'How to see like a designer: The hidden power of typography and logos | Jessica Hische'
Jessica Hische: Most people are better at understanding the feelings and sensations that typography and logos give us than they give themselves credit for, because what we are as people are endless absorbers of patterns, and information, and all this kind of stuff as we move throughout the world.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：大多数人更善于理解排版和徽标给我们带来的感受和感觉，而不是他们自己的信用，因为当我们在世界各地移动时，我们作为人，会不断地吸收模式、信息和所有这些东西。
We don't take time to sit and digest it, but it's still coming in and getting logged, and so even as a non-designer, I think you can look at examples of logos where something's not quite right and be like, "Something's not right here, I just don't know how to name it." But I think a good exercise is just like looking at fonts that are available in the world and asking yourself, "What feeling does this give me?"
我们不会花时间坐下来消化它，但它仍然会进来并被记录下来，所以即使作为一个非设计师，我认为你也可以看看一些不太正确的徽标示例，然后说，“这里有些东西不对劲，我只是不知道如何命名它。”但我认为一个好的练习就像看看世界上可用的字体并问自己，“这给我什么感觉？”
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jessica Hische.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是杰西卡·希什。
Jessica is a design legend, and it was such an honor to both have her on this podcast and also to work with her on a refresh of my newsletter and podcast logo and brand, which is launching around the same time as this episode comes out.
杰西卡是一位设计传奇人物，我很荣幸能邀请她参加这个播客，并与她一起更新我的时事通讯、播客徽标和品牌，该内容与本集发布的时间大约相同。
Jessica is a lettering artist specializing in typographical work for logos, film, books, and other commercial applications.
杰西卡是一位刻字艺术家，专门从事徽标、电影、书籍和其他商业应用的印刷工作。
Her clients include Wes Anderson, the United States Postal Service, Apple, Nike, Tiffany and Company, The Gap, and Penguin Books, and her work has been featured in design and illustration annals, both in the U.S. and internationally.
她的客户包括韦斯·安德森、美国邮政服务、苹果、耐克、蒂芙尼公司、The Gap 和企鹅图书，她的作品已被收录在美国和国际设计和插画年鉴中。
She's helped create logos for Philz Coffee, Eventbrite, and Mailchimp, is a best-selling children's book author, and if you live around the Bay Area, you've seen her work all over the city without knowing it.
她帮助为 Philz Coffee、Eventbrite 和 Mailchimp 创建徽标，是一位畅销儿童读物作者，如果您住在湾区附近，您会在不知不觉中在整个城市看到她的作品。
In our conversation, Jessica shares the process that she went through to update my logo and brand for my newsletter and podcast.
在我们的谈话中，杰西卡分享了她为我的时事通讯和播客更新徽标和品牌的过程。
Lenny Rachitsky: What specific elements of a logo and brand impact how you feel about that brand, why a good enough logo is just buying for a long time for most startups, and when it makes sense to refresh your look, also some really clever productivity tips, design advice, and a bunch of really fun stories.
Lenny Rachitsky：徽标和品牌的哪些具体元素会影响您对该品牌的感觉，为什么大多数初创公司都会长期购买一个足够好的徽标，以及何时需要刷新您的外观，还有一些非常聪明的生产力技巧、设计建议和一堆非常有趣的故事。
Jessica is a master at what she does and I am excited to spread the Jessica Hische gospel.
杰西卡是她所做的事情的大师，我很高兴传播杰西卡·希什的福音。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Jessica Hische.
接下来，我为您带来杰西卡·希什 (Jessica Hische)。
Jessica, thank you so much for being here.
杰西卡，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: I thought it'd be good to start with asking you just to describe what it is you do, because you're very atypical of the kinds of guests I have in this podcast and you also have very unique skillset.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为最好先让您描述一下您的工作，因为您在我这个播客中的嘉宾中非常非典型，而且您也拥有非常独特的技能。
Jessica Hische: Yes.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
Well, I will describe what I'm most prominently known for, because I'm a person who just does a lot of things, but the thing that I do the most professionally is custom typography, like bespoke lettering pieces.
好吧，我将描述我最出名的事情，因为我是一个只做很多事情的人，但我做的最专业的事情是定制字体，比如定制的字体。
That translates to working for all kinds of things.
这意味着为各种各样的事情工作。
Sometimes it's for film and television.
有时是为了电影和电视。
I've done movie titles and things like that and television credits and stuff.
我制作过电影片名之类的东西以及电视片尾之类的东西。
Sometimes it's book covers.
有时是书的封面。
Actually, a lot of times, it's book covers, and then a big part of my business is doing logos, and logo refreshes, and things like that, so basically being the person who knows all the things so you don't have to have that person on staff when it comes to typography.
事实上，很多时候，它是书籍封面，然后我的业务的很大一部分是做标志，标志刷新，以及类似的事情，所以基本上是一个知道所有事情的人，所以在排版方面你不需要让那个人在工作人员中。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the Enterprise Ready Conference, a one-day event in San Francisco bringing together product and engineering leaders shaping the future of enterprise SaaS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterprise Ready Conference 为您带来，这是在旧金山举行的为期一天的活动，汇聚了塑造企业 SaaS 未来的产品和工程领导者。
The event features a curated list of speakers with direct experience building for the enterprise, including leaders from OpenAI, Vanta, Checkr, Dropbox, and Canva.
此次活动精选了一批具有直接企业建设经验的演讲者名单，其中包括来自 OpenAI、Vanta、Checkr、Dropbox 和 Canva 的领导者。
Topics include advanced identity management, compliance, encryption, and logging, essentially at complex features that most enterprise customers require.
主题包括高级身份管理、合规性、加密和日志记录，本质上是大多数企业客户所需的复杂功能。
If you're a founder, exec, product manager, or engineer tasked with the enterprise roadmap, this conference is for you.
如果您是负责制定企业路线图的创始人、执行官、产品经理或工程师，那么本次会议适合您。
You'll get detailed insights from industry leaders that have years of experience navigating the same challenges that you face today.
您将从行业领导者那里获得详细的见解，他们在应对您今天面临的相同挑战方面拥有多年的经验。
Best of all, it's completely free.
最重要的是，它是完全免费的。
Since it's hosted by WorkOS.
因为它是由 WorkOS 托管的。
Spots are filling up quickly, make sure to request an invite at enterpriseready.com.
名额很快就满了，请务必在 enterpriseready.com 上申请邀请。
That's enterpriseready.com.
这就是 enterpriseready.com。
I am excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.
我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。
Hi, Christina.
嗨，克里斯蒂娜。
Christina Gilbert: Yes.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。
Thank you for having me on, Lenny.
谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?
Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？
I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta Scale, and Watershed.
我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta Scale 和 Watershed。
I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.
我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。
Christina Gilbert: Yes.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。
We just launched OneSchema FileFeeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.
我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。
We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds, and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.
我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。
We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.
我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。
Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema, and not just to build it but also to maintain it forever.
Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好，不仅要构建它，而且要永远维护它。
Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。
We've heard so many horror stories of multiday outages from even just a handful of ad records.
我们已经从少量的广告记录中听到了许多多天停机的恐怖故事。
We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.
我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。
We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.
我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。
Christina, thank you for joining us.
克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们。
If you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.
如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。
Lenny Rachitsky: Part of the reason I was excited to have you on this podcast is that I was lucky enough to get to work with you on a refresh of my logo and brand for my newsletter and my podcast, which I'm very, very excited about.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴您能参加这个播客，部分原因是我很幸运能够与您合作，为我的时事通讯和播客更新我的徽标和品牌，对此我非常非常兴奋。
It's actually going to be launching right around the time of this episode going live, so this is, in part, a celebration of the new look, and logo, and brand.
它实际上将在本集上线时推出，因此这在一定程度上是对新外观、标志和品牌的庆祝。
I thought it'd be an awesome excuse to bring you on the podcast and give an inside glimpse into the process of updating a logo and a brand.
我认为这是一个很棒的借口，可以让您参加播客并深入了解更新徽标和品牌的过程。
Partly, because I think it'll just be people are like, "What the hell?
部分原因是，我认为人们会说，“到底是什么？
How did this change?
这是如何改变的？
Where did this come from?
这是从哪里来的？
Why this versus that?" and also just for people that are thinking about this for their own product or business, to understand the process and understand when it might be right for them, when it might be not right for them.
为什么这个和那个？”也只是为了那些为自己的产品或业务考虑这一点的人们，了解这个过程并了解什么时候它可能适合他们，什么时候可能不适合他们。
Broadly, how does that sound?
从广义上讲，这听起来怎么样？
Jessica Hische: Sure.
杰西卡·希什：当然。
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Everybody that starts a company knows that they need a logo.
每个创办公司的人都知道他们需要一个徽标。
That is a big thing.
这是一件大事。
Some people start a company and think the logo is going to drive the culture of the company, which I don't think that that is true.
有些人创办了一家公司，并认为徽标将推动公司文化，但我认为事实并非如此。
I think that the product itself, and the team you build, and the people you put together are the thing that should be driving things forward, but I do think the logo and the brand assets can generate a lot of both internal and external excitement and just tell people what to expect from the thing that they're about to engage with.
我认为产品本身、你建立的团队以及你组建的人员应该推动事情向前发展，但我确实认为标志和品牌资产可以产生很多内部和外部的兴奋，只是告诉人们对他们即将参与的事物有何期望。
Some people say don't judge a book by its cover.
有人说不要以貌取人。
I'm the opposite, where any book...
我恰恰相反，任何书...
The cover of the book should be giving you incredible insight into what is on the interior of the book and setting the tone and setting the vibe so that when you open the book and read the book, it's a symbiotic thing where you're like, "Oh, I understand what I was getting into.
这本书的封面应该让你对书的内部内容有令人难以置信的洞察力，并设定基调和氛围，这样当你打开书并阅读这本书时，这是一种共生的事情，你会说，“哦，我明白我在做什么。
This got me excited about starting it," and whatever.
这让我对开始它感到兴奋，”等等。
It keeps that ball rolling.
它让球不断滚动。
Jessica Hische: But with the refresh work that I do, a lot of people start companies and they have a certain amount of money.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：但是随着我所做的更新工作，很多人都创办了公司，并且他们拥有了一定数量的资金。
If they're bootstrapping it, they have less.
如果他们自力更生，他们拥有的就会更少。
If they get venture money, they have a little bit more.
如果他们获得风险投资，他们就会拥有更多。
But what they don't want to do is spend venture money on a massive brand exploration when you're still in the hiring process, you're still trying to get early stage engineers, and all that kind of stuff, and so I am sort of a weird contrarian in this way in the brand world where brand people are like, "Brand is everything.
但他们不想做的是，当你还在招聘过程中，你还在试图招募早期工程师，以及所有类似的东西时，他们就将风险资金花在大规模的品牌探索上，所以在品牌世界里，我是一个奇怪的逆向投资者，品牌人士会说，“品牌就是一切。
You need to take a significant investment in brand because that guides the vision of the product or whatever." But I think being a bit more of an insider within the tech world, I understand that sometimes people start companies and have an intention to do something.
你需要对品牌进行大量投资，因为它可以指导产品的愿景或其他什么。”但我认为，作为科技界的内部人士，我理解有时人们创办公司并有意做某事。
Jessica Hische: While they're doing that, they're building the team, they're doing cool stuff, but then the company has to pivot for one reason or another, whether a competitor immediately comes out with a thing that you're doing or the technology that you're doing gets postponed, whatever's going to feed into it, and so if you invest super heavily on the whole brand vision from the jump, sometimes it's like throwing away money if you have to pivot.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：当他们这样做时，他们正在组建团队，他们正在做很酷的事情，但是公司必须出于某种原因进行转型，无论竞争对手是否立即推出你正在做的事情，或者你正在做的技术被推迟，无论什么都会注入其中，所以如果你从一开始就在整个品牌愿景上投入巨资，有时如果你必须转型，就像扔掉钱一样。
What I love about the work that I do is that I understand that a lot of people have to just have something to put on decks and have something to put on a holding page or whatever, and internal teams are totally capable of doing that early work.
我喜欢我所做的工作，因为我知道很多人必须有一些东西可以放在甲板上，有一些东西可以放在保留页面或其他什么上，而内部团队完全有能力完成这项早期工作。
But then if it does become successful, you don't want to get locked into whatever it is that you had to throw together before an investor meeting or something.
但如果它确实成功了，你不想被困在投资者会议或其他活动之前必须整理的任何东西上。
Jessica Hische: I come in then to take the existing vibe and smooth it out, address any of the concerns that came up.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：然后我进来是为了吸收现有的氛围并使其平滑，解决出现的任何问题。
A lot of times, it's really utilitarian stuff like this doesn't scale well, or this thing falls apart in this context, or we never had a good avatar version of it, or whatever.
很多时候，这确实是功利主义的东西，这样的扩展性不好，或者这个东西在这种情况下崩溃了，或者我们从来没有一个好的化身版本，或者其他什么。
Sometimes it's really specific utilitarian fixes, and sometimes it's just about growing it up and sophisticated it without losing what was there in the first place that people got excited about.
有时它确实是特定的功利主义修复，有时它只是在不失去人们最初兴奋的东西的情况下对其进行成长和完善。
Lenny Rachitsky: To give people maybe a couple more tactical piece of advice here, what's a sign that it's maybe time to do something with your logo and brand from you took a first pass, it's good enough, your wife made one, your husband made you a logo, it's like, "Well, this is great.
Lenny Rachitsky：在这里给人们一些更多的战术建议，什么迹象表明也许是时候对你的标志和品牌做一些事情了，从你第一次通过以来，这已经足够好了，你的妻子做了一个，你的丈夫给你做了一个标志，就像，“嗯，这太棒了。
Let's just go with this"?
我们就这样吧”？
What's a sign that maybe it's time to, "Okay, we should actually at least uplevel this, not necessarily hire studio but takes something to make it better"?
有什么迹象表明也许是时候“好吧，我们实际上至少应该升级这个，不一定要雇用工作室，但需要一些东西来让它变得更好”？
Jessica Hische: Well, one of the things is if, suddenly, you're starting to deal with the greater rollout of the look and feel of the brand.
杰西卡·希什：嗯，其中一件事是，如果突然间，你开始处理品牌外观和感觉的更大推出。
If you, at first, just basically had a really beta website and small version of the app but you're about to do a new one that kind of updates and expands it, that could be a really good time to roll it out.
如果您一开始只是拥有一个真正的测试版网站和应用程序的小版本，但您即将做一个新的网站来更新和扩展它，那么这可能是推出它的好时机。
One of the things that a lot of people do when they're starting a company is that they'll make a logo with a font that is really popular or widely available or free.
许多人在创办公司时所做的一件事是，他们会使用真正流行或广泛使用或免费的字体制作徽标。
If you are about to, let's say, print a bunch of swag for new hires, or you're hosting a conference, or whatever is that event where suddenly you're going to physically invest money in making stuff with your brand on it, that might be a good time to do it.
