Gain attention as an underdog with this framework | Lulu Cheng Meservey

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I often say to find your audience's cultural erogenous zones.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我经常说要找到观众的文化性感带。

So what it means is people have things that they either care about or don't, and you're not going to change that.

所以这意味着人们有他们关心或不关心的东西，而你不会改变这一点。

So it's a huge lift to try to change someone's worldview or their passions.

因此，尝试改变某人的世界观或热情是一个巨大的提升。

It's a light lift to take the thing you want to talk about and just shape it into, to fit into their worldview or their passions.

将你想谈论的事情进行塑造，以适应他们的世界观或他们的热情，这是一个轻松的提升。

There's not always a fit.

并不总是合适的。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: There's going to be people who are just not your natural audience, and you should know that and not waste your time.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：有些人并不是你的天然受众，你应该知道这一点，不要浪费时间。

But if your natural audience cares about X and you're offering Y, then it's your job to create the API or to create the bridge from X to Y.

但是，如果您的自然受众关心 X，而您提供 Y，那么您的工作就是创建 API 或创建从 X 到 Y 的桥梁。

With messaging, it's not build it and they will come.

通过消息传递，不需要构建它，他们就会来。

It is so hard and you'd have to be superhumanly gifted to the extent that I can't recall seeing in my entire life, where you create a message and a story so powerful that someone who didn't care at all before suddenly makes that their passion.

这太难了，你必须具有超人的天赋，以至于我不记得在我的一生中见过你创造出如此强大的信息和故事，以至于以前根本不关心的人突然变得热情起来。

It's so much easier to take what they're passionate about and understand it, and then convince them that if they care about that then they should care about your thing because of this connection.

接受他们所热衷的事物并理解它，然后说服他们，如果他们关心这一点，那么他们应该因为这种联系而关心你的事情，这要容易得多。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Today, my guest is Lulu Meservey.

今天，我的客人是露露·梅瑟维。

I met Lulu while she was head of comms at Substack, where she was infamous for taking big risks and bold stands, and as a result creating a lot of attention for Substack, and other companies she's represented.

我认识 Lulu 时，她是 Substack 的通讯主管，她因冒大风险和大胆立场而臭名昭著，因此为 Substack 和她所代表的其他公司引起了广泛关注。

Lulu is definitely the most innovative and interesting comms person I've worked with.

Lulu 绝对是我共事过的最具创新性和最有趣的通讯人员。

Lenny: She's currently executive vice president of corporate affairs and chief communications officer at Activision Blizzard.

莱尼：她目前担任动视暴雪公司事务执行副总裁兼首席通讯官。

And she writes what I'd say is the best newsletter on PR and comms strategy, a newsletter called Flack.

她写了一份我认为是公关和传播策略方面最好的时事通讯，名为 Flack 的时事通讯。

In our conversation we get tactical about how to make your idea spread, cultural erogenous zones, the growing importance of going direct versus relying on traditional media.

在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了如何传播你的想法、文化敏感区、直接传播与依赖传统媒体日益重要的问题。

The importance of taking risks in your comms and much more.

在沟通中承担风险的重要性等等。

Lulu is so insightful, I could have continued to explore the subject for hours.

露露是如此有洞察力，我可以继续探索这个主题几个小时。

Enjoy this episode with Lulu Meservey after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与露露·梅瑟维一起欣赏这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：本集由 AssemblyAI 为您带来。

If you're looking to build AI powered features in your audio and video products then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.

如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。

What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top tier research labs.

我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问顶级研究实验室的最新人工智能突破。

They recently launched Conformer-1, the largest trained speech recognition model on the market which achieves state-of-the-art accuracy.

他们最近推出了 Conformer-1，这是市场上最大的经过训练的语音识别模型，可实现最先进的准确性。

All of AssemblyAI's models, which are accessed through their API are production ready.

通过其 API 访问的所有 AssemblyAI 模型均已做好生产准备。

Lenny: So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI, and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.

Lenny：我认识的很多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 构建音频用例的最快方法。

Now is the time to check out AssemblyAI with their new Conformer-1 model available today, which makes it even easier to bring the highest accuracy transcription to your customers just like Spotify, CallRail and Writer do for theirs.

现在是时候检查 AssemblyAI 及其新推出的 Conformer-1 模型了，这使得您可以更轻松地为您的客户提供最高精度的转录，就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 Writer 为他们的客户所做的那样。

Visit assemblyai.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no code playground, that's assemblyai.com/lenny.

请访问 assemblyai.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用他们的无代码游乐场（即 assemblyai.com/lenny）测试他们的模型。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Public.com who want to tell you about their new treasury accounts, which earn a 4.8% yield on your cash, that is higher than a high yield savings account while still being backed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

Lenny：这一集是由 Public.com 为您带来的，他们想向您介绍他们的新国库账户，该账户的现金收益率为 4.8%，高于高收益储蓄账户，同时仍得到美国政府的充分信任和信用支持。

Treasure yields are at a 15-year-high, but buying US treasuries is super complicated.

美国国债收益率处于 15 年来的高位，但购买美国国债却非常复杂。

If you go to a bank or navigate an ancient government website, or at least that was the case.

如果你去银行或浏览古老的政府网站，或者至少是这样。

Now you can move your cash into US treasuries with the flexibility of a bank account, and you can access your cash whenever you want even before your treasury bills hit maturity.

现在，您可以通过银行账户的灵活性将现金转移到美国国库券中，甚至在国库券到期之前，您可以随时提取现金。

There are no hold periods, no settlement days, just a safe place to park your cash and earn a reliable yield.

没有持有期，没有结算日，只有一个安全的地方来存放您的现金并赚取可靠的收益。

Lenny: Public will automatically reinvest your treasury bills at maturity, so you don't have to do anything to continue growing your yield.

莱尼：公众将在到期时自动对您的国库券进行再投资，因此您无需采取任何措施即可继续增加收益。

And you can manage your treasuries alongside stocks, ETFs, crypto, and any alternative assets.

您可以将您的资金与股票、ETF、加密货币和任何另类资产一起管理。

Do all your investing in one place and earn 4.8%, a higher yield than a high yield savings account only with a treasury account at public.com/lenny.

将所有投资集中在一个地方，即可赚取 4.8% 的收益，这比 public.com/lenny 上仅使用国库账户的高收益储蓄账户的收益率更高。

Lulu welcome to the podcast.

露露欢迎来到播客。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Thank you Lenny.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：谢谢你，莱尼。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I am really excited to chat all things comms and PR.

莱尼：我真的很高兴能谈论所有关于通讯和公关的事情。

I've never met a founder or product leader who doesn't want to get better at spreading ideas and getting their product out there, and you're very good at this.

我从来没有遇到过一个创始人或产品领导者不想更好地传播想法和推出他们的产品，而你在这方面非常擅长。

We're going to talk about some of the things you've done in the space.

我们将讨论您在该领域所做的一些事情。

But just to start maybe just broadly I'm curious to hear just what have you learned about what helps an idea spread?

但首先，也许只是广义上的，我很想听听您了解到什么有助于传播想法？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So there's a few ways to make the idea spread, the overall principle is you have to make it memorable and you have to make people want to say it of their own volition.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以有几种方法可以让这个想法传播开来，总的原则是你必须让它令人难忘，你必须让人们自愿地说出来。

And so what doesn't make them want to say it is doing a favor for a corporation.

因此，他们不愿意说这是为公司做事。

What does make them want to say it is they want to bring joy to somebody else, they want to make somebody laugh, they want to appear interesting, or they want to project some part of their identity.

他们想说的是，他们想要给别人带来欢乐，他们想要让别人发笑，他们想要显得有趣，或者他们想要展现自己身份的某些部分。

And so a few things that you can do with an idea to make it spread better, you can make it into a joke, so you can turn it into a line that people will repeat.

因此，你可以对一个想法做一些事情，让它更好地传播，你可以把它变成一个笑话，这样你就可以把它变成人们会重复的台词。

You can use an analogy, you can take something and just say it over and over, move fast and break things, don't be evil, build something people want.

你可以打个比方，你可以拿一些东西一遍又一遍地说，快速行动并打破事物，不要作恶，建立人们想要的东西。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: You can create a mental image that is very colorful.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：你可以创造一个非常丰富多彩的心理形象。

So I have a mental image for people that I use a lot, which is put the pill in some cheese and we can talk about it later, it's about how to craft a story that will stick.

所以我对经常使用的人有一个心理形象，那就是把药丸放在一些奶酪中，我们稍后再讨论，它是关于如何制作一个能够坚持下去的故事。

But when I say put the pill in cheese, people tend to remember that and it's more easily repeatable.

但当我说把药丸放在奶酪中时，人们往往会记住这一点，而且更容易重复。

And then the last thing is use a story, use an anecdote instead of using adjectives because adjectives are so subjective, they're meaningless to people.

最后一件事是使用故事、轶事而不是形容词，因为形容词太主观了，对人们来说毫无意义。

So if you give them a story that's something they can repeat over the dinner table.

因此，如果你给他们讲一个故事，他们就可以在餐桌上重复讲这个故事。

Lenny: Do you have any examples of the frameworks you just shared?

Lenny：您有刚才分享的框架的示例吗？

So you talked about maybe having an analogy or putting the pill in the cheese, which I think is referring to when you feed a dog a pill.

所以你谈到可能有一个类比或将药丸放入奶酪中，我认为这是指当你给狗喂药丸时。

You want to hide the pill in the cheese.

你想把药丸藏在奶酪里。

Is there any stories or examples that come to mind of this in action either something you've done or other companies you've seen?

在您做过的事情或您见过的其他公司中，是否有任何故事或例子在行动中浮现？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: One example not for the better is binders of women.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：一个不太好的例子是女性的活页夹。

You remember when Mitt Romney said binders of women and it just absolutely caught on like wildfire, and it's because you can picture the binder, it's a hilarious mental image.

你还记得当米特·罗姆尼（Mitt Romney）谈到女性活页夹时，它绝对像野火一样流行起来，这是因为你可以想象活页夹，这是一个搞笑的心理形象。

You make lots of jokes about it.

你为此开了很多玩笑。

It's a very specific unusual phrasing that is very repeatable, and it lends itself so much to memeing.

这是一个非常具体、不寻常的措辞，非常可重复，而且非常适合模因。

So it's not something that they wanted to have happen, which is a word of caution, this can backfire on you as well, but that's an example.

所以这不是他们想要发生的事情，这是一个警告，这也可能对你产生适得其反的效果，但这只是一个例子。

I mentioned move fast and break things, software is eating the world, it's time to build.

我提到要快速行动并打破常规，软件正在吞噬世界，是时候进行构建了。

Those are these short phrases that take normal words and put them in an unusual order, and then especially if you repeat them a few times they just become very sticky.

这些简短的短语采用普通单词并以不寻常的顺序排列它们，然后特别是如果您重复它们几次，它们就会变得非常粘。

Lenny: These things sound really smart and wise after the fact, do you have any advice on just how to...

莱尼：这些事情听起来真的很聪明，事后你对如何……有什么建议吗？

So we're talking about coming up with a cool phrase that'll spread of how to do that.

所以我们正在讨论想出一个很酷的短语来传播如何做到这一点。

I don't know what have you seen work for coming up with move fast and break things, how would a founder approach that?

我不知道你见过什么是快速行动、打破常规的工作，创始人会如何处理这个问题？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: You want to make it something that a second-grader could understand.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：你想让它成为二年级学生能够理解的东西。

You want to minimize the cognitive burden on the recipient.

您希望最大限度地减少接收者的认知负担。

So it should be something where they're not having to expend any extra energy understanding the thing, where it immediately paints a picture.

因此，这应该是他们不需要花费任何额外的精力来理解的东西，它可以立即描绘出一幅图画。

Or if you were to make a joke, it has to be a joke that they immediately get, or it's a very widely understood reference.

