say, "What are you trying to say?" And 99% of the time they say, "Oh, users are really struggling with this problem.

玛吉·克劳利：我读了它，然后把它放下，然后说：“你想说什么？” 99% 的情况下，他们会说：“哦，用户真的在为这个问题苦苦挣扎。

We found this in research and we think that the way to solve it's to do X", but that's not what the document says.

我们在研究中发现了这一点，我们认为解决这个问题的方法是做“X”，但这不是文件所说的。

And so my reaction is always, and if anyone who I've worked with is listening to this, they're going to laugh is always, "Just say that.

所以我的反应总是，如果和我一起工作过的人听到这个，他们总是会笑，“就这么说吧。

Just say that thing.

就说那件事吧。

The thing that you said to me in conversation is the thing you should write." There's no reason why your pros in a document has to be a certain way.

你在谈话中对我说的话就是你应该写的东西。”文档中的优点没有必要一定是某种方式。

We're not in school.

我们不在学校。

Our goal is to get things done.

我们的目标是把事情做好。

So, those are just some simple tricks that I've used to help simplify what I've already been working on.

所以，这些只是我用来帮助简化我已经在做的事情的一些简单技巧。

Maggie Crowley: And as for how to boil things down and really find the most important thing to do, which is another part of simplification, I think the best thing you can do is just get as many reps in as you can, have people review your work and listen to them.

玛吉·克劳利：至于如何将事情归结并真正找到最重要的事情要做，这是简化的另一部分，我认为你能做的最好的事情就是让尽可能多的代表参与进来，让人们审查你的工作并听取他们的意见。

There's a thing that happens I think with PMs where you join a company and then all of a sudden it's like my boss doesn't know what they're doing and the highest paid person's opinion and the founder wants to swoop in and mess everything up, but those people had an insight on the market that you're in that made the company worth founding and they probably know more than you and so you might want to listen to them.

我认为在 PM 中会发生这样一种情况，当你加入一家公司时，突然之间，我的老板不知道他们在做什么，也不知道最高薪人士的意见，而创始人却想介入并搞砸一切，但这些人对你所处的市场有洞察力，这使得公司值得创立，他们可能比你了解更多，所以你可能想听听他们的意见。

And so find people who can review your work, listen to them and ask them to help you simplify.

因此，找到可以审查您的工作的人，倾听他们的意见并请他们帮助您简化工作。

Lenny: I'll share a couple other things that came to mind as you were talking, because this is a very hard thing to teach and you kind of have to do it again and again and honestly, I have this one manager who taught me to simplify in my writing and strategy docs one-pagers and things like that, and I think that actually had a big impact on my newsletter success is learning just to strip down as much as you can and anything that isn't necessary.

莱尼：我会分享你在谈话时想到的其他一些事情，因为这是一件非常难教的事情，你必须一遍又一遍地做，老实说，我有一位经理教我简化我的写作和策略文档单页机之类的事情，我认为对我的时事通讯成功产生巨大影响的实际上是学习尽可能多地精简和任何不必要的内容。

So, there's a couple things that I'll share real quick.

所以，我会很快分享一些事情。

One is there's this book I read called On Writing Well, that is one of the most impactful books for writing for me, and the whole book is like, I don't know, 20 chapters and every chapter is more things you should cut from your writing and they show all these examples of like, here's a before and here's an after.

其中之一是我读过的这本书叫《论写作》，那是对我来说最有影响力的写作书籍之一，整本书就像，我不知道，20章，每一章都是你应该从你的写作中删掉的东西，它们展示了所有这些例子，比如，这是之前，这是之后。

Lenny: And all these words were cut and nothing changed.

莱尼：所有这些话都被删掉了，没有任何改变。

They're completely necessary.

它们是完全必要的。

So, I think that book can help and partly it's just like what is not necessary?

所以，我认为这本书可以有所帮助，但部分内容是不必要的？

You think all these adjectives are important.

你认为所有这些形容词都很重要。

Another thing I found really helpful is the rule of thirds, I guess the rule of three, of just always having three.

我发现真正有用的另一件事是三分法则，我猜是三法则，总是只有三个。

Try not to go beyond three when you're giving strategy bets or priorities or things like that.

当你进行策略投注或优先事项或类似事情时，尽量不要超过三个。

Just try to keep things under three.

尽量把事情控制在三以下。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, it's a very sort of business school ex-consultant point of view that I do agree with and share, which is there's always three things or fewer, never more than three things.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，这是一种我确实同意并分享的商学院前顾问的观点，即总是有三件事或更少，永远不会超过三件事。

You have to have a nice round couple and if you have a fourth, you've got to figure out how to squish it in there because it just doesn't look right if there's four.

你必须有一对漂亮的圆形，如果你有第四个，你必须弄清楚如何将它压在那里，因为如果有四个，它看起来就不正确。

Lenny: Agree.

莱尼：同意。

Yeah, even though I've been guilty of more than three, try hard to avoid it.

是啊，虽然我已经犯了三件以上的罪，但还是尽量避免吧。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, you're using notion and you have your three bullets expanding and there's sub bullets, but at least you have that top line.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，你正在使用概念，你有三个子弹扩展，还有子子弹，但至少你有顶线。

Lenny: That's right.

莱尼：没错。

The other thing is I think that there's just a focus you need to get good at just like, people often want to lump together a bunch of ideas and then every time you do that it just dilutes everything.

另一件事是，我认为你需要专注于一个焦点，就像人们经常想把一堆想法放在一起，然后每次你这样做都会稀释一切。

So, I think there's just a lot of power and pick the thing, pick the thing that's going to have the most impact and cut other stuff that may have some impact but is much less important.

所以，我认为有很大的权力，选择那些能产生最大影响的东西，并削减其他可能有一定影响但不太重要的东西。

Maggie Crowley: I think again, simplification is something and prioritization, which is sort of the same thing, gets tossed around a lot as a thing you have to get good at, but it's really challenging.

玛吉·克劳利：我再说一遍，简化和优先级是一样的，作为你必须擅长的事情，它经常被抛来抛去，但这确实具有挑战性。

Getting to the one thing you should do is extremely difficult and being able and having the gumption to say no to all those other things is really hard, because there's probably at any given time, 10 things you should do, but you can't do 10 things, you'll never be successful if you do that in a number of things.

做你应该做的一件事是极其困难的，而能够并有勇气对所有其他事情说“不”真的很难，因为在任何给定时间，可能有 10 件事你应该做，但你不能做 10 件事，如果你在很多事情上都这样做，你永远不会成功。

And so you have to pick one.

所以你必须选择一个。

Maggie Crowley: And so it's both figuring out how to get confident in your decision and then B, having the willingness, and maybe I should have added this to my what makes great PMs list, the willingness to make the bet and be responsible for it.

Maggie Crowley：因此，首先要弄清楚如何对自己的决定充满信心，然后是有意愿，也许我应该将其添加到我的优秀产品经理清单中，即愿意下注并为此负责。

And that's what I think separates the PM role from a lot of other roles and why it's such a challenging job when done right is because you have to be willing to take responsibility and it's your job to pick the thing and it's your job to be accountable to your team for picking the thing so you better get it right.

我认为这就是 PM 角色与许多其他角色的区别，以及为什么如果做得正确的话，它是一项如此具有挑战性的工作，因为你必须愿意承担责任，你的工作是选择事情，你的工作是对你的团队负责选择事情，这样你才能更好地做对。

Lenny: Ownership such an important part of just being a PM.

Lenny：所有权对于成为一名产品经理来说是非常重要的一部分。

Again, coming back to this interview I just did with an ex Amazon guy, that's one of their principles at Amazon is just leaders, basically ownership, feeling like you have ownership of what you're working on.

再次回到我刚刚对一位前亚马逊员工进行的采访，他们在亚马逊的原则之一就是领导者，基本上是所有权，感觉你对自己正在做的事情拥有所有权。

Maggie Crowley: I agree, but to me at least the word ownership doesn't have the same oh shit feeling as you're making a bet.

玛吉·克劳利（Maggie Crowley）：我同意，但至少对我来说，所有权这个词并不像打赌那样有那种糟糕的感觉。

You make a bet, that means you know that there's a chance that the thing you're working on is not going to work out and you still have to be the one to do the thing, jump off the ledge, drop in on the ski run.

你打赌，这意味着你知道你正在做的事情有可能不会成功，你仍然必须成为那个做这件事的人，跳下壁架，去滑雪道。

So, ownership to me never signaled that risk that I think comes with being a PM.

因此，对我来说，所有权从来没有表明我认为作为一名产品经理会带来风险。

Lenny: Good point.

莱尼：说得好。

On the simplify concept, it reminds me at Airbnb, one of the core values at Airbnb for time was simplify.

关于简化的概念，这让我想起了 Airbnb，当时 Airbnb 的核心价值观之一就是简化。

Is this idea that we should always try to be simplifying, and then it turned out the founders realized we're not actually great at this and it's unfair for us to say this is a value for not doing it.

我们是否应该始终尝试简化这个想法，然后结果创始人意识到我们实际上并不擅长于此，并且我们说不这样做是一种价值，这是不公平的。

So, they actually cut it as a core value because their feeling was we shouldn't have aspirational values, we should reflect who we actually are, and they actually cut two different values to be more clear, even though they still want to simplify, they're just like, we're not actually good at this, so why are we pretending like we are.

所以，他们实际上把它作为核心价值观，因为他们的感觉是我们不应该有抱负的价值观，我们应该反映我们实际上是谁，他们实际上削减了两个不同的价值观以使其更加清晰，即使他们仍然想简化，他们只是说，我们实际上并不擅长这一点，那我们为什么要假装自己很擅长呢？

Maggie Crowley: I think maybe I'm good at it on paper, but there's been many times where I've been in situations where things are not simple and you just have to keep fighting for it.

玛吉·克劳利：我想也许我在纸面上很擅长，但很多时候我都遇到过事情并不简单的情况，你必须继续为之奋斗。

Lenny: Someone's trying to think about, okay, I want to become better as a PM and I'm going to try to start simplifying.

Lenny：有人试图思考，好吧，我想成为一名更好的产品经理，我将尝试开始简化。

What are examples of simplifying?

简化的例子有哪些？

Is it reduce your email length?

它会减少您的电子邮件长度吗？

Is it one pager focus?

它是一个寻呼机焦点吗？

What are these buckets of things?

这些桶里的东西是什么？

And then also if there's an example of something you've simplified that comes to mind

然后如果你想到了一个你简化过的例子

Maggie Crowley: On what to simplify and more specifics, I would say anything can be simplified and shortened.

Maggie Crowley：关于简化什么和更具体的内容，我想说任何事情都可以简化和缩短。

Maybe another way to say shorten it.

也许另一种说法是缩短它。

Definitely emails.

肯定是电子邮件。

I read them sometimes don't love them.

我有时读它们但并不喜欢它们。

Make them short.

让它们变短。

The Minto principle is something that I would recommend everyone do, which is put the headline, the full conclusion first and then you're supporting argument second.

我建议每个人都遵循明托原则，即首先放置标题和完整结论，然后再支持论点。

Lenny: I have a newsletter post about that exact concept that people that I will link in the show notes that gives you-

莱尼：我有一篇时事通讯，关于这个确切的概念，我将在节目笔记中链接的人给你-

Maggie Crowley: Yes, everyone should do that.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，每个人都应该这样做。

A lot of new PMs fall into the trap of thinking that they should have some sort of buildup.

许多新任产品经理都陷入了这样的陷阱，认为他们应该进行某种积累。

Don't do that.

不要那样做。

Just tell me whatever the thing is, everyone will thank you.

不管发生什么事，只要告诉我，每个人都会感谢你。

Doing things like that, things like you said, limiting your strategy docs, your conclusions, your next steps to three things maximum.

做那样的事情，像你说的那样，将你的策略文档、你的结论、你的下一步最多限制为三件事。

I would generally say a rule of thumb would be pretty much every doc you write, you can delete the first two paragraphs that you've written.

我通常会说，经验法则几乎是您编写的每个文档，您可以删除您编写的前两段。

You don't need them.

你不需要它们。

My dad, again, to go back to my dad when I would write, and this sounds cruel, but I promise it wasn't.

我的父亲，当我写作时，又回到我父亲身边，这听起来很残酷，但我保证事实并非如此。

When I would write a paper for school, he would just, and this is we didn't really have computers, whatever, he would just take away the first page and he'd be like, just start here.

当我为学校写一篇论文时，他会，我们并没有真正的计算机，无论如何，他会拿走第一页，然后他会说，从这里开始。

He would go, "Everything on the first page is crapola, don't use it."

他会说：“第一页上的所有内容都是废话，不要使用它。”

Maggie Crowley: And he wouldn't even read it, which would drive me crazy.

玛吉·克劳利：他甚至不读它，这会让我发疯。

He would just like, "Oh, it's crap.

他只想说：“哦，这真是垃圾。

I don't care about that." So, I would do that and then just get other people, there's probably somebody around you that's good and find people to edit your work and to look at it.

我不在乎这个。”所以，我会这样做，然后找其他人，你周围可能有一个很好的人，找人来编辑你的作品并查看它。

I have a little Slack workspace that has three people in it, me and two other women who are product leaders, and we oftentimes send each other our work still and we say, "Hey, I'm struggling with this.

我有一个小型的 Slack 工作空间，里面有三个人，我和另外两名担任产品负责人的女性，我们经常互相发送我们的工作，然后我们说，“嘿，我正在努力解决这个问题。

Can you read it?

你能读懂吗？

Help me make it simpler.

帮我让它变得更简单。

Can you help me fix this up?" And we do that for each other.

你能帮我解决这个问题吗？”我们这样做是为了彼此。

So, find a peer maybe who's in a non-competitive space who can do that for you.

因此，找一个在非竞争性领域的同行可以为你做到这一点。

I mean I still use those people to help me.

我的意思是我仍然利用那些人来帮助我。

Lenny: That is extremely cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

Can you talk more about this group that you have?

您能多谈谈您所拥有的这个团体吗？

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, I don't know if it's a group.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，我不知道这是不是一个团体。

It's like three friends.

就像三个朋友一样。

Shout out Alexa and Daphne.

大声喊出 Alexa 和 Daphne。

Yeah, I mean the three of us all worked together when we were at Drift.

是的，我的意思是我们三个人在 Drift 的时候就一起工作过。

We've stayed in touch and I've just found that in order to be good at your job continuously, you need people who can help give you feedback, and the more senior you get, the harder that is.

我们一直保持联系，我刚刚发现，为了持续做好工作，你需要有人可以帮助你提供反馈，而你的职位越高，就越难。

And so having people who can give you another point of view who maybe you can vent to if it's not appropriate as a leader who can give you other experiences that they're going through has been incredibly valuable.

