Managing nerves, anxiety, and burnout | Jonny Miller (Nervous Systems Mastery)

Jonny Miller: I have this idea that I call the feather brick dump truck phenomenon, and basically what that means is when we are showing early signs of burnout, our body will give us feedback usually in subtle ways in the beginning.

乔尼·米勒：我有一个想法，我称之为羽毛砖自卸车现象，基本上这意味着当我们表现出早期倦怠迹象时，我们的身体通常会在一开始以微妙的方式给我们反馈。

So the feather might be waking up in the morning and feeling a little bit tired, maybe a little bit exhausted.

所以羽毛可能会在早上醒来并感到有点累，也许有点疲惫。

The brick, maybe you ignore that or you don't notice it, and then three or four weeks later, you have a fight with someone or an argument, or you just feel frustrated and terrible and you lose your cool.

砖头，也许你忽略了这一点，或者你没有注意到它，然后三四个星期后，你和某人打架或争论，或者你只是感到沮丧和可怕，你失去了冷静。

And then maybe the dump truck is a month later, or even a year later, there's a full-blown health crisis, or you develop type two diabetes or there's a whole range of things, or maybe you get fired.

然后，也许自卸车一个月后，甚至一年后，出现了全面的健康危机，或者您患上了二型糖尿病，或者出现了各种各样的情况，或者您可能被解雇了。

Ideally, you want to notice when it's the feather and then make adjustments or shift then and not have to wait until you experience the full-blown pain of the dump truck, which unfortunately is what happens to a lot of people, especially when they experience burnout for the first time.

理想情况下，你想要注意到什么时候是羽毛，然后做出调整或转移，而不必等到你体验到自卸卡车的全面痛苦，不幸的是，这就是很多人都会经历的事情，尤其是当他们第一次经历倦怠时。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Jonny Miller.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是乔尼·米勒。

Jonny teaches courses and does one-on-one coaching with tech professionals helping them with something he calls Nervous System Mastery, which is essentially a set of tools and techniques for cultivating calm, upgrading your resilience, and increasing your aliveness.

乔尼教授课程，并与技术专业人士进行一对一辅导，帮助他们进行他所谓的“神经系统掌握”，这本质上是一套用于培养冷静、增强弹性和增加活力的工具和技术。

If you can get better at dealing with stressful situations, avoiding burnout and being more confident in meetings and big presentations, it becomes a superpower and a huge advantage in both business and in life.

如果您能够更好地处理压力情况，避免倦怠，并在会议和大型演示中更加自信，那么它就会成为商业和生活中的超能力和巨大优势。

I actually read a post by Jonny about a year ago, and it totally changed the way that I think about nervousness and stress, and I still apply many of his lessons today.

事实上，我大约一年前读过乔尼的一篇文章，它完全改变了我对紧张和压力的看法，我今天仍然应用他的许多教训。

Lenny: In our conversation, we dive deep into Jonny's key insights.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了乔尼的关键见解。

We talk about why the best way to stay calm in stressful situations is to focus on the state of your body and not your mind.

我们讨论为什么在压力情况下保持冷静的最好方法是关注你的身体状态而不是你的思想。

How to create calm and confidence by changing the state of your body through breath.

如何通过呼吸改变身体状态来创造平静和自信。

Jonny shares a bunch of very specific breathing exercises for creating calm and also for creating energy that we actually try out on the podcast.

乔尼分享了一系列非常具体的呼吸练习，可以让我们平静下来，也可以创造能量，我们在播客上实际尝试过这些练习。

We also get into a bunch of advice for how to tell if you're seeing early signs of burnout, how to release emotional debt that you may be feeling.

我们还提供了一系列建议，告诉您如何判断您是否出现了倦怠的早期迹象，以及如何释放您可能感受到的情感债务。

Also, why feeling the feels gives you a competitive advantage in business.

另外，为什么感觉感觉会给你带来商业竞争优势。

Also, a practice called APE, which reminds you to focus on your awareness, your posture, and your emotions that have started practicing ever since our chat and so much more.

另外，还有一种叫做 APE 的练习，它会提醒你专注于你的意识、你的姿势和你的情绪，自从我们聊天以来就开始练习这些等等。

If you enjoy this chat, definitely check out Jonny's full course at nsmastery.com/lenny.

如果您喜欢这次聊天，请务必在 nsmastery.com/lenny 上查看 Jonny 的完整课程。

If you use that URL, you actually get $250 off the course.

如果您使用该 URL，您实际上可以从课程中获得 250 美元的折扣。

With that, I bring you Jonny Miller after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了乔尼·米勒 (Jonny Miller)。

Lenny: This time of year is prime for career reflection and setting goals for professional growth.

莱尼：每年的这个时候是职业反思和设定职业发展目标的黄金时间。

I always like to spend this time reflecting on what I accomplished the previous year, what I hope to accomplish the next year, and whether this is the year I look for a new opportunity.

我总是喜欢用这段时间反思我去年完成的事情，我希望明年完成的事情，以及今年是否是我寻找新机会的一年。

That's where today's sponsor Teal comes in.

这就是今天的赞助商蒂尔登场的地方。

Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search with an AI-powered resume builder, job tracker, cover letter generator, and Chrome extension that integrates with over 40 job boards.

Teal 为您提供了一些工具，可通过人工智能驱动的简历生成器、工作跟踪器、求职信生成器以及与 40 多个工作委员会集成的 Chrome 扩展程序来进行令人惊叹的求职。

Teal is the all-in-one platform.

Teal 是一款一体化平台。

You need to run a more streamlined and efficient job search and stand out in this competitive market.

您需要进行更精简、更高效的求职，并在这个竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出。

There's a reason nearly 1 million people have trusted Teal to run their job search.

近 100 万人信任 Teal 来进行求职是有原因的。

If you're thinking of making a change in the year, leverage Teal to grow your career on your own terms.

如果您想在这一年做出改变，请利用青色按照自己的方式发展您的职业生涯。

Get started for free at tealhq.com/lenny.

请访问 tealhq.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's tealhq.com/lenny.

这是tealhq.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Comm, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Comm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。

By offering the most in demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架，例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等。

Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、建立高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny 的播客听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts get started today.

请访问vanta.com/lenny（即 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）了解更多信息并立即开始领取折扣。

Lenny: Jonny, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：乔尼，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: So I read this post that you wrote, I think it was over a year ago at this point.

莱尼：所以我读了你写的这篇文章，我认为此时已经是一年多前了。

It was called The Operating Manual for Your Nervous System, and first of all, blew my mind when I read it.

这本书的名字叫《神经系统操作手册》，首先，当我读到它时，我大吃一惊。

Second of all, I always think about it when I get nervous or anxious in a situation, it's really stuck with me.

其次，当我在某种情况下感到紧张或焦虑时，我总是会想到它，它真的困扰着我。

And I know that people in the workplace often get nervous and anxious doing all hand presentations, meetings, performance reviews, all the things.

我知道，工作场所的人们在做所有的手工演示、会议、绩效评估等所有事情时常常会感到紧张和焦虑。

So I thought it'd be awesome just to dive into the stuff that you've uncovered about how we can become less nervous and less anxious.

所以我认为深入研究你发现的关于我们如何变得不那么紧张和焦虑的东西就太棒了。

Before we get into the meat of it, I'd love to just spend a couple minutes just getting a sense of why you got into this stuff.

在我们深入探讨它的实质之前，我想花几分钟来了解一下您为什么要进入这个领域。

What actually got you to spend so much of your energy and life force trying to understand how the nervous system works, how to get people to be less nervous and anxious.

到底是什么让你花费如此多的精力和生命力来试图了解神经系统是如何工作的，如何让人们不那么紧张和焦虑。

Jonny Miller: My story starts in I kind of have a background in tech.

Jonny Miller：我的故事始于我有科技背景。

I had a startup, we went through Techstars back in 2012.

我有一家初创公司，我们在 2012 年就参加了 Techstars。

About five and a half years into that experience, I went through burnout, which is pretty common in the startup world, but that actually wasn't the trigger for me.

大约五年半的经历后，我经历了倦怠，这在创业界很常见，但这实际上并不是我的触发因素。

I find that usually people that get into this type of work, there's some kind of catalyst or some kind of challenging life event.

我发现通常从事此类工作的人都会受到某种催化剂或某种具有挑战性的生活事件的影响。

And for me, that was October 23rd, 2017, and my fiance at the time had an anxiety attack and she took her own life.

对我来说，那是 2017 年 10 月 23 日，我当时的未婚夫焦虑症发作，她结束了自己的生命。

And that completely just destroyed me at the time.

当时那完全摧毁了我。

And I realized that I'd been so disconnected from my body and my emotions, and it sent me on this five plus year journey to discover all of this inner landscape that I'd been numb from the neck down, and I went into breathwork meditation retreats, did hundreds of breathwork journeys, researched with a breath lab over in Bali, and basically just kind of directed all of my focus and attention onto understanding this inner landscape that I'd been pretty much oblivious to.

我意识到我与自己的身体和情绪是如此脱节，这让我踏上了五年多的旅程，去发现所有这些我从脖子以下麻木的内在景观，然后我进入了呼吸冥想静修，进行了数百次呼吸之旅，在巴厘岛的呼吸实验室进行了研究，基本上只是将我所有的注意力和注意力都集中在理解这个我几乎没有注意到的内在景观上。

And since then, I've been working with founders, executives, running courses and teaching what I'm learning and hopefully still researching at the same time as well.

从那时起，我一直与创始人、高管合作，开设课程并教授我所学到的知识，并希望同时还能进行研究。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

And I imagine the thinking was that if your wife had these skills, she would've had another path.

我想，如果你的妻子拥有这些技能，她就会有另一条路。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, that was definitely part of it, yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的，这绝对是其中的一部分，是的。

And also just since realizing how many people are struggling with anxiety, depression, all of this kind of constellation of mental health challenges both in the workplace and at home as well.

而且刚刚意识到有多少人在工作场所和家庭中都在与焦虑、抑郁以及所有这些心理健康挑战作斗争。

And yeah, it's been a very rewarding journey.

是的，这是一次非常有意义的旅程。

Lenny: All right, this episode's already gotten very heavy and I'm sucked in.

莱尼：好吧，这一集已经变得很沉重了，我已经被吸引住了。

I'm excited to learn all these things that you've uncovered.

我很高兴了解您发现的所有这些事情。

So let's just get into the meat of it.

那么让我们来看看它的实质内容吧。

Just talk about this kind of general method that you've found for how to help people become less nervous and anxious.

只要谈谈你发现的这种帮助人们减少紧张和焦虑的通用方法即可。

Jonny Miller: So I find this top down, bottom up distinction to be incredibly helpful.

乔尼·米勒：所以我发现这种自上而下、自下而上的区别非常有帮助。

Most people when they try to calm down, they use tactical reframes or maybe mindfulness or maybe reframing the situation in a positive light.

大多数人当他们试图冷静下来时，他们会使用战术重新构建，或者可能是正念，或者可能是从积极的角度重新构建局势。

There's lots of different practices that people use which do have some effect.

人们使用了许多不同的做法，但确实产生了一定的效果。

But in my experience, working with the physiology, using what's known as a bottom up approach, primarily using the breath, although there's also other approaches that you can use, it's just such a rapidly more effective way of shifting your state.

但根据我的经验，利用生理学，使用所谓的自下而上的方法，主要是使用呼吸，尽管你还可以使用其他方法，但这只是一种快速更有效地改变你的状态的方法。

Jonny Miller: And to give a little bit of context and maybe some science as well, we have what's known as afferent and efferent neurons going up and down our body, and there's four times more afferent neurons going from the body to the brain as from the brain to the body.

乔尼·米勒：为了提供一些背景知识，也许还有一些科学知识，我们的身体有传入和传出神经元，从身体到大脑的传入神经元数量是从大脑到身体的四倍。

So you can almost imagine there's a super highway of traffic of information going up to the brain and four times less going from the brain to the body.

所以你几乎可以想象有一条信息流量的超级高速公路到达大脑，而从大脑到身体的信息流量却减少了四倍。

And so by learning how to pull on the levers of our physiology, we can rapidly change our state.

因此，通过学习如何利用我们的生理杠杆，我们可以迅速改变我们的状态。

And then from there, by changing our state, that impacts the thoughts and feelings that we have.

然后从那里开始，通过改变我们的状态，会影响我们的想法和感受。

So instead of trying to change the story or trying to fix something or trying to solve something, which is what most people do by default, myself included in the past, if you change your state first, then there's a cascading effect which changes your thoughts and your feelings.

因此，不要试图改变故事或试图修复某些事情或试图解决某些问题，这是大多数人（包括我自己）默认所做的事情，如果你首先改变你的状态，那么就会产生连锁效应，改变你的想法和感受。

Lenny: Okay, amazing.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

Yeah, and just to share how I felt when I was reading this and try to understand this approach is whenever I get nervous, there's always this like, oh, my body's starting to feel anxious.

是的，只是分享我在阅读本文时的感受，并尝试理解这种方法，每当我感到紧张时，总会有这样的感觉，哦，我的身体开始感到焦虑。

And then I think of a reason.

然后我想到了一个理由。

Oftentimes, I don't know why it gets nervous, why my body's starting to create this feeling of anxiety.

很多时候，我不知道为什么会变得紧张，为什么我的身体开始产生这种焦虑感。

And then I often realize I'm just now trying to just explain why it happened, "Oh, I have this big meeting coming up, or I have this podcast episode I'm nervous about, or I'm not going to make a deadline for my newsletter." I often experience this where it's just like, "Oh, something feels nervous." And then, "Okay, here's the explanation." So maybe just along those lines, what else is there that might be helpful for people to think about in this context?

然后我经常意识到我现在只是想解释为什么会发生这种情况，“哦，我要召开一个大型会议，或者我对这个播客节目感到紧张，或者我不会为我的时事通讯设定最后期限。”我经常经历这种感觉，就像“哦，有些事情让人感到紧张。”然后，“好吧，这是解释。”因此，也许沿着这些思路，在这种情况下还有什么可能对人们的思考有帮助呢？

Jonny Miller: I mean, I think it's helpful to understand the process by which, by changing the way that we breathe, for example, it shifts our physiological state and changes our nervous system.

