How to unlock your product leadership skills | Ken Norton, Ex-Google

Ken Norton: Part of what I think is pretty exciting about product management is you are a leader from day one in product management.

肯·诺顿：我认为产品管理非常令人兴奋的部分原因是，您从产品管理的第一天起就是一名领导者。

There's leadership all over the place, but that's your job.

到处都有领导，但那是你的工作。

You're a leader.

你是一个领导者。

You don't have any formal authority, but you're a leader.

你没有任何正式的权力，但你是一个领导者。

You're expected to lead

你应该领导

Lenny: Over his 14-year career at Google.

Lenny：他在 Google 的 14 年职业生涯。

Ken Norton led product teams at built Google Docs, Google Calendar, Google Maps, and even did a stint at Google Ventures.

Ken Norton 领导产品团队开发了 Google 文档、Google 日历、Google 地图，甚至还曾在 Google Ventures 工作过一段时间。

The products that he's helped craft are now used by over three billion people.

他帮助制造的产品现已被超过 30 亿人使用。

Lenny: Today Ken is a full-time executive coach specializing at working with product leaders.

莱尼：如今，肯是一名全职高管教练，专门与产品领导者合作。

In our conversation, we cover the creative versus reactive mindset, why the art of product management is much more important than the science of product management, how to get over imposter syndrome, the most common PM blind spots, how to find a coach and how to know if a coach is right for you, and so much more.

在我们的对话中，我们讨论了创造性思维与反应性思维、为什么产品管理的艺术比产品管理的科学重要得多、如何克服冒名顶替综合症、最常见的产品经理盲点、如何寻找教练以及如何知道教练是否适合你等等。

I hope that you enjoy this episode with Ken Norton.

我希望您喜欢肯·诺顿的这一集。

Lenny: If you're setting up your analytics stack but you're not using Amplitude, what are you doing?

Lenny：如果您正在设置分析堆栈但没有使用 Amplitude，那么您在做什么？

Amplitude is the number one most popular analytics solution in the world, used by both big companies like Shopify, Instacart, and Atlassian, and also most tech startups.

Amplitude 是世界上最受欢迎的分析解决方案，Shopify、Instacart 和 Atlassian 等大公司以及大多数科技初创公司都在使用。

Amplitude has everything you need, including a powerful and fully self-service analytics product, an experimentation platform, and even an integrated customer data platform to help you understand your users like never before.

Amplitude 拥有您所需的一切，包括功能强大且完全自助式的分析产品、实验平台，甚至是集成的客户数据平台，可帮助您以前所未有的方式了解用户。

Lenny: Give your teams self-service product data to understand your users, drive conversions, and increase engagement, growth, and revenue.

Lenny：为您的团队提供自助产品数据，以了解您的用户、推动转化并提高参与度、增长和收入。

Get your vanity metrics, trust your data, work smarter, and grow your business.

获取您的虚荣指标，信任您的数据，更智能地工作并发展您的业务。

Try Amplitude for free.

免费试用 Amplitude。

Just visit amplitude.com to get started.

只需访问振幅.com 即可开始。

Lenny: Have you heard of Lenny's Job Board?

莱尼：你听说过莱尼的工作委员会吗？

Well, if you're hiring or open to a new gig, have I got the site for you, lennysjobs.com.

好吧，如果您正在招聘或接受新工作，我可以为您找到一个网站 lennysjobs.com。

If you're a hiring manager, sign up and get access to hundreds of hand-curated people who are open to new opportunities.

如果您是招聘经理，请注册并接触数百名对新机会持开放态度的精心挑选的人员。

Thousands of people apply.

数千人申请。

And I personally review and accept just 10% of them to be part of this collective.

我个人审核并只接受其中 10% 的人加入这个集体。

You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth people.

您找不到比这更好的地方来雇用产品经理和增长人员了。

Lenny: If you're someone who's looking around for someone new, join the collective.

莱尼：如果你正在寻找新的人，那就加入这个集体吧。

It's free.

它是免费的。

You can be anonymous and hide yourself from any company.

您可以匿名并向任何公司隐藏自己。

You can also leave anytime.

您也可以随时离开。

You'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from.

您只会收到您想收到的公司的来信。

Check out lennysjobs.com to learn more.

请访问 lennysjobs.com 了解更多信息。

Lenny: Welcome to the podcast, Ken.

莱尼：欢迎来到播客，肯。

I am so honored to have you here.

我很荣幸您能来到这里。

You're such a legend of product managers and product management circles.

您真是产品经理和产品管理界的传奇人物。

Your writing has had so much influence on so many people, including myself.

你的写作对很多人产生了很大的影响，包括我自己。

If nothing else, you've led to many donuts being purchased by tech companies over the years.

如果不出意外的话，多年来你已经导致科技公司购买了许多甜甜圈。

So thanks for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Ken Norton: Thank you and thanks for having me.

肯·诺顿：谢谢你，谢谢你邀请我。

The feeling's mutual.

这种感觉是相互的。

Obviously a big fan of your work and all the things you've done for the community and this podcast, which has been fantastic.

显然，我非常喜欢你的工作以及你为社区和这个播客所做的所有事情，这太棒了。

So humbled and excited to be here.

来到这里我感到非常谦卑和兴奋。

Yes, I do think that I'm at least maybe partially responsible for at least a lot of consumption of donuts over these years.

是的，我确实认为我至少对这些年来大量甜甜圈的消费负有部分责任。

Lenny: Are you tired of people asking you about donuts?

莱尼：你厌倦了人们向你询问甜甜圈的事吗？

Ken Norton: I'll never get tired of it.

肯·诺顿：我永远不会厌倦它。

Well, back when we met with people in person, people would bring me donuts, and I never got tired of it, nor did any of the people that I worked with who got to eat those donuts get tired of it.

好吧，当我们亲自与人见面时，人们会给我带来甜甜圈，我从来没有厌倦过它，与我一起工作的那些吃过这些甜甜圈的人也没有厌倦过它。

So, no, no, I'll never get tired of donuts.

所以，不，不，我永远不会厌倦甜甜圈。

Lenny: Someone on Twitter asked what's a digital equivalent of bringing the donuts now that we're in a remote world.

莱尼：推特上有人问，既然我们身处一个遥远的世界，那么什么是数字化等同于带来甜甜圈的东西呢？

Do you have any advice on that?

您对此有什么建议吗？

Ken Norton: That's a great question.

肯·诺顿：这是一个很好的问题。

I'm not even sure if the physical equivalent of donuts is donuts.

我什至不确定甜甜圈的物理等价物是否是甜甜圈。

I mean when I came up with that, I think it was really to be a metaphor around being a servant leader, bringing whatever needs to be done, filling the white space, filling the gaps, whatever needed to happen.

我的意思是，当我想到这个时，我认为这实际上是一个关于成为仆人式领导的隐喻，带来任何需要做的事情，填补空白，填补空白，无论需要发生什么。

So it doesn't always have to be donuts.

所以它并不总是必须是甜甜圈。

Ken Norton: I did put that question out to some of the readers in my newsletter a while ago, maybe earlier in the pandemic, and got a lot of really interesting ideas.

肯·诺顿：不久前，也许是在大流行的早期，我确实在时事通讯中向一些读者提出了这个问题，并得到了很多非常有趣的想法。

Maybe that was at a place where people had a little bit more patience for happy hours over Zoom and stuff like that.

也许那是一个人们对 Zoom 之类的欢乐时光更有耐心的地方。

Maybe that patient set is worn out.

也许那个病人套件已经磨损了。

The idea that I love the most was actual donuts.

我最喜欢的想法是真正的甜甜圈。

There was a PM who got DoorDash codes and found the best local donut place for each of the people on the team and basically sent them a code and said, "Click here and order the donuts to come to your house whenever you want them." So maybe at least partially the digital equivalent of donuts might be actual donuts.

有一位产品经理获得了 DoorDash 代码，并为团队中的每个人找到了当地最好的甜甜圈店，然后向他们发送了一个代码，并说：“点击此处，随时订购甜甜圈到你家。”因此，甜甜圈的数字等价物可能至少部分是真正的甜甜圈。

Ken Norton: Decentralized donuts, on the blockchain.

Ken Norton：区块链上的去中心化甜甜圈。

Lenny: So I was perusing your career path ahead of this chat.

莱尼：所以我在这次谈话之前仔细研究了你的职业道路。

You had this pretty wild career.

你的职业生涯非常疯狂。

You were an engineer initially, and then you were CTO at a part of NBC.

您最初是一名工程师，后来担任 NBC 某个部门的首席技术官。

Then you're a founder.

那你就是创始人了。

Then you spent 14 years at Google working on products that folks may have heard of, like Google Docs and Google Calendar and Google Maps.

然后，您在 Google 工作了 14 年，致力于开发人们可能听说过的产品，例如 Google 文档、Google 日历和 Google 地图。

You've also done a bunch of writing.

你也写了一堆。

Then more recently, you've become a full-time executive coach focusing on product people.

最近，您已成为一名专注于产品人员的全职高管教练。

Lenny: I have so many questions I'd love to ask you about your career and learnings along the way, and the writing.

莱尼：我有很多问题想问你一些关于你的职业生涯、一路走来的学习以及写作的问题。

But I'd actually like to spend most of our time talking about the coaching and things that you've learned through that experience.

但实际上我想花大部分时间来谈论教练以及你通过这次经历学到的东西。

And so, I have a couple questions just off the bat.

所以，我有几个问题。

What does an executive coach actually do?

执行教练实际上是做什么的？

What kinds of things are you helping people with?

您正在帮助人们做哪些事情？

What does a session look like?

会话是什么样的？

Then, two, just how did you decide you wanted to be a coach full time after leaving Google?

那么，第二个问题，你是如何决定在离开谷歌后成为一名全职教练的？

Ken Norton: Yeah, that's a great question.

肯·诺顿：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

I think coaching does mean a lot of different things.

我认为教练确实意味着很多不同的事情。

I mean it depends on who you talk to.

我的意思是这取决于你和谁说话。

It is a little bit of who you are, your style, your approach.

这在一定程度上体现了你是谁、你的风格、你的方法。

Some people are calling themselves coaches, doing more mentoring, more advice.

有些人自称为教练，提供更多指导、更多建议。

Other people are maybe more like me, more peer coaching.

其他人可能更像我，更多的是同伴辅导。

Ken Norton: To me, I see executive coaching as a partnership or creative partnership.

肯·诺顿：对我来说，我将高管教练视为一种伙伴关系或创造性伙伴关系。

It's all about helping my client reach their goals, their potential, whatever that means to them.

这一切都是为了帮助我的客户实现他们的目标、他们的潜力，无论这对他们意味着什么。

So an important thing about coaching is the definition of success does belong to the client.

因此，关于教练的一个重要的事情是成功的定义确实属于客户。

I don't have an agenda.

我没有议程。

I don't have a set of things I'm trying to share, teach, learn.

我没有一套想要分享、教授、学习的东西。

It really is fundamentally up to them, which means every client is completely different.

这从根本上取决于他们，这意味着每个客户都是完全不同的。

They have different sense of where they want to go.

他们对自己想去的地方有不同的感觉。

Different barriers that might be standing in their way.

可能会遇到不同的障碍。

Ken Norton: My coaching practice, I coach the whole person.

肯·诺顿：我的教练实践是，我教练整个人。

So there is no restriction on what we might talk on, what we might work on together.

因此，我们可以谈论什么，可以一起做什么，没有任何限制。

It's not limited to product.

它不仅限于产品。

It's not even limited to work or even leadership.

它甚至不仅限于工作甚至领导力。

It's wherever they want to go, whatever change, transformation means to them.

无论他们想去哪里，无论发生什么变化，转型对他们意味着什么。

Ken Norton: As coaches, we bring a bunch of tools to the conversation.

肯·诺顿：作为教练，我们为对话带来了很多工具。

The most important ones, honestly, are probably listening and curiosity, intuition, open-mindedness, really there to help challenge them to see things in different ways, help them tap into their imagination, figure out when there might be underlying beliefs, help them connect dots that need to be connected, help them disconnect things that feel connected.

老实说，最重要的可能是倾听和好奇心、直觉、开放的思想，真正帮助他们挑战以不同的方式看待事物，帮助他们发挥想象力，找出何时可能存在潜在的信念，帮助他们连接需要连接的点，帮助他们断开感觉有联系的事物。

There's a lot of exploration to it.

这其中有很多探索。

Ken Norton: It's very jazz-like.

肯·诺顿：这很像爵士乐。

My love of jazz has been shared before, but there is an improvisation to it.

我对爵士乐的热爱之前已经分享过，但其中有一些即兴创作。

What coaching is really powerful is you may not necessarily know where you're going when you start and you follow wherever there is meaning and change for that individual, wherever is they want to go.

教练真正强大的地方在于，当你开始时，你可能不一定知道你要去哪里，你会跟随对那个人有意义和变化的地方，无论他们想去哪里。

Ken Norton: The question around what brought me into it was actually interesting.

肯·诺顿：关于是什么让我进入这个行业的问题实际上很有趣。

I, honestly working with my own executive coach, started to figure out what it is that mattered to me, what I liked, what my values were, what my purpose was, started to unpack that I love deeply connecting with people and I love helping people change and grow.

我诚实地与我自己的执行教练一起工作，开始弄清楚什么对我来说很重要，我喜欢什么，我的价值观是什么，我的目的是什么，开始揭示我喜欢与人建立深刻的联系，我喜欢帮助人们改变和成长。

Ken Norton: The moments when I had the opportunity to do that as a manager, as a product leader were the most fulfilling parts of my career.

肯·诺顿：当我有机会担任经理、产品负责人时，那是我职业生涯中最有成就感的部分。

And so, I started to unpack that and figure out what would it look like if that was what I did.

因此，我开始解开它，并弄清楚如果我这样做的话会是什么样子。

Ken Norton: The other part of the journey was, for several years at Google, I worked at GV.

Ken Norton：这段旅程的另一部分是，我在 Google 工作了几年，并在 GV 工作过。

It's Google Ventures, Google's venture capital arm.

这是谷歌风险投资部门，谷歌的风险投资部门。

I had the opportunity to work with founders and product leaders in the portfolio.

我有机会与投资组合中的创始人和产品负责人合作。

I started to simultaneously recognize the shortcomings of giving advice, because it seemed like, well, I can meet with these folks, I could tell them what I did, I could tell them what Google did, and that'll answer all their questions.

我开始同时认识到提供建议的缺点，因为看起来，好吧，我可以与这些人会面，我可以告诉他们我做了什么，我可以告诉他们谷歌做了什么，这将回答他们所有的问题。

Ken Norton: You start to realize advice is not as powerful as you might think it is.

肯·诺顿：你开始意识到建议并不像你想象的那么强大。

It's a little bit like cotton candy.

它有点像棉花糖。

Doesn't have a lot of nutrition.

没有太多的营养。

You get a nice sugar high.

你会得到很好的糖分。

You feel great, both sides feel happy, but then a couple weeks later, a couple months later, nothing's really changed.

你感觉很好，双方都感到高兴，但几周后、几个月后，一切都没有真正改变。

Ken Norton: That's because it doesn't often confront the real problem.

肯·诺顿：那是因为它通常不会面对真正的问题。

It often isn't relevant.

它通常是不相关的。

Like what worked for us at Google may not have worked anywhere else.

