How To Win Friends & Influence Decisions (Julie Zhuo) | Lenny & Friends Summit 2024

Lenny Rachitsky: We're seeing this kind of flattening of orgs.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们看到了这种组织的扁平化。

Everyone's becoming an IC again.

每个人都再次成为IC。

Julie Zhuo: It used to be, okay, I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs, but now with AI allows me to do many of those jobs myself.

Julie Zhuo：过去，好吧，我没有能力做 10 种不同的工作，但现在有了人工智能，我可以自己做很多这样的工作。

We need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles and call ourselves builders.

我们需要消除这些传统角色的界限，称自己为建设者。

I'd love for us to get to the world where that's the title.

我希望我们能够进入如标题所示的世界。

Lenny Rachitsky: I also just saw a stat Google let go of so many of their middle managers.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还刚刚看到谷歌解雇了很多中层管理人员的统计数据。

Julie Zhuo: Management is still really critical.

卓朱莉：管理还是很关键的。

You have a north star, you have a vision, and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done.

你有一颗北极星，你有一个愿景，你只是想弄清楚如何使用你所拥有的资源来完成这件事。

Used to be people, but now it's basically models and different models have different strengths.

以前是人，现在基本都是模特，不同的模特有不同的优势。

You have to assemble the Avengers so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes.

你必须组建复仇者联盟，这样你才能使用正确的工具来实现正确的目的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you feel is the biggest change in the role in life of a manager these days?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为如今经理角色最大的变化是什么？

Julie Zhuo: It's always been manager's job to manage change.

Julie Zhuo：管理变革一直是经理的工作。

I just think the rate of change is accelerating.

我只是认为变化的速度正在加快。

Today management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible.

今天的管理实际上是关于“坚强而灵活”的理念。

So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree.

所以我对柳树这个比喻思考了很多。

It can survive a lot of storms, disasters, et cetera, but it's also very flexible.

它可以经受住很多风暴、灾难等，但它也非常灵活。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have such an interesting trajectory from being head of design to now being obsessed with data and analytics.

Lenny Rachitsky：从担任设计主管到现在痴迷于数据和分析，您的发展轨迹非常有趣。

Julie Zhuo: You want to diagnose with data and treat with design.

Julie Zhuo：你想用数据诊断，用设计治疗。

Data is not a tool that's going to tell you what you should build.

数据不是一个可以告诉您应该构建什么的工具。

I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point.

实际上，我认为目前许多快速发展的公司都没有很好地使用数据。

Traditionally things just didn't grow that fast.

传统上，事情发展得没那么快。

These companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes, but what always happens is eventually things stop growing.

这些公司完全依靠良好的直觉和良好的氛围来生存，但最终总是会发生事情停止增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Julie Zhuo.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是Julie Zhuo。

Julie was my first ever guest on this podcast, which I recorded over three years ago, so this is a very special conversation as I've shared many times before in other places, Julie's newsletter The Looking Glass was the inspiration for my newsletter and basically led to everything that I do now.

朱莉是我三年多前录制的这个播客的第一位嘉宾，所以这是一次非常特别的对话，因为我之前在其他地方分享过很多次，朱莉的时事通讯《The Looking Glass》是我时事通讯的灵感来源，基本上引导了我现在所做的一切。

If you're not familiar with Julie, she was the longtime head of design for the Facebook app used by over three billion people.

如果您不熟悉 Julie，她曾长期担任 Facebook 应用程序的设计主管，该应用程序拥有超过 30 亿人使用。

She's also the author of the best selling and very important book The Making of a Manager.

她还是最畅销且非常重要的书《经理人的成长》的作者。

And most recently she started her own company, Sundial, which is an AI parent analyst used by companies like OpenAI Gamma and Character.AI.

最近，她创办了自己的公司 Sundial，这是 OpenAI Gamma 和 Character.AI 等公司使用的 AI 母公司分析师。

Julie is one of the most thoughtful and insightful product leaders that I've ever come across and she's also got one of the most interesting perspectives on product building.

朱莉是我遇到过的最有思想、最有洞察力的产品领导者之一，她对产品构建也有最有趣的观点之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Having worked at a mega large corp like Meta as head of design and now as a founder at a tiny startup that's all about using data to help you make decisions, it's really rare for someone to have this spectrum of experiences.

Lenny Rachitsky：我曾在像 Meta 这样的大型公司担任设计主管，现在又在一家小型初创公司担任创始人，这家公司致力于使用数据来帮助你做出决策，拥有如此丰富的经验的人确实很少见。

In our conversation, we talk about how learning to be a great manager directly translates to learning how to use AI tools extremely well, which specific skills will become more valuable in the next couple of years, her most valuable and timeless advice for new managers, why she's not hiring product managers at her startup, her simple heuristic for knowing when to use data and when to use intuition in making decisions.

在我们的对话中，我们讨论了学习如何成为一名优秀的经理如何直接转化为学习如何非常好地使用人工智能工具，哪些特定技能将在未来几年内变得更有价值，她对新经理最有价值和永恒的建议，为什么她不在初创公司雇用产品经理，她关于何时使用数据以及何时使用直觉进行决策的简单启发。

There's something in this episode for everyone.

这一集中对每个人来说都有一些东西。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It helps tremendously.

它有很大帮助。

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 15 incredible products for free for an entire year, including Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Whisperflow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, ChatPRD and Mobbin.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以全年免费获得 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Whisperflow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。

Lenny Rachitsky: Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.

Lenny Rachitsky：前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。

With that, I bring you Julie Zhuo.

接下来，我为您带来朱莉·卓。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury.

本集由 Mercury 为您带来。

I've been banking with Mercury for years and, honestly, I can't imagine banking any other way at this point.

我多年来一直在 Mercury 进行银行业务，老实说，我目前无法想象以任何其他方式进行银行业务。

I switched from Chase and, holy moly, what a difference.

我从大通银行转来的，天哪，有什么不同。

Sending wires, tracking spend, giving people on my team access to move money around, so freaking easy.

发送电汇、跟踪支出、让我的团队成员可以转移资金，如此简单。

Where most traditional banking websites and apps are clunky and hard to use, Mercury is meticulously designed to be an intuitive and simple experience.

大多数传统银行网站和应用程序都笨重且难以使用，而 Mercury 则经过精心设计，提供直观、简单的体验。

And Mercury brings all the ways that you use money into a single product, including credit cards, invoicing, bill pay, reimbursements for your teammates and capital.

Mercury 将您使用金钱的所有方式整合到一个产品中，包括信用卡、发票、账单支付、队友报销和资本。

Whether you're a funded tech startup looking for ways to pay contractors and earn yield on your idle cash, or an agency that needs to invoice customers and keep them current, or an eCommerce brand that needs to stay on top of cash flow and access capital.

无论您是一家资金雄厚的科技初创公司，正在寻求向承包商付款并从闲置现金中赚取收益的方法，还是一家需要向客户开具发票并保持其最新状态的机构，或者是一个需要掌控现金流和获取资本的电子商务品牌。

Mercury can be tailored to help your business perform at its highest level.

Mercury 可以量身定制，帮助您的企业发挥最高水平。

Lenny Rachitsky: See what over 200,000 entrepreneurs love about Mercury.

Lenny Rachitsky：了解超过 200,000 名企业家对 Mercury 的喜爱。

Visit mercury.com to apply online in 10 minutes is a FinTech, not a bank.

访问mercury.com 10分钟在线申请是金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking services provided through Mercury's FDIC-insured partner banks.

通过 Mercury 的 FDIC 承保合作银行提供的银行服务。

For more details, check out the show notes.

欲了解更多详情，请查看演出笔记。

Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.

今天的节目是由 DX 为您带来的，DX 是由领先研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。

To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working, how are they being used, what's actually driving value?

为了在人工智能时代蓬勃发展，组织需要快速适应，但许多组织领导者很难回答紧迫的问题，例如哪些工具正在发挥作用，它们如何使用，什么真正推动了价值？

DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift.

DX 提供领导者应对这一转变所需的数据和见解。

With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having an engineering productivity.

借助 DX，Dropbox、booking.com、Adyen 和 Intercom 等公司可以深入了解 AI 如何为其开发人员提供价值以及 AI 对工程生产力的影响。

To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

要了解更多信息，请访问 DX 网站：getdx.com/lenny。

That's getdx.com/lenny.

那是 getdx.com/lenny。

Julie, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

朱莉，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎回到播客。

Julie Zhuo: Thank you, Lenny.

卓朱莉：谢谢你，莱尼。

I'm so excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

I've been looking forward to this all week.

我整个星期都在期待这件事。

I love your podcast.

我喜欢你的播客。

I love where you've taken it since our very first conversation and I'm super excited to have a fun and engaging chat.

我喜欢你自从我们第一次谈话以来所采取的方式，我非常高兴能够进行一次有趣且引人入胜的聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you believe that first episode, the very first episode of this podcast, was over three years ago at this point?

Lenny Rachitsky：你能相信第一集，这个播客的第一集，已经是三年多前的事了吗？

Holy shit.

天哪。

Julie Zhuo: I'm not sure you had that fire in the background back then.

Julie Zhuo：我不确定你当时是否有那场大火。

Lenny Rachitsky: So funny enough, I don't know how many people have noticed this Easter egg that I've stuck with, in that first studio, I was just watching the episode, I had this funny little mirror.

Lenny Rachitsky：太有趣了，我不知道有多少人注意到我一直坚持的这个复活节彩蛋，在第一个工作室里，我只是在看这一集，我有这个有趣的小镜子。

I don't know if I had in the first episode with a fireplace that was showing up in that mirror because the mirror was showing something stupid.

我不知道第一集中是否有壁炉出现在镜子中，因为镜子显示出一些愚蠢的东西。

And so I've just kind of kept this fireplace across every studio I've moved across in my various places.

所以我在我搬过的各个地方的每个工作室里都保留了这个壁炉。

Julie Zhuo: I even remember we chatted.

Julie Zhuo：我什至记得我们聊过。

Video was kind of a newer thing.

视频是一种较新的事物。

You're like, "We'll record it, but it's really about the audio." And now we moved into the video era.

你会说，“我们会录制它，但这实际上与音频有关。”现在我们进入了视频时代。

Lenny Rachitsky: So as you were saying that, I realized my fire was broken, so I just had to turn that on.

Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所说，我意识到我的火坏了，所以我必须把它打开。

So we just cut a little piece.

所以我们只切一小块。

Yeah, that fire was my little funny strike for myself and I don't think anyone's ever realized this.

是的，那场火灾是我对自己的一次小小的有趣的打击，我认为没有人意识到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the idea.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：就是这个想法。

I was actually just looking at the stats.

其实我只是看统计数据。

So since that first episode, this podcast has done over 20 million downloads.

自第一集以来，该播客的下载量已超过 2000 万次。

It's approaching 30 million downloads.

下载量已接近 3000 万次。

Julie Zhuo: It's really incredible.

卓朱莉：这真是不可思议。

I think it is a testament to just your curiosity and how much you really care about the craft of building great products and sharing that with the world.

我认为这证明了您的好奇心以及您对构建优秀产品并与世界分享的工艺的真正关心。

And I know I listen to your podcast and read your newsletter, my team does.

我知道我听你的播客并阅读你的时事通讯，我的团队也是如此。

We're constantly sharing things from all of the amazing speakers that you've had, so thank you for doing this.

我们不断分享你们所拥有的所有出色演讲者的内容，所以感谢你们这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: My pleasure.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我很荣幸。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

So the reason we are chatting again three years later is you're re-releasing your incredible book, The Making of a Manager.

所以三年后我们再次聊天的原因是你重新出版了你那本令人难以置信的书《经理人的成长》。

I've got it right here.

我这里已经拿到了。

You've sold a bazillion copies.

你已经卖出了无数本。

It's been on every list that I've seen.

我见过的每个清单上都有它。

You're releasing the paperback version, you're adding some chapters.

您将发布平装本，并添加一些章节。

I guess first of all, just how do you feel on reflecting back on the success of this book?

我想首先，您回顾这本书的成功有何感受？

Julie Zhuo: It honestly went beyond my expectations, so I'm super happy with it.

Julie Zhuo：老实说，它超出了我的预期，所以我对此非常满意。

My big motivation to write it was I think largely because I felt if I had to write this thing, I was likely going to become a better manager.

我认为我写这本书的最大动机很大程度上是因为我觉得如果我必须写这篇文章，我可能会成为一名更好的经理。

And that was actually a huge part of it because thinking about and writing something I've been blogging for a long time.

这实际上是其中很大一部分，因为我一直在思考和写一些我在博客上写的东西。

And I know that part of my process is when I really sit down to try and put down everything I feel and write letters to myself, it really helps me.

我知道我的过程的一部分是当我真正坐下来尝试放下我的感受并给自己写信时，这确实对我有帮助。

And so that was honestly a huge motivation.

老实说，这是一个巨大的动力。

I hoped that it would go out there and it would sell some books.

我希望它能出去并能卖掉一些书。

I was thinking about that maybe for people who grew up in companies like mine, like Facebook, high-scale Silicon Valley, it might resonate.

我在想，也许对于那些在像我这样的公司长大的人来说，比如 Facebook，大规模的硅谷，这可能会引起共鸣。

I couldn't have expected that it would have much wider reach than that and that's been really awesome.

我没想到它的影响范围会比这更广泛，这真是太棒了。

Julie Zhuo: And just how many people will tell me things like I thought I was the only one who felt this way, but this book made me realize that, hey, these are very normal feelings.

Julie Zhuo：有多少人会告诉我一些事情，比如我以为我是唯一有这种感觉的人，但是这本书让我意识到，嘿，这些都是很正常的感觉。

And that's certainly how I felt, just stumbling through and feeling like an imposter for so many years.

这当然就是我的感受，多年来我一直跌跌撞撞地感觉自己像个冒名顶替者。

And so it really is very gratifying to hear that from readers.

因此，从读者那里听到这样的消息确实令人非常高兴。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like it's the modern-day high output management.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得这是现代的高产出管理。

That's the book that's been mentioned most on this podcast and it feels like this is just a modern version.

这是这个播客中提到最多的书，感觉这只是一个现代版本。

I feel like that book is actually out of date in a lot of ways, so I can see why people are really drawn to it.

我觉得那本书在很多方面实际上已经过时了，所以我明白为什么人们真的被它吸引。

And this is a great segue to the first area I want to spend some time on, which is it feels like a lot of the skills you learn as a manager translate to being really good with AI and using AI tools really well.

这是我想花一些时间讨论的第一个领域的一个很好的延续，那就是，作为一名经理，你学到的很多技能都会转化为真正擅长人工智能并很好地使用人工智能工具。

And I want to talk through a few trends that I want to get your take on that relate to this general theme.

我想谈谈一些趋势，我想了解您对与这个总体主题相关的看法。

The first is it feels like just everyone is going to become a manager in the near future because of agents being so integrated into our workflows.

首先，由于代理如此融入我们的工作流程，感觉在不久的将来每个人都会成为经理。

There's this agentic society that we're coming to and it feels like the same skills of being a manager make you really good working with agents.

我们即将进入一个代理社会，感觉就像作为一名经理的相同技能可以让你很好地与代理一起工作。

Just thoughts on that and where you think that's going to go.

只是对此的想法以及你认为它会走向何方。

Julie Zhuo: I 100% believe that and agree with that, which is that management is just about, in my mind, having an outcome.

卓朱莉：我百分百相信并同意这一点，在我看来，管理就是要有结果。

So you want to get something done.

所以你想要完成某件事。

That's the thing.

就是这样。

You have a north star, you have a vision, and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done.

你有一颗北极星，你有一个愿景，你只是想弄清楚如何使用你所拥有的资源来完成这件事。

And typically when we talk about management in traditional settings, we talk about the resources being people, and getting the right talent, and making sure that you've got the assemble the Avengers, so you've got the right mix of skills that you need.

通常，当我们谈论传统环境中的管理时，我们谈论的资源是人，并获得合适的人才，并确保你已经组装了复仇者联盟，这样你就拥有了所需的正确技能组合。

The second lever is around, okay, what's the purpose?

第二个杠杆就在附近，好吧，有什么用呢？

Does everyone know what they're supposed to do with their talents?

每个人都知道自己应该用自己的才能做什么吗？

Do we have a goal?

我们有目标吗？

Do we have a purpose?

我们有目标吗？

And then the third thing is process, which is how should all of these different people and tools come together?

第三件事是流程，即所有这些不同的人员和工具应该如何结合在一起？

Julie Zhuo: And these are still the fundamentals of working with agentic systems.

Julie Zhuo：这些仍然是使用代理系统的基础。

You still need a goal.

你还需要一个目标。

You need to be very clear about what the outcome is and you have to understand the strengths of, used to be people, but now it's basically models.

你需要非常清楚结果是什么，你必须了解过去是人的优点，但现在基本上是模型。

And different models have different strengths, so it's like they have different personalities.

而且不同的模特有不同的长处，所以就像他们有不同的性格一样。

And so you kind have to get to know it, develop an intuition for it so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes.

因此，您必须了解它，培养对它的直觉，以便您可以使用正确的工具来实现正确的目的。

And I mean, we talk about agents, but we also talk about what are the tools that agents have access to?

我的意思是，我们谈论代理，但我们也谈论代理可以使用哪些工具？

So you still have to make decisions around that and then there's of course process, which is how you do it.

所以你仍然必须围绕这个做出决定，然后当然还有流程，这就是你如何做。

And now I think with better and better models, perhaps the agents get smarter so they can deal with higher and higher levels of figuring out how to do something, but I think it's still very important for us to be able to provide the right context, provide the right high level instruction so that we get what we want.

现在我认为，有了越来越好的模型，也许智能体会变得越来越聪明，这样他们就可以处理越来越高水平的问题，弄清楚如何做某事，但我认为对于我们来说，能够提供正确的背景、提供正确的高级指令，以便我们得到我们想要的东西仍然非常重要。

Julie Zhuo: So really, it's the same principles and I absolutely agree with you that more and more of us are going to have to double down on these skills to be able to use these tools very effectively.

Julie Zhuo：实际上，这是相同的原则，我完全同意你的观点，我们中越来越多的人将不得不加倍努力掌握这些技能，才能非常有效地使用这些工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: So along those lines, I have your book right here.

Lenny Rachitsky：按照这些思路，我这里有你的书。

You have this list of a manager's job is to build a team that works well together, support members in reaching their career goals and create processes to get work done smoothly and efficiently, which is basically exactly what you just said.

您列出的经理的工作清单是建立一个合作良好的团队，支持成员实现职业目标并创建流程以顺利有效地完成工作，这基本上正是您刚才所说的。

Interestingly, that middle bullet is the part you don't have to worry about anymore with agents.

有趣的是，中间的那点是你不必再为特工担心的部分。

You don't have to worry about their career development and progress in

您不必担心他们的职业发展和进步

Julie Zhuo: That's true.

卓朱莉：确实如此。

That's true, though some people do joke that if we don't treat our agents nice, what's going to happen when AGI comes?

确实如此，尽管有些人确实开玩笑说，如果我们不善待我们的特工，那么当 AGI 到来时会发生什么？

And maybe it still might benefit us to be kind.

也许友善仍然对我们有好处。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm one of those people that says thank you to the Waymo when I leave and just thanks ChatGPT when I'm in voice mode.

Lenny Rachitsky：我是那些在我离开时向 Waymo 表示感谢、在我处于语音模式时仅感谢 ChatGPT 的人之一。

Just like, "Thank you.

就像，“谢谢你。

That was really helpful." So along these lines, I know there's a lot of ways to go here, but just in terms of skills that are important to a manager, which do you think are most valuable to develop in working with agents in AI systems?

这真的很有帮助。”因此，沿着这些思路，我知道有很多方法可以实现，但就对经理来说很重要的技能而言，您认为在与人工智能系统中的代理合作时开发哪些技能最有价值？

I think about things like clarity, communication.

