The art and science of pricing | Madhavan Ramanujam (Monetizing Innovation, Simon-Kucher)

Madhavan Ramanujam: The good founders need to be able to dominate both market share and wallet share.

Madhavan Ramanujam：优秀的创始人需要能够主导市场份额和钱包份额。

It is not a choice.

这不是一个选择。

You need to get better at both.

你需要在这两方面都变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like every company wants to be an AI company these days.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉现在每个公司都想成为一家人工智能公司。

How is AI pricing different?

人工智能定价有何不同？

Madhavan Ramanujam: The winners in AI will need to master monetization from day one.

Madhavan Ramanujam：人工智能领域的赢家需要从第一天起就掌握盈利能力。

If you're bringing a lot of value to the table and you start at training your customers to expect $20 a month and you anchored yourself on a low price point, you're in trouble.

如果你带来了很多价值，并且一开始就培训客户期望每月 20 美元，并且将自己固定在低价位上，那么你就有麻烦了。

20% of what you build drives 80% of the willingness to pay.

你所构建的 20% 会驱动 80% 的支付意愿。

But the irony is that that 20% is the easiest thing to build often.

但讽刺的是，这 20% 往往是最容易构建的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What would you say is the biggest lesson you want founders to take away?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为您希望创始人学到的最大教训是什么？

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you think about market share and wallet share, let's think about it as a two-by-two.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果您考虑市场份额和钱包份额，让我们将其视为二乘二。

The quadrant that you really want to be in is the outcome-based pricing model, the top-right quadrant where you have great autonomy and great attribution.

您真正想要进入的象限是基于结果的定价模型，在右上象限中您拥有很大的自主权和很大的归因权。

About 5% of companies are probably in a true outcome-based pricing model.

大约 5% 的公司可能采用真正基于结果的定价模型。

If you want to win in AI, figure out a way to get to that quadrant.

如果你想在人工智能领域获胜，就想办法到达那个象限。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you feel like the popular IDE startups, they're going to be in trouble down the road?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否觉得流行的 IDE 初创公司将来会遇到麻烦？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Some of them, yes, without naming names.

Madhavan Ramanujam：是的，其中一些人没有指名道姓。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Madhavan Ramanujam.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Madhavan Ramanujam。

Madhavan is the smartest person I know on pricing and monetization strategy.

Madhavan 是我认识的在定价和货币化策略方面最聪明的人。

As managing partner at Simon-Kucher, he's worked with over 250 companies, including 30 unicorns, to help them figure out how to price, package, and grow their products.

作为 Simon-Kucher 的执行合伙人，他与 250 多家公司（包括 30 家独角兽公司）合作，帮助他们弄清楚如何定价、包装和开发产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: He's also the author of the book on pricing called Monetizing Innovation.

Lenny Rachitsky：他也是《创新货币化》一书的作者。

And now he's back with a new book, a sequel, called Scaling Innovation, which teaches you how to architect your business for long-term profitable growth and also how to avoid the common traps that teams fall into that keep them from building real, durable, sustainable businesses.

现在，他带着一本新书《扩展创新》的续集回来了，这本书教你如何构建你的业务以实现长期盈利增长，以及如何避免团队陷入的常见陷阱，这些陷阱阻碍他们建立真正的、持久的、可持续的业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bill Gurley wrote the foreword.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：比尔·格利写了前言。

I had a chance to read an early copy.

我有机会阅读了早期版本。

I absolutely loved it.

我非常喜欢它。

It's a book that every founder needs to read.

这是一本每个创始人都需要阅读的书。

And in this episode, Madhavan shares many of the biggest lessons from the book, including how pricing strategy is very different for AI companies, why you need to get your pricing model right from the start in today's market, a very simple two-by-two to help you pick your pricing model, how to gain pricing power, a ton of tactical advice for negotiating more effectively, the most common traps founders fall into, and so much more.

在这一集中，Madhavan 分享了本书中的许多重要经验教训，包括人工智能公司的定价策略有何不同、为什么在当今市场上你需要从一开始就制定正确的定价模型、一个非常简单的二对二帮助你选择定价模型、如何获得定价权、大量用于更有效谈判的战术建议、创始人最常见的陷阱等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you order five copies of the book, Madhavan is offering a chance to win a free conversation with him, a signed copy of the book, an invite to the book launch, a t-shirt, and more.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您订购这本书的五本，Madhavan 将提供一个机会，赢得与他的免费对话、这本书的签名版、新书发布会邀请函、一件 T 恤等等。

Just send a copy of your purchase receipt to promo@49palmsvc.com.

只需将您的购买收据副本发送至 promo@49palmsvc.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: And some more good news, Madhavan is now more accessible.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一些好消息，现在可以更方便地访问 Madhavan。

He left Simon-Kucher.

他离开了西蒙顾和。

He's now investing full-time with his own fund.

他现在用自己的基金全职投资。

He focuses on early-stage AI companies.

他专注于早期人工智能公司。

If you want to work with them, check him out at 49palmsvc.com.

如果您想与他们合作，请访问 49palmsvc.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

With that, I bring you Madhavan Ramanujam.

接下来，我为您带来马达万·拉马努贾姆 (Madhavan Ramanujam)。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Enterpret.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterpret 为您带来。

Enterpret is a customer intelligence platform used by a leading CXN product orgs like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, Strava, Hinge and Linear.

Enterpret 是一个客户智能平台，被 Canva、Notion、Perplexity、Strava、Hinge 和 Linear 等领先的 CXN 产品组织使用。

To leverage the voice of the customer and build best-in-class products.

利用客户的声音并打造一流的产品。

Enterpret unifies all customer conversations in real-time, from Gong recordings to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads, and makes it available for your team for analysis and for action.

Enterpret 实时统一所有客户对话，从 Kong 录音到 Zendesk 票证再到 Twitter 线程，并可供您的团队进行分析和采取行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: What makes Enterpret unique is its ability to build and update a customer-specific knowledge graph that provides the most granular and accurate categorization of all customer feedback and connects that customer feedback to critical metrics like revenue and CSAT.

Lenny Rachitsky：Enterpret 的独特之处在于它能够构建和更新特定于客户的知识图，该知识图提供所有客户反馈的最精细和准确的分类，并将客户反馈与收入和 CSAT 等关键指标联系起来。

If modernizing your voice-of-customer program to a generational upgrade is a 2025 priority, like customer-centric industry leaders like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, and Linear, reach out to the team at enterpret.com/lenny.

如果将客户之声计划现代化至世代升级是 2025 年的首要任务，就像 Canva、Notion、Perplexity 和 Linear 等以客户为中心的行业领导者一样，请通过 enterpret.com/lenny 与团队联系。

That's E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T .com/lenny.

那是 E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T .com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是 DX 为您带来的。

If you're an engineering leader or on a platform team, at some point your CO will inevitably ask you for productivity metrics.

如果您是工程领导者或平台团队成员，在某些时候您的 CO 不可避免地会要求您提供生产力指标。

But measuring engineering organizations is hard, and we can all agree that simple metrics, like the number of PRs or commits, doesn't tell the full story.

但衡量工程组织很困难，我们都同意简单的指标（例如 PR 或提交的数量）并不能说明全部情况。

That's where DX comes in.

这就是 DX 发挥作用的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: DX is an engineering intelligence solution designed by leading researchers, including those behind the DORA and SPACE frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：DX 是由领先研究人员设计的工程智能解决方案，其中包括 DORA 和 SPACE 框架背后的研究人员。

It combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivity and the factors affecting it.

它将开发人员工具的定量数据与开发人员的定性反馈相结合，让您全面了解工程生产力及其影响因素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Learn why some of the world's most iconic companies, like Etsy, Dropbox, Twilio, Vercel, and Webflow rely on DX.

Lenny Rachitsky：了解为什么世界上一些最具标志性的公司（例如 Etsy、Dropbox、Twilio、Vercel 和 Webflow）依赖 DX。

Visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Madhavan, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Madhavan，非常感谢您来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Madhavan Ramanujam: It's exciting to be back, Lenny.

Madhavan Ramanujam：回来真是令人兴奋，Lenny。

Thanks so much for hosting me again.

非常感谢您再次招待我。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a very rare second visit to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常罕见的第二次访问播客。

You've got a new book coming out.

你有一本新书要出版了。

I've got a very early copy right here.

我这里有一份非常早期的副本。

If you're watching on YouTube, here's the copy you sent me.

如果您在 YouTube 上观看，这是您发送给我的副本。

It's like 200 pages.

好像有200页。

Did you print this out on your printer, by the way?

顺便问一下，你是用打印机打印出来的吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yes, I think I ran out of printer ink after that, I guess.

Madhavan Ramanujam：是的，我想在那之后我的打印机墨水就用完了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I appreciate the early copy.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很欣赏早期的版本。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

What we're going to be doing with this conversation is going through some of the biggest lessons that you shared in this book to give people a sense of many of the things that you share, many things you've learned since writing the first book.

我们在这次对话中要做的就是回顾您在本书中分享的一些最重要的教训，让人们了解您分享的许多事情，以及自写第一本书以来您学到的许多事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me start with this question.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我从这个问题开始。

Why'd you decide to write another book?

你为什么决定再写一本书？

And what is the difference between Scaling Innovation, which is the name of this book, and Monetizing Innovation, is the name of the first book?

这本书的名称“扩展创新”和第一本书的名称“货币化创新”有什么区别？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So Monetizing Innovation, we actually wrote it eight years ago.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以货币化创新，我们实际上是在八年前写的。

Time Flies.

时间过得真快。

And the core thesis of that book was, how do you build products that are not just cool but are products that people need, value, and are actually willing to pay for?

那本书的核心主题是，如何打造不仅很酷，而且是人们需要、重视并且真正愿意付费的产品？

And I think that took a life of its own.

我认为这已经结束了它自己的生命。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And over the years, we kept getting another question from entrepreneurs that, "Hey, we built a great product, we know there is willingness to pay, but how do we build a great business?

Madhavan Ramanujam：多年来，我们不断收到企业家提出的另一个问题：“嘿，我们打造了一款出色的产品，我们知道人们愿意付费，但我们如何打造出色的业务？

How do we scale this?" And the brutal truth is that even if you have a great product, you might actually not figure out a way to grow fast and grow profitably.

我们如何扩展这个规模？”残酷的事实是，即使你拥有出色的产品，你实际上也可能找不到快速增长和盈利增长的方法。

So we wrote Scaling Innovation in an effort to actually solve that puzzle.

因此，我们撰写了《扩展创新》，试图真正解决这个难题。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So you can think of this as a sequel to Monetizing Innovation.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以你可以将其视为《创新货币化》的续集。

And Monetizing Innovation.

以及将创新货币化。

Talked about how to build great products.

谈论如何打造出色的产品。

Scaling Innovation talks about how to build a great business.

扩展创新谈论如何建立伟大的企业。

And writing a book is...

而写书就是...

There needs to be a purpose for this.

这需要有一个目的。

For me, the reason for writing books is about giving a bit back based on what I know to founders.

对我来说，写书的原因是根据我对创始人的了解回馈一些。

And book writing is hard.

而且写书很难。

Writing a good book is even harder.

写一本好书更难。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And just like Monetizing Innovation, Scaling Innovation is not marketing fluff.

Madhavan Ramanujam：就像货币化创新一样，扩展创新并不是营销废话。

It actually has real actionable stuff packed in that you can go on Monday morning and start implementing.

它实际上包含了真正可操作的内容，您可以在周一早上开始实施。

And we wrote this book to give back a bit of what we know and to help companies scale and architect towards profitable growth.

我们写这本书是为了回馈一些我们所知道的知识，并帮助公司扩大规模并实现盈利增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love people like you that do the work for, I don't know, decades at this point, learn from real life experiences over and over and over, and then just share all this stuff with people.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢像你这样的人，我不知道，他们工作了几十年，一遍又一遍地从现实生活中学习经验，然后与人们分享所有这些东西。

This is the most...

这是最...

the highest ROI way to learn, is letting you do all this work to learn all these things and then you share all your answers with us.

投资回报率最高的学习方式是让您完成所有这些工作来学习所有这些内容，然后与我们分享您的所有答案。

So that's why I love these books.

这就是我喜欢这些书的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you had to boil down the thesis of this book into just a simple thought so that we can just start to plant this in founders's heads, what would that be?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你必须将这本书的主题归结为一个简单的想法，以便我们可以开始将其植入创始人的头脑中，那会是什么？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So if I have to boil down the core thesis of the book, it is basically that if you want to build an enduring business, you need to be able to architect towards profitable growth.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以，如果我必须总结这本书的核心论点，基本上就是，如果你想建立一个持久的企业，你需要能够实现盈利增长。

What that means is you need to be able to master two engines: market share and wallet share.

这意味着你需要能够掌握两个引擎：市场份额和钱包份额。

Madhavan Ramanujam: It sounds simple on the surface, but it's actually quite complex.

Madhavan Ramanujam：表面上听起来很简单，但实际上相当复杂。

Because if you unpack that, for gaining market share and wallet share, you need to be good at acquisition, monetization, and retention, as in get customers, make an initial money on them, but also make money on an ongoing basis and have your customers actually refer more customers.

因为如果你把它解开，为了获得市场份额和钱包份额，你需要擅长获取、货币化和保留，比如获取客户，从他们身上赚到初始钱，而且还要持续赚钱，让你的客户真正推荐更多客户。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Many companies, actually, what they do is they focus on a single engine strategy.

Madhavan Ramanujam：实际上，许多公司所做的就是专注于单一引擎战略。

So they focus on one of those two topics and pretty much exclude the other one.

因此，他们只关注这两个主题之一，而几乎排除另一个主题。

That leads to all kinds of situations.

这会导致各种情况。

You see companies saying, "I'll grow at all costs and postpone monetization." You see some who would say, "I'm going to monetize earlier on," but they might miss out on acquisition opportunities.

你会看到公司说：“我将不惜一切代价实现增长并推迟货币化。”你会看到有些人会说，“我要早点赚钱”，但他们可能会错过收购机会。

Or yet others who are so focused on a small set of loyal customer base that they're neither monetizing nor are they actually acquiring.

或者还有一些人过于专注于一小部分忠诚的客户群，以至于他们既没有货币化也没有真正获得客户。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So the good founders need to be able to dominate both market share and wallet share.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以优秀的创始人需要能够主导市场份额和钱包份额。

It is not a choice.

这不是一个选择。

You need to get better at both.

你需要在这两方面都变得更好。

But this does not mean that you're putting equal effort on market share and wallet share at all given points in time, but it means you're putting equal attention on both those topics and being thoughtful about the trade-offs and saying, "How can I actually look at these two topics together so that I'm architecting towards profitable growth?" That's the core thesis of the book.

