How a great founder becomes a great CEO | Jonathan Lowenhar (co-founder of Enjoy The Work)
Lenny Rachitsky: You basically spend all your time working with founders, and through that studying, you create frameworks and training and you use that in your work.
Lenny Rachitsky：基本上你所有的时间都花在与创始人一起工作上，通过学习，你创建了框架和培训，并在工作中使用它们。
I think that's what many, many founders are looking for is how do I avoid pain?
我想这就是很多很多创始人都在寻找的问题，那就是如何避免痛苦？
Jonathan Lowenhar: To be a founder is a state of being, it's an attitude.
Jonathan Lowenhar：成为创始人是一种存在状态，是一种态度。
To be a CEO is a craft.
成为首席执行官是一门手艺。
The more founders who can accept that those are two separate things and they're both equally important to build an ascendant startup, the better all of us will be.
越多的创始人能够接受这是两件不同的事情，而且它们对于建立一家蒸蒸日上的初创公司同样重要，我们所有人都会变得更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm kind of tired of talking about founder mode, but it feels like what you're describing is founder mode and manager mode.
Lenny Rachitsky：我有点厌倦谈论创始人模式，但感觉你所描述的是创始人模式和管理者模式。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Founder mode gets me angry.
Jonathan Lowenhar：创始人模式让我很生气。
That article just got me hot.
那篇文章让我很兴奋。
It really felt like an excuse.
确实感觉像是一个借口。
We were giving founders a permission to not learn the job.
我们允许创始人不学习这份工作。
It's not manager mode is bad, it's the greatest CEOs know when to calibrate which one is needed.
这并不是经理模式不好，而是最伟大的首席执行官知道何时需要调整哪种模式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something you talk about, there's these two phases to a startup journey and most people focus on the first phase.
Lenny Rachitsky：你谈到的，创业之旅有两个阶段，大多数人都关注第一阶段。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Phase one is build something people want to buy.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：第一阶段是打造人们想要购买的东西。
Phase two, the one we don't talk about is now you have to build a company around that thing people want to buy.
第二阶段，我们不谈论的是现在你必须围绕人们想要购买的东西建立一家公司。
Building a company is always the same.
建立一家公司总是一样的。
I don't care if it's MedTech or fintech or hardware or consumer.
我不在乎是医疗科技、金融科技、硬件还是消费者。
Lenny Rachitsky: You've come up with this methodology that you call the Magic Box paradigm that helps founders think about how to lead to a successful exit long-term.
Lenny Rachitsky：您提出了一种被称为“魔盒范式”的方法，可以帮助创始人思考如何实现长期成功退出。
Jonathan Lowenhar: This is a traditional sales process.
Jonathan Lowenhar：这是传统的销售流程。
You build a list of the companies that might want to acquire you, you ping them and you hope you get a deal.
你建立了一份可能想收购你的公司名单，然后联系他们，希望能达成交易。
Magic Box argues that the best outcomes for early-stage startups don't happen that way.
Magic Box 认为，早期初创公司的最佳结果并不是这样发生的。
You're never for sale.
你永远不会被出售。
In fact, you have seduced a buyer.
事实上，你已经吸引了买家。
They see the fantasy, they fall in love.
他们看到了幻想，他们坠入爱河。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jonathan Lowenhar.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Jonathan Lowenhar。
Jonathan runs a firm called Enjoy The Work, which I've heard amazing things about from so many people over the years.
乔纳森经营着一家名为“享受工作”的公司，多年来我从很多人那里听到了关于这家公司的令人惊叹的事情。
Their firm has a singular mission, to help founders become great CEOs.
他们的公司有一个独特的使命，那就是帮助创始人成为伟大的首席执行官。
They do this through a blend of mentoring and advising services, which are rooted in their study of how the best startups operate.
他们通过结合指导和建议服务来做到这一点，这些服务植根于他们对最佳初创公司如何运作的研究。
They take these lessons and fold them into frameworks and advice and training that they offer their CEOs, their insight, which you'll hear in our conversation, is that most founders don't come into the job knowing how to be a CEO, which includes learning how to do hiring, how to manage financials, figure out growth strategy, road mapping, planning, people management, and so many other skills that nobody teaches a founder.
他们吸取这些教训，并将其融入到为首席执行官提供的框架、建议和培训中，你会在我们的谈话中听到他们的见解，即大多数创始人在进入工作岗位时并不知道如何成为首席执行官，其中包括学习如何招聘、如何管理财务、制定增长战略、路线图、规划、人员管理，以及许多其他没有人教给创始人的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Jonathan shares the most common CEO failure modes that he and his team have seen, the Magic Box paradigm for successfully selling your startup, a bunch of advice for finding and hiring the best talent, a framework for building a repeatable go-to-market motion, why and how you should learn to trust your intuition more as a founder and so much more.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，乔纳森分享了他和他的团队见过的最常见的首席执行官失败模式、成功出售初创公司的魔盒范例、寻找和聘用最优秀人才的一系列建议、建立可重复的进入市场行动的框架、作为创始人为什么以及如何学会更多地相信自己的直觉等等。
We could have gone on for so many more hours.
我们本来可以继续走很多个小时。
Maybe he'll be back to share more advice.
也许他会回来分享更多建议。
If you're a founder or hope to be a founder one day, this episode is for you.
如果您是创始人或希望有一天成为创始人，那么这一集适合您。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Jonathan Lowenhar.
接下来，我为您带来乔纳森·洛温哈 (Jonathan Lowenhar)。
Jonathan, thank you so much for being here.
乔纳森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast,
欢迎来到播客，
Lenny Rachitsky: So am I.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我也是。
The reason I'm excited to have you in this podcast is that you basically spend all your time working with founders, and through that studying, what causes them pain, what causes them to fail, what causes them to struggle, and then you take that and you create frameworks and training and you use that in your work with founders, and I think that's what many, many founders are looking for is how do I avoid pain?
我很高兴你能加入这个播客，因为你基本上把所有的时间都花在与创始人一起工作上，通过研究，是什么导致了他们的痛苦，是什么导致了他们的失败，是什么导致了他们的挣扎，然后你利用它，创建了框架和培训，并在与创始人的工作中使用它，我认为这就是很多很多创始人正在寻找的就是如何避免痛苦？
How do I avoid these things that I'm going to probably run into?
我该如何避免这些我可能会遇到的事情？
To build on that, briefly, can you just help people understand what it is you do, what it is your organization does with founders, how you work with founders?
在此基础上，简单地说，你能否帮助人们了解你在做什么、你的组织与创始人一起做什么、你如何与创始人合作？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Yeah, thank you.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔： 是的，谢谢。
I'll tell a bit of origin story that I think ends up answering that question.
我将讲述一些我认为最终可以回答这个问题的起源故事。
Jonathan Lowenhar: I had run a bunch of different types of companies and they were really different ones.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我经营过许多不同类型的公司，它们确实是不同的。
I ran a big division for a public company, then I was a private equity CEO, then I did back-to-back startups.
我曾为一家上市公司管理一个大部门，然后担任私募股权首席执行官，然后又连续创办了几家初创公司。
The first one didn't get very far, but we sold it, and the second one got really far.
第一个并没有走多远，但我们卖掉了它，第二个走得很远。
When I left the second one, I was like many founders, grossly unhealthy, 25 pounds overweight, wasn't sleeping enough, all the things.
当我离开第二家公司时，我就像许多创始人一样，健康状况极差，超重 25 磅，睡眠不足，诸如此类。
I took a few months to get healthy and then reflect on those parts of my career.
我花了几个月的时间才恢复健康，然后反思我职业生涯的这些部分。
One of the things that I noticed at the time was all of those companies, when they got to a good place, when they started to run well, they were all run well in the same way.
我当时注意到的一件事是，所有这些公司，当它们到达一个好的位置，当它们开始运行良好时，它们都以同样的方式运行良好。
How could this be?
怎么会这样？
How could public company, private equity, startups, early stage, growth stage, when they were run well, they were all run well the same way?
上市公司、私募、初创公司，早期、成长期，跑得好的时候，怎么可能都跑得好呢？
Jonathan Lowenhar: I started to obsess about this question, and what it led me to realize is that every well-run company has a rhythm.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我开始着迷于这个问题，它让我意识到，每一个经营良好的公司都有一个节奏。
It's unmistakable, you can't miss it.
这是明确无误的，你不能错过它。
You can't not see it.
你不可能看不到它。
You just spend a couple of days through a spy cam watching a business, you'll see the pattern.
你只要花几天时间通过间谍摄像头观察一家企业，你就会看到这个模式。
How come some startups get there and some don't?
为什么有的初创公司能够实现这一目标，而有的却没有？
How does a founder learn the rhythm?
创始人如何掌握节奏？
How do they learn how to run a company well?
他们如何学习如何经营好一家公司？
I started to ask investors obsessively, and I asked them, Lenny, I asked them all three questions, same three over and over and over again.
我开始着迷地问投资者，我问他们，莱尼，我问了他们所有三个问题，同样的三个问题一遍又一遍。
Jonathan Lowenhar: First question was, well, describe to me your ideal founder.
Jonathan Lowenhar：第一个问题是，请向我描述一下您理想的创始人。
What's a great founder?
什么是伟大的创始人？
The answers universally were the same.
普遍的答案都是一样的。
Investors would use words that meant grit and tenacity and courage and insight, and I'd say, "Great.
投资者会使用意味着毅力、坚韧、勇气和洞察力的词语，我会说，“太棒了。
Question number two, describe to me a great startup CEO," and they use none of those words.
第二个问题，向我描述一位伟大的初创公司首席执行官，”但他们没有使用这些词。
How can that possibly be true?
这怎么可能是真的？
Instead, they describe skills.
相反，他们描述技能。
This is a person who knows how to build stuff and sell stuff and recruit people and raise capital and organize humans and financially plan.
这个人知道如何建造东西、销售东西、招募人员、筹集资金、组织人员和财务计划。
Question number three, my final one, well, how does a founder learn those skills while doing the job?
第三个问题，我的最后一个问题，创始人如何在工作时学习这些技能？
I got blank fucking stares, over and over again.
我一次又一次地被他妈的茫然的目光注视着。
It led me down this path that I'm now 10 years into with my colleagues of, well, how do we help founders learn those skills so that their venture investors don't fire them, so that they can actually go build whatever company they want to build and stay in the job for as long as they want to stay in the job?
它引导我走上了这条路，现在我和我的同事们已经走过了 10 年，我们如何帮助创始人学习这些技能，这样他们的风险投资者就不会解雇他们，这样他们就可以真正去建立他们想建立的任何公司，并且只要他们想留在工作岗位就可以一直留在工作岗位上？
That's origin, that's what got me going.
这就是起源，这就是我前进的动力。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。
Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?
厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？
With all the tools you need in one simple-to-use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.
通过在一个简单易用的平台中提供您所需的所有工具，Pendo 可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。
Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.
此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。
First, Pendo's built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.
首先，Pendo 围绕产品分析构建，了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。
Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.
接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。
Then Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.
然后 Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: The new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.
Lenny Rachitsky：Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。
I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.
如今有超过 10,000 家公司在使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。
Visit Pendo.io/Lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.
立即访问 Pendo.io/Lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。
PS, you want to take your product-led know-how a step further?
PS，您想进一步提升以产品为主导的专业知识吗？
Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by talk product experts and designed to help you grow in advance in your career.
查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由演讲产品专家主持，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中取得进步。
Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at Pendo.io/Lenny.
立即访问 Pendo.io/Lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。
I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.
我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。
Hi, Christina.
嗨，克里斯蒂娜。
Christina Gilbert: Yes, thank you for having me on, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的，谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?
Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？
I know you now work with some of my favorite companies, like Ramp, Vanta, Scale and Watershed.
我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta、Scale 和 Watershed。
I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.
我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。
Christina Gilbert: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.
Christina Gilbert：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。
We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.
我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。
We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.
我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。
Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema and not just to build it but also to maintain it forever?
Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西并且不仅构建它而且永远维护它该有多好？
Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。
We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of bad records.
我们已经听过许多因少数不良记录而导致多天停电的恐怖故事。
We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.
我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。
We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.
我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。
Christina, thank you for joining us and if you want to learn more, head on over to OneSchema.co. That's OneSchema.co. There's obviously this new meme of founder mode.
Christina，感谢您加入我们，如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 OneSchema.co。这就是 OneSchema.co。显然有创始人模式的新模因。
I'm kind of tired of talking about founder mode, but it feels like what you're describing is founder mode and manager mode.
我有点厌倦谈论创始人模式，但感觉你所描述的是创始人模式和管理者模式。
You basically have to be good at both.
基本上你必须两者都擅长。
This latter part is almost manager mode.
后一部分几乎就是经理模式。
Is that a way to think about it?
这是一种思考方式吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Yes.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：是的。
Founder mode gets me angry.
创始人模式让我很生气。
That article just got me hot.
那篇文章让我很兴奋。
Jonathan Lowenhar: It really felt like an excuse.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：这确实感觉像是一个借口。
We were giving founders a permission to not learn the job.
我们允许创始人不学习这份工作。
If we think about an ascending startup, there's this phase of I have to invent something.
如果我们考虑一家正在崛起的初创公司，那么在这个阶段我必须发明一些东西。
I now have to figure out how to get my customer in front of this invention and see if it works, and then I have to build a business model around that to see if there's some repeatable way to attract, win, deploy my customer and thrill them with whatever the solution is.
我现在必须弄清楚如何让我的客户接触到这项发明，看看它是否有效，然后我必须围绕它建立一个商业模型，看看是否有一些可重复的方法来吸引、赢得、部署我的客户，并用任何解决方案让他们兴奋。
Okay, now I have to go build an enormous amount of demand and then I have to build up an operation that can handle all that demand.
好吧，现在我必须去建立大量的需求，然后我必须建立一个可以处理所有这些需求的操作。
Oh, and by the way, at some point, figure out how to turn positive revenues into positive cash flows.
哦，顺便说一句，在某个时候，弄清楚如何将正收入转化为正现金流。
The idea that the founder who's writing code by themselves doesn't have to advance their skills to learn how to do all those things, and that in fact what the article even implies is learning how to do those other things is a negative is bananas to me.
自己编写代码的创始人不必提高自己的技能来学习如何做所有这些事情，事实上，这篇文章甚至暗示学习如何做其他事情是一种消极的想法，这对我来说是香蕉。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The things required to launch a company are not the same as grow a company as scale a company as exit a company, and the best startup CEOs learn them all along the way.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：创办一家公司所需的东西与发展公司、扩大公司规模和退出公司所需的东西不同，最好的初创公司首席执行官会一路学习这些东西。
There are lots of ways to learn them.
有很多方法可以学习它们。
I'm not suggesting there's only one path, but founder mode was almost an excuse not to.
我并不是说只有一条路，但创始人模式几乎是不这样做的借口。
I do think what's unique about a founder that felt perhaps where that article was trying to go is that unlike the professional mercenary CEO that gets dropped in, the founder knows everything about what built this company and they can drop in at the most granular level and play anywhere.
我确实认为，一位创始人的独特之处在于，他可能觉得这篇文章想要表达的意思是，与介入的职业唯利是图的首席执行官不同，创始人知道关于建立这家公司的一切，他们可以在最细粒度的层面上介入并在任何地方发挥作用。
They can drop into a product feature, they can drop into a customer conversation or a partner conversation or with a long-time employee that's still in IC and be impactful and then rise back up if they've gone the training and get back into a cockpit to run the company again.
他们可以投入到产品功能中，他们可以投入到客户对话或合作伙伴对话中，或者与仍在 IC 中的长期员工进行对话，并具有影响力，然后如果他们接受了培训，就可以重新站起来，重新回到驾驶舱来再次运营公司。
That's to me the distinction.
这对我来说就是区别。
It's not manager mode is bad, it's the greatest CEOs know when to calibrate which one is needed.
这并不是经理模式不好，而是最伟大的首席执行官知道何时需要调整哪种模式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I'm glad we got there.
我很高兴我们到达了那里。
I wasn't planning to talk about founder mode, but I think this is really helpful for folks to hear that are founders and people working for founders too.
我本来不打算谈论创始人模式，但我认为这对于人们了解创始人和为创始人工作的人来说确实很有帮助。
Along these same lines, you have a really helpful and really funny also mental model for how to think about common failure modes of founders.
沿着同样的思路，你有一个非常有用且非常有趣的心理模型，可以帮助你思考创始人的常见失败模式。
You have these labels that I love, and this is actually the first thing I heard about Enjoy The Work is these labels that you guys use, and you also, a similar mental model for failure modes for a startup.
你们有我喜欢的这些标签，这实际上是我听到的关于“享受工作”的第一件事就是你们使用的这些标签，而且你们也对初创公司的失败模式有类似的心理模型。
Can you just share these modes that you've come up with?
您能分享一下您想到的这些模式吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: We do take a bit of a comical approach to some of this.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们确实采取了一些滑稽的方式来处理其中的一些问题。
As I've shared with you previously, the name of our company is not an accident.
正如我之前与您分享的，我们公司的名称并非偶然。
If we can't be playful, we can take the work seriously and not ourselves, so we do fuck around quite a bit.
如果我们不能玩得开心，我们就可以认真地对待工作而不是自己，所以我们确实会玩得很开心。
I think if I would separate failure modes for companies versus CEOs for a minute, the company ones are not quite as comedic, but they are ones we see all the time.
我想如果我把公司的失败模式和首席执行官的失败模式分开一分钟，公司的失败模式并不那么喜剧，但它们是我们一直看到的。
One is you chose the wrong market.
一是你选择了错误的市场。
I don't think we need to belabor that one.
我认为我们没有必要对这一点进行过多的阐述。
Lots of your prior guests have talked about the importance of getting that part right or nothing else really matters.
