Leveraging mentors to uplevel your career | Jules Walter (YouTube, Slack)

Jules Walter: If you give me feedback, I'll be like, "Hey, thank you so much.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：如果你给我反馈，我会说，“嘿，非常感谢你。

This is super helpful," because people are like, "Oh, he actually likes the feedback." Now, inside my heart might be melting.

这非常有帮助，”因为人们会说，“哦，他实际上很喜欢这些反馈。”现在，我的内心可能正在融化。

I'm like, "Oh, I thought I got better at this." You know what I mean?

我想，“哦，我以为我在这方面做得更好了。”你知道我的意思？

Jules Walter: But externally, I'm like, "Hey, thank you," and I mean it.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：但从表面上看，我会说，“嘿，谢谢你”，我是认真的。

I think that's the key that most people don't focus on.

我认为这是大多数人没有关注的关键。

And if you get more feedback, then you'll just get better at the things.

如果你得到更多反馈，那么你就会在事情上做得更好。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today, my guest is Jules Walter.

今天，我的客人是朱尔斯·沃尔特。

Jules is a product leader at YouTube.

Jules 是 YouTube 的产品负责人。

Before that, he spent four and a half years at Slack, where he was their first growth PM and then went on to lead their monetization teams and also their mobile team.

在此之前，他在 Slack 工作了四年半，担任他们的第一位增长 PM，然后继续领导他们的货币化团队和移动团队。

He's also the co-founder and a board member of the Black Product Managers Network and CodePath, both of which are nonprofits that aim to increase diversity within tech.

他还是 Black Product Managers Network 和 CodePath 的联合创始人和董事会成员，这两个组织都是旨在增加科技领域多样性的非营利组织。

Jules and I have collaborated on a number of projects over the years, including a killer guest post on building product sense that continues to be one of the most shared and beloved posts in my newsletter.

多年来，朱尔斯和我在许多项目上进行了合作，其中包括一篇关于构建产品意识的杀手级客座帖子，该帖子仍然是我的时事通讯中最受分享和喜爱的帖子之一。

Lenny: In our conversation, we focus on what skills matter most in advancing a PM's career, and more importantly, all the ways Jules has found to build those skills.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们关注哪些技能对于推进 PM 的职业生涯最重要，更重要的是 Jules 发现的培养这些技能的所有方法。

We also go deep on mentorship, how to find a mentor, what to look for in a mentor, how to get someone to agree to be a mentor, and a lot more.

我们还深入探讨导师制、如何寻找导师、寻找导师的哪些要素、如何让某人同意成为导师等等。

I super enjoyed this conversation, which I'm sure you can tell.

我非常喜欢这次谈话，我相​​信你也能看出来。

Jules is such a gem of a human.

朱尔斯就是这样一个人的瑰宝。

I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

我迫不及待地想让你听到这一集。

With that, I bring you Jules Walter after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了朱尔斯·沃尔特 (Jules Walter)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time-consuming, tedious, and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Enter Vanta.

输入万塔。

Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny, to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Notion.

Lenny：这一集是由 Notion 为您带来的。

If you haven't heard of Notion, where have you been?

如果您还没有听说过 Notion，那么您去过哪里？

I use Notion to coordinate this very podcast, including my content calendar, my sponsors, and prepping guests for launch of each episode.

我使用 Notion 来协调这个播客，包括我的内容日历、我的赞助商以及为每集发布准备嘉宾。

Notion is an all-in-one team collaboration tool that combines note-taking, document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more into one space that's simple, powerful, and beautifully designed.

Notion 是一款一体化团队协作工具，它将笔记记录、文档共享、wiki、项目管理等功能结合到一个简单、强大且设计精美的空间中。

And not only does it allow you to be more efficient in your work life, but you can easily transition to using it in your personal life, which is another feature that truly sets Notion apart.

它不仅可以让您在工作生活中更有效率，而且您可以轻松过渡到在个人生活中使用它，这是真正使 Notion 与众不同的另一个功能。

The other day, I started a home project and immediately opened up Notion to help me organize it all.

有一天，我开始了一个家庭项目，并立即打开了 Notion 来帮助我组织这一切。

Learn more and get started for free at notion.com/lennyspod.

了解更多信息并免费开始使用，请访问 notion.com/lennyspod。

Take the first step towards an organized happy team today, again, at notion.com/lennyspod.

今天，再次在 notion.com/lennyspod 上迈出建立一个有组织的快乐团队的第一步。

Lenny: Jules, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：朱尔斯，欢迎来到播客。

Jules Walter: Hey, Lenny.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：嘿，莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

I'm really excited.

我真的很兴奋。

Lenny: I am even more excited.

莱尼：我更兴奋了。

This chat has been a long time coming.

这次聊天已经很久了。

I've been hoping to get you on this podcast ever since this podcast even launched.

自从这个播客推出以来，我一直希望你能加入这个播客。

And then in the meantime, while we've been waiting to schedule it, a number of guests have mentioned how useful you've been to them in their career, and so I'm just really excited to finally have you on.

与此同时，当我们一直在等待安排它时，一些客人提到你在他们的职业生涯中对他们有多么有用，所以我真的很高兴终于邀请你参加。

Lenny: Let's just start with a quick overview of your background.

莱尼：让我们首先快速概述一下您的背景。

Could you share some of the wonderful places you've worked, some of the wonderful projects you've worked on, and then just a bit about what you're working on today?

您能否分享一下您工作过的一些精彩的地方、您参与过的一些精彩的项目，然后简单介绍一下您今天所做的工作？

Jules Walter: Yeah, happy to.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的，很高兴。

Some quick background, grew up in Haiti, studied computer science in college, went to business school.

一些背景很快的人，在海地长大，在大学学习计算机科学，上过商学院。

My first career was actually not in tech; it was in medical devices.

我的第一份职业实际上不是在科技领域；而是在科技领域。它是在医疗设备中。

I was a GM for a company based out of France and also overseeing West Africa business for them.

我是一家法国公司的总经理，还负责他们的西非业务。

After doing that, I moved back to the US, launched my own startup, which didn't work out, and then I moved to the Bay Area roughly eight years ago.

之后，我搬回美国，创办了自己的初创公司，但没有成功，然后大约八年前我搬到了湾区。

In the Bay Area I wanted to become a PM, which was really hard to get into.

在湾区，我想成为一名PM，但确实很难进入。

At first, I joined a startup, series a company, became head of product for them, and then join Slack as the first PM on their growth team.

起初，我加入了一家初创公司，成立了一家公司，成为他们的产品主管，然后加入 Slack，成为他们增长团队的第一位 PM。

Then from their, help scale the growth team at Slack.

然后，他们帮助扩大 Slack 的增长团队。

When I joined revenue was around 50 million; when I left roughly four years ago was 10x that.

我加入的时候收入是5000万左右；大约四年前我离开时，这个数字是原来的 10 倍。

And then after Slack I recently joined YouTube Google about two years ago.

大约两年前，在 Slack 之后，我加入了 YouTube Google。

At Google I'm a product lead at YouTube, where I'm driving a product called Primetime Channels, which actually recently launched in November in the US.

在 Google，我是 YouTube 的产品主管，负责开发一款名为 Primetime Channels 的产品，该产品最近于 11 月在美国推出。

And in that product, we're bringing streaming services to YouTube so that users can watch their favorite movies, shows, and sports content.

在该产品中，我们将流媒体服务引入 YouTube，以便用户可以观看他们喜爱的电影、节目和体育内容。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

The reason that I think we pushed this schedule of this podcast recording out is because you've been working on that product for many months and I'm glad to hear that it's finally launched.

我认为我们推迟这个播客录制时间表的原因是因为您已经在该产品上工作了好几个月，我很高兴听到它终于推出了。

How did the launch go?

发射进展如何？

Jules Walter: So far so good.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：到目前为止一切顺利。

It's really exciting to take a product from nothing to something.

将产品从无到有确实令人兴奋。

Lenny: Especially at a company like Google.

莱尼：尤其是在谷歌这样的公司。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

And then over time we are adding more exciting content onto the product.

随着时间的推移，我们会在产品中添加更多令人兴奋的内容。

We just recently you announced that we're adding NFL Sunday Ticket in 2023 to primetime channels and also to YouTube TV.

您最近刚刚宣布，我们将在黄金时段频道和 YouTube TV 中添加 2023 年 NFL 周日门票。

It's been a really exciting project.

这是一个非常令人兴奋的项目。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I bet there's a lot of stories there, but I know you can't talk too much about what's happening at Google, so we'll move on.

我敢打赌那里有很多故事，但我知道你不能过多谈论谷歌正在发生的事情，所以我们继续前进。

I like the point that you made about joining a startup, like you were trying to get into product management and you joined a startup as their first PM.

我喜欢你关于加入一家初创公司的观点，就像你试图进入产品管理领域一样，你作为他们的第一位产品经理加入了一家初创公司。

I think you mentioned that's how you got into the PM path or I guess...

我想你提到过这就是你进入 PM 路径的原因，或者我猜......

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's an interesting example of one of the paths into product management: joining a startup, getting into product there.

如果我错了，请纠正我，但这是进入产品管理的途径之一的一个有趣的例子：加入一家初创公司，进入那里的产品。

Jules Walter: Not as their first PM, but I joined as one of their first PMs.

Jules Walter：不是作为他们的第一任产品经理，但我是作为他们的第一任产品经理之一加入的。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: That's something I hear often is just one of the paths to product management is join a startup, start doing product, and then you're a PM.

Lenny：这是我经常听到的，产品管理的途径之一就是加入一家初创公司，开始做产品，然后你就是一名产品经理。

And then you have a PM title on your resume and you can now join other companies.

然后你的简历上就有了 PM 头衔，现在你可以加入其他公司了。

Is that something you found or anything you can take away from that experience?

这是你发现的东西还是你可以从这次经历中学到的东西？

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

It's really, really hard to get into product and there isn't a really set path to do that.

进入产品领域真的非常非常困难，而且没有一个真正确定的路径可以做到这一点。

What I've seen is the path that we just talked about, join a startup and then from there go into different companies.

我所看到的是我们刚才谈到的路径，加入一家初创公司，然后从那里进入不同的公司。

And then the other path that is typical is being at a company and then switching product management, especially if you develop domain expertise and there's a need for a PM.

另一条典型的路径是在一家公司工作，然后切换产品管理，特别是如果您开发领域专业知识并且需要 PM。

So, that's even more frequent.

所以，这种情况就更加频繁了。

Of course there's also acquisitions that sort of thing, but making that initial transition is really hard.

当然也有收购之类的事情，但最初的转变确实很困难。

Lenny: I didn't realize you were the first growth PM at Slack.

Lenny：我没有意识到你是 Slack 的第一位增长 PM。

That is a big role.

这是一个很大的角色。

How did that work out?

结果怎么样？

How did you become the first growth PM at Slack?

您是如何成为 Slack 的第一位增长产品经理的？

Was that the first time you're doing growth?

这是您第一次进行增长吗？

What's the story there?

那里有什么故事？

Jules Walter: I joined Slack early 2016 and the role that was available at the time was growth.

Jules Walter：我于 2016 年初加入 Slack，当时的职位是增长。

I did not know anything about growth, but I was like, "Hey, this is my way in at such a great company." So, that's what I joined to do.

我对成长一无所知，但我想，“嘿，这就是我进入这么一家伟大公司的方法。”所以，这就是我加入要做的事情。

And then what I did there was really take a learning mindset and lean on mentors, and we can talk about that to really learn the practice of growth and applied for Slack.

然后我在那里所做的就是真正采取学习心态并依靠导师，我们可以谈论这一点来真正学习成长的实践并申请Slack。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

We're definitely going to talk about some of those things.

我们肯定会讨论其中的一些事情。

Just thinking about that experience and that ride at Slack, what's like maybe the most tangible memory or most, I don't know, interesting story of just riding that rocket ship of Slack growth as one of their early PMs?

想想那次经历和在 Slack 的经历，作为早期 PM 之一，乘坐 Slack 增长的火箭船的最有形的记忆或者最有趣的故事是什么？

Jules Walter: There's many, many stories.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：有很多很多的故事。

My experience was I got in, didn't know much about growth, and then through mentorship, in particular, one mentor, Bangaly Kaba, sort of learned how to apply growth frameworks to my work.

我的经验是，我进来时对成长不太了解，然后通过指导，特别是一位导师 Bangaly Kaba，学会了如何将成长框架应用到我的工作中。

And then when I did that within six months, I was able to ship changes in the new user experience, especially on mobile.

然后，当我在六个月内做到这一点时，我能够在新的用户体验中进行更改，尤其是在移动设备上。

That moved the needle by a lot, like double-digit percentages within your .

这让指针移动了很多，比如你的 .

And we're talking about top line metrics like activation.

我们正在讨论诸如激活之类的顶线指标。

It was just interesting being able to have such impact very quickly at a company, and then the company itself went through all these milestones.

能够很快对一家公司产生如此大的影响真是有趣，然后公司本身就经历了所有这些里程碑。

I mentioned I joined 50 million, the next thing it's a hundred, and it keep doubling, going through a public offering.

我提到我加入了 5000 万，接下来是一百，并且通过公开募股不断翻倍。

So, there's just so many stories that are unique to hyper growth.

因此，有很多关于超高速增长的独特故事。

Lenny: You also didn't mention in your background all these kind of extracurricular activities that you have.

莱尼：你在背景中也没有提到你所进行的所有这些课外活动。

I've always been impressed with how much time you put into things that are kind of just volunteer projects on the side.

我一直对你在业余志愿者项目上投入的时间印象深刻。

Can you talk about some of the stuff that you do outside of your actual day job?

您能谈谈您在实际日常工作之外所做的一些事情吗？

Jules Walter: Outside of my work at YouTube now and also my family and young kids, I'm also involved with two nonprofits that I co-founded.

Jules Walter：除了我现在在 YouTube 的工作以及我的家人和年幼的孩子之外，我还参与了我共同创立的两个非营利组织。

Both of them are actually about improving diversity in tech, which is something I'm really passionate about.

它们实际上都是为了提高技术的多样性，这是我真正热衷的事情。

The first one is called CodePath and it's improving diversity for software engineers, and the second one is Black PMs focused on product management.

第一个称为 CodePath，它正在改善软件工程师的多样性，第二个是专注于产品管理的黑人产品经理。

With CodePath specifically, what we do is we train over 5,000 students every year at universities, typically the university with strong underrepresented populations, and we help them find internships and jobs at top tech companies.

