Lessons from one of the world’s top executive recruiters | Lauren Ipsen (Daversa Partners, GC)

Lauren Ipsen: Regardless of whether or not you're hiring, you should always be keeping a pulse on the market.

Lauren Ipsen：无论您是否在招聘，您都应该始终关注市场脉搏。

That is the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

And I think that should be the case for both candidates and folks that are hiring.

我认为对于候选人和正在招聘的人来说都应该如此。

Like, you never want to put yourself in a position where you have no idea what good looks like, whether that's from a company standpoint or from a candidate standpoint.

就像，你永远不想让自己处于一个不知道什么是好的境地，无论是从公司的角度还是从候选人的角度来看。

So, both parties should always be having a good understanding of which companies are thriving, which individuals are building great things and are well known commodities in their organizations and get great references.

因此，双方都应该始终充分了解哪些公司正在蓬勃发展，哪些个人正在创造伟大的事物，哪些人在组织中是众所周知的商品，并获得了很好的参考。

Lauren Ipsen: Oftentimes, I encourage founders to simply chat with what good looks like and get a really good sense of what benchmark candidate profiles could be, and who knows where that person will be in a year or what have you, but staying really, really close to really great people and using them from an advising capacity or getting them ingrained in some type of involvement in the product prior to actually having that specific need, I think, is really important.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我经常鼓励创始人简单地与优秀的人交谈，并真正了解基准候选人的资料可能是什么，谁知道这个人一年后会在哪里，或者你有什么，但我认为，与真正优秀的人保持真正非常接近，并以建议的身份使用他们，或者在真正有特定需求之前让他们根深蒂固地参与某种类型的产品，这是非常重要的。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today my guest is Lauren Ipsen.

今天我的嘉宾是劳伦·伊普森。

Lenny: One of the most important skills for founders and senior product leaders to develop is the ability to hire great people.

Lenny：创始人和高级产品领导者需要培养的最重要的技能之一是聘请优秀人才的能力。

You won't be able to build the best company or the best product if you can't hire the best people.

如果你不能聘请最好的人才，你就无法建立最好的公司或最好的产品。

And Lauren is one of the most experienced and successful people in the world when it comes to hiring product leaders.

在招聘产品领导者方面，劳伦是世界上最有经验、最成功的人之一。

She's placed over 80 senior product leaders across tech companies and has worked with some of the biggest companies out there.

她在科技公司中任命了 80 多名高级产品负责人，并与一些最大的公司合作过。

When I asked a bunch of really smart product leaders who their favorite product recruiter was, Lauren's name came up a ton.

当我问一群非常聪明的产品领导者他们最喜欢的产品招聘人员是谁时，劳伦的名字出现了很多。

Lenny: In our conversation, we get super tactical about what founders need to do to find the best product talent, what product managers should be doing during their career to give themselves the most opportunity, and we also touch on what recruiters themselves often get wrong when trying to attract great talent.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们对创始人需要做什么才能找到最好的产品人才、产品经理在职业生涯中应该做什么才能给自己最大的机会进行了超级战术，我们还谈到了招聘人员在吸引优秀人才时经常犯的错误。

This episode is rich with actionable advice for basically everyone, and I am really excited to bring it to you.

这一集为基本上每个人提供了丰富的可行建议，我很高兴能将其带给您。

With that, I bring you Lauren Ipsen.

接下来，我为您带来劳伦·伊普森。

Lenny: Who has an opinion on internal tools?

Lenny：谁对内部工具有意见？

Internal tools are something you probably don't think about until you have to, or it probably didn't even occur to you to think about them, but if you work at a big company, you probably have a bunch of one-off custom apps or dashboards that are laser focused on just one job to be done for one specific team or just one role, and they're always such a huge pain to build and maintain.

内部工具是您可能直到必要时才考虑的东西，或者您可能根本没有想到要考虑它们，但如果您在一家大公司工作，您可能有一堆一次性的自定义应用程序或仪表板，它们只专注于为一个特定团队或一个角​​色完成的一项工作，并且构建和维护它们总是非常痛苦。

And that's why I'm such a big fan of Retool, and why I think Retool is so popular.

这就是为什么我是 Retool 的忠实粉丝，也是我认为 Retool 如此受欢迎的原因。

Retool allows teams as small as just one person to build a suite of custom internal apps in a fraction of the time that you think it takes.

Retool 允许小至只有一个人的团队在您认为所需时间的一小部分内构建一套自定义内部应用程序。

The productivity gains of custom apps is now within reach, not just for large enterprises, but for small teams as well.

定制应用程序的生产力提升现在触手可及，不仅对于大型企业，对于小型团队也是如此。

And as you scale your company, Retool scales with you.

当您扩展公司规模时，Retool 也会随之扩展。

Lenny: Snowflake saves about 26 hours a week of manual spreadsheet work with custom internal apps built on Retool.

Lenny：Snowflake 使用基于 Retool 构建的自定义内部应用程序，每周可以节省大约 26 个小时的手动电子表格工作时间。

Amazon uses Retool to handle GDPR requests.

Amazon 使用 Retool 来处理 GDPR 请求。

Thousands of teams at companies like Coinbase, DoorDash, and NBC collaborate around custom-built Retool apps to operate with greater efficiency.

Coinbase、DoorDash 和 NBC 等公司的数千个团队围绕定制的 Retool 应用程序进行协作，以提高运营效率。

Lenny: Maybe you've thought about using Retool before but just haven't, and I'm here to tell you that now teams of up to five can build unlimited Retool apps for free.

Lenny：也许您以前考虑过使用 Retool，但只是没有，我在这里告诉您，现在最多 5 人的团队可以免费构建无限的 Retool 应用程序。

Get started today at retool.com/lenny.

今天就开始访问 retool.com/lenny。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro.

莱尼：今天的节目是米罗为您带来的。

Creating a product, especially one that your users can't live without, is damn hard, but it's made easier by working closely with your colleagues to capture ideas, get feedback, and being able to iterate quickly.

创建一款产品，尤其是用户离不开的产品，是非常困难的，但是通过与同事密切合作来捕捉想法、获得反馈并能够快速迭代，它会变得更容易。

That's where Miro comes in.

这就是米罗登场的地方。

Miro is an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您这样的团队而设计。

Lenny: I actually used Miro to come up with a plan for this very ad.

莱尼：实际上，我使用米罗为这则广告制定了计划。

With Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming sticky notes, comments, live reactions, voting tools, even a timer to keep your team on track.

借助 Miro，您可以通过集思广益的便利贴、评论、实时反应、投票工具，甚至计时器来制定您的产品策略，以确保您的团队步入正轨。

You can also bring your whole distributed team together around wire frames where anyone can draw their own ideas with the pen tool or put their own images or mock-ups right into the Miro board.

您还可以将整个分布式团队围绕线框聚集在一起，任何人都可以使用钢笔工具绘制自己的想法，或者将自己的图像或模型直接放入 Miro 板上。

And with one of Miro's ready made templates, you can go from discovering research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks.

借助 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现研究到产品路线图，再到客户旅程流程，再到最终的模拟。

Lenny: Want to see how I use Miro?

莱尼：想看看我如何使用米罗吗？

Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny to see my most popular podcast episodes, my favorite Miro templates.

前往 miro.com/lenny 上的我的 Miro 板，查看我最受欢迎的播客剧集、我最喜欢的 Miro 模板。

You can also leave feedback on this podcast episode and more.

您还可以留下对此播客剧集等的反馈。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: Lauren, thank you for being here.

莱尼：劳伦，谢谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lauren Ipsen: Thanks so much.

劳伦·伊普森：非常感谢。

It's great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I've been meeting to do an episode on product hiring and recruiting product people for a while, and when I asked a bunch of smart friends who should I have on to talk about this stuff, your name came up a bunch, and so I'm really happy that we're finally doing this.

Lenny：有一段时间我一直在开会做一期关于产品招聘和招聘产品人员的节目，当我问一群聪明的朋友我应该和谁来谈论这些东西时，你的名字出现了很多，所以我很高兴我们终于这样做了。

Lauren Ipsen: Me too.

劳伦·伊普森：我也是。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I'm grateful that you asked.

我很感激你的询问。

Lenny: So, to help listeners get a sense of just your background and kind of the journey you've been on to get to where you are now, can you just spend maybe just a minute kind of talking through the wonderful things you've done in your career and what you're doing now?

莱尼：那么，为了帮助听众了解您的背景以及您到达现在的位置所经历的旅程，您能否花一分钟的时间来谈谈您在职业生涯中所做过的精彩事情以及您现在正在做的事情？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, absolutely.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，绝对是。

So I started my career in broadcast.

于是我开始了我的广播职业生涯。

I originally thought that I wanted to be on the news and quickly realized I didn't necessarily want to be the face of sadness.

我原本以为我想成为新闻人物，但很快意识到我不一定想成为悲伤的面孔。

There's a ton of that happening in the world.

世界上发生了很多这样的事情。

Lauren Ipsen: So, made a pivot pretty early on and thought, where could I use the communication skills that I've been working so hard on and do something that's impactful in a big way, but maybe just with a little bit of a different angle?

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以，我很早就做出了转变，我想，我可以在哪里使用我一直在努力培养的沟通技巧，做一些有很大影响力的事情，但也许只是从不同的角度来做一些事情？

And stumbled across executive search.

并偶然发现了高管搜索。

Lauren Ipsen: Exec search is not really something that people major in college by any means or think they're going to end up doing.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：高管搜索并不是人们在大学主修的事情，也不是人们认为他们最终会做的事情。

So it was something I found fascinating.

所以这是我觉得很有趣的事情。

I had applied to all of these different companies like Twitter and Snap and Pinterest, hadn't heard back from any of them, was a name in the resumes, and thought, well, how cool would it be if I could work with all of them and have an opportunity to play a part from a different lens?

我向 Twitter、Snap 和 Pinterest 等所有这些不同的公司提出了申请，但没有收到任何回复，只是简历中的一个名字，我想，好吧，如果我能与他们所有人一起工作，并有机会从不同的角度发挥作用，那该有多酷？

Lauren Ipsen: So, got into exec search, was really focused early on on consumer mobile build outs.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以，进入高管搜索领域，很早就专注于消费者移动构建。

Was doing a lot of work with Twitter and Reddit and TaskRabbit and Nextdoor, Postmates, you name it, and that was probably 85% of the work I was doing.

我在 Twitter、Reddit、TaskRabbit、Nextdoor、Postmates 等方面做了很多工作，这可能占了我所做工作的 85%。

And then as, on the agency side, 15% was obscure, autonomous helicopters selling into the Department of Defense and then retail and robotics, and it was all very fascinating, but for me, who has wicked bad ADD, it was amazing to be able to be so stimulated by so many different industries and feel like I couldn't really master this.

然后，在机构方面，15% 是默默无闻的，自动直升机销往国防部，然后是零售和机器人技术，这一切都非常令人着迷，但对于我来说，我这个注意力缺陷障碍很严重的人，能够受到如此多不同行业的刺激，感觉自己无法真正掌握这一点，真是太神奇了。

Lauren Ipsen: So, long story short, had an awesome career at Daversa Partners, which is a boutique executive search firm, and thought I was going to be there potentially forever.

劳伦·伊普森：长话短说，我在 Daversa Partners（一家精品猎头公司）度过了一段很棒的职业生涯，我认为我可能会永远在那里。

Was tapped by a awesome individual, Abe Shafi, who was founding a company.

被一个了不起的人选中，Abe Shafi，他正在创办一家公司。

I had been doing a lot of work for them.

我一直在为他们做很多工作。

They were a client of mine at the time.

他们当时是我的客户。

Placed a couple great hires and they said, "We're either going to kick off a head of talent search with you or you can come over and join us." So I was the first recruiting hire over there, built out the talent function in its entirety.

招聘了几位优秀的员工，他们说：“我们要么和你一起开始人才搜寻工作，要么你可以过来加入我们。”所以我是那里第一个招聘人员，建立了完整的人才职能。

Lauren Ipsen: I definitely think there was a part of me that I loved the operating experience, learned a ton, worked side by side some amazing people, but was really missing working with founders, and lots of them, and keeping a pulse on the market.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我确实认为我内心有一部分喜欢这种运营经验，学到了很多东西，与一些了不起的人并肩工作，但我真的很怀念与创始人以及很多人一起工作，并保持对市场的脉搏。

So General Catalyst tapped me most recently, and been working here for the past couple months, and it's been great thus far, and I'm specializing in our consumer and crypto investments.

General Catalyst 最近聘请了我，过去几个月我一直在这里工作，到目前为止一切都很棒，我专注于我们的消费者和加密货币投资。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

The fact that you're at GC now makes me think about another recruiter that I know who's awesome, Austin Brizendine, and it's interesting that a lot of the best recruiters seem to be heading to VC funds, and I'm curious why that is happening.

你现在在 GC 的事实让我想起了另一位我认识的很棒的招聘人员 Austin Brizendine，有趣的是，许多最好的招聘人员似乎都转向了风险投资基金，我很好奇为什么会发生这种情况。

Is it like a comp thing?

这就像一个比较的东西吗？

Is it other things that are pulling everyone away into funds?

是不是还有其他因素让大家纷纷转向基金？

Lauren Ipsen: It's a great question.

劳伦·伊普森：这是一个很好的问题。

It's definitely not a comp thing.

这绝对不是一个比较的事情。

I'll say that.

我会这么说。

I think it could be a stability of life thing.

我认为这可能是生活稳定的事情。

Search is incredibly volatile, and you have to hustle so hard, and as soon as you have three wins, you've got four more things to execute on.

搜索是非常不稳定的，你必须非常努力，一旦你取得了三场胜利，你就还有四件事要执行。

And so, there's aspects of it that can be tough, especially in a market like right now where you really do have to chase business and you can't be selective about what you take on, so you could be pitching things that maybe you don't necessarily believe in in its entirety or what have you.

