How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (Art of Accomplishment)

Joe Hudson: A lot of the people in my circles may have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to try to arrange a life that they enjoy, and it doesn't fucking work.

乔·哈德森：我圈子里的很多人可能花了数亿美元试图安排他们喜欢的生活，但这根本行不通。

Joe Hudson: It's the fact that they have emotions that they are not sitting, feeling, or expressing.

乔·哈德森：事实上，他们有一些情绪，但他们没有坐着、感受或表达。

Whatever emotion that you're trying to avoid, you are inviting into your life in exactly the way that you're trying to avoid it.

无论你试图避免什么情绪，你都会以你试图避免的方式邀请它进入你的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: What the hell?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：到底是什么？

Why would...

为什么会...

Why does this...

为什么这...

You have this really amazing insight.

你有这个非常惊人的洞察力。

The voice in your head is often telling you bullshit.

你脑子里的声音经常告诉你废话。

Joe Hudson: What most people try to do is they try to stop it, and that doesn't work very well.

乔·哈德森：大多数人试图做的就是试图阻止它，但这效果不太好。

I think the best way to work with the voice in the head is to pick an experiment every day and respond to the voice in the head in a new way every day.

我认为处理头脑中的声音的最佳方法是每天选择一个实验，并每天以新的方式回应头脑中的声音。

One of my favorite responses is, "Oh, I see that you're really scared.

我最喜欢的回答之一是：“哦，我看到你真的很害怕。

Don't worry.

别担心。

I'm right here with you.

我就在你身边。

I got you."

我抓到你了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You're really big on helping people feel joy.

Lenny Rachitsky：你非常热衷于帮助人们感受到快乐。

Joe Hudson: It's such an important tool for productivity.

Joe Hudson：这是提高生产力的重要工具。

If you say, I'm going to figure out how to enjoy what I do 10% more and you succeed, you are 10% more efficient.

如果你说，我要弄清楚如何多享受我所做的 10%，而你成功了，那么你的效率就提高了 10%。

Not only that, usually, the quality is going to get a lot better too.

不仅如此，通常质量也会变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there just one thing you recommend that basically everyone try to experiment with?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否只推荐一件事，基本上每个人都尝试尝试？

Joe Hudson: Yeah, it'll change your life dramatically really quickly.

乔·哈德森：是的，它会很快地极大地改变你的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Joe Hudson.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是乔·哈德森。

Joe is one of the most sought-after executive coaches amongst tech leaders and has worked with folks from OpenAI, SpaceX, Apple, and other world-class companies.

Joe 是技术领导者中最受欢迎的高管教练之一，曾与来自 OpenAI、SpaceX、Apple 和其他世界级公司的人员合作。

Joe's unique approach to coaching draws from his spiritual, psychological, and neurological practices.

乔独特的教练方法源自他的精神、心理和神经学实践。

In his intimate courses that he runs a few times a year, and in his podcast, he helps people create the life that they want with enjoyment and ease.

在他每年举办几次的私密课程中，以及在他的播客中，他帮助人们轻松愉快地创造他们想要的生活。

In our conversation, Joe shares the two things that he finds most often keep people stuck in their life and in their job, and how to work on getting these things unstuck.

在我们的谈话中，乔分享了他发现最常让人们陷入生活和工作困境的两件事，以及如何努力摆脱这些困境。

Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, contradictory, and telling you bullshit, and how to build a different relationship with that voice.

为什么你头脑中批评的声音总是错误的、矛盾的、告诉你废话，以及如何与那个声音建立不同的关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: Why falling in love with your emotions is so important and so powerful.

Lenny Rachitsky：为什么爱上你的情感如此重要且如此强大。

Why you'd be better off focusing on what you want versus what you think you should do or think that you need to do, plus a bunch of amazing advice on how to make better decisions, help your team run more effectively, and why a seven-minute daily gratitude practice will change your life.

为什么你最好专注于你想要的事情，而不是你认为你应该做或认为你需要做的事情，再加上一堆关于如何做出更好的决策、帮助你​​的团队更有效地运作的惊人建议，以及为什么每天七分钟的感恩练习会改变你的生活。

This episode is basically for every single person.

这一集基本上是针对每个人的。

It will make your life and your work better.

它将使您的生活和工作变得更好。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Joe Hudson.

接下来，我为您带来乔·哈德森。

Joe, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

乔，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's good to have you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：很高兴有你。

I'm curious if there's any common themes that emerge often in terms of what is holding people back from success or just living the life that they want, especially ambitious tech people, which I know is a lot of the folks that you work with.

我很好奇是否有任何共同的主题经常出现在阻碍人们成功或过上他们想要的生活的因素方面，尤其是那些雄心勃勃的技术人员，我知道他们中很多都是与你一起工作的人。

Are there archetypes of like, here's the thing, often come up most often and hold people back?

是否存在诸如“这就是事情”这样的原型，经常出现并阻碍人们？

Joe Hudson: A nonspecific answer to that would be a critical voice in their head and a relationship with that critical voice that is not productive.

乔·哈德森（Joe Hudson）：对此的一个非具体答案是他们头脑中存在批评声音，并且与该批评声音的关系没有成效。

Oftentimes, the critical voice in the head says, "You need me to be productive," but it's usually a huge detriment to being able to really be successful.

通常，头脑中的批评声音会说：“你需要我来提高工作效率”，但这通常会对真正取得成功造成巨大损害。

Even if you are successful with a really critical voice in your head, you never get to enjoy it.

即使你在头脑中有真正批评的声音的情况下取得了成功，你也永远无法享受它。

You might have the money, but then you're like, "Oh, shit, I'm still miserable." Or, "I got the car, I got the house, I got the money, I got the successful career, and why am I unhappy all the time?" That would be, I would say one of the biggest ones.

你可能有钱，但你会想，“哦，糟糕，我还是很痛苦。”或者，“我有车、有房子、有钱、有成功的事业，但为什么我总是不快乐？”我想说，这将是最大的之一。

Another really big one that in a large category I would say is their relationship with emotions is all fakata.

另一个非常重要的问题，在一个大的类别中，我想说的是他们与情感的关系都是fakata。

They are either trying to pretend they don't have them or compartmentalizing them or trying to manage them rather than harnessing them and falling in love with them.

他们要么试图假装自己没有它们，要么将它们分开，或者试图管理它们，而不是利用它们并爱上它们。

That would be a big place.

那将是一个很大的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by BuildBetter.ai.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 BuildBetter.ai 为您带来。

Back in 2020 when AI was just a toy, BuildBetter bet that it could cut down on a product team's operational BS.

早在 2020 年，当人工智能还只是一个玩具时，BuildBetter 就认为它可以减少产品团队的运营废话。

Fast forward to today, 23,000 product teams use purpose-built AI in BuildBetter every day.

快进到今天，每天都有 23,000 个产品团队在 BuildBetter 中使用专门构建的 AI。

First, BuildBetter uses custom models to turn unstructured data, like product and sales calls, support tickets, internal communications, and surveys into structured insights.

首先，BuildBetter 使用自定义模型将非结构化数据（例如产品和销售电话、支持票证、内部通信和调查）转化为结构化见解。

It's like having a dedicated data science team.

这就像拥有一个专门的数据科学团队。

Second, BuildBetter runs those structured insights into workflows, like weekly reports about customer issues, context-aware PRDs and user research documents with citations.

其次，BuildBetter 将这些结构化洞察运行到工作流程中，例如有关客户问题的每周报告、上下文感知 PRD 以及带引用的用户研究文档。

It even turns standups into action items that automatically get assigned and shared into your tools.

它甚至可以将站立会议变成行动项目，并自动分配并共享到您的工具中。

Plus, with unlimited seat pricing on all plans, BuildBetter ensures everyone at your company has access to this knowledge.

此外，BuildBetter 对所有计划均提供无限席位定价，确保您公司的每个人都能获得这些知识。

Truly, no data silos.

确实，没有数据孤岛。

In a world of AI demos over-promising and under-delivering, see why BuildBetter has a 93% subscription retention, yet a personalized demo and use code LENNY for $100 credit if you sign up now at buildBetter.ai/lenny.

在人工智能演示过度承诺和交付不足的世界中，了解为什么 BuildBetter 拥有 93% 的订阅保留率，但如果您现在在 buildBetter.ai/lenny 注册，则可以使用代码 LENNY 获得 100 美元的信用额。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能认识的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

Lenny Rachitsky: This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

Lenny Rachitsky：这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录 SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

These are awesome.

这些太棒了。

Okay, so the voice in your head, you have this really amazing insight that I heard on one of your podcast episodes that the voice in your head is often wrong, often contradictory, often telling you, and that your advice is to learn how to work very differently with this voice in your head, which a lot of people just assume, oh, that's just like what it is.

好吧，你头脑中的声音，你有一个非常惊人的洞察力，我在你的播客节目中听到，你头脑中的声音经常是错误的，经常矛盾，经常告诉你，你的建议是学习如何以非常不同的方式与你头脑中的这个声音一起工作，很多人只是假设，哦，那就是它本来的样子。

It's telling me how it's trying to help me, but it turns out it's not.

它告诉我它是如何试图帮助我的，但事实证明并非如此。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Joe Hudson: I would say every single time the voice in your head is wrong.

乔·哈德森：我会说，每次你脑子里的声音都是错误的。

That critical voice in your head.

你脑海中那个批评的声音。

To be specific, I'm talking about the voice in your head that is critical and repeats.

具体来说，我说的是你脑海中不断重复的批评声音。

There's the voice that says the same thing over and over again.

有一个声音一遍又一遍地说着同样的话。

You got to work out more, you got to work out more, you got to work out more.

你必须多锻炼，你必须多锻炼，你必须多锻炼。

Whatever that is, it's always wrong, and that doesn't mean there isn't truth to what it says, but it's incorrect.

不管那是什么，它总是错误的，这并不意味着它所说的不真实，但它是不正确的。

As an example of this, you should work out more, you should work out more, you should work out more, or you need me or you just sit around on the couch as a great example of one.

举个例子，你应该多锻炼，你应该多锻炼，你应该多锻炼，或者你需要我，或者你只是坐在沙发上就是一个很好的例子。

If I was your boss and I was sitting right next to you and I was criticizing you every couple of minutes, there's no way that you would say, "Wow, I really need you.

如果我是你的老板，我就坐在你旁边，每隔几分钟就批评你一次，你就不可能说：“哇，我真的需要你。

I couldn't be productive without you." It's a bunch of crap.

没有你我就无法高效工作。”这是一堆废话。

Or you should work out, you should work out.

或者你应该锻炼，你应该锻炼。

Joe Hudson: I see the truth that I'd be healthier if I work out.

乔·哈德森：我明白了一个事实：如果我锻炼的话，我会更健康。

I get that.

我明白了。

Should I?

我应该吗？

Is it really a should?

这真的是应该的吗？

There's another question.

还有一个问题。

What makes it not say, "Oh, hey, why don't you enjoy working out?

是什么让它不说：“哦，嘿，你为什么不喜欢锻炼呢？

How do we get you to enjoy working out?

我们如何让您享受锻炼的乐趣？

What would motivate you to work?" It's not doing any of that.

什么会激励你工作？”它没有做任何事情。

It's, "You should work out, you should work out." It's never an accurate thing that's happening inside of your head.

就是“你应该锻炼，你应该锻炼”。你脑子里发生的事情从来都不是准确的。

Until you can see through that, it's hard to work with the voice in your head.

除非你能看清这一点，否则很难与头脑中的声音一起工作。

You can do it, but until you see through it.

你可以做到，但直到你看透它。

The second part that I would say is that if you want to work with the voice in your head a new way, what most people try to do is they try to stop it.

我要说的第二部分是，如果你想以新的方式处理头脑中的声音，大多数人会试图阻止它。

They try to control the voice in the head, and that doesn't work very well.

他们试图控制头脑中的声音，但效果并不好。

Instead, I say, change the way that you relate to the negative voice in your head.

相反，我说，改变你与头脑中消极声音的联系方式。

Joe Hudson: Instead of being, "Okay, stop doing that, stop doing that." Say, "Oh, I see that you're really scared and I'm right here with you." Or sing a musical to it or just go, "Eh, I don't believe you." As a matter of fact, I think the best way to work with the voice in the head is to pick an experiment every day and respond to the voice in the head in a new way every day to have an experimental approach and say, "Oh, what's the relationship I want with this negative voice in my head?" Because right now, what it's typically doing for most people is that it says something and the person's like, "Yeah." Or, "Yeah, but I'm not going to do that, so fuck off." Or, "Yeah, that'll never work." Something like that is the response.

乔·哈德森：而不是“好吧，停止这样做，停止这样做。”说：“哦，我看到你真的很害怕，我就在你身边。”或者唱一首音乐剧，或者只是说，“呃，我不相信你。”事实上，我认为处理头脑中的声音的最好方法是每天选择一个实验，每天以一种新的方式回应头脑中的声音，以一种实验的方式说，“哦，我想要与我头脑中的这个消极声音有什么关系？”因为现在，它对大多数人来说通常会做的是，它说了一些话，然后人们会说：“是的。”或者，“是的，但我不会那样做，所以滚吧。”或者，“是的，那永远行不通。”类似的就是回应。

What happens if you change the response to the voice in your head?

如果你改变对头脑中声音的反应会发生什么？

That gives you a crap ton of freedom, and it's the beginning of what can be a state where the negative voice in the head disappears, which is really, really quite lovely.

这给了你极大的自由，这是一种状态的开始，头脑中的消极声音消失了，这真的非常非常可爱。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。

I love this so much because there's so much that comes from this thing in your head just shooting you down or scaring you about stuff.

我非常喜欢这个，因为你脑子里的这个东西太多了，只是让你失望或者让你害怕。

It's so hard.

太难了。

I hear this, but it's so hard.

我听到了，但这太难了。

Next time I'm, I don't know, giving a big presentation, I'm going to hear like, "Oh, something could go wrong.

我不知道，下次我做大型演讲时，我会听到这样的声音：“哦，可能会出问题。

You could look really stupid or you could totally forget what you're saying." It's hard to really intellectualize, okay, I don't have to listen to this.

你可能看起来很蠢，或者你可能完全忘记自己在说什么。”很难真正理智化，好吧，我不必听这些。

Is there anything more there just how to turn that around and be like, just shut up?

还有什么办法可以扭转局面并闭嘴吗？

Joe Hudson: The shut up usually doesn't work.

乔·哈德森：闭嘴通常是行不通的。

Experiment with all of it.

尝试所有这些。

To me, one of my favorite responses is, "Oh, I see that you're really scared.

对我来说，我最喜欢的回答之一是：“哦，我看到你真的很害怕。

Don't worry.

别担心。

I'm right here with you.

我就在你身边。

I got you." Because part of the deal is that the voice in the head has assumed the position that it's like the boss, but it's really a little kid having a temper tantrum.

