Twitter’s ex-Head of Product on Elon, consumer products, culture, more | Kayvon Beykpour

Kayvon Beykpour: The first time I ever met Elon was over FaceTime.

Kayvon Beykpour：我第一次见到 Elon 是通过 FaceTime。

He was just like, "Do you want to just come hang out?

他只是说，“你想出去玩吗？

You can swipe left or swipe right."

您可以向左滑动或向右滑动。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You're known for at Twitter someone that turned the culture of the product team and Twitter in general from a very stagnant, nothing-is-changing product to shipping all the time.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在 Twitter 中因将产品团队和 Twitter 的文化从一个非常停滞、一成不变的产品转变为始终交付的人而闻名。

Kayvon Beykpour: We wanted to change the lack of ambition, the lack of creativity, the lack of customers feeling that the product had changed at all.

Kayvon Beykpour：我们想要改变缺乏雄心、缺乏创造力、缺乏客户感觉产品发生根本变化的情况。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here's a list of stuff that your team shipped while you were there, Super Follows, Communities, newsletters, topics, Fleets, testing reactions, edge-to-edge photos, Twitter Blue, Spaces, and obviously, live video.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是您在那里时您的团队发送的内容的列表，超级关注、社区、时事通讯、主题、舰队、测试反应、边缘到边缘的照片、Twitter Blue、Spaces，当然还有实时视频。

Kayvon Beykpour: The sacred cows are like their own roadmap.

Kayvon Beykpour：神圣的牛就像他们自己的路线图。

What are all the things that you think we're not allowed to change?

您认为我们不能改变哪些事情？

Let's start there.

让我们从这里开始吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: This was all relatively quickly.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一切都相对较快。

Kayvon Beykpour: I was like, "I might flame out completely, but Hell if I don't try."

Kayvon Beykpour：我当时想，“我可能会彻底熄火，但如果我不尝试，那就见鬼了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Kayvon Beykpour.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Kayvon Beykpour。

Kayvon was the beloved and longest-tenured head of product at Twitter and also GM of the consumer business at Twitter up until the day that it was sold to Elon Musk.

Kayvon 是 Twitter 深受爱戴、任职时间最长的产品负责人，也是 Twitter 消费者业务的总经理，直到 Twitter 被出售给埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk) 为止。

He landed at Twitter through an acquisition of his company, Periscope, which was the world's largest live-streaming platform, which ended up inspiring Instagram Live, TikTok Live, Facebook Live, and basically every other social network getting into live video.

他通过收购自己的公司 Periscope 进入 Twitter，Periscope 是全球最大的直播平台，最终启发了 Instagram Live、TikTok Live、Facebook Live 以及基本上所有其他社交网络进入视频直播领域。

He sold the company to Twitter in 2015, continued leading Periscope for a number of years, and then moved into leading product and then the entire consumer business.

他于 2015 年将公司出售给 Twitter，继续领导 Periscope 多年，然后进入主导产品领域，然后进入整个消费者业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our wide-ranging conversation, Kayvon shares what it was like getting Elon up to speed at Twitter, what it was like to be fired from Twitter, which actually happened during his pat leave.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们内容广泛的谈话中，Kayvon 分享了让埃隆了解 Twitter 的情况，以及被 Twitter 解雇的情况，这实际上是在他休假期间发生的。

He also shares all kinds of lessons and stories from transforming Twitter's internal culture from a risk-averse, stagnant, product org to one that was shipping major features regularly.

他还分享了将 Twitter 的内部文化从一个规避风险、停滞不前的产品组织转变为定期发布主要功能的组织的各种经验教训和故事。

We talk about how they used acquihires and up-and-coming hungry product leaders to lead new initiatives and break through many of their sacred cows.

我们谈论他们如何利用收购者和崭露头角的饥饿产品领导者来领导新举措并突破他们的许多障碍。

Lenny Rachitsky: We also get into jobs-to-be-done, Elon's layoffs of most of Twitter's staff after the acquisition, his lessons from building and shutting down Periscope, and also building consumer products in general, and so much more.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们还讨论了待完成的工作、埃隆在收购后解雇了 Twitter 的大部分员工、他从创建和关闭 Periscope 中获得的经验教训，以及一般消费产品的开发等等。

This episode is full of stories and lessons and a bunch of stuff that you haven't heard anywhere else.

这一集充满了故事和教训，以及一堆你在其他地方没有听过的东西。

With that, I bring you Kayvon Beykpour after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Kayvon Beykpour。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Enterpret.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterpret 为您带来。

Enterpret unifies all of your customer interactions from Gong calls to Zendesk tickets to Twitter threads to app store reviews, and makes it available for your product team.

Enterpret 统一了所有客户交互，从 Kong 呼叫到 Zendesk 票证到 Twitter 线程再到应用程序商店评论，并可供您的产品团队使用。

It's used by leading product orgs like Canva, Notion, Loom, Linear, and Descript to accurately integrate the voice of the customer into your product development process, helping you build best-in-class products.

Canva、Notion、Loom、Linear 和 Descript 等领先产品组织都使用它来将客户的声音准确地集成到您的产品开发流程中，帮助您构建一流的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: What makes Enterpret special is its ability to build customer-specific, adaptive AI models that provide the most granular and accurate categorization of all your customer feedback, and also connect customer feedback to revenue impact to help product leaders confidently prioritize things that will actually move the needle for your business.

Lenny Rachitsky：Enterpret 的独特之处在于它能够构建针对客户的自适应 AI 模型，为所有客户反馈提供最精细、最准确的分类，并将客户反馈与收入影响联系起来，帮助产品领导者自信地优先考虑那些真正能推动业务发展的事情。

If you want a custom model built for your organization so that you can automate your feedback loops and prioritize your roadmap with confidence, get in touch with the team at enterpret.com/lenny.

如果您想要为您的组织构建自定义模型，以便能够自动化反馈循环并自信地确定路线图的优先级，请通过 enterpret.com/lenny 与团队联系。

That's E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny.

那是 E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目由 OneSchema 为您带来，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。

Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file, and building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never-ending sink for your engineering and support resources.

客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据，而构建电子表格导入器会成为您的工程和支持资源的无休止的消耗。

You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, the customers keep running into issues.

您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，客户不断遇到问题。

Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.

六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.

Lenny Rachitsky：大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 是。

Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.

Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。

Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.

对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。

Customers get frustrated by useless messages like error on line 53 and never end up getting started with your product.

客户会对第 53 行错误等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。

OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.

OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。

For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.

OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。

Learn more at oneschema.co/lenny.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kayvon, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Kayvon，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Kayvon Beykpour: Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.

Kayvon Beykpour：非常感谢您邀请我，Lenny。

Great to meet you finally.

很高兴终于见到你了。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's amazing to meet you.

Lenny Rachitsky：很高兴见到你。

I think this is going to be quite a unique and interesting podcast.

我认为这将是一个非常独特且有趣的播客。

A big thank you to Scott Belsky, illustrious former podcast guest for introducing us.

非常感谢杰出的前播客嘉宾斯科特·贝尔斯基 (Scott Belsky) 向我们介绍。

When he introduced us, the one thing that he told me is that "Hopefully, Kayvon will share the story about our time getting Elon up to speed at Twitter." I would love to hear that story.

当他介绍我们时，他告诉我的一件事是“希望 Kayvon 能够分享我们让 Elon 在 Twitter 上加快步伐的故事。”我很想听听这个故事。

I bet other people would too.

我打赌其他人也会的。

Are you able to share that story?

你能分享这个故事吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: When all the drama went down with Twitter and Elon ended up buying the company and after the eight months saga of legal back and forth ended up actually taking control of the company, there was that first two-day period where it was complete chaos at Twitter with the sink and Elon spreading his tentacles trying to find out who are the people that he wants to keep and what are the projects that are interesting.

Kayvon Beykpour：当所有的戏剧性事件随着 Twitter 的发生而结束，埃隆最终收购了这家公司，经过八个月的法律来回的传奇最终最终真正控制了该公司时，在最初的两天里，Twitter 完全陷入混乱，埃隆张开触手试图找出他想保留的人是谁，以及哪些项目是有趣的。

In the midst of all that, Scott ended up getting contacted and being asked, "Who should Elon talk to?" Scott recommended that Elon chat with me.

在这一切过程中，斯科特最终被联系并被问到：“埃隆应该和谁说话？”斯科特推荐埃隆和我聊天。

Kayvon Beykpour: So, the first time I ever met Elon was over at FaceTime where Elon was just very curious to ask, "Hey, you were at Twitter for a while.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，我第一次见到 Elon 是在 FaceTime 上，当时 Elon 非常好奇地问，“嘿，你在 Twitter 上呆了一段时间。

You seem to have done some things.

你似乎做了一些事情。

What should I be digging into, and who I be talking to?" At the end of that conversation, we ended up arranging an in-person meeting where Scott and I went to Twitter HQ to actually meet Elon.

我应该深入研究什么？我应该与谁交谈？”谈话结束后，我们最终安排了一次面对面的会面，斯科特和我前往 Twitter 总部与埃隆进行了真正的会面。

I think this was day two of Elon having brought the sink in.

我想这是埃隆把水槽搬进来的第二天。

So, we had this really bizarre, wild, but really fun experience of walking into Twitter HQ, and in my case, walking back to Twitter HQ for the first time after having been fired, which was a very strange experience for me, and we walked into the building.

所以，我们走进 Twitter 总部时经历了一次非常奇怪、狂野但非常有趣的经历，就我而言，在被解雇后第一次走回 Twitter 总部，这对我来说是一次非常奇怪的经历，然后我们走进了大楼。

Kayvon Beykpour: I was scurried through the back door because I didn't want to make a scene and make it ...

Kayvon Beykpour：我被匆匆从后门跑了出去，因为我不想大吵大闹……

There was a lot of rumors around is Kayvon coming back, and I just wanted to avoid all of that.

有很多关于 Kayvon 回归的谣言，我只是想避免所有这些。

So, it was just a very weird experience of being scurried through the elevator and through the back door and go to this massive conference room, which we had on the second floor of the 110th building.

所以，穿过电梯，穿过后门，进入我们位于 110 号大楼二楼的这个巨大的会议室，真是一种非常奇怪的经历。

Kayvon Beykpour: In that massive conference room, it was me, Scott, Elon, and then at the very, very end of the room, Walter Isaacson, who by the way, I had a hard time.

Kayvon Beykpour：在那间巨大的会议室里，有我、斯科特、埃隆，然后在房间的最尽头，沃尔特·艾萨克森，顺便说一句，我度过了一段艰难的时光。

I knew I recognized.

我知道我认得。

I'd never met Walter in person, but I was like, "Is that Walter Isaacson?" But he said nothing the entire time, and we had probably a two-hour conversation talking about the past, the future of Twitter, the good, the bad, the ugly.

我从未见过沃尔特本人，但我想，“那是沃尔特·艾萨克森吗？”但他自始至终什么也没说，我们大概进行了两个小时的谈话，谈论 Twitter 的过去、未来，好的、坏的、丑陋的。

At the very end of the conversation, Walter came up and introduced himself and was like, "Hi, I'm Walter.

在谈话的最后，沃尔特走过来自我介绍说：“嗨，我是沃尔特。

Can I get your information just in case I need to ask any follow-up questions?" And I was like, "Oh, shit.

如果我需要询问任何后续问题，我可以获取您的信息吗？”我当时想，“哦，该死。

I guess that whole conversation was on the record.

我想整个谈话都被记录下来了。

I don't know."

我不知道。”

Kayvon Beykpour: So, it was a very surreal experience for a bunch of reasons, including just being weird for me since I was very conflicted about coming back to Twitter, even physically in the office.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，由于多种原因，这是一次非常超现实的经历，包括对我来说很奇怪，因为我对回到 Twitter 感到非常矛盾，即使是在办公室。

But I must say it was really fun.

但我必须说这真的很有趣。

It was fun talking to someone.

和某人交谈很有趣。

Obviously Elon, I'd never met him before, and he's one of the most successful entrepreneurs of our time.

显然，埃隆，我以前从未见过他，他是我们这个时代最成功的企业家之一。

So, that was exciting to go into that meeting.

所以，参加那次会议是令人兴奋的。

Also, I had been spending so much time dreaming about Twitter and trying to mold Twitter in a direction that I thought was compelling and working with a team of people to do that, and to meet someone who also had a similar ambition, but obviously, in different ways ...

另外，我花了很多时间梦想 Twitter，并试图将 Twitter 塑造成一个我认为引人注目的方向，并与一群人合作来做到这一点，并结识一个也有类似抱负的人，但显然是以不同的方式......

He had his own dream for Twitter ...

他对 Twitter 有自己的梦想......

but it was really bizarre and unique and surreal seeing that glimmer in someone else who was like, "Yeah, I also just bought this thing, so I can actually do whatever the Hell I want.

但看到其他人身上闪烁着这样的光芒，这真的很奇怪、独特和超现实，“是的，我也刚刚买了这个东西，所以我实际上可以做任何我想做的事情。

And by the way, here's some crazy dreams I have for doing it."

顺便说一下，我对此有一些疯狂的梦想。”

Kayvon Beykpour: It was just a really ...

Kayvon Beykpour：这真的是......

As someone who had had their own dreams for the product, witnessing that it was really unusual and cool.

作为一个对这个产品有自己梦想的人，亲眼目睹它真的很不寻常而且很酷。

I think that's probably what Scott meant when he said, "You should ask Kayvon about that," was that I think we both kind of recognized that something's about to happen here.

我想这可能就是斯科特说“你应该问凯冯这件事”时的意思，我想我们都意识到这里即将发生一些事情。

Obviously, you have this very public spectacle of someone essentially having a takeover of a public company, but all of that stuff aside, also, you could tell Elon was scheming and cooking up, "What am I going to do with this?" It was cool to see that.

显然，你会看到这样一个非常公开的景象：有人实质上收购了一家上市公司，但除了所有这些之外，你也可以看出埃隆正在策划和策划，“我该怎么办？”看到这一点很酷。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an amazing story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个了不起的故事。

I love the Walter Isaacson component of it.

我喜欢其中沃尔特·艾萨克森的部分。

Do you feel like you made a dent on his approach and way of thinking?

你觉得你对他的方法和思维方式产生了影响吗？

Obviously, he made a lot of big radical changes.

显然，他做出了很多重大的根本性改变。

Do you feel like you made a dent in his view of where Twitter should go?

你觉得你是否削弱了他对 Twitter 发展方向的看法？

Kayvon Beykpour: I don't know.

Kayvon Beykpour：我不知道。

I certainly don't think I've made any impression on how he should run the company.

我当然认为我对他应该如何管理公司没有留下任何印象。

I think that's Elon's going to Elon in his way, and I think he certainly has had some radical moves in terms of how he's running the company, the decisions he made, how many people he let go, how the company is structured, the culture, and all that stuff is like ...

我认为埃隆将以他的方式走向埃隆，我认为他在公司运营方式、做出的决定、解雇了多少人、公司的结构、文化以及所有这些方面肯定采取了一些激进的举措……

We didn't even talk about that stuff.

我们甚至没有谈论那些事情。

Kayvon Beykpour: I think what we spent time talking about is I shared my perspective with him of people I thought who were exceptional, who were at the company, and if I was in his shoes, who I would spend time with and embrace.

Kayvon Beykpour：我想我们花时间讨论的是我与他分享了我对我认为杰出的人、公司里的人的看法，以及如果我处于他的位置，我会花时间和他们在一起并拥抱他们。

Most of the people that I mentioned are still there, which is awesome, and they seem to be A, empowered, which is great, and B, having fun, which is awesome.

我提到的大多数人都还在那里，这太棒了，他们似乎是 A，有能力，这很棒，B，有乐趣，这太棒了。

So, hopefully, that stuff is useful.

所以，希望这些东西有用。

Kayvon Beykpour: We spent a bunch of time brainstorming products, and I had my set of projects that I was very passionate about because we'd given birth to them.

Kayvon Beykpour：我们花了很多时间集思广益产品，我有一套我非常热衷的项目，因为它们是我们诞生的。

I think a bunch of those projects, it seems like Twitter's still investing in and putting a lot of energy behind like Community Notes, which at the time was called Birdwatch.

我认为 Twitter 似乎仍在投资并投入大量精力支持这些项目，例如 Community Notes，当时称为 Birdwatch。

But I always felt really bullish on that being the future of essentially how content is moderated on Twitter, just because it was very clear that the way we were handling content moderation among many other flaws just wasn't scalable.

但我一直非常看好 Twitter 上内容审核的未来，因为很明显，我们处理内容审核的方式存在许多其他缺陷，而且无法扩展。

Kayvon Beykpour: Spaces and Communities and the Creator Program of helping people make money on the platform, those are projects that we started over the year-ish prior to Elon taking over.

Kayvon Beykpour：空间和社区以及帮助人们在平台上赚钱的创作者计划，这些是我们在埃隆接任之前一年左右启动的项目。

My hope, having left the company and having had a new leader come in, was that those things would be given more oxygen.

离开公司并有新领导上任后，我希望这些事情能够得到更多的氧气。

It's been awesome to see that those have been continuing to grow and be molded in different directions.

看到这些不断成长并朝不同方向塑造真是太棒了。

Yeah, I think in that sense, I hope that our brainstorm was useful, but for all I know he doesn't even remember the conversation.

是的，我认为从这个意义上说，我希望我们的头脑风暴是有用的，但据我所知，他甚至不记得这次谈话。

Lenny Rachitsky: I freaking love Community Notes.

Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢社区笔记。

It's such an amazing product.

这是一个非常了不起的产品。

Let me ask two more dramatic-oriented Elon Twitter questions just to get these out of the way.

让我在 Twitter 上问两个更具戏剧性的问题，以解决这些问题。

The first is you said you were fired.

第一个是你说你被解雇了。

I don't know if you've shared that publicly.

不知道你有没有公开分享过。

People always wondered, I think, what happened.

我想，人们总是想知道发生了什么。

I know you tweeted during your pat leave, "I'm leaving Twitter," and no one really knows the story as far as I know.

我知道你在休假期间发了一条推文，“我要离开 Twitter”，据我所知，没有人真正了解这个故事。

What actually went on there?

那里究竟发生了什么？

Kayvon Beykpour: It was weird, to say the least.

Kayvon Beykpour：至少可以说，这很奇怪。

Honestly, it took me some time to come to peace with it because it was frustrating and surprising.

老实说，我花了一些时间才平静下来，因为这既令人沮丧又令人惊讶。

I guess the story of what happened starts with Jack resigning.

我猜发生的故事是从杰克辞职开始的。

Jack resigned in ...

杰克于...辞职

It was like November of 2021 at the end of the year.

好像是2021年11月的年底。

The board chose Parag to be the CEO of the company, and I've had a long relationship with Parag.

董事会选择 Parag 担任公司首席执行官，我与 Parag 有着长期的合作关系。

I respect him, but I had mixed feelings about that.