我会考虑诸如清晰度、沟通等问题。

Just what comes to mind when you think about here's the things you want to double down on as you're learning to be manager that will also help you be really good at AI tooling and working with agents?

当您想到在学习成为经理时想要加倍努力的事情时，您会想到什么，这些事情也将帮助您真正擅长人工智能工具和与代理合作？

Julie Zhuo: The first is defining the goal and defining the outcome and being really, really crystal clear on what does success look like.

Julie Zhuo：首先是定义目标和结果，并且非常非常清楚成功是什么样子。

If you ask a company to do this, we'll know that this is challenging for humans.

如果你要求一家公司这样做，我们就会知道这对人类来说是一个挑战。

I think a lot of times when you talk about why is alignment so difficult at a big company, it often comes down to this question, which is different people may have different pictures of what success looks like.

我想很多时候当你谈论为什么在大公司协调如此困难时，通常会归结为这个问题，即不同的人对成功的看法可能不同。

And even if I describe in human words, Lenny, I want to build this product and it's going to be amazing, or this podcast episode, which you asked me, want lots of people to hear it and take away things, that's very general.

即使我用人类的语言来描述，莱尼，我想打造这个产品，它会很棒，或者你问我的这个播客节目，希望很多人听到它并带走一些东西，这是非常笼统的。

How do we get even more specific so that we know without question whether we've hit it or not.

我们如何变得更加具体，以便我们毫无疑问地知道我们是否达到目标。

And this is actually a really, really difficult problem.

这实际上是一个非常非常困难的问题。

Julie Zhuo: It's a difficult question for us because, again, we tend to think very high level.

Julie Zhuo：这对我们来说是一个很难回答的问题，因为我们往往会思考非常高的层次。

So figuring out how to boil it down so that an agent can really understand what success and failure looks like is a lot of the game.

因此，弄清楚如何将其归结为使代理能够真正理解成功和失败是什么样子是游戏的大部分内容。

And I think this also relates to things like, well, that's why we have to write evals and that's why they're so important, because they're helping us understand what is the objective criteria.

我认为这也与诸如此类的事情有关，这就是为什么我们必须编写评估，这就是为什么它们如此重要，因为它们帮助我们理解什么是客观标准。

And these days I work in data and my company is all about trying to automate data analysis.

这些天我从事数据工作，我的公司致力于实现数据分析自动化。

And the forever question goes the whole point of data and the whole point of metrics and KPIs is we're trying to put a little bit more of an objective measure or get as crystal clear as possible about what success looks like.

永远存在的问题是，数据、指标和 KPI 的全部意义在于，我们试图提供更多客观的衡量标准，或者尽可能清楚地了解成功是什么样子。

And I think it's really an art more than it is like a science, but that's the first thing.

我认为它更像是一门艺术，而不是一门科学，但这是第一件事。

I think if you're really unclear about what success looks like, the prompt, you're probably not going to get the most amazing work.

我认为，如果你真的不清楚成功是什么样子，提示，你可能不会得到最令人惊奇的工作。

I think that's true for managing teams and it's very much true for managing AIs.

我认为这对于管理团队来说是正确的，对于管理人工智能来说也是如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let me actually flip this on you and talk about another trend that we're seeing, which is this kind of flattening of orgs, managers being let go.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我来谈谈我们看到的另一个趋势，那就是组织的扁平化，经理们被解雇。

Everyone's becoming an IC again.

每个人都再次成为IC。

I just had the CEO of Airtable on the podcast and his whole shtick was that CEOs have to become ICs again.

我刚刚在播客上看到了 Airtable 的首席执行官，他的全部特点是首席执行官必须再次成为 IC。

He's coding more than he's ever coded again and his feeling is you have to know what's possible by being in the weeds in order to figure out what your product should be.

他编写的代码比他再次编写的代码还要多，他的感觉是你必须知道在杂草中可能发生什么，才能弄清楚你的产品应该是什么。

I also just saw a stat that Google let go of so many of their middle managers of smaller teams.

我还刚刚看到一个统计数据，谷歌解雇了很多小团队的中层管理人员。

It's just like this flattening trend.

就像这种扁平化的趋势一样。

So do we even need managers, I guess is one question in the future, and then just thoughts on how this will play out?

那么我们是否需要管理者，我想这是未来的一个问题，然后只是思考这将如何发挥作用？

Julie Zhuo: So I think the real promise and magic of AI that we're seeing in the workplace is that it leads us to each individual is far more empowered.

Julie Zhuo：所以我认为我们在工作场所看到的人工智能的真正承诺和魔力在于它让我们每个人都获得了更大的权力。

So it used to be, okay, I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs, so I need to supplement by hiring people to do these jobs.

所以过去，好吧，我没有能力做 10 种不同的工作，所以我需要通过雇佣人来做这些工作来补充。

I need someone who's really good at design, I need someone who's really good at coding, I need someone who's really good at data analysis, and then I'll assemble that team.

我需要一个真正擅长设计的人，我需要一个真正擅长编码的人，我需要一个真正擅长数据分析的人，然后我将组建这个团队。

But now with AI and my companion, it's like, wait a second, AI allows me to do many of those jobs myself.

但现在有了人工智能和我的同伴，等一下，人工智能让我可以自己做很多这样的工作。

Now, I'm not going to do them at what's called the PhD or the highest 1%, 10% level, but if I was at the zero or 10th percentile, it can certainly get me even today very quickly up to the 60th, 70th in terms of what the state of the art is.

现在，我不会在所谓的博士学位或最高的 1%、10% 水平上进行这些工作，但如果我处于第 0 个或第 10 个百分位数，那么即使在今天，就最先进的水平而言，它肯定可以让我很快达到第 60、70 位。

Julie Zhuo: And I think that that unlocks so many doors.

Julie Zhuo：我认为这打开了很多扇门。

And so the main thing that I felt so excited about, and this is something I tell my team all the time, is we need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles.

因此，令我感到如此兴奋的主要事情，也是我一直告诉我的团队的事情，是我们需要消除这些传统角色的界限。

So in the past, again, we would have a traditional team, engineers, product manager, designer, researcher, data scientist.

所以在过去，我们仍然有一个传统的团队，工程师、产品经理、设计师、研究员、数据科学家。

And I think now the teams can look more like, well, it's just two people.

我认为现在团队看起来更像是，好吧，只有两个人。

And they could be any of these traditional disciplines, but the key thing is they can now use AI to help themselves do a lot of the things that the other folks used to be able to do.

他们可以是这些传统学科中的任何一个，但关键是他们现在可以使用人工智能来帮助自己做很多其他人过去能够做的事情。

So in some ways we can drop all of these different role distinctions and call ourselves builders.

因此，在某些方面，我们可以放弃所有这些不同的角色区别，并称自己为建设者。

I think that's sort of the most general purpose way of thinking about what we can all be.

我认为这是思考我们能够成为什么样的人的最通用的方式。

We can all be builders.

我们都可以成为建设者。

We can all be builders and I'd love for us to get to the world where that's like the title.

我们都可以成为建设者，我希望我们能够进入像标题一样的世界。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's funny.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。

That's the term I've been actually using more and more.

这就是我实际上越来越多地使用的术语。

I used to orient this podcast as a newsletter around product managers and then I started using just product to be a little more broad.

我曾经将这个播客定位为围绕产品经理的时事通讯，然后我开始只使用产品来更广泛一些。

And now I'm actually using that term builder and I love that term because it's exactly what you're saying.

现在我实际上正在使用这个术语“构建器”，我喜欢这个术语，因为它正是您所说的。

And this is very much a theme that comes up often in these conversations more and more, just the lines are blurring.

这在很大程度上是这些对话中越来越频繁出现的一个主题，只是界限越来越模糊。

I'm curious at your company, how does that look?

我对你们公司很好奇，你们公司怎么样？

What are you doing differently?

你在做什么不同的事情？

What are you seeing on the ground within your company that maybe would be different from a few years ago?

您认为公司内部有什么可能与几年前不同的地方？

Julie Zhuo: So we have eliminated more roles.

卓朱莉：所以我们取消了更多的角色。

For example, we thought we would need a bunch of product managers.

例如，我们认为我们需要一群产品经理。

It's turned out that actually if you don't have a product manager, I know this might be going against a little bit of the ethos of where Lenny started, but I find that sometimes when you have a designer or a product manager, and let's say I'm an engineer, then when I have a problem, like I need to figure out the product definition, my default will be, well, I've got these people and that's kind of their job description, so I'm just going to delegate that to them.

事实证明，实际上，如果你没有产品经理，我知道这可能有点违背 Lenny 开始时的精神，但我发现有时当你有设计师或产品经理时，假设我是一名工程师，那么当我遇到问题时，比如我需要弄清楚产品定义，我的默认设置将是，好吧，我有这些人，这就是他们的工作描述，所以我只是将其委托给他们。

And I think that in doing so, again, we want to be polite, we want to respect everyone's lanes.

我认为，在这样做时，我们要再次保持礼貌，我们要尊重每个人的车道。

I think that's a missed opportunity for that, if I'm the engineer, to be like, "Wait a second, I should probably focus a lot, too."I need to understand and have an opinion about what to build or what the user experience is.

我认为这是一个错失的机会，如果我是工程师，我会说，“等一下，我可能也应该集中注意力。”我需要了解要构建什么或用户体验是什么，并对此有自己的看法。

Julie Zhuo: And so we found that if we actually make teams smaller and we even in the past, pre-AI, just have fewer of these, it allowed everyone to be like, "Wait, we don't have product manager on the team, so communication's up to me.

Julie Zhuo：所以我们发现，如果我们真的缩小团队规模，即使在过去，人工智能出现之前，团队的规模也会减少，这会让每个人都会说，“等等，我们团队中没有产品经理，所以沟通取决于我。

Figuring out how we get greatest value to users is something that is now strictly in my charter.

弄清楚我们如何为用户获得最大价值是我的章程中严格规定的事情。

And so that's why I'm such a big fan of we can make teams smaller and we can eliminate these lines.

这就是为什么我如此热衷于我们可以缩小团队规模，并且我们可以消除这些线路。

Sure.

当然。

Again, I'm not trying to say everyone has to do everything.

再说一遍，我并不是想说每个人都必须做所有事情。

We still can respect the fact that you might be much better at this particular skill than me, but it's less about the role and it's more about the specific context that we're in.

我们仍然可以尊重这样一个事实，即您可能比我更擅长这项特定技能，但这与角色无关，而更多与我们所处的特定环境有关。

Julie Zhuo: And I find that whenever you have teams and you empower them to be able to take more action on their specific context rather than having these higher level of rules or policies or this is how it's supposed to be, then you get better work.

Julie Zhuo：我发现，只要你有团队，并且你授权他们能够根据自己的具体情况采取更多行动，而不是制定更高级别的规则或政策，或者本来就是这样，那么你就会得到更好的工作。

You get faster work and you get happier employees because people feel like they actually can have the power to create the thing that they want.

你的工作速度更快，员工也更快乐，因为人们觉得他们实际上有能力创造他们想要的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's really interesting, just that constraint of not having a PM makes the engineer realize they're not going to wait for someone else to do it.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，只是没有 PM 的限制让工程师意识到他们不会等待其他人来做这件事。

They have to figure it out.

他们必须弄清楚。

The obvious trick there is they have to be good at this.

显而易见的技巧是他们必须擅长于此。

It's a very different job from engineering to be really good at articulating here's the problem we're going to solve, here's why it's important that we're solving, here's how we're going to prioritize everything we're thinking about, here's how we get alignment.

这是一项与工程工作截然不同的工作，要真正擅长阐明我们要解决的问题，这就是我们要解决的问题的重要性，这就是我们如何优先考虑我们正在考虑的一切，这就是我们如何保持一致。

Is there something you do differently when you're hiring these engineers, knowing you're going to probably not hire PM?

当你知道你可能不会雇佣 PM 时，你在招聘这些工程师时是否会采取不同的做法？

And just that feels really hard to hire for someone that's really good at all these things.

就这一点来说，聘用一个真正擅长所有这些事情的人真的很难。

Julie Zhuo: It is true and I'm not trying to say again that everyone needs to be good at everything.

Julie Zhuo：确实如此，我并不是想说每个人都需要擅长所有事情。

I don't think that's very realistic.

我认为这不太现实。

I do think, for example, if we were going to create a team and we're going to have a couple engineers and none of them are very good at thinking through product requirements or what the user angle is, we probably do need to supplement the team with somebody with that skill set.

例如，我确实认为，如果我们要创建一个团队，并且有几名工程师，但他们都不擅长思考产品需求或用户角度是什么，那么我们可能确实需要为团队补充具有该技能的人员。

And that might be a designer, or that might be another engineer who's really good at that, or that might be a traditional product manager, or even sometimes a data analyst who's really good at it.

那可能是一名设计师，或者可能是另一位非常擅长这一点的工程师，或者可能是一名传统的产品经理，甚至有时是一位非常擅长这一点的数据分析师。

So that skill is still important and the team still needs to have that skill, otherwise it's probably not going to produce the best outcome.

因此，这项技能仍然很重要，团队仍然需要拥有这项技能，否则可能不会产生最好的结果。

But I like to think of it as what are the skills that are needed for this and can we now find a couple people?

但我喜欢将其视为为此需要哪些技能，我们现在可以找到几个人吗？

Julie Zhuo: But it doesn't mean we just automatically go to that script of need a PM, need a designer, need three engineers, need that.

Julie Zhuo：但这并不意味着我们会自动进入需要一名产品经理、一名设计师、三名工程师等脚本。

Another example for us is even thinking about front end, back end engineering.

我们的另一个例子甚至是考虑前端、后端工程。

And it used to be like some people are front engineers.

过去就像有些人是前端工程师一样。

So if you have a project and it's got some front end, some back end, the shortcut is like I need one of these and one of these and that's how it's going to go.

因此，如果你有一个项目，它有一些前端、一些后端，那么捷径就是我需要其中之一，然后又需要其中之一，这就是它的发展方式。

But if you say, look, you're an engineer, you're a builder, this has a little bit of front end, but you know what?

但如果你说，看，你是一名工程师，你是一名建筑商，这有一点前端，但你知道吗？

You can probably figure that out.

你也许能明白这一点。

Use AI to help you figure it out.

使用人工智能来帮助您解决这个问题。

Get obviously someone who's a specialist to review the code or to give you some high level guidance on things, but just do it.

显然找一个专家来审查代码或者给你一些关于事情的高级指导，但就去做吧。

And ever since we started to implement that as well, we see again a little bit of you have to invest a little bit in the beginning.

自从我们开始实施这一点以来，我们再次看到你们必须在一开始就投入一点。

So people are not as comfortable.

所以人们并没有那么舒服。

Julie Zhuo: They have to learn, so initially things take longer, takes a little bit of extra time, versus if you did slot in a front-end specialist and this is a front end project.

Julie Zhuo：他们必须学习，所以一开始事情需要更长的时间，需要一些额外的时间，而不是你聘请了一个前端专家，这是一个前端项目。

It probably would've gone a little bit shorter, but in the long run that investment really pays off because now you have a lot more people who are, again, a little more well rounded and can take on many more pieces just on their own.

它可能会更短一些，但从长远来看，这种投资确实得到了回报，因为现在有更多的人更加全面，可以独自承担更多的工作。

And then in specific scenarios this is super front and heavy.

然后在特定场景中，这是超级前沿和沉重的。

Sure, let's still bring in somebody who is more specialized in that particular skill.

当然，我们仍然要引进更擅长该特定技能的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you've had the experience of working at a mega large company at Meta and now you're building your own startup that's small and in the middle of this trend of just staying very small and staying really lean and just everyone doing more things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你在 Meta 的大型公司工作的经历，现在你正在建立自己的小型初创公司，并且处于这种保持非常小、保持真正精简、每个人都做更多事情的趋势之中。

It's so cool that you're experiencing that.

你能体验到这一点真是太酷了。

So a couple of questions there, just which functions are you seeing most accelerated with all these AI tools?

那么有几个问题，您认为所有这些人工智能工具加速了哪些功能？

Is it engineering?

是工程学吗？

Is it something else?

难道是别的什么？

And then are there tools that have been most helpful to you?

那么有哪些工具对您最有帮助呢？

Just AI tools for folks who'd be like, "I should check it out." I'm guessing Cursor, but curious if there's anything else.

只是为那些会说“我应该检查一下”的人提供的人工智能工具。我猜是 Cursor，但很好奇是否还有其他东西。

Julie Zhuo: Yeah, certainly engineering is one that, I mean, most of our company is engineers, so that's the one that we focused on a bunch.

Julie Zhuo：是的，当然工程是一个，我的意思是，我们公司的大多数人都是工程师，所以这是我们重点关注的一个。

I certainly do see more people also prototyping things.

我确实看到越来越多的人也在制作原型。

We have two designers, but we also see engineers.

我们有两名设计师，但我们也看到工程师。

We have a team that's called product science, which is this interesting blend of you can think about it as like a forward deployed person who has a lot of data analysis background and is kind of playing a customer success role and also kind of playing a product role.

我们有一个叫做产品科学的团队，这是一个有趣的组合，你可以把它想象成一个具有丰富数据分析背景的前沿部署人员，既扮演着客户成功的角色，也扮演着产品的角色。

And you see them starting to take on building more prototypes or getting into some of the engineering.

你会看到他们开始构建更多原型或进入一些工程领域。

And so it's really lovely to see that blend of everyone can do a little bit of everything else and we're all encouraging each other.

所以很高兴看到每个人都可以做一些其他的事情，我们都互相鼓励。

The other thing that recently we've also been trying to do a lot more is just obviously we say, "Hey, engineer, now you can do analysis."

最近我们也一直在尝试做更多的事情，显然我们说，“嘿，工程师，现在你可以进行分析了。”

Julie Zhuo: And their first thing is like, "Oh, I don't really know analysis." This is where ChatGPT comes in.

Julie Zhuo：他们的第一句话就是，“哦，我真的不懂分析。”这就是 ChatGPT 发挥作用的地方。

And it's like traditionally we would say, "Well, I have to learn that from a human.

就像传统上我们会说：“好吧，我必须向人类学习这一点。

I have to ask this person and now I'm going to take a bunch of their time because I want them to explain everything to me." And in fact, I think these days ChatGPT or these other AI tools are better teachers.

我必须问这个人，现在我要花他们很多时间，因为我希望他们向我解释一切。”事实上，我认为现在 ChatGPT 或其他人工智能工具是更好的老师。

I find that we tend to maybe not use them quite as much just for the purposes of accelerating our education or even going through something.

我发现我们往往不会仅仅为了加速我们的教育甚至经历一些事情而使用它们。

Sometimes what I'll do is I'll find a curriculum online.

有时我会在网上查找课程。

And if you take a course, it'll be like this 12 week curriculum and I'll just feed it into ChatGPT and I'll say, "Help me customize a program for me using the ways that I like to learn."

如果你参加一门课程，就像这个为期 12 周的课程，我会将其输入 ChatGPT，然后我会说，“帮助我使用我喜欢的学习方式为我定制一个程序。”

Julie Zhuo: I am a person who really needs examples.

卓朱莉：我是一个很需要榜样的人。

I need a lot of explain like I'm five.

我需要很多解释，就像我五岁一样。

Give me an analogy.

给我一个类比。

And I know some other people on my team are like, "These examples don't make any sense." We're different types of learners and so the idea of a tool that personalizes learning for each of us really helps us, I think, accelerate and just learn these skills much faster than before.

我知道我团队中的其他一些人会说，“这些例子没有任何意义。”我们是不同类型的学习者，因此我认为，为我们每个人提供个性化学习的工具的想法确实有助于我们加速并比以前更快地学习这些技能。

So yes, the tools are great.

