'Inside Linear: Building with taste, craft, and focus | Karri Saarinen (co-founder, designer, CEO)'

Karri Saarinen: My belief is that, like any domain or industry, the more it matters, the more the design matters.

Karri Saarinen：我的信念是，就像任何领域或行业一样，它越重要，设计就越重要。

What happens is whenever there's a new paradigm, I don't know, like the mobile or the web or something the first iterations of those products existing there, they don't have to be super well designed necessarily because they are the first.

每当出现一个新的范式时，我不知道会发生什么，比如移动或网络或现有这些产品的第一次迭代，它们不一定要经过精心设计，因为它们是第一个。

Karri Saarinen: Then, as you build the 100,000 different email clients, any email client now has to be pretty good to be even considered an email client.

Karri Saarinen：然后，当您构建 100,000 个不同的电子邮件客户端时，现在任何电子邮件客户端都必须非常好才能被视为电子邮件客户端。

It's like the bar is so high.

好像门槛这么高。

I think today it's almost a very basic thing now.

我认为今天这几乎是一件非常基本的事情。

Pretty much from the very beginning, you need pretty high level design for people to even pay attention or consider you seriously.

几乎从一开始，您就需要相当高水平的设计，以便人们能够注意到或认真考虑您。

Lenny: Today my guest is Karri Saarinen.

莱尼：今天我的客人是卡里·沙里宁。

Karri was the founding designer at Coinbase, principal designer at Airbnb, co-founder of two previous startups, and most recently is the co-founder and CEO of Linear, which I'm fairly confident is the fastest growing and most beloved issue tracking tool in the world and something that a growing number of product teams are using to build their own product.

Karri 是 Coinbase 的创始设计师、Airbnb 的首席设计师、之前两家初创公司的联合创始人，最近担任 Linear 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，我相当有信心它是世界上发展最快、最受欢迎的问题跟踪工具，并且越来越多的产品团队正在使用它来构建自己的产品。

Lenny: Karri and his team are building their company and their product in a really unique way with a huge focus on craft and quality, no AB tests, no metrics-based goals, instead a focus on taste and opinions.

Lenny：Karri 和他的团队正在以一种非常独特的方式建立他们的公司和产品，非常注重工艺和质量，没有 AB 测试，没有基于指标的目标，而是注重品味和意见。

Also, no durable cross-functional teams, instead teams assemble around a project and then disperse once it's done.

此外，没有持久的跨职能团队，而是团队围绕一个项目聚集，然后在完成后分散。

Also, they have just one product manager as the head of product and that's it.

此外，他们只有一名产品经理作为产品主管，仅此而已。

In our conversation, Karri shares how he built a culture around quality and craft, how he makes trade-offs, and how he operationalizes quality and thoughtfulness where design can be a differentiator in competing against incumbents.

在我们的谈话中，卡里分享了他如何围绕质量和工艺建立一种文化，如何进行权衡，以及如何运作质量和深思熟虑，其中设计可以成为与现有企业竞争的差异化因素。

Lenny: We talk about something called the linear method of building product, which is big on building opinionated software, working in consistent cycles amongst other principles.

Lenny：我们谈论一种称为构建产品的线性方法，该方法主要用于构建固执己见的软件，除其他原则外，还以一致的周期工作。

We also get into Linear's unique hiring approach, which involves a paid work trial where candidates work alongside the team for a number of days instead of just having an interview, also a glimpse into how Linear got their first 10 customers, found product market fit, and scaled their growth engine.

我们还介绍了 Linear 独特的招聘方法，其中包括带薪工作试用，应聘者将与团队一起工作几天，而不仅仅是进行面试，同时还可以了解 Linear 如何获得前 10 个客户、找到产品市场契合度并扩展其增长引擎。

Lenny: There is so much gold in this episode.

莱尼：这一集有很多黄金。

I'm very excited for you to hear it.

我很高兴你能听到这个消息。

With that, I bring you Karri Saarinen after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了卡里·沙里宁 (Karri Saarinen)。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury who I also happen to use for my business checking account.

本集由 Mercury 为您带来，我也恰好将其用于我的商业支票帐户。

I've tried a lot of business banks and there's nothing even close to the experience you get with Mercury.

我尝试过很多商业银行，但没有任何一家银行的体验能与 Mercury 的体验相媲美。

I moved cash over from another bank and it literally took less than half an hour to set up the account and wire money over at no cost.

我从另一家银行转入现金，实际上只花了不到半个小时就开设了账户并免费电汇资金。

Lenny: They make you want to use the site more often, which I've never felt with another banking site.

莱尼：它们让你想要更频繁地使用该网站，这是我在其他银行网站上从未有过的感觉。

Mercury is banking engineered for the startup journey, a modern solution to help your company become the best version of itself.

Mercury 是专为创业之旅而设计的银行业务，是一种现代解决方案，可帮助您的公司成为最好的公司。

Mercury isn't just a place to hold and send money.

水星不仅仅是一个存放和汇款的地方。

It's software built to help you scale with safety and stability whether you're a team of two or team of 1,000.

它的软件旨在帮助您安全稳定地扩展，无论您是两人团队还是 1,000 人团队。

Mercury also goes beyond banking to provide you with access to the foremost investors, operators, and tools.

Mercury 还超越了银行业务，为您提供接触最重要的投资者、运营商和工具的机会。

Lenny: Visit Mercury.com to join over 100,000 startups on Mercury, the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank.

Lenny：访问 Mercury.com，加入 Mercury 上超过 100,000 家初创公司的行列，这是雄心勃勃的公司进行银行业务的强大而直观的方式。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking service is provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank & Trust, members of FDIC.

银行服务由 FDIC 成员 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank & Trust 提供。

This episode is brought to you by Composer, the AI powered trading platform now with retirement accounts.

本集由 Composer 为您带来，Composer 是一个人工智能驱动的交易平台，现已提供退休账户。

Algorithmic trading has historically been reserved for the hedge fund elite.

算法交易历来都是对冲基金精英的专利。

Lenny: Now with Composer you can automate your trading with a library of over 1,000 strategies that are easy to understand and tweak using an AI assistant and visual editor.

Lenny：现在，借助 Composer，您可以使用包含 1,000 多种策略的库实现交易自动化，这些策略很容易使用 AI 助手和可视化编辑器来理解和调整。

Composer is the first ever algorithmic trading platform where you don't need any coding experience and includes a full range of trading indicators for you to get creative and a Discord community of 2,500 traders to discuss your ideas with.

Composer 是有史以来第一个算法交易平台，您不需要任何编码经验，它包含一整套供您发挥创意的交易指标，以及一个由 2,500 名交易者组成的 Discord 社区，供您讨论您的想法。

Composer also has a powerful back tester to see the historical performance of your strategies and you can then invest with a single click.

Composer 还有一个强大的回溯测试器，可以查看您策略的历史表现，然后您只需单击一下即可进行投资。

Lenny: Once you invest, Composer will automatically trade for you based on the logic of your strategy.

Lenny：一旦您投资，Composer 就会根据您的策略逻辑自动为您进行交易。

With $1 billion in trading volume and over 1 million trades executed, Composer already has many big-time investors using the platform regularly.

Composer 的交易量达到 10 亿美元，执行的交易量超过 100 万笔，已经有许多大型投资者定期使用该平台。

Head to Composer.Trade and use the code Lenny for an extra week of free trial on your Composer membership.

前往 Composer.Trade 并使用代码 Lenny 即可获得 Composer 会员资格额外一周的免费试用期。

That's Composer.Trade.

这就是作曲家贸易。

Karri, thank you so much for being here.

卡里，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Karri Saarinen: Thanks, Lenny.

卡里·沙里宁：谢谢，莱尼。

It's great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: Maybe to start, set a little context, can you just explain what is Linear?

Lenny：也许首先，设置一些背景，你能解释一下什么是线性吗？

What does Linear do?

线性是做什么的？

Then, share maybe a few stats of just the scale of Linear at this point.

然后，分享此时线性规模的一些统计数据。

Karri Saarinen: Linear is the project and issue tracking system that software companies and technical teams love to use.

Karri Saarinen：Linear 是软件公司和技术团队喜欢使用的项目和问题跟踪系统。

We help software companies to build software.

我们帮助软件公司构建软件。

We started 2019.

我们开始了2019年。

Today some of the top growth companies like Block, Vercel, Ramp, Retool, Mercury, and Softstack are building with Linear.

如今，Block、Vercel、Ramp、Retool、Mercury 和 Softstack 等一些顶级成长型公司都在使用 Linear 进行构建。

We also additionally have lots of other companies, thousands of other companies using Linear.

我们还有许多其他公司，数千家其他公司也在使用 Linear。

These companies can be a very early stage team like some companies just graduated from YC or a public company.

这些公司可以是非常早期的团队，比如一些刚从 YC 毕业的公司或上市公司。

Karri Saarinen: Just briefly, why we created Linear is that, like you said, I worked with you at Airbnb and before that I worked at Coinbase.

Karri Saarinen：简单来说，我们创建 Linear 的原因是，正如您所说，我在 Airbnb 与您一起工作，在此之前我在 Coinbase 工作。

Before that, I had my own startup.

在此之前，我有自己的创业公司。

All of us founders, there's three of us, we had a similar path where we worked in multiple different companies in different stages.

我们所有的创始人，我们三个人，我们都有相似的道路，我们在不同阶段的多家不同公司工作过。

What we saw often is that the tools available for managing software projects weren't really cutting it.

我们经常看到的是，可用于管理软件项目的工具并不能真正解决问题。

I think a lot of them felt very clunky or complex or just like they had this legacy way of thinking about software development.

我认为他们中的很多人都感觉非常笨重或复杂，或者就像他们有这种传统的软件开发思维方式一样。

We just felt like we should do something about it.

我们只是觉得我们应该为此做点什么。

With Linear, we set out to build this most frictionless and streamlined system for modern software development.

通过 Linear，我们着手为现代软件开发构建这个最顺畅、最精简的系统。

I'm also happy to share that we've been profitable the last two years.

我也很高兴与大家分享，过去两年我们已经实现盈利。

We also have this thing where we actually have this net negative lifetime burn rate, which means that we just have more cash in the bank today than we have raised.

我们还有这样的事情，我们实际上有这种净负终身烧钱率，这意味着我们今天银行里的现金比我们筹集的还要多。

I think with a lot of startups usually the normal way is that you raise money and then you need to spend it to build it.

我认为对于很多初创公司来说，通常的正常方式是筹集资金，然后需要花费它来建立它。

I think since we were able to build a business pretty early on, we've been able to be in this position that actually we haven't spent any money on building the business.

我认为，由于我们很早就能够建立业务，所以我们实际上没有花任何钱来建立业务。

Lenny: That is insane.

莱尼：这太疯狂了。

I didn't even know that.

我什至不知道这一点。

For all those reasons, a lot of founders and a lot of product leaders look up to the way Linear builds product and the way you think about product.

出于所有这些原因，许多创始人和许多产品领导者都仰慕 Linear 构建产品的方式以及您思考产品的方式。

To frame this conversation, there's three areas I want to dive into.

为了构建这次对话，我想深入探讨三个领域。

One is just how you approach building product.

一是你如何构建产品。

Two is how you go about building the team and the business in general and then three is just how you grow Linear.

二是如何构建团队和总体业务，三是如何发展 Linear。

To start, I want to talk about craft.

首先，我想谈谈工艺。

Lenny: Clearly, one of the biggest reasons that people look up to Linear and use Linear is the quality of the user experience and the product.

Lenny：显然，人们尊敬 Linear 并使用 Linear 的最大原因之一是用户体验和产品的质量。

I know your team puts a lot of emphasis on craft and user experience.

我知道您的团队非常重视工艺和用户体验。

I imagine that also comes at the cost of some trade-offs like it takes probably longer to get stuff out the door.

我想这也是以一些权衡为代价的，比如可能需要更长的时间才能把东西拿出来。

You're probably losing sales because people are waiting for a feature and you're not ready to launch it yet.

您可能会失去销售，因为人们正在等待某个功能，而您还没有准备好推出它。

You want to make it better.

你想让它变得更好。

What have you learned about creating space for craft and building product that is really, really great?

关于为工艺创造空间和打造真正非常棒的产品，您学到了什么？

Karri Saarinen: I think it's interesting that those things you mentioned like hiring, building business, and building product and craft, I think that all of those are somewhat related to each other.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我认为有趣的是，你提到的那些事情，比如招聘、建立业务、构建产品和工艺，我认为所有这些都在某种程度上彼此相关。

What I can say about the product craft per se is it definitely starts with the people.

关于产品工艺本身，我可以说的是它绝对始于人。

On the hiring front, we always look for people that care about it.

在招聘方面，我们总是寻找关心它的人。

As a business, why we really care about it is that we see that cooperation only happens if people use the product and our product, which is supposed to help the cooperation, coordination.

作为一个企业，我们真正关心它的原因是，我们看到只有当人们使用我们的产品和我们的产品时才会发生合作，这应该有助于合作、协调。

Karri Saarinen: If there's friction or the experience isn't that great or there's little paper cuts, I think it gets really annoying for people to use.

Karri Saarinen：如果存在摩擦，或者体验不是很好，或者几乎没有剪纸，我认为人们使用起来会很烦人。

We think for the business to be successful the quality and the craft is very important.

我们认为，要使业务取得成功，质量和工艺非常重要。

There's definitely trade-offs sometimes.

有时肯定需要权衡。

There can be for example timelines like we are about to launch something and then for example I or someone else goes to look at it and sees, "Oh, this doesn't feel right and we should fix it so I don't think we should launch this now."

可能会有一些时间表，比如我们即将推出某些东西，然后我或其他人去看它，然后发现，“哦，这感觉不对，我们应该修复它，所以我认为我们现在不应该推出它。”

Karri Saarinen: Sometimes it does definitely push the timelines, but this might be days.

卡里·萨里宁：有时确实会推迟时间表，但这可能需要几天的时间。

It's not like we need to redo everything.

我们并不需要重做所有事情。

The other way we think about it is we are actually very okay pushing things out to ourselves and for a small group of customers if they opt into that.

我们思考的另一种方式是，我们实际上完全可以将事情推给我们自己，也可以为一小群客户（如果他们选择这样做）。

Whenever we build a new feature one of the things is we don't want to spend tons of time upfront just designing it, then polishing it perfectly.

每当我们构建一个新功能时，其中一件事就是我们不想预先花费大量时间来设计它，然后完美地完善它。

Karri Saarinen: We actually believe that when you start building the thing you actually start realizing more how it should work and how it should be better.

Karri Saarinen：我们实际上相信，当你开始构建这个东西时，你实际上开始更多地意识到它应该如何工作以及它应该如何变得更好。

A lot of times with the teams we tell them, "Just put it there in, I don't know, the first week almost.

很多时候，我们会告诉团队，“把它放在那里，我不知道，几乎是第一周。

After you have some designs in place or some design ideas, just put it into the app and ship it to production." It's only visible to us so we internally can test it out.

当你有了一些设计或一些设计想法后，只需将其放入应用程序中并将其交付生产即可。”它仅对我们可见，因此我们可以在内部对其进行测试。

Karri Saarinen: Then, I think the next stage is we look for a customer that could be interested in this feature or we just ask people to opt in to some better program.

Karri Saarinen：然后，我认为下一阶段我们会寻找可能对此功能感兴趣的客户，或者我们只是要求人们选择一些更好的计划。

In those stages, the experience can be a little janky or it's not that polished, but we're okay with it because we are saying, "It's not finished.

在这些阶段，体验可能会有点卡顿或者不够精致，但我们对此没有意见，因为我们说：“它还没有完成。

We just want to get your feedback early so we can make it better." Once we get to the full general release, then we pay more attention to the actual polish or the craft.

我们只是想尽早得到您的反馈，以便我们做得更好。”一旦我们获得完整的全面发布，我们就会更加关注实际的打磨或工艺。

Lenny: That is so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

I didn't know you do that.

我不知道你会这么做。

You actually go ahead and launch things really early to a select group of people that want the early stuff.

实际上，你会很早就向一群想要早期产品的特定人群推出产品。

Then, did you say that you find one customer to co-create and help evolve the feature and change it?

那么，您是否说您找到了一位客户来共同创建并帮助发展该功能并对其进行更改？

Karri Saarinen: Usually it can be one or it's three or five or 10.

卡里·沙里宁：通常可以是 1 个，也可以是 3 个、5 个或 10 个。

Often, especially with the larger company facing features, we usually do try to find a large company because sometimes it's hard to imagine these things, how they should work.

通常，尤其是面对大公司的功能时，我们通常会尝试找到一家大公司，因为有时很难想象这些东西，它们应该如何运作。

It's better if someone is willing to work with us to explain, "Okay, this is how we do something." For example, we work this way with Vercel in that there was some changes they wanted to see in the roadmap feature.

如果有人愿意和我们一起解释，“好吧，这就是我们做事的方式”，那就更好了。例如，我们以这种方式与 Vercel 合作，因为他们希望在路线图功能中看到一些变化。

We worked with them to improve it and then they could give us feedback along the way.

我们与他们合作改进它，然后他们可以一路向我们提供反馈。

Lenny: That is so interesting because I think people seeing Linear from the outside, it feels like you just take the time you need to build something awesome.

Lenny：这太有趣了，因为我认为人们从外部看待 Linear，感觉就像你只是花时间去构建一些很棒的东西。

Then, it launches and it's amazing and it's great, but it turns out that isn't exactly how you build.

然后，它启动了，它令人惊叹，非常棒，但事实证明这并不完全是你的构建方式。

You actually do launch things really early and people don't necessarily see it until it's done, but there's this whole process behind the scenes.

实际上，你确实很早就推出了一些东西，人们不一定会在它完成之前看到它，但幕后有整个过程。

Karri Saarinen: I think sometimes people think that craft is about perfecting things and perfecting them in a very organized way or very early on.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我认为有时人们认为工艺就是完善事物，并以一种非常有组织的方式或很早就完善它们。

The downside with this perfection mindset is that it can be sometimes hard to put anything out because nothing is ever fully perfect.

这种完美心态的缺点是，有时很难推出任何东西，因为没有什么是完全完美的。

We try to balance this thinking with the fact that we should be always pushing things out very quickly, but then also fixing them, improving them very quickly.

我们试图在这种想法与事实之间取得平衡，即我们应该始终非常快速地将事情推出，但同时也要快速修复、改进它们。

Karri Saarinen: It's almost like the opposite idea, but then we try to combine that and I think it's been working well.