您之前的许多客人都谈到了正确处理该部分的重要性，否则其他任何事情都不重要。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Second, back to what we were discussing a minute ago, build something people want to buy, got to go build the right thing.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：其次，回到我们一分钟前讨论的内容，打造人们想要购买的东西，必须去打造正确的东西。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Third one, founder's function.
第三，创始人的职能。
We like to joke that more companies die from suicide than homicide, and it's grim, but also if the two or three people in charge of the business can't get along, nothing else matters.
我们喜欢开玩笑说，死于自杀的公司比死于他杀的公司还多，这很严峻，但如果业务负责人两三个人相处不好，其他的都无所谓了。
It's all going to break apart.
一切都会崩溃。
Then fourth, execution, and execution now leads back to CEO.
第四，执行，执行现在又回到了首席执行官。
Okay, so now we have a bunch of playful ones here.
好的，现在我们这里有很多好玩的。
We have the robot CEO, who believes emotion should not ever exist at a startup, at which point we train them on a very simple formula.
我们有机器人首席执行官，他认为初创公司不应该存在情感，此时我们用一个非常简单的公式来训练他们。
Emotions are messy, humans have emotions, startups need humans, therefore startups are messy.
情感是混乱的，人类有情感，初创公司需要人类，因此初创公司是混乱的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how engineering-oriented that advice is, which makes sense for robots.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个以工程为导向的建议，这对机器人来说很有意义。
Yeah.
是的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Also, a little bit more graceful of an answer there is also our CEOs want urgency and passion and excitement from their teams.
乔纳森·洛文哈尔：此外，更优雅的答案是，我们的首席执行官希望他们的团队有紧迫感、激情和兴奋。
They want them working enormously hard for below market comp more often than not with this promise of equity that might return value five or 10 or 12 years later.
他们希望他们经常以低于市场水平的薪酬努力工作，并承诺在五年、十年或十二年后可能会带来回报。
They want them to bring all of that emotion, but they're supposed to figure out how to surgically cut off the emotions that are inconvenient.
他们希望他们带来所有这些情绪，但他们应该弄清楚如何通过手术切断那些不方便的情绪。
That's the robot CEO who believes that we can just have several robots working for us and you just press a button and they do a thing.
这位机器人首席执行官相信，我们可以让几个机器人为我们工作，你只需按一个按钮，它们就会做一件事。
Second one is a pleaser CEO.
第二个是一位讨人喜欢的首席执行官。
This is the person who is far more concerned with being liked than running a business, so they can't tell anyone hard news.
这种人更关心被人喜欢而不是经营企业，所以他们不能告诉任何人硬消息。
They can't break ties, they want a consensus on everything, and that's not possible.
他们无法打破联系，他们希望在所有事情上达成共识，但这是不可能的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: If you have a group of thoughtful people working for you, they're going to fight, they're going to debate and you want them to.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：如果你有一群有思想的人为你工作，他们就会战斗，他们就会辩论，而你希望他们这样做。
Then at some point you have to call it and say, "No, we're going left not right." Or, "The two of you need to go get in a room and deal with something." Or, "Hey, the way you just showed up is not the way I want you to show up." The pleaser CEO won't do any of that.
然后在某个时候你必须打电话给它并说：“不，我们要向左走，而不是向右走。”或者，“你们两个需要进一个房间去处理一些事情。”或者，“嘿，你刚才出现的方式并不是我希望你出现的方式。”讨好型的首席执行官不会做这些事。
They will simply hide and pray It goes away and it won't go away.
他们只会躲起来并祈祷它消失，但它不会消失。
Next one is a perfectionist CEO.
下一位是一位完美主义首席执行官。
I'd like to say that these are the CEOs with the most beautiful product to be delivered minutes before they file for bankruptcy.
我想说的是，这些首席执行官在申请破产前几分钟交付了最漂亮的产品。
This is the person who is far more concerned with being right and believing that there's always a right answer than just moving forward.
这种人更关心自己是否正确，并相信总有正确的答案，而不仅仅是继续前进。
Jonathan Lowenhar: It creates two problems in a business.
Jonathan Lowenhar：这会给企业带来两个问题。
One is you're just slow and the other one is you'll never take any bets because you will build a team that realizes the CEO is not allowed to be wrong, so you can't disagree, you can't use intuition, you can't use gut.
一是你只是速度慢，二是你永远不会下任何赌注，因为你将建立一个团队，意识到首席执行官不允许犯错，所以你不能不同意，你不能使用直觉，你不能使用直觉。
Everything has to be utterly factual and that is simply not possible.
一切都必须完全真实，而这是不可能的。
In early-stage startups, you have more questions than you do answers.
在早期创业公司中，你的问题多于答案。
Everything is circumstantial.
一切都是有条件的。
It's not like watching CSI entrepreneurship and you get to see a video to say, "Oh, look, the guy did it." No, we have a bunch of little data points you have to come to a conclusion.
这不像观看《CSI 创业》，你会在观看视频时说：“哦，看，这家伙做到了。”不，我们有一堆小数据点，你必须得出结论。
The next one is the angry CEO.
下一位是愤怒的首席执行官。
Jonathan Lowenhar: I had a founder of mine a bunch of years ago and we were seeing a pattern across the leadership team and he and I get on the phone one morning and I said, "I have a theory for you.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：几年前，我有一位创始人，我们在领导团队中看到了一种模式，有一天早上我和他通电话，我说：“我有一个理论给你。
It might be a story, I might be wrong, but I want to share." He said, " Okay." I said, "I think you wake up in the morning angry and you don't know it, and then you get to the office and you beat the crap out of the first employee that crosses paths with you over something utterly unrelated because you're angry.
这可能是一个故事，我可能是错的，但我想分享。”他说：“好吧。”我说：“我认为你早上醒来时很生气，但你自己并不知道，然后你到了办公室，因为你生气，你把第一个因为一些完全不相关的事情与你相遇的员工打了一顿。
You realize that a few hours later and you apologize and your team hasn't quit yet because they believe you're a good human who doesn't have good self-control." Then I shared with him, "And you just had your first child.
几个小时后你意识到这一点，你道歉了，你的团队还没有退出，因为他们相信你是一个没有良好自我控制能力的好人。”然后我告诉他：“你刚刚有了你的第一个孩子。
My guess is because I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a therapist, that you are modeling something that's happened in your life.
我的猜测是因为我不是心理学家，也不是治疗师，所以你正在模拟你生活中发生的事情。
Is this something you want to change?"
这是你想要改变的事情吗？”
Jonathan Lowenhar: His answer is yes, and I said, "Great.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：他的回答是肯定的，我说：“太好了。
I have good news and bad news.
我有好消息和坏消息。
The good news is because you said yes, we can do something about it, and the bad news is I don't know what to fucking do.
好消息是因为你答应了，我们可以做点什么，坏消息是我他妈的不知道该怎么办。
That's not my job." The point being, no one wants to work for the angry person.
那不是我的工作。”关键是，没有人愿意为愤怒的人工作。
I don't care what the equity potential is worth, no one wants to work for that person, and the moment they see greener pastures elsewhere, they're leaving.
我不在乎股权潜力值多少钱，没有人愿意为那个人工作，当他们在其他地方看到更好的牧场时，他们就会离开。
The next one is the one that drives me particularly crazy, it's the laissez-faire CEO, who insanely believes that I can just hire great people and utterly ignore them and let markets take care of themselves and they will do all the right things.
下一个是让我特别疯狂的，是自由放任的首席执行官，他疯狂地相信我可以雇佣优秀的人才，完全忽视他们，让市场照顾自己，他们会做所有正确的事情。
I have never met anyone, Lenny, that didn't benefit from good management and the laissez-faire CEO believes that management is not required, and so what they ultimately find is they have really, really good people doing utterly disconnected things and goals are not achieved.
莱尼，我从来没有见过任何人没有从良好的管理中受益，而自由放任的首席执行官认为不需要管理，所以他们最终发现他们有非常非常优秀的人在做完全不相关的事情，而目标却没有实现。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Every CEO we can reductively reduce to one of two characters.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们可以将每一位首席执行官简化为两个角色之一。
They're either comfortable with the brake or comfortable with the accelerator.
他们要么对刹车感到满意，要么对油门感到满意。
The challenge with those who are comfortable with the brake, what I mean by that is they don't want to spend any money, so they're driving this beautiful sports car and they're just leaning on the brake the whole time.
对于那些对刹车感到满意的人来说，所面临的挑战是，我的意思是他们不想花任何钱，所以他们驾驶这辆漂亮的跑车，而他们只是一直靠在刹车上。
Yes, they won't run any money, and yes, they will also get lapped by everyone else and miss the opportunity.
是的，他们不会跑钱，是的，他们也会被其他人搭讪，错失机会。
Where their opportunity is, is where can you take bets?
他们的机会在哪里，你就可以在哪里下注？
Where can you actually downshift that car in such a way where you give yourself a chance in the market?
您可以在哪里真正降低汽车的档位，从而给自己在市场上带来机会？
Separate, those who ride the accelerator, we've all met this one.
分开来说，那些踩油门的人，我们都遇到过这个。
They're going to run out of money really fast, and this connects to one of our other challenging CEO types, the ready, fire, aim.
他们很快就会耗尽资金，这与我们另一种具有挑战性的首席执行官类型有关，即准备、开火、目标。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Most CEOs are really bad at planning and that's because there's this little-known secret in the Bay area, most CEOs have never run a business before.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：大多数首席执行官都不擅长规划，那是因为湾区有一个鲜为人知的秘密，大多数首席执行官以前从未经营过企业。
Planning doesn't have to be some heavy bureaucratic multi-month exercise that begins in August and ends in February, but a little bit of bottoms up planning to say, what are we trying to achieve?
规划不一定是从八月开始到二月结束的繁重的官僚主义的多月活动，而是一点点自下而上的计划，告诉我们，我们想要实现什么目标？
How do we quantify it?
我们如何量化它？
What resources are required?
需要什么资源？
What humans are going to do what?
人类要做什么？
How do we shorten feedback loops so we know in a week, in a month and two months, whether we're on the right trajectory?
我们如何缩短反馈循环，以便在一周、一个月和两个月后知道我们是否走在正确的轨道上？
The ready, fire, aim CEO says, "I don't want to do any of that because they're improvisational and they just want to take bets and they want to take shots," and that's what got the company started, and that's also what will have the company go bankrupt.
这位准备就绪、开火、瞄准的首席执行官说，“我不想做任何事情，因为他们是即兴发挥，他们只是想下注，他们想开枪”，这就是公司成立的原因，也是公司破产的原因。
The micromanager one is the opposite of laissez-faire.
事无巨细是自由放任的对立面。
They believe that no matter how many employees they have, they can do the job better.
他们相信，无论有多少员工，他们都能把工作做得更好。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The challenge with this one is it is massively disrespectful to those who work for you.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：这样做的挑战在于，它对为你工作的人非常不尊重。
We think that, and this is a bit insulting, that everyone that works for a founder can be fit into one or two chunks.
我们认为，这有点侮辱，每个为创始人工作的人都可以分成一两个部分。
They're either an adult or a child.
他们要么是成年人，要么是孩子。
I have a three-year-old, my little girl is amazing.
我有一个三岁的孩子，我的小女儿很棒。
I'm utterly in love.
我彻底恋爱了。
If she doesn't have a lot of structure and a lot of supervision, she's going to run into things, man.
如果她没有很多的结构和很多的监督，她就会遇到麻烦，伙计。
Into things, off things, through things, but adults don't need to be given utter instruction and watched all the time.
进入事物、脱离事物、通过事物，但成年人不需要一直受到彻底的指导和监视。
In fact, it needs to be the opposite.
事实上，它需要相反。
We agree on what success is, what resources are, and you let them go and they'll come back to you when they have questions.
我们就什么是成功、什么是资源达成一致，你让他们离开，当他们有问题时他们会回来找你。
The micromanager CEO doesn't see the difference between those two humans.
事无巨细的首席执行官看不到这两个人之间的区别。
They don't trust anybody and that's actually the thing under the thing under the thing, so they want to do everyone's work and that will succeed right up into the point everyone quits.
他们不信任任何人，这实际上是事情背后的事情，所以他们想做每个人的工作，并且会成功，直到每个人退出。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
Okay, so let me recap these labels that you have just for folks.
好吧，让我回顾一下你们为人们准备的这些标签。
I have them written down here.
我把它们写在这里了。
There's the robot CEO, perfectionist CEO, pleaser CEO, micromanager, laissez-faire, ready, fire, aim, riding the brake and then riding the gas, and as you said, the ever-popular angry CEO.
有机器人首席执行官、完美主义首席执行官、讨好型首席执行官、事无巨细、自由放任、准备、开火、瞄准、踩刹车然后踩油门，以及正如你所说的，最受欢迎的愤怒首席执行官。
Lenny Rachitsky: As people hear this, I imagine people self-identify a few of these, like I have some of this, I have some of that, and it's not like black or white.
Lenny Rachitsky：当人们听到这个时，我想人们会自我认同其中的一些，就像我有一些这个，我有一些那个，而且它不像黑或白。
No one is like, "I'm a 100% robot CEO, and I need to fix that." It's like a pie chart kind of, I don't know, what's a visual of this?
没有人会说，“我是一位 100% 机器人首席执行官，我需要解决这个问题。”它就像一个饼图，我不知道它的视觉效果如何？
Everyone's got a little bit of this, basically.
基本上每个人都有一点这样的经历。
Jonathan Lowenhar: That's right.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：没错。
I enjoy giving this talk on stage and watching different founders in the audience cringe at different moments, but it doesn't mean that they're all one or the other.
我喜欢在舞台上发表演讲，并看着观众中不同的创始人在不同时刻感到畏缩，但这并不意味着他们都是其中之一。
If they were all one of these and then didn't want to even accept the possibility that there's a little bit of a lot of these that they could work on, they're probably not coachable and they're not going to be in the talk anyway.
如果他们都是这些人之一，然后甚至不想接受他们可以做的事情的可能性，那么他们可能无法接受指导，而且无论如何他们也不会参与讨论。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's like I imagine each of these is very particular and it's this journey you go on to work on yourself.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想象中的每一个都是非常特别的，而这正是你要为自己努力的旅程。
Let me just ask, what's the most common issue that you've found across these labels of type CEOs?
我想问一下，您在这些 CEO 类型标签中发现的最常见问题是什么？
What's the most common one and what do you often recommend someone to work on specifically to help them through that?
最常见的是什么？您经常建议某人专门做什么来帮助他们解决这个问题？
Jonathan Lowenhar: I think ready, fire, aim is the most common that we've seen, and that has been an affliction that's been growing in the last number of years.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我认为准备、开火、瞄准是我们见过的最常见的情况，而且这种困扰在过去几年中一直在增长。
It wasn't long ago that CEOs could paper over poor execution with easy access to capital.
不久前，首席执行官们还可以通过轻松获得资金来掩盖糟糕的执行力。
Suddenly, over the last number of years, we're expecting founders to be better operators.
突然之间，在过去的几年里，我们期望创始人成为更好的运营商。
Better operators means eventually being on a path when more cash comes into the business and out of the business.
更好的运营商意味着最终能够走上一条有更多现金流入和流出业务的道路。
That doesn't happen by accident.
这并非偶然发生。
The ready, fire, aim CEO has probably suffered this pain where they took lots and lots of bets.
准备就绪、火力全开、瞄准目标的首席执行官可能已经遭受过这种痛苦，因为他们下了很多很多的赌注。
Maybe they measured the outcome after the fact and they were wrong and they were wrong and they were wrong in ways that were expensive, and they've raised their hand to say, "I see it.
也许他们在事后衡量了结果，他们错了，他们错了，而且他们错的方式代价高昂，他们举手说：“我明白了。
I want to get better at this." Basic, basic business design and business planning is not some corporate effort.
我想在这方面做得更好。”基本的、基本的商业设计和商业规划不是一些企业的努力。
It's some thoughtful exercise that starts with what are we working backwards from?
这是一些深思熟虑的练习，从我们从什么开始向后工作？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Because in any given time, Lenny, companies are working backwards from one of four things, whether they like it or not.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：莱尼，因为在任何特定时间，公司都在从四件事中的一件开始倒退，无论他们喜欢与否。
I am working backwards from an exit.
我正在从出口向后工作。
I'm working backwards from a next fundraise.
我正在从下一次筹款开始倒推。
I'm working backwards from profitability or I'm working backwards from winding down.
我正在从盈利能力倒退，或者从倒闭倒退。
We don't talk about the fourth one that much, but I got to choose one.
我们不太谈论第四个，但我必须选择一个。
I got to choose the top of the mountain.
我必须选择山顶。
More often than not, they're choosing a fundraise.
他们通常会选择筹款。
Then we'll ask that founder, you know your market, you know your investors, you know the next set of investors, we've done some intel.
然后我们会问那位创始人，你了解你的市场，你了解你的投资者，你了解下一批投资者，我们已经做了一些情报。
What has to be true to unlock the next fundraise?
必须满足什么条件才能解锁下一次筹款？
That's a qualitative and quantitative answer, but we write it down.
这是一个定性和定量的答案，但我们把它写下来。
We need to get better at go to market.
我们需要更好地进入市场。
We need to land our first partner.
我们需要找到我们的第一个合作伙伴。
We need to launch next iteration of the product and show this level of efficacy, engagement, what have you.
我们需要推出产品的下一个迭代，并展示这种水平的功效、参与度等等。
Can we codify that?
我们可以将其编入法典吗？
Yes.
是的。
Can we talk through what actions would be required on what cadence to unlock that quantified set of results?
我们能否讨论一下需要采取哪些行动、以什么样的节奏来解锁这组量化的结果？
Yes.
是的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: ...
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：...
that quantified set of results?
那一组量化的结果？
Yes.
是的。
Do we understand what resources would be required to do those things?