所以是的，这些工具很棒。

We can use Cursor, it helps us, it autocompletes, it writes a bunch of things, but the acceleration of learning I think is another maybe underutilized tool in all of our arsenals just because I know whenever I talk to people, we forget.

我们可以使用光标，它帮助我们，它自动完成，它写了一堆东西，但我认为加速学习是我们所有武器库中另一个可能未得到充分利用的工具，因为我知道每当我与人交谈时，我们都会忘记。

We don't think that, wait, yes, we could be doing that and just sitting down and probably in 30 minutes or an hour learn so much faster than what we used to be able to do before.

我们不认为，等等，是的，我们可以这样做，只是坐下来，可能在 30 分钟或一个小时内学习比我们以前能够做的要快得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such an interesting point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的观点。

There's these tools that are in the just in time, helping you move faster, but you also need to learn how to do something, some foundational lessons.

这些工具正好可以帮助您更快地行动，但您也需要学习如何做某事，一些基础课程。

What's an area that your team did that?

您的团队在哪些领域做了这件事？

What did they work on learning?

他们在学习上做了哪些工作？

Julie Zhuo: So I'll give you an example.

Julie Zhuo：那我给你举个例子。

I was just talking to an engineer this morning and he's written a bunch of these algorithms.

今天早上我刚刚和一位工程师交谈，他写了一堆这样的算法。

So one of the things our company does is we're trying to automate data analysis, so one of the things we have to do is obviously understand the best practices.

因此，我们公司所做的一件事就是尝试实现数据分析自动化，因此我们必须做的事情之一显然就是了解最佳实践。

If there's a type of question ...

如果有某种类型的问题...

Julie Zhuo: ...

卓朱莉：……

To do is obviously understand the best practices.

要做的显然是了解最佳实践。

If there's a type of question, "Hey, what features are really the ones that people pay for?" We need to kind of figure out what is the right analysis to do.

如果有这样一种问题：“嘿，哪些功能才是人们真正需要付费的？”我们需要弄清楚什么是正确的分析。

And so the engineer was saying to me, "Julie, I feel like I really understand the how.

所以工程师对我说：“朱莉，我觉得我真的明白怎么做。

I know the algorithms, I know we do root cause analysis, how we do that.

我知道算法，我知道我们进行根本原因分析，以及我们如何做到这一点。

But what I don't really understand is why or when this would be most useful.

但我真正不明白的是为什么或何时这最有用。

In what context in a company would this company come up?" Because he's an engineer, he hasn't done that job of being a PM or an executive that asks these types of questions.

这家公司会在什么背景下出现？”因为他是一名工程师，所以他还没有做过提出此类问题的产品经理或高管的工作。

And that was like the perfect thing where yeah, traditionally you might've asked someone, but this is more general purpose.

这就像一个完美的事情，是的，传统上你可能会问某人，但这是更通用的目的。

There's so much resources in the world on the internet about it.

互联网上有很多关于它的资源。

This is like the perfect type of question where if you just talk to ChatGPT, it's probably going to give you a much better answer and allow you to go deeper.

这就像一个完美的问题类型，如果您只与 ChatGPT 交谈，它可能会给您一个更好的答案并让您更深入。

Julie Zhuo: And a secondary thing we've been learning too is this idea of, almost like as a...

Julie Zhuo：我们也一直在学习的第二件事是这个想法，几乎就像......

Using ChatGPT it's for to test your learning.

使用 ChatGPT 是为了测试您的学习情况。

So explains a bunch of things.

所以解释了很多事情。

And so what I often like to do is like, "Okay, I read this, so this..." I try to explain back what I heard.

所以我经常喜欢做的就是，“好吧，我读了这个，所以这个......”我尝试解释我听到的内容。

"So does this mean...

“所以这是否意味着...

Is that right way to think about it, that this is kind of like this analogy?" And ChatGPT will critique me.

这有点像这样的类比，这样思考正确吗？” ChatGPT 会批评我。

"Yes, that is right," or "No, you didn't quite get that right.

“是的，没错，”或者“不，你没说清楚。

In fact..." And it always tries to say it nicely.

事实上……”而且它总是试图用好听的话来表达。

This is a funny part.

这是一个有趣的部分。

It'll be like, "That's close, and then eventually it's like, "You were completely wrong." Just in the style.

它会像，“那很接近，然后最终会像，“你完全错了。”只是风格。

But it helps so much because it's interactive and so we can really test whether we really understand the concept by trying to retell it back in our own way.

但它很有帮助，因为它是交互式的，所以我们可以通过尝试用自己的方式复述它来真正测试我们是否真正理解这个概念。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's incredible just how many ways all this AI breakthrough is helping us advance and do more and learn more and become better.

Lenny Rachitsky：令人难以置信的是，所有这些人工智能突破在很多方面帮助我们进步、做得更多、学到更多并变得更好。

I know there's some downsides, but this is incredible.

我知道有一些缺点，但这令人难以置信。

So many ways of getting better and faster.

有很多方法可以变得更好更快。

I want to spend a little more time on this data analysis stuff.

我想在数据分析方面多花一点时间。

So again, you have such an interesting trajectory from working at a big company to starting your own small company.

再说一次，从在一家大公司工作到创办自己的小公司，你有一个非常有趣的轨迹。

From being head of design to now being obsessed with data and analytics.

从设计主管到现在痴迷于数据和分析。

So let me spend a little time there.

让我在那里度过一点时间。

What do AI companies that have kind of figured out how to use AI for data analysis and data work, doing differently, what are people missing and sleeping on in terms of getting better at working with data?

人工智能公司已经弄清楚如何使用人工智能进行数据分析和数据工作，采取不同的做法，人们在更好地处理数据方面错过了什么？

And let me just add this point.

让我补充一点。

It feels like we're almost working through , here's all the blockers to a team moving forward.

感觉我们快要解决了，这是团队前进的所有障碍。

There's like waiting for the PM to write the PRD and then there's waiting for the data scientists to give you answers analysis.

就像等待 PM 写 PRD，然后等待数据科学家给你答案分析。

So this is another really cool unblock that every team member will have.

所以这是每个团队成员都会拥有的另一个非常酷的解锁。

Julie Zhuo: So your first question was how are a bunch of AI companies using data?

Julie Zhuo：所以你的第一个问题是，一堆人工智能公司如何使用数据？

So the funny thing, my funny answer to this is, I don't actually think a lot of the fast-growing companies are using data well at this point.

所以有趣的是，我对此的有趣回答是，我实际上并不认为很多快速增长的公司目前都很好地使用了数据。

And the main reason why is because traditionally things just didn't grow that fast.

主要原因是传统上事物的增长速度没有那么快。

And so if you got to a hundred million users, your company has probably been around for a while, and if your company has been around for a while, you've had time to set up things like logging and you've hired a growth team at that point and you've hired a data team and they've done a bunch of work to log an instrument and then transform the data.

因此，如果你有一亿用户，你的公司可能已经存在了一段时间，如果你的公司已经存在了一段时间，你就有时间设置诸如日志记录之类的东西，并且你已经雇佣了一个增长团队，你已经雇佣了一个数据团队，他们已经做了很多工作来记录仪器，然后转换数据。

And we've talked about what is the observability for our business.

我们已经讨论了我们业务的可观察性是什么。

And you just usually had years to build and develop that, because of the rate of growth.

由于增长率的原因，你通常有几年的时间来建立和发展它。

Julie Zhuo: And so today we see companies that are growing insane and there's still about 10 people or two people or however many people, but they've got hundreds of millions in ARR and hundreds of millions of users.

Julie Zhuo：所以今天我们看到的公司正在变得疯狂，仍然有大约 10 个人或两个人或无论多少人，但他们已经拥有数亿的 ARR 和数亿的用户。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

They don't actually have all of that infrastructure, that logging, to be able to truly do data analysis.

他们实际上并不拥有所有基础设施、日志记录，无法真正进行数据分析。

So I would say that these companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes and we see that.

所以我想说，这些公司完全依靠良好的直觉和良好的氛围而生存，我们看到了这一点。

You don't really need data analysis to sometimes make something that works.

有时你并不真的需要数据分析来做出有用的东西。

But I think what data helps us do is in my mind it sort of is helping us reflect back what is really reality.

但我认为数据可以帮助我们做的是在我看来它可以帮助我们反映真正的现实。

And so of course if ARR growing, awesome, great, keep doing what you're doing.

当然，如果 ARR 增长，太棒了，很棒，那就继续做你正在做的事情。

But what always happens is eventually things stop growing.

但总是会发生的事情最终会停止增长。

Growth does not happen forever.

增长不会永远发生。

And usually when growth stops, everyone has this question of, "What's going on?

通常当增长停止时，每个人都会有这样的问题：“发生了什么事？

Why did it happen?".

为什么会发生这样的事？”。

Julie Zhuo: And then you start to be able to see the power of, if you've instrumented everything very well and you have a very good observability model for your business, it's much easier to start to get into the root cause, it's easier to even predict whether growth will slow down at a certain point, it's easier to catch these trends earlier.

Julie Zhuo：然后你开始能够看到它的力量，如果你对一切都进行了很好的检测，并且你的业务有一个非常好的可观察模型，那么就更容易开始深入了解根本原因，甚至更容易预测增长是否会在某个点放缓，更容易更早地抓住这些趋势。

If you don't have good observability over how your business runs and what the company's key levers are, then you will be scrambling, and at that point, that's usually when people start investing a ton in data.

如果你对你的业务如何运作以及公司的关键杠杆没有很好的观察力，那么你就会陷入混乱，而到那时，通常人们就会开始在数据上投入大量资金。

So I wouldn't say that a lot of these hot companies are quite there yet, but what I also think is a trend is that every time there's a new technological shift, we actually have to change the way that we think about...

所以我不会说很多热门公司已经存在，但我也认为趋势是，每次出现新的技术转变时，我们实际上都必须改变我们的思考方式......

Analysis has to answer the questions that we have, and if technology changes or context changes, we need new methodologies of analysis.

分析必须回答我们所面临的问题，如果技术发生变化或环境发生变化，我们就需要新的分析方法。

Julie Zhuo: So for example, when mobile came to the forefront, looking at sessions or sessions per day or time spent on mobile, or length of sessions became something that was important for us to understand, are people getting value in this new medium?

Julie Zhuo：例如，当移动设备走到最前沿时，查看每天的会话数或会话数、在移动设备上花费的时间或会话时长成为我们需要了解的重要内容，人们是否在这种新媒体中获得了价值？

I think that's the same with what we have today.

我认为这与我们今天的情况是一样的。

Conversational analytics is totally different.

对话分析完全不同。

Used to be, let's say in the Google world, I knew you were interested in shopping if you click the shopping tab, I know you're interested in maps if you click the maps tab, we can measure clicks.

过去，假设在 Google 世界中，如果您点击“购物”选项卡，我知道您对购物感兴趣；如果您点击“地图”选项卡，我知道您对地图感兴趣，我们可以衡量点击次数。

Today it's just all conversation, and so it's actually harder for us to tease apart what is the user intent.

如今，一切都只是对话，因此我们实际上更难弄清楚用户的意图是什么。

Julie Zhuo: If I worked on any of these LLM, I would say one of probably the biggest questions is, hey, what use cases are growing or what use cases are shrinking?

Julie Zhuo：如果我从事任何这些法学硕士，我会说最大的问题之一可能是，嘿，哪些用例正在增长或哪些用例正在萎缩？

And that's much harder to tell today because it's not just clicks on tabs or pages.

如今这很难说，因为这不仅仅是标签或页面上的点击。

It's like we have to probably use an LLM or a machine learning model to bucket user intent.

这就像我们可能必须使用法学硕士或机器学习模型来存储用户意图。

We probably have to ask questions like, is the flow going really well in conversations?

我们可能不得不问这样的问题：对话的流程真的顺利吗？

Like, if I just ask one question and I don't go back and forth, did the user get value?

就像，如果我只问一个问题并且不来回询问，用户是否获得了价值？

It's always trying to get back to, we're trying to figure out if this was a good experience, but now it's like we need to actually invent new methodologies to help us analyze that.

我们总是试图回到过去，试图弄清楚这是否是一次好的体验，但现在我们需要真正发明新的方法来帮助我们分析这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I think the question is always like with conversation, do you want it to be a long conversation, do you want it to be a short conversation?

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我认为问题总是像对话一样，你希望它是一个长对话，还是一个短对话？

What's the right answer, what's better?

什么是正确答案，什么是更好的答案？

Lenny Rachitsky: I had a ChatGPT on the podcast, Nick Turley, and turns out one of the ways they found the most common use cases early on was watching TikTok comments and things going viral on TikTok after they launched.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在播客上有一个 ChatGPT，Nick Turley，结果发现他们早期发现最常见用例的方法之一就是观看 TikTok 评论以及 TikTok 推出后病毒式传播的内容。

How about that?

怎么样？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so I want to come back to this really interesting, unusual path that you took from being a head of design at Facebook, you're an inspiration to so many designers, now you spend your time on a data startup obsessed with data.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想回到你作为 Facebook 设计主管所走的这条非常有趣、不寻常的道路，你给了很多设计师灵感，现在你把时间花在了一家痴迷于数据的数据初创公司上。

I don't know, classically designers aren't the biggest fans of experiments and data and making decisions based on data.

我不知道，传统设计师并不是实验和数据以及根据数据做出决策的最大粉丝。

When you look at designers and you hear designers kind of push back on like, "No, we don't want to be super data driven, we know better than...

当你看到设计师时，你会听到设计师的反击，比如，“不，我们不想成为超级数据驱动的，我们知道比......

We have a sense of what's beautiful and great and intuition," all these things, what do you think designers are missing when they feel that and say that when they're afraid of writing experiments and data and kind of want to push that out?

我们对美丽、伟大和直觉有一种感觉，”所有这些东西，当设计师有这种感觉并说这些，当他们害怕写实验和数据并有点想把它们推出去时，你认为他们错过了什么？

Julie Zhuo: There's one phrase that my co-founder and I would always discuss with amongst ourselves very early on in which we shared with a lot of the companies that we work with, which is, what you really want is you want to diagnose with data and treat with design.

Julie Zhuo：我和联合创始人很早就经常讨论一句话，我们和很多合作的公司都分享过这句话，那就是，你真正想要的是用数据诊断，用设计治疗。

So data is not a tool that's going to tell you what you should build or what the solution is or how we're going to cure the fact that you don't have really great retention.

因此，数据并不是一种工具，可以告诉您应该构建什么、解决方案是什么，或者我们将如何解决您没有真正出色的保留率这一事实。

It's just not.

事实并非如此。

But it can tell you if you have a problem and where that problem or opportunity might be.

但它可以告诉您是否遇到问题以及问题或机会可能在哪里。

But you still need to go back and undergo a very creative process to figure out what's the best way to solve that.

但你仍然需要回去并经历一个非常有创意的过程来找出解决这个问题的最佳方法。

So that's the first thing I would say, is this framework of, data helps you figure out what's actually happening, what do people like, what are they engaging with, what what not.

所以这是我要说的第一件事，这个数据框架可以帮助你弄清楚实际发生的事情，人们喜欢什么，他们正在参与什么，不参与什么。

Julie Zhuo: It just gives you a story that better reflects reality.

卓朱莉：它只是给你一个更能反映现实的故事。

Because again, we all have stories.

因为，我们都有故事。

We're like, "Oh, my company's amazing, people love us," blah, blah.

我们就像，“哦，我的公司很棒，人们爱我们，”等等等等。

That's the story I want to believe, but reality may be a different picture.

这就是我想相信的故事，但现实可能是另一幅景象。

And so what data is trying to do is capture reality.

因此，数据试图做的就是捕捉现实。

And by the way, I don't think of data just as it's an AB test and it's quantitative things we can measure.

顺便说一句，我并不认为数据只是 AB 测试，而是我们可以测量的定量事物。

To me data is also, well, what did people put onto TikTok and which things went viral, and what are they saying in the Twitter verse or X verse I guess is what it's called now.

对我来说，数据还包括人们在 TikTok 上放了什么、哪些内容疯传，以及他们在 Twitter 诗句或 X 诗句中说了什么，我想这就是现在的名称。

Julie Zhuo: And if you do a customer interview, that's still all data, it's just that that is a little harder to distill and quantify.

Julie Zhuo：如果你进行客户访谈，那仍然是所有数据，只是提取和量化有点困难。

Although now with AI, we have better tools for synthesizing.

尽管现在有了人工智能，我们有了更好的综合工具。

So that's all data in my mind and it's just all trying to help us understand what is really happening, what is the phenomenon that's happening in reality and how do we understand it?

这就是我脑海中的所有数据，它们只是试图帮助我们了解到底发生了什么，现实中正在发生什么现象以及我们如何理解它？

You still have to go and invent and create and dream, and there's no formula and there's no science that will tell you exactly how you're going to make a hit.

你仍然需要去发明、创造和梦想，没有公式也没有科学可以准确地告诉你如何取得成功。

You can experiment, which allows you to try more things maybe and more rigorously understand what that does in the short term.

你可以进行实验，这可以让你尝试更多的事情，并更严格地理解它在短期内的作用。

It's all very contextualized.

这一切都非常切合实际。

A-B tests don't tell you what will happen in the very long run, and again, it's all still data, you still have to synthesize and figure out what to do.

A-B 测试并不能告诉你从长远来看会发生什么，而且，这仍然是数据，你仍然需要综合并弄清楚该怎么做。

Julie Zhuo: So that's the thing, I'll say.

Julie Zhuo：我想说的是，就是这样。

Diagnose with data and treat with design.

用数据诊断，用设计治疗。

The second thing I will usually tell designers about, is I find that sometimes, and maybe it's the, let's call it the false precision of numbers that we kind of fall into, right?

我通常会告诉设计师的第二件事是，我发现有时，也许是，让我们称之为数字的错误精度，我们陷入其中，对吧？

Because it's like, okay, we got these numbers and the numbers go up.

因为就像，好吧，我们得到了这些数字，而且数字还在上升。

It's like no, the fact that you still have to choose which things you look at, is an art, not a science.

好像不，事实上你仍然必须选择你所看的东西，这是一门艺术，而不是一门科学。

And your interpretation of if the number went up 5%, is that good, is that not good, is also an interpretation and is an art, not a science.

如果这个数字上升了 5%，你的解释是好还是不好，这也是一种解释，是一门艺术，而不是一门科学。

It's just that sometimes I think we can give ourselves this feeling, and I get it, sometimes there's this instinct to want to control things and we want everything to be buttoned up, and we want to know that if we did ABC, everything will be great, our career's going to be awesome, our product's going to rocket ship.

只是有时候我想我们可以给自己这种感觉，我明白了，有时候我们有一种想要控制事情的本能，我们希望一切都搞定，我们想知道如果我们做了 ABC，一切都会很棒，我们的职业生涯将会很棒，我们的产品将会飞速发展。

Julie Zhuo: And I think designers are rightly often pushing back and saying, "No, the reality is this stuff is ambiguous and there's uncertainty and we can never know for sure." And I think all that is quite true.

Julie Zhuo：我认为设计师经常反驳并说：“不，现实是这些东西是模棱两可的，存在不确定性，我们永远无法确定。”我认为这一切都是正确的。

So the other thing I would say that I really support is you just actually can't make a really great product by thinking you can A-B test your way into it.

所以我要说的另一件事是，我真正支持的是，你实际上无法通过认为可以进行 A-B 测试来制造出真正出色的产品。

So I fundamentally believe that, but I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

所以我从根本上相信这一点，但我认为我们不应该把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉。

I think there's actually...

我想其实有...

You know?

你知道吗？

It's not either or, it's not like data or design.

它不是非此即彼，它不像数据或设计。

Julie Zhuo: It's like these are just tools for us to use, and I would say every amazing designer that I've ever met is absolutely obsessed with trying to get a better understanding of reality.

