M&A, competition, pricing, and investing | Julia Schottenstein (dbt Labs)

Julia Schottenstein: M&A is always about creating plan Bs.

Julia Schottenstein：并购总是要制定备用计划。

And the way I would think about it is for any one company, there's only ever two to three buyers that find what you're building to be extremely strategic.

我的想法是，对于任何一家公司来说，只有两到三个买家认为你正在构建的产品极具战略意义。

And the strategy that I would do in how do you get noticed is I would figure out the area that you bring a competitive advantage.

在如何让你受到关注方面，我会采取的策略是找出你带来竞争优势的领域。

And I would inflict pain on that potential buyer.

我会给那个潜在买家带来痛苦。

Make it impossible for them to not notice you because that's when they're going to have their ears perk up and say, "Well, what's going on with this company?"

让他们不可能不注意到你，因为那时他们就会竖起耳朵说：“嗯，这家公司怎么了？”

Julia Schottenstein: The really important piece here is you want to do that in a way that's still friendly and open.

Julia Schottenstein：这里真正重要的一点是你想以一种仍然友好和开放的方式做到这一点。

I see a lot of founders get this wrong and they prematurely will shut down a conversation or they won't talk to an incumbent or a potential future buyer because they take too competitive of a stance.

我看到很多创始人都犯了这个错误，他们会过早地结束对话，或者不会与现任者或潜在的未来买家交谈，因为他们采取了过于竞争的立场。

But that's a mistake because M&A is all about creating plan Bs and you don't want to shut that door down prematurely because you don't know if you can really go the distance and be an independent company.

但这是一个错误，因为并购就是制定备用计划，你不想过早地关闭这扇门，因为你不知道你是否真的能走得更远，成为一家独立的公司。

So you want to have optionality.

所以你想要有选择性。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Julia Schottenstein.

今天我的嘉宾是朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦。

Julia is a product leader at dbt Labs where she leads the dbt Cloud product.

Julia 是 dbt Labs 的产品负责人，负责领导 dbt Cloud 产品。

She's also the co-host of the dbt Labs podcast called Analytics Engineering Podcast, a show about data trends that impact analytics engineers work.

她还是 dbt Labs 播客“分析工程播客”的联合主持人，该节目讲述影响分析工程师工作的数据趋势。

As you'll hear in this episode, Julia actually led the acquisition of a startup that I'm an investor in called Transform from the side of dbt Labs.

正如您将在本集中听到的那样，Julia 实际上领导了对一家名为 Transform 的初创公司的收购，我是 dbt Labs 方面的投资者。

Lenny: And in our conversation, we dig into the M&A process and get into a bunch of advice for how to improve your odds of having a good outcome and just approaching M&A broadly.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了并购流程，并就如何提高获得良好结果和广泛开展并购的可能性提出了一系列建议。

We also dig into the story of dbt, which is one of the most successful startups out there that you probably don't know about.

我们还深入研究了 dbt 的故事，它是您可能不知道的最成功的初创公司之一。

And we talked about what they did right to get to where they are now.

我们讨论了他们做了什么正确的事情才达到了现在的水平。

We also cover how to best think about competition, a bunch of frameworks for thinking about product and advice on how to approach pricing and also open source.

我们还介绍了如何最好地考虑竞争、一系列思考产品的框架以及如何处理定价和开源的建议。

Enjoy this episode with Julia Schottenstein after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与 Julia Schottenstein 一起欣赏这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Calm, Quora and Modern Treasury Trust, Vanta to help build scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

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By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more.

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Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、建立高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 best scoring companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家得分最高的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和这些其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny 的播客听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny, to learn more and to claim your discounts Get started today.

请访问vanta.com/lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣，立即开始。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Superhuman.

莱尼：这一集是由超人为您带来的。

How much time do you spend in email each day?

您每天花多少时间在电子邮件上？

How about your team?

你的团队怎么样？

You may not realize this, but your email tools are wasting your time.

您可能没有意识到这一点，但您的电子邮件工具正在浪费您的时间。

Superhuman is blazingly fast.

超人的速度快得惊人。

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专为与 Gmail 和 Outlook 配合使用而打造的高绩效团队的电子邮件。

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使用 Super human 的团队可以将一半的时间花在收件箱上，回复两倍数量的电子邮件，每周可以节省四个多小时。

That's over a month of save time per year.

每年可节省一个多月的时间。

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借助 Super human，您可以将收件箱分成 VIP、团队成员和来自您喜爱的产品的电子邮件流，以减少上下文切换。

And make sure you never miss an important email.

并确保您不会错过任何重要的电子邮件。

Lenny: You can start reminders if you don't hear back so that you can follow up and never drop the ball on an email thread.

Lenny：如果您没有收到回复，您可以启动提醒，以便您可以跟进，而不会在电子邮件线程中犯错。

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请访问 super human.com/lenny 免费试用一个月。

That's superhuman.com/lenny.

那是 super human.com/lenny。

Lenny: Julia, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：朱莉娅，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: So you have a really interesting career path in that you went from VC into product management.

Lenny：所以你的职业道路非常有趣，从风险投资进入了产品管理。

Usually it's the other way around.

通常情况恰恰相反。

Usually PMs become VCs and it's right to see this version of it.

通常 PM 会成为 VC，看到这个版本是正确的。

So I wanted to start with just a question of just how did that come to be?

所以我想从一个问题开始：这是怎么发生的？

Julia Schottenstein: I do have an unusual background, but it doesn't surprise me that people who are interested in product are also interested in investing and vice versa.

Julia Schottenstein：我确实有一个不寻常的背景，但对产品感兴趣的人也对投资感兴趣，反之亦然，这并不令我感到惊讶。

For me, I've always had three interests broadly and that's an interest in business, an interest in technology and an interest in markets.

对我来说，我一直有三个广泛的兴趣，那就是对商业的兴趣、对技术的兴趣和对市场的兴趣。

And I get to express those interests both in investing and in product, but just with different weights.

我可以表达对投资和产品的兴趣，但只是权重不同。

So in product you go a lot deeper on the tech and markets is less of a focus, but you still get to do all three.

因此，在产品中，你会更深入地了解技术，而市场不再是重点，但你仍然可以同时完成这三项工作。

So I have a unusual background and I used to be a professional investor at NEA.

所以我有一个不寻常的背景，我曾经是NEA的专业投资者。

Spent all my time investing in early stage startups that built for technical audiences.

我把所有的时间都花在了为技术受众打造的早期初创公司上。

So think dev tools, infra data companies.

所以想想开发工具、基础设施数据公司。

Julia Schottenstein: And in 2019 I first discovered dbt, which was an open source data transformation framework.

Julia Schottenstein：2019 年，我第一次发现了 dbt，这是一个开源数据转换框架。

And I got really very, very excited about dbt because when I talked to people that were using it, the way that they described their experience on dbt was like unlike anything I had heard before.

我对 dbt 感到非常非常兴奋，因为当我与使用 dbt 的人交谈时，他们描述 dbt 体验的方式与我以前听过的任何方式都不一样。

It was much more of an identity for them than just a tool that they were using to get their job done.

对于他们来说，这不仅仅是他们用来完成工作的工具，更是一种身份。

And that really struck me.

这真的让我印象深刻。

And as I thought about what was happening in the market, there was a lot going on in 2019.

当我思考市场发生的事情时，2019 年发生了很多事情。

The markets were changing quite a bit.

市场发生了很大变化。

Cloud data warehouses were starting to explode.

云数据仓库开始爆炸式增长。

This was the year where Snowflake went from a 4 billion company to a 12 billion company.

这一年，Snowflake从一家市值40亿的公司成长为市值120亿的公司。

And I thought to myself, if dbt worked, it could work in a really extraordinary way.

我心想，如果 dbt 有效，它会以一种非常非凡的方式发挥作用。

And I naturally tried to spend all my time getting close to Tristan, who's the CEO and founder and I wanted to invest.

我很自然地试图花所有的时间来接近特里斯坦，他是首席执行官兼创始人，我想投资。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So at this point you're a spec at NEA, you're trying to invest in dbt and okay, keep going.

因此，此时您是 NEA 的规范，您正在尝试投资 dbt，好吧，继续吧。

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

So I was very, very excited.

所以我非常非常兴奋。

I thought if this worked, it could work in a really extraordinary way and I spent all my time trying to get Tristan to like me so that I could invest in the company.

我想如果这行得通，它会以一种非常非凡的方式发挥作用，我花了所有的时间试图让特里斯坦喜欢我，以便我可以投资该公司。

And then in 2020, I finally got the call that I was waiting for.

然后在2020年，我终于接到了我一直在等待的电话。

Tristan said, "We're going to raise some money." He had a term sheet from a firm that he liked.

特里斯坦说：“我们要筹集一些资金。”他有一份他喜欢的公司的投资意向书。

It was a good venture fund, but he also liked me and he wanted to give me a shot and I was super excited to get that message because this is my chance.

这是一个很好的风险基金，但他也喜欢我，他想给我一个机会，收到这个消息我非常兴奋，因为这是我的机会。

And unfortunately I ended up losing that deal to Sequoia.

不幸的是，我最终输给了红杉资本。

It's a formidable partner.

这是一个强大的合作伙伴。

Julia Schottenstein: I was just so convicted that if was going to be a special company that I asked to even put my personal money in and I asked to put a very irresponsible, irrational amount, nearly like 20% of my liquid net worth into dbt because I was so convinced that this was special.

Julia Schottenstein：我非常确信如果这家公司会成为一家特殊的公司，我什至要求投入我的个人资金，而且我要求投入一笔非常不负责任、不合理的金额，几乎是我流动净值的 20% 投入 dbt，因为我非常确信这是一家特别的公司。

And sometimes when deals don't work out as an investor, you can create this narrative in your head like, "Good, I dodged a bullet or better off without them or screw them." But for me that was quite the opposite with dbt.

有时，作为投资者，当交易不成功时，你可以在脑海中创造这样的故事，比如，“很好，我躲过了子弹，或者没有它们会更好，或者搞砸它们。”但对我来说，dbt 的情况恰恰相反。

I really felt like dbt was this runaway train and it was special and I wanted to jump on board.

我真的觉得 dbt 就是这列失控的火车，它很特别，我想跳上车。

So a few months later I ended up calling Tristan and asked him if I could be a part of the company that built the product that I thought was so special.

所以几个月后，我最终打电话给特里斯坦，问他是否可以成为这家公司的一员，该公司生产了我认为如此特别的产品。

So that was my unique path into product and to dbt.

这就是我进入产品和 dbt 的独特途径。

Lenny: So you invested in dbt and then an opportunity opened up where you ended up working there?

Lenny：所以你投资了 dbt，然后出现了一个机会，你最终在那里工作？

Julia Schottenstein: No, I think if I was able to invest I wouldn't be here.

Julia Schottenstein：不，我想如果我能够投资，我就不会在这里。

So I got no, the board ended up vetoing my personal investment, but it's okay because I ended up dedicating all of my personal time to building the company.

所以我的答案是“不”，董事会最终否决了我的个人投资，但这没关系，因为我最终将所有个人时间都奉献给了公司建设。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So something you touched on there that was really interesting of what you saw about dbt that was so interesting and I think this is maybe a broader question of just in your time investing and finding a company like dbt early, what have you learned about just picking well, finding companies early especially?

