Building beautiful products with Stripe’s Head of Design | Katie Dill (Stripe, Airbnb, Lyft)

Katie Dill: The use of the word beauty in books that have been digitized by Google has decreased, like pretty dramatically.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：在谷歌数字化的书籍中，“美丽”这个词的使用已经大幅减少。

And it's aligned with this idea of, "Well, functionality is king.

它与“嗯，功能为王”这一理念是一致的。

Functionality is what matters." As if people think about functionality and beauty as like two opposite things.

功能性才是最重要的。”就好像人们将功能性和美观视为两个相反的事物一样。

No, they're not two opposite things.

不，它们不是两个相反的东西。

Functionality is important.

功能性很重要。

And actually beauty enhances functionality because it does make things easier to use, more approachable, more compelling to use.

事实上，美感增强了功能，因为它确实让东西更容易使用、更平易近人、更引人注目。

Katie Dill: And the other piece of it that is not talked about in business as often is just the importance of how people feel.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：商业中不经常谈论的另一件事是人们感受的重要性。

Things that are more beautiful, increase trust.

更美丽的事物会增加信任。

You see that we've put painstaking detail into this, and we care about the details of how something works, and that gives you assurance that we care about other details that you can't see too.

您会看到，我们在这方面投入了大量的细节，我们关心某些东西如何工作的细节，这让您确信我们也关心您看不到的其他细节。

Lenny: Today my guest is Katie Dill.

莱尼：今天我的客人是凯蒂·迪尔。

Katie is Head of Design at Stripe, where she oversees product design, brand and marketing creative, web presence, user research, content strategy, and design ops.

Katie 是 Stripe 的设计主管，负责监督产品设计、品牌和营销创意、网络形象、用户研究、内容策略和设计运营。

Katie was previously Head of Design at Lyft, and Head of Experience Design at Airbnb.

Katie 曾担任 Lyft 的设计主管和 Airbnb 的体验设计主管。

She's built and led design teams at three different hypergrowth companies, seen the teams scale at least 10x, and two of which, Airbnb and Stripe, are some of the biggest and fastest growing companies in the world and also the best designed products.

她在三个不同的高速增长公司建立并领导了设计团队，团队规模至少扩大了 10 倍，其中 Airbnb 和 Stripe 两家公司是世界上最大、发展最快的公司，也是设计最好的产品。

Lenny: In our conversation Katie shares stories of trials and tribulations of leading large design teams, processes she's put in place for operationalizing quality, how she thinks about quality and beauty very practically, how design can directly lead to growth, and examples of this that led to a big lift in conversion at Stripe, plus a math formula she uses to increase team performance, how she suggests organizing your design and product teams, what to look for in design hires, and so much more.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，Katie 分享了领导大型设计团队的考验和磨难的故事、她为实施质量而制定的流程、她如何非常实际地思考质量和美观、设计如何直接带来增长、以及导致 Stripe 转化率大幅提升的例子，以及她用来提高团队绩效的数学公式、她如何建议组织设计和产品团队、在设计招聘中寻找什么，等等。

I was really lucky to get to work with Katie while at Airbnb, and I am so excited to have her on this podcast.

我非常幸运能够在 Airbnb 与凯蒂一起工作，我很高兴她能加入这个播客。

With that, I bring you Katie Dill after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了凯蒂·迪尔 (Katie Dill)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career, and something that worked really well for me a few years ago, is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just kind of gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一，也是几年前对我来说非常有效的方法，就是创建一个个人董事会，一个值得信赖的同行小组，在这里你可以讨论你所面临的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查你对工作、职业和生活的看法。

Lenny: This has been a big trajectory changer for me.

莱尼：这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变。

But it's hard to build this trusted group.

但建立这个值得信赖的群体是很困难的。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly-vetted, private, supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的、私密的、支持性的同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls, leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们可以齐心协力，更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响。

Lenny: Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

Lenny：在世界一流的编程和便利的指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Lenny: Jump the growing waitlist of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

Lenny：访问 sidebar.com/lenny 以了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

您爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与您想象的有些不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers, and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有提出伟大的想法、与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

Lenny: A better way is possible.

莱尼：可能有更好的方法。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

With Jira Product Discovery you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

Lenny: And it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working, so true collaboration is finally possible.

Lenny：这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，而不仅仅是工程师。

Sales, Support, Leadership, even Greg from Finance, anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

销售、支持、领导，甚至是财务部门的 Greg，任何您想要的人都可以免费在 Jira Product Discovery 中贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch.

没有捕获。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Lenny: Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never-ending alignment efforts.

Lenny：告别电子表格和永无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Katie, thank you so much for being here.

凯蒂，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Katie Dill: Thanks for having me.

凯蒂·迪尔：谢谢你邀请我。

Good to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

So as we were preparing for this podcast, you hinted at a story that you had from your time at Airbnb where the design team staged an intervention with you which I had no idea about.

因此，当我们准备这个播客时，您暗示了您在 Airbnb 时听到的一个故事，当时设计团队对您进行了干预，但我对此一无所知。

Because I was there during this time and I did not know this was happening.

因为我当时就在那儿，我不知道发生了这种事。

I am so curious to hear the story.

我很好奇想听这个故事。

Can you share what happened?

你能分享一下发生了什么吗？

Katie Dill: Ah, starting with the easy questions I see.

凯蒂·迪尔：啊，从我看到的简单问题开始。

All right.

好的。

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

No, I'm happy to talk about it because, frankly, it was the biggest learning experience of my leadership career, or at least that happened in one moment.

不，我很高兴谈论它，因为坦率地说，这是我领导生涯中最重要的学习经历，或者至少是在某一时刻发生的。

It happened in my early days at Airbnb.

这发生在我刚加入 Airbnb 的时候。

I was hired to take on the Design Organization, or the Experience Design Organization.

我受聘负责设计组织或体验设计组织。

That's basically the Product Design team, which was 10 people at the time.

这基本上就是产品设计团队，当时有 10 人。

They had been reporting directly to one of the founders and they were going to start reporting to me.

他们一直直接向其中一位创始人汇报，他们将开始向我汇报。

Katie Dill: During my interview process I learned a lot about what was working, and what wasn't working, and some of the trials and tribulations with the Design Organization and its collaboration with others.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：在采访过程中，我了解了很多关于什么是有效的、什么是无效的，以及与设计组织及其与其他组织的合作的一些考验和磨难。

So it seemed like there was room for improvement in how Engineering, and Product Management, and Design all worked together.

因此，工程、产品管理和设计的协同工作方式似乎还有改进的空间。

There was also really low engagement scores in the Design team.

设计团队的参与度也很低。

Katie Dill: So I kind of came in ready to go and excited to try to help make some change based on all the things that I had learned from various leaders and people across the company.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：所以我进来时就已经做好了出发的准备，并且很高兴能够根据我从公司各个领导和员工那里学到的所有知识来帮助做出一些改变。

I came in swinging, ready to go.

我摇摇晃晃地进来，准备出发。

And then about a month into my time there, I got a meeting on my calendar, Thursday 8:30 AM, it was an hour and a half with half of the Design team, so that was five people, and our HR partner.

然后大约一个月后，我在日历上安排了一次会议，周四上午 8:30，会议持续了一个半小时，设计团队的一半成员参加了会议，总共有五个人，还有我们的人力资源合作伙伴。

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

And I remember this so vividly.

我对这件事记忆犹新。

I remember walking into the office, and all the rooms in Airbnb's office are very unique spaces that look like Airbnb's.

我记得走进办公室，Airbnb办公室的所有房间都是非常独特的空间，看起来像Airbnb的。

But of course this was the one room with all white walls and just a gray flat rectangle table.

当然，这是一间全白墙壁和一张灰色扁平长方形桌子的房间。

I walked into the room and there were five of them seated around the table.

我走进房间，看到他们五个人围坐在桌子旁。

They had a pack of papers in front of them and they went on taking turns quietly reading from the papers all the things that they saw that I was doing wrong and all the things that they didn't like about me.

他们面前放着一叠文件，他们继续轮流安静地从文件中读出他们认为我做错的所有事情以及他们不喜欢我的所有事情。

Katie Dill: It was a really hard moment there.

凯蒂·迪尔：那是一个非常艰难的时刻。

I went through all the usual kind of like stages of grief when one hears feedback, which is just like an immediate want to respond to be like, "Yeah." Like, "Well there was a good reason for that." And like, "That's not how it actually was." And, "This is why I did that." But luckily, thank goodness I had the sense to just listen and not respond in that way.

当人们听到反馈时，我经历了所有常见的悲伤阶段，就像立即想要回应“是的”。就像，“嗯，这是有充分理由的。”就像，“事实并非如此。”并且，“这就是我这样做的原因。”但幸运的是，谢天谢地，我有意识只是倾听，而不是那样回应。

I mean, clearly what they were telling me is that that was one of the things that was missing.

我的意思是，显然他们告诉我的是，这是缺失的事情之一。

Katie Dill: So I heard them out and took it all in.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以我听了他们的意见并接受了一切。

And regardless of each individual saying, what was very clear was that the missing piece, the theme that was across all of that, is that I hadn't earned their trust.

不管每个人怎么说，很明显的是，缺失的部分，贯穿所有这一切的主题，是我没有赢得他们的信任。

So whether how right or how wrong what I was doing was, is the key piece is that I wasn't bringing the team along with me.

因此，无论我所做的事情有多对或多错，关键在于我没有带领团队与我同行。

They had no idea that they could trust in what I was trying to build, and what I was trying to shape, and that I cared about them, and that I had their best interests and shared goals at heart.

他们不知道他们可以相信我正在努力建立的东西，我正在努力塑造的东西，并且我关心他们，并且我把他们的最大利益和共同目标放在心上。

And that was absolutely my fault.

这绝对是我的错。

Katie Dill: In retrospect, as hard as that was, I'm very grateful and very amazed that they could come together and share that with me.

凯蒂·迪尔：回想起来，尽管那很艰难，但我非常感激也非常惊讶他们能聚在一起与我分享这些。

It can be hard to bring feedback forward like that.

像这样提出反馈可能很困难。

So it was an extremely valuable learning experience.

所以这是一次非常宝贵的学习经历。

I took from that to then immediately shift how I was operating.

我从中吸取了教训，然后立即改变了我的运作方式。

And really a key part in building trust was to listen, to hear out what the individuals on the team were setting out to do, what they cared about, what motivated them.

建立信任的真正关键部分是倾听，了解团队中的个人打算做什么、他们关心什么、是什么激励他们。

Katie Dill: So I started to make pretty fast change and still moving in the direction that was necessary for the org to make the really large impact in how we were operating, but bringing folks along with me.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：所以我开始做出相当快的改变，并且仍然朝着组织所必需的方向前进，以便对我们的运营方式产生真正的巨大影响，但让人们和我一起。

You can inflict change on people, but if you want to do it with them trust is the key element there.

你可以给人们带来改变，但如果你想和他们一起改变，信任就是关键因素。

And then a couple months later, we had the best engagement scores in the company.

几个月后，我们的敬业度得分成为全公司最高的。

Katie Dill: So it did objectively improve the situation, and since then taken that on into next steps in other companies that I've joined.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：所以它确实客观地改善了情况，从那时起，我加入的其他公司就将其带入了后续步骤。

And just think about instead of coming in swinging, come in listening, so that you can really set out to make change that actually has true, positive impact on the folks around you and that you bring along with you.

想想，不要摇摆不定，而是要倾听，这样你才能真正着手做出改变，对你周围的人和你身边的人产生真正的、积极的影响。

Lenny: Wow, I was there during this.

莱尼：哇，这期间我就在场。

I did not know this was happening.

我不知道发生了这种事。

Is this the time when all the designers were all always in one room together in Thayer?

这是塞耶所有设计师总是挤在一个房间里的时候吗？

Is that that period?

是那个时期吗？

Katie Dill: Before I got there I think there was a little of like, "Design is just going to sit with Design and not necessarily work in close proximity with engineers and product managers, et cetera." And one of the things that I believe as a necessary part of building a high-functioning organization is that, one, building together is important.

Katie Dill：在我到达那里之前，我认为有一点类似，“设计只是与设计坐在一起，不一定与工程师和产品经理等密切合作。”我认为，作为建立一个高效组织的必要组成部分，一件事是，第一，共同建设很重要。

So having engineers, and product managers, and designers be together, have shared goals, and align on that and be able to just look over each other's shoulder and talk about things, is important.

因此，让工程师、产品经理和设计师在一起，拥有共同的目标，并在此基础上保持一致，能够互相关心并讨论问题，这一点很重要。

So sitting together is important.

所以坐在一起很重要。

Katie Dill: However, that Thayer thing that you're talking about actually was like something that I was very devoted to, which is bringing Design together at key moments multiple times throughout the week to also build a community in Design.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：然而，你所说的塞耶（Thayer）的事情实际上就像我非常致力于的事情一样，它在一周的关键时刻多次将设计聚集在一起，同时也建立了一个设计社区。

Like Joebot at Airbnb once said, "It's like, well, what T-shirt do you wear?

就像 Airbnb 的 Joebot 曾经说过的那样，“这就像，你穿什么 T 恤？

What team are you on?" And I was like, "You have two T-shirts.

你是哪个队的？”我当时想，“你有两件 T 恤。

You have the Design T-shirt and you have the Marketplace T-shirt, or whatever cross-disciplinary team that you work on.

你有设计 T 恤，也有市场 T 恤，或者你所在的任何跨学科团队。

Because both are really important communities to build for slightly different reasons." So yeah, Thayer was a good spot for that.

因为两者都是非常重要的社区，但其建设原因略有不同。”所以，是的，塞耶是一个很好的选择。

Lenny: Zooming out a little bit, I think the elephant in the room a lot of times with design is this idea that I'd say most PMs, most founders, intellectually understand the value of design, understand the value of high quality.

Lenny：稍微缩小一点，我认为设计中很多时候房间里的大象就是这个想法，我想说大多数产品经理、大多数创始人都理智地理解设计的价值，理解高质量的价值。

But day-to-day it's often not actually prioritized versus new features, new product launches, partly because the ROI is just really unclear.

但在日常工作中，它通常并没有真正优先考虑新功能、新产品的发布，部分原因是投资回报率确实不清楚。

Lenny: If we spend another month making this more awesome and making this even more amazing design-wise, experience-wise, what is that going to get us?

莱尼：如果我们再花一个月的时间让这个变得更棒，让这个设计、体验变得更加令人惊叹，这会给我们带来什么？

Clearly, at Airbnb design was highly prioritized.

显然，在 Airbnb，设计是高度优先的。

At Stripe, from an outsider's perspective, it clearly is.

在 Stripe，从局外人的角度来看，显然是这样。

I'm just curious what you've learned about how to make the case for the ROI of design and just how Stripe, and Airbnb, and Lyft have done that.

我只是好奇你学到了什么关于如何证明设计投资回报率的案例，以及 Stripe、Airbnb 和 Lyft 是如何做到这一点的。

Katie Dill: It's a great question, and I think this is like an age-old question that I don't know if will ever go away, and probably because the quality bar keeps evolving, keeps rising.

凯蒂·迪尔：这是一个很好的问题，我认为这就像一个古老的问题，我不知道它是否会消失，可能是因为质量标准不断发展、不断提高。

But I think first to kind of level set before we dive into that I would say that there are levels of quality.

但我认为，在我们深入探讨之前，首先要设定一个水平，我想说质量是有水平的。

There is the, does the thing work?

还有，这东西有用吗？

Does it provide some sort of value proposition?

它提供某种价值主张吗？

It like executes on its job.

它喜欢执行它的工作。

That's baseline quality.

这是基线质量。

Katie Dill: Next is that, does it do it exceedingly well?

凯蒂·迪尔：接下来是，它做得非常好吗？

Is it error-free?

是否没有错误？

Actually, maybe that's not even exceedingly well but just error-free and it actually works in a well-rounded way.

事实上，也许这并不是非常好，但只是没有错误，而且它实际上以一种全面的方式工作。

Then beyond that, like level three, level four, level five, does it exceed expectations and it does something that you weren't even seeking for as a user?

除此之外，比如三级、四级、五级，它是否超出了预期，并且做了一些您作为用户根本没有寻求过的事情？

And I do think the levels of quality should be based on user expectations.

我确实认为质量水平应该基于用户的期望。

I don't believe that there are disciplines that just don't care about quality.

我不相信存在不关心质量的学科。

Katie Dill: I think it's more about that prioritization and kind of like what you talked about is just like, is it really worth getting something to that exceedingly well state or is it, what about just like another feature and being seduced by the chase of another feature versus actually taking your features to a level of being great?

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我认为这更多的是关于优先级，有点像你所说的那样，是否真的值得让某些东西达到非常好的状态，或者是，就像另一个功能并被另一个功能的追逐所诱惑，而不是真正将你的功能提升到一个伟大的水平？

That is hard.

那很难。

And I get it when you look at your user base and they're all shouting from the rooftops for this additional feature.

当你看看你的用户群时，我就明白了，他们都在屋顶上大声呼喊这个附加功能。

Katie Dill: Of course you're going to want to prioritize that over something they never asked for.

凯蒂·迪尔：当然，你会想优先考虑这一点，而不是他们从未要求过的事情。

Then the other thing would be you end up with like you've got three things that you could possibly do to make perhaps the next stage in your product development.

