'Conscious leadership: Unlocking vision, strategy and purpose | JM Nickels (Uber, Waymo, DoorDash)'
John Mark Nickels: Get clear on your objective function, and one way that I've gotten clear on it is trying to think about it from future me because five years from now, I'm not going to give a if I made the presentation slightly better, but I'm going to care a lot about what kind of relationship I have with my daughters, and that means that the next action, the next thing I do today and tomorrow, those will translate into the relationship with her, right?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：明确你的目标函数，我已经明确的一种方式是尝试从未来的我身上思考它，因为五年后，我不会给出一个如果我的演示稍微好一点，但我会非常关心我和我女儿们的关系，这意味着下一步行动，我今天和明天做的下一件事，这些将转化为与她的关系，对吧？
Not to be morbid, but just again, most of us just aren't really tuned into an awareness that our lives will come to an end.
并不是病态，但我们大多数人并没有真正意识到我们的生命即将结束。
We try to pretend like we're going to live forever and just not think about it.
我们试图假装我们会永远活着，但只是不去想它。
And the horror of it is that we succeed, right?
可怕的是我们成功了，对吧？
We mostly manage to just go live our life and eat ice cream and go to work and go on vacation and do what we do.
我们大多数时候只是过着自己的生活，吃冰淇淋，去工作，去度假，做我们所做的事情。
To me, an awareness and mindfulness that our lives will come to an end punctuates reality in a way that requires me to rethink my priorities.
对我来说，我们的生命即将结束的意识和正念以一种要求我重新思考我的优先事项的方式强调了现实。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is J.M.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 J.M.
Nickels.
镍。
J.M.
J.M.
has been a product leader at Waymo, DoorDash and Uber.
曾担任 Waymo、DoorDash 和 Uber 的产品负责人。
He's also an engineering manager at Groupon, and before that an equity trader at Getco.
他还是 Groupon 的工程经理，此前是 Getco 的股票交易员。
At Uber, he built and launched the very first version of Uber Pool and then went on to lead the team responsible for the infrastructure and algorithms powering the economic and logistics brain behind Uber's matching and pricing systems.
在 Uber，他构建并推出了 Uber Pool 的第一个版本，然后领导团队负责基础设施和算法，为 Uber 匹配和定价系统背后的经济和物流大脑提供动力。
At DoorDash, he was head of product for DoorDash platform.
在 DoorDash，他担任 DoorDash 平台的产品主管。
At Waymo, he led product for the commercialization of autonomous ride hailing and last mile delivery.
在 Waymo，他领导了自动驾驶叫车和最后一英里交付商业化的产品。
And he recently returned to Uber to lead product for the mobility team.
他最近回到 Uber，领导移动团队的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: This conversation is a unique and beautiful mixture of hard skills, soft skills, tactics, and emotions.
Lenny Rachitsky：这次对话是硬技能、软技能、策略和情感的独特而美妙的结合。
I won't give away too much about the conversation, but this is a powerful one.
我不会透露太多关于这次谈话的内容，但这是一次强有力的谈话。
Tears are shed, stories are shared, and I'm confident you'll become a better leader and human having listened to J.M.'s insights and lessons.
流泪，分享故事，我相信在聆听了 J.M. 的见解和教训后，您将成为更好的领导者和人。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you J.M.
接下来，我为您带来 J.M.
Nickels.
镍。
Lenny Rachitsky: J.M., thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：J.M.，非常感谢您来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
John Mark Nickels: Thank you, Lenny.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：谢谢你，莱尼。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
I'm thrilled to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Really appreciate your dedication to helping product managers improve their craft and up-level.
非常感谢您致力于帮助产品经理提高技术和水平。
We've done a lot of great researches out there for that, and coaching and development, as I'm sure we'll get into, is a passion of mine as well, so we have a lot of shared interests there.
我们为此做了很多很棒的研究，我相信我们会深入研究辅导和发展，这也是我的热情所在，所以我们在那里有很多共同的兴趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, I really appreciate that.
Lenny Rachitsky：哦，我真的很感激。
I want to start with a phrase that came up again and again when I ask people what to talk to you about from your colleagues, and this phrase is conscious leadership.
我想从当我问人们该与你的同事谈论什么时反复出现的一句话开始，这句话就是有意识的领导力。
What is conscious leadership?
什么是有意识的领导？
What does this phrase mean?
这句话是什么意思？
John Mark Nickels: To me, leadership is broadly defined as having influence in the world, and so by that definition, to me, everyone is a leader because we all have influence in some way.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：对我来说，领导力的广义定义是对世界具有影响力，因此根据这个定义，对我来说，每个人都是领导者，因为我们都以某种方式拥有影响力。
It's not about whether you're a manager or not, it's like I have influence on my kids or my partner or my community, or the world, the way I vote, the way I show up.
这与你是否是一名经理无关，这就像我对我的孩子、我的伴侣、我的社区、或者世界、我的投票方式、我的表现方式有影响力。
So we all have influence.
所以我们都有影响力。
We're all co-creating influences of each other.
我们都在共同创造彼此的影响。
So that's the leadership piece.
这就是领导部分。
The conscious piece then is becoming more aware, waking up.
然后，有意识的部分变得更加有意识，苏醒。
To me, it's like learning more about my interior world, what my background is, my biases.
对我来说，这就像更多地了解我的内心世界，我的背景是什么，我的偏见。
We all inherit certain belief systems from our parents or our church or our community, and a lot of times they kind of go unquestioned and then they end up in conflict.
我们都从父母、教会或社区继承了某些信仰体系，很多时候它们没有受到质疑，然后最终陷入冲突。
And so it's really just about becoming more aware and then taking responsibility for the influence that I have.
因此，这实际上只是变得更加了解，然后为我所拥有的影响力承担责任。
So yeah, taking responsibility for my influence in the world.
所以，是的，为我在世界上的影响力负责。
Lenny Rachitsky: As you talk about this, something that came up and something that I thought about as I was preparing for this episode is this idea of soft leadership, the power of soft skills and just how important that is in success.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈到这个问题时，我在准备这一集时想到的一些事情是软领导力、软技能的力量以及它对成功的重要性。
Is there something there that comes up when I say that?
当我这么说的时候，有什么东西出现了吗？
Just the power of soft skills and the importance of those in being successful.
只是软技能的力量以及软技能对于成功的重要性。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, it's, what was it?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，那是什么？
Theodore Roosevelt, speak softly and carry a big stick?
西奥多·罗斯福，说话轻声细语，手里拿着大棒？
Yeah, I think I've evolved in that department.
是的，我想我在那个部门已经进步了。
I think when I was younger in my career, I thought it was really important that we got to show up to the meeting and have the right slides and be the loudest, rightest voice in the room, and that's the way to have influence.
我想，当我职业生涯还年轻的时候，我认为我们必须出席会议并拥有正确的幻灯片并成为房间里最响亮、最正确的声音，这非常重要，这就是产生影响力的方式。
And there's certainly a place for having leadership in a meeting and presenting a point of view and helping guide the narrative, but to me, yeah, I would say I've evolved more towards sitting back.
当然，在会议中发挥领导作用、提出观点并帮助引导叙述是有必要的，但对我来说，是的，我会说我已经更多地倾向于坐下来。
It's also as I've become a more senior leader, I'm aware that there are power dynamics there.
当我成为一名更高级的领导者时，我意识到那里存在权力动态。
There's imbalances where junior folks don't feel as comfortable speaking up or I say something's not a good idea and then, "Well, I don't want to disagree with J.M."
存在着不平衡的情况，初级人员不愿意畅所欲言，或者我说某件事不是一个好主意，然后，“好吧，我不想不同意 J.M.”。
John Mark Nickels: So it's like, back to being more aware of my influence in the world.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以这就像是，回到更加意识到我对世界的影响力。
I really try to spend more time being mindful of that and say, I want to hear from other people first.
我真的试着花更多的时间留意这一点，并说，我想先听听其他人的意见。
I want to create space and I don't need to win the argument in the meeting.
我想创造空间，我不需要在会议中赢得争论。
There can be a follow-up.
可以有后续行动。
It's not like this is my last chance to say something, but that's also more true when you're more senior because when you're more junior, it's like, well, this is the one presentation I have with Dara for the next six months.
这并不是我最后一次发言的机会，但当你资历更高时，情况更是如此，因为当你资历更浅时，这就像是，嗯，这是我在接下来的六个月里与达拉一起做的一次演讲。
I really got to nail it.
我真的必须把它钉牢。
And so the pressure is a little bit different.
所以压力有点不同。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。
Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?
厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？
With all the tools you need in one simple to use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.
Pendo 在一个简单易用的平台中提供了您所需的所有工具，让您可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。
Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.
此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，Pendo 是围绕产品分析构建的，可以了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。
Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.
接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。
Then Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.
然后 Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。
And the new thing in Pendo, session replace, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.
Pendo 中的新功能是会话替换，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。
I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.
如今有超过 10,000 家公司在使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。
Visit pendo.io/lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: P.S.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：P.S.
You want to take your product-led know-how a step further?
您想进一步提升以产品为主导的专业知识吗？
Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by talk product experts and designed to help you grow in advance in your career.
查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由演讲产品专家主持，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中取得进步。
Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/lenny.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the Enterprise Ready Conference, a one-day event in San Francisco, bringing together product and engineering leaders shaping the future of enterprise SaaS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterprise Ready Conference 为您带来，这是在旧金山举行的为期一天的活动，汇聚了塑造企业 SaaS 未来的产品和工程领导者。
The event features a curated list of speakers with direct experience building for the enterprise, including leaders from OpenAI, Vanta, Checkr, Dropbox, and Canva.
此次活动精选了一批具有直接企业建设经验的演讲者名单，其中包括来自 OpenAI、Vanta、Checkr、Dropbox 和 Canva 的领导者。
Topics included advanced identity management, compliance, encryption, and logging.
主题包括高级身份管理、合规性、加密和日志记录。
Essentially, complex features that most enterprise customers require.
本质上，这是大多数企业客户所需的复杂功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're a founder, exec, product manager or engineer tasked with the enterprise roadmap, this conference is for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您是负责制定企业路线图的创始人、执行官、产品经理或工程师，那么这次会议适合您。
You'll get detailed insights from industry leaders that have years of experience navigating the same challenges that you face today.
您将从行业领导者那里获得详细的见解，他们在应对您今天面临的相同挑战方面拥有多年的经验。
And best of all, it's completely free since it's hosted by WorkOS.
最重要的是，它是完全免费的，因为它由 WorkOS 托管。
Spots are filling up quickly.
名额很快就满了。
Make sure to request an invite at enterpriseready.com.
请务必在 enterpriseready.com 上请求邀请。
That's enterpriseready.com.
这就是 enterpriseready.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple of threads I want to follow here, but first, I was thinking as you're talking, when people think Uber and people that work at Uber, I don't think they imagine people like you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想在这里遵循几个线索，但首先，我在想你所说的，当人们想到 Uber 和在 Uber 工作的人时，我认为他们不会想象像你这样的人。
And I know you were there early and then you joined again.
我知道你很早就到了，然后又加入了。
Was that ever like a, "Is this a place for me?" Did you ever go through that struggle or is it just, yeah, I don't know?
这是否就像“这是适合我的地方？”你经历过那种挣扎吗？或者只是，是的，我不知道？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would say I have been fortunate to experience probably three Ubers at this point.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯（John Mark Nickels）：是的，是的，我的意思是，我想说我很幸运，目前可能经历了三辆 Uber。
We joke about Uber 1.0, the Travis era, and you hear a lot about in the media the kind of bad parts of that, but there were some really good parts too.
我们开玩笑说 Uber 1.0、特拉维斯时代，你在媒体上听到很多关于其中不好的部分，但也有一些非常好的部分。
I mean, I think there was a lot of...
我的意思是，我认为有很多...
Like when I joined in 2014, there was this mission of making transportation as reliable as running water for anyone anywhere, which is bold, audacious, and maybe a little bit pretentious from a little bit of Silicon Valley edge, but you could feel the electricity in the air.
就像我 2014 年加入时一样，我们的使命是为任何地方的任何人提供像自来水一样可靠的交通，这是大胆的、大胆的，也许在硅谷边缘有点自命不凡，但你可以感受到空气中的电流。
There was this energy and excitement like we're doing something transformational, autonomy is coming, car ownership will change.
我们充满活力和兴奋，就像我们正在做一些变革一样，自主即将到来，汽车所有权将会改变。
And it just like, feel, like my vibration.
它就像，感觉，就像我的振动。
John Mark Nickels: And then, yeah, the good parts of that era were, Travis was a very great visionary product leader, and we started ATG and Elevate and these future-forward things and the way he would conduct product reviews, I learned a lot.
John Mark Nickels：然后，是的，那个时代的优点是，Travis 是一位非常伟大、有远见的产品领导者，我们创办了 ATG 和 Elevate，这些面向未来的事情以及他进行产品评论的方式，我学到了很多。
It was stressful at the time, but looking back, I was like, wow, I learned a lot.
当时压力很大，但回想起来，我想，哇，我学到了很多东西。
But yeah, I would say it was not a very conscious leadership sort of place.
但是，是的，我想说这不是一个非常有意识的领导力的地方。
You're right, it was like many organizations that run on fear because you can do that, carrots and sticks do work.
你是对的，就像许多组织在恐惧中运转一样，因为你可以做到这一点，胡萝卜加大棒确实有效。
But actually that's kind of how I found this work is it was in 2015 and I was a very junior product manager at that point, in over my head in a fast-growing place.
但实际上，我就是这样找到这份工作的，那是在 2015 年，当时我还是一名非常初级的产品经理，在一个快速增长的地方，我无法应对。
And in these weekly reviews with Travis as we were building out Uber Pool, and I had a six-month-old daughter, my firstborn, and we had just moved to San Francisco from Chicago.
在与特拉维斯的每周回顾中，我们正在构建 Uber Pool，我有一个六个月大的女儿，我的长子，我们刚刚从芝加哥搬到旧金山。
So my whole life was in flux and it was a very stressful place, and I was like, "I think I'm going to snap.
所以我的整个生活都在不断变化，这是一个压力很大的地方，我当时想，“我想我要崩溃了。
I don't think I can handle this."
我想我无法处理这件事。”
John Mark Nickels: And that's kind of what led me to start to explore this sort of inner work and meditation and sort of finding a way out of that.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：这就是促使我开始探索这种内心工作和冥想的原因，并找到摆脱这种情况的方法。
And that's what got me interested in bringing it to teams too, is because I remember I was in one meeting where we were working on this future pricing thing, which is rider pricing, driver pricing, incentives, and how we bring surge pricing and all that together.
这也是我有兴趣将其引入团队的原因，因为我记得我在一次会议上，我们正在研究未来的定价问题，即乘客定价、司机定价、激励措施，以及我们如何将峰时定价等整合在一起。
And it gets very, I'll go heavy, and we have all these PhDs in the room, some of the best minds in the world.
事情变得非常严重，我会变得很沉重，我们房间里有所有这些博士，其中一些是世界上最优秀的人才。
We were able to hire people like Garrett van Ryzin, who was the foremost more person from Columbia and other people.
我们能够雇用像加勒特·范·里辛（Garrett van Ryzin）这样的人，他是来自哥伦比亚和其他人中最重要的人。
John Mark Nickels: But everyone's back to lizard brain, everyone's arguing.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但是每个人都回到了蜥蜴脑，每个人都在争论。
They're like, "Well, no, I think we should do it this way.
他们会说，“好吧，不，我认为我们应该这样做。
We should do it this way." And I was like, huh.
我们应该这样做。”我当时想，嗯。
As much as I enjoy the content of this, believe me, I'm an algo PM end to end, I love that stuff.
尽管我非常喜欢其中的内容，但请相信我，我是一名端到端的算法 PM，我喜欢这些东西。
But I was like, I don't think this conversation actually needs another PhD, or I'm not even PhD, but content expert.