乔尼·米勒：我的意思是，我认为了解这个过程是有帮助的，例如，通过改变我们的呼吸方式，它会改变我们的生理状态并改变我们的神经系统。

So if you're listening to this, maybe you, Lenny, you can try this as well.

所以如果你正在听这个，也许你，莱尼，你也可以尝试一下。

If you start breathing into your upper chest and shallow fairly, fairly rapid, maybe even through the mouth, that will then there's a part of your brain called the insular cortex, which is basically constantly spying on the way that we're breathing and it will register that change, it will then send information to activate the endocrine system, which then creates shift in our blood chemistry.

如果你开始用上胸部呼吸，相当浅，相当快，甚至可能通过嘴，那么你大脑的一部分称为岛叶皮层，它基本上不断地监视我们呼吸的方式，它会记录这种变化，然后它会发送信息来激活内分泌系统，从而导致我们的血液化学物质发生变化。

The sympathetic nervous system gets activated and that increase in adrenaline and cortisol starts to flood your body.

交感神经系统被激活，肾上腺素和皮质醇的增加开始充斥你的身体。

Everyone's probably very familiar with that feeling.

这种感觉想必大家都非常熟悉。

And then that will then have a cascading impact on the thoughts that you're having and the way that you feel.

然后这将对你的想法和感受产生连锁反应。

And so you just shared, we have a tendency to kind of confabulate or make up stories that match the state that we are in.

所以你刚才分享了，我们倾向于闲聊或编造符合我们所处状态的故事。

And so that's kind of what happens when we're breathing in that way.

这就是当我们以这种方式呼吸时会发生的情况。

And then you can also consciously change your breath to breathe in a different way, which has the reverse effects, which I can go into, but I'll pause there.

然后你也可以有意识地改变你的呼吸，以不同的方式呼吸，这会产生相反的效果，我可以详细讨论，但我会在这里暂停。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So I think one of the big actionable takeaways here is that instead of trying to convince yourself, "No, this talk is going to go great, I don't need to worry about how I'm going to look in this meeting." Basically instead of going top down, trying to calm your body through thought, your advice is calm your body first because then your mind will notice, "Hey, I'm actually not as nervous as I thought.

因此，我认为这里最重要的可操作要点之一是，不要试图说服自己，“不，这次演讲会很顺利，我不需要担心我在这次会议上的表现。”基本上，你的建议不是自上而下，试图通过思想让你的身体平静下来，而是首先让你的身体平静下来，因为然后你的头脑会注意到，“嘿，我实际上并不像我想象的那么紧张。

Maybe things are going to be okay." Is that right?

也许事情会好起来的。”是这样吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, precisely.

乔尼·米勒：是的，正是如此。

And I mean I've used this myself many times before presentations.

我的意思是，在演讲之前我自己已经多次使用过这个方法。

I gave a TEDx talk a few years ago and I was like my entire body, I was just terrified.

几年前，我在 TEDx 上做了一次演讲，当时我的整个身体都感到害怕。

And I did in 15 minutes of this breathing practice before and walked on stage almost cool as a cucumber.

我之前做了15分钟的呼吸练习，走上舞台时几乎像黄瓜一样冷静。

It's very effective.

这非常有效。

Lenny: Sounds too good to be true.

莱尼：听起来好得令人难以置信。

But we're going to do some of these exercises for people.

但我们将为人们做一些练习。

Before we get into, why is it that breath specifically so powerful?

在我们进入之前，为什么那股气息特别强大？

It feels like such a strange thing to work so well, just this idea of breathing in a different way.

工作得这么好感觉就像是一件奇怪的事情，只是以不同的方式呼吸的想法。

You talked a bit about this, I forget what you called it, that kind of watches how you're breathing.

你谈过一些这个，我忘了你叫它什么，它可以观察你的呼吸方式。

But I guess what else can you share about just why is breath so effective in changing our state?

但我想你还能分享一下为什么呼吸对改变我们的状态如此有效吗？

Jonny Miller: Sure.

乔尼·米勒：当然。

Well, it's one of the few things which happens automatically, but we can also control it consciously.

嗯，这是少数自动发生的事情之一，但我们也可以有意识地控制它。

And so what scientists have discovered that when the exhale is twice as long as the inhale, it has a calming effect.

科学家发现，当呼气时间是吸气时间的两倍时，具有镇静作用。

And when the inhale is either more intense or twice as long as the exhale, it has an activating effect.

当吸气强度比呼气强度大或两倍时，它就会产生激活作用。

So you can kind of think of this as an up or down lever on the nervous system.

所以你可以将其视为神经系统的上行或下行杠杆。

Lenny: You also have this really clever way of describing this system.

莱尼：你也用这种非常聪明的方式来描述这个系统。

You call it state over story, essentially focusing on the state of your body versus the story you're telling yourself.

你称之为“状态优于故事”，本质上是关注你的身体状态与你自己讲述的故事。

Is that the way to think about it?

是这样思考的吗？

And can you just talk about that concept?

您能谈谈这个概念吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so it's basically a shorthand for what we've just been talking about, which is most people tend to approach the problem or try to solve things on the level of story.

乔尼·米勒：是的，所以这基本上是我们刚才讨论的内容的简写，即大多数人倾向于在故事层面上解决问题或尝试解决问题。

So there's multiple ways you can do that through the breath as we just talked about.

正如我们刚才谈到的，有多种方法可以通过呼吸来做到这一点。

You can also defocus your gaze and kind of relax your eyes, and that has a similar effect.

你也可以散焦你的目光，放松你的眼睛，这也有类似的效果。

It can expand your awareness and kind of bring your awareness to behind you and the sides of you and below you, or you can breathe in these ways which emphasize the exhale.

它可以扩展你的意识，并将你的意识带到你的身后、你的两侧和你的下方，或者你可以以这些强调呼气的方式呼吸。

And so when we breathe in a way with say the exhale twice as long as the inhale, that part of the brain, the insular cortex then sends signals to the parasympathetic nervous system, which then has the cascading effect on our endocrine system and calms us down.

因此，当我们以某种方式呼吸时，比如呼气时间是吸气时间的两倍，大脑的这一部分，岛叶皮层就会向副交感神经系统发送信号，然后对我们的内分泌系统产生连锁反应，使我们平静下来。

And what I usually find as well is that the kind of reactive thoughts and feelings that we have when we are in that kind of anxious loop, they can be self-reinforcing.

我通常还发现，当我们处于那种焦虑循环中时，我们所产生的反应性想法和感受可以自我强化。

And so if someone has a thought of like, "Oh no, I'm nervous before this important presentation." Then that exacerbates the breathing pattern and then the whole thing just goes into this spiral, which can end up in full-blown panic attacks if there's not an intervention of some sorts.

因此，如果有人有这样的想法：“哦，不，在这个重要的演讲之前我很紧张。”然后，这会加剧呼吸模式，然后整个事情就会陷入螺旋式上升，如果没有某种干预，最终可能会导致全面的恐慌发作。

Lenny: Yeah, that's what I find with my nerves.

莱尼：是的，这就是我用我的神经发现的。

I hate talking on stage.

我讨厌在舞台上讲话。

I get nervous before every podcast.

每次播客之前我都会感到紧张。

This is not my natural state.

这不是我的自然状态。

Jonny Miller: Is that still the case with podcast today?

乔尼·米勒：今天的播客仍然是这样吗？

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

And it's like different levels of nervousness, but it's always just like, "Oh, there we go." I'm not a performer person.

这就像不同程度的紧张，但总是就像，“哦，我们开始了。”我不是一个表演者。

Even I kind of push myself to do this podcast as a way to get better at this, to be honest.

老实说，就连我也强迫自己做这个播客，以此作为在这方面做得更好的一种方式。

So it's still a thing that I think about.

所以这仍然是我思考的一个问题。

And what I find is the nervousness comes from exactly what you described is the nervousness of being nervous.

我发现紧张正是来自于你所描述的紧张的紧张。

I don't know, there's no reason specifically to be anxious, but I don't know how I'll be once I do the thing.

我不知道，没有理由特别焦虑，但我不知道一旦我做了这件事我会怎么样。

So it's nervous of what it might look like or end up being like.

所以它对它可能会是什么样子或最终会是什么样子感到紧张。

So that's exactly what I ran into.

这正是我遇到的情况。

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

And there's obviously people say mindfulness, meditation, things like that, that can increase the psychological space between stimulus and response.

显然有人说正念、冥想之类的东西可以增加刺激和反应之间的心理空间。

And that is something that obviously does help over the long term, but it's in my opinion, nowhere near as rapid and effective and efficient as just changing the way that you're breathing.

从长远来看，这显然确实有帮助，但在我看来，它远没有改变呼吸方式那么迅速、有效和高效。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So let's get into it.

那么让我们开始吧。

I know you have a couple exercises specifically for this, and then we'll go from there.

我知道你有几个专门为此做的练习，然后我们就从那里开始。

Jonny Miller: We can stack a few of the exercises and I'll try and keep it to a minute or so.

乔尼·米勒：我们可以叠加一些练习，我会尽量保持一分钟左右。

So yeah, if you want to get comfy in your chair and sit up straight, feel your butt on the seat, and I find it helpful to kind of be aware of the space behind you and above you as well, kind of expanding your awareness so that you are aware of the space behind to the sides and above.

所以，是的，如果你想在椅子上感到舒服并坐直，感觉你的屁股在座位上，我发现意识到你后面和你上面的空间是有帮助的，扩大你的意识，这样你就能意识到后面到两侧和上面的空间。

Lenny: And should we close your eyes?

莱尼：那我们应该闭上你的眼睛吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, and close your eyes down.

乔尼·米勒：是的，然后闭上眼睛。

If you're listening and driving, obviously don't do that.

如果你边听边开车，显然不要这样做。

But yeah, closing the eyes down for sure helps.

但是，是的，闭上眼睛肯定有帮助。

And now we're just going to do simple breath.

现在我们要做简单的呼吸。

We're going to inhale in through the nose for four.

我们将通过鼻子吸气四次。

We're going to hold the breath at the top for four, and we're going to exhale for eight, and then we're going to repeat.

我们将在最高点屏住呼吸四次，然后呼气八次，然后重复。

So let the breath go and inhaling through the nose.

因此，放开呼吸并通过鼻子吸气。

Inhale, 2, 3, 4, hold the breath, 2, 3, 4.

吸气，2、3、4，屏住呼吸，2、3、4。

And exhale, 8, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

然后呼气，8、2、3、4、5、6、7、8。

Inhale, 2, 3, 4, hold the breath, 2, 3, 4, and exhale, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

吸气，2,3,4，屏住呼吸，2,3,4，呼气，2,3,4,5,6,7,8。

And now you can let go of the breath completely and we'll end with one round of humming, which is surprisingly effect of it calming as well.

现在你可以完全放开呼吸，我们将以一轮嗡嗡声结束，这也是令人惊讶的平静效果。

So take a full breath in and humming through the nose all the way to the end of exhale.

因此，充分吸气，并通过鼻子发出嗡嗡声，直到呼气结束。

Let out a sigh if that feels good and open up your eyes.

如果感觉不错，请叹一口气，然后睁开眼睛。

Lenny: I feel extremely calm.

莱尼：我感觉非常平静。

I should do this every podcast episode before we start.

我应该在每个播客节目开始之前都这样做。

Jonny Miller: A note on the humming.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：关于嗡嗡声的注释。

It also releases nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator, and that helps to create that kind of calming effect and it also reduces eye tension as well.

它还释放一氧化氮，这是一种血管扩张剂，有助于产生镇静效果，还可以减轻眼睛紧张。

So I'll do it if I've been looking to screen for too long.

所以，如果我已经看屏幕太久了，我就会这样做。

It's really good for kind of reducing eye fatigue as well.

它对于减少眼睛疲劳也确实有好处。

Lenny: And there's also a vagus nerve component to it because your body's vibrating, is that true?

莱尼：还有迷走神经成分，因为你的身体在振动，是真的吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, precisely.

乔尼·米勒：是的，正是如此。

So it kind of tones or stimulates the vagus nerve, which stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system.

所以它会调节或刺激迷走神经，从而刺激副交感神经系统。

Lenny: What's your advice for doing this?

莱尼：你对此有何建议？

Is this before you go into a big meeting or a presentation?

这是在您参加大型会议或演示之前吗？

How do you apply this?

你如何应用这个？

Jonny Miller: I kind of like to share building a toolkit of different practices that are appropriate for different contexts.

Jonny Miller：我有点喜欢分享构建适合不同环境的不同实践的工具包。

So something like the 4, 4, 8 breathing, you could do pretty much anywhere without anyone necessarily noticing.

所以像 4、4、8 次呼吸这样的动作，你几乎可以在任何地方做，而不会有人注意到。

Humming is slightly more obvious, but if you're about to jump on a zoom or something, you can totally do it with your eyes closed.

嗡嗡声稍微明显一些，但如果你要跳到变焦或其他什么东西，你完全可以闭上眼睛来完成。

Things like expanding your awareness or bringing your awareness down to your feet and your hands, which creates a kind of grounding calming effect that also you can do if you're in a busy room.

比如扩大你的意识或将你的意识降低到你的脚和手上，这会产生一种接地的平静效果，如果你在一个繁忙的房间里，你也可以这样做。

Maybe you have social anxiety, even orienting and labeling things that you are hearing and feeling, kind of bringing the awareness and attention back into the body that also has an effect.

也许你有社交焦虑，甚至对你所听到和感受到的事物进行定向和标记，这将意识和注意力带回身体，这也会产生影响。

And then there's longer practices for say, non-sleep deep rests, belly breathing, things that you can do if you have 10, 20 minutes and you're at home and you want a downshift.

然后还有更长时间的练习，比如非睡眠深度休息、腹式呼吸，如果你有 10 到 20 分钟的时间，并且你在家并且想要降档，你可以做这些事情。

Jonny Miller: So I like to kind of give people a big toolkit to see what works for them and then cherry-pick which ones are suitable to different situations.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：所以我喜欢给人们一个大的工具包，看看什么对他们有用，然后挑选适合不同情况的工具包。

And another way that I think about this is, I call it, if this, then breathe.

我思考这个问题的另一种方式是，我称之为，如果是这样，那么呼吸。

So it's like if I feel overwhelmed, then I do the humming.

所以，如果我感到不知所措，我就会哼唱。

If I feel anxious, then I do 4, 4, 8 breathing or alternate nostril breathing and kind of having my own little recipe set that I have for different context is really helpful and I work with people to kind of build those toolkits themselves.

