'Competing with giants: An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product | Josh Miller (CEO)'

Josh Miller: We want people that show up to our company with some fire in their belly, something that they are out to do.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：我们希望人们来到我们公司时内心充满热情，这是他们想做的事情。

And for each person it's a little bit different.

对于每个人来说，情况都有点不同。

For some people it may be UI Craft details.

对于某些人来说，可能是 UI Craft 细节。

For other people, it may be achieving double the performance with a quarter of the engineering headcount.

对于其他人来说，四分之一的工程人员可能会实现双倍的性能。

Everyone has something, but they show up with this heartfelt intensity.

每个人都有一些东西，但他们表现出这种发自内心的强度。

And I think even relative to everything else, I'm going to say, that's it.

我认为即使相对于其他一切，我也会说，就是这样。

If you have a team that has heartfelt intensity and is there for a purpose and something to prove, you get it.

如果你有一支由衷的热情、有目标、有需要证明的团队，那么你就明白了。

You give them a very exciting, ambitious product and get out of their way and they will do remarkable work.

你给他们一个非常令人兴奋、雄心勃勃的产品，如果不妨碍他们，他们就会做出出色的工作。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Josh Miller.

今天我的嘉宾是乔什·米勒。

Josh is the CEO and co-founder of a company called The Browser Company, which makes a product called Arc, which has quickly become my default web browser.

Josh 是一家名为 The Browser Company 的公司的首席执行官兼联合创始人，该公司生产了一款名为 Arc 的产品，它很快就成为我的默认网络浏览器。

I fell in love with this product as soon as I started using it and wanted to get a glimpse into how Josh and his team approached the craft of product.

我一开始使用这个产品就爱上了它，并想了解一下 Josh 和他的团队如何处理产品工艺。

There's this cohort of companies like the Browser Company, , a few others that are just laser focused on building the best possible user experience, almost above all else.

有像浏览器公司这样的公司，以及其他一些公司，他们专注于构建最佳的用户体验，几乎高于一切。

And I wanted to spend some time exploring this trend with Josh.

我想花一些时间和乔什一起探索这一趋势。

We cover how he thinks about prioritization, team building, storytelling, company values, metrics, shipping, building in public so much more.

我们介绍了他如何看待优先级、团队建设、讲故事、公司价值观、指标、运输、公共建设等等。

Lenny: Josh is such an earnest, genuine and humble human, and it was such a pleasure getting to learn from him.

莱尼：乔希是一个非常认真、真诚和谦虚的人，很高兴向他学习。

And, just to be clear, I'm not an investor in the Browser Company and I barely knew anything about the company before I chatted with Josh.

而且，需要澄清的是，我不是浏览器公司的投资者，在与乔什聊天之前我对这家公司几乎一无所知。

So, I'm just a fan.

所以，我只是一个粉丝。

And as a special surprise, Arc is normally invite only.

令人特别惊喜的是，Arc 通常仅限受邀者参加。

But if you're listening to this now, check the show notes for a special link that'll get you right in to use the browser, if you want to play with it yourself.

但如果您现在正在收听此节目，请查看节目说明中的特殊链接，如果您想自己使用浏览器，可以直接使用该链接。

With that, I bring you Josh Miller after a short word from our select sponsors.

在我们选定的赞助商简短介绍之后，我为您带来了乔什·米勒 (Josh Miller)。

Speaker 3: This episode is brought to you by Rytr.

演讲者 3：本集由 Rytr 为您带来。

How much hype have you been hearing about generative AI?

您听说过多少关于生成式人工智能的炒作？

So much, but how do you take it from a shiny toy to an actual business tool that helps you do your actual job?

说了这么多，但是如何将它从一个闪亮的玩具变成一个可以帮助您完成实际工作的实际业务工具呢？

Rytr is an enterprise-grade generative AI platform built specifically for the needs of businesses, and already widely deployed at world-class brands like Uber, Spotify, HubSpot and UiPath.

Rytr是专门针对企业需求而构建的企业级生成式人工智能平台，已广泛部署在Uber、Spotify、HubSpot和UiPath等世界级品牌中。

With Rytr, you can break through content bottlenecks across your organization from marketing webpages to sales emails, in-product messages to creating high-quality on-brand content at scale.

借助 Rytr，您可以突破整个组织的内容瓶颈，从营销网页到销售电子邮件、产品内消息，再到大规模创建高质量的品牌内容。

And unlike other AI applications, Rytr's training happens securely on your data and your style and brand guidelines.

与其他人工智能应用程序不同，Rytr 的训练安全地根据您的数据以及您的风格和品牌指南进行。

So you provide specific to your organization.

因此，您提供特定于您的组织的信息。

Speaker 3: The result is that you get consistent content in your brand voice at scale.

发言者 3：结果是您可以大规模地获得一致的品牌声音内容。

Get AI that your people will love.

获得您的人民会喜欢的人工智能。

For a limited time.

在有限的时间内。

Listeners to Lenny's podcast can get 20% off if they go to rytr.com/lenny.

Lenny 播客的听众如果访问 rytr.com/lenny 即可享受 20% 的折扣。

That's rytr.com/lenny.

那是 rytr.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights platform for teams, that gets you from data to insights fast, no matter the method.

本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是面向团队的客户洞察平台，无论采用何种方法，它都可以让您快速从数据获得洞察。

There's so much customer data to get through from user interviews to NPS, sales calls, usability tests, support tickets, app reviews.

从用户访谈到 NPS、销售电话、可用性测试、支持票证、应用程序评论，需要获取大量客户数据。

It's a lot.

很多。

And you know that if you're building something hidden in that data are the insights that will lead you to building better products.

而且您知道，如果您正在构建隐藏在数据中的东西，那么这些见解将引导您​​构建更好的产品。

Speaker 3: And that's where Dovetail can help.

发言者 3：这就是 Dovetail 可以提供帮助的地方。

Dovetail allows you to quickly analyze customer data from any source and transform it into evidence-based insights that your whole team can access.

Dovetail 允许您快速分析任何来源的客户数据，并将其转化为整个团队都可以访问的基于证据的见解。

If you're a product manager who needs insights to motivate your team, a designer validating your next big feature, or a researcher who needs to analyze fast, Dovetail is the collaborative insights platform your whole team can use.

如果您是需要洞察力来激励团队的产品经理、验证下一个重要功能的设计师，或者需要快速分析的研究人员，Dovetail 是整个团队都可以使用的协作洞察平台。

Go to dovetailapp.com/lenny to get started today for free.

立即前往 dovetailapp.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's dovetailapp.com/lenny.

那是 dovetailapp.com/lenny。

Josh Miller: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.

乔什·米勒：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

You are the CEO and co-founder of The Browser Company, which builds a product called Arc.

您是 The Browser Company 的首席执行官兼联合创始人，该公司开发了一款名为 Arc 的产品。

Can you just talk about what is The Browser Company?

您能简单谈谈什么是浏览器公司吗？

What is Arc?

什么是弧？

And then whatever you can share about just like the scale of Arc at this point.

然后无论你能分享什么，就像此时 Arc 的规模一样。

That'd be really interesting to hear.

听到这个真的很有趣。

Josh Miller: Sure.

乔什·米勒：当然。

I hope you don't mind me doing this.

我希望你不介意我这样做。

I'm curious, I hear that you may, may or may not use Arc?

我很好奇，我听说你可能会或可能不会使用 Arc？

How would you describe Arc to somebody?

你会如何向别人描述 Arc？

Lenny: The simple explanation is it's just the best web browser that I've used.

Lenny：简单的解释是，它是我用过的最好的网络浏览器。

So, to me it's a browser.

所以，对我来说它是一个浏览器。

I know that you have a bigger vision than that, but that's the way I see it as a layperson who hasn't seen the full vision.

我知道你有比这更大的愿景，但这就是我作为一个没有看到完整愿景的外行人的看法。

Josh Miller: Awesome.

乔什·米勒：太棒了。

I think we can go home now.

我想我们现在可以回家了。

That's great.

那太棒了。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Josh Miller: No. To be totally honest with you and your listeners, we have a really hard time describing Arc, which is something I'm not proud of.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：不。老实说，我们很难描述 Arc，对此我并不感到自豪。

But it is, objectively, a replacement for your default web browser.

但客观地说，它是默认网络浏览器的替代品。

And people who try it seem to really love it, and most people seem to have a hard time using the internet in the old way.

尝试过的人似乎真的很喜欢它，而且大多数人似乎很难以旧的方式使用互联网。

So, that may sound like I'm being coy, but we have work shopped many a one-liners and the words have escaped us so far.

所以，这听起来可能像是我在含糊其辞，但我们已经写了很多俏皮话，但到目前为止我们还没有想到这些话。

So, to be honest, it is on our to-do list to get sharper about that.

因此，说实话，我们的待办事项清单上就是要对此更加敏锐。

Josh Miller: And then in terms of our scale, since we have a lot of product managers listening, I'll give you the PM answer to that question, which is, we really focus on one key metric as it relates to tracking our growth or how we are doing.

乔希·米勒：然后就我们的规模而言，由于我们有很多产品经理在听，我会给你这个问题的 PM 答案，也就是说，我们真正关注一个关键指标，因为它与跟踪我们的增长或我们的表现有关。

We call it D5, D7.

我们称之为D5、D7。

A lot of other companies call it L5, L7.

很多其他公司称之为L5、L7。

But the human explanation for that is how many people turn to Arc at least five days a week?

但对此的人类解释是，有多少人每周至少有五天使用 Arc？

That is all we obsess over from a metrics perspective, because for us it captures retention, engagement, and growth in a single metric.

从指标的角度来看，这就是我们所关注的一切，因为对我们来说，它在单个指标中捕获了保留率、参与度和增长。

You can't game it.

你不能玩它。

Right?

正确的？

So from retention perspective, it's not just opening it accidentally once a week.

因此，从保留的角度来看，这不仅仅是每周意外打开一次。

You need to open a tab on a day in order to count as an active for a day.

您需要在某一天打开一个选项卡才能算作一天的活跃状态。

Josh Miller: But so it tracks retention.

乔什·米勒：但是它会追踪保留率。

It tracks engagement because five days a week is no joke.

它跟踪参与度，因为每周五天可不是闹着玩的。

There are very few apps or pieces of software you actively use five days a week.

您每周活跃使用五天的应用程序或软件很少。

And then, obviously, it tracks growth, because of we track the count.

然后，显然，它会跟踪增长，因为我们跟踪计数。

So that is what we track.

这就是我们所追踪的。

And then we also don't obsess over absolute numbers, because if we're successful, if you zoom out and out and out, any point in time will be inconsequential and small.

然后我们也不痴迷于绝对数字，因为如果我们成功了，如果你缩小再缩小，任何时间点都将变得无关紧要且渺小。

So, what we really look is growth rate week over week.

因此，我们真正关注的是每周的增长率。

So, relative to last week, what is our growth rate?

那么，相对于上周，我们的增长率是多少？

And for the past eight months or so, we've been growing over 10% every single week.

在过去八个月左右的时间里，我们每周的增长率都超过 10%。

So very, very thrilled with that.

对此非常非常兴奋。

Do not think that will continue If anyone is listening.

如果有人在听，不要认为这种情况会继续下去。

I would be shocked if we continue like that for another eight months.

如果我们继续这样八个月，我会感到震惊。

But, yeah.

但是，是的。

We obsess over how many humans use Arc five out of seven days a week.

我们痴迷于每周 7 天中有 5 天使用 Arc 的人数。

And we really want that number to grow as fast as possible every single week.

我们真的希望这个数字每周都尽可能快地增长。

Lenny: I love that we're already talking about metrics and retention.

Lenny：我喜欢我们已经在谈论指标和保留率。

This is off to a good start.

这是一个良好的开始。

Josh Miller: You got to know your audience.

乔什·米勒：你必须了解你的听众。

Lenny.

莱尼。

Lenny: We're going to talk about just how public you're about everything.

莱尼：我们要谈谈你对所有事情的公开程度。

But would you be for sharing your retention actual numbers?

但您愿意分享您的实际保留数字吗？

The D5 and D7 you just mentioned?

你刚才提到的D5和D7？

Josh Miller: Yes.

乔什·米勒：是的。

With the asterisk that I didn't prepare for that.

带有星号的是我没有为此做好准备。

So, Rebecca correct me on Twitter after this, if this is wrong.

因此，丽贝卡在此之后在 Twitter 上纠正我，如果这是错误的。

So once again, we don't look at DAU retention.

因此，我们再次强调，我们不考虑 DAU 留存率。

We don't look at weekly active-user retention.

我们不考虑每周的活跃用户保留率。

We really just look at D5 D7 retention.

我们实际上只关注 D5 D7 保留率。

Depending on the cohort, that's somewhere between low to mid-30s and low 40s.

根据人群的不同，这个年龄介于 30 多岁到 40 多岁之间。

So really, really fantastic.

真的，真的太棒了。

Again, not going to continue.

再次，不会继续。

If there is anyone on this call that is going to check this in a year, it will be lower I'm sure.

如果这次电话会议中有人要在一年内检查这一点，我确信它会更低。

But so far, we're really thrilled with it.

但到目前为止，我们对此感到非常兴奋。

Josh Miller: And most importantly, in the same way, we don't look at absolute gross growth number, we don't look at retention in this moment.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：最重要的是，以同样的方式，我们不考虑绝对的总增长数字，我们目前不考虑保留率。

We look at, is it improving cohort by cohort?

我们看看，它是否逐个队列地改善？

And so, what I think I am most proud of is that, if you go back a year, by all means our retention curve, we were really proud of it.

所以，我认为我最自豪的是，如果你回顾一年，无论如何我们的保留曲线，我们真的为此感到自豪。

And I think one of the best in our category of software.

我认为这是我们软件类别中最好的之一。

But, what I'm really proud of is, 12 months later we've been inching it up and up and up, despite getting further away from the earliest most passionate adopters.

但是，令我真正感到自豪的是，12 个月后，我们一直在不断进步，尽管与最早、最热情的采用者相去甚远。

So, our retention curve's going up and up a little bit, which is-

所以，我们的保留曲线不断上升，也就是说——

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

All right.

好的。

If you haven't shared that, that'd be cool to share on Twitter someday.

如果您还没有分享过，那么有一天在 Twitter 上分享会很酷。

I'm a retained user.

我是保留用户。

Josh Miller: I'm going to wait and you can share this clip.

乔什·米勒：我会等你，你可以分享这个剪辑。

We'll share this clip.

我们将分享这个剪辑。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Okay.

好的。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

We're just ready.

我们刚刚准备好。

We got the marketing strategy coming together.

我们制定了营销策略。

So, I told you this ahead of the chat, but the reason I wanted to have you on this podcast, even though, as folks may know, and as I've told you, I try to actually avoid founders and CEOs on this podcast to give other folks a platform who aren't often invited on podcasts.

所以，我在聊天之前告诉过你这一点，但我想让你加入这个播客的原因是，正如人们可能知道的那样，正如我告诉过你的那样，我实际上试图避免创始人和首席执行官出现在这个播客上，为其他人提供一个不经常被邀请参加播客的平台。

But the reason I wanted to have you on is, I just feel like Arc is a remarkable product.

但我想让你加入的原因是，我只是觉得 Arc 是一款了不起的产品。

It blew me away the first time I used it.

我第一次使用它时它让我震惊。

I don't know if you saw it, I tweeted as soon as I signed up?

不知道你看到没有，我一报名就发推文了？

I had to share how awesome it was.

我必须分享它是多么的棒。

I was like-

我当时就像——

Josh Miller: Of course I saw it.

乔什·米勒：我当然看到了。

It made my day.

这让我很开心。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

And, also as an outside observer, it just feels like you're building remarkable culture and team that's really unique.

而且，作为一个外部观察者，感觉就像你正在建立真正独特的卓越文化和团队。

And, so I just want to selfishly learn from how you think about product and team building and all the things that go into it.

而且，所以我只是想自私地学习一下你对产品和团队建设以及其中涉及的所有事情的看法。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Josh Miller: Thanks for saying that, Lenny.

乔什·米勒：谢谢你这么说，莱尼。

What a cool way to kick off an interview.

开始面试的方式真是太酷了。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

First question I have along those lines is, you mentioned at some point that your product building philosophy is a reaction to the traditional Silicon Valley way of building product.

我的第一个问题是，您在某个时候提到您的产品构建理念是对传统硅谷构建产品方式的反应。

I'm curious to hear what led you down that road?

我很好奇是什么让你走上了这条路？

Why did you feel like you had to react to it?

为什么你觉得你必须对此做出反应？

And then how would you just describe your product building philosophy at The Browser Company?

那么您会如何描述您在浏览器公司的产品构建理念呢？

Josh Miller: I'll share this caveat once and never again in this interview.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：我将在这次采访中分享一次这个警告，并且再也不会。

But I want anyone listening to know, I'm someone who doesn't believe there is a single right way to do things.

但我希望所有听的人都知道，我是一个不相信有唯一正确的做事方法的人。

So, what I'm sharing today is truly just what we have found works for us in this moment for what we are doing.

所以，我今天分享的确实是我们发现的对我们此时此刻正在做的事情有效的东西。

But, I remember when I was earlier in my career, I'd listen to podcasts like this and take it as dogma, because there are these people that had done it and I respected what they'd built.

但是，我记得当我职业生涯早期时，我会听这样的播客并将其视为教条，因为有些人已经做到了，我尊重他们所创造的东西。

So, if any of this sounds like "better than thou," it's not intended to.

因此，如果其中任何一个听起来像是“比你更好”，那并不是故意的。

This is just what we found works for us and what we care about.

这正是我们发现对我们有用和我们关心的东西。

.

。

Josh Miller: Okay.

乔什·米勒：好的。

So early in my career started a company also with Hursh, my current co-founder and CTO.

因此，在我职业生涯的早期，我还与我现任联合创始人兼首席技术官 Hursh 一起创办了一家公司。

We were fortunate enough to have that company acquired or acqui-hired by Facebook and spent a number of years working at Facebook.

我们很幸运，该公司被 Facebook 收购或收购，并在 Facebook 工作了几年。

And remarkable organization, probably the best executing I've ever seen at that period of time.

还有出色的组织，可能是我在那段时间见过的最好的执行力。

And, by the way, I'd never been a PM before, so I'm not complimenting myself, I was just learning for the first time.

顺便说一句，我以前从未担任过产品经理，所以我不是在称赞自己，我只是第一次学习。

But what struck me at Facebook in call it 2014, and I've seen through to this day, is Silicon Valley, at least the most modern version of Silicon Valley, has this obsession with graphs, and has this obsession with numbers and metrics.

但 Facebook 的 2014 年给我留下了深刻的印象，直到今天我仍然看到，硅谷，至少是最现代的硅谷，对图表、数字和指标如此痴迷。

Josh Miller: I mean, you saw me in the previous answer, I'm talking about D5, D7.

Josh Miller：我的意思是，你在之前的回答中看到了我，我说的是 D5、D7。

What's a D5, D7?