所以你在那里提到的一些非常有趣的事情，你所看到的关于 dbt 的事情非常有趣，我认为这可能是一个更广泛的问题，即在你的时间里投资并尽早找到像 dbt 这样的公司，你从如何挑选好，特别是尽早找到公司中学到了什么？

What are signs in your experience of just that this is going to be something really interesting that you might want to join?

根据您的经历，有哪些迹象表明这将是您可能想加入的真正有趣的事情？

And this is more for people listening that are thinking about joining a company early on.

这更适合那些正在考虑尽早加入一家公司的听众。

What do you think they should look for?

您认为他们应该寻找什么？

Julia Schottenstein: So the way I would look at joining an early stage company would be the same way I would evaluate investing in one.

Julia Schottenstein：因此，我看待加入一家早期公司的方式与我评估投资一家公司的方式是一样的。

So there are four things that I care about when I'm looking at really early stage companies and it's people, market, product and distribution.

因此，当我关注真正处于早期阶段的公司时，我关心四件事：人员、市场、产品和分销。

And I'll touch on each of those four to say a little bit more about what specifically I'm looking at.

我将逐一讨论这四个方面，以更多地说明我具体关注的内容。

So people, this is really the CEO, the founder of the company put simply do you trust this person to lead.

所以各位，这确实是首席执行官，公司的创始人，简单地说，您是否信任这个人来领导。

And for me, Tristan had this really rare ability to paint a very compelling future of the industry and how dbt was going to be a part of making that vision a reality.

对我来说，Tristan 拥有这种非常罕见的能力，能够描绘出该行业非常引人注目的未来，以及 dbt 将如何成为实现这一愿景的一部分。

But he also was really, really detailed in the day-to-day work of the analytics engineering work.

但他在分析工程工作的日常工作中也非常非常详细。

And it was that range in scale that made me feel like this is a founder that's very rare and compelling.

正是这种规模范围让我觉得这是一位非常罕见且引人注目的创始人。

Julia Schottenstein: The next is markets.

Julia Schottenstein：接下来是市场。

We touched on it a little bit, but what I'm looking for in markets it's like is it growing?

我们稍微谈到了这个问题，但我在市场中寻找的是它是否在增长？

Is there space for new entrant to make its mark?

新进入者是否有留下痕迹的空间？

And when it came to dbt, it was an explosive time in cloud data warehouses and it was that chaos that was really the opportunity for dbt because they created some orderliness and structure to the way that people worked with their data in the cloud data warehouse.

说到 dbt，那是云数据仓库的爆炸性时期，这种混乱才是 dbt 真正的机会，因为它们为人们在云数据仓库中处理数据的方式创建了一些有序性和结构。

So that was very compelling.

所以这是非常引人注目的。

The next is product.

接下来是产品。

Everyone who's listening hopefully either is interested in products or has a product background.

希望每个倾听的人要么对产品感兴趣，要么有产品背景。

So I won't say too much there, but can you talk to users or potential customers, are they building something that's really special, unique?

所以我不会说太多，但是你能和用户或潜在客户谈谈，他们是否正在构建一些真正特别、独特的东西？

Can you hear that, spark that enthusiasm and figure out if this is going to be special.

你能听到吗，激发热情并弄清楚这是否会很特别。

Julia Schottenstein: And then the last, I think this is more important arguably than if they have a good product but is distribution, do they have an advantage on how are they going to get to market because that's really, really hard?

Julia Schottenstein：最后一点，我认为这可能比他们拥有好的产品更重要，但在分销方面，他们在如何进入市场方面是否有优势，因为这真的非常困难？

And think about how they think about their competitive advantage on either the ecosystem or distribution and how they're going to ultimately sell the product.

并思考他们如何看待自己在生态系统或分销方面的竞争优势，以及他们最终将如何销售产品。

You're not going to get a 10 out of 10 on all four dimensions.

你不会在所有四个维度上都得到 10 分（满分 10 分）。

So when you're joining a company, you also have the benefit of dedicating your time.

因此，当您加入一家公司时，您还可以享受奉献时间的好处。

So try to think if they're weaker on one dimension, what is it that you bring to the table or what are you special at that could potentially de-risk the success of the company

因此，试着想想，如果他们在某一方面较弱，你能带来什么，或者你擅长什么，这可能会降低公司成功的风险

Lenny: In terms of spark with a product.

Lenny：就产品的火花而言。

Right now on product market fit, now how do you know if you have product market fit?

现在就产品市场契合度而言，您如何知道您的产品是否适合市场？

And a lot of it often comes down to there's a emotional reaction from someone you're talking to about the product you're building.

这很大程度上取决于与你交谈的人对你正在开发的产品的情绪反应。

There's like, "Holy shit, I want this now." Is there anything even more specific you've seen of just what is a sign that this, there's a spark that people are just really enthused?

就像，“天啊，我现在就想要这个。”您是否看到过任何更具体的迹象表明人们真的很热情？

You talked about people made dbt part of their identity.

您谈到人们将 dbt 视为其身份的一部分。

Is there anything else there?

还有什么吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

It's can they not stop talking about it and that's the chatter about a product, they want to share it with their teammates or to other people at different companies.

他们不能停止谈论它，这就是关于产品的喋喋不休，他们想与他们的队友或不同公司的其他人分享它。

That just top of mind love and wanting to share what they've found with others is really a great sign that you're onto something.

那种内心深处的爱，以及想要与他人分享他们所发现的东西，这确实是一个很好的迹象，表明你正在做某事。

And then that spark will help do a lot of the work on how do you get to market because your evangelists are really your users of people that love what you're building.

然后，这种火花将有助于你完成有关如何进入市场的大量工作，因为你的布道者实际上是热爱你正在构建的产品的用户。

Lenny: What about in terms of the distribution bucket?

Lenny：那么分配桶方面呢？

What are some examples of just really important, I don't know, unique or effective distribution strategies or I don't know, unfair advantages you've seen maybe with dbt, maybe other companies?

有哪些真正重要的例子，我不知道，独特或有效的分销策略，或者我不知道，您可能在 dbt 或其他公司看到过不公平的优势？

What are some examples of that?

有哪些例子？

Julia Schottenstein: So dbt had an ecosystem advantage and they were open source and this helped really dramatically for lots of people to have low barrier friction to just try it out and spread organically.

Julia Schottenstein：所以 dbt 具有生态系统优势，而且它们是开源的，这对很多人来说确实有很大帮助，因为他们可以尝试并有机地传播，从而降低障碍。

They first got started with very horizontal.

他们一开始是非常水平的。

People could just get started without ever even talking to sales and think that was a competitive advantage.

人们甚至不需要与销售人员交谈就可以开始使用，并认为这是一种竞争优势。

But not all companies need to be product led.

但并非所有公司都需要以产品为主导。

Some companies are enterprise top-down sales.

有些企业是企业自上而下的销售。

So in those situations think about does the team really know how to land a complex enterprise sale?

那么在这些情况下，想一想团队是否真的知道如何完成复杂的企业销售？

Do they have a background in that particular space?

他们在那个特定领域有背景吗？

Do they have a network of connections?

他们有关系网吗？

Can be different depending on what the company is selling, but you either want to see a company that's really strong at enterprise or really strong at the bottoms up.

可能会有所不同，具体取决于公司销售的产品，但您要么希望看到一家在企业方面真正强大的公司，要么在自下而上真正强大的公司。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

So I want to shift a bit to talking about an area that you have a lot of experience in which a lot of people are also really interested in right now, which is M&A.

所以我想谈谈一个你拥有丰富经验的领域，现在很多人也对此非常感兴趣，那就是并购。

I've invested in a lot of companies and maybe, I don't know, once a month I'm getting an email from a startup I've been investor in.

我投资了很多公司，也许，我不知道，我每个月都会收到一封来自我投资过的初创公司的电子邮件。

There's just like, we're looking at maybe selling the company, things aren't working out the way we were hoping.

就像，我们正在考虑出售公司，但事情并没有按照我们希望的方式发展。

And you've been on I think maybe all sides of the table of M&A transactions, including I think you led the acquisition of a company...

我想你可能参与了并购交易的各个方面，包括我认为你领导了一家公司的收购......

I was an investor in the dbt acquired that I think is public company called Transform.

我是 dbt 收购的投资者，我认为这家公司是一家名为 Transform 的上市公司。

So my question is just for founders who are currently thinking about M&A meaning acquisition essentially.

所以我的问题只是针对目前正在思考并购本质上意味着收购的创始人。

What's your best advice for them for how to be most successful in M&A outcome for themselves?

对于他们如何在并购中取得最大成功，您对他们的最佳建议是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: When it comes to acquisitions, the time to start thinking about an M&A strategy is hopefully when you don't need one.

Julia Schottenstein：说到收购，最好是在不需要并购策略的时候开始考虑并购策略。

And the best strategy that I could give a founder is to have a really strong offense in building their company.

我可以给创始人的最佳策略是在建立他们的公司时拥有真正强大的进攻力。

And when founders start their businesses, they don't usually set out to start a company to sell it to another business.

当创始人创办自己的企业时，他们通常不会为了将其出售给另一家企业而开始创办一家公司。

They start it to be an enduring independent standalone company.

他们将其打造为一家持久的独立公司。

And if you have that path, then you'll have the upper hand in absolutely every single M&A conversation because you have a viable alternative, which is do nothing, stay the course, you don't have to sell.

如果你有这条路，那么你绝对会在每一次并购对话中占据上风，因为你有一个可行的选择，那就是什么也不做，坚持到底，你不必出售。

But of course that's not the case for most companies.

但当然，大多数公司的情况并非如此。

Most companies don't have a viable path to being an independent company forever.

大多数公司没有一条可行的途径永远成为一家独立公司。

So they have to think about M&A.

所以他们必须考虑并购。

So M&A is always about creating plan Bs.

因此，并购始终是制定备用计划。

Julia Schottenstein: And the way I would think about it is for any one company, there's only ever two to three buyers that find what you're building to be extremely strategic.

Julia Schottenstein：我的想法是，对于任何一家公司来说，只有两到三个买家认为你正在构建的产品具有极高的战略意义。

And the strategy that I would do and how do you get noticed is I would figure out the area that you bring a competitive advantage and I would inflict pain on that potential buyer.

我会采取的策略以及如何让你注意到你，我会找出你带来竞争优势的领域，然后给潜在买家带来痛苦。

Make it impossible for them to not notice you because that's when they're going to have their ears perk up and say, "Well, what's going on with this company?" We just bought this company Transform.

让他们不可能不注意到你，因为那时他们就会竖起耳朵说：“嗯，这家公司怎么了？”我们刚刚收购了 Transform 公司。

They are playing a really good playbook here.

他们在这里扮演了一个非常好的剧本。

Julia Schottenstein: And the really important piece here is you want to do that in a way that's still friendly and open.

Julia Schottenstein：这里真正重要的一点是你希望以一种仍然友好和开放的方式做到这一点。

I see a lot of founders get this wrong and they prematurely will shut down a conversation or they won't talk to an incumbent or a potential future buyer because they take too competitive of a stance.

