Mastering onboarding | Lauryn Isford (Head of Growth at Airtable)

Lauryn Isford: An activation rate that falls in a lower percentage range, maybe for most companies five to 15%, is better than one that falls in a higher percentage range because it means that there's likely much higher correlation with long-term retention and you're really working hard to get most of your users to reach a state that they're not reaching today.

Lauryn Isford：对于大多数公司来说，较低百分比范围内的激活率（对于大多数公司来说可能为 5% 到 15%）比较高百分比范围内的激活率要好，因为这意味着与长期保留的相关性可能更高，而且您确实正在努力让大多数用户达到他们今天未达到的状态。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，以帮助您更好地构建和发展产品。

Today my guest is Lauryn Isford.

今天我的客人是劳伦·伊斯福德。

Lauryn was most recently head of growth at Airtable.

Lauryn 最近担任 Airtable 的增长主管。

Before that, she was a product growth lead at Facebook, working on user growth, internet.org, and growth of Facebook at India.

在此之前，她是 Facebook 的产品增长主管，负责用户增长、internet.org 和 Facebook 在印度的增长。

Before that, interestingly, she led growth for Blue Bottle's e-commerce business.

有趣的是，在此之前，她领导了 Blue Bottle 电子商务业务的增长。

In our conversation, we dive deep into Lauryn's favorite topic, onboarding, why it's one of the biggest and most undervalued growth levers, what she's learned about optimizing onboarding flow through her work redoing Airtable's onboarding flow, what she's seen work and common pitfalls around onboarding, plus a ton of advice around figuring out your activation metric.

在我们的对话中，我们深入探讨了 Lauryn 最喜欢的话题：入职培训，为什么它是最大且最被低估的增长杠杆之一，她通过重做 Airtable 入职流程的工作中了解到的关于优化入职流程的知识，她所看到的工作原理和入职流程的常见陷阱，以及有关计算激活指标的大量建议。

I could talk all day with Lauryn about growth, but we had to cut this off to keep this to a reasonable length.

我可以和 Lauryn 谈论成长一整天，但我们必须把这个话题剪掉，以保持合理的长度。

Enjoy my conversation with Lauryn Isford after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们精彩的赞助商简短发言后，请享受我与劳伦·伊斯福德的谈话。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by public.com, who want to tell you about their new treasury accounts which earn a 4.8% yield on your cash.

Lenny：本集由 public.com 为您带来，他们想向您介绍他们的新财务账户，该账户的现金收益率为 4.8%。

That is higher than a high yield savings account while still being backed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

这高于高收益储蓄账户，同时仍得到美国政府的充分信任和信用支持。

Treasure yields are at a 15-year high, but buying US Treasuries is super complicated if you go to a bank or navigate an ancient government website, or at least that was the case.

美国国债收益率处于 15 年来的高位，但如果您去银行或浏览古老的政府网站，那么购买美国国债就非常复杂，或者至少是这样。

Now you can move your cash into US Treasuries with the flexibility of a bank account, you can access your cash whenever you want, even before your Treasury bills hit maturity.

现在，您可以通过银行账户的灵活性将现金转入美国国债，您可以随时提取现金，甚至在国库券到期之前。

There are no hold periods, no settlement days, just a safe place to park your cash and earn a reliable yield.

没有持有期，没有结算日，只有一个安全的地方来存放您的现金并赚取可靠的收益。

Public will automatically reinvest your Treasury bills at maturity so you don't have to do anything to continue growing your yield, and you can manage your treasuries alongside stocks, ETFs, crypto, and any alternative assets.

Public 会在到期时自动对您的国库券进行再投资，因此您无需采取任何措施即可继续增加收益，并且您可以与股票、ETF、加密货币和任何另类资产一起管理您的国库券。

Do all your investing in one place and earn 4.8%, a higher yield than a high yield savings account only with a Treasury account at public.com/lenny.

将所有投资集中在一个地方，即可赚取 4.8% 的收益，这比仅在 public.com/lenny 上使用国债账户的高收益储蓄账户的收益率更高。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours and mine.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您和我这样的团队而设计。

I have a quick request, head on over to my board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guest you'd love for me to have on in 2023, and while you're on the Miro board, feel free to play around with the tool.

我有一个快速请求，请前往 miro.com/lenny 上的我的董事会，让我知道您希望我在 2023 年邀请哪位嘉宾，当您在 Miro 董事会上时，请随意使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to work closely with your colleagues to capture ideas, get feedback, and iterate quickly and easily on anything you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以与同事密切合作，捕捉想法、获取反馈，并快速轻松地迭代您正在处理的任何事情。

For example, in Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes, comments, live reactions, voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team sprints.

例如，在 Miro 中，您可以通过使用便利贴、评论、实时反应、投票工具甚至估算应用程序来进行集思广益来制定您的产品策略，以确定您的团队冲刺范围。

Your whole distributed team can come together around a wireframe and draw ideas with a pen tool or even put mocks right into the Miro board.

您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，并使用钢笔工具绘制想法，甚至可以将模型直接放入 Miro 板上。

And with one of Miro's ready-made template, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmap to customer journey flows, final mocks, you get the picture.

通过 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图，再到客户旅程流程，最后的模拟，您就可以了解情况。

Head on over to miro.com/lenny to leave your suggestions.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: Lauryn, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：劳伦，欢迎来到播客。

Lauryn Isford: Thank you.

劳伦·伊斯福德：谢谢。

I'm so excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: We've chatted a bunch over Slacks, like all these different Slacks we're in and Twitter and emails, but we've never actually chatted real time, and so I have a million questions that I want to ask you.

Lenny：我们在 Slacks 上聊了很多，就像我们使用的所有这些不同的 Slacks、Twitter 和电子邮件一样，但我们从未真正实时聊天过，所以我有一百万个问题想问你。

So, thank you again for being here.

所以，再次感谢您来到这里。

Lauryn Isford: We have never chatted real time, so everybody's getting the first conversation and I'm really looking forward to it.

Lauryn Isford：我们从来没有实时聊天过，所以每个人都会进行第一次对话，我真的很期待。

Lenny: I know that you have this pretty spicy contrarian take on experimentation and that I think you believe people run experiments too often and maybe not everything should be an experiment.

莱尼：我知道你对实验有一种非常激烈的逆向思维，而且我认为你相信人们过于频繁地进行实验，也许并不是所有的事情都应该是实验。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Lauryn Isford: Yes.

劳伦·伊斯福德：是的。

So, experimentation is a really big part, growth culture, growth hacking culture, PLG culture, growth marketing culture, any kind of growth, at least in my sphere, and sometimes teams can be really, really dependent on experimentation when trying to grow a business.

所以，实验是一个非常重要的部分，增长文化、增长黑客文化、PLG 文化、增长营销文化，任何形式的增长，至少在我的领域，有时团队在尝试发展业务时可能真的非常依赖实验。

A great example of this would be consumer growth at scale.

一个很好的例子就是消费者的大规模增长。

Think your classic big social company.

想想你的经典大型社交公司。

I worked at one of them.

我曾在其中之一工作过。

I am a former employee of Meta back when it was called Facebook.

我是 Meta 的前员工，当时它还叫 Facebook。

When you're at scale trying to grow a social app, experimenting can feel second nature.

当您大规模尝试开发社交应用程序时，尝试可能会成为第二天性。

It can feel like a necessary step in your product development process that you want to drive more signups or you want to drive better activation with new customers.

如果您希望吸引更多注册用户或希望更好地激活新客户，这可能感觉像是产品开发过程中的必要步骤。

So, you change some buttons, change a design, and A/B test it, and then see if numbers go up or down, and then make your ship decision based on it.

因此，你改变一些按钮，改变设计，然后进行 A/B 测试，然后看看数字是上升还是下降，然后根据它做出你的船舶决策。

Lauryn Isford: I find that there's generally two reasons why a grow team wants to experiment, and one of them is to understand more precisely the metric impact of what they're building and what they're putting in front of customers, and the other is risk mitigation where you're making so many big dramatic changes that there's some risk that while this could be really great for the business, it could also be really bad and it would be good to understand that before everybody's experiencing that in production.

Lauryn Isford：我发现成长团队想要进行实验的原因通常有两个，其中之一是为了更准确地了解他们正在构建的内容以及他们在客户面前展示的内容的指标影响，另一个是降低风险，因为你正在进行如此多的重大变革，因此存在一些风险，虽然这可能对业务来说非常好，但也可能非常糟糕，在每个人在生产中体验到这一点之前了解这一点会很好。

So, with that framework in mind, sometimes you don't need to experiment.

因此，考虑到该框架，有时您不需要进行实验。

Sometimes if the business, let's say activation, right, activation rates go up 6% versus 7%, that precision actually doesn't help all that much beyond being able to say in your performance review, "Hey, I increased activation by 7%." So, it also is expensive to have folks on the ground, be it engineers, analysts, product managers, spending time understanding the results of an experiment that could otherwise be spent on road mapping, on foundational analysis, on shipping things.

有时，如果业务，比方说激活率，激活率上升 6% 比 7%，除了在绩效评估中说“嘿，我将激活率提高了 7%”之外，这种精确度实际上并没有多大帮助。因此，让工程师、分析师、产品经理等人员在现场花时间了解实验结果也是昂贵的，而这些时间本来可以花在路线图绘制、基础分析和运输上。

So, experiments can be expensive.

因此，实验可能会很昂贵。

Lauryn Isford: So, with all that said, generally my advice is to experiment when you need to and to primarily see it as a risk mitigation tactic when you're making dramatic changes and to let the product development process do more work.

Lauryn Isford：综上所述，一般来说，我的建议是在需要时进行试验，并在进行重大更改时主要将其视为一种风险缓解策略，并让产品开发流程完成更多工作。

So, spend more time with customers, be more rigorous in understanding precisely what problem you're solving, get mocks in front of people and see how they react, and hopefully have more conviction than you otherwise would when you ship something that it's okay if every customer sees it tomorrow and that the experiment doesn't actually matter as much.

因此，花更多的时间与客户在一起，更严格地准确理解你正在解决的问题，在人们面前进行嘲笑，看看他们的反应，并希望比你在交付产品时更有信心，如果每个客户明天都能看到它，那么实验实际上并不那么重要。

Lenny: It's so interesting hearing that from a head of growth person.

莱尼：从一位成长型人士的口中听到这样的说法真是太有趣了。

Working at Airbnb for a long time, and you talked about this, there's so much value put into the amount your experiment moves the metric is so important to, like you said, your performance review, your team's status, your team's ability to show they were successful.

在 Airbnb 工作了很长时间，你谈到了这一点，你的实验移动量投入了如此多的价值，正如你所说，这个指标对于你的绩效评估、你的团队的状态、你的团队证明他们成功的能力非常重要。

People look at like, you drove this metric 14%, which oftentimes you add up from experiments you've ran.

人们会认为，您将这个指标提高了 14%，这通常是您通过进行的实验得出的结果。

How do you work in a culture like that, or is it just in that culture you may as well run experiments because that's the only way you get credit for the work you do, or is there a way to just be like, "Wow, that is how we measure it, but it's still maybe not worth running everything as an experiment"?

你如何在这样的文化中工作，或者只是在这种文化中你也可以进行实验，因为这是你为你所做的工作获得荣誉的唯一方式，或者有没有一种方法就像，“哇，这就是我们衡量它的方式，但它仍然可能不值得将所有东西都作为实验来运行”？

How do you kind of find that balance?

你如何找到这种平衡？

Lauryn Isford: It feels to me like that is the default culture, especially as growth teams become organizations and as those organizations grow with companies into growth stage public company territory and beyond.

Lauryn Isford：在我看来，这是默认的文化，尤其是当增长团队成为组织，并且这些组织与公司一起成长为成长阶段的上市公司领域及其他领域时。

However, I do think you can build a different culture, and the only way to escape the trap of experimenting everything is to have a very intentional culture about doing right by customers and doing the right thing for the business.

然而，我确实认为你可以建立一种不同的文化，而摆脱尝试一切的陷阱的唯一方法就是拥有一种非常有意识的文化，为客户做正确的事，为企业做正确的事。

A growth team or a growth org exists in service of improving the business and delivering results for the business, and whether or not you measure those precisely in an A/B test, you still shipped them or you didn't.