具体来说，通过 CodePath，我们每年在大学（通常是人口代表性不足的大学）培训超过 5,000 名学生，并帮助他们在顶级科技公司找到实习和工作。

And then with Black PMs, we have a community of over a thousand PMs and aspiring PMs and then we help them find community and also grow their skills.

然后，对于黑人产品经理，我们拥有一个由一千多名产品经理和有抱负的产品经理组成的社区，然后我们帮助他们找到社区并提高他们的技能。

Both of them are nonprofits that I wasn't actually setting out to build them.

它们都是非营利组织，我实际上并没有打算建立它们。

It's more like I had the need myself or I wish I had those sort of support when I was earlier in my career.

更像是我自己也有这种需要，或者我希望在我职业生涯的早期获得这种支持。

And then I started helping folks and then one thing led to the other, especially my co-founders, and then these became big.

然后我开始帮助人们，然后一件事引发了另一件事，特别是我的联合创始人，然后这些事情变得很大。

Lenny: Sounds like a classic startup story, solve your own problem and turns into a larger and larger thing.

Lenny：听起来像是一个经典的创业故事，解决你自己的问题，然后把事情变成越来越大的事情。

I think I try to work with Black PMs as much as I can, and I know that you recently had a conference, which is so cool.

我想我会尽可能多地与黑人项目经理合作，而且我知道你们最近召开了一次会议，这太酷了。

I don't know, it was a really big conference that you organized.

我不知道，这是你组织的一次非常大的会议。

I don't know how you all had time for all that, but anything you can share about this conference and is there another one coming?

我不知道你们是怎么抽出时间来参加这一切的，但是你们能分享一下关于这次会议的任何信息吗？还会有另一场会议吗？

Jules Walter: Now we have a really good team at Black PMs.

Jules Walter：现在我们在黑人项目经理方面拥有一支非常优秀的团队。

The CEO, Brittany Bankston and the team, Benin Saffo and others, have helped put together that amazing conference that I was able to attend.

首席执行官布列塔尼·班克斯顿 (Brittany Bankston) 和团队贝宁·萨福 (Benin Saffo) 等人帮助组织了这次令人惊叹的会议，我得以参加。

It's amazing that it's hard for underrepresented community to see themselves in podcasts, at conferences, at speakers, that sort of thing.

令人惊讶的是，代表性不足的社区很难在播客、会议、演讲等活动中看到自己的身影。

So, it gave that opportunity and it also enables us to realize that you're not alone.

因此，它提供了这个机会，也使我们意识到您并不孤单。

Because part of why I created Black PMs with my co-founders is...

因为我和联合创始人创建黑人产品经理的部分原因是……

Actually, I'll tell you the story.

事实上，我会告诉你这个故事。

Jules Walter: I think it was around 2016, I was at a barbecue.

Jules Walter：我想那是在 2016 年左右，我在一次烧烤会上。

I met another Black PM, Maryanna Quigless.

我遇到了另一位黑人总理玛丽安娜·奎格利斯。

I didn't know her and I was like, "Oh, you're a Black PM at Facebook.

我不认识她，我当时就想，“哦，你是 Facebook 的黑人产品经理。

How many of you are there at the company?" And we're joking and we're like, "Hey, I bet we can list all the Black PMs we know." And we had basically roughly 15 between the two of us and we're like, "Hey, let's bring them all together in a room and to have a community." From there, started helping each other and that grew from 15 to now over a thousand.

你们公司有多少人？”我们开玩笑说，“嘿，我打赌我们可以列出我们认识的所有黑人总理。”我们两个人基本上有大约 15 个人，我们会想，“嘿，让我们把他们都聚集在一个房间里，建立一个社区。”从那时起，他们开始互相帮助，人数从 15 人增加到现在的 1000 多人。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Amazing.

惊人的。

It's really inspiring, the work that you do.

你所做的工作真的很鼓舞人心。

I don't know how you find time for all this.

我不知道你是怎么找到时间做这一切的。

I love that you found ways to kind of delegate this and have other people run the program now.

我喜欢你找到了一些方法来委托这件事并让其他人现在运行该程序。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

Now, I'm mostly on the board of these organizations.

现在，我主要是这些组织的董事会成员。

We have really solid teams for both Black PMs and CodePath, and the teams are just really amazing.

我们拥有非常可靠的黑人产品经理和 CodePath 团队，这些团队真的很棒。

Lenny: This touches on the stuff that I want to spend most of our time on our chat, which is around mentorship and just generally becoming a stronger product manager through all the ways you can become a stronger product manager.

Lenny：这涉及到我想在聊天中花费大部分时间的内容，即围绕指导，以及通过所有可以成为更强大的产品经理的方式来成为更强大的产品经理。

You mentioned you had a lot of great mentors.

你提到你有很多伟大的导师。

I've heard from other people, you've been a great mentor to them and you've also just been really successful at a number of really world-class companies.

我从其他人那里听说，您一直是他们的伟大导师，而且您还在许多真正的世界级公司中取得了真正的成功。

What I want to chat about is just, what have you found to be the most important skills to develop as a PM as you advance in your career, and then how to actually build those skills partly with mentorship, partly other ways?

我想聊的是，作为一名产品经理，随着你职业生涯的进步，你发现什么是最重要的技能，然后如何通过指导或其他方式实际培养这些技能？

Maybe just to start, what have you found to be the most important skills in your career that have most helped you advance in your career and other PMs around you?

也许首先，您发现您的职业生涯中最重要的技能是什么，最能帮助您和您周围的其他产品经理取得职业进步？

Jules Walter: In terms of skills, I think of it in terms of two buckets.

Jules Walter：就技能而言，我认为有两个方面。

One are IQ skills, intellectual skills, like what sometimes people call hard skills.

一是智商技能，智力技能，就像人们有时所说的硬技能。

And then the other things are the EQ skills, oftentimes called soft skills.

然后其他的是情商技能，通常称为软技能。

What I've seen in my career is that early on, I leaned more into the hard skills, the IQ stuff.

我在职业生涯中看到的是，在早期，我更倾向于硬技能、智商的东西。

That was what was most helpful to me.

这对我来说是最有帮助的。

And then later on, I spent more time getting better at the EQ skills.

后来，我花了更多的时间来提高情商技巧。

The reality with PMs is that within each of these buckets, there's so many skills and then you can feel overwhelmed, so my advice is really just start skill by skill.

PM 的现实情况是，在每个类别中，都有如此多的技能，然后你可能会感到不知所措，所以我的建议是从一项技能开始。

What I did specifically is I joined Slack, I was in ICPM.

我具体做的是加入 Slack，加入 ICPM。

When you join a new company, especially if you're earlier in the mid-career, you really want to get good at things like execution, IQ skills, execution, product sense, strategy.

当你加入一家新公司时，特别是如果你处于职业生涯的早期，你真的想擅长执行力、智商技能、执行力、产品意识、战略等方面。

So, those were critical for me, especially my first year at Slack.

所以，这些对我来说至关重要，尤其是我在 Slack 的第一年。

Jules Walter: The other skill that I'll also call out, which nobody talks about for some reason, is interview skills, because so much of what gives you a chance to become better as a PM is working at a great company.

Jules Walter：我还要提到的另一项技能是面试技巧，但由于某种原因没有人谈论它，因为在一家伟大的公司工作，让你有机会变得更好，成为一名 PM。

How you get that job beyond networking is actually becoming good at interviewing.

如何在网络之外获得这份工作实际上就是要擅长面试。

If you think about my career, getting into Slack changed my trajectory and I was able to do that because I got slightly somewhat good enough at interviewing.

如果你想想我的职业生涯，进入 Slack 改变了我的轨迹，我之所以能够做到这一点，是因为我在面试方面稍微有点足够好。

I barely got the job and then I was really good at execution and got better at these other things, product sense, strategy, et cetera.

我勉强得到了这份工作，然后我真的很擅长执行，并且在其他方​​面做得更好，产品意识、战略等等。

In that phase, the things that I was working on, as I mentioned earlier, were things like improving user activation.

在那个阶段，正如我之前提到的，我正在做的事情是提高用户激活度。

So, it relies on those skills: identifying the opportunities, running experiments, executing quickly, and so on.

因此，它依赖于这些技能：识别机会、进行实验、快速执行等等。

That's the first set of skills.

这是第一组技能。

Lenny: Before we move on, and the second set is EQ, right?

Lenny：在我们继续之前，第二组是EQ，对吧？

Is that where you're going?

那是你要去的地方吗？

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Maybe just one quick thread I want to pull on is this interviewing skill.

也许我想简单介绍的一个主题就是面试技巧。

That's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Your point here is you're not...

你的重点是你不是...

And I think you're going to get to this of just how to get better at these skills.

我认为您将会了解如何提高这些技能。

You mentioned one of the best ways is to be surrounded by amazing people who can help you get better at these skills, but you won't get there if you can't actually get into a company like Slack.

你提到最好的方法之一就是周围都是优秀的人，他们可以帮助你提高这些技能，但如果你不能真正进入像 Slack 这样的公司，你就无法实现这一目标。

Is there something you've found to be useful in building these interview skills?

您发现有什么东西对培养这些面试技巧有用吗？

When you say interview, it's being interviewed, not interviewing other people, like passing these interview tests.

当你说面试时，它是被面试，而不是面试其他人，比如通过这些面试测试。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I guess what have you found has been most helpful in helping you become a better interviewee?

我想您发现什么对您成为更好的受访者最有帮助？

Jules Walter: When people tell me, "Hey, I'm going to a interview at this company." First question I ask is, "How many mock interviews have you done?" And the answer typically is zero.

Jules Walter：当人们告诉我，“嘿，我要去这家公司面试。”我问的第一个问题是，“你做了多少次模拟面试？”答案通常是零。

It's, "Oh, I read a bunch of stuff.

它是，“哦，我读了很多东西。

I practiced in my head." But I'm like, "How many actual mock interviews have you done?" And I would recommend people to do dozens of those mock interviews.

我在心里练习过。”但我想，“你做过多少次真正的模拟面试？”我会建议人们进行数十次模拟面试。

Now, the other thing about practice is it's always better if you deliberate practice.

现在，关于练习的另一件事是，刻意练习总是更好。

If you mock interview with somebody who's actually good at interviewing, then you'll get better faster.

如果你与真正擅长面试的人进行模拟面试，那么你会进步得更快。

But even if you don't do that, just going from zero mocks to practicing in your head to actually doing mocks with peers and others is going to get you to another level.

但即使你不这样做，从零模拟到在头脑中练习，再到与同事和其他人一起实际进行模拟，也会让你达到另一个水平。

And then the other thing I'll say is interviewing can be quite traumatic and difficult for a lot of people, even me.

我要说的另一件事是，面试对很多人来说都是相当痛苦和困难的，甚至对我来说也是如此。

I mean before I got this job, I interviewed at Google, I don't know how many times, over the last decade or two.

我的意思是，在我得到这份工作之前，我在谷歌面试过，我不知道在过去的一两年里面试了多少次。

Lenny: Wait.

莱尼：等等。

You're saying you're interviewed at Google many times and you didn't get in then you kept looking for new opportunities?

你是说你在谷歌面试过很多次但没被录取然后你就一直在寻找新的机会？

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

I graduated from MIT and I think even since internship times in '07, I'd interviewed for roles at Google and I didn't get those roles or Meta or various other companies.

我从麻省理工学院毕业，我想即使从 07 年实习开始，我就面试过 Google 的职位，但我没有得到这些职位，也没有得到 Meta 或其他各种公司的职位。

It's because I wasn't good at interviewing and I didn't know people at those companies.

因为我不擅长面试，也不认识那些公司的人。

By the way, most things you do, people give you some feedback so you can get better at it, but interviewing you never get any feedback.

顺便说一句，你做的大多数事情，人们都会给你一些反馈，这样你就可以做得更好，但面试你永远不会得到任何反馈。

That's the thing people don't talk about, but it's actually an important skill or a barrier to underrepresented folks.

这是人们不会谈论的事情，但它实际上是一项重要的技能，或者对于代表性不足的人来说是一个障碍。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

You won't get feedback after an interview at any company.

在任何公司面试后你都不会得到反馈。

Lenny: That's a really good insight of just people see you join a YouTube and are like, "Oh, yeah, of course he's going to get into YouTube." But you're saying that you actually tried to interview and get into Google many times and it took a number of attempts and advancing your career a little bit before you actually...

Lenny：这是一个非常好的洞察，人们看到你加入 YouTube 后就会说，“哦，是的，他当然会加入 YouTube。”但你是说你实际上多次尝试面试并进入谷歌，并且在你真正之前进行了多次尝试并稍微提升了你的职业生涯......

So, don't feel so discouraged if it doesn't work out.

所以，如果没有成功，也不要灰心丧气。

Lenny: In terms of this mock, that's a really important point of just actually doing the interviews, like practicing, practicing, practicing.

莱尼：就这次模拟而言，实际进行采访非常重要，比如练习、练习、练习。

Not just reading questions but actually testing and practicing interview.

不仅仅是阅读问题，而是实际测试和练习面试。

If you were interviewed at a big company, there's a lot of videos out there of like, "Here's the questions they ask.

如果你在一家大公司接受面试，就会有很多视频，比如“这是他们问的问题。

Here's what they look for." And you're saying find people that work at the company and do these sorts of interviews with them.

这就是他们寻找的东西。”你是说找到在该公司工作的人并对他们进行此类采访。

For companies that are smaller that maybe don't...

对于规模较小的公司来说，可能不...

It's not as obvious what they're going to ask you.

他们要问你什么问题并不那么明显。

Do you have any advice on how to find someone to do a mock interview with or how or what to actually be talking through?

对于如何找人进行模拟面试或者如何或实际谈论什么内容，您有什么建议吗？

Jules Walter: Yeah, it's hard at smaller companies.

Jules Walter：是的，对于小公司来说这很难。

However, I think interviewing even at bigger companies will help you .

然而，我认为即使是在大公司面试也会对你有所帮助。

A lot of the times the bigger companies have more rigorous processes.

很多时候，大公司有更严格的流程。

So if you can do well there, then it is a bit easier elsewhere.

因此，如果你在那里做得很好，那么在其他地方就容易一些。

But the key is really that practice part, which people overlook.

但关键实际上是人们忽视的练习部分。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Well, maybe one last question there and we'll move on.