我们是否了解做这些事情需要哪些资源？
Recognize we might have to squint through some of it, but again, the answer is yes.
认识到我们可能不得不眯着眼睛浏览其中的一些内容，但同样，答案是肯定的。
now aimed.
现在瞄准了。
If we have a culture that has some accountability, that has a communication architecture, so there's some rituals about how we meet and how we share information and how we talk through problems, and how we work through bottlenecks, well, now we have a plan and now we have accountability.
如果我们有一种有一定责任感的文化，有一个沟通架构，那么就有一些关于我们如何见面、如何共享信息、如何讨论问题以及如何克服瓶颈的仪式，那么，现在我们有了一个计划，现在我们有了责任。
I now no longer have to just guess all the time.
我现在不再需要一直猜测。
And this only works for the CEO who says, "My improvisational efforts got me here, but I don't think they'll get me there."
这只适用于首席执行官，他会说：“我的即兴努力让我到达了这里，但我认为他们不会让我到达那里。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: There's a guy I worked for a long time ago, and he had this phrase...
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：很久以前我曾为一个人工作过，他有这样一句话......
He had like seven or eight phrases, he would use them over and over and over again.
他大概有七八个短语，他会一遍又一遍地使用它们。
It was hard not to commit them all to memory, and one of them was, "If you keep doing what you're doing, you keep getting what you're getting." And for the ready, fire, aim folks who realize the weakness of that at scale, the way to counteract that, is to start with good planning.
很难不将它们全部牢记在心，其中之一是，“如果你继续做你正在做的事情，你就会不断得到你正在得到的东西。”对于那些意识到大规模的弱点的准备好、开火、瞄准的人来说，解决这个问题的方法就是从良好的计划开始。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that's the most common type of CO, when with Founder Mode, it feels like it just accelerates that further.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这是最常见的 CO 类型，当使用创始人模式时，感觉它只会进一步加速这种情况。
The whole meme of Founder Mode, which are what makes you upset.
创始人模式的整个模因，这就是让你心烦意乱的原因。
Makes sense.
有道理。
Great.
伟大的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so I love that you talked about exiting as basically one of these four working backwards paths, because that's where I wanted to go next.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我喜欢你所说的退出基本上是这四种反向工作路径之一，因为这就是我下一步想要去的地方。
I want to talk about some of these specific frameworks and skills and methodologies that you teach, and one of them...
我想谈谈您教授的一些具体框架、技能和方法，其中之一......
I want to almost go to the end of selling your company.
我想快要结束出售你的公司了。
And the reason I'm excited to talk about this, is if you think about, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels like most startups that succeed end up selling their company.
我之所以很高兴谈论这个，是因为如果你想一想，并告诉我我是否错了，但感觉大多数成功的初创公司最终都会卖掉他们的公司。
That's the most likely success, right?
这是最有可能成功的，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: Great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Yeah, because the other option is IPO or just run this privately forever.
是的，因为另一个选择是首次公开募股或永远私下运营。
Or fail, basically, and fold.
或者基本上失败，然后弃牌。
So of the successful options, the most common is selling.
因此，在成功的选择中，最常见的是出售。
At the same time, founders have never done this before, they don't know what they're doing.
与此同时，创始人以前从未这样做过，他们不知道自己在做什么。
The other side, often, has done it many times, and so it's a pretty treacherous and scary and high-stakes thing to do and to learn on the spot.
另一方通常已经做过很多次了，所以当场做和学习是一件非常危险、可怕和高风险的事情。
And you've come up with this methodology that you call the Magic Box Paradigm that I love, that helps founders think about how to lead to a successful exit long term.
你提出了一种我喜欢的称为“魔盒范式”的方法，它可以帮助创始人思考如何实现长期成功的退出。
Can you talk about what this is?
你能谈谈这是什么吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: I can, and I want to give credit where it's due.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我可以，而且我想给予应得的信任。
There's a book by this name, it's called Magic Box Paradigm, written by an independent banker named Ezra Roizen.
有一本名叫《Magic Box Paradigm》的书，作者是一位名叫埃兹拉·罗伊森 (Ezra Roizen) 的独立银行家。
And the book's fantastic, and Ezra is fantastic.
这本书太棒了，以斯拉也太棒了。
Jonathan Lowenhar: What we've done, is we've operationalized it so that we could teach founders over, and over, and over again.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们所做的就是将其付诸实施，以便我们可以一遍又一遍地教导创始人。
If the founder wants to hire a banker for this particular process, because we're not bankers, we're not BD, we don't get paid that way, we're teachers.
如果创始人想雇佣一名银行家来完成这个特定的流程，因为我们不是银行家，我们不是 BD，我们不会以这种方式获得报酬，我们是老师。
But if wanted to hire a banker, go hire Ezra.
但如果想聘请银行家，那就聘请以斯拉。
But the methodology itself is a inversion for how venture and venture boards have thought about startups being ready for sale for a long, long time.
但这种方法本身就颠覆了风险投资和风险投资委员会长期以来对初创公司准备出售的看法。
It's utterly counter to so much advice that founders have heard.
这与创始人听到的很多建议完全相反。
There are two ways you can get acquired.
您可以通过两种方式获得。
This is purposely reductive.
这是故意减少的。
One is you put up a for-sale sign.
一是你张贴了待售标志。
This is a traditional sales process.
这是一个传统的销售流程。
You build a list of the companies that might want to acquire you.
您列出了可能想要收购您的公司的名单。
You figure out the categories of buyers, the companies there, the contact list within that.
您可以找出买家的类别、那里的公司以及其中的联系人列表。
You ping them and say, "We're open to a transaction," or some euphemism the like.
你给他们发信息并说：“我们愿意进行交易”，或者一些委婉的说法之类的。
You contact them and say, "I'll give you some information now.
你联系他们并说：“我现在给你一些信息。
Sign an NDA.
签署保密协议。
Give me an indication of interest by this date." And you work through a process, and you pray you have more than one person at the end of the game, try and ratchet them up, sign a term sheet.
在此日期之前请告诉我您有兴趣。”你完成一个过程，你祈祷在游戏结束时你有不止一个人，尝试让他们升级，签署一份投资意向书。
They will then re-trade along the way, right up until the point you die and you hope you get a deal done.
然后他们会一路重新交易，直到你死了，你希望能达成交易。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And it's one that often will just hit the nervous system of any founder that's been through it a couple of times.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：对于经历过几次这种情况的创始人来说，这往往会触动他们的神经系统。
Because man, is it a fraught exercise?
因为伙计，这是一个令人担忧的练习吗？
What Magic Box argues, is that the best outcomes for early-stage startups don't happen that way.
Magic Box 认为，早期初创公司的最佳结果并不是这样发生的。
You're never for sale.
你永远不会被出售。
In fact, you have seduced a buyer.
事实上，你已经吸引了买家。
You have brought someone in.
你已经带人进来了。
And there are three stages to Magic Box work.
Magic Box 的工作分为三个阶段。
There is learn the fantasy, there's prove the fantasy, and there's quantify the fantasy.
有学习幻想，有证明幻想，还有量化幻想。
Jonathan Lowenhar: All right, so what the hell do I mean by a fantasy?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：好吧，那么我说的幻想到底是什么意思呢？
You're an early-stage startup, and you meet a company that is in your space, in your vertical, what have you, and they're much more advanced than you.
你是一家处于早期阶段的初创公司，你遇到了一家在你的领域、你的垂直领域、你所拥有的公司，而且他们比你先进得多。
It's a large business.
这是一项大生意。
Generally speaking, another oversimplification here, large companies are interested in small companies because they're technology.
一般来说，这里又过于简单化了，大公司对小公司感兴趣，因为它们是技术。
And small companies are interested in large companies because they're distribution.
小公司对大公司感兴趣，因为它们是分销公司。
And there's someone at the large company who becomes fascinated with you.
大公司里有人对你着迷。
Jonathan Lowenhar: What's the fascination?
Jonathan Lowenhar：有何魅力？
What they see in their head is, "Oh, interesting.
他们脑海中看到的是，“哦，有趣。
If I buy your company, this thing happens." The classic example of this is Instagram.
如果我买了你的公司，就会发生这种事。”典型的例子就是 Instagram。
This is the number one example of this.
这是第一个例子。
Lenny, do you remember how much revenue they had when they got acquired by now Meta?
Lenny，你还记得他们被Meta收购时有多少收入吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Do you remember the acquisition price?
Jonathan Lowenhar：您还记得收购价格吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: A billion dollars, which was absurd at that point.
Lenny Rachitsky：十亿美元，这在当时是荒谬的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: There was no math Facebook could use, historically speaking, that would justify a billion dollars.
Jonathan Lowenhar：从历史上看，Facebook 没有任何数学可以证明 10 亿美元是合理的。
It had to be a model on the future.
它必须是未来的典范。
This is Magic Box to a T.
这是神奇的盒子。
They had a fantasy that adding Instagram would expand ad revenue.
他们幻想添加 Instagram 可以增加广告收入。
They figured out some way to prove it.
他们想出了一些方法来证明这一点。
I'll explain more on what I mean by proof.
我将更多地解释我所说的证明的含义。
And then their quantification was based on the future.
然后他们的量化是基于未来的。
And that's the difference between a Magic Box approach and traditional approaches.
这就是魔盒方法和传统方法之间的区别。
Traditional approaches are based on the past, Magic Box is on the future.
传统方法基于过去，Magic Box 着眼于未来。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Let me tell a story.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：让我讲一个故事。
In one of our companies in construction tech, their technology was able to suck in video camera data from construction sites for project planning.
在我们的一家建筑技术公司中，他们的技术能够从建筑工地获取摄像机数据以进行项目规划。
No one was doing this yet.
目前还没有人这样做。
And the business was doing pretty well.
而且生意做的还不错。
We helped the founders launch the company.
我们帮助创始人创办了公司。
We got first product in market.
我们在市场上获得了第一个产品。
We raised a couple of rounds of capital.
我们筹集了几轮资金。
The product mostly worked.
该产品基本上有效。
But we weren't sure it was venture scale as we were going along.
但我们在进行过程中并不确定它是否具有风险规模。
And we had some large construction tech companies and real estate companies and development companies leaning into us.
我们有一些大型建筑技术公司、房地产公司和开发公司向我们倾斜。
And one particular company then said, "Huh, we're really good at construction planning, and we've collected all of this video data that we don't use at all." And the champion on the other side in the product org, he has a fantasy.
一家特定的公司随后说道：“嗯，我们真的很擅长施工规划，而且我们收集了所有我们根本不使用的视频数据。”而产品组织另一边的冠军，他有一个幻想。
"Oh, shit.
“哦，妈的。
We take your video analytics platform and plug it into what we do, and this is what happens to my business."
我们将您的视频分析平台融入到我们的工作中，这就是我的业务所发生的情况。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: Now, the person on the other side is a person.
Jonathan Lowenhar：现在，另一边的人是一个人。
And the reason I'm being specific about that, is because you don't sell to a company.
我之所以具体说明这一点，是因为你不向公司出售产品。
Magic Box is about finding the person.
魔盒就是要找到那个人。
You're finding the champion on the other side, the person who has motivated for their own reasons, career, money, reputation, what have you.
你会在另一边找到冠军，那些因为自己的原因、事业、金钱、声誉等等而激励自己的人。
They see the fantasy.
他们看到了幻想。
They fall in love.
他们相爱了。
And this person says, "I am in love with this idea.
这个人说：“我喜欢这个想法。
If I can grab security data into my product organization.
如果我可以将安全数据获取到我的产品组织中。
Now I have to prove the fantasy."
现在我必须证明这个幻想。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: What's different about a champion in this kind of process, is they want to find a way to say yes.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：在这种过程中，冠军的不同之处在于，他们想要找到一种方法说“是”。
They're not looking for a way to say no. And this brings us to the four characters you're going to meet along the path of Magic Box.
他们并不是在寻找拒绝的方法。这给我们带来了您将在 Magic Box 的道路上遇到的四个角色。
There might be a fifth.
可能还有第五个。
You're going to meet your champion, you're going to meet your advocates, you're going to meet your blockers, and you're going to meet your buyer.
你将见到你的拥护者，你将见到你的拥护者，你将见到你的阻碍者，你将见到你的买家。
You might meet Corp Dev along the way.
一路上您可能会遇到 Corp Dev。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Let me talk about each of those folks.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：让我谈谈每一个人。
The champion is the one who's fallen in love.
冠军是坠入爱河的人。
They're the ones with the fantasy.
他们是有幻想的人。
They're the ones who are arguing on your behalf.
他们是代表你争论的人。
They're the ones fighting for you when you're not in the room.
当你不在房间时，他们是为你而战的人。
They are texting you, they're telling you things about the business that they're probably not supposed to tell you.
他们正在给您发短信，正在告诉您有关他们可能不应该告诉您的业务的事情。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The buyer.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：买家。
All they care about is math.
他们只关心数学。
It might be a committee, it might be a group, the IC, the EC, the investment group, what have you.
它可能是一个委员会，也可能是一个团体，IC、EC、投资团体等等。
They're the ones who actually can sign off on a deal.
他们是真正可以签署协议的人。
They care about business case.
他们关心商业案例。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Advocates...
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：倡导者……
Lenny, do you play chess?
莱尼，你会下棋吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: You have played chess.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：你下过国际象棋。
So advocates are pawns.
所以拥护者都是棋子。
They don't matter at all until they matter enormously.
它们根本不重要，直到它们变得非常重要。
These are folks that, like, you are the CEO doing a meeting with your potential buyer, and there are somehow 12 people on the Zoom call, but only two do the talking.
这些人，比如，你是首席执行官，正在与你的潜在买家开会，不知何故有 12 个人参加 Zoom 电话会议，但只有两个人在讲话。
The other 10 might be advocates.
另外 10 个人可能是倡导者。
They're rooting for you, but they will take no political risk.
他们支持你，但他们不会冒政治风险。
Their value is in giving you intel.
他们的价值在于为你提供情报。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Blocker.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：拦截者。
This is the person who can't say yes, but they can say no. This is OPSEC, this is Procurement, this is Legal.
这种人不能说“是”，但他们可以说“不”。这是OPSEC，这是采购，这是法律。
You're going to meet all these characters during the Magic Box dance.
您将在魔盒舞会上遇到所有这些角色。
Your champion just wants you to get the deal done so in love.
你的冠军只是希望你充满爱地完成交易。
So what happens, is they've come up with a fantasy and you as a CEO need to lean into it.
那么接下来会发生什么，他们提出了一个幻想，而作为首席执行官的你需要投入其中。
This isn't enterprise selling.
这不是企业销售。
I'm not trying to sell you this thing that I have.
我并不是想把我拥有的东西卖给你。
I'm just trying to find ways to say yes.
我只是想办法说“是”。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So when, in my story, the person says, "Could we provide you all of our video data that we've collected forever and you now could enhance our ability to predict whether large- scale construction projects are on time"?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：那么，在我的故事中，当有人说：“我们可以向您提供我们永久收集的所有视频数据吗？您现在可以增强我们预测大型建设项目是否按时进行的能力”？
I don't want the CEO saying anything other than, "We can do that."
我不想让首席执行官说“我们能做到”以外的任何话。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Now, phase two, I need to prove it.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：现在，第二阶段，我需要证明这一点。
Okay, because I have a champion who wants to say yes, proof can be really easy.
好吧，因为我有一位冠军想说“是”，所以证明真的很容易。
And the reason the proof is so important, is not to convince the champion they're in love with the fantasy.
证据之所以如此重要，并不是为了让冠军相信他们爱上了幻想。
They're already convinced.
他们已经确信了。
It's because in almost all cases, big company is buying little company and your champion doesn't have unilateral authority.
这是因为几乎在所有情况下，大公司都在收购小公司，而你的支持者没有单方面的权力。
They're going to socialize the deal.
他们将把这笔交易社交化。
They have to get buy-in from who?
他们必须得到谁的支持？
The aforementioned buyer.
上述买家。
They have to be able to survive the aforementioned blockers.
他们必须能够在上述阻碍中生存。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So eventually, when they pitch this to whatever committee is in charge, that committee is going to say, "What proof do we have that it works?" And we just want to be able to provide the champion with enough evidence that it works.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：所以最终，当他们向负责的任何委员会推销这个时，该委员会会说，“我们有什么证据证明它有效？”我们只是希望能够向冠军提供足够的证据证明它有效。
So in this case, we said to the champion, " Well, give us video data, and we will provide you the evidence that you need." Because we're dealing with a champion who's not a cynic, because champions aren't, we could tell them, "And provide us the data in this way, in this fashion, and here's what we'll send you after.
所以在这种情况下，我们对冠军说：“好吧，给我们视频数据，我们将为您提供您需要的证据。”因为我们面对的是一个不是愤世嫉俗的冠军，因为冠军不是愤世嫉俗的人，所以我们可以告诉他们，“并以这种方式、这种方式向我们提供数据，这就是我们之后将发送给您的数据。
Are we in agreement?" We know we're already going to win the proof, and it's critically important in these dances.
我们意见一致吗？”我们知道我们已经赢得了证明，这在这些舞蹈中至关重要。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Number three, quantify.
Jonathan Lowenhar：第三，量化。
At this point, we're not up for sale, but we're spending a lot of calories on somebody, and they know it.
在这一点上，我们不打算出售，但我们在某人身上花费了很多卡路里，他们知道这一点。
So we have our CEOs say the following phrase to them: "My board is asking questions.
因此，我们让首席执行官对他们说以下这句话：“我的董事会正在提出问题。
They're wondering why we're spending so many calories on this when it's not really core and we're not selling you our product.
他们想知道为什么我们要在这上面花费这么多卡路里，而这并不是真正的核心，而且我们也不向您出售我们的产品。
I'm convinced of how exciting this could be, together, but I think we need to do some math.