然后另一件事是你最终会得到三件事，你可以做这三件事来进入产品开发的下一阶段。

Two of them you know you can measure and they're going to line up to business goals, and one of them you can't.

其中两个您知道可以衡量，并且它们将符合业务目标，而其中一个您不能衡量。

Katie Dill: Of course that's going to be enchanting to want to go after the things that you can actually measure, you know that they're going to have that impact.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：当然，想要追求那些你可以实际测量的东西会很迷人，你知道它们会产生这种影响。

But the companies that know that quality is non-negotiable, it is a long-term necessary aspect of what they build, don't play that numbers game.

但那些知道质量是不容谈判的公司，这是他们所构建的产品的长期必要方面，不会玩数字游戏。

Or what they do is they recognize that it is absolutely functionality, but the quality of those features that is actually going to get to great usability, desirability in their product.

或者他们所做的是他们认识到这绝对是功能，但这些功能的质量实际上会在他们的产品中获得巨大的可用性和需求。

Katie Dill: Actually, I think it's kind of like an analogy for going to the gym or working out.

凯蒂·迪尔：实际上，我认为这有点像去健身房或锻炼。

I don't know about you, but literally every time I think to do this, there's a fight in my head of like, "Ah, do I really need to work out today?

我不了解你的情况，但实际上，每次我想到这样做时，我的脑海里就会出现这样的斗争：“啊，我今天真的需要锻炼吗？

Is this one day going to give me six-pack abs?" Like, "Of course not." So like, "Why go?

有一天我会拥有六块腹肌吗？”就像，“当然不是。”就像，“为什么要去？

Why not just skip it today?" But of course then at some point, hopefully, I realize that it's like, "Well, if I skip it today, what's to stop me from skipping it another day?"

为什么今天不跳过呢？”但当然，在某个时候，我希望我意识到，“好吧，如果我今天跳过它，有什么可以阻止我改天跳过它呢？”

Katie Dill: And really in the belief of that these things, it really does add up to a better outcome in the end, and so a longer, healthier life.

凯蒂·迪尔：我真的相信这些事情最终确实会带来更好的结果，从而带来更长寿、更健康的生活。

So hopefully I can get myself together and go to the gym.

所以希望我能振作起来去健身房。

I do think some of the best companies on the planet think that way.

我确实认为世界上一些最好的公司也是这么想的。

I recognize that customers don't always ask for it.

我认识到客户并不总是要求这样做。

I mean, you might see it in support cases for example.

我的意思是，例如，您可能会在支持案例中看到它。

Like clearly they don't know how to use this next step and that is probably a quality issue and that they might be asking for in more improved features.

显然，他们不知道如何使用下一步，这可能是一个质量问题，他们可能会要求更多改进的功能。

Katie Dill: But some of the levels of quality, the level two, and three, and four, you might not get direct asked for.

凯蒂·迪尔：但是某些质量级别，二级、三级和四级，您可能不会直接要求。

But I guess I'll give you another analogy.

但我想我会给你另一个类比。

If you don't have competition, that's fine.

如果没有竞争，那也没关系。

Right?

正确的？

If you think about the first car, I am sure that wheel was really hard to turn, and I'm sure that seat was not comfortable, and you could have any color you want as long as it's black.

如果你想想第一辆车，我确信车轮真的很难转动，而且我确信座椅不舒服，而且你可以选择任何你想要的颜色，只要它是黑色的。

Right?

正确的？

But there was no competition.

但没有竞争。

The competition was a horse, so no big deal.

比赛的是一匹马，所以没什么大不了的。

For cars today it's like the stitching, the choice of the leather, the sound of the door.

对于今天的汽车来说，这就像缝线、皮革的选择、车门的声音。

Katie Dill: These distinguish a, hmm, okay car to a high-end special car with higher value.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：这些将嗯，普通车与价值更高的高端特种车区分开来。

This is very much by understanding how the details matter and how execution of quality will take it to the next level.

这在很大程度上取决于了解细节的重要性以及质量的执行如何将其提升到一个新的水平。

Lastly, I'll just say that I know there's this saying of it's growth versus quality, but quality is growth.

最后，我只想说，我知道有这样一种说法：增长与质量，但质量就是增长。

And if you think about how you can make your product easier to use and more understandable, that will of course drive people to use it, and use more of it, and have a better experience with it that they'll want to talk about with others.

如果您考虑如何使您的产品更易于使用和更易于理解，这当然会促使人们使用它，并使用更多它，并获得更好的体验，他们会愿意与其他人谈论。

Katie Dill: In fact, at Stripe our Growth team I would say is pretty much maniacally focused on building better experiences because we've seen it tied directly to our business metrics.

Katie Dill：事实上，我想说，在 Stripe，我们的增长团队非常专注于打造更好的体验，因为我们发现它与我们的业务指标直接相关。

We have things that we've improved on in our onboarding flow, for example, to make it easier to understand the products, understand how they work for your different use cases such that then we have seen activations increase because we've made these quality improvements that are just directly tied to growth.

我们在入职流程中进行了改进，例如，为了更容易理解产品，了解它们如何适用于您的不同用例，这样我们就可以看到激活量增加，因为我们做出了这些与增长直接相关的质量改进。

Katie Dill: One of the biggest examples that I've seen of business impact through quality is actually in the checkout experience.

Katie Dill：我所看到的通过质量影响业务的最大例子之一实际上是在结帐体验中。

We've done research on the checkout experience in some of the top e-commerce sites.

我们对一些顶级电子商务网站的结账体验进行了研究。

We found that 99% of the top e-commerce sites have errors in their checkout flow that actually hinder more impactful, more seamless, quicker checkout, and therefore higher conversion with their customers.

我们发现 99% 的顶级电子商务网站的结帐流程存在错误，这些错误实际上阻碍了更有效、更无缝、更快速的结帐，从而阻碍了客户的更高转化率。

These small things, really they're quality issues.

这些小事，确实是质量问题。

Katie Dill: They're just that if you really understand what a consumer is trying to get out of the experience, then you can make it better.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：他们只是说，如果你真正了解消费者想要从体验中获得什么，那么你就可以让它变得更好。

So we have been maniacally focused on that over many years, trying to make the checkout experience so much better for businesses and their consumers.

因此，多年来我们一直疯狂地关注这一点，试图为企业及其消费者提供更好的结账体验。

So by improving the quality of the checkout experience through details small and large, we have seen a 10.5% increase in business' revenue from an older form of checkout to a newer form of checkout.

因此，通过大大小小的细节来提高结账体验的质量，我们发现从旧的结账形式到新的结账形式，企业收入增加了 10.5%。

And those little details matter to have such a material impact on one's revenue.

这些小细节对收入产生如此重大的影响非常重要。

Lenny: You mentioned this before we started recording, but you guys power the checkout flow for some very big sites.

莱尼：在我们开始录制之前你就提到过这一点，但是你们为一些非常大的网站提供了结账流程。

Can you mention a few of these because they'll give people a sense of like holy moly.

你能提一下其中的一些吗，因为它们会给人一种神圣的感觉。

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

Stripe is used by millions of businesses globally, small and large, from early stage startups, to SMBs, larger organizations and enterprises like Amazon and Hertz, Shopify, Spotify, X, which I believe you use.

Stripe 被全球数以百万计的小型和大型企业使用，从早期初创公司到中小型企业、大型组织和企业，例如 Amazon 和 Hertz、Shopify、Spotify、X，我相信您也使用过。

The work that we do, it ranges.

我们所做的工作范围广泛。

Katie Dill: We have checkout flows, so when someone's paying online, or in person, or we also provide a suite of financial automation tools so that you can run your subscriptions business, and recognize your revenue, and receive tax, and essentially manage the complexity of the financial space through powerful tools that hope to make your job easier so you don't have to sweat the details of how these things work.

Katie Dill：我们有结账流程，所以当有人在线或亲自付款时，我们还提供一套财务自动化工具，以便您可以运行您的订阅业务，确认您的收入，并收税，并通过强大的工具从本质上管理财务领域的复杂性，这些工具希望使您的工作变得更轻松，这样您就不必担心这些事情如何运作的细节。

Lenny: I just want to follow this thread a little bit.

Lenny：我只是想稍微关注一下这个话题。

You talked about these opportunities to improve the checkout flow through a design lens.

您谈到了通过设计视角改善结账流程的这些机会。

You could also think of it from like as a product manager I'd be like, "Oh wow.

你也可以把它想象成一个产品经理，我会说，“哦哇。

Let's just find all the things that people get stuck on and fix them." How is it that you see that from the quality design perspective versus like, "Oh, let's just move this metric and here's all the things that are stopping people." What would you say is the designer's lens on that, if there's anything there?

让我们找到人们遇到的所有问题并解决它们。”从质量设计的角度来看，你是如何看待这一点的，而不是“哦，让我们改变这个指标，这就是所有阻碍人们前进的事情。”如果有什么的话，你会说设计师的镜头是什么？

Katie Dill: Honestly, a pet peeve of mine is this way of talking about things as there's business goals and there's design goals.

Katie Dill：老实说，我最讨厌的就是这种谈论事物的方式，因为有业务目标，也有设计目标。

Because I think maybe the first conversation one should have is that, "What are we trying to build towards?" And I would think that folks that want to create really impactful products, they want to create quality products, and that they want to create things that actually serve their customers in a positive and beneficial way because they know that will build a stronger business in the long run.

因为我认为也许人们应该进行的第一个对话是“我们要努力实现什么目标？”我认为那些想要创造真正有影响力的产品的人，他们想要创造优质的产品，他们想要创造真正以积极和有益的方式为客户服务的东西，因为他们知道从长远来看这将建立一个更强大的业务。

Katie Dill: So yes, there may be slight prioritization details different through the process where a designer might be thinking more about the emotional experience and how somebody feels, because that's oftentimes how they're wired, and that is an important lens to bring on it.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的，在这个过程中，设计师可能会更多地考虑情感体验和某人的感受，因为这通常是他们的连线方式，而且这是一个重要的镜头，在这个过程中可能会有轻微的优先级细节不同。

Whereas somebody else might just be like, "Well, just make the button bigger and they'll click it more often, and that's the outcome that we seek."

而其他人可能会说，“好吧，只要把按钮做得更大，他们就会更频繁地点击它，这就是我们寻求的结果。”

Katie Dill: So this is, again, why I was talking about how important it is to have multidisciplinary teams that work closely together because sometimes we are the checks and balances in the conversation.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：这就是为什么我再次谈论拥有紧密合作的多学科团队是多么重要，因为有时我们是对话中的制衡者。

But I do think if we can align on what are we trying to build?

但我确实认为我们是否可以就我们正在努力构建的目标达成一致？

Are we trying to build something great, then we can recognize the fact that it isn't just that utility is an incredible important part of that, but so is usability and so is desirability because these things together make something truly great.

如果我们试图构建一些伟大的东西，那么我们就可以认识到这样一个事实：实用性不仅是其中令人难以置信的重要组成部分，而且可用性和渴望性也是如此，因为这些东西共同构成了真正伟大的东西。

Katie Dill: So beauty is an important part of that because it does make things more useful, it does make things more accessible, and that with these things kind of coming together you can build towards something better.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：美是其中的重要组成部分，因为它确实使事物变得更有用，它确实使事物变得更容易获得，并且通过这些事物的结合，您可以朝着更好的方向发展。

I think that beauty on its own or just craft on its own without utility, I mean that's like, I don't know, that's like Blu-ray or PATH.

我认为美丽本身或者只是自己制作而没有实用性，我的意思是，我不知道，就像蓝光或路径一样。

Right?

正确的？

That does not lead to a high-quality product.

这不会带来高质量的产品。

So it is the combination of these things, and so it's like stepping towards that.

所以它是这些东西的结合，所以就像朝着这个方向迈进一样。

Katie Dill: But if you really want your product, those features, to be utilized for all that they're worth and to actually gain such esteem, and respect, and reuse, taking it to that next level and thinking about, "How do I make this actually an enjoyable use and that it really feels like it's meant for me and it maps my mental model," that craft and that quality of the execution of those details is going to be paramount.

凯蒂·迪尔：但是，如果你真的希望你的产品、这些功能能够充分发挥其价值，并真正获得尊重、尊重和重用，将其提升到一个新的水平，并思考“我如何让它真正成为一种令人愉快的使用，它真的感觉它适合我，它映射了我的心理模型”，那么这些细节的工艺和执行质量将是至关重要的。

Lenny: You mentioned this word beauty, and I wanted to follow on this a little bit of just ...

莱尼：你提到了“美丽”这个词，我想稍微跟进一下……

This is a big question, but just what is great design?

这是一个很大的问题，但是什么是伟大的设计呢？

What is beauty?

什么是美？

Is there like a objective definition where if a designer is like, "This is great design," is there just like, "Yes, that is true." Or is it just an opinion?

是否存在一个客观的定义，如果设计师说“这是伟大的设计”，那么是否会说“是的，这是真的”。或者这只是一个意见？

How do you think about what is great design?

您如何看待什么是伟大的设计？

What is beauty, Katie Dill?

什么是美丽，凯蒂·迪尔？

Katie Dill: I love that we're talking about this because I feel like there's probably some people listening that are squirming in their seats.

凯蒂·迪尔：我喜欢我们谈论这个，因为我觉得可能有些人在听，在座位上蠕动。

Of like, "Beauty?

比如，“美女？

We're talking about business here." Which is great.

我们在这里谈论生意。”这太棒了。

Actually, there's a fun fact.

其实，有一个有趣的事实。

Stefan Sagmeister and Jessica Walsh have a book called Beauty.

斯特凡·萨格梅斯特 (Stefan Sagmeister) 和杰西卡·沃尔什 (Jessica Walsh) 有一本名为《美丽》的书。

I would highly recommend it.

我强烈推荐它。

Very, very worth the read.

非常非常值得一读。

But one of the first things they talk about in the book is that from the 1800s to the 2000s the use of the word beauty in books that have been digitized by Google has decreased pretty dramatically.

但他们在书中首先谈到的一件事是，从 1800 年代到 2000 年代，通过谷歌数字化的书籍中“美丽”一词的使用大幅减少。

Katie Dill: It's aligned with this idea of like, "Well, functionality is king.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：这与这样的想法是一致的：“嗯，功能才是王道。

Functionality is what matters," as if people think about functionality and beauty as like two opposite things.

功能性才是最重要的”，就好像人们认为功能性和美观是两个相反的东西一样。

But what the whole book talks about is that like, "No, they're not two opposite things." Functionality is important, and actually beauty enhances functionality because it does make things easier to use, more approachable, more compelling to use.

但整本书谈论的是“不，它们不是两个相反的事物”。功能性很重要，实际上美感增强了功能性，因为它确实让东西更容易使用、更平易近人、更引人注目。

And there is actually some objectivity to whether or not beauty enhances things.

事实上，美是否能增强事物的美感是有一定客观性的。

Katie Dill: But if you ask a wide audience what color do they like more or what version of things do they like more, they tend to say the same thing because there is this shared understanding.

凯蒂·迪尔：但是如果你问广大观众他们更喜欢什么颜色或者他们更喜欢什么版本的东西，他们往往会说同样的事情，因为有这种共同的理解。

The other piece of it that yes I can imagine is not talked about in business as often is just the importance of how people feel.

是的，我能想象到的另一件事在商业中并没有像人们经常谈论的那样，只是人们感受的重要性。

A good example of how something looks, and how something is structured, and how that can translate to that, also from the book Beauty, they mentioned that they studied the tweets that came from people that were traveling through Penn Station versus Grand Central.

他们提到，他们研究了来自宾夕法尼亚车站和中央车站旅行的人们的推文，这是一个很好的例子，展示了事物的外观、结构以及如何转化为这一点，这也来自《美丽》一书。

Katie Dill: If you've been to those places I'm sure where I'm going with this, which is just like the people tweeting from Penn Station, it was just like more negative than the people that were tweeting from Grand Central Station that tended to be much more positive and optimistic.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：如果你去过那些地方，我知道我会说些什么，就像从宾夕法尼亚车站发推文的人一样，它比从大中央车站发推文的人更消极，后者往往更积极和乐观。

So the things that you create have this impact.

所以你创造的东西会产生这种影响。

And if you're thinking about like, "I want people to enjoy using my-

如果你在想，“我希望人们喜欢使用我的——

Katie Dill: ...

凯蒂·迪尔：……

have this impact.

有这个影响。

If you're thinking about, "I want people to enjoy using my product, I want them to feel at home in our product." Of course, beauty is a part of it, and this matters deeply to us, and I know, as a financial infrastructure company in the B2B space, some may assume that that doesn't matter as much, but it's actually a key priority for us.

如果您在想，“我希望人们喜欢使用我的产品，我希望他们在我们的产品中感到宾至如归。”当然，美丽是其中的一部分，这对我们来说非常重要，而且我知道，作为 B2B 领域的金融基础设施公司，有些人可能会认为这并不那么重要，但这实际上是我们的首要任务。

Because, number one, things that are more beautiful, increase trust.

因为，第一，更美丽的事物可以增加信任。

You see that we've put painstaking detail into this and we care about the details of how something works, and that gives you assurance that we care about other details that you can't see too.

您会看到，我们在这方面投入了大量的细节，我们关心某些东西如何工作的细节，这让您确信我们也关心您看不到的其他细节。

Katie Dill: Then, secondly, it is easier to use, as I've mentioned, it gives better user outcomes.