就像我们在谷歌行之有效的方法可能在其他地方行不通一样。

It may not even have worked at Google for all I know.

据我所知，它甚至可能在谷歌不起作用。

I feel like there were years at Google where all we were doing was making things worse by showing up and we should just all have gone sat on a beach somewhere, and the company would've grown even faster.

我觉得在谷歌工作了很多年，我们所做的一切都是通过露面让事情变得更糟，我们应该都坐在某个地方的海滩上，公司会发展得更快。

So who knows?

那么谁知道呢？

Ken Norton: I mean so it was these just twin pillars of wanting to figure out where I could do what I like the most, and then also recognizing that where growth comes from is less around advice and telling people what to do and more about helping them figure out their own path, their own way.

肯·诺顿：我的意思是，这就是我想要弄清楚在哪里可以做我最喜欢的事情的两大支柱，然后也认识到增长的来源不是建议和告诉人们该做什么，而是更多地帮助他们找到自己的道路、自己的方式。

Then that ultimately you brought me into, hey, I want to do this full time, and that's what I've been doing ever since.

然后最终你让我意识到，嘿，我想全职做这件事，这就是我从那时起一直在做的事情。

Lenny: When do you find people come to you to get advice and coaching?

莱尼：你什么时候发现有人来找你寻求建议和指导？

What kind of clients do you find you end up working with?

您发现最终与什么样的客户合作？

Ken Norton: That's a great question.

肯·诺顿：这是一个很好的问题。

Generally speaking, I work with senior product leaders, however you want to define that.

一般来说，我与高级产品负责人一起工作，无论你想如何定义它。

Typically, these are chief product officers, VPs of product at startups, largely director level and above at bigger tech companies, some CEOs, other C-level execs in there.

通常，这些人是初创公司的首席产品官、产品副总裁，主要是大型科技公司的总监及以上级别，还有一些首席执行官和其他 C 级高管。

I think really anyone that considers themselves in a product leadership role.

我认为任何认为自己处于产品领导角色的人都是如此。

Ken Norton: Often they come to me because there's a career milestone or a crossroads, and it could be that they now find themselves in the position of being a CPO for the first time.

Ken Norton：他们来找我通常是因为有职业里程碑或十字路口，而且可能是他们现在第一次发现自己担任 CPO。

Maybe there's a new industry change, or they've gone from a big company to a startup and a have this sense of what got me here isn't going to get me there.

也许出现了新的行业变革，或者他们已经从一家大公司变成了一家初创公司，并且有这种感觉让我来到这里并不会让我到达那里。

That's oftentimes when they reach out for coaching.

这通常是他们寻求指导的时候。

Ken Norton: I think my clients are also very introspective and surrounded by great mentors and advisors and have all sorts of people in their life who can help them, but are realizing that a lot of the work is going to be internal work that's going to get them to the next level.

肯·诺顿：我认为我的客户也非常内省，周围都是伟大的导师和顾问，生活中有各种各样的人可以帮助他们，但他们意识到很多工作将是内部工作，这将使他们更上一层楼。

And so, this transformation is going to be just as much what I need to do as who I am.

因此，这种转变将是我需要做的事情，就像我是谁一样。

That's often when people come to me.

人们经常来找我。

Lenny: You said that the way you coach is about the whole person.

莱尼：你说过你的教练方式是关于整个人的。

I'm curious ...

我很好奇...

I don't know if there's an answer to this, but when people come to get help and coaching, how much of their blocks, I guess, are rooted in their regular life versus skills, technical skills, and more like the PME, product leadership side, if that makes sense?

我不知道这个问题是否有答案，但是当人们寻求帮助和指导时，我猜他们的障碍有多少是源于他们的日常生活，而不是技能、技术技能，更像是 PME、产品领导方面，这是否有意义？

Ken Norton: Yeah, I think ...

肯·诺顿：是的，我想......

Well, let me maybe try to illustrate this with an example from my life right now.

好吧，让我尝试用我现在生活中的一个例子来说明这一点。

Indulge me, I'm going to go a little bit left field here, but I promise .

请原谅我，我会在这里稍微偏离一点，但我保证。

Ken Norton: So we are teaching our 16-year-old son how to drive.

肯·诺顿：所以我们正在教我们 16 岁的儿子如何开车。

So he just got his driver's permit.

所以他刚刚拿到了驾驶执照。

Do you remember when you learned how to drive, Lenny?

莱尼，你还记得你什么时候学会开车的吗？

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So it's scary.

所以这很可怕。

I don't know if you know how your parents might have felt, but-

我不知道你是否知道你父母的感受，但是——

Ken Norton: ...

肯·诺顿：……

on the other side of it.

在它的另一边。

It's a whole new journey.

这是一个全新的旅程。

Look, he's a smart kid.

你看，他是个聪明的孩子。

He's going to do great.

他会做得很棒。

But it helped me actually think back to when I learned how to drive.

但它确实帮助我回想起了我学会开车的时候。

Actually, what I think is maybe a little bit more important here is before you learn to drive.

事实上，我认为这里可能更重要的是在你学会开车之前。

And so, if you think about it as a ...

因此，如果你将其视为...

When you're a kid, cars just go places.

当你还是个孩子的时候，汽车只是去某个地方。

You get strapped in and you just wait and you get impatient.

你被绑住了，你只是等待，你变得不耐烦。

Then eventually you go somewhere.

然后最终你会去某个地方。

You're not even consciously aware of the concept of driving.

您甚至没有意识到驾驶的概念。

Just cars just happen and you're not even aware of it.

汽车就这样诞生了，而你甚至没有意识到。

Ken Norton: As you get a little bit older, you start to become curious.

肯·诺顿：随着年龄的增长，你开始变得好奇。

You start to figure out, oh, that wheel has something to do with it.

你开始发现，哦，那个轮子与它有关。

You turn the wheel.

你转动轮子。

Maybe you start to understand there's pedals.

也许你开始明白有踏板。

But it also just seems really simple.

但它看起来也很简单。

Just like you get in the car and you drive it and you go somewhere.

就像你上了车，开着它，然后去某个地方。

Maybe as you get older, you end up maybe even being a little bit of a smart Alec about how easy it looks and you start talking to your parents about, like, "It doesn't look hard.

也许随着年龄的增长，你最终可能会成为一个聪明的亚历克，因为这看起来很容易，你开始和你的父母谈论，比如，“这看起来并不难。

I can do this."

我能做到这一点。”

Ken Norton: Now suddenly you're behind the wheel of the car.

肯·诺顿：现在你突然就坐在汽车的方向盘后面了。

This is what my son is doing.

这就是我儿子正在做的事情。

Wow.

哇。

Is it different than you thought it was going to be?

它与你想象的有什么不同吗？

Is it way more complicated?

是不是更复杂了？

You have to remember check your mirrors.

你必须记得检查你的镜子。

You've got to look before you turn.

转弯之前你必须先看看。

You didn't even know what that sign meant.

你甚至不知道那个标志意味着什么。

You didn't know what those stripes meant.

你不知道这些条纹意味着什么。

It is just overloading with complication and your internal mindset for confronting this challenge is not going to suit you the way you used to approach the world.

它只是让你的复杂性超载，而你应对这一挑战的内在心态将不适合你过去对待世界的方式。

Ken Norton: Maybe to put it in product leadership, product terms, everyone around you has got some real pithy advice about the things you're forgetting to do.

肯·诺顿：也许用产品领导力、产品术语来说，你周围的每个人都对你忘记做的事情有一些真正精辟的建议。

It's like, "Hey, don't forget to check your mirror." Everyone's got a framework.

就像，“嘿，别忘了检查你的镜子。”每个人都有一个框架。

It's like, "Ah, do you know about the 10:00 and 2:00 framework?" "Wait, what's the 10:00 and 2:00 framework?" "Oh, you just put your left hand on the 10:00, your right hand on the 2:00.

就像，“啊，你知道 10:00 和 2:00 框架吗？” “等等，10:00 和 2:00 的框架是什么？” “哦，你只需将左手放在 10:00，右手放在 2:00。

That's the only thing you're missing.

这是你唯一缺少的东西。

Here's a great medium post about that." Then you're like, "This is a problem is I have not adapted to the complexity of the world around me."

这是一篇关于此的很棒的媒体帖子。”然后你会想，“这是一个问题，因为我还没有适应周围世界的复杂性。”

Ken Norton: And so, there is this sense that what is interesting about driving is the world hasn't gotten any more complex.

肯·诺顿：所以，有一种感觉，驾驶的有趣之处在于世界并没有变得更加复杂。

Driving's always been driving.

开车始终是开车。

But now your place in the world has shifted such that the internal meaning-making and self-complexity that is required requires a complete reboot of the internal operating system in order to allow you to thrive there.

但现在你在世界上的位置已经发生了变化，所需的内部意义创造和自我复杂性需要完全重新启动内部操作系统，才能让你在那里蓬勃发展。

Ken Norton: And so, when you talk about this question of how much of this is skills, how much of this is tactics, how much of this is learning versus how much is internal growth, the answer is it's both, but the shift that is required is very much around how your inner self can make meaning and respond to the demands of the world around you so that you can succeed and thrive in this mindset shift that happens.

肯·诺顿：所以，当你谈到这个问题，其中有多少是技能，有多少是策略，有多少是学习，有多少是内在成长，答案是两者兼而有之，但所需要的转变很大程度上围绕着你的内在自我如何创造意义并回应周围世界的需求，以便你能够在这种心态转变中取得成功和蓬勃发展。

Ken Norton: The skills matter, but by this point, you're beyond the place where you've learned the skills.

肯·诺顿：技能很重要，但到目前为止，你已经超出了你所学技能的范围。

There's mastering the skills, but there is this sense of what developmental psychologists call self-complexity, the ability to respond and adapt to that.

一方面是掌握技能，另一方面是发展心理学家所说的自我复杂性，即对此做出反应和适应的能力。

Ken Norton: And so, I think we go through a lot of those shifts in our career.

肯·诺顿：所以，我认为我们在职业生涯中经历了很多这样的转变。

The driving example is simple.

驾驶示例很简单。

Actually, probably too simple, because the world is actually getting more complex for those of us that work in product.

事实上，可能太简单了，因为对于我们这些从事产品工作的人来说，世界实际上变得越来越复杂。

I mean every day something changes.

我的意思是每天都会有一些变化。

It forces us to respond and adapt.

它迫使我们做出反应和适应。

So there aren't even rules of the road in product.

因此，产品中甚至没有规则。

Ken Norton: But I think this is what we're talking about, this question of the internal operating system I develop my ability to restructure it such that I can succeed given the demands that have been placed upon me.

肯·诺顿：但我认为这就是我们正在讨论的问题，内部操作系统的问题，我发展了重组它的能力，这样我就可以在满足对我的要求的情况下取得成功。

Lenny: What an amazing analogy.

莱尼：多么奇妙的比喻啊。

Totally hits home in a good and bad way.

无论好坏，都完全击中要害。

It's a really good segue to something I wanted to chat about, something that we talked about before the recording, which is what you're finding to be one of the bigger unlocks for your clients.

这是我想聊的事情的一个很好的延续，我们在录音之前讨论过的事情，这就是你发现对你的客户来说更大的解锁之一。

It's also a concept that you've been spending a lot of time refining and you're finding is helping people shift, and specifically shift their leadership mindset.

这也是一个你花了很多时间完善的概念，你发现它正在帮助人们转变，特别是转变他们的领导思维。

And so, I'd love to just hear you talk through your thinking there.

因此，我很想听听您谈谈您的想法。

Ken Norton: Yeah, it does sort lead into this.

肯·诺顿：是的，它确实导致了这个问题。

Maybe another analogy that might work for your listeners, if you think about product management, your career arc and where you are challenged from a mindset perspective, in some ways it does feel like the early part of your career.

也许另一个适合你的听众的类比，如果你考虑产品管理、你的职业弧线以及你从心态角度面临的挑战，在某些方面它确实感觉像是你职业生涯的早期阶段。

You're learning to play a video game.

您正在学习玩电子游戏。

Hopefully there's a tutorial.

希望有教程。

Your first job is learning the ropes, somebody's teaching you.

你的第一份工作是学习诀窍，有人教你。

You maybe have managers that are giving you simple little missions that you can succeed at and if you fail, the consequences aren't bad.

你的经理可能会给你一些简单的小任务，你可以成功完成这些任务，如果你失败了，后果也不错。

Ken Norton: It does feel like a little bit ...

肯·诺顿：确实感觉有点……

And I felt this way, and I talked to a lot of people earlier in their career.

我有这种感觉，并且我在职业生涯的早期与很多人交谈过。

It does feel like you're trying to learn the rules of the game, trying to figure out the physics.

确实感觉就像你在努力学习游戏规则，试图弄清楚物理原理。

You want to run up the score.

你想提高分数。

Ken Norton: You get better at playing the game.

肯·诺顿：你会越来越擅长玩游戏。

You fail, but you start to develop some confidence that when you fail, you'll learn from it.

你失败了，但你开始建立一些信心，当你失败时，你会从中吸取教训。

You'll get better.

你会好起来的。

You get really good at the game.

你真的很擅长这个游戏。

You get promoted, you get rewarded, you unlock new levels, teach other people how to play the game.

你得到晋升，得到奖励，解锁新关卡，教其他人如何玩游戏。

You start to feel really awesome about yourself.

你开始对自己感到非常了不起。

Ken Norton: But then suddenly you're put in a place where you realize that the rules of the game aren't so black and white.

肯·诺顿：但突然间你就会意识到游戏规则并不是那么黑白分明。

Maybe there's a long delay now between when you get to see what you did and the score of it.

也许现在在你看到你做了什么和得分之间有很长的延迟。

Things start to behave in unexpected ways.

事情开始以意想不到的方式发展。

The physics start to get weird.

物理学开始变得奇怪。

You're on a level where you're floating.

你处于漂浮的水平。

I don't know what the right metaphor is here.

我不知道这里的比喻是什么。

Ken Norton: But you start to recognize that there's been this huge change.

肯·诺顿：但是你开始意识到已经发生了巨大的变化。

The most frightening part about it is you look around and everyone is looking at you like you're the designer of the game, and you thought you were playing.

最可怕的部分是你环顾四周，每个人都看着你，就像你是游戏的设计师一样，而你以为你在玩。

That's often what it feels like when you move into a leadership role, to come back to this sense of what got me here is not going to get me there.

当你担任领导职务时，通常会有这样的感觉，回到这种感觉，是什么让我到达这里并不会让我到达那里。

Ken Norton: I work with a lot of leaders and sometimes that's come with a pretty significant cost, this juxtaposition, maybe your happiness, your health, your marriage.

肯·诺顿：我与很多领导者一起工作，有时这会带来相当大的成本，这种并置，也许是你的幸福、你的健康、你的婚姻。

There's been this existential crisis of I don't know if I love this anymore.

我不知道我是否还喜欢这个，这是存在的危机。

Maybe it leads to burnout.

也许这会导致倦怠。

Maybe it's not even that dire.

也许情况并没有那么可怕。

It's just a sense of, well, I'm looking around and I need to be something.

这只是一种感觉，嗯，我环顾四周，我需要成为一些人。

I need to unlock something else to continue on this path.

我需要解锁其他东西才能继续走这条路。

There is a sense of stuckness that comes from that.

由此产生一种卡住感。

Ken Norton: What I've come to realize is this is the precipice of, I think, this pretty fundamental concept in leadership.

