How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want? | Jerry Colonna

Jerry Colonna: We're socialized to bullshit not only ourselves, but everybody else, especially in the entrepreneurial community.

杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）：我们社会化了，不仅是我们自己，还有其他人，尤其是在创业界。

All our companies are moving up into the right.

我们所有的公司都在向右移动。

Every product is working.

每个产品都在工作。

We don't really have any problems because we're crushing it, and that's just a lie.

我们真的没有任何问题，因为我们正在压垮它，但这只是一个谎言。

The question that I often ask is how have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want.

我经常问的问题是，我是如何参与创造我所说的我不想要的条件的。

The purpose of this question is actually to evoke your own agency.

这个问题的目的其实是想唤起你自己的能动性。

A perfect example of that would be, I say I don't want to feel busy all the time, but the truth of the matter is I feel really unnerved and disconcerted if my agenda isn't jam-packed.

一个完美的例子是，我说我不想一直感到忙碌，但事实是，如果我的议程不拥挤，我会感到非常不安和不安。

So if you want to create a high-functioning team, do your work, and it starts with the person who has the most power.

因此，如果你想创建一个高效的团队，就做好你的工作，并且从最有权力的人开始。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jerry Colonna.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是杰里·科隆纳。

Jerry is one of the most well-known and respected executive coaches in the world.

杰里是世界上最知名、最受尊敬的高管教练之一。

He's co-founder and CEO of Reboot, an executive and leadership development firm grounded in the belief that better humans make better leaders.

他是 Reboot 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，这是一家高管和领导力发展公司，其信念是更好的人可以造就更好的领导者。

Prior to coaching, Jerry co-founded Flatiron Partners with Fred Wilson, which ended up being one of the most successful early-stage investment funds in the world.

在担任教练之前，杰里与弗雷德·威尔逊共同创立了 Flatiron Partners，该公司最终成为世界上最成功的早期投资基金之一。

He's also a partner at JPMorgan Chase and the author of two books, Reboot and Reunion.

他还是摩根大通的合伙人，也是《Reboot》和《Reunion》两本书的作者。

As you might expect, this ended up being a very real and very open conversation about being busy and self-inquiry and the dangers of a growth mindset and the reasons that leaders and teams most often fail, and it's not what you think.

正如您所预料的那样，这最终是一次非常真实且非常开放的对话，内容涉及忙碌和自我探究、成长心态的危险以及领导者和团队最常失败的原因，而这并不是您所想的那样。

Also, we talk about a very simple equation that Jerry and his team use to cultivate great leaders.

此外，我们还讨论了杰瑞和他的团队用来培养伟大领导者的一个非常简单的方程式。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is an episode that everybody should listen to and spend time with.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是每个人都应该聆听并花时间聆听的一集。

It'll make you a better person, a better partner, and a better leader.

它会让你成为一个更好的人、更好的合作伙伴和更好的领导者。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you now get a year free of Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, and Granola.

另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您现在可以免费获得一年的 Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity 和 Granola。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Jerry Colonna.

接下来，我为您带来杰瑞·科隆纳。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next-generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

Lenny Rachitsky: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytics cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了这一切，并提供了更多功能，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并且可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，而开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's geteppo.com/lenny.

那是 geteppo.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Contentsquare, the analytics platform that helps companies build better digital experiences.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Contentsquare 为您带来，Contentsquare 是一个帮助公司打造更好数字体验的分析平台。

Ever wonder why customers drop off before converting or why some pages perform better than others?

有没有想过为什么客户在转换之前就放弃了，或者为什么某些页面的效果比其他页面更好？

Contentsquare takes the guesswork out of digital experiences, giving you real-time insights into how users interact with your site or app.

Contentsquare 消除了数字体验中的猜测，让您实时了解用户如何与您的网站或应用程序交互。

With AI-powered analytics, automatic frustration detection, and clear visualizations, you'll know exactly what's working and what's holding your customers back.

借助人工智能支持的分析、自动挫败感检测和清晰的可视化，您将确切地知道哪些内容有效，哪些内容阻碍了客户。

Whether you're optimizing an e-commerce checkout, refining a B2B lead flow, or improving a mobile app experience, Contentsquare pinpoints exactly what needs fixing and why.

无论您是在优化电子商务结账、完善 B2B 销售线索流程，还是改善移动应用程序体验，Contentsquare 都能准确指出需要修复的内容以及原因。

Contentsquare powers better customer journeys across 1.3 million websites and apps.

Contentsquare 为 130 万个网站和应用程序提供更好的客户旅程。

Discover the insights you've been missing at contentsquare.com/lenny.

在 contentsquare.com/lenny 上发现您一直缺少的见解。

Jerry, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

杰瑞，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Jerry Colonna: Well, thanks for having me, Lenny.

杰里·科隆纳：嗯，谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

It's really a delight to meet you and to be with you today.

今天很高兴见到您并与您在一起。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to start with a very classic Jerry Colonna piece of advice that I've heard you share in other places, and I just want more people to hear this advice, and this is a question that you ask people when things aren't going their way, and I'll give you a hint.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想从杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）的一个非常经典的建议开始，我在其他地方听到过你分享过的建议，我只是想让更多的人听到这个建议，这是当事情不顺利时你问人们的问题，我会给你一个提示。

The question contains the word complicit.

该问题包含同谋一词。

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you share this question and why it's so important to ask this of yourself?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能分享一下这个问题吗？为什么问自己这个问题如此重要？

Jerry Colonna: The question that I often ask is how have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want?

杰里·科隆纳：我经常问的问题是，我是如何参与创造我所说的我不想要的条件的？

And if it's helpful, let me break down the question a little bit.

如果有帮助的话，让我稍微分解一下这个问题。

Jerry Colonna: So I purposely chose the word complicit because complicit does not mean responsible, and that's a really important distinction.

Jerry Colonna：所以我特意选择了同谋这个词，因为同谋并不意味着负责任，这是一个非常重要的区别。

And as I often say, to understand the word complicit, think of the word accomplice.

正如我经常说的，要理解同谋这个词，请想想同谋这个词。

As I will share, you are driving the getaway car, you're not sticking up the bank teller.

正如我将分享的，你是在驾驶逃跑的汽车，而不是与银行出纳员作对。

The second half of that question is I say I don't want.

这个问题的后半部分是我说我不想。

And sometimes people hear that question and they interpret it as, how have I been responsible for the shit in my life?

有时人们听到这个问题，他们会把它解释为，我如何对我生活中的狗屎负责？

And that is not the purpose of this question.

这不是这个问题的目的。

The purpose of this question is actually to evoke your own agency, is to look at the ways in which you may have been diluting yourself.

这个问题的目的实际上是唤起你自己的能动性，看看你可能是如何稀释自己的。

Jerry Colonna: A perfect example of that would be, I say I don't want to feel busy all the time, but the truth of the matter is I feel really unnerved and disconcerted if my agenda isn't jam-packed.

杰里·科隆纳：一个完美的例子是，我说我不想一直感到忙碌，但事实是，如果我的议程不拥挤，我会感到非常不安和不安。

And the reason that this is all really important is part of my approach not only to coaching, but to the process of growing up, is to use what I call radical self-inquiry, to really cut through our own delusions and say, how does it serve me to feel completely busy to the point where I feel exhausted?

这一切非常重要的原因不仅是我的教练方法的一部分，也是我成长过程的一部分，就是利用我所说的彻底的自我探究，真正打破我们自己的妄想，并说，让我感到完全忙碌到精疲力尽的地步对我有什么帮助？

And perhaps there's another more conscious way of getting that feeling than feeling like crap all the time.

也许还有另一种更有意识的方式来获得这种感觉，而不是一直感觉自己很糟糕。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a good segue to something that I hear you.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我听到的事情的一个很好的延续。

You have this equation that you and your firm use to think about how to create and cultivate great leaders, and it includes one of the variables is radical self-inquiry.

你和你的公司用这个方程式来思考如何创造和培养伟大的领导者，其中包括的变量之一是激进的自我探究。

Can you share this equation and just how you work with folks to build this in them?