Katie Dill：其次，它更易于使用，正如我所提到的，它提供了更好的用户结果。

What we're trying to do is we're trying to equip businesses to make the right decisions to be more successful at what they do.

我们正在努力做的是让企业能够做出正确的决策，从而在他们所做的事情上取得更大的成功。

By bringing a interface or our invoices, or whatever it might be, to be more beautiful, and more easy to use, and more trustworthy, that will lead them to better outcomes.

通过让界面或我们的发票，或者其他任何东西变得更美观、更易于使用、更值得信赖，这将使他们获得更好的结果。

Thirdly, I strongly believe beauty begets beauty.

第三，我坚信美丽会带来美丽。

When our business users or the consumers see the beauty and the care and the creativity that we put into things we deliver, then that again reassures them of just the care that we put into them.

当我们的商业用户或消费者看到我们在交付的产品中投入的美丽、关怀和创造力时，他们就会再次确信我们投入的关怀。

Actually, a perfect example of this, have you seen the show The Bear?

事实上，一个完美的例子是，你看过《熊》这部剧吗？

Lenny: I have, yes.

莱尼：是的，我有过。

Great example.

很好的例子。

Yeah.

是的。

Katie Dill: All right.

凯蒂·迪尔：好的。

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好吧。

No spoilers, but all I have to say is peeling mushrooms.

没有剧透，但我要说的是剥蘑菇。

Do you know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

Such a good example.

这是一个很好的例子。

Such a good example.

这是一个很好的例子。

Lenny: Someone just mentioned that same episode on a recent podcast episode.

莱尼：有人刚刚在最近的播客节目中提到了同一集。

Katie Dill: Okay.

凯蒂·迪尔：好的。

All right.

好吧。

Well, it's that good.

嗯，那就太好了。

It's that good.

就这么好。

I wish I could remember which episode that was, but it was seven?

我希望我能记得那是哪一集，但那是第七集？

I forget.

我忘记了。

But anyway.

但无论如何。

Lenny: Yeah, that's exactly right.

莱尼：是的，完全正确。

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

Katie Dill: Oh, nice.

凯蒂·迪尔：噢，太好了。

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好吧。

Well, and then lastly, quality is a matter of pride, beauty is a matter of pride.

好吧，最后，质量是一种自豪感，美丽是一种自豪感。

If we put that care into our work, more people will want to work with us, because they want to see their time spent and the care for their craft recognized and utilized and see that that can be put together into something really impactful.

如果我们将这种关怀融入到我们的工作中，就会有更多的人愿意与我们合作，因为他们希望看到他们所花费的时间和对他们的技艺的关怀得到认可和利用，并看到这些可以整合成真正有影响力的东西。

We really put that on the pedestal, because we know how much it matters to our users and then how much it matters to the people that work with us.

我们确实把它放在了基座上，因为我们知道它对我们的用户有多重要，对与我们一起工作的人有多重要。

Beauty is an important part of it all.

美是这一切的重要组成部分。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Speaking of beauty, when I think of Stripe and beautiful, I think of your website, and some of the specific landing pages you have, which are just incredibly nice.

说到美丽，当我想到 Stripe 和美丽时，我会想到你们的网站，以及你们拥有的一些特定的登陆页面，它们非常漂亮。

I'm just curious how you decide it's time to redesign your website and how much time and thought you put into a new website.

我只是好奇您如何决定重新设计您的网站以及您在新网站上投入了多少时间和想法。

Because that feels like a common question founders have, "Should we redo our website?" And it feels like you guys really think deeply about that.

因为这感觉像是创始人常见的问题：“我们应该重做我们的网站吗？”感觉你们真的对此进行了深入的思考。

So, I guess is there anything there that you can share?

那么，我想您有什么可以分享的吗？

Katie Dill: Yeah, there's definitely a couple of things we could talk about in terms of operationalizing quality.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的，在运营质量方面我们确实可以讨论一些事情。

Because the gravitational pull is to mediocrity.

因为万有引力是平庸的。

It is very easy to fall into a path of a baseline, where what is required to go to that next level where something feels truly great is certainly a lot of effort, and it's a concerted effort.

我们很容易陷入一条基线路径，要进入下一个水平，感觉真正很棒的东西肯定需要付出很大的努力，而且是齐心协力的努力。

I will definitely say we are a work in progress and we have not nailed all the things and it is an ongoing pursuit of excellence.

我肯定会说，我们是一项正在进行中的工作，我们还没有把所有的事情都搞定，这是对卓越的持续追求。

Katie Dill: The way that we build the website is that we certainly do put a lot of care into what we're putting out into the world, and we view it as a articulation of how we care about our users in all that we provide for them.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我们建立网站的方式是，我们确实对我们向世界发布的内容投入了很多关注，我们将其视为我们如何关心我们为用户提供的一切的表达。

So, we take that very seriously.

所以，我们非常重视这一点。

We try to meld art and science.

我们尝试融合艺术和科学。

So, it's the creativity of the work, but it's also just the technical power of the way that we show it.

所以，这是作品的创造力，但也只是我们展示它的方式的技术力量。

Katie Dill: How we've actually operationalized the way we do that is that we have design and engineering and our product partners and product marketing work really, really closely on this.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我们实际上是如何实施这一做法的，我们的设计和工程以及我们的产品合作伙伴和产品营销工作都在这方面非常非常密切。

Actually, it's one of the few teams where all of these things report, well, not all of them, but most of those functions report into one place.

实际上，它是少数几个报告所有这些事情的团队之一，好吧，不是全部，但大多数功能都报告到一个地方。

So, engineering and design actually all report up into the design organization when they work on the website.

因此，工程和设计在网站上工作时实际上都会向设计组织报告。

Together, quite literally, as we were talking about earlier, if we were physically together, they would be sitting side by side and they're batting ideas back and forth, because the engineer on the team has a great idea for how we could go about executing on it.

毫不夸张地说，正如我们之前讨论的那样，如果我们身体在一起，他们会并排坐在一起，来回讨论想法，因为团队中的工程师对我们如何执行它有一个很好的想法。

And the designer on the team has another idea how to push that a little further.

团队中的设计师还有另一个想法，如何进一步推动这一目标。

So, that rapid cycle of iteration is really, really powerful, especially when we're trying to move quickly, but at an extremely high standard.

因此，这种快速的迭代周期确实非常强大，尤其是当我们试图以极高的标准快速行动时。

Lenny: That's super interesting.

莱尼：这非常有趣。

Is there anything else that you've found to be really helpful in just operationalizing great design, craft, beauty, any processes, systems, frameworks?

您发现还有什么其他东西对实施出色的设计、工艺、美观、任何流程、系统、框架真正有帮助吗？

Katie Dill: Yeah, I would love to tell you about something that we've actually rolled out pretty recently that I'm extremely excited about the positive impact on.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：是的，我很想告诉你我们最近实际上推出的一些东西，我对其产生的积极影响感到非常兴奋。

Katie Dill: But before I get into that, one of the things that has been driving a little bit of this process and the way that I've been thinking about how we can build better things at Stripe is actually I've been just talking to people, talking to different design leaders, product leaders, engineer leaders at different organizations and trying to understand how they go about it.

Katie Dill：但在我开始讨论之前，推动这一过程的因素之一以及我一直在思考如何在 Stripe 构建更好的东西的方式实际上是我一直在与人们交谈，与不同组织的不同设计领导者、产品领导者、工程师领导者交谈，并试图了解他们是如何做的。

There are a couple of themes that are clearly coming through.

有几个主题显而易见。

Katie Dill: Number one is that quality is definitely a group effort.

Katie Dill：第一，质量绝对是团队努力的结果。

You're sunk if you think that you can just hire some incredibly talented person and they'll do it, that'll be fine.

如果你认为你可以雇佣一些非常有才华的人并且他们会这么做，那你就完蛋了，那很好。

The rest of us will do what we're doing and they'll do it, or that it's just one organization that's going to look out for quality or QA is going to solve it all for you.

我们其他人会做我们正在做的事情，他们也会做，或者只是一个组织会关注质量，或者 QA 会为您解决所有问题。

It really does need to be an organizational and a group effort.

这确实需要组织和团队的努力。

If you think about the way that you run the internal functions is going to show up in the outside and how clear you all are and how you're talking about it and the standards that you set inside and you're constantly reminding people of in the way that you communicate inside will then eventually show up outside.

如果你考虑一下你运行内部功能的方式将在外部显现出来，你们的思路有多清晰，你们如何谈论它，以及你在内部设定的标准，你不断提醒人们你在内部沟通的方式最终会在外部显现出来。

So, of course, keeping your talent bar high and then thinking about how those things really need to be cared for, that shared care across the organization is number one.

因此，当然，保持你的人才高标准，然后思考这些事情真正需要如何照顾，整个组织的共同照顾是第一位的。

Katie Dill: Number two is that there needs to be some amount of vision and alignment.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：第二点是需要有一定的远见和一致性。

So, if you hire all the best people in the world and you just set them out to go and do their thing, what are the chances that they're all going to end up with something that actually aligns pretty well?

那么，如果你雇佣了世界上所有最优秀的人才，然后让他们去做自己的事情，那么他们最终获得真正一致的结果的机会有多大？

Even if they all have incredible taste and they're very good at what they do, there is subjectivity to every decision in some part.

即使他们都有令人难以置信的品味并且非常擅长自己的工作，但每个决定在某些方面都存在主观性。

So, that they might end up with some things that are really great but don't fit together as a really nice whole.

因此，他们最终可能会得到一些非常好的东西，但不能组合成一个非常好的整体。

Katie Dill: The perfect example would be building a house.

凯蒂·迪尔：最好的例子就是建造一座房子。

You have the person that works on the roof and the person that works on the deck and the person that does the siding, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

有在屋顶上工作的人，有在甲板上工作的人，还有做壁板的人，等等，等等。

A house is arguably far less complex than most of the technical products that we all know.

可以说，房子远没有我们所知道的大多数技术产品那么复杂。

Yet, there is painstaking effort put into having the plans and having a drawing of what the final thing is going to look like.

然而，我们需要付出艰苦的努力来制定计划并绘制最终的样子。

There's a GC, there's an architect.

有GC，有建筑师。

And these people are helping to make sure that all those pieces fit together, and we should have that same care when we're trying to build products together.

这些人正在帮助确保所有这些部分能够组合在一起，当我们尝试一起构建产品时，我们应该给予同样的关注。

Katie Dill: I think a big pair on that is then the next piece, which is editing.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我认为下一个作品就是编辑。

And you might call that your GC or your architect or somebody that sees how all these things fit together, and then has an ability to help narrow and reduce and remove the things that don't fit.

你可能会称其为你的 GC 或你的架构师或某人，他们看到所有这些东西如何组合在一起，然后有能力帮助缩小范围、减少和删除不适合的东西。

At Airbnb, Brian Chesky is the editor of all the things that come together.

在 Airbnb，Brian Chesky 是所有相关内容的编辑。

At the Economist, there's a chief editor.

《经济学人》有一位主编。

But other organizations, they might decentralize that approach, which is certainly possible, but challenging, because you do need somebody to help see these things come together.

但其他组织可能会分散这种方法，这当然是可能的，但具有挑战性，因为您确实需要有人帮助将这些事情整合在一起。

Katie Dill: That pairs with the next piece, which is about courage, the ability to actually say, "No, this isn't good enough." To have the resolve to just be like, "Almost, but no." Which is one of the hardest decisions I think leaders can make and certainly I've had to ever make in my career, too, is just a team puts all this care and effort into something and then you're going to say, "Actually, unfortunately we're just not there yet.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：这与下一个作品相结合，这是关于勇气，以及真正说“不，这还不够好”的能力。下定决心说：“几乎，但没有。”这是我认为领导者可以做出的最艰难的决定之一，当然我在职业生涯中也必须做出这样的决定，就是一个团队将所有的关心和努力投入到某件事上，然后你会说，“实际上，不幸的是我们还没有做到这一点。

Let's try again." That is, I think, incredibly important part of getting there and building the fitness of what you do.

让我们再试一次。”我认为，这是实现这一目标并建立你所做工作的适应性的极其重要的部分。

Katie Dill: Then, lastly, the thing that I've learned that will lead me to the example that you were asking about is that, in order to build quality, you really do need to understand it also from the user perspective, which gets me into my fixation with journeys, because that is how a user sees it.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：最后，我学到的一件事将引导我想到你所问的例子，那就是，为了提高质量，你确实需要从用户的角度来理解它，这让我开始关注旅程，因为这就是用户看待它的方式。

The user very, very, very rarely just deals with any aspect of what you build in isolation.

用户非常非常非常很少单独处理您构建的内容的任何方面。

There has to be a moment where they learn about it.

必须有一个时刻让他们了解这一点。

There has to be a moment where they get to know it, and then there's a moment where they actually decide to use it, and then something just changed and now they need to use that product in some other way.

必须有一个时刻他们开始了解它，然后有一个时刻他们真正决定使用它，然后有些东西发生了变化，现在他们需要以其他方式使用该产品。

You have to understand it from that point of view to really understand whether or not the quality is there.

你必须从这个角度去理解它，才能真正了解质量是否有。

I think that's a critical piece of building teams that have empathy for their users.

我认为这是建立对用户有同理心的团队的关键部分。

Katie Dill: So, we have been operationalizing that.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以，我们一直在实施这一点。

All the things that I just mentioned, but one of the key pieces is to bring that approach to understanding the quality of the product.

我刚才提到的所有事情，但关键之一是采用这种方法来了解产品的质量。

So, our goal was to set out to try to solve the fact that products can be shipped and they could be at their highest game when you ship them, they go through all the processes internally to be a high quality thing, and then it gets out into the world and then, over time, the quality regresses.

因此，我们的目标是着手解决这样一个事实：产品可以发货，并且在发货时它们可以处于最高水平，它们在内部经历所有流程，成为高质量的产品，然后它进入世界，然后随着时间的推移，质量会下降。

Some of the reasons for that is that other things are being shipped.

部分原因是其他东西正在运输。

It's kind of like, again, back to an analogy of a house, imagine you have one room where you redo the molding and you paint the little aspects and you've put new plates on the lights, now all of a sudden that room is great, but it makes everything else look worse and the whole composite is worse.

这有点像，再次回到房子的类比，想象你有一个房间，在那里你重做造型，你画了小方面，你在灯上放了新的板，现在突然间那个房间很棒，但它让其他一切看起来更糟，整个复合材料也更糟。

Katie Dill: That is something that can happen to products is actually they get worse over time.

凯蒂·迪尔：产品可能会发生这种情况，实际上它们会随着时间的推移而变得更糟。

Then you organize a company oftentimes and parts to be able to focus on their key business areas.

然后，您经常组织公司和部门，以便能够专注于其关键业务领域。

That's a very good thing because they get focused and they know what they're building towards and they get expertise and they're laser focused on that.

这是一件非常好的事情，因为他们变得专注，他们知道他们正在建设的目标是什么，他们获得了专业知识，并且他们全神贯注于此。

So, ideally, they move faster.

因此，理想情况下，他们行动得更快。

But what also happens is that they get so focused on that they forget about that piece of the journey, and how it all fits together, and not recognizing that part of their product experience is intimately tied to another.

但同时发生的情况是，他们过于专注，以至于忘记了旅程的那一部分，以及这一切是如何组合在一起的，并且没有意识到他们的产品体验的一部分与另一部分密切相关。

Katie Dill: So, what we did was we set out to, number one, increase the kind of awareness and accountability of leaders to own their journeys.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以，我们所做的第一件事就是提高领导者的意识和责任感，以掌控自己的旅程。

What we have established are we started with 15 of our most important user journeys.

我们已经确定，我们从 15 个最重要的用户旅程开始。

15 is somewhat of an arbitrary number.

15 是一个任意的数字。

It's a number that we can kind of keep track of, but also has pretty good breadth, but is certainly not comprehensive of all the most important things.

这是一个我们可以跟踪的数字，而且也具有相当大的广度，但肯定不能全面涵盖所有最重要的事情。

But 15 of our critical user journeys, the things that we know matter so deeply to our users, and we must get right at the highest level of quality possible.

但是，在我们的 15 个关键用户旅程中，我们所知道的事情对我们的用户来说非常重要，我们必须尽可能达到最高的质量水平。

Katie Dill: Those 15 things then each have engineering, product and design leaders that are responsible for the quality of those products.

Katie Dill：这 15 个项目分别有工程、产品和设计领导者负责这些产品的质量。

They review these journeys, what we call walk the store, where they review them as if they're walking the floor of their store on a regular cadence, and they friction log what they experience, which I know David Singleton talked about on your podcast.

他们回顾这些旅程，我们称之为在商店里行走，他们回顾这些旅程，就像他们以有规律的节奏在商店的地板上行走一样，他们摩擦记录他们的经历，我知道大卫·辛格尔顿在你的播客上谈到了这一点。

They will write what they have seen, what's working, what's not working.

他们会写下他们所看到的，什么有效，什么无效。

They're viewing this from, they're trying to put themselves in the shoes of their user.

他们试图从用户的角度来看待这一点。

This of course doesn't replace user research, but it substitutes it and it adds to that.

这当然不会取代用户研究，但它取代并补充了用户研究。

Katie Dill: So, they go through the experience and noting what's working and what's not working.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以，他们会回顾经验并注意哪些有效，哪些无效。

And very critically, it's a journey, so a lot of times it starts from internet search, it starts on Google trying to understand something, goes to the website, they end up on Docs, they end up in the dashboard, and they're seeing it as a user might.