但这并不意味着您在所有给定时间点都对市场份额和钱包份额投入同等的精力，而是意味着您对这两个主题给予同等的关注，并深思熟虑权衡，并说：“我如何才能真正将这两个主题放在一起考虑，以便我的架构朝着盈利增长的方向发展？”这是本书的核心论点。

Madhavan Ramanujam: We actually showcase nine strategies that actually allow companies to architect towards profitable growth.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我们实际上展示了九种战略，这些战略实际上使公司能够实现盈利增长。

And every chapter ends with how this particular strategy circumvents a single-engine problem and helps you focus on market share and wallet share at the same time.

每一章的结尾都会介绍这一特定策略如何规避单引擎问题，并帮助您同时关注市场份额和钱包份额。

And there's also CEO questions and leadership questions that people should reflect on when they architect towards profitable growth and are they on the right track?

人们在构建盈利增长目标时还应该反思首席执行官和领导力问题，他们是否走在正确的轨道上？

I mean, think about this ways.

我的意思是，想一想这个方法。

If you're flying a aircraft, you don't want to flight on one engine.

如果您驾驶飞机，您不会想使用一台发动机飞行。

Why do you actually want to do that for your business?

为什么你真的想为你的企业这样做？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So I imagine many founders or people thinking about starting a company are not feeling like they're in one bucket or another.

因此，我想许多创始人或考虑创办一家公司的人并不觉得自己处于这样或那样的境地。

Intuitively, you're not like, "Oh, Of course.

直觉上，你不会说，“哦，当然。

We're going to just focus on growth forever, and that's all that matters."

我们将永远专注于增长，这才是最重要的。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You had these kind of traps that founders fall into that you referenced a bit.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提到了一些创始人会陷入的陷阱。

Can you just talk again about just the common traps you find founders fall into that people may recognize like, "Shit, that's what I'm doing probably"?

你能否再谈谈你发现创始人陷入的常见陷阱，人们可能会意识到，“妈的，这可能就是我正在做的事情”？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So let's unpack the traps that are correlated to the archetypes.

Madhavan Ramanujam：那么让我们解开与原型相关的陷阱。

If you're a disruptor archetype, you might fall into one of two traps.

如果您是颠覆者原型，您可能会陷入两个陷阱之一。

The first one is you might land, but you might not expand.

第一个是你可能会落地，但你可能不会扩张。

As in your eagerness for acquiring, you might have actually given away a lot at less and you have given the farm away, but you don't have anything to expand to.

就像你渴望获得一样，你实际上可能已经以更少的代价放弃了很多，并且你已经放弃了农场，但你没有任何东西可以扩展。

That's the first trap you're likely to fall into.

这是你可能掉入的第一个陷阱。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second trap that you actually fall into is you start...

Madhavan Ramanujam：你真正陷入的第二个陷阱是你开始......

A market share that won, is different from a market share that is actually held.

赢得的市场份额与实际占据的市场份额不同。

If you're so acquisition focused, you're actually focused on getting more and more customers, but you're not spending enough time with customers that you actually got to keep them, upsell them, keep them happy, et cetera.

如果你如此专注于获取客户，那么你实际上专注于获得越来越多的客户，但你没有花足够的时间与客户相处，以至于你实际上必须留住他们，向他们追加销售，让他们满意，等等。

So you might fall into that trap.

所以你可能会掉进这个陷阱。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you're a moneymaker, you fall into one of two traps.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果你是一个赚钱者，你就会陷入两个陷阱之一。

The first one is you might nickel and dime your customers to death.

第一个是你可能会坑害你的客户。

Because you're focused on monetization, you might come up with a very differentiated pricing model, different levels, hidden fees, things to charge for many different things and come across as just trying to nickel and dime your customer.

因为你专注于货币化，所以你可能会想出一个非常差异化的定价模型、不同的水平、隐藏费用、对许多不同的东西收取的费用，并且给人留下的印象只是想从你的客户那里赚点小钱。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second trap that a moneymaker actually falls into is that you fall into the price premium paradox where you think that pricing high actually indicates value, but your price is so high that you actually start hurting your acquisition, so it just becomes irrelevant for most people.

Madhavan Ramanujam：赚钱者实际上陷入的第二个陷阱是，你陷入了价格溢价悖论，你认为高定价实际上表明了价值，但你的价格太高了，以至于你实际上开始损害你的收购，所以它对大多数人来说变得无关紧要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you're in the community builder, you actually fall into two common traps.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果您从事社区建设者的工作，您实际上会陷入两个常见的陷阱。

The first one is you're focused so much on the foundation that you actually miss the frontier, which is you're so focused on your loyal customer base that you forget to attract different types of customers and you're not acquiring.

第一个是你过于关注基础，以至于实际上错过了前沿，也就是说，你过于关注忠诚的客户群，以至于忘记了吸引不同类型的客户，而你却没有获得客户。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And the second trap that you fall into if you're a community builder is you train your customers to expect more for less.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果您是社区建设者，您会陷入的第二个陷阱是您训练您的客户以更少的成本获得更多的期望。

Because you're so eager to satisfy your loyal base, you start giving them more and more, and you're training your best customer base to expect more for less.

因为您非常渴望满足您的忠实客户群，所以您开始为他们提供越来越多的服务，并且您正在训练您最好的客户群以更少的成本获得更多的期望。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So these six traps are very common across these archetypes.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以这六个陷阱在这些原型中非常常见。

Being a profitable growth architect means that you're avoiding these traps.

成为一名盈利增长架构师意味着您要避免这些陷阱。

In other words, you're simultaneously being a disruptor, a moneymaker, and a community builder all at the same time.

换句话说，你同时是一个颠覆者、一个赚钱者和一个社区建设者。

And how do you actually have that archetype and the right strategies to actually go about your business?

您如何真正拥有这种原型和正确的策略来实际开展您的业务？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So this is what you want to not do.

所以这是你不想做的事情。

You mentioned you have nine strategies for how you actually want to approach pricing, monetization, scaling, monetization, and innovation.

您提到您有九种策略来了解您实际想要如何实现定价、货币化、扩展、货币化和创新。

Can you share a couple of these strategies, maybe two or three, maybe some of your favorites?

您能否分享其中一些策略，也许是两个或三个，也许是您最喜欢的一些？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Sure.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：当然。

So I will unpack a couple of strategies.

因此，我将提出一些策略。

Maybe the first one I would take is what we call as beautifully simple pricing.

也许我会采取的第一个是我们所说的“美丽简单的定价”。

So in your early days it is by far more important to have pricing that is really simple and it's not creating too much friction in the sales conversation.

因此，在您的早期阶段，制定非常简单的定价并且不会在销售对话中造成太多摩擦是非常重要的。

I mean, the asset test that you probably should go back on Monday morning and do is take some of your early prospects or customers and ask them to articulate the pricing strategy back to you, right?

我的意思是，您可能应该在周一早上回去进行资产测试，让您的一些早期潜在客户或客户向您阐明定价策略，对吧？

If they were to actually sell on your behalf, how would they describe the pricing strategy?

如果他们实际上代表您销售，他们会如何描述定价策略？

And if they cannot contextualize that in a simple manner and actually explain, you don't have a simple pricing strategy.

如果他们不能以简单的方式结合上下文并进行实际解释，那么您就没有简单的定价策略。

It's as simple as that.

就这么简单。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And having a simple pricing strategy also means that your pricing needs to be able to tell a value story, as in you need to contextualize your price based on the value that you actually bring to the table.

Madhavan Ramanujam：拥有一个简单的定价策略也意味着您的定价需要能够讲述一个价值故事，因为您需要根据您实际带来的价值来确定您的价格。

Madhavan Ramanujam: A great example here is Superhuman.

Madhavan Ramanujam：超人就是一个很好的例子。

When they started, they were actually competing with free email products and they were coming up with a premium email experience.

当他们开始时，他们实际上是在与免费电子邮件产品竞争，并且他们正在提供优质的电子邮件体验。

And how do you actually price that?

您实际上如何定价？

And I thought the team at Superhuman with Rahul and others did a pretty good job.

我认为 Superhuman 的团队与 Rahul 和其他人做得非常好。

They came up with a $30 price point per month, which was pretty simple.

他们提出了每月 30 美元的价格点，这非常简单。

But the way they kind of told the story was that you pay a dollar a day for actually getting four hours of productivity back in the week, and then suddenly the pricing doesn't look too off.

但他们讲述这个故事的方式是，你每天支付一美元，实际上可以在一周内获得四个小时的生产力，然后突然之间，定价看起来并不算太离谱。

I mean, it's like the price for a latte in a week to actually get four hours back.

我的意思是，这就像一周内喝一杯拿铁咖啡实际上可以节省四个小时的价格。

Why wouldn't I actually do that, right?

为什么我实际上不这样做，对吧？

Madhavan Ramanujam: And pricing contextualization and value story doesn't need to just apply for premium products.

Madhavan Ramanujam：定价情境化和价值故事并不需要只适用于优质产品。

If you take another example, like the Subway $5 footlong is a different way to say a story with pricing that, oh, for $5, you get a lot of value actually back.

如果你再举个例子，像地铁 5 美元长的地铁是一种不同的方式来讲述定价故事，哦，只要 5 美元，你实际上会得到很多价值。

So beautifully simple pricing really means coming up with a simple pricing strategy that your customers immediately get and your pricing is actually telling a value story and how do you actually get that.

如此精美简单的定价实际上意味着提出一个简单的定价策略，您的客户可以立即获得，而您的定价实际上讲述了一个价值故事，以及您如何真正获得它。

So in the book, we have a checklist of 10 different things that you actually need to look at to make sure that your pricing is beautifully simple.

因此，在本书中，我们列出了 10 个不同事项的清单，您实际上需要查看这些事项，以确保您的定价非常简单。

Lenny Rachitsky: As we go through these strategies, is your advice try all these things, like you should do as many of these strategies as you can, or is it maybe pick a few that work for you or just one is enough?

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们讨论这些策略时，您的建议是尝试所有这些事情，就像您应该尽可能多地执行这些策略一样，还是选择一些适合您的策略，或者只选择一个就足够了？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So there are nine strategies.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以有九种策略。

We have organized that into strategies that apply during your startup phase, like just when you get started, and strategies that apply to you in your scale-up phase.

我们已将其整理为适用于您的启动阶段（例如刚开始时）的策略，以及适用于您的扩展阶段的策略。

So there are four strategies that you need to do in your startup and five in the scale-up, so it's quite manageable.

因此，您在初创企业中需要执行四种策略，而在扩展中则需要执行五种策略，因此这是非常易于管理的。

I would argue that all four apply in the startup and all five actually apply in the scale-up phase, but it's not like you need to start focusing on nine things from day one.

我认为所有四个都适用于启动阶段，而所有五个实际上都适用于规模化阶段，但这并不像您需要从第一天开始关注九件事。

Lenny Rachitsky: So this first one was the startup phase?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以第一个阶段是启动阶段？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的。

The beautifully simple pricing is the startup.

美丽简单的定价就是启动。

Exactly.

确切地。

And so in the scale-up phase, I think one of the most important strategies is to master negotiations and really get better at acing negotiations, especially if you're in a B2B situation.

因此，在扩大规模阶段，我认为最重要的策略之一是掌握谈判并真正更好地进行谈判，尤其是在 B2B 情况下。

And how do you actually do that?

你实际上是如何做到这一点的？

Because you need to be able to talk about the value and contextualize your price based on those kind of conversations.

因为您需要能够谈论价值并根据此类对话来确定您的价格。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So to master negotiations, it comes down to actually three things.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，要掌握谈判，实际上可以归结为三件事。

Mastering gives and gets, being good at value selling, and third, having the right negotiation strategies.

掌握给予和索取，善于价值销售，第三，制定正确的谈判策略。

So let's unpack that each at a time.

因此，让我们一次将其拆开。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So giving and getting, why is that important?

Madhavan Ramanujam：那么给予和获取为什么那么重要？

Because in a negotiation, typically you're giving.

因为在谈判中，通常你是在给予。

I mean, you're giving concessions.

我的意思是，你在做出让步。

People are asking.

人们在问。

If you don't get anything back, you're basically indicating to the other person that they can keep beating you up and you need to keep giving.

如果你没有得到任何回报，你基本上是在向对方表明，他们可以继续殴打你，而你需要继续给予。

But if you're giving something but you ask for something in exchange, then you're basically bringing authenticity into the negotiation because it actually means something to you to give, so you're asking something back.

但如果你给予一些东西，但你要求一些东西作为交换，那么你基本上是在谈判中引入了真实性，因为这实际上对你来说意味着给予一些东西，所以你要求一些回报。

It actually makes the negotiation way more effective.

它实际上使谈判方式更加有效。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And in the book we actually talk about the top 10 gets in B2B and the top 10 gets in B2C.

Madhavan Ramanujam：在书中，我们实际上讨论了 B2B 领域的前 10 名和 B2C 领域的前 10 名。

One of my favorite gets in the B2B situation is what I call as conducting a value audit.

在 B2B 情况下，我最喜欢的做法之一就是进行价值审计。

So what this means is if you're giving a concession, ask for a value audit in exchange where every six months a team internally from your customers would be commissioned to actually conduct a value assessment of your products so that it becomes their business case and you co-create it with them saying how much value is actually produced.

因此，这意味着，如果您做出让步，则要求进行价值审计，作为交换，每六个月，您的客户内部团队将被委托对您的产品进行实际价值评估，以便它成为他们的业务案例，然后您与他们共同创建它，说明实际产生了多少价值。

And this is great because if they actually engage in that, that gives you tremendous pricing power for renegotiations because it is their business case, they're championed it internally, and you're pretty much making your products pretty sticky.

这很棒，因为如果他们真的参与其中，这会给你巨大的重新谈判定价能力，因为这是他们的商业案例，他们在内部支持它，并且你几乎可以让你的产品变得非常粘。

So it's a pretty harmless get, but it could be very powerful for future negotiations.

因此，这是一次相当无害的交易，但对未来的谈判可能非常有利。

So being good at-

所以擅长——

Madhavan Ramanujam: ...

马达万·拉马努贾姆：...

gives and gets is...

给予和得到是...

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Being good at gives and gets is really critical.

善于给予和索取确实至关重要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second thing in mastering negotiations is being good at value selling.

Madhavan Ramanujam：掌握谈判的第二件事是善于价值销售。

And for being good at value selling, you need to do three things.

为了擅长价值销售，你需要做三件事。

First, you need to be able to create the needs.

首先，您需要能够创造需求。

Second, you need to be able to create affirmation loops.

其次，您需要能够创建肯定循环。

And the third one is creating a good ROI model.

第三个是创建良好的投资回报率模型。

And let's talk about each of those.

让我们逐一讨论一下。

So creating needs is very important because many founders show up and try to understand what are the needs of the customers.

因此创造需求非常重要，因为许多创始人都会出现并试图了解客户的需求是什么。

That's one way to look at it.

