Growth tactics from OpenAI and Stripe’s first marketer | Krithika Shankarraman

Krithika Shankarraman: It seems like there's a playbook for everything, there is a framework for everything, but the reality is you have to spend the hours and the time to really understand your customer.

Krithika Shankarraman：似乎一切都有一本剧本，一切都有一个框架，但现实是你必须花费大量时间来真正了解你的客户。

Lenny Rachitsky: You were the first marketing hire at OpenAI.

Lenny Rachitsky：您是 OpenAI 的第一位营销人员。

I believe ChatGPT is the fastest-growing product in history.

我相信 ChatGPT 是历史上增长最快的产品。

Let me ask you this.

让我问你这个。

A lot of people might be hearing like, "Oh, ChatGPT." It's like, why do you need marketing?

很多人可能会听到“哦，ChatGPT”。就像，为什么需要营销？

Krithika Shankarraman: Everyone knew of ChatGPT, but when you clicked one zoom level further, the thing that came up was, "I don't know what to use it for." The work of marketing ended up becoming creating this sort of use case epiphany where people could say, "I had no idea ChatGPT can do that." A lot of marketing metrics tend to be vanity metrics about the number of clicks that you got, number of views, number of impressions.

Krithika Shankarraman：每个人都知道 ChatGPT，但是当您进一步单击一个缩放级别时，出现的问题是“我不知道该用它做什么”。营销工作最终变成了创造这种用例顿悟，人们可能会说，“我不知道 ChatGPT 可以做到这一点。”许多营销指标往往是关于点击次数、浏览次数、展示次数的虚荣指标。

I think those are all bullshit numbers.

我认为这些都是胡说八道的数字。

What is that experience that you want your customers to come away with when they interact with your brand?

您希望客户在与您的品牌互动时获得什么样的体验？

Lenny Rachitsky: If your advice is, "Don't just copy what other companies do," what should people be doing?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你的建议是“不要只是复制其他公司的做法”，那么人们应该做什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: Put together a four-step process that has served me pretty well.

Krithika Shankarraman：整理了一个四步流程，对我来说效果很好。

The first step here is...

这里的第一步是......

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Krithika Shankarraman.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Krithika Shankarraman。

Krithika was the first marketing hire and VP of marketing at OpenAI, the first marketing hire at Stripe where she was the only marketing person for three years.

Krithika 是 OpenAI 的第一位营销人员和营销副总裁，也是 Stripe 的第一位营销人员，她是三年来唯一的营销人员。

She was also an early marketing leader at Retool and at Dropbox.

她还是 Retool 和 Dropbox 的早期营销领导者。

She also did marketing for Android at Google.

她还曾在 Google 从事 Android 市场营销工作。

Currently, she is executive in residence at Thrive Capital where she supports their portfolio and founders on all things marketing and helps hire early marketing leaders for their startups.

目前，她是 Thrive Capital 的常驻高管，为他们的投资组合和创始人提供所有营销方面的支持，并帮助他们的初创公司聘请早期营销领导者。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, we talk through all of the biggest lessons that she has learned about how to market your product from her time at OpenAI, Stripe, Retool, Dropbox and other places, including her four-step diagnostic approach to marketing, her anti-playbook playbook, what B2B companies can learn from consumer marketing, career advice for people looking to get into marketing, and also just what people that don't want to get into marketing should know about marketing to be successful.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了她在 OpenAI、Stripe、Retool、Dropbox 和其他地方学到的关于如何营销产品的所有最重要的经验教训，包括她的营销四步诊断方法、她的反剧本策略、B2B 公司可以从消费者营销中学到什么、为想要进入营销领域的人提供的职业建议，以及不想进入营销领域的人应该了解哪些营销知识才能取得成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: A big thank you to Kevin Garcia and Kelly Sims for suggesting questions and stories to get into.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Kevin Garcia 和 Kelly Sims 提出的问题和故事。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of world-class products, including Superhuman, Notion, Linear, Perplexity, and Granola and more.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的大量世界级产品，包括 Super human、Notion、Linear、Perplexity 和 Granola 等。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Krithika Shankarraman.

接下来，我为您带来 Krithika Shankarraman。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要，Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台。

I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

我可以轻松地自行设置实验、解决问题并分析性能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 通过先进的统计方法（可以帮助您缩短实验时间）、可访问的 UI（可以更深入地了解性能）以及开箱即用的报告（可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期）来完成所有这些工作。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny, and 10 X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，并将实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's geteppo.com/lenny.

那是 geteppo.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Airtable ProductCentral, the unified system that brings your entire product org together in one place.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Airtable ProductCentral 为您带来，这是一个将您的整个产品组织聚集到一个地方的统一系统。

No more scattered tools.

不再需要分散的工具。

No more misaligned teams.

不再有错位的团队。

If you're like most product leaders, you're tired of constant context switching between tools.

如果您像大多数产品负责人一样，您就会厌倦工具之间不断的上下文切换。

That's why Airtable built ProductCentral after decades of working with world-class product companies.

这就是 Airtable 在与世界一流产品公司合作数十年后创建 ProductCentral 的原因。

Think of it as mission control for your entire product organization.

将其视为整个产品组织的任务控制。

Unlike rigid point solutions, ProductCentral powers everything from resourcing to voice of customer, to road mapping, to launch execution.

与严格的单点解决方案不同，ProductCentral 为从资源到客户声音、路线图到启动执行的一切提供支持。

And because it's built on Airtable's no-code platform, you can customize every workflow to match exactly how your team works.

由于它建立在 Airtable 的无代码平台上，因此您可以自定义每个工作流程以完全匹配您团队的工作方式。

No limitations.

没有限制。

No compromises.

没有妥协。

Ready to see it in action?

准备好看看它的实际效果了吗？

Head to airtable.com/lenny to book a demo.

前往airtable.com/lenny 预订演示。

That's airtable.com/lenny.

这是airtable.com/lenny。

Krithika, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Krithika，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Krithika Shankarraman: Thank you so much for having me.

Krithika Shankarraman：非常感谢您邀请我。

I'm excited to be chatting.

我很高兴能聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you were an early and the first marketing hire at some of the most iconic companies in the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你是世界上一些最具标志性的公司的早期也是第一位营销人员。

What I want to do with our chat today is basically go through a lot of these companies that you've worked at and see what lessons we can extract about your time leading marketing at these companies.

今天我想通过我们的聊天基本上了解一下您曾经工作过的许多公司，看看我们可以从您在这些公司领导营销的时间中汲取哪些经验教训。

And I want to start with OpenAI.

我想从 OpenAI 开始。

No big deal.

没什么大不了的。

You were the first marketing hire at OpenAI.

您是 OpenAI 的第一位营销人员。

Things seem to have gone really well over there.

那里的事情似乎进展得很顺利。

I believe ChatGPT is the fastest-growing product in history.

我相信 ChatGPT 是历史上增长最快的产品。

Does that resonate?

这引起共鸣吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: It does.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：确实如此。

Not that I can take credit for it.

这并不是说我可以因此而获得功劳。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, we'll talk about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我们会讨论这个。

Either way, nice job.

不管怎样，干得好。

Let me ask you this.

让我问你这个。

A lot of people might be hearing like, "Oh, ChatGPT." It's like, why do you need marketing?

很多人可能会听到“哦，ChatGPT”。就像，为什么需要营销？

It's like the most magical thing in the history of the world.

这就像世界历史上最神奇的事情。

How much value does anything add to making it as successful?

任何事情能够为其成功增加多少价值？

Can you just talk about just the value that a marketing person adds to a product like that that's already incredible?

您能谈谈营销人员为这样的产品添加的价值吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

When you think about all of the different stages of the funnel, awareness was clearly not the problem that ChatGPT or OpenAI had.

当你考虑漏斗的所有不同阶段时，意识显然不是 ChatGPT 或 OpenAI 遇到的问题。

Everyone knew of ChatGPT, but when you clicked one zoom level further, the thing that came up was, "I don't know what to use it for.

每个人都知道 ChatGPT，但是当您进一步单击一个缩放级别时，出现的问题是：“我不知道该用它做什么。

I don't know what it replaces.

我不知道它取代了什么。

Should I be using search for this?

我应该使用搜索来解决这个问题吗？

Should I be using ChatGPT for this?

我应该为此使用 ChatGPT 吗？

How can it even help me?" And so the work of marketing ended up becoming, creating this sort of use case epiphany where people could say, "I had no idea ChatGPT can do that.

它还能帮我什么忙？”因此，营销工作最终变成了创建这种用例顿悟，人们可以说：“我不知道 ChatGPT 可以做到这一点。

And yeah, maybe I should be using it for X, Y, Z reason in my own life." And so I think you have to be very diagnostic in terms of what can marketing be doing to help, rather than just going off of the typical top of funnel, and then middle of funnel and conversion-oriented tactics that end up being in a playbook.

是的，也许我应该在自己的生活中出于 X、Y、Z 的原因使用它。”因此，我认为你必须非常善于诊断营销可以提供哪些帮助，而不是仅仅脱离典型的漏斗顶部，然后是漏斗中间和最终出现​​在剧本中的以转化为导向的策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: So for folks that listen to this podcast, it's a lot of product managers, product builders.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于听这个播客的人来说，有很多产品经理、产品构建者。

A lot of them don't have a lot of experience with marketing.

他们中的许多人没有丰富的营销经验。

I think it's an important insight there of just, this is a thing marketing can help you with is helping people understand how to use your product, understand use cases, understand examples, things like that.

我认为这是一个重要的见解，营销可以帮助你帮助人们了解如何使用你的产品，了解用例，理解示例，诸如此类。

So I think as we go through this, I think this is useful for folks to understand of, here's what you may not be good at and may need marketing help with.

所以我认为，当我们经历这个过程时，我认为这对人们理解很有用，这就是你可能不擅长并且可能需要营销帮助的地方。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

When done right, product management and product marketing should be best friends, right?

如果做得好，产品管理和产品营销应该是最好的朋友，对吧？

And you are working together at every stage of product development.

你们在产品开发的每个阶段都在共同努力。

Rather than thinking of it as a handoff at the end of the conveyor belt when the product's been built, you sort of hand it off to marketing to take it out the door.

您不要将其视为产品制造完成后在传送带末端的交接，而是将其交给营销部门以将其带出大门。

If you can think of it as sort of a three-legged race from the very beginning of product development, then you go to market with the right thing in the first place.

如果您从产品开发一开始就可以将其视为三足竞赛，那么您首先就将正确的产品推向市场。

You get these insights from customers, you hear the language that they're using, which can be the sort of cheat code for how to message and position the product in market.

您可以从客户那里获得这些见解，您可以听到他们使用的语言，这可能是一种如何在市场上传达信息和定位产品的作弊代码。

And of course, there's a creativity angle on how to differentiate your product in the market, but ideally, you're doing that in lockstep with the product management side.

当然，如何使您的产品在市场上脱颖而出，需要从创意的角度进行，但理想情况下，您应该与产品管理方面保持同步。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other element of ChatGPT's marketing success, I know that you spent a lot of time on the enterprise side, is just consumerish marketing tactics for enterprisey products.

Lenny Rachitsky：ChatGPT 营销成功的另一个要素是针对企业产品的消费者营销策略，我知道您在企业方面花费了大量时间。

Can you just talk about that?

你能简单谈谈吗？

And it feels like that's emerging more and more just like consumer tactics for enterprise products.

感觉这越来越像企业产品的消费者策略。

Krithika Shankarraman: In typical organizations that I've been a part of and leading marketing for, the enterprise side of the house, the B2B side of the house usually fits the mold of demand generation where you're creating demand for the sales team and you're bringing new customers and prospects into the fold and into the orbit of the company.

Krithika Shankarraman：在我参与并领导营销的典型组织中，企业方面、B2B 方面通常符合需求生成的模式，在这种模式中，您为销售团队创造需求，并将新客户和潜在客户带入公司并进入公司轨道。

That again, was not the problem at OpenAI.

这又不是 OpenAI 的问题。

When we turned on the contact sales form for ChatGPT Enterprise, which was one of my first launches at the company, our lead volume 40 X-ed overnight.

当我们打开 ChatGPT Enterprise 的联系销售表单（这是我在公司首次推出的产品之一）时，我们的潜在客户量一夜之间增加了 40 倍。

It was unanticipated even beyond our wildest expectations.

这是出乎我们意料之外的，甚至超出了我们最疯狂的预期。

And so some of the things that I had to do are not typical to marketing at all.

因此，我必须做的一些事情对于营销来说根本不是典型的。

I sat down with ChatGPT and I coded up a Python script that ended up functioning as our first lead qualification, lead-scoring model.

我与 ChatGPT 坐下来，编写了一个 Python 脚本，最终成为我们的第一个潜在客户资格、潜在客户评分模型。

That was used in production for way too long, longer than I'd care to admit.

它在生产中使用的时间太长了，比我愿意承认的时间还要长。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so funny.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

I think about when ChatGPT first launched and OpenAI just launched, everyone was just like, "How will you make money?

我想当 ChatGPT 刚推出和 OpenAI 刚刚推出时，每个人都在想，“你将如何赚钱？

How do you make money with something like this chatbot that's pretty smart, but sort of not that smart?" I remember there's a video of Sam Altman being asked, "How do you make money with something like this?" And I don't know if you just saw this, he just like, "At some point we will ask ChatGPT, how do we make money?"

你如何利用像这个非常聪明但又不太聪明的聊天机器人这样的东西来赚钱呢？”我记得有一段视频萨姆·奥尔特曼被问到：“你如何用这样的东西赚钱？”我不知道你是否刚刚看到这个，他只是说，“在某个时候我们会问 ChatGPT，我们如何赚钱？”

Krithika Shankarraman: Yes.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

And I think the reality is it's not a solved problem.

我认为现实是这不是一个已解决的问题。

And a lot of folks, a lot of companies in the AI domain are trying to figure out the right pricing model.

人工智能领域的很多人、很多公司都在试图找出正确的定价模型。

And it's something that you've talked about in your newsletter and so on, but there is a value creation aspect to using AI that doesn't kind of neatly fit the mold of SaaS-based pricing or seed-based pricing, or even usage-based pricing.

这是您在时事通讯等中谈到的内容，但使用人工智能有一个价值创造方面，这并不完全符合基于 SaaS 的定价或基于种子的定价，甚至基于使用的定价的模式。

So, I think there are still some frontiers to figuring out where is the value, how do different types of organizations and companies and consumers find value?

所以，我认为弄清楚价值在哪里，不同类型的组织和公司以及消费者如何找到价值，仍然有一些前沿？

And again, it's not the typical sort of KPIs that you would typically try to optimize and maximize.

再说一遍，这不是您通常会尝试优化和最大化的典型 KPI。

Lenny Rachitsky: I will say, though, in terms of pricing, it feels like ChatGP, it works.

Lenny Rachitsky：不过，我想说的是，就定价而言，感觉就像 ChatGP，它很有效。

It's just like a monthly fee, talk to it up to a certain limit.

就好像月费一样，到一定限度就可以了。

It's wild to think back now, there was a sense, "We don't have no idea how will this make money." Now it seems so obvious.