增长团队或增长组织的存在是为了改进业务并为业务提供结果，无论您是否在 A/B 测试中精确衡量这些，您仍然交付它们或没有交付它们。

Lauryn Isford: So, the rigor around your process was either there or it wasn't.

Lauryn Isford：所以，您的流程的严格性要么存在，要么不存在。

This means though that there have to be other ways to motivate, reward, retain, and develop really good talent.

但这意味着必须有其他方法来激励、奖励、留住和培养真正优秀的人才。

So, a culture around the impact you had on customers as measured by qualitative feedback or as measured by deals that were closed or deals that weren't lost, or other kinds of indicators that you did the right thing for customers is important and there shouldn't be, especially in engineering within the world of growth, a culture around having to point to numbers to demonstrate your impact because if there is, then the team will biased experiments all the time, and that's not necessarily the right thing for the business.

因此，通过定性反馈来衡量你对客户的影响，或者通过已完成的交易或未丢失的交易来衡量，或者通过其他类型的指标来衡量你为客户做了正确的事情，这一点很重要，但不应该有一种必须用数字来证明你的影响力的文化，特别是在增长世界中的工程中，因为如果有的话，那么团队就会一直有偏见的实验，这对企业来说不一定是正确的事情。

It's a very expensive cost.

这是一个非常昂贵的成本。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

It's so wild hearing this from, again, a head of growth, someone that's so analytical like you.

再次从一个像你这样善于分析的增长主管那里听到这样的说法真是太疯狂了。

Is there an example of something you launched that maybe most people would've run an experiment and you decided not to for one of these reasons?

有没有一个例子可以说明您推出的产品可能大多数人都会进行实验，但您出于以下原因之一决定不这样做？

Lauryn Isford: There is a feature, a product really, that Airtable offers called Airtable Forms.

Lauryn Isford：Airtable 提供了一个功能，实际上是一个产品，称为 Airtable Forms。

It's possible you've used it.

很可能你已经用过它了。

I'm not sure if you have, but-

我不确定你是否有，但是-

Lenny: No, I don't think so, but I will go check it out.

莱尼：不，我不这么认为，但我会去看看。

Lauryn Isford: You can check it out.

Lauryn Isford：你可以看看。

There are some new features I'm about to tell you about, so maybe that will entice you.

我将向您介绍一些新功能，也许这会吸引您。

Lauryn Isford: So, Airtable Forms is much like other forms products.

Lauryn Isford：Airtable Forms 与其他表单产品非常相似。

You can create a form and then send it to anybody to submit.

您可以创建一个表单，然后将其发送给任何人进行提交。

The people who submit your form don't need to be a user of Airtable.

提交表单的人不需要是 Airtable 的用户。

Lenny: Oh yeah, I have used that.

莱尼：哦，是的，我用过这个。

Okay.

好的。

It's just like the turn an Airtable into a form.

这就像将 Airtable 变成表格一样。

Yes, I've used it.

是的，我用过。

Okay.

好的。

Lauryn Isford: Exactly.

劳伦·伊斯福德：没错。

So, something we noticed is that there was a gap in feature parity for Airtable Forms where the submitter could not request a copy of their submission.

因此，我们注意到 Airtable 表单的功能对等性存在差距，提交者无法请求其提交内容的副本。

So, I might send my T-shirt size to Lenny for a form around ordering swag for the company and then I might want to remember which T-shirt size that I ordered and get a copy of that in my email.

因此，我可能会将我的 T 恤尺码发送给 Lenny，获取一份为公司订购赠品的表格，然后我可能想记住我订购的 T 恤尺码，并在我的电子邮件中获取该尺码的副本。

We created that feature which as a result was gated on creating an account with Airtable, and we just turned it on and wanted to see what would happen because we knew from rigor of a wonderful product team doing robust customer analysis and also doing the data work that this is something that people wanted, that it was a feature that would bring value to customers, and that even if it didn't move certain metrics like a signup percentage, even if it might affect the mix shift of activation rate from folks who signed up, it would be net good for customers who were using forms and who were submitting them.

我们创建了该功能，结果在使用 Airtable 创建帐户时受到限制，我们只是将其打开，想看看会发生什么，因为我们从一个出色的产品团队的严格性中知道，他们进行了强大的客户分析，并进行了数据工作，这是人们想要的东西，这是一个将为客户带来价值的功能，即使它不会改变注册百分比等某些指标，即使它可能会影响注册者的激活率的混合变化，这对那些被注册的客户来说也是净好事。使用表格以及提交表格的人。

Lauryn Isford: So, we did roll that one out without an A/B test.

Lauryn Isford：所以，我们确实在没有进行 A/B 测试的情况下推出了该产品。

It did have a big enough impact on our signup metrics that we saw at top line and didn't need the A/B test to see what was happening.

它确实对我们的注册指标产生了足够大的影响，我们在顶部看到了这一点，并且不需要 A/B 测试来了解发生了什么。

And we also were able to use attribution to make some analysis possible after we rolled it out so we could learn from what was happening to the base afterward.

在推出后，我们还能够使用归因进行一些分析，以便我们可以从基地之后发生的情况中了解情况。

Lenny: Fascinating.

莱尼：令人着迷。

That's a really good example, and I imagine that helps a lot when the head of growth is encouraging the team not to run as an experiment versus a PM on a subteam, like, "Nah, we don't need to run this as an experiment," because in that case you're already acknowledging that team, "You did a great job, look at this metric.

这是一个非常好的例子，我想当增长主管鼓励团队不要将其作为实验而不是子团队的 PM 时，这会很有帮助，比如，“不，我们不需要将其作为实验运行”，因为在这种情况下，你已经认可了该团队，“你做得很好，看看这个指标。

Clearly this one moved.

显然这个动了。

Clearly customers want it." So, to your point, basically this kind of stuff has to come top down probably for it to work well.

显然客户想要它。”所以，就你的观点而言，基本上这种东西必须自上而下才能正常工作。

Lauryn Isford: I think it does, and it also cannot be an excuse for rigor around building well and being precise in what customers need, but overall, if you can be a results-oriented organization that just wants to do the right thing and move with urgency, then in my opinion, that's the way that you can have the most impact.

Lauryn Isford：我认为确实如此，而且它也不能成为严格构建和准确满足客户需求的借口，但总的来说，如果您可以成为一个以结果为导向的组织，只想做正确的事情并紧急行动，那么在我看来，这就是您可以产生最大影响的方式。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Okay.

好的。

I didn't expect to spend that much time on that question, but there's so much there.

我没想到会在这个问题上花那么多时间，但问题实在是太多了。

That was really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

What I want to spend the bulk of our time on is onboarding.

我想把大部分时间花在入职培训上。

Something that I found myself, and I think you agree with a lot of this but I'll confirm, is that I've done a lot of research into the growth stories of the most successful startups, and what I find, one, is that retention ends up being the thing you got to crack.

我自己发现的一点是，我对最成功的初创公司的成长故事做了很多研究，我认为你在很大程度上同意这一点，但我会证实，我发现，第一，保留最终成为你必须解决的问题。

If you can't crack retention, nothing else matters.

如果你无法破解保留率，其他一切都不重要。

And then, two, more interestingly, onboarding ends up being one of the biggest levers to increasing retention which basically A then B equal C, onboarding ends up being one of the biggest areas of opportunity for growth teams both early on and late stage.

然后，更有趣的是，入职最终成为提高保留率的最大杠杆之一，基本上 A 然后 B 等于 C，入职最终成为增长团队早期和后期的最大机会领域之一。

And so, I guess the first question, would you agree with that general sentiment that onboarding is this huge opportunity and often undervalued?

因此，我想第一个问题是，您是否同意这种普遍观点，即入职是一个巨大的机会，但往往被低估？

Lauryn Isford: Yes, I definitely agree.

劳伦·伊斯福德：是的，我绝对同意。

It depends of course on the shape of business.

这当然取决于业务的形式。

Not every business should prioritize onboarding first, but if you have some sort of self-serve element of your product, if someone can give your product a try, maybe you have a playground or a sandbox demo, if there's a premium element to your pricing scheme, if you maybe offer things totally for free and don't even have monetization yet, onboarding is that first really important choke point that from which downstream of onboarding so many important metrics and results flow for the business, from converting someone to a paid customer to closing a deal to growing, how many people in an organization are using your product.

并不是每个企业都应该首先优先考虑入职，但如果你的产品有某种自助服务元素，如果有人可以尝试你的产品，也许你有一个游乐场或沙盒演示，如果你的定价方案中有高级元素，如果你可能完全免费提供东西，甚至还没有货币化，那么入职是第一个非常重要的瓶颈，从入职下游开始，这么多重要的指标和结果为企业流动，从将某人转变为付费客户到关闭客户涉及增长，组织中有多少人正在使用您的产品。

So, all of that really comes back to onboarding and if you can get that right, lots of good things will follow.

所以，所有这一切都真正回到了入职，如果你能做到这一点，很多好事就会随之而来。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

I'm glad we agreed.

我很高兴我们同意了。

I already know this, but you spent a lot of time on Airtable's onboarding flow.

我已经知道这一点，但您在 Airtable 的入门流程上花费了很多时间。

Lenny: And so, I'm curious just to learn about what did you do over the time that you spent optimizing Airtable's onboarding experience, what kind of impact did you see through the work that you did there, and then just any big kind of general takeaways that either you think people should know or that you'll take with you to future opportunities around optimizing an onboarding experience?

Lenny：所以，我很好奇，只是想了解您在优化 Airtable 的入职体验期间做了什么，您通过在那里所做的工作看到了什么样的影响，以及您认为人们应该知道的任何重要的一般要点，或者您将在未来优化入职体验的机会中随身携带的一般要点？

Lauryn Isford: We could talk about onboarding all day.

Lauryn Isford：我们可以整天谈论入职事宜。

This is one of my favorite things to chat about recently.

这是我最近最喜欢聊的事情之一。

So, we did have a wonderful activation team rebuild Airtable's onboarding flow over the past 12 to 18 months.

因此，我们确实有一支出色的激活团队在过去 12 到 18 个月内重建了 Airtable 的新手入门流程。

This included many projects, including several big ones.

这包括许多项目，其中包括几个大项目。

So, what you've probably experienced if you signed up for Airtable recently or what you might experience if you create a new account soon is we've built an immersive wizard that we called Guided Onboarding that helped guide you through setting up your first workflow on Airtable, and in doing that reduced the cognitive load of getting started, helped you make more progress faster, and created scaffolding that more than 90% of customers would benefit from to be able to get up and running on a product that's pretty complicated.

因此，如果您最近注册了 Airtable，或者您很快创建了一个新帐户，您可能会遇到的情况是，我们构建了一个名为“引导式入门”的沉浸式向导，帮助指导您在 Airtable 上设置第一个工作流程，从而减少了入门时的认知负担，帮助您更快地取得更大进展，并创建了一个脚手架，超过 90% 的客户将从中受益，以便能够在相当复杂的产品上启动和运行。

That was the first piece.

那是第一件作品。

Lauryn Isford: We also then introduced some personalization to use case on top of that.

Lauryn Isford：除此之外，我们还为用例引入了一些个性化。

So, instead of helping you build something generic, having you build something that's relevant to you.

因此，不是帮助您构建通用的东西，而是让您构建与您相关的东西。

And then we also worked on ongoing education.

然后我们还致力于继续教育。

So, once you're in a workflow, once you've built something, how do we help you level it up to go from beginner to intermediate to advanced?

那么，一旦您进入工作流程，一旦您构建了一些东西，我们如何帮助您将其从初级升级到中级再到高级？

One funny anecdote about this is that we actually called that project The Mole, M-O-L-E, because the design pattern in product looks like a mole.

关于这个的一个有趣的轶事是，我们实际上将该项目称为“鼹鼠”，M-O-L-E，因为产品的设计模式看起来像一只鼹鼠。

It pops up from the bottom of the screen and gives you tips as you're exploring.

它会从屏幕底部弹出，并在您探索时为您提供提示。

So, those are some of the biggest changes we made.

所以，这些是我们做出的一些最大的改变。

We did retire a bunch of our tooltips which were a big part of onboarding for a really long time.

我们确实废弃了一些工具提示，这些提示在很长一段时间内都是新手入门的重要组成部分。

So, happy to chat more about that, and then also did a bunch of more incremental optimizations as well.

