The crazy story of landing Uber as a client | Jonathan Becker (Thrive Digital)

Jonathan Becker: There's a lot of different ways that we are beginning to use AI to do more with less, basically.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：基本上，我们开始通过多种不同的方式使用人工智能来以更少的资源做更多的事情。

The effect ultimately that we've seen from a human capital point of view is displacement.

从人力资本的角度来看，我们最终看到的影响是位移。

We have more people now than we've ever had, but the nature of the work that they do is more strategic.

我们现在的人员比以往任何时候都多，但他们所做的工作性质更具战略性。

It's more about modeling, validation, asking the right questions, being focused around creative levers.

更多的是关于建模、验证、提出正确的问题、专注于创造性杠杆。

And less so the like trench work of implementation and bid modifiers at the keyword level on Google search, and some of the really hardcore manual analysis we had to do.

更不用说谷歌搜索上关键字级别的实施和出价修改器的沟渠工作，以及我们必须做的一些真正核心的手动分析。

Jonathan Becker: On our creative group, we can come up with mockups, in literally, 1% of the time that it took.

Jonathan Becker：在我们的创意团队中，我们可以用 1% 的时间来设计出模型。

And so you still have to understand what questions to ask of the AI and be capable of iterating, but these rough drafts that you might show the artwork of to a client to say, "Do we like this more or do we like this more?" That's AI generated.

因此，你仍然必须了解要向人工智能提出哪些问题并能够进行迭代，但是你可能会向客户展示这些粗略的草稿，然后询问“我们更喜欢这个还是我们更喜欢这个？”这是人工智能生成的。

It's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Jonathan Becker.

今天我的嘉宾是乔纳森·贝克尔。

Jonathan is a legend and an OG in the world of performance marketing.

乔纳森是效果营销领域的传奇人物和 OG。

On this podcast, we've done deep dives into the many aspects of growth, including SEO, sales, conversion optimization, retention, product led growth, product led sales.

在这个播客中，我们深入探讨了增长的许多方面，包括搜索引擎优化、销售、转化优化、保留、产品主导的增长、产品主导的销售。

But this is the first episode where we get super deep on paid growth.

但这是我们第一次深入探讨付费增长。

For the past decade plus, Jonathan and his team have planned, built, and executed more than $3.5 billion in paid acquisition budgets for companies like Uber, Asana, Square, Masterclass, Tempur-Pedic, and many more.

在过去的十多年里，Jonathan 和他的团队为 Uber、Asana、Square、Masterclass、Tempur-Pedic 等公司规划、构建和执行了超过 35 亿美元的付费收购预算。

And they've built their agency, Thrive Digital, into one of the preeminent independent digital marketing agencies.

他们将自己的代理机构 Thrive Digital 打造成卓越的独立数字营销机构之一。

In our conversation, we get real deep into all things paid growth, including what's changed with recent privacy shifts, why focusing on creatives is the new biggest opportunity within paid growth.

在我们的对话中，我们真正深入了解了付费增长的所有方面，包括最近的隐私变化带来的变化，以及为什么关注创意是付费增长中新的最大机会。

How to think about attribution, and what's changed there.

如何考虑归因，以及那里发生了什么变化。

What to look for in people you hire to run paid growth for you, how AI is already changing how paid growth teams operate, and so much more.

在你雇佣的为你运营付费增长的人员中寻找什么，人工智能已经如何改变付费增长团队的运作方式，等等。

Enjoy this episode with Jonathan Becker after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与乔纳森·贝克尔一起欣赏这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Brain Trust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.

莱尼：这一集是由 Brain Trust 为您带来的，世界上最具创新力的公司都在其中快速寻找人才，以便更快地创新。

Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company.

说实话，建立一家公司需要做很多工作。

And if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.

如果您想在竞争中保持领先地位，您需要能够快速、自信地聘用合适的人才。

Brain Trust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire, and manage high quality contractors in engineering, design, and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies.

Brain Trust 是第一个去中心化的人才网络，您可以在其中寻找、雇用和管理工程、设计和产品方面的高质量承包商，而费用仅为机构的一小部分。

Lenny: Brain Trust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%, so you can make your budget go four times further.

Lenny：Brain Trust 只收取 10% 的统一费率，与高达 70% 的代理费不同，因此您可以使预算多出四倍。

Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.

此外，他们是唯一一个收取 0% 人才收入的网络，因此他们能够吸引并留住世界上最优秀的技术人才。

Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high growth startups that have shaved their hiring process for months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Brain Trust network of 20,000 high quality vetted candidates ready to work.

以 DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 和其他数百家高增长初创公司为例，通过 Brain Trust 网络招聘 20,000 名经过审查的高素质候选人，这些公司以不到四分之一的成本，将招聘流程缩短了数月至数周。

Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upskill your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Brain Trust and you'll get matched with three candidates in just 48 hours.

无论您是想填补空缺、提高员工技能，还是为最终获得资助的梦想项目组建团队，请联系 Brain Trust，您将在短短 48 小时内找到三位候选人。

Visit usebraintrust.com/lenny, or find them in my show notes for today's episode.

请访问 usebraintrust.com/lenny，或在我今天这一集的节目笔记中找到它们。

That's usebraintrust.

这就是利用智囊团。

com/lenny for when you need talent yesterday.

com/lenny 当你昨天需要人才时。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 AssemblyAI 为您带来的。

If you're looking to build AI powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.

如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。

What I love about AssemblyAI, is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top tier research labs.

我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问顶级研究实验室的最新人工智能突破。

Product team that startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, and lots more.

产品团队表示，初创公司和企业正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话通话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、查明何时说出敏感内容等等。

All of AssemblyAI's models which are accessed through their API are production ready.

通过其 API 访问的所有 AssemblyAI 模型均已做好生产准备。

So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI, and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.

我认识的许多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 构建音频用例的最快方法。

Now's the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription plus valuable insights to your customers.

现在是时候了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松为您的客户带来最高精度的转录和有价值的见解。

Just like Spotify, CallRail, and Writer do for theirs.

就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 Writer 所做的那样。

Visit AssemblyAI.com/lenny to try their API for free, and start testing their models with their no code playground.

请访问 AssemblyAI.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用他们的无代码游乐场测试他们的模型。

That's AssemblyAI.com/lenny.

这是 AssemblyAI.com/lenny。

Lenny: Jonathan, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：乔纳森，欢迎来到播客。

Jonathan Becker: Thank you.

乔纳森·贝克尔：谢谢。

It's a pleasure to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's my pleasure.

莱尼：这是我的荣幸。

What we're going to be doing with this episode, is we're going to be digging real deep into all things paid growth, which we've never done on this podcast yet.

我们在这一集中要做的是，我们将真正深入挖掘所有付费增长的内容，这是我们在这个播客中从未做过的。

And normally I actually skip this part, but I thought it'd be actually helpful for you to spend a little bit of time to give us a little bit of background on your experience in the space of performance marketing, AKA paid growth, AKA paid ads.

通常我实际上会跳过这一部分，但我认为您花一点时间向我们介绍一下您在效果营销（又名付费增长，又名付费广告）领域的经验背景实际上会对您有所帮助。

You tell us what the right term is for this genre.

您告诉我们该类型的正确术语是什么。

But yeah, just tell us what you've been up to in this area over the past decade and a half, I think.

但是，是的，我想，请告诉我们您在过去十五年里在这个领域所做的事情。

Jonathan Becker: Sure.

乔纳森·贝克尔：当然。

No, that's a great way to kick things off.

不，这是一个开始的好方法。

And again, thank you for having me here.

再次感谢您邀请我来到这里。

If I think about it, my experience goes back about 15 years into this space.

仔细想想，我的经历可以追溯到大约 15 年前进入这个领域。

I started off as a web developer.

我一开始是一名网络开发人员。

And as I built and structured websites for people, I became pretty obsessed and fascinated with the fact that you could build landing pages or homepages, or whatever it was.

当我为人们构建和构建网站时，我对可以构建登陆页面或主页或其他任何内容这一事实变得非常着迷和着迷。

Basically the content on a website, and structure it in a manner where you had the chance to surface in organic, so SEO results more prominently.

基本上是网站上的内容，并以有机的方式构建它，因此搜索引擎优化结果更加突出。

And as I became a practitioner of SEO, SEO really being my first love of marketing, I started attracting attention and people wanted to hire me on as a freelancer.

当我成为 SEO 的实践者时，SEO 真的是我对营销的初恋，我开始引起注意，人们想雇用我作为自由职业者。

And what I noticed is that as people started asking me questions like, what was the ROI of our SEO campaign?

我注意到，当人们开始问我这样的问题时，我们的 SEO 活动的投资回报率是多少？

Or, how do I scale this, or whatnot?

或者，我该如何扩展这个，或者诸如此类的？

The answers to their questions ended up being a lot more aligned with what then was the biggest driver in the paid acquisition world, which was paid search.

他们的问题的答案最终与当时付费收购领域最大的驱动力——付费搜索——更加一致。

Jonathan Becker: And so I started experimenting with paid search.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以我开始尝试付费搜索。

And what I found was that it was a tangible format and lever through which we could basically give people the types of results they were expecting from SEO, but that were obfuscated in terms of Google's analysis algorithm from an organic point of view being somewhat intangible.

我发现这是一种有形的格式和杠杆，通过它我们基本上可以为人们提供他们期望从 SEO 中获得的结果类型，但从有机的角度来看，谷歌的分析算法在某种程度上是无形的，这被混淆了。

And Google slowly removing a lot of the data early on that allowed you to guess and test more easily.

谷歌早期慢慢地删除了大量数据，让你可以更轻松地猜测和测试。

10 plus years later, what started off as this freelancer consultancy that I started running in a walk-in closet in my old apartment, became 130 people.

十多年后，我在旧公寓的步入式衣柜里开始经营这家自由职业咨询公司，员工规模已增至 130 人。

And we manage about $500 million a year in ad spend for small and large companies, including Uber, Asana, Tempur-Pedic.

我们每年为小型和大型公司管理约 5 亿美元的广告支出，其中包括 Uber、Asana、Tempur-Pedic。

We've worked with Lululemon.

我们与 Lululemon 合作过。

Very exciting companies, mostly from the United States, even though we randomly happen to be based in Vancouver, Canada.

非常令人兴奋的公司，大部分来自美国，尽管我们碰巧总部位于加拿大温哥华。

Lenny: There's a number of threads I'm going to pull on there over the course of our chat.

莱尼：在我们的聊天过程中，我将讨论很多话题。

But you mentioned Uber and you told me that you had a crazy story about how you actually landed Uber as a customer.

但你提到了 Uber，并且告诉我你有一个关于如何真正吸引 Uber 成为客户的疯狂故事。

Could you share that?

你能分享一下吗？

Jonathan Becker: I had been running Thrive for a couple years, and it was a very excellent regional agency in Canada with really cool local clients.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我已经经营 Thrive 几年了，它是加拿大一家非常优秀的区域代理机构，拥有非常酷的当地客户。

In 2013, I got invited to go down to the TED conference, which was in Long Beach, California.

2013 年，我受邀参加在加州长滩举行的 TED 会议。

And my friend Andrew Wilkinson asked me to join him at a dinner that night.

我的朋友安德鲁·威尔金森邀请我参加那天晚上的晚宴。

I didn't know anybody from the TED community at the time.

当时我不认识 TED 社区的任何人。

So we have dinner, and then afterwards as it goes at conferences, there's an after party.

所以我们吃晚饭，然后像会议上那样，有一个余兴派对。

And so essentially I hop into a taxi, everybody else sped off in their cars, or however which way they were getting there.

所以基本上我跳上了一辆出租车，其他人都开着他们的车飞驰而去，或者不管他们是通过什么方式到达那里的。

And as we're talking to the driver saying, "Hey, we're going to this place, can you take us?" There's a knock on the window and the person outside says, "Hey, I think I'm heading to the same destination.

当我们与司机交谈时说：“嘿，我们要去这个地方，你能带我们去吗？”有人敲窗，外面的人说：“嘿，我想我要去同一个目的地。

Do you mind if I hop in this car with you?"

你介意我和你一起坐这辆车吗？”

Jonathan Becker: And so we're like, of course.

乔纳森·贝克尔：当然，我们就是这样。

And I turn to him and I'm like, "I'm Jonathan.

我转向他，我说：“我是乔纳森。

I run a 10 person agency out of Vancouver." And he says, "Hey, I'm Garrett Camp.

我在温哥华经营一家 10 人的机构。”他说：“嘿，我是加勒特·坎普。

I started a company called Uber." And so ironically, I meet the founder of Uber, the company that is in the process of disrupting the entire taxi industry worldwide in the back of a taxi cab.

我创办了一家名为 Uber 的公司。”具有讽刺意味的是，我在出租车后面遇到了 Uber 的创始人，这家公司正在颠覆全球整个出租车行业。

And what happened next basically changed my career forever.

接下来发生的事情基本上永远改变了我的职业生涯。

We end up at this party.

我们最终参加了这个聚会。

At the time I was spamming Uber's referral program.

当时我正在向 Uber 的推荐计划发送垃圾邮件。

Kind of a long story, but essentially I was using paid search to camp out on their branded keywords.

故事有点长，但本质上我是在使用付费搜索来扎营他们的品牌关键词。

And as people would sign up with my confusingly similar snippet to Uber's organic snippet, I was essentially siphoning off referral credits.

当人们使用我的与 Uber 有机片段极其相似的片段进行注册时，我实际上是在吸走推荐积分。

So I would get $20 every single time someone signed up.

所以每次有人注册我都会得到 20 美元。

Jonathan Becker: And I ended up making tens of thousands of dollars doing this.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我最终通过这个赚了数万美元。

And so fast-forward, I'm getting a drink at the bar next to Garrett, and in my head I'm like, should I tell him about this?

时间快进，我在加勒特旁边的酒吧喝了一杯，心里想，我应该告诉他这件事吗？

Maybe I can land them as a client.

也许我可以让他们成为我的客户。

This would be really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

And essentially I tell him, I'm like, "Hey, I'm doing this.

基本上我告诉他，我就像，“嘿，我正在做这个。

I'm adding zero value, but this is a loophole in your marketing system, and someone should close it." He essentially is like, "I need to report this to the board, but here's my card, write me what you're doing and we'll contact you." And so I get contacted by a bunch of his lieutenants.

我增加了零价值，但这是你的营销系统中的一个漏洞，应该有人堵住它。”他本质上是这样的，“我需要向董事会报告此事，但这是我的名片，写下你在做什么，我们会联系你。”所以他的一群副手联系了我。

If you've read the book, Super Pumped.

如果你读过《Super Pumped》这本书。

All the people that we dealt with at the time are in the book, and -

我们当时接触过的所有人都在书中，而且——

Jonathan Becker: Yeah, exactly.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的，完全正确。

And they were like, "Hey, this is bad, you have to stop doing this.

他们就像，“嘿，这很糟糕，你必须停止这样做。

But can we hire you to solve the problem?" And so what started off as me running projects for local bars in Vancouver, or clothing stores, or whatever it was.

但我们可以雇用你来解决这个问题吗？”因此，我开始为温哥华当地的酒吧、服装店或其他什么项目开展项目。

Turned into me landing early stage Uber as a client, and really graduating us from competent professionals to leaders in our sector.

让我成为早期阶段 Uber 的客户，真正让我们从称职的专业人士成长为行业的领导者。

And so it was a fascinating project, and we worked with Uber for 10 years.

所以这是一个令人着迷的项目，我们与 Uber 合作了 10 年。

Lenny: That is an incredible story.

莱尼：那是一个令人难以置信的故事。

I love the arbitrage game you're running there.

我喜欢你们在那里进行的套利游戏。

It's basically siphoning VC money out of Uber.

它基本上是从 Uber 那里吸走风险投资的资金。

And I guess the lesson there a little bit is just sometimes it's this interesting combination of hustle in terms of just make some money, and also taking advantage of this opportunity you were plopped into.

我想从中得到的教训是，有时，这种有趣的组合就是为了赚钱，同时也利用你偶然发现的这个机会。

Jonathan Becker: Yeah.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的。

I think people often talk about entrepreneurs who have been successful and they comment that they're lucky.

我认为人们经常谈论成功的企业家，并评论说他们很幸运。

Whereas, I actually look at that situation and I think that you have to make your own luck.

然而，我实际上看到了这种情况，我认为你必须自己创造运气。

I could have been like, oh, cool, I met this guy in the back of a taxi and that was it.

我本可以说，哦，太酷了，我在出租车后座遇到了这个人，就是这样。

But I decided to take a risk, being that I could get embarrassed or nothing could happen, or they could shut down this referral gimmicky thing that I was doing.

但我决定冒险，因为我可能会感到尴尬，或者什么也不会发生，或者他们可能会关闭我正在做的这种推荐花招。

I had very little to lose, I guess, ultimately.

我想，最终我没什么可失去的。

But a lot of people just don't make these moves in life because they're nervous, or they're worried too much about what the downside might be.

但很多人在生活中并没有采取这些行动，因为他们很紧张，或者他们太担心可能带来的负面影响。

And so I very much was like, I'm going to shoot my shot here.

所以我非常想，我要在这里拍摄。

And you put yourself in situations where everybody has luck, but you have to capitalize on it basically.

你把自己置于每个人都有运气的境地，但你必须基本上利用它。

And so that was an example of being willing to take a risk, and it paying off pretty big time I think.

所以这是一个愿意冒险的例子，我认为它得到了相当大的回报。

Lenny: Also, being at Ted, that seems like a good move.

莱尼：而且，在泰德，这似乎是一个不错的举动。

Networking, paying off.

网络，收获。

Love that he was in a taxi, that's hilarious.

喜欢他在出租车里，这太搞笑了。

I was going to ask you about that.

我正想问你这个问题。

And clearly, he's doing some research .