肯·诺顿：我逐渐意识到，我认为这是领导力这个非常基本的概念的悬崖。

I'm not the originator of this, so this has come up again and again and again.

我不是这个问题的始作俑者，所以这个问题一再出现。

It's not new.

这并不新鲜。

It's going to sound familiar.

这听起来会很熟悉。

It's like the flood myth from Gilgamesh showing up in all this oral histories of the world.

这就像吉尔伽美什的洪水神话出现在世界所有的口述历史中。

It's not new.

这并不新鲜。

Ken Norton: Conscious Leadership Group, an organization that I'm big fan of, they call it above the line versus below the line.

肯·诺顿：意识领导小组，我非常喜欢的一个组织，他们称之为线上与线下。

Brene Brown calls it daring versus armored leadership, sage versus warrior.

布琳·布朗（Brene Brown）称之为大胆与装甲领导，圣贤与战士。

Even in the world of sports, there's playing to win versus playing not to lose.

即使在体育界，也有为了赢而打和为了不输而打的情况。

It's this concept that's come up again and again.

正是这个概念一次又一次地出现。

Leadership Circle calls it creative versus reactive, and that's the term I'm going to use.

领导圈称之为创造性与反应性，这就是我要使用的术语。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Ken Norton: Here's the distinction.

肯·诺顿：这就是区别。

Very simple.

很简单。

Are you responding to the world from a place of fear, where you see problems and threats, you want to be right, you want to be liked, you're defensive as an inward approach, or are you responding to the world from a place of openness, possibility, curiosity, passion, growth, purpose?

你是从恐惧的角度回应世界，看到问题和威胁，你想要正确，你想要被人喜欢，你以一种内在的方式进行防御，还是从开放、可能性、好奇心、激情、成长、目标的角度回应世界？

Very simple concept.

非常简单的概念。

Pretty much everyone understands what I mean.

几乎每个人都明白我的意思。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Ken Norton: Everyone also then immediately says a couple of different things.

肯·诺顿：每个人也会立即说出一些不同的话。

"That sounds amazing.

“这听起来很神奇。

I'd rather have that," or, "Here are moments when I've felt that," but that's usually followed up by a couple of questions.

我宁愿这样，”或者，“在某些时刻我也有这样的感觉”，但这之后通常会提出几个问题。

"I don't know if that works.

“我不知道这是否有效。

It doesn't sound very effective.

听起来不太有效。

Is it possible?" Then how do you that?

有可能吗？”那你怎么做呢？

Ken Norton: The effective part is actually a question we can answer, which is, yes, it is more effective.

肯·诺顿：有效部分实际上是一个我们可以回答的问题，也就是说，是的，它更有效。

Bob Anderson, Bill Adams are two management scientists who've written extensively, done a whole bunch of research, and they have looked at every possible dimension you can imagine of success, both leadership capability, they've looked at revenue, brand, profitability, everything, and it's shown, yes, this creative form of leadership is in every possible way positively correlated with success and reactive leadership is negatively correlated.

鲍勃·安德森（Bob Anderson）和比尔·亚当斯（Bill Adams）是两位管理科学家，他们撰写了大量著作，进行了大量研究，他们研究了你能想象到的成功的每一个可能的维度，包括领导能力，他们研究了收入、品牌、盈利能力，一切，结果表明，是的，这种创造性的领导形式在所有可能的方面与成功呈正相关，而反应性领导则呈负相关。

So, yes, it works yet.

所以，是的，它还有效。

Ken Norton: Yet, according to their research, some 75% of leaders are primarily operating reactively.

Ken Norton：然而，根据他们的研究，大约 75% 的领导者主要是被动操作。

So most leaders are operating from a place of fear, reacting, seeing problems, and threats.

因此，大多数领导者都是在恐惧、反应、看到问题和威胁的情况下开展工作的。

That's because that other question of how do you do it is such a hard one to answer.

那是因为“如何做到这一点”的另一个问题很难回答。

It's not an easy thing that you flip the switch of.

拨动开关并不是一件容易的事。

It goes back to this notion of redesigning that internal operating system, so how you confront the world, what underlying belief systems and assumptions you have that are causing you to operate from that place.

这可以追溯到重新设计内部操作系统的概念，即你如何面对世界，你有哪些潜在的信念系统和假设导致你从那个地方进行操作。

Lenny: Can I ask you a quick question?

莱尼：我可以问你一个简单的问题吗？

Just to clarify the two sides, what's a sign that you're in the reactive side of things?

只是为了澄清这两个方面，什么迹象表明您处于事物的被动一方？

I think one thing you said is you're worrying a lot about how people think about you and make sure that they like you.

我认为你说的一件事是你非常担心人们如何看待你并确保他们喜欢你。

Is there anything else that's going to tell a listener, "Oh, maybe I'm falling into this trap"?

还有什么可以告诉听众“哦，也许我掉进了这个陷阱”？

Ken Norton: Yeah, you've nailed it, which is that fear, like operating from a place of anxiety.

肯·诺顿：是的，你已经做到了，这就是恐惧，就像在焦虑的地方进行操作一样。

There are different ways, depending on our mindsets, our approaches.

有不同的方法，具体取决于我们的心态和方法。

I like the word postures because it seems to click different ways that we retreat into this reactive mode.

我喜欢“姿势”这个词，因为它似乎以不同的方式让我们退回到这种反应模式。

Fear and anxiety is the way.

恐惧和焦虑就是出路。

That's how you know.

你就是这样知道的。

You're just like, "Ugh, I'm below the line." I'm just like I'm seeing problems.

你会说，“呃，我已经低于底线了。”我就像看到了问题一样。

I'm seeing threats.

我看到了威胁。

Ken Norton: Our brains are hardwired to do that, so it's not like that's wrong.

肯·诺顿：我们的大脑生来就这样做，所以这并不是错的。

These are brains that learn to do that, I don't know, on the tundra being chased by wild animals.

我不知道，这些大脑是在被野生动物追逐的苔原上学会这样做的。

So this is our normal way of being.

所以这就是我们正常的存在方式。

There might be different desires and needs that force you to operate that way.

可能有不同的愿望和需求迫使您以这种方式行事。

We think there's really three of these postures.

我们认为实际上存在三种姿势。

Ken Norton: Anybody is probably more than one of them, so this is not pathologizing.

肯·诺顿：任何人都可能不止是其中之一，所以这并不是病态。

This isn't putting you in a box.

这并不是把你放在一个盒子里。

But probably one of these will resonate more than the others.

但其中之一可能会比其他的更能引起共鸣。

Wanting to be approved, wanting to be loved, wanting other people to like you.

想要被认可，想要被爱，想要别人喜欢你。

This was me in my early part of my career.

这就是我职业生涯早期的情况。

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

So you're kind of like the heart type.

所以你有点像心型。

It's sometimes called move toward other people.

有时这被称为走向他人。

A lot of that came from my environment.

其中很多来自我的环境。

I was coming up with product management.

我想出了产品管理。

No one necessarily knew what the job even was.

没有人一定知道这项工作到底是什么。

I had no authority and most people could just ignore me if they wanted to.

我没有权力，大多数人如果愿意的话可以忽略我。

And so, I had to meet other people's expectations, please them, want to be accepted by them, seek their approval.

所以，我必须满足别人的期望，取悦他们，想要被他们接受，寻求他们的认可。

It was this what we call a complying approach.

这就是我们所说的合规方法。

Ken Norton: Here, this is why this is so vexing is it actually worked really well.

肯·诺顿：这就是为什么这如此令人烦恼，因为它实际上效果很好。

It was pretty effective.

这非常有效。

Other people liked working with me.

其他人喜欢和我一起工作。

I listened to them and I considered everyone's needs and made sure everyone felt heard.

我倾听他们的意见，考虑每个人的需求，并确保每个人都感到被倾听。

But there came a point where I gave away so much power that it was hurting me when it came to purpose and execution and decisiveness.

但到了某个时刻，我放弃了太多的权力，以至于当涉及到目标、执行力和果断力时，这对我造成了伤害。

Ken Norton: And so, again, these aren't bad.

肯·诺顿：所以，再说一次，这些还不错。

There's usually underlying tendencies that are very good.

通常有非常好的潜在倾向。

It just starts to have a cost as you become more senior.

当你变得更高级时，它就会开始产生成本。

It's like the gears start to grind to a halt a little bit.

就像齿轮开始慢慢停下来一样。

Ken Norton: Another way is more of a needing to be right head type, protecting one's own ideas, sometimes called a move away from type, distance, arrogance, criticism, retreating into your own ideas and head.

肯·诺顿：另一种方式更多的是需要保持正确的头脑类型，保护自己的想法，有时称为远离类型、距离、傲慢、批评，退回到自己的想法和头脑中。

Then the other will not be a surprise, is the more controlling, my way or the highway, autocratic will move against wanting to win, wanting to be number one, wanting to excel, wanting dominance, wanting control, this would be another tendency.

那么另一个就不奇怪了，就是控制性更强，我的方式或者高速公路，专制会反对想要获胜，想要成为第一，想要出类拔萃，想要统治，想要控制，这将是另一种倾向。

Ken Norton: Often one of those feels natural to you and another one feels just so incredibly distasteful that you can't imagine possibly operating that way.

肯·诺顿：通常，其中一种对你来说很自然，而另一种则令人难以置信地令人厌恶，以至于你无法想象可能会以这种方式进行操作。

This goes into the underlying beliefs part.

这涉及到基本信念部分。

If you had told me early in my career, when you saw me being passive and people-pleasing like that, "You've just got to stop caring what other people think, Ken.

如果你在我职业生涯的早期，当你看到我这样被动和取悦别人时告诉我，“你就必须停止关心别人的想法，肯。

You've got to be more pushy."

你必须更加咄咄逼人。”

Ken Norton: People did say that to me.

肯·诺顿：人们确实对我这么说过。

That was pretty common probably in my performance review.

这在我的绩效评估中可能很常见。

It was very common.

这很常见。

Even people who worked for me were like, "You need to push back." My only archetype for doing that was the autocratic, controlling type.

即使是为我工作的人也会说，“你需要反击。”我这样做的唯一原型是专制、控制型。

I was like, "I don't want to be like that.

我当时想，“我不想成为那样。

That guy's a jerk.

那家伙是个混蛋。

That's a fascist.

那是法西斯分子。

I don't want to be a fascist.

我不想成为法西斯分子。

I do care about other people."

我确实关心其他人。”

Ken Norton: And so, many of our examples and archetypes are these equally ineffective reactive ways of being.

肯·诺顿：因此，我们的许多例子和原型都是同样无效的反应性存在方式。

And so, no wonder I didn't want to be like that, because that's also not very effective either.

所以，难怪我不想那样，因为那也不是很有效。

But there was a sense for me of redefining ...

但我有一种重新定义的感觉......

This is where coaching is powerful is this what are the underlying assumptions and beliefs that you have that are causing you to fall back on some of these fundamental ways of operating and not let go of them?

这就是教练的力量所在，你所拥有的潜在假设和信念是什么，导致你依赖于这些基本的运作方式而不放弃它们？

Ken Norton: Because the answer for me wasn't stop caring about other people.

肯·诺顿：因为对我来说，答案不是停止关心他人。

I wasn't going to do that.

我不打算那样做。

That's a value of mine.

这就是我的一个价值。

It's part of who I am.

这是我的一部分。

But take the caring about other people, the empathy, the connection, and direct it in a more creative way where you're operating now from a place of purpose and vision and not reacting and protecting and defending and wanting to be.

但是，要关心他人、同理心、联系，并以一种更有创意的方式来引导它，让你现在从一个有目标和愿景的地方出发，而不是做出反应、保护、捍卫和想要成为的样子。

Ken Norton: For me, the key to that was letting go of needing to be liked and redefining it as an admiration that takes place over time.

肯·诺顿：对我来说，关键是放弃被喜欢的需要，并将其重新定义为随着时间的推移而发生的钦佩。

So rather than I want to leave this room with everyone liking me, I started to realize I want to be the type of leader where, a decade later, people say, "I would work with that guy again in a heartbeat." That was part of the unlock for me.

因此，我不想在每个人都喜欢我的情况下离开这个房间，而是开始意识到，我想成为那种领导者，十年后，人们会说，“我会毫不犹豫地再次与那个人一起工作。”这对我来说是解锁的一部分。

Ken Norton: Again, I care about other people.

肯·诺顿：再说一遍，我关心其他人。

That's a natural gift that underlines it.

这是一种自然的天赋，凸显了这一点。

But it's a redefinition of how that serves me, if that makes sense.

但这是对我的服务方式的重新定义，如果这有意义的话。

Lenny: Say someone's in that first bucket ...

莱尼：假设有人在第一个桶中......

And I was definitely in that first bucket.

我绝对是第一个。

I still want people to like me and I still probably have flaws there.

我仍然希望人们喜欢我，但我可能仍然有缺陷。

But say you're a PM and you're like, "Oh, man.

但是假设你是一名产品经理，你会说：“哦，伙计。

That's exactly how I am acting right now." It sounds like is the core of it just a mindset shift, going from I need people to like me to what you just talked about of, okay, I'm going to shift to I just want them to respect me over time?

这正是我现在的表现。”听起来它的核心只是一种心态转变，从我需要人们喜欢我到你刚才谈到的，好吧，我要转变为我只是希望他们随着时间的推移尊重我？

Is that the core of it?

这是它的核心吗？

I know it's probably not that easy, but how should someone behave during that bucket right now?

我知道这可能没那么容易，但是在那个时期人们应该如何表现？

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

It sounds easy, right?

听起来很容易，对吧？

This is part of what's hard about this, is it always sounds easy when you describe it, having gone through the journey.

这就是这件事的困难之处的一部分，当你描述它、经历了整个旅程时，它总是听起来很容易。

It's sort of like talk to somebody on the summit of Mount Everest and they'll be like, "Yeah.

这有点像在珠穆朗玛峰顶上与某人交谈，他们会说：“是的。

Well, I could just climb this mountain.

好吧，我可以爬这座山。

That's how I got here." You're like, "Okay, wait, that's not that easy." Again, it is very individualized.

我就是这样来到这里的。”你会说，“好吧，等等，这没那么容易。”再次强调，它非常个性化。

Ken Norton: I think there's an appreciation that you have to understand what is holding you back.

肯·诺顿：我认为你必须了解是什么阻碍了你。

This is a lot of the work that I'll do with my clients is what is those underlying expectations?

我将与客户一起做很多工作，这些潜在的期望是什么？

What are these underlying beliefs?

这些基本信念是什么？

Ken Norton: I Believe that my style was incompatible with being the leader.

肯·诺顿：我相信我的风格与成为领导者不相容。

I would've said I can't be a CEO because I'm not tough enough.

我会说我不能成为首席执行官，因为我不够坚强。

I'm not strong enough.

我还不够坚强。

I'm not commanding enough.

我的指挥还不够。

I can't command a room.

我无法指挥一个房间。

It's like, okay, what is the underlying belief I'm making about what leadership is there?

就像，好吧，我对领导力的基本信念是什么？

There's an archetype that I have in my mind that is incompatible with this this way.

我心中有一个原型与这种方式不相容。

Ken Norton: And so, there's a need to confront that.

肯·诺顿：所以，有必要面对这个问题。

Okay, what makes you believe the only type of leader is the leader that orders people around?