我抓到你了。”因为部分原因是头脑中的声音已经假定了它就像老板的位置，但它实际上是一个小孩子在发脾气。

If you listen to it, if you just dictated everything it said, it sounds like usually like a five-year-old having a temper tantrum, or it sounds like the way your mom used to chastise you or the way your dad used to chastise you or whatever, a teacher.

如果你听它，如果你只是口述它所说的一切，听起来就像一个五岁的孩子在发脾气，或者听起来像你妈妈过去责骂你的方式，或者你爸爸过去责骂你的方式，或者其他老师。

It isn't, it's not logical, it's not thoughtful, it's typically not thoughtful, it's usually abusive.

事实并非如此，这不合逻辑，没有深思熟虑，通常没有深思熟虑，通常是虐待行为。

It's a lot of fear.

这是很多恐惧。

It's one of my favorites, one of my favorite ways to respond.

这是我最喜欢的回应方式之一。

Joe Hudson: I've tried, I mean, gosh, dozens of ways, and there's a lot of neat effective ways.

Joe Hudson：我尝试过，我的意思是，天哪，有几十种方法，而且有很多简洁有效的方法。

I particularly think it's really good to set up a series of experiments rather than just take the one that I have because the experimental mindset means that you can never really fail.

我特别认为建立一系列实验而不是仅仅进行我所拥有的一个实验真的很好，因为实验心态意味着你永远不会真正失败。

Typically, somebody, like worse with the voice in the head, they fail and they go, "Ah, fuck it." Because we have this part of our brain called the habenula, and the habenula basically is the part of our brain that is trying to teach us not to fail over and over again.

通常情况下，有人，更糟糕的是，脑子里有声音，他们失败了，他们会说，“啊，去他妈的。”因为我们大脑的这一部分称为缰核，而缰核基本上是我们大脑中试图教导我们不要一次又一次失败的部分。

It's the thing that when you go on a diet or you go to work out and then you don't do it one day and you say, "Ah, fuck it, I messed up," and then you don't try anymore or you don't try for a couple of weeks or whatever, that's basically what's happening in that part of the brain.

当你节食或去锻炼时，有一天你没有这样做，你会说，“啊，操，我搞砸了，”然后你不再尝试，或者几周之内不再尝试，这基本上就是大脑那部分发生的事情。

Joe Hudson: If you do it as an experimental thing, then you can't lose, you're just learning about yourself.

Joe Hudson：如果你把它当作实验性的事情来做，那么你就不会失败，你只是在了解自己。

You're learning about the voice in your head.

你正在了解你头脑中的声音。

The way I like thinking about that is people are like, "I understand the problem, but I don't have a solution." I'm always like, "If you understood the problem, there would be no question about the solution." If you fully understand the problem, you know the solution.

我喜欢思考这个问题的方式是人们会说，“我理解这个问题，但我没有解决方案。”我总是说，“如果你理解了问题，那么解决方案就没有问题了。”如果你完全理解问题，你就知道解决方案。

All you have to do is really fully understand the voice in your head through a series of experiments and the whole thing goes away.

你所要做的就是通过一系列实验真正完全理解你头脑中的声音，然后整个事情就会消失。

Lenny Rachitsky: The advice here is next time you're hearing something in your head that you don't think is going to be helpful to you is try to respond to it in a different way from what you've been doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里的建议是，下次当你在脑海中听到一些你认为对你没有帮助的事情时，尝试以不同于你一直在做的方式来回应它。

Joe Hudson: I would be even more subtle than that, which is I really wouldn't care if you think it's helpful to you or not.

Joe Hudson：我会比这更微妙，我真的不在乎你是否认为这对你有帮助。

I would just experiment with different ways of interacting with it.

我只是尝试与它交互的不同方式。

I wouldn't even do it as a goal of, okay, I want the voice in the head to be nicer to me.

我什至不会将其作为目标，好吧，我希望头脑中的声音对我更好。

I would do it with the goal of just, hey, how do I learn?

我这样做的目标只是，嘿，我该如何学习？

How do I understand this thing?

我怎么理解这个东西呢？

It's a far more productive self-development.

这是一种更加富有成效的自我发展。

Generally, it's far more productive to learn, say about the river valley by walking through it, putting your feet in the river, going down the river with a canoe, smelling the soil, looking at the plants, than it is to say, "Okay, I am going to dam this river valley and try to..." You're not going to understand it the same way.

一般来说，通过步行穿过河谷、把脚放在河里、划着独木舟顺流而下、闻泥土的味道、观察植物来了解河谷，比说“好吧，我要在这个河谷筑坝并尝试……”要有效得多，你不会以同样的方式理解它。

You're going to make some mistakes.

你会犯一些错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

The second bucket that you shared of what you find most often is the root of what's holding people back is the way you described is your relationship with your emotions, which I don't think a lot of people would think of as the thing that's holding them back.

你最常分享的第二个方面是阻碍人们前进的根源，你所描述的是你与情绪的关系，我认为很多人不会认为这是阻碍他们前进的因素。

Can you talk a bit more about what that looks like?

你能多谈谈它是什么样子的吗？

Joe Hudson: Yeah, a great way to explain it.

Joe Hudson：是的，这是一个很好的解释方式。

For the logical folks, so in 2012 or so, there was a person who wrote a book called Descartes' Error, and in Descartes' Error, the whole idea is that I think therefore I am, and this person's like, "Yeah, that's the error." It's a neuroscientist who looked at people who had damage in the emotional center of their brain, and they just basically ceased to be able to make decisions.

对于逻辑性强的人来说，在 2012 年左右，有一个人写了一本叫做《笛卡尔错误》的书，在《笛卡尔错误》中，整个想法是我思故我在，而这个人就像是，“是的，这就是错误。”一位神经科学家观察了大脑情感中心受损的人，他们基本上无法做出决定。

Their IQ would stay the same, but it would take them half an hour to decide where to have lunch or decide what color pen to use.

他们的智商将保持不变，但他们需要半个小时才能决定在哪里吃午饭或决定使用什么颜色的笔。

It would take hours and hours to make simple decisions, so their IQ would stay high, but their entire life would completely fall apart.

做出简单的决定需要花上几个小时，所以他们的智商会保持很高，但他们的整个生活会完全崩溃。

What it tells us, and this is not exact, I'm paraphrasing for a podcast, but we make decisions in the emotional center of our brain.

它告诉我们什么，这并不准确，我是在播客中解释的，但我们是在大脑的情感中心做出决定的。

We use logic to try to figure out how we're going to feel.

我们使用逻辑来尝试弄清楚我们的感受。

Joe Hudson: You can see this just by asking yourself the question, how many decisions have you made to feel like a success or to not feel like a failure or to feel happier, to not feel trapped?

乔·哈德森：你可以通过问自己这个问题来看到这一点，你做了多少决定让自己感觉成功，或者不觉得失败，或者感觉更快乐，不觉得被困？

There's these huge buckets of emotions that we are trying to feel and not feel, and we're making decisions based on those.

我们试图去感受和不去感受这些巨大的情绪，我们正在根据这些情绪做出决定。

There's no such thing as a logical decision.

不存在所谓合乎逻辑的决定。

That idea is like, I'm just going to be logical and just make a logical decision, it doesn't.

这个想法就像是，我只是要符合逻辑并做出合乎逻辑的决定，但事实并非如此。

Neurologically, it's just untrue.

从神经学角度来说，这是不正确的。

If you learn to fall in love with all of your emotions, then solution sets become available that you didn't have before.

如果你学会爱上你所有的情绪，那么你以前没有的解决方案就会变得可用。

If you are like, "Oh, I can't feel like a failure." Well, then you're probably not going to take certain risks.

如果你说，“哦，我不能觉得自己是个失败者。”好吧，那么你可能不会冒某些风险。

If you are, "Oh, I want to feel loved and I can't feel unliked by people." Well, then you're not going to say your truth, and then the world is going to not give you the things that are truthful to you.

如果你是，“哦，我想要被爱的感觉，我不能觉得别人不喜欢我。”好吧，那么你就不会说出你的真相，那么世界就不会给你对你来说真实的东西。

Joe Hudson: I go into my boss, I say my truth, I get fired.

乔·哈德森：我去找我的老板，说出我的真相，然后我就被解雇了。

Okay, I get fired, but then probably my next boss, I say my truth, I'm going to find a location where my truth is and how I want to be in the world is going to be acceptable.

好吧，我被解雇了，但也许我的下一个老板，我会说出我的真相，我会找到一个地方，在那里我的真相所在，并且我想在这个世界上的生活方式将是可以接受的。

If I don't do that, if I'm constantly managing myself, then I'm not going to have that reality.

如果我不这样做，如果我不断地管理自己，那么我就不会拥有这样的现实。

It's really important, just for the decision-making part, how important emotions are to be able to fall in love with each of the emotional experiences so you're not making decisions based on your inability to feel stuff.

对于决策部分来说，情绪非常重要，能够爱上每一种情绪体验，这样你就不会因为无法感受到事物而做出决定。

That's like one, there's literally a thousand others.

就这样一个，实际上还有一千个。

Most people, they feel stuck.

大多数人，他们感到被困住了。

They can have a big emotional release and they don't feel stuck anymore.

他们可以得到很大的情感释放，并且不再感到陷入困境。

When people feel overwhelmed, it's usually not the amount of crap that they have going on in their life.

当人们感到不知所措时，通常不是因为他们生活中发生了多少垃圾事情。

It's the fact that they have emotions that they are not sitting, feeling or expressing.

事实上，他们有一些情绪，但他们没有坐着、感受或表达。

That's another huge chunk of stuff.

那又是一大块东西。

Joe Hudson: Depression is usually unmoved anger, is another example.

乔·哈德森：抑郁通常是不为所动的愤怒，这是另一个例子。

There's so many levels in which people not able to feel really limits their life.

人们无法感受到的很多层面确实限制了他们的生活。

Just one that's like almost everybody can relate to is feeling excitement is something that most people can only do for about 10 to 20 seconds.

几乎每个人都能体会到的一点是，大多数人只能感受到兴奋大约 10 到 20 秒。

Most people aren't like, "Oh, I'm excited." If you walked into a Denny's and there was this person, a 60-year-old man and just excited and was excited for 10 minutes, you'd be like, "What's wrong with this person?" When we're excited, it's contagious.

大多数人不会说，“哦，我很兴奋。”如果你走进丹尼店，看到这个人，一个 60 岁的男人，他很兴奋，而且兴奋了 10 分钟，你会说，“这个人怎么了？”当我们兴奋时，它是具有传染性的。

I walk into a meeting and I'm excited, probably other people are going to walk out excited.

我走进一个会议，我很兴奋，可能其他人也会很兴奋地离开。

We're limiting just our ability to create collaboration by the fact that we're limited by our excitement.

我们受到兴奋的限制，从而限制了我们创造协作的能力。

I could go on forever.

我可以永远继续下去。

There's so many experiences like this.

类似这样的经历还有很多。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing is the core issues, we're not able to feel our emotion, but there's something there, like we are angry or scared.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的是核心问题，我们无法感受到我们的情绪，但有一些东西在那里，就像我们生气或害怕一样。

Because we can't feel it, we just can't break through that.

因为我们感觉不到它，所以我们无法突破它。

Joe Hudson: Not quite.

乔·哈德森：不完全是。

If you have somebody who's experienced a lot of emotional abuse in their life, then they might not be able to feel the emotions that they're having, and particularly where you experienced the emotional abuse.

如果你的某人在生活中经历过很多情感虐待，那么他们可能无法感受到他们所拥有的情感，尤其是在你经历过情感虐待的地方。

That might be the case for them.

他们的情况可能就是这样。

For instance, if you had physical abuse and I put a quarter in one of your hands and a key in another one of your hands without telling you which was which, you wouldn't be able to tell me if you'd suffered enough physical abuse because you've literally cut that sensation off.

例如，如果你受到身体虐待，而我把一枚硬币放在你的一只手上，一把钥匙放在你的另一只手上，而不告诉你哪一个是哪一个，你将无法告诉我你是否遭受了足够的身体虐待，因为你实际上已经切断了这种感觉。

Similarly, people who've experienced emotional abuse can often not tell what the emotions are.

同样，经历过情感虐待的人通常也无法分辨自己的情绪是什么。

Now, emotional abuse is, it's a big word.

现在，情感虐待是一个很大的词。

Generally, people don't even like equating the two.

一般来说，人们甚至不喜欢将两者等同起来。

Just to agree on terms here, when I say emotional abuse, I mean you were told that you weren't allowed to have a certain emotion.

只是为了在这里达成一致，当我说情感虐待时，我的意思是你被告知你不被允许有某种情绪。

That's what I mean by emotional abuse.

这就是我所说的情感虐待。

Joe Hudson: Maybe you got fed every time you got angry or you got your love removed, or you got punished, or maybe every time you cried, you were made fun of.

乔·哈德森：也许你每次生气时都会得到喂食，或者你的爱被移除，或者你受到惩罚，或者也许每次你哭泣时，你都会被取笑。

My particular background was that.

我的特殊背景就是这样。

It's when you weren't allowed to feel certain emotions, you were told to cut it off because it wasn't going to be safe because you're either going to get bribed out of it or punished out of it, or loved removed because of it or made fun of or whatever it is.

当你不被允许感受到某些情绪时，你被告知要切断它，因为它不会安全，因为你要么会因为它而被贿赂，要么会受到惩罚，或者因为它而被爱，或者被取笑或其他什么。

That might be a step that one has to take, but the place you want to get to is where the emotions are fluid, where it just moves right through you.

这可能是一个人必须采取的一步，但你想要到达的地方是情绪流动的地方，它直接穿过你的地方。

It doesn't mean that you lose control.

这并不意味着你失去了控制。

As a matter of fact, losing control means that there's still resistance in it.

事实上，失去控制就意味着还有阻力。

Joe Hudson: The way I think about this is that emotions are like a tube, let's say, and there's water moving through the tube.

乔·哈德森：我对此的看法是，情绪就像一根管子，比方说，水在管子中流动。

You kink a tube one way, the water comes out a little funny.

你用一种方式扭结一根管子，出来的水有点奇怪。

Kink the tube the other way, it comes a little funny.

把管子换个方向扭结，有点滑稽。

Let's say you have anger and that's the tube of, and you kink it one way and it's like, "You son of a bitch.

假设你有愤怒，这就是愤怒的根源，你用一种方式扭曲它，就像，“你这个王八蛋。

You blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You kink get another way and it's like, "Nice dress.

你啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊”你想换一种方式，就像，“漂亮的衣服。

You crank it another way and it's guilt.

如果你用另一种方式来处理它，那就是内疚。

It's like, "Why would you ever do that to me?" Then if it's unkinked, then it's like Gandhi or Martin Luther king.