显然，他正在做一些研究。

Lenny: Let's start diving into the world of paid growth.

莱尼：让我们开始深入探讨付费增长的世界。

And if you think about just paid growth..

如果你只考虑付费增长..

And again, actually, what do you refer to this area as?

再说一遍，实际上，您将这个区域称为什么？

Paid growth, performance marketing, paid ads?

付费增长、效果营销、付费广告？

Jonathan Becker: There's a lot of interchangeable terms.

乔纳森·贝克尔：有很多可以互换的术语。

Performance marketing is a common term.

绩效营销是一个常用术语。

Paid acquisition is a common term.

付费获取是一个常见术语。

Some people think of those two things as growth marketing, whereas I see growth marketing as a bigger practice area within which paid acquisition sits.

有些人将这两件事视为增长营销，而我将增长营销视为付费获取的更大实践领域。

And then of course there's subsets, there's social ads, there's paid search, there's programmatic.

当然还有子集，有社交广告，有付费搜索，有程序化。

And so there's a lot of different ways of saying the same thing.

因此，同一件事有很多不同的表达方式。

Lenny: I'm going to use performance marketing.

莱尼：我将采用效果营销。

I like that term because it really describes what it is.

我喜欢这个词，因为它真正描述了它是什么。

It's like marketing with you can measure performance.

这就像营销可以衡量绩效一样。

Let's see how that goes.

让我们看看情况如何。

As a channel, it's such an interesting mix of, on the one hand it's this incredible growth lever that allows basically any company to spend money and understand the ROI and acquiring the users.

作为一个渠道，它是一个非常有趣的组合，一方面，它是一个令人难以置信的增长杠杆，基本上允许任何公司花钱并了解投资回报率并获取用户。

This thing that never existed before.

这个东西以前从来没有存在过。

Essentially Facebook and Google created these platforms.

本质上 Facebook 和 Google 创建了这些平台。

On the other hand, there's this sense that it's this drug that you start and then you get hooked on and you can never leave.

另一方面，有一种感觉，就是你开始使用这种药物，然后你就上瘾了，永远无法离开。

And there's a lot of advice of just, avoid paid growth.

有很多建议只是避免带薪增长。

That's just not a good healthy way of growing, especially as a startup.

这并不是一种良好健康的成长方式，尤其是对于一家初创公司而言。

And so my question to you is just, how do you think about that element of it?

所以我问你的问题是，你如何看待其中的这个要素？

And then even more specifically, what products do you find paid growth as a channel is right for and not right for?

更具体地说，您认为付费增长渠道适合什么产品，不适合什么产品？

Jonathan Becker: Yeah, it's a really great question.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

And so, I think there's a couple different things that need to be unpacked here.

因此，我认为这里需要解析一些不同的东西。

Paid acquisition or performance marketing-

付费获取或绩效营销-

Jonathan Becker: ...

乔纳森·贝克尔：……

you can call it, can be seen as a drug, I suppose, when you are entirely reliant on it to fuel the revenue of your business.

我想，当你完全依赖它来增加你的业务收入时，你可以称之为药物，可以将其视为一种药物。

The analogy that I try and use here is that it would be very dangerous if I was advising you with your life savings and I told you to put it all in a single stock in the stock market.

我在这里尝试使用的类比是，如果我为您提供毕生积蓄的建议，并告诉您将其全部投入股市中的一只股票，那将是非常危险的。

Stocks can be volatile.

股票可能会波动。

And as a result of that, your net worth would fluctuate quite a bit in the short-term and the long-term based on a lot of things that you don't control, like the external markets, or things that are happening within the performance of that particular company that you invested in.

因此，你的净资产会在短期和长期内出现相当大的波动，这取决于许多你无法控制的因素，比如外部市场，或者你投资的特定公司的业绩中发生的事情。

When I think about all of the marketing mix, so email, direct mail, linear television, performance, marketing, whatever it is, I think about it as investing capital with the expectation of a return.

当我想到所有的营销组合时，例如电子邮件、直邮、线性电视、表演、营销，无论是什么，我认为它是投资资本并期望获得回报。

And in the same manner that I would not take all of your life savings and dump it into a single stock, I don't recommend putting all of your money into a single performance marketing channel, and then somewhat exposing you to the volatility of fluctuating CPCs or changing market conditions.

就像我不会把你一生的积蓄都投入到一只股票中一样，我也不建议你把所有的钱都投入到单一的绩效营销渠道中，然后让你在一定程度上暴露在每次点击费用波动或市场条件变化的影响之下。

I would agree with you that it is a drug, in a sense, if you have all of your eggs in one basket, and that basket takes you on a very intense rollercoaster in terms of performance.

我同意你的观点，从某种意义上说，如果你把所有的鸡蛋都放在一个篮子里，而这个篮子会让你在表现方面经历一次非常激烈的过山车，那么从某种意义上说，它是一种药物。

But when I think about the fact that Thrive manages $500 million a year, I think of myself to a extent as a fund manager, we are managing people's money with the expectation of a return.

但当我想到 Thrive 每年管理 5 亿美元的事实时，我在某种程度上认为自己是一名基金经理，我们管理人们的资金并期望获得回报。

And part of the strategy is to diversify across channels.

该战略的一部分是跨渠道多元化。

And so we decrease the reliance of any individual project on a singular channel and its performance.

因此，我们减少了任何单个项目对单一渠道及其性能的依赖。

Jonathan Becker: And similarly, I always say to people that the first rule of performance marketing is not to forget about offline marketing and the classic marketing that works for organizations.

乔纳森·贝克尔：同样，我总是对人们说，效果营销的首要规则是不要忘记线下营销和适用于组织的经典营销。

In other words, direct mail can really work, email marketing works beautifully, SEO can really work.

换句话说，直邮确实有效，电子邮件营销非常有效，SEO 也确实有效。

There's all of these wonderful things at your disposal.

所有这些美妙的东西都可供您使用。

The real crash and burn scenarios that I've seen are these, not fly by night brands, but brands that figured out...

我见过的真正的崩溃和烧毁场景是这些，不是夜间飞行的品牌，而是那些想出办法的品牌......

Just like with Uber, I figured out this weird tie-in where I could make free money from their referral system.

就像优步一样，我发现了这个奇怪的搭配，我可以从他们的推荐系统中免费赚钱。

Sometimes people find shortcuts, hacks if you will, to scale rapidly because of one specific nuance of the Facebook ad platform, or something like that.

有时，由于 Facebook 广告平台的一个特定细微差别或类似的原因，人们会找到捷径（如果你愿意的话）来快速扩展。

And what they fail to see is that those loopholes come and go.

他们没有看到的是，这些漏洞来了又去。

Jonathan Becker: And so if they scale massively and their entire business is predicated on the performance of this one loophole that they found, or investing everything in a single channel, and then the conditions change, they're not going to be very happy and the business will suffer dramatically.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此，如果他们大规模扩张，他们的整个业务都取决于他们发现的这一漏洞的表现，或者将所有东西都投资在单一渠道上，然后情况发生变化，他们不会很高兴，业务将遭受巨大损失。

And so when I think about this, it's a responsible channel mix, diversity, and understanding that you can't be overly reliant on performance marketing for the success or failure of your business.

因此，当我想到这一点时，这是一个负责任的渠道组合、多样性，以及理解你不能过度依赖绩效营销来决定你的业务的成功或失败。

Lenny: What about the second part of that question of when you think about when companies come to you.

莱尼：当你考虑公司何时来找你时，这个问题的第二部分怎么样？

What do you look for to help you understand this is going to be a really good fit for performance marketing and this is going to give them a lot of opportunity to growth, versus maybe not, maybe it'll be a small sliver but it's not going to be a massive success for them?

您寻找什么来帮助您了解这将非常适合绩效营销，这将为他们提供很多成长机会，而不是，也许这只是一小部分，但对他们来说不会取得巨大的成功？

Jonathan Becker: Yeah.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的。

I would say that the answer to that question is different at different stages of a company's life cycle.

我想说，这个问题的答案在公司生命周期的不同阶段是不同的。

Early stage, look at what the company is doing, look at your own company.

前期，看看公司在做什么，看看自己的公司。

Have you established product market fit?

您是否已确定产品市场契合度？

Is this an idea that has yet to be tested, and are they entirely looking to performance marketing to scale everything?

这是一个尚未经过测试的想法吗？他们是否完全希望通过效果营销来扩大一切？

Are they at risk of it becoming an over-reliance on performance marketing?

他们是否面临过度依赖效果营销的风险？

At a later stage we look at certain criteria that they might or might not possess.

在稍后阶段，我们会研究他们可能具备或不具备的某些标准。

Typically, that will come down to resourcing.

通常，这将归结为资源配置。

Jonathan Becker: The question at a later stage is not, does it work?

乔纳森·贝克尔：后期的问题不是，它有效吗？

But, to what scale can it work?

但是，它能发挥到什么规模呢？

And so we are looking at things like, do they have adequate creative resources and buy-in?

因此，我们正在关注诸如他们是否拥有足够的创意资源和支持等问题？

Does creative resourcing tie into performance, and can we create a feedback loop there around testing?

创意资源是否与绩效挂钩？我们能否围绕测试创建反馈循环？

I'll talk to you about that in a bit.

我稍后会和你谈谈这个问题。

Do they have professional marketers on staff?

他们有专业的营销人员吗？

Are there people who have experience doing what we do, that speak our language so to speak?

是否有人有我们所做的事情的经验，可以说，他们会说我们的语言？

Or is part of this an organizational educational, and creating buy-in through stakeholders process that needs to take place?

或者这是组织教育的一部分，并通过需要进行的利益相关者过程来建立支持？

Do they have technical resources?

他们有技术资源吗？

If we say, "Hey, tracking and attribution is broken, here's how to solve that." Can you implement it?

如果我们说，“嘿，跟踪和归因被破坏了，这里是解决这个问题的方法。”你能实施吗？

And so on and so forth.

等等。

Jonathan Becker: There's no one magic formula for what works or what type of company will be successful on performance marketing channels.

乔纳森·贝克尔：没有一个神奇的公式可以说明什么是有效的，什么类型的公司会在绩效营销渠道上取得成功。

Just as evidence of this, Google, which I think had a down quarter reported sales this week, and it was $70 billion in three months.

作为这一点的证据，谷歌本周公布了销售额，我认为该公司季度销售额有所下降，三个月内销售额达到 700 亿美元。

And Facebook similarly just recorded yesterday evening, and it was $32 billion.

Facebook 昨天晚上也同样创下了 320 亿美元的记录。

That's $100 billion on just Google and Facebook in three months, and the majority of that revenue is from ads.

三个月内仅 Google 和 Facebook 的收入就达到 1000 亿美元，其中大部分收入来自广告。

This works really well for lots of different companies, it's just a question of at what scale.

这对于许多不同的公司来说都非常有效，只是规模大小的问题。

Lenny: Just to pull an thread a little bit more.

莱尼：只是想多拉扯一点。

Something I've heard from other guests is that paid ads are best for products where you get basically payback really quickly, basically to feed the flywheel of spend so that you're not sitting around waiting for someone to buy something in the future, or it's a small trickle of pay.

我从其他客人那里听到的消息是，付费广告最适合那些你基本上很快就能获得回报的产品，基本上是为了满足支出的飞轮，这样你就不会坐在那里等待有人在未来买东西，或者这是一小笔报酬。

How important is that, I guess?

我想这有多重要？

Do you find that you could just do paid growth for any company, it doesn't matter their business model?

您是否发现您可以为任何公司提供有偿增长，而与他们的商业模式无关？

Or is there something you're like, okay, this needs to exist for you to invest serious resources?

或者你是否有这样的想法，好吧，这需要存在才能让你投入大量资源？

And even hire that team that you just talked about.

甚至雇佣你刚才谈到的那个团队。

Jonathan Becker: It's always nice when there's a quick turnaround on investment and return.

乔纳森·贝克尔：投资和回报快速周转总是好的。

And that's wonderful for like D2C or e-commerce style businesses where they're essentially taking the revenue to fuel additional inventory and operating costs.

这对于 D2C 或电子商务类型的企业来说非常好，因为它们本质上是利用收入来增加库存和运营成本。

However, not all businesses work that way.

然而，并非所有企业都是这样运作的。

And so, in a B2C or B2B lead generation scenario, we have to undertake pretty sophisticated modeling around these abstract concepts, like lifetime value.

因此，在 B2C 或 B2B 潜在客户开发场景中，我们必须围绕这些抽象概念（例如终身价值）进行相当复杂的建模。

Which is difficult, because most businesses are relatively new that we work with, and so the idea of lifetime value is a misnomer.

这很困难，因为我们合作的大多数企业都相对较新，因此终身价值的概念是一个误称。

They don't know what that is yet.

他们还不知道那是什么。

Jonathan Becker: But we have to model things like LTV to CAC, so cost per acquisition costs versus lifetime value and the period within which the payback occurs.

Jonathan Becker：但是我们必须对 LTV 到 CAC 等模型进行建模，因此每次获取成本与生命周期价值以及投资回收期之间的关系。

You end up getting to a pretty sophisticated place where you can build out things like a lead scoring model, which predictively can determine in a statistically significant way the likelihood that one lead will convert to revenue over another.

您最终会到达一个非常复杂的地方，您可以在其中构建诸如潜在客户评分模型之类的东西，该模型可以预测性地以统​​计上显着的方式确定一个潜在客户相对于另一个潜在客户转化为收入的可能性。

And so there are ways around the slower payback period that still end up being pretty accurate based on what you're bidding on today versus the latent revenue that will be accrued to those campaigns through attribution.

因此，有一些方法可以绕开较慢的投资回收期，但根据您今天的出价与通过归因向这些广告系列累积的潜在收入相比，这些方法最终仍然相当准确。

Lenny: Do you have any just rules of thumb for someone listening and trying to decide, is paid a real model for us, either on LTV or CAC, or payback period?

Lenny：对于那些倾听并试图决定是否为我们支付真实模型的人，您是否有任何公正的经验法则，无论是 LTV 还是 CAC，还是投资回收期？

Or something just like, here's what you probably should have, especially early stage for you to feel like paid growth is going to be a great lever for you to use, and maybe a primary lever.

或者类似的东西，这就是你可能应该拥有的，特别是在早期阶段，让你觉得付费增长将是你可以使用的一个很好的杠杆，也许是一个主要的杠杆。

Jonathan Becker: Product market fit.

乔纳森·贝克尔：产品市场契合度。

If you know that your business sells into audiences.

如果您知道您的业务畅销受众。

Let's say you are a social media influencer or you had a really strong email marketing game, or organically your content surfaces within Google search results.

假设您是一位社交媒体影响者，或者您有一个非常强大的电子邮件营销游戏，或者您的内容有机地出现在 Google 搜索结果中。

Or, you did a lot of direct mail and linear television and billboard advertising and that worked.

或者，您做了很多直邮、线性电视和广告牌广告，而且效果很好。

If other things work, it is highly likely that paid acquisition will work.

如果其他事情奏效，那么付费收购很可能会奏效。

The issue for most companies is in this incorrect assumption that the data that is provided through paid channels allows you to have full end-to-end understanding of attribution.

大多数公司的问题在于这种错误的假设，即通过付费渠道提供的数据可以让您对归因有完整的端到端理解。

Which is wrong, it's never been that way.

这是错误的，从来没有这样过。

And the other aspect of this is the patience to understand that every business is unique, and these metrics that we know are important are different for every business.

另一方面是耐心地理解每个企业都是独一无二的，并且我们知道的这些重要指标对于每个企业来说都是不同的。

Lifetime value, like propensity to repurchase, ROAS, which is return on amount spent, CPA, CAC, all of these different things are different for every business.

终生价值，如回购倾向、ROAS（即支出回报率）、CPA、CAC，所有这些不同的东西对于每个企业来说都是不同的。

Jonathan Becker: Even if I worked with two hotels in the same city, they would have different results based on the nuances of their budget, their brand, the market that they sit within, the services that they offer, and so on and so forth.

乔纳森·贝克尔：即使我与同一城市的两家酒店合作，根据预算、品牌、所在市场、提供的服务等的细微差别，他们也会得到不同的结果。

I think that everything else, the main problem here is that nobody should expect an overnight turnaround with performance marketing.

我认为，除此之外，这里的主要问题是，没有人应该指望效果营销能在一夜之间扭转局面。

It is a very difficult channel to manage, and that's why people hire experts like us to help them with it because it's a never ending problem with constantly changing issues.

这是一个非常难以管理的渠道，这就是为什么人们聘请像我们这样的专家来帮助他们，因为这是一个永无止境的问题，而且问题不断变化。

It's always been like that, that's not a new thing since pandemic, or whatever.

一直都是这样，自大流行以来这并不是什么新鲜事。

And it will take some time to work out what works.

找出有效的方法还需要一些时间。

Lenny: I have this framework of there's these four growth channels, basically growth engines is what I call them.

莱尼：我有一个框架，有这四个增长渠道，基本上我称之为增长引擎。

There's paid/performance marketing.

有付费/绩效营销。

There's SEO, there's virality in their sales.

有搜索引擎优化，有病毒式销售。

And essentially there's some companies whose growth is almost primarily paid.

本质上，有些公司的增长几乎主要是靠付费实现的。

A few that come to mind are booking.com, which we know well at Airbnb, which is almost all paid growth driven.

我想到的一些网站是 booking.com，我们在爱彼迎 (Airbnb) 非常了解该网站，该网站几乎都是付费增长驱动的。

Credit Karma comes to mind as a classic paid performance marketing.

Credit Karma 是一种经典的付费绩效营销。

I keep coming to paid growth as my term, so I'm just going to stick with that.

我一直把带薪增长作为我的术语，所以我会坚持下去。

TikTok initially was very performance marketing, paid growth oriented.

