What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (The Beautiful Mess)

John Cutler: Let's say you're a founder and you're trying to decide, should I invest more on processes, or should I invest more in people.

约翰·卡特勒：假设您是一位创始人，您正在尝试决定是应该在流程上投入更多，还是应该在人员上投入更多。

The first thing is introspection.

首先是内省。

What do you believe in, really?

你到底相信什么？

What do you believe in, and what do the people around you believe in, and how can you be a coherent leader?

你相信什么，你周围的人也相信什么，你怎样才能成为一个一致的领导者？

And you know what?

你知道吗？

You can nudge yourself a little bit away from your happy plate, but you're not going to go super far.

你可以稍微让自己远离快乐的盘子，但你不会走得太远。

You're not going to go from like a process-driven meritocratic, X, Y, Z person all the way to like I'm going to start a collectivist company where everything is sort of a consensus decision to do that.

你不会从一个流程驱动的精英主义、X、Y、Z 人一路发展到像我要创办一家集体主义公司，在这家公司中，一切都是共识决定。

You're not going to do that.

你不会那样做的。

But I think it starts with self-awareness and then that's how people form their authentic leadership vibe, and then they flex a little bit and then they embrace other perspectives.

但我认为这始于自我意识，然后人们就是如何形成真正的领导氛围，然后他们稍微灵活一点，然后接受其他观点。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们建立和扩展当今最成功公司的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is John Cutler.

今天我的客人是约翰·卡特勒。

John is one of the most prolific, beloved, and longtime writers and sharers of product wisdom online, and as you'll hear at the start of this episode, thanks to his really unique role at Amplitude, he's worked with a large percentage of product teams and product managers around the world.

John 是最多产、最受喜爱、最长期的在线产品智慧作家和分享者之一，正如您在本集开头所听到的那样，由于他在 Amplitude 的独特角色，他与世界各地的大部分产品团队和产品经理合作过。

I've learned a lot from John's writings over the years and share his stuff often, and so it was a real honor to chat in depth with John.

多年来，我从约翰的著作中学到了很多东西，并经常分享他的东西，所以很荣幸能与约翰深入交谈。

I anticipated this would happen and it happened, this ended up being the longest episode I've done yet, and honestly, we could have kept going for a lot longer.

我预料到会发生这种情况，而且它确实发生了，这最终成为我迄今为止完成的最长的一集，老实说，我们本来可以持续更长时间。

Lenny: We chat about what differentiates the highest performing product teams from less well performing product teams, what it takes to create real change within a company, why you should be skeptical of frameworks and tools that you read about online, why all underperforming teams fail in similar ways but high performing teams succeed in many different ways, and so much more.

Lenny：我们讨论了绩效最高的产品团队与绩效较差的产品团队的区别，如何在公司内部创造真正的变革，为什么你应该对网上读到的框架和工具持怀疑态度，为什么所有绩效不佳的团队都会以类似的方式失败，而高绩效的团队会以多种不同的方式取得成功，等等。

I am confident you will love this episode and I cannot wait for you to hear it.

我相信您会喜欢这一集，我迫不及待地想让您听到它。

With that, I bring you John Cutler after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了约翰·卡特勒 (John Cutler)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

莱尼：这一集是由 Merge 为您带来的。

Every product manager knows the pain of slowing product velocity when developers struggle to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员努力构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品速度减慢的痛苦。

Merge's unified API can remove this blocker from your roadmap.

Merge 的统一 API 可以从您的路线图中消除这个障碍。

With one API, your team can add over 150 HR, ATS, accounting, ticketing, and CRM integrations right into your product.

通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 150 多个 HR、ATS、会计、票务和 CRM 集成直接添加到您的产品中。

You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.

您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。

Merge's integration speed up the product development process for companies like Ramp, Drata, and many other fast-growing and established companies, allowing them to test their features at scale without having to worry about a never-ending integration roadmap.

Merge 的集成加快了 Ramp、Drata 等公司以及许多其他快速发展和成熟公司的产品开发流程，使他们能够大规模测试其功能，而不必担心永无止境的集成路线图。

Save your engineers countless hours and expedite your sales cycle by making integration offerings your competitive advantage with Merge.

通过 Merge 使集成产品成为您的竞争优势，为您的工程师节省无数的时间并加快您的销售周期。

Visit merge.dev/ lenny to get started and integrate up to five customers for free.

请访问 merge.dev/lenny 开始并免费集成最多 5 个客户。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Contentful, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools, or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics, and then set you to North Star metrics, like activation, retention, subscriptions, and payments, and Eppo supports test on the front end, the back end, email marketing, and even machine-learning clients.

Eppo 让您超越基本的点击指标，然后为您设置北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款，并且 Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com, and 10 x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，获取 E-P-P-O.com，并获得 10 倍的实验速度。

Lenny: John Cutler, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：约翰·卡特勒，欢迎来到播客。

John Cutler: Yeah, thanks for having me, Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Lenny: I kind of know you as John Cutler.

莱尼：我知道你是约翰·卡特勒。

I feel weird to call you just John.

我觉得叫你约翰很奇怪。

Do you find that to be true, and also do people call you John Cuttlefish because of your Twitter handle?

你认为这是真的吗？人们是否因为你的 Twitter 用户名而称你为 John Cuttlefish？

John Cutler: Yeah, John Cuttlefish.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，约翰·墨鱼。

There is this, I learned yesterday, there's a DJ, a famous DJ called Jon Cutler without the H, so I don't know if are people into house music knew that.

有这个，我昨天了解到，有一个 DJ，一个著名的 DJ，叫 Jon Cutler，没有 H，所以我不知道喜欢 house 音乐的人是否知道这一点。

Yeah, I think usually it just, like most Johns, it forms into Cutler or JC or something like that, but just John is good, yeah, for now, or Cuttlefish, you could just call me Cuttlefish.

是的，我认为通常它就像大多数约翰一样，它会形成卡特勒或 JC 或类似的东西，但只是约翰很好，是的，现在，或者墨鱼，你可以叫我墨鱼。

That'd be fine.

那就好了。

Lenny: You said that actually, we were talking before this, you said you do some music, so is that DJ actually you?

Lenny：你说其实我们之前就聊过，你说你做一些音乐，那么那个DJ真的是你吗？

John Cutler: No, but that would be really funny.

约翰·卡特勒：不，但这真的很有趣。

In fact, the person yesterday who reached out over Twitter said, "Dude, I don't know what you're doing now in your career, but I really like your earlier work." But that would've been pretty cool to be Jon Cutler, the DJ.

事实上，昨天通过 Twitter 联系的人说：“伙计，我不知道你现在在做什么，但我真的很喜欢你早期的工作。”但如果乔恩·卡特勒 (Jon Cutler) 担任 DJ，那就太酷了。

I wrote songs and played rock music and stuff, not like a house DJ.

我写歌、演奏摇滚音乐之类的，不像 house DJ。

Lenny: Okay, this could be the next phase of your career which we'll talk a bit about.

莱尼：好的，这可能是你职业生涯的下一阶段，我们将对此进行讨论。

But let me just say that I'm so incredibly excited for this conversation.

但我只想说，我对这次谈话感到非常兴奋。

I've been hoping to do this for a long time, and now that you're between gigs, we finally found an opportunity to do this, and I just have a feeling this is going to be one of the longest episodes we've done because there's so much I want to ask you, and there's so much interesting stuff that you've had access to and that I think that you can share.

我一直希望这样做很长一段时间，现在你在演出之间，我们终于找到了这样做的机会，我只是有一种感觉这将是我们做过的最长的剧集之一，因为我想问你很多事情，而且你已经接触到了很多有趣的东西，我认为你可以分享。

So, I hope you're ready for potentially a marathon of an episode.

所以，我希望你已经准备好迎接马拉松式的一集。

John Cutler: Sure, yeah, I'm ready.

约翰·卡特勒：当然，是的，我准备好了。

This is exciting.

这很令人兴奋。

I'm on vacation now between jobs, so this is the highlight of my day.

我现在正在休假，所以这是我一天中的亮点。

We can go all day if you want.

如果你愿意的话我们可以去一整天。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Eight hours.

八个小时。

Let's do it.

我们开始做吧。

Lenny: So, I was thinking that we start with a little bit about this unique role that you had at Amplitude which you just left after about four years, and what's most interesting about it is it give you access to an incredible number of product teams and product managers, unlike anything else I've seen or any other role I've seen before.

Lenny：所以，我想我们先从您在 Amplitude 担任的这个独特角色开始，大约四年后您刚刚离开，最有趣的是它让您可以接触到数量惊人的产品团队和产品经理，这与我见过的任何其他角色或我之前见过的任何其他角色不同。

So, could you just talk a little bit about this role that you had at Amplitude, and what it was like to work with so many product teams and so many product managers?

那么，您能否简单谈谈您在 Amplitude 担任的角色，以及与这么多产品团队和这么多产品经理一起工作的感觉？

John Cutler: Yeah, absolutely.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，绝对如此。

So, first off, I remember almost specifically the day that Sandhya from Amplitude reached out and was sort of floated this idea of this role to me, and I'm so grateful for Sandhya, and Justin, Matt Althauser, Spencer, the whole team, because it was really, it was really kind of a weird role from the beginning.

所以，首先，我几乎清楚地记得那天 Amplitude 的 Sandhya 向我提出了这个角色的想法，我非常感谢 Sandhya、Justin、Matt Althauser、Spencer 以及整个团队，因为从一开始这真的是一个奇怪的角色。

They were starting to get more and more customers who were not traditional startups or kind of growth stage startups showing up, and they needed to figure out how to convey expertise and convey things to the broader product public in a way that would land with those companies, right?

他们开始吸引越来越多的客户，这些客户不是传统的初创公司或成长阶段的初创公司，他们需要弄清楚如何以一种能够吸引这些公司的方式向更广泛的产品公众传达专业知识和内容，对吗？

I guess, kudos to them thinking this weird idea could work.

我想，他们认为这个奇怪的想法可行，值得称赞。

So, I'm really, really grateful for that.

所以，我真的非常非常感激这一点。

John Cutler: But yeah, my official title was product evangelist.

约翰·卡特勒：但是，是的，我的官方头衔是产品布道者。

I don't think that I super fit that role, but that was the title that we had, and basically my job was to wake up every morning and do things that would overlap Amplitude the product, but then help uplevel our customers, sort of uplevel the broader product community.

我不认为我非常适合这个角色，但这就是我们的头衔，基本上我的工作就是每天早上醒来，做一些与 Amplitude 产品重叠的事情，但然后帮助提升我们的客户，某种程度上提升更广泛的产品社区。

I call them current customers and future customers.

我称他们为当前客户和未来客户。

That's how I woke up every day, I'm either talking to a current customer, I'm talking to a future customer.

这就是我每天醒来的方式，我要么与当前的客户交谈，要么与未来的客户交谈。

This product transformation's happening all around the world, just means it's a matter of time, eventually they'll become Amplitude customers, so I should just try to make them awesome and try to help them with different expertise.

这种产品转型正在世界各地发生，这只是时间问题，最终他们将成为 Amplitude 的客户，所以我应该努力让他们变得更出色，并尝试用不同的专业知识来帮助他们。

John Cutler: But my day-to-day was spent a lot advocating for different ways of working, doing coaching, doing workshops.

约翰·卡特勒：但我每天花很多时间倡导不同的工作方式、进行辅导、举办研讨会。

I wrote the North Star Playbook in partnership with Jason who was a co-writer with that.

我与杰森合作编写了《北极星剧本》，杰森也是该剧本的合著者。

We did a lot of one-to-one coaching sessions.

我们进行了很多一对一的辅导课程。

I had these things called product therapy sessions when I would just wake up in the morning and just kind of soak in whatever problem people were having for the day.

当我早上醒来时，我会进行一些称为产品治疗的课程，沉浸在人们当天遇到的任何问题中。

I did meet with hundreds and hundreds of people and did workshops for thousands and thousands of people and talks for more than that, tens of thousands, really, in terms of the talks.

我确实会见了成百上千的人，为成千上万的人举办了研讨会，并为更多的人进行了演讲，实际上，就演讲而言，有数万人参加。

So, it was just a, yeah, crazy experience doing that.

所以，这只是一次，是的，疯狂的经历。

So, the technical details is I predominantly reported into marketing and product marketing, and then I did a stint actually where I was on our product team as we were sort of getting our education efforts going, ultimately we moved that over to customer success, and I went back to marketing.

因此，技术细节是我主要向营销和产品营销报告的，然后我实际上在我们的产品团队中工作了一段时间，因为我们正在进行我们的教育工作，最终我们将其转移到客户成功上，然后我又回到了营销。

So, that's the technical side of it, I reported into marketing.

所以，这就是技术方面的问题，我向营销部门报告了这一点。

John Cutler: But I do remember the day I arrived and probably a couple weeks later, we had our all hands annual kickoff, and there was a big presentation about our goal being the trusted expert, and that still resonates with me the whole time I was there that an evangelist is there to help uplevel the world with trusted expertise, and in a product like analytics product, there's the product analytics, but then there's whole other ways of working that overlap that.

约翰·卡特勒：但我确实记得我到达的那天，可能几周后，我们举行了全体员工的年度启动仪式，有一个关于我们的目标是成为值得信赖的专家的大型演讲，在我在那里的整个时间里，这仍然引起了我的共鸣，一位布道者在那里用值得信赖的专业知识帮助提升世界的水平，在像分析产品这样的产品中，有产品分析，但还有其他与之重叠的工作方式。

So, yeah, generally that was my role.

所以，是的，一般来说这就是我的角色。

It kind of is a crazy role, for sure.

当然，这是一个疯狂的角色。

Lenny: That is wild.

莱尼：那太疯狂了。

You're basically like a free product coach for product team.

你基本上就像产品团队的免费产品教练。

You just come in, help them uplevel the way they build product, and then Amplitude becomes...

你只要进来，帮助他们提升他们构建产品的方式，然后 Amplitude 就变得......

You need to figure out how to work with data, Amplitude can help you be more data informed.

您需要弄清楚如何处理数据，Amplitude 可以帮助您了解更多数据。

I imagine that's kind of the general idea.

我想这就是一般的想法。

John Cutler: Yeah, it's funny, I joke with our professional services team.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，这很有趣，我和我们的专业服务团队开玩笑。

I mean, so if you're a SaaS company, I think sometimes you have a professional services team.

我的意思是，如果你是一家 SaaS 公司，我认为有时你拥有专业的服务团队。

At Amplitude, especially the way that we saw that is companies put money in and that sort of creates skin in the game.

在 Amplitude，特别是我们看到公司投入资金的方式，这在游戏中创造了利益。

They're really paying you less for the professional services and more for the accountability and the access to the expertise.

他们实际上为专业服务支付了更少的费用，而为责任和获得专业知识支付了更多费用。

So, I would joke with Jenna from that team that maybe we should have monetized all these workshops.

因此，我会和该团队的珍娜开玩笑说，也许我们应该将所有这些研讨会货币化。

I know Gibb and other people, they're charging a good chunk for North Star workshops and here we were just kind of doing them for free.

我认识吉布和其他人，他们为北极星研讨会收取了大量费用，而我们在这里只是免费举办。

John Cutler: So, ultimately, maybe there was another strategy there, but that we did those generally for free, and sometimes I kind of stuck my foot in it.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，最终，也许还有另一种策略，但我们通常是免费做这些的，有时我有点坚持其中。

In the middle of the pandemic at one point we were like, "What are we going to do?

在大流行期间，我们一度想，“我们要做什么？

We can't travel for workshops." And I would put in my newsletter, "Hey, anyone want a workshop?" And then suddenly, our sales team, we had to grapple with what are we going to do with these 120 leads, how are we going to work with them.

我们不能去参加研讨会。”我会在时事通讯中添加“嘿，有人想要参加研讨会吗？”然后突然间，我们的销售团队必须努力解决如何处理这 120 个潜在客户，如何与他们合作。

It was funny having to deal with it.

不得不处理它很有趣。

John Cutler: But yeah, in general, this is a unique role.

约翰·卡特勒：但是，总的来说，这是一个独特的角色。

I would definitely consider a SaaS company's think about a role like this, but it's really nuanced.

我肯定会考虑 SaaS 公司对这样的角色的看法，但它确实很微妙。

We can share some links later as I reflected on what we did right and wrong, but ultimately, I think you shouldn't rely on individual people.

当我反思我们做对和做错的事情时，我们可以稍后分享一些链接，但最终，我认为你不应该依赖个人。

You should think of evangelists as almost like concentric circles of your community and some people who just happen to have more expertise.

您应该将布道者视为社区的同心圆，以及一些碰巧拥有更多专业知识的人。

Look, our internal team's amazing, Ibrahim, Justin, and Abbie, and when Sandhya was at the company, and just, everyone's an advocate.

看，我们的内部团队很棒，易卜拉欣、贾斯汀和艾比，当桑迪亚在公司时，每个人都是倡导者。

Everyone's a potential evangelist.

每个人都是潜在的传道者。

It's just that there's only so many hours in the day.

只是一天只有那么几个小时。

So, you could think of your community as just these concentric circles of evangelists and advocates.

因此，您可以将您的社区视为这些布道者和倡导者的同心圆。

It's just like how you design it right that does it.

就像你如何正确设计它一样。

So, yeah, recommended.

所以，是的，推荐。

It's a little tricky, but yeah, it was a cool move to do.

这有点棘手，但是，是的，这是一个很酷的举动。

Lenny: That sounds like a future post, how to do this in a different way where they don't have a John Cutler in place.

莱尼：这听起来像是未来的帖子，如何在没有约翰·卡特勒的情况下以不同的方式做到这一点。

You said you worked with hundreds of teams.

你说你与数百个团队合作。

Maybe just give us some numbers roughly of how many companies have you worked with, how many product managers do you think you've spoken to in this career.

也许只是给我们一些大致的数字，说明您曾与多少家公司合作过，您认为您在这个职业生涯中与多少位产品经理交谈过。

John Cutler: So, I think I did it...

约翰·卡特勒：所以，我想我做到了......

There might have been over the four years, maybe 800 one-on-ones, individual leader one-on-ones.

四年来可能有 800 次一对一的、个人领导者的一对一。

I'm thinking it was at the peak, it was in one year's 150 workshops and then overlapped in the next year, then between 200, but mostly the average maybe let's say three or 400 workshops, a hundred a year.

我认为这是高峰期，一年有 150 个研讨会，然后在第二年重叠，然后在 200 个之间，但大多数情况下平均可能会说 3 或 400 个研讨会，一年 100 个。

It's heavy.

它很重。

And then there was these just general conference talks and other things that we're doing.

然后就是总会大会的演讲和我们正在做的其他事情。

I tried to total, I exported all my Google Calendar invites, I tried to categorize all them at some point, but really also you have to think about it is that what we did with the North Star Playbook, it was truly a team effort at Amplitude.

我试图总计，我导出了所有的 Google 日历邀请，我试图在某个时候对所有邀请进行分类，但实际上你也必须考虑一下我们对 North Star Playbook 所做的事情，这确实是 Amplitude 团队的努力。

John Cutler: We started to have our, I think it was Sandhya who needed to like, we had three days to go in to close a customer and they were looking for us for trusted expertise, and she pulled together this workshop and she came up with these three games of product which is a really tricky and cool way to describe how your North Star inputs and North Star should be, and it started this ball rolling, and then they wrote a blog post about it.

约翰·卡特勒：我们开始有我们的，我认为是桑迪亚需要喜欢，我们有三天的时间去关闭一个客户，他们正在寻找我们值得信赖的专业知识，她组织了这个研讨会，她想出了这三个产品游戏，这是一个非常棘手和很酷的方式来描述你的北极星输入和北极星应该如何，它开始了这个球滚动，然后他们写了一篇关于它的博客文章。

John Cutler: So, if you search North Star, you get to Sandhya's post.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，如果你搜索北极星，你就会找到桑迪亚的帖子。

It's an amazing post, and then our CSM started to learn how to do it, and then we were like, "We should write a playbook for it." And then it got to the point where if you go on LinkedIn, people are like, "We used," and I made a whole point of saying we did not invent this thing, but people will say, "We use Amplitude's North Star framework," and I have to always chime in, like, "No, we did not invent that thing.

这是一篇很棒的文章，然后我们的 CSM 开始学习如何做到这一点，然后我们就想，“我们应该为它写一本剧本。”然后就到了这样的地步，如果你去 LinkedIn，人们会说，“我们使用过”，我明确表示我们没有发明这个东西，但人们会说，“我们使用 Amplitude 的 North Star 框架，”我必须总是插话，比如，“不，我们没有发明那个东西。

You should go to Sean or you should go to any of these people who've done it in the past." But yeah, the whole point is that a lot of this stuff was evolved over time.

你应该去找肖恩，或者你应该去找那些过去做过这件事的人。”但是，是的，重点是很多东西都是随着时间的推移而演变的。

It wasn't just some snap marketing campaign to do it.

这不仅仅是一些快速的营销活动就能做到的。

John Cutler: Same thing are our retention playbooks and engagement playbooks.