这是看待它的一种方式。

But you need to be able to create needs rather than just discover them.

但你需要能够创造需求，而不仅仅是发现需求。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So for instance, if you're a marketing automation AI product and you save, let's say, three weeks of work that actually needs to be done to actually get stuff in a dashboard that can be analyzed by marketing managers, the way you create the need is ask about existing processes and say, "Okay, so just so I understand, all of this stuff actually takes you three weeks to put data together to actually have meaningful dashboards for your marketing managers to take action.

Madhavan Ramanujam：举例来说，如果您是一个营销自动化人工智能产品，并且您节省了三周的工作时间，实际上需要完成三周的工作才能在仪表板中实际获得可供营销经理分析的内容，那么您创建需求的方式就是询问现有流程并说：“好吧，我明白了，所有这些东西实际上需要您三周的时间才能将数据放在一起，从而真正为您的营销经理提供有意义的仪表板以采取行动。

What if that was available to you instantaneously?" Oh, you have now just created a need, right?

如果您可以立即使用该工具怎么办？”哦，你现在刚刚创造了一个需求，对吧？

So being in that mindset of creating a need as opposed to just discovering them.

因此，要抱着创造需求而不是仅仅发现需求的心态。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second thing is creating affirmation loops.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第二件事是创建肯定循环。

And this is really important.

这非常重要。

I've seen a lot of founders get into negotiations.

我见过很多创始人进行谈判。

They're so eager to talk about their products.

他们非常渴望谈论他们的产品。

They keep talking about the products without any affirmation from the other side.

他们一直在谈论产品，却没有得到对方的任何肯定。

You need to pause and create affirmation loops, things like, for instance, "Okay, so far, you've seen all of this.

你需要暂停并创建肯定循环，例如，“好吧，到目前为止，你已经看到了这一切。

How does this actually play out in your company?

这在你的公司实际上是如何发挥作用的？

Do you see it as valuable?

你认为它有价值吗？

What about this dashboard do you actually like?"

您真的喜欢这个仪表板吗？”

Madhavan Ramanujam: So when you ask these kind of questions and your customers are playing back the value that they actually see in your product, you're creating affirmation loops, which become tremendously useful when you start selling the product finally.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，当您提出此类问题并且您的客户正在回味他们在您的产品中实际看到的价值时，您正在创建肯定循环，当您最终开始销售产品时，这将变得非常有用。

Because if they've agreed that there's value that is being produced, then you also have a better commercial discussion.

因为如果他们同意正在产生价值，那么你们也可以进行更好的商业讨论。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And the third one is creating a good ROI model.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第三个是创建良好的投资回报率模型。

And I see a lot of founders work on a POC.

我看到很多创始人都致力于 POC。

And after the POC's over, they'll show up with an ROI model and try to defend a price.

POC 结束后，他们将展示 ROI 模型并尝试捍卫价格。

You've already lost the battle.

你已经输掉了这场战斗。

I mean, no one is going to believe an ROI model that you just cooked up.

我的意思是，没有人会相信你刚刚制定的投资回报率模型。

Everyone is going to challenge you on assumptions.

每个人都会挑战你的假设。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The right way to think about an ROI model is to actually co-create it with your customers from day one, which means agree and validate on the assumptions and the inputs.

Madhavan Ramanujam：思考 ROI 模型的正确方法是从第一天起就与客户实际共同创建它，这意味着同意并验证假设和输入。

So like, "Hey, how long does this process take today?

就像，“嘿，这个过程今天需要多长时间？

How many engineers are there?" So you create ask questions that are all inputs to an ROI model.

有多少工程师？”因此，您提出的问题都是 ROI 模型的输入。

And if you have done that process and the customer agrees on all the inputs, they're very unlikely to push back on the output of an ROI model.

如果您完成了该过程并且客户同意所有输入，他们就不太可能拒绝投资回报率模型的输出。

So a POC needs to be framed as the purpose of a POC is to build a business case, and we are going to co-create an ROI model with the customer as opposed to it being a tech and product functionality feature test and you show up with an ROI model.

因此，需要构建 POC，因为 POC 的目的是构建业务案例，我们将与客户共同创建 ROI 模型，而不是技术和产品功能特性测试，然后您会看到 ROI 模型。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And when you're building an ROI model, there are many buckets to focus on, but there are three that are very critical.

Madhavan Ramanujam：当您构建投资回报率模型时，有很多方面需要关注，但有三个方面非常关键。

The first one is, what are the incremental gains that you actually bring to the table based on KPIs and metrics that your customer is tracking?

第一个是，根据客户跟踪的 KPI 和指标，您实际带来的增量收益是多少？

So this could be things like incremental revenue, reduction in churn.

所以这可能是诸如增加收入、减少客户流失之类的事情。

These are the immediate, tangible, clear impact to the business line based on the products that you actually bring to the table.

这些是根据您实际提供的产品对业务线产生的直接、切实、明显的影响。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second bucket is cost savings.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第二个目标是节省成本。

Are you reducing headcount?

您要减少员工人数吗？

Are you reducing license costs?

您是否正在降低许可成本？

What are the tangible cost savings?

有哪些切实的成本节省？

Madhavan Ramanujam: And the third one, which is often overlooked, is opportunity cost.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第三个经常被忽视的因素是机会成本。

For instance, if you save 10 hours of time for a team, what do they actually do with that 10 hours?

例如，如果您为团队节省 10 小时的时间，他们实际上用这 10 小时做什么？

That can also be quantified.

这也是可以量化的。

So when you put all of these three things together, you start building a proper ROI model that you can actually use in your value selling to defend the right price.

因此，当您将所有这三件事放在一起时，您就开始构建适当的投资回报率模型，您可以在价值销售中实际使用该模型来捍卫正确的价格。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So we talked about three steps in mastering negotiations.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以我们讨论了掌握谈判的三个步骤。

The first one was gives and gets.

第一个是给予和获得。

The second one was getting better at value selling.

第二个是在价值销售方面做得更好。

The third one is actually getting better at even negotiations and what strategies would you actually use.

第三个实际上是在甚至谈判方面变得更好以及你实际会使用什么策略。

And there are a couple of strategies that we have found to be really productive.

我们发现有一些非常有效的策略。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The first one is to show up with options.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第一个是带着选项出现。

Many founders rush with one product and one price and say, "Okay, this is a hundred K product, and that's what we are trying to sell." Inevitably, what will happen is the immediate focus of the conversation will be on the price, and you're only talking about price.

许多创始人急于推出一种产品和一种价格，然后说：“好吧，这是一款 100K 的产品，这就是我们想要销售的产品。”不可避免地，谈话的直接焦点将集中在价格上，而你只谈论价格。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But if you have options on the table, let's say if you have a good, better, best, if you're a hundred K product, a 200K and a 300K option, then you're not just talking price, you're talking value.

Madhavan Ramanujam：但是如果你有选择，比如说你有一个好、更好、最好的产品，如果你有 100 K 的产品、200K 和 300K 的选择，那么你不仅仅是在谈论价格，你还在谈论价值。

Because if your customer is budget conscious, they'll say, "Hey, I like the hundred K price point, but I actually like the functionality in your 200K product." Then your immediate question is, what in the functionality do you actually like?

因为如果您的客户注重预算，他们会说：“嘿，我喜欢 100 K 的价格点，但实际上我喜欢你们 200K 产品的功能。”那么您直接的问题是，您真正喜欢哪些功能？

Why is that beneficial for you?

为什么这对你有利？

So you switch the conversation back to value as opposed to just talking about price.

因此，您将话题转回价值，而不是仅仅谈论价格。

And we have seen that with these kind of conversations, you're by far more better off to actually land in a much better place than just showcasing one product and one price.

我们已经看到，通过此类对话，您实际上可以更好地进入一个比仅仅展示一种产品和一种价格更好的地方。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And showcasing options doesn't need to be just different products.

Madhavan Ramanujam：展示选项并不需要只是不同的产品。

It could even be a pricing model choice.

它甚至可能是定价模型的选择。

And I'd probably give a simple hack that people can try on Monday morning.

我可能会提供一个简单的技巧，人们可以在周一早上尝试。

I was talking to this founder who said, "Hey, I think the budget is about 100K.

我和这位创始人交谈时，他说：“嘿，我认为预算约为 10 万。

That's what I believe from the key stakeholder, but my product really brings crazy value.

这是我从主要利益相关者那里得到的信念，但我的产品确实带来了疯狂的价值。

I could even charge, let's say, a 500K for this product, but I don't have the courage to actually go and ask for a 500K price because I kind of know a hundred K is the budget.

我什至可以为这个产品收取 50 万的价格，但我没有勇气真正去询问 50 万的价格，因为我知道 100 万是预算。

What should I do?" So for those kind of situations, actually show up with options in your pricing model.

我该怎么办？”因此，对于这种情况，请在定价模型中实际显示选项。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So we coached him to go in with a hundred K, plus 10% on any incremental value that you bring, or it's a 500K fixed.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以我们指导他投入 100 K，加上您带来的任何增量值的 10%，或者固定为 500K。

So now this is actually a great situation in negotiation.

所以现在这其实是一个谈判的大好局面。

Because if you're price sensitive, you're focused on the hundred K.

因为如果你对价格敏感，你就会关注百K。

It's a small fee to actually get started.

实际开始时只需支付少量费用。

But the conversation will gravitate towards, "What is that 10%?

但谈话会倾向于这样的问题：“那 10% 是多少？

How do you measure value?" That's a great conversation to have because now you're talking about, "How you add value?

你如何衡量价值？”这是一次很棒的对话，因为现在你正在谈论，“你如何增加价值？

Where's the value generation?

价值产生在哪里？

What portion would you take?"

你要吃哪一部分？”

Madhavan Ramanujam: And you see one of two situations.

Madhavan Ramanujam：您会看到两种情况之一。

Either the customer say, "That's great.

要么顾客说：“那太好了。

You're putting skin in the game.

你在游戏中投入了皮肤。

Let's go with a hundred K and 10%," or, 80% of the situations, you might actually want to avoid the outcome-based pricing as a buyer, but you're not really fixated on the 500K at that point.

让我们以 100 K 和 10%，或者 80% 的情况为例，作为买家，您可能实际上希望避免基于结果的定价，但此时您并不真正关注 500K。

It is the premium that you're actually paying for the certainty.

这是您为获得确定性而实际支付的溢价。

So no one is focusing on the 5K because of the hundred K option on the table, and you just put a 500K and got the courage to do that.

因此，没有人会因为桌上有一百 K 选项而专注于 5K，而您只需投入 500K，就有勇气这样做。

And in this specific situation, that 500K got negotiated to 400K, and they just 4X the deal compared to where they would be.

在这种特定情况下，50 万美元谈判变成了 40 万美元，与实际情况相比，他们的交易金额只是原来的 4 倍。

So having options on the table when you negotiate is critical.

因此，谈判时提供多种选择至关重要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And there's also some tactics that we showcase in the book, like anchoring is important.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我们在书中还展示了一些策略，例如锚定很重要。

If you start high, you'll also end up higher.

如果你起点高，你最终也会更高。

And also tapering concessions.

而且还逐渐减少让步。

How do you give concessions?

你如何给予让步？

I mean, the worst negotiators will start by giving a small concession and then give a bit more when someone asks like...

我的意思是，最糟糕的谈判者会先做出一个小小的让步，然后当有人提出这样的要求时再做出更多的让步……

You might give a 5% discount, and the procurement guy says, "That's not enough." "Okay, I'll give you 10% more." "Okay, that's not enough." "I'll give you 15." What are you indicating to the other person?

你可能会给予 5% 的折扣，采购人员会说：“这还不够。” “好吧，我再给你百分之十。” “好吧，这还不够。” “我给你15。”你向对方表明什么？

You're just basically indicating that I can keep beating you up and I can get more discounts.

你基本上只是在暗示我可以继续打败你，并且可以获得更多折扣。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The best negotiators who taper the concessions.

Madhavan Ramanujam：逐渐减少让步的最佳谈判者。

So they would say, "I can give you 15%." "Okay, I need more." "I'll give you five." "I need more." "I'll give you two." So you're automatically indicating to the other person that the negotiation's actually ending.

所以他们会说，“我可以给你 15%。” “好吧，我需要更多。” “我给你五个。” “我需要更多。” “我给你两个。”所以你会自动向对方表明谈判实际上已经结束。

So how do you taper concessions also become important.

因此，如何减少让步也变得很重要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So when you put all of these three things together, if you master your gives and gets, you get better at value selling, and you use the right negotiation strategy, you can extract full value from every deal.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，当你将这三件事放在一起时，如果你掌握了付出和得到，你就会更好地进行价值销售，并且使用正确的谈判策略，你可以从每笔交易中获取全部价值。

That's probably way more important when you're at the scale-up phase.

当您处于扩展阶段时，这可能更为重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such great advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是很好的建议。

I love that this is just one small chapter of your book.

我喜欢这只是你书中的一小章。

This could make or break your company.

这可能会成就或毁掉你的公司。

It's interesting that you have a whole thing on negotiation in a book about scaling innovation and growing your company.

有趣的是，你在一本关于扩大创新和发展公司的书中讲述了谈判的全部内容。

Is the assumption here that your pricing and monetization is so impacted by how well you negotiate because that changes your entire pricing structure and how much you're making?

这里的假设是，你的定价和货币化会受到你的谈判效果的影响，因为这会改变你的整个定价结构和你的收入吗？

Is that why you put so much effort into this part?

这就是你在这部分投入如此多精力的原因吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Exactly.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：没错。

I mean, in a B2B situation, you can set all the pricing you want, come up with great pricing models.

我的意思是，在 B2B 情况下，您可以设置您想要的所有定价，并提出出色的定价模型。

But at least even today, it's a human having a human conversation trying to negotiate.

但至少即使在今天，也是一个人在进行人际对话试图进行谈判。

So if you cannot contextualize what you put on the table, how do you negotiate around value, how do you contextualize your price, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

因此，如果你不能将你摆在桌面上的东西结合起来，你如何围绕价值进行谈判，你如何将你的价格结合起来，你就会在桌面上留下很多钱。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So to us, negotiations is yet another monetization topic where you're thinking about it as extracting full value from every deal.

Madhavan Ramanujam：对我们来说，谈判是另一个货币化主题，您可以将其视为从每笔交易中获取全部价值。

And this is not just negotiation tactics, like keep your boss at home and just negotiate and things like that.

这不仅仅是谈判策略，比如让老板待在家里进行谈判之类的。

This is actual negotiation strategies that are rooted on value selling, gives and gets, and focusing on extracting full value from every deal.

这是实际的谈判策略，植根于价值销售、给予和获取，并专注于从每笔交易中获取全部价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: So useful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常有用。

This idea of throwing out a third higher priced option, say 500K, it's so interesting.