Julie Zhuo：就好像这些只是供我们使用的工具，我想说我见过的每一位出色的设计师都绝对痴迷于试图更好地理解现实。

They want to know what users really think, they want to know what they're really doing.

他们想知道用户的真实想法，他们想知道他们真正在做什么。

If they could read every user's minds, that's the thing we would all want as a designer is like, if I could just know what everyone is thinking, feeling every time they used it, my life would be a lot easier, because then I would be able to build better and better things.

如果他们能读懂每个用户的想法，这就是我们作为设计师都想要的东西，如果我能知道每个人在想什么，每次他们使用它时的感受，我的生活会容易得多，因为那样我就能够构建出越来越好的东西。

And so that's what it's trying to help us do.

这就是它试图帮助我们做的事情。

It isn't perfect, no metric is going to tell you whatever we hope that it can in terms of the true certainty and precision, but it doesn't mean we can't use it to better our product development.

它并不完美，没有任何指标可以告诉您我们希望它在真正的确定性和精确度方面能够达到的任何效果，但这并不意味着我们不能使用它来更好地开发我们的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to say exactly what you just said, which is every great designer that I've worked with was obsessed with data in the most leaning into the data, versus designers that are just like, "Nah, I think I'm good, I have a sense of what's right, and why would we let that tell us what to do?" And to your point, it's not going to tell you what to do, it'll tell you where opportunities arise.

Lenny Rachitsky：我要说的就是你刚才所说的，与我共事过的每一位伟大的设计师都痴迷于数据，最倾向于数据，而设计师则只是说，“不，我认为我很好，我知道什么是正确的，为什么我们要让它告诉我们该做什么？”就你而言，它不会告诉你该做什么，它会告诉你机会出现在哪里。

Let me take us back to the management chat and maybe just let me ask something broad.

让我带我们回到管理层的谈话，也许让我问一些广泛的问题。

What do you feel is the biggest change in the role and day-to-day work and life of a manager these days with the rise of AI?

您认为，随着人工智能的兴起，管理者的角色以及日常工作和生活最大的变化是什么？

Julie Zhuo: I think that managing change.

Julie Zhuo：我认为是管理变革。

It's always been manager's job to manage change, and there's always the chaos of what's going on.

管理变革一直是经理的工作，但发生的事情总是很混乱。

I just think the rate of change is accelerating, and we've seen that over the last couple of decades.

我只是认为变化的速度正在加快，我们在过去几十年里已经看到了这一点。

And so I find that there's just a great deal more uncertainty that people have about things, like where is AI going to be in two years from now?

所以我发现人们对事物有更多的不确定性，比如两年后人工智能将走向何方？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Who really knows?

谁真正知道？

And so are we going to have AGI in five years?

那么我们会在五年内拥有通用人工智能吗？

That kind of changes a lot about the landscape.

景观发生了很大的变化。

Not to mention, I think there's quite a lot of fear that many organizations are feeling.

更不用说，我认为许多组织都感到非常恐惧。

It's like if my career has always been in design and now these tools are getting better and better at what I'm doing, then holy shit, what happens to my career and my future?

就好像我的职业生涯一直在设计，而现在这些工具在我所做的事情上变得越来越好，那么天哪，我的职业生涯和我的未来会发生什么？

And do I need to pivot?

我需要转向吗？

Do I need to learn different things?

我需要学习不同的东西吗？

Julie Zhuo: And so it's this change, it's this feeling of uncertainty.

Julie Zhuo：所以这就是这种变化，就是这种不确定的感觉。

And I think a lot of times managers have to deal with that in addition to what you were saying before, which is they also have to learn these new skills, which is managing AI and managing these more powerful tools in their arsenal of trying to get things done.

我认为很多时候，除了你之前所说的之外，管理者还必须处理这个问题，他们还必须学习这些新技能，即管理人工智能和管理这些更强大的工具，以试图完成工作。

So that is very different, I think, than maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago.

所以我认为这与 10、20、30 年前有很大不同。

And so I think that the skills that become more important are obviously communication, feedback, compassion, but just being able to work with humans and to have them understand that yes, we are in a state of change.

因此，我认为变得更重要的技能显然是沟通、反馈、同情心，但只是能够与人类合作并让他们明白，是的，我们正处于变革的状态。

I think every leader has to do this now, every startup founder that I know, every CEO, is how do you land this message that things are changing and we need to be very open to change?

我认为现在每个领导者、我认识的每个初创公司创始人、每个首席执行官都必须这样做，你如何传达这样的信息：事情正在发生变化，我们需要对变化保持非常开放的态度？

Julie Zhuo: If we go and stick to our old ways, we're probably going to get left behind, our product's going to get left behind, even our way of doing things is going to be left behind.

Julie Zhuo：如果我们继续坚持原来的方式，我们可能会落后，我们的产品会落后，甚至我们的做事方式也会落后。

So we need to change.

所以我们需要改变。

We need to change our product and we need to change the way that we work, as we all talked about in terms of smaller teams, more nimble, blah, blah, blah.

我们需要改变我们的产品，我们需要改变我们的工作方式，正如我们都谈到的那样，团队更小，更灵活，等等。

But at the same time it's like, how do we do that in a way that doesn't just freak everyone out?

但与此同时，我们如何才能做到这一点，才不会让每个人都感到害怕呢？

And it's like, "Ah, it's chaos.

就像，“啊，太混乱了。

Everything's changing.".

一切都在改变。”

Julie Zhuo: So I think about this metaphor a lot, of the willow tree, which is the willow tree is a very sturdy tree.

卓朱莉：所以我对柳树这个比喻思考了很多，柳树是一棵非常粗壮的树。

It can survive a lot of storms, disasters, et cetera, but it's also very flexible.

它可以经受住很多风暴、灾难等，但它也非常灵活。

The branches are very, very flexible, and that's in some ways what allows it to be very sturdy.

树枝非常非常灵活，这在某种程度上使它非常坚固。

So I think today, management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible, and that is a very hard thing to pull off, but I think that's at least when I even go into...

所以我认为今天的管理实际上是关于坚强而灵活的想法，这是一件很难实现的事情，但我认为至少当我进入时......

I'm like, "Be like the willow tree, Julie.

我想，“像柳树一样，朱莉。

Just imagine the willow tree and try and channel that as the kind of feeling of what it is that we're trying to do together."

想象一下那棵柳树，并尝试将其传达为我们正在努力共同努力的那种感觉。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of a couple things from other guests.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了其他客人的一些事情。

I had Marc Benioff on the podcast and I asked him, "Just how do you deal with all this change?

我在播客上邀请了马克·贝尼奥夫，我问他：“你是如何应对所有这些变化的？

It's like agents now, it was, I don't know, there's AGI coming as you said, just like, "How do you survive through this?" And his advice is just, he's like, "I'm always just like, 'Good.

现在就像特工一样，我不知道，正如你所说，AGI 即将到来，就像“你如何度过这一切？”他的建议就是，“我总是说，‘很好。

This is great.

这太棒了。

This is what we want.

这就是我们想要的。

This is exciting.

这很令人兴奋。

We have so much opportunity, it's just not boring.

我们有很多机会，这并不无聊。

We can always reinvent.'" And he's always embracing with "This is good." And just I'll never forget the way he responded to that.

我们总是可以重新发明。’”他总是拥抱“这很好。”我永远不会忘记他对此的回应方式。

Julie Zhuo: I think if you don't think it's good, it's kind of a painful way to live.

Julie Zhuo：我认为如果你不认为这是好的，那么这是一种痛苦的生活方式。

It'll be very, very difficult over these next.

接下来这些将是非常非常困难的。

So I do think that all things be equal, lean into it.

所以我确实认为一切都是平等的，努力吧。

If you can wake up every day and see it as opportunity and excitement rather than fear, again, they're all flip sides of the same coin, but I think if we can lean more into what could it be, while recognizing that the other side does exist and it's still there.

如果你每天醒来都能将其视为机会和兴奋而不是恐惧，那么它们都是同一枚硬币的两面，但我认为如果我们能够更多地了解它可能是什么，同时认识到另一面确实存在并且仍然存在。

And I think if managers who try to pretend like it isn't there, it's all good, no one's upset, et cetera, there's something also missing about just addressing and being able to be like, yeah, it's hard.

我认为，如果管理者试图假装它不存在，那一切都很好，没有人不高兴，等等，那么仅仅解决问题并能够说，是的，这很难。

Change is hard.

改变是困难的。

We're probably going to get upset.

我们可能会感到不安。

We're going to have some chaos.

我们将会遇到一些混乱。

This is going to happen, but we will work through it because we're going to be flexible and we're going to be able to put our eyes on the big picture of what is possible, which is exciting.

这将会发生，但我们会努力解决它，因为我们将保持灵活性，我们将能够着眼于可能发生的事情的大局，这是令人兴奋的。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's another quote that and came up as you were talking.

Lenny Rachitsky：在您讲话时还提到了另一句话。

I forget who it was exactly, maybe Kevin Wheal, maybe Mike Krieger.

我忘记了到底是谁，也许是凯文·惠尔，也许是迈克·克里格。

They said that this is the most normal things will be, ever.

他们说这是最正常的事情。

Like, it will only get weirder.

就像，它只会变得更奇怪。

And I think giving people that sense of like, okay, just enjoy this normal, because this is going to be only weirder, is we'll at least give people an expectation, real expectations where things might be going.

我认为给人们一种感觉，好吧，享受这种正常的感觉，因为这只会更奇怪，我们至少会给人们一种期望，真正的期望事情可能会发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let me zoom out even further and chat about...

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我把镜头拉得更远，聊聊……

I want to ask you just outside of AI, management in many ways is unchanged.

我想问一下，在人工智能之外，管理在很多方面都没有改变。

It's still a lot of the same work, managing people, helping them be successful, producing great work.

很多工作仍然是一样的，管理人员、帮助他们取得成功、创造伟大的工作。

What are just some of the, I'd say most timeless, most important lessons that you think managers, especially new managers still don't totally understand, need to hear more?

我想说的是，您认为管理者，尤其是新管理者仍然不能完全理解，需要听到更多的最永恒、最重要的教训是什么？

What are just some that come to mind?

我想到的只是一些什么？

And then we'll see where this goes.

然后我们看看会发生什么。

Julie Zhuo: The first thing that comes to mind is the importance of managing yourself and understanding yourself.

卓朱莉：首先想到的是管理自己、了解自己的重要性。

This was chapter five of my book.

这是我书的第五章。

It's called Managing Yourself.

这就是所谓的管理自己。

In fact, when I wrote it, I kind of wanted it to be chapter one, and then my publisher was like, "Well, maybe you should get into some of the tactical..." People don't necessarily think managing other people or manage a team starts with them, but I really do fundamentally believe this, because I think all of us, of course, like any human being, we have things that we're strong at, we have things that we're weak at.

事实上，当我写它的时候，我有点希望它成为第一章，然后我的出版商就像，“好吧，也许你应该进入一些战术......”人们不一定认为管理其他人或管理一个团队从他们开始，但我真的从根本上相信这一点，因为我认为我们所有人，当然，就像任何人一样，我们有我们擅长的事情，我们有我们不擅长的事情。

And I am a very big believer that every strength is its own weakness, and every weakness is a strength.

我坚信，每一个优点都是它自己的弱点，每一个弱点都是一个优点。

Julie Zhuo: There's no such thing as you're going to somehow get every dimension to be 100%.

Julie Zhuo：不可能让每个维度都达到 100%。

In fact, I think one of the most interesting concepts or frameworks for myself, and also even, this is also kind of like a data framework concept, is this concept of dimensionality.

事实上，我认为对我自己来说最有趣的概念或框架之一，甚至，这也有点像数据框架概念，就是维度的概念。

So what dimensionality means is you're a human being, but we can kind of look at you in infinite dimensions.

所以维度意味着你是一个人，但我们可以在无限的维度上看待你。

There is, for example, how good is Lenny at throwing an ax?

例如，莱尼扔斧头的技术有多好？

That's one dimension

这是一个维度

Julie Zhuo: How good is Lenny at being a podcast moderator?

Julie Zhuo：Lenny 作为播客主持人有多擅长？

Fantastic.

太棒了。

Julie Zhuo: How good is Lenny at doing a zero to one type of project in the AI space?

Julie Zhuo：Lenny 在人工智能领域做零到一类型的项目有多擅长？

Right?

对吗？

So again, just can think about these as infinite dimensions.

再次强调，可以将这些视为无限维度。

And the reality is each of our profiles is very unique, it's like a fingerprint.

事实上，我们每个人的个人资料都是非常独特的，就像指纹一样。

So for you it's like these are all these areas that you're really great at, much better, like in the top 1%.

所以对你来说，这些都是你真正擅长的领域，甚至更好，比如在前 1% 的领域。

And then there's some areas where in the top 10%, then there's some areas where you're kind of average, and then there's some dimensions in which you're worse than average compared to other people.

然后，在某些方面，您处于前 10%；在某些方面，您处于平均水平；在某些方面，与其他人相比，您的表现低于平均水平。

And that's just true for all of us.

这对我们所有人来说都是如此。

And what I like about that is therefore if you take that as the model, you realize that none of these dimensions are you entirely.

因此，我喜欢这一点的是，如果你以此为模型，你会意识到这些维度中没有一个完全是你。

So I can make a comment like "Lenny, your ax throwing really could use some improvement."

所以我可以发表这样的评论：“莱尼，你的斧头投掷确实需要一些改进。”

Julie Zhuo: And ideally you're not like, "Julie is saying I'm a bad person, my identity is at risk," right?

Julie Zhuo：理想情况下，你不会像“Julie 说我是一个坏人，我的身份受到威胁”，对吗？

Because it's just one dimension of who you are.

因为这只是你是谁的一个维度。

But what happens sometimes is that we can get very attached to certain dimensions because we start to think that that's who we are.

但有时会发生的情况是，我们可能会非常依恋某些维度，因为我们开始认为那就是我们。

And I think managers can do that, and clearly individuals on their teams.

我认为管理者可以做到这一点，显然团队中的个人也可以做到这一点。

And when that happens, it starts to get very difficult to have, I think more objective conversations about, okay, what can you get better at?

当这种情况发生时，就开始变得非常困难，我认为进行更客观的对话，好吧，你能在哪些方面做得更好？

What can get worse at?

什么会变得更糟？

And so I say all this because I think this framework for me at least, and many people that I've talked to, has helped them realize that somebody can give you feedback or you can be maybe not great at certain dimensions, you can have room to improve, and that's not who you are because you are all of these infinite dimensions in one, and none of them is representative of your true worth as an individual.

所以我之所以这么说，是因为我认为这个框架至少对我以及我交谈过的许多人来说，帮助他们认识到有人可以给你反馈，或者你可能在某些维度上表现不佳，你可以有改进的空间，但这不是你是谁，因为你是所有这些无限维度的一体，它们都不能代表你作为个人的真正价值。

Julie Zhuo: I'm a big believer that we are all beautiful and worthy, and sure we have all of these skills and we want to improve those skills, but it does not speak to whether we are worthy or not by saying whether we are strong or weak in these skills.

Julie Zhuo：我坚信我们都是美丽的、值得的，当然我们拥有所有这些技能，并且我们希望提高这些技能，但并不能通过说我们这些技能的强弱来说明我们是否值得。

And so I think if you can take that and really internalize that, then you can look at yourself a little bit more objectively as a manager, and you can realize that there are areas where you're going to be really strong, there are areas where you have biases, and often they are one and the same.

所以我认为，如果你能接受这一点并真正内化这一点，那么作为一名经理，你就可以更客观地看待自己，你就会意识到，有些领域你会非常强大，有些领域你会有偏见，而且通常它们是相同的。

So I'll give an example.

所以我举一个例子。

People have often told me, I would get this in my performance reviews from managers in the past, like, "Hey Julie, you're really thoughtful.

人们经常告诉我，我会在过去的经理绩效评估中得到这一点，比如，“嘿朱莉，你真的很周到。

So when you think about something, you have a way to think about it, you've clearly thought about it in depth and you've got these frameworks and all this.

所以当你思考某件事时，你有一种思考的方式，你已经清楚地深入思考过它，并且你已经有了这些框架和所有这一切。

That's a great thing.".

这是一件很棒的事情。”

And then on the flip side, I'll get feedback like, "Well, Julie, you don't really say a lot in a dynamic discussion.

另一方面，我会得到这样的反馈：“嗯，朱莉，你在动态讨论中并没有说太多。

You're kind of quiet and you don't really think that quickly on your feet." And what you realize is these are kind of, again two...

你有点安静，你的思考速度并不那么快。”你意识到，这又是两个……

Because I don't do that and I'm not just off the cuff, that's what allows me to oftentimes be very, very thoughtful, or at least, okay, when I was younger, it's very clear that that particular weakness also very much is speaking to a particular strength, which is I am the kind of person that doesn't always have a snap judgment.

因为我不这样做，而且我也不是即兴发挥，这让我经常非常非常深思熟虑，或者至少，好吧，当我年轻的时候，很明显，那个特定的弱点也在很大程度上代表着一种特定的优势，那就是我是那种并不总是有快速判断的人。

I have to really think about it and internalize it and sometimes get to how I feel, and then I can share it and present it in the world.

我必须认真思考并内化它，有时了解我的感受，然后我可以分享它并将其呈现给世界。

Julie Zhuo: And so just knowing that about me is supremely helpful.

Julie Zhuo：所以了解我这一点就非常有帮助。

Now doesn't mean of course that I can never get better at this thing, but what I often think about is mastery is where we realize that both of these we can get better at, and what we want to do is just figure out in the context, what makes sense to be.

当然，现在并不意味着我永远不能在这件事上做得更好，但我经常想到的是掌握是我们意识到我们可以在这两方面做得更好，而我们想做的就是在上下文中弄清楚什么是有意义的。

So I got this feedback and I'm like, "Cool, one of the things I need to work on, is figuring out how to be more open in person, how to speak a little bit more clearly in person, maybe say things like, 'I don't know exactly how I feel about it yet, but this is what I'm thinking right now,'" if there's still clear tactics that will allow me to be a more effective team member and to do a better job in the context of what I'm trying to do with my team.

所以我得到了这样的反馈，我想，“酷，我需要做的事情之一，就是弄清楚如何在面对面时更加开放，如何在面对面时更清楚地说话，也许会说这样的话，‘我还不知道我对此的具体感受，但这就是我现在的想法，’”如果仍然有明确的策略可以让我成为一个更有效的团队成员，并在我正在尝试做的事情中做得更好我的团队。

Julie Zhuo: So I've tried to build those skills, but the meta skill is now being able to step back and say, okay, in certain context it is really important that we move fast and we are decisive and we just do something.

Julie Zhuo：所以我试图培养这些技能，但元技能现在能够退后一步说，好吧，在某些情况下，我们快速行动、果断行动、只做某事非常重要。

And even if it's not perfect, we just kind of have to do it.

即使它并不完美，我们也必须这样做。

And if I struggle with that, I should realize that that's an area to improve upon.

如果我在这个问题上挣扎，我应该意识到这是一个需要改进的领域。

But there are other contexts in which the right thing to do is actually to take a step back and be very thoughtful and to not rush into decisions.

但在其他情况下，正确的做法实际上是退后一步，深思熟虑，不要急于做出决定。

Julie Zhuo: And that's so what I want to get to is not like let's reject this strength or this weakness, but just know that that's where we come from, that naturally, we might be wired in a particular way.

Julie Zhuo：所以我想要的不是让我们拒绝这种优势或劣势，而是知道我们来自哪里，自然地，我们可能以某种特定的方式连接。

Our growth often looks like getting better at doing the opposite, but not rejecting again the thing that we're good at, but rather over time getting to this balance where we can read the context and the situation and know, "Should I lean a little more thoughtful or is this a time where I need to try and be a little more decisive and just share what's on my mind right now?"