好吧，也许还有最后一个问题，我们将继续。

Do you have any favorite resources or just advice of where to go find the questions to mock interview with and then who do you look forward to do these interviews with, like just find someone at the company or one of these larger companies that you respect to mock interview with?

您是否有任何最喜欢的资源，或者只是建议去哪里找到模拟面试的问题，然后您希望与谁进行这些面试，例如找到您尊敬的公司或这些大公司中的某个人进行模拟面试？

Jules Walter: I mentor a bunch of people who talk about various communities that exist out there.

Jules Walter：我指导了一群谈论现有各种社区的人。

I can follow up on those, but there are large communities of people prepping for these companies.

我可以跟进这些情况，但是有很多人正在为这些公司做准备。

The key is really just being a part of a community and doing the mocks.

关键实际上只是成为社区的一部分并进行模拟。

And then the last thing I'll say on this is interviewing is hard and especially, I think, hard for underrepresented folks because it's high pressure.

关于这一点我要说的最后一件事是面试很困难，尤其是我认为对于代表性不足的人来说很难，因为压力很大。

It's high stress, high ambiguity-

这是高压力、高模糊性——

Jules Walter: ...

朱尔斯·沃尔特：……

coming into a company.

进入一家公司。

I've gone into companies like an interview and then the whole panel, nobody looks like me.

我参加过一些公司的面试，然后是整个小组，没有人看起来像我。

I walk into the cafeteria, nobody looks like me.

我走进自助餐厅，没有人看起来像我。

And then you are interviewing and you have all this self-talk about, "Hey, do I even want to work there?

然后你在面试时就会自言自语，“嘿，我想在那里工作吗？

Will I belong," while you're trying to solve complex problems.

当你试图解决复杂的问题时，我会属于吗？

So, that's also the other part companies don't think about.

所以，这也是公司没有考虑的其他部分。

What I do, like folks at Black PMs that I coach, is really help them find groups of people, like small groups.

我所做的，就像我指导的黑人项目经理的人一样，真正帮助他们找到一群人，比如小组。

Let's say three of us, et cetera, three to five, and then you practice with that group who are going through the process.

假设我们三个人，等等，三到五个人，然后你和正在经历这个过程的那组人一起练习。

And because you like the people, then it makes it a bit more fun and it also can help you prep for your own nerves in those interviews.

因为你喜欢这些人，所以这会让面试变得更有趣，而且还可以帮助你为面试中的紧张做好准备。

Lenny: What I'm hearing is, and I know we hear this all the time, if you're, say, a Black product manager, it's so much harder to not just get in because there's potentially bias at the company, but you're just psychologically not feeling as comfortable because nobody looks like you.

莱尼：我听到的是，我知道我们一直听到这样的说法，如果你是一名黑人产品经理，那么你不仅要进入公司就更难了，因为公司可能存在偏见，而且你只是在心理上感觉不舒服，因为没有人看起来像你。

You're worried that they're going to have bias against you.

您担心他们会对您有偏见。

Is that what you find?

那是你发现的吗？

Jules Walter: Yeah, that has been my experience and it's also what I hear from a lot of people I mentor.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的，这是我的经历，也是我从我指导过的很多人那里听到的。

Lenny: Your advice there, and this is helpful to anyone also, is just practice even more because that's probably the best way to get over that as much as you can.

莱尼：你的建议就是多加练习，这对任何人都有帮助，因为这可能是尽可能克服这个问题的最佳方法。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

You want to basically practice so much that even at your worst, you're good enough.

基本上，你想要进行大量练习，以便即使在最糟糕的情况下，你也足够好。

I've always felt like most interviews, I literally did my worst.

我一直觉得大多数面试我都尽力了。

It's just that it was good enough to pass.

只不过是已经足够好了，才能通过而已。

You're so stressed out, you don't relate to the person, et cetera.

你压力太大了，你与这个人没有关系，等等。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Let's go back to the question I asked that I pushed us away from.

让我们回到我提出的那个被我回避的问题。

We were talking about what skills as a PM you want to be focusing on that mostly will help you in your career, and we started with IQ.

我们讨论了作为产品经理你想要关注哪些技能，这些技能对你的职业生涯最有帮助，我们从智商开始。

I wrote a couple notes, so there's the concrete skills, execution, products and strategy, interviewing, and then there's a second bucket of EQ.

我写了一些笔记，所以有具体的技能、执行力、产品和策略、面试，然后还有第二个情商。

Jules Walter: So, the IQ I already talked about.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：所以，我已经谈到了智商。

Those are the skills that help me at, especially in my first year at Slack, drive big good experiments, design good product experiences, and then drive results.

这些技能可以帮助我推动大型实验、设计良好的产品体验，然后推动成果，尤其是在 Slack 的第一年。

But then what happened is as I get promoted, managed people and then start having larger scope, then there's a lot of ambiguity and stress that comes in with that increase in scope.

但后来发生的事情是，当我得到晋升、管理人员，然后开始扩大范围时，随着范围的扩大，就会出现很多模糊性和压力。

And that's where the EQ stuff shows up a lot, specifically things like communications, because it's no longer my team.

这就是情商的东西经常出现的地方，特别是沟通之类的东西，因为它不再是我的团队了。

It's like cross-functional partners, other teams, executives, so you have to communicate all the time to different people.

就像跨职能合作伙伴、其他团队、高管一样，因此您必须始终与不同的人进行沟通。

And then the other thing is things like leadership.

另一件事是领导力之类的事情。

Now, I'm driving initiatives that involve multiple teams, basic company level OKRs, and then the other thing too is beyond leadership, which is managing your team as well.

现在，我正在推动涉及多个团队、基本公司级别 OKR 的计划，然后另一件事也超出了领导力，即管理您的团队。

How do you be a good manager?

如何成为一名优秀的管理者？

How do you deal with the ambiguity, stress?

你如何应对歧义和压力？

How do you influence various people?

你如何影响不同的人？

Jules Walter: These are the EQ skills.

Jules Walter：这些是情商技巧。

What I've seen is, number one, it's much harder to learn these skills than the IQ stuff.

我所看到的是，第一，学习这些技能比学习智商的东西要困难得多。

The IQ is very intellectual.

智商非常高。

Sometimes, you just need a mental model, practice a bit.

有时，你只需要一个心理模型，稍微练习一下。

The EQ, I'm still learning these things.

EQ，我还在学习这些东西。

It's just like every...

这就像每个...

I'm trying to get better.

我正在努力变得更好。

Then the other thing beyond it being hard to learn is that the EQ stuff...

除了很难学之外，另一件事是情商的东西......

What you need to focus on is specific to you, so you learn it.

你需要关注的内容是特定于你的，所以你要学习它。

You probably work on something different than what I would work on versus if we're both trying to be better at strategy or execution, there's a lot more overlap.

你的工作可能与我的工作不同，如果我们都想在战略或执行方面做得更好，那么就会有更多的重叠。

So, there's a lot of self-awareness that you need to have to know even what to work on and then you need to continuously practice it.

所以，你需要有很多自我意识，甚至需要知道要做什么，然后你需要不断地练习。

Lenny: What did you find was the most important EQ skill for your career that helped you in this journey?

Lenny：你认为对你的职业生涯来说最重要的情商技能是什么，对你的这段旅程有帮助？

Jules Walter: I don't know if there is one that single-handedly was the most important.

Jules Walter：我不知道是否有一个人是最重要的。

I had to develop on many of these things.

我必须在其中许多事情上有所发展。

I can tell you, for example, communication is something that is helpful, especially as I become more senior.

例如，我可以告诉你，沟通是很有帮助的，尤其是当我变得更高级时。

What happened for me is, early in my career, it was more about clarity and then conciseness.

对我来说，在我职业生涯的早期，更注重的是清晰性和简洁性。

Then later it became more about how do you tell a story, and then also how do you communicate in an empathetic way.

后来，它更多地涉及如何讲故事，以及如何以同理心的方式进行交流。

Specifically, you're telling the same story or presentation but to different audiences, and each time you have to adjust it because the CEO will care about this part, the CFO will care about this other part, and so on.

具体来说，你向不同的受众讲述相同的故事或演示，每次你都必须对其进行调整，因为首席执行官会关心这一部分，首席财务官会关心另一部分，依此类推。

I think that's one area where I spend a lot of time.

我认为这是我花费大量时间的一个领域。

And then the other thing also that has been helpful is the self-awareness part that I mentioned, where through mentorship, especially mentors who were very honest and help me see my blind spots, I was able to see my own patterns.

另外一件事也很有帮助，那就是我提到的自我意识部分，通过指导，特别是非常诚实的指导者，帮助我看到自己的盲点，我能够看到自己的模式。

Jules Walter: When I'm under stress, for example, I tend to withdraw and not see anything.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：例如，当我面临压力时，我倾向于退缩，看不到任何东西。

So, then you might think I'm disengaged.

那么，你可能会认为我脱离了。

By the way, in an interview context you might be like, "Oh, does this person even want to work here?" Then once you know these patterns you know, "Okay, I'm stressed right now, but I need to say something so that people see that I'm actually interested in this problem; I'm just thinking through it.

顺便说一句，在面试中你可能会说，“哦，这个人想在这里工作吗？”一旦你了解了这些模式，你就会知道，“好吧，我现在压力很大，但我需要说点什么，以便人们看到我实际上对这个问题感兴趣；我只是在思考它。

Well, let me verbalize my thought process." So, that's me as an example.

好吧，让我用语言表达一下我的思考过程。”那么，这就是我的例子。

For you, it might be the opposite.

对你来说，情况可能恰恰相反。

The self-awareness piece has been really helpful and it's something I continue to work on.

自我意识部分非常有帮助，这是我继续努力的事情。

Lenny: That's an interesting point that it's important to understand how you react and to figure out what's unique about you that you want to be working on, especially within EQ.

莱尼：这是一个有趣的观点，了解你的反应并找出你想要努力的独特之处很重要，尤其是在情商方面。

For this example you gave about how stress impacts you, how did you actually discover that?

在这个例子中，您给出了压力如何影响您的信息，您实际上是如何发现这一点的？

Was that this mentor just pointing out, "Hey, Jules, I've noticed this happens," or is there anything else there that maybe folks would find useful?

这位导师只是指出，“嘿，朱尔斯，我注意到这种情况发生了”，还是还有其他可能人们会觉得有用的东西？

Jules Walter: Generally, you need someone to put a mirror in front of you irritably.

Jules Walter：一般来说，你需要有人在你面前烦躁地放一面镜子。

Sometimes, it's like you hire a coach, I talk to, and they see patterns.

有时，就像你聘请了一位教练，我与他们交谈，他们看到了模式。

I've done group coaching too.

我也做过团体辅导。

In this case specifically, he was a mentor.

具体来说，在这种情况下，他是一位导师。

His name is Lawrence Ripsher.

他的名字叫劳伦斯·里普舍。

He was head of product at Pinterest and became a mentor and now a close friend.

他曾担任 Pinterest 的产品主管，后来成为了一位导师，现在又成为了一位亲密的朋友。

One day I was preparing for...

有一天，我正准备...

I think I need to do a representation and he was like, "Hey, I've noticed that when you are thinking, you're just quiet.

我想我需要做一个陈述，他说：“嘿，我注意到，当你思考时，你会很安静。

Let me tell you what's going on in my own head when I see that." And then he was like, "Hey, I'm telling myself that he's not interested in what we're doing." And I'm like, "Really?

让我告诉你当我看到这个的时候我脑子里在想什么。”然后他说，“嘿，我告诉自己他对我们正在做的事情不感兴趣。”我想，“真的吗？

That's the least thing." And then I realized that's a pattern I have.

这是最不重要的事情。”然后我意识到这就是我的模式。

Over time, through him and others, I've also observed other patterns.

随着时间的推移，通过他和其他人，我还观察到了其他模式。

Lenny: I missed this, but was he a manager or just a mentor you had within the company?

莱尼：我错过了这一点，但他是一名经理还是你在公司内的导师？

Jules Walter: We didn't work at the same company.

Jules Walter：我们不在同一家公司工作。

When I was at Slack, he was head of product at Pinterest.

当我在 Slack 工作时，他是 Pinterest 的产品主管。

We met at a dinner and then from there, over time, he became a mentor and then we started meeting.

我们是在一次晚宴上认识的，从那时起，随着时间的推移，他成为了一位导师，然后我们开始见面。

When I would hit difficult situations, sometimes I would call him and ask for advice, and then through those interactions he's helped me identify some of my blind spots.

当我遇到困难时，有时我会打电话给他寻求建议，然后通过这些互动，他帮助我发现了一些盲点。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

We're definitely going to talk about mentorship and how to work with a mentor, but let's kind of wrap up this EQ piece.

我们肯定会讨论指导以及如何与导师合作，但让我们来总结一下情商部分。

You mentioned within EQ, skills to think about working on communication, leadership, and management.

您在情商中提到了思考沟通、领导力和管理工作的技能。

Is there anything else and then is there an example of one of these skills and how, I don't know, it helped you in your career or held you back until you figure out how to work on this?

还有其他什么吗？然后有一个关于其中一项技能的例子吗？我不知道它是如何帮助你的职业生涯的，或者是如何阻碍你直到你弄清楚如何解决这个问题的？

Jules Walter: High level, I think those buckets are pretty broad: comms, leadership, management.

Jules Walter：高层，我认为这些范围非常广泛：沟通、领导力、管理。

Within each of them, there are various skills like setting vision, strategy, listening to learn, those sort of things.

他们每个人都有各种各样的技能，比如设定愿景、战略、倾听学习等等。

It's actually the type of things that Matt Mochary talked about when he came to speak at your podcast.

这实际上是马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）在你的播客上演讲时谈到的类型。

I mentioned communications was one thing, right?

我提到沟通是一回事，对吗？

What happened was, when I was at Slack, I was pretty good at writing, which by the way I was terrible at long time ago.

事情是这样的，当我在 Slack 的时候，我的写作能力相当不错，顺便说一句，很久以前我的写作能力很糟糕。

It took me years, maybe decade, to get better at.

我花了几年，也许十年，才变得更好。

But then when it was time to present...

但当到了展示的时候......

I was fine at presenting, but then if you ask me questions, things would crumble.

我很擅长演讲，但如果你问我问题，事情就会崩溃。

That even happened to me once at an interview, where I did well presenting and then they asked me a question and then I just gave an answer that wasn't good.

