'Inside Devin: The AI engineer that''s set to write 50% of its company’s code this year | Scott Wu'

Kim Scott: If you say, "Do you have any feedback for me?" You're wasting your breath.

Kim Scott：如果你说，“你有什么反馈给我吗？”你这是在浪费呼吸。

The other person's going to say, "Oh no, everything's fine." The question that I like to ask is, "What could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me?" Do not write down my question because if you sound like Kim Scott and not like yourself, then other people are not going to believe you want the answer.

另一个人会说：“哦，不，一切都很好。”我想问的问题是：“我可以做什么或停止做什么才能让与我一起工作变得更容易？”不要写下我的问题，因为如果你听起来像金·斯科特而不像你自己，那么其他人不会相信你想要答案。

It needs to sound authentic to you, and if everybody can write down their question, who they're going to ask it of and then pop it into their calendar right now, this will be one of the most productive podcasts in all of podcast land.

它需要对你来说听起来很真实，如果每个人都可以写下他们的问题，他们要问谁，然后立即将其放入他们的日历中，这将是所有播客领域中最有生产力的播客之一。

Lenny: Today my guest is Kim Scott.

莱尼：今天我的客人是金·斯科特。

Kim is the author of Radical Candor, which is the single most referenced book on this podcast.

Kim 是《Radical Candor》的作者，这是该播客中引用次数最多的一本书。

The book has sold over 1 million copies, has been translated into twenty-three languages.

该书已售出超过100万册，已被翻译成二十三种语言。

It was such an honor to have Kim on the podcast.

Kim 加入播客真是太荣幸了。

Prior to this book, Kim was a CO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter and many other tech companies.

在本书出版之前，Kim 曾在 Dropbox、Qualtrics、Twitter 和许多其他科技公司担任 CO 教练。

She was a member of the faculty at Apple University.

她是苹果大学的教员。

Before that, she led AdSense, YouTube and DoubleClick teams at Google.

在此之前，她曾领导 Google 的 AdSense、YouTube 和 DoubleClick 团队。

Prior to that, Kim managed a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond cutting factory in Moscow.

在此之前，Kim 在科索沃管理一家儿科诊所，并在莫斯科创办一家钻石切割工厂。

She's also working on a new book that you can pre-order now called Radical Respect.

她还在写一本新书《激进的尊重》（Radical Respect），现在可以预订。

In our conversation, we get very practical and very tactical about practicing radical candor.

在我们的谈话中，我们对于实行彻底的坦诚变得非常实际和非常有策略。

Kim briefly describes the core idea, shares, language and phrases and words you can use to get better at practicing radical candor.

Kim 简要描述了您可以用来更好地实践彻底坦诚的核心思想、分享、语言以及短语和单词。

Lenny: She shares tips for people-pleasers like myself.

莱尼：她为像我这样讨人喜欢的人分享了一些技巧。

Also, a lot of very concrete advice for how to get feedback.

此外，还有很多关于如何获得反馈的非常具体的建议。

Also, what to do if your culture is on the ruinous empathy side of the spectrum, or even worse, obnoxious aggression and so much more.

另外，如果你的文化属于毁灭性的同理心，或者更糟糕的是，令人讨厌的侵略等等，该怎么办？

I guarantee listening to this episode will make you a better leader and a better employee.

我保证听这集会让你成为更好的领导者和更好的员工。

With that, I bring you Kim Scott after a short word from our one featured sponsor for this episode.

在我们本集的一位特色赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了金·斯科特。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

Lenny: With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

Lenny：借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

And it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working.

这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作。

So true collaboration is finally possible.

因此，真正的合作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何限制。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never-ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

进行产品管理的旧方法是重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/Lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/Lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/Lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/Lenny。

Lenny: Kim, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：金，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Kim Scott: Thank you for having me.

金·斯科特：谢谢你邀请我。

I'm excited for our conversation.

我对我们的谈话感到很兴奋。

Lenny: Your book, Radical Candor is the single most recommended book on this podcast.

莱尼：你的书《激进的坦率》是这个播客上最受推荐的一本书。

I don't know if you know this podcast well, but at the end of the podcast, I ask every guest, "What are two or three books you recommend most to other people?" And your book has come up the most of any book mentioned on the podcast.

我不知道你是否熟悉这个播客，但在播客的最后，我问每一位嘉宾，“你最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？”在播客中提到的所有书籍中，你的书出现的次数最多。

Kim Scott: Amazing.

金·斯科特：太棒了。

Well, tell your listeners I love them and I'm grateful to them.

好吧，告诉你的听众我爱他们并且感谢他们。

Lenny: Okay, they'll hear this.

莱尼：好的，他们会听到的。

So I'm really excited to have you on chat about all the things that you teach and your book.

因此，我真的很高兴能与您讨论您所教授的所有内容和您的书。

For people that have heard the term Radical Candor, have maybe skimmed the book, maybe even read the book a while ago, but don't truly remember or understand the concept.

对于那些听说过“激进坦率”这个词的人，可能浏览过这本书，甚至可能不久前读过这本书，但并没有真正记住或理解这个概念。

Could you just spend just a few minutes giving a high level overview of the concept of Radical Candor?

您能否花几分钟对激进坦率的概念进行高度概述？

Kim Scott: Absolutely.

金·斯科特：当然。

Radical Candor is just what happens when you care personally and challenge directly at the same time.

当你关心个人并同时直接提出挑战时，就会发生彻底的坦诚。

And I think it's probably best understood by what it's not because we all fail on one of those two dimensions or both of them multiple times a day.

我认为最好的理解可能是“它不是什么”，因为我们每天都会在这两个维度之一或两个维度上多次失败。

So you can think about it as a two by two framework.

因此，您可以将其视为一个二乘二的框架。

On the vertical axis is care personally, the horizontal axis is challenge directly.

纵轴是个人关怀，横轴是直接挑战。

What happens when we remember to challenge directly, but we forget to show that we care personally.

当我们记得直接提出挑战，但却忘记表现出我们个人的关心时，会发生什么。

That is what I call obnoxious aggression, and it's really important to distinguish between radical candor and obnoxious aggression.

这就是我所说的令人讨厌的侵略，区分激进的坦率和令人讨厌的侵略非常重要。

I think one of the mistakes that people often make about, and I've gotten a lot, you write a book about feedback, you're going to get a lot of it, and I've heard a lot of feedback that sometimes teams will be rolling out the idea of Radical Candor and someone will charge into the room and say, "In the spirit of Radical Candor," and then they act like a garden variety jerk.

我认为人们经常犯的一个错误，我已经犯了很多，你写一本关于反馈的书，你会得到很多，我听到很多反馈，有时团队会推出激进坦率的想法，有人会冲进房间说，“本着激进坦率的精神”，然后他们表现得像个普通的混蛋。

Kim Scott: And that is not the spirit of Radical Candor.

金·斯科特：这不是激进坦诚的精神。

That's the spirit of obnoxious aggression.

这就是令人厌恶的侵略精神。

And obnoxious aggression is a big problem.

令人讨厌的攻击性是一个大问题。

It's a problem because it hurts other people.

这是一个问题，因为它伤害了其他人。

It's also a problem because it's inefficient.

这也是一个问题，因为它效率低下。

If I'm a jerk to you Lenny, then I'm going to send you into fight or flight mode and then you literally cannot hear what I'm saying, so I'm wasting my breath.

如果我对你来说是个混蛋，莱尼，那么我就会让你进入战斗或逃跑模式，然后你就根本听不到我在说什么，所以我在浪费我的呼吸。

But I don't know if this is true for you, but for me, there's a third problem.

但我不知道这对你来说是否属实，但对我来说，还有第三个问题。

And the third problem is that when I realize I've acted like a jerk, when I realize I've landed in obnoxious aggression, it's not actually my instinct to go the right way on care personally.

第三个问题是，当我意识到自己的行为像个混蛋时，当我意识到自己陷入了令人讨厌的攻击性时，实际上我个人并没有本能地走上正确的护理道路。

Instead, it's my instinct to go the wrong way on challenge directly and to pretend that I agree when I disagree, and then I wind up in the worst place of all, manipulative insincerity.

相反，我的本能是直接在挑战中走错路，当我不同意时假装我同意，然后我就会陷入最糟糕的境地，即操纵性的不真诚。

Kim Scott: And it's kind of fun to tell stories about obnoxious aggression and manipulative insincerity.

金·斯科特：讲述令人讨厌的侵略性和操纵性的不真诚的故事很有趣。

If you watch The Office or any show about problems at work or problems in any kind of relationship really, you're going to see a lot of episodes about obnoxious aggression and manipulative insincerity.

如果你真的观看《办公室》或任何有关工作问题或任何关系问题的节目，你会看到很多关于令人讨厌的攻击性和操纵性不诚实的剧集。

But I think the real rub comes and the fact that these, even though this is what we like to talk about, these two problems are what we like to talk about, these are not the most common problem.

但我认为真正的问题是，尽管这是我们喜欢谈论的，这两个问题也是我们喜欢谈论的，但这些并不是最常见的问题。

By far and away the most common problem occurs when we do remember to show that we care personally because you know what?

到目前为止，最常见的问题是当我们记得表现出我们个人的关心时，因为你知道吗？

Most people try to be nice people.

大多数人都试图成为好人。

So we do remember to show that we care personally, but we're so worried about not hurting someone's feelings or not offending them, that we fail to tell them something they'd be better off knowing in the long run.

因此，我们确实记得表现出我们个人的关心，但我们非常担心不伤害别人的感情或不冒犯他们，以至于我们无法告诉他们从长远来看他们最好知道的事情。

And that is what I call ruinous empathy.

这就是我所说的毁灭性的同理心。

So that is Radical Candor in a nutshell.

简而言之，这就是“激进坦诚”。

That's the TLDR.

这就是 TLDR。

But please do read.

但请务必阅读。

Lenny: Amazing and we'll link to a diagram of this two by two for people that aren't visual thinkers and want to actually see it.

莱尼：太棒了，我们将为那些不是视觉思考者但想要实际看到它的人链接到这个两两的图表。

So just to make it super clear, if you're challenging directly, basically being very candid with feedback, but it's not clear you care deeply about the person, you call that obnoxious aggression.

因此，为了说得非常清楚，如果你直接提出挑战，基本上是非常坦诚地提供反馈，但不清楚你是否深切关心这个人，你称之为令人讨厌的侵略。

Lenny: And if you make it clear, you care a lot about the person but aren't actually giving them direct candid feedback, you call that ruinous empathy.

莱尼：如果你说清楚，你非常关心这个人，但实际上并没有给他们直接坦诚的反馈，你称之为毁灭性的同理心。

Lenny: Which of these buckets do you find most people fall into?

莱尼：您发现大多数人属于以下哪一个类别？

Is there a percentage of people or companies?

有个人或公司的百分比吗？

Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean, I would say 90% of us make 90% of our mistakes in that ruinous empathy bucket.

Kim Scott：是的，我的意思是，我想说，我们 90% 的人 90% 的错误都是在那个毁灭性的同理心桶中犯的。

It's by far and away the most common problem.

这是迄今为止最常见的问题。

But I think all of us make mistakes in the other quadrants as well.

但我认为我们所有人在其他象限也会犯错误。

And very often we kind of, I think one of, if I'm going to offer some self-criticism of this framework, it's much easier to notice when one has been ruinously empathetic.

我想，如果我要对这个框架进行一些自我批评，我们常常会更容易注意到一个人是否具有毁灭性的同理心。

It's almost like, give yourself some critical feedback.

这几乎就像给自己一些批评性的反馈。

"I work too hard." But it's much harder to notice when we've been manipulatively insincere and obnoxiously aggressive.

“我工作太辛苦了。”但当我们表现出不真诚和令人讨厌的攻击性时，就很难注意到了。

And maybe I could have named those things because very often manipulative insincerity is sort of self-protective insincerity.

也许我可以说出这些东西，因为很多时候，操纵性的不诚实是一种自我保护的不诚实。

Very often obnoxious aggression is just extreme frustration.

很多时候，令人讨厌的攻击只是极度的挫败感。

So I want people to use this framework not to judge themselves or other people harshly, but like a compass to guide specific conversations with specific people to a better place and to help us understand when we're going in the wrong direction, which we are all bound to do on a daily basis.

因此，我希望人们使用这个框架，不要严厉地评判自己或他人，而是像指南针一样，将与特定人的特定对话引导到更好的地方，并帮助我们了解何时走错了方向，而我们每天都必然会这样做。

Lenny: I want to talk about all those things and also how to get better at these things.

莱尼：我想谈谈所有这些事情以及如何在这些事情上做得更好。

But before we do that, it's very hard to change.

但在我们这样做之前，很难改变。

And it's also hard just to challenge directly innately, it's hard for people to be candid, just to give people a little motivation to invest in this skill.

而且仅仅直接挑战天生也很难，很难让人坦诚，只是给人们一点动力去投资这项技能。

What sort of impact do you see when people develop the skill of being better at radical candor?

当人们培养出更加坦诚的技能时，你会看到什么样的影响？

Kim Scott: When we get better at radical candor?

金·斯科特：当我们变得更加坦诚时？

I mean, I'll tell you a story in fact about the impact it had on my life, some radical candor, but the sort of abstract answer to your question is we build better relationships and we do better work and we're more successful and we're happier.

我的意思是，我会告诉你一个关于它对我的生活产生的影响的故事，一些彻底的坦率，但对你的问题的抽象答案是我们建立更好的关系，我们做得更好，我们更成功，我们更快乐。

You ready for a story?

你准备好听故事了吗？

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Love stories.

爱情故事。

Okay.

好的。

So shortly after I joined Google, this was now a very long time ago, 2004, I had to give a presentation to the founders and the CEO about how the AdSense business was doing.

在我加入 Google 后不久，那是很久以前的事了，2004 年，我必须向创始人和首席执行官介绍 AdSense 业务的运作情况。

And I walked into the room and there in one corner of the room was one of the founders on an elliptical trainer wearing toe shoes and a bright blue spandex unitard, super tight, not what I was expecting or frankly wanting to see in the room.

我走进房间，房间的一个角落里有一位创始人，穿着椭圆机，穿着五趾鞋和亮蓝色氨纶紧身衣，超紧，不是我所期待或坦率地想在房间里看到的。

And there in the other corner of the room was the CEO doing his emails like his brain had been plugged into the machine.

房间的另一个角落里，首席执行官正在处理电子邮件，就像他的大脑已插入机器一样。

Kim Scott: So probably like you in such a situation, I felt a little bit nervous.

金·斯科特：所以可能像你一样，在这种情况下，我感到有点紧张。

How was I supposed to get these people's attention?

我该如何引起这些人的注意？

Luckily for me, the AdSense business was on fire.

对我来说幸运的是，AdSense 业务非常火爆。

And when I said how many new customers we had added, the CEO almost fell off his chair.

当我说我们增加了多少新客户时，首席执行官差点从椅子上摔下来。

"What did you say?

“你说什么？

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Do you need more engineers?

您需要更多工程师吗？

Do you need more marketing dollars?" So I'm thinking the meeting's going all right.

您需要更多营销资金吗？”所以我认为会议进展顺利。

In fact, I now believe that I am a genius.

事实上，我现在相信我是一个天才。

And I walked out of the room, I walked past my boss and I was expecting a high five a pat on the back.

我走出房间，走过我的老板，我期待着有人拍拍我的背，让我高高地打五分。

And instead she said to me, "Why don't you walk back to my office with me?" And I thought, Oh gosh, I screwed something up in there and I'm sure I'm about to hear about it.

相反，她对我说：“你为什么不和我一起走回我的办公室呢？”我想，哦天哪，我搞砸了一些东西，我确信我很快就会听到这件事。

And she began not by telling me what I had done wrong, but what had gone well in the meeting, not in the feedback sandwich.

她一开始并没有告诉我做错了什么，而是告诉我会议中进展顺利的部分，而不是反馈三明治中的部分。

Kim Scott: I think there's a less polite term for that.

Kim Scott：我认为有一个不太礼貌的术语来形容这一点。

I'm not sure how you feel about cussing on your podcast.

我不确定你对在播客上咒骂有何感想。

Lenny: It's acceptable, fully acceptable.

莱尼：可以接受，完全可以接受。

Kim Scott: Not in the shit sandwich since the word, but really seeming to mean what she said.

金·斯科特：从这个词开始就不是在狗屎三明治中，但似乎确实是她所说的。

But of course, all I wanted to do was hear about what I had done wrong.

