Career frameworks, A/B testing, onboarding tips, selling to engineers | Laura Schaffer (Amplitude)

Laura Schaffer: ...

劳拉·谢弗：……

Like the dead of the night.

如同夜深人静。

And by that, I mean 7:00 PM or something on.

我的意思是晚上 7:00 左右。

I'm pretty sure it was a Friday.

我很确定那是星期五。

We just asked for forgiveness and put these questions into the silent flow and ran as Navy test with a small group.

我们只是请求原谅，并将这些问题放入无声的流程中，并与一小群人一起进行海军测试。

And I'm fully expecting, "Okay, this is going to hurt our numbers, but maybe it won't be so bad and I'm going to be prepared to advocate the power of this data that we're getting." And I was totally geared up thinking about written, started to write the framework for how I wanted to surface this.

我完全期待着，“好吧，这会损害我们的数字，但也许情况不会那么糟糕，我将准备好宣传我们所获得的这些数据的力量。”我完全准备好思考写作，开始编写我想要如何表达这一点的框架。

And we start to get the data for this thing.

我们开始获取这件事的数据。

I'm not kidding, an improved conversion.

我不是在开玩笑，改进的转换。

There's no personalization, nothing past it, just the questions.

没有个性化设置，没有任何其他内容，只有问题。

An improved conversion by like 5%, just improved signups.

转化率提高了 5% 左右，注册人数也有所增加。

And it was one of those like, "What?

这是其中之一，“什么？

Okay, what is going on here?"

好吧，这里发生什么事了？”

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Laura Schaffer.

今天我的嘉宾是劳拉·谢弗。

The week we recorded this chat turned out to be Laura's first week in a new gig as head of growth for Amplitude taking over for a previous legendary guest, Elena Verna.

我们录制这次聊天的那一周，是劳拉 (Laura) 作为 Amplitude 增长主管的第一周，接替了之前的传奇嘉宾埃琳娜·维娜 (Elena Verna)。

Prior to Amplitude, Laura was VP of product and growth at a company called Rapid.

在加入 Amplitude 之前，Laura 是一家名为 Rapid 的公司的产品和发展副总裁。

Before that, she spent over seven years at Twilio as Head of Growth and PM lead of the growth platform and experimentation platform at Twilio.

在此之前，她在 Twilio 工作了七年多，担任 Twilio 增长主管以及增长平台和实验平台的 PM 负责人。

In our conversation, we dig into Laura's career growth framework and the importance of carving your own path versus waiting for one to be carved for you.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了劳拉的职业发展框架，以及开辟自己的道路与等待别人为你开辟一条道路的重要性。

We also get into a bunch of tactical and surprising advice around running experiments, making decisions on gut versus data, developing your growth strategy and how to sell your product to developers.

我们还提供了一系列关于运行实验、根据直觉与数据做出决策、制定增长策略以及如何向开发人员销售产品的战术和令人惊讶的建议。

Laura has a wealth of wisdom and I learned a lot from our conversation.

劳拉拥有丰富的智慧，我从我们的谈话中学到了很多东西。

With that, I bring you Laura Schaffer after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了劳拉·谢弗 (Laura Schaffer)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by public.com who want to tell you about their new treasury accounts, which earn a 4.8% yield on your cash.

Lenny：这一集是 public.com 为您带来的，他们想向您介绍他们的新财务账户，该账户的现金收益率为 4.8%。

That is higher than a high yield savings account, while still being backed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

这高于高收益储蓄账户，同时仍得到美国政府的充分信任和信用支持。

Treasure yields are at a 15-year-high.

国债收益率创15年来新高。

But buying US treasuries is super complicated.

但购买美国国债非常复杂。

If you go to a bank or navigate an ancient government website, or at least that was the case.

如果你去银行或浏览古老的政府网站，或者至少是这样。

Now you can move your cash and the US treasuries with the flexibility of a bank account.

现在，您可以通过银行账户的灵活性转移您的现金和美国国库券。

You can access your cash whenever you want, even before your treasury bills hit maturity.

您可以随时提取现金，甚至是在国库券到期之前。

There are no hold periods, no settlement days.

没有持有期，也没有结算日。

Just a safe place to park your cash and earn a reliable yield.

只是一个安全的地方来存放您的现金并赚取可靠的收益。

Public will automatically reinvest your treasury bills at maturity so you don't have to do anything to continue growing your yield.

公众将在到期时自动对您的国库券进行再投资，因此您无需采取任何措施即可继续增加收益。

And you can manage your treasuries alongside stocks, ETFs, crypto, and any alternative assets.

您可以将您的资金与股票、ETF、加密货币和任何另类资产一起管理。

Do all your investing in one place and earn 4.8% a higher yield than a high yield savings account only with a treasury count at public.com/lenny.

将您的所有投资集中于一处，与仅在 public.com/lenny 上使用国库资金的高收益储蓄账户相比，可获得高 4.8% 的收益。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Contentful, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to waste of time building internal tools.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具。

We're trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

我们正在尝试通过一个笨拙的营销工具来运行您的实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Eppo does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue You discover.

Eppo 可以完成所有这些任务，并快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到发现的任何问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click through metrics and instead you turn north star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.

Eppo 让您超越基本的点击量指标，而是转向北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

An Eppo supports test on the front end, the back end e-mail marketing and even machine learning clients.

Eppo 支持前端、后端电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com and 10 x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，获取 E-P-P-O.com 和 10 倍的实验速度。

Lenny: Laura, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：劳拉，欢迎来到播客。

Laura Schaffer: Thanks, Lenny, it is so great to be here.

劳拉·谢弗：谢谢，莱尼，很高兴来到这里。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: It's great to have you.

莱尼：很高兴有你。

So I asked Elena Elena, Elena, I'm not even sure how to pronounce her name, maybe.

所以我问埃琳娜埃琳娜，埃琳娜，也许我什至不知道她的名字如何发音。

What is it?

它是什么？

Lenny: Elena.

莱尼：埃琳娜。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

I think I've said it wrong all the time.

我想我一直都说错了。

All this time.

一直以来。

Okay, Elena.

好的，埃琳娜。

So I asked Elena Ferna, who's a popular guest on this podcast who I should have on this podcast and you are the first person that immediately came to mind.

所以我问埃琳娜·费尔娜（Elena Ferna），她是这个播客的热门嘉宾，我应该让她来参加这个播客，你是我立即想到的第一个人。

And so I'm really excited that we're doing this and that you agreed to be on.

所以我真的很高兴我们正在这样做并且您同意参加。

Laura Schaffer: Well, she's the best and I'm really happy that she referred me because I'm just stoked to be here.

劳拉·谢弗：嗯，她是最棒的，我很高兴她推荐我，因为我很高兴来到这里。

So thanks for listening to her guidance.

所以感谢您聆听她的指导。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

And it's a cool time to be chatting.

这是聊天的好时机。

You're the newly minted head of growth at Amplitude and so congrats, first of all.

您是 Amplitude 新任命的增长主管，所以首先恭喜您。

Laura Schaffer: Thank you.

劳拉·谢弗：谢谢。

Appreciate that.

很欣赏这一点。

Yeah, this is my day two and a half here.

是的，这是我在这里的两天半。

So very .

非常。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Some companies, there's a little percentage of that shows you how many people have joined before you and I wonder what that percentage already is .

有些公司，有一小部分会显示在你之前有多少人加入，我想知道这个百分比已经是多少。

Laura Schaffer: We had that in Twilio and I got pretty, pretty high up there after a while.

Laura Schaffer：我们在 Twilio 就有过这样的经历，过了一段时间我就在那里获得了非常非常高的地位。

We had a stack rank and a spreadsheet.

我们有一个堆栈排名和一个电子表格。

Yeah, but it is funny.

是的，但这很有趣。

So wherever that thing exists in Amplitude, I am right fresh there at the very bottom.

因此，无论 Amplitude 中存在什么东西，我都对它处于最底部感到新鲜。

Lenny: So what was the number you got to Twilio?

Lenny：那么你打到 Twilio 的电话号码是多少？

Any, do you remember?

有的，你还记得吗？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, no, I was very proud to crack the top 50.

Laura Schaffer：是的，不，我很自豪能够跻身前 50 名。

That was my claim the same because as people left, you move up.

这也是我的主张，因为当人们离开时，你就会向上移动。

Right?

正确的？

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

Yeah, it's bittersweet.

是的，这是苦乐参半。

Laura Schaffer: Well, yeah, right.

劳拉·谢弗：嗯，是的，没错。

On one hand it's like, "Ooh, very cool." And one of the OGs on the other hand, it's like, "Oh my gosh, this person's .

一方面，它就像，“哦，非常酷。”另一方面，其中一位 OG 则表示，“天哪，这个人是 .

Bummer." It's a shift, but I'm excited about it for sure.

真糟糕。”这是一个转变，但我确实对此感到兴奋。

Lenny: So you have this new exciting role and I thought it'd be fun to start to chat about career growth and just how you think about career growth.

莱尼：所以你有这个令人兴奋的新角色，我认为开始谈论职业发展以及你如何看待职业发展会很有趣。

I know you have a framework of how you think about your own career growth and clearly it's worked out, so I'm curious to hear about it and see how it could be helpful to folks that are listening.

我知道你有一个关于如何看待自己职业发展的框架，并且显然它已经制定出来了，所以我很想听听它，看看它对正在倾听的人有什么帮助。

So yeah, can you just tell us about how you think about career growth?

那么，您能告诉我们您对职业发展的看法吗？

Laura Schaffer: Career growth is definitely not a straight lineup, but there's definitely some frameworks and methods that have worked really well for me.

Laura Schaffer：职业发展绝对不是一个直线，但肯定有一些框架和方法对我来说非常有效。

And I think to dive into it, it's first good to just talk about the one that I most typically see people use to try to grow their career and why that can be a little problematic, which is that I see most people try to work really hard the job that they have within the role that they have at a company.

我认为，要深入探讨这个问题，首先最好谈谈我最常看到人们用来尝试发展职业生涯的方式，以及为什么这可能会有点问题，那就是我看到大多数人都试图在他们在公司的角色中努力工作。

Do whatever you can to grow there, show your manager all these things.

尽你所能在那里成长，向你的经理展示所有这些东西。

I see people keep spreadsheets, it wins.

我看到人们保留电子表格，它获胜了。

So it can come up with performance reviews.

所以它可以提出绩效评估。

Maybe you try to get better advocating for yourself, maybe try to get peers to notice or your manager's peers.

也许你试图更好地为自己辩护，也许试图让同事或你的经理的同事注意到。

And that's all good.

这一切都很好。

It's all stuff.

都是东西。

Laura Schaffer: But the problem with it is that you're limited to what your manager's ability is to advocate for you, to promote you.

劳拉·谢弗：但问题是，你的经理为你辩护、晋升的能力有限。

And you're also limited by the explicit trajectory of your role at that company and where the there's room for that or not at the company.

而且你还受到你在该公司的角色的明确轨迹以及公司是否有空间的限制。

And then often that perception can sometimes be a little bit in contrast to what your perception is.

通常，这种看法有时可能与您的看法有点相反。

And also other things that happen, your manager leaves and then you have to restart with someone else.

还有其他事情发生，你的经理离开，然后你必须与其他人重新开始。

So the method that I use tries to take that power back a little bit.

所以我使用的方法试图稍微收回这种力量。

And something that I learned really early on in my career, I was very lucky to learn by accident, was at a company called Bandwidth, which is my first real job.

我在职业生涯早期就学到了一些东西，我非常幸运地偶然学到了一些东西，那就是在一家名为 Bandwidth 的公司，这是我的第一份真正的工作。

And Bandwidth is now a public company and they've done all kinds of crazy amazing things.

Bandwidth 现在是一家上市公司，他们做了各种疯狂而令人惊奇的事情。

Laura Schaffer: But I joined when it was just 50 people and I actually joined in sales and I was just hungry to make it succeed and grow and bright eyes and everything, first real job.

Laura Schaffer：但是我加入的时候公司只有 50 个人，我实际上是从事销售工作的，我只是渴望让它成功、成长、明亮的眼睛等等，这是第一份真正的工作。

But I realized after a few months of being in sales that I was often repeating the same thing over again, using the same thing to sell over and over again.

但从事销售几个月后我意识到，我经常重复同样的事情，用同样的东西一遍又一遍地销售。

And it's like, gosh, this isn't ideal for the customer because call me and ask these questions and get these answers and all this stuff.

就像，天哪，这对客户来说并不理想，因为打电话给我问这些问题并得到这些答案和所有这些东西。

And it's not ideal for the company because they're paying commission on this every time.

这对公司来说并不理想，因为他们每次都要为此支付佣金。

That's not going to be efficient for our growth.

这对我们的增长不会有效率。

And because we were small, I was able to catch our GM and I was just like, "Hey, I've noticed this pattern where I'm repeating things over and over again and they're asking the same thing.

因为我们很小，所以我能够抓住我们的总经理，我就像是，“嘿，我注意到这种模式，我一遍又一遍地重复事情，而他们却问同样的事情。

Laura Schaffer: I think we should put that online.

Laura Schaffer：我认为我们应该把它放到网上。

I think we should make that available so they can just see it and then buy it," because we had an online checkout process.

我认为我们应该提供它，以便他们可以看到它然后购买它，”因为我们有一个在线结账流程。

And I was expecting him to be like, "Oh, well, I know it's important but for this another, we need to do it this way, and obviously you've thought all about it." And thinking, "Oh, I'm going to come in this new person, he's just going to help me understand what I'm missing here." There's a little bit of that that I was expecting.

我期待他会说，“哦，好吧，我知道这很重要，但对于另一个，我们需要这样做，显然你已经考虑过了。”并想，“哦，我要加入这个新人，他只会帮助我理解我在这里缺少的东西。”有一点是我所期待的。

And he goes, "Wait a minute, tell me more about that.

他说：“等一下，告诉我更多相关信息。

What do you mean?" And by the end of the conversation he was like, "Hey, why don't you go do that?

你什么意思？”谈话结束时，他说：“嘿，你为什么不去做呢？

Why don't you go build that experience?

你为什么不去建立这种体验呢？

Why don't you put that stuff in a self-serve flow?"

为什么不把这些东西放到自助服务流程中呢？”

Laura Schaffer: And we called it e-commerce manager and it was like got a growth before this growth, this is like 2010.

Laura Schaffer：我们称之为电子商务经理，在增长之前就好像有增长，就像 2010 年一样。

And that moved me into a totally new position.

这让我进入了一个全新的职位。

And the main learning that I had from that was, which really took life at Twilio and absolutely worked for me there and I'm happy to talk about that too.

我从中学到的主要知识是，这确实改变了 Twilio 的生活，并且绝对对我有用，我也很高兴谈论这一点。

But the core that learning was, your executive team and executive teams at companies are often very sharp, but the nature of their day-to-day just does not link them with customers.

但学习的核心是，你的执行团队和公司的执行团队通常非常敏锐，但他们的日常性质并没有将他们与客户联系起来。

Laura Schaffer: And that means that over time, especially as a company grows, they often lose access to some of the best insights and in the heartbeat of the people who they're providing value to in contrast to folks that are closer to the problem.

劳拉·谢弗：这意味着随着时间的推移，尤其是随着公司的发展，他们往往会失去一些最好的见解，也无法获得他们所提供价值的人的心跳，而不是更接近问题的人。

And so that means that your superpower is in really pulling those insights in and bringing them to life, staying close to the customer.

因此，这意味着您的超能力在于真正吸收这些见解并将其变为现实，并与客户保持密切联系。

There's not a single leader or executive that isn't going to be stoked to hear about valuable customer insights that highlight problems they might not be seeing.

没有一个领导者或高管在听到有价值的客户见解时会感到兴奋，这些见解强调了他们可能没有看到的问题。

And there's a lot of those.

还有很多这样的。

So especially when they align to North Star metrics, those ones are the powerful ones.

因此，特别是当它们与北极星指标保持一致时，这些指标就是强大的指标。

That was the way that I grew my career at Phil and I'm happy to share that journey too.

这就是我在菲尔发展职业生涯的方式，我也很高兴分享这段旅程。

Lenny: Yeah, it'd actually be cool to hear maybe another example of that.

莱尼：是的，如果能听到另一个例子，那就太好了。

But I think an interesting thing that comes up for me here is sometimes you may have an awesome idea and it may not immediately happen.

但我认为这里出现的一件有趣的事情是，有时你可能有一个很棒的想法，但它可能不会立即发生。

It may not be like, yes or let's move on, that's right, immediately.

