Building minimum lovable products, stories from WeWork & Airbnb, and thriving as a PM | Jiaona Zhang

Jiaona Zhang: I think it's really important to become really good at and also known for something.

张娇娜：我认为变得非常擅长并因某件事而闻名非常重要。

You could be known for shepherding like the most complex launches because you're just so good at quarterbacking.

你可能因引导最复杂的发射而闻​​名，因为你非常擅长四分卫。

Working with go-to--market teams and cross-functional stakeholders that could be like your thing.

与市场推广团队和跨职能利益相关者合作可能是您的职责。

You could be known for working on the most technically complex problems, find something that you can be really, really good at.

您可能因解决技术上最复杂的问题而闻名，找到您真正非常擅长的东西。

And the reason I give that advice is because when you do that, you can crush the projects that you get because you're making a name for yourself, reputation, and then you are giving more responsibility.

我给出这个建议的原因是，当你这样做时，你可能会毁掉你得到的项目，因为你为自己赢得了名声、声誉，然后你就承担了更多的责任。

People tend to flock and give responsibility to the people that are known for being excellent at something.

人们倾向于聚集并把责任交给那些在某方面表现出色的人。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Today my guest is JZ.

今天我的嘉宾是JZ。

JZ is senior vice president of product at Webflow.

JZ 是 Webflow 的产品高级副总裁。

She's also a lecture at Stanford, teaching a course on product management.

她还是斯坦福大学的讲师，教授产品管理课程。

Before this, she was senior director of product management at WeWork, a longtime product leader at Airbnb, where I got to work with JZ for a number of years and she's also PM at Dropbox and at a gaming company called Pocket Gems.

在此之前，她曾担任 WeWork 的产品管理高级总监，长期担任 Airbnb 的产品负责人，我在该公司与 JZ 合作了多年，她还是 Dropbox 和一家名为 Pocket Gems 的游戏公司的产品经理。

Lenny: In her conversation, we dig into the most common mistakes early product managers make in their career.

Lenny：在她的谈话中，我们深入探讨了早期产品经理在职业生涯中最常见的错误。

Plus JZ's biggest product mistake.

再加上JZ最大的产品错误。

We cover the concept of minimal lovable products versus minimal viable products.

我们涵盖了最小可爱产品与最小可行产品的概念。

We talk about JZ's unique frameworks for road mapping and prioritization and OKRs and her take on how to structure your first 90 days as a product leader at a new company, plus what she's learned from her wild year at WeWork.

我们讨论了 JZ 独特的路线图、优先级和 OKR 框架，以及她对如何安排作为新公司产品负责人的头 90 天的看法，以及她在 WeWork 疯狂的一年中学到的东西。

Also, the best advice she's ever gotten around product and leadership and the story of Airbnb Plus and where it went wrong.

此外，还有她在产品和领导力方面得到的最佳建议，以及 Airbnb Plus 的故事和问题所在。

Lenny: I've been hoping to get JZ on the podcast for a while and I'm really happy that we finally made this happen.

Lenny：我一直希望 JZ 能加入播客，我很高兴我们终于实现了这一目标。

With that, I bring you JZ after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 JZ。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Brave Search and their newest product, the Brave Search API, an independent global search index you can use to power your search or AI apps.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Brave Search 及其最新产品 Brave Search API 为您带来的，Brave Search API 是一个独立的全局搜索索引，您可以使用它来为您的搜索或人工智能应用程序提供支持。

If your work involves AI, then you know how important new data is to train your LLMs and to power your AI applications.

如果您的工作涉及人工智能，那么您就会知道新数据对于培训您的法学硕士和为您的人工智能应用程序提供支持有多么重要。

You might be building an incredible AI product, but if you are using the same datasets as your competitors to train your models, you don't have much of an advantage.

您可能正在构建令人难以置信的人工智能产品，但如果您使用与竞争对手相同的数据集来训练模型，那么您就没有太大优势。

Brave Search is the fastest growing search engine since Bing, and it's 100% independent from the big tech companies.

Brave Search 是自 Bing 以来增长最快的搜索引擎，并且 100% 独立于大型科技公司。

Its index features billions of pages of high quality data from real humans and it's constantly updated thanks to being the default search engine in the Brave browser.

它的索引包含来自真实人类的数十亿页高质量数据，并且由于是 Brave 浏览器中的默认搜索引擎，它会不断更新。

Lenny: If you're building products with search capabilities, you're probably experiencing soaring API costs or lack of viable global alternatives to Bing or Google.

Lenny：如果您正在构建具有搜索功能的产品，您可能会遇到 API 成本飙升的情况，或者缺乏 Bing 或 Google 的可行的全球替代品。

It's only going to be become harder to afford these challenges.

应对这些挑战只会变得更加困难。

The Brave Search API gives you access to its novel web scale data with competitive features, intuitive structuring and affordable costs.

Brave Search API 使您能够访问其新颖的网络规模数据，这些数据具有竞争性的功能、直观的结构和实惠的成本。

AI devs will particularly benefit from data containing thorough coverage of recent events.

人工智能开发人员将特别受益于包含近期事件的全面报道的数据。

Lenny's podcast listeners can get started testing the API for free at brave.com/lenny.

Lenny 的播客听众可以在 Brave.com/lenny 上开始免费测试 API。

That's brave.com/lenny.

那是brave.com/lenny。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。

The best way to see what Miro is all about and how it can help your team collaborate better is not to listen to me talk about it, but to go check it out for yourself.

要了解 Miro 的全部内容以及它如何帮助您的团队更好地协作，最好的方法不是听我谈论它，而是亲自去检查一下。

Go to miro.com/lenny.

访问 miro.com/lenny。

With the help of the Miro team, I created a super cool Miro board with two of my own favorite templates, my one-pager template and my managing up template that you can plug and play and start using immediately with your team.

在 Miro 团队的帮助下，我创建了一个超级酷的 Miro 板，其中包含我自己最喜欢的两个模板，即我的单页模板和我的管理模板，您可以即插即用并立即开始与您的团队一起使用。

I've also embedded a handful of my favorite templates that other people publish in the Miro verse.

我还嵌入了一些我最喜欢的模板，这些模板是其他人在 Miro verse 中发布的。

Lenny: When you get to the board, you can also leave suggestions for the podcast, answer a question that I have for you, and generally just play around to get a sense of how it all works.

Lenny：当您进入董事会时，您还可以为播客留下建议，回答我为您提出的问题，并且通常只是尝试一下以了解这一切是如何运作的。

Miro is a killer tool for brainstorming with your team, laying out your strategy, sharing user research findings, capturing ideas, giving feedback on wireframes, and generally just collaborating with your colleagues.

Miro 是一款杀手级工具，可用于与您的团队进行头脑风暴、制定策略、分享用户研究结果、捕获想法、提供线框图反馈以及通常与同事协作。

Actually used Miro to collaborate with the Miro team on creating my own board, and it was super fun and super easy.

实际上使用 Miro 与 Miro 团队合作创建了我自己的板，这非常有趣且非常简单。

Go check it out at miro.com/lenny.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Jiaona Zhang: Thanks for having me.

张娇娜：谢谢你邀请我。

I'm so excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's 100% my pleasure.

莱尼：我百分百高兴。

Amongst your many accomplishments, you teach product management at Stanford, which sounds very fancy.

在您的众多成就中，您在斯坦福大学教授产品管理，这听起来很奇特。

How long have you been doing this at this point?

您现在这样做多久了？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So my question, the real question I want to ask about this is, in that time you've seen a lot of new PMs and you've seen these PMs succeed, you've seen some fail.

所以我的问题，我想问的真正问题是，在那段时间你看到了很多新的产品经理，你看到了这些产品经理的成功，你也看到了一些失败。

What are the most common mistakes that you find new PMs make in this experience of helping new PMs get into the field?

在帮助新产品经理进入该领域的过程中，您发现新产品经理最常犯的错误是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: I think something that is really hard to untrain, but I think every human does it, is you jump to solutions.

张娇娜：我认为有些事情很难不训练，但我认为每个人都会这样做，就是跳到解决方案。

And so one of the biggest things I see, not just in my course but also just as a PM and some of the mistakes that you make as a PM is the idea of you get really attached to a solution, a way of implementing something that you can see in your head that you want to build.

因此，我看到的最重要的事情之一，不仅在我的课程中，而且作为一名 PM，以及作为 PM 所犯的一些错误，就是你真正执着于一个解决方案，一种实现你可以在头脑中看到你想要构建的东西的方法。

Jiaona Zhang: And so that's the first thing I really want to unteach in our course.

张娇娜：所以这是我真正想在我们的课程中取消的第一件事。

And so a lot of people will literally come in, they'll be like, "I want to build X startup" or "I want to do this thing," or "I'm in blank school and I've been doing a lot of research on this particular area." And so untraining that and being like, "Hey, we're going to go out there.

所以很多人都会进来，他们会说，“我想建立 X 初创公司”或“我想做这件事”，或者“我在空白学校，我一直在这个特定领域做很多研究。”所以不训练它，就像，“嘿，我们要去那里。

We are not going to think at all about the thing that you want to build, but instead we're going to be focused on users and people in the real world and their problems.

我们根本不会考虑您想要构建的东西，而是将重点放在现实世界中的用户和人们以及他们的问题上。

And the first step is to understand their problems and then understand if there's an opportunity here as opposed to, 'Hey, you want to build X thing for Y person.'" So that's the biggest mistake that you really have to unteach and retrain thinking around.

第一步是了解他们的问题，然后了解这里是否有机会，而不是，‘嘿，你想为 Y 人构建 X 东西。’”所以这是你真正必须消除和重新训练思维的最大错误。

Lenny: Does a lot of this come from people want to get into product management because they think "Finally I'll have the power, finally I'll be able to tell people what to build, finally my ideas really going to matter?" Is that where a lot lobby comes from?

莱尼：这很大程度上是因为人们想进入产品管理领域，因为他们认为“我终于拥有了权力，我终于能够告诉人们要构建什么，我的想法终于变得重要了吗？”这是很多大厅的来源吗？

Jiaona Zhang: I think there's a part of that.

张娇娜：我认为有一部分原因。

One of the first things I teach is you're not a CEO, you're, you're not here...

我教的第一件事就是你不是首席执行官，你是，你不在这里......

You actually have very little true authority because you don't actually manage anyone.

实际上你几乎没有什么真正的权威，因为你实际上并不管理任何人。

A lot of it is all through influence, and so that is also a piece where you have to kind of untrain that thinking.

很多都是通过影响力实现的，所以这也是你必须摆脱这种思维训练的一部分。

I do think a lot of people come into the product role thinking that I get to call the shots, I get to make the decisions, I get to decide what gets built.

我确实认为很多人进入产品角色时都认为我可以发号施令，我可以做出决定，我可以决定构建什么。

And really your job is not that.

事实上你的工作不是那样的。

Your job is to understand here are the opportunities, and then you're kind of pulling together all the different possibilities and you're really editing.

你的工作是了解这里的机会，然后你将所有不同的可能性放在一起，然后你就可以真正进行编辑。

So I do think it comes from desire for a lot of people thinking that's what the product role is when it actually isn't.

所以我确实认为这来自于很多人的愿望，他们认为这就是产品的角色，但实际上并非如此。

Lenny: So let's go to the other side of this question.

莱尼：那么让我们看看这个问题的另一面。

We talked about what mistakes new PMs make.

我们讨论了新任产品经理会犯哪些错误。

I'm curious, what's the biggest product mistake that you've made?

我很好奇，你犯过的最大的产品错误是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: Wow, that's a good one.

张娇娜：哇，那真是太好了。

It's so interesting.

太有趣了。

I feel like as product people, we're always making mistakes and we're always learning.

我觉得作为产品人员，我们总是会犯错误，但我们总是在学习。

Maybe I'll give an example from Airbnb since you and I were both there.

也许我会举一个 Airbnb 的例子，因为你和我都在那里。

And this one does stand out to me, we were working on this concept called Airbnb Plus.

这个对我来说确实很突出，我们正在研究这个名为 Airbnb Plus 的概念。

If you took a step back, what we were really trying to do is to be like, "Hey, not everyone trusts Airbnb in terms of...

如果你退后一步，我们真正想做的是，“嘿，并不是每个人都信任 Airbnb...

It's a platform.

这是一个平台。

It's not like it's managed inventory, it's not a hotel.

这不像是库存管理，也不是酒店。

How do you go in and really make sure that all the Airbnbs are meeting the quality bar?" But I do think we were very solution-first, and I think we're also competitor afraid at the time.

您如何介入并真正确保所有 Airbnb 都符合质量标准？”但我确实认为我们非常注重解决方案，而且我认为我们当时也害怕竞争对手。

So it was during a time where there were managed marketplaces, there were the Sonders out there, and I think that as a company we're very much like " what are we going to do in the world of managed marketplaces?"

因此，当时有托管市场，有 Sonders，我认为作为一家公司，我们非常想“在托管市场的世界里我们要做什么？”

Jiaona Zhang: And so we went really hard down the solution space.

Jiaona Zhang：因此我们非常努力地探索解决方案。

We essentially were like, "Let's go inspect our inventory, let's actually try to manage our inventory more." And really what we should have done is taken a step back and be like, "What's the real problem?

我们本质上是这样的，“让我们去检查我们的库存，让我们实际上尝试更多地管理我们的库存。”事实上，我们应该做的就是退一步思考，“真正的问题是什么？

The real problem is people want to know what they're getting themselves into.

真正的问题是人们想知道自己正在陷入什么境地。

We need to represent the homes a lot better." And I think the other piece here that's really important is, what, as a company is your strategic strength and what's in your wheelhouse?

我们需要更好地代表家庭。”我认为这里真正重要的另一件事是，作为一家公司，您的战略优势是什么以及您的驾驶室是什么？

So for example, Airbnb, we weren't that strong in operations.

比如说Airbnb，我们的运营能力并不强。

Again, we're this platform with this marketplace.

再说一次，我们是这个市场的平台。

And so if you don't have that muscle and then you're asking the company, the teams to essentially build it from the ground up, that's really, really difficult.

因此，如果你没有这样的能力，然后你要求公司、团队从头开始构建它，那真的非常困难。

Not to mention the unit economics, are the unit economics actually going to work even as you scale?

更不用说单位经济效益了，即使规模扩大，单位经济效益真的会发挥作用吗？

Lenny: Yeah, I feel like Airbnb Plus is an untold story that somebody should tell and that could be its own podcast, I guess.

Lenny：是的，我觉得 Airbnb Plus 是一个不为人知的故事，应该有人讲述，我想这可能是它自己的播客。

Lenny: We could tell this could be Airbnb Plus The Hidden Story.

莱尼：我们可以看出这可能是 Airbnb Plus 隐藏的故事。

As you said, the problem it was trying to solve was people don't really trust...

正如你所说，它试图解决的问题是人们并不真正信任......

They don't want to even consider Airbnb because it's like, "No, I don't want to stay in someone's home.