您能否分享这个方程式以及您如何与人们合作在其中建立这个方程式？

Jerry Colonna: Sure.

杰里·科隆纳：当然。

I'll tell a little story about that.

我会讲一个关于这个的小故事。

I remember one time I was, this is how the equation came to be.

我记得有一次，这个等式就是这样产生的。

I was doing a talk, I think here in Boulder at Naropa University where I used to be on the board of trustees.

我当时正在博尔德那洛巴大学做一次演讲，我曾经是该大学的董事会成员。

It's a Buddhist university, and as is often the case, I'm winging it as I go and I'm walking around probably without shoes on because that's what I do.

这是一所佛教大学，就像通常的情况一样，我边走边走，我可能不穿鞋到处走，因为这就是我所做的。

And there was a dry erase board behind me and I was trying to explain what it was that I do, what it was that I encourage people to do.

我身后有一块干擦板，我试图解释我在做什么，我鼓励人们做什么。

And I jumped up at the board and I wrote practical skills.

我跳到黑板上，写下了实用技巧。

And in writing that, what I was trying to convey, what it is that people typically come to a coach for.

在写这篇文章时，我想表达的是，人们通常来找教练的目的是什么。

They want to understand how to do their job.

他们想了解如何做好自己的工作。

They want to understand how to live.

他们想了解如何生活。

They want to understand the how.

他们想了解如何做到这一点。

Jerry Colonna: And then, I wrote plus, and then I sketched out radical self-inquiry.

杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）：然后，我写了 plus，然后我勾勒出激进的自我探究。

And I said in that moment, I said, "People will come and ask me how, and I will drive them crazy because I will say something like, tell me about your father, or tell me why you chose to be in the job you're in the first place, or tell me about your relationship to money, or tell me about your relationship to self-worth." And then, I expanded it and I put another plus sign and I said, "Shared experiences." And then, I drew an equals equation line underneath the whole thing, and I said, "Enhanced leadership plus greater resiliency."

在那一刻，我说，“人们会来问我怎么做，我会让他们发疯，因为我会说一些类似的话，告诉我关于你父亲的事情，或者告诉我你为什么选择从事现在的工作，或者告诉我你与金钱的关系，或者告诉我你与自我价值的关系。”然后，我扩展了它，并添加了另一个加号，我说：“共享经验。”然后，我在整个事情下面画了一条等式线，我说：“增强领导力加上更大的弹性。”

Jerry Colonna: And so, the equation is practical skills plus radical self-inquiry plus shared experiences, that is the process of actually talking about the craziness that goes on in your head equals greater leadership.

杰里·科隆纳：所以，等式是实践技能加上彻底的自我探究加上分享经验，这就是实际谈论你头脑中的疯狂等于更强的领导力的过程。

That all makes sense.

这一切都是有道理的。

But then, there was this other piece, enhanced resilience.

但是，还有另一件事，增强的弹性。

And when I do this on a dry erase board, I will often circle that phrase, and I say that is the purpose of this whole thing, because the truth is, if you follow my story at all, you know that in my late 30s, the depression that had really marked most of my life had gotten so bad that despite my outward success, I was suicidal and lost.

当我在干擦板上这样做时，我经常会圈出这句话，我说这就是整件事的目的，因为事实是，如果你完全了解我的故事，你就会知道，在我三十多岁的时候，真正标志着我一生大部分时间的抑郁症变得如此严重，以至于尽管我表面上很成功，但我却有自杀倾向和迷失。

Jerry Colonna: And I will turn to the audience and I say, "I get you want to be a great CEO, I get you want to be a great executive, but what I really care about is you not killing yourself in the process." So if we take a step back, the whole point of what we refer to as the equation really boils down to that point, how do we grow up and become the leaders, the adults we were born to be without feeling like crap?

杰里·科隆纳：我会转向观众说，“我知道你们想成为一名伟大的首席执行官，我知道你们想成为一名伟大的高管，但我真正关心的是你们在这个过程中不要自杀。”因此，如果我们退一步，我们所说的等式的全部要点实际上可以归结为这一点：我们如何成长并成为领导者，我们生来就成为的成年人，而不感到自己像垃圾？

Lenny Rachitsky: And there's this huge implication here that a lot of people think that when they reach a certain point, become successful, make a certain amount of money, get a beautiful house, still be happy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这里有一个巨大的含义，即很多人认为，当他们达到某一点、取得成功、赚到一定数额的钱、得到一栋漂亮的房子时，仍然会感到快乐。

And essentially what you're saying here is that's very often not the case.

从本质上讲，您在这里所说的情况往往并非如此。

Maybe in most cases, not the case.

也许大多数情况下，情况并非如此。

Jerry Colonna: It's not only not the case, it's the big lie that we're socialized with since childhood.

杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）：事实不仅不是这样，这是我们从小就开始社交的弥天大谎。

I remember one time I was on the road doing a talk for, I was promoting my first book, Reboot, and I was at, I think it's called the Fitler Club in Philadelphia.

我记得有一次我在路上做演讲，我正在宣传我的第一本书《重启》，我当时在费城的菲特勒俱乐部。

I was doing a fireside chat.

我当时正在炉边聊天。

And after talking with my conversation partner, a guy named Chris Fralic who was one of the co-founders at First Round, really, really good guy.

在与我的对话伙伴交谈后，一个名叫 Chris Fralic 的人是 First Round 的联合创始人之一，他真的非常非常好。

We turned to the audience and there was a Q&A as there often is, and this young guy shoots his hand up and he introduces himself and he says, "I'm 19." And he looks over to his right and his mother's sitting there and he says, "And my mother brought me here," which I laughed.

我们转向观众，像往常一样进行问答，这个年轻人举起手，自我介绍说，“我今年 19 岁。”他向右边看去，他的母亲坐在那儿，他说：“我母亲带我来这里。”我笑了。

Jerry Colonna: And he said, "So what you're telling me is you don't have to be an asshole to be successful." And I could not think of a better summation of everything that I'm about than for a 19-year-old kid to look up and say, "You don't have to be an asshole to be successful." And of course, the corollary to that is you don't have to feel miserable just because you're trying to create a career.

杰里·科隆纳：他说，“所以你告诉我的是，你不必成为一个混蛋才能成功。”我想不出比一个 19 岁的孩子抬头说“你不必成为一个混蛋才能成功”更能概括我所做的一切。当然，随之而来的必然结果是，你不必仅仅因为你正在努力创造一份职业而感到痛苦。

Lenny Rachitsky: As people start to think about this and think, okay, I feel like I've been heading in this direction of I just need to keep climbing the ladder, making more money, as they hear you talk, what's the pivot that folks should make in their mind around where they should actually be heading?

Lenny Rachitsky：当人们开始思考这个问题并思考时，好吧，我觉得我一直在朝这个方向前进，我只需要继续攀登，赚更多的钱，当他们听到你说话时，人们应该围绕他们实际前进的方向做出什么转变？

What is a direction where they'll end up not wanting to kill themselves, in spite of being successful?

尽管取得了成功，但他们最终仍不想自杀的方向是什么？

Jerry Colonna: To be clear, not everyone ends up in that level of depression, but the hack, if you will, is consciousness.

杰里·科隆纳：需要明确的是，并不是每个人都会陷入那种程度的抑郁，但如果你愿意的话，秘诀就是意识。

So what do I mean by that?

那么我这是什么意思呢？

Part of what makes radical self-inquiry radical is we're socialized not to ask certain kinds of questions.

激进的自我探究之所以激进，部分原因在于我们被社会化了，不去问某些类型的问题。

So for example, someone says, "It's really important for me to be ambitious and achieve a particular goal." What's radical, a radical question to ask is, and what will that do for you?

例如，有人说：“对我来说，雄心勃勃并实现特定目标非常重要。”什么是激进的，一个激进的问题是，这会给你带来什么？

What is it that you believe being "successful" will do for you?

您认为“成功”会给您带来什么？

How do you define success?

你如何定义成功？

Where does that come from?

这是从哪里来的？

Jerry Colonna: In Reboot, my first book, I tell the story of what I refer to as my pursuit of lemon drops.