好吧，是什么让你相信唯一类型的领导者是发号施令的领导者？

Maybe that's all I've ever seen.

也许这就是我所见过的一切。

Maybe I don't believe it's possible to be another type of leader.

也许我不相信有可能成为另一种类型的领导者。

Maybe there's an inner critic that is convincing me that that's not who I am, because a part of it is redefinition of what does leadership need for you, for you authentically?

也许有一个内心的批评家让我相信那不是我，因为其中一部分是重新定义领导力对你、真正对你来说需要什么？

What would it be like, in my case, to lead with purpose and be decisive and lead with vision and to have other people felt like they're being brought along and listened to and participated and create safe spaces for other people?

就我而言，有目的、果断、有远见地领导，让其他人感觉他们被带领、被倾听、参与并为其他人创造安全空间，会是什么样子？

That was the question there.

这就是问题所在。

Ken Norton: It took people challenging my point of view.

肯·诺顿：有人质疑我的观点。

It took working with a coach, asking me questions, forcing me to see places I'd made connections, that the connections don't really need to be made.

我需要和教练一起工作，问我问题，迫使我看到我已经建立联系的地方，而这些联系实际上并不需要建立。

There's a lot of instruments and tools we work with in coaching.

我们在辅导过程中使用了很多工具和工具。

There's 360-degree assessments that are very helpful here that will start to help you understand, hey, here are places where you're operating actively.

这里有 360 度的评估非常有帮助，它将开始帮助你理解，嘿，这里是你正在积极运作的地方。

Here are places where you're operating really creatively, because, by the way, most people are partially somewhere in that journey.

在这些地方，你可以真正发挥创造性，因为，顺便说一句，大多数人都在这段旅程中的某个地方。

It's a developmental process.

这是一个发展过程。

Ken Norton: And to start to be able to get the feedback, the dopamine hit of seeing when I do it this way, actually it's more effective and it doesn't cost me as much.

肯·诺顿：当我这样做时，开始能够获得反馈，看到多巴胺的刺激，实际上它更有效，而且不会花费我太多钱。

I'm happier and I'm enjoying it, I'm seeing that it's working, is oftentimes a big part of this because there is this belief that it won't work.

我很高兴，我很享受它，我看到它正在发挥作用，这通常是其中的一个重要部分，因为人们相信它不会起作用。

The number of times when I'm with a client in coaching and say, "Well, what if you did do that?" and they go, "It just won't work." You realize that there is this wiring in there that needs ...

有多少次我在辅导客户时说：“好吧，如果你真的这么做了怎么办？”他们说：“这行不通。”您意识到那里有一条线路需要......

And this is what I talk about, this operating system that needs to be rejiggered to start to make sense of what if it did and how might you know.

这就是我所说的，这个操作系统需要重新调整才能开始理解如果它发生了什么以及你如何知道。

Lenny: The point you just made about how you can realize that you can be successful in a lot of different ways and you don't have to be this one archetype of a leader really resonates with my experience.

莱尼：你刚才提到的关于如何认识到你可以通过多种不同的方式取得成功，而且你不必成为领导者的原型，这一点确实与我的经历产生了共鸣。

I actually had an executive coach for a few months, and that was probably the biggest unlock for me.

事实上，我有一位高管教练几个月了，这可能是对我来说最大的解锁。

We did the strengths exercise, which a lot of people do.

我们做了很多人都会做的优势练习。

The main thing that she helped me see is you can do all the things that you want to do through the lens of the strengths that you have and not have to force yourself to be good at these other things, because there's many ways to accomplish the same outcomes.

她帮助我认识到的最重要的一点是，你可以通过自己拥有的优势来做所有你想做的事情，而不必强迫自己擅长其他事情，因为有很多方法可以实现相同的结果。

Ken Norton: That's exactly right.

肯·诺顿：完全正确。

Then once you start to understand that, you start to develop a better way of finding the right place, the right environment, the right role.

一旦你开始理解这一点，你就会开始找到更好的方法来寻找合适的地点、合适的环境和合适的角色。

When we began the conversation, you asked me what brought me into executive coaching.

当我们开始谈话时，你问我是什么让我进入了高管教练领域。

I would feel these ...

我会感觉这些...

I would describe it as flying too close to the sun in my career, where I would have a team.

我会把它形容为在我的职业生涯中离太阳太近了，在那里我会有一个团队。

I'd be managing a small team.

我会管理一个小团队。

I would love it.

我会喜欢它。

I would enjoy it.

我会喜欢它。

Then suddenly my team would grow.

然后我的团队突然就壮大了。

Ken Norton: I'd become more senior than I felt comfortable being.

肯·诺顿：我的资历比我觉得舒服的还要高。

Then I felt like I wasn't getting to do the "real" work anymore.

然后我觉得我无法再做“真正的”工作了。

Then I would be just completely disheveled and dissatisfied.

那么我就会彻底凌乱和不满。

Then I'd go try to go find a smaller team or even stop being a manager.

然后我会尝试去寻找一个更小的团队，甚至不再担任经理。

It was a very meandering, reactive path.

这是一条非常蜿蜒、反应性的道路。

It was like every so often I was catching a wave, and I knew what it felt like to be on the wave, but I didn't know what the characteristics of the wave were.

就像我时常在捕捉波浪，我知道在波浪上的感觉，但我不知道波浪的特点是什么。

Ken Norton: Then through coaching, I was like I love connecting with other people.

肯·诺顿：然后通过辅导，我觉得我喜欢与其他人交流。

I like helping people grow.

我喜欢帮助人们成长。

I like helping challenge people.

我喜欢帮助挑战别人。

I like helping.

我喜欢帮忙。

Then I was like what are those parts?

然后我就想那些部分是什么？

What if I unpack those?

如果我拆开这些东西怎么办？

Oh, that's why I loved managing that team of five because I got to do a lot of it.

哦，这就是为什么我喜欢管理这个五人团队，因为我要做很多事情。

That's why I hated managing a team of 35 because there's no time for it.

这就是为什么我讨厌管理一个 35 人的团队，因为没有时间。

Ken Norton: Then you start to say, okay, well, what if rather than just randomly meandering through my career, I actually elevated needing to connect, wanting to be helpful?

肯·诺顿：然后你开始说，好吧，好吧，如果我不只是随意地在我的职业生涯中徘徊，而是真正提升了联系、想要提供帮助的需要，该怎么办？

Then you're like what would it be like if I wanted the helping professions?

那么你会想，如果我想要帮助职业会是什么样子？

It's just a reframing of move through your career in a way that seems externally to fit some definition of success and to start to define that internally.

这只是对你职业生涯的重新规划，从外部来看似乎符合成功的某些定义，并开始在内部定义它。

Ken Norton: That is the very definition of the reactive versus creative mindset.

肯·诺顿：这就是反应性思维与创造性思维的定义。

Reactive, allowing the world to set the expectations and try to meet them versus tap into what your real, true sense of purpose and vision is.

反应性，让世界设定期望并尝试满足它们，而不是挖掘你真正的目的和愿景。

Then use that to navigate the world.

然后用它来探索世界。

Lenny: It's interesting that so much of this is just mindset.

莱尼：有趣的是，这很大程度上只是心态。

It's not like learning a new skill as a leader or a product manager.

这不像作为领导者或产品经理学习新技能。

It's just seeing yourself in the world differently.

只是以不同的方式看待世界上的自己。

All of a sudden you unlock your career.

突然之间，你开启了你的职业生涯。

Is that what you find?

那是你发现的吗？

Ken Norton: Absolutely.

肯·诺顿：当然。

That's why I think so much of the focus on the skills, the frameworks, it can be limited as you develop these capabilities, because it's inner work.

这就是为什么我认为如此多地关注技能、框架，当你开发这些能力时，它可能会受到限制，因为它是内部工作。

Where we're talking about is this is all me.

我们谈论的是这就是我。

Ken Norton: Now that's empowering.

肯·诺顿：现在这就是授权。

There's empowerment to be able to say I want to change something and it doesn't involve a whole bunch of other people convincing and persuading them, getting into an executive ...

能够说我想改变一些事情是有权力的，而且不需要一大堆其他人说服和说服他们，进入高管......

This is all me.

这就是我的全部。

But it also, in some ways, makes it harder because it is all you.

但在某些方面，这也让事情变得更加困难，因为这一切都取决于你。

In coaching, it's all about you.

在教练方面，一切都取决于你。

It's all about that.

就是这样。

Who am I and what matters to me?

我是谁，什么对我来说很重要？

What underlying belief systems, inner voices are challenging me in ways that I want to be challenged?

哪些潜在的信仰体系、内心的声音正在以我想要挑战的方式挑战我？

What is my unique ...

我的独特之处是什么...

Ken Norton: I love the word authenticity.

肯·诺顿：我喜欢“真实性”这个词。

It's, like you were just talking about, like what is my authentic way to lead, and then how do I center that rather than trying to fit into someone else's definition of what leadership might be?

就像你刚才所说的，我真正的领导方式是什么，然后我如何集中它，而不是试图适应别人对领导力的定义？

Ken Norton: You may recognize I can't be that authentic way of leader at this place or in this place type of company, but I know how to find it and I'm going to go find it.

肯·诺顿：你可能认识到我不能成为这个地方或这个地方类型的公司真正的领导者，但我知道如何找到它，而且我会去找到它。

Lenny: Do you have any more examples of either someone uncovering this about themselves, or another mindset shift that you can make in one of these other buckets, similar to the idea of I'll think about people over the long term versus immediately?

莱尼：你还有更多的例子来说明有人发现了自己的这一点，或者你可以在其他桶中做出另一种心态转变，类似于我会从长远考虑人们而不是立即考虑人们的想法？

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

It really does vary.

它确实有所不同。

You start to pick up on that shift when it's less of the goals being defined externally and more of the goals being defined internally.

当外部定义的目标越来越少而内部定义的目标越来越多时，您就会开始意识到这种转变。

So you'll have a conversation with somebody who's new to coaching and you'll say, "What do you want?" They'll be like, "Well, I want to get promoted to VP." "Why?" "Because I want to be a VP." It's like, "Well, what's important about being VP?" "Well, because ...

因此，当你与刚接触教练的人交谈时，你会说：“你想要什么？”他们会说，“好吧，我想晋升为副总裁。” “为什么？” “因为我想当副总裁。”就像，“那么，成为副总裁最重要的是什么？” “嗯，因为……

" Eventually the answer is, well, because it's there and that's the thing that I'm supposed to do.

“最终的答案是，嗯，因为它就在那里，这就是我应该做的事情。

Ken Norton: Then you start to notice the shift and it starts to become more of, "Well, because really what's important to me is creativity.

肯·诺顿：然后你开始注意到这种转变，它开始变得更加“嗯，因为对我来说真正重要的是创造力。

I want more creativity in my life.

我希望生活中有更多创造力。

I want more ability to challenge other people." And so, you start to just sense that's more from in than from out.

我想要有更多的能力去挑战别人。”所以，你开始感觉到这更多是由内而外的。

That's where that shift is.

这就是转变所在。

Ken Norton: The journey is different for everyone.

肯·诺顿：每个人的旅程都是不同的。

I think ultimately this is part of why, quite frankly, coaching may not be right for everyone.

坦白地说，我认为最终这就是为什么教练可能并不适合每个人的部分原因。

If we go back to that video game analogy, if you're looking for someone to just teach you the tutorial so you can learn how to play the video game and there's this jackass like me sitting next to you and saying, "What's important to you about playing this video game?" you're going to be like, "Just can you tell me how to hold the controller?

如果我们回到视频游戏的类比，如果你正在找人教你教程，这样你就可以学习如何玩视频游戏，而像我这样的傻瓜坐在你旁边说：“玩这个视频游戏对你来说重要的是什么？”你会说，“你能告诉我如何握住控制器吗？

Can you stop?"

你能停下来吗？”

Ken Norton: So it's not always right.

肯·诺顿：所以这并不总是正确的。

It's a place where I think oftentimes people recognize that they've gotten all the advice, all the frameworks, all the rules, all the tricks, all the tips.

我认为人们常常会在这个地方认识到他们已经获得了所有建议、所有框架、所有规则、所有技巧、所有技巧。

They've learned that, they've mastered it, they've tweaked it, they've optimized it, they've recognized the shortcomings, they've customized it.

他们已经了解到，他们已经掌握了它，他们已经调整了它，他们已经优化了它，他们已经认识到了缺点，他们已经定制了它。

The emergence that's required for them to get to the next level is just going to come just as much from inside them as it is from outside, if not more.

他们要达到新的水平所需的涌现，来自他们内部的力量和来自外部的力量一样多，甚至更多。

That's when that shift is made.

那就是转变发生的时候。

Lenny: That's called mentorship, I think, for people that are just looking for actual concrete advice on how to do a thing, is that right, versus coaching?

莱尼：我认为，对于那些只是寻求如何做某事的实际具体建议的人来说，这就是所谓的指导，对吗？与教练相比？

Ken Norton: I think so.

肯·诺顿：我想是的。

This is where the words are squishy because there are a lot of people who are mentoring, who are also stepping into a coach role occasionally.

这就是话的含糊之处，因为有很多人在指导，偶尔也会担任教练的角色。

There are plenty of managers who are great at coaching as necessary.

有很多经理非常擅长必要的辅导。

So skills run the gamut, but it's a question of how much are you looking for someone to tell you the right way versus how much do you believe that there even is no right way?

因此，技能是包罗万象的，但问题是你在多大程度上寻求有人告诉你正确的方法，以及你在多大程度上相信甚至没有正确的方法？

It's ultimately going to have to be your way.

最终这必须是你的方式。

Ken Norton: That's a different place, a different point in your career at different levels of journey.

肯·诺顿：那是一个不同的地方，是你职业生涯中不同阶段的不同阶段。

It's part of why I tend to work with probably more senior executives, because they're not looking to me to tell them how to do the job.

这就是为什么我倾向于与可能更高级的管理人员一起工作的部分原因，因为他们并不指望我告诉他们如何做这项工作。

They've already learned how to do the job.

他们已经学会了如何做这项工作。

It's just something deeper that's going to need to break through from that.

这只是一些更深层次的东西，需要从中突破。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Unit.

莱尼：这一集是由 Unit 为您带来的。

What did Gusto, Uber, Shopify and AngelList all have in common?

Gusto、Uber、Shopify 和 AngelList 有什么共同点？

They've all decided to build banking into their product.

他们都决定将银行业务融入到他们的产品中。

According to AngelList head of product, "Banking makes every single feature more interesting.

AngelList 产品负责人表示，“银行业务使每一项功能都变得更加有趣。

With it, our platform functions as financial mission control for our customers.

有了它，我们的平台就可以为客户提供财务任务控制。

Without it, we're just another software tool in a big messy stack."

没有它，我们只是一个混乱的堆栈中的另一个软件工具。”

Lenny: Embedding banking into your product not only adds differentiation, but also helps you acquire, retain, and monetize your customers.

Lenny：将银行业务嵌入到您的产品中不仅可以增加差异化，还可以帮助您获取、保留客户并从中获利。

Unit is the market leader in banking as a service, combining multiple bank partners with a developer-friendly API to empower companies of all sizes to launch accounts, cards, payments, and lending in just a few weeks.

