'Unorthodox PM tips: Automating user insights, unselling candidates, decision logs, more | Kevin Yien'

Kevin Yien: The PM job can become a little too internal, influencing my stakeholders and getting alignment and all these things.

Kevin Yien：PM 工作可能会变得有点过于内部化，影响我的利益相关者并达成一致等等。

But if you can't sell or support your own product, I don't trust you to build the product.

但如果你不能销售或支持自己的产品，我就不相信你能制造出这个产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: You think every PM should keep a decision log?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为每个 PM 都应该保留决策日志吗？

Kevin Yien: We all talk about product sense.

Kevin Yien：我们都在谈论产品感。

To me, it's just a fancy way of saying you can make good decisions with insufficient data.

对我来说，这只是一种奇特的说法，表明你可以在数据不足的情况下做出正确的决策。

PMs need as many reps as possible in making decisions, documenting the rationale behind those decisions, and then crucially seeing the outcome of them.

产品经理需要尽可能多的代表来制定决策，记录这些决策背后的理由，然后至关重要地查看决策的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: We have a lot of interesting approaches to hiring, including this idea of a unsell email.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们有很多有趣的招聘方法，包括推销电子邮件的想法。

Kevin Yien: When you get to offer stage, I send an email and I say all the terrible things that are probably going to reinforce their fears.

Kevin Yien：当你进入报价阶段时，我会发送一封电子邮件，并说出所有可能会加剧他们恐惧的可怕事情。

If you can tell them that upfront and they can read that whole email and still be equally excited to join you, find yourself a A+ hire.

如果您可以提前告诉他们这一点，并且他们可以阅读整封电子邮件并且仍然同样兴奋地加入您，那么您将成为 A+ 员工。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious if you found any interesting uses of AI in your work.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇您是否在您的工作中发现了人工智能的任何有趣用途。

Kevin Yien: We are not even beneath the dust on the surface when it comes to what's going to change.

Kevin Yien：当谈到将要发生的变化时，我们甚至还没有在表面的灰尘之下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Kevin Yien.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是 Kevin Yien。

Kevin leads product for merchant experiences at Stripe.

Kevin 在 Stripe 领导商家体验产品。

Before that, he built the restaurant business and the ecosystem teams at Square, and most recently was head of product and design at Mutiny.

在此之前，他在 Square 建立了餐厅业务和生态系统团队，最近担任 Mutiny 的产品和设计主管。

He also makes ice cream and, as you'll hear in there conversation, was a pretty competitive eater for some part of his life.

他还制作冰淇淋，正如您在谈话中听到的那样，他在一生中的某些时候是一个非常有竞争力的食客。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Kevin shares a ton of unique and insightful perspectives on how to be a successful product manager, including how to get into product management, how to improve your relationship with your engineers and designers, bunch of advice on hiring, why you should keep a decision log, how to automate your customer research, plus a ton of really powerful stories around failure and AI and career.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Kevin 分享了许多关于如何成为一名成功的产品经理的独特而富有洞察力的观点，包括如何进入产品管理、如何改善与工程师和设计师的关系、一堆关于招聘的建议、为什么你应该保留决策日志、如何自动化你的客户研究，以及大量关于失败、人工智能和职业的真正有力的故事。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is for anyone looking to become a better leader, thinker, and builder of products.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集适合任何希望成为更好的领导者、思想家和产品构建者的人。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并关注您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Kevin Yien.

接下来，我为您带来凯文·伊恩 (Kevin Yien)。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kevin, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：凯文，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Kevin Yien: Thanks, Lenny.

凯文·伊恩：谢谢，莱尼。

I am humbled to be here.

我很荣幸来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've been a big fan of yours from afar.

Lenny Rachitsky：我一直是你的忠实粉丝。

I've been following you on Twitter for a long time.

我在 Twitter 上关注你已经很长时间了。

You have a very distinct profile photo that I feel like you maybe haven't changed for a long time.

你有一张非常独特的个人资料照片，我觉得你可能已经很长时间没有改变了。

How long have you had this profile?

您拥有此个人资料多久了？

Kevin Yien: Oh gosh, probably 2011 or 2012.

Kevin Yien：天哪，可能是 2011 年或 2012 年。

The story behind that is I was inspired actually by Chris Dixon's avatar at the time and I wanted something really similar to it, but I couldn't figure out how to.

这背后的故事是，我实际上受到了克里斯·迪克森当时的化身的启发，我想要一些与它非常相似的东西，但我不知道如何去做。

Luckily, I was dating a designer at the time, and so she made me that sort of custom pick that has been my profile since then, and she's now my wife.

幸运的是，我当时正在和一位设计师约会，所以她给我做了那种定制选择，从那时起，这一直是我的个人资料，她现在是我的妻子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my god.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪。

Funny enough, I had a startup idea once where it's like a profile picture as a service business where there's these three tiers where it's like one has automated, one has someone illustrates, and one is a professional photo.

有趣的是，我曾经有过一个创业想法，它就像一个个人资料图片作为一项服务业务，其中有这三个层次，其中一个是自动化的，一个是有人插图的，一个是专业照片。

It feels like everyone profile photos are so important.

感觉每个人的个人资料照片都很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: But I never follow through.

Lenny Rachitsky：但我从来没有坚持到底。

Probably not a good business anyway.

无论如何，可能都不是一个好生意。

Kevin Yien: Yeah, but a good idea, a good tool.

Kevin Yien：是的，但这是一个好主意，一个好工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good idea.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好主意。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you for making me feel better.

谢谢你让我感觉好多了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

Lenny Rachitsky：我期待这次谈话已经很久了。

As I said, I've been a big fan of yours for a long time.

正如我所说，我长期以来一直是你的忠实粉丝。

Something that I've noticed about you is you have a lot of really unique perspectives on a lot of different things, and in particular, product management, how to be successful as a PM, how to get into product management, things like that.

我注意到你对很多不同的事情有很多非常独特的观点，特别是产品管理，如何成为成功的产品经理，如何进入产品管理，诸如此类的事情。

So I thought it'd be fun to start there talking through some of these things that I've heard you talk about and then get into some very tactical stuff that you found to be useful in your product management career.

因此，我认为从这里开始讨论我听过您谈论的一些事情，然后讨论一些您发现对您的产品管理职业生涯有用的非常战术性的内容会很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: The first thing that I've heard you talk about is that you discourage people from going straight into product management.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听到你谈论的第一件事是你不鼓励人们直接进入产品管理。

If they want to become product managers, you encourage them to start somewhere else first.

如果他们想成为产品经理，你鼓励他们先从其他地方开始。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Where do you think people should start?

您认为人们应该从哪里开始？

Talk about this insight that you've had.

谈谈你的这一见解。

Kevin Yien: Yeah, so follow me on the detour to science world temporarily.

Kevin Yien：是啊，那就跟着我暂时绕道科学世界吧。

If we all remember high school science classes, there was this concept of potential and kinetic energy.

如果我们都记得高中科学课，就有势能和动能的概念。

There's so many different definitions for product management, but the one that I have come to myself that I really like is, when you are building a product, you have this team, engineers, designers, so much potential.

产品管理有很多不同的定义，但我自己真正喜欢的一个定义是，当你构建一款产品时，你有这个团队、工程师、设计师，他们有很大的潜力。

The purpose of product management, not the person, but the practice, is to convert that potential into as much realized value for someone as possible, right?

产品管理的目的，不是人，而是实践，是将潜力转化为尽可能多的为某人实现的价值，对吗？

Minimum loss.

损失最小化。

When you're just getting started with a new product, the people that should be doing that are the people who are building it.

当你刚刚开始使用新产品时，应该做这件事的人就是构建它的人。

That's an engineer, that's a designer, that's a sales person or a support person.

那是工程师，那是设计师，那是销售人员或支持人员。

They're the front line of the smallest loop possible to get something going, and it's through those practices that I think you're able to get the most exposure to what it takes to build a good product.

他们是让事情顺利进行的最小循环的前线，我认为通过这些实践，你能够最大程度地了解构建优质产品所需的知识。

Kevin Yien: And then from there, that's your foundation.

Kevin Yien：然后，这就是你的基础。

That's the unique perspective that you bring and allows you then to actually take on a "role" of product manager in a good, unique, insightful way.

这就是你带来的独特视角，让你能够以一种良好、独特、富有洞察力的方式真正扮演产品经理的“角色”。

That's sort of like the foundation.

这有点像基础。

There's a lot more to unpack behind that comparison, but that's where it comes from.

在这种比较背后还有很多东西需要解开，但这就是它的来源。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I'd love to unpack it further.: This episode is brought to you by BuildBetter.AI.

我很想进一步解开它。：本集由 BuildBetter.AI 为您带来。

Back in 2020 when AI was just a toy, BuildBetter bet that it could cut down on a product teams' operational BS.

早在 2020 年，当人工智能还只是一个玩具时，BuildBetter 就押注它可以减少产品团队的运营废话。

Fast-forward to today, 23,000 product teams use purpose-built AI in BuildBetter every day.

快进到今天，每天都有 23,000 个产品团队在 BuildBetter 中使用专门构建的 AI。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I'd love to unpack it further.: First, BuildBetter uses custom models to turn unstructured data like product and sales calls, support tickets, internal communications, and surveys into structured insights.

我很想进一步解开它：首先，BuildBetter 使用自定义模型将非结构化数据（例如产品和销售电话、支持票证、内部通信和调查）转换为结构化见解。

It's like having a dedicated data science team.

这就像拥有一个专门的数据科学团队。

Second, BuildBetter runs those structured insights into workflows, like weekly reports about customer issues, context-aware PRDs, and user research document with citations.

其次，BuildBetter 将这些结构化洞察运行到工作流程中，例如有关客户问题的每周报告、上下文感知 PRD 以及带引文的用户研究文档。

It even turns standups into action items that automatically get assigned and shared into your tools.

它甚至可以将站立会议变成行动项目，并自动分配并共享到您的工具中。

Plus, with unlimited seat pricing on all plans, BuildBetter ensures everyone at your company has access to this knowledge.

此外，BuildBetter 对所有计划均提供无限席位定价，确保您公司的每个人都能获得这些知识。

Truly, no data silos.

确实，没有数据孤岛。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I'd love to unpack it further.: In a world of AI demos over promising and under delivering, see why BuildBetter has a 93% subscription retention.

我很想进一步解开它：在 AI 演示的世界中，承诺过多而交付不足，看看为什么 BuildBetter 的订阅保留率高达 93%。

Get a personalized demo and use code LENNY for $100 credit if you sign up now at buildbetter.ai/lenny.

如果您立即在 buildbetter.ai/lenny 注册，即可获得个性化演示并使用代码 LENNY 获得 100 美元积分。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I'd love to unpack it further.: I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

我很想进一步解开它。：我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Hi, Christina.

嗨，克里斯蒂娜。

Christina: Yes, thank you for having me on, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜：是的，谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？

I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta, Scale, and Watershed.

我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta、Scale 和 Watershed。

I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.

我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。

Christina: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.

Christina：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。

We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds.

我们经常看到我们的客户被黑客攻击和解决方法所困扰。

And the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.

与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。

We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.

我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema and not just to build it but also to maintain it forever.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用像 OneSchema 这样的东西，并且不仅可以构建它，而且可以永远维护它，那该多好啊。

Christina: Absolutely, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many four stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of bad records.

我们已经听过很多四起多天停机的故事，甚至只是少数不良记录。

We have laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.

我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。

We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.

我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Christina, thank you for joining us.

克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们。

If you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: Every PM has their definition of what is product management, and I have one that I'm trying to find exactly what I wrote, but essentially, it's to marshal the resources of your team to solve customer problems and drive business impact most efficiently, something like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：每个 PM 对什么是产品管理都有自己的定义，我也有一个定义，我正在努力找到我所写的内容，但本质上，它是整合团队资源来解决客户问题并最有效地推动业务影响，诸如此类。

And I feel like it's very aligned with your perspective, but I really love this view of it's unlocking the potential energy of the team.

我觉得这与你的观点非常一致，但我真的很喜欢这种释放团队潜在能量的观点。

Not just marshaling the resources of a team, but it's there, and your job is to maximize their effort.

不仅仅是整合团队的资源，而且它就在那里，而你的工作就是最大限度地发挥他们的努力。

And this is why when people say, "I hate product managers.

这就是为什么当人们说：“我讨厌产品经理。

I don't want any product managers at my team.

我的团队中不需要任何产品经理。

We don't need product managers here," I feel like that's often because you've had a bad PM.

我们这里不需要产品经理。”我觉得这通常是因为你有一个糟糕的产品经理。

Good PMs make you better and make your life better, allow you to do the work you want to do and they take all the stuff you don't want to do, make sure the stuff you're doing is worthwhile.

好的PM会让你变得更好，让你的生活变得更好，让你做你想做的工作，他们会接受你不想做的所有事情，确保你正在做的事情是值得的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything more you want to add along those lines?

Lenny Rachitsky：您还有什么要补充的吗？

Kevin Yien: To elaborate on that, I think the broader point is that truly not every team needs a product manager, but the activities, the outcome that one would drive needs to get done no matter what.

Kevin Yien：为了详细说明这一点，我认为更广泛的一点是，实际上并不是每个团队都需要产品经理，但无论如何，他们所推动的活动和结果都需要完成。

And in some cases, this is why the prototypical companies that everyone references when they say, "They never had product managers, look at how successful they are," they're all building for themselves.

在某些情况下，这就是为什么每个人都会提到的典型公司，当他们说“他们从来没有产品经理，看看他们有多成功”时，他们都是在为自己建设。

Stripe, Twilio, Figma, designers for designers, engineers for engineers.

Stripe、Twilio、Figma，设计师为设计师，工程师为工程师。

When you are the customer, why the heck do you need someone else to help do the things that let you make decisions on what to build?

当您是客户时，为什么您需要其他人来帮助您做出构建内容的决策呢？

But if you are not the customer, if you're working in a particularly complex space, if there's something that you, as the person that could build the product, feel you don't have, that's when you can essentially delegate that responsibility to someone else to say, "Hey, let me do the things I'm really good at and you do something that I need to get my job done."

但是，如果你不是客户，如果你在一个特别复杂的空间中工作，如果你作为可以构建产品的人觉得自己没有某些东西，那么你基本上可以将该责任委托给其他人，然后说：“嘿，让我做我真正擅长的事情，你做一些我完成工作所需的事情。”

Kevin Yien: So it's that sort of relationship that I think is often missing in the discourse.

凯文·伊恩：所以我认为这种关系在讨论中经常缺失。

I think it would alleviate a lot of the, "We don't want PMs.

我认为这会缓解很多“我们不需要产品经理。

PM is useless" or, "PM's one of the best thing since ," which they're not.

PM 毫无用处”或者“PM 是自 19 世纪以来最好的事情之一”，但事实并非如此。

It's just a manifestation of that problem.

这只是这个问题的一个表现。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Just to build on that, we're going on a tangent, but I think that's really interesting.

在此基础上，我们将偏离主题，但我认为这真的很有趣。

I think there's another element of that, SNAP actually is another example where they waited, I think, until they had 200 people before they hired their first PM.

我认为还有另一个因素，SNAP 实际上是另一个例子，我认为，他们一直等到拥有 200 名员工才聘请第一位 PM。

To me, that's an example of other people were doing the PM job.

对我来说，这是其他人从事 PM 工作的一个例子。

As you said, there's PM activity, someone's doing them, lining people, prioritizing, making sure things are clear, making sure people aren't surprised, all these things PMs do.

正如你所说，有 PM 活动，有人在做这些事情，安排人员，确定优先级，确保事情清晰，确保人们不会感到惊讶，所有这些事情都是 PM 所做的。

Someone's doing that, and my feeling is like, "Okay, your designers may love doing that, great.

有人这样做了，我的感觉是，“好吧，你的设计师可能喜欢这样做，太棒了。

Let them do it." If your engineers that have a lot of product sense may want to do that, great.

让他们来做吧。”如果您的工程师具有丰富的产品意识可能想要这样做，那就太好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: But there's some point they either is like, "Forget it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：但在某些时候他们都会说，“算了吧。

I just want to code.

我只想写代码。

I want to build that.

我想建造那个。

I want to be sitting around in meetings all day," or they just aren't as good as things are scaling.

我想整天坐在会议上，”或者他们只是没有事情扩展那么好。

And so it's kind of like, if your engineers, designers want to do it and are good at it, great.

所以这有点像，如果你的工程师、设计师想要做到这一点并且擅长它，那就太好了。

You don't need PMs for a long time.

你很长一段时间都不需要PM。

Oftentimes they're not good at it or they don't want to be sitting in doing all these PM things.

通常他们不擅长，或者他们不想坐下来做所有这些 PM 的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so going back to the question of...

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，那么回到问题......

So your advice is don't go straight into product management if you want to become a great PM.

所以你的建议是，如果你想成为一名优秀的产品经理，不要直接进入产品管理。

Where do you think people should start if they can?

如果可以的话，您认为人们应该从哪里开始？

What are some options you recommend?

您推荐哪些选择？

Kevin Yien: The best way to think about this, in my opinion, is who were the people that you would be taking the PM responsibilities from and then do those jobs?

Kevin Yien：在我看来，思考这个问题的最佳方式是，你将从谁那里接任总理职责，然后从事这些工作？

And so for me, the sort of foundational three are going to be engineer, designer or salesperson.

所以对我来说，最基本的三人将是工程师、设计师或销售人员。

I think sales also gets not a bad rep, but a misrepresented reputation in tech where all they care about is quota, it's just about numbers, et cetera.