Jerry Colonna：在我的第一本书《重启》中，我讲述了我对柠檬汁的追求的故事。

And briefly, when I was a boy, there was a lot...

简而言之，当我还是个孩子的时候，有很多......

I grew up with an enormous amount of chaos and insecurity, financial and otherwise.

我是在经济和其他方面的巨大混乱和不安全感中长大的。

And a big source of stability in my life were my mother's parents, my grandfather and grandmother.

我生活中稳定的一个重要来源是我母亲的父母、我的祖父和祖母。

And Grandpa Guido, who was an ice man and emigrated from southern Italy in early 20th century, always seemed to have, well, he had this endless supply of lemon drops, and they were always kept in this green pantry outside of the kitchen.

吉多爷爷是一位冰人，20世纪初从意大利南部移民过来，他似乎总是有源源不断的柠檬汁，而且总是放在厨房外的绿色食品储藏室里。

And for me, the stability and what I considered wealth seemed to match to this notion of this endless supply of lemon drops.

对我来说，稳定和我所认为的财富似乎与这种源源不断的柠檬汁供应的概念相匹配。

And when I got to my 30s and I was outwardly successful and I was a hot shot BC, I had lemon drops, but I didn't feel safe, which was a mindful.

当我到了 30 多岁时，我表面上很成功，而且我是 BC 的热门人物，我喝了柠檬汁，但我感觉不安全，这是一个需要注意的问题。

Jerry Colonna: And so, I told that story in Reboot as part of my exploration into the core question of how did my relationship to money shape my career choices, shape my school choices, shape my own sense of safety and self-worth?

杰里·科隆纳：所以，我在《重新启动》中讲述了这个故事，作为我探索核心问题的一部分，即我与金钱的关系如何影响我的职业选择，影响我的学校选择，塑造我自己的安全感和自我价值感？

So long-winded response to your question, what I encourage people to do is to ask themselves these kinds of questions so that they can raise their level of consciousness so that they can be in the driver's seat of their lives and not some learned behavior that they developed as a child to answer perhaps their parents or grandparents' anxieties.

对你的问题的回答如此冗长，我鼓励人们问自己这些问题，这样他们就可以提高自己的意识水平，这样他们就可以掌握自己生活的驾驶座，而不是他们小时候为了回答父母或祖父母的焦虑而养成的一些习得行为。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like a lot of people hearing this are afraid to ask these sorts of questions.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得很多人听到这个都不敢问这类问题。

The reason they don't ask these questions is because they worry that this is going to be like, okay, I got to quit my job, move to the woods, give up all these luxuries they have.

他们不问这些问题的原因是他们担心这会像，好吧，我必须辞掉工作，搬到树林里，放弃他们拥有的所有这些奢侈品。

I don't even want to think about that.

我什至不想去想这个。

I got a whole family to support.

我要养活整个家庭。

I got to succeed.

我一定要成功。

Advice for getting over that hump of just like-

克服类似困难的建议-

Jerry Colonna: So let's just pause, Lenny.

杰里·科隆纳：所以让我们暂停一下，莱尼。

Okay, so what you're doing in this moment is empathetically imagining what may be going on for your listener, but the empathy is actually based on your own question because you invited me on the show, you knew I was going to get to this point.

好吧，所以你此刻所做的就是同理心想象你的听众可能会发生什么，但同理心实际上是基于你自己的问题，因为你邀请我参加节目，你知道我会讲到这一点。

So I'm imagining that as you take this in, that thought stream shows up for you.

所以我想象当你接受这个时，那个思想流就会出现在你面前。

"Jerry," says Lenny, "If I open up that closet, all the shit's going to fall out, and what am I going to do with it?" Does that resonate at all?

“杰瑞，”莱尼说，“如果我打开那个壁橱，所有的东西都会掉出来，我该怎么处理它呢？”这能引起共鸣吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: This is why I was nervous to have you on this podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是为什么我对你出现在这个播客上感到紧张。

I knew what you-

我知道你是什么-

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't think it's that strong for me to be afraid of that because I've taken a different path already and gotten off the career ladder climbing treadmill.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我并没有那么害怕这一点，因为我已经走了一条不同的道路，摆脱了职业阶梯攀登的跑步机。

On the other hand, back to your original question, we talked about being busy.

另一方面，回到你原来的问题，我们谈到了忙碌。

I'm very guilty of that.

我对此非常内疚。

I'm constantly trying to do less, but constantly doing more, and my life is just very busy.

我不断地尝试少做事，但又不断地做更多事，我的生活非常忙碌。

Jerry Colonna: Thank you for giving me more of that answer.

Jerry Colonna：谢谢您给我更多的答案。

And trust me, your listeners are going to appreciate you being fully there in just the way you were.

相信我，你的听众会欣赏你以原来的方式全身心地投入其中。

So let's take a step back.

那么让我们退后一步。

The fear is, if I can reflect back to your original question, the fear is if I go there, I don't know what's going to happen as a consequence of that.

担心的是，如果我能反思你原来的问题，担心的是如果我去那里，我不知道会发生什么后果。

If I pause and ask myself, is this relationship working out for me?

如果我停下来问自己，这段关系适合我吗？

I might end up leaving this relationship.

我可能最终会离开这段关系。

If I pause and ask myself if this career isn't working for me, I might leave my career.

如果我停下来问自己这个职业是否不适合我，我可能会离开我的职业生涯。

Jerry Colonna: And the good news bad news is that's true.

Jerry Colonna：好消息坏消息是这是真的。

That is absolutely true.

这是绝对正确的。

And if we look at some of the other observations we were making before like anxiety and depression, we have this belief system that if I pay no attention to the thing that I'm afraid of, it's somehow going to magically go away.

如果我们看看我们之前所做的一些其他观察，例如焦虑和抑郁，我们有这样的信念体系：如果我不注意我害怕的事情，它就会以某种方式神奇地消失。

If we pay no attention to the source of discomfort, it's somehow going to go away.

如果我们不注意不适的根源，它就会以某种方式消失。

And that's not actually how life works.

生活实际上并不是这样的。

More often than not, what we do is we respond to the source of challenge, whether it's a discomfort in our relationship, whether it's a discomfort in the way my life has unfolded.

通常，我们所做的就是对挑战的根源做出反应，无论它是我们关系中的不舒服，还是我的生活展开方式的不舒服。

We respond to it by plasting over band-aids and sometimes they're relatively healthy, we become obsessed with working out, or sometimes they're unhealthy.

我们通过贴创可贴来应对，有时它们相对健康，我们变得痴迷于锻炼，有时它们不健康。

We become obsessed with work or substance abuse or that kind of thing.

我们变得沉迷于工作或药物滥用之类的事情。

Or sometimes, and this is super popular right now, we lean into what I would call as a spiritual bypassing where we go to Peru and we go do ayahuasca or we spend the weekend doing mushrooms with friends...

或者有时候，这现在非常流行，我们会绕过去秘鲁做死藤水，或者我们周末和朋友一起做蘑菇……

Jerry Colonna: And what we're really not doing, Lenny, is confronting the parts of ourselves that need some tending to because we're afraid of the consequences.

杰里·科隆纳：莱尼，我们真正没有做的是面对我们自己需要照顾的部分，因为我们害怕后果。

But I'll tell you a quick quote.

但我会告诉你一个简短的报价。

One of my favorite books is Bruce Springsteen's autobiography, and about in the middle of the book, he has this passage where he talks about having spent 25 years in psychoanalysis.

我最喜欢的书之一是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的自传，在书的中间，他有这样一段话，他谈到自己在精神分析领域度过了 25 年。

So let me just let that statement land.

所以让我让这个声明落地。

Bruce fucking Springsteen, 25 years in psychoanalysis.

布鲁斯他妈的斯普林斯汀，25年精神分析经验。

And he has this passage where he talks about the unsorted baggage of our childhood.

他有一段话谈到了我们童年时未分类的包袱。

And what he rightly asserts is that we all have unsorted baggage, and at some point we're going to pay the price of not sorting that baggage.