他们甚至不想考虑 Airbnb，因为这就像，“不，我不想住在别人的家里。

I don't know what it'll be.

我不知道会是什么。

It's unpredictable." And so as an outsider, it felt like a really clever approach.

这是不可预测的。”因此，作为一个局外人，这感觉是一个非常聪明的方法。

"We're going to vet them, we're going to make sure they're awesome.

“我们将对它们进行审查，确保它们很棒。

There's a minimum bar." And I guess this is the question is do you think it was just like "This is never possible because we'll never make money as a business doing this because we don't make that much per booking and investing time, resources, sending people pillows, all that stuff is ever going to be economical"?

有一个最低限度。”我想问题是你是否认为这就像“这永远不可能，因为作为一家这样做的企业，我们永远不会赚钱，因为我们每次预订并投资时间、资源、送人枕头，所有这些东西都不会赚那么多钱”？

Or do you think there was a path that was just not executed well?

或者你认为有一条路没有执行得很好？

Jiaona Zhang: I think there wasn't really a clear path.

张娇娜：我认为并没有一条明确的道路。

I think there was less of-

我认为有更少-

Jiaona Zhang: Exactly.

张娇娜：没错。

And it was more just like if you understood...

这更像是如果你理解的话......

Again, this is what my point around unit economics, there are things where I think you have magical thinking around unit economics.

再说一次，这就是我对单位经济学的观点，我认为你对单位经济学有一些神奇的思考。

You're like, "When we get to the scale of X, it's all going to work out.

你会说，“当我们达到 X 的规模时，一切都会成功。

We can make these things happen." I think you actually need to really make sure that unit economics work quite at the beginning.

我们可以让这些事情发生。”我认为你实际上需要确保单位经济学从一开始就发挥作用。

That is definitely one lesson.

这绝对是一课。

And I think the other thing is, and going back to spirit of what are you trying to achieve.

我认为另一件事是，回到你想要实现的目标的精神上。

If you're trying to achieve this idea of really knowing the quality of the place, and for a platform like Airbnb, the right way to go about doing is through our reviews, through our guest reviews, which are essentially free as opposed to literally sending out inspectors.

如果您想实现真正了解房源质量的想法，对于像 Airbnb 这样的平台，正确的做法是通过我们的评论，通过我们的宾客评论，这些评论本质上是免费的，而不是直接派出检查员。

Jiaona Zhang: And I think that the other things are if you can get signal on what are the things around quality that people care about, is it cleaning?

张娇娜：我认为其他的事情是，如果你能了解人们关心的质量问题是什么，是清洁吗？

Is it, "Hey, I'm locked out"?

是“嘿，我被锁在外面了”吗？

And I think that there are other solutions besides inspection that then get at that.

我认为除了检查之外还有其他解决方案可以解决这个问题。

So for example, it is actually cheaper to go send everyone a lockbox than to deploy an inspector and go look at your property.

例如，给每个人发送一个密码箱实际上比部署一名检查员去查看您的财产要便宜。

It is actually cheaper to maybe do a partnership with a bunch of cleaners in different local areas and then get that as part of the fee, as opposed to doing the inspection.

实际上，与不同地区的一群清洁工建立合作伙伴关系，然后将其作为费用的一部分，而不是进行检查，实际上更便宜。

So again, it's really about what are you really trying to achieve?

再说一遍，这实际上是关于你真正想要实现什么目标？

What is the user problem in each of these areas and can you target that problem with the particular listing that you're looking at?

每个领域的用户问题是什么？您能否针对您正在查看的特定列表来解决该问题？

Jiaona Zhang: And so I personally don't believe the unit economics ever would've really worked out.

张娇娜：所以我个人认为单位经济学不会真正奏效。

I think we should have known that or we should have dug into that more at the very beginning and then to get very tailored instead of one blunt instrument to solve it all, "Hey, we're going to go inspect." It's like what is the problem for this listing and what's the best solution to fix that problem?

我认为我们应该知道这一点，或者我们应该从一开始就深入研究这一点，然后进行量身定制，而不是用一个生硬的工具来解决所有问题，“嘿，我们要去检查。”就像这个列表有什么问题以及解决该问题的最佳解决方案是什么？

Lenny: There's a couple things that I think are important product leadership lessons here.

莱尼：我认为有几件事是重要的产品领导力课程。

One is Airbnb and Brian and many great leaders are famous for imagining the ideal situation, imagining the great end result and then working backwards.

其中之一是 Airbnb 和 Brian，许多伟大的领导者都以想象理想的情况、想象伟大的最终结果然后逆向工作而闻名。

And often that leads to great results when you're being really ambitious and "I don't know how we're going to get there, we're just going to shoot big and hopefully we figure it out." Sometimes it works out.

当你真正雄心勃勃并且“我不知道我们将如何实现这一目标，我们只是要雄心勃勃，希望我们能找到答案”时，这通常会带来伟大的结果。有时它会起作用。

In this case it didn't work out.

在这种情况下，它没有成功。

And what you're finding, maybe you even knew this early on, is just like there's no possible world where this could have worked in this approach.

你会发现，也许你很早就知道了这一点，就像这种方法不可能奏效一样。

Is there anything you've learned about just when to think big and not even like "Forget it.

你有没有学到什么时候要胸怀大志，而不是“算了吧。

We're going to figure it out.

我们会想办法的。

I know this seems impossible, but we're just going to try it anyway"?

我知道这似乎不可能，但我们还是要尝试一下”？

Do you have any kind of framework of when to think big, then just go for it?

您是否有任何框架来指导何时大胆思考，然后付诸实践？

Versus, "Oh, let's just work out the math today," is this ever possible?

与“哦，我们今天算一下数学”相比，这可能吗？

Jiaona Zhang: I think it's really important for every company to be dreaming big.

张娇娜：我认为对于每个公司来说，拥有远大的梦想非常重要。

If you don't have a big vision, it's really hard for you to innovate, but you got to couple that really big vision with thoughtfulness around your execution.

如果你没有远大的愿景，那么你真的很难创新，但你必须将远大的愿景与执行过程中的深思熟虑结合起来。

And so I think that one of the biggest tips I have is how do to be clear about the phase that you're in?

所以我认为我最大的建议之一就是如何清楚自己所处的阶段？

So I think it's totally fine to be like, "Hey, we are going to try X for six months, three months, whatever it is, and we're explicitly going to go learn these types of things.

所以我认为这样是完全可以的：“嘿，我们将尝试 X 六个月、三个月，无论是什么，我们明确地要去学习这些类型的东西。

We're going to learn why are people?

我们要了解人为什么存在？

Are there signals that we would that would indicate that again, the communication with host isn't great or this type of listing, if it's hosted by a person with multiple property?" I think there are factors we can be like, "Hey, we can learn this very explicit thing in a given period of time."

是否有信号表明我们会再次表明，如果房东拥有多处房产，则与房东的沟通不佳或出现此类房源？”我认为有些因素我们可以说，“嘿，我们可以在给定的时间内学习这个非常明确的东西。”

Jiaona Zhang: And you can do what I call unscalable things in that prototyping phase, in that early phase to go learn those lessons.

Jiaona 张：你可以在原型阶段、早期阶段做我所说的不可扩展的事情来学习这些经验教训。

But you just have to be very, very clear with your team on what phase you're in.

但你只需要让你的团队非常非常清楚你所处的阶段。

"Hey, we're in the learning phase and we explicitly are trying to learn these things" versus, "Hey, we have this really big vision and we're just going to go at it." That is not recommended in my mind.

“嘿，我们正处于学习阶段，我们明确地正在努力学习这些东西”，而“嘿，我们有一个非常远大的愿景，我们将继续努力。”在我看来，这是不推荐的。

It's breaking it down into these smaller chunks.

它将它分解成这些更小的块。

That I think gets you the balance of thinking really, really big, but also being able to be like, "Okay, we are still going to be able to say, 'Okay, this path is not going to work out.

我认为这可以让你在思考非常非常大的问题时保持平衡，但同时也能够这样说：“好吧，我们仍然能够说，‘好吧，这条路不会成功。

We ran at it for a short period of time.

我们跑了很短一段时间。

We got these learnings, now let's go down this other path.'"

我们得到了这些教训，现在让我们走另一条路。”

Lenny: Yeah, there's also some cost fallacy that kicks in of just like, "Oh, I spend so much time and money and resources on this thing.

莱尼：是的，还有一些成本谬误，就像“哦，我在这件事上花了很多时间、金钱和资源。

Let's just go a little bit longer.

让我们再稍微长一点吧。

Let's just see if we give it another quarter, maybe it'll work out."

让我们看看是否再给它一个季度，也许会有结果。”

Jiaona Zhang: You should articulate what success looks like and the milestones you want to hit in the small intervals that I talked about.

张娇娜：你应该在我谈到的一小段时间内阐明成功是什么样子以及你想要达到的里程碑。

So you don't get into this world where you're like, "Hey, I've gone for two years investing in this thing.

所以你不会进入这个世界，你会说，“嘿，我已经花了两年时间投资这个东西。

Now we got to cut it." It's like, what is the quarter long milestone?

现在我们必须把它砍掉。”就像，季度长的里程碑是什么？

Okay, what's the next quarter long milestone?

好的，下一个季度的里程碑是什么？

And every single point, what is a go and no-go?

每一个点，什么是可行和不可行？

And I think that really can help a team and a company say "It's okay.

我认为这确实可以帮助团队和公司说“没关系。

I invested a quarter in it, but I didn't invest two years."

我投资了四分之一，但没有投资两年。”

Lenny: The other important lesson here is about the importance of as a product leader pushing back and convincing leadership that you are wrong and this shouldn't happen.

莱尼：这里的另一个重要教训是关于作为产品领导者反击并说服领导层你错了并且这种情况不应该发生的重要性。

I remember talking to one of our colleagues, Mike Lewis, who was leading a different team with Airbnb, and he was just like, "Oh, I realized I'm the person that should be saying, 'No, we shouldn't do this now'" because he was the head of product for one of the new .

我记得与我们的一位同事迈克·刘易斯 (Mike Lewis) 交谈，他当时领导着 Airbnb 的另一个团队，他说，“哦，我意识到我应该说，‘不，我们现在不应该这样做’”，因为他是其中一个新项目的产品主管。

And I know maybe in that situation it was impossible because Brian was very into this and everyone was like, "We need to do this thing."

我知道也许在那种情况下这是不可能的，因为布莱恩对此非常感兴趣，每个人都说，“我们需要做这件事。”

Lenny: I guess is there anything you've learned about how to push back on these sorts of things that the founder's really into when it makes sense to go along?

莱尼：我想你有没有学到什么关于如何在有意义的情况下抵制创始人真正感兴趣的事情？

Like "Cool, let's do it.

就像“酷，让我们开始吧。

Let's buy in." As a leader, you have to be excited and he needs to feel like, "Oh, JZ is really excited about this too.

我们去买吧。”作为领导者，你必须感到兴奋，他也需要感觉，“哦，JZ 也对此感到非常兴奋。

We got to try it." Even though maybe you feel like it's not going to work out.

我们必须尝试一下。”即使你可能觉得这不会成功。

So I guess the question is when do you think it makes sense to try convince the founder, "No, this is the bad idea" versus like "Let's go for it"?

所以我想问题是你认为什么时候尝试说服创始人“不，这是个坏主意”而不是“让我们去做吧”是有意义的？

Jiaona Zhang: I think first it comes down to your conviction.

张娇娜：我认为首先取决于你的信念。

Do you actually have conviction that this is a bad idea or are you personally still learning?

您是否确实确信这是一个坏主意，或者您个人仍在学习中？

Right.

正确的。

I think if you're at the point, if you're like, "I have total conviction," then your job is to say, no, you really...

我认为，如果你到了这个时候，如果你说，“我完全相信”，那么你的工作就是说，不，你真的......

If you do not, you're not doing your job.

如果你不这样做，你就没有做好你的工作。

And then the question is what are the tips in how to convince someone who's very bought into an idea that that's not the right idea?

那么问题是，如何让那些非常认同某个想法的人相信这不是正确的想法，有什么技巧呢？

And there what I would say is it's understanding the spirit of what they're trying to achieve.

我想说的是，这是理解他们想要实现的目标的精神。

Being able to go back with, "Hey, I understand the spirit.

能够回去说：“嘿，我理解这种精神。

The spirit is that we're trying to get people who previously didn't consider Airbnb before to come and use Airbnb, but the right way to do it is not this very time-intensive, cost-intensive way to inspect all these homes.

我们的精神是，我们正在努力让以前没有考虑过 Airbnb 的人们来使用 Airbnb，但正确的做法并不是采用这种非常耗时、成本密集的方式来检查所有这些房屋。

The way to do it is to be much more granular in what we ask people when they upload their home and more checks in that.

做到这一点的方法是，当人们上传自己的房屋时，我们会更详细地询问他们，并进行更多检查。

And that could be automated and through technology as opposed to through humans."

这可以通过技术实现自动化，而不是通过人类。”

Jiaona Zhang: It's coming back with actual options.

张娇娜：它带着实际的选择回来了。

It's like saying...

就好像说...

And I think we did that a little bit to be honest, when we as a team evolve, we learn and we're like, "This isn't going to work." And I explicitly moved off the team and I was like, "I'm going to work on the review system.

老实说，我认为我们这样做了一点，当我们作为一个团队不断发展时，我们会学习，然后我们会说，“这行不通。”我明确地离开了团队，我当时想，“我将从事审查系统的工作。

I'm going to continue to evolve this and make it better because that is the actual scalable way to do this as opposed to keep going at it in the very manual process."

我将继续改进这一点并使其变得更好，因为这是实际的可扩展方式，而不是在非常手动的过程中继续进行。”

Jiaona Zhang: And so I think that the biggest tip I would have for people in this situation is really understand whether it's the founder or your manager or whoever it is, what is it that they're trying to accomplish for the user and for the business?

张娇娜：所以我认为，在这种情况下，我给人们的最大建议是真正了解无论是创始人还是你的经理还是其他人，他们想要为用户和企业实现什么目标？

Remind them of that, get aligned on that.

提醒他们这一点，并就此达成一致。

And then come back with better options.

然后带着更好的选择回来。

A lot of these people, they're very smart and they're very motivated.

这些人中有很多人非常聪明，而且非常有动力。

They ultimately want to just do the right thing for their users.

他们最终只想为用户做正确的事情。

When you come back with a much better solution and you have the data and you have the thinking behind it's very rare that someone will be like, "I still want to go after this solution despite the fact that it's not working and you proposed a much better path forward."

当你带着更好的解决方案回来时，你有数据，你有背后的想法，很少有人会说，“我仍然想追求这个解决方案，尽管事实上它不起作用，而且你提出了一条更好的前进道路。”

Lenny: And I think to touch on what you've already said is also make sure it's actually...

莱尼：我认为触及你已经说过的话也确保它实际上是......

There's a world where this could work.

有一个世界可以做到这一点。

Do some math to figure out if this is a business that will actually make some money in the future.