因此，如果领导者不适合为你提供他们正在经历的其他经历，那么拥有能够给你提供另一种观点的人，也许你可以向他们发泄，这是非常有价值的。

And so we just have a little group chat that is focused on product.

所以我们只是进行了一个专注于产品的小组聊天。

Lenny: That is so cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

Is there a tip you could share for someone that wants to create something like this?

对于想要创建这样的东西的人，您有什么建议可以分享吗？

Is it important for you to have worked with them before?

之前与他们合作过对您来说重要吗？

Is Slack a good way to communicate?

Slack 是一种很好的沟通方式吗？

Anything there that's just like, oh yeah, here's a cool tip.

任何类似于“哦，是的，这是一个很酷的提示”的内容。

Maggie Crowley: Slack just worked for us where we are during the day, and I think having easy access to it was important.

Maggie Crowley：Slack 只在白天为我们工作，我认为轻松访问它很重要。

You could probably use WhatsApp or a literal group text.

您可能可以使用 WhatsApp 或文字群组短信。

There are small community, there's one, I worked in healthcare for a year and a bit, and there's a Slack community that somebody organized for heads of products and healthcare startups that is similar to those really, really powerful and a really great space to be in.

有一个小社区，有一个，我在医疗保健领域工作了一年多时间，还有一个 Slack 社区，是有人为产品和医疗保健初创公司负责人组织的，它与那些非常非常强大且非常好的空间类似。

And so you just have to kind of suss out where these things are.

所以你只需要弄清楚这些东西在哪里。

You work with amazing people and there's people around you who are going to become your friends, and so keep an eye out for them and keep in touch with them when you leave a job because you never know when they might become your little Slack workspace.

您与出色的人一起工作，并且您周围的人将成为您的朋友，因此当您离职时请留意他们并与他们保持联系，因为您永远不知道他们什么时候会成为您的小 Slack 工作空间。

Lenny: Oh, I love it.

莱尼：哦，我喜欢它。

Okay, I'm glad we talked on that.

好的，我很高兴我们谈论了这一点。

Okay, back on track.

好吧，回到正轨。

The second bucket you described as following up on results, is it just do that.

您所描述的第二个桶是对结果的跟踪，就是这样做。

Is there anything more you can add there?

您还有什么可以补充的吗？

Maggie Crowley: I put reminders in my calendar.

玛吉·克劳利：我在日历中添加了提醒。

I mean, yeah, it's just do that.

我的意思是，是的，就是这样做。

But if you're launching a product, usually you release something and you have that initial push of a couple of weeks where you're finding bugs and you're maybe you're pulling metrics and everyone remembers it, then I would remember two weeks after that, a month after that, six months after that, put a reminder in your calendar to check your dashboard or check the metrics or check whatever it is that you were doing, and you won't forget and then share them with whoever might care about it.

但如果你要推出一个产品，通常你会发布一些东西，你会在最初的几周内发现错误，你可能会提取指标，每个人都记得它，然后我会记得两周后，一个月后，六个月后，在你的日历中设置一个提醒，检查你的仪表板或检查指标或检查你正在做的任何事情，你不会忘记，然后与任何可能关心它的人分享。

And it's as simple as that.

就这么简单。

Lenny: And is the reason this is one of the three things you think are most consistent across great PMs, that it helps your manager see you like, wow, Maggie's so on top of everything, or is it more that you learn from that experience and drive more impact or is it both?

Lenny：这就是你认为伟大的 PM 中最一致的三件事之一的原因，它可以帮助你的经理看到你喜欢，哇，玛吉在所有事情上都是如此，还是你更多地从这段经历中学习并产生更大的影响，或者两者兼而有之？

Maggie Crowley: It's definitely both.

玛吉·克劳利：绝对是两者兼而有之。

I'm not going to pretend like if you're just great at your job quietly that you're going to get what you want.

我不会假装如果你只是默默地做好你的工作，你就会得到你想要的东西。

Just if you're toiling in the background, doing a great job getting results.

只要你在后台辛勤工作，做得很好并取得成果。

If you have a great manager, maybe you'll be successful.

如果你有一位出色的经理，也许你会成功。

Great managers are few and far between, and I am of the opinion that I never wanted to rely on someone else to get what I wanted.

伟大的管理者是少之又少，我认为我从来不想依靠别人来得到我想要的东西。

And so I would always make sure to share that, always make sure to share my progress because I didn't want to leave it up to chance that someone would notice.

所以我总是确保分享这一点，总是确保分享我的进步，因为我不想让别人注意到它。

So, I would suggest doing it for both reasons.

因此，我建议出于两个原因这样做。

And that's one of those things that people want to pretend that everything's perfect and we're all great and we're always going to get what we want and always going to get that promotion, but you have to work for it.

这就是人们想要假装一切都很完美，我们都很棒，我们总是会得到我们想要的并且总是会得到晋升的事情之一，但你必须为此而努力。

Lenny: I love that point.

莱尼：我喜欢这一点。

It reminds me what I find one of the most important traits of a great product manager is they create this aura that they've got this, they put something on their plate and they're not going to drop it, that the threads are not going to be forgotten.

这让我想起了我发现的一个伟大的产品经理最重要的特质之一，就是他们创造了一种光环，让他们知道他们已经拥有了这个，他们把一些东西放在盘子里，他们不会把它扔掉，线索不会被忘记。

And this connects to me there.

这和我有联系。

They feel like Maggie's going to tell me what happened with this experiment.

他们觉得玛吉会告诉我这个实验发生了什么。

I don't have to think about it as a manager.

作为管理者我不需要考虑这个问题。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, that's a really good point.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，这是一个非常好的观点。

And then you mentioned this a little bit ago, the side benefit is that you learn more.

然后你刚才提到了这一点，附带的好处是你可以学到更多。

You will go back and learn why something happened or why it didn't happen, and the more that you follow up on what you've been doing and the more you learn, the better you get every time you ship something.

您将回过头来了解为什么某件事发生或为什么没有发生，您对所做的事情跟进得越多，学到的越多，每次发货时您都会得到更好的结果。

To me, the other answer of what makes a great PM is family shipped a lot of stuff.

对我来说，成为一名优秀产品经理的另一个答案是家人运送了很多东西。

The more you ship, the more you learn.

您运送的越多，您学到的就越多。

And that's why it can take years to build up expertise because you just have to ship a lot of stuff.

这就是为什么需要花费数年时间来积累专业知识，因为您只需要交付很多东西。

Lenny: There's a lot of people that are always frustrated.

莱尼：有很多人总是感到沮丧。

They're not getting promoted quickly enough as a PM.

他们晋升为产品经理的速度不够快。

They're not moving off the ladder like, oh my god, I've been a PM for two years.

他们不会像天哪，我已经当了两年 PM 那样从阶梯上走下来。

I'm not a senior PM yet.

我还不是高级总理。

Can you speak more to just that thought and just how long it takes to get actually good?

您能详细谈谈这个想法以及需要多长时间才能真正变得优秀吗？

I guess I'll share briefly in my experience, it took me four years to actually know what the hell I was doing as a PM and then things started to really take off.

我想我会简单分享一下我的经验，我花了四年的时间才真正知道我作为一名产品经理到底在做什么，然后事情开始真正起飞。

What's your experience?

你的经验是什么？

Maggie Crowley: I would say similarly, it took a lot of years to feel confident that I knew what I was doing.

玛吉·克劳利：我会说同样的，我花了很多年才确信我知道自己在做什么。

My first PM job was a product management rotation job at TripAdvisor.

我的第一份产品经理工作是 TripAdvisor 的产品管理轮换工作。

I had no PM background.

我没有 PM 背景。

It was after business school and I left those two years thinking, yeah, I've worked on four different teams over the two years.

那是商学院毕业后，我在离开那两年时想，是的，这两年我在四个不同的团队工作过。

I've shipped all this stuff, I'm good.

我已经把这些东西都寄出去了，一切都好。

Went to a startup, there was another product person there, they left and I was the only product person at the startup.

去了一家初创公司，那里有另一个产品人员，他们离开了，我是初创公司唯一的产品人员。

And I realized really quickly, I had no idea what I was doing.

我很快意识到，我不知道自己在做什么。

I had no one to learn from.

我没有人可以向我学习。

I had only had two years of experience and I was not ready for that job.

我只有两年的经验，还没有准备好接受这份工作。

I didn't feel confident in the decisions I was making.

我对自己所做的决定没有信心。

That's why I joined Drift is because that team had all these really incredible product thinkers on it and they were shipping all sorts of stuff.

这就是我加入 Drift 的原因，因为该团队拥有所有这些非常令人难以置信的产品思考者，并且他们正在交付各种各样的东西。

They had all this momentum and I thought, okay, that's where I'm going to go to learn.

他们有这样的动力，我想，好吧，这就是我要去学习的地方。

Maggie Crowley: And so then two more years.

玛吉·克劳利：然后再过两年。

So, that's five years until I really felt like I knew what I was doing.

所以，五年后我才真正感觉到我知道自己在做什么。

And that's because it takes a long time to ship stuff.

那是因为运送东西需要很长时间。

And so to people who want to progress, you can progress by job hopping, you can progress by going in and out of startups.

所以对于想要进步的人来说，你可以通过跳槽来进步，你可以通过进出创业公司来进步。

But to me staying at that, when I was at Drip, I was there for almost four years.

但对我来说，当我在 Drip 时，我在那里呆了将近四年。

I got to see two or three cycles of the same product and I learned more from that than I did out of the year or so I spent doing other things each at a time because you got to see the consequences of your decisions and that's rare.

我看到了同一产品的两到三个周期，我从中学到的东西比我一年左右一次花在做其他事情上的东西还要多，因为你必须看到你的决定的后果，而这是很少见的。

And people, myself included, of course you want to get promoted, of course you want to move up.

人们，包括我自己，当然想升职，当然想升职。

I'm ambitious.

我雄心勃勃。

Lots of people are ambitious, but for better or for worse, spending the time is really helpful and I think allowed me to move faster later because I had just spent the time grinding it out for a while in order to be better later.

很多人都雄心勃勃，但无论好坏，花时间确实很有帮助，我认为让我以后可以更快地行动，因为我刚刚花了一段时间磨练它，以便以后变得更好。

Lenny: So, is that advice you often give of go deep into a company or a product versus just bounce and track a bunch of different companies or depends?

莱尼：那么，您经常给出的建议是深入研究一家公司或一款产品，还是只是反弹并跟踪一堆不同的公司或依赖？

Maggie Crowley: It depends.

玛吉·克劳利：这要看情况。

There are lots of really good reasons to bounce.

有很多非常好的反弹理由。

I've done it, many people have done it, but I was surprised at how much I value that experience of having stuck around for a while and how much I learned from it was something I hadn't expected going into it, especially because you don't hear that point of view as much or as I wasn't hearing that point of view as much when I was thinking about the sort of arc of my career, but I'm glad that I did it.

我已经做到了，很多人都做到了，但令我惊讶的是，我如此重视这段坚持了一段时间的经历，以及我从中学到了多少东西，这是我没有预料到的，特别是因为你没有那么多听到这种观点，或者当我思考我的职业生涯时，我没有那么多听到这种观点，但我很高兴我做到了。

And then of course people always want to get promoted, always ask that question and my answer is always create impact and that can take time.

当然，人们总是想升职，总是问这个问题，我的答案总是创造影响，这可能需要时间。

Lenny: At my first job, I was there for nine years and then I started a company for a year and a half and then we sold to Airbnb, and then I was at Airbnb for seven years.

Lenny：在我的第一份工作中，我在那里工作了九年，然后我创办了一家公司一年半，然后我们卖给了 Airbnb，然后我在 Airbnb 工作了七年。

So, I'm very much on that train of just, not that I intended for that to happen, but I definitely went deep and I think there's pros and cons, but there's so many pros to that, so many reasons.

所以，我非常喜欢这趟列车，并不是我打算让这种情况发生，但我确实深入研究了，我认为有利有弊，但有很多优点，有很多原因。

Okay.

好的。

Let's talk about the last part, which is the third point you made, which is carrying the water, I think is how you described it.

我们来说说最后一部分，也就是你提到的第三点，就是挑水，我想你是这么描述的。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah.

玛吉·克劳利：是的。

This one, there's no tips and tricks.

这个，没有任何提示和技巧。

It's just do the work.

这只是做工作。

If you ever find yourself saying something like, that's not my job, that's probably a thing you should do.

如果你发现自己说过这样的话，那不是我的工作，那可能是你应该做的事情。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

It probably isn't your job and it probably is someone else's job and you can spend your life getting frustrated at that or you can just get over and get the work done.

这可能不是你的工作，也可能是别人的工作，你可以为此感到沮丧，或者你可以克服并完成工作。

And people who are willing to just get the work done will move faster, their products will be more successful and they probably aren't carrying around all that anger and crappy emotion.

那些愿意完成工作的人会行动得更快，他们的产品会更成功，而且他们可能不会带着愤怒和糟糕的情绪。

Maggie Crowley: Because we touched on this earlier as a PM for better or for worse, and maybe this is not how we all want it to be, but you're oftentimes the emotional center of the team and it's your job to keep people motivated, keep people excited, keep them bought into the project, and you just have to keep that optimism going.

Maggie Crowley：因为我们作为 PM 之前就谈到了这一点，无论好坏，也许这不是我们都希望的那样，但你常常是团队的情感中心，你的工作就是保持人们的积极性，让人们兴奋，让他们对项目产生兴趣，你只需要保持这种乐观情绪即可。

And it's hard work.

而且这很辛苦。

It's really hard work to stay positive and to keep people amped for that thing.

保持积极的态度并让人们对此充满热情确实很困难。

And part of it can be just like, you know what?

其中一部分可能就像，你知道吗？

Let me take that on.

让我来承担吧。

Let me grab that, whatever.

让我抓住它，无论如何。

I'll do this thing.

我来做这件事。

I'll hop on this sales call, I'll implement this with the customer.

我将参加这次销售电话，我将与客户一起实施这一点。

You just have to do whatever it takes.

你只需要不惜一切代价。

Lenny: It reminds me of one of your lessons that you shared, in one of your podcast episodes.

莱尼：这让我想起你在播客的一集中分享的一课。

It was one of your PM lessons of 2021, and the lesson was, when in doubt it's your job as a PM, which I think relates very much to which it just shared.

这是您 2021 年的 PM 课程之一，该课程是，当您对 PM 的工作有疑问时，我认为这与刚刚分享的内容非常相关。

Can you speak to that?

你能谈谈吗？

Maggie Crowley: It might actually make sense to put this in the context of the other roles that are part of the team.

