'Taxi mafias, cash vaults & 100% MoM growth: The story of SEA’s biggest startup | Kevin Aluwi (Gojek)'
Kevin Aluwi: In the early days of Gojek, there was a lot of resistance to our services.
Kevin Aluwi：在 Gojek 的早期，我们的服务遇到了很多阻力。
The most common form of that resistance in the early days was actually by motorcycle taxi mafia.
早期最常见的抵抗形式实际上是摩托车出租车黑手党。
So you would have these areas that are essentially controlled through violence by specific area mafia.
因此，这些地区基本上是由特定地区黑手党通过暴力控制的。
And when we start having drivers pick up orders and pick up passengers, these people would actually physically assault our drivers.
当我们开始让司机接订单并接乘客时，这些人实际上会对我们的司机进行身体攻击。
We've had everything from bricks thrown at our drivers to knives and machetes being brandished at them, and I think it would've been easy for us to say like, "Hey, they're all contractors.
我们遇到过各种各样的事情，从向司机扔砖头到向他们挥舞刀子和砍刀，我认为我们很容易说，“嘿，他们都是承包商。
They're third parties, let them kind of just sort it out." But instead, we actually hired private security.
他们是第三方，让他们来解决这个问题。”但相反，我们实际上聘请了私人保安。
So we actually work with private security companies to help our drivers in those situations, to help kind of extract them out of these sticky situations.
因此，我们实际上与私人保安公司合作，在这些情况下帮助我们的司机，帮助他们摆脱这些棘手的情况。
And so we actually ran a fairly big private security operation for a fairly long time.
因此，我们实际上在相当长的一段时间内运营了相当大的私人保安业务。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。
Today my guest is Kevin Aluwi.
今天我的嘉宾是凯文·阿卢维。
Kevin is the co-founder and former CEO of a company called Gojek, which I've always been fascinated by.
Kevin 是一家名为 Gojek 的公司的联合创始人兼前首席执行官，我一直对这家公司很着迷。
You may recall a former guest Crystal Widjaja, who was head of growth at Gojek, and I've always wanted to get more of the story.
您可能还记得一位前嘉宾 Crystal Widjaja，她是 Gojek 的增长主管，我一直想了解更多故事。
Gojek is infamous for their scrappiness, their unique approach to ops and growth, and as being one of the first and most successful super apps in the world.
Gojek 因其斗志旺盛、独特的运营和增长方式而臭名昭著，并且是世界上最早也是最成功的超级应用程序之一。
They've also long been maybe the biggest startup in Indonesia and all of Southeast Asia.
他们长期以来也可能是印度尼西亚和整个东南亚最大的初创公司。
Kevin and the story of Gojek have a lot to teach founders in the US and all over the world, and so I was really excited to sit down with Kevin to dig into the story, he did not disappoint.
Kevin 和 Gojek 的故事对美国和世界各地的创始人有很多启发，所以我很高兴能与 Kevin 坐下来深入研究这个故事，他没有让人失望。
Lenny: You'll hear all kinds of wild stories about them having to hire a private security team to protect their drivers, having to build their own cash distribution centers to pay their drivers, plus how they won in large part thanks to their early investment in brand, why it's important to do the hard things as a startup.
莱尼：你会听到各种疯狂的故事，比如他们必须聘请私人保安团队来保护他们的司机，必须建立自己的现金分配中心来支付司机的工资，以及他们如何赢得胜利在很大程度上要归功于他们对品牌的早期投资，为什么作为一家初创公司做困难的事情很重要。
Also, why super apps are surprisingly overrated and much more.
此外，为什么超级应用程序被高估了，等等。
Enjoy this episode with Kevin Aluwi after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与凯文·阿鲁维一起欣赏这一集。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.
莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。
You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together, and how can I help your team run smoother and be more efficient?
您听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及我如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效？
I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.
我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。
I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.
我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。
More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates, and within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.
最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的整篇文章，在这篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部用来运行产品团队的模板，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 内完成的。
Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.
Lenny：如果您团队的工作分散在不同的文档、电子表格和一堆工作流程工具中，那么您就需要 Coda。
Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.
Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。
Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.
Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。
Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.
利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。
Sign up today at coda.io/lenny and get a thousand dollars startup credit on your first statement.
立即在 coda.io/lenny 上注册，并在您的第一份声明中获得一千美元的启动信用。
That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000.
注册 coda.io/lenny 即可获得 1,000 美元的启动资金。
Coda.io/lenny.
Coda.io/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by rows.com, the world runs on spreadsheets.
莱尼：这一集是由 rows.com 为您带来的，世界是在电子表格上运行的。
You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet right now, but the spreadsheet product you're using today was designed decades ago, and it shows.
您现在可能打开了一个包含电子表格的选项卡，但您今天使用的电子表格产品是几十年前设计的，并且它显示了这一点。
They live in silos away from your business data.
它们位于远离您的业务数据的孤岛中。
They weren't made to be used on a phone.
它们不是为在手机上使用而设计的。
And if you want to do even the simplest automation, you have to figure out complex scripts that are nightmare to maintain.
如果您想做最简单的自动化，您就必须找出维护起来非常困难的复杂脚本。
Rows is different.
行数不同。
It combines a modern spreadsheet editor, data integrations with APIs and your business tools and a slick sharing experience that turns any spreadsheet into a beautiful interactive website that you'll be proud to share.
它结合了现代电子表格编辑器、与 API 和业务工具的数据集成以及流畅的共享体验，可将任何电子表格变成一个精美的交互式网站，您将自豪地分享。
Lenny: If you're writing a report on a growth experiment, you can use Rows to do your analysis on data straight from BigQuery or Snowflake.
Lenny：如果您正在编写有关增长实验的报告，则可以使用 Rows 直接对来自 BigQuery 或 Snowflake 的数据进行分析。
If you're deep diving on marketing, you can import reports straight from Google Analytics, Facebook ads, or Twitter.
如果您深入研究营销，可以直接从 Google Analytics、Facebook 广告或 Twitter 导入报告。
Or if you're working with sales, you can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce or HubSpot directly into Rows.
或者，如果您正在与销售人员合作，则可以将 Stripe、Salesforce 或 HubSpot 直接插入到 Rows 中。
And when you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read and embed charts, tables and calculators into Notion, Confluence or anywhere on the web.
完成后，您可以将您的工作作为易于阅读的精美电子表格进行共享，并将图表、表格和计算器嵌入到 Notion、Confluence 或网络上的任何位置。
I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rose.
我已经将一些我最喜欢的电子表格模板移至 Rose。
Go to rows.com/lenny to check them out.
请访问 rows.com/lenny 查看它们。
That's rows.com/lenny.
这是 rows.com/lenny。
Lenny: Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：凯文，欢迎来到播客。
Kevin Aluwi: Thank you.
凯文·阿鲁维：谢谢。
Thanks for having me, Lenny.
谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。
We've finally made it happen after a few weeks or months of going back and forth.
经过几周或几个月的反复讨论，我们终于实现了这一目标。
Lenny: Yeah, I'm really excited to finally meet you and to dig into a bunch of stuff.
莱尼：是的，我真的很高兴终于见到你并深入研究了很多东西。
I think this is going to be a really unique episode.
我认为这将是一个非常独特的插曲。
I don't often have founders on the podcast, especially founders of companies that are not based in the US.
我的播客上不经常有创始人，尤其是总部不在美国的公司的创始人。
In this case, Indonesia, Crystal Widjaja, who is on this podcast previously.
在本例中，印度尼西亚的 Crystal Widjaja 曾参与过该播客。
One of my favorite guests is just like "Lenny, you got to get Kevin on your podcast." And so here we are.
我最喜欢的一位嘉宾就像“莱尼，你必须让凯文加入你的播客。”我们就到这里了。
Kevin Aluwi: I'm glad to be in a small group of category of people that you invite.
Kevin Aluwi：我很高兴成为您邀请的一小群人中的一员。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I'm a huge fan of what you do.
我非常喜欢你所做的事情。
Lenny: Thanks, man, I really appreciate that.
莱尼：谢谢，伙计，我真的很感激。
And just redirect to you, you are the co-founder of a company called Gojek.
重定向到您，您是一家名为 Gojek 的公司的联合创始人。
Many people listening have never heard of Gojek, especially people in the US.
许多听众从未听说过 Gojek，尤其是美国人。
So just to start, can you just describe what is Gojek, what do y'all do?
首先，您能描述一下 Gojek 是什么吗？你们都是做什么的？
And then also I think more interestingly is just the scale of I think people in the US, their mind will blow once they hear the scale you've reached with this company.
然后我认为更有趣的是我认为美国人的规模，一旦他们听到这家公司所达到的规模，他们就会大吃一惊。
They probably hadn't heard of it.
他们可能没有听说过。
Kevin Aluwi: So Gojek started as a motorcycle taxi based service.
Kevin Aluwi：Gojek 最初是提供摩托车出租车服务。
So it's a kind of uniquely Indonesian things where we have millions of motorcycle taxi drivers in all of the urban centers in Indonesia.
因此，这是一种独特的印度尼西亚事物，在印度尼西亚的所有城市中心都有数百万摩托车出租车司机。
And so we started with a very local problem and the first product was a on-demand super app, if you will, where you could ask someone on a motorcycle to give you a ride, send a package for you or buy something and deliver it to you.
因此，我们从一个非常本地化的问题开始，第一个产品是一个按需超级应用程序，如果你愿意的话，你可以在其中要求摩托车上的人载你一程，为你寄包裹或购买东西并将其交付给你。
This then evolved over the years into a more general on demand consumer super app that also included car drivers and other services ranging from the ones mentioned to grocery deliveries and payments and financial services.
多年来，它发展成为一个更通用的按需消费者超级应用程序，其中还包括汽车司机和其他服务，从提到的服务到杂货配送、支付和金融服务。
Kevin Aluwi: And today we took the company public about a year and a half ago after we merged with Indonesia's top e-commerce platform.
Kevin Aluwi：大约一年半前，我们与印度尼西亚顶级电子商务平台合并后，今天我们将公司上市。
And we've managed to also expand outside of just Indonesia, where today we have about 2.7 million drivers across Southeast Asia.
我们还成功将业务扩展到印度尼西亚以外的地区，目前我们在东南亚拥有约 270 万司机。
We've completed about 3 billion orders last year, so that's 3 billion orders.