就像，“你为什么要这样对我？”如果它是完整的，那么它就像甘地或马丁路德金。

It's this very loving boundary that's set.

这是设定的非常有爱的界限。

It's this clarity of purpose.

正是这种明确的目的。

That's how I think about it.

我就是这么想的。

The idea is to get to fluidity, to unkink the hose so that all of the emotional experiences come out with love.

这个想法是要达到流动性，打开软管，让所有的情感体验都带着爱而来。

Lenny Rachitsky: I did a meditation retreat, a 10-day silent meditation retreat, which I know is a big part of your practice and something that led to the work you do now.

Lenny Rachitsky：我进行了一次冥想静修，为期 10 天的静默冥想静修，我知道这是你练习的重要组成部分，也是你现在所做工作的一部分。

A term that's coming up for me is non-judgmental awareness.

我想到的一个术语是非评判意识。

Basically, experiencing the thing you're feeling and just letting it go, not attaching to it, not judging it.

基本上，体验你所感受到的东西，然后放手，不执着于它，不评判它。

Is that along the lines of stuff you'd recommend?

这符合你推荐的东西吗？

Joe Hudson: Yeah, it's definitely a huge part of it.

乔·哈德森：是的，这绝对是其中很大一部分。

There's a couple of things that I noticed get in the way, or the translation gets in the way there.

我注意到有几件事妨碍了，或者翻译妨碍了那里。

One is it's like, think about emotions as like kids in your house.

一是，像家里的孩子一样思考情绪。

If a kid came into your house and you're like, "I will be non-judgmentally aware of you." You're probably going to get a very different response from the kid than if you're like, "Oh, I'm so excited to see you.

如果一个孩子来到你家，你会说，“我会不加评判地意识到你。”你可能会从孩子那里得到非常不同的反应，而不是你说：“哦，我很高兴见到你。

I welcome you in my house." The emotions feel different if you're like, "I am non-judgmentally aware of this emotion," or, "Oh, cool.

我欢迎你来到我家。”如果你说，“我不加评判地意识到这种情绪”，或者“哦，酷。

Oh cool, I'm sad.

噢，太好了，我很难过。

This is fantastic." If you have that welcoming invitation.

这太棒了。”如果您收到了欢迎邀请。

One of the quotes that I'm most famous for is joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome.

我最著名的名言之一是快乐是一个情感家庭的女家长，她不会进入一个不欢迎她的孩子的房子。

A very joyful life is a life where all the other emotions are deeply welcomed, not accepted, not non-judgmentally aware of.

一种非常快乐的生活是一种所有其他情感都受到深深欢迎、不被接受、而不是不加评判地意识到的生活。

I think those are really great steps, don't get me wrong.

我认为这些都是非常伟大的步骤，请不要误会我的意思。

If you can be in non-judgmental awareness of an emotion, fantastic.

如果你能够不带评判地意识到某种情绪，那就太棒了。

Joe Hudson: The other thing that's a little bit different about what you said is that emotions do need to be felt.

乔·哈德森：另一件事与你所说的有点不同，那就是情绪确实需要被感受。

If you stop feeling an emotion, you have to constrict your muscles.

如果你不再感受到某种情绪，你就必须收缩你的肌肉。

I can watch somebody come in, come up for one of my coaching rapid coaching sessions.

我可以看到有人进来参加我的快速辅导课程。

By the crease in their eyebrow, I can know that there's repressed anger.

从他们眉间的皱纹，我知道他们压抑着愤怒。

By the hunch in their shoulders, I can tell you about the critical parent that they had.

通过他们肩膀上的预感，我可以告诉你他们有一位挑剔的父母。

The body takes on a shape that's based on the emotions that you've been taught to hold.

身体的形状取决于你被教导要保持​​的情绪。

You don't just by sitting there, well, it's not entirely true, if you just sit there and feel them in that way without the full expression, they will move eventually, but it might take a couple of decades.

你不只是坐在那里，嗯，这并不完全正确，如果你只是坐在那里，以那种方式感受它们，而没有完整的表达，它们最终会移动，但这可能需要几十年。

You can actually just move them.

实际上你可以移动它们。

You can actually make the sound, move your body.

你实际上可以发出声音，移动你的身体。

All mammals do it.

所有哺乳动物都会这样做。

Like mammals releasing fear, they all shake.

就像哺乳动物释放恐惧一样，它们都会颤抖。

It's part of how we exist.

这是我们存在方式的一部分。

That's also a really big part of emotional fluidity.

这也是情绪流动性的一个非常重要的部分。

It's not just being still and feeling them, it's letting the muscles move, making the sounds.

这不仅仅是静止不动并感觉它们，而是让肌肉移动，发出声音。

Lenny Rachitsky: For someone that wants to get better at the skill of feeling emotions, being more in touch with emotions, helping their emotions be more fluid.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些想要更好地感受情绪、更多地接触情绪、帮助他们的情绪更加流畅的人来说。

I know this is a lifelong practice and not something you would just hear on a podcast, okay, I've installed this.

我知道这是一个终生的实践，而不是你只会在播客上听到的东西，好吧，我已经安装了这个。

Is there anything tactically you can recommend to a listener of just like, here's something you could do this week that'll help you, along these lines?

您是否可以在战术上向听众推荐任何东西，例如，本周您可以做一些对您有帮助的事情？

Joe Hudson: We have a free audio on our website called Emotional Inquiry, and that would be the easiest way that I would, that's a really good entry level first step into emotional fluidity.

乔·哈德森：我们的网站上有一个免费音频，名为“情感探究”，这将是我最简单的方法，这是进入情感流动性的非常好的入门级第一步。

The bigger problem is that every step has a different thing.

更大的问题是每一步都有不同的东西。

If you're in the not aware of emotions, then that step may not be the right step for you.

如果您无法意识到情绪，那么这一步可能不适合您。

Though, if you are aware two or three emotions and you can do emotional inquiry, usually, it'll open up a lot of the other ones.

不过，如果你意识到两种或三种情绪，并且你可以进行情绪探究，通常，它会打开很多其他的情绪。

There might be a point where you really need expression, and so emotional inquiry is not going to work.

可能到了某个时刻你确实需要表达，所以情感探究是行不通的。

Just generally, the emotional inquiry practice is a really good one.

总的来说，情感探究练习是一种非常好的练习。

What it is, is imagine you're a little kid and you pick up a toad.

想象一下你是一个小孩，你捡起了一只蟾蜍。

Joe Hudson: You're going to pick it up, you're going to look at it, you're going to feel it, you're going to smell it.

乔·哈德森：你要把它捡起来，你会看它，你会感觉它，你会闻它。

Some little kids are even going to lick it a little bit.

有些小孩子甚至会去舔它一点。

They're going to really want to explore this toad, and that's what emotional inquiry is, is a somatic mental experiencing of an emotional experience in your body and what is it like and what happens when you welcome it.

他们真的很想探索这只蟾蜍，这就是情感探究，是对你身体中的情感体验的躯体心理体验，它是什么样的，当你欢迎它时会发生什么。

What happens when you love it.

当你爱它时会发生什么。

What happens when you resist it.

当你抵抗它时会发生什么。

It's a series of experiments that you're playing with the emotion and observations and felt sense of the emotion, and that I find to be incredibly, incredibly useful for people.

这是一系列的实验，你可以用情感和观察来进行，并感受情感，我发现这对人们来说非常非常有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, the quote you shared about joy being the matriarchy of all the other emotions, imagine people have said this, but inside out too, I think is exactly a representation of what you're talking about, where joy is actually, she's like the protagonist almost.

Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，你分享的关于快乐是所有其他情感的母权制的引言，想象一下人们已经说过这一点，但从内到外，我认为这正是你所谈论的内容的代表，快乐实际上，她几乎就像主角一样。

I don't know if you've seen it yet.

不知道你有没有看过。

Joe Hudson: I think I've heard about this.

乔·哈德森：我想我听说过这个。

I haven't watched it, but I think where you think it's all about being happy and you find out that you have to accept everything for happiness to really work, kind of.

我还没看过，但我认为你认为一切都是为了快乐，然后你发现你必须接受一切才能让快乐真正发挥作用，有点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Anxiety takes over, and then things don't go well.

Lenny Rachitsky：焦虑占据上风，然后事情就不会顺利。

Something else that I've noticed listening to a bunch of your conversations, you do these lightning round coaching sessions with people, and so I listen to a bunch of them.

我还注意到，在听你们的谈话时，你们与人们进行了闪电般的辅导课程，所以我听了其中的一些谈话。

Something that was really interesting to me is that a lot of people come to you and they're like, "Hey, I have this problem.

对我来说真正有趣的是，很多人来找你，他们会说，“嘿，我有这个问题。

I can't do this hard thing I know I need to do." Or, "I have imposter syndrome just keeping me from doing this thing I need to do." you're often like, "No, that's not actually what's going on here.

我无法做这件我知道我需要做的困难的事情。”或者，“我患有冒名顶替综合症，只是让我无法做我需要做的事情。”你经常会说，“不，这实际上并不是这里发生的事情。

I can see that's not a problem for you.

我看这对你来说不是问题。

It's really this other thing." Is that super common where people think they need to work on this one thing, and it turns out that's not at all, they're actually okay at that and something totally else?

这确实是另一回事。”人们认为他们需要做这一件事，但事实证明根本不是这样，他们实际上在这件事上没问题，而在其他事情上却做得很好，这种情况是不是很常见？

Joe Hudson: I'd maybe put it a little bit differently.

Joe Hudson：我的说法可能有点不同。

They're living in a story that describes an old version of themselves or they don't see themselves clearly enough to be able to see the whole issue, and so they're just kind of living with a story that's in the past.

他们生活在一个描述自己旧版本的故事中，或者他们对自己的认识不够清晰，无法看到整个问题，所以他们只是生活在过去的故事中。

That's a really common thing.

这确实是很常见的事情。

Oftentimes, if I do that in a coaching session, typically it's because they're showing me right there that it's not true.

通常，如果我在辅导课程中这样做，通常是因为他们在那里向我展示这不是真的。

Somebody's like, "I'm so scared, I can't do anything." I'm like, "You just got in front of a hundred people to ask me a question.

有人会说：“我很害怕，我什么也做不了。”我想，“你刚刚在一百个人面前问我一个问题。

Clearly, you're not so scared that you can't do anything, so I'm not buying it." I don't do it quite like that, I do it with a lot more love than that.

显然，你并没有害怕到什么都做不了，所以我不相信。”我并不是那样做的，我是带着更多的爱去做的。

Joe Hudson: Oftentimes, I see that people's stories are a culprit, like how they describe themselves.

乔·哈德森：我经常发现人们的故事是罪魁祸首，就像他们如何描述自己一样。

A great way that you can really see this in folks is that nine out of 10 times that you compliment somebody, I really appreciate this thing about you, they're going to go, "Nah." Or, "Well, my sister is even more." Or, "If you knew me." They're going to do some sort of version like that.

你能真正在人们身上看到这一点的一个好方法是，十分之九你赞美某人，我真的很欣赏你的这一点，他们会说，“不。”或者，“嗯，我姐姐更厉害。”或者，“如果你认识我就好了。”他们将制作类似的版本。

It basically is one of the indicators that they can't actually feel who they are.

这基本上是他们无法真正感受到自己是谁的指标之一。

They would rather, in effect, call you a liar.

事实上，他们宁愿称你为骗子。

You're lying to me or you're wrong than they would to actually accept the experience of being seen in that way.

你在骗我，或者你错了，他们不会真正接受被以这种方式看待的经历。

It does a couple of things.

它做了几件事。

One of the things it does is it stops people from seeing themselves clearly.

它的作用之一是它阻止人们清楚地看到自己。

The other thing it does is it makes people forever want to be seen and complimented and acknowledged and validated because they're getting the food, but they can't digest it.

它所做的另一件事是，它让人们永远希望被看到、被称赞、被承认和被认可，因为他们得到了食物，但他们无法消化它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have any advice other than working with you and you telling them, "Hey, here's actually going on," for someone to like, okay, maybe revisit, maybe this isn't actually a problem to see what's actually going on?

Lenny Rachitsky：除了和你一起工作，你告诉他们，“嘿，这实际上正在发生”，让某人喜欢，好吧，也许重温一下，也许这实际上并不是一个问题，看看到底发生了什么，你还有什么建议吗？

Joe Hudson: We have a set of five kind of what we think are foundational tools for transformation, and we do these free workshops on them, and one of them is question the assumption.

Joe Hudson：我们有一套五种我们认为是转型的基础工具，我们针对它们举办了这些免费研讨会，其中之一是对假设的质疑。

That's a really great way to have people start to see through their stories.

这是让人们开始看清自己故事的好方法。

At the beginning, I said, "Nothing in the critical voice in your head says is true." This is how it applies, so typically, there's an assumption that you have to make for the problem to be real.

一开始，我说：“你头脑中批评的声音所说的一切都不是真的。”这就是它的应用方式，因此通常情况下，您必须做出假设才能使问题成为现实。

If somebody says to you, for instance, if somebody comes to me and says, "I am an asshole to my girlfriend." That's their problem.

例如，如果有人对你说，如果有人来找我说：“我对我的女朋友来说是个混蛋。”这是他们的问题。

One, you have to assume that the girlfriend doesn't want you to be an asshole, as an example.

第一，举个例子，你必须假设女朋友不希望你成为一个混蛋。

Two, you have to assume that you know what being an asshole actually is.

第二，你必须假设你知道混蛋到底是什么。

It's not just what your mom told you an asshole was.

这不仅仅是你妈妈告诉你的混蛋。

Joe Hudson: Three, there's some validation, there's another assumption, there's some clear thing that says this in the world.

乔·哈德森：三，有一些验证，还有另一个假设，世界上有一些明确的事情说明了这一点。

Everyone's like, that's an asshole and that's not, rather than what actually happens in the world, which is 50% of the people think that this person is an asshole and 50% think they're a hero.

每个人都会说，那是个混蛋，那不是，而不是世界上实际发生的情况，即 50% 的人认为这个人是混蛋，50% 的人认为他们是英雄。

It's something like that.

就是这样的。

Also, another assumption there is that the problem is that you're an asshole, instead of that you're resisting the fact that you are an asshole, and therefore, it comes out sideways instead of really clear.

另外，另一个假设是，问题在于你是个混蛋，而不是你在抵制自己是个混蛋的事实，因此，结果是侧面的而不是真正清晰的。

There's so many assumptions in there.

里面有很多假设。

If you see through those assumptions, usually the problem starts fading away.

如果你看清了这些假设，通常问题就会开始消失。

Joe Hudson: It's like, "Oh, okay, what do I mean by asshole, exactly?

乔·哈德森：就像，“哦，好吧，我说的混蛋到底是什么意思？

How do I define that?" It seems like a silly thing when I am using this example of asshole.