放弃第三种更高价格的选择（比如 500K）的想法非常有趣。

Because usually the advice I hear is like, "Just throw out twice the number you used to...

因为通常我听到的建议是这样的：“扔掉你以前的两倍的数字......

" Just put it out there just in case, which is really scary to ask for like, "What about $50,000?" And this is like a much less scary way of doing that.

” 把它放在那里以防万一，这样的要求真的很可怕，“50,000 美元怎么样？”这就像一种不那么可怕的方法。

"Okay, but we also have this 500K option.

“好吧，但我们还有这个 500K 的选项。

Here's what you get." And then they may be like, "Oh, that's exactly what we want." And you're like, "Oh, wow.

这就是你得到的。”然后他们可能会说，“哦，这正是我们想要的。”你会说，“哦，哇。

It worked."

它起作用了。”

Madhavan Ramanujam: Exactly.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：没错。

It's a very simple hack to get your courage.

这是一个非常简单的技巧，可以让你鼓起勇气。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, this is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，这太棒了。

This is just like a golden nugget within golden nuggets of advice.

这就像金块建议中的金块一样。

Okay.

好的。

So you have nine strategies.

所以你有九种策略。

We've covered two.

我们已经介绍了两个。

Let's not get into them, but just what are a few more just so people know what else they might be able to learn?

我们先不讨论它们，但还有哪些是为了让人们知道他们还可以学到什么？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Sure.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：当然。

We talk about how to land and expand, as in how to design your best free product in such a way that you are landing, but also expanding.

我们讨论如何落地和扩展，例如如何以既落地又扩展的方式设计最好的免费产品。

We talk about things like how to have the right packaging strategy, how to stop churn before it happens, how to do price increases effectively.

我们讨论如何制定正确的包装策略、如何在客户流失发生之前阻止客户流失、如何有效地提高价格等问题。

Because at some point in your scale-up journey, you need to increase price, but how do you do that meaningful fashion?

因为在扩大规模的过程中的某个时刻，您需要提高价格，但如何才能做到这种有意义的时尚呢？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So we have various strategies that apply both for the startup and the scale-up phase.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，我们有多种策略适用于初创阶段和扩大规模阶段。

But in combination, all of those things help you articulate and architect towards profitable growth.

但综合起来，所有这些都可以帮助您阐明和构建盈利增长的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Let's talk about AI for a bit.

我们来谈谈人工智能吧。

A lot of your book is about how AI pricing is very different from other previous traditional pricing strategies.

您的书中有很多内容都是关于人工智能定价与之前的其他传统定价策略有何不同。

And it feels like every company wants to be an AI company these days, so I think this is going to apply to a lot of people.

现在感觉每个公司都想成为一家人工智能公司，所以我认为这适用于很多人。

How is AI pricing different?

人工智能定价有何不同？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah, AI pricing is very different from the previous vintage of companies.

Madhavan Ramanujam：是的，人工智能的定价与以前的公司有很大不同。

Why is that so?

为什么会这样呢？

Because AI founders need to tackle monetization from the very early days, like day one in their seed stage pre-seed kind of thing, which was not probably the focus for the previous SaaS companies.

因为人工智能创始人需要从一开始就解决货币化问题，比如种子阶段的第一天，种子前的事情，这可能不是以前的 SaaS 公司的重点。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

So because of two reasons.

所以因为两个原因。

Madhavan Ramanujam: One, for the first time there's cost dynamics to actually navigate.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第一，第一次出现了需要实际控制的成本动态。

So you need to think about monetization from day one.

因此，您需要从第一天起就考虑盈利问题。

But there's also a more critical reason, which is value capture.

但还有一个更关键的原因，那就是价值获取。

Because with AI products, you're actually bringing a lot of value to the table.

因为有了人工智能产品，你实际上可以带来很多价值。

And if you don't capture that from day one, then you're training your customers to expect more for less.

如果你没有从第一天起就抓住这一点，那么你就是在训练你的客户以更少的成本获得更多的回报。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So for instance, think about this.

Madhavan Ramanujam：举个例子，想一想这个。

If you're building a agentic AI product that taps into labor budgets, labor budgets are 10X compared to software budgets.

如果您正在构建利用劳动力预算的代理人工智能产品，那么劳动力预算是软件预算的 10 倍。

So if you use all the old playbooks, then you're under monetizing, again, from day one and training your customers to expect more for less.

因此，如果您使用所有旧的策略，那么您从第一天起就会再次陷入货币化，并培训您的客户以更少的成本获得更多的期望。

So how do you come up with foundational models that actually allow you to capture the value that you bring to the table?

那么，如何提出能够真正捕获您带来的价值的基础模型呢？

Madhavan Ramanujam: And why has this become critical?

Madhavan Ramanujam：为什么这变得至关重要？

Because with AI, finally, founders can really solve the attribution problem.

因为有了人工智能，创始人终于可以真正解决归因问题了。

In the previous vintages...

在之前的年份里...

For instance, if you take Slack, you can say that the productivity went up, efficiency happened, but you cannot measure it, monitor it, attribute it to Slack.

例如，如果你使用 Slack，你可以说生产力提高了，效率发生了，但你无法衡量它、监控它，也无法将其归因于 Slack。

Okay, that's probably why they were in a seed-based pricing model.

好吧，这可能就是他们采用基于种子的定价模式的原因。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But in today's situations, you see companies that say, "In a Fortune 100 company, I was able to improve throughput by 10%, reduce crap by 5%." And when you get into those kinds of situation where an AI is creating core value and it's attributable to the AI, you get a lot of pricing power.

Madhavan Ramanujam：但在今天的情况下，你会看到一些公司说：“在财富 100 强公司中，我能够将吞吐量提高 10%，将垃圾减少 5%。”当你遇到人工智能正在创造核心价值并且这归因于人工智能的情况时，你就会获得很大的定价权。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So the two questions that we commonly hear from AI founders is, "How do I set the right pricing model?" as in, "How do I charge?" which becomes way more important than how much you charge.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，我们经常从人工智能创始人那里听到的两个问题是：“如何设置正确的定价模型？”例如，“我如何收费？”这变得比你收取多少费用更重要。

Because the underlining business model has changed.

因为根本的商业模式已经改变。

We have moved from software being a pay for access to now you're paying for work delivered.

我们已经从软件按访问付费转变为现在按交付的工作付费。

So the monetization model's become key.

因此，盈利模式就成为关键。

That is the first question that people actually ask us.

这是人们实际问我们的第一个问题。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second one is, "How do I navigate POCs, commercial discussions early?" Because the buyer on the other side also wants to see the value before they engage in a commercial discussion." So those two topics become very critical, and we have showcased a lot of this in the book.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第二个问题是，“我如何尽早进行 POC、商业讨论？”因为另一方的买家也希望在进行商业讨论之前看到价值。”因此这两个主题变得非常关键，我们在书中展示了很多这方面的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Persona 为您带来，Persona 是一个适应性强的身份平台，可帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规性要求并建立信任。

While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny?

当你现在正在听这个时，你怎么知道你真的在听我说话，莱尼？

These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces, and identities.

如今，欺诈者比以往任何时候都更容易窃取 PII、面孔和身份。

That's where Persona comes in.

这就是角色发挥作用的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。

What sets Persona apart is its configurability.

Persona 的独特之处在于它的可配置性。

Every company has different needs depending on its industry, use cases, risk tolerance, and user demographics.

每家公司根据其行业、用例、风险承受能力和用户人口统计数据都有不同的需求。

That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risk.

这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，使您能够构建定制的收集和验证流程，从而最大限度地提高转化率，同时最大限度地降低风险。

Plus, Persona's orchestration tools automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation.

此外，Persona 的编排工具可自动执行您的身份流程，以便您能够对抗快速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。

Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business, Persona has a plan for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：无论您是初创公司还是大型企业，Persona 都有适合您的计划。

Learn more at withpersona.com/Lenny.

了解更多信息，请访问 withpersona.com/Lenny。

Again, that's with P-E-R-S-O-N-A .com/Lenny.

再说一遍，这是 P-E-R-S-O-N-A .com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about this POC piece because I think this is something a lot of people deal with.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们来谈谈这个 POC 部分，因为我认为这是很多人都在处理的事情。

And then I want to talk about this two-by-two that you have in the book.

然后我想谈谈书中的二乘二。

And I'll actually pull it up.

我真的会把它拉起来。

So let's talk about POCs first.

那么我们先来谈谈 POC。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So POCs, when we talk about POCs, many founders think about a POC as a proof of technical functionality, and is their product actually working in their customer environments.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以 POC，当我们谈论 POC 时，许多创始人将 POC 视为技术功能的证明，并且他们的产品是否在客户环境中实际运行。

And they set up the expectation that we are saying, "Hey, we are going to put the product, and we're going to see if it actually works." And they would probably say, "Should I charge for a POC versus not?" And we'll unpack that in a bit, should you or should you not.

他们设定了我们所说的期望，“嘿，我们将推出该产品，我们将看看它是否真的有效。”他们可能会说：“我应该对 POC 收费还是不收费？”我们稍后会解开这个问题，无论你是否应该。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And that's actually a completely wrong way of framing it.

Madhavan Ramanujam：这实际上是一种完全错误的构建方式。

The POC should be framed as the entire goal of the POC is to create a business case, period, full stop.

POC 的框架应该是 POC 的整个目标是创建一个业务案例，句号。

It is not to demonstrate product functionality fit within your customer environment's ability to integrate.

它并不是为了证明产品功能适合您的客户环境的集成能力。

All of that stuff is a consequence of the business case.

所有这些都是商业案例的结果。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So if you frame it this way is you can say, "Look, it is a 30-day pilot for co-creating an ROI model and building a business case along with their users.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，如果您这样设计，您可以说：“看，这是一个为期 30 天的试点，旨在与用户共同创建 ROI 模型并构建业务案例。

If we see value at the end of the 30 days based on the business case, we can get to commercial discussions." So that way you've actually not talked about your price.

如果我们在 30 天结束时根据业务案例看到价值，我们就可以进行商业讨论。”这样一来，您实际上就没有谈论您的价格。

You're only focused on co-creating a business case with the customer.

您只需专注于与客户共同创建业务案例。

And based on the business case, you can actually come up with a proper commercial agreement.

根据商业案例，您实际上可以制定适当的商业协议。

And if they see value, they're going to pay you for it.

如果他们看到价值，他们就会付钱给你。

So thinking about the POCs in that kind of manner.

所以以这种方式思考 POC。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And the question that I often get asked is, "Should I charge for a POC?" And the answer is yes, but smartly.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我经常被问到的问题是，“我应该对 POC 收费吗？”答案是肯定的，但是要聪明。

Let's talk about why it's important to charge.

我们来谈谈为什么充电很重要。

The reason you need to charge for a POC is you start isolating people who are just tire kickers versus serious buyers.

您需要对 POC 收费的原因是您开始将那些只是轮胎踢脚者和认真的买家隔离开来。

It becomes a lead qualification mechanism.

它成为一种领先资格机制。

If you didn't have that, you're going to attract all of these curious buyers who are just curious about AI.

如果你没有这个，你就会吸引所有这些对人工智能感兴趣的好奇买家。

They just want to see if it works or not.

他们只是想看看它是否有效。

They will say, "Yes, I'll engage with the POC." They will take 30, 60, 90 days with you.

他们会说：“是的，我会与 POC 合作。”他们将与您一起度过 30 天、60 天、90 天。

They will burn a lot of resources, never buy.

他们会消耗大量资源，从不购买。

You've just wasted your time.

你只是浪费了时间。

Time is of the essence.

时间至关重要。

So having a price tag to your POC actually indicates that there is seriousness on both sides, so you should charge.

因此，你的 POC 上有价格标签实际上表明双方都很认真，所以你应该收费。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But how do you actually charge for it?

Madhavan Ramanujam：但是你实际上是如何收费的呢？

You need to charge for it smartly.

你需要巧妙地收费。

What this means is that you need to make sure that your POC pricing is not a reflection of your actual commercial deal.

这意味着您需要确保您的 POC 定价不反映您的实际商业交易。

Because let's say if you just say it's a 10K POC for a 30-day pilot.

因为假设您只是说这是一个为期 30 天的试点的 10K POC。

If you don't talk about the fact that it is not the same as your commercial discussion, you have now set an anchor that, okay, it's 120K per year kind of deal if the POC works.

如果你不谈论它与你的商业讨论不一样的事实，那么你现在已经设定了一个锚点，好吧，如果 POC 有效的话，每年的交易额是 12 万美元。

So you have to be clear that the 10K is only for building a business case.

所以你必须清楚，10K 仅用于构建业务案例。

Commercial discussions will follow after that.

此后将进行商业讨论。

It is not an indication of the actual commercial discussion.

这并不代表实际的商业讨论。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But your buyer on the other side might still push you saying, "That's all great, but I need a price or a budget, otherwise I won't move forward with it." So there are two ways to actually deflect those kind of questions.

Madhavan Ramanujam：但另一边的买家可能仍然会催促你说：“这都很好，但我需要一个价格或预算，否则我不会继续推进。”因此，有两种方法可以真正转移此类问题。

The first way is contextualize the price on the value.

第一种方法是将价格与价值结合起来。

So you can say something like, if you're pushed for price, "Hey, for customers such as yours, we have been able to at least unlock 10 million in very similar situations.

因此，如果您被要求价格，您可以这样说：“嘿，对于像您这样的客户，我们已经能够在非常相似的情况下至少解锁 1000 万。

And our pricing is...

而我们的定价是...

One is to 10X when it comes to ROI."

就投资回报率而言，其中之一是 10 倍。”

Madhavan Ramanujam: So you basically said that you're a million dollars to actually get started, but you actually didn't say it.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以你基本上说你需要一百万美元才能真正开始，但你实际上没有说出来。

You just said, "It's a 10 million, and I'm taking one in 10 in exchange for it." So you've given the buyer an indication, but you've framed it in such a manner that actually is justifiable, right?

你就说，一千万，我拿十分之一换。所以你已经给了买家一个指示，但你是以一种实际上合理的方式来构建它的，对吧？

A one in 10X ROI.

投资回报率十分之一。

So that's one way to do it.

这是一种方法。

Madhavan Ramanujam: They might still say, "Yeah, that's good, but I need a budget." So then rather than just give them a budget saying, "It could be a 200K option," don't do that.

Madhavan Ramanujam：他们可能仍然会说，“是的，那很好，但我需要预算。”因此，不要只给他们一个预算，说“这可能是一个 20 万的选择”，不要这样做。

That's the worst thing you can actually say.

这是你实际上可以说的最糟糕的话。

Give them a range.

给他们一个范围。

You can say something like, "Look, the final pricing would be anywhere from 500K to a million.

你可以这样说：“看，最终定价从 50 万到 100 万不等。

And based on the business case that we would co-create with you, we can pick a point in that range that justifies the value that we bring to the table." So you're giving budgetary ranges, right?