去年我们完成了大约 30 亿个订单，所以就是 30 亿个订单。
So the scale of our region is often under underappreciated, where we also have about 15 million merchants doing general e-commerce, but also restaurants on our food delivery service.
因此，我们地区的规模常常被低估，这里还有大约 1500 万商家从事一般电子商务，而且还有提供食品配送服务的餐厅。
And on that IPO, we're pretty proud to say that it was Indonesia's largest IPO of all time, where we raised over a billion dollars at something like 27, 28 billion dollars in terms of valuation.
对于那次 IPO，我们非常自豪地说，这是印度尼西亚有史以来规模最大的 IPO，我们筹集了超过 10 亿美元，估值约为 27、280 亿美元。
Lenny: And these numbers you shared 2.7 million drivers, 30 billion orders,
莱尼：你分享的这些数字有 270 万司机、300 亿个订单，
Lenny: 3 billion.
莱尼：30亿。
How would that compare to an Uber or Lyft?
与 Uber 或 Lyft 相比如何？
Kevin Aluwi: I don't know what their latest numbers are, but just in terms of the numbers of people and the number of activity, I would place our scale among the largest US companies.
Kevin Aluwi：我不知道他们的最新数据是多少，但仅就人员数量和活动数量而言，我认为我们的规模属于美国最大的公司之一。
Lenny: That's pretty wild that there's this company out there that a lot of people didn't know about that is basically of the scale of Uber and Lyft.
莱尼：这真是太疯狂了，竟然有一家公司，很多人都不知道，它的规模基本上相当于 Uber 和 Lyft。
Kevin Aluwi: In terms of volume, I would say that we're up there with Uber globally and definitely larger than Lyft.
Kevin Aluwi：就数量而言，我想说我们在全球范围内与 Uber 不相上下，而且绝对比 Lyft 还要大。
I don't remember how many drivers are in the US, but we definitely have more drivers in the region than all of America.
我不记得美国有多少司机，但我们该地区的司机肯定比整个美国还要多。
Lenny: Just to kind of check this check box, you said it was a super app.
莱尼：只是为了选中这个复选框，你说这是一个超级应用程序。
What are all the things that Gojek does?
Gojek 做了哪些事情？
Just whatever you want to share, all the things that you can do.
无论您想分享什么，您可以做的所有事情。
Kevin Aluwi: From the point when we had the most services, we had everything from ride hailing to package delivery to food delivery, to grocery deliveries.
Kevin Aluwi：从我们提供最多服务的那一刻起，我们就提供了从叫车到包裹递送、食品递送和杂货递送的一切服务。
We had moving services on trucks and vans.
我们提供卡车和货车搬家服务。
We had on demand massages, cleaning services.
我们提供按需按摩、清洁服务。
You could get your hair done on Gojek, you could order movie tickets, you could get a loan, you could pay for things.
你可以在 Gojek 上做头发，你可以订购电影票，你可以获得贷款，你可以支付费用。
I think at our peak we had something like near 30 different services all in one app.
我认为在我们的巅峰时期，我们在一个应用程序中提供了近 30 种不同的服务。
Lenny: I think it's like you're officially a super app if your founder can't even remember all the things that you do right now.
莱尼：我认为，如果你的创始人甚至不记得你现在所做的所有事情，那么你就正式成为了一个超级应用程序。
Kevin Aluwi: Yeah, definitely.
凯文·阿鲁维：是的，当然。
I would challenge anyone within the company to be able to name all of our services that we've ever had on the app because it was pretty wild at one point.
我会向公司内的任何人提出挑战，要求他们能够说出我们在该应用程序上使用过的所有服务，因为它曾经一度非常疯狂。
And I'd love to talk a little bit about my thoughts on super apps at some point during the session because I definitely have some mixed views over it as a product strategy as we've gone through that whole cycle.
我很乐意在会议期间的某个时候谈谈我对超级应用程序的想法，因为当我们经历整个周期时，我肯定对它作为产品策略有一些不同的看法。
Lenny: It might be actually a good time just to jump into it.
莱尼：这实际上可能是一个投入其中的好时机。
I know that I was actually saving that for later, but this might be a good time.
我知道我实际上是在留着以后再做，但这可能是个好时机。
And part of the reason I think this is really interesting is if you open up Uber these days, it's like 40 things that they're offering now.
我认为这真的很有趣的部分原因是，如果你现在开放 Uber，他们现在提供的东西就像 40 种。
Elon at Twitter is talking about turning Twitter into a super app like payments, communication, messaging, all these things.
Twitter 的埃隆 (Elon) 正在谈论将 Twitter 变成一个超级应用程序，如支付、通信、消息传递等。
So I think it's a really interesting trend that continues to pop up here in the US and I would absolutely love to hear your perspective on super apps.
所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的趋势，在美国继续出现，我非常想听听您对超级应用程序的看法。
Kevin Aluwi: Okay, I'm going to come off a little strong on this, but I am kind of annoyed at how much it's being mentioned these days.
凯文·阿鲁维：好吧，我会对此表现得有点强硬，但我对这些天被提及的次数感到有点恼火。
It's really popular in VC-consultant-analyst circles because it sounds really great on a strategy deck because all of the things that are really appealing, we'll talk about lower customer acquisition costs, higher attach rates to different products, talk about higher retention across different services, the ease of cross-selling and upselling.
它在风险投资顾问分析师圈子里非常受欢迎，因为它在战略上听起来真的很棒，因为所有真正有吸引力的事情，我们都会谈论更低的客户获取成本，更高的不同产品的附加率，谈论不同服务的更高保留率，交叉销售和追加销售的便利性。
All of these things sound great, but in reality, a lot of those benefits don't pan out.
所有这些听起来都很棒，但实际上，其中很多好处并没有实现。
And one probably really good example that I like to reference is that I remember one of our products was mobile phone top up and recharge.
我喜欢引用的一个可能非常好的例子是，我记得我们的产品之一是手机充值和充电。
In Southeast Asia, a majority of people are on prepaid plans instead of postpaid plans.
在东南亚，大多数人都使用预付费计划而不是后付费计划。
So everyone basically buys their minutes and their data plans upfront in the beginning of the week or the beginning of the month.
因此，每个人基本上都会在本周初或月初提前购买他们的分钟数和数据计划。
Kevin Aluwi: So we had a product which was a mobile top-up product.
Kevin Aluwi：所以我们有一个产品是移动充值产品。
And so the reason I mentioned this specific product as a really illustrative point on super apps is that it's a product that 95% plus of our customers need because they're all on prepaid plans.
因此，我之所以提到这个特定产品作为超级应用程序的一个真正说明点，是因为我们 95% 以上的客户都需要它，因为他们都使用预付费计划。
So it's a very relevant product.
所以这是一个非常相关的产品。
And we had our UX research research team actually look into why the engagement in the product wasn't as high as we thought it should be.
我们让用户体验研究团队实际调查了为什么产品的参与度没有我们想象的那么高。
So one of the questions that our URX team asked our customers was like, "Hey, do you know that you could top up your mobile minutes and by data on the Gojek app?" And only about 40% of our customers, like 30 or 40% of our customers knew that this product existed.
因此，我们的 URX 团队向客户提出的问题之一是：“嘿，您知道可以通过 Gojek 应用程序上的数据来充值您的移动通话时间吗？”只有大约 40% 的客户，比如 30% 或 40% 的客户知道这个产品的存在。
And that completely blew our minds because one, it's a product that is relevant for all of our customers.
这完全让我们大吃一惊，因为它是一款与我们所有客户相关的产品。
Kevin Aluwi: Two, it was literally there on one of the six buttons on the homepage.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：两个，它实际上就在主页的六个按钮之一上。
And I think the insight that we got here was that there kind of needs to be a unifying concept across all of your services within the app for your users to be able to think about your product in a sensible way.
我认为我们在这里得到的见解是，应用程序中的所有服务需要有一个统一的概念，以便用户能够以合理的方式思考您的产品。
And for us, the way that our customers thought about us was that they thought about the driver.
对于我们来说，客户对我们的看法就像他们对司机的看法一样。
And so when we went from ride hailing to package delivery to food delivery, to grocery delivery, customers really understood that.
因此，当我们从打车到包裹递送、食品递送、杂货递送时，客户真正理解了这一点。
And we didn't have to sell this idea to our customers that you had all of these services under one app because they thought about the Gojek driver.
我们不必向客户推销这样的想法：您可以在一个应用程序下获得所有这些服务，因为他们考虑了 Gojek 驱动程序。
That made sense.
这是有道理的。
You can easily cross sell somebody from a ride hailing customer to a grocery customer or a food delivery customer because they understood the unifying factor there being the driver.
您可以轻松地对某人进行交叉销售，从叫车客户到杂货店客户或食品配送客户，因为他们了解司机的统一因素。
Kevin Aluwi: But then when you start doing other things that don't have that unifying factor in terms of the concept that a customer has when they think about your service, it starts breaking down.
凯文·阿卢维：但是当你开始做其他事情时，这些事情在客户考虑你的服务时所拥有的概念方面没有统一因素，它就开始崩溃。
So one other fun UXR insight here was when we launched massage services.
因此，另一个有趣的 UXR 见解是我们推出按摩服务时。
So we had at one point though we've shut it down a few years after, we had massage services where you can order a masseuse to come to your place.
因此，尽管我们在几年后将其关闭，但我们曾经一度提供按摩服务，您可以订购按摩师到您的地方。
And a question that many of our customers asked was that, "oh, is the driver going to come into my house and give me a massage?" And for us, that was insane.
我们的许多顾客问的一个问题是，“哦，司机会进我家给我按摩吗？”对我们来说，这太疯狂了。
Of course not, our drivers are not trained masseuses, but that was the question that people asked because they thought like, "oh, this app is an app for these driver related services, so if there was a massage service, I'm assuming it's that same man who's going to give me a massage."
当然不是，我们的司机不是受过训练的按摩师，但这就是人们问的问题，因为他们想，“哦，这个应用程序是这些司机相关服务的应用程序，所以如果有按摩服务，我假设是同一个人会给我按摩。”
Kevin Aluwi: And so I think this kind of illustrates the importance of having these unifying concepts that are easy for customers to think about the multiple different services.
Kevin Aluwi：所以我认为这说明了拥有这些统一概念的重要性，这些概念很容易让客户思考多种不同的服务。
It's not as simple as just saying, oh, we have a lot of engagement, we have a lot of eyeballs at a service.