约翰·卡特勒：同样的事情还有我们的保留策略和参与策略。

When I arrived at Amplitude, people would send pictures of those playbooks sitting on their desks and people thought, "Oh, it's just this piece of marketing content.

当我到达 Amplitude 时，人们会发送放在办公桌上的这些剧本的照片，人们会想：“哦，这只是营销内容。

How did they pull it together?" I did some research and our CS team developed 110-page bulk of research from working directly with customers around retention engagement, then we had a PM and a great content writer, Archana, zero in and kind of make it palatable, then we did ARC for it.

他们是怎么把它整合到一起的？”我做了一些研究，我们的 CS 团队通过直接与客户合作围绕保留参与度开发了 110 页的大量研究，然后我们有一位 PM 和一位出色的内容作家 Archana，零投入并使其变得可口，然后我们为此做了 ARC。

So, it didn't just magically appear.

所以，它并不是神奇地出现的。

People think that these artifacts that Amplitude has just magically appeared, but they were just...

人们以为这些振幅刚刚神奇出现的神器，其实它们只是……

It's a company filled with passionate experts of these things, and it was like tested, iterated, tested, iterated, expanded, tested, put into motion, put into practice, and that's how you create these kind of franchise cornerstone pieces of content for your company.

这是一家充满了这些事情的热情专家的公司，它就像经过测试、迭代、测试、迭代、扩展、测试、付诸行动、付诸实践，这就是你为你的公司创建这些特许经营基石内容的方式。

You don't just snap your fingers one day.

你不会有一天打响指。

So, anyway, I wanted to point that out.

所以，无论如何，我想指出这一点。

Huge group effort for all these things.

所有这些事情都需要巨大的团队努力。

Lenny: How does it feel to have left Amplitude at this point?

Lenny：此时离开 Amplitude 感觉如何？

I imagine you're going through some rollercoaster emotions.

我想你正在经历一些过山车般的情绪。

John Cutler: Oh geez.

约翰·卡特勒：哦天啊。

Well, the immense amount of gratitude, definitely, mention that, wonderful people, wonderful customers.

嗯，非常感谢，当然，提到这一点，优秀的人，优秀的客户。

Just imagine like if you're a product nerd, one day you're with Amazon, one day you're with Ikea, one day you're with LEGO, one day you're with Intercom, then you're with a two-person startup, and then you're with Figma.

想象一下，如果你是一名产品迷，有一天你在亚马逊，有一天你在宜家，有一天你在乐高，有一天你在 Intercom，然后你在一家两人创业公司，然后你在 Figma。

So, really, once in a lifetime experience to be able to do that.

所以，真的，一生一次的经历能够做到这一点。

In fact, if I had been a paid consultant, I never would've been able to do that.

事实上，如果我是一名付费顾问，我永远无法做到这一点。

Another thing too is that there's this sort of selection bias.

另一件事是存在这种选择偏差。

If you're a consultant, people come to you to work with you, but often I just had to talk to whatever team wanted access to expertise at Amplitude, not necessarily me.

如果你是一名顾问，人们会来找你一起工作，但通常我只需要与任何想要获得 Amplitude 专业知识的团队交谈，而不一定是我。

So, I didn't get to dictate A lot of times the conversation.

所以，很多时候我并没有口述谈话。

It's like, shit, I'm not doing a very good job here.

就像，妈的，我在这里做得不太好。

This person thinks in a very different way to do that.

这个人以一种非常不同的方式思考来做到这一点。

John Cutler: So, yeah, a lot of gratitude.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，是的，非常感激。

I would say it got really heavy a lot in the sense that my son was born, three months later, I start the job, and then the pandemic kicks in, and every day you're absorbing just attention from teams.

我想说的是，从我儿子出生的意义上来说，这真的很沉重，三个月后，我开始工作，然后大流行开始了，每天你都在吸引团队的注意力。

You're meeting leaders who are about to leave.

你正在会见即将离开的领导人。

Five days later, you're meeting people who are trying to save their team from the pandemic, imploding everything they're doing.

五天后，你会遇到一些人，他们试图将自己的团队从疫情中拯救出来，但他们所做的一切都被毁掉了。

Yeah, I'm joke about the product therapy thing, but I would finish the day at 2:00 or 3:00 and then have to do another one.

是的，我对产品疗法的事情开玩笑，但我会在 2:00 或 3:00 结束一天，然后必须再做一次。

Wake up at 5:00 to do an EMEA workshop, 5:00 to 7:00, be two in workshop, then take a break, then do another two-hour workshop, and then talk to a leader about how everything was going to explode, and then another leader.

5:00 起床参加 EMEA 研讨会，5:00 到 7:00，两人一起参加研讨会，然后休息一下，然后再进行一个两小时的研讨会，然后与一位领导者谈论一切将如何爆炸，然后与另一位领导者交谈。

And then I was still on a team in Amplitude, so I might go to my own meeting where we're working through our own challenges, and then it's 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon.

然后我还在 Amplitude 的一个团队中，所以我可能会去参加我自己的会议，我们正在解决我们自己的挑战，然后是下午 4:00 或 5:00。

I'm done.

我受够了。

Oh, to be able to do that.

哦，能够做到这一点。

John Cutler: And then I think it also left me with a couple key lessons we could probably go into later when we're doing it.

约翰·卡特勒：我认为这也给我留下了一些重要的教训，我们稍后在做这件事时可能会学到这些。

One, you are talking to a bunch of different companies, achieving the almost similar results in very, very different ways.

第一，你正在与一群不同的公司交谈，以非常非常不同的方式实现几乎相似的结果。

They behave in different ways, the context in the pandemic or the economy.

在大流行或经济背景下，他们的行为方式不同。

You would see the pandemic kick in and then you would talk to 50 companies that were dealing with the ramifications of it.

你会看到疫情爆发，然后你会与 50 家正在应对其影响的公司进行交谈。

So, it's kind of funny, I joked with someone at Amplitude, they're like, "We were going through our own shit," and I'm like, "Yeah, and I've seen how 50 other companies are going through their own shit," where this is you're doing it.

所以，这有点有趣，我和 Amplitude 的某人开玩笑，他们说，“我们正在经历自己的狗屎”，我说，“是的，我已经看到其他 50 家公司正在经历他们自己的狗屎”，这就是你正在做的事情。

So, the power of context.

所以，语境的力量。

John Cutler: The regional differences were so fascinating.

约翰·卡特勒：地区差异是如此令人着迷。

I was on with a teen that was based in India and just the passion and curiosity.

我和一位来自印度的青少年在一起，充满了激情和好奇心。

There was not one jaded person in the room.

房间里没有一个疲惫的人。

There was not one person like, "Been there, done that.

没有一个人会说：“去过那里，做过那件事。

When's the performance review cycle ending?" or anything like that.

绩效考核周期什么时候结束？”或类似的东西。

It was just all-out passion and hunger for information.

这只是对信息的全力以赴的热情和渴望。

So, those days were amazing.

所以，那些日子真是太棒了。

So, yeah, you talk a lot about it, but it definitely, it feels like a relief in some ways because the amount of tension to do it.

所以，是的，你谈论了很多，但确实，在某些方面感觉像是一种解脱，因为这样做的压力很大。

And so, for my next plan actually what I'm doing is I'm going to work at Toast in a couple weeks, and I've been in touch with a leader there, Craig Daniel, for a long time, kind of really liked what he did at Drift.

所以，对于我的下一个计划，实际上我正在做的是几周后我将在 Toast 工作，而且我已经与那里的领导者 Craig Daniel 保持了很长一段时间的联系，我真的很喜欢他在 Drift 所做的事情。

John Cutler: But I think that what I realized over the course of these four years is that I wanted to pivot back to help put most of my energy into helping my own company.

约翰·卡特勒：但我认为，在这四年中我意识到，我想重新转向，将大部分精力投入到帮助我自己的公司上。

They're growing super fast, so the numbers are in the hundreds of everything or in the thousands of everything, and they're not just the POS business.

它们的增长速度非常快，因此数量达到数百或数千，而且它们不仅仅是 POS 业务。

They've got these different businesses, like guest services and back office stuff and things.

他们有不同的业务，比如客户服务和后台办公等。

Amplitude is a super horizontal, if you think about it, it's almost like a diagonal, and so it made your head spin, and I kind of wanted to go back to a vertical SaaS.

Amplitude 是一个超级水平的，如果你仔细想想，它几乎就像一条对角线，所以它让你头晕目眩，我有点想回到垂直的 SaaS。

There's a company here in Santa Barbara called AppFolio that I like working at, and I really had a soft spot for vertical SaaS, but I'm thinking put my energy into an internal team for a little bit to pivot back into that.

圣巴巴拉有一家名为 AppFolio 的公司，我喜欢在其中工作，而且我确实对垂直 SaaS 情有独钟，但我正在考虑将我的精力投入到内部团队中，以便重新转向这一领域。

And so, I'll be helping enable product teams and sort of doing what I was doing, but within a company as well.

因此，我将帮助支持产品团队并做我正在做的事情，但也在公司内部。

So, it's going to be an interesting shift.

所以，这将是一个有趣的转变。

Lenny: You touched on so many topics that I want to dig further into, and you also talked about where you're heading next, which I was going to ask, so that's great.

莱尼：你谈到了很多我想进一步探讨的话题，你也谈到了你下一步要去哪里，这是我要问的，所以这很好。

Thank you for covering all that.

感谢您报道这一切。

By the way, I was just going to also say, lucky Toast, wow, to get John Cutler.

顺便说一句，我也想说，幸运吐司，哇，得到了约翰·卡特勒。

Go them.

去他们吧。

John Cutler: Oh, lucky me.

约翰·卡特勒：哦，我很幸运。

I mean, Jesus, Toast is this gem.

我的意思是，天哪，吐司就是这颗宝石。

I just was joking with Craig the other day.

前几天我只是和克雷格开玩笑。

I was like, "I did not know all that stuff was going on at Toast."

我当时想，“我不知道 Toast 发生了那么多事情。”

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So, before we dig into some of the stuff that you brought up like cultural differences between companies, what the best teams are doing differently, things like that, I actually, and you noticed, I asked on Twitter what I should ask you.

因此，在我们深入研究您提出的一些问题之前，例如公司之间的文化差异、最好的团队正在做哪些不同的事情等，实际上，您也注意到了，我在 Twitter 上问了我应该问您什么。

You have a lot of fans on Twitter and there's a ton of questions, and one actually got pretty spicy and I want to touch on it briefly.

你在 Twitter 上有很多粉丝，也有很多问题，其中一个问题实际上非常尖锐，我想简单地谈谈它。

This guy, Jason Cohen pointed out that a lot of the stuff you share online in your newsletter and tweets and things like that, it often doesn't have a clear recommendation of here's what you should do or concrete piece of advice you could take away.

贾森·科恩（Jason Cohen）这个人指出，你在时事通讯和推文等中在线分享的很多内容，通常没有明确建议你应该做什么，也没有你可以借鉴的具体建议。

It's kind of messy which is appropriate because your newsletter is called A Beautiful Mess.

有点乱，这很恰当，因为您的时事通讯被称为“美丽的混乱”。

And so, my question to you is why have you found that you like to embrace the mess in your writing and your thinking and your advice?

所以，我问你的问题是，为什么你发现你喜欢接受你的写作、你的想法和你的建议中的混乱？

John Cutler: I was reflecting that the newsletter, it's almost like an emo band, The Beautiful Mess, it's so angsty.

约翰·卡特勒：我在想时事通讯，它几乎就像一个情绪摇滚乐队，The Beautiful Mess，它是如此焦虑。

It couldn't have been more...

简直不能更……

If I had a band, I did not have an emo band when I was 16, but if I did, I would've called it The Beautiful Mess.

如果我有一支乐队，我 16 岁时还没有一支 emo 乐队，但如果有的话，我会把它称为“The Beautiful Mess”。

So, it's probably pretty consistent with personality to do those things.

所以，做这些事情可能非常符合个性。

I mean, I actually really appreciated Jason pointing that out, and in fact, at the end of this year, I put this post out to people saying, "Hey, here are things I'm grappling with, like the actionability of the content that I put out there, diversity of product advice, it's important to me," and then what it's like to just be a weirdo.

我的意思是，我真的很感谢杰森指出这一点，事实上，在今年年底，我向人们发布了这篇文章，说：“嘿，这些是我正在努力解决的事情，比如我在那里发布的内容的可操作性，产品建议的多样性，这对我来说很重要，”然后是作为一个怪人的感觉。

We all have our weird freak things to do these things.

我们都有一些奇怪的东西来做这些事情。

And so, what does it mean to embrace those things?

那么，拥抱这些东西意味着什么呢？

So, it was really timely I thought that Jason put that out there, and so maybe I'll give a little background about the newsletter and what I was looking for that.

所以，我认为杰森把它放在那里真的很及时，所以也许我会提供一些有关时事通讯的背景知识以及我正在寻找的内容。

John Cutler: And so, I think that the first thing that I did was four years ago, I kind of scanned the product advice landscape and I noticed three things.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，我认为我做的第一件事是四年前，我扫描了产品建议的前景，我注意到了三件事。

First, there's sort of three perspectives that pervaded, and again, I just want to make a huge caveat, this is not a judgment on any of these particular perspectives.

首先，存在着三种观点，再次强调，我只是想提出一个巨大的警告，这并不是对任何这些特定观点的判断。

It's more like I noticed a lot of it.

更像是我注意到了很多。

And the first was that to be successful, number one, maybe success is tools, skills, mindset.

第一个是要成功，第一，也许成功就是工具、技能和心态。

So, that's kind of one group of particular things.

所以，这是一组特定的事物。

The second that in terms of worldviews, we mentioned international worldviews too, but there was a high percentage of product advice that was kind of grounded where you think it would be grounded.

第二个是在世界观方面，我们也提到了国际世界观，但有很大比例的产品建议是有根据的，你认为它会有根据。

So, it was grounded in this idea of meritocracy.

因此，它是建立在精英管理理念的基础上的。

Success is primarily about merit, very highly individualistic, and we don't realize that in the US until you do meetings with other teams, just how individualistic we can be when it comes to how we think about teams should be set up and stuff.

成功主要取决于功绩，非常个人主义，在美国，直到你与其他团队开会，我们才意识到，当涉及到如何组建团队等问题时，我们可以多么个人主义。

John Cutler: And then I think the third thing I realized was that it was very often very context free, and I mean that actually in the nicest way.

约翰·卡特勒：然后我认为我意识到的第三件事是它通常与上下文无关，我的意思是实际上以最好的方式。

It was optimized to make sure that it could be actionable, that someone could take that away.

它经过优化，以确保它是可行的，有人可以把它拿走。

That's what I really like about the content that you put out there, and I like about a lot of the guests on the podcast.

这就是我真正喜欢你在那里发布的内容的原因，我也喜欢播客上的很多嘉宾。

They kind of lay it out in those particular things.

他们把它放在那些特定的事情上。

And so, to kind of go through, yeah, those tools, skills, mindset, that makes sense, right?

所以，是的，回顾一下这些工具、技能、心态，这是有道理的，对吗？

Who does not want tools to be better?

谁不希望工具变得更好？

In fact, a lot of the podcasts I like, we can get into that later, are like, "We're going to give you the tools and tactics that the best people do." So, I really like that kind of stuff as well.

事实上，我喜欢的很多播客，我们可以稍后再讲，都是这样的，“我们将为你提供最优秀的人所擅长的工具和策略。”所以，我也非常喜欢这类东西。

John Cutler: The second part of that is this idea of success be mostly about individual skills in jobs.

约翰·卡特勒：第二部分是成功的理念主要取决于工作中的个人技能。

So, this idea of great leaders, high performing teams, 10 x people, kind of go on and on.

所以，伟大的领导者、高绩效团队、10 个人的想法一直在延续。

And then the product mindset stuff which is a little bit like you have it or you don't, or you develop or you don't.

然后是产品心态的东西，有点像你有或没有，或者你开发或没有。

It's very mysterious.

非常神秘。

So, again, I'm going to go through these things and then think about how they inspire me.

因此，我将再次回顾这些事情，然后思考它们如何激励我。

Part of me was like, "Okay, there's a lot of that stuff, but maybe not as much stuff kind of unraveling the dynamics that happen behind those things."

我的一部分感觉是，“好吧，有很多这样的东西，但也许没有那么多东西可以揭示这些事情背后发生的动态。”

John Cutler: So, the meritocracy stuff and the individualism stuff, it's basically the people rise to the top, they try the hardest, they work the hardest, the best in companies employ them.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，精英管理和个人主义的东西，基本上是人们升到最高层，他们最努力，他们最努力，公司里最优秀的人雇用他们。

There's top tier companies, there's second tier companies.

有顶级公司，有二线公司。

So, there's this very hierarchical view, and as I started to also dig in more into the stuff in Amplitude, I was like, "Wait, there's something right and wrong about this at the same time, there's something true but not true at the same time." So, that's something that I wanted to be able to explore in doing it.

所以，这是一种非常分层的观点，当我开始更多地挖掘 Amplitude 中的内容时，我就想，“等等，这件事同时存在一些正确和错误的东西，有些东西是真实的，但同时又不是真实的。”所以，这就是我希望能够在做这件事时探索的东西。

And then the context free advice was obviously I noticed more and more that people trying to put tools in play out of context sometimes had worse effects than them just not doing it at all to do that.

然后，与上下文无关的建议显然是，我越来越注意到，人们试图在脱离上下文的情况下使用工具，有时会比他们根本不这样做产生更糟糕的效果。

John Cutler: So, anyway, I kind of thought about it as a product, like, "Okay, what's my opportunity here?

约翰·卡特勒：所以，不管怎样，我有点把它当作一种产品，比如，“好吧，我在这里的机会是什么？

There's a lot of this great advice.

有很多这样的好建议。

It's very actionable.

这是非常可操作的。

I don't know.

我不知道。

In the US were pretty individualistic, so the advice probably lands with people really, really well, and then also it's really actionable," and said, "Okay, well, what would be my particular angle?" So, I thought about the angle, about wanted to explore three things.

在美国，人们非常个人主义，所以这些建议可能会非常非常好地受到人们的欢迎，而且也确实具有可操作性。”然后说道，“好吧，那么，我的特殊角度是什么？”所以，我思考了这个角度，思考了三件事。

I think the first one is this idea we do work in these complex adaptive systems, and so I really went deep in that particular area.

我认为第一个是我们在这些复杂的自适应系统中工作的想法，所以我真的深入到了这个特定领域。

John Cutler: So, we work in environments.

约翰·卡特勒：所以，我们在环境中工作。

There's lots of things that are interdependent on each other.

有很多事情是相互依赖的。

We don't work in closed systems.

我们不在封闭系统中工作。

I mean, if you're in the Bay Area, you're in this broader system called the Bay Area that's in this broader system called California that's in this broader system called the United States.

我的意思是，如果你在湾区，你就在这个称为湾区的更广泛的系统中，在这个称为加利福尼亚州的更广泛的系统中，在这个称为美国的更广泛的系统中。

Your team is in a team of many, many teams in your company.

你的团队是由公司里很多很多团队组成的团队。

The systems are non-linear.

该系统是非线性的。

The bird flapping its wings in Brazil creates the tornado type of stuff.

巴西的鸟儿扇动翅膀会产生龙卷风之类的东西。

And so, I wanted to make sure that we got dug into that particular stuff in The Beautiful Mess stuff.

因此，我想确保我们能够深入研究《美丽的混乱》中的特定内容。

John Cutler: The next thing is that I'm a sucker for weird counterintuitive dynamics in companies.

约翰·卡特勒：接下来的事情是，我很喜欢公司中奇怪的违反直觉的动态。

I don't know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

I absolutely love that.

我非常喜欢那个。

And so, maybe I'll give two examples.

所以，也许我会举两个例子。

One, I'm obsessed with this idea of high work in progress, from a human level and a team level.

第一，我痴迷于从人的层面和团队的层面上进行大量工作的想法。

How even though we know that if you try to do less at once, you'll be more effective, teams routinely just load themself up with work?

尽管我们知道如果你尝试一次少做一些事情，你就会变得更有效率，但团队却总是让自己承担更多的工作？

And so, in the newsletter, I wanted to explore stuff like that, like why, when a bunch of people know irrationally that you should not load yourself up with work, why do really, really smart, capable, intelligent, passionate people in their personal lives and on their teams just load themself up with work?

因此，在时事通讯中，我想探讨类似的问题，比如为什么当一群人非理性地知道你不应该让自己过度工作时，为什么真正非常聪明、有能力、聪明、充满激情的人在他们的个人生活和团队中却让自己过度工作？

What are they optimizing about?

他们在优化什么？

So, that'd be like one example of counterintuitive stuff.

所以，这就像一个违反直觉的例子。

John Cutler: The other stuff is strategy stuff.

约翰·卡特勒：其他的东西是策略的东西。

Every company has these three pillars, and it seems really smart for the CEO to have this really clear three pillars, but then everyone walks away from the meeting and be like, "I don't know what we're with doing." That's another example of a counterintuitive thing.