因此，它的某些方面可能会很困难，尤其是在像现在这样的市场中，你确实必须追逐业务，而且你不能对你所承担的事情做出选择，所以你可能会推销一些你不一定完全相信的东西或你拥有的东西。

So, I think that's one component.

所以，我认为这是一个组成部分。

Lauren Ipsen: In house is obviously difficult right now as well for talent leaders.

劳伦·伊普森：对于人才领导者来说，现在在公司内部显然也很困难。

It's really scary to take a bet on one single company right now and know what it's going to look like six months from now.

现在就押注于一家公司并知道六个月后会是什么样子，这真的很可怕。

And so I think those things combined might be the reason for an influx in folks leaning more towards venture, and I think it's just timeliness.

因此，我认为这些因素结合起来可能是人们更倾向于冒险的原因，而且我认为这只是及时性。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

The downside is it's hard for people to find awesome recruiters because once you're in a fund, you're just going to help those startups.

缺点是人们很难找到优秀的招聘人员，因为一旦你加入了基金，你就只能帮助那些初创公司。

And so we're going to talk later about just how do people find awesome recruiters, what do you look for?

因此，我们稍后将讨论人们如何找到优秀的招聘人员，您在寻找什么？

But there's roughly three things I want to spend our time chatting through today.

但今天我想花时间讨论大约三件事。

One is for founders and hiring managers, just how to find the best talent and what they could do to be successful finding the best talent.

一是针对创始人和招聘经理，介绍如何找到最优秀的人才，以及他们可以采取哪些措施才能成功找到最优秀的人才。

Two is for product leaders and PMs, how to give themselves the most opportunity from the flip side.

二是对于产品负责人和产品经理来说，如何从另一方面给自己最大的机会。

And then third is just for recruiters, what do they often do wrong?

第三是招聘人员，他们经常做错什么？

How do they miss out on the best product talent?

他们怎么会错过最好的产品人才呢？

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

So on the hiring front, just diving in, say you are a founder, you're someone really early at a company, and maybe you've got a couple PMs and you're starting to think about we need to hire a really senior product leader or first senior product leader.

因此，在招聘方面，直接说你是一位创始人，你是一家公司的早期员工，也许你有几位产品经理，你开始考虑我们需要聘请一位真正的高级产品领导者或第一位高级产品领导者。

Lenny: What do you find is often the biggest mistake that founders make when they're trying to hire their first senior product leader?

Lenny：您认为创始人在尝试聘请第一位高级产品负责人时犯的最大错误是什么？

Lauren Ipsen: I think especially for founders that haven't hired for this caliber of talent in the past, it's really easy to be distracted by shiny objects and look at huge names.

劳伦·伊普森：我认为，特别是对于过去没有聘请过这种人才的创始人来说，很容易被闪亮的物体和大牌分散注意力。

You want to find the CPOs of Google and YouTube or what have you because that seems like it would be such an incredible opportunity for brand recognition.

你想找到 Google 和 YouTube 等公司的 CPO，因为这似乎是一个获得品牌认可的绝佳机会。

And to an extent, it is.

在某种程度上，确实如此。

But the fact of the matter is, oftentimes those individuals are pretty far from the work and have a great team of executors that they've put into place that are actually the ones that are in the weeds.

但事实是，这些人通常距离工作很远，并且拥有一支优秀的执行者团队，而他们实际上是在杂草中的人。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I think that's the biggest mistake I see people make, especially on the hiring front where they have limited resources, and maybe they're an early stage company and trying so hard to bring in big names is not always the best way to go about it because the fact of the matter is they need to go then hire a team.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为这是我看到人们犯的最大错误，特别是在招聘方面，他们的资源有限，也许他们是一家早期公司，如此努力地引进大牌并不总是最好的方法，因为事实是他们需要去雇佣一个团队。

So, I think looking for someone that's a little closer to the work, maybe someone that can step up into that type of role and do so in a way where some days they might actually be operating like a PM and then other days they might be able to build from a leadership perspective, that's more of the DNA that people should be targeting.

所以，我认为寻找一个更接近工作的人，也许是一个能够胜任此类角色的人，并且有时他们可能实际上像产品经理一样运作，而其他时候他们可能能够从领导的角度来构建，这更多是人们应该瞄准的 DNA。

Lenny: Do you think the source of the issue with that going wrong, that they no longer can do that work as well because they've been shielded away from the tactical day to day?

莱尼：你认为问题的根源是他们不再能够完成这项工作，因为他们每天都被屏蔽在战术之外吗？

Or is it that they're not as hungry as they used to be and they're just like, "I already, I'm a YouTube 10 year super success, I don't need to prove myself anymore," and they're just not as hungry, or something else?

或者是他们不再像以前那样饥饿，他们只是想，“我已经是 YouTube 10 年来的超级成功了，我不需要再证明自己了”，他们只是不再那么饥饿了，还是其他原因？

Lauren Ipsen: I mean, I'm not going to sit here and say that all senior leaders aren't hungry.

劳伦·伊普森：我的意思是，我不会坐在这里说所有高级领导人都不饿。

I think that there's some folks that really lean into the work in a different way and miss that, and often go to startups because they crave building.

我认为有些人确实以不同的方式投入到工作中，但却错过了这一点，并且经常去初创公司，因为他们渴望建设。

Lauren Ipsen: So it's not necessarily that, but I do tend to lean towards folks that have a chip on their shoulder or have something to prove and want to build a name for themselves.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以不一定是这样，但我确实倾向于那些有怨气或有东西要证明并想为自己建立名声的人。

All of that to say, there's a reason that a lot of those people got to where they are, and some of the best talent are some of the senior folks, but just maybe not necessarily the best talent for where this company is today.

综上所述，很多人能达到现在的水平是有原因的，其中一些最优秀的人才是一些资深人士，但也许不一定是公司今天所处的最佳人才。

Right?

正确的？

It could be great for 10 years down the road, but the past five years of that individual's career could have been far more focused on camaraderie, team building, operational components, performance reviews, and then aspects of product vision, which just might not be the innovative AB testing type of profile that you typically look for in these pre-IPO companies.

未来 10 年可能会很棒，但个人职业生涯的过去 5 年可能会更多地关注友情、团队建设、运营组件、绩效评估以及产品愿景的各个方面，这可能不是您通常在这些 IPO 前公司中寻找的创新 AB 测试类型的资料。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

I imagine there are stories that you can share about people you've placed like that, that have not worked out.

我想你可以分享一些关于你这样安排的人的故事，但这些故事还没有成功。

If you can share one, that'd be awesome.

如果你能分享一个，那就太棒了。

But maybe a side question is the general advice, just don't assume someone that's been successful at a big company with a fancy background is going to be great.

但也许一个附带问题是一般性的建议，只是不要认为在一家大公司取得成功、拥有出色背景的人会很出色。

Sometimes they work out, but not always, is that kind of the takeaway?

有时它们会起作用，但并非总是如此，这就是外卖吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

I would say the general advice is who is going to be best for this specific role at this specific time, not necessarily who is the best talent in the world or in the market.

我想说的是，一般建议是谁在这个特定时间最适合这个特定角色，而不一定是世界上或市场上最好的人才。

Those are two very, very different questions to ask.

这是两个非常非常不同的问题。

And I think early on in my recruiting career, I was often just trying to recruit these whales of executives to try and prove myself and say, "Oh, I got this person to entertain this opportunity, how sick is that?" But naturally, that's not necessarily the person that actually can move the needle.

我认为在我的招聘生涯早期，我经常只是想招募这些高管来证明自己，然后说：“哦，我让这个人接受这个机会，这有多病态？”但自然地，那不一定是真正能起到推动作用的人。

And so you need to think very specifically.

所以你需要非常具体地思考。

Just because this is the best talent, that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best talent for this role today.

仅仅因为这是最好的人才，并不一定意味着他们是当今这个职位的最佳人才。

Lenny: So to double down on that, say you are hiring and you know you're going to start hiring a senior product leader, what is it that you suggest founders nail down and iron out when they're kicking off the hiring process, either on their own or with a recruiter?

莱尼：因此，要加倍努力，假设你正在招聘，并且你知道你将开始招聘一名高级产品负责人，那么你建议创始人在开始招聘流程时（无论是自己还是与招聘人员一起）确定并解决什么问题？

Like, in the job description, what else do they have to get right to find the right person?

比如，在职位描述中，他们还需要做些什么才能找到合适的人选？

Lauren Ipsen: It's a number of things, like product leaders can come in a lot of different flavors, and so I think it's trying to determine where this person should major and minor, where they should spike.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：有很多事情，比如产品领导者可以有很多不同的风格，所以我认为它试图确定这个人应该主要和次要的地方，他们应该在哪里突出。

Is this someone that's going to really lean into the design efforts?

这是一个真正愿意投入设计工作的人吗？

Is it someone that actually kind of needs to just operate like a very senior PM and continue to build out a team?

这个人实际上需要像非常高级的产品经理一样运作并继续建立团队吗？

Is this someone that really should be focused on product vision for the long haul?

这个人真的应该长期关注产品愿景吗？

And then thinking more holistically about how to build the rest of the team.

然后更全面地思考如何建设团队的其他成员。

Lauren Ipsen: There's so many different ways in which you can hire for a product leader.

Lauren Ipsen：招聘产品负责人的方式有很多种。

So I think it's trying to work a little bit backwards and think about, what is the actual outcome that we are trying to solve for with this hire?

所以我认为它试图稍微倒退一下，思考一下，我们试图通过这次招聘解决的实际结果是什么？

Or are we just hiring a head of product because we feel like we need to hire a head of product?

或者我们只是因为觉得需要聘请产品主管而聘请产品主管？

That's so often what I see is the board's telling me we need to hire a head of product and I don't necessarily think that we do, or I'm not exactly sure what we need in this role.

我经常看到董事会告诉我我们需要聘请一名产品主管，但我不一定认为我们这样做，或者我不太确定我们在这个职位上需要什么。

And so whenever you're starting a search in that regard, it's kind of doomed from inception, so you need to get incredibly granular on the front end around, what is this person going to be coming in to do?

因此，每当你开始在这方面进行搜索时，它从一开始就注定是注定的，所以你需要对前端进行非常细致的了解，这个人会进来做什么？

What's their mandate?

他们的任务是什么？

And if we think about someone that's just absolutely hitting it out of the park and crushing it, what does that look like?

如果我们想象一个人绝对能把它击出公园并粉碎它，那会是什么样子？

So I think just trying to be really specific on the front end.

所以我认为只是尝试在前端方面做到真正具体。

Lenny: I love that last piece, just what does success really look like for this person?

莱尼：我喜欢最后一段，对于这个人来说，成功到底是什么样的？

On the first piece, that's exactly the same advice I give founders when they're looking for a PM is like, what do you concretely need them to do day to day?

在第一篇文章中，这与我在创始人寻找产品经理时给他们的建议完全相同，比如，你具体需要他们每天做什么？

Not like, "We need someone to help us with product." And that often helps illuminate, okay, I see.

不像“我们需要有人帮助我们开发产品”。这通常有助于阐明，好吧，我明白了。

We need someone to help us ship more consistently.

我们需要有人帮助我们更一致地发货。

We need someone to help us hire engineers.

我们需要有人帮助我们聘请工程师。

Yeah, just make a list.

是的，列个清单就可以了。

What are they going to do in the first month or two or three?

他们在第一个月、第二个月或第三个月要做什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，是的，绝对如此。

I think those are the most important things.

我认为这些是最重要的事情。

Like the 90 day plan is something that's overused but so necessary, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

就像 90 天计划是被过度使用但又非常必要的东西，而这只是冰山一角。

So that component and then, okay, a year from now, what should this person be doing?

那么，好吧，一年后，这个人应该做什么？

Two years from now?

两年后？

Do we want them to grow up into a CPO role?

我们是否希望他们成长为 CPO 角色？

Do we think about that in a different way?

我们是否以不同的方式思考这个问题？

How are we thinking about the product direction today, 12 months from now, 18 months from now, through IPO?

今天、12 个月后、18 个月后，通过 IPO，我们如何思考产品方向？

I think it's really difficult to think about things that way, and so often you're thinking about the task in front of you and just trying to iterate quickly, but that is the type of thought process that needs to be happening from the CEOs and founders.

我认为以这种方式思考事情真的很困难，而且你经常会思考摆在你面前的任务并试图快速迭代，但这正是首席执行官和创始人需要进行的思维过程。

Lenny: Are there archetypes of PMs, if you just bucket like here's the three maybe most common types of product leaders that founders hire, because there's an infinite list of skills and things they could do, but just to make it even simpler, like here's probably one of these three you're looking for.

Lenny：是否存在 PM 的原型，如果你只是把创始人雇用的三种可能是最常见的产品领导者类型分类一下，因为他们可以做的技能和事情有无数种，但只是为了让它变得更简单，就像这可能是你正在寻找的这三种类型之一。

Do you have something like that in your head?

你的脑子里有类似的东西吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, there's platform product leaders or folks that are kind of more indexed on the infrastructure components.

Lauren Ipsen：是的，有些平台产品领导者或人员对基础设施组件有更多的索引。

There's folks that are typically focused on core product, or consumer product if it's on the consumer side of things.

有些人通常专注于核心产品，或者消费者产品（如果它位于消费者方面）。

And then you'll have folks that are really indexed and that can include UX individuals, design folks.

然后你将拥有真正被索引的人员，其中可以包括用户体验人员、设计人员。

And then there's also typically specialists, so individuals that are really hyper-focused on growth or monetization or what have you.

然后还有典型的专家，即真正高度关注增长或货币化或其他什么的人。

Those are the three buckets that I would say I see most often.