做一些数学计算，看看这是否是一项在未来真正能赚钱的生意。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm going to bounce around a little bit.

我要稍微弹跳一下。

I have a bunch of different questions around different topics.

我对不同的主题有很多不同的问题。

You popularized this concept of minimal lovable product versus this idea that everyone always comes back to, which is minimal viable product.

你普及了“最小可爱产品”的概念，而不是每个人都会回想起的“最小可行产品”的想法。

Can you just talk about what is a minimal lovable product and then when does it make sense to go in that direction versus a traditional MVP?

您能谈谈什么是最小化可爱产品吗？与传统 MVP 相比，什么时候朝这个方向发展才有意义？

Jiaona Zhang: The reason I care so much about minimal lovable product is because I do think in a world where there are so many different options, it's hard to just feel like, "Hey, use this thing.

张娇娜：我如此关心最小可爱产品的原因是因为我确实认为在一个有这么多不同选择的世界中，很难只是感觉，“嘿，使用这个东西。

It barely meets a quality bar." And so I think this idea of actually deeply understanding for the thing that you're working on, what is a lovable experience?

它几乎没有达到质量标准。”所以我认为这种真正深入理解你正在做的事情的想法是什么是一种可爱的经历？

What is the quality bar that resonates with your users?

引起用户共鸣的质量标准是什么？

And again, especially in a world where there might be a lot of different options.

再说一遍，尤其是在一个可能有很多不同选择的世界里。

Minimal lovable products is the new MVP.

最小可爱的产品是新的 MVP。

The new minimal viable product.

新的最小可行产品。

Jiaona Zhang: So I think that's the real point, but at the end of the day, it does come back to what are the options that a user has and what are they trying to do?

张娇娜：所以我认为这才是真正的重点，但归根结底，它确实回到了用户有哪些选择以及他们想要做什么？

So there's a world where your quality bar, your "Quality bar," or let's call it your polished bar, can be a little bit lower because the reality is the thing that you're "Competing against" or you're replacing is literally a manual workflow.

因此，在这个世界里，你的质量栏，你的“质量栏”，或者让我们称之为你的抛光栏，可以稍微低一点，因为现实是你“竞争”或你要替换的东西实际上是一个手动工作流程。

It's like spreadsheets.

这就像电子表格。

It's doing something in a super terrible way.

它正在以一种超级可怕的方式做事。

Jiaona Zhang: So you want to get your product to market as quickly as possible, so it doesn't make sense for you to be like, "I'm going to build these 15 additional features." Because compared to what people are doing right now, your product without those 15 additional features is perfectly fine, perfectly usable, and perfectly quite honestly lovable.

Jiaona 张：所以你希望尽快将你的产品推向市场，所以你说“我要构建这 15 个附加功能”是没有意义的。因为与人们现在所做的相比，如果你的产品没有这 15 个附加功能，那就非常好，非常可用，并且非常诚实地可爱。

So it requires a lot of understanding of, again, your users and the space that you play in and the tolerance of your given user.

因此，这再次需要对您的用户、您所玩的空间以及给定用户的容忍度有大量的了解。

So for example, a designer might have a lot higher of a bar of like "This is the kind of workflow I want, this is the kind of bar for my product." But again, someone sitting on the finance team or the IT team, their bar might be like, "Oh, I'm used to doing these 15 things and so your thing is just a lot better."

例如，设计师可能有更高的标准，比如“这就是我想要的工作流程，这就是我的产品的标准。”但同样，财务团队或 IT 团队的成员可能会说，“哦，我习惯做这 15 件事，所以你的事情要好得多。”

Lenny: I'd love to go even one level deeper.

莱尼：我很想更进一步。

Is there an example of something you've worked on that was minimal lovable product that you think about?

有没有一个你所从事的产品是你认为最可爱的产品的例子？

Or is there something out there that's an example of here's maybe an example of a minimal lovable product versus MVP?

或者有什么东西可以作为一个例子，这里可能是一个最小可爱产品与 MVP 的例子？

Jiaona Zhang: Again, it's very hard.

张娇娜：再说一次，这非常困难。

I think every product team, every product person struggles with this idea of what is the minimal viable.

我认为每个产品团队、每个产品人员都在努力思考什么是最小可行的想法。

Even that concept itself is difficult and not to mention minimal lovable.

甚至这个概念本身就很困难，更不用说最起码的可爱了。

I'll give a Webflow example.

我将给出一个 Webflow 示例。

Very recently, so have been investing in a couple of new features, memberships and logic, new functionality for our users.

最近，我们为我们的用户投资了一些新功能、会员资格和逻辑、新功能。

And what we realized at the end of the day after investing in these areas, we were like, "Hey, we can get to minimal viable, but we don't know if we can actually get to minimal lovable in a way that our users really, really want.

在对这些领域进行投资后，我们最终意识到，“嘿，我们可以达到最小可行，但我们不知道我们是否真的可以以用户真正想要的方式达到最小可爱。

And so does it make sense for us to continue to go down this path of continues to chip away to get to minimal lovable when we are maybe hitting diminishing returns for our user base?

那么，当我们的用户群可能面临回报递减的情况时，我们继续走这条不断努力以达到最低限度可爱的道路是否有意义？

Or does it actually make sense to release what we have but then encourage our ecosystem to contribute the lovable piece?"

或者，释放我们拥有的东西，然后鼓励我们的生态系统贡献可爱的部分，真的有意义吗？”

Jiaona Zhang: And again, it's not just like you put it out there and you hope, you have to have a very strong point of view of are we at minimal viable, are we at minimal lovable?

张娇娜：再说一次，这不仅仅是你把它放在那里，你希望，你必须有一个非常强烈的观点，我们是否至少是可行的，我们是否至少是可爱的？

Where in between are we?

我们处于两者之间的哪个位置？

And so having that point of view and then being able to say, "Are we going to be able to meet it as a company?

因此，有了这样的观点，然后能够说：“作为一家公司，我们能够满足这个要求吗？

Are we going to rely on our ecosystem to help us meet it?

我们是否要依靠我们的生态系统来帮助我们实现这一目标？

What are we actually going to do?" And then even within the feature set, it's very much a how do we do some things well as opposed to do a little bit of everything?

我们到底要做什么？”即使在功能集中，这在很大程度上也是我们如何做好某些事情而不是每件事都做一点的问题？

I think that is a big piece of minimal lovable, which is again...

我认为这是一个很大的最小可爱，这又是......

To me it's better to do five things instead of the 15 things in a really, really great way with a high degree of polish with a, "Oh, this really meets my need," versus trying to do everything and just doing a little bit of everything.

对我来说，最好以一种非常非常好的方式做五件事，而不是做 15 件事，并且高度完善，“哦，这真的满足我的需要”，而不是尝试做所有事情，只做一点点。

And so every part of the experience feels a little bit clunky.

因此，体验的每个部分都感觉有点笨拙。

It's not quite there.

它不完全在那里。

Jiaona Zhang: People I think would actually respect this idea of "You've given me minimal lovable in five areas as opposed to minimal viable in 15 areas."

张娇娜：我认为人们实际上会尊重“你在五个方面给了我最低限度的可爱，而不是在15个方面给了我最低限度的可行”的想法。

Lenny: Is there anything you've seen of just that makes something lovable?

莱尼：你见过什么东西能让东西变得可爱吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I know it's not easy to define, but what are things you've seen that makes something lovable?

我知道这很难定义，但是你见过哪些东西让某些东西变得可爱呢？

Is it delightful features?

它有令人愉快的功能吗？

Or is it what you're saying, which is just things are actually good, there's fewer things, but they're each really good?

还是像你说的，其实东西都很好，东西比较少，但是都很好？

Jiaona Zhang: There's definitely this idea of the thing is just good.

张娇娜：这个想法肯定是很好的。

It has all.

它拥有一切。

High quality, it's not janky, it doesn't feel weird.

高品质，不卡顿，不感觉奇怪。

I'll give you a very small example again, just from Webflow, this idea of keyboard shortcuts, feels small, but that is a piece that creates a lot of love from user base who are power users.

我将再次给您举一个非常小的例子，来自 Webflow，键盘快捷键的想法感觉很小，但它却赢得了高级用户的用户群的喜爱。

And then there's this concept of pixie dusts, and maybe I'll pull out of call it like design tool space and we'll talk about some of the other things, whether it's Dropbox or Airbnb, but you can just do a little bit of that extra pixie dusts.

然后是精灵尘埃的概念，也许我会像设计工具空间一样退出它，我们会讨论一些其他的事情，无论是 Dropbox 还是 Airbnb，但你可以做一点额外的精灵尘埃。

So an example from Airbnb when we're doing the mobile app revamp where like "There's like these basic table stakes, but if we actually added in templates and we made it so that these templates could be maybe pre-populated in certain ways from the content they already have," that is lovable, that is that extra little bit of pixie dust and spending the time to do that.

举个来自 Airbnb 的例子，当我们进行移动应用程序改造时，“有这些基本的赌注，但如果我们实际上添加了模板，并且我们制作了它，那么这些模板可能会以某种方式从他们已有的内容中预先填充”，这是可爱的，那就是额外的一点点精灵灰尘，并花时间来做这件事。

Jiaona Zhang: Again, you can't pixie dust everything.

张娇娜：再说一遍，你不可能把所有事情都尘埃落定。

At the end of the day, you basically have your time, your staffing and the scope of your project and something has to give.

归根结底，你基本上已经有了你的时间、你的人员配置和你的项目范围，还有一些必须付出的东西。

And so at the end of the day, you can't just keep investing, keep investing because it's going to push out your launch timeline, but can you pick a few different areas where you're like, "I'm going to scatter that pixie dust, I'm going to do a little bit more than what users are expecting"?

因此，归根结底，你不能只是继续投资，继续投资，因为这会推迟你的发布时间表，但你能选择几个不同的领域，让你喜欢，“我要撒下精灵尘埃，我要做比用户期望的多一点的事情”？

And that creates that lovability.

这创造了那种可爱。

Lenny: Shifting to a different topic, I know you have strong opinions about road mapping and OKRs, improvisation, and I know that's a big topic, but let me just ask, what's the most common advice you give around how to roadmap well, do OKRs, prioritize and/or just, I don't know, common mantras or things you always come back to be successful in these areas?

Lenny：换一个话题，我知道你对路线图、OKR、即兴创作有强烈的看法，我知道这是一个很大的话题，但我只想问一下，你对如何做好路线图、执行 OKR、确定优先级和/或只是，我不知道，常见的口头禅或你总是在这些领域取得成功的事情给出的最常见的建议是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: Road mapping prioritization are one bucket for me.

Jiaona 张：道路测绘优先级对我来说是一个目标。

And then OKRs is another.

OKR 是另一个。

So I'll maybe give you my biggest tip in each one of these buckets.

因此，我可能会在每一桶中给你我最大的建议。

Jiaona Zhang: So for road mapping, my biggest thing that I tell my teams is "You're telling a story.

张娇娜：对于路线图，我告诉我的团队的最重要的事情是“你在讲一个故事。

So what I want from you is I want themes, I want a story.

所以我想从你这里得到的是我想要主题，我想要一个故事。

Why are these things the biggest things to invest in these levers, the biggest ones to pull?" And what I really don't want, what I think is a very common mistake from road mapping is people thinking a spreadsheet with a bunch of projects, the RICE framework, everything has an impact, a cost and an effort column filled out.

为什么这些东西是这些杠杆中最值得投资、最需要拉动的东西？”我真正不想要的是，我认为路线图的一个非常常见的错误是人们认为电子表格包含一堆项目，RICE 框架，一切都有影响，填写了成本和工作量列。

They think that is prioritization and that is a roadmap.

他们认为这是优先顺序，也是路线图。

If you just do that right and then you present that to your team, they're off to the races.

如果你正确地做到了这一点，然后将其展示给你的团队，他们就可以参加比赛了。

Jiaona Zhang: But what people, what humans really crave is like, "Why am I doing this body of work?" And I think it's also really, really important to have that really crisply articulated in your own head because ultimately what happens is you'll learn things as a product person.

张娇娜：但是人们真正渴望的是“我为什么要做这些工作？”我认为在你自己的头脑中清晰地表达这一点也非常非常重要，因为最终发生的事情是你将作为产品人员学到东西。

You'll be like, "Oh, I assumed this in the narrative in my head about my users or about my product area, and then I learned why and therefore my thinking changed." So instead of it being this massive spreadsheet where you're going in, you're tweaking all the values, what is the story that you're telling about your roadmap that these inputs can then go and influence?

你会说，“哦，我在脑海中关于我的用户或我的产品领域的叙述中假设了这一点，然后我了解了原因，因此我的想法发生了变化。”因此，您不是要输入这个庞大的电子表格，而是要调整所有值，您要讲述的有关路线图的故事是什么，这些输入可以影响哪些内容？

Jiaona Zhang: It could be like, "Hey, I just realized I didn't know before that we have a lot more power users on our," or "Maybe we have a lot more non-technical users." That input changes my roadmap and changes my themes in a pretty dramatic way.

Jiaona 张：可能是这样的，“嘿，我刚刚意识到我以前不知道我们有更多的高级用户”，或者“也许我们有更多的非技术用户。”这个输入改变了我的路线图，并以一种非常戏剧性的方式改变了我的主题。

So skating at that level is really, really critical, I think for a roadmap as opposed to going down to the really granular details of the how.

因此，在这个级别上滑冰真的非常非常重要，我认为对于路线图来说，而不是深入到具体的细节。

So that's the biggest thing on road mapping, which is like tell a story.

这就是道路测绘中最重要的事情，就像讲故事一样。

What are your themes?

你的主题是什么？

Make it so that your team can come up with the actual how and the projects and all the little details, but really create that scaffolding for them to know what's important.

让你的团队能够想出实际的方式、项目和所有的小细节，但真正为他们创建脚手架，让他们知道什么是重要的。

Lenny: Can I ask a follow-up question on that?

莱尼：我可以问一个后续问题吗？

Lenny: It's easy to visualize the roadmap of a spreadsheet to help people visualize what you're suggesting there.

Lenny：很容易将电子表格的路线图可视化，以帮助人们可视化您在那里的建议。

What does that actual artifact look like?

那个真实的工件是什么样子的？

Is it a doc with maybe an ancillary spreadsheet of the actual prioritization?

它是一个包含实际优先级的辅助电子表格的文档吗？

Is it a deck?

是甲板吗？

How do you actually deliver this to you with like "JZ, here's our proposal for our team"?

您如何实际向您传达“JZ，这是我们为我们团队提供的建议”之类的信息？

Jiaona Zhang: Yeah, I'm a big fan of docs and decks are obviously helpful if you're talking live, but I do think in a remote-first culture or lots of us are in hybrid remote cultures it's hard because decks typically require a voiceover.