比方说，如果你要为新员工打印一堆赠品，或者你要举办一个会议，或者任何突然你要投入资金来制作带有你的品牌的东西的活动，那么这可能是一个好时机。
Jessica Hische: One of the reasons why I tell people why having a custom logo or custom typography can really matter is that if you're using something that's available to everyone, the chances of someone else coming in and copying you are very easy and high.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我告诉人们为什么拥有自定义徽标或自定义排版确实很重要的原因之一是，如果您使用的是每个人都可以使用的东西，那么其他人进来并复制您的机会就非常容易而且很高。
You might be one of these lucky companies that just out the gate is outrageously successful, but with success comes people climbing up behind you trying to copy your success.
您可能是这些幸运的公司之一，刚刚走出大门就取得了惊人的成功，但随着成功，人们会爬到您身后试图复制您的成功。
If that success is very easily copyable and people will try to trick your customers into coming their way by repeating the things that you're doing, including the branding, one way to avoid that is by doing something that's more customized when it comes to the logo and brand.
如果这种成功很容易复制，并且人们会试图通过重复您正在做的事情（包括品牌）来欺骗您的客户，那么避免这种情况的一种方法是在徽标和品牌方面做一些更加定制的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually talk about the work that you put into updating my logo and brand.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们实际谈谈您为更新我的徽标和品牌所做的工作。
From that, we can spin off into lessons and insights that you have along these lines.
由此，我们可以得出您在这些方面的经验教训和见解。
Overall, just high level, what's the process you go through to go through a logo refresh?
总体而言，只是高水平，您进行徽标刷新的过程是什么？
Jessica Hische: Sure, of course.
杰西卡·希什：当然，当然。
Super high level, it's figuring out what the goals are.
超高水平，就是弄清楚目标是什么。
Some people have a goal where they want their customers to not notice it at all.
有些人的目标是希望他们的客户根本不会注意到它。
They're like, "Oh, everybody loves this, but I, the person with a design eye, can see all the problems with it.
他们会说，“哦，每个人都喜欢这个，但我，一个有设计眼光的人，可以看到它的所有问题。
I need to roll something out that fixes the problems that I see but that no one else really notices." If that's one approach to it, which is a very close in refresh where we're just trying out little things to make it feel custom or fixing things that have come up when stress-tested, whether it looks crazy when you scale it and looks like horsey and heavy-handed when you scale it too big or when you scale it too small, you lose a lot of legibility and stuff like that.
我需要推出一些东西来解决我看到的但没有人真正注意到的问题。”如果这是一种非常接近的刷新方法，我们只是尝试一些小事情，让它感觉自定义或修复压力测试时出现的问题，无论它在缩放时看起来很疯狂，还是在缩放太大或缩放太小时时看起来像马术和粗暴，你会失去很多易读性和类似的东西。
That's what would be a really close in exploration.
这才是真正接近的探索。
Jessica Hische: For other people, they might have bigger goals where they're about to pivot the company to try to attract a different audience or things like that.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：对于其他人来说，他们可能有更大的目标，他们要调整公司以吸引不同的受众或类似的事情。
They might have this really cool and successful group of people that are super users but they're trying to expand it, so then it's about, "What can we do to shift the vibe to make it include these new people without excluding our core folks?" My first round is figuring out what that scope is, how experimental, how broad are we going to go for that first round, because then everything else cascades from there.
他们可能拥有一群非常酷且成功的超级用户，但他们正在努力扩大它，所以接下来的问题是，“我们能做些什么来改变氛围，使其包括这些新人而不排除我们的核心人员？”我的第一轮是弄清楚这个范围是什么，实验性如何，我们将在第一轮中进行多广泛的研究，因为其他一切都会从这里开始。
If we go really broad for the first round, then we're in this process of narrowing down the scope as we go down.
如果我们在第一轮的范围非常广泛，那么我们就会在逐步缩小范围的过程中。
Whereas if we go really close in for the first round, we're already just talking about really technical stuff.
然而，如果我们真的很接近第一轮，我们就已经只是在谈论真正的技术问题了。
Jessica Hische: This is another thing that is a little bit unique to me that not everybody else does, but I will hand off files to clients to try in situ really early on if what we're trying to do is solve utilitarian issues.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：这是另一件事，对我来说有点独特，不是其他人都这样做的，但如果我们想做的是解决功利主义问题，我会尽早将文件交给客户，让他们在现场进行尝试。
Most other people are like, "No, you don't get the files until we do the final because I don't want you to run away with this or whatever." There has to be some trust with it.
大多数其他人都会说，“不，在我们进行决赛之前你不会得到这些文件，因为我不希望你带着这个或其他什么东西逃跑。”必须对其有一定的信任。
Yeah, figure out what we're trying to accomplish and always keep those goals in mind, and then scope out the process based on what those goals are.
是的，弄清楚我们要实现的目标并始终牢记这些目标，然后根据这些目标确定流程范围。
For each round, we're addressing different things.
对于每一轮，我们都会解决不同的问题。
First round might be about just capturing the overall look and trying things as broad as we can, and then the next round is, "Okay.
第一轮可能只是捕捉整体外观并尽可能广泛地尝试，然后下一轮是，“好吧。
Well, now we have generally a look that we want, but is it the right weight?
好吧，现在我们基本上有了我们想要的外观，但是它的重量合适吗？
Is it the right letter height?
字母高度合适吗？
Do we have enough details?" That kind of thing, and then we get narrower and nerdier as we go along in the process.
我们有足够的细节吗？”诸如此类的事情，然后随着我们在这个过程中的进展，我们会变得更加狭隘和书呆子。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
In the experience of my podcast logo, I was an ass.
从我的播客徽标的经历来看，我是个混蛋。
At the end of it, I'm like, "No, this isn't right," because we narrowed, narrowed, narrowed, and then I was like, "No, I'm not feeling it," and then we unnarrowed it and went back.
最后，我想，“不，这是不对的”，因为我们缩小了，缩小了，缩小了，然后我想，“不，我没有感觉到它，”然后我们取消缩小并返回。
Jessica Hische: That is not an uncommon experience though.
Jessica Hische：不过，这并不是一种罕见的经历。
This is why there's a few things that I'm not opposed to that I know people that are very opposed to.
这就是为什么有些事情我并不反对，但我认识的人却非常反对。
I'm not opposed to Frankensteining options together.
我并不反对科学怪人一起选择。
To me, it's like I'm giving you a menu of all the things that we can do, but I'm like a chef that puts a menu together where you can combine different appetizers and different mains and they all still make sense.
对我来说，这就像我给你一个我们可以做的所有事情的菜单，但我就像一个厨师，将菜单放在一起，你可以组合不同的开胃菜和不同的主菜，它们仍然有意义。
Some people will give you a menu and if you try to do that, it's insane and it tastes terrible.
有些人会给你一份菜单，如果你尝试这样做，那就太疯狂了，而且味道很糟糕。
But for me, everything that we're doing, I feel like, mixes and matches fairly well, and I will let you know if it doesn't.
但对我来说，我觉得我们所做的一切都很好地混合和匹配，如果没有，我会让你知道。
Jessica Hische: It's not unreasonable for clients to go down one path and then use that as validation or confirmation that something that we did much earlier was actually the right way.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：对于客户来说，走一条路然后用它来验证或确认我们之前所做的事情实际上是正确的方式，这并不是不合理的。
In that way, if a client ever asks me to do something, they're like, "Let's see it in purple or whatever." There's designers that will really fight you tooth and nail, because they're like, "That is wrong, that is wrong," but I know that some people just have to see it before they can let it go.
这样，如果客户要求我做某事，他们会说，“让我们看看紫色或其他什么。”有些设计师真的会竭尽全力地与你斗争，因为他们会说，“那是错误的，那是错误的”，但我知道有些人必须看到它才能放手。
Sometimes you have to walk down a path before you're able to understand what the right thing to do was all along.
有时，你必须先走一条路，然后才能明白什么才是正确的做法。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's exactly how it felt for me.
Lenny Rachitsky：这正是我的感受。
Going back to the goals, the different goals people have when they're exploring this, you mentioned there's just little problems with the logo, it doesn't scale, it doesn't print well, that kind of thing.
回到目标，人们在探索这个问题时有不同的目标，你提到标志只有一点问题，它不能缩放，打印得不好，诸如此类的事情。
Another goal is people are pivoting and they want to change the vibe and the feel of the brand.
另一个目标是人们正在转变，他们想要改变品牌的氛围和感觉。
What other goals might appear that you've come across why people want to do this?
您还发现人们想要这样做的其他目标是什么？
Jessica Hische: Well, sometimes there's a legibility issue that is really glaring once you see it and then people are too close in to notice it, so this is why it's like you have to show it to a lot of people that aren't familiar with looking at those letter forms and stuff.
杰西卡·希什：嗯，有时候，一旦你看到它，就会出现一个非常明显的易读性问题，然后人们离得太近而无法注意到它，所以这就是为什么你必须向很多不熟悉这些字母形式和东西的人展示它。
The one that came to mind immediately when you asked was when I did a refresh for Jeni's Ice Cream, which is a really amazing ice cream brand based out of Columbus, Ohio.
当你问起时，我立即想到的是当我为 Jeni's 冰淇淋进行更新时，这是一个来自俄亥俄州哥伦布市的非常出色的冰淇淋品牌。
They had a few utilitarian things in mind.
他们心里有一些功利主义的想法。
They had this long J that created this pocket of white space underneath it that made it really hard to design with, but then the biggest glaring one was that they decided to make the apostrophe of the Jeni's over the I as a cool thing.
他们有一个很长的 J，在它下面创建了一个空白区域，这使得设计非常困难，但最引人注目的是他们决定将 Jeni 的撇号放在 I 上，作为一件很酷的事情。
It made the word look like it said penis because of the way that J was drawn.
由于 J 的绘制方式，这个词看起来像是阴茎。
Jessica Hische: It had a little loop at the top of the J.
Jessica Hische：J 的顶部有一个小环。
That was the most specific fix that I've ever had to do, is make the logo not say penis anymore.
这是我必须做的最具体的修复，就是让徽标不再显示阴茎。
But yeah, I feel like a lot of it is misreads.
但是，是的，我觉得很多都是误读。
When you think about logos and things like that, you want it to be something that, at a super fast glance, people can read it right away.
当您想到徽标和类似的东西时，您希望它是人们可以快速浏览的东西。
That doesn't mean that everything has to be simple, but it just means that everything has to be incredibly legible, especially when you're starting a new company or you have a less recognizable brand.
这并不意味着一切都必须简单，而是意味着一切都必须非常清晰，尤其是当您创办一家新公司或您的品牌不太知名时。
Because eventually, you become a household name and then people can look at just the color and recognize that it's you or whatever, but it takes a long time building equity before you get that.
因为最终，你会成为家喻户晓的名字，然后人们只需看颜色就可以认出是你或其他什么，但在你得到这一点之前需要很长时间才能建立公平。
Until that, it's really important that the legibility is just super tight.
在此之前，非常重要的是易读性非常严格。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about actually thinking through my new logo and brand.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们谈谈对我的新标志和品牌的实际思考。
Can you just talk about what you had in mind as you started to explore directions and we started narrowing what was the mindset, and the approach, and the vibe?
您能谈谈当您开始探索方向并且我们开始缩小思维方式、方法和氛围时您的想法吗？
Jessica Hische: I think with the Lenny's brand, you are what I would call a person that has a beloved fan base that we don't want to exclude or offend by shifting gears super crazily.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我认为对于莱尼的品牌来说，我所说的你就是一个拥有深受喜爱的粉丝群的人，我们不想通过超级疯狂的转变来排除或冒犯他们。
When I was looking at redoing your brand, it was about what's here that we can look at that we should keep or at least explore keeping in order to make sure that it still feels the same on the other side?
当我考虑重做你的品牌时，我们可以看看我们应该保留或至少探索保留什么，以确保它在另一面感觉相同？
We didn't want to do anything super drastic.
我们不想做任何极端的事情。
Some of the things to think about in that way are you have this sort of handwritten approach to a lot of the parts of your brand, and I was like, "How do we do something that feels handwritten, that feels like it could jive with the handwriting scripts and stuff that you were using but might feel a little bit more refined moving forward and in a way that could blend with illustration so that the illustration and the letter forms all feel like they were created by the same hand?"
以这种方式需要考虑的一些事情是，你对品牌的很多部分都采用这种手写方法，我想，“我们如何做一些感觉是手写的东西，感觉它可以与你正在使用的手写脚本和东西配合，但可能会感觉更精致一点，并且可以与插图融合在一起，这样插图和字母形式都感觉像是出自同一双手？”
Jessica Hische: A lot of times for me, when it comes to doing an exploration like that, it's about how do we make sure everything feels like it was created at the same time and not that we just tacked on new things?
杰西卡·希什：对我来说，很多时候，当谈到进行这样的探索时，我们如何确保一切都感觉像是同时创建的，而不是我们只是添加了新的东西？
Figuring out how to blend everything together is important.
弄清楚如何将所有内容融合在一起很重要。
Color was also a big one.
颜色也是一个大问题。
I feel like people's color stories are something that is an immediate read, where if you blur your eyes and look at a brand, you can recognize it by its color, and so I think keeping your color similar was a big one too.
我觉得人们的颜色故事是可以立即阅读的，如果你模糊眼睛看一个品牌，你可以通过它的颜色认出它，所以我认为保持颜色相似也很重要。
But then I really wanted to try different approaches with the typography, doing stuff that was a little bit more clean, doing stuff that still had a bit of a funky edge to it.
但后来我真的很想尝试不同的排版方法，做一些更干净的东西，做一些仍然有一点时髦的东西。
Because your original Lenny's podcast type had this sort of cut papery, a little bit off kilter vibe to it, and so trying to capture that but with new cleaner typography.
因为你原来的莱尼的播客类型有这种纸质的、有点不平衡的氛围，所以试图用新的更干净的排版来捕捉这一点。
That was really fun.
那真的很有趣。
Jessica Hische: I was using a typeface Degular as part of it, which has a nice wonkiness to it.
Jessica Hische：我使用了 Degular 字体作为其中的一部分，它有一种很好的古怪感。
It was drawn by a friend of mine, James Edmondson, who I love all of his stuff.
它是由我的朋友詹姆斯·埃德蒙森（James Edmondson）绘制的，我喜欢他的所有作品。
That was one of the things that we approached because I felt like it could capture the look of the original cut paperesque type.
这是我们接触的事情之一，因为我觉得它可以捕捉原始剪纸风格的外观。
But yeah, it was really fun to try a lot of different things and work within the iconography that you had used on a few stuff with the microphones, and also marshmallows, and campfires, and all kinds of things, and just trying to make a more unified system.
但是，是的，尝试很多不同的东西，并在你用过的一些麦克风、棉花糖、篝火和各种各样的东西上使用的图像中工作，真的很有趣，只是试图制作一个更统一的系统。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are there things that didn't work as you tried to explore this process that you recall, that might be worth sharing of just like, "Oh, that was a cool concept," but didn't quite work the way you thought?
Lenny Rachitsky：当您尝试探索这个过程时，是否有一些事情不起作用，您记得这些事情可能值得分享，就像“哦，这是一个很酷的概念”，但并没有按照您想象的方式起作用？
Jessica Hische: With working on this refresh, so much of it was thinking about what are the immediate uses of the logo.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：在进行这次更新时，我们主要考虑的是徽标的直接用途。
Your logo, you have these very specific uses that you need it for, the avatar for the podcast being a top one.