这是我最常看到的三个桶。

Lenny: Do you feel like founders sometimes pick one of the wrong buckets and that's a common mistake, or is it generally it's the wrong bucket but then maybe it's not the right spikes of skills within that bucket?

Lenny：你是否觉得创始人有时会选择一个错误的桶，这是一个常见的错误，或者通常是错误的桶，但也许不是该桶内正确的技能峰值？

Lauren Ipsen: Well, it's kind of twofold.

劳伦·伊普森：嗯，这是双重的。

I think sometimes people just bring in a head of product to do everything, so that's probably not the best way to go about things.

我认为有时人们只是让产品负责人来做所有事情，所以这可能不是最好的处理方式。

I think that ends up being a unicorn, which you hear often in the search world, and it becomes really difficult to hone in on what good looks like.

我认为这最终会成为独角兽，这是你在搜索世界中经常听到的，并且很难磨练出什么是好的。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I think again, it just comes back to having a clear org chart on the front end and determining, are we hiring someone specifically to build out our walled garden ads approach, or are we hiring someone to run product marketing, or are we hiring someone to help from a product perspective to build a better core user experience?

劳伦·伊普森：所以我再次思考，这只是回到在前端有一个清晰的组织结构图，并确定我们是否专门雇用某人来构建我们的围墙花园广告方法，或者我们是否雇用某人来进行产品营销，或者我们是否雇用某人从产品角度来帮助建立更好的核心用户体验？

Those are all very, very, very different roles, and if you bring in one person to try and do it all, the facts of the matter is, they're going to have to bring in some key lieutenants to help them, so is that something you want to do or are you more focused on bringing in someone imminently to help on the ad side of things, and then we can find that head of product to help them out down the road?

这些都是非常、非常、非常不同的角色，如果你引入一个人来尝试完成这一切，事实是，他们将不得不引入一些关键的副手来帮助他们，所以这是你想做的事情，还是你更专注于立即引入某人来帮助广告方面的事情，然后我们可以找到产品负责人来帮助他们解决问题？

Lauren Ipsen: That's kind of the way in which I would architect it and think about it, is what's most imminent, and what do you actually need to hire for today, as opposed to just hiring for the sake of hiring and bringing in that leader.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：这就是我构建和思考它的方式，是最迫在眉睫的事情，以及你今天实际上需要招聘什么，而不是仅仅为了招聘和引进领导者而招聘。

Lenny: And part of the discussion there is maybe they grow up into this head of product long term, maybe not.

莱尼：讨论的一部分是，从长远来看，他们可能会成长为产品主管，也许不会。

Maybe we just need someone to ship the ads platform, right?

也许我们只需要有人来发布广告平台，对吗？

Lenny: You mentioned this title of head of product.

Lenny：您提到了产品主管这个头衔。

There's also VP of product, CPO.

还有产品副总裁、CPO。

There's all these titles and I feel like people sometimes use them interchangeably, don't know which one to use when they're putting out a job description.

有所有这些头衔，我觉得人们有时会互换使用它们，在发布职位描述时不知道该使用哪个。

Do you have any kind of heuristic rule of thumb of just, here's how to think about when to use each of these titles?

您是否有任何启发式的经验法则，例如如何考虑何时使用这些标题？

Or is it not even a big deal for, say, a founder, hiring the first senior product leader?

或者说，对于创始人来说，聘请第一位高级产品负责人根本不是什么大事？

Lauren Ipsen: It's a great question and it definitely leads to confusion across the board because I'll have candidates come to me and they'll say, "I'm only looking for a CPO role," when I'm working with a startup where, maybe on the venture side of things, we've actually advised that startup to not hire C-level executives at this point.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：这是一个很好的问题，它肯定会导致全面的混乱，因为我会让候选人来找我，他们会说，“我只是在寻找 CPO 职位”，当我与一家初创公司合作时，也许在风险投资方面，我们实际上建议该初创公司此时不要雇用 C 级高管。

And so that naturally could eliminate a candidate that could be amazing for the role.

因此，这自然会淘汰一位对这个职位来说非常出色的候选人。

Lauren Ipsen: Similarly, people could feel that way if it's a VP of product role, but that in their mind is the most senior product leader within the organization running everything from end to end who they intend to be the CPO down the road but are not in a position where they're ready to hire C-level execs.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：同样，如果是产品副总裁，人们也会有这样的感觉，但在他们心目中，他是组织内最高级的产品领导者，从头到尾负责一切事务，他们打算将来担任 CPO，但目前还没有准备好聘请 C 级高管。

So, it's tough, and it really depends on the organization and the way in which they're thinking about org charts and leveling.

所以，这很困难，而且它实际上取决于组织以及他们考虑组织结构图和级别的方式。

Lauren Ipsen: A lot of startups at this point are almost allergic to C titles or VP titles or are just more title agnostic than I've seen in the past, so you see a lot more of these head ofs, and that is sector leaders, up until probably C plus or D stage.

Lauren Ipsen：目前很多初创公司几乎对 C 级头衔或 VP 头衔过敏，或者只是比我过去看到的更加不可知论，所以你会看到更多这样的负责人，也就是行业领导者，直到可能达到 C+ 或 D 阶段。

And then you get to D and E, and you'll see more of the VP, director, CPO type.

然后你到了 D 和 E，你会看到更多的 VP、总监、CPO 类型。

And I think that is the way that people should be thinking about it is, if I'm joining a company very, very early days and it's called head of engineering, that is intended to be the most senior engineering leader within the organization.

我认为这就是人们应该考虑的方式，如果我很早就加入一家公司，并且它被称为工程主管，那么它的目的就是成为组织内最高级的工程领导者。

Lauren Ipsen: The fact of the matter though is there's good reason sometimes why they're not throwing out that C title, and could this person be layered down the road?

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：事实上，有时他们有充分的理由不放弃 C 头衔，这个人可以在未来的道路上分层吗？

Potentially, because maybe the talent they need right now is different than, just as we had spoken to earlier, is different than the talent that they might need from a massive CPO in two and a half years.

潜在的，因为也许他们现在需要的人才与我们之前谈到的不同，与他们在两年半后可能需要的大型 CPO 的人才不同。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I think that rubs people the wrong way because they want a bit of a promise that things are going to, if they join at this stage, that they'll be in it for the long haul and be that chief product officer that takes a company through an IPO.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为这会惹恼人们，因为他们希望得到一点承诺，如果他们在这个阶段加入，他们将长期参与其中，并成为带领公司完成首次公开募股的首席产品官。

But companies are so dynamic and things change so quickly.

但公司是如此充满活力，事情变化得如此之快。

Lauren Ipsen: So, I guess a long-winded way of me saying there's different breadth and depth to each role, but I think for the most part, unless it's a very siloed company with multiple different VPs, if you're coming into a company and they say this is the head of product, the VP of product, or the CPO, that all means the same thing dependent on the stage, for the most part.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以，我想我会用冗长的方式说每个角色都有不同的广度和深度，但我认为在大多数情况下，除非这是一家非常孤立的公司，拥有多个不同的副总裁，如果你进入一家公司，他们说这是产品主管、产品副总裁或首席产品官，那么在很大程度上，这一切都意味着同样的事情，取决于舞台。

Lenny: And the other takeaway there, which is awesome, is if you're early stage startup, probably just start with head of product.

莱尼：另一个很棒的要点是，如果你是早期初创公司，可能只是从产品负责人开始。

Keep it simple.

保持简单。

Lenny: Don't over promise.

莱尼：别过度承诺。

Everyone understands.

大家都明白。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

Because the last thing you want to do is have to demote someone.

因为你最不想做的就是降职某人。

But once you get to a place of having C-level executives, like that's not going to do any good, but maybe you start as a head of product, and then as the company continues to grow, you lean into the growth side of things more, and so you become that head of growth or an SVP of growth.

但是，一旦你达到了拥有 C 级高管的位置，那样不会有任何好处，但也许你从产品主管开始，然后随着公司的不断发展，你会更多地倾向于增长方面，因此你成为增长主管或增长高级副总裁。

Like things iterate and change, but you just never know and you can't predict the outcome of a company on the front end, so.

就像事情会迭代和变化一样，但你永远不知道，也无法预测公司前端的结果，所以。

Lenny: A lot of people listening to this probably aren't hiring senior product leaders right now, but plan to and will in the future, and so I wanted to ask, what should founders do when they know they will hire a head of product, say, in the next year, that could set them up for success down the road?

莱尼：很多听这个的人现在可能不会招聘高级产品负责人，而是计划并且将来会这样做，所以我想问，当创始人知道他们将聘请产品负责人（比如明年）时，他们应该做什么，这可以为他们今后的成功奠定基础？

What should they be doing ahead of time?

他们应该提前做什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Regardless of whether or not you're hiring, you should always be keeping a pulse on the market.

Lauren Ipsen：无论您是否在招聘，您都应该始终关注市场脉搏。

That is the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

And I think that should be the case for both candidates and folks that are hiring.

我认为对于候选人和正在招聘的人来说都应该如此。

Like, you never want to put yourself in a position where you have no idea what good looks like, whether that's from a company standpoint or from a candidate standpoint.

就像，你永远不想让自己处于一个不知道什么是好的境地，无论是从公司的角度还是从候选人的角度来看。

So, both parties should always be having a good understanding of which companies are thriving, which individuals are building great things and are well known commodities in their organizations and get great references.

因此，双方都应该始终充分了解哪些公司正在蓬勃发展，哪些个人正在创造伟大的事物，哪些人在组织中是众所周知的商品，并获得了很好的参考。

Lauren Ipsen: Oftentimes, I encourage founders to simply chat with what good looks like and get a really good sense of what benchmark candidate profiles could be, and who knows where that person will be in a year or what have you, but staying really, really close to really great people and using them from an advising capacity or getting them ingrained in some type of involvement in the product prior to actually having that specific need, I think, is really important.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我经常鼓励创始人简单地与优秀的人交谈，并真正了解基准候选人的资料可能是什么，谁知道这个人一年后会在哪里，或者你有什么，但我认为，与真正优秀的人保持真正非常接近，并以建议的身份使用他们，或者在真正有特定需求之前让他们根深蒂固地参与某种类型的产品，这是非常重要的。

Lenny: That sounds awesome and it makes sense.

莱尼：这听起来棒极了，而且很有道理。

How do you, as a founder, do some of that?

作为创始人，您如何做到这一点？

Do you just ask folks like, "Hey, who are some of the best product leaders you know?

你是否只是问人们，“嘿，你认识的最好的产品领导者是谁？

I just want to chat with them.

我只是想和他们聊天。

I'm not hiring, just want to kind of meet people who are awesome." Is that the behavior you suggest or is there something else you can do?

我不是在招聘，只是想认识一些很棒的人。”这是您建议的行为还是您可以采取其他措施？

Lauren Ipsen: That's a great way to go about it.

Lauren Ipsen：这是一个很好的方法。

And by simply saying, "No agenda, I'm not trying to hire you tomorrow, I just want to know great people." And to be totally honest, people feel flattered by that, typically.

只需说：“没有议程，我明天不想雇用你，我只是想认识优秀的人。”说实话，人们通常会对此感到受宠若惊。

Most of the time if you've been referred to someone and heard nothing but great things about them and you really don't have an agenda other than wanting to pick their brain, people are like, "Huh, well, this is different from the day to day.

大多数时候，如果你被推荐给某人，但只听到了关于他们的伟大事情，而你除了想听取他们的意见之外，真的没有其他议程，人们会说，“嗯，好吧，这与日常生活不同。

This is fulfilling," and people want to pour their knowledge, especially into companies that they believe in.

这是令人满足的，”人们希望将自己的知识倾注到他们所信任的公司中。

Lauren Ipsen: So, I think more often than not you'll find that, not just products leaders, but executives across the board are actually really inclined to do so and want to help out because it's a little bit different from the day to day monotony of their work life.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以，我认为你经常会发现，不仅是产品领导者，而且整个公司的高管实际上都非常愿意这样做，并希望提供帮助，因为这与他们日复一日单调的工作生活有点不同。

Lenny: So, the advice is keep track of companies who are killing it, who you might be able to kind of poach from in the future, and keep a list and keep warm contact with folks that are awesome.

莱尼：所以，建议是跟踪那些正在扼杀它的公司，你将来可能可以从哪些公司挖人，并保留一份名单并与那些很棒的人保持密切联系。

Lenny: It reminds me of a founder that ...

莱尼：这让我想起一位创始人......

or basically all founders who are really good at hiring and how far ahead they plant seeds and how they just play the long game with the best people they meet, and they just kind of keep the conversation going until they finally convince them to join a year or two later.

或者基本上所有真正擅长招聘的创始人，他们在多大程度上播种了种子，以及他们如何与他们遇到的最优秀的人进行长期游戏，他们只是让对话继续下去，直到他们最终说服他们在一两年后加入。

Do you find that the same thing?

你发现同样的事情吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, 1000000%.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，1000000%。

Yeah.

是的。

When I was on the executive recruiting side of things at Daversa, the VP of engineering candidate that we ultimately landed, it was a seven month game of courtship, and let's bring him in to help out from an advising capacity, let's ask him how he would think about structuring this organization, let's talk to him about the best talent that he would recommend that we're spending time with.

当我在 Daversa 担任高管招聘方面的职务时，我们最终找到了工程候选人副总裁，这是一场长达七个月的求爱游戏，让我们请他以顾问的身份提供帮助，让我们问他如何考虑构建这个组织，让我们和他谈谈他会推荐我们花时间与的最佳人才。

No question that's invasive, but more so just collaborative and exciting, and you'll find that the founder and that leader will build a different level of rapport and trust by not going through a formal interview process and having it feel transactional.

毫无疑问，这是侵入性的，但更重要的是协作和令人兴奋，你会发现创始人和领导者将通过不经历正式的面试过程并让其感觉交易来建立不同程度的融洽和信任。

And then with that, magic can happen and you can land incredible people.