或者，如果你要开个玩笑，那必须是他们立即明白的玩笑，或者是一个非常广泛理解的参考资料。

You don't want it to be this inside joke with yourself that other people might get if you explain it to them.

你不希望这成为你自己内心的玩笑，如果你向其他人解释，他们可能会明白这一点。

So if you were to boil down the essence of let's say your company or your mission, get it to one sentence and then turn it into a sentence that you could explain to a second-grader, and then cleanse it of all cliches and common parlance.

因此，如果你要把你的公司或你的使命的本质归结为一句话，然后把它变成一个你可以向二年级学生解释的句子，然后清除所有陈词滥调和常见用语。

And if you can then turn that into an analogy or if you can make it into something that has imagery, then you're probably 80, 90% of the way there.

如果你能把它变成一个类比，或者你能把它变成有图像的东西，那么你可能已经成功了 80%、90%。

Lenny: So you've definitely done this on Twitter.

莱尼：所以你肯定在 Twitter 上做到了这一点。

It might be fun just to share a tweet or something of yours that has done this that has spread like crazy.

仅仅分享一条推文或你的一些已经做到这一点并疯狂传播的东西可能会很有趣。

I noticed you delete your old tweets, which I think is really smart and I should probably do that.

我注意到你删除了旧的推文，我认为这非常聪明，我可能应该这样做。

So I couldn't find any examples, but I remember just being like, "Holy shit, it's got a bazillion views." Is there there an example that comes to mind that you could share?

所以我找不到任何例子，但我记得我只是想，“天哪，它有无数的观点。”您有什么可以分享的例子吗？

Just share something you put out that just went crazy.

只是分享一些你刚刚发布的疯狂的东西。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I actually have a negative example too.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：其实我也有一个反面例子。

I think it's useful to share my mistakes or missteps in addition to what went right, because there's more mistakes and missteps than what goes right.

我认为除了正确的事情之外，分享我的错误或失误也是有用的，因为错误和失误比正确的事情更多。

In general, you try a bunch of things every once in a while they succeed.

一般来说，你偶尔会尝试一些事情，它们会成功。

But I think it's useful to think about what didn't land.

但我认为思考哪些没有落地是有用的。

And so one of mine was when you might remember this because this was the Substack era, when we were taking a lot of incoming for not censoring enough, and we took a stand that we want to encourage free expression.

所以我的一个想法是，你可能还记得这一点，因为这是 Substack 时代，当时我们因为审查不够而接受了很多传入的信息，我们采取了鼓励自由表达的立场。

I was actually on maternity leave, so I was a little bit out of the loop, but I wanted to jump in there and support the cause.

我实际上正在休产假，所以我有点不参与其中，但我想参与其中并支持这一事业。

And so I did a thread about why we're standing by this principle even when it's hard, and the thread was pretty well received, it traveled a lot.

所以我写了一篇帖子，解释为什么我们即使在困难的情况下也要坚持这一原则，而且这篇帖子很受欢迎，传播了很多。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I think it was 30 something thousand likes among people that we cared about, people who write on the internet.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我认为我们关心的人（在互联网上写作的人）中有 30 多个点赞。

And then there was one tweet in the thread where I said something like, "Doing this isn't pleasant, but neither for that matter is the sea." Completely esoteric reference, it was fresh in my mind because it was from a New Yorker book review where in that context it was poetic and evocative and beautiful.

然后帖子里有一条推文，我说了这样的话：“这样做并不令人愉快，但就此事而言，大海也不是。”完全深奥的参考资料，它在我的脑海中记忆犹新，因为它来自《纽约客》的一篇书评，在这种背景下，它充满诗意、令人回味和美丽。

And I did the thing you're not supposed to do, which is take an inside joke with yourself and release it into the world.

我做了一件你不应该做的事，那就是自己开个玩笑，然后向世界公开。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And that one tweet was a dud in the middle of the thread where you could see the likes drop off precipitously and people were like, "What are you talking about?" And then afterwards I looked at it with fresh eyes, "Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever out of a context." And also I'm not a New York book reviewer, so that was a good don't.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：那条推文在帖子中间是个哑弹，你可以看到点赞数急剧下降，人们会问，“你在说什么？”然后我用新的眼光看待它，“是的，脱离上下文这毫无意义。”而且我也不是纽约书评家，所以最好不要这样做。

But the fact that it was such a colorful metaphor actually caught people's attention in an accidental way.

但这样一个色彩斑斓的隐喻，却在不经意间引起了人们的注意。

I didn't mean for it too.

我也不是故意的。

I guess that's a don't, does that serve as an example?

我想这是不应该的，这可以作为例子吗？

Lenny: Yeah, that'll work and we'll go through other examples.

莱尼：是的，这会起作用，我们将讨论其他示例。

But that's a good segue to something I was going to save for later, but it may be a good time to chat about is just something that you're big on is this concept of taking risks as a comms person, I think you have the sense that comms people are just very conservative, and there's a big opportunity to get a little out there.

但这是一个很好的延续，我要留到以后做一些事情，但这可能是一个很好的时机，可以谈谈你所热衷的事情，即作为一名通讯人员承担风险的概念，我认为你有一种感觉，通讯人员非常保守，而且有很大的机会走出去。

And in this case maybe it didn't work out, other times you have and it has.

在这种情况下，也许它没有成功，但其他时候你成功了，它也成功了。

So just talk about that philosophy you have around taking risks.

因此，只需谈谈您关于冒险的哲学即可。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I think if you're a startup your enemy is the status quo.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我认为，如果你是一家初创公司，你的敌人就是现状。

And when you don't take risks, when you minimize risk by doing nothing, the best way to minimize risk is to do nothing.

当你不承担风险时，当你通过什么都不做来最小化风险时，最小化风险的最好方法就是什么都不做。

You're letting the status quo win.

你让现状获胜。

You're letting your greatest enemy and rival and threat to your business win by default, because you're not even going to try to compete.

默认情况下，你会让最大的敌人、竞争对手和对你的业务构成的威胁获胜，因为你甚至不会尝试竞争。

And so I always encourage people to try to make mistakes of commission rather than omission.

因此，我总是鼓励人们尝试犯犯错误，而不是犯疏忽错误。

Because if you make a mistake of commission you can observe it, you can learn from it.

因为如果你犯了一个错误，你可以观察它，你可以从中吸取教训。

You know right away that it's happened.

你立刻就知道它已经发生了。

You can move really quickly and adapt and become better.

你可以快速行动、适应并变得更好。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Whereas if you make mistakes of omission you're letting status quo win, you're not observing, you're not learning, and you're maybe not even noticing opportunities slip by.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：而如果你犯了疏忽的错误，你就会让现状获胜，你没有观察，你没有学习，你甚至可能没有注意到机会的流逝。

So the example that I use, again, an analogy to make it more memorable, my analogy for this is if you are investing money in the market versus if you're just sitting in cash.

因此，我再次使用一个类比来让它更容易记住，我的类比是，如果你在市场上投资资金，而不是你只是持有现金。

If you're sitting in cash you won't lose your money and it feels safe.

如果您持有现金，您就不会损失金钱，而且感觉很安全。

But over time the world moves and the market grows, and everybody else is getting richer and you're getting poorer in real terms.

但随着时间的推移，世界在变化，市场在增长，其他人都在变得更富有，而你实际上却在变得更穷。

Whereas if you make an investment it'll go up and down, there'll be some volatility.

然而，如果你进行投资，它会上下波动，会有一些波动。

It's not just going to go up every day, but over the long run you'll be much, much better off.

它不仅会每天上涨，而且从长远来看，你的情况会好得多。

Lenny: Is there an example of something you did that you took a risk and it worked out, or you saw someone else do this really well?

莱尼：有没有一个例子可以说明你冒险做过某件事并且成功了，或者你看到其他人做得很好？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: The stand for free speech thread would be a risk that worked out.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：言论自由的立场将是一个成功的风险。

It was a risk because it was a topic that a lot of people were already mad about, which will happen with every topic that matters.

这是一个风险，因为这是一个很多人已经为之疯狂的话题，每个重要的话题都会发生这种情况。

It felt a little risky for me because I was on leave, I wasn't really in the middle of things.

这对我来说有点冒险，因为我正在休假，我并没有真正参与其中。

I was addled already, so I had at least one thing in there that was nonsensical.

我已经很困惑了，所以我里面至少有一件事情是荒谬的。

So there was the execution risk of would I'd be able to do this well.

所以存在着我能否做好这件事的执行风险。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: There was also the risk of you poke your head up and make a thing where there wasn't a thing, and if that were to go wrong and embarrass the company or if that had made Chris or Hamish or Jerraj upset, that would've been upsetting to me and obviously a failure of my job.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：还有一种风险，就是你抬起头来，做了一件本来没有的事，如果出了问题，让公司难堪，或者让克里斯、哈米什或杰拉吉感到不安，那会让我感到不安，显然我的工作失败了。

So that was a risk that I took and we took and they were supportive, and it did work out because the people who were most likely to write on Substack generally appreciate that stance.

所以这是我冒的风险，我们也冒了风险，他们也支持，而且它确实成功了，因为最有可能在 Substack 上写作的人普遍欣赏这种立场。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I actually have one more for you Lenny when you asked about what are things that help stick in people's memory, there was the fail example of the sea analogy.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：其实我还有一个要给你的，Lenny，当你问到什么东西可以帮助人们牢牢记住时，有一个失败的例子，那就是大海的比喻。

I think a useful example that works is I often say to find your audience's cultural erogenous zones, and it is something that you immediately know what I'm talking about.

我认为一个有用的例子是我经常说的找到观众的文化性感区，这是你立即知道我在说什么的事情。

If I say know your audience's cultural erogenous zones, you know what it means, it's a shorthand that everybody understands.

如果我说了解你的观众的文化性感区，你知道这意味着什么，这是每个人都能理解的简写。

It's not an inside joke with myself, and it's something that is unusual and upraising that you're going to repeat it and hopefully remember it, so there's one for you.

这不是我自己开的玩笑，而是一种不寻常且令人振奋的东西，你会重复它并希望记住它，所以有一个适合你的。

Lenny: You told me about that framework and I definitely wanted to hear more about it.

Lenny：你告诉我有关该框架的信息，我确实想了解更多有关它的信息。

What does that mean and is there something that you've seen someone do that's just like, "Wow, they really nailed this erogenous zone approach."

这是什么意思？您是否见过有人做过类似“哇，他们真的掌握了这种性感带方法”的事情。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yeah, they really got it in the erogenous bull bullseye.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的，他们确实抓住了性感的靶心。

So what it means is people have things that they either care about or don't, and you're not going to change that.

所以这意味着人们有他们关心或不关心的东西，而你不会改变这一点。

So it's a huge lift to try to change someone's worldview or their passions.

因此，尝试改变某人的世界观或热情是一个巨大的提升。

It's a light lift to take the thing you want to talk about and just shape it into, to fit into their worldview or their passions.

将你想谈论的事情进行塑造，以适应他们的世界观或他们的热情，这是一个轻松的提升。

There's not always a fit.

并不总是合适的。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: There's going to be people who are just not your natural audience, and you should know that and not waste your time.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：有些人并不是你的天然受众，你应该知道这一点，不要浪费时间。

But if your natural audience cares about X and you're offering Y, then it's your job to create the API or to create the bridge from X to Y.

但是，如果您的自然受众关心 X，而您提供 Y，那么您的工作就是创建 API 或创建从 X 到 Y 的桥梁。

With messaging, it's not build it and they will come.

通过消息传递，不需要构建它，他们就会来。

It is so hard and you'd have to be superhumanly gifted to the extent that I can't recall seeing in my entire life, where you create a message and a story so powerful that someone who didn't care at all before suddenly makes that their passion.