TikTok 最初非常注重效果营销，以付费增长为导向。

Wish was another one I think about.

愿望是我想到的另一个愿望。

Lenny: And I want to talk about how much things are changing within this realm.

莱尼：我想谈谈这个领域内发生了多大的变化。

But before we get there, do you think there's still an opportunity for startups to emerge where they get to scale almost exclusively through performance marketing?

但在我们到达那里之前，您认为初创公司仍然有机会出现，几乎完全通过绩效营销来扩大规模吗？

And this question actually came from Twitter, someone tweeted this randomly the other day.

这个问题实际上来自推特，前几天有人随机发推文。

And I was like, oh, that's a great question for Jonathan.

我当时想，哦，这对乔纳森来说是一个很好的问题。

And by the way, her name is Liz.

顺便说一下，她的名字叫莉兹。

Lenny: And I was like, oh, that's a great question for Jonathan, and by the way, her name is Liz Georgie asked this question, so there you go.

莱尼：我当时想，哦，这对乔纳森来说是一个很好的问题，顺便说一句，她的名字叫莉兹·乔治，问了这个问题，所以你就说吧。

Jonathan Becker: I'll put it this way.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我会这样说。

Every unicorn from the 2010s era that scale did performance marketing, but not everyone during that time who did performance marketing scaled.

2010年代的每一个规模化的独角兽都进行了绩效营销，但并不是那个时期所有进行绩效营销的独角兽都进行了规模化。

So I want to remove the bias here that just because all the successful organizations did this didn't mean that it was a magical channel for everyone.

所以我想消除这里的偏见，即仅仅因为所有成功的组织都这样做并不意味着它对每个人来说都是一个神奇的渠道。

We had plenty of projects that we worked on that flatlined during that period.

在那段时期，我们有很多项目都处于停滞状态。

And so the sense that there was a period of time where this was easy or it worked on any project is not correct in my opinion.

因此，在我看来，曾经有一段时间这很容易或者对任何项目都有效的感觉是不正确的。

With that said, we see companies that are spending millions of dollars a month on performance marketing channels like Google and Meta still, despite all the ups and downs that they have faced and they do so profitably.

话虽如此，我们看到公司仍然每月在 Google 和 Meta 等绩效营销渠道上花费数百万美元，尽管他们面临着各种起起落落，而且他们这样做是有利可图的。

Jonathan Becker: And I think there's some really great examples of companies that have scaled in relatively recent times, almost exclusively through paid.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我认为有一些非常好的公司在最近时期几乎完全通过付费实现规模扩张的例子。

Grammarly is a really good example of this.

Grammarly 就是一个很好的例子。

They have been good at solving for this problem that exists around understanding the cost per acquisition versus lifetime value, how sticky customers are, predicting how much revenue can come from a customer and backing out into therefore how much we can pay per click and per lead and so on and so forth.

他们擅长解决这个问题，该问题围绕着理解每次获取成本与生命周期价值、客户粘性如何、预测客户可以带来多少收入以及我们可以为每次点击和每次潜在客户支付多少费用等问题而存在。

Athletic Greens is another good example.

运动果岭是另一个很好的例子。

So Athletic Greens is actually a pretty old company.

所以 Athletic Greens 实际上是一家相当老的公司。

I think they've been around for 10 years.

我想他们已经存在10年了。

I think they have retail distribution.

我认为他们有零售分销。

I think they have done a lot of the more classic marketing things that are important in terms of developing that channel mix.

我认为他们做了很多更经典的营销工作，这些工作对于开发渠道组合非常重要。

But I think the amplification of that brand really, really gained traction quite recently where now everybody knows what Athletic Greens is, and that's because they're buying loads of ads on TikTok.

但我认为这个品牌的扩张最近确实非常引人注目，现在每个人都知道 Athletic Greens 是什么，那是因为他们在 TikTok 上购买了大量广告。

They're buying loads of ads on other social channels like Facebook.

他们在 Facebook 等其他社交渠道上购买了大量广告。

They're investing in podcasting partnerships.

他们正在投资播客合作伙伴关系。

But this is all digital paid acquisition.

但这都是数字付费获取。

Jonathan Becker: And so it had a wonderful effect on this really interesting business that they had already built.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这对他们已经建立的这个非常有趣的业务产生了奇妙的影响。

So yes, it's still doable.

所以是的，它仍然是可行的。

We still see people doing it, and I think that there's been a bit of a reckoning in the performance marketing industry pertaining to things like privacy and the changes that Apple made and people being very creeped out at how their data is being used rightfully so.

我们仍然看到人们这样做，我认为效果营销行业对隐私和苹果所做的改变等问题进行了一些反思，人们对他们的数据如何被正确使用感到非常害怕。

And then obviously the economy in 2022, we had a terrible macroeconomic shift where interest rates rise and inflation's out of control.

显然，2022 年的经济，我们经历了可怕的宏观经济转变，利率上升，通货膨胀失控。

And so of course the first thing that people cut are typically marketing budgets and we see Facebook and Google and other ad channels directly suffering from that.

当然，人们首先削减的通常是营销预算，我们看到 Facebook 和 Google 以及其他广告渠道直接受到了影响。

So all of that said, these storms pass.

综上所述，这些风暴都会过去。

And so when the economy improves, generally speaking, I imagine people will go back to trying to find as much inventory from a pay per click point of view that they can purchase as possible and figuring out the economics of how to do that.

因此，一般来说，当经济好转时，我想人们会重新尝试从每次点击付费的角度寻找尽可能多的库存，以便他们可以购买，并弄清楚如何做到这一点的经济效益。

Lenny: I was definitely going to ask about that, and I love that you touched on it, just clearly a lot is changing in paid growth/performance marketing recently.

莱尼：我肯定会问这个问题，我很喜欢你提到这个问题，很明显，最近付费增长/绩效营销正在发生很多变化。

You talked about the privacy stuff, you talked about COVID kind of shifted the way people spend and kind of dropped and then came back.

你谈到了隐私问题，你谈到了新冠疫情改变了人们的消费方式，然后又有所下降，然后又回来了。

So my question is who are you finding has the most success these days in performance marketing?

所以我的问题是，您认为目前谁在效果营销方面最成功？

And I will plant one seed, which from the examples you just shared, it feels like it's mostly companies that are very efficient.

我会种下一颗种子，从你刚才分享的例子来看，感觉大部分都是非常高效的公司。

I think Grammarly, they're just super efficient as a business.

我认为语法上，他们作为一个企业非常高效。

And then I think Analytic Greens, they're a sponsor and their negotiations for sponsoring is just like, okay, here's the number that makes sense for them financially, and they're not going to go anywhere above that.

然后我认为分析绿党，他们是赞助商，他们的赞助谈判就像，好吧，这是对他们在财务上有意义的数字，他们不会超出这个数字。

Jonathan Becker: Yeah.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的。

Because they know, they understand how many impressions they'll get and on average what the quality of impression is and how many dollars they can put behind that before it has a cliff in terms of ROI.

因为他们知道，他们了解自己会获得多少印象，平均印象质量如何，以及在投资回报率出现悬崖之前他们可以投入多少美元。

Lenny: Exactly.

莱尼：没错。

So broadly, who do you think is having the most success now with the changes and then generally, what should people know about what has changed in the past say year in the space of performance marketing?

总的来说，您认为现在谁在这些变化中取得了最大的成功，然后一般来说，人们应该了解过去一年中绩效营销领域发生的变化？

Jonathan Becker: I'm not going to really be able to point to this company is really getting it right and I think that you can do that, but it's like saying, a friend of mine who recently on Twitter tweeted this funny thing where he was like, this is the number that I used to win the lottery said every successful founder ever trying to give advice to other founders.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我无法真正指出这家公司真的做得对，我认为你可以做到这一点，但这就像说，我的一个朋友最近在推特上发布了这个有趣的事情，他说，这是我用来赢得彩票的数字，每个成功的创始人都试图向其他创始人提供建议。

And so in other words, just because they won the lottery doesn't mean you're going to be successful picking the same number.

换句话说，仅仅因为他们中了彩票并不意味着你会成功地选择相同的号码。

Jonathan Becker: To that extent, there is a bit of a playbook around modern day performance marketing, and that includes everything from really stringent and rigorous creative testing and thinking about that correctly to understanding the subjectivity of attribution and its strengths and weaknesses, doing a lot of work around validity of these campaigns.

乔纳森·贝克尔：从这个意义上说，现代绩效营销有一些剧本，其中包括从真正严格的创意测试和正确思考到理解归因的主观性及其优点和缺点，围绕这些营销活动的有效性做大量工作。

So really just the measurement and whatnot.

所以实际上只是测量等等。

Companies that can do those things and then understand their own marketing economics, in other words, quite basically how much can we afford to spend in acquiring a customer on any channel before that acquisition is no longer profitable.

能够做到这些事情，然后了解自己的营销经济学的公司，换句话说，基本上，我们可以花多少钱来在任何渠道上获取客户，然后该获取不再有利可图。

So really focusing on the profitability of the bottom line and not just break net growth, for instance.

因此，真正关注的是利润的盈利能力，而不仅仅是突破净增长。

Companies that have those capabilities and see the world that way tend to be successful in performance marketing.

拥有这些能力并以这种方式看待世界的公司往往会在效果营销方面取得成功。

Lenny: When you were giving your intro, you talked about how you initially started doing SEO, that's where you started, and then you moved to paid growth.

Lenny：当您进行介绍时，您谈到了您最初是如何开始做 SEO 的，这就是您开始的地方，然后您转向付费增长。

Well, how do you think about those two investments as a founder trying to decide which direction to go?

那么，作为试图决定走向哪个方向的创始人，您如何看待这两项投资？

What would your advice be of spend your time here versus there if X, Y, Z?

如果 X、Y、Z，您对在这里花时间还是在那里花时间有什么建议？

Jonathan Becker: When I'm asked a question of should we put money into organic search or paid search?

乔纳森·贝克尔：当我被问到我们应该把钱投入自然搜索还是付费搜索时？

My response is often that they're actually not mutually exclusive to one another.

我的回答通常是，它们实际上并不相互排斥。

So it's a great idea to do both, and that backs into my strategy of diversification of channels.

因此，两者兼而有之是个好主意，这也符合我的渠道多元化战略。

So don't build up exclusively in one area and create volatility within your marketing mix essentially.

因此，不要只专注于某一领域，从而在营销组合中造成波动。

SEO is a wonderful marketing capability when it's built out correctly.

如果正确构建，搜索引擎优化是一种出色的营销能力。

I think the issues that you run into are cause and effect related.

我认为您遇到的问题是有因果关系的。

So one of the things that people really like about performance marketing theoretically is that we can spend a certain amount and then if we're modeling things correctly, we can essentially determine how much revenue is generated from the actions that we took.

因此，从理论上讲，人们真正喜欢效果营销的一件事是，我们可以花费一定的金额，然后如果我们正确地建模，我们基本上可以确定我们采取的行动产生了多少收入。

Finance teams love that, C-suite teams love that, they can build projections, they can budget around it.

财务团队喜欢这一点，高管团队也喜欢这一点，他们可以制定预测，可以围绕它制定预算。

There's some degree of predictability around it if it's done properly.

如果做得正确的话，它有一定程度的可预测性。

Jonathan Becker: Search engine optimization is different in that the attribution can be tough.

乔纳森·贝克尔：搜索引擎优化的不同之处在于，归因可能很困难。

It's difficult to determine whether ultimately the actions that you took contributed to a rise in organic traffic.

很难确定您采取的操作最终是否会导致自然流量的增加。

You have to essentially correlate that.

你必须从本质上将其关联起来。

And the reason is because when you build clusters of content and it's grouped thematically and you're targeting buckets of keywords, whether they're long tail or head keywords, whatever it may be, you can publish all of that on your website.

原因是因为当您构建内容集群并按主题分组时，您的目标是关键字桶，无论它们是长尾关键字还是头关键字，无论是什么，您都可以在您的网站上发布所有这些关键字。

Google still has to crawl it.

谷歌仍然需要抓取它。

They run it through their analysis algorithm, which is comprised of 200 different signals, of which maybe 20 to 30 have been publicly disclosed.

他们通过分析算法来运行它，该算法由 200 个不同的信号组成，其中可能有 20 到 30 个已公开披露。

So it's a bit of a black box.

所以它有点像一个黑匣子。

Jonathan Becker: We don't really know ultimately what ROI comes off of that unless you're very sophisticated, like probably one of your other guests, Ethan, in terms of measurement.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：我们并不真正知道最终的投资回报率是多少，除非您在衡量方面非常老练，就像您的另一位客人伊森（Ethan）一样。

Whereas paid, the ROI is still a difficult problem to solve, but there was a lot more of a linear relationship as it relates to attribution.

尽管付费，投资回报率仍然是一个很难解决的问题，但它与归因之间存在更多的线性关系。

And so paid being tangible was the reason why I leaned heavily into paid and ultimately away from SEO.

因此，付费是有形的，这就是我严重依赖付费并最终远离 SEO 的原因。

But I do think that if you do SEO properly, the payoffs are indisputable and it is certainly an important part of a modern media mix.

但我确实认为，如果你正确地进行搜索引擎优化，回报是无可争议的，而且它肯定是现代媒体组合的重要组成部分。

Lenny: You mentioned this earlier, I've heard this more and more recently that one of the biggest levers these days in paid growth is around creatives.

莱尼：你之前提到过这一点，我最近越来越多地听到这样的说法：当今付费增长的最大杠杆之一是创意。

It's not tooling or smarter data, or you tell me if I'm wrong, but it's just getting better creatives.

这不是工具或更智能的数据，或者你告诉我我是否错了，而只是获得更好的创意。

And so I'll let you actually explain, what are creatives?

所以我会让你真正解释一下，什么是创意？

There's a term creatives that people outside the industry don't really necessarily get.

有一个术语“创意”，行业外的人不一定真正理解。

And then broadly, what should people be doing to optimize the way they approach creatives?

然后从广义上讲，人们应该做什么来优化他们处理创意的方式？

Jonathan Becker: Certainly.

乔纳森·贝克尔：当然。

So when we say creative, we're referring to the assets that power typically visual programmatic or pay per click campaigns on social channels or display networks.

因此，当我们说创意时，我们指的是社交渠道或展示网络上通常为视觉程序化或按点击付费活动提供动力的资产。

And so literally the motion graphics ad that you see on Facebook, the user generated content that you see on TikTok or a static ad that you might see that has a pretty picture in it or whatever.

因此，从字面上看，您在 Facebook 上看到的动态图形广告、您在 TikTok 上看到的用户生成的内容，或者您​​可能会看到其中包含漂亮图片或其他内容的静态广告。

And so I think that when we talk about creative as a big lever around efficiency and optimization, the underlying conversation there is that over time our industry has been heavily automated.

因此，我认为，当我们谈论创意作为效率和优化的重要杠杆时，潜在的对话是，随着时间的推移，我们的行业已经高度自动化。

So a lot of the levers so to speak around performance have been automated by Google and Facebook over the last seven to 10 years.

因此，在过去的七到十年里，谷歌和 Facebook 已经实现了很多与绩效相关的杠杆的自动化。

That's because originally when you ran these campaigns, you needed to have a rocket scientist in front of them.

那是因为最初当你开展这些活动时，你需要有一名火箭科学家在他们面前。

It was so complicated and there were so many different things that you could get wrong, and their solution, the channels like the big tech company solution to this is figuring it out for you.

它是如此复杂，有太多不同的事情你可能会出错，而他们的解决方案，像大型科技公司解决方案这样的渠道正在为你解决这个问题。

So eventually Google wants you to say, hey, I'm Google, give me your credit card and I'll take care of everything else.

所以最终谷歌希望你说，嘿，我是谷歌，给我你的信用卡，我会处理其他一切。

Facebook-

脸书-

Lenny: And the URL to point people to, and then we'll do the rest.

Lenny：以及将人们指向的 URL，然后我们将完成其余的工作。

Jonathan Becker: Yeah.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的。

I don't know if that's a great idea for consumers, by the way.

顺便说一句，我不知道这对消费者来说是否是一个好主意。

But in the meantime, there's certain things that have just been fully automated.

但与此同时，有些事情刚刚完全自动化。

In the context of creative, it's still one of these things that for now is not auto-generated in the world of AI and all the changes that we're seeing.

在创意的背景下，它仍然是目前人工智能世界和我们所看到的所有变化中无法自动生成的事物之一。

Maybe that's something that will change.

也许这会改变。

But for now, essentially creative directors and their teams are concepting and producing different types of assets.

但目前，创意总监及其团队基本上正在构思和制作不同类型的资产。

And so there's a bunch of problems that we typically see when people come to us.

因此，当人们来找我们时，我们通常会遇到很多问题。

So number one, performance marketing and brand marketing in a lot of organizations are two different things.

因此，第一，在许多组织中，绩效营销和品牌营销是两件不同的事情。

And the designers that occupy brand teams bandwidth and whatnot often don't have a sense of how paid acquisition works.

占用品牌团队带宽之类的设计师通常不了解付费获取的运作方式。

Jonathan Becker: And so one of the pitfalls of working with certain companies or the mistake that they make is the design team will hand off a file full of random assets for paid acquisition without any sense of how the channel works.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此，与某些公司合作的陷阱之一或他们犯的错误是，设计团队会在不了解渠道如何运作的情况下，将一份充满随机资产的文件交给付费收购。

And what I mean by that is these days we're using the analogy, the classic analogy of the funnel to organize our thinking around creative assets.

我的意思是，现在我们正在使用漏斗的经典类比来组织我们围绕创意资产的思考。

So you can think about this as generating intent at the top of funnel and capturing intent at the bottom of the funnel.