我看到很多创始人都犯了这个错误，他们会过早地结束对话，或者不会与现任者或潜在的未来买家交谈，因为他们采取了过于竞争的立场。

But that's a mistake because M&A is all about creating plan Bs and you don't want to shut that door down prematurely because you don't know if you can really go the distance and be an independent company.

但这是一个错误，因为并购就是制定备用计划，你不想过早地关闭这扇门，因为你不知道你是否真的能走得更远，成为一家独立的公司。

So you want to have optionality.

所以你想要有选择性。

Lenny: I love this term with pain on your potential acquirers.

莱尼：我喜欢这个词，但同时也让你的潜在收购者感到痛苦。

What are some examples of that?

有哪些例子？

Who's done that well or what's an example of that interaction?

谁做得那么好或者这种互动的例子是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I mean I can share the transform stories of a company we just acquired, we announced it in February.

我的意思是我可以分享我们刚刚收购的一家公司的转型故事，我们在二月份宣布了这一消息。

So dbt Labs, we build transformations, that's our main product.

所以 dbt Labs，我们构建转换，这是我们的主要产品。

And we were venturing into a new product area that we call the semantic layer.

我们正在冒险进入一个新的产品领域，我们称之为语义层。

And to describe what that is quickly, it's allowing companies to define their business metrics and so that whenever anyone queries it, we always serve back consistent data on those business metrics and transform.

简而言之，它允许公司定义其业务指标，这样每当有人查询时，我们总是会提供有关这些业务指标的一致数据并进行转换。

They were a pure play company only in this metrics layer, semantic layer.

他们只是在这个指标层、语义层上是一家纯粹的公司。

And they had a really strong product.

他们有一个非常强大的产品。

Julia Schottenstein: They had figured out some of the technical challenges and they had solved it early on.

Julia Schottenstein：他们已经解决了一些技术挑战，并且很早就解决了。

They had the benefit of having worked at Airbnb, which and Airbnb in the data world is famous for having a really successful semantic layer metrics layer called Minerva.

他们受益于在 Airbnb 工作的经历，Airbnb 和数据世界中的 Airbnb 因拥有一个非常成功的语义层指标层（称为 Minerva）而闻名。

And what we had at dbt Labs is really good distribution and ecosystem, but we were a little behind in bringing a product to market and we felt that pressure from Transform because they were doing such a great job at being vocal and loud about how their semantic layer solves these really hard technical problems.

我们在 dbt Labs 拥有非常好的发行和生态系统，但我们在将产品推向市场方面有点落后，我们感受到了来自 Transform 的压力，因为他们在大声疾呼他们的语义层如何解决这些真正困难的技术问题方面做得非常出色。

Julia Schottenstein: But they didn't have any distribution.

Julia Schottenstein：但他们没有任何发行。

So that was really tough for them and they were putting pressure, but they were still positioning their company as a partner to us because they wanted our community to be excited about what they were building and hopefully lure them over to use their product.

所以这对他们来说真的很困难，他们施加了压力，但他们仍然将自己的公司定位为我们的合作伙伴，因为他们希望我们的社区对他们正在构建的东西感到兴奋，并希望吸引他们使用他们的产品。

So because they had positioned themselves as a friendly partner when really we were trying to compete for this similar use case, when it came time to do an acquisition, we were really excited because we knew their product was good and they had already done a lot of the work to make integrating with dbt possible and that helps us post acquisition do the integration much more easily.

因此，因为当我们真正尝试竞争类似的用例时，当需要进行收购时，他们将自己定位为友好的合作伙伴，因此我们非常兴奋，因为我们知道他们的产品很好，而且他们已经做了很多工作来实现与 dbt 的集成，这有助于我们在收购后更轻松地进行集成。

Lenny: How do you just think about either as a startup or even an incumbent about how to think about competition, how much emphasis, how much energy to put into thinking what competitors are doing and just how that informs your strategy?

莱尼：作为一家初创公司，甚至是一家老牌企业，你如何看待如何考虑竞争、需要多大程度地重视、投入多少精力来思考竞争对手正在做什么，以及这如何影响你的战略？

Julia Schottenstein: So we recently codified our philosophy when it comes to competition.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：所以我们最近在竞争方面制定了我们的理念。

And I'll give Nick Handel the founder of Transform who led this exercise at dbt Labs.

我将介绍 Transform 的创始人 Nick Handel，他在 dbt Labs 领导了这项工作。

But we really have three pillars when it comes to competition.

但在竞争方面，我们确实拥有三大支柱。

So the first is hold true to our vision.

因此，首先是坚持我们的愿景。

We're really excited about the path and the journey that we're going on at dbt Labs and we don't want the distraction.

我们对 dbt Labs 即将踏上的道路和旅程感到非常兴奋，我们不想受到干扰。

So occasionally you'll have competitors maybe throw shade or throw stones, but most of that is just noise.

因此，偶尔会有竞争对手扔阴影或扔石头，但大多数只是噪音。

If you have a lot of conviction that you're going in the right journey, you want to just keep your eyes straight ahead and run your best race and not be too distracted by what maybe some critics are saying.

如果你坚信自己走在正确的道路上，那么你只想保持目光直视前方，跑出最好的比赛，而不要被一些批评者的言论分散注意力。

Julia Schottenstein: The second philosophy we have is really a grow the pie philosophy.

Julia Schottenstein：我们的第二个哲学实际上是“做大馅饼”的哲学。

So we want to work with our partners in our ecosystem to make the opportunity set even larger and we see that today.

因此，我们希望与生态系统中的合作伙伴合作，创造更大的机会，我们今天就看到了这一点。

We mostly serve reporting and BI use cases, we're seeing lots of companies start to operationalize their data.

我们主要服务于报告和商业智能用例，我们看到许多公司开始运营他们的数据。

Now with this big wave of ML, clean Transform data assets are being used to train machine learning models so that the pie continues to grow.

现在，随着机器学习的大潮，干净的 Transform 数据资产被用来训练机器学习模型，以便蛋糕继续增长。

Let's focus on that as our target and work with people to make the opportunity set really attractive and not try to slice it up too thinly.

让我们专注于此作为我们的目标，并与人们合作，使机会集真正有吸引力，而不是试图将其分割得太细。

Julia Schottenstein: And then the last one is we want to lean into our strengths.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：最后一个是我们想要发挥我们的优势。

So we have an ambition to be a platform company and we know what we're good at, but we also want to leave space for our ecosystem to offer solutions to our users that help them out.

因此，我们有志成为一家平台公司，我们知道自己擅长什么，但我们也希望为我们的生态系统留出空间，为我们的用户提供解决方案，帮助他们摆脱困境。

And we really want to foster an ecosystem where we can partner with lots of companies in the modern data stack.

我们真的希望建立一个生态系统，让我们可以与现代数据堆栈中的许多公司合作。

And generally speaking, when it comes to competition, we take a really long-term view and there are a few areas that we do want to hold our ground and that's in our transformation standard as well as our semantic standard because we believe those two are better served together for the user's sake.

一般来说，在竞争方面，我们采取非常长远的眼光，并且有一些领域我们确实希望坚守阵地，这就是我们的转换标准和语义标准，因为我们相信为了用户的利益，这两者可以更好地结合在一起。

But for everything else, we really feel like we can work with our ecosystem and accomplish what we want to accomplish and also help them accomplish their goals too.

但对于其他一切，我们真的觉得我们可以与我们的生态系统合作，完成我们想要完成的事情，也帮助他们实现他们的目标。

Lenny: This might be a good time to just chat about dbt and the success the company has had.

Lenny：现在可能是谈论 dbt 和公司所取得的成功的好时机。

So many startups have tried to become a standard default layer of what's now called the modern data stack.

许多初创公司试图成为现在所谓的现代数据堆栈的标准默认层。

And I don't know any startup doesn't use dbt or planning to use dbt.

我不知道有哪家初创公司不使用 dbt 或计划使用 dbt。

It's just a incredibly rare success story somewhere to snowflake where it's just like it's the default for building large data startups and most startups these days work with a lot of data.

这只是一个极其罕见的成功故事，就像雪花一样，它就像是构建大数据初创公司的默认选择，而如今大多数初创公司都使用大量数据。

So my question is just like what do you think dbt did most right to win in this and continue to win?

所以我的问题是，你认为 dbt 在这场比赛中最有权利获胜并继续获胜的做法是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: So I think dbt did a lot of things right, but I'll point out too that really stick out to me.

Julia Schottenstein：所以我认为 dbt 做了很多正确的事情，但我也会指出对我来说真正突出的事情。

And the first is just power and simplicity and the second is a commitment to being open.

第一个是力量和简单性，第二个是对开放的承诺。

And I'll touch on what I mean by those two things.

我将谈谈这两件事的含义。

So when dbt was first getting started, you would hear a lot from companies, I don't understand, what's so special about dbt?

所以当dbt刚开始的时候，你会听到很多公司的声音，我不明白，dbt有什么特别之处？

We have a SQL templating tool at our company, we built one in-house.

我们公司有一个 SQL 模板工具，是我们内部构建的。

Like this is really straightforward and simple and it's true like dbt is really simple, but that is the power of it.

就像这真的很简单，而且 dbt 确实很简单，但这就是它的力量。

Julia Schottenstein: So our founders, Tristan, Drew and Connor, they had a belief that the people who do data analysis work, that really work closely with their business stakeholders should also be the ones to contribute to creating clean data assets in production because that data prep work is a necessary prerequisite for any analysis that you do.

Julia Schottenstein：因此，我们的创始人 Tristan、Drew 和 Connor 相信，真正与业务利益相关者密切合作的数据分析工作人员也应该为在生产中创建干净的数据资产做出贡献，因为数据准备工作是您所做的任何分析的必要先决条件。

So dbt was really this belief that if you know SQL, we want to invite you to do these workflows that were traditionally held by data engineers but you had to earn that.

所以 dbt 实际上是这样一种信念：如果你了解 SQL，我们想邀请你去做这些传统上由数据工程师负责的工作流程，但你必须赢得这些工作流程。

So dbt has this nice framework where it's harder to mess up, keeps data quality really high, but it is pretty simple to get started and learn and learn.

因此，dbt 有一个很好的框架，很难弄乱，保持数据质量非常高，但入门和学习又学习非常简单。

And that was really the unlock in the industry.

这确实是行业的解锁。

We were definitely solving a pain point at the right time.

我们确实在正确的时间解决了痛点。

Julia Schottenstein: And then the second thing is this commitment to being open.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：第二件事是对开放的承诺。

So dbt is open source and that's the main guts of dbt where you write your business logic and it helps in a number of ways.

所以 dbt 是开源的，这是 dbt 的主要内容，您可以在其中编写业务逻辑，并且它在很多方面都有帮助。

Specifically it helps with flywheel, keep the flywheel running and also with network effects.

具体来说，它有助于飞轮、保持飞轮运行以及网络效应。

And I'll explain what that looks like.

我将解释它是什么样的。

So dbt is really easy to get started with at your company with reduced friction.

因此，dbt 在您的公司非常容易上手，并且减少了摩擦。

We're building a product that people, so they talk about it, they want to share it both at their organization and with other companies.

我们正在开发一款人们喜欢的产品，所以他们会谈论它，他们希望在自己的组织和其他公司分享它。

Other companies get started with dbt again with reduced friction.