现在回想起来真是疯狂，有一种感觉，“我们不知道这将如何赚钱。”现在看来是那么明显。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I remember Sam Altman just launched, "Here, check out this chat thing that we are trying with," and then the fastest product growth in history.

Lenny Rachitsky：我记得 Sam Altman 刚刚推出，“在这里，看看我们正在尝试的这个聊天工具”，然后是历史上最快的产品增长。

No big deal.

没什么大不了的。

I want to come back to this point you made about this playbook, anti-playbook kind of a thinking.

我想回到你对这个剧本、反剧本的思考的观点。

You kind of pointed out that with ChatGPT and OpenAI, there was no playbook, and you find that often people following playbooks don't work.

您有点指出，对于 ChatGPT 和 OpenAI，没有剧本，而且您发现遵循剧本的人通常不起作用。

Talk about that insight.

谈谈这个见解。

Krithika Shankarraman: In my current role in my career, I've spoken with a lot of founders, and typically, the founders reach out because I've worked at companies that they look up to and they're looking for that playbook.

Krithika Shankarraman：在我目前的职业生涯中，我与很多创始人进行过交谈，通常，创始人会主动联系我，因为我曾在他们尊敬的公司工作过，并且他们正在寻找剧本。

They're looking for, "Hey, just tell me how Stripe did it.

他们正在寻找，“嘿，告诉我 Stripe 是怎么做到的。

Tell me how Retool did it.

告诉我 Retool 是如何做到的。

Tell me how OpenAI did it." And I really hesitate to share any such detail because there was a combination of context, competitive landscape, and the overall sort of zeitgeist of when the company's operating, how the company's operating, that really adds a lot of nuance to what works in the market.

告诉我 OpenAI 是如何做到的。”我真的很犹豫是否要分享任何此类细节，因为背景、竞争格局以及公司何时运营、公司如何运营的整体时代精神相结合，这确实为市场中的运作方式增加了很多细微差别。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so doing the same things, like if you're just kind of copying the outcomes or the outputs of the strategy and trying to follow in the footsteps of the tactics, you're not paying enough attention to the inputs and, what were the variables and the deciding factors which led to that strategy in the first place?

Krithika Shankarraman：所以做同样的事情，比如如果你只是复制策略的结果或输出并试图追随策​​略的脚步，那么你就没有对输入给予足够的关注，以及首先导致该策略的变量和决定因素是什么？

So what I like to do is try to unpack more of a framework for how do you get to become more of a diagnostician to understand the right strategy or tactic in the first place, rather than saying, "How do you copy something that led someone else to success?" Because those criteria may not apply to you at all.

因此，我喜欢做的就是尝试解开更多的框架，让你如何成为一名诊断专家，从而首先理解正确的战略或策略，而不是说“你如何复制那些导致别人成功的东西？”因为这些标准可能根本不适用于您。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's follow that thread because everyone's like, "Goddamn, I need a play.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我们遵循这个思路，因为每个人都会说，“天哪，我需要一场比赛。

Just tell me how to do this." Okay, so there's no playbooks that you...

只要告诉我该怎么做就可以了。”好吧，所以你没有任何剧本可以...

If your advice is, "Don't just copy what other companies do that have done well," what should people be doing?

如果你的建议是，“不要只是复制其他公司做得很好的做法”，那么人们应该做什么？

How do they approach figuring out how to market their product and help it grow faster?

他们如何弄清楚如何营销他们的产品并帮助其更快增长？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

So I was an engineer before I became a marketer, and so I have brought a little bit of an engineer's framework to the marketing side of the house.

因此，在成为营销人员之前，我是一名工程师，因此我将一些工程师的框架引入了营销方面。

And so something that I've tried to do is put together a four-step process that has served me pretty well.

因此，我尝试做的事情就是整合一个四步流程，这对我来说非常有用。

The first step here is diagnosing.

这里的第一步是诊断。

So, diagnosing the actual problem.

因此，诊断实际问题。

Again, this usually means taking a zoom back when a founder comes and asks, "Hey, we really need to hire a demand gen leader.

同样，这通常意味着当创始人过来询问时，我们需要回顾一下，“嘿，我们真的需要聘请一位需求生成领导者。

Who do you know in your network that we should be thinking about?" And I'm like, "Let's talk about your funnel.

在你的网络中你认识谁是我们应该考虑的？”我说，“我们来谈谈你的漏斗吧。

Do you have a lot of people coming in at the top of the funnel?

有很多人从漏斗顶部进入吗？

And when they do come in at the top of the funnel and you start talking to them and having a sales conversation, how likely is it that you close them?

当他们确实进入渠道顶部并且您开始与他们交谈并进行销售对话时，您关闭他们的可能性有多大？

How likely is it that you win that deal?"

你赢得这笔交易的可能性有多大？”

Krithika Shankarraman: That usually tells you very astutely, do you have product market fit?

Krithika Shankarraman：这通常会非常敏锐地告诉你，你的产品适合市场吗？

Once you're already in the room and people are converting, you have found that problem statement that is critical to them that is hurting them the most, and your solution is resonating as a solve to that problem.

一旦你已经进入房间并且人们正在转换，你就会发现对他们来说至关重要的问题陈述对他们造成的伤害最大，并且你的解决方案作为该问题的解决方案引起了共鸣。

And so that means yes, probably throwing in more at the top of the funnel is a very good move to make at that time.

所以这意味着是的，在漏斗顶部投入更多资金可能是当时非常好的举措。

But on the other hand, if you say, "Yeah.

但另一方面，如果你说：“是的。

I mean, we get a lot of interest, but once they're in the room, they have a bunch of questions.

我的意思是，我们引起了很多兴趣，但是一旦他们进入房间，他们就会提出很多问题。

They're asking about, how do you compare to X competitor and Y competitor?

他们问的是，你与 X 竞争对手和 Y 竞争对手相比如何？

And why does it cost so much?" and et cetera, et cetera.

而且为什么要花这么多钱？”等等，等等。

Krithika Shankarraman: That probably means that there's more to be done in the product market fit zone rather than throwing in more at the top of the funnel because you have a leaky funnel at the bottom.

Krithika Shankarraman：这可能意味着在产品市场适合区域还有更多工作要做，而不是在漏斗顶部投入更多，因为漏斗底部有漏洞。

And so hiring a demand generator may be the worst thing that you can do versus thinking about more of a product marketer who's thinking about the competitive differentiation, the positioning, the sales enablement that gets more people through at the bottom.

因此，与更多地考虑产品营销人员相比，雇用需求生成者可能是最糟糕的事情，产品营销人员正在考虑竞争差异化、定位和销售支持，以吸引更多的人进入底层。

So that's that diagnostic step at the top.

这就是顶部的诊断步骤。

Krithika Shankarraman: Second to me is analyzing your competitors' approaches.

Krithika Shankarraman：对我来说第二件事是分析竞争对手的方法。

So to me, this is not about being super laser focused on your competition because that leads to these local maxima rather than thinking about face shift changes and breakthroughs that you can make as a company.

所以对我来说，这并不是要过度关注你的竞争对手，因为这会导致这些局部最大值，而不是考虑你作为一家公司可以实现的面貌转变和突破。

But when you analyze your competitors' approaches, evaluating what others do in the space can kind of give you a useful baseline and identify opportunities and gaps and niches that your company can take in instead.

但是，当您分析竞争对手的方法时，评估其他人在该领域所做的事情可以为您提供有用的基线，并确定您的公司可以利用的机会、差距和利基市场。

Krithika Shankarraman: And then, this is the critical step.

Krithika Shankarraman：然后，这是关键的一步。

The next one is you have to intentionally take a different path than what everyone else is doing.

下一个是你必须有意识地走一条与其他人不同的道路。

And so driving a strategy that sort of sets the company apart is really critically important.

因此，推动一项使公司脱颖而出的战略确实至关重要。

I think it's so core to the discipline of marketing, ensuring that differentiation in the market.

我认为这是营销学科的核心，确保市场的差异化。

And you don't have to go into a cave to come up with these ideas and strategies.

而且你不必进入洞穴才能想出这些想法和策略。

You can usually go and look at domains that are far outside of your own rather than your direct competitors and come up with some great ideas that you can cross apply and bring in and steal into your own domain or vertical instead.

您通常可以去看看那些远离您自己的领域而不是您的直接竞争对手的领域，并提出一些可以交叉应用、引入和窃取到您自己的领域或垂直领域的好主意。

Krithika Shankarraman: And then the final piece is just experiment, test, validate all of that, and then scale what works and kind of discard what doesn't.

Krithika Shankarraman：最后的部分就是实验、测试、验证所有这些，然后扩展有效的内容并丢弃无效的内容。

So you really have to have a lot of that ability to throw away work when you might have spent a ton of calories on this wonderful piece of content.

因此，当您可能在这篇精彩的内容上花费了大量卡路里时，您确实必须拥有大量扔掉工作的能力。

But if it's not working, don't double down on it.

但如果它不起作用，就不要加倍努力。

That bias of the sunk cause fallacy really comes into play, especially when you've poured your heart and soul into creating artifacts for marketing.

这种沉没原因谬误的偏见确实发挥了作用，尤其是当你全身心投入到为营销创造艺术品时。

So experiment, test, validate.

所以实验、测试、验证。

Give people that psychological safety to fail, especially your teams and organizations.

给予人们失败的心理安全感，尤其是你的团队和组织。

And then, yeah, once you find what works, really double down on it.

然后，是的，一旦你找到了有效的方法，就真的要加倍努力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me summarize what you just shared here.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我总结一下您刚才分享的内容。

So essentially if you think you're like, "I need help with marketing," or, "I have a problem and I think I need to hire a demand gen person or a paid growth person or a SEO person, or I don't know, content writer," something like that, before you do that, first of all, go through these four steps.

因此，本质上，如果您认为自己是这样的，“我需要营销方面的帮助”，或者“我遇到了问题，我认为我需要雇用一名需求生成人员或付费增长人员或搜索引擎优化人员，或者我不知道，内容作家”，类似这样的事情，在您这样做之前，首先，请完成这四个步骤。

Lenny Rachitsky: So step one is diagnose.

Lenny Rachitsky：第一步是诊断。

Spend time understanding what's the specific problem you want to solve, then analyze.

花时间了解您想要解决的具体问题是什么，然后进行分析。

This is so interesting, I've never heard it this way.

这太有趣了，我从来没有听说过这样的说法。

So then it's analyze what your competition is doing so that you can then, one, find inspiration and see where gaps exist.

因此，接下来就是分析你的竞争对手在做什么，这样你就可以，第一，找到灵感并看看存在差距。

And then it sounds like the core part of it is just make sure you differentiate and choose a different path versus just try to be the better thing or the cheaper thing.

听起来它的核心部分就是确保你与众不同并选择不同的路径，而不是仅仅尝试成为更好的东西或更便宜的东西。

And then the final piece is just like, "Okay, here's our path.

然后最后的作品就像是，“好吧，这就是我们的路。

Let's test run some small scale tests to see if this would work."

让我们进行一些小规模测试，看看这是否有效。”

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

I'm a marketer through and through now.

我现在是一名彻头彻尾的营销人员。

So I mean you got diagnose, D.

所以我的意思是你得到了诊断，D.

Analyze, A.

分析一下，A.

Take a different path, T.

走一条不同的路，T.

And experiment for the E.

并针对E进行实验。

So it's the DATE framework.

这就是 DATE 框架。

I've just kind of coined it.

我只是创造了它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，美丽。

Okay.

好的。

We got a new framework hot off the presses.

我们得到了一个刚刚印刷出来的新框架。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

DATE, okay.

日期，好的。

So with differentiation, what's your thoughts on saying you're just a lot better or a lot cheaper?

那么，对于差异化，您对于说自己更好还是更便宜有什么看法？

Krithika Shankarraman: Being cheaper is a race to the bottom, especially when you think about sort of scaling laws and how things are playing out.

Krithika Shankarraman：变得更便宜是一场逐底竞争，尤其是当你考虑某种规模法则以及事情如何发展时。

Every company is sort of becoming an AI company at this time.

此时每家公司都在某种程度上成为人工智能公司。

And so as models get cheaper and more capable, being cheaper is not going to be the thing that really is a durable approach in the market.

因此，随着模型变得更便宜、功能更强大，便宜并不是市场上真正持久的方法。

And I think in terms of doing things differently, it's not just for the sake of it.

我认为以不同的方式做事不仅仅是为了这样做。

I think it's really that novelty and that differentiation is something that people are craving for.

我认为这确实是人们所渴望的新颖性和差异化。

They're not looking for yet another tool in the market.

他们并不是在市场上寻找另一种工具。

They are looking for something that aligns with their values, aligns with what their goals are.

他们正在寻找符合他们价值观、符合他们目标的东西。

And so if you can be really crisp on understanding the user need, understanding what is the problem space in which they're operating, I think that one-two punch of a fantastic product experience, and then the marketing experience to match, can be a superpower for your company.

因此，如果您能够真正清晰地了解用户需求，了解他们所面临的问题空间，我认为一击二打的出色产品体验，以及与之相匹配的营销体验，可以成为您公司的超能力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So let's go through an example of a company you did this with, and then this may take us to another company you worked at in the stories there.

因此，让我们看一下您曾经工作过的公司的示例，然后这可能会将我们带到您在故事中工作过的另一家公司。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

One that comes to mind is definitely Retool.

我想到的肯定是 Retool。

Retool was very different from both my experiences at Stripe and at OpenAI because both Stripe and OpenAI, for better or for worse, were inbound companies, right?

Retool 与我在 Stripe 和 OpenAI 的经历非常不同，因为无论好坏，Stripe 和 OpenAI 都是入境公司，对吗？

There was so much latent demand that we were fighting off people breaking down the door trying to get to our products.

潜在需求如此之多，以至于我们不得不阻止那些破门而入试图获得我们产品的人。

With Retool, marketing was between the company and revenue.

对于 Retool，营销是在公司和收入之间进行的。

And we had fantastic product market fit with the enterprise space, with the developer community, but awareness was a challenge.

我们拥有与企业空间和开发者社区非常契合的产品市场，但意识是一个挑战。

And so how do we go out, not just wait inside of our house waiting for people to knock down the door, but rather step outside of our house and start introducing ourselves to the neighborhood?

那么我们如何出去，不只是在房子里等待人们敲门，而是走出我们的房子，开始向邻居介绍自己呢？

Krithika Shankarraman: So, thinking about outbound channels and building demand engines was the name of the game.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，思考出站渠道和构建需求引擎就是游戏的名称。

And here, one of the ways to think about that is, "Hey, should we just scale the paid marketing channels that we already have working for us?" And that's when the diagnostic really came into play, which is, what are the leads that are coming through the funnel?

在这里，思考这个问题的方法之一是，“嘿，我们是否应该扩大我们已经使用的付费营销渠道？”这就是诊断真正发挥作用的时候，也就是说，通过漏斗的线索是什么？

Are they turning into sales-qualified opportunities?

它们是否会转化为符合销售资格的机会？

What kind of pipeline are they driving?