非常重要的是，这是一个旅程，所以很多时候它从互联网搜索开始，从谷歌开始尝试理解某些东西，进入网站，最终到达文档，最终到达仪表板，他们以用户的方式看待它。

With that, they're able to find the entailments of the experience that may or may not be working.

这样，他们就能够找到可能有效或无效的体验的含义。

They jot that down, they file bugs, they reach out to the teams that may own the different parts of this experience, and then they score it.

他们记下这些内容，提交错误，联系可能拥有此体验不同部分的团队，然后对其进行评分。

Then on, again, a regular cadence, we come together in almost like a calibration, where we meet and we talk about the score of their work.

然后，再次以有规律的节奏，我们几乎像校准一样聚集在一起，在那里我们见面并讨论他们的工作得分。

Katie Dill: It relates to performance reviews.

凯蒂·迪尔：这与绩效评估有关。

Performance reviews, managers are assessing an individual's performance, which is hard.

绩效考核，管理者正在评估一个人的绩效，这很难。

There's some subjectivity to it, just like understanding quality can be.

它有一些主观性，就像理解质量一样。

But what we do as managers is we calibrate.

但作为管理者，我们所做的就是校准。

We come together and we talk about, "Okay, how well is our interpretation of our ladders document?

我们聚在一起讨论，“好吧，我们对梯子文件的解释怎么样？

And how well does that performance align?

这种表现的一致性如何？

And are we doing it consistently across the rest of the organization?" So, we do something very similar.

我们是否在组织的其他部门一致地这样做？”因此，我们做了非常相似的事情。

We calibrate these scores because what we're really trying to do is not just the 15 essential journeys and the owners of those, we want to actually uplevel and bring more shared understanding of our quality bar across the company.

我们校准这些分数是因为我们真正想做的不仅仅是 15 个基本旅程和这些旅程的所有者，我们希望真正提升水平并让整个公司对我们的质量标准有更多的共同理解。

These moments of calibration start that.

这些校准时刻就是开始。

Then having leaders do this creates this, number one, it cascades this idea of the importance of owning your journey and then also has upstream impact.

然后让领导者这样做会创造这一点，第一，它会级联这种拥有自己的旅程的重要性的想法，然后也会产生上游影响。

Katie Dill: Because when people see the state of products in the wild as a user would, they learn a lot about what are some of the bigger opportunities that we can make to make the product better?

凯蒂·迪尔：因为当人们像用户一样看到产品的实际状态时，他们会了解到很多关于我们可以创造哪些更大的机会来使产品变得更好？

What are some of the things that maybe we want to change in our process to make sure that we have even better things coming into the wild?

我们可能希望在流程中改变哪些事情，以确保我们有更好的东西投入使用？

One of the best parts of this is, since then we've learned that folks have seen that like, "Oh my goodness, our SEO for this particular product or the way we're articulating it doesn't align to actually how we want people to understand it later on in the journey.

其中最好的部分之一是，从那时起，我们了解到人们已经看到这样的情况，“天哪，我们对这个特定产品的搜索引擎优化或我们阐明它的方式与我们希望人们在以后的旅程中理解它的方式并不相符。

So if we improve this over here, we're going to improve outcomes later on." They're seeing that and they're now able to make that happen even faster to make some of the changes there.

因此，如果我们在这里改进这一点，我们以后就会改善结果。”他们看到了这一点，现在能够更快地实现这一目标，从而在那里做出一些改变。

Katie Dill: Then my real favorite part is that we're hearing from folks that maybe at first didn't see this as necessary, that maybe in different functions that are just like, "Oh, I was so very focused on executing the technical ability of what I do on this thing, but I hadn't seen it from this lens before." Now there're actually converts of like, "Yes, this is a really important part of it." That goes back to the point of it's a group effort.

凯蒂·迪尔：那么我真正最喜欢的部分是，我们从人们那里听到，他们可能一开始并不认为这是必要的，可能在不同的职能中，就像，“哦，我非常专注于执行我在这件事上所做的技术能力，但我以前没有从这个角度看到它。”现在实际上有一些皈依者，“是的，这是其中非常重要的一部分。”这又回到了团队努力的点。

You don't want just one function looking out for the quality of the product.

您不希望只有一种功能来关注产品的质量。

So, having engineers and product managers and people of different disciplines walking the store, seeing the experience, feeling it firsthand, I think will lead to better care in all of the details that will aligned to better craft in the end.

因此，让工程师、产品经理和不同学科的人员在商店里走动，亲眼目睹体验，亲身感受，我认为这将有助于更好地照顾所有细节，最终形成更好的工艺。

Lenny: Oh man, what an awesome process.

莱尼：天哪，真是一个很棒的过程。

I have a million questions I want to ask to better understand how you operationalize this.

我想问一百万个问题，以便更好地了解你们如何实施这一点。

I'll try to ask just a few.

我会尝试只问几个。

But one thing that stood out about this process is I think people kind of don't trust their own judgment when they're looking at their own product.

但这个过程中突出的一件事是，我认为人们在查看自己的产品时不太相信自己的判断。

They kind of, especially product managers, almost have to feel like they have to rely on user research or data to know a thing versus like, "I just see this and it feels bad to me." I think I've learned over time more and more that you should really trust that, because you're spending your energy trying to use this thing, you're not that different from a potential user.

他们，尤其是产品经理，几乎必须感觉自己必须依靠用户研究或数据来了解一件事，而不是“我只是看到这个，这对我来说感觉很糟糕。”我想，随着时间的推移，我越来越认识到，你应该真正相信这一点，因为你花费精力尝试使用这个东西，你与潜在用户没有什么不同。

So, I love that this actually relies on your personal judgment trying to use a thing, which I think people undervalue.

所以，我喜欢这实际上依赖于你尝试使用某个东西的个人判断，我认为人们低估了这一点。

Lenny: A couple of just very tactical questions, how often roughly does this happen?

莱尼：几个非常战术性的问题，这种情况发生的频率大约是多少？

Is it once a quarter?

是一个季度一次吗？

Katie Dill: To your first point, 100%, they're all just forms of input.

Katie Dill：对于你的第一点，100%，它们都只是输入形式。

I'm definitely not saying do this instead of user research, do this instead of data.

我绝对不是说用这个代替用户研究，用这个代替数据。

It's like these things in additional sense.

从附加意义上讲，这就像这些东西。

I do think what's so powerful about doing it firsthand is that, although I am the biggest supporter of user research, even hearing somebody talk about an experience, while that is really, really powerful, feeling the pain firsthand is just this next level of visceral understanding of like, "Oh, this could be better." Your users, they might not always say what's missing or what's wrong, or maybe they don't know that certain aspects of it could be better.

我确实认为，亲身体验的强大之处在于，尽管我是用户研究的最大支持者，甚至听到有人谈论体验，虽然这真的非常强大，但亲身感受到痛苦只是内心理解的下一个层次，比如“哦，这可能会更好。”您的用户可能并不总是说缺少什么或出了什么问题，或者他们可能不知道它的某些方面可以做得更好。

Yeah, having your point of view on that in addition to the user research and what you've heard from them directly is really, really important.

是的，除了用户研究和你直接从他们那里听到的信息之外，表达你的观点真的非常重要。

Katie Dill: But you asked about how often.

凯蒂·迪尔：但你问的是多久一次。

We have, as I've mentioned, we are constantly looking at our processes and trying to figure out how we can make them better and better as an organization, as we've grown, things need to adjust.

正如我所提到的，我们不断审视我们的流程，并试图找出如何使它们作为一个组织变得越来越好，随着我们的成长，事情需要调整。

We today are doing it quarterly.

我们今天每季度进行一次。

The quarterly aspect of walking the stores by no means meant to be like that's the only time people do it.

每季度逛商店一次并不意味着人们只有在这个时候这样做。

But that is the time where we're looking for update your scorecard and share the information in a dashboard where everybody can see.

但这是我们希望更新您的记分卡并在每个人都可以看到的仪表板中共享信息的时候。

That is feeling right now to be the right cadence because that's enough time that there can be material differences made.

现在感觉这是正确的节奏，因为有足够的时间可以产生实质性的差异。

You can see the scores evolve over time.

您可以看到分数随着时间的推移而变化。

But also frequently enough that you're not missing that perhaps there's been a setback since.

但也足够频繁，以至于你不会错过也许从那时起就遇到了挫折。

But, of course, my real hope is that they're happening weekly, just perhaps in different parts of the organization.

但是，当然，我真正的希望是它们每周都会发生，只是可能在组织的不同部门发生。

Lenny: I want to ask a couple more questions so that folks can try this at home.

莱尼：我想再问几个问题，以便人们可以在家尝试一下。

I was just thinking this podcast is the opposite of don't try this at home.

我只是觉得这个播客与不要在家尝试这个相反。

It's like, "Here, try this at home?"

就像，“在这里，在家试试这个吗？”

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So, I want to try to give people a few more answers to questions when they're probably going to try to do this themselves.

因此，当人们可能自己尝试这样做时，我想尝试为他们提供更多问题的答案。

Who's in these meetings?

谁参加了这些会议？

Do you join these walkthroughs?

您参加这些演练吗？

Does David join?

大卫加入吗？

What do you suggest there?

你在那里有什么建议？

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

For what we're doing for each team is they do them themselves together.

因为我们为每个团队所做的就是他们自己一起做。

At bare minimum, it should be the engineer, product manager and designer doing it together.

至少，应该由工程师、产品经理和设计师一起完成。

The reason why we like to see it happen together is, again, as we've talked about before, is that people bring a different perspective to something.

正如我们之前讨论过的，我们之所以喜欢看到它一起发生，是因为人们对某件事有不同的看法。

Let's say somebody in the room might be like, "Oh my goodness, the load time didn't feel really good there." And like, "Oh, whoa, the way we're stating this is not consistent per page.

假设房间里有人可能会说，“天哪，加载时间感觉不太好。”就像，“哦，哇，我们每页的表述方式并不一致。

And that's not on our design system."

这不在我们的设计系统中。”

Katie Dill: So, it is really powerful to have folks come together and do it.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以，让人们齐心协力去做这件事真的很强大。

In fact, David Singleton, who you mentioned, he and I do these things very regularly, too.

事实上，你提到的大卫·辛格尔顿（David Singleton），他和我也经常做这些事情。

This is outside the essential journeys program, but he and I walk the store and we'll just pick random flows and go through it together.

这不属于基本旅程计划的范围，但他和我在商店里散步，我们会随机选择流程并一起浏览。

I can't code, but he can.

我不会编码，但他会。

So, he'll do the code part and I'll be sitting there being, "What?

所以，他会负责代码部分，而我会坐在那里，“什么？

Do they really do that?

他们真的这么做吗？

How can we make that better for them?"

我们怎样才能让他们变得更好？”

Katie Dill: I really love the multidisciplinary approach, but then when we do the calibration after the team has done these walkthroughs and they've gotten their own perspective and they fill out the scorecard based on our rubric for quality, we will come together in what we call PQR, product quality review.

Katie Dill：我真的很喜欢多学科方法，但是当我们在团队完成这些演练之后进行校准时，他们有了自己的观点，并根据我们的质量标准填写了记分卡，我们将一起进行所谓的 PQR（产品质量审查）。

And they will take us through what they have experienced, and then they'll talk about, "So, this is why we've scored this, a yellow or a yellow green." Then we might have a conversation about that.

他们会带我们回顾他们所经历的事情，然后他们会谈论，“所以，这就是我们得分的原因，黄色或黄绿色。”然后我们可能会就此进行对话。

Katie Dill: It's like, "Well, actually, that felt a little worse than you've described it.

凯蒂·迪尔：就像是，“嗯，实际上，感觉比你描述的更糟糕。

Actually, I think that we probably need to put more urgency on solving that." Or in some cases it's like, "Actually, that was pretty great.

事实上，我认为我们可能需要更加紧迫地解决这个问题。”或者在某些情况下，它就像，“实际上，那非常棒。

If you think about what we're trying to help somebody achieve at this moment that actually is really hitting the mark."

如果你想想我们此时此刻正在努力帮助某人实现什么目标，那实际上真的很切中要害。”

Katie Dill: We will debate that there.

凯蒂·迪尔：我们将在那里辩论这个问题。

In those meetings you'll have, yes, myself, David Singleton, Will Gaybrick, who leads product and business, and then various leaders from the organization that might be relevant to that area.

是的，在这些会议中，您将有我本人、大卫·辛格尔顿 (David Singleton)、负责产品和业务的威尔·盖布里克 (Will Gaybrick)，以及组织中可能与该领域相关的各个领导者。

We are trying to give people insight to what's happening across.

我们正在努力让人们了解正在发生的事情。

Again, it's a multidisciplinary room.

同样，这是一个多学科室。

I'm trying to keep it not too large, because obviously it can be hard to have discussion, but it is very valuable to make sure, again, that we have the perspective of product marketing and the perspective of engineering, the expected product in the room as we discuss what our quality bar is.

我试图让它不要太大，因为显然很难进行讨论，但再次确保我们有产品营销的视角和工程的视角，在我们讨论我们的质量标准时，房间里的预期产品是非常有价值的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

That makes a lot of sense.

这很有意义。

In terms of scoring, are you scoring individual steps of these journeys or is it yellow for segments?

在评分方面，您是对这些旅程的各个步骤进行评分还是对路段进行黄色评分？

What are you scoring?

你打什么分？

Katie Dill: The way the rubric works is so that, and we have a template for the friction log.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：标题的工作方式就是这样，我们有一个摩擦日志的模板。

So, people fill out a friction log and it'll be screenshots and then what they experienced.

因此，人们填写摩擦日志，其中将包含屏幕截图以及他们所经历的内容。

Then there is a tool to tag for each moment.

然后有一个工具可以标记每个时刻。

It's like, "Oh, that was a nice touch." Or, "Ooh, that is not great.

就像，“哦，这真是一个很好的接触。”或者，“哦，那不太好。

We should consider a fix." Or different levels of severity of like, "Oh my gosh, P0 bug, we need to fix this right now." So, they'll tag for different moments in the journey.

我们应该考虑解决办法。”或者不同程度的严重程度，比如“天哪，P0 错误，我们现在需要修复这个问题。”因此，他们会标记旅程中的不同时刻。

Katie Dill: Then there is a summary score at the end, which is based on a rubric that we have that talks about the importance of quality from the point of view of usability, utility, desirability, and actually going to that next level of surprisingly great.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：最后有一个总结分数，它基于我们现有的一个标题，该标题从可用性、实用性、可取性以及实际上进入令人惊讶的下一个水平的角度讨论了质量的重要性。

Then we'll ask them to score on a whole what they felt of these things.

然后我们会要求他们对这些事情的整体感受进行评分。

Then that adds up to a summary score.

然后将其加起来就是一个总分。

Which we have also talked about the different ways of scoring.

我们还讨论了不同的评分方式。

Is it a number-based system?

它是基于数字的系统吗？

Is it a letter-based system?

它是基于字母的系统吗？

Like A-minus and B?

比如A-和B？

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

So far we have landed on a color system because, honestly, I think people can get a little tied around the axle on how you're measuring it, and to your point, especially in subjective things, and it's just like, "Oh, it's like, well, is it really a six or is it a seven?" We didn't want people to get a little too worried about how does...

到目前为止，我们已经确定了一个颜色系统，因为说实话，我认为人们可能会对如何测量它以及你的观点感到有点困惑，尤其是在主观事物上，就像，“哦，就像，嗯，它真的是六还是七？”我们不想让人们过于担心如何......

It's not meant to be an objective quantitative score.

它并不意味着客观的定量分数。

It is qualitative, it is judgment.

它是定性的，是判断。

We hire people for judgment, so we want them to bring that to the conversation.

我们聘用人员时会进行判断，因此我们希望他们将这一点带入对话中。

That's how we chose the score, because we felt that would actually lead to quicker but straightforward opinions and decisions.

这就是我们选择分数的方式，因为我们认为这实际上会带来更快但更直接的意见和决定。

Lenny: At a lot of companies, you have these reviews and the founders share all this like, "Oh, this is broken, this is busted." And as a product team, you're like, "Goddammit, we have these goals we got to hit.

莱尼：在很多公司，你都会收到这些评论，创始人会分享这些评论，比如“哦，这个坏了，这个坏了。”作为一个产品团队，你会说，“天哪，我们有这些必须实现的目标。

We have this roadmap.

我们有这个路线图。

And now we're going to get a hundred things that the founder's like, 'Got to fix this.'" I'm curious just how you tell teams to take this stuff and prioritize it amongst all the other things they're going to do.

现在我们将得到创始人喜欢的一百件事，‘必须解决这个问题。’”我很好奇你如何告诉团队接受这些东西并将其优先于他们要做的所有其他事情。

Is it just up to them, is they're like, "Need to fix this"?

这取决于他们吗？他们会说“需要解决这个问题”吗？

Anything you can share there, but just how to actually operationalize taking this feedback and doing something with it?

您可以在那里分享任何内容，但如何实际操作接受这些反馈并利用它做一些事情呢？

Katie Dill: Yes.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I've seen some organizations talk about when they're doing planning, you do your OKRs quarterly or half year or year, whatever, recommendations of like, 10% of your time should be spent on fixing things, and 20% on growing things, and the rest on keeping the lights on, whatever it might be.