如果我感到焦虑，那么我会进行 4、4、8 次呼吸或交替鼻孔呼吸，并且针对不同情况制定自己的小配方确实很有帮助，而且我与人们合作，自己构建这些工具包。

Lenny: This sounds like it needs to be a website where people can go with these lists of if this, then that is there a place that we could send people in the show notes and if not, you should make one before we go live.

莱尼：这听起来像是一个网站，人们可以在其中查看这些列表，如果是这样，那么我们可以在一个地方向人们发送演出笔记，如果没有，您应该在我们上线之前制作一个。

Jonny Miller: There is not currently.

乔尼·米勒：目前没有。

It's part of the curriculum in the course that I have, but-

这是我课程的一部分，但是-

Jonny Miller: ...

乔尼·米勒：……

I can maybe see if I can spin one up as well, but yeah.

我也许可以看看是否也可以旋转一个，但是是的。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

We'll link to the course if nothing else.

如果没有别的事，我们将链接到该课程。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Lenny: Along this line of calming breath exercise, Huberman also has a different version, which I've tried and I'm going to do both now.

莱尼：沿着平静呼吸练习的思路，胡伯曼也有一个不同的版本，我已经尝试过，现在我打算同时进行。

You breathe in fully and then you breathe in a little bit more.

你充分吸气，然后再吸气一点。

I imagine you've seen that piece of advice?

我想你已经看过这条建议了？

Jonny Miller: That's also fantastic.

乔尼·米勒：那也太棒了。

He calls it the physiological sigh, and it's both very effective, especially if you just have five seconds and you just take a full sigh, it's great.

他称之为生理叹息，这两种方法都非常有效，特别是如果你只有五秒钟的时间，并且你只是深深地叹了一口气，那就太棒了。

I'd also add that the sigh happens naturally as a result of doing these downshifting practices.

我还要补充一点，叹息是由于进行这些降档练习而自然发生的。

So if you notice after you do let's say the 4, 4, 8 breathing, at the end, you might naturally just want to let out a sigh, and that's a signal that your body is naturally downshifting.

因此，如果您在完成 4、4、8 次呼吸后注意到，最后您可能会自然而然地只想叹一口气，这是您的身体自然减速的信号。

Or if you are with a friend and you feel just comfortable and relaxed, then your body might sigh.

或者，如果您和朋友在一起，而您感到舒适和放松，那么您的身体可能会叹息。

And it's something that we do a lot and as you say, you can consciously do it and that will help as well.

这是我们经常做的事情，正如你所说，你可以有意识地这样做，这也会有所帮助。

That's another one of the practices.

这是另一种做法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So link to that.

所以链接到那个。

And I think throughout this episode, as you said, we're going to give people a bunch of tools that they can use, and it feels like some are in the moment, "I need to feel calmer right now.

我认为在这一集里，正如你所说，我们将为人们提供一堆他们可以使用的工具，感觉有些人此时此刻，“我现在需要感到更平静。

Here's a thing you could do." And then there's things you can do ongoing that build...

这是你可以做的一件事。”然后你可以继续做一些事情来构建......

I guess another way to think about it's just make your body more calm as a baseline of practice to work on there.

我想另一种思考方式就是让你的身体更加平静，作为练习的基准。

Lenny: Awesome, okay.

莱尼：太棒了，好吧。

I think the other breathing exercise we're going to do is the opposite.

我认为我们要做的另一个呼吸练习是相反的。

Gets you all excited, is that right?

让大家兴奋不已，是吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, sure.

乔尼·米勒：是的，当然。

We can do that as well.

我们也可以这样做。

I call this espresso breath.

我称之为浓缩咖啡呼吸。

So this is the opposite.

所以这是相反的。

This is very activating.

这是非常活跃的。

I would only recommend this if you're feeling lethargic or maybe instead of drinking a coffee in the afternoon, you could do this for a minute or so.

如果您感到昏昏欲睡，或者您可以这样做一分钟左右，而不是在下午喝咖啡，我只会建议您这样做。

In the scientific literature, it's bellows breath or breath of fire, and it basically looks like a series of rapid exhales through the nose.

在科学文献中，它是风箱呼吸或火焰呼吸，基本上看起来像是通过鼻子进行的一系列快速呼气。

I like to keep it through the nose only if you do it through the mouth, it can be very too activating and it can kind of overwhelm people.

我喜欢只通过鼻子，如果你通过嘴做的话，它可能会非常活跃，而且会让人不知所措。

Obviously, there's the Wim Hof practice that I'm sure many people are familiar with.

显然，我相信很多人都熟悉 Wim Hof 的做法。

So this is a more gentle version of...

所以这是一个更温和的版本...

If Wim Hof is like Red Bull, this is kind of like a small coffee.

如果 Wim Hof 就像红牛，那么这有点像一杯小咖啡。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

And you call it the espresso breath, espresso breath.

你称之为浓缩咖啡呼吸，浓缩咖啡呼吸。

Lenny: So yeah, that's a good metaphor there.

莱尼：是的，这是一个很好的比喻。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的，是的。

So yeah, let's do it.

所以，是的，让我们开始吧。

So again, kind of sit up straight, and this time you want to be pumping the breath from your lower belly and you pump the breath on the exhale.

再次，坐直，这一次你要从下腹部吸气，并在呼气时吸气。

So I'll demonstrate it briefly.

所以我将简要地演示一下。

It's like breathe in.

就像吸气一样。

Okay.

好的。

So yeah, take a full breath in and begin.: And let go.

所以，是的，深吸一口气并开始。：然后放手。

And full breath in.

并充分吸气。

And sigh on the exhale.

并叹气。

I already feel a little bit tingly.

我已经感觉有点刺痛了。

Lenny: I'm energized.

莱尼：我精力充沛。

Let's do this.

让我们这样做吧。

Go, go, go, go.

走，走，走，走。

That was great.

那很棒。

Okay, look at that.

好吧，看看那个。

We're back to where we started with the full circle of energy.

我们又回到了能量完整循环的起点。

That was great.

那很棒。

Lenny: And then how long do you recommend doing that one for?

莱尼：那么你建议这样做多长时间？

Jonny Miller: So it kind of depends on how activating you find it, but I usually find 30 breaths per round and then take a breath, have a long pause on the exhale, and then if you want to do another round or two.

Jonny Miller：所以这取决于你如何激活它，但我通常每轮进行 30 次呼吸，然后深吸一口气，呼气时停顿很长时间，然后如果你想再做一两轮。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And the cases where this might be helpful is maybe you're about to give a big talk, I guess in a talk you both want energy and want calm, so that's kind of complicated.

这可能会有所帮助的情况是，也许你要发表一场大演讲，我想在演讲中你既想要活力又想要平静，所以这有点复杂。

Jonny Miller: Especially if you are meetings early in the morning and you haven't quite got going yet, you can do the espresso breath to begin with and that activates you.

Jonny Miller：特别是如果你一大早就要开会，而且还没有完全开始，你可以先喝一口浓缩咖啡，这会激活你。

And then do some of the downshifting practices to kind of ground and stabilize that aliveness.

然后进行一些降速练习，以稳定这种活力。

Lenny: Are there any other tactical breathing exercises that are worth doing real quick?

莱尼：还有其他值得快速进行的战术呼吸练习吗？

I know we'll get into some longer practices and deeper stuff, but is there anything else that would be helpful here?

我知道我们会进行一些更长的练习和更深入的内容，但是还有什么其他的东西会有帮助吗？

Jonny Miller: No, I think we've covered the bases.

乔尼·米勒：不，我认为我们已经了解了基础。

I don't want to overwhelm people too much.

我不想让人们承受太多压力。

Lenny: Just as a takeaway, there's these two techniques.

Lenny：作为一个要点，有这两种技术。

One to help you get more calm when you need to be calm in the moment.

当您需要保持冷静时，它可以帮助您变得更加平静。

The other is to get energy.

另一个是获取能量。

And then I guess are these things that you recommend doing ongoing to build this muscle in your body or are these mostly for you need this now in the moment and it's not worth just doing a few times a day even when you're fine?

然后我想你建议持续做这些事情来增强你体内的肌肉，或者这些主要是因为你现在需要这些，而且即使你身体状况良好，每天做几次也不值得？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, great question.

乔尼·米勒：是的，很好的问题。

So I like to recommend both a morning practice, particularly to build the muscle of just doing it and getting used to it.

所以我喜欢推荐早上的练习，特别是为了锻炼肌肉并习惯它。

So maybe five minutes in the morning before you start work, before breakfast, something like that.

所以也许是早上开始工作前、早餐前等五分钟。

And then you are more likely to remember that you have access to that in the moment because usually the challenge is that when someone is in that flustered state, remembering to do the practice is often the last thing that comes to mind.

然后你就更有可能记住你现在可以进行练习，因为通常的挑战是，当某人处于那种慌乱的状态时，记住进行练习通常是最后想到的事情。

So by having a deliberate practice for at least 7 to 10 days and so that you get the hang of it, then it feels much more natural to do it when you're feeling.

因此，通过至少 7 到 10 天的刻意练习，掌握窍门，然后当你有感觉时就会感觉更自然。

That's kind of like playing the game on hard mode when you are really stressed and anxious, that's when you need it the most, but it's also when you're least likely to remember to do it.

这有点像当你真的感到压力和焦虑时在困难模式下玩游戏，那就是你最需要它的时候，但也是你最不可能记得这样做的时候。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so the first exercise to calm you down is essentially breathe in four seconds, hold it for four seconds, breathe out slowly for eight seconds and do that for about 30 seconds, is that right?

好吧，让你平静下来的第一个练习本质上是四秒钟呼吸，屏住四秒钟，慢慢呼气八秒钟，然后持续大约 30 秒，对吗？

Or for a minute?

或者一分钟？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, I'd say for at least a minute or two.

乔尼·米勒：是的，我想说至少一两分钟。

We kind of did a shorter version.

我们做了一个较短的版本。

I'll also add that the important thing is that the exhale is twice as long as the inhale.

我还要补充一点，重要的是呼气时间是吸气时间的两倍。

So if exhaling for eight is too long, you could do 3, 3, 6 or even 2, 2, 4 or even 5, 5, 10 depending on your lung capacity essentially and your CO2 tolerance.

因此，如果呼气 8 次太长，您可以呼气 3、3、6 次，甚至 2、2、4 次，甚至 5、5、10 次，具体取决于您的肺活量和二氧化碳耐受力。

Lenny: Okay, good to know.

莱尼：好的，很高兴知道。

And then the espresso breath, when you need energy or you just kind of pump air out of your belly through your nose and you do that for how long would you recommend?

然后是浓缩咖啡呼吸，当您需要能量或者您只是通过鼻子将空气从腹部泵出时，您会建议这样做多长时间？

Jonny Miller: Two to three rounds of 30 pumps, yeah.

Jonny Miller：两到三轮，每轮 30 次，是的。

Lenny: And again, the reason this is effective and powerful is coming back to your original big insight that our state is driven by what our body is doing and our mind often explains what we're feeling based on what our body's doing.

莱尼：再说一次，这种方法有效且强大的原因是回到你最初的大洞察力，即我们的状态是由我们的身体正在做的事情驱动的，而我们的思想通常会根据我们身体正在做的事情来解释我们的感受。

So that if you can change the state of your body and become less nervous in your body, your mind will be like, "All right, everything's fine."

因此，如果你能改变你的身体状态，让你的身体变得不那么紧张，你的想法就会是，“好吧，一切都很好。”

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

And maybe something that we haven't touched on yet, but I think is important to add in is this idea of interoception or somatic awareness.

也许我们还没有触及，但我认为重要的是要补充的是内感受或躯体意识的想法。

And the reason I bring it in is because if you do this practice but you're not really aware of your body and how you feel, then it'll be less compelling to you.

我引入它的原因是因为如果你进行这种练习但你并没有真正意识到你的身体和你的感受，那么它对你来说就不那么有吸引力了。

But if you're kind of tuned into like sensations in your body, what's going on, you're more likely to notice the difference in the shifts.

但如果你能适应身体的类似感觉，了解正在发生的事情，你就更有可能注意到转变的差异。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

So let's get into that.

那么让我们开始吧。

That was something I definitely wanted to touch on here.

这是我绝对想在这里谈及的事情。

This awesome acronym to help you with this process of interoception.

这个很棒的缩写可以帮助你完成这个内感受过程。

So talk about what that is and then how to actually go about becoming better at being aware of what your body's doing.

因此，谈谈这是什么，然后如何真正更好地了解您的身体在做什么。

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

So it's this idea of interoception, which is known as our sixth sense, and basically it's our ability to sense, track and feel our internal landscape.

这就是内感受的概念，被称为我们的第六感，基本上是我们感知、跟踪和感受我们内部景观的能力。

And I like to use the metaphor of a chef in the same way that you train your flavor palette for kind of sweet, spicy, umami, things like that.

我喜欢用厨师的比喻，就像你训练你的口味调色板一样甜，辣，鲜味，类似的东西。

You can also train your interoceptive palette and become more aware of the internal sensations, whether that's your breath, whether it's tension, whether it's moods and emotions, whether it's the quality of your awareness, the quality of your thoughts.

你还可以训练你的内感受调色板，更加了解内部感觉，无论是你的呼吸，无论是紧张，无论是心情和情绪，无论是你的意识质量，你的思想质量。

And the more kind of in tune with that you are, the more likely you are to notice the kind of early warning signs of something like anxiety.

你越能适应这种情况，你就越有可能注意到焦虑等早期预警信号。

Because usually, certainly a panic attack doesn't come out of nowhere.

因为通常情况下，惊恐发作肯定不会凭空而来。

There will be a kind of cascade of subtle things that happen in your body that eventually result in anxiety.

你的身体会发生一系列微妙的事情，最终导致焦虑。

And so if you can catch those things early and kind of nip them in the bud and do one of these practices, then you can avoid the kind of 10 out of 10 worst case scenarios.

因此，如果你能及早发现这些问题，将其消灭在萌芽状态，并进行其中一项实践，那么你就可以避免出现十分之十的最坏情况。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

So I know that there's also specific things you recommend people pay attention to, to understand what their body is doing in this process of inter...

所以我知道你还建议人们注意一些具体的事情，以了解他们的身体在这个过程中正在做什么......