但当然，我想做的就是听听我做错了什么。

And eventually she said to me, "You said um a lot in there, were you aware of it?" And with this, I braved a huge sigh of relief if that was all I had done wrong who really cared.

最后她对我说：“你在那里说了很多，你知道吗？”说到这里，我长长地松了一口气，如果这就是我做错的一切的话，谁真正在乎呢。

And I kind of made this brush off gesture with my hand.

我用手做出了这个拂去的手势。

I said, "Yeah, I know, it's a verbal tech.

我说：“是的，我知道，这是一种语言技术。

It's no big deal, really." And then she said to me, "I know this great speech coach.

这没什么大不了的，真的。”然后她对我说：“我认识这位伟大的演讲教练。

I bet Google would pay for it.

我打赌谷歌会为此付出代价。

Would you like an introduction?" And once again, I made this brush off gesture with my hand.

需要介绍一下吗？”我再次用手做了这个拂去的手势。

Kim Scott: I said, "Oh, I'm busy.

金·斯科特：我说，“哦，我很忙。

I don't have time for a speech coach.

我没有时间请演讲教练。

Didn't you hear about all these new customers?" And then she said to me, "I can tell when you do that thing with your hand, then I'm going to have to be a lot more direct with you.

你没听说过这些新顾客吗？”然后她对我说：“我可以看出你什么时候用手做那件事，然后我就必须对你更加直接。

When you say um every third word, it makes you sound stupid." Now she's got my full attention.

当你每三个字就说“嗯”时，听起来你就很蠢。”现在她得到了我的全部注意力。

And some people might say it was mean of her to say I sounded stupid, but in fact, it was the kindest thing that she could have done for me at that moment in my career because she knew me well enough to know that if she didn't use just those words with me, and by the way, this is a really important point, she never would've used those words with other people on her team who were perhaps a better listener than I was.

有些人可能会说她说我听起来很愚蠢，这太刻薄了，但事实上，这是她在我职业生涯的那一刻可以为我做的最善意的事情，因为她非常了解我，知道如果她不只对我使用这些话，顺便说一句，这是非常重要的一点，她永远不会对她团队中的其他人使用这些话，而他们可能比我更好的倾听者。

Kim Scott: But she knew me well enough.

金·斯科特：但她很了解我。

She cared personally enough to know that if she didn't use those words with me, I never would've gone to visit the speech coach and I wouldn't have learned that she was not exaggerating.

她个人非常关心，知道如果她不对我使用这些话，我永远不会去拜访演讲教练，我也不会知道她并没有夸大其词。

And this was news to me because I had raised millions of dollars for two different startups giving presentations.

这对我来说是新闻，因为我已经为两家不同的初创公司进行演讲筹集了数百万美元。

I thought I was pretty good at it.

我以为我很擅长。

And it really got me to thinking sort of why had no one told me.

这确实让我开始思考为什么没有人告诉我。

It was almost like I suddenly realized I'd been marching through my whole career with a giant hunk of spinach in between my teeth and nobody had had the common courtesy to tell me it was there.

就好像我突然意识到我的整个职业生涯一直在我的牙齿之间叼着一大块菠菜，而没有人有礼貌地告诉我它的存在。

So why had no one else told me.

那么为什么没有人告诉我呢。

But what was it about her leadership style that made it so seemingly easy for her to tell me?

但她的领导风格到底是什么让她看起来如此轻松地告诉我呢？

And as I thought about that, I realized it really came down to those two things.

当我想到这一点时，我意识到这实际上归结为这两件事。

Kim Scott: She cared personally and she challenged directly.

金·斯科特：她个人很关心，并且直接提出挑战。

She cared about me not just as an employee but as a human being.

她不仅关心我作为一名员工，而且关心我作为一个人。

For example, when my father was diagnosed with late stage cancer, I was devastated and she could tell that I was devastated.

例如，当我父亲被诊断出患有晚期癌症时，我很伤心，她也能看出来我很伤心。

And she said, "Kim, look, you go to the airport, fly home to Memphis, you need to be with your family.

她说：“金，听着，你去机场，飞回孟菲斯的家，你需要和你的家人在一起。

Your team and I will sit down and write your coverage plan." That's what great teams do for one another.

我和你的团队将坐下来制定你的承保计划。”这就是伟大的团队为彼此所做的事情。

And those were the kinds of things, that was the kind of thing that she did.

这些就是这样的事情，这就是她所做的那样的事情。

She couldn't do, of course, for all 5,000 people in her organization, no matter how talented you are, relationships don't scale.

当然，她无法为她组织中的所有 5,000 名员工做到这一点，无论你们多么有才华，关系都无法扩展。

But she did do those things for her direct reports and the people who she worked most closely with, all of us.

但她确实为她的直接下属以及与她最密切合作的人（我们所有人）做了这些事情。

Kim Scott: And when a leader treats their team, the people who they interact with on a day-to-day basis with that kind of real care, then it's much more likely that their direct reports in turn are going to treat their teams with real care.

金·斯科特：当领导者以真正的关怀对待他们的团队、与他们日常互动的人时，那么他们的直接下属也更有可能以真正的关怀对待他们的团队。

And that creates a culture of caring.

这创造了一种关怀文化。

And even though relationships don't scale, culture does scale.

尽管关系不会扩展，但文化却可以扩展。

So that was part of it.

这就是其中的一部分。

But of course there's also this challenge directly part which is equally as important.

当然，这个挑战也同样重要。

And I learned very quickly beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I screwed up, she was going to tell me and she was going to keep telling me until it penetrated my sometimes thick skull.

我很快就毫无疑问地了解到，如果我搞砸了，她会告诉我，她会一直告诉我，直到它穿透我有时厚重的头骨。

Lenny: I had a manager that was also very good at this.

莱尼：我有一位在这方面也很擅长的经理。

He was very good at just giving me very direct feedback, and I knew that he was only doing it because he cared about my future.

他非常擅长给我非常直接的反馈，我知道他这样做只是因为他关心我的未来。

To kind of follow this thread and get a little tactical, is there language or phrases or ways of communicating that you recommend people use to either challenge directly and avoid people getting defensive or make it clear you care deeply?

为了遵循这个思路并采取一些策略，您是否建议人们使用哪些语言、短语或沟通方式来直接挑战并避免人们采取防御措施，或者表明您非常关心？

Kim Scott: People always want me to give them a script.

金·斯科特：人们总是希望我给他们一个剧本。

And the problem with the script is that if I write it, you're going to sound like Kim Scott and not like yourself.

剧本的问题在于，如果我写它，你听起来就会像金·斯科特，而不是你自己。

And then people won't really think you mean what you're saying.

然后人们就不会真正认为你是认真的。

But I do think there are some important things to consider when having these conversations.

但我确实认为在进行这些对话时需要考虑一些重要的事情。

I think you want to go into the conversation, and by the way, everything I'm about to say applies to praise as much as it does to criticism.

我想你想进入对话，顺便说一句，我要说的一切都适用于赞扬，也适用于批评。

And I want to pause for a moment.

我想暂停一下。

That story is helpful because that's the kind of thing that has happened to so many of us, that's not unique to me.

这个故事很有帮助，因为这种事情发生在我们很多人身上，这并不是我独有的。

However, praise is even more important than criticism in terms of radical candor.

然而，就彻底的坦诚而言，赞扬比批评更重要。

Radical candor is not all about the boss giving the employee criticism.

彻底的坦诚并不只是老板对员工的批评。

It should always start with soliciting feedback and it should include more praise and criticism, but anyway, way without offering up shit sandwiches.

它应该总是从征求反馈开始，并且应该包括更多的赞扬和批评，但无论如何，不​​要提供狗屎三明治。

Kim Scott: So anyway, I think that the important thing for these conversations, these sort of two-minute impromptu moments of management, is to go into the conversation being humble.

金·斯科特：所以无论如何，我认为对于这些对话，这种两分钟的即兴管理时刻来说，重要的是要以谦虚的态度进行对话。

To me, I call it candor and not truth because if I march into a room and I say, "Lenny, I'm going to tell you the truth." I'm kind of implying I've got a pipeline to God and you don't know anything.

对我来说，我称之为坦率，而不是真相，因为如果我走进一个房间，我说：“莱尼，我要告诉你真相。”我有点暗示我有一条通向上帝的管道，而你却一无所知。

And that's not what this is all about.

这并不是问题的全部。

This is a dialogue, not a monologue.

这是对话，不是独白。

So to me, candor implies here's how I understand the situation.

所以对我来说，坦率意味着我对这种情况的理解。

I'm also curious to know how you understand the conversation.

我也很好奇你是如何理解这段对话的。

So you want to go in being humble, you might be wrong, and that's totally fine.

所以你想保持谦虚，你可能是错的，但这完全没问题。

Omniscience is not a requirement for radical candor, thank heavens.

感谢上帝，全知并不是彻底坦诚的必要条件。

So you want to be humble.

所以你要谦虚。

You want to state your intention to be helpful.

您想表达您提供帮助的意图。

You want to remember in your own head and you want to make it explicit to the other person that you're telling them this to help them.

你想在自己的脑海中记住，并且你想向对方明确表示你告诉他们这些是为了帮助他们。

Kim Scott: You're not trying to be dominant or kick them in the shins or anything like that.

金·斯科特：你并不是想占据主导地位或踢他们的小腿或类似的东西。

You're telling them this because you care about them.

你告诉他们这些是因为你关心他们。

So you want to state your intention to be helpful.

所以你想表达你愿意提供帮助的意图。

You want to have these conversations right away, almost immediately.

您希望立即进行这些对话，几乎是立即进行。

I mean, there's exceptions to everything I'm saying.

我的意思是，我所说的一切都有例外。

None of this is absolute.

这些都不是绝对的。

But usually if I'm telling myself and Lenny, you can tell me if you have the same problem, but if I tell myself, Oh, I'm going to wait for a better moment to tell this person this thing, what I'm really saying is I'm never going to say.

但通常如果我告诉自己和莱尼，如果你们有同样的问题，你可以告诉我，但如果我告诉自己，哦，我会等待更好的时机告诉这个人这件事，我真正想说的是我永远不会说。

So if the purpose of praise is to tell people what to do more of, and the purpose of criticism is to tell them what to do less of, why wait.

因此，如果表扬的目的是告诉人们应该多做哪些事情，而批评的目的是告诉人们应该少做哪些事情，那么为什么还要等待呢？

So you want to do it immediately unless you are so upset that you're going to say it in a terrible way or the other person is so upset that they can't hear you.

所以你想立即这样做，除非你非常沮丧以至于你要用一种可怕的方式说出来，或者其他人非常沮丧以至于他们听不到你的声音。

But usually that's not the case.

但通常情况并非如此。

Kim Scott: You also want, and in the before times I used to say have these conversations in person.

金·斯科特：你也想，以前我常说亲自进行这些对话。

Now I say have these conversations synchronously and I'm going to recommend phone over video.

现在我说同步进行这些对话，我将推荐使用电话而不是视频。

There's a lot of evidence coming out of University of Chicago and probably other places, but that's the article I've read that there's more noise than signal in facial expressions and body language, especially if somebody is just a little square on a computer screen.

芝加哥大学和其他地方可能有很多证据，但我读过的那篇文章表明，面部表情和肢体语言中的噪音多于信号，尤其是当某人只是电脑屏幕上的一个小方块时。

But it also may be true in real life, like the phone actually may be one of our best communication innovations of all time because when you're talking to someone on the phone, you're listening to the words that they are saying to you, and that is really what you want to do in this moment.

但在现实生活中也可能是这样，就像电话实际上可能是我们有史以来最好的通信创新之一，因为当你在电话中与某人交谈时，你正在听他们对你说的话，而这正是你此时此刻真正想做的事情。

So make sure that you're having these conversations synchronously, because what you want to do next is gauge how it's landing.

因此，请确保您同步进行这些对话，因为您下一步要做的是衡量它的着陆方式。

Kim Scott: So I'll talk about that in a minute.

Kim Scott：我稍后会讨论这个问题。

And you can't gauge how something is landing if you're sending an email or a text, and Slack is just a feedback train wreck waiting to happen.

如果你发送电子邮件或短信，你无法判断事情是如何发生的，而 Slack 只是等待发生的反馈列车失事。

I once coached someone who kept giving feedback over Slack and I finally just quit coaching him.

我曾经指导过一个不断针对 Slack 提供反馈的人，最后我不再指导他了。

I was like, "If you keep making this mistake, I can't be your coach." So don't do that.

我当时想，“如果你继续犯这个错误，我就不能成为你的教练了。”所以不要这样做。

Take a moment to pick up the phone and call the person.

花点时间拿起电话给那个人打电话。

Go back to those old AT&T commercials when I was a kid.

回到我小时候那些古老的 AT&T 广告。

Reach out and touch someone.

伸出手去触摸某人。

You want to show you care.

你想表达你的关心。

Kim Scott: So let's review.

金·斯科特：让我们回顾一下。

You want to be humble, you want to be helpful, you want to do it immediately.

你想要谦虚，你想要提供帮助，你想要立即去做。

You want to do it in person or at least synchronously.

您想亲自进行或至少同步进行。

If you can't do it in person.

如果你不能亲自做的话。

You also want to praise in public and criticize in private, and you don't want to give people either praise or criticism about their personality.

你也想在公开场合表扬，在私下批评，你不想对人们的个性给予赞扬或批评。

So if you want to remember all that, it's HHIIPPP, two H's, two I's, kind of three P's depending on how you count.

因此，如果您想记住所有这些，那就是 HHIIPPP，两个 H，两个 I，三个 P，具体取决于您的计数方式。

Kim Scott: And so let's double-click though on this not about personality point.

Kim Scott：所以让我们双击这个与个性无关的点。

I think it's really important to remember that for both praise and criticism, you want to use sort of context, observation, result, next step.

我认为记住这一点非常重要，无论是表扬还是批评，你都需要使用上下文、观察、结果、下一步。

So context, in the meeting, observation, when you said um every third word, result, it made you sound stupid.

因此，在会议中，观察中，当你每隔三个词说“嗯”时，结果，这让你听起来很愚蠢。

Next step, go to the speech coach.

下一步，去找演讲教练。

Also is important for praise, in the meeting context, when you offered both sides of the argument, observation, result is it earned you credibility.

对于表扬也很重要，在会议背景下，当你提出双方的论点、观察时，结果就会为你赢得可信度。

Next step is do more of that.

下一步是做更多这样的事情。

So you can call it CORE, you can think about that as CORE.

所以你可以称之为核心，你可以将其视为核心。

I used to call it CORN, but I got some feedback that corn is like some shorthand for porn on TikTok.

我曾经称之为 CORN，但我得到一些反馈，玉米就像 TikTok 上色情内容的简写。

So I call it CORE instead, HIP CORE.

所以我称之为核心，HIP CORE。

Lenny: Wow, that is amazing.

莱尼：哇，太棒了。

Thank you for sharing all that.

感谢您分享这一切。

So the E at the end stands for?

那么最后的E代表什么？

Lenny: Oh, I see the E is the next, you skipped the N, clever.

莱尼：哦，我看到下一个是 E，你跳过了 N，聪明。

Kim Scott: Yes.

金·斯科特：是的。

I don't know, clever or ridiculous.

我不知道，聪明还是可笑。

Maybe I should just call it HIP CORN,

也许我应该叫它 HIP CORN，

Lenny: Right?

莱尼：对吗？

No, I think either one's great.

不，我认为两者都很棒。

So you share this example of the speaking example.

所以你分享这个口语例子的例子。

Maybe if we can do another example just to reinforce this framework.

也许我们可以再举一个例子来强化这个框架。

Kim Scott: Let's do a little ruinous empathy.

金·斯科特：让我们做一点毁灭性的同理心。

Kim Scott: How about that?

金·斯科特：那怎么样？

That is the mistake.

这就是错误。

I think that I am really focused in the book Radical Candor and also in my next book Radical Respect.

我认为我真正关注的是《激进坦诚》一书以及我的下一本书《激进尊重》。

That's the mistake I really want to eliminate.

这就是我真正想消除的错误。

Kim Scott: Because ruinous empathy creates this false harmony, which is really bad.

金·斯科特：因为毁灭性的同理心创造了这种虚假的和谐，这真的很糟糕。

So here's my ruinous empathy story.

这就是我毁灭性的同理心故事。

I had just hired this guy, we'll call him Bob, and I liked Bob a lot.