这种情况甚至在一次采访中发生在我身上，我表现得很好，然后他们问了我一个问题，然后我只是给出了一个不好的答案。

Jules Walter: Then the self-awareness part helped me figure out what was going on.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：然后自我意识部分帮助我弄清楚发生了什么。

For me specifically, I realized whenever people ask me questions, if I didn't know the answer, I would have all this negative self-talk and I basically...

特别是对我来说，我意识到每当人们问我问题时，如果我不知道答案，我就会有所有这些消极的自言自语，我基本上......

You'd ask me a question and of course it could be something like, "Why are we doing it this way?" And it might come from a place of curiosity, you're just like, "Hey, I don't know.

你会问我一个问题，当然可能是“我们为什么要这样做？”它可能来自好奇心，你就像，“嘿，我不知道。

Can you tell me why you have more context," right?

你能告诉我为什么你有更多的背景吗？”对吧？

But in my head I would hear, "I don't agree with this." And that would be my self-talk.

但在我的脑海里，我会听到：“我不同意这一点。”这就是我的自言自语。

"Oh, this person doesn't agree with this," instead of being present and trying to understand where are they coming from and maybe asking follow-ups like, "Hey, thanks for asking the question.

“哦，这个人不同意这一点”，而不是在场并试图了解他们来自哪里，也许会询问后续问题，例如“嘿，谢谢你提出这个问题。

Is your concern more about, I don't know, scalability of this approach or is it more that you don't think it's effective even if it's not scalable?"

我不知道，你更关心的是这种方法的可扩展性，还是更担心即使它不可扩展，你也不认为它有效？”

Jules Walter: You know what I mean?

朱尔斯·沃尔特：你明白我的意思吗？

For someone else, it might be the easiest thing, but for me it took me months and months to, first of all, figure out that I had this pattern.

对于其他人来说，这可能是最简单的事情，但对于我来说，我花了几个月的时间才首先弄清楚我有这种模式。

And then once I figured out the pattern, it took also a while to now actually act on it so that now I'm comfortable.

一旦我弄清楚了这个模式，我又花了一段时间才真正采取行动，所以现在我很舒服。

If you ask me a question, sometimes I don't know and I'll say, "Hey, let me get back to you." Sometimes I don't know and I'll say, "Hey, I don't know, but here's what I'm thinking." This little thing that may seem so obvious to you took me a while and different people have different versions of these blockers.

如果你问我问题，有时我不知道，我会说：“嘿，让我回复你。”有时我不知道，我会说：“嘿，我不知道，但这就是我的想法。”这个对你来说似乎很明显的小事花了我一段时间，不同的人有不同版本的这些拦截器。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Linear.

Lenny：这一集是由 Linear 为您带来的。

Let's be honest, the issue tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful.

老实说，您今天使用的问题跟踪器并不是很有帮助。

Why is it that always seems to be working against you instead of working for you?

为什么它似乎总是对你不利而不是为你工作？

Why does it feel like such a chore to use?

为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？

Well, Linear is different.

那么，线性则不同。

It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process, from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.

它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化您的整个产品开发流程，从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图。

Linear is designed for the way modern software teams work.

Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。

What users love about Linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress, and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync.

用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进步的循环，以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。

In short, it just works.

简而言之，它就是有效的。

Linear is the default tool of choice among startups and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Versatile, Retool, and Cash App.

Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Versatile、Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。

See for yourself by product teams describe using Linear as magical.

亲眼看看产品团队描述使用 Linear 是多么神奇。

Visit linear.app/lenny to try linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade.

访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队免费试用 Linear，并在升级时享受 25% 的折扣。

That's linear.app/lenny.

那是 Linear.app/lenny。

Lenny: I love these stories and this is a good segue to start talking a bit about not just what skills to focus on, but how to actually get better at these things and identify these patterns in yourself.

莱尼：我喜欢这些故事，这是一个很好的衔接，不仅可以讨论要关注的技能，还可以讨论如何真正在这些事情上做得更好并识别自己的这些模式。

There's like a bunch of skills we just named, so let's also talk about where you think you start as you're starting off as a PM, which skills to focus on first, second, third.

我们刚才提到了很多技能，所以我们也谈谈当你开始担任产品经理时，你认为你应该从哪里开始，首先要关注哪些技能，第二个，第三个技能。

Let me just ask this broad question.

让我问这个广泛的问题。

We've talked about all these different skills PM should have.

我们已经讨论了产品经理应具备的所有这些不同技能。

What have you found to be most effective broadly at building these skills in your career?

您发现什么对于在您的职业生涯中培养这些技能最有效？

Jules Walter: I will share my approach.

Jules Walter：我将分享我的方法。

It might not work for everyone and later when we talk about strengths and weaknesses.

它可能并不适合每个人，稍后当我们谈论优点和缺点时。

You might see why that works for me.

你可能会明白为什么这对我有用。

What I do specifically is when I'm trying to learn something new, I try to think about what is an outcome that I could drive.

我具体做的是，当我尝试学习新东西时，我会尝试思考我可以带来什么结果。

And if I drive this outcome, it will be proof that I'm better at this thing.

如果我推动这个结果，这将证明我在这件事上做得更好。

If we go back to this story of when I joined Slack, I didn't know anything, literally anything about growth.

如果我们回顾一下我加入 Slack 时的故事，我会发现我对成长一无所知。

And I was telling myself, "I hope they don't fire me." But then the outcome I wanted is, within six months, I wanted to ship enough experiments that were successful, that drove activation by, let's say, X percent.

我告诉自己，“我希望他们不要解雇我。”但我想要的结果是，在六个月内，我希望进行足够多的成功实验，从而推动激活，比如说 X%。

So, that's very concrete.

所以，这是非常具体的。

Jules Walter: Then once I have this outcome, I work backwards to figure out how am I going to do that.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：一旦我得到了这个结果，我就会逆向思考我该如何做到这一点。

One of the things we can talk about later when we talk about strength is that, for me, I'm really good at asking questions.

当我们稍后谈论力量时，我们可以谈论的一件事是，对我来说，我真的很擅长提出问题。

What I do then is I start asking questions like, "Okay, I'm trying to drive activation for Slack.

然后我要做的就是开始问这样的问题：“好吧，我正在尝试推动 Slack 的激活。

What are some frameworks that I should use to drive activation?

我应该使用哪些框架来驱动激活？

What are best practices?

什么是最佳实践？

What are examples?" I have a sense of the kind of question that, if I were to answer them, I'd be able to drive the outcome.

有什么例子？”我有一种感觉，如果我回答这些问题，我就能推动结果。

And then what I do is I read a little bit, not a lot about the topic, just to make sure I'm asking the right question.

然后我所做的就是读一点，而不是读太多有关该主题的内容，只是为了确保我问的是正确的问题。

Then I refine my questions and then I find the best people in the field and I just go talk to them.

然后我完善我的问题，然后找到该领域最优秀的人，然后我就去和他们交谈。

That's where we'll talk later about the mentorship part.

这就是我们稍后讨论指导部分的地方。

Jules Walter: In the case of activation, I was like, "Okay, what's the company that defined growth?" At the time, Facebook.

Jules Walter：就激活而言，我想，“好吧，定义增长的公司是什么？”当时，脸书。

"Who are the people that I can reach out to that do growth at Facebook?" And one of them was Bangaly Kaba and also Adriel Frederick who spoke at your podcast.

“我可以联系哪些人来帮助 Facebook 实现增长？”其中之一是班加利·卡巴 (Bangaly Kaba) 和在您的播客上发言的阿德里尔·弗雷德里克 (Adriel Frederick)。

I had met both of them at a random event.

我是在一次偶然的活动中认识他们俩的。

Then I'm like, "I need to find a way to have a chat with these folks and to help answer those questions with them." So, that's what I did with Bangaly in particular and also Adriel to a certain extent.

然后我想，“我需要找到一种方法与这些人聊天并帮助他们回答这些问题。”所以，这就是我对 Bangaly 所做的事情，在某种程度上也是对 Adriel 所做的。

I then learned, "Okay, here are frameworks to use for growth." For example, understand, identify, execute.

然后我了解到，“好吧，这是用于增长的框架。”例如，理解、识别、执行。

Spend a lot more of your time understanding why people aren't staying on Slack versus anything else, so then I had pointers.

花更多的时间来理解为什么人们不留在 Slack 上而不是其他任何东西上，所以我得到了一些指示。

Jules Walter: Once I have the pointers, then I try to go through the thing.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：一旦我得到了指示，我就会尝试去解决这个问题。

I'm like, "Okay, now let me..." I call the user researcher, "Hey, can we do a research on people who are signing up on Slack?" Data analysts, let's look at the data.

我想，“好吧，现在让我......”我给用户研究员打电话，“嘿，我们可以对在 Slack 上注册的人进行研究吗？”数据分析师，我们来看一下数据。

What correlates with activation?" Those sort of things.

与激活相关的是什么？”诸如此类的事情。

Then after I go through a look, where I actually see results, whether they're good or bad, I go back to the mentor and I'm like, "Hey, I did this.

然后，在我仔细查看之后，我实际上看到了结果，无论它们是好是坏，我回到导师那里，我说，“嘿，我做到了。

It was actually successful.

实际上是成功的。

Thanks a lot." Now, I'm thinking about this other problem." I keep going and that's how I rinse and repeat, and over time I drive the outcome and I also know I'm getting better at this thing by working with the experts.

非常感谢。“现在，我正在考虑另一个问题。”我继续前进，这就是我冲洗和重复的方式，随着时间的推移，我推动了结果，我也知道通过与专家合作，我在这件事上做得更好。

Lenny: There's a few interesting takeaways there.

莱尼：这里有一些有趣的要点。

One, is that you kind of create a forcing function for yourself to learn a thing.

一是你为自己创造了一种强迫功能来学习一件事。

It's like, "Hey, I'm going to learn this thing.

就像，“嘿，我要学这个东西。

Let's create a goal that my ass is on the line to hit and then that's going to force me to go figure this out." And then two, it's interesting how often you come back to mentors and other people around you helping you out, which is a really good reminder.

让我们制定一个我拼尽全力去实现的目标，然后这将迫使我去解决这个问题。”第二，有趣的是，你经常回到导师和周围的其他人那里来帮助你，这是一个非常好的提醒。

You don't have to figure things out for yourself; there's people out there that know these things and they're happy to help.

你不必自己解决问题；有人知道这些事情并且他们很乐意提供帮助。

A question I want to ask and I'll save this, because I we're going to talk about mentorship specifically a little bit later, just like how to find these people.

我想问一个问题，我会保存这个问题，因为稍后我们将专门讨论指导，就像如何找到这些人一样。

Not everyone has access to Bangaly and Adriel, and I'm curious just how you found these folks, how you recommend other people find folks like that.

并不是每个人都能接触到 Bangaly 和 Adriel，我很好奇你是如何找到这些人的，你是如何建议其他人找到这样的人的。

But that's an awesome example.

但这是一个很棒的例子。

One tactic you're talking about here is just work backwards from a forcing function you've created for yourself to learn a thing.

您在这里谈论的一种策略就是从您为自己创建的强制函数逆向学习以学习一件事。

And in this case, what was it you were trying to learn?

在这种情况下，您想学习什么？

You were trying to learn growth, is that right?

你试图学习成长，对吗？

Jules Walter: Yeah, I was trying to learn growth and I wanted to do it in a context of activation, like new onboarding.

Jules Walter：是的，我试图学习成长，我想在激活的背景下做到这一点，比如新入职。

And then later I also wanted to learn growth but in a different context, which was monetization.

后来我也想学习增长，但在不同的背景下，那就是货币化。

How do you drive revenue growth, not just get more users?

如何推动收入增长，而不仅仅是获得更多用户？

And then later it was things like, "How do I learn how to create a growth org?

后来又出现了这样的问题：“我如何学习如何创建一个成长型组织？

How do I structure my team?

我如何构建我的团队？

How do I set work streams that add up to a coherent strategy?" And you just keep going

我如何设置工作流程以形成连贯的战略？”而你就继续前进

Lenny: In those examples, did you do the same thing, you found people to talk to?

莱尼：在那些例子中，你是否做了同样的事情，你找到了可以交谈的人？

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's the same approach.

这是相同的方法。

Sometimes what happens is I have a few mentors that I just keep going to over the years and it's just a top exchange and sometimes I sort of get new mentors who are experts at these new topics.

有时会发生的情况是，我有一些多年来一直关注的导师，这只是一次顶级交流，有时我会得到一些新的导师，他们是这些新主题的专家。

It's a combination of those two things for me.

对我来说这是这两件事的结合。

And the thing is you obviously can learn without this approach, but this approach makes you, at least for me, makes me learn so much faster.

问题是，你显然可以在没有这种方法的情况下学习，但这种方法让你，至少对我来说，让我学得更快。

Lenny: That's probably one of the most interesting things I've learned about mentors, and you're touching on this, that people want to help.

莱尼：这可能是我了解到的关于导师的最有趣的事情之一，你谈到了这一点，人们想要提供帮助。

They're happy to help if people come ask, unless they're just dumb questions or they're just overwhelmed.

如果有人过来询问，他们很乐意提供帮助，除非他们只是愚蠢的问题或者只是不知所措。

People are generally very happy to help.

人们通常很乐意提供帮助。

People are always worried like, "Why would they spend any time trying to help me with this random thing?" It's really the opposite; they're happy to help.

人们总是担心，“为什么他们会花时间试图帮助我解决这个随机的事情？”事实恰恰相反；他们很乐意提供帮助。

Lenny: Coming back to the EQ and IQ buckets, are there other examples of ways you've learned to improve, say, strategy, execution, product sense, things like that?

莱尼：回到情商和智商方面，您是否还学到了其他方法来改进策略、执行力、产品意识等方面的例子？

Jules Walter: Whether you have a mentor or not, there's other things you kind of have to do.

Jules Walter：无论你是否有导师，你都必须做其他事情。

For me, for example, one thing I do is I try to identify what's the best practice for something.

例如，对我来说，我做的一件事就是尝试确定某件事的最佳实践是什么。

For example, let's say strategy.

比如说策略。

There was a phase where I got feedback, "Hey you need to be better at strategy." Then I'm like, "Okay.

在某个阶段，我收到了反馈：“嘿，你需要在策略方面做得更好。”然后我就说：“好吧。

Well, can you help me understand what are people at this company that was awhile back, where you think have done a great job at strategy or what are examples of artifacts?" Then I get these artifacts and I reverse engineering them.