什么是D5、D7？

And, it is an incredibly effective way to achieve certain outcomes, to focus on numbers, because it's very quantitative, it's objective.

而且，这是实现某些结果、关注数字的极其有效的方法，因为它是非常定量的、客观的。

You can see the graph go up or go down, or stay flat depending on what you want.

您可以看到图表上升或下降，或保持平坦，具体取决于您想要的。

But what we've found is that optimizing for metrics leaves a lot on the table and it misses a lot.

但我们发现，针对指标的优化留下了很多空白，也错过了很多。

And so, what we do at The Browser Company is we talk about optimizing feelings.

因此，我们在浏览器公司所做的就是谈论优化感受。

How do we want to make someone feel on the other end of our software?

我们希望如何让人们感受到我们软件的另一端？

Do we want to make them feel joy?

我们想让他们感到快乐吗？

Do we want to make them feel fast?

我们想让他们感觉很快吗？

Do we want to make them feel organized?

我们想让他们感觉井井有条吗？

Do we want to make them feel focused?

我们想让他们感到专注吗？

What is it the feeling we are trying to evoke in whatever we're doing on a specific project, or a specific feature, or a specific piece of storytelling content?

我们在特定项目、特定功能或特定故事内容中所做的任何事情都试图唤起什么样的感觉？

Josh Miller: And I can imagine what's going through the heads of your listeners right now, which is probably a number of things.

乔什·米勒：我可以想象听众现在脑子里在想什么，这可能有很多事情。

But among others, that sounds really damn romantic.

但除此之外，这听起来真的很浪漫。

If they're like, "Okay.

如果他们说：“好吧。

You optimizing for feelings." But if you allow me, I would posit that actually this modern way of optimizing for numbers and graphs, especially for what we all do every day, which is make things and put in the world, is what's fairly odd.

你优化了感情。”但如果你允许的话，我认为实际上这种优化数字和图表的现代方式，特别是对于我们每天所做的事情，即制造东西并将其投入世界，是相当奇怪的。

Because, if you just to yourself daydream about, what are your favorite products or product companies and brands, while it may sound cliche for me, Nike.

因为，如果你只是自己做白日梦，你最喜欢的产品或产品公司和品牌是什么，虽然这对我来说可能听起来很陈词滥调，耐克。

Nike was one of the first companies that at a very deep level resonate with me as a child.

耐克是最早在我小时候产生深刻共鸣的公司之一。

Disney?

迪士尼？

Disney, same thing.

迪士尼，同样的事情。

Apple?

苹果？

Before I was a professional in an industry, these were the brands and the products that they made that really made me love something that was ostensibly a commercial product I could buy.

在我成为某个行业的专业人士之前，这些品牌及其制造的产品确实让我喜欢上了表面上我可以购买的商业产品。

Josh Miller: What do you think Walt Disney was optimizing for when he was crafting Disneyland?

乔什·米勒：你认为沃尔特·迪士尼在打造迪士尼乐园时优化了什么？

What do you think Phil Knight was thinking about when he made that first version of the Nike running shoe?

您认为菲尔·奈特（Phil Knight）在制作第一款耐克跑鞋时在想什么？

What do you think Steve Jobs was imagining and daydreaming about when thinking about the iPhone or the Macintosh?

当史蒂夫·乔布斯想到 iPhone 或 Macintosh 时，你认为他在想象和做白日梦吗？

By all means, numbers are a fantastic way to be honest with yourself about whether or not you are achieving what you aim to do.

无论如何，数字是一个很好的方式来诚实地告诉自己，你是否正在实现你的目标。

But at the moment of creation, at the stage as product people, wondering what should we do, and why, and how?

但在创作的那一刻，在作为产品人员的阶段，我们想知道我们应该做什么，为什么，以及如何做？

We think it's much more important for us to think about the human, the person at the other end, and how we really want to make them feel.

我们认为，更重要的是我们要考虑人类、另一端的人，以及我们真正想让他们感受到什么。

Josh Miller: I think one tangible example of that is when I was at Facebook, I joined in the midst of Snapchat's ascendancy.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：我认为一个明显的例子是我在 Facebook 时，我是在 Snapchat 崛起之际加入的。

And, there was a lot of feelings about how are we doing, should we be worried?

而且，对于我们的表现有很多感受，我们应该担心吗？

And the way that we would have that conversation would be, how many times per week do people share on Facebook?

我们进行这种对话的方式是，人们每周在 Facebook 上分享多少次？

Do they post something?

他们发布了一些东西吗？

We even had an acronym OBPS.

我们甚至还有一个缩写词 OBPS。

It's like seared into my memory.

它就像烙印在我的记忆里一样。

What is OBPS?

什么是OBPS？

And how is it trending over time?

随着时间的推移，它的趋势如何？

Well, I think we should have been asking, and what we at least would ask at The Browser Company and our way of product development is, "Do we think people feel closer to their friends and family?" Or something of that nature?

嗯，我认为我们应该问，而且我们至少在浏览器公司和我们的产品开发方式中会问的是，“我们认为人们与他们的朋友和家人感觉更亲近吗？”或者类似性质的东西？

Josh Miller: I think that's what Snapchat got so right.

乔什·米勒：我认为 Snapchat 的做法非常正确。

They weren't obsessing about something like, "How many people put an image into the composer and hit the plus button.

他们并不痴迷于“有多少人将图像输入作曲家并按下加号按钮。

And the number of times per week means success." They were thinking about something much more human and essential.

每周的次数就意味着成功。”他们正在思考一些更人性化、更本质的事情。

And so, that is what we've The Browser Company.

这就是我们的浏览器公司。

Don't optimize for metrics, don't optimize for graphs.

不要针对指标进行优化，不要针对图表进行优化。

Use that as a way to keep you honest, and use it as a tool in your toolkit.

以此作为保持诚实的一种方式，并将其用作你工具箱中的工具。

But fundamentally, none of us are here for that.

但从根本上来说，我们中没有人是为此而存在的。

We're there to make people feel something.

我们的存在是为了让人们感受到一些东西。

Lenny: As you pointed out, I think a lot of the people are listening are like, "I love that.

莱尼：正如你所指出的，我认为很多人在听的时候都会说，“我喜欢这个。

I wish I could do that.

我希望我能做到这一点。

I want to optimize for feelings, but then I got to drive the business forward.

我想优化情感，但随后我必须推动业务向前发展。

I got goals to hit.

我有目标要实现。

I want to keep people accountable." I'm curious how you operationalize this approach?

我想让人们承担责任。”我很好奇你如何实施这种方法？

How do you actually implement this idea?

您如何实际实施这个想法？

I imagine you still have goals and metrics and you guys, you talked about retention and things like that.

我想你们仍然有目标和指标，你们谈论了保留率之类的事情。

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Obviously it's difficult to do that in the abstract for another company, and it may not work for every company and every product.

显然，对于另一家公司来说，抽象地做到这一点是很困难的，而且它可能不适用于每个公司和每个产品。

But, for example, one of the reasons we found this to be so effective so far is, if you pick the right feeling, it typically tracks pretty closely with the metric you care about.

但是，例如，我们发现到目前为止如此有效的原因之一是，如果您选择正确的感觉，它通常会与您关心的指标非常接近。

So, for example, we don't have a growth team and we have no semblance of growth projects.

例如，我们没有增长团队，也没有类似的增长项目。

However, in many of the new features that we put out into the world, we want people to feel surprise or joy or an emotion like that.

然而，在我们向世界推出的许多新功能中，我们希望人们感到惊讶或喜悦或类似的情感。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

When people feel that way, they go, "Oh, my God, what was that?" And they start telling their friends and family about it, and they start dropping a screenshot in Slack, et cetera.

当人们有这种感觉时，他们会说：“哦，天哪，那是什么？”他们开始告诉他们的朋友和家人这件事，并开始在 Slack 等中发布屏幕截图。

So, there's one example on the consumer side.

消费者方面有一个例子。

I've never built traditional enterprise software selling to CIOs, et cetera.

我从未构建过向 CIO 等销售的传统企业软件。

But I can imagine maybe someone in the IT department of a large enterprise wants to feel smart, or wants to feel ahead of the curve or wants to feel secure and ease at what they're doing.

但我可以想象，也许大型企业 IT 部门的某个人想要感觉自己很聪明，或者想要感觉领先，或者想要对自己所做的事情感到安全和轻松。

Josh Miller: I think sometimes we just forget that whoever your buyer is, or whatever your business objective, at the end of the day we're a bunch of people in a bunch of rooms at the other side of these screens.

乔什·米勒：我认为有时我们只是忘记了无论您的买家是谁，或者无论您的业务目标是什么，归根结底，我们都是屏幕另一侧的一堆房间里的一群人。

And just thinking about that person, it could be a buyer, it could be a customer.

只要想想那个人，它可能是买家，也可能是客户。

But I think the truth is the answer to the question Lenny is, when I was earlier in my career, I was searching for the answers or the way to do things, the right, the wrong, the binary.

但我认为事实是莱尼问题的答案，当我在职业生涯的早期时，我一直在寻找答案或做事的方式，对的，错的，二元的。

I think anyone that's been doing this or anything for a while learns that it's all nuanced.

我想任何一个做过这件事或任何事情一段时间的人都会知道这一切都是微妙的。

It's a spectrum.

这是一个频谱。

It depends.

这取决于。

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

有时有效，有时无效。

Josh Miller: But I think the true answer, Lenny, is just optimizing for metrics so purely is deeply flawed in my opinion.

乔什·米勒：但我认为真正的答案，莱尼，只是针对指标进行优化，所以在我看来，纯粹是有严重缺陷的。

Optimizing for feelings so purely is flawed as well.

如此纯粹地针对感受进行优化也是有缺陷的。

And it depends on what you are doing, what the project is and a lot of other things.

这取决于你在做什么、项目是什么以及很多其他事情。

But I think the reason we come out so strongly is, I do think Silicon Valley has tended so far towards optimizing for graphs and metrics, that if we can reel it back in a little bit, at least as just one company, I think that will be good.

但我认为我们如此强烈的原因是，我确实认为硅谷迄今为止一直倾向于优化图表和指标，如果我们能稍微回顾一下，至少作为一家公司，我认为那会很好。

But the truth is, it's both.

但事实是，两者都是。

We need to use all the tools we can get, but I think hopefully that's one way that people can operationalize.

我们需要使用我们可以获得的所有工具，但我认为希望这是人们可以实施的一种方式。

Lenny: I'm curious, just to poke out a little bit, how you actually implement that?

Lenny：我很好奇，只是想了解一下，你实际上是如何实现这一点的？

So maybe as an example, you recently launched this Peek feature, where you mouse over, I think, a link and it opens up in a little browser that doesn't last.

举个例子，您最近启动了这个 Peek 功能，我认为您将鼠标悬停在一个链接上，它会在一个不会持续存在的小浏览器中打开。

Do you put together a little spec of some sort of, "We're trying to create surprise, and maybe here's a metric we think about it." What's actual day-to-day operational approach to a new feature, in terms of feelings versus metrics?

你是否整理了某种形式的小规格，“我们正在努力创造惊喜，也许这是我们考虑的一个指标。”就感受与指标而言，新功能的实际日常操作方法是什么？

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

The truth is I don't think we've operationalized it as formally as we should one day.

事实是，我认为我们并没有像有一天应该那样正式地实施它。

And we'll probably need to one day.

有一天我们可能需要这样做。

The lucky thing is we are a very tight group of individuals that have now worked together for a long time.

幸运的是，我们是一个非常紧密的团队，已经合作了很长时间。

So not so formal as there's a PRD at the top of it, we list out the emotions.

因此，不像顶部有 PRD 那样正式，我们列出了情绪。

It's much more, with that project, get Ben in a room and whoever else is working on it and say, "All right.

更重要的是，对于这个项目，让本和其他正在做这个项目的人进入一个房间，然后说：“好吧。

So here's what we're trying to do for people.

这就是我们正在努力为人们做的事情。

Here's the problem we're trying to solve or the way we fit in their day.

这是我们试图解决的问题或者我们适应他们的时代的方式。

And in that moment people want to feel very light and airy."

在那一刻，人们想要感觉非常轻松和通风。”

Josh Miller: So, for the Peek feature he's referencing the use cases.

乔什·米勒：所以，对于 Peek 功能，他引用了用例。

You're on Hacker News and you want to probably in pretty quick succession check out five to seven URLs.

您在访问《黑客新闻》时，可能希望快速连续查看五到七个 URL。

And you're not really sure which one you're going to spend time on, but you're going to open a bunch of stuff really quickly.

你并不确定你要花时间在哪一个上，但你会很快打开一堆东西。

And Peek allows you to effortlessly just peek into it, without leaving Hacker News and context switching to this whole new tab and going back and forth.

Peek 允许您轻松地查看它，而无需离开 Hacker News 和上下文切换到这个全新的选项卡并来回切换。

So in that scenario, the conversation was how do we make it feel really airy and effortless to just whoop, pop it up, pop it back down, lightness, airiness, speed, agility.

因此，在这种情况下，我们讨论的是如何让它感觉真正轻盈、轻松，只是呼喊、弹出、弹出、轻盈、轻盈、速度、敏捷。

So again, it's not that we have a, "What is the number one feeling and the number two feeling?" It is much more conversational at this stage, but I am actually really excited.

再说一次，我们并不是有“第一感觉和第二感觉是什么？”的问题。在这个阶段，对话要多得多，但我实际上非常兴奋。

Hopefully we got the privilege one day to have such a large team that we have to figure out a way to do it.

希望有一天我们有幸拥有如此庞大的团队，我们必须找到一种方法来做到这一点。

So, that's an example of how we think about it.

这就是我们如何看待这个问题的一个例子。

Lenny: It's a good segue to a question I wanted to touch on.

莱尼：这是我想谈的一个问题的一个很好的延续。

So, I asked Scott Belsky what I should ask you.

所以，我问斯科特·贝尔斯基我应该问你什么。

He's a big fan of yours.

他是你的忠实粉丝。

I don't know if he's an investor?

不知道他是不是投资人？

But he's just like, "I love Josh." And asked him, "What should I ask Josh?" And one of his questions was about, you guys ship very quickly.

但他只是说，“我爱乔希。”并问他：“我该问乔希什么？”他的问题之一是，你们发货得很快。

You're shipping meaningful features every Friday.

您每个星期五都会发布有意义的功能。

And you also close the loop really well with customers when they come ask for something.

当客户提出要求时，您也可以很好地与他们建立良好的联系。

You're like, "Hey, here.

你就像，“嘿，在这里。

We did it." What is it that you do, and what can people learn from the way you all operate that allows you to ship quickly?

我们做到了。”你们是做什么的？人们可以从你们的运作方式中学到什么，让你们能够快速发货？

Josh Miller: Well, first of all, thank you Scott, if you're listening.

乔什·米勒：嗯，首先谢谢你，斯科特，如果你在听的话。

It's somewhat of an awkward question admittedly, because it's like someone complimenting you about your product.

诚然，这是一个有点尴尬的问题，因为这就像有人称赞你的产品。

It's always impossible to really take and accept the compliment, because you see all the blemishes.

真正接受并接受赞美总是不可能的，因为你看到了所有的瑕疵。

Of course we see all these ways in which we don't ship fast enough and could be doing a better job listening and building with members.

当然，我们看到所有这些方面我们的交付速度不够快，我们可以做得更好，倾听会员的意见并与会员一起建设。

But, at risk of sounding a bit cliche, I really think we ship our values.

但是，虽然听起来有点陈词滥调，但我确实认为我们传达了我们的价值观。

So, we thought a lot about our values as a company.

因此，我们对公司的价值观进行了很多思考。

You can read about them online.

您可以在线阅读有关它们的信息。

And I think if you examine those values and then you look at your compliment or Scott's compliment, you can see one-to-one.

我认为，如果你检查这些价值观，然后看看你的赞美或斯科特的赞美，你可以看到一对一的。

So the first, and I really think the most important is, we hire people that show up with heartfelt intensity.

因此，第一，也是我认为最重要的一点是，我们雇用那些表现出真诚热情的人。

Josh Miller: And, a lot of companies I think obsess over craft details.

乔什·米勒：而且，我认为很多公司都痴迷于工艺细节。

They'll be a value like, "We obsess over the details." What we say is, we want people that show up to our company with some fire in their belly, something that they are out to do.

它们的价值观类似于“我们注重细节”。我们所说的是，我们希望人们来到我们公司时内心充满热情，这是他们想做的事情。

And for each person it's a little bit different.

对于每个人来说，情况都有点不同。

For some people it may be UI Craft details, for other people it may be achieving double the performance with a quarter of the engineering head count.

对于某些人来说，可能是 UI Craft 细节，对于其他人来说，可能是用四分之一的工程人员实现了双倍的性能。

Everyone has something, but they show up with this heartfelt intensity.

每个人都有一些东西，但他们表现出这种发自内心的强度。

And I think even relative to everything else, I'm going to say, that's it.

我认为即使相对于其他一切，我也会说，就是这样。

If you have a team that has heartfelt intensity and is there for a purpose and something to prove, you give them a very exciting, ambitious prompt and get out of their way and they will do remarkable work.

如果你有一支由衷的热情、有目标、有需要证明的团队，你给他们一个非常令人兴奋、雄心勃勃的提示，让他们别挡道，他们就会做出出色的工作。

So, showing up with heartfelt intensity.

因此，以衷心的强度出现。

Josh Miller: Our second value is assume you don't know.

乔什·米勒：我们的第二个价值观是假设你不知道。

Assume you don't know.

假设你不知道。

And the value "assume you don't know" is, even if you're a subject matter expert.

即使您是主题专家，“假设您不知道”的价值也是如此。

We have someone in our company that literally built the first version of Chrome and ran it for 16 years.

我们公司有人真正构建了 Chrome 的第一个版本并运行了 16 年。

But he more than anyone embodies this beginner's mind of, "I have no idea how this should work or what will happen." And the follow up to that value is, "So we got to get going." It's like dropping in a new city.

但他比任何人都更能体现这种初学者的心态，“我不知道这应该如何运作，也不知道会发生什么。”该值的后续内容是“所以我们必须开始”。就像来到一个新城市一样。

You just got to walk out the door of your Airbnb turn left and ...

你只需走出 Airbnb 的门左转，然后......

Maybe you'll turn right and then you'll hop on the subway, but you just got to get going and see what you find.

也许你会右转，然后跳上地铁，但你只需要出发，看看会发现什么。

And so, we have this attitude of, you're showing up with this heartfelt intensity.

所以，我们有这样的态度，你带着这种发自内心的热情出现。

But you start by saying, "I've no idea what I'm doing.

但你一开始就说：“我不知道自己在做什么。

I have no idea what's going to happen." So we've just got to get going.

我不知道会发生什么。”所以我们必须开始了。

And that biases in a default to action.

这会导致默认采取行动。

Josh Miller: We have another value of, start by asking, "What could be?", which is pushing ourselves to be as aspirational, ambitious as possible.