他们正在驾驶什么样的管道？

A lot of marketing metrics, again, tend to be vanity metrics.

同样，许多营销指标往往都是虚荣指标。

They tend to be about the number of clicks that you got, number of views that a tweet got, number of impressions.

它们往往与您获得的点击次数、推文获得的浏览次数、展示次数有关。

I think those are all bullshit numbers.

我认为这些都是胡说八道的数字。

Krithika Shankarraman: Really, what you want to be looking at is your impact on either signups if you're a self-serve product, PLG, or in terms of a B2B company, sales leads and revenue that you're driving, pipeline and opportunity that you're driving.

Krithika Shankarraman：实际上，您想要关注的是您对注册的影响（如果您是自助产品、PLG），或者就 B2B 公司而言，您正在推动的销售线索和收入、管道和机会。

So we diagnosed that and we found that for the most part, our paid social channels were doing not much for us.

因此，我们对此进行了诊断，发现在大多数情况下，我们的付费社交渠道对我们没有多大帮助。

And so we had to invest in net new engines.

因此我们必须投资新的引擎。

So that was the diagnostic.

这就是诊断结果。

When we looked at some of the competitors, we saw that they were doing a lot of content marketing.

当我们观察一些竞争对手时，我们发现他们正在进行大量的内容营销。

They were doing a lot of events programming.

他们做了很多活动编程。

And we could've kind of followed in those footsteps, but there was the ability to take a different path.

我们本来可以追随这些脚步，但我们有能力走不同的路。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so what we decided to do was double down on customer marketing and customer storytelling because the thing that differentiated Retool from a lot of the copycat competitors in the market was that we had terrific traction with true enterprises who were paying for the product, who believed in the product, who were expanding within the product.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，我们决定在客户营销和客户故事讲述上加倍努力，因为 Retool 与市场上许多模仿竞争对手的区别在于，我们对真正的企业有很大的吸引力，他们为产品付费，相信产品，在产品内进行扩张。

And so having them tell the stories on our behalf was so much more compelling, and no other company could replicate the kind of customers that Retool had in its bench.

因此，让他们代表我们讲述故事更具吸引力，没有其他公司可以复制 Retool 的客户类型。

So, we wanted to make sure that we were using those logos, we were using those companies to the best impact possible, and then we experimented.

因此，我们想确保我们使用这些徽标，我们使用这些公司来发挥最大的影响力，然后我们进行实验。

We tried to put together webinars, different types of sales dinners, different types of event formats to see what actually worked best for us, and scaled the ones that worked and discarded the ones that didn't.

我们尝试将网络研讨会、不同类型的销售晚宴、不同类型的活动形式放在一起，看看什么才是最适合我们的，并扩展那些有效的方法并丢弃那些无效的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's so much here.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这里有很多东西。

So in the diagnose step, I think in kind of a between-the-lines piece of advice here is look at what's already working.

因此，在诊断步骤中，我认为这里的一条言外之意是查看已经起作用的内容。

So you looked at, okay, maybe paid growth, maybe this, maybe that.

所以你看了看，好吧，也许是付费增长，也许是这个，也许是那个。

And then it's like, "Okay, what seems to be working is people find us through maybe another logo, another customer that's fancy, and they're like, 'Oh, Netflix is using Retool.

然后就像是，“好吧，似乎有效的方法是人们通过另一个徽标、另一个喜欢的客户找到我们，然后他们会说，‘哦，Netflix 正在使用 Retool。

Oh, maybe I should check it out.'" So I think that's a really important lesson there is don't try to like, "Hey, we need to start expanding our top of funnel to all these different channels." There's one more-

哦，也许我应该检查一下。’”所以我认为这是一个非常重要的教训，不要试图喜欢，“嘿，我们需要开始将我们的漏斗顶部扩展到所有这些不同的渠道。”还有一个——

Krithika Shankarraman: And really litigate some of those channels, too, because on the surface they might be working, but are they actually driving pipeline and revenue?

Krithika Shankarraman：确实也对其中一些渠道提起诉讼，因为从表面上看它们可能正在发挥作用，但它们实际上是否在推动渠道和收入？

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So they may be showing vanity metrics.

所以他们可能会展示虚荣指标。

Numbers are nice at the top, but they're not sales qualified potential.

顶部的数字不错，但它们没有销售合格的潜力。

They don't actually stick around.

他们实际上并没有留下来。

Okay.

好的。

And then, the analyze competition is really interesting.

然后，分析比赛真的很有趣。

So again, it's just like, "What are they doing?

再说一次，就像是，“他们在做什么？

What can we be doing differently?" Does it ever make sense just to do what they're doing but do it better, or is that rarely a successful path?

我们可以采取哪些不同的做法？”仅仅做他们正在做的事情但做得更好是否有意义，或者这很少是一条成功的道路？

Krithika Shankarraman: You still have to do something a little bit different.

Krithika Shankarraman：你仍然需要做一些不同的事情。

I recall a very specific example at Stripe where our product, Stripe Connect, which was made for marketplaces like Uber and Airbnb, where not only are you accepting money as a platform, you're also paying out people on the seller side of the marketplace.

我记得 Stripe 的一个非常具体的例子，我们的产品 Stripe Connect 是为 Uber 和 Airbnb 等市场制作的，您不仅可以接受金钱作为平台，还可以向市场卖方的人员付款。

The competition truly was to become a payment facilitator.

这场竞赛真正的目的是成为支付服务商。

So rather than using another off-the-shelf service, instead of using Stripe Connect, you might go off and become a PayFac yourself.

因此，您可以自己成为 PayFac，而不是使用其他现成的服务或 Stripe Connect。

And a lot of the services, organizations, the consulting groups that were helping companies become PayFacs, the things that they were doing was really leaning into that old school terminology, the jargon of the legacy systems and so on and so forth.

许多帮助公司成为 PayFacs 的服务、组织和咨询团体，他们所做的事情实际上都倾向于老式术语、遗留系统的行话等等。

Krithika Shankarraman: And Stripe kind of figured out, "Hey, we need to rank higher for the SEO terms that people are searching for.

Krithika Shankarraman：Stripe 发现，“嘿，我们需要为人们搜索的 SEO 术语排名更高。

So how do we help rank for PayFac without actually talking about ourselves as a PayFac solution?" So we decided to kind of do a reverse RFP system where we created a piece of content that said, "Hey, if you want to be a payment facilitator, here's the secret playbook.

那么，我们如何帮助 PayFac 排名，而不实际谈论我们自己作为 PayFac 解决方案呢？”因此，我们决定做一个反向 RFP 系统，我们创建了一段内容，内容是：“嘿，如果你想成为支付服务商，这是秘密剧本。

Here's all the things that you have to do.

这是您必须做的所有事情。

And by the way, if this feels onerous or annoying, it is, and you should use Stripe Connect instead." So there was still a little bit of a zigging where others were zagging.

顺便说一句，如果这感觉很麻烦或烦人，确实如此，您应该使用 Stripe Connect。”因此，在其他人蜿蜒前进的地方，仍然存在一点曲折。

Yeah, but I think if we had done the same thing in terms of becoming a consulting service to become a payment facilitator, Connect would be nowhere near the sort of run rate or revenue that it drives for the company.

是的，但我认为，如果我们在成为咨询服务商和支付服务商方面做了同样的事情，Connect 将远远无法达到它为公司带来的运行率或收入。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And this is a great segue to Stripe, which, another company you were the very first marketing hire at.

这是对 Stripe 的一个很好的延续，你是这家公司第一个营销人员。

You were also, I believe, the only marketing person for three years at Stripe.

我相信，您也是 Stripe 三年来唯一的营销人员。

Krithika Shankarraman: I do not recommend that to anybody.

Krithika Shankarraman：我不向任何人推荐这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lesson there.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个教训。

Okay, so let's talk about Stripe.

好吧，我们来谈谈 Stripe。

What are some of the biggest things you learned marketing at Stripe that you think might be helpful to other marketing people and founders?

您认为在 Stripe 营销中学到的最重要的东西有哪些可能对其他营销人员和创始人有帮助？

Krithika Shankarraman: Oh, man, there are so many things to choose from because I was Stripe for almost eight and a half years.

Krithika Shankarraman：哦，伙计，有很多东西可供选择，因为我在 Stripe 工作了将近八年半了。

Joining as the company's first marketing hire, building that marketing function from the ground up, it really gave me the privilege of working very closely with our founders, John and Patrick.

作为公司第一位营销人员加入，从头开始建立营销职能，这确实让我有幸与我们的创始人约翰和帕特里克密切合作。

I would say actually I was not the first marketer at Stripe, John and Patrick were the first marketers at Stripe because they were developers themselves.

我想说，实际上我并不是 Stripe 的第一个营销人员，John 和 Patrick 是 Stripe 的第一个营销人员，因为他们本身就是开发人员。

They truly understood the developer community.

他们真正了解开发者社区。

And when that audience for Stripe was squarely developers to begin with, they knew exactly how to authentically reach that audience.

当 Stripe 的受众一开始就是开发人员时，他们就知道如何真正接触到这些受众。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so I had to unlearn a lot of the things that I had learned at Google and Dropbox coming into Stripe in order to reach developers authentically.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，为了真正接触到开发人员，我不得不放弃在 Google 和 Dropbox 中学到的很多东西，进入 Stripe。

The experience really taught me the importance of deep product understanding as well.

这次经历也确实教会了我深入了解产品的重要性。

You couldn't really play act at understanding the product, especially when developers are trained to spot bugs, right?

你无法真正理解产品，尤其是当开发人员接受过发现错误的培训时，对吧？

So not only do they spot those bugs in code, they spot those bugs in marketing and in blog posts.

因此，他们不仅会发现代码中的错误，还会发现营销和博客文章中的错误。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so if the marketing pieces are your first impression of the product, they're an extension of the product itself, you have to hold yourself to a very high bar in terms of how you communicate about the product.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，如果营销作品是您对产品的第一印象，它们是产品本身的延伸，那么您必须在如何传达产品方面对自己保持很高的标准。

And so we did a lot of investment in design work, in polish in terms of how the marketing came together.

因此，我们在设计工作和营销方面进行了大量投资。

And yeah, the value of creating marketing artifacts that were deeply integrated with the company's mission and the craftsmanship that went into the product was another lesson that I learned very deeply at Stripe.

是的，创造与公司使命和产品工艺深度融合的营销产品的价值是我在 Stripe 学到的另一堂课。

Lenny Rachitsky: So kind of along those lines, again, people may look at Stripe and be like, "Okay, it's the best thing ever for payments.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，人们可能会再次看到 Stripe 并说，“好吧，这是有史以来最好的支付方式。

Why do we need marketing?

为什么我们需要营销？

It's just like, engineers build it and integrate, it works." What is it that marketing most adds to a product like Stripe?

就像工程师构建并集成它一样，它可以工作。”像 Stripe 这样的产品，营销最能增加什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: Across my time at Stripe, marketings are very different purposes.

Krithika Shankarraman：在我在 Stripe 工作期间，营销的目的非常不同。

And so I kind of see it in different epochs or chapters of my time at the company.

所以我在公司的不同时期或不同阶段都看到了这一点。

The first chapter when I joined, our head of partnerships at the time, Cristina Cordova, handed me a Hackpad at the time, which is like a notion-

我加入的第一章，我们当时的合作伙伴主管克里斯蒂娜·科尔多瓦（Cristina Cordova）当时递给我一个Hackpad，这就像一个概念——

Krithika Shankarraman: That's right.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：没错。

And so she had kept a Hackpad, a secret Hackpad away from the engineering team, which was all of the features and products that we had shipped but had never communicated to our customers about.

因此，她保留了一个 Hackpad，一个远离工程团队的秘密 Hackpad，其中包含我们已交付但从未与客户沟通过的所有功能和产品。

And so the launch sort of ended with shipping the feature rather than communicating with the user.

因此，发布最终以发布功能而不是与用户沟通而告终。

So the first chapter at Stripe was really just getting through that backlog and making sure that the ethos at the company changed to say, "Hey, your launch isn't complete if you're just code complete.

因此，Stripe 的第一章实际上只是处理积压的工作，并确保公司的精神发生变化，“嘿，如果你只是完成了代码，那么你的发布还没有完成。

You have to actually ship it to the customer and make them aware of it." So usage became the north star, engagement became the north star rather than just the binary, has it launched or not?

你必须实际将其运送给客户并让他们意识到这一点。”因此，使用率成为北极星，参与度成为北极星而不仅仅是双星，它是否已启动？

Krithika Shankarraman: The second chapter at Stripe was really starting to expand what a launch meant, right?

Krithika Shankarraman：Stripe 的第二章确实开始扩展发布的含义，对吗？

So, going from just putting out a blog post for people who were already subscribed to the RSS feed of the company versus thinking through, "Hey, how do we reach out to them through an email, through other channels?

因此，从仅仅为已经订阅了公司 RSS 源的人们发布博客文章，到思考“嘿，我们如何通过电子邮件、通过其他渠道联系他们？

How do we really invest in this fanatical community that is getting so excited about the product experience?" So we pulled together developer experience as a function, built out developer relations to really have that community feeling and vibe.

我们如何真正投资这个对产品体验如此兴奋的狂热社区？”因此，我们将开发者体验作为一项功能整合在一起，建立了开发者关系，以真正拥有社区的感觉和氛围。

Krithika Shankarraman: And then it was about starting to think through the multi-product ecosystem.

Krithika Shankarraman：然后就是开始思考多产品生态系统。

So Stripe went from a single-threaded payments processing company to one that had multiple different products and features for the audience and the user base.

因此，Stripe 从一家单线程支付处理公司发展成为一家为受众和用户群提供多种不同产品和功能的公司。

So then the work of marketing became, how do you help people understand and navigate potentially this multi-product ecosystem and platform to figure out what's the right set of features and solutions that they should be using for their needs?

那么营销工作就变成了，如何帮助人们理解和驾驭这个多产品生态系统和平台，找出他们应该根据自己的需求使用哪些正确的功能和解决方案？

Lenny Rachitsky: And so this is, again, a good example of marketing can do a lot of different things and depends on the stage, depends on the needs.

Lenny Rachitsky：这又是营销可以做很多不同事情的一个很好的例子，这取决于阶段，取决于需求。

It almost starts again with diagnose.

诊断几乎又开始了。

Where do we have a need for marketing and growth?

我们哪里需要营销和增长？

Krithika Shankarraman: And especially in hyper-growth companies, I think you have to run that diagnostic every three months, every six months in order to stay adaptable and flexible because those top level goals do change.

Krithika Shankarraman：特别是在高速增长的公司中，我认为你必须每三个月、每六个月进行一次诊断，以保持适应性和灵活性，因为这些顶级目标确实会发生变化。

At some point, we really have to figure out how to scale our sales function.

在某些时候，我们确实必须弄清楚如何扩展我们的销售职能。

We have to figure out how to scale internationally.

我们必须弄清楚如何扩大国际规模。

And so being adaptable to that meant constant reprioritization and making sure that you were also hiring people who weren't super deep in particular disciplines, but having a team structure that was T-shaped, people who could be flexible to those needs of the company.