Jonny Miller: As opposed to exteroception, which is awareness of all the external stimuli.

乔尼·米勒：与外感受相反，外感受是对所有外部刺激的认识。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

I guess before we even get to that, so you mentioned that it's another sense we have, and I think that's a really important point that I think maybe people didn't catch.

我想在我们讨论这个之前，你提到这是我们有的另一种感觉，我认为这是一个非常重要的观点，我认为人们可能没有意识到。

So we have these five senses, obviously taste and smell and vision and touch.

所以我们有这五种感官，显然是味觉、嗅觉、视觉和触觉。

But you're finding and research showed basically this is another sense people don't really know we have.

但你的发现和研究表明，基本上这是另一种人们并不真正知道我们拥有的感觉。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, exactly.

乔尼·米勒：是的，完全正确。

And it has been studies quite a lot, especially in the last decade or so.

人们对此进行了大量研究，特别是在过去十年左右的时间里。

And there's a number of interesting findings from the research that I found.

我的研究发现了许多有趣的发现。

One being that ADHD tends to correlate with low levels of interoception, as does if people have PTSD or trauma.

其中之一是多动症往往与低水平的内感受相关，就像患有创伤后应激障碍或创伤的人一样。

Again, interoception is lowered.

内感受再次降低。

And I'd certainly say for myself, for the first 25 years of my life, I was fairly numb from the neck down.

我当然可以对自己说，在我生命的前 25 年里，我从脖子以下都相当麻木。

I was not very aware to what was happening in my body in real time.

我不太清楚我的身体实时发生了什么。

I was also reading a book recently called The Hour Between Dog and Wolf, which looked at Wall Street traders and they correlated higher degrees of interception with basically making more money and making better decisions.

我最近还读了一本名为《狗与狼之间的时刻》的书，这本书着眼于华尔街交易员，他们将更高程度的拦截基本上与赚更多钱和做出更好的决策联系起来。

And I think the thesis was that by tuning into what their body was doing in certain moments, they could pick up on things more intuitive decision making essentially.

我认为论文的主题是，通过调整他们的身体在某些时刻所做的事情，他们可以本质上更直观地做出决策。

Lenny: So I think there's a specific list of things that you recommend people pay attention to, their posture, their breath, things like that.

莱尼：所以我认为你建议人们注意一些具体的事情，他们的姿势，他们的呼吸，诸如此类的事情。

What is that list and then how do we actually do this better?

该列表是什么？我们如何才能更好地做到这一点？

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

So I simplify this to APE, which basically is an acronym which stands for awareness, posture, and emotion.

所以我将其简化为 APE，它基本上是代表意识、姿势和情感的缩写。

So to kind of go through each one by one.

因此，我们将一一进行介绍。

Awareness is, to give an example, I could narrow my awareness and become really focused and just you kind of tense up and it also is quite activating sometimes or you can relax and expand your awareness and be aware of the space above me, the space behind me, the space below me.

举个例子，意识是，我可以缩小我的意识，变得真正专注，只是你有点紧张，有时它也很活跃，或者你可以放松并扩大你的意识，并意识到我上方的空间，我身后的空间，我下方的空间。

And that is generally a calming thing.

这通常是一件令人平静的事情。

Posture is fairly self-explanatory.

姿势是相当不言自明的。

But again, our posture affects how we feel.

但同样，我们的姿势会影响我们的感受。

You're shifting there now.

你现在要搬到那里了。

And then emotion, which I include somatic or body-based sensations which arise.

然后是情感，我包括出现的躯体或基于身体的感觉。

So both kind of what is the overall mood and the flavor or the texture that I'm feeling.

因此，我所感受到的整体情绪和味道或质地都是怎样的。

Like right now, maybe it's excitement, maybe there's some joy.

就像现在，也许是兴奋，也许还有一些喜悦。

I'm noticing there's some heat in my belly probably from the breathing.

我注意到我的腹部有一些热量，可能是呼吸引起的。

Yeah, there's a little bit of tightness in my lower back from working out yesterday.

是的，昨天锻炼后我的腰部有点紧绷。

So just sense kind of mapping that landscape of sensation.

所以只是感觉映射那种感觉的景观。

And for most people it's almost like it's like a .

对于大多数人来说，这几乎就像一个 .

You have those maps of and for a lot of people there's just these big kind blind spots in their body.

你有很多人的地图，他们的身体里都有这些大的盲点。

Lenny: And the advice here is, so there's this acronym APE and the advice is think about these three things when you're feeling something that you may not, basically something's going on slash just often come back to this.

莱尼：这里的建议是，所以有这个缩写词 APE，建议是当你感觉到你可能没有感觉到的东西时，考虑这三件事，基本上，某些事情正在发生，只是经常回到这一点。

I imagine just whenever you can think of, "Oh, APE: awareness, posture, emotion." Is that how to use this?

我想象只要你能想到“哦，APE：意识、姿势、情感”。这个的用法是这样吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, exactly.

乔尼·米勒：是的，完全正确。

So again, it can be something that you do before you start your day, maybe with a cup of tea.

再说一遍，这可以是你开始新的一天之前做的事情，也许是喝杯茶。

I like to drink tea and just do a body scan essentially and just check each of those three areas.

我喜欢喝茶，基本上只是进行身体扫描，然后检查这三个区域。

And it's really valuable, particularly if you are having racing thoughts or something doesn't feel quite right.

这真的很有价值，特别是当你思绪纷乱或感觉有些不对劲时。

Instead of just tackling the problem on the level of the mind dropping down into the body and bringing that into the picture as well, I find to be really helpful.

我发现这真的很有帮助，而不是仅仅在思想落入身体的层面上解决问题并将其带入画面中。

Lenny: Basically, as often as you can.

莱尼：基本上，尽可能多地进行。

And generally when things are feeling all off, just remember APE, where's my awareness?

一般来说，当事情感觉不太顺利时，请记住 APE，我的意识在哪里？

How's my posture?

我的姿势怎么样？

And then what am I feeling?

然后我感觉如何？

Am I feeling sad?

我感到悲伤吗？

Am I feeling happy, excited, angry?

我感到快乐、兴奋、愤怒吗？

Things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

I think you also talk about breath, like you have a list you wrote about this of other things that you might want to pay attention to.

我认为你也谈论了呼吸，就像你写了一份关于你可能想要注意的其他事情的清单。

Actually finding paying attention to what my breath is doing is really powerful too.

事实上，发现关注我的呼吸在做什么也非常强大。

So I'm going to try a BAPE version of this or I'm going to try to think about where's my breath coming from, what am I feeling there?

所以我会尝试 BAPE 版本，或者我会尝试思考我的呼吸从哪里来，我在那里感觉如何？

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

So the breath and sensations are two other ones that are really helpful.

所以呼吸和感觉是另外两个非常有帮助的。

The breath in particular, often people will...

尤其是呼吸，往往人们会...

There's an idea of email apnea when people are checking their emails, they will, without noticing it, start to hold their breath, which is generally a very activating thing to do.

有一种电子邮件呼吸暂停的想法，当人们检查电子邮件时，他们会在没有注意到的情况下开始屏住呼吸，这通常是一件非常令人兴奋的事情。

Or as I mentioned earlier, if your breath is through the mouth and shallow and into the upper chest, that will also be very activating versus is your breath through the nose?

或者正如我之前提到的，如果你的呼吸是通过嘴，浅浅地进入上胸部，那么与通过鼻子呼吸相比，这也会非常活跃？

Is it kind of into the belly and into the sides of the rib cage and does it feel easeful?

是否进入腹部和胸腔两侧，感觉轻松吗？

Basically, breathing without tension is ideal.

基本上，没有紧张的呼吸是理想的。

Lenny: What I think about using this practice is if I were sitting in a meeting and just not feeling amazingly confident, I just come back to this acronym, BAPE or APE, whichever one you want to choose, just like how am I feeling right now?

Lenny：我对使用这种做法的想法是，如果我坐在一个会议上，只是感觉不太自信，我就会回到这个缩写词，BAPE 或 APE，无论你想选择哪个，就像我现在感觉如何？

Oh wow, my whole stomach is clenched.

哇哦，我整个肚子都揪紧了。

I'm maybe nervous about what might happen or I'm not breathing at all, or my posture is really bad.

我可能对可能发生的事情感到紧张，或者我根本没有呼吸，或者我的姿势真的很糟糕。

So I think in a meeting would be really helpful Here, maybe you're about to get on a zoom or an important call or something like that.

所以我认为在会议中会非常有帮助在这里，也许你即将进行一次会议或一个重要的电话或类似的事情。

Maybe a one-on-one.

也许是一对一的。

Is there anything else, any other moments that kind of triggers for people of like, "Oh, I should really be aware of what's happening right now.

还有其他任何事情、任何其他时刻会触发人们这样的想法：“哦，我真的应该意识到现在正在发生的事情。

Let me do an APE exercise."

让我做一下 APE 练习。”

Jonny Miller: Yeah, well, just to kind of piggyback on what you just said, if you are about to jump on a meeting and you're noticing that your stomach is clenched, that's actually really useful data to be like, "Why is this happening?" Is it your intuition kind of saying that maybe you shouldn't do this deal with someone or maybe something is off and so it's a sign to explore that more.

乔尼·米勒：是的，好吧，只是借用一下你刚才所说的，如果你正要参加一个会议，并且注意到你的胃紧绷，那么这实际上是非常有用的数据，比如“为什么会发生这种情况？”你的直觉是否在告诉你，也许你不应该与某人做这笔交易，或者也许有些事情不对劲，所以这是一个需要进行更多探索的信号。

Or it could be that you've been triggered by something or something that someone said and you've only just realized it and then that's again, more information or something that you can reflect on or go into.

或者可能是你被某人所说的某事或某事所触发，而你刚刚意识到这一点，然后又是更多信息或你可以反思或深入研究的东西。

Lenny: Is there anything in your life recently that is an example of this where you're feeling unsure and maybe you realize, "Oh, here's what my body's doing, maybe I should pay more attention to this."

莱尼：最近你的生活中有没有什么事情可以证明这一点，让你感到不确定，也许你意识到，“哦，这就是我的身体在做什么，也许我应该更加注意这一点。”

Jonny Miller: Actually, last week I did a podcast conversation, so I have a podcast myself, and I got off the call and I remember I felt or got off the podcast and I felt pretty exhausted and I felt like there was this kind of tension in my chest.

乔尼·米勒：实际上，上周我做了一个播客对话，所以我自己也有一个播客，我挂断电话后，我记得我感觉或挂掉了播客，我感到非常疲惫，我感觉我的胸部有一种紧张。

And again, my breath was kind of all over the place and I realized that I had very much over committed myself for that week.

再一次，我的呼吸有点乱，我意识到我在那一周的投入太多了。

I'd scheduled back to back podcast interviews.

我安排了背靠背的播客采访。

The podcast wasn't even the priority for what I'm focusing on in this quarter, so I then made the decision to just push back all my episodes until the summer basically.

播客甚至不是我本季度关注的重点，所以我决定将所有剧集基本上推迟到夏天。

Lenny: I love that example.

莱尼：我喜欢这个例子。

I know that feeling very well.

我非常了解这种感觉。

Lenny: When you wrote about this idea of interoception, you connected it to burnout, and I think you talked about how this is one of the best tools to avoid burnout.

莱尼：当你写到内感受的想法时，你把它与倦怠联系起来，我想你谈到了这是如何成为避免倦怠的最佳工具之一。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Am I remembering that right?

我没记错吧？

And if so, how do you think about this burnout and avoiding burnout in general, something a lot of people experience?

如果是这样，您如何看待这种倦怠并避免一般的倦怠（很多人都经历过这种情况）？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so I have this idea that I call the feather brick dump truck phenomenon.

乔尼·米勒：是的，所以我有一个想法，我称之为羽毛砖自卸车现象。

And basically what that means is when we are showing early signs of burnout, our body will give us feedback usually in subtle ways in the beginning.

基本上，这意味着当我们表现出倦怠的早期迹象时，我们的身体通常会在一开始以微妙的方式给我们反馈。

So the feather might be waking up in the morning and feeling a little bit tired, maybe a little bit exhausted.

所以羽毛可能会在早上醒来并感到有点累，也许有点疲惫。

The brick, maybe you ignore that or you don't notice it, and then three or four weeks later you have a fight with someone or an argument or you just feel frustrated and terrible and you lose your cool.

砖头，也许你忽略了这一点，或者你没有注意到它，然后三四个星期后，你与某人打架或争论，或者你只是感到沮丧和可怕，你失去了冷静。

And then maybe the dump truck is a month later or even a year later, there's a full-blown health crisis, or you develop type two diabetes or there's a whole range of things, or maybe you get fired.

然后也许自卸车是一个月后甚至一年后，出现全面的健康危机，或者你患上二型糖尿病，或者有各种各样的事情，或者你可能被解雇。

There's a bunch of different things that can happen, but normally depending on how attuned or depending on someone's interoceptive capacity, ideally, you want to notice when it's the feather and then make adjustments or shift then and not have to wait until you experience the full-blown pain of the dump truck, which unfortunately is what happens to a lot of people, especially when they experience burnout for the first time.

可能会发生很多不同的事情，但通常取决于协调程度或某人的内感受能力，理想情况下，你想要注意到什么时候它是羽毛，然后做出调整或转移，而不必等到你经历自卸卡车的全面痛苦，不幸的是，这就是很多人都会发生的事情，尤其是当他们第一次经历倦怠时。

Lenny: This is such an important point and such a good way of thinking about it.

莱尼：这是非常重要的一点，也是一种很好的思考方式。

It reminds me of Andy Johns and the episode we had there of just how long and willing to the episode there of just how all these little things came up along the way and then eventually just became incredibly unsustainable to live the life that he was living.

这让我想起安迪·约翰斯和我们在那里度过的那一集，以及我们在那里度过了多久和愿意的那一集，所有这些小事情是如何一路出现的，然后最终变得非常不可持续，无法过上他现在的生活。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Miro.

莱尼：这一集是米罗给你带来的。

Do you ever feel like your projects aren't as organized as you like them to be or it's way too hard for people on your team to find all of the documents and files and context that they need for their project?

您是否曾经感觉您的项目没有像您希望的那样井井有条，或者您的团队中的人员很难找到他们的项目所需的所有文档、文件和上下文？

Miro helps you streamline your workflows, organize information, and get your whole team on the same page.