乔什·米勒：我们还有另一个价值观，首先要问“可能是什么？”，这促使我们尽可能有抱负、雄心勃勃。

So the Peek feature that you mentioned, we just didn't want to solve the problem of context switching.

所以你提到的Peek功能，我们只是不想解决上下文切换的问题。

We wanted to almost blur the line between native and web software, and make it feel like a sheet of paper.

我们想要模糊本机软件和网络软件之间的界限，让它感觉就像一张纸。

And really pushing ourselves to be as ambitious as we can be, which is the consequence of blowing back around and more deeply motivating the people working on it.

并真正推动自己尽可能雄心勃勃，这是回击并更深入地激励致力于此的人们的结果。

Josh Miller: So, I mean, I could keep going.

乔什·米勒：所以，我的意思是，我可以继续下去。

We have a value, "You're doing it for the crew when you got to swarm.

我们有一个价值观，“当你必须蜂拥而至时，你是在为船员做这件事。

When you got to swarm," and we have value of, "make them feel something." But I think what it all adds up to is, a team that has a lot of heart, has a lot of intrinsic motivation and a, "It's the first day of my career.

当你蜂拥而至时，”我们的价值在于，“让他们感受到一些东西。”但我认为这一切加起来就是一支充满爱心、充满内在动力的团队，并且“这是我职业生涯的第一天。

I wonder what's going to happen?" attitude.

我想知道会发生什么？”态度。

And I think all of those things add up to a culture which is, "Let's get something out there.

我认为所有这些事情加起来形成了一种文化，即“让我们拿出一些东西来。

Let's see what happens."

让我们看看会发生什么。”

Lenny: How did you come up with these?

莱尼：你是怎么想出这些的？

What was the process to come up with company values?

制定公司价值观的过程是怎样的？

Because I know a lot of companies are like, "We should come up with these." How do you do that?

因为我知道很多公司都会说，“我们应该想出这些。”你是怎么做到的？

Josh Miller: The secret is I hate corporate values.

乔什·米勒：秘密是我讨厌企业价值观。

I've never resonated with them.

我从来没有和他们产生共鸣。

And I'm fortunate, we're fortunate enough, to have a lot of really spectacular, experienced leaders in our corner.

我很幸运，我们很幸运，有很多非常出色、经验丰富的领导者在我们身边。

And I got hammered to the first year, two years on, "Josh, where are your values?

两年后，我在第一年就受到了打击，“乔什，你的价值观在哪里？

How can your team operate without values?" And I always experienced them on the other end as almost corporate propaganda, these cliche fortune cookie, Panda Express-like, "You should care about the detail." It didn't resonate with me.

如果没有价值观，你的团队如何运作？”我总是将它们的另一端体验为几乎是企业宣传，这些陈词滥调的幸运饼干，就像熊猫快递一样，“你应该关心细节。”它没有引起我的共鸣。

And the thing that clicked was maybe a year and a half, two years into working, I just kept hearing the same things from the team.

事情可能是在工作一年半、两年后，我不断从团队中听到同样的事情。

And I would do things like a year into someone joining, "How's it going?

我会在有人加入一年后做一些事情，“进展如何？

What's going well?

进展顺利吗？

What's not?" And I realized that there are some traits that define our team, extremely organically and naturally.

什么不是？”我意识到我们的团队有一些特征，非常有机和自然。

No one told people what our values were.

没有人告诉人们我们的价值观是什么。

Josh Miller: Again, because I was this naive, ignorant 31-year-old being like, "Values are a corporate, late-stage capitalism creation," and just very, very hardheaded.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：再说一次，因为我是个天真无知的 31 岁年轻人，“价值观是企业的、晚期资本主义的创造”，而且非常非常冷静。

And it was really special two years in, hearing from the team why they love The Browser Company, why they think we're doing ...

两年来，听到团队为什么喜欢浏览器公司，为什么他们认为我们正在做的事情，真的很特别……

Just the passion there.

只是那里的热情。

And then we challenged ourselves to what became a value.

然后我们挑战自己，让自己成为一种价值观。

Well, if something about the five one-liners on the corporate webpage feels off, start by asking what could be in dream a little bit.

好吧，如果公司网页上的五句话让你感觉不舒服，那就先问问自己的梦想是什么。

And what I realized was, all of the statements people would say about what they loved about The Browser Company, what they thought defined the way we work, they reminded me of how I like to take road trips.

我意识到，人们所说的所有关于他们喜欢浏览器公司的东西，他们认为定义我们工作方式的东西，都让我想起了我是多么喜欢公路旅行。

I'm a big traveler.

我是一个大旅行家。

I'm a big fan of dropping in somewhere new and just exploring.

我非常喜欢去新的地方探索。

And so we just had this "Aha!" Moment.

所以我们就听到了“啊哈！”的声音。片刻。

Let's, instead of having a corporate landing page with five value titles and subtitles, let's write a manual for how to take a road trip.

让我们不再有一个包含五个值标题和副标题的公司登陆页面，而是编写一本如何进行公路旅行的手册。

Josh Miller: So we wrote an essay called "Notes on Road Trips" that use this semi-biographical, but mostly fictional, story about a person and their father taking a road trip when they're a teenager, to tell the story of how we do things at The Browser Company.

乔什·米勒：所以我们写了一篇名为“公路旅行笔记”的文章，用半传记式但大部分是虚构的故事来讲述一个人和他们的父亲在青少年时期进行公路旅行的故事，来讲述我们在浏览器公司如何做事的故事。

And share these values, but in a way that hopefully won't feel so propagandary and feel a little more, you're reading an essay.

并分享这些价值观，但以一种希望不会感觉那么宣传和感觉更多的方式，你正在阅读一篇文章。

So I say that, again, not to say there's anything wrong with traditional values.

所以我再说一遍，并不是说传统价值观有什么问题。

I'm actually sure I'm going to get an earful for a lot of people that coach me and give me advice that I sounded too indignant on this podcast.

事实上，我确信我会听到很多指导我并给我建议的人，因为我在这个播客上听起来太愤怒了。

But I'm pretty proud of that story because it was a great example of assuming you don't know.

但我对这个故事感到非常自豪，因为它是假设你不知道的一个很好的例子。

We were sure that corporate values were not for us.

我们确信企业价值观不适合我们。

And then very organically without trying it turned out, "Wait!

然后非常有机地没有尝试就结果是，“等等！

They run through this company in a pretty profound way.

他们以一种非常深刻的方式贯穿着这家公司。

We should put some words around it, because it's happening whether or not we like it, or say it is or not."

我们应该用一些词来形容它，因为无论我们是否喜欢它，或者说它是与否，它都会发生。”

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I have the page here and it's quite beautiful.

我这里有这个页面，它非常漂亮。

And, pulling to it in the show notes just very briefly and tactically, did you just sit down and start writing this thing and then people gave you feedback?

而且，在节目笔记中非常简短和有策略地提到它，你是否只是坐下来开始写这个东西，然后人们给了你反馈？

How long did this process take?

这个过程花了多长时间？

Just for folks that maybe you want to go down this road?

只是为了那些也许你想走这条路的人？

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Warning downside of this process that it takes a lot longer than we thought it would, because we put so much heart into it.

警告这个过程的缺点是它花费的时间比我们想象的要长得多，因为我们投入了太多的心血。

So, what it started with was again, in my natural one-year, check-in type conversation, starting to notice these patterns.

所以，它的开始是，在我自然的一年的签到式谈话中，再次开始注意到这些模式。

And then we actually very comprehensively were like, "Okay.

然后我们实际上非常全面地说，“好吧。

Let's sit down and interview everyone at The Browser Company.

让我们坐下来采访浏览器公司的每个人。

But no survey.

但没有调查。

One by one, talking to people, asking questions.

一一与人交谈，提出问题。

And then we pulled out those words.

然后我们把这些话拿出来。

So, actually what's really cool about these values, if my memory serves me, I believe every single one, with the exception of maybe a word or two, was something that someone on our team said.

所以，实际上这些价值观真正酷的是，如果我没记错的话，我相信每一个价值观，除了一两个词之外，都是我们团队中某个人说的。

So we interviewed the entire team and then these are meant to be a mirror.

所以我们采访了整个团队，然后这些就成为了一面镜子。

The putting it in road trip essay form?

把它写成公路旅行论文的形式？

That took a long time.

那花了很长时间。

That that was a lot of ...

那是很多...

Yeah.

是的。

I don't recommend the way that we did that, but-

我不推荐我们这样做的方式，但是-

Lenny: Oh.

莱尼：哦。

That does not sound that long.

听起来没那么长。

Okay.

好的。

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Maybe this goes back to Scott's comment that maybe our bar to how quickly we should ship stuff including values is, it's like I don't know.

也许这可以追溯到斯科特的评论，也许我们应该以多快的速度交付包括价值观在内的东西的标准是，就像我不知道一样。

But, yeah.

但是，是的。

It felt like a long time.

感觉已经过去了很长一段时间。

And this was not just me.

这不仅仅是我。

Just for anyone listening, this was not CEO in a corner writing a missive.

对于所有听的人来说，这并不是首席执行官在角落里写信。

This was a team effort.

这是团队的努力。

There's a woman Abby on our team that did so much work on this project.

我们团队中有一位女性艾比在这个项目上做了很多工作。

The words themselves came from our team.

这些话本身来自我们的团队。

So, it has my name I think somewhere on that webpage, but by no means was this me writing this essay in a corner with the fireplace on, or anything like that.

所以，我想该网页上的某个地方有我的名字，但这绝不是我在壁炉开着的角落里写这篇文章的，或者类似的东西。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Awesome.

太棒了。

That was really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

As you also saw, I asked on Twitter what to ask you, and I got a ton of questions.

正如你也看到的，我在 Twitter 上问你要问什么，我收到了很多问题。

People have a lot of questions for how y'all do stuff.

人们对你们如何做事有很多疑问。

The most common question turned out was from Ched Khan who had the most likes of all the questions that people asked you.

最常见的问题来自 Ched Khan，他是人们问你的所有问题中点赞最多的。

And it was around hiring, that basically you've been able to convince some of the most amazing people in the world to join The Browser Company.

正是围绕着招聘，基本上你已经能够说服世界上一些最出色的人加入浏览器公司。

Like you just mentioned, you hired the guy that built Chrome, basically, to work on Arc now.

就像您刚才提到的，您基本上聘请了构建 Chrome 的人，现在负责 Arc 的工作。

What is it that you do that convinces amazing people to join?

你做了什么才能说服优秀的人加入？

Because everyone wants to learn from you and copy you, and do that themselves.

因为每个人都想向你学习、模仿你，并且自己也这么做。

Josh Miller: Thank you for that question and for all the legs.

乔什·米勒：谢谢你的提问和大家的支持。

I will admit, this is also a fairly awkward one to ask.

我承认，这也是一个相当尴尬的问题。

I actually just came from an interview with a candidate and they asked me a fairly similar question.

事实上，我刚刚面试完一位候选人，他们问了我一个非常相似的问题。

And I said, "You know what?

我说：“你知道吗？

You should go ask the people that work here.

你应该去问问在这里工作的人。

It's not me.

这不是我。

I don't know why they ultimately join." But what I will tell you is, the intentionality, which is another secret, sharing a lot of secrets.

我不知道他们为什么最终加入。”但我要告诉你的是，意向性，这是另一个秘密，分享很多秘密。

This one will probably get me in trouble.

这可能会给我带来麻烦。

I don't care about web browsers.

我不关心网络浏览器。

I've never cared about web browsers.

我从来不关心网络浏览器。

I never wanted to build a web browser.

我从来没有想过构建一个网络浏览器。

If you had told me a decade ago that I'd be working on a desktop first web browser at 32, "I'd say what in my career went horribly wrong?" The origin story of this company was Hursch, who I met when I was 20.

如果你十年前告诉我，我将在 32 岁时开发桌面优先的网络浏览器，“我会说我的职业生涯中出了什么严重的错误？”这家公司的起源故事是我 20 岁时认识的 Hursch。

We started a company together.

我们一起创办了一家公司。

Lots of mistakes, a lot of successes, a lot of growing pains and figured out who we are.

很多错误，很多成功，很多成长的烦恼，并弄清楚我们是谁。

And a decade later we were still friends, we went to each other's weddings.

十年后我们仍然是朋友，我们参加了彼此的婚礼。

Josh Miller: We'd worked in all these different industries and different-stage companies and we just realized, "You know what?

乔什·米勒：我们在所有这些不同的行业和不同阶段的公司工作过，我们刚刚意识到，“你知道吗？

There are a lot of ideas that get us really excited.

有很多想法让我们非常兴奋。

There are a lot of shapes and sizes." But as we were nostalgic for looking back on the decade prior, it was groups of people and moments in time with those people that were our best memories.

有很多形状和大小。”但当我们怀念十年前时，一群人以及与这些人在一起的时刻才是我们最美好的回忆。

And so, what Hursch and I decided, long before the company started was, we want to build a company, but we want to build a company where we feel like we can hire whoever we want.

因此，早在公司成立之前，赫希和我就决定，我们想要建立一家公司，但我们想要建立一家我们觉得可以雇用任何我们想要的人的公司。

And I don't mean whoever we want in terms of who would dare say no. But we want to work on something where the greatest minds in our industry and adjacent would want to work on that prompt in a hypothetical sense.

我的意思并不是说我们想要谁敢说不。但我们希望从事一些我们行业和邻近行业中最伟大的思想家希望在假设的意义上从事这一工作的事情。

And then build an organization, build a team where we can work in the way that, after a decade of trying on a bunch of hats and ways of doing things and metrics this and , we could do what was right for us.

然后建立一个组织，建立一个团队，我们可以以这样的方式工作，经过十年尝试各种帽子和做事方法以及衡量标准，我们可以做适合我们的事情。

Josh Miller: And so, where we went to with a new web browser, let alone a web browser as a new form of computing, which is our true aspiration, to build an internet here.

乔什·米勒：所以，我们带着一个新的网络浏览器去了那里，更不用说将网络浏览器作为一种新的计算形式了，这是我们真正的愿望，在这里建立一个互联网。

You can look up the internet computer YouTube video on our Browser Company YouTube page.

您可以在我们的浏览器公司 YouTube 页面上查找互联网计算机 YouTube 视频。

But our ambition's even higher than a web browser.

但我们的目标甚至比网络浏览器还要高。

The intention of that is, we just want to go hire our favorite people that we know and don't know and build a team that, we'll never get bored working with this crew, because of how incredible they are and how humble they are.

这样做的目的是，我们只是想雇佣我们最喜欢的人，我们认识和不认识的人，并建立一个团队，我们永远不会厌倦与这个团队一起工作，因为他们是多么令人难以置信，他们是多么谦虚。

And so, when you think about it like that, I as the CEO as notionally the head of product, I view our product as our team.

因此，当你这样思考时，我作为首席执行官，名义上是产品负责人，我将我们的产品视为我们的团队。

And I know a lot of companies say that.

我知道很多公司都这么说。

I actually think they probably all mean it.

我实际上认为他们可能都是这个意思。

I don't think anyone's being disingenuous, but we really meet it.

我不认为有人不诚实，但我们确实遇到了。

It is the genesis of this company.

这就是这家公司的起源。

Josh Miller: It is not a new web browser.

Josh Miller：这不是一个新的网络浏览器。

It is, let's build the dream team, our dream team.

就是，让我们建立梦之队，我们的梦之队。

And let's build a way of working that is really fun for us and really speaks to our values.

让我们建立一种对我们来说真正有趣并且真正体现我们价值观的工作方式。

And let's go find people that resonate with that.

让我们去寻找与此产生共鸣的人。

And that trickles down to everything we do, whether it's our policy about this or the way we do that.

这会渗透到我们所做的每一件事中，无论是我们对此的政策还是我们这样做的方式。

I'll give you one example.

我给你举一个例子。

Our goal of interviews is to convince people not to join The Browser Company.

我们采访的目的是说服人们不要加入浏览器公司。

If I have an interview with someone, I don't pitch them and say, "What do you want to ask me?

如果我接受某人的采访，我不会向他们推销并说：“你想问我什么？

Anything you want?

你想要什么吗？

I'll be super honest, most people shouldn't want to work here." So I think it all starts with us viewing our product as the company, as the team, not Arc itself.

我会非常诚实，大多数人不应该想在这里工作。”所以我认为这一切都始于我们将我们的产品视为公司、团队，而不是 Arc 本身。

And then, I think being self-aware, that that's how I think that's how we think.

然后，我认为要有自我意识，这就是我的想法，这就是我们的想法。

Josh Miller: But again, flying back things that I've heard, we have been fortunate.

乔什·米勒：但是，再一次，飞回我所听到的事情，我们很幸运。

We've hired a lot of really remarkable people, especially on paper and especially off.

我们聘请了很多非常出色的人才，尤其是在纸上，尤其是在实际工作中。

I mean, all around.

我的意思是，到处都是。

I'll just give a couple examples to share one thing that I've heard.

我只想举几个例子来分享我听到的一件事。

A few recent hires, we hired someone named Darren who, as I mentioned, he co-created the first prototype of Chrome and then ran it for 16 years.

在最近的一些招聘中，我们聘请了一个名叫 Darren 的人，正如我提到的，他与他人共同创建了 Chrome 的第一个原型，然后运行了 16 年。

I think hundreds if not thousands of people reported to him.

我认为有数百甚至数千人向他举报。

He joined the Browser Company as an IC.

他作为 IC 加入了浏览器公司。

We just hired a woman named Tara.

我们刚刚雇用了一位名叫塔拉的女士。

She was on the original Paper by 53 team, one of my most inspiring products at the beginning of my career.

她是 53 团队最初的 Paper 成员，这是我职业生涯初期最鼓舞人心的产品之一。

Most recently she was actually, I believe, Senior SVP of product at Vimeo and a senior director of engineering.

我相信，她最近实际上是 Vimeo 的产品高级副总裁和工程高级总监。

She joined our engineering team as an IC.

她作为 IC 加入我们的工程团队。

We just hired someone named Peter Vidani.

我们刚刚聘请了一个名叫彼得·维达尼（Peter Vidani）的人。

When I was 20 building consumer social software, he was the coolest, most impressive person.

当我 20 岁时开发消费者社交软件时，他是最酷、最令人印象深刻的人。

He was the first designer at Tumblr.

他是 Tumblr 的第一位设计师。

Ran the design team at Tumblr for seven years and the most recently was SVP of design at Slack.

在 Tumblr 领导设计团队七年，最近担任 Slack 设计高级副总裁。

Joined the team as an IC designer.

作为 IC 设计师加入团队。

Josh Miller: And though that sounds like I'm bragging, the thing that was really interesting and perplexing to us was, these are people that have made a lot of money, that have had really fancy titles, that have worked on transformative projects.

乔什·米勒：虽然这听起来像是我在吹牛，但对我们来说真正有趣和困惑的是，这些人赚了很多钱，拥有非常奇特的头衔，从事变革性项目。

Why are they joining this team?