因此，适应这种情况意味着不断重新确定优先顺序，并确保你雇用的人员在特定学科上不是很深入，但拥有 T 形团队结构，可以灵活地满足公司的这些需求。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to your point about how there's no playbooks, is Stripe another example where it's like, this has never been done before, we shouldn't copy what other payments companies have done in the past?

Lenny Rachitsky：回到你关于如何没有剧本的观点，Stripe 是另一个例子吗？以前从未这样做过，我们不应该复制其他支付公司过去所做的事情？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

If we did, we would still be talking about PCI compliance and payment gateways.

如果我们这样做，我们仍然会谈论 PCI 合规性和支付网关。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much of what you share that reminds me of Raaz from Wiz, who also, you were an engineer originally, she was a product person.

Lenny Rachitsky：你分享的很多内容让我想起了 Wiz 的 Raaz，你最初是一名工程师，她是一名产品人员。

Yeah, I think.

是的，我想。

I don't know if she was an engineer, but a product person.

我不知道她是不是工程师，而是产品人员。

So it's your-

所以这是你的——

Krithika Shankarraman: Her first PM, actually.

Krithika Shankarraman：实际上是她的第一任总理。

Yeah, Raaz is great.

是的，拉兹很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And I think there's a few things that are so interesting here.

我认为这里有一些事情非常有趣。

One is you both have non-marketing backgrounds, you went from another function.

一是你们都没有营销背景，是从另一个职能部门转过来的。

And I think, you tell me, it gives you a whole new perspective on marketing, not just the traditional education of marketing.

我认为，你告诉我，它给了你一个关于营销的全新视角，而不仅仅是传统的营销教育。

Is there anything there?

那里有什么吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: One thing it's definitely made me is very skeptical of most marketing channels and strategies and tactics.

Krithika Shankarraman：这确实让我对大多数营销渠道、战略和战术非常怀疑。

And so I would be one of the first people to say, "Is that really going to work?

所以我会是第一批说“这真的有用吗？”的人之一。

What developer is clicking on paid ads?

哪些开发商点击了付费广告？

Isn't a better thing that we could be doing for them telling them to install ad block?" So I think that skepticism means that you just have a higher bar for the quality of the content, the substance of the content.

我们可以为他们做的事情是告诉他们安装广告拦截不是更好吗？”所以我认为怀疑意味着你对内容的质量、内容的实质有更高的标准。

You want to make sure that the marketing is as substantive and as crafted as the product experience itself.

您需要确保营销与产品体验本身一样实质性和精心设计。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other really interesting corollary here is she was very big on avoiding the generic acronyms and classic industry norms, I forget what they were, for cloud security.

Lenny Rachitsky：另一个非常有趣的推论是，为了云安全，她非常热衷于避免使用通用缩写词和经典行业规范，我忘了它们是什么。

But it's just like, "We're not this thing.

但这就像，“我们不是这个东西。

We're Wiz.

我们是维兹。

Here's what we do."

这就是我们所做的。”

Krithika Shankarraman: They are definitely a company that zags when others zig.

Krithika Shankarraman：他们绝对是一家在其他公司急转直下时也急转直下的公司。

I still have my Wiz socks, which have these beautiful 8-bit characters on them.

我还保留着我的 Wiz 袜子，上面有这些漂亮的 8 位字符。

Their branding really stands out in the sea of sameness in SaaS conferences.

他们的品牌确实在 SaaS 会议的千篇一律的海洋中脱颖而出。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

There's something I heard that you did at Stripe that I wanted to ask you about that worked really well.

我听说你在 Stripe 做了一些事情，我想问问你，效果非常好。

When you came into Stripe, you looked at all of the biggest customer support issues and you turned those into docs to help people serve themselves.

当您进入 Stripe 时，您研究了所有最大的客户支持问题，并将这些问题转化为文档来帮助人们为自己服务。

Can you just talk about that insight and the power of doing something like that?

您能谈谈这种洞察力以及做类似事情的力量吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, and this was a great practice that existed at Stripe even before I joined, which is all new hires would do a support rotation just to build empathy with our customers.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，这是在我加入之前 Stripe 就存在的一个很好的做法，即所有新员工都会进行支持轮换，只是为了与我们的客户建立同理心。

So, users first was a very core operating principle for the company, and we spent about 20% of our time collectively talking to customers, talking to users, talking to non-users to understand their needs, their gripes about the product.

所以，用户至上是公司非常核心的运营原则，我们花了大约 20% 的时间集体与客户交谈，与用户交谈，与非用户交谈，以了解他们的需求，他们对产品的抱怨。

And that tradition, I think, continues to today.

我认为这种传统一直延续到今天。

The support rotation specifically was such a fantastic fountain of understanding, "Hey, these are the areas that people are confused about."

特别是支持轮换是一个非常棒的理解源泉，“嘿，这些是人们感到困惑的领域。”

Krithika Shankarraman: Again, I kind of mentioned this sort of cheat code of talking to your customers and using the language that they use to describe their problems as a shortcut to fantastic product marketing and messaging, because it really tells you what are their pain points and how can you meet them where they are.

Krithika Shankarraman：我再次提到了这种与客户交谈并使用他们用来描述问题的语言的作弊代码，作为出色的产品营销和消息传递的捷径，因为它确实告诉您他们的痛点是什么以及您如何满足他们的需求。

You want them nodding their heads along as they're reading your landing pages.

您希望他们在阅读您的着陆页时点头。

And so when I was doing the support rotation, there were thematic things that kept coming up.

因此，当我进行支持轮换时，一些主题性的事情不断出现。

People were asking, "Hey, do you process subscription payments or recurring payments?" Or, "Can I pay people out with Stripe?" And I was like, "Of course you could, but there's no reason you should know that because we don't tell you anywhere."

人们问：“嘿，你们处理订阅付款还是定期付款？”或者，“我可以用 Stripe 向人们付款吗？”我当时想，“你当然可以，但你没有理由知道这一点，因为我们不会在任何地方告诉你。”

Krithika Shankarraman: And so that ended up being a stacked rank backlog of landing pages that we produce that just educated people.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，最终我们为受过教育的人制作了一堆积压的登陆页面。

And this is really important when you have strong top of funnel demand, and potentially not as many people and you're not trying to scale your teams linearly.

当您有强大的漏斗顶部需求，并且可能没有那么多人并且您不尝试线性扩展您的团队时，这一点非常重要。

Having those educational resources, especially for developers, a fantastic marketing funnel sometimes doesn't look like talking to sales.

拥有这些教育资源，尤其是对于开发人员而言，出色的营销渠道有时看起来并不像与销售人员交谈。

It often never looks like talking to sales.

通常看起来不像是在与销售人员交谈。

It looks like a self-directed educational experience.

这看起来像是一种自我导向的教育体验。

Even the sales process ends up being very consultative typically with very technical folks on the other side.

即使是销售过程最终也会与另一方的技术人员进行大量协商。

So yeah, that was a great way and a great program to figure out what content we should focus and prioritize.

所以，是的，这是一个很好的方法和一个很好的计划，可以确定我们应该关注和优先考虑的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: These are really cool just little ways as a new marketing person.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为营销新人，这些确实很酷。

You can add value really quickly is kind of what I'm taking away.

你可以很快地增加价值，这就是我所带走的。

Krithika Shankarraman: Talking to customers is at the top of the list.

Krithika Shankarraman：与客户交谈是首要任务。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 LinkedIn Ads 为您带来的。

One of the hardest and also most important parts of B2B marketing is reaching the right people.

B2B 营销中最困难也是最重要的部分之一就是接触到合适的人。

I'm constantly getting ads for products that I will never buy, and I almost feel sorry for the money that these companies are spending pitching me on their spend management software or some kind of cybersecurity solution that my one man business just does not need.

我不断收到我永远不会购买的产品的广告，我几乎为这些公司花很多钱向我推销他们的支出管理软件或某种我的个人业务不需要的网络安全解决方案感到遗憾。

When you're ready to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn Ads.

当您准备好接触合适的专业人士时，请使用 LinkedIn 广告。

LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad platforms.

LinkedIn 已发展成为拥有超过 10 亿专业人士（其中包括 1.3 亿决策者）的网络，这就是它与其他广告平台的不同之处。

You can target your ad buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue.

您可以根据职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能，甚至公司收入来定位广告买家。

Lenny Rachitsky: All the professionals that you need to reach in one place.

Lenny Rachitsky：您需要在一个地方联系到的所有专业人士。

Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn Ads.

停止将预算浪费在错误的受众身上，并开始仅在 LinkedIn 广告上定位合适的专业人士。

LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so that you can try it for yourself.

LinkedIn 甚至会在您的下一次活动中为您提供 100 美元的积分，以便您可以亲自尝试。

Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny.

只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny。

That's linkedin.com/podlenny.

那是 linkedin.com/podlenny。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Only on LinkedIn Ads.

仅在 LinkedIn 广告上。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's something else that I know that you're a big advocate of which is internal reviews and just making sure everyone's aligned, which I think a lot of people and especially startups try to avoid.

Lenny Rachitsky：据我所知，还有一件事是你大力提倡的，那就是内部审查，并确保每个人都保持一致，我认为很多人，尤其是初创公司都试图避免这样做。

Like, "Let's just move fast.

就像，“让我们快点行动吧。

We don't need to have all these meetings where people review stuff," but I know you're a big advocate of that.

我们不需要召开所有这些会议来让人们审查东西，”但我知道你是这一点的大力倡导者。

Talk about why that's so important.

谈谈为什么这如此重要。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, this is a hill that I would die on, which is that good process or sufficient process is actually something that speeds up a company rather than slow it down.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，这是一座我愿意死在上面的山，良好的流程或足够的流程实际上可以加速公司而不是放慢速度。

It stems from this idea that we talked about a little bit, which is that marketing is an extension of your product.

它源于我们刚才谈到的这个想法，即营销是产品的延伸。

It's the first touchpoint your customers have with your product.

这是客户与您的产品的第一个接触点。

And ideally, you're setting expectations there in terms of what they should expect once they sign up for the product or commit to a contract and start using it within their companies.

理想情况下，您可以根据他们在注册产品或签订合同并开始在公司内使用该产品后的期望来设定期望。

And when I think about that, consistency is really, really important.

当我想到这一点时，一致性真的非常非常重要。

Krithika Shankarraman: The other part, the other facet of why process is important is because especially as you're in hyper-growth companies, scaling teams is part and parcel like what you're trying to do.

Krithika Shankarraman：另一方面，流程之所以重要的另一个方面是因为，特别是当你在高速增长的公司时，扩展团队是你想要做的事情的重要组成部分。

And when you bring in someone new, you want them to be just as self-sufficient as somebody who's been at the company for two years.

当你引进新人时，你希望他们能像在公司工作了两年的人一样自给自足。

So in your second week, can you be as successful as someone who's been at the company for two years?

那么在你的第二周，你能像在公司工作了两年的人一样成功吗？

And the reason that I have that principle in mind is because it makes you kind of break out of your shell of, "I've been at this company for some time now.

我之所以牢记这一原则，是因为它让你摆脱了自己的外壳，“我已经在这家公司工作了一段时间了。

I understand the sort of unspoken rules of the organization.

我了解组织的潜规则。

I've built up enough social capital that I can withdraw from to get something done.

我已经积累了足够的社会资本，我可以从中抽出来完成某件事。

And I know which conference room to stand outside of to get the founder to review a piece of content before it goes out the door."

我知道应该站在哪个会议室外面，让创始人在内容发布之前对其进行审查。”

Krithika Shankarraman: That is not scalable, that is not sustainable.

Krithika Shankarraman：这是不可扩展的，也是不可持续的。

And so if you want somebody to be successful and contributing member of the organization very, very quickly, setting up some of these processes with the intention of trying to help them navigate how to go from idea to execution can be very empowering and powerful.

因此，如果您希望某人非常非常快地取得成功并为组织做出贡献，那么建立其中一些流程以试图帮助他们了解如何从想法到执行可能会非常有力量和强大。

Nobody wants to do the wrong thing.

没有人愿意做错事。

They want the guardrails to understand what great looks like at the company.

他们希望护栏了解公司的伟大之处。

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you speak more about what this looks like?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能详细谈谈这是什么样子吗？

Say a startup wants to start implementing something like this.

假设一家初创公司想要开始实施这样的事情。

Krithika Shankarraman: Two simple processes that you could put into place today is, one, set up a forum called Marketing Review.

Krithika Shankarraman：您今天可以实施的两个简单流程是，一是建立一个名为“营销评论”的论坛。

This can be a live meeting that you host for an hour a week or it can be a Slack channel where people are posting things async, or even an email alias where things get sent to.

这可以是您每周主持一小时的实时会议，也可以是人们异步发布内容的 Slack 频道，甚至可以是发送内容的电子邮件别名。

Have that be transparent to the rest of the organization so anyone in the marketing team, anyone in the product organization can join that forum.

让这对组织的其他部分透明，以便营销团队中的任何人、产品组织中的任何人都可以加入该论坛。

What that does is it creates a fishbowl where you see sort of, what are the themes that come out when somebody reviews a piece of content?

它的作用是创建一个鱼缸，你可以在其中看到，当有人评论一段内容时会出现什么主题？

Are they looking at the strategy?

他们正在考虑战略吗？

Are they looking at the audience?

他们在看观众吗？

Are they looking at the words?

他们在看文字吗？

Are they looking at the sort of design approach?

他们正在考虑哪种设计方法吗？

So you learn through osmosis of looking at some of these discussions.

因此，您可以通过观看其中一些讨论来学习。

Krithika Shankarraman: And then I would say don't overdo it.

Krithika Shankarraman：然后我想说不要做得太过分。

I would say there are probably two checkpoints in a program that are really important to get aligned at.

我想说，程序中可能有两个检查点对于保持一致非常重要。

One is the 20% review.

一是20%的评论。

A 20% review is a strategy review.

20%的审核是策略审核。

What are we trying to accomplish?

我们想要实现什么目标？

Who are we trying to do it for, and what is the rough approach that we're going to take?

我们要为谁做这件事，我们将采取什么粗略的方法？

If everyone feels comfortable with that, you come back at the 80% mark where you've done a lot of the work on the artifacts, the different types of teams that have to be involved and how do you take something to market it in the first place.

如果每个人都对此感到满意，那么您就已经完成了 80% 的工作，您已经在工件、必须参与的不同类型的团队以及首先如何将某些东西推向市场方面做了很多工作。

Krithika Shankarraman: And the reason that I say 80% is sort of critical because if you come in at the 99% mark and you're just looking for a rubber stamp of approval, and you don't really have the slack in the system to be able to make any changes, then that review was worthless.

Krithika Shankarraman：我说 80% 的原因有点关键，因为如果你以 99% 的分数进入，而你只是在寻找批准的橡皮图章，并且你的系统中没有真正的余裕来进行任何更改，那么该审核就毫无价值。

So come in at the 80% mark where you can still make some substantive changes before it goes out the door.

因此，在达到 80% 的标准时，您仍然可以在产品退出市场之前进行一些实质性的更改。

And that serves the purpose of consistency so that your brand is showing up in a consistent way to the audience.