我该如何定义它？”当我使用这个混蛋的例子时，这似乎是一件愚蠢的事情。

I remember this moment in my own development, I was in Bodega Bay, out of all places, and this very good friend of mine at the time was like, "Joe, you're an asshole." I was like, "No, I'm not." He's like, "Why resist it?

我记得在我自己的成长过程中的这一刻，我在博德加湾，在所有地方中，当时我的一位非常好的朋友就像，“乔，你是个混蛋。”我当时想，“不，我不是。”他说：“为什么要抗拒呢？

Just fall in love with the fact that you're an asshole.

只是爱上你是个混蛋这一事实。

Just allow yourself to be an asshole for just a minute, just one minute." I stopped, and I thought of like, I was doing venture capital at the time, and I could think of all the things that I had done that somebody would call an asshole, and all the ways in which I was unattuned to people, and I could, "Oh, yeah, okay, I can totally see that I'm an asshole."

让自己当个混蛋一分钟，就一分钟。”我停了下来，我想到，我当时正在做风险投资，我可以想到我所做的所有事情，有人会称之为混蛋，以及我与人不协调的所有方式，我可以，“哦，是的，好吧，我完全可以看到我是一个混蛋。”

Joe Hudson: In that scene, not only in the scene of it, but as the shame fell away, oh, this is nothing I have to defend.

乔·哈德森：在那个场景中，不仅是在场景中，而且当耻辱消失时，哦，这不是我必须捍卫的。

This isn't something that I'm a bad person because of, I don't need to be ashamed of it.

这并不是因为我是一个坏人，我不需要为此感到羞耻。

This is just some actions that I took.

这只是我采取的一些行动。

As that faded away, then and then over the next couple weeks, lo and behold, I became less of an asshole.

随着这种感觉逐渐消失，在接下来的几周里，你瞧，我变得不再那么混蛋了。

It's a strange thing when you really grok that, that it's often shame that holds bad habits in place.

当你真正体会到这一点时，你就会发现这是一件奇怪的事情，因为养成坏习惯往往是因为羞耻。

Is it a problem that I'm an asshole, or is the problem that I'm ashamed of being an asshole?

是我是个混蛋的问题，还是我为自己是混蛋而感到羞耻的问题？

Is the problem that you're a smoker, is the problem that you're ashamed of being a smoker?

问题是你是一个吸烟者，问题是你因吸烟而感到羞耻吗？

Typically, there's so many assumptions built into everything that we call a problem, and if we look through those assumptions, the problems disappear.

通常情况下，我们所说的问题中内置了如此多的假设，如果我们审视这些假设，问题就会消失。

As in this case, it disappeared for me.

就像在这种情况下，它对我来说消失了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。

There's a lot there.

那里有很多东西。

It connects to something I know you recently talked about, which is the emotion we want to avoid is the thing we end up experiencing a lot by trying to avoid it.

它与我知道你最近谈到的一些事情有关，那就是我们想要避免的情绪，而我们通过试图避免它而最终经历了很多事情。

What's going on there?

那里发生了什么事？

Joe Hudson: Since I'm coach executives, let's do an executive example, so conflict avoidant executive.

乔·哈德森：既然我是教练高管，让我们举一个高管的例子，避免冲突的高管。

I don't want to feel the out of control in this that I do when people argue.

当人们争论时，我不想感到失控。

I don't want to feel that level of out of control, so I am going to be conflict avoidant.

我不想有那种失控的感觉，所以我会避免冲突。

I'm going to avoid conflict.

我要避免冲突。

Every way that we go to avoid a feeling, becomes the way that, that feeling gets invited towards us.

我们为避免某种感觉而采取的每一种方式，都会成为那种感觉被邀请到我们身边的方式。

We all know what it's like to work for a conflict-avoidant CEO or a boss, people get really fucking upset.

我们都知道为一个避免冲突的首席执行官或老板工作是什么感觉，人们真的会非常沮丧。

Eventually, people get really upset.

最终，人们变得非常沮丧。

Decisions aren't being made.

尚未做出决定。

There's all this tension.

这一切都是紧张的。

It's never relieved.

从来都没有释然过。

Joe Hudson: Then wow, sure enough, the conflict-avoidant CEO is dealing with a whole organization that's tense and they feel completely out of control and the fact that they can't do anything about, so that's an example.

乔·哈德森：那么哇，果然，避免冲突的首席执行官正在与整个组织打交道，整个组织都很紧张，他们感觉完全失控，事实上他们无能为力，所以这就是一个例子。

Or when I was younger, it was emotional abandonment.

或者说，当我年轻的时候，那是一种情感上的遗弃。

My dad was an alcoholic, and I didn't want to feel that emotional abandonment again, and so I would get really hard when I felt like people were leaving me, I'd be like, "What the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah?" Which of course, made them abandon me quicker, or I would try to caretaker people, which would build resentment, which would make people abandon me.

我的父亲是个酒鬼，我不想再次感受到那种情感上的遗弃，所以当我觉得人们离开我时，我会变得非常困难，我会说，“什么啊，啊，啊，啊，啊？”当然，这会让他们更快地抛弃我，或者我会尝试照顾人们，这会产生怨恨，这会让人们抛弃我。

Whatever emotion that you're trying to avoid, you are inviting into your life in exactly the way that you're trying to avoid it.

无论你试图避免什么情绪，你都会以你试图避免的方式邀请它进入你的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: What the hell?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：到底是什么？

Why does this happen?

为什么会出现这种情况？

Joe Hudson: It is counterproductive.

乔·哈德森：这会适得其反。

I think that the really cool thing about it is you can look at any issue that you're having in your life, so you can say, oh, one of the problems that I have in my life is that I am constantly in an argument with my girlfriend or boyfriend, let's say.

我认为最酷的一点是你可以看到生活中遇到的任何问题，所以你可以说，哦，我生活中遇到的问题之一是我经常和我的女朋友或男朋友争吵，比方说。

What is the thing that you don't want to feel in that argument?

在这场争论中，你不想感受到什么？

I don't want to feel ashamed.

我不想感到羞耻。

You're getting in arguments because you don't want to feel ashamed, and that's making you feel more ashamed.

你之所以会争吵，是因为你不想感到羞耻，而这让你感到更加羞耻。

What am I doing at that first time to not feel ashamed?

我第一次做什么才能不感到羞耻？

I'm defending myself.

我正在为自己辩护。

Oh, and me defending myself is actually the thing that's starting the fight.

哦，我为自己辩护实际上是引发战斗的事情。

You can backward engineer it to, oh, I don't want to feel ashamed, therefore I'm going to defend myself, which creates the fight, which makes me feel more ashamed.

你可以对其进行反向工程，哦，我不想感到羞耻，因此我要保护自己，这会产生战斗，这让我感到更羞耻。

Joe Hudson: Any problem that you're having, you can actually backwards engineer it and see, oh, I can solve that problem by just being okay with that feeling.

Joe Hudson：你遇到的任何问题，你实际上都可以对其进行反向工程，然后看看，哦，我可以通过接受这种感觉来解决这个问题。

God damn it, you didn't take out the trash.

该死的，你没有倒垃圾。

Oh, that's a shame I don't want to feel.

哦，那是一种耻辱，我不想感受到这种感觉。

I'm not going to defend myself.

我不会为自己辩护。

I'm going to feel that shame.

我会感受到那种耻辱。

Oh, yeah, then maybe I'm going to say I'm sorry I didn't take out the trash, or I'm going to say, I don't feel ashamed, I don't want to take out the trash.

哦，是的，那么也许我会说我很抱歉我没有倒垃圾，或者我会说，我不感到羞耻，我不想倒垃圾。

I have to defend myself to get in the fight, and then I'm going to feel ashamed.

我必须保护自己才能参加战斗，然后我就会感到羞愧。

You can reverse engineer all your problems this way.

您可以通过这种方式对所有问题进行逆向工程。

It's like it's such a cool hack, but it's very hard.

好像这是一个很酷的技巧，但它非常困难。

For somehow or another, it's very simple, but very hard for people to utilize.

不知何故，它非常简单，但人们很难利用。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。

The advice is basically feel the thing and just come to terms with this is the emotion I'm feeling, and maybe, like an example, the asshole.

建议基本上是感受这件事，然后接受这就是我的感受，也许，就像一个例子，混蛋。

Well, maybe I'm an asshole.

好吧，也许我是个混蛋。

Joe Hudson: It's what's required for you to love and accept yourself would be, and love and accept the emotion that you're having in the moment instead of resist it.

乔·哈德森：这就是你需要爱和接受自己的要求，爱和接受你当下所拥有的情感，而不是抗拒它。

There's that saying, what we resist persists.

有句话说，我们所抗拒的东西依然存在。

How do you fall in love with and stop resisting the reality on the ground?

你如何爱上并停止抗拒现实？

In doing so, it changes the reality on the ground.

这样做，它改变了现实。

Lenny Rachitsky: In this argument with your supposed girlfriend, say you disagree about her perspective on what's going on.

Lenny Rachitsky：在与你所谓的女朋友的争论中，假设你不同意她对正在发生的事情的看法。

I guess that's not the root issue here.

我想这不是根本问题。

It's your feeling, it's not her perception.

这是你的感觉，不是她的看法。

Joe Hudson: Hey, sweetheart, I really hear you want me to take out the trash, and that's not my truth.

乔·哈德森：嘿，亲爱的，我真的听说你想让我去倒垃圾，但这不是我的真心话。

That's going to be very different than defending that shame.

这与捍卫这种耻辱有很大不同。

The defending the shame is going to be like, no, it's not my job to take out the chat.

捍卫耻辱的人会说，不，取消聊天不是我的工作。

You're trying not to feel the experience, which is what's going to do it.

你试图不去感受这种体验，而这正是它的作用。

The response isn't the important thing.

回应并不重要。

It's really where the response comes from.

这确实是响应的来源。

It's so interesting because people are taught constantly, this is something we teach in the connection courses that it's really not about the conversation, it's about where you're at in the conversation.

这很有趣，因为人们不断地被教导，这是我们在连接课程中教授的东西，它实际上不是关于对话，而是关于你在对话中所处的位置。

For instance, when my friend said to me, "Hey, you're a dick." Here's what he didn't do, he's like, he didn't go, "You're a dick.

例如，当我的朋友对我说：“嘿，你是个混蛋。”这就是他没有做的事情，他就像，他没有说，“你是个混蛋。

You asshole.

你这个混蛋。

You're being an asshole.

你就是个混蛋。

You're being a dick.

你真是个混蛋。

Fucking stop it." He was like, "Eh, you're a dick, so what?

他妈的别这样了。”他说：“呃，你是个混蛋，那又怎样？

What's the problem?" He was coming from a place of love for me, and so I could not be defended in my response to him.

有什么问题吗？”他来自对我的爱，所以我对他的回应是无法辩护的。

It's really where you come from.

这确实是你来自的地方。

Joe Hudson: It's the emotionally where you come from, that's the important part.

乔·哈德森：这是你的情感来源，这是重要的部分。

Not as much what you say.

没有你说的那么多。

You can see this, a perfect example of this is, this happens all the time in my work.

你可以看到这一点，一个完美的例子是，这种情况在我的工作中经常发生。

Let's say there's a person who has a CEO and the person is scared of their CEO.

假设有一个人有一位首席执行官，而这个人害怕他们的首席执行官。

Let's say this is the CMO, and they're, "I'm scared of the CEO.

假设这是首席营销官，他们说：“我害怕首席执行官。

I can't say my truth.

我无法说出我的真相。

They're always getting upset.

他们总是心烦意乱。

They're going to yell, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I'll say, yeah, there's one person who says it though.

他们会大喊，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉。”我会说，是的，虽然有人这么说。

The answer is always yes.

答案总是肯定的。

That CEO has one person who they don't yell at, who they listen to, who they'll take the objection from, that they don't get angry with.

那位首席执行官有一个他们不会对他大喊大叫的人，他们会听他的意见，他们会接受他的反对，他们不会对他生气。

It's because there's somebody who doesn't approach them in fear.

这是因为有人因恐惧而不敢接近他们。

It's because somebody approaches them a different way.

这是因为有人以不同的方式接近他们。

Not with judgment, but like, "Hey, look, this is what we have to pay attention to." It's really about how you're coming at it and not what you're saying typically.

不是带着判断，而是像，“嘿，看，这就是我们必须注意的。”这实际上是关于你如何做到这一点，而不是你通常所说的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Coda 为您带来。

I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows.

我每天都使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和时事通讯工作流程。

From collecting questions for guests to storing all my research to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years.

从收集客人的问题到存储我所有的研究成果，再到管理我的时事通讯内容日历，Coda 是我的首选应用程序，多年来一直如此。

Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help me get more done, and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

Coda 结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，帮助我完成更多工作，Coda 可以通过在一个位置管理您的计划周期、在团队和利益相关者之间全面可见的情况下设置和衡量 OKR、映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险领域，帮助您的团队保持一致并更快地交付。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can also access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策框架的所有内容。

See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda.

亲自了解为什么 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等公司在 Coda 上运行。

Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan.

前往 coda.io/lenny 并注册即可获得六个月免费的团队计划。

That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan.

可以在 coda.io/lenny 上注册并获得六个月的团队计划。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

This is amazing, Joe.

这太棒了，乔。

I'm very happy with what advice we've already shared and there's more I want to tap into.

我对我们已经分享的建议感到非常满意，而且我还想利用更多建议。

Joe Hudson: You keep using the word advice, and I just want to, so for anybody who's listening, do not take my advice.

乔·哈德森：你一直在使用“建议”这个词，而我只是想这样做，所以对于任何正在听的人，不要接受我的建议。

Do not, do not, do not.

不要，不要，不要。

Test it.

测试一下。

Experiment.

实验。

Set up an experiment, try it out.

设立一个实验，尝试一下。

See if it's true for you.

看看这是否适合你。

It's one, I just made this shit up.

这是一个，我刚刚编造了这个狗屎。

Somebody else could make up something different.

其他人可以编造一些不同的东西。

It's like Jeff Bezos made up Amazon.

这就像杰夫·贝索斯创造了亚马逊。

We make stuff up, but we're humans.

我们编造东西，但我们是人类。

Two, is if you instead of just listen to it as a soundbite, if you actually do it and make an experiment out of it, you get to learn.

第二，如果你不只是把它当作原声片段来听，如果你真的去做并做一个实验，你就能学到东西。

It's in your bones.

它在你的骨头里。

You get to see what's actually real for you.

你会看到什么对你来说才是真正的。

What's real for you in this moment might not be real for you what's in the next moment.

这一刻对你来说真实的事情可能对你下一刻来说并不真实。

For instance, I could give the advice that says, hey, you can't even control your thoughts.