他们为什么加入这个团队？

And I think something that people show up to The Browser Company with is, in addition to heartfelt intensity, this aspiration that their work at The Browser Company will come to define their careers.

我认为，人们向浏览器公司展示的东西，除了发自内心的热情之外，还有一种渴望，即他们在浏览器公司的工作将决定他们的职业生涯。

And that's coming from people that have done really remarkable things, by all accounts.

从各方面来看，这都来自那些做出过非凡成就的人。

And I think more than anything, we've realized that, in order for people like that to join and to show up with that, there are a number of things you have to promise and provide them, that make folks like that gravitate with the intention of doing their work of their career, ranging from an incredible and ambitious aspiration, really empowerment to act on the prompts that they're given on behalf of the team in the way that they see fit, and truly trusting and empowering them.

我认为最重要的是，我们已经意识到，为了让这样的人加入并表现出来，你必须向他们承诺并提供很多东西，让他们有志于从事自己的职业生涯，包括令人难以置信和雄心勃勃的抱负，真正授权他们按照他们认为合适的方式代表团队给出的提示采取行动，以及真正信任他们并赋予他们权力。

Josh Miller: A very kind culture.

乔什·米勒：一种非常友善的文化。

I think if you've been doing this for a decade plus, your intolerance for bullshit is very, very low.

我认为如果你已经这样做了十多年，你对废话的容忍度就会非常非常低。

And so, by no means do I think we're perfect.

因此，我认为我们绝不是完美的。

I don't think everyone shows up The Browser Company saying, "If I'm not on the equivalent of the early iPhone team, I'm going to be bummed." But I think generally speaking, Hursh and I, and everyone that was on the early team showed up with this aspiration of making The Browser Company the product.

我不认为每个人在浏览器公司出现时都会说：“如果我不是早期 iPhone 团队中的一员，我会感到沮丧。”但我认为总的来说，赫什和我，以及早期团队中的每个人都表现出了将浏览器公司打造成产品的愿望。

And I think that's carried forward to this tumbleweed of people saying, ".

我认为这会延续到人们所说的“风滚草”。

That's where I'm going to finally do the equivalent of building the iPhone." And we all know we probably won't, but there is that, "I want to give it one more shot.

这就是我最终要做的事情，就像制造 iPhone 一样。”我们都知道我们可能不会，但有一点是，“我想再试一次。

I want to go for it." And that just tumbleweeds, I think, at some point.

我想要努力。”我想，在某些时候，这只是风滚草。

Lenny: That tumbleweed is, I think a big part of it is, once you get amazing people, more amazing people want to join.

莱尼：我认为风滚草的很大一部分是，一旦你有了出色的人才，就会有更多出色的人想要加入。

So I think that's very much helpful.

所以我认为这非常有帮助。

Something else this resonates a lot with is, just the mission of a company is such a powerful tool for pulling people in, the best people.

与此引起很大共鸣的另一件事是，公司的使命就是吸引人才、吸引最优秀人才的强大工具。

I've seen that a lot with founders.

我在创始人身上看到过很多这样的情况。

If they have a meaningful mission, it's so much easier to hire, versus not.

如果他们有一个有意义的使命，那么雇用他们就比不雇用他们容易得多。

And clearly you're really good at sharing that vision and mission.

显然，您非常擅长分享这一愿景和使命。

And then you also have a really interesting mission and vision.

然后你还有一个非常有趣的使命和愿景。

I think there's also, you're just a charismatic founder and that helps a lot too.

我认为还有一点，你是一位有魅力的创始人，这也很有帮助。

And you're a great storyteller.

你是一个很棒的讲故事的人。

Josh Miller: Well, the other thing I want to add Lenny is, again putting myself in the listener, I imagine a lot of what I just said probably sounded a little bit ...

乔什·米勒：嗯，我想补充莱尼的另一件事是，再次将自己置于听众中，我想我刚才所说的很多内容可能听起来有点......

Could come off, if you don't know me and you don't, as a little bombastic or a little again romantic.

如果你不认识我，你也不认识我的话，可能会显得有点夸张或又有点浪漫。

Very tactically, I'll give you something that was just who we are, but I think has helped contribute to this tumbleweed.

从战术上讲，我会给你一些我们本来的东西，但我认为这有助于促成这种风滚草。

From the very first person we hired, we celebrated them publicly.

从我们雇用的第一个人开始，我们就公开庆祝他们。

The fact that they joined.

他们加入的事实。

And in a very heartfelt way, telling you about them as a person and what they did.

并且以一种非常真诚的方式，告诉你他们作为一个人以及他们做了什么。

Long before we had anyone that anyone would've heard of before working at The Browser Company, just because it was earnest, we were really proud.

早在我们拥有在浏览器公司工作之前任何人都会听说过的人之前，仅仅因为它是认真的，我们就感到非常自豪。

Again, if you think of our original mandate as building the companies, the product, when our first designer joins, we want to tell everyone about it.

再说一次，如果你认为我们最初的任务是建立公司、产品，那么当我们的第一位设计师加入时，我们想告诉每个人。

That's a product launch.

这就是产品发布会。

That is the product launch.

那就是产品发布会。

Josh Miller: And then, whenever we ship something, we go out of our way to celebrate the people that worked on it publicly.

乔什·米勒：然后，每当我们发布一些东西时，我们都会不遗余力地公开庆祝那些为它工作的人们。

I think there's a CEO-hero worship sometimes in Silicon Valley.

我认为硅谷有时存在对首席执行官英雄的崇拜。

I do very little at the company.

我在公司做的事情很少。

Or sorry.

或者抱歉。

I do very little as it relates to the thing people fall in love with Arc.

我做的很少，因为这与人们爱上 Arc 的事情有关。

I do a lot for The Browser Company, but I don't make Arc.

我为 The Browser Company 做了很多工作，但我不制作 Arc。

I didn't make Peek.

我没有做皮克。

And again, that's just who we are, which is, "Alexandre.

再说一遍，这就是我们，“亚历山大。

She killed me!

她杀了我！

Look at how cool this is!" because it's earnest and it's honest to who we are.

看看这多酷！”因为它是认真的，并且诚实地对待我们是谁。

And then I think it creates this reinforcing cycle of you're someone that's done something incredible, which is, "I'm going to be celebrated.

然后我认为它创造了一个强化循环，让你成为一个做了令人难以置信的事情的人，也就是说，“我将受到庆祝。

They truly want me here.

他们真的希望我在这里。

I'm going to be recognized for the work that I do.

我所做的工作将会得到认可。

Josh Miller: It's not going to just accrue to this like CEO figurehead who everyone thinks is some genius visionary.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：这不会像每个人都认为是天才梦想家的首席执行官傀儡那样产生。

And so again, by no means are we perfect.

再说一遍，我们绝不是完美的。

By no means do I think we get it right all the time.

我认为我们绝不总是正确的。

But, because it's such an authentic expression of who we are and what we were trying to do, I think we do little micro implementations like that, that ladder up to that principle I got so excited about but are as simple as someone tweets about some animation.

但是，因为它如此真实地表达了我们是谁以及我们想要做什么，我认为我们很少做这样的微观实现，这阶梯达到了我非常兴奋的原则，但就像有人在推特上谈论一些动画一样简单。

They're like, "Woo!

他们就像，“哇！

This was fun." Tag Sherry.

这很有趣。”标记雪莉。

Sherry made that, Sherry's incredible.

雪莉做到了，雪莉太不可思议了。

And you don't see that that much in Silicon Valley.

在硅谷你看不到那么多。

You see corporate blog posts and the CEOs more than anyone else.

您比其他任何人都更多地看到公司博客文章和首席执行官。

That's probably why you don't have CEOs on the podcast, because you don't want ...

这可能就是为什么你的播客上没有首席执行官，因为你不想......

You know this Lenny.

你认识这个莱尼。

That is why that's your policy.

这就是为什么这就是你们的政策。

You don't want to hear from the CEOs.

你不想听到首席执行官的声音。

They're not the ones building the product.

他们不是构建产品的人。

You want to hear from the people actually doing it.

您想听听实际做这件事的人的意见。

That's why I love this podcast.

这就是我喜欢这个播客的原因。

Lenny: That's right.

莱尼：没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I'd say just hearing everything you're saying, The Browser Company sounds like an incredible place to work.

我想说，光听你所说的一切，浏览器公司听起来就是一个令人难以置信的工作场所。

I could see why people want to go work.

我可以理解为什么人们想要去工作。

It's pretty simple.

这很简单。

You touched on being public and sharing everything that's going on.

你提到公开并分享正在发生的一切。

And that's another area I wanted to spend a little time on.

这是我想花一点时间的另一个领域。

You guys are very transparent about what's going on and inside the company.

你们对公司内部正在发生的事情非常透明。

You bring cameras into the board meetings.

您将摄像机带入董事会会议。

I watched a half-hour meeting you had with your head of design talking about a project that's behind scheduling.

我观看了您与设计主管举行的半小时会议，讨论了一个落后于日程安排的项目。

You're trying to figure out how do we get this out the door.

你正试图弄清楚我们如何才能把它推出去。

You just share actual things you all are doing within the company, publicly.

您只需公开分享大家在公司内所做的实际事情。

And I'm curious just, why did you start doing that?

我很好奇，你为什么开始这样做？

What have you seen as a good or bad that has come from that?

您认为由此带来的好处或坏处是什么？

Is there anything you've shared that maybe you regret like "Oh, maybe we shouldn't have put that out there." What's been your experience with that?

您是否分享过一些让您后悔的事情，比如“哦，也许我们不应该把它放在那里。”您对此有什么经验？

Josh Miller: Why don't I start with the regret.

乔什·米勒：我为什么不从遗憾开始呢？

It's not yet a regret, but the thing that I wonder ...

这还不是遗憾，但我想知道的是......

Because this is very much ...

因为这非常...

I may have hopefully spoken with a lot of earnest passion to some of the questions before.

我之前可能满怀热忱地回答了一些问题。

This is one that I would really characterize as a prototype.

这是我真正认为是原型的一个。

We really have a prototype-driven culture.

我们确实拥有原型驱动的文化。

And this is one that I'd put high on the list of, "Maybe we'll regret this later." And specifically what I hope is that, I'm uncomfortable putting myself too central in our story.

这是我最优先考虑的一个问题，“也许我们以后会后悔的。”具体来说，我希望的是，我不愿意将自己置于我们故事的中心位置。

But, naturally, when you're doing storytelling publicly, there's a gravitational pull for the CEO and the founders to be at the center of that.

但是，很自然地，当你公开讲故事时，首席执行官和创始人就会有一种引力成为故事的中心。

And so, sometimes even this morning, we had our best-performing YouTube video ever.

因此，有时即使在今天早上，我们也能看到有史以来表现最好的 YouTube 视频。

The first one that really broke out of people that already follow us.

第一个真正让已经关注我们的人脱颖而出。

And it's a reaction video in classic YouTube form to MKBHD talking about our product for the first time.

这是 MKBHD 首次谈论我们产品时采用经典 YouTube 形式的反应视频。

Josh Miller: And I honestly watched it right before this again, and I was like, "What the fuck am I doing?

乔什·米勒：老实说，我在这之前又看了一遍，我当时想，“我他妈在做什么？

What are we doing?

我们在做什么？

Why am I trying to become a YouTuber?" So, to be totally honest, I don't regret anything yet.

我为什么要尝试成为一名 YouTuber？”所以，说实话，我还不后悔任何事情。

But I wonder if we could take this too far?

但我想知道我们是否可以走得太远？

So if anyone's listening, if you see us starting to take this too far, especially as it relates to me, we want to hear about it, because that's keeping me up.

因此，如果有人在听，如果你看到我们开始走得太远，尤其是与我有关的事情，我们想听听，因为这让我坚持下去。

But I do think the intentions are pure and earnest, which are ...

但我确实认为其意图是纯粹而真诚的，这是......

And another thing that defines people that have joined The Browser Company, in addition to wanting to do the work that defines their careers, is I would characterize it as a little bit of hopelessness, maybe feeling jaded, questioning this industry that they've worked on or products that they've worked on and wanting to rediscover.

加入浏览器公司的人的另一件事是，除了想要从事定义其职业生涯的工作之外，我将其描述为有点绝望，也许感到厌倦，质疑他们所从事的这个行业或他们所从事的产品，并想要重新发现。

But, at the end of the day, we are a group of idealists, of optimists, wanting to rediscover what we fell in love with when we were kids, whether it's the part of our craft or the potential of technology, the internet and software.

但是，归根结底，我们是一群理想主义者、乐观主义者，想要重新发现我们小时候所热爱的东西，无论是我们手艺的一部分，还是技术、互联网和软件的潜力。

Josh Miller: And, as part of that, I would view Arc and the Browser Company as an experiment in we can do it.

Josh Miller：而且，作为其中的一部分，我将 Arc 和浏览器公司视为我们可以做到的实验。

Better is possible.

更好是可能的。

And as we were thinking about better as possible, rediscovering what we love and believe in deep down and trying to express it in the world, one of it related to trust.

当我们尽可能更好地思考时，重新发现我们内心深处热爱和相信的东西，并试图在世界上表达它，其中之一与信任有关。

I remember when I was a teenager using the internet for the first time and early on to college, just the hopefulness of what was possible, and the belief that these people building these tools, they were like heroes to me.

我记得当我十几岁的时候第一次使用互联网以及刚上大学时，我对一切可能的希望充满希望，并且相信这些人构建了这些工具，他们对我来说就像英雄一样。

Not just the leaders, but the teams, the companies, the brands.

不仅仅是领导者，还有团队、公司和品牌。

And somewhere along the way, I'm not blaming a single company, I'm not even saying that anyone did anything wrong, but culturally ...

一路走来，我并没有责怪任何一家公司，我什至没有说任何人做错了什么，但在文化上......

I was a sociology major.

我是社会学专业的。

Culturally, we have lost trust in tech companies and in tech brands.

从文化上来说，我们已经失去了对科技公司和科技品牌的信任。

Josh Miller: And so, building in public showing you our meetings, uncomfortably so, is an act in, "If we were them, why should they trust us?

乔什·米勒：因此，在公共建筑中向您展示我们的会议（令人不安）是一种行为，“如果我们是他们，他们为什么要相信我们？

Why should anyone trust us?" We have your most sensitive personal data.

为什么有人要相信我们？”我们拥有您最敏感的个人数据。

We have your most sensitive professional data.

我们拥有您最敏感的专业数据。

Why should you trust us if we've had our trust broken again and again?

如果我们的信任一次又一次被打破，你为什么还要相信我们呢？

And I think our hypothesis in this prototype, in this experiment is, we can have the best privacy policy in the world, but at the end of the day, again, it's just people behind the screen.

我认为我们在这个原型中的假设，在这个实验中，我们可以拥有世界上最好的隐私政策，但归根结底，这只是屏幕后面的人。

And so, even if I think about ...

所以，即使我想...

I haven't done interviews like this, because I worry that if you don't know me, I come off the wrong way.

我没有做过这样的采访，因为我担心如果你不认识我，我就会走错路。

Josh Miller: A lot of people tend to.

乔什·米勒：很多人都倾向于这样做。

I've noticed a lot of friends in my life that I know them behind the scenes, but the way that people perceive them publicly here don't know them.

我注意到生活中的很多朋友，我在幕后认识他们，但人们在这里公开看待他们的方式并不了解他们。

They interpret it the other way, because there's not that trust.

他们以另一种方式解释它，因为没有那种信任。

And so our bet is that if you get to know us, Nash, Dina, me Hursch, and you really feel like you get to know us as person and all of our imperfections, we're average looking, we're average to all that stuff.

所以我们打赌，如果你了解我们，纳什，迪娜，我赫希，你真的觉得你了解了我们这个人和我们所有的不完美，我们长得一般，我们在所有这些方面都很平均。

Then when you see that we're asking for a permission, you might trust it is because we want to make you feel a certain way that's better.

然后，当您看到我们请求许可时，您可能会相信这是因为我们想让您感觉某种方式更好。

And if not ...

如果没有...

I'll say someone tweeted something yesterday, who apparently we didn't earn the trust yet and they haven't gone to know us.

我想说昨天有人发了一些推文，显然我们还没有赢得信任，他们还没有去了解我们。

And their interpretation of what we were doing was the worst possible interpretation you could .

他们对我们正在做的事情的解释是你能想到的最糟糕的解释。

And, at first honestly, I felt a bit of anger, like, "Who was this person on a Thursday just saying we're doing X and Y?" And then I realized, "You know what?

而且，老实说，一开始我感到有点愤怒，就像，“这个星期四的人是谁，只是说我们正在做 X 和 Y？”然后我意识到，“你知道吗？

I'd have the same feeling because of the experiences I've had with technology in the past five to 10 years."

由于过去五到十年我在技术方面的经历，我也会有同样的感觉。”

Josh Miller: And so, the intention with these the building and public experiments are radical trust building.

乔什·米勒：因此，这些建设和公共实验的目的是彻底建立信任。

Not radical transparency, we can't share everything, but radical trust building.

不是彻底的透明度，我们无法分享一切，而是彻底的信任建立。

You get to know us as humans and I worry that we'll regret that, and that it could potentially turn into, "Oh, they're trying to be internet celebrities that they're so important, they should share everything because ...

当你了解我们作为人类时，我担心我们会后悔，并且它可能会变成，“哦，他们试图成为互联网名人，他们是如此重要，他们应该分享一切，因为......

Thank you, them, for gracing us with their opinions." It's not the intention and it feels worth taking that risk.

感谢他们向我们提供了他们的意见。”这不是本意，但感觉值得冒这个风险。

But that's the intentionality behind it.

但这就是其背后的意图。

Lenny: That is a really interesting insight.

莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的见解。

It makes a lot of sense for a browser to find that so important, to build that trust.

对于浏览器来说，发现这一点如此重要并建立这种信任是很有意义的。

Josh Miller: I haven't done podcast interviews, I haven't done this.

乔什·米勒：我没有做过播客采访，我没有做过这个。

I really like you.

我真的很喜欢你。

I really like the feeling of your conversations, the intentions behind them, the warmth, even your intro music is a friendly jig.

我真的很喜欢你谈话的感觉，谈话背后的意图，温暖，甚至你的开场音乐都是友好的吉格舞曲。

So, I mean, it's a great example, where I think it's one of the most wonderful things about the podcasting medium is I've had you in my ear for a year and the people on your show and you feel a sense of trust in you and your intentions here.

所以，我的意思是，这是一个很好的例子，我认为播客媒体最美妙的事情之一就是我已经在我耳边听了你一年了，你的节目中的人们，你对你和你的意图有一种信任感。

And your intentions both in this interview, in terms of what you're trying to do for listeners.

还有你在这次采访中的意图，即你想为听众做的事情。

To some extent your show, and the warmth that you bring to it and the perception I have as a human being ...

在某种程度上，你的表演，你给它带来的温暖，以及我作为一个人的看法......