我们的成长往往看起来像是在做相反的事情上做得更好，但不会再次拒绝我们擅长的事情，而是随着时间的推移达到这种平衡，我们可以阅读背景和情况并知道，“我应该更加深思熟虑一点，还是现在我需要尝试更加果断一点，只是分享我现在的想法？”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice that things that we are incredible at and have a downside, and oftentimes the feedback we're getting is something we're not great at, there's a good version of that that people appreciate.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议，即我们令人难以置信的事情也有缺点，而且通常我们得到的反馈是我们不擅长的事情，有一个人们欣赏的好版本。

And I was going to ask you, and I think you answered most of this, but just when you got this feedback of, "Hey Julie, you're not speaking enough in these meetings, you're not contributing quickly enough," it sounds like, so one option is just like, "Okay, cool, that's me, that's how I am, and I'm just going to solve the problem this other way and then just not going to change anything." What I heard you say is, find opportunities where you want to actually change that behavior, even though it doesn't come naturally in specific situations where things are moving fast.

我本来想问你，我想你回答了大部分问题，但当你得到这样的反馈时，“嘿朱莉，你在这些会议上说得不够多，你贡献得不够快，”听起来像是，所以一个选择就是，“好吧，酷，这就是我，我就是这样，我只是用另一种方式解决问题，然后就不会改变任何东西。”我听到你说的是，找到你想要真正改变这种行为的机会，即使它在事情进展迅速的特定情况下不会自然而然地发生。

I guess just how far do you recommend people push themselves in things they're not great at, versus leaning further into their strength, let's say?

我想你会建议人们在自己不擅长的事情上推动自己走多远，而不是进一步发挥自己的优势，比方说？

Julie Zhuo: Oo, I think that's a really great question.

Julie Zhuo：哦，我认为这是一个很好的问题。

So the way I think about it is it's very dependent on what is your goal.

所以我的想法是，这很大程度上取决于你的目标是什么。

So for example, let's say that you are...

举例来说，假设您...

Julie Zhuo: ...

卓朱莉：……

on what is your goal?

你的目标是什么？

So for example, let's say that you are...

举例来说，假设您...

Let's even take, for example, ICs versus managers.

我们甚至以 IC 与管理器为例。

I think often about the pathway of an IC, an individual contributor, as wanting to deepen a craft.

我经常想到 IC（个人贡献者）的路径是想要深化一门手艺。

You love this thing and you just want to get better and better and better at this very specific skill or this craft, right?

你喜欢这个东西，你只是想在这个非常具体的技能或手艺上变得越来越好，对吧？

So think about in our dimension, infinite...

所以想想在我们的维度，无限......

It's like you pick a couple dimensions, "I just want these to be...

这就像你选择了几个维度，“我只是希望这些......

I want to be the top 0.01%," and that's kind of the pathway of extending it as an IC.

我想成为前 0.01%”，这就是将其扩展为 IC 的途径。

Now, if that's your high level goal and you're like, "I want to be able..." Let's say your high level goal is, "I want to be able to do this 10 hours a day because I love it and I want to be able to support myself doing it, meaning I get paid and I have a great job, and I want to have a bunch of impact in the world by doing this thing."

现在，如果这是你的高层次目标，而你会说，“我希望能够......”比方说，你的高层次目标是，“我希望能够每天做这件事 10 个小时，因为我喜欢它，我希望能够养活自己这样做，这意味着我得到报酬，我有一份很棒的工作，我希望通过做这件事对世界产生很大的影响。”

Julie Zhuo: So again, you still have goals.

Julie Zhuo：再说一遍，你还是有目标的。

Then you have to see, okay, "Does my strategy of just deepening these things, is there a pathway to reach my goals according to that?"

然后你必须看看，好吧，“我深化这些事情的策略是否有一条途径可以据此实现我的目标？”

Julie Zhuo: And if there is, awesome.

Julie Zhuo：如果有的话，那就太棒了。

Then if someone's like, "Hey, do you want to be a manager?"

然后，如果有人问：“嘿，你想成为一名经理吗？”

Julie Zhuo: You're like, "Nope, don't need to because these are my goals and this pathway actually allows me to do that."

Julie Zhuo：你会说，“不，不需要，因为这些是我的目标，而这条途径实际上允许我做到这一点。”

Julie Zhuo: But if somehow you get to a point where the skill you really want to perfect is not something that may be commercially viable in the world, that's going to somehow allow you to buy the big mansion that you want to buy to support your family, then I think you have to ask yourself, "Okay, so if I just do this, it's not going to cut it.

Julie Zhuo：但是如果你到了这样一个地步，你真正想要完善的技能并不是在世界上商业上可行的东西，这会以某种方式让你购买你想买的大宅子来养家糊口，那么我想你必须问自己，“好吧，所以如果我只是这样做，它不会削减它。

I might actually need to learn some of these other skills in order to be able to fulfill the job that is going to be valuable enough that people are going to pay me a bunch of money at this certain level so that I can afford my mansion."

我实际上可能需要学习一些其他技能，以便能够完成这份有价值的工作，人们会在一定水平上付给我一大笔钱，这样我就可以买得起我的豪宅了。”

Julie Zhuo: So I just think it has to go back to, what are your goals?

Julie Zhuo：所以我认为这必须回到你的目标是什么？

And there are cases in which yes, it'll support your goal to do this and to deepen your craft.

在某些情况下，是的，它会支持你实现这一目标并加深你的技艺。

And there are cases in which it won't.

但在某些情况下却不会。

And I think it's important, it's a very individual question for each person.

我认为这很重要，这对每个人来说都是一个非常个人的问题。

But what I often think suffering is, is when these things are not aligned.

但我经常认为痛苦是当这些事情不一致时。

So what you want is the giant mansion and all of that, but you're like, "But I also just want to spend on my time perfecting my egg omelet."

所以你想要的是巨大的豪宅和所有这些，但你会想，“但我也只是想花时间完善我的煎蛋卷。”

Julie Zhuo: And then, you're just in this tension place, and it's very hard to feel satisfied and fulfilled because you're a little bit like, "Oh, why doesn't the world value my deep egg omelet skills?"

Julie Zhuo：然后，你就处于这种紧张的状态，很难感到满足和成就感，因为你有点像，“哦，为什么这个世界不重视我深厚的煎蛋卷技能？”

Julie Zhuo: You can egg omelet, you should maybe not do this thing.

Julie Zhuo：你可以煎蛋卷，你也许不应该做这件事。

Or if you want this thing, you may actually need to be better at just egg omelets.

或者，如果你想要这个东西，你实际上可能需要在煎蛋卷方面做得更好。

Perhaps you need to expand your repertoire of cuisines, and go and build a Michelin star restaurant or something.

也许你需要扩大你的菜系，去建造一家米其林星级餐厅什么的。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is really good advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真是个好建议。

It's not just definitely always work on your weaknesses or don't worry about them, it's if you need to do this thing to achieve this goal that you have, make sure you understand what your goal is.

这不仅仅是要始终致力于克服自己的弱点或不要担心它们，而是如果您需要做这件事来实现您的目标，请确保您了解自己的目标是什么。

And then is this thing a thing you need to work on?

那么这件事是你需要做的事情吗？

For example, become a VP, you probably need to be really good in big important meetings, and being on the spot, and just not waiting until everything's over and then sharing an email of all your thoughts.

例如，成为一名副总裁，您可能需要在重要的大型会议中表现出色，并在现场，而不是等到一切结束后才通过电子邮件分享您的所有想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

For me, I actually went through a period where I was like, "I do not want to get promoted.

对我来说，我实际上经历过一段时期，我的想法是：“我不想升职。

I'm so happy in this very specific role, just leave me alone." And that path is very different from the skills I need to build to be a manager.

我对这个非常具体的角色感到非常高兴，别打扰我。”这条道路与我成为一名经理所需培养的技能非常不同。

And then things changed and then, okay, now these are the things I need to work on.

然后事情发生了变化，然后，好吧，现在这些就是我需要努力的事情。

Julie Zhuo: Yeah.

卓朱莉：是的。

I love that you knew that about yourself, because I think it's so easy for a young person to go into their career and everyone is telling them, maybe their whole family has been telling them, "You need to level up, you need to get paid more.

我喜欢你对自己的了解，因为我认为年轻人进入职业生涯很容易，每个人都在告诉他们，也许他们的整个家庭都在告诉他们，“你需要升级，你需要得到更多的薪水。

You need to get that manager title.

你需要获得经理头衔。

You need to get a VP."

你需要获得副总裁。”

Julie Zhuo: And at a certain point, I think sometimes people opt into this without knowing what they're actually signing up for.

Julie Zhuo：在某种程度上，我认为有时人们会在不知道他们实际注册的目的的情况下选择这样做。

What are the trade-offs?

有哪些权衡？

And is that really what you want to do?

这真的是你想做的吗？

Does that really align with your passions?

这真的符合你的热情吗？

And of course, sometimes we have to...

当然，有时我们必须...

Again, it's a compromise for us, but we get to design.

同样，这对我们来说是一种妥协，但我们可以进行设计。

We get to design what are goals and what's the right pathway.

我们要设计什么是目标以及什么是正确的途径。

And I go back to, usually when people are unhappy, it's because these things are a little bit out of sync.

我回想起来，通常当人们不高兴时，是因为这些事情有点不同步。

They want this big thing, but they're not actually excited about what it takes to do that thing, and therefore it's just going to be a mismatch.

他们想要这件大事，但他们实际上并不对做这件事情需要什么感到兴奋，因此这只是一种不匹配。

Lenny Rachitsky: And along those lines it sounds like, oh, sure, I can design my life and design my role.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，听起来，哦，当然，我可以设计我的生活和设计我的角色。

But what I find is if you at least first of all know what you'd love and ideally do, and then at least mention that to your manager, it often is a lot more possible than you think.

但我发现，如果你至少首先知道自己喜欢什么、理想做什么，然后至少向你的经理提及这一点，那么它的可能性往往比你想象的要大得多。

Julie Zhuo: A hundred percent.

卓朱莉：百分之一百。

I think it's so important to be...

我认为这是非常重要的...

We often also have this mental model like, "Oh, our managers are our judge, and they're going to judge me on whether or not I did well, I should get a promotion, I should be fired."

我们也经常有这样的心理模型，“哦，我们的经理是我们的评判者，他们会根据我是否表现出色来评判我，我应该升职，我应该被解雇。”

Julie Zhuo: So there's this sometimes fear that people have, but I think in the very best relationships, the manager is like a guide.

Julie Zhuo：所以人们有时会有这种恐惧，但我认为在最好的关系中，经理就像一个向导。

It's like, look, the manager has a job, and if you understand your manager's job, which is how to get better outcomes from the team, and also you understand what exactly would your manager consider success for the team, it also makes it easier for you to then be like, "Oh, well if I do this project, then that clearly seems like it's a very direct path to creating value for the team.

就像，看，经理有一份工作，如果你了解经理的工作，即如何从团队中获得更好的结果，并且你也了解你的经理到底认为团队的成功是什么，这也会让你更容易说，“哦，如果我做这个项目，那么这显然是为团队创造价值的一条非常直接的途径。

And that also is a kind of project that suits my skills.

这也是一个适合我技能的项目。

It's something I'm excited about." You should suggest that to your manager.

这是我感到兴奋的事情。”您应该向您的经理提出这一建议。

Julie Zhuo: But the other is true, right?

卓朱莉：但另一个是真的，对吧？

So you would know that if you actually asked your manager, "What is your job and what do you consider success to be, and what is your greatest hopes and dreams?"

所以，如果你真的问你的经理，“你的工作是什么，你认为成功是什么，你最大的希望和梦想是什么？”，你就会知道。

Julie Zhuo: And then you might be able to help your own career and yourself because you would know that context.

Julie Zhuo：然后你也许能够帮助你自己的事业和你自己，因为你会了解那个背景。

And conversely, if you say, "Hey, manager, these are my hopes and dreams.

相反，如果你说：“嘿，经理，这些是我的希望和梦想。

This is what I think I'm good at.

这就是我认为我擅长的。

I really want to get better at this skill.

我真的很想提高这项技能。

I really want to get that VP promotion, but I don't know what it entails.

我真的很想晋升副总裁，但我不知道这意味着什么。

Can you tell me, what does it take?"

你能告诉我，需要什么吗？”

Julie Zhuo: That's a really wonderful conversation as well because then you'll get all of that context, and then you can actually decide whether you want to do it or not.

Julie Zhuo：这也是一次非常精彩的对话，因为这样你就会了解所有的背景信息，然后你就可以真正决定是否要这样做。

And if you want to, then ask your manager for help, "Okay, if you see opportunities that are going to help me become a better presenter or increase my communication, please tell me." Even better, "If you have feedback for me about communication, I want to hear it, because that's what's going to help me grow in this particular skill."

如果您愿意，请向您的经理寻求帮助，“好吧，如果您看到可以帮助我成为更好的演示者或增加我的沟通的机会，请告诉我。”更好的是，“如果你对我有关于沟通的反馈，我想听听，因为这将帮助我发展这项特殊技能。”

Julie Zhuo: And so, it becomes this collaborative relationship much more so than this almost adversarial, like I'm trying to get you to give me a promotion, and you're trying to get me to work harder.

Julie Zhuo：所以，这种合作关系比这种近乎对抗的关系更重要，就像我试图让你给我升职，而你试图让我更加努力地工作。

That is not a very good vibe.

这不是一个很好的氛围。

Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me of a guest post by Ethan Evans that I'll link to that has a really good framework for how to actually do exactly what you're talking about called, The Magic Loop, where it's kind of a framework for figuring out what to work on and how to help your manager see you're capable of stuff and earn that trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了 Ethan Evans 的一篇客座文章，我将链接到该文章，其中有一个非常好的框架，用于指导如何真正完成您所说的事情，称为“神奇循环”，它是一个框架，用于确定要做什么以及如何帮助您的经理看到您有能力完成工作并赢得信任。

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PostHog 提供的所有内容都附带慷慨的免费套餐，每月都会重置。

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您会看到工程师针对您的问题提出拉取请求，并且当事情变得棘手时，他们的支持团队会提供代码级帮助。

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Lenny Rachitsky：除了分析事件之外，他们的数据仓库还使您能够同步来自 Postgres 数据库、Stripe、HubSpot、S3 和更多来源的数据。

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立即在 PostHog.com/Lenny 上免费注册，并确保告诉他们是 Lenny 派您来的。

That's PostHog.com/Lenny.

这是 PostHog.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: So along the lines of timeless manager, especially new manager advice, you've shared a bunch.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着永恒的经理人的思路，尤其是新经理人的建议，你分享了很多。

Is there anything else that you think is really important, really interesting, valuable?

还有什么是你认为真正重要、真正有趣、有价值的吗？

Julie Zhuo: Feedback is one of the other topics that I am super, duper passionate about.

Julie Zhuo：反馈是我非常热衷的其他话题之一。

And my general impression for both myself, everyone I've worked with, is that we don't value feedback enough or we don't think about it enough.

我对我自己以及与我共事过的每个人的总体印象是，我们对反馈的重视程度不够，或者我们对反馈的思考不够。

Again, companies have these performance cycles, and so we're all like, yes, every six months we're going to go and do these reviews.

同样，公司有这些绩效周期，所以我们都喜欢，是的，每六个月我们就会去进行这些审查。

That's when I'll get feedback.

到时候我就会得到反馈。

But feedback really, in my mind, ideally, should be a daily practice.

但在我看来，理想情况下，反馈实际上应该是一种日常实践。

Because the thing that matters for us in the long run as a team is how quickly are we getting better?

因为从长远来看，作为一个团队，对我们来说最重要的是我们进步的速度有多快？

So a team that just gets 1% better every week compared to a team that gets 1% better a month, even if they start off at a much lower baseline, is going to outperform in a very short amount of time the team that doesn't get better.

因此，与每月进步 1% 的团队相比，每周只进步 1% 的团队即使一开始的基线要低得多，也会在很短的时间内超越没有进步的团队。

Julie Zhuo: And so, what is the best tool for us to get better?

Julie Zhuo：那么，让我们变得更好的最佳工具是什么？

It is feedback.

这是反馈。

And what I think about in feedback, it's very similar to what we said earlier about data metrics.

我对反馈的看法与我们之前所说的数据指标非常相似。

It's essentially trying to put your hypotheses and test them against reality.

它本质上是试图提出你的假设并用现实来检验它们。

So as an example, maybe I have this perception right now that I am a positive and engaging speaker.

举个例子，也许我现在有这样的看法：我是一个积极且有吸引力的演讲者。

So, I have this sense that I'm smiling and I'm very engaging, and I'm telling great stories, but is that really true?

所以，我有一种感觉，我在微笑，我非常有吸引力，我在讲很棒的故事，但这是真的吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

The reality is that I'm often biased, and we know these psychological effects where sometimes the Dunning-Kruger effect, people think they're way more expert at something than they actually are.

现实是，我经常有偏见，我们知道这些心理效应，有时是邓宁-克鲁格效应，人们认为自己在某件事上比实际更专业。

You ask people, "Hey, are you a better than average driver?"

你问人们：“嘿，你比一般司机好吗？”

Julie Zhuo: And it's like 70 or 80% of people, "Yes, I'm better than average."

Julie Zhuo：大约 70% 或 80% 的人会说：“是的，我比平均水平要好。”

Julie Zhuo: How could that possibly be?

卓朱莉：怎么可能？

We have biases.

我们有偏见。

And imposter syndrome is a bias on the other side, it's like me feeling, "Oh, I suck.

另一方面，冒名顶替综合症是一种偏见，就像我的感觉，“哦，我很糟糕。

I don't actually belong here." Whereas, that also is a bias.

我实际上不属于这里。”然而，这也是一种偏见。

It may not actually be true.

实际上可能并非如此。

In fact, I might very well be here and other people value my contribution.

事实上，我很可能在这里并且其他人重视我的贡献。

Julie Zhuo: So we are just wildly out of sync a lot of times in our perceptions of ourselves, our strengths, our weaknesses, what's going on.

Julie Zhuo：所以很多时候我们对自己、我们的优势、我们的劣势以及正在发生的事情的看法完全不一致。

And the way that we're going to understand and truly get better is we need other people to reflect back what is actually their truth.

我们要理解并真正变得更好的方式是我们需要其他人反思他们的真相。

And the way I think about it is like, I'm going to ask you for feedback after this podcast episode and you're going to tell me something.

我的想法是，在播客节目结束后我会向你征求反馈，你会告诉我一些事情。

And what you're going to do is you're going to give me a gift.

你要做的就是给我一份礼物。

Because it'll be a gift of reflecting something back of what you see that I can't see.

因为这将是一种礼物，能够反射出你所看到但我看不到的东西。

Just like if I have a leaf in the back of my head, I can't see that.

就像如果我的后脑勺有一片叶子，我就看不到它一样。

And so if you're telling me, "Hey, Julie, you have a leaf."

所以如果你告诉我，“嘿，朱莉，你有一片叶子。”

Julie Zhuo: "Oh, wow, thank you." Okay, maybe I can get rid of the leaf or whatnot.

朱莉·卓：“噢，哇，谢谢你。”好吧，也许我可以去掉那片叶子之类的东西。

But that is what feedback is.

但这就是反馈。

It is essentially reflection back.

它本质上是反射回来。

It helps us calibrate to reality, and it allows me to get this information about whether or not I'm moving in the direction of my goals.

它帮助我们适应现实，并且让我能够获得有关我是否正在朝着目标方向前进的信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I completely agree.

我完全同意。

The challenge for most people, as you know, is giving feedback that people receive and don't feel defensive about, and then receiving feedback and not being like, "Oh, no, they don't know.

如您所知，大多数人面临的挑战是提供人们收到的反馈并且不会感到防御，然后收到反馈而不是说，“哦，不，他们不知道。

They don't know anything.

