Leveraging growth advisors, mastering SEO, and honing your craft | Luc Levesque (Shopify, Meta)
Luc Levesque: We talk about the 10X engineer and we don't really talk about the 10X growth advisor or 10X growth person, but the same dynamic applies.
Luc Levesque：我们谈论的是 10 倍工程师，我们并没有真正谈论 10 倍增长顾问或 10 倍增长人员，但同样的动态也适用。
You could argue it applies even more because the right growth advisor can have literally company changing impact.
你可能会说它更适用，因为正确的成长顾问可以真正改变公司的影响。
Something I've experienced several times in hindsight when you're like, "Okay, here's the needle in the haystack." And then it's implemented and you can see hundreds of percentages, sometimes over a thousand percent lift when you get it right.
事后看来，我曾多次经历过这样的事情，当时你会说：“好吧，这是大海捞针。”然后实施后，如果正确的话，您可以看到数百％的提升，有时甚至超过一千％。
It's one of those weird disciplines where the right person at the right time can literally say a sentence that changes the trajectory of your company.
这是一种奇怪的学科，正确的人在正确的时间可以说出一句话来改变公司的发展轨迹。
You can't say that for a lot of different disciplines, but this is one of them.
对于许多不同的学科你不能这么说，但这就是其中之一。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。
Today my guest is Luc Levesque.
今天我的嘉宾是吕克·莱维斯克。
Luc is currently the chief growth officer at Shopify.
Luc 目前担任 Shopify 的首席增长官。
Before this, he was recruited personally by Mark Zuckerberg to help grow Facebook Messenger, Instagram and WhatsApp.
在此之前，他曾被马克·扎克伯格亲自招募，帮助发展 Facebook Messenger、Instagram 和 WhatsApp。
He's also VP of Growth and a GM at Tripadvisor.
他还是 Tripadvisor 的增长副总裁和总经理。
He's also been a growth advisor to companies like Twitter, Pinterest, Patreon, Thumbtack, and Canva.
他还是 Twitter、Pinterest、Patreon、Thumbtack 和 Canva 等公司的发展顾问。
Lenny: In our conversation, Luc shares advice on how and when to think about getting a growth advisor, including how to structure the relationship and what to look for in an advisor.
莱尼：在我们的谈话中，卢克分享了如何以及何时考虑聘请成长顾问的建议，包括如何构建关系以及寻找顾问的条件。
We also spent a ton of time on SEO, how to think about this as a growth channel, who it's well suited for, and how everything is about to change in SEO with Bard and ChatGPT.
我们还花了很多时间在 SEO 上，如何将其视为增长渠道，它非常适合谁，以及 Bard 和 ChatGPT 的 SEO 中的一切将如何改变。
Plus Luc shares a ton of really interesting advice around the value of self-reflection, building routines, cold plunges, also a couple of amazing stories about working with Zuck and what you learned from him.
另外，Luc 分享了很多关于自我反思、建立例程、冷跳的价值的非常有趣的建议，还有一些关于与 Zuck 合作的精彩故事以及你从他身上学到的东西。
This is such an insight rich episode and I know you'll love it.
这是一个见解丰富的剧集，我知道你会喜欢它。
With that, I bring you Luc Levesque after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了吕克·莱维斯克 (Luc Levesque)。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel.
Lenny：这一集是由 Mixpanel 为您带来的。
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以随着您的成长而扩展的合理价格，深入了解您的用户在渠道每个阶段的行为。
Mixpanel gives you quick answers about your users from awareness to acquisition through retention.
Mixpanel 为您提供有关用户从认知到获取再到保留的快速答案。
And by capturing website activity, ad data, and multi-touch attribution right in Mixpanel, you can improve every aspect of the full user funnel.
通过在 Mixpanel 中捕获网站活动、广告数据和多点触控归因，您可以改进整个用户渠道的各个方面。
Powered by first party behavioral data instead of third party cookies, Mixpanel is built to be more powerful and easier to use than Google Analytics.
Mixpanel 由第一方行为数据而非第三方 cookie 提供支持，比 Google Analytics 更强大且更易于使用。
Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.
访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny，探索适合各种规模团队的计划并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。
And while you're at it, they're also hiring.
当你在做这件事的时候，他们也在招聘。
So check it out at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.
请访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny 进行查看。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Attio, a new type of CRM that's powerful, flexible, and built around your data.
Lenny：本集由 Attio 为您带来，Attio 是一种新型 CRM，功能强大、灵活且围绕您的数据构建。
Traditional CRMs were built for a different era with totally different speed, scale, and data demands.
传统的 CRM 是为不同的时代而构建的，具有完全不同的速度、规模和数据需求。
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阿蒂奥则不同。
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它允许您快速构建与您独特的工作流程和数据结构相匹配的 CRM。
Within minutes of connecting your email and calendar, you'll have a CRM that's already set up complete with customer profiles and automatic data enrichment.
连接电子邮件和日历后几分钟内，您将拥有一个已设置完整的 CRM，其中包含客户资料和自动数据充实。
You'll also have real-time dynamic reporting at your fingertips.
您还可以轻松获得实时动态报告。
No more slow deployments, outdated user experiences, or tedious manual data input.
不再有缓慢的部署、过时的用户体验或繁琐的手动数据输入。
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借助 Attio，无论您的业务模式或公司处于什么阶段，您都可以动态构建和调整您的 CRM。
Attio is the CRM for startups.
Attio 是初创公司的 CRM。
Get started today and get 15% off your first year at attio.com/lenny.
今天就开始吧，第一年可享受 15% 的折扣，请访问 attio.com/lenny。
That's A-T-T-I-O.com/lenny.
那是 A-T-T-I-O.com/lenny。
Lenny: It's good to see you too.
莱尼：很高兴见到你。
I want to start with a story that you shared once when we were hanging out in the past and something that I'll never forget, and it's about the time that you just joined Facebook and apparently you had some kind of big presentation you had to give to the entire company or the executive staff.
我想从我们过去一起出去玩时您分享的一个故事开始，这是我永远不会忘记的事情，它是关于您刚刚加入 Facebook 的时候，显然您需要向整个公司或管理人员进行某种大型演示。
And then I just love the way it kind of unfolded and it kind of gives you a glimpse into what it's like to work with Zuck and at Facebook.
然后我就是喜欢它的展开方式，它让你了解与扎克伯格以及在 Facebook 合作的感觉。
Can you share that story if that rings a bell?
如果这听起来很有趣，你能分享一下这个故事吗？
Luc Levesque: If remember the story, well, basically I had just started at Facebook about...
Luc Levesque：如果还记得这个故事的话，基本上我刚开始在 Facebook 工作时是关于……
I'll use those two interchangeably.
我将交替使用这两个。
I remember it as Facebook and I always will.
我记得它是 Facebook，而且永远都会。
I was three months in and was working on a new area for me.
我在那里呆了三个月，正在为我的一个新领域工作。
So I came in, started putting together our thoughts on a strategy and was asked to do a presentation in front of the company with Mark on the strategy.
所以我进来了，开始整理我们对战略的想法，并被要求在公司面前与马克一起就该战略进行演示。
So I whipped up a draft strategy, put together some plots and plans, presented in front of the company and went well.
因此，我起草了一份战略草案，整理了一些情节和计划，并向公司展示，进展顺利。
And then every six months there's something called the Team Review of Facebook and basically product area leads will go in and present their strategy, how it's going.
然后每六个月就会有一次所谓的 Facebook 团队审查，基本上产品领域的负责人会介入并介绍他们的策略以及进展情况。
Again, I just joined three months before, so I walk in no idea what to expect.
再说一次，我三个月前才加入，所以我走进来时不知道会发生什么。
I am sitting at a table.
我坐在一张桌子旁。
You can kind of envision it's a big room, a really big room with a bunch of tables set up in a big square with a little microphone.
你可以想象这是一个大房间，一个非常大的房间，在一个大广场上摆着一堆桌子，还有一个小麦克风。
Luc Levesque: So I sit in there, there's Mark and all the executives sitting on the other side.
Luc Levesque：所以我坐在那儿，马克和所有高管坐在另一边。
And I sit down and it's quiet for what felt like five minutes.
我坐下来，感觉安静了大约五分钟。
I'm sure it was not, but it was quiet for a while, just sitting there waiting for what's going to happen now.
我确信不是，但它安静了一会儿，只是坐在那里等待现在要发生的事情。
And at some point Mark kind looks over, says, "Hey, we saw your presentation, saw your strategy.
在某个时刻，马克·恩德看了过来，说道：“嘿，我们看到了你的演示，看到了你的策略。
Now when are we going to start seeing results?" And that was my introduction to Facebook.
现在我们什么时候才能开始看到结果？”这就是我对 Facebook 的介绍。
It was kind of my introduction to working with Mark and was a pretty kind of intense thing to go through.
这是我与马克合作的开始，也是一件非常紧张的事情。
Again, I just joined.
再说一遍，我刚刚加入。
The strategy was very much a draft at that point, but I think what it highlights is something that Facebook does really, really well, which you get very quickly when you join Facebook and it's why they're such an execution machine and can build a lot of great product.
当时该战略还只是一个草案，但我认为它强调的是 Facebook 做得非常非常好的事情，当你加入 Facebook 时你很快就能明白这一点，这就是为什么他们是这样一个执行机器，可以构建很多伟大的产品。
It's because they focus exclusively on that magic word, which is impact.
这是因为他们只关注那个神奇的词，那就是影响力。
Luc Levesque: And that was kind of my first introduction to working with Mark and just that laser focus on, "All right, got it.
吕克·莱维斯克：这是我第一次与马克合作，我的注意力集中在“好吧，明白了。
Now when are we going to start seeing impact and kind of moving from there?" So it's something that is very much in the culture there and something that is so important.
现在我们什么时候才能开始看到影响并从那里开始采取行动？”所以这是那里文化中非常重要的事情。
It's something of course that we focus on a lot at Shopify, but it's that difference between, "I don't care how hard you've worked.
当然，这是我们在 Shopify 非常关注的事情，但这就是“我不在乎你工作有多努力。
I don't care what you're working on, what the activities are.
我不在乎你在做什么，有什么活动。
What are the outcomes?
结果如何？
What is the impact you're having?" I actually really love that word impact and focusing on it because it's vague enough that it covers off any work that is impactful towards the mission and it's precise enough to know what does that mean when you say, "Are you having impact?
你的影响力有多大？”事实上，我真的很喜欢“影响力”这个词，并专注于它，因为它足够模糊，它涵盖了任何对使命有影响力的工作，而且它足够精确，可以知道当你说“你有影响力吗？”时这意味着什么。
Or what is the impact we're having?" So it's a great way to approach things.
或者说我们正在产生什么影响？”所以这是处理事情的好方法。
That was my first experience there within a few months.
这是我几个月内第一次在那里经历。
And yeah, we jumped in and started focusing on having a lot of impact from there.
是的，我们介入并开始专注于从那里产生很大的影响。
Lenny: I love that story.
莱尼：我喜欢这个故事。
There's a couple things there.
那里有几件事。
One is, if I were in your shoes, I'd poop my pants sitting there for five minutes waiting for what do you guys-
一是，如果我处于你们的处境，我会拉裤子坐在那里五分钟，等着你们做什么——
Luc Levesque: That did not happen.
吕克·莱维斯克：那没有发生。
I had a report.
我有一份报告。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
How did it go?
进展如何？
How did you deal with it?
你是怎么处理的？
Or I guess how did you respond?
或者我猜你是怎么回应的？
Luc Levesque: Well, we had, funny enough, already started having impact, so I was able to at least respond with, "Hey, we've kind of already started in a few ways" and walk through where we were having impact and just focus on the strategy, what our plans forward were and where we wanted to go from there.
Luc Levesque：嗯，有趣的是，我们已经开始产生影响，所以我至少能够回应，“嘿，我们已经在一些方面开始了”，并介绍我们正在产生影响的地方，只关注战略、我们的未来计划是什么以及我们想要从那里走向何方。
So I think that's how I responded.
所以我想这就是我的回应。
Lenny: Okay, great work.
莱尼：好的，干得好。
So something I've started doing actually on this podcast is I've started to keep a little Post-it of, here it is, of themes that continue to recur across companies that are most successful.
因此，我在这个播客上实际上开始做的事情是，我开始保留一些便利贴，这里就是那些在最成功的公司中不断重复出现的主题。
And impact comes...
影响来了...
It's number one on my Post-it here, is just impact comes up so often as something that the best companies continue to come back to and focus on and put a lot of emphasis on.
这是我的便利贴上的第一条，就是影响力经常出现，最好的公司会继续回来关注并重点关注。
I guess I don't know what the question is exactly, but is that just what you find in the work that you do with all the companies you work with?
我想我不知道问题到底是什么，但这就是你在与你合作的所有公司所做的工作中发现的吗？
Just how important it's to come back to impact as maybe the primary thing?
重新发挥影响力作为首要任务究竟有多重要？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I mean I think it's easy for a lot of leaders and companies to get caught up in how hard are people working, what did they do, and recognizing and rewarding activity.
Luc Levesque：是的，我的意思是，我认为很多领导者和公司很容易关注人们工作的努力程度、他们做了什么以及认可和奖励活动。
I mean, everybody wants to have impact.
我的意思是，每个人都想产生影响。
The companies that truly focus on that are the ones that break through and really make a lot of progress towards the mission.
真正专注于这一点的公司是那些能够突破并真正在实现使命方面取得很大进展的公司。
So that seems obvious I think when I say it out loud, but being in that culture and having it really ingrained in everything you do whether it's performance reviews or strategies or these reviews with the executive team, it all gravitates around impact.
因此，我认为当我大声说出来时，这似乎是显而易见的，但在这种文化中，并将其真正根植于你所做的每一件事中，无论是绩效评估、策略还是与执行团队的这些评估，这一切都围绕着影响力。
And I think it's that laser focus on it that matters so much.
我认为对它的高度关注才是最重要的。
But I mean I've certainly seen it going other ways where it's more about working long hours.
但我的意思是，我确实看到了其他方式，更多的是长时间工作。
And certainly there's a correlation, to be clear, between working hard and impact, but I find it's just such a precise way to think about how people are performing or what you're doing in terms of is your strategy working?
当然，需要明确的是，努力工作和影响力之间存在相关性，但我发现这是一种精确的方式来思考人们的表现或你正在做的事情是否有效？
Is the direction you're moving in having the intended outcomes that you want?
您前进的方向是否能达到您想要的预期结果？
And yeah, I do think it's all about that.
是的，我确实认为这就是全部。
Luc Levesque: Being a growth leader where everything's so measurable, impact is something that can be very clearly measured and you know whether you have it or not.
Luc Levesque：作为一个增长型领导者，一切都是可以衡量的，影响力是可以非常清晰地衡量的，你知道自己是否拥有它。
So the most important thing that we work on constantly is reviewing what's our strategy, what are we working on?
因此，我们不断努力的最重要的事情是回顾我们的战略是什么，我们正在做什么？
Is that driving towards the top level north star outcome we want?
这是否正在朝着我们想要的顶级北极星结果迈进？
Is that having the impact?
有这样的影响吗？
And then basically doing everything around that singular north star.
然后基本上围绕那颗奇异的北极星做所有事情。
So it's very, very important.
所以这非常非常重要。
I think it's more profound than it might seem just from the outside.
我认为它比表面上看起来更深刻。
But if you've worked in different companies, you've probably experienced different versions of this too.
但如果你在不同的公司工作过，你可能也经历过不同的版本。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I want to spend more time on this, but before we move on, you also have another Zuck story.
我想花更多的时间在这上面，但在我们继续之前，你还有另一个扎克的故事。
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Zuck recruited you personally to join Facebook/Meta.
如果我错了，请纠正我，但扎克亲自招募你加入 Facebook/Meta。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
And then if true, what was that like to be recruited by Zuck personally?
如果这是真的，被扎克亲自招募是什么感觉？
Luc Levesque: It was an interesting experience, very intense, but also one of the reasons for it was I was living in Canada and my family was there and I had some strong personal reasons why I couldn't leave Canada.
Luc Levesque：这是一次有趣的经历，非常紧张，但也是原因之一是我住在加拿大，我的家人在那里，我有一些强烈的个人原因为什么我不能离开加拿大。
But yeah, we had a lot of discussions with Mark.
但是，是的，我们与马克进行了很多讨论。
I won't get into the micro details of it, that's more Mark's story to tell than mine.
我不会深入讨论它的微观细节，这更多是马克的故事而不是我的故事。
But a few takeaways from going through that experience.
但从这次经历中我们得到了一些收获。
As a leader, hiring is the most important thing as we all know.
众所周知，作为领导者，招聘是最重要的事情。
It's a craft and a skill that I'm always working on refining.
这是我一直在努力完善的一门手艺和一项技能。
I have my own playbook that I'm constantly tweaking, testing out different approaches, trying to find the best talent and assessing them and trying to close them and bringing them on board.
我有自己的剧本，我会不断调整，测试不同的方法，试图找到最好的人才并评估他们，并试图吸引他们并让他们加入。
So I learned a lot through that experience with Mark.
所以我通过与马克的经历学到了很多东西。
Luc Levesque: A couple things that stood out were the first one would be that Mark really involved the entire executive team.
Luc Levesque：有几件事很突出，第一件事是马克真正让整个执行团队参与其中。
It wasn't just me talking to recruiting or talent or HR or just Mark, it was the entire executive team.