但我当时想，我认为这场对话实际上不需要另一个博士学位，或者我什至不是博士学位，而是内容专家。
It's like what we need here is a way to shift again, back out of that fear, threat, righteousness sort of state into a more co-creative, collaborative, open-minded, curious, trusting sort of space.
就好像我们在这里需要的是一种再次转变的方式，从那种恐惧、威胁、正义的状态回到一个更具共同创造、协作、开放、好奇、信任的空间。
And that got me interested in pursuing more skills in coaching of individuals and teams.
这让我对追求更多个人和团队教练技能产生了兴趣。
John Mark Nickels: But yeah, to your Uber question, yeah, the Uber 1.0 was crazy.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但是，对于你的 Uber 问题，Uber 1.0 太疯狂了。
Uber 2.0 was kind of like, Travis is out, the board is feuding, is leaking to Mike Isaac, whatever.
Uber 2.0 有点像，特拉维斯出局了，董事会争执不休，向迈克·艾萨克泄密，等等。
And then Dara comes in and the peacemaker and then tries to stabilize, but the IPO is rocky.
然后达拉（Dara）介入，成为和事佬，然后试图稳定局势，但首次公开募股（IPO）却很艰难。
And so now I would say we're in Uber 3.0, which it's full pirate ship to navy, in Reid Hoffman's words, a profitable company.
所以现在我想说我们正处于 Uber 3.0 时代，用 Reid Hoffman 的话说，这完全是海军的海盗船，是一家盈利的公司。
We're printing free cashflow, we're in the S&P 500, we've established the independent contractor model in a lot of states and jurisdictions, and it's like there's less risk of that model changing.
我们正在印制自由现金流，我们进入了标准普尔 500 指数，我们在许多州和司法管辖区建立了独立承包商模式，而且该模式改变的风险似乎较小。
John Mark Nickels: And yeah, I would say we're in an era now of Cambrian explosion of different types of transportation.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，我想说我们现在正处于寒武纪不同类型交通爆发的时代。
The company really just built the UberX model and scaled it out to the world.
该公司实际上只是构建了 UberX 模型并将其推广到全世界。
That's primarily how we got here.
我们主要就是这样到达这里的。
And now it's like we're going out for all these different new sort of modalities, whether it's reserving a ride in advance or shared rides or renting a car or buses, and then different supply types too.
现在，我们似乎正在寻求所有这些不同的新型模式，无论是提前预订乘车、共享乘车还是租赁汽车或公共汽车，还有不同的供应类型。
It's not just contracted, we have a lot of fleets in the platform, we now have a lot of taxi drivers in the platform.
不仅仅是签约，我们平台上有很多车队，我们现在平台上有很多出租车司机。
You've seen we've signed deals with Waymo and Cruise and other autonomist players.
您已经看到我们已经与 Waymo 和 Cruise 以及其他自治主义参与者签署了协议。
So I feel like we're now at the beginning of another era of Uber and transportation, that the next decade or two, it's going to be super exciting.
所以我觉得我们现在正处于优步和交通另一个时代的开始，未来一两年，这将是非常令人兴奋的。
Lenny Rachitsky: One quick tangent, UberX, a previous guest shared that the name UberX came from...
Lenny Rachitsky：一个快速切线，UberX，一位之前的客人分享说 UberX 这个名字来自......
it was just like the internal code name, UberX, we'll figure out a real name later, and then it stuck and no one had a better name.
就像内部代号UberX一样，我们稍后会想出一个真实的名字，然后就卡住了，没有人有更好的名字。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, that's right.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，没错。
I think that's right.
我认为这是对的。
John Mark Nickels: When I joined, we were already scaling UberX rapidly.
John Mark Nickels：当我加入时，我们已经在快速扩展 UberX。
I joined in early 2014.
我于 2014 年初加入。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
But I did help name Uber Pool, Uber Pool, which I selflessly like to bring back.
但我确实帮助命名了 Uber Pool，Uber Pool，我无私地想把它带回来。
It got renamed to Share during my external APM rotation.
在我的外部 APM 轮换期间，它被重命名为“共享”。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I want to come back to the thread that I pushed us off of, which is you talked about, you made this really interesting point about emotions, and this is something I've been learning myself recently with having a kid and also a couple of previous guests.
我想回到我让我们离开的话题，你谈到的，你提出了关于情感的非常有趣的观点，这是我最近在有了一个孩子和之前的几位客人的过程中自己学习的东西。
So you say that when you have...
所以你说当你有...
so you're in this meeting, you're stressed, there's a lizard brain kicking in.
所以你在参加这个会议时，你感到压力很大，蜥蜴脑正在发挥作用。
Something's like, "Oh, Dara's going to think I suck and it's going to really screw my career if I mess up this presentation." Your advice there is very counterintuitive, I think for a lot of people, which is accept that emotion.
就像是，“哦，达拉会认为我很糟糕，如果我搞砸了这次演讲，我的职业生涯就会彻底毁掉。”我认为对于很多人来说，你的建议是非常违反直觉的，那就是接受这种情绪。
Because when I feel stressed and nervous in a meeting, I'm not, "Embrace the nervousness, let it out." It's more I'm just like, "No, it's fine.
因为当我在会议中感到压力和紧张时，我不会说“拥抱紧张，把它发泄出来”。更多的是我只是想，“不，没关系。
Going to be okay.
会没事的。
Don't worry about it." Talk about why that is actually more effective.
别担心。”谈谈为什么这实际上更有效。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，是的。
It's like my daughter the other day had some nightmares and she was like, "Dad, how do I stop thinking thoughts about the nightmare or whatever?" And I said, "You can't.
就像我女儿前几天做了一些噩梦，她说：“爸爸，我怎样才能停止思考噩梦之类的事情呢？”我说：“你不能。
Don't try to stop the thought.
不要试图阻止这个想法。
Just allow it.
就允许吧。
Let me show you why that doesn't work." I said, "Don't think of a pink elephant.
让我告诉你为什么这行不通。”我说：“别想粉红色的大象。
What did you just think of?" And she's like, "A pink elephant." And then now she thinks it's hilarious and she tells her sister, "Don't think of a pink elephant."
你刚才想到了什么？”她就像，“一只粉红色的大象。”现在她觉得这很搞笑，她告诉她的妹妹，“别想粉红色的大象。”
John Mark Nickels: But yeah, I think you're right.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但是，是的，我认为你是对的。
It is a little counterintuitive, but one of my first coaches actually had a great phrase, what you resist will persist and what you fear will appear.
这有点违反直觉，但我的第一位教练实际上有一句很棒的话，你抗拒的东西将会持续存在，你害怕的东西将会出现。
And so in my experience, this is another reason why becoming more aware of my internal world has been so important.
因此，根据我的经验，这是更加了解我的内心世界如此重要的另一个原因。
I have more agency than I realized on the outcome of my experience.
根据我的经历，我拥有比我意识到的更多的能动性。
And so when I think a thought like, Dara might think I suck and then I have a thought that I suck, that can become a self-enforcing negative feedback loop where I have a thought that creates stress, anxiety, fear, and then that triggers more thoughts and we call it cognitive emotive loop where you're kind of in this cycle of thinking stressful thoughts and then having unpleasant, anxious, fearful feelings.
所以，当我有这样的想法时，达拉可能认为我很糟糕，然后我有一个我很糟糕的想法，这可能会成为一个自我执行的负反馈循环，我的想法会产生压力、焦虑、恐惧，然后触发更多的想法，我们称之为认知情绪循环，你会陷入这样的循环：思考有压力的想法，然后产生不愉快、焦虑、恐惧的感觉。
And so one way to break that is to just allow it and not try to fight it with other thoughts.
因此，打破这种情况的一种方法就是允许它发生，而不是试图用其他想法来对抗它。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice is very tactically, so you're in a meeting with Dara, you're stressed about something.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这个建议非常有策略性，所以你在和 Dara 开会时，你对某件事感到压力。
Just allow it, let it be.
就允许吧，就这样吧。
Don't try to pretend like it's not there or don't try to convince yourself-
不要试图假装它不存在，也不要试图说服自己-
John Mark Nickels: Well, that would be the first step, is just to allow whatever's here, thoughts and emotions are rising.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：嗯，这将是第一步，就是让这里的一切、思想和情绪不断上升。
They come, they go, they're transient.
他们来了，他们走了，他们都是短暂的。
It's not permanent.
这不是永久的。
There's a lot of wisdom I think in the Buddhist lineage around those concepts.
我认为佛教传承中有很多围绕这些概念的智慧。
And then the next piece for me, once I can take a breath and relax a little bit, is coming home to the fact that I...
然后，一旦我可以喘口气并放松一下，我的下一个作品就是回到现实，我......
and this is a little more radical for some people, I don't actually need Dara to approve of me in my presentation in order to be okay.
这对某些人来说有点激进，我实际上不需要达拉在我的演示中批准我才能好。
What I'm up to over here is trying to force self-worth and self-love from within.
我在这里要做的就是试图从内部强迫自我价值和自爱。
And so we talk about approval, control and security.
所以我们谈论批准、控制和安全。
It's very easy to look for that from the world.
从世界上寻找这一点是很容易的。
Do you approve of me?
你赞成我吗？
And if not, can I control outcomes to get approval or get security and get the job, the bank account, the house, whatever it is?
如果没有，我可以控制结果以获得批准或保障并获得工作、银行账户、房子，无论是什么吗？
John Mark Nickels: But what I kind of woke up to at one point was that as long as I was going out there looking for all that stuff to try to complete something inside of me that was missing, it's like I was a hungry ghost.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但我在某一时刻突然意识到，只要我出去寻找所有这些东西，试图完成我内心缺失的东西，就好像我是一个饥饿的鬼魂。
It's like, it doesn't matter how many Michelin star meals and promotions and money and title and whatever.
就像，有多少米其林星级餐食、促销、金钱、头衔等等并不重要。
It's like it's never enough.
好像永远都不够。
It's like you kind of enjoy it for a little bit and then you get back to like, hm, you know?
就好像你有点享受它，然后你又回到喜欢，嗯，你知道吗？
So it's like a never ending sugar addiction.
所以这就像永无休止的糖瘾。
And so that's the next step for me is allow it.
所以我的下一步就是允许它。
Yes, allow the emotion, allow the thought.
是的，允许情感，允许思想。
Come home to, "I am okay even Dara does think I suck." And then also it's not permanent, right?
回到家，“我很好，即使达拉也认为我很糟糕。”而且它也不是永久的，对吗？
It's like sure, there might be some high stakes things in life where you only get one shot, but for the most part it's like if I didn't do a great job on this presentation, there'll be another one.
可以肯定的是，生活中可能会有一些高风险的事情，你只能得到一次机会，但在大多数情况下，如果我在这次演讲中做得不好，就会有另一次机会。
It's okay.
没关系。
John Mark Nickels: And think of it as practice.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：并将其视为练习。
The other thing is from the fear threat state, I'm like, uh-oh, this is a risk, alarm bells, my career could be over.
另一件事是来自恐惧威胁状态，我想，呃，哦，这是一个风险，警钟，我的职业生涯可能会结束。
Whereas if I'm in that trusting, curious, open space, it's like this is an opportunity for feedback.
然而，如果我处在那个信任、好奇、开放的空间中，这就像是一个获得反馈的机会。
How can I learn?
我怎样才能学习？
How can I get to become a better presenter?
我怎样才能成为一名更好的演讲者？
It's like the feedback from others is no longer a threat.
就好像其他人的反馈不再是威胁一样。
It's actually a gift.
这实际上是一份礼物。
It's like information that I can use or not use to alter how I show up in the future and the skills I develop and all that good stuff.
这就像我可以使用或不使用的信息来改变我未来的表现、我发展的技能以及所有这些好东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine some people may hear this and feel like if Dara or Travis or whoever thinks I suck, my career is at stake and that really matters and everything's going to fall apart in my life because I get fired, there's stakes involved with messing up.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想有些人听到这句话可能会觉得，如果达拉或特拉维斯或任何认为我很糟糕的人，我的职业生涯就会受到威胁，这真的很重要，我生活中的一切都会崩溃，因为我被解雇了，搞砸了就会有风险。
Is there anything that helps you get past that and not worry so much about just this trickle effect of all the things that could go wrong if you mess something up in an important high stakes meeting or presentation?
有没有什么可以帮助你克服这个问题，而不是太担心如果你在重要的高风险会议或演示中搞砸了一些事情，所有可能出问题的事情的涓滴效应？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
Again, and maybe it is a little paradoxical, but what I found was the more I focused on how I show up and optics and having a good deck and all this, the less I got promoted and then the more I dropped focusing all that.
再说一次，也许这有点自相矛盾，但我发现，我越是专注于自己的表现、光学、拥有一套好的套牌等等，我得到的晋升就越少，然后我就越不关注这一切。
Because for my first few years of Uber, I was a senior PM and then I finally got my groove and started kind of moving through the product ladder.
因为在 Uber 的头几年，我是一名高级产品经理，然后我终于找到了自己的状态，并开始在产品阶梯上移动。
And it was really correlated to me at least, maybe causal, with dropping a lot of the focus on the presentation and how I show up and whether people like this or not, and just really focusing on the work.
这至少与我确实相关，也许是因果关系，因为我不再关注演示、我的表现以及人们是否喜欢这样，而是真正专注于工作。
It's like, you know what?
就像，你知道吗？
I am here to be a conduit from what wants to happen in the world of transportation and mobility and shared rides is one that I've always been particularly passionate about, so that's a good example, and then how can I get present and listen to what wants to happen next in the world of shared rides?
我来这里是为了成为交通和出行领域想要发生的事情的一个渠道，而共享乘车是我一直特别热衷的一个，所以这是一个很好的例子，那么我如何才能参与并倾听共享乘车世界接下来想要发生的事情呢？
And there's lots of different ways we can take the product and all that.
我们可以通过很多不同的方式来获取产品等等。
John Mark Nickels: And it's really about, I want to make a fucking awesome product, right?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：这实际上是关于，我想制作一个非常棒的产品，对吧？
And it's like, whether people like me or think I'm a good PM or presenter, as long as I manifest a great product into the world that makes riders better off, drivers better off, cities better off, less congestion, all these things, that to me is the reward.
就像，无论人们喜欢我还是认为我是一名优秀的产品经理或主持人，只要我向世界展示一款伟大的产品，让乘客过得更好，司机过得更好，城市过得更好，拥堵更少，所有这些对我来说就是奖励。
And sure, in order to manifest that, it is often helpful to communicate things, present, align, all those sort of things.
当然，为了体现这一点，沟通、呈现、协调所有这些事情通常是有帮助的。
But those are a means to a more powerful and transformative end than just my career.
但这些是实现比我的职业生涯更强大、更具变革性的目标的一种手段。
I'm tapping into a larger purpose and sense of belonging and identity and sort of meaning.
我正在挖掘更大的目标、归属感、认同感和某种意义。
And from that place, it's like I've just dropped the kind of egoic, self-centered focus on whether I did good in the presentation or not.
从那时起，我就不再那么自私、以自我为中心，不再关注自己在演讲中是否表现出色。
And then yeah, maybe paradoxically, by doing that, it actually goes better and we do great work and it gets recognized.
然后，是的，也许矛盾的是，通过这样做，事情实际上变得更好，我们做了出色的工作并且得到了认可。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is fascinating.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这太令人着迷了。
To make that work, you need to really connect with the mission of the company you're working at.
为了实现这一目标，您需要真正了解您所在公司的使命。
You really need to believe this is very important and very meaningful.
你确实需要相信这是非常重要且非常有意义的。
So maybe that could be an issue for people if they don't really care about what the company's doing, it's going to be hard to allow for that approach.
因此，如果人们并不真正关心公司在做什么，这对他们来说可能是一个问题，就很难允许这种方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that you say that optics aren't as important.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，你说光学并不那么重要。
I think the reason I think about this as you talk about, a lot of people feel like there's the work and then there's talking about the work, making the work, the optics of what you did is really, really important.