我尊重他，但对此我有复杂的感觉。

Kayvon Beykpour: To his credit, Parag very quickly addressed one of the biggest things that I was really frustrated about in the last three years essentially of my time at Twitter.

Kayvon Beykpour：值得赞扬的是，Parag 很快就解决了我在 Twitter 的过去三年中真正感到沮丧的最大问题之一。

One of my biggest points of feedback and points of consternation was the structure of the company in that we had a functional organizational model, meaning we had a head of consumer product, me, we had a head of revenue product, Bruce, we had a head of engineering, we had a head of design, we had head research.

我最大的反馈点和惊愕点之一是公司的结构，因为我们有一个职能组织模型，这意味着我们有一个消费产品主管，我，我们有一个收入产品主管，布鲁斯，我们有一个工程主管，我们有一个设计主管，我们有一个研究主管。

It was a functionally run organization.

这是一个按职能运作的组织。

Kayvon Beykpour: And the combination of that model and the type of leader that Jack was wasn't working in my view.

Kayvon Beykpour：在我看来，这种模式与杰克的领导者类型的结合并不奏效。

I think if you're going to have a functional organization, you need to have a GM or a CEO who's extremely leaned-in to tiebreak and resolve conflict and make sure the team is moving quickly.

我认为，如果你要拥有一个功能齐全的组织，你需要有一位总经理或首席执行官，他们非常愿意参与决胜局和解决冲突，并确保团队快速行动。

And Jack, for all of his amazing qualities, just wasn't operating that way, and so you had a group of highly opinionated people that often disagreed and would create either the need for consensus or deadlock.

而杰克，尽管他拥有令人惊叹的品质，但他并没有以这种方式行事，所以你有一群固执己见的人，他们经常意见不合，要么需要达成共识，要么造成僵局。

That just was driving a lot of people crazy, including me, and I think it really held us back from living up to Twitter's potential.

这让很多人抓狂，包括我，我认为这确实阻碍了我们发挥 Twitter 的潜力。

Kayvon Beykpour: Anyway, all of that was super frustrating for me, and the combination of that and a dramatic change in leadership with Jack leaving and Parag coming in, I wasn't feeling too stoked.

Kayvon Beykpour：无论如何，所有这一切对我来说都非常令人沮丧，再加上杰克离开和帕拉格上任导致领导层发生巨大变化，我并没有感到太兴奋。

Parag to his credit, when he became CEO, quickly changed that and shifted the company to be a GM structure.

值得赞扬的是，当帕拉格成为首席执行官后，他迅速改变了这一状况，并将公司转变为通用汽车结构。

And he promoted me to being the GM of consumers.

他还提拔我担任消费者总经理。

So, for the prior three-ish years, having been responsible for growing Twitter's consumer product, I was only responsible for the product management team.

因此，在过去三年左右的时间里，我负责发展 Twitter 的消费产品，只负责产品管理团队。

I didn't have engineering or design, and that honestly was difficult.

我没有工程或设计专业，老实说这很困难。

It's very difficult to change culture with one hand tied behind your back.

将一只手绑在背后很难改变文化。

Kayvon Beykpour: Still no regrets.

Kayvon Beykpour：仍然不后悔。

Had a lot of fun.

玩得很开心。

I think we had some impact, but it was frustrating.

我认为我们产生了一些影响，但令人沮丧。

So, Parag changed that.

所以，帕拉格改变了这一点。

The irony of this, by the way, is he was one of the biggest proponents of the functional structure.

顺便说一句，具有讽刺意味的是，他是职能结构的最大支持者之一。

When he became a CEO, he changed the structure, promoted me to be the GM of consumer, and I was, at that point, one month ...

当他成为首席执行官时，他改变了结构，提拔我担任消费者总经理，当时我一个月......

This is one month before I went on pat leave because my daughter was due.

这是我因女儿预产期而请假的一个月前的事。

Kayvon Beykpour: So, I went into my paternity leave being like, "All right, I'm going to give this a shot.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，我在休陪产假时就说，“好吧，我要尝试一下。

We'll see.

我们拭目以待。

We'll see how this goes," as Parag addressed the biggest frustration that I had with the company and how it was being run.

我们会看看事情会如何发展，”帕拉格谈到了我对公司及其运营方式最大的挫败感。

So, I had some trepidations but went into my pat leave feeling optimistic.

所以，我有一些惶恐，但在我离开时感到乐观。

Mind you, this was all before Elon was even part of the picture.

请注意，这一切都是在埃隆出现之前发生的。

He had not become a board member.

他没有成为董事会成员。

There was no news about him having beef with the executive team or for that matter, trying to buy the company.

没有关于他与高管团队发生争执或试图收购该公司的消息。

Kayvon Beykpour: So, I went on pat leave maybe a week and a half before our daughter's due date.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，我在女儿预产期前大约一个半星期休了产假。

Three weeks goes by.

三个星期过去了。

In that three weeks, Elon joins the board, leaves the board, makes an offer, has a short dramatic feud about whether that goes through.

在那三周内，埃隆加入董事会，离开董事会，提出要约，并就是否成功进行了短暂的戏剧性争执。

And also during that time, my daughter was born.

也是在那段时间，我的女儿出生了。

Some drama at the hospital for us, but a week afterwards, we come home.

我们在医院里发生了一些戏剧性的事情，但一周后，我们就回家了。

Mom's healthy.

妈妈身体健康。

Daughter's healthy.

女儿身体健康。

Kayvon Beykpour: The day after we get home from the hospital, Parag called me and said that he was letting me go and that he was taking the team in a different direction.

Kayvon Beykpour：我们从医院回家后的第二天，帕拉格打电话给我，说他让我走了，并且他正在带领球队走向不同的方向。

That night, Twitter signed a term sheet with Elon to sell the company.

那天晚上，推特与埃隆签署了一份出售公司的条款清单。

So, a lot happened in a very short period of time, and the reason that Parag gave is exactly what I shared publicly, which was that he wanted to take the team in a different direction.

所以，在很短的时间内发生了很多事情，Parag 给出的原因正是我公开分享的，那就是他想带领团队走向不同的方向。

The only other thing he said is that given that new direction, he thinks that the things that I'm good at, Twitter doesn't need anymore.

他唯一说的另一件事是，鉴于新的方向，他认为 Twitter 不再需要我擅长的事情了。

And the things that Twitter needs are not particularly in my skill set or in my interest.

Twitter 需要的东西并不特别符合我的技能或兴趣。

Kayvon Beykpour: He wasn't particularly expressive about what that direction was, but that was the reason he gave me.

Kayvon Beykpour：他并没有具体表达这个方向是什么，但这就是他给我的原因。

That was a huge bummer for me for a bunch of reasons.

由于多种原因，这对我来说是一个巨大的遗憾。

One, I love the company.

一、我热爱这家公司。

I love the product, and also it just sucks to leave not on your own terms.

我喜欢这个产品，但如果不按照自己的意愿离开，那就太糟糕了。

And two, I was just confused.

第二，我只是很困惑。

The timing was very frustrating and confusing for me, not least of which because I had just come home from the hospital while on paternity leave.

这个时机对我来说非常令人沮丧和困惑，尤其是因为我刚从医院休陪产假回家。

But also because at that time, especially the fact that Elon was buying the company was ...

但也因为当时，尤其是埃隆收购该公司的事实......

Kayvon Beykpour: Well, I was conflicted, honestly.

Kayvon Beykpour：嗯，说实话，我很矛盾。

I was very excited because Elon is someone that I looked up to immensely, and you just look at the things that he's achieved in the world and you can't help but be inspired by that.

我非常兴奋，因为埃隆是我非常尊敬的人，你只要看看他在世界上取得的成就，你就会情不自禁地受到启发。

And two, Twitter for all of, I think, the impact and progress that we had made, had a lot of challenges associated with its governance and the fact that it was constantly vulnerable as a public company.

第二，我认为 Twitter 就我们所取得的影响和进步而言，面临着与其治理相关的许多挑战，以及它作为一家上市公司始终脆弱的事实。

So, there's just always this drama associated with Twitter as a public company, even a private company before that, that made it extremely hard as a builder to get shit done and have the product live up to its potential.

因此，作为一家上市公司，即使是之前的私营公司，Twitter 总是会出现这样的戏剧性事件，这使得作为一个开发者很难完成任务并让产品发挥其潜力。

Kayvon Beykpour: One of the benefits of this particular takeover was that Elon offered a path towards solving all of that.

Kayvon Beykpour：这次收购的好处之一是 Elon 提供了解决所有这些问题的途径。

It was like, "Oh, cool, now you've got one owner who happens to be, by the way, extremely opinionated about the product and a voracious consumer and creator of the product." I think there was an incredible opportunity in that that now you have this organization and this product and this incredible ecosystem that can be devoid of all the political bullshit associated with being a public company.

就像是，“哦，太酷了，现在你有了一位所有者，顺便说一句，他恰好对产品非常有意见，并且是产品的贪婪消费者和创造者。”我认为这是一个令人难以置信的机会，因为现在你拥有这个组织、这个产品和这个令人难以置信的生态系统，可以摆脱与上市公司相关的所有政治废话。

Now, it has this conduit to just living up to its potential.

现在，它有了这个渠道来发挥其潜力。

Kayvon Beykpour: So, it was a bummer to be removed from that, I suppose, without having any agency myself.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，我想，在我自己没有任何代理的情况下，从这个职位上被移除是一件令人遗憾的事情。

That was very a long-winded answer to your question, but that's what happened towards the end there.

这是对你问题的一个冗长的回答，但这就是最后发生的事情。

Like I said at the beginning, it took me a while to come to terms with it and to be at peace with it.

就像我一开始说的那样，我花了一段时间才接受它并平静下来。

I did eventually.

我最终做到了。

Listen, there's a huge silver lining of I spent the first year of my daughter's life with her and my family.

听着，我和女儿以及我的家人一起度过了女儿生命的第一年，这给我带来了巨大的一线希望。

My wife Sarah had left Twitter eight months prior to me leaving, and so when's the next time we could all be together and have time and space to just enjoy each other and our new family, and frankly, to avoid a lot of the drama that ended up ensuing that not a lot of people could have predicted?

我的妻子莎拉在我离开前八个月就离开了推特，所以下次我们什么时候才能聚在一起，有时间和空间享受彼此和我们的新家庭，坦率地说，避免发生很多人无法预料到的戏剧性事件？

The deal was on.

交易已经完成。

The deal was off.

交易失败了。

It is just a whole lot of drama that I got to miss, which is the silver lining.

这只是我错过的一大堆戏剧，这是一线希望。

Kayvon Beykpour: Then it was confusing there for a bit because when Elon did end up buying the company, in that conversation that I had with him, it was definitely ...

Kayvon Beykpour：然后有点令人困惑，因为当埃隆最终购买了这家公司时，在我与他的谈话中，这绝对是......

I was conflicted about do I want to maybe spend some time working on this still?

我很矛盾，我是否还想花一些时间来做这件事？

Elon was very cool about ...

埃隆非常酷……

He actually used this phrase at the end of our conversation, which I still find hilarious.

他实际上在我们谈话的最后使用了这句话，我仍然觉得这很搞笑。

He was just like, "Do you want to just come?

他只是说：“你想来吗？

You seem like you care about the product, and you don't have dumb ideas.

你看起来很关心产品，而且没有愚蠢的想法。

Do you want to come hang out?" And I was like, "What would my job be?" And he was like, "Don't know, just hang out, and you can swipe left or swipe right." He used the swipe right, swipe left Tinder metaphor, and I thought that was hilarious coming from him.

你想过来玩吗？”我当时想，“我的工作是什么？”他说，“不知道，只是闲逛，你可以向左滑动或向右滑动。”他用了向右滑动、向左滑动的 Tinder 比喻，我觉得他说的这句话很搞笑。

Lenny Rachitsky: For ideas that come up just like, "Here, I have this idea ?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于突然出现的想法，“在这里，我有这个想法？

Kayvon Beykpour: No, like swipe right on whether you want to be here or swipe ...

Kayvon Beykpour：不，就像向右滑动您是否想在这里或滑动......

He's like, "We don't have to make this a thing.

他说：“我们不必把这件事变成一件事。

Just do you want to hang out and work on the product with us?"

只是你想和我们一起出去玩并开发产品吗？”

Kayvon Beykpour: So, I ended up deciding that actually, I'm just ready.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，我最终决定实际上我已经准备好了。

I'm ready to move on.

我准备好继续前进了。

I spent enough time at this company, at this product trying to shape it into something that I was passionate about.

我在这家公司花了足够的时间，在这个产品上试图将其塑造成我所热衷的东西。

I think it's someone else's turn, and especially Elon.

我认为轮到别人了，尤其是埃隆。

If you buy it's your turn.

如果你买了，就轮到你了。

You can do whatever you want with it.

你可以用它做任何你想做的事。

Kayvon Beykpour: So, that was conflicting for a bit, but I would say towards the end of the year, it was pretty clear in my mind that I was ready to move on and start thinking about other problems.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，这有点矛盾，但我想说，到今年年底，我很清楚我已经准备好继续前进并开始思考其他问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I think about is there's always this tension being a PM at a company with a very strong-minded, product-oriented founder, and I feel like you would've been in the epitome worst possible situation there, where you're a product leader between Elon and the rest of org.

Lenny Rachitsky：我的想法是，在一家拥有非常坚强、以产品为导向的创始人的公司担任产品经理，总是会存在这种紧张感，我觉得你可能会处于最糟糕的情况，你是埃隆和组织其他成员之间的产品领导者。

So, I think it probably would not have worked out.

所以，我认为这可能不会成功。

Kayvon Beykpour: I'm not sure I would've been able to articulate it as succinctly as you did just now, but I think that is the feeling that I had that it's not my place anymore.

Kayvon Beykpour：我不确定我能否像你刚才那样简洁地表达出来，但我认为这就是我的感觉，这不再是我的地方了。

I don't have a canvas to try and exert my dreams on this place.

我没有画布可以在这个地方尝试和发挥我的梦想。

I think Elon took that mantle, and I'm excited to see what he going to do with it is the feeling I had.

我认为埃隆继承了这个衣钵，我很高兴看到他将用我的感觉来做些什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

You've touched on this.

你已经触及这一点了。

You're known for at Twitter someone that turned the culture of the product team and Twitter in general from a very stagnant, nothing-is-changing product to shipping all the time, all kinds of stuff.

你在 Twitter 中因将产品团队和 Twitter 的文化从一个非常停滞、一成不变的产品转变为一直在发布各种东西的人而闻名。

So, here's a list of stuff that I've gathered your team shipped while you were there.

所以，这是我收集的您的团队在您在那里期间运送的物品清单。

Twitter Blue, which is I think called Premium now, Spaces, Super Follows, Communities, newsletters, topics, fleets, being able to see Instagram photos in line, testing reactions, edge-to-edge photos, tons of UX improvements, and obviously, live video.

Twitter Blue，我认为现在被称为高级版，空间，超级关注，社区，时事通讯，主题，队列，能够在线查看 Instagram 照片，测试反应，边缘到边缘的照片，大量的用户体验改进，显然还有实时视频。

What did you learn about how to change a product culture from a company that's very risk-averse and essentially just not shipping a lot to taking big, bold bets and becoming a lot more open to new stuff?

对于如何将产品文化从一家非常规避风险、基本上不大量发货的公司转变为大胆大胆的赌注并对新事物更加开放的公司，您学到了什么？

Kayvon Beykpour: Trying to drive culture change is both one of the most challenging things and rewarding things.

Kayvon Beykpour：尝试推动文化变革既是最具挑战性的事情之一，也是最有价值的事情之一。

For the first year of my role ...

在我担任这个角色的第一年......

There was a chapter of my time at Twitter, maybe just to backup, that was just leading Periscope.

我在 Twitter 的一段时光，也许只是为了备份，那是领导 Periscope 的。

In that first chapter of maybe two years, I was not really involved with Twitter stuff all that much.

在大约两年的第一章中，我并没有真正参与 Twitter 的事情。

That started to change when we really tried integrating Periscope with Twitter, but chapter two of my time at Twitter was when I became the head of product.

当我们真正尝试将 Periscope 与 Twitter 集成时，情况开始发生变化，但我在 Twitter 的第二章是当我成为产品主管时。

That first year of being the head of product was one of the most difficult of my career not because the work was difficult, but because it was so politically and bureaucratically exhausting to try and change culture in a way that just there wasn't alignment around.

担任产品负责人的第一年是我职业生涯中最困难的一年，不是因为工作很困难，而是因为尝试以一种不协调的方式改变文化在政治和官僚主义上令人筋疲力尽。

Kayvon Beykpour: It comes back to the point I was making earlier around the organization of the company was functional, and so it is one thing for me to have some ideas and a plan and a strategy that I felt compelling.

Kayvon Beykpour：这又回到了我之前围绕公司组织的功能所提出的观点，因此对我来说，有一些我觉得引人注目的想法、计划和战略是一回事。

But when you have to essentially drive consensus amongst your peers across the other functions, that's a different game.

但是，当您必须在其他职能部门的同事之间本质上达成共识时，那就是另一回事了。

That's not execution.

那不是执行。

That's politics and consensus building.

这就是政治和建立共识。

I both can't stand that stuff, but I think ...

我都无法忍受这些东西，但我想...

This is going to sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but good enough at it and I have enough patience at it that I invested the time and the energy.

这听起来像是我在自吹自擂，但我已经足够好了，而且我有足够的耐心，我投入了时间和精力。

I think a less patient person wouldn't have bothered and would've thrown their hands up.

我认为一个不太有耐心的人不会打扰并且会举手。

Kayvon Beykpour: I think honestly, a lot of it just comes down to I had practice.

Kayvon Beykpour：老实说，我认为这很大程度上取决于我的练习。

At my first company that I started in college with one of my best friends, Joe, who I ended up co-founding Periscope with, we got acquired by a big, public, ad tech company called Blackboard, and we were 19 at the time.

我在大学时与我最好的朋友 Joe 一起创立了第一家公司，后来我与 Joe 共同创立了 Periscope，我们被一家名为 Blackboard 的大型上市广告技术公司收购，当时我们 19 岁。

We got thrown into a public ...

我们被扔进了公共场所......

I was a senior executive at a public company that was not your quintessential tech company.

我是一家上市公司的高级管理人员，但那家公司并不是典型的科技公司。

It was even more difficult to get things done.

事情办起来就更困难了。

So, through the four years I spent there, I learned a lot about how to navigate that type of environment.

因此，通过我在那里度过的四年，我学到了很多关于如何驾驭这种环境的知识。

Kayvon Beykpour: It all came coming back when I was given the product role at Twitter.

Kayvon Beykpour：当我在 Twitter 担任产品角色时，这一切都回来了。

That first year of changing culture was like-

改变文化的第一年就像——

Kayvon Beykpour: ...

凯冯·贝克普尔：……

product role at Twitter.

Twitter 的产品角色。

That first year of changing culture was like walking through mud, and it was really difficult.