我见过一些组织谈论他们在制定计划时，每季度、半年或每年进行一次 OKR，诸如此类的建议：10% 的时间应该花在修复问题上，20% 的时间应该花在发展事情上，剩下的时间应该花在保持运转上，无论是什么。

Yes, I've seen different companies build a recommendation based on certain percentages of how they think teams should be spending their time.

是的，我见过不同的公司根据他们认为团队应该如何花费时间的一定百分比来制定建议。

Katie Dill: We at Stripe think that, first and foremost, is that we have to make sure that folks are, number one, hired with the fact that they have great judgment and care for what they build, and they take pride in it.

Katie Dill：我们在 Stripe 认为，首先也是最重要的是，我们必须确保雇用的员工具有良好的判断力，关心他们所构建的内容，并且他们为此感到自豪。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Then, you can give a lot of trust to people based on that commitment to building great things that they will use that in their decision-making.

然后，你可以基于对构建伟大事物的承诺给予人们很大的信任，他们将在决策中使用它。

Then, of course, it needs to be very clearly advocated for at the highest levels of the...

然后，当然，它需要在最高层得到非常明确的倡导......

Katie Dill: ...

凯蒂·迪尔：……

Advocated for at the highest levels of the company.

在公司最高层得到倡导。

And with that, I think that fuels people's thinking as they're building their plans, but there is iteration in the plans and we do have multidisciplinary people making the plans together.

由此，我认为这会激发人们在制定计划时的思考，但计划中存在迭代，我们确实有多学科的人员一起制定计划。

So it's like, "Oh, okay, are we advancing these features?

所以这就像是，“哦，好吧，我们正在推进这些功能吗？

Are we going to be building growth?

我们要实现增长吗？

And is that improving the quality as well?" And so I think that's how we together get to it, but there's no formula that we ask people to.

这是否也提高了质量？”所以我认为这就是我们共同实现这一目标的方式，但我们没有要求人们这样做的公式。

Lenny: So basically what I'm hearing is it's the cultural just people are hired with this expectation we are going to focus on quality and we'll prioritize things even though they may not move metrics because we know that this will generally improve and grow the business.

莱尼：所以基本上我听到的是，这是文化，只是人们被雇佣时有这样的期望，我们将专注于质量，我们会优先考虑事情，即使他们可能不会改变指标，因为我们知道这通常会改善和发展业务。

Katie Dill: Part of it though is showing how it moves metrics, because I think that is a dangerous belief that is absolutely out there, as we talked about earlier, but that actual quality improvements do increase growth, they do improve the bottom line.

凯蒂·迪尔：其中一部分是展示它如何移动指标，因为我认为这是一个绝对存在的危险信念，正如我们之前讨论的那样，但实际的质量改进确实会增加增长，它们确实会提高底线。

For example, we saw that folks were reaching out to support because they didn't know the state of how one of their invoices was performing.

例如，我们看到人们寻求支持，因为他们不知道其中一张发票的执行情况。

And when we dig in, we realized it's, well, we had a button that looked nice, but it wasn't super clear, and so they didn't know how to access the thing that they were trying to do.

当我们深入研究时，我们意识到，嗯，我们有一个看起来不错的按钮，但它并不是非常清晰，所以他们不知道如何访问他们想要做的事情。

And so by improving that, we decrease the need for them to have to reach out, which is clearly not their want to have to call somebody to find the answer to their problem.

因此，通过改进这一点，我们减少了他们必须伸出援手的需要，这显然不是他们想要打电话给别人来找到问题答案的方式。

And so with that, we've made an improvement and we, of course, improve the bottom line because of that.

因此，我们已经取得了进步，当然，我们也因此提高了利润。

Katie Dill: So I actually think that maybe one of the steps that somebody should consider in their organization is just you have those examples, every company does, where quality leads to better business outcomes and to talk about those and make them known, because I think it's actually a false belief that it's one or the other, it's like, "Are we going to work on quality and it doesn't move the metrics?

凯蒂·迪尔：所以我实际上认为，也许有人在他们的组织中应该考虑的步骤之一就是你有这些例子，每个公司都有，质量会带来更好的业务成果，并谈论这些并让他们知道，因为我认为这实际上是一种错误的信念，认为这是一个或另一个，就像，“我们是否要在质量上努力而不改变指标？

And where we do." Some of them are longer term and so you have to look out for a while to see that change and the beliefs of your customers or how often they're sharing your product or how often they're succeeding in what they're trying to do, but some of them are short-term impacts and that is an important thing for people to be aware of because it will give them ideas of, oh, we could do this in our team too, we could have a higher quality product and actually move the business metrics.

以及我们所做的事情。”其中一些是长期的，所以你必须观察一段时间，看看这种变化和客户的信念，或者他们分享你的产品的频率，或者他们在他们想做的事情上取得成功的频率，但其中一些是短期影响，这对人们来说是一件重要的事情，因为这会让他们产生想法，哦，我们也可以在我们的团队中这样做，我们可以拥有更高质量的产品并实际改变业务指标。

Lenny: Is there anything you do in how you evaluate performance of teams that helps prioritize this sort of thing?

Lenny：在评估团队绩效时，您是否采取了哪些措施来帮助确定此类事情的优先顺序？

So generally it's just, cool, this team moved this metric by a ton, they're doing great.

所以总的来说，这很酷，这个团队将这个指标提高了很多，他们做得很好。

Is there anything that you bake into performance evaluations at Stripe, especially for product teams that help them understand and prioritize some of these things that may not obviously move metrics other than just broadly we believe great experiences are going to improve growth?

您在 Stripe 的绩效评估中是否考虑了什么，特别是对于产品团队来说，帮助他们理解并优先考虑其中一些事情，这些事情可能不会明显改变指标，而只是广泛地我们相信伟大的体验将促进增长？

Katie Dill: Well, I think one part is being clear on what impact means, because I do think that in some companies impact is just, okay, what business metric did I move and how much?

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：嗯，我认为一方面要明确影响力的含义，因为我确实认为在某些公司中，影响力只是，好吧，我改变了哪些业务指标以及改变了多少？

And there are certainly really important impact projects that folks can have that maybe they're multi-quarter, multi-year, and so maybe you didn't move this incredibly important business metric in one quarter, but actually the work that you are doing is instrumental to the success of the business.

当然，人们可以拥有一些非常重要的影响项目，也许它们是多个季度、多年的，所以也许你没有在一个季度内改变这个极其重要的业务指标，但实际上你正在做的工作对业务的成功至关重要。

So there's that.

所以就是这样。

And then, like you said, there are perhaps quality efforts that are harder to measure or they're longer term, but they're still impactful.

然后，就像你说的，也许有些高质量的努力很难衡量，或者是长期的，但它们仍然有影响力。

So I think number one is that when you're thinking about how to come up with the rubric for how you're going to judge performance, it's just really honing in on what does impact mean, and then a lot comes from that and being able to and celebrate and recognize great work happening even when it's not necessarily materially moving that number.

所以我认为第一是，当你考虑如何提出如何判断绩效的标准时，它只是真正磨练影响力的含义，然后会产生很多东西，并且能够庆祝和认可正在发生的伟大工作，即使它不一定会实质性地改变这个数字。

Katie Dill: The other part of it is we have a ladder system.

凯蒂·迪尔：另一部分是我们有一个阶梯系统。

So it's a document that's not meant to lay out here's the checklist of all the things you need to do, but it's a guide for this is what is expected in your role and at this level, and in these documents we talk about the importance of things like quality in that what we pursue is building these things that are great.

因此，这份文件并不是要列出您需要做的所有事情的清单，而是一个指南，说明您的角色和这个级别的期望，在这些文件中，我们讨论了质量等事物的重要性，因为我们追求的是构建这些伟大的事物。

And another part of that is also the operating principles, which is the thing that we align on underneath all of these levels and ladders systems that we have.

另一部分也是运营原则，这是我们在所有这些级别和梯子系统之下所遵循的原则。

And our operating principles include meticulous craft.

我们的经营原则包括一丝不苟的工艺。

It is one of the things that is really important to us as an organization is just having that meticulous care for all that you do, whether it's you're designing the space that we work within or that you're creating the API or that you're building the interface or that you're talking to people on support calls, the meticulous craft is something that is actually expected of everybody.

作为一个组织，对我们来说真正重要的事情之一就是对你所做的一切都一丝不苟，无论是你在设计我们工作的空间，还是你正在创建 API，或者你正在构建界面，或者你正在与支持电话中的人员交谈，一丝不苟的工艺实际上是每个人所期望的。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 OneSchema 为您带来的，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。

Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file, and building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never ending sink for your engineering and support resources.

客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据，而构建电子表格导入程序会成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的消耗。

You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, but customers keep running into issues.

您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，但客户不断遇到问题。

Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.

六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。

Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.

大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 却是。

Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.

Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。

Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products, customers get frustrated by useless messages like error on line 53 and never end up getting started with your product.

在许多产品中，电子表格导入的体验非常糟糕，客户会对第 53 行错误等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。

Lenny: OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.

Lenny：OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必为了开始使用您的产品而花费数小时在 Excel 中。

For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.

OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。

Learn more at oneschema.co/leti.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/leti。

Lenny: I'm going to shift to a different topic and this is just the last area I want to spend some time on, which is team building leadership, that sort of thing.

莱尼：我要转向另一个主题，这只是我想花时间的最后一个领域，即团队建设领导力之类的事情。

So you've led design at three hypergrowth companies, two of them, Airbnb and Stripe, are two of the biggest companies in the world, and also just known for great design.

您曾在三个高速增长的公司领导设计工作，其中 Airbnb 和 Stripe 这两家公司是世界上最大的两家公司，也以出色的设计而闻名。

And I'm just going to ask a broad question, what have you learned about building, leading, managing, scaling large teams, are there lessons that stick with you?

我只想问一个广泛的问题，您在建立、领导、管理、扩展大型团队方面学到了什么，有哪些经验教训让您印象深刻？

Anything come to mind when I ask that broad question?

当我问这个广泛的问题时，你会想到什么吗？

Katie Dill: One of the things that has stuck with me through all the trials and tribulations of leading, and as I've already laid out for you in the very beginning of this call, haven't always got it right, but one of the things that has been a clarifying force as I think about growing and leading teams, it's actually something I learned at Airbnb when we were there together, it's a formula sort of.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：在领导的所有考验和磨难中一直困扰着我的一件事，正如我在这次电话会议一开始就已经为你阐述的那样，并不总是正确的，但当我思考发展和领导团队时，其中一件事一直是一种澄清力量，这实际上是我在 Airbnb 学到的东西，当我们在一起时，它是一种公式。

So performance equals potential minus interference.

因此，性能等于潜力减去干扰。

Katie Dill: And I really like this, it's pretty simple, but it's a good reminder that, as a leader, one of the things that you are of course driving towards is trying to get better performance so that your team feels more purpose and motivation and is excited about their work and that you're building greater things for your customers and you're having more business effect, and, of course, performance.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我真的很喜欢这一点，这很简单，但它很好地提醒了我们，作为领导者，您所追求的目标之一当然是努力获得更好的绩效，以便您的团队感受到更多的目标和动力，并对他们的工作感到兴奋，并且您正在为客户构建更伟大的东西，并且您会获得更多的业务效果，当然还有绩效。

But the key pieces of that, of course, is potential, so thinking about how you increase potential, which would be, of course, hiring really well, developing the talent and helping them grow and increase their own potential to do better and greater things.

但其中的关键部分当然是潜力，因此要考虑如何增加潜力，当然，这将是很好地招聘、培养人才并帮助他们成长并增加自己的潜力，以做得更好、更伟大的事情。

And then paired to that though of course is decreasing the interferences, which could be that lead weight on top of great talent, because you can hire the best people in the world, but like a muscle atrophying underneath a cast, if there are interferences that are holding them back from doing great work, they're going to burn out, they're not going to enjoy the work, they're not going to be as successful, and you will not get as strong of performance from it.

当然，与此相伴的是减少干扰，这可能是优秀人才的首要因素，因为你可以雇用世界上最优秀的人才，但就像石膏下面的肌肉萎缩一样，如果存在阻碍他们完成出色工作的干扰，他们就会精疲力尽，他们不会享受工作，他们不会那么成功，你也不会从中获得那么强大的表现。

Katie Dill: And so I really do think of this constantly as to how can I increase potential, how can I decrease interferences?

凯蒂·迪尔：所以我确实不断地思考如何增加潜力，如何减少干扰？

And over time, especially as your company grows, you're going to have to keep doing that.

随着时间的推移，尤其是随着你的公司的发展，你将不得不继续这样做。

The design work is never done in designing a team, because the more people you bring in, the more it puts your processes in a faulty state.

设计工作永远不会在设计团队时完成，因为你引入的人越多，你的流程就越容易陷入错误状态。

I have intentionally run teams where you get to a point where it's like running hot, it's just like, "Okay, we've outgrown our processes." And that's okay because then you can learn as to, okay, this is how people are actually trying to work and this is how we actually can improve it.

我有意识地管理团队，让你的团队变得热火朝天，就像是，“好吧，我们的流程已经超出了我们的规模。”这没关系，因为这样你就可以了解到，好吧，这就是人们实际上尝试工作的方式，这就是我们实际上可以改进它的方式。

So making those changes as needed helps to make them more sought after and more informed in terms of as you improve the processes.

因此，根据需要进行这些更改有助于在改进流程时使它们更受追捧并且更了解情况。

Katie Dill: One of the things that I've been working on since I worked back at Airbnb was this idea of improving awareness of the things that are happening.

Katie Dill：自从我回到 Airbnb 工作以来，我一直在做的事情之一就是提高人们对正在发生的事情的认识。

What happens at a lot of companies, especially as they grow, is people lose touch with what's happening in different parts of the organization, and everybody's got a doc, their PRD, where they've written down what they've done and it's got tons of words that nobody really understands and keywords for the different projects, and that isn't the best way to lead to clarity.

在很多公司，特别是随着公司的成长，人们对组织不同部分发生的事情失去了联系，每个人都有一个文档，他们的 PRD，他们写下了他们所做的事情，里面有大量没有人真正理解的单词和不同项目的关键字，这不是导致清晰度的最佳方式。

And I'm a strong believer that a picture tells a thousand words and a prototype saves a thousand meetings.

我坚信一张图片可以讲述一千个文字，一个原型可以节省一千次会议。

What we do, and I've been doing it for the last decade or more, is having people within the design team share as a screenshot or a prototype of what they're working on in a shared deck.

我们所做的（我在过去十年或更长时间里一直在做）是让设计团队中的人员在共享平台中以屏幕截图或原型的形式分享他们正在开发的内容。

Katie Dill: And so they add this to a slide, in Google Slides decks every couple of weeks, and we get to see what's happening across the design team.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以他们每隔几周就会将其添加到 Google 幻灯片中的幻灯片中，这样我们就可以了解整个设计团队正在发生的情况。

And this is really important for all the designers because they could see, whether or not they're a team of 10 or 170 or whatever it might be, what is happening, and they can say, "Oh my gosh, you're working on that surface, so am I.

这对所有设计师来说都非常重要，因为他们可以看到，无论他们是一个 10 人还是 170 人的团队，或者其他什么人，正在发生什么，他们可以说，“天哪，你正在那个表面上工作，我也是。

And let's talk about it.

我们来谈谈吧。

Or Oh, that's an interesting pattern, maybe we could use this in more places." And we send it to the product managers and the engineer leaders and the leaders in the company because it is also a really great way for them to understand what's happening and what are we building together.

或者哦，这是一个有趣的模式，也许我们可以在更多地方使用它。”我们将其发送给产品经理、工程师领导和公司领导，因为这也是他们了解正在发生的事情以及我们正在共同构建的内容的好方法。

Because going earlier, as I talked about, the importance of thinking about things as a journey, so what's happening in the marketing side, what's happening in this aspect of the product and seeing how all these pieces really fit together, that has been absolutely one of the things I will take wherever I go, whatever I do, because it has just been a very, very useful tool.

因为正如我之前所说，将事物视为一个旅程的重要性，营销方面发生的事情，产品这方面发生的事情，以及了解所有这些部分如何真正结合在一起，这绝对是我无论走到哪里，无论做什么，都会带上的东西之一，因为它是一个非常非常有用的工具。

Lenny: I remember that at Airbnb, and there's nothing more fun than just looking through a bunch of awesome designs and products that are in motion and in a deck form is so handy, just flip through what's going on around the company, I'm like, "Oh wow, look at this thing.

Lenny：我记得在 Airbnb，没有什么比浏览一堆正在运行的很棒的设计和产品更有趣的了，这些设计和产品以甲板的形式非常方便，只需翻阅公司周围发生的事情，我就想，“哦，哇，看看这个东西。

That's amazing." And it's interesting that ends up in a deck, it feels like Figma would be really good for that too, but somehow decks are still really handy for simple things like that.

这太棒了。”有趣的是，最终出现在甲板上，感觉 Figma 也非常适合这一点，但不知何故，甲板对于这样的简单事情仍然非常方便。

Katie Dill: One of the key pieces is just keeping it really low maintenance.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：关键之一就是保持其低维护成本。

Yes, the design team would definitely prefer that it would be in Figma, but critically I want all functions to be able to look at it.

是的，设计团队肯定更喜欢它在 Figma 中，但最重要的是我希望所有功能都能够查看它。

And if not everybody is on Figma, if they were, that would be great too, but if they're not, it's just flipping through really easy, touch of a button, you can just send it off, it's behaviors that people are really used to and commenting.