所以，很高兴能更多地讨论这一点，然后也做了一些更多的增量优化。

In general, tried to take a portfolio approach to what we did.

总的来说，我们尝试对我们所做的事情采取组合方法。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Okay.

好的。

A few questions real quick.

几个问题很快。

Lenny: What were the three buckets real quick?

莱尼：三个桶的速度有多快？

So personalization, ongoing education, what was the first one?

那么个性化、持续教育，第一个是什么？

Lauryn Isford: The first one was guided onboarding.

Lauryn Isford：第一个是引导入职。

Lenny: What was the impact of this work, just to give people a sense of the kind of impact you can have on conversion and then whatever other metrics you looked at there?

Lenny：这项工作的影响是什么？只是为了让人们了解您对转化率的影响以及您在那里看到的其他指标？

Lauryn Isford: We were working on activation for a few years before I arrived at Airtable.

Lauryn Isford：在我加入 Airtable 之前，我们已经致力于激活工作了几年。

There was already an awesome activation team, hard at work.

已经有一支很棒的激活团队正在努力工作。

Overall, the investments we made in onboarding over about a six to eight month period that included the wizard, The Mole with ongoing education, and also some personalization together drove a 20% lift in activation rate for Airtable.

总体而言，我们在大约六到八个月的时间里在入职方面所做的投资，包括向导、鼹鼠的持续教育以及一些个性化，共同推动了 Airtable 的激活率提高了 20%。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

That sounds quite impactful, especially at a company at that scale.

这听起来相当有影响力，尤其是对于这样规模的公司。

Lauryn Isford: It's awesome.

劳伦·伊斯福德：太棒了。

I would say celebrate any clear statistical significant improvement in activation rate.

我想说庆祝激活率方面任何明显的统计显着改善。

It's a big victory, and credit goes to the team that really spent many, many hours with customers and designing precisely to build something that could have that big of an impact.

这是一次巨大的胜利，这要归功于团队，他们花了很多很多时间与客户一起工作，并进行精确设计，以构建可能产生巨大影响的产品。

I think it speaks to the importance of really understanding what a user needs to be onboarded well, which is not the same as what your business wants the user to be onboarded to.

我认为这说明了真正了解用户需要什么来引导的重要性，这与您的企业希望用户引导的内容不同。

So, delineating those and building carefully is really what made it successful.

因此，描绘这些内容并仔细构建才是它成功的真正原因。

Lenny: Which of these three buckets would you say had the biggest impact?

莱尼：您认为这三个桶中哪一个影响最大？

Because I want to kind of get a couple levels deeper to get to what exactly did you do that worked really well.

因为我想更深入地了解你到底做了什么效果很好的事情。

Lauryn Isford: I would say that the guided onboarding wizard which is the immersive wizard that helps you figure out how to get started was the most impactful thing we did.

Lauryn Isford：我想说的是，引导式入门向导是我们所做的最有影响力的事情，它是一种身临其境的向导，可以帮助您弄清楚如何开始。

Lenny: And it's interesting that you had tooltips and this feels like a tooltip-y thing.

莱尼：有趣的是，你有工具提示，这感觉就像一个工具提示的东西。

What is it conceptually?

从概念上讲它是什么？

What's the simple way to think about the onboarding wizard versus a bunch of tooltips telling you like, "Hey, Lauryn, click here, next go here, and then check this thing out"?

考虑入职向导与一堆工具提示（例如“嘿，Lauryn，单击此处，下一步转到此处，然后查看此内容”）的简单方法是什么？

Lauryn Isford: Totally.

劳伦·伊斯福德：完全可以。

Imagine being in a step-by-step guide where you are asked question, for example, pick which kind of project you're working on, pick what kinds of things you'd like to track for this project, and then as you select from beautiful, easy-to-click buttons that require very little work on your part, something is visualized for you on the right half of the screen.

想象一下，在分步指南中，您被问到问题，例如，选择您正在处理的项目类型，选择您想要跟踪该项目的内容类型，然后当您从漂亮、易于点击的按钮中进行选择（这些按钮不需要您做太多工作）时，屏幕右半部分就会为您可视化一些内容。

So, you can see your workflow visually come to light as you do the work on the left half of the screen, and all of this is done for you in a very guided and instructive way.

因此，当您在屏幕左半部分进行工作时，您可以直观地看到您的工作流程，并且所有这些都是以非常有指导性和指导性的方式为您完成的。

Lenny: Are there any generalized learnings from that experience of just how to do a great onboarding experience?

Lenny：从这次经历中是否可以学到一些关于如何打造出色的入职体验的普遍经验？

It sounds like probably avoid tooltips, instead just kind of ask questions and show them progress as they're going through it in kind of like an immersive experience versus here's the product, check out all the cool features.

听起来可能会避免使用工具提示，而只是提出问题并向他们展示进度，就像一种身临其境的体验，而不是这里的产品，查看所有很酷的功能。

Lauryn Isford: I think there is something to be said for reducing reliance on tooltips, but I'm not sure I would go so far as to say the tooltip is dead, as much as I maybe would like to because there are too many of them out there.

Lauryn Isford：我认为有一些话可以减少对工具提示的依赖，但我不确定我是否会说工具提示已死，尽管我可能很想说，因为工具提示太多了。

The reason for this is that I do believe Airtable's customers had a very specific need which was that the effort required to build basic scaffolding was too much and they needed more support, guardrails, bumpers to help them through that, and this kind of guided or immersive wizard was the best mechanism we could come up with to reduce that effort required and to make them feel more supported in their journey.

原因是，我确实相信 Airtable 的客户有一个非常具体的需求，即构建基本脚手架所需的工作量太大，他们需要更多的支撑、护栏、保险杠来帮助他们完成这一任务，而这种引导式或沉浸式向导是我们可以想出的最佳机制，以减少所需的工作量，并使他们在旅程中感受到更多的支持。

I'm not sure that this pattern is one that works for every product.

我不确定这种模式是否适用于每种产品。

I think it's one that works well for a complicated product, where figuring out where to go next and how to get started is actually very challenging or has a high cognitive load.

我认为它非常适合复杂的产品，弄清楚下一步该往哪里走以及如何开始实际上非常具有挑战性或具有很高的认知负荷。

Lauryn Isford: So, I would keep that in mind, but in this case, it did work really well for us.

Lauryn Isford：所以，我会记住这一点，但在这种情况下，它确实对我们非常有效。

I have seen some other products in the wild adopt similar patterns which gives me confidence that it is transferrable beyond Airtable and that there's probably something to it.

我已经看到其他一些产品采用了类似的模式，这让我相信它可以转移到 Airtable 之外，并且可能有一些东西。

That's definitely a big learning.

这绝对是一个很大的学习。

I think one other big learning for us was that we had to meet users where they are.

我认为我们学到的另一项重要经验是我们必须满足用户所在的位置。

We have some awesome advanced features of really cool stuff you can do with Airtable, automations being a great example.

我们有一些很棒的高级功能，您可以使用 Airtable 完成一些非常酷的事情，自动化就是一个很好的例子。

However, users don't necessarily need to get that started on day one.

然而，用户不一定需要从第一天就开始这样做。

They don't need to learn about the advanced stuff when they haven't even looked at a workflow before.

当他们之前甚至没有查看过工作流程时，他们不需要了解高级内容。

So, we really worked hard to prioritize what the user actually needed and to consider what was necessary education versus what could be ongoing education and building it up.

因此，我们确实努力优先考虑用户实际需要的内容，并考虑什么是必要的教育，什么是持续的教育和建立它。

Lenny: Can you talk a bit more about what that was?

莱尼：你能多谈谈那是什么吗？

What did you actually do to understand the type of user, and then what did you change for them?

您实际上做了什么来了解用户类型，然后您为他们做了什么改变？

Because we actually did something like this at Airbnb, and it was a tiny bit successful for host onboarding but it wasn't anything big.

因为我们实际上在爱彼迎做了类似的事情，对于房东入职来说取得了一点成功，但并不是什么大事。

And so, I'm curious what it is you specifically did.

所以，我很好奇你具体做了什么。

Did you ask them a few questions and then grouped them in a group and then changed the way the rest of the flow went, or, yeah, what'd you do there?

你是否问了他们几个问题，然后将他们分组，然后改变了其余流程的方式，或者，是的，你在那里做了什么？

Lauryn Isford: Good question.

劳伦·伊斯福德：好问题。

So, at the very, very beginning, we sort of said new users broadly need help.

因此，从一开始，我们就表示新用户普遍需要帮助。

Who are they?

他们是谁？

What do we know about them?

我们对他们了解多少？

How can we help them?

我们如何帮助他们？

We spoke to a bunch of customers and also watched them get started and looked for patterns in behavior and also clusters.

我们与一群客户进行了交谈，并观察他们开始使用并寻找行为模式和集群。

So, someone who is familiar with databases, somewhat technical and prefers to and has experience in building things might have a different need from onboarding than someone who is exploring a tool that was recommended to them for a project minute.

因此，熟悉数据库、具有一定技术水平、喜欢构建事物并具有构建经验的人可能与正在探索为项目分钟推荐给他们的工具的人相比，在入职时的需求可能有所不同。

With that in mind, there were some clear segments of personas or buckets of users that we could split out to give different experiences.

考虑到这一点，我们可以将一些清晰的角色或用户群体进行划分，以提供不同的体验。

Now that said, when we rolled out the guided onboarding wizard, it was actually just one generic onboarding that was one-size-fits-all, and while escape patches are great, we felt like we could solve, as I think I referenced earlier, more than 90% of use cases or users needs with one generic onboarding to start and then we could personalize from there.

话虽如此，当我们推出引导式入门向导时，它实际上只是一种通用的通用入门，虽然逃生补丁很棒，但我们觉得我们可以解决，正如我之前提到的，超过 90% 的用例或用户需要从一种通用入门开始，然后我们可以从那里进行个性化。

Lauryn Isford: When we started to personalize, generally we found bucketing customers by their learning style and their building style was more effective than more classic segmentation, like do you work in marketing, do you work in product management, do you work in operation.

Lauryn Isford：当我们开始个性化时，通常我们发现通过客户的学习风格和构建风格来分类比更经典的细分更有效，比如你从事营销工作，你从事产品管理工作，你从事运营工作吗？

The reason for this is that there are many different types of building or workflows that are possible in Airtable.

原因是 Airtable 中可以实现多种不同类型的构建或工作流程。

Some are sophisticated for use at work, some are simple for use at work, some are somewhere in between and are for a hobby use case or a consulting use case.

有些在工作中使用很复杂，有些在工作中使用很简单，有些介于两者之间，用于爱好用例或咨询用例。

Knowing how someone would go about building was more effective than what do you actually want to see on the other side.

了解某人将如何进行建设比您实际希望在另一边看到什么更有效。

Lauryn Isford: This means that something like a template which can give you an example of how to build a use case for project management can be helpful for inspiration but might not actually be the best way to teach you how to use a product like Airtable, when instead, we could learn that you're someone who needs more familiarity with databases to be able to get to the next level, or who might need a more visual learning experience instead of a more data-forward learning experience.

Lauryn Isford：这意味着像模板这样的东西可以为您提供如何构建项目管理用例的示例，这可能有助于激发灵感，但实际上可能不是教您如何使用 Airtable 这样的产品的最佳方式，相反，我们可以了解到您需要更熟悉数据库才能进入下一个级别，或者可能需要更直观的学习体验而不是更多数据转发的学习体验。

So, we tried to segment the experience that way and found that that yielded better results on activation than some of the more traditional segments.

因此，我们尝试以这种方式对体验进行细分，发现与一些更传统的细分相比，这在激活方面产生了更好的结果。

Lenny: And how did you decide which segment that a user was in?

Lenny：您是如何确定用户属于哪个细分市场的？

Was it a question you asked them right at the beginning?

这是你一开始就问他们的问题吗？

Lauryn Isford: We had a really awesome research team that would do some surveys and conversations with customers away from our production experience and away from individual projects.

Lauryn Isford：我们有一个非常出色的研究团队，他们会在我们的生产经验和单个项目之外进行一些调查和与客户对话。

So, we had a really robust read going in to the project of who these different personas were, different building types, different learning types.