卡里·萨里宁：这几乎就像相反的想法，但后来我们尝试将其结合起来，我认为它运作良好。

Generally, in the company there's not necessarily a lot of reviews or something that we always review everything that gets shipped this way because we do want people to feel that they can put something in the app and then we can try it out.

一般来说，在公司里不一定有很多评论，或者我们总是审查以这种方式发货的所有东西，因为我们确实希望人们觉得他们可以在应用程序中添加一些东西，然后我们可以尝试一下。

It's more like let's just try it out, but then we do need to look at it again before we release it to everyone.

这更像是让我们尝试一下，但在向所有人发布之前我们确实需要再次查看它。

Lenny: A lot of founders, a lot of product leaders, a lot of designers definitely want to create space for craft and making products really great, something they're really proud of, but in practice it's really hard.

Lenny：很多创始人、很多产品领导者、很多设计师肯定希望为工艺创造空间，让产品变得非常出色，这是他们真正引以为豪的，但实际上很难。

Very few teams and companies do this.

很少有团队和公司这样做。

Is there anything else you've learned about creating space for this sort of thing and prioritizing it for founders that are listening that are trying to instill more and more of this or do you have to be a designer CO like Karri and really it's hard to do otherwise?

关于为这类事情创造空间并优先考虑那些正在倾听的创始人，他们试图灌输越来越多的这种东西，你还学到了什么吗？或者你必须成为像卡里这样的设计师 CO，否则真的很难做到吗？

Karri Saarinen: I don't think actually.

卡里·沙里宁：我实际上不这么认为。

It's not purely coming from me.

这不完全来自我。

I think all of us founders like Jori and Tuomas additionally, their background is engineering, but I would say I think they spend even more time on the details than sometimes I do.

我认为我们所有像 Jori 和 Tuomas 这样的创始人，他们的背景都是工程学，但我想说的是，我认为他们在细节上花费的时间比我有时还要多。

I think very early on when it was the three of us I would be the one doing the broad strokes designs like this is how the UI works and this is how some of the things work.

我想很早的时候，当我们三个人一起工作时，我会是负责大体设计的人，就像 UI 的工作原理以及某些事情的工作原理一样。

They were the ones that were like, "Oh, there should be animation here and there should be this kind of thing here."

他们的想法是，“哦，这里应该有动画，这里应该有这种东西。”

Karri Saarinen: I think it's like that DNA I think comes from all of us.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为这就像我们所有人的 DNA。

I think with the craft it always starts with people need to care about it.

我认为对于工艺来说，它总是始于人们需要关心它。

If it's not valued in the company, then it's very hard for anyone to do because people don't feel like it's valued.

如果它在公司中不被重视，那么任何人都很难做到，因为人们觉得它不被重视。

I gave this advice to some founder.

我向一些创始人提出了这个建议。

He was asking me about it and in their case their founders were coming from different companies.

他向我询问此事，就他们而言，他们的创始人来自不同的公司。

Maybe this one founder came from Airbnb and then the other ones came from Facebook and Amazon.

也许这位创始人来自 Airbnb，然后其他创始人来自 Facebook 和亚马逊。

For example, I think Facebook and Amazon have a very different culture on quality or craft or shipping.

例如，我认为 Facebook 和亚马逊在质量、工艺或运输方面有着非常不同的文化。

I think it's what I said to them.

我想这就是我对他们说的。

You need to align on it.

你需要对齐它。

It's like you cannot run a company with multiple different kinds of cultures.

这就像你无法经营一家拥有多种不同文化的公司一样。

I think I made some points like why the quality is important for certain products and you should all believe in that and then instill that with everyone you hire.

我认为我提出了一些观点，例如为什么质量对于某些产品很重要，你们都应该相信这一点，然后向您雇用的每个人灌输这一点。

The other thing I would say that we like to do is we actually don't have much PMs in the company.

我想说的另一件事是我们喜欢做的事情是我们公司实际上没有太多产品经理。

Karri Saarinen: We only have one and we can talk about more about it.

卡里·沙里宁：我们只有一个，我们可以谈论更多。

One of the things I think that happens is when you build a team and you start creating these very specific roles for everything I think that often the PM can be the ones figuring things out and making decisions and guiding the team, but they're not the ones building the feature.

我认为发生的事情之一是，当你建立一个团队并开始为所有事情创建这些非常具体的角色时，我认为通常 PM 可以是解决问题、做出决策和指导团队的人，但他们不是构建功能的人。

They're not there looking at it the whole day like where does this button go or how does it work?

他们不会整天盯着它看这个按钮在哪里或者它是如何工作的？

I think a lot of that, this craft for us happens when we give the project team this ownership and the project team is just engineering and design.

我认为很多时候，当我们给予项目团队这种所有权并且项目团队只是工程和设计时，我们的这种工艺就会发生。

Karri Saarinen: Then, when they start building that feature they start seeing these opportunities that this thing could be better.

Karri Saarinen：然后，当他们开始构建该功能时，他们开始看到这个东西可以变得更好的机会。

A good example of this is one of our engineers, Andreas.

我们的工程师之一安德烈亚斯就是一个很好的例子。

When we were building this right click menu in the app so you can click different things and under that you have sub-menus.

当我们在应用程序中构建此右键菜单时，您可以单击不同的内容，并且在该菜单下有子菜单。

Mac OS does this well where it's when you open that menu you hover on the menu and then you want to go to the sub-menu.

Mac 操作系统在这方面做得很好，当您打开该菜单时，您将鼠标悬停在菜单上，然后您想要转到子菜单。

You hover to the right.

您将鼠标悬停在右侧。

You don't have to go exactly horizontally to get into that menu.

您不必完全水平地进入该菜单。

Karri Saarinen: You can actually go diagonally or you don't actually have to hit the menu exactly.

Karri Saarinen：实际上你可以沿着对角线走，或者你实际上不必准确地点击菜单。

There's this safe zone, but a lot of software just implements like, "Hey, let's do this menu.

有这个安全区，但很多软件只是实现这样的功能，“嘿，让我们做这个菜单。

Let's make the sub-menu." It only works if you exactly hover over the menu.

让我们制作子菜单吧。”仅当您将鼠标精确悬停在菜单上时它才有效。

Then, what happens is the user often misses with few pixels what they were trying to do.

然后，发生的情况是用户经常会因为几个像素而错过他们想要做的事情。

What Andreas did, which we didn't tell him to do, is like, "Yeah, this kind of sucks and we should make this better."

安德烈亚斯所做的（我们没有告诉他这样做）就像是，“是的，这很糟糕，我们应该做得更好。”

Karri Saarinen: He figured out a way to create those safe areas that are dynamic based on the sub-menu positioning and everything.

Karri Saarinen：他找到了一种方法来创建基于子菜单定位和所有内容的动态安全区域。

It's much easier now.

现在容易多了。

You can go diagonally to the actual thing you want to go to.

您可以沿对角线前往您真正想去的地方。

I think these things happen when you give people more of the ownership of the project and also the space to do that and then you also have leadership or generally the company culture that values the quality or the craft.

我认为，当你给人们更多的项目所有权和空间，然后你还拥有领导力或通常重视质量或工艺的公司文化时，这些事情就会发生。

Lenny: I got to follow this thread.

莱尼：我必须关注这个话题。

There's a couple of questions I want to ask.

我想问几个问题。

You have one product manager.

你有一名产品经理。

Would you call him the head of product?

你会称他为产品主管吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, Nan Yu, he is the head of product.

Karri Saarinen：是的，Nan Yu，他是产品负责人。

Lenny: Awesome, what made you decide to hire him and even have any PMs?

Lenny：太棒了，是什么让你决定雇用他甚至有任何 PM？

Karri Saarinen: We started to see that we have enough features and areas of the product and also the team speaker that it's hard to keep aligned on all of these things or even keep track of things.

Karri Saarinen：我们开始发现我们的产品有足够的功能和领域，而且团队发言人也发现很难在所有这些事情上保持一致，甚至很难跟踪事情。

Initially, we actually hired Nan as a contractor to help us with this insights data tool.

最初，我们实际上聘请了 Nan 作为承包商来帮助我们使用这个洞察数据工具。

We have this data tool feature built in Linear so you can get data on what's happening in the workspace.

我们在 Linear 中内置了此数据工具功能，因此您可以获得有关工作区中发生的情况的数据。

For us founders, we realized none of us, we are not super experienced in data tools.

对于我们创始人来说，我们没有意识到我们在数据工具方面没有超级经验。

We need someone to help out.

我们需要有人帮忙。

Karri Saarinen: Luckily, Nan, we knew him and he actually worked at Mode, which is a data tool.

Karri Saarinen：幸运的是，Nan，我们认识他，他实际上在 Mode 工作，这是一个数据工具。

We initially hired him like, "Can you help us figure out what exactly should this data tool and how should it work?" I think there's different ways of doing that.

我们最初雇用他的方式是，“你能帮我们弄清楚这个数据工具到底应该做什么以及它应该如何工作吗？”我认为有不同的方法可以做到这一点。

I think always the easiest way is let's just copy what some other company is doing, but we didn't want to do that.

我认为最简单的方法总是让我们复制其他公司正在做的事情，但我们不想这样做。

We wanted to figure out what is actually a useful way to use this data or get this data?

我们想弄清楚使用这些数据或获取这些数据的真正有用方法是什么？

Karri Saarinen: He helped us with that and then we saw this could be useful in other larger areas or overall with the whole product it's like we might have these kind of questions.

Karri Saarinen：他在这方面帮助了我们，然后我们发现这在其他更大的领域或整个产品中可能很有用，就像我们可能会遇到这类问题一样。

What should we exactly be thinking around here and why and how would we define this direction and then help the teams to also align on it?

我们到底应该在这里思考什么？为什么以及如何定义这个方向，然后帮助团队也在此方向上保持一致？

To us, it's more like he figures out the direction of the product and steers some of the efforts and not like he's there in every meeting and making every decision or writing every spec or something like that.

对我们来说，这更像是他找出产品的方向并指导一些工作，而不是他参加每次会议并做出每个决定或编写每个规格或类似的东西。

Lenny: Another question along this line, because there's a lot of PMs listening that are going to be like, "Oh, shit, these guys don't need PMs or PM is over, product management dead." Just another question along these lines, somebody needs to do the work that a PM does basically, right?

Lenny：另一个问题是这样的，因为有很多 PM 会说，“哦，糟糕，这些人不需要 PM，否则 PM 就结束了，产品管理已经死了。”另一个问题是，有人需要完成 PM 基本上要做的工作，对吗？

There's all these things that is on the plate of a product manager when they're at a company and if they're not there, other people have to do those things.

当产品经理在公司时，所有这些事情都是他们要做的，如果他们不在公司，其他人就必须做这些事情。

What I'm hearing is basically you give those responsibilities to the engineers, designer, and maybe other functions within the team.

我听到的基本上是，你将这些职责交给了工程师、设计师，或许还有团队中的其他职能部门。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I mean definitely I think what it means is, and there's definitely a trade-off.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，我的意思是，我认为这绝对意味着，而且肯定需要权衡。

I think sometimes when companies specialize roles a lot it's because it's more efficient.

我认为有时公司将角色专业化很多是因为这样效率更高。

If the engineer spends 100% of their time coding something, then it's like they're using their skillset to the max.

如果工程师将 100% 的时间花在编码上，那么就好像他们最大限度地利用了自己的技能。

Then, we just think that in order to build quality things or build things in a certain way it's actually better if people actually also spend some time thinking about things and not just executing.

然后，我们只是认为，为了构建高质量的东西或以某种方式构建东西，如果人们实际上也花一些时间思考事情而不仅仅是执行，那么实际上会更好。

Karri Saarinen: Yes, for every project there's a project lead.

Karri Saarinen：是的，每个项目都有一个项目负责人。

That lead can be engineer or designer.

该领导可以是工程师或设计师。

It's not a formal role or it's not based on your whatever level or it's just like you need to be certain title that you can be that.

这不是一个正式的角色，或者它不基于你的任何级别，或者就像你需要确定你可以成为的头衔一样。

It's more like an assignment that now you are responsible getting the project started and working together with the team, figuring it out, and then communicating changes or communicating how that progress happens.

这更像是一项任务，现在您负责启动项目并与团队一起工作，找出解决方案，然后沟通更改或沟通进展如何发生。

Karri Saarinen: Definitely it means that the engineers or designers also have to do these things and they do need to communicate and they do need to think about the scope or things.

Karri Saarinen：这当然意味着工程师或设计师也必须做这些事情，他们确实需要沟通，他们确实需要考虑范围或事情。

It's a different way of doing things.

这是一种不同的做事方式。

Also, not everyone wants to do that, which is fine, but we on the hiring front try to hire people that are interested in the broader scope than just the specific skillset that they have.

此外，并不是每个人都想这样做，这很好，但我们在招聘方面尝试雇用对更广泛的范围感兴趣的人，而不仅仅是他们所拥有的特定技能。

Lenny: I think those last two points are really essential.

莱尼：我认为最后两点非常重要。

One, people often don't want to do this work and they are happy to offload it to a potential product manager.

第一，人们通常不想做这项工作，他们很乐意将其交给潜在的产品经理。

The fact that say engineers have to do all these boring PM things like communicate timelines and keep PR specs aligned and make sure timelines are hit and all that stuff and run meetings, a lot of people don't want to do that.

事实上，工程师必须做所有这些无聊的 PM 事情，比如沟通时间表、保持 PR 规范一致、确保按时完成所有这些事情并召开会议，很多人不想这样做。

Lenny: A lot of times they do and I think in this case people seem to really want to be doing that.

莱尼：很多时候他们这样做，我认为在这种情况下，人们似乎真的很想这样做。

The other is I think you need a really high caliber team that's very product-minded and the hiring bar needs to be very, very high for say engineers and designers to want to do all these things and be good at them.

另一个是我认为你需要一个非常高素质的团队，非常注重产品，并且招聘门槛需要非常非常高，比如工程师和设计师想要做所有这些事情并擅长它们。

I think those are two necessary ingredients for this to work out.

我认为这是实现这一目标的两个必要因素。

Lenny: For teams that want to try this approach, especially startups that are starting out and maybe not excited about hiring product managers, is there anything else that you think is essential or important to functioning well without any product managers?

Lenny：对于想要尝试这种方法的团队，尤其是刚刚起步并且可能对聘请产品经理不感兴趣的初创公司，您认为还有什么对于在没有产品经理的情况下良好运作是必要或重要的吗？

You're at around 50 people at this point?

你们现在大概有 50 人吧？

Karri Saarinen: We're around 50.

Karri Saarinen：我们大约 50 岁。

Probably the only thing I would say is it's the hiring front that you really need to spend more time on it.

也许我唯一要说的是，你确实需要在招聘方面花更多时间。

Basically, you cannot really interview engineers only for the engineering skills.

基本上，你不能仅仅为了工程技能而面试工程师。

You also have to interview them for the product skills.

您还必须面试他们的产品技能。

Obviously, you cannot I think expect that people have some.

显然，我认为你不能期望人们拥有一些。

If you do some PM interview for them, they're not going to have the same skillset or the same understanding of the concepts or something.

如果你为他们进行一些产品经理面试，他们将不会拥有相同的技能或对概念或其他东西的相同理解。

Karri Saarinen: The way we have done it in the past is basically I might interview them about the product.

Karri Saarinen：我们过去的做法基本上是我可能会采访他们有关产品的问题。

I'm not a technical person per se.

我本身不是技术人员。

I will just ask them questions about how did they do something or how do they think about something?

我只会问他们关于他们是如何做某事或者他们如何看待某事的问题？

It's similar to other roles too.

与其他角色也类似。

We just look for does this person have opinions about products and how they work?

我们只是寻找这个人对产品及其工作原理是否有意见？

Can they form opinions and can they use their own judgment at times?

他们能否形成自己的意见，有时能否运用自己的判断？

Then, can they communicate or articulate those things as well?

那么，他们也能沟通或阐明这些事情吗？

Lenny: Awesome, I was just thinking it's interesting that a tool that, I don't think it's designed specifically for product managers, but essentially for building products like the infrastructure for building product in a team is built by a company that has one PM and very few PMs.

Lenny：太棒了，我只是觉得很有趣的是，一个工具，我不认为它是专门为产品经理设计的，而是本质上用于构建产品，比如在团队中构建产品的基础设施，是由一家拥有一名 PM 和很少 PM 的公司构建的。

Karri Saarinen: I mean I think in some ways I would say that with Linear we're trying to help the whole company and I think engineers is probably the largest user group of the product.

Karri Saarinen：我的意思是，我认为在某些方面我会说，通过 Linear，我们正在努力帮助整个公司，我认为工程师可能是该产品最大的用户群体。

I think in some ways we want to make the PM's job easier in that they have to spend less time managing everything or the day-to-day because the engineers are actually using the product and they're updating the things.

我认为在某些方面我们希望让产品经理的工作变得更轻松，因为他们必须花更少的时间来管理一切或日常事务，因为工程师实际上正在使用该产品并且他们正在更新这些东西。

For the PMs, it would be much more easier to get what is the state of things and maybe trust that much more because people actually use the product.

对于产品经理来说，了解事情的现状会更容易，并且可能会更信任这一点，因为人们实际上在使用该产品。

Karri Saarinen: In some ways, I think we are trying to make it easier for everyone, easier for the engineers.

Karri Saarinen：在某些方面，我认为我们正在努力让每个人、工程师都更容易。

They can focus more on their work.

他们可以更加专注于自己的工作。

Then, for PMs I think we're trying to make it so that they can also focus more on other things than just, I don't know, managing the tool that they use.

然后，对于产品经理，我认为我们正在努力做到这一点，以便他们也可以更多地关注其他事情，而不仅仅是管理他们使用的工具，我不知道。

I think that's not the most important job of a PM.

我认为这不是总理最重要的工作。

I think they should be thinking more of the, I don't know, bigger picture or the other problems or figuring out the next features or something.

我认为他们应该更多地考虑，我不知道，更大的前景或其他问题，或者找出下一个功能或其他东西。

Lenny: Just one more question along these lines, there's other companies like Stripe I think waited until 200 employees to hire I think their first product manager.

Lenny：还有一个问题，我认为还有像 Stripe 这样的其他公司等到 200 名员工才聘请他们的第一位产品经理。

Snapchat I think is famous for something around that.

我认为 Snapchat 因与此相关的一些事情而闻名。

Do you have any sense of if you think this might change, when you think you might hire more product managers?