我相信这将是多么令人兴奋，但我认为我们需要做一些数学计算。
So I can explain to my board why this might matter.
所以我可以向我的董事会解释为什么这可能很重要。
So let's imagine all this works, because it's going to work, and it's a year from now or five years from now.
因此，让我们想象一下所有这些都有效，因为它会起作用，而且是一年后或五年后。
What changes about your business?" And the champion will tell you, "Retention does this, or deal size goes like this, or market share goes like this." And you'll say to them, "Fantastic.
你的生意有什么变化吗？”冠军会告诉你，“保留率是这样，或者交易规模是这样，或者市场份额是这样。”你会对他们说：“太棒了。
Look, I'm going to build some shitty verse version of the model.
听着，我要构建一些该模型的蹩脚诗句版本。
You tell me what I got right and what I got wrong, but I have a board meeting in 16 days, and I need to be able to walk them through the justify why I am spending so many calories on this exercise."
你告诉我什么是对的，什么是错的，但 16 天后我将召开董事会会议，我需要能够向他们解释为什么我在这项练习上花费如此多的卡路里。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: You build the model, you hand it to them.
Jonathan Lowenhar：您构建模型，然后将其交给他们。
If they in any way respond to your model, you've won.
如果他们以任何方式响应你的模型，你就赢了。
Because you have now divorced history from future, and you are now playing in future, you are playing the Instagram game in this case.
因为你现在已经把历史和未来分开了，你现在正在玩未来，所以在这种情况下你正在玩Instagram游戏。
The ending of the story for the company that I was describing, it was a business sub 2 million in revenue.
我所描述的公司故事的结局是，这是一家收入低于 200 万的企业。
Our prospects of raising series B felt low.
我们筹集 B 轮融资的前景并不乐观。
We were not yet profitable, and that was an exit that was generational wealth for the co-founders and their families.
我们还没有盈利，这是一个退出，对联合创始人及其家族来说是一代人的财富。
The CEO went on and spent two-plus years with the now public company that did this acquisition.
这位首席执行官继续在这家完成这次收购的上市公司工作了两年多。
The technology did get integrated, but it took a long time and they had to do a lot of changes to it, certainly beyond what was envisioned during the diligence process.
该技术确实得到了集成，但需要很长时间，而且他们必须对其进行大量更改，当然超出了尽职调查过程中的设想。
But all parties are happy.
但各方都很高兴。
And if we hadn't done it this way and we had just been up for sale, we'd get a dollar for that company.
如果我们没有这样做并且我们刚刚挂牌出售，我们就会从那家公司得到一美元。
Jonathan Lowenhar: A couple of other side points that are really important here.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：还有其他一些非常重要的观点。
For any of you founders out there that are thinking about working backwards from an exit, there are two things that I really want to stress.
对于那些正在考虑退出后倒退的创始人来说，有两件事我真的想强调。
One is the fantasy is beyond just, "What is the business change you can have?" The fantasy is, "Your books are in order." Your fantasy is all of your investors will sign off on the deal and you will have unanimous consent, that the key members of your team are going to stick around, that you're a joy to work with.
一是幻想不仅仅是“你能带来什么业务改变？”幻想是，“你的书都整理好了。”你的幻想是你的所有投资者都会签署交易，并且你会得到一致同意，你的团队的关键成员会留下来，与你一起工作很愉快。
Please God, founder, do not puncture the fantasy at any time.
请创始人老天爷任何时候都不要戳破幻想。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So whatever is starting to shape in your buyer's mind, get to know it.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：因此，无论买家的想法开始形成什么，都要了解它。
Live that everybody wins from that game.
相信每个人都能从这场比赛中获胜。
Second, Corp Dev, they will probably show up in the stands.
其次，Corp Dev，他们可能会出现在看台上。
Corp Dev make deals.
公司开发人员进行交易。
They're not deal sponsors, they're not a champion, they're not a buyer.
他们不是交易赞助商，他们不是冠军，他们不是买家。
They are an expert negotiator.
他们是谈判专家。
Their job is to facilitate deals and get deals done.
他们的工作是促进交易并完成交易。
The most important things to understand is that they can be a leverage point to have a deal move with some process and some pace and some urgency.
最重要的是要理解，它们可以成为以一定的流程、一定的节奏和一定的紧迫性达成交易的杠杆点。
Because either deals have momentum or they die, and Corp Dev can help there.
因为交易要么有动力，要么就会失败，而 Corp Dev 可以在这方面提供帮助。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Second, they are way better at negotiating than you.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：其次，他们比你更擅长谈判。
So anytime dealing with a superior negotiator, the only thing you can do to try and even the scales, is move the negotiation async.
因此，任何时候与优秀的谈判者打交道时，你唯一能做的就是尝试异步进行谈判。
So founders, repeat after me, I'm talking to you directly now.
所以创始人们，跟着我重复一遍，我现在正在直接和你们说话。
You'll say to Corp Dev, "You know I'm not alone in this decision.
你会对 Corp Dev 说：“你知道我并不是唯一一个做出这个决定的人。
I love what you just said and I'm excited about this opportunity.
我喜欢你刚才所说的，我对这个机会感到很兴奋。
Once I see it in writing, I can socialize it with advisors, lawyers, co-founders, whoever." But don't negotiate live.
一旦我看到它的书面形式，我就可以与顾问、律师、联合创始人等任何人进行交流。”但不要现场谈判。
You will lose.
你会输的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me just say that was extremely delightful to listen to.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想说的是，这听起来非常令人愉快。
I've never heard like a M&A strategy be this fun.
我从未听说过并购策略如此有趣。
And it makes me want to sell a company.
这让我想卖掉一家公司。
It's like, "Okay, let's do this.
就像是，“好吧，让我们这样做吧。
I'm hyped." I think you got it all.
我很兴奋。”我想你已经明白了一切。
I have a few questions.
我有几个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interestingly, the middle part is...
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，中间部分是......
It feels a lot like enterprise sales, which a lot of founders are used to.
这感觉很像很多创始人都习惯的企业销售。
Understand the stakeholders move things forward.
了解利益相关者推动事情向前发展。
Here's your champion, here's your blockers, here's the buyer.
这是你的拥护者，这是你的阻碍者，这是买家。
Is there anything there you want to say, what's maybe most different from enterprise sales, which I think a lot of founders are maybe used to?
您有什么想说的吗？与企业销售最不同的是什么？我想很多创始人可能已经习惯了企业销售？
Or is it pretty similar?
或者说是非常相似？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Yeah, I think three things.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：是的，我认为三件事。
One is there are a lot of moments in enterprise sales where we're trying to push for a compelling event.
一是在企业销售中有很多时候我们都在努力推动一场引人注目的活动。
That doesn't work in seduction.
这在诱惑中不起作用。
The playful metaphor that we'll often use, is you've been dating for a while, this person could be the person, but they're not quite convinced yet that it should be a life together, and you're sitting at dinner.
我们经常使用的有趣的比喻是，你们已经约会了一段时间，这个人可能就是那个人，但他们还不太相信这应该是在一起的生活，而你们正坐在一起吃晚饭。
And in enterprise sales, you're eager to get it done.
在企业销售中，你渴望完成它。
You're eager to move the relationship forward and move in and get engaged, what have you.
你渴望推动这段关系向前发展，并订婚，你有什么。
And so you might be inclined to say, "Hey, either we move this relationship the next step, or there are a whole bunch of people eyeing me, and I'm going to go date someone else."
所以你可能会倾向于说，“嘿，要么我们将这种关系转移到下一步，要么有一大群人在盯着我，我要去和其他人约会。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: That conversation never goes well, and in Magic Box founders are eager to do the same thing, thinking that competition will improve their deal size, when in fact I think more often than not, that is a negative signal until the very end of the dance.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：这种对话从来不会顺利进行，而在 Magic Box 中，创始人们渴望做同样的事情，认为竞争会提高他们的交易规模，而事实上，我经常认为，直到舞蹈结束之前，这都是一个负面信号。
So instead in enterprise selling where I'm pushing, in Magic Box, I'm always trying to entice, I'm never, ever trying to push.
因此，在我推动的企业销售中，在 Magic Box 中，我总是试图吸引，我从来没有试图推动。
So instead I might say things like, "Hey, I'm going to raise my next round in Q1, because I've been intending to do this business independently.
因此，我可能会说，“嘿，我将在第一季度筹集下一轮资金，因为我一直打算独立开展这项业务。
Now all I really want to do, is win.
现在我真正想做的就是获胜。
I just want my product in as many customers' hands as possible.
我只是希望我的产品能到达尽可能多的客户手中。
Whether I do that on my own as I was planning, in partnership with someone, or under someone else's roof, honestly I don't care.
无论我是按照自己的计划自己做，还是与某人合作，或者在别人的指导下做，老实说，我不在乎。
But I have a company to run and I'm going to go raise my next round in Q1.
但我有一家公司要经营，我将在第一季度筹集下一轮资金。
And if I do that, probably too expensive for this deal to make sense anymore, and my board will want me to move on anyway." I'm enticing.
如果我这样做，这笔交易可能太贵了，不再有意义，而且我的董事会无论如何都会希望我继续前进。”我很诱人。
I'm never trying to push.
我从不试图推动。
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Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so I'm thinking about as a founder hearing this, and I feel like what they're probably wondering is that first step of finding that person, starting to build this fantasy.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以我作为创始人听到这个，我觉得他们可能想知道的是找到那个人的第一步，开始建立这个幻想。
Any advice you could share for a founder that's like, "We probably need to sell this company"?
您可以向创始人分享什么建议，比如“我们可能需要出售这家公司”？
What can they do to start creating these relationships, find this person, create this fantasy in their minds?
他们可以做什么来开始建立这些关系，找到这个人，在他们的脑海中创造这个幻想？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Ezra does this really well in the book.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：埃兹拉在书中做得很好。
Again, it has to be not solicitous.
再次强调，它必须不热心。
So one of our companies, we had maybe 20 months of capital left, and the two co-founders and our team were convinced, "This isn't a venture business.
因此，我们的一家公司可能还剩下 20 个月的资金，两位联合创始人和我们的团队确信，“这不是风险投资业务。
We thought it might be a venture business.
我们认为这可能是一项风险投资业务。
It's not a venture business.
这不是风险投资业务。
It takes too long to do a deal that's not that interesting with each of our enterprise customers." It was disappointing, but at least we were honest about it.
完成一笔对我们每个企业客户来说都不太有趣的交易需要太长时间。”这令人失望，但至少我们对此是诚实的。
"Okay, so who are we going to sell to?
“好吧，那我们要卖给谁呢？
Let's go play this game."
我们去玩这个游戏吧。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: So we started with categories, categories of buyers.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：所以我们从买家类别开始。
It could be, for this particular example that was in my head, ERP companies could be a buyer, large banks could be a buyer, the big software companies like Microsoft could be a buyer.
对于我脑海中的这个特定例子，ERP 公司可以是买家，大型银行可以是买家，像微软这样的大型软件公司可以是买家。
There were a few different categories.
有几个不同的类别。
And we said, "Great.
我们说：“太好了。
Who are the companies within those categories that make sense?" They're acquisitive, they have the balance sheet for it.
这些类别中哪些公司是有意义的？”他们贪婪，他们有资产负债表。
There's a Corp Dev department, so we know that they actually know what they're talking about here.
有一个公司开发部门，所以我们知道他们实际上知道他们在这里谈论的内容。
Ideally, there's an existing relationship with core team or advisors or board members.
理想情况下，与核心团队或顾问或董事会成员存在现有关系。
Make a list.
列一个清单。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Now, how do we meet them in a way without selling them?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：现在，我们如何在不出售他们的情况下以某种方式认识他们？
So one of the examples in the book, which I love, is small startup wants to meet the luminaries in a space, and they have their PR agency set up a panel where they contact the CEOs of the potential buyers and say, "We're putting together a panel of the world's foremost experts in X.
因此，书中我喜欢的一个例子是，小型初创公司想要在某个领域与杰出人物见面，他们让公关机构设立了一个小组，在那里他们联系潜在买家的首席执行官，并说：“我们正在组建一个由世界上最重要的 X 专家组成的小组。
We're going to put four people on the panel, and it's going to be you and famous person number two and famous person number three, and this fourth person," that is a luminary to us.
我们将在小组中安排四个人，这将是你和第二号名人、第三号名人，还有第四个人，”这对我们来说是一位杰出人物。
And it's our startup CEO.
这是我们初创公司的首席执行官。
And suddenly you're at the table as a peer.
突然之间，你们就以同伴的身份坐在了桌子旁。
It's a completely different conversation.
这是一次完全不同的对话。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The second one, and this is going to sound a little silly, but I am not exaggerating, it works.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：第二个，这听起来有点傻，但我并不夸张，它确实有效。
If you are a CEO founder and you have that title on LinkedIn, it's amazing the responses you'll get.
如果您是首席执行官创始人，并且在 LinkedIn 上拥有该头衔，那么您会得到令人惊讶的回应。
So we made this list and we just started to send connection requests to the CEOs or CPOs or CFOs on our target list, and said something as simple as this, "You're doing something really cool.
因此，我们列出了这个列表，然后开始向目标列表上的首席执行官、首席采购官或首席财务官发送连接请求，并说了一些简单的话，“你正在做一些非常酷的事情。
So are we.
我们也是。
You game just for a 30-minute chat?
你玩游戏只是为了聊30分钟？
Because I don't know where it'll go, but I think it'll be fun." Keep it that informal.
因为我不知道它会去哪里，但我认为它会很有趣。”保持非正式。
It's peer to peer.
这是点对点的。
I'm not selling you anything.
我不会卖给你任何东西。
Jonathan Lowenhar: If you can draw a line to some post that they had or some speech that they gave, even better.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：如果你能对他们发表的一些帖子或他们发表的一些演讲进行界定，那就更好了。
But we found without fail, there would be math that would show up, one out of four, one out of five, or one out of six, "Yeah, that sounds fun." There's a lot of those CEOs never talk to startups, and that's fascinating to them, especially when presented with the energy of, "I just want to have a fun, intellectual discussion."
但我们发现，毫无疑问，会有数学出现，四分之一、五分之一或六分之一，“是的，这听起来很有趣。”很多首席执行官从未与初创公司交谈过，这对他们来说很有趣，尤其是当他们充满“我只是想进行一次有趣的、理智的讨论”的能量时。
Jonathan Lowenhar: What you're looking for in that first conversation, and this is what we ask our CEOs to do, is to ask questions like, "What do you care most about in the next year?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：在第一次对话中，你希望提出这样的问题，这也是我们要求首席执行官做的：“明年你最关心什么？
What's the mandate?
任务是什么？
What about for your department?
你的部门呢？
What are the things that keep you up at night?
哪些事情让你彻夜难眠？
What's the break?
有什么休息时间？
What's the thing that could actually kill everything, if you had a pre-mortem for the next year?" Those kind of open-ended questions, because what we want our CEO listening for, is the fantasy to see if there's some intersection between what they care about and what we might be able to squint and say we do.
如果你对明年进行预验的话，什么东西实际上可以杀死一切？”这类开放式问题，因为我们希望首席执行官倾听的是幻想，看看他们关心的事情和我们可能会眯着眼睛说我们做的事情之间是否存在某种交叉点。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting, because it sounds a lot like there's a jobs-to-be-done framework here, or just like, "What is the job they need done?" What is the pain you're going to solve, and then create a fantasy around how amazing it'll be for them if you can solve that problem.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，因为听起来很像这里有一个待完成的工作框架，或者就像“他们需要完成什么工作？”你要解决的痛苦是什么，然后创造一个幻想，如果你能解决这个问题，对他们来说会有多神奇。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And ideally they'll say it and you just reflect it back in active listening.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：理想情况下，他们会说出来，而你只需在积极倾听中反映出来即可。
Lenny Rachitsky: Chris Voss negotiation style.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：克里斯·沃斯的谈判风格。
Okay, so you're the kind of guest, Jonathan, where the whole podcast could be about each one of these topics, and so I know there's so much more to talk about here.
好吧，乔纳森，你是那种客人，整个播客都可以讨论这些主题中的每一个，所以我知道这里还有很多东西要谈。
I want to move to a different topic, but to leave folks with, one is if they want to explore this methodology more, there's a book you mentioned, called Magic Box Paradigm by Ezra Roizen, right?
我想转向另一个主题，但要留给人们的是，如果他们想更多地探索这种方法，你提到了一本书，名为《Magic Box Paradigm》，作者是 Ezra Roizen，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: If companies are in this process, starting to think about it, does it make sense for them to come to you and like, "Hey, help me through this process"?
Lenny Rachitsky：如果公司正处于这个过程中，并开始思考这个问题，那么他们来找你并说“嘿，帮助我完成这个过程”是否有意义？
I know you said, "Go to an investment banker." Or does it make sense to like, "Hey, let's bring on Jonathan," or someone from your team to help them?
我知道你说过，“去找投资银行家。”或者说“嘿，让我们请乔纳森”或您团队中的某个人来帮助他们是否有意义？
Lenny Rachitsky: It makes sense to like, Hey, let's bring on Jonathan or someone from your team to help them.
Lenny Rachitsky：嘿，让我们请乔纳森或您团队中的某个人来帮助他们，这是有道理的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: We meet two types of founders.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我们遇到了两种类型的创始人。
Founder one says, fix this part of my business, totally transactional.
创始人之一说，解决我的这部分业务，完全是交易性的。
I want to raise the next round, or I'm hiring people badly or my founders aren't getting along, or I want to sell my company.
我想筹集下一轮资金，或者我招聘得不好，或者我的创始人相处不好，或者我想卖掉我的公司。
Well, I need to be honest, that's not interesting to us.
好吧，我必须说实话，这对我们来说并不有趣。
That's not our work.