他们什么都不知道。

How dare they say this about me?"

他们怎么敢这么说我？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Could you give us maybe a tip or two for delivering feedback well and for receiving feedback well?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能给我们提供一两个关于如何更好地提供反馈和如何更好地接收反馈的建议吗？

And maybe even just seeking, how do you get more feedback?

也许只是寻求，如何获得更多反馈？

This all makes a lot of sense.

这一切都很有道理。

Most of the time people don't get any feedback.

大多数时候人们得不到任何反馈。

Julie Zhuo: The best way...

卓朱莉：最好的办法...

The first tip on getting feedback or delivering hard feedback is first go and actually establish that our relationship is one in which we value each other's contribution, we want to help each other grow, and therefore we're going to be the kind of people that want to give feedback to each other every week.

关于获得反馈或提供硬性反馈的第一个技巧是，首先要真正建立起我们的关系，我们重视彼此的贡献，我们希望帮助彼此成长，因此我们将成为那种每周都想互相提供反馈的人。

So when you first start working with someone, don't wait until something bad has happened given feedback, because that's already a pressurized situation.

因此，当你第一次开始与某人合作时，不要等到发生不好的事情才给出反馈，因为这已经是一种压力很大的情况。

Start by saying, "Hey, really excited to work with you.

首先说：“嘿，很高兴与您合作。

I feel like our best collaboration is I want you to help me get better.

我觉得我们最好的合作是我希望你帮助我变得更好。

I think I'm good at this stuff.

我想我很擅长这件事。

I'm not so good at this stuff.

我不太擅长这些东西。

What about you?

你呢？

Okay, you think you're good at this stuff?

好吧，你认为你擅长这件事吗？

How about we just work together and we just help each other get better at these things?

我们一起工作，互相帮助，在这些事情上做得更好怎么样？

And the way we're going to do that is, all feedback is open.

我们要做的方式是，所有反馈都是公开的。

I want you to tell me everything.

我要你告诉我一切。

Ideally, you're going to then say, 'Yeah, I want you to tell me everything.'" And we've already established that.

理想情况下，你会说，‘是的，我希望你告诉我一切。’”我们已经确定了这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is colleagues or manager or all colleagues?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是同事、经理还是所有同事？

Julie Zhuo: It's like everyone.

卓朱莉：每个人都一样。

It's like people you're dating, it's like your children.

这就像你约会的人，就像你的孩子。

It can be with everyone, just establishing what kind of relationship do we want to have?

可以和每个人都可以，只是建立我们想要建立什么样的关系？

I think most people want to opt into a relationship where you can be close, you can be tight with one another.

我认为大多数人都希望选择一种可以亲密、彼此紧密的关系。

You can say things to one another and not have to hide behind...

你们可以互相倾诉，不必躲在后面……

I think most people will opt into it, and if you opt into it, everything gets easier down the road.

我认为大多数人都会选择它，如果你选择它，以后一切都会变得更容易。

So the first thing is get everyone to opt in that this is the kind of relationship that we want to have.

因此，第一件事是让每个人都选择这就是我们想要拥有的关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: One trickle throughout that I've heard that worked really well along these same lines is asking people, "Do you prefer feedback in the moment or do you prefer it kind of every month or every week or something like that?"

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说有一个非常有效的方法，就是问人们：“你更喜欢当下的反馈，还是更喜欢每个月、每周或类似的反馈？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And everyone's like, "No, no in the moment and just tell me as soon as something happens."

Lenny Rachitsky：每个人都会说，“不，现在不，一旦有事情发生就告诉我。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And then that gives you that freedom to just, " Okay, yeah, let me give you feedback here."

Lenny Rachitsky：然后这给了你自由，“好吧，是的，让我在这里给你反馈。”

Julie Zhuo: So if you get people to opt in, "Yes, I want us to have a great relationship.

Julie Zhuo：所以如果你让人们选择加入，“是的，我希望我们能建立良好的关系。

I want us to help each other get better.

我希望我们能够互相帮助，让彼此变得更好。

I want feedback." That's 60% of the hard part of delivering difficult feedback later on.

我想要反馈。”这是稍后提供困难反馈的 60% 的困难部分。

Julie Zhuo: Then the second tactic I will say is that when you actually give the feedback, it helps a lot.

Julie Zhuo：那么我要说的第二个策略是，当你真正给出反馈时，它会很有帮助。

First, you have to check, "Am I actually giving this feedback because it's in the spirit of trying to help one another?" And if the answer is yes, then we've moved from 60% to 80%, it's going to go well.

首先，你必须检查一下，“我实际上给出这个反馈是因为它本着互相帮助的精神吗？”如果答案是肯定的，那么我们就从 60% 提高到 80%，一切都会进展顺利。

Julie Zhuo: But what can often happen is something happens.

卓朱莉：但经常发生的事情就是发生了。

You do something, it triggers me, because I don't know, I had a bad experience about that type of thing before.

你做某事，它会触发我，因为我不知道，我以前对这类事情有过不好的经历。

And so, I'm kind of feeling mad and I want to be right.

所以，我有点生气，但我想是对的。

If my real rationale for why I want to give you feedback is I want to validate myself, I want to be right, I want to tell you you're wrong, I want to punish you, it's not going to go well.

如果我想给你反馈的真正原因是我想验证自己，我想是对的，我想告诉你你错了，我想惩罚你，那么事情就不会顺利。

It's just already there.

它已经在那里了。

There's no way you can deliver it, unless you're a tremendous actor.

除非你是一位出色的演员，否则你不可能做到这一点。

It's just not going to go well.

只是事情不会顺利。

So you have to first check your intention.

所以你必须首先检查你的意图。

Julie Zhuo: But if you've done that, you're like, "No, no, no. I thought about it.

Julie Zhuo：但如果你这么做了，你就会说，“不，不，不。我考虑过。

I'm calm now.

我现在很平静。

I'm not seeing red.

我没看到红色。

I really think that Lenny is just not aware that when he says this, it makes me and other people feel left out," or whatever it is, right?

我真的认为莱尼只是没有意识到，当他这么说时，会让我和其他人感到被忽视，”或者不管是什么，对吧？

Then I need to be able to give it to you.

然后我需要能够把它给你。

Julie Zhuo: And so usually then if you're like, "Okay, now I might be nervous because I don't want to offend you.

Julie Zhuo：通常情况下，如果你会说，“好吧，现在我可能会紧张，因为我不想冒犯你。

I really value our relationship.

我真的很珍惜我们的关系。

How am I going to tell you.

我要怎么告诉你呢。

I don't want you to get defensive?"

我不想让你防守？”

Julie Zhuo: Then the third tactic is, just say that out loud.

Julie Zhuo：那么第三个策略就是，大声说出来。

If I sit down with you and I say, "Lenny, I'm so nervous right now.

如果我坐下来和你说：“莱尼，我现在很紧张。

I want to give you some feedback and I'm really worried that it's going to impact our relationship, and I so value our relationship and I don't want that to happen.

我想给你一些反馈，我真的很担心这会影响我们的关系，我非常重视我们的关系，我不希望这种情况发生。

But I also feel like it's just going to help you to hear it if you can."

但我也觉得如果可以的话，这只会帮助你听到它。”

Julie Zhuo: That does so much of the work of...

Julie Zhuo：这完成了很多工作......

It's humanizing.

这很人性化。

You're going to realize that I'm going out on the limb, I'm being really vulnerable, and likely you're going to hear that so much more than if I just find a way to drop it, just lobby it over because it's so difficult.

你会意识到我已经陷入困境，我真的很脆弱，而且很可能你会听到更多这样的话，而不是我只是想办法放弃它，只是游说它，因为它是如此困难。

Just actually lean into the fact that it is difficult and expose that because that builds a lot of human connection.

实际上，要承认这很困难，并揭露这一事实，因为这可以建立很多人与人之间的联系。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is amazing advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。

Very tactical.

很有战术性。

Okay, is there anything else?

好的，还有其他事吗？

So we've talked about a bunch of timeless pieces of manager wisdom, things that people need to hear, especially as new managers.

因此，我们讨论了一系列永恒的经理智慧，人们需要听到的东西，尤其是作为新经理。

Is there anything else that you think is really important that you think people are just not fully grokking for being great managers?

还有什么是你认为真正重要但人们还没有完全成为优秀管理者的吗？

Julie Zhuo: I think the idea of win-win, I think about that all the time in my mind.

卓朱莉：我认为双赢的理念，我一直在脑子里思考。

And I go back to it, because I think that often we have the story in our heads that sometimes things are adversarial.

我回到这个话题，因为我认为我们脑子里经常有这样的故事：有时事情是敌对的。

As a manager, I'm trying to get people to be more productive, so I'm trying to get them to do a thing that maybe they don't want to do.

作为一名经理，我试图让人们提高工作效率，所以我试图让他们做一些他们可能不想做的事情。

I'm going to try and get them to work harder or I'm going to somehow put more pressure on them.

我会努力让他们更加努力地工作，或者我会以某种方式给他们施加更大的压力。

If you start thinking like that, that's not a win-win way to be thinking, right?

如果你开始这样思考，那就不是双赢的思考方式，对吧？

That's like you saying, "My getting better outcomes has to come at the expense of somebody else losing something."

这就像你说的，“我获得更好的结果必须以别人失去一些东西为代价。”

Julie Zhuo: And I think if you start thinking like that, it's very difficult to come up with a strategy or to truly be successful.

Julie Zhuo：我认为如果你开始这样思考，就很难制定策略或真正取得成功。

But if you say, "Look, actually, my job is to figure out how to create win-wins." So I actually don't want somebody over the long run to feel like what I've done is just create a ton of pressure for them and now they're super burnt out, real quick, because that's not good for our team, that's not good for me, that's not good for our long-term relationship.

但如果你说：“事实上，我的工作就是弄清楚如何创造双赢。”所以，从长远来看，我实际上不希望有人觉得我所做的只是给他们带来了巨大的压力，现在他们很快就精疲力尽了，因为这对我们的团队不利，对我不利，对我们的长期关系不利。

How do we find the solution that can be a win-win?

如何找到双赢的解决方案？

And I think if you think like that, a lot of things get easier.

我想如果你这样想的话，很多事情都会变得更容易。

So for example, with new managers, I think this is true for me, too, the first time I had to tell someone that they shouldn't be a part of this team was extremely fraught for me.

例如，对于新经理，我认为这对我来说也是如此，第一次我不得不告诉某人他们不应该成为这个团队的一部分时，我感到非常担忧。

And the main reason was because I'm putting myself in their shoes, and I'm imagining that this is truly horrible, and I've just done a huge disservice to this person, and that's the most awful thing.

主要原因是因为我设身处地为他们着想，我想象这真的很可怕，我刚刚对这个人造成了巨大的伤害，这是最可怕的事情。

Julie Zhuo: But there's another way to look at it, which is, hey, if there's persons on the team, they probably want to be successful.

Julie Zhuo：但是还有另一种看待它的方式，那就是，嘿，如果团队里有人，他们可能希望成功。

They want to do great work, they want to be valued, they want to grow their career.

他们想要做出伟大的工作，他们想要受到重视，他们想要发展自己的职业生涯。

If this is not the place for them, because it doesn't align with their true interests and the things that are going to help them be successful is just not the thing that they either want to do or can do at this point, it doesn't do that person any good for me to somehow try to continue to make it.

如果这不是他们适合的地方，因为这不符合他们的真正兴趣，而且那些能帮助他们成功的事情并不是他们现在想做或能做的事情，那么我继续努力对那个人来说没有任何好处。

It's actually going to be miserable.

其实会很惨。

I'm going back to prolonging that misery state.

我要回去延长那种痛苦的状态。

Julie Zhuo: And so, sometimes a win-win thing is to just say, "Look, it's not working, and I respect and value you so much that I know you want to do something that you can be proud of and you can grow in, and that's going to be really valued.

朱莉·卓：所以，有时双赢的事情就是说，“听着，这行不通，我非常尊重和重视你，我知道你想做一些让你感到自豪、可以成长的事情，这将是真正有价值的。

And right here, what we got, this isn't it."

而就在这里，我们得到的，不是这个。”

Julie Zhuo: That's like a win-win way of looking at the situation, not a like, "Oh, my firing them is just definitely going to be a horrible..."

Julie Zhuo：这就像是一种双赢的看待形势的方式，而不是“哦，我解雇他们肯定会是一个可怕的......”

Julie Zhuo: I'm not trying to say it's not going to be hard, obviously it's hard, but it's in the mentality and the mental model I think makes all the difference.

Julie Zhuo：我并不是想说这不会很难，显然这很难，但我认为心态和心智模式才是最重要的。

Because it's going to be different in the way that I convey it to them.

因为我向他们传达的方式会有所不同。

It's going to be different and why this actually in the grander scheme of things may be great, and it's going to reduce this adversarial feeling where they're now going to see me as an enemy or somebody with all this power who's making choices that impact them and they feel powerless.

这将会是不同的，为什么这实际上在更宏伟的计划中可能是伟大的，并且它将减少这种敌对感，他们现在将把我视为敌人或拥有如此权力的人，做出影响他们的选择，而他们感到无能为力。

It has to be a collaboration.

这必须是一种合作。

And I think if it's not win-win...

我认为如果这不是双赢......

And I could be wrong.

我可能是错的。

I would say I don't think it's right.

我想说我认为这是不对的。

The person could actually say, "No, you're wrong." And that would actually be great information, because then maybe we can go back and we can find a way to make it win-win.

这个人实际上可以说：“不，你错了。”这实际上是很好的信息，因为也许我们可以回去，找到一种双赢的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was just going to say, they have to believe this.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我只是想说，他们必须相信这一点。

You can't just make it sound like this, "Here's the win you're getting let go.

你不能只是说这样的话：“这就是你要放弃的胜利。

It's a huge win for you." But in reality, the way you phrased it, it is actually almost always true, "This is just not a place that you'll be happy and succeed at, and it's better you go do something else."

这对你来说是一个巨大的胜利。”但实际上，按照你的措辞方式，几乎总是正确的，“这不是一个让你感到快乐和成功的地方，你最好去做点别的事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I'm going to keep fishing in this pool to see what else we got, but when we run out, let me know.

我将继续在这个池子里钓鱼，看看我们还能得到什么，但当我们用完时，请告诉我。

Is there anything else that you think people should know, should hear, especially new managers that they're still not fully getting?

您认为人们还应该知道、应该听到什么，尤其是他们还没有完全了解的新经理？

Julie Zhuo: I think being aware of your own energy and conviction is really, really important.

Julie Zhuo：我认为意识到自己的能量和信念真的非常非常重要。

So a lot of these themes, as you can see, go back to, you have to first understand this about yourself and have the right mindset, and when you do, it becomes much easier to be able to be impactful with other people.

因此，正如您所看到的，很多这些主题回到过去，您必须首先了解自己并拥有正确的心态，当您这样做时，能够对其他人产生影响就变得更加容易。

So this is another one.

所以这是另一件事。

I think it's very difficult for managers to be able...

我认为管理者很难...

We talked a lot about the three pillars of what are the major tools of a manager.

我们讨论了很多关于管理者主要工具的三大支柱。

The first is people.

首先是人。

And so, we talked a lot about the importance of dimensionality and feedback and helping reflect and grow people.

因此，我们讨论了很多维度和反馈以及帮助反思和成长的重要性。

Julie Zhuo: I think the second one is around purpose.

卓朱莉：我认为第二个是围绕目的。

Purpose is like, "What are we here to do?

目的就像是“我们来这里做什么？

What's our North Star?"

我们的北极星是什么？”

Julie Zhuo: And I think it's very hard to actually convey that if you don't have conviction yourself.

Julie Zhuo：我认为如果你自己没有信念，就很难真正传达这一点。

And so watching your conviction is really important, particularly since a lot of people who are managers, you often start out not as the founder of the CEO of the company, but you might be a middle manager.

因此，观察你的信念非常重要，特别是因为很多管理者，你一开始往往不是公司首席执行官的创始人，而是中层管理者。

So in some ways, you didn't create the vision, but you are in some ways expected to execute it or take a piece of it and do it.

因此，在某些方面，您没有创造愿景，但在某些方面，您应该执行它或采取其中的一部分并做到这一点。

And I find that sometimes what new managers don't pay attention to enough is what is their true belief.

我发现有时新管理者没有足够关注他们真正的信念是什么。

They feel like they might have to be a soldier, so they just get orders and they have to execute it.

他们觉得自己可能必须成为一名士兵，所以他们只是接到命令，然后必须执行。

But it really makes a difference if they themselves have gone through the work of thinking through, "Wait, why are we doing this?

但如果他们自己认真思考“等等，我们为什么要这样做？

Do I believe this strategy?

我相信这个策略吗？

Does it make sense or not?"

到底有没有道理？”

Julie Zhuo: And if it doesn't make sense, to go and actually have the conversation with their manager or whoever else, just so they can get to alignment on, "I really believe in what I'm doing."

Julie Zhuo：如果没有意义，可以去与他们的经理或其他人进行实际对话，这样他们就可以达成一致，“我真的相信我正在做的事情。”

Julie Zhuo: Because if you don't really believe in what you're doing or you're just parroting the thing that got passed through the organization, it's very hard for you to then be able to help other people see what that magic is or to be actually really effective as a person who can hold that vision and that purpose.

Julie Zhuo：因为如果你并不真正相信自己正在做的事情，或者你只是人云亦云，那么你就很难帮助其他人了解这种魔力是什么，或者作为一个能够持有这种愿景和目标的人真正发挥作用。

So I just think you have to really check in with yourself on like, "Wait, I know we're told to do this and this is what we have to do, but how do we really feel about it?"

所以我认为你必须真正检查一下自己，“等等，我知道我们被告知要这样做，这是我们必须做的，但是我们对此有何真实感受？”

Julie Zhuo: Because if you don't feel good about it, then it's not going to be very likely that the project's going to succeed.

Julie Zhuo：因为如果你感觉不好，那么这个项目就不太可能成功。

I can tell you right now, every single manager I've ever managed where they're like, "I don't really think this is a good idea," there's no case where I can think of where the project somehow turned out to be wildly successful.

我现在可以告诉你，我管理过的每一位经理都会说，“我真的不认为这是一个好主意”，我无法想象这个项目在哪里取得了巨大的成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such a classic challenge of managers, is getting things done that you don't really agree with.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是管理者面临的一个典型挑战，就是完成你并不真正同意的事情。

And I can't help but ask you for advice on someone that isn't in that place of just, "Okay, we have this feature our CEO's prioritizing.

我情不自禁地向你寻求建议，而那些人则不会只是说：“好吧，我们的首席执行官优先考虑了这个功能。

This is not a good idea, but I need to have a brave face and not make it sound like I'm just being told what to do and I'm just reporting orders.

这不是一个好主意，但我需要勇敢地面对，不要让自己听起来像是我只是被告知要做什么，我只是在报告命令。

I don't believe in this." You don't want to do that.

我不相信这个。”你不想那样做。

You become a terrible unsuccessful manager and people lose trust in you.

你成为了一个糟糕的、不成功的经理，人们对你失去了信任。

What's your advice to folks that are in that place of just how to find that balance?

对于处于这种境地的人们如何找到这种平衡，您有什么建议？

Julie Zhuo: So I think, first, if you feel that way, you got to actually find a way to get it out and engage in dialogue.

Julie Zhuo：所以我认为，首先，如果你有这种感觉，你必须真正找到一种方法来表达它并进行对话。

So if you're like, "My manager told me to do this, I think it's a terrible idea," you've got to talk to your manager about it or you've got to talk to the CEO or whoever and feel...

因此，如果你想，“我的经理告诉我这样做，我认为这是一个糟糕的主意”，你必须与你的经理讨论这件事，或者你必须与首席执行官或任何人交谈并感觉......