We've never met.

我们从未见过面。

We've maybe DM'd briefly, maybe five messages exchanged.

我们可能简短地私信过，也许交换了五条消息。

But I feel like I know you and that makes me trust you.

但我觉得我认识你，这让我信任你。

And so, in many ways this podcast, at a meta level's an inspiration for it.

因此，从很多方面来说，这个播客在元层面上都是它的灵感来源。

Lenny: I feel the same way in reverse.

莱尼：反过来我也有同样的感觉。

You made this point about being worried about being two front and center for your company.

您提出这一点是因为担心成为公司的两个前沿和中心。

I have the same exact feeling.

我也有同样的感觉。

Even though my newsletter's called "Lenny's Newsletter," I only named it that because that was the default recommendation when I was signing up for Substack.

尽管我的时事通讯名为“Lenny's Newsletter”，但我只是这样命名，因为这是我注册 Substack 时的默认推荐。

I didn't want to be this, "I know it all.

我不想成为这样的人：“我什么都知道。

Come to me.

到我这里来。

Welcome to my know-it-all place." I really dislike that.

欢迎来到我无所不知的地方。”我真的不喜欢那样。

And that's why I created this community that lives along the side, where people can help each other, because I'm not going to have all answers.

这就是为什么我创建了这个社区，人们可以互相帮助，因为我不会得到所有的答案。

And so, I've had to lead into that.

所以，我必须引导这一点。

"All right, people." They want a person to help them understand what's going on, learn about ...

“好吧，各位。”他们希望有人帮助他们了解正在发生的事情，了解......

And in your videos you do a great job highlighting other people.

在您的视频中，您出色地突出了其他人。

I was watching your board meeting video and it's like, "Here's all team members coming along.

我正在观看你们的董事会会议视频，就像是，“所有团队成员都来了。

Here they come.

他们来了。

How are you doing?" So, anyway.

你怎么样？”所以，无论如何。

All that to say, you're doing a great job finding the balance.

综上所述，您在找到平衡方面做得很好。

Lenny: I appreciate it.

莱尼：我很感激。

You talked about storytelling, and you mentioned that you have a whole bunch of odd teams at The Browser Company.

您谈到了讲故事，还提到浏览器公司有一大群奇怪的团队。

One of them is a storytelling team.

其中之一是一个讲故事的团队。

And that actually explains, I think, how you're so good at making these really amazing videos, because making great videos is hard.

我认为这实际上解释了你为何如此擅长制作这些令人惊叹的视频，因为制作精彩的视频很困难。

Can you just talk about some of these odd teams that you have, that probably other companies don't?

您能谈谈您拥有的一些其他公司可能没有的奇怪团队吗？

Josh Miller: One of the other things that, hopefully, you're picking up in this interview, so far, is we are a very prototype-driven culture.

乔什·米勒：到目前为止，希望您在这次采访中了解到的另一件事是，我们是一种非常原型驱动的文化。

It goes back to the "assume you don't know" ethos.

它可以追溯到“假设你不知道”的精神。

We try a lot of experiments, and we try them related to product features related to how we work together, related to the stories we tell.

我们尝试了很多实验，我们尝试与产品功能相关的实验，与我们如何合作、与我们讲述的故事相关的实验。

So, this isn't a category of, "I'm not sure it's going to work, but we're trying it," and it seems to be working so far, at least for us.

所以，这不是“我不确定它会起作用，但我们正在尝试”的类别，而且到目前为止它似乎有效，至少对我们来说是这样。

What Lenny's referencing is, we have a handful of teams.

莱尼提到的是，我们有几个团队。

I'll pick two just as an examples.

我将选择两个作为例子。

We have a membership team and we have a storytelling team.

我们有一个会员团队，我们有一个讲故事的团队。

And though you probably recognize or are obviously familiar with those terms, those aren't historically startup orgs, or startup disciplines and teams.

尽管您可能认识或显然熟悉这些术语，但这些术语并不是历史上的初创组织，也不是初创学科和团队。

And let me tell you about the intention behind both.

让我告诉你两者背后的意图。

Josh Miller: Membership.

乔什·米勒：会员资格。

Membership was, when I was at Facebook, the most impressive thing to me about how Facebook built product was their user research team.

当我在 Facebook 工作时，关于 Facebook 如何构建产品，最让我印象深刻的是他们的用户研究团队。

Shout out to Lowie and Jane.

向洛伊和简大声喊叫。

I don't know why you'd be listening to this podcast, but you deeply inspired me when we were at Facebook together.

我不知道你为什么会听这个播客，但当我们一起在 Facebook 时，你深深地启发了我。

They had the most incredible team of user researchers.

他们拥有最令人难以置信的用户研究团队。

And it always felt odd to me.

我总觉得很奇怪。

And this isn't Lowie and Jane's fault.

这不是洛伊和简的错。

Actually, in fact, they suffered from this.

事实上，事实上，他们也曾遭受过这样的痛苦。

That user research almost felt like a service organization, relative to product engineering design.

相对于产品工程设计，用户研究几乎感觉像是一个服务组织。

There'd be a PM.

会有一个 PM。

The PM would get assigned a researcher and the PM got to decide how to use the researcher, and ask them what to do and ask them questions.

PM 将被指派一名研究员，PM 必须决定如何使用该研究员，并询问他们该做什么并向他们提出问题。

But seeing the potential for when you really get to know the people that you are building for, that you're serving, at a really deep way, it is extraordinary.

但是，当你真正深入地了解你正在为之建设、你正在服务的人们时，你就会看到其中的潜力，这是非同寻常的。

How do you build product any other way?

您如何以其他方式构建产品？

Josh Miller: And so, we took that to the extreme at The Browser Company, which we said, "Let's not think of it as customer support, customer service, customer success, user research.

乔什·米勒：因此，我们在浏览器公司将这一点发挥到了极致，我们说：“我们不要将其视为客户支持、客户服务、客户成功、用户研究。

Those are just business terms.

这些只是商业术语。

Those are just industry terms." At the end of the day, what we're saying is if there is a human being, from the moment they touch our software or our products for the first time, to, if they have it last, we need to have a deep, genuine, ongoing relationship with them.

这些只是行业术语。”归根结底，我们要说的是，如果有人，从他们第一次接触我们的软件或产品的那一刻起，到他们最后一次接触我们的软件或产品，我们需要与他们建立深厚、真诚、持续的关系。

Josh Miller: And on day one, that may be air quote, "customer success." "How do I use this thing?" On day 37, that might be, "I have a bug.

乔什·米勒：第一天，这可能是一句空话，“客户成功”。 “我要怎么使用这个东西？”在第 37 天，这可能是，“我有一个错误。

Do you mind helping me fix it?" And on day 58, that may be, "Hey, we're shipping the mobile app soon.

你介意帮我解决一下吗？”在第 58 天，这可能是，“嘿，我们很快就会发布移动应用程序。

What do you want from mobile?

您想从手机获得什么？

What do you want on your phone?" Other companies view that as different orgs and disciplines.

你想用手机做什么？”其他公司则认为这是不同的组织和学科。

We view that as, there are a bunch of people at the other end of this that we are serving from the moment they touch our product the first time.

我们认为，从他们第一次接触我们的产品的那一刻起，我们就在为另一端的一群人提供服务。

Let's own that relationship full stack and think about it holistically.

让我们全面了解这种关系并全面思考它。

And so that's the membership team.

这就是会员团队。

Josh Miller: On the storytelling side, very similar, different type of person.

乔什·米勒：在讲故事方面，非常相似，但类型不同。

Again, we're a humanistic the company.

再次强调，我们是一家以人为本的公司。

So, the theme here is the people on the company, the people at the other end.

所以，这里的主题是公司里的人，另一端的人。

So if the membership team takes people from the moment they touch our product for the first time to the last, the storytelling team is about people we don't have the privilege of serving yet.

因此，如果说会员团队从人们第一次接触我们的产品到最后一次接触我们的产品，那么讲故事的团队就是为那些我们还没有特权服务的人服务的。

They don't use Arc, they don't know what Arc is.

他们不使用Arc，他们不知道Arc 是什么。

That could be an investor, air quote, "investor relations." That could be members of the press, air quote, "PR." That could be just people out in the world, air quote, "marketing" and one-day sales.

这可能是投资者、航空报价、“投资者关系”。这可能是媒体成员，空中引用，“公关”。这可能只是世界各地的人们、空中报价、“营销”和一日销售。

But at the end of the day, it's telling our story to people.

但归根结底，它是向人们讲述我们的故事。

It's telling our story to people and thinking about that holistically in full stack.

它向人们讲述我们的故事，并全面思考这个故事。

Josh Miller: So that's how we think about teams is, we start with first principles asking, what are we really trying to do here?

乔什·米勒：这就是我们对团队的看法，我们从首要原则开始问，我们真正想在这里做什么？

And what is the most direct way to manifest that, even if it's not how other people do it?

即使其他人不这样做，最直接的体现方式是什么？

In practice, one of the benefits of that is I do think it leads to certain pieces of content.

在实践中，这样做的好处之一是我确实认为它会带来某些内容。

For example, that people go, "Oh, wow!

例如，人们会说：“哦，哇！

I've never seen that before." But again, I think anyone's capable of this.

我以前从未见过这种情况。”但话又说回来，我认为任何人都有能力做到这一点。

I think we have an extraordinarily talented storytelling team and membership team, but I really think it's as simple as the intentionality of what is the team?

我认为我们有一个非常有才华的讲故事团队和会员团队，但我真的认为这就像团队的意图一样简单？

What are their incentives?

他们的动机是什么？

What are the disciplines on the team?

团队的纪律是什么？

Even hiring a video editor, for example, as a small company.

例如，作为一家小公司，甚至雇用一名视频编辑器。

But the video editor, not having make a TikTok account go viral.

但视频编辑并没有让 TikTok 账户走红。

But think about it more holistically in terms of the people.

但要从人的角度更全面地思考这个问题。

Josh Miller: So, again, there's a lot that breaks down.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：所以，再说一遍，有很多东西都出问题了。

There's a lot that's not going well about it.

有很多事情进展不顺利。

I have no idea how the scales, the 500 people ...

我不知道500人的规模如何......

Yeah.

是的。

So this is not me saying this experiment is ultimately going to be a huge success, or right for everyone or even us at different times.

所以我并不是说这个实验最终会取得巨大成功，或者适合每个人，甚至适合不同时期的我们。

But that was the intentionality of the membership team, the storytelling team and others.

但这是会员团队、讲故事团队和其他人的意图。

And even product management.

甚至产品管理。

We don't have PMs at the company.

我们公司没有 PM。

My title at Facebook was Product Manager.

我在 Facebook 的职位是产品经理。

I love product management.

我喜欢产品管理。

But, we view it not as a team.

但是，我们不将其视为一个团队。

We view it as a leader, a role on a project, on an effort.

我们将其视为领导者、项目中的角色、努力中的角色。

Josh Miller: And depending on the projects, different types of people should be a PM.

Josh Miller：根据项目的不同，不同类型的人应该担任 PM。

So, we have a performance-related project going on where, of course, an infrastructure engineer should be that air quote, "PM." We have a product project, where actually I think someone from membership should be the PM, because ultimately, yes, we're building software product, but it is really about serving our members in a specific way, so we should have someone for membership be a PM.

因此，我们正在进行一个与性能相关的项目，当然，基础设施工程师应该是空中引用的“PM”。我们有一个产品项目，实际上我认为应该由会员中的某个人担任 PM，因为最终，是的，我们正在构建软件产品，但它实际上是为了以特定的方式为我们的会员提供服务，所以我们应该让会员中的某个人担任 PM。

Again, as you can imagine, as is going through the heads of everyone listening, "That must break down in 18 ways?" Oh, it definitely does.

正如你可以想象的那样，每个人的脑海中都会浮现出“这必须以 18 种方式崩溃？”哦，确实如此。

And so I'm not promising one day it won't change.

所以我不保证有一天它不会改变。

But again, continuous through the company is, assume you don't know.

但同样，假设你不知道，整个公司的连续性是这样的。

Start by asking what could be, and let's just try some things and see what happens.

首先问问可能发生什么，然后让我们尝试一些事情，看看会发生什么。

Lenny: Start with what could be.

莱尼：从可能发生的事情开始。

I love that value.

我喜欢这个价值。

This episode is brought to you by Linear.

本集由 Linear 为您带来。

Let's be honest, this sheet tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful.

老实说，您今天使用的这个工作表跟踪器并不是很有帮助。

Why is it that always seems to be working against you, instead of working for you?

为什么它似乎总是对你不利，而不是为你工作？

Why does it feel like such a chore to use?

为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？

Well, Linear is different.

那么，线性则不同。

It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process, from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.

它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化您的整个产品开发流程，从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图。

Linear's designed for the way modern software teams work.

Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。

What users love about Linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync.

用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进度的循环以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。

In short, it just works.

简而言之，它就是有效的。

Linear is the default tool of choice among startups and it powers a wide range of large, established companies such as Versel Retool and Cash App.

Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Versel Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。

See for yourself why product teams describe using Linear as magical visit linear.app/lenny to try Linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade.

亲自了解为什么产品团队将使用 Linear 形容为神奇的，请访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队免费试用 Linear，并在升级时享受 25% 的折扣。

That's linear.app/lenny.

那是 Linear.app/lenny。

Lenny: So, I was going to ask you actually, you talked about why you don't have PMs.

Lenny：所以，我其实想问你，你谈到了为什么没有产品经理。

Do you think you'll hire PMs in the future, having a PM background?

您认为您将来会雇用具有 PM 背景的 PM 吗？

Do you think you'll get there or do you think you'll try to stick to this?

你认为你会到达那里还是你认为你会努力坚持下去？

People do the PM role, depending on the project?

人们担任 PM 角色，具体取决于项目？

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

We've increasingly hiring people that at other companies may have a PM title.

我们越来越多地雇用在其他公司可能拥有 PM 头衔的人员。

I'd say we have two to three right now, that could have a PM title at another company.

我想说我们现在有两到三个，可能在另一家公司拥有 PM 头衔。

I don't think we will have a pm organization, or a PM role, because again, we believe depending on ...

我认为我们不会有 PM 组织或 PM 角色，因为我们再次相信取决于......

If you unpack the verbs that a PM does, I think those are verbs that anyone that we hire could do.

如果你解开产品经理所做的动词，我认为这些动词是我们雇用的任何人都可以做的。

And it really depends on what is the project?

这实际上取决于项目是什么？

And what are we trying to do?

我们想做什么？

I think the thing that will be unwavering is we like to hire mutts.

我认为坚定不移的是我们喜欢雇用杂种狗。

And I haven't yet figured out a term that comes off as more endearing, because it's meant to be very endearing, but ...

我还没有想出一个更讨人喜欢的术语，因为它本来就应该非常讨人喜欢，但是......

For example, there's a woman in a company named Rebecca.

例如，一家公司有一位名叫丽贝卡的女士。

Josh Miller: Rebecca was a data scientist we use at Cora.

乔什·米勒：丽贝卡是我们在 Cora 聘用的一名数据科学家。

She got her PhD in MIT in I think behavioral psychology or something.

她在麻省理工学院获得了行为心理学或其他专业的博士学位。

I'm probably going to misquote that.

我可能会错误引用这一点。

But, got some crazy degree at MIT, and then was a software engineer at Stripe.

但是，我在麻省理工学院获得了一些疯狂的学位，然后在 Stripe 担任软件工程师。

And I'm talking about Rebecca through her resume.

我正在通过丽贝卡的简历谈论她。

There's so much about Rebecca.

关于丽贝卡的事情太多了。

She plays effectively a PM role right now.

她现在实际上扮演着PM的角色。

She is effectively PMing our effectively our multi-player team.

她正在有效地PM我们的多人团队。

But what was so awesome about meeting Rebecca is her and other people at this company have the mindset of, "I make things, and I will do what I need to do to make what I want to make.

但与丽贝卡见面的最棒之处在于，她和这家公司的其他人都有这样的心态：“我制造东西，我会做我需要做的事情来制造我想做的东西。

Whenever that verb is, whenever that discipline is." And that requires people that are multidisciplinary in practice and multidisciplinary in approach to their work.

每当那个动词出现时，每当那个纪律出现时。”这需要人们在实践中具有跨学科的能力，并在工作方法上具有跨学科的能力。

It's not that we don't hire PMs, but we want to hire people who have a multidisciplinary approach and view things as, "I like to make things.

这并不是说我们不雇用产品经理，而是我们希望雇用具有多学科方法并以“我喜欢创造东西”的方式看待事物的人。

Tell me how I contribute to making it." And sometimes they may play the verbs of a PM and sometimes it may be something else.

告诉我我如何为实现它做出贡献。”有时他们可能会扮演 PM 的动词，有时可能会扮演其他角色。

Lenny: This can be a really interesting story to follow.

莱尼：这可能是一个非常有趣的故事。

I've seen this journey a few times at different companies.

我在不同的公司见过几次这样的旅程。

What I find is a lot of times people that are good at other things like engineering or design, for a while, they're like, "Yep.

我发现很多时候，擅长工程或设计等其他方面的人，有一段时间，他们会说，“是的。

We don't need PMs.

我们不需要 PM。

I'll do the PM job." And then eventually they're like, "This sucks.

我会做总理的工作。”最后他们会说：“这太糟糕了。

I hate doing this stuff.

我讨厌做这种事。

I want to design.

我想做设计。

Leave me alone.

别管我了。

I don't want to sit on a all day.

我不想坐一整天。

I don't want to be in meetings." So eventually, it turns out, they're like, "Okay.

我不想参加会议。”事实证明，最终他们会说：“好吧。

Let's find someone to do this thing that loves it." And so that's one thing that happens.

让我们找一个热爱这件事的人来做吧。”这就是发生的一件事。

Lenny: The other thing I find is, I'm sure you've seen this, a lot of people are wary of PMs.

Lenny：我发现的另一件事是，我相信你已经看到了这一点，很多人都对 PM 持谨慎态度。

They come in and they're like, "Here's what we're doing," and they're just adults process complexity.

他们进来后会说，“这就是我们正在做的事情”，他们只是处理复杂性的成年人。

What I find is those are just bad PMs.

我发现这些都是糟糕的产品经理。

If you have an awesome PM, everything just gets better.

如果你有一位出色的产品经理，一切都会变得更好。

Everyone's happier, things move faster.

每个人都更快乐，事情进展得更快。

So I think companies often get to that stage.

所以我认为公司经常会达到这个阶段。

And then also there's just career development stuff, eventually as you scale.

然后还有职业发展的东西，最终随着你的规模扩大。

It's like "What happened to my career path," and they're like, "All right.

就像“我的职业道路发生了什么”，他们会说，“好吧。

Well, we got to go on one road or another." It's hard to stay in this hybrid role.

好吧，我们必须走一条路或另一条路。”保持这种混合角色很困难。

But I super respect the first principal's approach of let's just-

但我非常尊重第一任校长的做法，让我们——

Josh Miller: And, for what's worth, Lenny.