我想，当你谈到这个问题时，我之所以会想到这个问题，是因为很多人觉得有工作，然后有关于工作、制作工作、你所做的事情的视觉效果真的非常重要。
And I love to hear.
我喜欢听。
Nobody wants to do that, but they always get this advice.
没有人愿意这样做，但他们总是得到这样的建议。
So important, optics, how you share the impact you've done, how you represent yourself.
非常重要的是，光学，你如何分享你所做的影响，你如何代表自己。
I guess, is there anything else you can share there about just helping people relax about that aspect of their job and without being so critical?
我想，关于帮助人们放松工作的这方面而不那么挑剔，你还有什么可以分享的吗？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
And to be clear, I do think it's important.
需要明确的是，我确实认为这很重要。
It can't be all work and no optics or all optics and no work.
不可能只有工作而没有光学，或者只有光学而没有工作。
There does need to be a balance there, and I think it does change depending on the size of the company and the level of seniority.
确实需要有一个平衡，我认为它确实会根据公司的规模和资历水平而变化。
When you're an IC, you're probably hopefully doing more actual work, and leaders are supporting them and presenting and communicating that work so that they get.
当你是一名 IC 人员时，你可能希望做更多的实际工作，领导者会支持他们并展示和沟通这些工作，以便他们得到成果。
John Mark Nickels: I mean, the optics does matter, right?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我的意思是，光学确实很重要，对吗？
At some senior level, you do spend more time on that, and it does have influence, back to the influence piece, which is like, how will I communicate an idea and the need for engineering resourcing and so forth might mean that team gets more engineers or doesn't get more engineers, or we do this project or we don't, right?
在某些高层，你确实会花更多的时间在这上面，它确实有影响，回到影响部分，就像，我将如何传达一个想法，以及工程资源的需求等等可能意味着团队需要更多的工程师或没有更多的工程师，或者我们做这个项目或不做这个项目，对吗？
Because at the end of the day, executive resource allocation is largely based on the, quote-unquote, "optics layer".
因为归根结底，执行资源分配很大程度上基于“光学层”。
So it does matter.
所以这确实很重要。
I want to be clear.
我想澄清一下。
I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but to me, again, it's more about that's a means to an end.
我并不是说这不重要，但对我来说，这更多的是达到目的的一种手段。
It's not about the optics itself.
这与光学本身无关。
It's like say what the Buddha is saying, don't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.
就如佛所说，不要把指月的手指误认为是月亮。
And the finger pointing at the moon could be the presentation, the OKR, you know, whatever.
指向月亮的手指可能是演示文稿、OKR，你知道，等等。
And it's like, that's not the actual outcome we care about.
这就像，这不是我们关心的实际结果。
That's an input to the output that really matters, which is the work, the product.
这是真正重要的输入到输出，即工作、产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I'm going to shift this to hard skills and another kind of direction.
我将把它转向硬技能和另一种方向。
So another thing that came up a bunch when I was asking people what you're amazing at and what you're really good at is strategy and vision.
因此，当我问人们你最擅长什么以及你真正擅长什么时，另一件事出现了很多，那就是战略和愿景。
I had this quote from one of your colleagues, Brent Goldman, "J.M.
我从你的一位同事布伦特·戈德曼 (Brent Goldman) 那里得到了这句话，“J.M.
thinks big, has lots of great ideas, will 'yes, and' to other people's ideas, will inspire everyone around him to be more creative, ambitious, and hardworking.
胸怀大志，有很多伟大的想法，会对别人的想法说“是的”，会激励他周围的每个人变得更有创造力、雄心勃勃和勤奋。
He doesn't climb hills, he finds bigger mountains and will bring you there." So along these lines, say someone comes to you and wants to build these skills, wants to get better at strategy, wants to get better at vision, which is something basically every product leader is trying to get better at and every leader wants to get better at, what advice do you generally share?
他不会爬山，他会找到更大的山，然后带你去那里。”因此，沿着这些思路，假设有人来找你，想要培养这些技能，想要在战略方面做得更好，想要在愿景方面做得更好，这基本上是每个产品领导者都在努力提高的，每个领导者都希望在这方面做得更好，你一般会分享什么建议？
How does one improve in these areas?
一个人如何在这些方面取得进步？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, thank you.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯： 是的，谢谢。
I appreciate the compliment.
我很感激你的赞美。
Thank you, Brent.
谢谢你，布伦特。
That is a great quote.
这是一个很好的引言。
Wow.
哇。
Yeah, I mean there's no magic toolkit or manual.
是的，我的意思是没有神奇的工具包或手册。
I've long ago given up on the notion that I'm one book away from the perfect elusive answer to whatever plagues you in life.
我很久以前就放弃了这样的想法，即我距离生活中困扰你的问题的完美难以捉摸的答案只有一本书的距离。
And there's obviously lots of books about strategy and you get into all that.
显然有很多关于战略的书籍，你可以了解所有这些。
I guess for me, a couple of things have been helpful.
我想对我来说，有几件事很有帮助。
One is you mentioned earlier finding a mission that you're really passionate about.
一是你之前提到的找到一个你真正热衷的使命。
I think it would be hard for me to come up with a strategy for improving the healthcare system.
我认为我很难提出改善医疗保健系统的策略。
It's like, sure, it's important.
就好像，当然，这很重要。
I hope someone does it and figures out how to deal with HIPAA and whatever, all this stuff, but it's just not for me.
我希望有人能做到这一点，并弄清楚如何处理 HIPAA 之类的问题，但这不适合我。
It's not my purpose, mission and vision in life.
这不是我的人生目标、使命和愿景。
John Mark Nickels: And so step one is, am I working at a place and in a product area in which I have a tremendous amount of passion?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：第一步是，我是否在一个我充满热情的地方和产品领域工作？
Because for me, that is the fuel and the motivation that helps me break through to getting the strategy.
因为对我来说，这是帮助我突破并获得策略的燃料和动力。
That's the first step.
这是第一步。
So that's where I feel enormously lucky because again, this revolutionizing transportation and car ownership and what happens with autonomy and form factors and future of cities is something that I'm super excited about.
所以这就是我感到非常幸运的地方，因为这次交通和汽车所有权的革命性变革，以及城市的自主性、形式因素和未来所发生的一切，都是我非常兴奋的事情。
I think about my daughters growing up and having a different world to live in that's safer and more environmentally friendly, all this stuff, and I get really jazzed when I think about, wow, the work I do could actually impact their future lives and other people.
我想到我的女儿们长大了，生活在一个不同的世界，一个更安全、更环保的世界，所有这些，当我想到，哇，我所做的工作实际上可以影响她们和其他人的未来生活时，我真的很兴奋。
It's like, whoa, I can feel the chills right now.
就像，哇，我现在能感觉到寒冷。
It's just super motivating.
这真是超级激励人心。
So that's the first place, just getting myself fired up.
所以这是第一个地方，只是让自己兴奋起来。
John Mark Nickels: And then the next thing I guess that's been helpful is I've deeply immersed myself.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我想接下来有帮助的是我深深地沉浸在其中。
I haven't really jumped around between crypto and gen AI, this stuff, and a lot of people do that.
我还没有真正在加密货币和人工智能之类的东西之间跳来跳去，而且很多人都这样做。
It's great, nothing wrong with that, but I've been in this largely focused on mobility space for 10 years now with some stints over in the restaurant tech and delivery side, but very related in terms of last mile logistics.
这很好，这没什么问题，但我在这个主要关注移动领域已经有 10 年了，在餐厅技术和送货方面工作过一些，但在最后一英里物流方面非常相关。
And so I think it's hard to come up with a great strategy if you've only been working in an area for six months.
因此，我认为如果你只在一个领域工作了六个月，就很难想出一个好的策略。
Especially things like this, they're super nuanced.
尤其是像这样的事情，它们非常微妙。
Shared rides is another a good example where it's a super hard problem to crack and it's going deep on that for a long time is a precursor to being successful.
共享乘车是另一个很好的例子，它是一个超级难解决的问题，并且深入研究很长一段时间是成功的先决条件。
John Mark Nickels: The other thing I would say though is people always talk about first principles thinking, but if there's truth in it, I think that's like when Elon's like, "Well, why does the rocket cost a gazillion dollars to launch?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我想说的另一件事是，人们总是谈论第一原理思维，但如果它是真实的，我认为这就像埃隆说的那样，“好吧，为什么火箭的发射要花费数百万美元？
And there's no reason they have to throw away the materials and blah, blah, blah." One example might be, why do we need a 4,000 pound vehicle to move a human three miles?
他们没有理由必须扔掉这些材料等等。”一个例子可能是，为什么我们需要一辆 4,000 磅的车辆才能将人运送三英里？
Okay, well...
好吧，好吧……
Or even a couple of humans.
甚至是几个人。
We do an Uber Pool or a Share, and you move two humans or three humans, even then that's pretty inefficient.
我们做优步池或共享，然后你移动两个人或三个人，即使这样效率也相当低。
If you think about just the physics there, the energy expenditure.
如果你只考虑那里的物理原理，即能量消耗。
John Mark Nickels: And that's where I think you might come up with bikes and scooters and little other things.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我认为这就是你可能会想出自行车、踏板车和其他一些东西的地方。
And sure it's not always, it's raining or you want the car, but that's sort of an example of why questioning why are things the way they are, and then is the way they are super inefficient or not optimal in some sense?
当然并不总是这样，下雨了或者你想要车，但这就是为什么要质疑为什么事情是这样的一个例子，然后他们的方式是不是超级低效或在某种意义上不是最佳的？
And that is often a doorway to opportunity to see, okay, well maybe things could be different.
这通常是通向机会的大门，好吧，也许事情可能会有所不同。
And so I kind of extend that at a larger level to the future.
所以我在更大的层面上将其扩展到未来。
My general thing is just like, yeah, that's the mountain thing is I try to just close my eyes and imagine the future as far out as I can.
我的一般情况就是，是的，这就是山的事情，我试着闭上眼睛，尽可能想象未来。
John Mark Nickels: It's like five years from now, 10 years from now, whatever.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：就像五年后，十年后，无论如何。
And it's develop a really salient picture of what that looks like.
它正在形成一幅非常显着的图景。
It's like, we could do this right now, it's okay.
就像，我们现在就可以这样做，没关系。
10 years from now, what could San Francisco look like?
十年后，旧金山会是什么样子？
Or some city?
或者某个城市？
What happens to the parking spaces?
停车位会发生什么情况？
Are there still parking garages?
还有停车库吗？
Are those parks now?
现在还有那些公园吗？
What are the modes of transport?
有哪些交通方式？
Are there bus-like things that are autonomous that are connecting people to bikes and scooters?
是否有类似公交车的自动化设备将人们与自行车和踏板车连接起来？
And how are people living?
人们的生活如何？
Do they live in the far suburbs even more because autonomy and they have a nicer house and they come in, or is all the space repurposed and actually it's cheaper to live in the city because we compact things, blah, blah, blah.
他们是否更多地住在遥远的郊区，因为自治，他们有更好的房子，他们进来了，或者所有的空间都被重新利用，实际上住在城市更便宜，因为我们把东西压缩了，等等，等等。
It's not even about having the right one, it's more just developing some sort of picture of the future that gets you fired up.
这甚至与拥有合适的人无关，而更多的是描绘出某种让你兴奋的未来图景。
John Mark Nickels: And then yeah, you got to go articulate that and communicate it and get people to come on the journey with you.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：然后，是的，你必须阐明这一点并进行沟通，并让人们与你一起踏上旅程。
But from that picture, it's like, well, first principle, what's going to be true 10, 20 years from now?
但从这张图来看，第一原则就是，从现在起 10、20 年后会发生什么？
Well, autonomy is a given.
嗯，自主权是给定的。
I think most people would probably agree with that, and we'll probably solve it with just cameras and won't need lidar because humans don't have lidar.
我想大多数人可能会同意这一点，我们可能只用相机来解决这个问题，而不需要激光雷达，因为人类没有激光雷达。
The cost of vehicles and sensors will come down, remote support will come down, and at some point it'll be super cheap and it's like, okay, I can extrapolate, that will be a thing.
车辆和传感器的成本将会下降，远程支持也会下降，在某些时候它会变得非常便宜，就像，好吧，我可以推断，这将是一件事。
Separate from which player wins.
与哪个玩家获胜分开。
I'm not saying I can predict the ecosystem of companies that will win here.
我并不是说我可以预测将在这里获胜的公司的生态系统。
It's more about just the underlying dynamics.
它更多的是关于潜在的动态。
And then that would be one, and another one would be sharing.
然后这将是一个，另一个将是共享。
It's like, well, a lot of people are like, "Oh, well, once we have cheap autonomous cars, everyone can just have their own super cheap Uber, Tesla or whatever it is here in the city."
就像，很多人都会说，“哦，好吧，一旦我们有了廉价的自动驾驶汽车，每个人都可以拥有自己的超级便宜的优步、特斯拉或城里的任何东西。”
John Mark Nickels: And you're like, "Well, that doesn't work because then we're going to hit this induced demand concept," which is what economists call it, and you used to, when text messages cost 50 cents a piece, how many did you send versus now when it's free, it's in the millions.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：你会说，“好吧，这行不通，因为我们将触及这种诱导需求概念”，这就是经济学家所说的，过去，当短信每条花费 50 美分时，你发送了多少条，而现在免费时，发送了数百万条。
Same thing when they add a lane to a highway, the traffic just gets just as bad as before because more people drive and so forth.
同样的事情，当他们在高速公路上增加一条车道时，交通就会变得和以前一样糟糕，因为更多的人开车等等。
So if we flood the streets with super cheap autonomous cars with single occupancy, we're just going to have even more good luck than we do right now.
因此，如果我们的街道上充斥着超便宜的单人自动驾驶汽车，我们将会比现在拥有更多的好运。
Maybe we'll do The Boring Company thing and dig tunnels, but that seems unlikely.
也许我们会像The Boring Company那样挖隧道，但这似乎不太可能。
John Mark Nickels: So then for me, it's like, well, from first principles, shared rides is going to continue to be an important part of the future of transportation.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：那么对我来说，从首要原则来看，共享乘车将继续成为未来交通的重要组成部分。
And other modalities where yeah, back to the three mile thing, it's like, well, there probably will be various form factors of bikes, scooters and little mini golf cart things and whatever we end up building.
还有其他形式，是的，回到三英里的事情，就像，好吧，可能会有各种形状因素的自行车、踏板车和小型迷你高尔夫球车以及我们最终建造的任何东西。
And so that's hopefully an example of how I try to think about what are the likely things to be true in the future, and then how does that lead to a potential ecosystem and strategy around what we might build towards that future.
因此，这希望是我如何尝试思考未来可能发生的事情的一个例子，以及这如何导致围绕我们可能为未来构建的潜在生态系统和战略。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is great because this is something everyone can do, and there's all this talk of creating a vision, painting a vision, communicating a vision, and what you're describing is how to actually sit there and think about what it might look like.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很棒，因为这是每个人都可以做的事情，而且所有这些都在谈论创造愿景、描绘愿景、传达愿景，而你所描述的是如何真正坐在那里思考它可能是什么样子。
Sit there, close your eyes and in your head visualize in the next five or 10 years, what does the future actually look like?
坐在那里，闭上眼睛，在脑海中想象一下未来五年或十年，未来到底是什么样子？
And do you do this in a state of if we were to do this product and change, or is it just even if we're not around, here's where the future is going to go most likely, which direction do you usually take?
你是在这样的状态下做这件事的：如果我们要做这个产品并做出改变，或者即使我们不在身边，这就是未来最有可能走向的地方，你通常会采取哪个方向？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, that's a good question.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，这是一个很好的问题。
I think you could probably do either.
我想你也可以做。
I typically like to start with the former, which is just like, what will the world move towards absent of me?