这有助于保持一致性，以便您的品牌以一致的方式向受众展示。

And two, it helps the rest of the organization learn from each other.

第二，它有助于组织的其他部分相互学习。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's almost this unspoken element of what you're describing that I want to dig into a little bit, which is the need and value of having consistent and high quality marketing, communication.

Lenny Rachitsky：您所描述的几乎有一个不言而喻的元素，我想深入探讨一下，这就是拥有一致和高质量的营销、沟通的需求和价值。

Why is that important?

为什么这很重要？

There's always this talk of just move fast break things.

总是有人说只要移动快攻就可以了。

"We're going to be scrappy.

“我们会变得斗志旺盛。

We're not going to be obsessed with perfect quality of our, I don't know, websites and emails." Just, why is that important?

我们不会沉迷于网站和电子邮件的完美质量，我不知道。”只是，为什么这么重要？

Why do you value that?

你为什么这么看重？

Why should companies maybe value that more?

为什么公司应该更看重这一点？

Krithika Shankarraman: It's funny because with the companies who value velocity actually do value their brand just as much, but oftentimes they think of these as two siloed separate initiatives that they have to put their headspace and calories towards.

Krithika Shankarraman：这很有趣，因为对于那些重视速度的公司来说，他们实际上也同样重视他们的品牌，但他们通常认为这是两个孤立的独立举措，他们必须将自己的空间和卡路里投入其中。

And I actually think they are not mutually exclusive.

事实上我认为它们并不相互排斥。

They are actually very interconnected.

它们实际上是非常相互关联的。

And so when you understand the consistency of your brand, it actually empowers the organization to move faster because you kind of understand how you want the brand to show up in the world.

因此，当您了解品牌的一致性时，它实际上使组织能够更快地行动，因为您在某种程度上了解了您希望品牌如何出现在世界上。

What is that experience that you want your customers to come away with when they interact with your brand?

您希望客户在与您的品牌互动时获得什么样的体验？

Krithika Shankarraman: And the brand is not just marketing artifacts, it is your product experience.

Krithika Shankarraman：品牌不仅仅是营销产品，更是你的产品体验。

It is how your customer support team talks to them, how they resolve tickets.

这是您的客户支持团队与他们交谈以及解决问题的方式。

Are you getting passed between a bunch of different teams or is someone just resolving your ticket right away?

您是否在一群不同的团队之间被传递，或者是否有人立即解决您的问题？

It's the experience that they have for candidates when they come to recruit your company.

这是他们在招聘您的公司时为候选人提供的经验。

So all of these variety of touch points that touch so many different organizations and teams within your organization, they are the amalgamation that makes up your brand.

因此，所有这些接触点接触到组织内如此多的不同组织和团队，它们构成了您的品牌。

And so if you think of these two things as separate silos, you are optimizing for entirely the wrong thing.

因此，如果您将这两件事视为独立的孤岛，那么您正在针对完全错误的事情进行优化。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've very viscerally learned the power of brand doing my newsletter.

Lenny Rachitsky：通过我的时事通讯，我深深地体会到了品牌的力量。

I so fear doing something very wrong in my newsletter.

我非常害怕在我的时事通讯中做一些非常错误的事情。

It's like, saying something that's completely off or having something broken, or sending an email by accident to everyone that's not ready.

这就像说一些完全不对劲的话或者有什么东西坏了，或者不小心向每个还没有准备好的人发送了一封电子邮件。

I just feel like once I break that, just there's so much power and trust that people have built for what I share and there's so much power that comes from that trust.

我只是觉得一旦我打破了这一点，人们就会为我分享的东西建立起如此多的力量和信任，而这种信任就会产生如此多的力量。

If I launch a new podcast, people will assume it will be good if they trust what I do and I maintain high quality.

如果我推出一个新的播客，人们会认为如果他们相信我所做的事情并且我保持高质量，那么它会很好。

And so it's just like a constant fear I have now of breaking that trust.

所以我现在一直担心打破这种信任。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, I mean whether it's fear that drives you is questionable because I think it's also a commitment to your craft.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，我的意思是是否是恐惧驱使你是值得怀疑的，因为我认为这也是对你的技艺的承诺。

Krithika Shankarraman: But I think that's exactly right.

Krithika Shankarraman：但我认为这是完全正确的。

A brand is an expectation that you create within your audience.

品牌是您在受众中创造的期望。

Lenny Rachitsky: And to what you said, if you have a strong brand that people trust, everything gets easier.

Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所说，如果你拥有一个人们信任的强大品牌，一切都会变得更容易。

You pitch them a new product.

你向他们推销新产品。

Like if Stripes like, "Oh, we have a new billing service."

就像 Stripes 喜欢的那样，“哦，我们有新的计费服务。”

Lenny Rachitsky: "Oh.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：“哦。

Oh, I bet it'll be awesome because it's Stripe." Or if OpenAI launches something.

哦，我敢打赌它会很棒，因为它是 Stripe。”或者如果 OpenAI 推出了一些东西。

So it just makes life easier if your brand is strong, if there's trust.

因此，如果你的品牌强大、存在信任，生活就会变得更轻松。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, and you got to take that responsibility seriously because even with something like Stripe, we know that people are going to come try out things that we put out the door.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，你必须认真对待这一责任，因为即使有像 Stripe 这样的产品，我们也知道人们会来尝试我们推出的产品。

And so we wanted to make sure that that met up to people's expectations.

因此，我们希望确保这符合人们的期望。

And same thing with OpenAI.

OpenAI 也是如此。

When we launched something, even though we were trying to be first to market and that velocity was so important for the company, oftentimes it also came with sometimes putting the brakes on to kind of understand, how can we improve the quality of the experience?

当我们推出某样东西时，尽管我们试图率先进入市场，而且速度对公司来说非常重要，但有时我们也会停下来了解一下，我们如何才能提高体验的质量？

How can we make sure that it is safe?

我们如何确保它是安全的？

So there were different criteria at the two companies, but a similar ethos overall for the brand experience that we wanted people to experience.

因此，两家公司有不同的标准，但我们希望人们体验的品牌体验总体上具有相似的精神。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually come back to OpenAI.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们真正回到 OpenAI。

How long were they around before you joined?

在你加入之前他们已经存在多久了？

It was like many, many years, right?

好像很多很多年了，对吧？

Krithika Shankarraman: Many, many years.

Krithika Shankarraman：很多很多年了。

So OpenAI had been around for almost a decade as primarily a research organization.

OpenAI 作为一个主要的研究组织已经存在了近十年。

They had launched ChatGPT about a year before I joined.

在我加入之前大约一年，他们就推出了 ChatGPT。

And so that was the first foray into saying, "Hey, our work is not just announcing research breakthroughs, it is about putting products into the market."

因此，这是第一次尝试说：“嘿，我们的工作不仅仅是宣布研究突破，而是将产品推向市场。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So there's a few questions I want to ask here.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想在这里问几个问题。

When is a time to bring in a Krithika?

什么时候适合引入 Krithika？

When is it like, "Okay, we need help here"?

什么时候会出现“好吧，我们需要帮助”？

Or, "A bunch of smart people doing great work, people have the product, but I think we need a marketing person that knows what they're doing."

或者，“一群聪明的人做得很好，人们拥​​有产品，但我认为我们需要一个知道自己在做什么的营销人员。”

Krithika Shankarraman: I think the first criteria is having tremendous product market fit, which is really important because you're throwing fuel on the fire, and you might be throwing different types of fuel on your particular fire.

Krithika Shankarraman：我认为第一个标准是拥有巨大的产品市场契合度，这非常重要，因为你是在火上浇油，而且你可能会在你的特定火上投入不同类型的燃料。

So one pillar for marketing that you have to think about is product marketing.

因此，您必须考虑的营销支柱之一是产品营销。

So, if you have a high velocity engineering organization and product organization that is putting out a lot of different features and your customers aren't able to keep track, maybe the engagement's not so high for some of the newer features versus some of the core features that you had in the past, a product marketer can really help bring a discipline of launch excellence and customer engagement, differentiation in the market.

因此，如果您有一个高速的工程组织和产品组织，正在推出许多不同的功能，而您的客户无法跟踪，也许某些新功能的参与度与您过去拥有的某些核心功能相比并不那么高，那么产品营销人员确实可以帮助带来卓越的发布和客户参与以及市场差异化的纪律。

How are you positioning the product?

您如何定位产品？

Krithika Shankarraman: The second pillar for me is demand generation.

Krithika Shankarraman：对我来说第二个支柱是需求创造。

So if you have much more of a sales driven buyer journey in motion, how are you bringing the demand engines to bear so that your lead generation, your pipeline generation is staying really strong and solid?

因此，如果您有更多由销售驱动的买家旅程，您如何利用需求引擎，使您的潜在客户一代、渠道一代保持真正强大和稳固？

Or you might want to think about brand, right?

或者您可能想考虑品牌，对吗？

You might want to think about community development as a big part of what you're doing as a company.

您可能希望将社区发展视为公司所做工作的重要组成部分。

So it really depends, but I think in all of these, you found a spark of product market fit before you're really going for it.

所以这确实取决于情况，但我认为在所有这些中，你在真正投入之前就发现了产品市场契合的火花。

Krithika Shankarraman: The second for me is that you're distinguishing enough between capital and marketing and lowercase and marketing.

Krithika Shankarraman：对我来说第二个是你对资本和营销以及小写和营销之间的区别足够明显。

And there's an important distinction I've learned over the years, which is capital and marketing, the marketing team, the marketing function at the company is responsible for those channels and artifacts and engines that are driving the funnel for the company, but they are not the end all be all of the discipline of marketing.

多年来我学到了一个重要的区别，那就是资本和营销、营销团队、公司的营销职能负责那些推动公司漏斗的渠道、工件和引擎，但它们并不是营销学科的最终目标。

Krithika Shankarraman: And that's where the lowercase and marketing comes in, which is, what do you stand for as a company?

Krithika Shankarraman：这就是小写字母和营销的用武之地，也就是说，作为一家公司，你代表什么？

What is the storyline that you're telling as a founder when you're talking to the press, to the larger business community?

作为创始人，当您与媒体和更大的商业界交谈时，您讲述的故事情节是什么？

And then it really is a whole company motion where the product team is thinking about, "How are we going to market?

然后，这确实是整个公司的动议，产品团队正在思考：“我们如何营销？

What are we going to market with?" The sales team is figuring out, "What is the right ICP, the right customer profile that decision makers, that we need to be reaching?" And then it is this entire joining of the organizations to make that happen really effectively.

我们要以什么产品推向市场？”销售团队正在弄清楚，“我们需要向决策者传达的正确的 ICP、正确的客户档案是什么？”然后正是组织的整体联合才能真正有效地实现这一目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I think along these lines, there's a reason Brian at Airbnb merged marketing, or product marketing and product management.

我认为，按照这些思路，Brian 在 Airbnb 合并营销或产品营销和产品管理是有原因的。

However much of that actually happened or not, but the intention-

不管其中大部分是否真的发生了，但其意图——

Krithika Shankarraman: I would be so curious to see a follow-up a few years on on how that's been going.

Krithika Shankarraman：我很好奇几年后能看到后续进展。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Okay, let's have Brian back to talk about that.

好吧，让布莱恩回来谈谈这个问题。

That'd be really interesting.

那真的很有趣。

I wanted to actually ask, an interesting thing is happening with ChatGPT versus Claude, and it's so interesting.

我其实想问的是，ChatGPT 与 Claude 之间发生了一件有趣的事情，而且非常有趣。

Claude is arguably better at many things at code, at least at this point.

可以说，克劳德在代码方面的很多方面都做得更好，至少在这一点上是这样。

Things are always changing.

事情总是在变化。

It seems to be a better writer in a lot of ways.

从很多方面来看，它似乎是一个更好的作家。

People prefer it for writing, but it's just like ChatGPT is just dominating.

人们更喜欢用它来写作，但这就像 ChatGPT 占据主导地位一样。

It's like, that's what people associate with AI now is just ChatGPT.

就好像，人们现在与 AI 的联系就是 ChatGPT。

It's just caught mindshare globally.

它刚刚引起了全球的关注。

What is it, do you think, that allowed ChatGPT just to be that?

您认为是什么让 ChatGPT 成为这样的？

Is it just first mover advantage?

这仅仅是先发优势吗？

Is it some kind of other element?

它是某种其他元素吗？

Has it been better longer?

时间长了有好点吗？

Something really interesting is going on there.

那里正在发生一些非常有趣的事情。

Krithika Shankarraman: One of the things that comes to mind is the orientation when it comes to large language models, and AI in general, is that we're just at the very beginning innings of this whole paradigm shift.

Krithika Shankarraman：我想到的一件事是，当谈到大型语言模型和一般的人工智能时，我们正处于整个范式转变的最初阶段。

And so every single week there is a new breakthrough in AI that comes out from some lab or the other.

因此，每周都会有某个实验室在人工智能方面取得新的突破。

There's this one-upmanship on point changes and eval numbers and so on and so forth.

在分数变化和评估数字等等方面存在着这种优势。

But I think to customers, the users of the product, the things that make it delightful are the same things that make any product delightful.

但我认为，对于客户、产品的用户来说，让产品令人愉悦的因素与让任何产品令人愉悦的因素是一样的。

And there's a sense of loyalty that builds up over time when there is a shorter and smaller delta between your expectations and your reality.

当你的期望与现实之间的差距越来越小时，忠诚感就会随着时间的推移而增强。

Krithika Shankarraman: And where those expectations are exceeded, it is accretive to the brand and your loyalty to the product.

Krithika Shankarraman：如果超出了这些期望，就会增加品牌和您对产品的忠诚度。

And where there is a negative delta, that tends to be something that it really detracts.

如果存在负增量，则往往会真正减损。

I guess, long story short, what I'm trying to say is that all of these companies have to think in a much more long-term oriented fashion because it's not about a race of the best chatbot and the best outputs.

我想，长话短说，我想说的是，所有这些公司都必须以更长远的方式思考，因为这不是最好的聊天机器人和最好的输出的竞赛。

It's about, how does AI become a positive force for humanity?

这是关于，人工智能如何成为人类的积极力量？

Krithika Shankarraman: And so that's going to take a lot of change management and a lot of collaboration between a variety of different organizations rather than just the companies themselves and the product experience itself, because it's going to permeate every aspect of our lives.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，这将需要大量的变革管理和各种不同组织之间的大量协作，而不仅仅是公司本身和产品体验本身，因为它将渗透到我们生活的各个方面。

Our personal lives, our academic lives, our work lives.

我们的个人生活、学术生活、工作生活。

And so to make that transformation happen, my hope is these companies are not super focused on just their competition and one-upmanship, but rather thinking about the paradigm changes that need to happen for our society at large.

因此，为了实现这一转变，我希望这些公司不要只过度关注竞争和优势，而是要考虑整个社会需要发生的范式变革。

Lenny Rachitsky: It does feel like they are taking that responsibility really seriously, but it is a massive responsibility.