不仅仅是我在与招聘、人才、人力资源或马克交谈，还有整个管理团队。
That's something that I think a lot of leaders don't take advantage of.
我认为很多领导者都没有利用这一点。
I've seen leaders, I've certainly done this at times where you go it alone or you're working with recruiting, but the reality is all the leaders, all the execs in the company know how important it's to bring in talent and they're always more than happy to help.
我见过领导者，当你独自一人或在招聘时，我当然会这样做，但现实是所有的领导者，公司的所有高管都知道引进人才的重要性，他们总是非常乐意提供帮助。
So that's something that I think more leaders should do is really recruit all of their peers and their leaders in the company to help close.
因此，我认为更多的领导者应该做的就是真正招募公司中的所有同事和领导者来帮助完成任务。
And that's certainly something that happened when I was in discussions with Mark and Facebook about joining.
这肯定是我与 Mark 和 Facebook 讨论加入事宜时发生的事情。
Luc Levesque: The second one, which I had I suppose never experienced before, was that they made it very personal.
Luc Levesque：第二个问题，我想我以前从未经历过，是他们让它变得非常个性化。
I had these reasons why I couldn't leave.
我有这些理由让我无法离开。
So initially I was excited by the opportunity, but I couldn't see myself moving to California for personal reasons.
因此，最初我对这个机会感到很兴奋，但由于个人原因，我不认为自己会搬到加利福尼亚。
And through discussions, Mark basically involved my wife, involved my spouse in this, Andrea.
通过讨论，马克基本上让我的妻子、我的配偶安德里亚也参与其中。
We flew down, had dinner with him and Priscilla, his wife.
我们飞下来，与他和他的妻子普里西拉共进晚餐。
Andrea had ended up meeting with many of the executives at Facebook and really talking through what was holding us back, why we couldn't come, potential options and ideas for how we could come down.
安德里亚最终与 Facebook 的许多高管进行了会面，并真正讨论了阻碍我们的因素、我们不能来的原因、潜在的选择以及我们如何解决问题的想法。
Luc Levesque: But involving somebody's spouse and family I think is a really good idea because it's a very personal decision to change company.
Luc Levesque：但我认为让某人的配偶和家人参与进来是一个非常好的主意，因为更换公司是一个非常个人的决定。
It involves more than just that person you're talking to, it involves the whole family.
它不仅仅涉及与你交谈的那个人，还涉及整个家庭。
So that was something that I think is an important thing to have in your kind of playbook for hiring, is really think about the whole person's family and involve them if you can.
因此，我认为，在招聘手册中，这一点非常重要，真正考虑到整个人的家庭，并尽可能让他们参与进来。
In fact, Toby did this as well at Shopify.
事实上，Toby 在 Shopify 也这么做了。
He flew down here with Fiona and we had breakfast with Andrea and them and reviewed a few offers when I joined Shopify.
他和 Fiona 一起飞到这里，我们和 Andrea 以及他们一起吃早餐，并在我加入 Shopify 时查看了一些优惠。
Luc Levesque: And then the third thing is just to be absolutely relentless and don't give up and don't let momentum drop.
Luc Levesque：第三件事就是要绝对坚持不懈，不要放弃，不要让势头下降。
It took seven months for me to go from, "This is amazing, exciting, but there's no way I can make this work" to, "Okay, let's move to Palo Alto." And Mark, the execs, a variety of leaders there were in discussions for months and months and months and never letting the momentum die.
我花了七个月的时间才从“这太棒了，令人兴奋，但我无法完成这项工作”到“好吧，我们搬到帕洛阿尔托吧”。马克、高管们以及各种领导人进行了数月的讨论，并且从未让这种势头消退。
That's something that I think is really important.
我认为这非常重要。
No doesn't necessarily mean no, and in this case it definitely wasn't the case.
“不”并不一定意味着“不”，在这种情况下，情况绝对不是这样。
I had the same experience with Toby at Shopify where we've been talking about working together for over 10 years now.
我和 Shopify 的 Toby 也有过同样的经历，我们已经谈论了 10 多年的合作。
And then finally the timing was right and I was able to join the company.
最后时机成熟，我得以加入这家公司。
Luc Levesque: So just be relentless, involve the family, involve the spouse if you can, and recruit some help from other executives in the company.
Luc Levesque：所以要坚持不懈，让家人参与进来，如果可以的话让配偶参与进来，并从公司其他高管那里寻求帮助。
Those were some of the things that stood out through my experience.
这些是我的经历中突出的一些事情。
But yeah, it was a pretty wild time in my life.
但是，是的，那是我生命中一段非常疯狂的时光。
Lenny: Relentless is actually another word.
莱尼：“无情”实际上是另一个词。
I wasn't necessarily I'm supposed to yet, but I feel like it's another trend to cross.
我还不一定应该这样做，但我觉得这是另一种需要跨越的趋势。
The most impactful and successful founders is just this like, "I will not give up.
最有影响力和最成功的创始人就是这样的，“我不会放弃。
I will keep at it."
我会坚持下去。”
Lenny: And so that's a really interesting example of that in action.
莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的实际例子。
I was going to talk about this later, but maybe it's a good time to talk about it now, which is around hiring.
我本来打算稍后再讨论这个问题，但也许现在是讨论这个问题的好时机，因为这是关于招聘的。
So you talked about you have this playbook for how to hire.
所以你谈到你有一本关于如何招聘的手册。
You mentioned to me that you kind of find that as you scale as a leader, hiring ends up being like the most important skill maybe, maybe one of the most important skills.
您向我提到，您发现，随着您成为领导者，招聘最终可能成为最重要的技能，也许是最重要的技能之一。
I'd love to hear your take on just what you found about hiring as you've grown as a product leader.
我很想听听您在成长为产品领导者过程中对招聘的看法。
Luc Levesque: Well, I think you reach a point in your career where you realize that hiring is the skill you now need to become world-class at because you're not no longer doing the work yourself.
Luc Levesque：嗯，我认为你在职业生涯中达到了一个阶段，你意识到招聘是你现在成为世界一流的技能，因为你不再需要自己做这项工作。
You're still of course involved and doing some of the work and getting your hands dirty, but the bulk of your team's success now will be the quality of the hires you make and you truly need to be world-class at that.
当然，你仍然会参与其中，做一些工作并亲自动手，但你的团队现在的成功大部分将取决于你所聘用的员工的质量，而你确实需要在这方面达到世界一流的水平。
So yeah, I built this playbook out.
是的，我编写了这本剧本。
I was in Canada in Ottawa when I sold that company, Tripadvisor, and really started growing my team and becoming more Leaning into leadership at the time through that experience.
当我出售 Tripadvisor 公司时，我正在加拿大渥太华，并通过这段经历真正开始发展我的团队，并变得更加倾向于当时的领导力。
Luc Levesque: One of the benefits of being in Ottawa and kind of off the grid if you will, is it's a curse and a benefit as that you don't have a ton of people you can learn from.
Luc Levesque：在渥太华的好处之一是，如果你愿意的话，有点脱离电网，这是一种诅咒，也是一种好处，因为你没有很多可以向你学习的人。
So it does mean you need to go to first principles and think things through from the ground up.
因此，这确实意味着您需要遵循首要原则并从头开始思考问题。
It takes a little longer, but you come up with your own playbooks on how to do things.
这需要更长的时间，但你会想出自己的做事手册。
I think you've seen my blueprint, which is a good example of that where I have this blueprint I put together.
我想你已经看到了我的蓝图，这是我整理的蓝图的一个很好的例子。
When new people join the team, I show them my blueprint, which is basically a list of my quirks so we can really quickly align.
当新人加入团队时，我会向他们展示我的蓝图，这基本上是我的怪癖列表，这样我们就可以真正快速地协调一致。
That's something that just being in Ottawa and trying to figure out how to be a leader and avoid mistakes, I was like, "Wouldn't it be nice if you had a blueprint?
这就是在渥太华并试图找出如何成为领导者并避免错误的事情，我当时想，“如果你有一个蓝图不是很好吗？
When somebody joined, you can just tell them all of your quirks and you can just quickly calibrate on how it is to work together versus through awkward long discussions over the course of a year."
当有人加入时，你可以告诉他们你所有的怪癖，然后你就可以快速调整如何一起工作，而不是在一年的时间里进行尴尬的长时间讨论。”
Luc Levesque: My hiring playbook's a similar thing.
Luc Levesque：我的招聘策略也是类似的。
I think of it in three different chapters, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，我会在三个不同的章节中思考它。
There's finding talent, assessing talent, and closing talent.
包括发现人才、评估人才和关闭人才。
In terms of finding talent, I do believe that the best predictor of future performance is past performance.
在寻找人才方面，我确实相信未来绩效的最佳预测因素是过去的绩效。
So I'm looking for what I call signs of excellence.
所以我正在寻找我所说的卓越标志。
So I want to know the top people generally have done multiple amazing things in their life, repeated success, not just once.
所以我想知道顶尖的人在他们的一生中一般都做过很多令人惊奇的事情，屡次成功，而不仅仅是一次。
Maybe it was work related, maybe not work related.
也许与工作有关，也许与工作无关。
But generally speaking, if you think back to the stars you've worked with, they've done some amazing things.
但总的来说，如果你回想一下与你合作过的明星，他们做了一些令人惊奇的事情。
And that's why I always start when I interview or when I chat with people, I started talking about just trying to understand, "What has been your path?
这就是为什么当我采访或与人聊天时，我总是开始谈论只是试图理解，“你的道路是什么？
What have you done professionally and not professionally?" And generally, stars going to stand out.
你做了什么专业的事和不专业的事？”一般来说，明星都会脱颖而出。
It's very rare that there's not something obvious that comes through.
很少有没有明显的事情发生。
Luc Levesque: So for myself personally, I'm looking for kind of three different signs of excellence to tell me that it doesn't have to be three.
Luc Levesque：所以就我个人而言，我正在寻找三种不同的卓越标志来告诉我，它不一定是三个。
The mental model I have is as you're talking to them, you're getting pluses and negatives.
我的思维模式是，当你与他们交谈时，你会得到优点和缺点。
There's red flags you're hearing and there's really great things.
你会听到一些危险信号，但也有一些非常棒的事情。
And then at the end you can make an opinion of how good this person is.
最后你可以对这个人的优秀程度做出评价。
Luc Levesque: Another great sign of excellence, and this was just through reflecting on stars on the team and thinking what makes them unique, what about them.
Luc Levesque：卓越的另一个伟大标志，这只是通过反思团队中的明星并思考他们的独特之处以及他们的特点。
One of them is when somebody's boss leaves the company and then comes back to poach them, that is such a strong signal because if you think of what just happened, the leader who knows exactly how good this person you're talking to is, they have the most knowledge of the performance of this individual, they left the company.
其中之一是当某人的老板离开公司然后回来挖走他们时，这是一个非常强烈的信号，因为如果你想想刚刚发生的事情，领导者确切地知道与你交谈的这个人有多优秀，他们最了解这个人的表现，他们离开了公司。
They've come back to poach them, putting their own reputation at risk by coming back depending on the situation.
他们回来挖走他们，视情况回来，将自己的声誉置于危险之中。
And they would never do that unless this person was really, really good.
除非这个人真的非常非常好，否则他们永远不会这样做。
Luc Levesque: So you don't want to over pivot on one signal, you want to look at the full picture.
Luc Levesque：所以你不想过度关注一个信号，你想查看整个情况。
But those are the types of things I look at to bring in top talent.
但这些正是我所关注的引进顶尖人才的方式。
And I've got this whole playbook, mistakes I've made that I've learned from, things to avoid.
我有整本剧本，我犯过的错误，我从中吸取了教训，以及要避免的事情。
And over the years, yeah, I've put together this playbook that I try to follow and I'm always running little experiments to try to make it better.
多年来，是的，我已经整理了这本我试图遵循的剧本，并且我总是进行一些小实验以尝试使其变得更好。
Lenny: Were going to that blueprint that you mentioned.
莱尼：我们会按照你提到的那个蓝图进行。
A lot of which you're talking about is probably more relevant to senior executive type people because you're looking for...
您所谈论的很多内容可能与高级管理人员类型的人员更相关，因为您正在寻找......
Or maybe not because you're looking for say three.
或者也许不是因为您正在寻找三个。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So people early in their career could also have three, say, moments of excellence?
那么，职业生涯早期的人也可能拥有三个卓越时刻？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I mean just thinking off the top, it depends on the type of person you're hiring, but are they a founder?
Luc Levesque：是的，我的意思是从顶层考虑，这取决于你雇用的人的类型，但他们是创始人吗？
Have they tried to do something?
他们尝试过做某事吗？
Did they win an award somewhere?
他们在某个地方获奖了吗？
Are they a gold medalist at something?
他们是某方面的金牌得主吗？
Have they done something that others have not that shows grit, that shows drive, that shows the ability to succeed?
他们是否做了别人没有做过的事情，显示出勇气、显示出干劲、显示出成功的能力？
And I've seen that you can apply that to any candidate you're hiring.
我发现你可以将这一点应用到你正在招聘的任何候选人身上。
Lenny: The implication there is, without that, they're probably not going to be stars, that there's a strong correlation between having signs of excellence and them performing really well in this role.
莱尼：这意味着，如果没有这一点，他们可能不会成为明星，拥有卓越表现和他们在这个角色中表现出色之间存在很强的相关性。
Luc Levesque: Correct, exactly.
Luc Levesque：正确，完全正确。
Yeah, I mean I suppose it's possible, but it would be pretty rare that somebody would come in without some sign that they stand above the crowd.
是的，我的意思是我认为这是可能的，但是很少有人进来时没有任何迹象表明他们站在人群之上。
And again, I'm talking about you generally want to hire the top 1% of candidates.
再说一次，我说的是你通常希望聘用排名前 1% 的候选人。
So when you're looking for the best of the best, you definitely are looking for those signals.
因此，当您寻找最好的产品时，您肯定会寻找这些信号。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, so I'm going to bring us back on the agenda that I had for myself, which is I want to start with talking about advisorships and advising and growth advisors.
好的，所以我要让我们回到我自己的议程上，我想从谈论顾问和咨询和成长顾问开始。
You've been a growth advisor for a long time to some of the most amazing companies out there, Twitter, Pinterest, Patreon, Canva, Thumbtack.
您长期以来一直担任一些最出色的公司的增长顾问，例如 Twitter、Pinterest、Patreon、Canva、Thumbtack。
I'm sure there's others that you don't list that are more informal.
我确信您还没有列出其他更非正式的内容。
Now you work at Shopify.
现在您在 Shopify 工作。
And so what I think about here is a lot of founders often think about, "Should I bring on an advisor?
所以我在这里想到的是很多创始人经常思考的问题：“我应该聘请一名顾问吗？
What should I look for an advisor?
我应该寻找什么顾问？
I've heard stories of advisors being useless sometimes.
我听说过顾问有时毫无用处的故事。
People tell me I don't need advisors." So I guess the question here is just what's your take on when it makes sense to bring on and consider bringing on a growth advisor and what should people look for when they're exploring and talking to a potential growth advisor?
人们告诉我，我不需要顾问。”所以我想这里的问题是，当聘请和考虑聘请一名成长顾问有意义时，您的看法是什么？人们在探索和与潜在的成长顾问交谈时应该寻找什么？
Luc Levesque: A few thoughts.
吕克·莱维斯克：一些想法。
In terms of when, I don't think you can probably come into early.
至于什么时候，我认为你可能无法提前进入。
It's probably harder to find really good ones than it is to time it.
找到真正好的产品可能比把握时机更难。
But generally speaking, I would say you don't want to focus too much on growth until you have product market fit.
但一般来说，我想说，在产品适合市场之前，你不想过多关注增长。
So make sure you have a product that users love that's either showing strong signs of retention or has some good loop that you can see that you can start thinking about growth.
因此，请确保您拥有一款用户喜欢的产品，该产品要么表现出强烈的保留迹象，要么具有良好的循环，您可以看到您可以开始考虑增长。
Lenny: Let me follow on that thread real quick because I find some founders still want to have someone come help them with growth even though they know they don't have product market fit, even though this tip comes up every single time when I'm talking to growth person, like, "Wait till you have product market fit before doing growth stuff." So could you just add a little bit of why that's important while we're on that topic?
莱尼：让我快速跟进这个话题，因为我发现一些创始人仍然希望有人来帮助他们实现增长，即使他们知道自己没有产品市场契合度，尽管每次我与成长型人士交谈时都会出现这个提示，比如“等到产品市场契合后再做增长的事情。”那么您能否补充一点为什么在我们讨论该主题时这一点很重要？
Luc Levesque: Growth advice is generally always applicable.
Luc Levesque：成长建议通常总是适用的。
And if you can start thinking about how to build your product early, even if it's pre-product market fit, you're not going to do any damage, but you may be wasting some capital on an advisor or a growth person too early.
如果您可以尽早开始考虑如何构建您的产品，即使它是产品前的市场契合度，您也不会造成任何损害，但您可能会过早地在顾问或成长人员上浪费一些资本。
The problem that I see is if you start growing a product that doesn't have product market fit, you're actually doing more damage than good because you have a product that is now being exposed to the market through growth levers and through optimization that is giving a bad experience with your product.
我看到的问题是，如果你开始开发一款不适合产品市场的产品，那么你实际上弊大于利，因为你的产品现在通过增长杠杆和优化暴露在市场上，这会给你的产品带来糟糕的体验。
And you want that product that you know is tight and you know has product market fit to start building the flywheel and start growing.
