Kunal Shah on winning in India, second-order thinking, the philosophy of startups, and more

Microsoft, Adobe, Alphabet, IBM, Palo Alto Networks, even Starbucks, the CEOs of these companies were all born in India and immigrated to the US.

微软、Adobe、Alphabet、IBM、Palo Alto Networks，甚至星巴克，这些公司的首席执行官都出生在印度，移民到美国。

A lot of CEOs have done well because they follow the “dharma” of the founders quite well.

许多首席执行官做得很好，因为他们很好地遵循了创始人的“佛法”。

“These are the principles that were given to me and I'm going to sustain this and make it even bigger.”

“这些是给予我的原则，我将坚持这一原则并使其变得更大。”

I want to keep talking about India and how it's different and how to build products that are successful in India.

我想继续谈论印度，以及它的不同之处，以及如何打造在印度取得成功的产品。

No Indian has ever been paid an hourly salary in their entire life.

没有一个印度人一生中拿过小时工资。

The concept of time is not the same.

时间的概念不一样。

What do you see as the biggest opportunity for Indian startups?

您认为印度初创企业最大的机会是什么？

India is changing because now, for the first time, we are seeing founders being respected and unicorns being celebrated.

印度正在发生变化，因为现在我们第一次看到创始人受到尊重，独角兽受到庆祝。

We have a National Startup Day, and probably the first generation that will have to prove ourselves to be very large profitable companies.

我们有一个全国创业日，可能是第一代人必须证明自己是非常盈利的大型公司。

I wouldn't want to be anywhere else building.

我不想去其他任何地方建造。

Kunal is one of the most well-known and respected entrepreneurs and product leaders in India and around the world.

库纳尔是印度和世界各地最知名、最受尊敬的企业家和产品领导者之一。

He shares endless wisdom on Twitter and LinkedIn where he has over 1 million followers.

他在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上分享无尽的智慧，他在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上拥有超过 100 万粉丝。

He's the CEO and founder of CRED, a FinTech startup based in India, which was last valued at over $6 billion and as of couple years ago processed over 20% of all credit card bill payments in India.

他是 CRED 的首席执行官兼创始人，CRED 是一家位于印度的金融科技初创公司，其最新估值超过 60 亿美元，截至几年前，该公司处理了印度所有信用卡账单支付的 20% 以上。

Prior to CRED, he founded three other startups including Freecharge, which he sold for over $400 million to Snapdeal.

在加入 CRED 之前，他还创立了另外三家初创公司，其中包括 Freecharge，并以 4 亿多美元的价格将其卖给了 Snapdeal。

Kunal is a deep thinker, both about product and about life.

Kunal 是一位对产品和生活都有深刻思考的人。

His background is actually in philosophy, which comes across very clearly when you hear him share his advice.

他的背景实际上是哲学，当你听到他分享他的建议时，这一点就会非常明显。

In our conversation, we get deep into what makes working and building in India different from the US markets and other markets, including why trust is so essential and why so many people are so much more risk-averse in India.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了印度工作和建筑与美国市场和其他市场的不同之处，包括为什么信任如此重要，以及为什么这么多人在印度更加厌恶风险。

We talk about the biggest challenges and opportunities within the India market, why there are so many successful Indian immigrants in CEO roles across tech, and what we can learn from that.

我们讨论印度市场中最大的挑战和机遇，为什么有这么多成功的印度移民担任科技领域的首席执行官，以及我们可以从中学到什么。

Also, why companies in India can quickly grow DAUs but not ARPUs, and what that means for building products in India.

此外，为什么印度的公司可以快速增加 DAU 而不能快速增加 ARPU，以及这对于在印度生产产品意味着什么。

We also talk about how to stay curious and open-minded and the power of second order thinking.

我们还讨论了如何保持好奇心和开放的心态以及二阶思维的力量。

Also, stories of failure, lots of contrarian takes and so much more.

此外，还有失败的故事、大量逆向思维等等。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢此播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 上订阅并关注此播客。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

A big thank you to Cyan, my ET, for making the connection to Kunal.

非常感谢我的外星人 Cyan 与 Kunal 建立了联系。

With that, I bring you Kunal Shah after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Kunal Shah。

This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 Skim 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features, and hundreds of other companies are already powered by WorkOS including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

他们的 API 很容易理解，因此您可以快速交付并重新构建其他功能，并且数百家其他公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom。

WorkOS also recently launched AuthKit, a complete authentication and user management service.

WorkOS 最近还推出了 AuthKit，这是一项完整的身份验证和用户管理服务。

It's essentially a modern alternative to Auth0, but with better pricing and more flexible APIs.

它本质上是 Auth0 的现代替代品，但具有更好的定价和更灵活的 API。

AuthKit's designed is stunning out of the box and you can also fully customize it to fit your app's brand.

AuthKit 的设计令人惊叹，开箱即用，您还可以完全自定义它以适合您的应用程序品牌。

It's an effortless experience from your first user all the way to your largest enterprise customer.

从您的第一个用户一直到您最大的企业客户，这都是一种轻松的体验。

Best of all, AuthKit is free for any developer up to 1 million users.

最重要的是，AuthKit 对任何拥有 100 万用户的开发人员都是免费的。

Check it out at workos.com/lenny to learn more.

请访问 workos.com/lenny 以了解更多信息。

This episode is brought to you by Orb.

本集由 Orb 为您带来。

As a business, you care about revenue, but as a product team, the last thing you want to do is delay a product launch or a pricing change because your team has to rebuild billing from scratch.

作为企业，您关心收入，但作为产品团队，您最不想做的就是推迟产品发布或定价更改，因为您的团队必须从头开始重建计费。

Orb is a flexible usage based billing engine that lets you evolve your pricing with ease.

Orb 是一种灵活的基于使用情况的计费引擎，可让您轻松调整定价。

The fastest growing product teams at companies like Vercel and Replit trust Orb to power their pricing changes and launches.

Vercel 和 Replit 等公司发展最快的产品团队信任 Orb 来推动他们的定价变化和发布。

Use Orb to ship product faster, stop worrying about billing, and evolve pricing with ease and control.

使用 Orb 更快地交付产品，不再担心计费，并轻松控制地制定定价。

Check it out at withorb.com/lenny.

请访问 withorb.com/lenny 进行查看。

And skip the line for demo or Sandbox by using promo code Lenny, that's withorb.com/lenny.

并使用促销代码 Lenny（即 withorb.com/lenny）跳过演示或沙箱的排队。

Kunal, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Kunal，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny, thank you so much for having me, and a huge fan of everything that you do.

莱尼，非常感谢你邀请我，也非常感谢你所做的一切。

And like I said before, India is a huge beneficiary of what you do.

正如我之前所说，印度是你们所做的事情的巨大受益者。

We are all people who have learned the art of product by just figuring it out, and watching some content here and there and reading some stuff.

我们都是通过弄清楚产品的艺术、到处观看一些内容并阅读一些东西来学习产品艺术的人。

So kudos to everything that you do.

所以对你所做的一切表示敬意。

And like I said earlier, you do a fabulous job of taking the information asymmetry of the art of product and making it accessible to many of us across the world.

正如我之前所说，你们在解决产品艺术的信息不对称问题并使世界各地的许多人都能接触到它方面做得非常出色。

Wow, I really appreciate that.

哇，我真的很感激。

This is already feeling great to me.

这对我来说已经感觉很棒了。

I have a huge..

我有一个巨大的..

so it turns out this podcast has a huge audience in India, as do you.

事实证明，这个播客在印度拥有大量观众，你也是如此。

And so I feel like this conversation is going to be really special and really meaningful to a lot of people.

所以我觉得这次对话对很多人来说非常特别并且非常有意义。

I wanted to start with something very tactical.

我想从一些非常战术性的事情开始。

There's a product framework that you came up with that I absolutely love, and I've shared it with at least 30 founders over the last couple years.

我非常喜欢你提出的一个产品框架，在过去几年里我已经与至少 30 位创始人分享了它。

And this is actually how I discovered you initially; I heard about this thing, and I'm like, who's this guy Kunal Shah?

这实际上就是我最初发现你的方式；我听说过这件事，我想，库纳尔·沙阿这个人​​是谁？

Could you explain this framework briefly and then just how you've used it or how you recommend people apply it?

您能否简要解释一下这个框架，然后介绍一下您如何使用它或者您如何建议人们应用它？

Oh, and by the way, it's called Delta 4.

哦，顺便说一下，它的名字叫 Delta 4。

I don't know if I even said the name.

我不知道我是否说出了名字。

Yeah, it's called the Delta 4 framework, but I think it's actually quite simple.

是的，它被称为 Delta 4 框架，但我认为它实际上非常简单。

If you think about it, a lot of people say that your product has to be 10x better and it's not very measurable.

如果你想一想，很多人都会说你的产品必须好 10 倍，但它不太可衡量。

You don't know if you are 10x better or not unless you're delusional.

你不知道自己是否比自己好十倍，除非你有妄想症。

And the trigger for me was actually, I'm the unusual tech founder in India.

对我来说，触发因素实际上是，我是印度不寻常的科技创始人。

I'm the only humanities/philosophy major founder in India who's got into tech.

我是印度唯一涉足科技领域的人文/哲学专业创始人。

And I often wondered if most people who were my peers, or people who were ahead of me, were significantly smarter academically or otherwise.

我常常想知道，大多数与我同龄的人，或者领先于我的人，是否在学业或其他方面都比我聪明得多。

And why did I become successful with my first startup, Freecharge, which I exited in 2015 for nearly $450 million?

为什么我的第一家初创公司 Freecharge 能取得成功？我于 2015 年以近 4.5 亿美元的价格退出了该公司？

And I was like, “What would make this happen?”

我当时想，“什么会让这一切发生？”

Because I would not qualify into this super league of really top IIT rankers that exist in India.

因为我没有资格进入印度这个由真正顶尖的 IIT 排名者组成的超级联赛。

And that got me onto this philosophical quest to find out what makes things successful.

这让我开始了哲学探索，寻找成功的秘诀。

So the simple framework is, an example I give often is that, imagine the old way of taking a cab ride and an Uber.

所以简单的框架是，我经常举的一个例子是，想象一下乘坐出租车和优步的旧方式。

And if I asked you to give me the score of efficiency on Uber and let's say getting the old cab, what would you say, Lenny?

如果我让你给我打 Uber 的效率分数，假设乘坐旧出租车，你会怎么说，莱尼？

Yeah, give a cab three and then Uber like a nine.

是的，给出租车三分，然后用优步给九分。

So every time you see that the product efficiency delta is greater than or equal to four, three things happen.

因此，每当您看到产品效率增量大于或等于 4 时，就会发生三件事。

Second is that you have a very high tolerance for it to fail.

其次，你对失败有很高的容忍度。

If Uber fails a little bit, will you say, “Oh my God, I'm going to really stop using it?”

如果 Uber 稍微失败了，你会说，“天哪，我真的要停止使用它了吗？”

And the third thing is what I call the UBP, ‘Unique Brag-worthy Proposition.’

第三件事就是我所说的 UBP，“独特的值得吹嘘的命题”。

Every time humans unlock a Delta 4 product or service, they cannot stop talking or sharing about it.

每当人们解锁 Delta 4 产品或服务时，他们就无法停止谈论或分享它。

And therefore all Delta 4 products will naturally have lower CAC or sometimes zero CAC because people, humans..

因此，所有 Delta 4 产品自然会具有较低的 CAC，有时甚至为零 CAC，因为人，人类……

and think about it, Lenny, how you discovered Google, definitely not through an ad, definitely not through some performance marketing here and there.

想想看，莱尼，你是如何发现谷歌的，绝对不是通过广告，绝对不是通过到处的绩效营销。

Somebody showed you the demo and you were like, “Oh my God, this is crazy.”

有人向你展示了演示，你会想，“天哪，这太疯狂了。”

And that's what I'm seeing right now, what's happening with everything on OpenAI and everything that is happening around LLM feels like magic and it's Delta 4 because the efficiency of doing things before and after is now showing that.

这就是我现在所看到的，OpenAI 上发生的一切以及 LLM 周围发生的一切感觉就像魔法，它是 Delta 4，因为之前和之后做事的效率现在证明了这一点。

But failure is the real problem.

但失败才是真正的问题。

And making everything tech does not make things more efficient.

让一切都变得科技化并不会让事情变得更有效率。

Buying a suit for yourself online versus offline, all tech, cool stuff, all the features built in.

在线为自己购买一套西装，而不是线下购买，所有技术，很酷的东西，所有内置功能。

What would you say the efficiency of buying a suit online is versus, let's say, buying a suit offline?

您认为在线购买西装与线下购买西装的效率如何？

I've actually done that and it was a terrible fit.

我实际上已经这样做了，而且非常合适。

It did not fit at all.

它根本不适合。

And so it's efficient, but the end result was not, it's probably often not great.

所以它是有效的，但最终的结果却不是，它可能常常不是很好。

Overall efficiency score, what would you give?

总体效率得分，您会打多少分？

I'd probably give it five and five.

我可能会给它五五。

Offline is actually probably a better experience.

离线实际上可能是更好的体验。

That's crazy because you've broken the principle, this is a tech product, but the efficiency is better offline.

这太疯狂了，因为你打破了原则，这是一个科技产品，但离线效率更好。

And therefore when the delta is less than four, what you will discover is that it is reversible.

因此，当 delta 小于 4 时，你会发现它是可逆的。

You will not see people bragging about it and you have zero tolerance for it.

你不会看到人们吹嘘它，你对此零容忍。

So you're never going to buy a suit online.

所以你永远不会在网上购买西装。

I can tell you that right now.

我现在就可以告诉你。

So I think it's a simple framework.

所以我认为这是一个简单的框架。

I believe that if many companies applied..

我相信如果很多企业申请..

I know now many VCs in the US use this as part of the training program for analysts.

我知道现在美国很多风险投资家都将其作为分析师培训计划的一部分。

omebody in Sequoia mentioned this to me that they have this as part of the thing, but in India we are not still applying many of these things.