Lenny Rachitsky：确实感觉他们非常认真地对待这一责任，但这是一个巨大的责任。

Before we leave OpenAI, it feels like it may be the most impactful, important company in the world right now just because they seem to be at the furthest edge of where AI is going.

在我们离开 OpenAI 之前，我们感觉它可能是目前世界上最具影响力、最重要的公司，因为它们似乎处于人工智能发展的最前沿。

And so it's just such an interesting place to study.

所以这是一个非常有趣的学习场所。

So let me ask you this.

那么让我问你这个问题。

Just as a person working there, what's something people may not know that's a wonderful, positive element of how open AI works that's just like, "Oh, that's super interesting"?

就像在那里工作的人一样，人们可能不知道什么是开放式人工智能如何运作的一个美妙的、积极的元素，就像“哦，那太有趣了”？

And then, what was maybe a challenge of working at OpenAI?

那么，在 OpenAI 工作可能面临的挑战是什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: A surprising thing that surprised me at the company was just the warmth and intellectual curiosity of my peers and leaders at the company.

Krithika Shankarraman：公司里令我惊讶的一件令人惊讶的事情是公司同事和领导的热情和求知欲。

And truly, the sort of commitment to the mission of making artificial intelligence that benefits all of humanity was not just lip service.

确实，对让人工智能造福全人类这一使命的承诺不仅仅是口头上的承诺。

It was something that was embodied day to day.

这是每天都在体现的东西。

The sort of questioning that happened, the sort of pressure testing that happened, the rigor with which products were developed, go-to market strategies were developed, was bar none.

发生的那种质疑，发生的那种压力测试，产品开发的严格程度，制定进入市场的策略，都是前所未有的。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so that's something that I really admired, and it was a privilege to be a part of that organization.

Krithika Shankarraman：这是我真正钦佩的事情，并且很荣幸成为该组织的一员。

I think challenging, of course, is just being at the eye of the storm, right?

我认为挑战当然就是处于风暴中心，对吧？

The eye of the hurricane.

飓风眼。

So, all eyes are on OpenAI at all times, and I think that is a good thing because of the ramifications of the product.

因此，所有人的目光始终都集中在 OpenAI 上，我认为这是一件好事，因为该产品的影响深远。

But it also really raised the stakes in terms of how we operated and with what scrutiny, everything that we did was looked at with.

但这也确实提高了我们的运营方式和审查方式以及我们所做的一切都受到审查的风险。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you recommend that sort of experience for people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您会向人们推荐这种体验吗？

Because I imagine work-life balance wasn't great.

因为我认为工作与生活的平衡不太好。

I imagine there was a lot of stress and worry constantly.

我想一直有很大的压力和担忧。

Who's the right...

谁是对的...

When in your career is this a sort of gig to take on versus not?

在你的职业生涯中，什么时候这是一种需要承担的工作？

Krithika Shankarraman: I'm a big believer of what Claire Hughes Johnson, who was COO at Stripe, used to share with us, which is there is a concept of a work-life blend and sort of making sure that you're working at a company that has three components.

Krithika Shankarraman：我非常相信 Stripe 首席运营官克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊 (Claire Hughes Johnson) 曾经与我们分享的内容，那就是工作与生活融合的概念，并确保你在一家由三个组成部分组成的公司工作。

I think first and foremost is always people.

我认为首先也是最重要的始终是人。

So, are the people that you're surrounding yourself with ones that push your thinking, who are kind, who are genuinely interesting people to spend your hours with?

那么，你周围的人是那些能够推动你思考的人、那些善良的人、那些真正值得你共度时光的人吗？

Because you're spending a vast majority of your time with them.

因为你大部分时间都和他们在一起。

Krithika Shankarraman: The second to me is product, right?

Krithika Shankarraman：对我来说第二个是产品，对吧？

Do you go to sleep thinking about the product, waking up, wanting to put it into the hands of more people because you know it is going to be good for them or useful to them?

您是否会在入睡时想着该产品，醒来后是否希望将其交到更多人手中，因为您知道它会对他们有好处或有用？

I'm not one of those marketers who can pick up any product and market it.

我不是那种可以挑选任何产品并进行营销的营销人员。

I have to have that conviction behind the product itself.

我必须对产品本身有这样的信念。

Krithika Shankarraman: And then third is sort of potential, right?

Krithika Shankarraman：那么第三就是潜力，对吧？

Not just potential for the company to do well, but potential for your discipline to have an impact on the trajectory of the company.

不仅有公司表现出色的潜力，而且你的纪律也有可能对公司的发展轨迹产生影响。

And so when you have that kind of potent combination, it can really change your perspective on what's draining, what's energizing.

因此，当你拥有这种有效的组合时，它确实可以改变你对什么是消耗精力、什么是充满活力的看法。

But being very self-aware of what gives you energy is also very helpful to align with the needs of the company, also.

但非常清楚自己的能量来源对于​​满足公司的需求也非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's shift to talking about Thrive, which is where you work now, and talk about what your role is.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们谈谈 Thrive，这是您现在工作的地方，并谈谈您的角色是什么。

And what's interesting, I think, about this role is you get to work now with a bunch of different startups instead of go really deep with one.

我认为，这个角色的有趣之处在于，你现在可以与一堆不同的初创公司合作，而不是深入研究一个公司。

So share what you do there.

所以分享一下你在那里做了什么。

And then, what are some things you've learned there so far from a perspective for marketing?

那么，从营销的角度来看，到目前为止您学到了哪些东西？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, surprisingly, more people know about Thrive these days than used to even just a few years ago.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，令人惊讶的是，现在了解 Thrive 的人比几年前还要多。

Thrive's a very unique type of investment company.

Thrive 是一家非常独特的投资公司。

And sometimes, when I made the leap, people used to ask me, "Oh, was this always in your ambition to make the leap into the investment side of the house?" And I can honestly say it wasn't.

有时，当我实现这一飞跃时，人们常常问我，“哦，这是否一直是你的野心，想要跨越到投资领域？”我可以诚实地说事实并非如此。

But I think being at a firm like Thrive really gives you a very different perspective and it strengthens your ability to be a stronger operator, whether that's in marketing or go-to market or strategic finance, or whatever other pillar within the company there is.

但我认为，在像 Thrive 这样的公司确实会给你一个非常不同的视角，它会增强你成为更强大运营商的能力，无论是在营销、进入市场、战略财务，还是公司内的任何其他支柱方面。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, Thrive's mission is to be the most meaningful partner to founders.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，Thrive 的使命是成为创始人最有意义的合作伙伴。

And so there's a lot of high-concentration, high-conviction investments each year.

因此，每年都会有大量高集中度、高信念的投资。

And Thrive is also unique in that it's a network of builders, and so they are really pulling their investment strategies from having been founders themselves.

Thrive 的独特之处还在于它是一个建设者网络，因此他们真正将自己的投资策略从创始人的身份中拉出来。

So my role at the company is to help our entire portfolio with all of their marketing needs, so sometimes it means being interim CMO for some portion of time until they find a great leader to fill that seat.

因此，我在公司的角色是帮助我们的整个投资组合满足他们的所有营销需求，因此有时这意味着在一段时间内担任临时首席营销官，直到他们找到一位出色的领导者来填补该职位。

Sometimes it means pressure testing their strategy and making sure that their growth targets are ambitious enough.

有时，这意味着对他们的战略进行压力测试，并确保他们的增长目标足够雄心勃勃。

Sometimes it means looking at a Figma file for a landing page that's going out the next day and making sure the words are as good as they can be.

有时，这意味着查看 Figma 文件以获取第二天发布的登陆页面，并确保文字尽可能好。

Krithika Shankarraman: And that variety across a bunch of industries, a bunch of stages of companies, everything from a company that hasn't even been incorporated yet, all the way to Databricks and Stripe and OpenAI when it comes to the types of organizations that we work with.

Krithika Shankarraman：当涉及到我们合作的组织类型时，这种多样性跨越了一系列行业、一系列阶段的公司，从尚未成立的公司，一直到 Databricks、Stripe 和 OpenAI。

And in the end, the variety of domains can range from consumer to healthcare, to defense, to B2B SaaS, to AI.

最后，各种领域的范围可以涵盖从消费者到医疗保健、国防、B2B SaaS 和人工智能。

So it is a variety pack in the best way possible.

因此，它是尽可能最好的多样化包装。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so what are some things you've learned so far?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么到目前为止您学到了哪些东西？

Because I imagine this is a very different experience.

因为我想这是一次非常不同的体验。

I don't know, especially things that you've changed your mind on even, working with a bunch of companies, early stage versus, what can I say?

我不知道，尤其是那些你甚至改变主意的事情，与很多公司合作，早期阶段与，我能说什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: It's a really different method of operating.

Krithika Shankarraman：这是一种非常不同的操作方法。

And so when you're in the leadership role for marketing within a single organization, you have at least a medium term north star in terms of what your teams are trying to drive for the company.

因此，当您在单个组织内担任营销领导角色时，就您的团队试图为公司推动的目标而言，您至少拥有一个中期北极星。

And as much context switching as there might be, there is still one company, ideally one product, one buyer journey.

尽管可能有尽可能多的环境切换，但仍然是一家公司，最好是一种产品，一种买家旅程。

That hasn't always been the case, especially with OpenAI and Stripe, but it can span B2C, B2B, B2D.

情况并非总是如此，尤其是 OpenAI 和 Stripe，但它可以跨越 B2C、B2B、B2D。

Krithika Shankarraman: Thrive is very different in that if you want to be a meaningful partner to the founders, you cannot just jump from 30-minute call to 30-minute call to 30-minute call.

Krithika Shankarraman：Thrive 非常不同，如果你想成为创始人有意义的合作伙伴，你不能从 30 分钟的通话跳到 30 分钟的通话，再到 30 分钟的通话。

You have to go deep to understand the context.

你必须深入了解上下文。

And if anything, it's really underscored my ethos that you as a marketer, the best thing that you can bring to the table is your adaptability and flexibility.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是它确实强调了我的理念，即作为一名营销人员，你能带来的最好的东西就是你的适应能力和灵活性。

So, to really diagnose and not just try to spot patterns and themes and playbooks for these companies, but rather be very deep in the trenches with them to understand their unique context, their unique concerns, their unique characteristics, and their values and what they want to bring into the world.

因此，要真正诊断，而不仅仅是试图发现这些公司的模式、主题和剧本，而是要深入了解他们的独特背景、他们独特的关注点、他们独特的特征、他们的价值观以及他们想给世界带来什么。

Krithika Shankarraman: The reason that they want to work with Thrive is not because we are bringing our past experiences to the table, but rather because they're trying to do something new that has never been done in the world.

Krithika Shankarraman：他们想与 Thrive 合作的原因不是因为我们将过去的经验带到桌面上，而是因为他们正在尝试做一些世界上从未做过的新事情。

And so those are engagements that are the most exciting is that you are building and going into uncharted territory alongside these founders.

因此，最令人兴奋的是，您正在与这些创始人一起构建并进入未知领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: I bet they're all like, "Krithika, what is the playbook for growing this B2B SaaS company?" And you're like, "Nope."

Lenny Rachitsky：我敢打赌他们都会说，“Krithika，发展这家 B2B SaaS 公司的策略是什么？”你会说：“不。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Damn.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：该死。

But we got the framework that we talked about.

但我们得到了我们谈论的框架。

Okay, I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about just career advice for marketing people, whether it's early stage or later stage.

好吧，我想把范围缩小一点，谈谈对营销人员的职业建议，无论是早期阶段还是后期阶段。

You have this concept, the chameleon CMO.

你有这个概念，变色龙 CMO。

Talk about that and why that's important for marketing folks to think about.

谈谈这一点以及为什么这对营销人员来说很重要。

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah.

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：是的。

The conventional wisdom for many CMOs is to be like a T-shaped marketer.

许多 CMO 的传统观念是像 T 型营销人员一样。

And what that means is go deep in one of these pillars that we talked about, product marketing, demand marketing, brand marketing, and that kind of becomes your calling card in the world.

这意味着深入我们谈到的这些支柱之一，产品营销、需求营销、品牌营销，而这将成为你在世界上的名片。

If a company needs brand expertise, they go for this kind of flavor of CMO.

如果一家公司需要品牌专业知识，他们就会选择这种风格的 CMO。

Or if a company needs to really grow their pipeline or their demand gen or their consumer growth, they go for more of a demand and growth-oriented CMO.

或者，如果一家公司需要真正扩大其管道、需求生成或消费者增长，他们会选择更多以需求和增长为导向的 CMO。

And I think this chameleon CMO concept is a bit of a novel one in that, again, I think modern marketing leaders have to be really good at a bunch of different things.

我认为这种变色龙 CMO 概念有点新颖，因为我认为现代营销领导者必须真正擅长一堆不同的事情。

Krithika Shankarraman: They have to be very analytical.

Krithika Shankarraman：他们必须非常善于分析。

They have to be best friends with the data science pod because they need to understand the impact of their marketing.

他们必须成为数据科学小组最好的朋友，因为他们需要了解营销的影响。

They, of course, have to bring creativity, but it is in service to the buyer journey.

当然，他们必须带来创造力，但它是为买家旅程服务的。

It is in service to revenue goals and goals that they share with the sales team or the product team and so on, so marketing operating in a silo is no longer a real possibility.

它服务于收入目标以及他们与销售团队或产品团队等共享的目标，因此在筒仓中进行营销不再是真正的可能性。

So the ability to diversify your interest, maybe going from T-shaped to comb-shaped is probably the right approach here so that you can go deeper in different domains when it is useful for the company through the diagnostic that you do.

因此，能够使你的兴趣多样化，也许从T型到梳型可能是正确的方法，这样当你通过你所做的诊断对公司有用时，你就可以更深入地研究不同的领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds very hard.

Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来很难。

I love this beneficial of the comb shape.

我喜欢这种有益的梳子形状。

It sounds like I have so much to learn, so many little skills to build.

听起来我有很多东西要学，有很多小技能需要培养。

Krithika Shankarraman: Before AI can come in handy.

Krithika Shankarraman：在人工智能派上用场之前。

Some of the most brand marketers can become very analytical with the support of a tool like ChatGPT.

在 ChatGPT 等工具的支持下，一些最有品牌的营销人员可以变得非常善于分析。

If your eyes glaze over when you look at giant dumps of CSVs, it's nice to have a partner that is nonjudgmental to kind of push your thinking and to help you understand the details of the data behind the brand work that you might be doing, or vice versa.

如果您在看到大量 CSV 时目光呆滞，那么很高兴有一个不带偏见的合作伙伴来推动您的思考并帮助您了解您可能正在做的品牌工作背后的数据细节，反之亦然。

If you're a very creative product marketer, a very analytical growth marketer, you can work with ChatGPT to be more of a brainstorm partner and really push your thinking on the creative side.

如果您是一位非常有创意的产品营销人员，一位非常善于分析的增长营销人员，那么您可以与 ChatGPT 合作，成为更多的头脑风暴合作伙伴，并真正推动您的创意方面的思考。

So I think becoming a non T-shaped marketer is getting a little bit easier.

所以我认为成为一个非T型营销人员变得更容易了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。

A good segue to an AI question.