改变文化的第一年就像在泥泞中行走一样，非常困难。

But I think when we started building that alignment and building excitement that like, oh, actually maybe we should be taking some bigger swings, and when we started seeing through the execution against some of those plans, I think it ended up, it got easier and easier.

但我认为，当我们开始建立这种一致性并建立兴奋感时，哦，实际上也许我们应该采取一些更大的举措，当我们开始了解其中一些计划的执行情况时，我认为它最终结束了，它变得越来越容易。

It becomes addicting.

它会让人上瘾。

I think people end up feeling like, oh wow, maybe these sacred cows we had didn't need to be so sacred.

我认为人们最终会感觉，哦，哇，也许我们拥有的这些神圣的牛不需要那么神圣。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so I think after that first year, it became a lot more fun.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以我认为第一年后，它变得更有趣了。

It was still difficult, but it felt like we were all swimming in the same direction a lot more.

这仍然很困难，但感觉我们都在同一个方向游泳。

But I think my takeaway there is you can't change culture without having alignment from the top.

但我认为我的结论是，如果没有高层的协调，你就无法改变文化。

It's difficult to change culture when you have a pocket of a company trying to advocate for change.

当公司拥有大量资金试图倡导变革时，改变文化就很困难。

Kayvon Beykpour: So I think we got there in the end.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以我认为我们最终做到了。

We didn't move as much urgency as I think we drove.

我们的行动并不像我认为的那样紧迫。

We were not fast enough, we were not bold enough.

我们不够快，我们不够大胆。

I was consistently dissatisfied with what I was achieving and what our team was achieving.

我一直对自己和我们团队所取得的成就不满意。

But I think we did make a change.

但我认为我们确实做出了改变。

Twitter was an organization that had a lot of sacred cows and became very in its ways.

Twitter 是一个拥有很多神圣的组织，并且变得非常有自己的方式。

Literally the first two years I was at the company, the stated product strategy for Twitter was refine the core.

从字面上看，我在公司的头两年，Twitter 规定的产品战略是完善核心。

It was like, we're not making any big bets here, team.

就像，我们不会在这里下任何大赌注，团队。

Our goal is to keep turning the knobs that are working.

我们的目标是不断转动有效的旋钮。

Kayvon Beykpour: And listen, as much as I was kind of throwing stones from the sidelines through that period when I was in Periscope land in our separate office a few blocks away from the mothership, that focus actually did help the company for some period.

Kayvon Beykpour：听着，当我在离母舰几个街区远的独立办公室的 Periscope 土地上时，尽管我在场外扔石头，但这种专注确实在一段时间内对公司有所帮助。

The reason why Twitter went from stagnant to declining DAU growth to growing DAU again is because they refined the core.

Twitter之所以从停滞、下降的DAU增长，到再次增长，就是因为他们把核心炼化了。

This is when they went from the reverse chronological timeline to the ranked timeline, and the year after that was a lot of knob turning.

这是他们从逆时间线转向排名时间线的时候，之后的一年发生了很多变化。

It was like, how do we make these recommendations better?

就像，我们如何使这些建议变得更好？

How do we make our push notifications more relevant?

我们如何使我们的推送通知更具相关性？

Kayvon Beykpour: Now, that is not an inspiring product strategy.

Kayvon Beykpour：现在，这并不是一个鼓舞人心的产品策略。

That does not result in the product feeling materially different or adding new capabilities, but it did return the company to user growth.

这不会导致产品感觉有实质性不同或增加新功能，但它确实使公司恢复了用户增长。

And I think that the fact that it did actually calcified the organization's reticence to take any risky bets even more.

我认为，事实确实使该组织更加不愿进行任何冒险的赌注。

So it was a very interesting predicament because when I got into the role, the goal wasn't to change that progress.

所以这是一个非常有趣的困境，因为当我进入这个角色时，目标不是改变这一进展。

We wanted to continue reaping the benefits of refining the things about the product that were working really well.

我们希望继续从改进产品中运行良好的方面中获益。

What we wanted to change was a lack of ambition, the lack of creativity, the lack of customers feeling that the product was changed at all.

我们想要改变的是缺乏雄心、缺乏创造力、缺乏客户感觉产品发生了根本改变。

Kayvon Beykpour: Because you would hear people, I mean, one of the beautiful things about working on Twitter as a product is that you have literally customers being injected into your veins.

Kayvon Beykpour：因为你会听到人们的声音，我的意思是，使用 Twitter 作为产品的美妙之处在于，你的血管里确实注入了客户。

Every single day, whatever you change about a product or whatever you don't change, they're telling you what they love and what they hate.

每一天，无论你对产品做出什么改变或不改变什么，他们都会告诉你他们喜欢什么和讨厌什么。

And it is both exhausting and exhilarating.

这既令人疲惫又令人兴奋。

It is one of the most ridiculous luxuries of product development, is working on a product that many people use and therefore you get that much feedback around.

这是产品开发中最荒谬的奢侈之一，正在开发一个很多人使用的产品，因此你会得到很多反馈。

Kayvon Beykpour: And it was a very common thing for us to hear people say, "What are you all doing over there?

Kayvon Beykpour：我们经常听到人们说：“你们都在那里做什么？

The product hasn't changed in eight years." And that was horrible to hear, and I felt it too, as a critic on the sidelines, as a user who wasn't an employee who eventually became an employee, I had the same feedback.

产品已经八年没有改变了。”这听起来很可怕，我也有这样的感觉，作为一名旁观者，作为一个不是员工但最终成为员工的用户，我也得到了同样的反馈。

And so that was my mission.

这就是我的使命。

I was like, I am somehow ridiculously in this fortunate position that I've been entrusted some responsibility here.

我当时想，我不知何故可笑地处于这个幸运的位置，我在这里被赋予了一些责任。

I might flame out completely, but hell if I don't try.

我可能会彻底熄火，但如果我不尝试就见鬼了。

And so that was both fun and exhausting, like I said.

正如我所说，这既有趣又令人筋疲力尽。

Kayvon Beykpour: But it was as simple as starting with we are voracious users of the product ourselves, and if we aren't, by the way, that's its own problem.

Kayvon Beykpour：但这很简单，因为我们自己就是该产品的贪婪用户，如果我们不是，顺便说一句，那就是它自己的问题。

I think that in order to build something wonderful, you have to be a customer of the product.

我认为，为了创造出精彩的东西，你必须成为产品的客户。

And sure, I'm sure you could point to businesses and products where that's not the case, and I'm sure there's a flaw in that philosophy somewhere, but I've always believed that one of the best ways to build products is to be a customer yourself and to find your own pain points and to build a product that you want to use.

当然，我确信你可以指出并非如此的企业和产品，而且我确信这种理念在某个地方存在缺陷，但我一直相信构建产品的最佳方法之一就是自己成为客户，找到自己的痛点并构建你想要使用的产品。

And so that's actually not that hard to do if you're a user of Twitter and you can think critically.

因此，如果您是 Twitter 用户并且可以进行批判性思考，那么这实际上并不难做到。

It was ripe with opportunity.

机会已经成熟。

And so it was actually really fun and amazing to be able to craft a plan that started to take a swing at some of these things.

因此，能够制定一个开始在其中一些事情上采取行动的计划实际上非常有趣和令人惊奇。

Kayvon Beykpour: And the other thing I'll add to this is that there were so many sacred cows at Twitter that the sacred cows are their own roadmap.

Kayvon Beykpour：我要补充的另一件事是，Twitter 上有很多神圣的牛，这些神圣的牛就是他们自己的路线图。

It's like a built-in free roadmap of like, all right, what are all the things that you think we're not allowed to change?

这就像一个内置的免费路线图，好吧，您认为我们不允许更改哪些事情？

Let's start there.

让我们从这里开始吧。

Everything from moving from reverse chron to a ranked feed, that was a sacred cow.

从反向计时到排名提要，一切都是一头神圣的牛。

Text and 140 characters, that's a sacred cow.

文本和 140 个字符，那是一头神圣的牛。

Not letting anyone control any tweets that they see on the platform.

不允许任何人控制他们在平台上看到的任何推文。

The notion of Lenny owning his reply space was anathema at Twitter.

莱尼拥有他的回复空间的想法在推特上是令人厌恶的。

Kayvon Beykpour: It's just like if a tweet gets, if you get an at mention and you don't like it or it's abusive, we're not touching that.

Kayvon Beykpour：就像一条推文被提及，如果你不喜欢它或者它是辱骂性的，我们不会碰它。

We can't annotate tweets with , all that stuff, those are all sacred cows.

我们不能用 来注释推文，所有这些东西都是神圣的。

And the process of starting to address those one by one reveals a lot of the cultural hesitations that existed.

开始一一解决这些问题的过程揭示了许多存在的文化犹豫。

Kayvon Beykpour: So yeah, I'll never forget one of the first features, and this is such a tiny feature that we worked on after I started the role, we were building this feature called hide replies.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以，是的，我永远不会忘记第一个功能，这是我开始这个角色后我们开发的一个很小的功能，我们正在构建这个称为隐藏回复的功能。

It still exists in the product today.

今天它仍然存在于产品中。

If someone replies to one of your tweets, in the tweet details area as a reply to one of your conversations, before you had no ability, the only way you could address unwanted content was reporting it.

如果有人在推文详细信息区域回复您的一条推文作为对您的一次对话的回复，那么在您没有能力之前，解决不需要的内容的唯一方法就是报告它。

So that was like Twitter acting as policemen and policewoman, completely unscalable and challenging, especially in the context of someone replying to one of your tweets.

所以这就像 Twitter 扮演男女警察一样，完全不可扩展且具有挑战性，尤其是在有人回复你的一条推文的情况下。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so we wanted to add a feature that let you hide a reply to one of your tweets, and it's not impacting what people say.

Kayvon Beykpour：因此我们想添加一项功能，让您可以隐藏对一条推文的回复，并且不会影响人们的言论。

It's not impacting free speech in the sense of you can still broadcast whatever you want, but if you're going to come into my reply space and say some shit that I don't want to see in my feed, I should be able to hide that.

它不会影响言论自由，因为你仍然可以广播任何你想要的内容，但如果你要进入我的回复空间并说一些我不想在我的提要中看到的废话，我应该能够隐藏它。

Tweet what you want, but don't at mention.

在推特上发布你想要的内容，但不要提及。

You can't scream in my face basically.

基本上你不能当着我的面尖叫。

Kayvon Beykpour: And I remember we had a PM on our team who was leading this feature who a few weeks into this project mentioned to me that she had had a conversation with someone on the engineering team that told them, "Don't work on this feature.

Kayvon Beykpour：我记得我们团队中有一位 PM 负责领导这个功能，在这个项目开始几周后，她向我提到她与工程团队的某个人进行了交谈，告诉他们，“不要开发这个功能。

This is bad for your career.

这对你的职业生涯不利。

This is not going to launch, and you don't want to work on this.

这不会启动，你也不想做这件事。

You don't want to be seen as having worked on this." Because it was so kind of anathema to we can't let people hide replies to their tweets.

你不想被视为曾参与过这件事。”因为我们不能让人们隐藏对其推文的回复，这是一种令人厌恶的行为。

And I just remember hearing that and my blood was boiling.

我只记得听到这句话，我的血液沸腾了。

That is the most, it was such an interesting representation of the culture, not just hesitation to try new things, which by the way, that product might've failed.

这是最重要的，它是文化的一种有趣的表现，而不仅仅是犹豫尝试新事物，顺便说一句，该产品可能会失败。

And that's fine, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

这很好，但这并不意味着您不应该尝试。

Kayvon Beykpour: But to go so far as to dissuade someone else who was excited about experimenting with a hypothesis to see if it could help customers on the platform and telling them, "Don't work on this.

Kayvon Beykpour：但是，甚至劝阻那些热衷于尝试一个假设，看看它是否可以帮助平台上的客户的其他人，并告诉他们，“不要做这个。

It's bad for your career." As a microcosm for some of the cultural challenge we had around trying big, bold bets, which by the way, this wasn't even a big, bold bet.

这对你的职业生涯不利。”作为我们在尝试大而大胆的赌注时遇到的一些文化挑战的缩影，顺便说一句，这甚至不是一个大而大胆的赌注。

It was such an innocuous thing to try.

尝试是一件无害的事情。

But there was a lot of that and it made it very difficult without some sheer force of will and also just a lot of effort.

但有很多这样的事情，如果没有纯粹的意志力和大量的努力，这就变得非常困难。

So there was a lot of that.

所以有很多这样的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kayvon, there's fractals of stories that I could infinitely follow.

Lenny Rachitsky：Kayvon，我可以无限地追随故事的分形。

There's so much interesting stuff here.

这里有很多有趣的东西。

One that just stands out is this idea of the sacred cows become your future roadmap.

最引人注目的一个想法是，“神圣的牛”将成为你未来的路线图。

It's like flipping it from here's the thing that we're all afraid of.

就像从这里翻转它是我们都害怕的事情。

No, this is not what we should be doing.

不，这不是我们应该做的。

I think that's really interesting and could be a lesson to people.

我认为这真的很有趣，可以给人们上一课。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other is just, I love this point you made about the growth was most accelerant when you're just focusing on the core, that's what actually ...

Lenny Rachitsky：另一个是，我喜欢你所说的这一点，即当你只专注于核心时，增长是最加速的，这实际上是......

Like optimize, people bash on optimizing the existing experience and just micro-optimizing, improving, versus trying to take all these big, bold bets and experiments.

就像优化一样，人们强调优化现有体验，只是进行微观优化、改进，而不是尝试进行所有这些大而大胆的赌注和实验。

Obviously, that's also valuable.

显然，这也是有价值的。

But I think it's really interesting that that's what reignited growth and was responsible for growth for a while.

但我认为这真的很有趣，这就是重新点燃增长并在一段时间内推动增长的原因。

Kayvon Beykpour: And continue to be, by the way.

Kayvon Beykpour：顺便说一句，并且继续如此。

One of the lines that we had to maneuver was creating a portfolio of bets where some of them were not speculative at all.

我们必须采取的措施之一是创建一个赌注组合，其中一些赌注根本不是投机性的。

We knew that if we continue to invest in ML and getting better with recommendations in the main feed and through notifications and things like improving the onboarding flow, it was rife with opportunity.

我们知道，如果我们继续投资机器学习，并通过主提要中的建议、通知以及改进入职流程等措施来改进，那么就会充满机会。

Kayvon Beykpour: You'd have really dumb things happen.

Kayvon Beykpour：你会发生非常愚蠢的事情。

We would learn.

我们会学习。

There was one just bizarre and incredible meeting we had where we finally had got more rigorous around instrumenting our onboarding flow.

我们召开了一次奇怪而令人难以置信的会议，最终我们对入职流程进行了更加严格的规范。

And we found that in a couple countries, like we had a bug with our SMS verification flow where we wanted to verify users who were signing up with a phone number and our telco integration to send SMS verification cards just wasn't working.

我们发现，在一些国家/地区，我们的短信验证流程存在一个错误，我们想要验证使用电话号码注册的用户，而我们用于发送短信验证卡的电信公司集成却无法正常工作。

And so a huge percentage of people signing up in the UAE and other countries just couldn't use Twitter.

因此，在阿联酋和其他国家/地区注册的很大一部分人无法使用 Twitter。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so of course at the scale that we were operating in with hundreds of millions of users, you need to be able to refine the basic building blocks of the product, and that's going to lead to reliable growth.

Kayvon Beykpour：当然，按照我们拥有数亿用户的规模，您需要能够完善产品的基本构建模块，这将带来可靠的增长。

But we wanted to balance that with a portfolio of other bets and product improvements that would materially add new capabilities.

但我们希望通过一系列其他投资和产品改进来平衡这一点，从而实质性地增加新功能。

And that was a balance that I don't think existed.

我认为这种平衡并不存在。

And by the way, I don't think we nailed it either under my tenure, but it was the driving force of what I wanted to achieve, was to create a better balance that would result in evolving the product and introducing new capabilities.

顺便说一句，我认为我们在我的任期内也没有做到这一点，但这是我想要实现的目标的驱动力，是创造更好的平衡，从而改进产品并引入新功能。

And so that's what we tried to do.

这就是我们试图做的。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of what actually helped turn things around, things that I kind of gathered from what you shared so far, one is just building a little momentum, having some quick wins of new products that people start to get excited about.

Lenny Rachitsky：就实际帮助扭转局面的因素而言，我从您迄今为止分享的内容中收集到的东西，只是建立了一点动力，快速赢得了人们开始感到兴奋的新产品。

So creating more excitement down the, oh wow, we can actually try new things.

因此，创造更多的兴奋，哦哇，我们实际上可以尝试新事物。

There's also, it felt like there's a sense of trust that you built with Jack and execs of just like, okay, we can actually trust this team.

此外，感觉就像你与杰克和高管建立了一种信任感，就像，好吧，我们实际上可以信任这个团队。

Lenny Rachitsky: Also, it feels like because growth started up, there's probably a sense of like, okay, we can try some new crazy ideas.

Lenny Rachitsky：另外，感觉就像是因为增长开始了，可能会有一种感觉，好吧，我们可以尝试一些新的疯狂想法。

It feels like another part of your strategy was hires and bringing in these entrepreneurial folks to take the lead on some of these big ideas.

感觉你的战略的另一部分是雇佣和引进这些企业家来带头实现一些伟大的想法。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Was that something you actively thought about and was that a big part of the impact there?

这是您积极思考的事情吗？这是影响的一个重要部分吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: Totally.

凯冯·贝克普尔：完全可以。

Yeah.

是的。

So I think a couple things.

所以我想了几件事。

One, the only thing I'd add to what you said in terms of the ingredients, it was also just storytelling and just repetitive storytelling around this is the vision, these are the bets we're making.

第一，我唯一要补充的是你所说的成分，这也只是讲故事，只是围绕这个重复讲故事，这就是愿景，这些是我们正在做的赌注。

Here's why.

原因如下。

And you can't just tell that story once.

而且这个故事你不能只讲一次。

I'm talking internally, by the way.

顺便说一句，我是在内部谈论。

There's a whole other component of this, which is externally how do you tell, especially for a product like Twitter where it's a consumer product that hundreds of millions of people are using, and you have many constituents, you have users, you have advertisers.

这还有一个完整的其他组成部分，即从外部看你如何判断，特别是对于像 Twitter 这样的产品，它是数亿人正在使用的消费产品，并且你有很多选民，你有用户，你有广告商。

And so it was very important for us to tell the story of here's what we're doing and why.

因此，对我们来说，讲述我们正在做的事情及其原因非常重要。

Here's why you should believe in us.

这就是为什么您应该相信我们。

And by the way, give us all your constructive criticism too, because we're listening and we're going to build that into ...

顺便说一句，也请向我们提出您所有的建设性批评，因为我们正在倾听，并且我们会将其纳入......

So that storytelling was really, really important.

所以讲故事真的非常非常重要。

Kayvon Beykpour: And this is oversimplifying the world, but there's two types of internal team members.