因此，您可以将其视为在漏斗顶部生成意图并在漏斗底部捕获意图。

When I think about an experience that I want a consumer to have on Facebook, audience targeting and creative, I think about us beginning a conversation at the top of funnel creatively with an audience, having that conversation change as we say different things, and the audience that we're targeting ultimately graduates through different behaviors on our website from one to another, and then ultimately it resulting in an end to the conversation where they take an action hopefully that the brand that we're working with is looking for.

当我想到我希望消费者在 Facebook 上获得的一种体验、受众定位和创意时，我会想到我们在漏斗顶部创造性地与受众进行对话，当我们说不同的话时，对话就会发生变化，而我们的目标受众最终会通过我们网站上的不同行为而毕业，然后最终导致对话结束，他们希望采取与我们合作的品牌正在寻找的行动。

Jonathan Becker: And so there's a clear beginning, middle and end to that.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以有一个清晰的开始、中间和结束。

And one of the major pitfalls that we see is that certain brands just dump one homogenous message into all of their targeting.

我们看到的主要陷阱之一是某些品牌只是将一种同质的信息倾倒到他们的所有目标中。

You see the same ad over and over again.

您会一遍又一遍地看到同一个广告。

It creates banner blindness and it's a total lack of efficiency.

它造成了横幅盲目性并且完全缺乏效率。

The antidote to that is to have resources dedicated to paid and essentially iterate upon the creative assets themselves based on the data that we see coming from ad sets and campaigns in various channels.

解决这个问题的方法是拥有专门用于付费的资源，并根据我们从各种渠道的广告集和活动中看到的数据来迭代创意资产本身。

And so what that means is that you have to experiment.

这意味着你必须进行实验。

You have to take a bit of a scientific approach, although it's a bit of an art and a bit of a science.

你必须采取一些科学的方法，尽管它既是一门艺术，又是一门科学。

You have to try and isolate variables, maintain similar conditions across targeting, and then determine which style and feature of an ad performs best at which stage of the funnel versus which audience.

您必须尝试隔离变量，在定位中保持类似的条件，然后确定广告的哪种风格和功能在漏斗的哪个阶段与哪个受众群体中表现最好。

And the results that we see are dramatically different from brand to brand.

我们看到的结果因品牌而异。

But if you are not undertaking rigorous testing in conjunction with how you are driving the iteration and design of your ads, then you will not make progress essentially.

但是，如果您没有结合推动广告迭代和设计的方式进行严格的测试，那么您将不会取得本质上的进展。

Lenny: Is there a specific example that comes to mind here as something we did that just dramatically changed the impact of a change to a creative?

Lenny：这里是否有一个具体的例子，我们所做的事情极大地改变了创意变更的影响？

Or if you can't think of one, are there just specific tactics that you can suggest for people to improve the way they approach creatives?

或者，如果您想不出一个，您是否可以建议人们改进他们处理创意的方式的具体策略？

Jonathan Becker: Yeah.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的。

So I think from a testing point of view, let's say I was running ads on Meta, beneath the campaign level when I create a campaign, the structure that my testing might take would be that I would have an audience, a single audience at the ad set level, and then I would have two nearly identical creatives within that ad set.

因此，我认为从测试的角度来看，假设我在 Meta 上运行广告，当我创建广告系列时，我的测试可能采用的结构是，我将拥有一个受众，即广告集级别的单个受众，然后我将在该广告集中拥有两个几乎相同的广告素材。

The only thing being different across those two creative assets is a single variable.

这两种创意资产唯一不同的是一个变量。

So it might be the copy, it might be an image or whatnot.

所以它可能是副本，也可能是图像或其他什么。

That allows us to isolate a lot of variables and really test into one singular change across two creative assets.

这使我们能够隔离许多变量，并真正测试两个创意资产的单一变化。

There's a lot of nuance to this.

这有很多细微差别。

So sometimes the ad-serving algorithms, even when we set up a test structurally in that way, we'll serve one ad a different number of impressions than the other ad, in which case we then have to say, what is a leveling factor that allows us to look at these two ads equally, even though one received dramatically more impressions than the other?

因此，有时广告投放算法，即使我们以这种方式在结构上设置测试，我们也会为一个广告提供与另一个广告不同数量的展示次数，在这种情况下，我们不得不说，什么是一个均衡因子，可以让我们平等地看待这两个广告，即使其中一个广告比另一个广告获得了更多的展示次数？

Jonathan Becker: This becomes where it becomes subjective in terms of how you want to determine success.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这使得你想要如何确定成功变得主观。

But a good example is looking at the click-through rate, which is essentially a ratio or a metric like impressions until conversion, which is a leveling metric that allows us to determine, even though in a scenario where two ads facing the same audience within the same campaign received different numbers of impressions, we can still measure the efficiency or effectiveness of one ad over the other using metrics like that.

但一个很好的例子是查看点击率，它本质上是一个比率或一个指标，例如转化前的展示次数，它是一个衡量指标，使我们能够确定，即使在同一广告系列中面向同一受众的两个广告收到不同数量的展示次数的情况下，我们仍然可以使用这样的指标来衡量一个广告相对于另一个广告的效率或有效性。

And so from a testing point of view, I think that this is one way that we might look at trying to assess ad performance so that we can gather learnings, send that back to a creative team and say, hey, it turns out that when this copy is used at this stage of the funnel, it converts 50% more frequently than this other copy.

因此，从测试的角度来看，我认为这是我们可能会尝试评估广告效果的一种方法，以便我们可以收集经验教训，将其发送回创意团队，然后说，嘿，事实证明，当在漏斗的这个阶段使用此副本时，它的转化频率比其他副本高 50%。

Jonathan Becker: So let's now take that copy, use it as our base copy and challenge it with a different type of copy and see if we can continually iterate and refine.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以现在让我们采用该副本，将其用作我们的基础副本，并使用不同类型的副本来挑战它，看看我们是否可以不断迭代和完善。

So that's a very practical example of how ad creative testing might work on a channel like Meta.

这是一个非常实际的例子，展示了广告创意测试如何在 Meta 等渠道上进行。

You asked for specific examples where we've seen an unlock.

您要求我们提供解锁的具体示例。

There's two that come to mind.

我想到了两个。

Several years ago we realized that highly produced ads from brand teams, and there's nothing wrong with brand teams, we work with them all the time.

几年前，我们意识到品牌团队制作的广告质量很高，品牌团队没有任何问题，我们一直与他们合作。

They do amazing work.

他们的工作非常出色。

I think we're just trying to work as a singular unit as opposed to being fragmented.

我认为我们只是想作为一个单一的整体来工作，而不是分散开来。

But a lot of the brand guidelines of different companies would end up yielding these highly polished assets.

但不同公司的许多品牌指南最终都会产生这些高度抛光的资产。

And when you launch those on Instagram back in the day or something like that, what we found is that they would always underperform next to user generated assets.

当你当年在 Instagram 或类似的东西上推出这些内容时，我们发现它们总是比用户生成的资产表现不佳。

Jonathan Becker: So a brand that essentially has an influencer in front of it that says, I tried this product, I love it, I'm filming this ad from my iPhone.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：所以这个品牌本质上有一个有影响力的人在它面前说，我尝试了这个产品，我喜欢它，我正在用我的 iPhone 拍摄这个广告。

Look, check it out.

看看，检查一下。

Here's the product, here's me, I'm better off for it.

这是产品，这是我，我会因此而变得更好。

Whatever it is that they're talking about.

不管他们在谈论什么。

The unpolished iPhone, mobile phone creative, suddenly we realized massively outperformed these other channels because there was an authenticity to it.

未经打磨的 iPhone、手机创意，我们突然意识到它远远优于其他渠道，因为它具有真实性。

And rather than the brands themselves saying, hey, trust us, our product is great, here's a third party essentially validating what is so great about these brands, basically.

而不是品牌自己说，嘿，相信我们，我们的产品很棒，这里有一个第三方基本上验证了这些品牌的伟大之处。

So I can't speak to specific clients because I'm not allowed to talk about the work that we've done in large part, but that would be one example.

因此，我无法与特定客户交谈，因为我不被允许谈论我们所做的大部分工作，但这只是一个例子。

And another example is we worked with a furniture company several years ago, which scaled dramatically, but they were having difficulty early on thinking through how to scale social ads.

另一个例子是，几年前我们与一家家具公司合作，该公司规模迅速扩大，但他们在早期思考如何扩大社交广告规模时遇到了困难。

Jonathan Becker: And so paid search worked really well for them.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此付费搜索对他们来说非常有效。

Social ads, again, they had these highly produced styled rooms and one of the owners had their dog in the office all the time, and so they have these models sitting on furniture or whatever it was, and they would take these beautiful styled shots of their furniture in a room and one of the art directors was like, put the dog on the couch and let's take some photos of dogs on furniture, which made it more playful and approachable.

社交广告，再一次，他们有这些制作精良的风格房间，其中一位业主一直在办公室里养狗，所以他们让这些模特坐在家具或其他什么东西上，他们会在房间里拍摄这些漂亮风格的家具照片，其中一位艺术总监就像，把狗放在沙发上，让我们拍一些狗在家具上的照片，这使它更有趣和平易近人。

That one change resulted in a total unlock of their performance on paid social channels.

这一变化导致他们在付费社交渠道上的表现得到了全面释放。

It would double or triple the ROAS that we were seeing type thing.

这将使我们所看到的 ROAS 增加一倍或三倍。

So it's these minute differences that you can test into that ultimately can drive performance.

因此，您可以测试这些微小的差异，最终可以提高性能。

Lenny: That reminds me of Airbnb.

莱尼：这让我想起了 Airbnb。

The photography team found, and actually the photography team was initially including people in the photos of listings, and that was the images of listing photos.

摄影团队发现，实际上摄影团队最初是在房源照片中加入了人物，这就是房源照片的图像。

And it turns out when there's no people in the listing photo, much higher conversion.

事实证明，当列表照片中没有人时，转化率会更高。

And the theory basically people don't want to see other random strangers in a place they're going to sleep, and that was not expected.

从理论上讲，基本上人们不想在他们要睡觉的地方看到其他随机的陌生人，这是出乎意料的。

Jonathan Becker: That's a really great example.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这是一个很好的例子。

And so the question becomes, as a company and as a brand, do you arrive at those learnings anecdotally by accident?

所以问题就变成了，作为一家公司和一个品牌，你是否是偶然从轶事中学到这些知识的？

Is it the brilliance of one person on the team that the whole brand is predicated upon in terms of performance?

整个品牌的业绩是否取决于团队中某个人的才华？

Or do you put a very rigorous structure around testing and the iteration of assets and how to determine whether something works over another thing that is a process that yields the outcomes that you're looking for?

或者，您是否围绕测试和资产迭代建立了非常严格的结构，以及如何确定某事物是否优于另一事物（即产生您正在寻找的结果的过程）？

And so a lot of times with agencies, people talk to us about the obvious hard skills that we have, but the soft skills are around process that can be deployed, that can actually be the difference between being highly sophisticated or unsophisticated.

因此，很多时候，在代理机构中，人们会与我们谈论我们拥有的明显的硬技能，但软技能是围绕可以部署的流程，这实际上可能是高度复杂或简单之间的区别。

Internal teams do this too, but that Airbnb example is a great illustration of how if you put the right testing in place, you can yield an outcome that becomes an unlock for performance.

内部团队也会这样做，但 Airbnb 的例子很好地说明了如果进行正确的测试，就可以产生释放性能的结果。

Lenny: Getting even more tactical with that idea of testing a bunch of creatives makes me think about a story from chatting with a guy from Wish who's had a growth at Wish about how they uploaded hundreds of variations.

Lenny：测试一堆创意的想法变得更具策略性，这让我想起了与一位来自 Wish 的人聊天的故事，他在 Wish 获得了成长，讲述了他们如何上传数百个变体。

And I think Wish is the epitome of the opposite of brand highly polished ads or it's just the most ridiculous looking product with just banners and numbers and prices and crossouts and all kinds of stuff, just anything that would take to get people to click.

我认为 Wish 是品牌高度精美广告的反面缩影，或者它只是看起来最可笑的产品，只有横幅、数字、价格、划线和各种各样的东西，只是任何能让人们点击的东西。

Is there a tool or process that you can point people to to help them do this testing on creatives or is it mostly built into the existing tools now and there's nothing really fancy about it?

您是否可以向人们指出一种工具或流程来帮助他们对广告素材进行测试，或者它现在主要内置于现有工具中，并且没有什么真正奇特的东西？

Jonathan Becker: We get asked this a lot and I think there are tools for different types of functions that we undertake in the process of running paid acquisition for different brands, but these days most of the testing that we do is within the channels themselves.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我们经常被问到这个问题，我认为我们在为不同品牌进行付费收购的过程中承担了不同类型功能的工具，但现在我们所做的大部分测试都是在渠道本身内进行的。

So Meta ads, Google Ads, I keep touching on those two specifically because they're the most advanced in my opinion.

因此，元广告、Google Ads，我一直在专门讨论这两个广告，因为在我看来它们是最先进的。

They're really powerful.

他们真的很强大。

The good news here is that you don't necessarily need some exotic tool to do sophisticated creative testing.

好消息是，您不一定需要一些奇特的工具来进行复杂的创意测试。

You can do it in platform and you can use the structure that I just kind of outlined as a starting point.

您可以在平台中完成此操作，并且可以使用我刚刚概述的结构作为起点。

Lenny: You mentioned Google and Facebook.

莱尼：你提到了谷歌和 Facebook。

What is your take on TikTok and YouTube and maybe Snap?

您对 TikTok 和 YouTube 以及 Snap 有何看法？

Do you recommend people go there and there's a big opportunity?

你会推荐人们去那里吗？那里有很大的机会吗？

Do you think it's overblown?

你认为这太过分了吗？

Do you think people should just take Google and Facebook basically at this point?

你认为人们现在应该只考虑谷歌和 Facebook 吗？

What's your general advice?

您的一般建议是什么？

Jonathan Becker: So when I say Google and I say Facebook, I'm talking about the Google ecosystem of channels inclusive of YouTube.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以当我说 Google 和 Facebook 时，我指的是包括 YouTube 在内的 Google 频道生态系统。

And when I talk about Facebook, I'm talking about Facebook, Instagram, and probably eventually WhatsApp, which I think will probably launch ads later this year.

当我谈论 Facebook 时，我指的是 Facebook、Instagram，最终可能还有 WhatsApp，我认为 WhatsApp 可能会在今年晚些时候推出广告。

With all that said, some interesting opportunities these days really exist on channels like Amazon and TikTok as well as a number of other challenger channels I think.

话虽如此，如今亚马逊和 TikTok 等渠道以及我认为的其他一些挑战者渠道确实存在一些有趣的机会。

Snap I'll talk a little bit less about because I think really there's just fewer and fewer people potentially using Snap.

Snap 我会少谈一点，因为我认为潜在使用 Snap 的人确实越来越少。

There's no knock on Snap.

Snap 没有任何敲门声。

I use Snap, I like it a lot, but at the same time, most individuals or organizations tend to want to place ads where there's a lot of views and engagement and the king of this right now is definitely TikTok.

我使用 Snap，我非常喜欢它，但与此同时，大多数个人或组织倾向于将广告放置在有大量浏览量和参与度的地方，而目前的王者无疑是 TikTok。

And so TikTok faces its own set of challenges and arguably there is as much an opportunity there as a barrier at the moment.

因此，TikTok 面临着自己的一系列挑战，可以说，目前机会与障碍一样多。

Jonathan Becker: I love TikTok.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我喜欢 TikTok。

I'm a consumer of content on TikTok, not a producer of content on TikTok.

我是 TikTok 内容的消费者，而不是 TikTok 内容的生产者。

Their ads platform kind of reminds me of where Facebook ads was like six, seven years ago.

他们的广告平台让我想起了六七年前 Facebook 广告的情况。

It's not super sophisticated and attribution is not great yet, but you can get cheap CPCs because there's just fewer organizations advertising there.

它还不是非常复杂，归因也不是很好，但你可以获得便宜的每次点击费用，因为在那里做广告的组织较少。

Fewer companies have figured out how to make that work.

很少有公司知道如何实现这一目标。

And same thing with Amazon.

亚马逊也是如此。

Amazon is a bit of a bespoke channel.

亚马逊有点像定制渠道。

It doesn't work for a B2B SaaS company.

它不适用于 B2B SaaS 公司。

It's more specific to D2C I would say.

我想说的是，它更具体地针对 D2C。

But essentially those channels are wonderful.

但本质上这些渠道都很棒。

They're not at the point yet where they're kind of ubiquitous.

它们还没有达到无处不在的程度。

Every single advertiser that has ever worked with us I think in the last 10 years is for sure on Google.

我认为过去 10 年来与我们合作过的每一位广告客户都肯定会选择 Google。

Everybody does that.

每个人都这样做。

And then the question is, what else can I invest money in with the expectation of profitability?

那么问题来了，除了预期盈利之外，我还可以投资什么？

Jonathan Becker: And so TikTok and Amazon, and even if I want to break out YouTube, they tend to be a little bit more specific and they definitely work, but not for everybody yet.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以 TikTok 和亚马逊，即使我想突破 YouTube，它们往往更具体一些，而且肯定有效，但还不是适合所有人。

And so the question becomes, will TikTok become as prominent as a social ads platform like Meta Ads?

那么问题来了，TikTok 会像 Meta Ads 这样的社交广告平台一样引人注目吗？

And we just don't know yet.

我们还不知道。

What we see working very nicely on TikTok, by the way, are these founder led brands where the founder is the ambassador and they're doing those handheld videos with their iPhone.

顺便说一句，我们看到 TikTok 上运作良好的是这些创始人领导的品牌，其中创始人是大使，他们用 iPhone 制作这些手持视频。

They're talking about the merits of the products that they make.

他们正在谈论他们生产的产品的优点。

They're talking about the problems that they solve.

他们正在谈论他们解决的问题。

They are great at cultivating a following.

