What sets great teams apart | Lane Shackleton (CPO of Coda)

Lane Shackleton: Moments that stretch you or moments that you feel uncomfortable in or you find yourself saying, "Oh shit.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：那些让你紧张的时刻，或者让你感到不舒服的时刻，或者你发现自己说，“哦，糟糕。

I shouldn't be here," or, "I'm under qualified to be here," those are the moments you should be seeking out.

我不应该在这里，”或者，“我没有资格在这里”，这些都是你应该寻找的时刻。

Those are the moments that stretch you and give you a new foundation.

这些时刻可以让你得到伸展并为你奠定新的基础。

So oftentimes you'll hear a career question like, "Hey, do you feel like you're growing in your role?" And that's a very ambiguous, in my opinion, way to ask this question.

你经常会听到这样的职业问题：“嘿，你觉得自己在自己的角色中成长了吗？”在我看来，这是一种非常模棱两可的提问方式。

A much sharper way is like, "Hey, how many, oh shit moments have you had in the last six months, year, two years, and what are they?" I think if you ask yourself that question and the answer is, "It's been a really long time since I've been stretched in some meaningful way or I've felt like I'm under qualified to be there," then it may be worth digging into.

一种更尖锐的方式是，“嘿，在过去的六个月、一年、两年里，你经历过多少个糟糕的时刻，它们是什么？”我想，如果你问自己这个问题，而答案是，“自从我以某种有意义的方式伸展自己以来，已经有很长一段时间了，或者我觉得自己没有资格在那里”，那么它可能值得深入研究。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Lane Shackleton.

今天我的客人是莱恩·沙克尔顿。

Lane is Chief Product Officer at Coda where he's held the role for over eight years.

Lane 是 Coda 的首席产品官，他已担任该职位八年多了。

Before that, he was Group Product Manager at YouTube, a Product Specialist at Google, and as you'll hear, he started his career as an Alaskan mountain guide and then as a manual reviewer of Google AdWords ads.

在此之前，他曾担任 YouTube 的集团产品经理、Google 的产品专家，正如您所知，他的职业生涯始于阿拉斯加登山向导，然后担任 Google AdWords 广告的人工审核员。

Lane is an incredibly deep thinker, very first principles oriented, and has built an incredible product team and culture at Coda.

Lane 是一位极其深刻的思想家，以首要原则为导向，并在 Coda 建立了一支令人难以置信的产品团队和文化。

In part, he's done that by studying the principles and rituals of great product leaders and great product teams.

在某种程度上，他是通过研究优秀产品领导者和优秀产品团队的原则和仪式来做到这一点的。

In our conversation, Lane shares what he's learned, what he's found great PMs and great teams do differently.

在我们的谈话中，莱恩分享了他所学到的东西，他发现优秀的产品经理和优秀的团队会采取不同的做法。

He shares a bunch of his favorite rituals and principles, how you can implement them on your own team, plus a really clever and unique way of understanding if you're making progress in your career, plus so much more.

他分享了一系列他最喜欢的仪式和原则，以及如何在自己的团队中实施它们，以及一种非常聪明且独特的方式来了解您是否在职业生涯中取得了进步，等等。

I could talk to Lane for hours, but we tried to keep this to under an hour and a half.

我可以和莱恩聊几个小时，但我们尽量把时间控制在一个半小时以内。

With that, I bring you Lane Shackleton after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了莱恩·沙克尔顿。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。

Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 不仅可以做到这一切，还可以快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Lenny: Eppo lets you go beyond basic click through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

Lenny：Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击量指标，而是使用北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports tests on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning claims.

Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习声明的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.

请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。

That's geteppo.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

这就是 geteppo.com，它是您实验速度的 10 倍。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Calm, Quora and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Calm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。

By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC2, ISO 27,001, GDPR, HIPAA and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC2、ISO 27,001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny's Podcast 听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.

要了解更多信息并申请折扣，请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Lane, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：莱恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lane Shackleton: So glad to be here.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：很高兴来到这里。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

I've always really admired the way that you write about product, the way you think about product, and it feels like Coda has one of the strongest and also the most thoughtful product teams out there.

我一直非常钦佩你撰写产品的方式，思考产品的方式，感觉 Coda 拥有最强大、最有思想的产品团队之一。

And so I am really excited to have you on here and learn from what you've learned over the years.

因此，我非常高兴您能来到这里并学习您多年来所学到的知识。

My first question is completely unrelated.

我的第一个问题是完全无关的。

I have to ask.

我得问一下。

Your last name's Shackleton.

你的姓氏是沙克尔顿。

Any relation to a certain very famous Antarctic explorer?

与某个非常著名的南极探险家有什么关系吗？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

It's probably distant at best.

最多可能是遥远的。

I wish it was close.

我希望它很接近。

I wish I could claim it was my father or grandfather.

我希望我能声称这是我的父亲或祖父。

But I definitely grew up with those stories and reading a lot about him as a kid.

但我确实是伴随着这些故事长大的，小时候读过很多关于他的故事。

In high school we read Endurance, which is a great book if you haven't read it.

高中时我们读过《耐力》​​，如果你还没有读过的话，这是一本很棒的书。

It's an amazing story.

这是一个了不起的故事。

Very inspiring how he put people first and brought back all of his men from this journey to the South Pole.

他以人为本，并将所有人员从南极之旅中带回，这非常鼓舞人心。

So have taken a lot of lessons from that, but that's as close as I can come to the greatness of Ernest Shackleton.

所以我从中吸取了很多教训，但这已经是我能最接近欧内斯特·沙克尔顿的伟大之处了。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So there's a connection.

所以这是有联系的。

When I think of Shackleton, I also think of the ad that he ran for recruiting people to join his journey.

当我想到沙克尔顿时，我也会想到他为招募人们加入他的旅程而投放的广告。

Low chance of survival, incredibly hard, chance for glory if you succeed, something like that.

生存机会很低，极其困难，如果成功的话就有机会获得荣耀，诸如此类。

Lane Shackleton: It's a wonderful ad.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：这是一个很棒的广告。

I think I had a mug of that when I was a kid.

我想我小时候也喝过一杯。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So on that same topic, I noticed maybe your first job was a mountain guide in Alaska.

因此，在同一主题上，我注意到您的第一份工作可能是阿拉斯加的登山向导。

Was that inspired by this legacy?

是受到这个遗产的启发吗？

And also why did you decide not to pursue that and get into product management?

还有为什么你决定不追求这个目标并进入产品管理领域？

Completely different life.

完全不同的生活。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Very, very different.

非常非常不同。

Very different time.

非常不同的时间。

Didn't have kids back then.

那时还没有孩子。

I think I was convinced at the time I wanted a career outside.

我想我当时就确信自己想在外面谋一份职业。

Just loved spending time in the mountains and climbing, things like that.

只是喜欢在山里度过时光和攀岩之类的事情。

To be honest, I wasn't the best guide.

说实话，我不是最好的向导。

There were a lot of amazing guides out there that just had ...

那里有很多很棒的指南......

They were almost invincible in terms of their ability to climb for 20, 30 hours.

他们20、30个小时的攀爬能力几乎是无敌的。

But I learned a lot from the experience and maybe the quick story on why I stopped guiding.

但我从这次经历中学到了很多东西，也许还有关于我为什么停止指导的简短故事。

I was on what is a dream trip for mountain guides, which is we were flown to a remote portion of southeast Alaska.

我正在进行一次对于登山向导来说是梦想的旅行，我们飞到了阿拉斯加东南部的偏远地区。

It's an hour long flight.

这是一个小时的飞行。

Mountain called Mount Fairweather.

山名叫费尔威瑟山。

Beautiful 15,000 foot peak.

美丽的 15,000 英尺山峰。

And as a part of climbing on glaciers one of the things that you do for context is you're roped to another person.

作为攀登冰川的一部分，你为背景所做的一件事就是你被绳子绑在另一个人身上。

And the reason that you do that is because if someone falls in a crevasse, you want to be able to stop them or pull them out.

你这样做的原因是，如果有人掉进裂缝，你希望能够阻止他们或将他们拉出来。

Lane Shackleton: So I was roped to a very nice client that I was guiding and he fell pretty close to the top on our way down.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：所以我被拴在一个非常好的客户身边，我正在引导他，他在我们下山的过程中非常接近山顶。

And luckily we were able to self-arrest and arrest that fall.

幸运的是，那年秋天我们能够自我逮捕并被捕。

But I spent probably the next six hours walking down that mountain thinking the same thing over and over again, which is I really don't want to die roped to someone that I barely know and don't trust or love.

但我可能在接下来的六个小时里走下那座山，一遍又一遍地思考同样的事情，那就是我真的不想被一个我几乎不认识、不信任或不爱的人束缚着死去。

So that was the last season that I guided.

那是我指导的最后一个赛季。

But tons of great memories and learnings and I think it impacted my life in a pretty significant way.

但大量美好的回忆和学习，我认为它对我的生活产生了相当重大的影响。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

Software much lower stakes.

软件的风险要低得多。

I guess just while we're on this topic, is there any parallels or big lesson you learned from that experience that you bring to product?

我想就在我们讨论这个主题时，您从为产品带来的经验中学到了什么相似之处或重要的教训吗？

Lane Shackleton: One is just preparation.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：一是准备。

I think when you go climbing or when you guide climbing, you spend months and months preparing for usually a few days of climbing.

我认为当你去攀岩或指导攀岩时，你会花费数月甚至数月的时间为通常几天的攀登做准备。

So there's that kind of preparation.

所以就有了这样的准备。

There's also just a million checklists.

还有一百万个清单。

So before you go on an expedition, you may check a checklist of all your equipment, stuff like that a dozen times or more.

所以在你去探险之前，你可能会检查你所有装备的清单，诸如此类的东西十几次或更多次。

So you ensure redundancy across all your systems.

因此，您可以确保所有系统的冗余。

So that was definitely a parallel.

所以这绝对是一个平行的。

The other thing I think about a lot is just how to stay calm in challenging or scary scenarios.

我经常思考的另一件事是如何在充满挑战或可怕的情况下保持冷静。

We had another instance where I had a client pull a big chunk of rock off and break their feet and I was the junior guide on that particular instance and the more senior guide looked at me, looked at the situation and was like, "Okay, we're getting this guy out of here right now." Put him on his back and we basically took turns carrying him out for a couple miles I'll just never forget instances like that where the clarity of stay calm, assess the situation, prioritize, take action.

我们还有另一个例子，我让一个客户拉下一大块石头，摔断了他们的脚，我是那个特定例子中的初级导游，更高级的导游看着我，看看情况，然后说，“好吧，我们现在就让这个人离开这里。”将他放在背上，我们基本上轮流背着他走了几英里，我永远不会忘记这样的情况，其中明确保持冷静，评估情况，确定优先顺序，采取行动。

There's a mini version of that when you're building software, I think.

我认为，当你构建软件时，会有一个迷你版本。

So experiences like that, I think, even though I only did it for a handful of summers, were pretty profound.

因此，我认为，尽管我只经历了几个夏天，但这样的经历却是相当深刻的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

What a very different life that life path would've been.

那样的人生道路将会是多么不同啊。

Lenny: Oh, man.

莱尼：哦，伙计。

So you mentioned your writing, you mentioned that this is something you want to write about.

所以你提到了你的写作，你提到这是你想写的东西。

Shifting to the core topic of our chat, it's very clear that you spent a lot of time studying how great product managers operate and how great product teams operate.

转到我们聊天的核心话题，很明显，您花了很多时间研究优秀的产品经理如何运作以及优秀的产品团队如何运作。

You've been doing a bunch of writing on the principles of great product management and also the rituals of great teams.

您已经写了很多关于优秀产品管理原则以及优秀团队的仪式的文章。

And so I want to spend a bunch of time trying to extract as much as I can from your learning so that listeners can learn.

因此，我想花大量时间尝试从您的学习中提取尽可能多的内容，以便听众可以学习。

Essentially what are principles of great product managers, what are rituals of great teams and generally how do the best teams operate?

本质上，伟大的产品经理的原则是什么，伟大的团队的仪式是什么，以及最好的团队通常如何运作？

And my first question is just why is this something that you started doing?

我的第一个问题是你为什么开始做这件事？

What pulled you into spending so much time and effort trying to understand how the best teams and people operate?

是什么促使您花费如此多的时间和精力来尝试了解最好的团队和人员的运作方式？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I've been asking myself that question a little bit lately.

我最近一直在问自己这个问题。

There's a few reasons.

有几个原因。

One reason is I just found myself giving a similar set of advice in one on ones.

一个原因是我刚刚发现自己在一对一中给出了一套类似的建议。

And so I think anytime you find as a leader yourself repeating the same lessons, it should be a good flag to say like, oh, I should probably scale this in some way.

因此，我认为，每当你发现作为领导者自己重复相同的教训时，这应该是一个很好的标志，比如说，哦，我应该以某种方式扩展这一点。

And as you know, as soon as you write something down, you have to clarify your own thinking and so it becomes very useful for that.

正如你所知，一旦你写下一些东西，你就必须澄清自己的想法，因此它对此非常有用。

And I don't think I quite expected how useful it would be in that sense.

我想我并没有预料到它在这个意义上会有多大用处。

Writing something down and then putting it out there, you start to get feedback back of where you might've been right or where you might not be right.

把一些东西写下来然后放在那里，你就会开始得到反馈，告诉你哪些地方可能是对的，哪些地方可能不对。

And so for me it's been a good learning experience there as well.

所以对我来说，那里也是一次很好的学习经历。

I think the second reason is I've always been pretty frustrated with career ladders.

我认为第二个原因是我一直对职业阶梯感到非常沮丧。

Most companies have career ladders with 10 or 15 levels and as soon as they hit some scale levels, there's levels between levels and I feel like I looked at the one at Google and you needed a PhD to decipher it and interpret how to operate within it.

大多数公司都有 10 或 15 个级别的职业阶梯，一旦达到一定的规模级别，级别之间就会有级别，我觉得我看了谷歌的职业阶梯，你需要一个博士学位才​​能破译它并解释如何在其中运作。

Lane Shackleton: And so that's one piece of the construct.

Lane Shackleton：这就是结构的一部分。

If you think more broadly though, they aren't consistent across companies, so now you're in a situation where you're in your version of the rat race.

但如果你从更广泛的角度思考，不同公司之间的做法并不一致，所以现在你正处于你自己版本的激烈竞争之中。

And so I found that I basically wanted to have a broader set of principles that transcended level.

所以我发现我基本上想要一套更广泛、超越层次的原则。

So things that could be true when you are an ICPM starting your career and things that can also be true when you're the head of product or running a product team or things like that.

因此，当您作为 ICPM 开始您的职业生涯时，这些事情可能是正确的，当您是产品负责人或管理产品团队或类似的事情时，这些事情也可能是正确的。

That's one.

这是一个。

I won't rant further on that but I think that's one piece of it.

我不会对此进一步咆哮，但我认为这就是其中的一部分。

Lane Shackleton: And then I think the last reason I'll mention is I was pretty inspired by a talk that is by this guy named Brett Victor, who's like a prototyper thinker.

Lane Shackleton：然后我想我要提到的最后一个原因是我受到了一个名叫 Brett Victor 的演讲的启发，他就像一个原型思想家。

May have heard of his work.

可能听说过他的作品。

He has this talk called Inventing on Principle.

他的演讲名为《原则发明》。

And in the early days of Coda, one of our first designers, this guy Jeremy Britten, showed this talk to the company and my mind was blown.

在 Coda 的早期，我们的第一位设计师 Jeremy Britten 向公司展示了这个演讲，我的心大为震惊。

And I think it was one of those examples of someone developing a clear view of what principles they should operate with and then following that principle.

我认为这是一个例子，说明有人对他们应该遵循的原则有一个清晰的认识，然后遵循该原则。

And it was just a meta example of how important it is and how impactful it can be when you decide on a principle and then follow it.

这只是一个元示例，说明当您决定一项原则并遵循它时，它的重要性以及它的影响力有多大。

And so ever since then I've been thinking what are my principles as it pertains to building software and other things.

从那时起，我一直在思考我在构建软件和其他事物方面的原则是什么。

So those are the three reasons that led me to start writing these things down.

这就是促使我开始写下这些事情的三个原因。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We're going to find that talk and link to it in the show notes.

我们将在节目笔记中找到该演讲并链接到它。

I want to ask about what principles you've come to, but I also want to understand how you actually ended up doing ladders and performance review stuff at Coda.