乔什·米勒：而且，无论如何，莱尼。

I think you're almost, definitely right.

我认为你几乎、绝对是对的。

And I think it will almost definitely happen with us.

我认为这几乎肯定会发生在我们身上。

And again, this goes back to the "assume you don't know." The "assume you don't know," is try a prototype and then assume it's not going to work.

再说一次，这又回到了“假设你不知道”。 “假设你不知道”是尝试一个原型，然后假设它行不通。

So, even in my own experience, I remember getting to know Evan from Snapchat just enough to know how he talked about PMs at Snap.

因此，即使根据我自己的经验，我记得从 Snapchat 认识 Evan 也足以了解他如何谈论 Snap 的产品经理。

And it was, "We're never going to hire PMs at Snap.

它是，“我们永远不会在 Snap 雇用产品经理。

Everyone's a designer." And, I have no relationship with him anymore, but you can look, there are a lot of PMs at Snapchat.

每个人都是设计师。”而且，我和他已经没有关系了，但是你可以看看，Snapchat 有很多 PM。

Josh Miller: So I know from my own experience with people that I respect from a product perspective that were indignant, they would never hire PMs, their organizations now have PMs.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：所以，从我自己的经验来看，我从产品角度尊重的人感到愤怒，他们永远不会雇用产品经理，他们的组织现在有产品经理。

And that's probably for a really good reason.

这可能是有充分理由的。

I would tell say also on our team, if any of our designers are listening, they'll tell you these, whatever you want to call it, "These verbs are taking up a lot of my time, and I do not have as much time to think and dream and design and do user research." And so, we're already feeling it breaking into our company.

我还要告诉我们的团队，如果我们的任何设计师在听，他们会告诉你这些，无论你想怎么称呼它，“这些动词占用了我很多时间，我没有那么多时间思考、梦想、设计和做用户研究。”因此，我们已经感觉到它正在侵入我们的公司。

Josh Miller: I think the intentionality, whatever comes next, whatever it is, is leaders of the project should be picked for the projects, not because they're in a certain org at our company.

乔希·米勒：我认为，无论接下来发生什么，无论是什么，项目的领导者都应该被选为项目的领导者，而不是因为他们在我们公司的某个组织中。

And, if we ever hire people to do the PM role, we want them to think of themselves as people who make things and have lots of different disciplines and tools in their toolkit, not just the PM discipline.

而且，如果我们雇用人员担任 PM 角色，我们希望他们将自己视为创造事物的人，并且在他们的工具包中拥有许多不同的学科和工具，而不仅仅是 PM 学科。

And, of course, even that could be wrong, and maybe in a year we cave.

当然，即使这样也可能是错误的，也许一年后我们就会屈服。

I got it totally wrong.

我完全错了。

We got it totally wrong.

我们完全错了。

So, we'll see.

那么，我们拭目以待。

But I would also, that that of all the things I shared on this podcast so far, this is probably the one I'll come crawling back to your podcast in a couple years, being, "Lenny, you were right.

但我也想，到目前为止我在这个播客上分享的所有内容中，这可能是我几年后会爬回你的播客的内容，“莱尼，你是对的。

It all blew up!"

都炸了！”

Lenny: But it's a fun experiment and Snap is a good example.

Lenny：但这是一个有趣的实验，Snap 就是一个很好的例子。

Stripes another, where they waited a long time to hire their first PMs.

另一个是条纹，他们等了很长时间才聘请第一批产品经理。

And I think it's because their designers or engineers were just incredibly good at that element.

我认为这是因为他们的设计师或工程师非常擅长这个元素。

And it was also very design-forward or very edge-forward, so they didn't need as much PM skill initially.

而且它的设计也非常前卫或非常前卫，所以他们最初不需要那么多的 PM 技能。

Josh Miller: If I had to predict, I would predict that if we found that we were missing this discipline as a team, I think we would evolve Rebecca's team, which is technically the data team, and do something closer to a technical PM or data plus Again, it's all live, but the thought has even crossed our minds recently, that we may be wrong, and what org might we create if we need folks that have more of a background of like this.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：如果我必须预测，我会预测，如果我们发现我们作为一个团队缺少这个纪律，我认为我们会发展丽贝卡的团队，从技术上讲是数据团队，并做一些更接近于技术 PM 或数据加的事情。再说一遍，这一切都是实时的，但这个想法最近甚至闪过我们的脑海，我们可能是错的，如果我们需要有更多这样背景的人，我们可能会创建什么组织。

Lenny: I'm excited for the video of this discussion that might happen.

莱尼：我对可能发生的这次讨论的视频感到很兴奋。

It's also interesting, your PM that you mentioned, Rebecca is very data oriented.

同样有趣的是，你提到的你的 PM，Rebecca 非常注重数据。

And then, the initial discussion we had around focus on feelings and that sort of thing.

然后，我们最初的讨论集中在感受之类的事情上。

So, that's cool that you have this really interesting balance of people that are very data focused and then this, "Okay.

所以，很酷的是，你在非常注重数据的人员之间实现了这种非常有趣的平衡，然后“好吧。

But let's not obsess with that.

但我们不要沉迷于此。

What are the feelings we're trying to create?"

我们想要创造什么感觉？”

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Because again, the point of optimizing for feelings is not hire people who make feelings.

因为，优化感情的重点不是雇佣那些能够产生感情的人。

It's like Rebecca's title is Data Lead.

就像丽贝卡的头衔是数据主管一样。

She runs our data team.

她负责管理我们的数据团队。

But, Rebecca's one of the most humanistic people I know.

但是，丽贝卡是我认识的最人性化的人之一。

You meet her and you feel the warmth that you feel when you talk to you, and you ask her what she does outside of work.

你见到她，感受到与你交谈时感受到的温暖，你问她工作之外做什么。

And so, it's not that data doesn't have a role.

因此，并不是说数据没有作用。

Actually I'd say, for better or worse, data is part of our practice.

实际上我想说，无论好坏，数据都是我们实践的一部分。

It's more about what's that top-level intentionality?

更多的是关于什么是顶层意向性？

What are we trying to do here?

我们在这里想做什么？

But, yeah.

但是，是的。

We have a lot of people that, data is either a noun they've had in their resume or it's been a part of their practice a lot in the past.

我们有很多人认为，数据要么是他们简历中的一个名词，要么是他们过去经常实践的一部分。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

One very tactical question with the storytelling team makes me think about Airbnb's video team.

故事讲述团队提出的一个非常战术性的问题让我想到了 Airbnb 的视频团队。

A lot of people are joking internally for years and years that the videos Airbnb put out in the early days accounts for half their market cap, because they're so good.

多年来，很多人在内部开玩笑说，Airbnb 早期发布的视频占了其市值的一半，因为它们太棒了。

And you're just like, "Oh, my God, I want to go on an Airbnb." They just make you feel so much and they're soul made.

你就会说，“天啊，我想去 Airbnb 住。”他们只是让你感觉如此之多，而且他们是灵魂所创造的。

So, what is the makeup of your storytelling team?

那么，你们的讲故事团队的构成是怎样的？

Because I imagine some companies maybe listening, like maybe we should do something like this on our team.

因为我想有些公司可能会倾听，就像我们应该在我们的团队中做这样的事情。

Josh Miller: We have a three-person storytelling team.

乔什·米勒：我们有一个三人讲故事的团队。

It's run by a woman named Nash.

它由一位名叫纳什的女士经营。

There is a gentleman named Ellis, who is a ...

有一位名叫埃利斯的绅士，他是...

Background, started as a reporter at The Verge.

背景，最初是 The Verge 的一名记者。

Maybe there was a publication before that.

也许在那之前已经有出版物了。

But I met him when he was a reporter at The Verge covering social media.

但我认识他时，他还是 The Verge 负责社交媒体报道的记者。

And then he ran marketing strategy for Snapchat for seven years.

然后他负责 Snapchat 的营销策略长达七年。

And then we have a person named Josh Lee, who I actually met as an intern.

然后我们有一个叫乔什·李（Josh Lee）的人，我实际上是在实习时认识的。

He was an intern at Facebook as a designer, that an intern for me at the White House when I worked at the White House, and then decided that he was over product design and over design, and totally just jumped and be like, "I'm going to be a filmmaker," and has been making really fascinating indie films for a few years now.

他是 Facebook 的实习生，担任设计师，当我在白宫工作时，他也是我在白宫的实习生，然后他决定自己已经超越了产品设计和设计，并且完全跳了起来，“我要成为一名电影制片人”，并且几年来一直在制作非常迷人的独立电影。

And he's our video editor on the team.

他是我们团队中的视频编辑。

Josh Miller: And it's so interesting.

乔什·米勒：这很有趣。

Nash's background, she had a brief stint at NBC.

就纳什的背景而言，她曾在 NBC 短暂任职。

But again, you get to know her and she writes poems after hours and her dream is to write a fictional book.

但是，当你再次了解她时，她会在下班后写诗，她的梦想是写一本虚构的书。

I mean, anyone that knows Nash, especially is just a force.

我的意思是，任何了解纳什的人，尤其是一股力量。

A force.

一股力量。

And the three of them, what's so interesting about them, which also relates to our design team ...

而他们三个，到底有什么有趣的地方，这也和我们的设计团队有关……

One of the things I also found at Facebook is there was a tendency toward homogeneity.

我在 Facebook 还发现的一件事是存在同质化趋势。

As you know, there's a stereotype of a Facebook PM for example, or a Google PM, the contrast between them and the way they work.

如您所知，人们对 Facebook PM 或 Google PM 存在刻板印象，他们之间的对比以及他们的工作方式。

And one of the things we also have purposely done on the storytelling team and otherwise, let's hire radically different archetypes.

我们还特意在讲故事团队中做了一件事，否则，让我们雇用完全不同的原型。

Ellis cannot be more different than Nash.

埃利斯与纳什截然不同。

Nash cannot be more different than Josh.

纳什与乔什截然不同。

There's some shared values, there's some shared beliefs, but they're very different.

有一些共同的价值观，有一些共同的信仰，但它们有很大不同。

Josh Miller: Ditto on the design team.

乔什·米勒：设计团队也是如此。

Our design team?

我们的设计团队？

They are all over the place in terms of who they are, what they've done, their sensibilities, their aspirations.

他们的身份、做过的事、情感、愿望都各不相同。

And whether it's the storytelling team or the design team, that can be hard sometimes, just to be honest.

老实说，无论是讲故事的团队还是设计团队，有时这都很难。

It's a lot easier to say, "Hey, we're the Acme Co storytelling team, we're Acme Co design team.

说“嘿，我们是 Acme Co 讲故事团队，我们是 Acme Co 设计团队”要容易得多。

We hire designers like this and storytellers that." We hire people all over the place.

我们聘请这样的设计师和这样的讲故事的人。”我们在各地雇用人员。

We have an extremely diverse team, but in all senses of the word.

我们拥有一支极其多元化的团队，但在各个方面都是如此。

But again, the no PM thing, it's not without flaws.

但话又说回来，没有 PM 的事情，也并非没有缺陷。

I can see why a lot of large companies over time tend are like, "It's the Facebook way or no way," or "You're not good for here."

我能理解为什么许多大公司随着时间的推移往往会说，“这是 Facebook 的出路，或者没有出路”，或者“你不适合这里”。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It's actually I think, exact makeup of Airbnb video team.

我认为这实际上是 Airbnb 视频团队的组成。

I forget what they were called.

我忘记他们叫什么了。

They didn't have a cool name, the storytelling team I think.

我认为他们没有一个很酷的名字，就是讲故事的团队。

But it was a videographer, an editor and then their producer, basically.

但基本上是一名摄像师、一名剪辑师，然后是他们的制片人。

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

I mean, I remember going to Airbnb's offices early in my career and seeing the storyboards lining the walls and just being like, "I want to work here." So, I'm actually not familiar with the ...

我的意思是，我记得在我职业生涯的早期去过 Airbnb 的办公室，看到墙上排列着的故事板，我就想，“我想在这里工作。”所以说，我其实对这个不太熟悉……

I mean, I'm familiar with Airbnb's videos and brand marketing, fucking fantastic, excuse my language.

我的意思是，我熟悉 Airbnb 的视频和品牌营销，太棒了，请原谅我的语言。

But, yeah.

但是，是的。

I remember just walking around that office being like, "Oh, my goodness!

我记得我在办公室里走来走去时就想，“哦，天哪！

Are they making a movie or something?

他们在拍电影还是什么？

I want to here."

我想要这里。”

Lenny: Funny you say that.

莱尼：你这么说真有趣。

And for folks that want to find that, we'll link to it in show notes.

对于那些想要找到它的人，我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

But if you Google "Snow White Airbnb," you'll actually see these storyboards.

但如果你用谷歌搜索“白雪公主爱彼迎”，你实际上会看到这些故事板。

They basically hired a Pixar storyboard artist to draw out key frames of the journey of a host and a guest.

他们基本上聘请了皮克斯故事板艺术家来绘制主人和客人旅程的关键帧。

And that became a central element of the strategy of, let's make each of these moments as amazing as possible.

这成为了战略的核心要素，让我们让每一个时刻都尽可能精彩。

And it was based on the movie Snow White.

它是根据电影白雪公主改编的。

You can read about it.

你可以阅读相关内容。

Josh Miller: For what it's worth, this is a great moment to share.

乔什·米勒：无论如何，这是一个值得分享的好时刻。

All of the beliefs that I've shared here on behalf of our team, these aren't things that we just originally came up with.

我代表我们团队在这里分享的所有信念，这些都不是我们最初想出的。

They're moments like when I went to Airbnb's office early in my career and saw these Snow White storyboards lining the walls.

这些时刻就像我在职业生涯早期去过 Airbnb 的办公室，看到墙上挂着的白雪公主故事板一样。

That had an impact on me.

这对我产生了影响。

Even the idea that you would think in terms of that moment, you could actually see the lineage to, well, how do you want that person to feel when they open that door for the first time?

即使你会考虑那一刻的想法，你实际上也可以看到血统，那么，当他们第一次打开那扇门时，你希望那个人有什么感觉？

So, I think it's just a great moment to shout out that we've accumulated a lot of doses of inspiration, like that day at Airbnb, that trickle down to us talking about optimizing for feelings.

所以，我认为这是一个很好的时刻，让我们大声喊出我们已经积累了很多灵感，就像在 Airbnb 的那天一样，这些灵感慢慢地流向我们谈论优化感受。

But that didn't come in a vacuum.

但这并不是凭空而来的。

That's our expression of what we've seen in the industry.

这就是我们对行业所见所闻的表达。

This is building on the backs of so many people and companies that we've been fortunate to see.

这是建立在我们有幸看到的这么多人和公司的支持之上的。

Lenny: And now the trickling is happening from your lessons and experience and your unique approach.

莱尼：现在，你的教训、经验和独特的方法正在慢慢产生影响。

Josh Miller: I hope.

乔什·米勒：我希望如此。

There's a documentary that I highly recommend called General Magic.

我强烈推荐一部纪录片，名叫《General Magic》。

And it's one of the best pieces of media I've seen related to technology industry.

这是我见过的与科技行业相关的最好的媒体之一。

And it's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

I think there are two types of people to just be very ...

我认为有两种类型的人非常...

There are people that watch that and view it as, "Wow!

有些人看到这一点并认为，“哇！

What a missed opportunity," or almost like a sad story.

多么错失的机会”，或者几乎就像一个悲伤的故事。

And I view it as, "If only we could be so lucky to assemble a group of people like that." And the thing about that documentary, for anyone that hasn't listened to it is, essentially was the iPhone before the iPhone, with the most legendary group of technologists working there.

我认为，“如果我们能如此幸运地聚集一群这样的人就好了。”对于那些没有听过这部纪录片的人来说，这部纪录片本质上就是 iPhone 出现之前的 iPhone，最传奇的技术专家团队在那里工作。

And it totally failed, completely failed by all traditional business definitions.

它彻底失败了，按照所有传统的商业定义来说，它彻底失败了。

Josh Miller: But, what stuck with me from the documentary, how proud and nostalgic and passionate those individuals were in reminiscing about their time there.

乔什·米勒：但是，这部纪录片让我印象深刻的是，那些人在回忆他们在那里的时光时是多么自豪、怀旧和热情。

And then, what they all went on to create.

然后，他们继续创造了什么。

And the fact that even today on this podcast, I'm sitting here talking about General Magic.

事实上，即使在今天的播客中，我仍然坐在这里谈论 General Magic。

So, I mean, to your point of hopefully Browser Company will have ripple effects.

所以，我的意思是，就您而言，希望浏览器公司会产生连锁反应。

That to me is the ultimate goal, for me personally, at a very emotional level.

对我个人而言，在情感层面上，这就是最终目标。

If we could only be so lucky.

如果我们能这么幸运就好了。

That, to me, seems like success in many ways.

对我来说，这在很多方面似乎都是成功。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

What's cool is you're getting a lot of footage that will be very useful for a future documentary on the history of The Browser Company.

很酷的是，您将获得大量素材，这些素材对于未来制作有关浏览器公司历史的纪录片非常有用。

Josh Miller: I didn't think about it like that, for better or worse.

乔什·米勒：无论好坏，我都没有这样想过。

Lenny: One last thought, I was going to mention it in terms of the storytelling movie-making elements of Airbnb.

Lenny：最后一个想法是，我想在 Airbnb 的讲故事电影制作元素方面提到这一点。

Fun fact, there was a period where product managers were actually called producers, because one of the founders was like, "We don't want to manage product, we want to produce beautiful experiences," like a movie producer.

有趣的是，曾经有一段时间，产品经理实际上被称为制片人，因为其中一位创始人说，“我们不想管理产品，我们想要创造美好的体验”，就像电影制片人一样。

And so that was a year and a half maybe of Airbnb's history, where product managers were producers.

这就是 Airbnb 一年半的历史，产品经理就是生产者。

The problem is, we got a lot of job applicants from Emmy-winning producers and they're like, "oh, I want to work at Airbnb."

问题是，我们收到了很多来自艾美奖获奖制片人的求职者，他们会说：“哦，我想在 Airbnb 工作。”

Josh Miller: I know this podcast is about very tactical advice.

乔什·米勒：我知道这个播客是关于非常战术性的建议。

So, one tactical piece of advice I'll give is, whether or not you like the idea of the storytelling team or something else, a byproduct of some of these experiments that we've found works really well is when you give something a new name, it sheds a lot of preconceived notions of what the thing should be.

因此，我要给出的一个战术建议是，无论你是否喜欢讲故事团队的想法或其他什么，我们发现其中一些实验的副产品非常有效，那就是当你给某个东西起一个新名字时，它会摆脱很多关于该东西应该是什么的先入为主的观念。

We found that even with product.

我们发现即使是产品也是如此。

So if you say you're building a browser history feature, then the benefit is everyone knows what you're talking about.

