Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM @Slack)

Lenny Rachitsky: You were famously the first PM at Slack and then you ended up transitioning into executive coaching.

Lenny Rachitsky：众所周知，您是 Slack 的第一任产品经理，然后您最终转型为高管教练。

Kenneth Berger: For me, the impact was about making this work sustainable so that we're not burning out or selling out, but actually able to pursue these hard goals that we have in startups.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，影响在于使这项工作可持续，这样我们就不会精疲力竭或精疲力尽，而是实际上能够追求我们在初创公司中拥有的这些艰难目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: What we're going to be talking about today is your personal magnum opus, the output of 10 plus years as a founder and operator and seven plus years as a coach.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我们要谈论的是您的个人巨著，是您作为创始人和经营者十多年以及作为教练七年多的成果。

Kenneth Berger: The core idea is ask for what you want.

Kenneth Berger：核心思想是询问你想要什么。

Turns out when you actually ask for what you want out loud, you're much more likely to get it.

事实证明，当你真正大声提出你想要的东西时，你更有可能得到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you know that this is something you need to be working on?

Lenny Rachitsky：你怎么知道这是你需要做的事情？

Kenneth Berger: If you're more in the people pleasing camp, maybe you're used to not asking at all.

肯尼思·伯杰：如果你更倾向于取悦他人，也许你已经习惯了根本不提出要求。

You're hoping that people are reading your mind.

你希望人们能读懂你的想法。

And if you're sort of more in the control freak camp, maybe you're used to ordering people around and saying, "Go do this now."

如果你属于控制狂阵营，也许你习惯于命令周围的人并说：“现在就去做吧。”

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you know what you want?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你怎么知道自己想要什么？

Kenneth Berger: Complaints are great inspiration.

肯尼思·伯杰：投诉是伟大的灵感。

Every complaint implies a dream.

每一次抱怨，都意味着一个梦想。

Let me envision a better future.

让我展望更美好的未来。

Let me think about what's an effective way to actually move towards that.

让我考虑一下真正实现这一目标的有效方法是什么。

See what it's like to not be sort of living in fear all the time.

看看不再总是生活在恐惧之中是什么感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Kenneth Berger.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是肯尼思·伯杰。

Kenneth coaches startup leaders to help them avoid burnout and live the life that they want.

肯尼斯指导初创企业领导者，帮助他们避免倦怠并过上他们想要的生活。

He was the first product manager at Slack and spent over 10 years in tech before transitioning into coaching.

他是 Slack 的首位产品经理，在转型为教练之前在技术领域工作了 10 多年。

His core focus with leaders is to help them learn how to ask for what they want.

他对领导者的核心关注点是帮助他们学习如何提出自己想要的东西。

This sounds really simple, but as you'll hear in our chat, this one skill is at the core of so many of the struggles that people have in their career and in their life.

这听起来很简单，但正如您在我们的聊天中听到的那样，这项技能是人们在职业生涯和生活中遇到的许多挣扎的核心。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kenneth shares a ton of very tactical advice to help you figure out what it is you want, how to overcome the resistance that comes with asking for what you want, how to actually ask for what you want effectively, why the most important step is hearing the response that you get when you ask for what you want and all of the things that will change in your life if you get better at this one skill.

Lenny Rachitsky：肯尼思分享了大量非常有策略的建议，帮助你弄清楚你想要什么，如何克服提出你想要的东西所带来的阻力，如何有效地真正提出你想要的东西，为什么最重要的一步是听到你提出你想要的东西时得到的回应，以及如果你在这项技能上做得更好，你的生活将会改变的所有事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kenneth also shares the story of him being fired three times from Slack, which is hilarious.

Lenny Rachitsky：Kenneth 还分享了他被 Slack 解雇 3 次的故事，这很搞笑。

With that, I bring you Kenneth Berger after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了肯尼思·伯杰 (Kenneth Berger)。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我向您介绍一款名为 Sidebar 的产品。

The best way to level up your career is to surround yourself with extraordinary peers.

提升职业生涯的最佳方法是让自己周围都是杰出的同行。

This gives you more than a leg up.

这不仅能让您更有优势。

It gives you a leap forward.

它给你一个飞跃。

This worked really well for me in my career, and this is the Sidebar ethos.

这对我的职业生涯非常有效，这就是侧边栏精神。

When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、职业和生活。

This was a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的同行群体是很困难的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sidebar is a private, highly vetted leadership program where senior leaders are matched with peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives and raw feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：Sidebar 是一个经过严格审查的私人领导力项目，高级领导者与同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your career journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，那么您已经致力于成长。

Sidebar is the missing piece that catalyze your career.

侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: 93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.

Lenny Rachitsky：93% 的会员表示 Sidebar 帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大的积极变化。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Join thousands of top senior leaders who have taken the first step to career growth from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta by visiting sidebar.com/lenny.

访问 sidebar.com/lenny，加入数千位在 Microsoft、Amazon 和 Meta 等公司迈出职业发展第一步的高级领导者行列。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Webflow.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Webflow 为您带来。

We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second.

我们都是这里的朋友，所以让我们现实一点吧。

We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset.

我们都知道您的网站不应该是静态资产。

It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions.

它应该是推动转化的策略的动态部分。

That's business 101.

那是商业101。

Here's a number for you.

这是给你的一个号码。

54% of leaders say web updates take too long.

54% 的领导者表示网络更新时间太长。

That's over half of you listening right now.

现在有超过一半的人在听。

That's where Webflow comes in.

这就是 Webflow 的用武之地。

Their visual first platform allows you to build, launch, and optimize webpages fast.

他们的视觉优先平台允许您快速构建、启动和优化网页。

Lenny Rachitsky: That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge.

Lenny Rachitsky：这意味着您可以设定雄心勃勃的业务目标，并且您的网站可以应对挑战。

Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO and Orangetheory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com.

立即访问 webflow.com 了解 Dropbox、IDEO 和 Orangetheory 等团队如何信任 Webflow 来实现他们最雄心勃勃的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kenneth, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Kenneth，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that, yay.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，是的。

That should be a tradition that everyone goes with.

这应该是每个人都遵循的传统。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

So we originally met when I was doing a post on being a first product manager at a company.

所以我们最初是在我发表一篇关于成为公司第一位产品经理的文章时认识的。

You were famously the first PM at Slack, and then you ended up transitioning into executive coaching, which is what you do now.

众所周知，您是 Slack 的第一任产品经理，然后您最终转型为高管教练，这就是您现在所做的。

What we're going to be talking about today is something that you described to me as, quote, your personal magnum opus, the output of 10 plus years as a founder and operator, and seven plus years as a coach to startup leaders.

今天我们要讨论的是你向我描述的，引用你的个人巨著，作为创始人和运营者十多年的成果，以及作为初创公司领导者教练七年多的成果。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the core idea is simply asking for what you want, which sounds really simple.

Lenny Rachitsky：核心思想就是简单地询问你想要什么，这听起来很简单。

So let me just start broadly just why have you found that this skill, this one idea is so core to so many of the challenges that people run into in work and in life?

那么，让我从广义上开始，为什么你发现这项技能、这个想法对于人们在工作和生活中遇到的许多挑战如此核心？

Kenneth Berger: If I had to answer in one word, it would be integrity.

肯尼思·伯杰：如果我必须用一个词来回答，那就是诚信。

I think that it's one of these funny things where everyone thinks they already know how to ask for what they want.

我认为这是有趣的事情之一，每个人都认为他们已经知道如何要求他们想要的东西。

We all ask for what we want.

我们都要求我们想要什么。

We order our coffee in the morning and we all think we have integrity.

我们早上点咖啡，我们都认为我们很正直。

No one walks around thinking, "I'm lying to myself all the time or lying to others certainly." And yet we tend to fool ourselves a little bit.

没有人四处走动时会想：“我一直在对自己撒谎，或者肯定是在对别人撒谎。”然而我们却倾向于欺骗自己。

When it comes to are we really pursuing the things that we want in life?

当谈到生活时，我们真的在追求我们想要的东西吗？

And I think to me, the flip side of that is sort of the reason that the stakes around asking for what you want are so high because we can't guarantee we're going to get what we want.

我认为，对我来说，另一方面，要求你想要什么的风险如此之高，因为我们不能保证我们会得到我们想要的东西。

Kenneth Berger: But if we're asking for it regularly, if we're listening to the response, we're expecting the nose we get from the world, then we can get the sense of, "Yeah, I'm honoring what's important to me.

肯尼思·伯杰：但如果我们定期提出要求，如果我们正在倾听回应，我们期待着从世界上得到的信息，那么我们就会感觉到，“是的，我尊重对我来说重要的事情。

I'm honoring the world's response and I'm moving forward towards what I want." And if we don't do that, "Well, then we're fooling ourselves that we're actually moving towards of what we want." There tends to be all these unexpected secondary and tertiary effects that come out of that of stress and frustration, and unhappiness because of course, asking for what we want, pursuing what's important to us in life is just one of the most important things of fulfillment, of what's important in achieving our purpose.

我尊重世界的反应，并且我正在朝着我想要的目标前进。”如果我们不这样做，“好吧，那么我们就是在欺骗自己，我们实际上正在朝着我们想要的方向前进。”压力、挫折和不快乐往往会产生所有这些意想不到的二级和三级影响，因为当然，要求我们想要什么，追求对我们生活来说重要的东西只是实现我们目标的最重要的事情之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are just some challenges that people have in their life and career that are just rooted in doing this badly?

Lenny Rachitsky：人们在生活和职业生涯中遇到的一些挑战是因为做得不好而造成的吗？

Not asking for what you want, not knowing what you want.

不问自己想要什么，不知道自己想要什么。

Kenneth Berger: For me with clients, I think what I'm often looking for are just kind of this sense of being stuck because everybody has got frustrations.

肯尼思·伯杰：对于我和客户来说，我认为我经常寻找的就是这种被困住的感觉，因为每个人都会遇到挫折。

Everybody gets nervous at work sometimes.

每个人在工作中有时都会感到紧张。

But if we're in the same stuck place week after week after week in our coaching sessions, probably you're trying the same thing and not getting any different results.

但如果我们在辅导课程中周复一周地陷入同样的​​困境，很可能你正在尝试同样的事情，却没有得到任何不同的结果。

It's that definition of insanity thing.

这就是疯狂的定义。

Kenneth Berger: So really I look at that and say, "Okay.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我真的看着这个并说：“好吧。

Maybe you're asking for what you want." Maybe.

也许你正在要求你想要的东西。”或许。

Although often people aren't.

尽管人们常常不是这样。

But even if you are, you're probably not achieving it.

但即使你做到了，你也可能无法实现这一目标。

You're not getting the results that you want.

你没有得到你想要的结果。

So why are we not learning from that?

那么我们为什么不从中学习呢？

Why are we not moving forward getting new data, trying something new, actually treating it as a sort of iterative development discovery process?

为什么我们不继续获取新数据，尝试新事物，实际上将其视为一种迭代开发发现过程？

Kenneth Berger: So I think that stuckness is one thing.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我认为停滞是一回事。

And I think the other thing I look for is interpersonal conflict, right?

我认为我寻找的另一件事是人际冲突，对吧？

Because I think that one mode of not asking for what you want well is holding back and not really saying it out loud.

因为我认为不强求自己想要的东西的一种方式就是忍住不大声说出来。

I think another really common mode is coming with a lot of entitlement of, "You know what?

我认为另一种非常常见的模式伴随着很多权利，“你知道吗？

You better do what I say.

你最好按我说的做。

I'm your boss.

我是你的老板。

You're my report.

你是我的报告。

You better obey or agree," or whatever it is.

你最好服从或同意，”或者无论是什么。

And of course the danger of that is interpersonal conflict.

当然，这样做的危险是人际冲突。

Even if you are their boss, that's a really disrespectful way to come into the conversation and it's an obvious source for a lot of issues.

即使你是他们的老板，这也是一种非常不尊重的方式参与谈话，而且这是许多问题的明显根源。

Lenny Rachitsky: Before we get into how to learn to do this better and more of why this is so important, is there an example from your career where you did this really badly or you didn't ask what you want?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们讨论如何更好地做到这一点以及为什么这如此重要之前，您的职业生涯中是否有一个例子表明您做得非常糟糕或者您没有问自己想要什么？

Kenneth Berger: There's so many examples.

肯尼思·伯杰：有很多例子。

I think we will eventually get into the story of how I was fired from Slack.

我想我们最终会讲到我是如何被 Slack 解雇的。

But I think for me, the thing that always came up was just being attached to being right.

但我认为对我来说，总是出现的事情只是执着于正确。

And I think a lot of us get into this boat.

我想我们很多人都上了这艘船。

We enter into a meeting and we're sure from the first moment, "I'm right and they're wrong." And I think that especially in product management, we're supposed to be the holders of this vision for what the product should be.

我们参加会议时，从第一刻起就确信“我是对的，他们是错的”。我认为，特别是在产品管理方面，我们应该成为产品愿景的持有者。

And so it's easy to come in with a lot of conviction and not really a lot of openness to other ideas.

因此，人们很容易抱有很大的信念，但对其他想法却不太开放。

Kenneth Berger: Often what I try to introduce people to, and I've learned all this stuff the hard way, believe me, is it's fundamentally disrespectful to go into a meeting already deciding that you're right and the other person is wrong because you can't know that for sure.

肯尼思·伯杰：相信我，我经常试图向人们介绍，并且我已经通过惨痛的方式学到了所有这些东西，那就是，在参加会议时已经确定自己是对的而另一个人是错的，因为你无法确定这一点，这从根本上是不尊重的。

There's always a new perspective, new data that could come in.

总会有新的视角、新的数据出现。

And so you want that conversation to really be a back and forth.

所以你希望谈话真正是来回的。

And if you're coming in with this really ingrained sense of righteousness, you can't do that.

如果你带着这种根深蒂固的正义感进来，你就不能这样做。

There's no way to have that conversation.

没有办法进行这样的对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think you may have already answered this question, but I think it's really important is how do you know that this is something you need to be working on?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你可能已经回答了这个问题，但我认为真正重要的是你如何知道这是你需要做的事情？

How do you know like, "I really need to pay attention to what Kenneth is about to tell me?" You said one is you feel you're stuck in your career, something you're just not making progress, and this could be the answer.

你怎么知道“我真的需要注意肯尼斯要告诉我的事情？”你说其中之一是你觉得自己陷入了职​​业生涯中，只是没有取得进展，这可能就是答案。

Or you said there's interpersonal conflict and you're just having a lot of conflict with people.

或者你说存在人际冲突，而你只是与人发生很多冲突。

Are those the two answers?

这就是这两个答案吗？

Are there more?

还有更多吗？

Kenneth Berger: I think those are great things to look for.

Kenneth Berger：我认为这些都是值得寻找的好东西。

I think it's also good to look for a sense of things being high stakes, because I think part of what can create a lot of conflict and difficulty in these situations is a sense of this is life or death.

我认为寻找一种事关高风险的感觉也很好，因为我认为在这些情况下会产生很多冲突和困难的部分原因是一种生死存亡的感觉。

And that was certainly how it was when I was a founder of, "Okay, normally..." When I was at Adobe, it's a big company, they're going to be fine either way, no matter what I do.