我通常喜欢从前者开始，就像，如果没有我，世界将会走向何方？
Just trying to pick a bird's-eye view of what I think the trajectories are and trends and what's going to happen.
只是试图对我认为的轨迹、趋势以及将要发生的事情进行鸟瞰。
And then yeah, you could apply a lens of, okay, if we were to build product XYZ or have the strategy, how might we influence the outcome or benefit from it, or is it in congruence with that or is it rubbing against that and trying to change that?
然后，是的，你可以应用一个镜头，好吧，如果我们要构建产品 XYZ 或制定策略，我们如何影响结果或从中受益，或者它是否与结果一致，或者是否与结果相抵触并试图改变它？
Either could be good, you might say it's a tailwind or a headwind, both are overcomeable, but having some awareness of the relationship between those things is good.
两者都可能是好的，你可能会说这是顺风或逆风，两者都是可以克服的，但对这些事情之间的关系有一定的认识是好的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think transportation, Uber, Waymo, in theory it might be easier to visualize that future and how exciting that might be versus a B2B SaaS payroll app or some photo sharing thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为交通、Uber、Waymo 理论上可能更容易想象未来，以及与 B2B SaaS 薪资应用程序或某些照片共享应用程序相比，它可能会多么令人兴奋。
But on the other hand, not necessarily, right?
但另一方面，也不一定，对吧？
What in the future in 10 years, how are people going to be paid?
未来10年，人们的工资将如何？
How do people work at companies?
人们如何在公司工作？
I think there's an opportunity to do that no matter what you're building.
我认为无论您正在构建什么，都有机会做到这一点。
Is this something you actually do?
这是你实际做的事情吗？
You just sit there in the office, close your eyes and just imagine?
你只是坐在办公室里，闭上眼睛想象一下？
Is this more of an iterative process where you get with your team, how do you actually practice this?
这更像是您与团队一起进行的迭代过程，您实际上是如何实践的？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, it's not like something you can just schedule 30 minutes for in the middle of your day of packed OKR reviews and random one-on-ones and meetings.
John Mark Nickels：是的，这并不是你可以在一天中安排 30 分钟的时间来进行的 OKR 审查和随机的一对一会议。
It's like, I like to do it on my own at first unless it's something that I already have an outline for and I'm ready to move into a team space.
就像，一开始我喜欢自己做，除非我已经有了一个大纲并且准备好进入团队空间。
So for me, it's like, yeah, can I get into a quiet contemplative space?
所以对我来说，是的，我可以进入一个安静的沉思空间吗？
So yeah, I like to go for a run and that obviously gives me ideas, or I'll go for a hike up in Marin and sometimes I'll just think of stuff or jot something down or make a voice note while I'm doing that to get things going.
所以，是的，我喜欢去跑步，这显然会给我带来想法，或者我会去马林徒步旅行，有时我会在做这些事情的同时思考一些事情，或者记下一些东西，或者做一个语音笔记，让事情顺利进行。
But yeah, the first step for me is just getting out of the craziness of day-to-day.
但是，是的，对我来说第一步就是摆脱日常的疯狂。
To me, it's still insane how many product manager, leaders of all kinds just run the schedule of back to back meetings, 30-minute review, big meaty topics, you run out of time, run to the next thing, answer a bunch of emails, and then cram some PRDs in there.
对我来说，有多少产品经理、各种领导者只是执行背对背会议的日程安排、30 分钟的回顾、大的肉麻话题，你的时间用完了，就跑到下一件事，回复一堆电子邮件，然后塞进一些 PRD，这仍然是疯狂的。
It's like, it doesn't work.
就像，它不起作用。
John Mark Nickels: And so I'm a big fan of carving out time, again, first for myself, a couple hours, whatever, where I can just get out of the day-to-day craziness and get into that head space of five, 10 years from now.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以我非常热衷于腾出时间，首先是给自己，几个小时，无论如何，这样我就可以摆脱日常的疯狂，进入五年、十年后的头脑空间。
It's just a different place.
这只是一个不同的地方。
So you need to transition to that.
所以你需要过渡到这一点。
And then bring that to teams.
然后将其带给团队。
If I have an outline of that kind of future of transportation in my head, I might share that with a group of folks and we'll come together also for some extended period of time.
如果我脑子里有这种未来交通的轮廓，我可能会与一群人分享，我们也会在很长一段时间内聚在一起。
We recently had an all-day Monday thing where eight of us came into the office to talk about future of marketplace, and it was super productive.
最近，我们在星期一举行了一整天的活动，我们八个人来到办公室讨论市场的未来，效率非常高。
It was like, laptops down, we're going to spend all day together on a whiteboard.
就好像，放下笔记本电脑，我们将在白板上度过一整天。
It's like a lost art.
这就像一门失落的艺术。
People don't use the whiteboards anymore.
人们不再使用白板。
John Mark Nickels: But yeah, and then from there it's getting more people and then you can kind of iterate on it.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但是，是的，然后从那里开始有更多的人，然后你可以迭代它。
It's like I had some vision of the future and someone points out something that is a little bit off with it or has a better idea.
就好像我对未来有一些愿景，而有人指出了一些与它有点不相符的地方或者有更好的想法。
Then you move into co-creation.
然后你就进入共同创造。
But I love that.
但我喜欢这样。
It's like Pixar calls the brain trust.
这就像皮克斯所说的智囊团一样。
If you read book, how they come up with a Toy Story and Inside Out and all these things, is they have this group of people that just sits around riffing on ideas.
如果你读过一本书，就会知道他们是如何想出《玩具总动员》和《头脑特工队》以及所有这些东西的，他们有一群人坐在一起重复想法。
And again, there's no judgment, there's no attachment to being right.
再说一次，没有判断力，没有对正确的执着。
They're in a co-creative sort of space where they're just like co-exploring and riffing with each other.
他们处于一种共同创造的空间中，他们就像互相共同探索和即兴演奏。
And I love to be in that space with other PMs and engineers and data scientists.
我喜欢与其他产品经理、工程师和数据科学家一起在这个领域。
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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
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访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。
That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A . com 斜线 lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something I've started to do, which is hard, but I find really valuable is when I'm driving to not play anything on the radio, not listen to any podcasts, and it's so unnatural and it's like, oh, this is hard.
Lenny Rachitsky：我已经开始做的事情，这很难，但我发现真正有价值的是，当我开车时不播放任何广播，不听任何播客，这非常不自然，就像，哦，这很难。
I don't want my brain to just go...
我不想让我的大脑就这样...
you don't trust your brain to go to a place that's fun, but it always does.
你不相信你的大脑会去一个有趣的地方，但它总是会去。
It always ends up being like, oh, that was so interesting just to think of this idea that just came up.
最后总是会这样，哦，光是想到这个刚刚出现的想法就太有趣了。
So I've been trying to do that, and that's such a simple thing to do.
所以我一直在尝试这样做，这是一件非常简单的事情。
Just don't turn anything on.
只是不要打开任何东西。
John Mark Nickels: Well, it's not really good for your podcast business to tell people not to listen to podcasts.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：嗯，告诉人们不要听播客对你的播客业务来说并不是什么好事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, everyone, we're cutting this.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，大家，我们要剪掉这个了。
What I find really helpful is playing Lenny's podcast every time I'm out and about.
我发现真正有用的是每次外出时播放莱尼的播客。
John Mark Nickels: No, but there's something to what you said, which is there's always a lot of content out there to pursue, and I've been in that mode where I'm like, yeah, more content, more...
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：不，但你所说的有一些东西，那就是总是有很多内容需要追求，而我一直处于那种模式，是的，更多内容，更多......
But yeah, actually similar to you, spend a lot of time now not listening to anything.
但是，是的，实际上和你类似，现在花了很多时间不听任何东西。
Go on a hike where you don't listen to a podcast or music on your commute and see what happens.
去徒步旅行，在通勤时不听播客或音乐，看看会发生什么。
You might be surprised.
你可能会感到惊讶。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And it always ends up being like, oh, that was cool.
最后总是会说，哦，那太酷了。
And that's where shower ideas come from and all these things.
这就是淋浴创意和所有这些东西的来源。
Maybe just to see if there's something here, in this meeting that you have, this ideation brainstorming meeting, is there anything that came out of that that was really surprising or new from a recent experience?
也许只是想看看，在这次会议中，在这次创意头脑风暴会议中，是否有什么东西是从最近的经历中产生的真正令人惊讶或新的东西？
Is there anything there of just like, oh wow, we really uncovered this potential wrinkle of the future that we really need to think about differently?
有没有什么事情就像，哦，哇，我们真的发现了未来的潜在问题，我们真的需要以不同的方式思考？
John Mark Nickels: Well, it wasn't maybe a specific wrinkle, but one of the things that we're thinking a lot about, like I'm fortunate to be involved in trying to help develop and articulate a multi-year three-year product or even overall tech strategy for the mobility business at Uber.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：嗯，这可能不是一个具体的问题，而是我们经常思考的事情之一，就像我很幸运能够参与帮助开发和阐明一个多年的三年产品，甚至是优步移动业务的整体技术战略。
And one of the, I guess big ahas for us is as we move away from the, in some ways simpler world of UberX being the predominant product, which is it used to be pretty simple.
我想，对我们来说最大的惊喜之一是，我们不再以 UberX 为主导产品，在某种程度上更简单的世界，而过去它非常简单。
It's kind of like a taxi meter on the driver's side.
这有点像司机一侧的出租车计价器。
There's a time and distance rate that everybody gets, and then on the rider's side it's like, sure, there's some surge pricing based on supply and demand, but it's one product, it's pretty straightforward.
每个人都会得到一个时间和距离费率，然后在骑手方面，当然，有一些基于供需的激增定价，但它是一种产品，非常简单。
And so this future of multi-modality and on the both demand side and the supply side is what makes the marketplace even more complex and challenging to build.
因此，需求方和供应方的多模式未来使得市场变得更加复杂且更具挑战性。
John Mark Nickels: And so it was kind of all this around, okay, well now that we have taxis in the platform and we have fleet providers and we're starting to add Waymos and Cruise and other things, we have to have a marketplace that's aware of those different types of supply and which one might be available for what trips and how to think about cost and quality and allocation of trips and all that.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以这就是所有这些，好吧，现在我们的平台上有出租车，我们有车队提供商，我们开始添加 Waymos 和 Cruise 等东西，我们必须有一个市场，了解这些不同类型的供应，哪些供应可用于哪些旅行，以及如何考虑成本和质量以及旅行分配等等。
And then on the demand side, it's like, yeah, we've got all these different products like shared rides and reserved rides and comfort and X and priority, and it's like how do we think about how to price those relative to each other?
然后在需求方面，是的，我们拥有所有这些不同的产品，例如共享乘车、预订乘车、舒适度、X 和优先级，就像我们如何考虑如何相对彼此定价？
How do we think about which one's to show which user?
我们如何考虑向哪个用户展示哪个？
How do you think about the ranking and so forth?
您如何看待排名等问题？
And then that all has feedback loops into the pricing and matching itself as well.
然后，所有这些都会对定价和匹配本身产生反馈循环。
John Mark Nickels: So the dynamics of the thing, when I think about the future of marketplace, Uber, is like, whoa.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以，当我想到 Uber 市场的未来时，事情的动态就像，哇。
And I don't think anyone's ever built that.
我认为没有人建造过它。
That's the super cool thing about it.
这就是它的超级酷之处。
I think we have the best logistics marketplace tech on the planet and we built something that no one else has ever built, relative to digital marketplaces, for example, just different physical world requirements.
我认为我们拥有世界上最好的物流市场技术，并且我们构建了其他人从未构建过的东西，例如，相对于数字市场，只是不同的物理世界要求。
And then this next arc of what I described of thinking about different types of supply and different kind of demand channels just adds even more complexity to that.
然后，我所描述的考虑不同类型的供应和不同类型的需求渠道的下一个弧线只会增加更多的复杂性。
But the aha was like, I guess, yeah, we got to think about all that stuff and think about how the supply and demand relate to each other and yeah, it's going to be cool.
但是啊哈就像，我想，是的，我们必须考虑所有这些事情，并考虑供应和需求如何相互关联，是的，这会很酷。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just an infinitely cited marketplace now.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在它只是一个被无限引用的市场。
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
One last nugget I wanted to just reinforce that you shared about how to become better at strategy and vision, developing great and interesting and innovative strategy, and vision is going really deep on a topic.
我想强调的最后一点是，您分享了如何在战略和愿景方面变得更好，制定伟大、有趣和创新的战略，而愿景是在一个主题上真正深入。
So you've been in the space for a long time.
所以你已经在这个空间呆了很长时间了。
There's this idea that Paul Graham talks about, I think, called your top idea or something like that, that when you have...
我认为保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）谈到了一个想法，称为你的首要想法或类似的东西，当你……
Whatever your top ideas, the more you can just think about that and keep that top of mind as you go about your day and just have one core focus, the more likely it is you're going to come up with new interesting ideas because your brain's going to keep working on it when you're driving around listening to Lenny's podcast.
无论你的首要想法是什么，你越能在一天中思考并牢记这一点，并且只有一个核心焦点，你就越有可能想出新的有趣的想法，因为当你开车听莱尼的播客时，你的大脑会继续思考它。
Just kidding, or going on hike.
开玩笑，或者去远足。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think that's a really important point is if you're finding you're not coming up with a great strategy or vision and just having struggles, part of it might just be you're not spending enough time in that space, you're not going deep enough in the problem area.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为这一点非常重要，如果你发现自己没有想出一个伟大的战略或愿景，只是遇到了困难，部分原因可能是你没有在这个领域花费足够的时间，你没有在问题领域深入研究。
One approach is just spend a decade in that space.
一种方法是在这个领域呆上十年。
Is there anything else just comes up as I say that of just how to do that?
当我说的时候，还有其他什么关于如何做到这一点的吗？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
Well there's also, that's at the macro level, maybe spending 10 years in a space, but at the micro level, back to kind of like defrag your day, don't just do the 20, 30 minute meetings on 20 different topics.
嗯，还有，在宏观层面上，也许在一个空间里呆 10 年，但在微观层面上，就像整理你的一天一样，不要只是就 20 个不同的主题进行 20、30 分钟的会议。
Sure, sometimes you do that first and you got to do that.
当然，有时你首先这样做，而且你必须这样做。
You have a large team like I do, obviously reviews across teams.
你们和我一样有一个庞大的团队，显然是跨团队的审查。
I'm not saying I don't do that on some days, but it's like, yeah, what are my top few things, right?
我并不是说我有时不这样做，但就像，是的，我最重要的几件事是什么，对吗？
I think, you're right, I think it was Peter or PayPal guys talked about that too, going really deep and having a person or a leader really responsible for one core, deep thing for the company, and that's something they immerse themselves in.
我认为，你是对的，我认为 Peter 或 PayPal 的人也谈到了这一点，非常深入，让一个人或一个领导者真正负责公司的一项核心、深入的事情，这就是他们沉浸其中的事情。
And so in the micro, that to me again translates to, yeah, I don't have a to-do list of 20 things.
所以在微观上，这对我来说再次意味着，是的，我没有 20 件事的待办事项清单。
I try to have a to-do list of three of the most important highest leverage things that could have impact broadly across the company and then try this, like you said, let that one top thing marinate and chew on it.
我尝试列出一份待办事项清单，其中列出了可能对整个公司产生广泛影响的三件最重要的、杠杆率最高的事情，然后尝试这样做，就像你说的，让那件最重要的事情腌制并咀嚼它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
And I recently had a post about all these productivity tricks, and one of the things that I find really helpful is at the beginning of each day and also at the beginning of each week, just write down, here's the one to three things that I need to do and get done.
我最近有一篇关于所有这些生产力技巧的帖子，我发现真正有用的事情之一是在每天开始和每周开始时，写下，这是我需要做和完成的一到三件事。
And everything else, I might have this really long list, but here's the three things if I get done, life will be good.
至于其他的事情，我可能有一个很长的清单，但如果我完成了这三件事，生活就会很美好。
I've done a lot.