它可能不会像，是的，或者让我们继续前进，是的，立即。

And I think it's important to just recognize they're not going to follow all your ideas, but they're always looking for better ideas.

我认为重要的是要认识到他们不会遵循你的所有想法，但他们总是在寻找更好的想法。

And to your point, they may not have the information that will lead to an idea that you will have because you're on the ground dealing with real problems, day-to-day.

就您而言，他们可能没有信息来产生您所拥有的想法，因为您每天都在实地处理实际问题。

So I think it's important to recognize you're not going to always get your way and that's normal.

所以我认为重要的是要认识到你不会总是如愿以偿，这是正常的。

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, totally.

劳拉·谢弗：是的，完全可以。

And it's almost like building up your individual brand a little bit.

这几乎就像建立你的个人品牌一样。

And I think one of the most powerful and accessible ways is learning about your customers.

我认为最有效、最容易实现的方法之一就是了解您的客户。

There's always those people at companies who's like, "Oh, well, she just knows our customers or he just knows our customers, they just know our customers.

公司里总有一些人会说，“哦，好吧，她只了解我们的客户，或者他只了解我们的客户，他们只了解我们的客户。

They just know." And it's like, "Well, how?" "They just know.

他们只是知道。”就像，“嗯，怎么样？” “他们只是知道。

Let's ask that person.

我们去问问那个人吧。

Let's get their feedback." And those people often have a good amount of brand recognition of powers within the company and they're often thought of when the company needs to do something new or different or if someone is hiring, maybe they're thinking about that person for a cross team thing.

让我们听听他们的反馈。”这些人通常在公司内部拥有很高的品牌知名度，当公司需要做一些新的或不同的事情或者有人正在招聘时，他们经常会被想到，也许他们会考虑那个人来处理跨团队的事情。

Laura Schaffer: So it's one of the ways that you can build that brand.

Laura Schaffer：所以这是建立该品牌的方法之一。

And again, I think it's a sweet spot because it's something that is very valuable to everyone, all the way up to the most senior leaders, which we can talk about here in a minute.

再说一次，我认为这是一个最佳点，因为这对每个人都非常有价值，一直到最高层领导，我们稍后可以在这里讨论。

And so it's going to be valuable for you in a valuable tool no matter where you're at in your career.

因此，无论您处于职业生涯的哪个阶段，它都是一个有价值的工具，对您来说很有价值。

And that's not always an immediate payoff, but it often does give you a trajectory outside of just your role and just your manager.

这并不总是立竿见影的回报，但它通常确实会给你一个超越你的角色和你的经理的轨迹。

It gives you something a little bit broader.

它给你一些更广泛的东西。

Lenny: So maybe a simple way of describing to mirror back what you're saying is carve your own path.

莱尼：也许一个简单的描述方式可以反映你所说的话，那就是开辟你自己的道路。

Don't necessarily assume your managers will give you the path that makes most sense for you or even give you the biggest opportunity.

不一定要假设你的经理会给你最适合你的道路，甚至会给你最大的机会。

Just propose, "Hey, I think this might be a better opportunity and I'd love to pursue it." I'd love to hear the Twilio example if that's generally-

只需提出：“嘿，我认为这可能是一个更好的机会，我很乐意追求它。”我很想听听 Twilio 的例子，如果这通常是-

Laura Schaffer: Yeah.

劳拉·谢弗：是的。

So when I joined Twilio, there was no growth team at all, not even a breath of it.

所以当我加入 Twilio 时，根本就没有增长团队，连一丝气息都没有。

I joined in product marketing and I was leading our product marketing for our messaging lines, but I followed the same guy that I just mentioned.

我加入了产品营销，并领导了我们的消息传递产品营销，但我跟随了我刚才提到的同一个人。

I made it my own personal policy to like, hey, I'm going to do my job.

我把自己的个人政策定为：嘿，我要做我的工作。

And I'm going to do well, I'm going to keep notes of things I'm doing well and all that stuff because it's good, but I'm also going to get to know our customers.

我会做得很好，我会记下我做得很好的事情以及所有这些事情，因为它很好，但我也会了解我们的客户。

And I'm going to get to know our customers really well and I'm going to pay attention when I'm connecting with them, not just about the space I'm in, but just broadly what are some of the pain points and things they're articulating that are relevant to the business and what we're trying to get done.

我将非常了解我们的客户，当我与他们联系时，我会注意，不仅仅是我所处的空间，而是广泛地关注他们所阐述的与业务和我们想要完成的事情相关的一些痛点和事情。

Laura Schaffer: And one of the things that came up was that users were struggling and folks were struggling to get started and use Twilio.

Laura Schaffer：出现的问题之一是用户和人们都在努力开始使用 Twilio。

And that contrasted so deeply to some of the things that our executive team was saying and had high conviction in our company had high conviction, which is that Twilio was so easy to use.

这与我们的执行团队所说的一些事情形成了鲜明的对比，我们公司坚信 Twilio 非常易于使用。

In fact, it was top three things about Twilio that we were really trying to get out of their brand.

事实上，我们真正想摆脱 Twilio 品牌的三大因素。

Were so easy.

太容易了。

Developers love us, they say we're so easy.

开发人员喜欢我们，他们说我们很容易。

And there were tweets coming all the time, developers saying like, "Oh my gosh, they got started in a couple of minutes." So there's all these things that made that compound and made that conviction stick.

一直都有推文出现，开发人员说，“天哪，他们在几分钟内就开始了。”因此，所有这些因素使这种情况变得更加复杂，并使这种信念更加坚定。

But as I was talking to customers, I was hearing a very different story and it made sense as we were penetrating new markets, adding more products, we were adding complexity and we were pulling in folks who were a little bit less motivated and those things contributed to people saying this is difficult.

但当我与客户交谈时，我听到了一个非常不同的故事，这是有道理的，因为我们正在渗透新市场，添加更多产品，我们增加了复杂性，我们吸引了那些动力不足的人，这些事情促使人们说这很困难。

Laura Schaffer: And so at the time, this wasn't a 50 person in where I could just go to the floor and go to someone and be like, "Hey, there's this thing I heard about, I think we should do something." But there was another tactic that I could take, and I just started sharing a voice of the customer report.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：当时，这不是一个 50 人的会议，我可以走到地板上，去找某人说，“嘿，我听说了这件事，我认为我们应该做点什么。”但我可以采取另一种策略，我刚刚开始分享客户报告的声音。

I started sharing my insights, started writing down and just sharing them.

我开始分享我的见解，开始写下来并分享它们。

And it became with digest and eventually people were like, "Hey, can you share it with me?

它变成了摘要，最终人们会说，“嘿，你能和我分享吗？

Can you share with me?

你能和我分享一下吗？

Can you get on your list?

你能进入你的名单吗？

Can share with me?" And this was in a few months of me joining, I was doing this.

可以分享给我吗？”这是在我加入后的几个月内，我正在做的事情。

And then that turned into, "Hey, you should host a quarterly voice to the customer session or for all of product." And this was a request that was coming from some of the senior leaders at the company.

然后就变成了，“嘿，你应该每季度为客户会议或所有产品举办一次声音。”这是公司一些高级领导提出的要求。

Laura Schaffer: And when our Jeff Lawson is our CEO at the time heard about, he started attending too.

劳拉·谢弗：当听说我们的杰夫·劳森是我们当时的首席执行官时，他也开始参加。

So now in the session I started pulling in other people's insights too, because now they had a forum for this.

所以现在在会议上我也开始吸收其他人的见解，因为现在他们有一个论坛。

I could do that and have people send that to me and I could compile it and all of these things.

我可以做到这一点，让人们将其发送给我，我可以编译它以及所有这些东西。

So then this established me as that person who knows about the customer even after short tenure.

因此，这使我成为即使在短暂任职后也了解客户的人。

And then when came time to do annual planning that year, and I joined in 2014 at the end, so this is 2015, I pitched this idea, "Hey, we think that it's easy.

然后到了那一年做年度计划的时候，我最后是2014年加入的，所以这是2015年，我提出了这个想法，“嘿，我们认为这很容易。

It is not.

事实并非如此。

Here's data that I have, the information that I have and I think that we need to start a growth team here and that needs to be a core focus." And I was able to bring in a really critical partner to that and other folks who could support that because I had built up some of that trust.

这是我所掌握的数据，我所掌握的信息，我认为我们需要在这里组建一个增长团队，这需要成为核心焦点。”我能够引入一个非常重要的合作伙伴以及其他可以支持这一点的人，因为我已经建立了一些信任。

Laura Schaffer: So by the time I was making that pitch, I had someone on Andre Crow who was the seventh hire at Twilio and got to number three on that spreadsheet or whatever who was really close to the CEO being like, "Yeah, we desperately need this." I'm seeing this.

Laura Schaffer：当我进行推销时，我发现 Andre Crow 是 Twilio 的第七位员工，在电子表格中排名第三，或者其他与首席执行官关系密切的人，他说：“是的，我们迫切需要这个。”我正在看到这个。

He led a website, he basically created the Twilio brand and he led all the website stuff and he is like, "Yeah, we definitely need this." So not only did I have that little bit of trust from the executive team, but I also had folks who were just trusted on their own advocating and supporting this that I was doing.

他领导了一个网站，他基本上创建了 Twilio 品牌，他领导了所有网站内容，他说，“是的，我们绝对需要这个。”因此，我不仅得到了执行团队的一点信任，而且还得到了那些因为自己倡导和支持我正在做的事情而受到信任的人。

And so it was approved just almost very easily.

所以它几乎很容易就获得了批准。

I put stuff together for it, but it was the meeting before the meeting had already been done by this other thing.

我为此准备了一些东西，但在会议之前的会议已经被其他事情完成了。

So it helped me create the growth engineering, growth product team at Twilio.

因此，它帮助我在 Twilio 创建了增长工程和增长产品团队。

Lenny: I love just how proactive your advice is here.

莱尼：我喜欢你在这里提出的积极主动的建议。

There's a lot of people that don't do well and then just like, "Oh, I never had the opportunity or I kept got looked over all this time." And I love that there's all this just like, here's things you can be doing to get in front of people to provide value, to just create opportunity for yourself.

有很多人做得不好，然后就说，“哦，我从来没有机会，或者我一直受到关注。”我喜欢这一切，就像你可以做这些事情来在人们面前提供价值，为自己创造机会。

Any other advice along the lines of just like, here's the things you could do for yourself versus waiting for someone to come and give you opportunity?

还有其他建议吗，比如，你可以为自己做这些事情，而不是等待别人来给你机会？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, I think that's the most easily actual because to do all of our jobs, we need to know customers, we need to know about customer insights, product, we need to know.

劳拉·谢弗：是的，我认为这是最容易实现的，因为为了完成我们所有的工作，我们需要了解客户，我们需要了解客户的见解，我们需要了解产品。

But then also customer facing teams, social, those want to crack into product.

但也有面向客户的团队、社交团队，以及那些想要进入产品领域的团队。

Your insights are extremely valuable.

您的见解非常有价值。

You're talking to customers every day more about their problems and their pain than a lot of other people do.

与其他许多人相比，您每天与客户谈论的问题和痛苦更多。

And so that is by far and away to me the most powerful and accessible by anyone in any role in any space.

因此，对我来说，这无疑是最强大、最容易被任何空间、任何角色的人所接受的。

But I'll also say that that broader concept of just, hey, there's things that, and things of value that you know that others can benefit from at your company and building your brand as someone that is supportive, smart, creative, able to solve problems, make sure that you're sharing that.

但我还要说的是，更广泛的概念是，嘿，你知道其他人可以从你的公司中受益，并将你的品牌打造为一个支持性的、聪明的、有创造力的、能够解决问题的人，确保你在分享这些东西。

And so maybe you're really freaking good at communicating with brevity.

所以也许你真的非常擅长简洁的沟通。

Laura Schaffer: I suck at that by the way.

Laura Schaffer：顺便说一句，我对此很不满意。

So more powered anyone that can do that, I'm actively working on it.

因此，任何能够做到这一点的人都更有能力，我正在积极努力。

So share that.

所以分享一下。

Go to your general Slack channel or whatever and just be like, "Hey, just wrote some tips for how to do it, some ways that I am good at this." And those kinds of things can really go a long way towards people starting to view you as an SME and not just the space that you're in, but in broader areas.

转到你的 Slack 通用频道或其他频道，然后说：“嘿，刚刚写了一些关于如何做到这一点的提示，以及我擅长的一些方法。”这些事情确实可以让人们开始将您视为中小企业，而不仅仅是您所在的领域，而是更广泛的领域。

And that can always present open doors for you and other people are looking up to you and seeing you, someone who's strong in ways outside of just the role that you're in.

这总是为你敞开大门，其他人会尊敬你并看到你，一个在你所扮演的角色之外在其他方面都很强大的人。

Lenny: SME is a Subject Matter Expert, is that right?

Lenny：SME 是主题专家，对吗？

Laura Schaffer: Yes.

劳拉·谢弗：是的。

Thank you for unpacking my acronyms.

感谢您解开我的缩写词。

That's another thing that I am actively working on.

这是我正在积极努力的另一件事。

Lenny: I got you.

莱尼：我找到你了。

I'll be on the lookout.

我会留意的。

Lenny: Maybe one last question along these lines is do you have any advice for framing the proposal, framing an opportunity to your manager, higher ups that you see has worked best broadly?

莱尼：也许最后一个问题是，您对制定提案、为您的经理、上级提供您认为最有效的机会有什么建议吗？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah.

劳拉·谢弗：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And one thing I want to say too is with this stuff, I don't think that it necessarily does counter to what your manager's doing.

我还想说的一件事是，对于这些东西，我认为它不一定与你的经理所做的事情相反。

It's more supporting them.

更是对他们的支持。

I've done this stuff and then it's helped my manager promote me.

我做了这些事情，然后它帮助我的经理提升了我。

So it's not necessarily, "Oh, we'll do this if your manager's failing you." Or they are not the boarding you or they can't support you.

因此，不一定是“哦，如果你的经理让你失望了，我们就会这么做。”或者他们不是你的寄宿者，或者他们无法支持你。

It's more like do this because this is going to be an accelerator for yourself irrespective of your manager.

这样做更像是因为无论你的经理是谁，这都将成为你自己的加速器。

Laura Schaffer: But then also it'll be an accelerator for your manager in supporting you because one of the things that comes into play a lot when managers figure out promotions and doing those things is they'll sit in a room, often calibrations and with a bunch of people, and it makes it a lot easier when those people have had some access or exposure or whatever to you in a positive light.

劳拉·谢弗：但这也将成为你的经理支持你的加速器，因为当经理们考虑晋升并做这些事情时，最重要的事情之一就是他们会坐在一个房间里，经常与一群人一起校准，当这些人从积极的角度对你有一些接触或接触或其他任何东西时，这会让事情变得容易得多。

So these things can all run with your manager and not against, but it's just another way of you taking back the ability to build that momentum instead of relying on all of that going through one single other person.

因此，这些事情都可以与你的经理一起进行，而不是反对，但这只是你收回建立这种动力的能力的另一种方式，而不是依赖于其他人的所有这些。

Lenny: And what I like about your second example is you just did it.

莱尼：我喜欢你的第二个例子，因为你刚刚做到了。

You just started doing that tenant report for the company.

您刚刚开始为公司做租户报告。

It wasn't like, "Hey, I have a proposal, here's what I think you should do.

这并不是说，“嘿，我有一个建议，这就是我认为你应该做的。

Should we do it?"

我们应该这样做吗？”

Lenny: It's just like, yeah, just do it.

莱尼：就像，是的，就这么做吧。

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, ungate your knowledge I think is the buzzword that I'm hearing.

Laura Schaffer：是的，打开你的知识大门，我认为这是我听到的流行词。

Laura Schaffer: I think that's an Elena, see how many times we can bring her up.

劳拉·谢弗：我想那是埃琳娜，看看我们能提起她多少次。

But you can do that within your own company.

但您可以在自己的公司内做到这一点。

Everybody is skilled at things that they aren't explicit to their role or their space.

每个人都擅长做一些他们不明确自己的角色或空间的事情。

And I think that ungating that opens opportunities.

我认为解除限制会带来机遇。

And if you're not sure, then go to my favorite go-to, which is talk to customers, get insights.

如果您不确定，请转到我最喜欢的地方，即与客户交谈，获取见解。

Those are incredibly valuable.

这些都是非常有价值的。

So rarely do people share those when they find them.