每家公司都有这三个支柱，对于首席执行官来说，拥有这三个非常明确的支柱似乎非常明智，但随后每个人都离开会议并说：“我不知道我们要做什么。”这是违反直觉的另一个例子。

So, that was the second thing, the counterintuitive stuff.

所以，这是第二件事，违反直觉的事情。

I love the complex stuff.

我喜欢复杂的东西。

And then frankly, I think the other thing is I just wanted to help people who are weird like me do those things.

坦率地说，我认为另一件事是我只是想帮助像我这样奇怪的人做这些事情。

So, I would say I'm really, really triggered.

所以，我想说我真的非常非常激动。

People will say, "But it's probably triggered by Jason." He said, "Why?

人们会说，“但这可能是由杰森触发的。”他说：“为什么？

Bring solutions not just problems." That's my krypton, right?

带来解决方案而不仅仅是问题。”那是我的氪星，对吧？

I like the systems thinking stuff.

我喜欢系统思考的东西。

I like all that.

我喜欢这一切。

So, anyway, long story short, wanted to help people like me.

所以，无论如何，长话短说，我想帮助像我这样的人。

I like the complexity stuff.

我喜欢复杂的东西。

I like all these weird counterintuitive dynamics.

我喜欢所有这些奇怪的违反直觉的动态。

And then I thought that there's a lot of representation for the very deterministic advice that people have.

然后我认为人们提出的非常确定性的建议有很多代表性。

Lenny: That's a really good explanation.

莱尼：这是一个非常好的解释。

There-

那里——

Lenny: That's a really good explanation.

莱尼：这是一个非常好的解释。

There's a piece of what does the market want and let me deliver it, and then there's a piece of how is my brain working?

有一部分是市场想要什么，让我提供它，然后有一部分是我的大脑如何运作？

John Cutler: I love the fact that people scan the market and say, "People want to know about prioritization and so I'm going to tell the world about prioritization." I really like that.

约翰·卡特勒：我喜欢这样一个事实：人们审视市场并说，“人们想了解优先级，所以我要告诉世界优先级。”我真的很喜欢这样。

In fact, I admire, I'm jealous of people who can produce that kind of content realistically.

事实上，我很佩服、很嫉妒那些能够真实地制作出那种内容的人。

Interestingly enough, probably in my doodling in post I've probably given frameworks to do that.

有趣的是，也许在我的帖子中的涂鸦中，我可能已经给出了执行此操作的框架。

I just don't think too much about it.

我只是没有想太多。

I just kind of go in these things.

我只是喜欢这些事情。

There's always this balance and one way that I think about is to get anything done, we need to reduce the world a little bit.

总是存在这种平衡，我想到的一种方法是完成任何事情，我们需要稍微缩小世界。

That's the difference.

这就是区别。

John Cutler: Back to this thing of complex problems, I think it's the difference between oversimplification and focusing.

约翰·卡特勒：回到复杂问题这个问题上来，我认为这就是过度简单化和专注之间的区别。

You can have a really complex problem and you can oversimplify it and that's not great, but you can have a complex problem and be like, "You know what?

你可能会遇到一个非常复杂的问题，但你可能会过度简化它，这并不好，但是你可能会遇到一个复杂的问题，然后说：“你知道吗？

I need to hold some things constant." Not going to make any progress unless we hold some things constant to do that.

我需要保持一些事情不变。”除非我们坚持一些事情，否则不会取得任何进展。

That's, to me, the balance I'm playing all the time between how many variables to hold constant to make sure that people can get some value out of it.

对我来说，这就是我一直在保持多少变量不变以确保人们能够从中获得一些价值之间的平衡。

I don't know about you, but that's the tension I have.

我不了解你，但这就是我的压力。

But you write really actionable stuff and so I really admire that too.

但你写的东西确实是可行的，所以我也很钦佩。

I'm jealous.

我很嫉妒。

Lenny: I try, but then I'm jealous of always having to nail it down to something very concrete and simple.

莱尼：我尝试过，但我嫉妒总是必须将其固定为非常具体和简单的东西。

This last post actually was a little bit of an balancing act where I wrote about how virality is mostly a myth, and I added the word mostly to it at the end.

上一篇文章实际上是一种平衡行为，我写了病毒式传播主要是一个神话，并在最后添加了“主要”这个词。

Then I was like, "Should I just go for it and be like virality is fully a myth?" But no, it's not actually, so I can't really go that far.

然后我想，“我应该继续努力，就像病毒式传播完全是一个神话吗？”但不，实际上不是，所以我不能走那么远。

John Cutler: I love that.

约翰·卡特勒：我喜欢这个。

In the spectrum of advice, every post of mine will say mostly, maybe, it depends, so we all have some opportunity to flex into the other direction.

在一系列建议中，我的每一篇文章都会说，也许，这取决于情况，所以我们都有机会转向另一个方向。

Lenny: Shifting a little bit, coming back to just the bigger picture of John Cutler, you've had more exposure I think to product teams and product managers, you're definitely in the top 1% of people that have talked to and met with and seen what happens within product teams.

Lenny：稍微转变一下，回到 John Cutler 的大局，我认为你对产品团队和产品经理有更多的了解，你绝对是与产品团队交谈、会面并了解产品团队内部发生的事情的前 1% 的人之一。

There's a lot of stuff I want to dig into there and the first is around what you've found differentiates the highest performing teams.

我想深入研究很多东西，第一个是你发现的表现最好的团队的差异化因素。

Let me just ask you this very succinct question and see where it goes.

让我问你这个非常简洁的问题，看看它会发生什么。

If you had to just boil it down, what have you seen most differentiates the highest performing product teams?

如果您必须将其归结为一个问题，那么您认为表现最好的产品团队最与众不同的地方是什么？

John Cutler: First of all, they're top 1%, they're super, super productive, they can levitate, they can do ...

约翰·卡特勒：首先，他们是前 1%，他们非常非常高效，他们可以悬浮，他们可以做......

they have no emotion.

他们没有情感。

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

No. Okay, this is my tack for answering the question.

不，好吧，这就是我回答这个问题的策略。

First of all, I have this friend Josh Arnold and he had this great principle that held true in my experience talking with teams and he calls it the reverse Anna Karenina principle.

首先，我有一位朋友乔什·阿诺德（Josh Arnold），他有一个伟大的原则，在我与团队交谈的经验中是正确的，他称之为反向安娜·卡列尼娜原则。

In Anna Karenina, Tolstoy is basically the like, "The dysfunctional families are all different and the happy families are the same," and what he said is it's the reverse of that with product teams, that actually the dysfunctional companies are all the same and then the happy companies or the higher performing companies can be very, very different.

在《安娜·卡列尼娜》中，托尔斯泰基本上是这样的，“功能失调的家庭都是不同的，幸福的家庭都是一样的”，他所说的是产品团队的相反，实际上功能失调的公司都是一样的，然后幸福的公司或绩效更高的公司可能非常非常不同。

John Cutler: That's something that stuck with me because either you have easy to identify anti patterns, and I'm going to admit earlier in my career, maybe five or six years ago, my content was about identifying things that people would be like, "How did you know that was working in my company?" and I would just be like, "Well, I just know." Even Spencer and I had this thing.

约翰·卡特勒：这一点一直困扰着我，因为要么你很容易识别反模式，我承认在我职业生涯的早期，也许五六年前，我的内容是关于识别人们会喜欢的东西，“你怎么知道这在我的公司起作用？”我会说：“好吧，我就知道。”甚至斯宾塞和我也有这个东西。

I put something on Twitter and Spencer writes me, he's like, "John, is this about amplitude?" and I'm like, "No man.

我在推特上发了一些东西，斯宾塞给我写信，他说，“约翰，这是关于振幅的吗？”我说，“没有人。

It's like that Carly Simon song, Spencer.

就像卡莉·西蒙的那首歌《斯宾塞》。

You probably think this song is about you, but it's not." It just is.

你可能认为这首歌是关于你的，但事实并非如此。”确实如此。

It's just like those things.

就像那些事情一样。

Either you have the very easy to identify anti patterns or you have the high level principles, like you must trust each other or you must do something like that.

要么你有非常容易识别的反模式，要么你有高层次的原则，比如你必须互相信任，或者你必须做类似的事情。

John Cutler: But the way that companies achieve those particular high performing things can be vastly, vastly, vastly different.

约翰·卡特勒：但是，公司实现那些特定的高绩效目标的方式可能会非常非常不同。

Let's just start with that as a basic thing, which is one reason why it makes me hard to answer the question.

让我们从一个基本的事情开始，这也是我很难回答这个问题的原因之一。

A great example here is great product leadership.

一个很好的例子就是出色的产品领导力。

We need great product leaders.

我们需要优秀的产品领导者。

But you meet product leaders and you see that some people are these humble, curious servant product leaders.

但当你遇到产品领导者时，你会发现有些人是谦虚、好奇的仆人式产品领导者。

They're not really talking a lot and they're just growing the system that way.

他们并没有真正谈论太多，只是以这种方式发展系统。

You know what?

你知道吗？

There's other companies with really successful people that are just badass, strong, dominant, they like to spar.

还有一些公司拥有非常成功的员工，他们很厉害、很强大、很有统治力，他们喜欢争吵。

I need people who can spar with me.

我需要能与我并肩作战的人。

That's just one potential example there of okay, you meet enough teams and you see that there's many ways to achieve great leadership example.

这只是一个潜在的例子，好吧，你遇到了足够多的团队，你会发现有很多方法可以实现出色的领导力榜样。

John Cutler: Another example would be, and then I'm going to start listing these things off and then hopefully this makes more sense.

约翰·卡特勒：另一个例子是，然后我将开始列出这些事情，然后希望这更有意义。

John Cutler: You meet lots of great teams and the better teams make high, better decisions faster.

约翰·卡特勒：你会遇到很多优秀的团队，更好的团队会更快地做出更高、更好的决策。

Now, that's like that high level thing that I say that to you and you're probably like, "Well, no shit.

现在，这就像我对你说的那句话，你可能会说，“好吧，没什么。

That's what I would assume to do that." But if you think about good decisions and stuff, like what do you need for good decisions?

这就是我假设要做的事情。”但如果你考虑好的决策之类的事情，比如好的决策需要什么？

You need information, pays to have diverse perspectives, you need to be able to analyze the data.

你需要信息，需要有不同的观点，你需要能够分析数据。

You probably need chops, some kind of chops in the domain to be able to do it.

你可能需要印章，领域中的某种印章才能做到这一点。

You usually need a goal in mind, like what are you optimizing for?

您通常需要记住一个目标，例如您要优化什么？

It's very hard to make a decision just to make a decision to be able to do that.

仅仅为了做出能够做到这一点的决定而做出决定是非常困难的。

John Cutler: Those are the basics, but still none of that's all that interesting, right?

约翰·卡特勒：这些是基础知识，但仍然没有那么有趣，对吧？

You're like, "Oh, you're saying you need information to make decisions and it's kind of not very satisfying to do that." But then if you think about three companies.

你会说，“哦，你是说你需要信息来做出决定，但这样做并不是很令人满意。”但如果你考虑一下三个公司。

We could even play the game together.

我们甚至可以一起玩游戏。

I'll give you two, you could give me the third one.

我给你两个，你可以给我第三个。

But let's say company A buys into the whole idea of an extremely rigorous decision-making process.

但假设 A 公司接受极其严格的决策过程的整个理念。

It's very process driven.

这是非常流程驱动的。

It's like you do this, you do that, we red team our decisions, we bring in people to push back, we've got this particular thing.

就像你做这个，你做那个，我们对我们的决定进行红队，我们引入人们来反击，我们已经得到了这个特殊的东西。

Maybe that's how they achieve it.

也许这就是他们实现这一目标的方式。

Company B, maybe they're just all about this kind of mushy, diverse perspectives thing.

B公司，也许他们只是喜欢这种糊涂的、不同观点的东西。

They're not very process driven, but they achieve really good decisions by making sure that there's these serendipitous connections between people at the right time with the right set of .

他们不是很受流程驱动，但他们通过确保人们在正确的时间与正确的一组人之间建立这些偶然的联系来实现真正好的决策。

John Cutler: There are highly successful companies that achieve both of those particular things.

约翰·卡特勒：有些非常成功的公司实现了这两件事。

I don't know, what am I missing?

我不知道，我错过了什么？

Lenny, you think about it.

莱尼，你考虑一下。

There's the rigorous process driven approach, then there's the company that's all about the ad hoc work together collaborative approach.

有严格的流程驱动方法，还有公司采用临时协作方法。

What's another way that some companies make really good decisions all the time?

一些公司始终做出正确决策的另一种方式是什么？

Lenny: What comes to mind is a very top down CEO driven, here's what we're doing, here's the roadmap.

莱尼：我想到的是一个自上而下的首席执行官驱动，这就是我们正在做的事情，这是路线图。

John Cutler: Absolutely.

约翰·卡特勒：当然。

So this is the thing, I'm sitting there and the very idealistic product managers are like, "You got to have empowered teams and you got to push decision-making down to the bottom," and I'm like, "Huh, well that company's doing pretty well and the CEO just tells everyone what to do and in fact, they attracted people who just don't mind that and like their vision and they do it." You find people who really like the process driven approach and you find people who do those things.

所以事情就是这样的，我坐在那里，非常理想主义的产品经理会说，“你必须拥有授权的团队，你必须将决策制定到最底层，”我说，“嗯，那家公司做得很好，首席执行官只是告诉每个人该做什么，事实上，他们吸引了那些不介意这一点、喜欢他们的愿景的人，他们就这么做了。”你会找到真正喜欢流程驱动方法的人，并且会找到做这些事情的人。

That's one principle done a different way.

这是一个以不同方式实现的原则。

But then I'll just take a couple principles.

但接下来我会提出一些原则。

I just wanted to get that out of the way, that every one of these I mentioned could be achieved in a couple different ways.

我只是想解决这个问题，我提到的每一个都可以通过几种不同的方式来实现。

John Cutler: The first thing you notice is the companies that are very high performing have coherence between the structure of their company and their current strategy.

约翰·卡特勒：你注意到的第一件事是，绩效非常高的公司的公司结构和当前战略之间具有一致性。

This is a structural thing, I think when there's startups, things are very fluid and the strategy's in flux, and so they have a fluid structure, but then as companies grow, there's sort of a physics to the problem that starts to catch up to the particular things.

这是一个结构性的事情，我认为当有初创公司时，事情非常流动，战略也在不断变化，因此它们具有流动的结构，但随着公司的成长，问题的物理性开始赶上特定的事情。

Their funding approach, their incentives, the org structure, the architecture, even their technical architecture supports their strategy back and forth.

他们的融资方式、激励措施、组织结构、架构，甚至技术架构都支持他们的战略。

The reason why I mentioned this one is you can have brilliant teams.

我之所以提到这一点，是因为你可以拥有出色的团队。

You meet these brilliant teams where they've just hired in the best of the best and they're just struggling with a strategy structure mismatch and no amount of let's empower people or no amount of doing whatever is going to knock them out of that.

你会遇到这些才华横溢的团队，他们刚刚聘用了最优秀的人才，但他们只是在战略结构不匹配的问题上苦苦挣扎，无论我们如何赋予员工权力，也无论做什么都无法让他们摆脱困境。

John Cutler: So what do you need?

约翰·卡特勒：那么你需要什么？

You need a strategy, then you need to line the structure around it.

你需要一个策略，然后你需要围绕它制定结构。

This is different than saying ...

这和说的不一样...

you're asking me what do I observe when they're doing really well?

你问我当他们做得很好时我会观察到什么？

Now, the tactics to achieve this might be different depending on the company, but you could get that.

现在，实现这一目标的策略可能会因公司而异，但你可以做到。

I think the second thing, if I admit it, is the strong opinions loosely held, which is there is this balance of believing in certain things, believing maybe in the power of products or the power of connecting with customers or maybe key strategic things that they need to do, or even believing that this is a done deal and you just need to move faster than everyone else in the space, or even the belief that you need to just go straight to commodity pricing like Amazon with whatever you're doing.

我认为第二件事，如果我承认的话，是松散持有的强烈意见，即相信某些事情的力量，相信产品的力量或与客户联系的力量，或者他们需要做的关键战略事情，甚至相信这是一个已完成的交易，你只需要比这个领域的其他人更快地行动，甚至相信你需要像亚马逊一样直接进行商品定价，无论你在做什么。

John Cutler: There is just a stubborn, strongly held belief that is then balanced with their ability to have the loosely held thing.

约翰·卡特勒：只有一种顽固的、强烈持有的信念，然后与他们拥有松散持有的东西的能力相平衡。

I would just observed this in meeting after meeting with these teams that seem to be having a bout of being more high performing.

我只是在与这些似乎表现更高的团队会面后的会议中观察到了这一点。

They would be stubborn about some things that they were doing even when it didn't make sense in the short term and then they would do that.

他们会对自己正在做的一些事情很固执，即使这些事情在短期内没有意义，然后他们就会这么做。

I think that that's another thing.

我认为那是另一回事。

I think related to that when it comes to the product world is just a core belief in the power of products.

我认为与产品世界相关的是对产品力量的核心信念。

The Jeff Bezos thing, that the success of today was set in motion three years ago, that product is a layer cake and that you are layering on decisions, the success you're having now is a layer cake of decisions from the last bunch of years that you're doing it.

杰夫·贝索斯的事情，今天的成功是三年前开始的，该产品是一个分层蛋糕，你正在分层决策，你现在所取得的成功是你过去几年所做的决策的分层蛋糕。

John Cutler: You could rationalize that all you want, but at the end of the day, it's often because either the founders or other people involved have seen how that can work because there is a leap of faith and there's a leap of faith that no amount of data or no amount of AB testing or no amount of rationalizing or no amount of spreadsheet math to figure out the ROI of what you're doing will ever help you.

John Cutler：你可以合理化你想要的一切，但归根结底，这通常是因为创始人或其他相关人员已经看到了这是如何运作的，因为存在着信念的飞跃，而且信念的飞跃认为，没有任何数据或AB测试或任何合理化或电子表格数学来计算你正在做的事情的投资回报率将永远帮助你。

It's just not.

事实并非如此。

I just noticed that pattern over and over that there was just a slightly irrational belief in the power of what it would take to have a nine craft level product versus a seven craft level product or six craft level product.

我只是一遍又一遍地注意到这种模式，即对于拥有九级工艺级别产品与七级工艺级别产品或六级工艺级别产品所需的力量存在稍微不合理的信念。

I think that that's another component.

我认为这是另一个组成部分。

I have a couple more in depth like that.

我还有一些类似的更深入的内容。

John Cutler: Definitely the leadership is coherent, so that's walking the walk, talking the talk and I think this is one of the most fascinating ones because it's very much about being who you are and not being embarrassed about that thing.

约翰·卡特勒：领导层肯定是一致的，所以这就是言出必行，我认为这是最令人着迷的事情之一，因为这很大程度上是关于做你自己，而不是为那件事感到尴尬。

There are companies probably all know that outspoken, domineering believe that the company just should be run a certain way and they set this vibe, this coherent ...

有些公司可能都知道，直言不讳、专横跋扈的人认为公司应该以某种方式运营，他们营造了这种氛围，这种连贯的......

that their actions and words match together.

他们的行为和言语相匹配。

When you think about it that way, it makes more sense.

当你这样想时，它就更有意义了。

The company that's like, "Oh, well we want to empower our teams and do whatever and we believe in our customers," and their actions don't match those particular things, that's not very, very coherent to do these particular things.

公司会说，“哦，我们希望赋予我们的团队权力，做任何事情，我们相信我们的客户”，但他们的行为与这些特定的事情不相符，做这些特定的事情不是非常非常连贯。

I think that that's one, the coherent things.

我认为这是一个，连贯的事情。

John Cutler: Okay, so you've got those high level ones.

约翰·卡特勒：好的，现在你已经有了那些高级别的了。

I think you can definitely add skills and experience.

我认为你绝对可以增加技能和经验。

I mean, those definitely matter.

我的意思是，这些绝对重要。

I think one thing that happens a lot is how the company views its skills.

我认为经常发生的一件事是公司如何看待其技能。

Here's a challenge we had in Amplitude, just sharing this, is you could view Amplitude as just another B2B SaaS company or maybe just an analytics company.

这是我们在 Amplitude 遇到的一个挑战，只是分享一下，您可以将 Amplitude 视为另一家 B2B SaaS 公司，或者只是一家分析公司。

But one of the challenges we had when it was how to build our team is to think about where do you draw the line between someone who's just done B2B SaaS for the last 10 years, is a pro at what they're doing and then how someone could embrace this kind of weird problem, sort of bottom-up motion, top-down motion.

但我们在如何建立团队时遇到的挑战之一是思考如何在过去 10 年里刚刚从事 B2B SaaS 的人与他们正在做的事情上的专业人士之间划清界限，然后如何才能接受这种奇怪的问题，比如自下而上的运动、自上而下的运动。

It's in product, it's a messy space.

它在产品中，这是一个混乱的空间。

You need to be more strategic to do that so the skills need to be mediated obviously between the environment to do those things.