当我还是 Adob​​e 的创始人时，情况肯定就是这样，“好吧，通常......”当我在 Adob​​e 时，这是一家大公司，无论我做什么，他们都会很好。

Right?

正确的？

I can be easy going.

我可以很随和。

Let someone else have their way in the meeting.

让其他人在会议中随心所欲。

But when it was my company, when it was my vision on the line, I didn't feel especially flexible.

但当这是我的公司，当这是我的愿景时，我感觉不是特别灵活。

The stakes seemed really, really high.

赌注似乎真的非常高。

Kenneth Berger: This is the success of my idea, of my vision, my reputation is on the line.

肯尼思·伯杰：这是我的想法、我的愿景的成功，我的声誉岌岌可危。

And so I think often when the stakes feel high, we're kind of focused more on the fear of what we don't want to happen than on actually achieving what we do want.

因此，我认为，当风险很高时，我们通常会更多地关注对我们不希望发生的事情的恐惧，而不是真正实现我们想要的事情。

And that's a really critical distinction because if we're running away from our fears, it doesn't necessarily mean we're getting anywhere meaningful for what our desires are.

这是一个非常关键的区别，因为如果我们逃避恐惧，并不一定意味着我们能够实现我们的愿望。

And so that sense of high stakes that often we can get, whether it's in interpersonal conflict or being afraid of asking for what we want, that can get us really focused on the fears rather than focused on the goals.

因此，我们经常感受到的高风险感，无论是在人际冲突中，还是害怕索要我们想要的东西，都会让我们真正专注于恐惧，而不是专注于目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a question I was going to save for later, but it's something that's very top of mind for me is knowing what you want.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一个问题我打算留到以后再说，但对我来说最重要的是知道你想要什么。

How do you know what you want?

你怎么知道你想要什么？

There's basically knowing what you want and then asking for what you want.

基本上就是知道你想要什么，然后询问你想要什么。

I like equanimity in my life, and so I often don't ask for what I want or push down maybe what I want, or I don't think about what I want.

我喜欢生活中的平静，所以我常常不去要求我想要的东西，或者压低我想要的东西，或者我不去思考我想要的东西。

I just want other people to be happy.

我只是希望其他人幸福。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious what people can do and what I can do to get better at knowing here's what actually want, here's what would make me happy and fulfilled?

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇人们可以做些什么，我可以做些什么来更好地了解这是什么真正想要的，这是什么会让我快乐和满足？

What are some skills there I could work on and other people can work on?

有哪些技能是我可以练习而其他人也可以练习的？

Kenneth Berger: Well, first of all, I'd say you're very far from alone there.

肯尼思·伯杰：首先，我想说你并不孤单。

I mean, I think the people pleaser coping strategy is one of the sort of most classic, and it is effective, right?

我的意思是，我认为取悦他人的应对策略是最经典的应对策略之一，而且它很有效，对吗？

In the short term like, "Oh, you can feel safe and calm when other people are generally happy with you." And the cost tends to be long term in terms of am I really pursuing the things that are important to me?

在短期内，就像“哦，当其他人普遍对你感到满意时，你会感到安全和平静。”就我是否真正追求对我来说重要的事情而言，成本往往是长期的？

Kenneth Berger: So one of my favorite techniques here is this concept they call dream behind the complaint.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我最喜欢的技巧之一就是他们称之为投诉背后的梦想的概念。

Because you're right that we tend to not be that great always at really dreaming and envisioning and saying, "This is my dream of what I want out of life." That can sound really scary for people, but we're very good at complaining.

因为你是对的，我们往往并不总是那么善于真正梦想和想象，并说：“这是我对生活的梦想。”这对人们来说听起来确实很可怕，但我们非常擅长抱怨。

Usually people are very good at saying, "Oh my God, there's this thing happening at work, it's so annoying.

通常人们很擅长说：“天哪，工作中发生了这种事，太烦人了。

Or there's this person that really bothers me so much, why are they always like this?"

还是有一个人真的让我很困扰，为什么总是这样？”

Kenneth Berger: So the magic of that complaining is that every complaint implies a dream.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以抱怨的魔力在于，每一次抱怨都意味着一个梦想。

It implies a better world where that complaint is resolved.

这意味着投诉得到解决，世界会变得更美好。

And so often that's the tool that I'll take people to first to say, "All right, great.

通常，我会带人们首先说：“好吧，太棒了。

Let's complain.

我们来抱怨吧。

Right?

对吗？

It feels so fun and good and releasing to complain, and let's look at what that implied world is behind that complaint." What is this vision?

这感觉很有趣，很好，可以释放抱怨，让我们看看抱怨背后隐含的世界是什么。”这个愿景是什么？

And then to really check, "Okay.

然后真正检查一下，“好吧。

Let's imagine you get that.

让我们想象一下你明白了。

That's the world of the future that you get.

这就是你所看到的未来世界。

How does that feel?

感觉如何？

Is that big enough or is it kind of meh?"

够大还是有点无聊？”

Kenneth Berger: Are we like, "Oh, my dream is that I get to speak up a little more in meetings?" It's like, "Well, that's probably not a hundred percent of your dream.

肯尼思·伯杰：我们是否会说，“哦，我的梦想是我能在会议上多发言一点？”就像，“好吧，这可能不是你梦想的百分之一百。

What's really behind that?" And so I think that check can help you sort of level up to say, "Is this really an inspiring dream for me that's going to motivate me more than those fears that might be hiding in the background?"

这背后到底是什么？”因此，我认为这项检查可以帮助你提高水平，说：“这对我来说真的是一个鼓舞人心的梦想，比那些可能隐藏在背景中的恐惧更能激励我吗？”

Kenneth Berger: And on the flip side, with entitled people, you can also get really unrealistic dreams where I might say, "Okay.

肯尼思·伯杰：另一方面，与有权利的人在一起，你也可能会得到非常不切实际的梦想，我可能会说，“好吧。

So it sounds like what I'm hearing is that your dream is that everyone obeys you and automatically agrees with you no matter what." And they sort of say, "Ah, I don't know if that's quite my dream." And so if your dream is so embarrassing to say out loud, you can't even really own it, maybe that's not the right dream.

所以听起来我听到的是你的梦想是每个人都服从你并且无论如何都会自动同意你。”他们会说，“啊，我不知道这是否是我的梦想。”所以，如果你的梦想很难大声说出来，你甚至无法真正拥有它，也许那不是正确的梦想。

And so that checking whether it actually feels inspiring, but also sort of credible and possible is a good way to find that middle ground where, "Yeah, this dream is hard.

因此，检查它是否确实令人鼓舞，但也有点可信和可能，是找到中间立场的好方法，“是的，这个梦想很难。

I don't know that I'm going to get it, but, damn, it's worth trying.

我不知道我会得到它，但是，该死的，它值得尝试。

I want to go for it."

我想要去争取它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that for someone that wants to try this on their own and help themselves get better at this without you being there, what is it that you do?

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢那些想要自己尝试并帮助自己在没有你在场的情况下做得更好的人，你会做什么？

Is it you dream about what would make you happiest?

你梦想什么会让你最幸福吗？

Is it complain and see what's at the root of it?

是否抱怨并看看其根源是什么？

Is it just imagine a world where you're really happy and see what emerges.

是不是想象一个你真正快乐的世界，然后看看会发生什么？

Kenneth Berger: Specifically for articulating what you want because that's the first step of the asking for what you want process.

Kenneth Berger：专门用于阐明您想要什么，因为这是询问您想要什么过程的第一步。

It really is as simple as that of let's start with what you have consciously in terms of what you want.

这真的很简单，让我们从你有意识地拥有什么开始，了解你想要什么。

And if you have trouble, then we can try looking at complaints and starting to articulate a vision out of that.

如果您遇到麻烦，那么我们可以尝试查看投诉并开始阐明愿景。

Kenneth Berger: But to me, really what's interesting about asking for what you want is that on the surface it's very simple, right?

肯尼思·伯杰：但对我来说，真正有趣的是，从表面上看，提出自己想要的东西非常简单，对吧？

I mean, the steps I outline are articulate what you want, ask for what you want intentionally and accept the response and then try again.

我的意思是，我概述的步骤是阐明您想要什么，有意询问您想要什么并接受响应，然后再试一次。

Because it's an iterative process.

因为这是一个迭代的过程。

We're learning from the response and what it tells us because the response is usually no. So really what tends to be hard there, I mean, that's a straightforward process.

我们正在从回应以及它告诉我们的信息中学习，因为回应通常是否定的。所以，我的意思是，实际上，这往往是一个困难的过程，这是一个简单的过程。

It's not rocket science.

这不是火箭科学。

What's hard there is the resistance.

困难的是阻力。

Kenneth Berger: The parts of us that are not so excited about that, that thinks asking for what we want is scary and articulating a big dream that we might not get is really scary.

肯尼思·伯杰：我们内心对此并不那么兴奋，认为要求我们想要的东西是可怕的，而阐明一个我们可能无法实现的伟大梦想真的很可怕。

Because god, what if I don't get it?

因为上帝，如果我不明白怎么办？

What does that mean about me?

这对我来说意味着什么？

Am I a failure?

我是一个失败者吗？

Or what does it mean if I respect the no?

或者说，如果我尊重“不”，这意味着什么？

What if I ask for my big dream and someone tells me I'm not going to get it?

如果我要求实现自己的远大梦想，而有人告诉我我无法实现怎么办？

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

How am I going to feel?

我会有什么感觉？

Kenneth Berger: So working through all that resistance is really a lot of what tends to be tricky about asking for what you want because otherwise it's articulate, ask, accept.

肯尼思·伯杰：因此，克服所有的阻力实际上是询问你想要的东西往往很棘手的事情，因为否则它是清晰的，询问，接受。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

You're getting into where we're going to go.

你正在进入我们要去的地方。

Before we get there.

在我们到达那里之前。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

This idea of dealing with, no, I think this is the other big blocker for people is like, "Oh, that's so scary to ask for something I really want or ask for something big that is really important to you." What is it that you advise there of just getting over this fear of just asking for what you want?

这种处理的想法，不，我认为这是人们的另一个大障碍，就像，“哦，要求一些我真正想要的东西或要求一些对你来说非常重要的大东西真是太可怕了。”您对克服这种只要求自己想要的东西的恐惧有何建议？

Kenneth Berger: So I have a more expansive definition of no than most people, I think, because for me it's not a yes unless it's a hell yes.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我认为，我对“不”的定义比大多数人更广泛，因为对我来说，这不是一个“是”，除非它是一个地狱般的“是”。

Because you really want enthusiastic consent.

因为你真的想要热情的同意。

Not just, "Maybe, kinda.

不只是，“也许，有点。

I'll try.

我会尝试的。

We'll see.

我们拭目以待。

But yeah, absolutely, let's do this." And I think that often it's so tempting to settle for something less than that to say, "Oh, well, okay, we'll give that a try." And that often comes to bite us later on because we accept this thing that short of a hell yes.

但是，是的，绝对，让我们这样做吧。”我认为，通常很容易满足于比这更简单的事情，说：“哦，好吧，好吧，我们会尝试一下。”这往往会在后来困扰我们，因为我们接受了这件事，几乎是地狱。

And then we realized later on, "Oh yeah, they weren't really in."

后来我们意识到，“哦，是的，他们并没有真正参与进来。”

Kenneth Berger: They didn't show up to the party or they didn't deliver on time because my CTO said, "Yeah, I think maybe we can deliver by May 1st." And then May 1st comes and surprise, surprise, your milestone is not done because you didn't go for that hell yes.

Kenneth Berger：他们没有出席聚会，或者没有按时交付，因为我的 CTO 说：“是的，我想也许我们可以在 5 月 1 日之前交付。”然后 5 月 1 日到来，惊喜，惊喜，你的里程碑还没有完成，因为你没有经历那个地狱，是的。

And so I think part of what I encourage people to do is, one, to really hear anything short of a hell yes as a no. So it's not a bad thing.

所以我认为我鼓励人们做的一部分就是，第一，真正听到任何除了“是”之外的事情都被当作“不”。所以这并不是一件坏事。

Mostly the world tells us it's actually really great data.

大多数情况下，世界告诉我们这实际上是非常好的数据。

It helps us figure out what are we going to try next?

它可以帮助我们弄清楚下一步要尝试什么？

What are we going to try next, try next, try next?

接下来我们要尝试什么，接下来尝试，接下来尝试？

Because that's going to help us learn how to actually get to that hell yes.

因为这将帮助我们学习如何真正到达那个地狱，是的。

Kenneth Berger: And part of that asking process is of not settling for it, but actually asking and saying, "Hey, I'm hearing maybe you're lukewarm on May 1st as a date.

肯尼思·伯杰：询问过程的一部分是不满足于此，而是实际上询问并说：“嘿，我听说你可能对 5 月 1 日的约会不冷不热。

What would be a hell yes day for you where you could say, absolutely, we can deliver on that?" And that way we're not making them wrong for saying no. We're saying, "Of course you get to say no. Everybody gets to say no whenever they want.

如果你能说，我们绝对能实现这一目标，那对你来说会是怎样的日子呢？”这样我们就不会因拒绝而让他们错了。我们说，“当然你可以说不。每个人都可以随时说不。

But let's get to a hell yes.

但让我们进入地狱吧，是的。

What would it take for us to get there?"

我们需要做什么才能到达那里？”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really helpful framework and phrase to use is just what would it take to get to hell yes?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有用的框架和短语，就是怎样才能下地狱，是吗？

Not just what would it take to get to you feeling comfortable with this?

不仅仅是怎样才能让你对此感到满意？

What would it take for you to just agree to this?

你需要什么才能同意这一点？

It's more a hell yes.

是的，这更像是地狱。

And your point there is hell yes is when they actually fully agree.

当他们真正完全同意时，你的观点就很糟糕了。

Oftentimes people kind of like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then they don't actually follow through.

人们常常会说：“是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。”然后他们实际上并没有跟进。

Kenneth Berger: Some people call this a whole body yes because sometimes your head is saying yes, but your heart is saying no or your gut is saying no. And so I think you can really feel in your body when you've got a hell yes, when all of you is fully in and ready to do this.

肯尼思·伯杰：有些人称之为“全身是”，因为有时你的头脑说“是”，但你的心说“不”，或者你的直觉说“不”。所以我认为当你有地狱般的感觉时，当你们所有人都完全投入并准备好这样做时，你可以真正感受到你的身体。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this applies to, you're giving examples here of just getting like aligning a deadline.

Lenny Rachitsky：这也适用于，你在这里给出的例子只是调整最后期限。

I imagine the same skill applies to everything in relationship questions and friends and family and work.

我想同样的技巧也适用于关系问题、朋友、家人和工作中的一切。

Kenneth Berger: It does.

肯尼思·伯杰：确实如此。

And it is something universal, but I do think of it as being particularly relevant to my work with startups because I work primarily with startup founders.

这是普遍存在的，但我确实认为它与我与初创公司的工作特别相关，因为我主要与初创公司创始人一起工作。

Because with startups you know that mostly they fail.

因为对于初创公司来说，你知道它们大多会失败。

We all know the numbers on that.

我们都知道这方面的数字。

And so to me, there's a perspective you have to take if you're going to operate in the startup world of being okay with not knowing that you're going to get the outcome you want.