Kayvon Beykpour：这过于简单化了世界，但内部团队成员有两种类型。

There are people who hear that story, who have been a part of the organization who's been slow, or maybe they've been outside the company as a user of Twitter, and they're like, I'd never really want to work there because it doesn't seem like a particularly ambitious product company.

有些人听到这个故事，他们是组织中行动迟缓的一员，或者他们可能作为 Twitter 用户离开了公司，他们会想，我从来都不想在那里工作，因为它看起来不像是一家特别雄心勃勃的产品公司。

And one of two things happens when you hear that story.

当你听到这个故事时，就会发生以下两件事之一。

Either you're inspired and you're like, yeah, we can finally take a swing at making this product better.

要么你受到启发，然后你会想，是的，我们终于可以努力让这个产品变得更好了。

And maybe I wasn't interested in working in this company before, but I mean, this is an iconic product, and to have an opportunity to reshape it is really exciting.

也许我之前对在这家公司工作不感兴趣，但我的意思是，这是一个标志性产品，有机会重塑它真的很令人兴奋。

Or again, oversimplified world, but there are people who are very pessimistic and maybe aren't excited by that vision.

或者再说一遍，世界过于简单化，但有些人非常悲观，也许对这种愿景并不感到兴奋。

Let's just stick to what we know works.

让我们坚持我们所知道的有效方法。

We're not going to take any big swings.

我们不会做出任何大的变动。

That's a waste of time.

那是浪费时间。

Kayvon Beykpour: I think one of the really important things about driving cultural change at the leadership level is you've got to identify whether someone's on the wagon or off the wagon and either quickly convince them to get on the wagon or if they're not on the wagon, they shouldn't be there.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为在领导层推动文化变革的真正重要的事情之一是，你必须确定某人是在马车上还是在马车外，然后迅速说服他们上马车，或者如果他们没有在马车上，他们就不应该在那里。

And that's something that we were terrible at, and we didn't have the organizational structure to be able to enact that.

这是我们最不擅长的事情，而且我们没有能够实现这一点的组织结构。

Lenny Rachitsky: The wagon is they're excited and bought into this vision and want this to happen?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们很兴奋并接受了这一愿景并希望这一切发生？

Kayvon Beykpour: Correct, and contribute towards it.

Kayvon Beykpour：正确，并为此做出贡献。

And off the wagon is like you're not at the company.

下班就好像你不在公司一样。

And we didn't have an organizational structure that could allow for that, nor frankly, the fortitude.

我们没有一个可以做到这一点的组织结构，坦率地说，也没有足够的毅力。

I include myself in this.

我自己也参与其中。

I feel like I've learned a lot about how to make that determination.

我觉得我已经学到了很多关于如何做出决定的知识。

So I think we were terrible at that.

所以我认为我们在这方面做得很糟糕。

And Elon is the whatever, if that's a spectrum, Elon is the opposite spectrum of that.

埃隆就是无论如何，如果这是一个谱系，那么埃隆就是与之相反的谱系。

His tolerance for people who are not aligned and his tolerance for low performance is famously extremely low.

众所周知，他对不一致的人的容忍度以及对低绩效的容忍度极低。

And I think it's one of the things that when I say A/B test, it's very interesting to see the extreme to which he has operated.

我认为当我说 A/B 测试时，看到他的极端操作是非常有趣的。

Kayvon Beykpour: And I think I've learned a ton around, we didn't have the organizational structure nor the fortitude to be swifter, and that made cultural change way slower.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为我学到了很多东西，我们没有组织结构，也没有加快速度的毅力，这使得文化变革速度慢了很多。

We still were able to change the culture, not as much as we should have, and certainly not as quickly as we should have or efficiently as we should have.

我们仍然能够改变文化，但没有达到我们应有的程度，当然也没有达到我们应有的速度或效率。

Because by the way, a lot of high performers who are aligned with that desire to change and build, they don't have the, there's not like an equal distribution of patients.

因为顺便说一句，很多表现出色的人都渴望改变和建设，但他们没有，病人的分布不均匀。

If you're extremely talented and you're dealing with organizational shit, you're going to go find someplace else that lets you do your craft and have impact.

如果你非常有才华，并且正在处理组织中的问题，那么你就会去寻找其他可以让你发挥自己的才能并产生影响力的地方。

So it's very difficult.

所以这是非常困难的。

Kayvon Beykpour: But anyway, going to your question, one of the things we found that was a really effective way of accelerating cultural change and also helping drive some of these product initiatives that were particularly speculative was doing small acquires.

Kayvon Beykpour：但无论如何，对于你的问题，我们发现，进行小额收购是加速文化变革的一种真正有效的方式，同时也有助于推动一些特别具有投机性的产品计划。

And really the benefit of that was, A, you bring in a founder type who is an entrepreneur, who drives urgency, who has ambition, who's ideally savvy enough to also work in the context of a large organization, which sometimes is a totally different skillset.

这样做的真正好处是，A，你引入了一位企业家类型的创始人，他有紧迫感，有雄心，理想情况下他足够精明，可以在大型组织的背景下工作，有时这是一种完全不同的技能。

I mean, it is a totally different skillset.

我的意思是，这是一套完全不同的技能。

And a lot of our most ambitious bets that were the riskiest and most misaligned with how the product worked or there was no easy staff to build on top of, a lot of those bets were driven by founders who we basically acquired and said, "Here, you are going to run this."

我们的许多最雄心勃勃的赌注都是风险最高、与产品的运作方式最不一致的，或者没有容易的员工来构建，其中很多赌注都是由我们基本上收购的创始人推动的，他们说：“在这里，你将运行这个。”

Kayvon Beykpour: And they believed in it.

Kayvon Beykpour：他们相信这一点。

They were able to rally a team around them, and it's all the attributes of a startup, but with the canvas of a product that hundreds of millions of people use and more resources.

他们能够在自己周围组建一个团队，这是初创公司的所有属性，但拥有数亿人使用的产品和更多资源。

So Spaces, Communities, Community Notes, called Birdwatch back then, these were all projects driven by ...

因此，空间、社区、社区笔记，当时称为 Birdwatch，这些都是由......驱动的项目。

Fleets, as well.

舰队也是如此。

These were all projects that were run by small teams led by entrepreneurs who we acquired, like Keith Coleman runs Community Notes, last Birdwatch.

这些项目都是由我们收购的企业家领导的小团队运营的，比如基思·科尔曼（Keith Coleman）运营的《社区笔记》（Community Notes）和《观鸟》（Birdwatch）。

He actually was my predecessor.

他实际上是我的前任。

We acquired his company so that he could be the head of product.

我们收购了他的公司，让他成为产品负责人。

And then when he moved on from that role, he was extremely passionate about this idea of crowdsource moderation and letting people annotate misleading content on the platform without Twitter acting as a policeman.

然后，当他从这个职位上离职时，他对众包审核的想法非常热衷，并让人们在平台上注释误导性内容，而无需 Twitter 充当警察。

Kayvon Beykpour: And that was a very speculative bet that by the way, a lot of people thought, most people thought was a terrible idea.

Kayvon Beykpour：这是一个非常投机的赌注，顺便说一句，很多人认为，大多数人认为这是一个糟糕的主意。

We gave Keith a little silo to go build this vision, and then it was our job to make sure that bet didn't get suffocated in the context of a big organization that would otherwise have not had patience for it.

我们给了 Keith 一个小孤岛来构建这个愿景，然后我们的工作就是确保这个赌注不会在一个大组织的背景下被窒息，否则他们就没有耐心。

Kayvon Beykpour: All of the community effort or the creator efforts started with Super Follows and tipping, and all these things were led by Esther Crawford, whose company we acquired and who had her own couple of viral moments with the Elon acquisition.

Kayvon Beykpour：所有社区的努力或创作者的努力都是从超级关注和打赏开始的，所有这些事情都是由埃丝特·克劳福德（Esther Crawford）领导的，我们收购了她的公司，她在埃隆收购中也有过一些病毒式传播的时刻。

But she's a phenomenal leader who, again, is a perfect example of balancing that entrepreneurial startup muscle with the savviness to be able to get things done at a large organization.

但她是一位非凡的领导者，她再次成为平衡创业实力与在大型组织中完成工作的精明能力的完美典范。

Fleets was run by Mo Oladam, who's an entrepreneur, and Communities has gone through a few iterations obviously and still is in the product, but John Barnett and a team of people who we acquired from Chroma Labs.

Fleets 由 Mo Oladam 运营，他是一位企业家，而 Communities 显然已经经历了几次迭代，并且仍然存在于产品中，但是 John Barnett 和我们从 Chroma Labs 收购的团队。

Kayvon Beykpour: So I think that that story of acquiring hungry, ambitious founders and giving them responsibility and latitude is a success story of Twitter's.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以我认为，收购渴望的、雄心勃勃的创始人并赋予他们责任和自由的故事是 Twitter 的成功故事。

I mean, I'm a beneficiary of such a bet as well.

我的意思是，我也是这样一个赌注的受益者。

My company Periscope was acquired, and I was given the responsibility to eventually lead the product team.

我的公司 Periscope 被收购了，我被赋予了最终领导产品团队的责任。

So I feel like that we ended up realizing, both through the company's history and through learning, that this is actually a very effective way to drive cultural change and to deliver impact because you need a special type of person to be able to both operate within the existing structure and change the structure, to know when to use the system and to know when to fuck the system.

所以我觉得，通过公司的历史和学习，我们最终意识到，这实际上是推动文化变革和产生影响的一种非常有效的方式，因为你需要一种特殊类型的人，既能够在现有结构内运作，又能够改变结构，知道何时使用系统，何时破坏系统。

Kayvon Beykpour: And I feel like my whole life has benefited from other people taking bets on me like that, to the point that even I was like, "Really?

Kayvon Beykpour：我觉得我的一生都受益于其他人这样对我下注，以至于连我自己都想，“真的吗？

You sure you want to?" And so I think I've enjoyed trying to pass the buck and do that for other people, and I've never regretted it.

你确定要吗？”所以我想我很享受为别人推卸责任的过程，而且我从来没有后悔过。

You always, taking a bet on people and especially throwing them in a deep end, which on paper they may be unqualified for, I think is one of the best ways of driving change.

我认为，你总是把赌注押在人们身上，特别是把他们扔进深渊，从纸面上看他们可能没有资格这样做，这是推动变革的最佳方式之一。

And by the way, supporting growth, you've learned so much more when you're thrown into the deep end than in other contexts.

顺便说一句，为了支持成长，当你陷入困境时，你比在其他情况下学到的东西要多得多。

And so I think it's fantastic, it's an expensive strategy if you're going to go buy a bunch of companies, but it's a great strategy for the situation that we found ourselves in at Twitter.

所以我认为这太棒了，如果你打算收购一堆公司，这是一个昂贵的策略，但对于我们在 Twitter 所处的情况来说，这是一个很好的策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like every big bet was one of these companies from the list that you just shared, and I'm glad you shared Periscope, obviously.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉每个大赌注都是您刚刚分享的列表中的这些公司之一，显然，我很高兴您分享了 Periscope。

That's a great example, too.

这也是一个很好的例子。

I guess maybe just a follow-up question here, is there anything you learned about how to do this well?

我想这可能只是一个后续问题，您是否学到了如何做好这件事？

I know you talked about maybe creating a little silo for the team, because so many companies acquire and acquihire and they just go nowhere.

我知道你谈到过可能会为团队创建一个小孤岛，因为很多公司都在收购和招聘，但他们却一事无成。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I guess just a two-part question, just like what are some tips for how to do this well at a company?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想这只是一个由两部分组成的问题，就像如何在公司做好这件事有哪些技巧一样？

And then, two, you also, we were talking offline about this previously and I think it's a really interesting point, that a lot of companies staff based on who's available versus who is right for the role, and let's wait until that person is there for us to bet on this.

然后，两个，你也，我们之前在线下讨论过这个问题，我认为这是一个非常有趣的点，很多公司的员工都是基于谁可以胜任这个角色，而让我们等到那个人在那里让我们下注。

Can you just talk about lessons there?

你能简单谈谈那里的教训吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: That last one is a huge pet peeve of mine that I feel like we learned the hard way, and particularly it's a common pattern I think in highly functional organizations where you have different people making decisions on how to staff projects, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Kayvon Beykpour：最后一个是我的一大烦恼，我觉得我们经历了惨痛的教训，尤其是我认为在功能强大的组织中，这是一种常见模式，在这些组织中，你有不同的人来决定如何为项目配备人员，这本身并没有什么问题。

But I think in the situations, in the situation we found ourselves in where we had this sort of cultural evolution that we were going through where some people just didn't agree with the things that we were prioritizing, they were begrudgingly going along with it, but you would end up in a situation where the combination of that sort of cultural shift and strategy and the fact that the way teams were being staffed was not, there's ultimately no single decision maker other than the CEO and Jack is not going to get in the weeds and debate a staffing decision on the team, resulted in a situation where oftentimes we'd have projects, like the one I mentioned about hiding replies, where there wasn't even an agreement on the team about whether this was a good idea and whether this is worth trying or how to do it.

但我认为，在这种情况下，我们发现自己正经历这种文化演变，有些人只是不同意我们优先考虑的事情，他们不情愿地同意，但最终会遇到这样一种情况：这种文化转变和战略以及团队的人员配置方式并没有结合起来，最终除了首席执行官和杰克之外，没有任何一个决策者不会陷入困境并争论一个问题。团队的人员配置决定，导致了这样一种情况：我们经常会有项目，就像我提到的隐藏回复的项目一样，团队中甚至没有就这是否是一个好主意、是否值得尝试或如何去做达成一致。

Kayvon Beykpour: And imagine, it's hard enough to build something from nothing.

Kayvon Beykpour：想象一下，从无到有构建一些东西已经足够困难了。

It's even harder if the team doesn't believe in it.

如果团队不相信它，那就更难了。

This is to the point of just being toxic.

这已经到了有毒的程度了。

The startup would never succeed if all the people who are working on that startup aren't to the point of being perhaps irrational obsessed with that idea.

如果所有参与该初创公司工作的人都没有达到可能非理性地痴迷于这个想法的地步，那么该初创公司永远不会成功。

And still willing to see truth, you need to be able to see whether the thing is working or not, but if you don't believe it in the first place, I'm not betting on that succeeding.

仍然愿意看到真相，你需要能够看到这件事是否有效，但如果你一开始就不相信它，我就不会赌它会成功。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so this was common, and sometimes not as extreme as the examples that I mentioned, but I think one of the lessons I learned, and it's quite intuitive actually, is you need to staff projects with the team of people that are well equipped from a skillset standpoint, but more importantly have an obsession with the idea they want to pursue.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以这种情况很常见，有时并不像我提到的例子那么极端，但我认为我学到的教训之一，实际上非常直观，是你需要与从技能组的角度来看装备精良的团队一起进行项目，但更重要的是对他们想要追求的想法有执着。

It's going to make them work harder, it's going to make them be more creative.

这会让他们更加努力地工作，让他们变得更有创造力。

It's going to make them have the sufficient level of ambition and desire to will this thing into existence.

这将使他们有足够的野心和愿望来实现这件事。

Because every project, whether big or small, there is an element of you need to will this thing into existence because it's hard.

因为每个项目，无论大小，都需要你用意志力去实现，因为这很困难。

The only way you're going to get through that pain is by having that desire, and I think a very easy cheat code for an organization to employ is to say, if you're going to work on something, especially if it's speculative or risky, staff it with a set of people who believe in it and really want to learn whether this solves a customer problem or not.

你要克服这种痛苦的唯一方法就是拥有这种愿望，我认为组织使用的一个非常简单的作弊代码就是说，如果你要从事某件事，特别是如果它是投机性的或有风险的，那么就配备一群相信它并真正想了解这是否能解决客户问题的人。

Because if you don't have that ingredient, it's going to drag everyone down and it's just not going to be as successful.

因为如果你没有这个要素，就会拖累每个人，而且不会那么成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Heap, the product analytics solution that shows you everything users do on your digital product, website, mobile product, or other digital services.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Heap 为您带来，Heap 是一款产品分析解决方案，可向您展示用户在您的数字产品、网站、移动产品或其他数字服务上所做的一切。

We all know a great digital experience when we see it.

当我们看到它时，我们都知道这是一种很棒的数字体验。

It's intuitive, it anticipates your needs, and it makes it easy for you to do your job.

它很直观，可以预测您的需求，并且可以让您轻松完成工作。

If you're trying to build that kind of experience for your users, you need up to date, reliable information about what your users do in your product and why they do it.

如果您想为用户打造这种体验，您需要有关用户在您的产品中执行哪些操作以及为何执行此操作的最新、可靠的信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: Want to know how your users behave across platforms, what keeps them coming back, what they're doing that you're not even aware of?

Lenny Rachitsky：想知道您的用户在跨平台上的行为如何，是什么让他们回来，他们在做什么而您甚至不知道？

Well, I have some great news for you.

嗯，我有一些好消息要告诉你。

Heap captures all of this user activity for you automatically and then gives you definitive answers to all your questions about user behavior in seconds, not weeks.

堆会自动为您捕获所有这些用户活动，然后在几秒钟（而不是几周）内为您提供有关用户行为的所有问题的明确答案。

With Heap, it's easy to prioritize the product investments that improve conversion, engagement, and retention.

借助 Heap，可以轻松确定可提高转化率、参与度和保留率的产品投资的优先顺序。

Visit heap.io/lenny to get started with a demo.

访问 heap.io/lenny 开始演示。

That's heap.io/lenny.

那是 heap.io/lenny。

This kind of touches on something I wanted to touch on, which is jobs-to-be-done.

这触及了我想触及的事情，那就是待完成的工作。

This is maybe one of the most recurring controversies of the podcast, is jobs-to-be-done amazing or is it really bad and not something you should do?

这可能是播客中最常见的争议之一，待完成的工作是令人惊叹还是真的很糟糕而不是你应该做的事情？

We've had many guests share their opinions.

我们有很多客人分享了他们的意见。

I feel like at Twitter, jobs-to-be-done was implemented so strictly that it burned a lot of people out on it.

我觉得在 Twitter，待完成的工作执行得非常严格，以至于让很多人精疲力尽。

It's like, oh my, this is not anything anyone should ever do.

就像，天哪，这不是任何人都应该做的事情。

I'm curious, just your lessons and experience of just with frameworks in general, the jobs-to-be- done specifically, maybe even OKRs.

我很好奇，只是您在一般框架方面的经验教训，特别是要完成的工作，甚至可能是 OKR。

Kayvon Beykpour: I've only seen one interview on your show that covers this.

Kayvon Beykpour：我只在你的节目中看到过一次涉及这一点的采访。

Sriram was particularly spicy when he talked about jobs-to-be-done, which is unsurprising because.

斯里拉姆在谈到待完成的工作时特别热情，这并不奇怪，因为。

I spent a lot of time talking to Sriram about jobs-to-be-done.