因此，如果您说您正在构建浏览器历史记录功能，那么好处是每个人都知道您在说什么。

And the downside is, everyone knows what you're talking about.

缺点是，每个人都知道你在说什么。

And you show up with these preconceived notions of what it has to be.

你带着这些先入为主的观念出现。

And so, if you go back again to revalue ask what could be ...

因此，如果你再次回去重新评估，问问可能会发生什么......

In many ways the point of calling the team, the storytelling team or the membership team, or not having PMs as an organization ...

在很多方面，召集团队、讲故事的团队或会员团队，或者没有 PM 作为一个组织的意义......

All of this stuff isn't meant to be novelty for novelty's sake.

所有这些东西并不是为了新奇而新奇。

It's meant to almost be a rhetorical tactic, to make people think truly first principles about what are we trying to do here?

这几乎是一种修辞策略，让人们真正思考我们在这里要做什么的首要原则？

Josh Miller: And again, if at the end, producers are called PMs, that's fine.

乔什·米勒：再说一次，如果最后制作人被称为 PM，那很好。

But I assume when it was called a producer, a much more intentionality was given to you communicating and talking and discussing, what does a producer do?

但我想当它被称为制片人时，你会更加有意向地进行沟通、交谈和讨论，制片人是做什么的？

What's their relationship with design?

它们与设计有何关系？

Because no one knew what the heck a producer was.

因为没有人知道制片人到底是什么。

And so, ultimately, that may have been failure in other ways.

因此，最终，这可能在其他方面是失败的。

But that's one of the things we found tactically to be really helpful is, whether it's a product feature or a team, or whatever, give it a made up name just to really get to the root of what you're trying to do there.

但这是我们发现在战术上真正有用的事情之一，无论是产品功能还是团队，还是其他什么，给它一个虚构的名称，以便真正找到您想要在那里做的事情的根源。

Or not borrow too much from wherever you worked before, whatever you've seen, popular media or whatever.

或者不要从你以前工作过的地方、你所见过的、流行媒体或其他什么地方借用太多东西。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

And it's very undo ...

而且这是非常不可撤销的...

Like, you've got to undo it.

就像，你必须撤消它。

It was-

那是——

Lenny: It's a two-way door.

莱尼：这是一扇双向门。

And I like just the vision, the value you have of just prototyping things and whatever.

我喜欢这种愿景，以及制作原型的价值等等。

It didn't work.

它不起作用。

Let's go back to what everyone else is doing.

让我们回到其他人都在做什么。

You mentioned great product and there was something I definitely wanted to chat a bit about, which is just, there's this group of companies who are just focused on, "Let's just build the most amazing product experience." And I feel like The Browser Company is at the forefront in a lot of this.

你提到了很棒的产品，我确实想聊聊一些事情，那就是，有一群公司只专注于“让我们打造最令人惊叹的产品体验”。我觉得浏览器公司在很多方面都处于领先地位。

But it's like you guys, Linear, Raycast is this product, Cron.

但就像你们一样，Linear，Raycast 就是这个产品，Cron。

There's probably a few more and I'd love to actually hear if there's others that I'm not thinking about.

可能还有更多，我很想听听是否还有其他我没有考虑到的。

That are just obsessed with the user experience and less focused on drive metrics, drive revenue.

他们只是痴迷于用户体验，不太关注推动指标、推动收入。

Lenny: And I'm curious, just where do you think this goes?

莱尼：我很好奇，你认为这会走向何方？

What's your take on this trend?

您对这一趋势有何看法？

Why isn't every company thinking this way?

为什么不是每个公司都这么想呢？

Or is this just like, "We don't know if this is a good idea in the end?" So what's your take on this cohort of just like, "We're just going to build the best possible product and hope it all works out,"?

或者这就像“我们不知道这到底是不是一个好主意？”那么，您对这群“我们只是要打造尽可能最好的产品并希望一切顺利”的人有何看法？

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Well, I'll say first, I love those products, or many of those products you mentioned.

好吧，我首先要说的是，我喜欢这些产品，或者你提到的许多产品。

There's some I haven't really used.

有一些我还没有真正使用过。

But, for example, our company runs on Linear, and has run on Linear since day one.

但是，例如，我们公司在 Linear 上运行，并且从第一天起就一直在 Linear 上运行。

So, I'm a big fan of that.

所以，我非常喜欢它。

So, the way that we think about it is ...

所以，我们思考这个问题的方式是......

So, I actually spent two years at a venture capital firm as an investor, called Thrive Capital.

所以，我实际上在一家名为 Thrive Capital 的风险投资公司担任投资者两年。

They've invested in Slack and GitHub and a lot of really transformative companies.

他们投资了 Slack 和 GitHub 以及许多真正具有变革性的公司。

But I was an investor there.

但我是那里的投资者。

I was a venture capitalist.

我是一名风险投资家。

It even feels weird to say that.

甚至连说这话的感觉都怪怪的。

And I learned a lot.

我学到了很多。

A lot.

很多。

A lot.

很多。

A lot from that experience.

从那次经历中得到了很多。

It has made me, I think, a better CEO and a better product leader.

我认为，它让我成为了更好的首席执行官和更好的产品领导者。

And one of the things I learned is different ideas, product ideas, business ideas, company ideas come with different attributes and things that will matter to their success.

我学到的一件事是不同的想法，产品想法，商业想法，公司想法具有不同的属性和对他们的成功至关重要的东西。

Josh Miller: And so, when thinking about starting The Browser Company and picking this category of software, Hursch and I were incredibly intentional about what that would mean for what would need to matter for our company.

乔什·米勒：因此，当考虑创办浏览器公司并选择此类软件时，赫希和我非常有意地考虑这对我们公司来说意味着什么。

And so, if you think about the web browser category, traditionally ...

因此，如果您考虑网络浏览器类别，传统上......

I'm not saying forward facing, I'm not saying it is what we are doing.

我不是说面向前，我不是说这就是我们正在做的事情。

But, if you were to look backwards and take The Browser Company out of it, and look at the web browser category, you'd notice a few things.

但是，如果您回顾过去，将浏览器公司排除在外，看看网络浏览器类别，您会注意到一些事情。

The first is, it's actually one of the most consumer pieces of software out there.

首先，它实际上是最受消费者欢迎的软件之一。

People forget that.

人们忘记了这一点。

That's the opportunity to us.

这就是我们的机会。

If you ask someone in the street, "What's your web browser?

如果你在街上问某人“你的网络浏览器是什么？

What do you think?" They either won't know or they won't care, ".

你觉得怎么样？”他们要么不知道，要么不在乎”。

I don't know."

我不知道。”

Josh Miller: But what pieces of software do your parents, do your little nieces and nephews and you use?

乔什·米勒：但是你的父母、你的小侄女、侄子和你都使用哪些软件呢？

What's at the center of that Venn diagram?

维恩图的中心是什么？

Your parents hopefully don't use TikTok and Instagram, or probably don't.

希望你的父母不要使用 TikTok 和 Instagram，或者可能不会。

Your nieces and nephews, I hope don't have a reason for email at the tender age of 16, or a calendar.

我希望你的侄女和侄子们在 16 岁的时候没有理由发电子邮件或日历。

And a web browser's one of the few things in the middle.

网络浏览器是中间的少数几个东西之一。

So it's an incredibly universal piece of software consumer, unlike very few other things outside of a smartphone and messaging, and maybe video calling in 2023 and a web browser.

因此，它是一种令人难以置信的通用软件消费者，与智能手机和消息传递之外的很少有其他东西不同，也许还有 2023 年的视频通话和网络浏览器。

So, it's very consumer, very universal.

所以，它非常消费者化，非常普遍。

Josh Miller: The second attribute is, it's a commodity.

乔什·米勒：第二个属性是，它是一种商品。

I'm not saying that Arc is a commodity or we want it to be, but objectively web browsers are interchangeable.

我并不是说 Arc 是一种商品，或者我们希望它成为一种商品，但客观上，网络浏览器是可以互换的。

They all do the same thing.

他们都做同样的事情。

Increasingly, they're literally just carbon copies of the exact same code chromium, with little tweaks, little tweaks around the edges.

越来越多的情况是，它们实际上只是完全相同的代码 Chromium 的复制品，只是进行了一些细微的调整，在边缘进行了一些细微的调整。

So, they're all the same.

所以，它们都是一样的。

It's a commodity market.

这是一个商品市场。

And they're unbelievably lucrative.

而且他们的利润令人难以置信。

Browsers print cash.

浏览器打印现金。

There is a reason why they're owned primarily by Google, Apple and Microsoft.

它们主要由谷歌、苹果和微软所有，这是有原因的。

They're incredibly high margin, they're incredibly lucrative.

他们的利润率高得令人难以置信，利润丰厚得令人难以置信。

Low marginal costs.

边际成本低。

The cost of revenue is incredibly low, et cetera, et cetera.

收入成本低得令人难以置信，等等。

Josh Miller: So we have a product that everyone in the world uses, where they're all identical, essentially, interchangeable commodities.

乔什·米勒：所以我们有一种世界上每个人都使用的产品，它们都是相同的，本质上是可互换的商品。

And if you can get people to use it, you're going to print money.

如果你能让人们使用它，你就会印钞票。

So, the attributes of that business and that product category mean, you have to win on how much do people love your product and feel an emotional connection to it, and choose your brand, your product over the other, almost not rationally, but emotionally.

因此，该业务和该产品类别的属性意味着，您必须赢得人们对您的产品的喜爱程度并对其产生情感联系，并选择您的品牌、您的产品而不是其他产品，几乎不是理性的，而是情感的。

And so, if you tie that back to everything I've said before, bingo!

所以，如果你把它与我之前所说的一切联系起来，宾果游戏！

That is what we want to work on.

这就是我们想要努力的方向。

That's what we want.

这就是我们想要的。

We want to create emotional connection with people.

我们希望与人们建立情感联系。

We're creating that emotional connection with as many people as possible and delighting them with surprises and animations, is the way you win.

我们正在与尽可能多的人建立情感联系，并通过惊喜和动画让他们高兴，这就是您获胜的方式。

It's not romantic, it is practical.

这不是浪漫，而是实用。

In many ways it's capitalistic.

从很多方面来说，它都是资本主义的。

This is how we win this market if you want to think about it that way.

如果你想这样想的话，这就是我们赢得这个市场的方式。

Josh Miller: So, the reason I hesitate to answer your question directly is, I don't think that applies to every category of software.

乔什·米勒：所以，我犹豫是否直接回答你的问题的原因是，我认为这并不适用于所有类别的软件。

And to be totally honest, I don't know enough about the ticketing space or the calendaring space or the whatever other space to know, honestly, off the cuff, if that approach is good for those industries.

说实话，我对票务空间、日历空间或其他任何空间都了解不够，老实说，即兴知道这种方法是否适合这些行业。

As a human being, at the other end, I'm really grateful that they picked some reason to do it, whether or not it is part of their business strategy or not.

另一方面，作为一个人，我真的很感激他们选择了一些理由来做这件事，无论这是否是他们商业战略的一部分。

It's a really wonderful trend as a human at the other end that cares about feelings.

作为一个关心感情的另一端的人，这真是一个美妙的趋势。

But I would say, we actually think about it not as a, "We're focusing on the user experience over revenue or growth." We, in fact, picked a category of software we're focusing on brand and user experience is how you get growth and revenue.

但我想说，我们实际上并不认为它是“我们关注的是用户体验而不是收入或增长”。事实上，我们选择了一类我们专注于品牌和用户体验的软件，这是您获得增长和收入的方式。

Josh Miller: And, because we knew that this is who we are, and if we were building cybersecurity software that you sell to government agencies, they are not going to give a shit about rounded edges, or what color the button is, or how surprised you feel with every member update.

乔希·米勒：而且，因为我们知道我们就是这样的人，如果我们正在开发卖给政府机构的网络安全软件，他们就不会关心圆边、按钮是什么颜色，或者你对每次成员更新感到多么惊讶。

So, we didn't build cybersecurity software to sell to the government.

因此，我们构建网络安全软件并不是为了出售给政府。

So, I hope that more people build things at the craft bar of something like Linear, but that's how we think about it, is less of a "this versus that," and more "could we pick something we're going to work on, where that's how you win."

所以，我希望更多的人在像 Linear 这样的工艺栏上构建东西，但这就是我们的想法，而不是“这个与那个”，更多的是“我们可以选择我们要开发的东西，这就是你获胜的方式”。

Lenny: I think that's a really powerful insight, that for consumer software especially, and for commoditized consumer software especially, experience is a differentiator.

莱尼：我认为这是一个非常有力的见解，特别是对于消费类软件，尤其是商品化的消费类软件，体验是一个差异化因素。

You need to give people a reason to even try it, and then end up sticking with it when there's awesome alternatives.

你需要给人们一个尝试的理由，然后当有很棒的替代方案时最终坚持下去。

And so, just an obsession with the experience is a really smart strategy.

因此，对体验的痴迷是一个非常明智的策略。

If you get that right, people use it and continue to use it and you win.

如果你做对了，人们就会使用它并继续使用它，你就赢了。

Josh Miller: I've seen this with a lot of ...

乔什·米勒：我见过很多这样的事情......

And COVID is, I'm sure everyone listening, has a lot of the remote-work collaboration tools.

我相信每个人都在听，新冠疫情有很多远程工作协作工具。

A lot of them obsess, to their credit, over really interesting design details and product feature concepts that were imaginative and brought people together in new ways.

值得赞扬的是，他们中的许多人着迷于真正有趣的设计细节和产品功能概念，这些细节和产品功能概念富有想象力，并以新的方式将人们聚集在一起。

And then the latency of the video of the audio audio was horrible, because they relied on some third-party API that was significantly worse than Zoom.

然后音频音频的视频延迟非常可怕，因为它们依赖于一些比 Zoom 差得多的第三方 API。

And so, that's a great example where in that market, that category software, you better nail latency.

因此，这是一个很好的例子，在该市场、该类别的软件中，您可以更好地解决延迟问题。

I think a great example of this ...

我认为这是一个很好的例子......

One of my favorite products these days, but past years is Tuple.

最近几年我最喜欢的产品之一是 Tuple。

It's ostensibly a paired programming tool that just lives in your menu bar.

它表面上是一个配对的编程工具，就存在于您的菜单栏中。

I'm not paired program with anyone.

我没有与任何人配对计划。

It is the fastest way to talk to someone at your company.

这是与公司人员交谈的最快方式。

And they have an unbelievably simple user experience.

他们拥有令人难以置信的简单的用户体验。

Josh Miller: The designer, based in Lyon, France, is incredible.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：这位来自法国里昂的设计师非常出色。

It's a beautifully designed product.

这是一款设计精美的产品。

And it is the best audio quality I have ever experienced in a communication tool.

这是我在通讯工具中体验过的最好的音频质量。

Better than Zoom.

比变焦更好。

So, that exact same product with all their craft details, sand latency, not going to do it.

因此，完全相同的产品及其所有工艺细节、沙子延迟，不会这样做。

But also Tuple wouldn't have beat a lot of the other competitors for me if it wasn't unbelievably beautiful and easy and simple to use as well.

但如果 Tuple 不是令人难以置信的美丽、简单易用，它也不会击败我的许多其他竞争对手。

So again, I think it's like, what are the attributes you need to win and picking a market that the ones that you want to excel at and work on, are key to that.

再说一遍，我认为，你需要具备哪些特质才能赢得胜利，并选择一个你想要擅长并致力于的市场，这是实现这一目标的关键。

Lenny: And also how much better you need to be.

莱尼：还有你需要变得多好。

Like, if there's a 20% better than Chrome product, people are just going, "That's fine.

就像，如果有比 Chrome 产品好 20% 的产品，人们就会说，“那很好。

I don't need to learn something new and everyone's using something else.

我不需要学习新东西，而每个人都在使用其他东西。

I'm just going to have all these problems." So, you got to be significantly better.

我将会遇到所有这些问题。”所以，你必须变得更好。

And that's a high bar for consumer products.

这对于消费品来说是一个很高的标准。

Final question I wanted to touch on.

我想谈的最后一个问题。

You talked about the big vision for Arc and The Browser Company.

您谈到了 Arc 和浏览器公司的远大愿景。

And you mentioned this idea of the internet computer.

你提到了互联网计算机的想法。

And this is another question Scott Belsky suggested.

这是斯科特·贝尔斯基提出的另一个问题。

By the way, Scott is the CPO of Adobe and just an awesome product-thinker person.

顺便说一句，Scott 是 Adob​​e 的 CPO，也是一位出色的产品思考者。

And he just wanted to make sure that we touch on this, because I think there's a big idea here that maybe people don't realize.

他只是想确保我们触及这个问题，因为我认为这里有一个可能人们没有意识到的伟大想法。

So, if you could just give us a brief overview of, what is just the actual vision and plan for The Browser Company and Arc, long term as a final question?

那么，您能否给我们简要概述一下，作为最后一个问题，浏览器公司和 Arc 的长期实际愿景和计划是什么？

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

So, we call it The Browser Company of New York almost as a misdirection, because as you know from the intro, we view Arc as a replacement for your default web browser, but we're hoping it will be much more.

因此，我们将其称为“纽约浏览器公司”几乎是一种误导，因为正如您从简介中了解到的，我们将 Arc 视为默认 Web 浏览器的替代品，但我们希望它能有更多功能。

And so, to start at the highest level and bring it down to reality, one of the things that I've done many times in my career already is underestimate pretty foundational changes in how we use technology.

因此，为了从最高层面开始并将其付诸现实，我在职业生涯中多次做过的事情之一就是低估了我们使用技术方式的根本性变化。

I've appreciated them but underestimated them.

我很欣赏他们，但低估了他们。

Great example is mobile.

移动设备就是一个很好的例子。

I think me and Hursh's first company would've been much more successful if we really appreciated the tidal wave that was mobile.

我认为，如果我们真正欣赏移动浪潮，我和赫什的第一家公司将会取得更大的成功。

And I think one of those macro trends we're underestimating right now is the shift to cloud computing.

我认为我们现在低估的宏观趋势之一就是向云计算的转变。

The shift to the internet, which may sound weird because every big public company mentions Microsoft Azure or Amazon Web Services.

向互联网的转变听起来可能很奇怪，因为每家大型上市公司都会提到微软 Azure 或亚马逊网络服务。

You hear about cloud, cloud, cloud and cloud.

你听说过云、云、云、云。

But again, that's this business term.

但这又是商业术语。

Josh Miller: What I mean by the shift to cloud computing is, everything in our technology, in our computing lives is moving to the internet.

乔什·米勒：我所说的向云计算的转变是指，我们的技术、我们的计算生活中的一切都正在向互联网转移。

It has been moving, but it's going to move even more.

它一直在移动，但还会移动得更多。

And what I mean by that is, your applications are almost all today web-based, internet-based applications.

我的意思是，今天您的应用程序几乎都是基于 Web、基于互联网的应用程序。

And they will all be soon.

他们很快就会实现。

There's very, very few pieces of truly local-only software or even local-first software left.