我想问一下你得出了哪些原则，但我也想了解你实际上是如何在 Coda 做阶梯和绩效评估的。

Would it be better to talk about that later after we go through some of these things or is there something you want to share first of just how you think about it at Coda?

是不是在我们经历了一些事情之后再讨论这个问题会更好？或者您想首先分享一些您在 Coda 的想法吗？

Lane Shackleton: When we were doing career ladders, first of all, we put it off for quite a bit of time and that was based on the advice of a lot of other leaders that said as soon as you introduce this, then the incentives flip from being company focused to being individual focused.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：当我们在做职业阶梯时，首先，我们推迟了相当长的一段时间，这是基于许多其他领导者的建议，他们说一旦引入这一点，那么激励措施就会从以公司为中心转变为以个人为中心。

So I think we delayed it for a good bit of time.

所以我认为我们推迟了很长一段时间。

There came a time where we decided, "Hey look, we really do need to provide better guidance here about what it means to grow and what it means to be great." And so about the same time we were doing the levels thing I started writing down some of the principles that I've been publishing.

有一段时间，我们决定，“嘿，看，我们确实需要在这里提供更好的指导，了解成长意味着什么以及变得伟大意味着什么。”因此，大约在我们进行关卡工作的同时，我开始写下一些我一直在发布的原则。

One of the things that I think about a lot when talking about levels is just how to keep everyone oriented toward their team and their company.

在谈论级别时，我经常思考的事情之一就是如何让每个人都以他们的团队和公司为导向。

And I think that we've done a really good job of that over the years.

我认为多年来我们在这方面做得非常好。

So levels aren't by any means at the forefront of any company discussion.

因此，级别无论如何都不是任何公司讨论的首要内容。

In fact, we don't use titles that much.

事实上，我们并不经常使用标题。

Lenny: You said that it's not specific to role.

Lenny：你说过这不是特定于角色的。

Do you mean the same leveling attributes are the same from design and product and engineering?

您的意思是说设计、产品和工程中的相同等级属性是相同的吗？

Lane Shackleton: We basically have five levels and we call them role stages and they go from apprentice to principal.

Lane Shackleton：我们基本上有五个级别，我们称之为角色阶段，从学徒到校长。

So apprentice is ...

那么徒弟是...

Rope analogy here is learns about rope.

这里的绳子比喻是学习绳子。

Practitioner is can tie basic knots, shown complex knots.

练习者可以打基本结，也可以打复杂结。

Given a problem, they can do it.

遇到问题，他们就能做到。

Career is you can calculate rope strength.

职业就是你可以计算绳子的强度。

You know a lot about knots.

你对结了解很多。

Principal is basically invented nylon.

主要是发明尼龙。

So the bar is really, really high for principal in these levels and I think that that's appropriate.

因此，对于这些级别的校长来说，门槛真的非常高，我认为这是合适的。

It should be aspirational that the bar is exceptionally high at the highest level of our role stages.

我们的角色阶段的最高水平的标准非常高，这应该是令人向往的。

I find it's a pretty good process to draw maybe a little bit of contrast with other companies.

我发现这是一个非常好的过程，可以与其他公司进行一些对比。

I think most other companies, especially large companies have 10 to 15 levels.

我认为大多数其他公司，尤其是大公司都有10到15个级别。

I think we've made a really conscious choice to have only five.

我认为我们做出了一个非常有意识的选择，只拥有五个。

I think the other bit of contrast I would draw is basically role stages are not visible across the whole company.

我认为我要画的另一点对比是，整个公司的角色阶段基本上是不可见的。

We're not showing levels of any individual PM or designer, and that's partially because we just don't want to put a big focus on it.

我们没有展示任何个人产品经理或设计师的水平，部分原因是我们不想过多关注它。

And then probably the biggest difference is we have a centralized compensation committee and that's who decides compensation and so it's not the manager that drives your compensation.

然后最大的区别可能是我们有一个集中的薪酬委员会，由该委员会决定薪酬，因此不是经理决定你的薪酬。

So those are some differences.

这些是一些差异。

Lenny: Super cool.

莱尼：超级酷。

I've never seen it done this way before.

我以前从未见过这样做的。

I think it's an awesome example of first principles thinking, which I see a lot come out from your product team.

我认为这是第一性原理思维的一个很棒的例子，我看到你们的产品团队有很多这样的想法。

And then just to make sure I heard you right, these five stages are roughly the same across role, so designers have the same five and they're described similarly.

然后为了确保我没听错，这五个阶段在不同的角色中大致相同，因此设计师有相同的五个阶段，并且它们的描述也相似。

Lane Shackleton: That's right.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：没错。

They're described similarly at a high level, but then the specifics if you get into it are a little bit different.

它们在高层次上的描述是相似的，但是如果你深入了解的话，具体细节会有点不同。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm going to ask about what the principles are, or a few of them that you can share.

我将询问其中的原则是什么，或者您可以分享其中的一些原则。

But one other very tactical question.

但还有一个非常战术性的问题。

At what size of product teams, say just PMs, did you start to develop this framework?

您开始开发这个框架的产品团队规模是多少（比如只有 PM）？

Lane Shackleton: We were probably at 20-ish PMs and designers when we did that.

Lane Shackleton：当我们这样做时，我们的产品经理和设计师可能都在 20 岁左右。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So let me just ask, what are some of these principles you've narrowed it on as principles of great product managers?

那么我想问一下，您将哪些原则缩小为优秀产品经理的原则？

Lane Shackleton: Maybe it's helpful to start with a little higher level context on the unifying thesis.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：也许从统一论文的更高层次背景开始会有所帮助。

I think the unifying thesis is the core job of a product person in general is to turn ambiguity into clarity.

我认为统一论点是产品人员的核心工作，一般来说就是将模糊性转化为清晰性。

And if you think about the job of a product leader or a product manager, everything is ambiguous all the time.

如果你想想产品负责人或产品经理的工作，一切总是模棱两可的。

It's like what's my role on this team?

就像我在这个团队中的角色是什么？

What problem are we solving?

我们要解决什么问题？

Who's the target customer?

目标客户是谁？

What prototype is going to solve this particular problem?

什么原型可以解决这个特定问题？

So it's literally everything.

所以这实际上就是一切。

And so if you're going to do the job well, you really need to get good at spotting ambiguity and turning it into clarity.

因此，如果你想做好这项工作，你确实需要善于发现歧义并将其变得清晰。

And so the obvious question that follows from that is okay, great, that sounds like a great Hallmark card, but how do you actually do that?

因此，随之而来的明显问题是好的，很棒，这听起来像是一张很棒的霍尔马克卡，但你实际上是如何做到这一点的呢？

And so I think the principles that I've been writing down are very personal.

因此，我认为我所写下的原则是非常个人化的。

They're my take on how to do this.

它们是我对如何做到这一点的看法。

Lane Shackleton: So the first one that I wrote about was systems not goals.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：所以我写的第一个是系统而不是目标。

And one of the ways that I started this post ...

我开始这篇文章的方式之一......

I'm a big fan of getting inspiration from outside of tech and so one of the stories that I tell is basically the story of Jerry Seinfeld.

我非常喜欢从科技之外获取灵感，所以我讲的故事之一基本上就是杰里·宋飞 (Jerry Seinfeld) 的故事。

If you haven't seen the documentary Comedian, it's amazing, it's definitely worth watching.

如果你还没有看过纪录片《喜剧演员》，那真是太棒了，绝对值得一看。

But the story goes, he's done Seinfeld the show and he's got all this material from the last 15 years and he comes in one day and he says, "Look, I'm going to throw away all my material and I'm going to start fresh." And this is unheard of in comedy for someone to just throw away all their old material and start fresh.

但故事是这样的，他完成了《宋飞正传》这部剧，他得到了过去 15 年的所有这些材料，有一天他进来时说，“听着，我要扔掉所有材料，我要重新开始。”对于有人扔掉所有旧材料并重新开始的人来说，这在喜剧中是闻所未闻的。

And so the question is what does he do next?

所以问题是他接下来要做什么？

And the thing that he does is he sets a goal, which is basically to build up to an hour of material again.

他所做的就是设定一个目标，基本上就是再次积累一个小时的材料。

Lane Shackleton: But the goal isn't that important.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：但目标并不那么重要。

What's important here is the system.

这里重要的是系统。

So the system that he uses is he writes for an hour every morning, doesn't write for more if he doesn't want to, and then he goes and performs at night.

所以他采用的制度是每天早上写一个小时，不想写就不再写，然后晚上就去表演。

And so when you rinse and repeat that system, do it hundreds of times, that's how he builds up from five minutes to 15 minutes to 30 minutes of material.

因此，当你冲洗并重复该系统时，要做数百次，这就是他如何积累从 5 分钟到 15 分钟到 30 分钟的材料。

And so I think that I take a lot of inspiration from that and I think product people can generally, which is instead of being obsessed with the goal, be obsessed with the system that gets you there.

所以我认为我从中得到了很多灵感，我认为产品人员通常可以专注于帮助你实现目标的系统，而不是痴迷于目标。

And so the phrase I sometimes use is goals with good intentions don't work.

所以我有时用的一句话是，善意的目标是行不通的。

I really need to give a common example.

我真的需要举一个常见的例子。

A really common example is teams that are trying to learn about customers or do research.

一个非常常见的例子是试图了解客户或进行研究的团队。

And one thing I've observed is a team may have a goal like an OKR of talking to 10 customers this quarter and they may or may not hit that OKR.

我观察到的一件事是，一个团队可能有一个目标，比如本季度与 10 名客户交谈的 OKR，他们可能会也可能不会达到该 OKR。

And then if you watch closely, the next quarter, they may not have a goal of talking to customers anymore.

然后，如果你仔细观察，下个季度，他们可能不再有与客户交谈的目标。

And so their learning is going up and down.

所以他们的学习成绩有起有落。

Lane Shackleton: And to draw a contrast, that's just really different than a team that has some default on system for talking to customers.

Lane Shackleton：为了进行对比，这与在与客户交谈的系统上有一些默认设置的团队确实不同。

Every few times a week they're talking to customers for whatever reason.

无论出于何种原因，他们每周都会与客户交谈几次。

And the impact of that is really hard to see until you understand that the latter team tends to have really good product instincts or really good customer instincts.

除非您了解后一个团队往往具有非常好的产品直觉或非常好的客户直觉，否则很难看出其影响。

It's because they've just had this default on mindset of talking to customers.

这是因为他们默认了与客户交谈的心态。

And in the early days of Coda, we actually did something similar.

在 Coda 的早期，我们实际上做了类似的事情。

We had a time allotted on Fridays and it was basically, it was on the calendar a customer or a potential customer was coming in and so you knew that it was going to happen and you had to have something to show.

我们在周五分配了一个时间，基本上，日历上有一位客户或潜在客户进来，所以你知道这将会发生，你必须有一些东西可以展示。

And so sometimes we'd be scrambling the three hours before to have a prototype ready for a customer.

因此，有时我们会在前三个小时争先恐后地为客户准备好原型。

Sometimes we would've had something that we've been baking for a while.

有时我们会吃一些已经烤了一段时间的东西。

But the point is that it was default on.

但重点是它是默认打开的。

And so the way that we developed good customer instincts was not the goal, it was really just the system behind it.

因此，我们培养良好的客户直觉的方式并不是我们的目标，它实际上只是其背后的系统。

So that's one that I'm passionate about and I think it also translates into a lot of the rituals that we talk a lot about.

所以这是我所热衷的，我认为它也转化为我们经常谈论的许多仪式。

Lenny: There's so many directions I can go with this.

莱尼：我可以选择很多方向。

I really like this one.

我真的很喜欢这个。

It reminds me of something I did at Airbnb where we had a lunch with a host every Friday with the team and we had a community person find someone in San Francisco that's a host.

这让我想起了我在 Airbnb 所做的一件事，我们每周五与团队一起与房东共进午餐，我们让社区人员在旧金山找到了一个房东。

And there's no agenda, it's just let's have lunch and meet the team.

没有任何议程，只是让我们共进午餐并与团队见面。

Curious what you're wondering.

好奇你想知道什么。

Lenny: And Airbnb hosts are always so nice and has such a pleasant experience.

Lenny：Airbnb 的房东总是那么友善，并且给我们带来了如此愉快的体验。

Also makes me think about this book, The Score Takes Care of Itself.

也让我想起了这本书，《分数会照顾好自己》。

Lenny: Where it's just do the fundamentals and you'll win?

莱尼：只要做好基础知识，你就能赢？

Lenny: The other thing it reminds me of is I have this quote hanging in my office here.

莱尼：它让我想起的另一件事是我的办公室里挂着这句话。

I Believe it's from the Rick Rubin book.

我相信这是来自里克·鲁宾的书。

And the quote is, "The object isn't to make art, it's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable."

引言是：“我们的目标不是创造艺术，而是处于一种美妙的状态，让艺术成为必然。”

Lenny: I feel like you just changed art-

莱尼：我觉得你刚刚改变了艺术——

Lenny: Oh my god, it's so good.

莱尼：哦天哪，太棒了。

Just every section is this quotable thing I want ...

每个部分都是我想要的可引用的东西......

I need to hold onto this thing.

我需要抓住这件事。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

He's got a great thing on listening.

他非常善于倾听。

I really admire what he says about listening and I think that a lot of PMs could take that lesson, which is-

我真的很钦佩他关于倾听的说法，我认为很多产品经理都可以吸取这个教训，那就是——

Lane Shackleton: The way he talks about it is essentially you want to listen and absorb every fragment of what that person is saying, including their body language and everything else, and try to turn off the side which is crafting your response or figuring out what you're going to say next or what the problem with their argument is or whatever.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：他谈论这个问题的方式本质上是你想要倾听并吸收那个人所说的话的每一个片段，包括他们的肢体语言和其他一切，并尝试关闭那些正在精心设计你的回应或弄清楚你接下来要说什么或他们的论点有什么问题的一方。

It's quite hard to do.

这是很难做到的。

Because your default mode is always the next step of the conversation.

因为您的默认模式始终是对话的下一步。

But I think if you can really challenge yourself, like he says, to pause and really try to internalize holistically what that person's saying, it's pretty powerful.

但我认为，如果你能真正挑战自己，就像他说的那样，停下来并真正尝试全面内化那个人所说的话，那是非常强大的。

Lenny: I was actually just reading that chapter and the next chapter is about this idea of the beginner's mind.

莱尼：实际上我刚刚读了这一章，下一章是关于初学者思想的想法。

I don't know if you remember that.

我不知道你还记不记得。

I feel like people get sniped by Rick Rubin stuff.

我觉得人们被里克·鲁宾的东西狙击了。

But anyway, I'm going to go down this thread.

但无论如何，我要继续这个话题。

He talks about how AlphaZero or AlphaGo, the first AI thing that beat humans at Go and how there was this move it made, move 37 in the game that was just like ...

他谈到了 AlphaZero 或 AlphaGo，第一个在围棋比赛中击败人类的人工智能，以及它是如何做出这一步的，在游戏中的第 37 步就像......

The person the AI was playing walked out of the room.

人工智能扮演的人走出了房间。

He's like, "I don't even know what just happened.

他就像是，“我什至不知道刚刚发生了什么。

This is out of anything I've ever imagined." And it won.

这超出了我的想象。”它赢了。

And the lesson there it was trained not on what we've learned, but it trained itself and figured things out from first principles and then came up with this thing we've never even comprehended.

那里的课程不是根据我们所学的内容进行训练的，而是根据第一原理进行自我训练并找出问题，然后提出我们从未理解过的东西。

And so it's a really good example of the power of coming from a beginner's mind and not being influenced by what's already been done.

因此，这是一个很好的例子，说明了来自初学者的思想的力量，并且不受已经完成的事情的影响。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

We have a walkthrough ritual that we do.

我们有一个演练仪式。

Lane Shackleton: The prompt is essentially put yourself in the shoes of someone who knows nothing about this topic whatsoever and have beginner's mind and then walk through with five or 10 people watching you and let's fix all the problems that we see.

Lane Shackleton：提示本质上是让你自己站在一个对这个话题一无所知、具有初学者思维的人的立场上，然后在 5 到 10 个人的注视下走过一遍，让我们解决我们看到的所有问题。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I want to talk about rituals.

我想谈谈仪式。

We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.

我们有点超前了。

Is there any other principles that you can share either just on a high level or in depth that you've come across?