Maggie Crowley：将其放在团队中其他角色的背景下实际上可能是有意义的。

So, as an engineer, your job is to write the code to really reduce this down and build the thing and make it work to spec.

因此，作为一名工程师，您的工作是编写代码以真正减少这种情况并构建事物并使其符合规范。

As a designer, maybe your job is to design the thing, design the solution, design the user experience.

作为一名设计师，也许你的工作是设计事物、设计解决方案、设计用户体验。

Obviously there's lots more complexity in that role.

显然，这个角色的复杂性要大得多。

Design your amazing engineering, your amazing TLDR, caveat, whatever.

设计你令人惊叹的工程，你令人惊叹的TLDR，警告，等等。

But as a PM, you don't have that thing, right?

但作为PM，你没有那个东西，对吧？

Maggie Crowley: It's not like, oh, my job is just to write the one-pager.

玛吉·克劳利：哦，我的工作不只是写一页纸。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

Your job isn't just to pick the problem.

你的工作不仅仅是找出问题。

Your job is to deliver a business result.

您的工作是交付业务成果。

And so you're uniquely positioned to have to fill in all the gaps because no one else is incentivized to do that.

因此，您处于独特的地位，必须填补所有空白，因为没有其他人有动力这样做。

As an engineer, you can finish your work and hand it off and say, I did it, and the good ones care, but you don't have to care.

作为一名工程师，你可以完成你的工作并将其交给你并说，我做到了，好的人会关心，但你不必关心。

As a PM, you're not going to do your job unless that problem gets solved for the customer or the user at the end of the day.

作为产品经理，除非最终为客户或用户解决问题，否则您将无法完成自己的工作。

And so your job is to make sure everything happens for that product.

因此，您的工作就是确保该产品的一切顺利。

Lenny: It reminds me of another interview you did where you talked about how a lot of the PM job sucks.

Lenny：这让我想起你做过的另一次采访，你谈到 PM 工作有多么糟糕。

It's not as glamorous as people often think, and most of the job is these really boring, annoying things.

它并不像人们通常想象的那么光鲜亮丽，而且大部分工作都是这些非常无聊、烦人的事情。

I guess, is there anything you want to add there of just a lot of people want to get into PM, they're like, oh, I'm going to run the show.

我想，有什么你想补充的吗？很多人都想进入 PM，他们就像，哦，我要主持这个节目。

It's going to be so great.

这将会非常棒。

I'm going to be a product manager and tell people what to do.

我将成为一名产品经理，告诉人们该做什么。

But that's not how it is.

但事实并非如此。

Maggie Crowley: It's just one of those things that people, and when I joined product, it was just sort of becoming a cool job.

Maggie Crowley：这只是人们所关注的事情之一，当我加入产品部门时，它就成为了一项很酷的工作。

It wasn't the hot job on campus when I was in business school.

当我在商学院的时候，这并不是校园里的热门工作。

That was more private equity, venture capital.

那更多的是私募股权、风险投资。

And now there's a sense of cachet around it.

现在它周围有一种威望感。

But again, it comes back to that earlier point, which is you do get to do cool stuff.

但同样，这又回到了之前的观点，那就是你确实可以做一些很酷的事情。

You get to decide what gets built.

您可以决定构建什么。

That's cool.

这很酷。

You have a lot of ownership like we talked about.

正如我们所说，你拥有很多所有权。

You could see it as you have a lot of power, but at the same time you're responsible.

你可以看到它，因为你拥有很大的权力，但同时你也有责任。

Maggie Crowley: And so with that comes this responsibility to get it right, to make the right bets, ship the right products, get them out the door.

玛吉·克劳利：随之而来的是我们有责任把事情做对，做出正确的选择，运送正确的产品，并将它们推出市场。

And so there's a lot of bullshit work you have to do.

所以你必须做很多废话工作。

Again, project management is one everyone hates on.

再说一次，项目管理是每个人都讨厌的一种。

QA is a really good one.

QA 确实是一项非常好的工作。

You should QA your products.

您应该对您的产品进行质量检查。

That's great if you have a QA team, you should QA them.

如果您有 QA 团队，那就太好了，您应该对他们进行 QA。

You should know how they work.

你应该知道它们是如何工作的。

You should implement with your customers, you should be able to sell them, you should be able to find users.

你应该与你的客户一起实施，你应该能够销售他们，你应该能够找到用户。

All that stuff is stuff that you should be able to do, and none of it is above you.

所有这些事情都是你应该能够做的事情，没有一个是在你之上的。

Lenny: If someone is listening and they're not a PM and they are not convinced to not get into product manager, they still want to become a PM, what is your best advice for selling that is trying to get into product management of how to actually break into product management?

Lenny：如果有人在听，但他们不是产品经理，并且不相信自己不进入产品经理，他们仍然想成为产品经理，那么对于试图进入产品管理的销售人员，您最好的建议是什么？如何真正进入产品管理？

Maggie Crowley: I thought about this one a lot and I consulted the Slack workspace team.

Maggie Crowley：我对这个问题思考了很多，并咨询了 Slack 工作空间团队。

Because it's been a long time since I've tried to get into product.

因为我已经很久没有尝试进入产品领域了。

And so I didn't know what was going on these days because it's hard and I don't know if things have changed.

所以我不知道这些天发生了什么，因为这很艰难，我不知道事情是否发生了变化。

I went to business school and that's how I got in.

我去了商学院，这就是我进入的原因。

There was a program that took MBA students.

有一个项目招收 MBA 学生。

I think there are some entry-level programs out there, big tech companies, if you can get them, I think they're really hard to get because they're very few and far between.

我认为大型科技公司有一些入门级项目，如果你能得到它们，我认为它们真的很难得到，因为它们非常少而且相距很远。

And so the most common two paths that I've seen are people who switched laterally within a company.

因此，我见过的最常见的两条路径是公司内部横向跳槽的人。

Again, challenging but can be done.

再次强调，这具有挑战性，但可以做到。

Or people who joined startups.

或者加入初创公司的人。

So, when I was at my last startup, I did hire someone who was coming out of business school who hadn't been into product into a PM role.

因此，当我在上一家初创公司时，我确实聘请了一位刚从商学院毕业但尚未涉足产品的人担任产品经理。

And I can't say I wouldn't do it because it was awesome and she was amazing, but it takes a lot of work.

我不能说我不会这样做，因为这太棒了，她也很棒，但这需要很多工作。

Maggie Crowley: The reason why people don't do it is because as a manager, it takes a lot of work because there's so much that these people need to learn.

玛吉·克劳利：人们不这样做的原因是，作为一名经理，这需要做很多工作，因为这些人需要学习的东西太多了。

And what we ended up doing is she and I spent four months working together in a WeWork in person to help her onboard really quickly into the role, which was so rewarding.

我们最终做的是，她和我在 WeWork 亲自合作了四个月，帮助她快速融入这个角色，这是非常值得的。

And I loved every second of it, and I wish I could do that again and again and again.

我喜欢它的每一秒，我希望我能一次又一次地这样做。

But to get that, she basically just hounded me.

但为了得到这个，她基本上只是追着我。

Christina, if you're listening, you emailed me a lot.

克里斯蒂娜，如果你在听的话，你给我发了很多电子邮件。

We talked a lot and we waited until the time was right and then you finally convinced me to do it.

我们聊了很多，一直等到时机成熟，然后你终于说服我这么做了。

So, I don't know.

所以，我不知道。

I don't if there's a reliable path that I can say this is what my advice would be other than try a startup network.

我不知道是否有可靠的路径，我可以说这就是我的建议，而不是尝试启动网络。

See what you can do.

看看你能做什么。

Lenny: And you've made up this point elsewhere, which I think is an additional key piece is once you have a PM title on your resume, everything gets easier.

Lenny：你已经在其他地方提出了这一点，我认为这是一个额外的关键部分，一旦你的简历上有 PM 头衔，一切都会变得更容易。

As a hiring manager, I'm just like, I look at a resume like, oh, they've never been a PM.

作为一名招聘经理，我看着简历就想，哦，他们从来没有当过产品经理。

This isn't the role.

这不是这个角色。

It's rarely that someone wants someone that's never been a PM.

很少有人想要从未担任过产品经理的人。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah.

玛吉·克劳利：是的。

And I tell people, I do unsurprisingly talk to lots of people who either are in product or want to be in product.

我告诉人们，毫不奇怪，我确实与很多从事产品工作或想从事产品工作的人交谈过。

And that's one of the things I always tell them because if they're deciding between roles and they have an opportunity to do something, and my advice is always, if you can get someone to stamp you with the product manager role, take it.

这是我总是告诉他们的事情之一，因为如果他们在角色之间做出决定，并且他们有机会做某事，我的建议总是，如果你能让有人给你印上产品经理的角色，那就接受吧。

Because to your point, it's what we screen on.

因为就你而言，这就是我们筛选的内容。

It's for better or for worse, it's just like you have to get that first job.

无论好坏，就像你必须得到第一份工作一样。

And then once you get that first job, it all gets easier.

一旦你找到第一份工作，一切都会变得更容易。

You can get in and then you can talk about your experience because then the second question I have is, what have you shipped?

你可以进去，然后你可以谈论你的经历，因为我的第二个问题是，你运送了什么？

So, it's like, have you been at PM before?

那么，就像，你以前在 PM 工作过吗？

What have you shipped?

你运送了什么？

And it's fascinating how quickly people can't answer that question.

令人着迷的是，人们很快就无法回答这个问题。

And the people who can are always several steps ahead of the people.

而有能力的人，总是比别人先走几步。

Lenny: Let's shift topics and talk about product strategy.

Lenny：我们转移话题，谈谈产品策略吧。

Many people are told you need to get better product strategy.

许多人被告知您需要制定更好的产品策略。

You're not great at strategy.

你不擅长策略。

A lot of people are also just confused, what is strategy?

很多人也只是困惑，什么是策略？

How do I get better at strategy?

我如何提高策略？

How do we describe a strategy?

我们如何描述策略？

And you have a really great explanation and overview of how to think about this stuff.

对于如何思考这个问题，你有一个非常好的解释和概述。

So, I'd love to hear your take on just how do you actually write out and describe a strategy.

因此，我很想听听您对如何实际编写和描述策略的看法。

Maggie Crowley: Sure, yeah.

玛吉·克劳利：当然，是的。

And another thing that happens, and I'll give the outline, but another thing I hear, especially as you get further in your career, and unfortunately if you're maybe an underrepresented person in tech, is that you need to be more strategic.

发生的另一件事，我将给出概述，但我听到的另一件事，特别是当你在职业生涯中走得更远时，不幸的是，如果你可能是科技领域代表性不足的人，那就是你需要更具战略性。

And so that's feedback that almost always happens, especially if you're a woman in product, in tech who's knocking at the door of a leadership role.

因此，这种反馈几乎总是会发生，特别是如果你是产品、技术领域的女性，正在敲响领导职位的大门。

You've probably gotten that feedback.

您可能已经收到过这样的反馈。

And so I made it my mission to figure out what the heck is this thing?

所以我的使命就是弄清楚这东西到底是什么？

How do I do it?

我该怎么做？

How can I do it in a way that is demonstrable so that I'm never getting that feedback that's like, oh, she's not strategic.

我怎样才能以一种可证明的方式做到这一点，这样我就永远不会得到这样的反馈：哦，她没有战略眼光。

And so what I did was something that I kind of did in the background because I had an engineer who I worked with who really wanted to understand why we were doing what we were doing, and he was not satisfied with sort of a surface level answer.

所以我所做的事情是我在后台做的事情，因为我有一位和我一起工作的工程师，他真的想了解我们为什么要做我们正在做的事情，而他对表面的答案不满意。

Maggie Crowley: And he was just pushing and pushing and pushing.

玛吉·克劳利：他只是不断地推、推、推。

And so what I did was I just wrote out a Google doc and I started with like, okay, and not fancy, these are just bullets.

所以我所做的就是写了一份谷歌文档，然后我开始说，好吧，不是花哨，这些只是项目符号。

What is the mission?

使命是什么？

What is the point of the company?

公司的重点是什么？

What are our goals?

我们的目标是什么？

Maybe we have some sort of high level framing of what we're working on.

也许我们对我们正在做的事情有某种高层次的框架。

And then I had this big section that was just the landscape.

然后我有一个很大的部分，就是风景。

And in that section I put in what's going on with our business?

在该部分中，我输入了我们的业务进展如何？

What's happening with our products?

我们的产品出了什么问题？

What's our point of view on the market?

我们对市场的看法是什么？

Who are our competitors?

谁是我们的竞争对手？

A SWOT analysis, key risks that we might be facing.

SWOT 分析，我们可能面临的主要风险。

Just dump that all on paper.

把这些都倒在纸上。

Then what are the current quarters business goals or however you do planning, what are the current things that your company's working on?

那么当前季度的业务目标是什么，或者无论您如何规划，您的公司目前正在做什么？

Then I put in, all right, that's sort of the context that we're operating in.

然后我说，好吧，这就是我们正在运作的背景。

Maggie Crowley: Then I wanted to understand where are we.

玛吉·克劳利：然后我想了解我们在哪里。

So what is an honest accounting of the current state of your product, the business overall, and then the specific area that you're working in.

那么，什么是对你的产品的当前状态、整体业务以及你正在从事的特定领域进行诚实的核算呢？

What works, what doesn't work?

什么有效，什么无效？

What are your customers saying?

您的客户怎么说？

Bottoms up feedback, users, customers, teams, what are your support tickets?

自下而上的反馈、用户、客户、团队，您的支持票是什么？

Get that all out on paper.

把这一切都写在纸上。

And then really importantly, where are your technical hurdles?

然后非常重要的是，您的技术障碍在哪里？

What are the big pieces of tech debt?

科技债务的主要部分是什么？

What are your engineering and technical teams always harping on that they want to invest in?

您的工程和技术团队总是喋喋不休地谈论他们想要投资的是什么？

Are there some big things coming down the pipe that you need to think about?

您是否需要考虑一些即将发生的重大事情？

Just get everything on paper.

把一切都写在纸上。

And then usually in the process of writing all that down, you'll start to see, okay, I kind of get where we are.

然后通常在写下所有这些的过程中，你会开始看到，好吧，我有点明白我们现在的处境了。

I kind of get what the challenge is.

我有点明白挑战是什么。

And then you write a section that's like, what's the opportunity?

然后你写一个部分，比如，机会是什么？

Maggie Crowley: From all of that, what's going to bubble up as the top one or two opportunities for your team?

Maggie Crowley：从所有这些来看，对于您的团队来说，最重要的一两个机会是什么？

Where do you want to play?