因此，我们对这个项目进行了非常深入的了解，了解这些不同的角色是谁、不同的建筑类型、不同的学习类型。

That said, we do also ask folks when they sign up some questions and depending on who you are or what we might think we know about you or want to know about you, we might ask you different questions and that's in service of helping you get started.

也就是说，我们也会在人们注册时询问一些问题，并且根据您是谁，或者我们认为我们了解您或想了解您什么，我们可能会问您不同的问题，这有助于帮助您入门。

Lauryn Isford: I had some big ideas for how we might bring this to life even further that might come to life in the future, such as if somebody's there to just help out, if they're may be a teammate rather than a builder, if they're just there to work with someone else because Lenny invited Lauryn to work on her table because he needed Lauryn to do something or update a sprint, whatever.

Lauryn Isford：我有一些伟大的想法，关于如何进一步实现这一点，这些想法可能在未来实现，比如是否有人只是提供帮助，是否他们可能是队友而不是构建者，是否他们只是在那里与其他人一起工作，因为 Lenny 邀请 Lauryn 在她的桌子上工作，因为他需要 Lauryn 做某事或更新冲刺，等等。

Lauryn needs really different onboarding than Lenny.

劳伦 (Lauryn) 需要的入职培训与莱尼 (Lenny) 完全不同。

So, actually getting that data in the flow is really useful because then we can route customers to a fully different experience.

因此，实际上在流程中获取这些数据非常有用，因为这样我们就可以为客户带来完全不同的体验。

It's amazing how much low-hanging fruit there is to personalize and segment that onboarding experience in so many products that are out there.

令人惊奇的是，在如此多的产品中，有多少容易实现的目标可以个性化和细分入职体验。

You just need to be really detail-oriented and precise on who you're working with.

您只需要真正注重细节并准确地了解与您一起工作的人。

Lenny: You talked about this experience as activation, and so just digging a little bit further into that idea.

莱尼：你把这种体验称为激活，所以只是进一步深入研究这个想法。

One of the important kind of metrics, milestones you got to figure out when you're working on onboarding is what is an activated user, what's the activation milestone, what's the activation metric.

在进行入职培训时，您必须弄清楚的重要指标之一、里程碑是什么是激活用户、激活里程碑是什么、激活指标是什么。

I know you have some strong opinions and some really interesting insights into activation milestones based on your experience at Airtable.

我知道根据您在 Airtable 的经验，您对激活里程碑有一些强烈的意见和一些非常有趣的见解。

Can you chat a bit about that and just share what Airtable's activation metric ended up being?

您能谈谈这个问题并分享一下 Airtable 的激活指标最终是多少吗？

Lauryn Isford: Yes.

劳伦·伊斯福德：是的。

So, overall, every growth team needs a north star metric.

因此，总的来说，每个增长团队都需要一个北极星指标。

It's so important to have singular focus on what the business results are that you are working to drive in your team.

重点关注您在团队中努力推动的业务成果非常重要。

On our activation team, which as I mentioned focused on onboarding, though in theory there could be other ways that you want to focus on driving activation, we had one north star metric which was what we called our team activation metric.

正如我提到的，我们的激活团队专注于入职，尽管理论上您可能希望通过其他方式专注于驱动激活，但我们有一个北极星指标，这就是我们所说的团队激活指标。

So, this representative, a team of people were activated on Airtable's product and using it in a way that suggested they would be long-term retained.

因此，这位代表和一个团队被 Airtable 的产品激活，并以一种表明他们将长期保留的方式使用该产品。

For us, that was week four, multi-user, meaning in the fourth week, more than one person on that team is active and contributing to a workflow on Airtable.

对我们来说，这是第四周，多用户，这意味着在第四周，该团队中不止一个人活跃并为 Airtable 上的工作流程做出贡献。

Lauryn Isford: This metric is something that our wonderful analytics team determined to be highly correlated with long-term retention.

Lauryn Isford：我们出色的分析团队确定该指标与长期保留率高度相关。

It's also a metric that holds a relatively high bar, so it requires a number of things to be true, that something of substance has been built, that people persist and continue to collaborate, that they're collaborating on a weekly cadence, and also holds a relatively high bar on exactly how they're contributing, meaning that the sum total of this is somewhat hard to achieve which means that we have a hard job and also a high bar as an activation team to achieve that for as many customers as possible.

这也是一个具有相对较高标准的指标，因此它需要很多事情是真实的，即已经建立了一些实质性的东西，人们坚持并继续合作，他们以每周的节奏进行协作，并且在他们的贡献方式上也保持了一个相对较高的标准，这意味着这一切的总和有点难以实现，这意味着我们作为一个激活团队要为尽可能多的客户实现这一目标，有一项艰巨的工作，也有一个很高的标准。

Lauryn Isford: In general, I think an activation rate that falls in a lower percentage range, maybe for most companies five to 15%, is better than one that falls in a higher percentage range because it means that there's likely much higher correlation with long-term retention and you're really working hard to get most of your users to reach a state that they're not reaching today.

Lauryn Isford：总的来说，我认为较低百分比范围内的激活率（对于大多数公司来说可能为 5% 到 15%）比较高百分比范围内的激活率要好，因为这意味着与长期保留的相关性可能更高，而且您确实正在努力让大多数用户达到他们今天未达到的状态。

Lenny: I really like that heuristic.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这种启发式。

So, the idea there is when you're picking an activation metric, you want it to be in the single digits potentially because you're saying that's more likely to be correlated with retention because retention's probably pretty low long term.

因此，当你选择一个激活指标时，你可能希望它是个位数，因为你说这更有可能与保留率相关，因为长期保留率可能相当低。

Is that kind of the rough idea?

这是一个粗略的想法吗？

Lauryn Isford: That's a rough idea.

Lauryn Isford：这是一个粗略的想法。

Of course, the metric should be correlated with retention no matter what, but if 40% of your customers are still active at week four maybe with a metric that would be week four active rate, then only a fraction of those are still going to be active in month 12, in month 18, and month 24, and I would much prefer to pick a more specific, more precise metric that maybe only 5% of users reach, but know that those 5% of users will be with us for the long haul, and if we could get that 5% even to 6% or 7%, it would have huge downstream effects on long-term metrics for the business.

当然，无论如何，该指标都应该与保留率相关，但如果 40% 的客户在第四周仍然活跃，也许使用第四周活跃率的指标，那么其中只有一小部分在第 12 个月、第 18 个月和第 24 个月仍然活跃，我更愿意选择一个更具体、更精确的指标，可能只有 5% 的用户达到，但要知道这 5% 的用户将长期与我们在一起，如果我们能够达到 5% 甚至 6% 或 7%，这将对业务的长期指标产生巨大的下游影响。

So, that's why I would opt for a more specific metric.

因此，这就是为什么我会选择更具体的指标。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, this activation metric, week four multi-user active is a really interesting metric.

因此，第四周多用户活跃这个激活指标是一个非常有趣的指标。

Can you talk a bit about how you actually operationalize this and put this to work on your team to help people understand what to work on and make sure they're moving the right sorts of numbers?

您能否谈谈您如何实际实施这一点并将其应用到您的团队中，以帮助人们了解要做什么并确保他们移动正确类型的数字？

Lauryn Isford: Totally.

劳伦·伊斯福德：完全可以。

So, one of the first things that we did when me and my team started to revisit week four multi-user active right before we started to rebuild onboarding is break that metric down into all of its component.

因此，当我和我的团队在开始重建入职之前开始重新审视第四周的多用户活跃度时，我们所做的第一件事就是将该指标分解为其所有组成部分。

So, if you really think about what goes into that number, how many teams sign up as a team versus as an individual, how many of them make it to week four, how many of them have more than two people invited versus more than two people who've ever been active, versus more than two people who were active in the fourth week, maybe they have one person active in the fourth week, and then what does active mean, and what are the different kinds of behaviors that constitute contribution or being active.

所以，如果你认真思考一下这个数字的内容，有多少团队以团队形式注册，有多少团队以个人身份注册，有多少团队能进入第四周，有多少团队有两个以上的人受邀，有多少人曾经活跃过，有两个以上的人在第四周活跃，也许他们有一个人在第四周活跃，然后活跃意味着什么，以及构成贡献或活跃的不同类型的行为是什么。

Doing that really detailed work on the metric helped us understand what levers we could pull to have a really big impact on activation overall.

对指标进行非常详细的研究有助于我们了解可以利用哪些杠杆对整体激活产生真正的重大影响。

Lauryn Isford: Additionally, we actually started using more metrics.

Lauryn Isford：此外，我们实际上开始使用更多指标。

So, we didn't just use our activation rate metric week four multi-user active to make all of our decisions.

因此，我们不仅仅使用第四周多用户活跃的激活率指标来做出所有决策。

We introduced a few more, and one of them with purely a retention metric for an individual.

我们还介绍了一些，其中一个纯粹是针对个人的保留指标。

Are you week two retained?

第二周你还留着吗？

Are you week four retained?

第四周你还留着吗？

The other was what we called Build with a capital B, and this was roughly a sophistication score.

另一个是我们所说的大写 B 的 Build，这大致是一个复杂度分数。

So, for someone who's building something, have they reached sort of intermediate levels of use of Airtable?

那么，对于正在构建某些东西的人来说，他们是否已经达到了 Airtable 的中等使用水平？

The reason why we added these metrics is we were building new mechanisms for onboarding that were helping users build more effectively and find more value in Airtable, but sometimes those treatments helped users become more sophisticated but didn't help them invite more teammates, or sometimes those new mechanisms made someone more interested in giving us a shot for a few more weeks, but what they built was actually not any more impressive than if they had done it on their own.

我们添加这些指标的原因是我们正在构建新的入职机制，帮助用户更有效地构建并在 Airtable 中找到更多价值，但有时这些处理方法可以帮助用户变得更加成熟，但并不能帮助他们邀请更多的队友，或者有时这些新机制让某人更有兴趣给我们多几周的机会，但他们构建的内容实际上并不比他们自己做的更令人印象深刻。

Lauryn Isford: So, this group of metrics actually really set us free.

Lauryn Isford：所以，这组指标实际上真正让我们自由了。

It gave us those constraints where we could actually measure success in a few different ways and think about activation as being more complicated than just a single metric and celebrate anything we could do to help on a couple of dimensions.

它给了我们一些限制，我们实际上可以用几种不同的方式来衡量成功，并认为激活比单一指标更复杂，并庆祝我们可以在几个维度上提供帮助的任何事情。

So, I know it's a little unconventional to have a few metrics that you work with, but we did find that that was really helpful when we were making big changes.

所以，我知道使用一些指标有点不合常规，但我们确实发现，当我们做出重大改变时，这确实很有帮助。

Lenny: That is actually really interesting.

莱尼：这实际上非常有趣。

So, it makes it feel like the core activation metric you talked about was more of an output metric and you kind of realized here's the things we could actually be moving directly.

所以，这让人感觉你所说的核心激活指标更像是一个输出指标，你意识到这是我们实际上可以直接移动的东西。

Is that roughly how you thought about it?

你大概是这么想的吗？

Lauryn Isford: Exactly.

劳伦·伊斯福德：没错。

It also helped us grapple with some of the tensions we felt which I know a lot of teams working on activation and onboarding feel, which is picking one metric doesn't paint the whole picture of what you're trying to achieve when you help a user onboard to your product and when you educate them about what's possible.

它还帮助我们解决了我们感受到的一些紧张局势，我知道很多团队都在致力于激活和入职感觉，即选择一个指标并不能描绘出当您帮助用户使用您的产品以及当您教育他们什么是可能的时您想要实现的目标的全貌。

So, in having sophistication and retention and an element of team use all as part of the fabric of how we talked about activation, it made us much more well-rounded as a team.

因此，在我们谈论激活的方式中，拥有复杂性和保留性以及团队使用的元素，这使得我们作为一个团队更加全面。

Lenny: That connects a bit to, so we worked on this post together about how to choose an activation metric and you shared part of this story for that post, and there's a little bit of a debate amongst folks that contributed their opinion on how to decide an activation metric, where it's a debate between is it okay to have a workspace activation metric where it's like how many boards somebody creates, how many Airtables somebody has created versus a user action, like user has created 10 tables or user using it two times a week.