例如，我可以给出这样的建议：嘿，你甚至无法控制自己的想法。

Joe Hudson: You can't even decide what thought you are going to have next is, it's just going to fucking happen.

乔·哈德森：你甚至无法决定你接下来会有什么想法，它就会他妈的发生。

you're completely out of control, and so it's all a gift.

你完全失控了，所以这一切都是一份礼物。

Can you look at life as all a gift?

你能把生命视为一份礼物吗？

Wow, that could be really useful for one person, but the other person, they feel so disempowered that they're like, "I can't even control my own thoughts.

哇，这对一个人来说可能真的很有用，但对另一个人来说，他们感到非常无能为力，以至于他们会说，“我什至无法控制自己的想法。

Man, I am totally trapped." They might really need at that moment to learn that, "Oh, I have empowerment, I have choice." That's the advice that they need to hear.

伙计，我完全被困住了。”他们可能真的需要在那一刻了解到，“哦，我有权力，我有选择。”这就是他们需要听到的建议。

Do the experiment, find out what's true for you in this moment.

做实验，找出此时此刻适合你的情况。

If there's a piece of advice, that's the one I want to give.

如果有什么建议的话，这就是我想提供的。

Lenny Rachitsky: let's share more experiments people can run.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们分享更多人们可以进行的实验。

Another is this thread that I feel comes up a lot in your work is you're just really big on helping people feel joy.

另一个是我觉得在你的工作中经常出现的这条线索，因为你非常热衷于帮助人们感到快乐。

Feels like that's the core of what you're trying to help people is feel more joy.

感觉这就是你试图帮助人们感受到更多快乐的核心。

Why is that so important?

为什么这如此重要？

Why is joy so important, so powerful?

为什么喜乐如此重要、如此强大？

Joe Hudson: I definitely would not want anyone to feel joy.

乔·哈德森：我绝对不希望任何人感到快乐。

I wouldn't want to push somebody into or like, "Hey, you should feel joy." What I would say that's a close cousin to that is that enjoyment is such an important tool for productivity.

我不想强迫某人或喜欢说“嘿，你应该感到高兴。”我想说的是，与此密切相关的是，享受是提高生产力的重要工具。

Enjoyment is such an important tool for living a meaningful life.

享受是过上有意义的生活的重要工具。

Enjoyment is an amazing tool.

享受是一个了不起的工具。

As an example, let's say you drive a Ferrari, you're not going to say, hey, that's an efficient car.

举个例子，假设你驾驶一辆法拉利，你不会说，嘿，这是一辆高效的汽车。

That's a super-efficient car.

这是一辆超级高效的汽车。

You're going to say, no, that's a fast car.

你会说，不，那是一辆快车。

Somehow in our own lives, if we get something done quickly, we're efficient, but that's not efficient.

不知何故，在我们自己的生活中，如果我们快速完成某件事，我们就很有效率，但事实并非如此。

You can go and get something done quickly and then you're so exhausted.

你可以快速完成某件事，然后你就会精疲力竭。

What's efficient is if at the end of whatever you did, you feel like you have more energy, like you're stoked, like, oh, I can't wait to do this again tomorrow.

有效的方法是，无论你做了什么，你都会觉得自己有更多的能量，就像你很兴奋，就像，哦，我迫不及待地想明天再做一次。

That's efficiency, is that you've actually used the least amount of energy to get something done.

这就是效率，就是你实际上使用了最少的能量来完成某件事。

If you say, oh, I'm going to figure out how to enjoy what I do 10% more and you succeed, you are 10% more efficient.

如果你说，哦，我要弄清楚如何多享受我所做的 10%，并且你成功了，那么你的效率就会提高 10%。

Joe Hudson: Not only that, usually, the quality is going to get a lot better too.

Joe Hudson：不仅如此，通常质量也会变得更好。

If you enjoy running, you're probably going to run more than if you don't enjoy running.

如果你喜欢跑步，你可能会比不喜欢跑步的人跑得更多。

If you enjoy doing a podcast, you're probably going to make a better podcast and you're going to do it for longer if you enjoy doing it.

如果您喜欢制作播客，那么您可能会制作出更好的播客，并且如果您喜欢这样做，您就会做更长时间。

There's something really, really important about enjoyment because it's not only a measure of efficiency, it also has a strong correlation with hire in most things has a strong correlation with how long you're going to do it, your staying power, the quality of what you're going to do, all of that.

享受确实非常重要，因为它不仅是效率的衡量标准，而且在大多数事情上与雇佣有很强的相关性，与你要做这件事的时间、你的持久力、你要做的事情的质量等等都有很强的相关性。

That's one of the reasons that I think enjoyment is really great.

这就是我认为享受真的很棒的原因之一。

The other thing is that if you enjoy things, they feel different.

另一件事是，如果你喜欢某件事，它们就会给人不同的感觉。

I think one of the things that people do is they say this, they say, "I want to enjoy my life more, so I'm going to do less things, take out the trash, and I'm going to do more things like go on vacation."

我认为人们做的事情之一就是他们这样说，他们说，“我想更多地享受我的生活，所以我要少做一些事情，倒垃圾，而且我要多做一些事情，比如去度假。”

Joe Hudson: That's not how enjoyment works.

乔·哈德森：享受不是这样的。

You can enjoy taking out the trash or you can hate taking out the trash.

你可以喜欢倒垃圾，也可以讨厌倒垃圾。

That's a choice.

这是一个选择。

Right now, somebody listening to this as an experiment that they can run is like, okay, you're going to stay listening to this for the next minute.

现在，有人把这个当作一个可以运行的实验来听，他们会说，好吧，你下一分钟就继续听这个。

How do you enjoy it 10% more?

你如何享受多10%的乐趣？

Typically, what will happen is somebody will take a deeper breath, they'll settle into their body a little bit more, they'll relax a little bit more.

通常，会发生的事情是有人会深呼吸，他们会更加适应自己的身体，他们会更加放松。

They might physically get more comfortable.

他们的身体可能会变得更舒服。

There's a thousand things that they might do to just enjoy the experience 10% more.

他们可能会做上千件事，只是为了多享受 10% 的体验。

That, and in that, they're becoming more efficient in that the quality is getting better in that they're hearing what I'm saying differently.

在那方面，他们变得更加高效，因为质量越来越好，因为他们以不同的方式听到我所说的内容。

It's just a really powerful tool.

它只是一个非常强大的工具。

What I know the problem to be is that some people will go, "Okay, now I have to enjoy life.

我知道问题是有些人会说：“好吧，现在我必须享受生活。

I'm going to disregard all these negative emotions so that I'm in enjoyment." That doesn't work.

我会忽略所有这些负面情绪，这样我就会享受其中。”那是行不通的。

It's horrendous.

太可怕了。

It's just a recipe for shit stew.

这只是炖屎的食谱。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines, how much of the work is learning to enjoy the thing you're doing more versus finding something that you innately enjoy?

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，有多少工作是学习享受你正在做的事情，而不是寻找你天生喜欢的事情？

Which one is more powerful?

哪一个更厉害呢？

I guess, which do you point people to?

我想，你会向人们指出哪一个？

Which experiments do you find people should run more?

您认为人们应该多进行哪些实验？

Joe Hudson: In our society, typically, it's how to enjoy what you're doing more.

乔·哈德森：在我们的社会中，通常最重要的是如何更多地享受你正在做的事情。

What happens typically is that if you find a way to enjoy the thing that you're doing more, you're more likely to do the things that you enjoy.

通常发生的情况是，如果你找到一种方法来更多地享受你正在做的事情，你就更有可能做你喜欢的事情。

It's just an order of operations thing.

这只是一个操作顺序。

As compared to there's people, a lot of the people in my circles because of who I coach and everything, they're billionaires and they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to try to arrange life that they enjoy and it doesn't fucking work.

与其他人相比，我圈子里的很多人，因为我的教练和其他一切，他们都是亿万富翁，他们花了数亿美元试图安排自己喜欢的生活，但这根本行不通。

They actually have more power to make everything that they're doing exactly what they want to do, but that doesn't work.

他们实际上有更多的权力让他们正在做的一切完全按照他们想做的方式进行，但这行不通。

Flying the jet or buying the island or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, doesn't do it.

开飞机或者买岛或者等等，等等，等等，都行不通。

Joe Hudson: Whereas if you really learn to enjoy what's in front of you, all of a sudden, one thing that happens is that you're not as scared of enjoyment.

乔·哈德森：然而，如果你真正学会享受眼前的一切，突然间，发生的一件事是你不再害怕享受。

You start saying, "Oh, wow, enjoyment makes me really effective, and so I'm want to do the things that I enjoy." You're more likely to do the things that you enjoy.

你开始说，“哦，哇，享受让我真的很有效率，所以我想做我喜欢的事情。”你更有可能做你喜欢的事情。

Instead of having this story, I have to do X, Y, and Z so that at one point in the future, I can do what I enjoy.

我不必做这个故事，而是必须做 X、Y 和 Z，以便在未来的某个时刻，我可以做我喜欢的事情。

It's just an order of operations things.

这只是一个操作顺序。

If you learn to enjoy the things that you're doing, you're going to naturally start doing the things you enjoy.

如果你学会享受你正在做的事情，你就会自然地开始做你喜欢的事情。

If you only do the things you enjoy, you will not learn how to enjoy what you're doing very well.

如果你只做你喜欢的事情，你就不会学会如何很好地享受你正在做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: You show this tip of how can I enjoy this 10% more?

Lenny Rachitsky：您向我展示了如何才能多享受这 10% 的提示？

Just ask yourself, how can I enjoy this 10% more?

问问你自己，我怎样才能多享受这10%？

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that you find helpful for helping?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为还有什么可以帮助您的吗？

Yeah, right now, how can I enjoy this 10% right now?

是啊，现在，我现在怎么享受这10%呢？

Joe Hudson: That's right.

乔·哈德森：没错。

It's not about changing anything in the external world.

这并不是要改变外部世界的任何事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Internally, what can I do?

在内部，我能做什么？

What can I change about the way I'm experiencing this?

我可以改变我经历这种情况的方式吗？

Joe Hudson: Yeah.

乔·哈德森：是的。

I like to ask it as how do you enjoy it 10% more, because if it's what can I change, then there's trying, trying is usually not more enjoyment.

我喜欢问你怎样才能多享受10%，因为如果我能改变什么，那就需要尝试，尝试通常不会带来更多乐趣。

It's actually usually letting go of trying that creates more enjoyment.

实际上，通常放弃尝试才能创造更多乐趣。

The phrasing can really make or break the question.

措辞确实可以决定问题的成败。

Lenny Rachitsky: Enjoy it 10% more.

Lenny Rachitsky：多享受 10%。

Say someone's sitting in a boring meeting that's really sucking their soul, look, they should ask themselves this question, how can I enjoy this 10% more?

假设有人坐在一个无聊的会议上，这真的在吸食他们的灵魂，你看，他们应该问自己这个问题，我怎样才能多享受这10%？

Joe Hudson: Well, should, they can.

乔·哈德森：嗯，应该，他们可以。

They get to, it's a great experiment.

他们明白了，这是一个很棒的实验。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's an experiment.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个实验。

Okay, perfect.

好的，完美。

Joe Hudson: The reason I do the should thing is that as soon as you say you should and then you don't then you can fail.

乔·哈德森：我做“应该”的事情的原因是，一旦你说你应该，然后你不这样做，那么你就会失败。

If you fail, then you're less likely to try it again.

如果你失败了，那么你就不太可能再尝试一次。

That's why the should, it ends up usually in stagnation.

这就是为什么应该，它通常会停滞不前。

If you think about the way it feels in your body when you say, I should do something, and there's a stagnation, there's a, hmm.

如果你想一想当你说“我应该做某事”时你身体的感觉，就会有一种停滞，有一种，嗯。

whereas if you say something like, oh, I want to do it, or here's an experiment I can do, or here's what I enjoy, there's less stagnation, there's more movement.

而如果你说，哦，我想做，或者这是我可以做的一个实验，或者这是我喜欢的，那么停滞就会减少，运动就会增加。

Lenny Rachitsky: This touches on something else that you talk a lot about, and we've been circling around this idea of authenticity versus improvement, where you help people realize that you are good as you are, you don't need to necessarily improve.

Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到你经常谈论的其他事情，我们一直围绕着真实性与改进的想法，你帮助人们认识到你本来就很好，你不一定需要改进。

We've talked a lot about these sorts of things already, but just what else can you share there just how to help people learn this?

我们已经讨论了很多此类事情，但是您还能分享什么来帮助人们学习这一点？

Joe Hudson: My favorite metaphor on this one is at what time in the journey of an oak tree is it perfect?

乔·哈德森：我最喜欢的比喻是，在橡树的旅程中，什么时候它是完美的？

Is it when it's an acorn, when it's sprout, when it's 20 years old, 40 years old, 150 years old, 200 years old, depending on the oak tree?

是橡子的时候，发芽的时候，20岁的时候，40岁的时候，150岁的时候，200岁的时候，这取决于橡树？

Now, I'm perfect.

现在，我很完美。

The idea is ridiculous.

这个想法很荒谬。

It's a similar thing for us.

对我们来说也是类似的事情。

The idea that I need to improve myself, it really disturbs the natural process that's at hand, which is we evolve.

我需要提高自己的想法，它确实扰乱了眼前的自然过程，即我们的进化。

We as human beings evolve.

我们作为人类不断进化。

If it's like, oh, I'm evolving and I can enjoy it, and I'm acting from my authenticity, then that has a lot of alacrity.

如果它就像，哦，我正在进步，我可以享受它，并且我根据我的真实性行事，那么那就很敏捷。

That moves quick.

动作很快。

If it's I need to improve, there's something wrong with me, I need to improve, I should do it, that all goes really fucking slow.

如果是我需要改进，我就有问题了，我需要改进，我应该这样做，这一切都进展得非常慢。

Because there's a lot of emotional stagnation in that.

因为这里面有很多情绪上的停滞。

Joe Hudson: There's a lot of should shame.

乔·哈德森：有很多应该感到羞耻的事情。

There's a lot of stagnation in that, and so you don't actually get that natural flow of life.

这其中有很多停滞，所以你实际上并没有获得自然的生命流动。

The Taoist talk about this as kind of like a river always finds its way, it just always goes in that direction.

道家对此的说法就像一条河流总能找到它的出路，它总是朝那个方向流去。

We are naturally evolving.

我们自然地在进化。

That is our nature.

这就是我们的本性。

Then to put a whole bunch of shoulds and shits in the way just slows the process down.

然后，把一大堆“应该”和“狗屎”放在一起只会减慢进程。

The other thing about authenticity that I think is really important too, is that if you are one of the few people, I'd say 10, 15%, who can say, I should be this way, this way, and this way, and then you do it, which is very few people can actually do that.