我已经做了很多。
I've accomplished really great, important things.
我已经完成了非常伟大、重要的事情。
John Mark Nickels: Totally.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：完全可以。
I tried to do the David Allen GTD thing once, the super complicated organization system.
我曾经尝试过做David Allen GTD的事情，超级复杂的组织系统。
It was too much structure for me.
这对我来说结构太多了。
I couldn't do it.
我做不到。
At the end of the day, what you said is right.
到最后，你说的都是对的。
There's basically three things that I need to do next, and then there's just some random backlog that I can just scan through periodically and that's it.
接下来我基本上需要做三件事，然后就是一些随机的积压工作，我可以定期扫描这些工作，仅此而已。
That gets you most of the way.
这可以让你获得大部分的帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's crazy.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。
I read that book 20 years ago at this point, and there's elements that still make things, like I leverage and benefit from.
我 20 年前读过那本书，其中的一些元素仍然可以创造事物，比如我可以利用并从中受益。
Even if you don't do the whole thing, that book I recommend people read because there's just like, if you pick a couple things from there, your life gets better.
即使你没有做全部事情，我也建议人们阅读这本书，因为就像，如果你从中挑选几件事，你的生活就会变得更好。
The things that have stuck with me, the main one is this waiting for concept of if you're waiting, if you email your designer and like, "Hey, I need you to review this product," just note, "Waiting for Dan to review design." And just having that thread written down and not in your head really helped me.
一直困扰着我的事情，最主要的是这个等待的概念，如果你在等待，如果你给你的设计师发电子邮件，比如，“嘿，我需要你审查这个产品，”只需注意，“等待丹审查设计。”把这条线索写下来而不是放在脑子里对我很有帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Anyway, I'm not going to go on that tangent.
无论如何，我不会继续这样的切线。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
It's the core concept of like, whatever steps you use.
无论您使用什么步骤，这都是“喜欢”的核心概念。
I think the most powerful takeaway from that book for me was if it's in your head, you're screwed because it's like you're trying to keep track of stuff and be creative and come up with the future of transportation and remember to pick up something from the pharmacy.
我认为这本书对我来说最有力的收获是，如果它在你的脑海里，你就完蛋了，因为这就像你试图跟踪东西并发挥创造力，想出交通的未来，并记得从药房拿东西。
It's a recipe for disaster.
这是灾难的根源。
This whole idea of empty mind, beginner's mind, well, you have to empty the mind of all the to-dos first.
空心的整个想法，初学者的心，好吧，你必须首先清空所有待办事项的心。
Just get that out of the head.
把它从脑子里除掉吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。
I think it was mind like water, that's the one that stuck with me, where nothing you need to remember can be in your head.
我认为那是一种如水般的心智，它一直困扰着我，你的头脑中没有任何你需要记住的东西。
It needs to be written down somewhere Anyway, let's not go into a whole productivity podcast here.
它需要写在某个地方无论如何，我们不要在这里讨论整个生产力播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: So we talked about vision strategy.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们讨论了愿景战略。
So there's classically two problems people have with vision strategy.
因此，人们在愿景战略方面通常存在两个问题。
One is how do I get better at it?
一是我如何才能做得更好？
The other is just like, I need to actually get shit done.
另一个就像，我需要真正完成任务。
I can't spend all my time thinking about vision.
我不能把所有的时间都花在思考愿景上。
You have a really good take on how to find this balance and you've seen it work well and not well, just vision versus execution.
您对如何找到这种平衡有很好的看法，并且您已经看到它运作良好和不好，只是愿景与执行。
When do I go big vision, how much I spend on vision versus just get shit done, execute, execute, execute?
我什么时候应该有远大的愿景，我在愿景上花了多少钱，而不是只是把事情做好，执行，执行，执行？
What could you share about just what you've learned about how to find that balance and what you've seen work and not work?
您能分享一下您所学到的关于如何找到这种平衡的知识以及您所看到的有效和无效的方法吗？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, I think you can go too far either direction, right?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，我认为无论哪个方向都可能走得太远，对吧？
It's like everything in life is about balancing the polarity between two opposing forces.
就像生活中的一切都是为了平衡两种对立力量之间的极性。
And so in this one it's like, yeah, you go too hard in division and theory land, I've seen that go off the axle, early Uber where again, back to the future of pricing, it's like we have all the data scientists and PhDs locked in a room for two weeks and there's a beautiful whiteboard diagram.
所以在这方面，是的，你在除法和理论方面太过努力了，我已经看到了这种情况，早期的 Uber 又回到了定价的未来，就像我们把所有的数据科学家和博士锁在一个房间里两周，然后有一个漂亮的白板图。
What did it look like?
它看起来像什么？
And then it's like, why don't we actually build this thing?
然后我们就会想，为什么我们不真正建造这个东西呢？
And engineers are like, this is like boiling the ocean.
工程师们说，这就像沸腾的海洋一样。
And you just get wrapped around the axle of like, well, that sounds really good in theory, but I have no idea how to even start executing on this.
你只是被包围在一个轴上，好吧，这在理论上听起来确实不错，但我不知道如何开始执行它。
So that's probably an example of we tilted a little too far towards the vision theory land.
所以这可能是我们向视觉理论领域倾斜得有点过头的一个例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this was, you're describing the original plan to make a really good surge pricing algorithm?
Lenny Rachitsky：您正在描述制定一个非常好的峰时定价算法的原始计划？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
This was a plan to try to bring together, say how we do driver pricing, time and distance rates, but also we do incentives for drivers where it's like if you drive this many hours a week, you get a bonus.
这是一个尝试将我们如何对司机定价、时间和距离费率结合起来的计划，而且我们还对司机进行激励，就像如果你每周开车这么多小时，你就会得到奖金。
And there's also surge pricing and how to tie all those systems together in a very sophisticated sort of way.
还有峰时定价以及如何以非常复杂的方式将所有这些系统连接在一起。
This was back in 2017 or something and it winged a little too hard into theory land.
那是在 2017 年左右，它在理论领域的发展有点过头了。
John Mark Nickels: And we still have that bias sometimes.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：有时我们仍然存在这种偏见。
We joke about marketplace, especially when we talk about with other teams that are trying to integrate in the marketplace, let's say they add fleets or teams with a big new product.
我们拿市场开玩笑，尤其是当我们与其他试图融入市场的团队谈论时，假设他们添加了拥有大型新产品的车队或团队。
And then marketplace people would be like, "Well, have you thought about this one random problem that could happen two years from now if teams become this much of demand and blah blah blah, whatever." And it's just like we do get wrapped around the axle on that sometimes.
然后市场人士会说，“好吧，你有没有想过这个随机问题，如果团队变得如此需求，两年后可能会发生，等等等等。”就像我们有时确实会被车轴缠住一样。
But yeah, so the future of pricing is a good example, we winged a little too far into theory land.
但是，是的，定价的未来就是一个很好的例子，我们在理论领域走得太远了。
But you could probably go too far into execution land too.
但你也可能在执行领域走得太远。
And I'd say DoorDash in my experience would do that sometimes where we used to actually even half joke there, some of us leaders would be like, "It's ready, fire, aim."
我想说，根据我的经验，DoorDash 会做到这一点，有时我们以前甚至半开玩笑，我们中的一些领导者会说，“准备好了，开火，瞄准。”
John Mark Nickels: And it was like, people would be like, "I'm just going to run through a wall.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：人们会说，“我要跑过一堵墙。
I have no idea if that's the right wall to run through, but at least I know I'm running through a wall." So yeah, I think it's about balance and can you adjust.
我不知道那堵墙是否适合跑步，但至少我知道我正在穿过一堵墙。”所以是的，我认为这与平衡有关，你能调整一下吗？
Again, it's dynamic.
再次强调，它是动态的。
I think there's times where you're in a soul searching sort of, "What is our product strategy?
我认为有时你会进行自我反省，“我们的产品策略是什么？
We got to pivot." Maybe you're a startup and it's not working and you want to think about...
我们必须转向。”也许你是一家初创公司，但它不起作用，你想考虑......
And then it's like, okay, well pull off the gas a little bit, ease up on the execution and let's lean into the strategy vision piece.
然后就好像，好吧，我们稍微放松一下，放松一下执行力度，让我们专注于战略愿景部分。
And there's times where the strategy and vision's pretty baked at least for the next whatever, six months, a year.
有时，至少在接下来的六个月、一年内，战略和愿景已经相当成熟。
And it's like, okay, pedal to the metal.
就像，好吧，猛踩油门。
Let's just go execute.
我们就去执行吧。
Let's get it done.
让我们完成它吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: I just went to this Acquired Podcast event at the Chase Center.
Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚参加了在大通中心举行的后天播客活动。
Zuck was there, and the CEO of Spotify was there too.
扎克在场，Spotify 的首席执行官也在场。
And there's two quick anecdotes that you remind me of.
你让我想起了两件轶事。
One is, Zuck talked about how once Facebook and Zuck and the team align on here's where we're going, no matter how many walls appear in front of them, there's going to be a Mark shaped hole in the wall very soon because they're just going to run through and get things done that they need to get done.
一是，扎克谈到，一旦 Facebook 和扎克以及团队在我们前进的方向上达成一致，无论他们面前出现多少堵墙，墙上很快就会出现一个马克形的洞，因为他们只会跑过去完成他们需要完成的事情。
And I really love that mentality of once we're sure where we're going, we're going to bust through these walls.
我真的很喜欢这种心态，一旦我们确定了前进的方向，我们就会冲破这些墙壁。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other is a really interesting value at Spotify.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一个是 Spotify 非常有趣的价值。
So Daniel Ek shared this.
Daniel Ek 分享了这一点。
He said, "At Spotify we have this core value, talk is cheap." And when you hear that you think it's saying talk is not valuable, and it's actually they look at it as a virtue.
他说，“在 Spotify，我们有这样的核心价值，空谈是廉价的。”当你听到这句话时，你会认为这是在说谈话没有价值，而实际上他们将其视为一种美德。
Talk is cheap, we can talk and it costs us no money, very little money compared to building something.
谈话是廉价的，我们可以谈话，而且不需要花钱，与建造东西相比，花费的钱很少。
So they actually spent a lot of time at Spotify refining their ideas and discussing until they're really sure something is right.
因此，他们实际上在 Spotify 花了很多时间完善他们的想法并进行讨论，直到他们真正确定某些事情是正确的。
And I guess any reaction to that?
我想对此有什么反应吗？
Because I thought that was really interesting.
因为我觉得那真的很有趣。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, I love that.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，我喜欢这个。
It's almost a different flavor of, I think the base of saying of he's like, I like a crisp dock and a messy meeting.
这几乎是一种不同的风格，我认为他的基本说法是，我喜欢干净的码头和混乱的会议。
The whole Amazon thing, if you have the three-page or seven-page narrative, it's written with the clarity of angels singing from on high, at least describing how the problem statement or feature or whatever.
整个亚马逊的事情，如果你有三页或七页的叙述，它的清晰度就像天使在高处歌唱一样，至少描述了问题的陈述或特征或其他什么。
And so it's super crisp and organized and well articulated.
所以它非常清晰、有组织、清晰。
And then you might have a meeting where you pick it apart and you talk a lot.
然后你可能会开一个会议，把事情分开，然后聊很多。
That's what made me think of that.
这就是让我想到这一点的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Okay, couple more things I want to spend some time on.
好吧，还有一些我想花时间做的事情。
One is you've worked at a lot of really interesting successful hyper growth companies, DoorDash, Uber, Waymo.
一是你曾在很多非常有趣的成功的高速增长公司工作过，比如 DoorDash、Uber、Waymo。
You were also in finance for a while.
您也曾在金融领域工作过一段时间。
I want to pick on a few of these and just see what's a lesson you took away or what's an experience from that time that might be interesting or helpful to people?
我想挑选其中的一些，看看您学到了什么教训，或者当时的经历有哪些可能对人们有趣或有帮助？
Lenny Rachitsky: So you talked about DoorDash a bit.
Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到了 DoorDash。
What did you take away from your time at DoorDash?
您在 DoorDash 工作期间收获了什么？
What's something you saw there that either is like, wow, that's a really cool thing I want to do in the future, or here's something they weren't amazing at that I learned to try to avoid?
你在那里看到了什么东西，要么是，哇，这是我将来想做的一件非常酷的事情，要么是他们对我学会尽量避免的事情并不感到惊讶？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, yeah, it's really amazing to get to see different places and pick the best of what you like.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，是的，能够参观不同的地方并选择自己喜欢的最好的地方真是太棒了。
And also the other thing is back to like, for me, there's no right or wrong, it's just differences have pros and cons.
还有一点就是回到喜欢，对我来说，没有对错之分，只是有优缺点而已。
There's always two sides of the coin.
硬币总是有两面。
So what's interesting I think about Uber and DoorDash is first back to the mission and the strategy.
因此，我认为 Uber 和 DoorDash 的有趣之处首先回到了使命和战略。
They started with different DNA, right?
他们一开始就有不同的 DNA，对吗？
So Uber started with it was to utilize blocked cars at the airport that were not doing trips, but it was more about the riders.
因此，Uber 一开始是利用机场内那些不进行出行的被封锁的汽车，但更多的是为了乘客。
It was like whatever origin story you believe, Travis and whoever can get a ride in Paris.
这就像你相信的任何起源故事一样，特拉维斯和任何可以在巴黎搭车的人。
And so then it was about better than taxi and all this stuff, but it was very rider centric.
所以它比出租车和所有这些东西更好，但它非常以乘客为中心。
It was consumer centric in that sense.
从这个意义上说，它是以消费者为中心的。
John Mark Nickels: And so for a long time, I think Uber kind of took that too far.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：很长一段时间以来，我认为 Uber 的做法有点太过了。
We got to the polarity of drivers are a commodity, blah, blah, blah, and they had to flip that back and start really investing more on the driver's side of the marketplace.
我们得出的结论是，司机是一种商品，等等，等等，他们必须翻转这一点，开始真正在市场的司机方面进行更多投资。
But you look at DoorDash and it's like, Tony grew up in his parents' restaurant kitchen and the DoorDash thesis was how can we help small businesses be more successful?
但你看看 DoorDash，就会发现，托尼在他父母的餐厅厨房里长大，DoorDash 的论文是我们如何帮助小型企业取得更大成功？
And delivery was just the first instantiation of that sort of meta purpose of DoorDash.
交付只是 DoorDash 此类元目的的第一个实例。
And so they're much more merchant centric as opposed to consumer centric.
因此，他们更加以商家为中心，而不是以消费者为中心。
And by the way, the consumer centricism of Uber that started with rides than translated to Eats.
顺便说一句，Uber 以消费者为中心的理念始于打车服务，后来扩展到 Eats。
I think when Uber started with Eats, it was like, "Well, we just want Lenny to have some great Thai food and sushi and have some options.
我认为当 Uber 开始推出 Eats 服务时，感觉就像是，“好吧，我们只是想让 Lenny 吃到一些美味的泰国菜和寿司，并有一些选择。
But selection is a means to Lenny having a great eater experience." Whereas DoorDash with their merchant focus is like, "We want every Thai restaurant in this city to be successful and be on DoorDash."
但选择是让莱尼获得良好用餐体验的一种手段。”而 DoorDash 则以商家为重点，“我们希望这座城市的每一家泰国餐厅都能成功并进入 DoorDash。”
John Mark Nickels: So their motivation for selection is, "We want all of the merchants to thrive and survive." So that happens to give you better selection as a result.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以他们选择的动机是，“我们希望所有的商家都能蓬勃发展并生存下来。”因此，这恰好会给您带来更好的选择。
But the motivation was very different.
但动机却截然不同。
So the analogy I use is Uber is to Amazon as DoorDash is to Shopify, if that makes sense.
因此，我使用的类比是，Uber 之于亚马逊，DoorDash 之于 Shopify，如果这有意义的话。
Amazon has always been more consumer focused, Shopify is obviously very merchant focused.