因此，人们在发现这些内容时很少会分享。

So be the person that does that.

因此，成为这样做的人。

Lenny: Another area I want to chat about is experimentation and growth and data, which makes sense if strong perspectives is on being the new head of growth amplitude.

莱尼：我想谈论的另一个领域是实验、增长和数据，如果强烈的观点是成为增长幅度的新负责人，那么这是有意义的。

So maybe we start with experimentation.

所以也许我们从实验开始。

You mentioned that there's a really interesting surprising result in an experiment you ran at Twilio that maybe changed your perspective on experimentation and what you think might work and not work.

您提到您在 Twilio 进行的一项实验中有一个非常有趣、令人惊讶的结果，这可能会改变您对实验以及您认为哪些可能有效、哪些无效的看法。

Laura Schaffer: A hundred percent.

劳拉·谢弗：百分之一百。

Yeah, I'm through a fortune of two mind-blowing experiments that really shifted the way that I think about growth.

是的，我经历了两次令人兴奋的实验，这确实改变了我对增长的看法。

So one of them, one of my favorite ones happened very early on at Twilio.

其中之一，我最喜欢的之一发生在 Twilio 的早期。

So after I created this growth team, one of the things that I saw as to me an issue was that under signup flow, we just asked people for a username and an e-mail, like a password, and that was it.

因此，在我创建了这个增长团队之后，我发现的一个问题是，在注册流程中，我们只是要求人们提供用户名和电子邮件（例如密码），仅此而已。

And that's actually relatively common at the time.

这在当时其实是比较常见的。

This is a while ago now, everybody is .

这是不久前的事了，每个人都是。

But we didn't, and actually there was a lot of existing conviction around that.

但我们没有，而且实际上对此有很多现有的信念。

I was like, "Hey, we retarding developers.

我当时想，“嘿，我们阻碍了开发人员。

Developers, they just want to do, they just want to get their hands on things.

开发人员，他们只是想做，他们只是想得到东西。

Don't put anything in their way, it's going to be disastrous.

不要让任何东西妨碍他们，这将是灾难性的。

We don't want any shenanigans here with these folks, let's just let them in the gates."

我们不想与这些人发生任何恶作剧，就让他们进来吧。”

Laura Schaffer: But to me this was a really big assumption to make and a very costly one.

Laura Schaffer：但对我来说，这是一个非常大的假设，而且成本非常高。

It's like, okay, if that's the case, we're not going to know anything about anyone.

就像，好吧，如果是这样的话，我们就不会了解任何人的任何事情。

And we didn't know who was signing up, we didn't know what they wanted to do.

我们不知道谁在报名，我们不知道他们想做什么。

And that hurt our ability to understand how people were performing from a quantitative perspective.

这损害了我们从定量角度理解人们表现的能力。

We were a little bit lost with prioritization.

我们对优先顺序有点迷失。

There's a number of implications here, but it's obviously a very contentious space.

这里有很多含义，但这显然是一个非常有争议的领域。

So this is the very first thing that I did and the first experiment that I ran.

所以这是我做的第一件事，也是我进行的第一个实验。

I did some research to understand say, okay, what are the most important questions to answer?

我做了一些研究来了解，好吧，需要回答的最重要的问题是什么？

What would I do really, really need to know?

我真正需要知道什么？

And it was stuff like what language are you coding in, what's your use case?

比如你用什么语言编码，你的用例是什么？

What product you want to use?

您想使用什么产品？

Laura Schaffer: And then there's one around, are you developer at all or were you use something else?

Laura Schaffer：然后还有一个问题，你到底是开发人员还是使用了其他东西？

Because there is rumors that we're having, not just developers sign up, which is this whole other interesting story.

因为有传言说我们不仅仅是开发人员注册，这是另一个有趣的故事。

And I think of these questions that would also potentially be things that our developers signing up would understand why we're asking that it would feel natural.

我认为这些问题也可能是我们签约的开发人员会理解为什么我们提出这样的问题，这感觉很自然。

But anyway, again, adding anything to the signup was very contentious, but I really just wanted to get a little bit of data on it.

但无论如何，在注册中添加任何内容都是非常有争议的，但我真的只是想获得一些有关它的数据。

So I wanted to run a test.

所以我想进行一个测试。

I didn't have a team, I didn't have an engineering team yet and none of that stuff had built out.

我还没有团队，还没有工程团队，这些东西都还没有建成。

It was just me, myself and I.

只有我、我自己和我。

But like I said, I had started to build a little bit of trust and , Andre, who I mentioned earlier who, because he was early employee and he had access to everything, one of those people, and he also was supportive of this and had similar haunches.

但就像我说的，我已经开始建立一点信任，安德烈，我之前提到过，因为他是早期员工，他可以接触到一切，其中之一，他也支持这一点，并且有类似的想法。

Laura Schaffer: And so like the dead of the night, and by that, I mean 7:00 PM or something, I'm pretty sure it was a Friday.

Laura Schaffer：就像夜深人静时那样，我的意思是晚上 7:00 左右，我很确定那是星期五。

We just asked for forgiveness and put these questions into the signup flow and ran as Navy test with a small group.

我们只是请求原谅，并将这些问题放入注册流程中，并与一小群人一起进行海军测试。

And I'm fully expecting, "Okay, this is going to hurt our numbers, but maybe it won't be so bad and I'm going to be prepared to advocate the power of this data that we're getting." I was totally thinking with written...

我完全期待着，“好吧，这会损害我们的数字，但也许情况不会那么糟糕，我将准备好宣传我们所获得的这些数据的力量。”我完全在想写...

Started to write the framework for how I wanted to surface this.

开始编写我想要如何表达这一点的框架。

And we start to get the data for this thing.

我们开始获取这件事的数据。

I'm not kidding, an improved conversion.

我不是在开玩笑，改进的转换。

There's no personalization, nothing past it, just the questions.

没有个性化设置，没有任何其他内容，只有问题。

It improved conversion by 5%, just improved signups.

它提高了 5% 的转化率，只是提高了注册量。

And it was one of those like, "What?

这是其中之一，“什么？

Okay, what is going on here?" And I actually dug into it, and what I found from just talking to a few customers once through the flow, I'm just learning about about it.

好吧，这里发生什么事了？”我实际上深入研究了它，通过与几个客户交谈一次，我发现，我只是在了解它。

Laura Schaffer: It was actually for folks, it was comforting.

Laura Schaffer：这实际上是为了人们，这很令人安慰。

When you think about it, when users are signing up for your product for the very first time, it's new.

想想看，当用户第一次注册您的产品时，它是新的。

This is new, that means it's scary.

这是新的，这意味着它很可怕。

They're expecting it to be difficult.

他们预计这会很困难。

They're anticipating that there's going to be friction and challenges and that they're not going to figure it out.

他们预计将会出现摩擦和挑战，但他们不会解决这个问题。

Almost like looking for the bogeyman.

几乎就像寻找妖怪一样。

And that's the headspace.

这就是顶部空间。

It's often the headspace that any of us are in when we're doing something new for the first time like ooh, this could be very challenging.

当我们第一次做一些新的事情时，这通常是我们任何人都会遇到的问题，比如哦，这可能非常具有挑战性。

And so by putting in these questions it's like, what's your language?

因此，通过提出这些问题，你会问，你的语言是什么？

It's like, "Oh, I do.

就像，“哦，我愿意。

I code a JavaScript and I can select that." Well, that's something I'm uncomfortable with.

我编写了 JavaScript，并且可以选择它。”嗯，这是我感到不舒服的事情。

That would make my journey easier.

这会让我的旅程变得更加轻松。

Like "Yeah, bingo.

就像“是的，宾果游戏。

That's my use case.

这就是我的用例。

Okay, I'm in the right place here."

好吧，我来对地方了。”

Laura Schaffer: It was actually giving folks something comforting and challenging the notion that this was going to be difficult, just the questions because it was aligning to some of the things that they were organically thinking about, which is what if they don't support my language?

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：这实际上给了人们一些安慰和挑战，让他们意识到这将是困难的，只是提出问题，因为它与他们有机地思考的一些事情是一致的，如果他们不支持我的语言怎么办？

Or can I even do this use case I want to do?

或者我什至可以做我想做的这个用例吗？

And so it was just a really interesting, the takeaway for me for this, the really interest takeaway was the psyche of the user is so, so critical.

所以这真的很有趣，对我来说，真正有趣的收获是用户的心理是如此、如此关键。

That's just as important as understanding your product and the broader market you're applying to and all those things.

这与了解您的产品和您所申请的更广泛的市场以及所有这些事情一样重要。

Just the psyche of users, new people doing things for the first time in your user flow, understanding that is powerful.

只是用户的心理，新人第一次在你的用户流程中做事，理解这一点是强大的。

And the simple catchy thing I say is that ultimately the learning here is, bad friction is bad, and good friction is good.

我说的简单而朗朗上口的事情是，最终这里的学习是，坏的摩擦是坏的，好的摩擦是好的。

There's no such thing as it being simple.

没有一件事情是简单的。

It's just all friction is bad, which is what I had assumed going into this.

所有的摩擦都是不好的，这就是我对此的假设。

Lenny: I love that you were new to Twilio and you just year-load an experiment to production.

Lenny：我喜欢你是 Twilio 的新手，而且你只需一年就将实验加载到生产中。

Laura Schaffer: It ended up being very helpful for everyone.

Laura Schaffer：它最终对每个人都非常有帮助。

I shared the insights from it and all these things.

我分享了从中得到的见解以及所有这些事情。

I've shared the .

我已经分享了.

Laura Schaffer: But for sure, use such processes with caution for sure.

Laura Schaffer：但可以肯定的是，请务必谨慎使用此类流程。

Yeah.

是的。

Laura Schaffer: That the right way to do advocating for the engineers here is the right way to make any changes in production is through or with the approval of engineering, but it was the right move overall and definitely helped business, so yeah.

Laura Schaffer：在这里为工程师倡导的正确方法是通过工程或在工程批准的情况下对生产进行任何更改，但总体而言这是正确的举措，并且肯定对业务有所帮助，所以是的。

Lenny: Yeah, I love it.

莱尼：是的，我喜欢它。

No, that's great.

不，那太好了。

I like that move.

我喜欢那个动作。

I think we need more of that probably.

我认为我们可能需要更多这样的东西。

I want to dig into what you actually...

我想深入了解你实际上...

So what is it you changed, you added how many questions and then what were the questions?

那么你改变了什么，你添加了多少问题，然后问题是什么？

Laura Schaffer: There was a question around what language are you coding in?

Laura Schaffer：有人问你用什么语言编码？

And then as an option to that, it was like, "Oh, I'm actually not coding, I'm not a developer." So for us, it actually gave us two really, really interesting data points.

然后作为一种选择，就像是，“哦，我实际上不是在编码，我不是开发人员。”所以对我们来说，它实际上给了我们两个非常非常有趣的数据点。

One was how many developers versus people who are not coding or in our flow?

一是有多少开发人员与不编码或不参与我们流程的人相比？

And then what language of the coding, which was massively helpful not just for growth and onboarding, but our documentation team, dos team.

然后是哪种编码语言，这不仅对成长和入职有很大帮助，而且对我们的文档团队、dos 团队也有很大帮助。

Would that end up being a critical way for us to gauge trends over time and catch things before whatever reports would come out at the end of the year, what people are doing, you start to see it.

这是否会成为我们衡量一段时间内的趋势并在年底发布任何报告之前捕捉事物的关键方式，人们在做什么，你开始看到它。

And then also product.

然后还有产品。

What product are you interested in using?

您有兴趣使用什么产品？

That was very critical for knowing the basics of how to organize someone's onboarding.

这对于了解如何组织某人入职的基础知识非常重要。

Are you doing SMS?

你在做短信吗？

You're doing voice?

你是做语音的吗？

To 281 or whatever.

到281或其他什么。

And then use case in use cases, you're doing a appointment reminders or are you doing a autoresponder or are you doing anonymous communications for a dating app or something.

然后用例中的用例，您正在做约会提醒，或者您正在做自动回复，或者您正在为约会应用程序或其他东西进行匿名通信。

Right?

正确的？

So those were the very first questions.

这些是第一个问题。

Lenny: Wow, okay.

莱尼：哇，好吧。

So it was four dropdown questions and that increased conversion.

所以这是四个下拉问题，这增加了转化率。

I love these examples where friction and increased conversion...

我喜欢这些摩擦和增加转化的例子......

There's so few of them.

他们的数量太少了

You hear about this could work and it's rare.

你听说这可行，而且很少见。

And so what did you take away?

那么你拿走了什么呢？

What's the pattern you took from this?

你从中得到了什么模式？

There's the idea, it's good friction, but is there something that you're like, what is a sign of this is going to be good friction?

有一个想法，这是良好的摩擦，但是有什么你喜欢的东西，这将是良好的摩擦的标志是什么？

Laura Schaffer: There's still alleviated a problem.

Laura Schaffer：仍然有一个问题得到缓解。

They alleviated the problem they had where they're coming in and worried that it was going to be difficult or that they weren't going to be able to figure it out, they weren't going to be able to get their footing.

他们缓解了他们进来时遇到的问题，并担心这会很困难，或者他们无法解决问题，他们无法站稳脚跟。

And I'd say that that's not unique to Twilio.

我想说这并不是 Twilio 独有的。

That's something that I think users experience at any front door, at any company, any signup beginning the signup loads, it's like, "Here we go, buckle up." Especially when it's in a work context and there might be extra pressure on you to succeed or for you to make as an accurate assessment.

我认为用户在任何前门、任何公司、任何注册开始加载时都会体验到这种感觉，就像是“我们开始了，系好安全带”。尤其是在工作环境中，您可能会面临获得成功或做出准确评估的额外压力。

So I think that psyche of, "Okay, am I in the right place?

所以我认为，“好吧，我来对地方了吗？

Is it's going to do what I need it to do?

它会做我需要它做的事情吗？

Can I figure it out?

我能弄清楚吗？

Am I capable?" These are extremely common things for people to feel when they're signing up.

我有能力吗？”这些都是人们在注册时感受到的极其常见的事情。

Laura Schaffer: And so certainly, that I think can carry out to any place.

Laura Schaffer：当然，我认为可以带到任何地方。

I'd encourage absolutely everybody to be putting those experiences within their early onboarding, not just for you selfishly, so you can learn and segment them appropriately, but also so the user can feel more confident as they get going and like, "Hey, I'm in the right place.

我绝对鼓励每个人将这些体验融入到他们的早期入职过程中，不仅仅是为了你自私，这样你就可以适当地学习和细分它们，而且这样用户在开始使用时会感到更加自信，并喜欢，“嘿，我来对地方了。

This is going to do what I needed to do." But I think that the carry over there is just the psyche of the user and just being so aware that it's not so cookie cutter as, "What is the problem my market experience is and what can my product do to help them?" There's also this other thing in the room which is so important to people's success, their ability to succeed with your products and your self-serve experiences, which is, what is the mentality and the psyche of the person at the various stages in your journey?

这将完成我需要做的事情。”但我认为，遗留下来的只是用户的心理，只是意识到它并不那么千篇一律，“我的市场经验是什么问题，我的产品可以做些什么来帮助他们？”房间里还有另一件事对人们的成功、他们通过你的产品和你的自助体验取得成功的能力非常重要，那就是，在你的旅程的各个阶段，人们的心态和心理是什么？

Laura Schaffer: And if you're not incorporating that or addressing that, you will absolutely miss things or things will fail and you'll be very confused as to why.

Laura Schaffer：如果你不整合或解决这个问题，你绝对会错过一些事情，或者事情会失败，你会很困惑为什么。

We had a great experiment that I'm happy to talk about where same concept, a totally different situation, which is later in onboarding.

我们进行了一个很棒的实验，我很高兴在稍后的入职培训中谈论相同的概念，完全不同的情况。

One of the things that we tried to do over time to make Twilio less complex was to offer steps like, onboarding, welcome step one, here's what you want to build.

随着时间的推移，我们尝试做的事情之一是提供诸如入职、欢迎第一步之类的步骤，以降低 Twilio 的复杂性，这就是您想要构建的内容。

Great, we all know that now, "Okay, step one, go do this thing.

太好了，我们现在都知道了，“好吧，第一步，去做这件事。

Step two, go to this thing.

第二步，去做这件事。

Three, this thing.

三、这个东西。

Four, this thing.

四、这个东西。

Five, bam, you're live, congratulations, aha," all these things.