您是否还可以高层次或深入地分享您遇到的任何其他原则？

And I know people can go to your Substack and read this.

我知道人们可以去你的子堆栈并阅读这篇文章。

And by the way, what's your Substack URL for people that want to check it out?

顺便问一下，对于想要查看的人来说，您的 Substack URL 是什么？

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

We'll definitely link into it.

我们一定会链接到它。

Yeah.

是的。

Any other principles?

还有其他原则吗？

Lane Shackleton: I think the other one is cathedrals, not bricks, and then the other one is proactive, not reactive.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我认为另一个是大教堂，而不是砖块，另一个是主动的，而不是被动的。

Cathedrals, not bricks I think is a classic one.

我认为大教堂，而不是砖块才是经典。

I think I had a moment of realization and talking to Shishir in a one-on-one when I was at YouTube bemoaning the fact that my team wasn't performing to the potential that I thought they had.

当我在 YouTube 上哀叹我的团队没有发挥出我认为的潜力时，我想我有一个恍然大悟的时刻，并与 Shishir 进行了一对一的交谈。

And he had a very pointed and unexpected question, which is like, "Do they know their cathedral?

他有一个非常尖锐和意想不到的问题，就像，“他们知道他们的大教堂吗？

Do they have a cathedral?" And I'm sitting there like, "Man, what are you talking about?

他们有大教堂吗？”我坐在那里，“伙计，你在说什么？

We're talking about performing as a team and you're asking me about cathedrals." And then he explained the cathedral story, which I can talk about.

我们正在谈论团队合作，而你却问我关于大教堂的事情。”然后他解释了大教堂的故事，我可以谈谈。

In that-

在那——

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

The cathedral story is basically you walk up to three people, they're laying bricks.

大教堂的故事基本上是你走到三个人面前，他们正在砌砖。

You ask the first person, "What are you doing?" They say, "Well, I take the bricks from over here and I put them on that sack over there." You ask the second person, "What are you doing?" They say, "Well, I take this little cement and I put it on top of the brick that that person lays." You ask the third person, "What are you doing?" And they say, "Well, we're building a cathedral." And the core insight here is that you want your teams to feel like they're building a cathedral and not laying bricks.

你问第一个人：“你在做什么？”他们说：“好吧，我从这里拿走砖块，然后把它们放在那边的袋子里。”你问第二个人：“你在做什么？”他们说：“好吧，我把这个小水泥放在那个人铺设的砖块上。”你问第三个人：“你在做什么？”他们说：“好吧，我们正在建造一座大教堂。”这里的核心洞察是，你希望你的团队感觉他们是在建造一座大教堂，而不是砌砖。

And I think it's really, really easy to do when PMs are really busy on a day-to-day to just be one task after the other, really execution oriented and maybe not take the time to help the team take a broader frame, open the aperture a little bit and have a view of what the cathedral is.

我认为，当 PM 每天都非常忙碌，只做一项又一项任务，真正以执行为导向，可能不会花时间帮助团队采取更广泛的框架，稍微打开一点光圈并了解大教堂是什么时，这真的非常容易做到。

And I think we've learned many times that one unexpected bit of this is that everybody needs to see a different facet of the cathedral.

我想我们已经多次了解到，其中一个意想不到的一点是每个人都需要看到大教堂的不同方面。

Lane Shackleton: So very often ...

莱恩·沙克尔顿：很多时候......

And I've made this mistake before plenty of times.

我之前已经犯过很多次这样的错误了。

Very often people will do a great writeup on vision or strategy or whatever it is and the result is people can't quite see their version of what this broader arc is or this broader cathedral is.

很多时候，人们会写一篇关于愿景或策略或其他什么的精彩文章，结果是人们无法完全理解他们对这个更广泛的弧线或这个更广泛的大教堂的看法。

And so one of the things that we have tried to do when we go through big planning cycles is show all the different sides of this.

因此，当我们经历大型规划周期时，我们尝试做的事情之一就是展示这一点的所有不同方面。

So instead of just having a writeup, we may have a writeup, we may couple that with a metric, we may couple that with directional mocks and what the billboard might look like or how our homepage may change.

因此，我们不只是写一篇文章，我们可能会有一篇文章，我们可以将其与指标结合起来，我们可以将其与定向模拟以及广告牌可能的外观或我们的主页可能如何变化结合起来。

And really what we're trying to do is take the mystery out of the set of broader constraints or where we're headed.

事实上，我们正在尝试做的就是将谜团从一系列更广泛的限制或我们的发展方向中解开。

I think great product teams and great PM leaders tend to always orient their teams towards a broader cathedral as opposed to laying bricks.

我认为优秀的产品团队和优秀的 PM 领导者往往总是将他们的团队导向更广阔的大教堂，而不是砌砖。

Lenny: Such a beautiful metaphor.

莱尼：真是一个美丽的比喻。

Reminds me of this other quote I just looked up while you're chatting.

让我想起了我刚刚在你聊天时查到的另一句话。

"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders.

“如果你想建造一艘船，不要召集人们去拾柴、分工和发号施令。

Instead teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea."

而是教他们向往广阔无际的大海。”

Lane Shackleton: Classic.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：经典。

Classic.

经典的。

It's Antoine.

是安托万。

Lenny: That is right.

莱尼：是的。

Antoine de St. Exupery.

安托万·德·圣埃克苏佩里。

Okay.

好的。

Something I was curious about as you were chatting also is for folks that want to develop their own principles and define how they want to think about products, is there anything you found to be useful in helping emerge these into principles that you can come to?

在你们聊天时我很好奇的是，对于那些想要制定自己的原则并定义他们如何思考产品的人来说，您发现有什么东西可以帮助您将这些原则转化为原则吗？

Is it just sitting around thinking?

难道只是坐着思考吗？

Is there anything else you've done that has helped you define these things?

您还做过其他什么事情来帮助您定义这些事情吗？

Lane Shackleton: Probably two things.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：可能有两件事。

One is reading really broadly.

一是广泛阅读。

So I think not just reading PM style literature.

所以我认为不仅仅是阅读PM风格的文献。

Like I said, I tend to get a lot of inspiration from outside of tech.

就像我说的，我倾向于从科技之外获得很多灵感。

I think that's one thing.

我认为这是一回事。

I think the other thing is insofar as you get the opportunity to mentor other people, think about what you're saying to these people.

我认为另一件事是，当你有机会指导其他人时，想想你对这些人说的话。

Think about, okay, this person came to me with this challenge.

想一想，好吧，这个人带着这个挑战来找我。

What was my response?

我的反应是什么？

Why was that my response?

为什么我的反应是这样的？

Am I giving that response a lot of times?

我是否多次给出这样的回应？

Okay, maybe this is a more deeply held belief.

好吧，也许这是一个更根深蒂固的信念。

So I think noticing those instances was helpful for me.

所以我认为注意到这些情况对我很有帮助。

Lenny: Are there any books or topics or areas that you found most inspirational when you talk about reading and studying other non-product tech?

Lenny：当您谈论阅读和研究其他非产品技术时，有哪些书籍、主题或领域对您来说最有启发性？

Lane Shackleton: I mean definitely sports.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我指的绝对是体育运动。

I would say sports is really interesting to me.

我想说运动对我来说真的很有趣。

Team sports.

团队运动。

I've always been a huge fan of everything team sports.

我一直是所有团队运动的忠实粉丝。

Storytelling.

评书。

Go look at some of the best storytellers in the world and they're actually out there on a stage telling stories.

去看看世界上一些最优秀的讲故事的人，他们实际上在舞台上讲故事。

There's a book called Storyworthy that I really like.

我非常喜欢一本书，名叫《有故事性》。

Lenny: I was just going to mention that.

莱尼：我只是想提一下。

That book is so good.

那本书真好。

Somebody mentioned this on the podcast and I read it.

有人在播客上提到了这一点，我读了它。

It's the most useful practical book for how to tell stories.

这是关于如何讲故事的最有用的实用书。

Lane Shackleton: It's so good.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：太棒了。

The insight is amazing.

洞察力是惊人的。

Just in case your listeners are interested, the insight is basically the nugget of a great story is five seconds of transformation.

以防万一您的听众感兴趣，这个见解基本上是一个伟大故事的核心是五秒钟的转变。

So if you just orient everything else around that moment of transformation, then you end up usually telling a reasonably good story.

因此，如果你只是围绕那个转变时刻来调整其他一切，那么你通常会讲述一个相当不错的故事。

I had a conversation with the author right after I read that book because I was just totally enamored with it.

我读完那本书后立即与作者进行了交谈，因为我完全迷上了它。

And then we ended up bringing him into Coda and he gave a great talk.

然后我们最终把他带入了 Coda，他做了一次精彩的演讲。

So yeah, big plug for Matthew Dicks.

是的，马修·迪克斯的大插曲。

Lenny: The other thing that stuck with me also from that same ...

莱尼：另一件事也困扰着我……

We're just going on all kinds of tangents.

我们只是在各种离题。

From that same insight is, and I watch movies completely differently now, where basically the characters you meet at the beginning of the story, they're going to be completely opposite at the end of the story because of this transformation that takes place.

从同样的洞察来看，我现在看电影的方式完全不同，基本上你在故事开始时遇到的角色，由于发生了这种转变，他们在故事结束时将完全相反。

So I'm watching movies with my wife now, I'm like, "Okay, she's very shy right now.

所以我现在和我的妻子一起看电影，我想，“好吧，她现在很害羞。

She's going to be very extroverted by the end of this movie." Or, "They love each other.

到这部电影结束时，她会变得非常外向。”或者，“他们彼此相爱。

Oh, they're going to have a lot of problems." That's so interesting.

噢，他们将会遇到很多问题。”那太有趣了。

Oh, that's such a good idea.

噢，这是个好主意。

Okay, I'm going to get this guy on hopefully.

好吧，我希望能让这个家伙上场。

And he's a Moth champion basically.

他基本上是飞蛾冠军。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

I would say as maybe a principal version of this, the way that you learn or the way that everyone including me learns new things is you go seek out the best at that given craft.

我想说的也许是这个的一个主要版本，你学习的方式或者包括我在内的每个人学习新事物的方式是你去寻找特定技能中最好的。

So in this case, you go to the Moth StorySLAM you see some really good stories.

所以在这种情况下，你去Moth StorySLAM你会看到一些非常好的故事。

If you ever watch these on YouTube.

如果你曾经在 YouTube 上看过这些内容。

And then you just unpack what they're doing and how they're doing it.

然后你只需解开他们正在做什么以及他们是如何做的。

And then obviously I think the other way to learn quickly is to throw yourself in the deep end.

显然，我认为快速学习的另一种方法就是让自己陷入困境。

So insofar as you can put yourself in situations that are uncomfortable or force you to do things like tell a story or force you to come up with a clear strategy, you should always opt into those, especially early in your career.

因此，只要您可以将自己置于不舒服的境地或迫使您做一些事情，例如讲故事或迫使您制定明确的策略，您就应该始终选择这些，尤其是在您职业生涯的早期。

Lenny: The first thing you said, that's basically the whole premise of this podcast.

莱尼：你说的第一件事，基本上就是这个播客的全部前提。

Find the best at all these things and learn from them, extract and share.

找到所有这些东西中最好的东西，并从中学习、提取和分享。

Lane Shackleton: And the world is much better for it.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：世界因此变得更加美好。

This podcast is an amazing resource.

这个播客是一个很棒的资源。

Lane Shackleton: You've done something very special.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：你做了一些非常特别的事情。

Lenny: I appreciate it.

莱尼：我很感激。

This podcast episode is already very special.

这期播客节目已经很特别了。

The point you just made reminds me of something that I heard you talk about, which is this oh shit moment.

你刚才提出的观点让我想起了我听到你谈论的事情，那就是这个糟糕的时刻。

I don't know if it's related to what you shared of just giving people a sense of whether they're making progress in their career.

我不知道这是否与您分享的让人们了解他们是否在职业生涯中取得进步有关。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Lane Shackleton: Sure.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

I think I picked this up originally from Seth Godin, the author, and it just totally stuck with me.

我想我最初是从作者 Seth Godin 那里学到这一点的，它完全让我难以忘怀。

The basic thesis is that moments that stretch you or moments that you feel uncomfortable in or you find yourself saying, "Oh shit, I shouldn't be here," or, "I'm under qualified to be here," those are the moments you should be seeking out.

基本论点是，那些让你感到紧张的时刻，或者你感到不舒服的时刻，或者你发现自己说，“哦，糟糕，我不应该在这里，”或者，“我没有资格在这里，”这些都是你应该寻找的时刻。

Those are the moments that stretch you and give you a new foundation.

这些时刻可以让你得到伸展并为你奠定新的基础。

And so I have found that they turn out to be a pretty good way to calibrate whether someone is growing in their career.

所以我发现它们是衡量一个人的职业生涯是否成长的一个很好的方法。

So oftentimes you'll hear a career question like, "Hey, do you feel like you're growing in your role?" And that's a very ambiguous in my opinion way to ask this question.

你经常会听到这样的职业问题：“嘿，你觉得自己在自己的角色中成长了吗？”我认为这样问这个问题的方式非常含糊。

And a much sharper way is like, "Hey, how many, oh shit moments have you had in the last six months, year, two years, and what are they?" I think if you ask yourself that question and the answer is, "It's been a really long time since I've been stretched in some meaningful way or I've felt like I'm under qualified to be there," then it may be worth digging into.

更尖锐的方式是，“嘿，在过去的六个月、一年、两年里，你经历过多少个糟糕的时刻，它们是什么？”我想，如果你问自己这个问题，而答案是，“自从我以某种有意义的方式伸展自己以来，已经有很长一段时间了，或者我觉得自己没有资格在那里”，那么它可能值得深入研究。

Lenny: That is so good.

莱尼：那太好了。

Making me think about this podcast where I never wanted to do podcasts.

让我想起这个我从来不想做播客的播客。

I'm like I'm not a podcast person.

我好像不是一个播客人。

I just want to sit there and type out newsletters.

我只想坐在那里写新闻通讯。

How cool is that?

那有多酷？

And I'm like, no, I got to do it because it's hard.

我想，不，我必须这样做，因为这很难。

And I'm glad I did it.

我很高兴我做到了。

It also reminds me of this quote that I love that I always think back to.

这也让我想起了我喜欢的这句话，我总是想起这句话。

"The cave you fear contains the treasure you seek."

“你害怕的洞穴里藏着你寻找的宝藏。”

Lane Shackleton: Nice.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：很好。

That reminds me of ...

这让我想起...

Have you read the book The Obstacle is the Way?

你读过《障碍即道路》这本书吗？

Lane Shackleton: It's a great book by Ryan Holiday.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：这是瑞安·霍勒迪（Ryan Holiday）写的一本很棒的书。

And the core thesis is ...

核心论文是......

It's a bit about stoicism.

这有点关于坚忍主义。

But the core idea is essentially instead of running away from obstacles, you should be running toward them and that's where you experience either the most growth or the most profound moments of your life.

但核心思想本质上是，你不应该逃避障碍，而应该朝着它们奔跑，这就是你经历生命中最大成长或最深刻时刻的地方。

He gives a lot of examples in that book of people throughout history who made that choice.

他在那本书中举了很多历史上做出这种选择的人的例子。

And I think he's also given that talk to hundreds of sports teams.

我认为他也曾对数百支运动队进行过这样的演讲。

It's a good book.

这是一本好书。

Worth reading.

值得一读。

Lenny: It's so hard.

莱尼：这太难了。

It's so hard to do hard things, man.

做困难的事情真是太难了，伙计。

So we've been talking about principles of great product managers.

所以我们一直在谈论优秀产品经理的原则。

You also spent a lot of time looking at the rituals of great product teams.

您还花了很多时间研究优秀产品团队的惯例。

And I know you're working on this handbook that I'm excited to learn more about.

我知道您正在编写这本手册，我很高兴能了解更多信息。

Can you just talk about ...

你能简单谈谈吗...

I guess one, where this idea came from of studying rituals of great teams and also just how do you actually go about learning about these rituals?

我想，研究伟大团队的仪式这个想法是从哪里来的，以及你实际上是如何去学习这些仪式的？

I know you have this really interesting process.

我知道你有这个非常有趣的过程。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

In general, I'm a big believer in good design and good product starts with noticing.

总的来说，我坚信好的设计和好的产品始于注意。

Tony Fadell has a great talk on this.