他正确地断言，我们都有未分类的行李，在某些时候，我们将为不分类行李付出代价。

And the price more often than not is in tears.

而价格往往让人泪目。

Jerry Colonna: Now, this is Bruce Springsteen talking about this.

杰里·科隆纳：现在，布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀正在谈论这个问题。

This is not some airy-fairy transpersonal Jerry Colonna coach.

这可不是空想的超个人杰瑞·科隆纳教练。

And the reason I draw that out is we as children are socialized not to develop these consciousness skills.

我之所以这么说，是因为我们作为孩子的社会化并不是为了发展这些意识技能。

We are socialized to develop what I would call bypassing skills.

我们社会化是为了发展我所说的绕过技能。

And as he correctly points out, if you continue to bypass sorting out your baggage, there's going to come a day where you're going to have to pay that price.

正如他正确指出的那样，如果你继续绕过整理行李，总有一天你将不得不付出这个代价。

It could be in your own depression, it could be in, I've seen this a thousand times Lenny, entrepreneurs sabotaging their successful businesses because the belief system from their childhood goes something like, I don't deserve success so let me blow it up.

这可能是在你自己的抑郁症中，也可能是在，我已经见过一千次了，莱尼，企业家破坏他们成功的企业，因为他们童年时期的信仰体系就像是，我不值得成功，所以让我把它炸毁。

We put this all under the rubric of midlife, but I don't know, when does midlife begin, 35?

我们把这一切都归入中年的范畴，但我不知道，中年是从什么时候开始的，35岁？

When does it end, 70?

70什么时候结束？

What I do know is it's the bulk of our adulthood.

我所知道的是，这是我们成年的大部分时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I think you've done an excellent job convincing me and others to spend time on this now, and I think there's an assumption of it gets harder, the tears get more intense as you wait longer.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我认为你已经做得很好，说服我和其他人现在花时间在这件事上，我认为有一个假设，随着你等待的时间越长，事情会变得更加困难，眼泪会变得更加强烈。

There's this ticking time bomb that better some amount of tears now than 10 times more tears later.

这就像一颗定时炸弹，现在流一些眼泪比以后流十倍的眼泪要好。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So coming back to this equation, I think I want to give people some things to do now that they may be likely convinced, okay, I should really rethink what I'm doing.

回到这个等式，我想我想让人们做一些事情，现在他们可能会相信，好吧，我真的应该重新考虑我正在做的事情。

So back to the equation, practical skills plus radical self-inquiry plus shared experiences equals enhanced leadership and greater resilience.

回到方程式，实践技能加上彻底的自我探究加上分享经验等于增强的领导力和更强的适应力。

So the three things you can work on are practical skills, radical self-inquiry, shared experiences, skills I think people get.

所以你可以做的三件事是实践技能、彻底的自我探究、分享经验、我认为人们可以获得的技能。

So radical self-inquiry, these are essentially questions to dig into what drives you, what makes you happy.

如此彻底的自我探究，这些本质上是挖掘什么驱动你、什么让你快乐的问题。

What are some questions again that people should be asking there as they're listening or maybe after they finish listening?

人们在听的时候或者听完之后应该问哪些问题？

Jerry Colonna: In the time since I've been a coach, which is now going on 27 years, the popularity of journaling has gone up, which is awesome.

Jerry Colonna：自从我担任教练以来，现在已经 27 年了，日记的受欢迎程度有所上升，这真是太棒了。

And part of what happens is people journal, but they don't know what they should be journaling or how they should.

发生的事情的一部分是人们写日记，但他们不知道应该写什么或应该如何写。

So let me give some questions then, and this is a way to approach it.

那么让我提出一些问题，这是解决这个问题的一种方法。

Let's imagine that what we're trying to do, whether we're sitting in meditation, whether we're journaling, whether we're taking time away, we're just pausing and starting to ask ourselves questions.

让我们想象一下，我们正在尝试做的事情，无论我们是在冥想，无论我们在写日记，无论我们是否在抽出时间，我们都只是停下来并开始问自己问题。

So my famous questions include things like, what am I not saying that I need to say?

所以我著名的问题包括这样的问题：我没有说哪些是我需要说的？

So let's imagine ourselves in a relationship that's not working.

因此，让我们想象一下我们自己处于一种不起作用的关系中。

Jerry Colonna: Talk about something that could be terrifying.

Jerry Colonna：谈论一些可能可怕的事情。

What am I not saying in that relationship that I need to say?

在这段关系中，有哪些是我需要说而没有说的？

By the way, this is a good question to ask if one is responsible for leading people too.

顺便说一句，这是一个很好的问题，问一个人是否也有责任领导别人。

Corollary questions to that would be, what am I saying that's not being heard?

随之而来的问题是，我说了什么而没有被听到？

And then, of course, what's being said that I'm not hearing?

当然，还有哪些我没有听到的内容？

So if we just pause and look at those four questions, how have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want?

因此，如果我们停下来看看这四个问题，我是如何参与创造我所说的我不想要的条件的呢？

What am I not saying that I need to say?

哪些是我没说而我需要说的？

What am I saying that's not being heard?

我说了什么没人听见？

And what's being said that I'm not hearing?

还有什么是我没有听到的？

Can you feel the power of all of that in those questions?

你能感受到这些问题的力量吗？

Jerry Colonna: They are scary questions.

杰里·科隆纳：这些都是可怕的问题。

You know you're in the radical self-inquiry zone when the questions take your breath away, when the questions, and by the way, you don't have to share the answers to these questions with anybody but yourself.

当这些问题让你喘不过气来时，你就知道你正处于彻底的自我探究区，当这些问题，顺便说一句，你不必与除了你自己之外的任何人分享这些问题的答案。

Now, there could be some power in sharing them in a group of friends and sharing them with a group of colleagues, sharing them with a coach, sharing them with a therapist.

现在，在一群朋友中分享它们、与一群同事分享它们、与教练分享它们、与治疗师分享它们可能会有一些力量。

But the most important person with whom you should share the answers is oneself.

但你应该与之分享答案的最重要的人是你自己。

This is a little bit of Buddhism here.

这里就有点佛教的意思了。

Self-delusion along with attachment are the biggest contributors to our own suffering.

自欺欺人和执着是造成我们自身痛苦的最大原因。

Self-delusion.

自我欺骗。

Everything's great.

一切都很棒。

How you doing?

你好吗？

Everything's great.

一切都很棒。

Bullshit.

废话。

Can we just not bullshit each other?

我们能不能不要互相说废话？

Jerry Colonna: So let me just pause.

杰里·科隆纳：让我暂停一下。

Those are just four questions.

这只是四个问题。

My first book Reboot has a set of questions after every single chapter.

我的第一本书《重启》每一章后面都有一系列问题。

We also have a journal that we put out that has questions and questions, but the more important thing to take away from this is questions that startle us, questions that may cause us to be a little afraid of the answer, that's where the gold is.

我们也有一本期刊，里面有疑问和疑问，但更重要的是要从中剔除那些让我们吃惊的问题，那些可能让我们有点害怕答案的问题，这就是黄金所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: And we'll point people to the book for many more of these questions and the worksheets.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们将引导人们通过本书了解更多此类问题和工作表。

For the third party equation, shared experiences, can you explain what that is?

对于第三方方程，共享经验，你能解释一下它是什么吗？

Jerry Colonna: We were talking about socialization, for example.

杰里·科隆纳：例如，我们正在谈论社交化。

Prior to launching Reboot, the company, my co-founder, Ali Schultz and I, the roots of Reboot the company began with me designing, or Ali and I designing these boot camps.

在推出 Reboot 公司之前，我和我的联合创始人阿里·舒尔茨 (Ali Schultz) 和我，Reboot 公司的根源始于我的设计，或者说阿里和我设计了这些训练营。

And the original iteration of the boot camp, we used to call CEO Boot Camp because it was originally we would get first-time CEOs together and we would do a bait and switch.

训练营的最初迭代，我们过去称之为首席执行官训练营，因为最初我们会将首次担任首席执行官的人聚集在一起，然后我们会进行诱饵和转换。

We would pretend to sell them practical skills, and then I would start asking really tough questions like who would you be without the story of who you are?