你想去哪里玩？

Where can you win?

哪里能赢？

Where's the unique?

独特之处在哪里？

Based on your unique competitive advantage, where do you think you all should be and why?

根据你们独特的竞争优势，你们认为你们应该在哪里？为什么？

And then based on that opportunity, what are the challenges?

那么基于这个机会，挑战是什么？

So, what's going to be the hardest about taking advantage of that?

那么，利用这一点最困难的是什么？

What has to be, another way to frame it is what has to be true about the world for that to work?

必须是什么，另一种构建它的方式是，世界必须是真实的，才能发挥作用？

That's a one that's been helpful.

这是一个很有帮助的。

And then what would you do?

然后你会做什么？

Take a swing at writing down your solution, what you would need to build, how might it work?

尝试写下你的解决方案，你需要构建什么，它如何运作？

Anything that you have, this is where I would say three bullets, maybe what you might want to do and then a plan.

无论你拥有什么，我都会在这里说三点，也许你可能想做的事情，然后是一个计划。

If no one else had an opinion, how would you go about it?

如果没有人提出意见，你会如何处理？

Maggie Crowley: How would you sequence it?

玛吉·克劳利：你会如何排序？

What would you do?

你会怎么办？

How might you get the team to work on it?

您如何让团队致力于此？

What would your team have to look like?

你的团队应该是什么样子？

How much would it cost to do it?

做这件事要花多少钱？

All that you can start to layer in all that kind of stuff.

所有这些你都可以开始将所有这些东西分层。

And then I just share the doc.

然后我只是分享该文档。

Share it with everybody.

分享给大家。

There should not be any secret.

不应该有什么秘密。

And you should be able to walk all the way from your company's mission down to the individual priority on your team and see the logic chain and why you got there.

而且您应该能够从公司的使命一直到团队中个人的优先事项，并了解逻辑链以及您到达那里的原因。

And if anyone doesn't agree with it, they can call out where their disagreement lands in that landscape.

如果有人不同意，他们可以指出他们的分歧在该领域的具体位置。

But at least then you've put everything on paper, you understand how you got to where you're going, and then you can have an argument about the different pieces and points of data and feedback that you're getting, but at least people understand how you got where you got.

但至少那时你已经把一切都写在纸上，你明白你是如何到达你要去的地方，然后你可以对你得到的数据和反馈的不同部分和观点进行争论，但至少人们明白你是如何到达你所到达的地方的。

And then it doesn't become like, I don't agree with you.

然后就不会变成“我不同意你的观点”。

It becomes, I don't agree with this point.

看来，我不同意这一点。

Lenny: This is such a cool way of doing it.

莱尼：这是一种很酷的做法。

By the way, is there a template that we can point people to that has this sort of-

顺便说一句，我们是否可以向人们指出一个具有以下内容的模板：

Maggie Crowley: There's not, I've only ever done it in a loose Google doc and then it just grows and changes.

Maggie Crowley：没有，我只是在一个松散的 Google 文档中完成过它，然后它就会不断增长和变化。

I can maybe try to write up those bullets, but it's just like I just make headers and then I just start dumping content in it.

我也许可以尝试写下这些项目符号，但这就像我只是制作标题，然后我开始将内容转储到其中。

Lenny: Yes, that's all people need.

莱尼：是的，这就是人们所需要的。

If you end up creating that before this comes out, we'll throw it in the show notes.

如果您最终在发布之前创建了它，我们会将其放入演出笔记中。

And if not, people can just bother you on Twitter and ask Maggie, where's that template that we talked about?

如果没有，人们可以在 Twitter 上打扰你并询问 Maggie，我们谈论的模板在哪里？

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, I'm happy to write it on a piece of paper and take a photo of it and send it around.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，我很高兴把它写在一张纸上，拍张照片并发送给大家。

Lenny: There you go.

莱尼：给你。

Just make it really grainy and an artifact.

只要让它变得颗粒感十足并且成为人工制品即可。

We found Maggie's template.

我们找到了玛吉的模板。

This is awesome.

这太棒了。

So, I've never heard of a version of this with so much depth into the landscape, and I think that's so smart because so much of conflict and disagreement comes from you just don't have the same information or the manager, exec or whatever doesn't think you have the information.

所以，我从来没有听说过对这个领域有如此深入的了解的版本，我认为这非常聪明，因为很多冲突和分歧都来自于你没有相同的信息，或者经理、执行官或任何认为你没有这些信息的人。

So, if you just lean into, here's everything that I know and here's what's happening, and if you disagree with this goal, tell me, and then it'll change the plan.

所以，如果你只是倾向于，这就是我所知道的一切，这就是正在发生的事情，如果你不同意这个目标，请告诉我，然后它就会改变计划。

Maggie Crowley: Part of it's also that typically speaking, when you're doing a strategy, you're doing it at a higher level.

玛吉·克劳利：部分原因是，通常来说，当你制定策略时，你是在更高的层面上进行的。

So, I don't think every product needs a strategy.

所以，我认为并不是每个产品都需要策略。

Every feature doesn't need a strategy for example, you don't need to do this if you're working on a tiny slice of a product and you have user feedback, don't overcomplicate it, just do the stuff that makes sense.

例如，每个功能都不需要策略，如果您正在开发产品的一小部分并且有用户反馈，则不需要这样做，不要使其过于复杂，只需做有意义的事情即可。

But especially as I've gotten more senior in my career, the questions are bigger and the impact is broader and the timelines are longer.

但尤其是当我在职业生涯中地位越来越高时，问题就更大了，影响也更大了，时间也更长了。

And honestly, it was also because I wanted to get it right.

老实说，这也是因为我想把事情做好。

I didn't want to make a bet on something and put a bunch of resources against a problem and get it wrong.

我不想在某件事上下注，投入大量资源来解决一个问题，但却出错。

And so this was also homework that I wanted to do for myself to know that I was going to do the right thing.

所以这也是我想为自己做的家庭作业，以便知道我会做正确的事情。

For some reason, I'm always paranoid that other people have more information or doing it better than I'm doing it.

出于某种原因，我总是偏执地认为其他人比我拥有更多信息或做得更好。

Maggie Crowley: So, I was like, okay, I have to write it all down and then make sure I got it right and share it with everyone and make sure that they agreed with me so that I didn't screw this thing up.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，我想，好吧，我必须把它全部写下来，然后确保我做对了并与每个人分享，并确保他们同意我的观点，这样我就不会把事情搞砸。

And it just was such a useful exercise that I kept doing it.

这是一个非常有用的练习，所以我一直在做。

And of course people don't read it.

当然人们不会读它。

People only read a tiny section.

人们只读了一小部分。

You'll run into the same problems you run in with everything else, but at least I knew that I had done the work and if people cared to engage with it was there.

你会遇到与其他所有事情相同的问题，但至少我知道我已经完成了这项工作，并且如果人们愿意参与它就在那里。

Lenny: So, along those lines, I was going to actually ask, how long do you find this should be depending either on the timescale, say you're doing a quarterly strategy or a year, how many pages should this doc be as any guide?

莱尼：所以，沿着这些思路，我实际上想问，你发现这应该需要多长时间，这取决于时间尺度，比如说你正在制定季度策略或一年，这个文档应该有多少页作为指导？

Maggie Crowley: The actual content, I end up writing a summary to go back to the Minto principle.

Maggie Crowley：实际内容，我最终写了一个摘要来回到 Minto 原则。

I end up doing the whole thing, then putting a summary at the top so that there's one, within the first, above the fold, if you will.

我最终完成了整个事情，然后将摘要放在顶部，以便在第一个内容中，在首屏上方（如果您愿意）有一个摘要。

You can kind of get the point and the suggestion on what I think we should do or what the strategy should be, should be customizable in that section.

您可以了解我认为我们应该做什么或策略应该是什么的要点和建议，应该在该部分中进行定制。

But it can go 20 pages just because if you really want to get deep in a competitor or there's interesting market dynamics, interesting technological changes that are happening.

但它可以长达 20 页，因为如果你真的想深入了解竞争对手，或者有有趣的市场动态，正在发生有趣的技术变革。

Sometimes I'm screenshotting other companies marketing websites and dumping that in there.

有时我会截取其他公司营销网站的屏幕截图并将其倾倒在那里。

And that might be some interesting comments.

这可能是一些有趣的评论。

So, it doesn't have to just be words or it can be all kinds of different things that you might want to put in there.

因此，它不一定只是文字，也可以是您可能想要放入其中的各种不同的东西。

Lenny: And you made the point that it's not like you expect people to read this whole thing.

莱尼：您指出您并不希望人们阅读整篇文章。

There's the summary that gives them a conclusion and in theory if they want to really dig into it, they can.

摘要给了他们一个结论，理论上，如果他们想真正深入研究，他们可以。

But I guess how do you find that balance of writing everything and making it so long that no one's ever going to read it to like this is actually going to be useful to someone and plus here's a summary.

但我想你如何找到一种平衡，把所有的东西都写下来，然后写得这么长，以至于没有人会读它，这样实际上对某人来说是有用的，再加上这里是一个总结。

Maggie Crowley: It comes back to the reason why I write the document in the first place.

Maggie Crowley：这又回到了我最初写这份文件的原因。

And that's for me.

那是给我的。

So, it's my homework to do my job effectively.

所以，有效地完成工作是我的功课。

I just make sure to share it.

我只是确保分享它。

And I find that my, especially my engineering and design counterparts, if you're working in a true triad, will almost always engage really deeply on the doc because they're pretty much also on the line and they want to make sure that when they sign their teams up to do whatever it is that they believe in the thing that you're working on.

我发现，如果你在一个真正的三合会中工作，我的同事，尤其是我的工程和设计同事，几乎总是会非常深入地参与文档，因为他们也几乎在线上，他们希望确保当他们签约团队做任何事情时，他们相信你正在做的事情。

Maggie Crowley: And so I find that those people will engage pretty deeply.

玛吉·克劳利：所以我发现这些人会非常深入地参与。

Sometimes you'll have more junior folks on the team that'll just be interested and they'll get really into it too.

有时，团队中会有更多的初级人员对此感兴趣，并且也会真正投入其中。

And then there's some people that'll skim the upfront part and either say, yeah, that looks great, or You're dumb, I hate this.

然后有些人会浏览前面的部分，要么说，是的，看起来很棒，要么你很蠢，我讨厌这个。

And okay, sure.

好吧，当然。

There's always those people.

总是有这样的人。

So, it never really mattered to me that people read the whole thing.

所以，人们阅读整篇文章对我来说并不重要。

It was more I knew I had to do it to be confident in my own decisions and then I could facilitate a conversation, so it didn't really matter.

我更知道我必须这样做才能对自己的决定充满信心，然后我才能促进对话，所以这并不重要。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alumni of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I left most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments, easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我留下最深刻的印象之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。

Lenny: Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Lenny：Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了所有这些工作，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，还可以使用可访问的 UI 来更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免恼人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel, Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法，Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at getepo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 getepo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's getE-P-P-O.com/lenny.

那是 getE-P-P-O.com/lenny。

Is there an example of a strategy you were thinking about recently or that you worked on in the past just to give people something concrete of like here's what Maggie thinks of as a question she's going to develop a strategy around?

有没有一个你最近正在考虑的策略的例子，或者你过去致力于向人们提供一些具体的东西，比如玛吉认为她将围绕这个问题制定一个策略？

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, I think, obviously this is where product content gets really challenging because obviously I can't really talk about the stuff I'm currently working on.

Maggie Crowley：是的，我认为，显然这是产品内容真正具有挑战性的地方，因为显然我无法真正谈论我目前正在研究的东西。

Lenny: Just tell us all of the secrets.

莱尼：告诉我们所有的秘密吧。

And that know.

那知道。

Maggie Crowley: The toast PR department would be really unhappy with me.

玛吉·克劳利：吐司公关部门会对我非常不满意。

It's questions like, if you're a director of product somewhere, maybe you're running a section of a business and it's annual planning.

问题是，如果你是某个地方的产品总监，也许你正在管理一个业务部门，这是年度计划。

We're in Q4.

我们正处于第四季度。

What are you going to do next year?

明年你打算做什么？

How do you answer that question?

你如何回答这个问题？

How do you back up your choices for that?

您如何支持您的选择？

You use a doc like this.

你使用这样的文档。

Maybe you are realizing that the product that you're working on doesn't really matter, it's not really making an impact.

也许您意识到您正在开发的产品并不重要，它并没有真正产生影响。

You're kind of treading water.

你有点如履薄冰。

I would use this as a tool to figure out, okay, well what else could you do?

我会用它作为一个工具来弄清楚，好吧，你还能做什么？

So, yeah, quarterly planning, annual planning.

所以，是的，季度计划、年度计划。

If you feel like your team needs to make a pivot or if you think that there's a really interesting new opportunity that your business or your team should go after, is another time I might use something like this.

如果您觉得您的团队需要做出调整，或者您认为您的企业或团队应该追求一个非常有趣的新机会，那么我可能会再次使用类似的方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

This reminds me a little bit of, I keep mentioning this chat with Bill Carr that I had who is an early Amazon exec and how the narrative approach at Amazon, one of the benefits of that and the reasons they go there is partly for you to realize this is a bad idea before anyone even needs to give you feedback.

这让我想起了一点，我一直提到我与比尔·卡尔（Bill Carr）的一次聊天，他是亚马逊的早期高管，以及亚马逊的叙事方式，这样做的好处之一以及他们去那里的原因部分是让你在任何人需要给你反馈之前就意识到这是一个坏主意。

And that's why they force you to write six pages in depth about your idea and then it goes in these concentric circles through the company.

这就是为什么他们强迫你详细写下六页纸来阐述你的想法，然后它在公司的同心圆中传播。

And idea is like, here's okay, and this is just not a good idea.

我的想法是，没关系，但这不是一个好主意。

Here's all the reasons why.

这就是所有原因。

So, I think there's a lot of similarities there.

所以，我认为那里有很多相似之处。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, there are many, many times when if you combine this artifact and process with the point about simplification where through that process you just start cutting so many things because then what happens is, let's say you've gone through this exercise and you're like, okay, I know exactly what my three things are that I want to work on.

Maggie Crowley：是的，很多时候，如果你将这个工件和流程与简化的观点结合起来，通过这个流程，你就开始削减很多东西，因为然后会发生的情况是，假设你已经完成了这个练习，你会说，好吧，我确切地知道我想要做的三件事是什么。

Then there's a moment where you take the strategy and then you look at your roadmap and they're never the same.

然后，当你采取策略并查看路线图时，你会发现它们从来都不相同。

And the roadmap is just bloated with all of this random stuff that like, oh, well, we have to do that because of this, or we have to do that because of that.