他们非常擅长培养追随者。

Their content is highly engaging.

他们的内容非常吸引人。

Those types of organizations crush it.

这些类型的组织会粉碎它。

Also, companies that got really good at partnering with influencers.

此外，那些非常善于与有影响力的人合作的公司。

So we haven't talked about partner marketing that much, but affiliate marketing companies got into this early, and then influencer marketing networks are all over this.

所以我们没有太多谈论合作伙伴营销，但联属营销公司很早就进入了这个领域，然后有影响力的营销网络都在这方面。

But essentially having these third parties be an ambassador for your brand in an authentic way, partnering with them, having them generate the content.

但本质上是让这些第三方以真实的方式成为你的品牌大使，与他们合作，让他们生成内容。

And that's the nature of the partnership.

这就是伙伴关系的本质。

Stuff like that seems...

诸如此类的事情似乎...

Jonathan Becker: ...

乔纳森·贝克尔：……

And that's the nature of the partnership.

这就是伙伴关系的本质。

Stuff like that seems to work quite well.

类似的东西似乎效果很好。

Lenny: Awesome, I love those bullet points of just what is likely to work on TikTok.

Lenny：太棒了，我喜欢那些可能在 TikTok 上发挥作用的要点。

Lenny: Just broadly, would you say TikTok advertising today is underrated, overrated, or just right?

Lenny：从广义上讲，您认为当今的 TikTok 广告被低估、高估还是恰到好处？

Jonathan Becker: If you are e-comm based, if you're wholesale, retail based, anything direct to consumer, you have to investigate TikTok and try and figure out whether there's a way of promoting your products there, basically.

乔纳森·贝克尔：如果你是电子商务公司，如果你是批发、零售企业，任何直接面向消费者的产品，你都必须调查 TikTok，并尝试弄清楚是否有办法在那里推广你的产品。

It's a massive, highly engaged audience with somewhat specific demographics.

这是一个庞大的、高度参与的受众，具有特定的人口统计特征。

It's a very exciting opportunity.

这是一个非常令人兴奋的机会。

Other brands need to pay attention to this and figure out what their entry point is going to be.

其他品牌需要关注这一点并弄清楚他们的切入点是什么。

And just because the innovation hasn't happened for B2B SaaS yet on TikTok doesn't mean it won't.

TikTok 上的 B2B SaaS 创新尚未发生，并不意味着它不会发生。

TikTok wants that to happen, and so the question becomes how.

TikTok 希望实现这一点，所以问题就变成了如何实现。

And so someone will unlock that, and they'll make a billion dollars because of it.

所以有人会解锁它，他们会因此赚到十亿美元。

Jonathan Becker: But I wouldn't recommend that channel to everybody yet, and at Thrive for instance, we don't have a huge amount of people coming to us yet saying, "Hey, I'm spending $750,000 a month on TikTok, can you help me?" Type thing.

乔纳森·贝克尔：但我还不会向所有人推荐这个频道，例如在 Thrive，我们还没有大量的人来找我们说：“嘿，我每个月在 TikTok 上花费 75 万美元，你能帮助我吗？”键入东西。

The other problem with TikTok is that it's extraordinarily creative, asset dependent, and heavy.

TikTok 的另一个问题是它非常有创意、依赖资产且沉重。

And so you are launching net new assets several times per week, it is hard for creative teams and brands to produce that much content.

因此，您每周都会推出几次净新资产，创意团队和品牌很难制作那么多内容。

It takes a machine, and that's expensive, and so that all factors into the cost of not only just the ad dollars, but the creative resourcing and investment that's required to power that.

它需要一台机器，而且价格昂贵，因此所有因素不仅影响广告费用，还影响其所需的创意资源和投资。

So it can be done in a more nimble manner if you're spending less, but you can't really get to a million dollars a month on TikTok without having a huge amount of creative being pushed to that channel.

因此，如果你花得更少，就可以以更灵活的方式完成，但如果没有大量创意被推送到该渠道，你就不可能真正在 TikTok 上达到每月 100 万美元。

Lenny: Awesome, that's really good advice.

莱尼：太棒了，这真是个好建议。

I want to chat out about AI soon, just because I imagine that could help with some of these things.

我想尽快谈论人工智能，只是因为我认为这可以帮助解决其中一些问题。

But you mentioned B2B SaaS, and I wanted to ask, I imagine Google is the primary channel for B2B SaaS, and if not, or if it is, where else do you find there's value in spending money to drive growth through B2B SaaS, which channels and ad networks?

但你提到了 B2B SaaS，我想问一下，我想 Google 是 B2B SaaS 的主要渠道，如果不是，或者是的话，你认为通过 B2B SaaS 花钱来推动增长还有什么价值，哪些渠道和广告网络？

Jonathan Becker: So I'm agnostic here in terms of where people should be spending money.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以我对人们应该把钱花在哪里持不可知论。

I see this world in terms of impressions and clicks, and does that conform to the marketing economics of a project that needs to be achieved in order for it to grow.

我从印象和点击的角度来看待这个世界，这是否符合项目发展所需实现的营销经济学。

It's less about where to place your money and how to think about the placement of those funds.

重点不在于把钱放在哪里以及如何考虑这些资金的放置。

And so the common mistake that we see as people build out a funnel, so to speak, for B2B lead gen projects, or B2C lead gen projects, is they'll be overly reliant on the first of a sequence of metrics that ultimately yields a sale.

因此，我们看到，当人们为 B2B 潜在客户开发项目或 B2C 潜在客户开发项目建立漏斗时，我们看到的常见错误是他们会过度依赖最终产生销售的一系列指标中的第一个。

Jonathan Becker: So typically it's something like cost per lead, marketing qualified lead, sales accepted lead, there might be a couple more metrics there, and then eventually a sale occurs.

乔纳森·贝克尔：通常情况下，它是每个潜在客户的成本、营销合格的潜在客户、销售接受的潜在客户，可能还有更多的指标，然后最终发生销售。

And so that the thinking is that, okay, for sales to occur, I need more leads at the top of the funnel.

所以我的想法是，好吧，为了实现销售，我需要在漏斗顶部有更多的线索。

The more leads I have, the more marketing qualified leads I'll get, the more sales accepted leads get, and ultimately the more opportunities there will be and the more revenue will generate.

我拥有的销售线索越多，我获得的营销合格销售线索就越多，销售接受的销售线索就越多，最终机会就越多，收入也就越多。

Jonathan Becker: And so if I think about this world of lead generation on performance marketing platforms as a function of cost per lead in that sense that I just described, then the tendency is always to want to drive down the cost per lead, thinking that that's the efficiency, I can get more cheaper leads and that will yield more revenue.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此，如果我将绩效营销平台上的潜在客户生成视为我刚才描述的每个潜在客户成本的函数，那么趋势总是希望降低每个潜在客户的成本，认为这就是效率，我可以获得更便宜的潜在客户，从而产生更多收入。

When in fact it turns out that if you flip that conversation on its head and say, not all opportunities and sales are equal, and instead of focusing upfront on a cost per lead, I now want to focus on what is a high value customer, so the cost per lead is actually higher, but the ROI of targeting those people is also higher.

事实上，如果你把这个话题反过来说，并不是所有的机会和销售都是平等的，我现在不想预先关注每个潜在客户的成本，而是关注高价值客户，因此每个潜在客户的成本实际上更高，但针对这些人的投资回报率也更高。

And so to get the higher quality leads, it's not a function of CPL.

因此，要获得更高质量的潜在客户，这不是 CPL 的功能。

Jonathan Becker: And so that is a very common pitfall that we see when people come to us.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此，当人们来找我们时，这是我们看到的一个非常常见的陷阱。

The antidote to this, it's interesting, so Thrive developed an ETL tool, an extract transfer load tool called Thrive Stack.

对此的解药，很有趣，因此 Thrive 开发了一个 ETL 工具，一个名为 Thrive Stack 的提取传输加载工具。

It's not commercially available, but if you wanted a commercially available version of this, you can use something called Supermetrics.

它不是商业可用的，但如果您想要它的商业可用版本，您可以使用称为 Supermetrics 的东西。

Basically Supermetrics is a data connector.

基本上 Supermetrics 是一个数据连接器。

There's a world of different data connectors out there, but it allows you to pipe, via an API, revenue data from your CRM into a third party database that can then be joined with data from the channel itself.

那里有很多不同的数据连接器，但它允许您通过 API 将收入数据从 CRM 传输到第三方数据库，然后可以与来自渠道本身的数据连接。

You can build tables within a database and normalize them together in a manner where you can start to determine the relationship between, again, the audience that a particular cohort of opportunities came from and whether a sufficient degree of revenue is derived from those opportunities.

您可以在数据库中构建表格，并将它们标准化在一起，这样您就可以开始确定特定机会群体所来自的受众之间的关系，以及是否从这些机会中获得了足够的收入。

Jonathan Becker: And then you can build upon that what is known as a lead scoring model, which allows you to bid in real time on the audiences that have a higher likelihood to convert to high revenue generating customers.

乔纳森·贝克尔：然后您可以建立所谓的潜在客户评分模型，该模型允许您对更有可能转化为高收入客户的受众进行实时出价。

And so the magic there, we talked a little bit about rates of return and instant gratification in the performance marketing world, lead generation inherently is a slow gratification process.

因此，神奇之处在于，我们讨论了绩效营销领域的回报率和即时满足感，潜在客户的产生本质上是一个缓慢的满足过程。

And so the problem is that if my pipeline is full of opportunities that yield revenue in two months, six months, sometimes 12 months, how do I determine how heavily to bid on different leads today in order to predictively have an outcome where I'm maximizing revenue?

所以问题是，如果我的渠道充满了在两个月、六个月、有时是 12 个月内产生收入的机会，我如何确定今天对不同潜在客户的出价力度，以便预测获得收入最大化的结果？

And a lead scoring model basically solves for that.

潜在客户评分模型基本上解决了这个问题。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。

I have a quick request, head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year.

我有一个简短的请求，请前往 miro.com/lenny 上的 Miro 董事会，让我知道您今年希望我邀请哪些嘉宾。

I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming.

我已经收到了很多很好的建议，当你去那里时你会看到这些建议，所以请继续提供。

Lenny: And while you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool.

Lenny：当您在 Miro 板上时，我鼓励您尝试使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to capture ideas, get feedback, and collaborate with your colleagues on anything that you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以用来捕捉想法、获取反馈以及与同事就您正在处理的任何事情进行协作。

For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy.

例如，通过Miro，您可以规划下季度的整个产品策略。

You can start by brainstorming using sticky notes, reactions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's sprints.

您可以从使用便利贴、反应、投票工具甚至估算应用程序进行头脑风暴来确定团队的冲刺范围。

Then your whole distributed team can come together around wire frames, dry ideas with a pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board.

然后，您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，使用钢笔工具干燥想法，然后将完整的模拟直接放入 Miro 板中。

And with one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research, to product roadmaps, to customer journey flows, to final mocks, all in Miro.

借助 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程，再到最终模拟，一切都在 Miro 中进行。

Head on over to miro.

前往米罗。

com/lenny to leave your suggestions.

com/lenny 留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: You talked about attribution, and I thought this would be a great time to get into that.

莱尼：你谈到了归因，我认为现在是讨论这个问题的好时机。

So the way I think about this is oftentimes the biggest challenge in driving growth isn't the actual work you do to drive growth, it's measuring what impact your work is having and understanding where dollars are spent effectively.

因此，我认为推动增长的最大挑战通常不是你为推动增长所做的实际工作，而是衡量你的工作所产生的影响并了解资金的有效使用情况。

And things are changing heavily in attribution land with privacy shifts and ATT and iOS 14.5.1, or maybe whatever the version was that came out that changed everything.

随着隐私转变、ATT 和 iOS 14.5.1，或者可能是任何版本的出现改变了一切，归属领域的情况正在发生巨大变化。

And so my question is, what changed, is one, in terms of being able to do attribution.

所以我的问题是，改变的地方之一是能够进行归因。

Maybe even explain what attribution means for folks that are just like, what the hell are you even talking about?

也许甚至可以解释一下归因对于那些就像“你到底在说什么”的人意味着什么？

And then finally, just what do you recommend people do now to do attribution well in this new environment?

最后，您建议人们现在做什么才能在这个新环境中做好归因？

Jonathan Becker: Yeah, it's a really, really great and pertinent question in the industry, and it has a lot of focus on it now, but attribution has always been a conversation that's been very important.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的，这是行业中一个非常非常重要且相关的问题，现在人们对此非常关注，但归因一直是一个非常重要的对话。

So just to kick things off, attribution essentially is how we determine the relationship between what we did and what happened.

首先，归因本质上是我们如何确定我们所做的事情和所发生的事情之间的关系。

In the context of performance marketing this means what ads did we serve, what campaigns did we launch, and generally what was the revenue ultimately that was derived from these campaigns?

在效果营销的背景下，这意味着我们投放了哪些广告，我们发起了哪些活动，以及通常从这些活动中最终获得的收入是多少？

And so there's a funny quote that I love, someone named John Wanamaker in 1919 said, "I know-"

我很喜欢一句有趣的话，一位名叫约翰·沃纳梅克 (John Wanamaker) 的人在 1919 年说过，“我知道——”

Lenny: I bet I'm going to guess what it is.

莱尼：我打赌我会猜出那是什么。

Lenny: It's, "Half my marketing dollars are wasted, I just don't know which half."

莱尼：“我的营销资金有一半被浪费了，我只是不知道是哪一半。”

Jonathan Becker: Exactly, I love that you knew that.

乔纳森·贝克尔：没错，我很高兴你知道这一点。

He said this in 1919.

他在 1919 年说过这句话。

The world was a very different place there, but oddly enough we still have these types of problems today and it's because the world of what I did and what happened because of what I did is very complicated.

那里的世界是一个非常不同的地方，但奇怪的是，我们今天仍然遇到这些类型的问题，这是因为我所做的事情以及因我所做的事情而发生的事情非常复杂。

There's so many variables, some of which we know, and then some of which we don't know that we don't know, type thing.

有这么多变量，其中一些我们知道，然后有些我们不知道我们不知道，键入东西。

And so attribution, as it stands in our industry, is still an incredibly subjective art and somewhat of a science.

因此，就我们行业而言，归因仍然是一门极其主观的艺术，而且在某种程度上是一门科学。

It doesn't mean that it's impossible, and it doesn't mean that there aren't varying degrees of sophistication as it relates to attribution, but we're still in a place where we have to understand the business and its goals, and then start to work on an attribution model.

这并不意味着这是不可能的，也不意味着与归因相关的复杂程度不存在，但我们仍然处于必须了解业务及其目标，然后开始研究归因模型的阶段。

Jonathan Becker: An attribution model is probably something that is never solved, but I'll give you a couple of examples.

乔纳森·贝克尔：归因模型可能是永远无法解决的问题，但我会给你几个例子。

So number one around attribution, it's important to determine whether an organization, a company, a client, is focused on profitability or growth.

因此，关于归因，确定一个组织、一家公司、一个客户是否关注盈利或增长非常重要。

Whether I use one attribution lens or another will drive those outcomes.

无论我使用一种归因镜头还是另一种归因镜头都会推动这些结果。

And so these days, for a number of different reasons, you mentioned iOS 14.5, in addition to third party cookie deprecation, and whatnot.

因此，这些天，出于多种不同的原因，您提到了 iOS 14.5，以及弃用第三方 cookie 等。

Jonathan Becker: There's no one way necessarily of approaching attribution.

乔纳森·贝克尔：没有一种方法可以确定归因。

The most classic and commonly held version of attribution used to be a cookie-based form of attribution called last click attribution, meaning that the last click in the sequence of clicks that yielded a conversion would be attributed with all the revenue from that conversion.

最经典、最常用的归因版本是基于 Cookie 的归因形式，称为最终点击归因，这意味着产生转化的点击序列中的最后一次点击将归因于该转化的所有收入。

Other models in a cookie-based world involved first touch attribution, so it's actually the first click.

基于 cookie 的世界中的其他模型涉及首次触摸归因，因此它实际上是第一次点击。

So I launch an ad, it's in an audience that doesn't know about my service or my brand, and so the first click that I get should be given all the credit for that sale.

因此，我发布了一个广告，它的受众并不了解我的服务或我的品牌，因此我获得的第一次点击应该被视为该销售的全部功劳。

And then there's multi-touch attribution, which can take several different forms, but essentially is saying it's not one way or the other of the two first versus last click options, it's somewhere in between.

然后是多点触摸归因，它可以采取几种不同的形式，但本质上是说它不是第一次和最后一次点击选项中的一种或另一种，而是介于两者之间。

So I'm going to create a weighted attribution model where the first touch gets so much of the credit and the last touch gets so much of the credit.

因此，我将创建一个加权归因模型，其中第一次触摸获得了如此多的功劳，而最后一次触摸也获得了如此多的功劳。

Jonathan Becker: This is very subjective, as you can see.

乔纳森·贝克尔：正如你所看到的，这是非常主观的。

I am essentially looking at my business model, determining what my goals are, and then I'm backing out into an attribution methodology that I think adheres to both the economics of my business and the capabilities of these platforms.

我本质上是在研究我的商业模式，确定我的目标是什么，然后我采用一种我认为既符合我的业务经济性又符合这些平台功能的归因方法。

And again, we live in a world where a single brand might do television advertising, they might buy media in magazines, they might buy billboards, they might get impressions from Facebook, they might do paid search, so there's a big argument over how to ultimately model this.

再说一次，我们生活在一个单一品牌可能会做电视广告的世界，他们可能会购买杂志媒体，他们可能会购买广告牌，他们可能会从 Facebook 获得印象，他们可能会进行付费搜索，所以对于最终如何建模存在很大争议。

Jonathan Becker: So there was something called an IDFA that Apple allowed advertisers to use, and essentially what that was, it literally means ID for advertisers, and it allowed Facebook, Google, and other advertisers, Snap, TikTok, whoever was essentially selling ads that were predicated on being displayed on a Apple mobile device or a desktop device, it allowed the advertiser to provide attribution metrics and certain types of customer match metric metrics in their own platforms.