我认为销售也得到了不错的声誉，但在科技领域却受到了歪曲的声誉，他们关心的只是配额，而只是数字等等。

In reality, the best salespeople are the best listeners, the best people at understanding the problem that the customer is having and then translating that into what you can do for them.

事实上，最好的销售人员是最好的倾听者，最善于理解客户遇到的问题，然后将其转化为你能为他们做的事情。

And so if you get really good at having those calls, getting told no a lot, and being able to translate that, I mean, why would you not want to start there and then eventually move into something like product?

因此，如果你真的很擅长接这些电话，经常被告知“不”，并且能够翻译这些内容，我的意思是，为什么你不想从那里开始，然后最终转向产品之类的领域呢？

So that's the foundational three for me.

这对我来说是最基本的三点。

Lenny Rachitsky: So your advice is essentially if you want to be a PM, start as a designer or an engineer or a salesperson.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你的建议基本上是，如果你想成为一名产品经理，首先从设计师、工程师或销售人员开始。

I was an engineer, so this is exactly the path I went on.

我是一名工程师，所以这正是我所走的路。

And I think there's an element of you start there and then you realize you're never going to be as amazing as the other people at that role and you're like, "Okay, maybe I should explore this other thing," because I was like, "I'm never going to be an amazing engineer.

我认为你从那里开始，然后你意识到你永远不会像那个职位的其他人一样出色，你会想，“好吧，也许我应该探索其他事情，”因为我想，“我永远不会成为一名出色的工程师。

I'm good enough."

我已经足够好了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm like, "I'm pretty good at this other stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想，“我在其他方面也很擅长。

Let's explore that."

让我们来探讨一下。”

Kevin Yien: The one thing that I might tack on there, because this could lead to a negative perception, is, "Well, I'm never going to be a world-class engineer, world-class designer or et cetera, and so let me settle for being a PM." That could be the conclusion you arrive at, but I think a better way of framing it is, "I'm okay at those things.

Kevin Yien：我可能会补充的一件事是，因为这可能会导致负面看法，“好吧，我永远不会成为一名世界级工程师、世界级设计师等等，所以让我满足于成为一名产品经理。”这可能是你得出的结论，但我认为更好的表达方式是：“我对这些事情没问题。

I'm potentially world-class at this other thing.

我在另一件事上可能是世界级的。

Let me see what it feels like to double down on this area."

让我看看在这个领域加倍努力是什么感觉。”

Kevin Yien: And I think that's just a good framing.

Kevin Yien：我认为这是一个很好的框架。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let's talk about another insight and piece of advice that you have, is that you think that great PMs need to be great writers.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我们谈谈您的另一个见解和建议，您认为伟大的产品经理必须是伟大的作家。

I think a lot of people don't necessarily think this.

我想很多人不一定这么认为。

I think people may probably think, "If I'm an okay writer, I can probably be really successful PM." Talk about why you think it's so important to be a really great writer to be a really great PM.

我想人们可能会想，“如果我是一个不错的作家，我可能会成为真正成功的总理。”谈谈为什么你认为成为一名真正伟大的作家对于成为一名真正伟大的 PM 如此重要。

Kevin Yien: It's actually shocking for me to hear that this isn't commonplace sort of acceptance, but the place that this comes from for me is, writing is clarity at scale, and a key component to a PM's job is creating clarity both internally and externally, but it is both sides of that that I think often get lost.

Kevin Yien：听到这并不是一种常见的接受方式，这实际上让我感到震惊，但对我来说，写作的目的是在规模上保持清晰，而产品经理工作的一个关键组成部分是在内部和外部创造清晰度，但我认为这两个方面经常被迷失。

A lot of times the PM job can become a little too internal, and it's about influencing my stakeholders and getting alignment and all these things.

很多时候，PM 的工作可能会变得有点过于内部化，它是关于影响我的利益相关者并取得一致以及所有这些事情。

Don't get me wrong, all that's very important.

别误会我的意思，这一切都非常重要。

You should write your PRDs, they should be super crisp, they should articulate things really well, but I'm not saying that every PM needs to be a marketer or a world-class copywriter, but you should be able to write really compelling messaging in the voice of the person that you're trying to serve.

你应该写你的 PRD，它们应该非常清晰，它们应该很好地表达事情，但我并不是说每个 PM 都需要成为营销人员或世界级的文案撰稿人，但你应该能够以你想要服务的人的声音写出真正引人注目的消息。

And I'm working backwards from the beliefs that, if you can't sell or support your own product, I don't trust you to build the product.

我的信念是，如果你不能销售或支持自己的产品，我就不相信你能制造出这个产品。

And so that's where I think writing is the foundational component there.

所以我认为写作是那里的基础组成部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a few quotes I say often on this podcast just because they always come to mind.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在这个播客上经常引用一些引言，因为它们总是浮现在我的脑海中。

One is by Joan Didion who said that, "I don't know what I think until I've written it down." And that's what I find with writing where I need to actually write it down for me to really understand what the heck I'm thinking to really crystallize it.

其中之一是琼·迪迪恩 (Joan Didion) 写的，她说：“在我把它写下来之前，我不知道自己在想什么。”这就是我在写作中发现的，我需要把它写下来，这样我才能真正理解我到底在想什么，才能真正具体化它。

Kevin Yien: Yeah, and I think writing is, it's both a mechanism for translating what you're trying to think into that thought into what you're actually trying to do, but then it needs additional revs to be properly consumed by everyone else.

凯文·伊恩：是的，我认为写作是一种机制，可以将你想要的想法转化为你实际上想要做的事情，但它需要额外的转速才能被其他人正确消耗。

And that's I think the really hard part that a lot of folks don't do the extra mile effort to take on.

我认为这就是真正困难的部分，很多人没有付出额外的努力来承担。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this to your earlier point of a job of PM is to unlock this potential energy of your team, of the various resources you have and obviously having everyone aligned behind a very, like, "This is what we are doing and everyone understanding it" and it being very clear is really powerful there.

Lenny Rachitsky：您之前提到的 PM 工作就是要释放团队的潜在能量，释放您所拥有的各种资源的潜力，并且显然让每个人都团结起来，就像“这就是我们正在做的事情，每个人都理解它”，而且非常清楚这一点确实非常强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So this begs the question, how does one become a great writer?

那么这就引出了一个问题，一个人如何成为一名伟大的作家？

What helped you become a better writer?

是什么帮助你成为一名更好的作家？

How do you feel about your ability to write at this point?

您现在对自己的写作能力有何感想？

Lenny Rachitsky: Any advise on becoming better?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于变得更好有什么建议吗？

Kevin Yien: I'll start with a slightly cheeky comment, which is, I think some of this is changing with the advent of large language models and the ability to actually just mimic someone else's tone.

Kevin Yien：我首先要发表一个有点厚颜无耻的评论，那就是，我认为随着大型语言模型的出现以及实际上只是模仿别人语气的能力，其中一些正在改变。

But I take inspiration from the camp of Anthony Bourdain, and he has, I'm going to butcher the exact quote but it's something like, "If you want to know how to make good food, you have to eat a lot of food, and you have to be willing to have a bad meal every now and again." And so for me, good writing comes from consuming as much good writing as possible.

但我从安东尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）的阵营中获得了灵感，他有，我要删掉原话，但它就像是，“如果你想知道如何做美味的食物，你必须吃很多食物，而且你必须愿意时不时地吃一顿糟糕的饭菜。”所以对我来说，好的写作来自于尽可能多地吸收好的写作。

Sometimes you'll read something and say, "That was actually absolute fresh." But that's okay, you have to be willing to take on some of that stuff.

有时你会读到一些东西并说：“这实际上是绝对新鲜的。”但没关系，你必须愿意承担其中的一些事情。

But the more you index towards developing your own taste for what you think is good by consuming others, then you can shift into producing your own and then comparing them and riffing it off other people.

但是，你越是通过消费别人的东西来培养自己对你认为好的东西的品味，那么你就可以转向生产自己的东西，然后比较它们并模仿其他人的东西。

So I think that's sort of the cycle that I've gone through.

所以我认为这就是我经历过的循环。

Lenny Rachitsky: I have a friend who's a very good writer and a poet and helped me develop my writing early on, Vanessa, and she said exactly the same thing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我有一个朋友瓦妮莎，她是一位非常优秀的作家和诗人，她很早就帮助我发展了我的写作，她也说了完全相同的事情。

Just to become a better writer, read beautiful writing, and it just kind of infuses you or your brain.

只是为了成为一名更好的作家，阅读美丽的作品，它会注入你或你的大脑。

In your experience, is there anything you read, anything you found really effective?

根据您的经验，您是否读过任何内容或发现任何内容真正有效？

Anything that you think influenced the way you write or think that people can check out?

您认为有哪些因素影响了您的写作方式或认为人们可以查看的方式？

Kevin Yien: I explicitly do not mean read a bunch of other PM artifacts.

Kevin Yien：我明确的意思并不是要阅读一堆其他 PM 工件。

You're not going to become a better writer by reading PRDs or whatever it is or support articles.

通过阅读 PRD 或其他任何内容或支持文章，您不会成为一名更好的作家。

It needs to be writing that compels.

必须是有说服力的写作。

That's the theme I would go back to because that's what you're trying to do at the end of the day.

这就是我要回到的主题，因为这就是你在一天结束时想要做的事情。

Kevin Yien: And when I say compels, I mean it pushes you to action.

Kevin Yien：当我说“强迫”时，我的意思是它会促使你采取行动。

Because if you read something and you're like, "Oh, that's interesting," that's not enough.

因为如果你读了一些东西，然后你会说，“哦，这很有趣”，但这还不够。

You need to be able to give someone something that then allows them to do something differently.

你需要能够给某人一些东西，然后让他们做一些不同的事情。

And so the things for me that have been best...

所以对我来说最好的事情......

Obviously there's all the Paul Graham essays, I think his writing is very succinct, very clear, that's not novel.

显然有保罗·格雷厄姆的所有文章，我认为他的写作非常简洁，非常清晰，这并不新颖。

I learned a lot by finding specific voices back in the day on Twitter, and it wasn't always what they were posting on Twitter, but if they wrote an essay or a post, that would be their crispus thinking.

我通过在 Twitter 上找到当时的特定声音学到了很多东西，这些声音并不总是他们在 Twitter 上发布的内容，但如果他们写了一篇文章或一篇文章，那将是他们的清晰思考。

And so you can use these broadcast channels to find where their golden nuggets are, but then spend time with those instead and don't worry about all the additional noise that comes with it.

因此，您可以使用这些广播频道来查找他们的金块在哪里，然后花时间在这些频道上，而不必担心随之而来的所有额外噪音。

Lenny Rachitsky: Paul Graham actually, you mentioned him, he has a great piece on how to become a good, that we'll link to, where basically his advice is, write the way you talk.

伦尼·拉奇茨基：保罗·格雷厄姆实际上，你提到过他，他有一篇关于如何成为优秀人的精彩文章，我们将链接到该文章，基本上他的建议是，按照你说话的方式写作。

Just keep it really simple and really regular.

只要保持非常简单和非常规律即可。

And so we'll link to that.

因此我们将链接到该内容。

Is there anything else along these lines of writing that you'd recommend for folks that are like, "Okay, I need to become a great writer.

对于那些像“好吧，我需要成为一名伟大的作家”的人，您还有什么其他的写作思路可以推荐吗？

How do I do this?"?

我该怎么做？”

Kevin Yien: Actually along the lines of write how you talk, there's this concept of cadence that I think is really important when it comes to internal writing.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：实际上，就像说话的方式一样，我认为在内部写作方面，节奏的概念非常重要。

There's probably some very good article about this, but it's the idea that if you only write in a monotonous cadence, either all really short sentences or all really long sentences, then your brain just tunes out eventually.

可能有一些关于这方面的非常好的文章，但它的想法是，如果你只以单调的节奏写作，要么都是非常短的句子，要么都是非常长的句子，那么你的大脑最终就会失去知觉。

And so you have to interrupt the pattern intentionally, and so you go short-long, long-short, whatever it is, but there's a few various specific things that you can do that allow someone to just roll through a post or something when you write that way.

所以你必须有意地打断这个模式，所以你可以短-长、长-短，无论是什么，但是你可以做一些不同的具体事情，让别人在你这样写的时候可以浏览一篇文章或其他东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, there's a book that I just found to make sure I had the right title called Several Short Sentences About Writing that is really helpful along these lines.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，我刚刚找到了一本书，以确保我有正确的标题，名为《关于写作的几个短句》，这本书在这些方面确实很有帮助。

And the whole book is very short sentences and it teaches you to write very short sentences because once you're good at that, you can get better writing longer sentences.

整本书都是很短的句子，它教你写很短的句子，因为一旦你擅长这个，你就能更好地写更长的句子。

And so we'll link to that too.

所以我们也会链接到它。

It's like a really good book that I have two copies around my house that I kind of poke at sometimes.

这就像一本非常好的书，我家里有两本，有时我会翻看一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Another area that you have a really clever insight into is how the PM role fits with engineering design.

您真正了解的另一个领域是 PM 角色如何与工程设计相适应。

We've talked about this a little bit, but you have a really clever way of just thinking about how these roles interact and who's responsible for what.

我们已经对此进行了一些讨论，但是您有一种非常聪明的方法来思考这些角色如何相互作用以及谁负责什么。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Kevin Yien: So this description came from writing PRDs at Square.

Kevin Yien：所以这个描述来自于在 Square 写 PRD。

I think there was a lot of confusion from my team specifically when I joined them.

我认为我的团队有很多困惑，特别是当我加入他们时。

For what it's worth, it was new product line, three engineers, three designers, there was nothing but a slide deck.

就其价值而言，它是新的产品线，三名工程师，三名设计师，除了幻灯片之外什么都没有。

Lenny Rachitsky: Three engineers and three designers?

Lenny Rachitsky：三名工程师和三名设计师？

Kevin Yien: The best ratio ever.

Kevin Yien：有史以来最好的比例。

This is a whole other thing.

这完全是另一回事。

Most people, I would say, under invest in design, point-blank.

我想说，大多数人对设计的投资都不够直白。

When you get to a certain scale, maybe things change, but truly I don't think most teams have experienced what it feels like to have a really high design ratio and what that actually does to the quality of the work and the quality of the thinking.

当你达到一定规模时，也许事情会发生变化，但实际上，我认为大多数团队都没有经历过拥有真正高设计比例的感觉，以及这对工作质量和思维质量的实际影响。

So shout out to designers.

所以向设计师大声喊叫。

We need more, is the short version.

我们需要更多，是简短的版本。

And I would rather hire an incremental designer than PM almost any day of the week.

我宁愿雇用一名增量设计师，也不愿雇用几乎一周中的任何一天的 PM。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I've never experienced this ratio.

我从来没有经历过这个比例。

Incredible.

极好的。

Kevin Yien: Yes, I was very lucky.

凯文·伊恩：是的，我很幸运。

Shout out to Bruce Bell, who was my manager at the time, who was an ex designer, at the time, GM, and declared that starting ratio.

向布鲁斯·贝尔致敬，他是我当时的经理，前设计师，当时的总经理，并宣布了起始比例。

Kevin Yien: So anyways, with that setup, they all had sort of an opinion.

Kevin Yien：无论如何，通过这样的设置，他们都有了某种意见。

They had seen PRDs in the past, they weren't quite sure what the purpose of it actually was because they had designs already.

他们过去见过 PRD，但不太确定它的实际用途是什么，因为他们已经有了设计。

They had something to start from.

他们有一些可以开始的事情。

And when I came in and talked to everyone and figured out where we needed to be in a year's time, I was like, "Okay, here's how I think it.

当我进来与每个人交谈并弄清楚一年后我们需要达到的目标时，我说：“好吧，这就是我的想法。

Let me know if you agree." And this is a whole other concept, which is, the best way to get feedback from people is not by asking what they think, but to put something concrete in front of them and then have them react to it, right?

如果你同意的话请告诉我。”这是一个完全不同的概念，也就是说，从人们那里获得反馈的最好方法不是询问他们的想法，而是把一些具体的东西摆在他们面前，然后让他们做出反应，对吗？

So chewing fork.

所以咀嚼叉子。

Kevin Yien: And so my description is, PM should be doing everything in their power to draw the perimeter of the space, of the problem space.

Kevin Yien：所以我的描述是，PM 应该尽其所能来绘制问题空间的边界。

And it's within that, eng, design, everyone else that you're working with, they can go as crazy as they want, push up against the bounds and it's fill the box to its maximum capacity, but you've now applied the constraints that allow you to actually have productive conversations.

就在这个范围内，工程、设计、与你一起工作的其他人，他们可以随心所欲地疯狂，突破界限，将盒子填满到最大容量，但你现在已经应用了一些限制，使你能够真正进行富有成效的对话。

Kevin Yien: On the other end of the spectrum though, I think there's a lot of folks who think, "Oh, PMs are just strategy high in the clouds.

Kevin Yien：但另一方面，我认为有很多人认为，“哦，产品经理只是高高在上的战略。

All they do is kick things off." You need to be obsessed about the final deliverable and whether or not value is actually getting to the customer.

他们所做的就是开始事情。”您需要关注最终的交付成果以及是否真正为客户带来价值。

I have a really trite example of this if you want to go down it.

如果你想了解的话，我有一个非常老套的例子。

Kevin Yien: But the key point I want to make is, I think it is tempting when we think about engineering product and design to draw these really clear swim lanes and say, "You do X.

Kevin Yien：但我想说的关键点是，我认为当我们考虑工程产品和设计时，绘制这些非常清晰的泳道并说：“你做了 X，这是很诱人的。

I do Y.

我做Y。

Don't tread on my area." But you need these murky overlaps in order to build something really good.