Jiaona 张：是的，我是文档的忠实粉丝，如果你在现场讲话，套牌显然很有帮助，但我确实认为在远程优先的文化中或者我们很多人都处于混合远程文化中，这很难，因为套牌通常需要画外音。

And so we have been doing a big push even on my teams where I'm like, "Write it down and document.

因此，即使是在我的团队中，我们也一直在大力推动，我会说：“把它写下来并记录下来。

Force yourself to write the pros because when you write the pros, you can actually add that level of granularity." So very much so the same way like "I'm a roadmap is a story.

强迫自己写专业人士，因为当你写专业人士时，你实际上可以添加这种粒度级别。”就像“我是路线图是一个故事”一样。

You're telling themes, you write a story in a notebook, you write a story on pages," and so a doc is definitely preferred.

你要讲述主题，你在笔记本上写一个故事，你在页面上写一个故事，”所以文档绝对是首选。

And even in the doc just being like, "Here's what we're trying to achieve, here are the big areas I want to invest in, here are my big themes." And then going into each of those themes and being like, "These are the big projects."

即使在文档中也只是这样说：“这是我们想要实现的目标，这是我想要投资的大领域，这是我的大主题。”然后深入每个主题，然后说：“这些都是大项目。”

Jiaona Zhang: And then linking out, again, not even to a spreadsheet, but linking out to the artifacts and the systems that your team actually uses.

Jiaona Zhang：然后再次链接，甚至不是链接到电子表格，而是链接到您的团队实际使用的工件和系统。

So if your team uses Jira, go ahead and link out to Jira because so often docs get out of...

因此，如果您的团队使用 Jira，请继续链接到 Jira，因为文档经常会脱离...

Or spreadsheets get out of date, because they're like a snapshot of whatever it is that you needed at that point in time.

或者电子表格已经过时，因为它们就像您当时所需的任何内容的快照。

But instead you link out to the actual things that your teams are working out of, you can always be like, "These are the themes.

但相反，你可以链接到你的团队正在解决的实际问题，你总是可以说，“这些是主题。

I will edit these if I learn major things that would change my themes.

如果我学到会改变我的主题的重大事情，我会编辑这些内容。

And then let's go link out to the Jira where you can just see the snapshot of the roadmap at any given point in time."

然后让我们链接到 Jira，您可以在其中查看任何给定时间点的路线图快照。”

Lenny: Do you have a template or common structure you suggest to teams for laying out this story or is it just depends on the quarter, it depends on the year?

Lenny：您是否有向团队建议的模板或通用结构来展示这个故事，或者它仅取决于季度，取决于年份？

Jiaona Zhang: I'll give a plug for a new thing coming out of Reforge, which is this concept of artifacts.

Jiaona 张：我将为 Reforge 中出现的新事物提供一个插件，这就是工件的概念。

And so we do have a lot of artifacts out there, so what's our general product development process?

我们确实有很多工件，那么我们的一般产品开发流程是怎样的？

What are our templates for our specs?

我们的规格模板是什么？

What are our templates for some of these things that we're talking about, a roadmap, like a broader roadmap instead of just a feature spec.

我们正在讨论的一些事情的模板是什么，路线图，比如更广泛的路线图，而不仅仅是功能规范。

So yes, we have a ton of those artifacts, are always evolving.

所以，是的，我们有大量这样的工件，而且总是在不断发展。

I think every team takes it and tweaks it a little bit, but I'm a big believer of bringing those artifacts back and then sharing them across the team.

我认为每个团队都会接受它并对其进行一些调整，但我坚信将这些工件带回来然后在整个团队中共享。

And so product operations is also a function that we've invested in because it just really greases the wheels, gets all of our teams speaking the same language.

因此，产品运营也是我们投资的一项功能，因为它确实起到了润滑作用，让我们所有的团队都说同一种语言。

Awesome.: This episode is brought to you by Superhuman.

太棒了。：这一集是由超人为您带来的。

How much time do you spend in email each day?

您每天花多少时间在电子邮件上？

How about your team?

你的团队怎么样？

You may not realize this, but your email tools are wasting your time.

您可能没有意识到这一点，但您的电子邮件工具正在浪费您的时间。

Superhuman is blazingly fast email for high performing teams built to work with Gmail and Outlook.

Super human 是一款速度极快的电子邮件，适合与 Gmail 和 Outlook 配合使用的高绩效团队。

Teams who use Superhuman spend half the time in their inboxes respond to twice the number of emails and save over four hours a week.

使用 Super human 的团队可以将一半的时间花在收件箱上，回复两倍数量的电子邮件，每周可以节省四个多小时。

That's over a month of save time per year.

每年可节省一个多月的时间。

With Superhuman, you can split your inbox into streams for VIPs, team members and emails from your favorite products to reduce context switching and make sure you never miss an important email.

借助 Super human，您可以将收件箱分成 VIP、团队成员和来自您喜爱的产品的电子邮件流，以减少上下文切换并确保您不会错过任何重要电子邮件。

You can set reminders if you don't hear back so that you can follow up and never drop the ball on an email thread.

如果您没有收到回复，您可以设置提醒，以便您可以跟进，而不会在电子邮件线程中犯错。

You can also work faster than ever before with powerful AI features like writing, editing, summarizing and even translating.

您还可以利用强大的人工智能功能（例如写作、编辑、总结甚至翻译）比以往更快地工作。

Join the ranks of the most productive teams and unleash the power of superhuman.

加入最有生产力的团队行列，释放超人的力量。

Try one month free at superhuman.com/lenny.

请访问 super human.com/lenny 免费试用一个月。

That's superhuman.com/lenny.

那是 super human.com/lenny。

Awesome.: Moving to a different topic, what is your number one piece of advice to new PMs who want to accelerate their career?

太棒了。：换个话题，对于想要加速职业发展的新产品经理来说，您的第一条建议是什么？

What do you find most often is the blocker or thing holding them back or something they can change that'll accelerate things?

您最常发现的阻碍因素或阻碍他们的因素是什么，或者他们可以改变的因素会加速事情的进展？

Jiaona Zhang: There's so many parts to it, but I'll pick one.

张娇娜：有很多部分，但我会挑一个。

And there are many frameworks even beyond the one, but let's pick one for your question, which is I think it's really important to become really good at and also known for something.

除了这个之外，还有很多框架，但让我们为你的问题选择一个，我认为真正擅长并因某件事而闻名非常重要。

And what I mean by that is when you're known in your company for a particular thing....

我的意思是当你在公司中因某件事而闻名时......

I'll give you a couple examples.

我给你举几个例子。

You could be known for shepherding the most complex launches because you're just so good at quarterbacking, working with go-to market teams and cross-functional stakeholders, that could be your thing.

您可能因主持最复杂的发布而闻名，因为您非常擅长四分卫、与进入市场的团队和跨职能利益相关者合作，这可能是您的专长。

You could be known for working on the most technically complex problems.

您可能因解决技术上最复杂的问题而闻名。

You could be known for working on things that are really regulatory complex.

您可能因从事监管复杂的事情而闻名。

Find something that you can be really, really good at.

找到你真正非常擅长的事情。

And the reason I give that advice is because when you do that, you can crush the projects that you get.

我给出这个建议的原因是因为当你这样做时，你可能会毁掉你得到的项目。

Because you're making a name for yourself, reputation, and then you are giving more responsibility.

因为你为自己赢得了名声、声誉，然后你就承担了更多的责任。

People tend to flock and give responsibility to the people that are known for being excellent at something.

人们倾向于聚集并把责任交给那些在某方面表现出色的人。

Lenny: Is there something you were known to be excellent at in the course of your career?

莱尼：在您的职业生涯中，有什么事情是您认为最擅长的吗？

Jiaona Zhang: I would say early on in my career, it was actually the fact that I had a strong analytics background.

张娇娜：我想说，在我职业生涯的早期，我实际上拥有强大的分析背景。

And so when I joined gaming, I came from consulting, I didn't have any CS background or design background, and so it was really creating a reputation around being very analytical, around being able to analyze the datasets of my game and then make decisions.

所以当我加入游戏行业时，我来自咨询行业，我没有任何 CS 背景或设计背景，所以它确实创造了一个非常善于分析的声誉，能够分析我的游戏数据集然后做出决策。

I also learned as I was doing that I was actually really good at execution, and so being able to keep a lot of plates spinning and working on the largest studio and managing all the complex pieces of that, that was what I discovered.

我在做的过程中还了解到，我实际上非常擅长执行，因此能够让大量的板块旋转并在最大的工作室工作并管理其中的所有复杂部分，这就是我发现的。

I didn't know this, but I discovered as I started working in the role.

我不知道这一点，但当我开始担任这个角色时我发现了这一点。

Jiaona Zhang: And so that was something I brought to Dropbox.

Jiaona Zhang：这就是我给 Dropbox 带来的东西。

When I joined Dropbox.

当我加入 Dropbox 时。

It was like I knew that I could work with a lot of different teams and make sure that we hit a launch deadline, and so I would find myself trying to lean into that superpower and then when delivering upon that, getting more responsibility, "Hey, you just launched this really complex thing, this was a project that had to work across a lot of different platforms.

就好像我知道我可以与很多不同的团队合作，并确保我们在发布截止日期前完成，所以我会发现自己试图依靠这个超级大国，然后在实现这一目标时，承担更多的责任，“嘿，你刚刚启动了这个非常复杂的东西，这是一个必须在很多不同平台上运行的项目。

We're using Griddle APIs." And it was a very, very small team and it had a very, very tight deadline.

我们正在使用 Griddle API。”这是一个非常非常小的团队，而且期限非常非常紧迫。

Jiaona Zhang: So when you're like, "I can do something like this," you end up getting more responsibility because people were like, "Oh, she was able to do something that was really hard with a small team," and so that's how you get more responsibility.

张娇娜：所以当你想，“我可以做这样的事情”时，你最终会得到更多的责任，因为人们会说，“哦，她能够用一个小团队做一些非常困难的事情”，所以这就是你如何获得更多的责任。

But it has evolved in my career.

但它在我的职业生涯中不断发展。

I think that at the beginning of your career, you do want to lean into some of these pieces.

我认为在你职业生涯的初期，你确实想要学习其中的一些内容。

It makes sense, but also even when you start to manage, it shifts dramatically.

这是有道理的，但即使你开始管理，情况也会发生巨大变化。

Being known as the best executor is not necessarily the thing that gives you and your team the most responsibility.

被称为最佳执行者并不一定会给您和您的团队带来最大的责任。

So as I've grown my career, whether it's at Airbnb or WeWork or other places I flex into maybe a different...

因此，随着我职业生涯的发展，无论是在 Airbnb、WeWork 还是其他地方，我都会尝试不同的……

It's like taking your core strength but then flexing it and finding different ways to bring it to life.

这就像发挥你的核心力量，然后发挥它并找到不同的方法来发挥它的作用。

Lenny: Much of what I just heard is you just worked incredibly hard and just got shit done.

莱尼：我刚刚听到的大部分内容都是你工作非常努力，而且只是完成了一些糟糕的事情。

And I think that's very, very important and often leads to a lot of success.

我认为这非常非常重要，并且往往会带来很多成功。

Jiaona Zhang: PMs have to get shit done.

张娇娜：产品经理必须把事情做好。

Yeah, ultimately you're responsible for the outcome just no matter what happens.

是的，无论发生什么，最终你都要对结果负责。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Be known for getting shit done and working really hard, and that's never going to serve you badly.

以完成任务和努力工作而闻名，这永远不会对你有坏处。

I think that is just lasting advice for being successful as a PM.

我认为这只是作为一名成功的产品经理的持久建议。

I realized that we were talking about your tips on prioritization, road mapping and then OKRs, and then I shifted topics and you never got to the OKR bucket.

我意识到我们正在讨论您关于优先级、路线图和 OKR 的建议，然后我转移了话题，但您却从未谈到 OKR。

So let me come back to that.

让我回到这一点。

Jiaona Zhang: Yes.

张娇娜：是的。

My biggest tip on OKRs is actually get really, really crisp on qualitatively.

我对 OKR 的最大建议实际上是在质量上变得非常非常清晰。

What would make you say "Yes, we did a great job"?

是什么让您说“是的，我们做得很好”？

And the reason I pushed so hard on that is because I see so many teams get really mucked down by OKRs.

我之所以如此努力地推动这一点，是因为我看到很多团队都被 OKR 搞得一团糟。

They're like, "Oh man, if I don't hit my OKR, I feel like I'm going to have a really bad reputation, or maybe I won't get promoted." You just get all this fear around OKRs.

他们会说，“哦，伙计，如果我没有达到 OKR，我觉得我的名声会很差，或者我可能不会升职。”你只会对 OKR 感到恐惧。

And so you see people, you see people sandbagging, you see people being hesitant to put in numbers until the very last second until they're super, super confident.

所以你看到人们，你看到人们沙袋，你看到人们直到最后一秒都犹豫是否要输入数字，直到他们非常非常自信。

And that results in ultimately a failure for your company to innovate and move quickly.

这最终会导致您的公司无法创新和快速行动。

Jiaona Zhang: And so what I really push on for OKRs is are you actually...

Jiaona 张：所以我真正推动 OKR 的是，你实际上是......

What's the spirit...

什么精神啊...

I think I asked this question maybe too much to my team, but what is the spirit of what you're trying to achieve and what would make you say, 'I really, really crushed it this past quarter'?

我想我对我的团队问这个问题可能太多了，但是你们想要实现的目标的精神是什么，是什么让你们说，“我在上个季度真的、真的粉碎了它”？

And so it's less about I would rather have all the OKRs be red or yellow and we missed everything and we learned around why we missed it than everything to be green.

因此，与其说我宁愿所有 OKR 都是红色或黄色，而且我们错过了所有内容，也了解了为什么我们错过了它，不如让所有 OKR 都变成绿色。

In fact, when everything's green, you're like, "We definitely did not set ambitious enough OKRs." And so it really pushed a lot on what does it truly mean to crush it and be successful?

事实上，当一切都是绿色的时候，你会想，“我们绝对没有设定足够雄心勃勃的 OKR。”所以它确实推动了很多关于粉碎它并取得成功的真正意义是什么？

What does it mean for our users?

这对我们的用户意味着什么？

What does it mean for our business?

这对我们的业务意味着什么？

What does that...

那是什么...

For our users to feel X, can you describe that?

为了让我们的用户感受到X，您能描述一下吗？

Can you write that out?

你能写出来吗？

For our business to see this in terms of the revenue growth?

让我们的企业从收入增长的角度来看这一点？

Jiaona Zhang: And I think it's really hard because a lot of times, you get your data scientists, you get the PM themselves being like, "Oh man, I'm owning an input metric, not an output metric.

Jiaona 张：我认为这真的很难，因为很多时候，你的数据科学家、PM 自己都会说，“天啊，我拥有一个输入指标，而不是一个输出指标。

And so I definitely can't sign up for that revenue target because I have an input metric." And all of those things are true, but if you don't do the homework of really drawing that line of being like, "This is the ultimate thing I want to do for the company and for my users," then a lot of times you end up hitting all your OKRs, but the company and your users at large are like, "I don't feel anything different." Your company doesn't look at the things that you've worked on and they don't say like "This is a smashing success." Your users are feeling no differently.