Unit 是银行即服务领域的市场领导者，将多个银行合作伙伴与开发人员友好的 API 相结合，使各种规模的公司能够在短短几周内推出账户、银行卡、支付和贷款。

Lenny: Unit is trusted by leading brands such as AngelList, Highbeam, Invoice2go, and Roofstock.

Lenny：Unit 受到 AngelList、Highbeam、Invoice2go 和 Roofstock 等领先品牌的信赖。

To hear more about how Unit enables companies like yours to build banking, visit unit.co/lenny to request a demo or to try their free sandbox.

要了解有关 Unit 如何帮助像您这样的公司建立银行业务的更多信息，请访问unit.co/lenny 请求演示或尝试他们的免费沙箱。

That's unit.co/lenny.

这是unit.co/lenny。

Lenny: For someone that wants to do the work, but can't find a coach, can't afford a coach, is there something people can do on their own that you'd recommend to help them shift their mindset and do a lot of these things that you've been describing?

莱尼：对于那些想要做这项工作，但找不到教练，买不起教练的人来说，您建议人们可以自己做一些事情来帮助他们转变心态，并做很多您一直在描述的事情吗？

Ken Norton: Yeah, it's a great question.

肯·诺顿：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

Here's the secret about the coaching industry.

这是教练行业的秘密。

Anyone can call themselves a coach.

任何人都可以称自己为教练。

It's very democratized.

这是非常民主化的。

It's great.

这很棒。

There's no gatekeepers and barriers and there's no 500 licenses you have to go through.

没有看门人和障碍，也没有 500 个许可证。

Ken Norton: There are tons of great coaches who are at various different price levels, at different levels of accessibility.

肯·诺顿：有很多伟大的教练，他们的价格水平不同，可及性也不同。

And so, if you say, "I can't afford a coach," I might challenge that a little bit and say have you looked?

所以，如果你说，“我买不起教练”，我可能会对此提出质疑，并说你看过了吗？

Ken Norton: The other thing is that you don't need a coach who's done the job before.

肯·诺顿：另一件事是你不需要一个以前做过这项工作的教练。

I mean obviously I've done the job before, so I'm undermining part of my own selling point here.

我的意思是显然我以前做过这项工作，所以我在这里破坏了我自己的部分卖点。

But coaches are trained to coach people on any topic.

但教练接受过培训，可以在任何主题上指导人们。

So when I go through coach training, I can coach you on anything.

所以当我接受教练培训时，我可以指导你任何事情。

People can coach you on anything.

人们可以在任何事情上指导你。

Ken Norton: Sometimes even there might be power in having a coach that's never done the product management job because there won't be any cheating of starting to move into a more of advisor role or maybe as the coach either.

肯·诺顿：有时，即使有一位从未做过产品管理工作的教练也可能有权力，因为开始担任更多顾问角色或作为教练不会有任何作弊行为。

There may be, "Well, you tell me what should I should do," and the person would be like, "I don't know.

可能会说，“好吧，你告诉我应该做什么，”这个人会说，“我不知道。

I've never done this job.

我从来没有做过这个工作。

Let's go back to what you want." So there could be some benefit from that.

我们还是回到你想要的吧。”因此，这可能会带来一些好处。

Again, you don't have to have done that.

再说一次，你不必这样做。

Ken Norton: So I would say coaching is incredibly powerful.

肯·诺顿：所以我想说教练的力量非常强大。

I wish I'd had a coach much, much earlier in my career.

我希望在我职业生涯的早期就有一位教练。

And so, the answer may be coaching is more accessible than you thought.

因此，答案可能是辅导比您想象的更容易获得。

If not, I think the things that we're talking about here are internal understanding of what matters to you, your sense of purpose, this inner curiosity, and that could be harnessed at any age.

如果没有，我认为我们在这里讨论的是对对你来说重要的事情的内在理解、你的使命感、这种内在的好奇心，这些都可以在任何年龄段利用。

So just wondering about yourself at any point in your career, wondering what's important to you.

所以，在你职业生涯的任何阶段，想一想自己，想知道什么对你来说是重要的。

Ken Norton: I love doing values work, like, "What are your values?

肯·诺顿：我喜欢做价值观工作，比如“你的价值观是什么？

Okay.

好的。

No. What really are your values?" That's something you can do yourself.

不，你的价值观到底是什么？”这是你可以自己做的事情。

That's something you can question.

这是你可以质疑的。

You can read about, you can start to understand.

你可以阅读一下，你可以开始理解。

Ken Norton: Mentors can be great, especially mentors who are less about trying to tell you the right way and get you to follow directly their path, but are more they're applying some curiosity, asking questions, challenging you in certain ways, being a way that you can bounce ideas off of.

肯·诺顿：导师可能很棒，尤其是导师，他们不太会试图告诉你正确的方法并让你直接遵循他们的道路，但他们更多的是运用好奇心，提出问题，以某些方式挑战你，成为你可以激发想法的一种方式。

Ken Norton: Great managers, I think, especially the best product leaders, understand how to put the coach hat on and when it's appropriate to put the coach hat on, and are explicit about that, are like, "Okay, let me take off my manager hat now and put the coach hat on.

肯·诺顿：我认为，伟大的经理，尤其是最好的产品领导者，了解如何戴上教练帽以及何时适合戴上教练帽，并且明确表示，“好吧，让我现在脱下经理帽并戴上教练帽。

What do you really want to do, Lenny?

你到底想做什么，莱尼？

What's important to you?

什么对你来说很重要？

What's your career?" And so, I think you can get coaching from everywhere.

你的职业是什么？”所以，我认为你可以从任何地方得到指导。

Ken Norton: There's a lot of self-coaching you can do.

肯·诺顿：你可以做很多自我训练。

This is honestly one of the benefits for me having gone through tons of training and coaching is starting to coach myself, like feeling an emotion and asking myself coach questions.

老实说，这对我来说经历了大量的训练和辅导的好处之一就是开始自我辅导，比如感受一种情绪并问自己教练问题。

Really powerful.

真的很强大。

That's something you can do when you've had a coach.

这是当你有教练的时候你可以做的事情。

You can do it when you don't have a coach.

当你没有教练的时候你也可以做到。

You can explore it.

你可以探索一下。

Ken Norton: So I think this is really all about really being curious and wanting to understand who you really are at the core and what's important to you and what matters.

肯·诺顿：所以我认为这实际上就是真正的好奇，想要了解你的核心是谁，什么对你来说是重要的，什么是重要的。

That's something that can be done with or without a coach.

无论有或没有教练，这都是可以完成的事情。

Lenny: Are there any resources that you love for either the values work or learning these questions to ask yourself?

莱尼：有没有什么资源是你喜欢的，无论是价值观工作还是学习这些问题来问自己？

We can put them in the show notes if nothing comes to mind immediately.

如果暂时没有想到，我们可以将它们放入演出笔记中。

But is there something you recommend people check out?

但您有什么建议人们查看的吗？

Ken Norton: Yeah, there are some great books.

肯·诺顿：是的，有一些很棒的书。

Maybe I'll use this opportunity to throw out a couple suggestions.

也许我会利用这个机会提出一些建议。

Ken Norton: I guess we can link it into the show notes.

肯·诺顿：我想我们可以将其链接到演出笔记中。

Brene Brown's Dare to Lead.

布琳·布朗的《敢于领导》。

It's a good book.

这是一本好书。

She actually even has a whole section in there around values, confronting her values.

实际上，她甚至有一整个部分都是围绕价值观来面对她的价值观的。

I like her approach.

我喜欢她的做法。

There's some free resources on her website.

她的网站上有一些免费资源。

Ken Norton: I love Conscious Leadership Group's work here.

肯·诺顿：我喜欢意识领导小组在这里的工作。

The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership book is fantastic.

《自觉领导力的 15 条承诺》这本书非常棒。

You don't even need to buy the book.

您甚至不需要购买这本书。

There's a ton of stuff on their website.

他们的网站上有很多东西。

Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman and Kaley Warner Klemp are of the authors of that book.

吉姆·德特默、戴安娜·查普曼和凯利·沃纳·克伦普是该书的作者。

That's all about a lot of the stuff we've been talking about.

这就是我们一直在谈论的很多事情。

They're the ones that have the above the line versus below the line that fits into this creative versus reactive standpoint.

他们是那些在线上和线下的人，符合这种创造性与反应性的观点。

Those are all fantastic.

这些都太棒了。

Ken Norton: If you want to go deeper into more of the management science behind it, if you're like me and really curious about the psychology and the management science, Bob Anderson and Bill Adams's book, Mastering Leadership, creates the entire integrated system around creative versus reactive.

肯·诺顿：如果你想更深入地了解其背后的管理科学，如果你像我一样对心理学和管理科学非常好奇，鲍勃·安德森和比尔·亚当斯的书《掌握领导力》围绕创造性与反应性创建了整个集成系统。

Ken Norton: As a teaser, they identify five levels of leadership, of which reactive is the second, creative is the third.

肯·诺顿：作为一个预告片，他们确定了领导力的五个级别，其中反应性是第二个，创造性是第三个。

So beyond that, you get into integral and unitive.

除此之外，你会进入整体和统一的状态。

So if you're looking to unlock the advanced stages beyond creative, there's a lot of great stuff in there.

因此，如果您想解锁创意之外的高级阶段，那里有很多很棒的东西。

Those are where all the research comes in as well.

这些也是所有研究的切入点。

Ken Norton: From an adult development standpoint, Robert Kegan is the godfather of the adult-stage development work and the meaning-making that underlines a lot of this.

肯·诺顿：从成人发展的角度来看，罗伯特·基根是成人阶段发展工作的教父，也是强调这一点的意义建构的教父。

He has a great book called Immunity to Change if you're curious about that.

如果你对此感到好奇，他有一本很棒的书，名为《免疫改变》。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We will link to all those in the description of this podcast so folks don't have to Google around.

我们将链接到这个播客描述中的所有内容，这样人们就不必到处谷歌了。

I have a couple of more coaching questions before we move on to a few other topics.

在我们继续讨论其他几个话题之前，我还有几个辅导问题。

One is just what are you finding are the most common blind spots for product people in general?

一是您发现一般产品人员最常见的盲点是什么？

How are people shooting themselves in the foot most?

人们怎样最常搬起石头砸自己的脚？

Ken Norton: Oh, that's a great question.

肯·诺顿：哦，这是一个很好的问题。

I think probably the number one category, I'm not sure it's necessarily a problem, but maybe category or problems, is ...

我认为可能排名第一的类别，我不确定这一定是一个问题，但也许类别或问题是......

And this is, I think, great lesson for people earlier in their career, is how much all of the challenges that senior executives are dealing with come down to people versus product.

我认为，这对于职业生涯早期的人们来说是一个很好的教训，那就是高级管理人员面临的所有挑战在很大程度上都归结为人与产品。

So it's like it's fun to think about designing products, optimizing, doing user discovery, and testing what, but it's like you sit down with an executive and it's all about people.

因此，思考设计产品、优化、进行用户发现和测试内容似乎很有趣，但这就像你与一位高管坐下来一样，一切都与人有关。

Ken Norton: That's the hard part.

肯·诺顿：这是最困难的部分。

It's about persuading people, getting groups of people to want to work together, trying to figure out how to deal with difficult personalities, figuring out how to set a vision and articulate a vision, create an environment where people can collaborate and play.

它是关于说服人们，让一群人愿意一起工作，试图弄清楚如何处理困难的性格，弄清楚如何设定愿景并阐明愿景，创造一个人们可以协作和玩耍的环境。

Ken Norton: And so, I think this category of blind spot often is people being confronted with that without having been intentional about thinking of it as a skill or an area that they needed to work on, needed to improve.

肯·诺顿：所以，我认为这类盲点通常是人们在遇到这种情况时没有刻意地将其视为一种技能或他们需要努力、需要改进的领域。

Ken Norton: Part of what I think is pretty exciting about product management is you are a leader from day one in product management.

肯·诺顿：我认为产品管理非常令人兴奋的部分原因是，您从产品管理的第一天起就是一名领导者。

There's leadership all over the place, but that's your job.

到处都有领导，但那是你的工作。

You're a leader.

你是一个领导者。

You don't have any formal authority, but you're a leader.

你没有任何正式的权力，但你是一个领导者。

You're expected to lead.

你应该领导。

Ken Norton: Guess what?

肯·诺顿：你猜怎么着？

The hardest part about being a leader is when you don't get to just rely on the formal authority.

作为领导者最困难的部分是当你不能仅仅依赖正式的权威时。

So you're getting to practice all the hard parts about leadership from day one, because you're nobody's boss.

因此，从第一天起，你就必须练习领导力的所有困难部分，因为你不是任何人的老板。

You get to sharpen those skills, develop those intuitions, get better and better at that, so that when you do someday, if this is right for you, become someone else's boss, you've already been able to lean into that.

你必须磨练这些技能，培养这些直觉，在这方面做得越来越好，这样，当你有一天，如果这适合你，成为别人的老板时，你就已经能够做到这一点了。

Ken Norton: And so, the people side of this is such an incredible aspect of what product management is.

肯·诺顿：因此，人员方面是产品管理的一个令人难以置信的方面。

What I find, and this may be a category of blind spots, is people realizing that when they're put in a position where they're expected to have impact and realizing that they haven't developed the skills, they haven't developed the capability to actually be able to manage and work through all these people, which is ...

我发现，这可能是一类盲点，人们意识到，当他们被置于一个期望产生影响力的职位时，并意识到他们还没有发展出技能，他们还没有发展出真正能够管理和与所有这些人一起工作的能力，这是......

Lenny: How do you actually get better at that or develop those skills?

莱尼：你实际上是如何在这方面做得更好或发展这些技能的？

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

I just think recognizing it is part of the job.

我只是认为认识到这一点是工作的一部分。

It's important.

这很重要。

Maybe I came up at a certain time where it was often dismissed as soft skills.

也许在我出现的某个时候，它经常被视为软技能。

It's just like soft skills are helpful, but they're not actually something you want to work on.

这就像软技能很有帮助，但实际上并不是你想要培养的东西。

They're not something you train, not something you ...

它们不是你训练的东西，不是你...

Ken Norton: And this is just as important.

肯·诺顿：这同样重要。

This is the equal ...

这就是平等...

I wrote a piece recently about the art versus the science.

我最近写了一篇关于艺术与科学的文章。

The art is communication, collaboration, the more fuzzy, softer skills, people stuff.

艺术是沟通、协作、更模糊、更软的技能、人的东西。

It's an elevation of that being just as important, if not more important, over time, as all this skills, techniques, tactics, managing a backlog, all that kind of stuff that you have to do.

随着时间的推移，它与所有这些技能、技术、策略、管理积压工作以及所有你必须做的事情一样重要，甚至更重要。

You should invest in that the same way you invest in those other skills.

您应该像投资其他技能一样投资于此。

Ken Norton: So if you go off to a training to learn a technique for doing, I don't know, some sort of technical dashboard analysis, why don't you go to training to learn how to have difficult conversations?

肯·诺顿：所以，如果你去参加培训是为了学习一种技术，我不知道，某种技术仪表板分析，你为什么不去参加培训来学习如何进行困难的对话呢？

Because there's some great training about having difficult conversations, or do some training about storytelling.

因为有一些关于进行困难对话的很棒的培训，或者一些关于讲故事的培训。

These are all really, really important factors that start to come into play.

这些都是开始发挥作用的非常非常重要的因素。

Ken Norton: What I would recommend is just appreciating that these are going to really, really matter and practicing and then valuing them and not thinking of them as something that either will matter later or a distraction or not really part of the job.