这并不只是说，哦，我们有很多参与度，我们的服务吸引了很多眼球那么简单。
And then you have a super app that makes sense for customers.
然后你就拥有了一个对客户有意义的超级应用程序。
And so that whole nirvana of lower CAC, higher retention that are all on these great strategy decks often don't pan out because you kind of have to then resell this idea of like, oh, this is another service and that you can use.
因此，这些出色的战略组合中的较低 CAC、较高留存率的涅槃往往不会成功，因为你必须转售这个想法，比如，哦，这是另一项你可以使用的服务。
And that's a bit of investment that you have to actually put in terms of advertising and customer education that increases those customer acquisition costs.
这是你必须在广告和客户教育方面实际投入的一点投资，这会增加客户获取成本。
Kevin Aluwi: And it also leads to design constraints because there's only so many ways you can display a whole bunch of different services that actually have little to do with each other, which is why when you see super apps today, it's kind of like this giant menu or this giant grid which does limit the design decisions that you can make, which is unfortunate because if you actually, I think it's an unsolved problem at this point.
Kevin Aluwi：这也会导致设计限制，因为只有这么多的方法可以显示一大堆不同的服务，而这些服务实际上彼此之间没有什么关系，这就是为什么当你今天看到超级应用程序时，它有点像这个巨大的菜单或这个巨大的网格，它确实限制了你可以做出的设计决策，这是不幸的，因为如果你真的这么做，我认为这是一个尚未解决的问题。
Lenny: It's hilarious story about the massage product.
莱尼：这是一个关于按摩产品的搞笑故事。
Sounds like a lot of startups are going to have some issues scaling to new products and trying to become a super app.
听起来很多初创公司在扩展到新产品并试图成为超级应用程序时都会遇到一些问题。
I want to shift a little bit and talk about brand.
我想稍微转移一下话题，谈谈品牌。
I did a little research on you ahead of this chat.
在这次谈话之前我对你做了一些研究。
I watched your Marshall graduation and speech and a few other interviews you did, and something that came out of your previous writing and talks is just how much you care about brand and how much value you put into brand.
我看了你的马歇尔毕业典礼和演讲，以及你所做的其他一些采访，从你之前的写作和演讲中可以看出你对品牌的关心程度以及你为品牌投入的价值。
And that you just have a lot of opinions about the importance of brand.
你对品牌的重要性有很多看法。
And to me and to most people, brand is this really squishy thing and it's hard to know what exactly to do to build your brand, when to prioritize it, how to prioritize it amongst other things you're doing, especially early on.
对我和大多数人来说，品牌是一个非常脆弱的东西，很难知道到底要做什么来建立你的品牌，何时优先考虑它，如何在你正在做的其他事情中优先考虑它，尤其是在早期。
So I'd love to hear your advice for founders that are listening and just like, what should I actually do around brand?
所以我很想听听您对正在倾听的创始人的建议，就像我应该围绕品牌做什么？
What's your advice for how to tactically do something about brand and also just why do you think it's so important?
对于如何从战术上对品牌做一些事情，你有什么建议？为什么你认为它如此重要？
Kevin Aluwi: I do agree with you that it is kind of this squishy thing that most people see as an afterthought, may be because it is kind of this squishy thing that it's hard to define, but I'm a very big believer that the two most important things in a consumer business are product and brand in that order.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：我确实同意你的观点，大多数人认为这是一种事后才想到的东西，可能是因为它是一种很难定义的东西，但我非常相信消费业务中最重要的两个事情是产品和品牌。
And I don't think I need to sell the idea, especially to your audience.
我认为我不需要推销这个想法，尤其是向你们的观众。
That product is absolutely critical and probably the most important.
该产品绝对至关重要，而且可能是最重要的。
But brand as an afterthought is definitely one of the areas where I think there's a giant missed opportunity for consumer tech businesses.
但我认为，品牌作为事后的想法绝对是消费科技企业错失巨大机会的领域之一。
And I get why we opened the session by talking about the size of the business to get an appreciation of the scale for audience members who might be unfamiliar with us or with the region.
我明白为什么我们通过谈论业务规模来开始会议，以便让可能不熟悉我们或该地区的观众了解规模。
Kevin Aluwi: But I wish I did have to start there because we actually started as a very scrappy company where we were by far the underfunded player and without brand.
凯文·阿鲁维：但我希望我必须从那里开始，因为我们实际上是一家非常斗志旺盛的公司，迄今为止我们是资金不足且没有品牌的公司。
We probably would've never gotten to escape velocity beyond that scrappy stage, we've maintained our leadership in Indonesia through a lot of the things that we actually did on the brand side to give you a sense of how scrappy we had to be in competition.
我们可能永远无法逃脱超越那个斗志旺盛的阶段的速度，我们通过我们在品牌方面实际做的许多事情来保持我们在印度尼西亚的领导地位，让你感觉到我们在竞争中必须有多么斗志旺盛。
Kevin Aluwi: For the first six months after launching our app, we had only raised about $2 million and our regional competitor had already raised 250.
Kevin Aluwi：在推出我们的应用程序后的前六个月，我们只筹集了约 200 万美元，而我们的区域竞争对手已经筹集了 250 美元。
So they had literally more than a hundred times more capital than we have.
所以他们的资本实际上是我们的一百多倍。
So it's easy to talk about what we built as this kind of giant business, but we came from a place where we were seriously underfunded.
因此，谈论我们建立的这种巨型企业很容易，但我们来自一个资金严重不足的地方。
And I think a big reason why we survived was that we built a great brand for our consumers and for our drivers and for our merchants.
我认为我们生存下来的一个重要原因是我们为消费者、司机和商家建立了一个伟大的品牌。
And I think that great brands create associations in their customer's minds that transcend the typically transactional or utilitarian one that most people have with businesses and they become part of one's identity.
我认为，伟大的品牌会在客户心中建立起一种超越大多数人与企业之间典型的交易性或功利性的联系，并成为一个人身份的一部分。
Kevin Aluwi: I think some of the best-in-class examples of these are probably all the Apple fanboys and fangirls, Nike sneakerheads, for these individuals, the brand becomes a really big part of their identity and their loyalty towards the products of the company go beyond a relationship that can easily be swayed just through discounts or other more features that other competitors might have.
Kevin Aluwi：我认为其中一些最好的例子可能是所有苹果迷、耐克运动鞋迷，对于这些人来说，品牌成为他们身份的重要组成部分，他们对公司产品的忠诚度超出了一种可以通过折扣或其他竞争对手可能拥有的其他更多功能轻易改变的关系。
And so I'm a really firm believer of how important this is because you can see it if you step out of the tech bubble for a second, you can see that there's so many great companies out there that really rely on the strength of their brand to build these fantastic businesses and to create great experiences for their customers.
因此，我坚信这一点的重要性，因为如果你走出科技泡沫一秒钟，你就会看到这一点，你会发现有很多伟大的公司真正依靠自己的品牌力量来建立这些出色的业务并为客户创造出色的体验。
And you ask, what are the things that one can do?
你问，一个人可以做哪些事情？
Kevin Aluwi: I think for us, we invested a lot in our brand across multiple areas.
Kevin Aluwi：我认为对我们来说，我们在多个领域为我们的品牌投入了大量资金。
And I think one specific area that I think is really important is that you create consistency across all customer touchpoints.
我认为一个非常重要的特定领域是在所有客户接触点之间建立一致性。
And so branding is not just cool logo, cool advertising, fun imagery, but it's really about the impression that a customer or user has with your product and with your business.
因此，品牌不仅仅是酷炫的徽标、酷炫的广告、有趣的图像，而是真正关乎客户或用户对您的产品和业务的印象。
So having that consistency across all customer touchpoints is really important.
因此，在所有客户接触点上保持一致性非常重要。
So how you write copy and advertising and in the app, how you've even designed the app, but we were the first company of scale to have ads that don't take ourselves too seriously.
所以你如何在应用程序中编写文案和广告，甚至如何设计应用程序，但我们是第一家没有把自己太当回事的广告的规模公司。
We make fun of ourselves, we make fun of our cultural observations of Indonesia.
我们取笑自己，我们取笑我们对印度尼西亚的文化观察。
And again, to just build this overall field that like, Hey, we get, we are part of the overall culture of Indonesia.
再说一次，为了建立这个整体领域，就像，嘿，我们明白，我们是印度尼西亚整体文化的一部分。
And I think even going beyond the more aesthetic or communication oriented investments, we also leaned into cultural artifacts in our product features to really build this brand that is part of day-to-day culture.
我认为，即使超越以审美或沟通为导向的投资，我们也在产品功能中融入了文化元素，以真正打造这个成为日常文化一部分的品牌。
Kevin Aluwi: One of my favorite cultural artifacts is that in Asia it's fairly common to send food as gifts to your loved ones or maybe people you're interested in dating.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：我最喜欢的文化文物之一是，在亚洲，将食物作为礼物送给您所爱的人或您有兴趣约会的人是相当普遍的。
So people would send over food as gifts to their romantic interests.
因此，人们会将食物作为礼物送给他们的恋人。
And so when we launched our food delivery service, a lot of people were actually using it for this, I'm going to send it to my boyfriend or my girlfriend or the person that I'm interested in dating.
因此，当我们推出送餐服务时，很多人实际上都在使用它，我会将其发送给我的男朋友或女朋友或我有兴趣约会的人。
And so it became this whole cultural phenomenon of sending go-food for these people and we kind of lean into it in our product feature where all of the other players in the market at the time basically only allowed you to deliver food to your home or your office, but we actually created a feature that allowed you to choose a delivery point that was far away from where you were.
因此，为这些人送外卖就成了整个文化现象，我们在产品功能中倾向于这种做法，当时市场上的所有其他参与者基本上只允许你将食物送到你的家或办公室，但我们实际上创建了一个功能，允许你选择一个远离你所在位置的送货点。
Kevin Aluwi: There was a lot of reasons why other companies didn't allow it at the time because it's like, oh, it might be used for fraud and stuff like that.
Kevin Aluwi：当时其他公司不允许这样做的原因有很多，因为它可能会被用于欺诈之类的事情。
But we leaned into it, we leaned into it and actually created features that allowed to put your pickup point far away from where your actual location was.
但我们深入研究了它，我们实际创建了一些功能，可以让您的接送点远离您的实际位置。
And then we just had fun with this whole idea of go-food dating.