您需要更具战略性才能做到这一点，因此需要在环境之间协调技能才能完成这些事情。

John Cutler: Then like all the other, they know how to build software, things don't break, they can experiment without risks.

约翰·卡特勒：然后像所有其他人一样，他们知道如何构建软件，事情不会破坏，他们可以毫无风险地进行实验。

I don't know.

我不知道。

They have positive habits.

他们有积极的习惯。

I could go on and on.

我还可以继续说下去。

Hopefully this is helpful just hearing my thought process to go through these things.

希望这对听到我经历这些事情的思考过程有所帮助。

But I think that the TLDR of this whole thing is those top ones I mentioned seem like common sense and it's like how do you put it in motion in your company?

但我认为这整件事的 TLDR 是我提到的那些看起来像是常识的最重要的事情，就像你如何在你的公司中付诸实践？

I was just reading that working backwards book about Amazon and they're in this chapter about basically their bar raisers thing and I share it with my partner who's the head of HR at a company.

我刚刚读了一本关于亚马逊的逆向工作书，他们在这一章中基本上是关于他们的酒吧提高者的事情，我与我的合作伙伴分享了它，他是一家公司的人力资源主管。

She's like, "Yeah, this is sort of common sense hiring.

她说：“是的，这是一种常识性的招聘。

They're just talking about de-biasing the hiring and having standards and having those linked into the jobs and just not rushing it."

他们只是在谈论消除招聘偏见，制定标准，并将这些标准与工作挂钩，而不是操之过急。”

John Cutler: It's like these things that seem so common sense are actually hard with what they're doing.

约翰·卡特勒：这些看似常识的事情实际上对他们所做的事情来说很难。

I don't know if you've noticed that, but it's like a lot of the advice is common sense.

我不知道你是否注意到这一点，但很多建议似乎都是常识。

That doesn't mean it's easy to put in motion.

这并不意味着它很容易付诸行动。

Lenny: Yeah, and there's also a lot of power to just making it a very important value to the company.

莱尼：是的，而且还有很大的力量让它成为公司非常重要的价值。

Just calling it bar raisers-

就称其为酒吧提升者-

John Cutler: .

约翰·卡特勒：。

I'll use the example of a company.

我将使用公司的例子。

I mentioned this company AppFolio here in Santa Barbara, but Klaus and Jon who founded that company, it's just a gem of a company, it's an amazing vertical B2B SaaS company.

我在圣巴巴拉提到过这家公司 AppFolio，但是 Klaus 和 Jon 创立了这家公司，它只是一家公司的瑰宝，它是一家令人惊叹的垂直 B2B SaaS 公司。

But I think in the story that they tell us when they started AppFolio, they're like, "We want to find a place where the money flows and we want to be really close to customers and we just want to ..." Well, they were engineers who had seen the light around customer development, just getting close to customers, just being in service to the customers, not just gold plating every technical decision you did.

但我认为，在他们启动 AppFolio 时告诉我们的故事中，他们就像是，“我们想要找到一个资金流动的地方，我们想要真正贴近客户，我们只是想……”嗯，他们是工程师，他们看到了客户开发的光明，只是贴近客户，只是为客户服务，而不仅仅是为你所做的每一个技术决策镀金。

They bought in early to the ideas of test-driven development, pair programming because they believe that the quality ...

他们很早就接受了测试驱动开发、结对编程的思想，因为他们相信质量......

you should never be worried about the quality.

您永远不必担心质量。

They just believe that quality wasn't something you sacrifice as the norm.

他们只是相信质量不是你作为常态而牺牲的东西。

It's just got to work.

它必须发挥作用。

John Cutler: They believed that was possible and when you think about it, those things are always debated.

约翰·卡特勒：他们相信这是可能的，当你想到这一点时，这些事情总是存在争议。

Like, "Oh, should we get technical debt or not?

就像，“哦，我们是否应该获得技术债务？

Or how much customer contact is it not?" These two founders basically are like, "That's it.

或者说有多少客户接触不是？”这两位创始人基本上都是这样的，“就是这样。

We don't sacrifice on those things." They've done really well with that.

我们不会在这些事情上做出牺牲。”他们在这方面做得非常好。

Lenny: That's a thread I want to actually follow up on, is just the power of culture and values and things like that.

莱尼：这是我真正想要跟进的一条线索，就是文化和价值观以及类似事物的力量。

But before we do that, let me just summarize maybe the top five attributes and kind of traits you just shared and then I have a two part question around this.

但在此之前，让我总结一下您刚刚分享的前五个属性和特征，然后我有一个由两部分组成的问题。

I wrote these down.

我把这些写下来了。

Basically the things you've found are true for the companies that seem to be best at building product and software and running product teams.

基本上，您发现的事情对于那些似乎最擅长构建产品和软件以及运营产品团队的公司来说是正确的。

One is coherence between what they're doing and what their strategy is.

一是他们正在做的事情和他们的战略之间的一致性。

Two is strong opinions loosely held.

二是意见强硬松散。

Three is belief in the power of product.

三是相信产品的力量。

Four is the leadership is coherent, that their advice matches their words and their actions.

四是领导一致，言行一致。

Then five is just the necessary skills and experience in building stuff they're building.

那么五个就是构建他们正在构建的东西所需的技能和经验。

John Cutler: Contextual skills too.

约翰·卡特勒：还有语境技能。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Lenny: Kind of a two part question.

莱尼：这是一个由两部分组成的问题。

One is if there's a pie chart of what contributes to this working out, what percentage would you say is just the people that they hire that contributes to them succeeding here?

一个是，如果有一个饼图来说明是什么有助于实现这一目标，那么您认为他们雇用的有助于他们在这里取得成功的人员所占的百分比是多少？

Then related question is just like can you change a team to be high performing?

那么相关的问题就像你能让一个团队变得高绩效吗？

Does that happen or is it often just like this is just the way they are and their culture and their founders are this way and it's really hard?

这种情况是否会发生，还是经常就像他们就是这样，他们的文化和创始人就是这样，这真的很难？

John Cutler: The pie chart, that's the problem.

约翰·卡特勒：饼图，这就是问题所在。

I mean, that is the trillion dollar question so I don't really have an answer.

我的意思是，这是一个价值数万亿美元的问题，所以我真的没有答案。

I have a couple thoughts on it.

我对此有一些想法。

What do we know?

我们知道什么？

We know that you can have a bunch of geniuses in the room and if there's not coherent leadership and there's not coherent structure in what you're doing, they'll fail.

我们知道，房间里可能有一群天才，如果没有连贯的领导力，并且你所做的事情没有连贯的结构，他们就会失败。

Okay, so we know there's a limit on one side of this particular problem and we know on the other side of the problem is if no one's done this before, who knows?

好的，所以我们知道这个特定问题的一方面存在限制，而我们知道问题的另一方面是如果以前没有人这样做过，谁知道呢？

Because how many startups were started by people who hadn't done it before, who had passion for doing something?

因为有多少初创公司是由以前没有做过、对做某事充满热情的人创办的？

Now, they made a lot of mistakes.

现在，他们犯了很多错误。

Now, granted people would say, "All right, now after three failures, I'm going to tell you what we need to do to succeed," so maybe they have to fail a couple times to do that.

现在，人们会说，“好吧，在经历了三次失败之后，我要告诉你我们需要做什么才能成功”，所以也许他们必须失败几次才能做到这一点。

John Cutler: With the right things in motion, you can do that.

约翰·卡特勒：只要采取正确的行动，你就可以做到这一点。

Also, another data point.

另外，还有另一个数据点。

At a lot of companies that are known to be higher performing, they're one of two categories.

在许多众所周知的绩效较高的公司中，它们属于两类之一。

Either everyone in the company is this extremely vetted genius at what they're doing, or they have a culture where people stay for three, four, five, six years, they build their career or seven, eight, nine years.

要么公司里的每个人在他们所做的事情上都是经过严格审查的天才，要么他们有一种文化，让人们呆上三年、四年、五年、六年，他们建立自己的职业生涯，或者七年、八年、九年。

There is a concentration of people who are very skilled, but they have a knack for bringing people up.

这里聚集了一批非常有技能的人，但他们也有培养人的诀窍。

They have a knack for taking someone who has some of the raw materials to be able to do it and making them really good at their job to be able to do it.

他们有一种诀窍，就是让拥有一些原材料的人能够做到这一点，并使他们真正擅长自己的工作，从而能够做到这一点。

I'm not going to throw out a percentage point into it.

我不会在其中投入一个百分点。

I'm just going to note that I think that the biggest challenge is that we all need to challenge our biases.

我只是想指出，我认为最大的挑战是我们都需要挑战我们的偏见。

John Cutler: I do too.

约翰·卡特勒：我也是。

Four or five years ago, I would've said, well, personal skill's nothing.

四五年前，我会说，个人技能不算什么。

It's all the environment.

这都是环境。

There's people on Twitter who do this all the time.

Twitter 上一直有人这样做。

They're like, "Bad management kills everything.

他们就像是，“管理不善会毁掉一切。

Skills aren't important.

技能并不重要。

You should just be able to do anything with anyone." I used to be one of those particular people and I also have this sort of humanist bent to what I'm doing, and so I very much want to believe ...

你应该能够对任何人做任何事。”我曾经是那些特殊的人之一，而且我对我正在做的事情也有这种人文主义倾向，所以我非常愿意相信......

I'm always the person that's like, "Oh, we should give them the seventh chance." I know myself right to do that and I would suggest that there's people on the other end of the spectrum who could benefit from shifting a little bit to embrace some other ideas too.

我总是这样的人，“哦，我们应该给他们第七次机会。”我知道自己这样做是对的，而且我建议持不同观点的人也可以从接受其他一些想法中受益。

They're the people who are like, "Well, it's 100% their skill.

他们是这样的人，“嗯，这 100% 是他们的技能。

We will hire complete A plus players all a particular time.

我们将在特定时间聘请完整的 A+ 球员。

Everything will work out as expected." Or they trace everything back to leadership anyway.

一切都会按预期进行。”或者他们无论如何都会将一切追溯到领导层。

So when anything's wrong, they're like, "Well, this happened under this person's watch, therefore they are a failure."

因此，当出现任何问题时，他们会说，“好吧，这件事是在这个人的监督下发生的，因此他们是失败的。”

John Cutler: But how many companies in general will hire a string of highly qualified people into a particular department and then fail each particular time?

约翰·卡特勒：但是，一般有多少公司会雇佣一批高素质人才到某个特定部门，然后每次都失败呢？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't have the answer for you on that one, but I think that everyone can benefit from challenging maybe their happy place, me included .

我没有这个问题的答案，但我认为每个人都可以从挑战他们快乐的地方中受益，包括我。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

It's like it's an optimistic perspective basically and anyone can change, anyone can improve.

这基本上是一个乐观的观点，任何人都可以改变，任何人都可以改进。

Don't assume that it's just not possible.

不要认为这是不可能的。

John Cutler: And give it a shot and then can you create a coherent environment where maybe that could happen.

约翰·卡特勒：尝试一下，然后你可以创建一个可能发生这种情况的连贯环境。

Frankly, we're maybe getting into this later, there's a lot of companies that were flying high and are not flying high anymore.

坦率地说，我们可能稍后会讨论这个问题，有很多公司曾经飞得很高，但现在不再飞得那么高了。

High performance is not this state you achieve.

高性能并不是你达到的这种状态。

It's actually a continuum that you're always ...

这实际上是一个连续体，你总是......

we have this in our personal lives too.

我们的个人生活中也有这种情况。

We're flying high and we think we do everything and then we get to that point and then we go back down into feeling we don't know anything again and we feel those lows.

我们飞得很高，我们认为我们做了所有事情，然后我们到达了那个点，然后我们又回到了感觉我们什么都不知道，我们感到那些低谷。

That's kind of how I think about that particular thing.

这就是我对那件特定事情的看法。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

But getting SOC 2 to your report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

但将 SOC 2 纳入您的报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Lenny: Enter Vanta.

莱尼：万塔上。

Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time, Lenny's podcast listeners, get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可从 Vanta 获得 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A dot com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

请访问 V-A-N-T-A dot com/lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Coming back to the first question about people, and maybe you just answered this, but do you find that it's all about the people and who you hire and may be at the top that lead to the result at the company?

莱尼：回到关于人的第一个问题，也许你刚刚回答了这个问题，但是你是否发现这一切都与人和你雇用的人以及可能处于最高层的人有关，从而导致了公司的结果？

Or you're saying it's sometimes the right amazing people?

或者你是说有时是正确的令人惊奇的人？

Sometimes it's the process, sometimes it's the market,

有时是过程，有时是市场，

John Cutler: It's the latter and I think that's why I called the damn thing the beautiful mess.

约翰·卡特勒：是后者，我想这就是为什么我称这该死的东西为“美丽的混乱”。

Because I think we all have confirmation bias.

因为我认为我们都有确认偏差。

We'll point to that company and say ...

我们会指着那家公司说……

I mean, let me just use an example.

我的意思是，让我举个例子。

Satya Nadella and Microsoft.

萨蒂亚·纳德拉和微软。

You could argue you obviously have someone who's this very humble, very capable leader in that particular thing.

你可能会说，你显然有一个在某件事上非常谦虚、非常有能力的领导者。

But I imagine that at some point in the future there'll be books written about that and they'll say like, "Hey, it was kind of that.

但我想在未来的某个时候，将会有关于这一点的书籍，他们会说，“嘿，就是这样。

But you know what he did?

但你知道他做了什么吗？

He got rid of some bad people and created the air cover and set in motion the couple of strategic imperatives that we're going to let the things going." Now imagine Microsoft didn't have all the wealth of talent that it had, or all the wealth of structures or the good parts of the tradition, or let's say the bad parts served them well for a long time, but maybe they started to become a little bit outdated and then they were putting them in a competitively bad situation.

他除掉了一些坏人，建立了空中掩护，并启动了几项战略要务，让事情继续发展。”现在想象一下，微软并不拥有它所拥有的所有财富的人才，或者所有财富的结构或传统的好的部分，或者让我们说坏的部分在很长一段时间内为他们提供了良好的服务，但也许他们开始变得有点过时，然后他们将他们置于竞争不利的境地。

John Cutler: Even that situation, you can idolize that particular leader for doing it, but there's many things that could happen to be able to do that.

约翰·卡特勒：即使是那种情况，你也可以崇拜那个特定的领导者，因为他做到了这一点，但有很多事情可能发生，能够做到这一点。

There's this idea of great man theory, and this is something I talk about a lot where in great man theory success is the result of these highly influential, highly effective men, in a lot of cases, and that you can explain history through these heroic men.

有一个伟人理论的想法，这是我经常谈论的内容，在伟人理论中，成功是这些极具影响力、高效的人的结果，在很多情况下，你可以通过这些英雄人物来解释历史。

That's sort of a thing.

就是这样的一件事。

A lot of people base history on doing that.

很多人都以此为历史基础。

I think that this, again, just the other perspective here is that things are a lot messier and you can't just trace everything to these sort of single heroes men in many cases that make it happen.

我认为，这只是这里的另一个观点，事情要混乱得多，你不能将所有事情都追溯到这些在很多情况下使这一切发生的单一英雄人物。

I'm just presenting both sides of it as we kind of dig into it.

我只是在我们深入研究它的同时呈现它的两面。

I think, though, let's say you're a founder and you're trying to decide, "Should I invest more on processes or should I invest more in people?"

不过，我认为，假设您是一位创始人，并且您正在尝试决定：“我应该在流程上投入更多，还是应该在人员上投入更多？”

John Cutler: The first thing is introspection.

约翰·卡特勒：首先是内省。

What do you believe in really?

你真正相信什么？

Not just what do I believe in that you think the whole rest of the world ...

不仅仅是我相信什么，你认为世界其他地方......

I think the rules of the world are that blank happens.

我认为世界的规则就是空白的发生。

It's like what do you believe in and what do the people around you believe in and how can you be a coherent leader?

就像你相信什么以及你周围的人相信什么以及你如何才能成为一个一致的领导者？

You know what?

你知道吗？

You can nudge yourself a little bit away from your happy place, but you're not going to go super far.

你可以让自己稍微远离你快乐的地方，但你不会走得太远。

You're not going to go from a process-driven, meritocratic, X, Y, Z person all the way to I'm going to start a collectivist company where everything is sort of the consensus decision to do that.

你不会从一个流程驱动、任人唯贤、X、Y、Z 的人一路发展到我要创办一家集体主义公司，在这家公司中，一切都是共识决定。

You're not going to do that.

你不会那样做的。

But I think it starts with self-awareness and then that's how people form their authentic leadership vibe and then they flex a little bit and then they embrace other perspectives.

但我认为这始于自我意识，然后人们就是如何形成真正的领导氛围，然后他们稍微灵活一点，然后接受其他观点。

That's just my perspective on it.

这只是我的看法。

Lenny: That really resonates.

莱尼：这确实引起了共鸣。

It makes me think about companies, especially in the past couple years, that did really well because the market was pulling them and everything was just killing it.

这让我想起那些表现非常好的公司，尤其是在过去几年，因为市场在拉动它们，而一切都在扼杀它们。

They're just growing crazy and you would assume it's the founder, the CEO, that's the result of that.

他们只是变得疯狂，你会认为这是创始人、首席执行官，这就是结果。

But then when the market tanks, things stop working, and that's a really good, I think, example of just, it's not necessarily the person.

但当市场低迷时，事情就会停止运作，我认为这是一个很好的例子，这不一定是人的问题。

Could just be other factors that make it feel like everything's going great.

可能只是其他因素让你感觉一切都很顺利。

John Cutler: And people are great.

约翰·卡特勒：人们都很棒。

There are people that have an outsized effect in particular companies.

有些人在特定的公司中具有巨大的影响力。

A great example there is people forget that, for example, leaders or CEOs also have a lot of formal structural power at their disposal to be able to change things.

一个很好的例子是，人们忘记了，例如，领导者或首席执行官也拥有大量正式的结构性权力，可以改变事物。

So well, there's that great man leaders, genius.

好吧，有一位伟大的领导者，天才。

They do have more knobs to move, and even then they're not the boss.

他们确实有更多的控制权，但即便如此，他们也不是老板。

You know what?

你知道吗？

There's a board, there's investors.

有董事会，就有投资者。

If you talk to any CEO, they'll be like, "You think .

如果你和任何一位首席执行官交谈，他们都会说，“你认为......

I've got people bossing me around too." It's always a mix.

我周围也有人对我发号施令。”它总是混合的。

That's the way I see it.

我就是这么看的。

Lenny: Which is why if things don't go well, their ass is on the line.

莱尼：这就是为什么如果事情进展不顺利，他们的屁股就岌岌可危了。

Lenny: Coming back to a thought I had as you were talking earlier about values and culture, it's interesting that wasn't on your list of just the power and importance of, I don't know, strong value, strong culture.

莱尼：回到你之前谈论价值观和文化时我的一个想法，有趣的是，这并不在你的清单上，只是我不知道，强大的价值观和强大的文化的力量和重要性。

Have you found that that's just not essential?

您是否发现这并不是必需的？

What are your thoughts on-

你的想法是什么——

John Cutler: No, I think it's kind of the fabric that creates those other things.

约翰·卡特勒：不，我认为这是创造其他东西的织物。

It's the fabric that creates coherence.

它是创造连贯性的面料。

Coherent around what?

围绕什么保持一致？

If culture is what we're doing, is what we're acting and the way we act is sort of a function of some of the belief systems and the culture and the value systems that we have, maybe I just almost take it for granted that that's sitting underneath those particular things.

如果文化是我们正在做的事情，是我们正在采取的行动，而我们的行动方式是我们所拥有的某些信仰体系、文化和价值体系的函数，那么也许我几乎理所当然地认为它就隐藏在这些特定事物的下面。

But here's an example where sometimes nuances matter.

但这里有一个例子，有时细微差别很重要。

I'll just use Amplitude.

我将只使用振幅。

We had some values and we had HOG, humility, and it's this idea of ownership and a growth mindset to do these things.

我们有一些价值观，我们有 HOG、谦逊，正是这种主人翁意识和成长心态来做这些事情。

John Cutler: Ownership defined in an individualistic culture is going to look very, very different than ownership defined in a collectivist culture.

约翰·卡特勒：个人主义文化中定义的所有权与集体主义文化中定义的所有权看起来非常非常不同。

What I find with companies is that ...

我对公司的发现是......

and certainly we struggled to communicate this too, and I think we were pretty good at communicating where we sat on this particular thing, but a lot of times people write up these cultural documents and they're just like, "Well, this is our culture.

当然，我们也很难沟通这一点，我认为我们非常擅长沟通我们在这件特定事情上的立场，但很多时候人们写下这些文化文件，他们就像是，“好吧，这就是我们的文化。

We're into ownership." It's not saying much, saying that you believe in ownership without the addition of ...

我们已经拥有了所有权。”这没什么多说的，就是说你相信所有权，而不需要添加......

what we would do successfully and Spencer and other people do successfully is talk about the behaviors that represented that level of ownership, then that tells you something about what the culture is.

我们以及斯宾塞和其他人会成功做的就是谈论代表所有权水平的行为，然后告诉你文化是什么。

Maybe when I was answering that, I kind of took that for granted.