Because once you engage in a dialogue, what will often happen is you'll learn more, you'll have new information, you'll have new assumptions, and maybe you'll have influenced a project in some manner.

因为一旦你参与对话，通常会发生的事情是你会学到更多，你会得到新的信息，你会有新的假设，也许你会以某种方式影响一个项目。

But often, the more you can learn about, "Okay, why did some other smart people feel like we should do this?

但通常情况下，你可以了解得越多，“好吧，为什么其他一些聪明人觉得我们应该这样做？

And what parts of it do I believe and what parts am I more skeptical about?"

我相信其中的哪些部分，我更怀疑哪些部分？”

Julie Zhuo: You can probably decompose it from a blanket it's good or bad to like, "Okay, this is a hypothesis, this is a hypothesis, this is a hypothesis.

卓朱莉：你大概可以从一条毯子来分解它好坏，“好吧，这是一个假设，这是一个假设，这是一个假设。

I might kind of believe this one.

我可能有点相信这一点。

The reason I don't like the proposal, I don't believe this particular hypothesis, but I believe these other ones."

我不喜欢这个提议的原因是，我不相信这个特定的假设，但我相信其他的假设。”

Julie Zhuo: And so, when you can start to get one level deeper into breaking it down into a set of assumptions, that makes it much easier, because then likely find something that you do kind of resonate with.

Julie Zhuo：所以，当你可以开始更深入地将其分解为一组假设时，事情就会变得容易得多，因为这样很可能会发现一些与你产生共鸣的东西。

And you might be able to then steer things like, "Okay, if that hypothesis doesn't...

然后你也许可以引导这样的事情，“好吧，如果这个假设不......

I believe in disagree and commit, but now we can be very specific.

我相信不同意和承诺，但现在我们可以非常具体。

We can isolate the thing that..."

我们可以隔离那个东西……”

Julie Zhuo: And what we can also often do is like, "Okay, the reason I didn't like this proposal is because I believe that this assumption is wrong."

Julie Zhuo：我们也经常可以做的是，“好吧，我不喜欢这个提案的原因是因为我认为这个假设是错误的。”

Julie Zhuo: I'm going to come up with a really stupid example.

Julie Zhuo：我想举一个非常愚蠢的例子。

But your suggestion is, "I know we have a great idea.

但你的建议是：“我知道我们有一个好主意。

We're going to go and put a lemonade stand on every block.

我们要去每个街区都摆一个柠檬水摊。

And my core assumption is people do not like lemonade.

我的核心假设是人们不喜欢柠檬水。

That's not the hot beverage right now.

那不是现在的热饮。

And so therefore, I think this is a stupid plan."

因此，我认为这是一个愚蠢的计划。”

Julie Zhuo: But if I talk to you about it and you're like, "No, no, this is the core assumption we disagree on."

Julie Zhuo：但如果我和你谈论这个问题，你会说，“不，不，这是我们不同意的核心假设。”

Julie Zhuo: Likely what starts to unfold is like, "Well, can we get some data?

Julie Zhuo：接下来的情况很可能是这样的：“好吧，我们可以获得一些数据吗？

Can we get some information?

我们能得到一些信息吗？

Is there a quicker way to validate whether people like lemonade?

有没有更快的方法来验证人们是否喜欢柠檬水？

Perhaps we should just test it in one market before we go and open up the lemonade stands across the entire 50 states."

也许我们应该先在一个市场进行测试，然后再在整个 50 个州开设柠檬水摊位。”

Julie Zhuo: And so what happens is we can likely get to the actual specific area and come up with something.

Julie Zhuo：所以我们很可能可以到达实际的特定领域并提出一些建议。

And then, if I have to now share with my team, We're going to try this hypothesis.

然后，如果我现在必须与我的团队分享，我们将尝试这个假设。

I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I actually do think...

我不确定我的感受如何，但我确实认为...

I don't know for sure and our CEO seems to think this is...

我不确定，我们的首席执行官似乎认为这是......

But we're just going to test it."

但我们只是要测试一下。”

Julie Zhuo: For sure, and our CEO seems to think this is...

Julie Zhuo：当然，我们的首席执行官似乎认为这是......

But we're just going to test it, and we're going to do the test in a way where...

但我们只是要测试它，我们将以某种方式进行测试......

That's what we want to find out, is do 18 to 25-year-olds love lemonade if we put them on these neighborhood college campuses?

这就是我们想知道的，如果我们把 18 到 25 岁的人放在附近的大学校园里，他们会喜欢柠檬水吗？

It becomes very specific and everyone's like, "Well, yeah, I don't know for sure, but I'm happy to go in, and test that, and commit to it."

它变得非常具体，每个人都会说，“嗯，是的，我不确定，但我很高兴参与其中，进行测试，并致力于它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such a good advice, and there's also, you could layer on, "Here's the things I do agree with and believe.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议，而且你还可以进一步说，“这是我确实同意和相信的事情。

Here's the ways that I see this as totally right.

以下是我认为这是完全正确的方法。

Here's the piece that I'm not so sure about, but that's why we're going to run this test, and here's why it's the smallest version of this test and why it's a great idea just to figure it out." We'll show them.

这是我不太确定的部分，但这就是为什么我们要运行这个测试，这就是为什么它是这个测试的最小版本，以及为什么弄清楚它是一个好主意。”我们将向他们展示。

You probably don't want to say that.

你可能不想这么说。

As you give this answer, it's so interesting, I almost want to do a whole new episode with you later of just common conundrums managers have, challenges that every manager runs into that are really difficult to figure out on the spot.

当你给出这个答案时，它非常有趣，我几乎想稍后与你一起制作一个全新的剧集，讲述经理们遇到的常见难题，每个经理都会遇到的挑战，这些挑战很难当场解决。

We could save that for the future.

我们可以把它留到将来使用。

Okay, I'm going to take us to a couple of recurring themes on this podcast, occasional recurring that every episode corners that we take guests to.

好的，我将带我们了解这个播客中的几个重复出现的主题，偶尔会重复出现我们带客人去的每一集角落。

Lenny Rachitsky: The first is I want to take us to AI corner.

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个是我想带我们去人工智能角落。

What I like to do in AI corner is ask, what's a way that you've figured out to use AI in your work or your life that's just really interesting, really useful?

我喜欢在人工智能角做的是问，你想出了什么在你的工作或生活中使用人工智能的真正有趣、真正有用的方法？

Julie Zhuo: Well, I already shared a lot about education and learning, but I'll share maybe a more fun story.

Julie Zhuo：嗯，我已经分享了很多关于教育和学习的内容，但我可能会分享一个更有趣的故事。

It's my kid's birthdays.

这是我孩子的生日。

One of them just passed.

其中一位刚刚过去。

My middle son's birthday is in two weeks and my daughter's birthday is in a month.

两周后是我二儿子的生日，一个月后是我女儿的生日。

Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, the birthday just passed.

Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，生日刚刚过去。

The kid didn't pass.

孩子没有通过。

Julie Zhuo: Okay.

卓朱莉：好的。

Yes, the birthday passed.

是的，生日过去了。

Julie Zhuo: That's right, that's right.

卓朱莉：对对对。

The birthday passed, my kid's birthday.

生日过去了，我孩子的生日。

One of my goals this year was to try and build them something, so give them a present that has me going back to being the IC and making something for them.

我今年的目标之一是尝试为他们打造一些东西，所以给他们一份礼物，让我回到 IC 并为他们做一些东西。

AI makes this really fun, and so just from my youngest son who was six years old, this is an idea that I stole from Eric Antonow, if you know Eric.

人工智能让这一切变得非常有趣，所以这是我从我六岁的小儿子那里偷来的一个想法，如果你认识埃里克·安托诺的话。

Have you had him on your podcast?

你的播客上有他吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I haven't, I am trying to.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还没有，我正在努力。

He actually sent me the...

他真的给我发了...

What is it?

它是什么？

The-

该-

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like instead of holding the phone in your pocket, you hold this thing, and then you walk around with it and everyone's like, "What the hell is that?" Methaphone.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就像你不是把手机放在口袋里，而是拿着这个东西，然后你带着它走来走去，每个人都会说，“那到底是什么？”马塔风。

Julie Zhuo: Yeah.

卓朱莉：是的。

I, too, am the proud owner of a methaphone and the next version upgrades with the little stickers, but-

我也很自豪拥有一个安乐风，并且下一个版本会用小贴纸升级，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: No, I don't have that one yet.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，我还没有那个。

Julie Zhuo: ...

卓朱莉：……

Eric is great.

埃里克很棒。

You should definitely have him on your...

你绝对应该把他放在你的...

He's such a creative character.

他是一个很有创造力的人物。

One time, I saw him with a parrot on his shoulder, and I was like, "Why do you have a parrot on your shoulder?"

有一次，我看到他肩上扛着一只鹦鹉，我就想：“你肩上为什么有一只鹦鹉？”

Julie Zhuo: He's like, "Well, you can talk to my parrot.

Julie Zhuo：他就像是，“好吧，你可以和我的鹦鹉说话。

It's a talking parrot," and then I spoke to the parrot and the parrot spoke back to me.

这是一只会说话的鹦鹉。”然后我对鹦鹉说话，鹦鹉也对我说话。

What had happened is that he had hooked up a microphone, he surgically went into the parrot and added a microphone, a speaker, and connected it to voice mode on ChatGPT so that...

发生的事情是，他连接了一个麦克风，他通过外科手术进入鹦鹉体内，添加了一个麦克风、一个扬声器，并将其连接到 ChatGPT 上的语音模式，这样……

It spoken I think like a pirate voice.

我觉得它的声音就像海盗的声音。

Julie Zhuo: I was like, "This is the best idea." My six-year-old son is really into raccoons.

Julie Zhuo：我当时想，“这是最好的主意。”我六岁的儿子非常喜欢浣熊。

He has a huge amount of raccoon stuffies.

他有大量的浣熊玩偶。

I was like, "I want a raccoon that can talk to him," so I made that using the Eric Antonow method, but it was great.

我当时想，“我想要一只可以和他说话的浣熊”，所以我用埃里克·安东诺的方法做了这个，但它很棒。

It was a huge hit.

这是一个巨大的打击。

Now, my middle son's birthday's coming up, and he is really into parody.

现在，我二儿子的生日快到了，他真的很喜欢模仿。

He loves video games, so Minecraft, but what he often listens to on his Alexa are these parody songs.

他喜欢电子游戏，所以喜欢《我的世界》，但他经常在 Alexa 上听的是这些模仿歌曲。

It'll be like Justin Bieber's hit or Gangnam Style, but they've changed the lyrics so it becomes a video game parody of some video game that he's playing, and they're horribly sung.

这就像贾斯汀·比伯的热门歌曲或江南风格，但他们改变了歌词，所以它变成了他正在玩的某些电子游戏的电子游戏模仿，而且他们唱得非常糟糕。

They're like off-tune, it's just like some person who produced it.

他们就像跑调一样，就像是某个制作它的人一样。

I was like, "Well, if he doesn't seem to mind off-key singing, I'm going to create him an album of video game parody songs, and I'm going to create an..."

我当时想，“好吧，如果他似乎不介意走调唱歌，我会给他制作一张电子游戏模仿歌曲的专辑，而且我会制作一张……”

Julie Zhuo: I created an app on Replit, and what it does is you just give it a song.

Julie Zhuo：我在 Replit 上创建了一个应用程序，它的作用就是你只需给它一首歌。

This is Justin Bieber's Baby and you link to a Spotify song, and I give him some context like, "Oh, Locke likes playing Kingdom Rush right now.

这是贾斯汀·比伯的宝贝，你链接到一首 Spotify 歌曲，我给他一些背景信息，比如“哦，洛克现在喜欢玩《王国保卫战》。

We have an inside joke about the gargoyles being free money." Whatever it is, I just give it a bunch of context.

我们有一个内部笑话，说石像鬼是免费的钱。”不管它是什么，我只是给它一些背景信息。

I'm like, "Write me a song that just personalizes it and it's a parody of this particular video game." It writes me the lyrics.

我想，“给我写一首个性化的歌曲，它是对这个特定视频游戏的模仿。”它给我写歌词。

It's pretty good at doing this.

它很擅长做到这一点。

It's pretty high quality.

质量相当高。

Again, it does it according to the beats of the music, and then I just sing it and record it, and then I got myself a song, so I'm creating an album of this, which I'm going to give to him.

再说一次，它是根据音乐的节拍来做的，然后我只是唱它并录制它，然后我给自己写了一首歌，所以我正在制作一张专辑，我将把它送给他。

He's not going to hear this podcast, so no one spoil it to him.

他不会听这个播客，所以没有人破坏他的播客。

I think this is going to go publish after his birthday, but I'm very excited about this.

我认为这将在他生日后出版，但我对此感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, so you're going to be the one singing the song?

Lenny Rachitsky：等等，所以你会成为演唱这首歌的人？

Lenny Rachitsky: I thought you were going to use Suna or some AI thing to actually sing it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我以为你会用 Suna 或一些人工智能的东西来实际唱歌。

Julie Zhuo: No, I think I'm going to sing it myself.

卓朱莉：不，我想我自己唱。

Julie Zhuo: All of this made it so easy.

Julie Zhuo：这一切都让事情变得如此简单。

All I have to do is just record.

我所要做的只是记录。

Again, I'm not a very good singer, but it doesn't turn him off to hear off-key singing.

再说一次，我不是一个很好的歌手，但这并不能阻止他听到走调的歌声。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Wow, that is so beautiful.

哇，那太漂亮了。

This gave me so many ideas for gifts I can give to kids in my life, and I just love how AI is making it, I don't know, easier to be a parent and, in some ways, more delightful.

这给了我很多关于可以在生活中送给孩子的礼物的想法，我很喜欢人工智能如何让做父母变得更容易，并且在某些方面更令人愉快。

These are awesome examples.

这些都是很棒的例子。

Okay, I'm going to take us to a different corner, contrarian corner.

好吧，我要带我们去一个不同的角落，逆向角落。

What's something that you believe that most other people don't, people would disagree with?

有什么事情是你认为大多数人不认为、人们会不同意的？

Julie Zhuo: I believe that there's infinity in every direction.

Julie Zhuo：我相信每个方向都有无限。

That makes me pretty contrarian on pretty much everything that anyone says.

这让我对任何人所说的几乎所有事情都持相反态度。

If someone says something like on Twitter, I sometimes play this game with myself, which is in what context would that actually not be true?

如果有人在推特上说类似的话，我有时会和自己玩这个游戏，在什么情况下这实际上不是真的？

I think the reality is that the world is so, or at least my reality and my understanding of the reality, is that the world is just infinitely complex.

我认为现实就是世界如此，或者至少我的现实和我对现实的理解，世界就是无限复杂的。

For example, if my kids say something like going outside is boring, or taking a walk is boring, or doing something is boring, my general response will be, "Well, it's because you're not seeing the infinity that's in that direction."

例如，如果我的孩子说出去很无聊，或者散步很无聊，或者做某事很无聊，我的一般反应会是，“嗯，这是因为你没有看到那个方向的无限。”

Julie Zhuo: Even, for example, something really mundane like staring at a blank wall, I think that you can make that actually deeply, deeply interesting, because you can use that as an opportunity to go into your own mind and to figure out how you can make time pass, or you can meditate on the existence or meditate on your breath, or just be grateful for the purpose of being alive.

朱莉·卓：即使是一些非常平凡的事情，比如盯着一堵空白的墙，我认为你可以让它变得非常非常有趣，因为你可以利用它作为一个机会进入你自己的思想，弄清楚如何让时间过去，或者你可以冥想存在或冥想你的呼吸，或者只是对活着的目的心存感激。

Two people, one person you can say, "Sit in front of a wall for an hour," and, like my kid, they will super complain and be like, "This is the worst thing ever," but you can put somebody else like a monk and they'll have a wonderful experience.

两个人，一个人，你可以说，“在墙前坐一个小时”，就像我的孩子一样，他们会超级抱怨，“这是有史以来最糟糕的事情”，但你可以让其他人像和尚一样，他们会获得美妙的体验。

It's not really about the environment or the wall.

这与环境或墙壁无关。

It's really about how we see it and whether we can find the thing that is deep, and rich, and infinite in that direction.

这实际上是关于我们如何看待它，以及我们是否能够在那个方向上找到深刻、丰富和无限的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, these are some deep answers.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这些都是一些深刻的答案。

This is very, I don't know, Buddhist, very mindfulness-oriented.

我不知道这是非常佛教的，非常注重正念的。

I did a retreat once and their advice was just anytime you're bored, just notice all the things that are going on around you.

我参加过一次静修，他们的建议是，只要你感到无聊，就注意周围发生的所有事情。

What does your seat feel like right now?

您现在的座位感觉如何？

What does the air feel like?

空气是什么感觉？

What are you hearing right now?

你现在听到什么？

It's exactly what you're saying, there's infinite things to pay attention to and keep you interested.

这正是你所说的，有无数的事情值得关注并让你保持兴趣。

It's hard.

这很难。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hard to actually do that for a long time and practice.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上很难长时间做到这一点并进行练习。

That's why it's a practice.

这就是为什么它是一种实践。

Julie Zhuo: That's why it's a practice.

Julie Zhuo：这就是为什么这是一种实践。

But I repeat that to myself, because oftentimes, if I have a bad experience feeling a certain way, it helps me to realize that it's often probably in my head.

但我对自己重复一遍，因为很多时候，如果我有某种不好的经历，它会帮助我意识到它可能就在我的脑海里。

It's because I haven't gained the skills to be able to see the richness and infinity in that...

这是因为我还没有获得能够看到其中的丰富性和无限性的技能......

I can maybe work on that.

我也许可以解决这个问题。

That feels better than feeling like, "Oh, I'm a victim of my circumstances.

这比感觉“哦，我是我的环境的受害者”要好。

This thing happened to me," and that's so awful but not powerless, I can't do anything about it.

这件事发生在我身上，”这太可怕了，但并非无能为力，我对此无能为力。

That, to me, is a worse feeling than the alternative, which is I just don't have the skill yet.

对我来说，这比另一种感觉更糟糕，因为我还没有这项技能。

I can recognize it for what it is.

我能认出它是什么。

I don't have the skill yet, but I can grow.

我还没有技能，但我可以成长。

I can maybe get better at it.

我也许可以做得更好。

There is a person out there who had the same situation as me and feels much more positively than I do, and don't I want to be more like that person?

有一个人和我有同样的处境，并且比我感觉更积极，我难道不想变得更像那个人吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: It's such a beautiful circle back to our very first episode, which a lot of it was on imposter syndrome and overcoming that and your story there, so I love that that's maybe a way to close this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常美丽的循环，回到我们的第一集，其中很多内容都是关于冒名顶替综合症并克服它以及你在那里的故事，所以我喜欢这也许是结束这次对话的一种方式。

But before we do that and before we get to our very exciting lightning ground, is there anything else that you wanted to mention, or share, or double down on that we've talked about?

但在我们这样做之前，在我们进入令人兴奋的闪电领域之前，您还有什么想要提及、分享或加倍强调我们已经讨论过的事情吗？

Julie Zhuo: I just want to say thank you.

卓朱莉：我只想说声谢谢。

Honestly, I'm so inspired by the work that you do.

老实说，你所做的工作给我很大的启发。

I know we've known each other for quite a while, and I just think from the very first idea that you had for this newsletter, for the podcast, has been incredible, and I think the world gets so much from it.

我知道我们已经认识很长一段时间了，我只是认为从你对这份时事通讯、播客的第一个想法开始，就令人难以置信，我认为世界从中受益匪浅。

I'm sure you hear that a lot, but I am very grateful.

我相信你经常听到这样的说法，但我非常感激。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I really appreciate that, and I say this every time we do a chat, is just this wouldn't have been possible without you, Julie.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我真的很感激，每次我们聊天时我都会这么说，如果没有你，这一切都是不可能的，朱莉。

I was inspired by your longtime newsletter, The Looking Glass.