根据我们与您共同创建的业务案例，我们可以在该范围内选择一个点来证明我们带来的价值是合理的。”所以您给出了预算范围，对吗？

So that's the other way to actually go about POCs.

这就是实际进行 POC 的另一种方式。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So how you navigate your early wins, who you choose is very critical when you're building companies at scale and fast in AI because that actually dictates the destiny for the rest of your future.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，当你在人工智能领域大规模、快速地创建公司时，如何驾驭早期胜利、选择谁非常关键，因为这实际上决定了你未来的命运。

And picking those early wins is very, very critical.

选择那些早期的胜利是非常非常关键的。

And having buyers who are serious, lead qualifying, having the right POC process, and thinking about POCs as, frankly, not just trying to see if your product actually works and delivers value, but it's a great chance to have a commercial test-and-learn experiment and have fun with it and try to see what you can bring to the table in terms of your value and what portion can you actually take.

拥有认真的买家，引导资格，拥有正确的 POC 流程，坦率地说，将 POC 视为不仅仅是想看看你的产品是否真正有效并提供价值，而且这是一个进行商业测试和学习实验的好机会，并从中获得乐趣，并尝试看看你可以带来什么价值以及你实际上可以拿走多少部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the core takeaway here is, for AI companies, you no longer can just grow and figure out monetization later.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的核心要点是，对于人工智能公司来说，你不再可以只是成长并稍后再找出货币化。

Your advice here is what you start with is what you're going to end up with, and it's very easy to under monetize because people aren't realizing that they're now helping with actual labor force savings versus just SaaS software that's making people a little bit more efficient.

你在这里的建议是你开始的就是你最终得到的，而且很容易货币化不足，因为人们没有意识到他们现在正在帮助实际节省劳动力，而不是仅仅让人们提高效率的 SaaS 软件。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah, absolutely.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的，绝对如此。

I mean, I strongly believe that the winners in AI will need to master monetization, and they need to master it from day one.

我的意思是，我坚信人工智能领域的赢家需要掌握货币化，而且他们需要从第一天起就掌握它。

And when we talk to early-stage founders, it is a topic that keeps many people up at night, but that's also why we wrote Scaling Innovation and other assets so that they can get some more courage to think about pricing correctly from day one.

当我们与早期创始人交谈时，这是一个让许多人彻夜难眠的话题，但这也是我们撰写《扩展创新》和其他资产的原因，以便他们能够从第一天起就有更多勇气考虑正确的定价。

And it's become very critical for AI companies to do that.

对于人工智能公司来说，做到这一点变得非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you feel like the popular IDE startups, I won't name names, do you think they've under monetized and they're going to be in trouble down the road?

Lenny Rachitsky：你觉得那些流行的 IDE 初创公司（我不会点名）你是否认为他们的货币化不足并且他们将来会遇到麻烦？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Some of them for sure have.

Madhavan Ramanujam：其中一些人肯定有。

I think they will probably run out of it because they might show a lot of, let's say, fast revenue growth, but is that enduring revenue?

我认为他们可能会耗尽它，因为他们可能会表现出很多，比如说，快速的收入增长，但这是持久的收入吗？

Are people actually going to stay?

人们真的会留下来吗？

And is there going to be churn?

会出现流失吗？

And so there are a lot of aspects to marketing profitable growth.

因此，营销利润增长涉及很多方面。

It's not just growing fast, but also growing profitably and having an enduring business.

它不仅增长迅速，而且盈利增长并拥有持久的业务。

So some of them, yes, without naming names.

是的，其中一些人没有指名道姓。

But yeah, I think that's why it's important to be thoughtful about market share and wallet share.

但是，是的，我认为这就是为什么考虑市场份额和钱包份额很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, those are different.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，那些是不同的。

I think what you're saying here is the retention may not work for some of these companies.

我认为你在这里所说的是，保留可能对其中一些公司不起作用。

But on the other hand, they're really cheap.

但另一方面，它们确实很便宜。

20 bucks a month to help your engineer be 10 times more productive potentially, is that too good a deal?

每月 20 美元可以帮助您的工程师将工作效率提高 10 倍，这是否太划算了？

Do you think they should have priced a lot higher?

你认为他们应该定价更高吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah, for sure.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的，当然。

I mean, if you're bringing a lot of value to the table and you started training your customers to expect $20 a month and you anchored yourself on a low price point, I think there are companies that have actually done that.

我的意思是，如果你带来了很多价值，并且你开始培训你的客户期望每月 20 美元，并且你将自己固定在较低的价格点上，我认为有些公司实际上已经做到了这一点。

And they try to undo it with having more sophisticated, let's say, products that are actually higher priced or much higher priced, et cetera.

他们试图通过更复杂的产品来弥补这一点，比如说，实际上价格更高或价格更高的产品等等。

That's one way to undo that situation.

这是扭转这种情况的一种方法。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So it's really a trade-off between getting more customers and making money at the same time.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以这实际上是获得更多客户和同时赚钱之间的权衡。

That's the whole point of the book, market share and wallet share, and how do you dominate both.

这就是这本书的重点：市场份额和钱包份额，以及如何主导这两者。

So if they're being thoughtful about both and have a vision to not just grow market share, but also have a clear strategy to land and expand and increase wallet share, those strategies might pan out for those types of companies.

因此，如果他们对这两个问题都深思熟虑，并且不仅有增加市场份额的愿景，而且有明确的战略来登陆、扩大和增加钱包份额，那么这些战略可能适合这些类型的公司。

If you just threw out a $20 product hoping to just accelerate your market share, you're in trouble.

如果您只是推出一款 20 美元的产品，希望只是为了提高您的市场份额，那么您就有麻烦了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

This is a great segue to this two-by-two, which goes much deeper into this.

这是对这个二乘二的一个很好的延续，它更深入地探讨了这一点。

So it's easy to be like, "Here's what you shouldn't do." Here's your advice on what to actually do.

所以很容易就会说：“这是你不应该做的事情。”以下是您实际应该做什么的建议。

So I'm going to pull up on my screen this two-by-two that you have in your book.

因此，我将在屏幕上显示您书中的两两图像。

So if you're watching YouTube, you'll be able to see it.

因此，如果您正在观看 YouTube，您就可以看到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: So talk about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么谈谈这个吧。

This is essentially how to figure out the best possible pricing model and where you have the most power.

这本质上就是如何找出最佳的定价模型以及你最有权力的地方。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So when you talk about AI companies and monetization models, we get asked this question.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以当你谈论人工智能公司和货币化模式时，我们会被问到这个问题。

"Should I be usage-based?

“我应该基于使用情况吗？

Should I be outcome?

我应该是结果吗？

Should I be a copilot mode?

我应该成为副驾驶模式吗？

Or how do I actually think about my pricing model?" So we came up with this framework, which is a relatively simple, straightforward framework, but very powerful.

或者我实际上如何考虑我的定价模型？”所以我们想出了这个框架，这是一个相对简单、直接的框架，但是非常强大。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So there are two axes here.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以这里有两个轴。

One is attribution, and the other one is autonomy.

一是归因，二是自主。

And when you have high attribution and high autonomy, that is when you have high pricing power, and we'll come back to that in a bit, right?

当你拥有高归因和高自主权时，那就是你拥有高定价能力的时候，我们稍后会回到这一点，对吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So let's take the first bottom-left quadrant.

Madhavan Ramanujam：那么让我们来看第一个左下象限。

That is the quadrant where your attribution is low and your autonomy is low.

那是你的归因低、自主权低的象限。

In that situation, the best pricing archetype that actually fits is it is actually a seed-based or a subscription model because there's not much to do about it because you're not being able to attribute a lot of value to what you bring, but you're in a copilot mode and you're not in an autonomous mode, so a seed-based pricing would actually make sense.

在这种情况下，真正适合的最佳定价原型是它实际上是基于种子的或订阅模型，因为没有太多可做的，因为你无法为你带来的东西赋予很多价值，但你处于副驾驶模式，而不是自主模式，所以基于种子的定价实际上是有意义的。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But if you're at that quadrant, the immediate thing to think about is, how do you actually build more attribution and move to the right so that you actually get more pricing power?

Madhavan Ramanujam：但如果你处于那个象限，首先要考虑的是，如何真正建立更多归因并向右移动，以便真正获得更多定价权？

So if you think about the bottom-right quadrant, those are companies that have actually done that.

因此，如果你考虑一下右下象限，那些公司实际上已经做到了这一点。

They can prove more attribution to what they actually bring to the table, but they are still not in a fully autonomous mode, as in there is still humans in the loop.

他们可以证明更多的归因于他们实际带来的东西，但他们仍然没有处于完全自主的模式，因为仍然有人类在循环中。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you take Cursor, for instance, it definitely improves productivity, can actually bring down the time to actually do code, the attribution is clear, but it's still in a copilot mode.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果以 Cursor 为例，它肯定会提高生产力，实际上可以减少实际编写代码的时间，归因很明确，但它仍然处于副驾驶模式。

In those kind of situations, a hybrid pricing model is the best option where you still have a seed-based model for the copilot kind of use case, but you also layer in a consumption model which actually says there are a certain number of AI credits or tokens that can layer in the usage aspects.

在这种情况下，混合定价模型是最好的选择，你仍然有一个基于种子的模型用于副驾驶类型的用例，但你也可以分层消费模型，该模型实际上表示有一定数量的人工智能积分或代币可以在使用方面分层。

So if you use more and more, then you're actually paying more on consumption.

因此，如果您使用得越来越多，那么您实际上在消费上付出了更多的代价。

So it's a hybrid model that actually works there.

所以这是一个实际可行的混合模型。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you look at the top-left quadrant, those are products that are very autonomous but are not strong on attribution.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果你看一下左上象限，就会发现这些产品非常自主，但归因能力不强。

So these tend to be mostly backend or infrastructure kind of products that are core critical to run businesses, can be autonomous, but they're not directly impacting the KPIs that businesses are tracking, and hence cannot prove attribution very effectively.

因此，这些往往主要是后端或基础设施类型的产品，对业务运营至关重要，可以是自主的，但它们不会直接影响企业跟踪的 KPI，因此无法非常有效地证明归因。

So in that situation, you need to be on a pay-for-what-you-consume and a usage-based model.

因此，在这种情况下，您需要采用按需付费和基于使用的模型。

A seed-based model would not make sense because it's autonomous.

基于种子的模型没有意义，因为它是自主的。

There's no human in the loop.

循环中没有人。

But that's why you're also in a usage-based model, saying the more you use it, the more you're actually charged.

但这就是为什么您也采用基于使用情况的模型，即您使用的次数越多，实际收取的费用就越多。

And usage becomes a proxy for the value that you bring to the table.

使用情况成为您带来的价值的代理。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The quadrant that you really want to be in is the golden quadrant, which is the top-right one.

Madhavan Ramanujam：您真正想要进入的象限是黄金象限，即右上角的象限。

That's the outcome-based pricing model where you have great autonomy and great attribution.

这就是基于结果的定价模型，您拥有很大的自主权和很大的归因权。

And here is where I think AI can be really magical.

我认为这就是人工智能真正神奇的地方。

So this means you're not only charging for work delivered, but you're charging for work delivered that was delivered by AI without no humans in the loop.

因此，这意味着您不仅要对交付的工作收费，还要对人工智能在没有人工参与的情况下交付的工作收费。

So that becomes more of an outcome-based model situation.

因此，这更像是一种基于结果的模型情况。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So a classic example here is Intercom for Fin.

Madhavan Ramanujam：一个典型的例子是 Fin Intercom。

What they actually do is they charge based on an AI resolution.

他们实际上所做的是根据人工智能分辨率进行收费。

So if an AI is able to resolve the ticket completely independently without a human in the loop, then they charge for it.

因此，如果人工智能能够在没有人类参与的情况下完全独立地解决问题，那么他们就会收费。

If a human intervention is needed, they don't charge for it.

如果需要人工干预，他们不会收费。

So they're more on an outcome-based model.

所以他们更多地采用基于结果的模型。

Or companies like Charge Flow would charge up to 25% on a charge bag that they're able to actually recover, because these are core savings that you actually bring to the table based on your AI.

或者像 Charge Flow 这样的公司会对他们能够实际回收的费用包收取高达 25% 的费用，因为这些是你根据人工智能实际带来的核心节省。

It is highly attributable, highly autonomous so you can start moving towards an outcome-based pricing model.

它具有高度可归因性、高度自主性，因此您可以开始转向基于结果的定价模型。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you look at the state of where AI is today, as of the day of recording this podcast, now, the most popular model is right now a hybrid pricing model.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果你看看人工智能今天的状况，截至录制这个播客之日，现在最流行的模型是混合定价模型。

So because this is also expected, because the previous SaaS playbook was usually on the seat-based model, but they've all now moved on to at least a hybrid to actually incorporate AI credits and usage, et cetera, about 5% of companies are probably in a true outcome-based pricing model as of today.

因为这也是预料之中的，因为之前的 SaaS 剧本通常采用基于席位的模型，但他们现在都已经转向至少一种混合型，以实际纳入人工智能积分和使用等，所以截至今天，大约 5% 的公司可能采用真正的基于结果的定价模型。

But those companies, some of the best ones are able to recover 25 to 50% of the value that they actually bring to the table.

但这些公司，其中一些最好的公司能够收回他们实际带来的价值的 25% 到 50%。

Madhavan Ramanujam: In the classic SaaS situation, we used to say if you can charge 10 to 20% of the value, that's actually great.

Madhavan Ramanujam：在经典的 SaaS 情况下，我们过去常常说，如果你能收取价值的 10% 到 20%，那实际上就很好。

But in AI, you can actually charge 25 to 50% because it is autonomous, you're doing it with the AI.

但在人工智能中，你实际上可以收取 25% 到 50% 的费用，因为它是自主的，你是用人工智能来做的。

There's no humans in the loop.

循环中没有人类。

You are creating incremental value to the business metrics.

您正在为业务指标创造增量价值。

You are producing hard-cost savings.

您正在节省硬成本。

There's opportunity costs.

有机会成本。

You can justify all of that.

你可以证明这一切都是合理的。

It's attributable.

这是可归因的。

So you can actually take 25 to 50% of what you bring to the table.

所以你实际上可以拿走你所带来的25%到50%。

Madhavan Ramanujam: In a lot of benchmarks and studies that actually show, and this is also my belief, that in the next three years that 5% number will move to 25%.

Madhavan Ramanujam：许多基准测试和研究实际上表明，这也是我的信念，在未来三年内，5% 的数字将上升至 25%。

So what this really means is if you want to win in AI, figure out a way to get to that quadrant because that's a magic quadrant.

所以这真正的意思是，如果你想在人工智能领域获胜，就想办法到达那个象限，因为那是一个神奇的象限。

If you can truly price based on outcomes, you've achieved and unlock tremendous value.