也许当我回答这个问题时，我有点认为这是理所当然的。

But there's a set of beliefs and values that sit underneath all those things, I bet.

但我敢打赌，所有这些事情的背后都有一套信念和价值观。

Lenny: When you think of the companies you work with over the years, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want, but when you think of the companies with the best culture or the best way, or some of the best companies in terms of how they build product, who comes to mind?

Lenny：当你想到多年来与你合作的公司时，如果你不愿意的话，你可以不必回答这个问题，但是当你想到那些拥有最好的文化或最好的方式的公司，或者一些在如何构建产品方面最好的公司时，你会想到谁？

John Cutler: I will mention some companies, but I'm not going to mention what people think in doing this.

约翰·卡特勒：我会提到一些公司，但我不会提到人们在这样做时的想法。

I'm just going to mention moments where I was like, "This thing is really clicking," and not because it wasn't easy-

我只是想提一下我当时的感觉，“这件事真的很有趣”，并不是因为这并不容易——

John Cutler: I was like, this thing is really clicking.

约翰·卡特勒：我当时想，这件事真的很有趣。

John Cutler: And not because it wasn't easy, or there is a leader at Lego and her name is Angela.

约翰·卡特勒：并不是因为这并不容易，也不是因为乐高有一位领导者，她的名字叫安吉拉。

And when I'm talking to her, I'm just like, this person just has it dialed in.

当我和她说话时，我就想，这个人刚刚拨通了电话。

This is really hard.

这真的很难。

This business is transforming.

这项业务正在转型。

They've got one of the biggest, most iconic brands in the whole world at their hands.

他们拥有全世界最大、最具标志性的品牌之一。

And I'm sitting and I'm just going to single out her.

我正坐着，我要单挑她。

Yeah, there's this situation here.

是的，这里有这样的情况。

It's not easy, it's not great.

这并不容易，也不是很好。

It's not high performing by any, you take a tiny Silicon Valley company.

以硅谷一家小公司为例，它的表现并不高。

Yeah, it's hard to be Lego with thousands of people trying to build this and trying to take an iconic brand and turn it into something having to do with digital stuff.

是的，要成为乐高是很困难的，有成千上万的人试图建造它，并试图将一个标志性品牌变成与数字产品有关的东西。

But I just want to give a shout out to her.

但我只是想向她大声喊叫。

John Cutler: That's what I got to say to this question.

约翰·卡特勒：这就是我对这个问题要说的。

I think of it more of these moments where I'm like, "Wow, this shits hard.

我更多地想到这些时刻，我会想，“哇，这太难了。

It's not ideal." And that people are coming to work every day and there's a group of people in this room who are extremely well-meaning.

这并不理想。”人们每天都来上班，这个房间里有一群人是非常善意的。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

The impact of their work might not even be seen in their tenure at that company.

他们的工作的影响甚至可能不会在他们在那家公司的任期内显现出来。

John Cutler: Some of these larger companies might take a decade to really work themselves through.

约翰·卡特勒：其中一些较大的公司可能需要十年的时间才能真正渡过难关。

And so I don't know, when you asked that question, I thought more about individual moments where I spent time with teams or like that team I mentioned to you in India where it's like everyone's super humble and whatever.

所以我不知道，当你问这个问题时，我更多地思考了我与团队一起度过的个人时刻，或者像我在印度向你提到的那个团队，那里的每个人都非常谦虚等等。

So...

所以...

John Cutler: Yeah, I'm not going to give a lot of names.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，我不会透露很多名字。

John Cutler: But just shout out Angela.

约翰·卡特勒：但只要喊出安吉拉就行了。

She's doing an awesome job.

她做得很棒。

Lenny: Go Angela.

莱尼：走吧，安吉拉。

That reminds me of something I wanted to ask around the cultural differences between product teams in different countries.

这让我想起了我想问的关于不同国家产品团队之间文化差异的问题。

You talked about India, you talked about Lego.

你谈到了印度，你谈到了乐高。

What have you found to be the main differences in how product teams operate and companies operate across different countries like say California versus Paris versus Australia?

您发现不同国家/地区（例如加利福尼亚州、巴黎与澳大利亚）的产品团队运作方式和公司运作方式的主要差异是什么？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

And again, I'm not an expert in this and I think Erin Meyer wrote that or Meyer, I'm not sure how to pronounce her name, wrote that book, The Culture Map.

再说一遍，我不是这方面的专家，我认为艾琳·迈耶（Erin Meyer）写了那本书，或者迈耶（Meyer）写了那本书，《文化地图》，我不知道如何发音她的名字。

And so you should just find what those people wrote because they're much smarter than I am about this.

所以你应该找到那些人写的东西，因为他们在这方面比我聪明得多。

But here's the individual things that I noticed is definitely the individualist and what I would call almost like communitarian vibe.

但我注意到的个人事物绝对是个人主义者，我称之为几乎类似于社群主义氛围。

John Cutler: The idea of individualism versus the idea of the team being sort of a community of people together.

约翰·卡特勒：个人主义的理念与团队是一个由人们组成的社区的理念之间的对比。

So that's one, and you pick up about that a lot when you go to different places.

这就是其中之一，当你去不同的地方时，你会学到很多东西。

I mean, in the United States you'll find this situation where you've got this one engineering manager and they are brokering the projects with every single engineer on their team and everyone wants the promotion.

我的意思是，在美国，你会发现这样的情况，你有一个工程经理，他们正在与团队中的每一位工程师一起代理项目，每个人都希望得到晋升。

John Cutler: And there's this whole, instead of the PM working with the team, it's like the PM brokering stuff with an engineering manager to give everyone their premier project.

John Cutler：这就是整个过程，而不是 PM 与团队合作，这就像 PM 与工程经理进行代理，为每个人提供他们的首要项目。

No one's really working together.

没有人真正一起工作。

There's no pair programming.

没有结对编程。

There's nothing like that.

没有那样的事。

That's a whole other debate, but.

那是另外一个争论了，但是。

And so that's highly individualistic and it might work in that particular environment.

因此，这是高度个人主义的，并且可能在特定环境中发挥作用。

John Cutler: In fact, it might be optimized for environments where you're burning through people every 18 months or 24 months or...

John Cutler：事实上，它可能会针对每 18 个月或 24 个月或...的环境进行优化。

Because you just want to put another cog into the particular machine so that you can grow and so you can do stuff.

因为你只是想把另一个齿轮放入特定的机器中，这样你就可以成长，这样你就可以做一些事情。

And that's an extreme example, but then you compare that to other parts of the world, it's much more consensus driven.

这是一个极端的例子，但如果你将其与世界其他地区进行比较，就会发现它更多地是由共识驱动的。

The team perceives itself as a team having a team goal.

团队将自己视为具有团队目标的团队。

John Cutler: They have a team objective.

约翰·卡特勒：他们有一个团队目标。

And certainly even in the Bay Area, there's companies that are more the collectivist vibe and the more.

当然，即使在湾区，也有一些公司更具集体主义氛围。

So to say that it's just about the world is not really just right.

所以说它只是关于世界并不完全正确。

So I think that yeah, the collectivist individualistic thing is important.

所以我认为，是的，集体主义个人主义很重要。

I do think that certain cultures are much more sort of hierarchically oriented.

我确实认为某些文化更具有等级导向。

John Cutler: There's much more deference to the hierarchy in the particular where people are sitting and the information flows in a certain way.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：在人们坐的特定位置和信息以某种方式流动时，对等级制度有更多的尊重。

And some companies tend to that being more bureaucratic.

有些公司倾向于更加官僚化。

And then some countries tend to that being like, it's still a tall company, but it's very much like you manager, you own this, you do this.

然后有些国家倾向于这样，它仍然是一家高大公司，但它非常像你的经理，你拥有这个，你做这个。

So it's not like rules are flowing from the top down.

所以规则并不是自上而下制定的。

It's more just a pretty big org chart.

它更像是一个相当大的组织结构图。

So those are some of the things that come to mind, yeah, as we're going through it.

是的，当我们经历这件事时，这些是我们想到的一些事情。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Lenny: This relates a lot to something else.

莱尼：这与其他事情有很大关系。

You often talk about that much of the advice on the internet and books, newsletters like ours is geared towards Silicon Valley type tech startups.

您经常谈论互联网和书籍上的大部分建议，像我们这样的时事通讯是针对硅谷类型的科技初创公司的。

Lenny: And in reality, most PMs don't work at companies like that.

Lenny：事实上，大多数产品经理并不在那样的公司工作。

A lot of them are going through transformations.

他们中的许多人正在经历转变。

Lenny: They're trying to transform the way their culture works.

莱尼：他们正在努力改变文化的运作方式。

And I imagine a lot of companies you work with are trying to get to that point and that just a lot of advice doesn't actually work for them.

我想你合作的很多公司都在努力实现这一点，但光有很多建议实际上对他们不起作用。

What have you found along those lines of just companies going through this and things you've learned there?

沿着这些经历的公司以及您从中学到的东西，您发现了什么？

John Cutler: So putting myself in the shoes of those particular companies, like I said, I think some of my most rewarding interactions have been with these non Silicon Valley companies.

约翰·卡特勒：因此，正如我所说，我将自己置于这些特定公司的立场上，我认为我最有价值的一些互动是与这些非硅谷公司的互动。

I certainly learn a lot when I talk to companies in the Bay Area and in the United States to do those particular things.

当我与湾区和美国的公司交谈以做这些特定的事情时，我当然学到了很多东西。

John Cutler: I think that the first thing to keep in mind is that those, let's just take these bigger companies for a second, big enterprise companies.

约翰·卡特勒：我认为首先要记住的是，让我们把这些更大的公司视为第二个大企业公司。

Part of the thing is just realizing how much inertia they're up against when you're chatting them.

部分原因是要意识到当你和他们聊天时他们会遇到多大的惯性。

So I do believe that there's some structural things that probably they could avoid, but then there's also just structural things that are just part of the game to do that.

所以我确实相信他们可能可以避免一些结构性的事情，但也有一些结构性的事情只是游戏的一部分。

John Cutler: So they'll be in situations where maybe none of the executives have shipped product before.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：所以他们可能会面临这样的情况：高管们以前可能都没有发货过产品。

They also assume that there's only one way to do things.

他们还认为做事只有一种方法。

Certainly in a lot of high performing companies, I have friends who will go and work at those companies.

当然，在很多高绩效公司中，我有朋友会去这些公司工作。

They're like, "Oh no, no one changes the rules here.

他们就像，“哦，不，没有人改变这里的规则。

We just do it this way at Amazon or we just do it," whatever.

我们在亚马逊就是这样做的，或者我们就这样做，”无论如何。

John Cutler: So this similar thing happens in these particular companies, like there's only one way to do things.

约翰·卡特勒：所以类似的事情发生在这些特定的公司中，就像只有一种方法来做事情一样。

They've got these crazy annual budgeting cycles and planning cycles, or maybe there's a big IT industrial complex that they're sort of trying to transform into doing these things.

他们有这些疯狂的年度预算周期和规划周期，或者可能有一个大型 IT 工业综合体，他们正试图将其转变为做这些事情。

So anyway, my point is, is that they, so many of these companies just have structural things that make it very difficult to just immediately convert that particular advice as they're doing that.

所以无论如何，我的观点是，他们中的许多公司只是有结构性的东西，这使得在他们这样做时很难立即转换特定的建议。

John Cutler: So I think the first thing that comes to mind with that is how to adapt that advice maybe for some of those larger kind of transforming companies.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我认为首先想到的是如何针对一些规模较大的转型公司调整该建议。

And I think that the couple things that I sort of remark on is that one, reps matter in those particular situations.

我认为我要评论的几件事是，代表在这些特定情况下很重要。

So in many of those companies, they should focus on creating these sort of areas or pods where a company can, a team can get in the reps that they're trying to be able to do.

因此，在许多这样的公司中，他们应该专注于创建公司可以、团队可以得到他们想要做的代表的此类区域或区域。

John Cutler: So it's sort of a little miniature version of that.

约翰·卡特勒：所以这有点微缩版。

And there's a whole problem with innovation labs.

创新实验室存在一个整体问题。

There's a whole problem with that kind of idea.

这种想法是有问题的。

But the idea that you can create these little bastions where a team can get in the reps is important.

但是，你可以创建这些小堡垒，让团队可以参与代表，这一想法很重要。

Lenny: And reps meaning shipping, shipping product.

莱尼：代表的意思是运输、运输产品。

John Cutler: Shipping and learning, going through the full loop.

John Cutler：运输和学习，经历整个循环。

Can they go through the full loop of what they're doing?

他们能完成他们正在做的事情的完整循环吗？

And I think that the other thing that comes up with that is that most of those companies need to think of frameworks appropriately.

我认为随之而来的另一件事是，大多数公司需要适当地考虑框架。

John Cutler: They'll read about these particular frameworks or what particular companies do or don't do.

约翰·卡特勒：他们会了解这些特定的框架或特定公司做什么或不做什么。

And I think that for a lot of those companies, they see adopting the frameworks as the end goal.

我认为对于很多这样的公司来说，他们将采用框架视为最终目标。

They kind of look there.

他们看起来好像在那里。

And sometimes maybe even you write a post, it's like, "Well, how does Figma work?" And they're like, "We use these frameworks."

有时甚至你写了一篇文章，就像是，“那么 Figma 是如何工作的？”他们就像，“我们使用这些框架。”

John Cutler: And so this company's like, "Well, we've got to use these framework." And I think that the way that I tend to think about frameworks is that they're more like a job aid.

约翰·卡特勒：所以这家公司就像是，“好吧，我们必须使用这些框架。”我认为我倾向于认为框架更像是一种工作辅助工具。

They're more like a learning tool that the team kind of uses to keep themself on track.

它们更像是一种学习工具，团队可以用它来让自己保持在正轨上。

But part of the thing is that those companies will reinvent the things they're using when things aren't working out.

但部分原因是，当事情不顺利时，这些公司将重新发明他们正在使用的东西。

John Cutler: So I think that that's another thing maybe some of those companies could benefit from doing, where we're getting kind of more into the kind of digital transformation or the big company space.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我认为这是另一件事，也许其中一些公司可以从中受益，我们正在更多地进入数字化转型或大公司空间。

But I think back to that particular question, I think you need to view a lot of advice coming from Silicon Valley just contextually.

但我回想一下这个特定的问题，我认为你需要结合上下文来看待来自硅谷的很多建议。

It's startup.

这是启动。

There's a tradition of how these companies work.

这些公司的运作方式有一个传统。

Many of them are just optimized very much for that first big arc of growth.

其中许多只是针对第一个大增长弧进行了非常优化。

John Cutler: They've never really been disrupted.

约翰·卡特勒：他们从未真正受到干扰。

The only disruption has come from scale, not from being a legacy, a huge global brand or huge global business, and then being disrupted by new things.

唯一的颠覆来自规模，而不是作为一个遗产、一个巨大的全球品牌或庞大的全球业务，然后被新事物颠覆。

The only problems, not the only because it's really hard, but the problems have been primarily scaling.

唯一的问题，不仅仅是因为它真的很难，而且问题主要在于扩展。

So they're kind of optimized for wrapping their head around that.

所以他们对这一点进行了优化。

John Cutler: And then many of them are just pure digital product companies.

约翰·卡特勒：其中许多只是纯粹的数字产品公司。

And so I think this is a thing that a lot of the big rideshare and food delivery conglomerates are figuring out.

所以我认为这是许多大型共享出行和食品配送集团正在解决的问题。

They're like, " Oh, this is a lot harder than we thought." When you're dealing with moving people around and logistics and things, it's an order of magnitude more complex to do that.

他们会说，“哦，这比我们想象的要困难得多。”当您处理人员流动、物流等事务时，要做到这一点要复杂一个数量级。

John Cutler: So I don't know if that helps kind of explain my perspective on that, but I think that it's like you have to adapt the advice and you also need to acknowledge that for some of these companies there are these sort of just structural areas of inertia that they're trying to work through and that a lot of them maybe need to adapt this advice on the small instead of thinking they're just going to install all the frameworks or install everything they're doing.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我不知道这是否有助于解释我对此的看法，但我认为这就像你必须调整这些建议，你还需要承认，对于其中一些公司来说，他们正在努力解决这些只是结构性的惯性领域，而且他们中的很多人可能需要在小的方面调整这个建议，而不是认为他们只是要安装所有框架或安装他们正在做的一切。

Lenny: Yeah, this is really, really good advice.

莱尼：是的，这真是非常非常好的建议。

I imagine folks are listening that may be working at a company like that.

我想人们正在听的可能是在这样的公司工作的人。

It feels like there's two sides to it.

感觉好像有两个方面。

One is there should just be an awareness of this may not work at us, we're not going to be Figma.

一是应该意识到这可能对我们不起作用，我们不会成为 Figma。

Lenny: And let's just get used to that.

莱尼：让我们习惯这一点吧。

And then two, this good reflection for me that I'm probably causing some damage with people reading a post on here's how Figma builds product.

第二点，这对我来说是一个很好的反映，我可能对阅读有关 Figma 如何构建产品的文章的人们造成了一些损害。

And then not adding a little bit of, maybe this won't work at your company.

然后不添加一点点，也许这在你的公司行不通。

John Cutler: But maybe it can.

约翰·卡特勒：但也许可以。

And I talk about this a lot, this sort of I do believe there's sort of this fundamental attribution bias at play where people in these high performings don't acknowledge the amount that luck and inertia has been a part of what they're doing.

我经常谈论这一点，我确实相信存在这种基本的归因偏差，表现出色的人们不承认运气和惯性是他们所做事情的一部分。

And that the people in the big companies, or these not, these companies that believe that it's not the way that they can do that actually overestimate the kind of systemic drag in their organization and underestimate what can be possible.

大公司或非大公司的人们相信这不是他们能做到的方式，实际上高估了组织中的系统性阻力，并低估了可能发生的事情。

John Cutler: And you think about that, we do that a lot in just our lives in general.

约翰·卡特勒：你想想看，我们在生活中经常这样做。

We see someone being really successful and we'll say, "Well, but my situation is this." And when things are working for us, we're like, "I'm a genius.

我们看到某人非常成功，我们会说：“好吧，但我的情况是这样的。”当事情对我们有利时，我们会说：“我是个天才。

I'm a genius doing this particular thing." When things work, we're competent.

我在做这件特别的事情上是个天才。”当一切顺利时，我们就有能力。

When things don't, it's like the system and everyone else's incompetence to be able to do it.

当事情做不到时，就好像系统和其他人都无能力做到这一点。

John Cutler: So I do think that there's opportunities.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我确实认为有机会。

I think there's another thing too, that there's a vast spectrum of companies.

我认为还有一件事，那就是公司种类繁多。

We paint some of these large enterprises on one end of the spectrum and then these other company, these modern product companies.

我们将其中一些大型企业归入这一范围的一端，然后将其他公司，即这些现代产品公司归为一类。

But I brought up that plumbing company in Australia.

但我提起了澳大利亚的那家管道公司。

You meet these companies, you know what?

你遇到这些公司，你知道吗？

Their revenue is literally 50 startups.

他们的收入实际上是 50 家初创公司。

They are not doing bad.

他们并没有做坏事。

They are not doing bad.

他们并没有做坏事。

John Cutler: And you know what?

约翰·卡特勒：你知道吗？

They're actually doing interesting things.

他们实际上正在做有趣的事情。

One of Amplitude's customers, Anheuser-Busch has this thing called BEES.

Anheuser-Busch 是 Amplitude 的客户之一，他们推出了一种名为 BEES 的产品。

And BEES is basically a liquor distribution app.

BEES 基本上是一个酒类分销应用程序。

And it's literally one of the biggest B2B companies in the world.

它确实是世界上最大的 B2B 公司之一。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

Anheuser-Busch, it's like what?

安海斯-布希公司，就像什么？

We're going to distribute beer because the pandemic.

由于大流行，我们将分发啤酒。

And so we're going to have, and I think actually they started to become more even used for logistics.

所以我们将会有，我认为实际上它们开始变得更加均匀地用于物流。

John Cutler: You're a bodega in one of those countries, you can order beer for doing it.

约翰·卡特勒：你是这些国家之一的杂货店，你可以点啤酒来做这件事。

So I think that we tend to kind of paint this world of, there's the big smoke companies and then there's the fast nimble companies, but there's everything in between.

所以我认为我们倾向于描绘这个世界，有大型烟草公司，然后有快速灵活的公司，但还有介于两者之间的一切。

Another example is a lot of tech companies started 2000 to 2008, kind of are on their third or fourth act at the moment, second or third or fourth act, bought a lot of companies, they're trying to absorb them.

另一个例子是，很多科技公司于 2000 年到 2008 年成立，目前正处于第三或第四幕，第二或第三或第四幕，收购了很多公司，他们试图吸收它们。

John Cutler: They might be trying a product-led growth motion by spanning all the different acquisitions they had.

约翰·卡特勒：他们可能正在通过跨越所有不同的收购来尝试以产品为主导的增长举措。

You know what?

你知道吗？

They are on top of their game.