然后，奇迹就会发生，你就能找到不可思议的人。

Lenny: This all sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time.

莱尼：这听起来像是大量的工作和大量的时间。

Do you have guidance on how long it should take to find, like for a early stage startup, say series A or B, to find someone awesome, and/or how much time founders should spend a week, just best practice, on hiring for someone like this?

您是否有关于需要多长时间才能找到优秀人才（例如早期初创公司，例如 A 轮或 B 轮）的指导，和/或创始人应该每周花多少时间（最佳实践）来招聘这样的人？

Lauren Ipsen: I mean, I think if you're going to search, so if you're looking for this individual, it's really so case to case.

劳伦·伊普森：我的意思是，我认为如果你要寻找这个人，那么这确实是个案。

There's searches that I've been in that I call three people.

我参与过一些搜索，我给三个人打电话。

I know they're amazing for this.

我知道他们在这方面很了不起。

I tell the founder and CEO, "These are the three people you should chat with, hire one of them." And it's that easy.

我告诉创始人兼首席执行官，“你应该和这三个人聊天，雇佣其中一个。”就是这么简单。

Lauren Ipsen: There's others where it's a lot of trying to figure out what the person's actually looking for.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：还有一些人需要花很多功夫去弄清楚这个人真正在寻找什么。

If there's some ...

如果有一些...

they hit it off from an emotional standpoint.

他们从情感的角度一拍即合。

There's so many different things that come with it.

随之而来的是很多不同的东西。

I would say from a timing perspective, it's not a hard number.

我想说，从时间角度来看，这不是一个硬数字。

It's more of just put yourself in the room with great people.

更重要的是让自己和优秀的人在一起。

If you have a tremendous amount of respect for someone, continue to harvest that relationship and ask what good looks like.

如果你对某人怀有极大的尊重，请继续收获这种关系并询问什么是好的。

Find excuses to continue to touch base with people that are important in your network.

找借口继续与你的网络中重要的人保持联系。

If you remembered that they'd mentioned that they were going to some event and you think that you might want to hire them down the road, in a non-creepy way, show up to that event.

如果你记得他们提到过他们要去参加某个活动，并且你认为你可能想在未来雇用他们，以一种不令人毛骨悚然的方式，那就去参加那个活动。

These are things that I'm constantly doing, and I think that founders can do a better job of, but just make yourself known and relevant.

这些是我一直在做的事情，我认为创始人可以做得更好，但只需让自己出名并与相关。

And then when you reach out and timing is right, it won't feel so obscure or so transactional.

然后当你伸出援手并且时机合适时，它就不会感觉那么晦涩或那么事务性。

Lenny: That reminds me of a time at Airbnb where we had these meetups for engineers every month or so where it was a tech talk, and then all the engineers get a target engineer that is coming to the event.

Lenny：这让我想起在 Airbnb 的时候，我们每个月都会为工程师举办一次技术讲座，然后所有工程师都会找到一位即将参加活动的目标工程师。

Like they get their profile and their picture, and their job is to make sure they have a great time and try to convince them to join someday.

就像他们得到他们的个人资料和照片一样，他们的工作就是确保他们度过愉快的时光并试图说服他们有一天加入。

Lauren Ipsen: Oh my god.

劳伦·伊普森：天啊。

But it's so real.

但这是那么真实。

It's similar to college trips where you're trying to get recruited for a sport, and you have to ensure that you're, yeah, just continuing to give people the best experience possible and staying top of mind for people.

这类似于大学旅行，你试图招募一项运动，你必须确保你，是的，只是继续为人们提供尽可能最好的体验，并保持人们的首要关注。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

But I can see it being creepy, They have no idea there's this person assigned to them, but it works.

但我觉得这很令人毛骨悚然，他们不知道有这个人分配给他们，但它确实有效。

It worked great.

效果很好。

It was a great tactic.

这是一个很棒的策略。

Lenny: I want to come back to a question that I asked, but I feel like you'll have an actual more concrete answer to the specific piece of just, what's your guidance per week how much time you should be spending on hiring broadly, and specifically, heads of product, if that's any different.

莱尼：我想回到我问的一个问题，但我觉得你会对具体问题有一个更具体的答案，你每周的指导是什么，你应该花多少时间广泛招聘，特别是产品负责人，如果有什么不同的话。

Do you have any just advice?

你有什么公正的建议吗？

Because I imagine it's always spend more time than you think.

因为我想它花费的时间总是比你想象的要多。

It's going to take a lot of time.

这将需要很多时间。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, it's definitely spend more time than you think.

Lauren Ipsen：是的，花费的时间肯定比你想象的要多。

If you are in an actual search, then you should devote all of your time to it.

如果你正在进行实际的搜索，那么你应该投入所有的时间。

I know that sucks to hear, but you should be really carving out concrete time.

我知道这听起来很糟糕，但你应该真正挤出具体的时间。

Lauren Ipsen: The thing that's tough though is you could spend, I guess what I was trying to say is you could spend one hour on something or you could spend 10 hours on it, but it's more so around, are you doing things to be impactful during that period of time?

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：虽然困难的是你可以花，我想我想说的是你可以花一个小时在某件事上，或者你可以花 10 个小时在上面，但更重要的是，你在那段时间做的事情是有影响力的吗？

Are you actually doing things that are going to move the needle?

你真的在做一些能够带来改变的事情吗？

Are you just blindly reaching out to people on LinkedIn?

您是否只是盲目地与 LinkedIn 上的人联系？

Because that's not going to be the way in which you're going to find the best of the best.

因为这不会是你找到最好的人的方式。

Some of the greatest talent, they're not even on LinkedIn.

有些最伟大的人才，他们甚至不在 LinkedIn 上。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I think it's building a really strong network in advance, and then once you actually get to a place where you need to hire that person, calling all of those amazing people that you've built relationships with and saying, "Now tell me who your favorite person is and who the best person you've ever worked with is, and could you put me on a thread with them?" How are you going to differentiate yourself from the rest of the market?

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为这是提前建立一个非常强大的网络，然后一旦你真正到达需要雇用那个人的地方，打电话给所有与你建立关系的出色人士并说：“现在告诉我你最喜欢的人是谁以及与你共事过的最好的人是谁，你能让我与他们建立联系吗？”您将如何使自己与市场其他产品区分开来？

So it's less in my mind like a quantitative number of hours and more of, how are you doing things differently than the rest of the market?

因此，在我看来，这并不是一个定量的小时数，而是更多的是，你们的做法与市场其他公司有何不同？

Lenny: I want to pull on this thread.

莱尼：我想拉动这个话题。

Okay, so spending one hour versus 10 hours, and your point about how you could spend one hour and get as much done maybe in those 10 hours.

好的，那么花 1 小时与 10 小时比较，以及您如何花 1 小时在这 10 小时内完成尽可能多的工作的观点。

What sorts of behaviors and actions should folks take to make use of, say, that one hour in hiring?

人们应该采取什么样的行为和行动来利用招聘中的一小时？

How do you not waste your time?

怎样才能不浪费时间呢？

Lauren Ipsen: I mean, I would say I've got probably five of my all time favorite product leaders in the world that I tap whenever I'm kicking off a search.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我的意思是，我想说，我在世界上可能有五位我一直以来最喜欢的产品领导者，每当我开始搜索时，我都会点击他们。

And they know that whenever life brings them to an opportunity where they are going to start looking or want to lean into board opportunities, that I'm going to set them up and shout their name from the rooftop, so oftentimes they're willing to point me in the right direction of great people, make those introductions, what have you, and I'm going to know simply because of how great they are that they would never put me in touch with someone that wasn't equally as qualified.

他们知道，每当生活给他们带来一个机会，让他们开始寻找或想要进入董事会的机会时，我就会为他们做好准备，并在屋顶上喊出他们的名字，所以他们常常愿意为我指明正确的方向，向优秀的人进行介绍，介绍你，我会知道，仅仅因为他们有多优秀，他们永远不会让我与那些不具备同等资格的人接触。

Lauren Ipsen: So that I think because the quality is there, so I'm not just blindly guessing on quantity, spending a ton of time on LinkedIn, and then having to call unknown entities and ask for back channel references when they also might not even feel comfortable sharing the dirt.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以我认为，因为质量就在那里，所以我不会只是盲目地猜测数量，在 LinkedIn 上花费大量时间，然后不得不打电话给未知实体并要求提供反向渠道参考资料，而他们甚至可能不愿意分享这些信息。

You know?

你知道？

So it comes back to rapport and people that you have around you that you know you can trust and tap into and ensuring that you're spending the time in the right areas.

因此，这又回到了融洽的关系以及你周围可以信任和利用的人，并确保你把时间花在正确的领域。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Yeah, so tapping your network makes a lot of sense.

是的，所以利用你的网络很有意义。

If you don't have that yet, I guess is it worth spending time on LinkedIn just cold messaging people as a founder, and any tips there for just cold outreach that you think work for a founder doing it versus you who are a professional at it?

如果你还没有做到这一点，我想花时间在LinkedIn上作为创始人向人们发送冷消息是否值得，以及那里有什么建议可以帮助你认为对创始人来说是工作，而不是对专业人士来说？

Lauren Ipsen: I do think it is worth that time.

Lauren Ipsen：我确实认为花时间是值得的。

If you see someone that looks amazing, hell yeah, reach out to them, spend time with them, why not?

如果你看到某人看起来很棒，是的，向他们伸出援手，花时间和他们在一起，为什么不呢？

And oftentimes, again, people are excited to see, oh, this CEO and founder wants to pick my brain, doesn't look like they're coming at me to try and recruit me, but rather just to have an open-ended conversation.

人们常常很兴奋地看到，哦，这位首席执行官和创始人想要听取我的意见，看起来他们并不是来找我试图招募我，而只是为了进行一次开放式的对话。

For sure, and they can sense.

当然，他们能感觉到。

You can definitely sense that type of interaction and feel comfortable with it, whereas sometimes the walls immediately go up when someone senses that they're trying to get poached.

你绝对可以感受到这种类型的互动，并对此感到舒服，而有时，当有人意识到他们试图被挖走时，墙会立即竖起。

Lauren Ipsen: And so it's I think something that's worth them doing for sure.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为这肯定值得他们去做。

It's just if you are going to look for a key executive and are on a time crunch, I don't necessarily think the best use of your time is blindly reaching out to executives when you don't necessarily have the expertise in knowing which companies were thriving during that period of time, which organizations were great, and which were a little bit weaker within companies.

只是，如果你要寻找一位关键高管，并且时间紧迫，我并不认为最好的利用你时间的方式就是盲目地接触高管，因为你不一定具备专业知识，知道哪些公司在那段时间蓬勃发展，哪些组织很棒，哪些公司内部比较弱。

All of those things are just the inner workings of the recruiting atmosphere and technology, and I think tapping people, if you don't have the network, talk to a great recruiter or just spend some time kind of doing some research on who's great.

所有这些都只是招聘氛围和技术的内部运作，我认为，如果你没有网络，可以与优秀的招聘人员交谈，或者只是花一些时间研究谁是优秀的。

You can ask investors or board members in your companies as to who you should be targeting.

您可以询问公司的投资者或董事会成员您应该瞄准谁。

So there's always got to be one or two people that can at least point you to another three or four.

因此，总有一两个人至少可以向你指出另外三四个人。

Lenny: That reminds me of a tactic Gokul shared on this podcast about one of his best tricks, as you think of, if you're hiring salespeople, instead of looking for who are just the best salespeople, you look for the company that is known for being really good at sales and then you go find people there and try to poach their lieutenant types, not maybe necessarily their head of sales.

莱尼：这让我想起了戈库尔在这个播客上分享的关于他最好的技巧之一的策略，正如你所想，如果你正在招聘销售人员，而不是寻找谁是最好的销售人员，你会寻找一家以真正擅长销售而闻名的公司，然后你去找那里的人，并试图挖走他们的副手类型，不一定是他们的销售主管。

Do you think that's a good move?

你认为这是一个好的举动吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Yes and no, because I think if the organization is incredibly good at sales then the majority of the folks are probably amazing, but you always have weak links, and just because someone has a brand on their resume at the right time, I think oftentimes CEOs and founders will do this thing where they kind over generalize, well, Amazon's Prime team at this time was amazing or something like that.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：是的，也不是，因为我认为如果一个组织在销售方面非常出色，那么大多数人可能都很棒，但你总是有薄弱环节，仅仅因为某人在正确的时间在他们的简历上有一个品牌，我认为首席执行官和创始人经常会做这样的事情，他们有点过度概括，嗯，亚马逊的 Prime 团队此时很棒或类似的东西。

It's like, they definitely could have been, but just as any other company, there's going to be people that are breakout, top 1% type individuals, and then other individuals that get to ride the wave and reap the benefits of being at the right place at the right time.

就好像，他们绝对可以做到，但就像任何其他公司一样，总会有突破性的人，顶尖的 1% 类型的人，然后其他人能够乘风破浪，并在正确的时间在正确的地点获得好处。

And I think that's a good starting place, but then also spending time getting a little bit deeper on who the best people are within that organization.

我认为这是一个很好的起点，但随后还要花时间更深入地了解该组织内谁是最优秀的人才。

But yeah, we always start with market mapping, so determining who the best companies are within a specific area, and then I just encourage everyone to take that a layer deeper.

但是，是的，我们总是从市场地图开始，因此确定特定领域内最好的公司，然后我只是鼓励每个人更深入地了解这一点。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

It just comes back to your previous piece of advice.

这又回到了你之前的建议。

Don't assume someone that has an awesome logo is going to be great, but sometimes they are.

不要以为拥有出色徽标的人就会很棒，但有时确实如此。

There's a question I should have asked you at the beginning that I'm going to ask now.

有一个问题我应该一开始就问你，但现在我要问你。

How many folks have you placed?

你安置了多少人？

How many companies have you worked with?