别踩我的地盘。”但你需要这些模糊的重叠才能构建出真正好的东西。

Kevin Yien: And so even if the engineers are going to build a better product than you and the designers are going to design something better than you, you need to come with a strong opinion and you need to do the legwork to get their trust so they actually care about your opinion in the first place.

Kevin Yien：所以，即使工程师要制造出比你更好的产品，设计师要设计出比你更好的产品，你也需要提出强烈的意见，并且需要做一些跑腿工作来获得他们的信任，这样他们首先就会真正关心你的意见。

Kevin Yien: So time for a mini story.

凯文·伊恩：现在是时候讲一个小故事了。

So Square, we're building a point of sale for restaurants.

所以 Square，我们正在为餐馆建立一个销售点。

If you've ever seen one of these in a restaurant, there's this sort of grid of tiles that they tap to enter your order when you're sitting down for dinner.

如果您在餐厅见过其中的一个，就会发现当您坐下来吃晚饭时，他们会点击这种网格的瓷砖来输入您的订单。

We were developing one, and there's this concept of a menu group.

我们正在开发一个菜单组的概念。

So it's a little box, you tap on it and then it pops the screen in so you go to the next level of the hierarchy.

所以它是一个小盒子，你点击它，然后它会弹出屏幕，这样你就可以进入层次结构的下一个级别。

So example would be you have a wine button, you tap it, and you see your reds, whites, et cetera.

例如，您有一个葡萄酒按钮，点击它，您会看到红葡萄酒、白葡萄酒等。

Kevin Yien: If you think about the people that we were trying to serve, there's the restaurants that were coming from a really old legacy system.

Kevin Yien：如果你想想我们试图服务的人，就会发现有些餐厅来自一个非常古老的遗留系统。

And if you've seen a bartender tap on one of these, I mean it is muscle memory to the max.

如果你见过调酒师敲击其中一个，我的意思是这是最大限度的肌肉记忆。

They're not even looking at the thing and just punching in the order blindfolded, and it's rapid fast.

他们甚至不看那东西，只是蒙着眼睛按顺序打孔，而且速度很快。

Kevin Yien: On the other hand, you have people who are entering the workforce the first time, they've never used a point of sale.

Kevin Yien：另一方面，有些人是第一次进入劳动力市场，他们从未使用过销售点。

And so we have to serve both of these equally.

因此，我们必须平等地为这两者服务。

Well, how do you deal with that level of speed but also the ease of use that anyone can learn it for the first time?

那么，您如何处理这种速度水平以及任何人第一次都能学会的易用性呢？

And so there was this interaction that we really cared about, which was, when you tap on a menu group, what's the animation to pop you into that next level?

因此，我们真正关心的是这种交互，即当您点击菜单组时，将您弹出到下一个级别的动画是什么？

This seems like such a small thing, but it made the difference in how easy it was to adopt for a lot of the restaurants.

这看起来是一件小事，但它却让很多餐厅很容易采用。

Kevin Yien: And so a designer and myself spent literally an entire week just fine-tuning how many milliseconds it would take to pop in and out so that it felt right.

Kevin Yien：所以我和设计师花了整整一周的时间来微调弹出和弹出所需的毫秒数，以便感觉正确。

And we actually brought in servers and bartenders to play with the prototypes we had on iPads and be like, "Here's an order.

我们实际上请了服务员和调酒师来玩我们在 iPad 上的原型，然后说：“这是一个订单。

Pop it in." And we would see where they would sort of flinch or hesitate because the animation was too slow and they thought, "I can't tap it yet," or something related to that.

把它插进去。”我们会看到他们会在哪里畏缩或犹豫，因为动画太慢，他们想，“我还不能点击它”，或者与此相关的东西。

Kevin Yien: And so it's easy, I think, for a PM to say, "That's not my responsibility.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：我认为，对于一名总理来说，很容易说：“这不是我的责任。

I define the requirements.

我定义要求。

Have a menu group that goes to the next level, design or engineer, figure it out." No way.

有一个菜单组可以进入下一个级别，设计或工程师，弄清楚。”决不。

That's fully on you, and you better be involved in those details.

这完全取决于你，你最好参与这些细节。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

There's two directions I want to go.

我想去的方向有两个。

So there's the drawing the perimeter, and then there's this paying attention to the final deliverable and keeping the borrow really high, which I love and I totally agree with both.

因此，我们要画出边界，然后要关注最终的可交付成果并保持较高的借用率，我喜欢这一点，并且完全同意这两点。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of this animation, people hearing this, that our PMs are going to be like, "How do you have time to spend a week on animation for one little product?

Lenny Rachitsky：就这个动画而言，人们听到这个，我们的产品经理会说，“你怎么有时间花一周的时间来制作一个小产品的动画？

I have so much to do.

我有很多事要做。

I get to hit some goals, drive some numbers.

我要实现一些目标，推动一些数字。

I have people waiting for me." Maybe because Square is like this, once you deploy, it's harder to change and it's like a big deal to ship.

我还有人在等我。”也许是因为 Square 就是这样，一旦部署，就很难改变，而且发布起来就像是一件大事。

But I'm curious if you have any advice or things you've learned about how to create space for that sort of thing to create time to spend a week on this animation?

但我很好奇你是否有任何建议或你学到的关于如何为此类事情创造空间以创造一周时间制作这个动画的时间？

Or was it just obvious to everyone, "We need to spend as much time as we can"?

或者“我们需要花尽可能多的时间”这对每个人来说都是显而易见的吗？

Top down, everyone knew.

自上而下，大家都知道。

Kevin Yien: I definitely don't think it was obvious to everyone, and I can definitely say that because we were given a pretty strict deadline that we needed to launch by and I pushed it out three times.

Kevin Yien：我绝对不认为这对每个人来说都是显而易见的，而且我绝对可以这么说，因为我们有一个非常严格的截止日期，我们需要在截止日期前发布，而我推迟了三次。

That's not because of this one animation, but it's because of a series of decisions where we said, "This is what we believe we need to ship, and this matters much more than hitting some artificial external GA date."

这并不是因为这个动画，而是因为我们做出的一系列决定，“这就是我们认为我们需要发布的内容，这比达到一些人为的外部 GA 日期更重要。”

Kevin Yien: There's this other aspect that I think PMs like to feel good about how busy they are and they're like, "I'm involved in so many processes and I have to talk to this person and talk to that person." All that might be true, but I think there needs to be a calibration or at least a spring-cleaning of, "What's everything I'm doing?" and how much do these things actually matter to getting value to a customer.

Kevin Yien：我认为还有一个方面，PM 喜欢对自己的忙碌感到满意，他们会说，“我参与了很多流程，我必须与这个人和那个人交谈。”所有这些可能都是正确的，但我认为需要进行校准或至少进行一次春季大扫除，“我所做的一切是什么？”这些事情对于为客户创造价值到底有多重要？

Because as a company gets bigger, as teams get more complex, it's very easy and natural to spend more time on things that are internally-focused and not externally-focused.

因为随着公司变得越来越大，随着团队变得越来越复杂，花更多时间在关注内部而不是外部的事情上是非常容易和自然的。

I think we just all have to have sensitive antenna to that so that we don't fall prey to, "Well, the way that my job is described is to do these things," but really it's the outcome again of put something in a customer's hands that's also a problem, and it's amazing.

我认为我们都必须对此保持敏感的天线，这样我们就不会陷入“嗯，我的工作描述的方式就是做这些事情”，但实际上，将某些东西放在客户手中的结果也是一个问题，而且令人惊奇。

Lenny Rachitsky: Reminds me of your now colleague Jeff Weinstein's advice he got from one of the Coulsons where they came to him and they're like, "You're world-class at doing the second and third most important things and you're not focusing on the most important thing because it's so hard, and that's something you need to work on."

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我想起你现在的同事杰夫·韦恩斯坦（Jeff Weinstein）从一位科尔森夫妇那里得到的建议，他们来找他，他们说，“你在做第二和第三重要的事情上是世界级的，但你没有专注于最重要的事情，因为它太难了，而这正是你需要努力的事情。”

Kevin Yien: Totally.

凯文·伊恩：完全可以。

I will say so one on that, the CEO at Mutiny, Charlie, she always repeated to me nonstop, "Keep the main thing the main thing" and would just say it ad nauseum, and I'm really glad that she did.

我要说的是，Mutiny 的首席执行官查理，她总是不停地对我重复，“把主要的事情放在主要的事情上”，而且会说得令人作呕，我真的很高兴她这么做了。

The one excuse I don't want to give folks is, as you progress in your career, you have to walk and chew gum at the same time.

我不想给人们的一个借口是，随着你职业生涯的进步，你必须同时走路和嚼口香糖。

You can't say, "Oh, I'm only focused on this thing over here, so other folks handle that." You do have to figure out how to do a little bit more at the same time, but prioritization does play a factor.

你不能说：“哦，我只专注于这里的这件事，所以其他人来处理它。”你确实必须弄清楚如何同时做更多的事情，但优先顺序确实发挥了作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a framework suggested that I really like, the LNO framework.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一个我非常喜欢的框架，即 LNO 框架。

I forget exactly what the LNO stands for, but leverage something something.

我完全忘记了 LNO 代表什么，但可以利用一些东西。

And we'll link to it in the show notes that gives you some advice on how to prioritize your time based on the stuff.

我们将在节目笔记中链接到它，为您提供一些关于如何根据内容确定时间优先顺序的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So I guess in the case of pushing back to create space, this was just you as a product leader recognizing, "This is really important to get right.

因此，我想在推迟创造空间的情况下，这只是你作为产品领导者认识到的，“这对于做好正确的事情非常重要。

I will convince people we need to make more time for that."

我会说服人们我们需要为此腾出更多时间。”

Kevin Yien: I don't want to make it seem like it was me against everyone because that was definitely not the case.

Kevin Yien：我不想让人觉得是我在对抗所有人，因为事实绝对不是这样。

I think the starting engineers and designers on that team really cared about the quality of what they built too.

我认为该团队的初始工程师和设计师也非常关心他们构建的产品的质量。

That's a pretty structural DNA for a team as well.

对于一个团队来说，这也是一个相当好的结构 DNA。

If you don't start with that, and as a comparison, you have a team that really prides themselves on shipping fast and meeting deadlines really prescriptively, you might end up in a different world or your role as a PM might be a little bit more challenging if you want to push on this stuff.

如果你不从这个开始，作为比较，你有一个真正以快速交付和按规定按时完成任务而自豪的团队，那么你最终可能会进入一个不同的世界，或者如果你想推动这些事情，你作为 PM 的角色可能会更具挑战性。

So I do think you have to take into account what is the DNA of the team.

所以我确实认为你必须考虑团队的 DNA。

And then can you exploit that?

然后你可以利用它吗？

Which I was able to do.

我能做到。

Or do you actually have some change management to put into effect if you believe that it's worthwhile?

或者，如果您认为值得的话，您实际上是否有一些变革管理可以实施？

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's go back to the perimeter, drawing the perimeter concept to make that a little more real for people.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们回到周界，绘制周界概念，让人们感觉更真实。

So your advice here is the role of a PM, part of your main job, especially when it comes to engineers and design is to draw the perimeter for the team.

所以你在这里的建议是 PM 的角色，这是你主要工作的一部分，特别是当涉及到工程师和设计时，就是为团队划定界限。

Can you make that a little more real?

你能让它更真实一点吗？

What's an example of that maybe from something you worked on?

您从事的工作中可以举个什么例子吗？

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

Kevin Yien: Totally.

凯文·伊恩：完全可以。

The best word to describe the perimeter is just constraints.

描述边界的最好词就是约束。

At the end of the day, you should be adding as many constraints as reasonable in order to let engineers and designers come up with the most creative solutions for whatever you're trying to do.

最终，您应该添加尽可能多的合理约束，以便让工程师和设计师为您想要做的任何事情提出最具创意的解决方案。

Kevin Yien: And so again, if we just stay focused on this point of sale example, one constraint would be, "Who the hell are we serving?

Kevin Yien：同样，如果我们只专注于这个销售点示例，一个限制将是，“我们到底在为谁服务？

Are we trying to go after sit-down restaurants that are serving five different courses and have a 200 item wine list?

我们是否试图去寻找提供五种不同菜肴并拥有 200 种酒单的堂食餐厅？

Or are we trying to serve the taco truck?" Those will lead to very different spaces.

或者我们是想为炸玉米饼卡车提供服务？”这些将导致非常不同的空间。

And if you leave both on the table, the lack of that constraint makes designing a good solution that much harder, that there instances where you actually can't apply that many constraints.

如果您将两者都保留在桌面上，则缺乏该约束会使设计一个好的解决方案变得更加困难，甚至在某些情况下您实际上无法应用那么多约束。

But I bet that if you push on enough different axes, you eventually scope it down to a point where it feels really good for the team.

但我敢打赌，如果你推动足够多的不同轴，你最终会将其范围缩小到对团队来说真正有利的程度。

It's just about how do you remove decisions, right?

这只是关于如何删除决定，对吧？

Because this I think is maybe a trite phrase, but the best decision is no decision.

因为我认为这可能是一句老生常谈的话，但最好的决定就是不做决定。

If you don't even have to think about the decision, the team is that much more effective.

如果你甚至不需要考虑这个决定，团队就会更加高效。

Lenny Rachitsky: So yo give people a few maybe even pointers of, "I need to create more constraints maybe for my team to help them go crazy, but within this box that we all agree on," so you mentioned make sure the user's clear of who you're designing for.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你给人们一些甚至可能的指示，“我需要为我的团队创造更多的约束来帮助他们变得疯狂，但在这个我们都同意的框架内，”所以你提到确保用户清楚你正在为谁设计。

Is there anything else, just thinking about maybe the PRD someone's trying to write to help create this constraint?

还有其他什么吗，只是想一下也许有人试图编写 PRD 来帮助创建这个约束？

What other maybe bullet points, sections would you imagine or do you find useful to add?

您还可以想象或认为添加哪些其他要点、部分是有用的？

Kevin Yien: So beyond customer segment/like-what-their-specific-role is, I think another one would be, we can loosely call it, jobs to be done, even though I know that's becoming an increasingly loaded term.

Kevin Yien：因此，除了客户细分/比如他们的特定角色之外，我认为另一个角色是，我们可以宽松地称之为，待完成的工作，尽管我知道这正在成为一个越来越重要的术语。

Kevin Yien: But what's the thing they're trying to do and how many different pathways are you willing to entertain around it?

Kevin Yien：但是他们想要做的事情是什么？你愿意围绕它采取多少种不同的途径？

That's another one that I would think about.

这是我会考虑的另一个问题。

Depending on what you're building, there's availability.

根据您正在构建的内容，可用性。

So do you care about desktop web, mobile web, native mobile, et cetera?

那么您关心桌面网络、移动网络、原生移动设备等等吗？

And maybe another one to think through just as an example would be, this is probably getting closer to what a lot of people think about in terms of principles, but what are the things that you want to be known for when you ship a product?

也许另一个值得思考的例子是，这可能越来越接近很多人在原则方面的想法，但是当你发布产品时，你希望让人们知道什么？

One example there might be speed.

一个例子可能是速度。

And so if you say speed is more important than consistency of data, that's a huge tradeoff and constraint that you can give the team." Oh my god, if an engineer hears I don't need real time consistency of data, I can do so much cool stuff and easily accomplish that speed thing." And so that's just a very technical example maybe.

因此，如果你说速度比数据一致性更重要，那么你可以给团队带来巨大的权衡和约束。“天哪，如果工程师听说我不需要数据的实时一致性，我可以做很多很酷的事情，并轻松完成速度的事情。”所以这可能只是一个非常技术性的例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, I'm glad I followed up on that.

好吧，我很高兴我跟进了这一点。

There's a couple more things you mentioned that I want to come back to real quick.

您还提到了另外几件事，我想尽快回顾一下。

The first is this tuning fork idea.

第一个是音叉的想法。

I completely agree, this point you made, that the best way to get feedback from your team is to take a first pass at it, and here's a rough quick draft.

我完全同意您提出的这一点，即从团队获得反馈的最佳方法是进行第一次审查，这是一个粗略的快速草案。

I find with design, especially if you design something ugly, designers are often like, "Let me make that better.

我发现在设计方面，尤其是当你设计出一些丑陋的东西时，设计师通常会说，“让我把它做得更好。

We can't stand this thing." Is there anything else you want to add there?

我们无法忍受这件事。”您还有什么要补充的吗？

Just this idea of tuning fork as a feedback strategy.

这就是音叉作为反馈策略的想法。

Kevin Yien: Okay, there's two areas we can go deeper on here.

Kevin Yien：好的，我们可以在两个领域进行更深入的研究。

One is in how you get the feedback.

一是如何获得反馈。

So this is definitely a Square-ism, I think it was probably adopted from Amazon, which is around the silent read of documents.

所以这绝对是一种方形主义，我认为它可能是从亚马逊那里借鉴来的，它围绕着文档的静默阅读。

When you are all so busy and someone's like, "I wrote a doc," you send it into the Slack ecosystem and everyone goes, "Please give feedback." You have so much going on...

当你们都很忙并且有人说“我写了一份文档”时，您将其发送到 Slack 生态系统中，每个人都会说“请提供反馈”。你有这么多事情发生...

You'll be lucky to maybe get a response.

你很幸运也许能得到回应。

Maybe there's one or two people that chime in.

也许有一两个人插话。

Kevin Yien: And so even though we hate meetings and we love asynchronous, there is a lot of value to saying, "I need 20 minutes of focused time to interrogate something that I've done.