如果您能够真正根据结果定价，您就已经实现并释放了巨大的价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay.

好的。

I'm just going to pause again.

我要再次暂停。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

Madhavan, thank you so much for it.

马达万，非常感谢你。

I love, again, that you just spent years, decades studying this stuff, come here, tell us all the answers of what we should be doing.

我再次喜欢你花了几年、几十年的时间研究这些东西，来到这里，告诉我们我们应该做什么的所有答案。

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me ask you this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我问你这个问题。

By the way, for folks not watching on YouTube, the companies you have in the golden quadrant, outcome-based pricing, Sierra, Fin, and Chargeflow.

顺便说一句，对于那些没有在 YouTube 上观看的人来说，位于黄金象限的公司、基于结果的定价、Sierra、Fin 和 Chargeflow。

We've got the founder of Sierra and Fin coming on the podcast soon, so we'll talk about all this with those guys.

Sierra 和 Fin 的创始人很快就会出现在播客中，所以我们将与这些人讨论所有这些。

Lenny Rachitsky: So is the way to use this two-by-two figuring out your model?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么使用这个二乘二的方法来计算你的模型吗？

Is it like, "Okay, I'm like Cursor.

是不是像“好吧，我就像 Cursor。

I'm going to go in this quadrant," or is it, "How do I get to outcome-based no matter what?

我将进入这个象限，”或者是，“无论如何，我如何才能实现基于结果的目标？

That's where I need to be"?

那就是我需要去的地方”？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah, so that's a great question.

Madhavan Ramanujam：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

The first one is to actually figure out what is your right archetype based on where you are today.

第一个是根据你今天的处境真正找出你正确的原型是什么。

I think that is most important.

我认为这是最重要的。

If you try to rush into an outcome-based pricing model but cannot prove attribution, you will fail.

如果你试图仓促采用基于结果的定价模型但无法证明归因，你就会失败。

So it is really coming up with what is the right archetype based on what I'm doing today, but also use this two-by-two to say, "How do I paint a vision to actually get to outcome based?

因此，它实际上是根据我今天所做的事情提出什么是正确的原型，但也用这个两两来说，“我如何描绘一个愿景，以真正实现基于结果的愿景？

And can I get close to that?

我能接近那个吗？

Or can I be purely an outcome-based model?

或者我可以纯粹是一个基于结果的模型吗？

How do I evolve into that?"

我要怎样才能进化成这样？”

Madhavan Ramanujam: What that would mean is, how do I build functionality in the products to actually show attribution, how do I build more agentic workforces to take the human out of the loop and be more autonomous, and being thoughtful about your vision and strategy so that you will orient yourself towards more outcome-based pricing models.

Madhavan Ramanujam：这意味着，我如何在产品中构建功能以实际显示归因，如何建立更具代理性的员工队伍以将人带出循环并变得更加自主，并深思熟虑您的愿景和战略，以便您将自己定位于更加基于结果的定价模型。

So when you think about increasing attribution, that means, first of all, understanding what are the KPIs of your customers.

因此，当您考虑增加归因时，这意味着首先要了解客户的 KPI 是什么。

How do they track their business performance?

他们如何跟踪他们的业务绩效？

Can you impact it?

你能影响它吗？

Can you productize things in your product that showcase that you are actually affecting those KPIs in a positive manner?

您能否将产品中的内容产品化，以展示您实际上正在以积极的方式影响这些 KPI？

Can you build dashboards to show value attribution?

您可以构建仪表板来显示价值归因吗？

Can you do those value audits that we talked about on an ongoing basis to actually show that you're bringing a lot of value to the table and is attributable to you?

您能否持续进行我们讨论的那些价值审核，以实际表明您正在为桌面带来很多价值并且归功于您？

So how do you create these kind of attribution mechanisms become important and also autonomous based on building more agentic workforces that can actually be on an autonomous mold?

那么，如何在建立更多能够真正采用自主模式的代理劳动力的基础上，创建这种既重要又自主的归因机制呢？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So pick the right archetype and plan to get to as close as you can to the outcome-based pricing model.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，选择正确的原型并计划尽可能接近基于结果的定价模型。

That's how I would use the two-by-two.

这就是我使用二乘二的方式。

And you actually kind of see this happening with certain industries, right?

您实际上看到某些行业正在发生这种情况，对吗？

If you think about coding as a overall category...

如果您将编码视为一个整体类别......

Like back in the day with GitHub, everyone, they started with a seed-based model.

就像当年的 GitHub 一样，每个人都从基于种子的模型开始。

They've now moved to the hybrid-based pricing model with Cursors and everyone else, but the natural move would be more towards a outcome-based pricing model where a AI agent can probably code everything at the same time, debug it, and you're kind of almost hiring a AI developer or AI QA person.

他们现在已经转向使用 Cursors 和其他所有人的基于混合的定价模型，但自然的转变将更多地转向基于结果的定价模型，在这种模型中，人工智能代理可能可以同时对所有内容进行编码、调试，而你几乎是在雇用人工智能开发人员或人工智能 QA 人员。

And that actually becomes more closer to a outcome-based model because it's attributable and autonomous.

这实际上变得更接近基于结果的模型，因为它是可归因的和自主的。

So that is picking the right archetype and then figuring out your pathway is the key way to interpret this two-by-two.

因此，选择正确的原型，然后找出你的路径是解释这个二乘二的关键方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: This explains why everyone's pulling agents.

Lenny Rachitsky：这解释了为什么每个人都是拉动代理人。

That's where the money's at, what you're telling us here.

这就是钱的所在，你在这里告诉我们的。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的。

It's going to be the age of The Matrix.

这将是《黑客帝国》的时代。

Too many agents.

代理太多了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Agent Smiths everywhere.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：史密斯探员无处不在。

They didn't turn out too great.

结果并没有太好。

So what I'm hearing is if I were Canva...

所以我听到的是如果我是 Canva...

So Canva here in your model is bottom right.

所以 Canva 在你的模型中位于右下角。

They're in a hybrid pricing model.

他们采用混合定价模式。

They have a base fee and consumption fee.

他们有基本费和消费费。

What you would do if you were helping Canva is what can you build that creates more autonomy, an autonomous version of Canva?

如果你帮助 Canva，你会做什么，你可以构建什么来创造更多的自主权，即 Canva 的自主版本？

And it's not like you need to do this.

而且你不需要这样做。

It's just you have more pricing power if you figure something out there.

只是如果你弄清楚了一些事情，你就有了更大的定价权。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Exactly.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：没错。

And a good case for that is the Fin product from Intercom.

Intercom 的 Fin 产品就是一个很好的例子。

Because traditionally, all of those kind of companies used to price based on an agent basis.

因为传统上，所有这些类型的公司都过去根据代理定价。

How many customer service agents are actually using the product?

有多少客户服务代理实际使用该产品？

It used to be seed based, but they built out Fin, which is a completely AI resolution for those kind of support tickets.

它曾经是基于种子的，但他们构建了 Fin，这是针对此类支持票证的完全人工智能解决方案。

And then that actually enables them to move to the outcome-based pricing model quadrant.

这实际上使他们能够转向基于结果的定价模型象限。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So say you're an AI founder today.

假设您今天是一名人工智能创始人。

You're thinking about your pricing strategy, your monetization strategy long term.

你正在考虑你的定价策略，你的长期盈利策略。

Your advice is work with design partners, create these POCs where you work on this ROI model with them to ideally find some outcome-based pricing strategy.

您的建议是与设计合作伙伴合作，创建这些 POC，与他们一起研究投资回报率模型，以理想地找到一些基于结果的定价策略。

Is that a good way to summarize it?

这是一个很好的总结方式吗？

What would you add to that?

你会添加什么？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yes.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的。

I mean, at least be able to contextualize the business case.

我的意思是，至少能够将业务案例置于情境中。

Even if you're not moving to an outcome-based pricing model, be clear on the outcome that you're actually creating for your customers through that business case, which actually will enable you to charge a fair price in exchange for that outcome.

即使您不转向基于结果的定价模型，也要清楚您通过该业务案例实际为客户创建的结果，这实际上将使您能够收取公平的价格来换取该结果。

And if your customers agree with the business case, then you can actually take a portion of that.

如果您的客户同意该业务案例，那么您实际上可以从中获得一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Fin, actually, they're a new sponsor of the podcast, and I learned...

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，他们是播客的新赞助商，我了解到......

I didn't know this.

我不知道这个。

It costs 99 cents for every support ticket they solve .

他们解决的每张支持请求的费用为 99 美分。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Exactly.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：没错。

If it needs a human intervention, then they don't charge for it.

如果需要人工干预，那么他们不会收费。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And it's just like, what?

就像，什么？

That's such a simple story.

这是一个多么简单的故事。

Your agent costs 20 bucks.

你的代理费用是20美元。

This thing costs 99 cents

这东西要99美分

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的。

That is two chapters in one beautifully simple pricing and an outcome-based pricing model.

这是两个章节，一个非常简单的定价和一个基于结果的定价模型。

Lenny Rachitsky: And interestingly, they were the most hated pricing model initially.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，它们最初是最令人讨厌的定价模式。

I did a survey on Twitter ones, like, "What products do you pay the most for?" and it was always Intercom.

我在 Twitter 上做了一项调查，比如“你为哪些产品支付最多的钱？”而且总是对讲机。

And everyone hated their pricing, and they found a solution.

每个人都讨厌他们的定价，他们找到了解决方案。

Madhavan Ramanujam: I think they found a great solution.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我认为他们找到了一个很好的解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So is there anything else along these lines that you think companies, especially AI companies, should be thinking when they're thinking about pricing that you'd want to share before we move on to other stuff?

那么，您认为公司，尤其是人工智能公司，在考虑定价时应该考虑什么，在我们继续讨论其他问题之前，您想分享一下这些内容吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: I think we've covered most of the topics.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我认为我们已经涵盖了大部分主题。

Like we said, it's being thoughtful about POCs, choosing the right pricing archetype or the pricing models.

正如我们所说，它需要考虑 POC，选择正确的定价原型或定价模型。

Those things become very critical in the early stages.

这些事情在早期阶段变得非常关键。

But when you start scaling and, let's say, you become a multi-product company, then you need to start focusing on, "What kind of packaging strategy should I have?

但是，当您开始扩大规模，并且成为一家多产品公司时，您需要开始关注“我应该采用什么样的包装策略？

Is it a platform plus add-ons?

它是一个平台加附加组件吗？

Should I have versions of the products like good, better, best?

我应该有好、更好、最好之类的产品版本吗？

Should I tackle different use cases because now my AI can solve an insurance use case and a healthcare use case?

我是否应该处理不同的用例，因为现在我的人工智能可以解决保险用例和医疗保健用例？

Should I productize to different use cases?

我应该针对不同的用例进行产品化吗？

Is that my packaging strategy?

这是我的包装策略吗？

Or should I keep it completely modularized for people to pick and choose?"

或者我应该将其完全模块化以供人们挑选？”

Madhavan Ramanujam: So these kind of questions become more critical, and that's why the chapter on blowing up your packaging from your early days and coming up with your packaging strategy for your scale-up phase become very critical.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以这类问题变得更加关键，这就是为什么关于从早期开始炸毁包装并为放大阶段制定包装策略的章节变得非常重要。

So I think that's the next thing that founders would be hit with, as in when they build multiple products, they need to think about the whole packaging, cross-selling, up-selling motion.

所以我认为这是创始人接下来会遇到的问题，因为当他们构建多种产品时，他们需要考虑整个包装、交叉销售、追加销售动作。

Lenny Rachitsky: This touches on something I was about to ask, which is a change in your pricing strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到我想问的问题，即你们定价策略的改变。

How often is it a success to change the way you price?

改变定价方式的成功率有多少？

I know we're talking about you need to get it right from the beginning if you're an AI company.

我知道我们正在讨论的是，如果你是一家人工智能公司，你需要从一开始就把事情做好。

In your experience, how often...

根据您的经验，多久...

What does it take to successfully shift the way you price down the road if people are listening to this and are like, "Shit, we already have this pricing strategy"?

如果人们听到这个并说“糟糕，我们已经有了这个定价策略”，那么如何才能成功地改变你的定价方式呢？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Back in the day, we used to say that you should revisit your pricing strategy, overall pricing model, how much you're charging at least once in two years.

Madhavan Ramanujam：过去，我们曾经说过，您应该重新审视您的定价策略、整体定价模型，以及每两年至少一次收取的费用。

With AI, that's probably reduced in half because of the scale with which and the speed with which companies are built and competing.

有了人工智能，由于公司建立和竞争的规模和速度，这一数字可能会减少一半。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So I would say that it is an ongoing journey.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以我想说这是一个持续的旅程。

It is not like you just solve it in day one, fill it, and forget it.

这并不是说你只是在第一天解决它，填充它，然后忘记它。

You have to be thoughtful from day one, but also be ready to pivot, iterate, and you're going to learn along your journey.

你必须从第一天起就深思熟虑，但也要做好调整、迭代的准备，并且你将在你的旅程中不断学习。

So the whole point is to think about pricing as also a test-and-learn opportunity in your early days.

因此，重点是将定价视为早期的测试和学习机会。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And there are things that you would change more often, and there are things that you probably don't want to change too often.

Madhavan Ramanujam：有些事情你会更频繁地改变，有些事情你可能不想经常改变。

Things like pricing model, unless you really changed your attribution autonomy, there is no need to shift your pricing model.

像定价模型这样的事情，除非你真的改变了你的归因自主权，否则没有必要改变你的定价模型。

Stay within that archetype.

留在那个原型内。

Don't confuse things.

别把事情搞混了。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But there are things like price points.

Madhavan Ramanujam：但是还有价格点之类的问题。

Should I increase my price because it's been six months a year?

因为一年已经过去六个月了，我应该提高价格吗？

Yeah, you should.

是的，你应该。

Because in a year there's probably prices go up three to 5% for everything that you consume.

因为一年内你消费的所有东西的价格可能会上涨 3% 到 5%。

But how can you actually increase your prices and be thoughtful about it?

但如何才能真正提高价格并深思熟虑呢？

So that entire chapter on how to do price increases smartly become very important in the scale-up phase.

因此，关于如何巧妙地提高价格的整个章节在扩大规模阶段变得非常重要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: I think Warren Buffett summarized this really well.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我认为沃伦·巴菲特对此总结得非常好。

He said the true definition of a company is a pricing power.

他说，公司的真正定义是定价能力。

And if you have a prayer session for doing a 10% price increase, you have a terrible business.

如果你为价格上涨 10% 举行祈祷会，那么你的生意就会很糟糕。

So you have to be able to increase prices over a bit of time.

所以你必须能够在一段时间内提高价格。

But how do you do it strategically that does not affect too much churn, but you're also able to pass on the increase as a value exchange, those things become critical.