这太难了，你必须具有超人的天赋，以至于我不记得在我的一生中见过你创造出如此强大的信息和故事，以至于以前根本不关心的人突然变得热情起来。

It's so much easier to take what they're passionate about and understand it, and then convince them that if they care about that then they should care about your thing because of this connection.

接受他们所热衷的事物并理解它，然后说服他们，如果他们关心这一点，那么他们应该因为这种联系而关心你的事情，这要容易得多。

Lenny: This makes me think about one of the other tweets that I think went crazy, which is where you share the things you're muting on Twitter.

莱尼：这让我想起了其他一条我认为疯狂的推文，那就是你在 Twitter 上分享你静音的内容。

Where it's like the threads thimble and the pointing down thing, and it feels like that's exactly that where people are just like, "Yep, this is me."

就像线顶针和向下的东西，感觉就像人们一样，“是的，这就是我。”

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yeah, it is that.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的，就是这样。

I have an example for you Lenny.

我有一个例子给你，莱尼。

The one that my mind goes to is when Kamala Harris was running for Senate.

我想到的是卡马拉·哈里斯竞选参议员时的情况。

Put aside what anyone thinks of Kamala Harris as a politician or if you agree with her politics, it doesn't matter.

抛开人们对卡玛拉·哈里斯作为政治家的看法，或者如果你同意她的政治观点，这并不重要。

When she was running for Senate, she had this example where not enough people care about K-12 education.

当她竞选参议员时，她就有过这样的例子：没有足够多的人关心K-12教育。

It's not a sexy topic and only moms care about it, whereas people cared a lot and still do about national defense, national security.

这不是一个性感的话题，只有妈妈们才关心它，而人们却非常关心并且仍然关心国防、国家安全。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And so she said the way to get their attention is you go to people who care about national security and you tell them, "Did you know that in order to enlist for the army you have to have a 10th grade reading level?" If you can't read at that level, you're not going to be able to read the army field manual.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以她说，引起他们注意的方法是你去找关心国家安全的人，告诉他们，“你知道吗，为了入伍，你必须有十年级的阅读水平？”如果你不能达到那个水平，你就无法阅读陆军野战手册。

And so if you care about the future of national defense and being able to maintain a standing army, you need to care about middle grade reading standards.

因此，如果你关心国防的未来并能够维持常备军，你就需要关心中等阅读水平。

So that's a perfect example, and in fact it stuck with me such that many years later I'm still repeating it to you.

所以这是一个完美的例子，事实上它一直困扰着我，以至于很多年后我仍然向你们重复它。

Lenny: Something else that I think what you teach helps with is underdogs coming up against incumbent companies, giving them a chance to stand out.

莱尼：我认为你所教授的其他内容有助于帮助处于劣势的公司与现有公司对抗，让他们有机会脱颖而出。

Like Substack I think is a good example where you just helped elevate Substack on the world stage in a lot of ways.

就像 Substack 一样，我认为这是一个很好的例子，您在很多方面帮助提升了 Substack 在世界舞台上的地位。

What have you found works best for underdog startups and companies trying to get attention?

您发现什么最适合处于劣势的初创公司和试图引起关注的公司？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: First, you have to acknowledge that you're the underdog, and you're not going to use the GE playbook from the 1980s or whatever.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：首先，你必须承认自己是失败者，你不会使用 20 世纪 80 年代或其他时期的 GE 策略。

So acknowledging that means knowing that you're not going to play the game that requires you to have more resources, more and deeper relationships, and institutional backings, and to be able to draft off of the current narrative.

因此，承认这一点意味着知道你不会玩需要更多资源、更多更深的关系和机构支持的游戏，并且能够起草当前的叙述。

So all of those things are going to be not in your favor.

所以所有这些事情都不会对你有利。

If you're a startup for example, by definition you're trying to disrupt something, you're trying to do something differently, you're fighting the status quo.

例如，如果您是一家初创公司，根据定义，您正在尝试颠覆某些事物，您正在尝试以不同的方式做一些事情，您正在与现状作斗争。

And if that's the case then you can't rely on maybe the government, maybe mainstream media to support what you're doing.

如果是这样的话，那么你就不能依赖政府或主流媒体来支持你正在做的事情。

And so you should assume that you want to go with an approach that doesn't require a lot of money or people, that doesn't require that institutional backing and those relationships.

因此，您应该假设您想要采用一种不需要大量资金或人员、不需要机构支持和这些关系的方法。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: That means building your own distribution, which you can do starting from day one.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这意味着构建您自己的发行版，您可以从第一天开始就这样做。

You can start doing that before you even have the company.

你甚至可以在拥有公司之前就开始这样做。

It means taking your story and winning hearts and minds.

这意味着讲述你的故事并赢得人心。

Number one, by making it a story that you shape to fit people's cultural erogenous zones of your audience.

第一，将其制作成适合观众文化性感区的故事。

And number two, by finding the centers of gravity in society, like the influencers that are going to help spread it for you.

第二，找到社会的重心，比如帮助你传播信息的影响者。

Because you're not going to on day one call up the New York Times and get them to print the story that you want them to.

因为你不会在第一天就打电话给《纽约时报》并让他们刊登你希望他们刊登的报道。

So you need to figure out who are the influencers and the way to do that, I'll cut off the rabbit hole after this because you can just go deeper and deeper, but the way to do that is in concentric circles.

所以你需要弄清楚谁是影响者以及做到这一点的方法，在此之后我将切断兔子洞，因为你可以越来越深入，但做到这一点的方法是在同心圆中。

There's a general who said if there's a problem I look for it in concentric circles going back to my own desk.

有一位将军说，如果出现问题，我会绕着同心圆寻找，然后回到我自己的办公桌前。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: If you want to spread something you go out in concentric circles starting from your own desk.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果你想传播一些东西，你就从自己的办公桌开始绕同心圆出去。

So you need to get first really clear with yourself about what your message is and just get really crisp with it.

因此，你首先需要清楚地了解自己要传达的信息是什么，然后清晰地表达出来。

This is hard to do because you know too much, so out of the 1,000 facts in your head you're going to have to pick just between one and three.

这很难做到，因为你知道的太多了，所以在你头脑中的 1000 个事实中，你只能选择一到三个。

And then the next circle is going to be your co-founders, your executives, your employees, your investors, you go to your power users, and you go out from there, and it has to be in that sequence.

然后下一个圈子将是你的联合创始人、你的高管、你的员工、你的投资者，你到你的超级用户，然后你从那里出去，而且必须按照这个顺序。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: But once you get the sequence and you identify who the people are and you know who your audience is, and then you're able to hone in on what their cultural erogenous zones are, then you're able to craft the message, have the delivery mechanisms, and then know your target, and then you're off.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：但是一旦你得到了序列，你确定了这些人是谁，你知道你的观众是谁，然后你就能够磨练他们的文化性感区是什么，然后你就能够精心设计信息，拥有传递机制，然后知道你的目标，然后你就可以出发了。

But you just need to do that exercise upfront, so you don't have a lot of wasted motion.

但你只需要提前做这个练习，这样你就不会浪费很多动作。

Lenny: I really like this concentric circle framework.

Lenny：我非常喜欢这个同心圆框架。

I haven't heard this before.

我以前没听说过这个。

Just to make it a little more real is there something that you can share, something that comes to mind that illustrates that?

为了让它更真实一点，你是否可以分享一些东西，一些你想到的东西可以说明这一点？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Well, you and I have talked a lot about Substack, so I'm speaking out of term now that I don't have the employee badge.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：嗯，你和我已经谈论了很多有关 Substack 的内容，所以现在我没有员工徽章，所以我说的话已经超出了时限。

But something that I thought the Substack founders have always done so well is propagate product updates out in concentric circles.

但我认为 Substack 创始人一直做得很好的一点是，以同心圆的方式传播产品更新。

So there's a lot of things where you're going to know about it.

因此，您需要了解很多事情。

You, Lenny will know about it more than a new writer who just joined, because you're a power user of the product and they would want you...

你，莱尼，会比刚加入的新作家更了解它，因为你是该产品的高级用户，他们会想要你......

Now they would want to make sure that you love the thing, and that you feel maybe even a little bit invested in the thing.

现在他们会想确保你喜欢这个东西，并且你觉得你可能对这个东西有一点投入。

You've been telling people about recommendations for nearly a year.

您已经向人们介绍推荐近一年了。

No one asked you to do that.

没有人要求你这样做。

We didn't pay you to do that.

我们没有付钱让你这么做。

You've done it because you were brought on board early and it was something that the company made sure that you liked, and then you became the next circle out that spread it to your next circle out.

你之所以这么做，是因为你很早就加入了公司，而且公司确保你喜欢这件事，然后你就成为了下一个圈子，并将其传播到你的下一个圈子。

Lenny: It's interesting because I didn't think of it as an intentional strategy to get news out, and it feels like there's a synergy with just talking to your power users.

Lenny：这很有趣，因为我并不认为这是一种有意发布新闻的策略，而且感觉与您的高级用户交谈会产生协同作用。

Getting feedback from your power users leads to this interesting second order effect where they also want to...

从高级用户那里获取反馈会导致这种有趣的二阶效应，他们也希望……

they feel like they're on the inside of something, they want to share it and maybe talk about it and tell friends about, "Hey, Substack's working this cool thing." So that's kind of a cool-

他们感觉自己身处某件事的内部，他们想要分享它，也许谈论它并告诉朋友，“嘿，Substack 正在做这个很酷的事情。”所以这有点酷——

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Well, early on Lenny you asked about how do you get a message to spread?

Lulu Cheng Meservey：嗯，Lenny 早些时候你问过如何传播信息？

And I said you give people incentives who want to spread it.

我说你要激励那些想要传播它的人。

So your incentive was you helping others, you like paying it forward and helping other writers and podcasters, and you genuinely enjoy the thing.

所以你的动机是帮助别人，你喜欢将钱转发出去并帮助其他作家和播客，而且你真的很喜欢这件事。

And I think there's some value to your own project that you get to show social proof that a lot of people like this thing and it's growing, and that's what you got.

我认为你自己的项目有一定的价值，你可以向社会证明很多人喜欢这个东西并且它正在成长，这就是你所得到的。

If it had been like, "Hey, Lenny, can you do us a favor and tweet this thing?" You might've done it, but you would've done it once and stopped and it wouldn't have been something that you organically keep doing.

如果它是这样的，“嘿，莱尼，你能帮我们一个忙，在推特上发布这个东西吗？”你可能已经做过了，但你可能做了一次就停下来了，这不会是你有机地继续做的事情。

Lenny: To make this even more real I'm trying to help people understand this concentric circle idea, so first Substack is an example.

Lenny：为了让这个更加真实，我试图帮助人们理解这个同心圆的想法，所以第一个 Substack 就是一个例子。

What would be the few layers of the concentric circle on the middle would be maybe the power writers.

中间那几层同心圆可能就是权力作家。

What would be the next couple layers?

接下来的几层是什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: It's the employees at the middle, almost always, and then it is depending on the company.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：几乎总是中间的员工，然后取决于公司。

So here it would be the power writers, it's youth, a lot of the original writers.

所以这里会是实力作家、年轻人、很多原创作家。

Bill Bishop comes up a lot, he was Substacker number one, he's always really meaningful.

Bill Bishop 经常出现，他是 Substacker 的第一名，他总是很有意义。

And then it's fast growing writers.

然后是快速成长的作家。

It is writer influencers.

这是作家影响者。

There are certain members of the media that cover media and writing, and so they matter a lot.

有些媒体成员负责报道媒体和写作，因此他们非常重要。

And then investors are in there just to keep close to the fold.