你想要那种你知道是紧张的产品，你知道它有适合市场的产品来开始构建飞轮并开始增长。
You don't want it to be growing if it doesn't satisfy that need that you're trying to build out for.
如果它不能满足您试图构建的需求，您就不希望它增长。
So I can see it having more damage than good because when somebody tries something, they're unlikely to try it again.
所以我可以看到它的弊大于利，因为当有人尝试某件事时，他们不太可能再尝试一次。
And so that's the dangerous game you can get into.
这就是你可能参与的危险游戏。
So you're better off with a good product that's satisfying a need and then growing from there.
因此，您最好拥有一款能够满足需求并以此为基础不断发展的好产品。
Luc Levesque: I will say to kind of play devil's advocate with myself and something that I've done actually in one of the products, I've built several consumer products and grown them, is that sometimes to know if you have a product, you need users to use it.
Luc Levesque：我想说的是，我对自己唱反调，我在其中一款产品中实际做过的事情，我已经构建了几种消费产品并培育了它们，有时要知道你是否有产品，你需要用户使用它。
So there's like some subtlety in here, but I would say if you are trying to get users in to start playing with it at scale, I mean try to focus in on a market that is maybe off the grid.
所以这里有一些微妙之处，但我想说，如果你试图让用户开始大规模使用它，我的意思是尝试专注于可能脱离电网的市场。
Like pick some English-speaking country that's a bit off the grid that you can isolate your marketing to so you can start getting dozens or a couple hundred people per day coming in and giving you feedback.
比如选择一些有点脱离电网的英语国家，你可以将你的营销隔离到其中，这样你就可以开始每天有几十或几百人进来给你反馈。
Luc Levesque: I've seen that work too.
Luc Levesque：我也看到过这样的效果。
So I'd say wait till you have product market fit.
所以我想说等到你的产品适合市场。
If you do start growing your product early because you need that signal from people actually using it beyond just focus groups and friends or small numbers of people, try to do it off the grid in smaller markets that you can get kind of contain the growth and get what you're really trying to get, which is that signal on is it working or not.
如果你确实很早就开始发展你的产品，因为你需要来自实际使用它的人的信号，而不仅仅是焦点小组和朋友或少数人，那么尝试在较小的市场中进行脱离网格，你可以得到某种程度的控制增长并得到你真正想要得到的东西，这就是它是否有效的信号。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, I threw us off track.
好吧，我让我们偏离了轨道。
Let's get back on track.
让我们回到正轨吧。
So we're talking about when it makes sense to find a growth advisor and then what to look for and so on that you might want to work with.
因此，我们讨论的是何时寻找成长顾问有意义，然后是寻找什么，等等您可能想与之合作的问题。
Luc Levesque: I mean, what makes a great growth advisor is somebody who really understands what to do but also why certain growth levers work.
Luc Levesque：我的意思是，成为一名优秀的增长顾问的关键是真正了解该做什么以及某些增长杠杆为何有效。
It's that kind of deep understanding of levers of onboarding or whatever area they're focusing on that really makes growth advisor stand out.
正是对入职杠杆或他们所关注的任何领域的深刻理解才真正使增长顾问脱颖而出。
So when you're looking for a growth advisor, you want to have those discussions to see like, "How much depth does this person have?
因此，当您寻找成长顾问时，您希望进行这些讨论，以了解“这个人有多少深度？
Have they seen a playbook and they're just good at repeating the playbook or are they evolving, are they growing?" The best way to get to know that is to start really asking them questions about growth and growth advising and the certain things that they've done and why they think those have worked.
他们是否看过剧本并且他们只是擅长重复剧本，或者他们正在进化，他们正在成长吗？”了解这一点的最好方法是开始真正询问他们有关增长和增长建议的问题，以及他们所做的某些事情以及他们为什么认为这些事情有效。
Luc Levesque: This can be tricky if you don't yourself know growth.
Luc Levesque：如果你自己不了解增长，这可能会很棘手。
So I think one thing that I have not seen a lot of founders do that I would advise is if you have an advisor already...
所以我认为我没有看到很多创始人做过的一件事是，我建议你是否已经有顾问了......
Because this applies to finding growth advisors, but it also applies to hiring good growth talent.
因为这不仅适用于寻找成长顾问，也适用于雇用优秀的成长人才。
So if you have somebody you know whether it's already an advisor or somebody who knows growth, you can solicit their help in trying to flesh out whether somebody you're trying to hire is of high talent.
因此，如果你有认识的人，无论他已经是顾问还是了解成长的人，你都可以寻求他们的帮助，以确定你要雇用的人是否具有高素质。
So if you have an advisor, you can make that one of their roles is vet out any new talent coming in.
因此，如果你有一位顾问，你可以让他们的角色之一是审查任何新加入的人才。
And if you're looking for an advisor, try to find somebody that you know and trust who can do that first pass.
如果您正在寻找顾问，请尝试找到您认识并信任的可以完成第一步的人。
Because for somebody who knows growth that you trust, it's actually not a lot of work for them to vet out how talented someone else's.
因为对于那些你信任的了解成长的人来说，他们实际上不需要做很多工作来审查别人的才华。
It's an easy ask to make and something that if you have that person in your network or that worked with you that you can leverage for.
这是一个很容易提出的要求，如果你的网络中有那个人或者与你一起工作的人，你就可以利用这个人。
Luc Levesque: But I haven't seen that too often where founders kind of take advantage of people they know or existing growth advisors to help recruit and vet talent because it can be quite hard if you don't know the growth space to know if somebody's good or not.
Luc Levesque：但我并没有经常看到创始人利用他们认识的人或现有的成长顾问来帮助招聘和审查人才，因为如果你不知道成长空间，就很难知道某人是否优秀。
Lenny: That's a really interesting idea and it could be where you find someone that's too busy to work with you, but maybe you could just ask, "Hey, could you just easily help me vet people?" And it takes a lot less time.
莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的想法，你可能会发现某个人太忙而无法与你一起工作，但也许你可以问，“嘿，你能轻松地帮助我审查人员吗？”而且花费的时间要少得多。
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I've never been asked that, which is, I mean I don't know if I'll start getting asked this now, but it does seem like that's a really simple way to add a ton of value.
Luc Levesque：是的，我从来没有被问过这个问题，也就是说，我不知道我现在是否会开始被问到这个问题，但看起来这确实是一种增加大量价值的非常简单的方法。
And as a founder, I mean even if you have to pay this person or whatever you have to do, but it's such an important hire to get right.
作为一名创始人，我的意思是，即使你必须付钱给这个人或做任何你必须做的事情，但这是一个非常重要的招聘。
We talk about the 10X engineer and we don't really talk about the 10X growth advisor or 10X growth person, but the same dynamic applies.
我们谈论 10 倍工程师，而不是真正谈论 10 倍增长顾问或 10 倍增长人员，但同样的动态也适用。
You could argue it applies even more because the right growth advisor can have literally company changing impact where they're either building or helping to ideate or helping to implement a growth loop that literally changes the company.
你可能会说它更适用，因为合适的增长顾问可以对公司产生真正的改变影响，他们可以构建或帮助构思或帮助实施真正改变公司的增长循环。
As we know, you need a great product and you need a great growth loop.
众所周知，您需要出色的产品，并且需要良好的增长循环。
And it's usually just one loop that you need to get right.
通常您只需要完成一个循环即可。
Most companies have gotten to where they are just off of one really strong channel that they've just dominated, so it's important to get right.
大多数公司已经到达了他们刚刚占据主导地位的一个非常强大的渠道，因此正确的做法很重要。
Lenny: Is there an example of that sort of impact that you've seen in your advisorship or other people's of just an impact from one conversation or a little bit of a help?
莱尼：您在您的顾问或其他人的顾问中是否看到过一次谈话或一点帮助所产生的影响的例子？
Luc Levesque: Definitely.
吕克·莱维斯克：当然。
And I think what I would point to is the advantage of a growth advisor is it takes a long time to understand a channel.
我想我要指出的是增长顾问的优势是需要很长时间才能了解渠道。
Certainly people have to know their stuff, they have to be very good at their craft, their growth craft, but also they have to be exposed to a large set of experiments or an environment where they've just seen what works and what doesn't.
当然，人们必须了解他们的东西，他们必须非常擅长他们的技巧，他们的成长技巧，但他们也必须接触大量的实验或环境，在那里他们刚刚看到什么有效，什么无效。
So no matter how good somebody is, if they haven't been exposed to an environment where there's a lot of experimentation, a lot of learning, it's very hard for them to internalize that.
因此，无论一个人有多优秀，如果他们没有接触过一个有大量实验、大量学习的环境，他们就很难内化这些。
So once a growth advisor has that, it's takes years to learn it, but it literally can take seconds literally to communicate that.
因此，一旦成长顾问掌握了这一点，就需要花费数年的时间来学习它，但实际上可能只需要几秒钟的时间来传达这一点。
So I've worked with some companies that you've mentioned and certainly have had impact very quickly.
我曾与你提到的一些公司合作过，并且很快就产生了影响。
Luc Levesque: I mean, one example would be a company that I worked with.
Luc Levesque：我的意思是，我曾合作过的一家公司就是一个例子。
Now, a public company.
现在是上市公司。
At the time, they weren't.
当时，他们不是。
On day one, walked in, they presented their strategy, their plans, their funnels and their landing pages.
第一天，他们走进来，展示了他们的策略、计划、渠道和登陆页面。
I could see very quickly that there was something they were doing that was a little off and I asked them, "Well, why are you doing it that way?" And they said, "Well, we think it just looks better that way." And I said, "Well, just do it this other way." I remember this because it was such a short conversation and then three weeks later we connected and I heard they had rolled it out and it was a large impact that they had from this one change.
我很快就发现他们正在做的事情有点不对劲，我问他们：“那么，你们为什么要这样做呢？”他们说：“好吧，我们认为这样看起来更好。”我说：“好吧，就用别的方法吧。”我记得这一点是因为这是一次简短的谈话，三周后我们联系上了，我听说他们已经推出了它，这一变化对他们产生了巨大的影响。
This has happened many times with the companies I've worked with, but it's a good example that once you know it, it's not hard to recognize it if you deeply understand it to give advice, but it takes a long time to get the base knowledge.
这种情况在我合作过的公司里已经发生过很多次了，但这是一个很好的例子，一旦你了解了它，如果你深入了解它并给出建议，就不难识别它，但需要很长时间才能获得基础知识。
Luc Levesque: So I don't do these too often anymore, but when I do advise, I take them very seriously.
Luc Levesque：所以我不再经常这样做，但当我提出建议时，我会非常认真地对待它们。
I focus exclusively on having impact.
我只专注于产生影响力。
I think that's really important because like you say, there's a lot of advisors out there.
我认为这非常重要，因为就像你说的，那里有很多顾问。
Some of them are great, some of them different qualities, and you really want to make sure that if you are an advisor, you want to be in the camp of when this person comes in, they have a lot of impact and it takes time and focus and energy and alignment and there's a bunch of things we can talk about that that helps to drive that alignment.
他们中的一些人很棒，一些人的素质不同，你真的想确保，如果你是一名顾问，当这个人进来时你想加入其中，他们有很大的影响力，这需要时间、专注、精力和协调，我们可以谈论很多事情来帮助推动这种协调。
But having impact is the most important thing, whether you're an advisor or if you're hiring because it's one of those weird disciplines where the right person at the right time can literally say a sentence that changes the trajectory of your company.
但无论你是顾问还是招聘人员，影响力都是最重要的，因为这是一种奇怪的学科，在正确的时间正确的人可以说一句话改变你公司的发展轨迹。
You can't say that for a lot of different disciplines, but this is one of them.
对于许多不同的学科你不能这么说，但这就是其中之一。
Lenny: There's that word impact again,
莱尼：又是这个词的冲击力，
Lenny: The point you just made about how one conversation can have a ton of impact is a reminder of why sometimes the price of an advisor feels absurd where like, "For one hour it's like thousands of dollars," but it's because obviously they spent a decade learning a thing and one conversation is all of that work they put into it crystallized for you in the moment.
莱尼：你刚才提出的关于一次对话如何产生巨大影响的观点提醒我们，为什么有时顾问的价格感觉很荒谬，比如“一小时就像数千美元”，但这是因为显然他们花了十年的时间来学习一件事，而一次对话是他们在此刻为你投入的所有工作的结晶。
Luc Levesque: Exactly.
吕克·莱维斯克：没错。
It's something I've experienced several times in hindsight when you're like, "Okay, here's the needle in the haystack" and then it's implemented and you can see hundreds of percentages, sometimes over a thousand percent lift when you get it right.
这是我事后多次经历过的事情，当你想，“好吧，这是大海捞针”，然后它被实施，你可以看到数百个百分比，有时超过一千个百分点，当你做对了。
It's exhilarating.
真是令人兴奋。
It's great.
这很棒。
I have something I used to say, which is, you want your impact to be so big there's a slide in the next board deck on try to explain what happened.
我曾经说过一句话，那就是，你希望你的影响力如此之大，以致于下一个董事会上有一张幻灯片试图解释发生了什么。
That can happen when you are advising companies because you're able to share a very quickly insights.
当您为公司提供咨询时，这种情况就会发生，因为您能够非常快速地分享见解。
But one way to drive alignment is not everybody can do this, not all advisors do it this way, but I personally love just when I do these, which is not that frequent, just purely doing equity because I love the alignment in outcomes where the founder will be successful and you will be successful.
但推动一致性的一种方法不是每个人都能做到这一点，并非所有顾问都这样做，但我个人喜欢我这样做，这并不常见，只是纯粹做股权，因为我喜欢结果的一致性，创始人会成功，你也会成功。
So the incentives are really good to drive the right performance and the right outcomes that you want as a founder.
因此，激励措施确实可以很好地推动创始人所希望的正确绩效和正确结果。
Luc Levesque: So if you can do it, I would definitely advise founders to bring advisors in for equity if you can.
Luc Levesque：所以如果你能做到的话，我肯定会建议创始人引入顾问以获得股权。
I think the same applies for your internal growth team.
我认为这同样适用于您的内部增长团队。
You want to make sure that the teams are incentivized not on activities, on doing stuff, because there's a lot of stuff to be done in growth, but really driving the outcomes that you want.
你要确保团队的激励不是在活动上、在做事上，因为在增长过程中有很多事情要做，而是真正推动你想要的结果。
And equity's just a great way of saying, "Hey, we're in this together.
公平只是一种很好的表达方式：“嘿，我们在一起。
We're on the same side of the table.
我们在桌子的同一侧。
Let's go grow this company."
让我们一起发展这家公司吧。”
Lenny: I was actually about to ask you what kind of structure you recommend for an advisorship.
莱尼：我实际上想问你推荐什么样的顾问结构。
Is there anything else you can share about just what you'd recommend a founder do in terms of compensation for an advisor?
关于您建议创始人在顾问薪酬方面采取的措施，您还有什么可以分享的吗？
Luc Levesque: There's a couple things.
Luc Levesque：有几件事。
I'm a big fan of equity because of the alignment of incentives.
由于激励措施的一致性，我非常喜欢股权。
You should think about, without getting into too much detail of the actual structure of the deals, but think about how you vest the equity.
你应该考虑一下，但不要过多考虑交易的实际结构，而是考虑如何归属股权。
The last thing you want is an advisor holding back on sharing knowledge.
您最不想要的就是顾问拒绝分享知识。
The ideal engagement would be an advisor comes in, delivers as much value as possible quickly, and then trains your team.
理想的参与是顾问介入，快速提供尽可能多的价值，然后培训您的团队。
And then maybe it's a one-year engagement and hopefully they've learned because the advisor has been incentivized to share as much as possible and to train the team as much as possible.
然后也许这是为期一年的参与，希望他们已经学到了东西，因为顾问被激励尽可能多地分享并尽可能多地培训团队。
And then ideally you don't need them anymore after.
理想情况下，您之后就不再需要它们了。
So there's something there about structuring equity vesting.
因此，存在一些关于构建股权归属的问题。
I'm a big fan of vesting earlier rather than later.
我非常喜欢尽早兑现而不是推迟兑现。
So think about in terms of structure you're vesting, commensurate with the value you want, which is very much front loaded.
因此，请考虑您所授予的结构，与您想要的价值相称，这是非常预先加载的。
Luc Levesque: I'm also a big fan of three month cliffs.
Luc Levesque：我也是三个月悬崖的忠实粉丝。
Something I've done, I always do actually, is listen, in the first three months you'll know both sides if it's working or not.
我所做的一件事，实际上我一直在做，就是倾听，在前三个月里，你会知道双方是否有效。
And you want to de-risk that on both sides because it really should be seen as a partnership between the advisor and the founder.
你想要降低双方的风险，因为它确实应该被视为顾问和创始人之间的合作伙伴关系。
If the founder thinks you're not adding value in the first few months, I think they should just tear it up and both sides move on.
如果创始人认为你在最初几个月没有增加价值，我认为他们应该撕毁它，双方继续前进。
It's not good for the founder to continue the deal and it's not good frankly for the advisor because they're not, for some reason, able to add value in that environment.
继续交易对创始人来说不好，坦率地说对顾问来说也不好，因为出于某种原因，他们无法在这种环境下增加价值。
So I love a three-month cliff at the beginning where if it's not working in the first three months, you tear up the deal and both parties walk away and de-risk the entire thing, and again, drives incentives in the right way where the advisor is 100% incentivized at as much value as fast as possible.