所以对我来说，如果你想在创业世界中运营，你必须采取一种观点，即接受不知道自己会得到你想要的结果的情况。

A lot of people, we operate in a safer world where we're more clear exactly what the outcomes are going to be, but if you're a startup founder, you've got to be okay with, "I'm just going to go for this, and I know I probably won't get it.

对很多人来说，我们生活在一个更安全的世界，我们更清楚结果将会是什么，但如果你是一家初创公司的创始人，你必须接受，“我只是要去做这件事，我知道我可能不会得到它。

But it's so meaningful to me, I'm going to go for it anyway."

但这对我来说太有意义了，无论如何我都会去争取。”

Kenneth Berger: And so to me, that's not just about the big picture of running a startup, it's about really anything you might want in life, because that's such a useful perspective to say, "I know I'm not going to get it.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，这不仅仅是关于经营一家初创公司的大局，而是关于你生活中可能想要的任何事情，因为这是一个非常有用的视角，可以说“我知道我不会得到它。

I know I'm not guaranteed to get it.

我知道我不能保证得到它。

I'm not going to be attached to that.

我不会执着于此。

I know people aren't obligated to tell me yes, but I'm going to go forward anyway because I want it and that's enough."

我知道人们没有义务告诉我是的，但无论如何我都会继续前进，因为我想要它，这就足够了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's actually get into the skill of learning how to actually ask for what you want more effectively.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，让我们真正了解如何更有效地实际要求你想要的东西的技巧。

You already described three steps, so maybe just describe them again and let's just walk through them.

您已经描述了三个步骤，所以也许只需再次描述它们，然后让我们逐步完成它们。

Kenneth Berger: The first step is articulating what you want.

Kenneth Berger：第一步是阐明你想要什么。

And we've gone into this a little bit, but to me, I think that the key places that people tend to have missteps here, or one in this phrase, it's fine.

我们已经对此进行了一些讨论，但对我来说，我认为人们在这里容易犯错的关键地方，或者用这句话来说，这很好。

I think of the "it's fine" cartoon with the flames and the dog, I think it is.

我想起了带有火焰和狗的“没关系”卡通片，我想是的。

But I think a lot of us fall into that trap of saying, "You know what?

但我认为我们很多人都会陷入这样的陷阱：“你知道吗？

I'm fine.

我很好。

I actually, I don't need anything.

其实我什么都不需要

I'm good."

我很好。”

Kenneth Berger: And again, this is tempting, right?

肯尼思·伯杰：再说一遍，这很诱人，对吧？

Because it's so nice to have this idea that I'm fine, I don't need anything.

因为有这个想法真是太好了，我很好，我不需要任何东西。

And in a certain way, that's a nice attitude because yeah, we're not guaranteed anything, so it's nice to be okay with the status quo.

在某种程度上，这是一种很好的态度，因为是的，我们没有任何保证，所以安于现状很好。

But for those folks, often what I'm encouraging that do is to really tune into the parts of them that maybe aren't so fine like, "Gosh, I'd prefer it a little bit if things were this way or yeah, I'm a little bit bothered by this, or I'm a little bit nervous about this."

但对于那些人来说，我通常鼓励他们做的是真正适应他们可能不太好的部分，比如，“天哪，如果事情是这样的，我会更喜欢它，或者是的，我对此有点烦恼，或者我对此有点紧张。”

Kenneth Berger: And so kind of tuning more into those subtle emotions that are pointing them towards, "Sure, I'm okay with the status quo, but I want something more." And so helping them articulate that in a clearer way where they can want something without being attached to having to get it.

肯尼思·伯杰：更多地融入那些微妙的情绪，这些情绪引导他们走向“当然，我对现状没意见，但我想要更多。”因此，帮助他们以更清晰的方式表达出他们可以想要某样东西，而不必执着于必须得到它。

The other extreme of this is people who articulate these sort of wildly unrealistic goals.

另一个极端是那些明确表达这些极其不切实际的目标的人。

So this is the founder that just wants everyone to agree with him all the time and to obey him immediately.

所以这就是创始人，只是想让大家一直认同他，立即服从他。

Kenneth Berger: So for those folks, it really tends to be more about saying it out loud.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以对于那些人来说，更重要的是大声说出来。

Once you say it out loud, it is clearer.

一旦你大声说出来，事情就更清楚了。

That's not really what it's about.

这不是真正的意思。

And so for those folks, I tend to ask them to go deeper to say, "Yeah, I know you're not a control freak.

因此，对于这些人，我倾向于要求他们更深入地说：“是的，我知道你不是一个控制狂。

You don't want everyone to think exactly what you think.

你不希望每个人都和你的想法一样。

What's it really about?

它到底是关于什么的？

What does that get you?" And so often it goes from being this more kind of objective external goal to being a more kind of social emotional goal of, "You know what, I just want to have a team that feels really aligned around me and we're just ready to go for it and we've got each other's backs."

这对你有什么好处？”通常情况下，它会从一种更客观的外部目标转变为一种更社会情感的目标，“你知道吗，我只想拥有一支感觉真正团结在我周围的团队，我们已经准备好为此而努力，并且我们互相支持。”

Kenneth Berger: That doesn't mean we agree with each other all the time or that we're a hundred percent aligned in everything, but it doesn't mean there's a certain feeling that I have when I go into work.

肯尼思·伯杰：这并不意味着我们始终意见一致，也不意味着我们在所有事情上都百分百一致，但这并不意味着我在工作时会有某种感觉。

Even though I don't know that we're going to get what we want or that everyone is going to agree.

尽管我不知道我们会得到我们想要的，也不知道每个人都会同意。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have any examples from your time you could share of someone articulating what they want and figuring out how they articulate, how to articulate what they want just to make it even more real?

Lenny Rachitsky：在您的时代，您是否有任何例子可以分享，一些人清楚地表达了他们想要什么，并弄清楚他们如何表达，如何表达他们想要的东西，只是为了使其更加真实？

Kenneth Berger: To me a lot of the classic examples are around feedback.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，很多经典的例子都是围绕反馈的。

Because I work with a lot of founders who are not the sort of classic control freaks.

因为我和很多创始人一起工作，他们都不是那种典型的控制狂。

They're super nice and their teams love them and they love their teams.

他们非常友善，他们的团队爱他们，他们也爱他们的团队。

So for them, it can be really hard to deliver hard feedback, to deliver negative feedback and even more to actually create consequences.

因此，对他们来说，提供硬性反馈、负面反馈甚至真正产生后果都非常困难。

Because the thing about accepting other people's no is that, "Sure, they can always say no. Everybody gets to say no whenever they want, but there are consequences." And so the classic thing I see with the nice founders is they're really afraid to actually create consequences when people are not living up to their expectations.

因为接受别人的拒绝意味着，“当然，他们总是可以说不。每个人都可以随时说不，但这是有后果的。”因此，我在优秀创始人身上看到的典型现象是，当人们没有达到他们的期望时，他们真的害怕真正造成后果。

Right?

正确的？

Kenneth Berger: When they're not aligned with the culture, they're not delivering in the way that the CEO wants them to be delivering because it doesn't seem that nice.

肯尼思·伯杰：当他们与文化不一致时，他们就不会按照首席执行官希望他们提供的方式提供服务，因为这看起来不太好。

They're like, "Oh, I think of myself as nice and of being so kind and of people loving me." And it's like, "Well, that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for their actions."

他们会说，“哦，我认为自己很友善，很友善，人们都爱我。”就像，“嗯，这并不意味着他们的行为不会产生后果。”

Kenneth Berger: Part of really respecting them is respecting that they can make the choices they want and they're grownups enough that they can deal with the consequences of those choices."

肯尼思·伯杰：真正尊重他们的一部分是尊重他们可以做出自己想要的选择，而且他们已经足够成熟，可以应对这些选择的后果。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you even get more concrete there?

Lenny Rachitsky：你能说得更具体一些吗？

Is it we need to hit this date, or are there going to be big problems?

我们是否需要在这个日期之前完成，还是会出现大问题？

Or is it like, "I need you to hire this large of a team?" I don't know.

或者是“我需要你雇佣这么大的团队？”我不知道。

What is it that they're not articulating that they later realize, "Oh, here's what I need to articulate."

他们没有阐明什么，后来他们意识到，“哦，这就是我需要阐明的。”

Kenneth Berger: So I think sometimes it is about alignment, the disagree and commit.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我认为有时这是关于协调、分歧和承诺。

So I see that a lot of founders saying, "Hey, I'm super respectful of your differing opinion here, and I totally validate you and I appreciate you.

所以我看到很多创始人说：“嘿，我非常尊重你的不同意见，我完全认可你，我很欣赏你。

Thank you so much for sharing that." But they're not willing to go that extra step and say, "Yeah, but this is the call and I need you to actually follow through with that.

非常感谢你分享这一点。”但他们不愿意采取额外的步骤，并说：“是的，但这是我的电话，我需要你真正贯彻执行。

I understand that might be disappointing or frustrating or what have you, but part of the expectation for this role is that you can roll with disagree and commit sometimes when that's necessary."

我知道这可能会让你感到失望或沮丧，但对这个角色的部分期望是，你可以接受不同意见，有时在必要时做出承诺。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。

I fully get that and I could see how scary that is to a lot of people.

我完全明白这一点，我可以看到这对很多人来说是多么可怕。

One is just coming to terms with, "This is what I actually want to be doing, but I just don't feel like I can because it's going to, I think, upset people." Okay.

一个人刚刚接受这样的事实：“这就是我真正想做的事情，但我只是觉得我做不到，因为我认为这会让人们感到不安。”好的。

So what else can you suggest people do to help identify what it is they want and articulate what they want?

那么，您还可以建议人们做什么来帮助确定他们想要什么并阐明他们想要什么？

So you talked about pay attention to just like, "Oh, this would be better.

所以你谈到要注意，“哦，这样会更好。

If this changed, I'd be happier." Or things would probably run better.

如果这种情况改变，我会更高兴。”或者事情可能会进展得更好。

That's a really cool example of how to think do that because easy, just like, "Oh yeah, if we actually can make a decision in this meeting, that'd be really cool." Maybe we should try to do that and ask for that.

这是一个非常酷的例子，说明了如何思考如何做到这一点，因为很简单，就像，“哦，是的，如果我们真的可以在这次会议上做出决定，那就真的很酷。”也许我们应该尝试这样做并提出要求。

Is there any other tips and approaches to helping you figure out what you want?

还有其他技巧和方法可以帮助您弄清楚自己想要什么吗？

Kenneth Berger: It always comes back to integrity.

肯尼思·伯杰：它总是回归正直。

And a great way to do an integrity check is to just look have I fully expressed myself?

进行完整性检查的一个好方法就是看看我是否充分表达了自己的意思？

And so I think we've talked a little bit about charting your feelings as a piece of that of like, "Yeah, am I really tuning into how annoyed I am or how frustrated I am or how nervous I am?" Because if I haven't fully owned those feelings and expressed those in whatever way is appropriate, then probably I'm not fully in integrity.

所以我想我们已经讨论过将你的感受描绘成这样的一部分，“是的，我真的调整到我有多么恼火或我有多么沮丧或我有多么紧张吗？”因为如果我没有完全拥有这些感受并以任何适当的方式表达这些感受，那么我可能并不完全正直。

Kenneth Berger: I think saying what you have to say is a piece of that too.

肯尼思·伯杰：我认为说出你必须说的话也是其中的一部分。

"Gosh, is there something that I keep thinking about and I'm just like three or four days, I'm just like, man, I really want to say this to this person." At this point, you're probably out of integrity because there's something deep in you that really needs to say this, right?

“天哪，有什么事情我一直在想，我大概三四天了，我就想，伙计，我真的很想对这个人说这个。”在这一点上，你可能不诚实，因为你内心深处确实有一些东西需要说出来，对吧？

And so to me, articulating what you want is really about mindfulness is about checking for all these things.

所以对我来说，阐明你想要什么实际上是关于正念，是关于检查所有这些事情。

Kenneth Berger: What is the part of me that's not fully expressed?

肯尼思·伯杰：我的哪些部分还没有完全表达出来？

Because it doesn't mean I'm going to get what I want or that people are going to give me all my dreams immediately, but it feels so much better to have it out.

因为这并不意味着我会得到我想要的东西，也不意味着人们会立即实现我所有的梦想，但实现它感觉好多了。

That sort of suffering that fear usually comes from holding it in and saying, "Oh, having these stories of I'm not allowed to say that.

这种恐惧的痛苦通常来自于忍住并说：“哦，有这些故事我不被允许说这些。

It's not appropriate to express that I'm bored in this meeting." Versus saying, "Probably a lot of people would be grateful if we said out loud, 'I'm bored in this meeting.' Let's move things along."

表达我对这次会议感到无聊是不合适的。”而不是说，“如果我们大声说，‘我对这次会议感到无聊’，可能很多人会感激不尽。”让我们继续推进事情吧。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.

当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。

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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。

Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risks.

Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.

此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

That's vanta.com/lenny.

这是vanta.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

This is a great segue too.

这也是一个很棒的延续。

Now I have a sense.

现在我有一个感觉了。

I need to change this.

我需要改变这一点。

This needs to change.

这需要改变。

I'm just scared to say this, to bring it up, to change the way people are operating to ask for what I want.

我只是害怕说出来，害怕提出来，害怕改变人们询问我想要的东西的方式。

What advice can you share for people to actually do this?

您可以向人们分享什么建议来实际做到这一点？

Kenneth Berger: So for asking what you want, I think the really important tweak here is asking intentionally because I think a lot of us are stuck on a certain track that's comfortable for us when we ask.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以，对于询问你想要什么，我认为这里真正重要的调整是有意识地询问，因为我认为当我们询问时，我们很多人都陷入了对我们来说舒适的特定轨道上。

And so if you're more in the people-pleasing camp, maybe you're used to not asking at all.

因此，如果您更倾向于取悦他人，也许您已经习惯了根本不提出要求。

You're hoping that people are reading your mind and just magically knowing what you want.

你希望人们能够读懂你的想法，并且神奇地知道你想要什么。

Kenneth Berger: And if you're more in the control-free camp, maybe you're used to ordering people around and saying, "Go do this now." And so for both of those folks, it's not about...

肯尼思·伯杰：如果你更倾向于不受控制的阵营，也许你习惯于命令周围的人并说：“现在就去做吧。”所以对于这两个人来说，这不是...

I think if you ask any of them, "Is this working for you?" They'd say no. Of course, it's obvious from an effectiveness standpoint, it's not working well, but they more just haven't embraced that you can do it a different way that they only really see one way of doing it.

我想如果你问他们中的任何一个人，“这对你有用吗？”他们会说不。当然，从有效性的角度来看，很明显，它的效果并不好，但他们只是没有接受你可以用不同的方式来做这件事，他们只真正看到一种方法。

Kenneth Berger: So part of asking for what you want effectively is really just recognizing the rut that you get stuck in and working through all those narratives that make us resist asking it a different way.

肯尼思·伯杰：因此，有效地提出你想要的东西的一部分实际上就是认识到你陷入的困境，并解决所有那些让我们拒绝以不同的方式提出要求的叙述。

Because often the people who don't want to ask have a story that says, "This is too risky.

因为那些不想问的人往往会编造一个故事，说：“这太冒险了。

Or it's not worth it.

或者说这是不值得的。

They're going to say no anyway, so why even bother?"