然后投资者进入那里只是为了保持密切关注。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: But if you're a different kind of company that might be employees board, institutional investors, government and regulators then users, just depending on how much power each group has to influence your future.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：但如果你是一家不同类型的公司，可能是员工董事会、机构投资者、政府和监管机构，然后是用户，这取决于每个群体对你的未来有多大影响力。

And the reason I say go out in concentric circles as opposed to just hit each of these groups kind of haphazardly is that's your way to control the message.

我之所以说要以同心圆的形式出去，而不是随意地攻击每个群体，是因为这是你控制信息的方式。

Because each circle is going to assume that the inner circle knows better than them and they're going to follow the lead of the inner circle.

因为每个圈子都会假设内圈比他们更了解，并且他们会跟随内圈的领导。

So an example is if you and I have a company, Lenny and Lulu, this is a DTC startup.

举个例子，如果你和我有一家公司，Lenny 和 Lulu，这就是一家 DTC 初创公司。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: If we had a company and we were trying to put out a message to the world that our new thing works, it's really revolutionary, our genes are the best genes.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果我们有一家公司，我们试图向世界传达这样一个信息：我们的新事物有效，这确实是革命性的，我们的基因是最好的基因。

If employees are not saying that, then people are going to look at employees and say, "Well, they would know, they're closer to this than we are.

如果员工不这么说，那么人们就会看着员工说：“好吧，他们会知道，他们比我们更接近这一点。

So if they're not excited then why would we be excited?" And so that undermines everything that we're trying to do, you can't skip a circle is my point.

所以如果他们不兴奋那我们为什么要兴奋呢？”因此，这破坏了我们正在尝试做的一切，我的观点是你不能跳过一个圆圈。

Lenny: Super interesting.

莱尼：超级有趣。

And I imagine the closer they are to the employees the more time you spend with them, and the more innately they're closer and also their perspective and what they share is more powerful because they're closer to what's happening.

我想他们与员工越亲近，你与他们相处的时间就越多，他们天生就越亲近，他们的观点和他们分享的内容也就越有影响力，因为他们更接近正在发生的事情。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And if it goes wrong the more damage they can do.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果出了问题，他们造成的损失就越大。

So on the spectrum it's if they are not totally on board and they're not an effective messenger, versus they're just lukewarm and they're not really sure they believe it.

因此，从范围上看，如果他们不完全同意，他们不是一个有效的信使，而不是他们只是冷漠，他们不确定自己是否相信这一点。

All the way to they actively fell off the bandwagon and you lost them, and now they're out there proactively contradicting everything you say or even trying to destroy the company, that can happen.

一直到他们主动脱离潮流，你失去了他们，现在他们主动反驳你所说的一切，甚至试图摧毁公司，这种情况是可能发生的。

If an early employee, for example, feels disgruntled, which is easy to do and it's easy to do through a comms mistake.

例如，如果一名早期员工感到不满，这很容易做到，而且很容易通过沟通错误来做到这一点。

If you sell them on one thing and here's a vision, and now either that's changed or you miscommunicated.

如果你向他们推销一件事，并且有一个愿景，但现在要么改变了，要么你传达错误。

If they feel like there's a bait and switch they're going to be really mad.

如果他们觉得有诱饵并改变，他们会非常生气。

And now you've created someone who is incredibly credible and has the same social and professional circle as you and is trying to ruin you.

现在你已经创造了一个非常可信的人，并且与你有相同的社交和职业圈子，并且正在试图毁掉你。

Lenny: That's such a good point.

莱尼：这是一个很好的观点。

For someone that's trying to do this maybe internally they're like, "Oh, cool, we got to create these circles for our startup." What do you recommend they do?

对于那些试图这样做的人来说，他们可能会在内部说：“哦，太酷了，我们必须为我们的初创公司创建这些圈子。”你建议他们做什么？

Do they make a list of here's our inner circle, here's the next circle of people.

他们是否列出了这是我们的核心圈子和下一个圈子的名单。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yeah, you take out your one-page Google Doc.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的，你拿出一页的 Google 文档。

I feel like most comms problems can be solved with one-page Google Doc.

我觉得大多数通信问题都可以通过一页 Google 文档来解决。

So you go to your one-page Google Doc and you take your audiences, you list them, probably stop at five or six because past that it's like way, way first world problem.

所以你去你的一页谷歌文档，你把你的受众，你列出他们，可能停在五到六个，因为超过了，这就像第一世界的问题。

You'll have more than enough work to win over the five or six inner circles, and then you have to rank them.

你需要做足够多的工作来赢得五六个内圈的支持，然后你必须对它们进行排名。

And you rank them by how much they're able to influence your success and how much credibility other groups assign them.

你可以根据他们对你成功的影响程度以及其他团体赋予他们的可信度对他们进行排名。

So then you have your inner to outer circles.

这样你就有了从内到外的圈子。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And then for each of them you would think about what do they care about that's their cultural erogenous zones and where do they reside intellectually?

Lulu Cheng Meservey：然后对于他们每个人，你都会思考他们关心什么，即他们的文化性感区以及他们的智力居住在哪里？

So do they listen to podcasts, if so, which ones.

他们听播客吗？如果听的话，听哪些播客。

Do they go to in-person conferences?

他们参加面对面的会议吗？

Are they getting all of their news from Reddit?

他们的所有新闻都是从 Reddit 获取的吗？

If so, which subreddits are they on Hacker News?

如果是这样，它们在 Hacker News 上有哪些 Reddit 子版块？

Once you map that out, then again you have the people you're trying to reach, the ideas and messages that resonate the most with them, and then the ways to actually reach them.

一旦你规划出来，你就会再次拥有你想要接触的人，最能与他们产生共鸣的想法和信息，然后是真正接触他们的方法。

Lenny: This is becoming a real template we can start using.

Lenny：这正在成为我们可以开始使用的真正模板。

In the bucket of erogenous zones what are some examples of erogenous zones for people in this context?

在性感带的桶中，有哪些对于这种情况下的人来说性感带的例子？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: We've talked about the free expression stand from last year.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我们从去年就讨论过自由表达立场。

A lot of people care about first amendment, protecting press freedoms and free expression.

很多人关心第一修正案，保护新闻自由和言论自由。

Not a lot of people care that a journalist said something mean about Substack.

没有多少人关心记者对 Substack 说了一些刻薄的话。

And so there were a few times when we did have to push back publicly against a journalist saying something mean and unfair or untrue about Substack.

因此，有几次我们确实不得不公开反击一名记者对 Substack 发表刻薄、不公平或不真实的言论。

So obviously my and our ulterior motive is to vindicate the company and show people that this isn't true.

显然，我和我们别有用心的动机是为公司辩护并向人们表明这不是真的。

But if we had just done that, nobody would've cared or maybe a few diehards would've cared.

但如果我们这样做了，没有人会在意，或者也许一些顽固分子会在意。

There are people who care deeply about Substack, but not as many people and not as deeply as the people who care about their ability to express themselves freely or their right to build their own media platform without too many controls.

有些人非常关心 Substack，但不像那些关心自己自由表达自己的能力或在没有太多控制的情况下建立自己的媒体平台的权利的人那么多，也没有那么深。

Lenny: The way you described it earlier came back to me as you were talking, which is this idea that lights people up.

莱尼：当你说话时，我想起了你之前描述的方式，这就是这个让人们兴奋的想法。

What lights people up within this list of people that you're making?

是什么让你列出的这个名单中的人受到启发？

So that's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

So the idea is create this list of people across circles further and further away from your employees.

因此，我们的想法是创建这个跨圈子的人员名单，这些人离你的员工越来越远。

Think about what lights them up, what are their erogenous zones intellectually, and then think about where they spend their time intellectually, what are they listening to?

想想是什么让他们兴奋起来，他们在智力上的性感区是什么，然后想想他们在智力上把时间花在哪里，他们在听什么？

What are they reading?

他们在读什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: It's not easy, it's hard, you have to make very difficult tactical decisions every day when you're doing that, but it is simple.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这并不容易，很难，当你这样做的时候，你每天都必须做出非常困难的战术决定，但这很简单。

Lenny: Yeah, it seems pretty easy.

莱尼：是的，看起来很简单。

Okay, this is great.

好的，这太棒了。

Another framework that we haven't talked about yet, do you have this math formula for how ideas spread?

我们还没有讨论过的另一个框架，你有关于想法如何传播的数学公式吗？

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I think it's useful to try to bring as much discipline as possible to comms, because you're really just measuring vibes.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我认为尝试为通讯带来尽可能多的纪律是有用的，因为你实际上只是在测量共鸣。

In a world of OKRs and data and metrics it's hard to know if you're doing the right thing with comms.

在 OKR、数据和指标的世界中，很难知道您是否在用通信做正确的事情。

And so I think whenever you're able to establish a framework its useful, so this one is kind of a mathematical formula of comms for a purpose.

所以我认为只要你能够建立一个框架，它就会很有用，所以这个框架是一种有目的的通信数学公式。

It assumes that you have a business goal and as a business goal, not communications goal, it's not get this many impressions or go viral or blah.

它假设您有一个业务目标，并且作为业务目标，而不是通信目标，它不会获得这么多印象或病毒式传播或废话。

It is we're going to grow our revenue by X, or we're going to make this penetration into this user base.

我们将把我们的收入增加 X，或者我们将渗透到这个用户群中。

When you have your business goal you're going to need certain people to do certain things for that goal to come true.

当您有了业务目标时，您将需要某些人做某些事情来实现该目标。

So for example, you're going to need this type of person in this quantity to buy these sneakers in order for you to meet your revenue goal.

例如，您将需要这种数量的此类人员来购买这些运动鞋，以便您实现收入目标。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So now you know who the people are and the action they need to take.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：现在您知道这些人是谁以及他们需要采取的行动。

The next step is what do they need to believe in order to take that action?

下一步是他们需要相信什么才能采取行动？

So they need to believe that their feet are not comfortable now, and that it's possible for their feet to be more comfortable and that'll have a positive effect on their life, and that this new sneaker technology is real, so they need to believe these things.

所以他们需要相信他们的脚现在不舒服，而且他们的脚有可能变得更舒服，这会对他们的生活产生积极的影响，而且这种新的运动鞋技术是真实的，所以他们需要相信这些事情。

Then it's where do they reside intellectually?

那么他们的智力居住在哪里呢？

How do you deliver that message to them, and that's the who do they listen to?

你如何向他们传递这个信息，他们听谁的？

Which accounts do they follow?

他们关注哪些帐户？

Which podcast do they...

他们有哪些播客...

what trips do they take?

他们进行哪些旅行？

What newspapers, et cetera.

什么报纸等等。

And when you have that then you have the equation of we need to deliver this message to these people through these mediums in order to get them to do this thing with this call to action.

当你有了这个之后，你就知道我们需要通过这些媒介向这些人传递这个信息，以便让他们通过这个号召性用语来做这件事。

And that way you know that you're at least pushing forward and getting something done with your comms as opposed to just saying words into the ether.

这样你就知道你至少在推动并通过你的通讯完成一些事情，而不是仅仅在空中说一些话。

Lenny: I think you had something like there's pressure and force and area, is that part of this or is that a different framework?

莱尼：我认为你有类似压力、力量和面积的东西，这是这个的一部分还是一个不同的框架？

Lenny: Okay, okay, let's talk about this other framework too.

Lenny：好吧，好吧，我们也来谈谈另一个框架吧。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I've got more frameworks, Lenny.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我有更多框架，Lenny。

Lenny: I love it, this is what this podcast is all about.

莱尼：我喜欢它，这就是这个播客的全部内容。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: This is a useful one for early stage startups especially, or anybody who's just trying to be lean and efficient, which is anyone who's an underdog like we talked about earlier, that if you decrease the surface area than with the same amount of force you can apply more pressure.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这对于早期初创公司尤其有用，或者对于任何只是想变得精干和高效的人来说，这是一个有用的方法，就像我们之前讨论过的那样，如果你减少表面积，那么你可以施加更大的压力。

So the amount of pressure is the force divided by the surface area, this is a basic equation for physics, but it's also true of communications, which is if you decrease the surface area and don't try to appeal to everybody with everything.