如果不是每个人都在 Figma 上，如果他们在，那也很棒，但如果他们没有，只需简单地翻阅一下，按一下按钮，你就可以将其发送出去，这是人们真正习惯和评论的行为。

But maybe one day Figma.

但也许有一天Figma。

Lenny: And the way you do that is it's just like a scheduled call for all designers, add your stuff to this deck and then you email it out every two weeks I think you said?

Lenny：你这样做的方式就像是对所有设计师进行预定的电话会议，将你的东西添加到这个甲板上，然后你每两周通过电子邮件发送一次，我想你是这么说的？

Katie Dill: Yeah, and we experiment with how often we ask folks to share and also the granularity of what they're doing.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的，我们尝试要求人们分享的频率以及他们正在做的事情的粒度。

It is not meant to be a status check.

它并不意味着状态检查。

We're not asking everyone, "Show us what you're doing." It's more of what are the projects that are happening?

我们不会要求每个人“向我们展示你在做什么”。更多的是正在发生的项目是什么？

And we might ask, "Show us the medium and large projects," if there's such, it's too much going on and all of a sudden it's a 200-page deck and no one's going to flip through it.

我们可能会问，“向我们展示中型和大型项目”，如果有这样的项目，那就太多了，突然间它就变成了 200 页的甲板，没有人会翻阅它。

So we have experimented and evolved that depending on the team size, and I think right now we're at monthly sharing of it, and that seems to be working pretty well.

因此，我们根据团队规模进行了实验和改进，我认为现在我们每月共享它，这似乎运作得很好。

It used to be biweekly, which I loved because I really love looking through, but if it's feels like it's a arduous task then it's not succeeding.

它曾经是每两周一次，我很喜欢，因为我真的很喜欢浏览，但如果感觉这是一项艰巨的任务，那么它就不算成功。

Lenny: And especially knowing designers, they'd want to make sure it's the best version of what they've done, and it takes all this extra time to, okay, we got to make this beautiful mock to show working on.

莱尼：尤其是了解设计师，他们希望确保这是他们所做的事情的最佳版本，并且需要所有这些额外的时间，好吧，我们必须制作这个漂亮的模拟来展示工作。

Katie Dill: And actually another part of it that is another benefit of opening up the curtain a little bit of certainly we have to take things seriously in terms of confidential work, it's work in progress, it's not ready to go live, we're not ready to critique all the details about this.

凯蒂·迪尔：实际上，它的另一部分是打开帷幕的另一个好处，当然我们必须认真对待机密工作方面的事情，它的工作正在进行中，还没有准备好上线，我们不准备批评有关这方面的所有细节。

We do need to make it very clear to folks that this is work in progress, but also that it is really beneficial to bring the work out because what isn't great is that you get to the end of the project and people have worked tirelessly on it for some long stretch of time and then find out that, oh my gosh, this is the same project that we're doing over here and this can be completely redundant, or these two things are on a path to collide.

我们确实需要让人们非常清楚，这是一项正在进行的工作，但把工作拿出来确实是有益的，因为不好的是，你到了项目的最后，人们不知疲倦地工作了很长一段时间，然后发现，天哪，这和我们在这里做的项目是同一个项目，这可能是完全多余的，或者这两件事正在发生冲突。

Katie Dill: So we want to know that sooner because it, absolutely, in the end of the day, will make the work better, save time.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以我们想尽快知道这一点，因为它最终绝对会让工作变得更好，节省时间。

And so opening up that curtain and showing the work in progress, it can feel hard at first, but I think people have started to see the benefits in doing that and then usually that will lead to better outcomes in the long run in the culture too.

因此，打开帷幕并展示正在进行的工作，一开始可能会感觉很困难，但我认为人们已经开始看到这样做的好处，从长远来看，通常这也会在文化中带来更好的结果。

Lenny: Going back to this formula you shared, which I love, performance equals potential minus interference, is there an example that comes to mind of helping with the interference where you found that, oh, wow, this is really slowing things down and you change something?

莱尼：回到你分享的这个公式，我喜欢这个公式，性能等于潜力减去干扰，你是否想到了一个帮助消除干扰的例子，你发现，哦，哇，这真的减慢了速度，你改变了一些东西？

Katie Dill: It actually goes back to org design that we talked about earlier and where people sit.

凯蒂·迪尔：这实际上可以追溯到我们之前讨论过的组织设计以及人们坐的位置。

So when I joined Lyft, as I mentioned to you earlier, I was like, oh, I had learned from the experience that I had at Airbnb and I came in needing to transform the organization, and was hopefully much better at it because I had learned so much.

因此，当我加入 Lyft 时，正如我之前向大家提到的，我想，哦，我从 Airbnb 的经历中学到了东西，我需要对组织进行转型，并且希望能做得更好，因为我学到了很多东西。

What actually was going on there is that the way that the team was organized before I got there was that actually physically the design team sat separately.

那里实际发生的情况是，在我到达那里之前，团队的组织方式实际上是设计团队分开坐着的。

They sat in a room that was just beautifully designed, separated from engineering and product and all the other functions by a locked door.

他们坐在一个设计精美的房间里，通过一扇锁着的门与工程和产品以及所有其他功能区分开。

And that was really interesting to see because of course there were a lot of benefits to it, which is that design had this very safe space for creative discovery and exploration and communication, there was work all over the walls, it was wall to wall whiteboards, and it was just absolutely a place where creativity could thrive.

看到这一点真的很有趣，因为它当然有很多好处，那就是设计有一个非常安全的空间来进行创意发现、探索和交流，墙上到处都是工作，都是墙到墙的白板，这绝对是一个创造力可以蓬勃发展的地方。

Lenny: It sounds exactly like the Airbnb situation, by the way.

Lenny：顺便说一句，这听起来和 Airbnb 的情况一模一样。

Katie Dill: The current Airbnb situation or the past?

Katie Dill：Airbnb 的现状还是过去？

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

And absolutely there are a lot of tie-ins to what I had seen.

绝对有很多与我所看到的相关的内容。

And the interesting part about how actually teams were working is that you would see that there was a lot of wasted work and there was a lot of misalignment in what we were trying to do because there was product managers and engineers that were sitting alongside each other making decisions and talking about the work and deciding things, and then designers were sitting over here in this other room and they were working on something, and then they'd meet up and it's like, "That's not aligned.

关于团队实际工作方式的有趣之处在于，你会发现有很多浪费的工作，而且我们想做的事情有很多不一致的地方，因为产品经理和工程师坐在一起做决定，讨论工作和决定事情，然后设计师坐在另一个房间里，他们正在做一些事情，然后他们见面，就像是，“这不一致。

No, that doesn't fit the goal.

不，这不符合目标。

And you went that way, we were supposed to go over this way." And so interference in the sense that it was wasted work, it wasn't actually aligned to the goals, it was slower.

你走了那条路，我们本来应该走这条路。”因此，从某种意义上说，干扰是浪费工作，它实际上与目标不符，速度更慢。

And there were definitely benefits, there was real reasons for doing this, and I know there are companies including Apple that have separation of these things.

这样做肯定有好处，有真正的理由，而且我知道包括苹果在内的一些公司已经将这些东西分开了。

Katie Dill: But I think if you're going into that way of working, there's probably a lot of other decisions you need to make too in terms of the way the teams work.

凯蒂·迪尔：但我认为，如果你要采用这种工作方式，那么在团队工作方式方面，你可能还需要做出很多其他决定。

And so what I was seeing there was just the composite of all these aspects coming together that was not leading to more efficient and less interference.

所以我所看到的只是所有这些方面的综合，并没有带来更高的效率和更少的干扰。

And so what we did was to evolve the way we were working and bring better alignment to the different functions.

因此，我们所做的就是改进我们的工作方式，并更好地协调不同的职能。

Katie Dill: And, again, had done it with an approach about listening and came into that with a better understanding of getting to know the team and getting to know engineering and product and see what our goals were together so that when we were making changes we were making the changes together and we actually were aligned so that on the day that we opened the doors and brought design and product together and had spaces for folks to work together and they actually sat with each other, we still kept the creative space for this is where we'll do grits, this is where we'll do working sessions, this is where the folks that don't work in an embedded fashion we'll sit, but we had the best of both worlds in that way.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：再说一遍，我们采用了倾听的方法来做到这一点，并更好地了解了团队，了解了工程和产品，了解了我们的共同目标，这样当我们做出改变时，我们就一起做出改变，我们实际上是一致的，因此，在我们打开大门，将设计和产品放在一起，并为人们提供了一起工作的空间，他们实际上坐在一起的那天，我们仍然保留了创意空间，因为这就是我们要做粗粒的地方，这就是我们要做的地方。我们将举行工作会议，这是那些不以嵌入式方式工作的人们所坐的地方，但我们以这种方式两全其美。

And so with that alignment of the way that the teams were working together, there was much faster iteration cycles, better clarity on how the work was working, and we still kept and protected that room for creative space, literally the room in terms of figuratively speaking for allowing for creative exploration, but more aligned.

因此，通过团队合作方式的协调，迭代周期更快，工作如何进行更清晰，而且我们仍然保留和保护创意空间的空间，字面意思是允许创意探索的空间，但更加协调一致。

Lenny: And just so I understand, essentially you reorged the teams and not just physically moved people, but you changed the way the product and design and eng team was even organized?

莱尼：据我了解，本质上您重组了团队，而不仅仅是人员搬迁，您还改变了产品、设计和工程团队的组织方式？

Katie Dill: Yes, literally and figuratively we broke down the wall and brought the teams physically together so that they would work together, and then we had an org chart where it's like, okay, these designers are working on driver, these designers are working on rider, these designers are working on the safety team, and then they would sit with their respective engineers and product managers.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：是的，从字面上和比喻上来说，我们打破了围墙，将团队聚集在一起，以便他们能够一起工作，然后我们有一个组织结构图，其中就像，好吧，这些设计师正在研究驾驶员，这些设计师正在研究骑手，这些设计师正在研究安全团队，然后他们将与各自的工程师和产品经理坐在一起。

And then as I talked about earlier, we would come together at key moments to make sure that we as a design function, we're still aligning on shared goals about the overall experience, but also making sure that we could work well with our partners.

正如我之前提到的，我们会在关键时刻聚集在一起，以确保我们作为设计职能部门，仍然在整体体验方面的共同目标保持一致，同时确保我们能够与合作伙伴良好合作。

Lenny: So interesting that that was a recurring pattern at the places you went.

莱尼：太有趣了，这是你去过的地方反复出现的模式。

I imagine Stripe was not like that, there was not all designers sitting in that locked room.

我想 Stripe 不是那样的，并不是所有的设计师都坐在那个锁着的房间里。

Katie Dill: Not in a locked room.

凯蒂·迪尔：不在上锁的房间里。

When I joined Stripe, it was a Zoom universe, so it's a little bit different, but even today we have a studio space where we have all the great tools of craft, and when you do go into the offices, we do have places where designers sit together, especially in the functions that aren't embedded.

当我加入 Stripe 时，这是一个 Zoom 世界，所以有点不同，但即使在今天，我们也有一个工作室空间，里面有所有很棒的工艺工具，当你走进办公室时，我们确实有设计师坐在一起的地方，特别是在未嵌入的功能中。

For example, we have brand and marketing creative, we have the website team, and we have folks that work across all of the things that we do.

例如，我们有品牌和营销创意，我们有网站团队，我们有负责我们所做的所有事情的人员。

And so for sure there usually is some sort of creative space, which I actually think having a physical space for creative discovery and exploration and having that up on the wall, I love that so much.

因此，可以肯定的是，通常会有某种创意空间，我实际上认为拥有一个用于创意发现和探索的物理空间并将其挂在墙上，我非常喜欢。

And I go into the office about halftime now, and I think over time we'll probably build that out more and more, because it is really powerful in addition to having teams sit by the disciplines that they work with every day.

我现在大约在中场休息时进入办公室，我想随着时间的推移，我们可能会越来越多地建立这一点，因为除了让团队遵守他们每天工作的纪律之外，它真的很强大。

Lenny: It reminds me of a quote I have on my wall that I think I found in the Rick Rubin book, but it's by someone else, so I don't know exactly where I found it, but it's the object isn't to make art, it's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable.

莱尼：这让我想起墙上挂着的一句话，我想是在里克·鲁宾的书中找到的，但它是别人写的，所以我不知道我到底是在哪里找到它的，但它的目的不是创造艺术，而是处于一种让艺术不可避免的美妙状态。

Katie Dill: Ooh, that's good.

凯蒂·迪尔：哦，那很好。

I like that very much.

我非常喜欢这一点。

Lenny: By Robert Henry.

莱尼：罗伯特·亨利著。

That's what I try to do in this little podcast studio that we got here.

这就是我在我们这里的这个小型播客工作室中尝试做的事情。

Lenny: Is there anything else that you think would be useful to share either from scaling design teams or broadly?

Lenny：您认为还有什么可以从扩展设计团队或广泛范围内分享的有用信息吗？

Katie Dill: I think one of the other tendencies I see of companies in different stages of their growth is a fear of bold ideas.

凯蒂·迪尔：我认为我看到的处于不同成长阶段的公司的其他倾向之一是害怕大胆的想法。

What happens is that...

发生的事情是……

It can happen at small sizes and then it can happen at large sizes actually, it's just that a fear of shaking things up too much or big ideas with lots of things changing at once are really hard to measure.

它可以在小规模上发生，然后实际上也可以在大规模上发生，只是担心太多的事情发生变化，或者很多事情同时改变的大想法真的很难衡量。

And so actually if we just make an incremental approach, it's very measured and we know what the outcome is going to be, it feels safer, I can get it done in the quarter, and depending on how your performance is managed, that might be more attractive.

因此，实际上，如果我们只是采取渐进的方法，那么它是非常慎重的，我们知道结果会是什么，感觉更安全，我可以在本季度完成它，并且根据您的绩效管理方式，这可能更有吸引力。

And so that is a dangerous tendency, because I think if we go back to what quality means, and you think about it as, well, quality is really your users are the judge of that, and the way that they experience things oftentimes across products, across surface, across time, if you just think about these incremental approaches to the scope of whatever that is that you own, you are very likely not to make the whole thing better.

所以这是一种危险的倾向，因为我认为，如果我们回到质量的含义，你会认为，质量实际上是你的用户的判断，以及他们经常跨产品、跨表面、跨时间体验事物的方式，如果你只考虑这些渐进的方法来处理你所拥有的任何东西的范围，你很可能不会让整个事情变得更好。

Katie Dill: So I think we have to fight against that.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以我认为我们必须与之抗争。

And the way I look at it is, the way I talk about it is reach for the stars and land on the moon.

我看待它的方式是，我谈论它的方式是到达星星并登陆月球。

And what I mean by that is that vision work is really important, and I think sometimes you can get a bad name because you can end up with some folks that are doing vision work that goes nowhere, and they make a beautiful deck and then it gets seated on a shelf and nobody ever builds it.

我的意思是，视觉工作非常重要，我认为有时你可能会得到一个坏名声，因为你最终可能会遇到一些人，他们所做的视觉工作毫无进展，他们做了一个漂亮的甲板，然后它被放在架子上，没有人建造它。

That is not what I'm talking about here, that is not what I recommend, but actually vision work that absolutely does look at the entirety of the experience, a comprehensive approach, a journey approach, and thinks about how these various things may come together to be better, and sketch out the ideal version.

这不是我在这里谈论的，这不是我推荐的，但实际上视觉工作绝对会着眼于整个体验，一种全面的方法，一种旅程方法，并思考如何将这些不同的东西结合在一起变得更好，并勾勒出理想的版本。

And I think Brian Chesky talks about it, I think it was the 11-star experience I think he once said.

我认为 Brian Chesky 谈到了这一点，我认为这是他曾经说过的 11 星级体验。

Lenny: stuff.

莱尼：东西。

That's what we talked about a couple of times in this podcast.

这就是我们在本播客中多次讨论的内容。

Katie Dill: Exactly.

凯蒂·迪尔：没错。

Looking at it as a journey.

将其视为一次旅程。

It's not the five-star approach, it's not the six-star approach, but the 11-star approach, but show what that ideal version is, because if you don't know what that is, what are the chances that you're going to increment yourself to the right outcome in the end?

这不是五星级方法，也不是六星级方法，而是 11 星级方法，但要展示理想版本是什么，因为如果你不知道那是什么，那么你最终将自己提升到正确结果的机会有多大？

And as I talked about before, building the house, you want to see what that picture looks like and how all these pieces come together, and I strongly recommend you want to see what it looks like in an ideal form, because you can always work back from that.

正如我之前谈到的，建造房子时，你想看看那幅画是什么样子，以及所有这些部分是如何组合在一起的，我强烈建议你想看看它以理想的形式是什么样子，因为你总是可以从那里开始工作。

Katie Dill: And so it's like, "Okay, if this is what we want to get to, this is what our product is going to look like in two years, how do we get there?" And what very likely is it's a team effort and various parts of your organization are going to have to own various parts, and maybe we ship this piece first so that we can study it and learn and make sure that the data is good before we move to the next piece, I'm not suggesting you have to ship the whole thing at once, but that North Star lays out the process in a way that I think allows for big risk taking in a way that is measured and thoughtful and actually also feels like progress as you step towards that versus trying to get their day one and likely end up giving up.