Miro 可帮助您简化工作流程、组织信息并使整个团队达成共识。

If you want to see what Miro can do for you, check out my Miro board that the Miro team helped me create, which includes all of my favorite plug and play templates, like a user journey map, my favorite one pager template plus a brainstorming guide.

如果您想了解 Miro 可以为您做什么，请查看 Miro 团队帮助我创建的 Miro 板，其中包括我最喜欢的所有即插即用模板，例如用户旅程地图、我最喜欢的寻呼机模板以及头脑风暴指南。

My board also has a place for you to share suggestions for this podcast and also answer a question that I have for you.

我的董事会还设有一个地方，供您分享对此播客的建议，并回答我向您提出的问题。

You can then take my Miro board and easily create your own to see how it feels.

然后，您可以使用我的 Miro 板轻松创建自己的板，看看感觉如何。

Make sure to check out some of my favorite features, like the sticky notes, the inline comments and charts, and also the really cool diagramming tools.

请务必查看一些我最喜欢的功能，例如便签、内联注释和图表，以及非常酷的图表工具。

Check it out at miro.com/lenny.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。

Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up today at miro.com/lenny.

当您今天在 miro.com/lenny 注册时，您的前三个 Miro 板是免费的。

Find simplicity in your most complex projects with Miro.

使用 Miro 让您最复杂的项目变得简单。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: What are some examples of this feather?

莱尼：这根羽毛有哪些例子？

So your advice here is just pay attention to these little signs that you're not living a sustainable life right now.

因此，您在这里的建议是注意这些表明您目前生活不可持续的小迹象。

What are some examples of these kind of feathery signs of like maybe I need to change something?

这些类似“也许我需要改变一些东西”的羽毛状迹象有哪些例子？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so I'll tie this in with a concept that I call emotional debt, which is basically when our nervous system experiences stress, there's known as a mobilization cycle, and if that cycle isn't completed or we don't get to downshift or relax on the other side, that gets stored in the body as allostatic load, which I call emotional debt.

乔尼·米勒：是的，所以我将其与一个我称之为情感债务的概念联系起来，这基本上是当我们的神经系统经历压力时，就会有一个动员周期，如果这个周期没有完成，或者我们没有在另一侧降档或放松，那么它就会以非稳态负荷的形式储存在体内，我称之为情感债务。

And over time, that creates fragility in the nervous system.

随着时间的推移，这会导致神经系统变得脆弱。

And so what that fragility can look like is anything from being impacted by small things in a kind of disproportionate way.

因此，这种脆弱性可能是指受到小事情以某种不成比例的方式影响的情况。

So noticing that you are more reactive than normal, maybe you're a little bit more snappy, maybe you get frustrated by little things, maybe your sleep isn't as good, maybe you wake up not feeling fully rested.

所以注意到你比平常更加反应，也许你有点急躁，也许你因为小事而感到沮丧，也许你的睡眠不太好，也许你醒来时感觉没有充分休息。

Maybe relationships are often, especially intimate relationships are usually a place that this shows up or relationships at work.

也许关系是经常出现的，特别是亲密关系通常是这种情况出现的地方，或者是工作中的关系。

So those are the classic early warning signs.

这些是典型的早期预警信号。

And then as that emotional debt threshold increases in the same way that say with technical debt, if you're building a product in the beginning, it's fine, and in fact it's even necessary in the beginning.

然后，随着情感债务门槛的增加，就像技术债务一样，如果你在一开始就构建一个产品，那很好，事实上，一开始它甚至是必要的。

It's great that our body can buffer the stress response because it allows us to function.

我们的身体可以缓冲压力反应，这很好，因为它可以让我们发挥作用。

But if we don't pay off that technical debt or emotional debt, then over time it accumulates and it can also come out through health crises, health challenges.

但如果我们不偿还技术债务或情感债务，那么随着时间的推移，它就会积累，也可能通过健康危机、健康挑战而出现。

It just gets basically progressively worse until that debt is paid off.

在债务还清之前，情况基本上会变得越来越糟。

Lenny: I feel like a lot of people listening are like, "Yes, I know exactly what you mean." How does one notice that you're building emotional debt and then how do you start to release this debt and pay off this debt?

莱尼：我觉得很多人听的时候都会说，“是的，我完全明白你的意思。”人们如何注意到你正在建立情感债务，然后你如何开始释放这种债务并偿还这种债务？

Jonny Miller: What I've seen with some of my founder clients and in the research that we did where we interviewed 260 leaders, what can often happen is that emotional debt will increase and increase and increase until it gets to a point where we are well outside what's known as a window of tolerance.

Jonny Miller：我从我的一些创始人客户身上看到的情况以及我们在采访 260 位领导者的研究中发现，经常发生的情况是，情感债务会不断增加，直到达到我们远远超出所谓容忍窗口的程度。

And at that point there's like a crash.

就在那时，就像发生了车祸。

It's almost like the fuse switch blows and there's exhaustion.

就好像保险丝开关烧断了一样，让人筋疲力尽。

Maybe there's complete inability to get up off the couch.

也许完全无法从沙发上站起来。

And for some people, people with large nervous system capacity, they can keep going for five years, maybe 10 years, and they can keep building this up, and it becomes normalized to live in a way where you are always on and never really relaxing or coming down.

对于一些人来说，神经系统能力很强的人，他们可以持续五年，也许十年，他们可以不断建立这种能力，并且以一种永远在线、从不真正放松或沮丧的方式生活变得常态化。

Or one really key sign actually is if you are not able to naturally downshift or down regulate your nervous system at the end of the day without something like wine or CBD or some kind of external substance, that's a sign that you kind of reached a certain threshold of emotional debt.

或者一个真正关键的迹象实际上是，如果你在一天结束时无法自然地降低或下调你的神经系统，而没有像葡萄酒或 CBD 或某种外部物质这样的东西，那么这表明你已经达到了一定的情感债务阈值。

Lenny: And then how does one start to pay off this debt if you've spent years just working way too hard, you've had a relationship that just isn't working great, I don't know.

莱尼：那么，如果你多年来工作太过努力，你的关系也进展不佳，我不知道如何开始偿还这笔债务。

I imagine most people go to therapy and just talk through all these things and try to work through the challenges.

我想大多数人去接受治疗时只是谈论所有这些事情并尝试应对挑战。

What do you recommend if you're just like, "Man, I feel like I have this, what should I do?"

如果您只是想“伙计，我觉得我有这个，我该怎么办？”，您会推荐什么？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, well, I mean that's a big question.

乔尼·米勒：是的，我的意思是这是一个大问题。

I'll probably get some pushback for this, but I'm not a big fan of talk therapy alone or at least therapy that doesn't have a somatic or body-based component.

我可能会因此受到一些阻力，但我不太喜欢单独的谈话疗法，或者至少不喜欢没有躯体或身体成分的疗法。

And from my understanding of the nervous system and how we store this stress, just talking about things and keeping things on the level of the intellect doesn't actually address the root of the challenge.

根据我对神经系统以及我们如何储存这种压力的理解，仅仅谈论事物并将事物保持在智力水平上并不能真正解决挑战的根源。

What we need to do is create a certain sense of safety to kind of go into those buffered emotional responses and feel them all the way through and allow that mobilization reflex to complete.

我们需要做的是创造一定的安全感，以进入那些缓冲的情绪反应，并全程感受它们，并让动员反射完成。

Jonny Miller: And so to kind of give a personal example, when I was living in Bali, I did several hundred breathwork journeys where you breathe in a certain way to get into an altered state, and then in that place, these memories would arise of these things that happened 5, 10 years ago.

乔尼·米勒：举个个人的例子，当我住在巴厘岛时，我进行了数百次呼吸之旅，你以某种方式呼吸，进入一种改变的状态，然后在那个地方，这些记忆会出现在 5、10 年前发生的事情。

And my body, it would either move a certain way or the anger would come through.

而我的身体，要么以某种方式移动，要么愤怒就会通过。

Sometimes there would be sadness or grief.

有时会感到悲伤或悲伤。

Often there's a lot of stored emotion that's held in our body that just needs permission to kind of be felt through and be released.

通常，我们体内储存着很多情绪，只需要得到许可才能被感受和释放​​。

And so for me, it was a journey of coming into right relationship with my anger and my grief, and honestly my shame as well, giving myself permission to feel this gunk that had been stored in my pelvis.

所以对我来说，这是一个与我的愤怒和悲伤建立正确关系的旅程，老实说，我的羞耻也是如此，让自己允许自己感受储存在我骨盆中的这种粘稠物。

Jonny Miller: So I'm not saying you have to go to Bali and do 200 breathwork journeys.

Jonny Miller：所以我并不是说你必须去巴厘岛并进行 200 次呼吸之旅。

That's definitely not...

这绝对不是...

I mean, that's a path.

我的意思是，那是一条路。

But first it begins with, as I said, cultivating interoception and even being aware that there is this tension, there are these things in your body.

但首先，正如我所说，培养内感受，甚至意识到存在这种紧张，你的身体里有这些东西。

Secondly, having the practices of self-regulation so that if these things come up, you don't get overwhelmed.

其次，进行自我调节，这样当这些事情出现时，你就不会不知所措。

You're able to downshift and ground.

您可以降档并接地。

And then thirdly, it's the practice of what I call emotional fluidity, which is basically creating the conditions of welcoming the full spectrum of emotions as they arise.

第三，这是我所说的情绪流动性的实践，这基本上是为迎接各种情绪的出现创造条件。

And often it's very helpful to have a guide or a somatic practitioner, I like somatic experiencing, hakomi, the two modalities I'm a big fan of.

通常，有一个指导者或一个躯体治疗师是非常有帮助的，我喜欢躯体体验，哈科米，我非常喜欢这两种方式。

And yeah, that's the journey and a process and it depends how many years you've been operating in a slightly numbed way, and it's different for everyone.

是的，这就是旅程和过程，这取决于你以稍微麻木的方式经营了多少年，而且对每个人来说都是不同的。

But it begins by tuning into and listening to the body and then having honestly curiosity about what is there and just following that curiosity and the body starts to show you what is ready to be seen.

但它首先要调准并倾听身体的声音，然后对那里的事物抱有真诚的好奇心，跟随这种好奇心，身体就会开始向你展示即将看到的东西。

Lenny: I love that it always comes back to the original place we started which is that the way we feel is a very bottom up body-based system, it's not we feel something and our body gets nervous.

莱尼：我喜欢它总是回到我们开始的最初位置，那就是我们感觉是一个非常自下而上的基于身体的系统，并不是我们感觉到了什么，我们的身体就会变得紧张。

It's our body gets nervous, and they're like, "Oh, here's why I'm nervous." And your advice is just focus a lot on helping your body release the stuff that you've built up this debt.

这是我们的身体变得紧张，他们会说，“哦，这就是我紧张的原因。”你的建议就是集中精力帮助你的身体释放你所欠下的债务。

And then also just when you're nervous in the moment, focus on getting your body to a state versus trying to convince your mind now everything's going to be okay.

然后，当你此刻感到紧张时，专注于让你的身体进入一种状态，而不是试图说服你的思想现在一切都会好起来的。

Lenny: And specifically on the therapy route, just to touch on that, so your advice there is if you were to work with a therapist and you feel a lot of this stuff that we're talking about is focused on a somatic oriented therapy where it's body oriented, not just thinking about it and talking through stuff, it's actually convincing your body, "Here's a way to helping your body release this debt, essentially."

莱尼：特别是在治疗路线上，只是为了触及这一点，所以你的建议是，如果你要与治疗师一起工作，并且你觉得我们正在谈论的很多东西都集中在以身体为导向的躯体导向疗法上，而不仅仅是思考和谈论东西，它实际上是在说服你的身体，“本质上，这是一种帮助你的身体释放这种债务的方法。”

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

I mean, you can understand in precise detail about whatever the challenge was from 5, 10 and 15 years ago, but if you're unable to connect it to the correlating sensations in the body...

我的意思是，你可以准确地理解 5 年前、10 年前和 15 年前的挑战，但如果你无法将其与身体的相关感觉联系起来......

Usually if say, I don't know, if I was to imagine someone shouted at me yesterday and I think about that, there's usually a correlating kind of sematic sensation.

通常如果说，我不知道，如果我想象昨天有人对我大喊大叫并且我想到这一点，通常会有一种相关的语义感觉。

The neuroscientist Damasio calls it a somatic marker.

神经科学家达马西奥称之为躯体标记。

So by tracking the somatic markers and then either on your own just kind of following that sensation and allowing whatever emotion was present at the time to complete that is the way that we kind of slowly pay off that emotional debt by one process at a time.

因此，通过跟踪躯体标记，然后你自己跟踪那种感觉，并允许当时出现的任何情绪完成，这就是我们一次通过一个过程慢慢偿还情感债务的方式。

Lenny: So maybe coming back to this question of say someone is listening and wondering, am I building emotional debt?

莱尼：所以也许回到这个问题，说有人正在倾听并想知道，我是否在建立情感债务？

Am I ignoring things that are these feathers?

我是否忽略了这些羽毛？

What are signs and just, I don't know, examples of emotional debt being built up of this trauma, whatever you want to call it, being built up in the body?

我不知道，这种创伤（无论你怎么称呼它）在身体中积累的情感债务有什么迹象和例子？

I don't know, is it just like anytime you feel really nervous, that's emotional debt?

我不知道，是不是就像任何时候你感到非常紧张，这就是情感债？

Is it anytime you push something down that you are pretty sure you should deal with in the moment, that's emotional debt?

是否有任何时候你压低了一些你确信当前应该处理的事情，这就是情感债务？

What are just some examples of what that feels like and looks like?

举几个例子来说明这种感觉和外观是什么样的？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so it's typically different forms of nervous system dysregulation and that shows up as it could be someone's breathing pattern if they're constantly in this sympathetic or hypervigilant state, if they're always tracking for things, looking for the worst case scenario.

乔尼·米勒：是的，所以这通常是不同形式的神经系统失调，如果一个人一直处于这种交感神经或高度警惕的状态，如果他们总是在追踪事物，寻找最坏的情况，那么这可能是一个人的呼吸模式。

Another common one, and this is particularly true in the tech sector, is being very much in the head and living in the thoughts and the mind the entire time.