当你认为你可能会雇佣更多的产品经理时，你是否认为这种情况可能会改变？

Is there a plan here or is it just see how it goes as you grow?

这里有一个计划还是只是看看随着你的成长它会如何进行？

Karri Saarinen: I think we'll definitely hire more.

卡里·萨里宁：我想我们肯定会雇用更多人。

It's I think like what I said before.

我的想法就像我之前说的那样。

I think we like to see the PM's smarts operating on a higher level.

我认为我们希望看到首相的智慧在更高的水平上发挥作用。

The whole company, I think the way we are trying to build it is we have less people, but people who are more high caliber and can think about larger scope than what their current role is.

整个公司，我认为我们试图建立的方式是我们的人员较少，但人员素质更高，可以考虑比他们目前的角色更大的范围。

Karri Saarinen: I think we're just trying to build smaller units, but more effective units, which is I think where the PMs go.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为我们只是试图建立更小但更有效的单位，我认为这就是总理的职责所在。

There would be also less of them and they're not there at every level.

他们的数量也会减少，而且并不是每个级别都存在。

I think in the future as the company grows and the team grows and the product grows, we might have several PMs that are focusing on or looking at specific areas or specific types of things of the product or specific customers or something like that.

我认为未来随着公司的发展、团队的发展和产品的发展，我们可能会有几位产品经理专注于或关注产品的特定领域或特定类型的事物或特定客户或类似的事情。

Lenny: Awesome, that was a tangent because I could not go in that direction, but I want to come back to design again and craft.

莱尼：太棒了，这是一个切线，因为我无法朝那个方向前进，但我想再次回来设计和制作。

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

not go in that direction, but I want to come back to design again and craft.

不会朝那个方向走，但我想再次回来设计和制作。

So it feels like Linear, one of the reasons you guys have been successful is design and experience is basically a huge differentiator from other products and there's always this question of can design be enough of a differentiator in specific markets?

所以感觉就像 Linear，你们成功的原因之一是设计和体验基本上是与其他产品的巨大差异化因素，并且总是存在这样的问题：设计是否足以在特定市场中发挥差异化因素？

Is there always an opportunity to build a significantly better product experience and have a real shot at disrupting an incumbent?

是否总有机会打造显着更好的产品体验，并真正有机会颠覆现有产品？

Do you have any sense of when design can be enough of a differentiator?

您是否知道什么时候设计足以成为差异化因素？

And this is coming from a founder trend aside, should we go big on design and experience or should we invest in distribution or new technology or something along those lines?

撇开创始人的趋势不谈，我们应该大力发展设计和体验，还是应该投资于分销或新技术或类似的东西？

Any thoughts there?

有什么想法吗？

Karri Saarinen: My belief is that any domain or industry, the more it matters, the more the design matters.

Karri Saarinen：我的信念是，任何领域或行业，越重要，设计就越重要。

I think it's fairly easy to see in different, even in software or in other industries.

我认为这在不同的行业中很容易看到，甚至在软件或其他行业也是如此。

It's like what happens is whenever there's a new paradigm, I don't know, it's the mobile or the web or something, the first iterations of those products existing there, they don't have to be super well-designed necessarily because they're the first.

就像每当出现一个新的范式时发生的事情，我不知道，它是移动或网络或其他东西，这些产品的第一次迭代在那里，它们不一定要经过精心设计，因为它们是第一个。

But then as you build the hundreds, thousand different email clients, any email client now has to be pretty good to be even considered an email client.

但是，当您构建数百、数千个不同的电子邮件客户端时，现在任何电子邮件客户端都必须非常好才能被视为电子邮件客户端。

The bar is so high.

门槛这么高。

Karri Saarinen: I think today the startups, I don't know if you look at the webpage Google launched with or the webpage YouTube launched with or some of these older companies, they were very basic.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我认为今天的初创公司，我不知道你是否看过谷歌推出的网页或 YouTube 推出的网页或其中一些老公司，它们非常基础。

If you launch that website today, no one would really pay attention.

如果您今天推出该网站，没有人会真正关注。

So I think the design is, it's almost like a very basic thing now, that from pretty much from the very beginning you need pretty high level design for people to even pay attention or consider you seriously.

所以我认为设计现在几乎是一个非常基本的事情，从一开始你就需要相当高水平的设计，以便人们甚至注意到或认真考虑你。

Karri Saarinen: And I think it's not necessarily fair because sometimes it's like maybe the product is really good but they didn't have a designer or they didn't have time to do it and then people just dismiss it because it doesn't seem like something that they interest them.

卡里·萨里宁：我认为这不一定公平，因为有时产品可能真的很好，但他们没有设计师，或者他们没有时间去做，然后人们就会忽略它，因为它看起来不像他们感兴趣的东西。

So I think that's the first thing is I think it is, and it's going to be more and more important.

所以我认为这是第一件事，我认为它是，而且它将变得越来越重要。

But I would also say design is never going to be the reason why a company is successful.

但我也想说，设计永远不会成为公司成功的原因。

It's like the company still has to have some other things.

好像公司还得有一些其他的东西。

The product still needs to be something, it needs to be better in some ways or it needs to be different in some ways.

产品仍然需要有所作为，需要在某些方面更好，或者需要在某些方面有所不同。

Karri Saarinen: And then a design is just enabling some of these things, enable and similar to technology, it's like if you have good technology, it's easier to do certain things and the product works better in some ways than you having a bad technology or bad infrastructure.

Karri Saarinen：然后，设计只是实现其中的一些东西，实现并类似于技术，就像如果你拥有好的技术，就更容易做某些事情，并且产品在某些方面比你拥有糟糕的技术或基础设施更好。

Karri Saarinen: So similar to design, I think if you have a good design or even a good brand, people are drawn into it and then it makes some user acquisition or user retention or just even people perception of the product better.

Karri Saarinen：与设计非常相似，我认为如果你有一个好的设计，甚至一个好的品牌，人们就会被吸引进去，然后它会让一些用户获取或用户保留，甚至人们对产品的看法更好。

I think an example is packaging and products, is like Apple or a lot of companies spend a lot of time effort into the packaging because it's kind of already sets the expectations for the user who is receiving the product.

我认为一个例子是包装和产品，就像苹果或很多公司在包装上花费了大量的时间和精力，因为它已经为接收产品的用户设定了期望。

It's like even before you use the product, you start thinking that this is a high quality product and I'm going to love it.

就像在您使用该产品之前，您就开始认为这是一款高品质的产品，我会喜欢它。

And then when you actually have it, then you actually might feel that way, unless the product is really bad and then you wouldn't feel that way.

然后当你真正拥有它的时候，你可能真的会有这样的感觉，除非这个产品真的很糟糕，那么你就不会这样的感觉。

Karri Saarinen: So I think similarly, with startups or SaaS, it's like your landing page or some of the other things.

Karri Saarinen：所以我认为类似地，对于初创公司或 SaaS，它就像你的登陆页面或其他一些东西。

It's like they are already communicating something to the user and they're setting the expectations and then I think that that can be very useful thing, especially early on when no one really knows you or knows the product or cares about you.

就好像他们已经在向用户传达一些信息，并且他们正在设定期望，然后我认为这可能是非常有用的事情，特别是在早期，当没有人真正了解你或了解产品或关心你时。

So I think especially, I feel like design can be very good leverage in the beginning.

所以我特别认为，我觉得设计在一开始就可以发挥很好的作用。

Lenny: I think that's such an interesting insight, especially that first thing you said around how the more often and the more crowded the spaces, the more opportunity there is for design to be a differentiator.

莱尼：我认为这是一个非常有趣的见解，尤其是你所说的第一句话，空间越频繁、越拥挤，设计就越有机会成为差异化因素。

Is that roughly how you think about it?

您大概是这样想的吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

So I mean just think about, I don't know, any product category, basically people have then a lot of choices and then they how do they make choices?

所以我的意思是，想一想，我不知道，任何产品类别，基本上人们都有很多选择，然后他们如何做出选择？

Maybe there's a specific thing they want, but a lot of people don't necessarily know what is the specific feature I want from this software.

也许他们想要某个特定的东西，但很多人不一定知道我想要这个软件的特定功能是什么。

So it's more like, well what is the best one?

所以它更像是，什么是最好的？

What is the highest quality one?

最高品质的是什么？

And if you put things side by side and people see things, people are visual.

如果你把东西放在一起，人们就能看到东西，那么人们就是视觉的。

So then the design can be one of those things, it stands out, it's like, "Well, that looks the best or that looks the most quality product to me, so I'm going to use that one." When people have a lot of choices, they probably will pick the one that looks most interesting.

因此，设计可以是其中之一，它很突出，就像，“嗯，对我来说，这看起来是最好的或者看起来是最优质的产品，所以我将使用那个。”当人们有很多选择时，他们可能会选择看起来最有趣的一个。

Karri Saarinen: Then I think there is, the second part is the brand, which is something that if you can build a brand, then I think it's even the product almost doesn't matter, it becomes this kind of default.

Karri Saarinen：然后我认为第二部分是品牌，如果你能建立一个品牌，那么我认为它甚至产品几乎都不重要，它变成了这种默认。

I don't know again, like Apple or Nike, it's like yeah, there's all kinds of shoes you can buy, but there's a reason for someone to buy Nike shoes other than some random brand.

我又不知道了，就像苹果或耐克一样，是的，你可以购买各种各样的鞋子，但除了一些随机品牌之外，有人购买耐克鞋子是有原因的。

Even if the random brand would be actually a better shoe, they still buy Nike because they, I don't know, like the brand.

即使随机品牌实际上是更好的鞋子，他们仍然购买耐克，因为他们，我不知道，喜欢这个品牌。

So then I think both the design of the product but also the design of the brand can be very strong things that pull people to your company or to the product.

所以我认为产品的设计和品牌的设计都可以成为非常强大的东西，吸引人们来到你的公司或产品。

Lenny: Is there anything you've learned about just building a brand over the course of building Linear, something you find to be really important in actually building that perception that Linear is really great and amazing

Lenny：在创建 Linear 的过程中，您是否学到了关于创建品牌的任何东西，您发现这些东西对于真正建立 Linear 真的很棒和令人惊奇的认知非常重要

Karri Saarinen: To me, I think the brand should be always authentic and it should, I think even if people can't articulate it, if people start to feel like something is off, I think there can be companies or startups, they think about brands like, oh brand is the logo or the colors of the website or something.

Karri Saarinen：对我来说，我认为品牌应该始终是真实的，而且它应该是真实的，我认为即使人们无法清楚地表达出来，如果人们开始感觉有些东西不对劲，我认为可能会有公司或初创公司，他们对品牌的看法是，哦，品牌是网站的徽标或颜色之类的。

And then they do the same thing and some other company does and then they think, "Okay, now we have a brand." But you actually didn't think about what's your brand, what is the message or voice you want to talk about?

然后他们和其他一些公司做同样的事情，然后他们想，“好吧，现在我们有了一个品牌。”但你其实没有想过你的品牌是什么，你想传达的信息或声音是什么？

And it doesn't also, the brand doesn't happen overnight.

但事实并非如此，品牌也不是一朝一夕就能形成的。

Karri Saarinen: So it's basically just you start in the beginning and when you start a company you don't have no brand and so you have to create it and you create it over time by the things you do, the things you say, how you say them and how do you approach things, how do you treat customers, how do you build the website or the product?

卡里·萨里宁：所以基本上就是你从一开始就开始，当你创办一家公司时，你没有品牌，所以你必须创建它，并且随着时间的推移，你通过你所做的事情、你所说的事情、你如何说它们以及你如何处理事情、你如何对待客户、你如何构建网站或产品来创建它？

All of these things starts to build this idea, what does this company mean to me in people's heads?

所有这些事情开始构建这个想法，这家公司在人们的头脑中对我意味着什么？

Karri Saarinen: I know we both worked at Airbnb and I think Brian Chesky is, I think the brand was probably the most important thing for him.

Karri Saarinen：我知道我们都在 Airbnb 工作过，我认为 Brian Chesky 也是，我认为这个品牌对他来说可能是最重要的。

And I don't know how many hours or meetings or conversations there was about the brand and the brand was always, it's part of everything the company does.

我不知道有多少时间、会议或对话是关于这个品牌的，而品牌一直是公司所做的一切的一部分。

Because it's true.

因为这是真的。

It's like, yeah, you could book things like places to stay in a lot of places on the web, but when people think about, "Oh, I want to stay in some cool place," they're going to think about Airbnb.

就像，是的，你可以在网上很多地方预订住宿之类的东西，但当人们想到“哦，我想住在某个很酷的地方”时，他们就会想到 Airbnb。

It's like they're not going to think about those other places.

就好像他们不会考虑其他地方。

So that's the power of the brand, people stop thinking about the other things or they start understanding, okay, this is the thing for this.

这就是品牌的力量，人们不再考虑其他事情，或者他们开始​​理解，好吧，这就是这个的目的。

Lenny: And it's part of the reason Airbnb's been able to build a direct destination where people aren't Googling, I want to stay in a home.

莱尼：这也是 Airbnb 能够建立一个人们不用谷歌搜索的直接目的地的部分原因，我想住在家里。

They're like airbnb.com, which gives Airbnb such a massive advantage not having to run ads on Facebook and Google or SEO.

它们就像airbnb.com，这为Airbnb 提供了巨大的优势，而无需在Facebook 和Google 或SEO 上投放广告。

It's just like people know Airbnb and they just go straight there.

这就像人们知道 Airbnb 并且直接前往那里一样。

And there's very few sites where people go, "I'm going to go straight there and look for some," knowing that they can also compare hotels on all these other sites.

人们会去的网站很少，“我会直接去那里寻找一些”，因为他们知道他们还可以比较所有其他网站上的酒店。

Lenny: Coming back to design briefly, just very practically, how do you guys do design reviews?

Lenny：简单地回到设计上来，非常实用，你们是如何进行设计评审的？

Just how do you actually go about reviewing what's going at, and then this may be too big a question, but just whatever you can share here, is just how do you know when it's done?

你实际上如何去审查正在发生的事情，然后这可能是一个太大的问题，但无论你在这里可以分享什么，你如何知道它何时完成？

How do you know when it's ready and approved?

您如何知道它何时准备好并获得批准？

Karri sealed, checkbox, ready to go.

卡里密封，复选框，准备出发。

Karri Saarinen: We've been exploring different ways of doing this.

Karri Saarinen：我们一直在探索不同的方法来做到这一点。

I think today, I still run the design team, so I do see some of the designs on a weekly basis and then, or one of the other co-founders or head of product, we are basically the sponsors for the projects.

我想今天，我仍然管理着设计团队，所以我确实每周都会看到一些设计，然后，或者其他联合创始人或产品负责人之一，我们基本上是项目的赞助商。

So then we are responsible reviewing the work.

那么我们就负责审查工作。

And so we might just have a meeting where we go through, okay, well let's go through the demo and people can explain what's going on and how they think about it and why.

因此，我们可能只是召开一次会议，让我们进行一下演示，人们可以解释正在发生的事情以及他们的想法和原因。

And then we might have feedback, okay, this seems strange or something, and then just after that I might just go into the product myself and try it out.

然后我们可能会收到反馈，好吧，这看起来很奇怪什么的，然后我可能会自己进入产品并尝试一下。

And then what happens sometimes, it's in the initial stages, obviously we're not going to start fixing everything, it's just more like let's try to get the main concept there and figure out how it works.

然后有时会发生什么，它处于初始阶段，显然我们不会开始修复所有问题，这更像是让我们尝试了解主要概念并弄清楚它是如何工作的。

Karri Saarinen: But then before we are launching it, I might just go in and try it out and try the different states and click it around.

Karri Saarinen：但是在我们启动它之前，我可能会进去尝试一下，尝试不同的状态并单击它。

And sometimes I find things, like we were building this threading to comments and then when it looked all good in the demos and stuff, and then I went to try it and try different lengths of messages and stuff and then I start to see, oh, sometimes the animations are kind of janky or it's just off.

有时我会发现一些事情，比如我们正在为评论构建这个线程，然后当它在演示和其他东西中看起来一切都很好时，然后我去尝试它并尝试不同长度的消息和东西，然后我开始看到，哦，有时动画有点卡顿或者只是关闭。

They don't go the right way, the screen doesn't scroll exactly right.

它们没有走正确的方向，屏幕也没有完全正确地滚动。

So then I just captured those things and send it to the team.

所以我就捕获了这些东西并将其发送给团队。

And so we had to pull back the release a little bit until those things were fixed.

因此，我们不得不稍微推迟发布，直到这些问题得到解决。

That one was, it's very, I think a simple concept and it's very known concept like, okay, this is how threading comments works.

我认为这是一个非常简单的概念，也是众所周知的概念，就像，好吧，这就是线程评论的工作原理。

So that was mostly about, okay, what's the execution of this?

所以这主要是关于，好吧，这个的执行是什么？

Karri Saarinen: But then we have projects where we are not sure exactly how this should work and we can try it ourselves.

Karri Saarinen：但是我们有一些项目，我们不确定这到底应该如何运作，但我们可以自己尝试一下。

We also have to see how companies use it.

我们还必须看看公司如何使用它。

So something like we built this feature project updates and it's a common thing companies do.

因此，像我们构建此功能项目更新之类的事情是公司所做的常见事情。

It's like you need to write an update on a project.

这就像您需要编写项目的更新一样。

Is it yellow, green, red?

是黄、绿、红吗？

And companies have very different ways of doing this in different tools and we just thought, well, I think it would be really nice if it's inside Linear and the team, when they work on a project, they can write the update, Linear can also capture some of the stats, what actually happened.

公司在不同的工具中有非常不同的方法来做到这一点，我们只是想，好吧，我认为如果它在 Linear 和团队内部，那就太好了，当他们从事项目时，他们可以编写更新，Linear 还可以捕获一些统计数据，实际发生了什么。

I think with that feature it's been working well, but then also now it'd be exploring.

我认为这个功能一直运行良好，但现在它也在探索中。

It's like after using it a while we think, oh actually, if there could be more robust way of following these updates.

就像使用它一段时间后，我们想，哦，实际上，是否可以有更强大的方式来跟踪这些更新。

Maybe the leadership could just get these updates over email or maybe when you have a lot of updates you should have a search or a filtering system or something.

也许领导层可以通过电子邮件获取这些更新，或者当你有很多更新时，你应该有一个搜索或过滤系统或其他东西。

So I think a lot of times we just think, okay, this is the scope of it for now and we are okay launching this and the execution is good.