关于真实性，我认为也非常重要的另一件事是，如果你是少数人之一，我会说10%、15%，谁能说，我应该这样，这样，这样，然后你就这样做，很少有人能真正做到这一点。

What most people do is they say, I should do this, should do that, should do that, and then a decade later, they're still saying they should do the same things.

大多数人所做的是他们说，我应该这样做，应该这样做，应该这样做，然后十年后，他们仍然说他们应该做同样的事情。

Let's say you're one of those really successful people, then you have a life for not you.

假设你是那些真正成功的人之一，那么你的生活就不属于你了。

Then you have a life of who you think you should be, not for who you actually are.

然后你就会过上你认为你应该成为的人的生活，而不是你真正的样子。

Joe Hudson: If you move from authenticity, naturally, certain things aren't going to work, certain things are going to work.

乔·哈德森：如果你远离真实性，自然地，某些事情不会起作用，某些事情却会起作用。

Certain people are going to work, certain people aren't going to work.

有些人会去工作，有些人不会去工作。

Certain jobs are going to work.

某些工作将会发挥作用。

The ones that you end up with over time are going to be the ones that are right for you, not right, for who you think you should be.

随着时间的推移，你最终得到的将是那些适合你的人，而不是适合你认为你应该成为的人的人。

The most obvious of this is you meet a woman and you're like, oh, this is how I should be for them to love me, and you just do it.

最明显的是你遇到一个女人，你会想，哦，这就是我应该如何让他们爱我，你就这么做了。

You just do everything that you think you should do, and then you get married, and then they love not you, they love who you think you should be.

你只是做了你认为你应该做的一切，然后你结婚了，然后他们爱的不是你，而是你认为你应该成为的人。

They don't love who you are.

他们不爱你是谁。

What kind of marriage is that?

那是什么样的婚姻？

As opposed to, this is who I am and I'm going to be as genuine.

相反，这就是我，我会变得真诚。

I'm going to show you all my parts.

我将向你展示我的所有部分。

I'm going to be as genuine as I can with you.

我会尽可能真诚地对待你。

Then if you do get married, you're married to the right person, you're married to the person who actually sees all that and loves that and wants that.

然后，如果你真的结婚了，你就嫁给了正确的人，你嫁给了一个真正看到这一切、热爱那一切、想要那一切的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you hold that idea with I also want to get better, I want to develop myself, I want to feel my emotions more, those sorts of things?

Lenny Rachitsky：你如何看待我也想变得更好，我想发展自己，我想更多地感受我的情绪，诸如此类的事情？

Joe Hudson: I love that I want to, the better part is kind of just, gets a little bit in the way.

乔·哈德森：我喜欢我想要的，更好的部分是有点妨碍。

We all want to, like a little kid wants to run faster.

我们都想，就像小孩子想跑得更快一样。

They might want to be a better runner, but the part that they missed, the reason that they develop so fucking quickly is because they don't think they're going to be a better person if they run faster.

他们可能想成为一名更好的跑步者，但他们错过了部分，他们发展得如此之快的原因是因为他们认为如果他们跑得更快，他们就会成为一个更好的人。

The idea is like, yeah, you have this natural want, that want is the thing that moves evolution.

这个想法就像，是的，你有这种自然的需求，这种需求是推动进化的东西。

A plant is like, "Oh, there's sun.

植物就像是：“哦，有太阳。

I want to move in that direction." As compared to I should.

我想朝这个方向前进。”与我应该的相比。

Both of them are human concepts, but the want, it's the thing that what allows us to know that's our evolutionary path.

两者都是人类的概念，但需求，正是让我们知道那是我们的进化道路的东西。

Oh, I have this want to be closer to people.

哦，我有这个愿望，想与人更亲近。

Oh, I have this want for great sex.

哦，我想要美好的性爱。

Oh, I have this want for being able to have a business that supports me.

哦，我希望能够拥有一家支持我的企业。

Joe Hudson: These are great wants, and they show where the growth is occurring or wants to occur.

Joe Hudson：这些都是伟大的愿望，它们表明增长正在发生或希望发生。

It's like that's our natural evolution.

这就像我们的自然进化。

It's great.

这很棒。

What makes it need to be better?

是什么让它需要变得更好？

I want to be better.

我想变得更好。

It just slows it down instead of, it's like saying that what I am is broken and therefore, the whole thing slows down.

它只是减慢了速度，而不是说，我的存在已经被打破了，因此，整个事情都减慢了。

We try to word everything as more in the experimental framework, but also, we try to word everything as self-awareness, self-experimentation, self-discovery, instead of self-improvement.

我们试图将一切都表述为“更多”在实验框架中，但同时，我们也试图将一切表述为“自我意识”、“自我实验”、“自我发现”，而不是“自我完善”。

Because if you understand the problem, then the problem goes away.

因为如果你理解了问题，那么问题就会消失。

Just explore it.

探索一下吧。

Just understand it as compared to making a list of things that you should do to get better, that you will eventually fail and then you'll just be stuck in this should loop where you beat yourself up and where most people hang out a lot.

只要理解它，与列出你应该做的事情清单来变得更好，你最终会失败，然后你就会陷入这个应该循环，你会打败自己，大多数人会经常闲逛。

Lenny Rachitsky: The experiment here that I'm taking away is think more about your want versus the should, and then things you think you need is okay.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在这里进行的实验是更多地考虑你想要的和应该的，然后你认为你需要的东西就可以了。

Joe Hudson: Because typically, when you say, I want to improve, it means the subtext in that is once I do X, Y, and Z, then I'm lovable.

Joe Hudson：因为通常，当你说“我想改进”时，潜台词的意思是，一旦我做到了 X、Y 和 Z，那么我就会变得可爱。

Once I do X, Y and Z, then I'm okay.

一旦我完成了 X、Y 和 Z，那么我就没事了。

Once I do X, Y and Z, I'll be worthy.

一旦我做到了 X、Y 和 Z，我就值得了。

Once I do X, Y and Z, I'll be enlightened, whatever the fuck, the thing is.

一旦我做了 X、Y 和 Z，我就会恍然大悟，不管这是什么鬼东西。

That's just not how it works.

事实并非如此。

What works is the person who loves themselves has loving relationships.

有效的是爱自己的人拥有充满爱的关系。

It's not the person who's done X, Y, and Z so that they can be lovable, has loving relationships.

并不是一个人做了X、Y、Z，这样他们才能变得可爱，拥有充满爱的关系。

The people who do X, Y and Z, so they can be lovable have relationships where people are critical and constantly telling them that they have to be better.

那些做了 X、Y 和 Z 的人，因此他们可以变得可爱，他们的人际关系中人们会批评他们，并不断告诉他们必须做得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back, you just said this interesting quote that you also shared at the beginning.

Lenny Rachitsky：回来了，你刚刚说了这句有趣的话，你在开头也分享过。

This idea, once we understand the problem, it goes away.

一旦我们理解了问题，这个想法就会消失。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's make sure people understand what that means.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们确保人们理解这意味着什么。

Is it related to this idea once you feel like I'm an asshole, okay, and then like, oh, okay, and then it starts to kind of away, is that the core?

一旦你觉得我是个混蛋，好吧，然后就像，哦，好吧，然后它开始有点消失，这是否与这个想法有关，这是核心吗？

Joe Hudson: I just mean practically.

乔·哈德森：我只是说实际上。

It's like, can you really fully understand a problem if you don't understand the solution to it?

就像，如果你不理解问题的解决方案，你真的能完全理解问题吗？

There's a principle, and I can't remember the name of it, like it's Strickland principle or something.

有一个原则，但我不记得它的名字了，比如斯特里克兰原则什么的。

It's something that this CFO that I used to work with said, and he would say, "Problems get solved if you spend time on them.

这是我曾经共事过的这位首席财务官说过的话，他会说：“如果你花时间解决问题，问题就会得到解决。

If you just give enough attention to a problem, the problem will solve." That's the way it works in business.

如果你对一个问题给予足够的关注，问题就会解决。”这就是商业运作的方式。

An unsolvable problem, obviously, it's not going to work that way.

这是一个无法解决的问题，显然，这样是行不通的。

The reason that, that works is because the more you spend time on a problem, the more you understand it.

之所以有效，是因为你在一个问题上花的时间越多，你对它的理解就越多。

Joe Hudson: Another one, love him or hate him, one of the things that Elon Musk has said that I found it very valuable in my time, is that if you really want to interview somebody and they claim that they've done something, you ask them six levels down.

乔·哈德森：另一件事，无论爱他还是恨他，埃隆·马斯克说过的一件事我觉得在我的时代非常有价值，那就是如果你真的想采访某人并且他们声称他们做了某事，你可以向他们低六级询问。

You improved sales.

您提高了销售额。

How did you do that, exactly?

你到底是怎么做到的？

Well, we improved the pipeline.

好吧，我们改进了管道。

How'd you do that, exactly?

你到底是怎么做到的？

Oh, well, we made the pipeline more measurable by having things that could be.

哦，好吧，我们通过拥有可能的东西使管道变得更可衡量。

How did you know?

你怎么知道的？

What were the seven stages of the pipeline and what made you pick them?

管道的七个阶段是什么？是什么促使您选择它们​​？

You go six levels down and you can really understand if somebody was the person who solved the problem or if they're the person who is claiming that they solved the problem.

你往下走六层，你就可以真正了解某人是否是解决问题的人，或者他们是否是声称他们解决了问题的人。

It's the same thing.

这是同样的事情。

Joe Hudson: If we just explore a problem enough, the solution is apparent.

Joe Hudson：如果我们对问题进行足够的探索，解决方案是显而易见的。

If we understand the problem enough, the solution is apparent.

如果我们足够理解这个问题，解决方案就显而易见了。

Typically, if we come to a problem with a kid's mind, wonder, if we come to it, what could I learn here?

通常，如果我们遇到一个孩子的思想问题，我们会想，如果我们遇到这个问题，我能在这里学到什么？

What's exciting?

有什么令人兴奋的？

What are the experiments I can run?

我可以进行哪些实验？

Then typically, that's the most efficient way, enjoyable way to solve a problem as compared to, I have to get to this problem by this time and we're going to do it this way.

通常情况下，这是解决问题的最有效、最愉快的方式，相比之下，我必须在这个时候解决这个问题，我们将这样做。

Usually, that doesn't work.

通常，这是行不通的。

I could geek out on why that lets democracies win over autocracies because they're far more experimental by nature, and it's not one person saying how things are going, but just generally, just we're more efficient when we're exploring.

我可以搞清楚为什么民主国家能够战胜独裁国家，因为民主国家本质上更具实验性，而且不是一个人可以告诉我们事情进展如何，但总的来说，只是我们在探索时更有效率。

We're more efficient when we're exploring ourselves and understanding ourselves and trying to improve ourselves.

当我们探索自己、了解自己并努力提高自己时，我们的效率就会更高。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple of more experiments I want to help people try to run.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还想帮助人们尝试进行更多实验。

One is you have some really good advice around decision-making and how emotions and getting better at understanding and working with your emotions helps you make better decisions.

一是您在决策方面有一些非常好的建议，以及情绪以及更好地理解和处理情绪如何帮助您做出更好的决策。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Joe Hudson: That's similar to what I said before, which is if you learn to fall in love with the emotional experiences, then you have more solution sets.

Joe Hudson：这和我之前说的类似，如果你学会爱上情感体验，那么你就有更多的解决方案。

Let's say I want to have all human beings, I want to be a part of a great team.

假设我想拥有全人类，我想成为一个伟大团队的一部分。

Nobody has ever raised their hand and said, "I'd like to be a part of a team." Yet, grand majority of people at their work right now have shitty teams or not A teams, not great teams, even though nobody wants that.

从来没有人举手说：“我想成为团队的一员。”然而，现在工作中的绝大多数人都拥有糟糕的团队，或者不是一流的团队，不是伟大的团队，尽管没有人愿意这样。

If one of the things you're unwilling to feel is that conflict, that tension, as we talked about if you're conflict avoidant, you're not going to be able to make an A team because there's nothing that is alive doesn't require tension.

如果你不愿意感受到的一件事就是冲突、紧张，就像我们谈到的，如果你回避冲突，你就无法成为一支一流的团队，因为没有什么是不需要紧张的。

A cell requires tension.

细胞需要张力。

Breathing requires tension.

呼吸需要紧张。

Playing pickleball requires tension.

打泡菜球需要紧张。

A good team requires tension.

一个好的团队需要有张力。

If you're going to avoid that experience, you're not going to be as easily, if at all, be able to create a quality team.

如果你想避免这种经历，你就不可能那么容易（如果有的话）创建一支高素质的团队。

Joe Hudson: To be able to look forward to any emotional experience, creates more and more solution sets for more and more optionality.

Joe Hudson：为了能够期待任何情感体验，需要创建越来越多的解决方案集，以提供越来越多的选择。

In creating a great team, for instance, you need to be good with people hating you.

例如，在创建一支优秀的团队时，你需要善待那些讨厌你的人。

You need to be good with drawing boundaries and having people upset.

你需要善于划定界限并让人们感到不安。

You need to be able to have high expectations.

您需要能够抱有很高的期望。

You have to be okay with somebody being disappointed with themselves.

你必须接受有人对自己感到失望。

You have to be okay being disappointed with yourself.

你必须接受对自己失望。

All these emotional experiences have to be available to you if you're going to find the solutions to make an A quality team.

如果您想找到打造一流团队的解决方案，那么所有这些情感体验都必须为您提供。

The more you can fall in love with each emotional experience, the more you have and then the clearer the decision making gets.

你越能爱上每一种情感体验，你拥有的就越多，然后做出的决定就越清晰。

That's one thing for making great decisions.

这是做出重大决定的一回事。

The other one that I find really, really useful and very hard to execute on until you really understand it is creating a set of principles to live by.

我发现另一个非常非常有用且很难执行的方法，除非你真正理解它，那就是创建一套生活原则。

Joe Hudson: We all have a set of principles to live by that we're doing it.

Joe Hudson：我们都有一套我们正在做的生活原则。

For a lot of people, those principles are what do I have to do to get likes on Facebook?

对于很多人来说，这些原则是我必须做什么才能在 Facebook 上获得点赞？

I'm going to make a decision based on getting likes on Facebook.

我将根据 Facebook 上的点赞情况做出决定。

I'm going to make decisions based on whatever it is.

我将根据情况做出决定。

Pretending that I want to get wealthy or trying to get wealthy or there's a series of things.

假装我想变得富有或者试图变得富有或者有一系列的事情。

If you really take a look at what it is you're making your decisions on and then really think about, well, what would be the five or six things that if I made decisions with these principles, I'm guaranteed success?

如果你真正看看你正在做的决定是什么，然后认真思考，那么，如果我按照这些原则做出决定，我保证成功的五到六件事是什么？

Then experiment with them and then refine those principles and then experiment with them.