托尼·法德尔（Tony Fadell）对此进行了精彩的演讲。

So I think a bunch of us that are really obsessed with rituals, we just honestly try to be great at noticing.

所以我认为我们中的一群人真的很痴迷于仪式，我们只是诚实地努力善于注意。

So see something happening with a customer, ask a few questions, get introduced to their team, hear about something interesting from a non-customer, ask for an intro, end up just probing and asking a lot of questions.

因此，看到客户发生的事情，问几个问题，向他们的团队介绍，从非客户那里听到一些有趣的事情，要求介绍，最终只是探索并提出很多问题。

And then in many cases nowadays with Coda, we're building new rituals alongside people.

如今，在许多情况下，我们正在与 Coda 一起与人们一起建立新的仪式。

So someone has a creative idea about how to implement something and we're like partners or collaborators with them on that, which is honestly incredibly fun to just see people's creativity expressed in a tool and then by extension the social construct that they exist in.

因此，有人对如何实现某些东西有一个创造性的想法，我们就像他们的合作伙伴或合作者一样，老实说，看到人们的创造力在工具中表达，然后扩展到他们存在的社会结构，这真的非常有趣。

So that's a little bit about how we got started in that whole process.

这就是我们如何开始整个过程的一些内容。

And then of course Shishir is writing a book called Rituals of Great Teams so we've been cataloging those.

当然，Shishir 正在写一本名为《伟大团队的仪式》的书，所以我们一直在对这些内容进行分类。

We've been hosting a bunch of rituals dinners where we basically get people together for a dinner and we usually have three or four presenters at those dinners.

我们一直在举办一系列仪式晚宴，基本上是让人们聚在一起共进晚餐，通常在这些晚宴上有三到四位主持人。

It's just a great chance to learn and think about how the engine runs in a lot of these companies.

这是一个学习和思考许多此类公司的引擎如何运行的绝佳机会。

Lenny: What are some rituals that you've learned from these dinners and these and this research you've done that have really stuck with you?

莱尼：你从这些晚餐、这些以及你所做的研究中学到了哪些真正让你印象深刻的仪式？

Lane Shackleton: There are so many.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：有很多。

It's hard to choose.

很难选择。

Maybe I'll choose two that are top of mind.

也许我会选择两个最重要的。

One is Dharmesh Shah has this ritual from HubSpot called flash tags.

其中之一是 Dharmesh Shah 从 HubSpot 那里得到了一种称为 flash 标签的仪式。

Have you heard of this?

你听说过这个吗？

Lane Shackleton: We've all probably been in the situation where someone gives you feedback and you either under interpret it or over interpret it.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我们都可能遇到过这样的情况：有人给你反馈，而你要么低估了它，要么过度解释了它。

And as an organization, I think the core principle here is like you want to be calibrated on how much to pay attention to a bit of feedback.

作为一个组织，我认为这里的核心原则就像你想要校准对一点反馈的关注程度。

And so he outlines four flash tags.

因此他概述了四个 Flash 标签。

He presented this in one of our dinners.

他在我们的一次晚餐中介绍了这个。

And I absolutely love the phrasing of these as someone who's given a lot of feedback on product stuff in their career.

我非常喜欢这些措辞，因为我是一个在职业生涯中对产品提供了大量反馈的人。

So it ranges from ...

所以它的范围从...

I think it's FYI, suggestion, recommendation, plea.

我认为这是仅供参考、建议、推荐、恳求。

So FYI is basically like I had a thought, take it or leave it kind of thing.

所以仅供参考，基本上就像我有一个想法，要么接受要么放弃之类的事情。

Suggestion is ...

建议是...

And he uses this hill dying metaphor.

他用了这个山丘垂死的比喻。

So is this a hill I'm going to die on?

那么这就是我要死在上面的山吗？

And FYI is there's no hill in sight.

仅供参考，看不到山。

Suggestion is there's a hill.

建议是有一座山。

I'm not going to die on it but this is what I would do if I were you.

我不会死在这上面，但如果我是你，我就会这么做。

You can take it or leave it.

你可以接受它，也可以离开它。

Recommendation is I'm climbing the hill.

建议是我正在爬山。

I'm not going to die here, but I've thought about this a lot, so don't ignore this.

我不会死在这里，但我已经想了很多，所以不要忽视这一点。

Lane Shackleton: And then the fourth one, plea, is hopefully rarely used in the organization.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：第四个，请求，希望在组织中很少使用。

It's like, I don't like dying on hills.

就像，我不喜欢死在山上。

That's not what we do here.

这不是我们在这里做的。

But this is a pretty good candidate for it.

但这是一个非常好的候选者。

You should really trust me.

你真的应该相信我。

And so we have ended up using that.

所以我们最终使用了它。

I was actually just at an offsite and someone gave a lightning talk to our team on how valuable this has been just to calibrate, hey, we got 100 pieces of feedback and there's one plea.

事实上，我当时在场外，有人向我们的团队进行了一次简短的演讲，说明这对于校准来说是多么有价值，嘿，我们收到了 100 条反馈，其中有一个请求。

Okay, let's spend our time on that.

好吧，让我们把时间花在这上面。

Or there's a whole bunch of FYIs.

或者有一大堆仅供参考。

I think we're fine.

我想我们很好。

Let's keep going.

我们继续吧。

No worries.

不用担心。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

It's interesting none of them are just do it this way.

有趣的是，他们中没有一个人只是这样做。

I imagine that's very intentional.

我想这是非常有意的。

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

Honestly it's a sign of ...

老实说，这是一个迹象...

In Dharmesh's case, I don't know him super well, but it's a sign of a really experienced leader to know that scale.

就达米什而言，我不太了解他，但这表明一个真正有经验的领导者了解他的规模。

But every time I look at the scale and I'm weighing where I am between suggestion or recommendation, I have to giggle to myself.

但每次我看着天平，权衡我在建议或推荐之间的位置时，我都得咯咯地笑自己。

Lenny: And how do you actually use it?

莱尼：那么你实际上是如何使用它的呢？

In the feedback you put a hashtag plea kind of thing?

在反馈中你放了一个标签请求之类的东西？

Lane Shackleton: The way gets used in code docs and the way I think other companies have made it a ritual is you'll have a feedback table and you'll write your feedback and then there'll just be a little select list and you can select between those four.

Lane Shackleton：代码文档中使用的方式以及我认为其他公司将其作为一种仪式的方式是，您将有一个反馈表，您将写下您的反馈，然后只有一个小的选择列表，您可以在这四个列表中进行选择。

And usually what people do is they include the description so you can as you're choosing it, think do I really feel that strongly about this?

通常人们所做的就是添加描述，这样你在选择它时就可以想一想我真的对此有那么强烈的感觉吗？

And honestly, it's good hygiene.

老实说，卫生很好。

Otherwise, every bit of feedback is taken the same.

否则，每一点反馈都会被视为相同。

Which just fundamentally the impact of that is it slows everything down because now you're looking at a list of 100 pieces of feedback and you're going like, "Oh man, we got to address all this feedback." Whereas as soon as you distinguish between what's most important, it's much easier to sort through that.

从根本上来说，它的影响是它会减慢一切，因为现在你正在查看 100 条反馈的列表，你会想，“天哪，我们必须解决所有这些反馈。”然而，一旦你区分出最重要的事情，排序就容易多了。

Lenny: What about if it's in person?

莱尼：如果是当面呢？

Do you say this is a plea or this is a FYI?

你说这是请求还是仅供参考？

Lane Shackleton: Oh, I've definitely heard that in many meetings.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：哦，我确实在很多会议上都听到过这一点。

Are you making a recommendation or are you making a plea?

你是在提出建议还是在提出请求？

Lane Shackleton: And making the person think through that choice I think is just a very helpful shared language.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我认为让人们思考这个选择是一种非常有用的共享语言。

Lenny: I imagine one of the other benefits of this is I think most leaders that rise up the ranks eventually realize anything they say in a meeting is going to be taken really seriously and the team's going to rush back and be like, "Oh, Lane told us to change this thing." I imagine it helps you just make it clear.

莱尼：我想这样做的另一个好处是，我认为大多数晋升的领导者最终都会意识到他们在会议上所说的任何话都会被认真对待，团队会冲回来说，“哦，莱恩告诉我们要改变这件事。”我想它可以帮助你弄清楚。

No, you don't need to actually change this.

不，您实际上不需要更改此设置。

It's just my thoughts.

这只是我的想法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

This episode is brought to you by Ezra, the leading full body cancer screening company.

本集由领先的全身癌症筛查公司 Ezra 为您带来。

I actually used Ezra earlier this year unrelated to this podcast, completely on my own dime because my wife did one and loved it and I was super curious to see if there's anything that I should be paying attention to in my body as I get older.

事实上，我今年早些时候使用了 Ezra，与这个播客无关，完全是我自己出钱，因为我的妻子做了一个并且很喜欢它，我非常好奇随着年龄的增长，我的身体是否有什么应该注意的。

The way it works is you book an appointment, you come in, you put on some very cool silky pajamas that they give you that you get to keep afterwards.

它的运作方式是你预约，进来，穿上他们给你的一些非常酷的丝质睡衣，之后你可以保留这些睡衣。

You go into an MRI machine for 30 to 45 minutes, and then about a week later you get this detailed report sharing what they found in your body.

您进入 MRI 机器 30 到 45 分钟，大约一周后，您会收到一份详细报告，分享他们在您体内发现的情况。

Luckily, I had what they called an unremarkable screening, which means they didn't find anything cancerous, but they did find some issues in my back, which I'm getting checked out at a physical next month.

幸运的是，我进行了他们所谓的“无异常筛查”，这意味着他们没有发现任何癌变，但他们确实发现了我背部的一些问题，我将在下个月进行体检。

Probably because I spend so much time sitting in front of a computer.

可能是因为我花了太多时间坐在电脑前。

Half of all men will have cancer at some point in their lives, as will one third of women.

一半的男性会在一生中的某个时刻患上癌症，三分之一的女性也会患癌症。

Half of all of them will detect it late.

其中一半人会发现得很晚。

Lenny: According to the American Cancer Society, early cancer detection has an 80% survival rate compared to less than 20% for late stage cancer.

Lenny：根据美国癌症协会的数据，早期癌症检测的存活率高达 80%，而晚期癌症的存活率不到 20%。

The Ezra team has helped 13% of their customers identify potential cancer early, and 50% of them identify other clinically significant issues such as aneurysms, disc herniations, which may be what I have, or fatty liver disease.

Ezra 团队帮助 13% 的客户及早发现了潜在的癌症，其中 50% 的客户发现了其他具有临床意义的问题，例如动脉瘤、椎间盘突出（我可能患有这种疾病）或脂肪肝。

Ezra scans for cancer and 500 other conditions in 13 organs using a full body MRI powered by AI and just launched the world's only 30-minute full body scan, which is also their most affordable.

Ezra 使用人工智能驱动的全身 MRI 扫描 13 个器官的癌症和​​ 500 种其他病症，并刚刚推出了世界上唯一的 30 分钟全身扫描，这也是他们最实惠的。

Their scans are non-invasive and radiation free.

他们的扫描是非侵入性且无辐射的。

And Ezra is offering listeners $150 off their first scan with code Lenny150.

Ezra 为听众提供 150 美元的优惠，使用代码 Lenny150 进行首次扫描。

Book your scan at ezra.com/lenny at E-Z-R-A.com/lenny.

请通过 ezra.com/lenny 的 E-Z-R-A.com/lenny 预订扫描。

Lenny: Any other rituals that stand out as really interesting, either more recently you've learned or something you're just like, oh, wow, that was a genius?

莱尼：有没有其他非常有趣的仪式，要么是你最近学到的，要么是你觉得，哦，哇，那是一个天才？

Lane Shackleton: I guess one that I get asked about a lot on our team is called Catalyst.

Lane Shackleton：我想我们团队中经常被问及的一个问题是 Catalyst。

And I guess maybe to set some context on this one, in most product teams, the review forum is just a really important part of the product development process.

我想也许可以为此设置一些背景，在大多数产品团队中，评论论坛只是产品开发过程中非常重要的一部分。

And the core insight for most review forums or product reviews or decision forums is that they generally suffer from two problems that are hard to spot unless you've sat through hundreds of them.

大多数评论论坛或产品评论或决策论坛的核心见解是，它们通常会遇到两个问题，除非您已经经历了数百个问题，否则很难发现这些问题。

The first is they have standing attendees, and the second is they're normally single-threaded, meaning they're normally one topic at a time.

第一个是他们有站立的与会者，第二个是他们通常是单线程的，这意味着他们通常一次只有一个主题。

So maybe I'll talk about both of those because I think they're not exactly intuitive.

所以也许我会讨论这两个问题，因为我认为它们并不完全直观。

So when you think about what happens with a standing set of attendees, you either have the situation where you have too many people in the meeting or you have not enough people in the meeting, and both of those can cause problems.

因此，当您考虑站立的与会者会发生什么情况时，您要么会遇到会议中人数太多的情况，要么会议中人数不足的情况，这两种情况都可能会导致问题。

Lane Shackleton: So if you've ever been in a meeting, I certainly have, where it's like, "Hey, do we have the salesperson who knows most about this or do we have the engineer who's actually implementing this here?

Lane Shackleton：如果你参加过一次会议，我当然参加过，会议的内容就像是，“嘿，我们是否有最了解这一点的销售人员，或者我们是否有真正在这里实施这一点的工程师？

Oh, great.

哦，太好了。

They're not here?

他们不在这里吗？

They're not a part of the standing set of attendees?" You either have to reschedule the meeting or worse, you just do the discussion without the person who's most knowledgeable, which seems crazy in retrospect.

他们不是常备与会者的一部分吗？”你要么必须重新安排会议时间，要么更糟糕的是，你只是在没有最有知识的人的情况下进行讨论，回想起来这似乎很疯狂。

The second problem is single-threaded.

第二个问题是单线程。

So one topic at a time.

所以一次一个主题。

So if you think about if a product development process is somewhat of a chaotic assembly line for a second, your review or your decision forum ends up being a big time bottleneck in many cases.

因此，如果您考虑一下产品开发过程是否有点混乱的装配线，那么在许多情况下，您的审查或决策论坛最终会成为一个很大的时间瓶颈。

And obviously you want to be in a situation where product people have a lot of autonomy and they can make most of the decisions themselves.

显然，你希望产品人员拥有很大的自主权，他们可以自己做出大部分决定。

And I'm a big believer in decentralized leadership and all of that, but there are things that cut across the company that need to get reviewed by a broader set of stakeholders.

我非常相信权力下放的领导力以及所有这些，但有些事情贯穿整个公司，需要得到更广泛的利益相关者的审查。

Lane Shackleton: And so what happens when those things are single threaded is either the meeting is really long, so it's a three-hour review meeting once a week, and by the end everyone is about to fall asleep, or it's really short and it's really hard to get on the calendar.

Lane Shackleton：当这些事情是单线程时，会发生什么，要么会议非常长，所以这是每周一次的三小时审查会议，到最后每个人都快要睡着了，要么会议非常短，很难列入日历。

You're like, "Oh, can we get on the calendar in two weeks?" And the downside of the not being able to get on the calendar is that now you've just slowed down the whole velocity of the company because the throughput of your review meeting is really slow.

你会说，“哦，我们可以在两周后进入日历吗？”无法进入日历的缺点是，现在您已经减慢了公司的整体速度，因为审核会议的吞吐量非常慢。

So we built Catalyst to really solve those two problems.

所以我们构建 Catalyst 来真正解决这两个问题。

And so the way it works is it's essentially three one hour blocks throughout the week, and the assumption is that the whole company is free.

所以它的工作方式是一周内基本上有三个一小时的时间段，并且假设整个公司都是免费的。

So you can get anyone in the company for those three hours.

因此，您可以在这三个小时内联系公司中的任何人。

And each topic has essentially four roles.

每个主题本质上都有四个角色。

Driver, maker, braintrust, and interested.

司机、制造者、智囊团和感兴趣的人。

It's a very transparent system.

这是一个非常透明的系统。

Lane Shackleton: So a salesperson can say, "Oh, I'm interested in this product development review.

Lane Shackleton：所以销售人员可以说：“哦，我对这个产品开发审查感兴趣。

I'm just going to mark myself as interested." And then the driver is the person who's actually going to drive the meeting, drive the decision, drive the outcome, things like that.