所以我喜欢一开始的三个月悬崖，如果在前三个月不起作用，你就撕毁协议，双方走开并降低整个事情的风险，然后再次以正确的方式推动激励，让顾问以尽可能快的价值获得 100% 的激励。
And so that's another thing that I tend to do and I've done it for a long time.
这是我倾向于做的另一件事，而且我已经做了很长时间了。
Lenny: That's a really good tip.
莱尼：这确实是一个很好的建议。
Basically don't do it for a year if you're vesting for advisors, probably not even to a year, but yeah.
如果你要为顾问授予权益，基本上一年内都不会这样做，甚至可能不会一年，但是是的。
Luc Levesque: There's a bunch of ways to do it.
Luc Levesque：有很多方法可以做到这一点。
Honestly, it's hard enough to find growth advisors that have capacity, so you got to also say like, "What can you do that the advisor's comfortable with?" But yeah, I mean just to be candid, I think you want to structure in a way where you're not dependent on the advisor over time.
老实说，找到有能力的增长顾问已经够难的了，所以你还必须说，“你能做什么让顾问感到满意？”但是，是的，我的意思是坦白地说，我认为你希望以一种不随着时间的推移依赖于顾问的方式进行构建。
They're adding a ton of value, they're helping teach the team, they're probably bouncing around because your company's changing, your team's changing, your leaders are changing.
他们增加了大量的价值，他们帮助教导团队，他们可能会因为你的公司在变化，你的团队在变化，你的领导者在变化而四处走动。
But over time, and that can be years, but it shouldn't be indefinite.
但随着时间的推移，可能是几年，但不应该是无限期的。
You shouldn't need an advisor forever.
你不应该永远需要顾问。
Luc Levesque: I've seen a scenario where there's desire to keep the advisor on almost as insurance, like, "If something goes wrong, I just wanted to be able to pick up the phone." That can make sense.
Luc Levesque：我见过这样一种情况，人们希望让顾问继续工作，就像保险一样，比如，“如果出了问题，我只想能够拿起电话。”这是有道理的。
But I do think a good growth advisor is incentivized to share as much as possible, as fast as possible to have impact to train your team.
但我确实认为优秀的成长顾问会被激励尽可能多、尽可能快地分享，以便对培训你的团队产生影响。
And then whether you want to keep them on or not long term as an insurance policy or just to answer questions as things change, that should be a choice and not because, "If we lose the advisor.
然后，无论你想将它们作为保险单长期保留还是不长期保留，或者只是在情况发生变化时回答问题，这都应该是一个选择，而不是因为“如果我们失去顾问。
We're completely screwed." That would be a bad place for you to be in as a founder.
我们彻底完蛋了。”作为创始人，这对你来说是一个糟糕的处境。
Lenny: You said it's hard to find a good advisor, 100% agree.
Lenny：你说很难找到一个好的顾问，我100%同意。
Any advice for people to help them find an advisor that might be the right fit?
有什么建议可以帮助人们找到合适的顾问吗？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I would say there's more of them these days than there were even just five years ago or 10 years ago.
Luc Levesque：是的，我想说现在的数量比五年前或十年前还要多。
Depending on your situation, if you're a founder, I would start with your investors.
根据你的情况，如果你是创始人，我会从你的投资者开始。
I think VCs have an amazing network of advisors.
我认为风险投资家拥有一个令人惊叹的顾问网络。
I get, I don't know, a couple requests a week that I'm not taking right now.
我不知道，我每周都会收到几个请求，但我现在没有接受。
But that from my experience and what I've seen, that's probably especially the high end VCs, the very talented VCs will have this network.
但根据我的经验和我所看到的，这可能尤其是高端风险投资，非常有才华的风险投资将拥有这个网络。
And frankly, it's a great partnership as an advisor for you to have.
坦率地说，作为顾问，这是一个很好的合作伙伴关系。
You can help the companies, you can help the VCs and it helps you.
你可以帮助公司，你可以帮助风投，它也会帮助你。
So everybody wins, just asking other founders that had good experience, much like hiring.
所以每个人都会赢，只需询问其他有良好经验的创始人，就像招聘一样。
Luc Levesque: The third advice I would give is to find companies that are world-class at what you're trying to grow, what channel or skill you're looking at, and then reach out and see if there's a way to help that way.
Luc Levesque：我给出的第三个建议是，找到在你想要发展的领域、你正在寻找的渠道或技能方面处于世界一流的公司，然后伸出援手，看看是否有办法提供帮助。
That's actually how I got started.
我实际上就是这样开始的。
I was at Tripadvisor and a prominent VC reached out.
我在 Tripadvisor 工作时，一位著名的风险投资家向我伸出了援手。
One of the companies they were working with needed some help on SEO.
他们合作的一家公司需要 SEO 方面的帮助。
I was still in Canada at the time, got connected with them, had a phone call, had a significant impact through that one phone call.
当时我还在加拿大，与他们取得了联系，打了一个电话，通过那一个电话产生了重大影响。
And rather than joining as an advisor, I essentially helped them out pro bono in exchange for, "Hey, I want to get connected in the Valley." So I was in Canada, I wanted to start another company, I wanted to get connected.
我并没有以顾问的身份加入，而是无偿地帮助他们，以换取“嘿，我想在硅谷建立联系”。所以我在加拿大，我想创办另一家公司，我想建立联系。
So through that tactic where they reached out to a company that was known to be world-class at SEO, I think that was really smart on this VC's part.
因此，通过他们接触到一家在 SEO 方面世界一流的公司的策略，我认为这对风险投资来说非常明智。
Luc Levesque: And then maybe some advice to up and coming growth advisors would be that first one, I didn't take a single shred of equity or money and just tried to have as much impact as possible and to help out this company as much as possible and then make sure that I was able to get connected to other people that I wanted to meet in the Bay Area.
Luc Levesque：对于即将到来的增长顾问的一些建议可能是，第一，我没有拿走一丁点股权或金钱，只是试图产生尽可能大的影响，尽可能地帮助这家公司，然后确保我能够与我想在湾区认识的其他人建立联系。
And then kind of things snowballed from there.
然后事情就从那里滚雪球般滚滚而来。
Lenny: I definitely want to chat about how to become a growth advisor because I think people listening here might be like, "Oh, that sounds pretty good.
莱尼：我绝对想谈谈如何成为一名成长顾问，因为我认为在这里听的人可能会说，“哦，这听起来不错。
Someday maybe I'll become a growth advisor." But before we get to that, what are things that an advisor are best suited for versus finding someone full-time versus no one?
也许有一天我会成为一名成长顾问。”但在此之前，我们先来了解一下，与寻找全职顾问和无人顾问相比，顾问最适合做哪些事情？
What are the ideal kind of problem sets for an advisor versus say, full-time hire person?
对于顾问和全职雇员来说，理想的问题是什么？
Luc Levesque: I would say your preference should always be to have somebody in-house.
Luc Levesque：我想说的是，你应该优先选择内部人员。
I'll start there because you want to have that as part of the culture.
我将从这里开始，因为你希望将其作为文化的一部分。
There's so much more that they can do when they're in-house.
当他们在公司内部时，他们可以做的事情还有很多。
That being said, if you can't find somebody in-house, then bring on an advisor...
话虽这么说，如果你在内部找不到人，那就请一位顾问......
Even if you bring on an advisor, some advice to founders would be you want to surround your team or at least one person that you've identified who's just a amazing world-class doer, even if they don't know growth, with a set of growth advisors so that they're learning, that's being put through the culture of the company and that knowledge stays inside of the company.
即使你聘请了一名顾问，对创始人的一些建议是，你想要围绕你的团队或至少一个你认为是世界级实干家的人，即使他们不了解增长，也要有一组增长顾问，以便他们不断学习，将其融入公司文化，并将知识保留在公司内部。
So I'd say I would prefer to go internal, surround these people with great advisors and then take it from there.
所以我想说我更愿意进入内部，为这些人提供优秀的顾问，然后从那里开始。
That would be how I approach it.
这就是我的处理方式。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So two thoughts here.
所以这里有两个想法。
One is I feel like this podcast is becoming an interesting way to discover awesome growth advisors.
一是我觉得这个播客正在成为发现优秀成长顾问的一种有趣方式。
I think over time I'm building this directory of who are awesome, smart growth people that are open to advising.
我想，随着时间的推移，我正在建立这个目录，列出谁是优秀的、聪明的、乐于提供建议的成长型人士。
So that could be an interesting opportunity to just look through the folks on this podcast and-
因此，这可能是一个有趣的机会，可以浏览一下这个播客中的人们，然后-
Luc Levesque: Yep, there's some great people that have been on here.
Luc Levesque：是的，这里有一些很棒的人。
Definitely.
确实。
Lenny: Totally working my way through all the amazing least smart growth people and product leaders.
莱尼：我完全通过所有令人惊叹的最不聪明的增长人员和产品领导者来工作。
The other is I've noticed they're a lot of the best growth advisors have worked with the same sorts of companies.
另一个是我注意到他们中有很多最好的成长顾问都曾与同类公司合作过。
I find Miro comes up a lot, Canva comes up a lot, Pinterest.
我发现 Miro 出现了很多，Canva 出现了很多，Pinterest。
All these people that have worked with say Pinterest that I hear about are just awesome.
所有与我合作过的人都说我听说过的 Pinterest 非常棒。
Casey comes to mind, Melissa Tan who's coming out with a podcast, I think she worked with them.
我想到了凯西，梅丽莎·谭，她正在推出一个播客，我想她和他们一起工作过。
Dropbox.
Dropbox。
Anyway, so maybe one idea, see who these companies work with as advisors and that can maybe point you to people that are worth exploring.
不管怎样，也许有一个想法，看看这些公司与谁合作作为顾问，这也许可以给你指出值得探索的人。
Luc Levesque: I mean, that's a good idea.
Luc Levesque：我的意思是，这是个好主意。
It kind of goes back to something I mentioned earlier, which is companies that have a lot of traffic and that have a lot of users are a great learning ground for growth people and for advisors, because no matter how smart you are, you need the reps.
这有点回到我之前提到的，拥有大量流量和用户的公司对于成长型人才和顾问来说是一个很好的学习场所，因为无论你有多聪明，你都需要销售代表。
You got to go to the growth gym and put in the reps, which is experiments.
你必须去健身房进行训练，这就是实验。
You've got to try things, things that are going to work, things that aren't going to work.
你必须尝试一些事情，那些行得通的事情，那些行不通的事情。
There's a discipline of when something doesn't work, you can learn almost as much as when something works.
有一条原则是，当某件事不起作用时，你可以学到的东西几乎和某事起作用时一样多。
But you need that traffic, you need that environment.
但你需要那种流量，你需要那种环境。
And that's why certain companies have these great people coming out like Casey at Pinterest and other people that have been at these companies that have the traffic, have the culture to support it, to support growth.
这就是为什么某些公司拥有像 Pinterest 的凯西这样的优秀人才，以及其他在这些公司工作过的人，他们拥有流量，拥有支持流量、支持增长的文化。
I don't think that's a coincidence why some of these companies have some great people coming from them.
我认为，其中一些公司拥有一些优秀人才，这并非巧合。
Lenny: The other tip I just thought about as you were talking is everyone's launching a Substack newsletter that is doing any sort of advising because there's a lot of power in building an audience and creating kind of awareness of what you do.
Lenny：在你说话时我想到的另一个建议是每个人都在推出 Substack 时事通讯，提供各种建议，因为在建立受众群体和提高人们对你所做工作的认识方面有很大的力量。
So I wonder if another tip is search Substack's directory of newsletters for specific things you're dealing with, like say, go to PLG or sales and you might find someone there."
所以我想知道是否还有另一个技巧是搜索 Substack 的时事通讯目录以查找您正在处理的特定事务，例如，去 PLG 或销售部门，您可能会在那里找到人。”
Luc Levesque: I haven't done that, but that seems like a reasonable way to do it.
Luc Levesque：我还没有这样做，但这似乎是一个合理的方法。
Lenny: That's where we're all heading.
莱尼：这就是我们都要去的地方。
Luc Levesque: I'm not saying that the people on Substack have this.
Luc Levesque：我并不是说 Substack 上的人有这个。
But as advice to the people listening, is when you're vetting for a growth advisor or growth talent, don't just wait it on the public halo of somebody.
但给听众的建议是，当你在审查成长顾问或成长人才时，不要只是等待某人的公众光环。
That's a common mistake I've seen where maybe somebody's done presentations at a conference or somebody's done...
这是我见过的一个常见错误，也许有人在会议上做了演讲，或者有人做了……
I don't know, but their Twitter following is broad.
我不知道，但他们的推特粉丝很广泛。
They can be excellent.
他们可以很优秀。
That's not a disqualifier immediately, but just make sure not to make the hire just exclusively on that.
这并不是立即取消资格，但要确保不要仅仅以此为由进行聘用。
I've made that mistake a few times and it's a common one to get into.
我已经犯过几次这样的错误，而且这是一个很常见的错误。
So make sure you're vetting properly, even if somebody with a large following on Substack or Twitter.
因此，即使某人在 Substack 或 Twitter 上拥有大量关注者，也要确保您进行了适当的审查。
That's I think an important thing to keep in mind.
我认为这是一件需要牢记的重要事情。
Lenny: 1000% agree.
莱尼：1000%同意。
I always say that the best product leader is the best growth.
我总是说，最好的产品领导者就是最好的成长。
People don't have time to sit on Twitter and tweet and write newsletters.
人们没有时间坐在推特上发推文和撰写时事通讯。
They're doing the job, working, building, growing, and maybe eventually they get out of that and start writing.
他们正在做这份工作，工作、建设、成长，也许最终他们会摆脱这些并开始写作。
But I 1000% agree, there's a lot of people-
但我1000%同意，有很多人-
Luc Levesque: Well, not to disqualify all the people on Twitter.
Luc Levesque：好吧，并不是要取消 Twitter 上所有人的资格。
Luc Levesque: Some of them are tweeting , but my point is just don't over pivot on the halo.
Luc Levesque：他们中的一些人在发推文，但我的观点是不要过度关注光环。
Just look at their past performance.
看看他们过去的表现就知道了。
What teams have they been on?
他们曾效力过哪些球队？
What environment do they have?
他们有什么环境？
Do they really know growth?
他们真的懂得成长吗？
And sometimes they do, but I think it's a common mistake to say, "Oh yeah, they have a large following, let's hire this person." That's poorly.
有时他们会这样做，但我认为说“哦，是的，他们有很多追随者，让我们雇用这个人”是一个常见的错误。那就不好了。
Lenny: 1000% agree.
莱尼：1000%同意。
Rarely does a celebrity hire that seems really genius on Twitter and Substack end up being as amazing as you think.
在 Twitter 和 Substack 上看似真正天才的名人聘用，很少会像你想象的那样令人惊叹。
Luc Levesque: Yeah, it does happen, but yeah.
Luc Levesque：是的，它确实发生了，但是是的。
Lenny: It does happen.
莱尼：确实发生了。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
One last question around this topic.
围绕这个主题的最后一个问题。
People listening might want to become growth advisors, I'd mentioned this earlier.
我之前提到过，倾听的人可能想成为成长顾问。
Is there any other advice you want to share?
您还有其他建议要分享吗？
Just like, "If you want to become a growth advisor someday, here's what you should think about."
就像，“如果你有一天想成为一名成长顾问，这就是你应该考虑的事情。”
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I think the right mental model as a growth advisor is around the same one as an investor.
Luc Levesque：是的，我认为作为一名成长顾问的正确思维模式与作为一名投资者大致相同。
So the most important thing an advisor can do aside from having impact and knowing their craft is picking which companies to work with, especially if you're working for equity.
因此，除了发挥影响力和了解自己的技能之外，顾问可以做的最重要的事情就是选择与哪些公司合作，特别是如果您正在为股权工作。
So I'll only speak to that, but you're basically putting in your time, you're picking likely a smaller number.
所以我只会谈论这一点，但你基本上投入了时间，你可能会选择一个较小的数字。
You only have so many hours in the day of companies to work with and you want to make sure there's a likely exit in the future.
你每天只有这么多时间可以与公司合作，并且你想确保未来有可能退出。
So for me personally, I have a spreadsheet, like most big decisions that I make in my life.
因此，就我个人而言，我有一个电子表格，就像我一生中做出的大多数重大决定一样。
Over the years I've just added criteria and questions to ask myself about the company and then reflect on, "Okay, is this kind of checking all the boxes for a likely outcome?" Because you don't just need to be successful, you need to be successful and for the company to be successful and for there to be liquidity of that.
多年来，我只是添加了一些标准和问题来询问自己关于公司的情况，然后反思，“好吧，这是一种检查所有方框以获得可能结果的方式吗？”因为你不仅需要成功，你还需要成功，公司也需要成功，公司需要有流动性。
Luc Levesque: So you need to put yourself in the shoes of an investor and look at it as an investment.
Luc Levesque：所以你需要站在投资者的立场上，将其视为一项投资。
That is arguably the most important thing because you can go and do a great job and then wait many years and potentially not see any reward for it.
这可以说是最重要的事情，因为你可以去做一份出色的工作，然后等待很多年，但可能看不到任何回报。
And I think that's the nice thing about the equity structure in that you're tied in the same incentives with the founder, which is just great in terms of any relationship to have the same incentives, but you want to make sure that there's a good likelihood of a decent outcome down the road.