然后进行实验，然后完善这些原则，然后进行实验。

Then there'll be these moments where you don't want to do it, but those are your principles, so you're going to go and do it.

然后会有一些时刻你不想这样做，但这些是你的原则，所以你会去做。

Joe Hudson: As an example for this, one of the principles that I live by is embrace intensity.

乔·哈德森：举个例子，我所遵循的原则之一就是拥抱强度。

It's not create intensity, it's embrace intensity.

这不是创造强度，而是拥抱强度。

It means that right now, any moment in my body, for instance, there's going to be a sensation that's more intense.

这意味着现在，例如，我身体的任何时刻，都会有一种更强烈的感觉。

How do I welcome that sensation?

我如何欢迎这种感觉？

At any moment in running my business, there's going to be something that we don't want to talk about.

在经营我的业务的任何时刻，都会有一些我们不想谈论的事情。

How do we lean in and talk about that?

我们如何深入讨论这个问题？

We start all of our meetings with what are you scared to say in our business?

我们所有的会议都以您在我们的业务中害怕说什么？

What are you scared to say?

你害怕说什么？

Not all of our meetings, but some of our meetings are started with what are you scared to say?

并非我们所有的会议，但我们的一些会议都是以您害怕说的话开始的？

Because we want to embrace that intensity because we know that if we lean into the thing that we're trying to avoid, our life is going to get better, our business is going to get better.

因为我们想要接受这种强度，因为我们知道，如果我们倾向于我们试图避免的事情，我们的生活就会变得更好，我们的生意就会变得更好。

Joe Hudson: If you can see what those principles are for you, and then run experiments to see if they work and then refine them every once in a while.

Joe Hudson：如果你能看到这些原则对你来说意味着什么，然后进行实验，看看它们是否有效，然后每隔一段时间改进它们。

Because of that embrace intensity, if somebody comes to me and says, "You're fucking up this business.

由于这种拥抱强度，如果有人来找我说：“你把这件事搞砸了。

You're doing it all wrong." I don't have to think about what I'm going to do.

你做的这一切都是错的。”我不必考虑我要做什么。

I'm like, "Oh, cool.

我想，“哦，酷。

Tell me what I'm missing." It's going to be immediate because I live this way.

告诉我我错过了什么。”这会是立竿见影的，因为我就是这样生活的。

Maybe I don't want to hear it.

也许我不想听。

Maybe I'm having a bad day.

也许我今天过得很糟糕。

Whatever it is.

不管是什么。

Maybe I'll say, "Hey, I want hear you give me, I'm not able to, give me a day and I'll come back to you." all of a sudden, my decisions get made automatically if I live by a set of principles and very effective, I find very effective living by a set of principles

也许我会说，“嘿，我想听你给我，但我做不到，给我一天的时间，我会回到你身边。”突然之间，如果我按照一套原则生活并且非常有效，我的决定就会自动做出，我发现按照一套原则生活非常有效

Lenny Rachitsky: For someone that wants to create their own set of principles.

Lenny Rachitsky：适合那些想要创建自己的一套原则的人。

Is there a guide you have?

你有向导吗？

Is there any advice for how to actually go about starting this list, putting it together?

对于如何真正开始这份清单并将其放在一起，有什么建议吗？

Joe Hudson: We have a decisions course, which is a large part of it is about how to do that.

Joe Hudson：我们有一门决策课程，其中很大一部分是关于如何做到这一点。

It's a difficult one to explain because there's a lot of nuance in it.

这是一个很难解释的问题，因为其中有很多细微差别。

Just as for instance, one of the nuances is defining the principles, not just by what it is, but what it isn't is a really significant, very minor thing, but it ends up being incredibly major.

举例来说，其中一个细微差别是定义原则，不仅仅是根据它是什么，而是根据它不是什么，这是一件非常重要的、非常次要的事情，但它最终却变得非常重要。

If you're going to do your set of principles and you want to do them on your own, the main thing I would say is keep it to five.

如果你要执行你的一套原则并且你想自己执行它们，我想说的主要是将其保持在五个。

I wouldn't even do six.

我什至都不会做六个。

I don't do six, but I keep it to five.

我不做六个，但我把它保持在五个。

I would test each one of them for five days.

我会对其中每一项进行为期五天的测试。

Joe Hudson: Make your principle and then see if it works for you for five days and then keep on experimenting until you find five.

乔·哈德森：制定你的原则，然后看看它是否对你有效五天，然后继续实验，直到找到五天。

When you look at those five and you say, "If I do that, if I live by those principles, I am just almost a hundred, if not a hundred percent confident that, that's going to create the life I want if I live by those principles." Then you have a really good start and make them simple.

当你看着这五个原则时，你会说：“如果我这样做，如果我遵循这些原则生活，我几乎有一百％（如果不是百分百）相信，如果我遵循这些原则生活，那将创造我想要的生活。”然后你就有了一个非常好的开始并使它们变得简单。

Mine are things like embrace intensity or connection first or everything is in iteration.

我的想法是拥抱强度或联系优先或一切都在迭代。

As soon as I live by them, things work, company works.

一旦我按照它们生活，事情就会运转，公司就会运转。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We'll point folks to that course if they want to take it themselves.

如果人们想自己学习，我们会向他们推荐该课程。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Joe Hudson: It's only once a year, so it's a rare one.

Joe Hudson：一年只有一次，所以很罕见。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。

When is the next one?

下一场是什么时候？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Not too far away for folks to want to wait.

距离不太远，人们不想等待。

Again, the two pieces of advice you shared, and that's our experiments that we can run to help become better decision makers.

同样，您分享的两条建议也是我们可以进行的实验，可以帮助我们成为更好的决策者。

One is create a list of life principles, and there's a course that will point people to, to take that.

一是列出一份生活原则清单，并且有一门课程可以指导人们学习这些原则。

The other is the thing you keep coming back to over and over and over, this idea of falling in love with your emotions, embracing your emotions, welcoming your emotions.

另一个是你一遍又一遍地回想起的事情，就是爱上你的情绪、拥抱你的情绪、欢迎你的情绪的想法。

There's also, I know you do a lot of work with teams.

还有，我知道你做了很多团队工作。

I imagine there's very similar advice for how to help your team be more effective.

我想对于如何帮助您的团队提高效率也有非常相似的建议。

Principles, I imagine is a part of it, falling in love.

我想原则是其中的一部分，坠入爱河。

Joe Hudson: We've run principles for teams, yeah.

Joe Hudson：我们已经为团队制定了原则，是的。

That's one of them.

这是其中之一。

Teams would be more effective.

团队会更有效率。

We have a lot of, I mean I think I have, at this point, I have 12 things that I'll go into a company and do with a company.

我们有很多，我的意思是我想我有，在这一点上，我有 12 件事我将进入一家公司并与一家公司一起做。

Typically, the way I like to do it is I will go in and I'll talk to the leader typically and they'll say, "This is what I want." Then I really want to assess.

通常，我喜欢的方式是我会进去并与领导者交谈，他们会说：“这就是我想要的。”那我真想评价一下。

Typically, if the person who is a big part of creating the problem has a hard time seeing the way through the problem, or it wouldn't have been created generally.

通常情况下，如果问题的主要制造者很难找到解决问题的方法，或者问题通常不会被创建。

This is not demeaning any leader, we all have these issues.

这并不是贬低任何领导人，我们都有这些问题。

Usually, what I like to do is I like to go in and I like to talk to three or four people, see what their perspective, not just the leader's perspective.

通常，我喜欢做的是我喜欢进去，我喜欢和三四个人交谈，看看他们的观点是什么，而不仅仅是领导者的观点。

Joe Hudson: Then I like to sit in a meeting or two and just see actually what the dynamic is.

Joe Hudson：然后我喜欢参加一两次会议，看看实际情况如何。

One of the things I like to say about how to change a company is that the atomic structure of a company is the meetings and the decisions.

关于如何改变一家公司，我想说的一件事是，公司的原子结构就是会议和决策。

It's particularly true in Silicon Valley, but it's really true in all businesses that all we are as a company is a group of people's relationships and ideas.

在硅谷尤其如此，但在所有企业中确实如此，我们作为一家公司就是一群人的关系和想法。

Especially, like Amazon, you got a couple of buildings and some servers.

特别是，像亚马逊一样，你有几栋建筑物和一些服务器。

There's not a lot of hardware there, and they wouldn't be useful without the people anyways.

那里没有很多硬件，如果没有人，它们就没有用处。

Anybody, whether you're running a farm or a shoe factory or anybody's successful is going to tell you it's all about the people.

任何人，无论你经营的是农场、鞋厂，还是任何成功人士，都会告诉你，一切都与人有关。

The atomic structure is what are our meetings like and how do we make decisions?

原子结构是我们的会议是什么样的以及我们如何做出决策？

I'll just really pay attention to a meeting.

我会认真地参加一个会议。

One of the things we do is we talk about what we call five-star meetings, which is how do you make every meeting enjoyable?

我们做的一件事就是我们谈论所谓的五星级会议，也就是如何让每次会议都变得愉快？

Joe Hudson: Literally, how is it that everybody when they walk out of a meeting, they're like, oh, fuck, that was great?

Joe Hudson：从字面上看，当每个人离开会议时，他们都会说，哦，操，这太棒了？

It turns out, we've all been in meetings that are hard as shit, and we've walked out and gone, oh, those are great meetings.

事实证明，我们都参加过像狗屎一样艰难的会议，然后我们走出去，哦，那些都是很棒的会议。

We've all been in meetings where nothing happens and we're like, "Oh, God.

我们都曾参加过没有任何反应的会议，我们会说：“哦，上帝。

Fuck, another one to just drive a nail through my head.

妈的，又是一个把钉子钉进我脑袋的事。

I don't want to sit there." What's required to make one of your meetings five stars?

我不想坐在那里。”要使您的一次会议成为五星级，需要什么条件？

If you do that, that's one of the things we'll do inside of a company is work with them to figure that out.

如果你这样做，我们在公司内部要做的事情之一就是与他们合作解决这个问题。

If you do that, every single problem with your company will come to the surface.

如果你这样做，你公司的每个问题都会浮出水面。

Every single one of them.

他们每一个。

I had ten five -tar meetings, but these two meetings sucked.

我举行了十次五焦会议，但这两次会议很糟糕。

That tells me exactly where we need to focus as a company.

这准确地告诉了我作为一家公司我们需要关注的重点。

Joe Hudson: That tells me exactly where to look for the problem that's happening.

Joe Hudson：这准确地告诉我在哪里寻找正在发生的问题。

It's the same thing with decisions.

决策也是如此。

If you really start unpacking how the decisions are made where people are frustrated in the decision-making process, you're going to find exactly the problems in the company.

如果你真正开始了解人们在决策过程中感到沮丧的情况下决策是如何制定的，你就会准确地发现公司的问题所在。

An example of this, I was working with a friend and he's a content person, and we were just talking about how do you make every one of your meetings a five-star meeting?

举个例子，我和一位朋友一起工作，他是一个知足的人，我们只是在讨论如何使每次会议都成为五星级会议？

He's like, "Okay, great." He's like, "Yeah, I'm never going to do this." I was like, "Really?

他说：“好吧，太棒了。”他说：“是的，我永远不会这样做。”我当时想，“真的吗？

Tell me why." He's, "My YouTube meetings fucking suck." That's not where he makes most of his money, but these YouTube meetings suck.

告诉我为什么。”他说，“我的 YouTube 会议真他妈糟糕。”这不是他赚大钱的地方，但这些 YouTube 会议很糟糕。

They're never going to get better.

他们永远不会变得更好。

Joe Hudson: Luckily, there's a couple other people around at the time and everyone's like, "No, wait, I love my YouTube meetings.

Joe Hudson：幸运的是，当时周围还有其他几个人，每个人都说，“不，等等，我喜欢我的 YouTube 会议。

What do you mean?

你什么意思？

How could this not work for you?" He noticed, oh, the team didn't, the content, none of it was working for him.

这怎么可能对你不起作用呢？”他注意到，哦，团队没有，内容没有对他有用。

None of it was him.

没有一个是他。

He was just like, "Ugh." He changed it.

他只是说，“呃。”他改变了它。

He was like, "Okay, I'm going to commit to that.

他说：“好吧，我会承诺这一点。

I'm going to see what it's like for me to just say every one of my YouTube meetings have to be something that's super enjoyable to me." When he did it, his YouTube numbers went off the charts in a very short period of time.

我要看看如果我说我的每一次 YouTube 会议都必须让我感到非常愉快，那会是什么样子。”当他这样做时，他的 YouTube 数字在很短的时间内就突破了排行榜。

It's just that common.

就是这么常见。

Wherever the meeting is that sucks, it means there's something else that's a problem that needs to be worked on.

无论会议哪里糟糕，都意味着还有其他问题需要解决。

That's typically how.

通常就是这样。

I can just look at, usually sit in any team meeting and see at least three or four of the major problems that are happening in the company.

我通常可以参加任何团队会议，看到公司中发生的至少三到四个主要问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a cool way of thinking about where to focus decision-making meetings.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种很酷的思考决策会议重点的方式。

I love that the story comes back to something you shared earlier with the more you enjoy something, the more joy there is, the better it's going to go anyway.

我喜欢这个故事回到你之前分享的东西，你越喜欢某件事，越快乐，无论如何，它就会越好。

The more you can find those moments and make things enjoyable, the better.

你越能找到这些时刻并使事情变得愉快就越好。

Joe Hudson: The other cool thing is most of the executives or the CEOs that I've worked with, when they get to a point, and it usually takes them like, we always have the goal of a month, it usually takes two months to make sure every one of their meetings is five-star meetings.

乔·哈德森：另一件很酷的事情是，我共事过的大多数高管或首席执行官，当他们达到某个点时，通常需要他们这样的时间，我们总是有一个月的目标，通常需要两个月的时间才能确保他们的每一次会议都是五星级会议。

Once they've done that, then it's like, how do you make sure all of your teams have five-star meetings?

一旦他们做到了这一点，那么你如何确保所有团队都有五星级的会议？

Usually, it's like within two months and they usually have half the amount of meetings at the end of it.

通常情况下，这会在两个月内完成，而结束时他们的会议数量通常会减少一半。

Half the amount of meetings in their companies are more effective.

他们公司里一半的会议效率更高。

It's an incredible tool.

这是一个令人难以置信的工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why people enjoy that if you were meeting as well.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你也参加会议，我就能明白为什么人们会喜欢这样。

Is there anything more along those lines before we start to close out our conversation, either around teams or decision-making?

在我们开始结束对话之前，还有其他关于团队或决策方面的内容吗？

Joe Hudson: I'll say for anybody who's running a team, Harvard has got a couple of these, but we used to do these tiny pulses.