我只是要把自己标记为感兴趣。”然后，推动者就是真正推动会议、推动决策、推动结果等的人。

And basically, this is all centralized in one doc.

基本上，这一切都集中在一个文档中。

And what happens is the day before, that hold that's on calendar gets removed, and then you have specific topics that get added.

发生的情况是前一天，日历上的保留被删除，然后您添加了特定主题。

So there may be three topics going all at the same time because they don't have overlapping attendees.

因此，可能会同时出现三个主题，因为它们没有重叠的与会者。

And the impact of this, I think if you really watch it in progress is huge.

我认为如果你真正观察它的进展，其影响是巨大的。

You basically have many topics running all at the same time, so the throughput is much better and you have the right attendees every single time, and you have a clear set of drivers and roles in these meetings.

基本上，您有许多主题同时运行，因此吞吐量要好得多，并且每次都有合适的与会者，并且在这些会议中拥有一组明确的驱动程序和角色。

So that means that we can review work much, much faster with the right people, and ideally that results in more value to our customers, more things getting shipped, just a higher velocity organization.

因此，这意味着我们可以与合适的人员一起更快地审查工作，理想情况下，这可以为我们的客户带来更多价值，交付更多的东西，从而提高组织的速度。

So that's one that we get asked about a lot.

所以这是我们经常被问到的问题。

And actually a couple of weeks ago, we spent a while remaking the template for that one.

实际上，几周前，我们花了一段时间重新制作该模板。

Lenny: I love that ritual.

莱尼：我喜欢这种仪式。

You actually wrote even in more depth in the post that we worked together on how Coda builds product, which we'll link to if folks want to try this out and you link to actual templates people can actually use it their companies.

事实上，您在我们合作如何构建 Coda 产品的文章中写得更深入，如果人们想尝试一下，我们将链接到该文章，并且您链接到人们可以在其公司实际使用的实际模板。

When someone's listening to this and they're like, "Oh, wow, this is extremely cool," how easy is it do you find for people to take a ritual from a company and implement it?

当有人听完之后会说，“哦，哇，这太酷了”，你发现人们从公司那里接受仪式并实施它有多容易？

How much is cultural and it's hard to transplant, or do you find people can take this Catalyst idea plug and play at a lot of companies?

有多少是文化因素并且很难移植，或者您是否发现人们可以在很多公司中即插即用这个 Catalyst 想法？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

I think it depends a lot on what your role in the company is.

我认为这很大程度上取决于你在公司中的角色。

Maybe to say the extremes for a second, if you're a brand new PM to an organization, you probably shouldn't go try to remake the whole product review cycle that the head of product is really passionate about and has crafted.

也许说极端一点，如果你是一个组织的全新产品经理，你可能不应该去尝试重新制定产品负责人真正热衷并精心设计的整个产品审查周期。

But you can probably take a decision template or some interesting ritual that has facilitated a team in the past and use it with your team.

但是您可能可以采用一个决策模板或一些过去曾促进团队发展的有趣仪式，并将其与您的团队一起使用。

Another one of my favorites there is a hundred dollar voting.

我最喜欢的另一个是一百美元投票。

We use that a lot in the context of planning, and I find that creative rituals like that are easy to pick up for teams because oftentimes it's like, okay ...

我们在规划中经常使用它，我发现团队很容易接受这样的创造性仪式，因为通常情况下，好吧......

And maybe I'll describe the ritual real quick.

也许我会很快地描述一下这个仪式。

Lane Shackleton: The ritual is essentially you can take any set of problems or solutions or themes or whatever you want to get people's input on, and you put those into a table and then people can basically vote with their dollars and usually you allocate $100.

Lane Shackleton：仪式本质上是你可以采取任何一组问题或解决方案或主题或任何你想要让人们输入的内容，然后将它们放入表格中，然后人们基本上可以用他们的美元进行投票，通常你会分配 100 美元。

And so people will go through and say, "Oh, I want to allocate $10 to this and $20 to this and $50 to this because I think it's really important." And I have found that especially in planning processes, little rituals like this are great at getting the elephant in the room out.

因此人们会说：“哦，我想为此分配 10 美元、20 美元和 50 美元，因为我认为这非常重要。”我发现，特别是在规划过程中，像这样的小仪式非常有助于消除房间里的大象。

So it's like, "Oh wow, we have a huge spread on this one particular problem.

所以这就像是，“哦，哇，我们在这个特定问题上有很大的分歧。

You think it's a huge problem.

你认为这是一个大问题。

I don't think it's a problem at all.

我认为这根本不是问题。

Let's talk about it." Going back to the thesis of turning ambiguity into clarity, a lot of this is like we're trying to get the ambiguous stuff out there so that we can make it more clear.

我们来谈谈吧。”回到将模糊性转化为清晰性的论点，很多事情就像我们试图将模糊性的东西弄清楚，以便我们可以使其更加清晰。

Lane Shackleton: And so I use that as an example because you can be a brand new PM, run a brainstorm, run a planning session like that, and you're probably going to get great feedback.

Lane Shackleton：所以我用它作为例子，因为你可以成为一个全新的产品经理，进行一次头脑风暴，进行一次类似的规划会议，你可能会得到很好的反馈。

People are probably going to go, "This is cool.

人们可能会说：“这很酷。

I've never done this before." Now to go to the other side of the spectrum, we help a lot of companies that want to remake a whole process.

我以前从来没有这样做过。”现在转到光谱的另一边，我们帮助许多想要重塑整个流程的公司。

They want to remake a review system like Catalyst or they want to remake their decision rituals.

他们想要重新制定像 Catalyst 这样的审查系统，或者他们想要重新制定他们的决策程序。

And so in that sense, we're usually talking to a head of product or director of product or VP of product and someone who tends to have a lot more agency over the way that the team works.

因此，从这个意义上说，我们通常是在与产品负责人、产品总监或产品副总裁以及在团队工作方式上拥有更多代理权的人交谈。

Lenny: Coda is interesting in that it feels like you have pretty stable processes for planning and reviews.

Lenny：Coda 很有趣，因为它感觉你有相当稳定的规划和审查流程。

I find most companies just every six months rethink a lot of these things.

我发现大多数公司每六个月就会重新考虑很多这些事情。

I guess that's probably a sign that you found something that's really good and works and you don't have to redo it.

我想这可能表明您发现了一些非常好的并且有效的东西，并且您不必重做。

How much are you radically changing the way you operate versus working in similar ways?

与以类似方式工作相比，您从根本上改变了多少运营方式？

How do you think about that percentage wise?

您如何看待这个百分比？

Lane Shackleton: People are always coming up with new creative ways to make their teams run better, make decisions go smoother.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：人们总是想出新的创造性方法来让他们的团队运行得更好，让决策更顺利。

And we're continuously adopting those, but there's definitely a backbone of the system.

我们正在不断采用这些技术，但系统肯定有一个支柱。

The backbone of the system is Catalyst and tag-ups and the concept called Bullpen.

该系统的支柱是 Catalyst 和 tag-ups 以及称为 Bullpen 的概念。

And then there'll be a lot of iteration on top of that.

然后在此之上会有很多迭代。

And even those systems went through a lot of iteration.

甚至这些系统也经历了很多迭代。

I talked about how the calendar hold got removed and then individual topics got added.

我谈到了如何取消日历保留，然后添加单个主题。

That took us launching automations and the ability to add things to calendar in order for that whole process to really work.

这让我们启动了自动化，并能够将事情添加到日历中，以便整个过程真正发挥作用。

So in the years prior to us launching that, we did it very manually.

因此，在我们推出该项目之前的几年里，我们都是手动完成的。

So I think there's still a lot of creativity that I see every day.

所以我认为我每天都能看到很多创造力。

Lane Shackleton: So I'll give one quick example.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我举一个简单的例子。

One of our PM leads on core product, this guy Nathan, he basically saw that a lot of decisions had a lot of different stakeholders because he's in the core product.

我们的核心产品 PM 负责人之一，这个人 Nathan，他基本上看到很多决策都有很多不同的利益相关者，因为他在核心产品中。

And now he's leading the core product team so he's trying to figure out what guidance do I give to each of these PMs on who to involve in these decisions?

现在他领导着核心产品团队，所以他试图弄清楚我应该向每个 PM 提供哪些指导来决定谁参与这些决策？

Because every one of these with core product feels like they impact everybody.

因为每一项核心产品都感觉它们影响着每个人。

And so a very simple thing that he did probably in the last six months was he had a table of all the upcoming decisions and then at a tag-up ...

因此，他在过去六个月中可能做的一件非常简单的事情就是他列出了所有即将做出的决定，然后进行了标记......

Which I can explain if you want.

如果你愿意的话我可以解释一下。

But basically with a small set of stakeholders, he had all the upcoming decisions and then he let people hit a little reaction and say, "Oh, I don't need to be involved.

但基本上，只有一小部分利益相关者，他制定了所有即将做出的决定，然后他让人们做出一点反应，然后说：“哦，我不需要参与。

Just notify me of the decision after." Or, "Hey, I have some opinions, but you can keep going." Or, "No, I really want to be heavily involved in this decision."

稍后通知我决定即可。”或者，“嘿，我有一些意见，但你可以继续。”或者，“不，我真的很想积极参与这个决定。”

Lane Shackleton: And it was such a pro move.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：这是一个非常有利的举动。

It was such a, I've been through a million of these.

就是这样，我已经经历过一百万次这样的事了。

I don't want to treat every one of them the same because if I do, it's going to slow down the velocity of this whole organization.

我不想对他们每个人都一视同仁，因为如果我这样做，就会减慢整个组织的速度。

And so instead, the majority of those, Shishir or I or Oliver, the head of engineering will say, "I may have some opinions, but keep going." That's often the default.

因此，大多数人，Shishir、我或奥利弗（工程主管）会说：“我可能有一些意见，但请继续。”这通常是默认设置。

And then there are plenty where we say, "Just notify us of the decision after." And in doing that, Nathan can now give better guidance to the PMs on his team and say, "Hey, you don't really need to involve as wide a group as you think, so just keep going and check in later." So I think those types of little iterations are usually based on a really good insight.

然后有很多地方我们会说，“稍后通知我们决定。”通过这样做，内森现在可以向他的团队中的产品经理提供更好的指导，并说：“嘿，你真的不需要像你想象的那样让一个广泛的群体参与进来，所以继续前进并稍后检查即可。”所以我认为这些类型的小迭代通常基于非常好的洞察力。

Lenny: It sounds like a dream come true for a platform team to reduce how many people have to be involved in all your planning and decision making.

Lenny：对于平台团队来说，减少参与所有规划和决策的人数似乎是梦想成真。

And that process in which you call it tag-up, maybe just briefly explain it and then I want to talk about this handbook you're working on, which is going to I think, cover a lot of these things.

你称之为标记的过程，也许只是简单地解释一下，然后我想谈谈你正在编写的这本手册，我认为这将涵盖很多这样的事情。

Lane Shackleton: Tag-up is based on this insight that a lot of work and project work tends to get discussed in one-on-ones.

Lane Shackleton：Tag-up 是基于这样的见解，即许多工作和项目工作往往会以一对一的方式进行讨论。

And actually it's really an anti-pattern.

事实上，这确实是一种反模式。

It's a pattern you should try to avoid.

这是您应该尽量避免的模式。

So if you're talking to your manager about product work, what's not happening in that moment is your eng lead and your design lead, they're not hearing that.

因此，如果您正在与您的经理谈论产品工作，那一刻没有发生的是您的工程主管和设计主管，他们没有听到这一点。

And so you end up with this big game of telephone where you'll have a conversation with your manager in a one-on-one, they'll go back and translate to their engineering and design lead, and of course the fidelity of the game of telephone, something is lost in all of those transmissions.

因此，你最终会遇到这场大型电话游戏，你将与你的经理进行一对一的对话，他们会返回并翻译给他们的工程和设计主管，当然，电话游戏的保真度，在所有这些传输中都会丢失一些东西。

And so the core idea is have a group one-on-one with the key stakeholders.

因此，核心理念是与关键利益相关者建立一对一的小组。

And so we have this concept of braintrust that's modeled off after Pixar's braintrust.

因此，我们有了模仿皮克斯智囊团的智囊团概念。

Lane Shackleton: And so we'll have a tag-up with a small set of people from a given team, or sometimes we have larger groups, and then they meet with their braintrust and it's once a week.

Lane Shackleton：所以我们会与特定团队中的一小部分人进行标记，或者有时我们会有更大的团队，然后他们会与他们的智囊会面，每周一次。

It's the same mindset of a one-on-one.

这与一对一的心态相同。

It's their time.

这是他们的时间了。

So anything that they need to unblock a decision or to make progress, they should use that time for.

因此，他们应该利用这段时间来完成任何需要解决决策障碍或取得进展的事情。

And they often start by reviewing OKRs and metrics and things like that.

他们通常首先审查 OKR 和指标以及类似的东西。

But then we generally get into a table of topics.

但接下来我们通常会进入一个主题表。

Anyone can add a topic.

任何人都可以添加主题。

Those topics are up voted, so people will react and then the table will sort itself.

这些话题被投票通过，所以人们会做出反应，然后表格会自行排序。

And then we'll say, "Okay, this is clearly the topic on people's mind." And that's a version of what we call Dory, which I can talk about.

然后我们会说：“好吧，这显然是人们关心的话题。”这就是我们所说的多莉的一个版本，我可以谈论它。

But essentially the principle is you should discuss that project work with the whole group there.

但本质上，原则是你应该与整个团队讨论该项目工作。

With the whole triad there.

整个三合会都在那里。

And oftentimes with the sales person there and with the marketer there and with everybody else.

通常是与那里的销售人员、那里的营销人员以及其他所有人一起。

So I found that that is just a really good practice to try to move a lot of that work out of one-on-ones and into a small group setting.

所以我发现这是一个非常好的做法，可以尝试将大量工作从一对一转移到小组环境中。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So you're working on a handbook that's collecting a lot of these rituals.

因此，您正在编写一本收集了许多此类仪式的手册。

Talk about that and then when can people maybe look for it?

谈论这个，然后人们什么时候可以寻找它？

Lane Shackleton: One of the realizations I had the other day, probably a month or two ago when we started working on this thing, was I was talking to someone about Catalyst and a couple other concepts, and they were like, "I get it.

Lane Shackleton：前几天，大概是一两个月前，当我们开始研究这件事时，我的一个认识是，我正在和某人谈论 Catalyst 和其他几个概念，他们说，“我明白了。

I'm sold.

我被卖了。

I want to implement some of these things.

我想实施其中一些事情。

Where do I look?" And so I found myself sending them a bunch of links to individual templates.

我往哪儿看？”因此，我发现自己向他们发送了一堆指向各个模板的链接。

So that cued us into the fact that we needed to have a better core handbook for teams that wanted to adopt some of these rituals and also learn from all the rituals that we have learned from and feel very fortunate to have partnered with so many customers on.

因此，这提示我们一个事实，即我们需要为那些想要采用其中一些仪式的团队提供更好的核心手册，并从我们从中学到的所有仪式中学习，并且非常幸运能够与如此多的客户合作。

And so what we did was started writing this handbook, and it's going to come out hopefully by the time this recording is done.

所以我们所做的就是开始编写这本手册，希望在录音完成时它就会问世。

And in it, we'll talk about everything from rituals like Catalyst to decision rituals to a lot of planning and strategy and roadmaps, that kind of stuff.

在其中，我们将讨论一切，从催化剂之类的仪式到决策仪式，再到大量的规划、战略和路线图，诸如此类的东西。

And trying to pull out the most interesting patterns and also give people a pretty practical view of how to implement these things.

并试图找出最有趣的模式，并让人们对如何实现这些东西有一个非常实用的看法。

I think that's what has been lacking sometimes.

我想这就是有时所缺乏的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll definitely link to that.

我们一定会链接到那个。

Hopefully it's live by the time goes out.

希望到时候它还活着。

We'll make it happen.

我们会让它发生。

I know also you said Shishir's working on a book that's related and basically rituals of great teams and Shishir was on the podcast and he talked about Dory, so we don't have to get into that.

我也知道你说 Shishir 正在写一本相关的书，基本上是伟大团队的仪式，Shishir 在播客上，他谈到了 Dory，所以我们不必讨论这个问题。

If people want to learn about Dory, they can watch that episode.

如果人们想了解多莉，他们可以观看该集。

It was one of the earliest episodes actually.