凯蒂·迪尔：所以这就像是，“好吧，如果这就是我们想要实现的目标，这就是我们的产品两年后的样子，我们如何实现这一目标？”很可能这是一个团队的努力，你的组织的各个部分将不得不拥有不同的部分，也许我们首先交付这一部分，以便我们可以研究它并学习并确保数据是好的，然后再进行下一部分，我并不是建议你必须立即交付整个事情，但北极星以一种我认为允许以一种经过衡量和深思熟虑的方式承担大风险的方式来安排流程，并且当你朝着这一目标迈进而不是试图获得成功时，实际上也感觉像是进步。一个，很可能最终会放弃。

Lenny: I love that, reach for the stars, land on the moon.

莱尼：我喜欢这样，摘星，登上月球。

That could be a metaphor for so many things.

这可以比喻很多事情。

Let me try to squeeze in one more tactical tip for people listening.

让我尝试为听众提供更多的战术提示。

If someone's hiring a designer, so someone that's not a designer, just a founder of product team, what should you look for that may be a red flag or something that you want to look for to feel good that they're going to be a good fit?

如果有人正在招聘设计师，那么这个人不是设计师，只是产品团队的创始人，你应该寻找什么可能是危险信号或你想要寻找的东西，让他们感觉良好，他们会很适合？

Katie Dill: The key, I think, to keep in mind is it's easier to teach tools and process than it is taste and character, so I would certainly pay a lot of attention to that.

凯蒂·迪尔：我认为要记住的关键是，教授工具和过程比教授品味和性格更容易，所以我肯定会对此给予很多关注。

Their hit rate for great judgment and great taste, and how they've honed that, even if they're not very experienced, just to see do they have that natural inclination for great things.

他们的判断力和品味的命中率，以及他们如何磨练这一点，即使他们经验不足，只是为了看看他们是否有对伟大事物的自然倾向。

The other piece of it is that certainly you want to find somebody with great talent, for sure, and high craft, but you...

另一方面，你当然想找到一个才华横溢、工艺精湛的人，但你……

Katie Dill: Talent, for sure, and high craft, but you also want to find somebody that's humble.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：天赋，当然，还有高超的技艺，但你也想找到一个谦虚的人。

Folks that are really good at what they do aren't always, but humility is a really important part.

真正擅长自己所做的事情的人并不总是如此，但谦逊是一个非常重要的部分。

I think it's a really important part for anybody on a team because if you're working on a team, you need to work together.

我认为这对于团队中的任何人来说都是非常重要的部分，因为如果你在团队中工作，你需要一起工作。

And it is important that they have that respect and empathy and understanding and enthusiasm for the folks around them, but also the users.

重要的是，他们对周围的人以及用户抱有尊重、同理心、理解和热情。

Humility means that they're going to pay more attention to what the users are saying and hopefully be curious about what's working and what's not, and strive to navigate these things to make it better.

谦虚意味着他们将更多地关注用户所说的内容，并希望对哪些有效、哪些无效感到好奇，并努力引导这些事情以使其变得更好。

The last piece would just be hustle or chutzpah.

最后一块就是喧嚣或肆无忌惮。

I'm not sure exactly what's the right way to put it, but the design and the creative functions is the act of creation.

我不确定正确的说法是什么，但设计和创意功能就是创造的行为。

Katie Dill: And it's scary.

凯蒂·迪尔：这很可怕。

To take a blank piece of paper and propose something that you think is better, is scary.

拿着一张白纸提出你认为更好的东西是可怕的。

To have the courage to say, "This is not good enough and we should do it again," is scary.

有勇气说：“这还不够好，我们应该再做一次”，这是可怕的。

Having somebody that has that courage inside them to fight for great is pretty important.

拥有一个有勇气为伟大而奋斗的人是非常重要的。

And that hustle to try to execute on that rapidly is, of course, essential as you're hiring at any stage company.

当然，在任何阶段的公司招聘员工时，努力快速执行这一任务都是至关重要的。

Katie Dill: Lastly, I think you were asking in particular, especially with younger companies or with startups, I think one thing that can be hard, it's like do you hire a more junior doer or a more senior thinker/operator?

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：最后，我认为你特别问，特别是对于年轻的公司或初创公司，我认为有一件事可能很困难，就像你雇佣一个更初级的实干家还是更高级的思想家/操作员？

It's like if you had all the money in the world, all of it.

就像你拥有世界上所有的钱一样。

But I do think in your early stages you probably do need a doer, but it is important to also have that lens of how do you build an organization that's user-focused and the way that they operate and the way that they work together, and bringing a strategy that will help to be user-focused from the start.

但我确实认为，在你的早期阶段，你可能确实需要一个实干家，但重要的是，你还必须了解如何建立一个以用户为中心的组织，以及他们的运作方式和合作方式，并制定有助于从一开始就以用户为中心的策略。

Maybe a great way of doing that is having a more senior leader, design advisor, and then a kind of executor or doer full-time on the team.

也许做到这一点的一个好方法是在团队中拥有一位更高级的领导者、设计顾问，然后是全职执行者或实干家。

Lenny: That's a really cool tip.

莱尼：这是一个非常酷的建议。

On the craft and taste piece, a lot of times people don't have that themselves necessarily.

在工艺和品味方面，很多时候人们自己不一定具备。

Any tip for how to measure that?

有什么关于如何测量的提示吗？

Is there a book you'd recommend or trick?

有什么可以推荐的书或者窍门吗？

Or is it just trust your judgment and does this feel great to you?

或者只是相信你的判断，这对你来说感觉很棒吗？

Katie Dill: It's contingent on what is the thing, what is the user need?

Katie Dill：这取决于事情是什么，用户需要什么？

Something that is really great, we do a lot of tools that we strive to make them power tools for our users.

这是一件非常棒的事情，我们做了很多工具，努力使它们成为我们用户的强大工具。

And a lot of times that means dense information that is still easily accessible, but will definitely feel different than perhaps a consumer product that is meant to be extremely light and sparse and directive to one individual thing at a time.

很多时候，这意味着仍然可以轻松访问密集的信息，但感觉肯定会不同于消费产品，消费产品应该非常轻、稀疏，一次只针对一件事情。

So it really depends on the context of the product sometimes.

所以有时这确实取决于产品的背景。

That's why it's hard to kind of quote an individual book.

这就是为什么很难引用某本书的原因。

But yeah, I can think on it and we can put it in the show notes.

但是，是的，我可以考虑一下，我们可以把它写在演出笔记中。

There are definitely books that talk about the principles of great design and we can look at that.

肯定有一些书籍谈论伟大设计的原则，我们可以看看。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll link to extra books that come to mind after.

我们将链接到之后想到的其他书籍。

One other question I wanted to ask is, what's a favorite project that y'all have worked on at Stripe?

我想问的另一个问题是，你们在 Stripe 做过的最喜欢的项目是什么？

Katie Dill: Oh yeah, we got a good one that I'm so excited about.

凯蒂·迪尔：哦，是的，我们得到了一个很好的，我对此感到非常兴奋。

First off, I don't know if everybody knows this, but Stripe prints books.

首先，我不知道大家是否知道这一点，Stripe 印刷书籍。

Stripe Press, we print books that are, we consider, ideas of progress.

Stripe Press，我们印刷的书籍是我们认为的进步理念。

It's our intention of bringing great ideas out there.

我们的目的是提出伟大的想法。

Most of them don't have anything to do with financial infrastructure.

其中大多数与金融基础设施无关。

It might be any number of interesting problems and opportunities of things and ideas that people have talked about.

这可能是人们谈论过的许多有趣的问题、事物和想法的机会。

Lenny: I have many of them in my background here.

莱尼：我的背景中有很多这样的人。

I'm a huge fan of Stripe Press.

我是 Stripe Press 的超级粉丝。

Katie Dill: Nice.

凯蒂·迪尔：很好。

And we take great care to deliver these ideas of progress and books that hopefully feel beautiful.

我们非常小心地传递这些进步的想法和希望感觉美好的书籍。

We have a new book coming up that you can pre-order now, and it is Poor Charlie's Almanac.

我们即将推出一本新书，您现在就可以预订，它就是《穷查理宝典》。

It's actually-

其实是——

Katie Dill: You did?

凯蒂·迪尔：你做到了？

I actually excited to hear that.

听到这个我真的很兴奋。

Katie Dill: It's a fascinating book.

凯蒂·迪尔：这是一本引人入胜的书。

It's 20 years old.

已经20岁了。

It's actually Charlie Munger's words, but Peter Kaufman, a friend and a colleague of his, assembled all of these documents over the years of things that Charlie had written and said and put it into this kind of anthology.

这实际上是查理·芒格的话，但他的朋友兼同事彼得·考夫曼将查理多年来所写、所说的所有这些文件汇总起来，放入这样的选集中。

And so this book is really fascinating and it's not really a linear story so much.

所以这本书真的很有趣，而且它并不是一个线性的故事。

We have reprinted this book.

我们已经重印了这本书。

We created a teaser site that I strongly recommend you all check out.

我们创建了一个预告网站，我强烈建议大家都查看一下。

It's really, really fun.

这真的非常非常有趣。

Lenny: Oh, man, it's unreal.

莱尼：噢，伙计，这太不真实了。

I remember when you launched that.

我记得你启动它的时候。

I was like, "It just keeps going and gets crazier and wilder and amazing." I don't even know how that's possible on a website.

我当时想，“它就这样继续下去，变得越来越疯狂、越来越狂野、越来越令人惊奇。”我什至不知道这在网站上怎么可能。

Katie Dill: It's pretty awesome.

凯蒂·迪尔：太棒了。

Our website team is...

我们的网站团队是...

We talked about the importance of design and engineering working super closely together.

我们讨论了设计和工程紧密合作的重要性。

It's just like that.

就是这样。

That art and science coming together into something that hopefully is fun and engaging and people want to pursue it.

艺术和科学结合在一起，成为一种有趣且引人入胜的东西，人们想要追求它。

So the book will be coming out soon and we're working on an update to the site that we're really, really thrilled about, so you can read the book online in a special way.

这本书很快就会出版，我们正在对网站进行更新，我们对此感到非常非常兴奋，这样您就可以以特殊的方式在线阅读这本书。

So yeah, very big fan of this.

所以是的，非常喜欢这个。

Lenny: What's the website for folks?

莱尼：大家的网站是什么？

Do you happen to have the URL?

你有网址吗？

Otherwise, we'll link to it in the show notes for

否则，我们将在演出注释中链接到它

Katie Dill: The book.

凯蒂·迪尔：这本书。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

It is press.stripe.com will be where you can see all the books that we have at Stripe Press.

您可以在 press.stripe.com 上查看 Stripe Press 拥有的所有书籍。

And I believe the first one in the line...

我相信队列中的第一个......

And actually what you'll see in the website is that we originally had a typical buying model of the squares outlined.

实际上，您将在网站中看到的是，我们最初有一个典型的方形购买模型。

One of the things that we sought to do with the website is to consider what would be a great experience for understanding different books.

我们试图通过该网站做的事情之一是考虑什么是理解不同书籍的绝佳体验。

And when you go into a bookstore and you see the spines of the books and you pick them up and you turn them around and you look at them.

当你走进一家书店，你看到书的书脊，你就把它们捡起来，然后把它们翻过来，然后看它们。

And so that's actually what you will...

所以这实际上就是你会...

I should stop describing it.

我应该停止描述它。

Just go and check it out and you'll see we sought to deliver this work in a way that would be aligned with what a reader would want to pursue.

只要去检查一下，您就会发现我们试图以一种符合读者想要追求的方式来交付这项工作。

Lenny: I can't help but ask, but how did that even come together?

莱尼：我忍不住要问，但是这是怎么结合到一起的呢？

Was it just like this passion project of like, "This book's coming out, I just want to invest a bunch of time resources into this?" Or how does that happen at Stripe?

是不是就像这个充满激情的项目一样，“这本书即将出版，我只是想为此投入大量时间资源？”或者在 Stripe 是如何发生这种情况的？

Katie Dill: Stripe's mission is to increase the GDP of the internet.

Katie Dill：Stripe 的使命是增加互联网的 GDP。

We strive to build global economic prosperity because that's greater access across the globe.

我们努力建设全球经济繁荣，因为全球范围内有更多的机会。

But there's more ways to do that than financial infrastructure.

但除了金融基础设施之外，还有更多方法可以做到这一点。

Financial infrastructure is absolutely a major part of that.

金融基础设施绝对是其中的重要组成部分。

It is like the lifeblood of businesses, and it enables them to accomplish more.

它就像企业的命脉，它使他们能够取得更大的成就。

But this notion of ideas of progress is another angle into that.

但这种进步思想的概念是另一个角度。

While it might not be our core business, it is very much aligned with our mission.

虽然这可能不是我们的核心业务，但它与我们的使命非常一致。

And so yes, it takes time, but we feel that it's important for what we're setting out to do.

是的，这需要时间，但我们认为这对于我们要做的事情很重要。

And it also relates to the pursuit of creativity and excellence.

这也与对创造力和卓越的追求有关。

It is a part of our identity.

这是我们身份的一部分。

It is a part of who we feel we are or we strive to be, and we're excited to share that with people.

这是我们自我感觉或努力成为的一部分，我们很高兴与人们分享这一点。

It's in some ways how they get to know us and they get to see the care that we put into any number of things.

在某些方面，他们是如何了解我们的，也是他们看到我们对许多事情的关心的。

Lenny: Katie, is there anything else you want to share or touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

莱尼：凯蒂，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或谈及的吗？

Katie Dill: We talked a little bit about the importance of different disciplines and the importance of quality being a group effort.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我们讨论了不同学科的重要性以及团队努力的质量重要性。

I hope this doesn't insult my function, as I say, but at the core, design is simply intention.

正如我所说，我希望这不会侮辱我的功能，但从本质上讲，设计只是意图。

You're bringing intentionality to the decisions that you make in thinking about who is this thing for.

当你思考这个东西是为谁而做的决定时，你会带着意向性。

If you're designing a doorknob, let's say, and it's like, "Does the doorknob speak to whether or not I'm going to push or pull or turn?

如果你正在设计一个门把手，比如说，“门把手是否表明我是否要推、拉或转动？

Is it comfortable in the hand?

拿在手上舒服吗？

Is it easy to manufacture?

制造容易吗？

Is it easy to put on and remove?" These are some of the intentional decisions one could make, whether or not they're a designer, an engineer, the product person, any old function can put that intentionality.

穿脱容易吗？”这些是人们可以做出的一些有意的决定，无论他们是设计师、工程师、产品人员，任何旧功能都可以做出这种意向性。

Katie Dill: If you think about who is impacted by this, who is using this?

凯蒂·迪尔：如果你想一下谁会受到此影响，谁在使用它？

And that literally could be anything from designing a doorknob to designing your org structure to designing your strategy.

从字面上看，这可以是任何东西，从设计门把手到设计你的组织结构再到设计你的策略。

Obviously, great design is also creative, and it also is demonstrated with great taste for what is beauty.

显然，伟大的设计也是创造性的，并且也体现了对美的高品味。

Of course, that's where I would say that design expertise with people that have these creative skills and this great taste is an incredible important thing to bring into the organization.

当然，我想说的是，将具有这些创造性技能和这种伟大品味的人的设计专业知识带入组织是一件非常重要的事情。

Day one, everybody can bring more care and intentionality, and I think that will result in better outcomes, internally and externally, in the long run.

第一天，每个人都可以带来更多的关怀和意愿，我认为从长远来看，这将在内部和外部带来更好的结果。

Katie Dill: I think your podcast is a great example of great craft and great quality.

凯蒂·迪尔：我认为你的播客是伟大工艺和卓越品质的一个很好的例子。

I was just saying this to my husband the other day, as I was talking about doing this.

前几天我刚刚对我丈夫说了这句话，当时我正在谈论这样做。

It's just like, your podcasts...

就像，你的播客......

There's more usable learning per minute than most.

每分钟可学到的有用知识比大多数人都多。

I don't know if that's a metric that you're measuring, but I love how you don't have your guests tell about their background.

我不知道这是否是您正在衡量的一个指标，但我喜欢您不让客人讲述他们的背景。

Because when someone tells about their background, that is interesting, but it's not really usable information.

因为当有人讲述他们的背景时，这很有趣，但这并不是真正有用的信息。

It's like, "I can take this information and run with it and then bring it to my own team and make my work better." You have clearly thought about that.

就像，“我可以获取这些信息并使用它，然后将其带给我自己的团队，使我的工作变得更好。”你已经清楚地考虑过这一点。

Well, I don't know if that's why you made that decision.

嗯，我不知道这是否就是你做出这个决定的原因。

Katie Dill: Okay, great.

凯蒂·迪尔：好的，太好了。

I also love the way that you set these things up.

我也喜欢你设置这些东西的方式。

You had said to me, in the thing that you set me, it's just like, "If it's not good, we're not going to ship it." And you set it in very nice ways, by the way.

你对我说过，在你给我设置的事情中，就像是，“如果不好，我们就不会发货。”顺便说一句，你以非常好的方式设置它。

But at first I had this like, "Oh gosh, what if it's not good?" But I also had this moment of like, "Well, that's pretty great because if it's not good, he's not going to embarrass me to the rest of the world, hopefully." And I love that because that was that courage that I was talking about earlier, too, of that you're not going to let bad go out, because you know that each one of these little things will end up leading to a belief of the level of quality of what somebody can rely on getting when they listen to your podcast.