我刚刚雇用了这个人，我们称他为鲍勃，我非常喜欢鲍勃。

He was smart, he was charming, he was funny.

他很聪明，他很有魅力，他很有趣。

He would do stuff like we're at a manager offsite playing one of those endless get to know you games.

他会做一些事情，就像我们在场外与经理一起玩那些无休止的“了解你”游戏。

And everybody was getting more and more and more stressed out.

每个人的压力都越来越大。

So start up, we've got a lot going on.

所以开始吧，我们有很多事情要做。

And Bob was the guy who had the courage to raise his hand and to say, "I can tell everyone is getting stressed.

鲍勃是那个有勇气举手说：“我可以看出每个人都感到压力的人。

I want to get to know all of you.

我想认识你们所有人。

I've got an idea.

我有一个主意。

It'll help us do that and it'll be really fast."

它将帮助我们做到这一点，而且速度会非常快。”

Kim Scott: Whatever his idea was, if it was really fast, we were down with it.

Kim Scott：无论他的想法是什么，如果它真的很快，我们就会接受它。

And Bob says, "Let's just go around the table and confess what candy our parents used when potty training us." Really weird but really fast.

鲍勃说：“我们围着桌子转一圈，承认我们的父母在训练我们如厕时用了什么糖果。”真的很奇怪但是真的很快。

And then for the next 10 months, every time there was a tense moment in a meeting, Bob would whip out just the right piece of candy for the right person at the right moment.

接下来的 10 个月里，每次会议出现紧张时刻，鲍勃都会在正确的时间为正确的人拿出正确的糖果。

And we all remember that was the weirder thing.

我们都记得那是更奇怪的事情。

Like Hershey Kisses right here.

就像这里的好时之吻一样。

That was what my parents used to potty train me.

这就是我父母用来训练我如厕的方法。

Kim Scott: And so Bob was quirky, but he brought a little levity to the office.

金·斯科特：所以鲍勃很古怪，但他给办公室带来了一点轻松。

Everybody kind of loved working with Bob.

每个人都喜欢和鲍勃一起工作。

There was one problem with Bob.

鲍勃有一个问题。

He was doing terrible work.

他的工作很糟糕。

He would hand stuff into me and there was shame in his eyes.

他会把东西递给我，眼里充满羞愧。

He kind of knew it wasn't good enough.

他有点知道这还不够好。

He was very creative, but riddled with sloppy mistakes.

他非常有创造力，但也经常犯一些草率的错误。

And I would say something to Bob along the lines of, "Oh Bob, this is such a great start.

我会对鲍勃说这样的话：“哦鲍勃，这是一个很好的开始。

You're so awesome.

你太棒了。

We all love working with you.

我们都喜欢与您合作。

Maybe you can make it just a little bit better." So let's pause for a moment.

也许你可以让它变得更好一点。”让我们暂停一下。

Why did I say such a banal thing to Bob?

我为什么要对鲍勃说这么平庸的话？

I think part of the problem was that I liked Bob and I really didn't want to hurt his feelings.

我认为部分问题在于我喜欢鲍勃，我真的不想伤害他的感情。

Kim Scott: So that was the ruinous empathy part of why I said that.

金·斯科特：这就是我这么说的原因之一。

But also part of the problem was something more insidious, a little bit of manipulative insincerity, because Bob was popular and Bob was also sensitive kind of.

但问题的一部分是更阴险的，一点点操纵性的不真诚，因为鲍勃很受欢迎，而且鲍勃也很敏感。

And there was part of me that was afraid if I told Bob in no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly good enough, he would get upset.

我心里有些担心，如果我毫不含糊地告诉鲍勃他的工作还不够好，他会感到不安。

He might even start to cry and then everybody would think I was a big, you know what?

他甚至可能会开始哭泣，然后每个人都会认为我是个大人物，你知道吗？

So the part of me that was worried about my reputation as a leader, that was the manipulative insincerity part, the part of me that was worried about Bob's feelings, that was the ruinous empathy part.

因此，我担心自己作为领导者的声誉的部分是操纵性的不真诚部分，我担心鲍勃的感受的部分是毁灭性的同理心部分。

And this went on for 10 months, 10 long months, and I was so puzzled the whole time I couldn't understand what was going on.

这样的情况持续了10个月，漫长的10个月，我一直很困惑，不明白发生了什么。

I learned much later that one of the issues perhaps was that Bob was smoking pot in the bathroom three times a day, which maybe explained all that candy that he had at all times.

很久以后我才知道，问题之一可能是鲍勃每天在浴室里吸大麻三次，这也许可以解释他总是吃那么多糖果。

Kim Scott: But I didn't know any of that at the time.

Kim Scott：但当时我对此一无所知。

All I knew is that Bob was consistently doing bad work, but I wasn't really dealing with it.

我所知道的是鲍勃一直在做不好的工作，但我并没有真正处理它。

And eventually the inevitable happened.

最终不可避免的事情发生了。

I realized that if I didn't fire Bob, I was going to lose all my best performers because not only had it been unfair to Bob not to tell him, I also had been unfair to everyone on the team.

我意识到，如果我不解雇鲍勃，我就会失去所有表现最好的员工，因为不告诉鲍勃不仅对他不公平，而且我对团队中的每个人也不公平。

And they were frustrated.

他们很沮丧。

Their deliverables were late because his deliverables were late.

他们的交付成果迟到了，因为他的交付成果迟到了。

They weren't able to do their best work because they were having to spend so much time redoing his work.

他们无法做到最好，因为他们不得不花费大量时间重做他的工作。

Kim Scott: And the people who were best at their jobs were going to quit because they wanted to be able to do their best work.

金·斯科特：那些最擅长工作的人会辞职，因为他们希望能够把工作做到最好。

They were going to go to a different company where they could do their best work.

他们要去另一家公司，在那里他们可以尽自己最大的努力。

And so I sat down to have a conversation with Bob that I should have begun frankly 10 months previously.

于是我坐下来与鲍勃进行了一次坦率的对话，我本来应该在 10 个月前就开始的。

And when I finished explaining to him where things stood, he kind of pushed his chair back from the table.

当我向他解释完情况后，他把椅子从桌子上推了回来。

He looked me right in the eye and he said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And as that question was going around in my head with no good answer, he looked at me again and he said, "Why didn't anyone tell me?

他直视着我的眼睛说：“你为什么不告诉我？”当这个问题在我脑海中盘旋而没有好的答案时，他再次看着我说：“为什么没有人告诉我？

I thought you all cared about me." And now I realized that by not telling Bob, thinking I was being so nice, I'm having to fire him as a result.

我以为你们都很关心我。”现在我意识到，如果我认为自己太好了而没有告诉鲍勃，我就不得不解雇他。

Not so nice after all.

毕竟不太好。

But it was too late to say Bob because at this point even he agreed he should go because his reputation on the team was just shot.

但现在说鲍勃已经太晚了，因为此时连他也同意他应该离开，因为他在球队的声誉刚刚受到打击。

Kim Scott: All I could do in the moment was make myself a very solemn promise that I would never make that mistake again, and that I would do everything in my power to help other people avoid making that mistake.

金·斯科特：当时我能做的就是向自己郑重承诺，我再也不会犯同样的错误，并且我会尽我所能帮助其他人避免犯同样的错误。

It was so painful.

太痛苦了。

It was painful for me.

这对我来说很痛苦。

It was painful for Bob, much more painful for Bob actually, and it was bad for the whole team and it was bad for our investors.

这对鲍勃来说很痛苦，实际上对鲍勃来说更痛苦，这对整个团队和我们的投资者都不利。

We weren't getting results because of my ruinous empathy and ruinous empathy slash manipulative insincerity.

我们没有取得成果，是因为我毁灭性的同理心和毁灭性的同理心削减了操纵性的不真诚。

It's much harder to admit the manipulative insincerity part.

承认操纵性的不真诚部分要困难得多。

And that is really why I'm here talking to you because I want all of your listeners to avoid making that mistake because it's the most painful and the most common mistake that I think leaders and not just leaders, I mean all of us make this mistake in all of our relationships.

这就是我在这里与你们交谈的真正原因，因为我希望你们所有的听众都避免犯这个错误，因为这是我认为领导者最痛苦和最常见的错误，而不仅仅是领导者，我的意思是我们所有人在我们所有的关系中都会犯这个错误。

Lenny: I love that this also gives an example of the impact of getting better at this point of you'll lose not just the people that are not necessarily great, but also other high performers on the team because they're seeing people slip through the cracks that aren't amazing.

莱尼：我喜欢这也提供了一个例子，说明在这一点上变得更好的影响，你不仅会失去不一定优秀的人，还会失去团队中的其他高绩效人员，因为他们看到人们从不令人惊奇的裂缝中溜走。

And if you're not practicing this early, your team basically becomes not high performing.

如果你不这么早练习，你的团队基本上表现不佳。

Kim Scott: Yeah, exactly.

金·斯科特：是的，完全正确。

You're going to lose your top performers.

你将会失去表现最好的员工。

And I think very often people are afraid to tell someone on their team when their work isn't good enough because they're afraid of losing them.

我认为，当人们的工作不够好时，人们常常不敢告诉团队中的其他人，因为他们害怕失去他们。

But that's not a good reason.

但这不是一个好的理由。

You should be helping this person to improve.

你应该帮助这个人进步。

This person deserves to have a job where they can excel and you either help them excel on this team or you help them find a different job where they can excel, because everyone can do great work somewhere.

这个人应该拥有一份可以表现出色的工作，你要么帮助他们在这个团队中表现出色，要么帮助他们找到一份可以表现出色的不同工作，因为每个人都可以在某个地方做出出色的工作。

And Bob could have done great work.

鲍勃本来可以做得很好。

Maybe I would've helped him keep it to the weekends because he's very creative and very smart, but the floppy mistakes just got in the way of his ability to do his best work.

也许我会帮助他把它保留到周末，因为他非常有创造力而且非常聪明，但软弱的错误只是妨碍了他完成最佳工作的能力。

Lenny: So following that thread, I imagine the reason you didn't tell him early, and most people don't do this well, is many people are, you can maybe call them people pleasers.

莱尼：所以按照这个思路，我想你之所以没有早点告诉他，而大多数人都做得不好，是因为很多人都做得很好，你可以称他们为取悦者。

I'm a recovering people pleaser, I'll say.

我会说，我是一个正在康复的人取悦者。

It's just hard to give people hard feedback.

给人们提供严格的反馈是很困难的。

You want people to like you.

你希望人们喜欢你。

It's not a natural state for a lot of people.

对于很多人来说，这不是一种自然状态。

What do you find helps people get over this kind of need to be liked as a leader and helps them be more candid?

您发现什么可以帮助人们克服这种被领导者喜欢的需要并帮助他们变得更加坦诚？

Kim Scott: I think that one of the things that was helpful for me anyway, so you can tell me if it's helpful for you, was realizing that my job was not to be liked.

金·斯科特：我认为无论如何，对我有帮助的一件事是意识到我的工作不受欢迎，所以你可以告诉我这对你是否有帮助。

My job was to care about other people and to get out of my own head and to become others focused is what helped me kind of let go of the need to be liked.

我的工作是关心他人，摆脱自己的思维，以他人为中心，这帮助我放弃了被人喜欢的需要。

I think that also as a woman, I think there was something extra, as my teenage children would say, there was something extra for me because the sort of likability- competence bias that a lot of women face pushed me, especially early in my career, in the wrong direction on challenge directly.

我认为，作为一名女性，我认为还有一些额外的东西，正如我十几岁的孩子们会说的那样，对我来说有一些额外的东西，因为许多女性面临的那种可爱-能力偏见将我，特别是在我职业生涯的早期，直接推向了错误的方向。

Kim Scott: And it made it much harder for me to, because often I would say something and I would say it even more gently than my colleagues who were men, but people would say, "Ah, Kim is a real whatever." And they weren't saying, Kim is obnoxious.

金·斯科特：这让我很难做到这一点，因为我经常会说一些话，而且比我的男性同事说得更温和，但人们会说，“啊，金是一个真正的人。”他们并没有说，金很讨厌。

I was being unjustly accused of obnoxious aggression and it wasn't obnoxious or they were accusing me of being bossy or or abrasive or whatever.

我被不公正地指控为令人讨厌的侵略行为，但这并不令人讨厌，或者他们指责我专横或粗鲁或其他什么。

And it's really hard.

这真的很难。

I would also say when it comes to eliciting feedback, it's really important to be open to it and it's really important to separate the wheat from the chaff from the feedback you're getting.

我还想说，在征求反馈方面，保持开放态度非常重要，并且从收到的反馈中区分出麦子和谷壳也非常重要。

Lenny: So in this example of Bob, say you were to do it now, what would you do differently other than give him feedback earlier?

莱尼：所以在鲍勃的这个例子中，假设你现在就这样做，除了早点给他反馈之外，你还会做些什么不同的事情呢？

Is there something you've learned about just how you would've phrased it or approached it?

您是否学到了一些关于如何表达或处理它的知识？

Kim Scott: I think probably what I would do, and I would love to hear what you would've said to Bob too, I certainly don't have all the answers, but probably what I would've said is let's go back to the first time Bob handed work into me with shame in his eyes.

金·斯科特：我想我可能会做什么，我也很想听听你会对鲍勃说的话，我当然没有所有的答案，但可能我会说的是让我们回到鲍勃第一次将工作交给我时，他的眼中充满羞愧。

I would've said, "Bob, maybe I'm misinterpreting the expression on your face, but it looks to me like you are not happy with this.

我会说：“鲍勃，也许我误解了你脸上的表情，但在我看来你对此并不满意。

What's going on?" And so I would've asked him to diagnose it himself and I want to pause on that because that can be very risky.

发生什么事了？”所以我会要求他亲自诊断，但我想暂停一下，因为这可能非常危险。

He might have said to me, "I think this is awesome.

他可能会对我说：“我认为这太棒了。

This is my best work," and now I've kind of made my job of giving him feedback a little bit harder.

这是我最好的工作。”现在我给他提供反馈的工作变得有点困难了。

So it's not always the right thing to ask questions, but I would've tried to ask it before I had examined the work when I noticed that he looked uncomfortable himself.

因此，提出问题并不总是正确的事情，但当我发现他自己看起来不舒服时，我会在检查作品之前尝试提出问题。

Kim Scott: And I think also another thing I've learned about noticing, I said earlier that there's a lot of evidence that we often misinterpret each other's facial expressions and body language.

金·斯科特：我认为我还学到了关于注意的另一件事，我之前说过，有很多证据表明我们经常误解彼此的面部表情和肢体语言。

So I would've tried to say that with some humility, it seems like you're not, maybe I'm wrong, but you don't look to me like you're happy with this.

所以我会试着谦虚地说，看起来你不是，也许我错了，但在我看来你并不对此感到满意。

And I would've given him an opportunity to say, "Yeah, maybe I need to do it again." Let's imagine though that he said, "Oh no, it's awesome.

我会给他一个机会说：“是的，也许我需要再做一次。”让我们想象一下他说：“哦，不，这太棒了。

It's ready." So then I get it and I look at it.

准备好了。”然后我就明白了并查看了它。

I would have not been shy about pointing out very specifically every problem that I saw in that piece of work, every single one.

我会毫不犹豫地非常具体地指出我在那件作品中看到的每一个问题，每一个问题。

Sometimes it can be tempting when you're giving someone feedback to say, "Oh, there's a number of careless mistakes here.

有时，当你向某人提供反馈时，你可能会说：“哦，这里有很多粗心的错误。

Can you go back and look at it again," and the person will notice a few of them and then you got to go, sometimes it's useful to show someone a pattern.

你能回去再看一遍吗？”这个人会注意到其中的一些，然后你就必须离开，有时向某人展示一种模式是有用的。

Kim Scott: All of the careless mistakes, especially if someone is defensive or if you think they're likely to be defensive, if you think they're likely to do to you what I did to my boss, oh no, everything's fine.

金·斯科特：所有粗心的错误，特别是如果有人处于防御状态，或者如果你认为他们可能会处于防御状态，如果你认为他们可能会对你做我对我老板所做的事情，哦不，一切都很好。

It's no big deal.

没什么大不了的。

You need to move out on the challenge directly dimension.

您需要直接应对挑战。

You need to be prepared to keep going until you have communicated with a person.

您需要准备好继续前进，直到与某人沟通为止。

And that was really the problem with Bob.

这确实是鲍勃的问题所在。

He probably would not have started to cry.

他可能不会哭。

I think my fear around his tears was probably more about my fear than what was actually likely to happen.