我的灵感来自于你们长期发行的时事通讯《The Looking Glass》。

Essentially, my idea was what if I do this for product?

本质上，我的想法是，如果我为产品这样做会怎样？

I started on Medium just like you did, and then I moved to Substack, and then it's like, "What if I charge for this?" That worked, and then I'm like, "What if I do a podcast?" and then that worked.

我像你一样从 Medium 开始，然后转到 Substack，然后就想，“如果我为此收费怎么办？”这很有效，然后我想，“如果我做播客怎么办？”然后就成功了。

But it all began with your concept, so thank you, Julie.

但这一切都始于你的想法，所以谢谢你，朱莉。

Julie Zhuo: Yeah.

卓朱莉：是的。

I think you do it with so much kindness and curiosity as you always have, so I love that.

我认为你一如既往地充满善意和好奇心，所以我喜欢这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's just who I am.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我就是这样的人。

Well, with that, we have reached our very exciting lighting round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的照明回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Julie Zhuo: The first is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

卓朱莉：第一个是禅宗与摩托车维修艺术。

I absolutely love that book.

我非常喜欢那本书。

It's beautifully written.

写得很漂亮。

It's so deep.

太深了。

My whole philosophy around quality is beautifully...

我关于质量的整个哲学是美丽的......

A lot of it comes from that book, the idea and even all the stuff that we talked about change.

其中很多都来自那本书、想法，甚至我们谈论的所有内容都发生了变化。

What does it mean to be at that forefront of change and dynamic quality?

处于变革和动态质量的最前沿意味着什么？

I think he just talks about so beautifully and so masterfully in that book.

我认为他在那本书中谈论得如此美丽和精湛。

Old classic, but I try to reread it every few years or so.

老经典，但我尝试每隔几年左右重读一次。

Second is Conscious Business.

其次是有意识的商业。

It is my favorite management book.

这是我最喜欢的管理书籍。

It's a little bit of a sleeper head because I actually end up recommending this one far more than my own book.

这有点让人昏昏欲睡，因为实际上我最终推荐这本书的次数远远超过了我自己的书。

Julie Zhuo: I read this one after I wrote my book, and I always tell people that if I read it before, I'm not sure I would've written my book, because I would've been like, "Conscious Business is really the book that really, really so much resonates." Many of the things I talked about, this idea of win-win, idea of being a player, not a victim, and how to think about work, not just it's a job but how do you really think about aligning it with your own personal values and what you want to do in the world, I think that this book really speaks to that so beautifully.

朱莉·卓：我在写完书后读了这本书，我总是告诉人们，如果我以前读过它，我不确定我是否会写我的书，因为我会说，“《意识商业》真的是一本非常非常能引起共鸣的书。”我谈到的很多事情，双赢的想法，成为玩家而不是受害者的想法，以及如何思考工作，不仅仅是一份工作，而是你如何真正考虑将它与你自己的个人价值观和你想在世界上做的事情结合起来，我认为这本书确实很好地阐述了这一点。

It is also very tactical.

这也非常有策略性。

It's got a lot of really wonderful examples.

它有很多非常精彩的例子。

I will tell people, the cover isn't very attractive, and I think that if you judge a book by its cover, this seems very corporate-y.

我会告诉人们，封面不是很吸引人，而且我认为，如果你以封面来判断一本书，这看起来非常企业化。

The title also seems like, "What conscious business?" and the first chapter is a little bit more technical.

标题也像是“什么有意识的生意？”第一章技术性更强一些。

But if you just get past it and get into chapter two and you start with examples of the soccer team, it's just the best management book.

但如果你跳过它并进入第二章并从足球队的例子开始，那么它就是最好的管理书。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is good advice to get people over the hump when they look for it.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议，可以帮助人们在寻找时克服困难。

They're like, "Okay, okay, I'm going to stick with it."

他们会说：“好吧，好吧，我会坚持下去。”

Julie Zhuo: Yes.

卓朱莉：是的。

Okay, third book.

好吧，第三本书。

I love the book Good Inside by Dr. Becky.

我喜欢贝基博士的《Good Inside》这本书。

It's a parenting book and it's a very wildly popular parenting book, so I really recommend it to all parents, but I also think it's just a wonderful book for thinking about relationships, because parenting is that.

这是一本育儿书，也是一本非常受欢迎的育儿书，所以我真的向所有父母推荐它，但我也认为这也是一本思考人际关系的好书，因为育儿就是这样。

It's like a very, very deep and intense relationship and interaction that you have with another human being, and there's so many things that I read in parenting books, including Good Inside by Dr. Becky, that I think could just as well been a management or a team leadership book.

这就像你与另一个人之间的一种非常非常深刻和强烈的关系和互动，我在育儿书籍中读到了很多东西，包括贝基博士的《Good Inside》，我认为这也可以是一本管理或团队领导力的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: I am thinking about trying to ask Dr. Becky to come on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我正在考虑邀请贝基博士来参加播客。

I feel like there could be a lot of synergy exactly for that reason.

我觉得正是因为这个原因，可能会产生很多协同作用。

She uses this term sturdy, which inspired maybe your bullet tree process.

她使用“坚固”这个词，这可能启发了你的子弹树过程。

Julie Zhuo: Oh, yeah, I probably got it...

Julie Zhuo：噢，是的，我大概明白了……

I think she talks a lot about sturdiness and that just incepted right in here.

我认为她谈论了很多关于坚固的话题，而这正是从这里开始的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Her whole thing is being a sturdy parent.

她的全部事情就是成为一个坚强的父母。

Strong but flexible, I imagine.

我想，坚强但灵活。

Yeah.

是的。

I love her and I love her stuff.

我爱她，也爱她的东西。

I watch all her videos on TikTok and Emily Oster.

我在 TikTok 和 Emily Oster 上观看了她的所有视频。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Is there a movie or TV show you recently enjoyed?

有没有您最近喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Julie Zhuo: I have not watched anything.

卓朱莉：我什么都没看过。

I have no good answer for you.

我没有什么好的答案给你。

I think the only thing I watched this year was a rewatch of La La Land, which I do truly love.

我想我今年唯一看的就是重看《爱乐之城》，我真的很喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: So delightful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太令人愉快了。

Okay.

好的。

Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？

Julie Zhuo: I don't think there's anything too new.

Julie Zhuo：我不认为有什么太新的东西。

I love Granola, I love Replit.

我爱格兰诺拉麦片，我爱雷普利特。

I've used all of the different coding lamps.

我使用过所有不同的编码灯。

Cursor is big on me for now.

光标现在对我来说很大。

I just got a Matic Robot.

我刚刚得到了一个 Matic 机器人。

I think that's been really delightful so far, at least the setup.

我认为到目前为止，至少在设置方面确实令人愉快。

I haven't used it long, long term, but it's the setup, the way that it worked.

我没有长期使用它，但这就是它的设置和工作方式。

The fact that it had little stickers and you could make it into a dog or a cat was a wonderful experience.

事实上，它有小贴纸，你可以把它变成一只狗或一只猫，这是一次美妙的体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: The Matic Robot, willing to it, I am also a huge fan.

Lenny Rachitsky：Matic 机器人，愿意，我也是它的超级粉丝。

I'm not an investor that's...

我不是投资者，而是...

Essentially, Waymo meets Roomba.

本质上，Waymo 遇见了 Roomba。

For folks that don't anything about it, it's like a very sophisticated robot vacuum built by AI vision people.

对于对此一无所知的人来说，它就像一个由人工智能视觉人员建造的非常复杂的机器人真空吸尘器。

Julie Zhuo: Oh, I just thought of one more as well, the Limitless Pendant.

卓莉：哦，我又想到了一个，无限吊坠。

Disclaimer, I am a small investor in Limitless, but what I love about it is that...

免责声明，我是 Limitless 的小投资者，但我喜欢它的是......

Okay.

好的。

It's a pendant, you wear it, and it just records everything that's going on, and later it summarizes things and it gives you feedback.

它是一个吊坠，你戴上它，它只是记录正在发生的一切，然后它总结事情并给你反馈。

I don't usually wear it out because I find that maybe other people feel awkward that I'm recording everything, I usually try and get people's permission, but I do wear it at home when I'm with my kids, and one of the best things that the pendant does is it gives me feedback on parenting.

我通常不会佩戴它，因为我发现其他人可能会因为我记录一切而感到尴尬，我通常会尝试获得人们的许可，但当我和孩子们在一起时，我确实会在家里佩戴它，而吊坠最好的事情之一就是它为我提供了有关育儿的反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: What?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：什么？

Automatically or run into ChatGPT?

自动还是遇到 ChatGPT？

Julie Zhuo: No, automatically.

卓朱莉：不，自动的。

There's an app and it will sometimes notify me, or if I check it, it'll...

有一个应用程序，它有时会通知我，或者如果我检查它，它会...

Or I can also engage with Ask It, but what it does is essentially...

或者我也可以参与 Ask It，但它的作用本质上是......

It's like Granola, but for your life in terms of capturing everything, summarizing it, and then giving you tips and feedback.

它就像格兰诺拉麦片，但对于您的生活而言，它可以捕捉一切，进行总结，然后为您提供提示和反馈。

It's said things like, "Hey, there was that time you were talking about the game and you cut your kid off a lot.

有人这样说，“嘿，有一次你在谈论游戏时，你经常打断你孩子的发言。

Maybe next time, think about letting them speak fully and listening better."

也许下次，考虑让他们充分发言并更好地倾听。”

Lenny Rachitsky: The app itself natively does that?

Lenny Rachitsky：应用程序本身就是这样做的吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I did not know that, because I have one.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，因为我有一个。

I haven't used it much recently.

我最近没怎么用它。

That is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

I wonder if it gives you relationship advice too if you're talking to your partner.

我想知道如果您正在与伴侣交谈，它是否也可以为您提供人际关系建议。

I wonder how it even knows.

我想知道它是怎么知道的。

Julie Zhuo: Yeah.

卓朱莉：是的。

It did a pretty good job of inferring.

它在推断方面做得非常好。

I think I said person two, but it was kind of eye-opening for me.

我想我说的是第二个人，但这让我大开眼界。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。

There's a recent episode of our How I AI podcast, our sister podcast, where somebody wears that in their meetings with their CEO and automatically turns what they're asking for into a prototype from the meeting notes, and then sales teams can start showing it to people to see if they're interested.

我们的姊妹播客“How I AI”播客最近有一集，有人在与首席执行官的会议上佩戴它，并自动将他们要求的内容从会议记录中变成原型，然后销售团队可以开始向人们展示它，看看他们是否感兴趣。

How about that?

怎么样？

Julie Zhuo: That's awesome.

朱莉·卓： 太棒了。

That is super cool.

那太酷了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Holy moly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

, what is even happening?

，到底发生了什么？

Okay, I'll keep going.

好吧，我会继续。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself repeating to yourself, sharing with others?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常对自己重复，并与他人分享？

Julie Zhuo: I like make it happen.

Julie Zhuo：我喜欢让它发生。

Just a reminder that, at the end of the day, we could have a lot of motion.

只是提醒一下，在一天结束时，我们可以有很多动作。

Maybe this is another one that I really like.

也许这是我真正喜欢的另一件事。

I think about this poster.

我想到了这张海报。

It used to be a poster at Facebook that says "don't mistake Motion for progress".

Facebook 曾经有一张海报，上面写着“不要把 Motion 误认为是进步”。

There's this idea of be the change We want to be in the world, I guess is other ways of saying the same thing, which is I can do things.

我们想要改变这个世界，我想这是表达同一件事的其他方式，那就是我可以做事。

We can all do things.

我们都可以做事。

We have better and better tools to go out there and make things happen.

我们拥有越来越好的工具来让事情发生。

Make it happen.

让它发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: The common meme on Twitter, you can just do things.

Lenny Rachitsky：Twitter 上常见的模因是，你可以做事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

I like to ask this question to folks that are really deep in AI, and been working with AI, and getting a sense of where things are going.

我喜欢向那些对人工智能有深入了解、一直在使用人工智能并了解事情进展的人提出这个问题。

Is there something that you teach your kids or teaching your kids, think about encouraging them to learn, knowing that AI is going to be a big part of their life?

你是否教过你的孩子一些东西，或者教你的孩子，考虑鼓励他们学习，知道人工智能将成为他们生活的重要组成部分？

Julie Zhuo: Emotional regulation is still really, really, really important.

卓朱莉：情绪调节还是非常非常非常重要。

That's probably the thing that I think about the most in terms of what I want my kids to learn.

就我希望我的孩子学习的内容而言，这可能是我考虑最多的事情。

I want my kids to be able to introspect, to have a better understanding of where their state of mind is, because we're still human.

我希望我的孩子能够内省，更好地了解他们的心态，因为我们仍然是人。

We still have the same hardware that humans have had for thousands of years, and that's not changing even as the tools and the environment around us change, and so I feel that you have to really understand yourself and you have to understand what's going on for you and where you are biased and where you're not, because AI can make it...

我们仍然拥有人类几千年来所拥有的相同硬件，即使我们周围的工具和环境发生变化，这一点也不会改变，所以我觉得你必须真正了解自己，你必须了解你正在发生什么，你在哪里有偏见，哪里没有，因为人工智能可以做到……

This is my great fear, is that it makes things so much more comfortable.

这是我最大的恐惧，它会让事情变得更加舒适。

I have this great fear that this has been the trajectory that we've been on with technology.

我非常担心这就是我们技术发展的轨迹。

This is, again, going back to every strength is a weakness.

再次强调，凡是强项都是弱项。

Julie Zhuo: Technology makes things a lot easier.

Julie Zhuo：科技让事情变得更容易。

That's why we invent, that's why we create.

这就是我们发明、创造的原因。

Human race has always been about trying to better our circumstances and, in some ways, control our destiny, control our future.

人类一直致力于改善我们的环境，并在某些方面控制我们的命运，控制我们的未来。

But at the same time, all of that control gets to a point where we have so many shortcuts in our lives and you can shortcut a lot of things.

但与此同时，所有这些控制都达到了我们生活中有如此多捷径的地步，你可以走捷径很多事情。

You can shortcut relationships, you can shortcut hard feelings, because now you can just watch TikTok instead of actually dealing with a very difficult emotion or tension that you had with a colleague, or with your partner, or with your children.

你可以缩短人际关系，你可以缩短痛苦的感觉，因为现在你可以只看 TikTok，而不是真正处理你与同事、伴侣或孩子之间的非常困难的情绪或紧张。

AI makes it even, I think, more attractive, because now there's a person or there's a thing that can be very, very personalized, and if you're like, "Oh, I want a distraction, I want to do something," you got that.

我认为，人工智能让它变得更有吸引力，因为现在有一个人或一件事可以非常非常个性化，如果你想，“哦，我想要分散注意力，我想做点什么，”你就明白了。

Julie Zhuo: But how do we actually still learn to sit with what is our true biology that's not changing, and how do we continue to be the kind of people that want to take on the freedom of doing challenging things?

Julie Zhuo：但是，我们如何才能真正学会接受我们真正的生物学并没有改变，以及我们如何继续成为那种想要自由地做具有挑战性的事情的人？

Because I find that if we don't do challenging things, we suffer.

因为我发现如果我们不做有挑战性的事情，我们就会受苦。

We suffer in a different way, and so, to me, true freedom is you can pick the things that are hard and you can feel pride in becoming the thing that you want to be.

我们以不同的方式受苦，所以，对我来说，真正的自由是你可以选择困难的事情，你可以为成为你想成为的人而感到自豪。

It's not forced upon you.

这不是强加给你的。

It's not for survival's sake anymore, but you still have to pick.

不再是为了生存，但你仍然必须选择。

I want to figure out for my children the fact that it is really important to still find the challenge.

我想让我的孩子们明白，找到挑战是非常重要的。

Yes, you can use AI to do that, but really, don't think about it as a shortcut tool, because if that's the case, I don't actually think that they're going to be able to become the kind of people they want to be in the world.

是的，你可以使用人工智能来做到这一点，但实际上，不要将其视为一种捷径工具，因为如果是这样的话，我实际上并不认为他们能够成为他们想成为的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a beautiful way to end this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：结束这次谈话的方式真是太美妙了。

Julie, it feels like this is just some kind of huge milestone of this podcast.

朱莉，感觉这只是这个播客的某种巨大的里程碑。

Just like having you back three years later, it's like, I don't know, a chapter in the journey.

就像三年后你回来一样，我不知道，这就像旅程中的一个章节。

I appreciate you coming back.

我很感激你回来。

I appreciate you sharing all this wisdom with us.

我感谢您与我们分享所有这些智慧。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe chat about maybe Sundial, maybe whatever else you're up to, and then how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系您，或者谈论日晷，或者您正在做的其他事情，那么他们可以在哪里找到您，那么听众如何对您有用呢？

Julie Zhuo: Well, I would love to work with people who are at companies building really cool things and want better answers to how we build better, and so if you think your company would be interested in working with us at Sundial and figuring out how do we make every single decision maker into their own expert analyst, please reach out.

Julie Zhuo：嗯，我很乐意与公司里的人们一起工作，他们正在构建非常酷的东西，并且想要更好地回答我们如何构建得更好，因此，如果您认为您的公司有兴趣与我们在 Sundial 合作，并弄清楚我们如何使每个决策者成为自己的专家分析师，请与我们联系。

That's one area, sundial@sundial.so.

这是一个区域，sundial@sundial.so。

I am on X, so I've been tweeting a lot more, sharing thoughts.

我在 X，所以我发了很多推文，分享想法。

Going back to that skill of practicing, just share what's on your mind.

回到练习的技巧，只是分享你的想法。

Julie Zhuo: But for the long form stuff, I have my blog, The Looking Glass.

Julie Zhuo：但是对于长篇文章，我有我的博客，The Looking Glass。

It's on Substack.

它位于子堆栈上。

I share articles and thoughts about AI, product building, leadership periodically, and then, of course, I have my book, the revised edition with two additional chapters.

我定期分享有关人工智能、产品构建、领导力的文章和想法，然后，当然，我有了我的书，修订版，增加了两章。

One is around managing remotely and the other one is around managing in a downturn or managing in difficult change scenarios.

一种是远程管理，另一种是在经济低迷时期进行管理或在困难的变化场景中进行管理。

That will be coming out in two weeks' time.

这将在两周后发布。

The new content will be in the paperback.

新内容将出现在平装本中。

That's important.

这很重要。

I'll send you a version of this when I get a copy myself, Lenny-

当我自己拿到一份副本时，我会寄给你一个版本，莱尼-

Julie Zhuo: ...

卓朱莉：……

but the paperback has a gradient type of cover.

但平装本有渐变类型的封面。

The hardback will eventually get the new content, but it just takes a while to phase out from all of the different retailers, so if you buy one, I cannot guarantee that it's going to have the new content.

精装本最终将获得新内容，但需要一段时间才能从所有不同的零售商中逐步淘汰，因此，如果您购买一本，我不能保证它会包含新内容。

But certainly, the Kindle and the paperback will have all of the new content.

但可以肯定的是，Kindle 和平装本将包含所有新内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just for the publish day, because this might come out later, what's the date that's coming up just for folks?

Lenny Rachitsky：就发布日而言，因为这可能会稍后发布，所以大家知道的日期是哪一天？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

I think it'll be out by the time this is out, so go buy it.

估计等这个出来了，就去买吧。

I imagine available on Amazon, all your local retailers.

我想亚马逊和所有当地零售商都可以买到。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Julie, thank you so much for being here.

朱莉，非常感谢你来到这里。

Julie Zhuo: Thank you so much, Lenny.

朱莉·卓：非常感谢你，莱尼。

This was so fun.

这太有趣了。

I hope to be back in another three years or whatever the next chapter is.

我希望能在三年后回来，或者无论下一章是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hopefully sooner.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：希望能早点。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。