好吧，你能帮我了解一下这家公司的哪些人吗？你认为这家公司在战略方面做得很好，或者有哪些工件的例子？”然后我得到这些工件并对它们进行逆向工程。

I try to think, "Okay, what are the top questions, the answer?

我试着想，“好吧，最重要的问题是什么，答案是什么？

Maybe I'm not answering all these questions.

也许我没有回答所有这些问题。

How do they do it?" And you start seeing the patterns like, "This person did it in a memo, this person did it in a deck." So, it's not about the format, but what is it about?

他们是怎么做到的？”你开始看到这样的模式，“这个人在备忘录中做了它，这个人在甲板上做了它。”所以，这不是格式的问题，而是它是关于什么的？

Then this person had a lot of data, this person is quantitative, qualitative.

那么这个人有很多数据，这个人是定量的、定性的。

So, that's a big part of what I do as well.

所以，这也是我所做工作的重要组成部分。

It's true for all these things.

对于所有这些事情都是如此。

Jules Walter: For execution, it would be things like me attending another PMs meeting.

Jules Walter：对于执行来说，就像我参加另一次 PM 会议一样。

"Oh, I heard this person is amazing at executing.

“哦，听说这个人执行力很厉害。

Let me just see how they're on a meeting." And then you're like, "Whoa, things we didn't notice." Or somebody is great at communicating and I'm like, "Okay.

让我看看他们开会的情况如何。”然后你会说，“哇，我们没有注意到的事情。”或者有人很擅长沟通，我会说：“好吧。

Well, did you send this email?

嗯，这封邮件是你发的吗？

It's great.

太棒了。

Let me save it." I'd have docs where I saved templates of things, and a lot of the reason, I think, people don't learn through osmosis that way is because one is you're not at a company where you can see great artifacts sometimes.

让我来保存它。”我有保存了一些东西模板的文档，我认为，人们不通过这种方式渗透学习的很多原因是因为你不在一家有时可以看到伟大工件的公司。

That's why I mentioned if you can get a better company, do that.

这就是为什么我提到如果你能找到一家更好的公司，那就这么做。

The other thing, too, is even if you see the greatness around you, some people don't try to break it down, to understand: "Why is this one great and not that one?" So, I actually do spend a lot of time every week reflecting like, "Oh, I saw these docs that were great or I saw this presentation this person gave." I sometimes crash presentation audits PMs give to executives, just to see how they handle questions or these sort of things.

另一件事也是，即使你看到周围的伟大之处，有些人也不会试图分解它，去理解：“为什么这个伟大，而不是那个伟大？”所以，我实际上每周都会花很多时间思考，“哦，我看到了这些很棒的文档，或者我看到了这个人所做的演示。”有时我会临时审核产品经理向高管提供的演示文稿，只是为了看看他们如何处理问题或此类事情。

A lot of it is just spending time observing as well.

很多也只是花时间观察。

Lenny: I love this advice, it's so powerful.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议，它非常有力。

Just like, "Who is amazing at this skill?

就像，“谁的这项技能令人惊叹？

And let me just go watch them and learn from them."

让我去观察他们并向他们学习。”

Lenny: Something that you touched on here is, and I talk about this a bunch, that one of the benefits of working at a large company like Google, like Slack, is that you have access to a ton of real examples of strategy documents and vision documents and roadmaps and things like that, that once you're out of a company, like me, nobody shares these things publicly because they're sensitive.

莱尼：你在这里提到的一点是，我谈了很多，在像 Google 这样的大公司工作的好处之一，比如 Slack，就是你可以访问大量战略文档、愿景文档和路线图的真实示例，一旦你像我一样离开公司，没有人会公开分享这些东西，因为它们很敏感。

One of the best benefits of working at a large company is they have access to real life strategy documents, vision documents, things like that, so you should really savor that and collect them and, to your point, just study them.

在大公司工作的最大好处之一是他们可以访问现实生活中的战略文件、愿景文件等，所以你应该认真品味并收集它们，并且根据你的观点，研究它们。

And I love your advice of just working backwards from like, "Okay, here's a strategy that work.

我喜欢你的建议，即逆向工作，“好吧，这是一个有效的策略。

What is it about the strategy that I can use when I'm building my strategy?

当我制定策略时我可以使用什么策略？

What questions are they answering?

他们回答什么问题？

How are they structuring it?" Things like that.

他们是如何构建它的？”诸如此类的事情。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Jules Walter: Similar to the mentor point, people are actually happy to talk to you.

Jules Walter：与导师点类似，人们实际上很乐意与你交谈。

They're even flattered because no one else asked them.

他们甚至感到受宠若惊，因为没有人问过他们。

"Well, hey, I read your doc.

“嗯，嘿，我读过你的医生。

Can we talk about it?"

我们可以谈谈吗？”

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

Whoever gets the...

谁得到了...

What PM ever gets someone coming to them?

哪个 PM 能让人来找他们？

"I love your strategy doc.

“我喜欢你的策略文档。

Tell me all about it.

告诉我一切。

I'd love to talk about that."

我很想谈谈这个。”

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

And then the other thing I'll say, too, is a lot of learning happens through the iterations and not by seeing the final product.

我还要说的另一件事是，很多学习是通过迭代而不是通过看到最终产品来进行的。

We all see these products, like the iPhone and name your favorite product, but you don't know what versions they tried and sort of eliminated.

我们都见过这些产品，比如 iPhone，并说出你最喜欢的产品，但你不知道他们尝试过哪些版本，并被淘汰了。

And that's the benefit you also get at a company that has great product management.

这就是您在拥有出色产品管理的公司中获得的好处。

I actually sometimes tell the PM like, "Hey, don't just show me the one you just did.

事实上，我有时会告诉 PM，“嘿，不要只给我看你刚刚做的那个。

When are you going to do your next strategy?

你打算什么时候制定下一个策略？

Can I join you then?

那我可以加入你们吗？

I just want to sit and watch you write down the outline and just understand your thought process," or "I want to see when you're going to write your next exec update and understand how are you..." And you see them go through these iteration and you see them do things like get feedback that you didn't know they were getting all this feedback from.

我只是想坐下来看着你写下大纲并了解你的思维过程，”或者“我想看看你什么时候写下一个执行更新并了解你怎么样......”你看到他们经历这些迭代，你看到他们做一些事情，比如获得反馈，而你不知道他们从中得到了所有这些反馈。

So, seeing the backstage is also really helpful.

所以，看到后台也确实很有帮助。

Lenny: It's interesting.

莱尼：这很有趣。

Just as you're talking, I'm reflecting on how many benefits there are to working at a world class company.

正如你所说，我正在思考在一家世界级公司工作有多少好处。

You are surrounded by really smart people who you can talk to and ask for advice and watch how they operate.

你周围都是非常聪明的人，你可以与他们交谈、寻求建议并观察他们的运作方式。

You have access to really incredible documents and artifacts that you can learn from.

您可以访问真正令人难以置信的文档和工件，您可以从中学习。

Also, just the logo on your resume is really powerful for future job opportunities, which then comes back to the interview skills that you talked about and how important it is to be good at that to get into a company like that.

另外，简历上的标志对于未来的工作机会来说确实很强大，这又回到了你谈到的面试技巧，以及擅长这一点进入这样的公司是多么重要。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

Okay.

好的。

What about on EQ?

情商方面呢？

Any examples of how you learned some of those skills that you talked about communication or leadership or management or anything along those lines?

有什么例子可以说明您是如何学习您谈到的沟通、领导力、管理或类似方面的一些技能的吗？

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

On the communications side, I read some stuff like Minto's Pyramid Principles.

在沟通方面，我读了一些东西，比如 Minto 的金字塔原则。

Extremely helpful and I know you had an article on that.

非常有帮助，我知道你有一篇关于这方面的文章。

Jules Walter: I mentioned also that whenever I see a great email exec update or whatever, I literally save it in a special folder.

Jules Walter：我还提到，每当我看到很棒的电子邮件执行更新或其他内容时，我都会将其保存在一个特殊的文件夹中。

Jules Walter: Also, by the way, I always ask for feedback more than I think many people and I try to see patterns in feedback.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：另外，顺便说一句，我总是要求更多的反馈，比我想象的很多人都要多，我试图看到反馈中的模式。

For me, one thing I've observed is I tend to write long sentences, coming from a Haitian-French background, but then I see that because I've seen enough feedback that are about it so I see the patterns.

对我来说，我观察到的一件事是，我倾向于写长句子，来自海地法语背景，但后来我发现了这一点，因为我已经看到了足够多的反馈，所以我看到了其中的模式。

Or as I mentioned earlier, I used to not be clear like, "Are you saying this solution or that solution?" It's better sometimes to be wrong but clear than the other way around.

或者正如我之前提到的，我以前不太清楚，“你是说这个解决方案还是那个解决方案？”有时犯错但清楚比相反要好。

That's on the comms side.

那是在通讯方面。

And then the other things, it's mostly, for me, through mentorship, people like Lawrence helping me be real with myself.

然后其他的事情，对我来说，主要是通过指导，像劳伦斯这样的人帮助我面对自己。

I've had a coach for a while and I also do group coaching, which I really love.

我已经有一个教练一段时间了，我也做团体教练，我真的很喜欢。

Right now I'm doing group coaching with a company called Pathways to Leadership.

现在我正在一家名为“领导力之路”的公司进行团体辅导。

Jules Walter: These sort of things have helped me infer what my strengths and weaknesses are and then work on them.

Jules Walter：这类事情帮助我推断出自己的优势和劣势，然后努力解决它们。

And then one thing I'll say also about the EQ: it was the most frustrating learning for me.

关于情商，我还要说一件事：这对我来说是最令人沮丧的学习。

For the IQ stuff, within six months, sometimes three months, I can see clear progress when you see enough documents.

对于智商的东西，在六个月内，有时是三个月内，当你看到足够的文件时，我可以看到明显的进展。

You see five, six of them, you start seeing 80% of the patterns.

你会看到其中的五、六个，然后你就会开始看到 80% 的模式。

But then with the EQ stuff, it's things I've been working on for years.

但对于情商方面的东西，这是我多年来一直在努力的事情。

I am better at them, but I still feel like I'm continuing to work on those things.

我在这些方面做得更好，但我仍然觉得我在这些事情上继续努力。

And a lot of it is like lifting weights or building muscles; you have to do it every day or every week.

其中很多就像举重或锻炼肌肉；你必须每天或每周都这样做。

And then if you stop doing it, over time you atrophy again.

如果你停止这样做，随着时间的推移，你会再次萎缩。

That's something that people need to acknowledge, too.

这也是人们需要承认的事情。

Give yourself time and then also learn these skills one at a time ideally.

给自己一些时间，然后最好一次学习这些技能。

Lenny: Oh, interesting.

莱尼：哦，有趣。

Can you talk a bit more about that learning skills one at a time?

您能一次多谈谈学习技巧吗？

Is your approach just like, "Here's the thing, I'm working on this the next six months.

你的方法是否就像是，“事情是这样的，我将在接下来的六个月内致力于此。

I'm going to focus on that."

我将集中精力于此。”

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

My approach is typically I'll say, "I'm giving myself, I don't know, three months, six months." It depends on what I want to see in my behavior for these things and then I just go all in on that skill.

我的方法通常是，“我给自己，我不知道，三个月，六个月。”这取决于我想在这些事情上的行为中看到什么，然后我就全力以赴地运用这项技能。

Let's say I wanted to learn strategy, I'll be like, "Okay, I'm giving myself, let's say, six months." Every week, I'm going to do something related to learning strategy.

假设我想学习策略，我会说，“好吧，我给自己六个月的时间。”每周我都会做一些与学习策略相关的事情。

It's going to be maybe I read the strategy for another feature product at my company and you just divide, right?

也许我读了我公司另一个特色产品的策略，你就分开了，对吧？

Let's just say there's 10 features or 20, it doesn't matter.

假设有 10 个或 20 个功能，这并不重要。

You just do one a week, so 20 weeks.

你每周只做一次，所以 20 周。

You see what I'm saying?

你明白我在说什么吗？

And then the other thing is, every week I'm also going to practice it towards my outcome.

另一件事是，每周我也会针对我的结果进行练习。

I'm going to spend, I don't know, three hours a week, maybe one hour a day, just thinking through my own product strategy.

我不知道，我会每周花三个小时，也许每天一小时，只是思考我自己的产品策略。

And I do that for six months.

我这样做了六个月。

You do it enough that you get over the hump and then actually develop the skill.

你做得足够多，就能克服困难，然后真正发展这项技能。

Now, the other approach you could take is...

现在，您可以采取的另一种方法是......

What most people do is they read an article on your newsletter or some other place and then like, "Oh, great.

大多数人所做的就是在您的时事通讯或其他地方阅读一篇文章，然后喜欢，“哦，太棒了。

I learned an insight." And then you go back to usual.

我学到了一个见解。”然后你又回到平常。

Lenny: And it's not like at the end of these six months, you're done.

莱尼：这六个月结束后，你还没有完成任务。

I'm strategy expert, I am good on strategy.

我是策略专家，我擅长策略。

To your point, it's building this muscle that will never be fully built.

就你而言，它正在增强这种永远无法完全增强的肌肉。

It just will get stronger.

它只会变得更强。

And every time you invest time learning something, it gets stronger.

每次你投入时间学习某样东西，它就会变得更强大。

Jules Walter: Yeah, exactly.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的，完全正确。

It's not that within six months you are clearly better.

这并不是说六个月内你就明显好转了。

Now, you can invest another six months to get to the next level.

现在，您可以再投入六个月来达到新的水平。

Or you could say, "Now I'm going to switch focus to another skill and get that one to a similar level."

或者你可以说，“现在我要把注意力转移到另一项技能上，并将该技能提升到类似的水平。”

Lenny: Is there a skill you're working on right now?

莱尼：你现在正在研究一项技能吗？

Jules Walter: Always working on something.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：总是在做某事。

One I can call out is listening.

我可以说的一件事就是倾听。

One thing about the EQ stuff, too, by the way is you hear these words, and depending on how familiar you are, you understand or don't understand what it actually means.

顺便说一下，关于情商的一件事是，你听到这些词，并且根据你的熟悉程度，你理解或不理解它的实际含义。

When I say listening, I'm good at seeking information to solve a problem.