Kevin Yien：因此，尽管我们讨厌会议并且喜欢异步会议，但说“我需要 20 分钟的专注时间来审视我所做的事情”还是很有价值的。

We're not going to talk.

我们不会说话。

I'm literally going to force us into a room or Zoom.

我真的会强迫我们进入一个房间或 Zoom。

You're going to read this doc, I'm going to watch you comment on it in real time.

您将阅读此文档，我将实时观看您对其的评论。

I'm going to respond to your comments in real time.

我会实时回复您的评论。

And at the end of this thing I'm going to have enough really good input that I can do a huge rub on this thing and get to the next phase."

在这件事结束时，我将获得足够多的非常好的意见，我可以对这件事进行巨大的改进并进入下一阶段。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

So it's basically instead of, "Hey, I'm sending you this doc to go review, give me feedback," it's, "I'm going to schedule a meeting, and the meeting is for you to spend time reviewing this doc and giving me feedback and then maybe we could talk about it."

所以基本上不是，“嘿，我要给你发这个文档去审核，给我反馈”，而是“我要安排一个会议，这次会议是为了让你花时间审核这个文档并给我反馈，然后也许我们可以讨论一下。”

Kevin Yien: Yep.

凯文·伊恩：是的。

And I think a lot of people are going to hate hearing that because like, "Oh my god, I have so many meetings already.

我认为很多人会讨厌听到这个，因为就像，“天哪，我已经有这么多会议了。

Why do I want another meeting that isn't even a meeting?" But that's the best kind then, because it's actual work getting done, right?

为什么我想要另一次甚至不是会议的会议？”但这是最好的一种，因为这是真正完成的工作，对吗？

And maybe you carve out two minutes at the end for one really immediate discussion topic or something.

也许你会在最后抽出两分钟时间来讨论一个非常直接的话题或其他话题。

But I don't think we give enough space in any type of meeting for people to actually think.

但我认为我们在任何类型的会议中都没有给人们足够的空间来真正思考。

And when you are just staring at a doc with your camera off and the only expectation is to engage with that thing, thoughts are a little bit better and crisper.

当你只是关闭相机盯着医生并且唯一的期望就是与那个东西互动时，想法会变得更好、更清晰。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think with this idea, if someone says, "I want a meeting where you just sit and review this doc," you could always say, "Let me just review it asynchronously.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为有了这个想法，如果有人说，“我想要一个会议，让你坐下来审查这份文档，”你总是可以说，“让我异步审查它。

I'll give you feedback, I promise.

我保证会给你反馈。

Give me 24 hours." Right?

给我24小时。”正确的？

It's not like they have to come to this meeting.

他们并不是非得来参加这个会议。

Kevin Yien: Although I would urge you to make them come to the meeting.

Kevin Yien：尽管我会敦促你让他们来参加会议。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, say more there, because you find that that's a lot more effective.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，多说一些，因为你发现这样更有效。

Kevin Yien: I think there's two sneaky things hiding behind that.

Kevin Yien：我认为这背后隐藏着两件事。

One is the, "Yeah, I'll get to this in the next 24 hours." Maybe they don't.

其中之一是，“是的，我会在接下来的 24 小时内处理这个问题。”也许他们不知道。

Maybe you've really trust that person and they're the exception.

也许你真的信任那个人，而他们是例外。

But beyond that, there is something else to the real time interaction that can happen when you're commenting and responding on a dock at the same time.

但除此之外，当您同时在扩展坞上发表评论和回复时，还可能发生实时交互的其他情况。

I think this is the part that often gets lost, which is the latency between a comments or question and a quick follow-up from the author just pushes that cycle speed really long in a way that doesn't need to be.

我认为这是经常被迷失的部分，即评论或问题与作者的快速跟进之间的延迟，只会以一种不需要的方式将周期速度推得很长。

And so when people are trying to find how do you move faster, this actually is one of those very good examples of moving slower to move faster.

因此，当人们试图找到如何移动得更快时，这实际上是缓慢移动以加快移动速度的很好的例子之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me Claire Vo, I think it was her phrase of moving one clock speed faster, and just like that's the way you speed up a company is try to move one clock speed faster, which in this case is just reduce the time between feedback and iteration.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了 Claire Vo，我认为这是她所说的“加快一个时钟速度”的说法，就像你加快公司速度的方式就是尝试加快一个时钟速度一样，在这种情况下，这只是减少反馈和迭代之间的时间。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to shift to talking about a few very tactical things that you've found really helpful in your PM career and something you recommend to other product teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想谈谈一些非常战术性的事情，您发现这些事情对您的 PM 职业生涯非常有帮助，以及您向其他产品团队推荐的一些事情。

The first is something you call a decision log.

第一个是你所说的决策日志。

You think every PM should keep a decision log.

您认为每个 PM 都应该保留决策日志。

Talk about what that is and why that's powerful.

谈论它是什么以及为什么它如此强大。

Kevin Yien: I will say there's two different decision logs we could talk about.

Kevin Yien：我想说我们可以讨论两种不同的决策日志。

We'll focus on the former though.

不过，我们将重点关注前者。

The latter is just as you're making decisions within your job, you should document those within a PRD.

后者就像您在工作中做出决策一样，您应该在 PRD 中记录这些决策。

Make sure everyone knows.

确保每个人都知道。

It's just a silly, very small thing, but I think every PM should do it.

这只是一件愚蠢的、非常小的事情，但我认为每个 PM 都应该这样做。

Kevin Yien: The other decision log though that I think is quite critical is if we zoom out for a second, every person has something that they can do to slightly increment in their craft.

Kevin Yien：我认为非常重要的另一个决策日志是，如果我们缩小一秒钟，每个人都可以做一些事情来稍微提高他们的技能。

Sprinters have certain exercises that they do.

短跑运动员会进行某些练习。

There's something beautiful about pianists and piano scales where it doesn't matter if you are just learning the piano or you are a 30-year veteran, you're still doing your scales, and it's because it lays the foundation for everything else that you need to do.

钢琴家和钢琴音阶有一些美妙之处，无论你是刚学钢琴还是已经有 30 年的经验，你仍然会做音阶，因为它为你需要做的其他一切奠定了基础。

Kevin Yien: And so we all talk about product sense.

Kevin Yien：所以我们都在谈论产品感。

It's this super mystical thing that no one knows how to get better at.

这是一件超级神秘的事情，没有人知道如何做得更好。

To me, it's just a fancy way of saying you can make good decisions with insufficient data, and the core of that is decisions.

对我来说，这只是一种奇特的说法，表明你可以在数据不足的情况下做出正确的决策，而其核心是决策。

And so PMs need as many reps as possible in making decisions, documenting the rationale behind those decisions, and then crucially seeing the outcome of them.

因此，产品经理需要尽可能多的代表来制定决策，记录这些决策背后的理由，然后至关重要地查看决策的结果。

And so the natural followup would be, "Well, I only have to make X decisions in my job.

因此，自然的后续反应是：“好吧，我只需要在工作中做出 X 决定。

How the hell do I make more of them?" Look around you.

我到底怎样才能制造更多呢？”看看你的周围。

There's other teams that are making decisions.

还有其他团队正在做出决定。

What would you do if you were in that position with the information you have?

如果你处于那个位置，根据你所掌握的信息，你会怎么做？

Great, write it down.

太好了，写下来。

Say why.

说说为什么。

Kevin Yien: There's other companies that are doing crazy things.

Kevin Yien：还有其他公司也在做疯狂的事情。

What are they doing?

他们在做什么？

What would you do if you were responsible for the roadmap?

如果你负责路线图，你会做什么？

Write it down.

把它写下来。

A year later, see what they've shipped.

一年后，看看他们运送了什么。

You can just do this for anyone.

你可以为任何人做这件事。

It's free, and no one takes the time to do it, but that's how I think you get better at actually making decisions, is just doing more of them.

它是免费的，没有人花时间来做这件事，但我认为这就是你在实际做出决策方面做得更好的方法，只是做更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hearing you describe this, it feels like, "Obviously yes, why aren't we doing this?

Lenny Rachitsky：听到你描述这一点，感觉就像是，“显然是的，我们为什么不这样做呢？

How else can we get better if we're not reflecting back on the decisions we've made?

如果我们不反思我们所做的决定，我们还能如何变得更好呢？

And realizing, "Hey, I made a bunch of bad decisions, but I'm always so confident in my decision still, maybe shouldn't be.

并意识到，“嘿，我做了很多错误的决定，但我仍然对自己的决定充满信心，也许不应该如此。

So I guess first of all, do you actually do this?

所以我想首先，你真的这样做了吗？

How often do you do this?

您多久这样做一次？

And is there an example of you learning something from your own decision log?

有没有一个例子可以让你从自己的决策日志中学到一些东西？

Kevin Yien: Many.

凯文·伊恩：很多。

And many of them because it was a wrong decision.

其中许多人因为这是一个错误的决定。

But yes, I do keep a decision log.

但是，是的，我确实保留了决策日志。

I have a separate sort of practice where it's just a daily log, which is everyone wants the perfect note-taking system.

我有一种单独的练习，它只是每日日志，这是每个人都想要的完美笔记系统。

To me, the best note-taking system is inspired by...

对我来说，最好的笔记系统的灵感来自......

What is it called?

它叫什么？

big ass text file, BATF.

大屁股文本文件，BATF。

There's a funny blog post from 2001 on it, but it's just, you write everything that happens to you in a day in a bolded list and it's all in one big note.

2001 年有一篇有趣的博客文章，但它只是，你把一天中发生的所有事情都写在一个粗体列表中，然后全部写在一张大纸条中。

That way you can command F it, do whatever you want.

这样你就可以指挥F它，做任何你想做的事情。

The way that I keep track of it is I do a little hashtag decision and then write things down just as I think about them.

我跟踪它的方式是我做一些标签决定，然后就像我想到的那样写下来。

And then I'll have a reminder to comb back through on some cadence.

然后我会收到一个提醒，让我按一定的节奏进行梳理。

Kevin Yien: And so I'll first use a positive example, which is a funny one.

Kevin Yien：所以我首先举一个正面的例子，这是一个有趣的例子。

So if you rewind to, I don't even know what year, but Shopify had just launched Shop app, their consumer application for what started as tracking your order when you bought something from a Shopify customer and then it's evolved into a full-blown Amazon competitor, where you can actually find merchants and buy things through it.

所以，如果你回溯到哪一年，我什至不知道 Shopify 刚刚推出了 Shop 应用程序，这是他们的消费者应用程序，最初是在你从 Shopify 客户那里购买商品时跟踪你的订单，然后它发展成为一个成熟的亚马逊竞争对手，你实际上可以在其中找到商家并通过它购买东西。

Kevin Yien: When they first launched it though, I was like, "Oh my God, this is so brilliant.

Kevin Yien：当他们第一次推出它时，我当时想，“天哪，这太棒了。

They have completely hijacked this specific loop for consumer buying behavior via this very unassuming thing, which is package tracking." And so that morning I was like, "Whatever, I'm going to quickly draw a diagram of this flywheel that I think Amazon owns today.

他们通过这个非常不起眼的东西，即包裹跟踪，完全劫持了消费者购买行为的特定循环。”所以那天早上我想，“无论如何，我要快速画出我认为亚马逊今天拥有的这个飞轮的图表。

I'm going to show how Shopify is slowly planting their little seed to take over this and how Shop app fits into it." I tweeted out.

我将展示 Shopify 如何慢慢播下他们的小种子来接管这个市场，以及 Shop 应用程序如何融入其中。”我发了推文。

And then I don't know, that day there must have been 60 Shopify employees that followed me.

然后我不知道，那天一定有 60 名 Shopify 员工关注了我。

I was like, "What the hell is this guy talking about?"

我当时想，“这家伙到底在说什么？”

Kevin Yien: And so funny enough, fast-forward, I've talked to some of the folks that worked on it and they're like, "Yeah, nailed it.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：非常有趣，快进，我和一些参与此项目的人交谈过，他们说，“是的，成功了。

Here's what we were thinking.

这就是我们的想法。

Here's why." It's no longer secret sauce.

这就是原因。”它不再是秘密武器。

But that was a really interesting example of both doing a decision log, putting my rationale down on paper.

但这是一个非常有趣的例子，双方都做了决策日志，将我的理由写在纸上。

In this case, broadcasting it out, but then having that be a mechanism for it making its way back to me to actually better understand why did they make the decision versus what I thought, because the reasons were a little bit different, but the outcome was the same.

在这种情况下，将其广播出去，然后让它成为一种机制，让它回到我身边，更好地理解他们为什么做出这个决定，而不是我的想法，因为原因有点不同，但结果是一样的。

So that's one interesting example.

这是一个有趣的例子。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's an amazing story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个了不起的故事。

You doing this explains why you've been so successful.

你这样做就解释了为什么你如此成功。

I could see how this all connects now.

我现在可以明白这一切是如何联系起来的了。

I think for a lot of people, they would want to build this habit.

我想对于很多人来说，他们都想养成这个习惯。

Clearly there's a lot of value here, but they just don't because they got a lot of other things going on or it's just like this new thing they have to start doing.

显然这里有很多价值，但他们只是没有这样做，因为他们还有很多其他事情正在进行，或者就像他们必须开始做的新事情一样。

Is there anything that helped you adopt this practice of this daily log/decision log that you think might be helpful to folks to motivate them to give this a shot?

有没有什么可以帮助您采用这种每日日志/决策日志的做法，您认为这可能有助于人们激励他们尝试一下？

Kevin Yien: This is probably just general advice on building any habit, which is start small and just force yourself to do it.

Kevin Yien：这可能只是关于养成任何习惯的一般建议，即从小事做起，强迫自己去做。

And there's that old saying around, how do you start running as a hobby?

有句老话说，你如何开始把跑步作为一种爱好？

You don't do it by saying, "I'm going to run a mile every day." You do it by putting your sneakers at the foot of your bed unless you take your shoes off inside, then you put it at the front door, you have your shorts ready to go and you're like, "I commit to putting on my shorts.

你不会说：“我要每天跑一英里。”你可以把运动鞋放在床脚，除非你在里面脱掉鞋子，然后把它放在前门，你准备好短裤，然后你会说，“我承诺穿上短裤。

And if I decide after getting dressed to go run, that I still don't want to go run.

如果我穿好衣服后决定去跑步，我仍然不想去跑步。

Okay, fine." But you build up to that thing.

好吧，好吧。”但你会努力做到这一点。

Kevin Yien: I think decision logs are the lightest weight thing possible.

Kevin Yien：我认为决策日志是最轻量级的东西。

And so you can start super easy by saying, "You know what?

所以你可以非常简单地开始说：“你知道吗？

Every Sunday morning I'm going to scroll through Twitter, I'm going to check out Hacker News, whatever it is, I'm going to see something interesting and I'm going to make a bet.

每个周日早上我都会浏览 Twitter，查看黑客新闻，无论是什么，我都会看到一些有趣的东西，然后我就会下注。

I'm going to place my decision on this thing." Write it down, and then set a calendar invite in X weeks, X months to see what plays out.

我将在这件事上做出决定。”把它写下来，然后在 X 周、X 个月内设置一个日历邀请，看看会发生什么。

And that's all it is, right?

这就是全部，对吧？

10 minutes once a week, super easy.

每周一次 10 分钟，超级简单。

And then over time you can crank it up.

然后随着时间的推移，你可以把它调高。

And then eventually you're just constantly writing these decisions down and then it's like feeding its way back into you.

最终你只是不断地写下这些决定，然后它就像反馈到你身上一样。

It becomes second nature.

它成为第二天性。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you're touching on something that there's been a little bit of talk on this podcast and newsletter post about this idea of to get better product sense and product taste and also just decision making this case, one of the best strategies is to simulate other people's decisions and simulate what they're thinking through and predict what they're going to do, which is what you're describing here.

Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到的内容是，在这个播客和时事通讯帖子中，有一些关于获得更好的产品意识和产品品味以及决策制定的想法的想法，在这种情况下，最好的策略之一是模拟其他人的决策并模拟他们正在思考的内容并预测他们将要做什么，这就是您在这里所描述的。

Kevin Yien: Totally.

凯文·伊恩：完全可以。

I do want to apply a pretty severe caveat here though, which is, a decision log is not a replacement for building products.

不过，我确实想在这里提出一个非常严格的警告，即决策日志并不能替代建筑产品。

It's a additional complimentary thing that you can be doing on your own.

这是您可以自己做的额外免费的事情。

But if you think that you can just sit back in your chair, look out at the market, make a bunch of calls and be like, "Look at how smart I'm getting without actually being hands-on with building a product," you're not actually going to get any better.

但如果你认为你可以坐在椅子上，看看市场，打一堆电话，然后说，“看看我变得多么聪明，而无需真正亲自动手构建产品”，那么你实际上不会变得更好。

So I just want to interject that

所以我只想插一句

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing caveat, very important.

Lenny Rachitsky：令人惊奇的警告，非常重要。

Don't just sit and read Hacker News and think you're going to be become an amazing founder or product leader.

不要只是坐下来阅读黑客新闻并认为您将成为一位出色的创始人或产品领导者。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp, and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Lenny Rachitsky: Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

Lenny Rachitsky：实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I left most was our experimentation platform, where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我留下最深刻的东西之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shape weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying, prolonged and analytics cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了这一切，并提供了更多功能，可以帮助您缩短实验时间，并通过可访问的 UI 深入了解性能和开箱即用的报告，帮助您避免恼人的、延长的分析周期。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at get eppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 get eppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's get eppo.com/lenny.

请访问 eppo.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: If someone wants to try this idea of a daily log, what is it exactly?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果有人想尝试每日日志的想法，它到底是什么？

Say decision log or daily log, is it just things that happen today and then hashtag, "Here's a decision I made, or here's a decision I think Shopify will make in the future"?