然后我们就享受了美食约会的整个想法。
And so yes, it's kind of part of branding, but thinking about branding beyond just marketing communication but actually be as being relatable and being part of the culture and being sensitive of what that culture is, I think was something that we did really well in the early days that allowed us to continue maintaining leadership in spite of the fact that our competitors had more money, which meant that they could offer more discounts, they could offer more incentives to drivers, but we really kind of lean very hard into being not just a utilitarian commodity, which is what a lot of people would say is the nature of our business to some level of accuracy.
所以，是的，这是品牌的一部分，但考虑品牌不仅仅是营销传播，而是实际上是相关的，是文化的一部分，并对文化是什么很敏感，我认为我们在早期做得很好，这使我们能够继续保持领先地位，尽管我们的竞争对手有更多的钱，这意味着他们可以提供更多的折扣，他们可以为司机提供更多的激励，但我们真的非常努力地不仅仅是成为一种功利主义商品，这是在某种程度上，很多人会说的是我们业务的性质。
Lenny: So just to get even more concrete, one takeaway from what you just shared, which is interesting, is the first part of figuring out how to approach your brand is what's the personality of your product for you?
莱尼：更具体地说，从您刚才分享的内容中得出的一个有趣的结论是，弄清楚如何接近您的品牌的第一步是您的产品对您来说有何个性？
You said it was like we're just of the people, we're like you, we're here to help you, make your life easier.
你说我们就像普通人一样，我们就像你一样，我们来这里是为了帮助你，让你的生活更轻松。
And then that informs the copy, the messaging, be a little, I forget how you describe it, but just almost bad grammar and stuff just because it relates more to people and then some of these product launches that connect to that.
然后，这会影响文案、消息传递，有点，我忘了你是如何描述它的，但几乎是糟糕的语法和东西，只是因为它更多地与人相关，然后一些与此相关的产品发布。
So maybe if there's anything else you want to add there that'd be interesting.
因此，如果您想添加其他任何内容，也许会很有趣。
And then what's like, I don't know, one or two moments that most helped build the brand.
然后，我不知道，最有助于建立品牌的一两个时刻。
I know you're kind of famous for having helmets and jackets on the drivers that help spread the Gojek brand.
我知道你们因车手佩戴头盔和夹克而闻名，这有助于传播 Gojek 品牌。
Is there anything else that just like, wow, this was really effective to build this brand that ended up dominating Indonesia?
还有其他什么东西会让人觉得，哇，这对于打造这个最终统治印度尼西亚的品牌来说真的很有效吗？
Kevin Aluwi: The jackets and helmets piece I think is really, really important for two reasons.
Kevin Aluwi：我认为夹克和头盔部分非常非常重要，原因有两个。
One, the more obvious reason, which is that because they were just all over the streets of many cities in Indonesia, people were familiar with the imagery and the names, but I think it's also really important that people saw what was happening.
一是更明显的原因，因为它们遍布印度尼西亚许多城市的街道，人们熟悉这些图像和名称，但我认为人们看到正在发生的事情也非常重要。
So if we were like, I don't know, an airline and we branded a bunch of people on the streets with our brand, yeah, sure, that might help with brand recall and people might know about the name.
所以，如果我们就像，我不知道，一家航空公司，我们在街上给一群人贴上我们的品牌，是的，当然，这可能有助于品牌回忆，人们可能会知道这个名字。
But what was really powerful was that when people would be seeing these drivers with their jackets and helmets, they would be seeing passengers on the backseat as they were stuck in traffic.
但真正强大的是，当人们看到这些穿着夹克和头盔的司机时，他们会看到后座上的乘客，因为他们陷入了交通堵塞。
So I'm stuck in traffic and I'm seeing these people whiz past me with with this imagery on them, and immediately I get that association like, oh, I'm stuck in traffic, but I could be out there cutting through traffic on a motorcycle or you see them carrying packages or delivering food, and you immediately get like, oh, these are guys who can deliver food or deliver packages for me.
当我堵在车流中时，我看到这些人从我身边飞驰而过，身上带着这个图像，我立刻就产生了这样的联想，哦，我堵在车流里了，但我可能在外面骑着摩托车穿过车流，或者你看到他们搬运包裹或送食物，你立刻就会想，哦，这些人可以为我送食物或送包裹。
Kevin Aluwi: And so it was like this beautiful combination of one just having that imagery and having that visual everywhere as a reminder of the brand.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：这就像是一种美丽的结合，即拥有这样的图像，并且到处都有这样的视觉效果，以提醒人们品牌。
But more importantly, it was also a physical reminder of the service of what we do and of how we can help you.
但更重要的是，这也是对我们所做的服务以及我们如何为您提供帮助的实际提醒。
And so looking for these opportunities where again, customers can make that connection between the logo and the colors and the name with actually what the service is, I think are the opportunities that I would say people should look out for.
因此，寻找这些机会，客户可以在徽标、颜色和名称与实际服务之间建立联系，我认为这是人们应该留意的机会。
They're admittedly quite rare, which is why in my opinion, the laziest kind of branding tends to be the most popular.
诚然，它们非常罕见，这就是为什么在我看来，最懒惰的品牌往往是最受欢迎的。
Just put your name and your copy on a billboard or on a CPM or CPC campaign.
只需将您的姓名和副本放在广告牌或 CPM 或 CPC 广告系列上即可。
But there are these opportunities I think, on being able to reinforce the value proposition of your business in a way that is beyond just visual recall.
但我认为存在这些机会，能够以超越视觉记忆的方式强化您的业务的价值主张。
And I think that was why that specific anecdote is something I like to talk about because it was really one of those special things that reminded people on why we're here.
我认为这就是为什么我喜欢谈论这个特定的轶事，因为它确实是那些特别的事情之一，提醒人们我们为什么在这里。
Lenny: Yeah, I think you tweeted that it was one of the most important things you ever did as a company is decide to put these logos on the helmets and jackets.
莱尼：是的，我想你在推特上说，作为一家公司，决定将这些标志放在头盔和夹克上是你做过的最重要的事情之一。
Reminds me of Lyft's pink mustache, which went away, but felt like a really important way for them to differentiate.
让我想起了 Lyft 的粉红色小胡子，虽然它消失了，但感觉这是他们区分的一个非常重要的方式。
Lenny: You talked about how scrappy you've been, and I want to dig into that a little bit more.
莱尼：你谈到了你是多么斗志旺盛，我想进一步深入探讨这一点。
I think there's like US startup scrappy, and then there's like Gojek scrappy, and it'd be fun to hear maybe a story or two just to illustrate how ridiculously scrappy you were as a company early on, especially.
我认为有像美国初创公司的斗志旺盛，还有像 Gojek 的斗志旺盛，听一两个故事会很有趣，只是为了说明你作为一家公司早期是多么的斗志旺盛，尤其是这样。
Kevin Aluwi: One thing that we did in the early days that was absolutely crazy was that we were one of the pioneering companies, one of the pioneering technology companies in Indonesia and in Southeast Asia.
Kevin Aluwi：我们早期做的一件绝对疯狂的事情是，我们是先驱公司之一，是印度尼西亚和东南亚的先驱科技公司之一。
And so we came into a environment where a lot of the things that maybe companies or people in more developed economies take for granted, for example, having electronic or digital payments, that was something that actually didn't really exist that much when we first started.
因此，我们进入了一个环境，在这个环境中，许多发达经济体的公司或个人可能认为理所当然的事情，例如电子或数字支付，在我们刚开始时实际上并不存在。
And so we had a problem of actually trying to pay drivers because drivers every day we would be paying out incentives or just having customers pay with their credit cards or their store balance, and then we'd have a challenge and getting our drivers to actually be able to take that money out for their earnings.
因此，我们在实际尝试向司机付款时遇到了一个问题，因为我们每天都会向司机支付奖励金，或者只是让顾客用信用卡或商店余额付款，然后我们就会面临挑战，让我们的司机真正能够将这笔钱拿出来换取他们的收入。
And in the early days, we actually had cash booths.
在早期，我们实际上有现金亭。
So we actually had physical spaces with a vault and cash sitting in the vault where drivers can show up that, oh, this is my driver ID and this is the balance that I have with you.
所以我们实际上有一个带有金库的物理空间，金库里有现金，司机可以在那里出示，哦，这是我的司机 ID，这是我和你的余额。
Please give me the cash.
请给我现金。
Kevin Aluwi: And so we would have these actual physical locations where there would be lions of drivers essentially taking cash.
凯文·阿卢维：所以我们会有这些实际的物理位置，那里会有大量的司机基本上拿现金。
And we eventually figured this out of like, okay, we'll work with a bank and integrate with an ATM network and all that.
我们最终想通了这一点，好吧，我们将与银行合作并与 ATM 网络等进行集成。
But in the early days we just did it ourselves of building essentially a mini at ATM network, which I think even that sounds too fancy of what it was it.
但在早期，我们只是自己做，在 ATM 网络上构建一个迷你的网络，我认为这听起来太花哨了。
Because it was literally a booth with a vault with cash in it.
因为它实际上是一个带有金库的摊位，里面有现金。
And we had at the time already tens of thousands of drivers all across in Indonesia.
当时我们在印度尼西亚已有数万名司机。
Kevin Aluwi: Another scrappy story that actually Crystal reminded me of recently that we did was at the time there was a lot of fake driver apps out there because we didn't have all of the security investments that we eventually made, things like code obfuscation and better API security that wouldn't allow for these fraudulent driver apps, these basically third party driver apps to connect to our platform.
Kevin Aluwi：Crystal 最近让我想起了我们所做的另一个斗志旺盛的故事，当时有很多假冒的驱动程序应用程序，因为我们没有最终进行的所有安全投资，例如代码混淆和更好的 API 安全性，不允许这些欺诈性驱动程序应用程序（这些基本上是第三方驱动程序应用程序）连接到我们的平台。
So there were a lot of these drivers using these third party driver apps that were doing things that...
因此，有很多驱动程序使用这些第三方驱动程序应用程序，这些应用程序正在做一些事情......
So they were kind of doing unsavory things like stealing driver details, some of them even as bad as financial details so that they can then at some point drain driver funds.
因此，他们做了一些令人讨厌的事情，比如窃取司机的详细信息，其中一些甚至与财务详细信息一样糟糕，以便他们可以在某个时候耗尽司机的资金。
And the way that they did it, the way that they convinced drivers to actually use these apps was that they actually added some features that at the time we didn't allow.