所以我绝对不能签署这个收入目标，因为我有一个输入指标。”所有这些都是事实，但如果你不做功课，真正划清界限，“这是我想为公司和我的用户做的最终事情”，那么很多时候你最终会达到所有 OKR，但公司和广大用户会说，“我没有感觉到任何不同。”你的公司不会关注你所做的事情，也不会说“这是一个巨大的成功”。您的用户也没有什么不同的感觉。

And so that is the worst outcome in my head where your OKRs, you're almost like doing OKRs for the sake of OKRs, as opposed to letting them be a guide to delivering really great product to your end customer.

因此，在我看来，这是最糟糕的结果，您的 OKR 几乎就像是为了 OKR 而进行 OKR，而不是让它们成为向最终客户提供真正出色的产品的指南。

Lenny: I like the idea of that, but imagine what often happens is you sign up for an ambitious OKR, you don't wait till the last second to commit to it and then ends up being red, and then you go into performance reviews and like, "Oh, Lenny didn't hit his OKRs.

莱尼：我喜欢这个想法，但想象一下经常发生的情况是，你签署了一个雄心勃勃的 OKR，你没有等到最后一秒才承诺它，然后最终被红色，然后你进入绩效评估，就像，“哦，莱尼没有达到他的 OKR。

Look at this guy.

看看这个家伙。

His team is not doing great." How do you think about that as a product leader understanding if the team actually did well and the PM is performing well when they sign up for these really ambitious OKRs and their story's great and they're doing the right thing, but they fail?

他的团队表现不佳。”作为一个产品负责人，当他们签署了这些雄心勃勃的 OKR 并且他们的故事很棒并且他们正在做正确的事情，但他们失败了时，你如何看待这个问题？

Jiaona Zhang: First of all, I think it's creating a culture where you are not punished for that.

张娇娜：首先，我认为这是在创造一种文化，让你不会因此受到惩罚。

Because I definitely don't want a culture where it's like you took a risk and you failed and therefore your performance is impacted.

因为我绝对不想要一种你冒了风险却失败了、因此你的表现受到影响的文化。

I'd much rather people take risks than to be safe.

我宁愿人们冒险而不是安全。

So I think that's the first thing.

所以我认为这是第一件事。

That being said, you're also not doing a good job as a PM if you're like, "This is my super, super ambitious thing," and you're like, "I have no idea how to achieve it." Your job is to dream big and also have a plan to go tackle it.

话虽这么说，如果你说，“这是我超级、超级雄心勃勃的事情”，并且你会说，“我不知道如何实现它”，那么你作为产品经理的工作也做得不好。你的工作就是要有远大的梦想，并制定一个计划去实现它。

And so what I would expect the PM to be able to say is, "This is my North Star.

因此，我希望总理能够说的是：“这是我的北极星。

I'm not going to be able to do that in a quarter, that just is unreasonable, but here are the five milestones," whatever number, some number of milestones "That it's going to take me to do quarter over quarter to achieve this really, really ambitious thing.

我不可能在一个季度内做到这一点，这是不合理的，但这里有五个里程碑，”无论是多少，一定数量的里程碑“我需要一个季度一个季度地努力才能实现这个真正非常雄心勃勃的事情。

And let me draw you that path.

让我为你画出那条路。

Here's the milestone all the way across, and this is the first one.

这是一路上的里程碑，这是第一个。

This is why it's so meaningful."

这就是为什么它如此有意义。”

Jiaona Zhang: So I expect that combination where you're like, "I know where I'm going.

张娇娜：所以我期待这样的组合，“我知道我要去哪里。

It's really, really ambitious." And then you can then break it down.

这真的非常非常雄心勃勃。”然后你就可以把它分解了。

But again, I would much rather have someone shoot for the moon, even for someone to say like "This is the thing I really want to do.

但再说一遍，我更愿意有人去登月，即使有人说“这就是我真正想做的事情。

I don't know my path yet" than to be really, really safe.

我还不知道我的路”，而不是真正非常安全。

Because when you're safe, you're always going to be building something suboptimal.

因为当你安全时，你总是会构建一些次优的东西。

It's going to be suboptimal use of your resources as opposed to actually trying to figure out what the best swing that you can take is.

这将是对你的资源的次优利用，而不是真正尝试找出你可以采取的最佳挥杆方式。

Lenny: So it sounds like it comes back to the story of the roadmap and what they're trying to accomplish, and just as long as it feels like the story made sense, there's a path there.

莱尼：听起来这又回到了路线图的故事以及他们想要实现的目标，只要感觉这个故事有意义，那就有一条路。

The team did their best, I think we know it was really ambitious.

团队竭尽全力，我想我们知道这确实雄心勃勃。

We kind of knew maybe they wouldn't get there.

我们有点知道他们可能不会到达那里。

It sounds like that's kind of the thing you look for in a performance of the PM.

听起来这就是你在总理的表演中寻找的东西。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I mentioned WeWork and I want to spend a little time on WeWork.

我提到了 WeWork，我想在 WeWork 上花一点时间。

You were at WeWork for about a year, and I think it was in the middle of a lot of the craziness that went on at WeWork.

您在 WeWork 工作了大约一年，我认为那是在 WeWork 发生的许多疯狂事件的中间。

Jiaona Zhang: It was.

张娇娜：是的。

It was 2019, I feel like that year it was either headlines were either about Trump or about WeWork in the news.

那是 2019 年，我觉得那一年的头条新闻要么是关于特朗普的，要么是关于 WeWork 的。

Lenny: That's tough.

莱尼：这很难。

So what was that like being a PM leader at a company in that craziness?

那么，在一家公司担任 PM 领导者是一种怎样的疯狂体验呢？

And is there a takeaway from that experience that helps you be a better product manager, a leader, person?

这段经历是否可以帮助你成为一名更好的产品经理、领导者或个人？

Jiaona Zhang: Yeah, I learned a lot from my time there.

张娇娜：是的，我在那里学到了很多东西。

I think the most important lesson I learned was really around...

我认为我学到的最重要的一课实际上是......

I think there's like a people leader management lesson, and then there's also just like a how do you build an org period.

我认为这就像一个人员领导者管理课程，然后还有一个如何建立组织的课程。

The people lesson I learned was just really around empathy.

我学到的与人相处的教训实际上是围绕同理心。

In fact, essentially what I was doing was I built a team.

事实上，本质上我所做的就是建立一个团队。

I spent the first six months of my time there actually growing my team a lot, and not just in the US but in Asia and in Europe.

我在那里度过了前六个月，实际上我的团队得到了很大的发展，不仅在美国，而且在亚洲和欧洲。

And then the second half of my time there was actually being like, "What do we do?

然后我的后半段时间实际上是这样的，“我们该怎么办？

If this is what's happening with WeWork, what are we actually going to do with all of these people who have come to WeWork to work?"

如果这就是 WeWork 所发生的情况，那么我们到底要如何对待所有来 WeWork 工作的人呢？”

Jiaona Zhang: And there was so many lessons there around leadership, around how do you think about people?

张娇娜：那里有很多关于领导力、关于你如何看待人的课程？

How do you think about giving them the right transition plans?

您如何看待为他们提供正确的过渡计划？

It was a lot of learning.

这是一个很多学习的过程。

And I think probably a lot of people, even right now through the macroeconomic downturn, they're learning that lesson in a really hard way.

我认为可能很多人，即使是在宏观经济低迷时期，他们也正在以非常艰难的方式吸取这一教训。

And so it was definitely something that I got a crash course on, I think early.

所以这绝对是我上过速成班的东西，我想很早就这样了。

Jiaona Zhang: And the second lesson really was around not over-hiring.

张娇娜：第二个教训确实是关于不要过度招聘。

And so I think that was huge, and I think I personally learned that lesson through my time there.

所以我认为这是巨大的，我想我个人是通过在那里的时间学到了这一教训。

And it's something that I'm very conscious of at any company that I go to.

在我去的任何一家公司中，我都非常清楚这一点。

Just because laying off half your team is a terrible feeling.

只是因为解雇一半的团队是一种可怕的感觉。

Literally having hired people and then having to let them go, it's not something you want to do.

从字面上看，雇用了人员然后不得不解雇他们，这不是您想要做的事情。

And so being really thoughtful around how do we not over-hire?

因此，我们要认真思考如何才能不过度招聘？

How are we really clear about, again, these milestones of we got to get through these gates, we got to be able to show these types of results, and then we unlock hiring in X, Y, Z ways?

我们如何真正清楚我们必须通过这些大门，我们必须能够展示这些类型的结果，然后我们以 X、Y、Z 方式解锁招聘？

That hygiene is really, really important.

卫生真的非常非常重要。

Lenny: Feels like this connects back to the Airbnb Plus story of "Let's just be really ambitious.

Lenny：感觉这与 Airbnb Plus 的故事“让我们真正雄心勃勃。

We don't have any idea how we're going to get there, but we're just going to go for it, hire like crazy, scale, put a lot of investment in this thing and hopefully we'll figure it out."

我们不知道如何实现这一目标，但我们只是会努力，疯狂招聘，扩大规模，在这件事上投入大量投资，希望我们能解决这个问题。”

Jiaona Zhang: I do think there was a little bit of that in the ethos of how WeWork was functioning, for sure.

张娇娜：我确实认为 WeWork 的运作方式确实有一点这样的精神。

I think that what was really important for us to do was to be like, "We have this." Operationally, WeWork is really strong.

我认为对我们来说真正重要的是“我们有这个”。从运营上来说，WeWork 确实很强大。

In fact, I went to WeWork because having been at Airbnb, I was like, "I don't feel like we've dialed this operational muscle down," but I know from what I've seen and the way WeWork has expanded, that they're really, really excellent at the operations.

事实上，我之所以选择 WeWork，是因为在 Airbnb 工作过，我当时想，“我不觉得我们已经削弱了运营能力”，但从我所看到的以及 WeWork 的扩张方式来看，我知道他们在运营方面真的非常非常出色。

But I think it was, again, we hired beyond our skis on the tech side.

但我认为，我们再次在技术方面聘请了滑雪板之外的人员。

It's like we don't need a team of this size to go do the things that are needed for the product to feel really great.

就好像我们不需要这样规模的团队来完成让产品感觉非常棒所需的事情。

At the end of the day, it's about booking.

归根结底，就是预订。

And yes, there's technology that would accelerate that, but do we need it to be super platform aware?

是的，有技术可以加速这一过程，但我们是否需要它具有超级平台意识？

Do we need it to be super futuristic?

我们需要它具有超级未来感吗？

That's actually not what people care about.

这其实不是人们关心的。

Jiaona Zhang: So this all goes back to what are people's core desires in whatever product that they're using, whatever thing that your business is trying to serve them?

张娇娜：所以这一切都可以追溯到人们对他们使用的任何产品的核心需求是什么，无论你的企业试图为他们提供什么服务？

And so really understanding that will help you have a sense of, "Hey, you can still be really ambitious." Again, in a hybrid world, it's like why have real dedicated office space?

所以真正理解这一点将帮助你有一种感觉，“嘿，你仍然可以非常雄心勃勃。”同样，在混合世界中，为什么要有真正的专用办公空间？

Every company could go through WeWork as opposed to this dedicated space.

每个公司都可以通过 WeWork 而不是这个专用空间。

That's still a really good idea, that's still a really big vision and a relevant vision, but what's the key piece of that vision?

这仍然是一个非常好的想法，这仍然是一个非常大的愿景和相关的愿景，但是该愿景的关键部分是什么？

The key piece of that vision is around inventory, and then you make that inventory management easier.

该愿景的关键部分是库存，然后您可以使库存管理变得更加容易。

You make all of these things easier, but that's not a technology play in the same way as it is an operational play.

你让所有这些事情变得更容易，但这不是技术游戏，而是操作游戏。

So just really understanding, again, you can still dream really big, but you don't have to dream big and hire big in all the things in order to have a very ambitious vision that you deliver to the market.

因此，只要真正理解，您仍然可以有远大的梦想，但您不必有远大的梦想并在所有事情上雇用大人才，以便拥有向市场交付的非常雄心勃勃的愿景。

Lenny: If you think back to WeWork, what was your favorite memory and what was your hardest, least happy memory if anything comes to mind?

Lenny：如果你回想一下 WeWork，你最喜欢的记忆是什么？如果有的话，你最难受、最不快乐的记忆是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: I think this idea dream really big.

张娇娜：我觉得这个想法梦想真的很大。

I think everyone who had joined WeWork, they were like, "We could do a lot here." The idea of really the physical space infusing technology.

我想每个加入 WeWork 的人都会说，“我们可以在这里做很多事情。”真正将物理空间融入技术的想法。

I just feel like the people at WeWork were dreamers in the best possible way.

我只是觉得 WeWork 的人都是最好的梦想家。

So that definitely...

那么这绝对是...

I feel like for every company that I've been at, it's really about, you join...

我觉得对于我去过的每一家公司来说，真正重要的是，你加入......

I personally joined for the product, but I stayed for the people you joined because you're like, "I want to work on this mission.

我个人加入是为了这个产品，但我留下来是为了你加入的人，因为你会说，“我想完成这个使命。

This product is really motivating." And then you really stay for the people.

这个产品真的很激励人。”然后你就真正为人民而停留。

And the people at We WeWork were really great.

We WeWork 的员工真的很棒。

So that was definitely my favorite memory.

所以那绝对是我最喜欢的记忆。

Jiaona Zhang: I think the hardest memory was, this gets a little bit personal, but I was actually in my first trimester when we were going through all of these layoffs and I basically was faced with a choice.

张娇娜：我认为最难的记忆是，这有点个人化，但实际上我正处于怀孕的前三个月，当时我们正在经历所有这些裁员，我基本上面临着一个选择。

It was like, "Hey, do I stay at WeWork?

就像是，“嘿，我要留在 WeWork 吗？

I would be guaranteed maternity leave." I was going to be moved onto this other team that was definitely going to stay.

我将得到保证的产假。”我将被转移到另一个肯定会留下来的团队。

"Do I do that or do I actually..." And I think there just a last piece of...

“我是这么做的还是我真的……”我想还有最后一点……

The thing I was wrestling with is I hired a lot of these people and I felt really responsible for the fact that I convinced them to come to this company that now was going through a lot of change.

我一直在纠结的是，我雇佣了很多这样的人，我觉得自己对说服他们来到这家正在经历很多变革的公司负有真正的责任。

Jiaona Zhang: And I specifically remember someone when I hired them, we had a long conversation about their visa and in my head I was like, "I just don't feel right.

张娇娜：我特别记得当我雇用某人时，我们就他们的签证进行了长时间的交谈，我的脑海里当时想，“我只是感觉不对劲。

Again, laying someone off.