红杉资本的有人向我提到这一点，他们把它作为事情的一部分，但在印度，我们还没有应用其中的许多东西。

I think it's a simple framework to at least know.

我认为这是一个至少需要了解的简单框架。

You can apply this to features, you can apply this to products, you can apply that to business.

您可以将其应用于功能，您可以将其应用于产品，您可以将其应用于业务。

And oftentimes this is a longer concept.

通常这是一个较长的概念。

We can talk about it in many ways because it's derived out of some study around entropy and evolutionary biology, which is the root of how I discovered and thought about Delta 4, that “When does a species get disrupted ” or “what is entropy and why does low entropy require growth of high entropy?”

我们可以通过多种方式谈论它，因为它源于一些围绕熵和进化生物学的研究，这是我发现和思考 Delta 4 的根源，即“物种何时会被破坏”或“什么是熵以及为什么低熵需要高熵的增长？”

It's a day long podcast on its own.

它本身就是一个为期一天的播客。

We'll save that for a future follow-up, just diving in on the psychology of Delta 4.

我们将把它留到以后的后续文章中，只是深入探讨 Delta 4 的心理。

Just to kind of summarize this, because I think it's such a powerful framework and I find it useful to convince founders why their product isn't taking off.

只是总结一下，因为我认为这是一个非常强大的框架，而且我发现它有助于说服创始人为什么他们的产品没有起飞。

They may feel like this is better than.

他们可能觉得这比这更好。

The classic example, is a better Excel.

经典的例子，就是更好的Excel。

Look, this is so much better than Excel.

瞧，这比 Excel 好多了。

You don't have to learn all these formulas.

您不必学习所有这些公式。

But the trick here that I love is just what people rate the existing solution 1to 10, what would they rate your solution 1 to 10?

但我喜欢的技巧是人们对现有解决方案的评分为 1 到 10，那么他们会对您的解决方案评分为 1 到 10 吗？

It has to be four points higher, otherwise no one's going to pay attention.

必须高出四分，不然没人会注意。

And I think it's pretty simple.

我认为这非常简单。

People are busy, they have enough things to do, they have enough products and apps, they're not going to take the time to really dig into something if it's not that much better.

人们很忙，他们有足够的事情要做，他们有足够的产品和应用程序，如果事情没有那么好，他们就不会花时间去真正深入研究。

I'm going to go in a totally different direction.

我将走向一个完全不同的方向。

I want to talk about Indian CEOs in the US.

我想谈谈在美国的印度首席执行官。

So today the CEOs of Microsoft, Alphabet, Adobe, which is a $250 billion company it turns out, IBM, which is a $170 billion company, Palo Alto Networks, which is a $100 billion company, even Starbucks, also a $100 billion company, I was looking that up.

所以今天，微软、Alphabet、Adobe（一家价值 2500 亿美元的公司）、IBM（一家价值 1700 亿美元的公司）、Palo Alto Networks（一家价值 1000 亿美元的公司）的首席执行官，甚至星巴克（也是一家价值 1000 亿美元的公司）的首席执行官，我都在查。

And then also Twitter before Elon took over Twitter.

在埃隆接管 Twitter 之前，还有 Twitter。

The CEOs of these companies were all born in India and immigrated to the US.

这些公司的首席执行官都出生在印度并移民到美国。

And I might be wrong, but I think this is the largest ethnic group of CEOs of tech companies other than just white dudes in the US.

我可能是错的，但我认为这是除美国白人之外科技公司首席执行官中最大的族群。

So I'm curious why you think Indian immigrants are so successful in business and in tech in the US, especially in these very high positions.

所以我很好奇为什么你认为印度移民在美国的商业和科技领域如此成功，尤其是在这些非常高的职位上。

And I'm most curious, just what can we learn from that?

我很好奇，我们能从中学到什么？

What can we learn from their success?

我们可以从他们的成功中学到什么？

I often wonder about it and I have had the good fortune to meet a fair bunch of these individuals, and had a chance to really explore with them what really went on.

我经常想知道这个问题，我有幸遇到了很多这样的人，并有机会与他们一起真正探索到底发生了什么。

So there are a few things that pop out.

所以有一些事情会突然出现。

And again, these are all conjectures, which I can't prove in any way, but it's a thought experiment to talk about these things.

再说一次，这些都是猜想，我无法以任何方式证明，但谈论这些事情是一个思想实验。

First is in general, immigrants that get out of the country usually have a chip on their shoulder in a very different way.

首先，一般来说，离开这个国家的移民通常会以一种非常不同的方式感到不满。

And the struggle that they have to go through to just get out and be successful, and that hunger that got them there.

他们必须经历斗争才能走出困境并取得成功，以及让他们到达那里的渴望。

There was no privilege.

没有特权。

They came from very, very humble backgrounds and literally no money to start with.

他们出身非常非常卑微，根本没有钱。

So I think that this force is real.

所以我认为这种力量是真实存在的。

You can say that for many immigrants in general as well.

对于许多一般移民来说也是如此。

But appreciation for math in general, or logic which came to society in a big way, kind of gave.

但对数学的欣赏，或者对社会中大量出现的逻辑的欣赏，有点让步了。

Let's say for example, lots of engineering graduates come from only a few countries because society was bent towards early exposure to mathematics.

举例来说，许多工程毕业生仅来自少数几个国家，因为社会倾向于尽早接触数学。

And I think that kind of helps create status that will get appreciated.

我认为这有助于创造受到赞赏的地位。

For example, being an engineer, a doctor...

例如，当一名工程师、一名医生……

As a philosophy major, I was a write-off for society.

作为一名哲学专业的学生，我对社会来说是一个被淘汰的人。

So the reason I'm the rare commodity over here, because you are not considered to be very bright unless you break into these very hard exams and do very, very hard things.

所以我之所以成为这里的稀有商品，是因为除非你闯入这些非常困难的考试并做非常非常困难的事情，否则你不会被认为是非常聪明的。

So the filtering criteria on its own is big.

所以过滤标准本身就很大。

But there's another interesting framework altogether, which I have actually learned from this gentleman, Devdutt Patnaik.

但还有另一个有趣的框架，我实际上是从这位绅士 Devdutt Patnaik 那里学到的。

He applies Indian mythology and management principles together.

他将印度神话和管理原理结合在一起。

And it's an interesting thing.

这是一件有趣的事情。

There are three major Indian Gods.

印度有三大神。

One is Brahma, the God of creation, Shiva the God of destruction.

其一是创造之神梵天，毁灭之神湿婆。

I'm generalizing here, but that's the classification.

我这里是概括性的，但这就是分类。

And the third is Vishnu, the God of sustenance.

第三个是毗湿奴，维生之神。

And their avatars-the word “avatar” comes from Vishnu who keeps changing avatars.

而他们的化身——“化身”这个词来自于不断变换化身的毗湿奴。

So we have Rama, Krishna, all these Gods are avatars of his.

所以我们有罗摩、克里希纳，所有这些神都是他的化身。

So what you notice is that if you take a two by two of people who are high on values and low on values, are high on obedience and low on obedience, you make an interesting two by two.

所以你会注意到，如果你把价值观高和价值观低、服从性高和服从低的人分成两两，你就会组成一个有趣的两两。

Now, Lord Krishna, who is one of the very popular avatars, which suits the entrepreneurial category, is high on values but very low on obedience.

现在，克里希纳勋爵是非常受欢迎的化身之一，适合创业类别，价值观很高，但服从性很低。

He was known to be the naughty God and he could actually create lots of things.

他被认为是顽皮的上帝，他实际上可以创造很多东西。

And there is Rama, who is known to be the one who follows principles and is obedient.

还有罗摩，众所周知，他是一位遵循原则且服从的人。

So they will follow ‘dharma’ and scale on that.

所以他们会遵循“佛法”并以此为基础。

And then there are these notorious characters, there is Ravana who is low on values, low on obedience, and there is Duryodhana which he says that he is high on obedience but low on values.

还有这些臭名昭著的人物，有拉瓦那（Ravana），他的价值观低，服从性低，还有杜尤丹（Duryodhana），他说他服从性高，但价值观低。

So these are the people that you don't want to be.

所以这些人是你不想成为的人。

And what you notice is that a lot of CEOs have done well because they follow the ‘dharma’ of the founders quite well.

你会注意到，很多首席执行官做得很好，因为他们很好地遵循了创始人的“佛法”。

They have not diluted the dharma of the founders who have started these companies, and managed to sustain that.

他们没有淡化创办这些公司的创始人的佛法，并设法维持了这种佛法。

And a lot of CEOs have this need to say, "Oh, I'm going to change the company forever and it'll be my identity and I will change the logo and I'll change the name and I will do all sorts of things."

许多首席执行官都需要说：“哦，我要永远改变公司，这将是我的身份，我将更改徽标，我将更改名称，我将做各种各样的事情。”

But maintaining ‘dharma’, where I will say that “These principles were given to me and I'm going to sustain this and make it even bigger," comes from the humility of saying that there is something that was built with some pure form factor, and I think therefore that character stays on.

但是维护“佛法”，我会说“这些原则是给我的，我将维持它并使其变得更大”，来自于谦虚地说，有一些东西是用某种纯粹的形式因素构建的，因此我认为这种性格会持续下去。

And therefore we have the characters of Brahma and Shiva, the founder and destroyer.

因此，我们就有了梵天和湿婆的角色，即创造者和毁灭者。

But sustenance is the harder one.

但维持生计是更困难的事情。

And therefore our avatars keep happening over time and different hurdles come and then different levels come.

因此，随着时间的推移，我们的化身不断发生，不同的障碍出现，然后不同的水平出现。

But when you think about the archetype of, at least the Indian CEOs, I've seen that they are fabulous at moving between Krishna and Rama all the time.

但当你想到印度首席执行官的原型时，我发现他们总是在克里希纳和罗摩之间转换得非常出色。

They can play this consistently, and therefore they keep evolving and keep making these companies bigger and bigger.

他们可以始终如一地发挥这一作用，因此他们不断发展并使这些公司变得越来越大。

And I think we'll see a lot more of this in years to come, because now they have the role models of these individuals who have done well.

我认为在未来几年我们会看到更多这样的事情，因为现在他们有了这些表现出色的人的榜样。

But the key principle is that if you ask the founders, they will love these CEOs if they're around because they maintain the dharma.

但关键原则是，如果你问创始人，他们会喜欢这些首席执行官，如果他们在的话，因为他们维护佛法。

For example, what Tim is doing is maintaining the dharma of Steve Jobs because if he had tried to change the dharma of Steve Jobs and the values of the company, it's very hard to imagine it sustaining itself forever.

例如，蒂姆正在做的是维护史蒂夫·乔布斯的佛法，因为如果他试图改变史蒂夫·乔布斯的佛法和公司的价值观，很难想象它会永远维持下去。

What I love about this is this combination of using a two by two and Indian mythology.

我喜欢这个的原因是这种二乘二和印度神话的结合。

It is like the microcosm of you, which is philosophy and tech.

它就像你的缩影，是哲学和技术。

And so I love that and it makes a lot of sense that that's where your mind goes.

所以我喜欢这一点，这很有意义，这就是你的思想所在。

Something else this makes me think about is, I read this book a long time ago, Jim Collins ‘Good to Great’ or one of his early books about leadership, and he talks about level five leadership I think.

这让我想到的另一件事是，我很久以前读过这本书，吉姆·柯林斯的《从优秀到卓越》或他关于领导力的早期书籍之一，我认为他谈到了第五级领导力。

Here level five leaders are ones where it's not about them, it's about the business and they can disappear in the future and things will work great.

在这里，五级领导者的重点不是他们自己，而是业务，他们可以在未来消失，但事情会进展顺利。

And I feel it is very hard if you believe that your identity needs to have its own position and legacy, and therefore a lot of time chasing status causes disruption because you will say that “Oh, this doesn't have my signature in it.”

我觉得如果你相信你的身份需要有自己的地位和遗产，那是非常困难的，因此很多时间追逐地位会造成混乱，因为你会说“哦，这里面没有我的签名。”

And therefore accepting the religion and trying to be the Pope of it or the father of it is better than trying to say, "Oh, I need to have my variant of religion."

因此，接受这个宗教并试图成为它的教皇或它的父亲，比试图说“哦，我需要有我的宗教变体”要好。

And that's where the creative destruction starts happening.

这就是创造性破坏开始发生的地方。

So you said that there's this good balance between Krishna and Rama that happens.

所以你说克里希纳和罗摩之间存在着这种良好的平衡。

Can you just summarize where they are in that two by two?

你能两两总结一下它们在哪里吗？

Rama is high on values and high on obedience, and Krishna is high on values and low on obedience, but they both are high on values, which means they'll follow dharma, and they'll change sides.

罗摩的价值观很高，服从性很高，而克里希纳的价值观很高，服从性很低，但他们的价值观都很高，这意味着他们会遵循佛法，并且会改变立场。

For example, let's say Satya during the OpenAI crisis played Krishna and got things out, but he'll switch back to being Rama and continue to keep scaling it up.

例如，假设 Satya 在 OpenAI 危机期间扮演 Krishna 并解决了问题，但他会变回 Rama 并继续扩大规模。

And just to close the loop on here, is your sense that they're actually thinking about this and they're religious, or is this just in the ether of growing up in India and this is just part of the culture?

结束这个循环，你是否感觉到他们实际上在思考这个问题并且他们有宗教信仰，或者这只是在印度长大的过程中，这只是文化的一部分？

I don't think they consciously think about it, but I think if they ever heard this, they would agree with it, because that's what they grew up with and value systems are much more long-term.

我不认为他们有意识地思考这一点，但我认为如果他们曾经听到过这一点，他们会同意这一点，因为这就是他们成长的过程，价值体系更加长期。

For example, I believe all bad behavior in humans comes from being short-term, and being long-term is a big choice to make.