我花了很多时间和 Sriram 讨论待完成的工作。

I mean, I guess I'll just start by saying I was not a fan of how we leveraged jobs-to-be-done at Twitter.

我的意思是，我想我首先要说的是，我不喜欢我们在 Twitter 上如何利用待完成的工作。

I thought it was exhausting and not particularly helpful, and so it's a particularly sore subject for me because I was sort of charged with defending it and rolling it out.

我认为这让人筋疲力尽，而且不是特别有帮助，所以这对我来说是一个特别痛苦的话题，因为我有点负责捍卫它并推出它。

It's hard to do that when you don't really believe in something.

当你并不真正相信某件事时，很难做到这一点。

But...

但是...

Kayvon Beykpour: It's hard to do that when you don't really believe in something, but to me the critique is less about Jobs-to-be-Done though there are many critiques of it and more about every framework at its limit is followed to such a religious extent it's just unhelpful.

Kayvon Beykpour：当你并不真正相信某件事时，很难做到这一点，但对我来说，批评不是关于“待完成的工作”，尽管对它有很多批评，更多的是关于每个框架的极限，都遵循宗教程度，这毫无帮助。

You need to have nuance in how you leverage these frameworks.

您需要了解如何利用这些框架的细微差别。

Otherwise, you lose the forest through the trees and you end up following a process for the sake of following a process.

否则，你就会因树木而失去森林，并且最终会为了遵循一个过程而遵循一个过程。

And that's what happened with Jobs-to-be-Done.

这就是“待完成的工作”所发生的情况。

So I think that's my real critique of it.

所以我认为这是我对它的真正批评。

It's not the...

这不是那个...

I mean listen, the premise of Jobs-to-be-Done and my most charitable take on Jobs-to-be-Done, which is actually useful is that it forces you to look at things through the lens of customers and understanding what their needs are and understanding what their true alternatives are outside of the narrow lens of your product.

我的意思是听着，“待完成的工作”的前提以及我对“待完成的工作”最慈善的看法，这实际上很有用，因为它迫使你通过客户的视角来看待事物，了解他们的需求是什么，并了解他们在产品的狭隘视角之外真正的替代方案是什么。

Kayvon Beykpour: And I think that's just healthy product thinking.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为这只是健康的产品思维。

You don't need a framework called Jobs-to-be-Done.

您不需要一个名为“待完成的工作”的框架。

You don't need to think about milkshakes in order to be able to do that.

您不需要考虑奶昔就能做到这一点。

It's like you could employ common sense or you could leverage something like Jobs-to-be-Done, to be able to force your mind to think of things through that lens.

就像你可以运用常识，或者你可以利用“待完成的工作”之类的东西，来迫使你的大脑通过这个镜头来思考事情。

So I think that's my charitable view on what Jobs-to-be-Done can help you do, but as a framework into and of itself as a sole governing principle of what to build, it's just not useful.

因此，我认为这是我对“待完成的工作”可以帮助您做的事情的慈善观点，但作为一个框架及其本身作为构建内容的唯一管理原则，它只是没有用。

Kayvon Beykpour: By the way, in the same way as, and I think Twitter had this problem as well prior to our detour around Jobs-to-be-Done, if the only way the organization is trained to think about what to build and what not to build is OKRs, it's equally unhelpful at the limit because sure, you can have a good sense of what you should build to drive metrics, but by the way, you might be focusing on the wrong metrics or that might not help you have the right balance of things to build.

Kayvon Beykpour：顺便说一句，我认为 Twitter 在我们围绕待完成的工作绕道之前也遇到过这个问题，如果组织接受培训来思考构建什么和不构建什么的唯一方法是 OKR，那么它在极限下同样没有帮助，因为当然，你可以很好地了解应该构建什么来驱动指标，但顺便说一句，你可能会关注错误的指标，或者这可能对你没有帮助建立适当的平衡。

That might not help you see when the things that you're building are actually hostile to customers.

这可能无法帮助您了解您正在构建的产品何时实际上对客户怀有敌意。

Kayvon Beykpour: So just as an interesting example, the thing that I remember about your interview with Shriram, if I'm not mistaken, I think he mentioned, and I love Shriram, I'd be happy to debate him about this on his podcast, but he mentioned one of the examples I think was the Amazon.

Kayvon Beykpour：作为一个有趣的例子，我记得你对 Shriram 的采访，如果我没记错的话，我想他提到过，我爱 Shriram，我很乐意在他的播客上与他辩论这个问题，但他提到了我认为的例子之一是亚马逊。

When you get order confirmation from Amazon, they intentionally bury the order details.

当您收到亚马逊的订单确认时，他们会故意隐藏订单详细信息。

You have to click the link and authenticate to go see what you ordered.

您必须单击链接并进行身份验证才能查看您订购的商品。

I don't give two shits what metrics that drive for Amazon.

我根本不关心推动亚马逊发展的指标是什么。

That is one of the most customer hostile things I experience in my daily life.

这是我在日常生活中经历过的最让客户敌意的事情之一。

I order a lot of things from Amazon.

我从亚马逊订购了很多东西。

I hate the fact that I can't search my email to see what I ordered.

我讨厌这样一个事实：我无法搜索我的电子邮件来查看我订购的商品。

And so I think the problem with these frameworks is that you lose nuance and ultimately, and this is where I agree with Shriram, he actually mentioned this on your podcast as well, you need to be able to make trade-off decisions that balance what's right for the organization and what's right for the customer.

所以我认为这些框架的问题在于你失去了细微差别，最终，这就是我同意 Shriram 的观点，他实际上也在你的播客上提到了这一点，你需要能够做出权衡决策，平衡什么适合组织，什么适合客户。

Kayvon Beykpour: And sometimes based on how you devise your frameworks, your metrics aren't actually aligned with the customer's benefit.

Kayvon Beykpour：有时，根据您设计框架的方式，您的指标实际上与客户的利益并不相符。

Like the Amazon example, and we had many famous examples in Twitter's history, which were the same.

就像亚马逊的例子一样，我们在Twitter的历史上也有很多著名的例子，都是一样的。

One of our key metrics that we always optimized Shriram growing was DAU and we had obviously the rank timeline did wonders for growing DAU and it was a great experience for many customers, but we often had features that would not lead to a good customer experience and the team would just be blind towards leaving hostile customer experiences in place because it was good for metrics and aggregate.

我们始终优化 Shriram 增长的关键指标之一是 DAU，显然，排名时间表对于 DAU 的增长产生了奇迹，这对许多客户来说是一次很棒的体验，但我们经常有一些功能不会带来良好的客户体验，团队会盲目地保留敌对的客户体验，因为这对指标和聚合都有好处。

And the famous example of this is we had this toggle, which we called Swish very affectionately, but it was like a sparkle icon.

著名的例子是我们有一个开关，我们非常亲切地将其称为“Swish”，但它就像一个闪闪发光的图标。

Kayvon Beykpour: Before you could switch between the rank timeline and the following, that reverse chronological timeline, which is still in the product right now, it was just the toggle.

Kayvon Beykpour：在您可以在排名时间线和以下时间线（目前仍在产品中）之间切换之前，这只是切换。

You would press a button and it would turn your feed reverse chron, which very few people use as a percentage of our users.

你按下一个按钮，它就会将你的提要反向计时，很少有人使用它（占我们用户的百分比）。

But you had power users who really cared about having a reverse chronological timeline and we took so many baby steps on the evolution of this product.

但有一些超级用户真正关心有一个反向时间顺序的时间线，我们在这个产品的发展过程中采取了很多小步骤。

The very first baby step was you press the toggle, it turns you to reverse chron and then we would pull the rug out from underneath you and make the experience go back to the rank timeline after, I don't know, 24 hours or something like that.

第一个小步骤是你按下开关，它会让你反向计时，然后我们会从你下面拉出地毯，让体验在（我不知道）24 小时或类似的时间后回到等级时间线。

Kayvon Beykpour: And the reason that the team felt strongly about keeping it this way is it was better for metrics.

Kayvon Beykpour：团队之所以强烈建议保持这种方式，是因为这样更有利于指标。

Why?

为什么？

Even if Lenny wants a reverse chron feed, we knew that he would spend more time in the app if we put them in the rank timeline and this was the number of debates that we had about this because the team understandably was like, "This is good for metrics", but at the same time you'd have customers being like, "I fucking hate this experience.

即使 Lenny 想要反向时间源，我们也知道，如果我们将它们放入排名时间线中，他会在应用程序上花费更多时间，这就是我们对此进行的辩论数量，因为团队可以理解地会说，“这对指标有好处”，但同时你也会有客户说，“我他妈的讨厌这种体验。

I'm telling you I want reverse chron.

我告诉你我想要逆时针。

Stop randomly changing it for me."

别再随意给我改了。”

Kayvon Beykpour: Instagram has I think gone through their own struggles with this as well.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为 Instagram 也经历了自己的挣扎。

They tiptoed their way towards ultimately giving people control and the difficulty in making product decisions comes down ultimately to making these trade-off decisions and you have to look at things through the lens of the customer.

他们小心翼翼地最终让人们拥有控制权，而做出产品决策的困难最终归结为做出这些权衡决策，你必须从客户的角度看待事物。

You have to balance that with what's driving the right business outcomes.

您必须在这一点与推动正确业务成果的因素之间取得平衡。

And sometimes those things are aligned and sometimes they're not, and the answer isn't any one framework.

有时这些东西是一致的，有时则不然，答案不是任何一个框架。

Sometimes it's just good old-fashioned judgment and product taste.

有时这只是良好的老式判断力和产品品味。

And so that's where my take is different.

这就是我的看法不同的地方。

I don't think the issue is Jobs-to-be-Done, although I'm not the biggest fan of Jobs-to-be-Done.

我不认为问题是“待完成的工作”，尽管我不是“待完成的工作”的最大粉丝。

The issue is just having the right nuance and ultimately the right leadership to be able to weigh these things and see when your frameworks are not actually helping you make the right decisions.

问题在于拥有正确的细微差别，并最终拥有正确的领导力，以便能够权衡这些事情，并了解您的框架何时实际上无法帮助您做出正确的决策。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's really important advice and I love hearing the details if I actually think about this stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是非常重要的建议，如果我真正考虑过这个问题，我喜欢听到细节。

Actually finding this balance is very hard in practice.

实际上在实践中找到这种平衡是非常困难的。

I'm curious if there's something you could recommend or have learned about how to know when you've gone too far with a framework like signs like you have implemented this to religiously and maybe you should be thinking a little more broadly.

我很好奇是否有一些东西你可以推荐或者已经学会了如何知道你何时对框架（例如你已经虔诚地实现了这个标志）走得太远了，也许你应该更广泛地思考。

Kayvon Beykpour: There's two, I think, simple and obvious ones.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为有两个简单而明显的原因。

One is if the result of your framework is that subjectively bad decisions are being made, then something's got to change.

一是如果你的框架的结果是主观上做出了错误的决定，那么就必须做出改变。

Assuming the person who's making this assessment has good product taste, which is in of itself subjective obviously, but my personal view on this would be in the role that I had, if I saw that our organization was being incentivized to make decisions that to some non-trivial degree of the time were just bad decisions that I don't like as a user, I can't stand by as a user or builder, then something's got to change.

假设进行此评估的人具有良好的产品品味，这本身显然是主观的，但我个人对此的看法将取决于我所扮演的角色，如果我看到我们的组织被激励做出决策，而这些决策在某种程度上是我作为用户不喜欢的错误决策，我不能作为用户或构建者袖手旁观，那么某些事情就必须改变。

Either bad judgment was made in following the process or the process was wrong, or if that framework, it didn't even lead to the right debates, then that's how you know.

要么在遵循流程时做出了错误的判断，要么流程是错误的，或者如果该框架甚至没有导致正确的辩论，那么这就是你所知道的。

Either you have an incentive problem but the team did what they were incentivized to do or that there was bad judgment and that's a different problem obviously.

要么存在激励问题，但团队做了他们被激励去做的事情，要么存在错误的判断，这显然是另一个问题。

Kayvon Beykpour: But I think in the situation we found ourselves in where the team was again understandably hyper focused on driving DAU because that was the strategy for so long.

Kayvon Beykpour：但我认为，在我们发现自己所处的情况下，团队再次过度专注于推动 DAU，这是可以理解的，因为这是长期以来的策略。

It left so little room for even taking ambitious bets that in the short term wouldn't drive DAU, like some of our bets that I still to this day believe in hurt DAU in the short term, but you had to squint and believe over time would improve some metric DAU or otherwise, like a product like Spaces.

它留下的空间非常小，即使是在短期内不会推动 DAU 的雄心勃勃的赌注，就像我们的一些赌注，直到今天我仍然相信短期内会损害 DAU，但你必须眯着眼睛相信随着时间的推移会提高一些指标 DAU 或其他方面，就像像 Spaces 这样的产品。

In order for Spaces to be actually used, you needed to make sure that when Lenny starts a Space that people would join.

为了实际使用空间，您需要确保当 Lenny 启动空间时人们会加入。

And how do you get people to join Lenny space when they're used to having an asynchronous feed of tweets?

当人们习惯了异步推文时，如何让他们加入 Lenny space？

Well, you can send push notifications, you can occupy really trying real estate at the top of the app that lets people know, "Hey, Lenny's live right now.

好吧，你可以发送推送通知，你可以在应用程序顶部占据真正令人尝试的空间，让人们知道，“嘿，莱尼现在正在直播。

He's in a space, there's people here, come join."

他在一个空间里，这里有人，快来加入吧。”

Kayvon Beykpour: Guess what happens when you put a bar at the top of the app that tells people when they're live?

Kayvon Beykpour：猜猜当您在应用程序顶部放置一个栏来告诉人们何时直播时会发生什么？

You move tweets down, you move ads down, DAU goes down, revenue goes down.

你将推文下移，你将广告下移，DAU 就会下降，收入就会下降。

And so if you have an organization that's just hyper focused on the thing that matters is driving DAU quarter over quarter, then that doesn't leave enough room for nuance to accommodate new speculative bets that might hurt one metric, but over time have other consequences that are positive and beneficial, like enabling an entire new vector of content creation and conversation on the platform.

因此，如果您的组织过于专注于推动 DAU 逐季度增长的重要事项，那么就没有足够的空间来容纳可能损害某个指标的新投机性赌注，但随着时间的推移，会产生其他积极且有益的后果，例如在平台上启用全新的内容创建和对话向量。

I guess the other answer to your question in terms of how do you know when the framework's not serving you right?

我想你的问题的另一个答案是你如何知道框架何时不适合你？

When you start imagining and planning for a bunch of bets that the organization then sees is disincentivized to make successful, then something's got to change.

当你开始想象和计划一系列的赌注时，组织发现这些赌注缺乏成功的动力，那么就必须做出改变。

Kayvon Beykpour: Either your strategy is just not the right strategy because it doesn't abide by the frameworks or the framework needs to accommodate the fact that actually we're going to try some things that in the short term either might not show up as blips on our DAU radar or are going to help some other metric that's important.

Kayvon Beykpour：要么你的策略不是正确的策略，因为它不遵守框架，要么框架需要适应这样一个事实：实际上我们将尝试一些短期内可能不会在我们的 DAU 雷达上显示为光点的事情，或者将有助于其他一些重要指标。

And so that took us some time to get, and we tried a variety of schemes to make that work.

因此，我们花了一些时间才实现这一点，并且我们尝试了多种方案来实现这一目标。

Community Notes, the project that I was mentioning Keith started, we intentionally structured that like a startup.

社区笔记，我提到的基思启动的项目，我们有意将其构建为一家初创公司。

It was literally like we made a seed bet on Keith and his team and we were like, don't worry about the OKRs.

这实际上就像我们对 Keith 和他的团队下了种子赌注，我们说，不用担心 OKR。

We're not going to judge you on the basis of your OKRs.

我们不会根据您的 OKR 来评判您。

Kayvon Beykpour: And there's some pros and cons to that.

Kayvon Beykpour：这有一些优点和缺点。

A lot of our projects worked that way.

我们的很多项目都是这样运作的。

Fleets started that way.

舰队就是这样开始的。

Community Notes started that way and some other projects started more part of the core organization because they were so intertwined with how we were the nature of the product that it just made sense to...

社区笔记就是这样开始的，其他一些项目开始成为核心组织的更多部分，因为它们与我们产品的本质如此紧密地交织在一起，以至于......

Separating it was going to do more harm than good.

分开它弊大于利。

So you just have to figure out based on how execution is going, whether you've got the right framework and you've got to be willing to make adjustments when it's not working.

因此，你只需要根据执行情况来确定，你是否拥有正确的框架，并且当它不起作用时你必须愿意做出调整。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually really helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上非常有帮助。

The two that I'm taking away here is how often are you feeling bad about the features you're shipping?

我在这里要讲的两个问题是，您对所发布的功能感到不满意的频率是多少？

Like they're bad for users and you think they're bad for you as a user potentially.

就像它们对用户不利，而您认为它们对作为用户的您可能不利。

And the other is it keeping you from taking big bold bets that don't necessarily drive the metrics you're focusing on.

另一个是它阻止你进行大胆的赌注，而这些赌注不一定会驱动你所关注的指标。

Okay, so before I let you go, I want to spend some time on Periscope.

好吧，在我放你走之前，我想花一些时间在 Periscope 上。

I don't know if everybody knows the history and story of Periscope.

不知道大家是否知道Periscope的历史和故事。

Basically it was the biggest live video streaming platform in the world and I imagine inspired basically every other social network to build a live-streaming platform, Instagram live, Facebook, TikTok, obviously Twitter.

基本上它是世界上最大的视频直播平台，我想它基本上激励了所有其他社交网络建立一个直播平台，Instagram live、Facebook、TikTok，当然还有 Twitter。

So I want to spend a little time here and see what you learned and also just broadly consumer products, but first of all, I hear there's a story with Kobe Bryant and Periscope about him using it in some form.

所以我想在这里花一点时间看看你学到了什么以及广泛的消费产品，但首先，我听说科比·布莱恩特和 Periscope 有一个关于他以某种形式使用它的故事。

Can you share that story?

你能分享那个故事吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: Before Periscope launched publicly, which it was in March of 2015, I want to say, we had a small beta that grew to maybe 500 people in total before we actually released the app publicly.

Kayvon Beykpour：在 Periscope 于 2015 年 3 月公开发布之前，我想说的是，我们有一个小测试版，在我们真正公开发布该应用程序之前，总共有大约 500 人参与。

And in that time while we were still in beta, I was trying to personally onboard every single user and I had a shtick that I did, which was we'd get them in the app and I would start a broadcast.

那时，当我们仍处于测试阶段时，我试图亲自加入每个用户，我做了一个小技巧，那就是我们将他们放入应用程序中，然后我将开始广播。

We had a feature called Private Broadcasting that we basically built for this use case, which is someone joins, I'm going to go live and they're going to join and I'm going to show them how the app works.