他们这样做的方式，他们说服司机实际使用这些应用程序的方式是，他们实际上添加了一些当时我们不允许的功能。
So things like we wanted drivers to be conscious of what was happening on the app, and so we would actually make sure that drivers would push the accept order button.
因此，我们希望司机了解应用程序上发生的事情，因此我们实际上会确保司机按下接受订单按钮。
Kevin Aluwi: We made sure that that was the only way that drivers could accept orders, but this app had a functionality that would automatically accept orders as soon as they came in.
Kevin Aluwi：我们确保这是司机接受订单的唯一方式，但这个应用程序有一个功能，可以在订单进来后立即自动接受订单。
And so actually it was kind of this interesting situation where they were doing things that were fraudulent and were not safe for the integrity of the platform, but at the same time they were also providing some value to the people who were using them.
事实上，这是一种有趣的情况，他们在做欺诈性的事情，对平台的完整性不安全，但同时他们也为使用它们的人提供了一些价值。
And so at the time we had to make a decision of like, okay, we need to nip this in the bud and one way that we could have done it, that would've taken time was it really invest in a lot of the technical security aspects of it, but we didn't have the bandwidth to be able to do that.
所以当时我们必须做出一个决定，好吧，我们需要将其消灭在萌芽状态，我们可以做到这一点的一种方法是，这需要时间，因为它确实投资于它的许多技术安全方面，但我们没有足够的带宽来做到这一点。
Engineering and security talent is actually super scarce in Southeast Asia at the time, still is today, but at that time extremely scarce.
工程和安全人才实际上在当时的东南亚是超级稀缺的，今天仍然如此，但当时极其稀缺。
Kevin Aluwi: And so we ended up making the decision of actually copying those features.
Kevin Aluwi：所以我们最终决定实际复制这些功能。
So we actually saw all of these third party fraudulent apps and instead of building a whole system to prevent them from being built or preventing them from working on the platform, we just said, "Hey, let's take their top two or three features and let's build them into our app." And that actually significantly reduced the number of users on these third party apps just by having this mentality of you can't beat them, then join them.
因此，我们实际上看到了所有这些第三方欺诈性应用程序，我们没有构建一个完整的系统来阻止它们被构建或阻止它们在平台上运行，而是说，“嘿，让我们把它们最重要的两三个功能构建到我们的应用程序中。”实际上，仅仅因为你无法击败他们，然后加入他们，就大大减少了这些第三方应用程序的用户数量。
And that I would say that wasn't a philosophical decision or a principal decision.
我想说这不是一个哲学决定或一个主要决定。
Is was actually a decision made out of necessity because we simply couldn't build all the capability to combat these apps at the time?
实际上是出于必要而做出的决定，因为我们当时根本无法构建对抗这些应用程序的所有能力？
Lenny: Are you hiring or on the flip side, are you looking for a new opportunity?
莱尼：你们是在招聘还是在寻找新的机会？
Well, either way, check out lennysjobs.com/talent.
好吧，无论哪种方式，请查看 lennysjobs.com/talent。
If you're a hiring manager, you can sign up and get access to hundreds of hand curated people who are open to new opportunities.
如果您是招聘经理，您可以注册并接触数百名对新机会持开放态度的精心挑选的人员。
Thousands of people apply to join this collective.
成千上万的人申请加入这个集体。
And I personally review and accept just about 10% of them.
我个人审核并接受的只有大约 10%。
You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth leaders, join almost a hundred other companies who are actively hiring through this collective.
您找不到比这更好的地方来招聘产品经理和增长领导者了，加入通过这个集体积极招聘的近一百家其他公司吧。
Lenny: And if you're looking around for a new opportunity actively or passively join the collective, it's free.
莱尼：如果你正在寻找新的机会，主动或被动地加入这个集体，它是免费的。
You can be anonymous and you can even hide yourself from specific companies.
您可以匿名，甚至可以向特定公司隐藏自己。
You can also leave any time and you'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from.
您也可以随时离开，并且您只会收到您想要的公司的消息。
Check out lennysjobs.com/talent.
请访问 lennysjobs.com/talent。
Lenny: These are hilarious stories that you had to compete with these ripoff jail broken apps, fraudulent apps, and then you had to build a cash box network all over the country.
莱尼：这些都是搞笑的故事，你必须与这些盗版的越狱应用程序、欺诈性应用程序竞争，然后你必须在全国各地建立一个钱箱网络。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
I knew there would be good stories in this question and I'm glad you delivered.
我知道这个问题会有好故事，我很高兴你能回答。
There's also this feeling of within Gojek of just doing the hard thing and you just shared a couple stories of this versus the simple...
Gojek 内部也有一种只做困难事情的感觉，你刚刚分享了几个关于这个与简单事情的故事……
A lot of startups are like, let's do the simplest thing, feels like you guys lean into the hard thing.
很多初创公司都会说，让我们做最简单的事情，感觉你们倾向于做困难的事情。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Where'd that come from?
那是从哪里来的？
And then is there any other story of something that you did that was like, we'll do it the hard way?
还有其他关于你所做的事情的故事吗？比如，我们会以艰难的方式去做？
Kevin Aluwi: I really don't like the idea of moats.
Kevin Aluwi：我真的不喜欢护城河的想法。
Again, one of the concepts that gets thrown out a lot by strategy type folks of what's the moat of your business or your product?
再说一遍，战略类型的人经常抛出的概念之一是你的业务或产品的护城河是什么？
And usually people are looking for an answer like, oh, look at this capability or look at this feature or look at this distribution partner or all of those kind of things.
通常人们正在寻找答案，例如，哦，看看这个功能或看看这个功能或看看这个分销合作伙伴或所有这些事情。
And I don't believe that any moats are durable over time.
而且我不相信任何护城河会随着时间的推移而持久。
Eventually with enough time all moats can be crossed.
最终，只要有足够的时间，所有的护城河都可以被跨越。
And I think one so-called moat that doesn't get talked about enough is the fact that you're able to do hard things because hard things are hard and just simply doing things that are hard, as long as they create value to your customers, actually is a position that makes it harder for your competitors to be able to win over your customers because it's hard to do those things.
我认为，一个未被充分讨论的所谓护城河是这样一个事实，即你能够做困难的事情，因为困难的事情很困难，而只是简单地做困难的事情，只要它们为你的客户创造价值，实际上是一种让你的竞争对手更难赢得你的客户的立场，因为做这些事情很难。
Kevin Aluwi: And probably another example of doing something that sounds very difficult was that in the early days of Gojek, there was a lot of resistance to our services and one of the forms of that resistance, one of the more most common form of that resistance in the early days was actually by motorcycle taxi mafia.
Kevin Aluwi：做一些听起来非常困难的事情的另一个例子可能是，在 Gojek 的早期，对我们的服务存在很多阻力，而这种阻力的一种形式，早期最常见的阻力形式之一实际上是摩托车出租车黑手党。
So you would have these areas that are essentially controlled through violence by specific area mafia.
因此，这些地区基本上是由特定地区黑手党通过暴力控制的。
And when we start having drivers pick up orders and pick up passengers, these people would actually physically assault our drivers.
当我们开始让司机接订单并接乘客时，这些人实际上会对我们的司机进行身体攻击。
We've had everything from bricks thrown at our drivers to knives and machetes being brandished at them to just physical altercations, literally mobs of people getting into these brawls.
我们遇到过各种各样的事情，从向司机投掷砖头到向他们挥舞刀子和砍刀，再到只是肢体冲突，实际上是一群人卷入这些斗殴。
And there was a lot of these kind of things that actually happened in the streets of Jakarta at the time.
当时雅加达街头确实发生过很多这样的事情。
And I think it would've been easy for us to say, "Hey, they're all contractors, they're third parties, let them kind of just sort it out."
我认为我们很容易说：“嘿，他们都是承包商，他们是第三方，让他们来解决这个问题。”
Kevin Aluwi: But instead we actually hired private security.
凯文·阿鲁维：但我们实际上雇佣了私人保安。
So we actually work with private security companies to help these situations, to help our drivers in those situations, to help extract them out of these sticky situations.
因此，我们实际上与私人保安公司合作来帮助这些情况，帮助我们的司机解决这些情况，帮助他们摆脱这些棘手的情况。
And so we actually ran a fairly big private security operation for a fairly long time until it became common to have Gojek drivers do all of these things across cities.
因此，我们实际上在相当长的一段时间内运营了相当大的私人保安业务，直到让 Gojek 司机在城市中做所有这些事情变得很普遍。
We actually ran this very operation intensive thing just to make sure that our drivers could be as safe as possible and it showed our commitment to the driver community, it showed our commitment that we cared.
实际上，我们进行了这项非常密集的操作，只是为了确保我们的司机尽可能安全，这表明了我们对司机社区的承诺，表明了我们关心的承诺。
And again, going back to that earlier point around having that branding association, drivers knew that, hey, we weren't just a platform that didn't care.
再说一遍，回到之前关于品牌关联的观点，司机们知道，嘿，我们不仅仅是一个不在乎的平台。
We actually cared about their safety and that helped build that goodwill even as competitors started coming in and paying more money, we still had a lot of loyalty within the driver community because of things like that.
我们实际上关心他们的安全，这有助于建立这种商誉，即使竞争对手开始进来并支付更多的钱，我们仍然在司机社区中拥有很多忠诚度，因为类似的事情。
Lenny: How did you actually have a security person on a motorcycle?
莱尼：你们是怎么在摩托车上安排保安的？
Were they pretending to be the rider and then just get out and punch them in the face?
他们是不是假装是骑手，然后下车打他们的脸？
Kevin Aluwi: A minority of situations were like that, but a lot of that was just like, having an on-call service where they could just dial a number and somebody within a 5-10 minute distance would actually show up.
Kevin Aluwi：少数情况是这样的，但很多情况就像，有一个随叫随到的服务，他们只需拨打一个号码，5-10 分钟距离内的人就会真正出现。
And so we would have these patrols effectively in specific hotspots where if there was a situation brewing that they would instantly or almost instantly show up to the site and help diffuse it.
因此，我们将在特定的热点地区有效地进行巡逻，如果有情况正在酝酿，他们会立即或几乎立即出现在现场并帮助扩散。
Lenny: I love that you have this super app that's doing all these things for people.
Lenny：我喜欢你们这个超级应用程序，它可以为人们做所有这些事情。
Plus within the company you've built all these mini businesses, like a whole bank to pay people, private security company.