我认为我对他的眼泪的恐惧可能更多是出于我的恐惧，而不是实际可能发生的事情。

But I think we do fear someone else getting upset more often than they actually get upset.

但我认为我们确实更担心别人感到不安，而不是他们真正感到不安。

We have kind of a negativity bias when it comes to part of the reason why we're reluctant to give feedback.

当谈到我们不愿意提供反馈的部分原因时，我们有一种消极偏见。

Lenny: And I think to your point, that we want to be liked, like you said, that you should get over that.

莱尼：我认为就你的观点而言，我们希望被人喜欢，就像你说的那样，你应该克服这一点。

I think that's obviously very hard just to be like, "Nah, I'm not going to worry about that." But I think your point is really important that you'll be liked later if you don't do the hard thing now.

我认为，“不，我不会担心这个”，这显然是非常困难的。但我认为你的观点非常重要，如果你现在不做困难的事情，以后你会被喜欢的。

It'll only get worse if you just let it continue happening.

如果你让它继续发生，事情只会变得更糟。

Kim Scott: And I think also for me to say to myself going into that conversation, it's more important for me to demonstrate care, that I care about Bob than it is for Bob to like me, and if I demonstrate that I care about Bob, then I'm going to do the right thing that will ultimately create the conditions for a good relationship with Bob.

金·斯科特：我想在谈话中对自己说，对我来说，表现出关心、我关心鲍勃比鲍勃喜欢我更重要，如果我表现出我关心鲍勃，那么我就会做正确的事情，最终为与鲍勃建立良好的关系创造条件。

Me pulling my punches did not create the conditions for a good relationship with Bob.

我的克制并没有为与鲍勃建立良好的关系创造条件。

Lenny: I actually did that and I learned this from a manager of mine is just almost work backwards from ask them, what do you want to achieve in your career?

莱尼：我确实这么做了，我从我的一位经理那里了解到这一点，这几乎是从问他们“你想在职业生涯中实现什么目标”开始的。

Where do you want to go in this company and make sure they know you know what they want, and then basically work backwards from to get there.

你想在这家公司走向何方，并确保他们知道你知道他们想要什么，然后基本上向后工作以实现目标。

Here's the things you need to get, and here's the thing you did recently that isn't necessarily on the track and here's what we should be working on if you want to get to the skull that you have.

这是你需要得到的东西，这是你最近做的不一定在赛道上的事情，如果你想得到你拥有的头骨，这就是我们应该做的事情。

Kim Scott: Yeah, I think one of the really important things that all managers can do for their direct reports to show that they care is to have real meaningful career conversations, where you talk about their life story, sort of their past, whatever part of it they're comfortable talking to you about so that you understand what motivates them at work.

金·斯科特：是的，我认为所有经理都可以为他们的直接下属做的真正重要的事情之一，以表明他们关心的是进行真正有意义的职业对话，在其中你可以谈论他们的生活故事，他们的过去，无论他们愿意与你谈论的任何部分，以便你了解他们在工作中的动力。

And I would have three separate 45 minute conversations, so one about their past, one about their future, their dreams for the future, and it's not just the next couple of years.

我会进行三场单独的 45 分钟对话，一场关于他们的过去，一场关于他们的未来，他们对未来的梦想，而且不仅仅是未来几年。

It's like imagine at the height of your career you have everything you want.

这就像想象一下，在你职业生涯的巅峰时期，你拥有你想要的一切。

What does it look like?

它看起来像什么？

And give me three or four different pictures of that because very few of us know what we want to do when we grow up.

给我三到四张不同的照片，因为我们很少有人知道长大后我们想做什么。

Kim Scott: Then the third conversation is to sort of sit down with your director report and come up with a career action plan.

金·斯科特：那么第三次对话就是坐下来讨论你的董事报告并制定职业行动计划。

So given what motivates you and where you want to go, what are the skills that it would be useful for you to develop so that you can get where you want to go and who can I introduce you to?

那么，考虑到你的动机和你想去的地方，哪些技能对你来说是有用的，以便你能够到达你想去的地方，我可以把你介绍给谁呢？

What are the educational opportunities?

有哪些教育机会？

Can we tweak your job so that you're gaining those skills so you're at least taking a step in the direction of your dreams, even if you're not there yet?

我们可以调整你的工作，让你获得这些技能，这样你至少朝着你的梦想迈出了一步，即使你还没有实现？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I have a post about this.

我有一篇关于这个的帖子。

I'll link to in the show notes that gives people a guide to having these conversations, and there's a spreadsheet I share with people like, here's an action plan you can come up with your teammate and here's what you're going to work on these next six months.

我将在节目笔记中链接到该笔记，为人们提供进行这些对话的指南，并且我与人们分享了一个电子表格，例如，这是您可以与队友一起制定的行动计划，这是您在接下来的六个月中将要开展的工作。

Kim Scott: Did you read the book When they Win, You Win by Russ Laraway?

金·斯科特：你读过拉斯·拉拉威的《当他们赢了，你就赢了》这本书吗？

Kim Scott: Oh, he has a hundred pages on career conversations and he's also built sort of some tools that help people.

Kim Scott：哦，他有一百页的职业对话，而且他还构建了一些帮助人们的工具。

So check that out.

所以检查一下。

Lenny: And it's called When You Win...

莱尼：它的名字叫《当你赢了》……

When They Win, You Win.

当他们赢了，你就赢了。

Kim Scott: Yes, by Russ Laraway, he and I worked together at Google and then we started a company together.

Kim Scott：是的，作者是 Russ Laraway，他和我在 Google 一起工作，然后我们一起创办了一家公司。

Lenny: Oh wow.

莱尼：哦，哇。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

We'll link to them in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到它们。

Maybe I'll get him on the podcast too.

也许我也会让他加入播客。

Great.

伟大的。

Lenny: Okay, so we've been chatting about ways individually to get better at some of these skills.

莱尼：好的，我们一直在单独讨论如何提高其中一些技能。

Another area that I think people struggle with is the company culture often isn't welcoming of direct feedback.

我认为人们遇到的另一个问题是公司文化通常不欢迎直接反馈。

So there's a question, so you probably saw this on Twitter.

那么有一个问题，所以您可能在 Twitter 上看到了这个。

I asked people, what should I ask you?

我问人家，我该问你什么？

And a lot of people came in with a lot of questions and there's one that came in from Pete, so I'm just going to read it along these lines.

很多人提出了很多问题，皮特提出了一个问题，所以我将沿着这些思路阅读它。

So this question is just how do you practice being radically candid in a culture?

所以这个问题就是你如何在一种文化中练习完全坦诚？

And most cultures are like this where people aren't ready for direct feedback.

大多数文化都是这样，人们还没有准备好接受直接反馈。

Since company culture is often closer to ruinous empathy and being radically candid is more of a long-term good than a short-term good.

因为公司文化往往更接近毁灭性的同理心，而彻底的坦诚更多的是长期利益而不是短期利益。

You could potentially risk retention with your employees if you're too direct with them.

如果你对员工过于直接，你可能会面临留住员工的风险。

So how do you think about finding this balance of being candid but not pissing people off, or do you just hire people that are open and ready for direct feedback and that's kind of how you solve that problem?

那么，您如何考虑找到坦诚但不惹恼人们的平衡，或者您是否只是雇用开放并准备好接受直接反馈的人，这就是您解决问题的方式？

Kim Scott: I don't think you can only hire people who are open and ready for direct feedback because it's hard for all of us.

Kim Scott：我认为你不能只雇用那些持开放态度并准备好接受直接反馈的人，因为这对我们所有人来说都很难。

I just want to acknowledge that, it's hard for me.

我只是想承认这一点，这对我来说很难。

I mean, I wrote the book, I believe in it to my core and sometimes it's still hard for me.

我的意思是，我写了这本书，我从心底里相信它，但有时这对我来说仍然很难。

It's hard for me to hear it and it's hard for me to deliver it.

我很难听到它，也很难表达它。

This is a really difficult thing to do.

这确实是一件很难做到的事情。

The good thing about that two by two is it makes it look easy, which is useful, but it's not easy.

两两的好处是它看起来很容易，这很有用，但并不容易。

So anyway, I think there are, to answer Pete's question, I think there are a few things that can help.

所以无论如何，我认为，为了回答皮特的问题，我认为有一些事情可以提供帮助。

There's really an order of operations to radical candor, and if you begin with soliciting criticism, then you take the first and most important step to improving your relationship with that person enough that it becomes easier for you to give it as well as to get it.

彻底的坦诚确实有一个操作顺序，如果你从征求批评开始，那么你就迈出了第一步也是最重要的一步来改善你与那个人的关系，这样你就更容易给予和获得批评。

Kim Scott: So I want to leave folks with some sort of steps on how to solicit feedback, and this is true, especially if you're a boss, but it's true in all your relationships.

金·斯科特：所以我想给人们留下一些关于如何征求反馈的步骤，这是事实，特别是如果你是老板，但在你的所有关系中都是如此。

You can use this at home as well.

您也可以在家里使用它。

So if you say, "Do you have any feedback for me?" You're wasting your breath.

因此，如果您说：“您对我有什么反馈吗？”你这是在浪费呼吸。

The other person's going to say, "Oh no, everything's fine." Nobody in your life accepts your teenage children.

另一个人会说：“哦，不，一切都很好。”你的生活中没有人接受你十几岁的孩子。

If you have teenage children, they'd really want to give you some criticism, but nobody else in your life really wants to give you criticism.

如果你有十几岁的孩子，他们真的想给你一些批评，但你生活中没有其他人真的想给你批评。

And so you want to think about how you're going to ask the person that's going to be most likely to elicit a response.

因此，您需要考虑如何询问最有可能引起回应的人。

The question that I like to ask is, "What could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me?" But do not write down my question because if you sound like Kim Scott and not like yourself, then other people are not going to believe you want the answer.

我想问的问题是：“我可以做什么或停止做什么才能让与我一起工作变得更容易？”但不要写下我的问题，因为如果你听起来像金·斯科特而不像你自己，那么其他人就不会相信你想要答案。

It needs to sound authentic to you.

它需要对你来说听起来很真实。

Kim Scott: I was working with Christa Quarles when she was CEO of OpenTable and she said, "Kim, I could never imagine those words coming out of my mouth." She said, "The way I like to ask is tell me why I'm wrong." Okay, that's fine too.

Kim Scott：当 Christa Quarles 担任 OpenTable 首席执行官时，我曾与她一起工作，她说：“Kim，我无法想象这些话是从我嘴里说出来的。”她说：“我喜欢问的方式就是告诉我为什么我错了。”好吧，这样也好。

It demands an answer to her question.

它需要回答她的问题。

But of course there were a couple of people on her team who felt that that was too aggressive, that shut them down, so she had to adjust her question.

但当然，她的团队中有几个人觉得这太激进了，让他们无法开口，所以她必须调整她的问题。

Being authentic does not mean ignoring the impact you're having on others.

真实并不意味着忽视你对他人的影响。

So you want to think about your question, you want to think about who you're going to ask that question of, and if everybody can write down their question, who they're going to ask it of and then pop it into their calendar right now, this will be one of the most productive podcasts in all of podcast land.

所以你要考虑一下你的问题，你要考虑你要向谁问这个问题，如果每个人都可以写下他们的问题，他们要问谁，然后立即将其放入他们的日历中，这将是所有播客领域中最有成效的播客之一。

Lenny: Let's spend more time on this actually.

莱尼：实际上让我们花更多时间在这上面。

So what is it you recommend, that they pick?

那么你推荐什么，他们选择什么？

How many people would you recommend they pick, and ask feedback from?

您会建议他们挑选多少人并征求反馈？

Kim Scott: Well, I think if you are a manager, you need to be soliciting every week feedback from each of your direct reports, and you need to sort of, I would budget five minutes at the end of your one-on-one to solicit feedback.

金·斯科特：嗯，我认为如果你是一名经理，你需要每周从你的每个直接下属那里征求反馈，你需要，我会在一对一结束时预算五分钟来征求反馈。

So mostly a one-on-one should be your employees setting the agenda and your employee's time and don't by the way, save up when you have to give feedback.

因此，大多数情况下，一对一应该由您的员工设定议程和员工的时间，顺便说一句，当您必须提供反馈时，不要节省时间。

Don't save it up for your one-on-one and definitely don't save it up for a performance review.

不要将其保存下来用于一对一的讨论，也绝对不要将其保存下来用于绩效评估。

You want to give that in the moment.

你想立即给予它。

We can talk more about that in a second, but when you're soliciting feedback, save five minutes at the end of your one-on-one and ask that go-to question.

我们可以稍后再详细讨论这个问题，但是当您征求反馈时，请在一对一结束时留出五分钟的时间来提出关键问题。

And you also want to ask that go-to question of your cross-functional peers who you work most closely with and of your boss.

您还想向与您合作最密切的跨职能同事以及您的老板提出这个常见问题。

And I think you don't want to ask the same question every single time.

我认为你不想每次都问同样的问题。

It'll start to sound like you don't really want the answer, but you want to make this part of your daily weekly routine with the people who you interact most closely with.

听起来你似乎并不真正想要答案，但你想让这成为你与最密切互动的人每周例行公事的一部分。

Lenny: So you added to the end of this your one-on-one agenda, and two versions of this question are, what am I doing wrong?

莱尼：所以你在最后添加了你的一对一议程，这个问题的两个版本是，我做错了什么？

Which is that one I guess you iterated.

我猜你重复的是哪一个。

Kim Scott: Tell me why I'm wrong or what am I doing wrong or what could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me?

Kim Scott：告诉我为什么我错了，或者我做错了什么，或者我可以做什么或停止做什么，这样可以更轻松地与我合作？

Or what should I stop doing?

或者我应该停止做什么？

What should I start doing?

我应该开始做什么？

What should I continue doing?

我应该继续做什么？

Those are some common ones.

这些是一些常见的。

What do you like to ask Lenny?

你想问莱尼什么问题？

Lenny: I think it was something along the lines of like, what's one thing I could be doing better or what's one way I could be helping you be more successful?

莱尼：我认为这类似于，我可以做得更好的一件事是什么，或者我可以帮助你取得更大成功的一种方法是什么？

Kim Scott: That's a really good one.

金·斯科特：这确实是一件好事。

What's one way I could help you be more successful?

我可以帮助您取得更大成功的一种方法是什么？

Or Jason Rosoff, my co founder at Radical Candor likes to ask, "What could I have done this week?" So he time, he time bounds it.

或者杰森·罗索夫（Jason Rosoff），我的 Radical Candor 联合创始人，喜欢问：“这周我本可以做什么？”所以他的时间，他的时间限制了它。

"What could I have done this week to better support you in your work?" In fact, Jason told me after we had worked together for about a month, he was like, "Kim, I really hate your go-to question." He said, "It's too open-ended for me.

“这周我可以做些什么来更好地支持你的工作？”事实上，杰森告诉我，在我们一起工作了大约一个月后，他说，“金，我真的很讨厌你提出的问题。”他说：“这对我来说太开放了。

If you can tell me what you're working on and ask me at the end of a meeting specifically what I noticed then that is much better."

如果你能告诉我你正在做什么，并在会议结束时问我具体注意到了什么，那就更好了。”

Lenny: How often do you accept no answer?

莱尼：你多久不接受不回答？

Just like, no everything's great.

就像，没有一切都很好。

Kim Scott: Never.

金·斯科特：从来没有。

I mean, there are some people who really don't like to be put on the spot.

我的意思是，有些人真的不喜欢被置于困境。

So if I can tell that I'm inflicting a cruel and unusual punishment on the person, I'll say, "Look, you know I'm not perfect.

因此，如果我知道我正在对这个人施加残酷且不寻常的惩罚，我会说：“听着，你知道我并不完美。

I know I'm not perfect.

我知道我并不完美。

Next time we meet, I want you to think of something, notice something.

下次我们见面时，我希望你想一些事情，注意到一些事情。

It's the thing that you can do that would help me more than anything else that you could do is to tell me when I'm wrong because I need to know that." In fact, Andy Grove, who was the CEO of Intel said he used to at the end of his one-on-ones say to people, "There's one more thing.

你能做的事情比你能做的任何事情都更能帮助我，那就是当我错了的时候告诉我，因为我需要知道这一点。”事实上，英特尔首席执行官安迪·格罗夫表示，他常常在一对一谈话结束时对人们说：“还有一件事。

And he explained to me that that was coded Intel for like this is the most important thing." I was working at Apple at the time and I said, "Oh, did you get that from Steve Jobs?"