我们会假装向他们推销实用技能，然后我会开始问一些非常棘手的问题，比如如果没有你是谁的故事，你会是谁？

It's like what?

就像什么？

Jerry Colonna: The notion of shared experience as an important component grew out of that.

Jerry Colonna：共享经验作为重要组成部分的概念就是由此产生的。

Because what would happen is imagine sitting in a circle of people who just have your back, who really care about you as a person.

因为想象一下，你坐在一圈人中间，他们只是支持你，真正关心你这个人。

And imagine then discussing some of the answers to those questions.

想象一下然后讨论这些问题的一些答案。

Who would you be without the story of who you are?

如果没有关于你是谁的故事，你会是谁？

What is it that you wish that people in your life knew about you, but you're too afraid to tell them?

你希望生活中的人了解你，但又不敢告诉他们的是什么？

And imagine sitting in a group of people who can just hold that space without fixing you, without telling you what you're doing right or wrong?

想象一下，坐在一群人中，他们只能保持那个空间，而不修理你，也不告诉你你做的是对还是错？

We, too often than not, especially in what I would say the entrepreneurial community are socialized to bullshit not only ourselves, but everybody else.

我们常常，尤其是在我所说的创业社区中，不仅我们自己，而且其他所有人都被社会化了。

All our companies are moving up into the right, every product that's working, we don't really have any problems because we're crushing it, and that's just a lie.

我们所有的公司都在向正确的方向发展，每一种产品都在发挥作用，我们实际上没有任何问题，因为我们正在粉碎它，而这只是一个谎言。

Imagine having the capacity to be in relationship with people where you can just tell the truth.

想象一下，你有能力与人建立关系，并且可以说实话。

That's what shared experiences are about.

这就是共享经验的意义所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: My wife does a women's circle where they gather and just share what's really going on within in their lives.

Lenny Rachitsky：我的妻子经营一个女性圈子，她们聚集在一起，分享她们生活中真正发生的事情。

And it's-

这是——

Lenny Rachitsky: And it's very confidential.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且这是非常机密的。

There's a ritual to it, and it feels like that's a really good avenue for things like that.

这是一种仪式，感觉这是实现此类事情的一个非常好的途径。

Lenny Rachitsky: No circles.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没有圆圈。

This is my circle.

这是我的圈子。

Jerry Colonna: But there is something powerful here.

Jerry Colonna：但是这里有一些强大的东西。

I think in the last 15 years, the rise of podcasts, good podcasts.

我认为在过去 15 年里，播客兴起了，好的播客。

What I think what happens is let's hope this is happening for your audience right now, good quality intimate conversation between people who are authentic and real, creates space for someone to be authentic and real, even if it's just with themselves.

我认为所发生的事情是让我们希望这正在发生在你的观众身上，真诚而真实的人之间高质量的亲密对话，为某人创造真实而真实的空间，即使只是与他们自己。

So you're doing a mitzvah, you're doing a good deed by creating this space.

所以你正在做一个成人礼，你正在通过创建这个空间来做一件好事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks, Jerry.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢，杰瑞。

Let's go back to the busyness point, and I'll talk about myself a bit to get it real again, because I think it's also something a lot of people struggle with.

让我们回到忙碌的话题，我会谈谈我自己，以便再次回到现实，因为我认为这也是很多人都在努力解决的问题。

I listen to this, they're just like, I'm so busy, and every time someone ask me how I'm doing, busy, so busy, like swirly eyes emoji, swirly eyes emoji.

我听着，他们就说，我太忙了，每次有人问我过得怎么样，忙，太忙，就像漩涡状的眼睛表情符号，漩涡状的眼睛表情符号。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没错。

And the melting face emoji.

还有融化的脸表情符号。

And that's very much me.

这就是我。

And it's funny because I started this journey of the newsletter of just like I call the project avoid getting a real job.

这很有趣，因为我开始了这个时事通讯的旅程，就像我称之为“避免找到真正的工作”的项目一样。

And it was just like, cool, just do this newsletter thing, not have the job.

就像，很酷，只做这份时事通讯，而不是得到这份工作。

It'll be chill, write an email once a week.

天气会很冷，每周写一次电子邮件。

But I just find myself taking on endlessly more and more.

但我发现自己承担了越来越多的事情。

And for me, I feel like the drive is it's just fun to see it grow and for it to keep building and doing well.

对我来说，我觉得看到它成长并不断发展和表现良好是很有趣的。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me, there's a quote that Will Smith shared once that I think you'll like.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，威尔·史密斯曾经分享过一句话，我想你会喜欢的。

Someone asked him what it's like to be famous, and he's like, "Really awesome as you're going up to fame.

有人问他出名是什么感觉，他说：“当你成名时真的很棒。

Pretty okay as a famous person.

作为一个名人，还算可以吧。

Really bad when you lose that fame." And that's how it feels with the growth of this thing.

当你失去名气时真的很糟糕。”这就是这个东西成长的感觉。

It's just like growth is up.

就像增长了一样。

Oh, life's good, and then it starts to stall.

哦，生活本来是美好的，然后它开始停滞不前。

I'm like, oh, no, it's all going to fall apart.

我想，哦，不，一切都会崩溃。

So I think that's where a lot of that comes from for me.

所以我认为这对我来说是很多东西的来源。

It's just like, oh, what's next?

就像，哦，下一步是什么？

I got to, let's see what else I can do here.

我必须，让我们看看我还能在这里做什么。

Jerry Colonna: Well, how do you feel about yourself when you're on that growth trajectory?

杰里·科隆纳：嗯，当你处于成长轨迹时，你对自己感觉如何？

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like I'm achieving and heading in a...

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得我正在实现并朝着......

Part of it is just fun.

其中一部分只是有趣。

It's like fun to win.

获胜就像很有趣。

So it's just like, yeah, we're doing it.

所以就像是的，我们正在这样做。

It's working.

它正在发挥作用。

Jerry Colonna: And when you're not growing, how do you feel about yourself?

杰里·科隆纳：当你没有成长时，你对自己感觉如何？

Lenny Rachitsky: About myself.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：关于我自己。

There's this sense that it's all over.

有一种一切都结束了的感觉。

Oh, maybe it's all going to fall apart, and maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought, and maybe-

哦，也许一切都会崩溃，也许我并不像我想象的那么擅长，也许——

Jerry Colonna: Okay, so stay in that spot for a moment.

Jerry Colonna：好的，就在那个地方呆一会儿吧。

So imagine, and I don't know that this is true, but I can imagine that there's a little whispery voice in your head that's always there that says, "Lenny, you're not as good as you think you are.

所以想象一下，我不知道这是真的，但我可以想象你的脑海里总是有一个低声的声音说：“莱尼，你并不像你想象的那么好。

In fact, Lenny, they might even find out."

事实上，莱尼，他们甚至可能会发现。”

Jerry Colonna: Oh, shit.

杰里·科隆纳：噢，该死。

So by being busy and by being on that growth trajectory, that voice maybe sounds a little less persistent, maybe a little less loud.

因此，通过忙碌并处于成长轨道上，这种声音听起来可能不那么持久，也许不那么响亮。

Now, I want to offer a different potential.

现在，我想提供不同的潜力。

What if you could enjoy the puzzle of trying to create something new, trying to create magic, something out of nothing, but it doesn't matter to your sense of self-esteem if you succeed or fail.

如果你可以享受尝试创造新事物、尝试创造魔法、无中生有的谜题，但成功或失败对你的自尊感并不重要，那会怎样呢？

What if what drove you was not quieting that voice, but what drove you was, oh, this is just fun?

如果驱使你的不是让那个声音安静下来，而是驱使你，哦，这只是有趣怎么办？

Seth Godin, who's a dear, dear friend of mine, talks about art projects.

塞斯·戈丁（Seth Godin）是我的一位亲爱的朋友，他谈论艺术项目。

Jerry Colonna: So what if you just approached the project as if it was an art project?