他们在比赛中处于领先地位。

This is not a slouch company, but it's really hard for them to do that.

这不是一家无精打采的公司，但他们确实很难做到这一点。

Or we at Amplitude, we'd have a lot of, not old FinTech, but not newest companies.

或者我们在 Amplitude，我们有很多，不是老牌金融科技公司，也不是最新的公司。

They're printing money and they're just embracing this particular thing.

他们正在印钞票，他们只是在拥抱这个特殊的东西。

And then compare that to, I did a big Northstar session or more of a coaching session at NewBank in Brazil when there was just 15 people in a room and now they're massive.

然后将其与我在巴西 NewBank 进行的大型 Northstar 课程或更多辅导课程进行比较，当时房间里只有 15 个人，而现在他们人数众多。

John Cutler: So I think that we tend to paint things as a form of modern product adoption.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我认为我们倾向于将事物描绘成现代产品采用的一种形式。

There's the high performing companies and the low performing companies when in fact there's just a whole plethora and diversity of different companies riding different waves, adopting different things at different times.

有绩效高的公司和绩效低的公司，但事实上，有大量不同的公司在不同的浪潮中乘势而上，在不同的时间采用不同的东西。

And many of them doing really wholesome, humble, good work, just dealing with their circumstances at the particular time.

他们中的许多人都在做着真正健康、谦虚、出色的工作，只是在特定的时间处理他们的情况。

John Cutler: So I think everyone should absolutely know how Figma works, for example.

John Cutler：所以我认为每个人都应该绝对知道 Figma 是如何工作的。

And then we need to try to boost the stories of Angela and her team or some of these companies that you'd never even expect.

然后我们需要努力宣传安吉拉和她的团队或其中一些你从未想到的公司的故事。

There's a company here in Santa Barbara that's like, they do refrigeration, use AI to refrigerate industrial facilities.

圣巴巴拉有一家公司，他们从事制冷业务，使用人工智能来制冷工业设施。

And Carrie, who's the leader there, that company is one of the best leaders I know.

嘉莉是那里的领导者，该公司是我所认识的最好的领导者之一。

John Cutler: And Jesse, who's one of the founders is Harvard PhD student who understands AI doing these things.

约翰·卡特勒：创始人之一的杰西是哈佛大学的博士生，他了解人工智能如何做这些事情。

And I actually would encourage a lot of PMs to think about, look, especially in this economy, what are these unsexy businesses that are kicking butt and small here, it's in sunny Santa Barbara?

事实上，我会鼓励很多项目经理思考，看看，特别是在当前的经济形势下，这些在阳光明媚的圣巴巴拉却在蓬勃发展的小企业是什么？

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

I think that there's a lot more diversity than just the high performing, low performing spectrum.

我认为，除了高性能和低性能频谱之外，还有更多的多样性。

There's just a whole universe of fun companies out there.

那里有很多有趣的公司。

Lenny: Well, as you were talking, I was thinking about there's a small group of people like you and Marty Kagan and a few other folks that have worked with tons of different and diverse product teams and not just say, Silicon Valley teams.

莱尼：嗯，正如你所说，我在想有一小群像你和马蒂·卡根以及其他一些人一样与大量不同且多样化的产品团队合作过的人，而不仅仅是硅谷团队。

And I'm curious if there's any other names of folks you think listeners should follow if they work at maybe a non-Silicon Valley type team.

我很好奇是否还有其他人的名字，如果他们在非硅谷类型的团队工作，你认为听众应该关注他们。

Marty Kagan is who comes to mind first, but I don't know if you have anyone else.

第一个想到的是马蒂·卡根，但我不知道你是否还有其他人。

And if not, that's all good.

如果没有，那也很好。

John Cutler: Well, yeah, there's a couple people, but I feel like I should go back and just generate this full list for people.

约翰·卡特勒：嗯，是的，有几个人，但我觉得我应该回去为人们生成这个完整的列表。

Maybe it would be interesting.

也许这会很有趣。

Maybe I'll take that as an action item to...

也许我会把它作为一个行动项目......

Lenny: We'll put it in the show notes.

莱尼：我们会把它写在演出笔记中。

John Cutler: And I'll give you an example of one guy, and his name is John Smart, and he wrote this book called Better, Sooner, Safer, Happier.

约翰·卡特勒：我给你举一个例子，他的名字叫约翰·斯马特，他写了一本名为《更好、更快、更安全、更快乐》的书。

And he, I think he was at Barclays Bank.

而他，我认为他在巴克莱银行。

I think that's how you say it in England.

我想在英国你就是这么说的。

And what, he led this transformation.

而且，他领导了这一转变。

And then I think he's gone on to, he has a consultancy now for doing things.

然后我认为他已经继续，他现在有一家咨询公司来做事。

And the guy is just awesome to talk to.

和这个家伙交谈真是太棒了。

John Cutler: He's really, really humble about what the thing book, the book is really interesting.

约翰·卡特勒：他对这本书非常非常谦虚，这本书真的很有趣。

And the thing that I noticed when talking to John is the order of magnitude of complexity of problems that has unraveled and what he had to put in motion to take an old school bank and at least try to get some part of some kind of transformation working in that particular company, I think there's a whole realm of people like that.

在与约翰交谈时，我注意到的是已经解决的问题的复杂性以及他必须采取的措施来接管一家老派银行，并至少尝试在该特定公司中进行某种转型，我认为整个领域都有这样的人。

And I'm going to list a, maybe I'll follow up with a couple more lists of people.

我将列出一个人，也许我会再列出几个人的名单。

John Cutler: Who can do that.

约翰·卡特勒：谁能做到这一点。

And then I do think there's the people like Teresa Torres and others that have come up with a technique that is universal.

然后我确实认为像特蕾莎·托雷斯和其他人这样的人已经想出了一种通用的技术。

You can teach an element of product thinking with her techniques or this opportunity solution tree or this continuous discovery thing that everyone can find accessible no matter where your company is at.

你可以用她的技术或这个机会解决方案树或这个持续发现的东西来教授产品思维的元素，无论你的公司在哪里，每个人都可以找到可用的东西。

And I have a lot of respect for those types of techniques because they're more universal versus some very arcane niche activity.

我非常尊重这些类型的技术，因为它们比一些非常神秘的小众活动更通用。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Cool.

凉爽的。

And then we'll do our best to include whatever full list you come up with in the show notes.

然后我们将尽力将您提出的所有完整列表包含在演出笔记中。

Lenny: So I've been asking a lot of very specific questions.

莱尼：所以我一直在问很多非常具体的问题。

I want to give us a chance to kind of zoom out a little bit.

我想给我们一个机会稍微缩小一下范围。

Lenny: And see what other advice you may have for product managers and the product community broadly.

Lenny：看看您对产品经理和产品社区还有哪些其他建议。

It feels like you're in this kind of reflective phase after working with all these companies and you take time, you have more time to think.

在与所有这些公司合作之后，感觉就像你正处于这种反思阶段，你需要时间，你有更多的时间思考。

So I'm curious what comes to mind when you think of just, here's advice I have to share.

所以我很好奇，当你想到我必须分享的建议时，你会想到什么。

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

I think kind of going back to the reps thing, I think that there's this fire hose of amazing information that's out there and I contributed to it and you contribute to it.

我想回到代表的事情上来，我认为那里有大量令人惊叹的信息，我为它做出了贡献，你也为它做出了贡献。

And there's just, I mean, think what a time to be alive.

我的意思是，想想活着是多么美好的时光啊。

You can literally just.

你确实可以。

John Cutler: Get these podcasts going.

约翰·卡特勒：让这些播客继续下去。

You can listen to anything you want.

您可以听任何您想听的内容。

John Cutler: That's pretty amazing.

约翰·卡特勒：这真是太神奇了。

And I was thinking to myself the joke as I saw you put this thing about Andrew Huberman about who gives these sort of life hacks thing.

当我看到你把关于安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）的事情说成是关于谁提供了这些生活窍门的事情时，我心里在想这个笑话。

It's like there is absolutely a place for this type of content.

就好像这种类型的内容绝对有一席之地。

I just want someone to summarize what the hell I should do when I wake up in the morning.

我只是想让有人总结一下我早上醒来时到底应该做什么。

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

I got my sunlight.

我得到了我的阳光。

I went from my sunlight before screens to prepare for our talk today.

我离开屏幕前的阳光，准备今天的演讲。

John Cutler: I have it in my habit tracker, sunlight before screens every day.

约翰·卡特勒：我的习惯追踪器里有它，每天屏幕前的阳光。

Yeah, I got my watch that I got a couple, I'm on vacation.

是的，我有我的手表，我有一对，我正在度假。

I'm between jobs now.

我现在正处于两份工作之间。

So it's about all health.

所以这关系到所有的健康。

John Cutler: But I think that you need to keep in mind that this is a skill and skill is knowledge times practice mediated by your environment, the habits you form and the motivation that you have and the particular things.

约翰·卡特勒：但我认为你需要记住，这是一种技能，而技能是由你的环境、你形成的习惯、你拥有的动机和特定事物介导的知识和实践。

And so I think that I learned about that a lot working with learning experience designers in Amplitude that we tend to think that this is just a function of the knowledge that we pick up and the number of podcasts that we listen to.

因此，我认为我在与 Amplitude 的学习体验设计师合作时学到了很多东西，我们倾向于认为这只是我们获取的知识和我们收听的播客数量的函数。

But really it's about going through this loop.

但实际上这是要经历这个循环。

So in Amplitude, we have this data informed product loop that we would teach, and it's basically, you need a strategy, you need to develop qualitative models, you need to add measurement to those models.

因此，在 Amplitude 中，我们拥有我们将教授的数据通知产品循环，基本上，您需要一个策略，您需要开发定性模型，您需要向这些模型添加测量。

So Northstar framework would be an example of a qualitative model.

因此，Northstar 框架将是定性模型的一个示例。

You need to add measurement to those models, figure out how you're doing it.

您需要向这些模型添加测量，弄清楚您是如何做到的。

John Cutler: You need to prioritize where to focus.

约翰·卡特勒：你需要优先考虑重点关注的地方。

You need to design bets, you need to measure the impact of those bets.

你需要设计赌注，你需要衡量这些赌注的影响。

And then you need to circulate what you learned back into the strategy, back into your models, back into how you prioritize, et cetera.

然后你需要将你学到的知识传回策略、模型、优先顺序等等。

And it helps you figure out where you're kind of weak at the moment.

它可以帮助你找出你目前的弱点。

John Cutler: So for example, you need a strategy.

约翰·卡特勒：举个例子，你需要一个策略。

Without that, nothing is possible.

没有它，一切都是不可能的。

But you could have an amazing strategy and you don't deploy it with the right models, no one can prioritize them.

但你可能有一个令人惊叹的策略，但你没有使用正确的模型来部署它，没有人可以优先考虑它们。

We could do all that right, but you don't design any bets and can't ship anything.

我们可以把这一切都做对，但你不能设计任何赌注，也不能运送任何东西。

Oh, that's kind of a problem.

哦，这有点问题。

But you could do all that right and you don't know the impact of anything you ship.

但你可以把这一切都做对，但你不知道你发布的任何东西的影响。

John Cutler: But you could even do all that right and not circulate the learning back in your company and then you're still not going to succeed in these things.

约翰·卡特勒：但是你甚至可以把所有这些都做对，而不是在你的公司中传播学习成果，那么你仍然不会在这些事情上取得成功。

So that's an example of when I mean by the loop.

这就是我所说的循环的一个例子。

And so one thing you could think about for your career that I think people should focus on, and also in terms of sharing the content that they share.

因此，你可以为你的职业生涯考虑一件事，我认为人们应该关注这一点，以及分享他们分享的内容。

John Cutler: So we're sharing a lot of content around knowledge and job aids, knowledge and job aids, and maybe a little bit of motivation, like how did that person succeed and do that and...

约翰·卡特勒：所以我们分享了很多关于知识和工作辅助的内容，知识和工作辅助，也许还有一点动机，比如这个人是如何成功并做到这一点的……

But if you think about your career, just think about how many times can you get around that loop and what are you putting, because I worry that people are loaded up with knowledge and feel almost...

但如果你考虑一下你的职业生涯，只要想想你能绕过这个循环多少次，以及你要投入什么，因为我担心人们充满了知识，感觉几乎......

I meet some of these leaders and they feel beaten up by the advice industry.

我遇到了其中一些领导者，他们感到自己被咨询行业打败了。

John Cutler: They feel beaten up that they can never be good enough.

约翰·卡特勒：他们感觉自己被打败了，因为自己永远都不够好。

They cannot be like whatever company, or they feel like their company's never good enough, like they can't empower their team, they just can't follow anyone's advice.

他们不能像任何公司一样，或者他们觉得自己的公司永远不够好，就像他们无法赋予团队权力，他们只是无法遵循任何人的建议。

And so I think people are beating themselves up when I think that you shift for some people to focus to taking that knowledge and just getting that loop going for your teams or getting that loop going for your career or getting that loop going for your company is probably a pretty safe bet.

因此，当我认为你让某些人专注于获取这些知识并让这个循环适合你的团队或让这个循环适合你的职业生涯或让这个循环适合你的公司可能是一个相当安全的赌注时，我认为人们正在自责。

So I would think that that's one thing that comes to mind.

所以我认为这是我想到的一件事。

Lenny: Partly being responsible for some of that is what I...

莱尼：我对其中的一些事情负有部分责任......

Lenny: My advice to people is don't feel like you need to read everything coming across your plate.

莱尼：我对人们的建议是，不要觉得你需要阅读你盘子里的所有内容。

Lenny: It's instead wait for the moment when you need that thing.

莱尼： 而是等待你需要那个东西的那一刻。

I'm working on SEO right now.

我现在正在从事 SEO 工作。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Lenny: I saved that thing about SEO, I'm going to go do it.

Lenny：我保存了关于 SEO 的事情，我要去去做。

Just like a just in time learning because you learn it so much better and like, "Oh, shit.

就像及时学习一样，因为你学得更好，并且喜欢，“哦，该死。

I have to load all the stuff in my head in case it becomes useful."

我必须把所有的东西都装进脑子里，以防它变得有用。”

John Cutler: Absolutely.

约翰·卡特勒：当然。

And I think one thing you think of is think about the podcast you listen to and think about that content is almost like you don't know what you don't know often.

我认为你想到的一件事就是想想你听的播客，想想那些内容几乎就像你不知道你经常不知道的东西一样。

So I think that the challenge is, is that if you've been doing PM for a while, product management for a while, you don't really, I don't fit everything in my head.

所以我认为挑战在于，如果你已经做了一段时间的产品管理、一段时间的产品管理，你真的不会，我脑子里的一切都不适合。

John Cutler: I just, for example, pricing.

约翰·卡特勒：我只是举个例子，定价。

I know pricing is a thing.

我知道定价是一件事。

I know that there's some people are amazing at pricing.

我知道有些人的定价非常惊人。

I know that if someone told me like, "Well, you should just price it like this," my spidey sense would say, "You don't know what you're talking about because I know that there's more to it than just what you just said." You develop your spidey sense for things and you know that there's people.

我知道，如果有人告诉我，“好吧，你应该这样定价，”我敏锐的直觉会说，“你不知道你在说什么，因为我知道这不仅仅是你刚才说的。”你对事物产生了敏锐的感知力，你知道有人。

You have to dip your toes in understanding.

你必须努力去理解。

That's the beauty of podcasts, your mind can get blown and then it puts in the back of your brain.

这就是播客的美妙之处，你的思绪可能会被震撼，然后它就会进入你的大脑深处。

You're like, there are some people who know a lot about that versus the founder who believes that they're going to figure everything out for themselves and is just like, no, it's actually a thing.

你会说，有些人对此了解很多，而创始人则相信他们会自己解决所有问题，并且就像，不，这实际上是一件事。

John Cutler: Pricing is a thing or you know what?

约翰·卡特勒：定价是一个问题，你知道吗？

Meeting design is a thing.

会议设计是一回事。

There's people who obsess about it or service design is a thing or interaction design or strategy .

有人痴迷于它或服务设计是一件事或交互设计或策略。

So that's building on what you said, I think that there is a, especially if you're starting out, there is a definite value of almost seeing the 501 level courses or hearing that genius lecturer.

因此，基于您所说的，我认为，特别是如果您刚开始，几乎看到 501 级别课程或听到那位天才讲师的演讲是有一定价值的。

John Cutler: When you're in college as a freshman, I remember, I dropped out, but you would see the genius professor and you wouldn't understand any of it, but you'd know it's a thing and then it helped you guide the way you're doing.

约翰·卡特勒：我记得，当你在大学读新生时，我退学了，但你会看到天才教授，你不会理解其中的任何内容，但你会知道这是一件事，然后它帮助你指导你的做法。

So I think that you should kind of balance out those things.

所以我认为你应该平衡这些事情。

But to your point, at the end of the day, you got to just put this stuff in motion somehow.

但就你而言，最终，你必须以某种方式将这些东西付诸行动。

Lenny: And then just know that it's there when you need it.

莱尼：然后就知道当你需要它的时候它就在那里。

Find some way to store it.

找到一些方法来存储它。

Lenny: Save it.

莱尼：保存起来。

Maybe even just assume Google will find it for you.

也许甚至只是假设谷歌会为你找到它。

Lenny: One more question along that same thread is you talked about the importance of going through these loops.

莱尼：同一主题的另一个问题是您谈到了经历这些循环的重要性。

At some companies, you just can't really, the company moves slowly, it's super waterfall, they plan really long.

在一些公司，你真的做不到，公司行动缓慢，这是超级瀑布，他们的计划很长。

Do you have any advice for someone that's like, "Oh, I want to go through loops more often?

您对那些“哦，我想更频繁地进行循环吗？”的人有什么建议吗？

This is really good advice."

这确实是一个很好的建议。”

John Cutler: Point number one is you often underestimate what loops are available to you in that company.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：第一点是你经常低估该公司可以提供的循环。

They throw up their hands.

他们举起双手。

I've tried to mentor people like this and I think we've done a decent job, but the first thing I'm like, "Just don't throw up your hands and say it's all going to shit." Just at least document what was the.

我曾尝试指导这样的人，我认为我们做得不错，但我首先想说的是，“不要举手说这一切都会一团糟。”至少记录一下是什么。

John Cutler: So even if someone from on high says, "Build X," you can at least say, "You know what?

约翰·卡特勒：所以，即使有人从高处说，“构建 X”，你至少可以说，“你知道吗？

Selected option is X.

所选选项为 X。

What would the one-pager look like if X was one of five options?" Write the one-pager.

如果 X 是五个选项之一，那么一页纸会是什么样子？” 写下一页纸。

Go and talk to that executive and say, "Look, I know you've told me to do this, but what would we observe if this was working versus not working?

去和那位高管交谈并说：“听着，我知道你已经告诉我这样做了，但是如果这有效与无效，我们会观察到什么？

I'm here to help you with that."

我来这里是为了帮助你。”

John Cutler: Great.

约翰·卡特勒：太好了。

You've got some metrics along is what you're doing.

您正在做的事情已经有了一些指标。

Just nudge it.

只需轻推它即可。

Just one little thing.

只是一件小事。

Hey, nothing's stopping you from writing down all the potential assumptions and risks that you have.

嘿，没有什么可以阻止您写下所有潜在的假设和风险。

Even if someone's like, "Forget all that, you're just going to build the thing." You've gone through the motions for doing it.

即使有人会说，“忘掉这一切，你只是去建造这个东西。”你已经走过场了。

John Cutler: And I think people underestimate that because the environments are kind of feel like stellifying, I guess is one word, or stilted.

约翰·卡特勒：我认为人们低估了这一点，因为环境有点像僵化，我想就是一个词，或者是生硬。

And so they just sort of throw up their hands.

所以他们只是举手。

But I would say that work with what you've got, because the last thing you want is to have a job opportunity two or three years from then and all you can do is shrug your shoulders and say, "I worked at a fucked up.

但我想说的是，用你所拥有的东西工作，因为你最不想要的就是两三年后有一个工作机会，而你所能做的就是耸耸肩说：“我的工作一团糟。

I worked at a messed up company."

我在一家混乱的公司工作。”

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

So you, "I worked at a messed up company.

所以你，“我在一家混乱的公司工作。

It was all shit." You're not really honoring yourself for doing that.

这都是狗屎。”你这样做并没有真正为自己感到荣幸。

So I'd say that that's my point about the fundamental attribution bias.

所以我想说这就是我关于基本归因偏差的观点。

Is it hard?

难吗？

Yes.

是的。

Is it easier in those Silicon Valley companies?

那些硅谷公司更容易吗？

Well, maybe not.

嗯，也许不是。

Maybe those are a shit show too.

也许这些也是一部狗屎剧。

I've talked to plenty of them that are shit shows.

我和很多垃圾节目谈过。

John Cutler: But do you have an opportunity to kind of nudge things forward in your space?

约翰·卡特勒：但是你有机会推动你所在领域的发展吗？

Probably.

可能吧。

And bring to the systems thing, is it true that some people don't have the privilege of leaving their company for whatever reason?