比如说决策日志或每日日志，是否只是今天发生的事情，然后使用主题标签“这是我做出的决定，还是我认为 Shopify 将来会做出的决定”？

Is that the format?

是这样的格式吗？

Kevin Yien: Yeah, it depends on how far you want to go down productivity and notetaking as to rabbit holes, but let's start basic.

Kevin Yien：是的，这取决于你想在多大程度上降低生产力和兔子洞的笔记，但让我们从基础开始。

This is not what I do, but I think it's the easiest place to start.

这不是我所做的，但我认为这是最简单的起点。

Spin up a Google doc or a Notion page, just call it daily log and then bullet point out the date of today.

启动一个 Google 文档或一个 Notion 页面，只需将其称为每日日志，然后用项目符号指出今天的日期。

And then as you're going through your day, you have a meeting, just type in the meeting name.

然后，当您度过这一天时，您将召开会议，只需输入会议名称即可。

If there's a takeaway, put it under there.

如果有外卖，就放在下面。

If there's a decision you can make, do hashtag decision.

如果您可以做出决定，请进行主题标签决定。

And in this case, say, "Shopify launch Shop app.

在本例中，请说“Shopify 启动 Shop 应用。

I think this is their way to take over the fulfillment to buying behavior loop.

我认为这是他们接管购买行为循环的方式。

The reason for that is X, Y, Z." Follow up on this in six months and then set your calendar invite.

原因是 X、Y、Z。”在六个月内跟进此情况，然后设置您的日历邀请。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So as motivation for listeners to try this sort of thing, just look at the success Kevin has had as in his career and how insightful he has been so far and will continue to be.

因此，作为听众尝试此类事情的动力，只要看看凯文在其职业生涯中所取得的成功以及他迄今为止以及将继续具有的洞察力即可。

And this is how these happen.

这些就是这样发生的。

This is how your mind learns to see things in a really unique, interesting way.

这就是你的大脑学会以一种真正独特、有趣的方式看待事物的方式。

So I know you're modest and aren't going to take any credit, but I'm just saying this is how you get better, is trying stuff like this.

所以我知道你很谦虚，不会接受任何功劳，但我只是说这就是你变得更好的方法，就是尝试这样的事情。

Kevin Yien: Footnote, correlation versus causation.

Kevin Yien：脚注，相关性与因果性。

It's all put out there.

都放在那里了

Lenny Rachitsky: Could be all genes.

Lenny Rachitsky：可能都是基因。

Could be completely unrelated to anything you've done entire life, I suspect.

我怀疑这可能与你一生所做的任何事情完全无关。

Kevin Yien: Could just be me being very lucky, I'll put that out there.

Kevin Yien：可能只是我很幸运，我会把它放在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Could also be luck.

Lenny Rachitsky：也可能是运气。

Okay, so something I wanted to touch on with this decision log idea, and it's a segue to talking about hiring, is I think interviewing is also really good opportunity to try some like this.

好的，所以我想谈谈这个决策日志的想法，这是谈论招聘的一个延续，我认为面试也是尝试这样的事情的好机会。

I feel like people interview lots of people.

我觉得人们采访了很多人。

They think they know what they're looking for.

他们认为他们知道自己在寻找什么。

They think they've made all these decisions.

他们认为他们已经做出了所有这些决定。

They think they have these amazing interview questions that are going to help them see really good signal, but you never actually go back and see, "Was I right?

他们认为他们有这些令人惊奇的面试问题，这些问题将帮助他们看到真正好的信号，但你永远不会真正回头看看，“我是对的吗？

Should we have hired that person?

我们应该雇用那个人吗？

Did this person work out?

这个人练出来了吗？

Was that question asked them at all inform?

这个问题问过他们吗？

Was it at all a leading indicator of anything?" And I feel like this is a really good method for improving your interviewing abilities, is like, "Here's the questions asked.

它到底是某种领先指标吗？”我觉得这是提高面试能力的一个非常好的方法，就像，“这是提出的问题。

Here's what I decided.

这就是我的决定。

Here's what I think," and then a year later look back, "Was that actually right?"

这就是我的想法，”一年后回顾起来，“这真的是对的吗？”

Kevin Yien: Yeah, totally.

凯文·伊恩：是的，完全可以。

I think some of the best companies actually do have a practice around this where they have a 6, 12, 18 month check-in on new hires and they then compare their performance against level hired at and then review against the scorecards.

我认为一些最好的公司实际上确实有这方面的做法，他们对新员工进行 6、12、18 个月的检查，然后将他们的表现与聘用的级别进行比较，然后根据记分卡进行审查。

It's a pretty laborious process.

这是一个相当费力的过程。

So startups aren't probably going to do it in the same amount of rigor, but it shows you so much about the holes in your interviewing process.

因此，初创公司可能不会以同样严格的方式来做这件事，但它向你展示了面试过程中的很多漏洞。

So I definitely plus one of that one.

所以我肯定会加上其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Oh my god, that puts all this pressure on your score, which is great.

天啊，这给你的分数带来了所有的压力，这太棒了。

So that's actually a segue talking about hiring.

所以这实际上是一个关于招聘的话题。

There's a couple more tactics that I've seen you be really good at.

我发现你还非常擅长一些其他的策略。

So one is just hiring in general.

所以一般来说只是招聘。

You have a lot of interesting approaches to hiring, including this idea of a unsell email where you try to convince someone not to join your company.

您有很多有趣的招聘方法，包括使用推销电子邮件来试图说服某人不要加入您的公司。

Talk about that and why you think that's effective and then anything else along the lines of hiring you've learned.

谈谈这一点以及为什么您认为这是有效的，然后谈谈您学到的有关招聘的其他内容。

Kevin Yien: I'll say the idea of the unsell email came from a place of failure, which is at Square I had shifted into a position where I had to hire a lot of people really quickly.

Kevin Yien：我想说的是，取消销售电子邮件的想法来自于一个失败的地方，那就是在 Square，我已经转变到了一个必须很快雇用很多人的位置。

And through that, as a fairly new hiring manager, you're like, "All right, great.

通过这一过程，作为一名相当新的招聘经理，你会说，“好吧，太棒了。

I've been told the goal is to hire fast." Okay, you give me a metric, you're going to go after it.

我被告知目标是快速招聘。”好吧，你给我一个指标，你就去追求它。

So you do your best to get as many people in the door as possible.

所以你要尽最大努力让尽可能多的人进来。

When you're talking to your recruiting partner, they're incentivized to increase pass through rates, offer to close rates, all these other things, and so they're like, "Yeah, this person's really good." And you listen.

当你与你的招聘合作伙伴交谈时，他们会受到激励，提高通过率，提供接近率，所有这些其他事情，所以他们会说，“是的，这个人真的很棒。”你听着。

"Yeah, they are pretty good, aren't they?" Even though there's a sneaking suspicion that maybe they're not the right fit, but you move forward anyways.

“是啊，他们都很好，不是吗？”尽管有人偷偷怀疑他们可能不合适，但无论如何你都会继续前进。

Kevin Yien: So fast-forward, there's a few folks I bring on, and within six months they come to me and they're like, "This is not at all what I thought I was going to do.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：很快，我带了一些人来，六个月内他们来找我，他们说，“这根本不是我想要做的。

This is not the environment I thought I was going to walk into.

这不是我以为我会走进的环境。

You didn't warn me about this, that and the other.

你没有警告过我这个、那个和那个。

I feel terrible.

我感觉很糟糕。

How do I prevent this?" And the reason it's bad is not just because they feel surprised, but because then, either one, they decide to leave, two, they're not performing because it's not the right role or environment for them, or three, maybe the company is still good, but that role isn't.

我该如何防止这种情况发生？”糟糕的原因不仅仅是因为他们感到惊讶，而是因为，要么一，他们决定离开，二，他们没有表现，因为这对他们来说不是合适的角色或环境，或者三，也许公司仍然很好，但那个角色不是。

And so they immediately try to do internal mobility or something to another team, which then leaves you with the same hole.

因此，他们立即尝试对另一个团队进行内部流动或其他操作，这会让你陷入同样的​​困境。

So all of those bad outcomes.

所以所有这些不好的结果。

"How do I prevent this?" Well, I just got to front load all the gnarly stuff they're going to find out in their first six months.

“我该如何防止这种情况发生？”好吧，我只需提前加载他们将在前六个月发现的所有棘手的东西。

Kevin Yien: And so the practice I started developing is you go through the whole interview process.

Kevin Yien：所以我开始开发的做法是经历整个面试过程。

During that period, you're collecting all these little concerns, fears, anxieties that they're not explicitly saying, but they're definitely hinting at.

在那段时间里，你会收集所有这些他们没有明确表达但肯定暗示过的小担忧、恐惧和焦虑。

You got to be pretty honest with yourself about which ones are real.

你必须对自己非常诚实，知道哪些是真实的。

But then when you get to offer stage, I send an email with no more than eight bullet points and I say all the terrible things that are probably going to reinforce their fears.

但当你进入报价阶段时，我会发送一封电子邮件，其中不超过八个要点，我会说所有可能会加剧他们恐惧的可怕事情。

I'm pretty candid about, "This is what it's like here." Maybe one example would be, "Hey, I'm a parent and I'm worried about work-life balance." Maybe they don't say that explicitly in the interview process, but you get a feeling for it.

我很坦白地说：“这就是这里的情况。”也许一个例子是，“嘿，我是一名家长，我担心工作与生活的平衡。”也许他们在面试过程中没有明确地说出这一点，但你可以感觉到。

And I get that as a parent too.

作为父母我也明白这一点。

Kevin Yien: So if I'm at a startup, I'll be really clear and I'll say, "You know what?

Kevin Yien：所以如果我在一家初创公司，我会非常明确地说，“你知道吗？

We are a series A startup.

我们是一家 A 轮初创公司。

We are pushing really hard at product-market fit.

我们正在努力推动产品与市场的契合。

The expectation here is going to be that you're online at 10:00, that you can occasionally hop on a meeting on a Saturday or Sunday." And if you can tell them that upfront and they can read that whole email and still be equally excited to join, you find yourself an A+ hire.

这里的期望是您在 10:00 在线，您偶尔可以参加周六或周日的会议。”如果您可以提前告诉他们这一点，并且他们可以阅读整封电子邮件并且仍然同样兴奋地加入，那么您就会发现自己是一名 A+ 员工。

But if they read that and they're like," I don't know anymore," it's way better to say, "Great, this is not a good fit.

但如果他们读到后觉得“我不知道了”，最好说“太好了，这不太合适。”

Let's go our separate ways" than have them leave after six months.

让我们分道扬镳”，而不是让他们在六个月后离开。

Kevin Yien: When I first instituted this, I lost 30% of candidates at offer stage.

Kevin Yien：当我第一次实行这个时，我在录用阶段失去了 30% 的候选人。

Kevin Yien: Which drove my recruiting partners insane because they look terrible.

Kevin Yien：这让我的招聘伙伴抓狂，因为他们看起来很糟糕。

Their manager is like, "What the hell are you doing?

他们的经理就像是，“你到底在做什么？

You're losing everyone at the very end." And so they ask, "Can you either not send this thing?" Or, "Can you send it at the very beginning?" And my answer is no, because I don't know what they're afraid of yet.

到最后你就会失去所有人。”于是他们问：“你能不能不寄这个东西？”或者，“你能从一开始就发送吗？”我的答案是否定的，因为我还不知道他们害怕什么。

I have to go through the whole process to actually understand the thing that's going to potentially make them say no, and that's really crucial I think.

我必须经历整个过程才能真正理解可能让他们拒绝的事情，我认为这非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: But once you hear it again, this is such an obviously good idea, clearly not an easy thing to do.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是一旦你再次听到它，这显然是一个好主意，但显然不是一件容易做的事情。

In this case where recruiters were upset, is it just get buy-in from folks above, like, "Okay, this sucks for them, but at a macro level, this is good for the business" and they're like, "All right, let's keep doing it"?

在这种情况下，招聘人员感到不安，是否只是得到上面的人的支持，比如，“好吧，这对他们来说很糟糕，但从宏观层面来看，这对业务有好处”，然后他们会说，“好吧，让我们继续这样做”？

Kevin Yien: At Square, at least, when I first started doing it, luckily I had a very good relationship with them.

Kevin Yien：在 Square，至少在我刚开始做的时候，幸运的是我和他们的关系非常好。

So that's a good starting point.

所以这是一个很好的起点。

This is maybe going to come across a little bit flippant, but they can't stop you from sending an email technically.

这可能会显得有点轻率，但从技术上来说他们无法阻止您发送电子邮件。

So I'm just going to send the email.

所以我要发送电子邮件。

And if someone really wants to come and say, "This is bad for business," whatever it is, I have very strong reasons for why that's not the case.

如果有人真的想说“这对商业不利”，无论是什么，我都有充分的理由证明情况并非如此。

And now I've done it so many times, at least, that I can point to very clear proof points on why this is the right path.

现在我已经这样做了很多次，至少我可以指出非常明确的证据来证明为什么这是正确的道路。

Lenny Rachitsky: In theory, the incentives would be aligned where the recruiter success matters.

Lenny Rachitsky：理论上，激励措施将与招聘人员的成功至关重要的地方相一致。

It's based on, did they actually have a good time?

这是基于，他们真的玩得很开心吗？

Did they stay?

他们留下来了吗？

Did they have good impact?

他们产生了良好的影响吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: But since they're not, obviously incentives aren't right.

Lenny Rachitsky：但既然他们不是，显然激励措施是不对的。

Kevin Yien: I think some companies have shifted on that, where recruiters and salespeople are compensated sometimes in similar ways in terms of quota and whatnot.

Kevin Yien：我认为一些公司已经改变了这一点，招聘人员和销售人员有时会在配额等方面以类似的方式获得报酬。

And so they'll hold the recruiter accountable to six, 12 post offer tenure before they say, "Oh yeah, you successfully landed this role." So you can tweak the incentive structure a little bit, but not everyone does that.

因此，他们会让招聘人员对 6 到 12 个职位聘用任期负责，然后他们才会说：“哦，是的，你成功获得了这个职位。”所以你可以稍微调整一下激励结构，但并不是每个人都会这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So the advice here is to end up with better people that end up being successful and happy.

所以这里的建议是，最终要和更好的人在一起，最终获得成功和快乐。

Keep track of the things that will probably be painful for them at the company, and then craft an email that shares upfront, "Here's what made be a problem if you join, and I just want to be very upfront about it." I think you actually shared a template of one of these emails in one of your blog posts.

跟踪公司中可能会给他们带来痛苦的事情，然后制作一封电子邮件，预先分享，“如果你加入，这就是一个问题，我只是想非常坦率地说明这一点。”我认为您实际上在一篇博客文章中分享了其中一封电子邮件的模板。

Kevin Yien: Yep, that's right.

凯文·伊恩：是的，没错。

I have a fairly real one in .

我有一个相当真实的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else hiring-wise?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有其他招聘方面的事情吗？

I know there's probably infinite things that you've done, but is there anything else you think might be worth sharing of things you've learned to be more successful at hiring awesome people?

我知道你可能做过无数的事情，但是你认为还有什么值得分享你所学到的东西，以便更成功地雇用优秀的人才吗？

Kevin Yien: One final note I'll make on unsell email is it's not as if you just send the email and then they either say yes or no. Most of the time they will say, "Thank you.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：关于推销电子邮件，我要说的最后一点是，这并不是说你只是发送电子邮件，然后他们要么说是，要么说不是。大多数时候他们会说：“谢谢。

I am cool with six of these.

我对其中的六个很满意。

This one freaks me out.

这个把我吓坏了

Can we talk more?" Definitely.

我们可以多谈谈吗？”确实。

And I think this is where hiring managers have an incredible responsibility that sometimes isn't taken as seriously as it should, which is, when you are working with someone to get them to join or to offer, you need to bend to do whatever it takes for them.

我认为这就是招聘经理肩负着令人难以置信的责任的地方，但有时并没有得到应有的重视，也就是说，当你与某人合作以让他们加入或提供工作时，你需要弯腰为他们做任何需要做的事情。

And so if they're like, "Hey, the only time I can talk is tonight at 11 o'clock after my kids go to bed."

因此，如果他们说，“嘿，我唯一能说话的时间是今晚 11 点我的孩子们上床睡觉后。”

Kevin Yien: "No problem.

凯文·伊恩：“没问题。

Here's my phone number, let's hop on.

这是我的电话号码，我们赶紧联系吧。

I will walk you through whatever you want to talk about." That sort of has to be the place you get to for really strong hires.

我会引导你完成你想谈论的任何事情。”这种地方一定是你能找到真正优秀人才的地方。

So that's just one other thing I'll say.

这只是我要说的另一件事。

Kevin Yien: The meta point around that is you need to be really invested in the candidates.

Kevin Yien：关键是你需要对候选人进行真正的投资。

This probably does change at a certain scale, like if you're "organization" is hiring a hundred engineers or whatever, you have process around it, you have pipelines, there's a machine at that point, but I do think the direct hiring managers have a responsibility to be really involved in every individual, because there's no one who's directly hiring a hundred people.

这可能确实会在一定程度上发生变化，就像如果你的“组织”正在招聘一百名工程师或其他什么，你有围绕它的流程，你有管道，那时有一台机器，但我确实认为直接招聘经理有责任真正参与每个人，因为没有人直接雇佣一百个人。

It's always within a number that I think you can take on.

我认为它总是在你可以承受的数字之内。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so this is the final tactic that I heard you're amazing at, which is automating user research.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这是我听说你最擅长的最后一个策略，即自动化用户研究。

On the surface this sounds amazing.