我认为股权结构的好处在于，你与创始人有着相同的激励措施，这对于拥有相同激励措施的任何关系来说都是很好的，但你要确保未来很有可能取得不错的结果。
Luc Levesque: If I can throw another one in.
Luc Levesque：如果我能再扔一个进去的话。
Luc Levesque: The other piece of advice I would give is it can take a long time for some of these companies to be successful.
Luc Levesque：我给出的另一条建议是，其中一些公司可能需要很长时间才能取得成功。
That's okay.
没关系。
You should expect that.
你应该预料到这一点。
In fact, you should just go in with that mindset.
事实上，你应该抱着这样的心态去做。
When I'm deciding to work with a company, I'm in there for 10 years and I know that and I say that.
当我决定与一家公司合作时，我已经在那里工作了 10 年，我知道这一点，我也这么说。
And I say, "I'm in.
我说：“我加入了。
We're in this together if I choose to work with the company." But it does mean that the structure of the deal needs to reflect that.
如果我选择与该公司合作，我们就会在一起。”但这确实意味着交易结构需要反映这一点。
So you need to have a long tail at the end.
所以你最后需要有一条长尾巴。
Luc Levesque: So if you're taking options or RSUs and it's pure of the equity, make sure you have the time for that to happen.
Luc Levesque：因此，如果您选择期权或 RSU，并且纯粹是股权，请确保您有时间这样做。
There would be nothing worse than putting your heart and soul having impact and then waiting, I don't know, a couple years and then your equity expires.
没有什么比全心全意地发挥影响力然后等待，我不知道，几年之后你的股权到期更糟糕的了。
So you make sure there's a long tail.
所以你要确保有一条长尾巴。
I mean, it can literally take over 10 years for these companies to exit.
我的意思是，这些公司实际上可能需要 10 多年才能退出。
And you should be okay with that.
你应该对此感到满意。
I think that's okay.
我认为没关系。
You're taking some risks.
你正在冒一些风险。
They're taking some risk on you and that's a great partnership, but you'll just need the time for that.
他们让你承担一些风险，这是一个很好的合作伙伴关系，但你只需要时间。
So advice to growth advisors, make sure to ask for a long tail so that you don't end up in a bad spot in the end.
因此，给增长顾问的建议是，一定要要求长尾，这样你最终就不会陷入困境。
And that incentives, again, are perfectly aligned between the founder and the advisor.
而且，创始人和顾问之间的激励措施是完全一致的。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is the next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。
Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.
无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.
当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。
Eppo does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding knowing prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 可以完成所有这些任务，并快速提供结果，避免延长分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.
Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
Eppo supports test on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning claims.
Eppo 支持前端、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习声明。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.
请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。
That's geteppo.com and 10X your experiment velocity.
这就是 geteppo.com，并且是您实验速度的 10 倍。
Lenny: So I want to segue to a different topic, SEO.
Lenny：所以我想转向另一个主题，SEO。
You're kind of the...
你是那种...
You tell me, but it feels like you're one of the earliest SEO people in tech.
你告诉我，但感觉你是技术领域最早的 SEO 人员之一。
You helped grow Tripadvisor many years ago and it was mostly SEO-driven.
许多年前，您帮助 Tripadvisor 发展，而且主要是 SEO 驱动的。
I think you innovated a lot of SEO tactics and strategies.
我认为你创新了很多 SEO 策略和策略。
And then you helped Pinterest, Thumbtack, other companies that are very SEO-driven.
然后你帮助了 Pinterest、Thumbtack 以及其他非常注重 SEO 的公司。
You talked about how many companies grow through one channel and these are all very SEO-driven companies.
您谈到有多少公司通过一种渠道实现增长，这些公司都是 SEO 驱动的公司。
I imagine Shopify has a lot of SEO work that's happening right now with you there.
我想 Shopify 现在有很多 SEO 工作正在与您一起进行。
And so I want to chat about SEO.
所以我想谈谈 SEO。
So I guess broadly SEO is like...
所以我想广义上 SEO 就像......
It's like this amazing growth channel.
这就像这个惊人的增长通道。
It's basically free.
基本上是免费的。
It continues to work after you stop doing any work on it for a while.
当您停止对其进行任何操作一段时间后，它仍会继续工作。
Many founders think about, "Should we invest in SEO?
许多创始人都会思考，“我们应该投资 SEO 吗？
How do we approach SEO?" So maybe just as a first question, what are signs that your product and company is a good fit for SEO being potentially a huge channel for growth?
我们如何处理 SEO？”因此，也许作为第一个问题，有哪些迹象表明您的产品和公司非常适合 SEO，成为潜在的巨大增长渠道？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I've been doing SEO for a really long time.
Luc Levesque：是的，我从事 SEO 工作已经很长时间了。
It's a lot of fun and certainly being a supervisor was a great learning ground for that, that we were able to really innovate and try new things there.
这很有趣，当然，成为一名主管是一个很好的学习基础，我们能够在那里真正创新并尝试新事物。
In terms of the playbook that we built out.
就我们制定的剧本而言。
That was a lot of fun, those years.
那些年，真是太有趣了。
Luc Levesque: Couple thoughts.
Luc Levesque：几个想法。
The first one would be I do think there's an SEO play in any company.
第一个是我确实认为任何公司都存在搜索引擎优化。
Maybe at a different extent, but Google is such a large funnel of existing demand for your product or your product area that there's usually an angle to get some SEO traffic there.
也许程度不同，但谷歌是你的产品或你的产品领域现有需求的一个大漏斗，通常有一个角度可以在那里获得一些搜索引擎优化流量。
So I do think it applies to most companies.
所以我确实认为这适用于大多数公司。
I would say if you're an early product that the world's never seen, it's a brand new thing, there might be some creation, some demand creation you need to do, but most of the time there's existing demand in Google where you can harvest demand or there's queries that are related to your topic that you can start ranking for to start building brand awareness.
我想说，如果你是一个世界上从未见过的早期产品，它是一个全新的东西，你可能需要做一些创造，一些需求创造，但大多数时候谷歌中有现有的需求，你可以收获需求，或者有与你的主题相关的查询，你可以开始排名以开始建立品牌知名度。
So there's always some angle.
所以总有一些角度。
Luc Levesque: And then I kind of divide websites or online products into two categories.
Luc Levesque：然后我将网站或在线产品分为两类。
There's the ones which are smaller sites, small number of pages, very targeted at your product and don't have this kind of loop of creating new pages automatically.
有些网站较小，页面数量较少，非常针对您的产品，并且没有这种自动创建新页面的循环。
Most eCommerce sites actually have would a number of pages around the products and about us, those types of pages.
大多数电子商务网站实际上都有许多关于产品和关于我们的页面，这些类型的页面。
That's one type of sites.
这是网站的一种类型。
Let's say they have dozen pages.
假设它们有十几页。
And then there's other ones with thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of pages which are either user generated content like Tripadvisor and Pinterest and others, or marketplaces like Thumbtack and other types of websites like that.
还有其他拥有数千、数万、数十万、数百万页面的页面，这些页面要么是用户生成的内容，如 Tripadvisor 和 Pinterest 等，要么是市场，如 Thumbtack 和其他类型的网站。
Those are generally easier to see a huge amount of impact very quickly because there's such a large optimization surface and ideally it's growing and generating traffic automatically.
这些通常更容易很快地看到巨大的影响，因为有如此大的优化表面，并且理想情况下它会自动增长并产生流量。
Luc Levesque: I've always thought of LinkedIn as just such a great example of this where you have this viral loop where if you recall when it was just starting, everybody was getting these invites from LinkedIn.
Luc Levesque：我一直认为 LinkedIn 就是一个很好的例子，这里有一个病毒式循环，如果你还记得它刚开始的时候，每个人都会收到来自 LinkedIn 的邀请。
Those come and go.
那些来来去去。
You get an invite, you register, you don't.
你收到邀请，你注册，但你没有。
That happens.
就会发生这种情况。
But the byproduct is when people join, they create this beautiful lightning page, which is your profile that gets indexed.
但副产品是当人们加入时，他们创建了这个美丽的闪电页面，这是您的个人资料被索引的地方。
It's kind of like a viral loop feeding an SEO loop that continues to grow.
这有点像一个病毒循环，为一个持续增长的 SEO 循环提供动力。
So that's a good example of use generated content which kind of feeds on itself and grows.
这是使用生成内容的一个很好的例子，它可以自我滋养并增长。
So there's those two categories.
所以有这两类。
Going back to the first category, if you only have a small handful of pages, the way to think about that is you certainly want to optimize those pages, then you want to start creating content that speaks to your audience beyond that.
回到第一类，如果您只有一小部分页面，那么考虑这一点的方法是您当然想要优化这些页面，然后您想要开始创建与您的受众对话的内容。
So you need a content strategy, whether it's a blog or creating new parts of your site that address questions that your audience might have.
因此，您需要一个内容策略，无论是博客还是创建网站的新部分来解决受众可能提出的问题。
But generally speaking, I think there's an SEO play in any company and there's just different tactics, strategies, and approaches to get there.
但总的来说，我认为任何公司都存在 SEO 策略，只是有不同的策略、策略和方法来实现这一目标。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I never thought of it that way, that there's kind of these two buckets.
我从来没有这样想过，有这样两个桶。
So the first bucket is like you don't have a ton of pages that naturally are generated as a part of your experience.
因此，第一个桶就像您没有大量作为您的体验的一部分自然生成的页面。
And the second is you do.
第二个是你做的。
I guess in the second bucket I think of Reddit and Glassdoor and Quora, Tripadvisor, a great example, Pinterest.
我想在第二个桶中，我会想到 Reddit、Glassdoor 和 Quora、Tripadvisor、Pinterest 就是一个很好的例子。
In the first bucket is the way to generate pages.
第一个桶是生成页面的方式。
Basically, it's editorially write content and have people write things for you.
基本上，它是编辑性地编写内容并让人们为您编写内容。
Is that generally the strategy?
这通常是策略吗？
Luc Levesque: There's different ways of doing it, but a good content strategy is a kind of tried and true approach.
Luc Levesque：有不同的方法可以做到这一点，但良好的内容策略是一种经过考验的真实方法。
Definitely.
绝对是。
Lenny: And in that bucket of you don't naturally have a ton of pages, can you primarily grow through SEO?
Lenny：在你这个群体中，你自然不会有大量的页面，你能主要通过搜索引擎优化来成长吗？
Or is SEO always going to be this minority channel and you have to find something else?
或者 SEO 总是会成为少数渠道，而你必须寻找其他东西？
Luc Levesque: No, it can be a big channel.
Luc Levesque：不，它可以是一个大渠道。
This is also about creating content, but it's not your users creating the content.
这也是关于创建内容，但不是您的用户创建内容。
You have to go create the content and have some high quality answer to a question that's being asked on Google.
你必须去创建内容，并对 Google 上提出的问题提供高质量的答案。
I think one thing to keep in mind with SEO is entire industries are based off of single keywords.
我认为关于 SEO 需要记住的一件事是整个行业都是基于单个关键词的。
I remember when I was in the travel industry that literally companies were bought and sold based on one keyword rank.
我记得当我从事旅游业时，公司实际上是根据一个关键词排名进行买卖的。
So it's not like, "Oh, it's a little bit of traffic." And I think this is a bit unintuitive with growth.
所以这并不是“哦，有点流量”。我认为这对于增长来说有点不直观。
A lot of people, they'll think of growth as linear or it's another channel, it's another thing.
很多人会认为增长是线性的，或者是另一个渠道，这是另一回事。
I mean, growth done right is exponential.
我的意思是，正确的增长是指数级的。
It literally is company changing.
这实际上是公司的变革。
Luc Levesque: When you're talking specifically about SEO, keep in mind the world is searching for that thing, targeted on that one keyword and likely you're clicking the number one search result.
Luc Levesque：当您具体谈论 SEO 时，请记住，全世界都在搜索该东西，针对该关键字，并且您可能正在点击排名第一的搜索结果。
So getting that number one spot is not like, "Oh, that's a little bit of traffic." You can literally build an entire business around that first spot.
因此，获得第一名并不像“哦，这只是一点点流量。”您实际上可以围绕第一个位置建立整个业务。
So don't think that's...
所以不要以为那是...
Well, maybe it is commonly known, I'm not sure, but it's definitely something that is non-obvious or intuitive I think to most people.
好吧，也许这是众所周知的，我不确定，但我认为对大多数人来说，这绝对是不明显或直观的东西。
And if you have an entire SEO team working on one keyword, I don't think that's crazy because a small number of keywords can define an entire industry or a business.
如果你有一个完整的 SEO 团队致力于一个关键字，我认为这并不疯狂，因为少量的关键字可以定义整个行业或企业。
Lenny: Is there an example of that sort of situation when keyword's building a massive company?
莱尼：当关键字建立一家大型公司时，有这种情况的例子吗？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I mean there's a lot I'm sure.
Luc Levesque：是的，我的意思是我确信有很多事情。
I can speak to my own company that I sold to Tripadvisor.
我可以谈谈我自己卖给 Tripadvisor 的公司。
It was called TravelPod.
它被称为 TravelPod。
It was a travel blogging website where you can think WordPress, but for travel, which I started earlier.
这是一个旅行博客网站，你可以在其中想到 WordPress，但针对旅行，我之前就开始了。
It was the first site to do that.
这是第一个这样做的网站。
I made the mistake of not knowing SEO or growth before I sold the company.
在出售公司之前，我犯了一个不了解搜索引擎优化或增长的错误。
And so that was a great learning for me.
所以这对我来说是一个很好的学习。
When I went in, this is a story where we're looking to acquire another site and I thought the product was pretty poor.
当我进去时，这是一个我们正在寻求收购另一个网站的故事，我认为该产品非常糟糕。
I remember talking to the founder and thinking...
我记得与创始人交谈并思考......
He'd asked me if we'd want to acquire it, and, "The product's terrible.
他问我是否愿意收购它，然后说：“这个产品太糟糕了。
Why would I want to acquire that?" He's like, "Yeah, they're 10 times bigger than you." And, "What?" That was when I realized, "Okay, we've been building a great product and great engineering culture and it is important, but you really need to know this growth stuff." So that's actually the moment I shifted to, "All right, we have to really know these growth levers."
我为什么要收购它？”他说，“是的，他们比你大十倍。”然后，“什么？”就在那时我意识到，“好吧，我们一直在打造一个伟大的产品和伟大的工程文化，这很重要，但你真的需要了解这些增长的东西。”所以这实际上是我转向的那一刻，“好吧，我们必须真正了解这些增长杠杆。”
Luc Levesque: In that space, the number one keyword was Travel Blog.
Luc Levesque：在这个领域，排名第一的关键词是旅游博客。
And so owning that was a big deal and we did not own it.
因此，拥有它是一件大事，但我们并不拥有它。
I think we ranked number two for a really long time.
我认为我们在很长一段时间内排名第二。
I can't remember if we got it in the end, but that's just one example where...
我不记得我们最终是否得到了它，但这只是一个例子......
And there was many, many travel businesses where I always loved looking at a business and trying to figure out, "What's their growth loop?
有很多很多旅游企业，我总是喜欢观察企业并试图弄清楚，“他们的增长循环是什么？
How did they do that?" And it's not like, "Oh, it's a great business.
他们是怎么做到的？”这并不是说，“哦，这是一项伟大的生意。
It just grew." Most of the time it's price line crushed it at SEM.
它只是在增长。”大多数时候，它的价格线在 SEM 上被压垮了。
Facebook crushed it at a viral loop where you got tagged in a photo, you got an email and you had to go register because there's a photo of you somewhere you really want to see.
Facebook 以病毒式循环的方式摧毁了它，你在照片中被标记，你收到一封电子邮件，你必须去注册，因为在你真正想看的地方有一张你的照片。
Tripadvisor did a great job at SEO.
Tripadvisor 在 SEO 方面做得非常出色。
In , it's just one really strong channel that propelled the company forward.
在 ，这只是推动公司前进的一个真正强大的渠道。
And in this case, it can literally come down to one keyword like we had at TravelPod.
在这种情况下，它实际上可以归结为一个关键字，就像我们在 TravelPod 中所做的那样。
Lenny: So maybe it's a good time just to give a people a mental model of the different channels/loops that exist.
莱尼：所以也许现在是给人们一个存在的不同渠道/循环的心智模型的好时机。
So you've talked about SEO is one, paid search is one.
所以你谈到了 SEO 是其中之一，付费搜索是其中之一。
What's the collection for people to think about?
值得人们思考的收藏是什么？
Usually as you said, one of the use is the primary source of growth for a company.
通常正如您所说，其中一项用途是公司增长的主要来源。
Luc Levesque: Yeah, there's a variety of them.
Luc Levesque：是的，有很多种。
I think you have to look at where the intent is right now.
我认为你现在必须看看意图在哪里。
It does change over time, but you have social channels like TikTok, Instagram.
它确实会随着时间的推移而改变，但你有 TikTok、Instagram 等社交渠道。
Influencers are a great area to engage with there.
有影响力的人是一个很好的接触领域。
You have SEO, you have search.
你有搜索引擎优化，你有搜索。
I think ChatGPT is another upcoming one that we might want to talk about a little bit where I do think we've never seen that kind of growth for search before and that's a platform that we have to start thinking about how do we optimize for it.