您与多少家公司合作过？

And then also, is there a story of just your favorite person that you've placed/company you've helped hire that comes to mind?

还有，是否有一个关于您所安排的最喜欢的人/您帮助雇用的公司的故事？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

So both great questions.

所以这两个问题都很好。

I've placed probably 85 executives over the course of my career, and then lots of entry level employees when I was in house, and also some great key leaders.

在我的职业生涯中，我安置了大约 85 名高管，当我在公司任职时，我安置了许多初级员工，还有一些出色的关键领导者。

Yeah, probably 85 searches that I've opened and closed, so that's been incredibly fulfilling work.

是的，我可能打开和关闭了 85 个搜索，所以这是一项非常有成就感的工作。

It's also fun too on the exec side of things because you hire the VP of engineering at Postmates and you see firsthand the product change.

在执行方面也很有趣，因为你聘请了 Postmates 的工程副总裁，并且你可以亲眼目睹产品的变化。

You know, you watch those types of things happen before your eyes, which is, it's fulfilling stuff, it's really cool.

你知道，你看到这些类型的事情发生在你眼前，这就是令人满足的事情，这真的很酷。

Lenny: And delivery gets there faster too.

莱尼：送货也更快。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，是的，完全正确。

So, that's really fun.

所以，这真的很有趣。

Favorite placement of all time has got to be the VP of engineering that I placed at IRL, which is, to be completely honest, a big reason that I joined that company.

一直以来我最喜欢的职位就是我在 IRL 担任的工程副总裁，说实话，这是我加入那家公司的一个重要原因。

Alex Strand is his name, and he is just the most incredible, atypical, high emotional intelligent engineering leader.

Alex Strand 是他的名字，他是最令人难以置信、非典型、高情商的工程领导者。

Still super technical, but has managed teams in the hundreds, built out Amazon Prime Day, then went on to build the core messaging platform at Snapchat, called him and he was like, "Why would I ever leave?

仍然是超级技术人员，但管理过数百个团队，建立了亚马逊 Prime Day，然后继续在 Snapchat 建立核心消息平台，给他打电话，他说，“我为什么要离开？

There's a ton of financial incentive and a team that I've built that all loves me."

我有大量的经济激励和一支大家都爱我的团队。”

Lauren Ipsen: And we got him to ultimately make a move in two weeks, which is just kind of unheard of, although it ended up being like a seven month push for a start date, but that was a big reason why I went and joined IRL was to work side by side him and help build out his team and learn to get more deep on the technical side of things.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我们让他最终在两周内采取行动，这有点闻所未闻，尽管最终开始日期需要七个月的时间，但这是我加入 IRL 的一个重要原因，就是与他并肩工作，帮助建立他的团队并学习更深入地了解技术方面。

Because oftentimes, on the executive level, as mentioned before, can be sometimes more of that people management type role.

因为通常情况下，正如前面提到的，在执行层面上，有时可能更多的是人员管理类型的角色。

And so he just felt like this unique hybrid of an individual, and yeah, you close searches and you cross your fingers and hope for the best and feel very good about it, but he was one where I had all the confidence in the world that I could not have done better.

所以他感觉就像是一个独特的个体混合体，是的，你仔细搜索，你交叉手指，希望最好的结果，感觉非常好，但他是我对世界充满信心的人，我不可能做得更好。

You know?

你知道？

I just felt so great about that.

我对此感觉非常好。

So, that was a good one.

所以，这是一件好事。

Lenny: I don't know how much more confidence you could instill in a candidate joining a company than the recruiter also then joining the company.

莱尼：我不知道你能给加入公司的候选人灌输多少信心，而不是招聘人员加入公司后的信心。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, I did say that to him.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，我确实对他这么说过。

I kept saying, "And if I were to go in house, I swear this is probably the company I would do it for." And then about four weeks after he signed, I'd texted him and I said, "Well, you'll never guess."

我一直说，“如果我要进入公司，我发誓这可能就是我愿意为之工作的公司。”在他签约后大约四个星期，我给他发短信说：“好吧，你永远猜不到。”

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

What a stamp of confidence.

这是多么自信的印记啊。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

And a full circle life moment.

以及一个完整的生命循环时刻。

I sent him a box of cookies, he sent it back and said, "Your turn."

我寄给他一盒饼干，他寄回来并说：“轮到你了。”

Lenny: And is he still there at IRL?

莱尼：他还在现实世界吗？

Awesome.

惊人的。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Lenny: Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

Lenny：另外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Lenny: Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

Lenny：开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious, and expensive.

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输入万塔。

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超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

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Lenny：在有限的时间内，Lenny 的 Podcast 听众可以从 Vanta 获得 1,000 美元的折扣。

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只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: I want to shift a little bit to kind of flip to the product person's perspective and talk about, how do you be successful as a product leader in finding new opportunities and giving yourself opportunities in the space?

Lenny：我想从产品人员的角度来谈谈，作为产品领导者，你如何成功地找到新的机会并为自己在这个领域提供机会？

And so maybe a first question is just generally, what should product leaders and PMs focus on to give themselves the most opportunity in their career?

因此，也许第一个问题只是一般性的，产品领导者和产品经理应该关注什么才能为自己的职业生涯提供最多的机会？

Lauren Ipsen: I think breadth is incredibly important.

Lauren Ipsen：我认为广度非常重要。

It's so critical, especially if someone has an end goal of wanting to step into a product leadership role to have been able to have touched lots of different components, as opposed to specializing in one specific thing.

这是非常重要的，特别是如果某人的最终目标是想要进入产品领导角色，以便能够接触许多不同的组件，而不是专注于某一特定的事情。

So I would say that's very important, to be able to make sure that you're maximizing opportunities for yourself down the road.

所以我想说，这非常重要，能够确保你在未来的道路上最大限度地利用机会。

Lauren Ipsen: And then as mentioned before, just always keeping a pulse on the market, regardless of how happy you are in your current company, regardless of what the project is that you're so incredibly excited about that isn't going to conclude until Q1 of next year.

劳伦·伊普森：然后，正如之前提到的，始终保持市场脉搏，无论你在当前的公司有多高兴，无论你对什么项目感到非常兴奋，但要到明年第一季度才会结束。

It's just so important that you always know the companies that are doing great things and keep those windows open for people, because you never know what the next 12 months hold, and you want to be in a position where you're never running out the door looking for what's next, but rather being able to be super selective about the things that you have in front of you.

重要的是，你要始终了解哪些公司正在做伟大的事情，并为人们敞开大门，因为你永远不知道接下来的 12 个月会发生什么，你希望自己永远不会跑出家门寻找下一步，而是能够对你面前的事情进行超级选择性。

And that comes with time and network building and relationship building over years, honestly.

老实说，这是多年来时间、网络建设和关系建立的结果。

Lenny: And when you say breadth, are you saying things like work on the platform team for a bit, work on the user facing team, maybe the internal tools team, like different types of product, or something else?

Lenny：当你说广度时，你是指在平台团队工作一段时间，在面向用户的团队工作，也许是内部工具团队，比如不同类型的产品，或者其他什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Exactly that.

劳伦·伊普森：正是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

I think there's people that probably want to just be a specialist in growth, or want to get super deep on ads, and if that's the case, then by all means, do so.

我认为有些人可能只想成为增长方面的专家，或者想要深入了解广告，如果是这种情况，那么无论如何，都要这样做。

And I think there's something to be said about that as well because those types of skillsets will be needed.

我认为对此也有一些话要说，因为需要这些类型的技能。

But if you're looking to diversify your skillset, continue to grow from a career trajectory perspective and think about potentially being in a head of product type role, I think it's really important that you touch all aspects of that.

但是，如果您希望使自己的技能多样化，从职业轨迹的角度继续成长，并考虑担任产品类型负责人的可能性，我认为接触这方面的各个方面非常重要。

Lenny: I'm really happy to hear that because that's exactly the advice I give new PMs is that a variety of experience is one of the most powerful things you can do because you also just become a better PM because you can see how different types of products are built and how different types of teams operate and it just makes you better.

Lenny：我真的很高兴听到这个消息，因为这正是我给新 PM 的建议，即丰富的经验是你能做的最有力的事情之一，因为你也能成为一名更好的 PM，因为你可以看到不同类型的产品是如何构建的以及不同类型的团队如何运作，这只会让你变得更好。

Lauren Ipsen: Yes.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

Variety of experience, I think taking a bet on doing something more entrepreneurial, starting something, and then also joining things that are a little bit later and more established to get best practices.

各种经验，我认为押注于做一些更具创业性的事情，开始一些事情，然后加入一些后来更成熟的事情以获得最佳实践。

I think diversifying your skillset within an organization but also diversifying the work in which you're doing and the companies that you're spending time with is awesome.

我认为在一个组织内使你的技能多样化，而且使你正在从事的工作和你所工作的公司多样化是非常棒的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So on that, something I'm always weary of is folks jumping around between all the fancy companies to get a bunch of logos on the resume.

因此，我总是厌倦的是人们在所有高档公司之间跳来跳去，以在简历上获得一堆徽标。

"Oh, I worked at Snap and Facebook and Netflix," and I feel like you're just building a resume and then your life flies by, and you forget that you should enjoy the things you're doing and work on things that are fulfilling and optimized for not a great resume.

“哦，我在 Snap、Facebook 和 Netflix 工作过，”我觉得你只是在写一份简历，然后你的生活就过去了，你忘记了你应该享受你正在做的事情，并致力于那些充实和优化的事情，而不是一份伟大的简历。

And, curious your thoughts on just how often you think you should move from company to company, one to optimize for opportunities in the future, or just generally, do you recommend people try to move around or go deeper at their company?

而且，想知道您认为自己应该多久从一家公司跳槽到另一家公司，以优化未来的机会，或者只是一般而言，您是否建议人们尝试四处流动或在他们的公司更深入？

There's a bunch of questions there, but take it wherever you want to.

那里有很多问题，但是你可以把它带到任何你想去的地方。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，是的。

Okay.

好的。

Sounds good.

听起来不错。

I think it's an interesting one because logo collecting is never something that you want to be known for, and the first thing you're taught, like entry level recruiting 101 is recognize patterns of candidates that jump from place to place and don't give opportunities a full chance.

我认为这是一个有趣的事情，因为标志收集从来都不是你想要出名的事情，而你学到的第一件事，就像入门级招聘 101 一样，是识别从一个地方跳到另一个地方并且不给机会充分机会的候选人的模式。

So, you're spot on.

所以，你说得对。

That is definitely not something you want to be known for if you're a prospect.

如果你是一个潜在客户，这绝对不是你想要为人所知的事情。

Lauren Ipsen: There's also something to be said about staying somewhere too long though.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：不过，还有一些关于在某个地方停留太久的问题。

And I will say that.

我会这么说。

I think sometimes you find people that are almost loyal to a fault, and companies have tanked and all executives have left and the writing's on the wall, and they're holding onto the fact that they were hired by a really good guy or gal and they want to make it work because they care about the human being, and I think sometimes in your career you do have to be a little bit more selfish and think about what's going to be best for you in the long haul.

我认为有时你会发现一些人几乎对错误忠诚，公司陷入困境，所有高管都离开了，他们坚持这样一个事实，即他们是被一个非常好的男人或女孩雇用的，他们想让它发挥作用，因为他们关心人类，我认为有时在你的职业生涯中，你确实必须更自私一点，想想从长远来看什么对你来说是最好的。

And so maybe that is still keeping your head down and working hard while also being thoughtful about other things that are out there and not saying hard nos to opportunities that knock on your door.

因此，也许你仍然要低着头努力工作，同时也要考虑外面的其他事情，不要对敲门的机会强硬地说不。

Lauren Ipsen: So it's one where I would say it's an art and a science because you have to be thoughtful about taking on new things and knowing when it's worth taking a bet on yourself, but also you can't run as soon as things get hard because that is recognized, and if there's a riff or an internal dispute or a new leader brought in, and that is so quick as to make you run for the fences, that's not something that people look for because startup world is hard, tech is hard.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以我想说这是一门艺术和一门科学，因为你必须深思熟虑地接受新事物，知道什么时候值得为自己下注，但你也不能在事情变得困难时就逃跑，因为这是公认的，如果出现即兴发挥或内部争议或新领导上任，那么很快就会让你逃跑，这不是人们所寻找的东西，因为创业世界很艰难，技术是很难。

Look at the crypto world right now.

看看现在的加密世界。

Things are incredibly volatile and difficult, and you want to be able to bring people in that are going to hang with you through the highs and lows.

事情是极其不稳定和困难的，你希望能够让那些能够陪伴你度过高潮和低谷的人加入进来。

Lauren Ipsen: We're always looking to see where people moved the needle, especially on the product side, where their fingerprints were, what they can actually point to that they did and are proud of during their time there.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我们一直在寻找人们的行动方向，特别是在产品方面，他们的指纹在哪里，他们实际上可以指出他们在那里所做的事情以及为之感到自豪的事情。

And so if all that they can say that they did was onboarded and moved on, then doesn't matter where you were, but it's not going to be something that I can at least stand on to cheer you on.

因此，如果他们能说的只是加入并继续前进，那么你在哪里并不重要，但我至少不会站着为你加油。

Lenny: I really like that.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这样。

A lot of this comes down to, what impact have you made?

这很大程度上取决于，你产生了什么影响？

And I was going to touch on that, and your point is, one, kind of heuristic for how long to stay at a place at the minimum is have some meaningful impact you can point to that you led.

我正要谈到这一点，你的观点是，一种启发式，即在一个地方至少停留多长时间会产生一些有意义的影响，你可以指出你所领导的影响。

Does that sound right?

听起来对吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, exactly.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，完全正确。

And have that meaningful impact be something that others can speak to.

并使其他人可以谈论这种有意义的影响。

I think that's huge.