另外，在公司内部，您建立了所有这些小型企业，例如向人们付款的整个银行，私人保安公司。
There's probably some other...
或许还有其他的...
Crystal shared a story of you guys rented out a stadium for drivers to collect all the drivers and give them phones.
克里斯托分享了一个故事，你们为车手租了一个体育场，收集所有车手并给他们手机。
Kevin Aluwi: Yeah, that I think is probably one of the hallmarks of this region in general where I have no doubt that what we were building and what we are today is a technology company, but I do think that in the early days you do have to be a lot more operations heavy.
凯文·阿鲁维：是的，我认为这可能是这个地区的标志之一，我毫不怀疑我们正在建设的以及我们今天是一家技术公司，但我确实认为在早期，你确实必须更加注重运营。
And then I think that lends to that scrappiness because there are a lot of things that to solve elegantly and technically will take a lot of time and just kind of over focusing on those type of solutions I think would be doing your customers a disservice because there are opportunities to make things a lot better just through probably more innovation in operations to kind of kickstart things until you have the more elegant, scalable, technical or product solution.
然后我认为这会导致这种斗志，因为有很多事情需要优雅地和技术性地解决，需要花费很多时间，而且过度关注这些类型的解决方案，我认为这会对你的客户造成伤害，因为有机会通过可能更多的运营创新来启动事情，直到你拥有更优雅、可扩展的技术或产品解决方案，从而使事情变得更好。
Lenny: That reminds me that at Gojek, you held tons of different roles throughout the time you were there.
Lenny：这让我想起，在 Gojek，你在任职期间担任过很多不同的角色。
You were obviously co-founder, your Co-CEO at one point, defacto CPO at one point, CIO, CFO.
显然，您曾是联合创始人、联合首席执行官、事实上的首席产品官、首席信息官、首席财务官。
I heard that you were writing like push notification copy, became a driver at one point just to keep things running.
我听说你写的就像推送通知副本一样，一度成为一名司机只是为了保持一切正常运转。
So feels like another good example of exactly what you're talking about of just doing the hard thing in the operational component.
这感觉就像你所说的在操作组件中做困难事情的另一个很好的例子。
Kevin Aluwi: I mean, yes, actually I did have a stint as an amateur performance marketer in the early days of Gojek.
Kevin Aluwi：我的意思是，是的，实际上，在 Gojek 的早期，我确实曾担任过一段时间的业余绩效营销人员。
I would write copy, I would upload ads onto Facebook and Google and try and do my best in optimizing our online marketing spend.
我会写文案，将广告上传到 Facebook 和 Google，并尽力优化我们的在线营销支出。
But I think I did all of those things, not because I wanted to be scrappy necessarily, but I do think that as, and this is probably most relevant for founders, less for executives, but I think as a founder, I do think it's really important to understand the work that needs to be done in order to see what excellence looks like.
但我认为我做了所有这些事情，并不是因为我一定想斗志旺盛，但我确实认为这可能与创始人最相关，而与高管无关，但我认为作为创始人，我确实认为了解需要完成的工作非常重要，这样才能看到卓越的样子。
And for us, again, we came from an ecosystem where the availability of experienced talent was relatively low.
对于我们来说，同样，我们来自一个经验丰富的人才相对较少的生态系统。
And so for me it was very hard to be able to say, "oh, let's hire person X from organization Y with job description Z," and we know that they probably can deliver because again, the talent availability was really low.
因此，对我来说，很难说：“哦，让我们从 Y 组织雇用 X 人员，职位描述为 Z”，而且我们知道他们可能能够交付，因为人才可用性确实很低。
Kevin Aluwi: And so a lot of times I felt like I needed to understand, okay, what is this job?
凯文·阿鲁维：很多时候我觉得我需要了解，好吧，这份工作是什么？
What exactly does it entail is, and seeing how bad I am at it allowed me to understand what good looked like.
它到底意味着什么，看到我在这方面有多糟糕，让我明白了什么是好的。
And so I held a lot of those roles just because I wanted to understand every part of the business as best as I could in order to then find somebody who could do it orders of magnitude better than myself.
所以我担任了很多这样的角色，只是因为我想尽可能地了解业务的每个部分，以便找到比我做得更好的人。
I would say that is true for all of these roles except for being a driver.
我想说，除了司机之外，所有这些角色都是如此。
I think being a driver, I wasn't trying to understand what excellence as a driver look like.
我认为作为一名车手，我并没有试图理解作为一名优秀的车手是什么样子。
Obviously the drivers do a really challenging job and I think I just wanted to understand what that role was like to build a lot more empathy towards the job and make sure that our product was catered towards what those needs were.
显然，司机的工作非常具有挑战性，我想我只是想了解这个角色是什么样的，以便对这份工作产生更多的同理心，并确保我们的产品能够满足这些需求。
Kevin Aluwi: So when we first launched our car ride hailing services, I think I was the first actual driver on the app and I would every now and then be a driver.
Kevin Aluwi：所以当我们第一次推出叫车服务时，我想我是该应用程序上的第一个真正的司机，而且我时不时地会成为一名司机。
And I remember the early days when I actually picked up a customer.
我还记得早期我真正接待客户的日子。
It was this lady and she put in her destination as a mall.
就是这位女士，她把目的地设置为购物中心。
And so I went to this house and I knew that, okay, I needed to drive to this mall, but then this lady comes out with this giant bag and so I had to hop out the car, take this giant bag, put it in my trunk, and then off we went.
所以我去了这所房子，我知道，好吧，我需要开车去这个购物中心，但是后来这位女士带着这个巨大的袋子出来了，所以我不得不跳下车，拿起这个巨大的袋子，把它放进我的后备箱，然后我们就出发了。
And in the middle of the drive she's like, "Hey, I need to drop off and do my laundry on the way to the mall." And I just had to, "okay, cool." We took a detour, I lugged this giant bag out of our trunk and helped this lady do her laundry.
在开车途中，她说：“嘿，我需要在去购物中心的路上下车洗衣服。”我只得说：“好吧，酷。”我们绕道而行，我把这个大包从后备箱里拖出来，帮这位女士洗衣服。
Kevin Aluwi: And then we went to the mall and I got very little money out of that experience and it wasn't instant, but this is eventually what led to, I think a lot of the support I gave to our driver teams when they were pushing for, Hey, we need more waiting fees, we need to add multiple stops in order to make sure that hey, a lot of this extra work was actually compensated.
凯文·阿卢维：然后我们去了购物中心，我从这次经历中得到的钱很少，而且不是即时的，但这最终导致了，我认为当我们的司机团队推动时，我给了他们很多支持，嘿，我们需要更多的等待费，我们需要增加多个停靠点，以确保嘿，很多额外的工作实际上得到了补偿。
And it was something that I obviously experienced personally and it was something that I definitely was excited about as a set of product features and principles when it came to building our driver app.
这显然是我个人经历过的事情，并且在构建我们的驱动程序应用程序时，作为一组产品功能和原则，我绝对感到兴奋。
Lenny: It feels like having to do that ends up being a feature as you said, that you actually experienced a lot of these challenges and you said the really good point about knowing what to hire and what these people are going to actually do.
莱尼：感觉就像你说的那样，必须这样做最终成为一个功能，你实际上经历了很多这些挑战，并且你说知道要雇用什么以及这些人将实际做什么是非常好的一点。
Lenny: That's interesting how that often turns into a good thing.
莱尼：有趣的是，这常常会变成一件好事。
I know you also have a pretty interesting journey into tech.
我知道您的科技之旅也非常有趣。
What can you share around that?
您能分享什么吗？
Kevin Aluwi: So I am basically a failed finance professional.
凯文·阿鲁维：所以我基本上是一个失败的金融专业人士。
I didn't really know what I wanted to do in my life.
我真的不知道我这一生想做什么。
And in 2005, which is when I entered college, the hot sexy thing to do was finance.
2005 年，也就是我进入大学的时候，最性感的事情就是金融。
And I guess that was what I wanted to do.
我想这就是我想做的。
And I went, studied finance, and then the crash of 2008 happened and I graduated 2009, so it's probably the worst time to try and be a finance professional.
我去学了金融，然后 2008 年的金融危机发生了，我 2009 年毕业了，所以这可能是尝试成为一名金融专业人士的最糟糕的时机。
And so I went through a really challenging time there, but eventually I got a job at a boutique investment banking firm.
所以我在那里经历了一段非常具有挑战性的时期，但最终我在一家精品投资银行公司找到了一份工作。
And that was, I thought like, okay, now I was set for life.
那就是，我想，好吧，现在我已经为生活做好了准备。
I got the job that I wanted.
我得到了我想要的工作。
I'm working in finance.
我从事金融工作。
But then long story short, I was not very good.
但长话短说，我的表现并不是很好。
I was not very good.
我不太好。
My bosses thought I was underperforming.
我的老板认为我表现不佳。
I didn't feel like I was performing, and I kind of left that field that I thought I built my entire, I guess future dreams and identity around.
我感觉自己没有在表演，我有点离开了那个我认为是我建立的整个领域，我猜未来的梦想和身份都是围绕这个领域的。
Kevin Aluwi: And after I did that, I decided to take a bet in Indonesian technology because when all of this was happening was around 2010, 2011, and it was starting to see the development of the current technology giants in the US at the time.
Kevin Aluwi：在我这么做之后，我决定押注印尼科技，因为这一切发生的时间是在 2010 年、2011 年左右，当时开始看到美国当前科技巨头的发展。
And I thought that it would be pretty cool if Indonesia ever had a technology industry to be part of it at the ground floor.
我认为，如果印度尼西亚能够在底层拥有一个科技产业，那就太酷了。
And so I moved back in 2011 and it was super early.
所以我在 2011 年搬回来，那是非常早的事。
It was really early at the time where the level of talent, the level of funding, the level of product market fit, the number of people who transacted on the internet was also still super low.
当时还处于早期阶段，人才水平、资金水平、产品市场契合度、互联网交易人数都还很低。
People still saw the internet as a place for chat apps and social media.
人们仍然将互联网视为聊天应用程序和社交媒体的场所。
And so the level of belief that people had in the space at that time was pretty low.
因此，当时人们对该领域的信任程度相当低。
Kevin Aluwi: People didn't think that real businesses and real valuable products could be built, especially be built locally.
Kevin Aluwi：人们不认为可以建立真正的企业和真正有价值的产品，尤其是在本地建立。
And so taking that bet was something that I think it really panned out for us to be really early in the space, which today has become very vibrant to the scene.