那不是我们的工作。
Go find someone who is, and I don't mean this disparagingly, but like a screwdriver, like fixes one thing, go fix one thing.
去找一个能做到这一点的人，我的意思并不是贬低，而是像螺丝刀一样，修复一件事，去修复一件事。
Then we meet second type of founder and that founder says, most likely to themselves, 'cause it's the only safe audience.
然后我们遇到了第二种类型的创始人，这位创始人很可能对自己说，因为这是唯一安全的受众。
There's some gap between the CEO I am and the one my company needs me to be.
我所担任的首席执行官与公司需要我担任的首席执行官之间存在一些差距。
There are a set of skills that I'm great at and there are these things where I know if I'm really honest with myself, if I listen to the quiet voice, I'm soft at these things or I'm not good enough at these things or I have some imposter syndrome about these things and if I don't get better at them, danger.
有一套我擅长的技能，在这些事情上，我知道如果我对自己真的诚实，如果我倾听安静的声音，我在这些事情上很软弱，或者我在这些事情上不够擅长，或者我对这些事情有一些冒名顶替综合症，如果我在这些事情上做得不好，就会有危险。
That's the one we work with.
这就是我们合作的人。
And it's when they care that much about both the hard skill development and maybe the soft skill development in their path to become a great CEO.
当他们在成为一名伟大首席执行官的道路上非常关心硬技能发展和软技能发展时。
Jonathan Lowenhar: How to sell the company.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：如何出售公司。
It's one of the skills.
这是技能之一。
We teach this to all of our founders as well as hiring and management and planning.
我们向所有创始人教授这一点，以及招聘、管理和规划。
I don't care what the thing is.
我不在乎这件事是什么。
For every one of our founders, we audit them and say, here's what you're great at, here's what you're shitty at, and here's what you've never done before, and which of these do you want to work on next given where the company is in its cycle.
对于我们的每一位创始人，我们都会对其进行审核并说，这是你擅长的事情，这是你不擅长的事情，这是你以前从未做过的事情，以及考虑到公司所处的周期，你下一步想从事哪一项工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great segue to where I wanted to go with this, which is hiring.
Lenny Rachitsky：很好地延续到了我想要去的地方，那就是招聘。
So I hear all the time that a founder's core job is fundraising and hiring an amazing team.
所以我一直听说创始人的核心工作是筹集资金和雇用一支出色的团队。
Basically that's their main goal.
基本上这是他们的主要目标。
Just like hire amazing people.
就像雇用优秀的人才一样。
The people you hire make your company, create the culture.
你雇用的人造就了你的公司，创造了你的文化。
You got to get that right.
你必须做对。
But similar to trying to sell your company, most founders have never really hired lots of people, they've never hired for all these different skill sets they're trying to hire for and I know that you guys spend a lot of time helping founders hire and find amazing people.
但与试图出售公司类似，大多数创始人从未真正雇用过很多人，他们从未雇用过他们想要雇用的所有这些不同的技能组合，我知道你们花了很多时间帮助创始人雇用和找到优秀的人才。
Can you just share some of the advice you share with founders for how to find and hire amazing people?
您能否分享一些您与创始人分享的关于如何寻找和雇用优秀人才的建议？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Yeah, so we actually think the CEO has three jobs.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：是的，所以我们实际上认为首席执行官有三份工作。
We agree with the two that you said, but we think there's a third.
我们同意你所说的两个，但我们认为还有第三个。
One is, make sure everyone knows where we're going.
一是确保每个人都知道我们要去哪里。
The second one, pick the right people for the team.
第二，为团队选择合适的人。
Third one, give those people the tools they need to win.
第三，为这些人提供获胜所需的工具。
And you can abstract from those what they all mean, but-
你可以从这些中抽象出它们的全部含义，但是-
Jonathan Lowenhar: ...
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：...
most founders are really bad at hiring.
大多数创始人在招聘方面确实很糟糕。
They fall prey to all sorts of pretty common human biases.
他们深受各种常见的人类偏见的影响。
The lazy ones, back to laissez-faire, think it's just gambling like, oh cool, they worked at Meta and Salesforce already, so hire them, just gambling.
那些懒惰的人，回到自由放任，认为这只是赌博，就像，哦酷，他们已经在 Meta 和 Salesforce 工作过，所以雇用他们，只是赌博。
There was work done by and then codified in a beautiful book.
他们完成了一些工作，然后将其编入一本美丽的书里。
I'm going to make sure I get the names right, Geoffrey Smart and Randy Street.
我要确保我的名字是正确的，杰弗里·斯玛特和兰迪·斯特里特。
They had a consulting firm that dates back to the mid-nineties.
他们有一家咨询公司，其历史可以追溯到九十年代中期。
Then they wrote a book in 2007 or 2008 called Who: The A Method for Hiring.
然后他们在 2007 年或 2008 年写了一本书，名为《谁：招聘的一种方法》。
We have operationalized that book and then expanded on it 'cause there are some parts of it that we found a little dated, but it's really still as applicable today as it ever was.
我们已经对这本书进行了操作，然后对其进行了扩展，因为我们发现其中的某些部分有点过时，但它在今天仍然像以前一样适用。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And I think there are three core mistakes that founders make all the time, that can be really easily rectified.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我认为创始人经常犯三个核心错误，但这些错误很容易纠正。
The first one is, you should hire people who have already done the thing you need to have done next.
第一个是，你应该雇佣那些已经完成了你下一步需要做的事情的人。
And I know that sounds simple, but founders don't think of hiring that way.
我知道这听起来很简单，但创始人并不考虑以这种方式招聘。
They start with a job description.
他们从职位描述开始。
We've been taught that for a long time.
我们长期以来一直被这样教导。
Start with the job description.
从职位描述开始。
It's a fucking mistake.
这是一个该死的错误。
Start with, it's 12 months later, you hired the person, they started today, 12 months have gone by, you're clinking champagne because of how great it's been.
首先，12 个月后，你雇佣了这个人，他们今天开始工作，12 个月过去了，你正在举杯庆祝，因为它是多么的伟大。
What's changed about the business?
业务有什么变化？
What does success look like 12 months later?
12 个月后，成功是什么样子的？
Document it.
记录下来。
And then when you interview people, look for people that have already done that stuff.
然后当你采访人们时，寻找已经做过这些事情的人。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Second, the notion of does the person in front of you have a history of creating raving fans?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：第二，你面前的这个人是否有吸引狂热粉丝的历史？
They talk in the book about this idea of you being pulled or pushed in your career.
他们在书中谈到了你在职业生涯中被拉动或推动的想法。
If you were an outstanding performer in Job A, it is a high likelihood that in job B, someone associated with you in job A is going to pull you into the next thing and then pull you into the next thing and pull you into the next thing and you'll never do a job search 'cause you were great.
如果你在工作 A 中表现出色，那么在工作 B 中，与你在工作 A 中相关的人很可能会把你拉入下一个事物，然后将你拉入下一个事物，然后将你拉入下一个事物，而你永远不会因为你很棒而去寻找工作。
And if you see a history of that, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, really attractive candidate.
如果你看到这段历史，叮，叮，叮，叮，叮，非常有吸引力的候选人。
Third, core values matter a lot.
第三，核心价值观很重要。
Culture is not an accident.
文化并非偶然。
Culture at scale is the codification of what matters to a business and the ritualization of living those values.
大规模文化是对企业重要事项的编纂以及践行这些价值观的仪式化。
It starts with whoever the founders are and then it will emanate across as long as the founders are super consistent.
它从创始人是谁开始，然后只要创始人非常一致，它就会蔓延开来。
But that also means you need a methodology for evaluating the next human in front of you on whether they actually represent your values.
但这也意味着你需要一种方法来评估你面前的下一个人是否真正代表了你的价值观。
We think of these interview stages in a way similar to the book, we use slightly different language, but we think that there is a culture interview, there is a functional interview, and there is a technical interview, but they're designed to get at these notions of have they actually done this kind of work before?
我们以与本书类似的方式思考这些面试阶段，我们使用略有不同的语言，但我们认为有文化面试，有功能面试，还有技术面试，但他们的目的是了解他们以前是否实际做过此类工作？
Have they been pulled or pushed in their career and are they your kind of human?
他们在职业生涯中受到过拉动或推动吗？他们是你的同类吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Funny on that last detail actually, at Airbnb, there was actually a core values interview team that was formed around studying what the founders Brian, and Joe, and Nate valued specifically and then they codified them to core values at the business and then there's this team that was a very select handpicked team that at every interview loop interviewed the person for their values.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个细节很有趣，实际上，在 Airbnb，实际上有一个核心价值观面试团队，该团队是围绕研究创始人 Brian、Joe 和 Nate 具体看重什么而组建的，然后他们将它们编入企业的核心价值观，然后这个团队是一个经过精心挑选的团队，在每个面试循环中都会面试该人的价值观。
Jonathan Lowenhar: That is a beautiful example of how interviewing for values is independent of title.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：这是一个很好的例子，说明了价值观面试与头衔无关。
'Cause you'll find people in the company at every stage of a company that are the best ambassadors, the best embodiments of those values.
因为你会发现公司各个阶段的人都是最好的大使，是这些价值观的最佳体现。
Please use them for interviewing and in addition, they love it 'cause they're protecting their castle.
请使用它们进行采访，此外，他们喜欢它，因为他们正在保护自己的城堡。
They love where they work, they want to keep it that way.
他们热爱自己工作的地方，并希望保持这种状态。
Lenny Rachitsky: So true that team is a real special team and it was really honored to be on that team.
Lenny Rachitsky：确实，该团队是一支真正的特殊团队，能够加入该团队真的很荣幸。
So let me summarize what you just shared, which I love.
让我总结一下你刚刚分享的内容，我很喜欢这些内容。
There's so much value here, it just keeps going and going.
这里有如此多的价值，它会一直持续下去。
So when you're hiring, your advice is: look for people, one, that have done it before; two, that have been pulled from job to job by someone else that loves their work and wants them to be with them at this new company.
因此，当你招聘时，你的建议是：寻找曾经做过这件事的人；二是被其他热爱自己工作并希望他们留在新公司的人从一个工作调到另一个工作。
And then three, their values match the values of the founder and the business essentially, right?
第三，他们的价值观本质上与创始人和企业的价值观相匹配，对吧？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Yes.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：是的。
And for the recruiters out there, a really simple way to get rid of a lot of the crap that ends up showing up at the top of the funnel is just to ask the simple question even in the cover letter, of your last ex-bosses, how many would get on the phone and say, you're amazing?
对于招聘人员来说，摆脱最终出现在漏斗顶部的大量垃圾的一个非常简单的方法就是在求职信中问一个简单的问题，即你的前任老板，有多少人会在电话里说，你太棒了？
If there's any equivocation in the answer, great, move on.
如果答案有任何模棱两可的地方，很好，继续。
Lenny Rachitsky: So a couple of follow-up questions here.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有几个后续问题。
One is, this point of hiring people that have done it, obviously this implies don't hire junior up-and-comers as much.
一是，雇用已经做到这一点的人，显然这意味着不要雇用那么多初级后起之秀。
Thoughts on just when it makes sense to hire someone more junior that's really ambitious, real smart, you think they can learn the job, thoughts there?
关于什么时候雇佣一个真正有雄心、真正聪明的资历较浅的人是有意义的，你认为他们可以学习这份工作，有什么想法吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: So one of our companies is hiring a team of reasonably junior account execs.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们的一家公司正在招聘一支由相当初级的客户经理组成的团队。
We're looking for folks that have been out of school for two years.
我们正在寻找已经失学两年的人。
Now, that means they are highly unlikely to have had three years of quota achievements and a similar...
现在，这意味着他们极不可能取得三年的配额成就和类似的......
you get the point.
你明白了。
Okay, so how do you hire someone who's already done it?
好吧，那么你如何雇用已经做过这件事的人呢？
We know what success looks like 12 months later.
我们知道 12 个月后成功是什么样子。
For that role, they've learned how to hunt, they've been able to create pipeline of X and close Y in business, et cetera.
对于这个角色，他们学会了如何寻找，他们已经能够在业务中创建 X 管道并关闭 Y 等等。
What we are looking for then in their history, if they have any sales chops of any kind.
我们在他们的历史中寻找什么，如果他们有任何类型的销售印记。
They could be selling Girl Scout cookies, or tickets to some event, or they work for a non-profit for while.
他们可能会出售女童子军饼干或某些活动的门票，或者为非营利组织工作一段时间。
I don't care, but I want some evidence that they've sold.
我不在乎，但我想要一些他们已经出售的证据。
I want some evidence that they're comfortable getting on the phone or showing up at meetings or showing up at events.
我想要一些证据来证明他们愿意接听电话、出席会议或出席活动。
So, that they've done it before should be reviewed or thought of creatively.
因此，应该对他们以前做过的事情进行回顾或创造性地思考。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Now for more senior roles, I want an explicit.
Jonathan Lowenhar：现在对于更高级的角色，我想要一个明确的。
We think of, for example, for executives, Lenny, we think there are three types of executives that startups end up hiring over time.
例如，我们认为，对于高管，莱尼，我们认为随着时间的推移，初创公司最终会雇佣三种类型的高管。
We call them the architect, the optimizer, and the scaler.
我们称他们为架构师、优化者和缩放者。
The architect, let's use sales as an example.
架构师，我们以销售为例。
This is someone who has to build a playbook.
这是必须制定剧本的人。
So they're going to uncomfortably stay close to the founder, watch and listen, and listen to recordings and pick their brain to pull the magic from the founder of like, oh, here's the dance that she or he goes through to actually close a deal and they write first playbook.
因此，他们会不舒服地呆在创始人身边，观看、聆听、聆听录音，并用他们的大脑从创始人那里汲取魔力，哦，这是她或他为真正达成交易而经历的舞蹈，然后他们写了第一本剧本。
And the goal of the codification of that is so you can bring on a first account exec and the next account exec because account execs back to our language earlier in this adult children dynamic are children.
编纂的目标是，您可以引入第一个客户执行官和下一个客户执行官，因为在这个成人儿童动态中，帐户执行官回到我们的语言之前是儿童。
You need to give them structure for them to win.
你需要为他们提供获胜的结构。
That's the architect.
那是建筑师。
The optimizer, this is someone who's now going from a few account execs to maybe 10, 15 and we now have targets we have to hit.
优化人员现在从几个客户经理增加到可能有 10、15 个，我们现在有必须达到的目标。
The business is now reaching a different level of professionalism and expectation and you have to optimize that earlier playbook to try and find more efficiency and performance out of it.
现在，企业的专业水平和期望达到了不同的水平，您必须优化早期的策略，以尝试从中找到更高的效率和性能。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The scaler is saying, okay, now how do I find leverage?
Jonathan Lowenhar：定标者说，好吧，现在我如何找到杠杆？
How do I have 10X more account execs or how to get other people to sell for me?
我如何拥有 10 倍以上的客户经理或如何让其他人为我销售？
They're all going to be called VP of sales or chief revenue officer.
他们都将被称为销售副总裁或首席营收官。
They're completely different archetypes, and that same person exists in engineering and in product, et cetera.
他们是完全不同的原型，并且同一个人存在于工程和产品等领域。
In those cases, I only would want to bring on an architect if they'd been an architect before.
在这种情况下，我只想聘请一位曾经是建筑师的建筑师。
If they'd only been an optimizer, they're going to fail because they've never written playbook from scratch.
如果他们只是一个优化器，他们就会失败，因为他们从未从头开始编写剧本。
Lenny Rachitsky: It touches on a conversation I had recently.
Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到我最近的一次谈话。
It was a live podcast recording with Shreyas Doshi at my summit where he talks about a lot of people are really frustrated at work because they're in the wrong one of those buckets, essentially.
这是 Shreyas Doshi 在我的峰会上录制的现场播客，他谈到很多人在工作中确实感到沮丧，因为本质上他们属于错误的类别。
Like you enjoy certain type of work and your job is not doing that type of work, whether it's in your case scaling or optimizing.
就像您喜欢某种类型的工作，而您的工作不是做那种类型的工作，无论是在您的情况下扩展还是优化。
And so, it just reminds that if you're frustrated at work, you're in the wrong job in terms of the type of output they're trying to expect from you.
因此，它只是提醒您，如果您在工作中感到沮丧，那么就他们对您的期望而言，您的工作是错误的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The story in my head is that talking to me and my colleagues sometimes can feel a little like death by frameworks.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我脑海中的故事是，与我和我的同事交谈有时感觉有点像被框架杀死。
We have one for everything and in this example, I think if you're going to be sustainably successful in any kind of job, I don't care what it is, three things have to be true.
我们有一个解决一切问题的方法，在这个例子中，我认为如果你想在任何一种工作中持续取得成功，我不在乎它是什么，三件事必须是正确的。
You have to be good at it, you have to like it, and the market has to give a shit about it.
你必须擅长它，你必须喜欢它，而市场必须对此不屑一顾。
And if one of those is off, you're not staying in that job long.
如果其中一项缺失，你就不会在这份工作上呆太久。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And this touches on the name of your firm, Enjoy The Work, got to enjoy the work to make it sustainable.
这涉及到你们公司的名字，享受工作，必须享受工作才能使其可持续发展。
Okay, one other thing.
好吧，还有一件事。
So one other follow up question real quick on the hiring and then I want to talk about one other bucket of work.
因此，另一个关于招聘的后续问题非常快，然后我想谈谈另一类工作。
And again, I think each of these could be like an hour, two hour long podcast conversation.
再说一次，我认为每一个都可能像是一个小时、两个小时长的播客对话。
I love that there's this recurring theme of working backwards to inform what you do today.
我喜欢这个反复出现的主题，即向后工作来了解你今天所做的事情。
So earlier you talked about working backwards from what the outcome you want next for your business, whether it's fundraising or exit or winding down.