所以我想很多时候我们只是想，好吧，这就是目前的范围，我们可以启动这个并且执行得很好。

But we know that this is not the fully figured out version and we just need to see people trying it out and see the feedback.

但我们知道这不是完全弄清楚的版本，我们只需要看到人们尝试并查看反馈。

Lenny: So it sounds like on the decision of whether it goes out or not, it's kind of this intuitive feeling from your actual experience trying it out, feeling gut level, this is ready or this needs a little work?

莱尼：所以听起来像是在决定是否推出时，这是一种来自你实际尝试经验的直观感觉，感觉直觉水平，这是准备好了还是需要一些工作？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I would say a lot of things that we do is more like that but we don't do AP testing or we don't do specific, go follow certain metrics or something.

Karri Saarinen：是的，我会说我们做的很多事情都更像这样，但我们不做 AP 测试，或者我们不做具体的事情，而是遵循某些指标或其他东西。

Sometimes we do have telemetry or we can look at how people use certain things and we sometimes do that, but that's not usually the goal we have in mind, like, yeah, we should move this number this much.

有时我们确实有遥测，或者我们可以看看人们如何使用某些东西，我们有时会这样做，但这通常不是我们心中的目标，就像，是的，我们应该把这个数字移动这么多。

So it's more about based on the understanding of the problem we have and based on the , what we think is right, is this the right solution and is this a good enough solution to be released to the customers?

因此，更多的是基于对我们所遇到的问题的理解，以及基于我们认为正确的解决方案，这是正确的解决方案吗？这是一个足够好的解决方案吗？可以发布给客户吗？

Lenny: One more question along this thread is how do you actually structure these reviews?

莱尼：这个话题的另一个问题是，你实际上是如何构建这些评论的？

It sounds like you go straight to a prototype.

听起来像是直接进入原型。

Is there a design review phase?

是否有设计审查阶段？

Is it all kind of informal and people just review, here's what we need your feedback on?

是不是都是非正式的，人们只是评论一下，这就是我们需要您反馈的内容？

Karri Saarinen: So projects don't necessarily have specific states to them, but I would say roughly, usually we do start with design.

Karri Saarinen：所以项目不一定有特定的状态，但我粗略地说，通常我们确实从设计开始。

So there's some explorations on the design, there's different ways that we could approach this or sometimes there's just one way because pretty clear.

因此，我们对设计进行了一些探索，我们可以采用不同的方法来实现这一目标，或者有时只有一种方法，因为非常清楚。

But then what I said before, is that we do try to get into the building phase as quickly as possible because then we can also see is this direction actually reasonable and is there some problems it causes or how does it just generally feel here?

但我之前说过，我们确实会尝试尽快进入建设阶段，因为这样我们也可以看到这个方向是否真的合理，是否会导致一些问题，或者这里总体感觉如何？

So I think that there isn't specific review stages.

所以我认为没有具体的审查阶段。

It's more like, yeah, let's check on this project every week or every two weeks and then before releasing, let's also make a review of it and really test it out, is it the quality we want?

更像是，是的，让我们每周或每两周检查一次这个项目，然后在发布之前，让我们对其进行审查并真正测试它，这是我们想要的质量吗？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So that's a good segue to another area I wanted to spend some time, which is the Linear Method.

这是我想花一些时间的另一个领域的一个很好的延续，即线性方法。

You espouse this way of building product that you call the Linear Method, which you publish online and willing to in the show notes.

您支持这种称为“线性方法”的产品构建方式，您将其在线发布并愿意在展会笔记中使用。

And I just want to ask a few questions around this way of building product.

我只想围绕这种构建产品的方式提出几个问题。

One is, you are big on this idea of building opinionated software.

一是，您热衷于构建固执己见的软件。

Can you talk about just what does that mean and then maybe give an example or two of how you actually have done that at Linear?

您能否谈谈这意味着什么，然后举一两个例子来说明您在 Linear 是如何做到这一点的？

Karri Saarinen: So first with the Linear Method, why did we create it in the first place?

Karri Saarinen：首先，我们为什么要创建线性方法？

Is we just believe that there is more of this modern ways of building software and thinking about it.

我们只是相信有更多这种构建软件和思考软件的现代方法吗？

And we wanted to share some of our thinking on it.

我们想分享我们对此的一些想法。

And that's also, it relates to how we built Linear as well.

这也与我们构建 Linear 的方式有关。

So you might understand why we make some choices because this is the way we think about making these choices.

所以你可能会理解为什么我们会做出一些选择，因为这就是我们考虑做出这些选择的方式。

So we are trying to share our thinking behind the product and also just like, here's the product and figure it out.

因此，我们试图分享我们对产品背后的想法，就像，这是产品并弄清楚它。

Karri Saarinen: So the opinionated piece, I personally have this belief that productivity software should be, and especially company software should be opinionated.

Karri Saarinen：关于固执己见的文章，我个人认为生产力软件应该是固执己见的，尤其是公司软件应该是固执己见的。

I think that what the productivity software is trying to do is make people productive.

我认为生产力软件试图做的就是提高人们的生产力。

And I think what productive means is you actually do something that matters for the company, which is, I don't know, build some new feature or fix something or design something.

我认为高效意味着你实际上做了一些对公司重要的事情，我不知道，就是构建一些新功能或修复某些内容或设计某些内容。

Karri Saarinen: All of those things are eventually, they provide some kind of value for the customer.

Karri Saarinen：所有这些最终都会为客户提供某种价值。

I think there is this ideas or notions in the world that flexible software is great.

我认为世界上存在这样的想法或观念：灵活的软件很棒。

I'm like, I think it can be great sometimes.

我想，我认为有时这很棒。

But what happens is people start spending a lot of time figuring things out.

但实际情况是，人们开始花费大量时间来解决问题。

Like, how does this feature work?

比如，这个功能是如何工作的？

You can use it in 10 different ways and then every team or everyone figures out the different way of doing it.

您可以通过 10 种不同的方式使用它，然后每个团队或每个人都会找出不同的方法。

Karri Saarinen: So our thinking is we like to provide this good default or good opinions.

Karri Saarinen：所以我们的想法是我们喜欢提供这种好的默认或好的意见。

Like, this is how the feature works and this is how the workflow works.

就像，这就是功能的工作原理，这就是工作流程的工作原理。

So you, as a user or as a team don't have to think about it and you can focus on the work you do.

因此，作为用户或团队，您不必考虑它，您可以专注于您所做的工作。

And the other thing is, my design mantra is always design something for someone.

另一件事是，我的设计格言总是为某人设计一些东西。

It is very hard to design everything for everyone because you just end up with a very generalized solution.

为每个人设计一切是非常困难的，因为你最终会得到一个非常通用的解决方案。

So then what we are trying to do with the opinionated solution is that that's the best solution or at the most optimized solution we think of.

那么我们试图用固执己见的解决方案做的是，这是我们想到的最佳解决方案或最优化的解决方案。

Karri Saarinen: And then when you use it, hopefully you agree and you can feel that it's most optimized.

Karri Saarinen：然后当你使用它时，希望你同意并且你能感觉到它是最优化的。

So being opinionated, I think the value it provides people is you don't have to think too much or spend more time on the tool than you do on your actual work.

因此，固执己见，我认为它为人们提供的价值是，您不必考虑太多或在该工具上花费比实际工作更多的时间。

Lenny: And then another core element of the Linear Method is something you call cycles.

莱尼：线性方法的另一个核心元素就是所谓的循环。

I know Linear is all around this idea of creating cycles and working in cycles.

我知道 Linear 就是围绕着创建循环和循环工作的想法。

Can you talk about what is a cycle and how it works at Linear?

您能谈谈什么是循环以及它在 Linear 是如何工作的吗？

Karri Saarinen: So for example, the cycles, it's optional, not that the whole team has to use it or not that the whole company has to use it, but it's there as you can turn it on or off.

Karri Saarinen：例如，循环，它是可选的，并不是整个团队都必须使用它，也不是整个公司都必须使用它，而是它就在那里，你可以打开或关闭它。

But basically, I think why we created cycles is that I think any team that works on software or some other products, you always have almost infinite list of things to do and that list gets longer every day.

但基本上，我认为我们创建周期的原因是，我认为任何从事软件或其他产品的团队，你总是有几乎无限的要做的事情清单，而且这个清单每天都在变得越来越长。

And it can be sometimes very distracting for the individual or for the team to decide, there's a new thing coming in, should we work on that or should we work on this other thing we decided in the past?

有时，对于个人或团队来说，决定时可能会非常分散注意力，有一个新事物出现，我们应该致力于这个，还是应该致力于我们过去决定的其他事情？

So the cycles is just a way to say that for the next week or the next two weeks or whatever timeframe, we are going to work on these things and these other things we think are the priority or the focus for this timeframe.

因此，周期只是一种方式，表明在下周或接下来的两周或任何时间范围内，我们将致力于这些事情以及我们认为是该时间范围内的优先事项或重点的其他事情。

Karri Saarinen: And then the team can try to focus on those things.

Karri Saarinen：然后团队可以尝试专注于这些事情。

Now if something happens, like I don't know, we really need to jump on this other thing.

现在，如果发生什么事情，就像我不知道的那样，我们真的需要采取其他措施。

At least there was some kind of initial state that we decided before we want to do these things and then now something else happened and so now we have to go on this thing.

至少在我们想做这些事情之前我们决定了某种初始状态，然后现在发生了其他事情，所以现在我们必须继续做这件事。

So you have an answer when someone comes to you to ask, "Why didn't you do this other thing before?" Then you can say, "Well, we did decide to do that, but then something happened and we had to do this other thing."

因此，当有人来问你“你为什么之前不做这件事呢？”时，你就有了答案。然后你可以说：“好吧，我们确实决定这样做，但后来发生了一些事情，我们不得不做另一件事。”

Karri Saarinen: So the cycles, it's very similar to sprints, but we like to call it cycles because we are not really sprinting anywhere.

卡里·萨里宁：所以循环，它与冲刺非常相似，但我们喜欢称之为循环，因为我们并不是真正在任何地方冲刺。

The cycles also run on automated schedule.

这些周期也按自动计划运行。

So it's like you don't have to think about which day does it start?

这样一来，您就不必考虑从哪一天开始了？

Or every time, set it up manually so it just runs automatically.

或者每次都手动设置它，以便它自动运行。

And so it's just meant to help the team to focus on, let's just focus on this few things and forget about the infinite list of other things that are in the background.

因此，这只是为了帮助团队集中精力，让我们只专注于这几件事，而忘记后台无数的其他事情。

Lenny: You mentioned earlier that you don't set metrics goals and so let me dig into that a little bit.

Lenny：您之前提到过您没有设定指标目标，所以让我深入探讨一下这一点。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

You don't really have number goals for features for launches and things like that?

您真的没有发布功能之类的数字目标吗？

And so let me start there and then I have a follow-up question.

让我从这里开始，然后我有一个后续问题。

Karri Saarinen: So we might have a company level goal sometimes, for example, weekly active users, that's a metric we want to increase or something.

Karri Saarinen：所以我们有时可能会有一个公司级别的目标，例如每周活跃用户，这是我们想要增加的指标或其他指标。

But in terms of specific features, we don't have goals for those.

但就具体功能而言，我们没有目标。

And the reason is that I think a product like us or a system that is used by different kinds of companies, and it's like a system made of multiple different parts and it's not necessarily like you want to optimize any specific thing about it.

原因是，我认为像我们这样的产品或由不同类型的公司使用的系统，它就像一个由多个不同部分组成的系统，不一定要优化它的任何具体内容。

Also, companies are a little bit different, so their usage of different features can differ because they just operate slightly differently or their team size is different or the setup of the team is different or the culture is different.

此外，公司之间略有不同，因此他们对不同功能的使用可能会有所不同，因为他们的运作方式略有不同，或者他们的团队规模不同，或者团队的设置不同，或者文化不同。

Karri Saarinen: So I think for example, I don't know, some Instagram or some of these apps, it's like, yeah, we need to drive engagement and that's the main feature.

Karri Saarinen：所以我认为，例如，我不知道，一些 Instagram 或其中一些应用程序，就像，是的，我们需要推动参与度，这是主要功能。

That's the main metric for every feature.

这是每个功能的主要指标。

We don't actually have that.

我们实际上没有那个。

We just think that there should be features that help companies and sometimes we can look at the metrics before we start working on it, like let's see what this state of things are, but we don't necessarily want to set, oh, we need to increase this specific metric by X.

我们只是认为应该有一些功能可以帮助公司，有时我们可以在开始研究之前查看指标，比如让我们看看事情的状态是什么，但我们不一定要设置，哦，我们需要将这个特定指标增加X。

It's more like we want to solve this problem.

这更像是我们想要解决这个问题。

And ideally, the success what it looks like customers agree that the problem is solved or they enjoy the solution and it's not like that the metrics went up.

理想情况下，客户同意问题已解决或者他们喜欢该解决方案，而不是指标上升，这就是成功。

Lenny: So just to summarize so far, you have no metrics, you have no experiments, you have essentially no PMs, just one product leader.

Lenny：总结一下，到目前为止，你没有指标，没有实验，基本上没有产品经理，只有一名产品负责人。

You spend a lot of time on design and craft and making things awesome.

你花了很多时间在设计和工艺上，让事情变得很棒。

I'm curious just what you think it takes to make a company work in that way?

我很好奇您认为如何才能让一家公司以这种方式运作？

Because this is pretty different from how a lot of other founders think and a lot of other product teams work.

因为这与许多其他创始人的想法和许多其他产品团队的工作方式非常不同。

Karri Saarinen: We like to talk about this internally, I like this mixture of magic and science and how we described, there's always some level of science that we do.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我们喜欢在内部讨论这个问题，我喜欢魔法和科学的结合以及我们的描述方式，我们总是在做一定程度的科学。

And I think some companies are very scientific on their product management that they like to measure everything and they do a lot of tests and things, but we just decided we don't think that's necessary or that's good for us.

我认为有些公司的产品管理非常科学，他们喜欢衡量一切，他们做了很多测试和事情，但我们只是认为这没有必要，或者这对我们有好处。

So the science for us, means that we do talk to users a lot and any project we start with, we do some level of user research and as founders, different people on the team, we might have weekly calls with customers or users.

因此，对我们来说，科学意味着我们确实与用户进行了大量交谈，对于我们开始的任何项目，我们都会进行一定程度的用户研究，作为创始人、团队中的不同人员，我们可能每周都会与客户或用户进行通话。

We also encourage everyone in the team, go to the customer Slack, they answer people questions.

我们还鼓励团队中的每个人，去客户 Slack，他们回答人们的问题。

We have shared Slack channels with customers.

我们与客户共享 Slack 渠道。

Anyone, I sometimes go answer the questions there.

大家好，我有时会去那里回答问题。

I also see when they complain about something.

当他们抱怨某事时我也看到了。

I think the first part is the whole team has to be really understanding the product and the customers and the problems people are facing and have that empathy and as well as the understanding what is the state of things today.

我认为第一部分是整个团队必须真正了解产品、客户以及人们面临的问题，并具有同理心，并了解当今的状况。

Karri Saarinen: And then we talk about that.

卡里·沙里宁：然后我们讨论这个。

And then sometimes we might pull up stats and see, oh, wonder, is there some kind of patterns we see, okay, these kind of companies are using this thing more and what do we think about it?

有时我们可能会调出统计数据，然后看看，哦，想知道，我们是否看到某种模式，好吧，这些公司更多地使用这个东西，我们对此有何看法？

But usually we have some kind of question we want to answer.

但通常我们有一些想要回答的问题。

It's like, I wonder what is going on.

就像，我想知道发生了什么事。

And then we look at it versus let's pull some metrics and then decide that we should increase this metric.

然后我们看看它，然后我们提取一些指标，然后决定我们应该增加这个指标。

And then the magic part is what happens when you build this understanding, everyone in the company builds.

然后神奇的部分是当你建立这种理解时会发生什么，公司中的每个人都建立这种理解。

It's not like everyone has the same understanding, but everyone builds more of that customer and product understanding.

并不是每个人都有相同的理解，但每个人都对客户和产品有了更多的理解。

Then we have discussions like what should we be doing or what decision we want to make here?

然后我们进行讨论，比如我们应该做什么或者我们想在这里做出什么决定？

Then everyone is much more informed of actual reality of the customers or the product.

这样每个人都会更加了解客户或产品的实际情况。

Karri Saarinen: And then we think you can much more use your intuition or thinking to do those decisions so you don't have to use data or metrics to back those things up.

Karri Saarinen：然后我们认为您可以更多地利用您的直觉或思维来做出这些决策，这样您就不必使用数据或指标来支持这些事情。

So I think the main thing is the whole company has to be with the customers or talk to them and then understand where the product might work well or where it might fall short.

所以我认为最重要的是整个公司必须与客户在一起或与他们交谈，然后了解产品在哪些方面可能表现良好或在哪些方面可能存在缺陷。

Lenny: That's what I imagined you were going to say, and I love hearing that.

莱尼：这就是我想象你会说的话，我喜欢听这个。

For someone that wants to create a similar culture, is there tactically anything you find, just understand if your employees and engineers, designers have enough of that context and really understand the problem?

对于想要创建类似文化的人来说，您是否可以在战术上找到任何东西，只需了解您的员工和工程师、设计师是否有足够的背景知识并真正理解问题？

Karri Saarinen: I think it's always, different people in a company will have different understandings.

Karri Saarinen：我认为公司里不同的人总是会有不同的理解。

It's not like you can expect everyone will every day go to see everything and has this.

你不可能期望每个人每天都会去看所有的东西并拥有这个。

But we do sometimes sessions with the team or we do record videos with the customers, we write notes and we share this with people.

但我们有时会与团队进行会议，或者与客户一起录制视频，我们会写笔记并与人们分享。

I feel like again, it's fairly apparent, if you know your customers or the product, it's a very different way you can talk about it versus if you don't have any idea.

我再次觉得，很明显，如果你了解你的客户或产品，那么与你没有任何想法相比，你谈论它的方式会非常不同。

I think if you don't have any idea, you probably don't even know what to say.

我想如果你没有任何想法，你可能甚至不知道该说什么。

Karri Saarinen: So I think it's apparent if people have that then, it's not like every project's like we need everyone to have this understanding.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：所以我认为很明显，如果人们有这样的理解，那么并不是每个项目都需要每个人都有这种理解。

Probably, usually enough if one or two people have that understanding or have different understanding of different things.