我们有一个名为“私人广播”的功能，我们基本上是为此用例构建的，即有人加入，我将上线，他们将加入，我将向他们展示该应用程序的工作原理。

And we were spending a lot of time in our office, so Kobe, Chris Saka actually invited Kobe to the beta.

我们在办公室花了很多时间，所以科比、克里斯·萨卡实际上邀请科比参加测试版。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so Chris connected us and I did a private broadcast and Kobe joins and I was like, it was like 10:00 PM in the office and my routine was like, let me just walk around the office talking through the mechanics of Periscope through the lens of this demo of like, "Hey, let me show you around the office and here's how the chat works and you can tap the screen to send hearts and if you want me to do something, go to the room over there, just type it in the chat and it'll come up."

Kayvon Beykpour：克里斯联系了我们，我做了一次私人广播，科比也加入了，我当时想，就像是晚上 10:00 在办公室，我的例行公事就是，让我在办公室里走动，通过这个演示的镜头谈论 Periscope 的机制，“嘿，让我带你参观一下办公室，这就是聊天的工作原理，你可以点击屏幕发送爱心，如果你想让我做某事，就去那边的房间，只需在聊天中输入它，它就会出现。”

Kayvon Beykpour: And sort of showed one of the things that was unique about Periscope was it was a one to many broadcasts, but still low latency enough that it felt like a FaceTime so you could have the bidirectional communication between multiple viewers and a broadcaster.

Kayvon Beykpour：这表明了 Periscope 的独特之处之一是它是一对多的广播，但延迟仍然足够低，感觉就像 FaceTime，因此您可以在多个观众和广播公司之间进行双向通信。

And so I was teaching him how to use the chat and showing him the office and he was playing with it and at one point through the end of the demo he posts a comment that was like, "Why the fuck would anyone want to watch someone else stream live?" And I remember my heart sank and I started fumbling through like, "Well, we think it's cool."

所以我教他如何使用聊天并带他参观办公室，他正在玩它，在演示结束时他发表了一条评论，“他妈的为什么有人想看别人直播？”我记得我的心沉了下去，我开始摸索着，“好吧，我们认为这很酷。”

Kayvon Beykpour: And before I could even get the words out, he posted like, "I'm just fucking with you, bro.

Kayvon Beykpour：我什至还没来得及说出口，他就发了这样的帖子：“我只是在和你开玩笑，兄弟。

This is incredible." And I just remember it was just such a surreal moment that has, I'll never forget, I mean Kobe's a legend obviously, but to have him essentially troll me while also putting a point on what was cool about the experience and that was bidirectional and something he commented on to cause the broadcaster to change their behavior or change the experience, it was a really ironic full circle of showing off how the product works.

这太不可思议了。”我只记得那是一个超现实的时刻，我永远不会忘记，我的意思是科比显然是一个传奇人物，但让他本质上是在嘲笑我，同时也指出了体验中很酷的一点，这是双向的，他的评论导致广播公司改变了他们的行为或改变了体验，这真是一个讽刺的完整循环，展示了产品的工作原理。

But yeah, it's one of my favorite early Periscope stories.

但是，是的，这是我最喜欢的早期潜望镜故事之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, if I kept doing that, the manual onboarding, I'd be like, "Who's coming?" Just always worried that someone else fancy is going to join.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，如果我继续这样做，手动入职，我会说，“谁来了？”只是总是担心其他喜欢的人会加入。

You never know who Chris Saka is getting, who he's talking to.

你永远不知道克里斯·萨卡正在和谁交谈，他在和谁说话。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

Okay, so it's been about 10 years, I believe, since you sold Periscope and about six years ish since you stopped running at as CEO, something like that.

好吧，我相信，自从你出售 Periscope 以来，已经过去了大约 10 年，自从你不再担任首席执行官以来，大约已经有六年了，类似的事情。

Now as I shared, every single platform basically is doing this.

正如我所分享的，每个平台基本上都在这样做。

They added live video streaming.

他们添加了实时视频流。

I'm curious if there's anything you learned about just competing with these major platforms.

我很好奇你是否从与这些主要平台的竞争中学到了什么。

Kayvon Beykpour: Well, there's a few reasons why Periscope failed ultimately and why we shut down the app.

Kayvon Beykpour：嗯，Periscope 最终失败以及我们关闭该应用程序有几个原因。

Obviously Periscope, the technology and the mechanics still lives on because you can go live on Twitter, you can watch live broadcasts on Twitter, you can do audio conversations on Twitter and all of that is the Periscope stack.

显然，Periscope 的技术和机制仍然存在，因为你可以在 Twitter 上直播，你可以在 Twitter 上观看直播，你可以在 Twitter 上进行音频对话，所有这些都是 Periscope 堆栈。

Still there, which is awesome that the legacy lives on in a different form factor.

仍然存在，这真是太棒了，遗产以不同的形式继续存在。

The reason that the Periscope app failed, it really comes down to a few things.

Periscope 应用程序失败的原因实际上可以归结为以下几件事。

One, we did not address the core problem that retention wasn't good.

第一，我们没有解决保留率不好的核心问题。

Our poor retention was mapped by just an incredible surge in top-line user growth.

我们糟糕的留存率是由顶线用户的惊人增长所反映出来的。

And for Periscope, it was interesting because every month or two we would blow up in a new market that would just bring along an incredible surge in usage.

对于 Periscope 来说，这很有趣，因为每隔一两个月我们就会在一个新市场上爆发，这只会带来令人难以置信的使用量激增。

Kayvon Beykpour: We blew up in the US, we then blew up in France.

Kayvon Beykpour：我们在美国爆炸，然后在法国爆炸。

We then blew up in Turkey.

然后我们在土耳其爆炸了。

We then blew up in the Middle East and you had these incredible surges, but underneath that surge, the core product had retention issues and we ultimately just did not, we didn't spend enough time prioritizing, addressing those.

然后我们在中东爆发了，出现了令人难以置信的激增，但在这种激增的背后，核心产品存在保留问题，而我们最终没有这样做，我们没有花足够的时间来优先考虑并解决这些问题。

And in fact, we shipped product changes that made those retention issues worse.

事实上，我们发布的产品更改使这些保留问题变得更糟。

Compounding that was the fact that one of the theses behind our acquisition, the Twitter acquisition, was that we would leverage the scale and the community and the product mechanics of Twitter to make the product grow faster and also become more durable.

更复杂的是，我们收购 Twitter 背后的目的之一是，我们将利用 Twitter 的规模、社区和产品机制，使产品增长得更快，也变得更耐用。

And I think that's connects to one of the reasons why I feel like one of my learnings and one of the things that we knew but just failed to execute on was that I still am very skeptical that there can be a consumer product that is just focused on live video, like a generalized synchronous live video application for short form video I don't think can be durable on its own.

我认为这与我感觉自己学到的东西之一以及我们知道但未能执行的一件事的原因之一有关，那就是我仍然非常怀疑是否存在一种只专注于实时视频的消费产品，比如用于短视频的通用同步实时视频应用程序，我认为它本身无法持久。

I think you have to surround that product with enough features and capabilities to allow a community and an ecosystem of users to be able to stay in touch with one another asynchronously and synchronously.

我认为你必须为该产品提供足够的特性和功能，以使社区和用户生态系统能够异步和同步地彼此保持联系。

This is why a lot of the other products that you mentioned that incorporate live capabilities and we're shameless about copying.

这就是为什么你提到的许多其他产品都包含实时功能，而我们却厚颜无耻地复制。

What was working about Periscope, they're surrounded by a scaffolding that lets people also stay in touch with each other.

Periscope 的作用在于，它们被脚手架包围，可以让人们互相保持联系。

Asynchronously Instagram, it's an asynchronous product that has synchronous features like live.

异步Instagram，它是一个异步产品，具有直播等同步功能。

Same with TikTok obviously.

显然与 TikTok 相同。

And I think we were in this position where it was a live only product.

我认为我们现在的处境是，它是一款仅现场直播的产品。

Kayvon Beykpour: You are connecting with your audience and having a great time when you're broadcasting live, but you're not using the product to keep in touch with that community when you're not broadcasting.

Kayvon Beykpour：当您进行现场直播时，您可以与观众建立联系并度过愉快的时光，但当您不进行直播时，您并没有使用该产品与该社区保持联系。

How often throughout the day would you broadcast live from your phone?

您一天中通过手机进行直播的频率是多少？

And mind you, this is different for products that are live.

请注意，这对于实时产品来说是不同的。

There are live consumer products that focus on a specific vertical like whatnot for selling or Twitch for gaming that have very different properties that make it more durable as a standalone live product.

有些直播消费产品专注于特定的垂直领域，例如用于销售的产品或用于游戏的 Twitch，它们具有非常不同的属性，使其作为独立的直播产品更加耐用。

But Periscope was really in this consumer generalized live-streaming from a phone land, and I think it was just not durable to have the product be live only.

但 Periscope 确实是在手机领域进行消费者普遍的直播，我认为仅让该产品进行直播是不持久的。

And the time it took us to integrate with Twitter was way too long.

我们与 Twitter 集成所花费的时间太长了。

And there was reasons for that that come down to just how distracted Twitter was with its own roadmap and refining the core and they just had other fish to fry basically.

造成这种情况的原因在于，Twitter 对自己的路线图和核心内容的完善感到心烦意乱，而且他们基本上还有其他的事情要做。

Kayvon Beykpour: And all of that leads us to competition because at some point Facebook woke up and decided this is cool and we need to go build this.

Kayvon Beykpour：所有这些都导致我们面临竞争，因为在某个时候 Facebook 醒来并认为这很酷，我们需要去构建它。

And I obviously wasn't there on the inside, but legend has it, Mark says, "Hey, you 300 people, stop what you're doing.

显然我并不在场，但据传说，马克说：“嘿，你们这 300 个人，停止你们正在做的事情。

Go basically make live exist in our product as a first experience."

Go 基本上让 live 存在于我们的产品中作为第一次体验。”

Kayvon Beykpour: And if you have that level of organizational effort put on building something that by the way, you don't have to spend any time wondering what the product looks like, just go copy these features basically and make them work.

Kayvon Beykpour：如果你有一定程度的组织努力来构建某种东西，那么你就不必花任何时间想知道产品是什么样子，只需复制这些功能并使其发挥作用即可。

And they did a lot of other savvy things too from a partnership standpoint.

从合作伙伴的角度来看，他们还做了很多其他明智的事情。

We had a lot of prominent streamers that ranged from influencer or just creative people that became known on Periscopes, all the way up to celebrities like Kevin Hart and others who were prolific Periscopers that Facebook just went and bought out.

我们有很多著名的主播，其中包括因 Periscopes 出名的影响者或创意人士，一直到凯文·哈特 (Kevin Hart) 等名人，他们都是 Facebook 刚刚收购的多产 Periscopes。

Kayvon Beykpour: They were just like, "Cool, we're going to pay you a bunch of money to stream exclusively with us." So they hit us from all sides.

Kayvon Beykpour：他们就像是，“酷，我们将付给你一大笔钱让你独家与我们合作。”所以他们从四面八方袭击我们。

They had the entire company put their effort towards building live in a way that was cohesive in the core product first with Facebook and then Instagram and then also attacked it from the creator as well.

他们让整个公司都努力以一种与核心产品具有凝聚力的方式进行直播，首先是 Facebook，然后是 Instagram，然后也从创作者那里发起了攻击。

And we were too slow and it was very painful to think about because it was like many other insights that Twitter had early.

我们的速度太慢了，想想就非常痛苦，因为这就像 Twitter 早期获得的许多其他见解一样。

Twitter had the right insight, but botched the follow through.

Twitter 的洞察是正确的，但后续行动却很糟糕。

I'm not pointing fingers, I blame myself for that just as much, but there's a pattern where Twitter is really great at spotting meaningful consumer behavior changes.

我并不是在指责，我也同样责怪自己，但 Twitter 确实非常擅长发现有意义的消费者行为变化。

They spotted Vine and acquired Vine, botched it, spotted Periscope, botched it, spotted Instagram by the way, before Facebook tried to buy Instagram, Twitter was trying to buy Instagram, and there are other reasons why that didn't fall through, but it's interesting to me, it's one of the interesting aspects of Twitter's history.

他们发现了 Vine，又收购了 Vine，搞砸了，发现了 Periscope，搞砸了，顺便发现了 Instagram，在 Facebook 试图收购 Instagram 之前，Twitter 也试图收购 Instagram，还有其他原因导致这件事没有失败，但这对我来说很有趣，这是 Twitter 历史上有趣的方面之一。

Kayvon Beykpour: They were phenomenal at spotting meaningful changes in consumer social behavior, and actually putting their money where their mouth is in terms of trying to follow through on bringing those bets in-house, but then botching the execution.

Kayvon Beykpour：他们非常善于发现消费者社会行为的有意义的变化，并且实际上把钱放在嘴上，试图将这些赌注落实到内部，但随后却搞砸了执行。

And so that was one of the things that was really motivating for me when I was in my role leading product of Twitter was I didn't want to make that mistake and we didn't end as up buying anything like Vine or Periscope and keeping the product.

因此，当我担任 Twitter 产品的领导者时，真正激励我的事情之一就是我不想犯这样的错误，我们最终没有购买 Vine 或 Periscope 之类的东西并保留产品。

We obviously bought lots of small acquirers, but we did obviously have a bit of a story with Clubhouse that ended up with us building Spaces and competing with them.

显然，我们收购了很多小型收购者，但我们显然与 Clubhouse 有一些故事，最终我们建造了 Spaces 并与他们竞争。

But anyway, that was a long, rambly story.

但无论如何，那是一个漫长而漫无目的的故事。

Hopefully that answered your question.

希望这回答了你的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, there's so many.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，有很多。

Again, it's all these fractals of thought threads I want to follow and ask you about.

再说一遍，我想跟踪并询问您的正是这些思想线索的分形。

Real quick on the Vine and Periscope point, I was going to ask this.

关于 Vine 和 Periscope 点，我很快就想问这个。

Twitter, as you said, had the opportunity to win in video in so many ways.

正如你所说，Twitter 有机会在很多方面赢得视频领域的胜利。

Vine was amazing, killing everyone, loved it, and then it's fades away.

Vine 太棒了，它杀死了所有人，喜欢它，然后就消失了。

I guess, you already shared a lot of challenges Twitter had with executing, shipping, Secret Cows, things like that.

我想，您已经分享了 Twitter 在执行、运输、秘密奶牛等方面面临的许多挑战。

Is there anything specific with video?

视频有什么具体的内容吗？

Was it just like, oh, this is not actually a huge priority and we're just going to ride it for now and that's why it didn't work out?

是不是就像，哦，这实际上并不是一个重要的优先事项，我们只是暂时使用它，这就是它没有成功的原因？

Or is there anything more that?

或者还有其他什么吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: No, it's even more like pathetic than that 'cause I think Twitter did believe in video, but it made this classical mistake that we also unfortunately recreated with Periscope, which was they had the insight around short-run video, they bought Vine.

Kayvon Beykpour：不，这比这更可悲，因为我认为 Twitter 确实相信视频，但它犯了这个经典错误，不幸的是我们也用 Periscope 重现了这个错误，他们对短视频有洞察力，他们买了 Vine。

They then competed with Vine internally.

然后他们在内部与 Vine 竞争。

So Vine was a separate organization within Twitter, separate office obviously in New York and then Twitter rather than integrated holistically into the product and pour gasoline on it, they built a native Twitter video feature that was a different stack, different team.

因此，Vine 是 Twitter 内的一个独立组织，显然是在纽约的独立办公室，然后 Twitter 并没有整体集成到产品中并为其注入汽油，而是构建了一个原生 Twitter 视频功能，这是一个不同的堆栈、不同的团队。

It became what you think of as Twitter video now.

它变成了你现在所认为的 Twitter 视频。

It's like the most simple active uploading video and all the professional video tools called Media Studio that let publishers like ESPN put content.

这就像最简单的主动上传视频和所有称为 Media Studio 的专业视频工具，可以让 ESPN 等发布商发布内容。

All of that was basically built as a separate team, separate organization, separate product that was competing with Vine.

所有这些基本上都是作为一个独立的团队、独立的组织、独立的产品构建的，与 Vine 竞争。

You had two visions for short form video that were manifesting, and that's the quickest way for things to get messy.

你对短视频有两种愿景正在显现，而这是让事情变得混乱的最快方式。

Kayvon Beykpour: And of course the separate startup team is going to get, you're not going to be able to make good on the vision of buying the company and integrating it in all the right ways if you compete with it internally.

Kayvon Beykpour：当然，如果你在内部与公司竞争，那么独立的初创团队将无法实现收购公司并以所有正确的方式整合公司的愿景。

And we had a similar thing happen with Periscope.

我们在 Periscope 上也发生了类似的事情。

We were very focused on Periscope with separate organizations, separate structures, separate app.

我们非常专注于具有独立组织、独立结构、独立应用程序的 Periscope。

Periscope at the time primarily was focused on UGC live video.

Periscope 当时主要专注于 UGC 直播视频。

So user-generated content being streamed from a phone.

因此，用户生成的内容是从手机流式传输的。

Twitter then decided to get in the premium live video business very famously with acquiring rights to Thursday night football, the NFL.

随后，Twitter 决定进军优质直播视频业务，并收购了 NFL 周四橄榄球之夜的转播权。

Guess what happened?

猜猜发生了什么？

We competed internally rather than have a cohesive technical and product vision for how to embrace live video across the spectrum of UGC and premium live video, Twitter put a separate team in charge of premium with a separate product, separate technology stack.

我们在内部竞争，而不是在如何跨 UGC 和优质直播视频范围内拥抱直播视频方面拥有一个有凝聚力的技术和产品愿景，Twitter 让一个单独的团队通过单独的产品、单独的技术堆栈来负责优质服务。

And so you had two ways to manifest live video on the product.

因此，您可以通过两种方式在产品上显示实时视频。

It was like UGC live video, which was awkwardly not even really implemented well with Twitter at the time.

这就像 UGC 直播视频，尴尬的是，当时 Twitter 甚至没有很好地实现这一点。

And then premium live video, which had totally different UX, total different team, totally different architecture.

然后是高级直播视频，它有完全不同的用户体验、完全不同的团队、完全不同的架构。

And by the way, the company put a tremendous amount of energy and investment in talking about Twitter being a place to watch the NFL.

顺便说一句，该公司投入了大量精力和投资来宣传 Twitter 是观看 NFL 的地方。

And meanwhile you had this burgeoning UGC ecosystem, so this was like we're making the same mistake all over again.

与此同时，UGC 生态系统正在蓬勃发展，所以这就像我们再次犯同样的错误。

Now, luckily in the Periscope case with a lot of persistence and impatience and table pounding, we eventually fixed that mistake, but we wasted a tremendous amount of time.

现在，幸运的是，在潜望镜案例中，凭借大量的坚持、不耐烦和敲桌子，我们最终修复了这个错误，但我们浪费了大量的时间。

It was just a lot of headbutting in politics and eventually it took us a lot of time to technically reintegrate things together and now it's clean and awesome, right?