这实际上是最早的剧集之一。

One of the most popular.

最受欢迎的之一。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

I have a bunch of random questions now.

我现在有一堆随机问题。

I'm just going to go in a few different directions.

我只会朝几个不同的方向前进。

One is, you wrote this post that you call Learn by Making, Not Talking.

一是，你写了这篇文章，你称之为“通过制作而不是通过谈话来学习”。

Is that another principle by the way?

顺便说一句，这是另一个原则吗？

Is that amongst your many principles?

这是你的众多原则之一吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

So in that post, which we'll link to, you share this story of how you and the YouTube team came up with skippable ads, which I didn't realize it was such a controversial ...

因此，在我们将链接到的那篇文章中，您分享了您和 YouTube 团队如何想出可跳过广告的故事，我没有意识到这是一个如此有争议的......

But in thinking about it, obviously letting people skip ads, I could see why people were not excited about that.

但仔细想想，显然是让人们跳过广告，我就能明白为什么人们对此不感兴趣。

Could you just tell that story?

你能简单讲一下这个故事吗？

And basically it's like the story of how skippable ads on YouTube came about?

基本上这就像 YouTube 上可跳过广告的故事一样？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

So I moved over to YouTube shortly after the acquisition.

因此，在 YouTube 被收购后不久，我就转到了 YouTube。

It was an amazing tight-knit team.

这是一支令人惊叹的紧密团队。

It definitely felt like the Wild West.

这绝对感觉就像狂野的西部。

We were getting sued by Viacom for a billion dollars when that was a lot of money.

我们被维亚康姆起诉，要求赔偿 10 亿美元，当时那是一笔巨款。

No advertiser wanted to talk to us.

没有广告商愿意与我们交谈。

It was essentially viewed as a site of cat videos and dogs on skateboards and things like that.

它本质上被视为一个猫视频和玩滑板的狗之类的网站。

And then I guess the other context, the sales team was very nascent and all they wanted to sell was the homepage and for good reason.

然后我想另一个背景是，销售团队非常新生，他们想要出售的只是主页，并且有充分的理由。

That was where you made your money as a salesperson.

这就是你作为销售人员赚钱的地方。

And so I had just been sponsored by Salar and Shishir to become a PM.

所以我刚刚得到 Salar 和 Shishir 的赞助成为一名总理。

It's a longer story that I'll leave out for now and we can go into.

这是一个较长的故事，我暂时先不讲，我们可以继续讨论。

But on day one of being a PM, Shishir's like, "Great.

但在成为总理的第一天，Shishir 就说：“太棒了。

You're the new guy.

你是新人。

You get the project that nobody else wants and that's called skippable ads.

您得到了其他人不想要的项目，这就是所谓的可跳过广告。

And we've got this crazy idea that we can align the incentives of advertisers and viewers and creatives in this really clever way by putting a skip button on the ad and then charging people per views." And the latter part we hadn't quite cemented yet, but it was part of the core idea.

我们有一个疯狂的想法，我们可以通过在广告上放置一个跳过按钮，然后按观看次数收费，以这种非常聪明的方式调整广告商、观众和创意人员的激励。”后一部分我们还没有完全巩固，但它是核心思想的一部分。

Lane Shackleton: And so the thing I write about in this post is as a new PM, this feels like a really consequential decision.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：所以我在这篇文章中写的是作为一名新总理，这感觉像是一个非常重要的决定。

It's like we've got this new product idea.

就好像我们有了这个新产品的想法。

Nobody really wants it.

没有人真正想要它。

Advertisers don't want it.

广告商不想要它。

The sales team doesn't want it.

销售团队不想要它。

And it's a very unproven thesis.

这是一个未经证实的论点。

And so the thing I write about is these are the types of things that you can debate for months or years.

所以我写的就是这些你可以争论数月或数年的事情。

And I was sitting in a one-on-one with this guy named Phil Farhi who's an amazing product leader and was my boss at the time.

我当时正与一个名叫 Phil Farhi 的人进行一对一的交谈，他是一位出色的产品领导者，也是我当时的老板。

And we're trying to figure out what to do and how to handle all the different dynamics.

我们正在努力弄清楚该做什么以及如何处理所有不同的动态。

And he just stops and he's like, "You know what?

他就停了下来，然后说道：“你知道吗？

Just test the extremes.

只需测试极端情况即可。

Start the experiment tomorrow.

明天开始实验。

We'll figure it out." Essentially.

我们会想办法的。”本质上。

Lane Shackleton: And I think his point was like, look, we can debate this forever.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我认为他的观点是，看，我们可以永远争论这个问题。

So I would rather us see the upper and lower bounds of how good this could be or how bad this is going to be immediately.

因此，我希望我们能够立即看到情况的好坏程度的上限和下限。

And so we launched a set of experiments.

因此我们发起了一系列实验。

This guy Jamie Kerns who's still there.

杰米·克恩斯这个人还在那里。

Tiny little skip button on one experiment, giant skip button that covered the entire player on the other side of the experiment.

一个实验中的微小跳过按钮，实验另一侧覆盖整个播放器的巨大跳过按钮。

And within a few weeks, I think we had developed some conviction based on some very directional data that we were onto something.

在几周之内，我认为我们已经根据一些非常有方向性的数据形成了一些信念，即我们正在做某件事。

And so the lesson that I took, this is many years ago and I've seen this proven out hundreds of times since, is stop talking about it and go make something.

所以我在很多年前学到的教训是，停止谈论它并去做点什么。

Go run an experiment.

去做个实验吧。

Go make a prototype, go write a doc, go make a mock.

去制作原型，去写文档，去进行模拟。

Just don't talk about it.

只是不要谈论它。

Lane Shackleton: And I found that also as a leader, people really follow that concept.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我发现，作为领导者，人们也确实遵循这个概念。

And I also found that it transcends level.

而且我还发现它超越了层次。

I am not talking just to ICPMs.

我所说的不仅仅是植检临委。

I'm talking to heads of product and CPOs and CEOs to some degree.

在某种程度上，我正在与产品负责人、首席产品官和首席执行官进行交谈。

You should always be out there trying to learn by expressing your ideas and putting them out there.

你应该始终通过表达你的想法并将其付诸实践来尝试学习。

And that's much more valuable in many cases than pontificating about it or having endless circular discussions on it.

在许多情况下，这比武断地谈论它或对此进行无休止的循环讨论更有价值。

Lenny: It makes me think a little bit about Twitter where they spent years just thinking about the edit button or all these different changes.

莱尼：这让我想起了 Twitter，他们花了数年时间思考编辑按钮或所有这些不同的变化。

They're so scared, they did so much research and then now they're changing things left and right.

他们非常害怕，他们做了很多研究，然后现在他们正在左右改变事情。

Everything's fine.

一切都很好。

Everyone's still using it.

大家还在用它。

It shows you that you don't have to be so delicate.

它告诉你，你不必那么脆弱。

Lane Shackleton: Yes.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

It's almost never as bad as you think it's going to be.

事情几乎永远不会像你想象的那么糟糕。

So yeah, it's just a question of how much better it can be oftentimes.

所以，是的，这只是一个问题，通常情况下它可以变得更好。

Lenny: You mentioned in your early career ...

莱尼：你在早期职业生涯中提到过......

We talked about your Alaska guide phase.

我们讨论了您的阿拉斯加向导阶段。

Something else I saw is that you were on the AdWords approval team.

我还看到您是 AdWords 审批团队的一员。

You basically were reviewing ads people submitted to run on AdWords and that's how you started in tech.

您基本上是在审核人们提交并在 AdWords 上投放的广告，这就是您开始从事技术工作的方式。

So I guess first of all, is that true?

所以我想首先，这是真的吗？

And then second of all, how did you graduate from that phase and become this Chief Product Officer of one of the fastest growing, most interesting companies in the world?

其次，你是如何从那个阶段毕业并成为世界上发展最快、最有趣的公司之一的首席产品官的？

Lane Shackleton: That was a really memorable time.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：那真是一段难忘的时光。

There's an amazing cohort of people that started in tech.

有一群了不起的人从科技行业起步。

I think there was 200 or 300 of us at that time and then eventually thousands that started in Sheryl Sandberg's organization.

我想当时我们有 200 或 300 人，后来最终有数千人加入了 Sheryl Sandberg 的组织。

I guess maybe some quick context.

我想也许有一些快速的背景。

Before running ads on google.com at that time, you had to have them manually approved by a human before that was handled by machine learning and outsourced to other countries.

当时在 google.com 上投放广告之前，必须先由人工手动批准，然后再由机器学习处理并外包给其他国家。

And so there was this process where basically an ad would show up on your screen, you would mark it family safe, non-family safe, porn.

因此，在这个过程中，基本上一个广告会显示在您的屏幕上，您可以将其标记为家庭安全、非家庭安全、色情。

And then based on that, it would either run or it wouldn't.

然后基于此，它要么运行，要么不运行。

And actually, funny enough, some of my most successful friends were terrible at the approval event.

事实上，有趣的是，我的一些最成功的朋友在批准活动中表现得很糟糕。

They failed the rote task of approving ads.

他们未能完成批准广告的死记硬背的任务。

They just couldn't handle it and they went on to be really, really successful.

他们就是无法应对，但他们却取得了非常非常成功的成功。

Lane Shackleton: So after working on ad approvals, at that time, I moved to chat support.

Lane Shackleton：在从事广告审批工作后，当时我转向了聊天支持。

It was basically when AdWords was launching chat support.

基本上是在 AdWords 推出聊天支持的时候。

I remember very fondly having two chats, chatting with two advertisers at once.

我记得非常愉快地进行了两次聊天，同时与两个广告商聊天。

Moved on to phone support.

转向电话支持。

That was eight hours a day of talking to AdWords customers.

每天与 AdWords 客户交谈八个小时。

Really a total rollercoaster ride.

真的是一次过山车之旅。

It was basically one minute you would pick up the phone and it would be someone from a Fortune 100 company trying to spend millions of dollars on AdWords and then the next minute you would be on the phone with a psychic or a taxi driver that was warring with their compatriots over some really specific keyword.

基本上，前一分钟你拿起电话，就会发现来自财富 100 强公司的某人试图在 AdWords 上花费数百万美元，然后下一分钟你就会接到通灵者或出租车司机的电话，他们正在与他们的同胞就一些非常具体的关键字发生争执。

I think there were two lessons that I would draw from this.

我认为我可以从中吸取两个教训。

One is I had a mentor at the time and his advice when I was starting my career was basically you have to get customer facing from the very beginning because you're going to end up serving a customer your whole career.

一是我当时有一位导师，当我开始职业生涯时，他的建议基本上是，你必须从一开始就面对客户，因为你最终将在整个职业生涯中为客户服务。

Even when you're the CEO of a company, you're going to be serving a customer.

即使您是公司的首席执行官，您也要为客户提供服务。

So you better get really good at being in any customer scenario and being able to handle it.

因此，您最好真正擅长处于任何客户场景中并能够处理它。

And so I think that that turned out to be insanely good advice.

所以我认为这是一个非常好的建议。

And if I think about a piece of advice that I give out to people who are early in their career, I've definitely recycled that advice.

如果我想到我向职业生涯早期的人提供的一条建议，我肯定会重复使用该建议。

Lane Shackleton: I think the other thing that I took away from that experience was it's just a great lesson in when people don't actually care about your product.

Lane Shackleton：我认为我从这次经历中学到的另一件事是，当人们实际上并不关心你的产品时，这只是一个很好的教训。

So in AdWord's case, people did not care about AdWords.

因此，就 AdWord 而言，人们并不关心 AdWords。

You were the expert on it and you're trying to tell them about ad groups and how this ad format works and blah, blah.

你是这方面的专家，你试图告诉他们有关广告组以及这种广告格式如何运作的信息，等等。

And most of the time people are like, "Dude, I'm a small business owner.

大多数时候人们会说，“伙计，我是一个小企业主。

I'm trying to get people to come to my auto mechanic store." Or, "I'm trying to get people to come to my taxi service," or whatever it was.

我正在努力让人们来到我的汽车修理店。”或者，“我正在努力让人们来我的出租车服务”，或者其他什么。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

Basically the product had to get out of the way and really just drive impact for the customer.

基本上，产品必须摆脱阻碍，真正为客户带来影响。

It was like they just want more phone calls or they want more people in the store.

就好像他们只是想要更多的电话或者他们想要更多的人进入商店。

So those are I think two pieces that I think about from those days still.

所以，我认为这些是我当时仍在思考的两件事。

Lane Shackleton: And then I worked in a variety of other roles.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：然后我担任过各种其他角色。

I worked in a role called product specialist, which is an awesome role back when there were 15 product specialists at Google.

我担任过一个叫做产品专家的职位，当 Google 有 15 名产品专家时，这是一个很棒的职位。

For me, that was an amazing time because I was getting to sit on seven or eight different core product teams.

对我来说，那是一段美妙的时光，因为我开始加入七八个不同的核心产品团队。

And in my observation, these days, most PMs don't get to sit on other people's core teams.

根据我的观察，如今，大多数产品经理都无法进入其他人的核心团队。

And so I had these three or four years of just ...

所以我度过了这三四年的时光……

I call it a masterclass in PMing because I was getting to watch what was working for some PMs and what wasn't working for other PMs and just taking notes behind the scenes.

我将其称为 PM 大师班，因为我可以观察哪些内容对某些 PM 有效，哪些内容对其他 PM 无效，并且只是在幕后做笔记。

So that was a really influential role.

所以这是一个非常有影响力的角色。

And then went on to various PM roles at Google and YouTube.

然后继续在 Google 和 YouTube 担任各种 PM 职位。

Lenny: Coming back to noticing.

莱尼：回来注意一下。

It comes up again and again in our chat.

它在我们的聊天中一次又一次地出现。

This is so interesting because it feels like you basically came from the mail room of tech to the top of the product field.

这很有趣，因为感觉你基本上是从技术收发室来到产品领域的顶端。

And so I think there's a lot of inspiration people can take from this journey.

所以我认为人们可以从这次旅程中获得很多灵感。

One quick question is how long was that journey from not being a PM, from I guess being at a tech company to getting your first PM role?

一个简单的问题是，从不担任产品经理（我想是在一家科技公司）到获得第一个产品经理职位，这段旅程需要多长时间？

Just to give people a sense.

只是为了给人一种感觉。

Lane Shackleton: Let's see.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：让我们看看。

I probably worked for at least four, five years before being able to move to PM and I think that was a slightly harrowing journey because at the time, you had to have a computer science degree.

在能够晋升为 PM 之前，我可能工作了至少四、五年，我认为这是一个有点痛苦的旅程，因为当时，你必须拥有计算机科学学位。

Lenny: At Google.

莱尼：在谷歌。

Right.

正确的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

So I think that's one takeaway too is give it time.

所以我认为这也是一个要点，那就是给它时间。

It's not going to happen.

这不会发生。

There's a lot of people that are just like, "I need to become a PM immediately."

有很多人会说，“我需要立即成为一名总理。”

Lenny: I think that's a good example of it's not going to happen overnight.

莱尼：我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明这不会在一夜之间发生。

Coming back to your two lessons, I think they're really interesting and I'm curious if there's anything else that comes to mind of what you found was essential to you succeeding in this path?

回到你的两节课，我认为它们真的很有趣，我很好奇你是否还想到了其他什么东西对你在这条道路上取得成功至关重要？

So the first lesson you shared as being customer facing.

因此，您分享的第一课是面向客户。

And in this case being in retail as customer facing, is your advice get in a tech company and work on something customers use or is even working at Starbucks or Abercrombie, does that count?

在这种情况下，在面向客户的零售业，你的建议是在一家科技公司获得的，并致力于客户使用的东西，甚至是在星巴克或阿伯克龙比工作，这算吗？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

I think maybe to relate it to what you just said, if I were to give advice to someone who really aspires to be a PM or trying to get into PM, I think in many cases if you're in a customer facing role, you are the expert on the customer and that is really, really valuable in tech organizations.

我想也许可以将其与您刚才所说的联系起来，如果我要向真正渴望成为 PM 或试图进入 PM 的人提供建议，我认为在很多情况下，如果您担任面向客户的角色，您就是客户方面的专家，这在技术组织中非常非常有价值。

And oftentimes it's undervalued.

而且它的价值常常被低估。

And so I think people who want to move into PM roles who are not currently in PM roles can often lever that experience and that knowledge of the customer in ways that are pretty profound for the organization and pretty insightful for the organization if they really are creative about it.