很好地解决了人工智能问题。

Hey, we got to talk about AI.

嘿，我们得谈谈人工智能。

One of your former colleagues, Kevin Garcia, wanted me to ask you something.

你的一位前同事凯文·加西亚 (Kevin Garcia) 要我问你一件事。

He suggested I ask you about taste and creativity in AI.

他建议我问你有关人工智能的品味和创造力的问题。

So he said that you're one of the best writers that he's ever worked with.

所以他说你是他合作过的最好的作家之一。

You combine technical backgrounds with creative taste.

您将技术背景与创意品味结合起来。

You do pottery, you should.

你会做陶艺，你应该这样做。

And you're a voracious reader.

你是一个贪婪的读者。

And he wanted just to poke at what you think about just how taste and creativity and writing change in the era of AI.

他只是想探究一下你对人工智能时代品味、创造力和写作如何变化的看法。

Krithika Shankarraman: I think it's going to become so much more important.

Krithika Shankarraman：我认为它会变得更加重要。

First of all, I will say I am not a ChatGPT hyphen person.

首先，我要说我不是一个 ChatGPT 连字符人。

I was an em dasher well before it became a ChatGPT thing.

在 Em dasher 成为 ChatGPT 之前我就已经是一名 em dasher 了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Me too.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我也是。

Me too.

我也是。

I hate that.

我讨厌那样。

But just for people don't know, people are filtering out em dashes, right?

但只是人们不知道，人们正在过滤破折号，对吗？

Because they think ChatGPT is the only thing using em dashes?

因为他们认为 ChatGPT 是唯一使用破折号的东西？

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, and I don't know what to do about it because this is such a core part of my identity, but-

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，我不知道该怎么办，因为这是我身份的核心部分，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a big statement, the em dash.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个重要的声明，em dash。

Krithika Shankarraman: To take a step back though, I think if anything, taste is going to become a distinguishing factor in the age of AI because there's going to be so much drivel that is generated by AI, can be generated by AI, that power is at anyone's fingertips.

Krithika Shankarraman：不过，退一步说，我认为，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是品味将成为人工智能时代的一个显着因素，因为人工智能会产生大量胡言乱语，人工智能也可能产生这种胡言乱语，任何人都可以触手可及。

But truly, the companies that are going to distinguish themselves are the ones that show their craft.

但事实上，那些能够脱颖而出的公司是那些展示自己技术的公司。

That they show their true understanding of the product, the true understanding of their customer, and connect the two in meaningful ways.

他们表现出对产品的真正理解，对客户的真正理解，并以有意义的方式将两者联系起来。

If they can use AI to augment their efforts to make that happen, that's better than them subsuming their efforts.

如果他们可以使用人工智能来增强他们的努力以实现这一目标，那就比他们将自己的努力纳入其中更好。

So to build taste, there's plenty of past episodes that you yourself have recorded that get into building that work.

因此，为了培养品味，你自己录制了很多过去的剧集来构建这部作品。

But to me, that is going to be a real differentiator for not only great marketers but great companies to stand out in the field.

但对我来说，这不仅对于伟大的营销人员而且对于伟大的公司来说都将成为在该领域脱颖而出的真正差异化因素。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a concept that I love that recently I learned from Guillermo at Vercel.

Lenny Rachitsky：我最近从 Vercel 的 Guillermo 那里学到了一个我喜欢的概念。

He calls it exposure hours.

他称之为曝光时间。

That's when I asked him how to build taste, and that's kind of a value they have at their company is just increase your exposure hours to great stuff, because that is how you build taste.

就在那时，我问他如何培养品味，他们公司的一种价值就是增加你接触优秀事物的时间，因为这就是你培养品味的方式。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

It's such a simple actionable thing you can do.

这是您可以做的简单可行的事情。

Krithika Shankarraman: And at Thrive, we have this share channel, which is just sharing things that we're seeing out into the world.

Krithika Shankarraman：在 Thrive，我们有这个分享频道，它只是分享我们在世界上看到的东西。

It's not particularly deal flow news or competitive news or anything like that, but it is things that we have seen that resonated with us for whatever reason.

这并不是特别的交易流新闻或竞争新闻或类似的新闻，而是我们所看到的、无论出于何种原因引起我们共鸣的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines of not over-relying on ChatGPT, AI tools for writing and creativity, it feels like there's going to be a big issue with people just starting early in their career where they just never learn how to do the thing, and they just rely really heavily on ChatGPT and tools like that to write, to email, to communicate well.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这种思路，不要过度依赖 ChatGPT，即用于写作和创造力的人工智能工具，对于刚开始职业生涯的人们来说，这感觉会是一个大问题，他们永远不会学会如何做这件事，他们只是严重依赖 ChatGPT 和类似的工具来进行写作、发送电子邮件和进行良好的沟通。

I guess, do you have any advice for folks that are early career, just how to find that balance of not over-relying but still leveraging these tools?

我想，您对职业生涯早期的人有什么建议吗？如何找到不过度依赖但仍然利用这些工具的平衡？

Krithika Shankarraman: I think there's two schools of thought here.

Krithika Shankarraman：我认为这里有两种思想流派。

One is that sort of the domain, the discipline itself stays static and the way that you approach it changes over time, whether you're going at it in a manual way or an automated way or an AI augmented way.

一个是这样的领域，学科本身保持静态，而你处理它的方式会随着时间的推移而变化，无论你是以手动方式、自动化方式还是人工智能增强方式。

But I think the other school of thought, which I more believe in, is that the discipline itself is changing.

但我认为我更相信的另一种思想流派是学科本身正在发生变化。

And so what it means to market a product, what it means to show up as a fantastic operator is in and itself changing.

因此，营销产品的意义、展现优秀运营商的意义本身就在发生变化。

So if you're not leveraging some of these tools, you will be putting yourself at a disadvantage.

因此，如果您不利用其中一些工具，您将使自己处于不利地位。

But understanding the underlying mechanics, this is why I would still be a very firm believer in STEM education, is that you understand the fundamental concepts.

但了解其基本原理，这就是为什么我仍然坚定地相信 STEM 教育，因为你了解基本概念。

And then you can have a choice and optionality in how you decide to apply those concepts, but the concepts themselves have to be there in the foundations.

然后你可以选择如何应用这些概念，但概念本身必须存在于基础中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Easier said than done because there's all these tools now and you're just like, "Hey, I need to write a report for school.

说起来容易做起来难，因为现在有所有这些工具，你就像，“嘿，我需要为学校写一份报告。

I guess I could just, maybe this time I'll just ask ChatGPT to help me with this one."

我想我可以，也许这一次我会请 ChatGPT 帮助我解决这个问题。”

Krithika Shankarraman: Yeah, the mindset of learning has to be maybe the one that we have to really imbue as a value.

Krithika Shankarraman：是的，学习的心态可能是我们必须真正灌输的一种价值观。

Because being of that growth mindset, if you go to school just to earn the grades or to finish the coursework, it's a very different mindset than if you go to school to learn those concepts and to understand how to apply them.

因为具有成长心态，如果你去学校只是为了获得成绩或完成课程作业，那么这与你去学校学习这些概念并了解如何应用它们的心态非常不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's something that stuck with me from my chat with Toby Lutke from Shopify.

Lenny Rachitsky：在与 Shopify 的 Toby Lutke 的聊天中，这一点一直困扰着我。

We were chatting about just what is the most important things to incubate in your child?

我们正在讨论对您的孩子来说最重要的事情是什么？

And his answer I loved, which is just, "Curiosity."

我喜欢他的回答，那就是“好奇心”。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and that's what you're kind of speaking to is just if you're curious about learning, you'll almost avoid some of these things or you'll use these tools in a really interesting way just to learn things more deeply.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这就是你所说的，如果你对学习感到好奇，你几乎会避免其中一些事情，或者你会以一种非常有趣的方式使用这些工具，只是为了更深入地学习东西。

Krithika Shankarraman: And that stays with you into your career, right?

Krithika Shankarraman：这会一直伴随着你的职业生涯，对吗？

Because you can either go into your career trying to get to that next ladder in the promotion rung or you can get there to bring a genuine curiosity to, what makes us different?

因为您可以在进入职业生涯时尝试进入晋升阶段的下一个阶梯，也可以带着真正的好奇心来了解我们的与众不同之处？

What makes our customers tick?

是什么让我们的客户满意？

And how do we find those unique insights that can unlock something that nobody else has?

我们如何找到那些独特的见解来解锁其他人没有的东西？

Lenny Rachitsky: That reminds me.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这让我想起了。

To sort of close out our conversation, I wanted to come back to pricing strategy.

为了结束我们的谈话，我想回到定价策略。

I have that in my notes here and I haven't gone back to it.

我在我的笔记中记下了这一点，但我没有再回头看它。

So let's focus on the AI and pricing strategy.

因此，让我们关注人工智能和定价策略。

Just say someone is trying to figure out pricing for their product and they have some kind of AI product.

假设有人正在尝试计算其产品的定价，并且他们有某种人工智能产品。

What are some tips, some piece of advice to think this through?

有哪些技巧和建议可以帮助您思考这个问题？

Any general frameworks you use?

您使用任何通用框架吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: Again, there's no playbook.

Krithika Shankarraman：再说一次，没有剧本。

I feel like it's such a non-answer, but I think the real answer is experimentation.

我觉得这不是答案，但我认为真正的答案是实验。

And we found this firsthand multiple times at Stripe, but also at Retool.

我们在 Stripe 和 Retool 上多次亲眼目睹了这一点。

I think there was a very visceral example where we decided to bring our free product into the hands of more users and sort of what was available in the free plan.

我认为有一个非常深刻的例子，我们决定将我们的免费产品带到更多用户手中，以及免费计划中提供的内容。

And then there was another one that we tested out as a pricing function where we decided to do something quite controversial, which is to take the thing that our sales team was gated on, a self-hosted version of Retool, and made that available self-serve to anybody who wanted it.

然后，我们测试了另一个作为定价功能的功能，我们决定做一些颇具争议的事情，即采用我们的销售团队所控制的东西，即 Retool 的自托管版本，并为任何需要它的人提供自助服务。

They didn't have to talk to a salesperson.

他们不必与销售人员交谈。

And that kind of blew up the funnel, right?

这有点炸毁了漏斗，对吗？

Because the amount of pipeline that the sales team saw had diminished considerably, but it also helped them focus up market, on higher ACV deals.

因为销售团队看到的管道数量大幅减少，但这也帮助他们专注于更高的 ACV 交易市场。

Krithika Shankarraman: And so that trade-off is really hard to make, so the only way we could do it was through experimentation and piloting to build conviction.

Krithika Shankarraman：因此，这种权衡确实很难做出，所以我们能做到这一点的唯一方法是通过实验和试点来建立信念。

So I would say AI is no different in that you kind of have to test the market to see what works.

所以我想说人工智能没有什么不同，因为你必须测试市场才能知道什么是有效的。

Is it a seed-based model?

它是基于种子的模型吗？

Is that where people are deriving value?

这是人们获取价值的地方吗？

Or is the way that they speak about the value of the product something quite different?

或者他们谈论产品价值的方式完全不同吗？

Is it hours saved?

节省了几个小时吗？

Is it the amount of things that they could do now that they couldn't do before?

是他们现在能做的事情数量是以前做不到的吗？

And so there might be a metric there to go off of, and I don't think anyone solved it, especially with agents coming into play.

因此，可能存在一个衡量标准，但我认为没有人解决这个问题，尤其是在代理发挥作用的情况下。

How you pay for AI workers is going to be very different.

为人工智能员工支付报酬的方式将会非常不同。

What is that unit of completion for things like code generators?

代码生成器之类的完成单位是什么？

It's going to be a Wild, Wild West before we come up with something that is as internalized now as seed-based pricing or usage-based pricing.

在我们想出像基于种子的定价或基于使用的定价这样内化的东西之前，这将是一个狂野的西部。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wild indeed.

Lenny Rachitsky：确实很狂野。

I want to actually follow this insight you had around Retool.

我想真正遵循您对 Retool 的见解。

That's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Yeah, so you opened up self-hosted Retool.

是的，所以你打开了自托管的 Retool。

What was the insight there, because this might be useful to people, that convinced you to play with that?

那里的洞察是什么，因为这可能对人们有用，说服你去玩它？

Seems like a big deal change to how you price and do trials.

定价和试验方式似乎发生了重大变化。

Krithika Shankarraman: There were two guiding principles here.

Krithika Shankarraman：这里有两个指导原则。

One is, do people actually want to talk to sales before they get a self-hosted thing?

一是，人们在获得自托管产品之前真的想与销售人员交谈吗？

It's sort of like the SSO attacks, right?

这有点像 SSO 攻击，对吗？

Is that really the thing that you want to gate your value on?

这真的是你想要衡量自己价值的东西吗？

So, that was one.

所以，这就是其中之一。

And so we saw a lot of demand from smaller customers that still wanted self-hosted for a variety of reasons, because they worked in regulated industries or they worked with very private data and PII.

因此，我们看到小型客户的大量需求，他们出于各种原因仍然希望自行托管，因为他们在受监管的行业工作，或者使用非常私密的数据和 PII。

And so it wasn't just something that was, "Hey, if you have 10,000 employees at your company and you're an enterprise, you want self-hosted." It was that for a variety of different reasons, regardless of your company size, you might want self-hosted.

因此，这不仅仅是“嘿，如果您的公司有 10,000 名员工，并且您是一家企业，那么您需要自我托管。”出于各种不同的原因，无论您的公司规模如何，您可能都需要自托管。

So that insight kind of led us to say, "Hey, where is the delineation here?

因此，这种洞察力让我们说：“嘿，这里的轮廓在哪里？

Because the sales team should be talking to larger customers, landing larger deals." And so to align those two was one of the driving principles.

因为销售团队应该与更大的客户交谈，达成更大的交易。”因此，将两者结合起来是驱动原则之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Two final questions before we get to our very exciting lighting around.

在我们开始讨论令人兴奋的灯光之前，还有最后两个问题。

I'm going to take you to a couple of recurring segments on this podcast.

我将带您观看此播客中的几个重复出现的片段。

The first is AI Corner.

第一个是AI角。

And with AI Corner, what I try to get to is some way that you have figured out to use an AI tool in your work to do better work or do faster work, to be more efficient.

通过人工智能角，我试图找到的是你在工作中使用人工智能工具来更好地完成工作或更快地完成工作、提高效率的某种方式。

Is there something there that you could share?

有什么可以分享的吗？

And if not, that's also totally cool.

如果没有，那也很酷。

Krithika Shankarraman: Ooh, it is hard to pick because there's not many things I don't use AI for these days, and oftentimes it's a catalyst and an accelerant to the work that I'm already doing.

Krithika Shankarraman：哦，这很难选择，因为这些天我没有很多事情不使用人工智能，而且通常它是我已经在做的工作的催化剂和促进剂。

But I think I can actually unlock my ability to talk to dozens of companies across the Thrive portfolio in any given week, and the ability to get deep on their context, their environment, their competitive landscape.