乔纳森·贝克尔：苹果允许广告商使用一种叫做 IDFA 的东西，从本质上讲，它的字面意思是广告商的 ID，它允许 Facebook、谷歌和其他广告商（Snap、TikTok），无论谁本质上销售的是在苹果移动设备或桌面设备上显示的广告，它允许广告商在自己的平台上提供归因指标和某些类型的客户匹配指标。

And so when Apple ultimately launches its privacy changes, I believe in mid-2021, overnight it allows users to say, "Well, I don't want to share that information, I'm not going to share my IDFA anymore." Or, "Yes, I do want to share my IDFA." And so what you see as a result of that is less of the core data that Facebook in particular would've required to make attribution more airtight and ultimately validate its advertising.

因此，当苹果最终推出隐私变更时，我相信在 2021 年中期，一夜之间，它就可以让用户说：“好吧，我不想分享这些信息，我不会再分享我的 IDFA。”或者，“是的，我确实想分享我的 IDFA。”因此，你所看到的结果是，Facebook 需要的核心数据较少，而 Facebook 需要这些数据才能使归因更加严密，并最终验证其广告。

Jonathan Becker: So because we can no longer validate attribution on Facebook as seamlessly, we are in a situation where we're not sure any longer which audiences to target, and we're not sure how to run all of our creative testing, and ultimately we can't even determine the degree of revenue that's coming from particular campaigns that we've launched, and whatnot.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因此，因为我们无法再无缝地验证 Facebook 上的归因，所以我们不再确定要定位哪些受众，也不确定如何运行所有创意测试，最终我们甚至无法确定我们发起的特定活动的收入程度等等。

And so it created quite a stir in the world of attribution, which is obviously this core discussion to is it working or not?

因此，它在归因领域引起了不小的轰动，这显然是它是否有效的核心讨论？

People want to answer John Wanamaker's question, but the modern methodology now is through a number of different approaches to validation.

人们想要回答约翰·沃纳梅克的问题，但现在的现代方法是通过许多不同的方法来验证。

Jonathan Becker: So the cookie based attribution, which had been probably the most popular version of attribution in the 2010s, really up to this point, is now one of the ways that we would look at this, but we would also include things like various forms of statistical modeling, customer surveys, population surveys, there's a number of different ways to the same place here.

Jonathan Becker：因此，基于 cookie 的归因可能是 2010 年代最流行的归因版本，实际上到目前为止，它是我们看待此问题的方式之一，但我们还将包括各种形式的统计建模、客户调查、人口调查等内容，这里有许多不同的方法可以达到相同的目的。

Statistical modeling, by the way, one thing that's very popular these days, which I think was originally created in the 1950s, is a form of statistical modeling called media mix modeling.

顺便说一句，统计建模现在非常流行，我认为它最初是在 20 世纪 50 年代创建的，它是统计建模的一种形式，称为媒体混合建模。

It's essentially regression analysis, and it is trying to determine the causal relationship between, again, what you did and what the effect was on revenue.

它本质上是回归分析，它试图再次确定你所做的事情和对收入的影响之间的因果关系。

That's very topical in the industry these days.

这是当今业界非常热门的话题。

If you're looking for a tool off the shelf that can help with this, Recast is something that I see people using.

如果您正在寻找可以帮助解决此问题的现成工具，我看到人们正在使用 Recast。

But a lot of organizations build these highly customized bespoke models that ultimately feed the algorithm inside of an MMM model in a customized manner.

但许多组织构建了这些高度定制的定制模型，最终以定制的方式将算法提供给 MMM 模型内部的算法。

Lenny: What is it, or is there a recommendation of just like, hey, if you're trying to do attribution today, here's what you should do.

莱尼：这是什么，或者是否有类似的建议，嘿，如果你今天想进行归因，这就是你应该做的。

Is there a clear, do this, piece of advice, or is it super personalized depending on what you're trying to do?

是否有明确的建议，或者是否根据您想要做的事情进行超级个性化？

Jonathan Becker: The advice is that there's no single source of truth.

乔纳森·贝克尔：建议是，没有单一的事实来源。

Anyone who claims that they are a single source of truth, whether it's an individual, a model that they've created, or a tool that they've created, is not being accurate.

任何声称自己是单一事实来源的人，无论是个人、他们创建的模型还是他们创建的工具，都是不准确的。

I believe that the approach that works to attribution is that it's an ongoing investigation and it never stops, and essentially what you're doing is looking for evidence that validates the outcome of your performance marketing campaigns one way or the other.

我认为，有效的归因方法是，它是一项持续的调查，永无止境，本质上，您所做的就是寻找证据，以某种方式验证效果营销活动的结果。

Jonathan Becker: There have been plenty of incredibly sophisticated attribution models that we've helped build and invalidated with MMM or other types of tools that have indicated that the campaigns do not work.

Jonathan Becker：我们帮助建立了许多极其复杂的归因模型，并使用 MMM 或其他类型的工具使这些模型失效，这些模型表明这些活动不起作用。

So I will repeat that, we, a very sophisticated organization, have stood up campaigns that we measure and ultimately determine do not work, and that is an important finding in terms of an organization's determination of whether they want to continually invest, take budget out of these channels, or invest into other areas.

因此，我要重复一遍，我们，一个非常复杂的组织，已经开展了我们衡量并最终确定不起作用的活动，这是一个重要的发现，对于组织决定是否要继续投资、从这些渠道中扣除预算或投资于其他领域。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

You mentioned a company called Recast.

您提到了一家名为 Recast 的公司。

I don't think you knew this, but I'm actually an investor, and so obviously a big fan, so check it out.

我认为你不知道这一点，但我实际上是一名投资者，而且显然是一名忠实粉丝，所以请检查一下。

I don't know what the site is, recast.com maybe.

我不知道这个网站是什么，也许是 recast.com。

I think if you Google Recast attribution, we'll also have a link in the show notes.

我想如果你谷歌重播归因，我们也会在演出注释中提供一个链接。

Jonathan Becker: Cool.

乔纳森·贝克尔：酷。

Yeah, they're working with a couple of our clients right now and it's interesting, I like their approach.

是的，他们现在正在与我们的几个客户合作，这很有趣，我喜欢他们的方法。

Lenny: Yeah, they're basically, they're building the model as a SaaS tool to do attribution in a really clever way.

Lenny：是的，他们基本上正在将模型构建为 SaaS 工具，以一种非常聪明的方式进行归因。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, just a couple more questions, one is around AI, one is around agencies, and just how to start down this road.

好吧，还有几个问题，一个是关于人工智能的，一个是关于机构的，以及如何开始这条路。

How has AI in any way impacted the work you're doing today, or the work of paid growth, performance marketing, and then where do you think this will go in the next few years?

人工智能如何影响你今天所做的工作，或者付费增长、绩效营销的工作，那么你认为未来几年这将走向何方？

Jonathan Becker: Interestingly, and I think I alluded to this earlier, but our industry has been influenced by AI for over a decade.

乔纳森·贝克尔：有趣的是，我想我之前已经提到过这一点，但我们的行业十多年来一直受到人工智能的影响。

So Google, Facebook, even Microsoft, these are some of the organizations that historically have been at the bleeding edge of artificial intelligence, and their goal was always to automate as much as possible within these platforms.

因此，谷歌、Facebook，甚至微软，这些组织在历史上一直处于人工智能的前沿，他们的目标始终是在这些平台内尽可能实现自动化。

And so the effect ultimately that we've seen from a human capital point of view is displacement.

因此，从人力资本的角度来看，我们最终看到的影响是位移。

So we're actually, we have more people now than we've ever had, but the nature of the work that they do is more strategic, it's more about modeling, validation, asking the right questions, being focused around creative levers, like some of the things that we've talked about, and less so the trench work of implementation and bid modifiers at the keyword level on Google search, and some of the really hardcore manual analysis we had to do.

所以，实际上，我们现在的人员比以往任何时候都多，但他们所做的工作本质上更具战略性，更多的是关于建模、验证、提出正确的问题、专注于创意杠杆，就像我们讨论过的一些事情，而不是在谷歌搜索关键字级别的实施和出价修改器的沟渠工作，以及我们必须做的一些真正核心的手动分析。

Jonathan Becker: So I think if we are the canary in the coal mine for other industries, what will be interesting is I assume that if you work in an architecture office that you'll be doing less of the drafting, and it's already been a change that's occurred in those offices, but you'll be doing less of the drafting and more of this strategic problem solving around what kind of building is necessary for the client in this scenario, type thing.

乔纳森·贝克尔：所以我认为，如果我们是其他行业的煤矿里的金丝雀，有趣的是，我假设如果你在建筑办公室工作，你会减少起草工作，而且这些办公室已经发生了变化，但你会减少起草工作，更多地围绕在这种情况下客户需要什么样的建筑来解决战略问题，键入内容。

Jonathan Becker: And so on a practical level, though, some of these conversational AI models are very interesting for us in that when I think about creative testing, for instance, we can have ChatGPT come up with all kinds of variants of copy that we would not have necessarily thought of.

乔纳森·贝克尔：不过，在实践层面上，其中一些对话式人工智能模型对我们来说非常有趣，例如，当我考虑创意测试时，我们可以让 ChatGPT 提出我们不一定会想到的各种文案变体。

It can do a lot of drafting of things like RFP responses, so we can feed ChatGPT 100 previous RFP responses that we've done and have it spit out net new responses to net new questions in a net new RFP, and it's like 80% good and still requires 10 hours of work to massage to the point where we can send it off to a client, but that replaces a week of work with five or six people that it would've previously taken.

它可以做很多像 RFP 回复这样的事情的起草工作，所以我们可以向 ChatGPT 提供我们已经完成的 100 个之前的 RFP 回复，并让它在新的 RFP 中针对新的问题吐出新的新回复，它的效果大概是 80%，但仍然需要 10 个小时的工作才能将其发送给客户，但这取代了以前需要 5 到 6 个人进行一周的工作。

Lenny: And that's already happening today, you're saying?

莱尼：你是说，这种事今天已经发生了？

Jonathan Becker: That's happening now, literally right now, type thing, all of what I just said.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这就是现在正在发生的事情，字面上就是现在，请输入我刚才所说的所有内容。

And there's a lot of different ways that we are beginning to use AI to do more with less, basically.

基本上，我们开始通过多种不同的方式使用人工智能来事半功倍。

So that's how I see it influencing not just our industry, but other people's businesses as well.

因此，我认为它不仅影响我们的行业，还影响其他人的业务。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

So just to repeat what you said, your team now, because of ChatGPT is able to spend more time higher level, and leverage specifically ChatGPT to do this kind of, and RFPs are basically proposals, people are asking you to pitch to work with them, is that?

所以，重复一下你所说的，你的团队现在，因为 ChatGPT 能够花更多的时间在更高的水平上，并专门利用 ChatGPT 来做这种事情，而 RFP 基本上是提案，人们要求你与他们合作，是这样吗？

Jonathan Becker: Some of these AI-driven organizations that allow you to type in a prompt and it spits out an image, on our creative group we can come up with mockups in literally 1% of the time that it took.

Jonathan Becker：其中一些人工智能驱动的组织允许您输入提示，然后它会输出图像，在我们的创意团队中，我们可以在大约 1% 的时间内拿出模型。

So you no longer have to draw the initial mockups for art.

因此，您不再需要为艺术绘制最初的模型。

Suddenly what might have taken one person a week of work on a campaign takes an afternoon, type thing.

突然之间，原本需要一个人一周的工作时间才能完成的活动却需要一个下午的时间，打字的事情。

You still have to understand what questions to ask of the AI and be capable of iterating, but these rough drafts that you might show the artwork of to a client to say, "Do we like this more or do we like this more?" That's AI generated.

你仍然必须了解要向人工智能提出哪些问题并能够进行迭代，但是你可能会向客户展示这些粗略的草稿，并询问他们“我们更喜欢这个还是我们更喜欢这个？”这是人工智能生成的。

It's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Lenny: What's the tool your team uses for that, is it MidJourney or Dall-E or something else?

Lenny：您的团队为此使用什么工具，是 MidJourney 还是 Dall-E 还是其他工具？

Jonathan Becker: It's Dall-E and it's MidJourney, so you got it.

Jonathan Becker：这是 Dall-E，是 MidJourney，所以你明白了。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And so what you use it for is you're thinking about a concept and you just come up with a mock, coming up with a prompt to pitch what this could be.

所以你用它的目的是你正在思考一个概念，然后你只是想出一个模拟，提出一个提示来推销这可能是什么。

Jonathan Becker: Yeah, the interesting thing there is that these concepts often live inside of someone's head, and we do this thing as humans where we verbally discuss it, and I try and put the image in my mind's eye, in your mind's eye, which is an inherently inefficient process and actually hurts our ability to be creative leaders.

乔纳森·贝克尔：是的，有趣的是，这些概念经常存在于某人的头脑中，我们作为人类做这件事，我们口头讨论它，我尝试将图像放在我的脑海中，放在你的脑海中，这本质上是一个低效的过程，实际上损害了我们成为创造性领导者的能力。

Someone might just see it slightly differently than you do.

有人的看法可能与您略有不同。

Now that person theoretically can use Dall-E to output what is inside their head, and they can refine that easily through subsequent prompts in Dall-E or MidJourney, or whatever it may be, and then just say, "Do you like this?

现在这个人理论上可以使用 Dall-E 输出他们头脑中的内容，并且他们可以通过 Dall-E 或 MidJourney 或其他任何内容中的后续提示轻松地完善它，然后只需说，“你喜欢这个吗？

This is my idea." And so in a way it's helped humans connect more easily in that context than we were capable of doing before, and then in the context of pitching a client on ideas, we are capable of generating more ideas faster and iterating upon them live.

这是我的想法。”因此，在某种程度上，它帮助人类在这种情况下比以前更容易地进行联系，然后在向客户推销想法的情况下，我们能够更快地产生更多想法并实时迭代它们。

So I can have a Zoom call with you, I can present my screen, and if you don't like the output of Dall-E that I just prompted, I can re-prompt based on your feedback in real time.

这样我就可以和你进行 Zoom 通话，我可以展示我的屏幕，如果你不喜欢我刚刚提示的 Dall-E 输出，我可以根据你的实时反馈重新提示。

Lenny: There's this sentiment that AIs going to take away the fun stuff of jobs, like maybe being creative and coming up with a new concept and photography, setting up a whole photo shoot, whatever.

莱尼：有一种观点认为，人工智能将夺走工作中的乐趣，比如发挥创造力、提出新概念和摄影、拍摄整个照片等等。

Lenny: Do you find that your team is excited about uploading this to Dall-E, or are they just like, goddammit, this is what I loved, and now I'm just sitting around in docs writing prompts.

Lenny：你是否发现你的团队对将其上传到 Dall-E 感到兴奋，或者他们只是想，该死，这就是我喜欢的，而现在我只是坐在文档中编写提示。

Jonathan Becker: I am not an incredible artist, but now I can take those thoughts in my mind and output them just as well as someone who's pretty skilled in artwork.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我不是一个令人难以置信的艺术家，但现在我可以将这些想法记在脑海中并将其输出，就像艺术方面非常熟练的人一样。

So in a sense, I'm excited because this technology democratizes the ability to do this across everyone.

所以从某种意义上说，我很兴奋，因为这项技术使每个人都能做到这一点。

Anyone who can think a thought can generate an image on an AI image generator.

任何有想法的人都可以在人工智能图像生成器上生成图像。

How many scribes do you know?

你认识多少个文士？

Jonathan Becker: Because we invented something called the printing press, and the printing press took over what was a cottage industry for very specific individuals that allowed them to control the flow of information.

乔纳森·贝克尔：因为我们发明了一种叫做印刷机的东西，而印刷机接管了非常特定的个人的家庭手工业，使他们能够控制信息的流动。

Yet today it's not like we have fewer writers or creative thinkers, they're just using different tools to arrive at the same place.

然而今天，我们的作家或创造性思想家并不是减少了，他们只是使用不同的工具来达到同一个目标。

You could say the same thing of the loom.

你可以对织机说同样的话。

There used to be people who would stitch your T-shirt together, or your sweater together, and none of those people have work anymore.

曾经有人会把你的 T 恤缝在一起，或者把你的毛衣缝在一起，但这些人都没有工作了。

There's still people who knit, I suppose.

我想仍然有人在编织。

But your clothes are made in factories with machines, and the quality of the clothing is arguably a lot better than it was, maybe I'm wrong about that point, but you can make more of it and more sophisticated clothing.

但是你的衣服是在工厂里用机器制造的，而且衣服的质量可以说比以前好很多，也许我在这一点上是错的，但你可以制造更多的东西，制作更精致的衣服。

Jonathan Becker: There's no question that AI is going to displace and replace certain industries of people, certain roles.

乔纳森·贝克尔：毫无疑问，人工智能将取代某些行业的人员、某些角色。

I'm not going to pretend like I know whether that's a good or bad thing, and I'm also not a poster child for AI, I am really just using the technology that's available to us to run our business the best way we can.

我不会假装我知道这是好事还是坏事，而且我也不是人工智能的典型代表，我实际上只是利用我们现有的技术以最好的方式经营我们的业务。

We haven't let anybody go yet because of these efficiencies.

由于这些效率，我们还没有让任何人离开。

The people who used to do the artwork are the ones using these tools, and I think they're excited that they're more productive.

过去从事艺术创作的人就是使用这些工具的人，我认为他们很高兴自己的工作效率提高了。

Is there going to be nuance around that?