Lenny：这有一点联系，所以我们一起写了这篇关于如何选择激活指标的文章，你在这篇文章中分享了这个故事的一部分，人们之间有一些争论，他们就如何决定激活指标发表了自己的意见，争论的焦点是是否可以有一个工作区激活指标，比如某人创建了多少个板，某人创建了多少个 Airtable 与用户操作，比如用户创建了 10 个表或用户使用它两次一周。

I think you're on the side of workspace is maybe a more interesting metric for a collaboration tool, and it's interesting that you end up with both in the end which I think is kind of where folks landed.

我认为你在工作空间方面可能是协作工具的一个更有趣的指标，有趣的是你最终得到了两者，我认为这是人们着陆的地方。

You probably look at how's the company using this tool and then per user, are they using it consistently.

您可能会查看公司如何使用此工具，然后查看每个用户是否始终如一地使用它。

So, I guess the question is just what's your take on user specific activation metric versus workspace level activation metric?

所以，我想问题是您对用户特定激活指标与工作区级别激活指标有何看法？

Lauryn Isford: I really like this question.

Lauryn Isford：我真的很喜欢这个问题。

I agree it is a great debate.

我同意这是一场精彩的辩论。

I'm not sure there's a clear answer because it does depend on your product.

我不确定是否有明确的答案，因为这确实取决于您的产品。

In the case of Airtable, which is a product that has seat-based pricing and generally horizontal adoption, it totally makes sense to have a workspace activation measure because you want to understand in an account, in an organization how many folks are actually using a product and finding value.

以 Airtable 为例，该产品采用基于座位的定价方式，并且普遍采用横向采用，因此制定工作空间激活措施是完全有意义的，因为您想了解一个帐户、一个组织中有多少人实际使用该产品并发现价值。

That can be different for tools that might look like Airtable but have different mechanisms for growth or different pricing or different vertical personas that tend to adopt it.

对于看起来像 Airtable 但具有不同增长机制或不同定价或倾向于采用它的不同垂直角色的工具来说，情况可能有所不同。

So, I do think there is some variance.

所以，我确实认为存在一些差异。

I do have a reaction to share with you that's a little spicy-

我确实有一个反应要与你分享，有点辣-

Lauryn Isford: ...

劳伦·艾斯福德：...

is that it's important that growth teams are agile and this means that north stars, key metrics, focus metrics will change, and if you're working on the same metric forever, there's probably some inefficiency in actually chasing the biggest impact for the business.

增长团队的敏捷性很重要，这意味着北极星、关键指标、焦点指标都会发生变化，如果你永远致力于同一个指标，那么在真正追求对业务的最大影响时可能会效率低下。

So, I would be open-minded about if a workspace or team or account activation metric is always the right thing to focus on.

因此，对于工作空间、团队或帐户激活指标是否始终是值得关注的正确事物，我持开放态度。

Team activation looks really healthy because your growth team did some really amazing work on it, maybe user retention is the right place to focus next year.

团队激活看起来非常健康，因为您的增长团队在这方面做了一些非常出色的工作，也许用户保留是明年重点关注的地方。

Maybe it's more about conversion.

也许更多的是关于转换。

Maybe it's more about some other signal for long-term retention, and I would be open to being dynamic and changing that metric over time.

也许更多的是关于长期保留的其他一些信号，我愿意保持动态并随着时间的推移改变该指标。

Stability in metric is great, it helps with momentum, it helps with building expertise, but sometimes we overfocus on picking the perfect north star metric and by the time you feel like you've found the perfect one, it's actually time to move on to something different and work on a different opportunity.

指标的稳定性很好，它有助于增强动力，有助于建立专业知识，但有时我们过度关注选择完美的北极星指标，当您觉得自己找到了完美的指标时，实际上是时候转向不同的事情并寻找不同的机会了。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Contentful, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and then set you to north star metrics, like activation, retention, subscriptions, and payments, and Eppo supports test on the front end, the back end, email marketing, and even machine learning clients.

Eppo 让您超越基本的点击率指标，然后为您设置北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款，并且 Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，获取 E-P-P-O.com 并获得 10 倍的实验速度。

Lenny: Is there an example of that that comes to mind when you talk about being a little stuck on a metric?

Lenny：当你谈到有点拘泥于某个指标时，你会想到一个例子吗？

Is that something you went through at Airtable or anywhere else you worked?

您在 Airtable 或您工作过的其他地方是否经历过这种情况？

Lauryn Isford: I've gone through it plenty of times.

Lauryn Isford：我已经经历过很多次了。

We actually at the organizational level on the Airtable growth award changed our north star metric a couple times which is a big deal that manifests for several teams.

事实上，我们在 Airtable 增长奖的组织层面上多次改变了我们的北极星指标，这对多个团队来说都是一件大事。

Roughly the arc of that change for us was shifting from being a growth org focused on revenue to a growth organization focused on user growth and customer growth.

对于我们来说，这种变化的大致轨迹是从专注于收入的增长组织转变为专注于用户增长和客户增长的增长组织。

This for us was a really important moment where we decided that it was most essential in our work to grow the business to bring millions more people onto the platform, using the product and finding value in the product, because we were taking a decade's long view that they could always become monetized or converted customers later, and there wasn't really a rush.

这对我们来说是一个非常重要的时刻，我们决定发展业务，让更多的人进入平台，使用产品并发现产品的价值，这是我们工作中最重要的时刻，因为我们着眼于十年的长期愿景，即他们以后总能成为货币化或转化为客户，而且并不着急。

We felt that focusing on revenue led us to make some decisions that were a bit more short-term oriented than would be ideal.

我们认为，对收入的关注导致我们做出了一些比理想情况更短期化的决定。

Lauryn Isford: There's also a dynamic here where in the world of enterprise SaaS, the world of B2B SaaS, there's a new theme called product-led sales that's very hot right now, and this means that often in a PLG company there's some ideal end goal of handing off certain customers to have a sales conversation or to close an enterprise contract.

Lauryn Isford：这里还有一个动态，在企业 SaaS 世界、B2B SaaS 世界中，有一个名为“产品主导销售”的新主题，现在非常热门，这意味着在 PLG 公司中，通常有一些理想的最终目标，即让某些客户进行销售对话或签订企业合同。

In that case, you might actually prefer to delay revenue for months or quarters or years to manifest it later, and when that's the case, your growth team should be fully aligned in lockstep with sales and with go-to-market team and focusing on user growth is actually the right call.

在这种情况下，您实际上可能更愿意将收入推迟几个月、几个季度或几年，以便稍后体现出来，在这种情况下，您的增长团队应该与销售和市场推广团队完全保持一致，专注于用户增长实际上是正确的选择。

So, that's an example of a big pivot that we made, and in doing that, we felt more strategic clarity and were able to move faster.

所以，这是我们做出重大转变的一个例子，在这样做的过程中，我们感到战略更加清晰，并且能够更快地采取行动。

Lenny: That is an awesome story.

莱尼：那是一个很棒的故事。

How long did that process take and any advice for folks that might be going through a similar journey of maybe we should rethink our north star metric not and not be revenue?

这个过程花了多长时间？对于可能经历类似旅程的人们有什么建议吗？也许我们应该重新考虑我们的北极星指标，而不是收入？

Any advice there?

有什么建议吗？

Lauryn Isford: In general, I would say having stability in north star metric for at least six months feels like table stakes to me and that's for the reasons that I cited before, for building momentum, for building domain expertise, and also for compounding impact in areas where you see success, where you notice growth flywheels that you can optimize.

Lauryn Isford：总的来说，我想说，在北极星指标上保持至少六个月的稳定性对我来说就像是赌注，这就是我之前提到的原因，为了建立动力，为了建立领域专业知识，也是为了在你看到成功的领域，你注意到可以优化的增长飞轮的领域产生复合影响。

However, if you're reaching a point where that north star metric feels like it's old news, maybe you're outgrowing it, maybe you want to work on different things, I think that's great.

然而，如果你已经达到了北极星指标感觉像是过时的地步，也许你已经超越了它，也许你想从事不同的事情，我认为这很好。

Be open-minded about changing it up.

对改变持开放态度。

I would generally try to start with the mechanics of the business and what you think you might be able to drive in terms of metric impact with the resources you have on your growth team.

我通常会尝试从业务机制开始，以及您认为您可以利用您在增长团队中拥有的资源在指标影响方面推动什么。

That can look different for every growth team because some of them have marketing, some are more product and engineering, some are kind of a mix of both or even something different than that.

对于每个增长团队来说，这看起来可能有所不同，因为有些团队负责营销，有些团队更多的是产品和工程，有些是两者的混合，甚至有些不同。

Lauryn Isford: So, I would start with what impact do we think we could have?

Lauryn Isford：那么，我首先要谈谈我们认为我们可以产生什么影响？

Where do we think the biggest opportunity is to chase?

我们认为最大的机会在哪里去追逐？

You can literally draw a funnel on a whiteboard and map it out and brainstorm together, do some analysis on the side, and when you see what opportunity feels like the most important thing to chase, try to build a north star metric that reflects the output of that work, rather than drives all of your decision-making from the beginning.

你可以在白板上画一个漏斗，把它画出来，一起集思广益，边做一些分析，当你看到什么机会感觉像是最需要追逐的东西时，尝试建立一个反映该工作产出的北极星指标，而不是从一开始就驱动你的所有决策。

A north star metric should really be a measure of what you plan to do, the strategy you plan to deliver is delivering results for the business on the other side, rather than the other way around.

北极星指标实际上应该衡量您计划做什么，您计划交付的策略是为另一方的业务提供结果，而不是相反。

Lenny: So, you mentioned trials and freemium at one point and I want to spend a little time on this, and I know you also have some strong opinions about this kind of debate.

莱尼：所以，你曾经提到过试用和免费增值，我想花一点时间在这上面，而且我知道你对这种辩论也有一些强烈的看法。

Another debate people have, there's always debates in growth, between offering a trial or offering a freemium product, self-serve, and I think your perspective is you should do both, and I think maybe you call it a reverse trial because I was doing some research.

人们的另一个争论是，关于增长，在提供试用或提供免费增值产品、自助服务之间总是存在争论，我认为你的观点是你应该两者都做，我想也许你称其为反向试验，因为我正在做一些研究。

So, I guess is that true?, Is that how you see the world, and then just generally, why do you believe that that is the right approach?

所以，我想这是真的吗？这是你看待世界的方式，然后一般来说，你为什么认为这是正确的方法？

Lauryn Isford: What is it about all these growth people with their strong opinion?

Lauryn Isford：这些拥有强烈观点的成长型人士是怎么回事？

Lauryn Isford: I guess I have so many of them.

Lauryn Isford：我想我有很多这样的人。

You're educating me on my own perspectives today.

今天你以我自己的观点来教育我。

Freemium and free trials.

免费增值和免费试用。

So, to get on the same page with definitions for all of our wonderful listeners, a free trial is when you can use the product for free for a limited time and then your only option beyond that limited time is to pay for use of the product.

因此，为了让我们所有优秀听众的定义达成一致，免费试用是指您可以在有限的时间内免费使用该产品，然后在该有限的时间内您唯一的选择就是付费使用该产品。

Freemium would be when there are multiple options for how to use the product and one of those options is an infinitely free version of the product.

免费增值是指产品的使用方式有多种选择，其中之一是产品的无限免费版本。

So, you can use Airtable for free forever or you can pay some amount and have access to premium features.

因此，您可以永久免费使用 Airtable，也可以支付一定费用来使用高级功能。

Lauryn Isford: So, with all that in mind, personally I'm in the camp of offering a reverse trial.

Lauryn Isford：因此，考虑到所有这些，我个人赞成提供反向审判。

Funky name, but what that means is offer a trial but also offer freemium.

名字很时髦，但这意味着提供试用版，同时也提供免费增值服务。

Do both.

两者都做。

The reason why I like this is you get an opportunity when somebody shows up and says, "Hey, I'm going to give your product a try today," to show them everything that's possible.

我喜欢这个的原因是，当有人出现并说“嘿，我今天要尝试一下你的产品”时，你就有机会向他们展示一切可能的东西。

Onboarding is a huge component of that.

入职培训是其中的一个重要组成部分。

Help somebody get started, have those aha moments and experience initial value, but also this is your moment to showcase everything that can be done with your really cool product, and you have some limited number of days, maybe seven days, 14 days, 30 days, to showcase all of the cool things that your company is building for your customers.