当我说倾听时，我擅长寻找信息来解决问题。

If you come to me and you're like, "Hey, Jules, I have this problem," I will know what to listen for and what to ask you.

如果你来找我，然后说：“嘿，朱尔斯，我有这个问题。”我会知道该听什么、问什么。

"Hey, Lenny, can you tell me A, B?" And then I'll help you solve the problem.

“嘿，莱尼，你能告诉我A、B吗？”然后我会帮你解决问题。

However, there's also different listening patterns, one of which is you just create space for someone.

然而，也有不同的倾听模式，其中之一是你只是为某人创造空间。

It's not like you're seeking a particular information, just give them space to tell you what they want to tell you.

这并不是说您正在寻找特定的信息，只需给他们空间来告诉您他们想告诉您什么。

And then the other side of it, too, is you help that person feel heard, "Hey, I feel like you actually understand me and you've heard what I'm saying." So, that's the part I am working on.

另一方面，你也可以帮助那个人感到被倾听，“嘿，我觉得你真的理解我，你已经听到了我在说什么。”这就是我正在做的部分。

Lenny: You mentioned the Matt Mochary episode.

莱尼：你提到了马特·莫卡里那一集。

I imagine you've been listening to that, because that has a lot of great advice.

我想你已经听过了，因为其中有很多很好的建议。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

It's those kinds of things, right?

就是这样的事情，对吧？

And then he talked about saying back to people what you heard, asking for more information, et cetera.

然后他谈到向人们复述你所听到的内容，询问更多信息等等。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

You mentioned that you asked for feedback from your peers, and I wrote that down.

你提到你要求同事提供反馈，我把它写下来了。

I wanted to double-click on that a little bit.

我想双击它。

How do you actually approach asking for feedback?

您实际上如何寻求反馈？

Do you sound like a survey?

你听起来像是一项调查吗？

Do you just ask people in meeting?

你只在会议上询问别人吗？

How do you do that?

你是怎么做到的？

Jules Walter: The feedback piece, it's something that I had to get better at.

Jules Walter：反馈部分，这是我必须做得更好的事情。

Over time, I'm asking for it, because what I realize is if people don't feel comfortable with you, they won't give you feedback.

随着时间的推移，我会要求这样做，因为我意识到，如果人们对你感到不舒服，他们就不会给你反馈。

It's depending on the risk, right?

这取决于风险，对吗？

Especially if it's constructive feedback.

特别是如果它是建设性的反馈。

By the way, that's also something that's hard about being underrepresented.

顺便说一句，这也是代表性不足的一个难题。

People sometimes don't have the same natural level of connection with you.

人们有时与你没有同样自然的联系。

I basically learned to go out of my way to make people comfortable giving me feedback.

我基本上学会了不遗余力地让人们轻松地向我提供反馈。

There's different techniques and Matt Mochary also talks about some of them.

有不同的技术，Matt Mochary 也谈到了其中的一些。

Sometime it's basically ask in a very specific way, "Hey, I did this presentation.

有时它基本上是以一种非常具体的方式询问，“嘿，我做了这个演示。

I'm working on, I don't know, having more executive presence.

我不知道，我正在努力让自己拥有更多的执行力。

Did you feel that?

你有这样的感觉吗？

To which extent did you feel that I showed executive presence?" So, it's a very specific thing versus, "Hey, how did it go?" That's one thing you can do.

你觉得我在多大程度上表现出了高管风范？”所以，这是一个非常具体的事情，而不是“嘿，进展如何？”这是你可以做的一件事。

Jules Walter: Other thing you can do sometimes is you give yourself critical feedback in front of them and then you give them a chance to agree or disagree.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：有时你可以做的另一件事是在他们面前给自己批评性的反馈，然后给他们一个同意或不同意的机会。

"Hey, I feel like this presentation didn't go well for this reason.

“嘿，我觉得因为这个原因这次演讲进行得不太顺利。

What do you think?

你觉得怎么样？

But actually I thought it would've been fine; however, this other thing could have been better." And then the other thing I'll say that is very, very important if you're asking people for feedback is if you manage to get them to take the risk to give you the feedback, your answer has to be enthusiastically grateful.

但实际上我以为这样就可以了；然而，这件事本来可以做得更好。”然后我要说的另一件事是，如果你向人们寻求反馈，那是非常非常重要的，如果你设法让他们冒险给你反馈，你的回答必须充满热情。

That's the key.

这就是关键。

What people knew at Slack, Google, et cetera, is if you give me feedback, I'll be like, "Hey, thank you so much.

Slack、Google 等公司的人们都知道，如果你给我反馈，我会说，“嘿，非常感谢你。

This is super helpful," because people are like, "Oh, he actually likes the feedback." Now, inside, my heart might be melting.

这非常有帮助，”因为人们会说，“哦，他实际上很喜欢这些反馈。”现在，我的内心可能正在融化。

I'm like, "Oh, I thought I got better at this." You know what I mean?

我想，“哦，我以为我在这方面做得更好了。”你知道我的意思？

Jules Walter: But externally, I'm like, "Hey, thank you," and I mean it.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：但从表面上看，我会说，“嘿，谢谢你”，我是认真的。

I think that's the key that most people don't sort of focus on.

我认为这是大多数人没有关注的关键。

And if you get more feedback, then you'll just get better at the things.

如果你得到更多反馈，那么你就会在事情上做得更好。

Lenny: That is such a good advice, all these very tactical ways of getting actual real feedback from people.

莱尼：这是一个很好的建议，所有这些非常有策略的方法都可以从人们那里获得真正的反馈。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

And then one thing I'll say, too, by the way, it's harder to get feedback on the EQ stuff, and that's also why it's harder to develop and why a lot of people reach terminal levels in product, because people are like, "Oh, they lack emotional intelligence." They say that in calibration rooms but not in your face, so that's also what you want when you hear feedback.

顺便说一句，我还要说一件事，获得有关情商的反馈更困难，这也是为什么开发更困难以及为什么很多人在产品中达到最终水平的原因，因为人们会说，“哦，他们缺乏情商。”他们是在校准室说的，但不是当着你的面说的，所以当你听到反馈时，这也是你想要的。

You don't want just to like, "Hey, here's my piece of feedback that I can prove." You also want the part that is like, "Here's how you make me feel or how you come across that...

你不想只是喜欢，“嘿，这是我可以证明的反馈。”你还想要这样的部分，“这就是你给我的感觉，或者你是如何遇到的......

If this is taken out of context, it won't be good for...

如果断章取义的话，这对...

I don't want this to be shared publicly or taken out of context, but I want you to know." And it could be things like, "Hey, when I talk to you, sometimes I feel like, I don't know, you're angry." And then I'm like, "Oh, really?

我不想公开分享或断章取义，但我想让你知道。”可能是这样的事情，“嘿，当我和你说话时，有时我觉得，我不知道，你生气了。”然后我就想，“哦，真的吗？

In what scenario?" And then it's like, "Oh, I was so focused and listening to you intently that I could see now why I come across that way."

什么情况下？”然后就好像，“哦，我是如此专注，专心地听你说话，我现在明白为什么我会遇到这样的情况了。”

Jules Walter: But you could literally go your whole career and then nobody ever says these things, right?

朱尔斯·沃尔特：但是你实际上可以在整个职业生涯中都没有人说过这些话，对吧？

And that's the kind of feedback that I personally find most helpful is the subjective feedback, because nobody will tell me those things.

我个人认为最有帮助的反馈是主观反馈，因为没有人会告诉我这些事情。

Once somebody I trust tell me and I'm like...

一旦我信任的人告诉我，我就像......

Oh, here's an example.

哦，这是一个例子。

I mentioned earlier I'm good at asking questions.

我之前提到过我善于提问。

I had somebody ask like, "Tell me.

有人问我，“告诉我。

Hey, sometimes when you ask questions, you sound more junior." And I was like, "Huh." And then I can see that because I asked the question plainly like, "Hey, why did you do this or how did you that," instead of also saying where I'm coming from, "Hey, I noticed this blah, blah, why, blah?" You know what I'm saying?

嘿，有时候当你提问的时候，你听起来更年轻。”我当时想，“嗯。”然后我就能看到这一点，因为我问的问题很简单，比如“嘿，你为什么这样做，或者你是怎么那样做的”，而不是说我来自哪里，“嘿，我注意到这个废话，废话，为什么，废话？”你知道我在说什么吗？

Instead of showing I have an understanding of the thing and then asking a follow-up question, I just ask the question bluntly without context and people feel like, "Hey, I'm asking a very basic question." So, that's the kind of feedback that I particularly value.

我不会表现出我对事情的理解，然后提出后续问题，而是在没有上下文的情况下直率地提出问题，人们会觉得，“嘿，我在问一个非常基本的问题。”所以，这就是我特别重视的反馈。

Lenny: The feedback you're getting is pretty incredible, like the stuff you shared about someone saying you come across as angry in a meeting if you ask questions or you sound a junior.

莱尼：你得到的反馈非常令人难以置信，就像你分享的那样，有人说如果你在会议上提出问题或者你听起来像个初级员工，你就会显得很生气。

I don't know if I've ever gotten anyone to give me that brutally honest feedback.

我不知道是否有人给过我如此残酷诚实的反馈。

When those specific cases, what was it about these people that helped them give you this feedback?

当这些具体案例时，这些人是怎样帮助他们给你这个反馈的？

Is that what you talked about, you built trust with them over the years or is there something you did to get that kind of feedback?

这是您所说的吗？多年来您与他们建立了信任，还是您做了一些事情来获得这种反馈？

Jules Walter: I mean, it's definitely they trusted me and they cared about me.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我的意思是，他们绝对信任我并且关心我。

They trust that if they tell me the feedback without translating, that I would see the intent behind it.

他们相信，如果他们在不翻译的情况下告诉我反馈，我会看到其背后的意图。

And they were able to do that, because after months and years of working together, they know how to respond to feedback.

他们之所以能够做到这一点，是因为经过数月乃至数年的合作，他们知道如何回应反馈。

Because what happens is most people, when you have to get feedback, you kind of have to really do a lot of translation work so that it lands, "I don't want to hurt your feeling.

因为大多数人都会遇到这样的情况，当你必须得到反馈时，你必须做大量的翻译工作，这样才能传达出“我不想伤害你的感觉。

I don't want you to take this." I just told people, "You don't have to that with me." That's one.

我不想让你接受这个。”我只是告诉人们，“你不必对我这么做。”这是一个。

And then the other thing, too, is people reciprocate also how you talk.

另一件事也是，人们也会回应你说话的方式。

I'm not saying I talk to people like this, but I try to be vulnerable with people so they know we can be vulnerable and things are safe like, "I really want to hear things the way you experience it."

我并不是说我和这样的人交谈，但我试着在人们面前表现出脆弱的一面，这样他们就知道我们可以脆弱，事情是安全的，就像，“我真的想听听你经历的事情。”

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, there's a lot of foundation setting that you do to create this environment where people are like, "Jules, here's something that's going wrong.

因此，你需要做很多基础工作来创建这样的环境，让人们会说：“朱尔斯，这里出了问题。

You can work on this."

你可以在这方面努力。”

Lenny: That's an awesome takeaway.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的外卖。

One other thread I wanted to pull on is you mentioned focusing on strengths and how that ends up being really important.

我想谈的另一条线索是你提到关注优势以及它如何变得非常重要。

Something I'm a big believer in is focusing on strengths versus trying to make your weaknesses much, much stronger.

我坚信的一点是，专注于自己的优势，而不是试图让自己的劣势变得更加强大。

Is there any advice you can share to better understand what your strengths are, why that's an approach to take in developing your skills?

您是否可以分享一些建议，以更好地了解您的优势是什么，为什么这是发展您技能的方法？

Jules Walter: For the strengths, breakthroughs.

Jules Walter：为了优势、突破。

For me, a lot of it was talking to my mentor, Lawrence Ripsher.

对我来说，很多事情都是和我的导师劳伦斯·里普舍尔（Lawrence Ripsher）交谈。

And I organized this event for Black PMs at Pinterest, where Lawrence was speaking, and then we were talking about, "Hey, watch should we talk about, et cetera." I don't know how, but in the conversation he talked about doubling down your strengths more than on fixing your weaknesses, and then he used me as an example.

我在 Pinterest 为黑人 PM 组织了这次活动，劳伦斯在活动中发表了讲话，然后我们谈论，“嘿，看看我们应该谈论什么，等等。”我不知道他是怎么做到的，但在谈话中他谈到了要加倍发挥你的优势，而不是弥补你的弱点，然后他以我为例。

Then the fun part is he had this approach of how you actually find your strength.

有趣的是，他有这种方法来帮助你真正找到自己的力量。

It's a very simple question, where basically he's like, "Hey, what is something that a lot of people say you're good at, but you think it's not a big deal or it's not that important?" And that's the key.

这是一个非常简单的问题，基本上他会说，“嘿，很多人都说你擅长什么，但你认为这没什么大不了的，或者没那么重要？”这就是关键。

I always that's what resonated with me.

我总是这引起我的共鸣。

I was like, "Oh, a lot of people keep saying I'm really good at networking."

我当时想，“哦，很多人一直说我真的很擅长社交。”

Jules Walter: I'm like semi-introvert, so I'm like, "Hold on, I don't know." not everyone or people will tell me, "Hey, you have asked great questions." And I'm like, "I asked basic questions." And then he helped me understand, "Actually, that's how you know it's a strength." Now, what you need to figure out is how do you get more out of that strength.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我是半内向的人，所以我会说，“等等，我不知道。”不是每个人都会告诉我，“嘿，你问了很好的问题。”我说，“我问了一些基本问题。”然后他帮助我理解，“事实上，这就是你知道它是一种力量的方式。”现在，你需要弄清楚如何从这种力量中获得更多。

An analogy, by the way, is imagine that you saw a fish and you were like, "Hey, you're really good at swimming." And then the fish would be like, "Oh.

顺便说一下，一个类比是想象你看到一条鱼，然后你会说：“嘿，你真的很擅长游泳。”然后鱼会说：“哦。

Duh, doesn't everybody swim?" And so, that's the key and I invite people to think about that question like, "What's something people keep telling you you're good at, but you yourself don't think is a big deal?" And that's how I was able to find a bunch of my strengths.