但我认为我实际上可以在任何一周内与 Thrive 投资组合中的数十家公司进行交谈，并深入了解他们的背景、环境和竞争格局。

We can do that because of the tools and the products that Thrive has invested in from an engineering perspective.

我们之所以能够做到这一点，是因为 Thrive 从工程角度投资了工具和产品。

So we have internal tools that are driven with AI that give us a lot of insights and access to expertise for these companies so we can show up as more meaningful partners in a day-to-day basis.

因此，我们拥有由人工智能驱动的内部工具，可以为我们提供大量见解并获得这些公司的专业知识，这样我们就可以在日常工作中成为更有意义的合作伙伴。

Krithika Shankarraman: So I think the ability to mix AI tooling then accelerates work that you're already doing, and then AI-based tools that unlock superpowers that wouldn't otherwise be available to you unless you're going deep into Google Groups archives or talking to people across the organization to pull out things that are inside of their brain.

Krithika Shankarraman：所以我认为混合人工智能工具的能力可以加速你已经在做的工作，然后基于人工智能的工具可以解锁你无法获得的超能力，除非你深入谷歌网上论坛档案或与整个组织的人员交谈以提取他们大脑中的东西。

That kind of institutional knowledge being made more accessible by AI is actually more powerful sometimes than the tools themselves.

人工智能使这种机构知识变得更容易获取，有时实际上比工具本身更强大。

And in fact, even at OpenAI, it's one of the things that we advised most enterprises to invest in first is their own operational efficiency rather than just the AI magic dust they could sprinkle on top of their product experience for their customers.

事实上，即使在 OpenAI，我们建议大多数企业首先投资的事情之一就是他们自己的运营效率，而不仅仅是他们可以为客户的产品体验撒上 AI 魔粉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Final segment of the podcast we call Fail Corner.

播客的最后一部分我们称之为“失败角”。

And the idea here is we have all these amazing guests, all these super successful people on the podcast, all these stories of epic wins and nothing but success.

这里的想法是我们有所有这些令人惊叹的嘉宾，播客中所有这些超级成功的人，所有这些史诗般的胜利的故事，除了成功之外什么也没有。

And I think in reality, that's not the case.

我认为现实情况并非如此。

And it's important for people to hear that things aren't always up and to the right and always win, win, win.

对于人们来说，重要的是要听到事情并不总是向好的方向发展，并且总是赢、赢、赢。

Is there a story from your career you can share where things didn't work out and what you learned from that experience?

在您的职业生涯中，是否有一个故事可以分享，其中哪些事情没有成功，以及您从这次经历中学到了什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: And again, this question's hard because there's so many things to choose from as potential examples here.

Krithika Shankarraman：再说一次，这个问题很难，因为这里有很多东西可供选择作为潜在的例子。

And you're absolutely right, Lenny, in that most careers are not the sort of linear journeys that are reflected on somebody's LinkedIn profile.

莱尼，你说得完全正确，大多数职业都不是某人 LinkedIn 个人资料中反映的那种线性旅程。

No, I'll talk about a fantastic success, which is called Stripe Relay, which you probably...

不，我要谈谈一项巨大的成功，它被称为 Stripe Relay，您可能......

Oh, I'm just kidding because nobody remembers it.

哦，我只是开玩笑，因为没有人记得它。

It was ahead of its market.

它领先于市场。

We launched it back in 2014.

我们早在 2014 年就推出了它。

It was supposed to be the platform with which e-commerce companies would tap into social commerce.

它本来应该是电子商务公司进军社交商务的平台。

The buy buttons if you remember that.

如果你还记得的话，就是购买按钮。

And it launched to a lot of fanfare, but then eventually failed.

它一推出就引起了很大的轰动，但最终失败了。

It didn't produce the sort of revenue or the numbers that we had expected.

它没有产生我们预期的收入或数字。

Krithika Shankarraman: And the understanding here was that as much as one side of the marketplace, or you might have some conviction that you need to put something into the market for a particular moment in time, the timing of the market really matters.

Krithika Shankarraman：这里的理解是，尽管市场的一方面，或者你可能坚信你需要在特定时刻将某些东西投入市场，但市场的时机确实很重要。

And the timing of multiple parties coming together to make a platform work really matters.

多方齐心协力使平台发挥作用的时机确实很重要。

And so the learning here was we hadn't gone deep enough into the market dynamics.

因此，我们学到的教训是，我们对市场动态的了解还不够深入。

We hadn't done enough user research.

我们没有做足够的用户研究。

Did people really want this?

人们真的想要这个吗？

And if they did, what were their alternatives?

如果他们这样做了，他们的选择是什么？

What was the stacks that they were operating in?

他们操作的堆栈是什么？

And would they adopt a net new tool versus one that integrated into existing systems directly like their e-commerce inventory management systems and so on?

他们是否会采用一种全新的工具，而不是直接集成到现有系统（如电子商务库存管理系统等）中的工具？

And so for that reason, I think, again, it was ahead of its market and ahead of its time, but a clear flop regardless of the effort that we put into that launch.

因此，出于这个原因，我认为，它再次领先于市场和时代，但无论我们为这次发布付出了多少努力，它都明显失败了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of when Kevin Weil was on the podcast talking about Libra, which was his cryptocurrency project that Facebook ran, and he's just like, "Okay, that was a terrible time to launch something like that where people trusted Facebook the least in our history." And now may be a good time to try something like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起 Kevin Weil 在播客上谈论 Libra 时，Libra 是 Facebook 运行的他的加密货币项目，他只是说，“好吧，那是推出这样的东西的糟糕时机，人们在我们历史上最不信任 Facebook。”现在可能是尝试类似事情的好时机。

Basically, a cryptocurrency platform to send money internationally for free.

基本上，这是一个免费国际汇款的加密货币平台。

What a dream that would be.

那将是多么美好的梦想啊。

Okay.

好的。

Krithika, is there anything else you wanted to share or maybe something you wanted to remind people of from what we've talked about?

Krithika，您还有什么想分享的吗？或者您想从我们谈论的内容中提醒人们什么？

Just to leave folks with a final nugget before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

只是为了在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前给大家留下最后的金块。

Krithika Shankarraman: If there's one thing that folks take away, I hope it is that they know that there isn't one clear answer to any of the marketing problems.

Krithika Shankarraman：如果人们要带走一件事，我希望他们知道，任何营销问题都没有一个明确的答案。

It seems like there's a playbook for everything, there is a framework for everything, but the reality is the work is hard.

似乎一切都有一个剧本，一切都有一个框架，但现实是工作很困难。

You have to spend the hours and the time to really understand your customer, and there is no replacement for that, and there isn't going to be even with the advent of AI.

你必须花费大量的时间和时间来真正了解你的客户，这是无可替代的，即使人工智能的出现也不会替代。

And the other part of it is to deeply understand your product as well.

另一部分是深入了解您的产品。

What are you bringing to the table?

你要带来什么？

And not just your product, but your company's values, your unique approach that you're bringing to the table.

不仅仅是您的产品，还有您公司的价值观以及您所提出的独特方法。

And really be intentional and thoughtful about that because in the absence of that, nothing is going to be a substitute to bring that combination of ingredients together.

对此要真正有意识和深思熟虑，因为如果没有这一点，没有什么可以替代将这些成分组合在一起。

Lenny Rachitsky: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

We have five questions for you.

我们有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Krithika Shankarraman: On the professional side, one book that I recommend to most people is April Dunford's book on positioning called Obviously Awesome.

Krithika Shankarraman：在专业方面，我向大多数人推荐的一本书是 April Dunford 的关于定位的书，名为“Beyond Awesome”。

She does a great job breaking down how to position a product from scratch if you've never had to do that, and she's just so great for her real talk.

如果你从来没有这样做过，她很好地分解了如何从头开始定位产品，而且她的真实演讲非常出色。

So, really highly recommend that.

所以，真的强烈推荐。

And then I love fiction, so I would say one of the best reads in the last couple years has been Madeline Miller's Circe, which is a retelling of a Greek myth.

然后我喜欢小说，所以我想说过去几年最好的读物之一是玛德琳·米勒的《喀耳刻》，它重述了希腊神话。

Lyrical prose, beautiful writing, highly recommend.

抒情散文，文笔优美，强烈推荐。

Lenny Rachitsky: Love the combo.

Lenny Rachitsky：喜欢这个组合。

April Dunford, we're huge fans of her on the podcast.

阿普丽尔·邓福德（April Dunford），我们是她播客的超级粉丝。

She's been on twice.

她已经上过两次了

I think her book is in my background.

我认为她的书是我的背景。

We'll link to her episodes.

我们将链接到她的剧集。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。

Okay.

好的。

So cool.

太酷了。

Yeah, she's the best.

是的，她是最好的。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: I'm really late to the game, but I'm finally catching up on Severance.

Krithika Shankarraman：我真的迟到了，但我终于赶上了 Severance。

So, no spoilers, but I'm about halfway through the first season.

所以，没有剧透，但我已经看完了第一季的一半。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。

It's hard to weigh the spoilers, but yeah, keep going.

很难权衡剧透，但是，是的，继续吧。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: Granola for meeting notes because, all right, I love taking meeting notes as a way to stay engaged in the conversation and to pay a lot of attention, but I also know I'm furiously typing away.

Krithika Shankarraman：格兰诺拉麦片用于会议记录，因为，好吧，我喜欢做会议记录，以此作为保持参与对话和集中注意力的一种方式，但我也知道我正在疯狂地打字。

And so the ability to augment my notes and bullet points has been a game changer.

因此，增强我的笔记和要点的能力已经改变了游戏规则。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's two guests in a row that said Granola, and I'll give a plug.

Lenny Rachitsky：连续两位客人都说格兰诺拉麦片，我就给个塞子。

You get a year free of Granola if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年的免费格兰诺拉麦片。

For not just you, but your whole company up to some limit.

不仅适合您，而且在一定程度上适合您的整个公司。

Check out lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle, and sign up and get Granola.

查看 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击“捆绑”，然后注册并获取格兰诺拉麦片。

So cool.

太酷了。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's helping Granola, and me, I guess.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想这对格兰诺拉麦片和我都有帮助。

Yeah, it's great.

是的，太棒了。

Okay, thank you.

好的，谢谢。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find useful in work or in life?

您有最喜欢的人生格言吗？您认为这对工作或生活有用吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: My teams have now gotten tired of me saying this, but I say it all the time, which is the delta between expectations and reality is the function for unhappiness.

Krithika Shankarraman：我的团队现在已经厌倦了我这么说，但我一直这么说，期望与现实之间的差值是不快乐的函数。

And so it is much easier to change expectations than it is reality, so I tend to spend a lot of my energy making sure that expectations are set.

因此，改变期望比改变现实要容易得多，所以我倾向于花费大量精力来确保设定期望。

Not just with customers when it comes to our external marketing, but internally with stakeholders, project partners, and even within the team so that they understand what are some of the trade-offs that we're making, or why we're making certain decisions.

不仅在外部营销方面与客户进行交流，而且在内部与利益相关者、项目合作伙伴甚至团队内部进行交流，以便他们了解我们正在做出的一些权衡，或者我们为什么要做出某些决定。

So I could not espouse that philosophy enough.

所以我无法充分拥护这一理念。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that this isn't, because I think when people first hear that it's about your own happiness, but I love that it's about other people perceiving how a something did and setting their expectations correctly.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢事实并非如此，因为我认为当人们第一次听到它是关于你自己的幸福时，但我喜欢它是关于其他人感知某件事是如何做的并正确设定他们的期望。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

Okay, we've already talked about the em dash, but I want to ask you again.

好的，我们已经讨论过 em dash，但我想再问你一次。

What I'm finding is, so the story here is basically people have discovered ChatGPT's using em dashes a lot, which are these long dashes that you have to use special couple letters on the keyboard to use.

我发现，这里的故事基本上是人们发现 ChatGPT 经常使用长破折号，这些长破折号你必须在键盘上使用特殊的几个字母才能使用。

I'm a huge...

我是一个巨大的...

I use these all the time, and people are starting to filter them out on Twitter because they're assuming it's generated by ChatGPT.

我一直在使用这些，人们开始在 Twitter 上过滤掉它们，因为他们假设它是由 ChatGPT 生成的。

There's content that has em dashes they assume isn't real.

有些内容带有破折号，他们认为这些内容不是真实的。

Will you continue using em dashes in spite of all this?

尽管如此，您还会继续使用破折号吗？

Krithika Shankarraman: I have begrudgingly reduced my usage of em dashes-

Krithika Shankarraman：我不情愿地减少了破折号的使用-

Krithika Shankarraman: ...

克里西卡·尚卡拉曼：...

but you will not pry them out of my cold dead hands if you tried.

但如果你尝试的话，你是无法把它们从我冰冷、死气沉沉的手中撬开的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man, me too.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计，我也是。

I don't even know.

我什至不知道。

It's like command, options, dash or something to even put it in there.

它就像命令、选项、破折号或者其他东西，甚至可以把它放在那里。

Krithika Shankarraman: No, it's option, shift, minus.

Krithika Shankarraman：不，这是选项、移位、减号。

Lenny Rachitsky: I have to type it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我必须打字。

I can't conceptualize in my head.

我无法在脑海中概念化。

Yeah, and then there's actual rules for when an em dash is the right thing versus, there's a middle-

是的，然后有一个实际的规则来规定什么时候长破折号是正确的，还有一个中间的-

Krithika Shankarraman: Em dash and the Oxford comma, the two core tenets of my toolbox.

Krithika Shankarraman：破折号和牛津逗号是我工具箱的两个核心原则。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is an Oxford comma where you add the comma at the end or you don't?

Lenny Rachitsky：牛津逗号是在末尾添加逗号还是不添加逗号？

Is that the-

那是不是——

Krithika Shankarraman: You keep the comma at the end.

Krithika Shankarraman：你把逗号放在最后。

You must.

你必须。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I'm all for that, too.

我也完全赞成。

It looks so weird without it.

没有它看起来很奇怪。

But there's also another, like a shorter not em dash.

但还有另一种，比如较短的非破折号。

I guess it's called something else, right?

我猜它有别的名字，对吗？

There's like-

有这样的——

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，好的。

I love that you know all this.

我喜欢你知道这一切。

Okay.

好的。

Well, with that, Krithika, this has been so fun and so awesome.

好吧，Krithika，这真是太有趣了，太棒了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe work with you, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想与您联系，或者想与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Krithika Shankarraman: Krithix.com is where you'll find links to all my online presences.

Krithika Shankarraman：在 Krithix.com 上您可以找到我所有在线活动的链接。

And one of my personal missions this year is to meet as many of the up-and-coming marketing talents in the world.

今年我个人的任务之一就是会见世界上尽可能多的崭露头角的营销人才。

So anyone that you know is earlier career, ambitious, but really showing their impact at their organization, please introduce them to me.

因此，如果您认识的任何人职业生涯较早、雄心勃勃，但真正展现出对组织的影响力，请将他们介绍给我。

I would love to chat.

我很想聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then what's the best way for them to reach out to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么他们联系你的最佳方式是什么？

Is it just on your website?

仅在您的网站上吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We'll link to that in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Krithika, thank you so much for being here.

Krithika，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。