这只是政治上的很多冲突，最终我们花了很多时间在技术上将事物重新整合在一起，现在它干净而且很棒，对吧？

Kayvon Beykpour: ESPN can go live with behind the scenes content at Wimbledon and it's the same technology stack and the same user experience, the powers, Lenny going live from his iPhone.

Kayvon Beykpour：ESPN 可以在温布尔登直播幕后内容，这是相同的技术堆栈和相同的用户体验、功能，Lenny 通过他的 iPhone 进行直播。

But I think that was one of the reasons why it was an example of failed execution that ended up wasting time, resources and just leading to a subpar product experience that other companies I think have avoided making such mistakes.

但我认为这就是为什么它是一个执行失败的例子的原因之一，最终浪费了时间、资源，并导致产品体验不佳，而我认为其他公司已经避免了此类错误。

Facebook being a prime example, as frustrated, I am with them as a competitor for having really taken over the use case for live video.

Facebook 就是一个典型的例子，尽管我很沮丧，但我和他们一样是竞争对手，因为他们真正接管了实时视频的用例。

Got to hand it to them, brilliant execution, have a lot of respect for them.

必须把它交给他们，出色的执行力，非常尊重他们。

So we made sure to not make that mistake moving forward.

因此，我们确保今后不会再犯这样的错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there was reason for that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想这是有原因的。

Partly I imagine this calcification of just like, we can't get you done, we just need to start a new team and do this thing.

在某种程度上，我想象这种僵化就像，我们无法完成你的任务，我们只需要组建一个新团队来完成这件事。

I imagine it always comes from like, oh, this makes sense.

我想它总是来自这样的感觉，哦，这是有道理的。

And then you realize, okay, this was a terrible idea down the road.

然后你意识到，好吧，这是一个糟糕的主意。

Kayvon Beykpour: Yeah, it's that and also leadership.

Kayvon Beykpour：是的，就是这样，还有领导力。

When you don't have unified leadership around these things, you end up making decisions that are in conflict with one another.

当你在这些事情上没有统一的领导时，你最终会做出相互冲突的决定。

They're just need a highly opinionated person at the top that avoids that kind of messiness from a.

他们只需要一个固执己见的高层人士来避免这种混乱。

Kayvon Beykpour: That kind of messiness from a product and engineering standpoint.

Kayvon Beykpour：从产品和工程的角度来看，这种混乱。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned Clubhouse, so I think what's interesting is one, many people copy Periscope as a product.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了 Clubhouse，所以我认为有趣的是，很多人复制 Periscope 作为一种产品。

I don't know if you'll describe it as copying, but it feels like spaces very inspired by Clubhouse.

我不知道你是否会把它描述为复制，但感觉就像是受俱乐部会所启发的空间。

Do you have just a current philosophy on when it makes sense to be super inspired by another product and build it into your existing product versus like, no, you should not do this?

您是否有一个当前的理念，即何时应该受到另一种产品的超级启发并将其构建到您现有的产品中，而不是像“不，您不应该这样做”？

Kayvon Beykpour: I think it's always about doing the right thing for the customer.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为最重要的是为客户做正确的事情。

Everyone has always been shameless to be shamelessly inspired by other people's ideas.

每个人总是厚颜无耻地受到别人想法的启发。

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

我不认为这有什么问题。

I think copying ideas can be done in poor taste and can be done with taste.

我认为抄袭想法可以低俗地完成，也可以有品味地完成。

I think some of the people who copied Periscope did so in poor taste, can't blame them.

我认为一些抄袭 Periscope 的人这样做的品味很差，不能责怪他们。

I wouldn't have done it the same way, but it worked.

我不会以同样的方式这样做，但它确实有效。

So you can't say it's the wrong thing.

所以你不能说这是错误的。

I think that it's possible to take ideas in good taste and take ideas in poor taste.

我认为，有可能接受高品味的想法，也可能接受低俗的想法。

Kayvon Beykpour: And I think with Clubhouse, we actually had been working on audio.

Kayvon Beykpour：我认为在 Clubhouse 中，我们实际上一直在致力于音频方面的工作。

Audio was one of those bets I mentioned that we structured very separately with a team of people, many of which were the former Periscope team, that when we wound down Periscope, I felt very strongly that there was still something to the idea of synchronous conversations.

音频是我提到的那些赌注之一，我们与一个团队非常分开地构建，其中许多人是前 Periscope 团队，当我们结束 Periscope 时，我非常强烈地感觉到同步对话的想法仍然存在。

Because one of the famous things that I think we botched with Periscope is that we always...

因为我认为我们在 Periscope 上搞砸的著名事情之一是我们总是......

Our dream and our vision for Periscope and how we talked about it was was a mechanism for teleportation.

我们对 Periscope 的梦想和愿景以及我们如何谈论它是一种隐形传输机制。

You could see through someone else's eyes and be teleported somewhere else.

你可以通过别人的眼睛看到并被传送到其他地方。

It was like that was the story we told ourselves.

就好像这就是我们告诉自己的故事。

That was the thing that inspired Periscope.

这就是潜望镜的灵感来源。

And to a certain extent, a lot of people did use the product for that way.

在某种程度上，很多人确实是这样使用该产品的。

You could go see what it was like someplace in the world where it was something amazing happening or civil unrest happening or some important moment happening with breaking news or otherwise.

你可以去看看世界上某个地方发生了什么令人惊奇的事情或发生内乱或发生重大新闻或其他重要时刻。

Kayvon Beykpour: But it turns out the vast majority of our users were not using Periscope that way.

Kayvon Beykpour：但事实证明，我们的绝大多数用户并没有以这种方式使用 Periscope。

It wasn't a rear-facing camera experience where you were showing someone the world, the vast majority of people were using it to just talk to other people.

这不是一种向某人展示世界的后置摄像头体验，绝大多数人只是用它来与其他人交谈。

They were bored or they were lonely and they wanted to just have a conversation with other people.

他们感到无聊或孤独，只想与其他人交谈。

And it turns out video and audio is a very interesting way of doing that that allows for more nuance, more long-form conversation, more in-depth conversation, especially in contracts to Twitter, which has mechanics to really incentivize quick, snappy broadcasts that don't lead to much depth.

事实证明，视频和音频是一种非常有趣的方式，可以进行更细致、更长的对话、更深入的对话，尤其是在与 Twitter 的合同中，Twitter 的机制确实可以激励快速、活泼的广播，但不会带来太多深度。

And so when we shut down Periscope, we were like, man, we really need to enable a new form of conversation on Twitter that has some of those properties.

因此，当我们关闭 Periscope 时，我们就想，伙计，我们真的需要在 Twitter 上启用一种新的对话形式，它具有其中一些特性。

And so we had a team that was working on a project that we sort of code named Hydra.

因此，我们有一个团队正在开发一个项目，我们将其代号命名为 Hydra。

Hydra because there were multiple heads on this monster and those heads are participants in a conversation.

九头蛇因为这个怪物有多个头，而这些头是对话的参与者。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so well before Clubhouse was on the map, we had many different iterations of both video and audio only experiences that just didn't feel right, weren't working right, but we felt like we were onto something.

Kayvon Beykpour：早在 Clubhouse 出现之前，我们就对纯视频和音频体验进行了许多不同的迭代，但感觉不太对劲，工作不正常，但我们觉得我们正在做一些事情。

And when Clubhouse came on the map, it really re-centered, it put into focus a user experience that felt a lot more right and now give them complete credit for that.

当 Clubhouse 出现在地图上时，它确实重新定位，它把重点放在感觉更正确的用户体验上，现在给予他们完全的信任。

Paul and Rohan and that team did an exceptional job crafting an experience that really enabled that mechanic and that premise of enabling these longer form conversations to shine.

Paul 和 Rohan 以及该团队做了出色的工作，打造了一种体验，真正实现了该机制以及使这些较长形式的对话能够发挥作用的前提。

And so we did shamelessly seek inspiration from what they had done and what had worked and we put our own spin on it.

因此，我们厚颜无耻地从他们所做的事情和行之有效的事情中寻求灵感，并加入了我们自己的想法。

The execution of Spaces within Twitter I think has some similarities, but also really took advantage of the mechanics that you had available to you in Twitter.

我认为 Twitter 中 Spaces 的执行有一些相似之处，但也真正利用了 Twitter 中可用的机制。

It's a different product.

这是一个不同的产品。

And so we took the ideas that we felt were shortcuts to making the experience work and then we put our own spin on it.

因此，我们采取了我们认为是让体验发挥作用的捷径的想法，然后我们将自己的想法融入其中。

And so I have no problems with what we did there.

所以我对我们在那里所做的事情没有任何问题。

Kayvon Beykpour: And having had experienced the pain of not moving quickly enough with Vine from the outside and Periscope having lived that experience, we were not willing to not be the winner with this use case.

Kayvon Beykpour：经历过从外部使用 Vine 时行动不够快的痛苦，而 Periscope 也经历过这种经历，我们不愿意成为这个用例的赢家。

It is one of the projects I'm most proud of that we worked on at Twitter because we were very radical in our execution.

这是我在 Twitter 从事的最令我自豪的项目之一，因为我们的执行非常激进。

Hydra went from this tiny project that six people were working on that no one knew or care about to, we made Spaces as the number one priority of the company literally above any other project period.

Hydra 从这个只有 6 个人参与、没有人知道或关心的小项目开始，我们将 Spaces 作为公司的第一要务，几乎高于任何其他项目时期。

And we put a bunch of people on accelerating that product and making it come to life within Twitter.

我们派了一群人来加速该产品并使其在 Twitter 中变得栩栩如生。

And a lot of that was having felt the pain and burn of fucking this up with Vine and Periscope.

其中很大一部分是感受到了与 Vine 和 Periscope 搞砸的痛苦和灼烧感。

And so I'm really proud of our execution.

所以我对我们的执行力感到非常自豪。

And it was also really energizing.

这也确实让人充满活力。

I hope for the company to see that, wow, we pulled that off.

我希望公司能够看到，哇，我们成功了。

So yeah, it was good.

所以是的，这很好。

It was nice to have that full circle experience and also nice that, personally, I love that aspects of Periscope continue living on within Twitter.

能够获得这样的完整体验真是太好了，而且就我个人而言，我喜欢 Periscope 的各个方面继续在 Twitter 中得以延续。

Lenny Rachitsky: I did not know that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我不知道。

That is extremely interesting.

这非常有趣。

Speaking full circle, when I joined Clubhouse the first time, Paul was there introducing me to Clubhouse and exactly the way you described Periscope, so I feel like he drew some inspiration from you one step back.

说完整一点，当我第一次加入 Clubhouse 时，Paul 在那里向我介绍了 Clubhouse，并且完全按照你描述的 Periscope 的方式，所以我觉得他从你那里得到了一些灵​​感。

Kayvon Beykpour: Paul's amazing.

Kayvon Beykpour：保罗太棒了。

I feel like we're kindred spirits and I could see...

我觉得我们志趣相投，我看得出来……

It was one of the things I love about that team is just you could just feel how palpable their excitement was and their passion was for what they were building.

我喜欢这个团队的原因之一就是你可以感觉到他们的兴奋是多么明显，他们对他们所构建的东西充满热情。

Another universe we could have worked together more closely, but I think what they built was incredible and we took inspiration from it for sure.

我们可以更紧密地合作的另一个宇宙，但我认为他们建造的东西令人难以置信，我们肯定从中汲取了灵感。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you've built some of the most successful, most beloved, most used consumer products.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你们已经打造了一些最成功、最受欢迎、最常用的消费产品。

You continue to help other founders with their product.

您继续帮助其他创始人开发他们的产品。

I'm curious just if you have any advice for how to get better at building consumer products in terms of maybe craft a product, product sense.

我很好奇您是否对如何更好地构建消费产品（例如制作产品、产品感）有任何建议。

What have you learned about what it takes to build a successful consumer product?

关于打造成功的消费产品需要什么，您学到了什么？

Kayvon Beykpour: The best cheat codes for getting better at building products is just being a voracious user of products.

Kayvon Beykpour：要想更好地构建产品，最好的作弊码就是成为产品的贪婪用户。

And just trying new things, feeling out what works well, what doesn't, what you like, what you don't like.

尝试新事物，找出什么有效，什么无效，你喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。

There's just no replacement for that.

这是无可替代的。

It's such an effective way of honing your own taste and seeing what's superficial but not useful, what's ugly but useful, what's beautiful and useful.

这是一种磨练自己品味的有效方法，可以看到什么是肤浅但无用的，什么是丑陋但有用的，什么是美丽和有用的。

And you hone that by having practice and building muscle memory.

你可以通过练习和建立肌肉记忆来磨练这一点。

And so I think there's not a lot of science to it, I think.

所以我认为这没有太多科学依据。

I mean obviously science can help you become more effective at lots of things.

我的意思是显然科学可以帮助你在很多事情上变得更有效。

But I feel like I've just always been very curious about trying new things.

但我觉得我一直对尝试新事物非常好奇。

I'm a very hungry consumer of new things that people are building and I'm not quick to judge.

我非常渴望人们正在创造的新事物的消费者，而且我不会很快做出判断。

I'll try it even if it seems dumb because sometimes things that seem dumb at the beginning become very meaningful.

即使看起来很愚蠢我也会尝试，因为有时一开始看起来很愚蠢的事情变得非常有意义。

Kayvon Beykpour: And so it's always been a very helpful cheat code for me.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以这对我来说一直是一个非常有用的作弊代码。

And it's also just personally interesting.

这也只是个人有趣的事情。

Every tool, even the silly ones, people put their heart and soul into it and it's like an expression of themselves and it's always interesting to see that, to see people's creations and to learn from them and see what you like, what you don't like and how you might create something of your own that borrows from that.

每一个工具，即使是愚蠢的工具，人们都全身心地投入其中，它就像是他们自己的表达，看到这一点总是很有趣，看到人们的创作并向他们学习，看看你喜欢什么，你不喜欢什么，以及如何借用它来创造你自己的东西。

So if I could give people any advice through the lens of what's worked for me, it's that.

因此，如果我可以通过对我有用的方式向人们提供任何建议，那就是这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of trying new things, what are you up to these days?

Lenny Rachitsky：说到尝试新事物，你最近在忙什么？

Kayvon Beykpour: I'm building something in the consumer space.

Kayvon Beykpour：我正在消费领域打造一些东西。

I started the company with a couple of co-founders late last year.

去年年底，我与几位联合创始人创办了这家公司。

We're not quite ready to talk about it yet, but hopefully you'll be hearing from us pretty soon.

我们还没有准备好谈论它，但希望您很快就会收到我们的消息。

But it's really nice to be back building something again, particularly building something with a small team again after seeing the opposite extreme with a really large company.

但再次回来构建一些东西真的很高兴，特别是在看到一家真正的大公司的相反极端之后再次与一个小团队构建一些东西。

We've just talked about lots of large company things.

我们刚刚讨论了很多大公司的事情。

But yeah, hopefully you'll be hearing about it soon.

但是，是的，希望您很快就会听到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I think this is breaking news.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，我认为这是突发新闻。

So mysterious and exciting.

如此神秘又令人兴奋。

Kayvon, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Kayvon，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: No, no, I think we've covered quite a bit.

Kayvon Beykpour：不，不，我想我们已经讨论了很多。

Lenny Rachitsky: We have.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们有。

We have indeed.

我们确实有。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: I'm going to take a sip of water and then I'll be ready.

Kayvon Beykpour：我要喝一口水，然后就准备好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我们开始吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Kayvon Beykpour: I love reading sci-fi.

Kayvon Beykpour：我喜欢读科幻小说。

I just feel like sci-fi and mystery books are so healthy for jogging the imagination.

我只是觉得科幻小说和神秘书籍对于激发想象力非常有益。

And so some of my favorite books are by Neal Stephenson, I love Cryptonomicon.

我最喜欢的一些书是 Neal Stephenson 写的，我喜欢 Cryptonomicon。

I love Reamde.

我爱雷姆德。

I love a book called Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, which is more like a fantasy book, but I just love escaping reality and thinking about sci-fi, thinking about fantasy is just, it's helpful for the soul and helpful for the imagination.

我喜欢Patrick Rothfuss写的一本叫《风之名》的书，这本书更像是一本奇幻书，但我就是喜欢逃避现实，思考科幻，思考奇幻只是，它对灵魂有帮助，对想象力有帮助。

So those are some of my favorite reads because it helps me.

这些是我最喜欢的一些读物，因为它对我有帮助。

I feel like in some weird circular or wandering way, it helps me be more creative and imaginative.

我觉得以某种奇怪的循环或徘徊的方式，它帮助我变得更有创造力和想象力。

And by the way, that's true outside of reading as well.

顺便说一句，在阅读之外也是如此。

Some of the content that has shaped me, I feel like and help motivate my curiosity and a lot of things I built is sci-fi TV, right?

一些塑造了我的内容，我觉得并有助于激发我的好奇心，我制作的很多东西都是科幻电视，对吧？

Star Trek is incredible.

《星际迷航》令人难以置信。

We used to use as a metaphor for what Periscope was, we would think about Star Trek.

我们曾经用潜望镜来比喻，我们会想到《星际迷航》。

It'd be really cool to be able to teleport or get beamed somewhere else in the world and we're not smart enough to go build that device, but what's the closest approximation to that that we can realize through software?

能够传送或传送到世界其他地方真是太酷了，而且我们还没有足够聪明去建造那个设备，但是我们可以通过软件实现的最接近的近似值是多少？

Live streaming.

直播。

So I think that kind of literature or content has always been inspirational for me and I think getting that through books is really healthy.

所以我认为这种文学或内容一直对我很有启发，我认为通过书籍获得这些确实是健康的。

Lenny Rachitsky: On that note, is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that's inspired you in addition to Star Trek back in the day?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于这一点，除了当年的《星际迷航》之外，还有最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目给你带来启发吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: I mean the most recent movie I saw in theaters was Dune Two, and it was incredible.

Kayvon Beykpour：我的意思是我最近在电影院看的电影是《沙丘二号》，这真是令人难以置信。

Kayvon Beykpour: It's insane.

Kayvon Beykpour：这太疯狂了。

I also thought Oppenheimer was...

我还以为奥本海默...

I'm a huge Nolan fan.

我是诺兰的超级粉丝。

Oppenheimer was captivating.

奥本海默很迷人。

To have that level of high octane in a biopic consistently for two and a half hours is so hard to pull off.

在两个半小时的传记片中持续保持如此高的辛烷值是很难实现的。

And I thought it was exceptional.

我认为这很特别。

TV shows we're watching Tokyo Vice right now, which I really like.

我们现在正在看《东京风云》的电视节目，我非常喜欢。

I think one of the best TV shows I've watched recently, I mean Succession was amazing, but maybe I'll pull a less popular one, which is Devs also in the sci-fi realm.

我认为这是我最近看过的最好的电视节目之一，我的意思是《继承》太棒了，但也许我会拉一个不太受欢迎的节目，这也是科幻领域的《开发者》。

I think it was a Hulu show.