又要裁员了。

That's only going to have so many days to be able to go find their new role." And so the hardest moment, I actually remember this very vividly, "Am I going to take this new role or am I going to put myself on a layoff list essentially and give the role to someone else on the team?" When I really think about it, yes, I was pregnant, but I would have more time and more freedom to go find my next thing versus someone who I brought to the company who was on a visa.

只有这么多天才能找到他们的新角色。”所以最困难的时刻，我实际上非常清楚地记得这一点，“我是要接受这个新角色，还是要把自己放在裁员名单上，然后把这个角色交给团队中的其他人？”当我认真思考时，是的，我怀孕了，但与我带到公司的持签证的人相比，我有更多的时间和更多的自由去寻找我的下一个目标。

Jiaona Zhang: That to me just really stood out and goes back to this concept around leadership is so much about empathy and people as much as it's about understanding your market, your customers, and the strategy of your product.

张娇娜：对我来说，这一点真的很突出，这又回到了领导力的概念，领导力不仅关乎同理心和人，也关乎对市场、客户和产品战略的理解。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

What convinced you eventually to take off and try something different?

是什么说服你最终开始尝试不同的东西？

Jiaona Zhang: I made the call of, in that particular case, I'd give the role to someone else.

张娇娜：我决定，在那种特殊情况下，我会把这个角色交给其他人。

And then once I made that call, I was like, "I got to go find something.

然后当我打完电话后，我就想，“我得去找点东西。

I know that this is my last day, so I have to go find something." And it was really interesting because I actually...

我知道这是我的最后一天，所以我必须去找点东西。”这真的很有趣，因为我实际上......

I went through an interview process.

我经历了面试过程。

I was in my second trimester and then ultimately I chose to join Webflow and I joined when I was literally at the beginning of my third trimester.

当时我正处于妊娠中期，最终我选择加入 Webflow，我在妊娠晚期才加入。

So I had exactly 90 days before my first son was born.

距离我的第一个儿子出生正好还有 90 天。

Lenny: That's a great segue to the question I was going to ask is around your 90-day plan that I know you put a lot of thought into how to think about the first 90 days, but before we get there, the movie on WeWork with Jared Leto, how similar to reality was that brought?

莱尼：这是一个很好的延续，我要问的问题是围绕你的 90 天计划，我知道你花了很多心思思考如何思考前 90 天，但在我们到达那里之前，WeWork 上与杰瑞德·莱托 (Jared Leto) 合作的电影，它与现实有什么相似之处？

Jiaona Zhang: I actually have not watched it.

张娇娜：其实我没看过。

Parent life, you don't have any time.

父母的生活，你没有时间。

And I do think there's...

而且我确实认为有...

I feel like if you ask people at Uber, if they've watched some of the they're like, "It's not for me." Same way why I haven't watched Silicon Valley.

我觉得如果你问 Uber 的人，他们是否看过其中的一些内容，他们会说，“这不适合我。”就像我没看过《硅谷》的原因一样。

You're like, "It's a little too close to home."

你会说，“离家有点太近了。”

Lenny: It was quite a great movie and I really enjoyed it.

莱尼：这是一部非常棒的电影，我真的很喜欢它。

I'm curious how close it was to real life.

我很好奇它与现实生活有多接近。

Okay, so then back to the 90-day questions.

好的，那么回到 90 天的问题。

So I know you spent a lot of time thinking about your first 90 days at Webflow, you're pregnant as you described, and you have a perspective on just how to think about the first 90 days when you join a company.

所以我知道你花了很多时间思考你在 Webflow 的前 90 天，正如你所描述的，你已经怀孕了，并且你对如何思考加入一家公司的前 90 天有自己的看法。

Can you just share what you've learned there, what you recommend there?

您能分享一下您在那里学到的东西以及您在那里推荐的东西吗？

Jiaona Zhang: Yeah, I do think the first 90 days, depending on your role is very different.

张娇娜：是的，我确实认为前90天，根据你的角色有很大不同。

But maybe I'll just talk a little bit about the first 90 days as a head of product.

但也许我只想谈谈作为产品主管的前 90 天。

Because you're like, "Whoa." Or even just as a leader, how do you go in, how do you really absorb all the information and get all the context you need and then affect change?

因为你会说，“哇。”或者甚至只是作为一个领导者，你如何介入，你如何真正吸收所有信息并获得你需要的所有背景，然后影响变革？

And I think what was unique about my first 90 days is it was time bound.

我认为我前 90 天的独特之处在于它是有时间限制的。

It was literally something where you're like, "Sure, I'd love to absorb information for many months, but I just don't have the luxury of the time" and so-

从字面上看，你会说，“当然，我很想花几个月的时间来吸收信息，但我没有那么多时间”，所以——

Lenny: Because you're going to go on mat leave right after?

莱尼：因为你马上就要休病假？

Jiaona Zhang: Because yeah, essentially I was going to go on mat leave.

张娇娜：是的，本质上我是要休病假的。

Jiaona Zhang: That's right.

张娇娜：是的。

And so the biggest things that I thought a lot about for my first 90 days was at the end of the day, yes, you have to really...

因此，在我的前 90 天里，我思考最多的最重要的事情就是在这一天结束时，是的，你必须真的......

The most important thing for anyone's for assigning days is to build context and to build context well.

对于任何人来说，分配日子最重要的是建立背景并建立好背景。

But what I had to think about a lot was, "How do I quickly build context probably faster than I would be given the luxury any other time in my life?" And so I thought a lot about who do I speak to at the company?

但我必须思考的很多问题是，“我如何才能比我一生中任何其他时候获得的奢侈更快地快速构建上下文？”所以我想了很多关于我在公司与谁交谈？

How do I create even just a calendar of speaking to people?

即使只是一个与人交谈的日历，我该如何创建？

Yes, my leadership team, but also across a bunch of functions and then across a bunch of levels.

是的，我的领导团队，但也跨越了一系列职能，然后跨越了许多级别。

So it was really important for me to even start talking to some of the engineers from the team, some of the engineers who had been there for the longest time to really understand, what's hard about our tech stack?

因此，对我来说，开始与团队中的一些工程师交谈非常重要，这些工程师是在那里工作时间最长的一些工程师，以真正了解我们的技术堆栈有什么难点？

What's going on?

发生什么事了？

What's hard about your day to day?

你每天有什么困难？

Jiaona Zhang: And so I actually took time to really think about, "I want to speak to all of these types of people at the company." And I packed my first couple weeks with a lot of those meetings.

张娇娜：所以我实际上花了时间认真思考，“我想和公司里所有这些类型的人交谈。”我在前几周就参加了很多这样的会议。

And so I think that was one piece, which is like how do you build context as quickly as possible?

所以我认为这是一件事情，就像你如何尽快构建上下文一样？

And my tip there is again, it's not just with your peers, it's not even just with your team, but to really think across all the different functions and then think about where you're going to get the most amount of information in that particular function.

我的建议是，这不仅仅是与你的同事，甚至不仅仅是与你的团队，而是要真正考虑所有不同的职能，然后考虑在该特定职能中你将在哪里获得最多的信息。

I think that was one piece of it.

我认为这就是其中的一部分。

Jiaona Zhang: The other piece was I was like, "I'm going to be out." I was only out for two months, but I was like, "That's still a long period of time in the life of a startup." And so what it was really important to me was like, I did not go out having just listened and like "Great, I have the context, I'll see you in two months." But it was really important for me to actually have a plan in place before I went out for my team.

张娇娜：另一件事是我当时想，“我要出去了。”我只离开了两个月，但我想，“对于初创公司来说，这仍然是很长一段时间。”所以对我来说真正重要的是，我没有出去，只是听了然后说“太好了，我有背景，两个月后见。”但对我来说，在为球队效力之前制定一个计划非常重要。

Jiaona Zhang: And so there were pieces where I was like, "I want to first, again, get that lay of the land.

张娇娜：所以有些作品我会想，“我想首先再次了解这方面的情况。

I want to have enough of a strategic, 'Hey, these things make sense.

我想要有足够的战略性，‘嘿，这些事情是有道理的。

Keep going, keep executing.' 'These things don't make sense, let's identify what those things are and let's actually start to do research around these things so that when I do come back, we have a body of work that we can look at and be like, "Okay, this information, this data is making us choose to go down the path." Or "This is a go or no-go decision.

继续前进，继续执行。 “这些事情没有意义，让我们确定这些事情是什么，让我们真正开始围绕这些事情进行研究，这样当我回来时，我们就可以看到一系列工作，然后说，‘好吧，这些信息、这些数据让我们选择走这条路。’”或者“这是一个进行或不进行的决定。

We can make that decision now where we couldn't make that decision before."'"

我们现在可以做出以前无法做出决定的决定。”'”

Jiaona Zhang: So that was another big piece, which is getting all the strategic pieces in place, having a plan laid out and explicitly articulating in that plan, "Keep moving.

张娇娜：所以这是另一个重要的部分，即将所有战略部分落实到位，制定计划并在该计划中明确阐明，“继续前进。

These are things that we got to do a lot more research on." And then assigning people like, "Hey, you're going to do this research and then we're going to come back and talk about it in the two months that I was out." And I also took the time, I actually...

这些是我们必须做更多研究的事情。”然后分配人员，“嘿，你要做这项研究，然后我们会在我离开的两个月内回来讨论它。”我也花了时间，实际上......

Funny story, I think I literally had a board meeting the day before I went in for a checkup, and then in the checkup they're like, "You're in labor." And it was really important for me to do that because I was like, "For the things that I'm seeing, for the gaps that I'm seeing.

有趣的故事，我想我在去检查的前一天确实召开了一次董事会会议，然后在检查中他们就像，“你正在分娩。”这样做对我来说非常重要，因为我想，“对于我所看到的事情，对于我所看到的差距。

I want everyone to be aware.

我希望每个人都知道。

I don't want to just be with one founder.

我不想只和一位创始人在一起。

I want the whole leadership team.

我想要整个领导团队。

I want all the founders, I want the board.

我想要所有的创始人，我想要董事会。

I want everyone to be aware that."

我希望每个人都意识到这一点。”

Jiaona Zhang: For example, engineering hiring was really, really important.

张娇娜：例如，工程招聘非常非常重要。

And I was communicating, "Hey, we are just not staffed in a way where we can deliver some of the ambitious things that we want to do." And so explicitly calling those things out and creating awareness around them and then asking other executives to step in and be accountable, those were big pieces of what I wanted to achieve in my first 90 days.

我的意思是，“嘿，我们的人员配备不足以实现我们想做的一些雄心勃勃的事情。”因此，明确地指出这些事情并提高人们的认识，然后要求其他高管介入并承担责任，这些都是我在前 90 天想要实现的重要目标。

Lenny: So I take notes on this.

莱尼：所以我对此做了笔记。

So the first is just get context, figure out who you need to talk to.

因此，首先就是了解背景，找出你需要与谁交谈。

Is there a tip there of just how many people?

有没有提示一下有多少人？

Because you could do this infinitely, meet everyone eventually.

因为你可以无限地这样做，最终会见到每个人。

How many people did you end up maybe scheduling meetings with?

您最终安排了与多少人会面？

Jiaona Zhang: Definitely everyone on my direct team and definitely everyone on the leadership team, so call it those two combined were maybe, I don't know, like 20 or so people, 25 people.

Jiaona 张：肯定是我直接团队中的每个人，也绝对是领导团队中的每个人，因此，我不知道，这两个人加起来可能是 20 人左右，25 人。

But then it was really about finding the people in the other functions.

但接下来真正的问题是寻找其他职能部门的人员。

And to me, for any given function, it was really getting a read from, again, that leader, but also someone closer to the actual work.

对我来说，对于任何给定的职能，它确实是从那位领导者那里得到的，也是从更接近实际工作的人那里得到的。

And so you look at the functions, whether it's product marketing or engineering, whatever it was.

所以你会关注功能，无论是产品营销还是工程，无论是什么。

Back then I didn't have designs, like design.

那时我还没有设计，比如设计。

And really getting a couple of data points for each one of those functions.

并真正为每个函数获取几个数据点。

So if you add that up, that probably was like 40 to 50 conversations.

所以如果你加起来的话，可能会有 40 到 50 次对话。

But again, if you're doing them back to back and you're really synthesizing, you're actually getting a really good picture of what's going on.

但同样，如果你背靠背地做它们并且你真的在综合，你实际上会对正在发生的事情有一个非常好的了解。

Lenny: And then the second bucket was identify things that need to be shifted, changed, flagged.

莱尼：第二个目标是确定需要转移、更改、标记的内容。

I imagine there's also an element of trust and building trust.

我想还有信任和建立信任的因素。

Was that a part of this, of how you thought about it?

这是你的想法的一部分吗？

Or do you feel like as a product leader coming in that's less essential versus say an new PM joining it?

或者你是否觉得作为产品领导者的加入比新产品经理的加入更重要？

A team as an IC?

一个团队作为IC？

Jiaona Zhang: Trust is so important.

张娇娜：信任非常重要。

Trust is everything.

信任就是一切。

As a PM, the trust that your cross-functional partners have in you, the trust that the CEO has is you...

作为一名产品经理，你的跨职能合作伙伴对你的信任，首席执行官对你的信任......

It's huge.

它是巨大的。

Trust is everything.

信任就是一切。

And maybe here, I'll even talk about some of the mistakes I made in the first 90 days.

也许在这里，我什至会谈谈我在前 90 天所犯的一些错误。

I think I was so much like, "I only have 90 days.

我想我当时非常想，“我只有 90 天。

I got to go, go, go.

我得走了，走，走。

We got to go." I was almost pushing too hard.

我们得走了。”我几乎用力过猛了。

I was pushing too hard for change.

我太努力地推动改变了。

I think that's the tricky part that every product leader, especially if they're coming into a new role, has to figure out how do I gain trust and then take that trust and then push for change as opposed to push for change too quickly before I have that trust?

我认为这是一个棘手的部分，每个产品领导者，尤其是当他们进入新角色时，都必须弄清楚如何获得信任，然后接受这种信任，然后推动变革，而不是在获得这种信任之前太快推动变革？

Jiaona Zhang: So again, it was a personal learning and I think part of it was really driven by the time-bound nature of it, but hopefully not everyone has only 90 days.

张娇娜：再说一次，这是一次个人学习，我认为其中一部分确实是由它的时间限制性质驱动的，但希望不是每个人都只有 90 天。

So if you take that learning into mind, it's really thinking about your trust as a bank.

因此，如果您考虑到这一点，那么实际上就是在考虑您对银行的信任。

It's like you're putting money into your bank and then at some point you're going to take money out, you're going to use that social capital, you're going to use that trust to go push for things, push for change, but you have to be thoughtful about how full your piggy bank is and you don't want to be spending when you don't have the trust in the bank.

这就像你把钱存入银行，然后在某个时候你要取出钱，你要使用社会资本，你要利用这种信任来推动事情，推动变革，但你必须考虑你的存钱罐有多满，当你对银行没有信任时，你不想花钱。

Lenny: What were signs maybe looking back that you didn't necessarily have the trust that you thought you did or you should have had?