我认为 ChatGPT 是另一个即将推出的平台，我们可能想稍微讨论一下，我认为我们以前从未见过搜索的这种增长，这是一个我们必须开始思考如何优化它的平台。
Google just announced there are recent changes.
谷歌刚刚宣布最近有一些变化。
They're going to be putting in an AI box at the top, the searchers also, how do you optimize in a world where it's not so much about optimizing for the platform, but teaching the AI what you do and why you're the best in the world at it.
他们将在顶部放置一个人工智能框，搜索者也是如此，在这个世界中，你如何优化，而不是针对平台进行优化，而是教人工智能你做什么以及为什么你是世界上最好的。
So that's another whole area that we could talk about, but that's a big channel I think that that's growing.
这是我们可以讨论的另一个整体领域，但我认为这是一个正在增长的大渠道。
Luc Levesque: Viral loops are always a powerful thing if you can get them to work.
Luc Levesque：如果你能让病毒式循环发挥作用，它总是一个强大的东西。
That's more about psychology and channel optimization, where you want people to be incentivized to share the product that you have with their friends and then to have their friends come back and register.
这更多的是关于心理学和渠道优化，您希望人们受到激励与他们的朋友分享您拥有的产品，然后让他们的朋友回来注册。
So you can have one viral loop, you can have secondary viral loops, you can bolt viral loops on your existing products.
因此，您可以拥有一个病毒循环，也可以拥有二级病毒循环，还可以将病毒循环固定在现有产品上。
There's different ways of doing this.
有不同的方法可以做到这一点。
And then just backing up.
然后只需备份即可。
When I think about growth, I don't think about a specific...
当我思考增长时，我不会考虑具体的...
It's not growth equals SEO and Instagram.
增长并不等于 SEO 和 Instagram。
For me, growth equals whatever it takes to move the needle.
对我来说，增长就等于不惜一切代价推动发展。
So I get this question all the time, "How do you build a growth team?
所以我经常被问到这个问题：“你如何建立一支增长团队？
What does a growth team do?" And I say whatever it takes.
增长团队是做什么的？”我说无论需要什么。
That could be zero to one building a new product.
开发新产品可能是零到一。
It could be M&A, it could be SEO, it could be social, it could be onboarding.
可能是并购，可能是搜索引擎优化，可能是社交，也可能是入职。
Luc Levesque: I think that's a better framework to look at.
Luc Levesque：我认为这是一个更好的框架。
And then if you look at it through that lens, then partnerships easily folds into that where I've seen a lot of businesses get very big on just really clever partnerships, either strategic or broad kind of affiliate based partnerships.
然后，如果你从这个角度来看，那么合作伙伴关系很容易就会变成这样，我看到很多企业通过真正聪明的合作伙伴关系变得非常大，无论是战略合作伙伴关系还是广泛的基于联盟的合作伙伴关系。
So there's a lot of channels.
所以渠道很多。
I definitely wouldn't restrict the scope of a growth team to just a small subset, but have a very wide funnel or at least strategy in terms of just test a lot of different things and go after the channels that work and pivot when it does, and then really lean into the one or two or three that really work because sometimes that's all it takes for business.
我绝对不会将增长团队的范围限制在一小部分，而是拥有一个非常广泛的漏斗或至少是测试许多不同事物的策略，并追求有效的渠道并在有效时进行调整，然后真正倾向于真正有效的一两个或三个，因为有时这就是业务所需要的全部。
Lenny: Well, you definitely nerd sniped me with the ChatGPT, so let's just spend some time there.
Lenny：好吧，你这个书呆子确实用 ChatGPT 狙击了我，所以我们就在那里花点时间吧。
I think this relates to just the general sense that SEO is always changing and it feels like this is an SEM I guess in this case too.
我认为这与 SEO 总是在变化的一般感觉有关，我想在这种情况下，感觉就像是 SEM。
And ChatGPT and Bard, I guess, is maybe the latest change.
我想，ChatGPT 和 Bard 可能是最新的变化。
So what should we know there?
那么我们应该知道什么呢？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, I think we're all still trying to figure it out.
Luc Levesque：是的，我想我们都还在努力解决这个问题。
I was at Google IO last week or the week before.
上周或前一周我参加了 Google IO。
As soon as I saw the search result with the big box of AI, answers at the top, having done this for so long, I immediately knew the impact that I think is about to come.
当我看到搜索结果，上面有人工智能的大盒子，答案在顶部，做了这么久，我立即知道我认为即将到来的影响。
I've seen this play out in travel where Google acquired ITA and did flight search and hotel search.
我在旅游业中看到了这种情况，谷歌收购了 ITA，并进行了航班搜索和酒店搜索。
Generally, it's great for users and great for Google and the search engines, but makes it a little bit difficult for the publishers and the sites that are adding value to the ecosystem through being ranked in search results.
一般来说，这对用户、谷歌和搜索引擎来说都很好，但对于出版商和通过在搜索结果中排名为生态系统增加价值的网站来说有点困难。
Luc Levesque: So what we're about to see is basically Google, what they showed was a big box on top of the search results that answers the query directly.
Luc Levesque：所以我们将看到的基本上是谷歌，他们展示的是搜索结果顶部的一个大框，可以直接回答查询。
So if you think about that, that means that there's a lot of queries right now that users are clicking through down on the organic links and getting their answer there, which will be answered directly in the search result.
因此，如果您考虑一下，这意味着现在有很多查询，用户点击有机链接并在那里获得答案，这些答案将直接在搜索结果中得到解答。
We've seen this play out over the last five to 10 years where more and more answers are being shown at the top.
在过去的五到十年里，我们已经看到了这种情况的发生，越来越多的答案显示在顶部。
Every time something changes, entire industries are disrupted or are changed.
每当有事情发生变化时，整个行业就会被扰乱或改变。
And I think that's going to happen again.
我认为这种情况还会再次发生。
Luc Levesque: So there's different types of keywords.
Luc Levesque：所以关键词有不同类型。
There's transactional ones like e-commerce keywords with purchase intent.
有交易性的关键词，例如具有购买意图的电子商务关键词。
There's navigational ones where you're trying to get somewhere.
有导航功能，您可以尝试到达某个地方。
And there's informational keywords, which is, "I have a question.
还有信息性关键字，即“我有一个问题。
I'm looking for an answer." It's pretty broad.
我正在寻找答案。”它的范围相当广泛。
It's a big area.
这是一个很大的区域。
I think that last category of keywords is particularly at risk.
我认为最后一类关键词尤其面临风险。
So if anybody listening to this is currently getting traffic on those, you should start thinking about what does that mean when things start changing.
因此，如果任何收听此内容的人目前正在获得这些流量，您应该开始思考当事情开始发生变化时这意味着什么。
And I think the changes will be...
我认为变化将是......
We'll probably start seeing things shift to paid.
我们可能会开始看到事情转向付费。
You have to pay for that free traffic.
您必须为免费流量付费。
Luc Levesque: The second one is there may just be a case where those keywords just don't get many clicks anymore.
Luc Levesque：第二个可能是这些关键字不再获得很多点击的情况。
You might drop down to a very small number of clicks, if at all, because questions will get answered directly in the search results.
如果有的话，您可能会减少点击次数，因为问题将直接在搜索结果中得到解答。
So it's a big shift.
所以这是一个很大的转变。
We have to see how things land, but that's, I think over the next 12 to 24 months, if history repeats itself, we'll see that channel change.
我们必须看看事情如何发展，但我认为在接下来的 12 到 24 个月内，如果历史重演，我们将看到渠道发生变化。
We've seen this play out in all the different channels.
我们已经在所有不同的渠道中看到了这种情况的发生。
They kind of evolve generally.
它们总体上是进化的。
You can't blame the companies are doing what they have to do.
你不能责怪这些公司正在做他们必须做的事情。
ChatGPT is now 50% of my daily searches and not Google.
现在，我日常搜索的 50% 都是 ChatGPT，而不是 Google。
So I think Google has to react and this is what we'll see.
所以我认为谷歌必须做出反应，这就是我们将看到的。
So from a growth perspective, definitely something to start to think about.
因此，从增长的角度来看，绝对是值得开始考虑的事情。
Lenny: Super fascinating.
莱尼：超级迷人。
I think about my newsletter and now Google suck it all up and just tell you all the answers.
我想到了我的时事通讯，现在谷歌把它全部吸收了，只是告诉你所有的答案。
Great.
伟大的。
Good news for me.
对我来说是个好消息。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And change is great.
变化是巨大的。
Things don't-
事情不-
Luc Levesque: It's exciting.
吕克·莱维斯克：这很令人兴奋。
It's exciting.
这很令人兴奋。
I'm just geeking out on growth a little bit, we haven't had a big platform change in a long time.
我只是在关注增长，我们已经很长时间没有进行过大的平台变化了。
So I'm like, "All right, cool.
所以我想，“好吧，酷。
Let's go see what we can do here.
让我们看看我们能在这里做什么。
How do you optimize this?
你如何优化这个？
How do you get listed if you can?" We're not sure where the placements will be, but that will be the new game.
如果可以的话，如何上榜？”我们不确定放置位置在哪里，但这将是新游戏。
Lenny: Yeah, there's actually a lennybot.com that is a GPT bot trained on my content that there's a newsletter post about how it was all built so you could build your own.
Lenny：是的，实际上有一个 lennybot.com，它是一个根据我的内容进行训练的 GPT 机器人，其中有一篇新闻通讯文章介绍了它的全部构建方式，以便您可以构建自己的机器人。
And so I think my new goal is going to have to convince people to go to lennybot.com instead of Google.
因此，我认为我的新目标必须说服人们访问 lennybot.com 而不是 Google。
Wish me luck.
祝我好运。
Luc Levesque: Hey, you got to lean into it.
Luc Levesque：嘿，你必须要努力。
Yeah, we have a shop.ai, this great AI-based shopping engine.
是的，我们有一个 shop.ai，这是一个很棒的基于人工智能的购物引擎。
And I'll tell you, I bought so much on it.
我会告诉你，我在上面买了很多东西。
It's so good.
太好了。
The more you use these technologies, the more you realize how good they are.
您使用这些技术的次数越多，您就越意识到它们的优点。
And that's something biggest coming.
这是最重要的事情即将到来。
It's not just, "Oh yeah, there's another change." I was summarizing the Google change is to some people and originally was thinking this is the biggest change in the last 10 years.
这不仅仅是“哦，是的，还有另一个变化”。我总结了谷歌的变化对某些人来说，最初认为这是过去 10 年来最大的变化。
And then when I reflected on the last 10 years, I thought this is actually the biggest change since the inception of Google actually.
然后当我回顾过去的十年时，我认为这实际上是谷歌成立以来最大的变化。
I don't think we've seen something as profound as what's coming.
我认为我们还没有看到像即将发生的事情那样深刻的事情。
And you really need to get ready for it.
你真的需要为此做好准备。
Lenny: Yeah, I've been using ChatGPT for helping me with interview questions actually, and once in a while there's like a really good one.
Lenny：是的，实际上我一直在使用 ChatGPT 来帮助我解决面试问题，偶尔会出现一个非常好的问题。
Lenny: So thank you ChatGPT, bringing me good things also.
Lenny：所以谢谢ChatGPT，也给我带来了好东西。
Maybe one more question along these lines around kind of connecting advisorship in SEO.
也许还有一个关于 SEO 中的连接咨询的问题。
Would you suggest when you're starting to think about SEO, starting to invest in SEO, you might be listening to this feeling like, "I got to think about SEO," does it make sense to bring on, say, SEO advisor like you?
您是否会建议，当您开始考虑 SEO、开始投资 SEO 时，您可能会听到这样的感觉，“我必须考虑 SEO”，那么聘请像您这样的 SEO 顾问是否有意义？
I know you're not available currently, but other folks like you or are an agency that is really good at this stuff or bring on someone full time?
我知道您目前没空，但其他像您一样的人或者是一家真正擅长这件事的机构，或者聘请了全职人员？
Do you have any kind of frameworks for thinking about which direction to go?
您有什么框架来思考要走哪个方向？
Luc Levesque: It's hard for an agency or a pure advisor without internal help to do a really good job without internal talent at the center.
Luc Levesque：如果没有内部人才作为中心，对于没有内部帮助的机构或纯粹的顾问来说，很难做好工作。
So I would say I would start with just hire somebody internally and give them the mandate and incentivize them correctly to go and own this channel.
所以我想说，我会首先在内部雇用一个人，给他们授权，并正确地激励他们去拥有这个频道。
Even if they don't know SEO, my advice would be get an engineer, get somebody who is just a relentless doer who wants to learn this and surround them with great advisors that I've just seen that work really well.
即使他们不了解搜索引擎优化，我的建议也是找一位工程师，找一个想要学习这一点的不懈实干家，并让他们身边有我刚刚看到的优秀顾问，这些顾问工作得非常好。
Luc Levesque: There are some good agencies out there.
Luc Levesque：有一些不错的机构。
Agencies will be working with multiple companies, so it's a little bit harder to get the same impact from an agency.
代理机构将与多家公司合作，因此从代理机构获得相同的影响有点困难。
It can work sometimes.
有时它可以起作用。
But my preference is generally a last resort would be an agency.
但我的偏好通常是最后的手段是代理机构。
And I'd much rather have somebody who's internal who knows the business, who knows the keywords, who can have the knowledge internally inside the company permanently and help grow a team around them and have succession in place and a proper team so that you're not too dependent on this one person.
我更希望有一个了解业务、了解关键词、能够永久掌握公司内部知识并帮助围绕他们发展团队的内部人士，并拥有适当的继任者和适当的团队，这样你就不会太依赖这个人。
But that would be my go-to.
但这将是我的首选。
And then if you're really stuck, you can use agencies, but my default would be having somebody internal supplemented with agencies if you have to.
然后，如果你真的陷入困境，你可以使用代理机构，但我的默认设置是让内部人员在必要时通过代理机构进行补充。
Sorry, SEO is very specific.
抱歉，SEO 非常具体。
I mean, it's a very tight channel that knowing certain things about it can have a big impact.
我的意思是，这是一个非常紧密的渠道，了解它的某些事情可以产生很大的影响。
I think you do want people that have that experience that can bring that in from the outside to augmenting internal teams.
我认为你确实需要拥有这种经验的人，可以将外部的经验引入到内部团队中。
It'll take a really long time to learn it.
真的要花很长时间才能学会。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I was going to ask that.
我正想问这个。
So you ideally want to find someone that's done it before that isn't just a relentless learner, but is that plus, has done SEO in the past?
因此，您理想情况下希望找到以前做过这件事的人，而不仅仅是一个不懈的学习者，而且是过去做过 SEO 的人吗？
Luc Levesque: Oh, yeah.
吕克·莱维斯克：哦，是的。
Ideally, you hire an amazing SEO person who can bring internal.
理想情况下，您聘请一位出色的 SEO 人员，可以带来内部。
Second would be somebody amazing who can get things done, surround them with advisors.
其次是那些能够把事情做好的人，周围都是顾问。
And then in my stack rank, the third would be agencies.
然后在我的堆栈排名中，第三位是代理机构。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And then the other kind of common issue with SEOs, it takes a long time to show impact.
SEO 的另一种常见问题是，需要很长时间才能显现出影响。
Do you have just a rule of thumb of just give them this much time to see if they can make an impact?
您是否有一个经验法则，就是给他们这么多时间来看看他们是否能产生影响？
Luc Levesque: I'd say a few things.
Luc Levesque：我想说几句话。
I'd say if you already have content and pages that are pretty good and getting a decent amount of traffic, it doesn't necessarily have to take a long time.
我想说，如果您已经拥有相当不错的内容和页面并且获得了相当多的流量，那么不一定需要花费很长时间。
So that would be my first reaction.
这就是我的第一反应。
It can take a long time.
这可能需要很长时间。
Generally, it takes a long time when you have to build new content.
一般来说，当你必须构建新内容时，需要很长时间。
So the way to think about Google is it is going to take your content, it's going to show it to its users, people that are searching, and it's going to determine which piece of content is the best to ranked highly.
因此，考虑谷歌的方式是，它将获取你的内容，将其展示给用户，正在搜索的人，并将确定哪一段内容最适合排名靠前。
It's not just about little tricks and links and keyword ratios.
这不仅仅是小技巧、链接和关键词比率。
Those days are over.
那些日子已经结束了。
Those do matter, but it's not purely about that.
这些确实很重要，但不仅仅是这个。
And if you have a new piece of content, it takes time for Google to build enough trust to say, "Okay, I'm going to start showing this to users now" and then start collecting user feedback and then rank it appropriately.
如果你有一个新的内容，谷歌需要时间来建立足够的信任来说，“好吧，我现在要开始向用户展示它”，然后开始收集用户反馈，然后对其进行适当的排名。
That can take some time.
这可能需要一些时间。
Luc Levesque: But if you have existing pages that are ranking eight and they're already on the first page, it doesn't always happen.
Luc Levesque：但是，如果您现有的页面排名第八并且它们已经位于第一页，那么这种情况并不总是会发生。
But I've certainly seen it, in fact more common than not that you could have sometimes hundreds of percentages of lift very quickly.
但我确实见过这种情况，事实上，更常见的是，有时您可以很快获得数百%的升力。
And it depends what you're starting with, is probably the right way to think about it.
这取决于你从什么开始，这可能是正确的思考方式。
So if I'm trying to summarize it, I would say 12 months is probably max.
因此，如果我试图总结一下，我会说 12 个月可能是最长的。
If you can't see impact in 12 months, there's something wrong.