五，砰，你活过来了，恭喜你，啊哈，”所有这些事情。

So we shipped that, got that out there and I was like, yeah, it was improved conversion.

所以我们发货了，把它放在那里，我想，是的，它提高了转化率。

It wasn't like that great.

事情并没有那么好。

It's like, man.

就像，伙计。

We went from there being absolutely nothing, "Choose you're adventure, figure it out, go figure it out.

我们从一无所有开始，“选择你的冒险，弄清楚它，去弄清楚它。

Good luck." To this prescriptive thing.

祝你好运。”对于这种规定性的事情。

And it wasn't converting .

而且它没有转换。

Laura Schaffer: So to talk to some users and there wasn't anything particularly obvious that was coming out as to what the issue was.

Laura Schaffer：因此，与一些用户交谈后，没有发现任何特别明显的问题是什么。

It was like, "Oh yeah, Let's go to step one." And we did mock the people.

就像是，“哦，是的，让我们开始第一步。”我们确实嘲笑了人们。

"Okay, now I know, I do step two." But there was one thing that I was hearing that was coming out that feels like something, and that was the telephone number, the telecom part.

“好吧，现在我知道了，我执行第二步。”但我听到的一件事感觉像是某种东西，那就是电话号码，电信部分。

Developers when they were coming into Twilio, it was things that were familiar to them.

当开发人员进入 Twilio 时，他们对这些东西很熟悉。

APIs, the language they're coding in, code samples, documentation, things like the bogeyman, the things that would psychologically trip them up, telecom, phone numbers.

API、他们编码所用的语言、代码示例、文档、诸如妖怪之类的东西、会在心理上绊倒他们的东西、电信、电话号码。

These things that just were completely out of the zone of anything that they'd ever worked with before, especially earlier on in Twilio's journey.

这些东西完全超出了他们以前处理过的任何东西的范围，尤其是在 Twilio 旅程的早期。

Laura Schaffer: But even now, right?

Laura Schaffer：但即使是现在，对吧？

Telecom's very different beast for most developers.

对于大多数开发人员来说，电信是非常不同的野兽。

And guess what was step one?

猜猜第一步是什么？

Get a phone number because that's step one.

获取电话号码，因为这是第一步。

Anytime that anyone's trying to teach one to use Twilio one-on-one, always going to sit down, ask and be like, "Okay, here we're going to go get a phone number and configure it." And that's what anyone every time will do.

每当有人试图一对一地教一个人使用 Twilio 时，他总是会坐下来询问并说：“好吧，我们要去获取一个电话号码并进行配置。”这就是任何人每次都会做的事情。

However, in a self-serve experience, when you don't have that safe person sitting next to you being like, "Don't worry, it's going to be okay, I'm going to take you through this crazy telecom journey." They're on their own, but that's psyche telling is them like, "Oh my god, telecom.

然而，在自助体验中，当你没有那个安全的人坐在你旁边时，你会说：“别担心，一切都会好起来的，我将带你经历这个疯狂的电信之旅。”他们是靠自己的力量，但他们的心理告诉我们，“天哪，电信。

Well, I can't do that.

嗯，我不能那样做。

That sounds scary.

听起来很可怕。

We're getting a phone number configured.

我们正在配置一个电话号码。

Whoa, I'm out of my debt."

哇哦，我的债还清了。”

Laura Schaffer: And so what did we do to test this out?

Laura Schaffer：那么我们做了什么来测试这一点呢？

Test out whether that was the issue?

测试一下是不是这个问题？

Actually, and it's first we're in the MVP.

事实上，这是我们第一次获得 MVP。

They kicked them out of the portal entirely and put them into a docs page where we could manufacture an experience where the first thing they saw was code and they're in the docs safe place, the language that they're coding in and then snuck in there.

他们将它们完全从门户中踢出，并将它们放入文档页面，我们可以在其中制造一种体验，其中他们看到的第一件事就是代码，并且它们位于文档安全的地方，即他们编码的语言，然后潜入其中。

Laura Schaffer: It was like, "Oh, get a phone number, let's go configure it." Not as step one, not as the leading thing, but embedded.

Laura Schaffer：就像，“哦，获取一个电话号码，让我们去配置它。”不是作为第一步，不是作为主导，而是嵌入。

And the analogy I have for this is pilling a hot dog.

我对此的类比是给热狗起球。

So if anyone's got a dog or an animal you have to feed a pill to, it's like you can't just feed the pill to the animal, it's never going to happen.

因此，如果有人养了一只狗或一只动物，你必须给它喂药，就好像你不能只给动物喂药一样，这是永远不会发生的。

But if you shove it inside of a hot dog, which looks good and that's exciting, then you can get them to consume it more easily.

但如果你把它塞进热狗里，看起来不错而且很令人兴奋，那么你就可以让他们更容易地吃掉它。

And so this was-

所以这是——

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

We do peanut butter, that's .

我们做花生酱，就是这样。

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, exactly, right?

劳拉·谢弗：是的，完全正确，对吧？

Yeah, hot hotdog, peanut butter, all that.

是的，热狗，花生酱，所有这些。

You bury it.

你把它埋了。

You embed the scary unpleasant thing.

你嵌入了可怕的、不愉快的东西。

And so that's what you said with the phone number stuff, that telecom stuff.

这就是你所说的电话号码、电信方面的内容。

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

Even though we're a good amount of the console and they're going off and we had no easy return button, it converted better because we were addressing the big problem that was there at the time, which is their psyche.

尽管我们使用了大量的控制台，但它们即将关闭，而且我们没有简单的返回按钮，但它的转换效果更好，因为我们正在解决当时存在的大问题，那就是他们的心理。

They were not ready to come in and immediately thrown into a phone number experience.

他们还没有准备好进来，立即陷入了电话号码的体验中。

That was letting the bogeyman and out to party and that's not what was going to work.

那是让妖怪出去参加聚会，而这行不通。

We needed to put that bogeyman pill and the hotdog.

我们需要放那颗妖药和热狗。

Laura Schaffer: And so then once that validated, then we can actually go through the business of putting that into the onboarding float correctly and then that could be even better.

Laura Schaffer：一旦得到验证，我们实际上就可以将其正确地放入入职浮动中，然后情况可能会更好。

But so again, the psyche of your user is such a critical thing to be thinking about.

但话又说回来，用户的心理是一个需要考虑的重要问题。

And if something very logical isn't converting well sometimes, it means that you're battling against the psyche of a user and you want to take a step back and think about and learn about where someone is psychologically in your space.

如果某些非常合乎逻辑的东西有时不能很好地转化，则意味着您正在与用户的心理作斗争，并且您想要退后一步，思考并了解某人在您的空间中的心理状态。

Lenny: Feels like you had this experiment that was a complete redesign of the onboarding flow and that didn't work.

Lenny：感觉你的实验是对入职流程的彻底重新设计，但没有成功。

And then your second attempt was a different approach that's like a full onboarding flow.

然后你的第二次尝试是一种不同的方法，就像完整的入职流程。

And I'm curious, do you have a take on just when you run experiments?

我很好奇，当你进行实验时，你有什么想法吗？

And it's something we dealt with a lot at Airbnb in other places is like, do you just redesign the whole thing or is it better to iteratively work from where you're today and just experiment piece by piece towards some future much better experience?

我们在 Airbnb 在其他地方经常处理这样的问题，比如，你是重新设计整个事情，还是从你现在的位置开始迭代工作，一点一点地进行实验，以获得未来更好的体验？

Laura Schaffer: Here's what I would say to this is that from a high level, it's always going to be better to be iterative.

Laura Schaffer：我想说的是，从高层次来看，迭代总是更好。

And the reason that it's better is that roughly 80% of the times, ORs in the time are hypotheses and the things that we believe will be true .

它更好的原因是，大约 80% 的情况下，当时的 OR 都是假设和我们相信会是真的事情。

And this is amazing.

这太棒了。

There's an amazing article out there I'm happy to share with you so you can put in the show notes.

我很高兴与您分享一篇精彩的文章，以便您可以将其添加到演出笔记中。

Laura Schaffer: That really takes a scientific approach to proving that out.

Laura Schaffer：这确实需要用科学方法来证明这一点。

Companies like Netflix and Microsoft, there's over and over again 80 plus percent.

像 Netflix 和微软这样的公司，这个比例一再超过 80%。

Some companies say 90% of things fail.

有些公司说 90% 的事情都会失败。

And so the closer you get to something that you go bear your head in the sand or go into an attic and build something for six months and ship it, the more likely it is that you are going to ship the 80% wrong stuff.

因此，你越接近某个东西，你就将头埋在沙子里，或者走进阁楼，花六个月的时间建造一些东西并交付它，你就越有可能交付 80% 错误的东西。

Laura Schaffer: Whereas the more iterative you are, the more likely that you're going to catch it sooner.

Laura Schaffer：然而你迭代得越多，你就越有可能更快地抓住它。

And failure doesn't have to be a wall, it can be a compass, it can be the thing that leads you to the right thing.

失败不一定是一堵墙，它可以是一个指南针，它可以是引导你走向正确目标的东西。

And so you always want to as best you can, get stuff in front of customers so that you can get that compass and get that compass activated, know where to go.

所以你总是想尽你所能，把东西放在顾客面前，这样你就可以拿到指南针并激活指南针，知道要去哪里。

Laura Schaffer: So that means doing ugly things.

劳拉·谢弗：所以这意味着做丑陋的事情。

I tell my teams all the time, if it's not embarrassing, you've gone too far.

我一直告诉我的团队，如果这不是令人尴尬的话，那就是你们做得太过分了。

Got to be embarrassing.

一定很尴尬吧

The first thing, that was embarrassing, kicking people out, onboarding, spend all this money and whatever to get them into your center flow, and then the first thing we do, get out of here.

第一件事是令人尴尬的，把人们踢出去，入职，花所有这些钱和任何东西让他们进入你的中心流程，然后我们做的第一件事就是离开这里。

That's nuts.

那太疯狂了。

But if it hadn't validated, that would've been a very cheap but very valuable learning.

但如果它没有得到验证，那将是一次非常廉价但非常有价值的学习。

Instead, it was a very powerful cheap learning in the other direction.

相反，它是另一个方向上非常强大且廉价的学习。

Okay, now we know we can invest in it.

好的，现在我们知道我们可以投资它。

We know that's the right thing to do.

我们知道这是正确的做法。

So always better to be iterative so that you are letting failure work for you instead of having it be a trap that you fall into.

因此，最好总是进行迭代，这样你就可以让失败为你所用，而不是让它成为你掉入的陷阱。

Lenny: I know that you just shared as per experiment, you're probably wrong 80% of the time.

Lenny：我知道你只是根据实验分享的，80% 的情况下你可能都是错的。

In my experience, launching a halt redesign is as negative a hundred percent of the time.

根据我的经验，停止重新设计在百分之一百的情况下都是负面的。

I've grown weary to avoid that as much as possible, which is like, you know that, you're taught that as you go into growth and product, but you're just like, "Nah, come on, let's just make it awesome.

我已经厌倦了尽可能避免这种情况，就像，你知道，当你进入增长和产品时，你被教导这一点，但你只是想，“不，来吧，让我们让它变得很棒。

Just redesign this whole thing." Especially your designers is always like, "No, let's start again.

只需重新设计整个事情即可。”尤其是你的设计师总是会说，“不，让我们重新开始。

Let's make it amazing." But it always ends up being negative and you're like, "Okay, well, it's too late now we got to launch this thing, we don't have time to start again."

让我们让它变得令人惊奇。”但它最终总是消极的，你会想，“好吧，好吧，现在我们必须推出这个东西已经太晚了，我们没有时间重新开始。”

Laura Schaffer: Well, it's funny, in the articles, and you'll see it was written by somebody from Microsoft who built Implementation platform and did all these cool things, as he went into actually trying to apply a scientific method of figuring out how often people are wrong about their hypotheses and what they're planning to do.

Laura Schaffer：嗯，这很有趣，在文章中，你会看到它是由 Microsoft 的某个人编写的，他构建了实施平台并做了所有这些很酷的事情，因为他实际上尝试应用一种科学方法来弄清楚人们的假设和他们计划做什么是错误的。

He's like, "I wonder if that applies to us here at Microsoft." Even for him, that question of .

他说，“我想知道这是否适用于我们微软。”即使对于他来说，这个问题。

And I think it's challenging when there's a lot of smart people in this space doing things and it's very difficult to think, "Gosh, am I really wrong?

我认为，当这个领域有很多聪明人在做事情时，很难思考“天哪，我真的错了吗？

80 plus, 90% of the time?" But when you think about it, makes total sense because what has to happen for something to be successful?

80岁以上，90%的时间？”但当你仔细想想，这是完全有道理的，因为某件事要成功必须发生什么？

You have to understand the problem perfectly.

你必须完全理解这个问题。

You have to then understand who's having the problem perfectly, the customer.

然后，您必须完全了解谁遇到了问题，即客户。

At what time they're having the problem.

他们什么时候遇到问题。

Laura Schaffer: Then you've got to put the right solution in front of them to solve that problem.

Laura Schaffer：那么你必须将正确的解决方案摆在他们面前来解决这个问题。

Maybe you've got the problem, all that stuff, but your solution something off.

也许你遇到了问题，诸如此类的问题，但你的解决方案有些不对劲。

Or maybe your solution is right, but maybe it's just not presented, it communicated in the right way.

或者也许您的解决方案是正确的，但也许它只是没有呈现出来，而是以正确的方式进行了沟通。

You could have any one of those things off and it's not going to succeed.

你可以取消其中任何一项，但它不会成功。

It's not going to have the metric impact you're expecting it to have.

它不会产生您期望的指标影响。

So in that context, it's almost like incredible.

所以在这种情况下，这几乎是令人难以置信的。

We do succeed 20 to 10% of the time given everything that has to line up.

考虑到一切都必须协调一致，我们确实有 20% 到 10% 的成功率。

And so I think it's one of those things where you really want to go into it embracing that, "Okay, this isn't about how smart I am or how good my team is or any of that stuff.

所以我认为这是你真正想要参与其中的事情之一，“好吧，这与我有多聪明或我的团队有多优秀或任何其他东西无关。

It's just the logic of this is challenging to get it right and let's embrace that and let's lean into that knowledge and make it a part of our strategy," instead of finding against it.

只是这个逻辑很难让它正确，让我们拥抱这一点，让我们利用这些知识，使其成为我们战略的一部分，”而不是反对它。

Lenny: Have you found anything that helps you increase those odds or is just, this is the way of the world and you probably can't significantly increase the chances your experiment works out?

莱尼：你有没有发现任何可以帮助你增加这些几率的东西，或者只是，这就是世界的方式，你可能无法显着增加你的实验成功的机会？

Laura Schaffer: So here's the thing, I think there's very little that we can do to make that space easier.

Laura Schaffer：所以事情是这样的，我认为我们可以做的很少，可以让这个空间变得更容易。

All those things have to be figured out.

所有这些事情都必须弄清楚。

And so I definitely think that everybody is going to be in a space where their original ideas, untested ideas are going to be around that hit rate.

所以我绝对认为每个人都将处于一个他们原创的想法、未经测试的想法将围绕命中率的空间。

However, the way that you go about validating those can be totally different and you can be very fast about validating those ideas and that's the key.

然而，您验证这些想法的方式可能完全不同，并且您可以非常快地验证这些想法，这就是关键。

And AB testing is one of the most expensive kinds of ways to validate an experiment.

AB 测试是验证实验的最昂贵的方法之一。

It often requires design and engineering and the PM or growth person or marketing person who's crafting it.

它通常需要设计和工程以及负责制作它的产品经理或增长人员或营销人员。

All these things are investments that take a lot of time even for simple thing.

所有这些事情都是投资，即使是简单的事情也需要花费大量时间。

And then you have the time factor, how long's the thing I have to run to have an impact?

然后还有时间因素，我需要运行多长时间才能产生影响？

Laura Schaffer: So all of that is extremely expensive.

Laura Schaffer：所以所有这些都非常昂贵。

And so I think the key is to just think through, "Okay, what are the things I can do to quickly validate what these ideas are that we ?" And you can do that with painted doors, which is where you test rate the concept and the idea before it exists versus the actual experience.

所以我认为关键是要思考一下，“好吧，我可以做哪些事情来快速验证我们的这些想法是什么？”你可以用涂漆的门来做到这一点，这是你在概念和想法出现之前与实际体验进行测试评估的地方。

You can do mocks.