例如，我相信人类所有的不良行为都源于短期，而长期是一个重大的选择。

And a lot of times a lot of people argue that we have a 95% arranged marriages and less than 1% divorce rate, comes from this whole long-term thinking that people are married through values versus attraction or lust and all of that stuff.

很多时候，很多人认为我们有 95% 的包办婚姻，而离婚率不到 1%，这源于人们通过价值观而不是吸引力或欲望以及所有这些东西而结婚的长期思维。

They’re more long-term oriented and about building a family, building values.

他们更注重长远发展，注重建立家庭、建立价值观。

Or low divorce rate is about “we'll fix along the way” versus trying to say “I need to evolve” and “I need to move forward.”

或者低离婚率意味着“我们会一路解决”，而不是试图说“我需要进化”和“我需要前进”。

So I think being long-term about that mindset, and that's why some cultures last for thousands of years, because of this need for everybody to be more long-term versus short.

所以我认为要长期保持这种心态，这就是为什么有些文化能够延续数千年的原因，因为每个人都需要更加长期而不是短期。

The US could use a lot of that these days.

如今美国可以利用很多这样的东西。

You mentioned this interesting fact about how in India, most startups fail.

您提到了一个有趣的事实，即在印度，大多数初创公司都失败了。

You said, I think, the classic stat is 90%, and that the risk is a lot higher to start a company and then fail.

你说，我认为，经典的统计数据是 90%，创办一家公司然后失败的风险要高得多。

Can you just talk about what impact that has?

您能简单谈谈这有什么影响吗？

How do people try to avoid that?

人们如何避免这种情况？

Because that'd be amazing if you can reduce the risk of starting a company or is it just that it happens and people get super in debt?

因为如果你能降低创办公司的风险，那就太棒了，或者只是这种情况发生了，人们就会负债累累？

I think long-term societies are naturally more risk-averse.

我认为长期社会自然更厌恶风险。

And not all great CEOs can become great founders for the same reason.

出于同样的原因，并非所有伟大的首席执行官都能成为伟大的创始人。

In fact, I would say that it actually makes it very hard to be a founder if you've been a great CEO because you've turned into this sustainer versus destroyer or creator.

事实上，我想说的是，如果你曾经是一位出色的首席执行官，那么成为一名创始人实际上会变得非常困难，因为你已经变成了这种支持者而不是破坏者或创造者。

The nuance I'm talking about is when you are thinking about risk appetite, India is changing, but now for the first time we are seeing founders being respected and talked about and these unicorns being celebrated and our Prime Minister talks about startups quite openly.

我所说的细微差别是，当你考虑风险偏好时，印度正在发生变化，但现在我们第一次看到创始人受到尊重和谈论，这些独角兽受到庆祝，我们的总理相当公开地谈论初创企业。

We have a National Startup Day and so on and so forth.

我们有全国创业日等等。

So I think there is a thing that has changed this, but let's understand the core human behavior.

所以我认为有件事改变了这一点，但让我们了解人类的核心行为。

India still has a large number of arranged marriages.

印度仍然存在大量的包办婚姻。

And if you are a founder and a failed founder, your chances of getting a person to marry is still hard to achieve.

如果你是一位创始人，而且是一位失败的创始人，那么你让一个人结婚的机会仍然很难实现。

So if this is all true, then the appetite to take risk will be curtailed.

因此，如果这一切都是真的，那么冒险的胃口就会受到抑制。

Somebody gave me an interesting example that there's a very large, let's say CPG company in India, and let's say you do a zero to one over there and the CEO changes in four or five years and your zero to one fails, but you were the best person, that's why you were given the zero to one.

有人给我举了一个有趣的例子，假设印度有一家非常大的快速消费品公司，假设你在那里进行了零到一，首席执行官在四五年内更换了，你的零到一失败了，但你是最好的人，这就是为什么你得到了零到一。

The next CEO is like, “So what have you done in the last five years?”

下一任首席执行官会问：“那么你在过去五年里做了什么？”

I just tried to launch it but failed."

我只是尝试启动它，但失败了。”

And you are neither given a promotion in the company, nor a new company will say, "Oh my God, I'm going to hire this talent."

而且你既不会在公司得到晋升，新公司也不会说：“天哪，我要雇用这个人才。”

So the guy who stayed on this stable brand within the CPG company kept growing, but that has natural tailwinds.

因此，在 CPG 公司内保留这个稳定品牌的人不断成长，但这有自然的顺风。

All he has to do is nothing in that brand.

他所要做的就是在那个品牌中什么都不做。

And then suddenly what you see is that he or she's managed to do well and this guy has done a zero to one has not done well.

然后你突然看到他或她做得很好，而这个人从零到一却做得不好。

So we do not celebrate risk-takers as a country yet.

因此，作为一个国家，我们还没有庆祝冒险家。

And I think we'll change that.

我想我们会改变这一点。

I think it's changing already, but we have a long way to go.

我认为情况已经在改变，但我们还有很长的路要走。

One of the beautiful things I often talk about is that when I was in Portugal once and I saw, I don't know if you've ever been and seen this, but in the church normallyonly the Royalty are allowed to be buried or cremated.

我经常谈论的一件美好的事情是，当我有一次在葡萄牙时，我看到，我不知道你是否曾经去过并看到过这一点，但在教堂里，通常只有皇室成员才被允许埋葬或火葬。

There is only one more category that is allowed- the explorers.

只允许再添加一类——探险家。

Vasco da Gama, all of these guys who explored the world and took risks and took the country forward, were given the same position as the royalty.

瓦斯科·达·伽马，所有这些探索世界、冒险并带领国家前进的人，都被赋予了与皇室相同的地位。

So when we give the highest status to risk-takers, the country appreciates it because ultimately we're all looking for markers of social validation.

因此，当我们给予冒险者最高的地位时，国家会赞赏它，因为最终我们都在寻找社会认可的标志。

I want to keep talking about India and how it's different and especially what may surprise people about the market, both building there and then how to build products that are successful in India.

我想继续谈论印度，以及它的不同之处，特别是可能让人们对这个市场感到惊讶的地方，包括在那里建造产品，以及如何建造在印度取得成功的产品。

I saw in a different interview, you talk about how there's this big difference between DAUs and ARPUs.

我在另一次采访中看到，您谈到 DAU 和 ARPU 之间存在巨大差异。

In India it's really easy to get DAUs, basically get lots of users, it's really hard to make revenue per user, and that changes the way you build products broadly.

在印度，获得 DAU 非常容易，基本上获得大量用户，但要为每个用户赚取收入确实很困难，这会改变您广泛构建产品的方式。

Could you just talk about why this is the case?

您能否简单谈谈为什么会出现这种情况？

Why is it so much easier to get DAUs versus ARPUs?

为什么获得 DAU 比 ARPU 更容易？

I think ARPU is a function of per capita income of a country.

我认为ARPU是一个国家人均收入的函数。

You cannot make $100 per user from a country for a product when their income is let's say $2,500 per year as an average for the whole country.

当一个国家/地区的平均收入为 2,500 美元/年时，您不可能从某个国家/地区的每个用户赚取 100 美元的产品。

So what happens is many global companies love to come to India because we have the cheapest data, and very high smartphone penetration.

因此，许多跨国公司都喜欢来到印度，因为我们拥有最便宜的数据流量，而且智能手机普及率非常高。

So if you look at a lot of global giants, they'll have 500 million users from India, sometimes a billion users coming from Asia and they don't have huge ARPUs, but they help you show the user growth which helps you in your public market and therefore improves your valuations.

因此，如果你观察许多全球巨头，他们将拥有来自印度的 5 亿用户，有时来自亚洲的 10 亿用户，他们没有巨大的 ARPU，但它们可以帮助你展示用户增长情况，从而帮助你进入公开市场，从而提高你的估值。

For example, my guess is that, I don't know if this data is public or not to talk about, my guess is that Meta would not have more than $3 or $4 per user per year monetization in India.

例如，我的猜测是，我不知道这个数据是否公开，是否不值得谈论，我的猜测是 Meta 在印度每个用户每年的货币化不会超过 3 或 4 美元。

But if you look at the user growth in India, it is huge.

但如果你看看印度的用户增长，你会发现这是巨大的。

So a lot of times for global companies, India becomes a great MAU farm but very low on ARPU.

因此，对于跨国公司来说，很多时候，印度成为了一个很棒的 MAU 农场，但 ARPU 却很低。

Therefore a lot of Indian founders who tried to copy the Western market saying, “I'm going to have a few hundred million users” make a terrible mistake because they will need to then go abroad to find their ARPUs to balance the act.

因此，许多试图复制西方市场的印度创始人说，“我将拥有几亿用户”，他们犯了一个可怕的错误，因为他们需要出国寻找 ARPU 来平衡这一行为。

You talk about how Netflix is a good example of that, where they launched in India, they got lots of users, but just couldn't make a lot of money.

你谈到 Netflix 就是一个很好的例子，他们在印度推出后，获得了大量用户，但就是赚不到很多钱。

Because forusers to find relevant content, pay for content, when we have tons of free data, tons of free content all over the place, like short videos that are competing with time, so much going on over here, people actually paying for that by design is going to be less.

因为为了让用户找到相关内容，为内容付费，当我们有大量的免费数据、大量的免费内容遍布各处时，比如与时间竞争的短视频，这里发生了这么多事情，人们实际上为这些内容付费的设计将会减少。

And I'm not saying that it'll not change in 10, 20 years, but the expectation that many global companies come over here saying that, “I'm going to have these tens of millions of users who start paying me as soon as I come”, for Spotify, for Netflix, or Amazon Prime for that matter has not panned out.

我并不是说这种情况在 10 年、20 年内都不会改变，但许多跨国公司来到这里说，“我一来就会有数千万用户开始向我付费”，对于 Spotify、Netflix 或 Amazon Prime 来说，这种期望并没有实现。

So one of my takeaways here is just when you look at a startup as an investor especially, and you see “We've got 100 million users,” don't treat that the same as say 100 million users in the US or other markets.

因此，我的要点之一是，当您特别以投资者的身份看待一家初创公司时，您会看到“我们拥有 1 亿用户”，不要将其视为与美国或其他市场的 1 亿用户相同。

One more thing is the value of time as a concept.

还有一件事是时间作为一个概念的价值。

So one of the things you'll notice, Lenny, is that no Indian has ever been paid an hourly salary in their entire life.

所以，莱尼，你会注意到的一件事是，没有一个印度人一生中拿过小时工资。

But let me ask you a question.

但让我问你一个问题。

What was your first ever job and how were you paid?

您的第一份工作是什么？您的薪水如何？

My first ever job, I was tutoring women about computers and passing Microsoft certification tests.

我的第一份工作是辅导女性计算机知识并通过微软认证测试。

And I was paid, I'm pretty sure it was hourly.

我得到了报酬，我很确定是按小时计算的。

Now most likely you'll remember what the hour rate income was.

现在您很可能会记得小时费率收入是多少。

And even though you've started making a lot more, you still have the concept of what the value of your one hour is.

即使你已经开始赚更多的钱，你仍然知道你一小时的价值是多少。

But if you ask most Indians, and if you ever come to India and do this exercise when you meet them, ask them “What's your income per day or income per hour?”

但如果你问大多数印度人，如果你来过印度并在遇到他们时做这个练习，问他们“你每天或每小时的收入是多少？”

Nobody will be able to answer, no matter what their job is.

无论他们的工作是什么，没有人能够回答。

They could be staff, at the restaurant, to somebody who's doing really basic work, to anybody in any fancy job, because we've never ever been paid an hourly salary.

他们可以是餐厅的员工，也可以是做基础工作的人，也可以是从事任何高级工作的任何人，因为我们从来没有拿过小时工资。

So when you're not paid an hourly salary, the concept of time is not the same.

所以当你没有拿时薪的时候，时间的概念就不一样了。

And when the concept of time is not the same, paying for time is hard to do.

而当时间观念不一样时，按时间付费就很难做到。

And therefore you'll see a lot of Indians who make, let's say, I don't know, maybe $100 an hour, but still spend an hour to spend $10 on a flight ticket because that's what it is.

因此，你会看到很多印度人，比如说，我不知道，每小时可能赚 100 美元，但仍然花一个小时花 10 美元买机票，因为事实就是这样。

And if you discuss that with many of the Indians in the West also you'll realize that this is a common joke that they will still fight for the $10 because the value of time is something that is harder to get used to unless from your childhood the unit of time was moved smaller and smaller.

如果你和西方的许多印度人讨论这个问题，你也会意识到这是一个常见的笑话，他们仍然会为 10 美元而奋斗，因为时间的价值是很难习惯的，除非从你的童年开始，时间单位变得越来越小。

And you're saying that comes from just the fact that people never get paid hourly?

你是说这只是因为人们从来没有按小时领取工资？

It's always a salary, and so people don't write down-

它总是薪水，所以人们不会写下来-

Many Indian languages do not have a word for “efficiency.”

许多印度语言中没有“效率”这个词。

And that's true for many Asian languages, the word for “efficiency” does not exist.

对于许多亚洲语言来说都是如此，“效率”这个词并不存在。

So then how do you value it if it's not in the vocabulary?

那么如果它不在词汇表中，你如何评价它呢？

There's something else along these lines of DAUs and ARPUs and efficiency that you talked about that I love, which is this idea that focus is a curse in Asian markets, that in the US there's often this advice.

您谈到的 DAU、ARPU 和效率方面还有一些我喜欢的内容，即“专注在亚洲市场是一种诅咒”这一观点，在美国经常有这样的建议。

“Focus, build one thing that's amazing that everyone loves, try to make that work, scale that, and then, only then, build a new product or build something, build a new big feature.”

“专注，打造一件人人都喜欢的令人惊叹的东西，尝试让它发挥作用，扩大规模，然后，只有这样，才能打造一个新产品或打造一些东西，打造一个新的大功能。”

And your advice is in India and Asian markets in general, it's the opposite.

你的建议是，在印度和整个亚洲市场，情况恰恰相反。

And I think it's because you make so little per user.