从表面上看，这听起来很神奇。

"I'm going to automate my user research.

“我将自动化我的用户研究。

It's going to be amazing.

这将会是令人惊奇的。

So great." Talk about why you find this really powerful and important.

太棒了。”谈谈为什么你认为这非常强大和重要。

And then how do you actually do this?

那么你实际上是如何做到这一点的呢？

How do you automate user research?

如何自动化用户研究？

How have you done this on your teams?

你是如何在你的团队中做到这一点的？

Kevin Yien: Let's start from why this even matters.

Kevin Yien：让我们从为什么这很重要开始。

I think a lot of folks, going back to what is the point of product management, I think there's a similar overlap with UXR, like user experience research, and people will say, "Well, if they're doing research, what do I need to do?

我想很多人，回到产品管理的意义是什么，我认为与 UXR 有类似的重叠，比如用户体验研究，人们会说，“好吧，如果他们在做研究，我需要做什么？

I should just be consuming what they're producing to help with that."

我应该只吃他们生产的东西来帮助解决这个问题。”

Kevin Yien: I know PM should settle for looking through bent glass in my opinion because whether it's a research report, whether it's something a salesperson is telling you, whether it's market research, don't care, it's been processed by someone, and PMs need direct exposure to raw material.

Kevin Yien：在我看来，我知道 PM 应该满足于透过弯曲玻璃来查看，因为无论是研究报告，无论是销售人员告诉你的东西，无论是市场研究，都不在乎，它已经被某人处理过，PM 需要直接接触原材料。

End of story.

故事结束。

And so that's where I think you just need to constantly be talking to or interacting with whoever is your customer.

因此，我认为您只需要不断地与您的客户交谈或互动。

That's the foundation.

这就是基础。

Kevin Yien: So okay, if we all agree on that, then the question is, "Well, I don't have time.

Kevin Yien：好吧，如果我们都同意这一点，那么问题就是，“好吧，我没有时间。

It's so hard.

太难了。

How do I find them?

我如何找到他们？

My customer success manager says I can't talk to the client." If you are in a situation where the product manager is literally not allowed to talk to a customer, there is something structurally wrong and that needs to be fixed first.

我的客户成功经理说我无法与客户交谈。”如果您处于不允许产品经理与客户交谈的情况，则说明存在结构性错误，需要首先修复。

So I'm going to ignore that one for now just because that's a whole other rabbit hole, but you need to fix that in order to even get close to the next thing.

所以我现在要忽略这个，因为那是一个完全不同的兔子洞，但你需要修复它才能接近下一件事。

Kevin Yien: Okay, now the excuse is going to be, "Well, I don't have time.

凯文·伊恩：好吧，现在的借口是，“好吧，我没有时间。

I don't want to run a program.

我不想运行程序。

I don't want to have to query and look up and send out emails every week." There's so many good resources out there right now, and I think that there are...

我不想每周都要查询、查找和发送电子邮件。”现在有很多好的资源，我认为有......

I'll speak mainly from a B2B sense.

我主要从B2B的角度来讲。

I think B2C, slightly different story, I don't have as much experience there.

我认为 B2C 的情况略有不同，我在那里没有太多经验。

But B2B, the two things I will say, one is, there's this thing called userinterviews.com.

但是 B2B，我要说两件事，一是，有一个叫做 userinterviews.com 的东西。

Shout out to them.

向他们大声喊叫。

They're pretty much user testing but explicitly focused on B2B and you can put in super clear criteria on the type of people you want to talk to.

它们几乎都是用户测试，但明确专注于 B2B，您可以针对您想要交谈的人类型设置非常明确的标准。

They do the heavy lifting and sourcing it, and then you just review and say, "Yes, yes.

他们负责繁重的工作和采购，然后你只需回顾并说：“是的，是的。

No, no," and you can have a steady stream of the exact ICP, you want to go after.

不，不，”您可以获得源源不断的精确 ICP，您想要追求的。

ICP is ideal customer profile that you want to go after just coming to you automatically.

ICP 是理想的客户资料，您想在自动找到您后就去。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Kevin Yien: The next one though, it depends on whether or not you have this tooling in place, but the broader theme behind this next category is your sales team is a research team, and if you don't view them that way, you are missing out on half the value.

Kevin Yien：下一个，这取决于你是否拥有这个工具，但下一个类别背后更广泛的主题是你的销售团队是一个研究团队，如果你不这样看待他们，你就会错过一半的价值。

And so there's tools like Gong, which do call recordings, and you can set up filters and alerts for specific terms, phrases, competitors, whatever you want.

因此，有像Gong这样的工具，可以进行通话录音，您可以针对特定术语、短语、竞争对手等任何您想要的内容设置过滤器和警报。

I don't care what PM you are in the team.

我不在乎你在团队中担任什么 PM。

You can find the terms that are associated with what you care about the most.

您可以找到与您最关心的内容相关的术语。

Those then get pushed automatically to a Slack channel or otherwise.

然后，这些内容会自动推送到 Slack 频道或其他渠道。

And then you can set up workflows either via Zappy or something else to say, "Who was the customer?

然后您可以通过 Zappy 或其他方式设置工作流程，“谁是客户？

Pull their email, put that into a sequence, drop in my Calendly" and you just have interviews showing up automatically on your calendar.

提取他们的电子邮件，将其放入序列中，然后放入我的 Calendly”，然后您的日历上就会自动显示采访。

I will say I cannot take credit for this.

我会说我不能因此而获得荣誉。

Shout out to Beth Hills who was a PM that hired at Mutiny.

向贝丝·希尔斯 (Beth Hills) 致敬，她是 Mutiny 的一名 PM。

She is the queen of automating customer research and built an amazing system around this.

她是自动化客户研究领域的女王，并围绕此建立了一个令人惊叹的系统。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the way it works is you set a term for like, I don't know, POS, point of sale, something in Gong, and if somebody says that or has an issue there, talk about again how that schedules a meeting with you potentially.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以它的工作方式是你为 POS、销售点、Gong 中的某些东西设置一个术语，如果有人这么说或在那里有问题，请再次讨论如何安排与你的会面。

Kevin Yien: Yes.

凯文·伊恩：是的。

So Gong has an integration with Slack.

因此，Gong 与 Slack 进行了集成。

You set up this alert, it posts to Slack the excerpt of the transcript where it was mentioned along with the user or customer name.

您设置了此警报，它会将提及的文字记录摘录以及用户或客户名称发布到 Slack。

So in this case, it'll be Lenny's Burger shop.

所以在本例中，它将是 Lenny's Burger 店。

lenny@lennysburgershop.com, and then you can set up a Zapier to take every new Slack post from that and then send using, I don't know, customer.io in email to that person using that field.

lenny@lennysburgershop.com，然后您可以设置一个 Zapier，从中获取每个新的 Slack 帖子，然后使用（我不知道）customer.io 在电子邮件中发送给使用该字段的那个人。

And then in that template of the email, drop in your Calendly specifically for user research.

然后在该电子邮件模板中，放入专门用于用户研究的 Calendly。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is genius.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这真是天才。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

There's another similar tactic that Teresa Torres shared on the podcast in one of the earlier episodes where you have a little popup on your homepage asking people, "Hey, do you want to talk?

特雷莎·托雷斯（Teresa Torres）在前一集中的播客上分享了另一种类似的策略，在你的主页上有一个小弹出窗口询问人们，“嘿，你想谈谈吗？

We'd love to hear feedback on our product.

我们很乐意听到有关我们产品的反馈。

Click here if you want to give us some feedback," and then that schedules Calendly on the PMs.

如果您想给我们一些反馈，请点击此处”，然后在 PM 上安排 Calendly。

Lenny Rachitsky: PM's calendar.

Lenny Rachitsky：总理的日历。

So you mentioned Gong, customer.io.

所以你提到了Gong，customer.io。

There's some tools here.

这里有一些工具。

Zapier obviously.

显然是扎皮尔。

Is there anything else you find useful to help automate the sort of stuff?

您认为还有什么其他有用的东西可以帮助自动化此类工作吗？

Kevin Yien: If I take a step back from the automation side or maybe straddle it, depending on the type of business you're in, there's ideally people talking about you somewhere, right?

Kevin Yien：如果我从自动化方面退后一步或者跨过它，根据您所处的业务类型，理想情况下有人在某个地方谈论您，对吧？

It's either happening on Reddit or Twitter or on some forum or your support forum.

它要么发生在 Reddit 或 Twitter 上，要么发生在某个论坛或您的支持论坛上。

There is a community, there's a destination somewhere.

有一个社区，某个地方就有一个目的地。

And if there isn't, then I don't know, that's too bad.

如果没有，那我就不知道了，那就太糟糕了。

Maybe you don't have product-market fit.

也许您的产品不适合市场。

If you can take advantage of that, you can usually set up something.

如果你能利用这一点，你通常可以设置一些东西。

And if it's not a Gong or a Zapier, maybe it needs to be just a custom script that you write or you sit down with an engineer to say like, "How do we set up alerting around this thing so that I know when things are happening?"

如果它不是Gong或Zapier，也许它需要只是您编写的自定义脚本，或者您与工程师坐下来说，“我们如何围绕这件事设置警报，以便我知道事情何时发生？”

Kevin Yien: I think you can't use the effort required to do that as an excuse to not be talking to your customers more frequently.

Kevin Yien：我认为你不能以这样做所需的努力作为不更频繁地与客户交谈的借口。

Because again, if we go back to a product manager should be trying to convert this potential into kinetic energy, part of that understanding and part of knowing the constraints you can apply is just living in that world as much as possible.

因为，如果我们回到产品经理应该尝试将这种潜力转化为动能，那么理解和了解您可以应用的限制的一部分就是尽可能生活在那个世界中。

Kevin Yien: The best comparison I can give is, there is a world of difference between reading a report about a lime cook and then standing with a lime cook.

Kevin Yien：我能给出的最好的比较是，阅读有关石灰厨师的报告和与石灰厨师站在一起之间有天壤之别。

You will just pick up on so many ancillary aspects of what their life is like that cannot possibly be communicated in a report.

你只会了解到他们生活的许多辅助方面，而这些是不可能在报告中传达的。

You owe it to yourself as a PM to be exposed to those things all the time.

作为产品经理，你有责任一直接触这些事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: In my experience, every time I talk to a customer, I'm always reminded, "Why have I not been doing this more?

Lenny Rachitsky：根据我的经验，每次与客户交谈时，我总是会被提醒，“为什么我没有多做一点呢？

How can I not be doing this?

我怎么能不这样做呢？

It's absurd that I haven't done this," like every time you actually do it.

荒谬的是我没有这样做，”就像你每次真正这样做一样。

But until you do that, you're like, "No, no, I know what they want.

但在你这样做之前，你会说：“不，不，我知道他们想要什么。

I'm reading all the customer service talent issues, I'm reading their emails, I get it." Until you actually talk to them, you're like, "Oh wow, I had no idea."

我正在阅读所有客户服务人才问题，我正在阅读他们的电子邮件，我明白了。”在你真正与他们交谈之前，你会说，“哦，哇，我不知道。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that your advice is like, the tactics you're sharing aren't, "Here's how you get a bunch of feedback." From your users, it's like, "Here's how you actually get to talk to the right users." It's like in the end of the funnel talking to a potential customer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的建议，你分享的策略不是“这是你获得大量反馈的方式”。对于您的用户来说，这就像“这就是您实际上如何与正确的用户交谈的方式”。这就像在漏斗的末端与潜在客户交谈。

It's not just reading a cool...

这不仅仅是读一本很酷的书...

some feedback that they shared.

他们分享的一些反馈。

Kevin Yien: That's right.

凯文·伊恩：没错。

I think just like the last point on this one is when you join a new team or start a new role, every PM is budding with energy to do this, "Of course I'm going to talk to my users." But then you reach a point where you go, "No, I know them inside and out.

我认为，就像这一点的最后一点是，当你加入一个新团队或开始一个新角色时，每个 PM 都充满了能量来做到这一点，“当然我会和我的用户交谈。”但后来你会说：“不，我对他们了如指掌。

I don't need to talk to them anymore.

我不需要再和他们说话了。

I can write a PRD in my sleep.

我可以在睡梦中写出 PRD。

And I'm so busy doing both, product improvements, maintenance, annual planning, something else.I can use my intuition from the hundred interviews I've already done.

我正忙着做这两件事，产品改进、维护、年度计划，还有其他事情。我可以利用我已经完成的数百次采访中的直觉。

I don't need to do one more interview." And that is a very tempting lie to tell yourself because the world is changing, their lives are changing, and you need to constantly be exposed to those little micro changes in their lives in order to build the product that they'll eventually need.

我不需要再接受一次采访。”这是一个非常诱人的谎言，因为世界在变化，他们的生活也在变化，你需要不断地接触他们生活中那些微小的变化，才能打造出他们最终需要的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: The best explanation I've heard of this is actually from your new boss, Patrick Collison, boss's boss's boss, I don't know how far away you're from him, where he talks about user research and where it fits in.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听过的最好的解释实际上来自你的新老板帕特里克·科里森（Patrick Collison），老板的老板的老板，我不知道你离他有多远，他在哪里谈论用户研究以及它的适用范围。

And the way he described it is, instead of doing user research, talking to customers, informing what to build, it's talking to user, talking to customers informs your mental of what the customer needs and then that informs what to build.

他描述的方式是，不是进行用户研究，与客户交谈，告知要构建什么，而是与用户交谈，与客户交谈告诉你客户需要什么，然后告诉你要构建什么。

Beautiful way to think about it.: Okay, so I'm going to take us to a couple recurring themes of this podcast, a couple corners of this room that we have.

很好的思考方式。：好的，我将带我们了解这个播客的几个反复出现的主题，以及我们这个房间的几个角落。

First of all, I want to go to AI corner, so let's walk over there.

首先我想去AI角，那我们就步行过去吧。

Hello, AI corner.

你好，人工智能角。

I'm curious if you've found any interesting uses of AI in your work or in your life.

我很好奇您是否在工作或生活中发现了人工智能的任何有趣用途。

Kevin Yien: There's plenty in work.

Kevin Yien：有很多工作要做。

I don't know if any of them are interesting or novel.

我不知道其中是否有有趣或新颖的内容。

I feel like everyone's just figuring it out in real time together.

我觉得每个人都在实时地一起解决这个问题。

So I'll actually take us in a slightly different direction.

所以我实际上会带我们走向一个稍微不同的方向。

And this may be isn't directly useful to product managers, but I think it's a really good story.

这可能对产品经理没有直接用处，但我认为这是一个非常好的故事。

Kevin Yien: So when Midjourney V1 was released, if we can remember that far back, it was at least I got beta access on a Saturday.

Kevin Yien：所以，当 Midjourney V1 发布时，如果我们还记得很久以前的话，至少我是在周六获得测试版访问权限的。

And for what's worth, I have three daughters, one of them's seven years old, and so her and I were awake.

值得一提的是，我有三个女儿，其中一个七岁了，所以她和我都醒着。

We were waiting for the other two to wake up and I was like, "Oh, I have this cool new thing.

我们在等另外两个人醒来，我当时想，“哦，我有这个很酷的新东西。

Do you want to play with me?" And she goes, "Of course." So we log in, we create an account and I type in the first prompt, image gets generated, it's like a rainbow or something.

你想和我一起玩吗？”她说，“当然。”所以我们登录，创建一个帐户，然后输入第一个提示，图像就会生成，就像彩虹之类的。

And then I ask her, "Do you want to try it?" She goes, "Of course." So she types in unicorn prancing in a field and it generates this hideous looking demented unicorn with two rear ends and a demon flying over it.

然后我问她：“你想尝试一下吗？”她说：“当然。”因此，她输入“独角兽在田野中腾跃”，结果生成了这只看起来丑陋、疯狂的独角兽，它有两个屁股，上面有一个恶魔飞过。

And I'm appalled at first thinking that she's going to feel really bad about what she got shown, but instead I look over and she's in awe.

一开始我很震惊，以为她会对自己所展示的东西感到非常难过，但我仔细一看，她很敬畏。

She is amazed.

她很惊讶。

Kevin Yien: And then she turns to me and she goes, "Did I draw that?"

凯文·伊恩：然后她转向我，问道：“那是我画的吗？”

Kevin Yien: "Yeah, I guess you did." And the thing that I got hung up on was that she used the word draw.

凯文·伊恩：“是的，我想你做到了。”让我困惑的是她使用了“绘画”这个词。

She didn't say, "Oh, I enter a prompt and the LLM produced this thing," or whatever weird terminology that all of us use.

她没有说，“哦，我输入一个提示，法学硕士产生了这个东西”，或者我们所有人都使用的任何奇怪的术语。

It's like, "Did I draw that?" I don't know when it clicked for me, but at some point in time after that I was like, "The concept of these image generation models is the same as a crayon to her.

就像“这是我画的吗？”我不知道我什么时候想到的，但在那之后的某个时间点，我想，“这些图像生成模型的概念对她来说就像蜡笔一样。

There is no difference in her mind." And that is an insane change that I can't even comprehend.

她的思想没有什么不同。”这是一个我什至无法理解的疯狂变化。

And so for me that's just been I think an experience that I go back to when I think about people asking, "What do you think AI is going to do and what's the next thing?

所以对我来说，当我想到人们问“你认为人工智能会做什么以及下一步是什么？

And is it chat or is it something else?" I cannot comprehend what a child who grew up with a crayon of an LLM is going to think is a good product in 20 years.

是聊天还是别的什么？”我无法理解一个拿着法学硕士蜡笔长大的孩子20年后会认为什么是好产品。

I need to start crying.