你可以做模拟。

If you've got a designer, create those mocks for that experience, put it in front of people, see how they engage with it.

如果您有设计师，请为该体验创建这些模拟，将其放在人们面前，看看他们如何参与其中。

That can be so powerful.

原来可以这么强大啊。

Laura Schaffer: You could invalidate tons of hypotheses at that state.

Laura Schaffer：在那种状态下，你可能会推翻大量假设。

The only things you want to get to that deep AB testing environment or ones that have been vetted along the way.

您唯一想要进入深度 AB 测试环境或一路经过审查的东西。

And that way, you reduce your fail rate, because you're failing faster by using other methods.

这样，您就可以降低失败率，因为使用其他方法可以更快地失败。

So I think I more advocate for that side.

所以我认为我更支持这一方。

Let's fail fast by using those tools rather than figuring out a way that you can rise above where everyone else is operating and figure out ways to solve all that complex stuff better because that's going to be challenging, but you can always get better at experimenting and validating things faster.

让我们通过使用这些工具来快速失败，而不是找出一种方法来超越其他人的操作并找出更好地解决所有复杂问题的方法，因为这将具有挑战性，但您总是可以更快地更好地进行实验和验证。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Writer.

莱尼：这一集是作家给你带来的。

How much hype have you been hearing about generative AI?

您听说过多少关于生成式人工智能的炒作？

So much.

就这么多。

But how do you take it from a shiny toy to an actual business tool that helps you do your actual job?

但是，如何将它从一个闪亮的玩具变成一个可以帮助您完成实际工作的实际业务工具呢？

Writer is an enterprise grade generative AI platform built specifically for the needs of businesses and already widely deployed at world-class brands like Uber, Spotify, HubSpot, and UiPath.

Writer 是专为满足企业需求而构建的企业级生成式 AI 平台，已在 Uber、Spotify、HubSpot 和 UiPath 等世界级品牌中广泛部署。

With writer, you can break through content bottlenecks across your organization from marketing webpages to sales e-mails in product messages to creating high quality on-brand content at scale.

借助 writer，您可以突破整个组织的内容瓶颈，从营销网页到产品消息中的销售电子邮件，再到大规模创建高质量的品牌内容。

Lenny: And unlike other AI applications, writers' training happens securely on your data and your style and brand guidelines that you provide specific to your organization.

Lenny：与其他人工智能应用程序不同，作家培训安全地根据您为组织提供的数据以及风格和品牌指南进行。

The result is that you get consistent content in your brand voice at scale.

结果是您可以大规模地获得一致的品牌声音内容。

Get AI that your people will love for a limited time.

在有限的时间内获得您的人民会喜欢的人工智能。

Listeners to Lenny's podcast and get 20% off if they go to writer.com/lenny, that's writer.com/lenny.

Lenny 播客的听众如果访问 writer.com/lenny，即可享受 20% 的折扣，即 writer.com/lenny。

Lenny: Where do you find the best ideas come from for driving meaningful lift?

莱尼：您从哪里找到推动有意义的提升的最佳创意？

Is it gut instinct type and experience bucket or is it data telling you like, "Hey, or here's a huge opportunity," in your experience?

是直觉类型和经验桶，还是数据告诉你，“嘿，或者这是一个巨大的机会”，根据你的经验？

Laura Schaffer: I'm a very data-driven person.

Laura Schaffer：我是一个非常注重数据驱动的人。

I self-describe and think of myself that way.

我这样自我描述和思考自己。

In large part because of that, I feel you have to be constantly checking yourself and data is a really great way to do that.

很大程度上正因为如此，我觉得你必须不断地检查自己，而数据是做到这一点的一个很好的方法。

But I definitely think that I would be described as someone who's going more by their gut when looking at date end results just because of the way that I approach it, which is I'm very comfortable and very common in using qualitative responses and things like that and supplement to quantitative data to make a decision and that puts less of a burden on the quantitative to really make an assessment of whether something was working or not.

但我绝对认为，我会被描述为一个在查看日期最终结果时更多地凭直觉行事的人，只是因为我处理它的方式，这就是我非常习惯并且很常见地使用定性响应和类似的东西，并补充定量数据来做出决定，这给定量数据带来了更少的负担，以真正评估某件事是否有效。

Laura Schaffer: One of the things I see, I think sometimes goes against what other folks do, although I'm seeing things shift a little, is that 95% confidence rate.

Laura Schaffer：我看到的一件事，我认为有时与其他人所做的相反，尽管我看到事情发生了一些变化，那就是 95% 的置信率。

My background in college, I was in a lab running experiments or really publishing two journal and stuff and we had to have that 95% confidence rate, had to because the things that were coming out of the lab and being published were influencing things like how we do education and how we understand how bias works and when it shows up and therefore how we can combat it.

我在大学时的背景是，我在一个实验室里进行实验，或者真的出版了两本期刊之类的东西，我们必须有 95% 的置信率，必须这样做，因为从实验室出来并发表的东西会影响我们如何进行教育、我们如何理解偏见如何运作、何时出现以及我们如何对抗它。

Laura Schaffer: Things were wrong.

劳拉·谢弗：事情出了问题。

And sending a bunch of bologna, that can cause some significantly bad things like false positive, false negatives in that context can be very dangerous, for lack of a better word.

发送一堆博洛尼亚，可能会导致一些非常糟糕的事情，比如假阳性、假阴性，在这种情况下可能非常危险，因为没有更好的词了。

And you think of other pharmaceuticals, the 95% confidence rate belongs in some companies and some industries because the risk of failure on the impact of a false success is very high.

想想其他制药公司，95% 的置信度属于某些公司和某些行业，因为失败的风险对虚假成功的影响非常高。

Laura Schaffer: But those of us converting users and trying to upsell folks, we are very fortunate to not have that level of burden on us and we can take advantage of that.

Laura Schaffer：但是我们这些转换用户并试图向人们追加销售的人，我们很幸运没有承受那么大的负担，我们可以利用这一点。

And so there are definitely times where I will advocate for and I will push for and I will myself use lower confidence intervals and 95%, especially if that doubles amount of experiments that you can run in a year.

因此，有时我肯定会提倡、推动，并且我自己会使用较低的置信区间和 95%，特别是如果这会使一年内可以运行的实验数量增加一倍。

End of the day, these are all methods that we use to try to validate the hypotheses that we have.

归根结底，这些都是我们用来尝试验证我们的假设的方法。

And if you're doing a 95% confidence in a role, you're still accepting a 5%, some amount of false success, do that a little bit more, challenge you to do that a little bit more.

如果你对某个角色有 95% 的信心，你仍然接受 5% 的、一定程度的虚假成功，多做一点，挑战你多做一点。

And then run way more experience.

然后跑更多的经验。

If you look at the net of what your team is doing over the course of year, what you're doing over the course of a year, you will be positive.

如果你看看你的团队在这一年中所做的事情，以及你在这一年中所做的事情，你就会感到积极。

Lenny: Wow, that is a big idea.

莱尼：哇，这是个好主意。

Idea of releasing the P-value confidence interval for experimentation and data teams.

为实验和数据团队发布 P 值置信区间的想法。

Everyone would be excited about this.

每个人都会对此感到兴奋。

Probably maybe not some data scientists on teams.

可能不是团队中的一些数据科学家。

Do you do that?

你这样做吗？

How do you act?

你如何行动？

Is that how you operate on your teams?

这就是你在团队中的运作方式吗？

Just like we don't need 95% competence?

就像我们不需要95%的能力一样？

Laura Schaffer: So I'll say this, this is actually very critically important.

Laura Schaffer：所以我想说，这实际上非常重要。

You must have this game plan set before you run something.

在运行某项操作之前，您必须先制定此游戏计划。

Failure mode that I see so many teams fall into is they'll run the experiment or whatever it is and then they'll make the data fit the hypothesis.

我看到很多团队陷入的失败模式是他们会运行实验或其他什么，然后他们会让数据符合假设。

Or sometimes they'll go without a hypothesis and just be like, "This is going to do better things for our metrics," but not a core reason as to why or what exactly are we testing here.

或者有时他们会没有假设，只是说，“这将为我们的指标做更好的事情”，但这并不是我们在这里测试的原因或到底是什么的核心原因。

And so this is another area we could absolutely fall into that trap.

所以这是我们绝对可能落入陷阱的另一个领域。

"Let's on good 80.

“让我们80分吧。

I think it's good.

我认为这很好。

That Laura person said it was cool.

劳拉那个人说这很酷。

So I think that that's fine." That will always be a trap.

所以我认为这很好。”那将永远是一个陷阱。

So it needs to be very deliberately thought of in advance as a way of like, "Hey, here's how we're going to validate this." And always, always, always, if you're going to accept more risk of a false success or false positive, false negative, you want to then be really thinking about how you're going to harden your validation of a hypothesis.

因此，需要提前非常慎重地考虑，就像“嘿，这就是我们要验证这一点的方式。”永远，永远，永远，如果你要接受更多的假成功或假阳性、假阴性的风险，那么你需要真正考虑如何加强对假设的验证。

Laura Schaffer: For example, let's take that when we talked about with Twilio where we are kicking people out and we're sending them to the pilling hotdog experiment, and we're sending people to that experience to hide the phone number.

Laura Schaffer：例如，当我们与 Twilio 谈论时，我们将人们踢出去，并将他们送去进行起球热狗实验，我们将人们送去体验以隐藏电话号码。

Now in that case, let's say that we were going to accept a lower confidence interval.

现在，在这种情况下，假设我们将接受较低的置信区间。

I would very much want to see qualitative feedback to confirm that that hypothesis was true.

我非常希望看到定性反馈来确认该假设是正确的。

I want to be looking at the qualitative data from the ones where people were thrown into the existing flow and one's put into the dogs that one of them felt more confident and more like this was really easy to get through and they felt out of a territory and things like that.

我想看看那些人们被扔进现有流程和被放入狗中的定性数据，其中一个人感觉更自信，更喜欢这真的很容易通过，他们感觉脱离了一个领域等等。

And I'd be wanting to hear from the ones who were in the other one, things like, "Oh, I got stuck on that ." Like, "Figure this out, but it feels like it's that amount of my depth."

我想听听另一部作品中的人的意见，比如，“哦，我陷入了困境。”就像，“弄清楚这一点，但感觉这就是我的深度。”

Laura Schaffer: I would want to be looking for other things to corroborate the hard data that I'm seeing.

Laura Schaffer：我希望寻找其他东西来证实我所看到的硬数据。

And yes, it opens the door to whenever you open the door to more risk acceptance, you are going to have some false successes there.

是的，它打开了大门，每当你打开接受更多风险的大门时，你都会在那里取得一些虚假的成功。

But all of these things together can overall make it more likely that you're shipping more things that are going to positively influence the customer.

但所有这些因素加在一起，总体上可以使您更有可能运送更多对客户产生积极影响的东西。

And again, I can't say it enough.

再说一遍，我说得还不够。

It is a huge risk in and of itself to not ship as much as you possibly could in a year.

如果一年内无法尽可能多地发货，这本身就是一个巨大的风险。

That is a huge risk given that very high fail rate.

鉴于非常高的失败率，这是一个巨大的风险。

So to those data scientists, and I've chatted with a few of my time, what I try to explain is that that article, that data that the 80%, that's hard data about what a detriment it can be if you don't run an enough experiments.

所以对于那些数据科学家，我和一些人聊过，我试图解释的是那篇文章，80% 的数据，这是关于如果你不进行足够的实验可能会造成多大损害的硬数据。

Laura Schaffer: If you just run 10 in a year on there, maybe two around impact, two of a course of an entire year if you take that approach.

Laura Schaffer：如果你一年只跑 10 次，也许在击球区跑 2 次，如果你采取这种方法的话，全年跑 2 次。

So data scientists can understand, "Hey, if we do this, if we run this down, we can double or triple whatever it is, the number of experiments where we can run and overall net that's going to result in more successes that will overall net us to a positive place." You can still tell a data story to the data scientist about why you're doing this.

因此，数据科学家可以理解，“嘿，如果我们这样做，如果我们把它减少，我们可以将它增加一倍或三倍，我们可以运行的实验数量和总体网络将带来更多的成功，从而使我们总体上取得积极的进展。”您仍然可以向数据科学家讲述一个数据故事，说明您这样做的原因。

Again, this is why when you asked that question identify, as a very data-driven person.

同样，这就是为什么当你问这个问题时，你会认为自己是一个非常数据驱动的人。

But I think some of the methods that I use can sound at the service level as more like, "Oh, I'm going by my gut." But again, very data driven is just embracing the reality of some of the hard data that I don't think we all embrace or are even aware of sometimes about that fail rate.

但我认为我使用的一些方法在服务级别听起来更像是“哦，我凭直觉行事”。但同样，非常数据驱动只是接受一些硬数据的现实，我认为我们都接受这些硬数据，有时甚至没有意识到失败率。

Lenny: This is awesome.

莱尼：这太棒了。

This is a big idea.

这是一个伟大的想法。

Have you written about this anywhere for folks that maybe want to try this approach at their company?

您是否曾在任何地方为那些可能想在公司尝试这种方法的人写过有关此内容的文章？

And if not, you should.

如果没有，你应该这样做。

Laura Schaffer: I appreciate that.

劳拉·谢弗：我很欣赏这一点。

It's funny, it's like all my general life to do is just start writing some of this down.

很有趣，就像我一生要做的就是开始写下其中的一些内容。

I have three children, one of whom is five months old, and then I have two and four.

我有三个孩子，其中一个五个月大，然后我还有两个和四个孩子。

And so sometimes I'll start to write and then one of them will crawl across the keyboard.

所以有时我会开始写作，然后其中一个会在键盘上爬行。

And by one of them, I mean all of multiple times.

我所说的其中之一是指所有多次。

But eventually, yeah, I'll be very happy to do that if folks would be interested.

但最终，是的，如果人们感兴趣的话，我会很乐意这样做。

I'm always happy to do whatever I can to help folks, help empower folks with knowledge to do better because none of this is secret sauce really.

我总是很乐意尽我所能来帮助人们，帮助人们用知识做得更好，因为这些都不是真正的秘密武器。

It's just learn from experience and it's always better to learn from others' experience than your own.

这只是从经验中学习，从别人的经验中学习总是比从自己的经验中学习更好。

It's faster.

速度更快了。

So yeah, I would definitely is that, I think that's the best that I can say, but eventually my kids will get older.

所以是的，我肯定会这样，我认为这是我能说的最好的，但最终我的孩子会长大。

I hear this and maybe I can do so.

我听到了这个，也许我可以这样做。

Lenny: Hopefully.

莱尼：希望如此。

Cool.

凉爽的。

So maybe if you're watching us on YouTube, leave a comment and if you want Laura to write in depth about this idea and spread it to your company.

因此，如果您在 YouTube 上观看我们的节目，如果您希望 Laura 深入撰写这个想法并将其传播到您的公司，请发表评论。

Okay, I want to talk about growth, but I have one last question just along the lines of experimentation.

好吧，我想谈谈增长，但我还有最后一个与实验有关的问题。

Is there any other just, I don't know, big lessons or takeaways of running experiments that would be interesting to share?

我不知道还有其他有趣的实验经验或收获值得分享吗？

Laura Schaffer: I think we got into this one a little bit, but I just really want to exclamation point, underline it, which is that notion of making the data wrap to fit a concept.

Laura Schaffer：我想我们已经深入探讨了这一点，但我真的想用感叹号来强调它，这就是使数据换行以适应概念的概念。

I think a lot of teams feel and are under a lot of pressure to show progress and, "What did you do this month?

我认为很多团队都感到并承受着很大的压力来展示进步，“这个月你做了什么？

Where did the metrics move?" And it can cause folks to feel like they have to do that, where it's like, "Oh gosh, this experiment." Everyone's got the experience where you run an experiment and you're like looking at the data, refresh, refresh, refresh, oh my gosh, and actually perform worse.

指标移到哪里了？”它会让人们觉得他们必须这样做，就像“哦天哪，这个实验。”每个人都有过这样的经历，当你进行实验时，你会喜欢查看数据，刷新，刷新，刷新，天哪，实际上表现更糟。

Or it's not the same and, "Gosh, we got everyone really excited about this thing that we all worked on really hard.

或者它不一样，“天哪，我们让每个人都对我们都非常努力工作的这件事感到非常兴奋。

Like, oh my god, what are we going to say in the QBR or the monthly report?" Whatever it is that the results come to light.