他向我解释说，英特尔的编码是这样的，这是最重要的事情。”当时我在苹果公司工作，我说：“哦，你是从史蒂夫·乔布斯那里得到的吗？”

Kim Scott: That was always how he introduced, "Just one more thing, the iPad." And Andy got immediately very grumpy and very offended, and he said, "No, we both got it from Colombo.

Kim Scott：他总是这样介绍，“还有一件事，iPad。”安迪立刻变得脾气暴躁，非常生气，他说：“不，我们都是从科伦坡得到的。

The detective show." You can get tips from anywhere.

侦探剧。”您可以从任何地方获取提示。

So you want to make sure that you're though letting the person know that you really do care about what they say and that it's really when they give you this critical feedback that you're going to reward it.

因此，你要确保让对方知道你确实关心他们所说的话，并且当他们向你提供批评性反馈时，你才会给予奖励。

But that's not the end.

但这还没有结束。

Asking that question is only the first step, the bad news about your question, no matter how hard you think about it, and no matter how good a question it is, the other person is still going to feel uncomfortable.

问这个问题只是第一步，关于你的问题的坏消息是，无论你多么努力地思考它，无论这是一个多么好的问题，对方仍然会感到不舒服。

There's no such thing as emotional Novocaine.

不存在情感奴佛卡因这样的东西。

That's why I don't believe in scripts.

这就是为什么我不相信剧本。

People believe if I just say the magic words like the door will open, that's not how it works.

人们相信，如果我只是说出像门会打开这样的魔法词，事情并不是这样的。

It's a give and take.

这是一种给予和接受。

So you want to sort of be prepared to embrace that discomfort.

所以你要做好接受这种不适的准备。

The only way out is through.

唯一的出路就是通过。

Simplest way to embrace the discomfort is to close your mouth and count to six.

拥抱不适的最简单方法就是闭上嘴并数到六。

Kim Scott: Only made it to three just there, and your eyes were popping out.

Kim Scott：只到了三点，你的眼睛就快要掉出来了。

Kim Scott: Six seconds is a really long time.

金·斯科特：六秒确实是一个很长的时间。

Almost nobody can endure six full seconds of silence.

几乎没有人能忍受整整六秒的沉默。

So they'll probably tell you something.

所以他们可能会告诉你一些事情。

So now you've dragged this poor soul out on a conversational limb that they never wanted to go on.

所以现在你把这个可怜的灵魂拖到了他们不想继续进行的谈话的边缘。

They're probably going to say something.

他们可能会说些什么。

The third step is to make sure that you listen with the intent to understand not to respond, because you're probably going to feel defensive and that's okay.

第三步是确保你带着理解的意图去倾听，而不是做出回应，因为你可能会感到防御，但这没关系。

It doesn't mean you're a lesser mortal or that you're shut down the feedback.

这并不意味着你是一个凡人，或者你关闭了反馈。

All it means is that you're human.

这一切都意味着你是人类。

And that's all part of this.

这就是这一切的一部分。

You want to figure out how to manage your natural defensive reaction to critical feedback, which you're probably going to have.

你想弄清楚如何管理你对批评性反馈的自然防御反应，你可能会遇到这种情况。

The simplest tactic I can offer folks there is to think of some follow-up questions.

我可以为人们提供的最简单的策略就是思考一些后续问题。

Kim Scott: So at breakfast, my daughter not too long ago said to me, "Mom, I wish you weren't the Radical Candor lady." And immediately this wave of parental guilt washed over me and I thought, ah, I'm spending too much time at work.

金·斯科特：不久前吃早餐时，我女儿对我说：“妈妈，我希望你不是那个激进坦率的女士。”立刻，这股为人父母的愧疚感席卷了我，我想，啊，我在工作上花了太多时间。

She wants more of my time.

她想要我更多的时间。

I shouldn't be traveling so much.

我不应该出差那么多。

But then I thought, well, I should ask her, make sure I understood.

但后来我想，好吧，我应该问她，确保我理解。

I'm jumping to conclusions here.

我在这里过早下结论。

I'm not listening with the intent to understand.

我不是带着理解的意图去听的。

So I asked a follow-up question.

所以我问了一个后续问题。

I said, "Well, who do you wish I were?" And she said, "I wish you were the lady who minded her own business," so I could go spend a little more time at work as far as she was concerned.

我说：“那么，你希望我是谁？”她说：“我希望你是一位只管自己的事情的女士”，这样我就可以在她看来多花一点时间在工作上。

So you want to make sure you really understand what a person is telling you.

所以你要确保你真正理解一个人在告诉你什么。

And once you feel certain that you really do understand and that you've been open to it, the last and most important step is to reward the candor.

一旦你确定自己确实理解并且对此持开放态度，最后也是最重要的一步就是奖励坦诚。

Kim Scott: A person takes a huge risk, especially if this person is your employee.

Kim Scott：一个人要承担巨大的风险，特别是如果这个人是你的员工。

A person takes a huge risk to give you critical feedback.

一个人冒着巨大的风险给你批评性的反馈。

And if you do not reward that risk richly, you're never going to get any feedback again.

如果你不充分奖励这种风险，你将永远不会再得到任何反馈。

So if you agree with the feedback, fix the problem and make your listening tangible, be loud.

因此，如果您同意反馈，请解决问题并让您的倾听切实可行，请大声说话。

So-and-so told me that the tea in the break room is terrible, and now we have thirty-five different kinds of tea.

某某告诉我，休息室的茶很糟糕，现在我们有三十五种不同的茶。

Thank you for telling me.

谢谢你告诉我。

And that can demonstrate to people that they're not wasting their breath to come to you.

这可以向人们证明他们并不是在浪费时间来找你。

That if you become aware of a problem, you'll fix it.

如果你意识到一个问题，你就会解决它。

And you also want to, by the way, you want to ask for feedback after you fixed it.

顺便说一句，您还想在修复问题后寻求反馈。

Did I over-correct or did I under-correct?

我是纠正过度还是纠正不足？

Kim Scott: My boss at Google, the same boss from the um story also told me when she gave me some feedback that I tended to move too fast.

金·斯科特：我在谷歌的老板，嗯故事中的同一个老板在给我一些反馈时也告诉我，我倾向于行动太快。

And she said, "Kim, until people and giving you feedback that you're going too slow.

她说：“金，直到人们给你反馈说你进展得太慢了。

You won't have corrected this problem." So you kind of want to shoot to over-correct if you get some critical feedback.

你不会纠正这个问题。”因此，如果您收到一些批评性的反馈，您可能会想要过度纠正。

I also want to though pause on what to do when you get some critical feedback that you disagree with because it can be easy to feel wedged here.

当你收到一些你不同意的批评反馈时，我也想暂停一下该怎么做，因为你很容易感到被困在这里。

And if all you do is say thank you for the feedback, the other person is going to hear something much less polite than a brush off or worse.

如果你所做的只是说谢谢你的反馈，那么对方会听到比拒绝或更糟糕的更不礼貌的话。

Kim Scott: And so what you want to do is you want to look for that five or 10% of whatever the person said that you can agree with, and you want to give voice to that.

Kim Scott：所以你想要做的就是寻找这个人所说的 5% 或 10% 你可以同意的内容，并且你想要表达出来。

And then what you want to do is you want to say, "As for the rest of it, I want to think about it and get back to you." And then you've got to get back to them.

然后你想做的就是说：“至于剩下的事情，我想考虑一下然后再回复你。”然后你必须回到他们身边。

You got to offer a respectful explanation of why you disagree.

你必须对你不同意的原因做出尊重的解释。

And it's tempting to feel like a disagreement poses a risk to our relationships, but it's not disagreement that poses a risk to our relationships.

人们很容易觉得分歧会给我们的关系带来风险，但并不是分歧会给我们的关系带来风险。

It's unspoken disagreement.

这是无声的分歧。

Many, I don't know about you Lenny, but a lot of my best professional relationships began with a good respectful disagreement.

很多，我不了解你，莱尼，但我的很多最好的职业关系都是从一次良好的尊重的分歧开始的。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

That reminds me of just watching Squid Games, the reality show on Netflix.

这让我想起刚刚观看 Netflix 上的真人秀《Squid Games》。

Yeah.

是的。

Have you seen this at all?

你见过这个吗？

Kim Scott: I haven't watched it, but it's on my list.

金·斯科特：我还没看过，但它在我的名单上。

Lenny: There's this guy who makes a huge bad decision on behalf of his whole team and they hate him in the show.

莱尼：有一个人代表他的整个团队做出了一个巨大的错误决定，他们在剧中讨厌他。

And then on TikTok, he shared that they're best friends now, even though they called him a big idiot.

然后在 TikTok 上，他分享说他们现在是最好的朋友，尽管他们称他为大白痴。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序。

Finally, replacing those endless spreadsheets create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

最后，取代那些无休无止的电子表格，可以在几秒钟内创建自定义产品路线图并与任何利益相关者共享。

And it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working.

这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作。

So true collaboration is finally possible.

因此，真正的合作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解。

Lenny: No catch.

莱尼：没问题。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over, rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束，通过 Jira Product Discovery 重新发现可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/Lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/Lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/Lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/Lenny。

Lenny: So to recap the steps roughly for how to get feedback from people, it's ask your question like what's one thing I could have done this week to make you more successful?

莱尼：粗略地回顾一下如何从人们那里获得反馈的步骤，就是问你一个问题，比如我本周可以做哪一件事来让你更成功？

Wait six seconds potentially or try to, it's very hard.

可能要等六秒钟或者尝试一下，这非常困难。

Ask a few follow-up questions to make sure you understand what they're saying and then find a way to reward them.

问一些后续问题，以确保您理解他们在说什么，然后找到奖励他们的方法。

Say thank you.

说声谢谢。

Lenny: Especially if you disagree, which is a really interesting nuance of this.

莱尼：特别是如果你不同意的话，这是一个非常有趣的细微差别。

I had Jules Walter on the podcast.

我的播客中有朱尔斯·沃尔特。

I always think of him when I think of getting feedback.

当我想到获得反馈时，我总是会想到他。

He shared this advice.

他分享了这个建议。

When you get feedback, just be so appreciative so that people keep giving me just like, "Thank you so much for that feedback." The way he phrases it.

当你收到反馈时，要表现出感激之情，这样人们就会不断地给我这样的反馈：“非常感谢你的反馈。”他的措辞方式。

Even if you're melting inside and really hate this feedback, just like, "thank you, I really appreciate it." But I think your nuance there is really key is if you do disagree, I really like this tip of just like, let me think about this element of it and then actually follow up.

即使你内心融化并且真的讨厌这种反馈，就像，“谢谢你，我真的很感激。”但我认为你的细微差别非常关键，如果你确实不同意，我真的很喜欢这个建议，让我考虑一下它的这个要素，然后实际跟进。

Kim Scott: Even if you're melting inside, if you say thank you and you're melting inside, I mean maybe it's a terrible actor, but usually people know.

金·斯科特：即使你内心融化，如果你说谢谢，你内心融化，我的意思是也许这是一个糟糕的演员，但通常人们都知道。

And that's why I say it's not enough to say thank you.

这就是为什么我说仅仅说谢谢是不够的。

You got to fix the problem and then show what you did to fix the problem and get more feedback.

您必须解决问题，然后展示您为解决问题所做的工作并获得更多反馈。

Did I over-correct?

我是否纠正过头了？

Did I under-correct.

我是不是纠正不足了。

And if you disagree, you got to say that you disagree, but you got to say, so respectfully.

如果你不同意，你必须说你不同意，但你必须说得非常尊重。

Lenny: As a leader, this sounds like a lot of work to be doing every week.

莱尼：作为一名领导者，这听起来每周都有很多工作要做。

If you have a one-on-one following up correcting things.

如果您有一对一的跟进纠正问题。

Is there anything you'd recommend there?

那里有什么值得推荐的吗？

Or is it just, this is really important, you got to make time.

或者只是，这真的很重要，你必须腾出时间。

Kim Scott: It's not as much work as failing to do this as we saw from the Bob story.

金·斯科特：正如我们从鲍勃的故事中看到的那样，这并不像未能做到这一点那么麻烦。

So I think that the important thing that I have found is that this is part of why it's so important to do it immediately.

所以我认为我发现的重要一点是，这就是为什么立即采取行动如此重要的部分原因。

It's important for the other person, but it's also important for you.

这对别人很重要，但对你也很重要。

If you're doing this in a one-on-one, which you should be having anyway.

如果你是一对一地这样做，无论如何你都应该这样做。

So you're saving some time in a one-on-one.

因此，您可以在一对一的交流中节省一些时间。

So it's not adding time necessarily to your day.

所以这并不一定会增加你一天的时间。

And when you hear about problems, you should fix them.

当您听到问题时，您应该解决它们。

Yes, it takes time, but that is your job.

是的，这需要时间，但那是你的工作。

And when you disagree with something, you can disagree in your next regularly scheduled one-on-one.

当您不同意某件事时，您可以在下一次定期安排的一对一会谈中表达不同意见。

So I'm not talking about adding meetings to your calendar, so it doesn't actually take more time.

所以我不是在谈论将会议添加到您的日历中，因此实际上并不需要更多时间。

I have found that in fact, it saves tremendous amounts of time, but it does take emotional discipline.

我发现事实上，它可以节省大量时间，但确实需要情感纪律。

Kim Scott: And I think it also requires you, especially when it comes to giving it, which we talked about before, where the humble, helpful, those are impromptu two-minute conversations, giving the feedback that you should be having in between your meetings.

金·斯科特：我认为这也需要你，尤其是在给予方面，我们之前谈到过，谦虚、乐于助人，这些都是即兴的两分钟对话，提供你应该在会议之间获得的反馈。

In the um story, walk to my meeting with me, it didn't take any extra time for my boss to give me that feedback.

在这个故事中，步行去与我会面时，我的老板没有花任何额外的时间就给了我反馈。

She had to walk to her meeting anyway, and I had to go in the same direction.

不管怎样，她必须步行去开会，而我也必须朝同一个方向走。

So it didn't even take extra time from me.

所以我什至没有花费额外的时间。

But it is, I think one of the most common reasons why people don't do this in addition to fear of retaliation and just sort of existential dread, which are both factors, which hopefully we've helped alleviate, but is that you're scheduled back to back to back and you don't have those two minutes in between meetings.

但我认为，除了害怕报复和存在主义恐惧之外，人们不这样做的最常见原因之一是，这两个因素希望我们已经帮助缓解，但你是背靠背安排的，会议之间没有这两分钟的时间。

Kim Scott: And that's why I think it's important either to schedule slack time in your calendar, make your 30 minute meetings, 25 minute meetings, make your hour-long meetings, 50 minute meetings, maybe give yourself a few breaks in the day.

金·斯科特：这就是为什么我认为在日历中安排空闲时间很重要，安排 30 分钟的会议、25 分钟的会议、安排一小时的会议、50 分钟的会议，也许一天中给自己一些休息时间。

But if it's not possible, and often it was not possible for me in my career to sort of schedule my time that way, I just decided that these moments of management were more important than being on time to my next meeting.

但如果这是不可能的，而且在我的职业生涯中通常不可能以这种方式安排我的时间，我只是决定这些管理时刻比准时参加下一次会议更重要。

And so I was just late sometimes.

所以我有时会迟到。

So I wish I had a better answer than either control your time, which is really annoying advice because it's impossible to follow or be willing to be late to your next meeting.

所以我希望我有一个比控制你的时间更好的答案，这确实是一个令人讨厌的建议，因为你不可能遵循或愿意迟到你的下一次会议。

But those were the things that I tried to do.

但这些是我尝试做的事情。

Lenny: That was super helpful.

莱尼：这非常有帮助。

I think your point of just, if you're not making two minutes to do this thing now, it'll be a lot more time intensive later.

我认为你的观点是，如果你现在不花两分钟来做这件事，那么以后会花费更多的时间。

Kim Scott: Oh yeah.

金·斯科特：哦，是的。

It's stitch in time takes nine on all these two minute, and really it should be brushing and flossing.

这两分钟总共需要九针，而且实际上应该是刷牙和使用牙线。

This is not like a root canal.

这不像根管治疗。

These are like, this is relationship hygiene that you should be doing all the time.

就像，这是你应该一直保持的关系卫生。

Lenny: I was just reading Charlie Munger's book and there's a quote that he references of just the classic, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

莱尼：我刚刚读了查理·芒格的书，他引用了一句经典的话，一盎司的预防胜过一磅的治疗。

Lenny: Same idea.