早些时候，您谈到了从您想要的企业下一步结果开始逆向工作，无论是融资、退出还是倒闭。
And for hiring, you have the similar advice, work backwards from what you want this person to achieve in the first year, whether it's drive this sort of growth in the product or drive sales.
对于招聘，你有类似的建议，从你希望这个人在第一年实现的目标开始倒推，无论是推动产品的这种增长还是推动销售。
I guess anything else there of just the power of working backwards versus the typical approach for hiring, you talked about job descriptions.
我想除了逆向工作与典型招聘方法的力量之外，您还谈到了职位描述。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Hiring is never the goal and it's often the first thing that we'll hear from a founder, "I have to hire this person." One, that is so dangerous for confirmation bias.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：招聘从来都不是目标，而我们从创始人听到的第一句话往往是“我必须雇用这个人。”第一，这对于确认偏差来说非常危险。
The hiring manager is always the one most burdened by that particular bias, but it's also hiring is never the goal.
招聘经理始终是受这种特定偏见影响最严重的人，但招聘也从来不是目标。
We will pull them back to over and over and over again, which of the three milestones matter, right?
我们将一次又一次地将它们拉回到这三个里程碑中，哪一个重要，对吧？
Fundraise, exit, profitability.
融资、退出、盈利。
What has to change about the business, for example, to get to that fundraise?
例如，为了筹集资金，业务必须做出哪些改变？
How do we quantify that change?
我们如何量化这种变化？
Some sort of goal setting framework.
某种目标设定框架。
OKRs, EOs, I don't care.
OKR、EO，我不在乎。
All goal setting frameworks have the same bones.
所有目标设定框架都有相同的骨架。
There's some description of it, there's some quantification of it, there's some work that has to be done.
有一些描述，有一些量化，还有一些工作需要完成。
There's some accountability rituals with clear owners and clear agreements.
有一些责任仪式，有明确的所有者和明确的协议。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So once I actually have the quantification of here's what work needs to be done, I now know what resources I need to be able to pull that work forward and therefore now I know what kind of humans I need, whether I'm hiring or renting.
Jonathan Lowenhar：因此，一旦我真正量化了需要完成的工作，我现在就知道我需要哪些资源来推动这项工作，因此现在我知道我需要什么样的人，无论是雇用还是租用。
And that should drive the conversation, not the, "Oh God, I need another PM." It's no, here's the set of features that we've said matter most this year.
这应该推动对话，而不是“天哪，我需要另一位总理”。不，这是我们所说的今年最重要的一组功能。
Here's the gap in the resources we have and the resources we need, that's why we're hiring this role.
这是我们拥有的资源和我们需要的资源之间的差距，这就是我们雇用这个职位的原因。
And here's what success would look like 12 months from now or six months from now.
以下是 12 个月后或 6 个月后成功的样子。
So they're tying back to what would change about the business.
因此，他们正在关注业务的变化。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And this is this recurring theme of our work with our founders.
Jonathan Lowenhar：这是我们与创始人合作时反复出现的主题。
They're so in it Lenny that they rarely have time to sit above what they're working on.
莱尼，他们太投入了，以至于很少有时间专注于自己正在做的事情。
This notion of working in the business versus on the business.
这种在企业工作与在企业工作的概念。
And so much of our work is to separate them from the day-to-day, which is enormously important, not in any way denigrating it, and I need to know where I'm headed and why, and how I'm going to measure progress along the way.
我们的大部分工作都是将它们与日常工作分开，这是非常重要的，而不是以任何方式贬低它，我需要知道我要去哪里，为什么，以及我将如何衡量一路上的进展。
And so, so much of what we're doing with them is to say, I want to hear from you what you think success looks like.
因此，我们与他们所做的大部分事情就是说，我想听听你的看法，你认为成功是什么样的。
I'm going to push back and pressure test a bunch of things.
我要对很多事情进行回溯和压力测试。
Can we define that in a way?
我们能以某种方式定义它吗？
Can we agree on who needs to do the work along the way, and how we're going to keep checking on it to keep feedback loop short?
我们能否就谁需要在此过程中完成这项工作以及我们将如何继续检查以保持反馈循环简短达成一致？
Now we can go back into business and then we'll check again in a week or in a month.
现在我们可以恢复营业，然后我们将在一周或一个月内再次检查。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
That's actually a great segue to the final bucket I want to spend some time on which is growth and go to market.
这实际上是我想花一些时间讨论增长和进入市场的最后一个目标的一个很好的延续。
Another area that many founders have never worked on before.
这是许多创始人以前从未涉足过的另一个领域。
A lot of founders are like, Hey, I have this awesome idea.
很多创始人都会说，嘿，我有一个很棒的想法。
I'm going to build this awesome product.
我将打造这个很棒的产品。
I know how to do that.
我知道该怎么做。
I know what market needs.
我知道市场需要什么。
But building a go-to-market motion to get it into people's hands is a whole different skill.
但制定进入市场的行动以将其交到人们手中是一项完全不同的技能。
We spent a lot of time on this on the podcast, you have a really cool simple framework of just how to think about go-to-market.
我们在播客上花了很多时间讨论这个问题，你有一个非常酷的简单框架来思考如何进入市场。
There's all this like, oh, you need a go-to-market strategy.
这一切就像，哦，你需要一个进入市场的策略。
Talk about how you talk to founders about thinking about what it takes to put together a go-to-market plan and how to make it a repeatable motion versus just I'm just going to go to people and try to sell them.
谈谈你如何与创始人讨论如何制定上市计划以及如何使其成为可重复的动议，而不是我只是去找人们并尝试向他们推销。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Our founders, even the most capable of them find this topic pretty overwhelming because it branches into so many areas.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们的创始人，即使是最有能力的创始人，也发现这个话题相当令人难以承受，因为它涉及到如此多的领域。
So we do try and distill it to something that is in bite-sized chunks.
所以我们确实尝试将其提炼成一口大小的东西。
We think of it in four pieces.
我们将其分为四个部分。
The first piece is ideal customer profile.
第一部分是理想的客户档案。
Who do we really want to sell to?
我们真正想卖给谁？
What are their qualifications?
他们有什么资格？
What are the discovery questions we would use to get to those qualifications?
我们将使用哪些发现问题来获得这些资格？
What are the kill criteria to know that this is fool's goal, this really isn't the human?
杀戮标准是什么才能知道这是傻子的目标，这真的不是人类？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Second bucket, loosely called marketing.
Jonathan Lowenhar：第二个桶，宽松地称为营销。
But within that marketing is also positioning.
但在营销中也包括定位。
So what is our uncommon denominator from the enemies?
那么我们与敌人的不同之处是什么？
So who are we competing against?
那么我们在和谁竞争呢？
Is it actual companies or is it status quo in some sort?
是实际的公司还是某种现状？
What are they great at?
他们擅长什么？
What are we great at?
我们擅长什么？
What are we great at that they're not?
我们擅长什么而他们不擅长？
Then how do we represent that in the world?
那么我们如何在世界上代表它呢？
That's branding and artifacts and identity work, et cetera.
这就是品牌、文物和身份工作等等。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Next is demand gen, which we'll simplify to say, how do we go find the humans we want?
Jonathan Lowenhar：接下来是需求生成，我们将其简化为，我们如何找到我们想要的人？
I've long loved the book Traction that Gabriel Weinberg...
我一直很喜欢加布里埃尔·温伯格（Gabriel Weinberg）的《牵引力》（Traction）这本书……
I'm going to forget unfortunately the co-author's name right now, Jason Mares?
不幸的是，我现在要忘记合著者的名字了，Jason Mares？
Sorry.
对不起。
Where they talk about the 19 channels that all companies have availability to, they're the same ones.
当他们谈论所有公司都可以使用的 19 个渠道时，它们都是相同的。
Now the book has got a couple of years on it, so there are a couple of new channels that have popped out since, but what we then try and expand the aperture for our founders is rather than just think about meeting your next customer through however you did at your last company, availability bias, instead, which of these might make most sense next?
现在这本书已经写了几年了，所以从那以后出现了一些新的渠道，但我们随后尝试为我们的创始人扩大视野，而不是仅仅考虑通过你在上一家公司所做的方式来满足你的下一个客户，可用性偏见，相反，接下来哪一个可能最有意义？
A simple two by two matrix can work here like some experimentation, some brain writing.
一个简单的二乘二矩阵可以在这里发挥作用，就像一些实验、一些大脑写作一样。
Love brain writing, not brainstorming.
喜欢动脑写作，而不是头脑风暴。
I know you've talked about that on prior pods.
我知道您在之前的 Pod 中已经谈到过这一点。
And then high impact, low effort.
然后是高影响、低努力。
Can we think of the three or four experiments we want to run by channel?
我们能想到我们想要按渠道进行的三到四个实验吗？
Let's go play.
我们去玩吧。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And then fourth, sales.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：第四，销售。
And this is the codification of a playbook.
这是剧本的编纂。
How are we having the conversation?
我们的对话怎么样？
How are we doing discovery?
我们如何进行发现？
How are we handling objections?
我们如何处理异议？
How are we doing demo?
我们如何做演示？
How are we moving to close?
我们要如何关闭？
If we can get through those four, then we can start to talk about deployment and customer success and upselling and account management, et cetera, et cetera.
如果我们能完成这四个任务，那么我们就可以开始讨论部署和客户成功、追加销售和客户管理等等。
Those are good problems to have.
这些都是好问题。
Oh my god, my install base is so large, I need to manage it.
天哪，我的安装基础如此之大，我需要管理它。
Great, great fricking problem.
太棒了，太他妈的问题了。
But we try and break this complexity of going from individually selling to building a machine into just these four buckets.
但我们试图打破从单独销售到制造机器的复杂性，将其分为这四个部分。
Who am I selling to?
我要卖给谁？
What do we want to say about ourselves?
关于我们自己，我们想说什么？
How do we reach them?
我们如何联系他们？
How do we close them?
我们如何关闭它们？
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I was going to summarize that.
我正想总结一下。
You did an excellent job there.
你在那里做得非常出色。
Before we follow up on this, you mentioned this term brain writing.
在我们跟进这个问题之前，您提到了“大脑写作”这个词。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Oh, first time I heard of this was Adam Grant.
乔纳森·洛文哈（Jonathan Lowenhar）：哦，我第一次听说这个是亚当·格兰特（Adam Grant）。
I don't know if he's the originator of the idea.
我不知道他是不是这个想法的创始人。
Brainstorming, you talked about this a bit in your Annie Duke podcast as well of how horribly coercive meetings can be.
集思广益，你在安妮·杜克播客中谈到了这一点，以及会议的强制性是多么可怕。
Lenny Rachitsky: For brainstorming, especially.
Lenny Rachitsky：尤其是头脑风暴。
Jonathan Lowenhar: For brainstorming especially.
Jonathan Lowenhar：尤其是头脑风暴。
And so, what many of our founders don't recognize because they just see like, Hey, I'm just sitting around a table with a group of folks I respect, so we can just debate things as peers.
因此，我们的许多创始人都没有意识到这一点，因为他们只是看到，嘿，我只是和一群我尊敬的人坐在一张桌子旁，所以我们可以像同行一样辩论事情。
No, you can't.
不，你不能。
You're a founder.
你是一位创始人。
Your voice has a megaphone attached to it even if you can't hear it.
即使您听不到，您的声音也带有扩音器。
So you have to turn down the megaphone if you actually want to learn what your people have to say.
因此，如果你真的想了解你的员工要说什么，你就必须关掉扩音器。
So brain writing is I'm going to expose an idea and I want everyone to now write and weigh in on there...
所以大脑写作是我要揭露一个想法，我希望每个人现在都写下来并对此发表意见......
it could be in a survey, it could be in a shared doc, what have you, my preferences in through some sort of methodology, you are now sharing your opinions, comments, edits, dreams, in an async way that no one else can see until it's all combined, maybe even ideally without authorship identified.
它可以是在一项调查中，也可以是在一个共享文档中，你有什么，我的偏好通过某种方法，你现在正在以一种异步的方式分享你的观点、评论、编辑、梦想，在所有这些都合并之前没有人能看到，甚至可能理想情况下没有确定作者身份。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Then when the founders weigh in, you don't know, they're just a part of the mass.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：那么当创始人介入时，你不知道，他们只是大众的一部分。
Let everyone read the thing.
让每个人都读一下这个东西。
I even like the Amazon, take the first 10 minutes of a meeting, let's just go read so we're all fully present and then have a debate.
我什至喜欢亚马逊，在会议的前 10 分钟，我们先阅读一下，这样我们就可以全神贯注，然后进行辩论。
What it allows for is the dampening of the founder effect in meetings.
它可以抑制会议中的创始人效应。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're just so full of golden nuggets.
Lenny Rachitsky：你真是充满了金块。
That's just like a random tangent that I think could be really transformative for a lot of teams.
这就像一个随机的切线，我认为这对很多团队来说可能是真正的变革。
So the advice here is just when you're trying to ideate and brainstorm, don't go in a big room and put post- its on a wall and talk throughout ideas and have a discussion.
所以这里的建议是，当你试图构思和集思广益时，不要走进一个大房间，把便利贴贴在墙上，然后谈论各种想法并进行讨论。
Instead, just everyone individually sits and thinks and shares their thoughts and the founder presents, here's a problem, here's a question we're trying to tackle.
相反，每个人都单独坐下来思考并分享他们的想法，创始人提出，这是一个问题，这是我们试图解决的问题。
Jonathan Lowenhar: What it also allows for is an evening of the playing field between fast processors and slow processors, introverts and extroverts, because they're all equally potentially talented in your room, but if you do live brainstorming, you have diminished all the folks that prefer to sit and chew on something first.
Jonathan Lowenhar：它还允许快速处理者和慢速处理者、内向者和外向者之间有一个公平的竞争环境，因为他们在你的房间里都有同样的潜在才华，但如果你进行现场头脑风暴，你就会减少所有喜欢先坐下来咀嚼东西的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's very much me.
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我。
That's exactly how I operate.
我就是这么做的。
I need to think and process.
我需要思考和处理。
I'm not on the spot quick thinker person.
我不是一个头脑敏捷的人。
So 100% fan of this approach.
所以 100% 喜欢这种方法。
Let me come back to your go-to-market framework.
让我回到您的上市框架。
I have the notes pulled up here.
我把笔记拉到这里了。
So basically if you're a founder or even a product builder and you're trying to think about how do I...
所以基本上，如果你是创始人甚至是产品构建者，并且你正在尝试思考我如何......
people keep telling me I need a go to market plan, I need to grow this thing.
人们一直告诉我，我需要一个进入市场的计划，我需要发展这个东西。
How do I think about this?
我怎么看待这个问题？
You're basically saying there's these four buckets to think about; who are you selling to?
你基本上是说有这四个方面需要考虑；你要卖给谁？
How are you going to motivate them and get them excited to buy your thing?
您将如何激励他们并让他们兴奋地购买您的东西？
How do you reach them?
你如何联系他们？
And then how do you close them?
那么如何关闭它们呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: Luckily I have podcasts and newsletter posts on every single one of these buckets, if folks want to pursue each one of these.
Lenny Rachitsky：幸运的是，如果人们想追寻其中的每一个，我在每一个桶上都有播客和时事通讯帖子。
I have templates for ICPs, marketing advice, all these things.
我有 ICP、营销建议等所有内容的模板。
So that's good news.
这是个好消息。
There's a lot of content for people to read if they want to explore this stuff.
如果人们想探索这些东西，有很多内容可供阅读。
Let me ask you, where do you often find the biggest bang for your buck when you come to a founder or if founder comes to you and they're like, I need to figure out, go-to-market motions?
让我问你，当你去找创始人时，你通常在哪里找到最划算的，或者如果创始人来找你，他们会说，我需要弄清楚，进入市场的动议？
Just start from the top and work your way down.
只需从顶部开始，然后一路向下即可。
Or is there, here's where maybe you want to spend a lot of time.
或者在那里，也许你想在这里度过很多时间。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Early stage founders, and this is certainly more true for the first timers Lenny than the veterans 'cause they learn this problem.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：早期创始人，这对于新手莱尼来说肯定比老手更真实，因为他们知道这个问题。
The first timers are like twenty-something year olds in a bar and they're being social for the first time in their lives, and anyone that makes eye contact with them is enough for them to say, I want to go on a date with you.
第一次约会的人就像是二十多岁的年轻人在酒吧里，这是他们一生中第一次进行社交活动，任何与他们目光接触的人都足以让他们说，我想和你约会。
That's it.
就是这样。
There's no discrimination of any kind, like, oh my god, they like me, I'm in.
没有任何形式的歧视，比如，天哪，他们喜欢我，我就加入了。
That's the mistake that hounds first timers.
这是新手常犯的错误。
The veterans and those we get our hands on.
退伍军人和我们接触到的人。
Instead, we say, let's imagine you could build your perfect customer in a lab, like a Petri dish and you grew them, what do they look like?
相反，我们说，让我们想象一下，你可以在实验室中培养你的完美客户，就像培养皿一样，然后你培养它们，它们是什么样子的？
And if you have any kind of install base, I'll ask the question.
如果您有任何类型的安装基础，我会问这个问题。
I just did this with the founder the other day.
前几天我刚刚和创始人一起做了这件事。
They are enterprise whale hunting business.
他们是企业捕鲸业务。
They have four large customers.
他们有四个大客户。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, actually whale...
Lenny Rachitsky：等等，实际上是鲸鱼......
okay, whale hunting in terms of large wealth person or actual whales?
好吧，捕鲸是指大富翁还是真正的鲸鱼？
Jonathan Lowenhar: The extreme of enterprise selling.
Jonathan Lowenhar：企业销售的极端。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, okay, got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，好的，明白了。
I want to see a whale hunting startup.
我想看看捕鲸初创公司。
Okay, go on.