莱尼：回顾过去，有哪些迹象表明你不一定拥有你认为自己拥有或应该拥有的信任？

Jiaona Zhang: I think something, a product like Webflow is a very complex product and there are so many pieces to it.

Jiaona 张：我认为像 Webflow 这样的产品是一个非常复杂的产品，它有很多部分。

It's very difficult to learn the product in the first 90 days, especially if I was also prioritizing all these conversations with the team.

在前 90 天内学习该产品非常困难，特别是如果我还优先考虑与团队的所有这些对话。

And so I think that again, without the time constraint, what I would recommend is to be like, "Hey, every product leader has to take the time to really go deep on the product." Given the complexity of Webflow and given the time-bound nature of when I had to go out, and given the fact I really also wanted to build that social context around what is working and not working from a function working together?

因此，我再次认为，在没有时间限制的情况下，我建议的是，“嘿，每个产品负责人都必须花时间真正深入研究产品。”考虑到 Webflow 的复杂性，考虑到我必须外出的时间限制性，考虑到我真的也想围绕一个共同工作的功能，围绕什么有效、什么无效来构建社交环境？

Not just what the product is.

不仅仅是产品是什么。

What I wasn't able to do was spend enough time with the product to be able to have all of that in my back pocket to be able to be like, "Oh, I know how this, this and this works because I've literally used it a bunch."

我无法做的是花足够的时间在产品上，以便能够将所有这些都放在我的后口袋里，以便能够像“哦，我知道这个、这个和这个是如何工作的，因为我确实已经使用了它很多次了。”

Jiaona Zhang: So you had to choose.

张娇娜：所以你必须做出选择。

And in my head I was like, "I would much rather understand how the team is functioning together." And the reality is the team was comprised of a lot of people with a lot of deep product context.

在我的脑海里，我想，“我更愿意了解团队是如何一起运作的。”事实上，该团队由很多具有深厚产品背景的人组成。

So ultimately as all things in product, you know this Lenny, everything's a trade off.

所以最终，就像产品中的所有东西一样，你知道这个莱尼，一切都是权衡的。

And so it's a trade off.

所以这是一个权衡。

And so you had to make the call of what you wanted to trade off.

所以你必须做出你想要权衡的决定。

And the thing I traded off the most was that product context in my first 90 days.

在我的前 90 天里，我牺牲最大的是产品环境。

And again, it got me some things because I was able to have the time to go deep on the things I mentioned, but it didn't give me enough trust in the piggy bank around the actual product fundamentals or product, the actual thing we're building as opposed to the discipline.

再说一次，它给了我一些东西，因为我能够有时间深入研究我提到的事情，但它并没有让我对围绕实际产品基本原理或产品的存钱罐有足够的信任，我们正在构建的实际东西而不是学科。

Lenny: So at this point you've worked at four legendary companies, Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, Webflow.

Lenny：到目前为止，您已经在四家传奇公司工作过：Dropbox、Airbnb、WeWork、Webflow。

If we were to just go through each one, what's just one lesson that you take away from each of these companies in terms of how it's informed either how you build product or lead people, anything along those lines?

如果我们要逐一回顾一下，您从这些公司中学到的一个教训是什么，即您如何构建产品或领导人员，或者类似的事情？

Jiaona Zhang: I'm going to actually give you my biggest thing across all four on the product side.

Jiaona 张：实际上，我将在产品方面向您介绍我在这四个方面中最重要的内容。

And then on the people side.

然后是人民方面。

There are so many nuances also, and we could spend another two hours talking about each one of these.

还有很多细微差别，我们可以再花两个小时来讨论其中的每一个。

But I think just to impart my biggest high level learning.

但我认为只是为了传授我最大的高水平学习。

On the product side, it's about really understanding why people love you and not forgetting to invest deeply in that core concept and then building everything around that.

在产品方面，要真正理解人们为什么爱你，不要忘记深入投资这个核心概念，然后围绕它构建一切。

And so I'll walk you through the different companies.

因此，我将引导您了解不同的公司。

So specifically for Dropbox, I think we did waste cycles where we would be like, "Oh, we see X happening in the market.

因此，特别是对于 Dropbox，我认为我们做了浪费循环，我们会说，“哦，我们看到市场上正在发生 X。

Slack is really taking off.

Slack 确实正在起飞。

Why don't we build a Slack competitor?

我们为什么不建立一个 Slack 竞争对手呢？

Or why don't we build chat?" And I think that it really missed this idea of, "Why do people love Dropbox and what do we need to do to continue investing in that so that remains true?" People love Dropbox for simplicity, for how delightful it is, how easy it is to use.

或者我们为什么不建立聊天功能？”而且我认为它确实错过了这样一个想法：“为什么人们喜欢 Dropbox，我们需要做什么才能继续投资以保持这一点？”人们喜欢 Dropbox，因为它的简单性，因为它是多么令人愉快，使用起来多么容易。

Jiaona Zhang: I think we actually went for a period of time where we didn't invest enough in just performance of our client.

张娇娜：我认为我们实际上有一段时间没有对客户的绩效进行足够的投资。

How long it takes for the thing to sync is a big part of the experience of using Dropbox.

同步内容所需的时间是 Dropbox 使用体验的重要组成部分。

And so I think that is a big, big learning where it's really understanding that would've shifted your investments into doing that performance work as opposed to chasing the competitive space.

因此，我认为这是一个非常非常大的学习，真正了解它会将您的投资转移到绩效工作上，而不是追逐竞争空间。

And I think going back to chasing the competitive space, it's this idea of what is your alpha?

我认为回到追逐竞争空间，你的阿尔法是什么？

Again, why do people come to you?

再说一遍，人们为什么来找你？

People come to Dropbox again for all the things I mentioned, but also ultimately we have your files.

人们再次来到 Dropbox 是为了我提到的所有事情，但最终我们也拥有了您的文件。

So if you're going and building a chat product, that's fine, but really the best chat experience or collaboration experience is going to be more around your files as opposed to around just the conversation.

因此，如果您要构建一个聊天产品，那很好，但实际上最好的聊天体验或协作体验将更多地围绕您的文件，而不是仅仅围绕对话。

So I think really understanding that is a huge, huge learning.

所以我认为真正理解这一点是一个巨大的学习。

Jiaona Zhang: And I think that same lesson can be...

张娇娜：我认为同样的教训可以......

It's very true for Airbnb.

对于 Airbnb 来说更是如此。

So at the end of the day, Airbnb is known for all the homes, the fact that these are homes that real people put on the platform.

因此，归根结底，Airbnb 因所有房屋而闻名，事实上这些房屋都是真实的人们放置在平台上的。

We spent some time talking about Airbnb Plus.

我们花了一些时间讨论 Airbnb Plus。

When you are thinking "I got to go in and I got to manage the inventory and inspect it," you're almost like taking away from the thing that is what makes Air Airbnb special as opposed to leaning into it.

当你在想“我必须进去，我必须管理库存并检查它”时，你几乎就像是在拿走 Air Airbnb 的特殊之处，而不是依靠它。

We also spend a lot of time on experiences.

我们也花了很多时间在体验上。

We dabbled in transportation, we spent a bunch of times on other things.

我们涉足交通，我们在其他事情上花了很多时间。

But if you really sat back and you're like, "What makes Air Airbnb special and how do you double down on your strength?" It's spending the time to make that experience of really understanding what's in a home so people don't go and get surprised.

但如果你真的坐下来，你会想，“Air Airbnb 有何特别之处，你如何加倍发挥你的实力？”它花时间让人们真正了解家里有什么，这样人们就不会感到惊讶。

Making that onboarding journey for the host and then discovery journey and guest booking journey really, really great.

让主人的入住之旅、发现之旅和客人预订之旅真的非常非常棒。

Jiaona Zhang: So I think that that same lesson when applied to Airbnb, would've in my head changed the way we invested and I think we would've gotten more returns, as opposed to spreading ourselves and then having things that sort of work but then didn't quite work.

张娇娜：所以我认为，同样的经验如果应用到 Airbnb 上，会在我的脑海中改变我们的投资方式，我认为我们会获得更多的回报，而不是分散我们自己，然后做一些有用但后来不太有效的事情。

And then again, same principle applies to WeWork, what is the thing that makes you really special?

话又说回来，同样的原则也适用于 WeWork，是什么让你真正与众不同？

It's the inventory it.

就是库存吧

It's not actually like, "Oh, it's so amazing that I get to use this key card and this key card does 10 different things." That's not what makes the WeWork experience special.

实际上并不是这样的，“哦，太神奇了，我可以使用这张钥匙卡，而且这张钥匙卡可以做 10 种不同的事情。”这并不是 WeWork 体验的特别之处。

And so again, if you knew that you wouldn't spend all that time being like, "I'm going to really deeply invest in the tech team, I'm going to do all these interesting things." You'd be like, "I just need to make inventory management great.

再说一次，如果你知道你不会花那么多时间，“我将真正深入地投资于技术团队，我将做所有这些有趣的事情。”你可能会说，“我只需要让库存管理变得更好。

I need to make it so that the sales team, the operations team, they have the tools they need to go out and get the inventory on the platform." You wouldn't do all this other stuff that's just not the core.

我需要让销售团队、运营团队拥有走出去并在平台上获取库存所需的工具。”你不会做所有其他非核心的事情。

Jiaona Zhang: And then finally, even at Webflow, we are learning this lesson all the time where at the end of the day, people really love our designer.

Jiaona 张：最后，即使在 Webflow，我们也一直在学习这个教训，最终，人们真的很喜欢我们的设计师。

They love the fact that they can use it.

他们喜欢可以使用它。

It does so much for them, it's so powerful.

它为他们做了很多事情，它是如此强大。

And then you add our CMS and it's really powerful.

然后添加我们的 CMS，它真的很强大。

You can design with data.

您可以用数据进行设计。

So investing deeply there as opposed to spreading ourselves too thin is also a lesson.

因此，深入投资而不是把自己分散得太薄也是一个教训。

I think across so many companies this lesson around understand why people love you, double down on that and then whatever else you build around it...

我认为在很多公司中，这一课都围绕着理解为什么人们爱你，加倍努力，然后围绕它构建任何其他东西......

Because again, you don't want to also be like...

因为同样，你不想也像......

You're not like a single product company, you're not like a one trick pony.

你不像一家单一产品的公司，你不像一匹只会耍花招的小马。

You are going to invest in these multi products, but when you invest in a new product, really go back to, again, what's the core of our advantage and how can that be something we leverage in delivering a really great product experience for our users in X adjacent area or x add-on?

您将投资这些多种产品，但是当您投资新产品时，再次真正回到我们的核心优势是什么，以及我们如何利用它为 X 相邻区域或 x 附加产品的用户提供真正出色的产品体验？

Lenny: Final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，最后一个问题。

Lenny: What is the best advice that you've gotten that has transformed or impacted the way you build product or hire or lead?

Lenny：您得到的、改变或影响您构建产品、招聘或领导方式的最佳建议是什么？

Does anything come to mind?

有什么想到的吗？

Jiaona Zhang: I can't remember where I explicitly got this advice, but I feel like I got it in multiple forms and it just really sat with me.

张娇娜：我不记得我在哪里明确得到这个建议，但我觉得我以多种形式得到了它，而且它真的让我很感动。

It's this idea of asking for help.

这就是寻求帮助的想法。

I do think about that a lot because I think there are so many times when you're like, "Oh, I'm the leader of X thing, everyone's looking to me like the stops in me.

我确实经常思考这个问题，因为我认为很多时候你会想，“哦，我是 X 事物的领导者，每个人都像看着我一样看着我。

I need to have my act together.

我需要齐心协力。

I can't be asking for help.

我不能寻求帮助。

If I'm asking for help, is everyone feel like I don't know what I'm doing?"

如果我寻求帮助，每个人都会觉得我不知道自己在做什么吗？”

Jiaona Zhang: And ever since I've been people managing, I've been pushing myself to be like, "I know it feels non-intuitive to go ask for help when everyone is looking to for you to give them advice, but if you don't ask for help, there's so many times where you're just going to be sitting there with your problems.

张娇娜：自从我从事人员管理以来，我一直强迫自己这样说：“我知道当每个人都希望你给他们提供建议时去寻求帮助感觉不直观，但如果你不寻求帮助，很多时候你就会坐在那里解决你的问题。

Whatever you have in your mind is just not the global best thing and you have to go ask for help.

无论你的想法都不是全球最好的，你必须去寻求帮助。

You have to go ask for help from your partners, your peers, even your team, even being my team, I don't know.

你必须去向你的合作伙伴、你的同事、甚至你的团队、甚至是我的团队寻求帮助，我不知道。

I really don't know.

我真的不知道。

Here's the guidelines, here's how you might want to think about it, but I don't know the answer, you know the answer." Going out and getting mentorship.

这是指导方针，这是你可能想要思考的方式，但我不知道答案，你知道答案。”走出去并获得指导。

I think this idea of really being able to say, "Be honest about what you know and what you don't know and ask for help when you don't know something," that's probably the biggest thing that I hold as a core principle and just helps me build better products.

我认为真正能够说“诚实地对待你所知道的和你不知道的事情，并在你不知道的时候寻求帮助”的想法，这可能是我作为核心原则所坚持的最重要的事情，并且只会帮助我构建更好的产品。

Lenny: What's something that you've asked for help about recently as an example?

莱尼：举个例子，你最近寻求帮助的事情是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: So I'm working on our product strategy for the next three years.

张娇娜：所以我正在制定未来三年的产品策略。

I'm thinking a lot about how do we really leverage AI to support all of our service providers and support all our users who come into Webflow and have a hard time sometimes learning how to use our product.

我思考了很多关于我们如何真正利用人工智能来支持我们所有的服务提供商，并支持所有进入 Webflow 的用户，这些用户有时很难学习如何使用我们的产品。

And so I'm not an AI expert, so asking for help from the founders, from external folks, from engineers to be like, "What's happening?" Every single week I feel like LLMs are changing.

所以我不是人工智能专家，所以向创始人、外部人员、工程师寻求帮助，比如“发生了什么事？”我感觉法学硕士每周都在发生变化。

What's possible in the world is changing.

世界上的可能性正在发生变化。

And so constantly asking for help to iterate on the strategy is a huge part of...

因此，不断寻求帮助来迭代策略是......的一个重要组成部分。

It's happening every day for me and my job.

对于我和我的工作来说，这种事每天都在发生。

Lenny: JZ, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny：JZ，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've most recommended to other people?

莱尼：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: I love the Design Sprint by Google.

张娇娜：我喜欢谷歌的设计冲刺。

I also really Julie's book around managing people how to be a good manager.

我也很喜欢朱莉关于管理人员如何成为一名优秀经理的书。

That one's really great.

那个真的太棒了

And so those are my more business side of the house books.

这些是我更多的家庭书籍的业务方面。

And then we can also talk about fantasy stuff if you want.