反正他们都会拒绝，那为什么还要麻烦呢？”

Kenneth Berger: So these are all very common things that people go through, but then they end up not actually asking for what they want.

肯尼斯·伯杰：所以这些都是人们经历的非常常见的事情，但最终他们并没有真正要求他们想要的东西。

Now, actually expressing who they are and what they stand for in the world.

现在，真正表达他们是谁以及他们在世界上代表什么。

And that has a really serious cost.

这会带来非常严重的成本。

I think that we tend to tell ourselves the story, "Oh, this is fine.

我认为我们倾向于告诉自己这个故事，“哦，这很好。

I'll be fine." Versus owning, "I'm going to be living my life not asking for what I want." Do I really want to be at my funeral and have people say, "Oh, Kenneth played it safe.

我会没事的。”而不是拥有，“我将过我的生活，而不是索取我想要的东西。”我真的想参加我的葬礼并让人们说，“哦，肯尼思谨慎行事。

He didn't really go for his dreams, but he was nice.

他并没有真正追求自己的梦想，但他很友善。

No one was ever mad at him." That's not what we want people to say at our eulogies.

没有人对他生气。”这不是我们希望人们在我们的悼词中说的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: No. That's good motivation.

Lenny Rachitsky：不。这是很好的动力。

Okay.

好的。

So say in this example you gave of like, "I need us to make a decision.

因此，在这个例子中，你可以说：“我需要我们做出决定。

I know I'm trying to keep everyone happy, but we need to make a decision." Do you have advice for maybe phrases of how to approach.

我知道我正在努力让每个人都高兴，但我们需要做出决定。”您对如何处理的短语有什么建议吗？

You talked about making intentional.

你谈到了有意为之。

How do you actually go about doing that?

你实际上是如何去做的呢？

Is it the way you communicate it?

这是你沟通的方式吗？

Is it something else?

难道是别的什么？

How do you actually do this without pissing people off and also just risking too much?

你如何真正做到这一点而不激怒人们并且冒太大的风险？

Kenneth Berger: Even implicit in that question, to me that's that question of, "Oh, how do I do it without being any risk of ever pissing anyone off?" That's a piece of the resistance right there.

肯尼思·伯杰：即使是这个问题中隐含的问题，对我来说，这就是“哦，我该如何做到这一点，而不会有任何惹恼任何人的风险？”这就是那里的阻力的一部分。

And so this is a great example of the type of work that we have to do, right?

所以这是我们必须做的工作类型的一个很好的例子，对吗？

Because in theory, asking is easy, "Oh, you just try some way and maybe people are pissed off and maybe they're not." But probably it's going to be fine and you'll have the chance to try again and iterate and work from it.

因为从理论上讲，提出问题很容易，“哦，你只要尝试一些方法，也许人们会生气，也许他们不会。”但也许一切都会好起来，你将有机会再次尝试、迭代并从中开展工作。

Kenneth Berger: But often we get stuck so we don't get to go through those levels of iteration because we want to make sure we're going to get the outcome.

Kenneth Berger：但我们常常会陷入困境，因此我们无法经历这些级别的迭代，因为我们想确保我们能够得到结果。

We say, "Oh, well, I'm not willing to ever piss anyone off ever.

我们说：“哦，好吧，我永远都不愿意得罪任何人。

And so I'm just going to be stuck at this step because I haven't figured out what's going to guarantee me." And of course, there's no guarantee.

所以我会被困在这一步，因为我还没有弄清楚什么可以保证我。”当然，没有保证。

We can never guarantee that people are going to feel a particular way.

我们永远不能保证人们会有某种特定的感受。

Kenneth Berger: So part of asking for what you want effectively is actually bringing some compassion for yourself.

肯尼思·伯杰：因此，有效地寻求自己想要的东西的一部分实际上是为自己带来一些同情心。

Of course, we all want to be sure that the way we ask is going to be effective and no one is going to be mad at us and we're going to get all of our dreams come true.

当然，我们都希望确保我们提出的要求是有效的，没有人会对我们生气，我们将实现我们所有的梦想。

But we don't get that.

但我们不明白这一点。

I wish we did.

我希望我们做到了。

That would be nice.

那太好了。

But is that worth not pursuing your dreams in life?

但这值得不追求你的人生梦想吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good point about what you identified and the way...

Lenny Rachitsky：关于你的发现和方法的观点非常好......

I think a lot of people that think about it, it's just like, "I'd always do this without causing anyone any pain or risking anything going wrong." I think that's, to your point, part of it.

我想很多人都会想，“我总是会这样做，不会给任何人带来任何痛苦，也不会冒出任何问题的风险。”我认为，就你的观点而言，这是其中的一部分。

So you talk a lot about founders.

所以你谈论了很多关于创始人的事情。

You work with a lot of founders, a lot of listeners here are not founders, they're product managers, ICs on teams, other functions that don't have "power".

你和很多创始人一起工作，这里的很多听众不是创始人，他们是产品经理、团队中的 IC，以及其他没有“权力”的职能。

Is there anything that you suggest these folks do differently or think about this differently or is it kind of the same thing?

您是否建议这些人采取不同的做法或以不同的方式思考这个问题，或者两者是同一件事吗？

In the end everyone has power in some way.

最终每个人都以某种方式拥有权力。

How would you think about this if you're just, say, a product manager, individual contributor?

如果你只是一名产品经理、个人贡献者，你会如何看待这个问题？

Kenneth Berger: I think one of the most important balances in terms of the asking step is both asking clearly, but asking with great humility.

肯尼思·伯杰：我认为提问步骤中最重要的平衡之一是既要明确提问，又要以极大的谦逊的态度提问。

And this actually works whether you're in a position of power or not because I think a lot of folks will go so far to the end of humility.

无论你是否处于权力地位，这实际上都是有效的，因为我认为很多人都会走到谦卑的尽头。

They say, "Well, I'm not going to say this out loud at all." But in fact, if you're willing to say, I really disagree with this product decision and I would really prefer that we make this different decision.

他们说：“好吧，我根本不会大声说出来。”但事实上，如果你愿意说，我真的不同意这个产品决定，我真的更希望我们做出这个不同的决定。

I know it's not my call and I'm just one opinion and a lot of people are going to see things differently and that's fine, but it's important to me that you know that.

我知道这不是我的决定，我只是一种意见，很多人会对事情有不同的看法，这很好，但对我来说重要的是你知道这一点。

So what do you think?

那么你觉得怎么样？

Are you willing to reconsider this?"

你愿意重新考虑一下吗？”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a great approach.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的方法。

It's very not scary to say that.

说起来这并不可怕。

It also, I think, highlights something I wanted to touch on is I think people have a lot more influence and power than they think they do.

我认为，这也凸显了我想谈的一点，那就是我认为人们的影响力和权力比他们想象的要大得多。

Say a PM on a team disagrees with a plan for a product.

假设团队中的 PM 不同意产品计划。

People actually care about your opinion and you could actually change things.

人们实际上关心你的意见，你实际上可以改变事情。

But just telling them, "I think this is a bad idea." And you often don't.

但只是告诉他们，“我认为这是一个坏主意。”而你却常常不这样做。

Is that what you find, that people have a lot more influence than they think they do?

你是否发现人们的影响力比他们想象的要大得多？

Anything along those lines that comes up?

有什么类似的事情发生吗？

Kenneth Berger: You're giving me deep goosebumps because I think this is a really underappreciated thing in terms of asking for what we want because especially in the PM world, we're trained to look for data.

Kenneth Berger：你让我深深起鸡皮疙瘩，因为我认为在询问我们想要什么方面，这是一件真正被低估的事情，因为特别是在 PM 世界中，我们被训练来寻找数据。

We're not just going to state an opinion.

我们不只是发表意见。

We're going to say, "Oh, the AB test said this.

我们会说，“哦，AB 测试是这么说的。

Or 30% of our users do this, or the ROI on this is X." And data is great.

或者我们 30% 的用户这样做，或者这方面的投资回报率是 X。”数据很棒。

We love data for a reason of course.

我们热爱数据当然是有原因的。

And I think people forget about exactly what you're highlighting, that your relationships matter, and that just your opinion because you believe something or because you want something often that's enough.

我认为人们忘记了你所强调的是什么，你的人际关系很重要，而你的观点只是因为你相信某事或因为你经常想要某事就足够了。

Kenneth Berger: Because guess what?

肯尼思·伯杰：因为你猜怎么着？

You're in a relationship with these people you work with.

您与这些与您一起工作的人建立了关系。

They care about you.

他们关心你。

You have some sort of leverage with them.

你对他们有某种影响力。

And I think that often people go the other way and say, "Oh, I've got power.

我认为人们常常会反其道而行之说：“哦，我有权力。

I'm going to try and leverage it." But actually, if you go the other direction and you're humble and you say, "I know I can't make you do anything, it's not my call to make.

我将尝试并利用它。”但实际上，如果你走向另一个方向，你谦虚地说：“我知道我不能让你做任何事，这不是我的决定。

But man, this is really what I want.

但是伙计，这确实是我想要的。

I'm just going to put it out there and ask." That I think it feels really vulnerable and uncomfortable to not lean on data as a sort of way of saying, "No, no, I'm right, so you should believe what I believe." But just say, "Actually, I don't know that I'm right.

我只是要把它放在那里并询问。”我认为不依靠数据来表达“不，不，我是对的，所以你应该相信我所相信的”，这感觉真的很脆弱和不舒服。但只要说：“事实上，我不知道我是对的。

This is just what I think and I hope that's enough on its own."

这正是我的想法，我希望这本身就足够了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you find that that's actually a crutch a lot of times to people not saying anything is they don't have that data?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是否发现，很多时候，对于那些因为没有这些数据而没有说什么的人来说，这实际上是一种拐杖？

They don't have evidence and they just, "I shouldn't say anything.

他们没有证据，他们只是说：“我不应该说什么。

If someone asks for why I don't have a great answer, I just think this is what should be."

如果有人问我为什么没有一个很好的答案，我只是认为这就是应该的。”

Kenneth Berger: Totally.

肯尼思·伯杰：完全可以。

And I think there's a balance there as with anything.

我认为任何事物都存在平衡。

Is ignoring data and going in gut all the time, great?

忽略数据并一直凭直觉行事，很好吗？

Probably not, right?

可能不会，对吧？

We use data for a reason, but I think there are all these moments when we are making a gut decision and having all the data there means having the opinion set out loud.

我们使用数据是有原因的，但我认为在所有这些时刻，我们都在做出直觉决定，拥有所有数据意味着大声表达意见。

I think often the dangers of people saying, "Oh, I don't have data to back this up.

我认为人们经常说“哦，我没有数据支持这一点”的危险。

It's just what I think.

这只是我的想法。

And I'm not sure people are going to agree with me, so I'm just not going to say it."

我不确定人们会同意我的观点，所以我不会说出来。”

Kenneth Berger: So we don't have the data of all those gut opinions of these subject matter experts in the room, even though that gut information to me is just as important as anything we could get from the SQL database or whatever.

Kenneth Berger：因此，我们没有房间里这些主题专家的所有直觉意见的数据，尽管这些直觉信息对我来说与我们从 SQL 数据库或其他数据库中获得的任何信息一样重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Before we move on to step three, you talked about the opposite of asking for what you want.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们进入第三步之前，你谈到了“要求你想要什么”的反面。

This was just step two is just complaining and being angry later like, "I knew this project was going to fail.

这只是第二步，只是抱怨然后生气，比如，“我知道这个项目会失败。

I knew this was a terrible deadline.

我知道这是一个可怕的最后期限。

I knew this design was not great." Anything more you want to say along those lines of just like, "If you're not asking for what you want, complaining is often a sign that you should be doing that more"?

我知道这个设计并不好。”你还想说些什么，比如“如果你没有要求你想要的东西，抱怨通常是你应该做得更多的一个信号”？

Kenneth Berger: To me, complaints are great inspiration.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，抱怨是伟大的灵感。

To me, I love radical candor, for example, where I try to go a step further than radical candor is to not just say, "Hey, here's my feedback.

例如，对我来说，我喜欢激进的坦率，我尝试比激进的坦率更进一步，不仅仅是说，“嘿，这是我的反馈。

Just wanted you to know." But to say, "And I want something.

只是想让你知道。”但要说：“我想要一些东西。

I would like to see an outcome." And so I think that to me it's all about the effective framing that the complaint is probably not going to be an effective way to do it, but it can be great inspiration to say, "Gosh, that complaining means I'm frustrated.

我希望看到一个结果。”所以我认为对我来说，这一切都与有效的框架有关，抱怨可能不是一种有效的方式，但它可以是很大的灵感说，“天哪，抱怨意味着我很沮丧。

What am I frustrated about?

我对什么感到沮丧？

Let me envision that better future.

让我展望更美好的未来。

Let me think about what's an effective way to actually move towards that.

让我考虑一下真正实现这一目标的有效方法是什么。

What's an effective way to communicate that desire that's actually likely to get me towards a yes?"

有什么有效的方式来传达这种愿望，实际上可能让我做出“是”的愿望？”

Kenneth Berger: And so when we actually embrace that sort of frustration, annoying, complaining thing and follow that thread down and think about how to be effective that way, we can actually get something really compelling and useful, but it requires actually embracing that part of ourselves that sometimes we're a little bit ashamed of like, "Oh, I don't like that whiny part of myself.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以，当我们真正拥抱这种沮丧、烦人、抱怨的事情，并沿着这条线索思考如何以这种方式有效时，我们实际上可以得到一些真正引人注目和有用的东西，但这需要真正拥抱我们自己的那部分，有时我们有点羞于，“哦，我不喜欢自己那爱发牢骚的部分。

I'm just going to push that one down versus actually taking what it has to say as important data."

我只是将其推低，而不是将其视为重要数据。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的观点。

I think that's actually another blocker for a lot of people is just, "I don't want to be a complaining person.

我认为这实际上是很多人的另一个障碍，“我不想成为一个抱怨的人。

I just want to be like, let's do this.

我只是想说，让我们这样做吧。

I'm in, let's go.

我进来了，我们走吧。

I don't want to be seen as a squeaky wheel." Is there anything you say there about as a resistance point for people?

我不想被视为一个吱吱作响的轮子。”你说有什么可以作为人们的阻力点吗？

Kenneth Berger: Well, I'm a big fan of internal family systems, which is this sort of psychotherapy technique that really talks about parts and the sort of parts of ourselves and the ways in which they don't always agree with each other.

肯尼思·伯杰：嗯，我是内部家庭系统的忠实粉丝，这是一种心理治疗技术，它真正谈论我们自己的各个部分以及它们并不总是彼此一致的方式。

Part of why I love this approach is, A, because we already use this language.

我喜欢这种方法的部分原因是，A，因为我们已经使用了这种语言。

We say, "Part of me thinks this, a part of me thinks that." And really when I talk about how to work through resistance, really it's about embracing and validating all of our parts.

我们说：“我的一部分这么想，我的一部分这么想。”事实上，当我谈论如何克服阻力时，实际上是关于拥抱和验证我们所有的部分。

Kenneth Berger: Because often we're really comfortable with one part of ourselves that we think is, "Oh, this part is virtuous and good and great, and this part is whiny and bad, and not great, and I don't respect that part of me as much." So really to sort of ask effectively, we generally need to embrace all these parts and really bring in all the information they're bringing in because if we ignore the part that's really scared to ask, well, then we're going to stay stuck.