但是，如何从战略上做到这一点，既不会影响太多客户流失，又能够将增长作为价值交换来传递，这些事情变得至关重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Zooming out a little bit, something that I love about your book is you structured it around these axioms.

缩小一点，我喜欢你的书的一点是你围绕这些公理构建了它。

You have a bunch of these really clever axioms that get stuck in your head and help you think about pricing.

你有一堆非常聪明的公理，它们会深深地印在你的脑海里，帮助你思考定价。

Can you share some of your favorites, maybe two or three referred axioms from the book?

你能分享一些你最喜欢的，也许是书中提到的两三个公理吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: You talked about Sierra being in your park founders.

Madhavan Ramanujam：您谈到了塞拉利昂是您的公园创始人之一。

I don't know if that's Clay, but here's a shout-out for Clay.

我不知道那是不是克莱，但这里是对克莱的大声喊叫。

So Clay actually read the entire book and gave me feedback, Scaling Innovation, the similar copy that he actually had.

所以克莱实际上读了整本书并向我提供了反馈，《扩展创新》，这是他实际拥有的类似副本。

I called it Scaling Innovation Axioms throughout the book.

我在整本书中将其称为“扩展创新公理”。

And the whole point of the axioms was that at the end of the day, if you can just take all the axioms, put it in a printout next to your desk is the summary of the book.

这些公理的全部要点是，在一天结束时，如果你能把所有的公理都拿出来，把它打印出来放在你桌子旁边，那就是这本书的摘要。

And it's like PT statements that you'll just remember what to do.

这就像 PT 语句一样，你只会记住要做什么。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So he came up with this idea that, "Hey, rather than calling them just generic scaling innovation axioms, you need to brand each and every axiom." And I thought that was a brilliant idea.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以他提出了这个想法：“嘿，你需要给每一个公理打上品牌，而不是仅仅称它们为通用的规模创新公理。”我认为这是一个绝妙的主意。

So I went about coming up with a unique...

所以我开始想出一个独特的...

He even contributed to some of the names.

他甚至还为其中一些名字做出了贡献。

We came up with some unique names for each axiom.

我们为每个公理想出了一些独特的名称。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And here's the other fun fact.

Madhavan Ramanujam：这是另一个有趣的事实。

Probably I'm geeking out too much.

可能是我太迷恋了。

But when I counted the number of axioms, there were 42 axioms.

但当我数一下公理数量时，有42条公理。

And I didn't try to make this up.

我并没有试图弥补这一点。

And if you're a Hitchhiker's fan, then you know that's the answer to everything.

如果您是《搭便车》的粉丝，那么您就会知道这就是一切的答案。

Madhavan Ramanujam: But jokes apart, let me unpack a few axioms.

Madhavan Ramanujam：不过，除了开玩笑之外，让我来解开一些公理。

One of my first favorite axioms, what I call is the 20-80 axiom.

我最喜欢的公理之一，我称之为 20-80 公理。

Especially in tech companies, 20% of what you build drives 80% of the willingness to pay.

尤其是在科技公司，你所构建的 20% 的产品会驱动 80% 的支付意愿。

But the irony is that the 20% is the easiest thing to build often.

但讽刺的是，20% 往往是最容易构建的。

So what founders do is they take this 20%, build it, put it out in the market almost for free, and then they're chasing their tails to build 80% stuff that's only driving 20% willingness to pay.

因此，创始人所做的就是拿这 20% 进行构建，几乎免费地将其投放到市场，然后他们追逐自己的尾巴构建 80% 的东西，而这些东西只能推动 20% 的人愿意付费。

So if you have not been thoughtful about that, you've given the farm away unintentionally.

所以，如果你没有考虑到这一点，你就无意中放弃了农场。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So truly understanding what drives willingness to pay in your product is critical.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，真正了解是什么推动了您的产品的支付意愿至关重要。

And I think people call it the MVP.

我认为人们称之为 MVP。

I think we should change the definition of MVP.

我认为我们应该改变 MVP 的定义。

It shouldn't be minimum viable product, it should be the most valuable product.

它不应该是最低可行的产品，而应该是最有价值的产品。

And be thoughtful about what are you actually giving out as your early products I think is key.

并考虑一下你实际上提供了什么，因为我认为你的早期产品是关键。

That's the 20-80 axiom.

这就是 20-80 公理。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Probably my second one is the price paralysis axioms.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我的第二个原则可能是价格瘫痪公理。

So what that means is your reluctance to do a price increase is often internal and emotional and it's not external and logical.

因此，这意味着您不愿意涨价通常是出于内心和情感，而不是外在和逻辑。

This goes back to the same prayer session to actually do a price increase.

这又回到了同一个祈祷会，以实际提高价格。

If you're holding hands, you have a terrible business.

如果你们手牵着手，那你们的生意就很糟糕了。

So it's mostly internal and emotional, and how do you be thoughtful about price increases become important.

因此，这主要是内部和情感上的，如何考虑价格上涨变得很重要。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Probably my third favorite one is stopping churn before it happens, so stopping churn axiom.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我最喜欢的第三个可能是在流失发生之前停止流失，因此停止流失公理。

So to stop churn, you need to attract customers who won't leave.

因此，为了阻止客户流失，您需要吸引那些不会离开的客户。

That sounds counterintuitive, but that's the best way to actually stop churn.

这听起来有悖常理，但这是真正阻止客户流失的最佳方法。

What does this actually mean?

这实际上意味着什么？

Most companies will try to stop churn when someone actually says, "I want to go." It is too late, and you're being reactive.

当有人真正说“我想走”时，大多数公司都会试图阻止客户流失。已经太晚了，而且你正在做出反应。

At the most, you'll throw some offers.

最多，你会抛出一些报价。

They will stay for another six months, and they will leave.

他们将再呆六个月，然后他们就会离开。

They've already made that determination.

他们已经做出了这个决定。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The way to stop churn is to start acquiring customers who won't leave.

Madhavan Ramanujam：阻止客户流失的方法是开始吸引那些不会离开的客户。

And that is the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

So if you look back at your data and say, "Who are the types of customers who actually tend to stay longer?

因此，如果您回顾一下数据并说：“哪些类型的客户实际上倾向于停留更长时间？

What are their characteristics?

他们有什么特点？

How can I focus my acquisition dollars in getting more of those?" then you stop churn before it happens.

我如何才能集中收购资金来获得更多此类产品？”然后你就可以在流失发生之前停止流失。

And that's the key.

这就是关键。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。

I'm surprised you didn't say what was my favorite, which is...

我很惊讶你没有说出我最喜欢什么，那就是……

I think it's like, "If you land, make sure to expand."

我认为这就像“如果你落地了，一定要扩张。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That one really stuck with me.

Lenny Rachitsky：那一个真的让我印象深刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe talk about that one.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许可以谈谈这个。

Yeah.

是的。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Sure.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：当然。

I mean, so if you land, you need to also make sure you're expanding, in the sense that if you give the farm away in your entry-level product, you don't have much to actually monetize later.

我的意思是，所以如果你登陆，你还需要确保你正在扩张，从某种意义上说，如果你在入门级产品中放弃了农场，那么你以后就没有太多可以实际货币化的东西。

So being thoughtful about what is the fence between your land product.

因此，请考虑一下您的土地产品之间的界限是什么。

Is it a free experience?

是免费体验吗？

What is the getting?

得到什么？

And the getting is typically based on are you getting based on features?

获取通常基于您是否基于功能获取？

Are you also getting on usage?

你也在使用吗？

And how do you be thoughtful about that?

你对此有何看法？

So you leave stuff for the expansion.

所以你留下一些东西来扩展。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So zooming out even further, to kind of wrap up, what would you say is the biggest lesson you want founders to take away that they think they understand but they probably don't?

因此，进一步缩小范围，总结一下，您认为您希望创始人学到的最重要的教训是什么，他们认为自己理解，但他们可能不理解？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Yeah, I think this comes back to what you started with.

Madhavan Ramanujam：是的，我认为这又回到了你开始的地方。

I think intuitively people get it that they need to think about market share and wallet share if they're growing.

我认为人们直觉地认为，如果他们在增长，他们需要考虑市场份额和钱包份额。

And even if you ask them, they'll say like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about wallet share," but have they really thought about it equally and paid equal attention?

即使你问他们，他们也会说，“是的，是的，我正在考虑钱包份额”，但他们真的平等地考虑过这个问题并给予同等的关注吗？

Have they postponed one of them?

他们推迟其中一项了吗？

Are they operating in a single-engine strategy consciously or subconsciously?

他们是有意还是无意地采用单引擎策略？

I think that's the key takeaway I have.

我认为这是我的关键收获。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So the contrarian take is not to put equal effort on both the engines at the same time.

Madhavan Ramanujam：因此，逆向的做法是不要同时在两个引擎上投入同等的精力。

In certain stages of your company, you might need to be more market share dominating.

在公司的某些阶段，您可能需要占据更多的市场份额。

In certain stages you might need to be wallet share dominating.

在某些阶段，您可能需要占据钱包份额的主导地位。

It's not equal effort, but it's equal attention and really developing that mindset of being a true profitable growth architect.

这不是同等的努力，而是同等的关注，并真正培养成为真正盈利增长架构师的心态。

And that is the main takeaway that I have for people.

这就是我对人们的主要收获。

And if you are not in that mindset already, there's a book for you.

如果您还没有这种心态，那么有一本书适合您。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll point them to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我会向他们指出这一点。

So just so folks know what to do when they're like, "Okay, I need to focus on wallet share more," is the main focus figure out a pricing model that aligns well with pricing power, what's in the bucket of work to do to invest more in wallet-share thinking?

因此，为了让人们知道当他们说“好吧，我需要更多地关注钱包份额”时该怎么做，主要焦点是找出与定价能力很好地结合的定价模型，需要做哪些工作来更多地投资于钱包份额思维？

Madhavan Ramanujam: So it's actually all of those.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以实际上就是所有这些。

Market share, wallet share, acquisition, monetization, retention are all kind of correlated.

市场份额、钱包份额、收购、货币化、保留都是相关的。

You can't think about them in isolation.

你不能孤立地思考它们。

So I wouldn't say only for wallet share what do you need to do.

所以我不会只说对于钱包共享你需要做什么。

If you want to grow on both the market share and wallet share...

如果您想同时增加市场份额和钱包份额......

Let's say, for instance, you need to have the right land-and-expand strategy.

举例来说，您需要制定正确的土地和扩张策略。

The land helps you with acquisition.

土地可以帮助您收购。

The expansion helps you with wallet share.

该扩展可以帮助您共享钱包。

Madhavan Ramanujam: If you have a pricing model, then you need to have a pricing model that lets you acquire faster because it's intuitive, but it should also help you recover value, which is like your monetization.

Madhavan Ramanujam：如果你有一个定价模型，那么你需要有一个可以让你更快获取的定价模型，因为它很直观，但它也应该帮助你恢复价值，就像你的货币化一样。

And if people understand your pricing model, they're actually going to stay.

如果人们了解你的定价模式，他们实际上就会留下来。

So it's all sort of goes hand in hand.

所以这一切都是齐头并进的。

So I wouldn't isolate thinking one way or the other.

所以我不会孤立地以一种或另一种方式思考。

That's why the nine strategies actually are very powerful.

这就是为什么这九种策略实际上非常强大。

Because if you follow those strategies, you are not going to fall into the single-engine strap.

因为如果你遵循这些策略，你就不会陷入单引擎困境。

These are tried and tested strategies of how to build businesses in such a way that you're being thoughtful and paying equal attention to both market share and wallet share.

这些都是经过考验的策略，说明如何以深思熟虑并同等重视市场份额和钱包份额的方式建立业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

That is a very reasonable answer.

这是一个非常合理的答案。

Madhavan, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

Madhavan，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Read the two books in sequence, Monetizing Innovation and Scaling Innovation.

Madhavan Ramanujam：依次阅读两本书：货币化创新和扩展创新。

Because it's one thing to build a great product, it's yet another thing to build a great business.

因为打造出色的产品是一回事，打造出色的企业又是另一回事。

You cannot build a great business with a not-so-great product, and you cannot do it the other way around either.

你无法用不太出色的产品打造出色的业务，反之亦然。

So I think it's thinking about pricing early, especially for AI companies, being thoughtful about it, price before product, and then thinking about how to actually scale, developing a profitable growth mindset.

所以我认为应该尽早考虑定价，特别是对于人工智能公司来说，要深思熟虑，在产品之前定价，然后考虑如何实际扩展，发展盈利增长思维。

All of these things become critical.

所有这些事情都变得至关重要。

And I'm looking forward to the feedback from the audience.

我期待观众的反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like your books are in the staple of founder reading.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你的书是创始人阅读的主要内容。

There's all these things you just don't know what you're doing.

所有这些事情你只是不知道自己在做什么。

And there's a few of these books that are like, "Okay, here's all this advice that'll answer so many questions and save you so much heartache." And so I'm really excited you're adding something to that bookshelf.

其中有一些书的内容是：“好吧，这些建议可以回答很多问题，让你省去很多心痛。”所以我真的很高兴你能在书架上添加一些东西。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们走吧。

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Madhavan Ramanujam: The first one that comes to mind is Business Model Canvas by Alex Osterwalder.

Madhavan Ramanujam：第一个想到的是 Alex Osterwalder 的 Business Model Canvas。

It's a classic and one of my favorite books.

这是一本经典之作，也是我最喜欢的书之一。

I recommend a lot of people to read that because I think it nicely ties a lot of what we are also seeing from a more strategic business model angle.

我推荐很多人阅读这篇文章，因为我认为它与我们从更具战略性的商业模式角度看到的很多内容很好地联系在一起。

Madhavan Ramanujam: I like this book, Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我喜欢这本书，《快思考，慢思考》。

I think that's also a classic because, again, there's always a human element to things.

我认为这也是一个经典，因为事物中总是存在人为因素。

And understanding the customer psychology is important whether you're in B2C or in B2B.

无论您从事 B2C 还是 B2B，了解客户心理都很重要。

Because if you're in a B2B situation, it's humans having a human conversation.

因为如果你处于 B2B 环境中，那就是人类之间的对话。

So it's as much behavioral as it's actually numbers.

所以它既是行为，也是实际的数字。

So I love that book, and there's a lot of nuggets in there, so I recommend a lot.

所以我很喜欢这本书，里面有很多有价值的东西，所以我推荐了很多。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And probably the third one that I recommend is a book called Contagious by Jonah Berger.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我推荐的第三本可能是 Jonah Berger 写的一本名为《Contagious》的书。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

He was in the PhD program at Stanford in marketing, and he actually wrote this book on how to make messages viral.

他当时正在斯坦福大学攻读市场营销博士学位，实际上他写了这本关于如何使信息病毒式传播的书。

And he's actually seen the best viral messages and boiled it down to a framework.