呃，大家不都会游泳吗？”所以，这就是关键，我邀请人们思考这个问题，比如“人们一直告诉你你擅长什么，但你自己认为没什么大不了的？”这就是我如何找到自己的优势的方法。

]

]

Jules Walter: For me, generally I'm thoughtful, ask great questions.

Jules Walter：对我来说，一般来说我都很体贴，会问很棒的问题。

I also simplify problems a lot.

我也把问题简化了很多。

I mean, we work together on a product sense article, which is a very complex thing, made it more simple.

我的意思是，我们一起写了一篇产品感文章，这是一件非常复杂的事情，让它变得更加简单。

And then once you identify the strength, then it helps to also think about why are you good at this thing?

一旦你确定了优势，那么思考一下为什么你擅长这件事会有所帮助？

Because that's the underlying resource that you have.

因为那是您拥有的基础资源。

A big part for me is I'm actually quite curious.

对我来说很重要的一点是我实际上很好奇。

And fun fact, I don't think of myself as curious, but people keep telling me I am.

有趣的是，我不认为自己很好奇，但人们一直告诉我我很好奇。

And even my mom was telling me when I was a kid, I used to always try to unscrew toys to see how they work in the inside.

甚至我妈妈也告诉我，当我还是个孩子的时候，我总是试图拧开玩具，看看它们内部是如何工作的。

That's one thing: being curious help me ask the questions and so on.

这是一回事：好奇可以帮助我提出问题等等。

And then the other thing, too, is once you have the strength, you want to understand the shadow side of it, and that's the connection between your strength and weaknesses.

还有一件事是，一旦你拥有了力量，你就想了解它的阴暗面，那就是你的优势和劣势之间的联系。

Jules Walter: That was a key breakthrough for me, especially Lawrence helped me understand that.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：这对我来说是一个关键的突破，尤其是劳伦斯帮助我理解了这一点。

Strengthen and weakness, it's not a binary thing.

强与弱，不是二元的。

It's like the same thing, but it's a dial.

类似的东西，但它是一个表盘。

In some context it's good, in other contexts it's serving you.

在某些情况下它是好的，在其他情况下它为你服务。

An example in my cases is...

我的案例中的一个例子是......

I talked about I ask great questions, but sometimes I ask a question without context, I might come across as less knowledgeable.

我谈到我会提出很好的问题，但有时我会在没有上下文的情况下提出问题，我可能会被认为知识渊博。

Or another thing for me is I'm able to take very complex problems and then create a mental model that's much simpler, whether it's growth or other things.

或者对我来说另一件事是我能够解决非常复杂的问题，然后创建一个更简单的心理模型，无论是成长还是其他事情。

But until I come up with that mental model, if I'm in a meeting with you, I won't talk much about that topic.

但在我想出这个思维模型之前，如果我和你开会，我不会过多谈论这个话题。

Basically, I'm more quiet than other people when people want to hear my point of view because I'm just listening and trying to create a mental model of the situation.

基本上，当人们想听我的观点时，我比其他人更安静，因为我只是在倾听并尝试创建一种情况的心理模型。

You're seeing how the same strength is perceived as a weakness depending on context.

您会看到，根据上下文，相同的优势如何被视为劣势。

And once you have that...

一旦你拥有了那个...

For me, I feel more empowered.

对我来说，我感觉自己更有力量了。

I'm like, "Oh, I just have to dial down a little bit here or dial a little bit here," and I also know this thing is serving me, which is why I keep doing the bad side of it.

我想，“哦，我只需在这里拨一点点或者在这里拨一点点，”我也知道这件事对我有用，这就是为什么我一直在做坏事。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

This all often comes back to mentors in your life.

这一切常常会回到你生活中的导师身上。

I want to get to talking about mentorship and how you find your mentors, how you work with them, all that kind of stuff; something we've been touching on a bunch and I'm excited to begin to.

我想谈谈指导，以及如何找到导师，如何与他们合作，所有这些事情；这是我们一直在讨论的事情，我很高兴开始这样做。

Maybe to start, can you just talk about some of the mentors you've had in your life, some of the most impactful mentors that you've had?

也许首先，你能谈谈你一生中遇到过的一些导师，一些对你来说最有影响力的导师吗？

Jules Walter: I've definitely had a large number of mentors over the years.

Jules Walter：这些年来我确实有很多导师。

Fun fact, when I came to the area eight years ago, I didn't know anyone.

有趣的是，八年前我来到这个地区时，我一个人都不认识。

Jules Walter: It took a while to build those relationships.

Jules Walter：建立这些关系花了一段时间。

I talked earlier about Bangaly Kaba who sort of helped me figure out how to grow Slack even though he wasn't working outside, but helped me have the frameworks.

我之前谈到了 Bangaly Kaba，他在某种程度上帮助我弄清楚了如何发展 Slack，尽管他不在外面工作，但他帮助我拥有了框架。

I talked about Lawrence Ripsher.

我谈到了劳伦斯·里普舍。

He helped me discover my strengths and also how to lean into them.

他帮助我发现了自己的优势以及如何发挥它们。

Aaron Teague is another friend and mentor who brought me to Google, actually.

事实上，亚伦·蒂格 (Aaron Teague) 是我的另一位朋友和导师，也是他将我带到了谷歌。

And there's also Bradley Horowitz, former VP of Google Photos, also helped me in terms of how do you think about leadership and so on.

还有 Google Photos 前副总裁 Bradley Horowitz 也在你如何看待领导力等方面给了我帮助。

Many other folks, Nikhyl Singhal, VP at Meta helped me with PM career.

许多其他人，例如 Meta 的副总裁 Nikhyl Singhal，在 PM 职业生涯中帮助了我。

So, lots of mentors for sure.

所以，肯定有很多导师。

Lenny: Okay, that's the killer list.

莱尼：好的，这就是杀手名单。

Two questions.

两个问题。

One, what do you look for in a mentor when you're trying to find someone to work with?

第一，当你试图寻找合作伙伴时，你会寻找什么样的导师？

And then two, how do you actually find these people?

第二个问题，你如何真正找到这些人？

Most people listening are like, "Wow, I would love an amazing mentor to help me in my career.

大多数听的人都会说：“哇，我希望有一位出色的导师来帮助我的职业生涯。

I don't know how to find one." What advice do you have for folks to finding a mentor?

我不知道如何找到一个。”对于人们寻找导师，您有什么建议？

Jules Walter: I look for two things.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我寻找两件事。

One is, are you good at one specific thing I'm trying to get better at?

一是，你擅长某件我正在努力改进的具体事情吗？

And then two is, are you good at explaining it?

第二个问题是，你善于解释吗？

Those two, at least for me, they're important.

至少对我来说，这两点很重要。

I know people are really good at their roles, at their job and at the subject, but they don't actually know how they do it or they don't really want to explain or cannot explain easily.

我知道人们确实很擅长自己的角色、工作和主题，但他们实际上并不知道自己是如何做到的，或者他们不想解释或无法轻易解释。

So, that's what I look for.

所以，这就是我所寻找的。

And then in terms of where I find these people, it's really everywhere.

然后就我在哪里找到这些人而言，他们真的无处不在。

If you look at the list I mentioned earlier, Bangaly I met at an event.

如果你看一下我之前提到的名单，我是在一次活动中认识的 Bangaly。

Facebook had a recruiting event, I showed up, I see this guy, I'm like, "Oh.

Facebook 有一个招聘活动，我出现了，我看到这个人，我想，“哦。

Hi." Chat a little bit.

嗨。”聊一点。

I talked about Lawrence, who's now a close friend.

我谈到了劳伦斯，他现在是我的好朋友了。

I met Lawrence at a dinner.

我在一次晚宴上认识了劳伦斯。

He organized a dinner for underrepresented PMs, we chatted, one thing led to the other, and then he became a mentor and friend.

他为代表性不足的产品经理组织了一次晚宴，我们聊天，一件事引发了另一件事，然后他成为了导师和朋友。

Bradley was at a fundraiser.

布拉德利参加了一场筹款活动。

And Nikhyl was an intro via email.

Nikhyl 是通过电子邮件进行的介绍。

Somebody was like, "Oh, you should meet Nikhyl."

有人说，“哦，你应该见见尼基尔。”

Jules Walter: I know this sounds counterintuitive.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我知道这听起来违反直觉。

I don't think the hard part is where to find them; it's more about finding the right person and then how do you get a foot in?

我认为困难的部分不是在哪里找到它们；而是在哪里找到它们。更重要的是找到合适的人，然后如何介入？

Now, what I've seen...

现在，我所看到的...

A lot of people, sometimes they get mentors who are too senior or who don't actually think about the topic they're interested in.

很多人有时会遇到级别太高的导师，或者实际上并没有考虑他们感兴趣的话题。

Maybe they did five years ago, but once you find the right person, the key is like, "How do you have that initial conversation?

也许五年前他们就这么做了，但是一旦你找到了合适的人，关键就在于，“你是如何进行最初的对话的？

How do you get the foot in the door?" And what I've found is you should make the smallest ask possible, which is the opposite of what 95% of people do.

怎么把脚迈进门呢？”我发现你应该提出尽可能小的要求，这与 95% 的人的做法相反。

95% of people is like, "Hey, I've never met you, but I heard your talk or I saw you on LinkedIn or whatever.

95% 的人会说，“嘿，我从未见过你，但我听过你的演讲，或者我在 LinkedIn 或其他地方看到过你。

Can we set up a call?"

我们可以打电话吗？”

Jules Walter: That's like a big ask.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：这是一个很大的要求。

What I do...

我做什么...

For example, there's this person who came to Slack, he was head of product of a major company and then he gave a talk about different methods to improve products.

例如，有一个人来到 Slack，他是一家大公司的产品负责人，然后他讲了改进产品的不同方法。

He had this concept of finding the heat for products.

他的理念是寻找产品的热度。

He spoke at the company, I got his email, and I reached out in the evening and I was like, "Hey, thanks so much for speaking today.

他在公司发表了讲话，我收到了他的电子邮件，晚上我联系了他，我说：“嘿，非常感谢你今天的发言。

We talked about finding the heat for products.

我们讨论了寻找产品的热度。

Is there an example of product that you think was created with this approach?" Something he could answer in literally two minutes via email?

有没有您认为是用这种方法创建的产品示例？”他可以通过电子邮件在两分钟内回复的东西吗？

That was my question.

这就是我的问题。

It wasn't like, "Hey, you talked.

并不是说，“嘿，你说话了。

Now, I feel entitled to meet with you." But then the key is once you get that foot in the door, it could be a quick email, a tweet, a quick chat at an event, that sort of thing, and you get some advice that's useful, the key is to circle back with them at a later point and show that you've actually made good use of the advice.

现在，我觉得有资格和你见面。”但关键是，一旦你迈出了第一步，它可能是一封快速电子邮件、一条推文、一次活动中的快速聊天等等，你会得到一些有用的建议，关键是稍后再与他们联系，并表明你实际上已经很好地利用了这些建议。

Jules Walter: I think that's the thing nobody does.

Jules Walter：我认为没人会这么做。

What I would do...

我会做什么...

For example, there's currently the CEO of a top tech company I met an event.

例如，目前我在一次活动中认识了一家顶级科技公司的首席执行官。

She spoke there and then she gave some advice that was useful.

她在那里讲话，然后给出了一些有用的建议。

I emailed her a follow-up type thing and then she gave me advice about how to rethink the mission statement for my nonprofit, all via email.

我通过电子邮件向她发送了后续类型的信息，然后她就如何重新考虑我的非营利组织的使命宣言提供了建议，所有这些都是通过电子邮件进行的。

Then at some point I was like, "Hey, I've applied your problem trend competency framework to crafting the mission for my nonprofit.

然后在某个时候我想，“嘿，我已经应用了你的问题趋势能力框架来为我的非营利组织制定使命。

Here's where we landed.

这就是我们着陆的地方。

That was super helpful.

这非常有帮助。

Thank you so much." Replies back.

非常感谢你。”回复了。

And then what I would do then later is maybe a month later or two months, X months later, I can reach out again for another problem and maybe I could say, "Hey, this time it's a little bit more nuanced.

然后我稍后要做的可能是一个月后或两个月后，X个月后，我可以再次解决另一个问题，也许我可以说，“嘿，这一次有点微妙。

Can we grab 15 minutes?" And the person was like, "Yeah, sure." That person was very, very busy.

我们能抢到15分钟吗？”那人说：“是的，当然。”那个人非常非常忙碌。

I was like, "Hey, let's do it." And then over time we become Facebook friends, that sort of thing, but that's the approach I take.

我当时想，“嘿，我们开始吧。”然后随着时间的推移，我们成为 Facebook 好友之类的事情，但这就是我采取的方法。

Lenny: That's such a good advice.

莱尼：这是个好建议。

It reminds me of Tim Ferris's advice also, which is just like, "Don't go up to someone and be like, 'Will you be my mentor?'" Everyone's going to be like, "I don't have time for that." Instead, to your point, it's the exact opposite.

这也让我想起蒂姆·费里斯的建议，就像是，“不要走到某人面前说，‘你愿意成为我的导师吗？’”每个人都会说，“我没有时间这样做。”相反，就你的观点而言，情况恰恰相反。

Just start asking simple questions and then over time build up relationship, and then over time, maybe you start meeting regularly.

开始问简单的问题，然后随着时间的推移建立关系，然后随着时间的推移，也许你们开始定期见面。

But don't start big; start small.

但不要开始大事；从小处开始。

Lenny: It's not like you just have one mentor.

莱尼：你并不是只有一位导师。

You've listed a whole bunch of people that have helped you over your career.

您列出了一大堆在您的职业生涯中为您提供过帮助的人。

It's not like, "Here's the person, they have to be perfect." It sounds like you kind of identify, "Here's a skill or an area I want to focus and this person is going to be really good at that."

这并不是说“这个人就是这样，他们必须是完美的”。听起来你有点认同，“这是我想要关注的一项技能或一个领域，而这个人将非常擅长于此。”

Lenny: Then I also just love the point about it feels really hard to find an amazing mentor.

莱尼：那么我也喜欢这样的观点：找到一位出色的导师真的很难。

From what I'm hearing, the main thing you do is just go to things, attend events, basically go events, meet people, right?

据我所知，你做的主要事情就是去参加活动，参加活动，基本上是参加活动，会见人，对吗？

That's kind of the foundation in which you're sharing is just meet as many people as you can, and amongst that group, you'll find people that are probably going to be helpful.