你的标志，你有这些非常具体的用途，你需要它，播客的头像是最重要的。
Some people, they'll design a logo and then have these illustrative versions of the logo that get rolled out for other things, but I feel like those layouts were actually more important than even just having a basic letterhead-esque logo.
有些人会设计一个徽标，然后将这些说明性版本的徽标推出用于其他用途，但我觉得这些布局实际上比仅仅拥有基本的信头式徽标更重要。
That's an interesting way to approach it, because usually, it's like let's start simple, and expand, and make it crazier.
这是一种有趣的处理方式，因为通常情况下，我们会从简单开始，然后扩展，让它变得更疯狂。
I felt like we had to always keep those things in play, so it was designing brand assets while also designing the logo.
我觉得我们必须始终保持这些东西发挥作用，所以它在设计品牌资产的同时也设计了标志。
Sometimes you'll see examples of that in early explorations just because it makes it feel real to the client.
有时你会在早期探索中看到这样的例子，只是因为它让客户感觉真实。
Jessica Hische: That's why there's always the tote bag.
Jessica Hische：这就是为什么总是有手提包的原因。
You got to put the logo on the tote bag and then it feels real or whatever.
你必须把标志放在手提袋上，然后它就会感觉真实或其他什么。
But in our case, we had really specific uses that needed to get explored very early on, and that made it a slightly different process for me.
但在我们的例子中，我们有非常具体的用途，需要很早就探索，这对我来说是一个稍微不同的过程。
In terms of things that didn't work though, I think just trying to work on the level of detail within the illustration and type so that it could shrink down, because we knew...
就那些不起作用的事情而言，我认为只是尝试在插图和类型中的细节水平上进行工作，以便它可以缩小，因为我们知道......
One of the primo examples of the logo being used was on that podcast avatar, and some of the versions felt a little bit too detailed to shrink down that much.
所使用徽标的最初示例之一是在播客头像上，其中一些版本感觉有点过于详细，无法缩小那么多。
Trying to get the balance of that, having the illustrations feel illustrative and whole, but not when they scaled up, to feel too simple like we just pulled it from a icon library.
试图取得平衡，让插图感觉具有说明性和完整性，但当它们放大时，不会感觉太简单，就像我们只是从图标库中取出它一样。
I think that was an interesting challenge.
我认为这是一个有趣的挑战。
Lenny Rachitsky: One of the impetuses for changing my logo, for motivating me, is my wife's a designer, as you know.
Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所知，我的妻子是一名设计师，这是改变我的标志、激励我的动力之一。
She's got strong opinions about my logo, and she always was making fun of my logo saying it looked like a clip art fireplace that anyone just could just plug and play.
她对我的标志有强烈的意见，而且她总是取笑我的标志，说它看起来像一个剪贴画壁炉，任何人都可以即插即用。
She's always like, "Oh, that's so bad.
她总是说：“哦，那太糟糕了。
You got to change it." That was one of the motivators.
你必须改变它。”这是动机之一。
I think I might have shared that when we started working together.
我想当我们开始合作时我可能已经分享了这一点。
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
Also too, I think that really talks to what I was saying earlier about making sure that everything feels like it was created together rather than it feeling like these disparate elements, because I think you can have an icon or logo that is quite simple as long as the rest of the brand matches that simplicity.
另外，我认为这确实符合我之前所说的，即确保一切感觉都是一起创建的，而不是感觉像是这些不同的元素，因为我认为你可以拥有一个非常简单的图标或徽标，只要品牌的其他部分与这种简单性相匹配。
I think, for you, the biggest thing was making the illustration and the typography just feel like it came from the same universe instead of feeling like these separate elements.
我认为，对你来说，最重要的是让插图和排版感觉像是来自同一个宇宙，而不是感觉像是这些独立的元素。
When I first moved to San Francisco, I moved to San Francisco from New York, and as a New Yorker, I had an apartment with a full kitchen that never got used.
当我第一次搬到旧金山时，我从纽约搬到了旧金山，作为一名纽约人，我有一套带完整厨房的公寓，但从未使用过。
I just ate at restaurants and did takeout for the seven years or whatever that I lived in New York.
在纽约生活的七年里，我只是在餐馆吃饭和叫外卖。
Jessica Hische: Learning to cook, at first, when you learn how to cook, it's like you're making a pot full of ingredients and none of the ingredients are actually working together.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：学习烹饪，首先，当你学习如何烹饪时，就像你在做一锅装满配料的锅，但所有配料实际上都没有一起发挥作用。
But then the more you do it and the more you understand how these things are meant to blend and cook at different temperatures at different times, you start having this cohesive dish rather than hot ham water.
但是，你做得越多，你就越了解这些东西是如何在不同时间、不同温度下混合和烹饪的，你就会开始吃这道有凝聚力的菜，而不是热火腿水。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
I feel like a lot of clients come to me and they have hot ham water when it comes to their brand.
我觉得很多客户来找我，当谈到他们的品牌时，他们都有热火腿水。
It's just about turning that into a soup, something that feels real.
只是把它变成汤，感觉真实的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to take a quick tangent.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想快速切入主题。
Most people listening to this podcast are not designers.
大多数收听此播客的人都不是设计师。
They're product managers, founders, engineers, and folks building product.
他们是产品经理、创始人、工程师和产品构建人员。
I've always wanted to see the world through the eyes of a designer, because there's so much I don't see and there's so much that affects how I think about something that I don't understand when I look at a logo, and so I thought it might be helpful just to spend a little time helping people see a designer a little bit.
我一直想通过设计师的眼睛看世界，因为有太多东西是我看不到的，而且有太多东西影响了我在看徽标时对我不理解的事物的思考方式，所以我认为花一点时间帮助人们稍微了解一下设计师可能会有所帮助。
Let me just ask you this question.
让我问你这个问题。
When people look at a logo or a brand, what are just elements that make it what it is, that make you feel the thing you want to feel that we may not recognize?
当人们看到一个标志或一个品牌时，是什么元素使它成为它的本来面目，让你感受到你想要感受到的但我们可能不认识的东西？
Jessica Hische: I think most people are better at understanding the feelings and sensations that typography and logos give us than they give themselves credit for, because what we are as people are endless absorbers of patterns, and information, and all this kind of stuff as we move throughout the world.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我认为大多数人更善于理解排版和徽标给我们带来的感受和感觉，而不是他们自己的信用，因为当我们在世界各地移动时，我们作为人，会不断地吸收模式、信息和所有这些东西。
We don't take time to sit and digest it, but it's still coming in and getting logged.
我们没有花时间坐下来消化它，但它仍然进来并被记录下来。
That's why if you see something funky in the world, you're like, "That's weird.
这就是为什么如果你在世界上看到一些奇怪的东西，你会说：“这很奇怪。
I don't like that.
我不喜欢这样。
I don't know why I don't like it, but I know I don't like it." I think even as a non-designer, you can see that in typography.
我不知道为什么我不喜欢它，但我知道我不喜欢它。”我认为即使作为一个非设计师，你也可以在排版中看到这一点。
The whole being able to recognize patterns thing, I talked about this a bit at config, it's like it's a safety thing.
整个能够识别模式的事情，我在配置中谈到了这一点，就像它是一个安全的事情。
Looking into the world, your eyes can spot that thing that's a little bit off, and that thing that's off feels not safe to you.
环顾世界，你的眼睛会发现有一点不对劲的东西，而那些不对劲的东西会让你感觉不安全。
Jessica Hische: It's thinking about when we look at a meal and there's a thing on the plate that looks like it's moldy or something like that.
Jessica Hische：当我们看到一顿饭时，盘子里有一个东西看起来像是发霉了或类似的东西。
You understand that doesn't look right to me, this doesn't smell right to me.
你知道这对我来说看起来不对劲，对我来说这味道也不对劲。
Your body knows it before your brain knows it.
在你的大脑知道之前，你的身体就知道了。
Even as a non-designer, I think you can look at examples of logos where something's not quite right and be like, "Something's not right here, I just don't know how to name it." But I think a good exercise is just looking at fonts that are available in the world and asking yourself, "What feeling does this give me?" and just write them down.
即使作为一个非设计师，我认为你也可以看到一些不太正确的徽标示例，然后说：“这里有些东西不对劲，我只是不知道如何命名它。”但我认为一个好的练习就是查看世界上可用的字体并问自己，“这给我带来什么感觉？”然后把它们写下来。
It doesn't matter, just give yourself permission to say whatever is happening in your mind, the first thing.
没关系，只要允许自己说出你脑海中发生的任何事情，这是第一件事。
Don't overanalyze it.
不要过度分析它。
Just look at it and be like, "That feels calm to me.
只要看着它，就可以说：“这让我感觉很平静。
That feels exciting to me.
这让我感觉很兴奋。
That feels whatever to me."
这对我来说是一种感觉。”
Jessica Hische: The more you do that, the more you can start seeing similarities in the ones that feel exciting, and the ones that feel calm, and the ones that feel whatever, and then get into analyze mode of, "Oh, these 10 things that I said feel calm are a lighter weight, have more generous spacing, have rounded edges, have rounder bowls to the letter forms." You just start seeing commonalities between the things.
杰西卡·希什：你做得越多，你就越能开始看到那些令人兴奋的东西、那些感到平静的东西、以及那些感觉如何的东西的相似之处，然后进入分析模式，“哦，我说的这10件让人感到平静的东西是重量更轻、间距更大、边缘更圆、字母形状更圆的碗。”你刚刚开始看到事物之间的共性。
It's just about seeing them all together to understand what those similarities are.
只需将它们放在一起即可了解这些相似之处。
I think anybody can do that.
我认为任何人都可以做到这一点。
I mean, you're not going to have the language of the leg of the R and the tittle of the I.
我的意思是，你不会有 R 腿的语言和 I 的标题。
Don't worry about that.
不用担心这个。
You don't have to know typography language to think about it, but anybody's capable of doing that.
你不必了解排版语言来思考它，但任何人都有能力做到这一点。
It can be really fun to just stop and ask yourself and notice.
停下来问问自己并注意一下，真的很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
I want to go actually a little deeper.
我其实想更深入一点。
What I'm hearing is look at something, tap into the feeling you feel when you look at it, actually pay attention to it because there's wisdom in that.
我听到的是看着某样东西，利用你在看它时感受到的感觉，真正关注它，因为这里面有智慧。
The specific things that you pointed out that impact that feeling are, you mentioned, spacing between the letters, the edges.
您指出的影响这种感觉的具体因素是字母之间的间距、边缘。
I imagine there's just the color of it.
我想这只是它的颜色。
What other specific elements impact the way someone feels when they look at a logo?
还有哪些其他具体元素会影响人们在查看徽标时的感受？
Jessica Hische: There's the width of the letter, so if it's really narrow versus really wide.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：字母的宽度，所以它是真的窄还是真的宽。
I always think about the width, the weight, facing, sort of detailed treatment of things, whether things are very hard and jagged or soft and how soft it is.
我总是考虑事物的宽度、重量、表面、细节处理，事物是否非常坚硬、参差不齐，或者柔软，以及它有多柔软。
Sometimes we just add a tiny bit of softness so that it just feels printed.
有时我们只是添加一点点柔软度，使其感觉就像是印刷的。
You can take a typeface like Helvetica, just the one everybody knows.
您可以采用 Helvetica 之类的字体，这是大家都知道的字体。
But if you take Helvetica and just ever so slightly round the edges just a little bit, all of a sudden, you have this typeface that feels more vintage, or softer, or whatever, because we're perceiving it, we would perceive it if it were printed on paper versus perceiving it as this hard geometric piece of technology that we're viewing.
但如果你采用 Helvetica，将边缘略微圆润一点，突然之间，你就会发现这种字体感觉更复古，或更柔和，或者其他什么，因为我们正在感知它，如果它打印在纸上，我们会感知到它，而不是将它感知为我们正在查看的硬几何技术。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Jessica Hische: I know that it's because when you look at stuff printed on a page, it bleeds into the paper a little bit, which means that that softness reminds us in our bodies of a thing that we've seen that was printed.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我知道这是因为当你看到页面上打印的东西时，它会渗入纸张中一点点，这意味着这种柔软性让我们的身体想起我们所看到的打印的东西。
It's cool to sort of walk back your feelings also.
收回你的感受也很酷。
You'll look at something and go, "That feels like this," and then ask yourself why does it feel like that.
你会看着某样东西，然后说“感觉就像这样”，然后问自己为什么会有这样的感觉。
It might be because you saw it on a flyer for a band when you were 22, and it brought out that feeling in you of what it felt like to be 22 at that thing.
这可能是因为你在 22 岁时在一个乐队的传单上看到了它，它让你感受到了 22 岁时的感觉。
That's a very specific feeling to you, but it can inform your decisions about design, because you can be like, "Oh, I'm not that much of a special snowflake." Other people might have that same reaction but have different experiences that are adjacent to that reaction.
这对你来说是一种非常特殊的感觉，但它可以影响你对设计的决定，因为你可能会说，“哦，我并不是那么特别的雪花。”其他人可能有相同的反应，但有与该反应相邻的不同经历。
Jessica Hische: It's cool because you are reverse-justifying decisions.
Jessica Hische：这很酷，因为你可以反向证明决策的合理性。
I think that's a really fun exercise to do, is to Song Exploder your intuition.
我认为这是一个非常有趣的练习，就是让 Song Exploder 发挥你的直觉。
You make a decision intuitively or look at something and intuit what you feel from it, and then really try to dive in, "Why do I feel that way?
你凭直觉做出决定，或者看某件事并凭直觉从中感受到什么，然后真正尝试深入思考，“为什么我会有这样的感觉？
What could this have reminded me of that made me feel that way?" You have to be just so forgiving and loose with yourself as you do it because then you'll get into some really weird stuff, and that's really great inspiration juice for picking other things.
这让我想起了什么让我有这样的感觉？”当你这样做的时候，你必须对自己非常宽容和放松，因为这样你就会陷入一些非常奇怪的东西，而这对于选择其他东西来说确实是很棒的灵感源泉。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love the exercise that you gave.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你做的练习。
The one you gave earlier is look at a bunch of fonts, look at your font folder.
您之前给出的就是查看一堆字体，查看您的字体文件夹。
Is that a place to go, just open up your font folder and just go through them?
这是一个只需打开字体文件夹并浏览它们的地方吗？
Jessica Hische: Totally.
杰西卡·希什：完全可以。
Look at your font folder, or go to MyFonts, or a place where there's a ton of fonts, and just search for something.
查看您的字体文件夹，或者转到 MyFonts，或者有大量字体的地方，然后搜索一些内容。
Search for sans serif or whatever.
搜索无衬线字体或其他内容。
Search for a really basic category of fonts.
搜索非常基本的字体类别。
Serif, sans serif, script, whatever, the top level edge of stuff, and then just page through, page through, page through.
衬线、无衬线、脚本，无论什么，东西的顶层边缘，然后只是翻页，翻页，翻页。
Screenshot stuff that you like and make a folder full of screenshots, and then you can take those screenshots and start categorizing them.