路线图充满了所有这些随机的东西，比如，哦，好吧，因为这个我们必须这样做，或者因为那个我们必须这样做。

Maggie Crowley: This thing we're still working on, this is like six months delayed, so we're still going to do the thing.

玛吉·克劳利：这件事我们仍在努力，这就像推迟了六个月，所以我们仍然会做这件事。

And then all of a sudden you've got 90% of your resources committed to things that don't track against your strategy.

然后突然之间，您将 90% 的资源投入到与您的策略不相符的事情上。

And it's a really interesting moment as a leader especially to sit there and go, well, what do we do?

作为领导者，这是一个非常有趣的时刻，尤其是坐在那里思考，好吧，我们该怎么办？

What do you do when you have that problem?

当你遇到这个问题时你会怎么做？

And especially if you're a PM, you probably don't have the agency to say, scrap the entire roadmap and work on my new strategy.

尤其是如果你是一名产品经理，你可能没有权力说放弃整个路线图并致力于我的新战略。

But at least it allows you to think about critically about whether you should be doing what you're doing and allows you to evaluate whether those things are still the most important things to work on.

但至少它可以让你批判性地思考你是否应该做你正在做的事情，并让你评估这些事情是否仍然是最重要的事情。

Lenny: I'm going to summarize the template real quick, and then I'm going to have another question kind of along the lines.

Lenny：我将快速总结一下模板，然后我将提出另一个类似的问题。

So, if you're trying to create your own little template, you start with the mission of the business, and then I imagine you also share the mission of your team because oftentimes it's a little more specific, if you're working on it like a product team strategy.

因此，如果您尝试创建自己的小模板，那么您将从业务使命开始，然后我想您也会分享您团队的使命，因为如果您像产品团队策略一样致力于它，那么它通常会更具体一些。

Then there's a landscape of what's happening.

然后就是正在发生的事情的情况。

So, you include competitive, SWOT analysis of competition risks, product state, business state, things like that.

因此，您需要包括竞争性、竞争风险的 SWOT 分析、产品状态、业务状态等。

Lenny: And then you share the current goals of what you're trying to achieve as a team slash business.

Lenny：然后您分享了作为团队削减业务您正在努力实现的当前目标。

And there's an account, honest accounting of what's happening in the product and technical hurdles and things like that that'll keep you from moving, I guess, achieving some of these goals.

我想，有一个帐户，对产品中发生的事情和技术障碍以及类似的事情进行诚实的说明，这将阻止您实现其中一些目标。

And then you share, here's the opportunity I see, how we win and how we actually achieve this opportunity where we place bets and things like that, or we could place bets.

然后你分享，这是我看到的机会，我们如何获胜，以及我们如何真正实现这个机会，我们下注或类似的事情，或者我们可以下注。

Then challenges of doing this, what needs to be true for this to be possible?

那么这样做的挑战是，需要什么才能做到这一点？

And then you finally get to, here's what I think we should do, essentially the solution, ideally three bullet points, and then the plan.

然后你终于明白了，这就是我认为我们应该做的，本质上是解决方案，最好是三个要点，然后是计划。

And I imagine the plan is step one, get sign off from exec.

我想该计划是第一步，得到执行官的批准。

Step two, resource the team.

第二步，为团队提供资源。

Step three, start on this design research sprint.

第三步，开始这个设计研究冲刺。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

All right.

好的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Somebody will create this template if you don't end up doing it.

如果您最终不这样做，有人会创建此模板。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

That'd be awesome.

那太棒了。

If they do, I will tweet it and we put it in the show notes.

如果他们这样做，我会在推特上发布，并将其放入演出笔记中。

Lenny: So many promises already from this podcast.

莱尼：这个播客已经做出了很多承诺。

Along the same lines, you also have a one-pager template and process that I think people find really useful.

同样，您还有一个单页模板和流程，我认为人们发现它非常有用。

So, how about we chat about that one briefly and then I'm going to go in a whole different direction.

那么，我们简单地讨论一下这个问题怎么样，然后我将走向一个完全不同的方向。

Maggie Crowley: Okay.

玛吉·克劳利：好的。

Yeah, I don't think I have much to say about this.

是的，我想我对此没什么可说的。

That has not been said by many people many times, but whether it's a spec, a PRD, a one pager, I don't even know what else people call it.

这并没有被很多人说过很多次，但无论它是一个规范，一个 PRD，还是一个寻呼机，我什至不知道人们还叫它什么。

It's the document that you use to define the thing that you're doing as a product team, and that means product design, engineering, your little squad.

这是您用来定义产品团队正在做的事情的文档，这意味着产品设计、工程、您的小团队。

And what I think is really useful about this process is that it's the PM's artifact.

我认为这个过程真正有用的是它是 PM 的产物。

So, designers produce designs, engineers write code.

因此，设计师进行设计，工程师编写代码。

What do PMs do?

PM 做什么？

A lot of people might say nothing.

很多人可能什么也不说。

In theory, we write at least this document and it can be a pain.

理论上，我们至少要写这个文档，这可能会很痛苦。

I've seen lots of ways where it hasn't been done very well, but when I think it's done really well and when it's really effective is it's a tool that allows the PM to start with why.

我见过很多做得不太好的方法，但当我认为它做得非常好并且真正有效时，它就是一个让 PM 开始了解原因的工具。

And if you structure it correctly, the most important section in my opinion in the document is the first part, which is like what is the background and context?

如果结构正确，我认为文档中最重要的部分是第一部分，就像背景和上下文是什么？

Maggie Crowley: What is the problem, why does it matter and why does it matter now?

玛吉·克劳利：问题是什么，为什么它很重要，为什么它现在很重要？

And if you get those things right, the rest gets really easy, but it gives you a chance as a PM to center the team around the problem, why that problem exists, whether it's created by your own product or it's something the user is experiencing and why that problem is worth solving.

如果你把这些事情做好了，剩下的事情就会变得非常容易，但它让你作为产品经理有机会让团队围绕问题展开，为什么这个问题存在，它是由你自己的产品造成的还是用户正在经历的事情，以及为什么这个问题值得解决。

That's a part that I think people sometimes forget to think about and why it's we're solving right now versus all the other problems you could be solving and then it can become the home base of the decisions that you make along the way.

我认为人们有时会忘记考虑这一点，以及为什么我们现在正在解决这个问题，而不是你可以解决的所有其他问题，然后它可以成为你一路上做出的决策的基础。

So, I think it's best when you have those sections and then also best when you write down on this day, we made this decision or we decided not to do this or we decided only to solve this part of the problem, not this part of the problem.

所以，我认为最好是当你有这些部分时，然后最好是当你在这一天写下，我们做出了这个决定，或者我们决定不这样做，或者我们决定只解决问题的这一部分，而不是问题的这一部分。

Keeping a running list of that and a link off to all the different artifacts and research and things is helpful for a team.

保留一个运行列表以及所有不同工件和研究的链接对团队很有帮助。

Lenny: So, just to summarize, what would be the headings again, just if someone's taking notes and wants to create the rule template?

Lenny：那么，总结一下，如果有人记笔记并想要创建规则模板，标题又会是什么？

Maggie Crowley: I don't think these templates have to be really complicated.

Maggie Crowley：我认为这些模板不必非常复杂。

It's like background and context.

这就像背景和上下文。

The problem.

问题。

I would literally write why this problem matters and why this problem matters now.

我会逐字写出为什么这个问题很重要以及为什么这个问题现在很重要。

Don't make it complicated, just answer those questions and if you can do that, and then again, it's only really helpful if then you bring that document before you go any further to your team and you use it to have a conversation and you get the smart people around you to take shots at it.

不要让事情变得复杂，只要回答这些问题，如果你能做到这一点，那么，只有在你进一步向你的团队提供该文档并使用它进行对话并让你周围的聪明人参与其中时，它才会真正有帮助。

I should have mentioned this earlier with the strategy.

我应该早点在策略中提到这一点。

The first person I go to is typically speaking my engineering counterpart and I say, shred this, go through it, rip it apart, vomit comments on it, tear this down how it gets better.

我去找的第一个人通常会说我的工程同行，我说，撕碎这个，仔细检查它，撕开它，吐出对它的评论，撕碎它如何变得更好。

And as a PM you can't be precious about your work.

作为一名产品经理，你不能珍惜你的工作。

You need people to poke holes in it.

你需要有人来戳破它。

Lenny: The why this matters now point is so interesting.

莱尼：为什么这现在很重要这一点非常有趣。

I don't often hear that and I think it's such an important part of specs and plans and strategies because there's so many things you can do and there's certain things that are perishable that you can only do now.

我不经常听到这样的说法，但我认为这是规范、计划和策略的重要组成部分，因为你可以做很多事情，而有些事情是容易消失的，你只能现在做。

That if you don't do now you miss up the opportunity.

如果你现在不这样做，你就会错过机会。

And so I think that's a really interesting element that most people don't include and it reminds me of, I think I've done enough podcast episodes now where I'm just connecting all these things as people are talking.

所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的元素，大多数人都没有包括在内，它让我想起，我想我现在已经做了足够多的播客剧集，我只是在人们谈论时将所有这些事情联系起来。

the John Nash thing happening where Karri, the founder of Linear talked about this concept of side quests as a founder.

在 John Nash 事件中，Linear 的创始人 Karri 作为创始人谈到了支线任务的概念。

Because he's so good at staying focused and I was just like, "How do you stay focused and just get stuff done when you have so many people coming out?" He's just like, "There's the main quest and then there's the side quests and side quest I don't need to do right now.

因为他非常善于保持专注，而我就想，“当你有这么多人出来的时候，你如何保持专注并完成工作呢？”他就像是，“有主线任务，然后有支线任务和我现在不需要做的支线任务。

There's the main quest which is build up really successful business." And I feel like this is a good example of that in action.

主要任务是建立真正成功的业务。”我觉得这是一个很好的例子。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, I love his take on quality and taste too.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，我也喜欢他对品质和品味的看法。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, big fan of that.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，我非常喜欢这个。

But yeah, I mean it's really hard to stay disciplined, it's hard to stay focused and to your point, there's a million things you could do at any given time, especially if you work at a bigger company.

但是，是的，我的意思是，保持纪律真的很难，保持专注也很难，就你的观点而言，在任何特定时间你都可以做一百万件事，尤其是如果你在一家更大的公司工作的话。

And so the why now is an important question to answer because if not, somebody's going to ask you.

因此，为什么现在是一个需要回答的重要问题，因为如果没有，就会有人问你。

So, you may as well think about it.

所以，你不妨考虑一下。

Lenny: Yeah, it's interesting why now comes up a lot in investing in startups but rarely in product building and it feels like it should.

莱尼：是的，有趣的是，为什么现在对初创公司的投资很多，但在产品构建方面却很少，而且感觉应该如此。

Although I will say in the research I've done, why now ends up not being that important for startups being successful or not.

尽管我会在我所做的研究中说，为什么现在对于初创公司的成功与否来说并不那么重要。

So, I think there's a two sides to that coin.

所以，我认为硬币有两面。

Anyway, I'm going to move on to a different topic and this might become a new thing that we do and I'm going to call it contrarian corner.

不管怎样，我将转向另一个话题，这可能会成为我们所做的一件新事情，我将称之为逆向角。

I asked you if you have contrarian opinions about things before we started recording this episode and you had some really good ones.

在我们开始录制这一集之前，我问过你对事物是否有相反的观点，你有一些非常好的观点。

So, there's a couple topics I'm going to chat about and we'll see if this becomes a recurring theme and you're laughing and nodding your head, what are you thinking as I say this?

所以，我要聊几个话题，我们看看这是否会成为一个反复出现的主题，你一边笑着一边点头，当我这么说的时候你在想什么？

Maggie Crowley: I'm thinking about when I had a podcast, you would do a show on a topic and we would click the end recording button and then every single guest would be like, I had no idea what I was doing.

玛吉·克劳利：我在想当我有一个播客时，你会就一个主题做一个节目，我们会点击结束录制按钮，然后每个客人都会说，我不知道我在做什么。

I made it all up, it was waterfall.

这都是我编的，那是瀑布。

None of that matters.

这些都不重要。

I didn't know what I was ...

我不知道我是什么...

People would say the wildest stuff and I would sit there as a PM and just think what.

人们会说一些最疯狂的话，而我会作为产品经理坐在那里思考什么。

We just talked about this framework, we just talked about this thing and that's how you're supposed to do it.

我们刚刚讨论了这个框架，我们刚刚讨论了这个事情，这就是你应该如何做的。

And then they would get off the official part and just say, yeah, it's wild.

然后他们就会离开官方部分并只是说，是的，这太疯狂了。

Nothing goes the way you want it to go.

一切都不会如你所愿。

We're all just kind of making it up as we go.

我们只是一边走一边弥补。

And so I hope that you get more of those takes in this part of the show.

所以我希望你能在这部分节目中得到更多的收获。

Lenny: I'm very sensitive to that point right now because someone just tweeted about how they're just finding that many of my newsletter posts about how companies write product are the ideal version of what they do and I rarely or they rarely share, here's all the challenges we're having, which I think there's truth to that, but I also get into a lot of failures on this podcast.

莱尼：我现在对这一点非常敏感，因为有人刚刚发推文说他们发现我的许多关于公司如何编写产品的时事通讯帖子是他们所做的事情的理想版本，我很少或他们很少分享，这是我们面临的所有挑战，我认为这是事实，但我在这个播客上也遇到了很多失败。

Actually, I think the podcast is a lot more of just here's things that go wrong versus the newsletter.

事实上，我认为播客与时事通讯相比，更多的是出问题的地方。

So, I'm just like shit, I need to do more of that.

所以，我就像狗屎一样，我需要做更多的事情。

So, I love that you mentioned that and let's see what we can get into.

所以，我很高兴你提到这一点，让我们看看我们可以讨论什么。

But I guess maybe before we get there, is there an example of something that didn't go just along the lines of some sort of failure slash mistake?

但我想也许在我们到达那里之前，是否有一个例子表明某些事情不只是沿着某种失败斜杠错误的路线？

Maggie Crowley: I might be foreshadowing, but a question I ask in every product interview is what's the worst product you've ever shipped?

Maggie Crowley：我可能是在做铺垫，但我在每次产品采访中都会问的一个问题是，您发货过的最糟糕的产品是什么？

And that's because I don't think you're a good PM if you haven't shipped something that's really shitty, you just haven't had enough reps, you haven't done it enough time.

那是因为如果你没有交付一些非常糟糕的东西，我认为你不是一个好的产品经理，你只是没有足够的代表，你没有做足够的时间。

And it's not only that you've done it but that you can admit it and which one it is.