我认为这是因为每个用户赚的钱太少了。

I think one is you make very little per user, so you have to do many things.

我认为其中之一是你为每个用户赚的钱很少，所以你必须做很多事情。

But also all low trust markets, and let me define low trust markets as where consumers are a lot more wary of trying new things because there are no institutions that protect you against bad behavior done by a company.

但也包括所有低信任市场，让我将低信任市场定义为消费者对尝试新事物更加谨慎的市场，因为没有机构可以保护您免受公司不良行为的影响。

So for example, if I ever had a fall in a coffee shop in the US, I can think about suing them and making money off it.

举例来说，如果我在美国的一家咖啡店摔倒了，我可以考虑起诉他们并从中赚钱。

In India, you're only worried about “I'm going to pay for my thing.”

在印度，你只担心“我要为我的东西付钱”。

You don't even think about suing the coffee shop or even hoping that you'll get any money for that.

你甚至不会考虑起诉咖啡店，甚至不会希望能因此得到任何钱。

So what happens is in a low trust country, and all developing nations are low trust by design, because the institutions are not strong enough to really, really take care of many things.

所以发生的情况是在一个低信任度的国家，所有发展中国家都是低信任度的，因为这些机构不够强大，无法真正、真正地处理很多事情。

What happens is there is concentration of trust.

所发生的情况是信任的集中。

So you will see that super apps, superstars, super companies all exist in low trust markets because the lack of trust creates concentration of trust, and therefore you will see one app can do 400 things.

所以你会看到超级应用程序、超级明星、超级公司都存在于低信任市场中，因为缺乏信任导致信任集中，因此你会看到一个应用程序可以做 400 件事。

For example, we have a company like Tata that can do salt to car to jewelry to anything and people will buy it because it's a Tata brand, because it comes from a low trust society trusting the brand and not being, “Oh, I'm going to prefer this new brand.”

例如，我们有一家像塔塔这样的公司，可以生产盐、汽车、珠宝等任何东西，人们会购买它，因为它是塔塔品牌，因为它来自信任该品牌的低信任度社会，而不是“哦，我会更喜欢这个新品牌”。

The joy of trying new things is not so high in low trust nations.

在信任度较低的国家，尝试新事物的乐趣并不那么高。

So essentially the brand is even more, exponentially more important in Indian markets.

因此，从本质上讲，该品牌在印度市场上的重要性更加显着。

It's funny, but the oldest brand in the world is a brand called Chyavanprash.

有趣的是，世界上最古老的品牌是一个叫做 Chyavanprash 的品牌。

It's a guy named Chavan who built a “prash” which is a sort of paste that you can have for good health, and it was built in India many, many, many, many centuries ago.

一个名叫 Chavan 的人制作了一种“prash”，这是一种可以保持身体健康的糊状物，它是许多、许多、许多、许多世纪前在印度建造的。

And lots of Indian businesses still have the name of the person behind it.

许多印度企业仍然保留着其背后人物的名字。

JP Morgan, all these guys are not some fancy name.

摩根大通，所有这些人的名字都不是什么花哨的名字。

And therefore in India, trust still comes from a lot of names of people who had a lot of trust behind them and reputation behind them.

因此，在印度，信任仍然来自于许多人的名字，他们背后有很多信任和声誉。

I want to zoom out a little bit before we go in a different direction.

在我们走向不同的方向之前，我想把镜头缩小一点。

What do you see as either the most pressing challenges in India right now for tech and/or the biggest opportunity for Indian startups?

您认为目前印度科技面临的最紧迫挑战和/或印度初创企业最大的机遇是什么？

And then just generally where do you think things will evolve in the next few years?

那么您认为未来几年事情会发生什么变化？

Sometimes I wonder if the challenges and the opportunities are exactly the same.

有时我想知道挑战和机遇是否完全相同。

For example, one of the biggest challenges we have is, we have very low female participation of labor compared to many markets.

例如，我们面临的最大挑战之一是，与许多市场相比，我们的女性劳动力参与率非常低。

But I also believe it's an opportunity because you can, let's say, use AI and create many new types of business and opportunities because now work from home is not an alien concept anymore.

但我也相信这是一个机会，因为你可以使用人工智能并创造许多新类型的业务和机会，因为现在在家工作不再是一个陌生的概念。

You can actually create very interesting businesses for that.

实际上你可以为此创建非常有趣的业务。

Number two is we are low on per capita income.

第二是我们的人均收入较低。

So what AI can do instead of taking our jobs away, is just make us brighter.

因此，人工智能不会夺走我们的工作，而是让我们变得更加聪明。

Satya talks about how expertise is now available in the air.

萨提亚 (Satya) 谈论了如何在空中获取专业知识。

So you can actually just ride on that and really make the world very equal in many many ways.

所以你实际上可以利用这一点，在很多方面真正让世界变得非常平等。

So that's a massive opportunity and also a challenge, because I often make this joke that the largest employer of the world is ‘inefficiency’, and if you take that away too quickly, we'll have a very, very jobless world.

因此，这是一个巨大的机遇，也是一个挑战，因为我经常开玩笑说，世界上最大的雇主“效率低下”，如果你太快地消除这一点，我们将面临一个非常非常失业的世界。

So the thing is that it can be an opportunity for a country like India and also potentially a threat because if we don't start becoming great at AI.

因此，对于像印度这样的国家来说，这可能是一个机会，但也可能是一个威胁，因为如果我们不开始在人工智能方面变得出色。

I was actually just telling somebody today that maybe all of our interviews should be about giving a task that they can only perform if they are very good at AI.

事实上，我今天只是告诉某人，也许我们所有的采访都应该是关于给予他们只有非常擅长人工智能才能执行的任务。

And no matter what the job is, you make that the minimum criteria that if they cannot use that, leverage that, they'll become a liability in 5 years anyways.

无论什么工作，你都会制定最低标准，如果他们不能使用它，利用它，他们无论如何都会在 5 年内成为一种负担。

And the last one is, we have a very young demographic, very well positioned with access to technology, access to smartphones and so on and so forth, a lot of hunger.

最后一个是，我们有一个非常年轻的人口，非常容易获得技术、智能手机等等，并且有很多饥饿感。

But our challenge is that it's also the first generation that is truly learning what entrepreneurship is, what risk is, and we'll make all sorts of mistakes to get there.

但我们面临的挑战是，这也是第一代真正了解什么是创业、什么是风险的人，为了实现这一目标，我们会犯各种错误。

And I hope we don't go into a shell after having these large scale failures that we have not seen before.

我希望在发生这些我们从未见过的大规模故障后，我们不会陷入困境。

Like the startup world is used to layoffs, but in India, if startups do layoffs, it becomes the national news and all sorts of discussions happen over here.

就像初创企业已经习惯了裁员一样，但在印度，如果初创企业裁员，就会成为全国新闻，各种各样的讨论都会在这里发生。

So we are stuck between being somewhat of a collectivist or somewhat of an individualistic society.

因此，我们陷入了集体主义社会和个人主义社会之间的困境。

India is a great remix of everything.

印度是一切事物的完美融合。

I love this line you just shared of “inefficiencies is the largest employer in the world”.

我喜欢你刚刚分享的这句话“低效率是世界上最大的雇主”。

So let's talk about CRED for a bit.

那么我们来谈谈 CRED。

So you had, I think three startups before CRED?

所以我想在 CRED 之前你已经有过 3 家初创公司了？

And then you've been building CRED for about six years now.

到现在为止，您已经构建 CRED 大约六年了。

I'm curious just on this journey of CRED, what you've learned or changed your mind about, during this phase of your career versus previous phases.

我很好奇在 CRED 的这段旅程中，您在职业生涯的这个阶段与之前的阶段相比学到了什么或改变了主意。

I think CRED's insight was actually quite simple.

我认为 CRED 的见解其实很简单。

We realized that unfortunately the value of time and per capita income is concentrated with 25 million families and therefore focusing on them is important.

我们意识到，不幸的是，时间和人均收入的价值集中在 2500 万个家庭身上，因此关注他们非常重要。

And they are a lot more global in their approach versus the rest of India.

与印度其他地区相比，他们的做法更加全球化。

So you have to build for them very differently.

所以你必须为他们进行非常不同的构建。

And I realized that the ability to focus on a customer set, which is not historically possible to do because every investor expected us to be the next China, and the only similarity of India and China was the population and nothing else was similar.

我意识到，能够专注于客户群体，这在历史上是不可能做到的，因为每个投资者都希望我们成为下一个中国，而印度和中国唯一的相似之处就是人口，其他方面都没有相似之处。

So I think having that conviction that, “I'm going to build only for these folks and this large enough market.”

因此，我认为有这样的信念：“我只会为这些人和这个足够大的市场而建造。”

Thankfully I had one success for somebody to bet.

值得庆幸的是，我成功地让别人打赌了。

So our series A was $25 million.

所以我们的 A 轮融资是 2500 万美元。

I would've not had that luxury if I had no success in the past because I had no product with any monetization to prove that I'm doing the right thing.

如果我过去没有成功，我就不会拥有这种奢侈，因为我没有任何可以货币化的产品来证明我在做正确的事情。

It turned out okay, but I think I could get a lot of people to take a risk behind my insight or my thesis because I focused on the right customer category and built on it.

结果还不错，但我认为我可以让很多人在我的见解或论文背后冒险，因为我专注于正确的客户类别并以此为基础。

But I think the few things I've learned differently is that companies that are very, very good at zero to one will not naturally become great at 10 to 100.

但我认为我学到的一些不同的东西是，在 0 到 1 方面非常非常擅长的公司不会自然而然地在 10 到 100 时变得伟大。

There are lots of different lessons to learn.

有很多不同的教训需要学习。

That’s the biggest thing that has to happen.

这是必须发生的最重要的事情。

Most people at CRED are people who have not seen a bigger business than CRED, which comes with its benefits and costs.

CRED 的大多数人都没有见过比 CRED 更大的业务，它带来的好处和成本也随之而来。

So you have to gentrify the org every now and then to make people understand the value of many of these reliable things.

因此，你必须时不时地对组织进行中产阶级化，以使人们了解许多这些可靠事物的价值。

And I often tell people that entrepreneurs are uncertainty absorbers for everybody- for employees, for investors, for customers- and therefore they get rewarded for being those people who remove uncertainty from people's lives.

我经常告诉人们，企业家是每个人的不确定性吸收者——员工、投资者、客户——因此，他们因消除人们生活中的不确定性而获得回报。

But the kind of expectations keep changing at companies of scale.

但对于规模较大的公司来说，这种期望一直在变化。

For example, if you have, let's say a seed stage investor, they are very used to very high uncertainty and they're happy with some absorption.

例如，如果您有一位种子期投资者，他们非常习惯于非常高的不确定性，并且对吸收一些资金感到满意。

But as you get a growth investor, and let's say you have sovereigns on your cap table, the amount of stability you need to provide is significantly more, and therefore you need to evolve very, very differently.

但当你有了一个成长型投资者，假设你的股权结构表上有主权国家，你需要提供的稳定性就会明显增加，因此你需要以非常非常不同的方式发展。

So I think those are the few lessons that I've learned.

所以我认为这些是我学到的少数教训。

Talent, you start realizing that not everybody can scale into everything.

人才，你开始意识到并不是每个人都能扩展到所有领域。

And you cannot expect that you can give up the 0 to 1 DNA just because you're building 10 to 100.

你不能指望仅仅因为你正在构建 10 到 100 的 DNA，就可以放弃 0 到 1 的 DNA。

So how do you kind of coexist with those things?

那么你如何与这些东西共存呢？

How do you react to big changes in the market and not become this slow company?

您如何应对市场的巨大变化，而不是成为一家缓慢的公司？

And every company goes through that.

每个公司都会经历这个过程。

I mean if you look at what Zuck went through in the last three or four years was that.

我的意思是，如果你看看扎克在过去三四年里经历了什么，就会发现。

I often say that he had to play the Shiva, come and do a lot of destruction to become big again.

我经常说他必须扮演湿婆，来进行大量破坏才能再次变得强大。

So I think that's what founders can do, and it's not easy to do.

所以我认为这就是创始人可以做的事情，而且做起来并不容易。

One of the things I've learned is that profit pools of a country tell you a lot about what the country values.

我学到的一件事是，一个国家的利润池可以告诉你很多关于这个国家价值观的信息。

And trying to copy somebody else's profit pool to your country will not be a wise idea because the country's values are demonstrated in what profit pools exist.

试图将别人的利润池复制到你的国家并不是一个明智的想法，因为国家的价值观体现在存在的利润池中。

In the thousand most profitable companies in India, the number of retailers would be probably two or three.

在印度最赚钱的一千家公司中，零售商的数量可能只有两到三个。

But if you look at the Western market, you'll see a bunch of them because it's a consumption market, plus a very high divorce rate which means you're always peacocking again in the market, you're trying to be fit and be cool and all of that.

但如果你看看西方市场，你会看到很多这样的人，因为这是一个消费市场，再加上离婚率非常高，这意味着你总是在市场上炫耀，你试图保持健康、保持冷静等等。

India has a very low divorce rate, less than 1%, are arranged marriages.

印度的离婚率很低，不到1%，都是包办婚姻。

Fashion spends, and because we have a lower female participation of labor, India is probably the only market where female fashion spends is less than men's fashion spends.

时尚支出，由于女性劳动力参与率较低，印度可能是唯一一个女性时尚支出低于男性时尚支出的市场。

Everywhere else, it's probably five, 6x more for them.

在其他地方，对他们来说可能是五到六倍。

So what happens is you start appreciating what the country values.

所以发生的事情是你开始欣赏这个国家的价值观。

For example, I have noticed that many patriarchal societies have a very significant market cap in financial services versus consumption.

例如，我注意到许多父权社会在金融服务与消费方面的市场上限非常大。

And these broad patterns, you start thinking about very, very differently.

对于这些广泛的模式，你开始以非常非常不同的方式思考。

I love this idea of a founder being an uncertainty absorber.