我认为那是巨大的。

If you built something within the organization that you're proud of but no one knows about it, then that's more difficult to have as your stamp of approval for what you are able to accomplish there.

如果你在组织内建立了一些让你感到自豪的东西，但没有人知道它，那么就更难获得你对你在那里能够完成的事情的认可印记。

But if you did something that cross-functional leaders were speaking to, that your team all sings the praises of, then that is something that you can put a feather in the cap and say, "Okay, I left this place better than I found it, and that's the reason that I have decided to move forward."

但如果你做了一些跨职能领导者正在谈论的事情，你的团队都称赞的事情，那么你就可以大加赞扬，并说：“好吧，我离开这个地方比我发现它时更好，这就是我决定继续前进的原因。”

Lenny: And I imagine part of that is reference checks.

莱尼：我想其中一部分是背景调查。

People are going to check to see if you actually were successful.

人们会检查你是否真的成功了。

Lauren Ipsen: All the time.

劳伦·伊普森：一直都是。

Yup.

是的。

Whether you are exploratory, opportunistic, not looking at all, people are constantly calling each other, and the world of tech is so, so, so small, and no matter how fired up you were leaving a company or what went sideways, it is so critical that you try to leave the place better than you found it and do so as seamlessly as possible, because you want people to have nothing but positive to say.

无论你是探索性的、机会主义的、不看人的，人们总是在互相打电话，而科技的世界是如此、如此、如此之小，无论你离开一家公司时多么兴奋，或者发生了什么事，重要的是你要尝试比你刚发现的时候更好地离开这个地方，并且尽可能无缝地离开，因为你希望人们除了积极的言论之外什么也没有。

And oftentimes, that ...

而且很多时候，那...

The thing that I always find too is if I call 10 people that were a part of the same organization as someone during a given period of time and they can't speak to anything they did, in that case, no news is not necessarily good news.

我也经常发现的一件事是，如果我在给定时间段内给与某人属于同一组织的 10 个人打电话，而他们无法说出他们所做的任何事情，在这种情况下，没有消息不一定是好消息。

You want to have an impact, you want to be able to say, "I did X, Y and Z.

你想要产生影响，你想要能够说，“我做了 X、Y 和 Z。

I'm super proud of this and the reason I moved on is because I did what I came in to accomplish."

我对此感到非常自豪，我继续前进的原因是因为我做了我要完成的事情。”

Lenny: It's a little bit innately tricky for product leaders.

Lenny：对于产品领导者来说，这本质上有点棘手。

I imagine you run into this, that sometimes you have to upset people as a product leader to get stuff done that needs to get done and maybe they disagree and then later it's like, okay, I see what you did.

我想你会遇到这样的情况，有时作为产品负责人，你必须让人们感到不安才能完成需要完成的事情，也许他们不同意，然后就像，好吧，我明白你做了什么。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Do you deal with that or is it generally like, oh, yeah, they're the great people everyone knows, like a hundred percent of people will say they're awesome?

你是否会处理这个问题，或者通常是这样的，哦，是的，他们是每个人都知道的伟大的人，就像百分之一百的人会说他们很棒一样？

Lauren Ipsen: It's a really good question.

劳伦·伊普森：这是一个非常好的问题。

I think there's a way to navigate conflict without rubbing people the wrong way so that they'll say negative things.

我认为有一种方法可以解决冲突，而又不会以错误的方式激怒人们，以免他们说出负面的话。

There's a way to be an impactful product leader and disagree and make change, and maybe your engineering leader and design leader and marketing leader completely disagree with the direction in which you're going, but because you have all of the data to support it and because you have gone about things in a way that feels very fact first and less emotional, it's really difficult for them to then point to why they disliked this person.

有一种方法可以成为一个有影响力的产品领导者，提出不同意见并做出改变，也许你的工程领导者、设计领导者和营销领导者完全不同意你前进的方向，但因为你有所有的数据来支持它，而且因为你以一种感觉非常事实第一、不那么情绪化的方式处理事情，所以他们真的很难指出为什么他们不喜欢这个人。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

This is interesting.

这很有趣。

So say you make those 10 calls, in your experience, the leaders you want to hire, are you finding 10 out of 10 are generally like, "Yes, this person's amazing, you should hire them"?

假设你打了这 10 个电话，根据你的经验，你想雇用的领导者，你是否发现十分之十的人通常会说，“是的，这个人很棒，你应该雇用他们”？

Lauren Ipsen: There's ones that are slam dunks and no one has any negative to say.

劳伦·伊普森：有些是灌篮高手，没有人有任何负面评价。

That's incredibly rare.

这是极其罕见的。

More often you find some people like to just have something negative to say, just to have something negative to say.

更多时候你会发现有些人喜欢只说一些消极的话，只是说一些消极的话。

I also take all of my back channels with a grain of salt.

我对所有的背部通道也持保留态​​度。

Maybe the person I'm calling to back channel this person with I also haven't back channeled, right?

也许我打电话给他的人也没有回复我，对吧？

Lauren Ipsen: So every single thing that you hear, you just take, make note of, and then move on and think more holistically about.

劳伦·伊普森：所以你听到的每一件事，你只需记下、记下，然后继续进行更全面的思考。

But I think typically what I would say is the glaring nos are very obvious.

但我认为通常我会说的是明显的拒绝是非常明显的。

People that are polarizing individuals or have done wrong within an organization or made bad calls across the board are, you can get that information typically pretty quick.

对于那些使个人两极分化、在组织内做错事或全面做出错误决定的人，您通常可以很快获得这些信息。

Lauren Ipsen: It's the mixed ones where it's, "I think that person was decent," those are pretty tough, and you need to really find people that worked super closely with them because otherwise it's pretty difficult to say whether or not they were able to make an impact.

劳伦·伊普森：这是一个混合的问题，“我认为那个人很正派”，这些是非常困难的，你需要真正找到与他们密切合作的人，否则很难说他们是否能够产生影响。

Which again comes back to why right off the bat it's so nice to just have people that you can tap within every organization that's like an academy company or a great company and say, "Point me in the direction of the three best people." I don't want to have to go through the burden of having to try and back channel all of the maybe middle 50% or what have you.

这又回到了为什么立即拥有可以在每个组织（例如学院公司或伟大的公司）中挑选的人员并说：“为我指明三个最好的人的方向”是多么好的事情。我不想承受必须尝试并返回所有中间 50% 或其他人的负担。

Lenny: Yeah, most people don't have that, which is a reason to hire, work with a recruiter.

莱尼：是的，大多数人都没有这一点，而这正是雇用招聘人员、与招聘人员合作的理由。

You come build in with all of that network.

您将融入所有该网络。

Lenny: There's a couple things I want to touch on that I wasn't planning to touch on, but reference calls.

莱尼：有几件事我想谈一谈，但我本来不打算谈的，但是参考电话。

You do a lot of them, I imagine.

我想你会做很多这样的事。

And I'm curious, do you have any tips for how to ask questions on a reference call where you actually get useful advice where it's not just, "Yes, I like them, they're great.

我很好奇，对于如何在推荐电话中提问，您是否有任何建议，您实际上会得到有用的建议，而不仅仅是“是的，我喜欢他们，他们很棒。

Hire them"?

雇用他们”？

Lauren Ipsen: Especially on references, provided references, I've only had two candidates where provided references have come back negative, which that's tough.

劳伦·伊普森：特别是在推荐信方面，提供的推荐信，我只有两名候选人，他们提供的推荐信的结果都是负面的，这很难。

Outside of that, typically references are a standard.

除此之外，通常参考文献是一个标准。

It is important to dig pretty deep and ask the hard questions.

深入挖掘并提出难题非常重要。

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, why would I not hire this person?

劳伦·伊普森：是的，我为什么不雇用这个人呢？

What are their biggest weaknesses?

他们最大的弱点是什么？

And then if they give you the typical, "Oh, if they work too hard," it's like, no, tell me more.

然后，如果他们给你典型的“哦，如果他们工作太努力”，那就像是，不，告诉我更多。

What are their actual weaknesses?

他们的实际弱点是什么？

What are things that we should be really cognizant of?

哪些事情是我们真正应该认识的？

Would you hire this person again?

你会再次雇用这个人吗？

Would you report to this person?

你会向这个人汇报吗？

Would you endorse this person if you knew that your name was attached to it?

如果您知道此人附有您的名字，您会认可该人吗？

Things like that I think get people thinking, and even if you just sense the slightest pause, that in itself will be enough to make you think twice.

我认为类似的事情会让人思考，即使你只是感觉到最轻微的停顿，这本身就足以让你三思而后行。

Right?

正确的？

Lauren Ipsen: So it's a lot of reading the room and probing harder than you think necessary, which is tough.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：因此，需要进行大量的阅读和探究，这比您认为必要的要多，这很困难。

But back channel references I think will always provide a greater source of truth than provided.

但我认为，反向渠道参考总是会提供比所提供的更多的事实来源。

It's similar to an Instagram Reel as opposed to the photos you're tagged in.

它类似于 Instagram Reel，而不是您被标记的照片。

That's the way I think of it.

我就是这么想的。

It's like this is what you want the world to see or think of you as, and then these are what your peers and your direct reports and the people around you actually say about the work that you did during this time.

就好像这就是你希望世界看到或认为你的样子，然后这些就是你的同事、你的直接下属以及你周围的人对你这段时间所做的工作的实际评价。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Coming back to a point you made about recruiter training 101, you learn how to find patterns and red flags in people's resume.

回到您在招聘人员培训 101 中提出的观点，您将学习如何在人们的简历中发现模式和危险信号。

What else is a red flag in your resume that you want to avoid/there's a rule of thumb of like, if you're at a place for less than a year, it's bad.

你的简历中还有什么是你想要避免的危险信号/有一条经验法则，如果你在一个地方工作不到一年，那就很糟糕。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

How do you feel about that?

你对此有何感想？

How do hiring managers generally feel about that?

招聘经理对此有何普遍看法？

Lauren Ipsen: It definitely depends, with regards to being at a place less than a year.

劳伦·伊普森：这绝对取决于在一个地方工作不到一年的情况。

If that's a recurring theme, of course that's a big red flag.

如果这是一个反复出现的主题，那当然是一个很大的危险信号。

Even if it's happened two or three times, three definitely.

即使发生过两三次，也绝对是三次。

If it's happened twice, it's like, "Huh, that feels off." You got to let people tell their story though and their side of things, and again, it comes back to reaching out to different people and understanding if what they're saying is true was actually the truth.

如果这种事发生两次，就会说，“呃，感觉不太对劲。”你必须让人们讲述他们的故事和他们的观点，然后再一次回到接触不同的人并了解他们所说的是否真的是事实。

And so when you have a really good pulse on what's happening in tech and whether there was a riff and the reason that person was let go was actually because they weren't prioritizing a certain part of the product or whatever, like those things, it happens.

因此，当你对科技领域正在发生的事情以及是否存在即兴发挥有很好的把握时，而那个人被解雇的原因实际上是因为他们没有优先考虑产品的某个部分或其他什么，比如那些事情，它就会发生。

That's life, especially right now, right?

这就是生活，尤其是现在，对吗？

If we were to X every single person that has a short stint that joined a new company over the course of the past year, that wouldn't do anyone any good.

如果我们对过去一年中短暂加入新公司的每个人进行 X 调查，那对任何人都没有任何好处。

Lauren Ipsen: Another thing I've found that's pretty interesting is that people will often, because they're so afraid of that narrative, they'll often not include on their resume companies that they didn't stay for a year.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我发现的另一件非常有趣的事情是，人们经常会因为害怕这种叙述而不会在简历中包含他们没有呆过一年的公司。

And in my personal opinion, that's actually almost more of a red flag because that did happen, and you don't want to just pretend like that wasn't a decision you made in your life, and usually is handled with grace.

在我个人看来，这实际上更像是一个危险信号，因为这种情况确实发生了，你不想假装这不是你在生活中做出的决定，而且通常会得到优雅的处理。

You can speak to the reason that you decided to make a bet, the reason that you went there, and the reason that you moved on, in a way that people can typically resonate with.

你可以用人们通常能产生共鸣的方式讲述你决定下注的原因、你去那里的原因以及你继续前进的原因。

But I've seen executives just put that they've simply been advising for two years or something like that, when in reality they had two companies that failed.

但我看到高管们只是说他们只是提供了两年的咨询或类似的东西，而实际上他们有两家公司失败了。

Lauren Ipsen: And the fact of the matter is, I have some CFO candidates I'm talking to right now and their past three years have been short stints because they were brought in to take a company through an IPO and then that changed, or they were brought in to enter into a SPAC and then that became less of the buzz.

劳伦·伊普森：事实是，我现在正在和一些首席财务官候选人交谈，他们过去三年的任期很短，因为他们被邀请来带领一家公司进行首次公开​​募股，然后情况发生了变化，或者他们被邀请进入SPAC，然后就不再那么热门了。

Right?

正确的？

Lauren Ipsen: So these things happen and roles change, and I think it's just allowing people to tell their story is the most important thing.

劳伦·伊普森：所以这些事情发生了，角色也发生了变化，我认为最重要的是让人们讲述他们的故事。

So I would say red flag is, for me, just always be honest about when you started, when you left a company.

所以我想说，对我来说，危险信号就是始终诚实地对待你何时开始、何时离开公司。

If I see that someone still has present on their LinkedIn but they've been gone for two years and they kind of are acting like they're still there, that doesn't feel good.

如果我看到某人的 LinkedIn 上仍然存在，但他们已经离开两年了，而且他们表现得好像还在那里，那感觉不太好。

Just want people to give you the truth, the straight facts, so that you can support them and tell their story and represent them in a way that makes you feel like you have all the details.

只是希望人们告诉你真相，直接的事实，这样你就可以支持他们，讲述他们的故事，并以一种让你觉得你掌握了所有细节的方式来代表他们。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So basically, don't lie.