对您喜欢的内容进行屏幕截图，并创建一个充满屏幕截图的文件夹，然后您可以拍摄这些屏幕截图并开始对它们进行分类。
"Oh, this one feels feminine.
“哦，这个感觉很有女人味。
This one feels masculine, this one feels aggressive.
这个给人一种阳刚的感觉，这个给人一种侵略性的感觉。
This one feels whatever." Just take some notes on it.
这个感觉怎么样都行。”只需记下一些笔记即可。
Then, you ask yourself, "Well, why did I feel that way?" You're like, "Oh, well, this feels feminine because it reminds me of wedding invitations," and wedding invitations feel inherently bridey versus groomy.
然后，你问自己：“那么，为什么我会有这样的感觉？”你会说，“哦，好吧，这感觉很女性化，因为它让我想起了婚礼请柬”，而婚礼请柬本质上给人一种新娘与新郎的感觉。
All of a sudden, you're like, "Okay.
突然间，你会说：“好吧。
Well, now I know that if I'm going to use a script for something, this zone of script feels very wedding, so maybe I avoid that for this brand that's actually a cutting edge food packaging company or whatever because it feels too aligned with that industry."
好吧，现在我知道，如果我要使用脚本来做某事，这个脚本区域感觉非常婚礼，所以也许我会避免为这个实际上是一家尖端食品包装公司或其他公司的品牌使用它，因为它感觉与该行业太一致了。”
Jessica Hische: Stereotypes are real and trends are real, and what can sometimes happen is some industry usurps an entire style for a period of time.
Jessica Hische：刻板印象是真实的，趋势也是真实的，有时会发生一些行业在一段时间内篡夺整个风格的情况。
If you use anything within that style, it's like you're aligning yourself to that industry.
如果您使用这种风格的任何东西，就好像您正在使自己与该行业保持一致。
I mean, everybody that does branding, one of the things that they do is they analyze the competitors of the company.
我的意思是，每个做品牌的人，他们所做的事情之一就是分析公司的竞争对手。
You just look at a landscape of what are all the competitors doing, what is their visual vibe, and do I lean into that or do I avoid that?
你只需看看所有竞争对手都在做什么，他们的视觉氛围是什么，我是倾向于这样做还是避免这样做？
If I lean into it, then I'm immediately getting this...
如果我倾向于它，那么我立即就会明白......
Everyone that looks at it understands I'm a FinTech company because I look like a FinTech company.
每个看到它的人都知道我是一家金融科技公司，因为我看起来像一家金融科技公司。
If my whole thing is I'm trying to be divergent from that, I'm trying to show how different I am from the status quo, then you use it as a reactionary thing of I want to do nothing like that and do something really different so people understand this isn't just another FinTech company.
如果我的全部事情是我试图与此不同，我试图展示我与现状有多么不同，那么你就把它当作一种反动的事情，因为我不想做那样的事情，而是做一些真正不同的事情，这样人们就明白这不仅仅是另一家金融科技公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I'm thinking green.
我在想绿色。
The color green has to be a part of the logo if you want to be a FinTech company.
如果你想成为一家金融科技公司，绿色就必须成为徽标的一部分。
Jessica Hische: Yeah, exactly.
杰西卡·希什：是的，完全正确。
If you're trying to be weird, then you're like teal.
如果你想变得怪异，那么你就像青色的。
Lenny Rachitsky: On this topic of seeing a designer, is there any other tip, just before we move on to a different topic, of just how someone could learn to see a designer a little bit more?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于与设计师见面的话题，在我们转向不同的话题之前，是否还有其他技巧可以帮助人们学会更多地与设计师见面？
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
Another thing to notice, because I'm assuming you're...
另一件需要注意的事情是，因为我假设你...
Product people, I feel like a lot of product people end up having some engineering background, whether or not they're engineers themselves.
产品人员，我觉得很多产品人员最终都有一些工程背景，无论他们本身是否是工程师。
They have to interface with the engineers and they build stuff, and so they come at it from a data standpoint.
他们必须与工程师互动并构建东西，因此他们从数据的角度来看待它。
I can always tell when there's an engineer that has suddenly got taken an interest in type design and is now a type designer, because everything is very, very regular.
我总能看出什么时候有一个工程师突然对字体设计产生了兴趣，现在成为了一名字体设计师，因为一切都非常非常规律。
You can draw a grid on top of everything and the lines all line up perfectly.
你可以在所有东西的上面画一个网格，所有的线条都完美地排列在一起。
You see lots of reverse justification of that when people are making logos and they have a more engineering background.
当人们制作标志并且他们有更多的工程背景时，你会看到很多相反的理由。
The thing to notice, that is interesting within type, is that, yes, you're absolutely following rules, but you're breaking those rules quite often to correct for optical tricks.
需要注意的是，在类型中很有趣的是，是的，你绝对遵循规则，但你经常打破这些规则来纠正光学技巧。
Jessica Hische: If you look at a geometric sans serif, for instance, that's like a category of sans serifs, and they're meant to have a lot of really strong geometry, be very regular, like most of the sans that you think of that you're like, "I'm in love with this over the last 10 years," like geometric sanses.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：例如，如果你看一下几何无衬线字体，那就像无衬线字体的一个类别，它们意味着有很多非常强大的几何形状，非常规则，就像你认为的大多数无衬线字体一样，“在过去的十年里我爱上了这个”，就像几何无衬线字体一样。
But when you really start to examine them, you notice that there's all these little things that people are doing to make them look perfectly geometric even though they are not mathematically perfectly geometric.
但是当你真正开始检查它们时，你会注意到人们正在做所有这些小事情来使它们看起来完美的几何形状，尽管它们在数学上并不是完美的几何形状。
That's another thing that you can do, whether you're doing it in Figma or doing it somewhere else, is just type out a couple of lowercase letters.
这是你可以做的另一件事，无论你是在 Figma 中还是在其他地方做，只需键入几个小写字母即可。
Lowercase specifically are really good for analyzing this because they're smaller than the uppercase letters.
小写字母特别适合分析这个问题，因为它们比大写字母小。
You usually have to accommodate for the weight a little bit differently.
您通常必须稍微不同地适应重量。
You'll notice that when strokes combine, so say I have an A and I'm combining the lower bowl of the A, I'm going to get a little thinner as I come into that.
你会注意到，当笔划组合时，假设我有一个 A，我将 A 的下碗组合起来，当我进入这个阶段时，我会变得更瘦一些。
Jessica Hische: Or say I have a two-storey A, so a two-storey A is the one that's like this and then a bowl, you might notice that this vertical of the A there, the bowl actually eats into that stroke a little bit to erase a little bit of that added weight that would've been perceived optically had you kept everything perfectly regular.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：或者说我有一个两层的A，所以一个两层的A就是这样的，然后是一个碗，你可能会注意到那里的A的垂直方向，碗实际上会侵蚀一点笔划，以消除一点额外的重量，如果你保持一切都完全正常的话，这些重量会在视觉上被感知到。
It's weird because you end up creating something that's perfect and then have to make it not perfect in order to make it be perceived as perfect.
这很奇怪，因为你最终创造了一些完美的东西，然后必须让它变得不完美，才能让它被认为是完美的。
That's another just fun thing to start noticing.
这是另一件值得开始注意的有趣的事情。
You notice it a lot more on typefaces and typography that is heavier in weight, because when things are heavier weight, you're constantly managing these really inky moments where things join together and you have to subtract a bunch of weight from that so that it doesn't get perceived as this dark mark where the letter is happening.
你会在字重较重的字体和排版上更注意到这一点，因为当东西较重时，你会不断地管理这些真正漆黑的时刻，在这些时刻，东西连接在一起，你必须从中减去一些重量，这样它就不会被认为是字母所在的黑色标记。
Jessica Hische: I think about lowercase Rs and lowercase Ns, where the shoulder of the N or the R comes out, sometimes the top of the R is actually narrower at the top than it is on the bottom, and that's to try to subtract some of that weight in there where that join happens.
Jessica Hische：我想到小写的 R 和小写的 N，其中 N 或 R 的肩部伸出，有时 R 的顶部实际上顶部比底部窄，这是为了尝试减去发生连接的地方的一些重量。
Anyway, that's just a fun thing to notice that you have to do that.
不管怎样，注意到你必须这样做是一件很有趣的事情。
Once you start seeing it, you start seeing where it happens more often, and the answer of why it happens is because correcting for this optical weight issue.
一旦你开始看到它，你就会开始看到它更频繁地发生在哪里，而它发生的原因的答案是因为纠正了这个光学重量问题。
You're like, "Oh, man.
你就像，“哦，伙计。
Now I have x-ray vision.
现在我有了X光视力。
I can see all these weird things I've never seen before." It's very fun.
我可以看到所有这些我以前从未见过的奇怪的东西。”非常有趣。
But anyway, a lot of people, when they first start out doing typography, whether you're an engineer or whether you are a designer, they don't account for that.
但无论如何，很多人在刚开始做排版时，无论你是工程师还是设计师，他们都没有考虑到这一点。
I can always just look at something and see whether someone is truly an expert at typography or whether this is a fun hobby for them when they're pretty fresh at it.
我总是可以看一些东西，看看某人是否真正是排版专家，或者当他们刚刚接触时这对他们来说是否是一个有趣的爱好。
Lenny Rachitsky: The exercise here is open up Figma, start typing, and make it really big so you can basically see the font really zoomed in.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里的练习是打开Figma，开始打字，然后把它调大，这样你基本上就可以看到字体真正放大了。
Jessica Hische: Make a single letter the whole page and then just draw some vertical lines, or do the thing where you draw a little circle or whatever and see if that circle is the same size at the point where two strokes join together or the point where the stroke is just vertical and on its own.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：在整个页面上写一个字母，然后画一些垂直线，或者画一个小圆圈或其他什么，看看这个圆圈在两个笔画连接在一起的点或笔画本身垂直的点是否大小相同。
You'll notice that there's differences even in typography that's meant to look extremely rigid and geometric.
您会注意到，即使在排版方面也存在差异，这意味着看起来非常严格和几何。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to my logo just to close the loop there.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到我的徽标只是为了结束那里的循环。
Talk about just the final result that we landed on, and why you think that was the final answer, and what you think people might get from it, whatever comes to mind.
只谈论我们得出的最终结果，以及为什么你认为这是最终答案，以及你认为人们可能从中得到什么，无论想到什么。
Jessica Hische: Yeah, totally.
杰西卡·希什：是的，完全可以。
I think the final answer or the final logo, we took it down a lot of different paths trying to see where it was going to land, but ultimately ended up keeping it pretty close to home and really focusing on that asset of the fire.
我认为最终的答案或最终的标志，我们沿着很多不同的路径尝试着看看它会落在哪里，但最终还是让它离家很近，真正专注于火灾的资产。
We tried so many different versions of it's microphones with the fire and marshmallows with the fire, et cetera.
我们尝试了很多不同版本的火麦克风和火棉花糖等等。
It was just about sometimes the simplest solution is the correct solution.
有时最简单的解决方案就是正确的解决方案。
I don't know, I just feel like in terms of what we were doing for blowing it out and making it really cohesive, we went a lot of directions where there might've been multiple versions of the logo depending on the scale and ultimately ended up in a place where it's much more in line and consistent across the bar.
我不知道，我只是觉得，就我们为将其吹散并使其真正具有凝聚力所做的事情而言，我们走了很多方向，根据比例可能会有多个版本的徽标，最终最终到达了一个在整个酒吧中更加一致的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Maybe what I'll do is we'll share, I don't know if you're comfortable with that, we could just share all the iterations somewhere that we went through.
也许我会做的是我们会分享，我不知道你是否对此感到满意，我们可以在某个地方分享我们经历过的所有迭代。
Jessica Hische: Oh, yeah.
杰西卡·希什：哦，是的。
I love sharing iterations.
我喜欢分享迭代。
It's very fun.
非常有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
Sweet.
甜的。
The biggest issue we had with the podcast logo specifically is, originally, I was thinking the mic made sense to differentiate it from the newsletter.
我们在播客徽标方面遇到的最大问题是，最初，我认为麦克风可以将其与时事通讯区分开来。
At the end of it, it's just like, "Why do we have this freaking mic in there?
最后，就像是，“为什么我们那里有这个该死的麦克风？
It just feels strange." That's where we revisited the whole idea and killed the mic and went back to a different version of the fireplace but with marshmallows.
只是感觉很奇怪。”这就是我们重新审视整个想法的地方，并取消了麦克风，并回到了不同版本的壁炉，但带有棉花糖。
Jessica Hische: Yeah, I love the marshmallows.
杰西卡·希什：是的，我喜欢棉花糖。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
That was my wife's...
那是我妻子的...
My wife loves the marshmallows also, and it's so versatile.
我的妻子也喜欢棉花糖，而且它用途广泛。
We can use it in so many different ways.
我们可以通过多种不同的方式使用它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I guess maybe one last thread there is we explored handwritten typography that you created from scratch, and then there's the block letters.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想也许最后一个主题是我们探索了您从头开始创建的手写字体，然后是大写字母。
Maybe just thoughts on those two options and benefits and why go one direction versus another?
也许只是思考这两种选择和好处，以及为什么要选择一个方向而不是另一个方向？
Jessica Hische: The handwritten one, I really liked because I felt like we could bring the line quality of the illustration into the handwriting, but then the only problem with the handwriting is that if you want to blow that out, if you want to include other handwriting throughout the rest of the brand, finding something that matches that perfectly without creating a custom typeface is a whole thing.
Jessica Hische：手写的，我真的很喜欢，因为我觉得我们可以将插图的线条质量带入手写中，但手写的唯一问题是，如果你想把它吹掉，如果你想在品牌的其余部分中包含其他手写，找到一些完美匹配的东西而不创建自定义字体是一整件事。
I really like being able to combine the two, where we have this broader visual vocabulary that we can pull from, because you're going to have headlines, you're going to have subheads, you're going to have all these other uses for typography moving forward.
我真的很喜欢能够将两者结合起来，我们可以从中提取更广泛的视觉词汇，因为你将有标题，你将有副标题，你将拥有排版的所有其他用途。
If you just have one thing to pull from, it's a lot harder to work with.
如果你只有一件事可以借鉴，那么工作起来就会困难得多。
It's just nicer when you have a few elements to play with.
当你有一些元素可以玩时，那就更好了。
It's like having a wardrobe.
就像拥有一个衣柜一样。
If you have only one shirt and one pair of pants, there's only so many things that you can do.
如果你只有一件衬衫和一条裤子，你能做的事情就只有这么多。
But if you have all these things that work together and can recombine, then you can blow out a brand system much more easily.
但如果你拥有所有这些可以协同工作并可以重新组合的东西，那么你就可以更容易地摧毁一个品牌系统。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
That's one of my favorite things about working with you, is you create all these different variations of ways to use it.
这是与您合作时我最喜欢的事情之一，就是您创建了所有这些不同的使用方式变体。
It doesn't always have to be the handwritten one.
它并不总是必须是手写的。
It could be the blocky outlining one.
它可能是块状轮廓。
It's not like, "This is it, don't change anything about this.