Jerry Colonna：那如果你只是把这个项目当作一个艺术项目来对待呢？

I think it's going to show up this way.

我想它会以这种方式出现。

What if it turns out it's wrong?

如果事实证明这是错误的怎么办？

What if it's this?

如果是这个怎么办？

What if it's that?

如果是那样的话怎么办？

And your sense of self-esteem is not attached to the outcome.

你的自尊感并不依赖于结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's interesting is that's how I started this whole thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是我就是这样开始这整件事的。

I had no intention of it being a career and way I make a living.

我无意将其作为我的职业和谋生方式。

It was just, this is cool, people seem to like it, I enjoy it.

只是，这很酷，人们似乎喜欢它，我喜欢它。

Let's just see where it goes.

让我们看看它去了哪里。

No expectations.

没有期望。

Jerry Colonna: Right.

杰里·科隆纳：对。

It became successful, meaning you developed an audience, meaning you developed a following.

它成功了，意味着你培养了一批观众，意味着你培养了一批追随者。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then, income.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后是收入。

That was a big part of it.

这是其中很大一部分。

Jerry Colonna: And then you developed an income, and then the stakes went up, and then all of a sudden, my heart, the anxiety.

杰里·科隆纳：然后你有了收入，然后赌注就增加了，然后突然之间，我的心开始焦虑。

Lenny Rachitsky: Not quite that strongly.

Lenny Rachitsky：没那么强烈。

At times it is, but there's a bit of just, oh, wow, I am relying on this now.

有时确实如此，但有一点只是，哦，哇，我现在就靠这个了。

I can't just let it fall apart.

我不能让它崩溃。

Jerry Colonna: Because my life would fall apart if I let it fall apart.

杰里·科隆纳：因为如果我让它崩溃，我的生活就会崩溃。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, life would change in a big way if this whole thing ends.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，如果这一切结束，生活将会发生很大的改变。

Jerry Colonna: Right.

杰里·科隆纳：对。

Right.

正确的。

So what you're talking about, what we're talking about right now, remember before I said in Buddhism, we talk about self-delusion and attachment.

所以你在谈论什么，我们现在在谈论什么，记住我之前在佛教中说过，我们谈论自我迷惑和执着。

Now, we're talking about attachment.

现在，我们谈论依恋。

When we become attached to the outcome, we inadvertently fuel our own suffering.

当我们执着于结果时，我们就会无意中加剧自己的痛苦。

When we become attached, and in this case, okay, I get it.

当我们变得依恋时，在这种情况下，好吧，我明白了。

There's a financial reality.

有一个财务现实。

This is important because it helps pay the bills, if it doesn't entirely pay the bills.

这很重要，因为如果它不能完全支付账单，它有助于支付账单。

Great.

伟大的。

Got it.

知道了。

Fabulous.

太棒了。

But really the deeper attachment is see, I'm not nothing.

但真正更深的执着是看到，我并不是什么都不是。

See, I'm not a nobody, I'm a somebody, and that's the source of the suffering.

看，我不是一个无名小卒，我是一个重要人物，这就是痛苦的根源。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so true.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：确实如此。

That is very much a part of what has driven me is I was always a very shy kid growing up, and I don't think people expected a lot of me except my mom and dad, I guess.

这在很大程度上推动了我，因为我在成长过程中一直是一个非常害羞的孩子，我想除了我的妈妈和爸爸之外，人们对我的期望并不高。

And so, I always had the sense, I'll show them, I'll show them what I could do, and that's always, it's this chip on the shoulder thing that I know drives a lot of people.

所以，我总是有这样的感觉，我会向他们展示，我会向他们展示我能做什么，而且我知道正是这种肩上的责任激励着很多人。

Jerry Colonna: Okay.

杰里·科隆纳：好的。

So maybe now at 43, you can take in the fact that you are somebody regardless of what you do.

所以，也许现在你已经 43 岁了，你可以接受这样一个事实：无论你做什么，你都是一个重要人物。

What's your wife's name?

你妻子叫什么名字？

Jerry Colonna: Is she going to love you even if the podcast fails?

Jerry Colonna：即使播客失败，她还会爱你吗？

Jerry Colonna: What, is she an idiot?

杰瑞·科隆纳：什么，她是个白痴吗？

No, she's a smart person.

不，她是个聪明人。

The people who actually know you and care about you may be proud of your efforts, but their love for you is not dependent upon its success.

真正了解你并关心你的人可能会为你的努力感到自豪，但他们对你的爱并不取决于你的成功。

And that's like a rewiring.

这就像重新布线。

Do you have children?

你有小孩吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, we got a 22-month-old now.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我们现在有一个 22 个月大的孩子了。

Jerry Colonna: Oh, mazel tov.

杰瑞·科隆纳：哦，马泽尔·托夫。

That's wonderful.

太棒了。

My children are 34, 32, and 28.

我的孩子分别是 34 岁、32 岁和 28 岁。

So I'll speak like the old man that I am.

所以我会像我这个老人一样说话。

When we take that test, that spelling test, and we stick it with magnets on the refrigerator, it's at a pride.

当我们进行那个测试，那个拼写测试，然后用磁铁把它贴在冰箱上时，这是一种自豪。

The challenging message that we inadvertently can send to our children is that we only love them because they got an A on the spelling test.

我们无意中向孩子传达的具有挑战性的信息是，我们爱他们只是因为他们在拼写测试中获得了 A。

And so, it's really critically important that we as parents do our own internal work to convey that unconditional love that is our birthright as human beings.

因此，作为父母，我们必须做好自己的内部工作，以传达无条件的爱，这是我们作为人类与生俱来的权利，这一点非常重要。

And we hold onto the goal because the goal is cool, because solving a puzzle is fun, because doing hard work and experiencing the reward from that is affirming, but your value as a human being is unshakable.

我们坚持目标，因为目标很酷，因为解决难题很有趣，因为努力工作并从中体验奖励是肯定的，但你作为人类的价值是不可动摇的。

Now, as a father, isn't that the feeling you want your child to have?

那么，作为父亲，您不希望自己的孩子也有这样的感觉吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

And there's a lot of parenting advice these days that helps you learn to do that.

现在有很多育儿建议可以帮助你学会这样做。

There's all these TikToks now, don't say good job.

现在有这么多 TikTok，别说干得好。

Just say good choice or great, hard work.

只是说好的选择或伟大的努力。

Great job working hard on that.

干得好，为此而努力。

Jerry Colonna: Right, right, right.

杰里·科隆纳：对，对，对。

I don't know how I feel about getting parenting advice from TikTok, but okay.

我不知道从 TikTok 获得育儿建议有何感想，但没关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to have Andrew Luo joining us today.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴安德鲁·罗今天加入我们。

Andrew is CEO of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

Andrew 是 OneSchema 的首席执行官，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Welcome, Andrew.

欢迎，安德鲁。

Andrew Luo: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

罗安德：谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what is new with OneSchema, I know that you work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp and Vanta and Watershed.

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的新功能是什么？我知道你们与我最喜欢的一些公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta 和 Watershed。

I heard you guys launch a new data intake product that automates the hours of manual work that teams spent importing and mapping and integrating CSV and Excel files.

我听说你们推出了一款新的数据获取产品，该产品可以自动执行团队导入、映射以及集成 CSV 和 Excel 文件所需的手动工作时间。

Andrew Luo: Yes.

罗安德鲁：是的。

So we just launched the 2.0 of OneSchema file feeds.

因此，我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema 文件源 2.0。

We've rebuilt it from the ground up with AI.

我们用人工智能从头开始重建它。

We saw so many customers coming to us with teams of data engineers that struggled with the manual work required to clean messy spreadsheets.

我们看到很多客户带着数据工程师团队来到我们这里，他们在清理凌乱的电子表格所需的手动工作中遇到了困难。

FileFeeds 2.0 allows non-technical teams to automate the process of transforming CSV and Excel files with just a simple prompt.

FileFeeds 2.0 允许非技术团队通过简单的提示来自动化转换 CSV 和 Excel 文件的过程。

We support all of the trickiest file integrations, SFTP, S3, and even email.