所以基本上，不要撒谎。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

That reminds me a little bit of people kind of upgrade their titles a little bit because maybe they don't have an official title or they just want to sound a little important.

这让我想起了一些人稍微升级了他们的头衔，因为也许他们没有正式的头衔，或者他们只是想听起来有点重要。

How do you feel about when people do that on their resumes?

当人们在简历中这样做时，你有何感受？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, I don't love that.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，我不喜欢那样。

I also don't love on the resume when people, and some people do this and it's okay, but when people say silly, vague names like they'll say something along the lines of, "Whatever at Reddit," as their title or, "Master of blank at this," and it's like, okay, what were you actually doing?

我也不喜欢在简历上写一些人，有些人这样做，这没关系，但当人们说一些愚蠢的、模糊的名字时，比如他们会说“在 Reddit 上做什么”作为他们的头衔，或者“空白大师”，这就像是，好吧，你到底在做什么？

Lenny: But I think they do that to avoid recruiters reaching out to them.

莱尼：但我认为他们这样做是为了避免招聘人员联系他们。

Lauren Ipsen: Exactly.

劳伦·伊普森：没错。

As their direct target, I'm pissed.

作为他们的直接目标，我很生气。

So I feel directly attacked in that regard.

所以我觉得在这方面受到了直接的攻击。

So that's something that throws me off, but that could definitely be a personal thing.

所以这让我很失望，但这绝对可能是个人的事情。

And I think overall, for the most part, people don't have any other things that really just throw me for a loop.

我认为总的来说，在大多数情况下，人们没有任何其他真正让我感到困惑的事情。

And the fact of the matter is, resumes we look at less and less, especially at the executive level, and it's a lot more of allowing people to tell their story, meeting in person, talking with their different people that support them, and getting kind of more of the big picture around who they are.

事实上，我们看的简历越来越少，尤其是在高管层面，更多的是让人们讲述他们的故事，亲自会面，与支持他们的不同人交谈，并更多地了解他们是谁。

Lenny: I want to talk about what recruiters often do wrong and what you've learned there.

莱尼：我想谈谈招聘人员经常犯的错误以及你从中学到的东西。

But before we get there, one last question: do you have any tips for a product manager in the interviewing process, how to be more successful interviewing?

但在我们开始之前，最后一个问题是：在面试过程中，你对产品经理有什么建议吗？如何让面试更成功？

Lauren Ipsen: I've had this come up a few times when I've interviewed product folks that they'll speak down on their counterparts or say that the reason they weren't able to meet deadlines or push product in the right way was because of the engineering team or because of other components of the business and it wasn't them.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：当我采访产品人员时，我曾多次遇到过这样的情况，他们会贬低他们的同行，或者说他们无法按时完成任务或以正确的方式推出产品的原因是工程团队或业务的其他组成部分，而不是他们。

And so I think that's never a good way to go about it.

所以我认为这绝不是一个好方法。

So it seems obvious, but you would be surprised how not obvious it is.

所以这看起来很明显，但你会惊讶地发现它并不明显。

Lauren Ipsen: So thinking about things more holistically, speaking honestly about your strengths and things that you want to continue to grow and improve upon, and then being able to tell your story, like practice telling your story.

劳伦·伊普森：所以更全面地思考事情，诚实地谈论你的优势以及你想要继续成长和改进的事情，然后能够讲述你的故事，就像练习讲述你的故事一样。

So often people don't do that, especially when they're not looking for jobs, and then it's not until their 10th interview that they know how to tell their story and what they did and what they impacted and why they were someone to be missed when they moved on.

人们通常不会这样做，尤其是当他们不找工作的时候，直到第十次面试，他们才知道如何讲述自己的故事，他们做了什么，他们影响了什么，以及为什么他们在离开时会被怀念。

Those are things that you want to know how to speak to, and unless it's something you've been doing or practicing, it's less natural.

这些是你想知道如何说话的事情，除非这是你一直在做或练习的事情，否则就不那么自然。

That's some advice I think just off the top of the head.

这是我突然想到的一些建议。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's really good advice.

这真是个好建议。

One thing that makes me think about, I know I want to get to this last section, but do you think the best product leaders have their kind of story figured out in the future and work backwards from that and have a sense of where they want to end up, or just kind of take it as it goes?

让我思考的一件事是，我知道我想进入最后一部分，但你认为最好的产品领导者是否会在未来弄清楚他们的故事，并从中逆向工作，并了解他们想要结束的地方，或者只是顺其自然？

Because I'm the latter.

因为我就是后者。

I had no plan, I just went to see ...

我没有任何计划，我只是去看...

follow the path that was presented.

按照所提供的路径进行操作。

Do you think that is generally true for folks that end up being successful, or do you recommend people think about, "Here's where I want to be in five years, here's what I need to do to get there"?

您认为这对于最终取得成功的人来说通常是正确的吗？或者您是否建议人们思考“这是我在五年内想要达到的目标，这是我需要做的事情才能实现这一目标”？

Do you have any guidance there?

你那里有什么指导吗？

Lauren Ipsen: I mean, for what it's worth, I'm definitely more with you.

劳伦·伊普森：我的意思是，无论其价值如何，我绝对更支持你。

I don't know where I want to be in five years, so it's tough for me to say.

我不知道五年后我想做什么，所以我很难说。

But I do think that typically someone that has the end goal of being a CEO will put the pieces into place to try and get there, and so it's not a bad idea if you do have an end goal of wanting to run your own thing to inch towards that.

但我确实认为，通常，那些以成为首席执行官为最终目标的人会把各个部分放在适当的位置，尝试实现这一目标，因此，如果你确实有一个最终目标，想要经营自己的公司并逐步实现这一目标，那么这并不是一个坏主意。

So maybe you go from being a product specific leader to then operating in some type of GM of a business unit capacity and owning a P&L, and then although it's more of a product oriented role, you're still getting closer and closer to that end goal of COO or CEO.

因此，也许你从产品特定的领导者转变为某种类型的业务部门总经理，并拥有损益表，然后虽然它更多的是一个以产品为导向的角色，但你仍然越来越接近首席运营官或首席执行官的最终目标。

Lauren Ipsen: So if it's something like that, then I think that naturally makes sense.

劳伦·伊普森：所以如果是这样的话，那么我认为这自然是有道理的。

Do think people can be enticed by shiny objects, so excited because it's a step up from a title perspective and things like that, and I think that's just so not important in the grand scheme of things.

我确实认为人们会被闪亮的物体所吸引，所以很兴奋，因为从标题的角度来看这是一个进步，诸如此类的事情，我认为这在宏伟的计划中并不重要。

You could be the VP of product or a CPO of what, you know?

你可以担任产品副总裁或首席产品官，你知道吗？

That's so vague.

那太模糊了。

If someone just says, "I want to be a chief product officer, that's the end goal," I always say, "Of what?" You could be the chief product officer of your household.

如果有人只是说，“我想成为一名首席产品官，这就是最终目标，”我总是说，“什么？”您可能是您家庭的首席产品官。

Is it of a multi-billion dollar consumer brand or ...

它是一个价值数十亿美元的消费品牌还是......

Lauren Ipsen: So I guess what I'm trying to say is work backwards from a goal for sure, but don't allow titles or valuation bubbles or other things to derail something that feels good.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我想我想说的是肯定要从目标倒退，但不要让头衔、估值泡沫或其他事情破坏感觉良好的事情。

If you're in a role and you feel like you're making an impact and you're learning and you're growing and are excited about the work you're doing, do not allow a title of some other company to make you feel like what you're doing isn't worthwhile.

如果你在某个职位上，感觉自己正在产生影响，正在学习，正在成长，并对自己所做的工作感到兴奋，那么不要让其他公司的头衔让你觉得自己正在做的事情不值得。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

So many people just chase some fancy new role, new title, new logo, and end up getting there like, "Man, this sucks."

很多人只是追逐一些奇特的新角色、新头衔、新标志，最终得到的结果是，“伙计，这太糟糕了。”

Lenny: This reminds me, I did a meditation retreat once and one of the teachings there was you don't want to be fixated with achieving a specific thing, but you want to push your cart in that direction, just like head that direction and have a general sense, but not, "I need to be that thing and that's what'll make me happy."

莱尼：这让我想起，我曾经进行过一次冥想静修，其中的一个教导是，你不想专注于实现某件特定的事情，但你想把你的车推向那个方向，就像朝那个方向前进并有一个一般的感觉，但不是，“我需要成为那个东西，这会让我快乐。”

Lauren Ipsen: Exactly.

劳伦·伊普森：没错。

I think that's exactly right.

我认为这是完全正确的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Final topic is from the recruiter perspective, what do you find recruiters do wrong most often or miss when they're trying to attract great product talent to a company?

最后一个主题是从招聘人员的角度来看，您发现招聘人员在试图吸引优秀的产品人才加入公司时最常犯错或错过什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah, so this is one I feel especially passionate about because I do think recruiters have a bit of a reputation, and I think that it's for some good reason.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，这是我特别感兴趣的一个，因为我确实认为招聘人员有一定的声誉，而且我认为这是有充分理由的。

There's naturally people that forget that these are human beings that we're dealing with every single day that have lives, have families, have careers, or ambitions outside of their career.

人们自然会忘​​记，我们每天都在与这些人打交道，他们有生活，有家庭，有事业，或者在事业之外有野心。

Lauren Ipsen: So I think it's essential that you remember that this is another human being on the other end of things and that you should treat them with the same level of respect that you would expect to be treated.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为你必须记住，这是事物另一端的另一个人，你应该以你期望得到的同等程度的尊重来对待他们。

Lauren Ipsen: This has become even more apparent now that I have gone through some of my own recruiting cycles where I was looking for different jobs, and a transactional recruiting call just will rub you so the wrong way and will make you want to put things on your resume like I just alluded to that say things like, "Whatever at Reddit," or what have you because you just don't want to deal with it.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：这一点变得更加明显，因为我经历了自己的一些招聘周期，在这些周期中我一直在寻找不同的工作，而交易性招聘电话只会以错误的方式让你烦恼，会让你想把一些东西写在你的简历上，就像我刚才提到的那样，比如“在 Reddit 上做什么”，或者你有什么，因为你只是不想处理它。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I think you have to be a human, you have to start with a relationship, find common ground, build rapport, listen to people, like actually listen, and remember what they say.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为你必须成为一个人，你必须从一段关系开始，找到共同点，建立融洽的关系，倾听人们的声音，就像真正倾听一样，并记住他们说的话。

So if someone says, "I never want to do a crypto company," and I just am only shoving crypto companies down their throat, that's just insanely tone deaf.

因此，如果有人说，“我从来不想做一家加密货币公司”，而我只是把加密货币公司强行塞进他们的喉咙里，那简直就是疯狂的充耳不闻。

Or if they say, "I have this vest that I really want to be around for in May of next year," and I just keep hitting them up prior to that, that's just so not receptive to what they just said.

或者，如果他们说，“我有这件背心，我真的很想在明年 5 月穿着它”，而我只是在这之前不断地联系他们，那就太不接受他们刚才所说的话了。

Lauren Ipsen: Things like that, make notes if easier, because we speak to so many people all day long so it's definitely not easy to do.

劳伦·伊普森：类似这样的事情，如果更容易的话，就做笔记，因为我们整天和很多人交谈，所以这绝对不容易做到。

But I'll have a note on my calendar that John Kim's vest just happened in March, and then I'll be like, "Oh, okay, might be a good time for me to catch up." I won't say, "Congrats on the recent vest." I'll say, "You want to grab a coffee, or do you want to catch up about this?" Or, "Hey, I saw that you were speaking at this conference, love what you spoke about with regards to this." You got to find ways to connect with people outside of just shoving them into a job.

但我会在日历上注明约翰·金 (John Kim) 的背心刚刚发生在三月份，然后我会说，“哦，好吧，可能是我赶上的好时机。”我不会说：“恭喜你获得了最近的背心。”我会说，“你想喝杯咖啡，还是想了解一下这件事？”或者，“嘿，我看到你在这次会议上发言，喜欢你在这方面的发言。”你必须找到与人们建立联系的方法，而不仅仅是把他们推到工作中。

Lauren Ipsen: And so I would say something that I've learned and become very good at is starting with a foundation of relationship building, gaining trust from people, because once you have that, then people will hear you out on jobs and people will listen to you and actually trust your advice from a career direction and perspective, but that takes time to build that, and it's definitely not going to be built by just chucking things at the wall and seeing what sticks with people and seeing where you can shove them temporarily.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：所以我想说的是，我学到并变得非常擅长的东西是从建立关系的基础开始，获得人们的信任，因为一旦你有了这个，人们就会在工作上听到你的意见，人们就会听你的，并且从职业方向和角度真正信任你的建议，但这需要时间来建立，而且它绝对不会通过只是把东西扔到墙上，看看什么能粘在人们身上，看看你可以暂时把它们推到哪里来建立。

In fact, that will make them lose trust.

事实上，这会让他们失去信任。

And once you lose trust in a candidate, it's impossible to get it back.

一旦你对候选人失去信任，就不可能恢复。

Lenny: It's interesting how one of the recurring themes of our chat so far is just play the long game in every way, which takes more time.

莱尼：有趣的是，到目前为止，我们聊天中反复出现的主题之一就是以各种方式进行长期游戏，这需要更多时间。

Lenny: Kind of sucks that you have to put in all this time ahead of time before you really need to get something done, but what you keep coming back to is just that's how you end up being successful as a recruiter, as a product leader, as a hiring manager, as a founder.

莱尼：在你真正需要完成某件事之前，你必须提前投入所有这些时间，这有点糟糕，但你不断回想起这就是你最终作为招聘人员、产品负责人、招聘经理、创始人取得成功的方法。

Lauren Ipsen: A million percent.