也许，如果一两个人有这种理解或对不同事物有不同的理解，通常就足够了。

So I think again, I feel like it's a culture thing.

所以我再想一想，我觉得这是一个文化问题。

I think the other thing is you just have to kind of believe in it.

我认为另一件事是你必须相信它。

Karri Saarinen: I think sometimes people use data a lot or too much because they're worrying or they're afraid that, will I make the wrong choice?

Karri Saarinen：我认为有时人们会大量或过多地使用数据，因为他们担心或担心我会做出错误的选择吗？

And I'm using data to make the choice for me.

我正在使用数据来为我做出选择。

But then you might still feel like this is not the right choice, but the data is telling me is the right choice and then turns out maybe it was the right choice or not.

但你可能仍然觉得这不是正确的选择，但数据告诉我这是正确的选择，然后事实证明这可能是正确的选择，也可能不是。

But it's more like, again, like a practice thing.

但这更像是一次练习。

I think the company and you need to be okay that sometimes we make mistakes and we made the wrong choice and then we just can fix it.

我认为公司和你需要接受，有时我们会犯错误，我们会做出错误的选择，然后我们就可以解决它。

But at least we made that choice and the data didn't make that choice for us.

但至少我们做出了这样的选择，而数据并没有为我们做出这样的选择。

Karri Saarinen: The data didn't make that choice for us.

Karri Saarinen：数据并没有为我们做出这样的选择。

Lenny: What's interesting about this is if you've heard the episode on RAMP and how Ramp builds product with Geoff Charles, there's such different ways of building product.

Lenny：有趣的是，如果您听说过 RAMP 的剧集以及 Ramp 如何与 Geoff Charles 一起构建产品，就会发现构建产品的方式有很多不同。

Ramp is all about velocity, shipping all the time, metrics, measuring everything.

Ramp 是关于速度、所有时间的运输、指标、衡量一切的。

And your approach is almost the opposite.

而你的做法几乎相反。

And I think what's interesting there, as a takeaway, is just there's many ways to do it.

我认为有趣的是，作为外卖，有很多方法可以做到这一点。

You just have to do it almost fully and you have to have really specific people.

你只需要几乎完全做到这一点，并且你必须有真正特定的人。

It feels like the people want to work in a certain way.

感觉人们希望以某种方式工作。

And a lot of it I think also is the founder has to be natural to the way the founder operates and thinks about building and building a company.

我认为，很大程度上，创始人必须熟悉创始人的运营方式以及对创建和建设公司的思考方式。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, and for sure.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，当然。

And then if you look at successful companies and Amazon is very different than Apple in how they operate.

如果你看看成功的公司，就会发现亚马逊的运营方式与苹果有很大不同。

And I think both of them are successful, but not in the same way.

我认为他们都很成功，但方式不同。

Karri Saarinen: So I think it's, again, it's like...

卡里·沙里宁：所以我认为，这就像......

Yeah, it's a decision you make as a company or as a founder, what kind company you want to build.

是的，这是你作为公司或创始人做出的决定，你想建立什么样的公司。

I do think there is some aspects of the domain that you're in.

我确实认为您所在的领域有某些方面。

What does that domain and the problem space require from that company?

该领域和问题空间对该公司有何要求？

And for us, I think it's...

对于我们来说，我认为这是...

I think we are in the retention business.

我认为我们从事的是保留业务。

And the trust business that ideally we have a company starting use Linear very early on and then they stay with us forever.

理想情况下，我们有一家公司很早就开始使用 Linear 的信托业务，然后它们会永远留在我们身边。

And I think the only way we can do that is we need to continuously deliver them good quality product and maintain that trust that we are...

我认为我们能做到这一点的唯一方法是我们需要不断地为他们提供优质的产品并保持我们的信任......

That we don't fail them more or somehow otherwise mistreat them.

我们不会再让他们失望，也不会以其他方式虐待他们。

Karri Saarinen: And I think some businesses are much more transactional where it's like, yeah, we just need to make this e-commerce sale.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为有些企业的交易性更强，就像，是的，我们只需要进行电子商务销售。

And then once it's done, we don't care what happens.

一旦完成，我们就不在乎会发生什么。

Karri Saarinen: So our case, it's more like we really need to build this relationship over time.

卡里·沙里宁：所以我们的情况更像是我们确实需要随着时间的推移建立这种关系。

And then that's why I think some of the choices we make are also more about respecting the customer versus we're just wanting to drive the revenue of the company.

这就是为什么我认为我们做出的一些选择更多的是为了尊重客户，而不是我们只是想增加公司的收入。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Such an important point.: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences.

如此重要的一点：这一集是由 Pendo 为您带来的，Pendo 是一个为以产品为主导的公司构建突破性数字体验的一体化平台。

With all the tools you need, all in one simple-to-use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.

Pendo 拥有您所需的所有工具，全部集中在一个易于使用的平台中，可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。

With product analytics, low-code in-app guides, user feedback, and session replay, customizable roadmaps, and AI generated insights and campaigns, Pendo is the only solution you need to build, ship and optimize a successful product-led motion.

凭借产品分析、低代码应用内指南、用户反馈和会话重播、可定制路线图以及 AI 生成的见解和活动，Pendo 是您构建、交付和优化成功的产品主导动议所需的唯一解决方案。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Such an important point.: But don't take my word for it.

如此重要的一点：但不要相信我的话。

Create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.

立即创建免费的 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的每个角落构建更好的体验。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Such an important point.: PS, want to take your product led knowhow a step further?

如此重要的一点：PS，想要让您的产品主导技术更进一步吗？

Check out Pendo's lineup of certification courses led by top PLG experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.

查看 Pendo 的认证课程阵容，这些课程由顶级 PLG 专家主导，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Such an important point.: Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.

如此重要的一点：今天就在 pendo 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。

io/lenny.

io/莱尼。

That's pendo.io/lenny.

那是 pendo.io/lenny。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Such an important point.: Something you're really good at personally is focus.

非常重要的一点：你个人真正擅长的事情就是专注。

I find that just trying to get you on this podcast was a lot of like, "Hey Karri.

我发现只是想让你加入这个播客就像是，“嘿卡里。

Hey, have you thought about this yet?" And I know that a lot of VCs are just reaching out to you all the time, all these really fan CVCs that are just trying to talk to you and get close to you.

嘿嘿，你有没有想过这个问题？”我知道很多风险投资家一直在与你联系，所有这些真正粉丝的风险投资家只是想与你交谈并接近你。

And I just know you're really good at avoiding shiny objects and staying really focused and really heads down.

我只知道你非常擅长避开闪亮的物体，并保持真正的专注和低头。

And I've always wanted to just ask you, how do you do that?

我一直想问你，你是怎么做到的？

Do you have any tricks, systems, processes, approaches to staying focused other than just ignore the inbox mostly?

除了忽略收件箱之外，你还有什么技巧、系统、流程和方法可以让你保持专注吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I don't think there's any complicated processes.

我认为没有什么复杂的过程。

And so I think one of the things, I was in YC in 2012 and one of the main things they say there is what you should be focusing on when you build a startup is talk to customers, build the product, exercise.

所以我认为，我 2012 年在 YC 时，他们说的主要事情之一是，当你建立一家初创公司时，你应该关注的是与客户交谈、构建产品、锻炼。

And if you find yourself doing something else, then those three things, it's probably the wrong thing to do.

如果你发现自己在做其他事情，那么这三件事可能就是错误的做法。

Lenny: And the third one you said exercise or...

莱尼：第三个你说的是锻炼或者……

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，是的。

And the exercise is that it's important for you to be healthy or not just burn yourself out.

锻炼表明，保持健康对你很重要，而不是让自己精疲力尽。

So I think it was a balance to that.

所以我认为这是一个平衡。

So I'm doing those three things.: I think the thinking there is, I think we often as a company also talk about this, and very early on.

所以我正在做这三件事：我认为我们作为一家公司也经常谈论这个问题，而且很早就开始了。

And I use this the same way and I think the company can use it the same way.

我以同样的方式使用它，我认为公司也可以以同样的方式使用它。

I think there's always things that you're supposed to do or it sounds like a good idea to do.

我认为总有一些事情是你应该做的，或者听起来是个好主意。

And it could be like, yeah, come to this podcast.

可能就像，是的，来观看这个播客。

And I actually think before it wasn't like...

其实我觉得以前不是这样的...

So I'm doing those three things.: Or I always have this question, is this important to do now or is it important to maybe do later?

所以我正在做这三件事：或者我总是有这个问题，现在做这件事重要还是以后做重要？

So I think, for example, the question on this podcast is I didn't feel like it was important to do it earlier because we weren't at the stage or a scale or something that I think it'd be as interesting or something.

所以我认为，例如，这个播客的问题是，我觉得早点做并不重要，因为我们还没有达到我认为有趣的阶段或规模或其他东西。

So I think it was a better timing to do it later.

所以我认为稍后再做是一个更好的时机。

So I'm doing those three things.: Similarly, when we built the product, initially we were just very focused on is this really important thing to do?

所以我正在做这三件事。：同样，当我们构建产品时，最初我们只是非常关注这真的很重要吗？

There's always like, yeah, you could get SOC 2 security certificate.

总有人会说，是的，您可以获得 SOC 2 安全证书。

And we know that eventually we need to get it, but we don't need it today.

我们知道最终我们需要得到它，但今天我们不需要它。

So we just say no to that.

所以我们对此说不。

And if customer asks for it, so we say we don't have it.

如果客户要求，我们就会说我们没有。

And we'll have it one day but not now.

总有一天我们会得到它，但不是现在。

And see, a lot of times people are like, "Okay, that's fine."

你看，很多时候人们会说，“好吧，没关系。”

So I'm doing those three things.: And then internally, we also talk about this, you knowing RPG games, you have the main quest lines and then you have the side quest lines.

所以我正在做这三件事：然后在内部，我们也讨论这个，你知道角色扮演游戏，你有主要任务线，然后你有支线任务线。

And we often talk about the companies avoid the side quests.

我们经常谈论公司避免支线任务。

There's always ideas people have and it's a good thing and it's like people have ideas, but then it might be like, "Yeah, let's make this T-shirt, so let's make this thing." And then we're like, "Well, does it help the customers?

人们总是有想法，这是一件好事，就像人们有想法一样，但随后可能会说，“是的，让我们制作这件 T 恤，所以让我们制作这个东西。”然后我们会想，“嗯，这对客户有帮助吗？

Does it help the product?" This sounds like a side quest to me, and basically means we shouldn't do it.

对产品有帮助吗？”这对我来说听起来像是一个支线任务，基本上意味着我们不应该这样做。

This doesn't progress the main quest line, which is building this product and making it awesome for these customers.

这并没有推进主要任务线，即构建这个产品并使其对这些客户来说非常棒。

So I'm doing those three things.: So it's similar to me.

所以我正在做这三件事：所以这和我很相似。

It's like I operate this way personally too, that I think about "Is this important for the main quest line in building this company for me?

就好像我个人也是这样运作的，我会想“这对于我建立这家公司的主要任务线很重要吗？

Or is this something that I can ignore for now, or something that I can do later and it makes more sense then?"

或者这是我现在可以忽略的事情，还是我可以稍后做的事情，然后它才更有意义？”

Lenny: That is such incredibly good advice.

莱尼：这是非常好的建议。

Basically ask yourself, "How important is this to do now?

基本上问自己：“现在做这件事有多重要？

And is this the main quest or is this a side quest?" Amazing.

这是主线任务还是支线任务？”惊人的。

Lenny: Okay, so let's talk about hiring.

莱尼：好的，我们来谈谈招聘的事吧。

As with most areas, you're very, very, very deliberate about hiring.

与大多数领域一样，您在招聘时非常非常非常慎重。

The bar is so insanely high at Linear, and you also hire very few people.

Linear 的门槛非常高，而且你雇佣的人也很少。

So just a few questions along these lines, just one is when you're hiring people, what do you look for that you think maybe other people are not looking for enough?

因此，我想问几个问题，其中一个是，当你招聘员工时，你在寻找什么，而你认为​​其他人可能没有找到足够的东西？

And where do you spend a lot of time?

你在哪里花费了很多时间？

Karri Saarinen: I think one of the things all of us founders saw in this high-growth company is that sometimes the high growth, especially on the employee side, is not that great.

卡里·萨里宁：我认为我们所有创始人在这家高增长公司中看到的一件事是，有时高增长，特别是在员工方面，并不是那么好。

It can create a lot of chaos or just messiness.

它可能会造成很多混乱或只是混乱。

Or just generally in my past and working in companies, it's almost never...

或者只是一般来说，在我过去和在公司工作时，几乎从来没有......

It was always easier to work with a smaller team, very high quality people than with a very large team of more average people.

与规模较小、素质较高的团队合作总是比与规模较大、人员素质较高的团队合作更容易。

It's almost like it's always faster and better output when you have a much more smaller team.

当你的团队规模小得多时，它几乎总是更快更好的输出。

Karri Saarinen: That was the thing with Linear too, is we just believe that you can actually build better with less people than you can with more people.

Karri Saarinen：这也是 Linear 的问题，我们只是相信，用更少的人实际上可以比用更多的人构建更好的东西。

So that's the basic belief we have.

这就是我们的基本信念。

So then when it goes to hiring, we've been taking very slow steps on it that in almost the first year we didn't hire anyone.

因此，在招聘方面，我们的步伐非常缓慢，几乎在第一年我们就没有招聘任何人。

Then the second year we hired a couple people, and then the second year we hired a few more.

然后第二年我们雇佣了几个人，然后第二年我们又雇佣了几个人。

We never more than doubled in a year.

我们从未在一年内增加超过一倍。

And that's been our guideline that we shouldn't more than double.

这就是我们的指导方针，我们不应增加超过一倍。

And this might be something we change in the future that we actually might do less than that.

这可能是我们将来要改变的事情，但我们实际上可能做得比这少。

Karri Saarinen: But when we look into hiring, it is a couple things.

卡里·沙里宁：但是当我们考虑招聘时，有几个问题。

One is also that it obviously depends on the role, but basically I would say with every role, we often talk about there needs to be some taste or some this kind of understanding of how things are done or what's the...

一是这显然取决于角色，但基本上我会说，对于每个角色，我们经常谈论需要有一些品味或对事情是如何完成的或什么是......的某种理解。

People have more a broader perspective than whatever their role is.

人们比他们的角色有更广阔的视野。

Karri Saarinen: So we talked about the engineering before that they do need to do some of this BM type of stuff.

Karri Saarinen：所以我们之前讨论过工程，他们确实需要做一些 BM 类型的东西。

And so what we look for in them is that if they have some of this skill set or product thinking, or they can articulate why some choices are better than some others, or in their past did they disagree with some of the company's choices or the team's choices, or...

因此，我们在他们身上寻找的是，如果他们具备一些此类技能或产品思维，或者他们能够阐明为什么某些选择比其他选择更好，或者他们过去是否不同意公司或团队的某些选择，或者……

So we want to have this...

所以我们想要这个...

Obviously they need to be good developers, but also do they have this a product sensibility, or do they have a judgment around that?

显然他们需要成为优秀的开发人员，但他们是否具有产品敏感性，或者他们对此有判断力吗？

Karri Saarinen: And this goes similar to, for example, a marketing hire is...

卡里·萨里宁：这类似于，例如，营销招聘是......

We think about, yeah, we do need the marketing skill sets, but then we also want to see that this person also maybe is a good storyteller or they have this appreciation for writing or stories or they have a taste of what's interesting and what's not.

我们想，是的，我们确实需要营销技能，但我们也想看到这个人也可能是一个很好的讲故事的人，或者他们对写作或故事有这种鉴赏力，或者他们对有趣和不有趣的东西有品味。

Karri Saarinen: So I think, or when we hire operations person, we also like to see that they maybe have understanding on HR and maybe it's not their role, but they understand it.

卡里·萨里宁：所以我认为，或者当我们雇用运营人员时，我们也希望看到他们可能对人力资源有了解，也许这不是他们的角色，但他们了解这一点。

And what happens is when you have these people that are a little bit more than their title, it's like the company is, I think, much more easier to manage because it's like people can pick up things more easily or they can work together more easily because everyone has more like a shared areas or you rarely get to the point people say it's not my job.

我认为，当你拥有这些比他们的头衔更重要的人时，公司就更容易管理，因为人们可以更轻松地拿起东西，或者他们可以更轻松地一起工作，因为每个人都有更多的共享区域，或者你很少能达到人们说这不是我的工作的地步。

It's more like people understand, okay, yeah, I'm kind of in operations, but today I need to help on this HR thing, which is okay.

这更像是人们理解的，好吧，是的，我从事运营工作，但今天我需要在人力资源方面提供帮助，这没关系。

And so that's what we look for people is they are more than their...

所以这就是我们寻找的人，他们不仅仅是他们的……

They can take more scope than their skill set would assume, or what normally is expected from them.

他们可以承担比他们的技能所假设的范围或通常对他们的期望更大的范围。

Lenny: So essentially you're looking for these Venn diagram overlappings across different functions and teammates.

Lenny：所以本质上你是在寻找这些维恩图在不同职能和队友之间的重叠。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I think the other thing is, like I said before, is we want to build much...

我认为另一件事是，就像我之前说的，我们想要建造更多......

I think a company that has less employees, which means that it's...

我认为员工较少的公司，这意味着......

Like I said before, we don't want that many specialized roles or too specific areas of ownership or something.

就像我之前说的，我们不想要那么多专门的角色或过于具体的所有权领域或其他什么。

We just think that we could build this...

我们只是认为我们可以建造这个......

We could have less people and those people can take on more scope and they can own more scope.

我们可以减少人员数量，而这些人可以承担更大的范围，并且他们可以拥有更大的范围。

Karri Saarinen: I think traditionally, I feel like in companies, how do you get more scope is that you advance in the levels of the company because there's a lot of different teams and different levels.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我认为传统上，我觉得在公司中，你如何获得更大的范围是你在公司的级别上进步，因为有很多不同的团队和不同的级别。

And then to get any kind of scope, you need to rise into this higher levels.

然后为了获得任何范围，你需要上升到更高的水平。

And what we try to do is you don't actually have to have that many levels, but people can just already, when they start, they can start owning more areas.