帮助别人开始，拥有那些顿悟时刻并体验最初的价值，但这也是你展示你真正酷的产品可以做的一切的时刻，你有一些有限的天数，也许7天，14天，30天，来展示你的公司正在为你的客户构建的所有很酷的东西。

That is the beauty of a free trial.

这就是免费试用的美妙之处。

It's not just that someone can try your product without paying.

这不仅仅是有人可以免费试用您的产品。

It's that they can try even more of the product, all of the premium, amazing advanced offerings that could be possible if they decide they want to settle on a premium plan.

他们可以尝试更多的产品，如果他们决定选择高级计划，那么所有高级、令人惊叹的高级产品都是可能的。

Lauryn Isford: When you are deciding if this is something you want to do, I would actually take a big step back from looking at competitive pricing pages and getting into the details and reading blogs and just think about what your philosophy is as a business on monetizing customers.

Lauryn Isford：当你决定这是否是你想做的事情时，我实际上会后退一大步，不再查看有竞争力的定价页面，进入细节并阅读博客，而是思考你作为一家企业通过客户获利的理念是什么。

The reason for this is generally the reason to offer a free plan or a free trial but really a free plan, the freemium type of pricing model is if you value letting millions, tens of millions of customers give your product a try, even if they never pay you a dollar.

这样做的原因通常是提供免费计划或免费试用的原因，但实际上是免费计划，免费增值类型的定价模式是如果您重视让数百万、数千万客户尝试您的产品，即使他们从未向您支付一美元。

That shows to me prioritization and value of user grab, brand awareness, and exposure of your product more than just revenue.

这向我展示了用户获取、品牌知名度和产品曝光的优先级和价值，而不仅仅是收入。

And if that's the case, a freemium pricing structure can be really great for your product, and it give you the space to see if your product can become that household name that everybody is familiar with and can give a try and get some early value and even experience some aha moments.

如果是这样的话，免费增值定价结构对你的产品来说真的很棒，它给你空间来看看你的产品是否可以成为每个人都熟悉的家喻户晓的名字，并且可以尝试并获得一些早期价值，甚至体验一些顿悟时刻。

Lauryn Isford: On top of that, you can offer a free trial to show what's possible with premium value and then that really can just be focused space for you to say, "Hey, look what's possible if you pay us $5 a month, $10 a month," and you might even get some extra conversion out of that and some more paid customers.

Lauryn Isford：最重要的是，你可以提供免费试用来展示高价值的可能性，然后这真的可以成为你集中的空间，让你说，“嘿，看看如果你每月支付 5 美元、10 美元，会发生什么”，你甚至可能从中获得一些额外的转化和更多的付费客户。

So, in general, that's how I think about it.

所以，总的来说，这就是我的想法。

I like the reverse trial because user growth is important and if you're in a long game where you're trying to grow a business for a decade or more, ideally you're trying to get millions of people onto your product and you can always have that monetization conversation later, but you only get a couple moments where you can say, "Hey, pull out your credit card or let's get on the phone and talk about an enterprise contract," with a customer before you lose trust or lose patience.

我喜欢反向试验，因为用户增长很重要，如果你在一场漫长的游戏中，你想在十年或更长时间里发展业务，理想情况下，你试图让数百万人使用你的产品，你总是可以稍后进行货币化对话，但你只能在失去信任或失去耐心之前与客户说，“嘿，拿出你的信用卡，或者让我们打电话来讨论企业合同”。

And so, that focus on helping them discover value and build loyalty to you is much more important.

因此，专注于帮助他们发现价值并建立对您的忠诚度更为重要。

Lenny: I really like this concept, a super cool name too.

Lenny：我真的很喜欢这个概念，也是一个超级酷的名字。

I'm also thinking back to some of the SaaS tools I've used that have had this where I go straight into the pro plan and then I'm like, "Oh, I don't want to lose all these features," and then I actually end up buying it.

我还回想起我使用过的一些 SaaS 工具，我直接进入专业计划，然后我想，“哦，我不想失去所有这些功能”，然后我实际上最终购买了它。

So, when I'm hearing this, it sounds to me like it's a better version of the freemium approach.

因此，当我听到这个消息时，我觉得这是免费增值方法的更好版本。

I imagine there's still many SaaS tools that are very enterprise-y, take handholding, maybe this goes away.

我想仍然有许多非常企业化的 SaaS 工具，需要掌握，也许这种情况会消失。

I know Elena Verna who's been on the podcast is just a huge proponent of everyone will be product-led, self-serve eventually, but until that day they're still like, I don't know, I think of Retool I think is very hands-on, handhold-y, front I think is like that.

我知道一直在播客上的 Elena Verna 是每个人最终都会以产品为主导、自助服务的大力支持者，但直到那一天他们仍然是这样的，我不知道，我认为 Retool 非常亲力亲为，手持式，前面我认为就是这样。

There's all these tools that people don't get really quickly.

人们无法很快获得所有这些工具。

Lenny: And so, I guess do you still think there's a need for some of these tools that need sales and customer success involvement to stick with just trial at least for now, or do you think they should all kind of find a way to get to self-serve and a reverse trial?

莱尼：所以，我想您是否仍然认为其中一些需要销售和客户成功参与的工具至少目前需要坚持试用，或者您认为它们都应该找到一种方法来实现自助服务和反向试用？

Lauryn Isford: I do really agree with what Elena said.

Lauryn Isford：我非常同意埃琳娜所说的。

I really look forward to the day when self-serve and freemium are possible for every product, but I also recognize that that can be really expensive to build and implement and is not for everyone.

我真的很期待有一天每种产品都可以实现自助服务和免费增值，但我也认识到，构建和实施这可能非常昂贵，而且并不适合所有人。

So, that's cool too.

所以，这也很酷。

There are other options.

还有其他选择。

In general, I think freemium and also free trials tend to be most effective when there's something that the person who signed up can actually do on their own without being handheld.

总的来说，我认为当注册者可以在不手持设备的情况下自己做一些事情时，免费增值和免费试用往往是最有效的。

It doesn't have to be full functionality.

它不必是完整的功能。

It can be exploring a sandbox or a demo or something they can poke around in and experience value, see that aha moment.

它可以是探索沙盒或演示或他们可以探索并体验价值的东西，看看那个顿悟时刻。

That's great.

那太棒了。

That's a moment where you can give value to that person who's chosen to spend time with your product.

在这个时刻，您可以为选择花时间使用您的产品的人赋予价值。

If that's not possible, there are different ways to be creative that don't require having premium pricing.

如果这是不可能的，可以采用不同的方式来发挥创意，并且不需要高价。

You can think about how to use concepts related to PLG and related to top of funnel adoption in different ways.

您可以考虑如何以不同的方式使用与 PLG 相关的概念以及与漏斗顶部采用相关的概念。

Lauryn Isford: So, maybe you can create custom landing pages or experiences that help showcase value without a full signup or free plan or free trial experience.

Lauryn Isford：因此，也许您可​​以创建自定义登录页面或体验来帮助展示价值，而无需完全注册或免费计划或免费试用体验。

Maybe you give folks the ability to sign up and while they've sort of signed up as an interested customer, they're not fully experiencing things, they might not even have the option to pay for something yet, but they can learn.

也许你让人们能够注册，虽然他们已经注册为感兴趣的客户，但他们还没有完全体验事物，他们甚至可能还没有选择支付某些东西，但他们可以学习。

There's some resources.

有一些资源。

There's some education for them to experience.

他们可以经历一些教育。

Or, maybe you can think about top of funnel adoption or traffic as being most helpful for extension within customers you already.

或者，也许您可​​以认为漏斗顶部的采用或流量对于在您已有的客户中进行扩展最有帮助。

So, if you've signed contracts with a couple really large Fortune 500 companies and somebody wants to join and signs up on your website from the same email domain, then you can provide an experience for them that might feel like it helps them learn the mechanics that's actually only available to folks who are part of organizations that already have contracts with you.

因此，如果您已经与几家大型财富 500 强公司签订了合同，并且有人想从同一电子邮件域加入并在您的网站上注册，那么您可以为他们提供一种体验，这种体验可能会帮助他们学习实际上只适用于已与您签订合同的组织的人员的机制。

Lauryn Isford: It's a different way of thinking about PLG and not necessarily something you would offer for free, they're already an enterprise customer, but some of those concepts can still have a lot of value and help you grow the footprint of an account in an organization, and those are definitely awesome things to try if you can't offer something self-serve.

Lauryn Isford：这是一种看待 PLG 的不同方式，不一定是免费提供的东西，他们已经是企业客户，但其中一些概念仍然具​​有很大的价值，可以帮助您扩大帐户在组织中的足迹，如果您无法提供自助服务，那么这些绝对是值得尝试的很棒的事情。

Lenny: So, what I'm hearing is find ways to make things some component of it self-serve so that you don't need to necessarily talk to someone immediately.

莱尼：所以，我听到的是想办法让事情的某些部分变得自助，这样你就不必立即与某人交谈。

They can start to understand some element of it on maybe an interactive planning page or some very simple part of the product.

他们可以开始在交互式规划页面或产品的一些非常简单的部分上理解其中的某些元素。

Lauryn Isford: Exactly.

劳伦·伊斯福德：没错。

I think the key is to figure out what it would be like for someone to experience value when there's no human sitting next to them, and that value doesn't have to be full functionality of the product.

我认为关键是要弄清楚当没有人坐在旁边时，某人体验价值会是什么样子，而且这种价值不一定是产品的全部功能。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Coming back to onboarding, and this is my last onboarding question, I have another topic I wanted to touch on.

回到入职，这是我的最后一个入职问题，我还有另一个话题想谈。

Do you have any just general pieces of advice, either probably this will work if you're working on onboarding/things that probably won't work and are common traps that people fall into when they're trying to optimize onboarding activation flows in general?

您是否有任何一般性的建议，或者如果您正在处理入职/可能行不通的事情，这可能会起作用，并且是人们在尝试优化一般入职激活流程时陷入的常见陷阱？

Lauryn Isford: I do see a very common trap that I would love to caution against, which is that employees of a company build onboarding for customers, but they build what they think customers want rather than what customers actually want, and that manifests in an onboarding experience that's not very helpful.

Lauryn Isford：我确实看到了一个非常常见的陷阱，我想提醒大家注意，那就是公司的员工为客户构建入职流程，但他们构建的是他们认为客户想要的东西，而不是客户真正想要的东西，这体现在入职体验上，这并不是很有帮助。

So, there are two patterns that I typically see.

因此，我通常会看到两种模式。

One is naming features.

一是命名特征。

So, imagine you're using Airtable for the first time and you see a tooltip and it says, "This is automations," and it explains what automations is to you.

因此，想象一下您第一次使用 Airtable，您看到一个工具提示，上面写着“这是自动化”，它解释了自动化对您来说意味着什么。

That's not that useful for a user who doesn't really know what's going on yet because they aren't sure if automations are relevant to them, if they're suited to their use case, what exactly the word automation entails.

对于那些还不真正知道发生了什么的用户来说，这没有多大用处，因为他们不确定自动化是否与他们相关，是否适合他们的用例，以及自动化这个词到底意味着什么。

We've named a feature, but it's really sort of an announcement of something awesome that Airtable built, rather than an application that can help educate the user on how they'll receive more value from that feature.

我们已经命名了一个功能，但这实际上是对 Airtable 构建的一些很棒的东西的宣布，而不是一个可以帮助教育用户如何从该功能中获得更多价值的应用程序。

Try not to name features.

尽量不要命名功能。

It can be very tempting in practice, even though it sounds easy in theory.

尽管理论上听起来很简单，但在实践中它可能非常诱人。

Lenny: Before you move on, what have you learned about how to actually name things in such a way people understand?

莱尼：在继续之前，关于如何以人们理解的方式实际命名事物，您学到了什么？

Is there some you do there?

你在那里做一些吗？

Lauryn Isford: Ooh, naming things in a way people understand.

Lauryn Isford：哦，以人们理解的方式命名。

Lenny: Versus the feature name, like you just said.

Lenny：就像你刚才说的，与功能名称相对。

Lauryn Isford: So, instead of that, I think what would be more useful, given the constraints of using a tooltip that's pushing someone to try an automation would be to explain how the automation is relevant to them, or even better, to enable a one-touch turn-on of the automation feature or set up an automation to complete your workflow where we actually do some of the work and if you click into here, we will show you what value is possible and help you get it to the finish line.