我需要开始哭泣。

But goddammit, I have no freaking clue.

但该死的，我没有任何线索。

Kevin Yien: And so I think I have a cheat code actually as a parent, because I get to see how they evolve and use these tools in real time.

Kevin Yien：所以我认为作为父母我实际上有一个作弊代码，因为我可以实时看到他们如何发展和使用这些工具。

But all I can say is we are not even beneath the dust on the surface when it comes to what's going to change.

但我只能说，当谈到即将发生的变化时，我们甚至还没有处于表面的尘埃之下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is an amazing story, it gave me tingles.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个很棒的故事，它让我感到兴奋。

It makes me think a little bit about how we used to code in binary and then assembly and now it's Java, and then I don't know, all the languages, Python.

这让我思考一下我们过去如何用二进制编码，然后用汇编编码，现在是 Java，然后我不知道，所有语言，Python。

And now it's like AI, LLM generating code and it's the same thing for drawing potentially.

现在它就像人工智能、法学硕士生成代码一样，对于潜在的绘图也是一样的。

It used to be sticks on a cave and then became crayons and pens and iPads and all that stuff.

它曾经是洞穴里的棍子，后来变成了蜡笔、钢笔和 iPad 之类的东西。

And now it's again LLMs, so that's pretty bonkers.

现在又是法学硕士，所以这很疯狂。

Amazing story.

令人惊奇的故事。

Thanks for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

Useful to PMs and non PMs alike.

对 PM 和非 PM 都有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to take you to another recurring corner/segment of the podcast, fail corner.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我将带您到播客的另一个经常出现的角落/片段，失败角落。

I'm curious if there's a story of failure that you can share of something that didn't go the way you wanted and still had a positive impact on your life or career?

我很好奇是否有一个失败的故事，你可以分享一些事情没有按照你想要的方式发展，但仍然对你的生活或职业产生积极影响？

Kevin Yien: Well, there's countless stories of failure, but I'll choose the one that I think I've had to reference the most with people and has been to date the most difficult one to really talk about.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：嗯，失败的故事有无数，但我会选择一个我认为我必须向人们提及最多并且迄今为止最难真正谈论的一个。

I'm on the other end of it, and so now it's very easy, but it took several years to get there.

我在它的另一端，所以现在很容易，但花了几年时间才到达那里。

Kevin Yien: So context, I'm my way to PM, I land my first official, by title, PM job at a startup.

Kevin Yien：所以，背景是，我正在走向 PM，我在一家初创公司获得了第一份正式的 PM 职位。

I made it.

我做到了。

I've arrived.

我到了。

I'm officially a product manager.

我正式成为产品经理。

And we go up, we go down, all the things happen.

我们上升，我们下降，所有的事情都发生了。

Fast-forward, the company is really struggling and so we go through a series of rolling layoffs and I'm round 4 something.

快进到，公司确实陷入了困境，所以我们经历了一系列的滚动裁员，而我已经是第四轮了。

At that point in time, my wife was nine months pregnant with our first child, and so I am freaking out.

那时，我的妻子怀着我们的第一个孩子已经九个月了，所以我吓坏了。

There is the personal side that I'm worried about, but then there's also my identity that has been completely crushed, because in the moment all I could think was, "I thought I was a product manager.

我担心的是个人方面，但我的身份也被彻底摧毁了，因为那一刻我所能想到的就是，“我以为我是一名产品经理。

This is evidence I am not," and I couldn't get past that.

这证明我不是，”我无法克服这一点。

Kevin Yien: And so for what it's worth, this is the one post I have on my website that I actually feel really, really proud of.

Kevin Yien：因此，就其价值而言，这是我在我的网站上发表的一篇文章，我实际上感到非常非常自豪。

It's called Finding Swagger.

这就是所谓的“寻找招摇”。

I can talk about why it's titled that way, but it's the thing that I really wrote more for myself because it's a good reminder to me every time I fall into this mentality again, because that may have been the first time that I really had the feelings of, "I'm not worth it" or, "I'm not meant to be this person," but it's recurred several times since then over the past decade.

我可以谈谈为什么它是这样的标题，但这是我真正为自己写的东西，因为每次我再次陷入这种心态时，这对我来说都是一个很好的提醒，因为这可能是我第一次真正有“我不值得”或“我不适合成为这个人”的感觉，但从那以后在过去的十年里它又重复出现了好几次。

And when I read back through my mentality of how I got to the other end of it, it helps even myself sort of get back on the horse.

当我回顾自己的心态，了解自己是如何到达终点时，它甚至帮助我自己重新上马。

Kevin Yien: So okay, I get laid off, I'm distraught, I have no purpose, I'm nothing.

Kevin Yien：好吧，我被解雇了，我心烦意乱，我没有目标，我什么都不是。

And it was through a lot of reflection, a lot of conversation with friends and my wife where you eventually need to convince yourself that there is a difference between you not being good at something and a business or company not needing that thing at a particular moment in time, or you being very good at something but not in the way that a company needs.

通过大量的反思，与朋友和我的妻子进行大量的交谈，你最终需要说服自己，你不擅长某件事，而企业或公司在某个特定时刻不需要那件事，或者你非常擅长某件事，但不是公司需要的方式，这是有区别的。

Kevin Yien: And so I think once I was able to get to that, Square for me was the immediate subsequent role that I took on.

Kevin Yien：所以我认为一旦我能够做到这一点，Square 对我来说就是我接下来扮演的角色。

And I went into that thing just full steam ahead, I'm going to prove myself.

我全力以赴地投入到这件事中，我要证明自己。

"I know I'm good," because I think I'm good, "and I am going to prove the hell out of that" mainly to myself, but ideally to other people too.

“我知道我很好”，因为我认为我很好，“我将证明这一点”，主要是向我自己，但最好也向其他人证明。

Kevin Yien: I think you shouldn't do things for other people for validation, but the initial success I got to see in launching a product, gaining the trust of my peers, having something that restaurants were texting me about, saying, "I can start my restaurant because of this.

Kevin Yien：我认为你不应该为别人做事来获得认可，但我在推出产品、获得同行信任、餐馆给我发短信说“因此我可以开办我的餐馆”方面看到了初步的成功。

I didn't go down during rush hour because of this," that gave me the validation to say, "Okay, I am competent at this thing called product management." And then from there you can continue to build and continue to grow.

我没有因此而在高峰时段倒下”，这让我得到了验证，说：“好吧，我有能力胜任产品管理这件事。”然后从那里你可以继续构建并继续增长。

Kevin Yien: But I think right now, the market's weird, right?

Kevin Yien：但我认为现在的市场很奇怪，对吧？

The market's wonky.

市场很不稳定。

There's a lot of really good talent that is just getting hit over sideways.

有很多非常优秀的人才只是受到了侧面的打击。

I have a lot of friends that are having the same mental conversations around, "Well, I guess I'm just not worth it.

我有很多朋友都在进行同样的心理对话，“好吧，我想我只是不值得。

I guess I wasn't cut out actually to do this job, do this role, be of this purpose." In some cases, maybe that's true and you can sort of have a career transition or a pivot in your life, but I think it's worthwhile to reflect on what are the things that were in your control that you can now change moving forward?

我想我实际上并不适合做这份工作，做这个角色，达到这个目的。”在某些情况下，也许这是真的，你可以进行职业转型或生活中的一个支点，但我认为值得反思的是，哪些事情是在你的控制范围内，你现在可以改变前进的？

And then what are the things that were truly out of your control that you can now apply to find a better fit?

那么，哪些事情是你真正无法控制的，而你现在可以应用这些事情来找到更合适的人选呢？

And that's one of the big things that I've been able to, I think, come around to.

我认为这是我能够做到的一件大事。

Kevin Yien: And it's really hard because early on I think it's very tempting to associate a lot of different things with your identity.

Kevin Yien：这真的很难，因为一开始我认为很容易将很多不同的事物与你的身份联系起来。

You're like, "I'm a startup guy.

你会说，“我是一个创业者。

I'm a PM, I'm a fast whatever, I'm a fast thinker." And when an event happens that pokes at that part of your identity, the rest of it crumbles.

我是一名产品经理，我是一个速度很快的人，我是一个快速思考的人。”当发生的事件触动了你身份的这一部分时，其余的部分就会崩溃。

And so long story short, I think it's really important for folks to use these moments where it feels bad and feels like a failure to reevaluate what parts are actually part of your identity and which parts are in your control to change in whatever you do next.

长话短说，我认为对于人们来说，利用这些感觉糟糕、感觉无法重新评估哪些部分实际上是你的身份的一部分以及哪些部分在你的控制范围内以改变你下一步所做的事情的时刻是非常重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, what an important and great story.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个多么重要和伟大的故事啊。

As you mentioned, a lot of people are dealing with finding it hard to find a new gig and a bunch of layoffs.

正如你所提到的，很多人都面临着很难找到新工作和大量裁员的问题。

I think this is going to help a lot of people.

我认为这会对很多人有帮助。

The two categories you shared I think are especially powerful.

我认为你分享的两个类别特别强大。

So the advice here is just separate, "This company just doesn't need someone with my skills right now" from, "I'm not good at these skills." Can you just share those two kind of things that might be true that you may not be recognizing about why they maybe laid you off again?

因此，这里的建议是分开的，“这家公司现在不需要拥有我技能的人”和“我不擅长这些技能”。您能否分享一下这两种可能是真的但您可能没有意识到他们为什么会再次解雇您的事情？

Kevin Yien: Totally.

凯文·伊恩：完全可以。

So one is the business just doesn't have a need for you.

所以一是企业根本不需要你。

They got ahead of their skis and that's their fault.

他们领先于滑雪板，这是他们的错。

They probably admit that, but that's not up to you.

他们可能承认这一点，但这不取决于你。

The second one though is my skills and the way that company operates are not compatible.

第二个是我的技能和公司的运作方式不兼容。

This one I think is really, really important because I've seen so many times where there's been a PM engineer, designer, whatever role, they cannot make it work at company A, and then you see them five years later just killing it in company B and you're like, "Did they change as a person?

我认为这一点真的非常重要，因为我见过很多次，无论是 PM 工程师、设计师，无论什么角色，他们都无法在 A 公司发挥作用，然后你看到五年后他们在 B 公司却把它搞得一团糟，你会想，“他们作为一个人改变了吗？

Did they get super good at what they were bad at before?" Maybe a little bit, but honestly it was just a change in environment.

他们是否变得非常擅长以前不擅长的事情？”也许有一点，但说实话，这只是环境的变化。

And when you find the right environment in the right role, you just flourish.

当您找到合适的环境担任合适的角色时，您就会蓬勃发展。

Kevin Yien: And I think this is actually...

凯文·伊恩：我认为这实际上是......

Sorry, we'll go back to hiring for just a moment or at least management.

抱歉，我们将暂时重新招聘管理层，或者至少招聘管理层。

Kevin Yien: This is why performance conversations can always feel so difficult because it seems like you're telling someone you are bad, and as the recipient you're like, "I am bad." No one wants to hear that.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：这就是为什么绩效对话总是让人感觉如此困难，因为这似乎是你在告诉某人你很糟糕，而作为接受者，你就像是“我很糟糕”。没有人想听这个。

But the reality is, you are not bad.

但现实是，你并不坏。

It is that maybe the way that your environment is working, the machine that you exist as a part of, is not the kind that you thrive in.

也许你的环境的运作方式，你作为其一部分而存在的机器，并不是让你茁壮成长的那种方式。

And so it's within your control to decide, "I'm going to change how I work to fit that environment" or, "I'm going to find a different environment that actually fits the way I work much better." And that's empowering.

因此，您可以决定“我要改变我的工作方式以适应该环境”或者“我要找到一个更适合我工作方式的不同环境”。这就是赋权。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that also applies a lot to interviewing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这也适用于面试。

A lot of times you interview, don't get the job, and you exactly feel like, "Oh, I'm just not good enough." But really that company's way of working just may not gel with the way you operate.

很多时候你面试后没有得到这份工作，你就会觉得，“哦，我只是不够好。”但实际上，该公司的工作方式可能与您的运作方式并不相符。

Like Uber operates very differently from Airbnb, operates very differently from Google.

就像 Uber 的运作方式与 Airbnb 非常不同，与谷歌的运作方式也非常不同。

And so it's not that necessarily something you're doing wrong, they just don't think you're fit.

所以这不一定是你做错了什么，他们只是认为你不适合。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this connects to something.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与某些东西有关。

I just had another guest on the podcast.

我刚刚在播客上邀请了另一位客人。

He was a brain science dude, and he talks about how every company has this kind of habitat.

他是一名脑科学专家，他谈到每家公司都有这样的栖息地。

What habitat are you creating for your employees to enable them to think differently or to be shut down and not feel like they can be creative or try big things or not?

您为员工创造了什么样的栖息地，使他们能够以不同的方式思考，或者被封闭起来，感觉自己无法发挥创造力或尝试大事？

And basically, the way he just kind of to leverage that metaphor, like you may be a palm tree and you're trying to join Antarctica and it's not going to go well.

基本上，他只是利用了这个比喻，就像你可能是一棵棕榈树，你试图加入南极洲，但进展不会顺利。

Lenny Rachitsky: You got to find Palm Springs or some hard place.

Lenny Rachitsky：你必须找到棕榈泉或一些困难的地方。

Kevin, this has been amazing.

凯文，这太棒了。

Okay, so before we get to very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you think is important or valuable to share, leave listeners with?

好的，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您认为还有什么重要或有价值的东西可以分享给听众吗？

And if not, absolutely.

如果没有，绝对是。

Kevin Yien: I think we'll probably find ourselves on interesting detours to the lightning round, so let's roll in.

Kevin Yien：我想我们可能会发现自己在闪电回合中绕了有趣的弯路，所以让我们开始吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kevin, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：凯文，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。

Question one, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

问题一，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Kevin Yien: I'll start by saying the type of book by volume that I read and get the most joy from are autobiographies and memoirs.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：首先我要说的是，我读过并从中获得最大乐趣的书籍类型是自传和回忆录。

It is just the ultimate cheat code to spend time with people that you respect, are interested by, or want to learn from.

这只是与你尊敬的人、感兴趣的人或想向他们学习的人共度时光的终极作弊代码。

Kevin Yien: Could you imagine what it would take in real life to sit down with Albert Einstein for 50 hours and just have him talk to you about his life?

凯文·伊恩：你能想象在现实生活中与阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦坐下来 50 个小时并让他与你谈论他的生活需要什么吗？

Impossible.

不可能。

But you can read and pretty much get the same thing.

但你可以阅读并得到几乎相同的东西。

Kevin Yien: So anyways, strong requirement or a strong suggestion, go read autobiographies and memoirs of people that you respect, mostly for their mental model and way to approach thinking, less about specific things.

Kevin Yien：所以无论如何，无论是强烈的要求还是强烈的建议，去阅读你尊敬的人的自传和回忆录，主要是为了他们的思维模式和思考方式，而不是具体的事情。

But the one book that I read without fail every year has a very misleading title.

但我每年必读的一本书的书名非常具有误导性。

It's called The Courage to Be Disliked.

这就是《被讨厌的勇气》。

I think it's been mentioned previously on the podcast, but it covers...

我认为之前在播客中已经提到过，但它涵盖了......

It's a very Socratic method style, so it's about a philosopher and a young person, and it tries to teach you the ways of Adlerian psychology, which is sort of counter to Jungian theory.

这是一种非常苏格拉底式的方法风格，所以它是关于一个哲学家和一个年轻人的，它试图教你阿德勒心理学的方法，这有点与荣格理论相反。

Kevin Yien: The reason I really like it is because it makes me uncomfortable.

Kevin Yien：我真正喜欢它的原因是因为它让我不舒服。

So the whole premise, in my opinion, behind the book and other in psychology is focus on what you control.

因此，在我看来，这本书和其他心理学书籍背后的整个前提是关注你所控制的东西。

That's the one line.

就是那一行。

Don't worry about everything else.

别担心其他一切。

Don't worry about what other people think.

不要担心其他人的想法。

Don't worry about what other people do.

不要担心其他人做什么。

You cannot control those.

你无法控制这些。

You focus on yourself and you focus on the actions you can take.

你专注于自己，专注于你可以采取的行动。

And be the person that you think will attract other people, that you want to be around.

成为一个你认为会吸引其他人、你想和他在一起的人。

Kevin Yien: There's some really pointed notes in there that I'm like, "Ha-ha-ha-ha.

Kevin Yien：里面有一些非常尖锐的注释，我想，“哈哈哈。

I don't fully agree with that one," but it always pushes me to question something about what I believe.

我并不完全同意这一点，”但这总是促使我对我所相信的东西提出质疑。

And so in every physical copy of a book I have, I write the date that I started reading it again.

因此，在我拥有的每一本书的实体副本中，我都会写下我再次开始阅读这本书的日期。

The front inside cover of this book, I think it's been seven or eight years at this point that I've read it every single year.

这本书的封面内页，我想我每年都会读这本书，已经有七八年了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

It's like a decision logging in another context almost.

这几乎就像在另一个上下文中记录的决策。

Kevin Yien: Yeah, a little bit.

凯文·伊恩：是的，有一点。

I would say the other book I was going to mention is The Paper Menagerie.

我想说的另一本书是《纸动物园》。

This actually shout out to Sean Rose for...

这实际上是向肖恩·罗斯大声喊叫……

I've never met him, but I really appreciate Sean.

我从未见过他，但我真的很欣赏肖恩。

He was one of the early, if not, first PMs of Slack, and he used to be really loud on Twitter in a very good way, and I think I learned a ton from stuff that he would post.