他实际上看到了最好的病毒式传播信息，并将其归结为一个框架。

And if you follow that, then you can make those messages viral.

如果你遵循这一点，那么你就可以让这些信息像病毒一样传播。

And I've tried to use some of those in my own outreaches and things of that nature, so I think it's a fantastic read.

我尝试在自己的推广和类似性质的事情中使用其中的一些内容，所以我认为这是一本很棒的读物。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got to check this out.

Lenny Rachitsky：必须检查一下。

I have not.

我没有。

I haven't even heard of it.

我什至都没听说过。

All right.

好的。

We're going to go viral because we got the playbook.

我们会因为得到剧本而走红。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Contagious.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：具有传染性。

That's the name of the book.

这就是书名。

Lenny Rachitsky: Contagious.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：具有传染性。

Okay.

好的。

We'll link to that.

我们将链接到该内容。

Is there a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

最近有一部你非常喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: I guess a movie.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我想是一部电影。

Sure, let's pick a movie.

当然，我们选一部电影吧。

Definitely enjoyed Mission Impossible, the final one, eighth in the sequence.

绝对喜欢《碟中谍》，这是最后一部，第八部。

I think I find that a whole...

我想我发现整个...

I love those, the entire genre, one through eight.

我喜欢这些，整个类型，从一到八。

But what I kind of like about it is my willingness to pay has constantly increased over a period of time.

但我喜欢它的是我的支付意愿在一段时间内不断增加。

They could have charged me whatever they wanted for the eighth movie.

他们可以向我收取第八部电影的任何费用。

I would've probably gone and seen it, when I wanted to.

当我想去的时候，我可能会去看看。

So I thought that's an interesting example of a durable brand where your monetization power actually increase over a period of time.

所以我认为这是一个持久品牌的有趣例子，你的货币化能力在一段时间内实际上会增加。

So I think I enjoyed the movie.

所以我想我很喜欢这部电影。

It was great.

太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Hey, by the way, I just realized MI stands for Monetizing Innovation and also Mission Impossible.

Madhavan Ramanujam：嘿，顺便说一句，我刚刚意识到 MI 代表货币化创新，也是不可能完成的任务。

Maybe subconsciously that's why I liked it, too.

也许潜意识里这就是我喜欢它的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you're the Tom Cruise character.

兰尼·拉奇茨基：你就是汤姆·克鲁斯的角色。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how you're the only person in the world that thinks of Mission Impossible through a monetization, willingness-to-pay lens.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你，你是世界上唯一一个从货币化、支付意愿角度来看待《碟中谍》的人。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Exactly.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：没错。

I think there's too many of these dinner conversations also gravitate towards pricing and monetization.

我认为有太多的晚餐谈话也倾向于定价和货币化。

I think it's become my life.

我想这已经成为我的生活了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

We need a version of this movie, like a Mission Possible of Madhavan.

我们需要这部电影的一个版本，比如《马达万的使命》。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'd pay anything for that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我愿意为此付出任何代价。

All right.

好的。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Madhavan Ramanujam: I would probably talk about two products.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我可能会谈论两种产品。

The first one is Delphi, the Digital Mind representation.

第一个是 Delphi，数字思维的代表。

There's a Lennybot that you actually, I think, put out.

我想，实际上有一个 Lennybot 是你推出的。

I find that product fascinating, and I also love the founders, Dara and Sam there.

我发现这个产品很有趣，我也喜欢那里的创始人 Dara 和 Sam。

I truly believe that that is going to be the future for thought leadership and how thoughts are consumed by consumers.

我坚信，这将是思想领导力以及消费者消费思想的未来。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And I've used your Lennybot.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我用过你的 Lennybot。

I really enjoy it, like if I can co-create some thought leadership piece with talking to you, but it's not you, your AI, and it's actually living and breathing your brain.

我真的很喜欢它，就像我可以在与你交谈的同时共同创造一些思想领导力作品，但它不是你，你的人工智能，它实际上是在你的大脑中生活和呼吸。

How cool is that?

那有多酷？

And I think that I really love the product category.

我认为我真的很喜欢这个产品类别。

There's a lot of different use cases, longevity, extension, use cases, things of that nature.

有很多不同的用例，寿命，扩展，用例，诸如此类的东西。

I'm excited about the product.

我对这个产品感到很兴奋。

I think it's been great.

我认为这很棒。

I plan to, taking inspiration from you, plan to create a Delphi of myself-

我计划从你那里得到灵感，计划创建一个属于我自己的 Delphi-

Madhavan Ramanujam: ...

马达万·拉马努贾姆：...

the book maybe.

也许是这本书。

I'll try to.

我会尽力的。

That's the promise.

这就是承诺。

Try to keep it ready.

尽量做好准备。

So I think if you want to talk more about the book or things of that nature and talk pricing, you can talk to my AI, too, right?

所以我想如果你想更多地谈论这本书或类似的事情并谈论定价，你也可以和我的人工智能交谈，对吗？

I mean, I find the product fascinating.

我的意思是，我发现这个产品很有趣。

Madhavan Ramanujam: The second one I would probably say that's been super useful in terms of just productivity is Granola.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我可能会说，就生产力而言非常有用的第二个是格兰诺拉麦片。

We love that product.

我们喜欢那个产品。

I think just the ability to take notes and during all the meetings and organize it and being able to query things, et cetera.

我认为就是能够在所有会议期间做笔记并组织它并能够查询事物等等。

I think it's been a great product that we recently started trying and we've been really liking it.

我认为这是一个很棒的产品，我们最近开始尝试并且非常喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

That's been the most mentioned product recently.

这是最近被提及最多的产品。

How cool is that?

那有多酷？

Love Granola.

爱格兰诺拉麦片。

Get a year free of Granola if you're a paid subscriber to my newsletter, lennysnewsletter.com.

如果您是我的时事通讯 lennysnewsletter.com 的付费订阅者，即可免费享用一年格兰诺拉麦片。

Click bundle, one year free for not just you, your whole team.

单击捆绑，不仅为您，还有您的整个团队免费提供一年。

What an offer they offered.

他们提供了多么好的报价啊。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Lenny Rachitsky: On Delphi, what's interesting about LennyBot is it's not just my knowledge, it's every single podcast guest's insights and lessons also fed into it.

Lenny Rachitsky：在 Delphi 上，LennyBot 的有趣之处在于它不仅仅是我的知识，还有每一位播客嘉宾的见解和经验教训。

What an oracle of knowledge this thing's become.

这东西变成了多么伟大的知识神谕啊。

And it's free at this point, completely free.

现在它是免费的，完全免费的。

Lennybot.com.

Lennybot.com。

No, I get nothing from it.

不，我从中什么也得不到。

It's just out there.

它就在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回顾并发现它在工作或生活中很有用？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Create value in everything and anything that you touch.

Madhavan Ramanujam：为你接触到的一切事物创造价值。

Everything else will follow.

其他一切都会随之而来。

That's my life motto.

这是我的人生座右铭。

Lenny Rachitsky: That resonates deeply.

Lenny Rachitsky：这引起了深刻的共鸣。

Okay, last question.

好的，最后一个问题。

You recently moved into investing.

您最近开始涉足投资领域。

So what's cool is it used to be very expensive to work with at Simon-Kucher, I think it was called.

很酷的是，在西蒙顾和（Simon-Kucher）工作曾经非常昂贵，我想它是这样称呼的。

Very expensive.

非常贵。

A lot of big company stuff.

很多大公司的东西。

Now a lot of more founders have access to you because you're investing in startups.

现在，更多的创始人可以接触到您，因为您正在投资初创公司。

So just talk about that.

所以就谈谈这个吧。

Talk about what you're doing these days.

说说你这几天在做什么。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Sure.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：当然。

I mean, at Simon-Kucher, I got to work with over 250 companies.

我的意思是，在 Simon-Kucher，我与超过 250 家公司合作。

And my co-GP now, Josh Bloom, he also had an opportunity to work with our 250 companies.

我现在的搭档 Josh Bloom，他也有机会与我们的 250 家公司合作。

So combined, we worked with our 500 companies, more than 50-plus unicorns.

因此，我们与 500 家公司、超过 50 家独角兽公司合作。

It was a great ride.

这是一次很棒的旅程。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And often, we were actually working with them in much later stages when series D or pre-IPO, post-IPO, private equity companies, et cetera.

Madhavan Ramanujam：通常，我们实际上是在 D 轮融资或 IPO 前、IPO 后、私募股权公司等后期阶段与他们合作。

But the two of us actually now started a venture firm with an explicit goal of working with early-stage AI founders.

但我们两人现在实际上创办了一家风险投资公司，其明确目标是与早期人工智能创始人合作。

And it goes back to the topic that we started with.

这又回到了我们一开始的主题。

AI companies needs to deal with monetization from day one.

人工智能公司从第一天起就需要处理货币化问题。

But for those kind of companies, fee-for-service transaction model doesn't necessarily work.

但对于这类公司来说，按服务付费的交易模式不一定行得通。

And that's also why we pivoted to venture.

这也是我们转向创业的原因。

Madhavan Ramanujam: So our business model is pretty standard right now.

Madhavan Ramanujam：所以我们的商业模式现在相当标准。

You get access in the cap table.

您可以访问股权结构表。

We roll up our sleeves and work with the founders in all things monetization.

我们卷起袖子，与创始人在所有货币化方面合作。

So we are invested in their success and we will partake in the value creation.

因此，我们投资于他们的成功，我们将参与价值创造。

There's no fee for service, no friction on those kind of manners.

服务是免费的，在这种礼仪上也没有摩擦。

But on the flip side, we get to concentrate our efforts in fund one and probably 20 to 25 companies, and that's where we will be spending our time.

但另一方面，我们可以将精力集中在 1 家基金以及可能 20 到 25 家公司上，这就是我们将花时间的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a deal.

莱尼·拉奇茨基： 太划算了。

Madhavan, two final questions.

Madhavan，最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and talk about this offer?

如果人们想联系并讨论此优惠，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Madhavan Ramanujam: Ways to find out, I think just google for Monetizing Innovation and Scaling Innovation.

Madhavan Ramanujam：找到答案的方法，我想只需谷歌搜索“货币化创新”和“扩展创新”即可。

You'll probably land in a lot of pages.

您可能会进入很多页面。

You can also go to Amazon, I think, if you want to purchase the books.

我想，如果你想购买这些书，你也可以去亚马逊。

Actually, Scaling Innovation is now available in pre-order.

事实上，《Scaling Innovation》现已开放预订。

I think we'll have the pod released before the book is actually out.

我想我们会在这本书真正出版之前发布这个 Pod。

The book is going to be out on August 5th.

该书将于8月5日出版。

So there's an opportunity to pre-order.

所以有机会预购。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And maybe I will take an inspiration from your master bundle, which I really think is the world's best bundle, and come up with my own bundle for getting users to pre-order.

Madhavan Ramanujam：也许我会从您的主捆绑包中获得灵感，我真的认为这是世界上最好的捆绑包，并提出我自己的捆绑包来吸引用户预订。

So if you love Monetizing Innovation, I can tell you you would really love Scaling Innovation.

因此，如果您喜欢货币化创新，我可以告诉您您一定会喜欢扩展创新。

So go buy it for your teams.

所以去为你的团队购买吧。

Buy it for yourself.

给自己买吧。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And here's the offer.

Madhavan Ramanujam：这是报价。

So for anyone who's able to buy more than five copies, send us a screenshot of your purchase pre-order, right?

因此，对于能够购买超过五本的人，请向我们发送您的购买预购的屏幕截图，对吧？

Send us a screenshot of your purchase to promo@49palmsvc.com.

将您购买的屏幕截图发送至 promo@49palmsvc.com。

So that's promo, as in promotion, @49 P-A-L-M-S-V-C .com.

这就是促销，就像促销一样，@49 P-A-L-M-S-V-C .com。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And here's the bundle offer that I have.

Madhavan Ramanujam：这是我提供的捆绑优惠。

10 people will get access to bundles as a raffle, and the bundle is going to include a signed copy of Scaling Innovation, a 30-minute ask-me-anything session, an exclusive invite for a Scaling Innovation book launch, and also a Scaling Innovation t-shirt.

10 人将通过抽奖获得捆绑包，捆绑包将包括《Scaling Innovation》的签名副本、30 分钟的“提问我任何问题”会议、Scaling Innovation 图书发布会的独家邀请以及一件 Scaling Innovation T 恤。

So that's my coming up with a bundle.

这就是我想出的一个捆绑包。

I didn't get Granola and others to put in for me just yet, but I think this hopefully suffices and is exciting for folks to buy.

我还没有给我买格兰诺拉麦片和其他东西，但我认为这已经足够了，并且会让人们兴奋地购买。

Madhavan Ramanujam: And, yeah.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：是的。

I mean if you like the book, please do leave a review on Amazon.

我的意思是，如果您喜欢这本书，请在亚马逊上留下评论。

That always is helpful.

这总是有帮助的。

Because if more people review it, the book takes a life of its own.

因为如果有更多的人评论它，这本书就会有自己的生命。

And I'm really thankful for also the support that I got over the years from founder community, from the venture community for Monetizing Innovation.

我真的很感谢多年来我从创始人社区和风险投资社区获得的对创新货币化的支持。

I think there's been, over the last eight years, thousands and thousands of fans of the books.

我想在过去的八年里，这本书已经有成千上万的粉丝了。

They've done a whole lot talking about it, writing reviews, posting on LinkedIn, and making things like price before product or product market price fit and things as a part of founder vocabulary.

他们对此做了很多讨论，撰写评论，在 LinkedIn 上发帖，并将诸如产品价格或产品市场价格匹配之类的内容作为创始人词汇的一部分。

So I'm very passionate that people actually did that and very thankful for them.

因此，我非常热衷于人们确实这样做了，并且非常感谢他们。

So there's also probably an equal measure.

所以可能还有一个同等的措施。

If you're excited about Scaling Innovation, I would love for you to talk about the book.

如果您对《扩展创新》感到兴奋，我希望您能谈谈这本书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I think the reason people do that is because you give away so much for free.

我认为人们这样做的原因是因为你免费赠送了很多东西。

You just shared so much wisdom for free that is going to help so many people, so it all comes back to you.

你刚刚免费分享了这么多的智慧，这将帮助很多人，所以这一切都会回到你身上。

Madhavan Ramanujam: I just tried to plan my give and get right there.

Madhavan Ramanujam：我只是尝试计划我的捐赠并立即完成。

Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

Oh my God.

我的天啊。

A good callback.

一个很好的回调。

Madhavan, this was incredible.

Madhavan，这太不可思议了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Madhavan Ramanujam: Thank you so much, Lenny.

马达万·拉马努贾姆：非常感谢你，莱尼。

Was a pleasure.

很高兴。

Same.

相同的。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。