我们试图做的是，你实际上不必拥有那么多的级别，但人们已经可以，当他们开始时，他们可以开始拥有更多的区域。

Karri Saarinen: And I think that can be much more also interesting, not to everyone, but I think interesting to many people.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为这可能会更有趣，虽然不是对每个人来说，但我认为对很多人来说都很有趣。

And it's kind of like how I also always felt about us being a designer is I didn't feel like my job is purely just looking at the designs.

这有点像我一直对我们作为一名设计师的感觉，我不觉得我的工作纯粹只是看设计。

I also thought I actually need to be helping this business or helping this other area as well.

我还认为我实际上需要帮助这项业务或帮助其他领域。

So I think it's just also natural to me.

所以我认为这对我来说也是很自然的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So one thing you didn't mention is you have a really unique way of interviewing, which is a paid work trial.

所以你没有提到的一件事是你有一种非常独特的面试方式，那就是带薪工作试用。

Can you just talk about what that is?

你能简单谈谈那是什么吗？

And also just while you're in that area, you talked about testing for product sensibility, so whatever you can share how you actually do that would be awesome.

而且就在您在该领域时，您谈到了产品敏感性测试，因此无论您能分享您实际上是如何做到的，都会很棒。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

So we do with all of the employees, we've done a paid work trial and depends on the role, what it looks like, how long it is and depends on also sometimes on the person.

因此，我们对所有员工进行了带薪工作试用，这取决于角色、它是什么样的、持续多长时间，有时也取决于人。

But basically we do fairly standard interview loops where we test...

但基本上我们会进行相当标准的面试循环来测试......

We have some hiring manager interviews and then skill interviews or tests.

我们有一些招聘经理面试，然后是技能面试或测试。

And then the last step of the process is the work trial.

该过程的最后一步是工作试用。

Karri Saarinen: And basically, they basically come as a mini contractor to the company, and we give them a very usually fairly vague problem statements.

Karri Saarinen：基本上，他们基本上是作为公司的迷你承包商，我们给他们一个通常相当模糊的问题陈述。

If you're an engineer, it's like, hey, there's this feature that needs to be built.

如果您是一名工程师，那么就像，嘿，需要构建这个功能。

How would you build it?

你会如何建造它？

Then go build it.

然后去构建它。

And so basically they need to first understand the problem.

所以基本上他们需要首先了解问题。

Then they need to scope it down to something that they can do in the timeframe that they have.

然后他们需要将其范围缩小到他们可以在规定的时间内完成的事情。

And then they actually go...

然后他们真的走了……

They get the access to a code base.

他们可以访问代码库。

They can actually go and go and build a version of it.

他们实际上可以不断地构建它的一个版本。

And then at the end they can present the work they did.

最后他们可以展示他们所做的工作。

Karri Saarinen: And why we do this is that we just seeing that it's a very good way to see for both of us, both for the company and the candidates to see how we work together.

卡里·沙里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我们这样做的原因是我们发现这是一个非常好的方式，可以让我们双方、公司和候选人了解我们如何合作。

And I think for the candidate, what they can see is, what kind of company are you joining, what is it like to work here, and what is ownership or how do I approach this?

我认为对于候选人来说，他们能看到的是，你要加入什么样的公司，在这里工作感觉如何，所有权是什么，或者我该如何处理这个问题？

Karri Saarinen: I think a lot of engineers also like that they see the code base and they're like, oh wow, this is really clean and it's not some kind of spaghetti code type of thing situation.

Karri Saarinen：我认为很多工程师也喜欢看到代码库，他们会说，哇，这真的很干净，而且不是某种意大利面条代码类型的情况。

So I think it helps the candidates as well understand what are they signing off for, which I think can be very risky sometimes.

所以我认为这有助于候选人了解他们签署的目的是什么，我认为这有时可能非常危险。

Especially with startups, it's really hard to tell how the startup is operating just from the interviews.

尤其是对于初创公司来说，仅仅从采访中很难看出这家初创公司的运营情况。

And in large companies, I think things are more standardized.

而在大公司，我认为事情更加标准化。

So I think they're more similar and it's easier to make that choice.

所以我认为它们更相似并且更容易做出选择。

But with startups, it can be very different how companies operate.

但对于初创公司来说，公司的运作方式可能会非常不同。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

That is so unique and I rarely hear of a company being able to hire that way.

这是非常独特的，我很少听说有公司能够以这种方式招聘。

I imagine one of the reasons you can get away with that where people don't have a full-time job for a while, while we're doing a paid trial is because Linear is such an enticing place to work.

我想，当人们在一段时间内没有全职工作而我们正在进行带薪试用时，你可以摆脱这种情况的原因之一是因为 Linear 是一个非常有吸引力的工作场所。

I imagine for a lot of companies they can't really do that.

我想对于很多公司来说他们无法真正做到这一点。

But I guess any thoughts on just maybe more companies can actually pull this off?

但我想是否有更多的公司可以真正实现这一目标？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I think it's always like if you don't ask, you don't know.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，我认为如果你不问，你就不会知道。

I think in our case that's just been the standard and we try to work with the candidate.

我认为在我们的案例中，这只是标准，我们尝试与候选人合作。

Let's figure out maybe we do it on the weekend or maybe we do it some other vacation holiday or something.

让我们想想也许我们可以在周末进行，或者可以在其他假期或其他时间进行。

So there can be ways we can schedule it so that it causes as little kind of problems to the candidate as possible.

因此，我们可以采取一些方法来安排它，以便尽可能少地给候选人带来问题。

Karri Saarinen: And I think we only had only a few people probably have ever declined it.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为我们可能只有少数人拒绝过它。

It's not like I think everyone else has been, at least after the fact, they've been happy that they did it because they felt like they had a much better sense of the company they're joining.

我认为其他人并不是这样，至少在事后，他们很高兴自己这么做了，因为他们觉得自己对所加入的公司有了更好的认识。

And then also during that workshop, they can actually join our meetings, they get access to our Slack and Notion, and they also have one-on-one chats with some of the other people on the team.

然后在研讨会期间，他们实际上可以参加我们的会议，他们可以访问我们的 Slack 和 Notion，他们还可以与团队中的其他一些人进行一对一的聊天。

Karri Saarinen: So they already get to know people.

卡里·沙里宁：所以他们已经认识了人。

So it's a good way for them to evaluate us as well.

所以这也是他们评估我们的好方法。

And then for us, it's obviously we can see...

然后对于我们来说，显然我们可以看到......

What is important for us to see is how does this person operate in this kind of environment and how do they approach problems?

我们重要的是看这个人在这样的环境下是如何运作的，如何处理问题的？

How do they think and are they able to make progress in a very short timeframe, which I always think it's very important for startups.

他们是如何思考的，是否能够在很短的时间内取得进展，我一直认为这对于初创公司来说非常重要。

In large companies, you have maybe all the time in the world to do stuff.

在大公司里，你可能有足够的时间来做事。

But I think any kind of startup, even with us when we take our time doing things sometimes, it's still important.

但我认为任何类型的创业公司，即使我们有时花时间做事，它仍然很重要。

We can do things quickly if we have to.

如果有必要的话，我们可以快速做事。

Lenny: Super cool.

莱尼：超级酷。

Just to close the thread on product sensibility, is there anything you could share of just how you actually help understand someone's strength and ability there?

最后，为了结束关于产品敏感性的话题，您是否可以分享一下您如何真正帮助了解某人的优势和能力？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I wouldn't say we have some kind of very scientific or some special way figure it out for this.

我不会说我们有某种非常科学或特殊的方法来解决这个问题。

So I think a lot of it, it's like a discussion of...

所以我想了很多，就像讨论......

And I often think ask people that...

我经常想问人们...

Ask about their projects and I try to go deeper.

询问他们的项目，我尝试更深入地了解。

It's like why was this decision made?

就像为什么做出这个决定？

Why do you think the decision was made?

您认为为什么做出这个决定？

And I might ask, "Do you think it was the right decision or did you agree on it?" Or ask about what you think you would have done differently or something.

我可能会问：“你认为这是正确的决定还是你同意这个决定？”或者询问你认为你会采取什么不同的做法或其他什么。

Karri Saarinen: So I think it's more like I'm trying to...

卡里·沙里宁：所以我认为这更像是我试图......

In this area and what their answers is.

在这个领域，他们的答案是什么。

And people's answers can be very different levels.

人们的答案可能有很大不同的水平。

Some people might be, "Yeah, I didn't like it.

有些人可能会说：“是的，我不喜欢它。

Which yeah, it's not opinion, but it's not based on anything.

是的，这不是意见，但它没有任何依据。

It's just like you didn't like it.

就好像你不喜欢它一样。

You should be able to expand on it saying well, I don't like it because in this case it would not work well for this kind of users or in this kind of context or for this kind of purposes.

您应该能够扩展它，说好，我不喜欢它，因为在这种情况下，它对于此类用户或在此类上下文中或用于此类目的不能很好地工作。

Karri Saarinen: So they have more of this reasoning or some kind of rational why they think this way and they can articulate that.

卡里·沙里宁：所以他们有更多这样的推理或某种理性，为什么他们会这样想，并且他们可以清楚地表达出来。

So I think that's what we often testing for is can they do this and how well they can do it.

所以我认为我们经常测试的是他们能否做到这一点以及他们能做得如何。

Then there can be very wide ranges of how people do it.

那么人们的做法可能会有非常广泛的范围。

And when you see someone who really thinks about this stuff, it's very clear to see that they can just talk about it forever and they can go deeper and deeper.

当你看到有人真正思考这个问题时，你会很清楚地看到他们可以永远谈论它，并且可以越来越深入。

And then some people that maybe haven't had the experience or don't think this way, they're like, yeah, I don't really know.

然后有些人可能没有经验或不这么想，他们会说，是的，我真的不知道。

I just built it and then seemed fine.

我刚刚建造了它，然后看起来还不错。

Lenny: Let's transition to the third area I wanted to spend some time on, which is growth.

莱尼：让我们过渡到我想花一些时间的第三个领域，那就是增长。

And basically I'd love to just understand how Linear grows and what you figured out around growth, especially in B2B SaaS.

基本上，我很想了解 Linear 如何增长以及您对增长的理解，尤其是在 B2B SaaS 领域。

Lenny: So our first question here is just how long did it take from starting to work on Linear to launching, say, V1, something that a number of people can use?

Lenny：所以我们的第一个问题是，从开始开发 Linear 到推出 V1（比如很多人都可以使用的东西）花了多长时间？

Karri Saarinen: So we started officially in 2019.

Karri Saarinen：所以我们在 2019 年正式开始。

Some, I think, months before that we were already exploring and prototyping the product.

我想，几个月前我们就已经在探索和制作产品原型了。

So I think we prototyped different kinds of designs a little bit.

所以我认为我们对不同类型的设计进行了一些原型设计。

Karri Saarinen: And then we also, one of the things we really wanted to solve is we wanted to make the application really fast.

Karri Saarinen：然后我们真正想要解决的事情之一就是我们想让应用程序变得非常快。

And the way we figured out we do that is we have more of this local-based data structure where all the data lives in the client, and then it gets synced on the backends with this delta .

我们发现这样做的方式是我们拥有更多这种基于本地的数据结构，其中所有数据都位于客户端中，然后它在后端与此 delta 同步。

Karri Saarinen: And back then, we were just exploring different off-the-shelf solutions and systems, but there was nothing really there, so we ended up building our own.

Karri Saarinen：当时，我们只是在探索不同的现成解决方案和系统，但实际上什么都没有，所以我们最终建立了自己的解决方案和系统。

And so we spent some time prototyping that.

所以我们花了一些时间来制作原型。

And then once we officially, I think, started working on the company in April 2019, and then we announced the company roughly mid-April, and we had this little website up with the wait list.

然后，我认为，我们在 2019 年 4 月正式开始为该公司工作，然后我们大约在 4 月中旬宣布了该公司的成立，并且我们建立了一个带有等待名单的小网站。

And then I think by May we could use it ourselves.

然后我想到五月我们就可以自己使用它了。

And then we started inviting some friends to try it out.

然后我们开始邀请一些朋友来尝试一下。

Karri Saarinen: But then I think in June, I think we started more inviting people from the wait list.

卡里·沙里宁：但我想从六月开始，我们开始更多地邀请等待名单上的人。

And around June, July, I think we had about, I don't know, 100, 200 users on it and maybe about 10 companies or something.

大约在 6 月、7 月，我想我们大约有 100、200 个用户，也许还有 10 家公司之类的，我不知道。

And then we were in this private beta stage for almost a year.

然后我们处于内测阶段将近一年。

And the way we did it was just like we had this wait list of people on the wait list.

我们这样做的方式就像我们在等待名单上有这样的人的等待名单一样。

There was few survey questions, like what kind of tools you use today and then why do you want to use Linear and what's the company size?

调查问题很少，比如您今天使用什么类型的工具，为什么要使用 Linear，公司规模有多大？

Karri Saarinen: And we invited people based on...

卡里·沙里宁：我们邀请人们是基于……

We invited more smaller companies using the tools we currently supported.

我们邀请更多的小公司使用我们目前支持的工具。

And then also I was trying to see who is more interested versus just, I don't know, I just want to try it out type of people.

然后我也试图看看谁更感兴趣，而不是只是，我不知道，我只是想尝试一下类型的人。

And then a year later, in June, we launched it publicly.

一年后，即六月，我们公开推出了它。

And back then maybe we already had, I don't know, several hundred of companies using it.

那时，我不知道，也许我们已经有数百家公司在使用它。

And then we also launched the pricing and I think almost all of them...

然后我们还推出了定价，我想几乎所有的......

Maybe one company didn't subscribe, but everyone else subscribed to that paid plan.

也许有一家公司没有订阅，但其他所有人都订阅了该付费计划。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

There's a number of really interesting things here.

这里有很多非常有趣的事情。

So one is you're in private beta for a year and then a year later, you launched.

所以一个是你进行了一年的私人测试，然后一年后，你推出了。

How long was that period between starting to incubate and starting to build to that private beta milestone?

从开始孵化到开始构建内测里程碑，这段时间需要多长时间？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I think it's just a few months.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，我想这只是几个月的时间。

I think just-

我认为只是——

Lenny: Just a few months of building the V1?

Lenny：仅仅几个月的时间就构建了 V1？

Lenny: Wow, okay.

莱尼：哇，好吧。

I thought it was a lot longer.

我以为还长很多。

That is so interesting.

那太有趣了。

Okay.

好的。

What a team you've got over there.

你们那边的团队多棒啊。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

And then this survey piece is really interesting.

然后这篇调查文章真的很有趣。

I've heard a little bit about this story.

我听说过这个故事。

So essentially you launched it on Twitter.

所以本质上你是在 Twitter 上发布的。

You had kind of a following.

你有一些追随者。

Your founders had a bit of a following, so I think that helped build up the initial wait list.

你们的创始人有一些追随者，所以我认为这有助于建立最初的等待名单。

Lenny: But what you did there wasn't just like, hey, go sign up for a wait list and you just add email addresses.

莱尼：但是你在那里所做的不仅仅是，嘿，去注册等候名单，然后你只需添加电子邮件地址。

It's a survey asking them what tools they use, whether it's GitHub or something else, and then also the size of the company and their interest.

这是一项调查，询问他们使用什么工具，是 GitHub 还是其他工具，还有公司的规模和他们的兴趣。

And that helped you basically prioritize who to go after and who to onboard.

这基本上可以帮助你优先考虑要追随的人以及加入的人。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

And the reason we did it, because we know that we didn't support everything and what I said before and the focus is we want to also be focused on let's just build a version that can work for some people or some companies.

我们这样做的原因是因为我们知道我们并不支持所有内容以及我之前所说的，重点是我们也希望专注于让我们构建一个可以为某些人或某些公司工作的版本。

We don't have to try to address everyone in the world in the first months of the business.

我们不必在业务的最初几个月就试图向世界上的每个人提供服务。

And even before, after that.

甚至在那之前，之后。

So it was very selective process.

所以这是一个非常有选择性的过程。

And I think we were fortunate that we were able to get people sign up on a wait list and I think after a month or so we had maybe 4,000 people on the wait list.

我认为我们很幸运，我们能够让人们在候补名单上注册，我想大约一个月后，候补名单上可能有 4,000 人。

Karri Saarinen: And then we had this internal...

卡里·沙里宁：然后我们有这个内部......

I think initially it was just a very manual process, but eventually we built this invite tool that we could just send invites.

我认为最初这只是一个非常手动的过程，但最终我们构建了这个邀请工具，我们可以只发送邀请。

But in the beginning, I would go read the actual surveys in a spreadsheet, then I copied the email, and then I emailed them the invite link from my personal email.

但一开始，我会去阅读电子表格中的实际调查，然后复制电子邮件，然后通过电子邮件将我的个人电子邮件中的邀请链接发送给他们。

And then I would just email them after a few days or a week and it's like, "Hey, what do you think?"

然后我会在几天或一周后给他们发电子邮件，就像，“嘿，你觉得怎么样？”

Karri Saarinen: And the reason we...

卡里·沙里宁：我们的原因是……

And so we would invite only like...

所以我们只会邀请...

In the beginning, we maybe invited like 10 people a week.

一开始，我们每周可能会邀请 10 个人。

And eventually we increased those amounts.

最终我们增加了这些金额。

But the reason we did it that way was that we thought that if you just invite everyone at once or a lot of people at once, all of those people are going to probably hit the same problems in this kind of software that is very early stage.

但我们这样做的原因是，我们认为如果你一次邀请所有人或一次邀请很多人，那么所有这些人都可能会在这种处于早期阶段的软件中遇到同样的问题。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

They hit the same bug or the same problem in the software.

他们在软件中遇到了相同的错误或相同的问题。

So then they will all send us feedback like, hey, there's this problem.

然后他们都会向我们发送反馈，比如，嘿，有这个问题。

And then we felt like it was a wasted effort.

然后我们觉得这是白费力气。

Karri Saarinen: So we would just do these cohorts.

Karri Saarinen：所以我们只会做这些队列。

Let's invite these people and then they say, hey, this is a problem.

让我们邀请这些人，然后他们说，嘿，这是一个问题。

This doesn't work, or something.

这不起作用，或者什么的。

Then we go fix that.

然后我们去解决这个问题。

Then after we fix that, we invite the next cohort of people.

解决这个问题后，我们会邀请下一批人。

Then they say, well, there's this thing that is needed or this doesn't work, then we fix that.

然后他们说，好吧，需要这个东西，或者这个东西不起作用，然后我们解决这个问题。

Karri Saarinen: So for that year, we did these cohorts and then always get the feedback from the cohort saying this is wrong or this doesn't work, and then we'll fix that.