Lauryn Isford：因此，我认为，考虑到使用工具提示来推动某人尝试自动化的限制，更有用的是解释自动化与他们的关系，或者更好的是，启用自动化功能的一键式打开或设置自动化来完成您的工作流程，我们实际上在其中完成一些工作，如果您点击此处，我​​们将向您展示可能的价值并帮助您完成它。

So, really focusing on that contextual application or helping to drive towards an outcome, rather than just educating on a name.

因此，真正关注上下文应用或帮助推动结果，而不仅仅是名称教育。

Lenny: And there's an element of smart defaulting, just like starting to do it for them versus do you want this or not.

莱尼：还有一个智能违约的元素，就像开始为他们做这件事，而不是你想要或不想这样做。

Lauryn Isford: Exactly.

劳伦·伊斯福德：没错。

There's also an element here of segmentation or personalization where you should be sensible about if everybody needs to know what an automation is or if there are only certain folks who actually need to learn about it and others might not need to know.

这里还有一个细分或个性化的元素，您应该明智地考虑是否每个人都需要知道什么是自动化，或者是否只有某些人真正需要了解它而其他人可能不需要知道。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

All right.

好的。

Back to your other suggestions.

回到你的其他建议。

Lauryn Isford: Oh yes, there is one other suggestion which is if you're working on a SaaS product, especially a freemium product, there's probably some pricing and packaging scheme that explains which features are available for free, which features are not, how many you get, and sort of maps out usage of the product, both for free users if you offer a free plan, and then for premium users if you offer premium plans.

Lauryn Isford：哦，是的，还有另一个建议，如果您正在开发 SaaS 产品，尤其是免费增值产品，可能会有一些定价和包装方案来解释哪些功能是免费的，哪些功能不是，您可以获得多少功能，并绘制出产品的使用情况，如果您提供免费计划，则为免费用户，如果您提供高级计划，则为高级用户。

I find sometimes teams working on onboarding will map onboarding to that pricing or packaging.

我发现有时负责入职培训的团队会将入职培训映射到该定价或包装。

So, for example, maybe automations, to use the same example of the same feature, is something that's generally premium, that if somebody uses automations they're more likely to be a paying customer.

因此，举例来说，也许自动化，使用相同功能的相同示例，通常是优质的，如果有人使用自动化，他们更有可能成为付费客户。

It can be tempting then for an onboarding team to try to push automations to people when they're getting started because of course, we'd prefer if customers use premium features because then they might be more likely to become premium customers, but that is not in the best interest of educating a user on how to get started.

对于入职团队来说，在人们刚开始使用时尝试将自动化推向他们可能很诱人，因为当然，我们更希望客户使用高级功能，因为这样他们可能更有可能成为高级客户，但这并不符合教育用户如何入门的最佳利益。

Lauryn Isford: So, I do think it's very important to be careful that you are rooted in the customer need and rooted in helping that customer achieve maximum value, rather than sitting in the priors of what your packaging scheme might suggest or what might be in the best interest of the company.

Lauryn Isford：所以，我确实认为非常重要的是要小心，您要植根于客户需求并植根于帮助客户实现最大价值，而不是先考虑您的包装方案可能建议的内容或可能符合公司最佳利益的内容。

Lenny: As a growth leader, how do you operationalize that?

Lenny：作为增长领导者，您如何实施这一点？

Is it set some drag metrics?

它是否设置了一些阻力指标？

Is it just philosophically, let's make sure we're optimizing the right metric?

难道只是从哲学上来说，让我们确保我们正在优化正确的指标吗？

What's worked to actually avoid that problem?

怎样才能真正避免这个问题呢？

Lauryn Isford: I think north star metrics help because a team can be singularly focused on the most important result for their roadmap and their charter.

Lauryn Isford：我认为北极星指标有所帮助，因为团队可以专注于其路线图和章程中最重要的结果。

However, guardrail metrics are equally important.

然而，护栏指标同样重要。

So, an onboarding team that builds amazing onboarding that causes a 10% drop in revenue would need some sort of guardrails to make sure that they knew that that might not be the right trade for the business, and importantly, should have the rigor and passion to go deep and understand what caused that drop in revenue and figure out what it was about that onboarding that ultimately caused a guardrail metric to suffer.

因此，一个建立了令人惊叹的入职流程并导致收入下降 10% 的入职团队需要某种护栏，以确保他们知道这可能不是适合企业的交易，而且重要的是，应该有严谨和热情深入了解导致收入下降的原因，并找出最终导致护栏指标受到影响的入职流程。

So, with that in mind, I think guardrail metrics can be very useful and are important to choose wisely.

因此，考虑到这一点，我认为护栏指标非常有用，并且明智地选择很重要。

I love working with strong analytics partners on a growth team because rigor and education around how to think about guardrail metrics is something that we should always be thinking about, whether you are a data analyst in functional specialty or a PM or an engineer or a designer.

我喜欢在增长团队中与强大的分析合作伙伴合作，因为无论您是功能专业的数据分析师还是产品经理、工程师或设计师，我们都应该始终考虑如何考虑护栏指标的严格性和教育。

Lauryn Isford: So, that's how I kind of like to think about it.

Lauryn Isford：所以，这就是我喜欢的思考方式。

I do think guardrail metrics help and then just being well reasoned and thinking about what's best for the business and speaking about your work as being what's best for the business and the customer overall, rather than being too narrow in your own swim lanes of what you work on.

我确实认为护栏指标会有所帮助，然后只是进行充分的推理，思考什么对业务最有利，并将您的工作视为对业务和客户整体最有利的，而不是在您自己的工作范围内过于狭窄。

Lenny: Great advice.

莱尼：很好的建议。

I want to shift to a different topic and this will be much shorter.

我想换一个话题，这个话题会短得多。

You have this really cool framework for thinking about the PLG funnel, product-led growth, and interestingly kind of trickles down to the team you build, metrics you choose, and things like that.

你有一个非常酷的框架来思考 PLG 漏斗、产品主导的增长，以及有趣的渗透到你建立的团队、你选择的指标等等。

So, can you just briefly talk about just this framework that you use to think about PLG growth in the PLG funnel?

那么，您能否简单谈谈您用来思考 PLG 漏斗中 PLG 增长的框架？

Lauryn Isford: When I think about how to grow with PLG in a business that has some element of PLG, self-server, freemium, I usually start with a funnel that roughly maps to the same scaffolding, regardless of business.

Lauryn Isford：当我思考如何在具有 PLG、自助服务、免费增值等元素的业务中与 PLG 一起成长时，我通常会从一个大致映射到相同脚手架的漏斗开始，无论业务如何。

Whether I've worked on the business, whether I'm supporting the business as an advisor, I love starting with this framework.

无论我是否从事过该业务，无论我是否作为顾问支持该业务，我都喜欢从这个框架开始。

The first step is join, the second is evaluate, the third is upgrade, and the fourth is expand.

第一步是加入，第二步是评估，第三步是升级，第四步是扩展。

This funnel represents the journey of a customer in a PLG product as they advance and develop in their lifetime of using the product.

该漏斗代表了客户在使用该产品的整个生命周期中不断进步和发展的 PLG 产品旅程。

It starts with becoming a part of the account that's using the product or signing up, and you might join because you found Airtable on Twitter or you might join because Lenny invited you to use Airtable.

首先成为使用该产品或注册的帐户的一部分，您可能会因为在 Twitter 上找到 Airtable 而加入，也可能因为 Lenny 邀请您使用 Airtable 才加入。

So, there are different ways that you can join that product in the first place.

因此，您可以通过多种方式首先加入该产品。

Lauryn Isford: Then importantly, you evaluate if it's right for you, and that word choice of evaluate is deliberately not onboard or activate because it's about what the user needs to see that they are going to get the value that they want in using your product and in building a habit around it.

Lauryn Isford：那么重要的是，你要评估它是否适合你，而评估这个词的选择是故意不加入或激活的，因为它是关于用户需要看到什么，他们将在使用你的产品并围绕它养成习惯时获得他们想要的价值。

Next is upgrade.

接下来是升级。

Ideally, someone has gone from beginner to intermediate or even advanced in their ongoing education and in getting to know your product over some amount of time and they see premium value and raise their hand and say, "I will convert to it." Now if you offer self-serve premium plans, that's awesome.

理想情况下，有人已经从初级到中级甚至高级，在他们的持续教育中，并在一段时间内了解你的产品，他们看到了超值的价值，并举手说：“我会转向它。”现在，如果您提供自助高级计划，那就太棒了。

They can do it with a credit card right in the product.

他们可以直接在产品中使用信用卡来完成此操作。

Sometimes this means raising their hand to talk to sales and that's great too, but they upgrade to some sort of premium experience or to more value than what they have when they got started.

有时，这意味着他们举手与销售人员交谈，这也很好，但他们会升级到某种优质体验，或者比刚开始时拥有的价值更高。

Lauryn Isford: And finally expand, and vertical says this can be nuanced but with more horizontal tools.

Lauryn Isford：最后扩展一下，垂直方向说这可以是微妙的，但可以使用更多水平工具。

Ideally, a few folks, maybe one, maybe a few are using a tool in an organization and then many more adopt it over time, and that expansion drives net dollar retention, it drives brand awareness, it drives more usage in more pockets of the company, it is awesome for renewal rates if you're working with enterprise contracts, and ultimately then also brings new referrals into the product that loop all the way back to the beginning at join.

理想情况下，组织中有几个人，也许一个人，也许几个人正在使用一种工具，然后随着时间的推移，更多人会采用它，这种扩张会推动净美元保留，提高品牌知名度，推动公司更多领域的更多使用，如果您正在处理企业合同，那么续订率会很棒，最终还会将新的推荐带入产品，一直循环到加入时的开始。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

And what's cool is upgrade and expansion kind of bake in retention.

最酷的是升级和扩展可以提高保留率。

You're not going to upgrade, you're not going to expand if you're not retained.

如果你不被保留，你就不会升级，你就不会扩张。

Can you talk a little bit about how you use this framework?

您能谈谈您如何使用这个框架吗？

Do you bucket?

你桶吗？

Do you have these four teams on your growth team that focus on each of these stages?

您的增长团队中有这四个团队专注于每个阶段吗？

Is it more of a conceptual framework?

它更像是一个概念框架吗？

Do you come up with KPIs for each of these steps?

您是否为每个步骤制定了 KPI？

How do you actually operationalize this concept?

您如何实际操作这个概念？

Lauryn Isford: I think this framework is a step to abstract to represent exactly how you should structure your teams or to be represented with four metrics, for KPIs.

Lauryn Isford：我认为这个框架是抽象的一个步骤，可以准确地表示您应该如何构建团队或用四个指标来表示 KPI。

However, it's a really good conceptual way of grounding your team or your organization in the mechanics of how machine that is the business you work on run.

然而，这是一种非常好的概念方法，可以让您的团队或组织了解您所从事的业务的机器如何运行的机制。

From there, it can become much easier to communicate with each other on where you see opportunity on specific pockets of the product that might be impactful.

从那里，您可以更轻松地相互沟通，了解您在产品的特定领域中看到的可能有影响力的机会。

So, for example, you might be working on a strategy related to landing pages and be able to name that that's going to help drive joins in new organization, and that's a really awesome way to communicate why you might invest there versus investing in something related to onboarding that would help with evaluate.

因此，例如，您可能正在制定与登陆页面相关的策略，并且能够指出这将有助于推动新组织的加入，这是一种非常好的方式来传达为什么您可能在那里投资，而不是投资于与入职相关的有助于评估的内容。

Lauryn Isford: So, I love this framework because it helps everyone communicate clearly and also you can derive from it more specifically what are the opportunities that are relevant to us with this framework in mind, and then revisit it over time to gut check if you feel like maybe what you're investing in now is a bit outdated and needs a refresh, or if there are other pockets of the business that need more attention that you might be able to work.

Lauryn Isford：所以，我喜欢这个框架，因为它可以帮助每个人清晰地沟通，而且你可以从中更具体地得出与我们相关的机会，考虑到这个框架，然后随着时间的推移重新审视它，以彻底检查你是否觉得你现在投资的东西有点过时并且需要更新，或者是否还有其他业务需要更多关注，你可能能够工作。

Lenny: Can you talk a bit about how you structured the growth team potentially based on this framework and just generally how you thought about building the growth team at Airtable?