他是 Slack 的早期（如果不是）第一批 PM 之一，他曾经在 Twitter 上以非常好的方式大声喧哗，我想我从他发布的内容中学到了很多东西。

But one of the things that he posted was this book.

但他发布的东西之一就是这本书。

It is just the most beautiful collection of essays that span sci-fi and fantasy.

这是跨越科幻和奇幻的最美丽的散文集。

And so if you're into that kind of stuff, if you like exhalation, then Paper Menagerie is even better.

因此，如果您喜欢这类东西，如果您喜欢呼气，那么 Paper Menagerie 会更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, shit.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：噢，该死。

Guess I got to add this book to my list.

我想我必须把这本书添加到我的清单中。

I do love exhalation.

我确实喜欢呼气。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man, this job is tough.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计，这项工作很艰难。

I get to learn all these amazing books and then I got to read them, but I don't have time.

我要学习所有这些精彩的书籍，然后我必须阅读它们，但我没有时间。

Hard.

难的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of more time, next question.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到更多时间，下一个问题。

Do you have any favorite recent movies or TV shows that you really enjoyed?

您最近有什么最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Kevin Yien: There's less time for either these days.

Kevin Yien：现在，这两件事的时间都少了。

I will say not novel, the Bear holds a very special place in my heart right now, both because I worked in restaurants and I got to build for them.

我想说的是，这并不新奇，熊现在在我心中占据着非常特殊的位置，既因为我在餐馆工作，又因为我必须为他们建造。

And so seeing the details that they do actually gives me a lot of anxiety, but I really appreciate the craft they put into it.

因此，看到他们所做的细节实际上让我很焦虑，但我真的很欣赏他们投入的技巧。

Kevin Yien: The other show, actually, I think this is the first time, Physical 100.

Kevin Yien：另一个节目，实际上，我认为这是第一次，《体能100》。

So this is a Netflix show.

这是 Netflix 的节目。

It's a Korean show about a hundred different bodybuilders, athletes, what have you, on who has the optimum physique or whatever.

这是一个关于一百个不同的健美运动员、运动员的韩国节目，你有什么，谁拥有最佳体质等等。

I don't really care about that part.

我不太关心那部分。

The two things I love about the show are, one, it's ridiculous what people are capable of.

我喜欢这个节目的两点是，第一，人们的能力是荒谬的。

You see what they can physically do and you're like, "Oh my God, that's amazing what they can put their minds to." The other part though, and this is maybe a trend of Korean shows that I've noticed, is the amount of respect they have in this competition is bar none.

当你看到他们的身体能力时，你会想，“天哪，他们能用心去做这件事，真是太神奇了。”另一方面，这可能是我注意到的韩国节目的趋势，他们在这场比赛中受到的尊重是无与伦比的。

You have this guy who is historically famous, was the top champion in judo or something, and you have all these other athletes that are 15, 20 years younger, and they're bowing and just humble to compete against the guy.

这个人历史上很有名，是柔道之类的顶级冠军，还有所有其他比他年轻 15 岁、20 岁的运动员，他们鞠躬，谦虚地与这个人竞争。

I kind of wish that more American Joes had that level of respect as opposed to just trying to find the most conflict.

我有点希望更多的美国乔能够得到这种程度的尊重，而不是仅仅试图找到最大的冲突。

There's something that I really like about that.

我真的很喜欢这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太漂亮了。

I've started that show, but I haven't continued it, so I'm going to revisit it.

我已经开始了那个节目，但我还没有继续它，所以我要重新审视它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Kevin Yien: We got a really old 2002 Jeep to work on with my daughters, just like a true junker.

Kevin Yien：我们有一辆非常旧的 2002 款吉普车来和我的女儿们一起工作，就像一个真正的垃圾车一样。

And as a result of that, we're repairing it.

因此，我们正在修复它。

We're taking off the rust, replacing parts, and so there's these little magnetic trays that you can hold screws and nails and whatnot, so they don't go flying and rolling around everywhere.

我们正在除锈，更换零件，所以有这些小磁性托盘，你可以固定螺丝钉和钉子之类的东西，这样它们就不会到处乱飞和滚动。

It's stupidly useful when you're working on a car.

当你在修汽车时，它非常有用。

And the girls love it because they can use it for other things like collecting hair clips or whatever else.

女孩们喜欢它，因为她们可以用它来做其他事情，比如收集发夹或其他任何东西。

So magnetic trays, shout out.

所以磁性托盘，大声喊出来。

Kevin Yien: And then selfishly, I will say my buddy Arjun Mahanti has an app called Circuit.

Kevin Yien：然后自私地说，我的朋友 Arjun Mahanti 有一个名为 Circuit 的应用程序。

If you search the app store for Circuit, like C-I-R-C-U-I-T, HIIT timer, it's such a delightful little app that lets you track Tabata sex or whatever else to just get a little workout in.

如果您在应用程序商店中搜索 Circuit，例如 C-I-R-C-U-I-T、HIIT 计时器，这是一个非常令人愉快的小应用程序，可以让您跟踪 Tabata 性爱或其他任何只是为了锻炼一下的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Super cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级酷。

Magnetic tray is not boring at all.

磁性托盘一点也不无聊。

That is extremely cool and it has a really cool story too.

这非常酷，而且它还有一个非常酷的故事。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find useful to share with friends and family in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾并发现在工作或生活中与朋友和家人分享很有用？

Kevin Yien: I think we've actually maybe touched on both of these.

Kevin Yien：我认为我们实际上可能已经触及了这两个问题。

I'll cheat and I'll pull one from maybe each parent so that in case they see this, they don't feel like I'm favoring one of them.

我会作弊，我会从每个家长那里拿一个，这样万一他们看到这个，他们就不会觉得我偏爱他们中的一个。

Kevin Yien: So my mom's side, I think something that she would always repeat to me growing up is everything happens for a reason.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：所以我妈妈这边，我认为她在成长过程中总是对我重复的一句话是，一切的发生都是有原因的。

I hated that growing up because she only said it when something bad would happen.

我从小就讨厌这样说，因为她只在发生不好的事情时才这么说。

Something bad happens, she goes, "Everything happens for a reason," and I'm like, "No, it doesn't.

不好的事情发生了，她说，“一切的发生都是有原因的，”我说，“不，事实并非如此。

Life just sucks." And to no surprise at this point in the conversation, I've now grown to really, really appreciate that piece of advice because what it's actually trying to communicate is, when something happens, good or bad, frankly, don't dwell on it.

生活真是糟透了。”毫不奇怪，在谈话的这一点上，我现在真的非常非常欣赏这条建议，因为它实际上试图传达的是，当发生某些事情时，无论好坏，坦率地说，不要沉迷其中。

That's the past.

那是过去的事了。

Focus on what you want to do and then just move towards that.

专注于你想做的事情，然后朝着它前进。

And then in most cases, you'll be able to look back in one, five, 10 years and connect the dots in a way where the story makes sense in your mind.

然后在大多数情况下，你将能够在一年、五年、十年后回顾并以你认为故事有意义的方式将这些点联系起来。

And so just having that shift in perspective I think has helped me a lot to not overreact to anything that happens in my life.

因此，我认为这种观点的转变对我有很大帮助，让我不会对生活中发生的任何事情反应过度。

So that's one side.

这是一方面。

Kevin Yien: And then on my dad's side, so the funny origins of this, unsurprising to anyone with Asian parents, I'm a spunky little 7-year-old, I come home with my math test one day.

Kevin Yien：然后在我父亲这边，所以这个有趣的起源，对于任何有亚洲父母的人来说都不足为奇，我是一个充满活力的 7 岁小孩子，有一天我带着数学考试回家。

I got 97%.

我得到了97%。

I think that's pretty good.

我认为这很好。

I go show it to my dad with beaming eyes and pride.

我带着灿烂的眼睛和自豪的心情把它拿给我爸爸看。

He sort of stares down his nose at it, looks at me, "Where's my other 3%?"

他有点低头盯着它，看着我，“我的另外 3% 呢？”

Kevin Yien: I'm just distraught and I sulk away.

Kevin Yien：我只是心烦意乱，生闷气。

I'm very sad.

我很伤心。

I study hard.

我努力学习。

I do the next math test, I get 100% yes.

我做了下一次数学测试，我得到 100% 的答案。

All right, dad's approval, here we come.

好吧，爸爸同意了，我们就来吧。

I come flying back, I put the test in his hands, he stares down his nose at it, looks at me, "Where's my other 3%?" I'm so confused.

我飞回来，把测试放在他手里，他低头盯着它，看着我，“我的另外 3% 呢？”我很困惑。

I'm like, "I got 100 out of 100.

我想，“我得了 100 分中的 100 分。

I have no clue what you're talking about." He just looks me down the eye and goes, "Who said a hundred is the most you can get?" At that age, I literally had no clue what he was talking about.

我不知道你在说什么。”他只是低头看着我，然后说道：“谁说最多只能得到一百？”在那个年纪，我根本不知道他在说什么。

And he had to reframe it for me in the moment around like, "Well, was there extra credit?

他必须立即为我重新构建它，就像，“嗯，有额外的功劳吗？

Can you just write your own problems to challenge yourself more?

你能只写自己的问题来挑战自己吗？

Could you have given yourself another test?

你能给自己再做一次测试吗？

And maybe the teacher won't give you credit, but you give yourself credit for doing additional work."

也许老师不会给你学分，但你会因为做了额外的工作而给自己加分。”

Kevin Yien: I think I carry that theme forward where there's this weird transition we all go through from childhood to adulthood where we no longer receive homework, we're responsible for defining the work that we do.

凯文·伊恩（Kevin Yien）：我想我会继续这个主题，我们从童年到成年都会经历这种奇怪的转变，我们不再收到家庭作业，我们负责定义我们所做的工作。

And when you do that, if all you do is the minimum of what defined the 100% of what your job requires, you'll never grow.

当你这样做时，如果你所做的只是定义你的工作 100% 要求的最低限度，那么你永远不会成长。

And so it's up to you to actually find what is the additional 3%?

那么这额外的 3% 到底是多少，就由你来实际找出来吧？

There's always three more percent.

总是还有百分之三。

So that's my dad's lesson.

这就是我父亲的教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kevin, you're blowing my mind.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：凯文，你让我大吃一惊。

There's so many great stories, you're just full of them.

精彩的故事太多了，你已经被它们填满了。

And I feel like this lesson also applies really well to product and building product and founding companies.

我觉得这个教训也非常适用于产品、构建产品和创办公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just pushing further than people expect and making it a lot more delightful than the minimum bar.

Lenny Rachitsky：只是比人们预期的更进一步，并且比最低标准更令人愉快。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question, speaking of things that maybe people don't expect and may not understand is possible, looking at you, nobody would've guessed that you're a competitive eater at some point in your life.

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，说到人们可能没有想到、可能无法理解的事情是可能的，看着你，没有人会猜到你在生命中的某个时刻是一个竞争性的食者。

As a final question, tell us about this part of your life.

作为最后一个问题，请告诉我们您生活的这一部分。

What did you eat?

你吃了什么？

How does this work?

这是如何运作的？

How far did you get in this path?

你在这条路上走了多远？

Kevin Yien: It's probably misleading to say that I was a true competitive eater.

Kevin Yien：说我是一个真正的竞争性食者可能会产生误导。

I wasn't on the circuit with a...

我当时并没有在赛道上...

I forget his name, but Johnny Chestnut.

我忘记了他的名字，但是约翰尼·切斯特纳特。

Kevin Yien: Back in the day, that's like the OG competitive eater on the hotdog circuit, I guess.

Kevin Yien：我想，在过去，这就像热狗赛道上的 OG 竞技吃者。

Kevin Yien: For me it was more eating challenges.

Kevin Yien：对我来说，更多的是饮食方面的挑战。

And so whenever I would travel, I would find the local eating challenge, whether it was time-based, volume-based, something else, and just try to see what I could push my body to do.

因此，每当我旅行时，我都会找到当地的饮食挑战，无论是基于时间的、基于量的还是其他的东西，然后尝试看看我可以推动我的身体做什么。

I was blessed with a great metabolism, so I never really had to worry too much about anything else.

我很幸运拥有良好的新陈代谢，所以我从来不用担心太多其他事情。

And the origin, the first moment of this was when I was 14, my sister was going to college in Minnesota and there's this steakhouse up there called Manny's, which is where the Vikings Frontline goes to after every game.

事情的起源是在我 14 岁的时候，我姐姐要去明尼苏达州上大学，那里有一家叫做 Manny's 的牛排馆，维京人前线队每场比赛结束后都会去那里。

And they have this ridiculous 97 ounce order house.

他们有这个荒谬的 97 盎司订单。

I don't know how many pounds that is, but it's too much meat for a human to consume.

我不知道那是多少磅，但对于人类来说，这肉太多了。

Kevin Yien: 97 ounces, yeah.

Kevin Yien：97 盎司，是的。

And so I sit down, I order it thinking, "This is going to be great." They put it in front of me, it's a monster.

于是我坐下来点菜，心里想：“这会很棒。”他们把它放在我面前，它是一个怪物。

You have to eat in under an hour.

你必须在一个小时内吃饭。

And so 45 minutes into it, I'm halfway through and about to die.

45 分钟后，我已经完成一半了，快要死了。

And the catch is, if you finish it in under an hour, you get it for free.

问题是，如果你在一小时内完成它，你就可以免费获得它。

And so my dad again leans in and goes, "You can't afford not to finish this."

于是我爸爸再次靠过来说道：“你不能不完成这件事。”

Kevin Yien: And so, "Message received, sir." Hunker down.

Kevin Yien：所以，“收到消息，先生。”蹲下来。

I plowed the other half in 15 minutes.

我用了 15 分钟就犁了另一半。

I then slept for I think three days afterwards.

然后我想三天后就睡了。

But after that I was like, "Oh my God, if I could do that, what else could I do?" And so, carried for, I don't know, nearly a decade of trying to do these interesting challenges.

但在那之后我就想，“天哪，如果我能做到这一点，我还能做什么？”因此，我不知道，近十年来我一直在尝试完成这些有趣的挑战。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I don't know how that's physically possible, but clearly you did it.

我不知道这在物理上是如何可能的，但显然你做到了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kevin, this has been wonderful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：凯文，这太棒了。

I think there's so many lessons here for people in so many ways, life and work and parenting.

我认为这里可以为人们在很多方面提供很多教训，包括生活、工作和育儿。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to follow you and learn more from you over time?

最后两个问题，如果人们想关注您并向您了解更多信息，他们可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Kevin Yien: I'm on Twitter, just @kevinyien.

Kevin Yien：我在 Twitter 上，只是@kevinyien。

Technically, I'm on LinkedIn.

从技术上讲，我在 LinkedIn 上。

I don't post over there.

我不在那里发帖。

I probably should.

我也许应该。

I hear it's very good.

我听说这很好。

But that's where you can find me.

但那就是你可以找到我的地方。

Also, my website.

还有我的网站。

I don't write that often, and I don't have an RSS feed, which has always been on my backlog, and I'm always too lazy to do.

我不常写东西，也没有 RSS feed，这一直是我积压的，而且我总是懒得做。

But one day I will add it.

但有一天我会添加它。

Kevin Yien: One quick note, I'll actually make on websites.

Kevin Yien：我实际上会在网站上做一个简短的说明。

So on one hand, I love all the different website builders that exist.

因此，一方面，我喜欢现有的所有不同的网站构建器。

It's amazing what we've enabled anyone to be able to do.

令人惊奇的是我们让任何人都能够做到这一点。

There is something really special about having your corner of the internet that you built sort of hand by hand, line by line.

拥有自己亲手、逐行构建的互联网角落确实很特别。

And so my website is, it's a GitHub page.

我的网站是一个 GitHub 页面。

It's hosts on GitHub pages, but it's just raw HTML, CSS, nothing fancy.

它托管在 GitHub 页面上，但只是原始的 HTML、CSS，没什么花哨的。

I get so much joy every year just doing a slight tweak or cleaning of it.

每年我只要稍微调整或清理它就会得到很多快乐。

And so I really do recommend that for anyone with the curiosity and the desire to buy your domain, even if you're never going to write anything on it, you're never going to share it out, just own a little piece of the internet.

因此，我确实建议，对于任何有好奇心并渴望购买您的域名的人，即使您永远不会在上面写任何东西，也永远不会分享它，而只是拥有互联网的一小部分。

It feels good.

感觉很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I didn't know that about your website.

我不知道你的网站。

And I could see it now as I go there.

现在当我去那里时我就能看到它。

It's .html, which you don't see as much anymore.

它是 .html，但您不再经常看到它了。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：然后……

Yeah, can listeners be useful to you.

是的，听众对你有用吗？

Kevin Yien: This is going to sound trite, and it has nothing to do with product necessarily, just be kind.

Kevin Yien：这听起来很陈词滥调，而且与产品无关，只是友善一点。

Make for a nicer world, right?

创造一个更美好的世界，对吗？

Say thank you a little bit more often.

多说一点谢谢。

Hold the door open a little more often.

多开门一点。

Wave if you cut someone off in a car.

如果你在车里抢断了某人，请挥手示意。

I think there is a temptation and incentive structure to create conflict intention.

我认为存在产生冲突意图的诱惑和激励结构。

And in most cases, the world would just benefit from a little bit more kindness.

在大多数情况下，世界只会从多一点善意中受益。

Lenny Rachitsky: What an incredibly beautiful way its ended.

Lenny Rachitsky：它的结束方式真是令人难以置信的美丽。

Kevin, this was so much fun.

凯文，这太有趣了。

I'm so glad we did this.

我很高兴我们做到了这一点。

Thank you so much for coming on.

非常感谢您的光临。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。