另一个常见的问题是，在科技领域尤其如此，那就是始终处于头脑中，活在思想和头脑中。

And there's a form of disassociation that happens as a kind of protection mechanism essentially because it's uncomfortable to be with the sensations in the body.

有一种形式的分离是作为一种保护机制而发生的，本质上是因为与身体的感觉相处感到不舒服。

And because our society tends to reward people for solving problems and being in their mind, that is a pattern that continues for many, many years or even decades.

因为我们的社会倾向于奖励那些解决问题并思考问题的人，所以这种模式会持续很多年甚至几十年。

Jonny Miller: Other ones are, I think the most obvious one for people is emotional reactivity, where your response to a certain situation is disproportionate to what's happened.

乔尼·米勒：我认为对人们来说最明显的一个是情绪反应，即你对某种情况的反应与所发生的事情不成比例。

So for example, if you said something to me of that doesn't make any sense, and I was like, I freeze maybe...

举例来说，如果你对我说了一些毫无意义的话，我就想，我可能会冻结……

And this is another important point that most people have two versions of reactivity.

这是另一个重要的一点，大多数人有两种版本的反应性。

Some people will freeze, withdraw, shut down and disconnect, and other people will become more aggressive, become bigger and attack and fight back.

有些人会冻结、退缩、封闭和断开连接，而另一些人会变得更加激进、变得更大、攻击和反击。

And knowing which way you tend to orient, for me, it's usually shrink and freeze and shut down, knowing what your pattern is and also knowing what the sensations are when this happens, it's really helpful for you to be like, "Oh, that thing's happening." My priority now is to downshift and kind of find a sense of safety basically in the body and then interact, then make the decision, then have the conversation.

知道你倾向于哪种方向，对我来说，它通常是收缩、冻结和关闭，知道你的模式是什么，也知道发生这种情况时的感觉是什么，这对你来说真的很有帮助，“哦，那件事正在发生。”我现在的首要任务是放慢速度，基本上在身体中找到一种安全感，然后互动，然后做出决定，然后进行对话。

Because if you can keep going from that place of reactivity, nothing good happens from that place.

因为如果你能继续离开那个反应性的地方，那么那个地方就不会发生任何好事。

No great decisions were made from that place.

那个地方没有做出重大决定。

So again, that's a place where having the interoceptive awareness to know, "Oh, this is what's going on." Being able to then downshift your system, kind of access a sense of, "Oh, I'm okay, actually this isn't so bad." And then moving on from there is a profoundly practical and just useful skill.

再说一遍，这是一个具有内感受意识的地方，可以知道“哦，这就是正在发生的事情。”然后能够降档你的系统，有点感觉，“哦，我很好，实际上这并没有那么糟糕。”然后从那里继续前进是一项非常实用且有用的技能。

Lenny: Kind of along these same lines, you wrote somewhere this idea that you have a big competitive advantage if you feel the feels is the way you described it.

莱尼：类似地，您在某处写过这样的想法：如果您感觉感觉如您所描述的那样，那么您将拥有巨大的竞争优势。

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

And if so, what can you share around that, just why this is so powerful, especially in the workplace?

如果是这样，您能分享什么吗？为什么它如此强大，尤其是在工作场所？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so I think I wrote about this in one of the Every essays.

乔尼·米勒：是的，所以我想我在《Every》的一篇文章中写过这一点。

I think the title was The Best Decision-Making Is Emotional.

我认为标题是《最好的决策是感性的》。

And I basically wanted to kind of poke at the phrase, I think I saw someone on Twitter say, "Fact over feelings, like don't let emotions ruin good decision making." And yeah, there's so much that I can say about this.

我基本上想戳一下这句话，我想我在推特上看到有人说，“事实胜过感情，就像不要让情绪毁掉好的决策一样。”是的，关于这个我有很多话要说。

But basically there was a landmark study by this guy, Damasio, this kind of famous neuroscientist, and he studied a patient called Elliot.

但基本上，达马西奥（Damasio）这位著名的神经科学家进行了一项具有里程碑意义的研究，他研究了一位名叫埃利奥特（Elliot）的患者。

And Elliot had a tumor in his brain that was removed and it basically meant that he was unable to feel emotions.

艾略特大脑中的肿瘤被切除，这基本上意味着他无法感受到情绪。

So his entire emotional capacity was removed.

所以他的全部情感能力都被移除了。

And Elliot went from being a successful married businessman to divorced, broke and unable to choose what he could have for lunch.

艾略特从一个成功的已婚商人变成了离婚者，破产了，无法选择午餐吃什么。

He was unable to make the most basic life decisions, and it's because he didn't have access to that emotional sense in his brain.

他无法做出最基本的生活决定，这是因为他无法获得大脑中的情感感觉。

Jonny Miller: And so our brain is like a prediction making machine, and as I mentioned earlier, there's this highway of sensory data that's coming up through the body.

乔尼·米勒：所以我们的大脑就像一台预测机器，正如我之前提到的，有一条感官数据的高速公路穿过身体。

And if we don't listen to that when we are making decisions, then we're losing out on a lot of information.

如果我们在做决定时不听取这些意见，那么我们就会失去很多信息。

And what tends to happen, I see this in clients that I work with, is if they are avoiding feeling a certain way, let's say, that they don't enjoy feeling conflict or anger, then they will make decisions subconsciously to avoid feeling that way.

我在与我合作的客户中发现，往往会发生的情况是，如果他们避免某种感觉，比如说，他们不喜欢感受到冲突或愤怒，那么他们会下意识地做出决定，以避免这种感觉。

And it becomes a huge bias and a huge problem because people make decisions because they're afraid of feeling a certain way.

这成为一个巨大的偏见和一个巨大的问题，因为人们做出决定是因为他们害怕某种感觉。

And if you are on the other hand able to just welcome and be with whatever emotions would arise on the other side of a decision, you're able to decide clearly instead of being skewed one way or the other.

另一方面，如果你能够欣然接受并接受决策另一方可能出现的任何情绪，你就能够清楚地做出决定，而不是偏向某一方面。

Lenny: Do you find there's ever a downside to being too in touch with what you're feeling?

莱尼：你觉得过于关注自己的感受有什么坏处吗？

I actually not a feeler of what I'm feeling kind of person.

我其实对自己的感受并不是一个感觉的人。

I'm pretty stable, partly because I'm not super in tune with what I'm feeling a lot of times, and maybe this is a huge problem that I need to deal with.

我很稳定，部分原因是我很多时候都不太适应自己的感受，也许这是我需要处理的一个大问题。

But I don't know, it's worked out okay so far.

但我不知道，到目前为止一切顺利。

I guess, do you ever find that sometimes it's okay, sometimes you don't need to know exactly every moment anything that's hurting you or causing you pain?

我想，你有没有发现有时没关系，有时你不需要每时每刻都准确地知道任何伤害你或给你带来痛苦的事情？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, it's a good question.

乔尼·米勒：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

And some people do have a very high interoceptive capacity, and that can be overwhelming.

有些人确实具有非常高的内感受能力，这可能是压倒性的。

In which case I would recommend focusing on the breathing practices to build that capacity to downshift, so you're able to just function.

在这种情况下，我建议集中精力进行呼吸练习，以增强降档的能力，以便您能够正常工作。

And there's definitely people who are overwhelmed by the stimuli of day-to-day life being out in traffic, like they're very easily overwhelmed.

肯定有人会被日常生活中的交通刺激所淹没，就像他们很容易被淹没一样。

And for those people working on increasing nervous system capacity to kind of hold that amount of stress, maybe it's through sauna and cold plunge, maybe it's through gentle titration of stresses and then downshifting, that's actually really valuable.

对于那些致力于提高神经系统承受一定压力的能力的人来说，也许是通过桑拿和冷水浴，也许是通过温和的滴定压力然后降档，这实际上非常有价值。

Jonny Miller: I'd also say that the ability to function well, this applies to a lot of high functioning people, which is probably honestly a lot of your audience.

乔尼·米勒：我还要说的是，良好运作的能力，这适用于很多高功能的人，老实说，这可能是你的很多观众。

It's very helpful in the moment to, let's say something comes up, you want to be able to buffer intense emotions and say, get through the meeting, get through whatever it is.

此刻，假设有事情发生，你希望能够缓冲强烈的情绪，然后说，完成会议，完成任何事情，这是非常有帮助的。

It's a very helpful skill.

这是一项非常有用的技能。

But if you don't, then give yourself spaciousness afterwards to downshift and allow yourself to feel whatever was brought up by that experience, you are going to be adding to this emotional debt over time.

但如果你不这样做，那么事后给自己留出空间来降档，让自己感受那次经历带来的一切，随着时间的推移，你的情感债务将会增加。

And as I mentioned, some people, it might be a year before there's some kind of breakdown, burnout.

正如我提到的，有些人可能需要一年的时间才会出现某种崩溃、倦怠。

Other people, it might be longer.

其他人，可能会更长。

And usually it's more unfortunate in the longer case because it creates a long-term health crisis and then lower amount of money or time is able to repair the damage that's been done, which can be really tragic.

通常，在较长的情况下会更不幸，因为它会造成长期的健康危机，然后用较少的金钱或时间就可以修复所造成的损害，这可能是非常悲惨的。

Lenny: My chat with Andy Johns is a great example of that happening.

莱尼：我和安迪·约翰斯的聊天就是一个很好的例子。

Jonny Miller: Yeah.

乔尼·米勒：是的。

And Andy's a superb example, and I love his vulnerability and honesty in what he's been through.

安迪是一个极好的例子，我喜欢他在所经历的事情中表现出的脆弱和诚实。

Lenny: Yeah, I think if you're interested in this topic, definitely watch that episode.

莱尼：是的，我想如果你对这个话题感兴趣，一定要观看那一集。

Another exercise that you talk a lot about is this idea, it's called NSDR, I think.

您经常谈论的另一个练习是这个想法，我认为它称为 NSDR。

Talk about that and when that might be useful, how to go about using this tool.

讨论一下这个问题，以及什么时候它可能有用，以及如何使用这个工具。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, so NSDR was a practice coined by Andrew Huberman, who you mentioned earlier.

Jonny Miller：是的，NSDR 是您之前提到的 Andrew Huberman 创造的一种做法。

And it basically, it's a more scientific lens on the practice of yoga nidra, which is an ancient yoga practice.

基本上，它是对瑜伽休息术（一种古老的瑜伽练习）练习的更科学的视角。

But I am a huge fan of it, and I do it myself most days for 15 to 20 minutes.

但我是它的超级粉丝，大多数时候我都会自己做 15 到 20 分钟。

Basically what it looks like is you lie down, put on an eye mask or a blindfold, and you listen to a guided audio.

基本上看起来就是你躺下来，戴上眼罩或眼罩，然后听引导音频。

I've recorded some myself, so I can share these in the show note links.

我自己录制了一些，所以我可以在演出笔记链接中分享这些内容。

Lenny: Your voice would be so good for these, by the way.

莱尼：顺便说一句，你的声音对这些来说非常好。

You found your calling.

你找到了你的使命。

Jonny Miller: Nice, yeah.

乔尼·米勒：很好，是的。

It's really fun for me to do.

这对我来说真的很有趣。

But basically what it involves is a guided body scan.

但基本上它涉及的是引导身体扫描。

So this is also a great way to practice interoception.

所以这也是练习内感受的好方法。

It's something that I didn't mention earlier was that when there's cortisol present in our body, the cortisol basically acts as a numbing agent, so it's much harder to kind of tune into those sensations.

我之前没有提到的是，当我们体内存在皮质醇时，皮质醇基本上起着麻木剂的作用，因此要适应这些感觉要困难得多。

But using this, I think it's a 14-minute guided NSDR practice, you're basically lying down, there's a guided body scan, there's relaxing music in the background.

但使用这个，我认为这是一个 14 分钟的引导 NSDR 练习，你基本上是躺着的，有引导的身体扫描，背景中有轻松的音乐。

And by the end of it, you feel like you've had a two-hour nap.

到最后，你会感觉自己已经睡了两个小时了。

It feels incredible.

感觉不可思议。

Jonny Miller: And particularly for people who myself tend to get tired in the afternoons, if you space this out, usually between 1 and 3:00 PM for me, that will give you a second wind in the afternoon and it'll mean you won't end the day collapse on the sofa.

Jonny Miller：特别是对于那些我自己在下午容易感到疲倦的人来说，如果你把这个时间间隔开来，通常是在下午 1:00 到 3:00 之间，这会让你在下午恢复活力，这意味着你不会在沙发上倒下一天。

So I think it's great for improving interoception, it's good for allowing your body to downshift and relax instead of being in that kind of high tone sympathetic state all throughout the day.

所以我认为这对于改善内感受非常有用，它有利于让你的身体降速和放松，而不是整天处于那种高调的交感神经状态。

So it gives your body a break, and it just feels really good.

所以它可以让你的身体得到休息，而且感觉真的很好。

Honestly, it's probably my most played practice of everything that I teach, just people listen to it every day.

老实说，这可能是我所教的所有内容中最常用的练习，只是人们每天都会听它。

So I'll share that in the show notes as well.

所以我也会在演出笔记中分享这一点。

Lenny: And I imagine if you feel like you've built this emotional debt, this would be a really good exercise to start to do, is that right?

莱尼：我想如果你觉得自己已经建立了这种情感债务，那么这将是一个非常好的练习，对吗？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, it is fantastic.

乔尼·米勒：是的，太棒了。

I mean, there's some people who struggle with having enough energy to kind of get out of bed and function.

我的意思是，有些人很难有足够的能量来起床和活动。

But again, I imagine listeners to your show, people that live in Silicon Valley, their challenge is the downshifting without external substances.

但我再次想象一下你的节目的听众，生活在硅谷的人们，他们的挑战是在没有外部物质的情况下降档。

And so NSDR is a really great way of strengthening that ventral vagal tone, which is our body's capacity to go from on kind of go, go, go to then relaxing.

因此，NSDR 确实是增强腹侧迷走神经张力的好方法，腹侧迷走神经张力是我们身体从“走、走、走”到放松的能力。

There's a quote from Kevin Kelly that I interviewed recently, and he said, "If you have a great work ethic that needs to be matched with a great rest ethic." And I think that kind of piece of actually training our capacity to downshift after stress is just completely missing from most people's playbooks.