就像，天哪，我们要在 QBR 或月度报告中说什么？”不管怎样，结果都会揭晓。

Laura Schaffer: And to this, I'd say this, that it's incredibly important for growth teams to educate out and for folks outside of growth and leading growth, especially to understand that the best way for a growth team to succeed, the only way really for them to succeed is to embrace the fact that they're there to validate, to understand what the biggest opportunities are and to go after them.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：对此，我想说的是，对于增长团队来说，对增长和领导增长之外的人员进行教育是非常重要的，特别是要了解增长团队成功的最佳方式，他们真正成功的唯一方法是接受这样一个事实：他们在那里验证，了解最大的机会是什么并抓住它们。

Laura Schaffer: And that is not something that can be done on a weekly timeline, sometimes even a monthly, depending on the space you're in and what's known and unknown.

Laura Schaffer：这不是可以在每周、有时甚至每月完成的事情，具体取决于您所处的空间以及已知和未知的情况。

And so any growth team that's beholden to short timeline wins and improvement is always going to be dangerous.

因此，任何依赖短期胜利和改进的增长团队总是很危险的。

That's an environment that's conducive to vanity Metric usage and massaging the data .

这是一个有利于虚荣指标使用和数据调整的环境。

And ones that are more successful are ones that are reporting over longer periods of time.

更成功的是那些报告时间较长的公司。

Because I think growth team, given enough time to fail, enough time to learn the right thing to do is absolutely going to show success, real success.

因为我认为成长团队，如果有足够的时间去失败，有足够的时间去学习做正确的事情，绝对会表现出成功，真正的成功。

Not that, "Okay, we're going to make this data fit." But real moving the metrics success.

并不是说，“好吧，我们要使这些数据适合。”但真正的移动指标是成功的。

Laura Schaffer: And so definitely educating out.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：所以肯定是在进行教育。

If you find yourself in a position where you are beholden to that, share that 80% fail rate.

如果您发现自己对此负有责任，请分享 80% 的失败率。

Just math, statistics, data.

只是数学、统计、数据。

You cannot be successful in an environment, but over time you can be.

你不可能在某个环境中取得成功，但随着时间的推移，你可以取得成功。

And so that's one thing I definitely would draw on.

所以这是我肯定会借鉴的一件事。

I end up spending a decent amount of my pie chart at Twilio and then also at Rapid where I was after that and I'm sure I'll spend some time at Amplitude as well.

我最终在 Twilio 上花费了相当多的饼图，之后也在 Rapid 上花费了时间，我确信我也会在 Amplitude 上花费一些时间。

Just helping folks understand what is the healthiest ecosystem, most powerful ecosystem for a growth team to operate in.

只是帮助人们了解什么是增长团队运作的最健康的生态系统、最强大的生态系统。

And time and expectations over time is a big part of that.

随着时间的推移，时间和期望是其中的重要组成部分。

Lenny: When you say pie chart, it's like the pie chart of your time like a big chunk of your time goes to this?

Lenny：当你说饼图时，它就像你那个时代的饼图一样，你的大部分时间都花在了这上面？

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

I use white charts a lot as to describe that same idea.

我经常使用白色图表来描述同样的想法。

Just to be a little more concrete there, what is the timeframe you think is the minimum for a growth team to be thinking across?

更具体一点，您认为增长团队需要考虑的最短时间范围是多少？

Laura Schaffer: I think it's good, especially for newer teams, but even teams in general.

Laura Schaffer：我认为这很好，尤其是对于新团队，甚至是一般团队。

Commit to something that you can do over the course of a year and low, medium, high is always helpful in that space.

致力于一年内可以完成的事情，低、中、高在该领域总是有帮助的。

A lot times-

很多时候——

Lenny: What do you mean by that, by low, medium, high?

莱尼：低、中、高是什么意思？

Laura Schaffer: Low, medium high, more like, "Hey we've got a few bets that we have or few core hypotheses." And if they take off that's going to be our high bucket like, wow .

Laura Schaffer：低，中高，更像是，“嘿，我们有一些赌注，我们有一些核心假设。”如果他们起飞，那将是我们的高桶，哇。

We think these things could become lightening on a bottle here, but they could also be a bunch of missed.

我们认为这些东西可能会成为瓶子上的闪电，但它们也可能会被错过。

But until we run in, we're not going to know.

但在我们跑进去之前，我们不会知道。

And if those bear out though, then yeah, that's our high.

如果这些都得到证实，那么是的，那就是我们的巅峰。

And hey, we've got a few things that we think are safer.

嘿，我们有一些我们认为更安全的东西。

Maybe it was validated a bit in the previous year, what have you.

也许在前一年已经验证了一点，你有什么。

And these looking really the metrics this amount.

这些看起来确实是这个数量的指标。

Laura Schaffer: So it's helpful to give people though that construct, it deviates from it very hard deviates from this notion of like, here's the single number that we're going to hit.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：因此，向人们提供这种结构是有帮助的，它很难偏离这种概念，就像我们要达到的单个数字一样。

Just things that help people understand that space a little bit better and what to expect.

只是帮助人们更好地了解这个空间以及期望什么的东西。

And because of that it can be a little bit lumpy.

正因为如此，它可能会有点凹凸不平。

There were some things that you released.

你释放了一些东西。

Truly for the most number of years, can be easiest to talk about in this construct here, but there's one thing that we did that generated tens of millions of dollars in the pipeline, was really, really powerful and took, sometimes navigate and validate.

确实，多年来，在这里的这个结构中谈论起来可能是最容易的，但我们所做的一件事在管道中产生了数千万美元，非常非常强大，并且有时会进行导航和验证。

Other times we did that onboarding stuff that I was talking about catching those things.

其他时候我们会做一些我正在谈论的入职工作来捕捉这些东西。

That could happen on a little bit of a faster clip but still took some time to validate and understand.

这可能会在更快的剪辑中发生，但仍然需要一些时间来验证和理解。

But yeah, over the course of a year you should generally be able to commit to movement.

但是，是的，在一年的时间里，你通常应该能够致力于运动。

But help people understand the methods there so that they're not coming at you on a weekly basis being like, "And what did you do these past couple days?"

但要帮助人们理解那里的方法，这样他们就不会每周都来找你，问你“过去几天你做了什么？”

Lenny: Okay, I got to follow up on a couple of these things.

莱尼：好的，我得跟进一些事情。

What was that big change of Twilio that lead to tens of millions of dollars?

Twilio 带来的导致数千万美元收入的重大变化是什么？

Laura Schaffer: This is part of the course that I teach at Reforge.

Laura Schaffer：这是我在 Reforge 教授的课程的一部分。

Lenny: Oh, amazing.

莱尼：哦，太棒了。

You get to work for Reforge with .

您可以通过 为 Reforge 工作。

Laura Schaffer: I'm actually interested in retention, I think is my part.

Laura Schaffer：我实际上对保留人才感兴趣，我认为这是我的职责。

Right now, I'll give you links so we can in the show notes.

现在，我会给你链接，这样我们就可以在节目笔记中。

But yeah, the high level version, this was deeper into my journey at Twilio.

但是，是的，高级版本，这是我在 Twilio 的旅程的更深入内容。

This is fast-forward a few years, build up this team and some cool things going on.

时间快进了几年，建立了这个团队，并发生了一些很酷的事情。

But I was really looking for what's the next big thing for us to do?

但我真的在寻找我们要做的下一件大事是什么？

What could that be?

那会是什么？

And I noticed, remember that question very back of the day when I asked about the developer versus not developer folks ?

我注意到，还记得那天我问到开发人员与非开发人员的问题吗？

Laura Schaffer: We saw that little non-developer little dude ad was growing.

Laura Schaffer：我们看到非开发人员的小广告正在增长。

We were actually the number of people in the ecosystem who were identifying themselves as not a developer were in the space.

我们实际上是生态系统中自认为不是该领域开发人员的人数。

Laura Schaffer: But very interestingly they were, as we got more refined in our understanding of those folks, a lot of them wanted to build with Twilio.

Laura Schaffer：但非常有趣的是，随着我们对这些人的了解更加深入，他们中的很多人都想与 Twilio 一起构建。

There was a hypothesis of like, "Oh well maybe they're lost, maybe this want pricing, maybe they mistake." And I was like, "Nope, they're here to build, they won't build." And they struggled through the developer on onboarding and some of them would succeed and some would...

有一种假设，“哦，好吧，也许他们迷路了，也许这需要定价，也许他们弄错了。”我当时想，“不，他们是来建造的，但他们不会建造。”他们在开发人员的入职过程中遇到了困难，其中一些人会成功，一些人会……

But anyway, it was all about identifying what did they need to succeed.

但无论如何，这一切都是为了确定他们需要什么才能成功。

If we were made them successful, could it contribute to dollars?

如果我们让他们成功，是否可以为美元做出贡献？

One of the core learnings I'd heard from sales at the time was, "Hey, it's very challenging for us to get the folks when a developer's not involved yet to go from zero to one to get something off the ground.

当时我从销售人员那里听到的核心经验之一是，“嘿，当开发人员尚未参与时，让人们从零到一以取得进展对我们来说非常具有挑战性。

But man, if we can get them to do that, if I can get them in $1 and spend, I can get them to five.

但是伙计，如果我们能让他们做到这一点，如果我能让他们投入 1 美元并消费，我就能让他们达到 5 美元。

If I get them to five, and get them to 50, like 10,000, then I can get them to hundred thousand."

如果我把它们增加到五个，再增加到五十个，比如一万个，那么我就能把它们增加到十万个。”

Laura Schaffer: This whole long journey like, "Hey, Laura, if your team could just get them off the ground, man, we can do so much." So yeah, the journey is all about, okay, what were the things that were missing in the experience we were offering and ultimately was they couldn't write code from scratch.

劳拉·谢弗：整个漫长的旅程就像，“嘿，劳拉，如果你的团队能让他们起步，伙计，我们可以做很多事情。”所以，是的，整个旅程的重点是，好吧，我们提供的体验中缺少哪些东西，最终是他们无法从头开始编写代码。

That was really difficult.

那真的很难。

And also we're going to stand up a server.

我们还将建立一个服务器。

That was difficult.

那很困难。

But we ended up iteratively experiencing a way to validate those hypotheses and what's the right way to do this and yeah, that was great.

但我们最终反复体验了一种验证这些假设的方法，以及实现这一点的正确方法是什么，是的，这很棒。

It's called quick deploy on code exchange.

这称为代码交换上的快速部署。

Anyone can go there and deploy an app without having to write code and get an aha moment there with Twilio.

任何人都可以去那里部署应用程序，而无需编写代码，并通过 Twilio 获得顿悟。

Lenny: That is awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

So basically it's like a low code Twilio app?

那么基本上它就像一个低代码 Twilio 应用程序？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, it ended up being, we had a lot of pet names, nicknames for it.

劳拉·谢弗：是的，最终我们给它起了很多昵称和昵称。

I think probably the one that most succinctly describes it as just, it ended up being a create your own demo experience which made you talk about the psyche of people.

我认为最简洁的描述可能是，它最终成为一种创建您自己的演示体验，让您谈论人们的心理。

We talked about how developers telecom until can be intimidating.

我们讨论了开发商的电信业务如何令人生畏。

We'll talk about the non-development, sometimes the buyers or the people who are instantly buying decisions, for them, it was not only was it telco, but it was the developer stuff was inaccessible but they still wanted to jump in and they wanted to have that experience.

我们将谈论非开发，有时是买家或立即做出购买决定的人，对他们来说，这不仅是电信公司的问题，而且是开发商的东西无法访问，但他们仍然想参与其中，他们想获得这种体验。

And so this was a way for us to give them momentum, give them comfortable.

所以这是我们给他们动力、让他们感到舒适的一种方式。

Geez, I can get this running my development team, I'd definitely do it.

天啊，我可以让我的开发团队运行它，我肯定会这么做。

And so it was a very powerful moment where we could really address the psyche of those users, get them excited about Twilio, and then give sales the ability to give something powerful to those non-engineering buyers and folks they're talking to.

因此，这是一个非常强大的时刻，我们可以真正解决这些用户的心理问题，让他们对 Twilio 感到兴奋，然后让销售人员有能力向那些非工程买家和他们正在交谈的人提供强大的东西。

Lenny: So genius, looking back seems like an obvious win.

莱尼：太天才了，回想起来似乎是一场明显的胜利。

One of my readers suggested that I start a series of the story of a feature and walk through the discovery ideation development iteration and this feels like a really interesting example of that.

我的一位读者建议我开始一系列功能故事，并逐步完成发现构思开发迭代，这感觉像是一个非常有趣的例子。

But anyway.

但无论如何。

I got just a couple more questions.

我还有几个问题。

I know we've been going for an hour now.

我知道我们已经走了一个小时了。

But I have questions, I don't want to let you go just yet, and they're on growth.

但我有一些问题，我还不想让你走，而且它们正在成长。

So one question is just you worked at Twilio, which is very product led growth.

所以有一个问题是，您曾在 Twilio 工作过，这是一个以产品为主导的增长方式。

You're now Amplitude, which is more sales driven and I know you're trying to go more product led.

你们现在是 Amplitude，更多的是销售驱动，我知道你们正在努力更多地以产品为主导。

I know Elena talks a lot about this, how every company needs to have product led motions, otherwise they're going to be disrupted by someone that comes product led.

我知道埃琳娜对此谈了很多，每家公司都需要有以产品为主导的动议，否则他们会被以产品为主导的人打乱。

And I don't know what hires, which blanket would they fall into?

我不知道哪些员工，他们会属于哪一类？

Laura Schaffer: Between the AI like SLG and PLG.

Laura Schaffer：在 SLG 和 PLG 等 AI 之间。

Yeah, for me they're two sides of the same coin.

是的，对我来说，它们是同一枚硬币的两面。

Product growth and sales.

产品增长和销售。

It's all to me, very thematically the same stuff.

这对我来说都是主题相同的东西。

The difference is that with growth, you are selling with your product, and with sales you're selling with person like one-to-one.

不同之处在于，在增长中，你是在销售你的产品，而在销售中，你是在与人一对一地销售。

And so companies need to be employing both of those forces to optimally convert their audience.

因此，公司需要利用这两种力量来最佳地转化他们的受众。

We're in a world where people are expecting both.

我们生活在一个人们对两者都抱有期待的世界。

They're expecting to be sold by your product and sold at the enterprise level.

他们期望通过您的产品进行销售并在企业级别进行销售。

And large companies buy by human beings.

大公司是靠人来购买的。

It's going to listen to their specific needs and really break it off for them.

它将倾听他们的具体需求，并真正为他们解决这个问题。

And if you only have one, you're going to miss stuff.

如果你只有一个，你就会错过一些东西。

So absolutely, I think you want those two forces together working well.

所以绝对，我认为你希望这两种力量一起运作良好。

And obviously there's different stages, things work differently in different spaces, but I think when it comes to Amplitude, I think there's a huge opportunity here.

显然有不同的阶段，不同的空间中事情的运作方式也不同，但我认为当谈到 Amplitude 时，我认为这里有一个巨大的机会。

Laura Schaffer: I think the key is, and that the challenge for companies that have done the sales thing and are trying to crack into the PLG thing really comes down to how you fundamentally are approaching that space.

Laura Schaffer：我认为关键是，对于已经完成销售工作并试图进入 PLG 领域的公司来说，挑战实际上取决于您如何从根本上接近该领域。

And again, your users and where they're at and the psyche of where they're at, I think a lot of companies will say, "Well okay, hey, we're going to do this PLG stuff.

再说一遍，你的用户、他们所处的位置以及他们所在位置的心理，我想很多公司会说，“好吧，嘿，我们要做 PLG 的东西。

Let's take that sales enterprise whatever offering that we have and let's chop it up a bit and cut access here and cut out this feature here and we're going to slap this plan out and we're going to put a price on it and we'll maybe have hours of debates over whether it's like 10 99 or $104 or 75, and eventually someone will win that battle and slap it on and then ." And anyway, the discussion of the focus is a lot around the product.

让我们以该销售企业提供的任何产品为例，让我们对其进行一些切割，切断这里的访问权限，并在这里删除这个功能，我们将取消这个计划，我们将为其定价，我们可能会就它是 10 99 美元、104 美元还是 75 美元进行数小时的辩论，最终有人会赢得这场战斗，然后把它拍下来，然后……”不管怎样，讨论的焦点很多都是围绕产品展开的。

Laura Schaffer: What are we going to do with this product?

Laura Schaffer：我们要用这个产品做什么？

How are we going to crack it open and shift shift it in and then give it to these people, these users, these visitors?