劳伦·伊普森：百分之一百万。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And it's really easy when you've got a quota to hit and you've got people to provide for and a mortgage to just think about the numbers, but you have to play the long game because people aren't just a commodity.

当你有一个配额要达到，你有人员要供养，还有抵押贷款来考虑数字时，这真的很容易，但你必须打持久战，因为人不仅仅是一种商品。

It's so much more.

还有更多。

Lenny: And one of the perks of working with a recruiter is they have done that already for you, and so I was going to ask, when does it make sense for a founder to engage with a recruiter like yourself and when should they not?

莱尼：与招聘人员合作的好处之一是他们已经为你做到了这一点，所以我想问，创始人什么时候与像你这样的招聘人员合作有意义，什么时候不应该？

Lauren Ipsen: Engaging with recruiters sooner rather than later in a proactive way is always a positive thing.

Lauren Ipsen：积极主动地尽早与招聘人员接触总是一件积极的事情。

It's just sometimes companies aren't at the stage where they can necessarily hire a full-time recruiter because of resources and how expensive it is to bring in an exec recruiter.

只是有时，由于资源的限制以及聘请高管招聘人员的成本，公司还没有达到必须聘请全职招聘人员的阶段。

Lauren Ipsen: So having someone that you can bounce things off of in a more informal capacity, bringing in someone like a talent advisor that can help in a consultative way, those types of things, a million percent.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：因此，拥有一个可以以更非正式的方式与你沟通的人，引入像人才顾问这样的人，可以通过咨询方式提供帮助，这些类型的事情，百分之一百万。

Leaning into the venture firms that have backed you, which is a lot of what I'm doing right now, that is definitely areas in which early CEO founders should be leaning into that and trying to get as knowledgeable as possible.

向支持你的风险投资公司倾斜，这就是我现在正在做的很多事情，这绝对是早期首席执行官创始人应该倾斜的领域，并努力获得尽可能多的知识。

And then I would say typically series B feels ...

然后我会说通常 B 系列感觉......

series A, dependent on the check size, and then series B feels like a good time to bring in a couple key big players, if the company's well positioned to do so.

A 轮，取决于支票规模，然后 B 轮感觉是引进几个关键大玩家的好时机，如果公司有能力这样做的话。

Lenny: And bring in meaning full-time in-house recruiters or a firm?

莱尼：引入全职内部招聘人员或公司意味着什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Probably bring in a firm.

Lauren Ipsen：可能会引入一家公司。

Yeah.

是的。

That would be my recommendation.

这就是我的建议。

I think you can bring in one or two recruiters in the early days like seed, if it makes sense for the company and they're growing quickly, but it's all kind of case to case.

我认为你可以在早期引入一到两名招聘人员，就像种子一样，如果这对公司有意义并且他们正在快速成长，但这是具体情况而定的。

Lenny: The fact that you're kind of off the table for most founders now that you're at GC, which is a part ...

Lenny：事实上，既然你加入了 GC，大多数创始人就不再考虑你了，这是......的一部分。

And is that true?

这是真的吗？

Like you basically at this point work for General Catalyst founders, is that correct?

就像您现在基本上为 General Catalyst 创始人工作一样，这是正确的吗？

Lauren Ipsen: I am supporting all of our GC founders in the consumer and crypto portfolio.

Lauren Ipsen：我支持消费者和加密货币投资组合中的所有 GC 创始人。

That being said, I spend all day every single day networking and chatting with amazing entrepreneurs, people that could be founding a company down the road and need some advice, great people that want to help in an advising capacity.

话虽这么说，我每天都会花一整天的时间与出色的企业家、那些可能正在创办一家公司并需要一些建议的人、那些想要以建议的身份提供帮助的伟大的人进行交流和聊天。

So it is, I would say, 50% networking, 50% actual parachuting into portfolio.

所以，我想说，50% 是网络，50% 是实际投入到投资组合中。

Lenny: That's cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

I didn't know that part.

我不知道那部分。

Lenny: So outside of that, what do you suggest founders look for when they're looking for a recruiter, and the second to last question, what are signs that this is a good firm, a good recruiter?

莱尼：除此之外，您建议创始人在寻找招聘人员时要注意什么，倒数第二个问题是，有哪些迹象表明这是一家好公司、优秀的招聘人员？

Just what should you be looking for when you're looking to hire a recruiter, either in house or a firm?

当您想聘请内部或公司的招聘人员时，您应该寻找什么？

Lauren Ipsen: I think it's important to provide them with some direction and then see if they can recite it back to you.

劳伦·伊普森：我认为为他们提供一些指导很重要，然后看看他们是否可以背诵给你听。

Tell them the types of things you're looking for and then say, "Did that resonate?

告诉他们你正在寻找的东西类型，然后说：“这引起共鸣了吗？

Because I'd love to hear from you what you took away from that and what you think we should be looking for."

因为我很想听听你从中得到了什么以及你认为我们应该寻找什么。”

Lauren Ipsen: And then kind of off the bat, ask them for a couple candidate ideas.

劳伦·伊普森：然后立即向他们询问一些候选想法。

Don't give them time to just go call other people.

不要给他们时间去打电话给其他人。

In real time, ask them for some candidate ideas.

实时询问他们一些候选人的想法。

Where does their brain go?

他们的大脑去哪儿了？

Who are people they would call tomorrow on this?

明天他们会就此致电哪些人？

The more that you can get that dynamic relationship formed before you even go to search, the more you can determine whether this is someone you want to calibrate with.

在你去搜索之前，你越能形成这种动态关系，你就越能确定这个人是否是你想要校准的人。

Lauren Ipsen: So yeah, I think just putting them on the spot a little bit and asking them to show their work rather than just sending over a deck of searches that could have been done by other partners or could have just been done by other people on their team.

劳伦·伊普森：所以，是的，我认为只是让他们稍微处于现场并要求他们展示他们的工作，而不是仅仅发送一系列本来可以由其他合作伙伴完成或可以由他们团队中的其他人完成的搜索。

You want to actually understand who this person is.

你想真正了解这个人是谁。

So that first question is testing their listening skills and their ability to actually hear what you're saying and what you're looking for, and then the second is, okay, now how quickly can we get calibrated on what this profile should look like.

所以第一个问题是测试他们的听力技巧以及他们实际听到你在说什么和你在寻找什么的能力，然后第二个问题是，好吧，现在我们可以多快地校准这个配置文件应该是什么样子。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That is great advice.

这是很好的建议。

Very tactical.

很有战术性。

Any final words or wisdom before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么最后的话或智慧吗？

Lauren Ipsen: This has been awesome, by the way.

Lauren Ipsen：顺便说一下，这太棒了。

I think more generally, the advice is just treat people like human beings, build rapport, play the long game, and gain trust, and that takes time.

我认为更笼统地说，建议就是像对待人一样对待人们，建立融洽的关系，玩长远的游戏，并获得信任，这需要时间。

And so those are the most important things from a recruiting standpoint, is being able to tap people and have them feel like you genuinely have their best interest at heart and that you care about their career and life outside their career.

因此，从招聘的角度来看，最重要的事情是能够吸引人们，让他们觉得你真正把他们的最大利益放在心上，并且你关心他们的职业和职业之外的生活。

And so I think that's what makes for a really good recruiter.

所以我认为这就是成为一名真正优秀的招聘人员的原因。

Lenny: Simple advice, but often forgotten and easy to overlook.

Lenny：简单的建议，但经常被遗忘且容易被忽视。

Awesome.

惊人的。

All right.

好的。

We've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I'm going to give you six questions, whatever comes to mind, we'll go through them real fast.

我将给你们提出六个问题，无论您想到什么，我们都会快速解决它们。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Let's do it.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Lauren Ipsen: The Power of Now and You Are Here.

劳伦·伊普森：现在的力量，你就在这里。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Awesome.

惊人的。

What are favorite other podcasts that you listen to other than this one?

除了这个之外，您最喜欢听的其他播客还有哪些？

Lauren Ipsen: I mean, there's tech ones, but Your Own Backyard because I went to Cal Poly, so that one hits a little close to home.

劳伦·伊普森（Lauren Ipsen）：我的意思是，有一些科技类的，但是你自己的后院，因为我去了加州理工大学，所以这个有点离家很近。

Lenny: Wow, I haven't heard of that.

莱尼：哇，我没听说过。

Cool.

凉爽的。

What's a recent movie or TV show that you've watched that you've enjoyed?

您最近看过并且喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Lauren Ipsen: Top Gun I've watched too many times and-

劳伦·伊普森：《壮志凌云》我看了太多遍了，而且——

Lauren Ipsen: Yeah.

劳伦·伊普森：是的。

And then TV show.

然后是电视剧。

Oh, it's all trash reality, so I just can't tell you.

哦，这都是垃圾现实，所以我不能告诉你。

Lenny: I get that.

莱尼：我明白了。

I understand.

我明白。

My wife has that and she can't tell anyone.

我妻子有这个，但她不能告诉任何人。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

We'll move on, but that's great.

我们会继续前进，但这很棒。

What's a favorite ...

最喜欢什么...

Oh, this is interesting.

哦，这很有趣。

What's a favorite interview question that you like to ask or maybe you've seen someone ask?

您最喜欢问或者您见过有人问过的最喜欢的面试问题是什么？

Lauren Ipsen: I love the good strengths and weaknesses question.

Lauren Ipsen：我喜欢提出优点和缺点的问题。

I think it's really good to see how people self-analyze themselves.

我认为看到人们如何自我分析自己真的很好。

Lenny: What do you look for in their answer that's the sign that it's well answered?

莱尼：你在他们的答案中寻找什么来表明答案得到了很好的体现？

Lauren Ipsen: Honesty, authenticity.

劳伦·伊普森：诚实、真实。

Can read right through a, "Work too hard," answer or a perfectionist type answer.

可以直接阅读“工作太努力”的答案或完美主义类型的答案。

What are your weaknesses?

你的弱点是什么？

Let's talk about it.

我们来谈谈吧。

Lauren Ipsen: So that one I think is always a really good test of character.

劳伦·伊普森：所以我认为这始终是对性格的一个很好的考验。

Lenny: What are some favorite apps right now?

Lenny：现在最喜欢的应用程序有哪些？

Lauren Ipsen: I've been playing around on BeReal.

Lauren Ipsen：我一直在玩 BeReal。

I mean, I love Spotify, it's straightforward.

我的意思是，我喜欢 Spotify，它很简单。

And then I've been on Strava, I've been running, so that are the-

然后我一直在 Strava 上，我一直在跑步，所以这就是——

Lenny: That's a good combination of apps.

Lenny：这是一个很好的应用程序组合。

That's like a full life.

这就像一个完整的人生。

Lauren Ipsen: Thank you.

劳伦·伊普森：谢谢。

Thanks so much.

非常感谢。

Trying to be.

努力成为。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

Who else in the industry would you say that you most respect as a leader and a thought leader influence type person?

作为领导者和思想领袖影响力类型的人，您认为行业中还有谁是您最尊敬的？

Lauren Ipsen: My first boss out of college, Joe Suliman, is awesome.

Lauren Ipsen：我大学毕业后的第一个老板 Joe Suliman 非常棒。

He's always taught me to lead with that relationship-based approach and it's really so easy to say that you do that, but then to actually do it and live it out for the people that work for you, as well as the people that are in industry and speak of you, is something else.

他总是教我用基于关系的方法来领导，说起来很容易做到这一点，但真正做到这一点并为为你工作的人以及业内人士和谈论你的人而活是另一回事。

And so he's always taught me to do that, and I just learned a ton from him and he's just incredibly smart and in tune with what's happening in industry and makes great stances and opinions on how to navigate those types of things.

所以他总是教我这样做，我从他那里学到了很多东西，他非常聪明，并且与行业中正在发生的事情保持一致，并对如何驾驭这些类型的事情提出了很好的立场和意见。

So, he's someone that I have an immense amount of respect for.

所以，他是我非常尊敬的人。

Lenny: Sounds like an amazing person.

莱尼：听起来是个了不起的人。

Lauren, this was excellent.

劳伦，这太棒了。

I feel like this is going to be useful to so many people, product managers, founders, other recruiters, all kinds of other people.

我觉得这对很多人、产品经理、创始人、其他招聘人员以及其他各种人都有用。

Thank you so much for doing this and making the time.

非常感谢您这样做并抽出时间。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out or maybe collaborate with you and learn more?

如果人们想要联系您或与您合作并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Lauren Ipsen: Yes, absolutely.

劳伦·伊普森：是的，绝对如此。

And also, thank you.

还有，谢谢你。

This has been so much fun.

这真是太有趣了。

They can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

他们可以通过 LinkedIn 联系我。

I happen to be on that one quite a bit, so definitely can DM me there, can send me an email, and I can shoot you that over as well.

我碰巧经常参与其中，所以绝对可以在那里私信我，可以给我发一封电子邮件，我也可以给你发邮件。

And then the way they can be helpful is if there's people that they think the world of, shoot them my way.

然后他们可以提供帮助的方式是，如果他们认为世界上有人，就按照我的方式射击他们。

If they have questions around best ways to go through an interview process or how to navigate different things, please, by all means, a huge part of my job is trying to help people that are going through this for the first time.

如果他们对通过面试过程的最佳方式或如何处理不同的事情有疑问，无论如何，我工作的很大一部分就是试图帮助那些第一次经历这种情况的人。

Happy to just be a sounding board or of help in any capacity.

很高兴成为一个参谋或以任何身份提供帮助。

Lenny: So if you're an awesome product leader, you want to see what's out there, find Lauren on LinkedIn.

Lenny：所以，如果您是一位出色的产品领导者，并且想要了解现有的产品，请在 LinkedIn 上找到 Lauren。

Is that the best place to find you?

那是找到你的最佳地点吗？

Lauren Ipsen: Thanks so much.

劳伦·伊普森：非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

欣赏它。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。