我们支持所有最棘手的文件集成、SFTP、S3，甚至电子邮件。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to take this off our roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么将其从我们的路线图中删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好？

Andrew Luo: Absolutely, Lenny.

罗安德鲁：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of outages from even just a single bad record in transactions, employee files, purchase orders, you name it.

我们听过很多可怕的停电故事，哪怕只是交易、员工档案、采购订单等方面的一个不良记录。

Debugging these issues is often like finding a needle in a haystack.

调试这些问题通常就像大海捞针一样。

OneSchema stops any bad data from entering your system and automatically validates your files, generating error reports with the exact issues in all bad files.

OneSchema 可阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统并自动验证您的文件，生成错误报告，其中包含所有不良文件中的确切问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Andrew, thank you so much for joining me.

安德鲁，非常感谢你加入我。

If you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to close loop on this, I think as people hear this, I feel like, okay, cool, everything falls apart.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这一点，我认为当人们听到这个时，我感觉，好吧，很酷，一切都崩溃了。

Sure, my parents will love me, my wife will love me, they won't think less of me.

当然，我的父母会爱我，我的妻子会爱我，他们不会轻视我。

However, it's nice to get that really nice couch and that nice hotel and the income, the comfort that comes with income at a certain level is hard to give up.

然而，能拥有一张非常漂亮的沙发、一家不错的酒店和收入，以及收入达到一定水平所带来的舒适感是很难放弃的。

How do you help people get past that that might go away and feel comfortable?

你如何帮助人们克服那些可能会消失的事情并感到舒适？

Jerry Colonna: Well, the good news is, and again, this is a Buddhist reference.

杰里·科隆纳：嗯，好消息是，这又是一个佛教参考文献。

The good news is there's a wisdom tradition that teaches all about this.

好消息是有一个智慧传统可以教导这一切。

So very briefly, the Buddhist story is in his mid-30s, he wakes up to the truth of birth, old age, sickness, and death.

非常简单地说，佛教故事是在他三十多岁的时候，他醒悟到生、老、病、死的真相。

Birth, old age, sickness and death.

生、老、病、死。

And he wanders into the forest and he becomes a wandering mendicant and he becomes a holy man, and he's still not satisfied.

他流浪到森林里，成为流浪托钵僧，成为圣人，但他仍然不满足。

And as I like to tell the story, one day he decides, fuck it, I'm just going to sit under the Bodhi tree and I'm not going to move until I figure this shit out.

正如我喜欢讲这个故事一样，有一天他决定，去他的，我就坐在菩提树下，在我弄清楚这个问题之前我不会动。

And so, he sits and sits and sits, and the story is he sat for 40 days living on a single grain of rice every day because always right, crazy stuff.

所以，他坐啊坐啊坐，故事是他坐了 40 天，每天靠一粒米过活，因为总是对的，疯狂的东西。

Jerry Colonna: And when he woke up, he woke up to the four noble truths and the four noble truths are life is filled with suffering, that which we do to push away suffering increases suffering.

杰里·科隆纳：当他醒来时，他醒悟到了四圣谛，这四圣谛是生命充满痛苦，我们为消除痛苦所做的一切只会增加痛苦。

The third noble truth is that there's an end to suffering.

第三个崇高真理是痛苦的终结。

That's a really important one.

这是非常重要的一点。

And the fourth noble truth is what's known as the eightfold path to the end of suffering.

第四圣谛是所谓的苦灭八正道。

Jerry Colonna: So let's focus on the second noble truth because that's really what you're talking about.

杰里·科隆纳：所以让我们关注第二个崇高的真理，因为这确实是你所说的。

When we acquire that nice couch, when we buy that nice house that stretches our income to its maximum, if we're doing it to enjoy the couch or the house, then A-OK.

当我们买了那张漂亮的沙发，当我们买了那栋漂亮的房子，可以最大限度地增加我们的收入，如果我们这样做是为了享受沙发或房子，那么就OK了。

But if we're doing it because we're trying to push away the suffering of am I good enough to be loved, to feel safe, and that I belong, that which we do to push away suffering will increase suffering.

但如果我们这样做是因为我们试图摆脱痛苦，因为我们是否足够好，可以被爱，是否有安全感，是否有归属感，那么我们为摆脱痛苦而做的事情就会增加痛苦。

And in this case, oh my God, what if they take my house away from me?

在这种情况下，天啊，如果他们把我的房子从我身边夺走怎么办？

Oh my God, what if I fall backwards down that staircase of life?

天啊，如果我从生命的阶梯上向后摔下去怎么办？

Oh my God, what if all of those people who have signed up to my Substack suddenly disappear?

天哪，如果所有注册了我的 Substack 的人突然消失了怎么办？

You see how the attachment becomes that source of suffering?

你知道执着如何成为痛苦的根源吗？

You see how the thing that we do to make ourselves feel better in fact fuels the tenuous hold that we have on our OK-ness?

你知道我们为了让自己感觉更好而做的事情实际上是如何助长了我们对自己的好感的脆弱把握吗？

I'm okay just as I am.

我就这样就好了。

I'm okay.

我没事。

Jerry Colonna: It all comes down to why we're doing what we're doing.

Jerry Colonna：这一切都取决于我们为什么要做我们正在做的事情。

Now, to be clear, this is hard for me.

现在，要明确的是，这对我来说很难。

I think it's hard for everybody.

我想这对每个人来说都很难。

When my first book came out, Dan Harris, who's a really good friend and client from 10% Happier said to me, "Don't read the Amazon reviews." The truth is, I've read two reviews.

当我的第一本书出版时，丹·哈里斯（Dan Harris）对我说：“不要读亚马逊的评论，他是我的好朋友，也是 10% Happier 的客户。”事实是，我读过两篇评论。

I read it in the first hour after it was released, and I've never read a review since because there's no way I can experience those reviews without becoming attached to how people feel.

我在它发布后的第一个小时就读了它，从那以后我再也没有读过任何评论，因为我不可能在不关注人们感受的情况下体验这些评论。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

I'll put it over here and I'll just stay focused on the experience that I get from writing.

我会把它放在这里，我会专注于我从写作中获得的经验。

Jerry Colonna: And yes, do I want to sell thousands of books?

杰里·科隆纳：是的，我想卖数千本书吗？

Do I want people to feel moved by my writing?

我想让人们被我的写作所感动吗？

I do, but you know who gets the most out of my writing?

我愿意，但你知道谁从我的作品中获益最多吗？

Me, because when I sit down, this is my file folder for whatever I might do for our next book, what I'm trying to do is answer questions that I have.

我，因为当我坐下来时，这是我的文件夹，用于存放我可能为下一本书做的任何事情，我想做的是回答我的问题。

For example, Captain Chaos is running the country right now.

例如，混沌队长现在正在统治这个国家。

What is it that the world is going to need two or three years from now?

两三年后世界将需要什么？

And what's my contribution to that world?

我对这个世界的贡献是什么？

Now, just as I say that, how does that feel to you?

现在，正如我所说，你感觉如何？

It's kind of settling.

这有点安定了。

So I know that in order for me to feel good about my existence on this planet, I have to ask myself these questions and I have to attempt to answer these questions.

所以我知道，为了让我对自己在这个星球上的存在感觉良好，我必须问自己这些问题，并且我必须尝试回答这些问题。

Whether it turns into a book that people buy or not is secondary, I have to do this work regardless.

不管它能不能成为人们购买的书，那是次要的，但我无论如何都要做这个工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: That super connects with exactly again, the way I started this whole thing is I started writing just to crystallize my own thinking, and it ends up being useful to other people.

Lenny Rachitsky：这种超级联系再次发生，我开始这整件事的方式是我开始写作只是为了具体化我自己的想法，它最终对其他人有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: People hear this and they're like, why would I want to give up this great couch and house and car and all these things?

Lenny Rachitsky：人们听到这个后会想，为什么我要放弃这张很棒的沙发、房子、汽车和所有这些东西？

That's really hard.

这真的很难。

And risking that by just doing something that feels good versus it'll make income, but it actually works.