其他公司再次开始使用 dbt，以减少摩擦。

Julia Schottenstein: We now get to see this really diverse set of use cases for dbt across company sizes, across industries and it allows us to build a truly horizontal company.

Julia Schottenstein：我们现在看到了不同规模、不同行业的 dbt 用例，它使我们能够建立真正的横向公司。

As our company grows, we get to invest back into our community and our product and the flywheel begins to spin faster.

随着我们公司的发展，我们开始重新投资我们的社区和我们的产品，飞轮开始旋转得更快。

And then meanwhile we have a really large user base.

与此同时，我们拥有非常庞大的用户群。

So we have 20,000 companies using dbt every single week and that attracts partners to want to build for dbt and so they share best practices, build workflows, and now if you're a company and you've standardized on dbt, you've really unlocked an integrated modern data ecosystem that wasn't available for you before.

因此，我们每周都有 20,000 家公司使用 dbt，这吸引了合作伙伴想要为 dbt 进行构建，因此他们分享最佳实践、构建工作流程，现在，如果您是一家公司并且已经对 dbt 进行了标准化，那么您就真正解锁了以前无法使用的集成现代数据生态系统。

So that has a flywheel and also benefits everyone that decides to be on the standard.

因此，它有一个飞轮，也有利于每个决定采用该标准的人。

So it's those two really important trends that made dbt so powerful today.

因此，正是这两个非常重要的趋势使 dbt 今天如此强大。

Lenny: So what I'm hearing there is essentially the product was right for what people needed to solve.

莱尼：所以我听到的基本上是该产品适合人们需要解决的问题。

There's also a product led component, open source, free self-serve piece that people adopted, used and started working and then scaled and started paying for it.

还有一个以产品为主导的组件，开源、免费的自助服务，人们采用、使用并开始工作，然后扩展并开始付费。

And then there's an alignment of the vision of where this was going and how it fit with how people wanted this to work for them.

然后，我们的愿景是一致的，即它的发展方向以及它如何与人们希望它为他们服务的方式相适应。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Because a lot of startups do that and that all sounds really smart and good, but a lot of startups try to do those things and no one cares.

因为很多初创公司都这样做，这一切听起来都非常聪明和美好，但很多初创公司试图做这些事情，但没有人关心。

Maybe their product isn't necessarily what people are looking for, maybe they don't get the right distribution.

也许他们的产品不一定是人们正在寻找的，也许他们没有得到正确的分销。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Is there anything else that you think they did really well that helped them kickstart this to even be a thing?

您认为他们还有什么其他做得很好的事情可以帮助他们启动这件事吗？

Is it timing that was really great?

时机真的很棒吗？

Is it specific influencers early on?

是早期的特定影响者吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I think timing was really important with the success of dbt.

我认为时机对于 dbt 的成功非常重要。

That they were there when the cloud data warehouses were really exploding and growing in an enormous way.

当云数据仓库真正爆炸式增长并以巨大的方式增长时，它们就在那里。

And dbt Labs started as Fishtown Analytics, a consulting firm.

dbt Labs 最初是一家咨询公司 Fishtown Analytics。

So they worked really, really closely and hands-on with all of their consulting partners to get the pain point and really solve firsthand challenges that they saw.

因此，他们与所有咨询合作伙伴进行了非常非常密切的实际合作，以找出痛点并真正解决他们看到的第一手挑战。

I think that combination of being at the right place at the right time and also getting to work really closely with people's day-to-day problems created a really special experience.

我认为，在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，并与人们的日常问题密切合作，这两者相结合，创造了一种非常特别的体验。

Lenny: I didn't know that.

莱尼：我不知道。

That's a really important element of the story is basically they were focused...

这是故事的一个非常重要的元素，基本上他们的重点是......

How long did they do that Fishtown Analytics consultancy?

他们做 Fishtown Analytics 咨询服务花了多长时间？

Julia Schottenstein: Board consulting part of the business was almost two years.

Julia Schottenstein：董事会咨询部分业务持续了将近两年。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So they basically spent two years solving this problem basically manually for people, and that's such a great way to understand real pain and figure out how to solve it.

所以他们基本上花了两年时间基本上手动为人们解决这个问题，这是理解真正的痛苦并找出解决方法的好方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so that's a really interesting insight.

好的，这是一个非常有趣的见解。

Just spend a few years.

只需花费几年时间。

It sounds like it was almost manually helping people transform their data using whatever tools already existed.

听起来它几乎是手动帮助人们使用现有的任何工具转换数据。

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

Well, they were building dbt and using dbt to help them do their jobs better and supporting their clients.

嗯，他们正在构建 dbt 并使用 dbt 来帮助他们更好地完成工作并支持他们的客户。

And whenever they encountered paper cuts or friction or the workflow was taking longer than they expected, they would build that into dbt.

每当他们遇到剪纸或摩擦，或者工作流程花费的时间比预期更长时，他们都会将其纳入 dbt 中。

And that really matured the experience of the product because the people who were building it, the founders were also day-to-day working with these customers or clients that had pain points.

这确实使产品的体验更加成熟，因为构建该产品的人、创始人也在与这些有痛点的客户或客户进行日常合作。

Lenny: That reminds me of a story you told me about how you made your eng team do some manual work of an algorithm involved in transformation.

Lenny：这让我想起你告诉我的一个故事，关于你如何让你的工程团队对涉及转换的算法进行一些手动工作。

Can you share that?

你能分享一下吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Okay.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：好的。

So I'm going to preface this story by sharing that I'm a huge math nerd and one of my favorite books on logic is called Girdle Escher Bach.

因此，我将在这个故事的序言中分享我是一个巨大的数学迷，我最喜欢的一本关于逻辑的书是《Girdle Escher Bach》。

And in this book there's a fun scene where there's an ant farm that bands together to do the work of a computer flipping bits from zero to one to solve logic gates.

在这本书中，有一个有趣的场景，其中有一个蚂蚁农场联合起来完成计算机将位从零翻转到一的工作，以解决逻辑门问题。

So this chapter of that book was really the inspiration for an exercise that I ran my team through.

因此，这本书的这一章确实是我让我的团队进行一项练习的灵感来源。

So about a year ago we were doing a big zero to one new project at dbt Labs and we were going to change the algorithm for how we built customers data transformation graphs.

大约一年前，我们在 dbt Labs 做了一个从零到一的大型新项目，我们将改变构建客户数据转换图的算法。

And I needed a way for the team to really internalize all of the changes that we were going to be making and I needed them to own it because otherwise they wouldn't be able to anticipate all of the edge cases and it wouldn't be quite as durable.

我需要一种方法让团队真正内化我们将要做的所有改变，我需要他们拥有它，因为否则他们将无法预测所有的边缘情况，并且它不会那么持久。

You couldn't copy paste the algorithm.

您无法复制粘贴该算法。

Julia Schottenstein: So I showed up to a team offsite with a spool of rope and sticky notes and I think my team looked at me crazy, went with two heads when I started to tie people up to create a graph.

Julia Schottenstein：所以我带着一卷绳子和便签出现在场外的一个团队中，我想我的团队疯狂地看着我，当我开始把人们绑起来创建图表时，他们就带着两个头。

So each note of the graph was an engineer and the rope was the edges of the graph to connect them.

所以图表的每个音符都是一个工程师，绳子就是图表的边缘来连接它们。

And then we worked through the new algorithm extremely slowly, step by step.

然后我们一步一步极其缓慢地研究新算法。

And it was a way that you couldn't leave that exercise without knowing exactly what was going on because everyone had a role to play.

在这种方式下，你不能在不确切知道发生了什么的情况下离开该练习，因为每个人都可以发挥作用。

Julia Schottenstein: So I think a lot of times when you're starting something new, you get into a situation where a few people really understand it and they're running way ahead of the rest of the pack.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：所以我认为很多时候当你开始新事物时，你会遇到这样的情况：少数人真正理解它，并且他们远远领先于其他人。

But I needed a way for the whole team to go along for the journey.

但我需要一种让整个团队一起踏上这段旅程的方法。

So I'm constantly trying to create these important moments or memorable moments for the team so that it's centered around our mission and they can have the ownership of taking the project and making it successful.

因此，我不断尝试为团队创造这些重要时刻或难忘时刻，以便围绕我们的使命，让他们能够拥有承担该项目并使其成功的所有权。

So it was perhaps a overly creative or kooky way to spend the day, but it was really successful.

所以这也许是一种过于有创意或古怪的度过这一天的方式，但它确实很成功。

Lenny: What was the actual algorithm you were trying to implement?

Lenny：您尝试实现的实际算法是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: We were trying to figure out how to make flipping the way that we run people's dags from an imperative way to a declarative way.

Julia Schottenstein：我们试图弄清楚如何将我们运行人们的DAG的方式从命令式方式转变为声明式方式。

So instead of running things left to when data arrived in your warehouse.

因此，不要等到数据到达仓库时才运行剩下的事情。

You think about it as reverse, like what would need to happen to make your data SLAs be materialized in time.

您可以将其视为相反的情况，就像需要发生什么才能使您的数据 SLA 及时实现一样。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And sounds like the team found that valuable.

听起来团队发现这很有价值。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Reminds me of a clip from this last season of Ted Lasso where they have used red strings and I won't get into it, but if you've seen it you will know what I'm talking about.

让我想起了 Ted Lasso 上一季的一个片段，他们使用了红绳，我不会详细介绍它，但如果你看过它，你就会知道我在说什么。

I want to come back to your chatting about open source versus not open source.

我想回到你们关于开源与非开源的讨论。

So some part of dbt was is open source and some isn't.

所以 dbt 的某些部分是开源的，而另一些则不是。

I'm curious how the team decides what is open source and what should be open source, what isn't open source and what to charge for?

我很好奇团队如何决定什么是开源、什么应该开源、什么不开源以及什么收费？

Julia Schottenstein: We think about dbt open source.

Julia Schottenstein：我们考虑 dbt 开源。

It's really the guts of the data transformation.

这确实是数据转换的核心。

It's where you describe your business logic.

这是您描述业务逻辑的地方。

And then on the cloud side we build proprietary software that supercharges the development life cycle and the productionization of dbt at scale.

然后在云端，我们构建专有软件，以增强 dbt 的开发生命周期和大规模生产。

So what we think about as leaving for our cloud offering is we deal with state, so stateful interactions and also any cross team or structural collaboration.

因此，我们认为离开云产品的是我们处理状态、有状态的交互以及任何跨团队或结构协作。

We want to reserve that for our proprietary offering.

我们希望将其保留用于我们的专有产品。

And I think it's really important to have that distinction of what do you believe should be open source or what is the open standard that really matters?

我认为区分什么是你认为应该开源的或者什么是真正重要的开放标准是非常重要的？

And ecosystem to us is really important.

生态系统对我们来说非常重要。

So it's important that that remains open source, but then we want to supercharge that experience with an open core model and build proprietary software that makes people much more successful at using dbt.

因此，保持开源非常重要，但我们希望通过开放核心模型增强这种体验，并构建专有软件，使人们在使用 dbt 方面更加成功。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 AssemblyAI 为您带来的。

If you're looking to build AI powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.

如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。

What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top tier research labs.

我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问顶级研究实验室的最新人工智能突破。

Product team that startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content spoken and lots more.