好吧，继续吧。
Jonathan Lowenhar: I said, so which of your four customers is your favorite?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：我说，那么您最喜欢您的四个客户中的哪一个？
Which one, if I got them on the phone, they would rave about you.
哪一个，如果我给他们打电话，他们会对你赞不绝口。
They would be salivating openly with a chance to evangelize what you're doing for them.
他们会公开垂涎欲滴，有机会宣传你为他们所做的事情。
And they was like, oh, that's clear.
他们说，哦，这很清楚。
It's this one of the four.
就是这四个之一。
Great.
伟大的。
Tell me about them.
告诉我关于他们的事。
And what you start to see and pull apart from that is the founder does have an ideal profile.
你开始看到并从中分离出来的是，创始人确实拥有理想的形象。
They do have a dream.
他们确实有一个梦想。
Now, there are all sorts of risks about is the world too small?
现在，存在着各种各样的风险：世界太小了吗？
Is it not a big enough market if they get too tight, and founders get so caught up in that and it's a mistake because all we're-
如果市场变得太紧，而创始人又陷入其中，这是一个错误，因为我们都在——
Jonathan Lowenhar: ...
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：...
so caught up in that, and it's a mistake.
所以陷入其中，这是一个错误。
Because all we're looking for in the beginning is a white-hot center of opportunity, a small population that is an enormous fan that's getting enormous impact.
因为我们一开始所寻找的只是一个白热化的机会中心，一小群人是一个巨大的粉丝，但却产生了巨大的影响。
We can worry about adjacencies and expansion later.
我们可以稍后再考虑邻接和扩展。
I like to remind them that Amazon just sold books.
我想提醒他们，亚马逊只是卖书。
We can start with one thing and be great at it.
我们可以从一件事开始，然后把它做好。
So where the founders often get hung up on for us is that they've moved towards selling without contemplating ideal customer profile, without contemplating qualifications, without contemplating discovery questions that get to that.
因此，创始人经常让我们困扰的是，他们在没有考虑理想的客户档案、没有考虑资格、没有考虑与之相关的发现问题的情况下就转向了销售。
And most importantly, kill criteria, if this is true do not sign them, even if they want to go out on a date with you.
最重要的是，杀死标准，如果这是真的，不要签署它们，即使他们想和你出去约会。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you said that because that's exactly what I believe and I hear often on this podcast is how underappreciated picking your customers in early leads are.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你这么说，因为这正是我所相信的，而且我经常在这个播客中听到的是，在早期潜在客户中挑选客户是多么不被重视。
And if you think about this funnel you described, figure out who you're selling to, how do you motivate them, find them and then sell them, all this trickles down from who are you going after.
如果你考虑一下你所描述的这个漏斗，弄清楚你要卖给谁，你如何激励他们，找到他们然后卖掉他们，所有这些都会从你要追随的人身上流淌下来。
You will know how to motivate them if you know who you're talking to versus the opposite.
如果你知道自己在和谁交谈，而不是相反的人，你就会知道如何激励他们。
If you're talking to everyone-
如果你和每个人说话——
Jonathan Lowenhar: It's the most expensive mistake of those four.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：这是这四个错误中代价最昂贵的一个。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Is there anything else on go-to-market or growth you think might be helpful just to touch on before we close up our conversation?
在我们结束对话之前，您认为还有什么关于上市或增长的问题可能会有所帮助吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: The one thing I'll share, this goes back to the ready, fire, aim that we talked about earlier, is that there's implicitly a funnel, mathematical funnel, to what we just described.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我要分享的一件事，这又回到了我们之前谈到的准备、开火、目标，那就是我们刚才描述的内容隐含着一个漏斗，数学漏斗。
And founders often make the mistake when planning for the year ahead of I need to be at this revenue to justify this multiple.
创始人在规划未来一年时经常犯错误，我需要达到这个收入才能证明这个倍数是合理的。
And then all of the funnel math is a plug, and that's death, as opposed to here's what's been true for the last three months, six months, nine months, 12 months.
然后所有的漏斗数学都被堵塞了，那就是死亡，而不是过去三个月、六个月、九个月、12 个月的真实情况。
And then what assumptions can I reasonably make with ways I'm going to influence that funnel going forward, to go build up to where I think I'll be a year from now?
然后，我可以合理地做出哪些假设，以影响该漏斗的未来发展，以达到我认为一年后的水平？
And it just lowers the bias that your planning process operates with.
它只会降低你的规划过程中存在的偏见。
Jonathan Lowenhar: But when a founder starts from a place of, "I have to get to 3 million or we're dead," you're already dead.
Jonathan Lowenhar：但是，当创始人从“我必须达到 300 万，否则我们就死了”这样的想法开始时，你就已经死了。
As opposed to what do I really believe I can do to get there, changing top of the funnel, changing conversion rates along the way, changing a deal size or deal length, et cetera based on my recent history, and then have a conversation about the gap between where I think the business reasonably can get with some ambition, and where I think I need to be financially, because that's the more mature conversation and that's the one the ready, fire, aim CEO doesn't have.
与我真正相信我能做些什么来实现这一目标相反，根据我最近的历史，改变漏斗的顶部，改变转化率，改变交易规模或交易长度等等，然后讨论我认为业务可以合理实现的目标与我认为我需要在财务上达到的目标之间的差距，因为这是更成熟的对话，而这是准备好的、火热的、有目标的首席执行官所没有的。
That's the one most founders have only started to learn to have over the last few years when capital dried up.
这是大多数创始人在过去几年资本枯竭时才开始学会的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I love just how practical and real talk your advice always ends up being.
我喜欢你的建议总是那么实际和真实。
Speaking of that, I emailed a founder that you work with and asked him, "What should I ask?
说到这一点，我给一位与你共事的创始人发了电子邮件，问他：“我应该问什么？
What should I ask Jonathan when he comes on the podcast?"
当乔纳森参加播客时我应该问他什么？”
Lenny Rachitsky: And he said something that was really...
Lenny Rachitsky：他说了一些非常......
That's great.
太好了。
It was really unexpected what he said.
他这番话，实在是出乎我的意料。
He said that the biggest lesson he learned from you is to, as a founder, to trust his intuition more throughout the journey of his startup.
他说，他从你身上学到的最大的教训是，作为创始人，在整个创业过程中要更加相信自己的直觉。
Can you just talk about that as something you've learned, something you've seen, that maybe founders under appreciate?
您能否将其视为您学到的东西、您看到的东西、也许创始人不欣赏的东西？
Jonathan Lowenhar: It's impossible not to be a startup CEO and not face many existential moments.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：不成为一家初创公司的首席执行官，不面对许多关乎生存的时刻是不可能的。
Is my company going to survive?
我的公司还能生存吗？
Did I make a mistake?
我做错了吗？
Will I ever be hired again?
我会再次被雇用吗？
Should I sell the company now?
我现在应该卖掉公司吗？
Should I break up with a co-founder?
我应该与联合创始人分手吗？
Should I fire this critical employee?
我应该解雇这位关键员工吗？
They happen to all of us.
它们发生在我们所有人身上。
And fear is not a good decision maker.
恐惧并不是一个好的决策者。
Our lizard brain is a really bad decision maker in those moments.
在那些时刻，我们的蜥蜴脑是一个非常糟糕的决策者。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And so what we'll often share with the founder who's facing one of these scenarios, and I know the CEO you're describing and he's facing one of these scenarios, we'll say to them, "Do you know that little voice when you get really still, the quiet one that says you should marry this person, you should take this job, you should start this company?
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：因此，我们经常会与面临这些场景之一的创始人分享，我知道你所描述的首席执行官，他也面临着这些场景之一，我们会对他们说，“你知道当你真正安静时那个小声音吗？那个安静的声音说你应该嫁给这个人，你应该接受这份工作，你应该创办这家公司？
Watch out for that human, they're a bad one." And most of the time, Lenny, when I frame it that way the person across me says, "Yeah, I know that voice." And I'll ask, "How do you hear it?" And they're usually some version of, "I have to get really alone, really still, really quiet, walk on the beach, listen to music, work out, play with my pet."
小心那个人，他们是坏人。”大多数时候，莱尼，当我这样构想时，我对面的人会说：“是的，我认识那个声音。”我会问：“你是怎么听到的？”它们通常是这样的：“我必须非常孤独，非常安静，非常安静，在海滩上散步，听音乐，锻炼身体，和我的宠物一起玩。”
Jonathan Lowenhar: I said that voice is who you are.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：我说那个声音就是你。
It's not your brain.
这不是你的大脑。
Your brain is a tool.
你的大脑是一个工具。
It's our hands, it's our feet, just a tool.
这是我们的手，这是我们的脚，只是一个工具。
It's a pattern recognition machine.
这是一个模式识别机器。
But who you are, if you can watch your brain, you know what you're thinking, like, oh, look what my brain's doing.
但你是谁，如果你能观察你的大脑，你就知道你在想什么，就像，哦，看看我的大脑在做什么。
That means you're not your brain.
这意味着你不是你的大脑。
It's something else.
这是另一回事。
And that's the little voice, and that little voice is going to be right.
这就是那个小声音，那个小声音是对的。
And where we get screwed up in life is when we stop listening to that voice, when the mania of our chaos of our lives get in the way of that voice.
当我们停止聆听那个声音，当我们生活中混乱的狂热阻碍了那个声音时，我们的生活就会陷入困境。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And so whenever our founders face one of those moments, it's not a framework, it's not a playbook, or even a directed piece of advice from us to say, "You should just go left.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：因此，每当我们的创始人面临这样的时刻时，这不是一个框架，不是一个剧本，甚至不是我们的直接建议：“你应该向左走。
I've seen this before.
我以前见过这个。
Go left." Nope.
向左走。”没有。
I trust founder intuition.
我相信创始人的直觉。
If the founder says this business is still going to work, or this co-founder is the wrong person, or yes, it's time to sell, I'm in.
如果创始人说这家公司仍然可以运作，或者这位联合创始人是错误的人选，或者是的，是时候出售了，我就加入。
We're just here to support them.
我们只是来这里支持他们。
And we try and be the only person in their life that is fully on their team because we're not on the preferred side of the CAFS table.
我们努力成为他们生命中唯一完全属于他们团队的人，因为我们不在 CAFS 桌子上的首选一方。
We're not fiduciary, we're not board members, not a co-founder, none of those things.
我们不是受托人，我们不是董事会成员，不是联合创始人，这些都不是。
And so in those moments we'll just say, "Can you get really quiet?"
所以在那些时刻我们只会说：“你能安静点吗？”
Jonathan Lowenhar: And the founder you're talking about, I have the story in my head, he was facing a breakup moment with his co-founder, and I asked him, because he's good at getting quiet, "What did the voice say to you way back when?" And the voice said to him, "This is the wrong fit.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：你所说的创始人，我脑子里有这个故事，他正面临着与联合创始人分手的时刻，我问他，因为他很擅长保持安静，“那个声音当时对你说了什么？”那声音对他说：“这不合适。
This isn't going to work.
这是行不通的。
He believes in different things than I do, and that's going to go badly." But the lizard brain didn't want to believe that, and so it took another year.
他所信仰的事物与我不同，这将会很糟糕。”但蜥蜴大脑不愿意相信这一点，所以又过了一年。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
I had tingles throughout that entire piece of advice.
整个建议让我感到一阵刺痛。
I love how it's also very applicable to just life, not even just being a founder.
我喜欢它也非常适用于生活，甚至不仅仅是作为创始人。
It's a good reminder to trust that voice more.
这是一个很好的提醒，要更加相信这个声音。
It's interesting that this also connects to founder-mode a little bit, and I'm curious how you think about that where a lot of the founder-mode advice is like trust your judgment, don't hire people to delegate things away.
有趣的是，这也与创始人模式有一点联系，我很好奇你如何看待创始人模式的很多建议，比如相信你的判断，不要雇佣人把事情委托给别人。
Do you see a difference in the core idea of founder-mode and just like, but you should actually trust your intuition more?
您是否看到创始人模式的核心思想有所不同，但您实际上应该更相信自己的直觉？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Intuition comes from, in my point of view, a deep understanding of self, and the capacity to get quiet and be well resourced, meaning you've slept well and you've eaten well and you have enough love in your world.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：在我看来，直觉来自于对自我的深刻理解，以及保持安静和资源充足的能力，这意味着你睡得很好，吃得很好，并且在你的世界中有足够的爱。
And I think what founder-mode can confuse is my intuition says I should just do this job for them and fire these three people.
我认为创始人模式可能令人困惑的是我的直觉告诉我我应该为他们做这项工作并解雇这三个人。
That's not intuition, that's reaction, that's a fear response.
那不是直觉，那是反应，那是恐惧反应。
And when the founder says, "I sat with this, I felt it out, I can see it.
当创始人说：“我坐在那里，我感觉到了它，我能看到它。
I need to terminate my whole go-to-market team and start over.
我需要终止整个市场营销团队并重新开始。
This isn't working, and I have data that supports it, but I know this isn't working." I'm like, "Let's go with that.
这不起作用，我有数据支持它，但我知道这不起作用。”我想，“我们就这样吧。
I'm in.
我进来了
Let's do it."
让我们开始吧。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think you described a lot of times people feel this, and it takes a year, two years, three years, many years to actually realize that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我认为你描述了很多次人们的感受，并且需要一年、两年、三年、很多年才能真正意识到这一点。
And your advice here is try to listen to that more and trust it more.
您的建议是尝试更多地倾听并更加信任它。
Yeah.
是的。
Wow.
哇。
Okay.
好的。
Well, Jonathan to pivot our energy, is there anything else want to leave listeners with, last piece of advice, anything that you think might be helpful before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
好吧，乔纳森，请转移我们的精力，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么想给听众留下的最后一条建议吗？您认为可能有帮助的任何事情吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: To be a founder is a state of being.
Jonathan Lowenhar：成为创始人是一种存在状态。
It's an attitude, it's courage, it's instinct, it's a capacity to push through, despite all sorts of evidence suggesting you're wasting your time.
这是一种态度、勇气、本能、坚持下去的能力，尽管各种证据表明你在浪费时间。
To be a CEO is a craft.
成为首席执行官是一门手艺。
The more founders who can accept that those are two separate things and they're both equally important to build an ascendant startup, the better all of us will be.
越多的创始人能够接受这是两件不同的事情，而且它们对于建立一家蒸蒸日上的初创公司同样重要，我们所有人都会变得更好。
And so what I would encourage every founder out there that wants to go build something substantial, go work on your craft in addition to working on the business.
因此，我鼓励每一位想要做出实质性贡献的创始人，除了致力于业务之外，还要努力提高自己的技能。
Be honest with yourself about here's the shit I'm bad at.
对自己诚实一点，这就是我不擅长的事情。
I don't know how to read a financial statement.
我不知道如何阅读财务报表。
My board meetings suck.
我的董事会会议很糟糕。
Half my meetings that I have with my leadership team we all walk out of there saying what did we just accomplish right now?
在我与领导团队举行的会议中，有一半的会议结束后我们都会说我们现在刚刚完成了什么？
Or I get to the end of my workday and I'm like, I didn't get anything done.
或者当我结束一天的工作时，我想，我什么也没完成。
Those are all examples of just not taking the craft seriously enough.
这些都是没有足够认真对待这门手艺的例子。
I'll leave with that.
我会带着这个离开。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
And I think I've made the mistake during our conversation of confusing founder and CEO and assuming they're the same thing, and I really appreciate you just again pointing out to folks that that's the big distinction you got to start making is there's the founder and there's the CEO.
我想我在我们的谈话中犯了一个错误，混淆了创始人和首席执行官，并假设他们是同一件事，我真的很感谢你再次向人们指出，这是你必须开始做出的重大区别，那就是创始人和首席执行官。
Often they're same person, but different parts of your brain and different skill sets.
他们通常是同一个人，但大脑的不同部分和技能不同。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And I'm now fully off the very awkward soapbox I've been sitting on for a long time, so we can go to lightning round whenever you're ready.
乔纳森·洛文哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我现在已经完全摆脱了长期以来一直坐在那里的非常尴尬的演讲台，所以只要你准备好，我们就可以进行闪电回合。
Lenny Rachitsky: With that, we've reached our very exciting lighting round.
Lenny Rachitsky：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的灯光回合。
Jonathan, are you ready?
乔纳森，你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Jonathan Lowenhar: My number one business book that I've recommended would be Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lencioni.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我推荐的第一本商业书籍是 Patrick Lencioni 所著的《团队的五种功能障碍》。
I do think it always comes back to team.
我确实认为它总是回到团队。
The right team can solve all the things.
合适的团队可以解决所有问题。
And that book is a beautiful distillation of the most common problematic archetypes that show up in a leadership group.
这本书是对领导团队中最常见的问题原型的精彩提炼。
So that's the number one.
所以这是第一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Anything else you'd recommend?
你还有什么推荐的吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: The second one, it goes more personal.
Jonathan Lowenhar：第二个，它更加个人化。
It's a book called Untethered Soul, by Michael Singer.
这是一本名为《不受束缚的灵魂》的书，作者是迈克尔·辛格。
It was, at least for me, the first introduction to this idea that I am not my brain and that my brain can be a tool that serves me well, and at times doesn't.
至少对我来说，这是第一次认识到“我不是我的大脑，我的大脑可以成为一种为我提供良好服务的工具，但有时却不能”。
So that would be number two.
所以这将是第二位。
Lenny Rachitsky: I've started to read that book and then I never finished it, so this is a good reminder to give it another shot.
Lenny Rachitsky：我已经开始读那本书，但一直没有读完，所以这是一个很好的提醒，让我再读一次。
Second question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
第二个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: I just watched and really enjoyed, because by the way, I have a three-year-old at home, so the amount of content I now consume is reduced tremendously.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我刚刚看了并且非常喜欢，因为顺便说一句，我家里有一个三岁的孩子，所以我现在消耗的内容量大大减少了。
Well, my wife and I just watched Will & Harper.