亚马逊一直更注重消费者，而 Shopify 显然非常注重商家。
John Mark Nickels: And by the way, either of those, again, there's no right or wrong, is a fine strategy.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：顺便说一句，这两种策略都没有对错之分，都是不错的策略。
They're both great companies.
他们都是很棒的公司。
And I actually don't know if you could do both.
我实际上不知道你是否可以两者兼而有之。
Is it possible to be Amazon and Shopify?
有可能是亚马逊和Shopify吗？
To really focus on consumers and build all the merchant restaurant tech?
真正关注消费者并构建所有商家餐厅技术？
And maybe with enough resources and time, but that would lose focus.
也许有足够的资源和时间，但这会失去焦点。
So it's like there's a trade-off there.
所以这就像是一个权衡。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Like at Airbnb, there was always this, "Should we optimize for hosts?
就像在 Airbnb 一样，总是有这样的问题：“我们应该针对房东进行优化吗？
Should we optimize for guests?" And there's always this like, "This time, guests are most important.
我们应该针对客人进行优化吗？”总是有这样的话，“这一次，客人是最重要的。
Right now hosts are more..." Make these trade-off decisions in the marketplace.
现在主机更多......”在市场上做出这些权衡决定。
So it's interesting that at Uber, your insight there is Uber is always very rider focused, and DoorDash from its DNA was very merchant focused.
因此，有趣的是，在 Uber，你会发现 Uber 总是非常注重乘客，而 DoorDash 从其 DNA 来看非常注重商家。
You also talk about at DoorDash, there's this mentality of just going before figuring out where to go.
您还谈到在 DoorDash，有一种先走后想好去哪里的心态。
Is there anything more there that might be helpful, either as a cautionary tale or as a lesson?
还有什么可能有帮助的，无论是作为警示故事还是作为教训？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, I think it's a balance.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，我认为这是一种平衡。
It's back to I don't want to deliberate and pontificate for weeks on end about which door I should run through.
这又回到了我不想连续几周深思熟虑和武断地讨论我应该跑哪扇门。
And I don't want to go to the other extreme and just spend 30 seconds thinking about what to do and just go, go, go.
我不想走向另一个极端，只是花 30 秒思考要做什么，然后就走、走、走。
So it's finding that kind of happy medium.
所以它正在寻找一种快乐的媒介。
If I had to pick one, I'd rather bias towards running through a wall than not doing anything, because you still get learnings from that and you either make progress or you don't, and that gives you feedback and you can run through another wall as a result.
如果我必须选择一个，我宁愿偏向于跑过一堵墙，而不是什么都不做，因为你仍然可以从中学到东西，你要么取得进步，要么没有进步，这会给你反馈，结果你可以跑过另一堵墙。
So I think the biggest failure case is probably erring on the other side of deliberating too long without action.
所以我认为最大的失败案例可能是在另一方面考虑太久而不采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: What about Waymo?
Lenny Rachitsky：Waymo 怎么样？
What's something that you took away from that experience as a thing that you want to do more of or something you want to try to avoid?
你从那次经历中学到了什么，是你想做更多的事情，还是你想尽量避免的事情？
John Mark Nickels: Waymo is, you've probably seen people in San Francisco, they're quite prolific now in terms of they're all over San Francisco and you see them all the time.
John Mark Nickels：Waymo 是，你可能在旧金山见过他们，他们现在非常多产，因为他们遍布旧金山，你一直都能看到他们。
And I'm not sure, I can't remember the last time I saw one towed, I don't want to say that they've solved self-driving, but they are obviously driving at scale with very minimal, at least real world intervention.
我不确定，我不记得上次看到一辆汽车被拖走是什么时候，我不想说他们已经解决了自动驾驶问题，但他们显然正在大规模驾驶，而最少的干预，至少是现实世界的干预。
You can't tell by looking at the cars how many humans behind the scenes might be helping provide guidance of the car or whatever.
你无法通过观察汽车来判断有多少人可能在幕后帮助提供汽车的指导或其他什么。
But yeah, I would say what's really interesting about Waymo is they've largely solved the self-driving piece, however they've done that, and in a complex environment like San Francisco, and you see them driving in fog and rain and puddles, and it's like, wow, that's pretty cool.
但是，是的，我想说的是，Waymo 真正有趣的是，他们在很大程度上解决了自动驾驶问题，但是他们已经做到了，在旧金山这样的复杂环境中，你看到他们在雾、雨和水坑中行驶，就像，哇，这太酷了。
John Mark Nickels: But I think what Waymo was learning, and I was trying help them learn is that building a self-driving car on a test track is a very different problem statement than scaling a fleet of thousands of cars.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但我认为 Waymo 正在学习的东西，我试图帮助他们学习的是，在测试跑道上制造自动驾驶汽车与扩展数千辆汽车的车队是一个非常不同的问题陈述。
And how do you operate them, clean them, charge them, maintain them, and then how do you build the ride share network?
你如何操作它们、清洁它们、充电它们、维护它们，然后你如何构建乘车共享网络？
It's like, okay, well we got to build an app and we got to acquire users and do classic growth stuff and think about that marketplace and matching and pricing and those are very different skills.
就像，好吧，我们必须构建一个应用程序，我们必须获取用户并进行经典的增长工作，并考虑市场、匹配和定价，这些是非常不同的技能。
And so it's like a warning that those are different things.
这就像一个警告，表明这些是不同的事情。
John Mark Nickels: And trying to hire for that and build culture around that was hard, honestly.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯（John Mark Nickels）：老实说，尝试为此招聘人员并围绕此建立文化是很困难的。
It's just like you're kind of a different thing than the host organism.
就好像你与宿主有机体有些不同一样。
Most of the host organism is just obsessed with perception and planning and all the core autonomy pieces and you're like, the commercialization people there, "Well, now we've going to make money with this thing." That's why I think that's an example where your overall vision would say Waymo is to build Waymo One.
大多数宿主生物体只是沉迷于感知和规划以及所有核心自主部分，而你就像那里的商业化人员一样，“好吧，现在我们要用这个东西赚钱。”这就是为什么我认为这是一个例子，你的总体愿景会说 Waymo 是建立 Waymo One。
Just be mindful that it's more than just one.
请注意，它不仅仅是一个。
There's multiple pillars of that.
这有多个支柱。
There's the self-driving piece, there's getting a lot of cars at scale, financing them, operating the fleet, getting the demand, filling the cars with people, and then it has to all come together.
在自动驾驶方面，需要大规模生产大量汽车、为其融资、运营车队、获取需求、给汽车装满人，然后所有这些都必须整合在一起。
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
Yeah.
是的。
It's so interesting that your title is Lead Product for Commercialization of Autonomous Ride Hailing at Waymo, and now it's come full circle where at Uber, that's going to be in a sense the way that people call Waymo.
很有趣的是，你的头衔是 Waymo 自动驾驶叫车商业化的领先产品，现在在 Uber 又回到了原点，从某种意义上说，这将类似于人们对 Waymo 的称呼。
And so it's so interesting that you've seen both sides of this.
所以这很有趣，你已经看到了这件事的两面。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
Well, we'll see what happens.
好吧，我们看看会发生什么。
I think Uber, it got out of the autonomy business when it divested Autonomous Technologies Group or Advanced Technologies Group.
我认为优步在剥离自主技术集团或先进技术集团时就退出了自主业务。
And right now our stated strategy is to be an aggregator.
现在我们既定的战略是成为一个聚合者。
So it's like, we are partnering with Waymo, with Cruise, Motional, others in China, et cetera.
就好像我们正在与 Waymo、Cruise、Motional 以及中国的其他公司等合作。
And then the idea is to have every vehicle on the platform really, right?
然后我们的想法是让平台上的每辆车都真正上架，对吗？
Autonomous or not.
自主与否。
And then use the power of the platform, we have this big demand base, we have a lot of riders.
然后利用平台的力量，我们有这么大的需求基础，我们有很多骑手。
John Mark Nickels: And so I think what you're seeing is, Waymo and Cruise and others are like, "Okay, now that we've developed autonomy, what's the path to profitability for us?" And so they can go it alone and try to build a ride-share network.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以我认为你所看到的是，Waymo 和 Cruise 以及其他公司会说，“好吧，既然我们已经发展了自主性，那么我们的盈利之路是什么？”因此他们可以单干并尝试建立一个乘车共享网络。
And Waymo is doing that with Waymo One, but it turns out it takes a while.
Waymo 正在通过 Waymo One 做到这一点，但事实证明这需要一段时间。
It's funny, I feel like engineers too are always skeptical of why other people's engineering problems take so much work.
很有趣，我觉得工程师也总是怀疑为什么其他人的工程问题需要这么多工作。
There'd be engineers at Waymo would be like, "Why does Uber have so many thousands of engineers?
Waymo 的工程师会说，“为什么 Uber 有这么多工程师？
How hard can it be to build a ride-share app?"
开发一款拼车应用有多难？”
John Mark Nickels: But when you look at what made Uber successful, what we've been perfecting for the last decade, A, the marketplace tech that I alluded to earlier, but also how we manage a large rider base and doing rider support and driver support and logistics and all of the helping finance electric vehicles and working with regulators and cities and making sure we have safe and accessible pickup points and on and on and on.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但是，当你看看 Uber 成功的原因，我们在过去十年中一直在完善的东西，A，我之前提到的市场技术，以及我们如何管理庞大的乘客基础、提供乘客支持、司机支持和物流，以及所有帮助电动汽车融资的方式，以及与监管机构和城市合作，确保我们拥有安全且方便的接送点等等。
And those are all the depth of the iceberg that you don't really realize or think of when you're like, "Oh, I can just build a ride-share app." Right?
当你想“哦，我可以构建一个乘车共享应用程序”时，这些都是你没有真正意识到或想到的冰山深处。正确的？
Tesla publishes their sigma design and some earnings report and everyone goes crazy like, "Wow, okay, well I don't want to bet against Elon because that sounds scary," but there is more to it than just the app and the autonomy.
特斯拉发布了他们的西格玛设计和一些收益报告，每个人都疯狂地说，“哇，好吧，好吧，我不想与埃隆打赌，因为这听起来很可怕”，但它不仅仅是应用程序和自主权。
John Mark Nickels: So yeah, I think these companies will have an interesting question.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，我认为这些公司会有一个有趣的问题。
Do they go alone, build their own ride-share network to capture all the value, or do they say, "Well, I could just work with Uber and have a faster path to high utilization of the vehicles," which unlocks financing and more vehicles and that gets them to scale faster?
他们是单打独斗，建立自己的乘车共享网络来获取所有价值，还是说，“好吧，我可以与 Uber 合作，以更快的方式实现车辆的高利用率”，从而释放融资和更多车辆，并让他们更快地扩大规模？
And so if you look at the landscape right now, it's a bit of both, right?
所以如果你看看现在的情况，两者兼而有之，对吗？
Waymo is obviously working with Uber in Phoenix and we just announced Cruise will come back to some city next year I think, but Waymo is also still building their own thing, so they're kind of hedging their bets at the moment.
Waymo 显然正在与 Uber 在凤凰城合作，我们刚刚宣布 Cruise 明年将回到某个城市，但 Waymo 仍在构建自己的东西，所以他们目前正在对冲自己的赌注。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to take us to a recurring segment on the podcast that I call Contrarian Corner.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想带我们看看播客上的一个经常出现的片段，我称之为“逆向角”。
I feel like you're going to have a good answer here.
我觉得你在这里会得到一个很好的答案。
What's something that you believe that most other people don't believe?
有什么事情是你相信但大多数人不相信的？
John Mark Nickels: One is back to being aware of your internal state and allowing emotions and thoughts is...
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我们要重新意识到自己的内部状态，并允许情绪和想法......
Emotions in the workplace, a lot of people have the thing of like, "Well, there's no need for emotion in the workplace.
职场中的情绪，很多人都有这样的想法：“好吧，职场中不需要情绪。
We're going to be logical.
我们要合乎逻辑。
We're going to be data-driven.
我们将由数据驱动。
Keep your feelings at home.
把你的感情留在家里。
Just show up and presentation J.M.
只需出现并演示 J.M.
Mode." And I guess in my experience, there's this thing around whole body intelligence and whole body, yes, which is yes, there is signal from the head and logic and data and left brain reasoning are amazing and it could be great, but there's also heart and gut.
模式。”我想根据我的经验，全身智能和全身都有这种东西，是的，是的，有来自头部的信号，逻辑和数据以及左脑推理是惊人的，它可能很棒，但也有心灵和直觉。
And to me, what is an emotion?
对我来说，什么是情感？
It's just energy moving on the body.
这只是能量在身体上移动。
Often it's correlated with a thought too as well.
通常它也与想法相关。
I might have a thought that creates fear and so forth.
我可能有一个会产生恐惧之类的想法。
John Mark Nickels: But to me there's wisdom in emotion and I can start to access noticing them more.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但对我来说，情感蕴藏着智慧，我可以开始更多地关注它们。
Like where do I feel sadness in the body?
比如我身体哪里感到悲伤？
I notice I feel fear in the kind of center of my chest, and then sadness is like a sinking feeling in my stomach.
我注意到我的胸口中央感到恐惧，然后悲伤就像我胃里的一种下沉的感觉。
And I notice when I'm angry, my jaw gets tight and my eyes furrow a little bit.
我注意到，当我生气时，我的下巴会绷紧，眼睛会皱起来。
And so those are common ones, but you may have your own little signatures of you pick up where is joy, where is creative energy?
这些都是常见的，但你可能有自己的小签名，你发现快乐在哪里，创造力在哪里？
Where is fear or sadness, anger?
恐惧、悲伤、愤怒在哪里？
And then noticing those in a meeting or in a conversation or review.
然后在会议、对话或评论中注意到那些人。
And actually if you're willing, even just voice it to other people, that's like the next step.
事实上，如果你愿意，即使只是向其他人表达出来，这就像下一步。
But start with just acknowledging it to yourself.
但首先要向自己承认这一点。
John Mark Nickels: And so for me, the wisdom of emotions is fear is something wants to be paid attention to.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以对我来说，情感的智慧是恐惧是值得关注的事情。
There can be the saber-toothed tiger is not really Dara disapproving of me, whatever.
无论如何，剑齿虎并不是真的达拉不喜欢我。
I shouldn't be afraid of that.
我不应该害怕这个。
But there are times where fear is applicable.
但有时也会出现恐惧。
There might be fear around, let's say back at Waymo, you want to be really intentional about safety and you want to be super...
周围可能会有恐惧，让我们回到 Waymo，你想要真正关注安全并且你想要变得超级......
That's one of the things I love about Waymo is they're very committed to having a super strong safety record.
我喜欢 Waymo 的原因之一是他们非常致力于拥有超强的安全记录。
And so there might be fear around did we really consider all the edge cases of what might happen if a dog runs in the street or a ball or child or whatever, and you might see wow, fear.
因此，如果我们真的考虑到狗在街上、球或孩子或其他什么东西上奔跑时可能发生的所有边缘情况，你可能会看到哇，恐惧。
It's great.
太棒了。
The wisdom of that is something wants to be paid attention to and listened to.
其中的智慧是希望得到关注和倾听。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
John Mark Nickels: Sadness for me is something wants to be let go of.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：对我来说，悲伤是想要放弃的东西。
There's a mourning, there's a letting go of I had an idea or vision for the future that will no longer be because whatever, something happened, other people don't want to do it, this or that.
有一种哀悼，有一种放弃，我对未来有一个想法或愿景，而这些想法或愿景将不再是因为无论如何，发生了一些事情，其他人不想这样做，这样或那样。
But it could be a vision of a relationship, it could be a vision of what you thought your life would look like, whatever.
但这可能是一段关系的愿景，也可能是你对生活的想象，无论如何。
We all go through those sorts of things.