这就是你分享的基础，就是结识尽可能多的人，在这个群体中，你会发现可能会有所帮助的人。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

And I understand it can be harder for some folks.

我知道这对某些人来说可能会更困难。

I mean, now I have two young kids, so I don't do as many events.

我的意思是，现在我有两个年幼的孩子，所以我不参加那么多活动。

I've also met quite a few people through introductions, sometimes being cold outreach.

我也通过介绍认识了很多人，有时是冷冰冰的接触。

I had a chat with Shishir through cold outreach a very clear question, and then he offered to come to Black PMs and share some insights.

我通过冷漠的外展与 Shishir 聊了一个非常明确的问题，然后他主动提出来见黑人总理并分享一些见解。

Those kinds of things happen, too, but you have to show the person that you're going to make really good use of their time.

这类事情也会发生，但你必须向对方表明你将真正充分利用他们的时间。

You have to give really specific contexts like, "Hey, let's grab coffee." It's like, "Hey, here's a very specific question.

你必须给出非常具体的上下文，比如“嘿，我们去喝杯咖啡吧。”就像，“嘿，这是一个非常具体的问题。

Can you share some thoughts or point via email?" And then they might offer, "Hey, why don't we just talk?" That sort of thing, too.

您能通过电子邮件分享一些想法或观点吗？”然后他们可能会提出：“嘿，我们为什么不谈谈呢？”也是这样的事。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: That works really well.

莱尼：效果非常好。

Anytime I get an email request of, "Hey, could we do a 15-minute Zoom or a copy chat," I quickly do not have time for that.

每当我收到一封电子邮件请求，“嘿，我们可以进行 15 分钟的 Zoom 会议或复制聊天吗？”我很快就没有时间这样做。

But an actual question that I can be really helpful with really quickly, that's so much easier, so that makes a lot of sense.

但我可以很快地回答一个实际问题，这要容易得多，所以很有意义。

The next thing I wanted to ask you is: how do you build and continue this relationship?

接下来我想问你的是：你如何建立并延续这种关系？

And then once you actually start engaging regularly, what do you suggest folks talk about in these meetings if they're ongoing.

然后，一旦您真正开始定期参与，如果这些会议正在进行，您建议人们在这些会议中谈论什么。

Jules Walter: I make sure to bring something very specific that I'm dealing with where they can provide input.

Jules Walter：我确保带来一些我正在处理的非常具体的东西，让他们可以提供意见。

And this is the opposite of what many people do where they're like, "Hey, can you tell me about how you...

这与许多人的做法相反，他们会说：“嘿，你能告诉我你是如何......

Whatever, your path to PM," which may or may not be relevant to them, versus, "Hey, I've interviewed for three companies.

不管怎样，你的 PM 之路，”这可能与他们相关，也可能无关，而不是“嘿，我面试过三家公司。

I'm trying to decide among those three.

我正在尝试在这三个中做出决定。

Can I walk you through my thought process and get your feedback?" So, it's very different.

我可以向您介绍我的思考过程并获取您的反馈吗？”所以，这是非常不同的。

I definitely make sure I bring a very specific context, and sometime it could be...

我绝对确保我带来了一个非常具体的背景，有时它可能是......

I mentioned the example of Bangali like, "Hey, I'm now a growth PM at Slack.

我提到了 Bangali 的例子，“嘿，我现在是 Slack 的增长产品经理。

I'm trying to improve activation.

我正在努力提高激活率。

Can I talk to you about how you approach growth in general?" Or it could be, "Hey, I'm having internal..." Let's say I have internal mentors at Google and I have a few, then it's like, "Hey, I'm about to have this negotiation with this team.

我可以和您谈谈您总体上是如何实现增长的吗？”或者它可能是，“嘿，我正在内部......”假设我在谷歌有内部导师，并且我有一些，然后就像，“嘿，我即将与这个团队进行谈判。

Can I walk you through my thought process and hear your advice?" So, it's very specific things.

我可以向您介绍我的思考过程并听取您的建议吗？”所以，这是非常具体的事情。

Jules Walter: And then the other thing I'll say, too, is when I talk to mentors, I always take notes.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我还要说的另一件事是，当我与导师交谈时，我总是做笔记。

I mean, I'm seeing you even here in this interview.

我的意思是，我什至在这次采访中见到了你。

You're taking notes.

你正在做笔记。

These are basic things people don't actually think about it sometimes.

这些是人们有时实际上并没有考虑到的基本事情。

And then when I follow up, whether it's via email or in person, I bring up older conversations.

然后，当我跟进时，无论是通过电子邮件还是亲自进行跟进，我都会提起以前的对话。

It's like, "Hey, remember last time we told about X?

就像是，“嘿，还记得上次我们谈论 X 的事吗？

I did it," or "Hey, how's your daughter?

我做到了，”或者“嘿，你女儿怎么样？

I know she was going to college this semester.

我知道她这个学期就要上大学了。

How did that go?" So, it always feels like a continuation of a conversation and it feels like an actual relationship instead of transactional interactions.

进展如何？”因此，它总是感觉像是对话的延续，感觉像是一种实际的关系，而不是事务性互动。

And then the other thing, too, is I try really hard to identify ways that I can be helpful.

另一件事情是，我非常努力地寻找可以提供帮助的方法。

Sometimes, at the end of chat I'll be like, "Hey, is there anything I can help you with?

有时，在聊天结束时我会说：“嘿，有什么可以帮助你的吗？

Anything top of mind for you?" And sometimes the person could be senior or wealthy, doesn't matter, and they're like, "Actually, yes.

你有什么心事吗？”有时这个人可能是资深人士或富有的人，但这并不重要，他们会说，“实际上，是的。

I'd love to better understand how the team is really doing.

我很想更好地了解团队的实际情况。

Nobody will tell me the truth," or "Hey, I am trying to hire for this role.

没有人会告诉我真相，”或者“嘿，我正在尝试招聘这个职位。

You have Black PMs.

你有黑人PM。

Do you mind sharing?" There's always ways you can help, but most people are so focused on themselves that they miss out on these opportunities.

你介意分享吗？”总有一些方法可以帮助您，但大多数人都过于关注自己，以至于错过了这些机会。

Lenny: The point about coming back to the person and sharing what impact their advice had and how it went is so good, because to your point, it just feels like you're sharing all this advice and just isn't going anywhere.

莱尼：回到对方身边并分享他们的建议产生的影响以及效果如何，这一点非常好，因为就你而言，感觉就像你在分享所有这些建议，但没有任何进展。

And then note-taking, such great stuff.

然后做笔记，真是太棒了。

This is really good advice.

这真是个好建议。

I could see how it would work on me if someone's asking me for advice.

我知道如果有人向我寻求建议，这对我会有什么作用。

Jules Walter: By the way, I mean we didn't know each other two years ago, right?

朱尔斯·沃尔特：顺便说一句，我的意思是我们两年前还不认识，对吧？

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

It's like a similar process, where we got to know each other mostly via email and led to the other, and we try to help each other.

这就像一个类似的过程，我们主要通过电子邮件相互了解并认识对方，我们尝试互相帮助。

Lenny: And look at us now.

莱尼：现在看看我们。

Any final thoughts before we wrap up and head to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们结束并开始我们非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么最后的想法吗？

Jules Walter: I have found the process of learning how to be a PM very difficult and I also find it quite rewarding.

Jules Walter：我发现学习如何成为一名产品经理的过程非常困难，但我也发现它非常有价值。

And I want to set expectation, especially for people who are early in their career, people may be frustrated by the process, because you have all these skills.

我想设定期望，特别是对于职业生涯早期的人来说，人们可能会对这个过程感到沮丧，因为你拥有所有这些技能。

We listed, I don't know, half a dozen, a dozen that you want to get better at.

我们列出了，我不知道，六打，一打你想变得更好的。

So, be patient.

所以，要有耐心。

Then also it takes a while to see massive differences, but once you see those differences, you set yourself apart from your peers.

然后，也需要一段时间才能看到巨大的差异，但一旦你看到这些差异，你就会使自己与同龄人区分开来。

That's one thing.

这是一回事。

And then the other thing, too, is it's really building muscles more so for the EQ stuff, but even for the IQ stuff.

还有另一件事是，它确实可以增强肌肉，尤其是对于情商方面，甚至对于智商方面也是如此。

You have to practice.

你必须练习。

It's not just read Lenny's top 10 articles for two hours and then you're good.

这不仅仅是花两个小时阅读 Lenny 的 10 篇热门文章就可以了。

Read them, do what they say, get feedback after you do what they say and say like, "Huh, it worked for me.

阅读它们，按照他们所说的去做，在按照他们所说的去做后获得反馈，然后说，“嗯，这对我有用。

It didn't work for me." Reread them again, find mentors, et cetera.

这对我不起作用。”再次重读它们，寻找导师，等等。

It's a long process and I don't think people have that mental model around how to learn in general, but also specifically how to learn the PM skills.

这是一个漫长的过程，我认为人们没有关于如何学习的思维模型，也没有关于如何学习 PM 技能的具体思维模型。

Lenny: And I imagine there's also this one step forward, two step back experience that often happens, too, where you're just like, "Oh, I thought I figured out how to think about strategy, and this one failed." And you're like, "Oh, that was useless." No, this is how you learn.

莱尼：我想，这种向前迈出一步，后退两步的经历也经常发生，你会想，“哦，我以为我已经弄清楚了如何思考战略，但这次失败了。”你会说，“哦，那没用。”不，这就是你学习的方式。

You fail sometimes.

你有时会失败。

Oftentimes, it works out slowly but surely you move forward.

通常情况下，事情进展缓慢，但你肯定会前进。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Since we've gone a little long, I'm going to keep it just four questions.

由于我们讨论的时间有点长，所以我只提出四个问题。

I'm just going to go through them pretty fast, whatever comes to mind.

无论想到什么，我都会很快地浏览它们。

Fire off.

关火。

You ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jules Walter: One of them is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.

Jules Walter：其中之一是 Chris Voss 的《Never Split the Difference》。

It's about negotiations.

这是关于谈判的。

There's actually also a masterclass on it.

实际上还有一个大师班。

Lenny: I was just going to say that.

莱尼：我正想说这个。

I watched that.

我看了那个。

That was really good.

那真是太好了。

Jules Walter: Yeah.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And then another one is Connect by Carole Robin.

另一款是Carole Robin 的《Connect》。

It's inspired by Stanford's Touchy-Feely class, if you've ever heard of it.

如果您听说过的话，它的灵感来自斯坦福大学的 Touchy-Feely 课程。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

She did a guest post for the newsletter, actually.

事实上，她为时事通讯做了一篇客座文章。

Jules Walter: Oh, really?

朱尔斯·沃尔特：哦，真的吗？

Awesome.

惊人的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's really a helpful especially as you are thinking about the EQ skills and how to improve your relationships with people.

这确实很有帮助，尤其是当您正在考虑情商技巧以及如何改善与人的关系时。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I highly recommend that book.

我强烈推荐那本书。

I haven't read it, but I read a lot of things about the class and my friends have been in that class and she wrote this guest post.

我还没读过，但我读了很多关于这门课的东西，我的朋友也上过那门课，她写了这篇客座文章。

That sounds like a really good pick for EQ, so I'm actually going to re-pick it up.

这听起来是一个非常好的 EQ 选择，所以我实际上要重新选择它。

Next question: favorite other podcast that isn't this podcast.

下一个问题：最喜欢除此播客之外的其他播客。

Jules Walter: Lex Fridman is one I'll call out.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：莱克斯·弗里德曼是我要特别提到的一位。

Brings really interesting speakers and also on diverse topics, so I find it really helpful.

带来了非常有趣的演讲者，而且主题也多种多样，所以我发现它真的很有帮助。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I also love that podcast.

我也喜欢那个播客。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Jules Walter: I watch fewer now.

朱尔斯·沃尔特：我现在看的次数少了。

Top Gun: Maverick is a movie I really like.

《壮志凌云：特立独行》是我非常喜欢的一部电影。

I'm sure many people have seen it.

相信很多人都看过。

For me, it's like just going back in the 80s.

对我来说，这就像回到了 80 年代。

And then TV show is Never Have I Ever.

然后电视节目是我从来没有过。

It's coming of age in America, Indian teenager.

印度青少年在美国已经成年了。

Pretty funny and also deep.

很有趣，也很深刻。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I haven't heard of that one.

我没听说过那个。

We'll check it out.

我们会检查一下。

Final question: favorite interview question that you like to ask folks when you're interviewing them?

最后一个问题：当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？

Jules Walter: One I used to ask a lot is: what's something work related that you're trying to get better at?

Jules Walter：我经常问的一个问题是：你想在哪些与工作相关的方面做得更好？

Sometimes I change the wording of it, but a big part of it is trying to understand how self-aware people are, to which extent they have a growth mindset, and then also how honest and vulnerable they can be.

有时我会改变它的措辞，但很大一部分是试图了解人们的自我意识如何，他们在多大程度上具有成长心态，以及他们有多诚实和脆弱。

What I will say, though, about interview question, by the way, is I don't anchor a lot on the first question.

不过，顺便说一句，关于面试问题，我要说的是，我对第一个问题并没有太多关注。

What I find the most value from are the follow-ups.

我发现最有价值的是后续行动。

Once you ask that question, you can take in various directions like, "Why did you focus on this versus other things?

一旦你问了这个问题，你就可以从不同的方向思考，比如“你为什么关注这个而不是其他事情？

How did this come to your attention?

您是如何注意到这一点的？

Was it feedback you sought or feedback people gave you, et cetera?" Yeah.

是你寻求的反馈还是人们给你的反馈，等等？”是的。

Lenny: Awesome advice.

莱尼：很棒的建议。

Jules, this interview was a longtime coming.

朱尔斯，这次采访是很久以前的事了。

It was everything I hoped it would be and more.

这就是我所希望的一切，甚至更多。

Thank you again so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions: where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题：如果人们想接触并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Jules Walter: In terms of finding me, Twitter is one place to start.

Jules Walter：就找到我而言，Twitter 是一个起点。

My handle is @julesdwalt.

我的昵称是@julesdwalt。

And then in terms of how people can be useful, it's really about paying it forward and then sharing this with others, especially parts that people find useful.

然后就人们如何发挥作用而言，实际上就是将其转发出去，然后与他人分享，尤其是人们认为有用的部分。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Jules, thank you so much.

朱尔斯，非常感谢你。

We'll chat again soon.

我们很快就会再次聊天。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。