所以压力的大小就是力除以表面积，这是物理学的基本方程，但对于通信也是如此，如果你减少表面积并且不要试图用一切来吸引每个人。

And you're targeting exactly whom you're talking to and you are sharpening your message to a point, to get them in the bullseye of the cultural erogenous zone.

你准确地瞄准了你正在交谈的对象，并且你正在将你的信息锐化到一定程度，让他们进入文化性感区的靶心。

Then you're able to with the same amount of effort or expense or time, you're able to make more of an impact, you're able to apply more pressure.

然后，你能够以相同的努力、费用或时间，产生更大的影响，你能够施加更大的压力。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So I think of it as there's a continuum between you can either hyper-target, so the extreme of the continuum is you are becoming the life partner of one person.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以我认为，你们之间有一个连续体，可以是超级目标，所以连续体的极端是你正在成为一个人的生活伴侣。

That's the ultra hyper targeting.

这就是超超定位。

And then the other end of the spectrum is you're appealing to everybody.

另一方面，你对每个人都有吸引力。

You're appealing to a larger number of people, but with a weaker message, in a weaker way.

你以较弱的方式吸引了更多的人，但信息较弱。

So you could say world peace is good, nobody disagrees with that practically, but also it doesn't stick and it's not meaningful to them.

所以你可以说世界和平是好的，实际上没有人不同意这一点，但它也不会持久，对他们来说没有意义。

So you have to choose where you're going to be along that continuum.

所以你必须选择你将在这个连续体中所处的位置。

And for most startups I would choose towards the fewer people end of it, where you choose who's going to be your diehards and then you foster them and create really deep meaningful relationships with them.

对于大多数初创公司，我会选择人数较少的一端，你选择谁将成为你的顽固分子，然后你培养他们并与他们建立真正深厚的有意义的关系。

And the way to do that is to decrease the surface area and apply more pressure.

做到这一点的方法是减少表面积并施加更大的压力。

Lenny: It feels like you did that with Substack where it was focused on people writing online, or I guess tell me is that how you thought about it Substack of here's our little focused area and we'll focus target message to that.

Lenny：感觉就像你对 Substack 所做的那样，它专注于人们在线写作，或者我想告诉我你是如何看待它的 Substack 是我们的重点领域，我们将重点关注目标消息。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: That was the goal and that's actually why I started spending time on Twitter.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这就是我的目标，也是我开始花时间在 Twitter 上的原因。

It was a very self-loathing exercise like Hamish doesn't like the Twitter model, nor do, we would talk about this a lot and I always felt a little bit fringe being on there.

这是一种非常自我厌恶的行为，就像哈米什不喜欢 Twitter 模式一样，也不喜欢，我们会经常谈论这个，而我总觉得自己有点边缘化。

And before I worked at Substack I had a sleepy account of a couple hundred followers that didn't do very much.

在我在 Substack 工作之前，我有一个只有几百名关注者的昏昏欲睡的账户，但他们并没有做太多事情。

And I realized that the people that we were trying to speak to are heavy Twitter users, whether it's media people or online writers.

我意识到我们试图与之交谈的人都是 Twitter 的重度用户，无论是媒体人士还是网络作家。

And so I decided I'm going to spend some time and try to build an audience and then that audience became leverage, for better or worse.

因此，我决定花一些时间尝试建立受众群体，然后无论好坏，受众群体都会成为杠杆。

I don't think we should measure people by their Twitter following, but the fact is that if you have more then journalists and writers take you a bit more seriously.

我认为我们不应该通过推特粉丝数来衡量一个人，但事实是，如果你的粉丝数更多，那么记者和作家就会更认真地对待你。

And so if I was going to try to carry a message on behalf of the company, I felt like it would be more effective if I had more people.

因此，如果我要尝试代表公司传达信息，我觉得如果我有更多的人，事情会更有效。

Lenny: And it worked.

莱尼：而且成功了。

This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

本集由 Vanta 为您带来，帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company is taking proper security measures to protect customer data, and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 可以证明您的公司正在采取适当的安全措施来保护客户数据，并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Lenny: Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups, it's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

Lenny：开始编写 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，特别是对于初创公司来说，它既耗时、乏味又昂贵。

Enter Vanta.

输入万塔。

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超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny's Podcast 听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's vanta.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Going back to this formula, pressure equals force divided by area.

莱尼：回到这个公式，压力等于力除以面积。

Basically, to increase the effectiveness of your message you can either increase the force and what is in this context force?

基本上，为了提高信息的有效性，您可以增加力量，在这种情况下什么是力量？

Is it like the amount of messaging or is it the success of your message?

是消息的数量还是消息的成功率？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: It's the amount of effort you put into it.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这是你投入的努力量。

So it's how much you are spending on this campaign or you have a limited amount of hours in the day and dollars in the bank.

所以这取决于你在这次活动上花费了多少钱，或者你一天中的时间和银行里的美元有限。

And so anytime you're doing something with comms, you're either paying the dollars or you're paying the time.

因此，每当您使用通信进行某些操作时，您要么付出金钱，要么付出时间。

Sometimes you're drawing down on credibility too, you have a certain amount of credibility and there are times when you just have to say, "Please trust me." You can spend that more efficiently if you focus.

有时你也会利用可信度，你有一定的可信度，有时你只需要说：“请相信我。”如果你专注的话，你就能更有效地花钱。

So instead of if you just take a simple ad campaign, instead of spending a million dollars to reach a million people, maybe you spend a $100 to reach the hundred most important people.

因此，如果你只是进行一个简单的广告活动，而不是花费 100 万美元来接触 100 万人，也许你会花 100 美元来接触 100 个最重要的人。

And focus that message exactly to them so that when they see your ad they're actually going to click on it and they're actually going to forward it, and that's a much better return.

并将该消息准确地集中给他们，这样当他们看到您的广告时，他们实际上会点击它并且他们实际上会转发它，这是一个更好的回报。

And then you might end up with a million dollars worth of return, because those people were so passionate that they then became their own messengers without you even having to be involved anymore.

然后你最终可能会得到价值一百万美元的回报，因为这些人是如此热情，以至于他们成为了他们自己的使者，而你甚至不必再参与其中。

Lenny: This is a really great framework, again, is your advice that for the smaller you are just basically reduce the area?

Lenny：这是一个非常棒的框架，您的建议是，对于较小的框架，您只是基本上减少面积？

Lenny: And the larger you are increase that over time?

莱尼：随着时间的推移，你的规模越大，这个比例就会增加吗？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yes.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的。

If you're just starting out, get 10 diehards and just spend all your time...

如果你刚刚开始，那就找 10 个顽固分子，然后花上你所有的时间......

You can't start out and try to win over the general public.

你不可能一开始就试图赢得公众的支持。

You start out by creating a tiny, not the best analogy is one I can think of right now, a tiny monopoly.

你首先要创建一个微小的、我现在能想到的不是最好的类比——一个微小的垄断。

And it's the same like succeeding on Substack or creating anything on the internet.

这就像在 Substack 上取得成功或在互联网上创建任何东西一样。

You choose what is going to be your tiny corner of the internet that you are going to just dominate entirely.

你选择什么将成为你在互联网上的一个小角落，你将完全主宰它。

And the smaller it is, the more you can dominate it and then these people that are in it become your true believers, your diehards, and they'll expand it out to the next circle and then you go from there.

它越小，你就越能主宰它，然后里面的这些人就成为你真正的信徒，你的顽固分子，他们会把它扩展到下一个圈子，然后你就从那里开始。

But if you try to win over everybody at the same time, it's a food coloring in the ocean kind of thing as opposed to food coloring in a cup.

但如果你试图同时赢得所有人的青睐，那就是海洋中的食用色素，而不是杯子里的食用色素。

Lenny: Is there an example that comes to mind of someone that did this really well?

莱尼：我能想到一个在这方面做得非常好的例子吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I know it's hard to think of just an example off the top of your head, but does anything come to mind?

我知道你很难凭空想出一个例子，但是你能想到什么吗？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Balaji did this really well with his book The Network State, that book was super successful.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：巴拉吉在他的书《网络状态》中做得非常好，那本书非常成功。

He didn't do a lot of the traditional book tour New York Times stuff.

他没有做很多《纽约时报》传统巡回售书活动。

He went his own route, and I think that was really smart if you're going to put it in the setting of this framework, it's he created his own distribution channels.

他走了自己的路，我认为如果你要把它放在这个框架的背景下，那真的很聪明，因为他创建了自己的分销渠道。

He didn't try to compete with the roster of Harper Collins on their turf, and when he created his own distribution channels he focuses on who are the diehards and the truth fans, and these are people that he fosters.

他并没有试图在哈珀·柯林斯的地盘上与他们竞争，当他创建自己的发行渠道时，他关注的是谁是顽固分子和真相粉丝，而这些人是他培养的。

He goes on podcasts that reach these people.

他通过播客来接触这些人。

He doesn't deviate from messaging to try to appeal to everybody.

他并没有偏离传达信息来试图吸引所有人。

There are people who just will never like that guy and he is totally fine with it.

有些人永远不会喜欢那个人，但他完全同意。

So he's not watering down who he is to appeal to people who will never like him, which it's tempting for companies to do.

因此，他并没有为了吸引那些永远不会喜欢他的人而淡化自己的身份，而这对公司来说很有吸引力。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: You hate when people are mad at you, so you try to appeal to them and then your true fans lose their passion because the thing that made you so special has now gone milk toast.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：你讨厌人们对你生气，所以你试图吸引他们，然后你真正的粉丝就失去了热情，因为让你如此特别的东西现在已经变成了牛奶吐司。

So Balaji fosters his true fans and then when the book launched they propelled him to the top of the Amazon list, because they were out there evangelizing, proselytizing.

因此，巴拉吉培养了他的忠实粉丝，然后当这本书推出时，他们把他推到了亚马逊排行榜的榜首，因为他们在那里传播福音，劝说他人改宗。

You probably saw all these tweets about his book.

您可能看过所有有关他的书的推文。

He didn't pay anybody as far as I know.

据我所知，他没有付钱给任何人。

He didn't pay anybody to do that.

他没有付钱给任何人来做这件事。

He just shared it with the people and they wanted to show that they were into this.

他只是与人们分享了它，他们想表明他们对此很感兴趣。

Lenny: That's a great example.

莱尼：这是一个很好的例子。

I know that founders often worry focusing too narrowly limits their market, and it's never going to grow into anything large.

我知道创始人经常担心过于狭隘地限制他们的市场，而且它永远不会成长为任何大的东西。

In your experience do you find that that's just often not true, that there's often a much bigger opportunity than they think?

根据您的经验，您是否发现这通常不是真的，机会往往比他们想象的要大得多？

Or is that just a good way to start and then you expand from there?

或者这只是一个开始然后再扩展的好方法？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: It's both.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：两者都是。

If you're writing online or doing something online, the denominator is the size of the internet.

如果您在线写作或在线做某事，则分母就是互联网的大小。

You don't need to capture 80% of it.

你不需要捕获其中的 80%。

If you capture 0.01% of it, that is a great business and then you can go from there.

如果你能抓住其中的 0.01%，那就是一笔伟大的生意，然后你就可以从那里开始。

Once you've won that then you can decide to go from there and the world is a big place.

一旦你赢得了胜利，你就可以决定从那里开始，世界是一个很大的地方。

So now that everything's digital the denominator's so large that I wouldn't worry too much about the numerator.

所以现在一切都是数字化的，分母太大了，我不会太担心分子。

But it is also true that if you start off trying to peel to too many people, you have to water down your stuff so much that you'll never stand out.