不仅是你已经做到了，而且你可以承认它是哪一件事。

That's so important.

这非常重要。

And I remember, it was so dumb, I'm still so mad about this, that we did this.

我记得，这太愚蠢了，我仍然对此很生气，我们这样做了。

I won't name which team, which company, I'm not going to call that out, but we decided we needed to do a rewrite, red flag number one of a existing product and engineer who I'd worked with many times.

我不会说出哪个团队、哪个公司的名字，我不会指出这一点，但我们决定需要对与我合作过很多次的现有产品和工程师进行重写，这是第一大危险信号。

We had a really good relationship and this person was like, yeah, yeah, it's going to take six months, no problem.

我们的关系非常好，这个人说，是的，是的，这需要六个月，没问题。

Maggie Crowley: Core part of the product been around for forever.

Maggie Crowley：产品的核心部分永远存在。

One of those things that the code is still, it's still the code written by the founders kind of thing.

其中之一是代码仍然是，它仍然是创始人编写的代码之类的东西。

It didn't take six months, it took two and a half years.

不是六个月，而是两年半。

It still wasn't done.

事情还没有完成。

It almost never, it went on for so much longer than it should have.

它几乎从来没有，它持续的时间比应有的时间长得多。

It took us forever to get to feature parody.

我们花了很长时间才开始模仿。

It was the worst project.

这是最糟糕的项目。

So, many people rotated in and out of it.

于是，很多人轮流进出。

Everyone thought it was dumb, sunk cost fallacy, just the worst.

每个人都认为这是愚蠢的沉没成本谬论，而且是最糟糕的。

And it's because A, we got arrogant and we thought we could do it.

这是因为A，我们变得傲慢，我们认为我们可以做到。

B, we skipped discovery.

B，我们跳过了发现。

We didn't really write a one-pager, we just went for it.

我们并没有真正写一个单页程序，我们只是去做它。

We didn't do enough technical and design research into what the requirements would actually have to be.

我们没有对实际需求进行足够的技术和设计研究。

And there you have it.

现在你就得到了它。

Lenny: And did not work out or was it a huge success in the end and it changed the trajectory of the business?

莱尼：没有成功，还是最终取得了巨大成功并改变了业务发展轨迹？

Maggie Crowley: Absolutely not.

玛吉·克劳利：绝对不是。

But you know what, I didn't get fired, so it's fine.

但你知道吗，我没有被解雇，所以没关系。

Lenny: I feel like I've gone through those experiences and then three, four years later it's like another, maybe this rewrite and redesign may work because we haven't updated this thing in a long time.

Lenny：我觉得我已经经历了这些经历，然后三、四年后它就像另一个，也许这个重写和重新设计可能会起作用，因为我们已经很长时间没有更新这个东西了。

Maggie Crowley: Just don't do it.

玛吉·克劳利：别这么做。

Don't rewrite.

不要重写。

If anyone ever tells you to do a rewrite, don't do it.

如果有人告诉您要重写，请不要这样做。

A side by side re-write, nope.

并排重写，不。

Lenny: Yeah, what I run into is once you get too far down a redesign slash rewrite everyone's building in that new world and then you launch an experiment's negative and then it's just like, oh, we just got to launch it.

莱尼：是的，我遇到的情况是，一旦你在重新设计斜杠上走得太远，重写每个人在那个新世界中的建筑，然后你启动一个实验的负面结果，然后就像，哦，我们必须启动它。

We're going to claw back.

我们要抓回来。

We're going to get figure out how to get back to neutral someday.

有一天我们会想办法恢复到中立状态。

Lenny: Good times.

莱尼：美好时光。

Okay, well maybe we'll start a failure corner.

好吧，也许我们会开始一个失败的角落。

That could be a new segment.

这可能是一个新的细分市场。

We may have a little sound and theme music, but this time we have contrarian corner and you have a couple contrarian opinions about a couple topics.

我们可能有一些声音和主题音乐，但这次我们有逆向角，您对几个主题有一些逆向意见。

The first is product management.

首先是产品管理。

What is something that you believe about product management that maybe other people are less convinced by?

关于产品管理，您认为哪些事情是其他人不太相信的？

Maggie Crowley: The one I like to have in this area is that people who are really excited about being data-driven, to me that is oftentimes a red flag for their product thinking, especially if it's an executive who's saying things like, oh, so we make all our decisions with our dashboards.

Maggie Crowley：在这个领域，我喜欢的是那些对数据驱动真正感到兴奋的人，对我来说，这通常是他们产品思维的危险信号，特别是如果是一位高管说这样的话，哦，所以我们通过仪表板做出所有决策。

To me that says that the team is over-emphasizing quantitative data at the expense of qualitative data and they're not using good judgment.

对我来说，这表明该团队过度强调定量数据而忽视了定性数据，并且他们没有使用良好的判断力。

They probably don't do a lot of direct user research.

他们可能没有做很多直接的用户研究。

They don't really understand the humans who are using the thing, what they need, what they care about, and they're managing via a dashboard.

他们并不真正了解正在使用这个东西的人，他们需要什么，他们关心什么，并且他们通过仪表板进行管理。

And maybe if they got really, really good at picking metrics, it would be fine.

也许如果他们真的非常擅长选择指标，那就太好了。

And oftentimes maybe it is fine.

通常情况下也许没什么问题。

Maybe you have a high volume business that's really easy to run experiments on and that works for you.

也许您的业务量很大，很容易进行实验并且适合您。

But most PMs, most jobs, most products, you're going to be better off talking to 10 users and you'll get more and better insights out of why things are happening than you would with any dashboard.

但对于大多数产品经理、大多数工作、大多数产品来说，与 10 个用户交谈会更好，并且比使用任何仪表板更能了解事情发生的原因。

Lenny: So, the takeaway there is just be careful when someone is saying they're super data-driven.

莱尼：所以，当有人说他们是超级数据驱动的时候，要小心。

Our team is super data-driven or company company's super data-driven.

我们的团队是超级数据驱动或者公司公司的超级数据驱动。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, and maybe it's true and that's great.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，也许这是真的，那太好了。

I am not saying that you don't need data.

我并不是说你不需要数据。

You absolutely do need to instrument your products and understand if it's working at scale, but you can't forget that, you need to know why.

您绝对需要对您的产品进行检测并了解它是否能够大规模运行，但您不能忘记这一点，您需要知道原因。

It won't tell you why anything is happening.

它不会告诉您为什么会发生任何事情。

If you don't understand why it's happening, I don't think you can come up with good insights about what you should do next.

如果您不明白为什么会发生这种情况，我认为您无法对下一步应该做什么提出很好的见解。

One quick story on this.

关于这一点的一个简短的故事。

I remember really early on in my career, Adam Medros, who was a VP at TripAdvisor, we were in a room, just had this meeting called product review that was amazing when I first joined and someone was justifying this project and he just, I hope he is okay with me saying this because this is my memory of this moment.

我记得在我职业生涯的早期，亚当·梅德罗斯 (Adam Medros) 是 TripAdvisor 的副总裁，我们在一个房间里，刚刚召开了一次名为产品审查的会议，当我第一次加入时，这真是太棒了，有人为这个项目辩护，他只是，我希望他同意我这么说，因为这是我对这一刻的记忆。

Maggie Crowley: He was just like, this is an obviously better thing.

玛吉·克劳利：他就像，这显然是一件更好的事情。

Just do it.

去做就对了。

Stop.

停止。

Stop it.

停止吧。

Stop doing all the stuff that you're doing.

停止做你正在做的所有事情。

Stop with these numbers, whatever it was that they were doing, if it's obviously better, if it's logically better, use your good judgment and do that thing and let's move on.

停止这些数字，无论他们在做什么，如果明显更好，如果逻辑上更好，请运用你的良好判断力并做那件事，然后让我们继续前进。

And I've always thought about that, but you can just do the obviously better thing.

我一直在思考这一点，但你可以做明显更好的事情。

Lenny: Yeah, I love that I pull that card sometimes, but I think you almost have to do it that way of just like, okay, everyone, this one's just obviously a good idea.

莱尼：是的，我喜欢有时抽出那张牌，但我认为你几乎必须这样做，就像，好吧，大家，这显然是个好主意。

Let's just do it.

我们就这么做吧。

Enough research.

足够的研究。

Okay, another topic that you have some interesting opinions about his product content very close to our hearts, both my heart and your heart.

好吧，另一个话题是你对他的产品内容有一些有趣的看法，非常贴近我们的心，无论是我的心还是你的心。

Do share.

分享吧。

Maggie Crowley: Really if you're going to make good content, you have to sanitize and frameworkize the thing that you're working on.

玛吉·克劳利：真的，如果你想制作出好的内容，你就必须对你正在做的事情进行清理和框架化。

And then slowly, I think for a lot of people who are reading it and looking at it, their thinking starts to become, well look how well I did this framework.

然后慢慢地，我认为对于很多正在阅读和研究它的人来说，他们的想法开始变成，看看我这个框架做得有多好。

Look how well I implemented this thing.

看看我把这件事实施得有多好。

And they lose touch with the point which is creating impact.

他们失去了对创造影响力的关注点。

And so all of this content makes it really noisy and then makes people think that, oh, if I just do these things that I'll get what I want.

所以所有这些内容让它变得非常吵闹，然后让人们认为，哦，如果我做这些事情，我就会得到我想要的。

And now I'll just check off my list and then I checked it off and then I should get my promotion at the end of the day.

现在我只需核对我的清单，然后我就核对它，然后我应该在一天结束时获得晋升。

But it's like the best PMs have built up so many different frameworks and they can apply them in different ways.

但这就像最好的产品经理已经建立了很多不同的框架，并且他们可以以不同的方式应用它们。

And then sometimes they throw them out and they say, nothing I have in my toolkit makes sense for this moment, but I know what to do because I have intuition and I have data and I've talked to users or whatever.

然后有时他们会把它们扔掉，他们说，目前我的工具包中没有任何东西有意义，但我知道该怎么做，因为我有直觉，我有数据，我已经与用户交谈过或其他什么。

Maggie Crowley: And so content sometimes can get in the way of the impact because you're trying to apply it and you think that the point is the framework and the point is the one pager or whatever it is that you're doing when it's not.

玛吉·克劳利：所以内容有时会妨碍影响，因为你试图应用它，你认为重点是框架，重点是一个寻呼机或任何你正在做的事情，但实际上不是。

And then if you're a leader and maybe if you've had the good and ill fortune of having published content, someone comes to you and says, well, you said in that one podcast episode that you don't believe in roadmaps, so why are you asking me for a roadmap?

然后，如果你是一名领导者，也许你有幸或不幸发布了内容，有人来找你说，好吧，你在那一集播客中说你不相信路线图，那么你为什么要向我要路线图呢？

And then you're the who's sitting there being like, well, it's a little more complicated than that.

然后你就是坐在那儿的人，嗯，事情比这更复杂一点。

And that was a fun take that I had, but I actually need to understand what we're doing because planning and I need to figure out what my budget is, blah, blah, blah.

这是我的一个有趣的想法，但我实际上需要了解我们在做什么，因为计划和我需要弄清楚我的预算是多少，等等，等等。

Lenny: That's so funny that I didn't think about you as a leader having put stuff out that people put back at you.

莱尼：这太有趣了，我没有想到你作为一个领导者已经发布了人们向你反馈的东西。

And I think your point about one for you, for people to consume content online about how to do product management, you have to really distill it.

我认为你的观点对于你来说，对于人们在线消费有关如何进行产品管理的内容，你必须真正提炼它。

And to your point, it often loses the nuance.

就你而言，它常常失去细微差别。

Because if you had all the ones, no one's going to even read it so complicated and long.

因为如果你拥有所有这些，就没有人会读得那么复杂和长。

And then the other point of there's also just it has to be interesting.

还有一点就是它必须很有趣。

So, if it's another just like, here's how a roadmap really is successfully and it's like what everyone's already done, no one's going to read it.

所以，如果是另一个，就像这样，路线图是如何真正成功的，就像每个人都已经做过的那样，没有人会读它。

So, you always have to have a new take.

所以，你总是需要有新的想法。

And with that comes, it's not actually always true.

随之而来的是，它实际上并不总是正确的。

I just wanted people to react to this idea.

我只是想让人们对这个想法做出反应。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, I mean it's helpful.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，我的意思是这很有帮助。

I think there's some people who create, I mean there's many things at my last role, we all had your newsletter and we listened to the show and then people would bring, I should have found a clip, but I can't remember, there were a couple of moments where we would listen to a piece of it or find an article and say, oh, this could help.

我认为有一些人在创作，我的意思是在我的上一个角色中有很多东西，我们都有你们的时事通讯，我们听了节目，然后人们会带来，我应该找到一个剪辑，但我不记得了，有几次我们会听其中的一部分或找到一篇文章，然后说，哦，这可能有帮助。

Or what if we did it that way?

或者如果我们这样做怎么办？

I think there was a newsletter article about Figma and they had some templates.

我认为有一篇关于 Figma 的时事通讯文章，他们有一些模板。

They're like product review template for FigJam.

它们就像 FigJam 的产品评论模板。

Love that one.

喜欢那个。

Use that one all the time.

一直使用那个。

Maggie Crowley: So, yeah, I mean the stuff's really useful.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，是的，我的意思是这些东西真的很有用。

It's just like you have to be smart about when you apply it.

就像你在应用它时必须聪明一样。

And then if you're a leader and there's all this content available, you have to know why you're not following the rules.

然后，如果您是领导者并且有所有这些内容可用，您必须知道为什么您不遵守规则。

Lenny: If they're just like, hey, look at this newsletter post letting you write, we should be doing it this way.

莱尼：如果他们只是说，嘿，看看这篇让你写的新闻通讯文章，我们就应该这样做。

Versus I think people assume these are the one way to do it or innately will work at your company.

相反，我认为人们认为这些是实现这一目标的唯一方法，或者天生就适合你的公司。

And I really like your point, which maybe counter to what I do, but I think it's an important nuance that I feel like I should add to every newsletters.

我真的很喜欢你的观点，这可能与我所做的相反，但我认为这是一个重要的细微差别，我觉得我应该添加到每封新闻通讯中。

This isn't necessarily going to work at your company.

这不一定适用于您的公司。

Sometimes the culture is different and this won't fit or this isn't a complete version.

有时文化不同，这不适合或者不是完整的版本。

As much as I try to give people, here's everything you need to do this thing well, there's always a little bit missing

尽管我尽力为人们提供一切，但这就是做好这件事所需的一切，但总会有一些缺失

Maggie Crowley: And I think if you don't have that context, it can be a little demoralizing like, well, how am I ever going to do that thing that they get to do at this magical company?