说到系统问题，是否真的有些人因为某种原因没有离开公司的特权？

That is true also.

这也是事实。

So many things can be true, but that doesn't mean that you can't try, I think to kind of almost write your portfolio as you go.

很多事情都可能是真的，但这并不意味着你不能尝试，我认为几乎可以边走边写你的作品集。

Because if you wait two years, you're going to think it was just all a blur and messed up.

因为如果你等两年，你会认为这只是一片模糊和混乱。

Whereas the opportunities might be there in your day-to-day as you're working through.

而在你的日常工作中，机会可能就存在。

Lenny: I love how much your advice is optimistic and empowering and not just, "That's the way it is." And...

莱尼：我喜欢你的建议，这些建议非常乐观且充满力量，而不仅仅是“事情就是这样”。还有...

Lenny: And your point about how top tier companies can also be messed up and everything could be going to shit is very true.

莱尼：你关于顶级公司也可能陷入混乱、一切都可能变得一团糟的观点是非常正确的。

Especially a hyper-growth company where you're just...

尤其是一家高速增长的公司，你只是......

Lenny: Constantly changing.

莱尼：不断变化。

It's also very chaotic and things are just breaking all the time.

它也非常混乱，事情总是在发生变化。

John Cutler: And there's people too who just assume it just has to be that way.

约翰·卡特勒：也有人认为事情就必须如此。

I would say that one model that I use is the sort of the chronic and acute challenges of the companies.

我想说，我使用的一种模型是公司的长期和尖锐挑战。

And especially in the last year, you meet a bunch of companies dealing with the same economic conditions.

尤其是在去年，你会遇到很多面临相同经济状况的公司。

And I will tell you, no, not all companies are equally dysfunctional.

我会告诉你，不，并非所有公司都同样功能失调。

John Cutler: And no, not all high performing companies are equally beautiful in all roses.

约翰·卡特勒：不，并非所有高绩效公司都同样美丽。

Legitimately some companies work down the chronic issues, which allows them to face the acute stressors, and other companies are just mired in acute issues to do those things.

一些公司合法地解决了长期问题，这使他们能够面对严重的压力源，而其他公司只是陷入了严重问题才去做这些事情。

So it's kind of, again, both things can be true.

所以，这又是两件事都可能是真的。

It's like, yeah, there's nothing perfect in product.

就像，是的，产品没有完美的东西。

However, it is true that some companies are healthier than others.

然而，确实有些公司比其他公司更健康。

John Cutler: An example of that is the companies that leaned in to responding to the pandemic instead of counting the days until it was over.

约翰·卡特勒：一个例子是，一些公司倾向于应对疫情，而不是数着日子直到疫情结束。

Massive difference.

巨大的差异。

I've seen this over and over, probably with 15 to 20 companies.

我已经一遍又一遍地看到这种情况，可能有 15 到 20 家公司。

The companies that were intentional in designing their response to the pandemic versus being like, "Just let managers deal with it, whatever, we're just going to sort it out," have had an order of magnitude better.

那些有意设计应对疫情的应对措施的公司，而不是“让经理们处理它，无论如何，我们只是要解决它”，情况要好一个数量级。

John Cutler: Now maybe the share price hasn't necessarily reflected it, but the happiness of the people there, they're going to come out of this stronger than the companies that were just like, "It's going to go back to normal and we're going to delay all these org design decisions until some future date." So I don't know if that tells you about high performing, but it's like the high performing companies saw the threat of what existed and then took deliberate steps, coherent steps to frame what their response would be.

约翰·卡特勒：现在也许股价不一定反映了这一点，但那里的人们的幸福感，他们会比那些只是说“一切都会恢复正常，我们将把所有这些组织设计决策推迟到未来某个日期”的公司更强大。所以我不知道这是否告诉你关于高绩效的信息，但这就像高绩效公司看到了存在的威胁，然后采取了深思熟虑的步骤，连贯的步骤来制定他们的应对措施。

So that's just an example of that.

这只是其中的一个例子。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I took us off track a little bit.

我让我们有点偏离了轨道。

I think you were going to go onto a second piece of advice.

我想你会提出第二条建议。

John Cutler: Yeah, I think that there's, well, okay, so one, definitely slightly annoy.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，我认为，好吧，所以，肯定有点烦人。

John Cutler: Yeah, I think that there's, well, okay, so one definitely slightly annoying to me recently...

约翰·卡特勒：是的，我认为，嗯，好吧，所以最近肯定有点烦我......

I'll just get into the stuff that annoys me is that-

我只想谈谈让我烦恼的事情——

John Cutler: I personally don't think, I used to use words a lot, like product sense and product mindset and product things like that.

约翰·卡特勒：我个人不认为，我过去经常使用词语，比如产品意识、产品心态和产品之类的东西。

I'm personally trying to do a better job this year about trying to unpack those things as legitimate skills and competencies.

我个人今年正努力做得更好，尝试将这些东西分解为合法的技能和能力。

So if you think about product sense, what is it?

那么如果你考虑产品感，它是什么？

Might be the ability to model problems, systems thinking, decision-making under conditions of uncertainty, facilitation tools that you have the ability to look at a competitive ecosystem and maybe see a thing and yeah, maybe there's a little bit of sense to it.

可能是对问题进行建模、系统思考、不确定条件下决策的能力，以及促进工具，你有能力观察竞争性的生态系统，也许会看到一些东西，是的，也许有一点意义。

It's like, "I want to help customers," or whatever.

就像“我想帮助客户”之类的。

But I think that I'm trying to make a concerted effort to unpack those things into things that could be taught.

但我认为我正在努力将这些东西分解成可以教授的东西。

John Cutler: And that's going to certainly be part of my role at toast.

约翰·卡特勒：这肯定是我在祝酒会上的角色的一部分。

The last thing I want to do is be like you have a product mindset or you don't.

我最不想做的就是让你认为你有产品心态，或者没有。

A great example, I was even talking with Craig just the other day and we were talking about how in some environments there's this should/can divide, which I really like, which is some people are just locked into the can.

一个很好的例子，我什至前几天与克雷格交谈，我们谈论在某些环境中如何存在这种应该/可以划分，我真的很喜欢，即有些人只是被锁在罐子里。

They're uber pragmatic people, so it's like, "Can we do this?

他们是非常务实的人，所以就像是，“我们可以这样做吗？

Is it possible, given the debt, whatever constraints that you have?" And then there's people who for some reason go in and say, "Should we do it?

考虑到债务，无论你有什么限制，这可能吗？”然后有人出于某种原因进来说：“我们应该这样做吗？

What should we do here?

我们应该在这里做什么？

If those things were not an issue, what should we do?" So it's very easy to...

如果这些都不是问题，我们该怎么办？”所以很容易......

I joked with Craig, it's like it's so easy to go down the path of being like, "Well there's can people and should people, there's high agency people and low agency people, there's this person and that person."

我和克雷格开玩笑说，似乎很容易走上这样的道路：“嗯，有可以的人和应该的人，有高代理的人和低代理的人，有这个人和那个人。”

John Cutler: It's much more interesting to go and be like, "Yeah, there might be a little bit of a personality component to it, but what skills is the should person bringing to bear on that particular situation?" Maybe it's a level of systems thinking, maybe it's a level of looking at the environment and being able to decouple the current tactics from maybe the optimal tactics for doing it.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：更有趣的是，“是的，其中可能有一点个性成分，但是该人应该在特定情况下运用什么技能？”也许这是一个系统思考的水平，也许这是一个观察环境的水平，并且能够将当前的策略与可能的最佳策略脱钩。

So that's one thing that I'm excited about, to do that.

所以这是我很兴奋的一件事，就是这样做。

And yeah, there's a bunch of other things.

是的，还有很多其他的事情。

The diverse perspectives, diverse mental models, maybe working with someone like you to try to raise up some of this more diverse...

不同的观点，不同的思维模式，也许与像你这样的人一起努力提出一些更多样化的......

I really want someone to be like who's working at some company X, to be able to go and say, " Now that leader I can relate to, they're dealing with certain challenges that we are having to deal with at our company," and I'd love them to be able to have role models like that.

我真的希望有人像在某家 X 公司工作的人一样，能够去说：“现在我能理解的领导者，他们正在应对我们公司必须应对的某些挑战，”我希望他们能够拥有这样的榜样。

Lenny: Like highlight people that aren't on Twitter that are doing the work.

Lenny：就像突出那些不在 Twitter 上但正在做这项工作的人一样。

John Cutler: And not like meeting here.

约翰·卡特勒：不喜欢在这里见面。

Not any of these particular people where they can say, "Well that leader..." I was speaking to someone recently, I wrote about this in my newsletter and she was just sort of forlorn.

没有任何一个特定的人可以说，“那个领导者……”我最近和某人交谈过，我在时事通讯中写到了这一点，她只是有点孤独。

She was like, "I follow these people in this space and I know what my beliefs are and I know that that person has beliefs that I'm not sure vibing with completely.

她说，“我在这个领域关注这些人，我知道我的信仰是什么，我知道那个人的信仰我不确定是否完全认同。

But the message to me is, the only way to get ahead in tech is to have those beliefs.

但我想传达的信息是，在科技领域取得进步的唯一方法就是拥有这些信念。

And John, is that right?

约翰，是这样吗？

Do you need to believe this?" In this case, it was this very individualistic, very meritocratic kind of get ahead, push ahead type of vibe, which I respect that thought leader for putting out there, but this person didn't buy into it, which would've all been okay except she said, "Is there a place for me in this environment.

你需要相信这一点吗？”在这种情况下，这是一种非常个人主义、非常任人唯贤的那种出人头地、推动式的氛围，我尊重那个思想领袖提出的这种氛围，但这个人没有接受它，这一切都没关系，除非她说，“在这个环境中有我的位置吗？

Will I need to sacrifice my beliefs to get ahead?"

我需要牺牲我的信仰才能取得成功吗？”

John Cutler: And I told her about some companies that I know.

约翰·卡特勒：我告诉她我知道的一些公司。

I told her about Carrie, who I just mentioned, who's been working on building the diversity, even in a small company.

我向她介绍了我刚才提到的嘉莉（Carrie），即使在一家小公司，她也一直致力于建立多样性。

I told her about different leaders in different companies that, "Hey, there's some companies where it is a real team vibe and there's some companies that that", and she was like, "That's really good to know.

我告诉她不同公司的不同领导者，“嘿，有些公司有真正的团队氛围，有些公司就是这样”，她说，“很高兴知道这一点。

So I think that that's one thing I want to work on in the next year, to make sure that people have role models and not the people talking like me, but actual...

所以我认为这是我明年想要做的一件事，以确保人们有榜样，而不是那些像我一样说话的人，而是实际的......

Maybe I could be a role model to people in my new role, but ideally there's role model leaders who they can relate to.

也许我可以成为担任新职位的人们的榜样，但理想情况下，有可以与他们产生共鸣的榜样领导者。

That would be great.

那太好了。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I feel like you just talking about that makes an impact there.

我觉得你刚刚谈论的这件事会产生影响。

Something I'm definitely trying to do with this podcast is not just have all the same people that we see on Twitter all day and have a lot of people people have never heard of, but if you have suggestions, let's definitely talk offline.

我肯定想通过这个播客做的事情不仅仅是让我们整天在 Twitter 上看到的都是同样的人，还有很多人们从未听说过的人，但如果你有建议，我们一定要离线讨论。

I'd love to do more and more of this.

我很乐意做越来越多这样的事情。

Lenny: So those are clearly some of the things on your mind as you're kind of in this period of reflection.

莱尼：所以这些显然是你在这个反思时期想到的一些事情。

I'm curious if you are going to keep writing and keep your newsletter up, maybe publish more books and then just broadly, how do you make time, while you have a day job, to write?

我很好奇你是否打算继续写作并保持你的时事通讯，也许出版更多的书，然后广泛地说，当你有一份日常工作时，你如何腾出时间来写作？

Because a lot of people always wonder that.

因为很多人总是想知道这一点。

I'm curious if you have any pieces of advice.

我很好奇你是否有任何建议。

John Cutler: I'm obsessed with the writing, obviously, and I think a bit of background about me is I was pretty involved in music and song writing and it was similar kind of thing, I just liked writing lots of songs.

约翰·卡特勒：显然，我对写作很着迷，我认为我的一些背景是我非常参与音乐和歌曲创作，这是类似的事情，我只是喜欢写很多歌曲。

I like that there's a certain buzz you get when you're creating.

我喜欢在创作时感受到的某种嗡嗡声。

And in the case of music, it'd be like you record the demo and you get it out there.

就音乐而言，就像您录制演示然后将其发布一样。

I think what people have correctly picked up on is because I have a full-time job, sometimes it'll be Thursday night and my kid's finally asleep and it's one in the morning and I'm just like, "I've got to write this post." And so sometimes it comes off as being a little bit rough or even accentuating the fact that I don't give them an answer because it's like two o'clock in the morning now and I don't want to give them an answer.

我认为人们正确地接受的是因为我有一份全职工作，有时会在周四晚上，我的孩子终于睡着了，而此时是凌晨一点，我就想，“我必须写这篇文章。”所以有时它会显得有点粗暴，甚至强调了我没有给他们答案的事实，因为现在就像凌晨两点，我不想给他们答案。

I want to go to sleep to do these things.

我想去睡觉做这些事情。

John Cutler: So I think one of the things I'm going to hope to do is maybe be more deliberate about trying to provide at least maybe some mental models for dealing with the mess.

约翰·卡特勒：所以我认为我希望做的一件事可能是更加深思熟虑地尝试提供至少一些处理混乱的心理模型。

I mean there's things like that out there.

我的意思是那里有类似的事情。

There's this thing , which is a way to understand the systems and decision-making problems have, are you dealing with a clear system, a complicated system, a complex system, or a chaotic system?

有这样一个东西，这是一种理解系统和决策问题的方法，你正在处理一个清晰的系统，一个复杂的系统，一个复杂的系统，还是一个混沌的系统？

And I like things like that because that helps do two things I like.

我喜欢这样的事情，因为这有助于做我喜欢的两件事。

One, I want to give people something actionable to be able to address what they're doing, but it doesn't remove the complexity in the particular situation.

第一，我想为人们提供一些可行的方法来解决他们正在做的事情，但这并不能消除特定情况下的复杂性。

So I have role models in that.

所以我在这方面有榜样。

This guy, Simon Wardly does this kind of mapping, which I think is great.

西蒙·沃德利（Simon Wardly）这个人做了这种映射，我认为这很棒。

There's these other techniques that I want to try to lean into and maybe develop some of my own that sort of help people have something actionable and embrace the mess, if that makes sense.

我想尝试使用其他一些技术，也许还可以开发一些我自己的技术，帮助人们获得可行的东西并接受混乱，如果这有意义的话。

John Cutler: So for example, I recently wrote about something called the leadership, the Pyramid of Leadership, self awareness.

约翰·卡特勒：例如，我最近写了一篇关于领导力、领导力金字塔、自我意识的文章。

And it's a simple model, but it goes deep how I want it to go deep.

这是一个简单的模型，但它按照我想要的方式深入。

So the idea is that at first we know nothing about ourself and then the next level is that we start to become self-aware, but believe the whole world is wired just like we're wired.

所以我们的想法是，一开始我们对自己一无所知，然后下一个层次是我们开始变得有自我意识，但相信整个世界都是有线的，就像我们一样。

And then you go up to the next level and you believe that the world thinks different things, but you still think your way is the best way to be able to do that.

然后你上升到一个新的水平，你相信世界有不同的想法，但你仍然认为你的方式是能够做到这一点的最佳方式。

So an example is, I remember talking to an executive and they're like, "People only stay because of their managers and because of their money.

举个例子，我记得和一位高管交谈过，他们说：“人们留下来只是因为他们的经理和他们的钱。

That's it." And I said, "Everyone?" They said, "Yes." "Do you believe that?" "Yes, because everyone believes it.

就是这样。”我说：“每个人？”他们说：“是的。” “你相信吗？” “是的，因为大家都相信。

It's a physical law of light." And here I am like, "Oh my God, I joined a company because the mission of the company or whatever."

这是光的物理定律。”在这里我想，“天哪，我加入一家公司是因为公司的使命或其他什么。”

John Cutler: So they're kind of stuck down on that second level where they believe that, "Yeah, the world thinks different things, but I'm absolutely right." And then as you get up to the top, you become a little bit more aware that there's other valid views and then at the top you're sort of like, "No, you don't dishonor yourself and throw away who you are, but you realize that this is a huge asset in the world, that there's diverse views that you can bring together to do really, really amazing things." So that's an example of some writing I've even done recently where I'm kind of like, it's a complex topic, but I try to make it more actionable to do that.

约翰·卡特勒：所以他们有点陷入第二个层次，他们相信，“是的，世界有不同的想法，但我绝对是对的。”然后，当你到达顶峰时，你会更加意识到还有其他有效的观点，然后在顶峰你会有点像，“不，你不会羞辱自己并抛弃你自己，但你意识到这是世界上的一笔巨大资产，你可以将不同的观点聚集在一起，做出真正、真正令人惊奇的事情。”这是我最近写的一些文章的一个例子，我觉得这是一个复杂的主题，但我试图让它变得更可行。

So that's one whole thing.

这就是一件事。

The other thing too is leveraging all the crap that I have.

另一件事也是利用我所拥有的所有废话。

I think it's like 700, 800 posts, maybe 900.

我想大概有 700、800 个帖子，也许 900 个。

John Cutler: I had this whole blog beforehand that I did it.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：我之前就有了整个博客。

And then I have these hundreds of images with these frameworks and then it's like 50, 70 talks that I've done floating on YouTube and then there's all the mural boards I made at Amplitude.

然后我有数百张带有这些框架的图像，然后我在 YouTube 上做了 50、70 场演讲，然后是我在 Amplitude 制作的所有壁画板。

It's a different model.

这是一个不同的模型。

So I kind of feel like I could pull some of that together to make it more actionable for people, give people almost like a meta guide to Cutler content so that they're not just dropped into me writing something at 1:00 AM and being like, "Oh, just another one of those." Like, "Damn it, you didn't give me an alternative to NPS.

因此，我觉得我可以将其中的一些内容整合在一起，使其对人们更具可操作性，为人们提供几乎就像卡特勒内容的元指南，这样他们就不会只是让我在凌晨 1:00 写一些东西，然后说，“哦，只是其中的另一个。”就像，“该死，你没有给我 NPS 之外的替代方案。

This newsletter sucks." I mean, frankly, I would say the same thing too if I just stumbled into the newsletter to do it.

这则新闻通讯很糟糕。”坦白说，我的意思是，如果我只是无意中看到时事通讯，我也会说同样的话。

So those are a couple things that I'm thinking about for the content, definitely not going to stop doing those, sharing those things and doing that.

因此，这些是我在内容中考虑的几件事，绝对不会停止做这些事情、分享这些事情并这样做。

So yeah, excited about this next year.

所以，是的，明年对此感到兴奋。

John Cutler: Also, the question about writing, I mean, one thing with a full-time job where most of my work is internal, obviously I need to respect my team.

约翰·卡特勒：另外，关于写作的问题，我的意思是，对于一份全职工作来说，我的大部分工作都是内部的，显然我需要尊重我的团队。

Again, I go back to that funny thing with Spencer, he is like, "You're writing about Amplitude." I'm like, "No, dude, I'm not writing about Amplitude.

我再次回到斯宾塞的那件有趣的事情，他说，“你在写关于振幅的文章。”我想，“不，伙计，我不是在写关于振幅的文章。

It's like every company has that problem." But if I'm working alongside people, I obviously can't be like, "No," I can't say, "Oh, your manager sucks." It's like Craig's going to read that to do that particular thing, but I can, what I'm really excited about is that part of my job will be involving doing a lot of writing and a lot of teaching, is hopefully work it out with the company so that I can share things that are not too specific about the company, but much more.

好像每个公司都有这个问题。”但如果我和别人一起工作，我显然不能说，“不，”我不能说，“哦，你的经理很糟糕。”就像克雷格会读这篇文章来做那件特定的事情，但我可以，我真正兴奋的是，我工作的一部分将涉及做大量的写作和大量的教学，希望与公司一起解决这个问题，这样我就可以分享一些关于公司不太具体的事情，但更多。

They've got five different businesses at Toast, they've got all these people, so it's going to be a education every day.

Toast 有五个不同的业务，他们有这么多人，所以每天都会受到教育。

So I'm hoping to maybe get that inspiring my work in different ways.

所以我希望能以不同的方式激发我的工作灵感。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I imagine you might rename your newsletter The Beautiful Mess, slightly less messy.

我想你可能会将你的时事通讯重新命名为“美丽的混乱”，稍微不那么混乱。

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

Jam and Toast.

果酱和吐司。

The Jam and Toast decision.

果酱和吐司的决定。

The addition.

补充。

Lenny: Also, as you were talking, I imagined a chat GBT three type chat bot powered by John Cutler content could be something to try.

Lenny：另外，正如您所说，我想尝试一下由 John Cutler 内容支持的 GBT 三型聊天机器人。

John Cutler: Oh, it could be a funny, yeah, I mean I'm sort of obsessed.