乔·哈德森：我想说，对于任何管理团队的人来说，哈佛都有一些这样的东西，但我们过去常常做这些微小的脉冲。

As a VC, one of the strategies that was really effective that I saw very few VCs doing was I would want these pulse, I would like to read the pulse of teams with these short surveys and stuff.

作为一名风险投资人，我看到很少有风险投资人在做的真正有效的策略之一是我想要这些脉搏，我想通过这些简短的调查和其他东西来了解团队的脉搏。

It was the most effective way of not very happy, didn't want to come to work on Monday.

这是周一不太高兴、不想上班的最有效方法。

They weren't going to make their numbers.

他们不会达到他们的数字。

The likelihood of them making their numbers is going down.

他们取得成功的可能性正在下降。

There was this interesting thing that just about how Drucker, I think said it first and then the Virgin guy.

有一件有趣的事情是关于德鲁克，我认为首先是这样说的，然后是维珍人。

Joe Hudson: Branson said it.

乔·哈德森：布兰森说过。

He's like, "Culture eats strategy for breakfast," or some such.

他说，“文化把战略当作早餐”，或者类似的话。

If that's true, then it's measurable and it can be a leading indicator, and it absolutely is.

如果这是真的，那么它就是可衡量的，并且可以成为领先指标，而且确实如此。

If you really pay attention to the culture on a team-by-team basis, it's an amazing, very effective way to drive results, but also, a very effective way to know when bad results are coming.

如果你真正关注每个团队的文化，那么这是一种令人惊奇且非常有效的推动结果的方法，而且也是一种了解不良结果何时到来的非常有效的方法。

What's interesting to me is most people feel like they can't control the culture, like most people feel like.

对我来说有趣的是，大多数人感觉他们无法控制文化，就像大多数人的感觉一样。

Joe Hudson: Most people, I notice, they feel like, it's more likely for me to hear from a CEO, "God damn it, everybody agrees when I get out of the table.

乔·哈德森：我注意到，大多数人都觉得，我更有可能听到首席执行官说：“该死的，当我离开谈判桌时，每个人都同意。

When I get off the table, everyone's like, yeah, we're going to do it.

当我离开谈判桌时，每个人都会说，是的，我们会这么做。

Then they don't do it.

然后他们就不这么做了。

Why aren't they doing it?" I'm going to hear that more often than I'm going to hear a CEO say, "Oh, wow.

他们为什么不这样做？”我听到这样的话的次数比听到首席执行官说“哦，哇。

I really noticed that the way the email system was working in our company, we were disempowering people by not requiring an action after every..." I'm going to hear more complaints about why shit isn't working than I'm going to hear about strategies, like very gentle, simple strategies to change the culture.

我确实注意到我们公司电子邮件系统的工作方式，我们在每次之后都不要求采取行动，从而剥夺了人们的权力。”我会听到更多关于为什么狗屎不起作用的抱怨，而不是听到策略，比如非常温和、简单的改变文化的策略。

it's an amazing thing to me that it's so powerful and yet people feel so out of control with it

对我来说这是一件令人惊奇的事情，它如此强大，但人们却感觉它如此失控

Lenny Rachitsky: To give people something they can do, say today or tomorrow to work on a lot of these things we've been talking about.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了给人们一些他们可以做的事情，比如今天或明天去做我们一直在谈论的很多事情。

Is there just one thing you recommend that basically everyone should try to experiment with in the next day, couple of days or weeks, just to help them be better and more successful and happier?

您是否建议基本上每个人都应该在第二天、几天或几周内尝试一件事，以帮助他们变得更好、更成功、更快乐？

Joe Hudson: I would do seven minutes, no less than seven minutes.

乔·哈德森：我会做七分钟，不少于七分钟。

You can do more than seven minutes.

你可以做七分钟以上。

Seven minutes of gratitude with another person every day.

每天与另一个人表达七分钟的感激之情。

It can't be, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for this.

不可能，我为此感激，我为此感激，我为此感激。

It has to be feeling the gratitude and then seeing what comes out of your mouth when you're coming from the felt sense of gratitude and doing it back and forth.

它必须是感受到感激之情，然后当你从感受到的感激之情中醒来并来回这样做时，看看你嘴里说了什么。

You're savoring the experience of gratitude and you're going back and forth with another human being.

你正在享受感恩的体验，并且你正在与另一个人来回交往。

Call mom, dad, sister, brother, business partner, friend, and every day just express gratitude back and forth for seven minutes, coming from the feeling, not from the thought.

给妈妈、爸爸、姐妹、兄弟、商业伙伴、朋友打电话，每天花七分钟来回表达感激之情，来自感觉，而不是来自想法。

If you have a full body sensation of gratitude and you experience that for seven minutes a day, it'll change your life dramatically really quickly.

如果你有一种全身心的感激之情，并且每天体验七分钟，它会很快地极大地改变你的生活。

Really, really quickly.

真的，真的很快。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I already feel it.

我已经感觉到了。

The practice is you are expressing gratitude to the person you're with.

这种做法是你向与你在一起的人表达感激之情。

Joe Hudson: It can be gratitude for anything in your life.

乔·哈德森：这可以是对生活中任何事情的感激之情。

As a matter of fact, I would say do it for a couple of weeks and then do it on the places where you feel lack.

事实上，我会说先做几个星期，然后再做你感觉不足的地方。

That's where the superpower comes in.

这就是超级大国的用武之地。

In my own personal life, I was meditating.

在我自己的个人生活中，我一直在冥想。

I spent seven, eight hours a day meditating for years.

多年来我每天花七、八个小时冥想。

Joe Hudson: You can imagine, I didn't have a lot of money.

乔·哈德森：你可以想象，我没有很多钱。

The joke I used to make is I would meditate and worry about money most of my day.

我过去常开的玩笑是，我一天中的大部分时间都会冥想并担心金钱。

It's funny, but it's truth.

这很有趣，但却是事实。

One day, I was thinking about money and thinking I was driving in my car and I was thinking about this billionaire I knew and I was thinking about how I didn't have enough and then I thought, "Oh, this billionaire doesn't think they have enough either.

有一天，我想着钱，想着我正在开车，想着我认识的这位亿万富翁，想着我怎么没有足够的钱，然后我想，“哦，这个亿万富翁也不认为他们有足够的钱。

I know I'm well enough." I'm like, "Oh, I have the experience of a billionaire right now." I was like, "He's probably driving in a car somewhere thinking he doesn't have enough, and I'm driving in a car somewhere thinking I don't have enough.

我知道我已经足够好了。”我想，“哦，我现在有亿万富翁的经历了。”我当时想，“他可能开着车去某个地方，认为他没有足够的东西，而我开着车去某个地方，认为我没有足够的东西。

This is great.

这太棒了。

I'm a billionaire."

我是亿万富翁。”

Joe Hudson: It tickled me, the idea tickled me.

乔·哈德森：这让我很高兴，这个想法让我很高兴。

Then I was like, well, what happens if I start focusing on everything I do have instead of focusing on what I don't have?

然后我想，好吧，如果我开始关注我拥有的一切而不是关注我没有的东西，会发生什么？

Which is where the gratitude practice came from.

这就是感恩实践的由来。

My wife and I would sit every day and just be grateful for all the physical stuff that we had.

我和我的妻子每天都会坐着，对我们拥有的所有物质表示感激。

We were living in a hobble, were living 15-year-old year cars.

我们生活在困境中，生活在15岁的汽车里。

We had no money.

我们没有钱。

I was in debt.

我负债累累。

I was in, I think $40,000 in credit card debt or some crazy shit.

我想我欠了 40,000 美元的信用卡债务或者一些疯狂的东西。

We just did it.

我们刚刚做到了。

Literally, was it three months later, my credit card debt was gone.

从字面上看，三个月后，我的信用卡债务就消失了。

Six months later, I had $60,000 in the bank.

六个月后，我的银行存款达到了 60,000 美元。

Entire life changed because I no longer defined myself by somebody who didn't have, I defined myself as somebody who did have.

整个生活都改变了，因为我不再用一个没有的人来定义自己，我把自己定义为一个有的人。

All of a sudden, I could look out the window and it wasn't, "Oh, shit, I can't have that.

突然间，我向窗外望去，却发现不是，“哦，该死，我不能这样。

I can't have that.

我不能这样。

I can't have that."

我不能这样。”

Joe Hudson: I look out the window, I'd say somebody made money on that.

Joe Hudson：我看着窗外，我想说有人靠这个赚了钱。

Somebody made money on that.

有人靠这个赚了钱。

Every fucking thing I looked at, somebody made money on.

我看到的每一个他妈的东西，都有人赚钱。

20 people, 20 companies made money on the fucking lamppost.

20个人、20家公司靠这该死的灯柱赚钱了。

The person who installed it, the energy company, the rubber company, there's just, holy crap, it's all over the place.

安装它的人、能源公司、橡胶公司，天啊，到处都是。

Then in that definition, all of a sudden, it became really clear.

然后在这个定义中，突然之间，它变得非常清晰。

It doesn't matter if the thing that you feel like you lack is time, or the thing that you feel like you lack is love or the thing that you feel like you lack is money.

如果你觉得自己缺少的是时间，或者你觉得自己缺少的是爱，或者你觉得缺少的是金钱，都没关系。

If you can really do a gratitude practice on the thing that you lack, there's a superpower in that one, changes everything.

如果你真的能对你所缺乏的东西进行感恩练习，那么它就有一种超能力，可以改变一切。

Joe Hudson: I do gratitude, yes.

乔·哈德森：是的，我很感激。

Do I do gratitude on stuff I lack?

我对我所缺乏的东西表示感激吗？

I don't really have an experience of lack.

我确实没有缺乏的经历。

That's not really...

这其实不是...

Lenny Rachitsky: You still do this gratitude, seven minutes?

Lenny Rachitsky：你还在做这种感激之情，七分钟吗？

Joe Hudson: Of course, yes.

乔·哈德森：当然，是的。

That's like asking if I still have sex.

这就像问我是否还有性行为一样。

Why would I give that up?

我为什么要放弃那个？

It feels great.

感觉很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to be clear, you find someone seven minutes every morning, probably think about things you're grateful for and share back.

Lenny Rachitsky：需要明确的是，你每天早上都会花七分钟时间，思考一下你感激的事情并分享回来。

Focus not on your intellectual thing you're grateful for, but just what's coming out of your emotional body.

不要关注你所感激的智力事物，而是关注从你的情感体中产生的东西。

Joe Hudson: Let the feeling of gratitude speak rather than your mind, so that you get the felt sense of it.

乔·哈德森：让感恩的感觉而不是你的想法来表达，这样你就能感受到它的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Joe, I'm incredibly grateful for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：乔，我非常感谢你。

I really appreciate you sharing so many experiments for people to run.

我真的很感谢你分享了这么多实验供人们运行。

I think this is going to make a real impact on a lot of people's lives.

我认为这将对很多人的生活产生真正的影响。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find your courses?

人们在哪里可以找到您的课程？

I know you have a podcast.

我知道你有一个播客。

Where can folks find the stuff they do online, and then how can listeners be useful to you?

人们在哪里可以找到他们在网上做的事情，那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Joe Hudson: First of all, Art of Accomplishment, the podcast, it's Art of Accomplishment with Brett Kistler and Joe Hudson, I think.

乔·哈德森：首先，播客《成就的艺术》，我认为是布雷特·基斯特勒和乔·哈德森的《成就的艺术》。

Then Art of Accomplishment, the website will show you where all the courses are.

然后是Art of Accomplishment，该网站将向您显示所有课程的位置。

It'll give you a whole bunch of experiments you can run.

它会给你一大堆可以运行的实验。

There's all sorts of really great information there.

那里有各种各样非常有用的信息。

The other thing that we just mentioned also is just that we really want to make sure that you think that the courses are for you.

我们刚才提到的另一件事是，我们真的想确保您认为这些课程适合您。

The way we do courses is that it's a very felt experience thing.

我们开设课程的方式是，这是一种非常有感觉的体验。

It's not intellectual at all.

这根本不是智力问题。

It's really in your body.

它确实在你的身体里。

The way we like doing it is that you bring real problems that you're having and you use the tools that we teach you.

我们喜欢这样做的方式是，您提出自己遇到的实际问题，并使用我们教您的工具。

The foundational course for that is called the Connection Course.

其基础课程称为连接课程。

If you want to get into it, go to the Connection Course.

如果您想深入了解，请参加连接课程。

Joe Hudson: To find out if it's right for you, if you're not already know that it's right for you, we do these little hour and a half free workshops and it'll give you a taste of what it is that we do because it's like anything that's going on out there.

Joe Hudson：为了了解它是否适​​合您，如果您还不知道它是否适合您，我们会举办这些为期一个半小时的免费研讨会，它会让您体验我们所做的事情，因为它就像外面发生的任何事情一样。

It's people doing, they're like, "What the hell was that?" It's just a completely different thing.

这是人们在做的，他们会说，“那到底是什么？”这是完全不同的事情。

It's not like learning in the normal way.

这不像正常的学习方式。

You literally sit down with another person and run experiments face-to-face with how you're being in the moment.

你实际上是和另一个人坐下来，面对面地对你当下的状态进行实验。

You learn all this stuff through direct experimentation.

你可以通过直接实验来学习所有这些东西。

If you find out it's right for you, you can do it through these workshops, and I'm sure there'll be a place where they can find out where to go for that.

如果你发现它适合你，你可以通过这些研讨会来做到这一点，我相信会有一个地方他们可以找到去哪里。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's one coming up in September, I believe.

Lenny Rachitsky：我相信九月份会有一个。

Joe Hudson: The Connection Course is coming up in September.

Joe Hudson：连接课程将于九月推出。

It's a great place to start.

这是一个很好的起点。

It's foundational for everything else we do.

这是我们所做的一切的基础。

Lenny Rachitsky: Then how can listeners be useful to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Joe Hudson: I want my children to grow up in a fantastic world.

乔·哈德森：我希望我的孩子们在一个奇妙的世界中成长。

The best way that, that can happen is that if the people listening to this discover who they are and their nature and the truth of how they operate.

实现这一目标的最佳方式是，聆听此内容的人们发现他们是谁、他们的本性以及他们运作方式的真相。

Not for them, but for their children and their children's children.

不是为了他们，而是为了他们的孩子和他们孩子的孩子。

You want to do me a favor and make my daughter's world a better place.

你想帮我一个忙，让我女儿的世界变得更美好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I also just had a son, and so I totally resonate with that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我也刚刚有了一个儿子，所以我对此完全产生了共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Joe, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：乔，非常感谢你来到这里。

What an amazing podcast episode.

多么精彩的播客节目啊。

This ended up being as I expected.

这最终正如我所料。

Joe Hudson: Pleasure.

乔·哈德森：很高兴。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Appreciate it, Lenny.

欣赏它，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。