我们都会经历这样的事情。
John Mark Nickels: And there might be micro-moments of sadness of like, wow, that feature didn't work.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：可能会有一些悲伤的微时刻，比如，哇，这个功能不起作用。
It's like I really wanted it to be successful.
就好像我真的希望它成功一样。
I just let go of that, welcome the sadness.
我只是放手，迎接悲伤。
Anger to me is something is not of service to me or my people or my mission or whatever I'm up to.
对我来说，愤怒是对我、我的人民、我的使命或我所做的任何事情没有帮助的事情。
And so again, that can be a great signal to like, okay, I pay attention to that.
再说一次，这可能是一个很好的信号，让我喜欢，好吧，我注意到了。
I want to change something.
我想改变一些事情。
And then joy is something that wants to be celebrated.
然后快乐就是想要庆祝的事情。
We had a great win.
我们取得了一场伟大的胜利。
We nailed the OKR, we had a great product launch.
我们确定了 OKR，我们推出了出色的产品。
A lot of times we spend too much time moving back into the next, okay, let's set another goal.
很多时候我们花了太多时间回到下一个目标，好吧，让我们设定另一个目标。
It's like, it's okay to stop and celebrate.
就像，可以停下来庆祝一下。
John Mark Nickels: And then creative energy is something wants to be born into the world.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：创造力就是想要诞生在这个世界上的东西。
It's like it's almost like I'm going to birth an idea or a vision or some new product thing and then just tuning into that.
就好像我要诞生一个想法、愿景或一些新产品，然后就将其融入其中。
So yeah, I would say welcome emotions, maybe even talk about them, god forbid, in the workplace.
所以，是的，我会说欢迎情绪，甚至可能在工作场所谈论它们，上帝禁止。
Imagine that instead of having a OKR review where you're behind target and everyone's blaming other people, and you could tell when it's kind of fearful, if someone was just like, "Wow, I noticed that I just feel fear around this." Everyone was like, "Wow, I feel fear too." That would just totally change the tone of the conversation.
想象一下，如果有人说，“哇，我注意到我对此感到恐惧，而不是在 OKR 审查中落后于目标，每个人都在责备其他人，你可以看出什么时候有点害怕。”每个人都说，“哇，我也感到恐惧。”这只会彻底改变谈话的基调。
Lenny Rachitsky: The advice here is bring your emotions into work.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里的建议是将你的情绪带入工作中。
Don't let emotions...
别让情绪...
What most people believe is leave your emotions at home, don't bring your emotions into the workplace, and what you've found is they actually can make you more effective and make your teams more effective.
大多数人认为，把情绪留在家里，不要把情绪带入工作场所，而你发现它们实际上可以让你更高效，让你的团队更高效。
And you even talked about it helps you make decisions in a more intelligent way because your gut and lizard brain almost tells you things that you should pay attention to.
你甚至谈到它可以帮助你以更明智的方式做出决定，因为你的直觉和蜥蜴大脑几乎会告诉你应该注意的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay, so I'm going to close with a question that is rooted in something that you shared with me when we were chatting about this podcast that I think is going to be helpful to a lot of people.
好的，我将以一个问题作为结束语，这个问题源于您在讨论这个播客时与我分享的一些内容，我认为这对很多人都有帮助。
What have you found to be keys to a successful, impactful, rich, fun life?
您认为成功、有影响力、丰富、有趣的生活的关键是什么？
John Mark Nickels: It's a great question, and I think lots of people have different prescriptions for that, and I don't claim to have the one truth around that, but the first thing I would say as a meta observation is I spend a lot of time thinking about objective functions.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：这是一个很好的问题，我认为很多人对此都有不同的处方，我并不声称对此有唯一的真理，但作为元观察我要说的第一件事是我花了很多时间思考目标函数。
We design algorithms to do matching and pricing and think about short-term effects and long-term effects.
我们设计算法来进行匹配和定价，并考虑短期影响和长期影响。
And so I really am ingrained in this idea of we have an objective function for our life.
所以我确实坚信我们的生活有一个目标函数。
And then the problem is that a lot of us aren't conscious of it.
问题是我们很多人都没有意识到这一点。
It's just like an implied OF that you inherited values from your church or community or what your parents valued or what you learned to be good at, and I do this for work and blah, blah, blah, and I'm just kind of bobbing along.
这就像一个暗示，你从你的教会或社区继承了价值观，或者你父母看重的东西，或者你学会擅长的东西，而我这样做是为了工作，等等，等等，我只是随波逐流。
John Mark Nickels: That's why I love Ray Dalio's principle thing where it's like, Hey, write down your values and your principles and get clear on what they are.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：这就是为什么我喜欢雷·达里奥的原则，就像，嘿，写下你的价值观和原则，并弄清楚它们是什么。
Or Clayton Christensen wrote a great book that he's less known for, he's obviously known for Innovator's Dilemma, but he wrote a book called How Will You Measure Your Life?
或者克莱顿·克里斯滕森（Clayton Christensen）写了一本伟大的书，但他不太出名，他显然以创新者的困境而闻名，但他写了一本名为《你将如何衡量你的生活？》的书。
And he was trying to answer this question of, he teaches whatever, MBA students at Harvard, and he's like, "Wow, all these executives are super successful.
他试图回答这个问题，无论他教什么，哈佛大学的 MBA 学生，他都会说，“哇，所有这些高管都超级成功。
They're like Fortune 500 execs.
他们就像财富 500 强的高管。
They're most super successful, but they're all divorced and their kids hate them and their personal lives are a mess.
他们非常成功，但他们都离婚了，他们的孩子讨厌他们，他们的个人生活一团糟。
What's happening?" And so one of the key insights he comes to is like, it's Sunday night and you have the choice of playing with your daughter, or you're reading a book or playing a game, and you have a presentation to Dara on Monday.
发生了什么事？”所以他得出的一个关键见解是，周日晚上，你可以选择和女儿一起玩，或者你正在读书或玩游戏，周一你要向达拉做演示。
And he's like, "Well, I could make those slides a little bit better and I could go practice or knock out some emails," or whatever it is you want to do.
他说，“好吧，我可以把这些幻灯片做得更好一点，我可以去练习或删除一些电子邮件，”或者任何你想做的事情。
John Mark Nickels: And so what he basically found was the type A exec, successful people are very short-term OF driven.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以他基本上发现的是 A 型高管，成功人士都是非常短期的 OF 驱动的。
They're like, "Well, presentation's tomorrow, and that can either go great or okay based on Sunday night." Whereas like, "My daughter will be here, I'll play with her next week." And the problem is that he's getting in this cycle where it's like, okay, you start working every Sunday night and then years and years go by and suddenly you don't have a relationship with your daughter who's now a teenager.
他们会说，“好吧，明天就有演示，根据周日晚上的情况，演示可能会很顺利，也可能还不错。”而就像“我女儿会在这里，我下周会和她一起玩”。问题是，他正在陷入这样的循环，就像，好吧，你开始每个星期天晚上工作，然后年复一年地过去，突然你和现在十几岁的女儿失去了关系。
John Mark Nickels: But I think we're just not conscious of that.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：但我认为我们只是没有意识到这一点。
So to me, the first piece of advice would be get clear on your objective function.
所以对我来说，第一条建议是明确你的目标函数。
And one way that I've gotten clear on it is trying to think about it from future me.
我弄清楚这一点的一种方法是尝试从未来的我身上思考它。
Because five years from now, I'm not going to give a shit if I made the presentation slightly better, but I'm going to care a lot about what kind of relationship I have with my daughters.
因为五年后，我不会在乎我的演示是否稍微好一点，但我会非常关心我和我女儿们的关系。
And that means that the next action, the next thing I do today and tomorrow, those will translate into the relationship with her.
这意味着我今天和明天的下一步行动，下一步，这些将转化为与她的关系。
And I think a lot of us aren't just tuned into that.
我认为我们中的很多人并没有适应这一点。
John Mark Nickels: I love the stoic stuff, being mindful of death, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, all those great ones.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我喜欢坚忍的东西，对死亡的关注，塞内卡，马库斯·奥勒留，所有那些伟大的人。
Not to be morbid, but just again, most of us just aren't really tuned into an awareness that our lives will come to an end.
并不是病态，但我们大多数人并没有真正意识到我们的生命即将结束。
And we try to avoid that and we try to pretend like we're going to live forever and just not think about it.
我们试图避免这种情况，我们试图假装我们会永远活着，只是不去想它。
And the horror of it is that we succeed.
可怕的是我们成功了。
We mostly manage to just go live our life and eat ice cream and go to work and go on vacation and do what we do.
我们大多数时候只是过着自己的生活，吃冰淇淋，去工作，去度假，做我们所做的事情。
And that can lead us to doing things that ultimately don't matter in the long run, and focusing on the wrong things.
这可能会导致我们做一些从长远来看最终无关紧要的事情，并把注意力集中在错误的事情上。
John Mark Nickels: And so to me, it's like an awareness and mindfulness that our lives will come to an end punctuates reality in a way that requires me to rethink my priorities, stop wasting time on things that don't matter with people who matter.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：对我来说，这就像一种意识和正念，我们的生命即将结束，以某种方式强调现实，要求我重新思考我的优先事项，停止把时间浪费在与重要的人无关的事情上。
This relationship, this journey, it will come to an end.
这段关系，这段旅程，终将结束。
I'm actually tearing up and feeling tingly just saying that.
说这句话的时候我真的流泪了，而且感到刺痛。
It's like even right now, come back to it.
就好像现在就回来一样。
How am I going to spend my afternoon?
我要如何度过下午呢？
Am I going to hug my daughters?
我要拥抱我的女儿们吗？
Am I going to spend time with them after work or am I going to do email all night?
我是要下班后花时间和他们在一起还是要整夜处理电子邮件？
What would I wish I had done when I'm in my last breath?
当我咽下最后一口气时，我希望自己做了什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote that I heard once that really stuck with me that I think is going to hit a lot of people really hard, which is that the only people that will remember you working late every night is your kids.
Lenny Rachitsky：我曾经听过一句话，让我印象深刻，我认为这会对很多人造成很大的打击，那就是，唯一会记得你每晚工作到很晚的人就是你的孩子。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
An important reminder.
一个重要的提醒。
J.M., we've covered a lot of stuff.
J.M.，我们已经讨论了很多内容。
Is there anything else that you think might be helpful for people that you want to leave listeners with?
您认为还有什么其他内容可能对您想留给听众的人有帮助吗？
Or we're going to have a lightning round coming up, but before we get that, we ended on a really powerful, impactful note.
或者我们即将迎来一轮闪电回合，但在我们开始之前，我们以一个非常有力、有影响力的音符结束。
Is there anything else along these lines that you think might be helpful for people that you want to leave them with?
您认为在这些方面还有其他什么可能对您想留下的人有帮助吗？
John Mark Nickels: The one thing I'd encourage folks to do out of all of these we talked about is to see if you'd be willing to commit to breaking out of victim consciousness and mentality.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：在我们讨论的所有这些内容中，我鼓励人们做的一件事就是看看你是否愿意致力于摆脱受害者意识和心态。
And it's not to say there aren't victims in the world, there are real injustices and things happening, but most of us, I've experienced, I often can fall into the trap of living my life at the effect of, right?
这并不是说世界上没有受害者，确实存在不公正和事情正在发生，但我们大多数人，我经历过，我经常会陷入生活的陷阱，对吧？
I'm at the effect of other people and what they do.
我受到其他人和他们所做的事情的影响。
I'm at the effect of circumstances like COVID or Trump or whatever.
我受到了新冠疫情或特朗普之类的情况的影响。
I'm at the effect of the conditions and circumstances of life, and I feel like life is happening to me.
我受到生活条件和环境的影响，我感觉生活正在发生在我身上。
John Mark Nickels: And so to me, the most empowering and radical transformation that I've been able to cultivate and develop is shifting from that to a state of I I am willing to take responsibility for how I see the world.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以对我来说，我能够培养和发展的最赋予权力和最根本的转变是从这种状态转变为我愿意为我如何看待世界负责的状态。
And I may not be able to change the weather or the election or all that, but I can change how I'm being in relationship to it and choose to see it as a growth opportunity, as learning, how am I co-creating it, even things that I play a small part in, injustice in the world, how am I perpetuating that and being willing to see the world as I'm the painter of my existence?
我可能无法改变天气或选举或所有这些，但我可以改变我与它的关系，并选择将其视为一个成长机会，作为学习，我如何共同创造它，即使是我在其中扮演一小部分的事情，世界上的不公正，我如何使这种情况永久存在并愿意以我是我存在的画家的方式看待世界？
John Mark Nickels: I think Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning is probably the best example of that.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我认为维克多·弗兰克尔的《人类寻找意义》可能是最好的例子。
He's in a super oppressive situation that is very horrific and tragic, and the way he described his relationship with the people in the camp and the guards, and he given he gave a talk after he was free, the amount of compassion and empathy he had for his oppressors was just amazing.
他处于一种非常可怕和悲惨的超级压迫的境地，他描述自己与营地里的人和警卫的关系的方式，以及他在获释后发表的讲话中，他对压迫者的同情和同情是令人惊讶的。
So I'm like, well, if he can do that in the face of those conditions, I can show up differently in a product review or in a conversation with my partner or meeting or whatever it is.
所以我想，好吧，如果他在面对这些条件时能够做到这一点，我就可以在产品评论或与我的合作伙伴的对话或会议或其他任何事情中以不同的方式表现出来。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I think just that skill alone is such a powerful unlock for a lot of people instead of, here's all the things that I don't have and here's all the things that are setting you back and all the things that are hard for me versus other people.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我认为对于很多人来说，仅凭这项技能就可以解锁如此强大的东西，而不是，这里有我没有的所有东西，这里有所有阻碍你的东西以及所有对我来说与其他人相比困难的东西。
Shifting to, I need to take responsibility for my own success and no one else will.
转向，我需要为自己的成功负责，其他人不会。
And just taking agency is a really powerful thing.
仅仅采取代理是一件非常强大的事情。
It's easier said than done.
说起来容易做起来难。
There's a lot of hardships.
有很多困难。
People have a lot of things that they don't have that other people have that are hurting their career and hurting their ability to be successful, but still, the more you can take responsibility and have agency and the less you have this victim mentality, I 1,000% agree, there's so much power there.
人们有很多别人没有的东西，这些东西会损害他们的职业生涯，损害他们成功的能力，但是，你越能承担责任并拥有代理权，你的受害者心态就越少，我1000%同意，那里有很大的力量。
So that's an awesome lesson to end on.
所以这是一个很棒的教训。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round jam.
至此，我们迎来了非常激动人心的闪电回合比赛。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
John Mark Nickels: In the realm of the soft skills and conscious leadership, the best one is the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Diana Chapman and Jim Dethmer.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯 (John Mark Nickels)：在软技能和有意识领导力领域，最好的一个是戴安娜·查普曼 (Diana Chapman) 和吉姆·德斯默 (Jim Dethmer) 提出的《有意识领导力的 15 项承诺》。
And those were my early coaches and teachers almost 10 years ago, and Diana is still my coach.
这些是我大约10年前早期的教练和老师，戴安娜仍然是我的教练。
So I think that's a fantastic book that we'll go into more detail about some of the things we talked about around fear and threat versus trust and drawing a triangle and all that great stuff.
所以我认为这是一本很棒的书，我们将更详细地讨论我们围绕恐惧和威胁与信任以及绘制三角形和所有这些伟大的东西所讨论的一些事情。
That'd be one that I'd definitely recommend first.
这肯定是我首先推荐的。
Another one more in the content world is I think you had Nancy Duarte on your podcast one point.
内容世界中的另一个问题是，我认为南希·杜阿尔特 (Nancy Duarte) 曾出现在你的播客中。
John Mark Nickels: Or Duarte, sorry.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：或者杜阿尔特，抱歉。
I love her book Resonate.
我喜欢她的书《共鸣》。
I know she has some other ones too, on slide design and stuff.