莱尼：同样的想法。

So we've talked about a leader getting feedback.

我们讨论了领导者获取反馈的问题。

What if you're the employee?

如果你是员工怎么办？

Do you also recommend the same thing in the one-on-one, have an agenda item and ask this question?

您是否也在一对一中推荐同样的事情，有一个议程项目并提出这个问题？

Or is there a different approach you'd recommend?

或者您有推荐的不同方法吗？

Kim Scott: I think yes, if you're the employee, you should also be soliciting feedback on a regular basis from your boss.

Kim Scott：我认为是的，如果你是员工，你也应该定期征求老板的反馈。

So there's sort of an order of operations you want to solicit at first, no matter who you are, it's the same up, down, and sideways, even though it feels very different, the order of operations is the same.

所以一开始你要征求一个操作顺序，不管你是谁，上、下、横都是一样的，虽然感觉很不一样，但操作顺序是一样的。

So start by soliciting feedback.

因此，首先要征求反馈。

Then you want to give both praise and criticism.

然后你既要给予表扬，又要给予批评。

I think sometimes it feels like you're kissing up if you give your boss praise, but bosses need praise too.

我觉得有时候如果你表扬你的老板，感觉就像是在拍马屁，但老板也需要表扬。

And if there are things that your boss does that you appreciate and you want your boss to do more of those things, praise is a better tool for that than criticism.

如果你的老板做了一些你欣赏的事情，并且你希望你的老板做更多这些事情，那么赞美是比批评更好的工具。

When it comes time to offering your boss some critical feedback, you want to make sure, and by the way, this is also true when it comes time to give your employee critical feedback or your spouse or anybody else in your life, you want to be sure that you are prepared to gauge how it lands.

当需要向你的老板提供一些批评性反馈时，你要确保，顺便说一句，当需要向你的员工、你的配偶或你生活中的其他人提供批评性反馈时，你要确保你准备好衡量它的效果。

Kim Scott: So you want to start in kind of a neutral place.

Kim Scott：所以你想从一个中立的地方开始。

You don't want to go to the outer edge of challenge directly because then you're going to wind up in obnoxious aggression.

你不想直接进入挑战的外缘，因为那样你就会陷入令人讨厌的攻击之中。

So if we go back to that story, my boss started, "You said um a lot, were you aware of it?" "Nah." That was my response.

因此，如果我们回到那个故事，我的老板开始说道：“你说了很多，你知道吗？” “不。”这就是我的回应。

And then "I know this great speech coach, would you like an introduction?" "Nah," was my response.

然后“我认识这位出色的演讲教练，您需要介绍一下吗？” “不，”我的回答是。

So she had to keep going out on that challenge directly.

所以她必须继续直接应对这一挑战。

She didn't start out by saying, "When you say um I'm every third word, it makes you sound stupid." But she realized she had to go that far.

她一开始并没有说：“当你说‘嗯，我是每三个词’时，这会让你听起来很愚蠢。”但她意识到自己必须走那么远。

So you want to keep going out if you think they're brushing you off.

因此，如果您认为他们对您不屑一顾，您就想继续出去。

But if you find that your boss looks either sad or mad, that is your cue to move up on the care personally dimension.

但如果你发现你的老板看起来悲伤或生气，那就是你在个人护理维度上升级的暗示。

Kim Scott: And so to take a moment, and if you find your employee looks sad or mad, if they look sad, pause and say, "I feel like maybe I didn't say that in the best possible way.

金·斯科特：所以花点时间，如果你发现你的员工看起来悲伤或生气，如果他们看起来悲伤，停下来说，“我觉得也许我没有以最好的方式说这句话。

How could I have said it differently?" And so that means you're going up on the care personally, dimension, but you're not going the wrong way on challenge directly.

我怎么能用不同的方式表达呢？”因此，这意味着您在个人护理方面有所进步，但在直接挑战方面您并没有走错路。

I don't know about you Lenny, but if I say something to someone and they look sad, it's so tempting for me to try to pull the words back.

我不了解你，莱尼，但如果我对某人说了些什么，而他们看起来很悲伤，我就会很想收回话。

"Oh no, it's no big deal.

“噢，不，没什么大不了的。

I didn't mean it," but it is a big deal, and I did mean it, that's why I just said it.

我不是故意的，”但这是一件大事，而且我确实是这么想的，所以我才这么说。

And so if you go the wrong way on challenge directly, you wind up in ruinous empathy, and then you leave the person both sad and confused, so you make it worse.

因此，如果你直接在挑战中走错了路，你最终会陷入毁灭性的同理心，然后你会让那个人既悲伤又困惑，所以你会让事情变得更糟。

Kim Scott: So you want to take a beat to pay attention to the emotions in the moment, but not to go the wrong way on challenge directly.

Kim Scott：所以你要花点时间关注当下的情绪，但不要直接在挑战中走错路。

Same thing if they're mad, although if somebody's mad, that maybe is even harder.

如果他们生气了，情况也是一样，但如果有人生气了，那就更难了。

If somebody starts yelling at me, it's tempting for me either to start yelling back and wind up in obnoxious aggression or to crawl off to a self-protective, manipulative insincerity.

如果有人开始对我大喊大叫，我很可能会开始大喊大叫并以令人讨厌的攻击行为告终，或者采取自我保护、操纵性的不真诚态度。

And so instead, what I try to do is get curious, not furious, and why is this person so mad?

因此，我想做的是感到好奇，而不是愤怒，为什么这个人如此生气？

So say like, Look, maybe I didn't say that in the right way, but this is an important issue and we need to resolve it.

所以说，看，也许我没有以正确的方式这么说，但这是一个重要的问题，我们需要解决它。

Lenny: This comes back to the point you made about when you're giving feedback to try to do it in person or on a phone call to do exactly what you're saying, to read them as you're giving this feedback and figure out which axis you want to go down.

莱尼：这又回到了你提出的观点，当你提供反馈时，尝试亲自或通过电话去做，准确地按照你所说的去做，在提供反馈时阅读它们，并找出你想要走的轴。

Kim Scott: Yeah, you want to gauge it.

Kim Scott：是的，你想衡量一下。

I mean, when we communicate with other people, we communicate on an emotional level and on an intellectual level at the same time.

我的意思是，当我们与其他人交流时，我们同时在情感层面和智力层面进行交流。

And if we ignore the emotional signals that are coming at us or say don't take it personally, then we're just not going to communicate very well.

如果我们忽视向我们发出的情感信号，或者说不要把它当成针对个人的，那么我们就无法很好地沟通。

Lenny: Along these same lines, another question that came in is from a coach of yours that works I think for you or somehow with the program.

莱尼：同样，另一个问题来自你的一位教练，我认为他对你有用，或者以某种方式与该计划有关。

She asked this question of many top leaders have very low self-awareness.

她问这个问题很多高层领导的自我意识都很低。

They believe obnoxious aggression is the only way to give feedback, or they just ignore the problem and fire people with no feedback.

他们认为令人讨厌的攻击性是提供反馈的唯一方式，或者他们只是忽略问题并解雇没有反馈的人。

Is there something you've learned about how to change their mind about this is the way to operate?

您是否学到了一些关于如何改变他们对这种运作方式的看法？

Kim Scott: Yeah, I think the most important thing with leaders like that, that you can do is to explain to them the impact that they're having and to also show them that there is another way that is going to help them succeed.

金·斯科特：是的，我认为对于这样的领导者来说，最重要的事情就是向他们解释他们所产生的影响，并向他们表明还有另一种方法可以帮助他们取得成功。

Very often the leaders who are low on the care personally dimension, they do care about their results and they do care about their own careers.

很多时候，关心个人维度较低的领导者，他们确实关心自己的结果，也关心自己的职业生涯。

And so when you sort of explain this to them in terms of enlightened self-interest, they tend to get better at it.

因此，当你从开明的利己主义角度向他们解释这一点时，他们往往会做得更好。

And also, I mean there I can think of maybe one or two people I've worked with who are truly low on care, who truly don't care.

而且，我的意思是，我可以想到与我共事过的一两个人，他们真正缺乏护理，真正不在乎。

Very often people are bad at showing they care, but they do actually care.

人们常常不善于表现出他们的关心，但他们确实关心。

And also sometimes there are leaders who think they're not supposed to care.

有时，有些领导者认为他们不应该关心。

And so unleashing that capacity that they innately have to care and telling them this is actually part of the job can make them a much better, more effective leader.

因此，释放他们天生需要关心的能力，并告诉他们这实际上是工作的一部分，可以让他们成为更好、更有效的领导者。

But look, if someone is a psychopath and they truly don't care, they shouldn't be a manager.

但是你看，如果某人是一个精神病患者并且他们真的不在乎，那么他们就不应该成为一名经理。

That's the solution.

这就是解决方案。

Lenny: I totally get that one.

莱尼：我完全明白这一点。

So I really like that takeaway.

所以我真的很喜欢那个外卖。

Just basically show them the impact they're having because to your point, they want the company to succeed.

基本上只是向他们展示他们所产生的影响，因为就你而言，他们希望公司取得成功。

They want their team to succeed.

他们希望自己的团队取得成功。

And if they're not realizing there's downsides to the way they're operating.

如果他们没有意识到他们的运营方式存在缺点。

Kim Scott: And they want themselves to succeed.

金·斯科特：他们希望自己成功。

That's why I say part of the problem with obnoxious aggression is that you harm other people, but it's also inefficient because when you act like that, people can't hear what you're saying, so you're wasting your breath.

这就是为什么我说令人讨厌的攻击行为的部分问题在于你伤害了其他人，但这也是低效的，因为当你这样做时，人们听不到你在说什么，所以你是在浪费时间。

Lenny: And the way you show them that impact.

莱尼：以及你向他们展示影响力的方式。

Do you recommend interviewing people, getting stories, seeing, I don't know, how do you collect this impact so that they're like, oh, wow, I didn't realize this.

你是否建议采访人们，获取故事，看看，我不知道，你如何收集这种影响，这样他们就会说，哦，哇，我没有意识到这一点。

Kim Scott: I think that the best thing to do is, for me anyway, is I start by sharing stories from my career and stories when I was a jerk.

金·斯科特：我认为，无论如何，对我来说，最好的事情是首先分享我职业生涯中的故事以及我是个混蛋时的故事。

I've acted like a jerk too, plenty of times, unfortunately.

不幸的是，我也多次表现得像个混蛋。

And I show the impact that I've had and then I ask them for a similar story.

我展示了我所产生的影响，然后我要求他们提供类似的故事。

And usually sort of me holding up the mirror to myself is useful for them to be able to hold the mirror up to themselves to realize you want to help these people adopt a growth mindset around this stuff.

通常，我对自己举起镜子对他们很有用，让他们能够对着自己举起镜子，意识到你想帮助这些人在这件事上采取成长心态。

I am not telling you that you're an asshole.

我不是在告诉你你是个混蛋。

I'm telling you that we all behave like assholes sometimes.

我告诉你，我们有时都表现得像个混蛋。

And it's a big problem for us as well as for the people around us.

这对我们以及我们周围的人来说都是一个大问题。

And here's my story, when I acted like a jerk, what's yours?

这是我的故事，当我表现得像个混蛋时，你的故事是什么？

And people, that kind of self-awareness, sometimes people talk about inflicted insight like it's some kind of burden, but usually that kind of self-awareness makes people feel lighter.

而人们，这种自我意识，有时人们谈论强加的洞察力，就像它是某种负担一样，但通常这种自我意识让人感觉更轻松。

They're like, "Ah, now I know what's wrong and now I know what I can do about it."

他们会说，“啊，现在我知道出了什么问题，现在我知道我能做些什么了。”

Lenny: Yeah, I've definitely noticed that about your stories.

莱尼：是的，我确实注意到了你的故事。

They always are you making the mistake, which I think is very disarming.

他们总是让你犯错误，我认为这非常令人放心。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Maybe the extreme of this obnoxious aggressiveness is Bridgewater.

也许这种令人讨厌的侵略性的极端是桥水基金。

Their whole approach is like theirs.

他们的整个方法就像他们的一样。

Kim Scott: Oh my gosh.

金·斯科特：天哪。

Did you read the book The Fund?

你读过《基金》这本书吗？

Kim Scott: You must read it.

金·斯科特：你必须读一下。

It's all about Bridgewater.

这都是关于桥水基金的。

I always thought it was problematic.

我一直认为这是有问题的。

I had no idea just how problematic it is.

我不知道这有多么成问题。

Put that book in the show notes one of the best business books I've read in the last decade.

把那本书放在节目笔记中，这是我过去十年读过的最好的商业书籍之一。

Lenny: Wow, that is high praise.

莱尼：哇，这是很高的评价。

Yes, I will read that.

是的，我会读那个。

And so I guess for people that aren't familiar, like Bridgewater, they encourage, they have a system called Dots where they tell people, you must give hard critical feedback after every meeting, publicly.

因此，我想对于不熟悉的人，比如桥水基金，他们鼓励他们有一个名为“Dots”的系统，告诉人们，你必须在每次会议后公开提供严厉的批评反馈。

Kim Scott: Not after the meeting, in the meeting, publicly.

金·斯科特：不是在会后，而是在会议中，公开地。

And it's recorded on, it was, I think they changed it since, but it was recorded for posterity on video.

它被记录下来，我认为他们从那以后改变了它，但它是为后代录制的视频。

And sometimes, in fact, true story, shortly after I left Google, I was approached to work at Bridgewater in a management capacity, not in an investment capacity.

事实上，有时候，这是真实的故事，在我离开谷歌后不久，我就被邀请到桥水基金担任管理职位，而不是投资职位。

And so I called someone I knew who worked there and he said, "Let me give you an anecdote." He said, "The other day there was a meeting and there was a woman who in the meeting who had made a mistake and everybody just piled on.

所以我打电话给一个在那里工作的我认识的人，他说：“让我给你讲一个轶事。”他说：“有一天，在一次会议上，有一位女士在会议上犯了一个错误，大家都蜂拥而至。

The criticism was very personal.

这些批评是非常个人化的。

There was no core about the criticism.

这些批评没有核心内容。

It was like, these are your personality attributes that make you a useless human being.

就像，这些是你的人格特质，让你成为一个无用的人。

Kind of terrible feedback until she started to cry and the whole meeting was recorded and then they emailed a recording of the meeting out to the whole company, including all the people who were not in the meeting saying, this is an example of how to have..." So I would say that is deep, dark, obnoxious aggression.

这是一种可怕的反馈，直到她开始哭泣，整个会议都被记录下来，然后他们将会议录音通过电子邮件发送给整个公司，包括所有没有参加会议的人，说，这是一个如何……的例子。”所以我想说这是深刻、黑暗、令人讨厌的侵略。

That is not radical candor.

这并不是彻底的坦诚。

That is horrible.

那太可怕了。

Lenny: So it's safe to say you're not a fan of that approach?

莱尼：所以可以肯定地说你不喜欢这种方法吗？

Kim Scott: No. In fact, I did an analysis of Dalio's book Principles and it's like a, I don't know, 3 or 400 page book.

Kim Scott：没有。事实上，我对 Dalio 的《原理》一书进行了分析，它就像一本（我不知道）3 页或 400 页的书。

And there were I think four or five pages about caring about people.

我想其中有四五页是关于关心他人的。

There's very low care personally.

个人关心程度很低。

Lenny: I imagine many people see that, they see Elon, they see Steve Jobs, and the perception is they're very challenge directly people, they're not clearly care about you people, but they're very successful.

莱尼：我想很多人都看到了这一点，他们看到了埃隆，他们看到了史蒂夫·乔布斯，他们的看法是他们是非常直接的挑战者，他们并没有明确地关心你们，但他们非常成功。

What do you say to people that are like, but it works.

你对类似的人说什么，但它有效。

Why wouldn't I be that if that's the way I want to do it?

如果这就是我想要的方式，为什么我不这样做呢？

Kim Scott: Well, first of all, I would not put Steve Jobs in the same category as Ray Dalio and Elon Musk.

金·斯科特：嗯，首先，我不会将史蒂夫·乔布斯与雷·达里奥和埃隆·马斯克归为同一类别。

I mean, Steve Jobs could be obnoxiously aggressive, but mostly I would say he built such good relationships with his direct reports that when he got cancer, Tim Cook offered to give him half his liver.