但事实上，如果你一开始就试图向太多人推销，你就必须淡化你的东西，这样你就永远不会脱颖而出。

And you've written about this Lenny with how to be viral, how to be noticed, and one of the things is be remarkable.

你写过关于莱尼如何成为病毒、如何受到关注的文章，其中之一就是要引人注目。

And you can't be remarkable if you're trying to appeal to so many people that you have to become the average of 500,000 people's tastes.

如果你想吸引这么多人，以至于必须迎合 50 万人的口味，那么你就不可能出色。

Lenny: This is a good way to think about I think when something's not working, when you're trying to get a bunch of attention for your product and no one cares.

莱尼：这是一个很好的思考方式，我认为当某些事情不起作用时，当你试图让你的产品获得大量关注但没有人关心时。

Feels like this is one reason is just you're going too wide.

感觉这只是你走得太宽的原因之一。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yeah, I think that's probably the most common reason.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的，我认为这可能是最常见的原因。

Lenny: Maybe just thinking about diagnosing why your comms may not be working.

莱尼：也许只是想诊断一下为什么你的通讯无法工作。

This may be too big of a question, but just what other explanations could there be for why no one cares about what you're trying to put out?

这可能是一个太大的问题，但是对于为什么没有人关心你试图发布的内容，还有什么其他解释呢？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: You're doing it as a corporation instead of a person.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：你是作为一家公司而不是一个人来做这件事。

This is another super common mistake is you're letting yourself speak like a faceless corporation because it feels like that's what you should do now.

这是另一个非常常见的错误，就是你让自己像一个不露面的公司一样说话，因为感觉这就是你现在应该做的。

Okay, now you're a real company and now you got to do real company stuff, that means you have to issue decrees on behalf of the C corp and you don't.

好吧，现在你是一家真正的公司，现在你必须做真正公司的事情，这意味着你必须代表 C 集团发布法令，但你不需要。

And it doesn't work because people don't trust institutions.

它行不通，因为人们不信任机构。

People don't like corporations or at least are not passionate about them.

人们不喜欢公司，或者至少对公司没有热情。

People care about people and trust and like people, and so there's a sense of wanting to cosplay an executive and it doesn't work, it doesn't resonate.

人们关心他人、信任他人、喜欢他人，因此有一种想要扮演高管的感觉，但这不起作用，也不会引起共鸣。

A good example of this would be Ryan Peterson at Flexport.

Flexport 的 Ryan Peterson 就是一个很好的例子。

His company, even after it got huge, he never became the generic corporate chief.

他的公司，即使在规模扩大之后，他也从未成为一般的公司首席执行官。

He always was a person.

他始终是一个人。

And there are people, many, many people who became interested in Flexport because Ryan's an interesting guy.

有很多很多人对 Flexport 感兴趣，因为 Ryan 是一个有趣的人。

And it's not like they had a passion for logistics and freight and shipping, but he's doing something interesting.

他们并不是对物流、货运和航运充满热情，但他正在做一些有趣的事情。

And then he became the human gateway drug for people to become interested in his company.

然后他成为人们对他的公司产生兴趣的入门药物。

Lenny: Yeah, absolutely.

莱尼：是的，绝对是。

He had that crazy viral tweet about the ports and that's a really good example.

他发布了有关港口的疯狂推文，这就是一个很好的例子。

Man, I was going to go in a different direction, but maybe we go to this idea of going direct.

伙计，我本来打算走不同的方向，但也许我们会采取直接走的想法。

You're a big fan and Balaji is a really big fan of this too, speaking of just the importance of going direct.

你是一个超级粉丝，巴拉吉也是这个超级粉丝，谈到直接的重要性。

So maybe just talk about what does that mean and why is that important these days?

那么也许只是谈谈这意味着什么以及为什么这在当今如此重要？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Well, Balaji is more go direct than me.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：嗯，Balaji 比我更直接。

He thinks that I'm soft in this area because I think that there's still a place for engaging with media and that it's just another tool.

他认为我在这方面很软弱，因为我认为仍然有与媒体互动的空间，而这只是另一种工具。

He's for just straight-up go direct undistilled.

他主张直接不蒸馏。

But I think that for everybody a 100% of the time you want going direct to be a part of what you're doing, whether it's all you're doing, or whether you're doing something else, you can't not have a direct channel.

但我认为，对于每个人来说，100% 的时候，你都希望直接参与你正在做的事情，无论你正在做的所有事情，还是正在做其他事情，你都不能没有直接渠道。

So what that actually looks like, and people say this all the time go direct.

那么实际上是什么样的，人们总是这么说，直接说。

What does that actually look like to go direct?

直接去实际上是什么样子？

It means that the founder or executive for some very senior person has to be speaking from themselves.

这意味着一些非常资深的人的创始人或执行官必须从他们自己的角度说话。

First person, may be first person plural, and speaking in a human voice authentically.

第一人称，可以是第一人称复数，并且以真实的人声说话。

You see them make mistakes, you see them be vulnerable, and they have to become an ambassador to the community.

你看到他们犯错误，你看到他们很脆弱，他们必须成为社区的大使。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: If you don't have that, then you don't have a direct channel even if you have a Twitter or a Substack or whatever, it's not direct if not connected to a person because if the other side of it is a corporation there's no direct connection.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果你没有这个，那么你就没有直接的渠道，即使你有 Twitter 或 Substack 或其他什么，如果没有与个人连接，它也不是直接的，因为如果它的另一边是一家公司，那就没有直接的联系。

And then the second thing is start building your own audience as soon as possible.

第二件事是尽快开始建立自己的受众群体。

You can do this alongside engaging with the media or doing traditional things.

您可以在与媒体互动或做传统事情的同时做到这一点。

To the point of focusing your energy and decreasing the surface area, for startups I would not recommend trying to do an Instagram, a Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and TikTok.

为了集中精力并减少表面积，对于初创公司来说，我不建议尝试做 Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、YouTube 和 TikTok。

I would choose the thing that that person is the best at.

我会选择那个人最擅长的事情。

So if your spokesman is going to be your CEO, which is a good default, they're going to have a dominant communication style where they're the best at being themselves.

因此，如果你的发言人将成为你的首席执行官（这是一个很好的默认设置），他们将拥有一种占主导地位的沟通风格，他们最擅长做自己。

And that's important because if somebody else is ghost-writing all their stuff, it shows.

这很重要，因为如果其他人代写了他们所有的东西，就会显示出来。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So some CEOs are better at writing long form.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以有些首席执行官更擅长写长篇大论。

Some CEOs are better at doing videos.

有些CEO更擅长制作视频。

Some do better with audio or podcasts, some are better with short form.

有些在音频或播客方面做得更好，有些在简短形式方面做得更好。

The way that Elon Musk communicates on Twitter, he's born to do Twitter.

埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk) 在 Twitter 上的交流方式表明，他生来就是做 Twitter 的。

You can't picture him writing long thoughtful blog posts, it's not a thing that he does.

你无法想象他会写长篇深思熟虑的博客文章，这不是他做的事情。

Whereas Brian Armstrong or Hamish or Chris, they write great blog posts that are sincere and effective, and that's better than them just trying to do it only through tweets.

而布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗（Brian Armstrong）、哈米什（Hamish）或克里斯（Chris）则撰写了真诚而有效的精彩博客文章，这比他们仅仅通过推文来做到这一点要好。

So pick the thing that your spokesperson is the best at and then invest everything into that channel, and then build it up to a decent amount and then expand outward.

因此，选择你的代言人最擅长的事情，然后将所有资金投入到该渠道中，然后将其建立到相当的数额，然后向外扩展。

Because if you try to build six or seven channels at once you're just not going to get anywhere.

因为如果您尝试同时建立六七个渠道，您将一事无成。

Lenny: I think that's such a important point.

莱尼：我认为这是非常重要的一点。

I feel like me choosing a newsletter was actually a really good choice.

我觉得我选择时事通讯实际上是一个非常好的选择。

As much as you may not believe this I'm not a performer person, I just want to hide behind the computer and just type stuff.

尽管你可能不相信这一点，但我不是一个表演者，我只是想躲在电脑后面打字。

And the newsletters, especially during COIVD, I was like, "I just sit at home and share stuff and edit and think about it where it's like, 'Hello everyone.'" And it took me a while to get to this point of like, "Oh, I can maybe do a podcast because I've built up a little more confidence that this is useful." So I so agree with that and that's what I tell a lot of people.

时事通讯，尤其是在新冠肺炎疫情期间，我当时想，“我只是坐在家里分享东西，编辑并思考它，就像‘大家好。’”我花了一段时间才达到这样的程度，“哦，我也许可以做一个播客，因为我已经建立了更多的信心，这很有用。”所以我非常同意这一点，这也是我告诉很多人的。

Just pick the platform that is most natural to you.

只需选择对您来说最自然的平台即可。

Maybe you like talking, maybe you performing on video, maybe you just want to sit and type.

也许您喜欢说话，也许您喜欢在视频中表演，也许您只是想坐下来打字。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And that's a good point too, Lenny, because it changes over time.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这也是一个很好的观点，Lenny，因为它会随着时间的推移而改变。

Just because you pick one thing doesn't mean that you're stuck with only that forever.

仅仅因为你选择了一件事并不意味着你永远只能坚持这一件事。

Over time you might choose different things and I've seen founders become a lot more comfortable in front of the camera, for example, once they've done a few reps.

随着时间的推移，你可能会选择不同的事情，我发现创始人在镜头前变得更加自在，例如，一旦他们做了几次代表。

And the other reason to know that you can just change it over time is otherwise it feels like a deterrent to getting started.

知道你可以随着时间的推移改变它的另一个原因是，否则它感觉像是对开始的阻碍。

Sometimes there's paralysis if I don't know which thing to choose, and so I'm either going to do a bunch of them or none of them.

有时，如果我不知道该选择哪件事，我就会陷入瘫痪，所以我要么做一堆，要么什么都不做。

Go with your gut pick one and you're not wed to that forever, you can always change it down the road.

跟着你的直觉选择一个，你不会永远与它结婚，你可以随时改变它。

Lenny: Do you think every founder needs to be on Twitter?

Lenny：你认为每个创始人都需要使用 Twitter 吗？

I get this a lot from founders.

我从创始人那里得到了很多这样的信息。

Do I need to be on Twitter?

我需要上 Twitter 吗？

I hate Twitter.

我讨厌推特。

What's your take?

你怎么看？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: No, I think a lot of founders do.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：不，我认为很多创始人都是这样做的。

If they are super mission driven, for example, that's one way that you're going to find other people that resonate with your mission and that you're going to make the case for the mission.

例如，如果他们是超级使命驱动的，那么这是您找到与您的使命产生共鸣的其他人的一种方式，并且您将为该使命提供理由。

If you're mission driven there's also a good chance that you're doing something that some people love and some people hate.

如果你是使命驱动的，那么你很有可能正在做一些人喜欢而另一些人讨厌的事情。

And so you're going to need to be out there fighting the fight in a way.

所以你需要以某种方式去战斗。

I don't mean in a pugilistic antagonistic way, but you have to defend your thing.

我并不是说以一种拳击对抗的方式，但你必须捍卫你的东西。

And so I think it's important if you're mission driven.

所以我认为如果你是使命驱动的，这一点很重要。

I also think it's important if your charisma is a big part of recruiting for the company.

我还认为，如果你的魅力是公司招聘的重要组成部分，这一点也很重要。

There are some companies where the founder's charisma is a big part of why people want to go work there.

有些公司的创始人的魅力是人们愿意去那里工作的一个重要原因。

So Palmer Lucky and Anduril, he is magnetic to a lot of engineers and they want to go work with that guy, specifically.