我最近采访过凯文·凯利（Kevin Kelly）的话，他说：“如果你有良好的职业道德，就需要与良好的休息道德相匹配。”我认为，大多数人的战术手册中完全缺少这种真正训练我们在压力后降级的能力。

Lenny: I think with a lot of the sort of advice, if you listen, Tim Ferriss and Huberman and everyone's got this stuff you should be doing every day list and it ends up being so long and there's so many things to do, cold plunge, sauna.

莱尼：我认为，如果你听蒂姆·费里斯和休伯曼的建议，有很多这样的建议，每个人都会列出你每天应该做的事情，但最终会变得很长，而且有很多事情要做，冷水浴、桑拿。

What is it that you practice or come back to slash what would you recommend people try to do daily that is most impactful of all this stuff we've talked about?

在我们讨论过的所有这些事情中，您练习或回来削减您建议人们每天尝试做的最有影响力的事情是什么？

Jonny Miller: First experiment with a bunch of different practices and see which you enjoy and notice how you feel before and then how you feel afterwards.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：首先尝试一系列不同的练习，看看你喜欢哪种，并注意你之前和之后的感受。

That's kind of the key because once you know that it feels good, you're not going to have to force yourself or motivate yourself to do it.

这是关键，因为一旦你知道这种感觉很好，你就不必强迫自己或激励自己去做。

You'll just do it naturally because you know you'll feel great afterwards.

你会很自然地这样做，因为你知道之后你会感觉很棒。

I would recommend starting really simple, so starting with the 4, 4, 8 breathing or humming, doing that in the morning for just two minutes, two minutes in the beginning is enough.

我建议从非常简单的开始，所以从 4、4、8 呼吸或哼唱开始，早上只做两分钟，开始时两分钟就足够了。

And I would also recommend listening to the NSDR practice at least once or twice.

我还建议至少听一两次 NSDR 实践。

If you work from home, it's pretty easy after a lunch break, something like that could also be in the evening when you get home as well.

如果你在家工作，午休后就很容易了，类似的事情也可能发生在你晚上回家时。

Some people use it to help fall asleep.

有些人用它来帮助入睡。

Jonny Miller: And then the final thing that I would recommend is if you have the resources and you have access, finding a somatic practitioner or somatic therapist is so .

乔尼·米勒：我建议的最后一件事是，如果你有资源并且有机会，那么找到躯体治疗师或躯体治疗师就是这样。

I mean, I emerged a completely different human on the other side of the 200 breathwork journeys.

我的意思是，在 200 次呼吸之旅的另一边，我变成了一个完全不同的人。

I have a different experience of life basically released so much time.

我对生活的不同体验基本上释放了这么多时间。

Even my voice sounds different.

就连我的声音听起来也不一样。

If you listen to the podcast episodes I recorded four or five years ago, my voice is higher pitched.

如果你听我四五年前录制的播客节目，我的声音会更高。

It just sounds different.

只是听起来不一样。

It has a different resonant quality to it.

它具有不同的共振品质。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Okay, awesome.

好吧，太棒了。

So you've kind of summarized, I was going to try to summarize all the advice you've given, but if you were to do the bare minimum next steps based on this advice, try this 4, 4, 8/3, 3, 6/2, 2, 4.

所以你已经总结了，我打算尝试总结你给出的所有建议，但如果你要根据这个建议执行最低限度的后续步骤，请尝试这个 4, 4, 8/3, 3, 6/2, 2, 4。

Does 2, 2, 4 work too if you just go real fast I guess?

我想，如果你跑得很快的话，2、2、4 也可以吗？

Lenny: Okay, perfect.

莱尼：好的，完美。

Okay, so do that for a couple mornings.

好吧，就这样做几个早晨。

See how that does try this NSDR practice.

看看如何尝试这种 NSDR 实践。

We'll link to a recording of how to do that and then was there something else you recommended?

我们将链接到如何执行此操作的录音，然后您还有其他建议吗？

Oh, somatic worker, basically maybe a therapist, maybe not someone that helps you with your body.

哦，躯体工作者，基本上可能是治疗师，也许不是帮助你治疗身体的人。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, and I'd add in the eight practice for even 15 seconds before the breathing in the morning and after, just so that you notice the difference.

Jonny Miller：是的，我会在早上呼吸之前和之后添加 8 次练习，甚至 15 秒，这样你就能注意到差异。

And if you do the NSDR, that is basically a 15-minute interoception practice as well.

如果你进行 NSDR，这基本上也是 15 分钟的内感受练习。

So you're kind of getting two birds with one stone with that practice.

所以，通过这种做法，你可以说是一石二鸟。

Lenny: What's your perspective on meditation?

莱尼：你对冥想有何看法？

Does that fit into this?

这适合吗？

Do you find the NSDR replaces the need for meditation?

您是否发现 NSDR 取代了冥想的需要？

Jonny Miller: That is a big topic.

乔尼·米勒：这是一个很大的话题。

I am an avid meditator as what I've done many 10 day silent retreats.

我是一位狂热的冥想者，因为我已经做过很多次为期十天的静修。

I was in a dark room for 10 days.

我在黑暗的房间里呆了十天。

Jonny Miller: With meditation, I think it really depends on what you are training.

乔尼·米勒：对于冥想，我认为这实际上取决于你正在训练的内容。

It's like saying what's your opinion on exercise?

这就像说你对锻炼有什么看法？

Well, are you training mobility or stamina or strength?

那么，你是在训练灵活性、耐力还是力量？

It's the same with meditation.

冥想也是如此。

You could be training loving kindness.

你可以训练慈爱。

You could be training your focus and attention.

您可以训练您的注意力和注意力。

You could be training spacious awareness.

你可以训练广阔的意识。

So I'm a big fan of embodied meditation practices.

所以我非常喜欢具身冥想练习。

So this is often the classic vipassana body scan is a good example.

所以这常常是经典的内观身体扫描的一个很好的例子。

Again, I mean that's basically interoceptive practice where you are just moving your attention through different parts of your body over and over and over again for days on end.

再说一遍，我的意思是，这基本上是内感受练习，你只需连续几天一遍又一遍地将注意力转移到身体的不同部位。

Jonny Miller: In the case of vipassana retreat, meditation is helpful for the specific skill of increasing the psychological space between a stimulus and your response.

乔尼·米勒：就内观静修而言，冥想有助于提高刺激与反应之间心理空间的特定技能。

So if you have some degree of meditation practice instead of getting wrapped up in a certain emotion or we're even believing a certain thought pattern, there's usually an ability to kind of step back a little bit and see if what it's, so there definitely is a place for meditation.

因此，如果你有一定程度的冥想练习，而不是陷入某种情绪中，或者我们甚至相信某种思维模式，通常有一种能力退后一步，看看它是什么，所以肯定有冥想的地方。

But my viewpoint is that we've kind of over-indexed for mindfulness and meditation in over the last 20 years.

但我的观点是，在过去 20 年里，我们对正念和冥想的索引有点过高。

There's so many apps, there's so there's much talk about it and we've completely forgotten the body-based approaches.

有太多的应用程序，有太多关于它的讨论，我们完全忘记了基于身体的方法。

So I'm not saying don't meditate.

所以我并不是说不要冥想。

I think meditation for sure has its place, especially if your goal is more of the traditional waking up and seeing through the nature of the self, that's a different kind of path in my opinion.

我认为冥想肯定有它的地位，特别是如果你的目标更多的是传统的觉醒和看清自我的本质，我认为这是一种不同的道路。

But if you're looking to function more effectively and be more in tune with your body, then there's a whole different category of practices in this bottom up variety that we've touched on today.

但是，如果您希望更有效地发挥作用并与您的身体更加协调，那么我们今天谈到的这种自下而上的练习中有一种完全不同的练习类别。

Lenny: On the topic of bottom up, I imagine you're a big fan of this book that everyone always talks about, The Body Keeps Score, I think it's called.

莱尼：关于自下而上的话题，我想你是这本书的忠实粉丝，每个人都在谈论《The Body Keeps Score》，我想它的名字就叫《The Body Keeps Score》。

Would you recommend that book?

你会推荐那本书吗？

Is it connected in a large part to the stuff you talk about?

它在很大程度上与您谈论的内容有关吗？

What do you think of that book specifically?

您对那本书有何特别看法？

Because I hear about it all with him.

因为我和他一起听说了这一切。

Jonny Miller: Yeah, it's a good book.

乔尼·米勒：是的，这是一本好书。

It's by Bessal van der Kolk and there's another writer I think Peter Levine says, "The issues are in the tissues." Is basically the concept.

这是贝萨尔·范德科尔克（Bessal van der Kolk）写的，还有另一位作家，我认为彼得·莱文（Peter Levine）说过，“问题出在纸巾上。”基本上就是这个概念。

And this is the idea that we have these incomplete mobilization reflexes that are stored in our body and often held as tension.

我们的想法是，我们有这些不完整的动员反射，它们储存在我们的身体中，并且通常表现为紧张。

It's not strictly true to say that the trauma is in the body.

说创伤发生在身体上并不完全正确。

It is actually a cortical map in the brain which kind of tracks these things.

它实际上是大脑中的一个皮质图，用于跟踪这些事物。

But for kind of practical purposes, it looks and feels as if there is stored grief in my right hip or anger in my solar plexus, that's the experience that we have.

但出于某种实际目的，看起来和感觉起来好像我的右臀部储存着悲伤，或者我的太阳神经丛储存着愤怒，这就是我们的经历。

And the more that you become aware of these sensations and start to develop emotional fluidity essentially, the more that tension is released and the less reactive you become and the more emotional debt you pay off.

你越是意识到这些感觉并开始从本质上发展情绪的流动性，紧张感就越被释放，你的反应就越少，你偿还的情感债务就越多。

So I think The Body Keeps The Score, I think a more accurate way would be the body is the scorecard in a way.

所以我认为身体记录分数，我认为更准确的方法是身体在某种程度上是记分卡。

I think that's kind a slight reframe.

我认为这是一种轻微的重构。

And if you're interested in this, the work of Peter Levine, Waking the Tiger is the seminal book on this mobilization reflex stuff that I'm describing.

如果你对此感兴趣，彼得·莱文（Peter Levine）的著作《唤醒老虎》（Waking the Tiger）是一本关于我所描述的动员反射内容的开创性著作。

Lenny: I never need that part of it.

莱尼：我从来不需要那部分。

And basically it's actually kept in the brain, but it comes across as somewhere in the body.

基本上它实际上保存在大脑中，但它出现在身体的某个地方。

Lenny: Fascinating.

莱尼：令人着迷。

I want to spend a little time on a new segment that we have in this podcast that I call Contrarian Corner.

我想花一点时间讨论这个播客中的一个新部分，我称之为“逆向角”。

So let's visit Contrarian Corner, I feel like you'll have something interesting here.

那么我们来参观逆向角吧，我觉得你在这里会有一些有趣的东西。

So the question is there something that you have a very contrarian opinion about, something that you believe that a lot of other people really don't believe?

那么问题是，你对某些事情有非常相反的看法，你认为很多其他人并不相信的事情吗？

Jonny Miller: We've already touched on I'm not a big fan of talk based meditation, which will probably get me some comments I would imagine.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：我们已经谈到过，我不太喜欢基于谈话的冥想，这可能会让我得到一些我能想到的评论。

I'd say the other one that's worth mentioning is I think that we vastly underestimate the impact of burnout, particularly from a bottom line perspective.

我想说另一个值得一提的是我认为我们大大低估了倦怠的影响，特别是从底线的角度来看。

There was a research report that I did a couple of years ago where we interviewed these leaders and they'd all experienced burnout of some degree.

几年前我做了一份研究报告，我们采访了这些领导者，他们都经历过某种程度的倦怠。

And we said, if you were to estimate how much this costs your startup or business, what would you say?

我们说，如果您要估计这会给您的初创公司或企业带来多少成本，您会怎么说？

And the median response was a hundred thousand dollars, which I imagine is more than most people would think.

响应的中位数是十万美元，我想这比大多数人想象的要多。

Jonny Miller: And most people aren't actively investing in burnout insurance.

乔尼·米勒：大多数人并没有积极投资倦怠保险。

Like it's not something that's on many people's radar besides meditation practices and things like that.

除了冥想练习之类的事情之外，很多人都没有注意到它。

And I think part of the reason that the cost is higher is because there are these second and third order consequences of talent attrition, of opportunity costs, lost productivity, you lose great leaders, make shitty decisions in the run up to the burnout itself.

我认为成本较高的部分原因是人才流失、机会成本、生产力损失、失去优秀的领导者、在倦怠本身之前做出糟糕的决定等第二和第三级后果。

There's also this idea of emotional contagion, which there's some research from Wharton I believe, and they show that the leader or the CEO has a disproportionate impact or their emotional state has a disproportionate impact on the people in their team.

还有一种情绪传染的想法，我相信沃顿商学院有一些研究，它们表明领导者或首席执行官有不成比例的影响，或者他们的情绪状态对团队中的人有不成比例的影响。

So something I'd like to say is the nervous system of an organization is a reflection of the nervous system of the CEO.

所以我想说的是，一个组织的神经系统是CEO神经系统的反映。

And so I think that's just something which I would like to see talked about more.

所以我认为这只是我希望看到更多讨论的事情。

Lenny: Just on this idea of burnout, I don't think you're saying don't work really hard If you want to work really hard, it's that you need to maintain your body and mind and nervous system if you're working insanely hard.

莱尼：就倦怠这个概念而言，我不认为你是在说不要真的努力工作。如果你想真正努力工作，而是说如果你疯狂地努力工作，你需要保持你的身体、思想和神经系统。

If you're working long hours, feel free, but just know there's debt you're building up and you need to be doing things to pay off that debt as you're doing that.

如果你工作时间很长，请放心，但要知道你正在积累债务，并且在这样做时你需要做一些事情来偿还债务。

Jonny Miller: Precisely.

乔尼·米勒：没错。

It is very much like building technical debt in the early days of a startup.

这非常类似于在初创公司的早期建立技术债务。

It's worth doing, but just do it intentionally.

这是值得做的，但只是有意地去做。

Know that you're doing that and that.

知道你正在做那件事。

So let's say you work really hard for eight months, you give yourself a month or two off to really downshift.

假设你努力工作了八个月，你给自己一两个月的休息时间来真正放慢速度。

And it's also really worth building that nervous system capacity.