我喜欢创始人作为不确定性吸收者的想法。

This other point you made about Zuck becoming the Shiva and destruction touches on something Brian Chesky and I chatted a bit about, how founders often start in control, very micromanaging, just driving the ship.

你提出的关于扎克成为湿婆和破坏的另一点涉及布莱恩·切斯基和我聊过的一些事情，创始人通常如何开始控制，非常微观管理，只是驾驶这艘船。

And then as the company grows, they delegate and empower and then things start to slow down and then they come back, play the Shiva and take control again.

然后随着公司的发展，他们会授权和授权，然后事情开始放慢，然后他们回来，扮演湿婆并再次控制。

Is there anything there that you've seen-

有没有什么你见过的——

Yeah, but that's the universe.

是的，但这就是宇宙。

The universe goes through the exact same phases.

宇宙经历完全相同的阶段。

So if you study Indian mythology, you'll see that there's a Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh cycles and every yugg As it’s called, goes through these three phases all the time.

所以如果你研究印度神话，你会发现有梵天、毗湿奴、马赫什循环，而每一个所谓的尤格人，总是经历这三个阶段。

I love how this all just ties back to your philosophy background.

我喜欢这一切与你的哲学背景的联系。

This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights hub for product teams.

本集由产品团队的客户洞察中心 Dovetail 为您带来。

Are you working in a feature factory building filler that nobody wants?

您是否在无人想要的特色工厂建筑填充物中工作？

Probably, because the sad truth is that most SaaS features are rarely or never used, costing the industry billions every year.

可能是这样，因为可悲的事实是，大多数 SaaS 功能很少或从未使用过，每年给行业造成数十亿美元的损失。

Product managers, Dovetail is holding their first industry conference, it's called Insight Out, and they want you to come over one day in San Francisco.

产品经理 Dovetail 正在举办他们的第一次行业会议，名为 Insight Out，他们希望您有一天能来旧金山。

The product community is coming together to learn how to better leverage customer insights and build products that people actually love to use.

产品社区齐聚一堂，学习如何更好地利用客户洞察并构建人们真正喜欢使用的产品。

It's on April 11, and you can hear from product leaders from Uber, Twitch Meta and Netflix as they share their strategies for driving innovation, thriving in uncertainty and balancing customer centered work with business needs.

4 月 11 日，您可以听到 Uber、Twitch Meta 和 Netflix 的产品负责人分享他们推动创新、在不确定性中蓬勃发展以及平衡以客户为中心的工作与业务需求的策略。

And here's the kicker, it's absolutely free for online tickets.

更重要的是，在线门票完全免费。

Just go to dovetail.com/lenny to register.

只需前往 dovetail.com/lenny 进行注册即可。

This is thanks to Dovetail, the best way for product teams to get the most out of customer insights.

这要归功于 Dovetail，它是产品团队充分利用客户洞察的最佳方式。

Check it out at dovetail.com/lenny.

请访问 dovetail.com/lenny 进行查看。

So here's a funny thing that happened.

所以这里发生了一件有趣的事情。

I asked people on Twitter what questions to ask you on this podcast, and one of the most common questions was “When do you think you'll become profitable?”

我在 Twitter 上问人们在这个播客中要问你什么问题，最常见的问题之一是“你认为你什么时候会盈利？”

Which is interesting because when I have other CEOs that are founding a company that is, and most companies aren't profitable, nobody's asking that question.

这很有趣，因为当我有其他首席执行官创立一家公司时，大多数公司都没有盈利，没有人问这个问题。

So I'm just curious, why is that such a common question that comes up?

所以我很好奇，为什么会出现这样一个常见问题？

As a country, most businesses were of trading, you buy something at low cost, sell at a higher price and you make profit.

作为一个国家，大多数企业都是贸易，你以低成本购买东西，以更高的价格出售，然后你就可以获利。

Most of our businesses, most of our family businesses were trading.

我们的大多数企业、我们的大多数家族企业都在进行贸易。

But building a CapEx heavy distribution, monetizing it later on, focusing on high revenue growth rate versus trying to get profitability first, is not known to us.

但我们并不知道如何建立资本支出大的分配，然后将其货币化，专注于高收入增长率而不是首先尝试获得盈利。

So when they see these large numbers of losses, there's a shock.

因此，当他们看到如此大量的损失时，会感到震惊。

“Why would somebody give you this kind of money?”

“为什么有人会给你这么多钱？”

And by the way, my own dad wouldn't respect me till I was building a profitable company.

顺便说一句，在我建立一家盈利的公司之前，我自己的父亲不会尊重我。

So it's not surprising that people in India have these comments, but it also comes from not understanding how businesses are built in the internet world, where VCs are giving you the capital to build distribution, unique product edge, brand, all of that stuff, and then monetize later on and monetize big and then have very large profit pools to go after.

因此，印度人有这些评论并不奇怪，但这也是因为他们不了解互联网世界中的企业是如何建立的，在互联网世界中，风投为你提供资本来建立分销、独特的产品优势、品牌，所有这些东西，然后货币化，然后大规模货币化，然后拥有非常大的利润池可供追求。

But a lot of times this comes from not understanding this business, and I feel it'll change because many internet companies are now getting very profitable and public listed.

但很多时候这是因为不了解这个业务，我觉得它会改变，因为许多互联网公司现在变得非常盈利并公开上市。

In the US, maybe 27-30% of the US market cap is now tech companies.

在美国，科技公司现在可能占美国市值的 27-30%。

In India tech companies would probably make less than 2- 3% of the market cap.

在印度，科技公司的市值可能不到 2-3%。

So we are mostly, and I'm not saying India has this fabulous history of building very, very profitable tech companies.

所以我们大部分都是，我并不是说印度拥有建立非常非常盈利的科技公司的辉煌历史。

We are probably the first generation that will have to prove ourselves to be very large profitable companies.

我们可能是第一代必须证明自己是盈利能力很强的公司的第一代人。

But we are still figuring out what this means.

但我们仍在弄清楚这意味着什么。

And the fact that this question, by the way, I can tell you one thing that, I have been asked this question by people on Twitter way more than any of my investors have ever asked me this question.

事实上，顺便说一句，我可以告诉你一件事，推特上问我这个问题的人比我的任何投资者问过我这个问题的人都要多。

This also creates an arbitrage for entrepreneurs who can actually build businesses and have the ability to raise capital and prove their business model with very high revenue growth rate and build large brands and so on and so forth.

这也为那些能够真正建立企业、有能力筹集资金、以非常高的收入增长率证明其商业模式并建立大品牌等等的企业家创造了套利。

But I find it fascinating as well.

但我也觉得它很有趣。

Also, one thing we see fascinating in India is that there is an immense amount of trolling and doubt that will come in your comments no matter what you do.

此外，我们在印度看到的一件令人着迷的事情是，无论你做什么，你的评论中都会出现大量的恶搞和怀疑。

So if you see any founder in India, they'll post something about the thing, the comments will rarely have appreciation.

因此，如果你在印度看到任何创始人，他们会发布一些有关此事的内容，但这些评论很少会受到赞赏。

So it feels sad because, when you see global companies do stuff, Indians will lose their shit on Apple Vision Pro and all this stuff and Twitter will go gaga over it.

所以这让人感到悲伤，因为当你看到跨国公司在做一些事情时，印度人会因为Apple Vision Pro而失去他们的兴趣，而所有这些东西和Twitter都会为之疯狂。

But I think when it comes to...and I believe envy is hyperlocal.

但我认为，当谈到……我相信嫉妒是超本地化的。

We do not envy Elon Musk for all the stuff he does because he's so far away.

我们并不羡慕埃隆·马斯克所做的一切，因为他离我们太远了。

But we envy our own because they were just like us not many years ago.

但我们羡慕我们自己的人，因为他们就像几年前的我们一样。

And therefore envy is like wifi.

因此嫉妒就像无线网络一样。

It's like a hyperlocal service.

这就像一个超本地化服务。

How do you stay positive and focused and not let that stuff bring you down?

你如何保持积极和专注而不让这些事情让你沮丧？

And do you have advice for founders in India that are dealing with the same sort of feedback?

对于处理同样类型反馈的印度创始人，您有什么建议吗？

It's funny the number of calls I've got from founders who start getting hate.

有趣的是，我接到了很多创始人打来的电话，他们开始遭到仇恨。

I’m the go-to person to get these call because they've seen me get it for many more years.

我是接到这些电话的首选人员，因为他们已经看到我接到这些电话很多年了。

And I tell people that we couldn't have made it this far if we cared about criticism of everybody versus people who've done better than us.

我告诉人们，如果我们关心对每个人以及比我们做得更好的人的批评，我们就不可能走到这一步。

If somebody who's done anything better than me gives me any amount of criticism, I will absolutely flip and make all the changes and evolve.

如果某个比我做得更好的人给了我任何批评，我绝对会翻转并做出所有改变并不断发展。

And I seek feedback all the time from people.

我一直在寻求人们的反馈。

But if I start taking feedback from everybody who does not understand the nuance and empathize with what I'm doing, I'm not saying that we should not take customer feedback, that's very different.

但是，如果我开始从每个不理解细微差别并同情我正在做的事情的人那里获取反馈，我并不是说我们不应该接受客户反馈，这是非常不同的。

But let's say somebody commenting about your business, who does not understand the nuance of it, you can't be reacting to everything.

但是，假设有人对您的业务进行评论，但他不了解其中的细微差别，您就不可能对所有事情都做出反应。

And I often tell people that there's a reason elements with lower valencies are called noble gases because they're hardest to get reactions from.

我经常告诉人们，价态较低的元素被称为惰性气体是有原因的，因为它们最难发生反应。

That's over my head, but I love it anyway.

这超出了我的能力范围，但无论如何我喜欢它。

I love all these elements you're pointing out of how different building in India is.

我喜欢你指出的印度建筑的不同之处的所有这些元素。

I think people in the US have no idea about it.

我认为美国人对此一无所知。

And so I appreciate you getting into all these little elements.

所以我很感谢你参与所有这些小元素。

Is there anything else around the Indian market that may surprise people before we go in a different direction about building a startup there?

在我们朝着不同的方向在那里建立一家初创公司之前，印度市场上还有什么可能会让人们感到惊讶的吗？

For all the challenges, India remains the most promising market that one can be building for right now because everything is going our way.

尽管面临所有挑战，印度仍然是目前最有前途的市场，因为一切都在朝着我们的方向发展。

We have all sorts of digital public infrastructure, government support, all these great people doing extraordinary things, apart from the Twitter noise.

除了推特噪音之外，我们拥有各种数字公共基础设施、政府支持，所有这些伟大的人都在做着非凡的事情。

And Twitter is designed for outrage getting likes.

Twitter 就是为了让愤怒得到点赞而设计的。

So I wouldn't read too much into it.

所以我不会对其进行过多的解读。

But I think all of us are doing well because we have an audience set, an evolved ecosystem that is fully supporting us and really taking it forward.

但我认为我们所有人都做得很好，因为我们有一个受众群体，一个不断发展的生态系统，它完全支持我们并真正推动我们前进。

So I think I wouldn't want to be anywhere else in building because of this extremely vibrant, crazy opportunity that one can learn from.

所以我想我不会想去建筑界的其他地方，因为这是一个非常充满活力、疯狂的机会，人们可以从中学习。

However, I often wish that I could get a one month internship with Brian and learn how to do things.

然而，我常常希望能和布莱恩一起实习一个月，学习如何做事。

And I've never had the luxury.

而我从来没有享受过这样的奢侈。

I can only watch his podcast with you to learn a few things, but what if I got a chance to be there?

我只能和你一起看他的播客来了解一些东西，但如果我有机会在那里呢？

And I miss that part where I've never been really trained by these extraordinary product brains or even observed them make decisions.

我怀念那些我从未真正接受过这些非凡的产品大脑的培训，甚至观察他们做出决策的部分。

So I recently posted one thing that the word ‘operation theater’ comes because operating used to be a public process and people used to pay money to watch surgeries and see all the bloody gory stuff and even before anesthesia was born.

所以我最近发布了一件事，“手术室”这个词的出现是因为手术曾经是一个公共过程，人们过去常常花钱观看手术，看到所有血腥的东西，甚至在麻醉诞生之前。

And there's so much joy in seeing somebody do their action.

看到有人采取行动会让人感到非常高兴。

And I wish there was a theater for Brian taking a product decision, Zuck taking a hard call on killing a product or seeing Tim rejecting all the ideas that they have before the GTM of a product.

我希望布莱恩能够做出产品决策，扎克可以艰难地决定扼杀一款产品，或者看到蒂姆拒绝他们在产品 GTM 之前提出的所有想法。

I think we could benefit so much from that.

我认为我们可以从中受益匪浅。

And unfortunately it remains in very small circles.

不幸的是，它仍然局限于很小的圈子里。

And like I said, the reason I said you do a fabulous job of removing some of the information asymmetry and kind of making it more democratic.

就像我说的，我之所以说你们在消除一些信息不对称方面做得非常出色，并使其更加民主。

But there is so much more that we all could learn.

但我们还有很多东西可以学习。

And I feel extremely envious of many people who have the opportunity to work with the best of the best because, many of us from India never had the luxury.

我非常羡慕许多有机会与最优秀的人一起工作的人，因为我们许多来自印度的人从未享受过这种奢侈。

We had to figure out everything on our own.

我们必须自己解决一切。

How cool would that be just to have a camera in some of those meetings just as a learning experience, because very few people are in those rooms and there's so much to learn.

如果在某些会议中配备摄像头作为一种学习体验，那该多酷啊，因为这些房间里的​​人很少，而且有很多东西要学。

I think though people will find, “Holy shit, one, this is how decisions are made, what is going on?”

我认为人们会发现，“天哪，一，这就是决策的方式，到底发生了什么？”

And two is , “I don't want to work for this person.

第二是，“我不想为这个人工作。

This sounds very difficult and stressful.”

这听起来非常困难且压力很大。”

Those are probably some takeaways that will emerge.