所以 Palmer Lucky 和 ​​Anduril，他对很多工程师来说都很有吸引力，他们特别想和那个人一起工作。

Whereas there are companies where people want to go work for the company and it's less important that the founder is vocal.

然而在有些公司，人们希望为公司工作，而创始人是否敢于发声并不那么重要。

Lenny: What's interesting I found recently is I get more traffic to my newsletter from LinkedIn than Twitter.

Lenny：最近我发现有趣的是，我从 LinkedIn 获得的时事通讯流量比从 Twitter 获得的流量还要多。

Is that something you think about at all?

你有想过这个问题吗？

Going to LinkedIn instead of Twitter feels so wrong to say, but what's your take there?

去 LinkedIn 而不是 Twitter 的说法感觉很错误，但你对此有何看法？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Yes, if you are career related, LinkedIn will be a lot better.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：是的，如果你与职业相关，LinkedIn 会好很多。

One, it's better because it's not such a cesspool where anything immediately becomes controversial and people fight over it in their mentions.

第一，它更好，因为它不是一个污水池，任何事情都会立即变得有争议，人们会在提及它时争论不休。

Two, because LinkedIn is really underutilized and founders should know this, PMs should know this.

第二，因为 LinkedIn 确实没有得到充分利用，创始人应该知道这一点，PM 也应该知道这一点。

LinkedIn is super underutilized because it gets a ton of eyeballs in time, but most of the content sucks.

LinkedIn 的利用率非常低，因为它能及时吸引大量眼球，但大多数内容都很糟糕。

95% of the content this is not scientific-

95%的内容这都不科学——

Lulu Cheng Meservey: This is my might estimate.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这是我可能的估计。

95% of the content is people congratulating each other on work anniversaries or people saying, "I'm so proud of my team for this thing they did." And then people react out of a sense of friendship and affection or support, but actually genuinely interesting and useful content on LinkedIn is very rare.

95% 的内容是人们在工作周年纪念日互相祝贺，或者人们说：“我为我的团队所做的这件事感到非常自豪。”然后人们的反应是出于友谊、感情或支持，但 LinkedIn 上真正有趣和有用的内容非常罕见。

So the ratio of your competitive set of interesting content versus how much time and attention people spend on there is excellent.

因此，你的竞争性有趣内容与人们花在上面的时间和注意力的比例非常好。

Lenny: That is really good advice.

莱尼：这真是个好建议。

I'm going to throw a fishing line into the pool of examples.

我将把一条钓鱼线扔进示例池中。

You talked about people doing this well, going direct.

你谈到人们在这方面做得很好，直接。

Balaji talking about Ryan Peterson and Elon obviously.

巴拉吉显然在谈论瑞恩·彼得森和埃隆。

Is there anyone else that's just like here check out what they're doing and could be a good model to learn from?

有没有其他人和这里一样，看看他们在做什么，并且可以成为一个值得学习的好榜样？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I think it's really interesting to see what Mike Solana is doing with Pirate Wires.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我认为了解 Mike Solana 在 Pirate Wires 上所做的事情非常有趣。

Here's an example of why it clearly makes sense to have the founder be very active on Twitter because he is his own recruiter and spokesperson.

这里有一个例子，说明为什么创始人在 Twitter 上非常活跃显然是有意义的，因为他是自己的招聘人员和发言人。

So I think the makeup industry actually is at the forefront of this.

所以我认为化妆品行业实际上处于最前沿。

The makeup industry is smarter than all of us in how they use social media and influencers, because they caught on very early on that people don't buy makeup to subscribe to makeup brands, that they do it because a certain celebrity or influencer or Kardashian has this nice looking eyelid and they want their eyelid to look that way.

化妆品行业在如何使用社交媒体和影响者方面比我们所有人都聪明，因为他们很早就意识到人们购买化妆品不是为了订阅化妆品品牌，而是因为某个名人或影响者或卡戴珊有漂亮的眼睑，他们希望自己的眼睑看起来像那样。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And so going back years before the rest of us were talking about going direct, there are makeup companies that would spend $0 on marketing, and minimal efforts on press and pour all of it decreasing the surface area.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以，早在我们其他人谈论直销之前的几年里，就有一些化妆品公司愿意在营销上花费 0 美元，并且在印刷和倾倒方面投入最少的精力，从而减少表面积。

Pour all of it into fostering a small roster of influencers and having them spread the message.

将所有的精力都投入到培养一小批有影响力的人身上，并让他们传播信息。

And so I think watch makeup companies, watch consumer companies, they're doing it right, they speak with a human voice, they speak through human beings and they're fast.

所以我认为手表化妆品公司，手表消费品公司，他们做得对，他们用人的声音说话，他们通过人类说话，而且速度很快。

If there's a trend the same day they will have hopped on the trend...

如果同一天有趋势，他们就会跟随趋势......

within an hour they're on the trend, as opposed to other industries or more traditional companies that take a few days and they route through approvals and then the opportunity's gone.

他们在一小时之内就掌握了趋势，而其他行业或更传统的公司则需要几天时间才能获得批准，然后机会就消失了。

Lenny: What are some makeup companies for people to check out to see what they're doing?

莱尼：有哪些化妆品公司可供人们查看，看看他们在做什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So NYX, N-Y-X, it's a division of L'Oreal.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：NYX，N-Y-X，它是欧莱雅的一个部门。

NYX is wanted the makeup companies that has, as far as I know $0 spent on marketing and all of their dollars and all of their effort spent on paying influencers.

据我所知，NYX 想要的化妆品公司在营销上花费了 0 美元，而他们所有的钱和所有的努力都花在了支付影响力上。

And they really out punched their weight in terms of using humans to deliver a message that contains a call to action and then selling out product.

他们在利用人类传递包含号召性用语的信息，然后销售产品方面确实超出了自己的承受范围。

And the product will be like a normal black eyeliner.

该产品将像普通的黑色眼线笔一样。

It's the most fungible thing you could possibly imagine, and that one eyeliner will be sold out at CBS's across the country for a couple weeks, because they did something right with their social media using a person.

这是你能想象到的最可替代的事情，一支眼线笔将在全国各地的哥伦比亚广播公司(CBS)售罄几周，因为他们利用人在社交媒体上做了一些正确的事情。

Lenny: Just a couple more questions around this going direct concept.

莱尼：关于这个直接的概念还有几个问题。

I don't know if you actually talked about why that's important because I think we talk about this a lot, and I think people may not recognize why people find this so important these days.

我不知道你是否真的谈论过为什么这很重要，因为我认为我们谈论了很多，而且我认为人们可能无法意识到为什么现在人们发现这一点如此重要。

What's the motivation behind that with Balaji and other founders?

Balaji 和其他创始人的动机是什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: There's two reasons it's important, there's the offense and the defense of it.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：它的重要性有两个原因，一是进攻，二是防守。

The defense of it is going back to having the underdog, the insurgency mentality.

对它的辩护又回到了弱势群体、叛乱心态。

If you're trying to do something different that goes against the grain, people are going to attack you.

如果你试图做一些与常规不同的事情，人们就会攻击你。

Not everyone's going to like it.

不是每个人都会喜欢它。

And the point is that not everyone should like it, but you need a way to stand up for yourself because you don't have the big institutions and power structures that are going to do that work for you because you're going against the grain.

关键是，不是每个人都应该喜欢它，但你需要一种方法来维护自己的利益，因为你没有大型机构和权力结构来为你做这件事，因为你违背了原则。

So if you're going to stand up for yourself there's only one way to do it, which is you do it.

因此，如果你要为自己挺身而出，只有一种方法可以做到，那就是你去做。

And so building the audience and the channels and you have to prime the market.

因此，建立受众和渠道，你必须为市场做好准备。

By which I mean if you're a public company, you're priming the market by getting them used to how you convey information to them.

我的意思是，如果你是一家上市公司，你就可以通过让他们习惯你向他们传达信息的方式来启动市场。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: If you're a small startup or a founder, you're priming the market by making your audience aware of how you normally communicate, so that when you do something it's not weird.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果你是一家小型初创公司或创始人，你就是在通过让你的受众了解你通常如何沟通来启动市场，这样当你做某事时就不会感到奇怪。

If you never post and then suddenly you start posting, people are going to think you're having a crisis or something like what is going on?

如果你从不发帖，然后突然开始发帖，人们会认为你遇到了危机或发生了什么事？

They're going to try to read into it.

他们将尝试解读它。

So you have to already have the cadence and the relationships set up so that when you need to draw on them if you're under attack then you can, that's the defense of it.

因此，你必须已经建立起节奏和关系，以便当你受到攻击时需要利用它们时，你就可以，这就是防御。

The offense of it is if you're doing something new and if you're mission driven, and if what you're doing is truly unique and innovative, no one else will be to tell that as well as you.

这样做的缺点是，如果你正在做一些新的事情，如果你是使命驱动的，如果你所做的事情确实是独特和创新的，那么没有人会像你一样告诉你这一点。

The most friendly, sympathetic reporter on Earth could not tell that as well as you because they don't understand it as well as you, and so the onus just falls on you to do it.

地球上最友好、最富有同情心的记者也无法像你一样讲述这一点，因为他们无法像你一样理解这一点，所以你有责任去做这件事。

Lenny: If someone listening is like, "Yep, okay, I fully agree, time to do this." What do you suggest as a next step to starting to build an audience and going direct broadly.

莱尼：如果有人听后说：“是的，好吧，我完全同意，是时候这样做了。”作为开始建立受众群体并广泛直接推广的下一步，您有何建议？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Step one would be assessing what are you good at and what do you enjoy?

Lulu Cheng Meservey：第一步是评估你擅长什么以及喜欢什么？

So that's where you decide, do I like long form writing, or do I enjoy podcasting, or what are my mediums?

所以这就是你决定的地方，我喜欢长篇写作，还是喜欢播客，或者我的媒介是什么？

Step two is setting up your account on those channels.

第二步是在这些渠道上设置您的帐户。

So if you enjoy long form writing then you're going to have to choose, do you do a Substack, do you do Medium or whatever else?

因此，如果你喜欢长篇写作，那么你必须做出选择，你是做 Substack，还是做 Medium 还是其他什么？

There's a objectively right answer on that one.

这个问题有一个客观正确的答案。

But if you are doing short videos you're going to choose are you going to invest in Instagram, or you're going to invest in TikTok, you set that up.

但如果你做短视频，你要选择是投资 Instagram，还是投资 TikTok，你就可以设置了。

And then you start building your audience.

然后你开始培养你的观众。

And when you start if you're actually starting from zero, get some pipeline of talent ready.

当你开始时，如果你实际上是从零开始，请准备好一些人才管道。

Sorry, not pipeline or talent, pipeline of content.

抱歉，不是管道或人才，而是内容管道。

Get it ready, it's the same way as if you're launching a Substack.

准备好，这与启动子堆栈的方式相同。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: If you're launching a Substack you want to get a week or two of posts ready to go, so that out the gate you can build a lot of momentum.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：如果您要启动子堆栈，您需要准备一两周的帖子，这样您就可以建立很大的动力。

With different social networks it actually helps the algorithm if you come out the gate strong and are really regular.

对于不同的社交网络，如果你表现出色并且非常有规律，它实际上会对算法有所帮助。

So TikTok, for example, if you're starting at TikTok with zero followers, you want to get a week or two of solid data just in the pipeline so you can hit it, hit it because the algorithm favors you right as you're starting out because they want you to keep going, so you want to ride that as much as possible.

以 TikTok 为例，如果你刚开始使用 TikTok 时粉丝数为零，那么你希望在管道中获得一两周的可靠数据，这样你就可以击中它，击中它，因为算法在你开始时就对你有利，因为他们希望你继续前进，所以你想尽可能地利用它。

So that's step two is just get yourself ready for launch.

所以第二步就是为发布做好准备。

Don't do one post and wait, get a bunch of posts ready and then boom, boom, boom.