这会有细微差别吗？

Of course.

当然。

Are some people going to be sad about the changes?

有些人会对这些变化感到悲伤吗？

Yes.

是的。

I think human nature is that people generally don't like change, but I think over time we've seen change has been a productive and positive thing for society, not a negative thing.

我认为人性是人们通常不喜欢改变，但我认为随着时间的推移，我们已经看到改变对社会来说是一件富有成效和积极的事情，而不是一件消极的事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Yeah, so it sounds like the team is excited, generally, and that's a good sign, and that's what I find generally.

是的，听起来团队总体上很兴奋，这是一个好兆头，这也是我的总体看法。

I think some people will be really upset, but most people will be like, amazing, and they never wanted to do this part.

我认为有些人会非常沮丧，但大多数人会觉得，太棒了，他们从来不想做这一部分。

Jonathan Becker: This generation of people will be upset, and then there will be a subsequent generation that never knew anything different.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这一代人将会感到不安，然后下一代人将永远不知道有什么不同。

So the way that I think about this is the people growing up these days have always had the internet, whereas you and I probably remember a time before the internet existed.

所以我的想法是，现在长大的人们一直都有互联网，而你和我可能还记得互联网存在之前的一段时间。

AI-

人工智能-

Jonathan Becker: You and I probably remember a time before the internet existed.

乔纳森·贝克尔：你和我可能还记得互联网出现之前的一段时光。

AI is a platform like the internet and just as when the internet was launched, you couldn't conceive of amazon.com or all of these wonderful or social networks or whatever it was.

人工智能是一个像互联网一样的平台，就像互联网刚推出时一样，你无法想象亚马逊或所有这些精彩的社交网络或其他任何东西。

The permutations of what AI will become, even in the current GPT 4 context or Dolly context or whatever it may be.

即使在当前的 GPT 4 环境或 Dolly 环境或任何可能的环境中，人工智能也会发生变化。

We don't know what people are going to create with this and so it's difficult for the generation that knew what life was like beforehand, before iPhone, before internet, before AI, but there will be people who know nothing but this eventually, and to them it'll just be normal.

我们不知道人们会用它创造什么，所以对于那些在 iPhone 之前、互联网之前、人工智能之前知道生活是什么样子的一代人来说是很困难的，但最终会有人除了这些之外一无所知，对他们来说这将是正常的。

Lenny: Until we're all just replaced by AI and then it's AI writing ads to get other AI tools to buy products from each other.

莱尼：直到我们都被人工智能取代，然后人工智能才会编写广告，让其他人工智能工具互相购买产品。

Lenny: And then we're just sitting around watching Netflix and that'll be great.

莱尼：然后我们就坐在一起看 Netflix，那就太好了。

There's always this question when you're starting to invest in paid growth, performance marketing of should we work at an agency?

当您开始投资付费增长、绩效营销时，总会有这样的问题：我们应该在代理机构工作吗？

Should we work?

我们应该工作吗？

Should we hire someone junior to figure it out?

我们应该聘请初级人员来解决这个问题吗？

Should we hire someone senior?

我们应该聘请资深人士吗？

Lenny: What's your general advice for, say, an early stage startup when it makes sense to work with an agency versus bringing someone in-house?

莱尼：对于处于早期阶段的初创公司来说，当与代理机构合作而不是内部聘请某人更有意义时，您的一般建议是什么？

Jonathan Becker: Mm-hmm.

乔纳森·贝克尔：嗯嗯。

We need people in-house to do our jobs properly.

我们需要内部人员来做好我们的工作。

Agencies are not mutually exclusive to personnel in-house.

机构与内部人员并不相互排斥。

If we don't have a point of contact, for instance, at an earlier stage company and we're supposed to report to the CEO, CEOs tend to be very busy people and we often just can't get the information and approvals that we need to be successful.

例如，如果我们没有联络点，在早期阶段的公司，我们应该向首席执行官报告，首席执行官往往是非常忙碌的人，我们常常无法获得成功所需的信息和批准。

If you think that growth marketing is an opportunity and that performance marketing is a subset of growth marketing that you want some focus on, the reality is you're going to need expertise and you probably should start in-house and then hire an agency.

如果您认为增长营销是一个机会，而绩效营销是您想要重点关注的增长营销的一个子集，那么现实是您将需要专业知识，并且您可能应该从内部开始，然后聘请代理机构。

Jonathan Becker: Again, there's different stages of companies and different examples of what makes sense at different stages and the nature of the work that we do at different stages changes.

乔纳森·贝克尔：同样，公司有不同的阶段，不同的例子说明在不同阶段什么是有意义的，我们在不同阶段所做的工作性质也会发生变化。

Very, very late stage, we're kind of doing a lot of this sophisticated production work.

在非常非常后期的阶段，我们正在做很多复杂的制作工作。

We're implementing sophisticated testing, we're working on attribution, we're building beautiful reporting, but in a sense, we're maintaining this machine that already exists.

我们正在实施复杂的测试，我们正在研究归因，我们正在构建漂亮的报告，但从某种意义上说，我们正在维护这台已经存在的机器。

Earlier stage, we're doing a lot more of net new experimentation, trying to discover what is working and what sequence of audience targeting versus creative asset display will work, what channel mix works, and all of that.

早期阶段，我们正在进行更多的净新实验，试图发现什么是有效的，受众定位与创意资产显示的顺序是什么，什么渠道组合有效，等等。

A lot of times the body of work that's required to nail that and the inputs to literally out front what questions to be asking isn't something that a small in-house team possesses and so they will work with an agency to scale faster, to get where they're going quicker, to bring in more resources quickly, basically.

很多时候，解决这个问题所需的工作以及提出要问的问题的投入并不是一个小型内部团队所拥有的，因此他们将与一个机构合作，以更快地扩展规模，更快地到达他们想要的目标，基本上快速引入更多资源。

Then later stage, sometimes it's a permutation of the same thing or we're really just managing a whole bunch of different capabilities that they have because it's very complicated and difficult to staff.

然后到了后期，有时这是同一件事的排列，或者我们实际上只是管理他们拥有的一大堆不同的能力，因为它非常复杂且难以配备。

Lenny: That is really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

So it's not like agency versus in-house full-time person.

所以这不像代理机构与内部全职人员。

It's you need both is what you're finding.

您所发现的正是您所需要的。

Jonathan Becker: I don't think we have any projects that we're working on where there's not a professional marketing person as our POC and generally the people that we report to have a background in what we do, whether they ended up doing something different and now they're a VP or a director level and not directly managing channels themselves is one thing or another.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：我认为我们正在开展的任何项目都没有专业的营销人员作为我们的 POC，而且一般来说，我们报告的人员具有我们所做工作的背景，无论他们最终做了一些不同的事情，现在他们是副总裁还是总监级别，而不是直接管理渠道本身是一回事。

But yeah, we work with people that have in-house expertise all day long.

但是，是的，我们整天与拥有内部专业知识的人一起工作。

Lenny: I see.

莱尼：我明白了。

Sometimes it could just be a generalist marketing person that becomes your point of contact.

有时，可能只是一位通才营销人员成为您的联系人。

Lenny: They don't have to be experienced in paper.

莱尼：他们不必有纸质经验。

Jonathan Becker: There's one more thing.

乔纳森·贝克尔：还有一件事。

As agencies, we're constantly solving people's problems in the market and as a result of that, I have a fairly large team of 130 people that think about performance marketing all day long.

作为代理机构，我们不断地解决人们在市场上的问题，因此，我拥有一个由 130 人组成的相当大的团队，他们整天都在思考效果营销。

It's the first thing we think about when we have our morning coffee and it's the last thing we think about as we're leaving the office kind of thing.

这是我们早上喝咖啡时想到的第一件事，也是我们离开办公室时想到的最后一件事。

We have very sophisticated and built out capabilities as well as all kinds of software and processes and capabilities, I guess, that we've created that most in-house teams just don't have because they're smaller or newer or someone might be really sophisticated but they don't have the resources to implement it and stuff.

我想，我们拥有非常复杂的内置功能以及各种软件、流程和功能，我们创建了大多数内部团队所不具备的功能，因为它们规模较小或较新，或者有人可能非常复杂，但他们没有资源来实现它和其他东西。

In the same way that a really sophisticated organization might go to Boston Consulting Group or McKenzie to say, "Hey, we did this, but you do more of this all day long and we need advice on how to be more efficient," people come to Thrive saying, "Hey, we're top of our game.

就像一个非常复杂的组织可能会去波士顿咨询集团或麦肯齐说，“嘿，我们做到了，但你整天都做更多这样的事情，我们需要如何提高效率的建议，”人们来到 Thrive 说，“嘿，我们是我们的游戏中的佼佼者。

We have really strong people.

我们有非常坚强的人。

They absolutely know what they're doing," which is always the case by the way, "But we're looking for extra sophistication and additional capabilities that are very difficult to create in an in-house organization." It's why we worked with Uber for 10 years.

他们绝对知道自己在做什么，”顺便说一句，情况总是如此，“但我们正在寻找额外的复杂性和额外的功能，而这些在内部组织中很难创建。”这就是我们与 Uber 合作 10 年的原因。

It was tough to replace us.

取代我们是很困难的。

Lenny: Yeah, that's quite the retention.

莱尼：是的，这是相当大的保留率。

10 years, 10 years going, I imagine our net dollar retention has gone up too.

十年，十年过去了，我想我们的净美元保留率也有所上升。

Lenny: When you're looking to hire someone full-time to drive the paid growth channel and/or work with an agency, what do you recommend people look for specifically, especially things maybe they're not likely to think about when they're hiring someone that people often miss?

莱尼：当你想聘请全职人员来推动付费增长渠道和/或与代理机构合作时，你建议人们具体寻找什么，特别是当他们雇用人们经常错过的人时，他们可能不太可能考虑的事情？

Jonathan Becker: There's a couple of competencies that I think are very important.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我认为有一些能力非常重要。

I found that, so I was a nerd as a child, if you can't tell, I don't know.

我发现了这一点，所以我小时候是个书呆子，如果你看不出来，我不知道。

Jonathan Becker: Super nerdy, geeky kid.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：超级书呆子、极客孩子。

I would take apart-

我会拆开-

Jonathan Becker: I would take apart my parents' computers, I'd try and rebuild them.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我会拆开父母的电脑，然后尝试重建它们。

I was fooling around with bulletin boards before websites existed, stuff like that.

在网站出现之前，我就在玩公告板之类的东西。

Then I became a web developer and as I transitioned into a performance marketing role, I realized that being technical and having technical aptitudes was extraordinarily helpful in terms of being on the front line of what we were doing and solving problems.

然后我成为一名网络开发人员，当我转变为绩效营销角色时，我意识到技术和技术能力对于站在我们正在做的事情的第一线和解决问题方面非常有帮助。

If you're making your first hire, you probably want them to have the ingenuity and capability to solve a lot of the problems that you're going to run into within the context of tracking, attribution, data visualization, and then campaign management.

如果您正在招聘第一个员工，您可能希望他们拥有独创性和能力来解决您将在跟踪、归因、数据可视化和活动管理方面遇到的许多问题。

Number one, do they have a technical background?

第一，他们有技术背景吗？

That can be multidisciplinary.

这可能是多学科的。

Jonathan Becker: At Thrive, we have someone who is a nuclear physicist that left discipline and became a performance marketer.

乔纳森·贝克尔：在 Thrive，我们有一位核物理学家，他放弃了纪律，成为了一名绩效营销人员。

We have people who have left mathematics and become performance marketers, people who left finance, full stack engineering, all kinds of stuff.

我们有些人离开了数学，成为了绩效营销人员，有些人离开了金融、全栈工程等各种领域。

Those are technical fields where people tend to be good at math and good at problem solving, and so that's a strong piece of evidence that they might have a strong aptitude for performance marketing and managing this.

在这些技术领域，人们往往擅长数学和解决问题，因此这是一个强有力的证据，表明他们可能具有很强的绩效营销和管理能力。

Jonathan Becker: Another thing is just literally do they have experience in this discipline?

乔纳森·贝克尔：另一件事是他们在这方面有经验吗？

Have they managed on any level Meta ads, Google ads, TikTok, Amazon, some of the things we talked about?

他们是否在任何层面上管理过元广告、谷歌广告、TikTok、亚马逊以及我们讨论过的一些东西？

Do they have an appreciation for some of the inputs that we just discussed today that ultimately create the conditions for success within a performance marketing environment?

他们是否欣赏我们今天刚刚讨论的一些投入，这些投入最终为绩效营销环境中的成功创造了条件？

Do they understand the role of creative?

他们了解创意的作用吗？

Do they understand the role of proper attribution and are they capable of understanding the mechanics of your business and so on and so forth?

他们是否了解正确归因的作用，是否有能力了解您的业务机制等等？

Jonathan Becker: I would say just fundamentally, those are some of the areas that when we are interviewing we're looking for.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我想说的是，从根本上来说，这些是我们在面试时寻找的一些领域。

As an agency too, we are looking for the ability to work with people and be excellent at client services.

作为一家代理机构，我们也在寻找与人合作并擅长客户服务的能力。

One of the questions we might ask, I actually borrowed a Jeff Bezos question from early stage Amazon where I asked people without much warning in an interview, I'll ask them whether it's okay to do a bit of a thought experiment together and whether they are comfortable responding to a logic question.

我们可能会问的问题之一，实际上我借用了早期亚马逊的杰夫·贝佐斯的问题，我在采访中没有太多警告的情况下问人们，我会问他们是否可以一起做一些思想实验，以及他们是否愿意回答逻辑问题。

I'll ask the question of, "How many windows are there in New York City?" There's two things that I look for in this scenario.

我会问这样的问题：“纽约市有多少个窗户？”在这个场景中我需要寻找两件事。

One is can they think on their feet?

一是他们能独立思考吗？

I'm not actually looking for the correct answer.

我实际上并不是在寻找正确的答案。

It's a pretty difficult question to solve.

这是一个很难解决的问题。

But number one, do you realize that windows are not just building windows and windows are also in cars and trucks and stuff like that, so there's more than one type of window.

但第一，您是否意识到窗户不仅是建筑物的窗户，汽车和卡车等物品中也有窗户，因此窗户的类型不止一种。

Then can you just do the arithmetic of saying there's so many buildings per hectare or square mile or whatever it is and it's division multiplication type stuff.

然后你可以做算术，说每公顷或每平方英里有这么多建筑物或任何东西，它是除法乘法类型的东西。

Jonathan Becker: But also from a client services point of view, I'm trying to see whether in a scenario where I've asked them something that they obviously probably weren't prepared for, that is a strange thing to ask and probably makes them feel a little bit uncomfortable, how they react in that situation.

乔纳森·贝克尔：但同样从客户服务的角度来看，我试图了解在我问他们一些他们显然可能没有准备好的事情的情况下，这是否是一件奇怪的事情，可能会让他们感到有点不舒服，他们在这种情况下的反应如何。

Do they remain composed or do they lose their composure and get frustrated or even angry that I asked them something that's pretty weird to ask?

他们会保持镇定，还是会因为我问他们一些很奇怪的问题而失去镇定并感到沮丧甚至生气？

Their reaction there is often a good leading indicator of whether or not in a client scenario working with our clients, they can compose themselves in a difficult situation.

他们的反应通常是一个很好的先行指标，表明在与我们的客户合作的客户场景中，他们是否可以在困难的情况下保持镇静。

Lenny: Very tactically, what level of experience do you recommend people look for in their first performance marketing hire year or two, four or five years, longer?

莱尼：从战术上讲，您建议人们在第一次绩效营销雇用一年或两年、四年或五年或更长时间时寻找什么水平的经验？

Jonathan Becker: I've seen people who have 10 years of experience in the industry not be that great and then I've seen people who have one year of experience be absolutely phenomenal.

乔纳森·贝克尔（Jonathan Becker）：我见过在该行业拥有 10 年经验的人并不是那么出色，但我也见过拥有一年经验的人绝对是非凡的。

I would say that again, the years of service under their belt is one clue or piece of evidence to their potential aptitude.

我想再说一遍，他们的服务年限是他们潜在能力的一条线索或证据。

But really, you want someone who can clearly demonstrate to you that they can competently run the channels I suppose.

但实际上，您需要一个能够向您清楚地证明他们能够胜任我认为的渠道运营的人。

If what you're asking is literally at the level where someone is managing pay per click and programmatic media buying, then you want to make sure that they can just do that and I would say it's less about the years of experience.

如果您所要求的实际上是某人管理每次点击付费和程序化媒体购买的水平，那么您希望确保他们能够做到这一点，我想说这与多年的经验无关。

A lot of times people only want to do those types of jobs for a couple years before they're like, "Hey, what's your plan for me?

很多时候，人们只想做这些类型的工作几年，然后他们就会说：“嘿，你对我有什么计划吗？

I'm tired of running ads and building campaigns.

我厌倦了投放广告和开展活动。

I want to manage the people who do that now." The people who tend to really do that are often somewhat earlier on in their careers.

我想管理现在这样做的人。”真正愿意这样做的人往往处于职业生涯的早期。

That's just a reality that we see.

这只是我们看到的现实。

Lenny: One more very technical question.

莱尼：还有一个非常技术性的问题。

What do you recommend the title for this role be?

您建议这个角色的标题是什么？

Growth marketer, something else?

增长营销人员，还有其他吗？

Jonathan Becker: I've seen so many different names for this.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我见过很多不同的名字。

I think again, if the intention is to grow out a growth marketing capability, which again is not exclusive to performance marketing, then you're looking for a manager role of growth marketing manager.

我再次认为，如果目的是培养增长营销能力（这又不限于绩效营销），那么您正在寻找增长营销经理的经理角色。

I've seen paid acquisition specialist for people who just manage channels.

我见过为只管理渠道的人提供付费获取专家。

I've seen paid acquisition manager, performance marketing manager, media planner and buyer.