如果你愿意的话，我们还可以谈论幻想的东西。

But-

但是——

Lenny: Yeah, give us some recs there.

莱尼：是的，给我们一些建议。

Jiaona Zhang: I'm a big fan of Brandon Sanderson.

张娇娜：我是布兰登·桑德森的忠实粉丝。

He completed the Wheel of Time series on behalf of the author.

他代表作者完成了《时光之轮》系列。

He has the Mistborn series and so he's a great one.

他有《迷雾之子》系列，所以他是一个很棒的人。

He actually has this...

他其实有这个……

During the pandemic, he holed up and wrote a bunch of books and Vince was like, "I have a confession to make.

在大流行期间，他躲起来写了一堆书，文斯说：“我有一个坦白。

I wrote four extra books." And the latest one is Tress by the Emerald Sea that I really love.

我额外写了四本书。”最新的一部是我非常喜欢的《翡翠海边的特雷斯》。

Lenny: I saw the video of him sharing that news and he's just like, "I wrote a book during COVID" and then, "Okay, I wrote a second book and then, oh, I wrote a third book also" and it just keeps going.

莱尼：我看到他分享这个消息的视频，他说，“我在新冠疫情期间写了一本书”，然后，“好吧，我写了第二本书，然后，哦，我也写了第三本书”，然后就这样继续下去。

Jiaona Zhang: I think he was like, "I have a secret or I have a confession to make." And everyone was like, "Oh no, are you going to say that you have a ghost writer because you're so prolific?" And he's like, "Nope, I just wrote four more books."

张娇娜：我认为他就像是，“我有一个秘密，或者我有一个坦白。”每个人都说，“哦，不，你会说你有一个代笔作家，因为你多产吗？”他说：“不，我刚刚又写了四本书。”

Lenny: What a beast.

莱尼：真是个野兽。

Next question on that topic a little bit.

下一个问题是关于这个话题的。

What's a favorite recent movie or a TV show that you watched?

您最近观看的最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

And I know you said you don't get to watch much, but anything come to mind?

我知道你说过你不会看太多，但有什么想到的吗？

Jiaona Zhang: I feel like every night I'm watching Sesame Street like songs.

张娇娜：我感觉每天晚上我都像看歌一样看《芝麻街》。

We don't do TV, but we do do YouTube songs.

我们不制作电视，但制作 YouTube 歌曲。

I honestly don't have an answer to that other than we watch the Elmo song and the ABC song with my three year old.

老实说，除了我们和我三岁的孩子一起看 Elmo 的歌曲和 ABC 的歌曲之外，我对此没有任何答案。

Lenny: There's been a lot of parenting advice on this podcast with my child coming soon.

莱尼：这个播客上有很多关于我的孩子即将出生的育儿建议。

And so this is very on brand.

所以这非常符合品牌。

Before we started this, you mentioned the painting behind you is referenced in like Arcane, it's connected to or the show Arcane, which I imagine-

在我们开始之前，你提到你身后的那幅画像《奥术》一样被引用，它与《奥术》节目有关，我想——

Jiaona Zhang: Yes.

张娇娜：是的。

I'm a big fan.

我是它的忠实粉丝。

So painted this a long time ago before Jinx and Vi were a thing, and when Arcane was made, both my husband and I were like, "What?

所以很久以前就画了这个，当时金克丝和蔚还没有出现，当奥术被制作出来时，我和我丈夫都想，“什么？

How did we predict this?

我们是如何预测这一点的？

This is amazing." So it's a good one.

这太棒了。”所以这是一件好事。

Lenny: There we go.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

Some adult content.

一些成人内容。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: I do like to do behavioral questions, just really understanding when they've been in challenging situations, when they've been in ambiguous situations, how do they navigate ambiguity?

张娇娜：我确实喜欢做行为问题，只是真正了解当他们处于挑战性的情况下，当他们处于模棱两可的情况下时，他们如何应对模棱两可的情况？

Is a big one for me because at the end of the day, the PM job is really ambiguous.

对我来说这是一件大事，因为归根结底，PM 的工作确实很模糊。

It's really hard to describe on a piece of paper all the things that you're going to encounter.

在一张纸上描述你将遇到的所有事情真的很难。

So asking a lot of behavioral questions around that.

因此，围绕这个问题提出了很多行为问题。

Lenny: And is there anything specific you look for in their answer that tells you this is a good answer or not a good answer?

莱尼：您在他们的答案中是否有任何具体的东西可以告诉您这是一个好答案还是不是一个好答案？

Jiaona Zhang: Yeah.

张娇娜：是的。

Good answers are people who put structure and a way forward through the ambiguity.

好的答案是那些能够在模糊性中提出结构和前进方向的人。

That's what you look for.

这就是您所寻找的。

You want your PM to not just be like, "Oh no, we're swimming in ambiguity," but actually put a path forward.

你希望你的产品经理不只是说“哦，不，我们陷入了模棱两可的境地”，而是实际上提出了一条前进的道路。

I think also looking for people who are seeking help, seeking those inputs as opposed to being like, "Yep, this is the way.

我认为还要寻找寻求帮助的人，寻求这些意见，而不是说“是的，就是这样。

This is very clear." Because again, the chances of whatever path you chart out for any product, for anything that you're doing is the right path from the first time that you do it, so rare.

这非常清楚。”因为，你为任何产品、为你正在做的任何事情制定的任何路径从你第一次做起就是正确的路径，这是非常罕见的。

And so I want to see someone be able to get those inputs, be able to say, "This is the path, this is how I learned why I put this path together." And then going back to a lot of the stuff I think we touched upon in this podcast is like, what are the little milestones that make you say, "Hey, is this working?

所以我希望看到有人能够获得这些输入，能够说，“这就是这条路，这就是我学习为什么要把这条路放在一起的方式。”然后回到我认为我们在这个播客中提到的很多内容，比如，哪些小里程碑让你说，“嘿，这有效吗？

Is this not working?" And then make you either make a different decision.

这不行吗？”然后让你做出不同的决定。

Seeing people do that really well is a big thing I look for.

看到人们做得很好是我所寻求的一件大事。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love?

您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: I love...

张娇娜：我爱……

It's not recent, but I do love the SNOO and it's very top of mind because I just graduated my second son from the SNOO and it was a little bit like, "Oh my gosh, no more rocking of the baby." But I do think it does a good job of actually doing the thing and I'm also giving parents peace of mind.

这不是最近的事情，但我确实很喜欢 SNOO，而且它是我最关心的，因为我刚刚从 SNOO 毕业了我的第二个儿子，这有点像，“哦，天哪，不再摇晃婴儿了。”但我确实认为这实际上做得很好，而且我也让父母安心。

Jiaona Zhang: The other thing I'm a big fan of, again, you'll see where my head's at, lots of child related things.

张娇娜：我非常喜欢的另一件事，你会看到我的想法，很多与孩子有关的事情。

Midjourney for your toddler is actually great because instead of it being absolute instant gratification of "I want to see a firetruck," and "Here you go, here's my phone." It's like, "Let's wait for Midjourney to create the firetruck." And specifically you can even tell Midjourney what you want.

对于你的孩子来说，中途实际上很棒，因为它不是“我想看消防车”和“给你，这是我的手机”的绝对即时满足。就像是，“让我们等待 Midjourney 制作消防车吧。”具体来说，您甚至可以告诉 Midjourney 您想要什么。

It could be like, "I would like it to be blue." He's obsessed with Jungle Book, "Wearing a fire hat next to a firetruck." And so you can actually create, and I do believe in the future, so much of what we are going to be doing as humans is literally what is the creative process?

它可能会像“我希望它是蓝色的”。他痴迷于《奇幻森林》，“在消防车旁边戴着消防帽”。所以你实际上可以创造，我确实相信未来，我们作为人类要做的很多事情实际上就是创造过程是什么？

What's the idea?

有什么想法吗？

It's less about executing all the pieces of it, but it's so important to still be able to be like "This is the idea that I want to bring to life." And so I just think training that is huge.

这并不是说执行它的所有部分，但仍然能够像“这就是我想要实现的想法”是非常重要的。所以我认为培训是巨大的。

Lenny: Feels like you've just defined your three-year strategy for Webflow right there with AI.

Lenny：感觉您刚刚用 AI 定义了 Webflow 的三年战略。

Lenny: Next question, what is something that you've changed in the way you build product that might be relatively minor that had a big impact in your team's ability to execute?

Lenny：下一个问题是，您在构建产品的方式上做了哪些改变，这些改变可能相对较小，但却对团队的执行能力产生了重大影响？

Jiaona Zhang: There's so many different things that we've done at all the different companies.

张娇娜：我们在不同的公司做了很多不同的事情。

It really depends on the company.

这确实取决于公司。

And what I mean by that is at a company like Webflow, where the tech stack is complex and where a given feature has so many different interactions, you're like "People depend on this workflow, this thing interacts with this thing.

我的意思是在像 Webflow 这样的公司，技术堆栈很复杂，并且给定的功能有很多不同的交互，你就像“人们依赖于这个工作流程，这个东西与这个东西交互。

It's a whole platform." One of the biggest things we've been tweaking is like how do we do more of a tech spike at the beginning to be like, "Do we have a good sense of how difficult this is going to be?

这是一个完整的平台。”我们一直在调整的最重要的事情之一就是我们如何在一开始就做更多的技术高峰，比如“我们是否清楚地意识到这将有多困难？

The unknowns?

未知数？

Can we get a little bit more detail on them so that we don't go down a path and be like, 'Oh, this doesn't make sense'?" So I feel like that that's a tweak in the process that has really made a big difference at a company like Webflow.

我们能否获得更多关于它们的细节，这样我们就不会走上一条路，然后说，‘哦，这没有意义’？”所以我觉得这是流程中的一个调整，对于 Webflow 这样的公司确实产生了很大的影响。

Jiaona Zhang: But when I look back to other companies, again, that might not be your biggest problem.

张娇娜：但是当我再次回顾其他公司时，这可能不是你们最大的问题。

Another problem could be like, "Hey, it's just so difficult to work with cross-functional partners and doing a little tweak in the process where you bring them in a kickoff meeting." That might be the thing that just changes that dynamic of how you work with teams.

另一个问题可能是，“嘿，与跨职能合作伙伴合作并在让他们参加启动会议的过程中进行一些调整是非常困难的。”这可能会改变你与团队合作的方式。

So it's really...

所以这真的是...

I don't know if there's one thing, but it's almost like every day I'm thinking about small tweaks and process to make all of us more efficient.

我不知道是否有一件事，但几乎每天我都在考虑一些小的调整和流程，以使我们所有人都更有效率。

Lenny: Final question, what is your number one pro-tip for using Webflow and being successful with Webflow?

Lenny：最后一个问题，对于使用 Webflow 并成功使用 Webflow，您的第一条专业建议是什么？

Jiaona Zhang: My number one pro-tip is there's a lot of stuff coming out that I'm very excited about.

张娇娜：我的第一个建议是，有很多东西即将问世，令我感到非常兴奋。

I do think Webflow has traditionally had a high learning curve, and it's because we're a pro tool, we're a professional tool.

我确实认为 Webflow 传统上具有很高的学习曲线，这是因为我们是专业工具，我们是专业工具。

We do really amazing stuff, so much power that we deliver you, but with that power has come with it's hard to learn.

我们做了非常令人惊奇的事情，我们为您提供了如此多的力量，但伴随着这种力量而来的是很难学习。

And so one of the things that I'm really excited about pro-tip for using Webflow in the future is we're really going to bring the magic of Webflow University, the magic of AI, all together so that you can just use and learn Webflow so much faster, learn webflow in the context of what you're doing as opposed to going into a different tab and looking for the Webflow University stuff.

因此，我对未来使用 Webflow 的专业提示感到非常兴奋的一件事是，我们真的将把 Webflow University 的魔力和 AI 的魔力结合在一起，以便您可以更快地使用和学习 Webflow，在您正在做的事情的背景下学习 Webflow，而不是进入不同的选项卡并寻找 Webflow University 的东西。

It's going to be in context to the product, being able to actually take action directly, prompting Webflow to be able to do things for you.

它将在产品的上下文中，能够直接实际采取行动，促使 Webflow 能够为您做事。

It's just going to be so much easier in the future to use the product.

将来使用该产品将会变得更加容易。

That's what I'm excited about.

这就是我感到兴奋的事情。

We're working on it and it will be out in the future.

我们正在努力，它将在未来推出。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

No specific dates yet.

目前还没有具体日期。

Yeah, you could share, this sounds like breaking news of cool stuff coming.

是的，你可以分享，这听起来像是即将到来的酷事的突发新闻。

Jiaona Zhang: Some things are in alpha and beta, but we do want to be developing it with our users and really learning is this the power that you're looking for?

Jiaona 张：有些东西还处于 alpha 和 beta 阶段，但我们确实希望与我们的用户一起开发它，并真正了解这就是您正在寻找的功能吗？

Is this thing that's going to get you over the activation hump that you've struggled with in the past?

这件事能让你克服过去一直困扰的激活难题吗？

Lenny: JZ, I think we've made a maximally lovable podcast episode.

Lenny：JZ，我认为我们制作了一个非常可爱的播客剧集。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

How can listeners find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果听众想要联系您，如何在网上找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Jiaona Zhang: I always love feedback, so if there's feedback on the podcast, send it my way.

Jiaona 张：我总是喜欢反馈，所以如果播客有反馈，请发送给我。

Or even just what would you want to learn?

或者只是你想学什么？

Send it my way.

按我的方式发送。

And the reason I ask that is because I'm actually working on a course, another course through Reforge, which is around managing your PM career.

我之所以这么问，是因为我实际上正在学习一门课程，另一门通过 Reforge 开设的课程，是关于管理你的 PM 职业的。

And so really just...

所以真的只是...

I've talked to so many people advice around their career, but if you want to reach out and be like, "These are the problems that I'm facing," it would actually really help me as I am creating this course, which is going to launch in a couple of months.

我已经和很多人就他们的职业生涯提出了建议，但如果你想伸出援手，说“这些是我面临的问题”，这实际上会对我很有帮助，因为我正在创建这门课程，该课程将在几个月后推出。

And so I'm excited to...

所以我很高兴...

Find me there if you want to chat more and send the problems that you're struggling with when it comes to your career, and that would help me refine my course.

如果您想更多地聊天并发送您在职业生涯中遇到的问题，请找到我，这将帮助我完善我的课程。

Lenny: And that's just reforge.com?

Lenny：那只是 reforge.com？

There's no URL yet specifically for that course?

还没有专门针对该课程的 URL 吗？

Jiaona Zhang: Not yet, but it will come soon.

张娇娜：还没有，但是很快就会有。

And maybe what I'll do is I'll post it on my website, which is built in Webflow, so my full name dotcom.

也许我要做的就是将其发布到我的网站上，该网站是在 Webflow 中构建的，所以我的全名是 dotcom。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

JZ, thank you so much for being here, and thanks again.

JZ，非常感谢您来到这里，再次感谢。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。