肯·诺顿：我的建议是，认识到这些确实非常重要，并加以实践，然后重视它们，而不是认为它们是以后会很重要的东西，或者是一种干扰，或者不是工作的一部分。

Lenny: I think the reason people don't do that work is because it's so hard.

莱尼：我认为人们不做这项工作的原因是因为它太难了。

Difficult conversations are difficult.

困难的对话是困难的。

We talked about this with Trey Hass.

我们与特雷·哈斯讨论了这个问题。

But just like it's a rule of thumb, the thing that is hard is probably the thing you should be doing.

但就像经验法则一样，困难的事情可能就是你应该做的事情。

It's like a compass point of you to the thing you should do.

它就像一个指南针，指向你应该做的事情。

Ken Norton: Absolutely.

肯·诺顿：当然。

We are all about doing hard stuff, product managers.

产品经理，我们都是在做艰苦的事情。

That's what we're all about.

这就是我们的目的。

And so, when something seems hard and it seems squishy and it seems like it's difficult to put a three-step rule around, chances are it's really going to matter.

因此，当某件事看起来很难、很软、很难制定三步规则时，它很可能真的很重要。

It goes back to this mindset shift.

这可以追溯到这种心态的转变。

That means that there's an opportunity for you to readjust your inner complexity management system to adapt to that area of complexity that you're now seeing, because this stuff really feels squishy.

这意味着你有机会重新调整你的内部复杂性管理系统，以适应你现在看到的复杂性领域，因为这些东西真的感觉很脆弱。

And so, that's even more of a reason why you want to get your hands around it and grab onto it and value it and learn and grow from it.

因此，这更是你想要掌握它、抓住它、珍惜它、从中学习和成长的一个原因。

Lenny: Speaking of difficult and squishy, I'm guessing that one of the biggest challenges that people you work with face and one of the most recurring themes is imposter syndrome, people having imposter syndrome, something definitely I went through and it comes up a lot on this podcast.

莱尼：说到困难和棘手，我猜与你一起工作的人面临的最大挑战之一，也是最常见的主题之一是冒名顶替综合症，患有冒名顶替综合症的人，我肯定经历过这一点，并且在这个播客中经常出现。

What do you usually advise your clients to do when they're feeling imposter syndrome?

当你的客户感到冒名顶替综合症时，你通常建议他们做什么？

Ken Norton: Yeah, it's a great question.

肯·诺顿：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

I always get corrected to say imposter phenomenon by people in the psychology community, because I guess it's not a dysfunction.

我总是被心理学界的人纠正说冒名顶替现象，因为我猜这不是一种功能障碍。

And so, I've learned to use their terms.

因此，我学会了使用他们的术语。

But, yeah, I think just about everyone experiences it at some point.

但是，是的，我认为几乎每个人都会在某个时刻经历过这种情况。

Research shows that that definitely is born out ...

研究表明，这绝对是天生的......

It's really the moments when you're doubting your abilities or you feel like a fraud or you feel like you don't belong.

这确实是你怀疑自己的能力，或者感觉自己像个骗子，或者感觉自己不属于这里的时刻。

Ken Norton: It's funny because as I'm interrogating my own inner emotional state right now, I'm feeling it a little bit, because there's a part of me right now that's just like, "You're not a trained psychologist." When I said that whole thing, well, it's technically a phenomenon, there's a voice that was like, "What are you talking about?

肯·诺顿：这很有趣，因为当我现在审视自己的内心情绪状态时，我有一点感觉，因为现在我的一部分就像是，“你不是一个受过训练的心理学家。”当我说整件事时，嗯，这在技术上是一种现象，有一个声音，“你在说什么？

You don't know what you're talking about.

你不知道你在说什么。

Who are you on this?"

这件事上你是谁？”

Lenny: We'll put a disclaimer on the episode.

莱尼：我们会在这一集中添加免责声明。

Ken Norton: Yeah, I'm not a psychologist.

肯·诺顿：是的，我不是心理学家。

So, look, we all feel it.

所以，看，我们都感觉到了。

There's a part of me right now that's like I'm going to say the wrong thing and embarrass myself.

现在我的一部分感觉好像我会说错话，让自己难堪。

Product managers, product leaders maybe more so because the role is so cross-functional and ill-defined.

产品经理、产品领导者可能更是如此，因为这个角色是如此跨职能且定义不明确。

There's always going to be an edge of the job that you aren't as qualified as whoever you're interacting with.

工作中总会有一个优势，那就是你不如与你打交道的人那么合格。

It's the nature of it.

这是它的本质。

Look, we're never going to be as good as an engineer, as good as a designer, as good ...

看，我们永远不会像工程师一样优秀，像设计师一样优秀，一样优秀......

So there's all these opportunities for that.

所以有很多机会。

Ken Norton: I find, certainly from client work, that there is a little bit of a softening and solidarity just knowing that.

肯·诺顿：我发现，当然是从客户工作中，只要知道这一点，就会有一点软化和团结。

I'm just like, "Oh, you have that, too?

我只是想，“哦，你也有这个吗？

Oh, I have that.

哦，我有那个。

Yeah, there's some value to that."

是的，这有一定的价值。”

Ken Norton: I think it's important to pause here and say that there is the risk of dismissing or even maybe weaponizing imposter phenomenon against particular populations, particularly women, people of color of all genders, women of color especially, who are facing real external feedback and doubt about their abilities.

肯·诺顿：我认为重要的是在这里暂停一下，并说存在着忽视甚至可能武器化针对特定人群的冒名顶替现象的风险，特别是女性、所有性别的有色人种，尤其是有色人种女性，她们面临着真实的外部反馈和对自己能力的怀疑。

Ken Norton: The environment is reinforcing and the source of a lot of this stuff, microaggressions, bias, real aggressions.

肯·诺顿：环境正在强化，也是许多此类东西的根源，微攻击、偏见、真正的攻击。

And so, I think we always have to be careful in the helping professions to not dismiss it as a problem that just shifts the obligation to the person.

因此，我认为我们在帮助行业中始终必须小心，不要将其视为一个只会将义务转移给个人的问题而忽视。

So it's like, "Oh, that's just your imposter syndrome.

所以这就像是，“哦，这就是你的冒名顶替综合症。

Deal with it." Well, it's really easy to overlook all these systemic issues that are leading to that imposter syndrome.

处理一下吧。”嗯，我们很容易忽视所有这些导致冒名顶替综合症的系统性问题。

Ken Norton: So the leaders I work with, I think we have a special obligation both to confront our own inner dynamic, but also to recognize what our role is in the broader environment that might be contributing to some of this stuff.

肯·诺顿：所以，与我一起工作的领导者，我认为我们有特殊的义务，既要面对我们自己的内在动力，又要认识到我们在更广泛的环境中所扮演的角色可能会导致某些问题。

If you're a leader, you have a special obligation to dismantle those, not when you're meeting with your people, be like, "Ah, it's just your imposter syndrome.

如果你是领导者，你就有特殊的义务消除这些，而不是当你与你的员工会面时，说，“啊，这只是你的冒名顶替综合症。

You can work through it.

你可以解决它。

Hire a coach," but to be able to recognize, "Okay, wait, what signals are you getting?

聘请一名教练，”但要能够认识到，“好吧，等等，你收到了什么信号？

What issues are contributing to this?

哪些问题导致了这种情况？

What's our role in needing to change that?" So I think that's worth pointing out.

我们在需要改变这一点方面扮演什么角色？”所以我认为这一点值得指出。

Ken Norton: By the way, there's a great article in Harvard Business Review from a couple of years ago.

肯·诺顿：顺便说一句，几年前《哈佛商业评论》上有一篇很棒的文章。

I think the title was literally Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome.

我认为标题实际上是“停止告诉女性她们患有冒名顶替综合症”。

The two authors of that were Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey, if you're curious and you want to go into more depth on that.

如果您好奇并且想更深入地了解的话，该书的两位作者是 Ruchika Tulshyan 和 Jodi-Ann Burey。

Ken Norton: As coaches there, there's all sorts of ways we're trained to work with this.

肯·诺顿：作为那里的教练，我们接受了各种方法来处理这个问题。

Oftentimes as an inner critic and inner voice, we all have voices, saboteurs.

通常，作为内心的批评者和内心的声音，我们都有声音、破坏者。

They're often trying to help us, they have good intentions, but they're developed to try to protect us in certain ways.

他们经常试图帮助我们，他们有良好的意图，但他们的发展目的是试图以某些方式保护我们。

So gaining awareness of those, just sort of like, "Oh, that is an inner critic.

因此，要意识到这些，就像，“哦，这是一个内心的批评家。

That's what it's trying to do." There's a self-distancing that's valuable to that, really kind of ...

这就是它正在努力做的事情。”自我疏远对此很有价值，真的有点......

Ken Norton: I like to think of it a little bit as you got inner border directors, and there's some noisy, chatty voices that every so often sit in the chairperson's seat and start taking over.

肯·诺顿：我喜欢这样想，因为你有内部边境主管，并且有一些吵闹、闲聊的声音，时不时地坐在主席的座位上并开始接管。

If you start to recognize, "Wait, no, I'm the chairperson.

如果你开始意识到，“等等，不，我是主席。

I don't want to hear from you right now.

我现在不想听到你的消息。

We'll hear from you later," it starts to create some power and you start to notice when it's happening.

我们稍后会收到你的消息，”它开始产生一些力量，你开始注意到它何时发生。

Ken Norton: We bypass inner critic sometimes as a classic coaching technique.

肯·诺顿：有时我们会绕过内心的批评，作为一种经典的教练技巧。

It's like, "Okay, I'm sounding that's your inner critic is saying that.

就像是，“好吧，我听起来那是你内心的批评家这么说的。

What if we just ask it to maybe step aside?

如果我们只是要求它让位怎么办？

Let's keep talking here."

我们就在这里继续聊吧。”

Ken Norton: You can befriend it.

肯·诺顿：你可以和它交朋友。

There's a lot of practices and works just actually trying to understand what its motivations are.

有很多实践和工作实际上只是试图理解其动机是什么。

You can think of it as a board.

您可以将其视为一块板。

Give this board member a new job, put it on a new committee, reassign it.

给这位董事会成员一个新的工作，把它放到一个新的委员会中，重新分配它。

Ken Norton: There's oftentimes underlying belief systems.

肯·诺顿：通常存在潜在的信仰体系。

We talked before about my impression of what a real leader was and who they had to be.

我们之前讨论过我对什么是真正的领导者以及他们必须成为什么样的人的印象。

And so, hey, when all those second-guessing of me not being a real leader, of me not being qualified came from some of those underlying assumptions, that that was the only type of leader that was effective, was somebody that was slamming their fist out on the table.

所以，嘿，当所有那些对我不是真正的领导者、对我不合格的质疑都来自于一些潜在的假设时，那就是，这是唯一有效的领导者类型，就是那些用拳头猛击桌子的人。

Ken Norton: Okay, so what if we redefine that?

肯·诺顿：好吧，那如果我们重新定义一下呢？

I'm too kind to be a leader.

我太善良了，不适合当领导。

I'm not dominating, commanding enough.

我的统治力不够，指挥力不够。

When you hear a client say that as a coach, you recognize, okay, there's a connection being made here between what effective leadership is and isn't.

当你听到客户这样说时，作为一名教练，你会意识到，好吧，有效领导力与无效领导力之间存在着联系。

Let's interrogate that connection.

让我们来探究一下这种联系。

Is that connection actually true?

这种联系真的是真的吗？

Ken Norton: Again, it get backs to this question of you're often responding to other styles, approaches you've seen.

肯·诺顿：同样，这又回到了你经常回应你所见过的其他风格和方法的问题。

You're comparing yourself to others.

你正在将自己与他人进行比较。

So this is the reactive mindset of I'm always comparing myself to that person, to that wave, that being, and seeing myself as lesser then.

所以这就是我总是将自己与那个人、那个波浪、那个存在进行比较的反应性心态，并认为自己比那时低。

And so, the inner work of starting to see who I really am truly inside and less comparing myself to others.

因此，内在的工作是开始看到我内心真正的自己，而不是将自己与他人进行比较。

Ken Norton: But, yeah, imposter phenomenon, syndrome, whatever you want to call it, very common and very popular, I suppose.

肯·诺顿：但是，是的，冒名顶替现象、综合症，无论你想怎么称呼它，我想都是非常常见和流行的。

Although when I say popular, it's like popular like a play.

虽然当我说流行时，它就像流行一样。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

Another inner critic tactic I've heard that I used for a bit that was helpful is to give your inner critic a name, like Jim.

我听说我用过的另一个有用的内心批评策略是给你的内心批评者一个名字，比如吉姆。

I mean like, "Jim, not right now.

我的意思是，“吉姆，现在不行。

I don't need you right now." That kind of helps.

我现在不需要你。”这很有帮助。

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

There is a whole school of coaching that I've worked with that's called parts work or internal family systems.

我曾合作过一整套教练体系，称为“部分工作”或“内部家庭系统”。

It comes from a psychologist named Richard Schwartz who determined this.

它来自一位名叫理查德施瓦茨的心理学家，他确定了这一点。

It can be really, really powerful.

它真的非常非常强大。

Ken Norton: I'll word my clients and we will give them names.

肯·诺顿：我会告诉我的客户，我们会给他们起名字。

We will imagine what they look like.

我们会想象它们的样子。

They will interview these parts.

他们将采访这些部分。

If you've seen the Pixar movie Inside Out, this notion that like, hey, all these different parts show up in different ways.

如果你看过皮克斯的电影《头脑特工队》，你就会明白，嘿，所有这些不同的部分都以不同的方式出现。

I'm going to put myself, the real me, the real self into the chairperson's seat.

我要把我自己，真正的我，真正的自己放到主席的座位上。

When I hear these voices, I'm going to appreciate them from what they are and who they are.

当我听到这些声音时，我会欣赏他们的本质和身份。

They're not me.

他们不是我。

They're parts of me.

他们是我的一部分。

Ken Norton: There's something really powerful in that, in that sense of like ...

肯·诺顿：这里面有一些非常强大的东西，就像......

Because, otherwise, they're all me.

因为，否则的话，他们都是我。

So I just hear this voice telling me I'm an idiot and I'm a clown and I'm not qualified to be in this room.

所以我只是听到这个声音告诉我我是个白痴，我是个小丑，我没有资格呆在这个房间里。

Then when you can start to go, "Oh, yeah, there it is.

然后当你可以开始时，“哦，是的，就在那里。

That's Larry Loser.

那是拉里·洛瑟。

My big angry, irritating judge who's, of course ...

我那个愤怒、令人恼火的法官，当然是……

Oh, yeah, Larry always shows up every time I do something new, because Larry doesn't want me to challenge myself.

哦，是的，每当我做新的事情时，拉里总是出现，因为拉里不想让我挑战自己。

So, of course, Larry's going to pipe in.

所以，拉里当然会插话。

I've heard from Larry.

我收到拉里的来信。

I'm going to ask Larry to step aside.

我要请拉里退到一边。

Let's go." Yeah, it can be very powerful.

我们走吧。”是的，它可以非常强大。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

One last question about coaching.

最后一个关于教练的问题。

For folks that want to find a coach, do you have any advice of just how to find a coach, and then what are a couple questions you can ask to evaluate if they're a good fit for you?