如果您在 12 个月内看不到效果，则说明有问题。
If you have existing content, it could happen pretty early.
如果您有现有内容，那么它可能会很早就发生。
It could happen on day one.
这可能会在第一天发生。
Actually I've seen that happen.
事实上我已经看到这种情况发生了。
If you have to build new parts of the site, it can take months.
如果您必须构建网站的新部分，可能需要几个月的时间。
I've seen that happen in companies I've worked with where I think it would be like a quarter, we had to wait till we saw a big lift.
我在与我合作过的公司中看到过这种情况，我认为大约是一个季度，我们必须等到看到大幅提升。
So it's somewhere between three to 12 months.
所以这个时间大约在 3 到 12 个月之间。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
That's really helpful.
这真的很有帮助。
Okay, so final topic/final question.
好的，最后一个主题/最后一个问题。
You've had a truly incredible career.
你的职业生涯确实令人难以置信。
You've worked with incredible companies, incredible leaders.
您曾与出色的公司、出色的领导者合作过。
I'm looking at your site here in a site window and you're like, here's a picture of you and Zuck.
我在网站窗口中查看您的网站，您会想，这是您和扎克的照片。
Here's a picture of you and Toby from Shopify, and there's more.
这是您和 Toby 在 Shopify 上的照片，还有更多内容。
I'm curious what you believe has been key to your success and your career success that you suggest listeners who want to have some measure of similar success do.
我很好奇您认为什么是您成功和职业成功的关键，您建议那些想要获得某种程度类似成功的听众这样做。
Luc Levesque: It's probably a bunch of things we could talk about here.
Luc Levesque：我们可能可以在这里讨论很多事情。
Yeah, this is the obvious thing is I think you've just got to love what you do.
是的，这是显而易见的事情，我认为你必须热爱你所做的事情。
You got to work hard.
你必须努力工作。
You have to have impact.
你必须有影响力。
Certainly at the end of the day in growth, that's all that will matter.
当然，归根结底，成长才是最重要的。
If I think back to specific things that I do though to pick one thing that's been very important for me throughout my journey is the art of self-reflection.
如果我回想一下我所做的具体事情，那么我会选择在我的整个旅程中对我来说非常重要的一件事，那就是自我反省的艺术。
And coaches.
还有教练。
I've had coaches my whole career.
我的整个职业生涯都有教练。
But the macro theme is you're constantly iterating, experimenting, and becoming the best you can be in your career also as a dad and as a husband, and of course for your own personal health.
但宏观主题是，你不断地迭代、尝试，并成为你职业生涯中最好的人，作为一个父亲和一个丈夫，当然也是为了你自己的个人健康。
But that reflection is so important.
但这种反思非常重要。
I've leveraged many, many different coaches over the years and now do a lot of self-reflection through a morning routine that I have and that I've been doing for quite some time that has been a big unlock for me.
多年来，我已经利用了很多很多不同的教练，现在通过我已经做的早上例行工作做了很多自我反思，而且我已经这样做了很长一段时间，这对我来说是一个很大的释放。
Luc Levesque: The biggest, most important part of that morning routine is dedicating an hour aside to really think about, "What's going well?
吕克·莱维斯克（Luc Levesque）：早晨例行公事中最重要、最重要的部分是花一个小时的时间来真正思考“什么进展顺利？
What's not going well?
什么事情进展不顺利？
What am I screwing up?
我搞砸了什么？
Well, why am I screwing it up?" Which is often more important than, "What am I screwing up?" And of course, "What am I going to do about it?" But as long as you're learning and iterating every day, then you're just making constant progress towards your goals.
好吧，我为什么要搞砸它？”这通常比“我搞砸了什么？”更重要。当然，“我该怎么办？”但只要你每天都在学习和迭代，那么你就会朝着你的目标不断进步。
It's something I do that I love doing.
这是我喜欢做的事情。
I love thinking.
我喜欢思考。
So I literally can just sit there and think for hours actually.
所以我实际上可以坐在那里思考几个小时。
I have a dashboard on all the areas that I'm focusing on with red, yellow, green, and just constantly revving on what am I working on improving, what am I doing, what experiments am I running and where am I doing well and where am I not doing well and how can I be better in all areas of my life, including being a leader.
我有一个仪表板，上面标有红色、黄色、绿色的所有我关注的领域，并且不断地加速我正在努力改进什么，我在做什么，我正在进行哪些实验，我在哪里做得好，我在哪里做得不好，以及我如何才能在生活的各个领域变得更好，包括成为领导者。
There's a lot of different things to it, but I think that's really important and something that I've learned over the years that is probably the most valuable to have as a skill.
它有很多不同的东西，但我认为这非常重要，也是我多年来学到的东西，这可能是最有价值的技能。
Lenny: I definitely want to spend more time on this.
Lenny：我确实想在这上面花更多的时间。
So you said you sit for an hour reflecting on what's going well, what's not going well.
所以你说你坐了一个小时反思什么进展顺利，什么进展不顺利。
Is there more you can share about how you accomplish that, how you find time to do this for an hour?
您是否可以分享更多关于您如何实现这一目标，您如何找到时间做一个小时的事情？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, it sounds crazy when you say it, but I do.
Luc Levesque：是的，你这么说听起来很疯狂，但我确实这么认为。
So I wake up at 5:00.
所以我在 5:00 起床。
I work out.
我锻炼身体。
So I do cardio, I do some exercise.
所以我做有氧运动，做一些运动。
There's this great book called Spark, which is all around the neuroscience of exercise and I really learned a lot from that in terms of having this great morning routine that really boots you up.
有一本很棒的书叫《Spark》，这本书是关于运动的神经科学的，我确实从中学到了很多东西，因为有了这个真正能让你振奋的早晨例行公事。
I kind of call it my bootloader.
我称之为我的引导加载程序。
When I start in the day, if I go through my bootloader, I have just a much better day.
当我开始新的一天时，如果我通过引导加载程序，我的一天会更好。
Luc Levesque: So exercise, stretching, meditation, and then I do a cold plunge now.
Luc Levesque：所以锻炼、伸展身体、冥想，然后我现在会进行一次冷水潜水。
So I do a bunch of different things.
所以我做了很多不同的事情。
But then I do some reading, but I do carve aside one hour where I go through...
但后来我做了一些阅读，但我确实留出了一个小时来阅读……
And this is probably important and it's where I've landed, but structured self reflections.
这可能很重要，这就是我所着陆的地方，但结构化的自我反思。
That's why I have this dashboard.
这就是我有这个仪表板的原因。
I have certain areas that I think about what's going well, what's not.
我在某些方面会考虑哪些方面进展顺利，哪些方面进展不佳。
I track all the experiments I'm writing.
我跟踪我正在写的所有实验。
I'm just really passionate about if you're going to do something, try to do it as best as you can.
我真的很热衷于如果你要做某件事，就尽力做到最好。
This is a habit that has allowed me to sharpen my skills in certain areas.
这个习惯使我能够提高某些领域的技能。
Lenny: What are some of these things you're working on?
莱尼：你正在做哪些事情？
If you can share what's on this dashboard, how can people imagine what this might be?
如果您可以分享此仪表板上的内容，人们怎么能想象这可能是什么？
Luc Levesque: So there's a lot of personal stuff on it, but it literally is broken down between being a better friend, better husband, better dad, and then better leader.
吕克·莱维斯克：所以里面有很多个人的东西，但实际上它分为更好的朋友、更好的丈夫、更好的父亲和更好的领导者。
And so on the personal side, I've been known to work a lot of times.
因此，就个人而言，我经常工作。
Balance is always hard to find.
平衡总是很难找到。
From being a dad and then thinking about how to be better there, I realized about six months ago that I've never actually asked for feedback on how I'm doing.
从成为一名父亲，然后思考如何做得更好，大约六个月前，我意识到我从未真正要求过关于我的表现的反馈。
So I asked my kids six months ago, I asked both of them independently, "What's one thing I can do to do more of or do less of to be a better dad?" And they were kind of caught off guard by it.
所以六个月前我问我的孩子们，我独立地问他们：“为了成为一个更好的父亲，我可以多做或少做哪一件事？”他们对此有点措手不及。
My son's 15 and my other son is 12.
我儿子 15 岁，另一个儿子 12 岁。
And I said, "Take some time to think about it." And after about a month, my son came back and said, "Dad, I got one." He said, "I want to spend more time with you."
我说：“花点时间考虑一下。”大约一个月后，我儿子回来说：“爸爸，我得到了一个。”他说：“我想和你一起度过更多的时间。”
Luc Levesque: So that was very helpful for me to hear.
Luc Levesque：这对我来说非常有帮助。
I'm big on routines and habits to make sure that things that you want to do are repeatable and it's not one-off things.
我非常注重例程和习惯，以确保你想做的事情是可重复的，而不是一次性的事情。
So ever since that day, I've now have a daddy date if you want to call it.
所以从那天起，如果你愿意的话，我现在有一个爸爸约会。
But every two weeks we do one-on-one time together with each of the boys.
但每两周我们都会与每个男孩进行一对一的交流。
They get to pick what we do just so we have that consistent, whether it's dinner or play basketball in the front.
他们可以选择我们做什么，这样我们就可以保持一致，无论是晚餐还是在前面打篮球。
But it's all about feedback.
但这一切都与反馈有关。
So that's one example on the personal side.
这是个人方面的一个例子。
Lenny: This reminds me of a tweet I just saw where someone said that the only people that are going to remember that you worked late for many nights is your kids.
莱尼：这让我想起了我刚刚看到的一条推文，其中有人说，唯一会记得你工作很多晚的人就是你的孩子。
Luc Levesque: Wow.
吕克·莱维斯克：哇。
Wow.
哇。
That's deep.
那很深。
I like that a lot.
我非常喜欢这样。
Lenny: As a soon to be parent, that's going to stick with me.
莱尼：作为一个即将成为父母的人，这一点将永远伴随着我。
Luc Levesque: Wow, I like that a lot.
Luc Levesque：哇，我非常喜欢这个。
So it's tough, right?
所以这很难，对吧？
It's tough to balance it all out.
很难平衡这一切。
It's very difficult because you want excel at everything you do in life.
这非常困难，因为你想在生活中所做的每一件事上都表现出色。
So that reflection helps, be it check-in as well of how am I doing in all these areas?
因此，这种反思会有所帮助，无论是检查我在所有这些领域的表现如何？
And that I find the color coding is helpful for that too, of just doing a bit of a gut check and asking for that feedback.
我发现颜色编码对此也很有帮助，只需进行一些内部检查并寻求反馈即可。
Lenny: So it also makes me think about, I was watching a Jeff Bezos interview and ask him what his morning routine was and he said that he just likes to putter around.
莱尼：所以这也让我想到，我在观看杰夫·贝索斯的采访并问他早上的例行公事是什么，他说他只是喜欢闲逛。
he likes to just sit around, talk to his kids, read the newspaper.
他喜欢坐下来，和孩子们聊天，看报纸。
He doesn't book any meetings in the morning.
他没有预订早上的任何会议。
He just finds he just needs a little flex time at the beginning.
他只是发现一开始他只需要一点弹性时间。
Luc Levesque: Totally.
吕克·莱维斯克：完全可以。
Before I became a dad, I read somewhere that one of the most impactful things you can do as a father is just be there for dinner every night.
在我成为一名父亲之前，我在某处读到，作为一名父亲，你能做的最有影响力的事情之一就是每天晚上在那里吃晚饭。
So I have been there for 15 years every single night.
15年来，我每晚都在那里。
But it was a good reminder it's not enough.
但这是一个很好的提醒，但这还不够。
Having dinner is important with your family, but in our case there's more you can do.
与家人共进晚餐很重要，但在我们的情况下，您可以做更多事情。
And just getting that feedback and doing some reprioritization is always important.
获得反馈并重新调整优先顺序总是很重要的。
Lenny: Speaking of dinners, and maybe just as a last question, I know you do this really interesting thing where you have dinners with interesting people.
莱尼：说到晚餐，也许只是最后一个问题，我知道你会做一件非常有趣的事情，与有趣的人共进晚餐。
You just kind of invite them to your house.
你只是邀请他们来你家。
I don't know if interesting is the right way to describe it, but just kind of interesting people, prominent people.
我不知道“有趣”是否是描述它的正确方式，但只是一些有趣的人，杰出的人。
Can you just talk about what that is and what you think about and the benefits of doing something like that?
您能谈谈那是什么、您的想法以及这样做的好处吗？
Luc Levesque: I think interesting is the right way to think about it.
Luc Levesque：我认为有趣是思考这个问题的正确方式。
Luc Levesque: I started this when I was in Ottawa with a bunch of founders there.
Luc Levesque：当我在渥太华时，我和一群创始人一起开始了这个项目。
It's become one of my favorite things to do.
这已经成为我最喜欢做的事情之一。
Honestly, it's like the bright spot in my month that, I call them guilds.
老实说，这就像我这个月的亮点，我称之为公会。
So the word guild is with the builders.
所以公会这个词与建造者有关。
That's how it originally started.
事情最初就是这样开始的。
So Guild Night is what I call it.
所以我称之为公会之夜。
The idea is basically all interesting people doing interesting things actually want to spend time with each other.
这个想法基本上是所有有趣的人做有趣的事情实际上都想彼此共度时光。
That's why I'm actually surprised more people don't do this.
这就是为什么我对更多人不这样做感到惊讶。
But I'll basically have interesting people come, usually five or six.
但我基本上会邀请一些有趣的人来，通常是五六个。
We'll sit around talking about specific topics.
我们将坐下来讨论特定的话题。
So I do one for consumer product, I do one for SEO, I do one for growth leaders and just have really smart, interesting people come and we'll talk about different topics that are relevant.
因此，我为消费品做了一项，为搜索引擎优化做了一项，为增长领导者做了一项，然后有非常聪明、有趣的人来，我们将讨论相关的不同主题。
Luc Levesque: Sometimes we'll pick a topic, so we'll have a group and then we'll say, "Hey, we want to talk about AI." So one of the advantages of being in the Bay Area is you can find three or four people that likely wrote some of the core code in Google or in AI, and then they'll join.
Luc Levesque：有时我们会选择一个主题，所以我们会组成一个小组，然后我们会说，“嘿，我们想谈论人工智能。”因此，在湾区的优势之一是你可以找到三四个可能在谷歌或人工智能领域编写过一些核心代码的人，然后他们就会加入。
People want to meet.
人们想要见面。
People want to get together and have these conversations.
人们希望聚在一起进行这些对话。
So it's very exhilarating.
所以这是非常令人兴奋的。
I learn a ton.
我学到了很多。
It's a lot of fun.
这很有趣。
I don't know why more people don't do it.
我不知道为什么更多的人不这样做。
And it's a bit of work to organize, but it's also just tactically been a great way to meet fascinating people.
组织起来需要一些工作，但从战术上来说，这也是结识有趣的人的好方法。
It's helped a lot for recruiting, for if you need a back channel.
如果您需要后台渠道，这对于招聘有很大帮助。
Now you know all these people that are in different industries.
现在你认识了所有这些来自不同行业的人。
But business aside, they're very valuable business wise, but they're just a lot of fun and they've become some of my favorite things that I do.
但撇开商业不谈，它们在商业上非常有价值，而且它们很有趣，而且已经成为我最喜欢做的事情之一。
Luc Levesque: I'm really surprised why more people don't do it because I think especially now that everybody's remote and we're working from home, or most people are, it's more valued than ever.
Luc Levesque：我真的很惊讶为什么更多的人不这样做，因为我认为特别是现在每个人都在远程，我们都在家工作，或者大多数人都是这样，它比以往任何时候都更有价值。
So it's something I'm looking forward to continuing and always actually through my morning reflection, thinking about what are new ones I can spin up who are interesting people that we want to break bread with.
所以这是我期待着继续下去的事情，而且实际上总是通过我早上的反思，思考我可以推出哪些新的人，他们是我们想与他们一起分享面包的有趣的人。
I do think it's important that it's done at your house.
我确实认为在你家里完成这件事很重要。
If anybody's thinking of starting this, you can do it at a restaurant, but there's something about being in your home or being in somebody's home, five or six people having a great conversation about a topic that's mutually interesting.
如果有人想开始这个，你可以在餐馆里做，但是在你家里或在某人家里，五六个人就一个共同感兴趣的话题进行一次愉快的交谈。
I think everybody values it and it adds a lot of spice to life.
我认为每个人都重视它，它为生活增添了很多情趣。
I think it's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
Lenny: Any other tactical tips for making one of these happen?
莱尼：还有其他的战术技巧可以实现其中之一吗？
So you do it at your home, you cater.
所以你在家里做，你做饭。
How many people?
有多少人？
How long?
多长时间？
Anything else you want to share there?
您还有什么想在那里分享的吗？
Luc Levesque: Yeah, so I think the most I've done is 10.
Luc Levesque：是的，所以我认为我完成的最多的是 10 次。
That's a bit too much.
这有点太过分了。
Six seems to be perfect, six to eight, eight at the max.
六似乎是完美的，六到八，最多八个。
I do get a catered so you don't have to worry about cooking.
我有包吃的，所以你不用担心做饭。
The topic, something like a topic that it's common so that everybody can rally around.
主题，类似于一个常见的主题，以便每个人都可以团结起来。
I do think it's important, like I mentioned, doing it at home.
正如我提到的，我确实认为在家做这件事很重要。
Usually we start around 6:00, we go till 9:00 or 10.