这些可能是将会出现的一些要点。

Kind of along these lines, something that comes up a lot in your talks and work is curiosity.

沿着这个思路，在你的谈话和工作中经常出现的东西就是好奇心。

You have a show called CRED curious.

你们有一个名为 CRED 好奇的节目。

You often talk about the power of curiosity.

您经常谈论好奇心的力量。

I'm just curious, why is curiosity so important to you and why is it important for other people to always stay curious and what value is there?

我只是好奇，为什么好奇心对你来说如此重要，为什么其他人始终保持好奇心也很重要，这有什么价值？

I think a curious person is somebody who is constantly demonstrating that they are not proud of their expertise, and they will demonstrate extraordinary amounts of excitement when they face a problem which they have no clue how to solve.

我认为一个好奇的人是一个不断表现出他们并不为自己的专业知识感到自豪的人，当他们面对一个他们不知道如何解决的问题时，他们会表现出异常的兴奋。

And therefore a lot of people stop growing because they want to constantly demonstrate their expertise versus demonstrating their curiosity.

因此，很多人停止成长，因为他们想不断地展示自己的专业知识，而不是展示自己的好奇心。

Because, curiosity should come from security because imagine- I'm the founder, CEO of this company and this group of 60 people on WhatsApp, somebody posts something and asks a dumb question, “What does this word mean?”

因为，好奇心应该来自安全感，因为想象一下——我是这家公司的创始人、首席执行官，也是 WhatsApp 上这群 60 人的人，有人发布了一些东西并问了一个愚蠢的问题，“这个词是什么意思？”

You need to have the security to feel okay with it, but a lot of people out off insecurity try to demonstrate expertise and do it or Google to not ask these people.

你需要有安全感才能对此感到满意，但很多人出于不安全感而试图展示专业知识，并这样做或谷歌不要求这些人。

And I think that slows down the compounding growth and I think it keeps you from being very good at adapting.

我认为这会减慢复合增长，并且让你无法很好地适应。

So it's funny, I was recently.

所以这很有趣，我最近也是。

GPT is my favorite thing to keep asking random questions because now I don't need to really worry about Google having those questions answered around because I can ask the GPT.

GPT 是我最喜欢不断提出随机问题的东西，因为现在我不需要真正担心 Google 会回答这些问题，因为我可以询问 GPT。

So I recently asked the question: which species or animals have survived for more than 100 million years without changing too much and what is common in all of them?

所以我最近问了一个问题：哪些物种或动物存活了一亿多年而没有发生太大变化，它们有什么共同点？

So GPT came up with an interesting answer which says that sharks, horseshoe crabs, crocodiles, and all of these animals have survived to do this thing.

所以GPT想出了一个有趣的答案，它说鲨鱼、鲎、鳄鱼和所有这些动物都幸存下来来做这件事。

So three distinct traits were, one, ability to reduce metabolism at will.

因此，三个不同的特征是，第一，能够随意降低新陈代谢。

I can bring down my metabolism by 1:20 or a crazy, crazy scale that they can bring the metabolism down.

我可以将我的新陈代谢降低 1:20 或者一个疯狂的、疯狂的比例，他们可以降低新陈代谢。

By the way, ancient yogis have demonstrated this as well.

顺便说一句，古代瑜伽士也证明了这一点。

It comes from the same yogic practice.

它来自相同的瑜伽练习。

The second thing is about, and if you think about companies, the context is the same.

第二件事是，如果你考虑公司，背景是一样的。

If COVID came, you could slow down your metabolism and survive, right?

如果新冠病毒来了，你可以减慢新陈代谢并生存，对吗？

Or you burned your way out and disappeared.

或者你烧毁了自己的出路并消失了。

The second thing that was interesting was the very high conversion rate on every attempt to secure food.

第二件有趣的事情是每次尝试获取食物的转化率都非常高。

They don't go around chasing randomly and doing things.

他们不会到处乱跑、胡乱做事。

They have a very high conversion rate, which means high judgment and the deadliest bite.

它们的转化率非常高，这意味着高判断力和最致命的咬合。

So they'll not chase many options, but if they chase something, they will have the biggest bite and they'll convert it.

因此，他们不会追求很多选择，但如果他们追求某些东西，他们将获得最大的份额，并且他们会转换它。

And the third thing that was more interesting was that they have survived all sorts of crazy environmental changes, just adapting.

第三件更有趣的是，它们在各种疯狂的环境变化中幸存下来，只是适应。

And adaptation comes from curiosity.

而适应来自于好奇心。

And you could see those people.

你可以看到那些人。

In COVID, there were two sets of people, who were completely gone into a shell and there were those who were curious.

在新冠疫情中，有两类人，一类人完全进入了外壳，另一类人则充满好奇。

“Okay, so what do I do with this?”

“好吧，那我该怎么办呢？”

“Do I need to change something?”

“我需要改变什么吗？”

“Do I need to tweak something?”

“我需要调整一些东西吗？”

So the ability to change very quickly.

所以能力变化非常快。

I often feel that curiosity is that demonstration of the ability to adapt and learn, and you only create more information asymmetry.

我常常觉得好奇心是适应能力和学习能力的表现，而你只会造成更多的信息不对称。

To me, wealth is nothing but information asymmetry.

对我来说，财富只不过是信息不对称。

All the best companies in the world have unfair information asymmetry.

世界上所有最好的公司都存在不公平的信息不对称。

And that comes from curiosity.

这来自好奇心。

Because you're constantly collecting dots, connecting dots, collecting dots, connecting dots, and end up creating this unique edge for yourself and information asymmetry for yourself.

因为你不断地收集点、连接点、收集点、连接点，最终为自己创造了这种独特的优势，并为自己创造了信息不对称。

And if you assume that “I have collected enough,” no human life is going to be enough to connect and connect all the dots.

如果你假设“我已经收集了足够多的东西”，那么任何人的生命都不足以连接和连接所有的点。

And sometimes I envy the stuff that you do because you are efficiently connecting and collecting dots by having the luxury of all these people to talk to, and you are making more dots getting connected.

有时我很羡慕你所做的事情，因为你可以通过与所有这些人交谈来有效地连接和收集点，并且你正在让更多的点被连接起来。

So your information asymmetry is growing.

所以你们的信息不对称正在加剧。

Wait until you IPO, and then someday maybe leave CRED and then you could start this podcast with everyone like this and connect all the dots.

等到你首次公开募股，然后有一天也许离开 CRED，然后你就可以像这样与每个人一起开始这个播客，并将所有点连接起来。

And I think that's a reference to Danny Meyer who's the founder of all these fancy restaurants and big on hospitality and has this phrase “Always be collecting dots”, I think ABCD, I’ll link to that.

我认为这是指丹尼·迈耶 (Danny Meyer)，他是所有这些高档餐厅的创始人，热衷于热情好客，并有这句话“永远收集点”，我想 ABCD，我将链接到该短语。

Wait, this is really interesting, this list of what are the common traits of the most long-lasting animals?

等等，这真的很有趣，这个最长寿动物的共同特征是什么？

They can lower their metabolism at will, they have a high conversion rate to get food, and they've survived many types of environments.

它们可以随意降低新陈代谢，获取食物的转化率很高，并且能够在多种环境中生存。

And I think there's a lot you can transform as you've done, to startups and leaders.

我认为对于初创公司和领导者来说，你可以像你所做的那样改变很多事情。

if you haven't written about this, this would be a cool blog post.

如果您还没有写过这篇文章，这将是一篇很酷的博客文章。

I'm curious who you look up to in business, either in India and outside India.

我很好奇你在商界尊敬谁，无论是在印度还是在印度以外的地方。

Who comes to mind where you're like, I really inspired, I'm inspired by these folks?

你会想到谁，我真的受到了这些人的启发？

I often tell people that I hate the word ‘favorite’ because it tells me to become limited in my mind.

我经常告诉人们我讨厌“最喜欢”这个词，因为它告诉我要在思想上受到限制。

So I stay away from ‘favorite’, but I learn all the time from everybody.

所以我远离“最喜欢的”，但我一直向每个人学习。

And there are so many people to learn from across the world and in history, in the recent past and every time you'll discover fascinating, extraordinary things about them.

世界各地、历史上、近代有很多人值得学习，每次你都会发现他们身上迷人、非凡的事情。

So I don't think I have a person.

所以我不认为我有一个人。

I am this person who thinks about about: ”How did they solve this hard problem.”

我就是这个思考“他们是如何解决这个难题的人”的人。

So one of the things that we started doing recently and not very ritualistic about it so far is, I ask myself and my key reportees every month, we go around the table and ask ourselves, ”What are the hardest problems we solved last month?”

因此，我们最近开始做的一件事到目前为止还不是很例行公事，我每个月都会问自己和我的主要报告者，我们会绕着桌子问自己，“我们上个月解决的最难的问题是什么？”

And it's very hard to come up with an answer.

并且很难给出答案。

And if you do this to the product leaders, just go around and ask, “What are the hard problems you solved last month?”

如果你对产品负责人这样做，只需四处询问：“你上个月解决的难题是什么？”

You'll realize that we all stay very busy and displacement is hard.

你会意识到我们都非常忙碌，而且转移是很困难的。

But if you notice extraordinarily successful people, they'll have a lot more content to talk about every month, every quarter because they're obsessed with making that big displacement and it does not come by being busy.

但如果你注意到非常成功的人，他们每个月、每个季度都会有更多的内容可以谈论，因为他们痴迷于做出巨大的改变，而这并不是通过忙碌来实现的。

And that's another thing that you cannot chase the big thing.

这又是你无法追逐大事的另一件事。

You don't see a crocodile being busy.

你看不到鳄鱼在忙碌。

You see a crocodile just waiting patiently at the watering hole for that best meal and have the deadliest bite for that.

你会看到一条鳄鱼在水坑里耐心地等待着最好的一顿美餐，并为此咬下了最致命的一口。

So the beautiful definition of predators I read was “one who burns the least amount of calories to earn the most amount of calories.”

因此，我读到的掠食者的美丽定义是“燃烧最少卡路里以获得最多卡路里的人”。

And I think when I meet people who are extraordinary at that, and it comes in all shapes and forms, I learn something from them.

我认为，当我遇到在这方面表现出色的人时，我会从他们身上学到一些东西。

So in these meetings you have, are you judging people's success based on how many hard problems they solve?

那么，在这些会议中，您是否根据人们解决了多少难题来判断他们的成功？

Now that they've heard this, they're going to be like, I need more.

现在他们听到这个后，他们会说，我需要更多。

Because if you're a senior, what is the role of a senior person?

因为如果你是一名高级人员，那么高级人员的角色是什么？

You have to be the chief problem solver.

你必须成为主要的问题解决者。

I often think of leaders as professional firefighters who have just endless fires to put out.

我经常认为领导者是专业的消防员，他们有无尽的火灾需要扑灭。

Kind of along the lines of people and where you learn from, are there any sources of content?

有点像人和你学习的地方一样，有什么内容来源吗？

This is actually an audience question on Twitter.

这实际上是 Twitter 上的一个观众提问。

Anurag Verma asks this, “What are your favorite sources of content to learn from in terms of what's happening in the world and what to pay attention to?”

阿努拉格·维尔马 (Anurag Verma) 问道：“关于世界上正在发生的事情以及需要关注的内容，您最喜欢从哪些内容来源中学习？”

I wish I could think of an answer.

我希望我能想到一个答案。

My method of collecting information is mostly about, I come up with conjectures in my head and then I go all over the place to find out if there is proof if what I'm saying is true or not.

我收集信息的方法主要是，我在脑子里想出一个猜想，然后我到处去看看我说的是否有证据。

For example, I recently came up with a conjecture that everybody who has been successful in the history of business of vices, historically has done a lot of philanthropy to create a good image for themselves, and therefore is being treated as a respected citizen versus being treated as a person who did vices to make wealth.

例如，我最近提出一个猜想，每一个在罪恶商业史上取得成功的人，在历史上都做了很多慈善事业，为自己树立了良好的形象，因此被视为受人尊敬的公民，而不是被视为一个通过做恶来赚钱的人。

And then I asked GPT to come up with 50 people who did that and what were their vices?

然后我让 GPT 找出 50 名这样做过的人，他们有哪些恶习？

How did they change the reputation by doing lots of philanthropy and all of that stuff?

他们是如何通过做大量慈善事业和所有这些事情来改变声誉的？

And then I research in all sorts of directions.

然后我在各个方向进行研究。

And I have no boundaries if I go to chemistry or physics or human behavior to discover some universal principles.

如果我研究化学、物理或人类行为来发现一些普遍原理，我就没有界限。

So my method of learning is to constantly come up with conjectures from the dots that you have connected and then absolutely work hard to find proof of it and then use that to connect to the next dot.

所以我的学习方法是不断地从你所连接的点中提出猜想，然后绝对努力地找到它的证据，然后用它来连接到下一个点。

So I often tell people that every book you read makes your brain poorer to read the next book.

所以我经常告诉人们，你读的每一本书都会让你的大脑更无力阅读下一本书。

That's the purpose of books, but that's true for every single thing we learn.

这是书籍的目的，但对于我们学到的每一件事来说也是如此。

It makes our brain poorerfor the next thing that we are supposed to learn.

它使我们的大脑更无力应对我们应该学习的下一件事。

Is there a recent example of that where you got super sucked into some topic?

最近有没有一个你对某个话题非常着迷的例子？

I get sucked into topics every now and then.

我时不时就会陷入话题。

For example, I've been thinking about second order effects of AI and what happens to countries and jobs and how to expect some of these things to change, not change, rate of change, rate of skill change.

例如，我一直在思考人工智能的二阶效应，以及国家和工作会发生什么，以及如何期望其中一些事情发生变化，而不是变化，变化率，技能变化率。

I got recently obsessed with what happens to lab grown diamonds if they become big?

我最近着迷于实验室培育的钻石如果变大会发生什么？

And then I looked at parallels.

然后我看了相似之处。

So, the pearl industry was very big before culture.