我认为这是一个 Hulu 节目。

But if you're interested in tech and AI and you want great acting in Nick Offerman, Devs is a pretty amazing show.

但如果你对科技和人工智能感兴趣，并且想要尼克·奥弗曼 (Nick Offerman) 的精彩表演，那么《Devs》是一部非常精彩的节目。

Lenny Rachitsky: I haven't heard of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我没听说过。

Have you seen 3 Body Problem yet, by the way?

顺便问一下，你看过《3 Body Problem》吗？

It feels like it's squarely in your wheelhouse.

感觉就像它就在你的驾驶室里一样。

Kayvon Beykpour: And it's funny, some content people are talking about it so much that I kind of want to not watch it now because I feel like it's really hard for shows to live up to the hype when you're mid-hype cycle.

Kayvon Beykpour：这很有趣，有些内容人们谈论得太多，以至于我现在不想看它，因为我觉得当你处于炒作周期中期时，节目很难达到炒作的效果。

So I haven't gone around to it yet, but it's definitely on my list.

所以我还没有考虑过它，但它肯定在我的清单上。

I know it's the type of show that I would love, but I just haven't gone.

我知道这是我喜欢的表演类型，但我就是没有去。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates you're hiring?

您有最喜欢问正在招聘的候选人的面试问题吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: The thing that I find is both very illustrative and helpful is just asking people to talk about something they worked on that failed and talk about something they built that succeeded as well.

Kayvon Beykpour：我发现的一件事既非常说明问题又很有帮助，那就是要求人们谈论他们所做的失败的事情以及他们所建立的成功的事情。

But I think you just learn a lot about self-reflection and their passions.

但我认为你只是学到了很多关于自我反思和他们的激情的知识。

But particularly their self-reflection.

但尤其是他们的自我反思。

If they talk through something that they really cared deeply about that didn't work and why didn't it work?

如果他们谈论的事情是他们真正关心的，但没有效果，为什么没有效果？

What were the takeaways?

收获是什么？

What did you learn from it?

你从中学到了什么？

I think it teaches you about how willing people are to take risks.

我认为它告诉你人们有多么愿意冒险。

It tells you have they experienced failure, what they learned from failure.

它告诉你他们是否经历过失败，他们从失败中学到了什么。

And so I think it's always, you just get to know someone really well.

所以我认为，你总是会真正了解一个人。

It ends up in a well-rounded understanding of a person, if you can dig into that.

如果你能深入研究的话，最终会对一个人有一个全面的了解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有没有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Kayvon Beykpour: I love Proplexity.

Kayvon Beykpour：我喜欢 Proplexity。

It's really interesting to me how Proplexity is a product that fits in your life and replaces a product that is so ingrained in people's behavior, which is using Google search for some set of use cases.

对我来说，Proplexity 是一款适合您生活的产品，并且取代了一种在人们行为中根深蒂固的产品，即使用 Google 搜索来处理某些用例，这对我来说真的很有趣。

And it's just really incredible to me how quickly Proplexity took that over.

对我来说，Proplexity 如此之快地接管了这一点真是令人难以置信。

It is very hard actually to rewire your muscle memory if you're used to using Google for searching for 15, 20 years or whatever.

如果你习惯使用 Google 搜索 15 年、20 年或其他时间，那么实际上要重新连接你的肌肉记忆是非常困难的。

It was just amazing to me how quickly my go-to became Proplexity.

让我惊讶的是，我的首选很快就变成了 Proplexity。

And frankly, it's one of the only non-development tool AI products that actually has retained.

坦白说，它是唯一真正保留下来的非开发工具人工智能产品之一。

A lot of people try and consumer AI products that just aren't really, haven't retained.

很多人尝试过消费人工智能产品，但实际上并没有保留下来。

But Proplexity is one that it's a daily driver for me.

但 Proplexity 是我每天的驱动力。

It's on my home screen and I love it.

它在我的主屏幕上，我喜欢它。

I'm very impressed by it.

我对此印象非常深刻。

Kayvon Beykpour: Yeah.

凯冯·贝克普尔：是的。

Here's a bias one, my wife is actually working on a startup called Particle, and they're the news experience with AI.

这是一个偏见，我的妻子实际上在一家名为 Particle 的初创公司工作，他们是人工智能的新闻体验。

And what I love about what they're doing is that for the first time they're like they've rethought what the form factor and the unit of content for news stories should be.

我喜欢他们所做的事情，因为他们第一次重新思考新闻报道的形式因素和内容单位应该是什么。

Articles are a failed format, is my belief, and certainly their belief.

文章是一种失败的格式，这是我的信念，当然也是他们的信念。

And so they've really come up with an elegant and engaging experience for understanding what's happening in the world in a way that's purely powered by AI.

因此，他们确实提供了一种优雅且引人入胜的体验，以纯粹由人工智能驱动的方式了解世界上正在发生的事情。

And it's awesome.

这太棒了。

Again, hashtag biased husband, but it's amazing.

再说一遍，标签对丈夫有偏见，但这真是太棒了。

It's in beta right now.

目前正处于测试阶段。

You can sign up on the wait list.

您可以在等候名单上注册。

The URL is particlenews.ai.

网址是articlenews.ai。

They're letting people in on beta.

他们让人们参与测试版。

If you sign up, use coupon code hashtag #KayvonLenny.

如果您注册，请使用优惠券代码标签#KayvonLenny。

That's not a real code.

那不是真正的代码。

But yeah, so that's amazing.

但是，是的，这太棒了。

So that would be my second pick.

所以这将是我的第二选择。

Kayvon Beykpour: I'll give you a non-software one, which is actually a board game that I ran into, that I was gifted actually for my birthday.

Kayvon Beykpour：我会给你一个非软件的游戏，它实际上是我遇到的一款棋盘游戏，实际上是我生日时收到的礼物。

And it's called Crokinole.

它的名字叫克罗基诺尔。

Have you heard of this game called Crokinole?

您听说过这款名为 Crokinole 的游戏吗？

Kayvon Beykpour: So Crokinole is Canadian.

Kayvon Beykpour：所以 Crokinole 是加拿大人。

I think it's a Canadian board game and it's amazing to me because I've never seen a game be captivating to all age ranges.

我认为这是一款加拿大棋盘游戏，这对我来说很神奇，因为我从未见过一款游戏能够吸引所有年龄段的人。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I play with my friends.

我和我的朋友们一起玩。

My parents over Christmas were obsessed with this game.

圣诞节期间我的父母对这款游戏着迷。

My daughter loves.

我女儿很喜欢。

It's a physical game.

这是一场体力游戏。

You flick a puck, like shuffleboard style, but miniaturized with a totally different set of mechanics.

你像沙狐球一样轻弹冰球，但通过一套完全不同的机制进行了小型化。

And it was just like seeing this game captivate, people of all age ranges was mind-blowing to me and it's really fun.

就像看到这个游戏一样着迷，所有年龄段的人都让我兴奋不已，而且真的很有趣。

So maybe a curveball answer for you there, but I think those are some of the products that I've been really enjoying and appreciating lately.

因此，也许对您来说这是一个曲线球答案，但我认为这些是我最近非常喜欢和欣赏的一些产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: These are awesome answers.

Lenny Rachitsky：这些都是很棒的答案。

What's the name of that game again?

那个游戏又叫什么名字？

I'm going to-

我要去-

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I don't don't know how to spell it, but I'm sure Google will help me figure it out.

我不知道如何拼写，但我确信 Google 会帮助我弄清楚。

We'll link to it in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love the K in there.

我喜欢里面的K。

That makes it really fun.

这真的很有趣。

And by the way, I think it's also Particle.news looking at it.

顺便说一句，我认为 Particle.news 也在关注它。

It's so cool.

太酷了。

It's basically bullet points of news items and then it links to all the articles that have written about it.

它基本上是新闻项目的要点，然后链接到所有有关它的文章。

So it just summarizes, here's the things you need to know and it's beautiful.

所以它只是总结一下，这是你需要知道的事情，而且很漂亮。

Kayvon Beykpour: Yeah, basically they consume and aggregate everything that's happening in the world by among other things, ingesting articles and then crafting these story modules through them that are summarized by AI.

Kayvon Beykpour：是的，基本上他们通过摄取文章，然后通过人工智能总结的故事模块来消费和聚合世界上发生的一切。

And then they let you actually interrogate the news and ask questions.

然后他们让你真正询问新闻并提出问题。

So leveraging LLMs and tool calls, it's able to actually help you understand what's happening in the world.

因此，利用法学硕士和工具调用，它能够真正帮助您了解世界上正在发生的事情。

And they also are building a social layer as well.

他们也在建立一个社交层。

So it was very cool.

所以这非常酷。

I'll definitely get you in the beta.

我一定会让你进入测试版。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is actually amazing timing, because I was a huge fan of Artifact, the news app, and they're going away, so this is the next news app, so thanks for sharing that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是一个惊人的时机，因为我是新闻应用程序 Artifact 的超级粉丝，他们即将消失，所以这是下一个新闻应用程序，所以感谢分享。

Okay, two more questions.

好吧，还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with people that you find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾或与您认为对工作或生活有用的人分享？

Kayvon Beykpour: Something that definitely shaped my work ethic and how I work that came from my first boss actually.

Kayvon Beykpour：实际上，我的第一任老板确实塑造了我的职业道德和工作方式。

When I was 14, I had a summer job basically replacing and doing maintenance on fire extinguishers.

当我 14 岁的时候，我有一份暑期工作，主要是更换和维护灭火器。

So I would drive into San Francisco, my boss would pick me up in his truck, we'd go to big commercial buildings, hospitals, high rises, and we would take all the fire extinguishers in the building, hundreds of them to the garage, empty them, fill them, tag them, inspect them.

所以我会开车去旧金山，我的老板会开卡车来接我，我们会去大型商业建筑、医院、高层建筑，我们会把大楼里的所有灭火器，数百个带到车库，清空它们，填充它们，给它们贴上标签，检查它们。

And that was my first job.

那是我的第一份工作。

And I don't even remember if I was getting paid.

我什至不记得我是否得到报酬。

I was probably getting paid very small amount, but it was just first work experience.

我的工资可能很少，但这只是第一次工作经历。

And I remember there was this moment that I had finished dealing with my extinguishers and I was just sitting in his truck twiddling my thumbs doing nothing.

我记得有那么一刻，我处理完灭火器，只是坐在他的卡车里，摆弄拇指什么也不做。

And my boss came up to me and was like, when you've got nothing to do, sweep never sit around.

我的老板走过来对我说，当你无事可做时，扫地，不要闲坐着。

Kayvon Beykpour: And it was so funny, it was just very tiny moment, but I've never ever forgotten that.

Kayvon Beykpour：这太有趣了，这只是一个非常小的时刻，但我永远不会忘记这一点。

When you got nothing to do sweep.

当你无事可做的时候扫扫。

And it had such a profound impact on my work ethic of there's always something you can be doing to move the ball forward and being productive and being impactful.

它对我的职业道德产生了深远的影响，我总能做一些事情来推动事情向前发展，变得富有成效和有影响力。

And I'm so grateful that Fred, my boss, had that moment with me.

我非常感激我的老板弗雷德和我一起度过了那一刻。

It was like, I don't even think he understands how impactful that was, but it felt so much a life motto, but it definitely stuck with me and shaped how I work.

就像，我什至认为他不明白这有多大的影响力，但这感觉就像是一个人生座右铭，但它确实让我难以忘怀，并塑造了我的工作方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you shared that story.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你分享了这个故事。

I found that quote and story in GQ Magazine turns out is where you talked about this and I was going to ask about it and I didn't and I'm glad you shared it because I love it.

我发现《GQ》杂志上的引言和故事就是你谈论这个的地方，我本来想问这个问题，但我没有，我很高兴你分享了它，因为我喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question, we're going to go full circle.

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，我们要回到原点。

Scott Belsky, you're friends with him.

斯科特·贝尔斯基，你是他的朋友。

What's something people would be surprised about or don't know about Scott, that might be interesting?

关于斯科特，人们会感到惊讶或不知道的事情是什么，这可能很有趣？

Kayvon Beykpour: Well, I'll tell you one funny story and then I'll first tell you something I love about Scott.

Kayvon Beykpour：好吧，我会告诉你一个有趣的故事，然后我会首先告诉你一些我喜欢斯科特的事情。

Scott is a great example of someone who I think has driven immense cultural change at a massive, legendary company in Adobe obviously.

我认为 Scott 是一个很好的例子，他在 Adob​​e 等一家传奇的大型公司推动了巨大的文化变革。

But the number of transformations that Scott oversaw and led and contributed to at Adobe are incredible.

但 Scott 在 Adob​​e 监督、领导和贡献的转型数量令人难以置信。

And I'm sure having a fraction of this experience at Twitter, I can appreciate how difficult and challenging and rewarding that was, right?

我确信在 Twitter 上有过一段这样的经历，我可以体会到那是多么困难、充满挑战和回报，对吧？

Going from package software to cloud, going from non-AI to AI, going from discrete tools to an integrated suite that worked really elegantly together.

从软件包到云，从非人工智能到人工智能，从离散工具到真正优雅地协同工作的集成套件。

I think Scott oversaw a lot of this stuff and it's pretty incredible to see that transformation have been so successful at Adobe.

我认为 Scott 监督了很多这样的事情，看到 Adob​​e 的转型如此成功真是令人难以置信。

So I love that.

所以我喜欢这样。

Kayvon Beykpour: I guess a funny story about Scott that people might not know, I consider him to have been the first Periscoper.

Kayvon Beykpour：我猜想有一个关于斯科特的有趣故事，人们可能不知道，我认为他是第一个潜望镜。

So Scott believed in Periscope before it was Periscope, before we had turned it into live video, we had a previous version of our beta that was static photo sharing, same vision, same concept, but the product was called Bounty.

所以斯科特在 Periscope 出现之前就相信了 Periscope，在我们把它变成实时视频之前，我们有一个之前的测试版，它是静态照片共享，相同的愿景，相同的概念，但该产品称为 Bounty。

And it was like you put a pin somewhere in the world like the Tokyo fish market and someone would respond with a photo of what it looked like there.

这就像你在世界上的某个地方（比如东京鱼市）放置一个别针，有人会用一张那里的照片来回应。

Kayvon Beykpour: Our vision was still to help you see through someone else's eyes, but the first manifestation was really static and had this marketplace dynamic, and it took us a while to get to the point where we were like, press a button, go live and have it be live video because by definition it's real time rather than static.

Kayvon Beykpour：我们的愿景仍然是帮助您通过别人的眼睛看问题，但第一个表现形式实际上是静态的，并且市场充满活力，我们花了一段时间才达到这样的程度，按下按钮，上线并使其成为实时视频，因为根据定义，它是实时的而不是静态的。

Kayvon Beykpour: Anyways, before we built any of that, when we were playing with the idea and Scott was encouraging us to go in this direction, I remember probably the second time I ever met Scott, we did it FaceTime and he was at the TED conference, I want to say it was in Vancouver, and just to illustrate how cool it would be when he accepted the FaceTime and he's like, "Cool, and I'm going to take you on a Periscope." And he flipped this camera and started walking around the TED conference and basically pretending like he was prototyping the product, but using FaceTime.

Kayvon Beykpour：无论如何，在我们建立任何一个之前，当我们正在考虑这个想法并且斯科特鼓励我们朝这个方向前进时，我记得可能是我第二次见到斯科特时，我们通过 FaceTime 进行了交谈，他参加了 TED 会议，我想说那是在温哥华，只是为​​了说明当他接受 FaceTime 时会有多酷，他说，“酷，我要带你去潜望镜。”他翻转相机，开始在 TED 会议上走来走去，基本上假装自己正在制作产品原型，但使用的是 FaceTime。

And it was such an amazing experience because having an investor essentially encourage you down a product direction by showing rather than telling, it was such a great encapsulation of how supportive Scott was and inspiring Scott was as one of our cheerleaders.

这是一次非常棒的经历，因为投资者本质上是通过展示而不是讲述来鼓励你确定产品方向，这很好地体现了斯科特作为我们的啦啦队员之一所给予的支持和鼓舞。

And I respect him so much for everything he did to help Periscope make happen, and also for betting on us, because he was one of the first people who said yes to investing.

我非常尊重他为帮助 Periscope 所做的一切，也因为他对我们的投资，因为他是第一批对投资说“是”的人之一。

He didn't know us, he just believed in us.

他不认识我们，他只是相信我们。

And that helped everything else come together.

这有助于其他一切整合在一起。

And yeah, he's amazing.

是的，他太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: We've got to get him back on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们必须让他重返播客。

The story reminds me of your Elon's story, where he FaceTimed you, and it also makes me think about your lesson of building consumer products, just using it, being obsessed with it, Scott, just like, here's what it could look like.

这个故事让我想起了埃隆的故事，他在视频中与你进行了视频通话，这也让我想起了你构建消费产品的教训，只是使用它，痴迷于它，斯科特，就像，这就是它的样子。

And actually using the product, not just talking about.

并且实际使用该产品，而不仅仅是说说而已。

Kayvon Beykpour: Yeah, he's a great example of that as well.

Kayvon Beykpour：是的，他也是一个很好的例子。

He's definitely a gracious user of all tools and products, and that's why he has really great, really great product sense.

他绝对是所有工具和产品的慷慨用户，这就是为什么他具有非常非常好的产品意识。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kayvon, you're amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：Kayvon，你太棒了。

This was so freaking fascinating.

这真是太令人着迷了。

There's so many nuggets here.

这里有很多金块。

Can't wait for folks to hear this.

迫不及待地想让人们听到这个消息。

Lenny Rachitsky: Two final questions.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and learn more and maybe follow up on anything if there's things you want to follow up on potentially?

如果人们想要联系并了解更多信息，并且如果您有可能想要跟进的事情，那么他们可以在哪里找到您？

And then, how can listeners be useful to you?

那么，听众如何对你有用呢？

Kayvon Beykpour: People can find me on Twitter/X/whatever we're calling it these days.

Kayvon Beykpour：人们可以在 Twitter/X/无论我们现在怎么称呼它。

My handle is @kayvz, K-A-Y-V-Z.

我的昵称是@kayvz，K-A-Y-V-Z。

And yeah, if you're of this podcast and you're working on something cool and you need some help or advice or you're looking for an angel investor, don't hesitate to reach out and would love to try what you're building.

是的，如果你是这个播客的一员，并且你正在做一些很酷的事情，并且需要一些帮助或建议，或者你正在寻找天使投资人，请毫不犹豫地与我们联系，并且很乐意尝试你正在构建的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And also check out Particle.news.

还可以查看 Particle.news。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

All right, Kayvon, thank you so much for being here.

好的，Kayvon，非常感谢你来到这里。

Kayvon Beykpour: Thanks Lenny.

Kayvon Beykpour：谢谢莱尼。

Great to meet you.

很高兴认识你。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。