这并不是说，“就是这样，不要改变任何事情。
This is the only way to use it."
这是使用它的唯一方法。”
Jessica Hische: Well, part of that is because some brands, if you have a massive company, like hundreds of employees generating hundreds of things, sometimes having too many assets can overcomplicate stuff.
杰西卡·希什：嗯，部分原因是有些品牌，如果你有一家大型公司，比如数百名员工生产数百件东西，有时拥有太多资产会使事情变得过于复杂。
Because unless you have a really, really well-written brand book outlining how to do everything that people are adhering to very closely, you can get the assets running rampant throughout all of the stuff and being used incorrectly.
因为除非你有一本写得非常非常好的品牌书，概述了如何做人们非常严格遵守的所有事情，否则你的资产可能会在所有东西中泛滥并被错误地使用。
But because you're not a massive company and you have creative control over the things that are happening and can help direct that, we can be much more playful with the assets and give you the ability to use things in different ways.
但是，由于您不是一家大型公司，并且您对正在发生的事情有创造性的控制，并且可以帮助指导，因此我们可以更加有趣地利用这些资产，并让您能够以不同的方式使用事物。
It depends on how much you trust all the people that are handling your assets.
这取决于您对所有处理您资产的人的信任程度。
Jessica Hische: I am of the mind that you shouldn't need a 500-page brand book in order to direct how the brand is used moving forward, and that if you do, the brand might be quite complicated, or there might be even just parts of the logo that make it difficult to work with.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我认为你不应该需要一本 500 页的品牌手册来指导品牌的未来使用方式，如果你这样做，品牌可能会非常复杂，或者甚至可能只有徽标的一部分使其难以使用。
My goal always when designing a logo is to design a logo that's so easy to use that you don't have to be an extremely skilled designer to design well with it.
在设计徽标时，我的目标始终是设计一个易于使用的徽标，您不必是非常熟练的设计师就可以很好地设计它。
That's my number one goal, because I know not everybody is going to be at a stage where they have an internal brand team or a designer that's a rock star designer that can work with really complicated assets and make them look good.
这是我的首要目标，因为我知道并不是每个人都会处于拥有内部品牌团队或摇滚明星设计师的阶段，可以处理非常复杂的资产并使它们看起来很棒。
Jessica Hische: I just want the assets to teach you themselves, by just how they exist, how to use it.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我只是希望这些资产能够教你自己，通过它们如何存在以及如何使用它们。
You, as a person that has any taste whatsoever, and hopefully people that you're hiring for any job at your company have some degree of taste.
作为一个有任何品味的人，你希望你在公司雇用的任何工作的人都有一定程度的品味。
If you hire an engineer, they have to have taste about how that happens.
如果你雇用一名工程师，他们必须了解这是如何发生的。
If you hire a marketing person, they have to have taste about how that happens.
如果你雇用营销人员，他们必须了解这种情况是如何发生的。
They should be able to look at that and intuit most of the way that you should be able to use it without being explicitly told, "Do not do this."
他们应该能够看到这一点，并凭直觉知道您应该能够使用它，而无需被明确告知“不要这样做”。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Merge.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Merge 为您带来。
Product leaders, yes, like you, cringe when they hear the word integration.
是的，产品领导者和你一样，在听到集成这个词时会感到畏缩。
They're not fun for you to scope, build, launch, or maintain, and integrations probably aren't what led you to product work in the first place.
对于您来说，确定范围、构建、启动或维护它们并不有趣，并且集成可能不是您最初从事产品工作的原因。
Lucky for you, the folks at Merge are obsessed with integrations.
幸运的是，Merge 的员工热衷于集成。
Their single API helps SaaS companies launch over 200 product integrations in weeks, not quarters.
他们的单一 API 可帮助 SaaS 公司在几周内（而不是几个季度）推出 200 多个产品集成。
Think of Merge like Plaid, but for everything B2B SaaS.
将 Merge 想象为 Plaid，但适用于所有 B2B SaaS。
Organizations like Ramp, Dorado, and Electric use Merge to access their customer's accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases and their product, or HRAS data to auto provision and deprovision access for the customer's employees.
Ramp、Dorado 和 Electric 等组织使用 Merge 来访问客户的会计数据以协调账单支付，使用文件存储数据来创建可搜索的数据库及其产品，或使用 HRAS 数据来自动配置和取消配置客户员工的访问权限。
Yes, if you need AI-ready data for your SaaS product, then Merge is the fastest way to get it.
是的，如果您的 SaaS 产品需要人工智能就绪的数据，那么合并是获取它的最快方法。
Want to solve your organization's integration dilemma once and for all, book and attend a meeting at merge.dev/lenny and receive a $50 Amazon gift card.
想要一劳永逸地解决您组织的集成困境，请在 merge.dev/lenny 上预订并参加会议，并获得 50 美元的亚马逊礼品卡。
That's merge.dev/lenny.
那是 merge.dev/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a good circle back to something you touched on earlier that I wanted to come back to, which is a lot of companies, in your opinion, put too much weight on the power of brand, and rebranding, and how much a brand can fix their problems.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的循环，回到你之前提到的我想回到的问题，在你看来，很多公司过分重视品牌的力量、品牌重塑以及品牌可以在多大程度上解决他们的问题。
Can you just again share your perspective on just how this might be an issue for people where they almost overemphasize the power of brand?
对于那些几乎过分强调品牌力量的人来说，这可能是一个问题，您能否再次分享一下您的观点？
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
Well, there's different companies.
嗯，有不同的公司。
There's companies where brand is literally everything, where they're doing something that's not crazy innovative in the first place and the brand is the thing that is the whole company, and that's fine.
有些公司的品牌实际上就是一切，他们所做的事情一开始就不是疯狂的创新，而品牌就是整个公司的东西，这很好。
That's a completely valid way to do stuff.
这是一种完全有效的做事方式。
It's like people that can take in information and recommunicate it in a way to another audience or whatever that they hit that audience in a way that the original information couldn't do.
这就像人们可以接收信息并以某种方式将其重新传达给其他受众，或者以原始信息无法做到的方式向受众传达任何信息。
Think about all of the people who write books on psychology, and medicine, and all kinds of stuff that write it for a broader popular audience.
想想所有为更广泛的大众读者撰写心理学和医学书籍的人。
They're the ones reading the medical papers, they're the ones digesting all of this really huge complicated data, and turning it into something that normal people can read.
他们是那些阅读医学论文的人，他们是那些消化所有这些非常庞大复杂的数据，并将其转化为普通人可以阅读的东西的人。
I think that there are companies that are doing that.
我认为有些公司正在这样做。
They're taking a thing that is not innovative or isn't like they're not the only ones doing it, but they're repackaging it in a way that takes that and makes it so accessible to so many people.
他们正在做的事情并不具有创新性，或者不像他们不是唯一做这件事的人，但他们正在以一种方式重新包装它，让很多人都可以使用它。
Jessica Hische: In that case, brand can matter immensely, where the brand really is the thing that shows people that the thing that you're doing has value.
杰西卡·希什：在这种情况下，品牌就非常重要，品牌确实可以向人们表明你所做的事情是有价值的。
But for a lot of people, the brand should be somewhat invisible so that the thing itself becomes the star.
但对于很多人来说，品牌应该是隐形的，这样产品本身才能成为明星。
If we think about the experiences that we have using products, sometimes there's products where there's a ton of fun and delight built into how you use it, and that can happen through brand through design choices and things like that.
如果我们考虑一下我们使用产品的体验，有时有些产品的使用方式会带来大量的乐趣和愉悦，而这可以通过品牌、设计选择和类似的事情来实现。
Sometimes the delight is the fact that nothing is getting in your way as you're using that product.
有时令人高兴的是，当您使用该产品时，没有任何事情会妨碍您。
You just figure out what's your ethos of your company.
你只需弄清楚你的公司的精神是什么。
Is the whole thing about doing a thing well, doing it simply, and making sure that everything gets out of the way of that experience, or is it like we're trying to generate this delightful thing or we're trying to open it up to a new audience or whatever?
整个事情就是把一件事做好，简单地做，并确保一切都不会妨碍这种体验，或者我们正在努力创造这种令人愉快的事情，或者我们正在努力向新的观众开放它，或者其他什么？
Depending on whatever that goal is, brand can have a different place in that equation.
根据目标是什么，品牌在这个等式中可以占据不同的位置。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think some of this unique perspective on the power brand and the need for it in tech companies comes from you're not like a tech person.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这种对权力品牌的独特视角以及科技公司对它的需求来自于你不像一个科技人员。
You work with tech people, you work with tech companies.
你和科技人员一起工作，你和科技公司一起工作。
Do you feel like that has an impact on the way you think and the value that you bring to companies to give them this very outside perspective?
您是否觉得这会影响您的思维方式以及您为公司带来的价值，从而为他们提供这种非常外部的视角？
Jessica Hische: I mean, most of the folks that I know that work in brand or traditional graphic design, print design, they don't necessarily have a lot of insight into how building companies works.
杰西卡·希什：我的意思是，我认识的大多数从事品牌或传统平面设计、印刷设计的人，他们不一定对建筑公司的运作方式有很多了解。
They're not friends with a ton of startup founders and things like that.
他们不是很多初创公司创始人之类的朋友。
I've just had been in this very fun position being like everyone's token creative person in The Bay for a while, and this been for a long time.
我刚刚处于这个非常有趣的位置一段时间了，就像海湾里每个人的象征性创意人一样，而且这种情况已经持续了很长一段时间了。
I remember speaking at a Silicon Valley event that was women in Silicon Valley in 2009 or 2010, something like that.
我记得 2009 年或 2010 年在一场硅谷女性活动中发表过类似的演讲。
It's interesting to be a person that has never actually, themselves, worked at a tech company but felt so involved and understanding about how all of that works.
作为一个从未真正在科技公司工作过的人，但却感到如此投入并了解这一切是如何运作的，这很有趣。
My partner, the reason why we're in The Bay is because he got hired by Facebook back in 2011.
我的搭档，我们之所以来到 The Bay，是因为他在 2011 年就被 Facebook 聘用了。
We were olds at the time.
那时我们已经是老人了。
Take that with a grain of salt, don't judge me.
请持保留态度，不要评判我。
Jessica Hische: Because we were 28, 29 coming over to work at Facebook and everybody there was 23, 24, and so all the people that we ended up meeting in The Bay were more people our age that were moving on to start companies and things like that.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：因为我们28岁、29岁来Facebook工作，那里的每个人都是23岁、24岁，所以我们最终在海湾遇到的所有人都是我们这个年纪的人，他们正在继续创办公司之类的事情。
We just got to see that perspective so clearly of what it is to branch out on your own, to fundraise, to do all this stuff, to pivot, to do little experimental apps and see where that goes to get acquired as a team versus getting acquired as a technology or whatever.
我们必须清楚地看到自己的分支、融资、做所有这些事情、转向、做一些实验性应用程序是什么，并看看作为一个团队被收购与作为一项技术或其他什么被收购的情况。
I've been able to see that in a way that I feel like a lot of people that do my job don't get to see.
我能够以一种我觉得很多从事我工作的人看不到的方式看到这一点。
That makes me very sympathetic and towards what it is to want to build a brand as a founder.
这让我非常同情和理解作为创始人想要建立一个品牌的意义。
I understand that you have limited resources and those resources aren't necessarily going to get devoted to doing a $200,000 brand exploration, because when you have $500,000 of money at all for a year to try to get things going, you certainly should not spend half of that money on branding.
我知道你的资源有限，而且这些资源不一定会专门用于进行 20 万美元的品牌探索，因为当你一年有 50 万美元的资金来尝试让事情顺利进行时，你当然不应该将一半的钱花在品牌推广上。
Jessica Hische: That's my opinion, but that's not to say that brand can't be important and can't come in at some level or can't be thought of as a partnership between you and someone else where...
Jessica Hische：这是我的观点，但这并不是说品牌不重要，不能在某种程度上发挥作用，或者不能被视为你和其他人之间的合作伙伴关系......
There's this whole idea of fractional leadership now, which I feel like hasn't really infiltrated my world as much, but I don't know why it hasn't, because most people don't have internal comms teams, internal brand teams, until the company is very mature.
现在有一个关于部分领导力的想法，我觉得它还没有真正渗透到我的世界，但我不知道为什么它没有，因为大多数人没有内部沟通团队，内部品牌团队，直到公司非常成熟。
The idea that you could bring someone in who is a real expert in whatever it's that they do, just as you need them, and they just get consultant equity kind of thing, that should be more present because people don't necessarily need to have internal brand teams for the first six months to a year of when they're doing stuff unless they grow really significantly.
你可以引进一个真正的专家，无论他们做什么，就像你需要他们一样，他们只是获得顾问股权之类的东西，这种想法应该更加存在，因为人们不一定需要在他们做事的前六个月到一年内拥有内部品牌团队，除非他们真正显着成长。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines, you have a pretty unique way of pricing your work.
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，你有一种非常独特的方式来为你的作品定价。
For people that may want to explore this with you, share whatever you can about just how you think about pricing and ideally even an order magnitude of pricing so they're like, "Oh, okay.
对于那些可能想与您探讨这一问题的人，请尽可能分享您对定价的看法，最好甚至是定价的一个数量级，这样他们就会说：“哦，好吧。
We should actually do this."
我们实际上应该这样做。”
Jessica Hische: To go back to the process how it's always about figuring out what people are trying to accomplish, so a lot of my process scales depending on how broad of an exploration that we're doing.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：回到这个过程，它总是要弄清楚人们想要完成什么，所以我的很多过程的规模取决于我们正在进行的探索的广泛程度。
The way that I treat it is I treat my branding work not dissimilarly to how I treat commercial lettering, which is atypical.
我对待品牌工作的方式与我对待商业字体的方式没有什么不同，这是非典型的。
Brand people, what they typically do is because the client has to own the assets outright at the end no matter what, they tend to do is bill everything that the client owns everything as you are moving along.
品牌人士通常所做的事情是，因为无论如何，客户最终都必须完全拥有资产，他们往往会在你前进的过程中对客户拥有的一切进行计费。
It's all sort of work for hire, but the idea being that it's a buyout of everything that is being made.
这都是雇佣工作，但其理念是买断正在制作的所有东西。
What that means is that when a branding agency is pricing stuff for you, they're taking the buyout rights and baking it into every round of work so that every round gets more expensive because you are owning all of the work.
这意味着，当品牌代理机构为你定价时，他们会将买断权融入到每一轮工作中，这样每一轮都会变得更加昂贵，因为你拥有所有工作。
Jessica Hische: What I do is I treat it much more like a commercial lettering project where I say, "You have to own the rights to this eventually, but hey, let's break that out and let's keep the creative process lighter and less expensive so then we have more room to explore.
杰西卡·希什：我所做的更像是一个商业刻字项目，我说，“你最终必须拥有这个项目的权利，但是嘿，让我们打破这一点，让创作过程变得更轻松、更便宜，这样我们就有更多的探索空间。
So then if some stakeholder comes in last minute and blows everything else up and we need to start over, you haven't already paid to own everything that we've created, you just pay to own the thing that we create in the end that gets chosen." I really like the idea of keeping the creation process more flexible and to try to scale to what people need versus having a really rigid way of approaching everything.