因此，珍珠产业在文化诞生之前就已经非常庞大了。

Cultured pearls came and the high status of pearls disappeared because everybody could have pearls.

养殖珍珠出现了，珍珠的崇高地位消失了，因为每个人都可以拥有珍珠。

But not too long ago, pearls were a very royal thing .

但不久前，珍珠还是一件非常皇家的东西。

Every prince and princess used to have pearls around them, but as soon as it was easy to manufacture in a lab, it lost its value.

每个王子和公主的身边都曾经有过珍珠，但一旦珍珠在实验室中易于制造，它就失去了价值。

So then I think should I be shorting or going long on diamonds thinking about what happens?

那么我想我应该做空还是做多钻石，思考会发生什么？

But there'll be a temporary period of making a lot of money on lab grown diamonds, which will kill...

但将会有一段时间靠实验室生产的钻石赚很多钱，这会杀死……

it'll become parasitic on the status of diamonds and destroy all of the profit pools.

它将寄生于钻石的地位并摧毁所有的利润池。

You heard it here first, time to buy some diamond futures.

您首先在这里听到的是，是时候购买一些钻石期货了。

I feel like there's no one in the world ChatGPT impacted more than you considering how much you want to spend digging into random topics.

我觉得世界上没有人比你想花多少钱去挖掘随机主题更能受到 ChatGPT 的影响。

I often wonder, Lenny, that if you took the most serious people and made their GPT searches public, a lot of people will learn because the problem of GPT is now it'll make the people with great questions do well, versus people who are looking for basic answers.

莱尼，我经常想知道，如果你让最认真的人公开他们的 GPT 搜索，很多人都会学到东西，因为 GPT 现在的问题是，它会让那些有伟大问题的人做得很好，而不是那些正在寻找基本答案的人。

So I think the world is going to be unfair to people who will ask great questions.

所以我认为这个世界对于那些提出好问题的人来说是不公平的。

Well, I got to ask you, is there any advice you have for asking great questions that has helped you in your work and career and life?

好吧，我想问你，对于提出对你的工作、职业和生活有帮助的好问题，你有什么建议吗？

Whenever somebody has many choices and they make the right choice in whatever domain they have.

每当有人有很多选择时，他们就会在自己拥有的任何领域做出正确的选择。

For example, let's say you could hire anybody but you hired great people, or let's say you could have married anybody, but you married a great person and so on and so forth.

例如，假设你可以雇用任何人，但你雇用了伟大的人，或者假设你可以与任何人结婚，但你嫁给了一个伟大的人，等等。

Everybody has many choices to make.

每个人都有很多选择要做。

How do they make choices for that domain of expertise?

他们如何针对该专业领域做出选择？

And I think that is the most, and many times they're not going to be able to explain how they make great choices.

我认为这是最多的，很多时候他们无法解释他们如何做出伟大的选择。

They'll have to really go into that because they don't really have their mental models figured out.

他们必须真正深入研究这个问题，因为他们还没有真正弄清楚自己的心智模型。

They cannot articulate, they cannot coach, they cannot explain.

他们无法表达、无法指导、无法解释。

But if you can figure out how they make great decisions in general, in whatever domain of work they're doing, you'll find many interesting insights coming over there.

但如果你能弄清楚他们一般是如何做出重大决策的，无论他们在做什么领域，你都会发现许多有趣的见解。

The other good question to ask is about second order thinking.

另一个要问的好问题是关于二阶思维。

What do they think will happen to the world and why did they come to that conclusion?

他们认为世界会发生什么？他们为什么得出这个结论？

And you see that full chain of thoughts is very powerful.

你会发现完整的思想链非常强大。

For example, second order thinking is known to be the most powerful trait to predict the success of somebody.

例如，众所周知，二阶思维是预测某人成功的最有力特征。

But I often wonder what happened in the childhood of people who became great at second order thinking.

但我经常想知道那些擅长二阶思维的人的童年发生了什么。

And that question is not fully discovered or discussed yet.

这个问题还没有被完全发现或讨论。

And I've found some loose examples such as if you played strategy games or only physical games as a strong correlation to building

我发现了一些松散的例子，例如如果你玩策略游戏或只玩物理游戏，那么与建筑有很强的相关性

So rigor came from physical games, but second order thinking came from playing strategy games as a kid.

因此，严谨性来自于物理游戏，但二阶思维则来自于小时候玩策略游戏。

And if you had both, you could do really well in general because you have discipline and second order thinking together.

如果你两者兼而有之，那么你总体上就能做得很好，因为你同时拥有纪律和二阶思维。

Then did you ever have an exercise of looking at history?

那么你有没有练习过观察历史呢？

For example, one of the things I recommend for parents to do with their kids, I call it the ‘Whyfi school’, is ask them one ‘why’ question every meal and let them come back with answers the next day.

例如，我建议父母与孩子一起做的一件事，我称之为“Whyfi学校”，就是每顿饭问他们一个“为什么”问题，然后让他们第二天带着答案回来。

For example, “Why do humans wear jewelry” and ”Why is something a certain way?”

例如，“人类为什么佩戴珠宝”和“为什么某件事是某种方式？”

And let them go into the full depth of history and find out.

让他们深入历史的深处去寻找答案。

Why is it so expensive to advertise in the Super Bowl?

为什么超级碗的广告费这么贵？

And if you train them on why, they evolve at a very different rate because how, what are the questions which do not evolve at a much higher rate, because ‘why’ is the deep question and it breaks a lot of things in your head.

如果你训练他们为什么，他们会以非常不同的速度发展，因为如何、什么问题不会以更高的速度发展，因为“为什么”是一个深刻的问题，它打破了你头脑中的很多东西。

Or another question about origin stories that “How did elevators come into being?” and "what made your phones happen?”

或者另一个关于起源故事的问题“电梯是如何产生的？”以及“是什么让你的手机诞生了？”

“What made microphones happen and why is it called microphone and why is it called a phone?”

“是什么让麦克风出现了？为什么它被称为麦克风？为什么它被称为手机？”

And if you just want to go into this depth, you'll see people build second order thinking automatically because either you go into history and see second order thinking coming along with that, or you play games that train your brain for second order thinking with the spectrum.

如果你只是想深入了解，你会看到人们自动建立二阶思维，因为要么你进入历史并看到二阶思维随之而来，要么你玩游戏来训练你的大脑进行二阶思维的频谱。

But that's a broad range of things that I think people should be asking.

但我认为人们应该问的问题范围很广。

I'm looking forward to Kunal’s children's raising book, like a book to help you raise kids.

我很期待库纳尔的育儿书，就像一本可以帮助你养育孩子的书。

I don't have kids so I can run experiments on everybody else's kids.

我没有孩子，所以我可以对其他人的孩子进行实验。

I feel like with these questions, I think the rule has to be you can't just ask ChatGPT for the answer if the block it-

我觉得对于这些问题，我认为规则必须是，如果阻止它，你不能只向 ChatGPT 询问答案 -

I think you should encourage it because we have to assume that we are going to be all co-pilots of AI now.

我认为你应该鼓励它，因为我们必须假设我们现在都将成为人工智能的副驾驶。

What you have to do is derive the second order insight that, “Okay, this is true.

你要做的就是得出二阶洞察力：“好吧，这是真的。

Where is the similarity of this in somewhere else?”

这与其他地方的相似之处在哪里？”

Give me an example of this found somewhere else, and so on and so forth.

给我一个在其他地方找到的例子，等等。

I have just a couple more questions before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，我还有几个问题。

First, let's visit the contrarian corner.

首先，我们来参观一下逆向角落。

I'm curious.

我很好奇。

What's something that you believe that very few other people would agree with you on and why do you hold that belief?

有什么事情是您认为很少有人会同意您的观点的？您为什么持有这种信念？

Our understanding of wealth and what wealth is, is flawed.

我们对财富以及财富是什么的理解是有缺陷的。

To me, wealth is nothing but storage of energy.

对我来说，财富只不过是能量的储存。

And therefore the reason wealth is not zero sum is because energy is, and we are just finding ways to convert energy to our advantage.

因此，财富不是零和的原因是因为能源是零和的，而我们只是在寻找将能源转化为我们的优势的方法。

We are the only species that has managed to convert all forms of energy to our advantage.

我们是唯一能够将各种形式的能量转化为对我们有利的物种。

Kinetic energy and fuel and sound and solar.

动能、燃料、声音和太阳能。

No other species has done this.

没有其他物种做到过这一点。

And therefore, since the industrial revolution, our wealth has gone like this and continues to be like that.

因此，自工业革命以来，我们的财富一直如此，并将继续如此。

AI and nuclear fission and all this stuff will kind of take us right there.

人工智能和核裂变以及所有这些东西都会把我们带到那里。

So I have a strong view that we will never, never have equality of wealth.

所以我强烈认为我们永远永远不会实现财富平等。

In fact, chasing that is actually a bad idea.

事实上，追求这一点实际上是一个坏主意。

But if you let people do well and chase wealth, they have enough wealth for everybody else and we could help a lot of people out.

但如果你让人们做得好并追逐财富，他们就有足够的财富供其他人使用，我们可以帮助很多人摆脱困境。

And I think it's complicated because we can have all these democratic arguments that wealth is concentrated and all that, but that's the physics of wealth.

我认为这很复杂，因为我们可以有所有这些民主论点，即财富集中等等，但这就是财富的物理学。

You change these mediums, companies, countries.

你改变了这些媒介、公司、国家。

To me, wealth is nothing but an entropic complexity that'll keep changing its form and shape.

对我来说，财富只不过是一种熵的复杂性，会不断改变其形式和形状。

You can keep fighting it or accept its physics and reap the benefit of that physics.

你可以继续对抗它，或者接受它的物理原理并获得该物理原理的好处。

I think Elon had this interesting point that wealth is just a database where everyone's wealth I guess is just a row in the database and here's how much everyone has and you're just transferring numbers around and that's the whole economy.

我认为埃隆有一个有趣的观点，即财富只是一个数据库，我想每个人的财富只是数据库中的一行，这是每个人拥有的数量，你只是传递数字，这就是整个经济。

No, but the nuance that is important is that you can actually increase the database size infinitely.

不，但重要的细微差别是您实际上可以无限增加数据库大小。

And therefore his vision of the sun's energy, if you really convert all the energy to our advantage, the amount of wealth we will create for humans is disproportionate.

因此他对太阳能的设想是，如果真的把所有的能源都转化为对我们有利的话，我们将为人类创造的财富是不成比例的。

And all the species that are managed to collaborate and cooperate to create wealth, for example, let's define wealth as biomass.

例如，所有能够通过协作和合作来创造财富的物种，让我们将财富定义为生物质。

So let's say ants and bacteria and humans are the only few things that have the largest biomass on this planet because we figured out how to make energy work to our advantage.

因此，假设蚂蚁、细菌和人类是地球上仅有的少数拥有最大生物量的生物，因为我们找到了如何让能源对我们有利。

I love all the directions we've gone.

我喜欢我们走过的所有方向。

Probably the last question, is there a story of failure in your career that would be interesting to share?

可能是最后一个问题，您的职业生涯中是否有一个值得分享的失败故事？

Something that taught you an important lesson?

有什么事情给你上了重要的一课吗？

I think there is no escape for anybody who's done anything in life, not failed a lot, like every day, every thing.

我认为，对于任何在生活中做过任何事、没有经历过很多次失败的人来说，就像每一天、每件事一样，他们是无法逃脱的。

But I would say that many initiatives, many products, companies that I've built have absolutely failed, hirings that have failed, trust broken, betrayals.

但我想说的是，我建立的许多举措、许多产品、公司都绝对失败了，招聘失败了，信任被破坏了，背叛了。

So I think there is no end to it.

所以我认为它是没有尽头的。

But I think entrepreneurs have this weird ability to forget about failures and almost turn that into a lesson that you hold, and you forget the story.

但我认为企业家有一种奇怪的能力，可以忘记失败，几乎把它变成你所拥有的教训，然后你就忘记了这个故事。

For example, COVID has literally no memory for me.

例如，新冠病毒对我来说几乎没有记忆。

I just don't remember what was COVID.

我只是不记得新冠病毒是什么了。

It's just a blank in my head right now.

现在我脑子里一片空白。

And I think that humans are great at forgetting the memory of failure, but remember the lesson from failure.

而且我认为人类很擅长忘记失败的记忆，但记住失败的教训。

But I think I'm constantly learning, and I often believe that life is too short to make all our mistakes ourselves.

但我认为我在不断学习，而且我常常相信生命太短暂，我们不能自己犯所有的错误。

So we should be learning from other people's failures as well.

因此，我们也应该从其他人的失败中学习。

And a lot of times we don't do that because we believe that we are special, nothing like that will happen to us, but as humans, we should be learning.

很多时候我们不这样做，因为我们相信我们很特别，类似的事情不会发生在我们身上，但作为人类，我们应该学习。

I would say that my life started from a failure.

我想说，我的人生是从失败开始的。

My family went through a severe financial crisis.

我的家庭经历了严重的财务危机。

I had to start working from age 15 and I feel till date, I'm just trying to escape that failure that happened in the family.

我必须从 15 岁开始工作，到目前为止，我觉得我只是想逃避家庭中发生的失败。

So I think many of us are just fighting that initial large failure that we've had and don't want to be anywhere near that.

所以我认为我们中的许多人只是在与最初的巨大失败作斗争，并且不想再接近这样的失败。

And although we are significantly far away from that, the feeling is exactly that.

尽管我们离这个目标还很远，但感觉就是这样。

Circles back to one of our first few questions about the chips on shoulders driving a lot of motivation.

回到我们最初的几个问题之一，关于肩上的筹码驱动了很多动力。

There's this phrase, ”Chips on shoulders drive chips in pockets.”

有这样一句话：“肩上的筹码带动口袋里的筹码”。

Is there anything more you want to share about that early challenge you ran into or is that something you've shared often?

关于您早期遇到的挑战，您还有什么想分享的吗？或者您经常分享什么？

No, I mean I've shared that enough, but I used to not talk about it before because I used to think that I would get some sympathy for that.