约翰·卡特勒：哦，这可能很有趣，是的，我的意思是我有点着迷。

I like the ChatGPT thing because I like having things, having a developer inspired by Hemmingway debate, a developer inspired by Tolstoy discussing how to resolve a GIT issue.

我喜欢 ChatGPT 的东西，因为我喜欢拥有一些东西，有一个受海明威辩论启发的开发人员，一个受托尔斯泰启发的开发人员讨论如何解决 GIT 问题。

So that's what I've been obsessed by lately is when you know how ChatGPT works, you can actually make it do really funny things.

所以这就是我最近一直着迷的事情，当你知道 ChatGPT 的工作原理时，你实际上可以让它做一些非常有趣的事情。

And back to the worldview things, it's actually really effective.

回到世界观的事情上来，它实际上非常有效。

This is a very actionable tip, if you feel you're heavily grounded in let's say the, I don't know, maybe you're like a hardcore objectivist or you believe in individualism, you can just type into ChatGPT and say, "Take this situation and interpret it by five different worldviews." And it'll be like, you'll get the humanist view and you'll get the communitarian view and you'll get the collectivist view.

这是一个非常可行的技巧，如果你觉得自己深深扎根于，我不知道，也许你像一个铁杆客观主义者，或者你相信个人主义，你可以在 ChatGPT 中输入并说，“采取这种情况，并用五种不同的世界观来解释它。”就像，你会得到人文主义观点，你会得到社群主义观点，你会得到集体主义观点。

You'll do that.

你会这么做的。

So anyway, it's a fun tool for that.

所以无论如何，它是一个有趣的工具。

It's really cool.

真的很酷。

Lenny: It is awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We checked the checkbox talking about AI, very, very hot these days.

我们选中了谈论人工智能的复选框，这些天非常非常热门。

Lenny: Score.

莱尼：得分。

One final question before we get to our exciting lightning round, I'm going to come back to the questions that folks asked you on Twitter.

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后一个问题，我将回到人们在 Twitter 上问你的问题。

And there's a question that I saved up and the question, it was by Jeff Fedor and his question to you, he was, "What have you always wanted to say but couldn't now that you're between gigs?"

我存了一个问题，这个问题是杰夫·费多尔问你的，他问你，“你一直想说但现在不能说的话是什么？”

John Cutler: Oh, that's good.

约翰·卡特勒：哦，那很好。

So one thing is I didn't really need to filter myself very much when I was at Amplitude, which is kind of the beauty of the gig.

所以有一件事是，当我在 Amplitude 时，我真的不需要太多地过滤自己，这就是演出的美妙之处。

I wrote this blog post, probably six years ago called How to Know You're Working in a Feature Factory.

我写了这篇博文，大概是在六年前，名为“如何知道你在功能工厂工作”。

And I've always, this has all been my jam.

我一直以来，这都是我的果酱。

The outcome, outcome and impact focus thing.

结果、结果和影响是重点。

So it's not like I've really had to hide anything.

所以我并不是真的必须隐藏任何事情。

And so one thing I could say is the power of qualitative data, but even Spencer says that too.

所以我可以说的一件事是定性数据的力量，但即使斯宾塞也这么说。

He's talking about early on in Amplitude you can rely a lot on qualitative data.

他在 Amplitude 早期谈到，你可以非常依赖定性数据。

So that wouldn't be all that controversial.

所以这不会有那么大的争议。

That's a funny thing.

这是一件有趣的事情。

There's not that much, I pretty much say what I say partially under the guise that I'm talking to so many teams.

没有那么多，我几乎是在与这么多团队交谈的幌子下说出我所说的部分内容。

So therefore it's never about Amplitude.

因此，这与振幅无关。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

John Cutler: I think the one thing that I would change, I don't think that many people in the company would disagree with me, but one anti pattern I see a lot on the part of implementing analytics is that people go in and undertake this huge implementation.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：我认为我要改变的一件事是，我不认为公司里的很多人会不同意我的观点，但我在实施分析方面经常看到的一个反模式是人们参与并承担这一巨大的实施。

They want to implement all their events, they want to get, they want to treat it like this big project.

他们想要实施他们所有的活动，他们想要得到，他们想要把它当作一个大项目来对待。

And again, I don't think it's too controversial internally, but I think I might have been much more adamant to people that's just like use our free plan and get 20 events going and you might wipe them out later, but you don't even know what you don't know yet.

再说一次，我不认为这在内部有太多争议，但我想我可能对那些使用我们的免费计划并进行 20 个活动的人更加坚定，你可能会在以后消灭它们，但你甚至不知道你还不知道什么。

You would see these companies that are really qualified companies and it would be a couple months of back and forth of them trying to document every question they have and every metric they need and everything that you had.

你会看到这些公司是真正合格的公司，他们会花几个月的时间来尝试记录他们遇到的每个问题、他们需要的每个指标以及你拥有的一切。

John Cutler: And I would watch them and I understood why they were doing that, but I really just wanted to shake them, which again, I wouldn't have done this because then I would've been talking about the companies I was talking about every day.

约翰·卡特勒：我会观察他们，我理解他们为什么这样做，但我真的只是想动摇他们，而我又不会这样做，因为那样我就会一直在谈论我每天都在谈论的公司。

I just wanted to shake them and just, "Sit me down with the developers at your company for three hours and let's like Hello world, a couple events here, this is, you could be getting value this whole time." And again, I don't think that people at Amplitude would disagree, but I think that that's, I wasn't going to talk about that all day because that would be sort of belittling customers who do want this big implementation thing.

我只是想摇动他们，然后说：“让我和你们公司的开发人员一起坐下来三个小时，让我们像 Hello world 一样，这里有一些活动，这就是，你可以在整个过程中获得价值。”再说一次，我不认为 Amplitude 的人会不同意，但我认为，我不会整天谈论这个，因为这会有点贬低那些确实想要这个大实施的客户。

So pretty kind of inside baseball for analytics, but that's one thing that I was thinking about for Jeff.

棒球内部的分析非常漂亮，但这是我为杰夫考虑的一件事。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Great answer.

很好的答案。

Also actionable advice.

还有可操作的建议。

How about that?

怎么样？

John Cutler: Yeah, can do.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，可以。

You just need to find it.

你只需要找到它。

You just send me a message and say, "Do you have the actionable advice for it?" I probably do somewhere.

您只需给我发一条消息并说：“您对此有可行的建议吗？”我可能在某个地方做。

I just maybe didn't have the time to organize it.

我只是可能没有时间组织它。

Lenny: Good tip.

莱尼：好提示。

You're going to get a lot of DMs.

您将会收到很多 DM。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

I'm just going to go through and whatever comes to mind fire away.

我只是要经历一下，无论想到什么，都会消失。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

John Cutler: Yeah, this one's pretty easy because they are fairly similar lately.

约翰·卡特勒：是的，这个很简单，因为它们最近非常相似。

So I really like the book How to Measure Anything, finding Intangibles or Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business.

所以我真的很喜欢《如何衡量任何事物》、《寻找无形资产》或《寻找商业中无形资产的价值》这本书。

So that's by Douglas Hubbard.

这是道格拉斯·哈伯德的作品。

And the reason why I like that is again, at Amplitude the number of people who would come in like, "What are all our competitors measuring?

我喜欢这一点的原因又是，在 Amplitude 中，有多少人会问，“我们所有的竞争对手都在衡量什么？

We want to know exactly which metric to measure." And again, I'm laughing with you because I know you have these posts.

我们想确切地知道要衡量哪个指标。”再说一遍，我和你一起笑，因为我知道你有这些帖子。

Here's exactly the metrics that you should track.

这正是您应该跟踪的指标。

I really respect those posts and that's the power that you have.

我真的很尊重这些帖子，这就是你所拥有的力量。

That's all really good.

这一切真的很好。

But what Hubbard reminds you is why the hell are you measuring things to begin with?

但哈伯德提醒你的是，你到底为什么要测量事物？

It's to reduce uncertainty for critical decisions or to achieve certain objectives that you have.

这是为了减少关键决策的不确定性或实现您的某些目标。

The reason why it's important to read that book is A, you figure out someone who's again, actionable, has thought this through.

阅读这本书之所以重要的原因是 A，你会发现有人再次思考了这个问题，并且可以采取行动。

So he gives you kind of a framework to thinking about it.

所以他给了你一个思考这个问题的框架。

John Cutler: But B, he really challenges this idea of when making decisions in conditions of uncertainty, you only need to reduce the uncertainty to an acceptable amount to be able to make the next decision that you need to make.

约翰·卡特勒：但是B，他确实挑战了这样的想法：在不确定的情况下做出决策时，你只需要将不确定性降低到可接受的程度，就可以做出下一个需要做出的决定。

And we never have, people are like, "Product is science." It's really an art, like a game that's being played out.

我们从来没有，人们会说，“产品就是科学。”这确实是一门艺术，就像一场正在玩的游戏。

You never have complete information to do it.

你永远没有完整的信息来做到这一点。

So I think that's a good book to remind people about what...

所以我认为这是一本好书，可以提醒人们……

To be more creative and thinking about measurement instead of thinking about measurement and metrics is just about adopting the exact metrics that everyone has and doing that.

更具创造性并思考衡量而不是考虑衡量和指标只是采用每个人都有的确切指标并这样做。

John Cutler: The second one I think would probably be Accelerate.

约翰·卡特勒：我认为第二个可能是加速。

So Nicole Forsgren, Gene Kim, Jez Humble, that's just one of the best books in the world about the factors contributing to performance.

Nicole Forsgren、Gene Kim、Jez Humble，这是世界上关于影响绩效的因素的最好的书之一。

And it's built on many...

它建立在许多...

It's six, I don't know, it's been out for a while now, 10 years?

已经六了，我不知道，已经出来有一段时间了，十年了？

They did the Dora report, which was their yearly report where they did big surveys, like 10, 20, 30, 40,000 people responding to it.

他们做了《朵拉报告》，这是他们的年度报告，他们进行了大规模调查，有 10、20、30、40,000 人对此做出回应。

And Nicole Forsgren is an amazing scientist.

妮可·福斯格伦是一位了不起的科学家。

So they structure their thing correctly.

所以他们正确地构建了他们的东西。

They would have a hypothesis about what is equal to performance and how all these individual practices contribute to it.

他们会对什么等于绩效以及所有这些个人实践如何对其做出贡献有一个假设。

John Cutler: And then they've updated it over time.

约翰·卡特勒：然后他们随着时间的推移对其进行了更新。

And I think that Google bought Dora, I don't know exactly how all the parts came into place, but that book is amazing, just sort of teaching you how to think about the idea of performance because they'll include things like the Western topology, which is your company operating a bureaucracy or...

我认为谷歌收购了朵拉，我不知道所有的部分到底是如何到位的，但这本书很棒，只是教你如何思考性能的概念，因为它们将包括西方拓扑之类的东西，即你的公司运营一个官僚机构或......

These certain culture elements to it, but then also the practices and things that you're doing.

这些特定的文化元素，还有你正在做的实践和事情。

So that's a great book when you're trying to think about, "How do I model performance?" And then it's also an amazing book because you can just literally put the stuff into motion about improving your development practices and things you're doing.

因此，当您尝试思考“如何对性能进行建模？”时，这是一本很棒的书。这也是一本很棒的书，因为你可以直接将这些内容付诸实践，以改进你的开发实践和你正在做的事情。

John Cutler: And then I think probably the last one, man, I just love this book, this Jeff Patton book about user story mapping.

约翰·卡特勒（John Cutler）：然后我想可能是最后一本，伙计，我非常喜欢这本书，杰夫·巴顿（Jeff Patton）这本关于用户故事映射的书。

I love what Jeff Patton did.

我喜欢杰夫·巴顿所做的事情。

He took this extremely simple idea, which is that you can lay out a customer journey and then organize, take a slice across that journey and develop it.

他采用了这个极其简单的想法，即您可以规划客户旅程，然后组织、截取该旅程并开发它。

And he gives this pretty basic straightforward method to do it.

他给出了这个非常基本、简单的方法来做到这一点。

But I tell you, I'll go into companies like a year after they had Jeff in and learned this and they're still like buzzing about, "Hey, user story map." And it's just, he's a super humble guy and he would never outstate the value of this.

但我告诉你，在杰夫加入并了解这一点一年后，我就会进入公司，他们仍然热衷于“嘿，用户故事地图”。只是，他是一个超级谦虚的人，他永远不会夸大这一点的价值。

He'd be like, "Yeah, it's just a journey map with a couple sticky notes on it." But I always, when someone's new at product management, I'm like, "Hey, this is a deceptively simple book.

他会说，“是的，这只是一张旅程地图，上面有几张便利贴。”但当有人刚接触产品管理时，我总是会说，“嘿，这是一本看似简单的书。

You'll learn this very basic idea, but it'll teach you a lot about product when I do that." So those are three that come to mind.

你会学到这个非常基本的想法，但当我这样做时，它会教会你很多关于产品的知识。”我想到的就是这三个。

Lenny: Killer suggestions, I love answers of books I've never heard of that seem really amazing.

莱尼：杀手级的建议，我喜欢那些我从未听说过的书的答案，这看起来真的很神奇。

So you check the checkbox there.

所以你选中那里的复选框。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Favorite other podcast other than the one you're currently on?

除了您当前正在收听的播客之外，您还喜欢其他播客吗？

John Cutler: I'm in a...

约翰·卡特勒：我处于……

I got a four-year-old.

我有一个四岁的孩子。

I don't really spend a lot of time...

我其实并没有花很多时间...

I'm the sort of, I'm such a lightweight, it's like I'll do knowledge project because Shane sent me, you know what I mean?

我是那种，我是一个轻量级的人，就像我会做知识项目，因为谢恩派我来，你知道我的意思吗？

I'll just listen to some, I'll binge things, but I do really like, I've actually been going through old episodes of Maggie Crowley's podcast that she did when she was at Drift.

我只会听一些，我会狂吃一些东西，但我真的很喜欢，我实际上一直在浏览玛吉·克劳利（Maggie Crowley）在 Drift 时做的播客的旧剧集。

Lots of good guests and I really like Maggie's perspective and I like the guests that she had on there.

有很多优秀的客人，我真的很喜欢玛吉的观点，我喜欢她在那里的客人。

So sometimes I'll go back to an old podcast.

所以有时我会回到旧的播客。

He does these really great memes and stuff, but Jason Knight actually has a fun podcast that I listen to and some of those things.

他做了这些非常棒的模因和东西，但杰森·奈特实际上有一个有趣的播客，我听过其中的一些东西。

So I think that, but realistically I'm not a huge podcast listener.

所以我是这么认为的，但实际上我并不是一个庞大的播客听众。

I'd like to go back to a podcast that hasn't been out for a while, like Maggie's and just sort of catch up on all the guests because I thought that was really good.

我想回到一个已经有一段时间没有推出的播客，比如玛吉的播客，并且可以跟上所有嘉宾的情况，因为我认为这真的很棒。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Jason, we love hearing that.

杰森，我们喜欢听这个。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

John Cutler: Oh man, again, I have a kid.

约翰·卡特勒：哦，老兄，再说一次，我有一个孩子。

It's nothing.

没什么。

There's this thing called, there's a show called Sunny Bunnies.

有一个节目叫“阳光兔子”。

It's these fluffy bunnies.

就是这些毛茸茸的小兔子。

That's really good.

那真是太好了。

And then there's this animated series called Booba and he's this funny guy.

还有一部名为布巴（Booba）的动画系列，他是一个有趣的人。

I like Booba .

我喜欢布巴。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

I'm sure these will be useful to families.

我相信这些对家庭会有用。

John Cutler: Hardcore product, movies.

John Cutler：硬核产品，电影。

Really, those are going to up your game a lot.

确实，这些会大大提高你的游戏水平。

Lenny: Yeah, I'm sure there's something to learn.

莱尼：是的，我确信有一些东西要学。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask folks?

您最喜欢问别人的面试问题是？

John Cutler: Oh, so one that I like to do is, I do the behavioral questions like, "Tell me about stuff," but then I'll ask them like, "Imagine I'm interviewing a person you worked with.

约翰·卡特勒：哦，我喜欢做的一个是，我会问一些行为问题，比如“告诉我一些事情”，然后我会问他们，“想象一下我正在采访一个与你共事的人。

Now answer in there, tell me about of the same situation." So you'll be like, "Oh, Lenny, tell me about a time that you were faced with adversity and you did this and then you worked with the team to do it.

现在在那里回答，告诉我同样的情况。”所以你会说，“哦，莱尼，告诉我一次你面临逆境的经历，你做了这件事，然后你和团队一起努力做到了这一点。

And you would go through it and then you'd answer it.

你会经历它然后你会回答它。

John Cutler: And then maybe in the process of doing that, you mentioned someone you work with and I'll be like, "Now imagine that you're Mary, who you just spoke about, and things, and how would she answer the tell me about thing as it relates to you?" And so I think it can show some really interesting self awareness.

约翰·卡特勒：然后也许在这样做的过程中，你提到了与你一起工作的人，我会说，“现在想象一下，你是玛丽，你刚才谈到了她，以及一些事情，她会如何回答告诉我与你有关的事情？”所以我认为它可以表现出一些非常有趣的自我意识。

Often people answer that question like they are the hero of the story and the other people are the accomplices in it, but then if you challenge them, "What was that story from the perspective of one of the people you worked with?" I think it's really interesting.

人们通常会回答这个问题，好像他们是故事的英雄，其他人是故事的同谋，但如果你挑战他们，“从与你一起工作的人的角度来看，这个故事是什么？”我觉得这真的很有趣。

John Cutler: So it is a behavioral question.

约翰·卡特勒：所以这是一个行为问题。

I do think that's the right way and if you dig enough you can really get the depth of the story, but I do think it's fun to challenge people to see how flexible their thinking could be about that situation.

我确实认为这是正确的方法，如果你挖掘得足够多，你就能真正了解故事的深度，但我确实认为挑战人们看看他们对这种情况的思考有多灵活是很有趣的。

I don't know if that's right from an HR perspective, but I like it.

我不知道从人力资源的角度来看这是否正确，但我喜欢它。

Lenny: I like it too.

莱尼：我也喜欢。

Final question, you mentioned you have kids.

最后一个问题，你提到你有孩子。

What's the best lesson someone taught you about raising kids?

关于抚养孩子，有人教给你的最好的一课是什么？

John Cutler: It's a challenge every day.

约翰·卡特勒：每天都是一个挑战。

I just think they operate better when they are fed.

我只是觉得它们吃饱后运作得更好。

The kid as a product is like if you feed the product, then they were just, everything's better.

孩子作为一种产品就像如果你喂养产品，那么他们就会，一切都会更好。

And when you don't, like everything falls apart.

当你不这样做时，就像一切都崩溃了。

So just have snacks with you.

所以就带点零食吧。

That's basically the advice that I have for people.

这基本上就是我给人们的建议。

Lenny: Very practical.

莱尼：非常实用。

Look at you, actionable advice left and right.

看看你，左右都是可行的建议。

Lenny: John, and I feel comfortable calling you John now, I feel like I just got to know you.

莱尼：约翰，我现在很舒服地称呼你为约翰，我觉得我刚刚认识你。

You're just like, "I'm John now." We hit our goal of, I think it's going to be the longest episode I've done.

你就像，“我现在是约翰了。”我们达到了目标，我认为这将是我做过的最长的一集。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

John, we've reached the end.

约翰，我们已经到达终点了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out, ask questions if you want them to?

如果人们想了解更多信息、联系您、提出问题（如果您愿意的话），他们可以在哪里找到您？

And then two, how can listeners be useful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有用？

John Cutler: I still am using Twitter a fair amount I think, but LinkedIn could be good.

John Cutler：我认为我仍然经常使用 Twitter，但 LinkedIn 可能也不错。

John Cuttlefish on Twitter and then just John Cutler at LinkedIn.

Twitter 上的 John Cuttlefish，LinkedIn 上的 John Cutler。

Yeah, I think what I would love to hear from people is just send recommendations of people we should hear more from.

是的，我想我希望听到人们的意见，只是向我们应该听取更多建议的人发送建议。

I think that would be really helpful.

我认为这真的很有帮助。

Even in the role that I have, I want to start like a guest speaker series to bring people in to talk to our team.

即使在我所担任的角色中，我也想以客座演讲系列的方式开始，让人们与我们的团队交谈。

And so I think that that would be something that I can work on.

所以我认为这将是我可以努力的事情。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

John, thank you so much for doing this.

约翰，非常感谢你这么做。

I'm really excited for this new adventure that you're on, and I'm excited to maybe follow up maybe in a couple years of just what you've learned from this next phase of life.

我对你正在进行的这次新冒险感到非常兴奋，并且我很高兴可能会在几年后跟进你从人生的下一阶段中学到的东西。

John Cutler: I really enjoyed the show and thank you for having me.

约翰·卡特勒：我真的很喜欢这个节目，感谢你们邀请我。

Awesome.

太棒了。

Thanks, John.: Thank you so much for listening.

谢谢，约翰：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com.

您可以在 lenny'spodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。