肯尼思·伯杰：因为我们常常对自己的某一部分感到非常满意，我们认为，“哦，这一部分是善良的、善良的、伟大的，而这一部分是爱发牢骚的、坏的，而不是伟大的，我不太尊重我的那一部分。”因此，为了有效地提出问题，我们通常需要接受所有这些部分，并真正引入它们带来的所有信息，因为如果我们忽略了真正不敢提出问题的部分，那么我们就会陷入困境。

Kenneth Berger: Versus if we come in and say, "Hey, buddy, why are you scared?

肯尼思·伯杰：如果我们进来说：“嘿，伙计，你为什么害怕？

You seem terrified.

你看起来很害怕。

What's going on?

发生什么事了？

Oh, well man, you think your whole professional reputation has staked on this and you're an imposter and they're going to find out, and then you'll never work again?

哦，好吧，伙计，你认为你的整个职业声誉都押在了这件事上，而你是个冒名顶替者，他们会发现的，然后你就再也不会工作了？

Well, of course you'd be scared.

嗯，你当然会害怕。

That makes a ton of sense." And by embracing that, instead of ignoring that and being ashamed of that, that is often how we soften those fears and say, "I know that's scary, but we also know that's not really true.

这很有道理。”通过拥抱这一点，而不是忽视这一点并为此感到羞耻，这通常是我们减轻这些恐惧的方式，并说：“我知道这很可怕，但我们也知道这不是真的。

You're not an imposter, right?

你不是骗子吧？

You're an experienced professional."

你是一位经验丰富的专业人士。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Man, there's so many threads we can't follow here.

Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，有太多的线索我们无法追踪。

This whole line of internal family systems, right?

这整个内部家庭系统，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: That's its own podcast episode potentially.

Lenny Rachitsky：这可能是它自己的播客剧集。

And then imposter syndrome, we've touched a bunch of different podcast episodes, but I'll avoid going in that direction.

然后是冒名顶替综合症，我们接触了一堆不同的播客剧集，但我会避免朝这个方向发展。

Something you reminded me of is we just had Carole Robin on the podcast who taught this class touchy-feely at Stanford for a long time, which is all about helping people learn how to deal with other people, which we never learned in life.

你让我想起的是，我们刚刚在播客上邀请了卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin），她在斯坦福大学教授这门课程很长一段时间，内容都是关于帮助人们学习如何与他人打交道，这是我们在生活中从未学过的。

It's like a class, how to learn to work with other people.

这就像一堂课，学习如何与其他人合作。

Kenneth Berger: I took one of Stanford's T-Group Weekends, summer of 2020, I think a month after George Floyd was murdered and was facilitated by a black woman.

肯尼斯·伯杰：我参加了斯坦福大学 T-Group 周末活动，那是 2020 年夏天，我想是在乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀一个月后，并得到了一名黑人妇女的帮助。

And it was one of the most profound transformative weekends of my life.

这是我一生中最深刻的变革周末之一。

Because T-groups already people rave about them.

因为 T 组已经受到人们的热烈追捧。

But having it at that point in history with those people in the room, oof.

但在历史的那个时刻，和房间里的那些人在一起，哦。

Kenneth Berger: It was crazy.

肯尼思·伯杰：这太疯狂了。

I mean, it was really wild.

我的意思是，这真的很疯狂。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like every single person that has gone through, I think it's called Leaders in Tech is the broader umbrella term.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得每个经历过的人，我认为所谓的“科技领导者”是一个更广泛的总称。

And Carole talked about it.

卡罗尔谈到了这件事。

Everyone that has gone through it, 100% have told me that it's a transformative life experience for them.

每个经历过这一切的人 100% 都告诉我，这对他们来说是一次变革性的人生经历。

And you had a bonus transformational piece.

而且你还有一个额外的转型作品。

So anyway, if people want to check out that episode, I will include it in the show notes.

所以无论如何，如果人们想看那一集，我会将其包含在节目笔记中。

But the reason I brought it up is Carole shared this framework for how to actually give feedback in a way where people can receive it that I'll just highlight here.

但我提出这个问题的原因是卡罗尔分享了这个框架，说明如何以人们可以接收的方式实际提供反馈，我将在这里强调这一点。

I have it here.

我这里有。

Lenny Rachitsky: And it's somewhat related to nonviolent communication, which is what you touched on.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与非暴力沟通有一定关系，这就是你提到的。

And she told me, actually, she taught this way before nonviolent communication came out with their whole philosophy.

她告诉我，实际上，在非暴力沟通和他们的整个哲学问世之前，她就以这种方式进行教学。

And it's basically when you want to give someone feedback, the template is when you do a behavior, I feel a feeling, and she's big on like say actual feeling word not like, "I feel like, or I feel that," blah, blah, blah.

基本上，当你想给别人反馈时，模板是当你做某种行为时，我感受到一种感觉，她很喜欢说真实的感觉词，而不是“我感觉像，或者我感觉那样”等等。

And step three is, "I'm telling you this because..." and then what you want them to change.

第三步是，“我告诉你这个是因为……”然后你希望他们改变什么。

Do you find that sort of approach helpful?

您认为这种方法有帮助吗？

Kenneth Berger: I do.

肯尼思·伯杰：我愿意。

I teach the same thing.

我教同样的事情。

I think sort of Carole's approach and nonviolent communication, DBT teaches a similar approach.

我认为有点像卡罗尔的方法和非暴力沟通，DBT 教授了类似的方法。

They call dear man.

他们称亲爱的人。

Kenneth Berger: It's a dialectical behavioral therapy.

肯尼思·伯杰：这是一种辩证的行为疗法。

It's related to CBT.

这与CBT有关。

So there's kind of rough consensus in the sort of personal development world of how to ask.

因此，在个人发展领域，对于如何提问存在着某种粗略的共识。

And really what they have in common is around staying really factual because I think that what can we know factually well?

事实上，他们的共同点是保持真正的事实，因为我认为我们能真正了解什么？

We can know our thoughts, we can know our feelings because no one else can know that better than us.

我们可以了解我们的想法，我们可以了解我们的感受，因为没有人比我们更了解这一点。

Maybe we can trust our eyes.

也许我们可以相信自己的眼睛。

What would a video camera have recorded?

摄像机会记录什么？

And that's about it.

就是这样。

Kenneth Berger: So I think often we get really distracted by all these stories we have about the data, but when we bring it back to that fundamental core of this is what I think, this is what I feel, this is what I've observed in the world, it tends to make the ask a lot clearer versus these stories like you mentioned of, "I feel like you're an asshole." It's like, "Well, that's a story.

肯尼思·伯格：所以我认为我们经常被所有这些关于数据的故事分散注意力，但是当我们把它带回到我的想法、我的感受、我在世界上观察到的基本核心时，与你提到的“我觉得你是个混蛋”这样的故事相比，它往往会让我们的问题变得更加清晰。就像，“好吧，这是一个故事。

That's not a fact."

这不是事实。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I feel that is not the right way to say I feel.

我觉得这不是表达我的感受的正确方式。

What do you actually feel?

你的真实感受是什么？

No. Okay, so let's move to step three.

不，好的，让我们进入第三步。

We've been going on this whole tangent of therapy and stuff, which is amazing, but let's make sure we cover all three steps.

我们一直在进行整个治疗和其他事情，这真是太棒了，但让我们确保我们涵盖了所有三个步骤。

So step one again was articulate what you want.

所以第一步就是明确你想要什么。

Step two is ask for what you want.

第二步是询问你想要什么。

What's step three?

第三步是什么？

Kenneth Berger: So to me step three is actually the trickiest for most people.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以对我来说，第三步对于大多数人来说实际上是最棘手的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So far, they're all tricky to me.

Lenny Rachitsky：到目前为止，它们对我来说都很棘手。

Kenneth Berger: Oh yeah, they're all tricky, for sure.

肯尼思·伯杰：哦，是的，当然，它们都很棘手。

Kenneth Berger: But step three is accept the response.

肯尼思·伯杰：但第三步是接受回应。

And it might seem so simple, but it actually is kind of subtle.

它可能看起来很简单，但实际上有点微妙。

And so one reason is that idea of sort of the whole body yes or the hell yes.

所以一个原因就是那种“全身是”或“地狱是”的想法。

Because I think often we really want a yes.

因为我认为我们常常真的想要一个“是”。

And so we're very, very biased to look for a yes versus accepting no, "That was a no." If someone made this face, that's a no. It doesn't matter what comes out of their mouth.

因此，我们非常非常偏向于寻找“是”而不是接受“否”，“那是一个否”。如果有人做出这张脸，那就是不。从他们嘴里说出什么并不重要。

And so the challenge of accepting the response is often that of hearing the no, but not over accepting or under accepting it.

因此，接受回应的挑战通常是听到“不”，但不是过度接受或接受不足。

Kenneth Berger: Because I think sometimes what people who are really afraid to ask will do is they say, oh, well, that was a no. So it's no forever and I should never ask again.

肯尼思·伯杰：因为我认为有时那些真正害怕提问的人会说，哦，好吧，那是“不”。所以这不是永远，我不应该再问。

My dream is dead and nothing is ever going to happen for me again." And that's because they get so scared.

我的梦想破灭了，我再也不会发生任何事情了。”那是因为他们太害怕了。

But actually no, that's over accepting.

但实际上不，这是过度接受。

The no is just from this person right now in the way that you asked, which doesn't necessarily mean anything about the next time you ask to a different person in a different way, in a different time.

这个人现在就按照你问的方式说“不”，这并不一定意味着下次你在不同的时间以不同的方式向不同的人提出任何问题。

Kenneth Berger: And on the flip side, in that sort of more control freak mode, I think for them they'll often skip over the response say, "Well, they said no, but they don't know what they're talking about." Or they're my direct report, so they have to do what I say.

肯尼思·伯格：另一方面，在那种控制狂模式下，我认为对他们来说，他们经常会跳过这样的回应：“嗯，他们说不，但他们不知道自己在说什么。”或者他们是我的直接下属，所以他们必须按照我说的去做。

So these are all fundamentally disrespectful ways to operate in this relationship.

因此，这些都是在这种关系中运作的根本不尊重的方式。

When we're talking about asking for what we want, we're talking about influence.

当我们谈论寻求我们想要的东西时，我们谈论的是影响力。

So you need to have good relationships.

所以你需要有良好的人际关系。

You can't be influential with a bad relationship.

如果关系不好，你就不可能有影响力。

Kenneth Berger: So really accepting the response is about, yes, I'm going to be genuine about what I want, but I'm also going to genuinely care about you and have deep respect for your ability to consent or not consent to whatever the ask is.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以真正接受回应意味着，是的，我会真诚地表达我想要的东西，但我也会真诚地关心你，并深深尊重你同意或不同意任何要求的能力。

Because I think the counterintuitive thing is that often when we really respect people's no's, it can actually be more influential, more motivating.

因为我认为违反直觉的是，当我们真正尊重人们的“不”时，它实际上会更有影响力，更有动力。

If someone says, "Okay.

如果有人说：“好吧。

I'm not ready to deliver this on time." Be like, "Okay.

我还没准备好按时交付。”就像，“好吧。

Well, I'm going to give the project to another person."

好吧，我要把这个项目交给另一个人。”

Kenneth Berger: I'm taking your no at face value.

肯尼思·伯杰：我从表面上看你的拒绝。

And they say, "Oh gosh, well, I didn't realize that was going to be the consequence.

他们说：“天哪，好吧，我没有意识到会产生这样的后果。

Maybe I can get it done by that time." And so that way you're not forcing them and you're not coercing them, right?

也许到时候我就能完成它。”这样你就不会强迫他们，也不会胁迫他们，对吗？

You're just saying, "No, you said no?

你只是说：“不，你说不？

So that your no is no, and I accept that."

所以你的不就是不，我接受这一点。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So it feels like part of the skill here is preparing, is knowing.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以感觉这里的技能的一部分是准备，是了解。

Some people just say no and that's okay.

有些人只是说不，那没关系。

That's part of the experience.

这是体验的一部分。

Part of it is if there's this not yet component...

部分原因是如果还没有这个组件......

We had Mihika Kapoor on the podcast.

我们的播客中有米希卡·卡普尔 (Mihika Kapoor)。

She has a PM at Figma and she had this really great approach to building new things within companies is just like everything to her is not yet and no is a not yet.

她在 Figma 有一位产品经理，她有一种非常好的方法来在公司内部构建新事物，就像对她来说一切都还没有，没有还没有。

And the way you phrased it is it could just be the way you asked.

你表达的方式可能就是你问的方式。

It could be, maybe they'll agree if you can figure out a better way to pitch the thing.

如果你能找到更好的推销方式，他们可能会同意。

Is there anything more you can add there about just this idea of it's not no forever?

关于“事情并非永远”的想法，您还有什么可以补充的吗？

Kenneth Berger: Acceptance of the response is primarily an emotional regulation issue because once we get our emotions intact, it's just, is it yes or is it no?

肯尼思·伯杰：接受反应主要是一个情绪调节问题，因为一旦我们的情绪完好无损，那就只是，是还是不是？

And if it's no, which it probably is, most of the time the world tells us no, then the question is, "All right, what can I learn from this?

如果答案是否定的（很可能是这样），大多数时候世界都告诉我们不，那么问题就是：“好吧，我能从中学到什么？

What am I going to try next?" And so when we're able to emotionally regulate, it's all very cut and dry, right?

接下来我要尝试什么？”所以当我们能够情绪调节时，一切都非常简单，对吧？

It's like, "Okay.

就像是，“好吧。

Here's data to tell me what to try next."

这里的数据告诉我下一步要尝试什么。”

Kenneth Berger: And so really, 99% of the challenge tends to be all the feelings that come up for us when we hear no. Because We hate hearing no. It's so uncomfortable.

肯尼思·伯杰：实际上，99% 的挑战往往是当我们听到“不”时出现的所有感受。因为我们讨厌听到“不”。太不舒服了。

And so part of the practice of getting good at asking for what we want is recognizing you're going to hear no all the time, and that's completely normal and fine, and it doesn't need to be something so scary or awful.

因此，善于提出我们想要的东西的做法的一部分就是认识到你总是会听到“不”，这是完全正常和正常的，而且不需要是那么可怕或可怕的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Easier said than done in real life.

Lenny Rachitsky：现实生活中说起来容易做起来难。

Is there an example of either a client of yours...

有没有你的客户的例子...

I know you can't actually share specific details, but I'm just curious if there's an example that comes up of someone dealing with this and getting better at it, or your own career.

我知道你实际上无法分享具体细节，但我只是好奇是否有一个例子可以说明有人处理这个问题并在这方面做得更好，或者你自己的职业生涯。

Kenneth Berger: I gave a talk about this sort of right after it happened, but I was fired from Slack three different times, which I feel like has to be some kind of startup record.

Kenneth Berger：事情发生后我就做了一次关于这件事的演讲，但我被 Slack 解雇了三次，我觉得这一定是某种启动记录。

I don't know who would be the record-keeping body for this.

我不知道谁将是这件事的记录保存机构。

But now 10 years on, I have different perspective, of course.