因此，如果某个利益相关者在最后一刻出现并毁掉了其他一切，而我们需要重新开始，那么你还没有支付费用来拥有我们所创建的一切，你只需支付费用来拥有我们最终创建的被选中的东西。”我真的很喜欢保持创作过程更加灵活的想法，并尝试根据人们的需求进行扩展，而不是采用一种非常严格的方式来处理所有事情。
Sometimes people will bring me on really early in the process, where if they have an internal team or if they're working with an external agency or something, they want me there from the get out.
有时，人们会在流程的早期就让我加入，如果他们有内部团队，或者他们正在与外部机构或其他机构合作，他们希望我从一开始就在那里。
Jessica Hische: Some people are like, "We have no money and we are going to try to do this as much as we can inside of our business, but then can we hire you at the end to make it look good?
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：有些人会说，“我们没有钱，我们会在我们的业务范围内尽我们所能地做到这一点，但是最后我们可以雇用你来让它看起来不错吗？
If we can get everybody bought in and get it 80% of the way there." Depending on what people's budgets are, I have different ways of working, or just depending on what their needs are.
如果我们能让每个人都参与进来，并实现 80% 的目标。”根据人们的预算，我有不同的工作方式，或者只是根据他们的需求。
Because my whole thing too is I don't want to step on anybody's toes, because sometimes companies have these really amazing designers that are working in-house, and it sucks as a designer who started at a company and thinks that you might be able to get a chance to work on what is considered the most important asset in terms of the brand and they just farm it out to someone else instead of letting you touch it.
因为我的全部事情也是我不想踩到任何人的脚趾，因为有时公司有这些非常出色的设计师在内部工作，作为一个设计师，他在一家公司开始工作，并认为你可能有机会在品牌方面被认为是最重要的资产上工作，而他们只是将其外包给其他人，而不是让你接触它，这很糟糕。
To me, that's a recipe for anything that I create to be immediately killed, because someone inside is going to be like, "It's time to shine," and then they're just going to kill all my work.
对我来说，这就是我创造的任何东西都会立即被杀死的秘诀，因为里面有人会说，“是时候发光了，”然后他们就会杀死我所有的工作。
Jessica Hische: I'm always like, "How do we collaborate?
杰西卡·希什：我总是想，“我们如何合作？
How do I make it so that I'm an asset to you?
我怎样才能成为你的资产？
Not that I'm trying to step on your toes, not that I'm trying to take over what's the cool juicy work from the people who inside that are really excited to do it." I just want them to feel as bought in as I can be.
并不是说我想踩到你的脚趾，也不是说我想从那些真正热衷于做这件事的人那里接管那些很酷、多汁的工作。”我只是希望他们能感受到我的认同。
But yeah, it becomes interesting.
但是，是的，这变得很有趣。
I feel like I get told by branding people that I'm too inexpensive because they're like, "Oh, for what you do, it should be 60 or $70,000 at a minimum to do all this kind of stuff." I'm like, I feel like the majority of the projects that I do end up being between 25 and 35, but depending on how you bring me in, it can be less if it's just as a consultant.
我觉得品牌宣传者告诉我，我太便宜了，因为他们会说，“哦，对于你所做的事情，做所有这些事情至少应该有 60 或 70,000 美元。”我觉得，我做的大多数项目最终都在 25 到 35 之间，但取决于你如何带我进来，如果只是作为顾问，这个数字可能会更少。
It's not out of the realm of possibilities to hire a proper crazy expert at stuff.
聘请一位真正的疯狂专家并非不可能。
It's not like you're thinking about sinking half a million dollars into the brand.
你并不是在考虑向这个品牌投入 50 万美元。
That's a very different experience.
这是一种非常不同的体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Thank you for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
Before we get into other stuff that you do, because like you said at the top, there are many other things you do outside of this specific time of work, is there anything else you think might be helpful or important for people to know about working with you on a logo refresh or just thinking about logos and this whole space we talked about?
在我们讨论您所做的其他事情之前，因为就像您在顶部所说的那样，您在这个特定的工作时间之外还做了很多其他事情，您认为还有什么其他事情可能对人们了解与您合作进行徽标更新或只是考虑徽标和我们讨论的整个空间有帮助或重要吗？
Jessica Hische: The best thing is just seeing what's there and really being able to understand what's not working about it and what your goals are.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：最好的事情就是看到那里有什么，并真正能够理解哪些地方不起作用以及你的目标是什么。
Like I said with that reverse justification of intuition, I think if you know that the logo is not quite where you want it to be, just spend a couple days asking yourself why.
就像我用直觉的反向论证所说的那样，我认为如果你知道徽标并不完全是你想要的位置，只需花几天时间问自己为什么。
"What is the thing about this that bothers me?" Don't get specific.
“这件事到底有什么问题让我烦恼？”别说得具体。
Don't be like, "The way the R is," or whatever.
不要说“R 就是这样”之类的。
Maybe that's the thing that we talk about down the line, but always think big picture before you think minutiae, because sometimes people think that...
也许这就是我们接下来要讨论的事情，但在考虑细节之前一定要先考虑大局，因为有时人们认为……
They'll throw a bunch of minutiae stuff at me, but it's because they haven't really stopped to think about what is the overall thing that's bothering them.
他们会向我抛出一堆细节，但这是因为他们没有真正停下来思考困扰他们的总体问题是什么。
Jessica Hische: You just never get there if you're always trying to address detail before you address the big picture stuff.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：如果你总是在解决大局问题之前先解决细节问题，那么你永远无法实现这一目标。
You have to just always start super top level, and really ask yourself very broad questions about why you think it's not working, and then go tighter, and tighter, and tighter, and be like...
你必须总是从超级顶级开始，真正问自己非常广泛的问题，为什么你认为它不起作用，然后越来越紧，越来越紧，越来越紧，就像……
It really could be like, "This C has always bothered me," and then we can get real specific about that when I'm doing the refresh.
它真的可能是这样的，“这个 C 一直困扰着我”，然后当我进行刷新时我们可以真正具体地了解这一点。
But I think I also need to understand the overall reason why we're doing this, not just the little bugaboo that bothers you specifically but might not bother anybody else.
但我认为我还需要了解我们这样做的总体原因，而不仅仅是那些特别困扰你但可能不会打扰其他任何人的小问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
When I was thinking about this, it feels like my whole feeling was this could be better.
当我想到这一点时，我的整个感觉是这可能会更好。
That's all it was for me initially, is just like I feel like it could be a lot better.
这就是最初对我来说的全部，就像我觉得它可以更好。
I imagine that's enough for some people, just like, "I think this could be better," and then here's things .
我想这对某些人来说已经足够了，就像“我认为这可能会更好”，然后就是这些。
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
That's definitely enough for some people, because I think sometimes...
对于某些人来说这绝对足够了，因为我认为有时......
I think you, specifically, had a very clear vibe going on with all of your brand stuff.
具体来说，我认为您对所有品牌产品都有着非常清晰的氛围。
Some people, it's totally like a mishmash grab bag of random trends and there's no real voice that's coming through.
有些人，这完全就像一个随机趋势的大杂烩，没有真正的声音传来。
But I feel like you've been doing this for a while, and when you see everything together, there's definitely a very clear vision and vibe that you get from everything.
但我觉得你这样做已经有一段时间了，当你把一切放在一起看时，你肯定会从一切中得到一个非常清晰的愿景和氛围。
I always tell people that having terrible vision can be your best asset when it comes to logo and brand, because it allows you...
我总是告诉人们，在徽标和品牌方面，拥有糟糕的愿景可能是您最好的资产，因为它可以让您...
Jessica Hische: Just take your glasses off if you have terrible vision, and look at it, and get the feeling when you can't see the detail.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：如果你的视力很差，就摘下眼镜，看看它，当你看不到细节时就会有感觉。
You have to be looking at it with blurred eyes.
你必须用模糊的眼睛看着它。
What is the overall look of this thing?
这个东西的整体外观是什么样的？
Just trying to get as broad and noodly as you can with it instead of it being about those really specific one by one stuff.
只是想尽可能地广泛和深入地了解它，而不是一一具体地讨论那些真正具体的东西。
I think when you blur your eyes on your brand, there was a really clear cohesiveness to it already.
我认为当你模糊了你的品牌的视线时，它已经有了一种非常清晰的凝聚力。
It was just about massaging it into a more consistent professional-looking place.
这只是将其调整为一个看起来更一致、更专业的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I can't look at the old logo anymore now that I've gotten this thing coming together, so I'm really excited for this to come out.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，既然我已经把这个东西整合在一起了，我就不能再看旧的标志了，所以我真的很兴奋这个东西的出现。
Just a couple closing questions.
只是几个结束语。
One is you have a lot of other stuff going on that is not just typography and logo refreshes.
一是你还有很多其他事情要做，而不仅仅是版式和徽标刷新。
You have children's books, you do lettering for classics, you have a store in Oakland.
你有儿童读物，你为经典作品刻字，你在奥克兰有一家商店。
Talk about all these other things you got going on in case it might interest people.
谈论您正在进行的所有其他事情，以防人们感兴趣。
Jessica Hische: Sure.
杰西卡·希什：当然。
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
I'm based here in The Bay, as we've talked about, and I have a studio in Downtown Oakland.
正如我们所讨论的，我的总部设在海湾，我在奥克兰市中心有一个工作室。
My studio is like Barbie's creative Dream house, where the top floor is my office, that's where I'm right now, and then the bottom floor on one side is a workshop.
我的工作室就像芭比的创意梦想屋，顶层是我的办公室，那就是我现在所在的地方，然后底层的一侧是工作室。
I do a lot of printmaking.
我做了很多版画。
I went to college at a school that was very focused on interdisciplinary work, and I feel like I bring a lot of manual analog processes into my work a lot.
我在一所非常注重跨学科工作的学校上大学，我觉得我在工作中引入了很多手动模拟过程。
I find it really important to make physical things as a part of my creative process, so I do a lot of printmaking.
我发现制作实物作为我创作过程的一部分非常重要，所以我做了很多版画。
On the other side downstairs is a brick and mortar store.
楼下的另一边是一家实体店。
I've always wanted to have a brick and mortar store because, as an artist, I think having people have a physical connection to your work can be really important.
我一直想拥有一家实体店，因为作为一名艺术家，我认为让人们与你的作品建立物理联系非常重要。
Jessica Hische: I think one of the reasons why people hire me to do things for them is because one of the gifts of working with someone that is a real nerd professional about whatever it is that they do is that they bring you along the journey and give you the language to talk about the thing through their eyes and through their experience.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我认为人们雇用我为他们做事的原因之一是因为与真正的书呆子专业人士一起工作的礼物之一就是无论他们做什么，他们都会带你一路走来，并为你提供通过他们的眼睛和经验来谈论事情的语言。
To me, the funnest thing for me is actually telling clients and teaching them about all the things that we are doing along the way so then they go out into the world as a newly-minted type nerd and can communicate all of these things to other people.
对我来说，最有趣的事情实际上是告诉客户并教他们我们一路上所做的所有事情，然后他们作为一个新的书呆子走进世界，并可以将所有这些事情传达给其他人。
That connection is just really important.
这种联系非常重要。
The connection to the work, the story behind it, I feel like that's one of the ways that we create lasting work, is understanding that the work exists because there's a story behind it.
与作品的联系，它背后的故事，我觉得这是我们创造持久作品的方式之一，就是理解作品的存在是因为它背后有一个故事。
Things, if they're just created because of the aesthetics or they're just created quickly or whatever, it's really easy to discard them because there's not a story behind it.
事物，如果它们只是因为美观而被创建，或者它们只是被快速创建或其他什么，那么很容易丢弃它们，因为它背后没有故事。
Jessica Hische: But if you think about all the objects in your life that have followed you throughout your life, what's a thing that you've had since you were in fifth grade or whatever that is still magically in your possession in your house?
杰西卡·希什：但是，如果你想一想你一生中跟随你的所有物品，那么从五年级开始你就拥有的东西是什么，或者你家里仍然神奇地拥有的东西是什么？
You have that because the story of that thing is so important to you.
你之所以拥有它，是因为那件事的故事对你来说非常重要。
I think that the work that we create, the design that we create, can have that.
我认为我们创造的作品、我们创造的设计都可以做到这一点。
It can be imbued with so much story and meaning, that when we think about moving on from it, we're like, "Ugh, but this." I think that's one of the ways to build a lasting brand, is to just make sure that the story of creating it feels so real, and visceral, and important.
它可以充满如此多的故事和意义，当我们考虑继续前进时，我们会说，“呃，但是这个。”我认为这是建立持久品牌的方法之一，就是确保创建品牌的故事感觉如此真实、发自内心且重要。
The store is a way for people to have a physical connection to other work that I create, like the prints and things like that.
商店是人们与我创作的其他作品（例如版画等）建立物理联系的一种方式。
Jessica Hische: With the kids' book stuff, that's also about creating lasting stuff.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：对于儿童读物来说，这也是为了创造持久的东西。
I like creating physical things in the world.
我喜欢在世界上创造物质事物。
I like repackaging things that I've learned in therapy in a way that kids will appreciate and enjoy.
我喜欢以孩子们会欣赏和享受的方式重新包装我在治疗中学到的东西。
I'm just always thinking about what's a way that I can say a thing that has been said before but hasn't been said in this way.
我只是一直在想，我可以用什么方式来表达以前说过但从未以这种方式表达过的事情。
If I can turn that into a physical object that people can have and appreciate, all the better.
如果我能把它变成人们可以拥有和欣赏的实物，那就更好了。
But yeah, I don't know.
但是，是的，我不知道。
While, professionally, what I do is considered very niche, I feel like all the things that I do are quite diverse, because they tickle different parts of my brain.
虽然从专业角度来说，我所做的事情被认为是非常小众的，但我觉得我所做的所有事情都是相当多样化的，因为它们刺激了我大脑的不同部分。
I have to use my hands in different ways and my mind in different ways.
我必须以不同的方式使用我的双手，以不同的方式使用我的思想。
It's how I've been able to generally avoid feeling burnt out as a creative, is just being able to move on between different kinds of work and just feel excited about different things at different times.
这就是我能够避免作为一名创意人员感到精疲力尽的方式，就是能够在不同类型的工作之间继续前进，并在不同时间对不同的事情感到兴奋。
Lenny Rachitsky: For folks that want to maybe check out the store, how do they find it?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些想去商店看看的人来说，他们如何找到它？
It's called Jessica and Friends, is that right?
它叫《杰西卡和朋友们》，是吗？
Jessica Hische: Yes.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
It's called Jessica Hische and Friends.
它的名字叫杰西卡·希什和朋友们。
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
I put JH&F on as a part of the Google Maps name so I don't have to spell my name to strangers, because I have a weird German spelling last name.
我把 JH&F 作为 Google 地图名称的一部分，这样我就不必向陌生人拼写我的名字，因为我的德语姓氏拼写很奇怪。
I also have a second store called Drawling, which is drawing with an L thrown in there.
我还有第二家商店，名叫Drawling，是在画画的时候加上一个L。
That one is an all-ages art supply store that's sort of a kids' art supply store.