玛吉·克劳利：我认为，如果你没有这样的背景，可能会有点士气低落，比如，我怎么能做他们在这家神奇公司做的事情呢？

But again, if you view it as more like here all the tools that you can add to your toolkit and you pull them out when you're in a situation from which they can be useful, that's how I think about it.

但同样，如果你把它看作更像是你可以添加到你的工具包中的所有工具，并且当你处于它们可以发挥作用的情况时将它们拉出来，这就是我的想法。

Versus this is the one way to do it like you said, the only way you can write a one page or the only way you can write an experiment, it's more like you can do it in many different ways.

与像你说的那样，这是实现这一目标的唯一方法，是你可以编写一页或唯一可以编写实验的方法，它更像是你可以通过多种不同的方式来完成它。

Lenny: And I find myself, I'm not actually, I rarely tell people here's the way to do it.

莱尼：我发现我自己，实际上我不是，我很少告诉人们这是这样做的方法。

Usually what I try to describe is here's how the best companies do it, as much as I can get into and leave it to the reader to decide is this going to be a fit for me, should I try to implement it?

通常我试图描述的是最好的公司是如何做到这一点的，我会尽可能地深入并留给读者来决定这是否适合我，我应该尝试实施它吗？

But still, I think there's an implication.

但我仍然认为这是有影响的。

This is the way to do research, here's the way to do roadmap, here's the way to prioritize.

这是进行研究的方法，这是制定路线图的方法，这是确定优先级的方法。

But I think it's interesting that you also, yourself create a lot of content and you actually found a lot of value from being, let's not call you content creator because I don't like being labeled as a creator myself.

但我认为有趣的是，你自己也创造了很多内容，而且你实际上发现了很多价值，我们不要称你为内容创造者，因为我自己不喜欢被贴上创造者的标签。

Maggie Crowley: Someone one's called me a product influencer and I'll died like a little bit.

玛吉·克劳利：有人称我为产品影响者，我会死掉一点点。

Lenny: That's how I feel.

莱尼：我就是这么感觉的。

I'd love to hear just the impact you've seen from spending time creating podcasts and blog posts and tweeting about really great stuff because a lot of people are thinking about investing in this stuff.

我很想听听您花时间创建播客和博客文章以及发布有关真正伟大事物的推文所带来的影响，因为很多人都在考虑投资这些东西。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, it's probably the best thing I've ever done for my career and I am so grateful for the people whose idea it was, who supported me and especially at Drift, when that became such a part of what we were doing at that time.

Maggie Crowley：是的，这可能是我职业生涯中做过的最好的事情，我非常感谢那些提出这个想法、支持我的人，尤其是在 Drift 时，这成为我们当时所做的事情的一部分。

And it's been helpful for a couple of reasons.

出于几个原因，它很有帮助。

One is just networking and access.

一是网络和访问。

I probably wouldn't be here today if I hadn't done that and if a friend of a friend had read the thing, it's like it just creates so many more connections.

如果我没有这样做，我今天可能就不会在这里，如果朋友的朋友读了这篇文章，它就像它创造了更多的联系一样。

And so access to people and networking is one of the first benefits.

因此，与人和网络的接触是首要的好处之一。

Maggie Crowley: Also building a personal brand is really helpful if you want, one of the things that I always wanted to do with my career is try to make it so that I'm always employable.

玛吉·克劳利：如果你愿意的话，建立个人品牌也确实很有帮助，我在职业生涯中一直想做的事情之一就是努力做到这一点，以便我始终能够就业。

I just didn't want to, I'm an 08 grad not to put my age out there, and it was a hard time.

我只是不想，我是一名 08 届毕业生，不能把我的年龄放在那里，那是一段艰难的时光。

And so I've always had this in the back of my mind, you want to be able to have a solid career.

所以我一直牢记这一点，你希望能够拥有一份稳定的职业生涯。

And so I thought that investing in my personal brand would be a way to help me get access to roles.

所以我认为投资我的个人品牌将是帮助我获得职位的一种方式。

It helps in recruiting as well when I'm trying to hire people.

当我试图招聘人员时，它也有助于招聘。

Because a lot of my job now is bringing people in and because I've been vocal about how I like to work and who I am, a lot of people and they will send me a note and say, I want to work with you, or I want to work on a team like that.

因为我现在的很多工作都是带人进来，而且因为我一直直言不讳地表达我喜欢工作的方式和我是谁，所以很多人会给我发一张便条，说，我想和你一起工作，或者我想在这样的团队中工作。

Maggie Crowley: And that's huge because if my job is to hire people, then that's great and people can get a sense of who I am without needing to be on the phone with me.

玛吉·克劳利：这很重要，因为如果我的工作是雇用员工，那就太好了，人们无需通过电话就可以了解我是谁。

My favorite benefit outside of those things has been that it's helped me learn more from the work I've done than I otherwise would've been able to.

除了这些之外，我最喜欢的好处是它帮助我从我所做的工作中学到了比其他方式更多的东西。

Because in order to make content, you have to think through what you did, you have to summarize it, process it, make it interesting for people.

因为为了制作内容，你必须思考你所做的事情，你必须总结它，处理它，让它对人们来说有趣。

And then especially if it's in a podcast meeting, talk to somebody about it.

然后，尤其是在播客会议中，与某人谈论它。

And the process of doing that means that you're paying attention to what you're learning along the way.

这样做的过程意味着你要注意你一路上学到的东西。

And so often we don't do that because we're busy working, we have our lives, things are happening.

我们常常不这样做，因为我们忙于工作，我们有自己的生活，事情正在发生。

And that to me is, I think what's made me a better product person faster is because I spent the time to think about what I was doing in a way that I wouldn't have if I didn't have to write something down.

对我来说，我认为让我更快成为更好的产品人员的原因是我花时间思考我在做什么，如果我不需要写下一些东西，我就不会这样。

Lenny: Something that comes across in your content that you've somehow figured out is to avoided being cringy and very thirsty for followers.

莱尼：在你的内容中，你发现了一些东西，那就是避免表现得卑鄙和渴望追随者。

And I think when a lot of people here build a personal brand, it's like, I don't want to.

我认为当这里的很多人建立个人品牌时，我不想这样做。

Maggie Crowley: I know.

玛吉·克劳利：我知道。

It makes me ill even saying that, it's like too gross.

连我这么说都觉得恶心，太恶心了。

Lenny: I never thought of it or wanted to think of it that way.

莱尼：我从来没有这么想过，也不想这么想。

And I'm just curious what advice you'd give to people that want to go down this route without feeling, I guess one, is just feeling like they're being cringey, and two, avoiding content people be like, oh my God, I can't believe this stuff .

我只是好奇你会给那些想要走这条路而不感觉的人什么建议，我想一是感觉自己很尴尬，二是避免人们会说，天哪，我不敢相信这些东西。

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, the clickbait tweet thread situation.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，点击诱饵推文的情况。

I think the step one's going to be cringe.

我认为这一步会令人畏缩。

Your first 10, 20, however many posts are going to be bad.

你的前 10 个、20 个帖子，无论多少，都会很糟糕。

I would imagine if you went back and listened to your first episode, you would be cringing just because you've learned so much since then.

我想如果你回去听第一集，你会感到畏缩，因为从那以后你学到了很多东西。

Right?

正确的？

Lenny: Although randomly the first episode ever is the most popular episode.

莱尼：虽然随机第一集是最受欢迎的一集。

So, with , which I could see why it was so popular.

所以，有了 ，我就明白为什么它如此受欢迎了。

Maggie Crowley: So, it went really hot with your first guest.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，你的第一位客人非常热衷。

Maggie Crowley: So, yeah, first get over the fact that it's going to be cringe.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，是的，首先要克服这会让人感到畏缩的事实。

It's going to be cringe.

这将会令人畏缩。

Like anything, you just have to get started and it'll fade away eventually and you don't have to think about it.

就像任何事情一样，你只需要开始，它最终就会消失，你不需要考虑它。

Two B, this is such gross advice, but you have to be authentic.

两个B，这是一个非常粗鲁的建议，但你必须是真实的。

It has to be real.

它必须是真实的。

And I think what came through in the show that I did was those were my real questions that I was really working on.

我认为我所做的节目中所传达的内容是我真正正在研究的真正问题。

Maggie Crowley: So, we joked about how we would turn off the recording and then we would get the real story, but I would turn the recording off and I would say, okay, we talked about this thing.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，我们开玩笑说我们将如何关闭录音，然后我们会得到真实的故事，但我会关闭录音，我会说，好吧，我们讨论了这件事。

Here's actually happening in my job today, what would you do?

今天我的工作中确实发生了这种情况，你会怎么做？

And so those were real questions that I had, real processes that I was working on and real advice that I needed at that time.

所以这些是我当时遇到的真实问题、我正在研究的真实流程以及我当时需要的真实建议。

And I think that's why it was valuable is because I was actively a PM and the way that I'm still actively in product, that was always something that I wanted because it meant that the content had to be relevant for me and wasn't just for likes and share.

我认为这就是它有价值的原因，因为我是一名积极的产品经理，而且我仍然积极参与产品，这始终是我想要的东西，因为这意味着内容必须与我相关，而不仅仅是为了点赞和分享。

Lenny: I think there's some two really important points there that stood out to me.

莱尼：我认为有两点对我来说非常重要。

One is your stuff's going to be terrible if you don't actually have any background or experience in the things, you're just pretending.

一是如果你实际上没有任何背景或经验，你的东西就会很糟糕，你只是假装。

It's like you're acting like someone that knows about this thing, but you don't actually.

就好像你表现得好像知道这件事的人，但实际上你并不知道。

And so I think that's an incredibly important part of this is don't try to become an online creator person if you haven't done the thing, because people will see that you don't know what you're really talking about and you'll run out of stuff and it'll be like, okay, well I did it for two months and I have nothing more to say.

所以我认为这是一个非常重要的部分，如果你还没有做过这件事，就不要试图成为一名在线创作者，因为人们会发现你不知道你真正在说什么，你会用完东西，然后就会说，好吧，好吧，我已经做了两个月了，我没有什么可说的了。

Lenny: And then the other piece is there's a guest who shared this quote that has stuck with me from Einstein, which is something like, "Seek not to be successful but of value." And I find that that's a really good framing for sharing stuff is just share things that are interesting to you and useful and come at it from this is useful, not from, I'm trying to build a following.

莱尼：另一件事是有位嘉宾分享了爱因斯坦的这句话，这句话一直让我印象深刻，就像是“不要追求成功，而要追求价值”。我发现这是一个非常好的分享内容的框架，只是分享你感兴趣且有用的东西，并且是从有用的东西中得到的，而不是从我试图建立追随者的东西中得到的。

Because people can tell if that's the-

因为人们可以判断那是否是-

Maggie Crowley: Yeah, people can absolutely tell.

玛吉·克劳利：是的，人们绝对能看出来。

And the other thing is there's a little bit of too cool for school mixed in here and there are definitely people who will tell you your content is cringe or make fun of you or whatever because that's what they want to do.

另一件事是，这里混杂着对学校来说有点太酷的东西，肯定有人会告诉你你的内容令人畏缩或取笑你或其他什么，因为这就是他们想做的。

And I'm not even going to get into psychology of that, but people will do that.

我什至不打算深入探讨心理学，但人们会这样做。

And I've always been of the mind that the really interesting people out there, people who are unashamedly interested in stuff and who are like, yeah, I'm nerding out about this and I'm sharing it because I'm interested in it.

我一直认为，那里有真正有趣的人，他们对事物毫不掩饰地感兴趣，他们会说，是的，我对这个很感兴趣，我分享它是因为我对此感兴趣。

And for better for worse, I love working in product.

无论好坏，我喜欢从事产品工作。

I love the job.

我热爱这份工作。

Maggie Crowley: Even all the gross stuff you have to do, it's super interesting.

玛吉·克劳利：即使是你必须做的所有恶心的事情，它也非常有趣。

You meet really cool people, you get to ship stuff, you get to see the stuff get used by people and solve problems.

你会遇到非常酷的人，你可以运送东西，你可以看到这些东西被人们使用并解决问题。

It's a really cool job and I've always been interested in how to do it better and it doesn't matter to me that some people might think that's cringe because that's cool, but this is what I do all day long, so I'd like to get better at it.

这是一份非常酷的工作，我一直对如何做得更好感兴趣，有些人可能会觉得这很酷，这对我来说并不重要，因为这很酷，但这就是我整天做的事情，所以我想做得更好。

Lenny: I think that's such a big part of it.

莱尼：我认为这是其中很重要的一部分。

I didn't even mention that.

我什至没有提到这一点。

Just it needs to feel really authentic and clearly for you is just like, there's just stuff I want to share because it's really interesting to me.

只是它需要让你感觉非常真实和清晰，就像，我想分享一些东西，因为它对我来说真的很有趣。

Lenny: The way I actually started writing was exactly the two reasons you just shared.

莱尼：我实际上开始写作的方式正是你刚才分享的两个原因。

One is I wanted to learn the thing and so writing helped me figure things out.

一是我想学习这件事，所以写作帮助我弄清楚了事情。

And then two is I just thought it was interesting and I found it useful and I just assumed other people might find it useful.

第二个是我只是觉得它很有趣，我发现它很有用，而且我只是假设其他人可能会发现它有用。

So, I did also learn, and I wonder if you found this too, is that you think the things are not going to be that interesting or useful to people, so basic for you, but people find the most basic stuff so interesting.

所以，我也确实学到了，我想知道你是否也发现了这一点，就是你认为这些东西对人们来说不会那么有趣或有用，对你来说很基础，但人们发现最基本的东西很有趣。

Because there's always more to learn about how to roadmap, how to prioritize, how to hire, how to talk, to have difficult conversations, performance review.

因为总是有更多的东西需要学习，比如如何制定路线图、如何确定优先顺序、如何招聘、如何交谈、进行困难的对话、绩效评估。

Maggie Crowley: All of that is absolutely true.

玛吉·克劳利：所有这些都是绝对正确的。

And I think one of the first pieces of content that I was really happy with was I was working with somebody and they were making a PowerPoint presenter slides or whatever, and I just wrote out in my notebook like, okay, here's how I do that.

我认为我真正满意的第一个内容是我正在与某人合作，他们正在制作 PowerPoint 演示幻灯片或其他内容，我只是在笔记本上写下，好吧，这就是我的做法。

I start with an outline on paper and then I draw little boxes for the slides and I write out the headline of the slides.

我首先在纸上画出轮廓，然后为幻灯片画一些小方框，并写出幻灯片的标题。

And then once I have a tight outline and I have the literal text that will go across the top of each of those things, then I sketch out how I want the slides to go.