产品团队表示，初创公司和企业正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话通话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、精确定位何时说出敏感内容等等。

All of AssemblyAI's models which are accessed through their API are production ready.

通过其 API 访问的所有 AssemblyAI 模型均已做好生产准备。

Lenny: So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.

Lenny：我认识的很多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 构建音频用例的最快方法。

Now's the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription plus valuable insights to your customers.

现在是时候了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松为您的客户带来最高精度的转录和有价值的见解。

Just like Spotify, CallRail and writer do for theirs.

就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 writer 所做的那样。

Visit assemblyai.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no code playground.

请访问 assemblyai.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用他们的无代码游乐场测试他们的模型。

That's assemblyai.com/lenny.

这是 assemblyai.com/lenny。

I know you also spent a lot of time thinking about pricing and willingness to pay and things along those lines.

我知道您也花了很多时间思考定价和支付意愿以及类似的事情。

Lenny: Is there anything you could share about which is what you've learned about how to think about pricing for a tool like this or even in general?

Lenny：关于如何考虑此类工具甚至一般工具的定价，您有什么可以分享的吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Pricing and willingness to pay is such a hard conversation and lots of startups don't do this early enough in their company journey.

Julia Schottenstein：定价和支付意愿是一个非常艰难的话题，许多初创公司在公司发展历程中没有尽早做到这一点。

Likely a side effect of zero interest rates where investors were happy funding GitHub stars and usage and companies never thought about how am I going to make revenue or make money, which is it's important.

这可能是零利率的副作用，投资者很高兴为 GitHub 明星和使用提供资金，而公司从未考虑过我将如何赚取收入或赚钱，这很重要。

So for us at dbt Labs, I don't claim to be perfect at it, but we're trying to get a better muscle around it.

因此，对于 dbt Labs 的我们来说，我并不声称自己在这方面很完美，但我们正在努力增强这方面的能力。

And I always think about Madhavan who wrote this book Pricing Innovation.

我总是想起写这本书《定价创新》的 Madhavan。

I know you've had him on the show before, but he shares that you don't get to decide if you're going to have a pricing or willingness to pay a conversation.

我知道你以前曾邀请他参加过节目，但他表示你无法决定是否要定价或是否愿意付费进行对话。

You only get to decide what.

你只需决定做什么。

So it's much better to have that conversation before you build the product than have it when your sales team's trying to sell something and people aren't excited about what you've built, aren't willing to pay for it.

因此，在构建产品之前进行这种对话比当您的销售团队试图销售某些产品而人们对您所构建的产品不感兴趣并且不愿意为此付费时进行对话要好得多。

Julia Schottenstein: And at dbt Labs we have this value, it's one of our core values that says we are more concerned with value creation than value capture.

Julia Schottenstein：在 dbt Labs，我们有这样的价值观，这是我们的核心价值观之一，它表明我们更关心价值创造而不是价值获取。

And we really mean this.

我们确实是这么想的。

When we talk about what is the value of dbt Labs to our customers, they often talk about how it's either 20 to 35% as valuable as what they spend on their cloud data warehouse.

当我们谈论 dbt Labs 对客户的价值时，他们经常谈论它的价值是他们在云数据仓库上花费的 20% 到 35%。

But what we charge our customers is a very small fraction of that 20 to 35% and that's by design.

但我们向客户收取的费用只是这 20% 至 35% 中的一小部分，而且这是有意设计的。

And last year we did our first ever pricing change in the company history and you learn a tremendous amount when you have that event because you get to test the price elasticity by of your customers.

去年，我们进行了公司历史上的第一次定价调整，当您举办该活动时，您会学到很多东西，因为您可以测试客户的价格弹性。

Julia Schottenstein: And it's so important to learn that lesson while the company is still smaller or the stakes are lower because pricing just is always evolving.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：当公司规模仍然较小或股份较低时，吸取教训非常重要，因为定价总是在变化。

It's not a fixed thing, it gets more complex over time.

这不是一个固定的事情，随着时间的推移它会变得更加复杂。

So we have to think about it quite a bit because my team builds proprietary software for dbt cloud and when we lose a deal we most often lose it to dbt open source and we like it that way.

所以我们必须好好考虑一下，因为我的团队为 dbt 云构建专有软件，当我们失去一笔交易时，我们通常会输给 dbt 开源，我们喜欢这样。

We're happy to lose to ourselves, but we have to really think very deeply about what are people willing to pay for and what moves the needle for them and focus on that.

我们很高兴输给自己，但我们必须真正深入思考人们愿意为什么付费，什么对他们有推动作用，并专注于此。

Lenny: I'm so curious what that pricing process was like to figure out what to change.

莱尼：我很好奇定价过程是什么样的，以找出需要改变的内容。

Is there anything you could share about just what that was for you or what are some just surprises that came out of that process or just like, "Wow, we didn't expect that in these conversations?"

你有什么可以分享的，关于这对你来说是什么，或者这个过程中出现的一些惊喜，或者就像，“哇，我们在这些对话中没有想到这一点？”

Julia Schottenstein: It's really like an all hands on deck conversation.

Julia Schottenstein：这真的就像一场全体人员齐心协力的对话。

Pricing is so cross-cutting because it's a finance discussion as well.

定价是如此跨领域，因为它也是一个财务讨论。

You're modeling out things in spreadsheets and figuring out how that might impact the business.

您正在电子表格中对事物进行建模，并弄清楚这可能会对业务产生怎样的影响。

But you can't just solve these problems in spreadsheets.

但您不能仅在电子表格中解决这些问题。

You have to go talk to customers, test the waters, understand where people's appetites are and sussing that out is really hard.

你必须去与客户交谈，试水，了解人们的胃口在哪里，而弄清楚这一点确实很难。

And then of course there's a product piece to it too where you have to affect it and communicate it as well.

当然，还有一个产品部分，你必须影响它并传达它。

So it was very cross-cutting.

所以这是非常交叉的。

We learned a lot.

我们学到了很多。

We track our conversion rates really carefully.

我们非常仔细地跟踪我们的转化率。

We track our turn rates very carefully and I think largely we were happy with the change that we made and we felt like one of the big things that we were trying to solve for was have our pricing catch up to how people valued the tool.

我们非常仔细地跟踪我们的周转率，我认为很大程度上我们对我们所做的改变感到满意，我们觉得我们试图解决的一件大事就是让我们的定价赶上人们对工具的评价。

Lenny: How many people did you end up talking to, who was doing these conversations and is there anything really important you learned about how to ask these questions and these sorts of leanness to pay conversations?

莱尼：您最终与多少人进行了交谈，谁在进行这些对话，关于如何提出这些问题以及这些付费对话的精益性，您学到了什么真正重要的东西吗？

Julia Schottenstein: So we talked to dozens.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：我们与数十人进行了交谈。

It was combination of product and product marketing, having the conversations and people aren't very willing to share explicitly what they will pay.

这是产品和产品营销的结合，进行对话，人们不太愿意明确分享他们将支付的费用。

But there's some tools that we use on relative value.

但我们使用一些工具来衡量相对价值。

People most think about what is the relative value of dbt in their cloud warehouse.

人们最关心的是dbt在他们的云仓库中的相对价值是多少。

And we also tried to employ some of the tactics that we tried to suss out what do people view as very inexpensive?

我们还尝试采用一些我们试图弄清楚人们认为非常便宜的东西的策略？

What's a price point that's very cheap or a no-brainer?

非常便宜或简单的价格点是多少？

What price point is maybe fair or comfortable for them and what would be too expensive?

什么价位对他们来说可能是公平或舒适的，什么价位会太贵？

And then we had all the data back to figure out where we landed.

然后我们拿回所有数据来确定我们着陆的地点。

Lenny: I want to come back to M&A for a bit.

莱尼：我想回过头来谈谈并购。

I had a few more questions there and I moved on from that.

我还有几个问题，然后我就继续讨论。

So again, you've done a lot of work within the M&A realm.

再说一遍，您在并购领域做了很多工作。

Something that I saw recently, and this connects to the fact that a lot of startups now are looking to get sold.

我最近看到的一些事情，与许多初创公司现在正在寻求出售的事实有关。

This VC hunter walk, he's a founder of Home Brew Ventures, had this interesting blog post where he basically suggested you should actually think about being public about the fact that you're selling your company.

这位风投猎人，他是 Home Brew Ventures 的创始人，发表了一篇有趣的博客文章，他基本上建议你实际上应该考虑公开你正在出售公司的事实。

Which is crazy because in the past you never want to come across as too selly.

这很疯狂，因为在过去你永远不想给人留下太卖弄的印象。

I don't want people to think I'm desperate.

我不想让人们认为我很绝望。

And his point is many startups are desperate right now and it's okay to be public about that.

他的观点是，许多初创公司现在都陷入了绝望，公开这一点是可以的。

And then in theory creates more of a bidding situation where many people know versus keeping it secret and in closed rooms.

从理论上讲，这会创造出更多人都知道的竞标情况，而不是在封闭的房间里保密。

So my question is just what do you think of that?

所以我的问题是你对此有何看法？

Do you think that's effective strategy?

您认为这是有效的策略吗？

Is it not?

不是吗？

Julia Schottenstein: I think it's good advice.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：我认为这是个好建议。

If you're in a Hail Mary situation where you're looking for a home or you need an exit for your business, it's better to be transparent and cast a wider net.

如果你正处于万福玛利亚的境地，你正在寻找一个家，或者你的生意需要退出，那么最好保持透明并撒下更广泛的网。

And you're right, in previous times founders tried to be a little bit cute or obfuscate that they were evasive the situation that they were in because they wanted to drum up some competitive interest when there really wasn't any.

你是对的，在以前，创始人试图表现得有点可爱或困惑，他们回避自己所处的情况，因为他们想在实际上没有任何竞争兴趣的情况下吸引一些竞争兴趣。

But unfortunately in today's climate, too many companies are in that spot so it's impossible to hide it.

但不幸的是，在当今的环境下，太多的公司都处于这种境地，所以不可能隐藏它。

So the better approach is just to be transparent and I see it pretty regularly and there's absolutely no shame in sending a note that says something like, "Hey, we're looking for an exit for our company X, Y, and Z didn't pan out as we expected.

因此，更好的方法就是保持透明，我经常看到这种情况，发送一张纸条，上面写着“嘿，我们正在为我们公司 X、Y 和 Z 寻找出口，但结果并不如我们预期的那样，这绝对没有什么可耻的。

We built a really interesting product and we want to keep the team together.

我们开发了一个非常有趣的产品，我们希望让团队保持团结。

We're running a process.

我们正在运行一个流程。

Are you interested?" Really just as simple as that.

你有兴趣吗？”真的就是这么简单。

Lenny: I've seen a lot of companies put together these really detailed decks or even websites of just like, here's the team, here's what we built to be very promotional about it.

莱尼：我见过很多公司把这些非常详细的演示文稿甚至网站放在一起，就像，这是团队，这是我们为了宣传它而建立的东西。

Is that something you've seen?

这是你见过的东西吗？

Is that something you'd recommend?

这是你推荐的吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

Usually in these situations people are acquiring the teams and so having your data room together, really the most important thing is these are the team members that are going to come along with the acquisition is the biggest motivator for why a buyer would get excited.