那是一家全年龄段的艺术用品商店，有点像儿童艺术用品商店。
That one grew out of JH&F as well.
该公司也源自 JH&F。
Those two stores exist.
这两家店是存在的。
With my books, if you just look up my last name on any of your favorite booksellers, you'll find me.
有了我的书，如果你在任何你最喜欢的书商上查找我的姓氏，你就会找到我。
Lenny Rachitsky: Last question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
I'm just going to throw this out there in case something interesting comes up.
我只是把它扔在那里，以防出现一些有趣的事情。
We have a segment on this podcast called AI Corner, where I like to see how people have found ways to use AI in their work, in their life to be more productive, do cool things.
我们在这个播客上有一个名为“人工智能角”的部分，我喜欢在其中看到人们如何找到在工作和生活中使用人工智能的方法，以提高工作效率，做很酷的事情。
Is there some way that you've found a way to use AI in the work that you do that makes you do more interesting stuff?
您是否找到了在您所做的工作中使用人工智能的方法，让您做更多有趣的事情？
Jessica Hische: A little bit.
杰西卡·希什：有一点。
I am in this really interesting position in terms of AI where my partner works at Meta on GenAI stuff.
在人工智能方面，我处于一个非常有趣的位置，我的合作伙伴在 Meta 从事 GenAI 的工作。
He's a director on the GenAI team at Meta and is very bought into AI as a whole thing.
他是 Meta GenAI 团队的总监，非常喜欢人工智能的整体发展。
I am a little about its impact on a lot of the things that we do.
我对它对我们所做的很多事情的影响有一点了解。
I think, overall, it will become a tool and be very useful, especially in a lot of different fields.
我认为，总的来说，它将成为一种工具并且非常有用，特别是在很多不同的领域。
But I think this timeframe in which it's more novelty is going to have not the best impact on things like illustration, but eventually, we'll all come out of it and it'll be fine.
但我认为这个更新颖的时间框架不会对插画等事物产生最好的影响，但最终，我们都会摆脱它，一切都会好起来的。
In terms of how I've been able to integrate it into my process, I did some work for Salesforce last year where the theme for Dreamforce was going to be very AI-driven.
就如何将其集成到我的流程而言，我去年为 Salesforce 做了一些工作，其中 Dreamforce 的主题将是非常人工智能驱动的。
I felt like I needed to explore AI as a part of the generative process for creating that art.
我觉得我需要探索人工智能作为创造艺术的生成过程的一部分。
Jessica Hische: I did have fun creating custom lettering and then trying to run it through stable diffusion to get stable diffusion to generate instances of my lettering in different styles.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我确实很喜欢创建自定义字体，然后尝试通过稳定扩散来运行它，以获得稳定的扩散，以生成不同风格的字体实例。
We were making these clouds.
我们正在制作这些云。
We ultimately didn't end up using it, but it was still really neat to see.
我们最终没有使用它，但它看起来仍然非常漂亮。
I could see the validity of that in the creative iterative process.
我可以在创意迭代过程中看到这一点的有效性。
I think the biggest thing for me is that I find that the sloggy, slow dregs of work is very fulfilling to me, that a lot of the evangelists of AI are like, "Oh, imagine if you could spend all of your time high level thinking, and coming up with the concepts, and guiding the vision, and whatever, and then just get AI to do everything else that you don't care about." For me, that just sounds like not the most holistic approach to how I work, because the reason why I do all the things that I do and why my process is the way that it is because while I love thinking and I love coming up with conceptual stuff, I find it to be very cerebrally taxing.
我认为对我来说最重要的是，我发现那些缓慢、缓慢的工作对我来说非常有成就感，很多人工智能的传播者都会说，“哦，想象一下，如果你能把所有的时间都花在高层次的思考上，提出概念，指导愿景，等等，然后让人工智能去做你不关心的其他事情。”对我来说，这听起来并不是我工作方式的最全面的方法，因为我做所有事情的原因以及我的流程之所以如此，是因为虽然我喜欢思考并且喜欢提出概念性的东西，但我发现它非常耗费脑力。
Jessica Hische: I need a break from that by doing the more low-key production end of stuff.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我需要通过做一些更低调的制作来摆脱这种状态。
That's my favorite part of the process, is we know what we're doing, and now it's just about going in.
这是这个过程中我最喜欢的部分，我们知道自己在做什么，现在就该开始了。
When it comes to judging logos, for instance, the days that I spend knowing exactly what I'm going to do and all it is me just moving little Bezier handles around and getting it feeling right and whatever, those are pure therapeutic zen for me.
例如，当谈到判断徽标时，我花在确切知道自己要做什么的日子里，我只是移动小贝塞尔手柄并让它感觉正确等等，这些对我来说是纯粹的治疗禅宗。
I think I will always have that as a part of my work and will probably not have AI be outputting that part.
我想我将始终将其作为我工作的一部分，并且可能不会让人工智能输出该部分。
But I have been able to have it be helpful in the iterative process a little bit, both through generating sketches with that project and then also through a lot of stuff with writing with my kids' books and things like that, is coming up with lists of words and concepts that are adjacent to each other, whatever.
但我已经能够让它在迭代过程中有点帮助了，既通过用该项目生成草图，也通过用我孩子的书和类似的东西写作的很多东西，提出彼此相邻的单词和概念的列表，等等。
Jessica Hische: I have found that Claude and ChatGPT are very good for things like that.
Jessica Hische：我发现 Claude 和 ChatGPT 非常适合做这样的事情。
I'm working on another kids' book now, and I'm trying to think of the directions that it can take.
我现在正在写另一本儿童读物，我正在努力思考它可以采取的方向。
One of them is sort of illustrating different feelings and things like that.
其中之一是说明不同的感受和类似的事情。
I could sit there and brainstorm what are the different emotions or whatever, or I can just ask Claude like, "List 50 emotions," and then I can cherry-pick the ones that come up that feel right.
我可以坐在那里集思广益，讨论不同的情绪或其他什么，或者我可以问克劳德，“列出 50 种情绪”，然后我可以挑选出那些感觉合适的情绪。
I do find it's really good for that early brainstorming stuff, and that's been really nice.
我确实发现这对于早期的头脑风暴非常有好处，这真的很好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Jessica Hische: Yes.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
Well, I do have a new kid's book coming out in October.
嗯，我十月份确实有一本新的儿童读物出版。
Jessica Hische: Aside from all the logo stuff, please do check out my kids' books.
杰西卡·希什：除了所有标志之外，请看看我的孩子们的书。
It's called My First Book of Fancy Letters, and it is like a new spin on an alphabet book, but instead of it being an alphabet book for brand new babies, which you could totally buy it for brand new babies because it is very simple, and fun, and they'll like the bright pictures, it's for the age where kids can recognize letters but can't necessarily read and write yet because they get so into seeing letters drawn in these different styles and imagining what other letters could be drawn in.
它的名字叫《我的第一本花式字母书》，它就像一本字母书的新版本，但它不是一本为新生婴儿准备的字母书，你完全可以为新生婴儿购买它，因为它非常简单，有趣，而且他们会喜欢明亮的图片，它是为孩子们可以识别字母但不一定能读和写的年龄段设计的，因为他们太喜欢看到用这些不同风格绘制的字母，并想象可以画出什么其他字母。
Each of the letters is drawn to represent the word that it sounds like.
每个字母都被绘制来代表它听起来像的单词。
Letters can be athletic, bubbly, or creepy, and then it's like, "Well, what does a creepy C look like?"
字母可以是动感的、活泼的或令人毛骨悚然的，然后就像是，“好吧，一个令人毛骨悚然的 C 是什么样子的？”
Jessica Hische: When kids are starting to understand letter sounds and recognizing letters, they can start thinking about what other words start with that letter sound, and then they start listing stuff out and become immediate over-the-shoulder art directors.
Jessica Hische：当孩子们开始理解字母发音并识别字母时，他们可以开始思考以该字母发音开头的其他单词，然后他们开始列出内容并立即成为过肩艺术总监。
It's been really fun showing it to other preschoolers, and TK, and kindergarten kids, because they're immediately like, "Well, R should be a river.
向其他学龄前儿童、TK 和幼儿园的孩子展示它真的很有趣，因为他们立刻就会想，“好吧，R 应该是一条河流。
It should be a river." I'm like, "Well, how do you draw a river?" It becomes this fun imagination exercise too, so definitely check that out.
应该是一条河。”我想，“那么，你怎么画一条河呢？”它也变成了一个有趣的想象力练习，所以一定要检查一下。
It's up for pre-order now and comes out October 22nd.
该产品现已接受预订，将于 10 月 22 日上市。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is so delightful.
Lenny Rachitsky：那太令人高兴了。
I know you have multiple kids.
我知道你有多个孩子。
Do you start to see the idea with one age of kid and then by the time the next kid reaches that age, it's ready and published?
您是否从一个孩子的年龄开始看到这个想法，然后当下一个孩子达到该年龄时，它已经准备好并发布了？
Does that work timing-wise?
这在时间上有效吗？
Jessica Hische: Yeah, the only thing is both of my...
杰西卡·希什：是的，唯一的事情就是我的……
Well, my oldest child is a real super reader.
嗯，我最大的孩子是一个真正的超级读者。
She's always ahead of the game.
她总是领先于比赛。
The second that she could read, she was like, "Oh, picture books are for babies." Now she's reading, she goes into Pegasus books and is just like, "Where are your books for teenagers?" They're like, "You're nine.
当她能读书的那一刻，她就说：“哦，图画书是给婴儿看的。”现在她正在阅读，她进入飞马座书籍，就像，“你给青少年的书在哪里？”他们就像，“你九岁了。
We're not going to show you that, but here are the middle grade books or whatever." There is a little bit of that.
我们不会向你展示这些，但这里有中级书籍或其他书籍。”有一点这样的。
You are a parent, but you are a parent of a very young person.
你是一个父母，但你是一个非常年轻的人的父母。
Kids don't want to buy anything you're selling as a parent.
孩子们不想买你作为父母出售的任何东西。
There's a little bit of that where I feel like I get so many wonderful letters from other families about how it's their favorite book, and they read it every night, and it's so important, and then my kids are like, "Yeah, yeah.
有一点是，我觉得我收到了很多来自其他家庭的精彩来信，说这是他们最喜欢的书，他们每天晚上都会读这本书，它是如此重要，然后我的孩子们就会说，“是的，是的。
It's just mom's book, whatever."
不管怎样，这只是妈妈的书。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's bittersweet.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这真是苦乐参半。
Well, with that, Jessica, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
好了，杰西卡，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of books, first question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：说到书籍，第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Jessica Hische: Rick Reuben's creativity book is so good.
Jessica Hische：Rick Reuben 的创意书非常好。
Definitely recommend that.
绝对推荐。
I haven't listened to it on audiobook.
我还没有在有声读物上听过它。
I read the physical book, but I also heard the audiobook is very zen.
我读过实体书，但也听说有声书很有禅意。
I feel like it's just a very good palate cleanser in terms of being an artist and creating because it feels both high level but also very actionable, so really recommend that.
我觉得它对于作为一个艺术家和创作来说是一个非常好的味觉清洁剂，因为它感觉既高水平又非常可操作，所以真的推荐它。
In terms of learning about and understanding typography, there's this book called Inside Paragraphs by Cyrus Highsmith.
在学习和理解排版方面，赛勒斯·海史密斯（Cyrus Highsmith）写了一本名为《Inside Paragraphs》的书。
It's very small and very digestible.
它非常小而且非常容易消化。
You can read it in one bathroom visit, and it's illustrated really well.
你可以在一次浴室里读完它，而且它的插图非常好。
It has cool illustrations.
它有很酷的插图。
If you want to learn about some basics of type and typography, it's a really great book, and incredibly accessible, and not like reading Bringhurst or something like that, so big ups to that book.
如果你想了解字体和版式的一些基础知识，这真是一本很棒的书，而且非常容易理解，不像阅读布林赫斯特或类似的书，所以这本书有很大的提升。
Oh, what's another book?
哦，还有什么书？
Jessica Hische: I don't know.
杰西卡·希什：我不知道。
I feel like I'm just going to end up recommending all the books that I'm currently reading.
我觉得我最终会推荐我目前正在阅读的所有书籍。
This month, I read both Patti Smith's Just Kids, which I loved also and was also...
这个月，我读了帕蒂·史密斯的《Just Kids》，我也喜欢这本书，而且……
I feel like I'm reading a lot of books about being an artist more so than being a designer.
我觉得我读了很多关于成为一名艺术家的书籍，而不是关于成为一名设计师的书籍。
That book, I found really interesting, just hearing her story of moving to New York and having nothing.
我觉得那本书非常有趣，只是听她搬到纽约却一无所有的故事。
Just trying to be an artist, and make art, and having that be the thing that drove everything that she and Robert Mapplethorpe did.
只是想成为一名艺术家，创作艺术，并以此为动力推动她和罗伯特·梅普尔索普所做的一切。
I don't know, I just feel like I'm looking for ways to get out of my very business-driven sensibilities around art making and get into a space that's more loose, and free, and driven by passions and feelings more so than necessarily career-based milestones and things like that.
我不知道，我只是觉得我正在寻找方法来摆脱我对艺术创作的商业驱动的敏感性，进入一个更宽松、更自由、更受激情和感情驱动的空间，而不是基于职业的里程碑之类的东西。
This is a wild card one too.
这也是一张通配符。
I just finished The Emperor of All Maladies.
我刚刚读完《万病之王》。
I'm just a big fan of reading things about human biology and things like that and found it totally fascinating, so do read that one too.
我非常喜欢阅读有关人类生物学和类似内容的书籍，并且发现它非常令人着迷，所以也请阅读该内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: I can't help but ask, how do you have time to read, raise children, work on so many projects, have a run a store?
Lenny Rachitsky：我忍不住要问，你怎么有时间读书、抚养孩子、从事这么多项目、经营一家商店？
What is your secret?
你的秘密是什么？
Jessica Hische: Well, you get pretty ruthless about your schedule when you're a parent, where when you're at the office, you are just heads in working, and so I think just trying to stay as focused as possible in that way.
杰西卡·希什：嗯，当你为人父母时，你对你的日程安排非常无情，当你在办公室时，你只是负责工作，所以我认为只是尽量保持专注。
I do this thing where I bounce back and forth between projects a lot as I'm losing steam, and so having multiple things to work on keeps me motivated to keep working.
在做这件事时，我经常在项目之间来回切换，因为我失去了动力，因此有多个事情要做可以让我有动力继续工作。
I think it's kind of an ADHD thing, where I will start my day one way and then as soon as I start losing steam, I switch to a different thing, lose steam, switch to a different thing, lose steam, switch to a different thing.
我认为这是一种多动症，我将以一种方式开始我的一天，然后一旦我开始失去动力，我就会切换到不同的事情，失去动力，切换到不同的事情，失去动力，切换到不同的事情。
Rather than taking breaks, I just take a break by working on something that feels fresh.
我不会休息，而是做一些感觉新鲜的事情来休息。
That can be super helpful.
这非常有帮助。
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
杰西卡·希什：是的。
I mean, it's incredible.