真正的本地软件甚至本地优先软件所剩无几。

All of our files are moving to the internet, if they're not all already there.

我们所有的文件都将转移到互联网上（如果它们还没有全部存在的话）。

So if you really think about your files today, and again you ignore the word "files," the stuff you need for work in your personal life.

因此，如果您今天认真考虑您的文件，您会再次忽略“文件”这个词，它是您个人生活中工作所需的东西。

They're not sitting on your desktop, they're all URLs.

它们并不位于您的桌面上，它们都是 URL。

It may be an air quote "PDF," but that PDF is probably out on Dropbox somewhere and you're accessing it as a URL.

它可能是空中引用“PDF”，但该 PDF 可能位于 Dropbox 上的某个位置，并且您正在以 URL 的形式访问它。

Josh Miller: Your photos may seem like they're on your iPhone.

Josh Miller：您的照片可能看起来就像在 iPhone 上一样。

They're not on your iPhone, they're on some iCloud server somewhere.

它们不在你的 iPhone 上，而是在某个 iCloud 服务器上。

When you get a new iPhone, they'll be right there.

当您获得新 iPhone 时，它​​们就会出现。

The manifestation of that actually is, if you smash your device that you're listening to this on right now, whether it's a phone or computer, other than being sad that you lost the resale value and there's a chore of replacing it and a cost of replacing it, you would not lose any of your stuff.

其表现实际上是，如果你砸碎了你现在正在听的设备，无论是手机还是电脑，除了为失去转售价值以及更换它的麻烦和更换成本而感到难过之外，你不会失去任何东西。

So, imagine in five years our entire computing lives are not on our devices, on our computers, on our phones.

因此，想象一下五年后我们的整个计算生活不再在我们的设备、计算机和手机上。

They're out there somewhere.

他们就在外面的某个地方。

They're out in the internet, they're out in the cloud, which begs the question ...

它们在互联网上，在云端，这就引出了一个问题......

I remember when I was 10 and I got my first computer.

我记得当我十岁的时候，我拥有了第一台电脑。

It was a see-through iMac.

这是一台透明的 iMac。

And I wonder ...

我想知道...

My son is two.

我儿子两岁了。

When he's 10, what will his computer be?

当他 10 岁的时候，他的电脑会是什么？

Josh Miller: And I mean computer not in the technical ...

乔什·米勒：我的意思是计算机不是技术领域的......

Again, going back to words and the words that we use.

再次回到词语和我们使用的词语。

I don't mean computer in the literal sense of my MacBook Air, but computer in the human sense of, what you need from your computer, your stuff, your applications and tools that people ...

我指的不是字面意义上的 MacBook Air 计算机，而是人类意义上的计算机，即人们从计算机、您的东西、您的应用程序和工具中需要什么...

Where is that going to be?

那会在哪里？

Where is his computer going to be?

他的电脑在哪里？

I think it's obvious at this point that we're going to have airflow computers everywhere.

我认为现在很明显我们将在各处配备气流计算机。

We already do.

我们已经这样做了。

My car has CarPlay, my TV is a computer, my laptop is a computer.

我的车有 CarPlay，我的电视是电脑，我的笔记本电脑是电脑。

I think that's going to be even more true in five years, where hardware is commoditizing.

我认为五年后，随着硬件商品化，这一点将更加真实。

And it will commoditize even more.

而且它将更加商品化。

They're becoming empty shells that don't have anything on it.

他们正在变成空壳，上面什么也没有。

They're just vessels.

它们只是船只。

They're just interfaces to viewing our real computer, which is out there on the internet somewhere.

它们只是查看我们真实计算机的界面，该计算机位于互联网上的某个地方。

And so, our view is that what we are building at The Browser Company is an internet computer, is a air quote "computer," where the move to the internet and move to the cloud accelerates and continues the tsunami as much as we think it will.

因此，我们的观点是，我们在浏览器公司建造的是一台互联网计算机，是一台空中报价“计算机”，向互联网和云的迁移加速并延续了海啸，正如我们想象的那样。

Josh Miller: And the way we represent that is, we say we want to be to the web browser, what the iPhone was to the cell phone.

乔什·米勒：我们表达这一点的方式是，我们说我们希望成为网络浏览器，就像 iPhone 成为手机一样。

Yes.

是的。

The iPhone replaced your cell phone, but it really was something much more.

iPhone 取代了你的手机，但它确实有更多的意义。

And so, we want Arc to be the iPhone for the internet, and that yes, it replaces your default browser.

因此，我们希望 Arc 成为互联网领域的 iPhone，是的，它会取代您的默认浏览器。

But whether or not we call it the internet computer or something else, it really is that interface, this new type of computer.

但无论我们是否称其为互联网计算机或其他名称，它确实是那种接口、这种新型计算机。

If you play that one step forward, then what we're building today is, we're building our equivalent of multi-touch gestures and the first party-notes app.

如果你向前迈出了一步，那么我们今天正在构建的是，我们正在构建相当于多点触控手势和第一个派对笔记应用程序。

But, on any new computer, any computer or computing device, the developer platform itself is much more interesting and lucrative and world changing than the first-party computer itself.

但是，在任何新计算机、任何计算机或计算设备上，开发者平台本身比第一方计算机本身更有趣、更有利可图，也更能改变世界。

And so, we have no doubt that in the next decade, if we're successful, if we still exist, Arc as a development platform is going to be much more central to what we're doing, building on top of these internet computers, ours and others than anything else.

因此，我们毫不怀疑，在未来十年，如果我们成功，如果我们仍然存在，Arc 作为一个开发平台将成为我们正在做的事情的核心，它构建在这些互联网计算机（我们和其他人的）之上，而不是其他任何东西。

Josh Miller: So to bring that down from reality.

乔什·米勒：所以要把它从现实中拉下来。

If you think about it, the internet, the web, is really the best development platform out there in many ways.

如果你仔细想想，从很多方面来看，互联网确实是最好的开发平台。

It is accessible on every single device.

它可以在每台设备上访问。

It doesn't matter who makes it or the shape and size.

谁制造的、形状和大小并不重要。

It is free to access for individuals.

个人可以免费访问。

You don't need money to access it.

您不需要钱来访问它。

It's free for developers.

它对开发人员免费。

You don't have to pay a license to use it.

您无需支付许可证费用即可使用它。

There's no 30% tax on what you make.

您的收入无需缴纳 30% 的税。

And it's democratic.

而且它是民主的。

The best frameworks can win.

最好的框架可以获胜。

And so, in many ways, if you were to say, "Hey, in this future we want to see, what is the platform that we should be developing on top of, what has the best attributes?" The web has that.

因此，在很多方面，如果你说，“嘿，在这个未来，我们希望看到，我们应该在什么平台上进行开发，什么具有最好的属性？”网络上有这个。

And that's why you're seeing today.

这就是你今天看到的原因。

Why do you think Figma is in the web browser?

您认为 Figma 为什么会出现在网络浏览器中？

Josh Miller: Why do you think Figma's blog post was "Meet us in the Web Browser"?

Josh Miller：您认为 Figma 的博文为何是“在网络浏览器中与我们见面”？

Because as the development platform, developers cross platform in one click.

因为作为开发平台，开发者可以一键跨平台。

There's no tax.

没有税。

Everyone should want to and wants to make for the web.

每个人都应该想要并且想要为网络做出贡献。

The challenge, though, is there's an experience gap.

但挑战在于存在经验差距。

Native software feels better for whatever reason.

无论出于何种原因，本机软件感觉更好。

And the problem is the people that control our interfaces to this development platform that is the web, that is the internet, have incentives to keep it from being as good as local software, from truly native, immersive software.

问题是，控制我们与这个开发平台（即网络、互联网）接口的人有动机阻止它像本地软件一样好，从真正的本地、沉浸式软件。

Apple?

苹果？

They don't want you making web apps or applications for the web.

他们不希望您制作网络应用程序或网络应用程序。

They want you making them for the Mac and the iPhone so they can taxi you when you do it through the app store.

他们希望你为 Mac 和 iPhone 制作它们，这样当你通过应用商店制作时，他们就可以打车给你。

And also surprisingly, Google doesn't want you making stuff, more native and immersive for the air quote "Web," because they want it to be indexed by their search engine.

而且令人惊讶的是，谷歌不希望你为空中引用“网络”制作更原生和更身临其境的东西，因为他们希望它被他们的搜索引擎索引。

Josh Miller: So, there's a reason that the Chrome extension platform is one of the most underutilized opportunities.

Josh Miller：因此，Chrome 扩展平台成为最未被充分利用的机会之一是有原因的。

They view it as a loss leader.

他们将其视为亏损领导者。

They built chrome extensions just so they could have parity with Firefox.

他们构建 Chrome 扩展只是为了能够与 Firefox 平起平坐。

They don't want you making extensions, because you have some immersive extension experience that's not something that you could index in Google.

他们不希望你制作扩展，因为你有一些身临其境的扩展体验，而这些体验是你无法在 Google 中索引的。

And that's taking away from doing searches.

这会影响搜索的效率。

And so, I think we look at this and say, everything is heading to the internet, which means we need interfaces to the internet that are truly more robust than a browser, that are more of a computer.

因此，我认为我们会说，一切都在走向互联网，这意味着我们需要比浏览器更强大、更像是计算机的互联网接口。

And if we do that, then the most interesting opportunity on top of that is actually the things other people were built on top of this development platform.

如果我们这样做，那么最有趣的机会实际上是其他人在这个开发平台上构建的东西。

And if you look at this development platform, which exists today, the worldwide web, the open internet, what is missing is an interface and a set of capabilities and APIs to make web-based experiences as immersive and rich and powerful as native experiences, which require that interface to the internet to provide those.

如果你看看当今存在的这个开发平台，即万维网、开放互联网，你会发现缺少的是一个接口以及一组功能和 API，使基于网络的体验像本机体验一样身临其境、丰富而强大，而这需要互联网接口来提供这些体验。

Josh Miller: And our interfacers to the internet today are the web browser companies.

乔什·米勒：今天我们与互联网的接口是网络浏览器公司。

They have perverse business model incentives as big public companies that have lost the soul of the founders, that they don't want to do that.

作为大型上市公司，他们有不正当的商业模式激励，失去了创始人的灵魂，他们不想这样做。

They don't want to do that.

他们不想那样做。

So it doesn't mean we're going to do it.

所以这并不意味着我们会这么做。

And in fact one of them may win.

事实上，其中之一可能会获胜。

And I actually think that this is something .

我实际上认为这是一些事情。

We're trying to sell anyone in our vision.

我们试图向任何符合我们愿景的人出售。

We feel fully confident there are going to be many types of internet computers and Arc may or may not be one of them.

我们完全有信心将会有多种类型的互联网计算机，而 Arc 可能是也可能不是其中之一。

But we feel very confident that that is the future and the development platform on top of the web and the internet, and these new interfaces will be the most exciting opportunity.

但我们非常有信心，这就是未来，是网络和互联网之上的开发平台，这些新界面将是最令人兴奋的机会。

Lenny: My next question was going to be how do you make money with a browser, which people get for free, really well?

莱尼：我的下一个问题是，你如何通过人们免费获得的浏览器赚钱，真的很好吗？

And now it makes a lot more sense where y'all are going.

现在你们要去哪里更有意义了。

And so, with that, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.

就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, ready?

那么，准备好了吗？

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Josh Miller: Harold and the Purple Crayon, Seeing Is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees, which is a book about Robert Irwin.

乔什·米勒：《哈罗德和紫色蜡笔》，《看见就忘记所见之物的名字》，这是一本关于罗伯特·欧文的书。

That's my number one PM book.

这是我的第一本 PM 书。

So, if you're asking from the perspective of the disciplines of people listening, that book is absolutely fantastic.

所以，如果你从听者的学科角度来提问，那本书绝对是非常棒的。

And then God Saved Texas by Lawrence Wright, who's one of my favorite authors, who if you're interested in road trips, politics, food, culture.

然后是劳伦斯·赖特（Lawrence Wright）的《上帝拯救了德克萨斯》（God Saved Texas），他是我最喜欢的作家之一，如果你对公路旅行、政治、美食、文化感兴趣的话。

So, three very different types of books.

所以，三种截然不同类型的书。

Lenny: What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Josh Miller: The first TV show episode I've cried from in recent memories, episode three of The Last of Us.

乔什·米勒：我最近哭过的第一集电视节目，《最后生还者》第三集。

I thought I was watching a zombie violence thing and I just was sitting there bawling.

我以为我正在观看僵尸暴力事件，而我只是坐在那里哭泣。

So that one.

那么那个。

And then I've been re-watching all of the Adam Curtis documentaries on YouTube.

然后我又在 YouTube 上重新观看了所有 Adam Curtis 的纪录片。

I'm a huge Adam Curtis fan.

我是亚当·柯蒂斯的超级粉丝。

Lenny: I have not heard of Adam Curtis.

莱尼：我没听说过亚当·柯蒂斯。

I will have to go check that out.

我得去看看。

Josh Miller: Hyper-normalization is my favorite.

乔什·米勒：超标准化是我的最爱。

And I would view his work as less non-fictional documentaries and more video art.

我认为他的作品不再是非虚构的纪录片，而是更多的视频艺术。

Lenny: There's been a meme of everyone saying White Lotus is the show to watch.

莱尼：有一个梗是每个人都说《白莲花》是值得观看的节目。

And I feel like it's about to transition to Last of Us.

我觉得它即将过渡到《最后生还者》。

And so we will see how that goes.

所以我们会看看事情会如何发展。

Josh Miller: Can I get it first?

乔什·米勒：我可以先拿到吗？

Was I the first guest to say it?

我是第一个这么说的客人吗？

Lenny: I think you might be actually.

莱尼：我想你可能真的是。

I forget, but I think you might be.

我忘了，但我想你可能是。

Josh Miller: All right.

乔什·米勒：好的。

Well, I'll say episode three, specifically.

好吧，我具体来说一下第三集。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

People love that one.

人们喜欢那个。

But every episode's awesome.

但每一集都很棒。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Favorite interview question you like to ask people when you're interviewing them?

当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问他们的面试问题是什么？

Josh Miller: What would you like to ask me?

乔什·米勒：你想问我什么？

That seems like a non-answer, but my interviews at Browser Company are all, "Ask me anything," and I find what people ask, and how they follow up, is as revealing about who they are and what they care about than anything I could ask them.

这似乎是一个无法回答的问题，但我在浏览器公司的采访都是“问我任何事情”，我发现人们问什么以及他们如何跟进，比我问他们的任何事情都更能揭示他们是谁以及他们关心什么。

Lenny: What is it that you look for in an answer that tells you, okay, this is a good candidate?

莱尼：你在寻找一个告诉你“好吧，这是一个很好的候选人”的答案是什么？

Josh Miller: Authenticity, probably more than anything else.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：真实性可能比什么都重要。

Do they really believe what they're saying?

他们真的相信自己所说的话吗？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What are some SASS products that your company uses and loves, other than ...

贵公司使用并喜爱哪些 SASS 产品，除了......

?

？

I don't know if you consider our SASS, but probably not.

我不知道你是否考虑过我们的 SASS，但可能不会。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Josh Miller: I want to plug Tuple.

Josh Miller：我想插入 Tuple。

I think I'm going to put everything on Tuple, relative to ...

我想我会把所有东西都放在 Tuple 上，相对于......

We run on Notion, we love Notion, we love Linear.

我们在 Notion 上运行，我们热爱 Notion，我们热爱 Linear。

But I'd say the closet hit that I just cannot believe is not a hundred times larger company is Tuple.

但我想说的是，我简直不敢相信最热门的公司不是规模大一百倍的公司是 Tuple。

It is ostensibly a pair programming tool, but don't go in with that mindset.

它表面上是一个结对编程工具，但不要抱着这种心态。

Go in with, "I need to talk to a colleague right now," or "a couple of colleagues right now, to do some work together," and it is absolutely fantastic.

如果你说“我现在需要和一位同事谈谈”，或者“现在需要和几个同事谈谈，一起做一些工作”，这绝对是太棒了。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

I love these products I've never heard of that are super cool.

我喜欢这些我从未听说过的产品，它们非常酷。

We will link to that.

我们将链接到该内容。

Next question.

下一个问题。

What's something relatively minor you've changed in how you build product, that has had a significant impact in your team's ability to ship and execute?

您在构建产品的方式上做了哪些相对较小的改变，但对您团队的交付和执行能力产生了重大影响？

Josh Miller: This past January, a couple months ago, we have started removing me from a lot of the product development process, which seems to be really healthy.

乔什·米勒（Josh Miller）：今年一月，也就是几个月前，我们开始将我从很多产品开发过程中剔除，这似乎非常健康。

So, that has been the big shift this year.

所以，这是今年的重大转变。

Lenny: That's a big transition.

莱尼：这是一个很大的转变。

I went through that at Airbnb and it's great.

我在 Airbnb 经历过这一切，感觉很棒。

It's great for everyone.

这对每个人来说都很棒。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

Best pro-tip for using Arc, that people may not be aware of?

人们可能不知道的使用 Arc 的最佳专业技巧？

Josh Miller: Try your best to not think of it as a browser.

Josh Miller：尽量不要将其视为浏览器。

And have a beginner's mind about how it works and how you might use the internet.

并以初学者的心态了解它的工作原理以及如何使用互联网。

Josh Miller: Yeah.

乔什·米勒：是的。

Big takeaway from this conversation, we got to get much better at describing what the heck we built.

这次谈话的一大收获是，我们必须更好地描述我们到底建造了什么。

And why it's good for you.

以及为什么它对你有好处。

So, I'm not proud of my first or last answer, but it is what it is.

所以，我并不为我的第一个或最后一个答案感到自豪，但事实就是如此。

Lenny: And, actually, I mentioned this in the intro and if you listen to this already, you probably heard it already, but we're going to link ...

莱尼：实际上，我在介绍中提到了这一点，如果您已经听过了，您可能已经听到了，但我们将链接......

In the show notes, we'll have a link to actually get into Arc, because right now it's wait-listed and we have this link that will get you straight into Arc.

在演出说明中，我们将提供一个实际进入 Arc 的链接，因为现在它已列入候补名单，我们有这个链接可以让您直接进入 Arc。

And so go check it out.

所以去看看吧。

Josh, you've shown up with heartfelt intensity.

乔什，你表现得很真诚。

I feel like I want to go apply for a job at The Browser Company now.

我觉得我现在想去浏览器公司申请工作。

But you're not hiring product managers, so I'm not going to do that.

但你们不会招聘产品经理，所以我不会这么做。

Just kidding.

只是在开玩笑。

Thank you so much for being here, for being so genuine and insightful and warm.

非常感谢您来到这里，感谢您如此真诚、富有洞察力和热情。

And thank you.

谢谢你。

Josh Miller: Thank you so much, Lenny.

乔什·米勒：非常感谢你，莱尼。

I really enjoyed this.

我真的很喜欢这个。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes, or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集，或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。