通常在这些情况下，人们会收购团队，因此将数据室放在一起，实际上最重要的是这些团队成员将随着收购而来，这是买家感到兴奋的最大动力。

Lenny: You made this point earlier that a lot of the seeds need to be planted early for you to have the best outcome.

莱尼：您之前说过，需要尽早播下很多种子才能获得最好的结果。

And this reminded me...

这让我想起了...

So I had a startup local mine that we sold to Airbnb and I met Airbnb initially at a year before we actually started exploring the process at a random party at South by Southwest where I was, I actually have no memory of this party, but the head of product at Airbnb, Joe bought, remembered it and came back to us a year later and just like, "Hey, what are you guys up to?

所以我在当地有一个初创公司，我们把它卖给了 Airbnb，我最初认识 Airbnb 是在一年前，我们在西南偏南的一个随机聚会上开始探索这个过程，我当时在那里，我实际上对这个聚会没有任何记忆，但是 Airbnb 的产品负责人 Joe 购买了，记住了它，一年后回到我们身边，就像，“嘿，你们在做什么？

Maybe we could collaborate on some stuff," and that led to an acquisition.

也许我们可以在一些事情上进行合作，”这导致了一次收购。

So I think that's just wanted to touch a ban on that point of just the power of, the way I thought about it is let a thousand flowers bloom, just like meet everyone.

所以我觉得那只是想触及禁制那点的力量而已，我的想法就是让千花齐放，就像遇见每个人一样。

Get the word out that you're around and what you're doing so that in the future when someone has that problem they're like, "That company, maybe we should talk to them."

宣传你在附近以及你正在做什么，这样将来当有人遇到这个问题时，他们就会说：“那家公司，也许我们应该和他们谈谈。”

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah, you want to make sure that the buyer knows who you are before the acquisition moment and hopefully that's because you've made an impact and they like what you're building.

Julia Schottenstein：是的，你想确保买家在收购之前知道你是谁，希望这是因为你已经产生了影响并且他们喜欢你正在建造的东西。

Maybe you've inflicted some pain on them.

也许你给他们带来了一些痛苦。

But yeah, certainly creating those connections well ahead of an exit event is important.

但是，是的，在退出事件之前建立这些联系当然很重要。

Lenny: And specifically there it's meet people at your competitors potentially.

莱尼：特别是在那里，它可能会与你的竞争对手的人见面。

For us, Airbnb was never even a potential company we would sell to because it had nothing to do with it but ended up making sense down the road.

对我们来说，Airbnb 甚至从来都不是一家我们愿意出售的潜在公司，因为它与我们无关，但最终却变得有意义。

What's like the realm of the companies and people that you think people should think about meeting?

您认为人们应该考虑会见的公司和人员的领域是什么样的？

Julia Schottenstein: If the company is buying a lot or they're active, they often have corp dev teams and so use that corp dev team to your advantage.

Julia Schottenstein：如果公司购买很多或者他们很活跃，他们通常会有公司开发团队，因此可以利用该公司开发团队来发挥你的优势。

It's their job to meet absolutely every company that could be potentially interested.

他们的工作就是与所有可能感兴趣的公司会面。

So take that meeting, say you're not interested in an acquisition just yet, but push them to make an introduction to someone that could sponsor the deal.

因此，参加这次会议时，假设您对收购尚不感兴趣，但敦促他们向可以赞助该交易的人介绍。

So usually that's someone in product or maybe a GM and use that as a starting point for maybe just a conversation, maybe something more like a partnership but get the corp dev team to work for you.

因此，通常是产品部门的某个人，或者可能是总经理，并以此为起点，也许只是一次对话，也许更像是一种合作伙伴关系，但让公司开发团队为你工作。

Lenny: What if you're at the other end of the spectrum and you're in dire straits right now and you're just like, "Man, what do we do to potentially sell this company?" I know odds are not going to be great, but just what do you suggest folks do in terms of I guess finding connections to potential companies that might be acquirers?

莱尼：如果你处于另一个极端，现在正处于水深火热之中，你会想：“伙计，我们该怎么做才能出售这家公司呢？”我知道可能性不会很大，但你建议人们做什么来寻找与可能成为收购者的潜在公司的联系？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I mean use your network.

我的意思是使用你的网络。

Usually your venture capitalist has a really big network and one of the things that I hear founders feeling the most nervous about is a duty to return the money to the investors.

通常你的风险投资家拥有一个非常大的网络，我听说创始人感到最紧张的事情之一就是将资金返还给投资者的责任。

And maybe this is a unpopular thing to say on a podcast, but your investors understand that they're not making their money back.

也许在播客上说这句话不受欢迎，但你的投资者明白他们没有赚回钱。

And what they want to do instead is have you end up at a really great company like an Airbnb because that will help them down the road.

相反，他们想做的是让你最终加入像 Airbnb 这样真正伟大的公司，因为这将帮助他们走上这条路。

So it's all about the long game, but use your investors to help you find connections at different companies that could be buying and don't worry so much about disappointing them or being really realistic about where you are in your company journey.

因此，这一切都是为了长远的目标，但要利用你的投资者来帮助你找到可能购买的不同公司的联系，不要太担心让他们失望，也不要太担心你在公司发展历程中所处的位置。

Lenny: To build on that, I'm just an angel investor, I'm not like the lead fund and they feel differently I imagine.

莱尼：在此基础上，我只是一名天使投资人，我不像牵头基金，而且我想象他们的感受也不同。

But the last thing I want for a founders to get stuck at a company they hate and just so that they could return some money or have some outcome rather they just give up, move on.

但我最不希望创始人陷入一家他们讨厌的公司，只是为了返还一些钱或取得一些成果，而不是放弃，继续前进。

Life is short.

生命是短暂的。

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I think founders forget that it is so risky investing in early stage companies that 50% of portfolios investments don't return anything.

我认为创始人忘记了，投资早期公司风险太大，50% 的投资组合不会带来任何回报。

And that's just part of the game and it's a very acceptable path where hey, we gave it our best shot.

这只是游戏的一部分，这是一条非常可接受的道路，嘿，我们尽了最大努力。

It didn't work out and moving on.

它没有成功并继续前进。

Lenny: Which is tough a lot of times for founders that are told like it's all about grit and not giving up and don't quit.

莱尼：对于创始人来说，很多时候这很艰难，因为他们被告知这一切都取决于勇气，不放弃，不放弃。

Sometimes you should quit.

有时你应该放弃。

Julia Schottenstein: Gosh, yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：天哪，是的。

I don't want to say that.

我不想这么说。

I think being founders, it's an extremely lonely role sometimes and it is very hard to know what your next chapter will look like or what the journey will look like and sometimes you really are out of cash and you do have to find a home.

我认为作为创始人，有时这是一个非常孤独的角色，很难知道你的下一个篇章会是什么样子，或者旅程会是什么样子，有时你真的没有现金，你必须找到一个家。

But I hope that you can continue to fight and find a way forward.

但我希望你能继续奋斗，找到前进的方向。

Lenny: Agreed.

莱尼：同意。

Specifically for people thinking about selling their company, are there any companies you think are good companies for people to look at right now that are actively acquiring or open to M&A?

特别是对于那些考虑出售公司的人来说，您认为目前有哪些公司值得人们关注，并且正在积极收购或对并购持开放态度？

Julia Schottenstein: This is a tough one.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：这是一项艰难的任务。

I think a lot of companies are on the sidelines for a number of reasons.

我认为很多公司出于多种原因都处于观望状态。

And they could be on the sidelines because they just did an acquisition and they're trying to digest or integrate that company.

他们可能会袖手旁观，因为他们刚刚进行了一次收购，并且正在尝试消化或整合该公司。

They could be on the sidelines because they're not growing headcount as much and M&A is often org chart gymnastics of folding the target companies headcount into your budget and plan and maybe just don't have a lot of space.

他们可能会袖手旁观，因为他们的员工数量没有增加那么多，而并购通常是组织结构图的练习，将目标公司的员工数量纳入你的预算和计划，可能只是没有太多空间。

Or probably more common right now is there's just a general uncertainty about the future.

或者现在更常见的情况可能是对未来普遍存在不确定性。

And in highly volatile markets people want to take care of their own and even the best M&A deals at a level of complexity that a lot of buyers are just not looking to take on right now.

在高度波动的市场中，人们希望处理好自己的交易，甚至是最好的并购交易，其复杂程度是许多买家目前不愿意承担的。

Julia Schottenstein: So there are a number of reasons why people might sit out, but what I would do if I were in a position of wanting to sell my company is I would come up with a buyer set of maybe a dozen and really there aren't more than a dozen companies that will find what you're doing to be a very good fit.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：所以人们可能会袖手旁观的原因有很多，但如果我想要出售我的公司，我会做的是，我会找到一组可能有十几个买家，而且实际上没有超过十几家公司会发现你正在做的事情非常合适。

Start with your buyer set and then start calling the list by looking at some of the criteria that might count people out.

从您的买家集开始，然后通过查看一些可能将人员排除在外的标准来开始调用列表。

And then go have those conversations.

然后去进行这些对话。

And if you're in a Hail Mary situation, be very transparent about it.

如果你遇到了万福玛利亚的情况，请对此保持透明。

Maybe open up the buyer list.

也许打开买家名单。

But if you still have some room, I would maybe focus on two to three partner or buyers and really play a different playbook, which is inflict pain.

但如果你还有一些空间，我可能会专注于两到三个合作伙伴或买家，并真正采取不同的策略，这会造成痛苦。

Make it really hard for them to not notice you but do it with a smile and be friendly at while you do that.

让他们很难不注意到你，但在你这样做时要微笑并保持友好。

Lenny: Sometimes with M&A discussions, there's a lot of subtlety to the way you communicate where you don't come out and be like, please we'd love to sell our company to you.

莱尼：有时在并购讨论中，你的沟通方式有很多微妙之处，你不会站出来说，我们很乐意将我们的公司卖给你。

Any advice on just the phrasing and how to approach it or do you think it's just, it's fine, just tell us we're looking to sell our company.

如果您对措辞以及如何处理它有任何建议，或者您认为这只是，没关系，请告诉我们我们正在寻求出售我们的公司。

Are you interested in being buyer?

您有兴趣成为买家吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I just wouldn't be too clever here.

我只是不会在这里太聪明。

Everyone understands like I'm evaluating strategic alternatives.

每个人都明白我正在评估战略选择。

It means you're looking to sell your company and it depends.

这意味着您正在寻求出售您的公司，这取决于情况。

Do you have time?

你有时间吗？

If you have time, yeah.

如果你有时间的话，是的。

Don't come out and say, "Hey, I'm for sale." That's not going to end up in a good outcome.

不要出来说：“嘿，我要出售。”这不会有一个好的结果。

But depends where you are in your company journey.

但这取决于您在公司旅程中所处的位置。

If you have time, then don't talk about M&A at all.

如果你有时间，那就干脆别谈并购了。

That's the last thing that you want to speak about.

这是你最不想谈的事情。

Instead, you're talking about maybe collaborating or partnerships.

相反，您可能谈论的是合作或伙伴关系。

How do we work together?

我们如何一起工作？

Knowledge sharing and M&A is a dirty word if you have a lot of runway and you're going to try to continue to pursue an independent path, but if you're out of time, you're out of time.