我的意思是，这太不可思议了。
I also would tell people when I had first started out, I had a full-time job and then was doing freelance in the evenings.
我还会告诉人们，当我刚开始工作时，我有一份全职工作，然后在晚上做自由职业。
People were like, "How do you not get burnt out, whatever?" It's because my day job was so different from my night job that it felt like I was doing two separate eight-hour shifts instead of one continual sixteen-hour shift.
人们会说，“无论如何，你怎样才能不被烧坏呢？”这是因为我的白天工作与夜间工作非常不同，感觉就像我在做两个单独的八小时轮班，而不是一个连续的十六小时轮班。
I think that's something to sort of think about, is that there's always going to be things that need to get done as a part of your work or things that you're interested in and passionate about.
我认为这是值得考虑的事情，那就是，作为你工作的一部分，总会有一些事情需要完成，或者你感兴趣和热衷的事情。
Just having enough diversity in what that means is going to allow you to maintain enthusiasm for doing all those different things for much longer.
只要在这方面拥有足够的多样性，就能让你更长时间地保持做所有这些不同事情的热情。
Actually, the more homogenous your life and career and job is, the faster you're going to burn out, so just making sure that you have enough variety and all the things that you do.
事实上，你的生活、事业和工作越同质化，你就会越快精疲力尽，所以只要确保你有足够的多样性和你所做的所有事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was an awesome tip.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。
I'm glad I went there.
我很高兴我去了那里。
Okay, back on track to our lightning round.
好的，回到我们的闪电回合。
Is there a recent favorite movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
有没有您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Jessica Hische: Severance was my favorite TV show I think I've ever watched.
杰西卡·希什：《遣散费》是我看过的最喜欢的电视节目。
Lenny Rachitsky: The second season's coming out.
Lenny Rachitsky：第二季即将推出。
Jessica Hische: I know.
杰西卡·希什：我知道。
That came to mind because I knew the second season was coming out, so I'm just really excited about it, but I think that was probably tops for me.
我想到了这一点，因为我知道第二季即将推出，所以我对此感到非常兴奋，但我认为这对我来说可能是最重要的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Jessica Hische: Oh, yeah.
杰西卡·希什：哦，是的。
Well, there's a few things.
嗯，有几件事。
Well, there was one that's just a super random one that was just pure delight.
嗯，有一个是超级随机的，纯粹是一种喜悦。
There's a Japanese brand, Penco, and they make a lot of wonderful stuff.
有一个日本品牌，Penco，他们生产了很多很棒的东西。
I carry a lot of their stuff in my store.
我的店里有很多他们的东西。
One of the things I bought recently from them is a pen cup, a pencil cup.
我最近从他们那里买的东西之一是一个笔杯，一个铅笔杯。
It's ceramic, but it looks like a paper bag, a lightly crumpled paper bag, and then it just has printed on it Penco, whatever.
它是陶瓷的，但看起来像一个纸袋，一个稍微皱巴巴的纸袋，然后上面就印有 Penco 之类的东西。
I just really like it when you take an existing object and give it a new form.
我真的很喜欢将现有的物体赋予新的形式。
I find that to be very delightful, and so that was, I think, one of the things that I really loved recently that I bought for the store.
我发现这非常令人愉快，所以我认为这是我最近在商店买的我真正喜欢的东西之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Pick two more questions.
再选两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often think about, come back to share with folks, find useful, and work your life?
你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，你经常思考，回来与人们分享，发现有用，并为你的生活而努力？
Jessica Hische: It's funny being a lettering artist because I'm not much of a quotes gal, all things considered.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：作为一名刻字艺术家很有趣，因为从各方面考虑，我并不是一个喜欢引用的女孩。
I should be because I could make a million dollars by just making "live, laugh, love" pillows or whatever, but I am not usually continually collecting quotes.
我应该这样做，因为我可以通过制作“生活、欢笑、爱”枕头或其他东西来赚一百万美元，但我通常不会不断收集报价。
But I was just at a conference up in Portland called XOXO, and one of the presenters showed a quote on the screen that resonated with me more than most things that I've seen in recent memory.
但我当时正在波特兰参加一个名为 XOXO 的会议，其中一位演讲者在屏幕上展示了一段引言，这句话比我最近记忆中看到的大多数内容都更能引起我的共鸣。
I feel like this is my new...
我感觉这是我的新...
It was one of those quotes that I was like maybe I should get a tattoo of that.
这是其中一句引言，我想也许我应该纹身一下。
When it gets to that level where you're considering a tattoo, you're like, "Okay, that's official." It was "hope is a discipline".
当你考虑纹身的时候，你会想，“好吧，这是官方的。”这就是“希望是一种纪律”。
I just really loved that.
我真的很喜欢那个。
It's by Mariame Kaba or Mariame Kaba.
这是玛丽亚姆·卡巴 (Mariame Kaba) 或玛丽亚姆·卡巴 (Mariame Kaba) 创作的。
Jessica Hische: The idea that we have to choose to create positivity, that it's like a choice, and that in order to dream of these things, you can actually create structure and discipline around it, and that it's not just something that is just inherent and comes, you have to actually have a practice around being hopeful and positive.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我们必须选择创造积极性，这就像一种选择，为了梦想这些事情，你实际上可以围绕它创建结构和纪律，而且它不仅仅是固有的和到来的东西，你必须实际上围绕充满希望和积极性进行实践。
I just really liked that as a concept because I feel that way just about navigating through life, that everything that we do is a choice and that we can choose to frame things one way or frame things another way.
我真的很喜欢这个概念，因为我觉得在生活中导航，我们所做的一切都是一种选择，我们可以选择以一种方式构建事物或以另一种方式构建事物。
Understanding that you have power in that, I think, is really important, and so I just really loved that.
我认为，了解自己拥有这方面的力量非常重要，所以我真的很喜欢这一点。
Hope is a discipline.
希望是一种纪律。
Lenny Rachitsky: I really love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我真的很喜欢这个。
I love any quote that inspires you to not feel like a victim, and gives you agency, and reminds you that you have agency over.
我喜欢任何能激励你不要觉得自己是受害者、给你代理权、提醒你你已经拥有代理权的名言。
Jessica Hische: Exactly.
杰西卡·希什：没错。
That's, I think, was the biggest thing for me is just...
我认为，这对我来说最重要的是......
Because I feel very well-resourced in being able to deal with hardship because I'm always able to recontextualize and reframe.
因为我觉得自己有足够的资源来应对困难，因为我总是能够重新思考和重新构建。
I think part of that is doing so much intuition justification, which is what we talked about, is walking through things, being like, "Why is this?
我认为其中一部分是进行大量的直觉论证，这就是我们所讨论的，正在经历事情，就像，“为什么会这样？
Why does that happen, la, la, la?" When something bad happens, it's understanding why it happened and then understanding the paths that it can take forward and the different attitudes that you can bring to it that can help you come out of it.
为什么会这样，啦啦啦？”当不好的事情发生时，了解它发生的原因，然后了解它可以采取的路径以及你可以采取的不同态度可以帮助你走出困境。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's beautiful.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太漂亮了。
Okay, final question.
好的，最后一个问题。
I know that you recently remodeled your home.
我知道你最近重新装修了你的家。
It's quite stunning.
这是相当令人惊叹的。
You share photos of it online.
您在网上分享它的照片。
You worked with this amazing architect to help make it as amazing as it is.
您与这位出色的建筑师合作，帮助它变得如此令人惊叹。
As a designer, here's the question, how do you find the balance between trusting someone, their own perspective and design approach, versus pushing into a direction you think that it should go?
作为一名设计师，问题是，你如何在信任某人、他们自己的观点和设计方法与推动你认为应该发展的方向之间找到平衡？
How do you find a balance as a designer?
作为设计师，你如何找到平衡点？
Jessica Hische: Well, I actually feel like it's quite easy for me to trust people to do their own thing, because as long as I go to them as being like, "I appreciate you and your vision and that's why I'm paying you," then the last thing that I want to do is micromanage them, because the reason why I'm paying them is because I don't have the bandwidth to do that myself.
杰西卡·希什：嗯，实际上，我觉得我很容易相信人们会做自己的事情，因为只要我对他们说，“我欣赏你和你的远见，这就是我付钱给你的原因”，那么我最不想做的事情就是对他们进行微观管理，因为我付钱给他们的原因是因为我自己没有足够的带宽来做到这一点。
Because honestly, I'm one of those people that if I had nothing going on, if my job totally blew up or whatever, I would probably be one of those people that just specialize in a different thing every six months and would be like, "I'm going to build a house now from the ground up.
因为老实说，我是这样一种人，如果我什么都没有发生，如果我的工作完全失败或者其他什么，我可能会成为那些每六个月专注于不同事情的人之一，并且会说，“我现在要从头开始建造一座房子。
I'm going to do this from now, whatever." I just feel very capable of doing anything that I want to do because I understand that I can find the resources for it.
从现在开始我就要做这件事，无论如何。”我只是觉得自己非常有能力做任何我想做的事情，因为我知道我可以找到相关资源。
Jessica Hische: When I hire people to help me do a thing, it's because there is this implicit trust in what they do and that that's why I want to work with them.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：当我雇人帮助我做某件事时，是因为对他们所做的事情有一种隐含的信任，这就是我想与他们合作的原因。
With the house, I definitely had opinions about stuff.
有了房子，我对事物肯定有自己的看法。
But in general, I'm just like, "Hey, this is your thing.
但总的来说，我只是想，“嘿，这是你的事。
You're the expert.
你是专家。
What do you think?
你觉得怎么样？
Let me give you the parameters and the things that we have to think about.
让我给你一些参数和我们必须考虑的事情。
Because you know more about wood resources, and you know more about the cabinet spacing, and whatever, you tell me what you think is going to work best based on all these things that I laid out for you." I found it to be quite easy.
因为你对木材资源了解更多，对橱柜间距了解更多，不管怎样，你可以根据我为你列出的所有这些内容告诉我你认为最有效的方法。”我发现这很容易。
I only got really wigged out about a couple of different fine tune-y stuff.
我只是对一些不同的微调东西感到非常恼火。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine architects and designers are like, "Oh no, it's going to be a designer I'm working with.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想象建筑师和设计师会说，“哦不，这将是与我合作的设计师。
They have opinions." I'm glad it wasn't that bad.
他们有意见。”我很高兴事情并没有那么糟糕。
Jessica Hische: I feel like my strength with the work that I do in general is just being incredibly decisive and understanding that there's 10 good answers to every one question.
杰西卡·希什（Jessica Hische）：我觉得我所做的工作的优势就在于非常果断，并且明白每一个问题都有 10 个很好的答案。
Some people are real maximalists about decision-making and need to look at every gray sofa that exists before they can choose the one gray sofa.
有些人在决策方面是真正的极端主义者，需要查看现有的每一张灰色沙发，然后才能选择一张灰色沙发。
Whereas I feel like I can look at 10 gray sofas and go, it feels like there's two or three categories of sofa here, and then within those categories, there's a couple of good options.
虽然我觉得我可以看 10 个灰色沙发就走，但感觉这里有两到三个类别的沙发，然后在这些类别中，有几个不错的选择。
Here's a brand that I recognize is known for being of high quality.
这是我认识的一个以高品质而闻名的品牌。
That one's good enough.
那个就够好了。
I can get to it really quickly, and I feel like not everybody can do that.
我可以很快地做到这一点，但我觉得不是每个人都能做到这一点。
And I think that that permeates through everything that I do in my life.
我认为这渗透到我一生中所做的每一件事中。
It definitely is a huge part of the logo work, because you really can do anything when it comes to typography.
这绝对是标志工作的重要组成部分，因为在排版方面你真的可以做任何事情。
Jessica Hische: It can go in 50 million directions.
Jessica Hische：它可以朝 5000 万个方向发展。
It's just about having someone tell you, "Yes, we could take this anywhere, but these are the valid paths.
只是有人告诉你，“是的，我们可以把它带到任何地方，但这些是有效的路径。
If we go down this path, this is the most intuitive and most correct way to do it that is closest and most accessible to us.
如果我们沿着这条路走下去，这就是最直观、最正确、最贴近、最容易实现的方法。
We can noodle on it until kingdom come, but do we have to?
我们可以一直吃下去直到天国来临，但我们必须这样做吗？
This is good." I don't know.
这很好。”我不知道。
I feel like there's some weird knowledge around understanding that nothing is ever 100% perfect, and the most you can aspire and get to is 99.8 or whatever.
我觉得有一些奇怪的知识围绕着理解，没有什么是 100% 完美的，你最多能渴望和达到的是 99.8 或其他什么。
That last 0.2%, you could spend your whole life trying to do that, or you could move on and do other things and understand that it's nearly perfect.
最后的 0.2%，你可以花一生的时间去尝试做到这一点，或者你可以继续做其他事情，然后明白它几乎是完美的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is really good advice and a freeing piece of advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这确实是一个很好的建议，也是一个令人自由的建议。
Jessica, it's been an honor to work with you on this logo.
杰西卡，很荣幸与您合作制作这个徽标。
I am really excited for people to see it, for it to be the new look of everything I'm doing.
我真的很高兴人们能看到它，因为它是我所做的一切的新面貌。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more and potentially work with you, and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想了解更多信息并有可能与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Jessica Hische: Oh, yeah.
杰西卡·希什：哦，是的。
Of course.
当然。
I have a website that I occasionally update.
我有一个网站，我偶尔会更新。
It is jessicahische.is/awesome.
这是 jessicahische.is/awesome。
You'll notice I have a bunch of weird URLs on my website.
您会注意到我的网站上有一堆奇怪的网址。
That's a place to find me.
那是一个可以找到我的地方。
Otherwise, I am on Instagram and Threads a lot.
除此之外，我经常上 Instagram 和 Threads。
I was formerly a very active Twitter person, and now I'm not really there so much and I bop around with the Twitter clones, but I'm on Threads quite a bit.
我以前是一个非常活跃的 Twitter 用户，现在我不再那么频繁地使用 Twitter 克隆，但我经常使用 Threads。
Instagram and Threads are good for social.
Instagram 和 Threads 非常适合社交。
Email, I'm easy, hello@jessicaHische.com.
电子邮件，我很简单，hello@jessicaHische.com。
What your readers could do for me, I think it's the work that I do in terms of the logo refresh stuff.
您的读者可以为我做的事情，我认为这是我在徽标刷新方面所做的工作。
I feel like this audience is just totally my perfect audience for it because you guys are all a bunch of smart, awesome founders that want beautiful logos, but understand that sometimes you just got to get that first viable option out the door.
我觉得这些观众完全是我的完美观众，因为你们都是一群聪明、出色的创始人，想要漂亮的标志，但要明白，有时你必须把第一个可行的选择拿出来。
Once you're ready, you come to me and I help you and it's great.
一旦你准备好了，你就来找我，我会帮助你，这很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: A match made in heaven.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天作之合。
Jessica, thank you so much for being here.
杰西卡，非常感谢你来到这里。
Jessica Hische: Happy to be here.
杰西卡·希什：很高兴来到这里。
Great convo.
很棒的车队。
Lenny Rachitsky: So good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。