但十年过去了，我当然有不同的看法。

And so this was almost exactly 10 years ago, spring of 2014 and I just gotten the job as the first PM at Slack.

那几乎是 10 年前的事了，也就是 2014 年春天，我刚刚得到了 Slack 第一位产品经理的职位。

It was already the hottest thing out there.

这已经是那里最热门的事情了。

It was only a couple dozen employees.

当时只有几十名员工。

Kenneth Berger: I came in excited, but also a little insecure because I had just come off my breakup with my co-founder.

肯尼思·伯杰（Kenneth Berger）：我很兴奋，但也有点不安全，因为我刚刚与联合创始人分手。

I just wanted to put my head down and do a good job.

我只想低下头，做好工作。

I was engaged at the time, so Slack already knew I was going to be going away on a bachelor or backpacking trip.

当时我订婚了，所以 Slack 已经知道我要去单身旅行或背包旅行。

I have a wedding and honeymoon in the fall.

我秋天有一个婚礼和蜜月。

And so I came in naive and overconfident of, "I've been a founder.

所以我天真又过于自信地说道：“我一直是一名创始人。

I've worked on iconic products.

我曾开发过标志性产品。

I know how to do this.

我知道该怎么做。

I'm a pro.

我是专业人士。

I'm just going to go in and do the work."

我只是要进去做工作。”

Kenneth Berger: So instead of getting really clear on what does success look like here or what's your culture or what are your expectations of me, I just went in and made my best guess and went for it.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以，我并没有真正弄清楚这里的成功是什么样子，或者你的文化是什么，或者你对我的期望是什么，我只是进去做了我最好的猜测，然后就去做了。

And lo and behold, turns out what I came in with, that supreme overconfidence was not what they wanted at all.

你瞧，事实证明，我带来的结果是，那种极度的过度自信根本不是他们想要的。

They'd kind of been in the trenches reinventing from the game to Slack.

他们一直在从游戏到 Slack 进行重塑。

They'd been through layoffs, really hard times together.

他们一起经历过裁员，一起经历过非常艰难的时期。

So they wanted someone to come in humble and to earn their trust of this kind of core team that had been together for years.

因此，他们希望有人谦虚地进来，赢得他们对这个已经在一起多年的核心团队的信任。

Kenneth Berger: I just didn't get any of that.

肯尼思·伯杰：我只是什么也没得到。

I wasn't hearing that feedback.

我没有听到那个反馈。

I wasn't hearing those nos, and I wasn't articulating what I wanted.

我没有听到这些反对意见，也没有明确表达我想要什么。

What I wanted was really very basic.

我想要的其实是非常基本的。

I just wanted to figure out how to do a good job, and I wanted to have a good relationship with the CEO because I was working for him.

我只是想弄清楚如何做好工作，并且我想与首席执行官建立良好的关系，因为我为他工作。

And you need to have a good relationship with your boss.

而且你需要和你的老板有良好的关系。

But the problem was in the first firing anyway was I had not articulated those goals.

但问题是在第一次解雇时我并没有明确表达这些目标。

Kenneth Berger: And so I shouldn't have been surprised when six weeks into my tenure at Slack, I came back from my backpacking trip with my bachelor buddies, and I had an email in my inbox saying, "Hey, you're fired.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以，当我在 Slack 任职六周后，我和我的单身汉伙伴从背包旅行回来，我的收件箱里收到一封电子邮件说：“嘿，你被解雇了，我不应该感到惊讶。

It seems like it's not working out.

看来是行不通了。

Let me know how you want to wrap it up." So as you can imagine, I freaked out.

让我知道你想如何结束它。”所以你可以想象，我吓坏了。

I loved this job, I love this company, so I profusely apologized.

我喜欢这份工作，我喜欢这家公司，所以我深深地道歉。

I said, "I'll do whatever it takes.

我说：“我会尽一切努力。

I'm so sorry.

我很抱歉。

I'm going to be committed to turn this around."

我将致力于扭转这一局面。”

Kenneth Berger: And so early stage startup turns out firing doesn't always stick.

肯尼思·伯杰：因此，早期初创公司的解雇并不总是持续下去。

Monday morning, I had my job back.

周一早上，我恢复了工作。

But obviously things were not the same as they'd been before because in the second era, what I wanted was sort of better articulated more clear, but all of a sudden that fear that had been under the surface, that insecurity was now very, very present every day because I was terrified of was I going to get fired?

但显然事情与以前不一样了，因为在第二个时代，我想要的东西可以更好地表达得更清楚，但突然之间，表面下的恐惧，不安全感现在每天都非常非常存在，因为我害怕我会被解雇吗？

Was I going to not make the most of this opportunity?

我会不会充分利用这个机会？

And so I went fully into people pleaser mode.

所以我完全进入了取悦他人的模式。

And so that meant that even though what I desperately wanted was to have this good relationship was to be successful, build a great product.

因此，这意味着即使我迫切希望拥有这种良好的关系，也能取得成功，打造出一款出色的产品。

I had a year of one-on-ones with the CEO.

我与首席执行官进行了一年的一对一交流。

Kenneth Berger: I never, never ever asked for what I wanted.

肯尼思·伯杰：我从来、从来没有要求过我想要的东西。

I never said it out loud because I was scared.

我从来没有大声说出来，因为我很害怕。

I was scared of what the consequences were.

我很害怕后果是什么。

I knew there were a hundred PMs standing behind me ready to take my job if the CEO is ever a moment unhappy with me.

我知道，如果首席执行官对我有任何不满意的时刻，有一百名产品经理站在我身后准备接替我的工作。

I said, "No, I'm not going to take the risk.

我说：“不，我不会冒险。

I'm too scared of what the consequences might be." And so I held all that fear and all those desires of, "I just want to do a great job.

我太害怕可能产生的后果了。”所以我怀揣着所有的恐惧和所有的渴望，“我只想做好工作。

I want us to be awesome partners and build this amazing industry changing product."

我希望我们成为出色的合作伙伴，打造这款令人惊叹的改变行业的产品。”

Kenneth Berger: I never said any of that stuff out loud.

肯尼思·伯杰：我从来没有大声说过这些话。

I just put my head down and I tried to obey.

我只是低下头，试图服从。

And so as you can imagine, this didn't work very well.

正如你可以想象的那样，这并没有起到很好的作用。

I was feeling horrible day to day.

我每天都感觉很糟糕。

I was terrified of this guy I was working for.

我很害怕为我工作的这个人。

And so again, I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was, when I got fired for the second time.

再说一次，我不应该感到惊讶，但当我第二次被解雇时，我感到惊讶。

It wasn't quite firing.

还没有完全开火。

But this time I'd come back from my honeymoon and I had a phone call on Monday that said, "Seems like product management is not working out for Slack.

但这一次我度完蜜月回来，周一接到一个电话，说：“产品管理似乎不适合 Slack。

We're actually just going to get rid of product.

我们实际上只是要摆脱产品。

You're going to be user research.

你将进行用户研究。

It's going to be fine."

一切都会好起来的。”

Kenneth Berger: And for me, I love user research, but that was the beginning of my career.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，我喜欢用户研究，但那是我职业生涯的开始。

I was not interested in going back to that.

我没有兴趣回到那个话题。

What was fascinating was at that point, I was actually able to articulate what I wanted there and was willing to say it out loud.

令人着迷的是，在那一刻，我实际上能够清楚地表达出我想要的东西，并且愿意大声说出来。

Because what I wanted was, "No, let's keep me in product.

因为我想要的是，“不，让我们把我留在产品中。

I've got an idea for how we can run it." So I wrote a proposal, I sent it around to the management team.

我已经有了一个关于如何运行它的想法。”所以我写了一份提案，并将其发送给管理团队。

Turns out, when you actually ask for what you want out loud, you're much more likely to get it.

事实证明，当你真正大声提出你想要的东西时，你更有可能得到它。

Kenneth Berger: And so within a week, this new plan had traction with the management team team and I had my old job back again.

肯尼思·伯杰：一周之内，这个新计划就受到了管理团队的关注，我又恢复了原来的工作。

Everything was fine except of course it wasn't fine because now I was scared, but the stakes seemed really high, and this is where that deep imposter syndrome sit in.

一切都很好，当然，除了不太好，因为现在我很害怕，但赌注似乎真的很高，这就是深度冒名顶替综合症的根源。

I was like, "Am I even any good at this?

我当时想，“我擅长这个吗？

Should I even be in product management?

我是否应该从事产品管理？

Am I ever going to work in this industry again?

我还会再从事这个行业吗？

Is this going to be my dark secret that I take to the grave that Stewart Butterfield fired me three times?"

难道这会成为我被斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德解雇了三次而带进坟墓的黑暗秘密吗？”

Kenneth Berger: I think what I couldn't be with in that moment was the no's, because I was getting no after no after no after no from Stewart and the rest of the management team saying, "What you're doing is not working for us, right?

肯尼思·伯杰：我认为那一刻我不能接受的是“不”，因为我从斯图尔特和管理团队的其他成员那里得到了一个又一个的否定，他们说：“你所做的事情对我们不起作用，对吗？

Your ask are not landing.

你的要求没有落地。

You're not being effective in the way that you want to be effective." And because I wasn't able to hear those no's again, because to that emotional regulation standpoint, I couldn't handle the feelings of like, "Ugh, maybe what I'm doing is not good enough."

你没有按照你想要的方式发挥作用。”因为我无法再次听到那些“不”，因为从情绪调节的角度来看，我无法处理这样的感觉，“呃，也许我正在做的事情还不够好。”

Kenneth Berger: So instead of pointing the finger at myself, I pointed the finger at him.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以我没有把矛头指向我自己，而是指向了他。

I said, "You know what?

我说：“你知道吗？

Actually this guy, he's not such a great manager.

其实这个人，并不是一个多么出色的管理者。

He's not so good at product.

他不太擅长产品。

I'm the one who was on the ground with the users.

我是与用户一起在现场的人。

I know what's right." Against all evidence to the contrary, by the way, is this product luminary, visionary, famous person.

我知道什么是对的。”顺便说一句，与所有相反的证据相反，这款产品是一位杰出的、有远见的名人。

Kenneth Berger: So clearly not based on any facts, but it was an emotional issue of I couldn't deal with the reality of what I was doing was not working.

肯尼思·伯杰：很明显，这不是基于任何事实，但这是一个情感问题，因为我无法应对我所做的事情不起作用的现实。

And so again, because I was not articulating what I wanted, I was not asking for it and I certainly was not listening to the no's.

再说一次，因为我没有明确表达我想要什么，所以我没有要求它，我当然也没有听别人说“不”。

I shouldn't have been surprised when finally the third time it came down, and this time it was serious because we had HR.

当最后第三次出现这种情况时，我不应该感到惊讶，这一次情况很严重，因为我们有人力资源部门。

Kenneth Berger: So it turns out once you hire HR, the firings are final.

肯尼思·伯杰：所以事实证明，一旦你雇用了人力资源部，解雇就是最终的。

And so I only made it to a year at Slack and it was a year of just utter torture because I spent that year being fully out of integrity with myself.

所以我只在 Slack 呆了一年，这是完全折磨的一年，因为那一年我完全不诚实地对待自己。

Never saying what I really wanted, how I really felt because it didn't feel safe.

从来没有说出我真正想要什么，我真正的感受，因为这感觉不安全。

I was too scared.

我太害怕了。

I kept it all inside.

我把它全都藏在里面了。

And it took me six months or a year even after that to really feel safe and okay again.

在那之后我花了六个月甚至一年的时间才真正感到安全和好起来。

It was a serious decompression time.

这是一个严重的减压时间。

Kenneth Berger: My wife and I had a baby during that time.

肯尼思·伯杰：那段时间我和妻子生了一个孩子。

I was on zero sleep.

我的睡眠时间为零。

It was a rough, rough period.

那是一段艰难、艰难的时期。

But the irony is that when I actually came out of that experience, the reality of it was extremely simple.

但讽刺的是，当我真正从那次经历中走出来时，事实却极其简单。

I hadn't articulated what I wanted.

我没有明确表达我想要什么。

I hadn't asked for what I wanted.

我没有要求我想要的东西。

I had not listened to the no's in response to my non-ask.

我没有听从对我不问的回应。

Kenneth Berger: And so of course I was unhappy with the result.

肯尼思·伯杰：我当然对结果不满意。

Why would I have expected anything different?

为什么我会期待不同的事情呢？

I wasn't the victim.

我不是受害者。

Stewart wasn't the villain.

斯图尔特不是恶棍。

It was just ineffective asking.

只是询问没有效果。

And so to me, especially because I was already on that path towards coaching, that lesson hit really hard in terms of how do we make this work more sustainable?

所以对我来说，尤其是因为我已经走上了教练之路，这一课对我来说非常沉重，因为我们如何使这项工作更具可持续性？

Kenneth Berger: We stay in integrity with ourselves even when it's hard, even when it's scary, even when we don't know exactly what the outcome is going to be.

肯尼思·伯杰：即使困难重重，即使令人恐惧，即使我们不知道结果会是什么，我们仍能保持对自己的正直。

And so that's really the story of how I became a coach, of seeing exactly how much I'd screwed up at Slack and seeing how much I had suffered and how much a lot of people suffer in these similar circumstances.

这就是我如何成为一名教练的故事，我清楚地看到了我在 Slack 上搞砸了多少，看到了我遭受了多少痛苦，以及有多少人在这些类似的情况下遭受了多少痛苦。

All you have to do to turn it around is ask for what you want.

要扭转局面，你所要做的就是提出你想要的东西。

Kenneth Berger: So this is why I'm so passionate about this stuff because it can sound so fluffy to say, "Oh, focus on integrity.

肯尼思·伯杰：这就是为什么我对这些东西如此热情，因为说“哦，注重诚信”听起来很轻率。

Honor your desires.

尊重你的愿望。

No, it's real life stuff of a year of suffering, of pain, of fear." I don't want other people to be going through that and that's why I'm so passionate about this stuff.

不，这是现实生活中一年的痛苦、痛苦和恐惧。”我不希望其他人经历这些，这就是为什么我对这些东西如此热情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, what a story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，真是一个故事。

I love that it's kind of a microcosm of everything we've talked about.

我喜欢它是我们所讨论的一切的缩影。

You've did all the things that you teach people to avoid.

你已经做了所有你教人们避免的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think what's interesting is you went through these three phases.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为有趣的是你经历了这三个阶段。

Interestingly, at the beginning, your first phase was you were not hearing the no's, but it was rooted in this confidence that you're a founder, you're awesome.

有趣的是，一开始，你的第一阶段是你没有听到拒绝，但它植根于你是创始人、你很棒的信心。

They're so lucky to have you.

他们很幸运有你。

I know what I'm doing, get out of my way.

我知道我在做什么，别挡我的路。

And then the third phase, you also, the issue there was you weren't hearing the no's, but it was more from fear of being fired again.

然后第三阶段，你也，那里的问题是你没有听到拒绝，但更多的是因为害怕再次被解雇。

And so it's interesting that there's these different reasons you're not hearing what people are actually saying.

有趣的是，你听不到人们真正在说什么的原因有很多。

Kenneth Berger: Totally.

肯尼思·伯杰：完全可以。

Well, and to me, the first one is about articulation as well because I think that if in the beginning it articulated that, "Yeah, I'm confident, but actually I want to do a really good job and I want to have good relationships.