如果你有很多跑道并且你打算继续追求独立的道路，那么知识共享和并购就是一个肮脏的词，但如果你没时间了，你就没有时间了。

Lenny: That's such good advice.

莱尼：这真是个好建议。

I remember the term we used was we want to explore a strategic partnership and everyone's just like, I knows what you mean by that, but you just don't want to say it.

我记得我们使用的术语是我们想要探索战略合作伙伴关系，每个人都说，我知道你的意思，但你只是不想说出来。

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

It's like everyone in the room's looking like yeah.

好像房间里的每个人都看起来是的。

Okay.

好的。

Strategic partnership or a strategic alternative, it's like we all know these code words and we understand the situation you're in.

战略合作伙伴关系或战略替代方案，就像我们都知道这些暗语并且我们了解您所处的情况。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

When do you think M&A market might pick up again?

您认为并购市场何时会再次回暖？

I know it's impossible to predict.

我知道这是不可能预测的。

Do you have any sense?

你有道理吗？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

I wish I had a magic ball.

我希望我有一个魔法球。

That'd be pretty sweet.

那会很甜蜜。

I think what is happening though is we're far enough out from the peak of the markets.

我认为目前正在发生的情况是，我们距离市场的顶峰还很远。

So the peak was really November of 2021.

所以高峰确实是在 2021 年 11 月。

And why does that matter?

为什么这很重要？

Two things.

有两件事。

One, founders are coming to terms with valuations that they maybe received at the highest of the market, are no longer going to hold in this market and companies are out of cash or maybe out of options.

第一，创始人正在接受他们可能在市场最高水平获得的估值，不再在这个市场上持有，公司已经没有现金或者可能没有选择权。

We'll be better assets entering the market soon.

我们很快就会有更好的资产进入市场。

And at a certain point the opportunities will just be too great.

到了某个时候，机会就会变得太大了。

That will incentivize a lot of the buyers that have been on the bench to start participating again in the M&A market.

这将激励许多一直坐在替补席上的买家再次开始参与并购市场。

And I don't know exactly when that will be, but I think we're pretty close.

我不知道确切的时间，但我认为我们已经非常接近了。

I think we're pretty close.

我认为我们已经很接近了。

Lenny: And you mentioned a value that you have at dbt.

Lenny：您提到了 dbt 的价值。

I forget exactly what it was, but I'm curious what are the other values that you have at dbt, whatever you can share.

我忘记了具体是什么，但我很好奇你在 dbt 的其他价值观是什么，无论你能分享什么。

Always curious what principles and values companies come down to help drive the way they think.

总是好奇公司会遵循哪些原则和价值观来帮助推动他们的思维方式。

Julia Schottenstein: The value that I shared is we are more concerned with value creation than value capture and that really drives everything that we do.

Julia Schottenstein：我分享的价值观是，我们更关心价值创造而不是价值获取，这确实推动了我们所做的一切。

We try to put a lot of good out into the world and it pays back slowly.

我们努力为世界带来很多美好，但回报却很慢。

The whole mission of dbt Labs is to help analytics engineers disseminate organizational knowledge through data.

dbt Labs 的全部使命是帮助分析工程师通过数据传播组织知识。

So we really believe also being participants of sharing that information and getting more people knowledgeable about all sorts of things.

因此，我们坚信，我们也应该成为分享信息的参与者，让更多的人了解各种事情。

Julia Schottenstein: Transparency wins.

Julia Schottenstein：透明度获胜。

We're a really transparent company.

我们是一家非常透明的公司。

We share our board decks.

我们共享我们的棋盘。

We have lots of communication and participation in all of our Slacks.

我们所有的休闲裤都有大量的沟通和参与。

We're writing culture.

我们正在书写文化。

We have hard conversations in the open.

我们在公开场合进行了艰难的对话。

So that's another a big one.

这是另一件大事。

Transparency always wins.

透明总是胜利。

We are humble.

我们很谦虚。

We don't ever feel like we are successful.

我们从来不觉得自己是成功的。

We come at this from a very humble space where we feel like we have to serve our community and our users and that really motivates us.

我们来自一个非常简陋的空间，我们觉得我们必须为我们的社区和用户服务，这确实激励了我们。

And then another one is just work done well as its own end and it's really focusing on the journey and not the end destination.

然后，另一个只是把工作做得好作为自己的目的，它真正关注的是旅程而不是最终目的地。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I want to do a post someday of just like, here's the values all these different successful companies have come to and see if there's any patterns.

我想有一天发表一篇文章，就像这样，这是所有这些不同的成功公司所遵循的价值观，看看是否有任何模式。

I'm actually doing a post right now on Snowflake and on Figma and what you touched on.

事实上，我现在正在写一篇关于 Snowflake 和 Figma 以及你提到的内容的帖子。

There's such a connection and a thread of obsessing with your users and making sure they're happy at Figma.

有这样一种联系和一条线索，让您的用户着迷并确保他们对 Figma 感到满意。

I forget exactly what it is, but it's just like in this article, it's going to come out tomorrow actually.

我忘记具体是什么了，但就像这篇文章一样，实际上明天就会出来。

So people get a sense of when we recorded this where they think of their company as software as a service where service is their number one goal.

因此，当我们记录这一点时，人们会感觉到他们认为他们的公司是软件即服务，其中服务是他们的首要目标。

They actually provide service and software is just a way to do that.

他们实际上提供服务，而软件只是做到这一点的一种方式。

And then it's Snowflake.

然后是雪花。

Their number one core value is put customers first and they talk a lot about how they just actually informs their prioritization all I think, and all their thinking.

他们的首要核心价值观是将客户放在第一位，他们谈论了很多关于他们如何真正告知他们的优先顺序的所有我的想法和所有的想法。

So it's interesting.

所以这很有趣。

That also comes up a lot in what you're talking about, which I think it's easy to say, but I think what actually separates companies that succeed is they actually put this into practice.

这在你所谈论的内容中也经常出现，我认为这很容易说，但我认为真正成功的公司的区别在于他们实际上将其付诸实践。

Julia Schottenstein: It's really interesting too because a lot of the people who work at dbt Labs came from the community, so they feel this real ownership in making the experience an excellent one because they were so compelled to come join dbt Labs because the product changed the way that they work or changed their lives.

Julia Schottenstein：这也很有趣，因为很多在 dbt Labs 工作的人都来自社区，所以他们感受到这种真正的主人翁精神，使体验成为一种出色的体验，因为他们被迫加入 dbt Labs，因为该产品改变了他们的工作方式或改变了他们的生活。

So that commitment to the community and product experience is really, really strong.

因此，对社区和产品体验的承诺非常非常强烈。

Lenny: This isn't another thread.

莱尼：这不是另一个话题。

Maybe we'll go down real quick.

也许我们会很快就下去。

I'm working on a different post around Reddit and how to work with really opinionated users that strong opinions about changes to the product and the way they described it, these guys were there for five years working with the community on the product.

我正在 Reddit 上写一篇不同的文章，讨论如何与真正固执己见的用户合作，这些用户对产品的变化以及他们描述产品的方式有强烈的意见，这些人已经在产品社区与社区合作了五年。

Is that to your users, the product is their baby, basically.

对于你的用户来说，产品基本上就是他们的宝贝。

It's like they think it's theirs versus the companies.

就好像他们认为这是他们的，而不是公司的。

And I'm curious, having a really strong opinionated community, what it sounds like you also have, what have you learned about just working with them to build product that makes them happy and avoid revolts and really upsetness?

我很好奇，拥有一个非常强大的固执己见的社区，听起来你也有什么，你从与他们合作构建让他们快乐并避免反抗和真正不安的产品中学到了什么？

Julia Schottenstein: It's hard as you grow.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：随着你的成长，这会变得很困难。

I think it's just a challenge cause our community gets bigger.

我认为这只是一个挑战，因为我们的社区变得越来越大。

You can't service everybody's needs.

你无法满足所有人的需求。

But I think what we've done is everyone is very deep in our own product.

但我认为我们所做的是每个人都对我们自己的产品非常深入。

I think one of the cool stats is at dbt Labs we have over 30% of our employee headcount has contributed to our data transformation workflow.

我认为最酷的统计数据之一是 dbt Labs，我们有超过 30% 的员工为我们的数据转换工作流程做出了贡献。

So that's across every discipline.

这适用于每个学科。

It's in obviously product, obviously in our data team.

显然是在产品中，显然在我们的数据团队中。

Our marketing team also contributes to data transformation.

我们的营销团队还为数据转换做出了贡献。

And our engineering team will also contribute to our internal dbt analytics project and that sense of really understanding what the experience is like and then soliciting as much feedback as we possibly can.

我们的工程团队还将为我们的内部 dbt 分析项目做出贡献，并帮助我们真正理解体验是什么样的，然后尽可能多地征求反馈。

We have a dbt Slack community of 50,000 and all of our employees are in that Slack channel regularly and can feel when we mess up or we don't quite deliver an experience that we're proud of, you will just see dozens of people trying to jump on board and try to make it better.

我们有一个由 50,000 人组成的 dbt Slack 社区，我们所有的员工都会定期进入该 Slack 频道，并且可以感觉到，当我们搞砸了或者我们没有完全提供我们引以为豪的体验时，您只会看到数十人试图加入并试图让它变得更好。

Lenny: Is there any other frameworks or just general processes that you found to be release useful in building awesome product running teams?

Lenny：您是否发现有任何其他框架或一般流程可以在构建出色的产品运行团队方面发挥作用？

Julia Schottenstein: I'm not a big framework person, but there's two sayings that I find myself repeating or I either to myself or to others.

Julia Schottenstein：我不是一个大框架人，但有两句话我发现自己在重复，或者我对自己或他人。

And it's worse is better and tech debt is a champagne problem.

越坏越好，科技债务是一个香槟问题。

And what do I mean by that?

我这是什么意思？

It's really to help me combat this perfectionism because perfect doesn't exist and you should instead go with good enough because when you ship, that's the moment when you get to learn a lot from your users and you just can't anticipate it.

这真的是为了帮助我对抗这种完美主义，因为完美并不存在，你应该选择足够好的，因为当你发布时，就是你从用户那里学到很多东西的时刻，而你只是无法预料。

You try very hard to understand exactly how people will use the product and get all the edges ironed out.

你非常努力地准确了解人们将如何使用该产品并解决所有问题。

But you can't until you ship.

但在发货之前你不能这样做。

And I'll share an example.

我将分享一个例子。

So my team helps support the dbt cloud scheduler and the initial version of the dbt cloud scheduler was pretty naive.

因此，我的团队帮助支持 dbt 云调度程序，而 dbt 云调度程序的初始版本非常幼稚。

We were a little embarrassed by it.

我们对此感到有点尴尬。

Julia Schottenstein: It was a big old for loop over a big old jobs table.

Julia Schottenstein：这是一个大旧的 for 循环，覆盖了一个大的旧作业表。

So we would look like is it time for this job to run?

那么我们看看这个作业是时候运行了吗？

Okay.

好的。

Yes, run this job.

是的，运行这个作业。

Okay.

好的。

It's not time for this job to run next, continue on.

接下来还不是该作业运行的时间，继续。

Is it time?

时间到了吗？

Yes, run this job.