我见过付费收购经理、绩效营销经理、媒体策划师和采购员。

I've seen all kinds of different roles.

我见过各种不同的角色。

But when we are launching a new role these days, there's such wonderful tools like everything from Glassdoor to LinkedIn to PayScale where you can essentially just look at what other people are calling it and borrow from their role descriptions and then create your own role description and then determine what role is meaningful in the context of your own organization.

但是，当我们现在推出一个新角色时，有很多很棒的工具，从 Glassdoor 到 LinkedIn 到 PayScale，您基本上只需看看其他人如何称呼它并借鉴他们的角色描述，然后创建您自己的角色描述，然后确定什么角色在您自己的组织环境中有意义。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

We started with the story of how you landed Uber, and I know you also have an interesting story which I haven't heard of how you landed Snap/Snapchat as a client, so maybe tell that story.

我们从您如何获得 Uber 的故事开始，我知道您还有一个有趣的故事，但我还没有听说过您如何获得 Snap/Snapchat 作为客户，所以也许可以讲一下这个故事。

Jonathan Becker: It's a fun story and I think it's about ultimately confidence and knowing your craft.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这是一个有趣的故事，我认为这是关于最终的信心和了解你的手艺。

I believe it was like 2015 or 2016, we were essentially contacted to participate in an RFP down in Los Angeles.

我相信就像 2015 年或 2016 年，我们基本上被联系参加洛杉矶的 RFP。

RFPs are difficult processes and essentially a department of a company is saying, "We want performance marketing and here are all the questions that we're going to ask you and exercises you need to complete in order to vet you as to whether you are the right partner or not." Sometimes RFPs are incredibly thoughtful and they're run by people who have either done a lot of RFPs in the context of what we do or they know specifically what the outcome is.

RFP 是一个困难的过程，本质上是公司的一个部门在说：“我们想要绩效营销，这里有我们要问您的所有问题以及您需要完成的练习，以便审核您是否是合适的合作伙伴。”有时 RFP 考虑得非常周到，并且由那些在我们所做的事情中做过大量 RFP 的人管理，或者他们具体知道结果是什么。

Then in other cases, they're very experienced marketing departments with senior people and an approach that they may take is every stakeholder within that department gets to submit one or two questions to a long list of questions and the respondents have to respond to all of this.

然后在其他情况下，他们是经验丰富的营销部门，拥有资深人员，他们可能采取的方法是该部门内的每个利益相关者都可以向一长串问题提交一两个问题，而受访者必须回答所有这些问题。

Jonathan Becker: The RFP process for Snap was somewhat complex and they asked a range of different questions and we find ourselves in LA at a hotel the night before, it's 2:00 in the morning, my business partner and another team member that we had brought down are sweating and we're like, "How are we going to build a presentation out of this?

Jonathan Becker：Snap 的 RFP 流程有些复杂，他们提出了一系列不同的问题，我们发现自己在前一天晚上在洛杉矶的一家酒店，当时是凌晨 2:00，我的业务合作伙伴和我们打倒的另一位团队成员都在冒汗，我们想，“我们如何以此为基础制作一个演示文稿？

They're asking so many well-meaning but difficult questions that are zigging and zagging." In a pitch situation you want to tell a story, it's important, and that story has to have a beginning, middle, and end.

他们问了很多善意但又困难的问题，这些问题都是曲折的。”在推销情况下，你想讲一个故事，这很重要，而且这个故事必须有开头、中间和结尾。

It was just difficult and yet here we were and we had worked with all these really cool organizations and I was very confident that we knew precisely what we were doing.

这很困难，但我们在这里，我们与所有这些非常酷的组织合作，我非常有信心我们确切地知道我们在做什么。

I kind of had this eureka moment where I was like, "Here's what we're going to do." It was Brent MacArthur, my business partner and I kind of arrived at this together, but we're kind of like, "Here's what we're going to do.

我灵机一动，心想：“这就是我们要做的事情。”布伦特·麦克阿瑟（Brent MacArthur），我的商业伙伴和我一起达成了这个目标，但我们有点像，“这就是我们要做的事情。

We're going to have a completely unique take on how to respond to this and we're going to build a deck that's bespoke around X, Y, and Z."

我们将采取完全独特的方式来应对这一问题，并且我们将围绕 X、Y 和 Z 打造一套定制的牌组。”

Jonathan Becker: We work till 6:00 in the morning, I think we get a couple hours of sleep and then by 10:00, we're sitting in their offices.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我们工作到早上 6:00，我想我们会睡几个小时，然后到 10:00，我们就坐在他们的办公室里。

Essentially the pitch is something like this.

本质上，音高是这样的。

I stand there in front of about 20 different executives from their organization and I say, "You have thoughtfully curated an RFP for us to respond to today, and you have asked us to respond to about 20 to 30 different questions.

我站在他们组织中大约 20 名不同的高管面前，我说：“你们精心策划了一份 RFP 供我们今天回应，并且你们要求我们回应大约 20 到 30 个不同的问题。

With the utmost respect, I am not going to answer any of your questions today.

谨致以最崇高的敬意，今天我不会回答你们的任何问题。

I'm standing here because you are looking for a marketing partner and you need expertise in this area and instead of telling you the answers to the questions that you asked, I'm going to tell you what I think you need to do to get where you want to go and if you agree with me and my logic and what I talk to you about here today, then you should hire us.

我站在这里是因为您正在寻找营销合作伙伴并且您需要该领域的专业知识，我不会告诉您所问问题的答案，而是告诉您我认为您需要做什么才能到达您想要去的地方，如果您同意我和我的逻辑以及我今天在这里与您谈论的内容，那么您应该雇用我们。

If you do not agree with my logic and you think that we're out to lunch, then you should not hire us."

如果你不同意我的逻辑，并且认为我们是出去吃午饭，那么你就不应该雇用我们。”

Jonathan Becker: You could hear a pin drop in the room.

乔纳森·贝克尔：你可以听到一根针掉在房间里的声音。

My own team I think was a little bit surprised.

我认为我自己的团队有点惊讶。

We had a whole bunch of technical difficulties that day.

那天我们遇到了很多技术困难。

Someone who was supposed to Zoom in couldn't make it and so I have to ad lib part of the pitch that I wasn't prepared for, lots of zig and zags.

本来应该放大的人却没能做到，所以我不得不即兴表演我没有准备好的部分，很多曲折。

They thank us for RFP response, lots of handshakes and smiling faces, but we don't know whether we're going to land the client or not.

他们感谢我们对 RFP 的回应、多次握手和笑脸，但我们不知道我们是否会赢得客户。

Jonathan Becker: Then about two hours later, I was driving to San Francisco with a friend, immediately leave LA for SF because I had a bunch of follow on meetings, and I get a phone call and they were like, "We loved your approach.

乔纳森·贝克尔：大约两个小时后，我和一个朋友开车去旧金山，立即离开洛杉矶前往旧金山，因为我有很多后续会议，我接到一个电话，他们说，“我们喜欢你的方法。

Congratulations.

恭喜。

You're hired."

你被录用了。”

Jonathan Becker: These days I think Snap is still a really interesting organization, but at the time they were kind of bringing the future of a social platform or what a social platform could be in the same way that we think about TikTok right now.

乔纳森·贝克尔：现在我认为 Snap 仍然是一个非常有趣的组织，但当时他们有点像我们现在对 TikTok 的看法一样，带来了社交平台的未来或者社交平台的未来。

TikTok wasn't on the scene yet and Facebook was very worried about Snap and there was tons of engagement on Snap, so this was the it client of the day and it felt amazing.

TikTok 还没有出现，Facebook 非常担心 Snap，而且 Snap 上有大量的参与度，所以这是当时的 IT 客户端，感觉棒极了。

Jonathan Becker: Essentially the lesson was that you have to trust yourself and understand your strengths and weaknesses.

乔纳森·贝克尔：本质上，这个教训是你必须相信自己并了解自己的优势和劣势。

In situations where someone is well-meaning but may not understand what they need, be brave and tell them what they need rather than just conforming to what they're asking for because sometimes inadvertently that leads you down the wrong path.

当某人善意但可能不明白他们需要什么时，请勇敢地告诉他们他们需要什么，而不是仅仅满足他们的要求，因为有时会无意中导致你走上错误的道路。

We took a big risk and it had a wonderful payoff and we have, in addition to this story, we had a wonderful relationship with them for a couple years.

我们冒了很大的风险，但也得到了丰厚的回报，除了这个故事之外，我们还与他们建立了几年良好的关系。

Lenny: I love that story.

莱尼：我喜欢这个故事。

I love how dramatic all your new customers, your way of acquiring customers and I imagine not all of them are this dramatic.

我喜欢你们所有新客户的戏剧性，以及你们获取客户的方式，我想并不是所有的新客户都这么戏剧性。

Jonathan Becker: Not all of them are this dramatic, but there have been some pretty dramatic ones.

乔纳森·贝克尔：并不是所有的事情都这么戏剧化，但有一些非常戏剧化。

I think part of running a business and running an agency has been the curation and experience around all these fun, crazy stories that have accumulated as we run this really interesting services business.

我认为经营企业和经营代理机构的一部分就是围绕所有这些有趣、疯狂的故事进行策划和体验，这些故事是我们在经营这个非常有趣的服务业务时积累的。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready for the lightning round?

你准备好迎接闪电回合了吗？

Lenny: Okay, great Looking, very excited.

莱尼：好的，看起来很棒，非常兴奋。

Okay, first question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

好的，第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jonathan Becker: As a marketer, Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks is a wonderful book.

乔纳森·贝克尔：作为一名营销人员，马修·迪克斯的《值得讲故事》是一本很棒的书。

He is a world world-class storyteller.

他是一位世界级的故事讲述者。

I don't know if you know him.

我不知道你是否认识他。

He wrote this book about how to structure and think about the art of storytelling and every marketer should read Storyworthy.

他写了这本书，讲述如何构建和思考讲故事的艺术，每个营销人员都应该阅读《Storyworthy》。

It was a huge contributor to how I think about what we do at Thrive.

这对我如何看待我们在 Thrive 所做的事情做出了巨大的贡献。

As an entrepreneur, I love startup stories, so Shoe Dog, which is the startup story of Nike.

作为一名企业家，我喜欢创业故事，所以 Shoe Dog，这是耐克的创业故事。

It's basically Phil Knight talking about all the ups and downs, and it's crazy.

这基本上是菲尔·奈特在谈论所有的起起落落，这太疯狂了。

Nike shouldn't be a company based on all the turmoil and challenges that they overcame.

耐克不应该成为一家建立在克服所有动荡和挑战的基础上的公司。

Fascinating read about taking risk and doing what you think is right and ultimately succeeding and building Nike.

这是一本关于承担风险、做你认为正确的事情并最终取得成功并打造耐克的精彩读物。

Then a book by Nick Bilton called American Kingpin, which is the story of the startup of the Silk Road, which was like this dark web marketplace for some pretty bad stuff.

然后是尼克·比尔顿（Nick Bilton）写的一本名为《美国金品》（American Kingpin）的书，讲述了丝绸之路初创的故事，就像这个暗网市场，出售一些非常糟糕的东西。

But it is half tech story, startup story and half gangster kind of kingpin story.

但这一半是科技故事，一半是创业故事，一半是黑帮头目故事。

It honestly should be a Hollywood movie.

老实说，这应该是一部好莱坞电影。

It reads like a Hollywood thriller.

读起来就像一部好莱坞惊悚片。

So awesome, great book.

太棒了，很棒的书。

Lenny: Favorite recent movie or a TV show.

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目。

Jonathan Becker: I don't know how recent it is, but I love The Big Short, just love it.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我不知道它有多新，但我喜欢《大空头》，就是喜欢它。

Lenny: Not recent at all, but it's still great.

莱尼：一点也不新，但仍然很棒。

Jonathan Becker: It's still great.

乔纳森·贝克尔：仍然很棒。

The reason why I like it is because someone found truth in the data they were analyzing and then capitalized on it, which is really an analog for what we do in performance marketing.

我喜欢它的原因是因为有人在他们分析的数据中发现了真相，然后利用它，这实际上类似于我们在绩效营销中所做的事情。

Then recently I have fallen in love with White Lotus for no particular reason.

然后最近我就无缘无故地爱上了白莲花。

It's just raw entertainment.

这只是原始的娱乐。

Lenny: What's something you've changed in the way that you all operate that's been relatively minor in terms of how hard it was to change, but that had a tremendous impact on your ability to execute as a team or a company?

Lenny：你们的运营方式有什么改变，虽然就改变的难度而言相对较小，但对你们作为团队或公司的执行能力产生了巨大影响？

Jonathan Becker: The tools that we use in performance marketing change constantly.

乔纳森·贝克尔：我们在效果营销中使用的工具不断变化。

The channels themselves change and therefore what problems exist and what SaaS companies or different types of platforms offer as solutions to problems change.

渠道本身发生了变化，因此存在哪些问题以及 SaaS 公司或不同类型的平台提供的解决方案也发生了变化。

I don't think it's one thing necessarily, this might be a bit of a roundabout answer here, but I mentioned that change itself earlier is something that humans seem to not love, whereas in our industry, and I don't think we're alone here, but there's a culture of change.

我认为这不一定是一件事，这可能是一个有点迂回的答案，但我之前提到过，人类似乎不喜欢变革本身，而在我们的行业中，我认为我们并不孤单，但有一种变革文化。

A welcoming of change, aptitude around change, having a playful mindset with new technology and tools rather than being upset about the fact that AI exists or third party cookies are being deprecated or iOS 14 removed IDFA and trying to be creative around those types of solutions has been like a constant for us.

对变化的欢迎，对变化的适应能力，对新技术和工具抱有一种有趣的心态，而不是因为人工智能的存在或第三方cookie被弃用或iOS 14删除了IDFA而感到不安，并尝试围绕这些类型的解决方案发挥创造力，这对我们来说就像是一个不变的事情。

I'm kind of sidestepping the question a little bit, but it is the cultural willingness to adapt that I think has been a strong suit for us as a company.

我有点回避了这个问题，但我认为适应文化的意愿对我们公司来说是非常适合的。

Lenny: Speaking of tools, final question.

Lenny：说到工具，最后一个问题。

What is your favorite most underrated tool for performance marketing work?

您最喜欢的、最被低估的效果营销工具是什么？

Jonathan Becker: It's Thrive Stack.

乔纳森·贝克尔：这是 Thrive Stack。

It's a tool that we built in-house that allows us to pipe third party data and anonymized customer level data into a database and then ultimately visualize it in a format like Data Studio, Google Data Studio, which I think now is called Looker Studio.

这是我们内部构建的一个工具，允许我们将第三方数据和匿名客户级数据传输到数据库中，然后最终以 Data Studio、Google Data Studio 等格式将其可视化，我认为现在称为 Looker Studio。

That has been a profoundly powerful platform from which we're capable of delivering insights that are built upon the data as opposed to just regurgitated data, if that makes sense.

这是一个非常强大的平台，我们能够通过该平台提供基于数据的见解，而不仅仅是重复的数据（如果有意义的话）。

We have not released this technology yet.

我们还没有发布这项技术。

It's basically a tool we use in-house with our clients.

它基本上是我们与客户内部使用的工具。

But to a certain extent, I mentioned Supermetrics, which is another ETL and has some of the same capabilities but isn't quite as powerful.

但在某种程度上，我提到了 Supermetrics，它是另一个 ETL，具有一些相同的功能，但没有那么强大。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Jonathan, this is by far the deepest I've ever gone into the world of paid growth.

乔纳森，这是迄今为止我对付费增长世界最深入的了解。

I really appreciate you making time and sharing all of your wisdom with us.

我真的很感谢您抽出时间与我们分享您所有的智慧。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out, ask some questions maybe, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想了解更多信息、伸出援手、问一些问题，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Jonathan Becker: Thank you for having me again, by the way.

乔纳森·贝克尔：顺便说一句，谢谢你再次邀请我。

This was a lot of fun.

这很有趣。

I'm available through Thrive, so thrivedigital.com.

您可以通过 Thrive（即 Thrivedigital.com）联系我。

You can contact us through our site by accessing the contact form.

您可以通过我们的网站访问联系表格与我们联系。

Personally, I'm on LinkedIn under my name Jonathan Becker or Twitter, JZBecker.

就我个人而言，我在 LinkedIn 上的名字是 Jonathan Becker，在 Twitter 上的名字是 JZBecker。

Then things that would be interesting from the audience, always looking for feedback in terms of whether people agree or disagree with thoughts and feelings that we have about what we do.

然后是观众感兴趣的事情，总是寻找反馈，看看人们是否同意我们对我们所做的事情的想法和感受。

Obviously always looking for amazing people ultimately to join our team at Thrive.

显然，我们一直在寻找优秀的人才最终加入我们的 Thrive 团队。

If you're a practitioner of growth marketing or performance marketing and you're looking for a top place to spend some time, would love to talk to you.

如果您是增长营销或效果营销的从业者，并且您正在寻找一个消磨时间的最佳场所，我很乐意与您交谈。

Also, I suppose if you need some help making this stuff work within the context of your own organization, we'd love to be at your service.

另外，我想如果您需要一些帮助来使这些东西在您自己的组织中发挥作用，我们很乐意为您服务。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What is the URL again?

网址又是什么？

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

You asked for feedback, be careful what you wish for.

你要求反馈，小心你的愿望。

We get some hilarious C2 comments.

我们收到了一些搞笑的 C2 评论。

We'll see.

我们拭目以待。

We'll see what comes in on this one.

我们将看看这一次会发生什么。

Lenny: Jonathan, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：乔纳森，非常感谢你来到这里。

Jonathan Becker: Pleasure.

乔纳森·贝克尔：很高兴。

Thanks, Lenny.

谢谢，莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。