通常我们在 6:00 左右开始，一直到 9:00 或 10 点。
It's just been a really good thing that I've learned over time is a really good thing to do to just make for a better life, frankly.
坦率地说，随着时间的推移，我了解到这是一件非常好的事情，为了过上更好的生活，这是一件非常好的事情。
Make richer life with some great friends.
与一些好朋友一起创造更丰富的生活。
Lenny: And when we say cater, it's just ordering in basically, right?
莱尼：当我们说餐饮时，基本上就是点餐，对吧？
It's not that-
不是那个——
Luc Levesque: Yeah, you can just DoorDash some food so you don't have to worry about cooking.
Luc Levesque：是的，你可以通过 DoorDash 一些食物，这样你就不用担心做饭了。
I'm sure there's other things.
我确信还有其他事情。
I've never really deeply thought about it, but in terms of what are the specific things, I've evolved it over time, but I don't cook anyways, so it would be terrible if I cooked.
我从来没有真正深入地思考过，但具体是什么，我随着时间的推移而演变，但我反正不做饭，所以如果我做饭就太糟糕了。
So this is much easier to do it this way.
所以用这种方法做起来要容易得多。
And as long as you're inviting kind of interesting people, everybody's going to want to come and spend some time and bring some bread.
只要你邀请一些有趣的人，每个人都会想来花一些时间并带上一些面包。
Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: I think you are.
莱尼：我想你是的。
Well, question one.
嗯，问题一。
What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Luc Levesque: So there's one that I've already mentioned, which is Spark.
Luc Levesque：我已经提到过一个，那就是 Spark。
It's the neuroscience of exercise.
这是运动的神经科学。
That's a great book.
那是一本很棒的书。
It's not one of these exercise to stay fit and to live longer.
这不是保持健康和长寿的运动之一。
This is really about, frankly, if you exercise and do it in a specific way, they have a kind of blueprint they lay out, it's good for just cognition and kind of horsepower and performance.
坦率地说，这实际上是关于如果你锻炼并以特定的方式进行锻炼，他们就会制定出一种蓝图，这对认知、马力和表现都有好处。
So that's been a really important one and has been a big part of me building on my morning routine.
所以这是非常重要的一件事，也是我建立早晨例行公事的重要组成部分。
The second one is when I picked up I think about a year ago or six months, and I recommended it, gee, I don't know, at least to a couple hundred people now because I recommended it to my team.
第二个是当我拿起它时，我想是一年前或六个月前，我推荐了它，哎呀，我不知道，至少现在向几百人推荐了它，因为我向我的团队推荐了它。
It's called Smart Brevity.
这就是所谓的“智能简洁”。
Have you heard of this one?
你听说过这个吗？
Lenny: No, but I love the sound of it.
莱尼：不，但我喜欢它的声音。
Luc Levesque: I've always been big on writing crisply and being very tight and not having three-page memos that you're sending off.
Luc Levesque：我一直热衷于写作清晰且非常紧凑，并且没有您发送的三页备忘录。
Especially now that we're remote and we're all doing slack and email and different ways of messaging, how tightly you communicate, how crisp your communication is really important for frankly you getting your point across and also for the other person who's probably digesting a hundred of these messages.
特别是现在我们处于远程状态，我们都在使用 Slack 和电子邮件以及不同的消息传递方式，您沟通的紧密程度、沟通的清晰程度对于坦率地表达您的观点以及可能正在消化数百条此类消息的其他人来说非常重要。
So this book is...
所以这本书是...
It's a book on how to do that.
这是一本关于如何做到这一点的书。
It breaks down how to write crisply and the different parts of it.
它详细介绍了如何清晰地写作以及其中的不同部分。
I've definitely seen improvements in the team since I've passed around.
自从我离开后，我确实看到了团队的进步。
So that's a great book frankly for anybody, work or personal because we're writing so much and communication is so key.
坦率地说，这对任何人（无论是工作人员还是个人）来说都是一本很棒的书，因为我们写了很多东西，而沟通非常关键。
So that's the second one.
这是第二个。
The third one is a golden oldie.
第三首是金曲。
It's one that I've read many, many times and I recommend from a growth perspective.
这是我读过很多很多遍的书，我从成长的角度推荐它。
This one youlikely heard of, it's Influence by Cialdini.
您可能听说过这个，它是 Cialdini 的影响力。
Lenny: I got it back on my bookshelf there.
莱尼：我把它放回我的书架上了。
Luc Levesque: Yeah, it's a great book, and it's because it's really the underpinning of so many different product and growth principles that you can apply.
Luc Levesque：是的，这是一本很棒的书，因为它确实是您可以应用的许多不同产品和增长原则的基础。
So that's just a classic that is good to reread at least once a year.
所以这是一部值得每年至少重读一次的经典之作。
So those are three books.
这是三本书。
Lenny: I'm going to extend this a little bit.
莱尼：我要稍微扩展一下。
I'm going to add two books that are building on your two books, or the first two books, I guess.
我将添加两本书，这些书是在您的两本书或前两本书的基础上添加的，我猜。
One is Peter Attia just wrote a book called Outlive.
其中之一是彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）刚刚写了一本名为《Outlive》的书。
That is-
那就是——
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
And it's exactly the same kind of premise of just how important exercise is.
这与锻炼的重要性完全相同。
I think there's a quote in there of just the only thing proven to help you live longer is exercise.
我认为其中有句话说，唯一被证明可以帮助你长寿的事情就是锻炼。
And then Smart Brevity, there's another book that I'd recommend if people want more on though on this topic called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit.
然后，如果人们想了解更多关于这个主题的内容，我会推荐另一本书《Smart Brivity》，名为《没人想读你的狗屎》。
Lenny: And it's by the guy that wrote the War of Art and Bagger Vance.
莱尼：这是《艺术之战》和巴格万斯的作者。
I forget his name off the top of my head, but it's like, "Nobody wants to read your shit.
我忘记了他的名字，但这就像，“没有人想读你的狗屎。
Here's what you need to do for people to want to read anything you're writing."
为了让人们想要阅读你所写的任何内容，你需要做以下事情。”
Luc Levesque: Yeah.
吕克·莱维斯克：是的。
We want to scan.
我们要扫描。
We want to read.
我们想读书。
Yeah, that's great.
是的，那太好了。
I'll pick that one up.
我会挑选那个。
Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit.
没有人想读你的狗屎。
Lenny: All right, back on track.
莱尼：好吧，回到正轨。
What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Luc Levesque: I don't watch TV much and I haven't really watched any movies in a while.
Luc Levesque：我不怎么看电视，也有一段时间没有真正看过任何电影了。
But I do watch a lot of podcasts on YouTube.
但我确实在 YouTube 上观看了很多播客。
Andrew Huberman has got, of course, a great series.
当然，安德鲁·胡伯曼有一个很棒的系列。
I've watched I think everyone he puts out, so I don't know if that counts, but that's-
我看过他提出的每个人，所以我不知道这是否重要，但那是-
Luc Levesque: Okay.
吕克·莱维斯克：好的。
So I watched that.
所以我看了那个。
And then of course the All-In Podcast is always fun, so I make sure to watch those when they come out as well.
当然，All-In 播客总是很有趣，所以我也一定会在它们发布时观看它们。
A lot of fun and informative.
非常有趣且信息丰富。
So those are my two, I would say.
我想说的是，这是我的两个。
Lenny: Great picks.
莱尼：很棒的选择。
What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask?
您最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？
Luc Levesque: Teach me something about growth that I don't already know.
Luc Levesque：教我一些我还不知道的关于成长的知识。
Because...
因为...
and you could apply this to engineering product, any other area, because it really gives you a sense of what this person thinks is the top of the stack in terms of the smartest thing they know.
你可以将其应用到工程产品或任何其他领域，因为它确实让你了解这个人认为什么是他们所知道的最聪明的东西。
Whether you know it or not is irrelevant.
无论你是否知道，都无关紧要。
But sometimes you actually do end up learning some stuff.
但有时你实际上最终会学到一些东西。
But it's my favorite question because you can really engage in a conversation around, "Okay, the thing you think is so unique that maybe you've come up with this learning yourself or you've created this tactic and then it gives you a sense of how much they know the craft." So that's my favorite question.
但这是我最喜欢的问题，因为你可以真正参与对话，“好吧，你认为的东西是如此独特，也许你自己想出了这个学习方法，或者你创造了这个策略，然后它让你了解他们对这门手艺的了解程度。”这是我最喜欢的问题。
Lenny: What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you just really love?
莱尼：您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Luc Levesque: I've got a cold plunge that I bought that I love.
Luc Levesque：我买了一款我很喜欢的冷饮。
So it's called the Renew Cold Plunge.
所以它被称为“更新冷跳”。
It's cold but super convenient and I do that every morning and I just love it.
虽然很冷，但超级方便，我每天早上都会这样做，我非常喜欢它。
Lenny: Any advice for cold plunging?
Lenny：对于冷浸有什么建议吗？
That sounds very painful and hard.
这听起来非常痛苦和艰难。
Luc Levesque: I usually start going...
Luc Levesque：我通常会开始......
I go in a hot tub to warm up, then I go in the cold plunges and back in the hot tub.
我先去热水浴缸里热身，然后再去冷水池里，然后再回到热水浴缸里。
That's an easy way to get started.
这是一个简单的入门方法。
But I will say I jumped in yesterday and today without going to hot tub.
但我会说我昨天和今天跳了进去，没有去热水浴缸。
It was very painful, but I felt so much better after.
虽然非常痛苦，但之后我感觉好多了。
So I might be changing up my approach, but I'm just kind of experimenting with different things.
所以我可能会改变我的方法，但我只是在尝试不同的事情。
But that would be some advice.
但这是一些建议。
And then just go slow.
然后慢慢来。
Start it not too cold, and then slowly make it cold over time.
开始时不要太冷，然后随着时间的推移慢慢使其变冷。
But I think it's a pretty good thing to add in so far.
但我认为到目前为止添加进来是一件非常好的事情。
Lenny: How long have you spent in the cold plunge?
莱尼：你在寒冷的地方呆了多久？
Luc Levesque: It varies.
Luc Levesque：情况各不相同。
Right now I'm doing five minutes.
现在我正在做五分钟。
Five minutes at, I think it's 53 degrees.
五分钟后，我认为气温是 53 度。
So I've started at 60, slowly bringing it down.
所以我从60岁开始，慢慢降低。
But you do have to go slow because I brought it down even further and kind of caught me off guard and got a little dizzy.
但你必须放慢速度，因为我把它放得更远，让我措手不及，有点头晕。
So you got to find your sweet spot.
所以你必须找到你的最佳位置。
Lenny: Damn.
莱尼：该死。
Very Huberman inspired.
非常受到休伯曼的启发。
I imagine this-
我想象这个——
Luc Levesque: Definitely it was part of the source there.
Luc Levesque：这绝对是那里来源的一部分。
Lenny: I know people would hear a lot about cold plunges.
莱尼：我知道人们会听到很多关于冷泉的说法。
I guess what have you seen as a benefit just while we're on this topic for people to seriously consider doing this?
我想当我们谈论这个话题时，您认为人们认真考虑这样做的好处是什么？
Luc Levesque: So a couple things.
Luc Levesque：有几件事。
Mood afterwards is so much better.
之后的心情就好多了。
You get this great multi-hour boost from doing it.
这样做你会得到几个小时的巨大提升。
Especially like I mentioned, not doing warm before or waiting 10 minutes and waiting 10 minutes after before you warm up, after you get out, great mood boost.
特别是像我提到的，在热身前不做热身或等待 10 分钟，热身后等待 10 分钟，出去后，心情会很好。
It also helps a lot with sleep.
它对睡眠也有很大帮助。
So if you do it at night, which is a little bit difficult, it helps a lot with sleep.
所以，如果你在晚上做，虽然有点困难，但对睡眠有很大帮助。
Those are probably the two biggest things.
这可能是最重要的两件事。
And you do get to a point, I'm there now where I kind of look forward to it because you know how good you'll feel afterwards.
你确实到了一个地步，我现在就在那里，我有点期待它，因为你知道之后你会感觉有多好。
So when I'm thinking about it, I know it's painful, it doesn't make it easier, but I do look forward to it now.
所以当我想到这件事时，我知道这很痛苦，这并不会让事情变得更容易，但我现在确实很期待。
It's a pretty cool thing.
这是一件很酷的事情。
Lenny: Okay, two more questions.
莱尼：好的，还有两个问题。
What's something relatively minor that you've changed in your product development process that has had a big impact on your team's ability to execute?
您在产品开发过程中进行了哪些相对较小的更改，但对您团队的执行能力产生了重大影响？
Luc Levesque: One change that comes to mind is it's common to hear discussion around you need to experiment, you need to have rigor, you need to look at results, iterate based on those results.
Luc Levesque：我想到的一个变化是，经常听到围绕你需要进行实验、你需要严谨、你需要查看结果、根据这些结果进行迭代的讨论。
That's pretty much common knowledge is how all good companies that execute growth that do it.
所有执行增长的优秀公司都是如何做到这一点的，这几乎是常识。
I think the subtlety is that experiments are great, but they can be slow.
我认为微妙之处在于实验很棒，但它们可能很慢。
You have to look at the results.
你必须看看结果。
You have to analyze how things went.
你必须分析事情的进展情况。
You have to learn what's going on.
你必须了解发生了什么。
You have to build the experiment.
你必须进行实验。
So there's a cost to an experiment and not everything needs to be experimented.
所以实验是有成本的，并不是所有的东西都需要实验。
And that's not something that I generally hear growth teams talk about.
我通常不会听到增长团队谈论这一点。
It's usually, "Hey, we need to experiment."
通常是，“嘿，我们需要尝试一下。”
Luc Levesque: So one thing that we're definitely focused more on lately is this idea of sometimes you just need to YOLO it because it's a better product experience or you just kind of know it's going to work.
Luc Levesque：所以我们最近更关注的一件事是，有时你只需要 YOLO 它，因为它是一种更好的产品体验，或者你只是知道它会起作用。
And if you're YOLO-ing 40 things and three of them work and you can look at pre-post, you can look at holdouts, there's ways of making sure you don't cause major damage, but the speed can outweigh the cost and time it takes to do experiment.
如果你正在 YOLO-ing 40 件事，其中三件事有效，你可以看看事前事后，你可以看看坚持，有一些方法可以确保你不会造成重大损害，但速度可能超过做实验所需的成本和时间。
So that's one change we've recently implemented.
这是我们最近实施的一项更改。
That's been pretty impactful.
这非常有影响力。
Lenny: Final question.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
So we met actually a long time ago in Montreal, or maybe it was in Ottawa, in Canada somewhere.
所以我们实际上很久以前在蒙特利尔见过面，或者可能是在渥太华，在加拿大的某个地方。
I think it was through an organization called C100 when I was starting my company back in the day.
我想当时我创办公司时是通过一个名为 C100 的组织实现的。
And so my question is, what is your favorite Canadian food?
所以我的问题是，你最喜欢的加拿大食物是什么？
Luc Levesque: It's funny.
吕克·莱维斯克：这很有趣。
My favorite Canadian food, I'm from Ottawa and there's a lot of shawarma, Lebanese shawarma everywhere.
我最喜欢的加拿大食物，我来自渥太华，到处都有很多沙瓦玛，黎巴嫩沙瓦玛。
I know it's not traditionally Canadian, but Canada's so multicultural, so I'll make this count.
我知道这不是传统的加拿大，但加拿大是一个多元文化的国家，所以我会考虑这一点。
I love a good shawarma and it's so hard to find a good shawarma in the Bay Area.
我喜欢美味的沙威玛，但在湾区很难找到好吃的沙威玛。
We've still been looking here.
我们还一直在这里寻找。
But my favorite Canadian food or pseudo Canadian is shawarma.
但我最喜欢的加拿大食物或伪加拿大食物是沙瓦玛。
If I had to pick one purely Canadian food, and this is related to Montreal where we first met, it's got to be a Montreal smoked meat sandwich.
如果我必须选择一种纯粹的加拿大食物，而且这与我们第一次见面的蒙特利尔有关，那一定是蒙特利尔熏肉三明治。
Lenny: Excellent choices.
莱尼：很棒的选择。
You're making me very hungry.
你让我很饿。
I'm going to go get some shawarma, buy me a cold plunge.
我要去买一些沙瓦玛，给我买一杯冷饮。
Luc, this was amazing.
卢克，这太棒了。
We talked through everything I was hoping to talk through.
我们讨论了我希望讨论的一切。
Advisorships, SEO, hiring, building habits, cold plunges.
咨询、搜索引擎优化、招聘、养成习惯、冷落。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more?
如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Luc Levesque: You can find me online at luclevesque.com.
Luc Levesque：您可以在 luclevesque.com 上在线找到我。
So first name, last name.com.
所以名字，姓氏.com。
And how can they be useful to me?
它们对我有何用处？
Listen, we're always looking to hire the best of the best.
听着，我们一直在寻找最优秀的人才。
So if you want to work at an amazing company with an amazing team doing very impactful work and learn the craft of growth, please reach out.
因此，如果您想在一家出色的公司工作，拥有一支出色的团队，从事非常有影响力的工作并学习成长技巧，请与我们联系。
We're always looking to bring on amazing talent.
我们一直致力于培养优秀人才。
So that would be the woodway.
这就是林道。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Luc, thank you again so much for being here.
卢克，再次非常感谢你来到这里。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。