我的意思是，史蒂夫·乔布斯可能具有令人讨厌的攻击性，但我最想说的是，他与直接下属建立了良好的关系，以至于当他患上癌症时，蒂姆·库克主动提出捐出一半的肝脏。

And I don't know of a word to describe that other than love.

除了爱，我不知道还能用什么词来形容。

These were real human relationships.

这些都是真实的人际关系。

When I worked at Apple, you could see Steve and Johnny talking.

当我在苹果公司工作时，你可以看到史蒂夫和约翰尼在说话。

You could tell these people cared about each other.

你可以看出这些人互相关心。

Now, radical candor gets measured not at the speaker's mouth, but at the listener's ear.

现在，衡量彻底坦诚的标准不再是说话者的嘴，而是听者的耳朵。

And I think that Steve had built a team around him of people who didn't mind rather what other people would consider obnoxious aggression.

我认为史蒂夫在他周围建立了一个团队，他们并不介意其他人认为令人讨厌的攻击行为。

But I think in the context of their relationship, it was understood as care.

但我认为在他们的关系中，这被理解为关心。

Kim Scott: I'll give you an example of that from my own career, not that I am comparing myself to Steve Jobs, I think I'm a much gentler person, but sometimes I develop relationships with people.

金·斯科特：我会给你举一个我自己职业生涯中的例子，我并不是把自己与史蒂夫·乔布斯进行比较，我认为我是一个更温和的人，但有时我会与人建立关系。

And part of that relationship is that we push each other pretty hard.

这种关系的一部分是我们互相推动。

So there was a person who I had worked with for a long time, for many years.

有一个人和我一起工作了很长时间、很多年。

He had followed me from one company to another, and we were localizing a product and he kept conflating Slovakia and Slovenia, and I corrected him once.

他跟随我从一家公司到另一家公司，我们正在本地化一种产品，他一直将斯洛伐克和斯洛文尼亚混为一谈，我纠正了他一次。

I corrected him twice the third time, I was like, did Slovakia, not Slovenia dumb ass.

第三次我纠正了他两次，我当时想，是斯洛伐克，而不是斯洛文尼亚这个笨蛋。

Kim Scott: And he started laughing, and that was fine in the context of our relationship, but I realized that the people around me, I was silencing them.

金·斯科特：他开始笑，这在我们关系的背景下很好，但我意识到我周围的人让他们保持沉默。

They were like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to make a mistake.

他们就像，“天哪，我不想犯错误。

Kim's going to call me a dumb ass." So I had to pause and say, "Look, I respect this person enormously, and I like this person enormously.

金会骂我是笨蛋。”所以我不得不停下来说：“看，我非常尊重这个人，我非常喜欢这个人。

We work very well together." And so I think that sometimes people have relationships with others and they have those relationships in public and other people misinterpret those relationships.

我们合作得很好。”所以我认为有时人们与他人有关系，并且他们在公共场合建立这些关系，而其他人会误解这些关系。

Kim Scott: Steve Jobs was not perfect.

金·斯科特：史蒂夫·乔布斯并不完美。

He made all kinds of mistakes, but he was no Ray Dalio or Elon Musk, who I would say make far more and worse and more egregious mistakes.

他犯了各种各样的错误，但他不是雷·达里奥（Ray Dalio）或埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk），我想说，他们犯了更多、更糟糕、更令人震惊的错误。

And I think you're raising a really important point.

我认为你提出了一个非常重要的观点。

You're raising a point, which is that there's this false dichotomy.

你提出了一个观点，那就是存在这种错误的二分法。

In fact, the new biography of Elon Musk falls into this category.

事实上，埃隆·马斯克的新传记就属于这一类。

I like Walter Isaacson's work a lot, but he falls prey to this in his biography of Elon Musk, which is there's this notion that we have to choose between being a total jerk but really competent or really nice but incompetent.

我非常喜欢沃尔特·艾萨克森（Walter Isaacson）的作品，但他在埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）的传记中陷入了这一点，其中有这样一种观念，即我们必须在成为一个完全混蛋但真正有能力或非常好但无能之间做出选择。

And those are not our two choices.

这些不是我们的两个选择。

That's the whole point of radical candor is that there's this other way that works better and doesn't hurt people.

这就是彻底坦诚的全部意义所在，那就是还有其他更有效且不会伤害他人的方式。

Lenny: I think that's the key takeaway there is you can be even more successful if you lean into the care deeply.

莱尼：我认为这是关键的一点，如果你深入了解护理，你可以取得更大的成功。

In theory, they could have gotten more out of their people if they made it clear they really care about them.

从理论上讲，如果他们明确表示自己真正关心员工，他们本可以从员工身上得到更多。

Kim Scott: And there's plenty of counter examples of incredibly successful people who are very caring leaders, and it's not as much fun to tell stories about that.

金·斯科特：有很多非常成功的人都是非常有爱心的领导者的反例，讲述这样的故事并不那么有趣。

And so we don't as often.

所以我们不那么频繁。

Lenny: Along the same lines, there's someone that you worked with that suggested I ask you about investing in your authentic leadership style, Melissa Tan.

莱尼：同样，梅丽莎·谭（Melissa Tan），一位与你共事的人建议我向你询问有关投资真实领导风格的问题。

I don't know if you remember her.

不知道你还记不记得她。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

And she was on the podcast in the past, and she just said how when she met you, she was a very people-pleasery person and just wanted to be like, and you helped her develop her natural leadership style.

她过去在播客上，她只是说，当她遇到你时，她是一个非常讨人喜欢的人，只是想成为这样的人，你帮助她发展了她天生的领导风格。

Can you just talk about what you suggest to people to figure this out and how to find that for yourself?

您能谈谈您建议人们如何解决这个问题以及您自己如何找到这个问题吗？

Kim Scott: I mean, I wonder what Melissa would say, but my memory of conversations with her, and this is an issue that I talk about a lot because a people pleaser too.

金·斯科特：我的意思是，我想知道梅丽莎会说什么，但我记得与她的谈话，这是我经常谈论的一个问题，因为它也是一个取悦别人的人。

I grew up in the South and I'm a woman.

我在南方长大，我是一名女性。

I was not brought up to challenge directly.

我从小就没有接受过直接挑战。

That was not part of the culture that I was brought up in.

这不是我长大的文化的一部分。

I was brought up to be polite but also brought up to be kind.

我从小就被教育要彬彬有礼，但也被教育要善良。

And for me, the thing that is most important to hang on to is that fundamental kindness and to realize that it's actually unkind not to say the thing.

对我来说，最重要的是要坚持基本的善意，并认识到不说出来实际上是不友善的。

And so that is part of the reason why I encourage people.

这就是我鼓励人们的部分原因。

I tell the Bob story so often and I encourage other leaders who I work with to think about what their Bob story is that you realize it's not nice in the long run.

我经常讲述鲍勃的故事，并鼓励与我一起工作的其他领导者思考他们的鲍勃故事是什么，这样你就会意识到从长远来看这并不好。

Kim Scott: It's unkind in the long run, not to tell someone if they're making a mistake.

Kim Scott：从长远来看，不告诉别人是否犯了错误是不友善的。

There's nothing nice about that in the long run.

从长远来看，这没有什么好处。

And so that I think at least for me, that's been helpful.

所以我认为至少对我来说，这很有帮助。

And then another thing that is helpful is again, to get others focused, to focus not on pleasing people, but on doing the right thing for those people, on truly caring about those people more than you care about your own discomfort in the moment.

然后，另一件有用的事情又是，让别人集中注意力，不要专注于取悦别人，而是为这些人做正确的事情，真正关心那些人，而不是关心自己当下的不适。

And that is something that is easier for people to do than just to challenge directly.

这对人们来说比直接挑战更容易做到。

I think in many ways it's about what is getting in the way.

我认为从很多方面来说，问题都与阻碍因素有关。

That's why I call it ruinism.

这就是为什么我称之为毁灭主义。

Empathy is a good thing, but sometimes empathy can paralyze at least me because I'm so acutely aware of how what I'm going to say might impact the other person, might hurt their feelings that I don't say it.

同理心是一件好事，但有时同理心至少会让我瘫痪，因为我非常清楚我要说的话可能会如何影响他人，可能会伤害他们的感情，所以我不说出来。

Kim Scott: And so when I push myself to be, and you can call it compassionate candor if you like that better than radical candor.

金·斯科特：所以当我强迫自己做到这一点时，如果你比激进的坦率更喜欢富有同情心的坦率，你可以称之为富有同情心的坦率。

But when I push myself not to feel so acutely what I think the other person might feel, and by the way, I could be wrong about what I think the other person might often, they're like, it's no big deal.

但是，当我强迫自己不要那么强烈地感受到我认为对方可能会有的感受时，顺便说一句，我可能对我认为对方可能经常有的感受是错误的，他们会说，这没什么大不了的。

They're like, oh, thank you for letting me know.

他们就像，哦，谢谢你让我知道。

But when I can let go of that and think about the other person and what I care about and what they care about for their future, going back to your point, if you know that it's really important for someone to get promoted and they won't get promoted if they keep talking to people in a particular way, then you're focused on what they want.

但是，当我可以放开这一点并考虑其他人以及我关心什么以及他们关心他们的未来时，回到你的观点，如果你知道某人升职对于某人来说确实很重要，并且如果他们继续以特定的方式与人交谈，他们就不会升职，那么你就会专注于他们想要的东西。

That is really helpful to move past that.

这对于克服这一点确实很有帮助。

Lenny: Just a few more questions before we wrap up.

莱尼：在我们结束之前还有几个问题。

Your book sold something like half a million copies.

你的书销量大约有五十万册。

Kim Scott: Million copies.

金·斯科特：百万份。

Million in 23 languages.

23 种语言的百万个。

Yes.

是的。

Lenny: 23 languages.

莱尼：23 种语言。

I had a stat of 20 languages.

我有 20 种语言的统计数据。

Jesus Christ.

耶稣基督。

So a lot of people have read it, a lot of people have been using it.

所以很多人读过它，很多人一直在使用它。

What's something that people often just get wrong that super frustrates you about the system, the recommendations that you just wish people come on, here's what I really wanted to say, or here's what you should change.

人们经常犯的错误让你对系统感到超级沮丧，你只是希望人们加入的建议，这就是我真正想说的，或者这是你应该改变的。

Kim Scott: There's two things.

金·斯科特：有两件事。

I mean, as I mentioned earlier, when you write about a book about feedback, you're going to get a lot of it.

我的意思是，正如我之前提到的，当你写一本关于反馈的书时，你会得到很多反馈。

One is this, in the spirit of Radical Candor and then the person acts like a jerk.

一是本着彻底坦诚的精神，然后这个人的行为就像一个混蛋。

That is not the spirit of Radical Candor.

这不是激进坦率的精神。

That is the spirit of obnoxious aggression.

这就是令人厌恶的侵略精神。

But shortly after the book came out, I was giving a talk at a tech company in San Francisco and I got some feedback from the CEO of that company that was so impactful that it caused me to write my next book, which is called Radical Respect.

但这本书出版后不久，我在旧金山的一家科技公司发表演讲，我从该公司的首席执行官那里得到了一些反馈，这些反馈非常有影响力，促使我写了我的下一本书，《激进的尊重》。

And in many ways, Radical Respect is kind of the prequel to Radical Candor because if you don't respect the other person, it's impossible to care about them and you're not going to bother challenging them directly.

从很多方面来说，《激进的尊重》是《激进的坦诚》的前传，因为如果你不尊重他人，就不可能关心他们，也不会费心直接挑战他们。

So what happened in this meeting?

那么这次会议到底发生了什么？

I walked in, I was really excited to give this talk.

我走进去，我很高兴能发表这次演讲。

Kim Scott: The CEO had been a colleague of mine for the better part of a decade.

Kim Scott：这位首席执行官在过去十年的大部分时间里一直是我的同事。

She's a person I like and respect enormously, and she's one of too few black women CEOs in tech or in any other sector.

她是我非常喜欢和尊重的人，她是科技或其他领域为数不多的黑人女性首席执行官之一。

And when I finished giving the talk, she pulled me aside and she said, "Kim, I'm excited to roll out Radical Candor.

当我结束演讲时，她把我拉到一边说：“金，我很高兴推出激进坦率。

I think it's really going to help me build the kind of career I want." But she said, "I got to tell you, it's much harder for me to roll it out than it is for you." And she went on to explain to me that as soon as she would offer folks even the most gentle, compassionate criticism, they would call her an angry black woman.

我认为这确实会帮助我建立我想要的职业生涯。”但她说：“我必须告诉你，对我来说推出它比对你来说要困难得多。”她接着向我解释说，只要她向人们提出哪怕是最温和、最富有同情心的批评，他们就会称她为愤怒的黑人女性。

And I knew this was true as soon as she said it, and I knew how unfair it was because she's like one of the most even keeled, cheerful people I've ever worked with.

她一说出来，我就知道这是真的，而且我知道这是多么不公平，因为她是我共事过的最平静、最开朗的人之一。

Kim Scott: And I realized a bunch of things at the same time when she told me that, the first was that I had not been the kind of colleague that I aspire to be, that I imagined myself to be.

金·斯科特：当她告诉我时，我同时意识到了很多事情，首先是我没有成为我渴望成为的那种同事，也没有成为我想象中的自己。

I had failed even to notice the extent to which she had to show up unfailingly, cheerful and pleasant in every meeting we had ever been in together even though she had what to be ticked off about as we all do at work.

我什至没有注意到，在我们一起参加的每次会议上，她都必须表现得始终如一、愉快而愉快，尽管她也像我们在工作中所做的那样，有一些值得抱怨的地方。

So I had failed to be an upstander, a good colleague.

所以我没能成为一个正直的人，一个好同事。

The second thing I realized was that I had also failed to acknowledge when I was experiencing different versions of bias, prejudice and bullying.

我意识到的第二件事是，当我经历不同版本的偏见、成见和欺凌时，我也没有承认。

And I think part of the reason it's kind of hard for the author of a book called Radical Candor to admit she was in denial.

我认为这也是《激进坦率》一书的作者很难承认自己否认的部分原因。

But I had been in denial about a bunch of experiences I had had in the workplace.

但我一直否认自己在工作场所的一些经历。

Kim Scott: I had pretended that a whole host of things were not happening, that were in fact happening.

金·斯科特：我假装很多事情都没有发生，但实际上却发生了。

And I think part of the reason why I did that was that I never wanted to think of myself as a victim, but even less than wanting to think of myself as a victim did I want to think of myself as the culprit.

我认为我这样做的部分原因是我从来不想将自己视为受害者，但我更不想将自己视为受害者，而是想将自己视为罪魁祸首。

So I'd been even more deeply in denial about the times that I had said or done things that hurt other people who I worked with, said or done things that were biased or worse.

因此，我更加否认自己曾说过或做过伤害与我一起工作的其他人的事情，说过或做了带有偏见或更糟糕的事情。

I had bullied people before.

我以前也欺负过人。

And by the way, when you become a leader, you're much more prone to bullying even if you don't think of yourself as a bully, which I certainly don't think of myself as a bully, but that doesn't mean I never bullied anyone.

顺便说一句，当你成为领导者时，即使你不认为自己是一个欺凌者，你也更容易受到欺凌，我当然不认为自己是一个欺凌者，但这并不意味着我从未欺负过任何人。

And then the last thing I realized was that as a leader, I imagined that I was creating these BS free zones, but I had allowed all manner of BS to pass.

然后我意识到的最后一件事是，作为一名领导者，我想象自己正在创建这些无废话的区域，但我已经允许各种废话通过。

So that was what prompted me to write the next book, Radical Respect, which you can pre-order right now and please do.

这就是促使我写下一本书《激进的尊重》的原因，您现在就可以预订这本书。

Lenny: That was my next question.

莱尼：这是我的下一个问题。

Talk more about this book.

多谈谈这本书。

What is it about?

这是关于什么的？

Where people find it?

人们在哪里找到它？

Kim Scott: Radical Respect comes out in May.

金·斯科特：《激进的尊重》将于五月出版。

You can pre-order it now.

您现在就可以预订。

Anywhere you buy books, at your local independent bookstore, I'm speaking at a conference of independent bookstore owners soon you can pre-order it on Amazon or Barnes Noble or anywhere else you buy buy books.

无论你在哪里买书，在当地的独立书店，我在独立书店业主会议上发言，很快你就可以在亚马逊或巴诺书店或任何其他你买书的地方预订它。

Lenny: And who would you say it's most for?

莱尼：你觉得这最适合谁？

Kim Scott: So there are chapters in that book about things leaders can do.