因此，我认为，接受这个赌注对我们来说真的很成功，因为我们在这个领域非常早，今天这个领域已经变得非常充满活力。
Southeast Asia has become, I think one of the most exciting spaces in technology in the world to date.
我认为东南亚已经成为迄今为止世界上最令人兴奋的技术领域之一。
But at the time it wasn't obvious.
但当时并不明显。
And being able to see that development I think was something that was really important to me because it really shows you what's possible in a very short time.
我认为能够看到这种发展对我来说非常重要，因为它确实向您展示了在很短的时间内可能发生的事情。
And I think it's something that probably people in technology in the US can relate to, the people who've been working in this space for like 20, 30 years.
我认为这可能是美国科技界人士所感同身受的，他们已经在这个领域工作了 20、30 年。
But being able to see those early days for me was just really valuable and I think was an experience that I definitely cherish.
但能够看到那些早期的日子对我来说真的很有价值，我认为这是我绝对珍惜的经历。
Lenny: It's really hard to just build a company outside of Silicon Valley, and it was even harder back then.
Lenny：在硅谷之外建立一家公司真的很难，那时候更难。
COVID and remote work almost made it the easiest it's ever been.
新冠疫情和远程工作几乎让它变得前所未有的简单。
Lenny: Sounds like a lot of the fact that you were so far away from the Bay Area informed the way that you built this company, the scrappiness that you talked about.
莱尼：听起来，你远离湾区这一事实在很大程度上影响了你建立这家公司的方式，以及你所说的斗志旺盛。
I'm curious if you have any advice for a founder who's trying to build a company now outside of, say the Bay Area or just US in general based on your experience.
我很好奇，根据您的经验，您对正在尝试在湾区或美国以外地区创建公司的创始人有何建议。
Kevin Aluwi: Yeah, look, it was super hard back then.
凯文·阿鲁维：是的，看，当时非常困难。
It was particularly hard because Indonesia is such a valuable market, Indonesia and the rest, I would say primarily Indonesia just because of its scale.
这尤其困难，因为印度尼西亚是一个非常有价值的市场，印度尼西亚和其他国家，我想说主要是印度尼西亚，因为它的规模。
But I think overall Southeast Asia was just such a valuable market and it was interesting for global companies to want to win it.
但我认为总体而言东南亚是一个非常有价值的市场，跨国公司想要赢得这个市场很有趣。
So we competed with global and regional companies, but the local talent and funding ecosystems were really underdeveloped.
因此，我们与全球和区域公司竞争，但当地的人才和融资生态系统确实不发达。
So that challenge of having to compete with the best in the world for customers in the market while also not having all of the resources available within the market to be able to build products and companies that can compete was I would say one of the most challenging parts of building probably in markets that are atypical or outside of Silicon Valley and maybe some of the other technology centers in the world like China and India.
因此，我认为，必须与世界上最好的公司竞争市场上的客户，同时又没有市场上的所有可用资源来构建具有竞争力的产品和公司，这是我认为最具挑战性的部分之一，可能是在非典型市场或硅谷以外的市场，也可能是在中国和印度等世界上其他一些技术中心。
Kevin Aluwi: So some of my learnings probably there that I would take going forward is I think we talked a lot about being scrappy.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：因此，我可能会继续学习的一些知识是，我认为我们谈论了很多关于斗志旺盛的话题。
In the beginning, we were a lot more ops-heavy than tech-heavy.
一开始，我们的运营重度远高于技术重度。
And doing the things that don't scale through other means I think is definitely something that is absolutely necessary if you're building outside of these main technology hubs.
我认为，如果您在这些主要技术中心之外进行建设，那么做一些无法通过其他方式扩展的事情绝对是绝对必要的。
Another thing I would say is you need to get good at remote work really early.
我想说的另一件事是，你需要尽早擅长远程工作。
And I think today that's kind of become a lot more prevalent as more and more people have experience with remote work.
我认为，随着越来越多的人有远程工作的经验，这种情况现在变得越来越普遍。
For us, we built an engineering center in Bangalore in 2015, and this allowed us to compete a lot better with the global giants because we had access to a really deep talent market in India at the time, but we were really early in this whole remote work thing because it wasn't common for people in our region, but also globally to have so much talent concentration outside of headquarters.
对我们来说，我们于 2015 年在班加罗尔建立了一个工程中心，这使我们能够更好地与全球巨头竞争，因为我们当时可以进入印度一个非常深入的人才市场，但我们在整个远程工作领域确实处于早期阶段，因为对于我们地区的人来说，而且在全球范围内，人才集中在总部之外的情况并不常见。
Kevin Aluwi: And I do believe that companies who want to compete against world class competitors outside of these technology centers like Silicon Valley need to become good at remote work really fast because getting that talent probably means having offices or individuals who are outside of your home market or your headquarters.
凯文·阿卢维：我确实相信，想要与硅谷等技术中心之外的世界级竞争对手竞争的公司需要非常快地擅长远程工作，因为获得这些人才可能意味着拥有位于本国市场或总部之外的办公室或个人。
And probably the final I would say tip here is don't just copy, because Gojek was not an Uber clone, even though that was kind of how some investors or analysts talk about us, we were focused on a solution that was uniquely an Indonesian phenomenon, the motorcycle taxi driver.
我想说的最后一点可能是不要只是复制，因为 Gojek 不是 Uber 的克隆，尽管一些投资者或分析师是这么评价我们的，但我们专注于一个印度尼西亚独有的解决方案，即摩托车出租车司机。
And this led to both product and branding innovation.
这导致了产品和品牌的创新。
On the product side, we were an on-demand super app because we saw that a human being on a motorcycle could do a lot of things.
在产品方面，我们是一个按需超级应用程序，因为我们看到骑摩托车的人可以做很多事情。
And so we built a product around that idea and hence we ended up with a super app even before super apps were really a thing.
因此，我们围绕这个想法构建了一个产品，因此，甚至在超级应用程序真正成为现实之前，我们就开发出了一个超级应用程序。
Kevin Aluwi: And then that branding point that we talked about a little earlier about giving our drivers jackets and helmets so people could see them zip around town, which actually doesn't make sense if you're a car ride hailing service because it's not very easy to brand a car and the drivers are inside the car.
凯文·阿鲁维（Kevin Aluwi）：然后，我们之前谈到的品牌建设点是为我们的司机提供夹克和头盔，这样人们就可以看到他们在城镇中飞驰，如果你是一家叫车服务公司，这实际上没有意义，因为给汽车打上品牌并不容易，而且司机就在车内。
But all of our competitors at the time when they first entered the motorcycle ride hailing space didn't brand their drivers because they came from a car-centric view.
但我们所有的竞争对手在第一次进入摩托车打车领域时都没有给他们的司机打上品牌，因为他们来自以汽车为中心的观点。
And so again, understanding your unique market dynamics is also really important if you're building outside of these technology centers.
同样，如果您在这些技术中心之外进行建设，那么了解您独特的市场动态也非常重要。
Lenny: We've been chatting about Indonesia and Southeast Asia.
莱尼：我们一直在谈论印度尼西亚和东南亚。
I'd love to hear just what should people know about that market?
我很想听听人们应该了解这个市场的哪些信息？
We've chatted about what you guys have built and a few other companies here and there, but what companies should people be aware of what's happening?
我们已经讨论了你们建立的公司以及其他一些公司，但是人们应该了解哪些公司正在发生的事情呢？
What's the latest, what's exciting?
有什么最新的、什么令人兴奋的？
Kevin Aluwi: Yeah, I think specifically Indonesia, most people don't know that Indonesia is the fourth largest country in the world and that Southeast Asia holds almost 10% of the world's population.
凯文·阿卢维：是的，我认为特别是印度尼西亚，大多数人不知道印度尼西亚是世界第四大国家，东南亚拥有几乎世界人口的 10%。
But beyond the macro picture, I think also we've experienced a pretty unique level of pace of adoption for products with great product market fit.
但除了宏观情况之外，我认为我们还经历了非常独特的产品市场契合度的采用速度。
So products with great product market fit grow tremendously fast in this part of the world.
因此，具有良好市场契合度的产品在世界这一地区增长极快。
And in 2015, for example, when we launched our app, we grew more than a hundred percent month on month for the first 16, 18 months.
例如，2015 年，当我们推出应用程序时，前 16、18 个月的月增长率超过 100%。
So we more than doubled every month for more than a year.
因此，在一年多的时间里，我们每个月都增加一倍以上。
Lenny: That is insane.
莱尼：这太疯狂了。
I've never heard of that.
我从来没有听说过这个。
Kevin Aluwi: No, and our investors at the time, Sequoia is one of our investors at the time, told us that this was the craziest growth story that they've ever heard of in the world.
凯文·阿鲁维：不，我们当时的投资者，红杉资本是我们当时的投资者之一，告诉我们这是他们听过的世界上最疯狂的增长故事。
And I wouldn't say because of our necessarily our brilliance, it was a combination of how in Indonesia and in Southeast Asia, there are a lot of these things that are obviously broken and could be improved with better technology and better products.
我不会说因为我们必然是我们的才华，这是印度尼西亚和东南亚的结合，有很多这些东西显然已经被破坏，可以通过更好的技术和更好的产品来改进。
But we also have in this region a very young population who are excited to try new things.
但我们这个地区也有一群非常年轻的人，他们乐于尝试新事物。
And so if you find a solution that really resonates with a lot of these common day-to-day problems, the adoption curve is just absolutely insane.
因此，如果您找到一个真正能解决许多常见日常问题的解决方案，那么采用曲线绝对是疯狂的。
And I think it's one of the things that are definitely unique to developing regions like this one.
我认为这对于像这样的发展中地区来说绝对是独一无二的事情之一。
Kevin Aluwi: One company that's really interesting for example, just to give a flavor of the type of seemingly off the wall product or company being built in this part of the world, there's a company called eFishery, and what they do is they basically create a closed loop ecosystem for fish farmers in currently, I think they're only operational Indonesia or they're recently expanding beyond Indonesia.
Kevin Aluwi：举个例子，有一家公司非常有趣，只是为了让大家了解一下在世界这个地区正在建造的看似古怪的产品或公司，有一家名为 eFishery 的公司，他们所做的基本上是为目前的养鱼户创建一个闭环生态系统，我认为他们只在印度尼西亚运营，或者最近正在扩展到印度尼西亚以外的地区。
Kevin Aluwi: They help farmers feed their fish through this IOT smart device that helps measure the amount of fish feed that needs to go into the ponds, but they also then help farmers do things that get financing and also sell their produce out to local or even regional or global markets.