我们如何将其打开并移入，然后将其提供给这些人、这些用户、这些访客？

And what it's missing, I think is, and a lot of times it's easy to miss, is that when we're doing PLG and we're shifting from sales to PLG, we need to reset.

我认为，它所缺少的是，而且很多时候很容易被忽视的是，当我们进行 PLG 并从销售转向 PLG 时，我们需要重新设置。

We need to recognize that, again, this is sales, sales via the product.

我们需要再次认识到，这是销售，通过产品进行的销售。

What does a good sales rep do when they're engaging?

优秀的销售代表在参与时会做什么？

They understand what the problem is of the person in the space they're talking to.

他们了解与他们交谈的人的问题是什么。

So we need the same thing here.

所以我们在这里需要同样的东西。

What are the unique problems of people who are coming into our self-serve space?

进入我们自助服务空间的人们有哪些独特的问题？

And I think when it comes to a company like Amplitude, a lot of the folks that will be looking to address via the PLG motion, there's a number of things we want to achieve there, but one of the primary things is to tap into the SMV market market and really give them a really startups and give them a space to land and to grow.

我认为，对于像 Amplitude 这样的公司，很多人都希望通过 PLG 动议来解决问题，我们希望在那里实现很多目标，但首要任务之一是进入 SMV 市场，真正为他们提供真正的初创公司，并为他们提供落地和成长的空间。

Laura Schaffer: And again, you have to think what are the challenges and unique problems that they have because we're going to be using our product to settle them.

Laura Schaffer：再说一次，你必须考虑他们面临的挑战和独特问题是什么，因为我们将使用我们的产品来解决这些问题。

We need to meet them where they're at with the problems that they've got.

我们需要与他们会面，解决他们遇到的问题。

And I think one of the things that I've observed from being in all these startups and advising some startups is I very rarely...

我认为我在所有这些初创公司中观察到的一件事是我很少......

I don't think I've ever come across a startup where they have the right number of analysts for their needs.

我认为我从来没有遇到过一家初创公司拥有足够数量的分析师来满足他们的需求。

In fact, a lot of them don't have any.

事实上，他们中的很多人都没有。

And so what that means is that the CEO is being an analyst to create their dashboards for the board and the product manager is being an analyst to figure out what the heck's going on and creating their boards for their product.

这意味着首席执行官是一名分析师，为董事会创建仪表板，而产品经理则是一名分析师，负责弄清楚到底发生了什么，并为他们的产品创建董事会。

Laura Schaffer: And that's happening all over the place is that people are in their roles and they have to be an analysts too.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：这种情况随处可见，人们在扮演自己的角色，同时也必须成为分析师。

And I think that that's a problem that especially younger companies and early stage companies have.

我认为这是一个问题，尤其是年轻的公司和早期公司。

And so when they connect their psyche, what are they caring about?

那么当他们连接心灵时，他们关心的是什么呢？

What are they thinking about when they're sending it for product analytic product or something?

当他们发送产品分析产品或其他东西时，他们在想什么？

They're looking for something that's going to help them feel reassured they're going to be able to actually get to the bottom of the right metrics, create the reports that show things the right way.

他们正在寻找能够帮助他们感到安心的东西，让他们能够真正深入了解正确的指标，创建以正确方式显示事物的报告。

What's the best way to show churn?

显示客户流失的最佳方式是什么？

There's got to be a best way so many people are doing it.

一定有一个最好的方法，很多人都在这样做。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

Yes, there are some really good ways to do it and there are some really successful ways to set up dashboards for the board.

是的，有一些非常好的方法可以做到这一点，并且有一些非常成功的方法可以为董事会设置仪表板。

People have done that too.

人们也这么做了。

Laura Schaffer: There's a lot of that knowledge that exists in one of those frameworks that exist, benchmarking.

Laura Schaffer：现有的框架之一（基准测试）中存在很多此类知识。

Are these numbers even good?

这些数字还好吗？

And so, one of the hypotheses that I have is that if we take that perspective and we understand that that is the problem, that there's a number of things that we can do to really change the way that self-serve experience works to help convert people and show them how Amplitude can make them that powerful.

因此，我的假设之一是，如果我们采取这种观点，并且我们明白这就是问题所在，那么我们可以做很多事情来真正改变自助体验的工作方式，以帮助人们转变并向他们展示 Amplitude 如何使他们变得如此强大。

But the thing that I think sticks across all companies, not just amplitude making the shift, is just that, that when you're doing this, do not think this is a copy paste, but chop it for parts thing.

但我认为所有公司都坚持的事情，不仅仅是振幅造成的转变，就是，当你这样做时，不要认为这是复制粘贴，而是将其切成零件。

Don't start with your product when you're building at your strategy, start with your customers, your users, your prospects, the people who are going to be coming into yourself or flow.

当你制定战略时，不要从你的产品开始，而是从你的客户、你的用户、你的潜在客户、那些将要进入你自己或流动的人开始。

Make sure you are understanding how their problems differ because they do from the people that you're addressing at the sales led side.

确保您了解他们的问题有何不同，因为他们的问题与您在销售领导方面所面对的人员的问题有何不同。

And then make sure that you're orienting your experience of product around those people.

然后确保你的产品体验以这些人为中心。

Lenny: It's interesting that you almost have to start again as a product company, as a product because you may need to solve completely different problems that eventually lead to the same place.

莱尼：有趣的是，作为一家产品公司，作为一个产品，你几乎必须重新开始，因为你可能需要解决完全不同的问题，最终导致同一个地方。

But it's interesting what you're saying that you may end up targeting analysts or PMs.

但有趣的是，你所说的最终可能会针对分析师或产品经理。

I know Amplitude or has always focused on PMs, but-

我知道 Amplitude 或者一直关注 PM，但是-

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, it's right.

劳拉·谢弗：是的，没错。

And there's always nice thing about it is it's in some ways, it does feel like you're starting fresh because you do need to start with the customer again and what's their problem.

它总是有一个好处，那就是在某些方面，它确实感觉你是在重新开始，因为你确实需要再次从客户开始，了解他们的问题是什么。

But in a lot of ways, you can carry over a lot of the same knowledge.

但在很多方面，你可以继承很多相同的知识。

At that point you know what's working well.

那时你就知道什么是有效的。

Amplitude for example, does have a ton of knowledge around what some of the best ways artists set up reports.

例如，Amplitude 确实拥有大量关于艺术家建立报告的最佳方式的知识。

There's a lot of things that they have the momentum going, like where do you choose that momentum and how do you put that and curate that in front of users and make sure that they're getting the right things.

他们有很多事情要做，比如你在哪里选择这种动力，如何将其展示在用户面前并确保他们得到正确的东西。

There's a ton of momentum already there.

已经有很大的动力了。

It's just a little bit about harnessing it and understanding like, yeah, where are the gaps because there are going to be gaps.

只需要一点点利用它并理解，是的，差距在哪里，因为总会有差距。

Laura Schaffer: But anchoring in a customer problem as I think the way that you start any new product, any new thing that you're releasing, should always think about the customer and the pain point.

Laura Schaffer：但是，以客户问题为中心，我认为在启动任何新产品、发布任何新产品时，都应该始终考虑客户和痛点。

So no different than when you're doing PLG for the first time or cracking into it.

因此，与您第一次进行 PLG 或开始尝试 PLG 时没有什么不同。

You need to be thinking again, starting again with the problem, the problems they have, the psyche that they have coming to your space so that you can build something that is going to effectively make them feel like, "Oh you can solve my problem, you get me." And show them how your product's going to do that.

你需要重新思考，从问题开始，他们遇到的问题，他们来到你的空间的心理，这样你就可以构建一些东西，有效地让他们感觉，“哦，你可以解决我的问题，你明白我的意思。”并向他们展示您的产品将如何做到这一点。

Lenny: Final question, and this is around developers.

Lenny：最后一个问题，这是关于开发人员的。

You worked at Twilio, obviously Twilio sold developers.

您在 Twilio 工作过，显然 Twilio 出售的是开发人员。

I think Rapid where you work right before Amplitude also sold developers.

我认为你在 Amplitude 之前工作的 Rapid 也出售了开发人员。

Selling to developers feels like such a hot space right now.

向开发商销售现在感觉是一个热门领域。

There's so many startups that are just building developer tools, such a huge market.

有如此多的初创公司正在构建开发者工具，这是一个巨大的市场。

Used to be not.

以前不是。

Used to be like there's not a market in developers.

以前好像开发商没有市场。

They're not going to spend money, there's not enough of them.

他们不会花钱，因为钱不够。

And now it is a big popular spot.

现在它是一个很受欢迎的地方。

And so I'm curious, what have you learned about building a startup and a product that sells to developers?

所以我很好奇，关于建立一家初创公司和向开发人员销售产品，您学到了什么？

I imagine a lot of founders building search tools would be really curious.

我想很多构建搜索工具的创始人都会非常好奇。

Laura Schaffer: The first is that developers are just a very different audience from any others.

Laura Schaffer：首先，开发者是与其他人截然不同的受众。

I've seen so many people who have come in strong on growth really well or product really well with other audiences and like, "Oh, I'm going to take all those learnings, I'll pivot into serving developers." And as it being a very steep climb because developers are so different.

我见过很多人，他们在增长方面表现出色，或者在其他受众中表现出色，并且产品表现非常出色，他们会说：“哦，我将吸取所有这些经验教训，我将转向为开发人员服务。”这是一个非常陡峭的攀登，因为开发人员是如此不同。

And let me give you a couple just fun facts that make them really different.

让我给你一些有趣的事实，让它们真正与众不同。

And some of these have some interesting stories.

其中一些有一些有趣的故事。

One is developers, almost two, one, do not look at your marketing website at all.

一是开发者，几乎二，一，根本不看你的营销网站。

They go straight to your signup flow.

他们直接进入您的注册流程。

So what that means is all that beautiful context that you're setting and the product aid pricing, all that stuff, very often they're skipping all of it context free and going straight to your signup.

所以这意味着你所设置的所有美丽的背景和产品辅助定价，所有这些东西，他们通常会跳过所有与背景无关的内容并直接进入你的注册。

And so anytime you make an assumption like, "Oh, well, they probably know this coming in to signup." Or like, "Well, we don't need to include, that's on the marketing website." None of that's going to apply to this group of people.

因此，任何时候你都会做出这样的假设：“哦，好吧，他们可能知道要注册。”或者就像，“好吧，我们不需要包含，那是在营销网站上。”这些都不适用于这群人。

Laura Schaffer: They're there.

劳拉·谢弗：他们在那里。

The analogy I have for this group is they're the IKEA buyers who when IKEA package comes, they're not opening up the instruction manual and reading in and then starting to go through, they're in there tearing open the bags and starting to pull the pieces together and trying to build it.

我对这个群体的类比是，他们是宜家买家，当宜家包裹到达时，他们不会打开说明手册并阅读然后开始浏览，他们会在那里撕开袋子并开始将各个部分拉在一起并尝试构建它。

They'll come up for context and steps and such when they get stuck if they're motivated.

如果他们有动力，当他们陷入困境时，他们会提出背景和步骤等。

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

And then another one is just the aversion to talking to sales.

另外一个就是不愿意与销售人员交谈。

And I think hearing that, some they're like, "Oh yeah, well, I hate sales too." When I'm sent out and get bombarded by sales, that's the worst.

我想听到这个消息，有些人会说，“哦，是的，好吧，我也讨厌销售。”当我被派出去并受到销售轰炸时，那是最糟糕的。

I totally get that.

我完全明白。

But developers are on this whole other level.

但开发人员处于完全不同的水平。

There was a fang company sign up for Twilio, built a POC, launched to production, all this, and operated in that space for months without engaging once with sales.

有一家 fang 公司注册了 Twilio，建立了 POC，投入生产，所有这一切，并在该领域运营了几个月，没有参与过销售。

Laura Schaffer: I was trying to reach them and I ended up being the one that talked to them first because they reached out to support because there was something about their delivery that was off ,there missing a feature and they did not want to talk to sales.

Laura Schaffer：我试图联系他们，但最终我成为第一个与他们交谈的人，因为他们寻求支持，因为他们的交付有问题，缺少一个功能，他们不想与销售人员交谈。

They ended up talking to me when I was in product marketing.

当我从事产品营销时，他们最终与我交谈。

And that was my first exposure of like, these people not want to talk to sales.

这是我第一次接触到这些人不想与销售人员交谈。

And then there's another one where a giant retail company where the engineering team signed up with their personal e-mail addresses so they wouldn't get bombarded by sales.

还有另一种情况是，一家大型零售公司的工程团队使用他们的个人电子邮件地址进行注册，这样他们就不会受到销售的轰炸。

It was only later that we found out.

直到后来我们才知道。

Anyway.

反正。

But the thing that's most important, these are fun facts, but the thing that I would say is the most important, the thing to leave with listeners here is what makes them so different?

但最重要的是，这些都是有趣的事实，但我想说的是最重要的，留给听众的是什么让他们如此不同？

Laura Schaffer: Why?

劳拉·谢弗：为什么？

What's the deal here?

这是怎么回事？

And it stems from their charter and their responsibility.

这源于他们的章程和责任。

So if we put ourselves in developer's shoes for a minute, a developer, if a developer is required to use your product, especially if they're the primary user, the primary builder, it's really important to recognize that they're responsible for that.

因此，如果我们将自己置于开发人员的立场上，作为一名开发人员，如果要求开发人员使用您的产品，特别是如果他们是主要用户、主要构建者，那么认识到他们对此负责是非常重要的。

If your service goes down, that's their responsibility.

如果您的服务出现问题，那是他们的责任。

Not just for themselves but their team.

不仅是为了他们自己，也是为了他们的团队。

If the pager wakes up someone because the service they bought from you goes down, that's on them.

如果寻呼机因为某人从您那里购买的服务中断而叫醒他们，那责任就在他们身上。

If, oh, it turns out that doesn't work with the systems that they said it was, well, that's on them.

如果，哦，结果证明这不适用于他们所说的系统，那么，那是他们的责任。

Doesn't integrate with the data the way that everyone wanted it to?

没有按照每个人都希望的方式与数据集成？

That's on them.

那是他们的事。

Everyone lives to developer when it's not working right and it cannot work right.

当开发人员无法正常工作且无法正常工作时，每个人都依赖开发人员。

In so many ways, that's their failure, it can cost them their job, it could cost them the trust to their team.

从很多方面来说，这就是他们的失败，这可能会让他们失去工作，可能会让他们失去对团队的信任。

Laura Schaffer: It cost them their reputation.

劳拉·谢弗：这让他们失去了声誉。

And that means that the stakes are very high for them every time that they're adopting something new.

这意味着每次他们采用新事物时，他们的风险都非常高。

So they can't afford to take someone's word for it.

所以他们不能相信别人的话。

Especially a sales rep who might have some other motivations from their perspective, they can't afford to trust your content or someone's word.

尤其是销售代表，从他们的角度来看，他们可能有其他动机，他们无法相信您的内容或某人的话。

They must do it.

他们必须这样做。

They must prove it themselves.

他们必须自己证明这一点。

And so that's why, for developers to be bought in, they need to do something, build something, a proof of concept at the very least, if not moving further than that.

这就是为什么，对于要被收购的开发商来说，他们需要做一些事情，建造一些东西，至少是一个概念验证，如果不是更进一步的话。

And so that means they're going to be pretty darn deep in their self-serve experience with you before they're ready to commit.

因此，这意味着在他们准备好做出承诺之前，他们将非常深入地了解你的自助服务体验。

And so if you are a company that is providing, that requires developers to build, you must invest in self-serve experiences in order to effectively convert your audience.

因此，如果您是一家提供服务、需要开发人员构建的公司，您必须投资于自助服务体验，以便有效地转化您的受众。

And you should be thinking of them.

你应该想到他们。

Something akin your self-serve function and growth folks, someone akin to Salesforce because your developers are not going to accept sales coming in and trying to convert them at that stage.

类似于您的自助服务功能和增长人员，类似于 Salesforce 的人员，因为您的开发人员不会接受销售进来并试图在那个阶段将其转化。

Lenny: I love that you always come back to the psyche of the user and how in this case, developers like, here's why they're responsible for this thing.

Lenny：我喜欢你总是回到用户的心理，在这种情况下，开发人员喜欢，这就是为什么他们要对这件事负责。

Salespeople are going to convince them this is going to work.

销售人员会说服他们这会起作用。

And it's not.