对于想要寻找教练的人，您对如何寻找教练有什么建议吗？然后您可以提出哪些问题来评估他们是否适合您？

Ken Norton: Yeah, great question.

肯·诺顿：是的，很好的问题。

So I think, like any helping profession, finding a therapist or really anyone who you're going to have a deep and lasting relationship with, this sort of trust and authenticity is really important.

所以我认为，就像任何帮助性职业一样，寻找治疗师或任何你将与之建立深厚而持久关系的人，这种信任和真实性非常重要。

I think we all, as coaches, recognize, and we feel this as well with clients, is it either has to be a fit or not.

我认为，作为教练，我们都认识到这一点，我们对客户也有同样的感觉，无论它是否合适。

Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on it.

有时很难将手指放在上面。

Sometimes you meet with someone and you're like, "Yeah, it clicks.

有时你遇到某人时你会说：“是的，很合拍。

It feels right." Sometimes you're like, "Eh, it doesn't," and that's okay.

感觉不错。”有时你会说，“呃，不是的”，那没关系。

And so, all coaches worth their salt will offer a free session to understand that, engage that.

因此，所有称职的教练都会提供免费课程来了解这一点，参与其中。

Ken Norton: I always tell everyone in that session, if you don't decide to work with me or I decide ...

肯·诺顿：我总是告诉会议上的每个人，如果你们不决定与我合作或者我决定......

We don't need a reason.

我们不需要理由。

It's fine.

没关系。

It's just not a fit, and that's okay.

只是不合适而已，没关系。

You don't need to come up with bullet point reasons to let me down.

你不需要提出让我失望的要点理由。

It's part of how it goes.

这是事情进展的一部分。

Ken Norton: You might prefer certain people, certain gender, certain backgrounds.

肯·诺顿：你可能更喜欢某些人、某些性别、某些背景。

You may feel more comfortable or less comfortable with ...

您可能会感觉更舒服或更不舒服......

Maybe you want an old guy like me.

也许你想要一个像我这样的老家伙。

Maybe you want an old guy like me, and that's fine.

也许你想要一个像我这样的老家伙，那很好。

It has to feel right.

它必须感觉正确。

Ken Norton: I would ask them to talk to you about what coaching is to them, because, again, it might combine some of these more mentory things.

肯·诺顿：我会请他们和你谈谈教练对他们来说意味着什么，因为它可能会结合一些更多的指导性的东西。

It might be more tactical.

这可能更具战术性。

Some coaches are more structured, "Week one, we're going to do this.

有些教练更有条理，“第一周，我们就会这样做。

Week two, we're going to do this.

第二周，我们将这样做。

Week ...

周...

" Others are more pure coaches like me, where, look, within the first five minutes, I'm going to ask you what you want to talk about today, because you're bringing the agenda.

“其他人是像我这样更纯粹的教练，在前五分钟内，我会问你今天想谈什么，因为你带来了议程。

So figure that out.

所以弄清楚这一点。

Figure out what works for you.

弄清楚什么对你有用。

Ken Norton: Then I think there's a lot of great places to go.

肯·诺顿：那么我认为还有很多好地方可以去。

Actually, specifically where to go, the International Coaching Federation is our governing body.

其实具体到哪里去，国际教练联合会是我们的管理机构。

So those of us that are credentialed coaches you'll find there.

所以你会在那里找到我们这些有资格的教练。

Again, you don't have to be credentialed, but that'll be a great place to find people who are.

再说一遍，您不必获得资格认证，但这将是寻找拥有资格认证的人的好地方。

Ken Norton: There are some matchmaking services, BetterUp, Torch, or some of the more accessible ones.

肯·诺顿：有一些婚介服务，BetterUp、Torch 或一些更容易访问的服务。

There's one called Prismaticco.

有一种叫Prismaticco。

It's a little bit more higher end for more senior execs.

对于更高级的管理人员来说，这是更高端的一点。

Scale just put out a list of top coaches who work with product managers and product leaders, all sorts of great coaches.

Scale刚刚列出了一份与产品经理和产品负责人一起工作的顶级教练名单，他们都是各种各样的优秀教练。

We can include that link.

我们可以包含该链接。

Lenny, I think you're involved.

莱尼，我想你也参与其中。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Congrats on winning one of their categories for best coach of ...

恭喜您赢得了最佳教练类别之一......

Which category was that?

那是哪一类？

Ken Norton: Product leaders.

肯·诺顿：产品领导者。

So, yeah, this was just a setup for you to say that.

所以，是的，这只是你这么说的一个安排。

But thank you.

但谢谢你。

But there's tons of great coach, and different styles, different stages of careers.

但是有很多伟大的教练，有不同的风格，不同的职业阶段。

I think all those folks have work with or have worked with product folks.

我认为所有这些人都曾与产品人员一起工作过。

Ken Norton: And so, again, just talk to a few.

肯·诺顿：所以，再一次，只与一些人交谈。

Reach out to a few.

联系一些人。

Ask them.

问问他们。

If you're looking for more names, ask people who you admire, whose leadership styles you like and want to emulate, who they recommend, because oftentimes they have a better understanding of, hey, this is the type of coach that may want to work with, more of the emotional work, or this is the type of coach who actually maybe has a more compatible vision of what you're looking for, because, look, all coaches are different.

如果你正在寻找更多的名字，问问你钦佩的人，你喜欢并想模仿谁的领导风格，他们推荐谁，因为通常他们有更好的理解，嘿，这是一种可能想要合作的教练，更多的情感工作，或者这种类型的教练实际上可能对你正在寻找的东西有更兼容的愿景，因为，看，所有的教练都是不同的。

You can tell I'm a touchy-feely heart coach.

你可以看出我是一个敏感的心灵教练。

Ken Norton: There are coaches who are ...

肯·诺顿：有些教练......

Sometimes people want a coach and they're just like, "You grab that brass ring.

有时人们想要一位教练，他们就会说，“你抓住那个铜环。

We're going to pound the table.

我们要拍桌子了。

I'm going to push you.

我来推你一下。

I'm going to challenge you.

我要挑战你。

I'm going to beat you up.

我要打败你。

I'm going to be more of a drill sergeant." That's a different style of coach that works with other people.

我将更像一名教官。”这是一种与其他人合作的不同风格的教练。

That may be more what you're looking for.

这可能更符合您的需求。

Ken Norton: So I would just talk to a bunch, do some free sessions, get an opportunity to explore it.

肯·诺顿：所以我会和一群人交谈，进行一些免费会议，并有机会探索它。

I coach people in the free session.

我在免费课程中指导人们。

So it's not just like we're talking.

所以这不仅仅是我们在谈论。

We're going to talk about something.

我们要谈谈一些事情。

I'm going to coach you.

我来辅导你。

You're going to get a sense of what this looks like.

您将会了解这是什么样子的。

Then come away and just ask yourself, what are your goals and where was there a fit?

然后走开，问问自己，你的目标是什么，哪里适合？

If there's not, just keep looking.

如果没有，就继续寻找。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That was very tactically helpful.

这在战术上非常有帮助。

I really appreciate all those resources.

我真的很感谢所有这些资源。

We'll definitely link to all that in the description.

我们肯定会链接到描述中的所有内容。

I have just a couple questions I wanted to ask you outside of coaching, around some of your posts that you've written before we get to our exciting lightning round.

在教练之外，我想问你几个问题，围绕你在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前写的一些帖子。

One is around this idea of 10X versus 10%.

一个是围绕 10X 与 10% 的想法。

Lenny: So you wrote this post about the importance of thinking 10X versus 10%.

Lenny：所以你写了这篇文章，讲述 10X 与 10% 思考的重要性。

Truthfully, I actually had a post started, "10X versus 10%." I was like, "Oh, this is going to be great." Then I Googled, "Oh, Ken's already written about it." So I'm glad that you have written about it and written about it so well.

说实话，我实际上已经开始了一篇文章，“10X vs 10%”。我当时想，“哦，这会很棒。”然后我用谷歌搜索，“哦，肯已经写过相关文章了。”所以我很高兴你写了这篇文章并且写得这么好。

Ken Norton: Great minds think alike, as they say.

肯·诺顿：正如人们所说，英雄所见略同。

Lenny: Now I don't have to write it.

莱尼：现在我不用写了。

I'd love to just hear your general take on what this idea is and how to think about 10X or 10% bets.

我很想听听您对这个想法的总体看法以及如何考虑 10 倍或 10% 的赌注。

Ken Norton: Again, I'm a great synthesizer of ideas.

肯·诺顿：再说一次，我是一个伟大的思想综合者。

This isn't my idea.

这不是我的主意。

This is a lot of ...

这是很多...

It came from some thinking at Google and some push.

它来自谷歌的一些思考和一些推动。

I think it's really the sense that we think too small sometimes.

我认为这确实是我们有时想得太小了的感觉。

You'll see that as a theme for some of the other things I've written too.

您也会将其视为我所写的其他一些内容的主题。

There needs to be a push.

需要有推动力。

If you really want to have huge breakthrough innovation, you need to be able to try, you need to be able to fail.

如果你真的想有巨大的突破性创新，你需要能够尝试，你需要能够失败。

You need to be able to shoot for the moon is where this 10X comes from.

你需要能够拍摄月球，这就是 10X 的由来。

Ken Norton: A lot of it is mindset, but a lot of it is also cultural.

肯·诺顿：很多是心态，但很多也是文化。

It's creating environments where ...

它正在创造环境......

And I had the great privilege of working at Google for 14 years.

我非常荣幸能够在 Google 工作 14 年。

I felt like it was definitely an environment that I got to play in, of being willing to take big swings that might fail.

我觉得这绝对是一个我必须参与的环境，愿意接受可能会失败的重大转变。

Ken Norton: This doesn't mean that the company could all be out of business tomorrow.

肯·诺顿：这并不意味着公司明天就会全部倒闭。

But it's like if you have a choice between trying something that could have a massive breakthrough, a massive change, and playing small ball where you're going to get a bunch of 10% improvements, you are over time, if you're willing to try, if you're willing to fail, if you're willing to push yourself, if you're willing to think bigger, if you're willing to create environments, great ideas come from places that are unexpected, you'll achieve massive, massive breakthrough.

但这就像，如果你可以选择尝试一些可能有巨大突破、巨大改变的事情，还是玩小球，让你获得一堆 10% 的改进，随着时间的推移，如果你愿意尝试，如果你愿意失败，如果你愿意推动自己，如果你愿意思考更大，如果你愿意创造环境，伟大的想法来自意想不到的地方，你就会实现巨大的突破。

Ken Norton: You can find the piece on my website, because I use examples from history, but it is a little bit of being brave and trying big things.

肯·诺顿：你可以在我的网站上找到这篇文章，因为我使用了历史上的例子，但它有点勇敢和尝试大事。

If you look at all the great technology, the huge breakthrough innovations that we've had, the coronavirus vaccine, just this ...

如果你看看所有伟大的技术，我们拥有的巨大突破性创新，冠状病毒疫苗，就是这个......

Man, there is no small balling that.

伙计，这可不是小事。

That was a big, big swing that there was no guarantee of success, but we were willing to try it.

这是一个非常非常大的转变，无法保证成功，但我们愿意尝试。

We were willing to fail knowing that failure was probably the more likely outcome in the chance that we would achieve something that would really have that level of breakthrough.

我们愿意失败，因为我们知道失败可能是更有可能的结果，因为我们有机会取得真正具有突破性的成果。

Ken Norton: And so, I think it is what I always challenge leaders to do is create the environment where people can step in and bring those types of ideas, and not play it safe or not be like, "Ah, boy, that seems like a big one.

肯·诺顿：所以，我认为我总是挑战领导者做的是创造一个环境，让人们可以介入并提出这些类型的想法，而不是谨慎行事或不喜欢，“啊，孩子，这似乎是一个大问题。

If we bring that to the CEO, there's no way they'll take a chance.

如果我们把这个告诉首席执行官，他们就不会冒险。

So let's ramp down our expectations.

因此，让我们降低我们的期望。

Let's bring this little idea in that is a little bit more guaranteed to work."

让我们把这个小想法引入其中，这样更有保证行之有效。”

Ken Norton: And so, it is the obligation of leaders to create that environment for people to be able to innovate, because the ideas are out there.

肯·诺顿：因此，领导者有义务为人们创造能够创新的环境，因为想法就在那里。

I use the example of Kodak.

我以柯达为例。

Kodak invented the digital camera.

柯达发明了数码相机。

It wasn't like, oh, people at Kodak were dumb.

哦，柯达的人并不傻。

They didn't know digital was coming.

他们不知道数字化即将到来。

No, they literally invented the digital camera.

不，他们确实发明了数码相机。

There just wasn't an environment created where the people who had that idea, who saw that potential, who saw that possibility could step up through the plate and try.

只是没有创造一个环境，让那些有这个想法、看到这种潜力、看到这种可能性的人能够挺身而出并尝试。

Lenny: Do you have any rules of thumb of how many of your ideas/resources should go into these big ideas versus incremental 10% bets, or is the general advice just like people aren't thinking big enough, often enough, so you should always think a little bit bigger than you naturally will?

Lenny：对于应该将多少想法/资源投入到这些伟大的想法中，而不是增量 10% 的赌注，你有什么经验法则吗？或者一般建议就像人们的想法不够大，经常不够，所以你应该总是比你自然的想法更大一点？

Ken Norton: I think it depends.

肯·诺顿：我认为这要看情况。

I mean it depends on the company.

我的意思是这取决于公司。

If you work in R&D, in labs, maybe everything is in that category and you build a portfolio.

如果你在研发部门、实验室工作，也许所有东西都属于这个类别，你会建立一个投资组合。

If you're a venture capital seed investor, or if you're working at a research lab, it's like you're building a huge portfolio of these bets.

如果您是风险投资种子投资者，或者您在研究实验室工作，那么您就好像正在建立一个巨大的投资组合。

You're just assuming that maybe 99 of them will fail, but one will succeed and it'll make it all worthwhile.

你只是假设其中 99 个会失败，但其中一个会成功，这会让一切都值得。

Ken Norton: Most of us aren't in those environments.

肯·诺顿：我们大多数人都不在那种环境中。

We're in places where we have real customers buying our products, wanting our products, using our products.

我们所在的地方有真正的客户购买我们的产品、想要我们的产品、使用我们的产品。

We're like, "Let's bet the entire company own 50 things that may not work out." It may not be right for you.

我们会说，“我们打赌整个公司都有 50 件可能行不通的事情。”它可能不适合您。

Ken Norton: So I think it is a little bit of an approach.

肯·诺顿：所以我认为这是一种方法。

I think it needs to be thought of in a fractal way, though, because maybe at the company level, they're thinking Google once upon a time had a 70-20-10 thing, whereas 70% is our core business.

不过，我认为这需要以分形的方式来考虑，因为也许在公司层面，他们认为谷歌曾经有过 70-20-10 的事情，而 70% 是我们的核心业务。

It's the time we're searching ads.

这是我们搜索广告的时间。

20% is adjacent business, and then 10% on crazy bets that may not be anything.

20% 是相关业务，然后 10% 是疯狂的赌注，可能没什么。

Ken Norton: But I think that's at the company level.

肯·诺顿：但我认为这是公司层面的。

At the individual level, at your team level, you might have your own way of thinking.

在个人层面，在团队层面，你可能有自己的思维方式。

You're just like, okay, I've got 12 engineers on the team.