然后，一旦我有了一个紧凑的轮廓，并且有了将贯穿每一个内容顶部的文字文本，然后我就勾画出我希望幻灯片如何进行。

And then I go into Google Docs and I actually make the slide.

然后我进入谷歌文档并实际制作幻灯片。

Maggie Crowley: And it was like some silly little thing and this person sat there and said, holy, you just totally changed the way I did this and this took me 75% less time than it would've taken me otherwise.

玛吉·克劳利：这就像一件愚蠢的小事，这个人坐在那里说，天啊，你完全改变了我做这件事的方式，这比我原本要花的时间少了 75%。

And I was like, I may do this dumb drawing.

我当时想，我可以画这个愚蠢的画。

Why is this a big deal?

为什么这很重要？

And yeah, that's when I realized that the stuff that's easy for you might be a stuff that is most interesting because it's something that maybe you're really good at that you don't realize.

是的，就在那时我意识到，对你来说容易的东西可能是最有趣的东西，因为它可能是你真正擅长但你没有意识到的东西。

Lenny: I think people need to really internalize that point.

莱尼：我认为人们需要真正内化这一点。

If there's something that you're doing that you consistently find useful and works often, that is going to be really useful for someone to hear.

如果你正在做的某件事你一直觉得有用并且经常有效，那么这对于别人听到来说将会非常有用。

So, that could be a good place to start.

所以，这可能是一个很好的起点。

Maggie, we've gone through everything that I was hoping to get through and more, which is awesome.

玛吉，我们已经经历了我希望经历的一切，甚至更多，这太棒了。

Lenny: Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you want to share or touch on think might be useful to leave folks with?

莱尼：在我们进行非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或认为可能对大家有用的东西吗？

Maggie Crowley: My hope is always that people listen to stuff like this and realize that it's messier than you think you can fail a lot and still be successful and that they should have fun.

玛吉·克劳利：我始终希望人们听到这样的东西，并意识到它比你想象的更混乱，你可以失败很多，但仍然成功，他们应该玩得开心。

I think that gets missed in a lot of the product content is like, have fun, enjoy it.

我认为很多产品内容都被忽略了，比如，玩得开心，享受它。

People are weird, people do weird stuff and you build stuff for people, which it makes it all very entertaining.

人们很奇怪，人们做奇怪的事情，而你为人们创造东西，这使得这一切变得非常有趣。

So, I've always found a lot of joy in the job.

所以，我总是在工作中找到很多乐趣。

Lenny: And to your point of carrying the water as a PM where you're kind of doing all the things, it's like you can create that fun.

Lenny：作为一名产品经理，你负责挑水，所有的事情你都在做，就好像你可以创造那种乐趣。

You can make the team your own fun and change the culture, create the culture.

你可以让团队成为你自己的乐趣，改变文化，创造文化。

I find that so underappreciated for PM.

我发现总理的这一点被低估了。

Lenny: Okay, well with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好的，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Maggie, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：玛吉，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Maggie Crowley: First, most common one is probably the Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, the little tiny one, really great way to improve your speaking skills and your presentation skills and to get distracted executives to agree with the point you're making.

玛吉·克劳利：首先，最常见的一个可能是史蒂夫·乔布斯的演讲秘诀，这个小小的秘诀，确实是提高你的演讲技巧和演讲技巧以及让心烦意乱的高管同意你所提出的观点的好方法。

So, that's one.

所以，那就是一个。

Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke is the second one.

安妮·杜克 (Annie Duke) 的《赌注思考》是第二篇。

Coming back to the point about being able to make bets, I think that one's a really interesting one.

回到投注这一点，我认为这是一个非常有趣的事情。

And then bonus third one, this is more like a desk reference that I now have on my desk, the Scaling People book by Claire Hughes Johnson.

然后是第三本，这更像是我现在桌上的一本参考资料，克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊 (Claire Hughes Johnson) 写的《规模化人员》(Scaling People) 书。

I really enjoyed the way that one is working and it just sits on my desk and I reference it every once in a while, especially as manager.

我真的很喜欢它的工作方式，它就放在我的办公桌上，我偶尔会参考它，尤其是作为经理。

Lenny: I have it both under my laptop right where I'm sitting and then also way behind there and it's one of the most popular episodes I've done with Claire, so if folks haven't listened to that one.

莱尼：我把它放在笔记本电脑下面，就在我坐的地方，然后也放在后面，这是我和克莱尔一起制作的最受欢迎的剧集之一，所以如果人们还没有听过这一集的话。

Highly recommend.

强烈推荐。

She's incredible.

她太不可思议了。

Great choice.

很棒的选择。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Maggie Crowley: Okay, so my husband is in the industry, as we say here in LA, and so we watch a lot of good and bad shows in TV, but I think my favorite one that I've watched recently was Slow Horses.

玛吉·克劳利：好的，我的丈夫从事这个行业，正如我们在洛杉矶所说的那样，所以我们在电视上观看了很多好的和坏的节目，但我想我最近看的最喜欢的一个是《慢马》。

Gary Oldman is incredible.

加里·奥德曼真是不可思议。

Highly recommend.

强烈推荐。

Lenny: Wow, I haven't heard that one yet.

莱尼：哇，我还没听说过。

Good tip.

好提示。

What is a favorite interview question you really like to ask which I think you already gave away, but let's touch on it again.

您最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？我认为您已经放弃了，但让我们再讨论一下。

Maggie Crowley: I did.

玛吉·克劳利：我做到了。

Yeah, it is what is the worst product that you've ever shipped?

是的，您运送过的最糟糕的产品是什么？

I think the best answers are ones, and I don't even care if someone listens to this and then I do this in an interview, people immediately laugh a little bit.

我认为最好的答案是那些，我什至不在乎是否有人听到这个，然后我在采访中这样做，人们立即笑了一点。

They remember the horrible thing they did and then they share that horrible thing with you.

他们记得自己做过的可怕的事情，然后与你分享那件可怕的事情。

And it tells me you have some humor, you're humble and you can point out when you've made a mistake.

它告诉我你有幽默感，你很谦虚，当你犯了错误时你可以指出。

You've done enough to be able to confidently say, of course I've made a mistake.

你已经做了足够多的事情，可以自信地说，我当然犯了一个错误。

Because none of us are perfect.

因为我们都不是完美的。

And you know how to spot those mistakes and you can learn from them.

你知道如何发现这些错误，并可以从中学习。

And I've always found that those conversations are the most interesting.

我一直发现这些对话是最有趣的。

Lenny: What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品是什么？

Maggie Crowley: One because I've seen you on Twitter, you're a future fit guy.

玛吉·克劳利：一是因为我在推特上见过你，你是一个适合未来的人。

Lenny: I use it three times a week.

莱尼：我每周用它三次。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Maggie Crowley: Yes.

玛吉·克劳利：是的。

I was also a future fit person.

我也是一个适合未来的人。

I think it's great.

我认为这很棒。

It's a great product.

这是一个很棒的产品。

I'm now on Ladder Fit.

我现在正在参加阶梯健身。

Maggie Crowley: And personally, I love not being, I don't have to talk to the coach every day.

玛吉·克劳利：就我个人而言，我喜欢不存在，我不必每天与教练交谈。

I don't need the accountability, so that's not a thing that I needed as an ex athlete.

我不需要责任，所以这不是我作为一名前运动员所需要的。

So, for me, that didn't serve me and I like the anonymity of it and it comes with a totally unhinged group chat for your whole team.

所以，对我来说，这对我没有帮助，我喜欢它的匿名性，而且它为整个团队带来了完全精神错乱的群聊。

It's fantastic.

太棒了。

I'm really enjoying it.

我真的很享受。

Maggie Crowley: So, that's one more of a funny one.

玛吉·克劳利：所以，这又是一件有趣的事情。

And the second one, not to get real niche, but I think good products are products that are focused.

第二个，不是为了获得真正的利基市场，但我认为好的产品是专注的产品。

They do one thing incredibly well and they're not, to your point about side quest, there's no side quests.

他们在一件事上做得非常好，但就你关于支线任务的观点而言，他们并不是没有支线任务。

I'm a new mom.

我是一位新妈妈。

There's this app called Pump Log.

有一个名为 Pump Log 的应用程序。

I have never seen an execute so well on one problem.

我从未见过在一个问题上执行得如此出色的人。

There's not a single thing where I think, oh, I wish it did this.

我没有一件事认为，哦，我希望它能做到这一点。

It does it.

它做到了。

It's like I paid $14 for it.

就好像我花了 14 美元买的一样。

I've never paid for an app like that in my life.

我一生中从未为这样的应用程序付费过。

Lenny: Okay, I'm downloading it right after we finish.

莱尼：好的，我们完成后我就下载它。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you either repeat yourself, often like to share with folks, find useful, and just kind of living life?

您有最喜欢的人生格言吗？您会重复自己，经常与人分享，发现有用且充满活力的生活吗？

Maggie Crowley: I'm sure there's mottos' I could say that would be aspirational mottos', but the real one is if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well.

玛吉·克劳利：我确信有这样的座右铭，“我可以说这将是令人向往的座右铭”，但真正的座右铭是，如果值得做，就值得做好。

And again, from being in sports to going to school to being in product, in my opinion, if you're going to do something, do it to the best of your ability because that's what you do with your day.

再说一遍，从从事体育运动到上学再到从事产品工作，在我看来，如果你要做某件事，请尽你所能，因为这就是你一天中所做的事情。

You spend so much time working, you may as well be good at it or trying to get good at it.

你花了这么多时间工作，你可能会擅长或试图变得擅长。

And that's always how I've lived my life.

这就是我一直以来的生活方式。

Lenny: I so love that message.

莱尼：我非常喜欢这个信息。

I always think about that.

我一直在想这个。

Final question, you are an Olympic speed skater, which I don't think people would know necessarily.

最后一个问题，你是一名奥运会速滑运动员，我认为人们不一定知道这一点。

That's insane.

那太疯狂了。

My question is there some bad speed skating that would surprise people that would be like, what?

我的问题是，有些糟糕的速度滑冰会让人们感到惊讶，比如什么？

Maggie Crowley: Ooh, that is one I've never been asked before.

玛吉·克劳利：哦，这是我以前从未被问过的问题。

The whole experience, I've obviously learned a ton from it, and I think what might surprise people about being a small sport athlete is that you have to think in four or eight year chunks.

整个经历，我显然从中学到了很多东西，我认为作为一名小型体育运动员，人们可能会感到惊讶的是，你必须以四年或八年的时间段来思考。

And so it's one of those things where you grind for so long in a dark corner and then you get a chance to get the light to shine on you and you learn how to love the process.

因此，这是你在黑暗角落磨练了很长时间的事情之一，然后你有机会让光芒照耀你，你学会如何热爱这个过程。

Especially for speed skating, I was a long track speed skater, it's a 400-meter rink.

特别是速度滑冰，我是一个长道速滑运动员，这是一个400米的溜冰场。

Maggie Crowley: You just are always turning left and going in a circle.

玛吉·克劳利：你总是左转并绕圈。

There's not a lot going on.

没有太多事情发生。

It's just you and your thoughts and you just really, really learn how to get good at perfecting something over and over again, and you learn how to grind, you learn how to focus, and I think it's also cool you get to go superfast.

这只是你和你的想法，你真的真的学会了如何一遍又一遍地完善某件事，你学会了如何磨砺，你学会了如何集中注意力，我认为你能走得超快也很酷。

But yeah, I don't know if that would surprise people about speed skating, but I think just about being a small sport elite athlete, it's really about years and years and years of toiling and silence to get maybe one shot at something great.

但是，是的，我不知道这是否会让人们对速度滑冰感到惊讶，但我认为作为一名小型运动精英运动员，这实际上需要年复一年的辛劳和沉默，才能有机会获得伟大的成就。

Lenny: So, much of what you just said would apply 100% to product management and I love that.

Lenny：所以，你刚才所说的大部分内容都 100% 适用于产品管理，我喜欢这一点。

Maggie, you are awesome.

玛吉，你太棒了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask you any follow-up questions, and then two, how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系您并询问您任何后续问题，可以在哪里找到您？第二个问题，听众如何对您有用？

Maggie Crowley: You can find me on Twitter for sure.

玛吉·克劳利：你肯定可以在 Twitter 上找到我。

By LinkedIn, but just speaking of cringe, I just can't get into LinkedIn posting.

通过 LinkedIn，但只是说到畏缩，我就是无法进入 LinkedIn 发帖。

Lenny: LinkedIn's gotten better, I'd give it a shot.

Lenny：LinkedIn 已经变得更好了，我想尝试一下。

It's actually pretty interesting now, which sound weird to say.

现在确实很有趣，这听起来很奇怪。

Maggie Crowley: Thinking about it, I better go back to work in a couple of weeks and thinking about LinkedIn.

Maggie Crowley：想想看，我最好几周后回去工作，考虑一下 LinkedIn。

But yeah, Twitter for sure, LinkedIn for sure, and I've always tried to be helpful to other people, so I don't have an answer for how people can be helpful to me, my goal is really to share what I've been doing, the rooms that I get to be in, the access to the content and the people and the learning that I've had.

但是，是的，Twitter 肯定有，LinkedIn 肯定有，而且我一直试图帮助其他人，所以我不知道人们如何帮助我，我的目标实际上是分享我一直在做的事情、我进入的房间、对内容和人员的访问以及我所学到的知识。

So, hopefully I can find ways to keep sharing that.

所以，希望我能找到继续分享的方法。

Lenny: Maybe check out Toast and use Toast when they're at restaurants.

Lenny：也许可以看看 Toast，并在餐馆里使用 Toast。

Maggie Crowley: Oh yes, Plug, Toast.

玛吉·克劳利：哦，是的，插头，吐司。

Come work with us.

来和我们一起工作吧。

We're the best.

我们是最好的。

I get to work with John Cutler.

我开始和约翰·卡特勒一起工作。

It's phenomenal.

这是惊人的。

Lenny: Legendary, previous guest.

Lenny：传奇人物，之前的嘉宾。

Are there roles you're hiring for just for folks that are listening and just like, hey, maybe I should go do that.

您是否正在招聘一些角色，专门为那些正在倾听的人，就像，嘿，也许我应该这样做。

Maggie Crowley: There are always roles that are open.

玛吉·克劳利：总有一些角色是空缺的。

I don't know what the most open roles are right now, but yeah, check it out.

我不知道现在最开放的角色是什么，但是，是的，检查一下。

It's a great place.

这是一个很棒的地方。

Lenny: Maggie, thank you again so much for being here.

莱尼：玛吉，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Maggie Crowley: Thank you, Lenny.

玛吉·克劳利：谢谢你，莱尼。

It was awesome.

太棒了。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

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另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。