是的，运行这个作业。

And it would just loop over and it's extremely naive and very simple, but it got the job done.

它只会循环，非常天真且非常简单，但它完成了工作。

And I try to remind the engineers, we would be so lucky to have tech debt because that means people are using the product.

我试图提醒工程师，如果我们有技术债务，我们会很幸运，因为这意味着人们正在使用该产品。

And now we've had to rebuild our scheduler several times over because we do have meaningful scale.

现在我们不得不多次重建我们的调度程序，因为我们确实具有有意义的规模。

We have 8,000 companies using our scheduler.

有 8,000 家公司使用我们的调度程序。

We have to manage 10 million runs per month.

我们每月必须管理 1000 万次运行。

But what we didn't need at launch was a distributed scheduler with coworkers and RabbitMQ.

但我们在发布时不需要的是带有同事和 RabbitMQ 的分布式调度程序。

We just didn't need it because we had no users.

我们只是不需要它，因为我们没有用户。

So these two sayings that worse is better and tech debt is a champagne problem, just really reminds people like, let's ship, let's get it out into the user's hands and then we'll learn and iterate and it'll be a better experience for them.

因此，这两句话“更糟就是更好”和“技术债务是一个香槟问题”，只是真正提醒人们，让我们发货，让我们把它交到用户手中，然后我们将学习和迭代，这对他们来说将是更好的体验。

Lenny: That's a good segue to my last question.

莱尼：这是我最后一个问题的一个很好的延续。

So weren't a PM before this role.

所以在担任这个职位之前我并不是一名产品经理。

You have strong experience in investing, investment banking business in general.

您在投资、投资银行业务方面拥有丰富的经验。

I'm curious what you think product managers should maybe focus on more or learn more or lean into to become stronger product leaders based on the experience you've had moving into product.

我很好奇，根据您进入产品的经验，您认为产品经理应该更多地关注、了解更多或倾向于成为更强大的产品领导者。

Julia Schottenstein: So I pull a lot on my experience or some of the things that I did was as an investor in my current role in product.

Julia Schottenstein：所以我借鉴了我的经验，或者说我作为投资者在目前的产品角色中所做的一些事情。

And maybe I'll touch on what is the scale of a venture capitalist might be a little bit foreign for people, but venture capitalists, they spend all their day meeting lots of different companies, context switching.

也许我会谈到风险投资家的规模对人们来说可能有点陌生，但是风险投资家，他们整天都在与许多不同的公司会面，进行环境切换。

They have to know a little bit about quite a lot of different things.

他们必须对很多不同的事情有所了解。

And they do this to refine their investment tastes or find their investor judgment.

他们这样做是为了完善自己的投资品味或找到投资者的判断力。

And they're also investing a lot in their network and connecting people, supporting people, and mining people for ideas that are way smarter than they are.

他们还在自己的网络上投入了大量资金，连接人们、支持人们，并挖掘人们的想法，这些想法比他们聪明得多。

So you do that all the time in Venture and I've brought a lot of those skills with me into product and it translates really well.

所以你在风险投资中一直这样做，我把很多这些技能带入了产品中，并且转化得非常好。

Julia Schottenstein: The first is I still spend a lot of time investing in my network and I think it's an underrated way for a PM to spend their time.

Julia Schottenstein：首先，我仍然花很多时间投资我的网络，我认为对于产品经理来说，这是一种被低估的打发时间的方式。

And I try to build a network of operators at other companies that are like dbt Labs that are growing nicely, maybe a little bit ahead of where we are.

我尝试在其他公司（例如 dbt Labs）建立一个运营商网络，这些公司发展得很好，也许比我们领先一点。

And I ask them questions, how did you navigate open source?

我问他们问题，你们是如何驾驭开源的？

How did you navigate pricing?

您是如何进行定价的？

How did you navigate acquisitions?

您是如何进行收购的？

And then I take the best ideas, figure out which ones I can apply and bring it back to dbt Labs.

然后我会采纳最好的想法，找出可以应用的想法并将其带回 dbt Labs。

The second thing is I really think my special T or my superpower is that I'm a T-shaped generalist.

第二件事是我真的认为我的特殊T或我的超能力是我是一个T型多面手。

So I know a little about a lot of things from finance to business to product.

所以我对很多事情都了解一点，从金融到商业再到产品。

I have to go a lot deeper in product in the areas that I specialize in.

我必须在我擅长的领域更深入地研究产品。

That's where the tail of the tea comes in.

这就是茶尾的作用。

But it's precisely because I've had a diverse background that makes me more effective when I'm trying to get things done within the organization.

但正是因为我拥有多元化的背景，这让我在尝试在组织内完成工作时更加高效。

Because I have just more credible experiences that I can pull from.

因为我有更可靠的经验可以借鉴。

Julia Schottenstein: And then the last thing that I think maybe doesn't show up day to day in my product work, but in investing, you're constantly thinking about risk and the power laws, and we touched on this before, but most investments don't work out.

Julia Schottenstein：我认为最后一件事可能不会出现在我的日常产品工作中，但在投资中，你会不断地思考风险和幂律，我们之前谈到过这一点，但大多数投资都没有成功。

You lose the dollars that you put in, but all the returns come from these rare events that make up for all the losses.

你损失了投入的美元，但所有回报都来自这些弥补所有损失的罕见事件。

You have to think about what are the uncapped upside opportunities in investing.

你必须考虑投资中有哪些无限的上升机会。

And I think in product, you still have to do the same thing.

我认为在产品方面，你仍然必须做同样的事情。

If 50% of the things I worked on went to zero, we'd have a problem.

如果我所做的 50% 的工作归零，我们就会遇到问题。

But it encourages me to continue to make bets for the company that has the chance of bending the trajectory of our business.

但这鼓励我继续押注于有机会改变我们业务轨迹的公司。

Lenny: We've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: Okay.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：好的。

So two books that helped me learn a lot about myself.

所以两本书帮助我更多地了解了自己。

Range, it's a book about generalist and also Quiet, it's a book about introverts.

Range，这是一本关于通才的书，而Quiet，这是一本关于内向者的书。

And then I like a lot of biographies.

然后我喜欢很多传记。

So a few of my favorites are Snowball about Warren Buffet, Made in America, about Sam Walton and Leonardo da Vinci.

所以我最喜欢的一些是关于沃伦·巴菲特的《雪球》、关于山姆·沃尔顿和莱昂纳多·达·芬奇的《美国制造》。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: So I almost watched a movie in preparation for this podcast, but I really don't watch things except in the holiday.

Julia Schottenstein：为了准备这个播客，我几乎看了一部电影，但除了假期我真的不看东西。

During the holidays, I like Succession, but I have not seen the latest season.

假期期间，我喜欢《继承》，但还没看最新一季。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

You're in store for a treat.

您正在等待款待。

Favorite interview question you like to ask?

您最喜欢问的面试问题是？

Julia Schottenstein: When's the last time you had to teach yourself something new and how'd you do it?

Julia Schottenstein：你最后一次自学新东西是什么时候？你是怎么做的？

So I like to test for growth mindset and a thirst for learning.

所以我喜欢测试成长心态和学习渴望。

And then also why dbt Labs.

还有为什么选择 dbt Labs。

I think a lot of people who come to dbt Labs have very authentic reasons why they're drawn to the company.

我认为很多来到 dbt Labs 的人都有非常真实的理由来吸引他们。

And in moments where in things are tough, it's the answer to that question of why are you here, it's going to make all the difference.

在事情艰难的时刻，这是你为什么在这里这个问题的答案，这将使一切变得不同。

Lenny: And sounds like what you look for is just like an genuine enthusiasm.

莱尼：听起来你所寻找的就是真正的热情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What are some favorite products you recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现哪些您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Julia Schottenstein: I like Belly.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：我喜欢贝利。

It's a consumer social app that lets you find and discover restaurants and rate them with your friends.

它是一款消费者社交应用程序，可让您查找和发现餐厅并与朋友一起评价它们。

It's been a lot of fun looking at the New York City restaurant scene.

看看纽约市的餐馆场景很有趣。

Lenny: I've never heard of that.

莱尼：我从来没有听说过。

Awesome.

惊人的。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in the way you all do?

你们在做事的方式上有哪些相对较小的改变？

Product that has had a lot of impact?

产生了很大影响的产品？

Julia Schottenstein: Do fewer things and try to single thread the team as much as possible.

Julia Schottenstein：少做一些事情，并尽可能让团队保持单线程。

Lenny: And single thread meaning like one main priority, one goal?

Lenny：单线程意味着一个主要优先事项、一个目标？

Julia Schottenstein: One mission.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：一项使命。

Yeah.

是的。

We're all working rowing in the same direction.

我们都在朝着同一个方向划船。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You have a podcast, first of all, tell us what it's called, but second of all, what's a favorite podcast of yours other than this podcast and your podcast?

你有一个播客，首先，告诉我们它叫什么，但其次，除了这个播客和你的播客之外，你最喜欢的播客是什么？

Julia Schottenstein: Yeah.

朱莉娅·肖滕斯坦：是的。

It's called the Analytics Engineering Podcast, so if you want to learn more about the data industry, I host it every other week with our CEO Tristan Handy.

它被称为分析工程播客，所以如果您想了解有关数据行业的更多信息，我每隔一周与我们的首席执行官 Tristan Handy 一起主持一次。

It's a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

Check it out.

一探究竟。

Other podcasts that I really like are In Depth, it's First Rounds podcast by Bretton.

我真正喜欢的其他播客是 In Depth，这是 Bretton 的 First Rounds 播客。

He interviews a lot of operators about how they do their very best work.

他采访了很多操作员，了解他们如何做到最好。

And another podcast that I really like is the Logan Bartlett Show, which touches on timely trends in tech.

我真正喜欢的另一个播客是 Logan Bartlett Show，它涉及科技的及时趋势。

Lenny: And In Depth I think Todd Jackson actually hosts a lot of the episodes too.

莱尼：我认为托德·杰克逊实际上也主持了很多剧集。

Also, a huge fan of the podcast.

此外，也是播客的忠实粉丝。

Definitely check it out.

一定要检查一下。

And then say your podcast again and how can folks find it?

然后再说一遍你的播客，人们如何找到它？

Julia Schottenstein: It's called the Analytics Engineering Podcast.

Julia Schottenstein：这就是所谓的分析工程播客。

Lenny: And it's just in podcasting apps?

莱尼：而且只是在播客应用程序中？

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Check it out.

一探究竟。

Julia, we've talked about inflicting pain and strategic partnerships and why worse is better.

朱莉娅，我们讨论了造成痛苦和战略伙伴关系以及为什么更糟更好。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Julia Schottenstein: You can find me on Twitter J_Schottenstein, and you can also find me in the dbt community Slack also, Julia Schottenstein.

Julia Schottenstein：您可以在 Twitter J_Schottenstein 上找到我，也可以在 dbt 社区 Slack 中找到我，Julia Schottenstein。

Send me a note, reach me there and I'd love to hear from you if you have data problems or we can help serve your needs better, would love to chat.

如果您遇到数据问题，请给我留言，联系我，我很乐意听取您的意见，或者我们可以帮助更好地满足您的需求，很乐意与您聊天。

Lenny: Thank you so much for being here, Julia.

莱尼：非常感谢你来到这里，朱莉娅。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

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