因此，我认为那些目前没有担任 PM 角色的人，如果他们确实有创造力，通常可以以对组织非常深刻和富有洞察力的方式利用客户的经验和知识。

And then I think the other thing is, regardless of where you are in the organization, you're always serving a customer.

我认为另一件事是，无论你在组织中的哪个位置，你总是在为客户服务。

You can't just talk to one big enterprise customer and you can't just talk to the smallest customer.

你不能只与一个大企业客户交谈，也不能只与最小的客户交谈。

You have to have a diverse and continuous stream of customer interactions in order to have good intuitions about what to do next.

您必须拥有多样化且持续的客户互动流，才能对下一步该做什么有良好的直觉。

And your engineers aren't going to really trust you unless you have good intuitions about where the customer's headed and what they want and stuff like that.

除非你对客户的发展方向、他们想要什么以及类似的东西有很好的直觉，否则你的工程师不会真正信任你。

And so the stakes I think are pretty high.

所以我认为风险相当高。

The good news is it's easier than ever with all these tools to really get into the mindset of a customer.

好消息是，使用所有这些工具比以往任何时候都更容易真正了解客户的思维方式。

Lenny: My lesson touches on something a previous guest talked about, Paige Costello, where she was often the youngest person in the room and built a lot of respect and people really trusted her over time.

莱尼：我的课程涉及到之前一位客人谈到的事情，佩奇​​·科斯特洛，她经常是房间里最年轻的人，赢得了很多尊重，随着时间的推移，人们真的信任她。

And her lesson was know thy customer.

她的教训是了解你的客户。

If you know the most about what they need, and you can show, here's what I've heard again and again and again, people will just like, "Oh Lane, tell us more." And they bring you into conversation because providing value, you're not just there sharing opinions.

如果你最了解他们的需求，并且你可以展示，这是我一次又一次听到的，人们会喜欢，“哦莱恩，告诉我们更多。”他们让你参与对话，因为提供价值，你不仅仅是在那里分享意见。

Everyone's got opinions.

每个人都有意见。

Lane Shackleton: That's basically how both me and ...

莱恩·沙克尔顿：基本上我和......

I had a friend named Bill Ferrell who transitioned into PM at the same time and that's essentially how we got the try at being a PM inside of Google was we knew the customer really, really well and we were often in conversations bridging the gap from here's what I think they're really saying, or here's what I think we should build based on what they said.

我有一个名叫 Bill Ferrell 的朋友，他同时晋升为 PM，这就是我们在 Google 内部尝试成为 PM 的方式，因为我们非常非常了解客户，并且我们经常进行对话，以弥合与我认为他们真正所说的之间的差距，或者这是我认为我们应该根据他们所说的构建的内容。

Lenny: The other thing I wanted to mention, you talked about the product and how a lot of customers don't care about the product, they just care about just I need this thing done.

莱尼：我想提的另一件事是，你谈到了产品，以及很多客户并不关心产品，他们只关心我需要完成这件事。

It reminds me at Airbnb, we hired this guy, Chip Connolly, who was a hotelier.

这让我想起了在 Airbnb，我们雇佣了一个叫 Chip Connolly 的人，他是一名酒店经营者。

He created the Joie de Vivre hotel chain and just is steeped in hospitality.

他创建了 Joie de Vivre 连锁酒店，并热衷于热情好客。

And he came to Airbnb and started doing this worldwide tour talking to hosts.

他来到 Airbnb 并开始进行这次全球巡演并与房东交谈。

And he's just like, "Guys, when you talk about product, you're telling hosts, 'Hey, the product's going to be updated.

他就像是，“伙计们，当你们谈论产品时，你们是在告诉主持人，‘嘿，产品将会更新。

We're going to launch all these features.', they think their home is the product of Airbnb.

我们将推出所有这些功能。”，他们认为自己的家是 Airbnb 的产品。

They don't understand what you're talking about when you're talking about the online experience and the website.

当您谈论在线体验和网站时，他们不明白您在说什么。

That's the last thing they think about.

这是他们最后想到的事情。

It's the experience of someone traveling on Airbnb and staying in their home." So I think it's a really good reminder of most people don't care about the product.

这是人们在 Airbnb 上旅行并住在自己家中的体验。”所以我认为这很好地提醒了大多数人并不关心该产品。

They just have this problem and you just happen to be this website that'll help them solve it.

他们只是遇到了这个问题，而您恰好是这个可以帮助他们解决问题的网站。

Lane Shackleton: I think most people can be way more concise with their communication.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我认为大多数人的沟通方式都可以更加简洁。

Even internally, people don't care.

即使在内部，人们也不关心。

You should assume that people don't care.

你应该假设人们不在乎。

Or if you're talking to customers, writing a blog post for customers, you should assume that they don't care.

或者，如果您正在与客户交谈，为客户撰写博客文章，您应该假设他们不在乎。

When you start with that assumption, you really force yourself to be a little bit sharper in your communication style.

当你从这个假设开始时，你真的会强迫自己在沟通方式上变得更加敏锐。

Lenny: And one final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后一个问题。

I heard a story that at Coda there's this moment called Tim Ferriss Day that drove a lot of traffic.

我听说过一个故事，在 Coda 有一个叫做 Tim Ferriss Day 的时刻，吸引了很多流量。

Can you share that story?

你能分享那个故事吗？

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

There's lots of memorable days at Coda.

在 Coda 有很多难忘的日子。

One of them was Tim Ferris Day.

其中之一是蒂姆·费里斯·戴 (Tim Ferris Day)。

So I guess maybe for context, we had built this very nascent publisher motion where we were going out and helping people publish their rituals.

所以我想也许为了背景，我们建立了这个非常新生的出版商动议，我们出去帮助人们出版他们的仪式。

And this is what you see in the Coda Gallery and a lot of what we talked about today.

这就是您在 Coda Gallery 中看到的内容以及我们今天讨论的很多内容。

But we had this one person on that team, this guy Al Chen, Tim Ferriss fan, and also I think had been really tenacious with the people around Tim Ferriss and basically finally got an in to him and figured out a really neat way to implement one of his rituals and wrote a doc.

但我们团队中有一个人，这个人阿尔·陈（Al Chen），蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）的粉丝，而且我认为他对蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）周围的人非常顽强，基本上最终接触到了他，并找到了一种非常巧妙的方法来实施他的一个仪式，并写了一份文档。

And so none of us really knew this, but this was all happening.

所以我们没有人真正知道这一点，但这一切正在发生。

And anyway, we wake up one morning and traffic is just spiking through the roof, signups are spiking, no one knows what's going on.

不管怎样，有一天早上我们醒来，流量激增，注册人数激增，没有人知道发生了什么。

Lane Shackleton: I'm convinced this is all spam.

Lane Shackleton：我确信这都是垃圾邮件。

I'm like, "Something's wrong with our data or something's going haywire." At the time, we were also in the China Basin office and the fire alarm went off.

我想，“我们的数据出了问题，或者出了问题。”当时，我们也在中国盆地办公室，火警警报响起。

And so now we're outside on our laptops.

现在我们在外面使用笔记本电脑。

We were in a war room trying to figure out what was happening and now we're outside trying to figure out what's going on.

我们在作战室里试图弄清楚发生了什么，现在我们在外面试图弄清楚发生了什么。

So anyway, make a long story short, data scientists investigate and we eventually figured out that we had been featured in Tim Ferriss' email newsletter and I think early on you hear this lesson or this adage of first time founder, build a great product, second time founder, build a great distribution.

所以无论如何，长话短说，数据科学家进行了调查，我们最终发现我们已经出现在 Tim Ferriss 的电子邮件时事通讯中，我想您很早就听到了这个教训或第一次创始人的这句格言，打造一个伟大的产品，第二次创始人，建立一个伟大的发行版。

I think that was one of those early big cues to think about the importance of content distribution and the importance of these publishing flywheels.

我认为这是思考内容分发的重要性和这些出版飞轮的重要性的早期重要线索之一。

And it definitely made us double down.

这确实让我们加倍努力。

We're like, "Okay, if we can do this with Tim Ferriss, what's next?" And we definitely spent a few months trying to reach that high watermark that was set that day in traffic and sign-ups.

我们会想，“好吧，如果我们能和蒂姆·费里斯一起做到这一点，下一步是什么？”我们确实花了几个月的时间试图达到当天设定的流量和注册量的高水位。

So it was a fun memorable day and people for the subsequent one or two years would refer to it as Tim Ferriss Day.

因此，这是一个有趣而难忘的一天，随后一两年的人们将其称为蒂姆·费里斯日。

Lenny: So funny.

莱尼：真有趣。

I bet Tim Ferriss had no idea what he did.

我敢打赌蒂姆·费里斯不知道他做了什么。

Lenny: Hoping you have a Lenny's podcast day once this comes out.

莱尼：希望这篇文章发布后你能度过一个莱尼的播客日。

Everyone's going to be freaking out.

每个人都会吓坏了。

What is going on here?

这是怎么回事？

Is there anything else you wanted to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Lane Shackleton: Maybe we're talking really briefly about two-way writeups.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：也许我们正在简短地讨论双向写作。

Lenny: Yeah, let's do it.

莱尼：是啊，我们就这么做吧。

I had that in my notes, but I skipped it, so I'm glad you mentioned it.

我的笔记中有这一点，但我跳过了它，所以我很高兴你提到它。

Lane Shackleton: Cool.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：酷。

Yeah, I mean this is a concept that I wrote a bunch about and I often now get asked about, and I guess maybe the historical view of this, I got really obsessed with the history of how work gets discussed and decided upon and broke it down into three phases.

是的，我的意思是，这是一个我写了很多文章的概念，现在经常被问到，我想也许是历史观点，我真的很着迷于工作如何讨论和决定的历史，并将其分为三个阶段。

And so the first phase was 1980s we had PowerPoint.

第一阶段是 20 世纪 80 年代，我们有了 PowerPoint。

It was this amazing tool.

这是一个了不起的工具。

You could manipulate shapes on a screen and we were all using fancy clip art and it was really fun, but we've all had the experience of being in a really long PowerPoint presentation and someone's droning on in their slides and stuff like that.

你可以在屏幕上操纵形状，我们都使用精美的剪贴画，这真的很有趣，但我们都有过在很长的 PowerPoint 演示文稿中有人在幻灯片和类似内容中喋喋不休的经历。

Second phase is in the early 2000s, two things converged.

第二阶段是2000年代初期，两件事趋于一致。

One was Google bought this company called Rightly that became Google Docs.

其中之一是 Google 收购了这家名为 Rightly 的公司，后来成为 Google Docs。

So instead of having Word on your desktop and sending files around you now had online collaborative editing.

因此，现在不再需要在桌面上放置 Word 并在周围发送文件，而是进行在线协作编辑。

Lane Shackleton: And the other thing was Jeff Bezos sent this very famous memo, which basically said no more PowerPoint at Amazon.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：另一件事是杰夫·贝佐斯发送了这份非常著名的备忘录，基本上说亚马逊不再使用 PowerPoint。

And what that did was started in earnest their six pager ritual.

这就是他们认真开始的六寻呼机仪式。

You can read all about this in the book Working Backwards.

您可以在《逆向工作》一书中阅读所有相关内容。

It's a really good book.

这真是一本好书。

Colin Breyer's book.

科林·布雷耶的书。

And so that started I think what I'll call the one-way writeup phase, which is you're writing down your ideas, you're expressing them clearly.

因此，我认为我称之为单向写作阶段，即你写下你的想法，你清楚地表达它们。

It's in prose so you have to be really clear.

这是散文，所以你必须非常清楚。

That was a big step up I think from always presenting work and deciding on work via presentations.

我认为，与总是通过演示来展示作品和决定作品相比，这是一个很大的进步。

And then the thesis is that we're in the midst of a new phase, which is essentially two-way writeups and that's where it's more conversational and feedback and discussion is actually part of the content itself.

然后论文是，我们正处于一个新阶段，这本质上是双向写作，这就是更多对话性的地方，反馈和讨论实际上是内容本身的一部分。

So that's the broader historical arc.

这就是更广泛的历史轨迹。

But if you think about it, PMs and product people are always at the brunt.

但如果你仔细想想，PM 和产品人员总是首当其冲。

Lane Shackleton: They feel this the most because they're the ones that are driving decisions and really the ones that are driving discussions oftentimes in companies.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：他们对此感受最深，因为他们是推动决策的人，而且确实是公司经常推动讨论的人。

And so I think the problem with one-way writeups I felt very deeply at Google and YouTube.

因此，我认为单向报道的问题是我在 Google 和 YouTube 上感受非常深的。

And just to name them, the first one is you would always be trying to figure out who's read your write-up.

仅举几个例子，第一个是你总是想弄清楚谁读了你的文章。

So I have many memories of sending a write-up out at 11:30 PM and then waiting patiently for the avatar of the SVP in my area to show up in there.

所以我有很多回忆，在晚上 11:30 发送一篇文章，然后耐心等待我所在地区的 SVP 的头像出现在那里。

And that was a sign that they had read it, which is just totally insane if you think about that behavior.

这表明他们已经读过它，如果你想想这种行为，这真是太疯狂了。

The second one is you end up having a lot of the discussion in the comments itself.

第二个是你最终会在评论本身中进行大量讨论。

So this is a space that's really built for grammar and spell checking and things like that.

所以这是一个真正为语法和拼写检查等而构建的空间。

And you're having these really meaningful discussions in this a hundred pixel right margin.

您将在这个一百像素的右边距中进行这些真正有意义的讨论。

Lane Shackleton: And part of that I think is there are all these questions that are being raised, and so you have really no idea what the most important question is.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我认为其中一部分原因是人们提出了所有这些问题，所以你真的不知道最重要的问题是什么。

And so if you're facilitating those discussions in one way writeups, you're often going through the comments in the 20 minutes before that session trying to figure out which one of these do I want to address.

因此，如果您以一种方式撰写文章来促进这些讨论，那么您通常会在会议开始前的 20 分钟内浏览评论，试图找出我想解决其中的哪一个。

And then the other behavior, and I don't know if you've ever seen this in a doc, but in one way writeups that you see a lot is there'll be just a mega comment thread on the title of the doc.

然后是另一种行为，我不知道您是否在文档中见过这种行为，但在某种程度上，您经常看到的文章是在文档标题上只有一个巨大的评论线程。

And people are like, "I don't think we should do this," or you'll get into this 30 comment thread on the title because that's the best place to put your overall thoughts.

人们会说，“我认为我们不应该这样做”，否则您将进入标题上的 30 条评论线程，因为这是表达您总体想法的最佳位置。

And I saw this pattern all the time.

我一直看到这种模式。

So if you live that life, I think the world of two-way writeups and the way that I think a lot of our customers are doing it, and you can do this on other tools besides Coda too, I think is quite a bit better.

因此，如果你过着这种生活，我认为双向写作的世界以及我认为我们很多客户正在做的方式，你也可以在除了 Coda 之外的其他工具上做到这一点，我认为更好。

Lane Shackleton: I guess the alternative to go down that list is you have a done reading button at the end of a writeup.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：我想，沿着该列表的另一种选择是在文章末尾有一个完成阅读按钮。

So now you can say, oh, these are all the people that have read this.

所以现在你可以说，哦，这些都是读过这篇文章的人。

And I think even you see a pattern in some of our customers where if it's a particularly long writeup, you'll have three done reading buttons so you can see where everyone has gotten to.

我认为即使你在我们的一些客户中看到了一种模式，如果这是一篇特别长的文章，你也会有三个完成阅读按钮，这样你就可以看到每个人都读到了什么地方。

And then the second thing is making sure that you're actually addressing the most important question.

第二件事是确保你确实在解决最重要的问题。

So instead of pulling questions out of the comments and trying to figure out which one to address, just putting those in a table and then letting people upload those.

因此，与其从评论中提取问题并试图找出要解决的问题，不如将这些问题放在表格中，然后让人们上传。

And that's what we call Dory.

这就是我们所说的多莉。

And then I think probably the most valuable is sentiment or pulse, which is, well, how do you feel overall about this particular proposal?

然后我认为最有价值的可能是情绪或脉搏，也就是说，你对这个特定提案的总体感觉如何？

Lane Shackleton: And if you think about the contrast between a comment thread on the title and seeing a list of all the sentiment, how everybody feels about this proposal and really being inclusive to the entire audience is just wildly different.