但一开始我的想法是，“天啊，如果它不好怎么办？”但我也有这样的时刻，“好吧，这非常棒，因为如果不好，希望他不会让我在世界其他地方感到尴尬。”我喜欢这一点，因为这也是我之前谈到的勇气，你不会让不好的事情消失，因为你知道这些小事中的每一件小事最终都会导致人们相信当他们听你的播客时可以信赖的质量水平。

Again, one workout isn't going to be a six-pack, but every one of those things will end up leading to better quality overall.

再说一遍，一次锻炼不可能练出六块腹肌，但每一项锻炼最终都会带来更好的整体质量。

I don't know, kudos to you.

我不知道，谢谢你。

You're nailing it.

你正在搞定它。

So great.

太棒了。

Lenny: Katie, what a nice way to end it.

莱尼：凯蒂，这是一个多么好的结束方式啊。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

That's exactly how I think about it, actually.

事实上，我就是这么想的。

You cracked my whole strategy of just making it as concretely useful as possible.

你破解了我的整个策略，即让它尽可能具体有用。

I was actually on David Perell's podcast recently and he had this really good way of describing this, which is exactly what I've tried to do, but I haven't put my words into it of make it as useful as possible per minute without removing the humanity.

事实上，我最近参加了大卫·佩雷尔的播客，他用一种非常好的方式来描述这一点，这正是我试图做的，但我并没有把我的话放进去，让它每分钟尽可能有用，而不消除人性。

And I realized that's what I do, is I could cut all the stories of everyone's backgrounds, but that sucks.

我意识到这就是我所做的，我可以剪掉每个人背景的所有故事，但这很糟糕。

It's optimize for value and concrete, tactical advice, but also make it fun and human and interesting.

它针对价值和具体的战术建议进行了优化，但也使其变得有趣、人性化和有趣。

Lenny: So thank you for the kind words.

莱尼：谢谢你的客气话。

And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got a number of questions for you.

我有很多问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Okay, let's do it.

莱尼：好吧，我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Katie Dill: One, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

凯蒂·迪尔：一，如何赢得朋友并影响人们。

It's an oldie but a goodie.

这是一个老东西，但一个好东西。

I forget how many years old it is, but many, many decades.

我忘记了多少年了，但是很多很多几十年了。

I think it was in the 1930s?

我记得那是在20世纪30年代？

The cover is funny.

封面很搞笑。

You might be embarrassed to read it on a bus, I don't know.

我不知道你在公共汽车上读这本书可能会感到尴尬。

But the learnings from it are timeless, and I've actually read it four times and I can always do for another because it is a great reminder of just how important the way you articulate things are.

但从中学到的东西是永恒的，我实际上已经读了四遍了，而且我总是可以再读一遍，因为它很好地提醒了我，表达事物的方式是多么重要。

And not in a negative or gross kind of way, but people care first and foremost about themselves.

并不是以消极或粗俗的方式，但人们首先关心的是自己。

That's the body that they're within, that is the context that they're within.

这就是他们所在的身体，这就是他们所在的环境。

Recognizing that can be really powerful as you think about leading teams, as you think about working with other people, as you think about being a good spouse, whatever it might be.

当你思考领导团队时，当你思考与他人合作时，当你思考成为一个好配偶时，无论是什么，认识到这一点都非常强大。

I'm a big fan of that one.

我是那个人的忠实粉丝。

Katie Dill: The other one is a newer book, I think actually still a couple of years old.

凯蒂·迪尔：另一本是一本较新的书，我认为实际上还有几年的历史。

It's about the Wright Brothers by David McCullough, I think.

我想这是关于大卫·麦卡洛的莱特兄弟的故事。

I've been learning how to fly, and so I'm very obsessed with this, but I think it's a book that's relevant to everybody.

我一直在学习如何飞行，所以我对此非常着迷，但我认为这是一本与每个人都相关的书。

Especially even entrepreneurs, because it just talks about the impossible challenge of nobody thought it could be done.

尤其是企业家，因为它只是谈论无人认为可以完成的不可能的挑战。

Even the American Institute of Science didn't think it could be done.

就连美国科学院也认为做不到。

And these individuals that had the resolve and the commitment to make it happen.

这些人有决心和承诺来实现这一目标。

I think also the power of this beautiful partnership.

我也认为这种美好伙伴关系的力量。

Of course, they're brothers.

当然，他们是兄弟。

That doesn't always mean you get along, but they're brothers and they did, and it's a beautiful story.

这并不总是意味着你们相处得很好，但他们是兄弟，而且他们确实相处得很好，这是一个美丽的故事。

Big, big, big fan of that.

非常非常非常喜欢这个。

Katie Dill: And then third book, I would just say is...

凯蒂·迪尔：然后第三本书，我想说的是......

Actually, I brought it over because I knew you were going to ask me this question.

事实上，我把它带过来是因为我知道你会问我这个问题。

I don't know if you could read that, but The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse.

我不知道你是否能读懂，但是《男孩、鼹鼠、狐狸和马》。

This book was given to me by Jenny Yarden, which I think you may know.

这本书是珍妮·亚登送给我的，我想你可能知道。

It's wonderful.

太棒了。

It's a beautiful story.

这是一个美丽的故事。

It makes you laugh, it teaches you a thing or two, and one of the best quotes in it is, "One of our greatest freedoms is how we react to things."

它让你发笑，它教会你一两件事，其中最好的引言之一是，“我们最大的自由之一就是我们对事物的反应方式。”

Lenny: What is a recent favorite movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：你最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Katie Dill: Oppenheimer was amazing.

凯蒂·迪尔：奥本海默太棒了。

And TV show?

还有电视剧？

Shrinking.

收缩。

And that one was really good, and it actually really surprised me how funny and positive it was, because the trailer for it does not give that impression.

那个真的很好，它的有趣和积极让我感到非常惊讶，因为它的预告片并没有给人那种印象。

But it was really good.

但这真的很好。

Lenny: I've not seen that.

莱尼：我没见过。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Katie Dill: Tell me what work you are most proud of.

凯蒂·迪尔：告诉我你最自豪的工作是什么。

And the reason I ask that is because it helps me understand their taste and their judgment, what motivates them, what work they view as good and as a good outcome.

我之所以这么问，是因为这有助于我了解他们的品味和判断力、他们的动机是什么、他们认为什么工作是好的以及好的结果。

It also helps me understand a little bit about what they like to do and where their gravity pulls them.

它还可以帮助我了解一些他们喜欢做什么以及他们的重力将他们拉到哪里。

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you recently discovered, be it an app or physical thing?

Lenny：您最近发现了最喜欢的产品吗？无论是应用程序还是实体产品？

Anything?

有什么吗？

Katie Dill: Yeah.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的。

As a parent, you should definitely know the Toniebox.

作为家长，您一定应该了解 Toniebox。

Lenny: Ooh, I don't don't know this.

莱尼：哦，我不知道这个。

The Toniebox?

托尼盒子？

Katie Dill: It's so good.

凯蒂·迪尔：太好了。

The Toniebox.

托尼盒子。

I should have brought it over, too.

我也应该把它带过来。

So it's like a squishy box, but it's a speaker.

所以它就像一个柔软的盒子，但它是一个扬声器。

And your kids can control it.

您的孩子可以控制它。

And the way they control it is these little figurines.

他们控制它的方式就是这些小雕像。

This is also a brilliant product because you want to buy all these figurines.

这也是一款出色的产品，因为您想购买所有这些雕像。

But the little figurines, it could be like Belle from Beauty and the Beast or Elsa from Frozen, and they place the figurine on top and that activates the stories that the thing reads to you or the songs that it plays for you.

但是小雕像，可能就像《美女与野兽》中的贝儿或《冰雪奇缘》中的艾莎，他们将小雕像放在上面，激活它为你读的故事或为你播放的歌曲。

You can record your own voice so that you're telling stories to your child.

您可以录制自己的声音，以便给孩子讲故事。

And they control it all by themselves and they can drop it on the floor and it's all good.

他们自己控制这一切，他们可以把它扔到地板上，这一切都很好。

But the Toniebox, pretty awesome.

但是 Toniebox 非常棒。

Lenny: I just texted my wife to check this out so I don't forget.

莱尼：我刚刚给我妻子发短信询问此事，以免忘记。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Great.

太棒了。

Very handy and timely.

非常方便和及时。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you'd like to share, come back to, find meaningful?

您有最喜欢的人生格言吗？您愿意与人分享、回顾并发现它有意义吗？

Katie Dill: I don't say this out loud, but I've had it as a Post-It in my jewelry box and that I see regularly.

凯蒂·迪尔：我不会大声说出来，但我把它作为便利贴放在我的珠宝盒里，而且我经常看到。

Tomorrow is today.

明天就是今天。

And what I mean by that is that so often I will in my head be like, "I'll do that tomorrow.

我的意思是，我常常会在脑海中这样想：“我明天就这么做。

I'll eat better tomorrow.

明天我会吃得更好。

I'll think about that vision tomorrow.

明天我会考虑这个愿景。

I'll communicate better expectations tomorrow." And it's like those joke signs that "Free beer tomorrow." Because very easily, tomorrow just always moves on.

明天我会传达更好的期望。”这就像那些笑话标语“明天有免费啤酒。”因为很容易，明天总是会继续下去。

And I needed to remind myself that it's actually, it is now today.

我需要提醒自己，实际上就是现在。

Tomorrow is now today.

明天就是今天。

Lenny: I love that one.

莱尼：我喜欢那个。

I feel like I need to take all these mottoes, which are amazing.

我觉得我需要接受所有这些令人惊叹的座右铭。

I love this question that I just invented.

我喜欢我刚刚发明的这个问题。

And just put them all on my wall here in this office.

然后把它们全部贴在我办公室的墙上。

Katie Dill: Yes, that's a great idea.

凯蒂·迪尔：是的，这是个好主意。

You should make a book.

你应该出一本书。

Book of Lenny Mottoes.

莱尼座右铭书。

Lenny: Oh, man.

莱尼：哦，伙计。

The Tribe of Mentors version of Lenny's podcast.

莱尼播客的导师部落版本。

Lenny: Is there a lesson that your mom or dad taught you that has really stuck with you, especially as a newish parent?

莱尼：你的妈妈或爸爸教给你的教训有没有让你印象深刻，特别是作为一个新手父母？

Katie Dill: I think about this a lot.

凯蒂·迪尔：我经常思考这个问题。

I am a mom of twin girls, and I feel so lucky that my parents raised me to see that accomplishment is based on merit and hard work.

我是一对双胞胎女孩的妈妈，我感到很幸运，因为我的父母抚养我长大，让我看到成就是基于优点和努力的。

They never made me feel like because I was small and that I was not as strong as somebody, whatever it might be, that I wasn't able.

他们从来没有让我觉得因为我很小，我没有别人那么坚强，无论是什么，我都做不到。

My dad had me chopping wood and mixing cement as a young kid, and that certainly led me in one part to be a designer, but also to be able to pursue leadership.

当我还是个小孩子的时候，我父亲就让我砍木头、搅拌水泥，这无疑让我成为了一名设计师，同时也让我能够追求领导力。

Even though sometimes I'm comfortable willing to be in the room where I am vastly outnumbered by people that don't look like me or just not letting that hold me back.

尽管有时我很乐意呆在一个房间里，那里的人数量远远多于我，但那些看起来不像我的人或者只是不让这阻碍我。

Katie Dill: And actually, I thought about that the other day because I was riding in a Lyft to the airport.

凯蒂·迪尔：实际上，有一天我想到了这一点，因为我乘坐 Lyft 去机场。

This was also at 4:00 AM, so it was a really hard time to be in a Lyft to gone to the airport.

这也是凌晨 4:00，所以乘坐 Lyft 去机场真的很困难。

The driver was telling me about his kids, and actually he had twins.

司机告诉我他的孩子，实际上他有双胞胎。

It was one boy and one girl, and so we were talking about twins.

这是一男一女，所以我们谈论的是双胞胎。

He's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, my girl, she's my princess.

他就像，“是啊，是啊，是啊，我的女孩，她是我的公主。

My son doesn't understand why I don't let her take out the garbage and why her job is to sweep and that's his job." He's like, "I'm not going to let her take out the garbage." I was sitting in the back of the car wondering, "Should I tell him, you're screwing it up?"

我儿子不明白为什么我不让她倒垃圾，为什么她的工作是扫地，而这就是他的工作。”他说，“我不会让她倒垃圾。”我坐在车后座上想，“我应该告诉他，你把事情搞砸了吗？”

Katie Dill: Just because she's a female doesn't mean that she's not able to do the jobs, even the hard ones and even the bad ones taking off the trash.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：仅仅因为她是女性，并不意味着她不能做这些工作，即使是艰难的工作，甚至是清理垃圾的坏工作。

I really do think that I'm so fortunate that that was never the way that my parents were looking at it.

我确实认为我很幸运，我的父母从来没有这么看我。

Now, today, I feel like that is very much a part of a little bit of my chutzpah and willingness to step out there because I hadn't been held back from those hard jobs earlier.

现在，今天，我觉得这在很大程度上是我的一点点放肆和愿意走出去的一部分，因为我之前没有因为那些艰苦的工作而受到阻碍。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You mentioned that you fly planes, and this is actually related to my last question.

你提到你开飞机，这其实和我上一个问题有关。

I guess one that I was going to ask if that's true, you mentioned it is true.

我想我想问这是否属实，你提到这是真的。

Is there a lesson that you've taken from learning to fly and flying that you've brought into product, leadership, design?

您是否从学习飞行中吸取了教训并将其带入产品、领导力和设计中？

Anything come to mind?

有什么想到的吗？

Katie Dill: First of all, learning to fly has been such an amazing experience because there haven't been many things in my adult life where you feel like yourself going from knowing nothing about something and being able to do something, and what an incredible journey that is.

凯蒂·迪尔：首先，学习飞行是一次令人惊奇的经历，因为在我的成年生活中，没有多少事情让你感觉自己从对某事一无所知到能够做某事，这是一次多么令人难以置信的旅程。

Whether it's learning a language or whatever, that is awesome and highly recommended.

无论是学习语言还是其他什么，这都很棒并且强烈推荐。

But one of the key things that has definitely sat with me from the experience of learning how to fly that I definitely thought about how to bring it into my work is that when I was getting to the stage of being able to do things myself...

但是，从学习如何飞行的经历中，让我印象深刻的关键事情之一是，我确实考虑过如何将其带入我的工作中，那就是当我达到能够自己做事的阶段时......

My instructor is sitting there next to me and usually is right there at the controls with me, so if something goes wrong when I'm flying, he's right there.

我的教练坐在我旁边，通常就在我身边控制，所以如果我飞行时出现问题，他就在那里。

Katie Dill: I remember one of the first times when I was learning how to land where he moved his seat back.

凯蒂·迪尔（Katie Dill）：我记得有一次我第一次学习如何降落在他把座位向后移的地方。

A lot.

很多。

And so he was now out of touch with the controls.

所以他现在已经脱离了控制装置。

He could jump there if he needed to, but he really pulled back.

如果需要的话他可以跳到那里，但他真的退缩了。

And it was such an incredible visceral experience.

这是一次令人难以置信的发自内心的体验。

I was like, "He trusts me.

我当时想，“他信任我。

Right now, he is showing his faith in me to take this and take this challenge on." And I think about that all the time.

现在，他对我表现出了信心，相信我能够接受这个挑战。”我一直在思考这一点。

It's just like, "How can I show my team, people I work with, my support and trust in them to take that challenge on?" I can't always move my seat back, but what might be the way?

就像，“我如何向我的团队、与我一起工作的人展示我对他们接受挑战的支持和信任？”我总是无法将座椅向后移动，但有什么办法呢？

And so that's been a pretty great example of something I want to pull forward.

这是我想要推动的一个很好的例子。

Lenny: That is an awesome metaphor.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的比喻。

I feel like this whole episode is just full of beautiful metaphors.

我觉得整个情节充满了美丽的隐喻。

Also, just full of beauty.

而且，简直就是充满了美丽。

Katie, thank you so much for being here.

凯蒂，非常感谢你来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find online if they want to reach out and maybe ask some questions?

如果人们想要联系并询问一些问题，可以在哪里找到在线信息？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Katie Dill: First off, please do find me online because, as I talked about, we are in the pursuit of trying to build excellent things and it's always a work in progress, and so I'm always interested to learn how others do it and see how we can improve our own methods.

Katie Dill：首先，请在网上找到我，因为正如我所说，我们一直在追求打造优秀的东西，而且这始终是一项正在进行的工作，因此我总是有兴趣了解其他人是如何做到的，并了解我们如何改进自己的方法。

I am Lil_Dill on Twitter, and then I think that name was taken on Threads, so I'm Lil_Dilly, with a Y, on Threads, and then I'm on LinkedIn and find me there.

我在 Twitter 上的名字是 Lil_Dill，然后我认为这个名字是在 Threads 上使用的，所以我在 Threads 上的名字是 Lil_Dilly，带有 Y，然后我在 LinkedIn 上找到了我。

We're hiring, so definitely reach out at our job board, too.

我们正在招聘，所以也请务必联系我们的求职委员会。

Stripe.com/jobs.

Stripe.com/jobs。

Definitely check us out.

一定要来看看我们。

We definitely would love to hear from you.

我们非常乐意听取您的意见。

Lenny: Katie.

莱尼：凯蒂。

Again, thank you so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。