不要发一个帖子然后等待，准备好一堆帖子，然后繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。

And then three is to have an ongoing content strategy, you know who you're going to reach, you know what they care about.

第三是制定持续的内容策略，你知道你将接触到谁，你知道他们关心什么。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: So you have to plan out, "Here's the cadence with which I'm going to talk to them.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：所以你必须计划好，“这是我要与他们交谈的节奏。

Here's how I'm going to do community management and respond to people, and here are the ways where I'm going to do announcements." And you get into a cadence because it's the same as growing a newsletter.

这就是我将如何进行社区管理和回应人们的方式，这就是我将如何发布公告的方式。”你会进入一种节奏，因为这与制作时事通讯相同。

The regularity and the consistency is a big part of growing.

规律性和一致性是成长的重要组成部分。

And so it's the same with audience.

观众也是如此。

A mistake that people make I think is just every once in a while trying to go viral as opposed to just being consistent.

我认为人们犯的一个错误只是偶尔试图传播病毒，而不是保持一致。

And then some posts do better than others organically, but that's the way to do it.

然后有些帖子有机地比其他帖子做得更好，但这就是做到这一点的方法。

I don't live that.

我不这样生活。

I'm not a good example because I'm so self-loathing about being on Twitter I will go away for one or two weeks and do nothing, and then I'll come in with a bunch of posts in one day.

我不是一个很好的例子，因为我对在推特上感到非常自我厌恶，我会离开一两个星期，什么也不做，然后有一天我会带着一堆帖子进来。

It's not a best practice.

这不是最佳实践。

It's not the way you're supposed to do it.

这不是你应该做的事。

Ideally, you're just there every day saying something and then it builds over time.

理想情况下，你每天都在那里说一些话，然后随着时间的推移，它就会逐渐形成。

Lenny: I'm actually an example of trying to focus on consistent non-viral content and it's worked out.

莱尼：我实际上是一个尝试专注于一致的非病毒式内容的例子，而且它已经成功了。

Lenny: It's worked out.

莱尼：已经解决了。

It's worked out so far, but it's interesting to see how different people act and how it's like I'm trying to go viral every tweet, every post and that is hard.

到目前为止，一切都已经解决了，但有趣的是，看到不同的人如何行动，以及我如何努力让每条推文、每一篇帖子都像病毒一样传播，这很困难。

And it's also just like people can tell you're just trying to create some viral thing and no one cares.

这也就像人们可以告诉你你只是想创造一些病毒式的东西而没有人在乎。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And it's very obvious when you're just trying to go viral for the sake of it and you don't have a real message.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：当你只是为了病毒式传播而没有传达真正的信息时，这一点非常明显。

It's like the post when people screenshot the iPhone six digit security code and they say best feature apple's ever built.

这就像人们截取 iPhone 六位数安全代码的帖子，并说这是苹果有史以来打造的最佳功能。

A few people did that, and now I've seen it probably dozens of times.

有几个人这样做过，现在我可能已经看过几十次了。

And it doesn't even help to get you followers because that's not something where people say, "Only this person could uniquely give me this kind of content in the future." If you're going to get followers with a one-off joke, it has to be an incredibly hilarious one-off joke where they say, "This person is going to keep entertaining me." But with these kind of viral baits, I don't think it's even that effective.

它甚至没有帮助你获得关注者，因为人们不会说“只有这个人才能在未来给我提供这种内容”。如果你想用一个一次性笑话来吸引追随者，那么它必须是一个非常搞笑的一次性笑话，他们会说：“这个人会继续让我开心。”但对于这些病毒诱饵，我认为它甚至没有那么有效。

Lenny: And also what I find if something does go viral, whatever the correct term is and then life goes on, nothing's going to significantly...

莱尼：我发现，如果某件事确实像病毒一样传播开来，无论正确的术语是什么，然后生活继续下去，没有什么会产生重大影响......

that's just one thing, and then you have to do it again and again.

这只是一件事，然后你必须一次又一次地做。

That's where people don't realize like, "Oh, I went viral.

这就是人们没有意识到的地方，“哦，我走红了。

I'm done.

我完成了。

My life is good now." Nothing's going to really change most often, and you have to do it again and again.

我现在的生活很好。”大多数情况下，什么都不会真正改变，你必须一次又一次地这样做。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I think that's true.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我认为确实如此。

One thing that I've noticed about your audience, Lenny, is that it's the right audience.

莱尼，我注意到你的观众的一件事是，他们是正确的观众。

It's the people who find value in what you do, and they're in the right place and there's a match.

是那些在你所做的事情中发现价值的人，他们处于正确的位置并且匹配。

Sometimes in the effort to just gain followers for the sake of it or a go viral for the sake of it, you end up with a mismatch of the audience.

有时，为了获得粉丝或为了病毒式传播，最终会导致受众不匹配。

You had this viral hamster tweet, and now they're all here expecting hamster content, and they're not engaging with you, you're not bringing value to them.

你有这条病毒式的仓鼠推文，现在他们都在这里期待仓鼠内容，但他们没有与你互动，你没有给他们带来价值。

It's just making the number go up, which is not that meaningful.

只是让数字上升，没有多大意义。

So one example of this is there's all these threads about how to just grow on Twitter for no reason, just grow for the sake of growing.

举个例子，Twitter 上有很多关于如何无缘无故地成长的话题，只是为了成长而成长。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: And it's a lot of generic advice of make sure that you bullet point out the 10 things.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：这是很多通用建议，请确保您重点指出 10 件事。

But it's always pablum of make sure that you value your relationships, and make time for yourself.

但确保你重视人际关系并为自己腾出时间总是很重要的。

And things that are not enriching people's lives they get a lot of likes that are low value likes from random people about the internet.

对于那些不能丰富人们生活的事物，他们会从互联网上随机的人那里得到很多低价值的喜欢。

But I don't think that they're deepening a relationship with a meaningful audience, and I don't think that they're really capturing the respect and admiration of their peers.

但我不认为他们正在加深与有意义的观众的关系，我也不认为他们真正赢得了同龄人的尊重和钦佩。

So I think it's just important to consider what trade-offs people make in their efforts to grow.

因此，我认为重要的是要考虑人们在努力成长时所做的权衡。

Lenny: Well, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: First question.

莱尼：第一个问题。

Great.

伟大的。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I recommend Gates of Fire, it comes off the Marine Commandants Reading List, it's on there perennially.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我推荐《火之门》，它来自海军陆战队指挥官的阅读清单，它常年在那里。

It is about the Battle of Thermopylae, it's the 300 Spartans, but it's the whole backstory.

这是关于温泉关之战的，是斯巴达三百人，但它是整个背景故事。

And if you get into it's about leadership, it's about courage, it's about creativity, and it's really well-written, so that's one that I recommend a lot.

如果你读的是关于领导力、勇气、创造力的书，而且它写得很好，所以这是我经常推荐的一本。

Lenny: What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I've been watching The Last Of Us, like everybody on Earth.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：像地球上的每个人一样，我一直在看《最后生还者》。

I've been watching it both for entertainment and for work, because it's really interesting to see how the show drives sales of the video games, and how you can use that to make the whole of the sales greater than the sum of its parts.

我观看它既是为了娱乐，也是为了工作，因为看到该节目如何推动视频游戏的销售，以及如何利用它来使整体销售大于各个部分的销售总和，这真的很有趣。

So I'm watching that really carefully.

所以我非常仔细地观察这一点。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

We have a drinking game now.

我们现在有一个喝酒游戏。

Every time someone says Last of us that's a new thing because it's starting to come up a lot, so everyone enjoy your drink.

每当有人说“最后的我们”时，这都是一个新事物，因为它开始出现很多，所以每个人都喜欢你的饮料。

Favorite interview question you like to ask?

您最喜欢问的面试问题是？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I like to ask people what they've been reading too.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我也喜欢问人们读过什么。

It's a good way to get good book recommendations.

这是获得好书推荐的好方法。

It's also a good way to see where their head's at when they're not working.

这也是了解他们不工作时的想法的好方法。

Lenny: Favorite SaaS products that you use day-to-day and bonus points for something that is new or interesting that you've recently discovered?

Lenny：您日常使用的最喜欢的 SaaS 产品以及您最近发现的新的或有趣的东西的奖励积分？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: I don't know that this is new or novel because I use Notion for almost everything, and I really like the new AI that they've built into it.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：我不知道这是新的还是新颖的，因为我几乎在所有事情上都使用 Notion，而且我真的很喜欢他们内置的新人工智能。

I also have been using Lex, which is Nathan Baschez startup, where it's like the AI writing editor that you've probably seen.

我也一直在使用 Lex，这是 Nathan Baschez 的初创公司，它就像你可能见过的人工智能写作编辑器。

I'm trying to think if there's anything that I use that other people don't.

我正在思考是否有什么东西是我用的而其他人不用的。

I don't think I'm terribly original in that sense.

从这个意义上说，我认为我并不是很有创意。

I use a lot of Microsoft Excel, which I think is controversial.

我经常使用 Microsoft Excel，我认为这是有争议的。

Lenny: That is, wow, that's cool, but I get it.

莱尼：也就是说，哇，这很酷，但我明白了。

That's when you know you're doing serious work, you got to accelerate.

当你知道你正在做认真的工作时，你必须加速。

Lenny: Final question, best tip for someone trying to get attention for their product, take away tip, best takeaway tip.

莱尼：最后一个问题，对于那些试图让他们的产品引起关注的人来说最好的建议，外卖小费，最好的外卖小费。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Give it away for free to the right people.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：免费赠送给合适的人。

If you can choose the people who are going to love it, look at the Venn diagram of people who are going to be obsessed with this product.

如果您可以选择会喜欢它的人，请查看会痴迷于该产品的人的维恩图。

And people who have a large following among the other people that you want to get to, whoever falls into that sliver of the Venn diagram shower them with free product.

在你想要接触的其他人中拥有大量追随者的人，无论谁属于维恩图的一小部分，都会向他们提供免费产品。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Lulu, I think this conversation is going to lead to a lot more people going direct, taking risks and ideas spreading.

露露，我认为这次对话将导致更多的人直接行动，承担风险并传播想法。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions where can folks find you online if they want to learn more and reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想了解更多信息并联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Lulu Cheng Meservey: People can find me at getflack.com, that's where I write down my ideas, hopefully more frequently in the future than in the past.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：人们可以在 getflack.com 上找到我，我在那里写下了我的想法，希望将来比过去更频繁地写下我​​的想法。

But that's where they can find some of this stuff if they're interested.

但如果他们感兴趣的话，他们可以在那里找到一些东西。

How can listeners be helpful to me is to give me feedback.

听众如何对我有帮助就是给我反馈。

I'm learning on the job.

我在工作中学习。

I don't think that there's anyone alive who's an expert in communicating in this crazy environment that we have now.

我认为在我们现在这个疯狂的环境中，没有人是沟通方面的专家。

I think we're all crossing the river by feeling the stones, and so your listeners have gone through this in many different ways.

我认为我们都是摸着石头过河，所以你们的听众已经以多种不同的方式经历了这一过程。

And I hope that if they have new ideas of feedback or objections, that they'll email me through that website or on Twitter and let me know what they think.

我希望，如果他们有新的反馈想法或反对意见，他们会通过该网站或 Twitter 给我发电子邮件，让我知道他们的想法。

Lenny: Amazing and its get flack.com.

Lenny：太棒了，它可以访问 flack.com。

Lenny: We'll link to it in the show notes.

莱尼：我们会在演出笔记中链接到它。

Lenny: Lulu, thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom with us.

莱尼：露露，谢谢你来到这里与我们分享你的智慧。

Lulu Cheng Meservey: Thank you, Lenny, appreciate it.

Lulu Cheng Meservey：谢谢你，Lenny，非常感谢。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。