神经系统能力的建设也确实值得。

It's great to be able to push it really hard and focus and then combine it with that rest ethic as well.

能够真正努力并集中注意力，然后将其与休息道德结合起来，真是太好了。

So do NSDRs, kind of find a way to downshift so that way of working can be sustainable.

NSDR 也是如此，找到一种降档的方法，以便这种工作方式能够可持续。

Lenny: Jonny, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：乔尼，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：第一个问题，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jonny Miller: I actually had a sense this question was coming and I have the books with me here.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：我实际上预感到这个问题即将到来，我这里有书。

The first book is Constellations by David White.

第一本书是大卫·怀特的《星座》。

This is the book that I've gifted most to friends, I think more than any other book.

这是我送给朋友最多的一本书，我认为比任何其他书都多。

And he basically has 52 definitions of words like ambition is I think the first word.

他基本上有 52 个单词的定义，我认为第一个词是“野心”。

And his writing, it just blows me away.

还有他的写作，让我震惊。

I open this to a random page, read the definition, and it's probably affected me more than any other book.

我随机打开这本书，阅读定义，它对我的​​影响可能比任何其他书都大。

So that's one that I love.

这就是我所喜欢的。

15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which is I imagine has come up before in your podcast.

自觉领导力的 15 项承诺，我想这在您的播客中已经出现过。

This is by Jim Dethmer and Diana Chapman.

这是吉姆·德特默和戴安娜·查普曼的作品。

They have the Conscious Leadership Group.

他们有自觉的领导小组。

And this is basically, in my opinion, it's the best leadership book that I've come across and it combines practicality with a lot of great theory.

在我看来，这基本上是我读过的最好的领导力书籍，它结合了实用性和许多伟大的理论。

So this is awesome.

所以这太棒了。

And then finally, this is a bit out there, but Recapture the Rapture by Jamie Wheal, big fan of Jamie's work, Jamie's writing.

最后，这有点离谱，但是杰米·惠尔（Jamie Wheal）的《重获狂喜》（Recapture the Rapture）是杰米作品和杰米写作的忠实粉丝。

This is kind of three books in one.

这是三本书合一的书。

The beginning is addressing the meta-crisis and a lot of the craziness that we're seeing in the world.

首先是解决元危机和我们在世界上看到的许多疯狂现象。

The second chapter is very related to what we've been talking about, he calls it Hedonic Engineering and it's basically practices for shifting your state of consciousness.

第二章与我们一直在谈论的内容非常相关，他称之为享乐工程，它基本上是改变你的意识状态的实践。

And the third is Ethical Cult Building, which I'll leave that there.

第三个是伦理崇拜大厦，我将其留在那里。

.

。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

莱尼：你最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Jonny Miller: My wife and I love animations and we saw Kubo and the Two Strings recently, which was fantastic.

乔尼·米勒：我和我的妻子都喜欢动画，我们最近看了《久保与两根弦》，非常棒。

Just so, so great.

就是这样，太好了。

That and also Wolf Walkers, which was an Apple TV series.

还有《狼行者》，这是一部苹果电视连续剧。

Yeah, those have been my two favorite movies I've seen recently.

是的，这是我最近看过的最喜欢的两部电影。

Lenny: If you like animated content, check out the Scavengers Reign on HBO.

Lenny：如果您喜欢动画内容，请观看 HBO 的《Scavengers Reign》。

I've mentioned it on this podcast before, but it's incredible.

我之前在这个播客上提到过它，但它令人难以置信。

It's a TV show on HBO.

这是 HBO 的电视节目。

So I usually ask, do you have a favorite question you like to ask candidates you're interviewing?

所以我通常会问，你最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的问题是什么？

But I know you coach people, so to kind of turn this question a little bit around, do you have a favorite question you like to ask executive coaching clients that you work with?

但我知道你是教练，所以稍微扭转一下这个问题，你最喜欢问与你合作的高管教练客户的问题吗？

Jonny Miller: I stole this question from a guy Jerry Colonna who's here in Boulder, and the question is amazing.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：我从博尔德的杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）那里偷来了这个问题，这个问题太棒了。

It is so good.

真是太好了。

It's basically, how are you complicit in creating the conditions that you say you don't want?

基本上，你是如何同谋创造你所说的你不想要的条件的？

And so the word complicit there is key because it's not saying in what ways is it your fault, but it's like in what ways were you complicit in creating the conditions for anxiety, for building up emotional debt?

所以同谋这个词很关键，因为它并不是说在哪些方面是你的错，而是说你在哪些方面同谋创造了焦虑的条件，建立了情感债务？

And just the question kind of opens up the door to ways in which you are an active participant in creating these challenges in your life.

正是这个问题为你打开了大门，让你积极参与在生活中创造这些挑战。

And it's a really rich journal question or a question to explore with a friend, co-founder colleague.

这是一个非常丰富的期刊问题，或者是一个需要与朋友、联合创始人同事一起探讨的问题。

Lenny: I remember him sharing that on the Tim Ferriss podcast many years ago and it stuck with me and I often think of it, but I never am complicit of anything that goes wrong.

莱尼：我记得他多年前在蒂姆·费里斯播客上分享过这一点，它一直困扰着我，我经常想起它，但我从不参与任何出错的事情。

It's never my fault.

这从来都不是我的错。

He has nothing on me.

他对我一无所有。

Just kidding.

只是在开玩笑。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：你最近发现有没有一款你真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Jonny Miller: One is these blue blocking glasses.

乔尼·米勒：其中之一是防蓝光眼镜。

These are raw optics, blue blocker glasses.

这些是原始光学器件，蓝光阻挡眼镜。

They block out a hundred percent of blue light and they are a lifesaver if I'm ever going out of the house basically after dark, I'll wear these to drive.

它们可以阻挡 100% 的蓝光，如果我基本上在天黑后走出家门，它们就是我的救星，我会戴着它们开车。

I'll wear these to even dinners with friends sometimes.

有时我什至会穿着这些去和朋友共进晚餐。

And it basically means that I'm able to then sleep well that evening.

这基本上意味着我那天晚上可以睡个好觉。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

Jonny Miller: And then the other thing I'll briefly share, this came through the other day, you mentioned the vagus nerve earlier and that device, I have three devices here that are all vagus nerve stimulation devices.

乔尼·米勒：然后我将简要分享另一件事，这是前几天发生的，您之前提到了迷走神经和那个设备，我这里有三个设备，都是迷走神经刺激设备。

This one is called Neuro Sim.

这个叫做 Neuro Sim。

This one I believe is Pulsetto, and I think this is a Apollo Strap.

我认为这是 Pulsetto，我认为这是阿波罗表带。

I haven't used them that much yet, but they basically work by sending low level electrical stimulation directly to your vagus nerve.

我还没有经常使用它们，但它们的工作原理基本上是直接向迷走神经发送低水平的电刺激。

So this clips on your ear because the vagus nerve goes through the right side of the neck.

所以这个夹子会夹在你的耳朵上，因为迷走神经穿过脖子的右侧。

Same with Pulsetto.

与 Pulsetto 相同。

And I'm really curious to compare the effect of these versus say breathwork, humming, the other body-based practices.

我真的很好奇将这些练习与呼吸、哼唱和其他基于身体的练习的效果进行比较。

Obviously, you can do both at the same time, but I am just interested in playing.

显然，你可以同时做这两件事，但我只是对玩感兴趣。

So I wouldn't recommend them yet, but I think it's interesting that they exist.

所以我还不会推荐它们，但我认为它们的存在很有趣。

Lenny: How cool would that be?

莱尼：那该有多酷啊？

We just put these things on, we don't have to do anything else.

我们只要穿上这些东西就可以了，不需要做任何其他事情。

We just get up, slap on our device and life is amazing.

我们只要起床，打开设备，生活就会变得美妙。

Don't have to meditate, don't have to breathe in a different way.

不必冥想，不必以不同的方式呼吸。

I'm going to need to do this while I'm on the podcast just wear all these devices, see how that goes.

当我在播客上时，我需要戴上所有这些设备，看看效果如何。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Well, I guess somehow report back to us how these go because that feels really great.

好吧，我想以某种方式向我们报告这些进展如何，因为这感觉真的很棒。

Next question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends, either in work or in life?

下一个问题，您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作中还是在生活中，您经常回来与朋友分享？

Jonny Miller: State over story would be one which we've touched on.

乔尼·米勒（Jonny Miller）：我们已经谈到了状态重于故事。

Jonny Miller: And then I think the other one, which I think about often is I like to say, "Make generous assumptions." And by that I mean in any situation, what is the most generous story that I can tell of this person, of this situation?

乔尼·米勒：然后我认为我经常想到的另一件事是我喜欢说，“做出慷慨的假设。”我的意思是，在任何情况下，我能讲述的关于这个人、这种情况的最慷慨的故事是什么？

Not kind of naively fabricating something, but usually there's a spectrum of I can assume that they're a bad person and they did this thing out of spite, or maybe they had a bad day, maybe they have a lot of emotional debt.

不是天真地捏造什么，但通常我可以假设他们是一个坏人，他们这样做是出于恶意，或者也许他们度过了糟糕的一天，也许他们有很多情感债务。

There's there's many stories that can be told.

有很多故事可以讲。

And I usually try to have a practice of telling the most generous story that I can.

我通常会尝试尽可能讲述最慷慨的故事。

Lenny: I like that a lot.

莱尼：我非常喜欢这个。

Another way of describing that is just assume good intentions, which I often think about.

另一种描述方式是假设良好的意图，我经常想到这一点。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You seem extremely calm always, and very centered and stable.

你看起来总是非常冷静，而且非常集中和稳定。

What still gets you rilled up and unsettled, and what do you do when that happens?

是什么仍然让你感到兴奋和不安，当这种情况发生时你会做什么？

Jonny Miller: Well, I was nervous before this podcast, so I did some breathing practices and some stretching and some humming before jumping on here.

乔尼·米勒：嗯，在这个播客之前我很紧张，所以在跳到这里之前我做了一些呼吸练习、一些伸展运动和一些哼唱。

I still at times notice ways in which I'm conflict avoidant.

我有时仍然会注意到自己避免冲突的方式。

I've been working on it actively for a while, but there's a part of me that can sometimes avoid conflict.

我已经为此积极努力了一段时间，但我的一部分有时可以避免冲突。

And so I've actually noticed how there's a relationship between that and having a healthy relationship to anger.

所以我实际上注意到了这与保持健康的愤怒关系之间的关系。

So basically giving myself permission to express frustration, not at someone, but just allow it to be there.

所以基本上是允许自己表达沮丧，不是对某人，而是允许它存在。

And then from that place set better boundaries with my time with what I'm doing, saying no to certain things.

然后从那个地方开始，为我正在做的事情设定更好的界限，对某些事情说不。

I think that's the practice that's most alive for me right now.

我认为这对我来说是目前最有活力的实践。

Lenny: Jonny, you are awesome.

莱尼：乔尼，你太棒了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online and explore the things that you offer?

人们可以在哪里在线找到您并探索您提供的产品？

I think you teach a course, whatever else you offer, talk about that and then how can listeners be useful to you?

我认为你教授一门课程，无论你提供什么，谈论它，然后听众如何对你有用？

Jonny Miller: Yeah, well, this has been so much fun.

乔尼·米勒：是的，这真是太有趣了。

I am very active on Twitter or X.

我在 Twitter 或 X 上非常活跃。

My handle is Jonny Miller.

我的代言人是乔尼·米勒。

It's J-O-N-N-Y-M-1-L-L-E-R.

是 J-O-N-N-Y-M-1-L-L-E-R。

And yeah, if this was interesting or listeners would like to dive deeper, I teach a course.

是的，如果这很有趣或者听众想更深入地了解，我会教一门课程。

Our next cohort is running in the spring, the end of March.

我们的下一批将在春季，即三月底运行。

Applications are now open, and the website is nsmastery.com/lenny.

申请现已开放，网站为 nsmastery.com/lenny。

I've created a custom page and there's a $250 juicy discount for listeners if they want to sign up.

我创建了一个自定义页面，如果听众想要注册，可以享受 250 美元的超值折扣。

Lenny: I got to sign up for this myself.

莱尼：我必须自己报名参加。

I didn't know you're going to do that.

我不知道你会这么做。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

And NS Mastery stands for Nervous System Mastery.

NS Mastery 代表神经系统掌握。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Anything else?

还要别的吗？

And then the second question of how listeners can be useful to you.

然后是第二个问题，听众如何对你有用。

Jonny Miller: Well, firstly, if any of this resonates, I'd love to hear from you on Twitter or email me as well.

Jonny Miller：嗯，首先，如果这些能引起共鸣，我很想在 Twitter 上收到你的来信，或者也给我发电子邮件。

I can pass over my email and I would just love it if you experiment with this stuff.

我可以传递我的电子邮件，如果你尝试这些东西我会很高兴。

I love this idea of just being a scientist of life.

我喜欢成为一名生命科学家的想法。

So if anything that we've talked about resonates or any of the practices you want to try, just go out and try it and see how it feels and then tell me about it.

因此，如果我们讨论过的任何内容引起了共鸣，或者您想尝试任何实践，请出去尝试一下，看看感觉如何，然后告诉我。

That would be the greatest gift I think.

我认为那将是最好的礼物。

Lenny: And the best way to tell you about it is tweet at you or is there something else?

莱尼：告诉你这件事的最好方式就是发推文给你，或者还有其他什么吗？

Jonny Miller: Tweet at me or my email is jonny@curioushumans.com.

Jonny Miller：发推文给我，或者我的电子邮件是 jonny@curious humans.com。

So feel free to email me as well.

所以也请随时给我发电子邮件。

Lenny: All right, I'm going to use all these things.

莱尼：好吧，我要用所有这些东西。

Jonny, thank you so much for being here.

乔尼，非常感谢你来到这里。

You're awesome.

你太棒了。

I am excited for the show notes we're going to have to give people actual tools to use to become less anxious and nervous in their work and life.

我对节目笔记感到很兴奋，我们将不得不为人们提供实际的工具，以减少他们在工作和生活中的焦虑和紧张。

Thank you again for being here.

再次感谢您来到这里。

Jonny Miller: Amazing.

乔尼·米勒：太棒了。

Thanks so much, Lenny.

非常感谢，莱尼。

This was super fun.

这太有趣了。

Same for me.

对我来说也一样。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。