Kevin Aluwi：他们通过物联网智能设备帮助农民喂鱼，该设备有助于测量需要进入池塘的鱼饲料量，但他们也帮助农民做一些事情以获得融资，并将他们的产品出售给当地甚至区域或全球市场。
And it's a company doing something like a quarter billion dollars in revenue and it's profitable and it's basically a fish farmer, a close loop ecosystem.
这是一家年收入约 2.5 亿美元的公司，它是盈利的，它基本上是一个养鱼户，一个闭环生态系统。
And it's pretty wild that something like this exists, but it does speak to, I think again earlier what I said earlier about the hunger that the population have for better solutions.
像这样的事情存在是相当疯狂的，但它确实说明了，我再次想起我之前所说的人们对更好解决方案的渴望。
And if you can find these better solutions, you can really build companies of the very meaningful scale very, very quickly.
如果你能找到这些更好的解决方案，你真的可以非常非常快地建立非常有意义的规模的公司。
Lenny: So at this point, you've stepped down a CEO, you've stepped down from the board, what's next and how does it feel?
莱尼：那么此时，您已经辞去了首席执行官的职务，也辞去了董事会的职务，接下来会发生什么？感觉如何？
Kevin Aluwi: Yeah, I'm still on this journey honestly, of how does it feel.
凯文·阿鲁维：是的，老实说，我仍在这段旅程中，不知道感觉如何。
I think that building Gojek is by far the most important professional experience and frankly, one of the most important life experiences I've had.
我认为构建 Gojek 是迄今为止最重要的职业经历，坦率地说，也是我经历过的最重要的人生经历之一。
It's made me a way better person actually.
事实上，这让我成为了一个更好的人。
And now that I've stepped away, I am not as bored or as aimless as people would expect after having such a kind of all-consuming thing be part of my life experience.
现在我已经离开了，在经历了这样一种耗费全部精力的事情成为我生活经历的一部分之后，我并不像人们想象的那样无聊或漫无目的。
Kevin Aluwi: What's next?
凯文·阿鲁维：下一步是什么？
Honestly, Lenny, I don't know.
老实说，莱尼，我不知道。
I don't have a plan at this stage.
我现阶段没有计划。
I do some angel investing on the side.
我兼职做一些天使投资。
I work with other founders to be able to maybe just share some of these experiences that I shared today and just figuring out what makes me happy and what are the kind activities that I find rewarding.
我与其他创始人合作，也许能够分享我今天分享的一些经历，并弄清楚什么让我快乐以及什么是我认为有价值的活动。
I don't know, maybe I'll start another company at some point.
我不知道，也许我会在某个时候创办另一家公司。
I think that's my default, but I think right now I'm just taking things easy and trying to figure out another problem I guess, that I could be obsessed about.
我认为这是我的默认设置，但我认为现在我只是把事情放轻松，并试图找出我猜想的另一个我可能会着迷的问题。
Lenny: You've earned that time to explore and look for new problems.
莱尼：你已经赢得了探索和寻找新问题的时间。
Is there anything else you wanted to touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈的吗？
Kevin Aluwi: No Lenny.
凯文·阿鲁维：没有莱尼。
I think we've covered a lot today, and I just wanted to thank you for the time.
我想我们今天已经讨论了很多，我只是想感谢你们抽出时间。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
It's absolutely my pleasure.
这绝对是我的荣幸。
And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Kevin Aluwi: What You Do Is Who You Are.
凯文·阿鲁维：你所做的就是你。
I think that was the second most popular Ben Horowitz's book, but I'm really obsessed with building interesting and engaging cultures, so I think that's one.
我认为这是本·霍洛维茨第二受欢迎的书，但我真的很痴迷于建立有趣且引人入胜的文化，所以我认为这是其中之一。
Another is a classic marketing book.
另一本是一本经典的营销书籍。
Again, we talked a lot about branding today, so there's this book called How Brands Grow by Byron Sharp.
同样，我们今天讨论了很多关于品牌的问题，所以有一本拜伦·夏普（Byron Sharp）写的《品牌如何成长》（How Brands Grow）一书。
I don't agree necessarily with everything in it, but I do think that it's a great primer on how to think about branding and marketing.
我不一定同意其中的所有内容，但我确实认为这是一本关于如何思考品牌和营销的很好的入门读物。
Lenny: Favorite recent movie or TV show?
莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Kevin Aluwi: Favorite recent movie, The Menu and favorite recent TV show?
凯文·阿鲁维：最近最喜欢的电影、《菜单》和最近最喜欢的电视节目？
Netflix show is a Cyberpunk 2077 Edge Runners.
Netflix 节目是《赛博朋克 2077 Edge Runners》。
Lenny: Oh, wow.
莱尼：哦，哇。
I haven't heard of that one.
我没听说过那个。
Kevin Aluwi: Oh, you should check it out.
凯文·阿鲁维：哦，你应该检查一下。
It's super cool.
太酷了。
Lenny: Favorite interview question that you like to ask.
Lenny：你最喜欢问的面试问题。
Kevin Aluwi: Tell me about a subject or activity you've been obsessed with for a long time.
Kevin Aluwi：告诉我一个你长期以来一直着迷的主题或活动。
Lenny: What do you look for in an answer that's like, okay, this is good.
莱尼：你希望得到什么答案，比如“好吧，这很好”。
Kevin Aluwi: I want somebody to basically almost pitch to me an obsession they have than makes me interested in knowing more into that subject.
凯文·阿鲁维：我希望有人基本上向我展示他们的痴迷，而不是让我有兴趣更多地了解这个主题。
The more obscure, the better and the more passionate they are about an obscure thing, even better.
越是晦涩难懂越好，他们对晦涩难懂的事物越有热情，就越好。
And I think it shows people's capability to be really passionate about something and sell something and think about something in a very structured and detailed way.
我认为它显示了人们对某件事充满热情、销售某件事并以非常结构化和详细的方式思考某件事的能力。
Lenny: What are some products that you love and have recently discovered?
Lenny：您喜欢并最近发现了哪些产品？
Kevin Aluwi: Two products, I think right now that I've found absolutely delightful.
Kevin Aluwi：我认为现在我发现两种产品绝对令人愉快。
One is the ARC Browser.
其中之一是 ARC 浏览器。
I know that it's gaining a lot of traction out there, but I'm a very chronic tab hoarder.
我知道它在那里获得了很大的吸引力，但我是一个非常长期的标签囤积者。
My Chrome tabs are just all over the place, and I love that they've figured out I would say the best approach to kind of tab management, and there's just a ton of little delightful, awesome design details in the app that I think is just really cool.
我的 Chrome 标签到处都是，我喜欢他们发现了标签管理的最佳方法，而且应用程序中有大量令人愉快、很棒的设计细节，我认为这些细节真的很酷。
And it's a browser.
它是一个浏览器。
When's the last time there was a really cool browser that came out?
上一次出现非常酷的浏览器是什么时候？
So I also love the ambition that the company has.
所以我也喜欢公司的雄心壮志。
Kevin Aluwi: Second product, Steam Deck.
Kevin Aluwi：第二个产品，Steam Deck。
I'm a huge gamer, and I think it is probably, I would say the best game platform to actually build on the vision of truly portable mobile gaming.
我是一名巨大的游戏玩家，我认为它可能是真正构建真正便携式移动游戏愿景的最佳游戏平台。
Lenny: I love your point with ARC for tab hoarders.
Lenny：我喜欢你关于 ARC 针对标签囤积者的观点。
I also used to have a lot of tabs and I love it just auto deletes stuff and just disappear, and it forces you to lose your tabs and it works out surprisingly.
我以前也有很多标签，我喜欢它自动删除内容然后消失，它迫使你丢失标签，效果令人惊讶。
Lenny: I'm curious what comes up for this one?
莱尼：我很好奇这个会发生什么？
What's something you've recently changed or that you've heard of someone at Gojek recently changed in their product development process that was maybe minor, that had a tremendous impact on the team's ability to execute.
您最近更改了哪些内容，或者您听说 Gojek 的某个人最近在产品开发流程中更改了哪些内容，这些更改可能很小，但对团队的执行能力产生了巨大影响。
Kevin Aluwi: One relatively minor thing that I thought had a lot of impact with execution is being very clear that whoever is accountable for the results should also be the decider.
凯文·阿卢维：我认为对执行有很大影响的一件相对较小的事情是非常明确地表明，对结果负责的人也应该是决策者。
I found that a lot of literature out there says that product teams should be this communal best ideas come from everywhere group, which I think is well-intentioned and absolutely everyone should contribute ideas, but I think not having it be super clear who is accountable and who is deciding often slows down execution a lot.
我发现很多文献都说产品团队应该是一个公共的，最好的想法来自各个地方的团队，我认为这是善意的，绝对每个人都应该贡献想法，但我认为如果不非常清楚谁负责和谁决定往往会大大减慢执行速度。
And I think when we switch to making it really clear that who was the decider for any kind of product development process, I think our execution definitely improved significantly.
我认为，当我们真正明确谁是任何类型的产品开发流程的决策者时，我认为我们的执行力肯定会显着提高。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Kevin, thank you so much for being here.
凯文，非常感谢你来到这里。
Gojek is such an interesting and important story, and I feel like most founders can learn something from the story, so I was really excited to bring you on and to hear a lot of these wild stories that you shared.
Gojek 是一个非常有趣且重要的故事，我觉得大多数创始人都可以从这个故事中学到一些东西，所以我很高兴能邀请您加入并听到您分享的许多疯狂故事。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find your line if they want to reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您的热线，以及听众如何对您有用？
Kevin Aluwi: I am @kaluwi on Twitter.
凯文·阿鲁维：我在推特上是@kaluwi。
That's also my email, kaluwi@gmail.com.
这也是我的电子邮件，kaluwi@gmail.com。
I'll always be happy to chat about Gojek or just generally anything technology related.
我总是很乐意谈论 Gojek 或任何与技术相关的事情。
Again, I have nothing I'm working on at the moment, so I just would love to jam with cool people.
再说一次，我现在没有什么工作，所以我只是想和很酷的人一起即兴演奏。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Thank you again for being here.
再次感谢您来到这里。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。