莱恩·沙克尔顿（Lane Shackleton）：如果你考虑一下标题上的评论线程和看到所有情绪列表之间的对比，那么每个人对这个提案的感受以及真正包容所有观众的感受都是截然不同的。

I think in my particular experience.

我认为以我的特殊经历。

I'll give you one example.

我给你举一个例子。

I wrote this proposal, this is now a couple years ago.

我写了这个提案，现在已经是几年前的事了。

I thought it was going to sail through no problem.

我以为它会毫无问题地航行。

I thought it was going to get four out of five and five out of five smiley faces from everybody.

我认为每个人都会得到五分之四和五分之五的笑脸。

That's sort of how the sentiment table works.

这就是情绪表的工作原理。

And one of the lead designers basically said, "One smiley face.

一位首席设计师基本上说，“一张笑脸。

We shouldn't do this." And I was like, oh man.

我们不应该这样做。”我当时想，天哪。

This particular person's not really vocal in meetings.

这个人在会议上并没有真正发声。

And so I would not have heard that feedback.

所以我不会听到这样的反馈。

It was very unlikely I would've heard that feedback unless they had had a sentiment table, a place to add that.

我不太可能听到这样的反馈，除非他们有一个情绪表，一个可以添加反馈的地方。

And so I think the punchline on all of this is I really authentically believe that this is where we're headed and hope that a lot of PMs and product teams adopt this in general.

所以我认为所有这一切的要点是我真的相信这就是我们的发展方向，并希望很多产品经理和产品团队普遍采用这一点。

Lenny: I'm so glad that we touched on it and there's a template or an explanation of this that you wrote up that we'll link to.

莱尼：我很高兴我们谈到了它，并且您写了一个模板或对此的解释，我们将链接到它。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there anything else that you think that we should touch on that we haven't touched on?

还有哪些您认为我们应该讨论但我们尚未讨论的内容吗？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的。

I think one thing that we've discussed before is just about strategy and planning and stuff like that.

我认为我们之前讨论过的一件事就是关于战略和规划之类的事情。

So it may be useful to touch on a couple of insights there.

因此，谈谈一些见解可能会很有用。

I think there's two insights in the strategy and planning thing.

我认为战略和规划方面有两个见解。

And this is again in the handbook that we're writing, but the first that I end up seeing a lot is just this idea that OKRs are not actually strategy.

这又出现在我们正在编写的手册中，但我最终看到的第一个想法就是 OKR 实际上并不是战略。

So I think the way that we plan and the way that our customers plan, the key point is it's critical to disconnect strategy discussions from OKR discussions.

因此，我认为我们的计划方式以及我们的客户计划的方式，关键是将战略讨论与 OKR 讨论分开。

And it sounds really obvious, but it's I think a very common mistake.

这听起来很明显，但我认为这是一个非常常见的错误。

And I think a really simple question to ask yourself is do we have a separate strategy process or strategy ritual that is distinct from OKR setting and metric setting and goal setting?

我认为要问自己的一个非常简单的问题是，我们是否有一个独立的战略流程或战略仪式，与 OKR 设置、指标设置和目标设置不同？

And I have found you can pick whatever strategy framework works for you, but I do think it's quite important to pull those two things apart.

我发现你可以选择任何适合你的策略框架，但我确实认为将这两件事分开非常重要。

Lane Shackleton: The other rule that we live by on the planning side is what we call a 10% planning rule, which is essentially just ensure that you're not for a given time period planning for more than 10% of that execution period.

Lane Shackleton：我们在规划方面遵循的另一条规则是我们所说的 10% 规划规则，它本质上只是确保您在给定时间段内的规划时间不会超过该执行周期的 10%。

And I think this is a really easy mistake to make.

我认为这是一个很容易犯的错误。

I mean, this is a hard fought rule because we've made that mistake before.

我的意思是，这是一条很难遵守的规则，因为我们以前就犯过这样的错误。

But you end up getting bogged down in planning or saying, planning felt rushed and so we need to make it three weeks instead of one week or whatever.

但你最终会陷入计划之中，或者说，计划感觉很匆忙，所以我们需要三周而不是一周或其他时间。

And the byproduct of that over the course of a lot of time is that you end up just planning way too much and oftentimes you really don't know what's ahead until you've launched or learned something.

经过很长一段时间的副产品是，你最终会计划得太多，而且常常在你启动或学到一些东西之前，你真的不知道未来会发生什么。

And so I think that's a pretty good rule to follow.

所以我认为这是一个很好遵循的规则。

Lenny: I love that rule.

莱尼：我喜欢这条规则。

I found the same heuristic.

我发现了同样的启发。

10%.

10%。

If you're planning for a week, plan for half a day, planning for a month, maybe like three days.

如果你计划一周，计划半天，计划一个月，也许三天。

Yeah, I love it.

是的，我喜欢它。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Lane Shackleton: One that comes to mind is Turning the Flywheel.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我想到的是转动飞轮。

It's a little manuscript book.

这是一本小手稿书。

Jim Collins wrote it.

吉姆·柯林斯写的。

It's really, I think a very succinct and very fast read about how flywheels work.

我认为这确实是一本关于飞轮如何工作的非常简洁且非常快速的读物。

We talked about Storyworthy.

我们讨论了值得讲故事的话题。

I recommend that book a lot.

我非常推荐那本书。

Good Strategy/Bad Strategy.

好策略/坏策略。

Love that book.

喜欢那本书。

Very simple framework that I've reused a bunch.

非常简单的框架，我已经重复使用了很多。

Maybe outside of tech, Waking Up is a book by Sam Harris on mindfulness that I really like.

也许在科技之外，《醒来》是山姆·哈里斯写的一本关于正念的书，我非常喜欢。

And then an old one that I really like is The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Galway, which is a kind of classic.

然后我非常喜欢的一本旧书是蒂莫西·戈尔韦（Timothy Galway）的《网球的内心游戏》，这是一种经典。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

On Good Strategy/Bad Strategy, I'm working on getting Richard Rumelt on the podcast.

关于好策略/坏策略，我正在努力让理查德·鲁梅尔特加入播客。

I'm in talks with his agent and they seem to be excited.

我正在和他的经纪人谈判，他们似乎很兴奋。

So we'll hope that actually happens.

所以我们希望这真的发生。

And then you inspired me to try to get the Storyworthy guy on.

然后你激励我尝试让那个值得讲故事的人加入。

So what a cast of characters we're going to get on here.

那么我们将在这里扮演什么样的角色呢？

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Lane Shackleton: Yeah, it's a little bit hard with three kids and a job these days to watch a lot of TV.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：是的，现在带着三个孩子和一份工作看很多电视有点困难。

I would say I really enjoyed The Last Dance.

我想说我真的很喜欢《最后之舞》。

I love any sports documentary.

我喜欢任何体育纪录片。

All those.

所有这些。

Lenny: Have you seen Underrated, Steph Curry's new documentary?

莱尼：你看过斯蒂芬·库里的新纪录片《被低估》吗？

Lane Shackleton: No, I haven't.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：不，我没有。

I got to watch that.

我得看那个。

Lane Shackleton: I've been rewatching Arrested Development.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我一直在重看《发展受阻》。

That's also just a timeless classic.

这也是永恒的经典。

Lenny: Classic.

莱尼：经典。

I love that Michael Cera is in the Barbie movie, not to give any spoilers.

我喜欢迈克尔·塞拉出现在芭比娃娃电影中，但不想剧透。

That was a funny surprise.

这是一个有趣的惊喜。

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Lane Shackleton: There's two I really like.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：有两个我非常喜欢。

One is teach me something that I don't already know.

一是教我一些我还不知道的东西。

I think it's just an awesome way of seeing if someone's going to lean in and really figure out what you don't know and then how passionate they are about pitching what they do know I think is really fun.

我认为这是一种很棒的方式，可以看到有人是否愿意投入并真正弄清楚你不知道的东西，然后他们对推销他们所知道的东西有多么热情，我认为这真的很有趣。

And then Shishir and I have been asking a version of teleporter question and evolving it for many years now, so I like that question quite a bit.

然后 Shishir 和我多年来一直在问一个版本的传送器问题并不断发展它，所以我非常喜欢这个问题。

Lenny: Shishir shared that question in his episode and we make TikTok clips out of some of these conversations and that clip just went crazy.

Lenny：Shishir 在他的节目中分享了这个问题，我们根据其中一些对话制作了 TikTok 剪辑，那个剪辑简直太疯狂了。

People love it.

人们喜欢它。

It's our most viewed clip, I think on TikTok.

我认为这是我们在 TikTok 上观看次数最多的视频。

Or just like, what would your answer to that question, so we'll try to link to it in the show notes if you want to watch just that one interview question.

或者就像，您对这个问题的答案是什么，所以如果您只想观看一个采访问题，我们将尝试在节目笔记中链接到它。

I think you maybe gave it away, so maybe that's why you're evolving it.

我想你可能把它放弃了，所以也许这就是你进化它的原因。

Lane Shackleton: I also recently wrote a post about my favorite ref check question, which I think I would love to learn other people's favorite ref check questions.

Lane Shackleton：我最近还写了一篇关于我最喜欢的裁判检查问题的文章，我想我很想了解其他人最喜欢的裁判检查问题。

Lenny: References check.

莱尼：参考资料检查。

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

That's its own.

那是它自己的。

Oh man, I'd love to do a podcast just on that.

天啊，我很想就此做一个播客。

That is such an important skill.

这是一项非常重要的技能。

The first question you mentioned of asking people to teach you something, I heard the best version of that in a previous episode where Maya, the Head of Product for Spotify podcasts, asks what would your podcast be if you were to start a podcast?

你提到的第一个问题是要求人们教你一些东西，我在上一集中听到了最好的版本，其中 Spotify 播客产品主管 Maya 问，如果你要开始播客，你的播客会是什么？

Lane Shackleton: I sometimes do a version of making them explain it two different ways after, and making the candidate explain it two different ways and saying, "Okay, now you have to explain that to your grandparent." And then now you just told me about sewing or some hobby of yours.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我有时会做一个版本，让他们用两种不同的方式解释，然后让候选人用两种不同的方式解释，然后说，“好吧，现在你必须向你的祖父母解释这一点。”现在你刚刚告诉我有关缝纫或你的一些爱好。

Now sell it in its most technical form to someone who knows everything about this particular topic.

现在，以最技术性的形式将其出售给对该特定主题了如指掌的人。

And so it's kind of fun to also see the range that people can operate.

因此，看到人们可以操作的范围也很有趣。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Either digital or physical, anything that comes to mind?

无论是数字的还是物理的，你想到了什么？

Lane Shackleton: A few.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：有一些。

I'm becoming a real sleep nerd, so those eye masks that cup around your eyes, I love.

我正在成为一个真正的睡眠书呆子，所以我喜欢那些遮住眼睛的眼罩。

Obviously in the tech world, ChatGPT.

显然在科技界，ChatGPT。

I got really obsessed with tennis during the pandemic.

疫情期间我对网球非常着迷。

There's a product called Swing Vision that's really good.

有一个产品叫Swing Vision，非常好。

It basically cuts up your match into different ...

它基本上将你的比赛分成不同的......

All of your forehands or all the longest rallies or all that and uses AI to do that.

你所有的正手或所有最长的对打或所有这些都使用人工智能来做到这一点。

There's a corresponding meditation app to the book Waking Up that I really like.

我非常喜欢《Wakeing Up》这本书，有一个相应的冥想应用程序。

That one's a very good one.

那是一个非常好的一个。

Lenny: We live not so far from each other, so we got to play some tennis and I could check out this very cool product.

莱尼：我们住的地方离彼此不远，所以我们必须打网球，我可以看看这个非常酷的产品。

Lenny: You're on.

莱尼：你来了。

That'll be our sequel.

那将是我们的续集。

Just our game.

只是我们的游戏。

Next question.

下一个问题。

What is a favorite life motto that you either repeat to yourself often, like to share with people around you, share with your kids maybe?

您经常对自己重复、喜欢与周围的人分享、也许与您的孩子分享的最喜欢的人生座右铭是什么？

Lane Shackleton: I don't know if it's as motto as much as it's just a way of being.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我不知道这是否是座右铭，因为它只是一种存在方式。

It's essentially the present moment is all that we have.

本质上，当下就是我们所拥有的一切。

Realizing that our attention is very often on the past or the future and in so many ways the present is where it should be always.

意识到我们的注意力经常集中在过去或未来，从很多方面来说，现在才是它应该永远在的地方。

And so I think that that is something I think about a lot.

所以我认为这是我经常思考的事情。

I think maybe more broadly, I had a mentor who roughly said a version of make things happen, and so I really try to apply that to anything that I do.

我想也许更广泛地说，我有一位导师粗略地说了“让事情发生”的一个版本，所以我真的尝试将其应用到我所做的任何事情中。

If that's work or life or sports, I try to be the person who creates momentum and positive change and progress.

如果这是工作、生活或运动，我会努力成为创造动力、积极改变和进步的人。

And so I think that that's generally a good motto to live by.

所以我认为这通常是一个很好的座右铭。

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

What is the most valuable lesson that your mom or your dad taught?

你的妈妈或爸爸教给你的最有价值的一课是什么？

Lane Shackleton: My mom's a psychologist and a professional counselor so certainly active listening.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：我妈妈是一名心理学家和专业咨询师，所以肯定会积极倾听。

Maybe the tech version of that or the modern version of that is steal manning someone's argument, being able to repeat back to someone what they said in a better form, more clear form.

也许技术版本或现代版本是窃取某人的论点，能够以更好、更清晰的形式向某人重复他们所说的话。

So yeah, she's an amazing woman.

是的，她是一个了不起的女人。

Taught me a lot about listening.

教会了我很多关于倾听的知识。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You were a guide in Alaska helping people climb.

你是阿拉斯加的一名向导，帮助人们攀登。

If someone were to pursue climbing, is there a tip or a lesson or something that you think people should know to get better at this or to know before they go down this route?

如果有人要追求攀岩，您认为人们应该知道一些技巧、教训或其他东西，以便在这方面做得更好，或者在走这条路线之前应该知道吗？

Lane Shackleton: There's a saying, which is the safest climber is the one who knows when to come down essentially.

莱恩·沙克尔顿：有句话说，最安全的登山者是那些本质上知道什么时候下来的人。

And I think that there are many times that you have to put your ego in check and come off a mountain or come out of a climb because it's not quite as safe as you thought it was.

我认为很多时候你必须克制自己的自我，从山上下来或爬完山，因为它并不像你想象的那么安全。

So I think that's maybe one.

所以我认为这可能是其中之一。

I think the other is it's probably not a one-way door.

我认为另一个是它可能不是一扇单向门。

So I think in many ways you can do climbing and you can do some of these outdoor pursuits on the side, or you can always come back from them.

所以我认为你可以通过很多方式进行攀岩，你可以兼职做一些户外活动，或者你可以随时从这些活动中回来。

So it's maybe not as big of a choice as some people think it is.

因此，这可能并不像某些人想象的那么大。

Lenny: Lane, I said at the top of this episode, Coda has one of the most thoughtful product teams out there, and I think it'll be clear to people after listening to this why that's the case and where it trickles down from.

Lenny：Lane，我在本集开头说过，Coda 拥有最有思想的产品团队之一，我想人们在听完这个之后就会清楚为什么会出现这种情况以及它从何而来。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and ask you any other questions?

如果人们想联系您并询问任何其他问题，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Lane Shackleton: I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter and I have a Substack.

Lane Shackleton：我在 LinkedIn 和 Twitter 上，并且有一个 Substack。

We'll be releasing that handbook for product teams that I will probably post on Substack.

我们将为产品团队发布该手册，我可能会将其发布在 Substack 上。

And in terms of useful to me, yeah, give Coda a try.

就对我有用而言，是的，尝试一下 Coda。

Give us feedback.

给我们反馈。

I love hearing from product people all over.

我喜欢听到各地产品人员的意见。

It's one of the bright spots in my day to hear all the creative rituals that come from this community.

听到来自这个社区的所有创意仪式是我这一天的亮点之一。

You've created just a legendary community of people and so they always give very thoughtful feedback so I'm very open to all of that.

你们创建了一个传奇的社区，所以他们总是提供非常周到的反馈，所以我对所有这些都非常开放。

And yeah, thanks for having me.

是的，谢谢你邀请我。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Lane, thank you again so much for being here.

莱恩，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。