Lenny：您能否谈谈您是如何基于此框架构建增长团队的，以及您在 Airtable 建立增长团队的总体想法？

Lauryn Isford: We had what I think is a pretty relevant set of teams.

Lauryn Isford：我认为我们有一组非常相关的团队。

If you're thinking about building out a few in your own product or organization that focuses on sort of a PLG shape of business, we had one team working on acquisition and they were really responsible for the join.

如果您正在考虑在自己的产品或组织中构建一些专注于 PLG 业务形式的产品，我们有一个团队致力于收购，他们真正负责加入。

So, they mapped actually really well to this funnel.

所以，他们实际上很好地映射到了这个漏斗。

One team working on activation and they mapped pretty closely to evaluate.

一个团队致力于激活，他们非常紧密地进行映射以进行评估。

It wasn't a full representation of what's possible in evaluate.

它并没有完全代表评估中可能发生的事情。

We were pretty focused on the self-serve business and that was different than, for example, helping an enterprise customer evaluate the right offering for them, but that activation team was most closely tied to that second step in the funnel.

我们非常专注于自助服务业务，这与帮助企业客户评估适合他们的产品不同，但激活团队与漏斗中的第二步联系最紧密。

Lauryn Isford: And then we had a monetization team that worked on monetization and pricing and they mapped really closely to the upgrade part of the funnel.

Lauryn Isford：然后我们有一个货币化团队，负责货币化和定价，他们与渠道的升级部分非常紧密地对应。

They did touch some other things as well.

他们也确实触及了其他一些事情。

So, they worked on churn prevention and downgrades.

因此，他们致力于预防客户流失和降级。

They worked on some billing related projects, but in general, they were most thematically aligned with that upgrade step of the funnel.

他们从事一些与计费相关的项目，但总的来说，他们在主题上与渠道的升级步骤最一致。

One area that is more emerging that's interesting is expand.

一个更新兴且有趣的领域是扩展。

So, when we got started on Airtable growth, we didn't have a team dedicated to that expand piece and it became increasingly interesting to us over time as we started to notice that larger companies were using the product.

因此，当我们开始开发 Airtable 时，我们没有专门负责该扩展部分的团队，随着时间的推移，当我们开始注意到更大的公司正在使用该产品时，我们对它变得越来越感兴趣。

This meant that there was a bigger opportunity than there had been before to really help drive expansion and get more folks using the product in those accounts.

这意味着有比以前更大的机会来真正帮助推动扩张并让更多人在这些帐户中使用该产品。

That's an area that emerged later.

这是后来出现的一个领域。

That's a really good example of revisiting your priors and being resilient or agile in your org structure because it wasn't something we set out to work on initially, but it became a really clear opportunity later.

这是一个很好的例子，可以重新审视你的先例，并在你的组织结构中保持弹性或敏捷，因为这不是我们最初打算做的事情，但后来它变成了一个非常明显的机会。

Lenny: You mentioned that Airtable is thinking a little bit more about B2B growth versus just kind of B2C where I think it's been historically.

Lenny：您提到 Airtable 正在更多地考虑 B2B 增长，而不是单纯的 B2C 增长，我认为历史上一直如此。

Can you talk about that and just how you're thinking about that?

您能谈谈这个问题以及您是如何看待这个问题的吗？

Lauryn Isford: B2B growth is an emerging space for growth practitioners and hobbyists like me because the playbook hasn't been written the same way that B2C growth or consumer social growth has been.

Lauryn Isford：对于像我这样的增长从业者和爱好者来说，B2B 增长是一个新兴领域，因为该策略的编写方式与 B2C 增长或消费者社交增长不同。

It's a new space, and there are quite a few companies that are really excited about exploring B2B growth and how to apply the DNA and the mechanics of a growth organization to more of that B2B motion or to working with more upmarket customers or enterprise customers.

这是一个新的领域，有相当多的公司非常热衷于探索 B2B 增长，以及如何将增长型组织的 DNA 和机制应用到更多的 B2B 活动中，或者与更多的高端客户或企业客户合作。

So, it's very top of mind for me.

所以，这对我来说是最重要的。

It's a active conversation in the growth community, especially in San Francisco.

这是增长社区中的一个活跃对话，尤其是在旧金山。

Overall, I'm really excited to see what we can do by applying this approach to growing businesses, to new types of businesses.

总的来说，我真的很高兴看到我们可以通过将这种方法应用于成长型企业和新型企业来做什么。

It will require some differences in execution model.

这将需要执行模型上的一些差异。

So, in B2C or in consumer social as two examples, you can experiment at large volumes or you can make changes that impact thousands or millions of people pretty easily.

因此，以 B2C 或消费者社交为例，您可以进行大量试验，也可以轻松做出影响数千或数百万人的更改。

Lauryn Isford: In B2B growth, generally you're working with a much smaller set of customers and also the risk profile can be very different because smaller numbers of customers that represent larger percentages of your company's total revenue must be treated with absolute care, as opposed to a world where you might have millions of folks coming through your product every day and small changes might not have as big of an impact.

Lauryn Isford：在 B2B 增长中，通常您会与数量少得多的客户合作，而且风险状况可能会非常不同，因为在公司总收入中所占比例较大的少数客户必须得到绝对谨慎的对待，而在现实世界中，每天可能有数百万人使用您的产品，而微小的变化可能不会产生那么大的影响。

In an enterprise organization, it's important to be very careful and rigorous and to prioritize that customer's needs all the time.

在企业组织中，非常谨慎和严格并始终优先考虑客户的需求非常重要。

This means that rigor, that customer conversations, that beta testing, that live prototypes and demos are significantly more important and that face time with the customer is significantly more important than it is in B2C growth.

这意味着，与 B2C 增长相比，严谨性、客户对话、 Beta 测试、实时原型和演示要重要得多，与客户面对面的时间要重要得多。

So, we'll see what happens.

所以，我们会看看会发生什么。

I'm really excited to see more folks who have given growth a try in B2C or in consumer spaces try applying it to B2B because it will become increasingly common in the industry.

我真的很高兴看到更多在 B2C 或消费领域尝试增长的人尝试将其应用到 B2B，因为它将在行业中变得越来越普遍。

Lenny: Well, with that, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：嗯，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

I'll go through it pretty fast.

我会很快讲完。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

第一个问题，您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Lauryn Isford: Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger.

劳伦·伊斯福德 (Lauryn Isford)：鲍勃·艾格 (Bob Iger) 的一生难忘的骑行。

I give this to new reports on my team.

我把这个交给我团队的新报告。

Great book to read when you're thinking about your leadership style, and Rocket Men, really fun story.

当你思考自己的领导风格时，这本书值得一读，而《火箭人》是一个非常有趣的故事。

I love a good story about ambition and achieving awesome things.

我喜欢关于雄心壮志和实现伟大成就的好故事。

Lenny: What's a favorite other podcast, other than the one you're currently on?

Lenny：除了你现在正在收听的播客之外，你最喜欢的其他播客是什么？

Lauryn Isford: I like Fifth & Mission which is a local San Francisco podcast on local politics.

Lauryn Isford：我喜欢 Fifth & Mission，这是一个关于当地政治的旧金山本地播客。

Lenny: Favorite recent movie or TV show that you have watched that you've really enjoyed?

莱尼：您最近看过并且非常喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Lauryn Isford: I really like the White Lotus Season 2.

Lauryn Isford：我真的很喜欢《白莲花》第二季。

White Lotus was very fun to watch.

《白莲花》非常值得一看。

I also, on the movie front, I'm in a habit of watching Best Picture nominees every year and last year there were a couple movies I really enjoyed, one of them was Belfast.

在电影方面，我也有每年观看最佳影片提名影片的习惯，去年有几部电影我非常喜欢，其中之一是《贝尔法斯特》。

Lenny: Oh man, that was an intense movie.

莱尼：天哪，那是一部激烈的电影。

I watched that recently.

我最近看了那个。

And also, if we should turn this into a drinking game, every time someone mentions White Lotus, we drink.

而且，如果我们把这变成一个喝酒游戏，每次有人提到白莲花，我们就喝酒。

It's an amazing show, but it's definitely comes up often.

这是一个很棒的节目，但它肯定经常出现。

So interesting.

太有趣了。

Lenny: It deserves to come up often.

莱尼：它值得经常出现。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Lenny: It's great, but that'd be okay.

莱尼： 太好了，不过没关系。

We're going to do a drinking game from now on and I'll have a shot here.

从现在开始我们要玩一个喝酒游戏，我也来玩一玩。

Love White Lotus.

喜欢白莲花。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask people?

您最喜欢问别人的面试问题？

Lauryn Isford: Tell me about a time that you delivered something that was impactful.

Lauryn Isford：请告诉我一次您发表过具有影响力的作品的经历。

Lenny: What do you look for in an answer when you ask that question?

莱尼：当你问这个问题时，你希望得到什么答案？

What's your kind of a good sign and what's maybe a bad sign?

什么是好兆头，什么是坏兆头？

Lauryn Isford: I'm looking for someone to help me understand how they define impact and what it means to them.

Lauryn Isford：我正在寻找有人帮助我了解他们如何定义影响力以及影响力对他们意味着什么。

I think a good answer for growth practitioner is intrinsic motivation about having an impact on the business.

我认为对于成长实践者来说，一个好的答案是对业务产生影响的内在动机。

Lenny: Hear, hear.

莱尼：听着，听着。

What are five SaaS products that you use day to day, and you can't say Airtable?

您日常使用的 SaaS 产品有哪五种，其中不能说 Airtable？

Lauryn Isford: Figma, Miro, Slack, Gmail, and my fifth one, I need to think about it.

Lauryn Isford：Figma、Miro、Slack、Gmail，还有我的第五个，我需要考虑一下。

Lenny: It's because I cut out Airtable.

Lenny：那是因为我删掉了 Airtable。

I got you.

我接到你了。

Lauryn Isford: I know, I always say Airtable.

Lauryn Isford：我知道，我总是说 Airtable。

Airtable's definitely number five.

Airtable 绝对排名第五。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Probably number one.

可能是第一名。

Okay, final question.

好的，最后一个问题。

Speaking of Airtable, what's the coolest use of Airtable you've seen?

说到 Airtable，您见过的 Airtable 最酷的用途是什么？

Lauryn Isford: There was a great embedded view, which is the internal term for when you put Airtable on your website in an embedded way so people can check out cool stuff, related to finding COVID vaccine when they came out, which was really awesome.

Lauryn Isford：有一个很棒的嵌入式视图，这是当你以嵌入式方式将 Airtable 放在网站上时的内部术语，这样人们就可以查看很酷的东西，与新冠疫苗问世时相关的内容，这真的很棒。

I also appreciated that a similar use of Airtable has become quite popular this year in support of facilitating folks who've been laid off to help them find new opportunities.

我还赞赏 Airtable 的类似用途今年变得非常流行，以支持为被解雇的人提供便利，帮助他们找到新的机会。

Lenny: Lauryn, this was amazing.

莱尼：劳伦，这太棒了。

I learned a ton.

我学到了很多。

We got through everything I was hoping to get through which I did not expect.

我们经历了我希望经历但我没有预料到的一切。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more and to reach out to you, and then two, how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想接触并了解更多信息并联系您，可以在哪里找到您，然后第二个问题，听众如何对您有用？

Lauryn Isford: You all can find me on Twitter.

Lauryn Isford：你们都可以在 Twitter 上找到我。

I'm @laurynisford.

我是@laurynisford。

I love hearing about how folks with all different kinds of cool products are thinking about growth.

我喜欢听到拥有各种炫酷产品的人们如何思考增长。

In general, I find all of us are better at growing businesses when we study the awesome wins and learnings of others.

总的来说，我发现当我们研究他人的辉煌胜利和经验教训时，我们所有人都能够更好地发展业务。

So, please, my DMs are open.

所以，拜托，我的私信是开放的。

Send me cool things you're working on.

将您正在做的很酷的事情发送给我。

I'd love to learn about it.

我很想了解一下。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Lauryn, thank you.

劳伦，谢谢你。

Let's go drive some growth.

让我们去推动一些增长吧。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。