嗯，对我来说，第一个也是关于表达，因为我认为如果一开始它就表达了这一点，“是的，我很有信心，但实际上我想做得很好，我想拥有良好的关系。

So let me think about intentionally, how do I create those outcomes?" But because I hadn't articulated that's what I wanted, it didn't even occur to me like, "Oh yeah, I need to do some intentional relationship building, figure out some metrics for success."

所以让我有意识地思考一下，我如何创造这些结果？”但是因为我没有明确表达这就是我想要的，所以我什至没有想到，“哦，是的，我需要建立一些有意识的关系，找出一些成功的指标。”

Kenneth Berger: It was an early stage startup.

Kenneth Berger：这是一家早期初创公司。

There wasn't a ton of sort of process or structure in place, suffice to say.

可以说，没有大量的流程或结构到位。

And so if I wanted that, I needed to create it myself, but because I hadn't articulated that any of that was important to me, I just flew by the seat of my pants and it took failing to get some data to say, "Ooh, yeah, maybe I need to look at this more closely."

因此，如果我想要这个，我需要自己创建它，但因为我没有明确说明其中任何一个对我来说都很重要，所以我只是凭感觉行事，在无法获得一些数据的情况下才说：“哦，是的，也许我需要更仔细地研究这个问题。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine you've gone through this exercise many times, but say you were to do it again, what would you do differently and what do you think would've happened?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想您已经多次进行过这种练习，但是假设您再做一次，您会采取哪些不同的做法以及您认为会发生什么？

Do you think you would've stayed there for many, many years, had a product at Slack at this point?

您认为您会在那里呆很多很多年，此时在 Slack 上有一个产品吗？

Just imagining that reality, what would you have done differently?

想象一下现实，你会采取什么不同的做法？

And then what would you have imagined have turned out?

那么你想象的结果会怎样呢？

Kenneth Berger: Well, I mean obviously broadly, I would've asked for what I wanted and what I wanted was I wanted to do the best work of our life.

肯尼思·伯杰：嗯，我的意思显然是广泛的，我会要求我想要什么，而我想要的是我想做我们一生中最好的工作。

I wanted to have a deep professional partner in the CEO and the rest of the product and management team.

我希望在首席执行官以及产品和管理团队的其他成员中拥有一位深厚的专业合作伙伴。

And I wanted to produce great work that people loved.

我想创作出人们喜爱的伟大作品。

And that was part of why I was attracted to the culture and the mission and the company.

这就是我被公司文化、使命和公司所吸引的部分原因。

And so this is what's tricky is of course, that's what I would've done.

所以这当然是棘手的，这就是我会做的。

Now, do I know what the outcome would've been?

现在，我知道结果会怎样吗？

Kenneth Berger: No, I might've been fired even sooner.

肯尼思·伯杰：不，我可能会更早被解雇。

They might've said, "No, this is not working out.

他们可能会说：“不，这行不通。

Let's just be done here." So that's what's tricky about this is it really isn't about the outcome.

我们就在这里结束吧。”所以这就是棘手的地方，因为它实际上与结果无关。

Of course, asking for what you want makes you more likely to get the outcome you want, but you don't do it for guarantee of a certain outcome because no one can promise you that.

当然，提出你想要的东西会让你更有可能得到你想要的结果，但你这样做并不是为了保证某个结果，因为没有人可以向你保证这一点。

You do it so you can stay in integrity with yourself and not suffer through all this.

你这样做是为了保持对自己的正直，而不是经历这一切。

Because at least then I would've said, "You know what?

因为至少那时我会说：“你知道吗？

It didn't work out.

但没有成功。

At least I'm not sitting here suffering.

至少我没有坐在这里受苦。

I can get another job at another startup.

我可以在另一家初创公司找到另一份工作。

It's not the end of the world."

这不是世界末日。”

Kenneth Berger: And I think that the mistake we make is pretending that it is of saying, going into fight or flight and saying, "This is a severe existential threat to who I am and my safety in the world," versus being like, "I'm disappointed.

肯尼思·伯杰：我认为我们犯的错误是假装是在战斗或逃跑，并说“这对我是谁以及我在世界上的安全构成了严重的生存威胁”，而不是说“我很失望。”

I wish it had worked out, but it didn't."

我希望事情能够成功，但事实并非如此。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really profound point that this practice isn't necessarily to just have everything work out beautifully and to get the things you're looking for.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常深刻的观点，这种做法不一定只是让一切顺利进行并得到你正在寻找的东西。

It's to feel like you did, which you could have and to feel integrity with yourself that you did what you needed to do and you're not going to regret something down the road.

这是一种感觉，就像你所做的那样，你可以拥有这种感觉，并且对自己感到诚实，你做了你需要做的事情，并且你不会在未来后悔。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to take a quick tangent down the being the first PM route real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：我要快速切入第一个 PM 路线。

There's a lot of people that think about being the first PM at a startup join as the first PM.

有很多人考虑成为初创公司的第一位 PM，加入成为第一位 PM。

I imagine you work with people asking for advice along these lines.

我想你会和那些寻求类似建议的人一起工作。

It's classically a very challenging role.

这是一个非常具有挑战性的经典角色。

Many people don't last.

很多人都坚持不了。

Many people follow your trajectory where it's like, "Oh, shit.

许多人追随你的轨迹，就像是，“哦，该死。

What have I done?" Any advice for people that are a first PM at a company or startup or thinking about that role?" What can you tell them to help them be successful or at least not suffer?

我做了什么？”对于公司或初创公司的第一任产品经理或考虑担任该职位的人有什么建议吗？”您可以告诉他们什么来帮助他们成功或至少不遭受痛苦？

Kenneth Berger: To me, it really is about the relationship with the CEO or with the founders because that's the root of a lot of the issues that come out of that scenario because it's not always you.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，这确实是与首席执行官或创始人的关系有关，因为这是这种情况下出现的许多问题的根源，因为问题并不总是你。

In my story, I think it was primarily about me, but I also work with a lot of founders who are going through really tough things.

在我的故事中，我认为这主要是关于我自己的，但我也与许多正在经历非常艰难的事情的创始人一起工作。

My clue to people who report to a founder is to say, "Imagine if you're confused about how your founder is behaving.

我对向创始人汇报的人的建议是：“想象一下，如果你对创始人的行为感到困惑。

Imagine that they're terrified all the time, and see if that makes their behavior more clear."

想象一下他们一直处于恐惧之中，看看这是否会让他们的行为更加清晰。”

Kenneth Berger: Because it is scary to be a founder.

肯尼思·伯杰：因为成为创始人很可怕。

Everything is on your shoulders.

一切都在你的肩上。

And I think a lot of people do feel that sense of high stakes all the time.

我认为很多人确实一直感受到这种高风险的感觉。

And so I think being real about that of what is the state that the person or the people you're working for are in and sort of working within that versus sort of pretending that it's something else or wishing that it were something else is the path to having a healthy relationship.

所以我认为，真实地了解你所为之工作的人所处的状态，并在这种状态下工作，而不是假装是别的东西或希望是别的东西，才是建立健康关系的途径。

Because if you don't have a healthy relationship with the person you're working for, you're not going to get anything done.

因为如果你与你的老板没有良好的关系，你就什么也做不了。

You're not going to succeed in any meaningful way.

你不会以任何有意义的方式取得成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that framework of how to think about why a founder is behaving in a certain way.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个如何思考创始人为何以某种方式行事的框架。

Just maybe a last following thread there is just what should people look for to help them understand if the founder and them are a good fit, if they're going to have a good time working with that founder?

也许最后一个主题是人们应该寻找什么来帮助他们了解创始人和他们是否合适，他们是否会与该创始人合作愉快？

Is there anything just like questions they might ask or ways of operating that are useful to understand like, "Okay, I think I'll be okay with this founder in this company as the first PM or not.

是否有类似他们可能会问的问题或有助于理解的操作方式，例如“好吧，我想我是否同意这位创始人在这家公司担任第一任产品经理。

Kenneth Berger: I think it's a hard thing to generalize about, but to me it really is about understanding expectations.

肯尼思·伯杰：我认为这是一件很难概括的事情，但对我来说，这确实是关于理解期望。

I guess this is a predictable coming from me, "But what do you really want?

我想这是我预料到的，“但是你真正想要什么？

Because I think that often the founders put together a job description, but then they're faced with a real human being who has real human subtleties and things they're good at or not so good at." And so being very, very clear about expectations and of figuring out collaboratively a way to work together that's effective to me is there's no guarantees of course, but it gives you a more sure path to having a productive relationship.

因为我认为，创始人通常会制定一份工作描述，但随后他们面对的是一个真实的人，这个人具有真正的人性微妙之处以及他们擅长或不擅长的事情。”因此，非常非常清楚地了解期望并找出对我来说有效的合作方式当然没有任何保证，但它为您提供了一条更确定的途径来建立富有成效的关系。

Kenneth Berger: It's actually something that I recommend to a lot of founders for maybe their first 10 or 15, or 20 employees of just have a relationship design conversation with each of them when they're first hired.

Kenneth Berger：这实际上是我向很多创始人推荐的东西，可能是他们的前 10 名、15 名或 20 名员工在第一次受聘时与他们每个人进行关系设计对话。

Because I think a lot of us come in naive the way I did, assuming, "Oh yeah, I'm just going to come in and do my thing the way I've always done it.

因为我认为我们很多人都像我一样天真地认为，“哦，是的，我只是要进来并按照我一直做的方式做我的事情。

It's going to be fine." Versus coming in and saying, "I actually don't know how I'm going to operate at this company.

一切都会好起来的。”而不是进来说：“我实际上不知道我将如何在这家公司运营。

I have range like anyone has range, and I don't know what this company needs and who else is here and sort of what my role and what my place is going to be within these other people.

我和其他人一样都有自己的范围，但我不知道这家公司需要什么，也不知道这里还有谁，也不知道我的角色是什么，我在这些其他人中的位置是什么。

And so by really understanding that intentionally and not from a place of performance management, you're already doing this poorly, you're in big trouble.

因此，通过真正有意地而不是从绩效管理的角度理解这一点，你已经做得很糟糕，你遇到了大麻烦。

But what is the best way to work together given who we have now and what we want and what we need?

但考虑到我们现在拥有的人员以及我们想要什么和我们需要什么，最好的合作方式是什么？

Let's figure it out.

让我们弄清楚一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to our core topic, is there anything that we didn't cover, anything that I should have asked you about the skill, the art of asking for what you want?

Lenny Rachitsky：回到我们的核心话题，还有什么是我们没有涉及到的吗？有什么我应该问你的关于技能、提出你想要的东西的艺术的问题吗？

Anything else you want to leave listeners with?

您还有什么想留给听众的吗？

Kenneth Berger: I do want to mention something that I hear a lot from founders when I talk about the piece of working through resistance because I think a lot of them say, "Oh, you want me to let go of fear and focus on what I want?

肯尼思·伯杰：我确实想提一下，当我谈论克服阻力的过程时，我从创始人那里听到了很多话，因为我想他们中的很多人都会说，“哦，你想让我放弃恐惧，专注于我想要的事情吗？

Well, I mean, I've been running from fear my whole career.

嗯，我的意思是，我的整个职业生涯都在逃避恐惧。

That's how I'm so hard-working and I'm so smart is I'm always afraid I'm not good enough."

这就是我如此勤奋、如此聪明的原因，因为我总是担心自己不够好。”

Kenneth Berger: Am I going to be able to do this job without fear hounding me every step of the way?

肯尼思·伯杰：我是否能够完成这项工作，而不用担心每一步都困扰着我？

I just remember the first time I heard this, it broke my heart, and now I've heard it dozens of times I'd say.

我只记得我第一次听到这句话时，我的心都碎了，现在我已经听了几十次了。

So I mean, it really is.

所以我的意思是，确实如此。

I think it's a belief that sits deep in the hearts of a lot of us high achieving Silicon Valley tech types of, "My fear of not being good enough is what drives me to be great."

我认为这是一种深深扎根于我们许多硅谷高成就科技人士内心深处的信念：“我对自己不够优秀的恐惧驱使我变得伟大。”

Kenneth Berger: And I just want to come out here and say there's other ways to motivate.

肯尼思·伯杰：我只想在这里说还有其他激励方式。

You can motivate based on joy, based on vision, based on your inspiration in this vision of what you want.

你可以基于喜悦、基于愿景、基于你对你想要的愿景的灵感来激励。

I think a lot of folks I talk to are skeptical understandably because operated a different way their whole life and all I can really say is try it.

我认为与我交谈的很多人都持怀疑态度，这是可以理解的，因为他们一生都以不同的方式运作，我真正能说的是尝试一下。

Try following an inspiring vision that's really meaningful to you and just see what it's like to not be living in fear all the time because it is a big difference and it's really meaningful.

尝试遵循一个对你来说真正有意义的鼓舞人心的愿景，看看不总是生活在恐惧中是什么感觉，因为这是一个很大的区别，而且真的很有意义。

It matters a lot.

这很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: So is the fear there that if they ask for what they want, they'll get what they want and they let go of this drive to prove themselves?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，是否担心如果他们提出自己想要的东西，他们就会得到他们想要的东西，然后他们就放弃了证明自己的动力？

And is that the fear?

这就是恐惧吗？

How is it that they move away from that need to prove themselves?

他们是如何摆脱证明自己的需要的呢？

Kenneth Berger: Well, I mean that's a longer story.

肯尼思·伯杰：嗯，我的意思是这是一个更长的故事。

I would say managing our own fear as a sort of lifelong practice.

我想说的是，管理我们自己的恐惧是一种终生的练习。

I'm not going to claim I'm anywhere near done with it.

我不会声称我已接近完成它。

But I guess I'd just say that I think part of the big shift I see in personal development for people I work with is from saying, "Oh, no, my fear is good.

但我想我只想说，我认为我在同事的个人发展方面看到的重大转变的一部分是来自于说：“哦，不，我的恐惧是好的。

I need it.

我需要它。

It's keeping me safe."

它保证了我的安全。”

Kenneth Berger: To saying, "Fear is for when there's a tiger chasing you and there's no tiger chasing me." I'm sitting in my office in a desk chair on a zoom call.

肯尼思·伯格：“恐惧是因为有一只老虎在追你，而没有老虎在追我。”我坐在办公室的办公椅上进行 Zoom 通话。

There's no real danger here.

这里没有真正的危险。

And so fear is not particularly functional.

所以恐惧并不是特别有用。

And so when they start realizing that, the practice becomes, "Oh yeah, I'm feeling afraid." But I'm reminding myself there's not a tiger in the room.

因此，当他们开始意识到这一点时，做法就变成了，“哦，是的，我感到害怕。”但我提醒自己房间里没有老虎。

If I really want to get things done, achieve my goals, I need to focus on vision on what I want to achieve in the world, not on avoiding all these fears.

如果我真的想把事情做好，实现我的目标，我需要专注于我想在世界上实现的目标，而不是避免所有这些恐惧。

So that's the short of it.

这就是它的缺点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

It reminds me, we have a chat...

它提醒我，我们有聊天......

I had a chat with Matt Mochari, and we spent a bunch of time on dealing with fear and overcoming fear.