不，我的意思是我已经分享得足够多了，但我以前不谈论它，因为我曾经认为我会因此得到一些同情。

And only in the recent past did I speak about it because I want people to realize that I was not some gifted kid who had some rich parents who made me extraordinarily bright and put me in great schools and colleges and I made my way through that.

直到最近我才谈到这件事，因为我想让人们意识到我不是一个有天赋的孩子，有一些富有的父母，他们让我变得非常聪明，让我进入了很好的学校和大学，我也成功地做到了这一点。

I used to not talk about it earlier because there's a lot of tendency to give sympathy to those people who say, "Oh, this guy had struggled."

我以前很少谈论这件事，因为人们很容易对那些说“哦，这个家伙很挣扎”的人表示同情。

And I don't want to be given any credit for playing that poverty card or this card or struggling for food card.

我不想因为打贫困卡或这张卡或为食物卡而奋斗而获得任何荣誉。

There are so many people in the world who've done extraordinarily well because they had the gift of struggle.

世界上有很多人因为拥有奋斗的天赋而取得了非凡的成就。

And I often tell people that this is the biggest curse of successful parents, that that's the only gift they'll not be able to give to their kids, the gift of struggle that they had.

我经常告诉人们，这是成功父母最大的诅咒，这是他们无法给予孩子的唯一礼物，即他们所拥有的奋斗礼物。

We have a kid, he's eight months now, and so I'm trying to figure out the balance of struggle versus making life easy and great, a new challenge for me to figure out.

我们有一个孩子，他现在八个月大了，所以我试图找出挣扎与让生活变得轻松美好之间的平衡，这对我来说是一个新的挑战。

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else, Kunal, you wanted to share or leave listeners with?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，Kunal，您还有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？

Well, I would love for the listeners from different fields of product to share what you're learning without being fearful of the judgment of your peers, because there are many, many people who are learning only because you share your evolution and your thoughts.

好吧，我希望来自不同产品领域的听众能够分享您正在学习的内容，而不必担心同行的判断，因为有很多很多人正在学习只是因为您分享了您的进化和想法。

And I believe that a lot more could be contributing.

我相信还有更多的事情可以做出贡献。

And a lot of your listeners are really bright people.

你的很多听众都是非常聪明的人。

If they all shared, many people from many places in the world would learn and achieve some amount of success.

如果他们都分享，世界各地的许多人都会学习并取得一定的成功。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

It keeps changing a lot, but my books are usually around understanding human behavior.

它不断变化，但我的书通常是围绕理解人类行为的。

And I keep changing based on the person, but I think it's the biggest subject.

我不断地根据人而改变，但我认为这是最大的主题。

All our customers, all our investors, all our employees, all our relationships are all humans.

我们所有的客户、我们所有的投资者、我们所有的员工、我们所有的关系都是人。

And the subject that we are weakest on is human behavior.

我们最薄弱的科目是人类行为。

We are playing life on extremely hard mode if you don't learn human behavior.

如果你不学习人类行为，我们就会在极其困难的模式下玩生活。

So I would say that's one thing.

所以我想说这是一回事。

The second thing, evolutionary biology, teaches a lot about how species evolve and how they make decisions and what are the core motivations that drive everybody.

第二件事，进化生物学，教了很多关于物种如何进化、它们如何做出决定以及驱动每个人的核心动机是什么。

So that's another one I would recommend.

这是我推荐的另一件事。

And I don't want to make a recommendation because I can barely finish a book to be honest.

我不想提出推荐，因为老实说我几乎无法读完一本书。

So I believe in drifting and getting deeper into topics.

所以我相信随波逐流并深入主题。

So understanding the topics versus trying to say, give me these three books and I'm going to be good.

因此，理解主题而不是试图说，给我这三本书，我就会做得很好。

And the last one I would say, is that anything that can make you learn something about their journey versus their success.

我要说的最后一点是，任何能让你了解他们的旅程和成功的东西。

So sometimes autobiographies are too celebratory in some ways, but if you can just kind of understand how…

所以有时自传在某些方面过于庆祝，但如果你能理解如何......

any book that can teach you about how people recover from a setback in great detail is a great book to learn from.

任何一本能够详细教你如何从挫折中恢复过来的书都是一本值得学习的好书。

An audience member on Twitter actually asked a similar question along these lines, if there's one book that you could read over and over and over, what would that be?

Twitter 上的一位观众实际上也问过类似的问题，如果有一本书你可以一遍又一遍地读，那会是什么？

I absolutely don't believe in reading over and over because I believe that we are evolving.

我绝对不相信一遍又一遍地阅读，因为我相信我们正在不断发展。

You might discover the same stuff coming from different books and you would say, "Oh, I can categorize this in my brain again and again."

你可能会在不同的书中发现相同的内容，然后你会说：“哦，我可以在大脑中一遍又一遍地对其进行分类。”

But I think we tend to become believers, and it becomes too religious if you repeat.

但我认为我们往往会成为信徒，如果你重复，那就太宗教化了。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

I love Oppenheimer because of the struggles and Nolan's craft of making the movies, but nothing in the recent past that I feel is right up there.

我喜欢奥本海默，因为他的挣扎和诺兰的电影制作技巧，但在最近的过去，我觉得没有什么是正确的。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?

您有最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题吗？

I like to ask a hypothetical second order thinking question.

我喜欢问一个假设的二阶思维问题。

For example, if everybody who has taken a COVID vaccine dies tonight, what happens in 12 months from now?

例如，如果所有接种了新冠疫苗的人今晚都去世了，那么 12 个月后会发生什么？

Can you explain the world- from what happens to money, what happens to law?

你能解释一下这个世界吗——从金钱的变化到法律的变化？

What happens to the stock market?

股市会发生什么？

What happens to the order of things?

事情的顺序会发生什么变化？

And I would say less than 10% of really smart people can have really good answers.

我想说，真正聪明的人中只有不到 10% 能够得到真正好的答案。

So it tells you how good they are at second order thinking.

所以它告诉你他们的二阶思维能力有多强。

But the questions can keep changing.

但问题可能会不断变化。

For example, if you said that, what if arranged marriages were banned in India, and you got capital punishment for doing arranged marriages?

比如说，如果你这么说，如果印度禁止包办婚姻，而你因包办婚姻而被判处死刑怎么办？

Like some absurd scenarios, but then what happens after that?

就像一些荒唐的场景，但之后会发生什么呢？

Not to give away your secret sauce, but what do you look for in an answer that gives you a sense there?

并不是要泄露你的秘密武器，而是你希望在答案中寻找什么，让你有这样的感觉？

The range of things that they could go into and think about- if this happens, B happens and then C happens.

他们可以深入思考的一系列事情——如果这种情况发生，B 发生，然后 C 发生。

And just so people understand, when you're talking about second order thinking, what's the simplest way to describe that concept?

正如人们所理解的那样，当您谈论二阶思维时，描述该概念的最简单方法是什么？

I think the simplest way to think about this is being able to correctly judge the butterfly effect of an event as close as possible.

我认为思考这个问题最简单的方法就是能够尽可能正确地判断事件的蝴蝶效应。

For example, a lot of people in the stock market use that to say how stocks will go up and down.

例如，很多股市人士都用这个来表示股票将如何上涨和下跌。

There's something that has happened in the market.

市场上发生了一些事情。

“Oh, there is a war now with Russia, then what happens to the market?”

“哦，现在与俄罗斯发生了战争，那么市场会发生什么？”

Can you be good at predicting that?

你能擅长预测吗？

But in everything in life, if this happens, a lot of people hate this because it's very taxing to the brain.

但在生活中的一切事情中，如果发生这种情况，很多人都会讨厌这种情况，因为这对大脑来说非常费力。

The brain absolutely hates second order thinking unless you've trained your brain with second order thinking all the time that it looks forward to it.

大脑绝对讨厌二阶思维，除非你一直用二阶思维训练你的大脑，让它期待它。

So you convert this into a hate versus a reward cycle, and that comes with probably doing it early on in your life.

因此，你将其转化为仇恨与奖励的循环，这可能是在你生命的早期就这样做的。

Later on, people hate doing second order thinking.

后来，人们讨厌做二阶思维。

That sounds like a lot of work for the brain.

听起来大脑需要做很多工作。

Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered and that you really love?

您有最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

I'm looking forward to my Vision Pro coming soon.

我期待我的 Vision Pro 尽快上市。

It's a future favorite product.

这是未来最受欢迎的产品。

We have actually Boz from Meta coming on as the next guest in my recording.

实际上，来自 Meta 的 Boz 将作为我的录音中的下一位嘉宾出现。

I'm not sure when they come out in sequence, but we're going to talk about his thoughts.

我不确定它们什么时候按顺序出现，但我们将讨论他的想法。

The most fascinating thing that I saw was Zuck talking about the utility of Meta being better than Vision Pro and their product.

我看到的最有趣的事情是 Zuck 谈论 Meta 的实用性比 Vision Pro 及其产品更好。

And that's exactly going to work well for Apple because when you try to make the product more utilitarian, it loses status.

这对苹果来说确实很有效，因为当你试图让产品变得更加实用时，它就会失去地位。

And if you study animals, you realize that the one which gets the highest mating success is the one which can demonstrate the ability to waste resources and not be very efficient with resources.

如果你研究动物，你就会意识到，交配成功率最高的动物往往表现出浪费资源的能力，而且对资源的利用效率不高。

And therefore people who are known to buy a product that is wasteful will actually own higher status.

因此，那些购买浪费产品的人实际上会拥有更高的地位。

And I think Zuck made it actually quite easy for Apple to demonstrate their superior positioning by saying that, "Oh, we are not as efficient, we are not as cheap.

我认为扎克实际上让苹果很容易地展示了他们的优越定位，他说：“哦，我们没有那么高效，我们没有那么便宜。

Just continue to blow minds even on our lightning round.

即使在我们的闪电回合中，也要继续让人们惊叹不已。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends and family, find useful in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回来与朋友和家人分享，并发现它对工作或生活有用？

It's not a favorite motto, but I think we truly are transient and we are very lucky to have this life that we have and we have to make the most out of it.

这不是一个最喜欢的座右铭，但我认为我们确实是短暂的，我们非常幸运能够拥有这样的生活，我们必须充分利用它。

And all these struggles will mean nothing.

而所有这些挣扎都将毫无意义。

I often tell people that you should wish for your life to be so great that you have collected the highest amount of content when you are old, and you have no end to the stories that you can talk about.

我经常告诉人们，你应该希望自己的生活如此美好，以至于当你老了的时候，你收集的内容最多，你有说不完的故事。

That reminds me of a book I once read that really had an impact on me where somebody was trying to make a movie of their life and the producer was like, "There's nothing.

这让我想起我曾经读过的一本书，这本书对我产生了真正的影响，其中有人试图将他们的生活拍成一部电影，而制片人则说：“什么都没有。

You have not done enough interesting things."

你做的有趣的事情还不够多。”

And so he turned his lens of what to do in life, by thinking what would make a great story.

因此，他把目光转向了生活中该做什么，思考什么才能成为一个伟大的故事。

And so he just started to do a a great story, something where you overcome challenges and achieve something you wanted.

所以他开始创作一个伟大的故事，讲述你克服挑战并实现你想要的东西的故事。

And so that became his life motto.

于是这成为了他的人生座右铭。

“I'm going to try hard things and overcome them.

“我会尝试困难的事情并克服它们。

And that's going to be my life.”

这将是我的生活。”

I'll link to that book in the show notes.

我将在节目笔记中链接到该书。

Final question, do you have this series on Twitter that you call Monday Motivations?

最后一个问题，你在 Twitter 上有这个你称之为周一动机的系列吗？

I'm curious what's motivating you these days?

我很好奇这些天是什么在激励你？

I find the internet is filled with all these people trying to give fake motivation and make money off that stuff.

我发现互联网上充斥着试图提供虚假动机并通过这些东西赚钱的人。

And it's almost like a drug for people to feel, ”Oh my God, there's motivation, I'm going to do well.”

这几乎就像一种药物，让人们感觉“天哪，有动力，我会做得很好。”

I just wanted to remind people that all success comes from an extraordinary amount of pain and struggle and hard work, and there is no shortcut to anything material coming in life.

我只是想提醒人们，所有的成功都来自于巨大的痛苦、挣扎和努力，生活中任何物质的实现都没有捷径。

And so the Monday motivation post comes as the anti-motivation post because the world is filled with...

因此，周一的励志帖子成为了反励志帖子，因为世界充满了……

I believe that the biggest profit making scheme that I've seen in recent times is to tell people to love themselves and they'll pay you money for saying that.

我相信我最近看到的最大的赚钱计划就是告诉人们要爱自己，他们会因为你这么说而付钱给你。

And I think the best way to love yourself is to keep evolving.

我认为爱自己的最好方法就是不断发展。

So my motivation comes from evolution, connecting dots, solving harder problems than I've solved in the past.

所以我的动力来自于进化、连接点、解决比我过去解决过的更难的问题。

And I think life is ultimately a game where you want to feel that your levels have changed and your skills have changed constantly.

我认为生活最终是一场游戏，你想要感觉到你的水平已经改变，你的技能也在不断改变。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and follow up on some of this stuff?

如果人们想要联系并跟进其中一些事情，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

You can find me on social media.

你可以在社交媒体上找到我。

Look for Kunal Shah, you'll find me everywhere.

寻找库纳尔·沙阿，你到处都会找到我。

I usually have a different personality on each social media.

我通常在每个社交媒体上都有不同的个性。

And in terms of being helpful, keep tagging me on interesting things that you discover that gave you that moment of, ”Oh my God, I did not know this.”

在提供帮助方面，不断地给我贴上你发现的有趣的事情的标签，这些事情给了你“天哪，我不知道这个”的那一刻。

Kunal, again, thank you so much for being here.

Kunal，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Thank you so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

78:34Thank you so much for listening.

78:34非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。