Karri Saarinen：那一年，我们做了这些队列，然后总是从队列中得到反馈，说这是错误的或这不起作用，然后我们会解决这个问题。

So eventually, I think it was much more...

所以最终，我认为这更多......

I think an effective way of doing the initial development than just inviting or letting everyone to use the product right at the beginning.

我认为进行初始开发的有效方法不仅仅是在一开始就邀请或让每个人使用该产品。

Lenny: There's so many interesting lessons from this.

莱尼：从中我们可以学到很多有趣的教训。

I wanted to ask how you got your first 10 customers.

我想问一下你们是如何获得前 10 个客户的。

And what I'm hearing essentially was from this wait list, you launched it on Twitter, people signed up, you picked people to let onboard, you worked with them over the course of a year to make it what they needed, and then eventually you started charging.

我听到的基本上是从这个等候名单中听到的，你在 Twitter 上推出了它，人们注册了，你选择了让他们加入的人，你与他们一起工作了一年，以满足他们的需要，然后最终你开始收费。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I think the first 10 companies using it, I think maybe a little over half.

我认为前 10 家使用它的公司可能超过一半。

Maybe there was three friends that have startups and they used it.

也许有三个朋友拥有初创公司并且他们使用了它。

And then I think the majority of them were just from this wait list.

然后我认为他们中的大多数人都来自这个等待名单。

But they didn't pay us anything.

但他们没有付给我们任何钱。

We didn't have pricing in the beginning or during the private beta.

我们在开始或私人测试期间没有定价。

At some point we started building the payments function, so we just added a page in the settings that you can optionally pay.

在某个时候，我们开始构建支付功能，因此我们只是在设置中添加了一个页面，您可以选择支付。

Karri Saarinen: The page in the settings that you can optionally pay and then we just give you a slider that's, how much do you want to pay per seat?

Karri Saarinen：在设置页面中，您可以选择付费，然后我们会给您一个滑块，即您想为每个座位支付多少钱？

Then we just see if...

然后我们看看是否...

I know some people paid $28 per seat and some people pay $1, but it doesn't matter, we just wanted to test the functionality and see what people think.

我知道有些人支付每个席位 28 美元，有些人支付 1 美元，但这并不重要，我们只是想测试功能并看看人们的想法。

After a year, when we launched, we already had...

一年后，当我们推出时，我们已经......

In the, I don't know, first week of launching, we had probably some hundreds of customers.

我不知道，在推出的第一周，我们可能有数百名客户。

Lenny: I have never heard of the approach to pricing as just an actual sliding scale where people can slide the scale themselves on how much they want to pay.

莱尼：我从未听说过这种定价方法只是一种实际的浮动比例，人们可以根据自己想要支付的金额自行调整比例。

Did that help you figure out what to charge, or is it mostly just an experiment?

这是否有助于您确定要收费的内容，或者这主要只是一个实验？

Karri Saarinen: I don't think it gave enough data to decide, but I think it was good to see that there was some people that went...

卡里·萨里宁：我认为它没有提供足够的数据来做出决定，但我认为很高兴看到有些人去了......

I think that 20 was probably the maximum that people could pay, so I think there was some people that went to it and they felt like, "Actually, yeah, I really love the products.

我认为 20 可能是人们可以支付的最高限额，所以我认为有些人去了，他们觉得，“实际上，是的，我真的很喜欢这些产品。

I'm happy to pay $20." I think at least it gave us some confidence that, if we charge for this and it's something under $20, there's going to be market for it.

我很乐意支付 20 美元。”我认为这至少给了我们一些信心，如果我们对此收费并且价格低于 20 美元，那么它就会有市场。

Lenny: I want to hear about the story of how you've started to feel product market fit, whatever that means to you.

莱尼：我想听听您如何开始感受到产品市场契合度的故事，无论这对您意味着什么。

When did you start to feel like, "Wow, this is actually going to work and maybe this is going to be a real business"?

你什么时候开始觉得，“哇，这真的行得通，也许这会成为一门真正的生意”？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I think we've always been, I don't know, some paranoid or...

卡里·沙里宁：是的，我认为我们一直是，我不知道，有些偏执或......

I guess maybe a paranoid is a good way about the product market fit.

我想也许偏执是了解产品市场契合度的好方法。

I think it's paranoid in a way, we are always wondering, "Do we really have it?" And, "With who do we have it?" I think it's true in our business, that...

我认为这在某种程度上是偏执的，我们总是想知道，“我们真的拥有它吗？”并且，“我们和谁一起拥有它？”我认为在我们的行业中确实如此，...

I think we started feeling it very early on, and when people first started using it and we could see, "Now the whole company is using it and they seem happier using it and the feedback is good and they might have some additional asks for us," but we started feeling like there was definitely a product market fit with certain customer and these were more smaller, early-stage companies maybe where the founder is still running the product and they care about the speed of the shipping or they have certain values in a way, so it was a good fit with them.

我想我们很早就开始感觉到这一点，当人们第一次开始使用它时，我们可以看到，“现在整个公司都在使用它，他们似乎更乐意使用它，反馈很好，他们可能会对我们提出一些额外的要求，”但我们开始感觉肯定有一个适合某些客户的产品市场，这些是更小的、早期的公司，可能创始人仍在运行产品，他们关心运输速度，或者在某种程度上有某些价值观，所以它很适合他们。

Karri Saarinen: Then I think we always know that we want to address the whole market and also just these early-stage customers, but we knew that if a Fortune 500 company came to us then, or even today, we might not be...

Karri Saarinen：那么我认为我们一直都知道我们想要满足整个市场以及这些早期客户的需求，但我们知道如果当时甚至今天有一家财富 500 强公司来找我们，我们可能不会......

I don't think we can provide them the solution today that works for them, so I don't think the fit is there.

我认为我们今天无法为他们提供适合他们的解决方案，所以我认为不合适。

For us, the way we think about is, "Do we have the fit in the specific segments?" And how strong that fit is.

对于我们来说，我们思考的方式是“我们是否适合特定的细分市场？”以及这种契合度有多强。

In the company's journey, the first year, we just focused on, "Can we get the fit..." In the first two years, we focused on, "Can we get the fit in the early stage startup segment?" Basically, the goal was, "We want to be the default for startups, the default tool that the startups pick, and I think we were able to accomplish that, but we just purely focused on that segment and getting the product market fit there.

在公司的发展历程中，第一年，我们只关注“我们能否适应……”在前两年，我们关注的是“我们能否在早期创业阶段适应？”基本上，目标是，“我们希望成为初创公司的默认工具，初创公司选择的默认工具，我认为我们能够实现这一目标，但我们只是纯粹专注于该细分市场并让产品市场适应那里。

Karri Saarinen: At the same time, we started getting some larger companies and we saw, "Yeah, it's not really great for you right now, but let's work on it, making it better," so I think the last two years we've been focusing on that.

卡里·萨里宁：与此同时，我们开始收购一些更大的公司，我们看到，“是的，现在对你来说并不是很好，但让我们努力，让它变得更好，”所以我认为过去两年我们一直专注于这一点。

It's like, "How do we make the software work better?

就像，“我们如何让软件更好地工作？

How do we get the product market fit stronger in this larger company segments that are hundreds of people or 1000 people?"

我们如何让产品市场更适应这个数百人或 1000 人的大型公司细分市场？”

Lenny: I think this is such a good way and smart way of thinking about product market fit.

莱尼：我认为这是思考产品市场契合度的好方法和聪明方法。

A lot of people see product market fit as this binary, "I have it or I don't," and, "When am I going to really feel product market fit?" What you're describing is what I often hear, it's more of this spectrum of more and more confidence that there's product market fit and, even more specifically, it's product market fit with segments of the market.

很多人将产品市场契合度视为二元关系，“我有它或我没有”，以及“我什么时候才能真正感受到产品市场契合度？”你所描述的是我经常听到的，更多的是对产品市场契合度越来越有信心，更具体地说，是产品市场与细分市场的契合度。

It's this map of the world and you're just slowly acquiring territory in the market with specific elements and then, over time, it grows and grows.

这是一张世界地图，你只是慢慢地在市场上获得具有特定元素的领土，然后，随着时间的推移，它会不断扩大。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I think a spectrum is a good way to think about it, too.

卡里·沙里宁：是的，我认为频谱也是思考这个问题的好方法。

I feel like there's this blog post written in the past where you know when you have product market fit and I think it probably...

我觉得过去写过一篇博客文章，你知道什么时候你的产品适合市场，我认为它可能......

It's like that for some, I don't know, social consumer apps.

对于一些我不知道的社交消费者应用程序来说就是这样。

If it's taking off or not, then you don't really have a lot of different segments, or you don't really think about it, you have millions of users and then you see it's taking off, so you have a product market fit.

如果它是否正在起飞，那么你实际上并没有很多不同的细分市场，或者你没有真正考虑它，你有数百万用户，然后你看到它正在起飞，所以你有一个适合市场的产品。

I think in more like a B2B world.

我认为更像是 B2B 世界。

I think there's always...

我想总有...

You can have different sizes of customers, you can have different domains the customers are in, or there's different categories where you might be doing really well in one category and then not that well another.

您可以拥有不同规模的客户，可以拥有客户所在的不同领域，或者可以有不同的类别，您可能在一个类别中做得很好，但在另一个类别中却表现不佳。

Karri Saarinen: I think maybe the countering to do things is that, actually, if you're doing really well in some category, just double down on that.

卡里·萨里宁（Karri Saarinen）：我认为，也许做事的反面因素是，实际上，如果你在某个类别中做得非常好，那就加倍努力。

This is something I talked to the Zoom founder, Eric, at some point in the company's lifecycle, and this is also what he said.

这是我在公司生命周期的某个时刻与 Zoom 创始人 Eric 谈论过的事情，他也是这么说的。

When they were building Zoom in the early days, they would get this one type of customer.

当他们早期建立 Zoom 时，他们会得到这一类客户。

I don't know, maybe it's a university and then it worked really well for them.

我不知道，也许这是一所大学，然后它对他们来说非常有效。

Then they're like, "How do we get more of the universities?" They would always focus on a certain customer rather than, "Let's just try to get everyone, so let's focus on everything," which is not possible.

然后他们会问，“我们如何获得更多的大学机会？”他们总是专注于某个客户，而不是“让我们尝试吸引所有人，所以让我们专注于一切”，这是不可能的。

Again, it's about the focus.

再次，这是关于焦点。

If you see that something is working really well, then it's almost like you should focus on doing that more until you hit some point.

如果你发现某件事运行得非常好，那么你几乎应该集中精力做更多的事情，直到达到某个点。

It's like, "Okay, now we do have that category captured or handled as much as we want," and we should expand to new area.

就像，“好吧，现在我们确实已经按照我们想要的方式捕获或处理了该类别”，我们应该扩展到新的领域。

Lenny: Essentially, look for pull and just follow that and pay attention to that.

莱尼：本质上，寻找拉力，然后遵循它并注意它。

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I think, for us, there can be sometimes...

我想，对于我们来说，有时可能...

For example, now we have...

例如，现在我们有...

Most of the AI companies are using us, so I think it's always...

大多数人工智能公司都在使用我们，所以我认为它总是......

Before that, it was a crypto company, so I think there's...

在此之前，它是一家加密公司，所以我认为......

When we see these kinds of things happening, then we start to think like, "Could we do something differently or could we get more of these AI companies on board?"

当我们看到这类事情发生时，我们就会开始思考，“我们是否可以做一些不同的事情，或者我们可以让更多的人工智能公司加入进来吗？”

Lenny: Such a great lesson.

莱尼：真是一个很棒的教训。

Just a few more questions, you mentioned that you launched on Twitter and that led to a large wait list and a growing wait list.

还有几个问题，您提到您在 Twitter 上推出了这一服务，这导致了一个庞大的等待名单，而且等待名单还在不断增加。

Is there anything you did before that to build this following?

在此之前您是否做过任何事情来建立以下内容？

That sounds really amazing, "Cool, we just announced it on Twitter and we have this large wait list and then we grow and we get all these customers." Is there anything you did ahead of time in anticipation of this launch?

这听起来真的很神奇，“酷，我们刚刚在 Twitter 上宣布了这一消息，我们有一个很大的等待名单，然后我们不断成长，我们得到了所有这些客户。”为了这次发布，您提前做了什么准备吗？

Would you recommend people work on building some kind of following online before they work in a startup?

您是否会建议人们在加入初创公司之前先在网上建立某种追随者？

Was it just like, "Hey, we happen to have this following," and it worked out?

是不是就像“嘿，我们碰巧有这样的追随者”，然后就成功了？

Anything along those lines you would recommend to founders these days?

最近您会向创始人推荐什么类似的东西吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I think definitely if you have a following and, obviously, depends on what kind of following, but I think my background as a designer, I would say at Airbnb and Coinbase and other places, and I did some talks in conferences and write some blog posts.

我认为，如果你有追随者，显然，这取决于什么样的追随者，但我认为我作为设计师的背景，我会说在 Airbnb 和 Coinbase 等地方，我在会议上做了一些演讲并写了一些博客文章。

I was definitely out there and had some of that following, which was helpful, but it wasn't like I have hundreds of thousands of followers or millions, or something.

我肯定在那里并且有一些追随者，这很有帮助，但我并没有拥有数十万或数百万追随者或其他什么。

I had maybe 10,000 or something, which is a significant number, but then I think the other thing is...

我可能有 10,000 左右，这是一个很大的数字，但我认为另一件事是......

I think with the announcement, one of the things we did, I think, well is I think sometimes startups do try to emulate successful, large companies too much and you do this fancy announcements where it's like, "Hey, now we are doing this fancy thing and it sounds very corporate or something."

我认为，在宣布这一消息时，我们所做的事情之一是，我认为有时初创公司确实会过度模仿成功的大公司，而你会发布一些奇特的公告，就像是，“嘿，现在我们正在做一件奇特的事情，听起来非常有企业精神之类的。”

Karri Saarinen: With our announcement, we wrote it more direct or authentic to us like, "This is what we're going to do and this is why, and these are some of the things we're going to do." On a Twitter, we did the same thing.

卡里·萨里宁：在我们宣布这一消息时，我们写得更直接或更真实，比如“这就是我们要做的事情，这就是原因，这些是我们要做的一些事情。”在推特上，我们做了同样的事情。

All of us founders, we wrote our own reasons why we're doing this, and I think it was just much more...

我们所有的创始人，我们都写下了我们这样做的原因，我认为这不仅仅是……

I think people like us could resonate more with it, so we were writing to the right audience.

我认为像我们这样的人可能会产生更多共鸣，所以我们写给正确的读者。

I think that's probably the first thing when you're announcing your company, you think about, "Who is my first audience?

我认为这可能是当你宣布你的公司时，你会想到的第一件事，“谁是我的第一批受众？

Who would be the best early users for this product and where are they?" And then, "How do they think about things and what kind of language do they use?" For us, it came very naturally, because we are these people.

谁会是该产品的最佳早期用户？他们在哪里？”然后，“他们如何思考事物以及他们使用什么样的语言？”对我们来说，这是很自然的，因为我们就是这些人。

Karri Saarinen: We are in building software and these companies, and other people have seen similar things we have seen, so I think the way we announced it resonated with a lot of people.

Karri Saarinen：我们正在构建软件和这些公司，其他人也看到了我们所看到的类似的事情，所以我认为我们宣布它的方式引起了很多人的共鸣。

Then I think we did have some friends...

然后我想我们确实有一些朋友......

I said we got some angel round where we got some friends involved.

我说我们有一些天使轮，我们有一些朋友参与其中。

The main reason we did it was that we just felt like, in the early days, it's good to have...

我们这样做的主要原因是，我们只是觉得，在早期，有......

You feel like a real company in a way, that you have someone to answer for in a way.

在某种程度上，你感觉自己像一家真正的公司，有人可以在某种程度上为你负责。

Even though the investors normally run your company or they don't have that much power, it's more like, "I took someone's money so I now need to make it worth it," kind of.

尽管投资者通常经营你的公司，或者他们没有那么大的权力，但这更像是，“我拿了别人的钱，所以我现在需要让它变得值得”。

With the announcement, again, we could use some of those people to spread the message as well.

随着这一消息的发布，我们也可以利用其中一些人来传播信息。

Lenny: To close out our conversation, just a couple more broad questions.

莱尼：为了结束我们的谈话，我想问几个更广泛的问题。

You have a pretty unique culture at Linear, and I know one fun thing that you do is you have this baking competition.

Linear 有着非常独特的文化，我知道你们做的一件有趣的事情就是举办烘焙比赛。

Can you talk about that and what it is you do there?

您能谈谈那件事以及您在那里做什么吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

Since we are a fully remote and distributed company, so we have people in Europe and US, a lot of group gatherings are challenging.

由于我们是一家完全远程和分布式的公司，因此我们在欧洲和美国都有员工，因此很多团体聚会都具有挑战性。

Remote group sessions are challenging, because the time zones are so different, so some of the basic things, like happy hours, don't really work that well.

远程小组会议具有挑战性，因为时区差异很大，因此一些基本的事情（例如欢乐时光）并不能很好地发挥作用。

Also, Zoom happy hours is probably not that fun anyway.

而且，Zoom 的欢乐时光可能也不是那么有趣。

I think a lot of people in the company watch The Great British Baking Show, so we decided, "Maybe we do something like that," where basically, we would just pick a recipe.

我认为公司里很多人都观看英国烘焙秀，所以我们决定，“也许我们会做类似的事情”，基本上，我们只会选择一个食谱。

Firstly, it was baking, now we expanded to cooking recipes, too.

首先是烘焙，现在我们也扩展到烹饪食谱。

We just pick a recipe that is somewhat reasonable to do in a few hours, in a couple of hours, and it doesn't require tons of equipment or skill, or something.

我们只是选择一个在几个小时内完成的合理食谱，并且不需要大量的设备或技能或其他东西。

Then we just tell people, "Go buy the ingredients, use the company card," everyone has a company card, "And then hop on Zoom on this day."

然后我们就告诉人们，“去买原料，用公司卡，”每个人都有一张公司卡，“然后在这一天跳上Zoom。”

Karri Saarinen: For me, since I'm in California, it's like 8:00 AM, so we started the baking or cooking then.

Karri Saarinen：对我来说，因为我在加利福尼亚州，大概是上午 8:00，所以我们就开始烘焙或烹饪。

We've made things like roll cake and lemon meringue pie, and we made some [Portuguese 01:26:35], which is Portuguese pastry.