我知道她还有其他一些关于幻灯片设计之类的东西。
But what was so cool about that, I gave it to PMs all the time when I'm trying to help them develop their communication, storytelling, and presentation skills.
但最酷的是，当我试图帮助产品经理培养沟通、讲故事和演示技能时，我一直把它交给他们。
And she goes through those TED talks and Martin Luther King, I have a dream, and going to the Moon, and basically make the spark line against it to understand this concept of resonance with the audience.
她通过 TED 演讲和马丁·路德·金的演讲，《我有一个梦想》和《登上月球》，基本上通过火花线来理解这个与观众产生共鸣的概念。
It's actually a great skill for, back to vision and north-starring, she said what all these things do is they alternate tension between the world as it is and the world as it might be.
这实际上是一项伟大的技能，回到视觉和北极星，她说所有这些东西的作用是它们在现实世界和可能的世界之间交替紧张。
And it's like, here's that beautiful future of transportation, San Francisco, blah, blah, blah, but here's why it sucks today, all these problems and this and that, but here's how it could look in a few years.
就像，这就是旧金山交通的美好未来，等等，但这就是为什么它今天很糟糕，所有这些问题等等，但这就是几年后它会是什么样子。
John Mark Nickels: And then you're creating that tension and the audience at the end is like sweaty palms and like, "I want to help build that future." What do you need?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：然后你就制造了那种紧张感，最后观众就像手心出汗一样，“我想帮助建设那个未来。”你需要什么？
You need money, you need time, resources, join your company.
你需要钱，你需要时间，资源，加入你的公司。
Great.
太棒了。
So anyway, Resonate, Nancy Duarte, great book.
不管怎样，《共鸣》，南希·杜阿尔特，一本很棒的书。
Those would be some of the top two that I recommend.
这些将是我推荐的前两个。
There's not one specific book, but I really love Alan Watts' books if you're into...
没有一本具体的书，但如果你喜欢的话，我真的很喜欢艾伦·瓦茨的书……
He was one of the first people to articulate and kind of import Buddhism and that sort of Eastern thinking into the West, and he just has a very satirical, comical sort of not taking myself too seriously style and just like the way he explains a lot of those concepts.
他是最早将佛教和东方思想引入西方的人之一，他有一种非常讽刺、滑稽的、不把自己太当回事的风格，就像他解释很多这些概念的方式一样。
So that'd be another one.
那么这将是另一件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: He also has an amazing voice if you listen to recordings of him with music, it's just so fun to listen to.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你听他的音乐录音，他的声音也很棒，听起来很有趣。
John Mark Nickels: Totally.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：完全可以。
Actually, Sam Harris's Waking Up app now has the entire...
事实上，山姆·哈里斯的唤醒应用程序现在拥有整个......
he worked with I think Alan Watts' son.
我认为他和艾伦·沃茨的儿子一起工作。
So the Waking Up app has all 80 or 100 hours of recorded Alan Watts lectures.
因此，Wake Up 应用程序包含艾伦·瓦茨 (Alan Watts) 全部 80 或 100 小时的讲座录音。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my god.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪。
There's YouTube videos.
有 YouTube 视频。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's some awesome YouTube videos of him that are worth watching, we'll link to some of those.
Lenny Rachitsky：他的一些很棒的 YouTube 视频值得观看，我们将链接到其中的一些视频。
And then Nancy Duarte, she shared exactly that lesson on the podcast that we had together.
然后南希·杜阿尔特（Nancy Duarte）在我们一起的播客上分享了这一课。
So if you don't want to read the book and listen to her give this tactic of this way to communicate a vision, you can listen to that episode, we'll link to it.
因此，如果您不想读这本书并听她以这种方式传达愿景的策略，您可以听那一集，我们将链接到它。
Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?
下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的。
The last movie I really enjoyed was Inside Out 2 with my kids, which is very-
我真正喜欢的最后一部电影是和我的孩子们一起看的《头脑特工队 2》，这非常-
Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why you'd love that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我明白你为什么会喜欢这个。
John Mark Nickels: Yes, consistent with the emotional awareness and allowing the different emotional parts and don't want to spoil the movie, maybe everyone hasn't seen it, but it's very simpatico with that lesson of you can't just let one emotion run the show, they all have wisdom.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，与情感意识一致，允许不同的情感部分，不想破坏这部电影，也许每个人都没有看过它，但它非常和蔼可亲，你不能只让一种情感主导表演，他们都有智慧。
On the first one, Sadness, Joy learning that Sadness is necessary.
第一个，悲伤，快乐知道悲伤是必要的。
It's all about integration, but it was beautiful the way kids understand it and it's a way to teach emotional literacy to your kids.
这一切都与整合有关，但孩子们理解它的方式很美好，而且这是教孩子情感素养的一种方式。
So I think what they've done there with those Inside Out movies is just brilliant.
所以我认为他们在《头脑特工队》电影中所做的事情非常出色。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
It could be an app, it could be something physical.
它可以是一个应用程序，也可以是物理的东西。
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, so Eight Sleep is a smart mattress company.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，Eight Sleep 是一家智能床垫公司。
They're on their third or fourth rev now, but it's like a Tempur-Pedic mattress, or you can put their cover on any mattress, but it has a cover that has little tubes of water, and then it has a little computer thing and you fill with water and then an app.
它们现在处于第三或第四转速，但它就像 Tempur-Pedic 床垫，或者你可以将它们的盖子放在任何床垫上，但它有一个带有小管水的盖子，然后它有一个小电脑东西，你可以注满水，然后是一个应用程序。
And basically what you do is you program it and it learns, it has sensors, it can measure your heart rate, your HRV, body temperature, all that, but you're basically trying to program a temperature curve to help you maximize your kind of REM sleep and deep sleep and get more value out of the sleep that you do have.
基本上你所做的就是你对它进行编程，它会学习，它有传感器，它可以测量你的心率、HRV、体温等等，但你基本上是在尝试编程一条温度曲线，以帮助你最大化你的快速眼动睡眠和深度睡眠，并从你所拥有的睡眠中获得更多价值。
John Mark Nickels: And so for me, it's super cool early for deep sleep, and then it warms you up as you want to wake up, which is...
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：所以对我来说，早起深度睡眠非常酷，然后当你想醒来时它会让你暖和起来，这就是……
or an alarm and all that.
或警报等等。
But it's back to my thing about wanting to show up with the right mindset and energy and aliveness.
但这又回到了我想要以正确的心态、精力和活力出现的问题。
Having really high quality sleep has been a really key part of that, is like if I don't sleep well, I didn't get enough sleep or didn't sleep well, you're already starting off on a bad foot.
拥有真正高质量的睡眠是其中的一个非常关键的部分，就像如果我睡得不好，我没有得到足够的睡眠或睡得不好，你已经开始了一个糟糕的脚。
So yeah, if you haven't checked out Eight Sleep, great product.
所以，是的，如果您还没有尝试过“八睡”，这是很棒的产品。
No endorsement fee for me.
我不需要代言费。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's also cool about it is it tracks your sleep.
Lenny Rachitsky：它的另一个很酷的地方是它可以追踪你的睡眠。
It gives you all these stats.
它为您提供所有这些统计数据。
Instead of wearing a ring, and it gives you all these stats about your sleep quality.
它无需佩戴戒指，而是为您提供有关睡眠质量的所有这些统计数据。
And there's this guy, Brian Johnson, I don't know if you follow him, he's like this guy that's trying to stay alive as long as possible, and he had a perfect sleep score for six months in a row to set the record.
还有这个人，布莱恩·约翰逊，我不知道你是否关注他，他就像这个试图尽可能长时间地活着的人，他连续六个月保持完美的睡眠分数，创造了记录。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
He knows what he's doing over there.
他知道他在那里做什么。
Okay, two more questions.
好吧，还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, think of, find useful in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常在工作或生活中回想起、思考并发现它有用？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, I probably have had different ones over the years.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，这些年来我可能有过不同的经历。
The one right now that really serves me is there's this track called Sit Around the Fire by Jon Hopkins, but it's on Spotify, Apple Music, but it's basically music with one of Ram Dass' talks, lesser known talks.
现在真正让我感兴趣的是乔恩·霍普金斯（Jon Hopkins）创作的一首名为《Sit around the Fire》的歌曲，它在 Spotify、Apple Music 上都有，但它基本上是拉姆·达斯（Ram Dass）演讲之一的音乐，不太为人所知的演讲。
And so the mantra that's been really serving me recently is the very first part of that, which is he says, "Beyond all polarities, I am.
因此，最近真正为我服务的口头禅是其中的第一部分，那就是他说，“超越所有极性，我是。
Let the judgments and opinions of the mind be the judgments and opinions of the mind.
让头脑的判断和意见成为头脑的判断和意见。
And you exist behind that." So sometimes I have an abbreviated version of that where I'm noticing I'm activated, I'm clinging to an opinion, I'm arguing with somebody, and I'm just like, "Beyond all polarities."
而你就存在于其背后。”所以有时我有一个简短的版本，我注意到我被激活了，我坚持自己的观点，我与某人争论，我就像，“超越所有极性。”
John Mark Nickels: I do that in front of my kids and they laugh at me like, "Daddy is so weird sometimes."
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我在孩子们面前这样做，他们嘲笑我，就像“爸爸有时很奇怪”。
Lenny Rachitsky: Beyond all polarities, kids.
Lenny Rachitsky：超越所有极性，孩子们。
That's so funny.
太有趣了。
Oh man.
噢，伙计。
There's another Ram Dass line that I often use with my wife, Be Here Now, which is the title of his book that everyone sees with the blue cover.
我经常和妻子一起使用拉姆·达斯的另一句台词“Be Here Now”，这是他那本书的书名，每个人都看到蓝色封面。
And I do that when she's on her phone and we're doing something.
当她打电话并且我们正在做某事时，我就会这样做。
I'm like, "Be here now." And she's like, "Okay, okay.
我想，“现在就在这里。”她说：“好吧，好吧。
I'll put my phone away." Yeah.
我会把手机收起来。”是的。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
I was going to ask you about the line tracking and what you learned from that.
我想问你有关线路跟踪的问题以及你从中学到了什么。
You already shared an awesome lesson from that time.
您已经分享了当时的精彩教训。
So let me ask you something else.
那么让我问你一些别的事情。
I'll ask you about Travis.
我会问你关于特拉维斯的事。
Any crazy, fun, memorable stories of working with Travis Kalanick?
与 Travis Kalanick 合作有什么疯狂、有趣、难忘的故事吗？
However you say his last name, Kalanick, Kalanick?
不过你说他的姓氏，卡兰尼克，卡兰尼克？
John Mark Nickels: Travis Kalanick, yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：特拉维斯·卡兰尼克，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I'll share a quick one that's short but sweet or hilarious to me, and maybe lesser known.
我将分享一个简短但对我来说很甜蜜或搞笑的故事，也许不太为人所知。
So we used to have the Uber office at 1455 Market, and so there was one conference room where we'd often do reviews with Travis, and it wasn't the war room, whatever whenever room it was.
我们过去的 Uber 办公室位于 1455 Market，所以有一间会议室，我们经常和 Travis 一起进行审查，而且它不是作战室，无论它是什么房间。
That was interior and no windows.
那是室内，没有窗户。
So this room had windows overlooking, what was that?
那么这个房间有窗户可以俯瞰，那是什么？
11th street.
11街。
So 11th and Market.
所以 11 号和市场号。
And so we'd have a presentation up on the projector, some big screen we're about to go through something with Travis.
所以我们会在投影仪上进行演示，我们将与特拉维斯一起在一些大屏幕上进行演示。
And reliably, every time he'd come in, he would close the blinds of the windows.
可靠的是，每次他进来时，他都会关上百叶窗。
Everyone like, "Travis, what are we doing?" It's not because there was glare.
每个人都喜欢问“特拉维斯，我们在做什么？”并不是因为有眩光。
They were orthogonal to the screen.
它们与屏幕正交。
And then one time I was like, "Why are you doing that?" He's like, "I'm pretty sure Lyft has drones outside the windows of our office and they're spying on our presentation."
然后有一次我就想，“你为什么要这么做？”他说，“我很确定 Lyft 在我们办公室的窗外有无人机，他们正在监视我们的演示。”
John Mark Nickels: I was like, whoa, your competitor paranoia runs deep, man.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：我当时想，哇，你的竞争对手的偏执根深蒂固，伙计。
Okay.
好的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Anyway.
反正。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's hard to mention Lyft doing that.
Lenny Rachitsky：很难提及 Lyft 这样做。
I could see Uber doing that to Lyft.
我可以看到 Uber 对 Lyft 也这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: Old Uber.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：老优步。
Yeah.
是的。
Wow.
哇。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
It's like coaches in the NFL that are covering their lips always when they're telling and giving plays, just like, I wonder if people actually do that.
这就像 NFL 的教练在讲课和表演比赛时总是捂住嘴唇，就像，我想知道人们是否真的这样做。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Yeah, I get that.
是的，我明白了。
It's like high stakes.
这就像高风险。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
Might be a drone out there.
那里可能有一架无人机。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
J.M., what a roller coaster of a conversation.
J.M.，谈话的过程就像坐过山车一样。
We covered so much ground.
我们涵盖了很多领域。
I can't even name all the things we covered.
我什至无法说出我们所涵盖的所有内容。
So let me just ask you two final questions.
所以让我问你们最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online and reach out if they want to work with you?
如果人们想与您合作，可以在哪里在线找到您并联系您？
I know you work with folks, talk about that.
我知道你和人们一起工作，谈谈这个。
And then finally, how can listeners be useful to you?
最后，听众如何对你有用？
John Mark Nickels: Yeah, yeah.
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：是的，是的。
So I am occasionally on Twitter @NickelsJM, but I don't tweet a lot, but maybe I should start.
所以我偶尔会在推特上@NickelsJM，但我不经常发推文，但也许我应该开始。
But the best way to find more about my thoughts and thinking on the soft skill stuff is a website called rhythmofbeing.com.
但要了解更多关于我的想法和对软技能的思考，最好的方法是访问一个名为 Rhythmofbeing.com 的网站。
And I've got some blog posts and stuff there that go into detail on some of these things.
我有一些博客文章和内容，详细介绍了其中一些事情。
And yeah, I do a little bit of coaching on the side with folks.
是的，我也和大家一起做一些辅导工作。
I do very little now.
我现在做的很少。
My day job at Uber and my night job with my kids takes up most of my waking hours.
我白天在 Uber 的工作和晚上照顾孩子的工作占据了我醒着的大部分时间。
But for the right person and a few select spots, I can make time.
但对于合适的人和几个选定的地点，我可以腾出时间。
But yeah, that's the best place to find me, is rhythmofbeing.com.
但是，是的，这是找到我的最佳地点，那就是 Rhythmofbeing.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then how can listeners be useful to you?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么听众如何对你有用呢？
John Mark Nickels: Well, in the spirit of welcoming and embracing feedback, you could most be useful by reaching out, telling me what resonated, what didn't, what was useful, where did your energy go up when I talked, and where did your energy go down?
约翰·马克·尼克尔斯：嗯，本着欢迎和拥抱反馈的精神，你可以通过主动联系我，告诉我什么引起了共鸣，什么没有，什么有用，当我讲话时你的能量在哪里上升，以及你的能量在哪里下降，这对你来说是最有用的？
Because that to me is a signal of where I'm back to tracking the life, where's the juice?
因为这对我来说是一个信号，表明我要回到追踪生活的地方，果汁在哪里？
And then that way in the future when I do other versions of this or other conversations, I'll pay more attention to the energy up stuff and go more there, and the energy down was like, okay, maybe that wasn't as interesting or didn't resonate.
这样，将来当我进行其他版本的对话或其他对话时，我会更多地关注能量上升的东西，并更多地关注那里，而能量下降的感觉就像，好吧，也许那不那么有趣或没有引起共鸣。
Great.
伟大的。
No problem.
没问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: J.M., thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：J.M.，非常感谢您来到这里。
Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。