你会说，好吧，我的团队里有 12 名工程师。

We're working on, at any time, a bunch of stuff that we know we have to do.

我们随时都在做一些我们知道必须做的事情。

This is a bunch of stuff that we hope is like 10%.

这是一堆我们希望达到 10% 左右的东西。

Then we're going to create some space for some innovation.

然后我们将为一些创新创造一些空间。

Maybe it's just one engineer every sprint, or it's like a couple of times a year.

也许每次冲刺只有一名工程师，或者一年几次。

Ken Norton: You create that type of space in your own little air bubble that isn't necessarily at the portfolio level, to try things that may not work.

肯·诺顿：你在自己的小气泡中创造了这种类型的空间，不一定是在投资组合层面，来尝试可能行不通的事情。

But if they do, the payoff will be so substantial that it'll make the whole thing worthwhile.

但如果他们这样做了，回报将会非常巨大，让整个事情变得值得。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Very helpful.

非常有帮助。

Next question is around I think your most popular post that you've ever written, and maybe the thing that put you on the radar of writing, is around how to hire a product manager.

下一个问题是关于如何雇用产品经理的，我认为您写过的最受欢迎的帖子，也许让您受到写作关注的事情。

Maybe this is where you mentioned donuts the first time.

也许这是你第一次提到甜甜圈的地方。

Is that right, or no?

这是对还是不对？

Ken Norton: It's funny.

肯·诺顿：这很有趣。

I think that was later.

我想那是后来的事了。

Ken Norton: Yeah, I think that was a talk that came after that.

肯·诺顿：是的，我认为那是在那之后的一次谈话。

Ken Norton: Yeah, that was definitely the big one for me.

肯·诺顿：是的，这对我来说绝对是一件大事。

Lenny: So here's the question, just to keep it simple, what's one piece of advice that you would give people trying to hire a product manager?

莱尼：所以问题是，为了简单起见，您会给那些试图聘请产品经理的人什么建议？

What's the thing that you think is most maybe missed or useful?

您认为最可能被错过或最有用的东西是什么？

Ken Norton: Yeah, I think the intangibles.

肯·诺顿：是的，我认为是无形资产。

So basically I wrote that originally as an email, that it was a copy pasta thing for me, where people kept coming to me and being like, "Hey, I think we're going to try to hire a product manager or a company.

所以基本上我最初是用电子邮件的形式写的，这对我来说是复制意大利面的事情，人们不断地来找我，说：“嘿，我认为我们将尝试聘请一名产品经理或一家公司。

Can you send over a sample job description?" I'd be like, "Yeah.

您可以发送一份工作描述样本吗？”我会说：“是啊。

Before we write the job description, let's talk about what the job is, because I'm not sure we all mean the same thing." And so, then I wrote that ...

在我们写职位描述之前，让我们先讨论一下这份工作是什么，因为我不确定我们的意思都是一样的。”所以，然后我写了......

It was in 2005, so this goes back ...

那是在2005年，所以这可以追溯到......

to try to define what the role actually is.

尝试定义角色的实际含义。

Ken Norton: I actually feel like maybe the pendulum shifted way too far now where it's the interview process is so structured.

肯·诺顿：我实际上觉得现在的面试过程是如此结构化，也许钟摆已经移动得太远了。

Everyone's doing all these mock.

每个人都在做这些嘲笑。

They know exactly what questions they're going to get.

他们清楚地知道自己会被问到什么问题。

It's SAT prep.

这是 SAT 准备。

Everyone's ready.

大家都准备好了。

But we've missed out with can they do the job?

但我们错过了他们能完成这项工作吗？

Because it's like they can pass the interview, but can they do the job?

因为好像他们可以通过面试，但是他们能胜任这份工作吗？

Ken Norton: And so, I think you have to be careful.

肯·诺顿：所以，我认为你必须小心。

This is particularly the case if you are a smaller company.

如果您是一家规模较小的公司，情况尤其如此。

You don't have a huge apparatus of Google and Meta, where you've got interviewing monolith of getting persuaded into ...

你没有像 Google 和 Meta 这样庞大的设备，在那里你可以采访被说服的庞然大物......

Maybe this goes back a little bit to the science and the art.

也许这可以追溯到科学和艺术。

They passed all the technical questions.

他们通过了所有技术问题。

They do all this, they do all that.

他们做这一切，他们做那一切。

They do all that.

他们做这一切。

But then you neglect to find out can this person show up and work with these engineers, these designers?

但你却忽略了这个人是否可以出现并与这些工程师、这些设计师一起工作？

Can they inspire them?

能激励他们吗？

Is this somebody that they want to follow?

这是他们想要跟随的人吗？

Do they have the right mindset for what this job entails?

他们对这份工作有正确的心态吗？

Do we even have an agreement on what their job is going to be?

我们是否就他们的工作内容达成一致？

Ken Norton: The number of people you see earlier in their career will be like, "Well, I thought I was hiring for this, but it turns that's not even product management," or it was like, "I thought I was going to do this, but all they want me to do is build fee." It's like how'd that not come out in the group process?

肯·诺顿：你在职业生涯早期看到的很多人会说，“好吧，我以为我是为此招聘的，但事实证明这甚至不是产品管理”，或者就像是，“我以为我会这样做，但他们希望我做的只是构建费用。”这怎么会在小组过程中没有出现呢？

It's like, well, I know how it didn't come out because they answered a whole bunch of structured questions around ...

就像，嗯，我知道它是如何没有结果的，因为他们回答了一大堆围绕......的结构化问题。

They did a programming exercise and they did a presentation and nobody stopped to ask.

他们进行了编程练习并进行了演示，但没有人停下来询问。

Ken Norton: And so, I think that's really the big thing from an interviewer perspective.

肯·诺顿：所以，我认为从面试官的角度来看，这确实是一件大事。

I think same thing goes for the candidate's perspective.

我认为候选人的观点也是如此。

You are interviewing a potential employer.

您正在面试一位潜在雇主。

You're interviewing a boss.

你正在面试一位老板。

You're interviewing coworkers.

你正在面试同事。

What do you want?

你想要什么？

What do you care about?

你关心什么？

What is the type of place you want to be in?

您想去的地方是什么类型？

What do you not want to be in?

你不想参与什么？

How are you evaluating that?

您对此有何评价？

How are you asking those questions?

你怎么问这些问题？

Ken Norton: Yeah, salary matters, title.

肯·诺顿：是的，薪水很重要，头衔也很重要。

All that kind of stuff matters.

所有这些事情都很重要。

But you're interviewing a place to plop yourself into.

但你正在面试一个让自己陷入困境的地方。

How are you approaching that to make sure you're making the right decision?

您如何处理这个问题以确保做出正确的决定？

Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round, where I'm going to ask you a few questions and whatever comes to mind, just give me an answer.

莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合，我将问你们几个问题，无论想到什么，请给我答案。

That's it.

就是这样。

Very simple.

很简单。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Ken Norton: Yeah.

肯·诺顿：是的。

Inner critic is raging right now.

内心的批评家现在正在肆虐。

Lenny: Oh, no. Real-time imposter syndrome.

莱尼：哦，不。实时冒名顶替综合症。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So question one, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

那么问题一，您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Ken Norton: Oh, 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership.

肯·诺顿：哦，自觉领导力的 15 项承诺。

Definitely on that book.

肯定在那本书上。

I'd just add books I've never recommended before.

我只是添加我以前从未推荐过的书籍。

Probably Innovators Dilemma.

可能是创新者困境。

It's probably my number one favorite book for product managers and product leaders.

对于产品经理和产品领导者来说，这可能是我最喜欢的第一本书。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

What's a recent movie or TV show that you've liked?

您最近喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Ken Norton: I love Ms. Marvel.

肯·诺顿：我爱惊奇女士。

My whole family were really enjoying it.

我的全家人都非常享受它。

I love all the MCU stuff.

我喜欢所有 MCU 的东西。

We just eat it up.

我们只是把它吃掉。

Ms. Marvel has been amazing.

惊奇女士太棒了。

Then watching Barry, which is crazy.

然后看巴里，这太疯狂了。

It's sort of like nothing else I think ever on TV.

这有点像我在电视上看到的任何东西。

Then, over the last year, probably Severance.

然后，在过去的一年里，可能是遣散费。

It's my favorite program over the last ...

这是我最近最喜欢的节目...

I'd say last year.

我想说去年。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Yeah.

是的。

That is a trippy show.

那是一场迷幻的表演。

I've watched it all.

我都看过了。

We might be severed people, we don't even know.

我们可能是被切断的人，我们甚至不知道。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask folks when you interview them?

当你面试人们时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？

Ken Norton: Well, actually let me flip it because I just talked about interviewing as the interview ...

肯·诺顿：好吧，实际上让我翻转一下，因为我刚刚谈到面试就是面试......

Maybe I'll ask a favorite question for people who are being interviewed to ask the employer.

也许我会问那些正在面试的人最喜欢问雇主的问题。

Is that fair or is that turn the tables too much?

这公平吗？还是说这太扭转局面了？

Ken Norton: I think a great question ...

肯·诺顿：我认为这是一个很好的问题......

Actually maybe I have a couple.

事实上也许我有几个。

I think one question that I love is how does the company define a product team?

我认为我喜欢的一个问题是公司如何定义产品团队？

Because it answers so much.

因为它回答了太多。

It says so much about culture, collaboration, decision-making, the role of product management.

它对文化、协作、决策和产品管理的作用说了很多。

If there's one question and you could figure out what is this culture like, it would be asking that.

如果有一个问题你可以弄清楚这种文化是什么样的，那就会问这个问题。

Ken Norton: I think another great question for candidates is to ask them to pick an example of something they've shipped recently and just talk about how it came to be.

肯·诺顿：我认为对候选人来说另一个重要的问题是要求他们挑选一个他们最近发布的产品的例子，然后谈谈它是如何形成的。

How did the bill become a law?

该法案是如何成为法律的？

Was it somebody in sales yelled and it got added to the backlog and it was the next thing?

是不是销售人员大喊大叫，它就被添加到待办事项中，然后就是下一件事？

Is it a group of people together understanding customer user needs through discovery and ideating and trying some things and testing it?

是一群人通过发现、构思、尝试和测试来了解客户用户的需求吗？

It says a lot about what it would be like to work there, particularly when it comes to empowerment and product culture.

它充分说明了在那里工作的情况，特别是在授权和产品文化方面。

So those are probably two good questions.

所以这可能是两个很好的问题。

Lenny: Those are really good questions.

莱尼：这些问题确实很好。

I'm going to steal them.

我要去偷它们。

Final question, who else in the industry do you respect as a thought leader?

最后一个问题，您还尊敬业内谁作为思想领袖？

I imagine this list is very long, but what comes to mind?

我想这个清单很长，但是我想到了什么？

Ken Norton: Well, this list is all of my fellow podcast guests on your podcast, Lenny, which is, speaking of imposter phenomenon, is just an incredible group of all the folks that I love and admire.

肯·诺顿：嗯，这个名单是我在你的播客上的所有播客嘉宾，莱尼，说到冒名顶替现象，是我所爱和钦佩的一群令人难以置信的人。

I think, though, because ...

但我认为，因为...

Maybe I'll answer it a little bit outside of product, because I would worry that I would leave out too many great names.

也许我会在产品之外回答这个问题，因为我担心我会遗漏太多伟大的名字。

Ken Norton: In the realms of leadership, Amy Edmondson is somebody I really admire.

肯·诺顿：在领导力领域，艾米·埃德蒙森是我非常钦佩的人。

She's done a lot of the work on psychological safety.

她在心理安全方面做了很多工作。

I really, really value her work, her contributions.

我真的非常重视她的工作和贡献。

There's a guy named Tom Garrity, who has a newsletter about psychological safety.

有一个叫汤姆·加里蒂的人，他有一本关于心理安全的时事通讯。

I think he's collaborated with Amy before.

我想他以前和艾米合作过。

It's one of the best, not the best newsletter I received, Lenny, maybe the second best, about psychological safety for those of us that are wanting to create environments where people can really thrive and do their best.

这是我收到的关于心理安全的最好的新闻通讯之一，但不是最好的通讯，莱尼，也许是第二好的，对于我们这些想要创造人们能够真正茁壮成长并尽力而为的环境的人来说。

Ken Norton: In the coaching profession, I mean the coaching profession emerges from the humanist psychology traditions or the client-first work of ...

肯·诺顿：在教练职业中，我的意思是教练职业源于人文主义心理学传统或客户至上的工作......

Carl Rogers and Abraham Maslow are intellectual heroes of mine.

卡尔·罗杰斯和亚伯拉罕·马斯洛是我心目中的知识英雄。

They're both dead.

他们都死了。

I don't know if we're supposed to talk about living people here, but definitely as I think about in my profession, they really set the stage and created the environment that coaching could even exist.

我不知道我们是否应该谈论这里的活生生的人，但正如我在我的职业中所思考的那样，他们确实为教练的存在奠定了基础并创造了环境。

So I'll include them.

所以我会把它们包括在内。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Ken, this was such a special episode, unlike any other podcast that I've had so far.

肯，这是一集非常特别的节目，与我迄今为止听过的任何其他播客不同。

I can't wait for people to listen to it.

我迫不及待地想让人们听到它。

Before I let you go, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, and then how can listeners be helpful to you?

在我让你走之前，如果人们想联系你、了解更多信息，他们可以在网上哪里找到你，然后听众如何为你提供帮助呢？

Ken Norton: Yeah, bringthedonuts.com is my home on the worldwide web.

肯·诺顿：是的，bringthedonuts.com 是我在万维网上的家。

All my writing is there.

我所有的写作都在那里。

You can get in contact with me there.

你可以在那里与我联系。

I have a newsletter that I am occasionally send out, but you can find all the stuff that I've ever written and get in contact with me there.

我偶尔会发送一份时事通讯，但您可以在那里找到我写过的所有内容并与我联系。

Ken Norton: The how to help be helpful question is a really easy one to answer, but that brings me a lot of joy, which is just keep being awesome product folks.

肯·诺顿：如何提供帮助是一个非常容易回答的问题，但这给我带来了很多快乐，这就是继续成为出色的产品人员。

You're so much my tribe.

你真是我的部落。

You're so close to my heart, all the work that you do, everything you bring into the world, the amazing products that we get to use that I'm sure you're working on right now that we haven't even seen yet, that you can't wait to share with us, and the cultures and teams that you make better, so your very existence.

你是如此贴近我的心，你所做的所有工作，你带给世界的一切，我们使用的令人惊叹的产品，我确信你现在正在开发我们还没有见过的产品，你迫不及待地想与我们分享，以及你让文化和团队变得更好，所以你的存在。

So I would say you can be helpful to me by just keep doing what you're doing.

所以我想说，只要继续做你正在做的事情，你就能对我有所帮助。

Lenny: What an awesome answer.

莱尼：多么棒的答案啊。

Thank you for being here, Ken.

谢谢你来到这里，肯。

Lenny: That was awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

Thank you for listening.

感谢您的聆听。

If you enjoyed the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and, even better, leave a review, which helps a lot.

如果您喜欢聊天，请不要忘记订阅播客，更好的是，留下评论，这会很有帮助。

You can also learn more at lennyspodcast.com.

您还可以访问 lennyspodcast.com 了解更多信息。

I'll see you in the next episode.

我们下一集见。