我们做了蛋糕卷和柠檬酥皮派之类的东西，我们还做了一些[葡萄牙语 01:26:35]，这是葡萄牙糕点。

Then we just hop on the Zoom, everyone's doing their thing, following the recipe, and then sometimes people have questions like, "Hey," I don't know, "I'm stuck with this," or, "My dough looks weird, does your dough look like this?" People can help each other and then also chitchat about whatever random things at the same time.

然后我们就跳上 Zoom，每个人都在做自己的事情，遵循食谱，然后有时人们会提出这样的问题，“嘿，”我不知道，“我坚持这个，”或者，“我的面团看起来很奇怪，你的面团看起来像这样吗？”人们可以互相帮助，同时也可以闲聊一些随机的事情。

Then we do the thing and then everyone takes pictures and posts on the Slack channel, it's what they achieved.

然后我们做这件事，然后每个人都拍照并在 Slack 频道上发帖，这就是他们所取得的成果。

I think we have friendly competitions like who did it best, so people sometimes put a lot of effort into the decorations and visuals.

我认为我们有友好的竞赛，比如谁做得最好，所以人们有时会在装饰和视觉效果上投入很多精力。

Karri Saarinen: In a way, it's, again, a craft thing that we do.

Karri Saarinen：在某种程度上，这又是我们所做的一件工艺品。

I think baking and cooking and these kinds of things are also a craft, so we liked it that way.

我认为烘焙和烹饪之类的事情也是一门手艺，所以我们喜欢这样。

Yeah, we've been basically doing it quarterly since the beginning of the company.

是的，自公司成立以来我们基本上每季度都会这样做。

Yeah, the latest thing, we were a little bit...

是的，最近的事情，我们有点......

I think didn't have that much time, because we decided to do an easier thing, which is a summer drink recipe, so I think people made matcha drinks and some coconut drinks or white iced tea, or something.

我认为没有那么多时间，因为我们决定做一件更简单的事情，这是夏季饮料配方，所以我认为人们制作了抹茶饮料和一些椰子饮料或白冰茶或其他东西。

Yeah, that was interesting to do.

是的，这很有趣。

Lenny: Have you ever won one of these competitions yourself?

莱尼：你自己赢过这些比赛吗？

Karri Saarinen: I don't know if we declare winners that much, but I do think I do...

卡里·沙里宁：我不知道我们是否宣布了那么多获胜者，但我确实认为我这样做了......

Since I'm a designer, I do have some advantages on the visual presentation, so I think that I generally do well on that.

因为我是一名设计师，所以在视觉呈现上我确实有一些优势，所以我认为我在这方面总体上做得很好。

Obviously, with this remote competition, that's the only thing you can really look for.

显然，在这场远程比赛中，这是您唯一可以真正寻找的东西。

It's not necessarily about the taste or the texture, because you can't really taste it through the Zoom.

这不一定与味道或质地有关，因为你无法通过变焦真正品尝它。

Lenny: Maybe as a last question, just again broadly, you've gone from being an IC designer, manager of designers, to the CEO of very fast-growing company.

Lenny：也许作为最后一个问题，从广义上讲，您已经从一名 IC 设计师、设计师经理，变成了一家快速发展的公司的首席执行官。

What's something that you've learned about leadership over the journey of Linear that maybe you didn't expect?

在 Linear 的发展历程中，您在领导力方面学到了哪些可能是您没有预料到的东西？

Karri Saarinen: For some reason, it was surprising to me, I think, that being a CEO or some of these leadership roles is that you end up doing so many different things.

卡里·沙里宁：出于某种原因，我认为，作为首席执行官或其中一些领导角色，你最终会做这么多不同的事情，这让我感到惊讶。

When I was a designer, even if I would be some high-level designer in some company, you're just mostly focusing on the design and that's your job, but then when you're a CEO, then every week or every day, there's some different thing going on.

当我还是一名设计师时，即使我会成为某家公司的高级设计师，你也只是主要关注设计，那是你的工作，但当你成为首席执行官时，每周或每天都会发生一些不同的事情。

Sometimes there can be problems, but a lot of times, it's like, "Hey, we need to figure out how we're going to do this.

有时可能会出现问题，但很多时候，就像，“嘿，我们需要弄清楚如何做到这一点。

How are we going to do this compensation?" Or, "How are we going to do this marketing plan?" Or, "How are we going to do this offsite thing?" What's definitely challenging for me is handling that different kinds of things that come to you and staying somewhat focused, still, on something.

这个补偿我们要怎么做？”或者，“我们将如何制定这个营销计划？”或者，“我们如何做这个异地事情？”对我来说绝对具有挑战性的是处理发生在你身上的不同类型的事情并保持一定的专注力，静止地，在某件事上。

Karri Saarinen: I think I haven't necessarily fully figured it out, but I also figured it out, that hiring and delegation helps with this, that if you can find other leaders that can take on certain areas, that's helpful.

卡里·沙里宁：我想我还没有完全弄清楚，但我也弄清楚了，招聘和授权有助于解决这个问题，如果你能找到其他可以承担某些领域的领导者，那就很有帮助。

That's the main thing, that it's a very wide range of things that you maybe didn't have experience before, but also, I think it's interesting for me to learn about these things.

这是最重要的，这是一个非常广泛的事情，你以前可能没有经历过，而且，我认为了解这些事情对我来说很有趣。

You learn about the financials and you learn about legal things, and then you start to feel like, "Actually, I know something about this thing," over time.

你了解财务知识，了解法律知识，然后随着时间的推移，你开始感觉“实际上，我对这件事有所了解”。

Lenny: For the actual final question, before we get to very exciting lightning round, what's just the future of Linear?

Lenny：对于真正的最后一个问题，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，Linear 的未来是什么？

What's coming?

即将发生什么？

What's happening in the future?

未来会发生什么？

Anything you can share?

有什么可以分享的吗？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I think there's always things we're working on and improving.

卡里·萨里宁：是的，我认为我们总是在努力和改进一些事情。

One, a newer thing we're working on is this feature called Asks.

一，我们正在开发的一项新功能是“询问”功能。

Basically, what it is is that...

基本上，它是什么...

We see that, in a company, there can be a lot of different people that need to interact with the product team or different people that need to interact with this team, but they're not necessarily in Linear or part of this team.

我们看到，在一个公司中，可能有很多不同的人需要与产品团队交互，或者不同的人需要与这个团队交互，但他们不一定在 Linear 或这个团队的一部分。

We'd be building this an Ask feature, which is an integration to Slack where you can very easily go to a Slack channel and then ask your question.

我们将构建一个“询问”功能，这是与 Slack 的集成，您可以轻松地转到 Slack 频道，然后提出您的问题。

You need something from this team, maybe it's the IT team, that you need a laptop, or maybe it's the infrastructure team and you need something from them, then the team that is handling the request, they can very easily send it to Linear, into this triage that we have, and then they can start doing stuff with it.

你需要这个团队的东西，也许是 IT 团队，你需要一台笔记本电脑，或者可能是基础设施团队，你需要他们的东西，然后处理请求的团队，他们可以很容易地将它发送到 Linear，进入我们拥有的分类，然后他们可以开始用它做事情。

Karri Saarinen: If they have questions or additional questions to the actual person who requested it, we can send those messages back to the person through Slack, so they don't actually have to go to Linear or they don't have to be a Linear user to use it.

Karri Saarinen：如果他们对实际提出请求的人有疑问或其他问题，我们可以通过 Slack 将这些消息发送回该人，这样他们实际上不必访问 Linear，或者他们不必是 Linear 用户即可使用它。

We think this is just a good way for the company, or the whole company, to be more potentially involved in the product operations without having to be a power user of Linear, because not every function really uses it or needs to use it.

我们认为这只是公司或整个公司更有可能参与产品运营的好方法，而不必成为 Linear 的高级用户，因为并不是每个功能都真正使用它或需要使用它。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What a cool peek at something coming out soon, or maybe out by the time this comes out.

看到即将发布的东西，或者可能在它发布时就已经发布了，真是太酷了。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got a bunch of questions for you.

我有很多问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Karri Saarinen: Timeless Way of Building by Christopher Alexander.

卡里·沙里宁：克里斯托弗·亚历山大的永恒建筑方式。

He wasn't really an architect, but he, I think, taught in Berkeley.

他并不是真正的建筑师，但我认为他在伯克利任教。

He has these interesting thoughts about building things and he focuses on buildings and towns and these kinds of spaces, but I think there's a lot of things that are also interesting for building software.

他对构建东西有这些有趣的想法，他专注于建筑物、城镇和这些类型的空间，但我认为有很多东西对于构建软件来说也很有趣。

The other book that I like is the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, because it also talks about the quality of things and I think that's one of the main themes of the book.

我喜欢的另一本书是《禅与摩托车维修艺术》，因为它也谈论事物的质量，我认为这是这本书的主题之一。

The thing is also that quality is so hard to define.

问题还在于质量很难定义。

If you actually start thinking about it, it's like, how do you define it?

如果你真的开始思考它，就会想，你如何定义它？

It's really hard to pin down, but it's like when you try something or see it, then you know if it's quality or not.

这确实很难确定，但就像当你尝试某件事或看到它时，你就知道它的质量是否良好。

Lenny: What are some recent movies or TV shows you've really enjoyed?

莱尼：最近你真正喜欢的电影或电视节目有哪些？

Karri Saarinen: I think that the movie is probably John Wick 4.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为这部电影可能是《疾速追杀 4》。

Obviously, there's no story in that movie, but I think it's very true to its nature, so I like that fact.

显然，那部电影中没有故事，但我认为它非常真实，所以我喜欢这个事实。

Also, recently, I started watching the Silo on Apple TV, and I think I like it.

另外，最近，我开始在 Apple TV 上观看《筒仓》，我想我喜欢它。

It's like a good mystery and then, also, it reminds me of the Fallout games, so I like it that way, too.

这就像一个很好的谜团，而且它让我想起了《辐射》游戏，所以我也喜欢这样。

Lenny: I actually read the Silo books and I was really excited for the show to come out, but I mentioned this on a previous podcast, the show is so little to do with actual books.

莱尼：我实际上读过《筒仓》的书籍，我对这个节目的出版感到非常兴奋，但我在之前的播客中提到过这一点，这个节目与实际的书籍关系不大。

The core ideas are the same, but there's all these stories that they're just making up on the show, so I stopped watching, because that's not what I was hoping for, but-

核心思想是相同的，但是所有这些故事都是他们在节目中编造的，所以我停止观看，因为这不是我所希望的，但是-

Karri Saarinen: Okay, interesting.

卡里·沙里宁：好的，有趣。

Maybe I need to check the books later, once I watch the show.

也许等我看完节目后，我需要查一下书。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Definitely, read the books, but there's three of them and only the first one is actually good.

当然，请阅读书籍，但一共有三本，只有第一本确实不错。

The other ones are not actually very good and I should not have read them, because it just went off the rails a little bit.

其他的实际上并不是很好，我不应该读它们，因为它有点偏离轨道。

Anyway, next question.

无论如何，下一个问题。

What is a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?

当你面试应聘者时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？

Karri Saarinen: I think, usually, I like to ask, what is the candidate most proud of and why?

卡里·沙里宁：我想，通常我喜欢问，候选人最自豪的是什么？为什么？

On their professional life or otherwise, what they're most proud of and why.

在他们的职业生涯或其他方面，他们最自豪的是什么以及为什么。

Then I think we can go deeper on that, but I think it gives you a little bit of indication, what the person values and how they think about things.

然后我认为我们可以更深入地探讨这一点，但我认为它给了你一点指示，即这个人的价值观以及他们如何看待事物。

Also, I think it's always nice that people can share something they think they did really well and we can spend time on it versus just asking something more like negative things.

另外，我认为人们可以分享他们认为自己做得很好的事情总是很好，我们可以花时间在这上面，而不是仅仅问一些更像消极的事情。

Lenny: What are some favorite products you've recently discovered that you really, really like?

莱尼：您最近发现了哪些您非常非常喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Karri Saarinen: I'm not sure if I discovered them recently, but recently in this home office, I've been installing some of these hue lights and I really like them, because throughout the day, I can have more harsh lighting, because I'm in meetings or something, and then in the evening, I can change the temperature.

Karri Saarinen：我不确定我是否最近发现了它们，但最近在这个家庭办公室，我安装了一些色调灯，我真的很喜欢它们，因为一整天，我可以有更刺眼的照明，因为我在开会或做其他事情，然后在晚上，我可以改变温度。

I make it much more red or orange, or something.

我把它弄得更红或橙色，或者其他什么。

I think it's nice that you can transition the space.

我认为你可以转换空间很好。

It's like, "Okay, now I'm working and now I'm doing something else." You can use the lights to indicate that.

就像，“好吧，现在我正在工作，现在我正在做其他事情。”您可以使用灯光来指示这一点。

Lenny: That is so cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

Do you automate the schedule or you manually change the color?

您是自动执行计划还是手动更改颜色？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah, I just manually change it.

Karri Saarinen：是的，我只是手动更改它。

On my home app, I have scenes that...

在我的家庭应用程序上，我有一些场景......

There's the night scene and then there's the day scene, or the morning scene, so I just click that button and then it changes the lights.

有夜间场景，然后有白天场景或早晨场景，所以我只需单击该按钮，然后它就会改变灯光。

Lenny: That is extremely cool, I'm going to try that myself.

莱尼：那太酷了，我要亲自尝试一下。

What is a favorite life motto that you like to repeat yourself or share with people?

您最喜欢重复或与人分享的人生格言是什么？

Something you come back to a lot.

你经常回来的东西。

Karri Saarinen: Go slow to go fast.

卡里·沙里宁：慢一点才能快。

I think, for me, it's about that.

我想，对我来说，就是这样。

Sometimes people have a tendency to rushing into things and especially, I think, in startups, but other places too, you have this like...

有时人们倾向于仓促行事，尤其是在初创公司，但在其他地方也一样，你会遇到这样的情况……

I think urgency is important, but then sometimes you have too much urgency and you are rushing things, and what happens is that you rushed it and now you need to come back to fix it.

我认为紧迫性很重要，但有时候你太紧迫了，你太仓促了，结果就是你匆忙了，现在你需要回来解决它。

I think sometimes I like to think that you should take some time to actually think about it and, "What are you going to do?" And then do it.

我想有时我喜欢认为你应该花一些时间来真正考虑一下，“你要做什么？”然后就去做吧。

In the end, it's going to be faster that way than going back and forth and fixing things.

最终，这样会比来回修复问题更快。

Lenny: What is the most valuable lesson that your mom or your dad taught you?

莱尼：你妈妈或你爸爸教给你的最有价值的一课是什么？

Karri Saarinen: I think it's respecting people and things.

卡里·沙里宁：我认为这是尊重人和事。

I think the people respect is pretty obvious, but I think with the things you have, also, I think you should take good care of them when you use them.

我认为人们的尊重是非常明显的，但我认为对于你所拥有的东西，我认为你在使用它们时应该好好爱护它们。

I don't know, clean them or put them away, and then they're ready for the next time.

我不知道，把它们清理干净或者收起来，然后就可以下次使用了。

I think I like that, though.

不过我想我喜欢这样。

Rather than you treating things like they're trash or not that valuable, you should treat things that they are valuable.

你不应该把东西当作垃圾或不那么有价值的东西来对待，而应该把它们当作有价值的东西来对待。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You were born in Finland, I think you grew up in Finland.

你出生在芬兰，我想你是在芬兰长大的。

What is a Finnish food that people should definitely try to get as soon as they can?

人们绝对应该尽快尝试的芬兰食物是什么？

Karri Saarinen: One is this salmon soup, and it might sound weird, a fish soup, maybe it's not going to be that interesting.

Karri Saarinen：其中一个是鲑鱼汤，听起来可能很奇怪，鱼汤，也许不会那么有趣。

It's a creamy soup, it's on potatoes, carrots, and other things, and it's almost like a little bit of sweet flavor to it.

这是一种奶油汤，里面有土豆、胡萝卜和其他东西，而且几乎有点甜味。

You can make it yourself at home or you can...

可以自己在家做，也可以...

If you go to Finland, there's probably always a few restaurants that offer it.

如果你去芬兰，可能总有几家餐馆提供这种美食。

Lenny: Okay, amazing.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

Is that something we could get here or you have to go to Finland to get it?

这是我们可以在这里得到的东西还是你必须去芬兰才能得到它？

Karri Saarinen: I don't think I've ever seen it here in the US in any restaurant, but it's not very hard to make it yourself.

Karri Saarinen：我想我在美国的任何一家餐馆都没有见过它，但自己做并不难。

You can probably Google a recipe.

你也许可以谷歌一个食谱。

Basically, you just need some salmon, some basic spices and some cream and some fruit, vegetables.

基本上，你只需要一些三文鱼、一些基本香料和一些奶油以及一些水果、蔬菜。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Next episode, we're going to do a cooking show with Karri.

下一集，我们将和卡里一起做烹饪节目。

Karri, thank you so much for being here.

卡里，非常感谢你来到这里。

You're building a very special company in a really unique way, and I think many founders and many product builders can learn a ton from watching you operate in the business that you're building.

你正在以一种非常独特的方式建立一家非常特别的公司，我认为许多创始人和许多产品开发者可以从观察你在你正在建立的业务中的运营中学到很多东西。

Again, thank you so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe ask you some more questions, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系您，或者问您更多问题，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Karri Saarinen: Yeah.

卡里·沙里宁：是的。

I'm on Twitter, my name, Karri Saarinen.

我在推特上，我的名字是卡里·沙里宁。

We also have the Linear account, which I think is interesting.

我们还有线性帐户，我认为这很有趣。

That's just @Linear.

这就是@Linear。

I hope everyone can check out Linear and see if it could work for them in their company, and figure out if there's a pilot.

我希望每个人都可以检查一下 Linear，看看它是否适合他们的公司，并弄清楚是否有一个试点。

I think we are always happy to assist on those things, if you just want to try it out and try it with the team, we can help you to set it up and help you to understand how to use the product.

我认为我们总是很乐意在这些事情上提供帮助，如果您只是想尝试一下并与团队一起尝试，我们可以帮助您进行设置并帮助您了解如何使用该产品。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It's just Linear, the app, right?

这只是 Linear 应用程序，对吗？

Is that the URL?

是那个网址吗？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, easy-peasy.

好吧，简单易行。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Karri, again, thank you so much for being here.

Karri，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。