但事实并非如此。

That's a really interesting tool and that's a really cool takeaway.

这是一个非常有趣的工具，也是一个非常酷的收获。

Lenny: Is there anything else that we didn't cover before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Lenny：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到的吗？

Laura Schaffer: Plenty.

劳拉·谢弗：很多。

I think we covered it all, man.

我想我们已经涵盖了这一切，伙计。

Lenny: You got all my questions and more.

莱尼：你已经回答了我所有的问题以及更多问题。

So with that, welcome to the very exciting lightning round.

那么，欢迎来到非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

莱尼：您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Laura Schaffer: I'm a big believer in happiness.

劳拉·谢弗：我坚信幸福。

Not just being crunchy or we should all be happy, but also because it helps us do our best work and we're more creative and all this.

不仅仅是因为它很脆或者我们都应该感到高兴，而且还因为它可以帮助我们做得最好，我们更有创造力等等。

So one is Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins.

其中之一是 JL Collins 的《简单的财富之路》。

I don't ignore the data, that money is something that often gets in the way of our happiness.

我不会忽视数据，金钱常常成为我们幸福的障碍。

I know so many smart people that just have not figured out the whole managing their finances thing.

我认识很多聪明人，只是没有弄清楚如何管理他们的财务。

And this book will cover all of your basics.

本书将涵盖您的所有基础知识。

It's very easy to read.

它非常容易阅读。

He's got an audiobook that he narrates himself.

他有一本他自己讲述的有声读物。

Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins, he's fantastic.

JL Collins 的《简单的财富之路》，他太棒了。

Lenny: What's a recent movie...

莱尼：最近上映的电影是什么……

Oh wait, wait, there's more?

哦等等，等等，还有更多吗？

Laura Schaffer: Happiness, which is Atomic Habits by James Clear.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：《幸福》是詹姆斯·克莱尔（James Clear）的《原子习惯》。

If you ever want to change something about yourself or something's not quite working for you, this guy will give you a framework to change it.

如果你想改变自己的某些事情或者某些事情不太适合你，这个人会给你一个框架来改变它。

Guaranteed.

有保证。

Lenny: I really enjoyed that book.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢那本书。

That guy's killing it.

那家伙要杀了它。

He was on Tim Ferris, he had a great interview.

他在蒂姆·费里斯节目中，接受了一次很棒的采访。

Folks that don't want to read it, they could listen to that.

不想看的人可以听听。

There's a lot of cool tips there.

那里有很多很酷的技巧。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Laura Schaffer: Unabashedly, the Great British Baking Show.

Laura Schaffer：毫不掩饰，伟大的英国烘焙展。

I love that show.

我喜欢那个节目。

I love that show for all the reasons everyone loves that show.

我喜欢这个节目，因为每个人都喜欢那个节目。

It's heartwarming and makes you feel good and uplifts you.

它温暖人心，让你感觉良好，让你振奋。

But also because it is a competitive show.

还因为这是一场竞技节目。

They're trying to be the best baker and they're out there helping each other.

他们努力成为最好的面包师，并且互相帮助。

They're like a big family.

他们就像一个大家庭。

Most reality competitive TV shows that I see, all of them are like cutthroat, they're sabotaging.

我看过的大多数真人秀电视节目都像残酷的，他们在破坏。

So I'm just endlessly fascinated also by the psychology of what's happening here.

所以我对这里发生的事情的心理学也非常着迷。

I want somebody to do a research paper on it, get to the bottom of why they're all helping each other.

我希望有人就此发表一篇研究论文，深入了解为什么他们互相帮助。

It's wonderful though.

不过这也很棒。

Wonderful to watch.

观看起来很精彩。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

I always comes back to psychology with you.

我总是和你一起回到心理学。

Laura Schaffer: I know.

劳拉·谢弗：我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I feel like I'm really, really sinking deep in there.

我感觉自己真的陷得很深。

And it's true though.

但这是真的。

It's very interesting to me, and I love that show.

这对我来说很有趣，我喜欢那个节目。

Lenny: What's a favorite interview question that you like to ask in interviews?

莱尼：你在面试中最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Laura Schaffer: I love asking about a ship or release that is not cherry-picked by the person you're talking to.

Laura Schaffer：我喜欢询问有关不是由与您交谈的人精心挑选的船舶或版本的问题。

You can get it a lot of different ways.

您可以通过多种不同的方式获得它。

The thing is, everyone has a big success story.

事实是，每个人都有一个巨大的成功故事。

Everyone does.

每个人都这样做。

It really doesn't actually tell you very much to ask someone like, "What's a great thing you released?" Because everyone could tell that.

问别人“你发布了什么很棒的东西？”这样的问题实际上并不能告诉你太多信息。因为每个人都可以说出来。

Instead, take that away.

相反，把它拿走。

What's the most recent ship is a really easy one because recency, time.

最近的船是一个非常简单的船，因为最近的时间。

But there's other things you can do to take that out.

但您还可以采取其他措施来消除这种情况。

Just give them specific parameters for a ship that they've shared or whatever, and that will allow you to listen more and learn more about their frameworks versus the outcomes.

只需向他们提供他们共享的船舶或其他任何东西的具体参数，这将使您能够更多地倾听并了解更多关于他们的框架与结果的信息。

Because if you're picking a random ship, odds are it probably wasn't fantastic.

因为如果你随机选择一艘船，它很可能并不理想。

So they're going to want to talk more about how they approach getting there and that's what you want to know about to know if they're going to succeed, what their frameworks to how they approach things.

因此，他们想要更多地谈论他们如何实现这一目标，这就是你想知道的，了解他们是否会成功，他们处理事情的框架是什么。

Lenny: That is cool.

莱尼：那很酷。

I've never heard that one.

我从来没有听说过这个。

That is a really clever idea.

这是一个非常聪明的主意。

What are five SaaS products that you use in your day-to-day work?

您在日常工作中使用的五种 SaaS 产品是什么？

Can't say Amplitude.

不能说振幅。

Laura Schaffer: I know, right?

劳拉·谢弗：我知道，对吧？

Still learning which ones we have here.

仍在了解我们这里有哪些。

But yeah, I'll just share the ones that I like a lot that I've used elsewhere.

但是，是的，我只会分享我在其他地方使用过的我非常喜欢的那些。

So one is Hotjar.

Hotjar就是其中之一。

Hot Jar also works.

热罐也有效。

Just anything that allows you to put some quick little thing in front of customers, get that qualitative feedback we talked about.

只要能让你快速地将一些小事情摆在客户面前，就能获得我们谈到的定性反馈。

It's a critical, critical supplement to quantitative data to understand what's really causing the change or not causing the change .

它是对定量数据的非常重要的补充，可以帮助我们了解真正导致变化或不导致变化的因素。

So that's important.

所以这很重要。

I will say Amplitude is a fantastic tool that I have used and I would've said that if I hadn't just joined Amplitude so I got to use it...

我会说 Amplitude 是我用过的一个很棒的工具，我会说如果我没有加入 Amplitude，那么我必须使用它......

I know.

我知道。

I got to use it for the first time at Amplitude and it was awesome.

我第一次在 Amplitude 使用它，非常棒。

So again, like asterisk, because I'm like working there now, but I do actually like it.

再说一遍，就像星号一样，因为我现在喜欢在那里工作，但我确实喜欢它。

And Slack, it's boring, everyone says Slack, but I just have to hand it to them.

Slack，很无聊，每个人都说 Slack，但我只能把它交给他们。

Laura Schaffer: It makes life so much easier and just nod their way.

Laura Schaffer：这让生活变得更加轻松，只需点头即可。

And then Builder, which I'll also put in asterisk on that one, but I really want to serve this.

然后是 Builder，我也会在它上面加上星号，但我真的很想提供这个服务。

A lot of people don't know about it and it's really helpful.

很多人不知道它，但它确实很有帮助。

I do advise them so I'm in their corner.

我确实为他们提供建议，所以我站在他们的一边。

But this is another one I also say would be a powerful one.

但这是另一件事，我也说这将是一个强大的。

I think a lot of team gets stuck.

我认为很多团队都陷入了困境。

They're relying on too much in their engineers to make changes.

他们过于依赖工程师来做出改变。

Again, we talk about rapid experimentation, getting these out, out, out.

我们再次谈论快速实验，将这些成果拿出来、拿出来、拿出来。

And Builder makes it really easy for folks to do that.

Builder 使人们可以轻松做到这一点。

Also, a headless CMS, you can drag and drop headless CMS so they do make it easy for non-engineers to make changes.

此外，作为无头 CMS，您可以拖放无头 CMS，因此它们确实使非工程师可以轻松进行更改。

So especially if you're trying to figure out how to get around that 80% that I mentioned, this builder would be a good way.

因此，特别是如果您想弄清楚如何绕过我提到的 80%，那么这个构建器将是一个好方法。

Laura Schaffer: And then yeah, if you want one more, I'll give you Chat GPT, which is really boring and everyone's saying that, but I think I'll just say I don't have any crazy things to say about it except that I do think we all need to figure out how we pull that in to put people who don't do that are probably going to lose out or smart AI whatever bots.

Laura Schaffer：然后，是的，如果你还想要一个，我会给你 Chat GPT，这真的很无聊，每个人都这么说，但我想我只想说我对此没有任何疯狂的事情要说，除了我确实认为我们都需要弄清楚如何将其引入，以让那些不这样做的人可能会失败或智能人工智能机器人。

But that would be it for you, Lenny.

但对你来说就是这样了，莱尼。

But if you ask me in a few months after I've actually been an Amplitude for a bit, I'm sure I'd give you a different answer.

但如果你在我真正加入 Amplitude 一段时间后几个月内问我，我相信我会给你一个不同的答案。

Lenny: That's a good time to plug lennybot.com.

Lenny：现在是接入 lennybot.com 的好时机。

And I wrote a newsletter or Dan Shipper who created the bot wrote a newsletter post about how he built this thing.

我写了一篇时事通讯，或者创建该机器人的 Dan Shipper 写了一篇时事通讯，介绍他如何构建这个东西。

And so you could go ask me questions using the content of my newsletter as answers.

所以你可以用我的时事通讯的内容作为答案来问我问题。

And it's very cool.

这非常酷。

Lennybot.com or lennysbot.com.

Lennybot.com 或 lennysbot.com。

Laura Schaffer: I didn't know about that.

劳拉·谢弗：我不知道这一点。

Well, there you go.

好吧，就这样吧。

I've changed my answer.

我改变了我的答案。

It's that.

就是这样。

Yeah, there we go.

是的，我们开始吧。

That's all I need.: Two more questions.

这就是我所需要的。：还有两个问题。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in your product development process that has had a lot of impact on your team's ability to execute?

您在产品开发过程中进行了哪些相对较小的更改，但对您团队的执行能力产生了很大影响？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, the be embarrassed thing, like I mentioned earlier, be Embarrassed by the first iteration.

Laura Schaffer：是的，令人尴尬的事情，就像我之前提到的，在第一次迭代中感到尴尬。

If you are not embarrassed, you've gone too far.

如果你不感到尴尬，那你就太过分了。

That really speeds up ships and helps people celebrate the unpolished as opposed to feel embarrassed about it.

这确实加快了船舶的速度，并帮助人们庆祝未经打磨的事物，而不是为此感到尴尬。

So just embracing that.

所以就拥抱这一点。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And final question.

最后一个问题。

I know you just started Amplitude, but do you have a favorite pro-tip for how to use Amplitude or maybe Hidden Feature people may not know about?

我知道您刚刚开始使用 Amplitude，但是您有关于如何使用 Amplitude 的最喜欢的专业提示，或者人们可能不知道的隐藏功能吗？

Laura Schaffer: You tell me , but I'll say one thing that was super cool actually that someone put together on my team at Rapid, literally before I left, he put together a video of how powerful Amplitude could be when linked up and integrated with other things like in this case Hotjar and Segment.

Laura Schaffer：你告诉我，但我要说一件非常酷的事情，实际上是我在 Rapid 的团队中有人组织的，在我离开之前，他制作了一段视频，展示了 Amplitude 与其他东西（如本例中的 Hotjar 和 Segment）连接和集成时的强大功能。

There was a Amplitude report that someone had created and there was something that was an anomaly happening there.

有人创建了一份 Amplitude 报告，其中发生了异常情况。

Users were using something in a way we didn't expect and Amplitude one of the reports surface it, but Al Kirsten, we want to know why is that happening.

用户正在以一种我们意想不到的方式使用某些东西，Amplitude 的一份报告揭示了这一点，但 Al Kirsten，我们想知道为什么会发生这种情况。

And so we could find out what the event is and then using by Segment, find out what that name was and look at Hotjar and actually go in and get screencasts of people doing that exact event.

因此，我们可以找出该事件是什么，然后按细分使用，找出该名称是什么，然后查看 Hotjar，并实际进入并获取人们执行该事件的截屏视频。

Laura Schaffer: And from that, we were able to form some really concrete hypotheses about what actually was causing it.

Laura Schaffer：由此，我们能够对实际原因形成一些非常具体的假设。

And so obviously talking to customers is very powerful, but in this case, just that simple use of connecting and threading those technologies together could really get a good picture of that without needing to engage customers.

显然，与客户交谈非常有效，但在这种情况下，只需简单地使用将这些技术连接和串联在一起就可以真正获得良好的了解，而无需吸引客户。

So the tip would be how you can really amplify when you get an amplitude when you use it with.

因此，技巧是当您使用它时获得振幅时如何真正放大。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Laura, we covered a lot of ground, career experimentation, growth, embarrassment, psychology.

劳拉，我们涵盖了很多领域，职业实验、成长、尴尬、心理学。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions, where can folks finding online if they want to reach out, learn more, maybe send you an appreciation or two?

最后两个问题，如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，或者向您表达一两句感谢，可以在哪里在线找到信息？

And two, how can listeners be useful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有用？

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, find me on LinkedIn.

Laura Schaffer：是的，在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

I don't post a lot.

我发帖不多。

Yeah, I'll blame my three children.

是的，我会责怪我的三个孩子。

Eventually, I promise that I will.

最终，我保证我会的。

But I'm pretty good about responding to messages, so definitely link with me there.

但我很擅长回复消息，所以一定要与我联系。

Laura Schaffer: And then what listeners can do, I think I'm always happy to hear feedback, suggestion, all that, but I'll just say I also know that it's a little bit crazy out there right now, especially folks working in tech.

劳拉·谢弗（Laura Schaffer）：那么听众可以做什么，我想我总是很高兴听到反馈、建议等等，但我只想说，我也知道现在有点疯狂，尤其是从事科技工作的人。

So I'm also cognizant what I might be able to do to help all of you.

所以我也知道我可以做些什么来帮助你们所有人。

I know there's a few places I advise and rapids hiring.

我知道有一些地方我会提供建议，并且正在急速招聘。

I know of a few folks that are hiring growth, strong growth people and product folks.

我知道有一些人正在招聘增长型人才、强增长型人才和产品人才。

So if you are interested in learning more about that, don't hesitate to hit me up.

因此，如果您有兴趣了解更多相关信息，请随时联系我。

I want to make sure that I help as many people as I can in that respect because it's trying times and I'm sure you've heard it and read it, but if you're laid off, this is not about you, it's not your fault.

我想确保在这方面我能帮助尽可能多的人，因为这是一个艰难的时期，我相信你已经听过并读过它，但如果你被解雇了，这与你无关，这不是你的错。

It's this crazy world we're in.

我们身处这个疯狂的世界。

Things will get better.

事情会变得更好。

And I would be feel very lucky if I could help even one person land.

如果我能帮助一个人着陆，我就会感到非常幸运。

So feel free to hit me up about that too.

所以也请随时联系我。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And maybe if you share some links, we could include links to open roles in the show notes.

也许如果您分享一些链接，我们可以在演出笔记中包含空缺角色的链接。

Laura Schaffer: Yes.

劳拉·谢弗：是的。

I know there's a few that don't have JDs open yet.

我知道有一些还没有开放 JD。

They're that hot off the press, but I'm happy to surface a few things there for sure because I know that makes it easier for people to know.

它们在媒体上很热门，但我很高兴在那里公开一些事情，因为我知道这会让人们更容易了解。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We will do our best with the show notes then.

届时我们将尽力做好演出笔记。

Laura, thank you again for being here.

劳拉，再次感谢你来到这里。

Laura Schaffer: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Laura Schaffer：是的，非常感谢您邀请我。

This was awesome and so much fun.

这太棒了，而且很有趣。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。