金·斯科特：那本书中有一些章节是关于领导者可以做的事情。

There are chapters in the book about things you can do if you're harmed by bias, prejudice, or bullying.

书中的某些章节介绍了如果您受到偏见、成见或欺凌行为的伤害，您可以采取哪些措施。

There are chapters in the book about how to be a great upstander, how to be a better colleague, and there are chapters in the book about how to become part of the solution, not part of the problem when you're the culprit.

书中有一些章节是关于如何成为一个伟大的正直者，如何成为一个更好的同事，还有一些章节是关于如何成为解决方案的一部分，而不是当你是罪魁祸首时，如何成为问题的一部分。

And I think we all find ourselves in all four of those roles at different moments in time, and I don't think there's any one group who can solve this problem.

我认为我们都发现自己在不同的时刻扮演着所有这四个角色，而且我认为没有任何一个群体可以解决这个问题。

Everyone is responsible for creating a more respectful work environment.

每个人都有责任创造一个更加尊重的工作环境。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll link to that in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Lenny: To leave people with a very tactical next step.

莱尼：给人们留下非常有策略性的下一步。

What's one thing they could do this week today to get better at Radical Candor, to start building that muscle?

今天他们可以做一件事来提高激进坦率，开始增强肌肉？

Kim Scott: I would love it if everyone would write down their go-to question what are the words that will come out of your mouth and practice it.

金·斯科特：如果每个人都能写下他们最想问的问题并进行练习，我会很高兴。

Practice it in front of the mirror and then practice it with a friend and refine it.

在镜子前练习，然后和朋友一起练习并完善它。

Just figure out what, because it is uncomfortable to solicit feedback from others.

只要弄清楚是什么，因为征求别人的反馈是不舒服的。

They don't want to give it to you and you don't really want to hear it.

他们不想给你，你也不想听。

So if everybody can write down their go-to question and then put five minutes in your calendar of someone you're going to ask that question of.

因此，如果每个人都可以写下他们最想问的问题，然后在你的日历上花五分钟的时间来问你要问的人。

Lenny: And that calendar entry, I was going to come back to it actually.

莱尼：还有那个日历条目，我实际上会回到它。

So you do the one-on-one agenda, adding the question, the calendar entry is for people you don't have a one-on-one with, pick someone that you're going to ask that you're not meeting with regularly.

因此，您进行一对一的议程，添加问题，日历条目适用于您没有一对一的人，选择您要询问但不定期会面的人。

Kim Scott: Absolutely.

金·斯科特：当然。

Or add it to the bottom of your next one-on-one agenda.

或者将其添加到下一个一对一议程的底部。

That's fair too.

这也很公平。

Either one.

任一者。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Kim, is there anything else you want to leave folks with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Kim，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想留给大家的吗？

Kim Scott: I think just remember, you do not have to choose between being successful and being a jerk.

金·斯科特：我想请记住，你不必在成功和混蛋之间做出选择。

You can be a successful kind person.

你可以成为一个成功的善良的人。

Lenny: Oh, I love that.

莱尼：哦，我喜欢这个。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, well with that, we've reached a very exciting lightning round.

好的，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

You've already mentioned a few but what do you want to share?

您已经提到了一些，但您想分享什么？

Kim Scott: Yes, I've mentioned a couple.

金·斯科特：是的，我提到了几个。

Please do buy Radical Respect, I believe that the more novels people read, the better.

请一定要买《激进的尊重》，我相信小说读得越多越好。

People often ask me, what can I do to move up on the care personally dimension of Radical Candor and read more novels?

人们经常问我，我可以做些什么来提升激进坦率的个人关怀维度并阅读更多小说？

This is the best way I know of to build compassion for other people, to understand the emotional signals that might be coming at you.

据我所知，这是建立对其他人的同情心、理解可能向你发出的情感信号的最佳方法。

I mean, some of my favorite novels are Middlemarch.

我的意思是，我最喜欢的一些小说是《米德尔马契》。

I try to reread that all the time.

我一直尝试重读它。

Anything that Toni Morrison wrote, the Bluest Eye is one of my favorite, but also Song of Solomon.

托妮·莫里森写的任何作品，《最蓝的眼睛》都是我的最爱之一，也是《所罗门之歌》。

It just such a brilliant writer and will help you enter into the lives of people that you haven't entered into.

这是一位才华横溢的作家，将帮助您进入您尚未进入的人们的生活。

I think that Orlando by Virginia Woolf is another one of my favorites.

我认为弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫的《奥兰多》是我的另一部最爱。

And Robertson Davies, the Deptford Trilogy is an incredible set of novels to read.

罗伯逊·戴维斯的《德特福德三部曲》是一套令人难以置信的小说。

I'm cheating now and giving you three.

我现在作弊了，给你三个。

Kim Scott: Yes, Alice Walker, the Color Purple is another one of my very favorite books, so I recommend reading more novels.

金·斯科特：是的，爱丽丝·沃克，《紫色》是我最喜欢的另一本书，所以我建议多读小说。

Lenny: I love this leaning into fiction that doesn't come up often on this podcast, so this is great.

莱尼：我喜欢这种对小说的偏爱，这在这个播客中并不经常出现，所以这很棒。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Kim Scott: I watched all 19 seasons of Grey's Anatomy with my daughter during and after COVID.

金·斯科特：在新冠疫情期间和之后，我和女儿一起看了《实习医生格蕾》的全部 19 季。

That was really fun.

那真的很有趣。

Lenny: Actually.

莱尼：事实上。

I did the same thing with my wife.

我对我的妻子做了同样的事情。

We didn't do all the seasons, but we watched a lot of Grey's Anatomy.

我们没有看完所有的季节，但我们看了很多《实习医生格蕾》。

Kim Scott: We watched every single one.

金·斯科特：我们每一部都看了。

It's still coming out.

它还出来了。

Lenny: Yeah, it's funny to see which characters continue and which I die off, leave.

莱尼：是的，看到哪些角色继续存在，哪些角色消失，离开，这很有趣。

Kim Scott: And Shonda Rhimes, I mean, watch her TED Talk, amazing person.

Kim Scott：还有 Shonda Rhimes，我的意思是，看看她的 TED 演讲，很棒的人。

Lenny: All right, we'll link to that in the show notes.

莱尼：好的，我们会在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask when you're interviewing people that might be helpful to folks interviewing?

当你面试别人时，你有没有最喜欢问的面试问题，这些问题可能对面试者有帮助？

Kim Scott: The question that I like to ask is just tell me the story of your career.

金·斯科特：我想问的问题就是告诉我你的职业生涯故事。

And I know that's kind of, maybe it's a hard, it seems like a softball, but it's actually can be unfairly hard or not.

我知道这可能是一个硬球，看起来像垒球，但实际上它可能会不公平地硬或不硬。

I don't know, unfairly hard, but I always learn a lot about people from how they tell the story of their life and their career.

我不知道，这太难了，但我总是从人们如何讲述自己的生活和职业故事中学到很多东西。

And then what I try to do is they'll say a couple of things that really interest me and I sort of double-click down into the details of a couple of aspects.

然后我尝试做的是他们会说一些我真正感兴趣的事情，然后我双击进入几个方面的细节。

I love people's life stories, so that makes it a more fun conversation for me.

我喜欢人们的生活故事，所以这对我来说是一个更有趣的谈话。

Often people like talking about themselves so it's not too painful for them, but you also learn all kinds of unexpected things.

通常人们喜欢谈论自己，这样对他们来说就不会太痛苦，但你也会学到各种意想不到的东西。

Lenny: And is there anything you're looking for in an answer that's like, this is a good person to hire or is it mostly information?

莱尼：您在答案中是否需要寻找诸如这是一个值得雇用的好人或者主要是信息之类的内容？

I'm just gathering a lot of background.

我只是收集了很多背景信息。

Kim Scott: I find that I learn how the person approaches setbacks from a story, from the way they tell a story.

金·斯科特：我发现我可以从一个人讲故事的方式中了解他如何应对挫折。

I learn whether a person is able to identify mistakes they made.

我了解一个人是否能够识别自己所犯的错误。

I mean, if you say, "Tell me the story of your career," if there's not a couple of mistakes in there, I also find that when they talk about accomplishments and then I double click on it, I learn a lot about what a person really did.

我的意思是，如果你说，“告诉我你职业生涯的故事”，如果其中没有一些错误，我还发现，当他们谈论成就然后我双击它时，我会了解到很多关于一个人真正做了什么的信息。

Sometimes a person will claim credit for something that just happened that they had very little to actually to do with, and I learn about very often.

有时，一个人会为刚刚发生的事情声称自己与他们实际上没有什么关系，我经常了解到这一点。

I find that a good way to learn about people's skills and depth of knowledge.

我发现这是了解人们的技能和知识深度的好方法。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Kim Scott: Yes.

金·斯科特：是的。

I love my new it's called Attitude, and they're shampoo bars and conditioner bars, so it comes in cardboard, wrapped in paper.

我喜欢我的新产品，它叫“态度”，它们是洗发水棒和护发素棒，所以它是用纸板包装的，用纸包裹。

There's no plastic.

没有塑料。

It's much more environmentally friendly, and I have long hair.

环保多了，而且我头发还长。

It gets very tingly and the conditioner works, so I recommend.

它变得非常刺痛，而且护发素也有效，所以我推荐。

Lenny: Very unique suggestion.

Lenny：非常独特的建议。

Is there a favorite motto that you often repeat to yourself, share with people, find useful to come back to in work or in life?

您是否经常对自己重复、与他人分享、发现在工作或生活中有用的最喜欢的座右铭？

Kim Scott: "It's not mean.

金·斯科特：“这并不意味着。

It's clear." This is something someone told me on the streets of Manhattan.

很清楚。”这是有人在曼哈顿街头告诉我的。

It's actually the origin story of Radical Candor.

这实际上是激进坦率的起源故事。

I was walking my dog, almost got hit by a cab, and this man, a perfect stranger, looked at me and he said, "I can tell you love that dog." That was all he had to do to move up on the care personally dimension, but he says, "You're going to kill that dog if you don't teach her to sit." And he pointed at the ground this kind of harsh gesture.

我正在遛狗，差点被出租车撞到，这个完全陌生的男人看着我说：“我可以看出你很喜欢那只狗。”这就是他在个人护理方面取得进步所要做的一切，但他说，“如果你不教她坐下，你就会杀了那只狗。”而且他还指着地面做出了这种严厉的手势。

He said, "Sit." The dog sat, had no idea she even knew what that meant.

他说：“坐吧。”狗坐着，不知道她甚至不知道这意味着什么。

And I kind of looked up at him in amazement and he said, "It's not mean.

我有点惊讶地抬头看着他，他说：“这并不意味着。

It's clear." And then the light changed and he walked off leaving me with words to live by.

很清楚。”然后灯光变了，他走开了，留下了我赖以生存的话语。

So I think about that stranger all the time.

所以我时时刻刻都在想着那个陌生人。

Lenny: Such a good story.

莱尼：真是个好故事。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

I read online that you started a diamond cutting factory in Moscow at some point in your life.

我在网上读到，您在人生的某个时刻在莫斯科创办了一家钻石切割工厂。

Can you please explain this part of your life?

你能解释一下你生活的这一部分吗？

Kim Scott: Yes.

金·斯科特：是的。

So I studied Russian literature in college, very practical major.

所以我在大学学习了俄罗斯文学，非常实用的专业。

And then I moved to what was then the Soviet Union in 1990 when I graduated from college, and I wound up taking a job with, first of all, I was with an investment company and then they pulled out of Russia and put the money in China.

1990年，当我大学毕业时，我搬到了当时的苏联，我最终找到了一份工作，首先，我在一家投资公司工作，然后他们撤出了俄罗斯，把钱放到了中国。

And so I wanted to stay in Russia and through a friend of a friend, I got a job working for this diamond company called Lazare Kaplan, new York-based diamond company, and they were trying to figure out what they should do in Russia.

所以我想留在俄罗斯，通过朋友的朋友，我在一家名为 Lazare Kaplan 的钻石公司找到了一份工作，这家总部位于纽约的钻石公司，他们正在努力弄清楚他们应该在俄罗斯做什么。

And I found out there was an opportunity to start this diamond cutting factory.

我发现有机会创办这家钻石切割工厂。

And it was actually my first management job because I had to hire these diamond cutters and I had to hire them away from these Russian diamond cutting factories and I knew nothing about management or business or anything.

这实际上是我的第一份管理工作，因为我必须雇用这些钻石切割师，而且我必须从这些俄罗斯钻石切割工厂雇用他们，而我对管理或业务或任何东西一无所知。

Kim Scott: I'd studied Russian literature.

金·斯科特：我学过俄罗斯文学。

I knew a lot about Dostoyevsky, so I thought it was going to be easy though.

我对陀思妥耶夫斯基了解很多，所以我认为这会很容易。

I was like, well, the ruble is collapsing.

我当时想，卢布正在崩溃。

I'm going to pay them in dollars.

我要用美元付给他们。

Of course they'll come work for me.

他们当然会来为我工作。

But they didn't take the job right away.

但他们并没有立即接受这份工作。

To my surprise, they wanted to have a picnic.

令我惊讶的是，他们想要去野餐。

And at the picnic we brought a bottle of vodka, and there's a rule in Russia, if you open a bottle, you got to finish the bottle.

野餐时我们带了一瓶伏特加，俄罗斯有一条规定，如果你打开一瓶，就必须喝完。

Kim Scott: So by the end of the bottle of vodka, I realized that what I could offer that the state could not offer them was to give a damn about them.

金·斯科特：喝完这瓶伏特加后，我意识到我可以提供国家无法提供的东西，那就是不在乎他们。

They wanted to know that I would be a manager who would get them out of Russia if things went sideways there.

他们想知道，如果俄罗斯局势出现问题，我会成为一名带领他们离开俄罗斯的主教练。

And as you can imagine, I've been thinking a lot about, they were all men, about these men because I haven't been able to get them out.

正如你可以想象的，我一直在思考，他们都是男人，关于这些男人，因为我一直没能把他们赶出去。

And I'm devastated by what Russia has done to Ukraine, but that was the moment when I realized that management really matters, and that to be good at it, you have to care about other people.

我对俄罗斯对乌克兰所做的事情感到震惊，但那一刻我意识到管理确实很重要，而要做好管理，你必须关心其他人。

And that was what made it interesting to me.

这就是让我感兴趣的原因。

Lenny: Man, that is a heavy first job as a manager.

莱尼：伙计，作为经理，这是一份繁重的工作。

Lenny: Wow, Kim, this was awesome.

莱尼：哇，金，这太棒了。

I think we're going to help a lot of people become better leaders.

我认为我们将帮助很多人成为更好的领导者。

I think we're going to help a lot of companies change their culture.

我认为我们将帮助很多公司改变他们的文化。

I'm so honored that you agreed to do this.

我很荣幸你同意这样做。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to follow up and learn more about your stuff?

如果人们想要跟进并了解有关您的内容的更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And then two, how can listeners be helpful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有帮助？

Kim Scott: Radicalcandor.com is our website, and I'm not much on Twitter slash X anymore, but you can find us.

Kim Scott：Radicalandor.com 是我们的网站，我不再经常使用 Twitter 斜线 X，但您可以找到我们。

We do a lot of posting on LinkedIn.

我们在 LinkedIn 上发布了很多帖子。

I think that the thing that people can help me do is to send us a note.

我认为人们可以帮助我做的就是给我们发一张便条。

You can also email us radicalcandor@radicalcandor.com and let us know what could we do in podcasts like this or in our materials?

您还可以给我们发电子邮件 Radicandor@radicalcandor.com，让我们知道我们可以在这样的播客或我们的材料中做什么？

What could we do that would make it easier for you to put these ideas into practice?

我们可以做什么才能让您更轻松地将这些想法付诸实践？

Because Radical Candor is, it's about behavior change, and it sounds easy, but it's really hard, and we're always trying to figure out how to help people walk the talk here.

因为激进坦率是关于行为改变，听起来很容易，但实际上很难，我们一直在努力找出如何帮助人们言出必行。

Lenny: I think doing this podcast is going to make a dent in that goal.

莱尼：我认为做这个播客将会对这个目标产生影响。

Lenny: Kim, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：金，非常感谢你来到这里。

Kim Scott: Thank you.

金·斯科特：谢谢。

I really enjoyed it.

我真的很喜欢它。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcasts.com.

您可以在 lenny'spodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。