我和马特·莫查里（Matt Mochari）聊了聊，我们花了很多时间来应对恐惧和克服恐惧。

So folks want to dig deeper there.

所以人们想在那里深入挖掘。

They could check out that episode.

他们可以看看那一集。

Just maybe one more question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，也许还有一个问题。

I want to take us to Contrarian Corner, classic contrarian corner.

我想带我们去逆向角，经典的逆向角。

I'm curious if there's anything that you have a contrarian opinion about, something that you believe that most other people don't.

我很好奇你是否对某些事情有相反的看法，或者你认为大多数人不这么认为的事情。

Kenneth Berger: For me, I'm not a big believer in discipline that I think some folks come to coaching looking for a drill sergeant and say, "All right.

肯尼思·伯杰：对我来说，我不太相信纪律，我认为有些人来寻找教练时会说：“好吧。

Shout at me and tell me to do better." And I start to say, "That's not how I operate." Because it's not the discipline doesn't work, but it's like people-pleasing.

对我大喊大叫，告诉我要做得更好。”然后我开始说，“这不是我的行事方式。”因为这并不是纪律不起作用，而是为了取悦人们。

It's a short-term coping strategy.

这是一种短期应对策略。

Discipline will get you in the gym for a week, but it's not going to get you in the gym for a year.

纪律可以让你在健身房呆一周，但不会让你在健身房待一年。

The people who are in the gym for a year are doing it because they want to.

那些在健身房呆了一年的人之所以这么做是因为他们想这么做。

Kenneth Berger: There's actually something that's motivating for them in that.

肯尼思·伯杰：这实际上有一些东西激励着他们。

It's not just, "Oh, I hate this, but I'm going to go anyway." And so I try to be really clear with people about that, that I'm not going to be the drill sergeant because it's unsustainable.

这不仅仅是“哦，我讨厌这个，但我还是要去。”所以我试着向人们明确这一点，我不会成为教官，因为这是不可持续的。

Someone shouting at you is not going to get you moving towards what you want in life over multiple years.

有人对你大喊大叫并不会让你多年来朝着你想要的生活前进。

It's days or weeks or even hours thing.

这是几天、几周甚至几个小时的事情。

And so I really look for a higher bar to say, "Let's look for true long-term sustainable motivation," which means relying on vision, pursuing what you want.

所以我真的在寻找更高的标准，“让我们寻找真正的长期可持续动力”，这意味着依靠愿景，追求你想要的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that it all ties back to knowing what you want, asking for what you want, and then dealing with the answers that you get.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一切都与了解你想要什么、询问你想要什么，然后处理你得到的答案有关。

Kenneth Berger: I am a broken record admittedly.

肯尼思·伯杰：不可否认，我是一个破纪录的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Kenneth, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

肯尼斯，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Kenneth Berger: No, but just thank you for letting me share this stuff.

肯尼思·伯杰：不，但谢谢你让我分享这些东西。

It really is my life's work and I'm very passionate about it and I hope it's helpful for people.

这确实是我一生的工作，我对此充满热情，我希望它对人们有帮助。

I'm going to be writing more about it on LinkedIn.

我将在 LinkedIn 上写更多相关内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

We'll point people there.

我们会指点那里的人。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Kenneth Berger: Well, I already mentioned Radical Candor.

肯尼思·伯杰：嗯，我已经提到过“激进坦诚”。

I think that is for sure a modern classic and I think that whole idea of challenging directly, but caring personally is very much aligned with what I'm talking about, right?

我认为这肯定是一个现代经典，我认为直接挑战但个人关怀的整个想法与我所说的非常一致，对吧？

Because you need the relationships and you need to actually speak your truth.

因为你需要人际关系，并且需要说出你的真相。

So I love Kim Scott's writing on that stuff.

所以我喜欢 Kim Scott 写的关于这些东西的文章。

Lenny Rachitsky: We had a Kim Scott on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们的播客中有一位 Kim Scott。

Folks want to dig deeper there.

人们想在那里挖得更深。

We'll link to that episode.

我们将链接到该集。

I'll let you keep going.

我会让你继续走下去。

Sorry for the interruption.

抱歉打扰了。

Kenneth Berger: Yeah.

肯尼思·伯杰：是的。

I mean I mentioned before, but I actually took Jonny Miller's Nervous System Mastery course.

我的意思是我之前提到过，但我实际上参加了乔尼·米勒的神经系统掌握课程。

I just wrapped up.

我刚刚结束。

So you've had lots of great personal professional development thinkers on the podcast, so thank you for introducing me to them.

播客中有很多伟大的个人职业发展思想家，所以感谢您向我介绍他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm so happy to hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴听到这个消息。

We'll link to that episode as well.

我们也会链接到该集。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

What a circle of life we've got here, guests following other guests, taking their courses, joining the podcast.

我们这里的生活圈子真好，客人跟随其他客人，参加他们的课程，加入播客。

What a happy world.

多么幸福的世界啊。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Any other books before we move on?

在我们继续之前还有其他书吗？

Kenneth Berger: I also love the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, so I'm pretty sure other guests have mentioned that as well.

Kenneth Berger：我也喜欢自觉领导力的 15 条承诺，所以我很确定其他嘉宾也提到了这一点。

But to me, part of why I like that is that I think a lot of personal development books are not very directive.

但对我来说，我喜欢这一点的部分原因是我认为很多个人发展书籍都不是很有指导性。

They say, "Oh, just dig deeply and find your truth." And while there is value to that, of course, I think sometimes it's nice to have some direction of, "Here's 15 things that generally your life's going to be better if you do them." And so to me, it's a nice balance of embracing the really deep stuff of how to live a good life and be effective in the world and be really directive.

他们说：“哦，只要深入挖掘并找到你的真相即可。”当然，虽然这很有价值，但我认为有时有一些指导是件好事，“这里有 15 件事，如果你去做的话，通常你的生活会变得更好。”所以对我来说，这是一种很好的平衡，既拥抱真正深刻的东西，即如何过上美好的生活，如何在世界上发挥作用，又具有真正的指导意义。

Try this stuff.

试试这个东西。

It works.

它有效。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Kenneth Berger: I'm a recent tennis fanatic, so it was one of the things I picked up during the pandemic, so I really enjoyed Netflix's Breakpoint because it's a documentary on the best tennis players in the world.

肯尼思·伯杰：我最近是一名网球狂热者，所以这是我在大流行期间学到的东西之一，所以我真的很喜欢 Netflix 的《断点》，因为它是一部关于世界上最好的网球运动员的纪录片。

I just find it so...

我就是觉得这样...

I don't know.

我不知道。

It is just beautiful seeing how everyone is the same because all these people, they all know all the strokes perfectly.

看到每个人都一样真是太棒了，因为所有这些人都完美地掌握了所有的笔画。

They're technically perfect in pretty much every way.

他们在技术上几乎在各个方面都是完美的。

And so it really is mental.

所以这确实是心理上的。

Kenneth Berger: For those folks, it is about working through resistance as well.

肯尼思·伯杰：对于那些人来说，这也是克服阻力的过程。

When they have a that says, "Oh, I'm behind.

当他们说：“哦，我落后了。

The other person is better.

另一个人更好。

I'm not going to be able to do this." Are they believing that or are they working through that resistance and saying, "That's just a story I have.

我无法做到这一点。”他们是否相信这一点，或者他们是否正在克服这种阻力并说：“这只是我的故事。

I actually don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to try to win."

事实上我不知道会发生什么，但我会努力赢得胜利。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you see coaching opportunities in everything even entertainment.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你在一切事物中看到教练机会，甚至是娱乐领域。

Kenneth Berger: I mean actually speaking of that, I mean, it's almost too on the nose, but there's this movie living from a couple of years ago.

肯尼思·伯杰：我的意思是，实际上说到这一点，我的意思是，这几乎太引人注目了，但这部电影是几年前的作品。

This British actor is this sort of tough, old sort of stodgy government office manager, and he gets diagnosed with cancer.

这位英国演员是一位强硬、老旧、古板的政府办公室经理，他被诊断出患有癌症。

And he has this real transformation where he thinks about, "God, I've just been sitting in an office filing papers my whole life.

当他想到“天啊，我这辈子就坐在办公室里写文件。

What do I actually want to do with the last months of my life?" And he builds this playground for children, and that's actually his legacy.

我在生命的最后几个月里到底想做什么？”他为孩子们建造了这个游乐场，这实际上是他的遗产。

Sorry, actually, spoiler alert.

抱歉，实际上，剧透警报。

Whoops, should've.

哎呀，应该的。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned tennis and you mentioned British people.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了网球，也提到了英国人。

I will actually be at Wimbledon this year in London with my dad in July and we're going to host a meetup there while I'm there just for anyone listening right now, just to give you a heads up.

事实上，我今年七月会和我父亲一起参加伦敦的温布尔登网球公开赛，我们将在那里举办一场聚会，而我在那里只是为了让现在正在听的人，只是为了给你们一个提示。

Lenny Rachitsky: How fun is that going to be?

Lenny Rachitsky：那会有多有趣？

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Kenneth Berger: Well, it's funny.

肯尼思·伯杰：嗯，这很有趣。

I used to be a big wine aficionado, and I think as with many of us, I am discovering I feel better with less alcohol in my life.

我曾经是一位葡萄酒狂热爱好者，我想和我们许多人一样，我发现生活中少喝酒我会感觉更好。

And so one of the things I've been picking up is oolong tea.

所以我一直在挑选的东西之一就是乌龙茶。

I've got a little cup of Taiwanese [foreign language 01:09:51] in front of me, and I feel like it's all the nerdery that I put into wine of regions, and varietals, and history and processing, but it's actually good for me.

我面前有一小杯台湾酒[外语01:09:51]，我觉得这就是我在葡萄酒中对地区、品种、历史和加工过程投入的所有书呆子，但它实际上对我有好处。

It's like full of antioxidants and makes me more focused and I can drink it during the day.

它就像充满了抗氧化剂，让我更加专注，我可以在白天喝它。

I've been totally going down a nerdy tea rabbit hole, and I recommend it.

我已经彻底陷入了书呆子茶兔子洞，我推荐它。

Taiwanese mountain teas especially.

尤其是台湾高山茶。

Lenny Rachitsky: I got to give me some of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我必须给我一些。

I always have tea here when I'm doing these podcasts.

当我做这些播客时，我总是在这里喝茶。

I'm a less sophisticated tea drinker.

我是一个不太成熟的茶饮者。

I just go with Earl Grey, but a really nice Earl Grey, and so I'm going to have to buy some of this.

我只选择伯爵茶，但伯爵茶非常好，所以我必须买一些。

Do you have a place in a brand you recommend most?

您最推荐的品牌中有您的一席之地吗？

Kenneth Berger: There's lots of great stores online.

Kenneth Berger：网上有很多很棒的商店。

You can check out teafromtaiwan.com.

你可以去teafromtaiwan.com 看看。

That's a good one.

这是一件好事。

Lenny Rachitsky: They're going to get a bunch of traffic.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们会获得大量流量。

They're like, "What the hell just happened?" Teafromtaiwan.com amazing.

他们就像是，“到底发生了什么？” Teafromtaiwan.com 太棒了。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find useful, share with friends or family and work around life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾、发现它有用、与朋友或家人分享并围绕生活开展工作？

Kenneth Berger: I mean, I'm pretty sure you can guess, Lenny.

肯尼思·伯杰：我的意思是，我很确定你能猜到，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wonder what it might be.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想知道它可能是什么。

I wonder what it might be.

我想知道它可能是什么。

Kenneth Berger: So this is actually part of why I started writing this book, is because my friends were probably annoyed with me telling them, "Have you asked for what you wanted?

肯尼思·伯杰：这实际上是我开始写这本书的部分原因，因为我的朋友们可能对我告诉他们“你有没有要求过你想要的东西了吗？

Ask for what you want." Because yeah, it's best advice I have is to ask for what you want.

提出你想要的东西。”因为是的，我最好的建议就是提出你想要的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: It all just comes back to that final question.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一切都回到了最后一个问题。

We've been talking a lot about asking for what you want.

我们已经讨论了很多关于询问你想要什么的问题。

Kenneth Berger, what do you want?

肯尼思·伯杰，你想要什么？

Kenneth Berger: Ooh.

肯尼思·伯杰：哦。

All right.

好吧。

Well, I think for me, Lenny, you are already an industry luminary with thousands of followers.

好吧，我认为对我来说，莱尼，你已经是拥有数千名追随者的行业名人了。

I am interested in sharing more of these ideas.

我有兴趣分享更多这些想法。

So if y'all would come follow me on LinkedIn and subscribe to my newsletter, I'm going to be exploring these ideas and sharing more of this stuff because I just am so passionate about it.

因此，如果你们愿意在 LinkedIn 上关注我并订阅我的时事通讯，我将探索这些想法并分享更多这些内容，因为我对此充满热情。

I'd love if you'd come and join me in that journey, bring questions and ideas, and I'd love to talk about this stuff because I just find it endlessly interesting.

如果你能加入我的旅程，提出问题和想法，我会很高兴，我很乐意谈论这些东西，因为我发现它无限有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: But you're working on a book along these lines at some point that will come out, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：但是你正在写一本类似的书，迟早会出版，对吧？

Kenneth Berger: That's right, that's right.

肯尼思·伯杰： 没错，没错。

I am working on it in book form, but part of what I've been doing is I realize I want to work on it in community.

我正在以书籍的形式研究它，但我一直在做的一部分是我意识到我想在社区中研究它。

Speaking of asking for what you want, I mean, for me, it's not just about my vision and my framing, but I'm a coach.

说到要求你想要什么，我的意思是，对我来说，这不仅仅是我的愿景和框架，而是我是一名教练。

I'm not just about big ideas.

我不仅仅关心伟大的想法。

I'm about making a difference for my clients.

我致力于为我的客户带来改变。

And so I realize, if I really want to make a difference with people, I need...

所以我意识到，如果我真的想为人们带来改变，我需要......

It's like a product, I need to get out in the world and test out these ideas and see what lands with people and what's effective for them and what works, and hear the stories and really get into it.

这就像一个产品，我需要走出去，测试这些想法，看看哪些想法适合人们，哪些对他们有效，哪些有效，聆听故事并真正投入其中。

So that's kind of why I've been putting myself more out there.

这就是为什么我一直更加努力地投入其中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So along those lines, two last questions.

因此，按照这些思路，还有最后两个问题。

Where can folks actually find you online and follow the stuff that you're writing and how can listeners be useful to you?

人们在哪里可以真正在网上找到您并关注您正在写的内容以及听众如何对您有用？

Kenneth Berger: So you can find me on LinkedIn.

Kenneth Berger：所以你可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

I'm Kenneth Berger, B-E-R-G-E-R.

我是肯尼思·伯杰，B-E-R-G-E-R。

So please follow me there.

所以请跟着我去那里。

Subscribe to the Ask for What You Want newsletter.

订阅“询问您想要什么”时事通讯。

And you can check out my website, kberger.com, K-B-E-R-G-E-R.

你可以查看我的网站，kberger.com，K-B-E-R-G-E-R。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kberger.com.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：Kberger.com。

Kenneth, you're amazing.

肯尼斯，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom with us.

非常感谢您与我们分享如此多的智慧。

I think we've helped a lot of people.

我想我们已经帮助了很多人。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

如果您觉得这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcasts.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。