嗯，我和我的妻子刚刚看了《威尔和哈珀》。
This is the documentary between Will Ferrell and his very dear friend who just recently transitioned.
这是威尔·法瑞尔和他刚刚变性的好朋友之间的纪录片。
They road trip across the country together, and it was freaking delightful.
他们一起公路旅行穿越整个国家，真是太令人愉快了。
It was sweet and endearing and one of the better things I've watched in a while.
这是甜蜜可爱的，是我一段时间以来看过的最好的事情之一。
Jonathan Lowenhar: TV show, Slow Horses, I'm utterly addicted.
Jonathan Lowenhar：电视节目《慢马》，我完全上瘾了。
I'm only midway through season two, but I've been voraciously sleeping less and watching more.
我才刚看完第二季，但我已经睡得越来越少，看得越来越多。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love both those.
Lenny Rachitsky：我两个都喜欢。
I just watched Will & Harper, and completely agree with your sentiment about it.
我刚刚看了《威尔和哈珀》，完全同意你的看法。
I wasn't planning to watch it.
我本来没打算看的
My mother-in-Law started watching.
我婆婆开始看。
I'm like, wow, this is really fun.
我想，哇，这真的很有趣。
It's also funny, meaningful funny.
也很有趣，很有意义的有趣。
Jonathan Lowenhar: There's so many moments in it that are really sweet.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：其中有很多非常甜蜜的时刻。
As an aside, this was '20, I don't know, April 2020, and a group of our very close friends said, "Hey, how are we going to keep in touch?" And so we started what we called Movie Club, and we routinely either pick a TV show or a movie.
顺便说一句，那是 20 年，我不知道，2020 年 4 月，我们的一群非常亲密的朋友说，“嘿，我们如何保持联系？”所以我们成立了所谓的电影俱乐部，我们通常会选择电视节目或电影。
We all watch separately and every two weeks we get together on Zoom at night, we talk about what we just watched.
我们都单独观看，每两周晚上我们都会在 Zoom 上聚在一起，讨论我们刚刚观看的内容。
Jonathan Lowenhar: And some have been great, some have been terrible.
Jonathan Lowenhar：有些很棒，有些很糟糕。
But Will & Harper was our most recent.
但威尔和哈珀是我们最近的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, such a cool tradition.
Lenny Rachitsky：哦，真是一个很酷的传统。
Okay, we'll keep going.
好的，我们会继续。
Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Could be an app, could be something physical?
可以是一个应用程序，也可以是一个物理的东西？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Two, and one is I'm going to talk my own book, but I still love it.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：两个，其中之一是我要谈论我自己的书，但我仍然喜欢它。
The first one is Aura Frames.
第一个是光环框架。
These are digital picture frames.
这些是数码相框。
They're amazing.
他们太棒了。
The UX for them is incredible, the quality of it, they're pieces of artwork.
他们的用户体验令人难以置信，其质量，他们是艺术品。
So grandparents, in-laws, parents, we have multiple in our house, just love it.
所以祖父母、姻亲、父母，我们家里有多个孩子，只是喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to clarify, it's a frame that has picked digital photos and you can give it to your mom and show photos of your kid wherever they live.
Lenny Rachitsky：澄清一下，这是一个挑选数码照片的相框，你可以把它交给你的妈妈，并展示你孩子的照片，无论他们住在哪里。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: And the combination of the ease of the software and the quality of the imagery is better than anything I've tried, and I've tried a bunch of them.
Jonathan Lowenhar：该软件的易用性和图像质量的结合比我尝试过的任何产品都要好，而且我已经尝试过很多。
A-U-R-A Frames, and this is not an Enjoy The Work company.
A-U-R-A 框架，这不是一家享受工作的公司。
This is just one I'm a giant fan of.
这只是我的超级粉丝之一。
Jonathan Lowenhar: The second one is an Enjoy The Work company called Augie Studio.
Jonathan Lowenhar：第二家是一家 Enjoy The Work 公司，名为 Augie Studio。
A-U-G-I-E Studio.
A-U-G-I-E 工作室。
This is Canva for video.
这是用于视频的 Canva。
It can turn anyone with no engineering skills whatsoever, no code video creation, with full editing tools.
它可以让任何没有任何工程技能、没有代码视频创建的人都可以使用完整的编辑工具。
So suddenly you can create branded high fidelity, high quality commercial video in minutes, with no effort.
因此，您突然可以在几分钟内毫不费力地创建品牌高保真、高质量的商业视频。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
It was built by two media tech co-founders that were building this thing pre-ChatGPT, and it's just growing like this, and it's super fun, and the guys are great.
它是由两位媒体技术联合创始人创建的，他们在 ChatGPT 之前就构建了这个东西，它就这样成长，非常有趣，而且这些人都很棒。
So A-U-G-I-E Studio.
所以 A-U-G-I-E 工作室。
Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：听起来棒极了。
Augie Studio, I could use that.
奥吉工作室，我可以用它。
That sounds awesome.
听起来棒极了。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
I feel like this one's going to be a good one.
我觉得这将是一件好事。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful and work on in life?
你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，你经常回来发现它在生活中有用并为之努力？
Jonathan Lowenhar: The first one, and the one that I probably most commonly refer to, is that there is only one life.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：第一个，也是我最常提到的一个，是生命只有一次。
The quick backstory, and I know it's a lightning round, but I'm guilty of these stories.
快速的背景故事，我知道这是一个闪电般的回合，但我对这些故事感到内疚。
I went for a walk with a girlfriend of mine a bunch of years ago.
几年前，我和一个女朋友去散步。
And we did this once a month and we would always have a pretty typical ritual of giving each other life updates to begin the walk.
我们每个月都会这样做一次，而且我们总是有一个非常典型的仪式，在开始散步时互相通报生活最新情况。
And so I started the conversation with, "So there's the family update and then there's my work life and then there's my social life." She's like, "No, no, no, no, no, stop.
所以我开始谈话，“所以有家庭的最新情况，然后是我的工作生活，然后是我的社交生活。”她就像，“不，不，不，不，不，停下来。
That's all bullshit.
这都是废话。
It's one life.
这是一个生命。
Stop assuming that there are these pretend walls between them or among them." I've lived that ever since.
不要再假设他们之间或之间有这些假装的墙。”从那时起我就一直这样生活。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So I try and show up.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：所以我尝试出现。
That phrase lets me show up the same way, no matter my setting.
无论我的环境如何，这句话都让我以同样的方式出现。
If you and I were having a beer or a meal, or if I'm sitting with one of my co-founders or clients, it doesn't matter, I show up the same way everywhere.
如果你和我正在喝啤酒或吃饭，或者如果我和我的联合创始人或客户坐在一起，没关系，我在任何地方都会以同样的方式出现。
Part of the way I enjoy the work is by having a real friendship, a real intimacy with everyone at Enjoy The Work, and including our clients as well, I want that level of conversation.
我享受工作的一部分方式是与 Enjoy The Work 的每个人建立真正的友谊和真正的亲密关系，包括我们的客户，我想要这种程度的对话。
I don't want the sterile stuff over here with my work environment versus my personal versus my family.
我不希望我的工作环境、我的个人环境和我的家庭环境中存在无菌的东西。
It's just one version of me.
这只是我的一个版本。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the phrase is, it's just one life.
Lenny Rachitsky：俗话说，这只是一种生活。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just one life.
Lenny Rachitsky：这只是一种生活。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
So you ran a casino at one point, I believe, and it was like a Harrah's Casino, is that right?
所以我相信你曾经经营过一家赌场，它就像哈拉斯赌场，对吗？
Jonathan Lowenhar: My first career was in the casino business.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我的第一份职业是赌场业务。
Jonathan Lowenhar: But before I go on, what's the question?
Jonathan Lowenhar：但在我继续之前，问题是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: The question is just is there a fun story, or experience, or lesson from that time in your life that might be fun to share?
Lenny Rachitsky：问题是你生命中那段时期是否有有趣的故事、经历或教训可以分享？
Maybe a mob involvement, or cheating, or something?
也许是暴徒参与，或者作弊，或者其他什么？
I imagine that's a unique life experience.
我想这是一次独特的人生经历。
Jonathan Lowenhar: I'll tell one of my favorite family stories then briefly.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我将简要讲述我最喜欢的家庭故事之一。
But yes, my family goes back in casino gambling in one form or another, several generations.
但是，是的，我的家族几代人都以这种或那种形式参与赌场赌博。
My great-grandmother ran a illicit poker game.
我的曾祖母经营非法扑克游戏。
My grandfather ran numbers out of a gas station.
我祖父从加油站打出了数字。
My father's been in the casino industry since Atlantic City in the 70s.
我父亲自 70 年代大西洋城以来就一直从事赌场行业。
My sister is a prominent gaming attorney, and I worked in the industry for a dozen years, so this is my family.
我的姐姐是一位著名的游戏律师，我在这个行业工作了十几年，所以这就是我的家人。
And Lenny, I didn't know any of this was weird until I was in my mid 20s.
莱尼，直到我 20 多岁的时候我才知道这有什么奇怪的。
Jonathan Lowenhar: I turned 21, and I'm old, yes, I'm going to just hide the year.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我已经 21 岁了，我老了，是的，我要隐藏年份。
I'm kidding.
我在开玩笑。
Anyway, I turned 21 and we take a family trip to Las Vegas because that was normal for us.
不管怎样，我 21 岁了，我们全家去拉斯维加斯旅行，因为这对我们来说很正常。
My father was doing a lot of work out there, so he got us hotel rooms, etc. I'd never been there before, and I was newly 21 and so my parents said, "You have $300 to gamble with.
我父亲在那里做了很多工作，所以他给我们安排了酒店房间等。我以前从未去过那里，而且我刚刚 21 岁，所以我的父母说，“你有 300 美元可以赌博。
We're going to be here for five days." This is a vacation.
我们要在这里呆五天。”这是一个假期。
My grandparents are coming in.
我的祖父母要进来了。
My uncle and aunt were coming in, and they're encouraging me, "This is all up to you, but try not to lose it all on night number one," which was good advice to give me.
我的叔叔和阿姨进来了，他们鼓励我，“这完全取决于你，但尽量不要在第一晚失去一切，”这是给我的好建议。
I was 21 and I was pretty much a schmuck at the time.
我当时 21 岁，当时我简直就是个傻瓜。
But also, part of my experience being there was to interview for a summer internship.
而且，我在那里的部分经历是面试暑期实习。
I was a college going to be junior.
我是一名即将上大三的大学。
Jonathan Lowenhar: So we go and I immediately go sit at some table and start playing some games.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔（Jonathan Lowenhar）：我们走了，我立即坐在一张桌子旁开始玩一些游戏。
And I turn $300 into a few thousand dollars in the very first evening.
第一晚我就把 300 美元变成了几千美元。
And that was exciting and it was crazy and it was wild, et cetera.
这很令人兴奋，很疯狂，很狂野，等等。
On the third night, which happens to everyone who goes to Vegas for too long, we're all delirious because all of us are staying up all night and being silly and being stupid.
第三天晚上，每个去维加斯时间太长的人都会遇到这种情况，我们都神志不清，因为我们所有人都彻夜不眠，愚蠢而愚蠢。
And my parents ask me, by the way, this is pre-cell phones, they ask me, "Hey, can you stay awake?
我的父母问我，顺便说一句，这是手机出现之前，他们问我，“嘿，你能保持清醒吗？
Your uncle and aunt are going to arrive late tonight.
你叔叔和婶婶今晚会晚点到达。
They'll call the room.
他们会打电话给房间。
You can come down and just greet them and say hello?" Sure.
你可以下来跟他们打个招呼吗？”当然。
So I get the phone call like 11: 30 at night.
所以我在晚上11点30分左右接到电话。
Go on downstairs, they're here.
下楼去吧，他们来了。
I go downstairs in the casino floor.
我下楼到赌场楼层。
We're staying at the Las Vegas Hilton.
我们住在拉斯维加斯希尔顿酒店。
It's since been renamed, but I go downstairs and I can't find them anywhere.
现在已经更名了，但我下楼却找不到它们。
I think, okay, well I have cash in my pocket and I'm now awake so I might as well gamble.
我想，好吧，好吧，我口袋里有现金，而且我现在醒了，所以我不妨去赌博一下。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Shortly thereafter, Lenny, I have an experience that happens one in 369,000 occurrences, and I win $35,421.92.
Jonathan Lowenhar：此后不久，Lenny，我经历了 369,000 次才有一次的经历，我赢得了 35,421.92 美元。
For the trip I ended up winning $40,000 that I turned $300 to, and I was just 21 years old, which has left me with one of my mantras that I've had for the rest of my life, which some people roll their eyes at, but that is gambling does pay.
这次旅行我最终赢得了 40,000 美元，然后转入了 300 美元，当时我只有 21 岁，这给我留下了我余生的口头禅之一，有些人对此不以为然，但这就是赌博确实有回报。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you remember the exact amount.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你记得确切的数量。
What games did you end up playing that helped you win so much money?
您最终玩了哪些游戏帮助您赢得了这么多钱？
Jonathan Lowenhar: The primary game that I played was Caribbean Stud Poker, where there's no skill of any kind.
Jonathan Lowenhar：我玩的主要游戏是加勒比海扑克，其中没有任何技巧。
You get five cards, the dealer gets five cards, whoever wins wins, and if you have particularly unusual hands you get odds on the hand.
你得到五张牌，庄家得到五张牌，谁赢谁就赢，如果你有特别不寻常的牌，你会得到这手牌的赔率。
And I got dealt 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 of spades in five cards.
我在五张牌中拿到了黑桃 3、4、5、6、7。
Lenny Rachitsky: I thought you'd say slots or something.
Lenny Rachitsky：我以为你会说老虎机之类的。
I love that you're just sitting there playing poker and went from $300 to $40,000.
我喜欢你坐在那里玩扑克，然后从 300 美元涨到 40,000 美元。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was a great story.
Lenny Rachitsky：那是一个很棒的故事。
I'm glad I went there.
我很高兴我去了那里。
Jonathan, this was incredible.
乔纳森，这太不可思议了。
I think we've helped a lot of founders through this conversation.
我认为我们通过这次对话帮助了很多创始人。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you guys?
人们在哪里可以找到你们？
Who would be a good fit?
谁最适合？
What should people know about Enjoy the Work?
关于享受工作，人们应该了解什么？
And finally, how can listeners be useful to you?
最后，听众如何对你有用？
Jonathan Lowenhar: Love that.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：喜欢这个。
So let me unpack those three.
那么让我来解开这三个。
The first one is enjoythework.com, or just find me on LinkedIn.
第一个是 Enjoythework.com，或者在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
I'm not hard to find.
我并不难找。
Send us a note.
给我们留言。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Who should ping us is very simple.
Jonathan Lowenhar：谁应该对我们进行 ping 操作非常简单。
If you're a founder out there, or a CEO out there, and you know in your heart that there's some gap between how you're running the business and how the company's going, and how it could be going, and how you could be running the business, if there's some gap there, we're here to help.
如果您是一名创始人或首席执行官，并且您内心知道您经营业务的方式与公司的发展方式之间存在一些差距，以及公司的发展方式和您可以如何经营业务之间存在差距，如果存在一些差距，我们会随时为您提供帮助。
Now our expertise, as we talked about in this call, is company building.
正如我们在这次电话会议中谈到的，现在我们的专长是公司建设。
So if you just have an idea on a napkin or you have a science experiment that you're not sure, we're useless, that's not us.
所以，如果你只是餐巾纸上有一个想法，或者你有一个你不确定的科学实验，我们就没用，那不是我们。
But if you have some breadcrumbs worth following, like the business is starting to work, you're a series A into B and beyond, and you know that there's better, you can see it, that's where we help.
但是，如果您有一些值得关注的线索，比如业务开始运作，您是 A 轮到 B 轮及以上，并且您知道还有更好的，您可以看到它，这就是我们提供帮助的地方。
Send us a note.
给我们留言。
Love to chat.
喜欢聊天。
Jonathan Lowenhar: How can listeners be useful to us?
Jonathan Lowenhar：听众如何对我们有用？
So we are ferocious readers.
所以我们是凶猛的读者。
All we try and do is study how do the best startups do X?
我们所做的只是研究最好的初创公司如何做某事？
From tiny things, like how do they run all hands meetings or off sites to the big meta topics of what is going to repeatable go-to-market even mean?
从微小的事情，比如他们如何召开全体会议或异地会议，到可重复的上市意味着什么等大的元主题？
Or what is financial planning in a way that's useful?
或者什么是有用的财务规划？
Or how do you set goals that won't make you roll your eyes?
或者如何设定不会让你翻白眼的目标？
We consistently learn from the ecosystem of podcasters and authors and journalists, like, go look at this material.
我们不断地从播客、作者和记者的生态系统中学习，比如，看看这些材料。
So if your listeners have a favorite X on whatever topic in running a startup, send them my way.
因此，如果您的听众对创业公司运营的任何主题有最喜欢的 X，请将其发送给我。
All we love to do is read and chew on that stuff.
我们喜欢做的就是阅读和咀嚼那些东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And the best way to send that is either through Enjoy the Work or LinkedIn.
发送信息的最佳方式是通过 Enjoy the Work 或 LinkedIn。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Jonathan, thank you so much for being here.
乔纳森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Jonathan Lowenhar: Lenny, this was so damn fun.
乔纳森·洛温哈尔：莱尼，这真是太有趣了。
Thanks for listening to my crazy casino stories.
感谢您聆听我疯狂的赌场故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to hear more, but we got to go.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想听更多，但我们得走了。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.
您可以在 lennyspodcast 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
com.
com.
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。