冒着风险，只做一些感觉良好的事情，而不是赚钱，但它确实有效。

That's what I found.

这就是我发现的。

If you focus on a thing that is useful to yourself and interesting and not come at it from how do I make the most amount of money and turn this into whole thing, but more just, this is really interesting.

如果你专注于一件对自己有用且有趣的事情，而不是从如何赚最多的钱并将其变成整个事情来考虑，但更公正的是，这真的很有趣。

I'm going to see where this goes.

我要去看看这会发生什么。

It will work for me.

这对我有用。

Jerry Colonna: Lenny, you implicitly asked a how question a few minutes ago.

Jerry Colonna：Lenny，几分钟前你含蓄地问了一个“如何”的问题。

How do I do this?

我该怎么做？

How do I do this radical self-inquiry?

我该如何进行这种彻底的自我探究？

And I asked, I responded by offering a few questions.

我问了，我回答了几个问题。

Let's build upon that for a moment, because what you are articulating right now is in the process of asking those questions, you can go back to what Simon Sinek would say is your why.

让我们暂时以此为基础，因为你现在所阐述的是在提出这些问题的过程中，你可以回到西蒙·斯内克（Simon Sinek）所说的“为什么”。

You could go back to your core principle.

你可以回到你的核心原则。

You could go back to the centerpiece within you, which is what do I believe to be true about the world and how do I want to be in that world?

你可以回到你内心的核心，那就是我相信这个世界的真实性是什么，我想如何生活在那个世界里？

You know what animates me right now is a question?

你知道现在让我兴奋的是一个问题吗？

With my children being fully fledged adults, I am really focused on what kind of ancestor to my descendants would I like to be?

随着我的孩子们已经长大成人，我真正关注的是我想成为我的后代的什么样的祖先？

20 years from now, 30 years from now, 40 years from now, I'll be gone.

20年后、30年后、40年后，我就会离开。

What would I like those who follow after me to believe to be true about me?

我希望那些追随我的人相信我的哪些真实情况？

Jerry Colonna: And you just paused.

杰里·科隆纳：你刚才停了下来。

I can tell from the Adam's apple jumping up and down, that that question landed for you.

我从喉结上下跳动的动作就可以看出，这个问题落在了你的身上。

It's a question of legacy.

这是一个遗产问题。

It's a question of meaning and purpose.

这是一个意义和目的的问题。

At the end of my days, this is a question in Reboot, at the end of my days, what would I like the people who come after me to say about me?

在我生命的尽头，这是《重启》中的一个问题，在我生命的尽头，我希望那些追随我的人如何评价我？

And what I want people to say about me is that he gave a shit about the world, he cared, and he tried, and he was kind.

我希望人们对我的评价是，他不在乎这个世界，他关心，他尝试，而且他很友善。

Those are the things that matter to me.

这些对我来说很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm always reminded of that frame of reference when I go to a funeral and people reading the eulogy and the old advice of what do you want your eulogy to say and making that your mission.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：当我去参加葬礼，人们阅读悼词时，我总是会想起这个参考框架，以及关于你希望悼词说什么并将其作为你的使命的旧建议。

But on the flip side, there's this viral video of Mike Tyson.

但另一方面，迈克·泰森的这段病毒视频广为流传。

Someone was coming up to him I think before his big match recently, and asked him about his legacy, and he's like, "I don't give a shit about my legacy.

我想最近在他的重大比赛之前有人来找他，问他关于他的遗产，他说，“我才不在乎我的遗产。

It's just a made up thing that doesn't matter." So let me just ask you this.

这只是一个虚构的事情，并不重要。”所以让我问你这个问题。

Why is it important to think about legacy?

为什么思考遗产很重要？

Does legacy even matter?

遗产还重要吗？

We're dead.

我们死了。

What's the difference?

有什么区别？

Jerry Colonna: Far be it for me to criticize Mike, and don't hit me Mike, because even as an old guy, I wouldn't want to be hit by Mike Tyson.

杰里·科隆纳：我绝对不应该批评迈克，也不要打我迈克，因为即使作为一个老家伙，我也不想被迈克·泰森打。

I don't know what's behind his response, but I can tell you what's true for me.

我不知道他的反应背后是什么，但我可以告诉你我的真实情况。

I made oblique reference to Captain Chaos in the world as it is right now.

我间接提到了现在世界上的混沌队长。

The world's a tough place right now.

现在世界是一个艰难的地方。

We live in a world where it's almost normalized that a teenager will shoot other teenagers in school.

在我们生活的世界里，一个青少年在学校里向其他青少年开枪几乎是司空见惯的事情。

It's almost normalized that people are dragged off to jail.

人们被拖进监狱几乎是常态。

Something is happening, something that's really disturbing.

正在发生一些事情，一些非常令人不安的事情。

Jerry Colonna: Now, to be clear, we've always had disturbing times.

杰里·科隆纳：现在，需要明确的是，我们总是遇到令人不安的时刻。

I mean, I was reminded recently, I'm reading a book called Soldiers and Kings, which I highly recommend, which is about human smuggling from Central America into the United States, and it's an extraordinary book.

我的意思是，最近有人提醒我，我正在读一本叫做《士兵与国王》的书，我强烈推荐这本书，这本书是关于从中美洲偷渡到美国的，这是一本非凡的书。

And in reading that, I was reminded of policies that the US government has used over the years, whether it's supporting dictators in Central America or other sorts of things, things that I oppose, that feel immoral, if not directly immoral.

在读到这篇文章时，我想起了美国政府多年来所使用的政策，无论是支持中美洲的独裁者还是其他类型的事情，我反对的事情，即使不是直接不道德，也是不道德的。

Jerry Colonna: Why does this come up for me?

Jerry Colonna：为什么我会想到这个？

I can't shake the feeling that someone down the line in my lineage is going to ask of me, "And what did you do, grandpa?

我无法摆脱这种感觉，我的血统中有人会问我：“爷爷，你做了什么？

And what did you do, great grandpa?" I know what I want that answer to be, which is I tried.

那你做了什么，曾祖父？”我知道我想要的答案是什么，我已经尝试过了。

Lenny, God gave me the ability to put two sentences together in a way that people listen.

莱尼，上帝给了我以人们听的方式将两个句子组合在一起的能力。

I feel a moral responsibility to use that God-given gift to help create the world, that I would like to see, a world of kindness and empathy, a world where poverty is diminished, a world where people feel safe however the fuck they identify.

我感到有道义上的责任，利用上帝赐予的礼物来帮助创造一个我希望看到的世界，一个充满仁慈和同理心的世界，一个减少贫困的世界，一个人们无论他们怎么认为都感到安全的世界。

I don't give a damn.

我一点也不在乎。

So is that my legacy?

那么这就是我的遗产吗？

Yeah, and maybe there's some ego implicit in that, but can I go on for just a bit on this?

是的，也许其中隐含着一些自我意识，但我可以继续谈一下吗？

Jerry Colonna: At the end of Reboot, I write about this moment, and in this moment I am in Marin County.

杰里·科隆纳：在《重启》的结尾，我写下了这一刻，而这一刻我就在马林县。

My wife Allie and I are together.

我和我的妻子艾莉在一起。

And I'm once again torturing myself with this question.

我又用这个问题来折磨自己。

Have I been a good man?

我是个好人吗？

I drive myself crazy with that question.

这个问题让我快要发疯了。

Have I been a good father?

我是一个好父亲吗？

Have I been a good partner?

我是一个好的合作伙伴吗？

Have I been a good man?

我是个好人吗？

And she says, in a very frustrated way, "All right, already.

她以一种非常沮丧的方式说道：“好吧，已经了。

Enough.

够了。

You're a good man.

你是个好人。

Stop." And so, I go for a walk, and as I'm walking, I encounter this toppled over oak tree and the roots are all torn up and you've seen trees like this, and clearly the tree died and clearly a wind came and clearly knocked the whole thing down.

停下来。”所以，我去散步，当我走路的时候，我遇到了一棵倒下的橡树，根部都被撕裂了，你见过这样的树，显然这棵树死了，显然一阵风吹来，显然把整个树吹倒了。

And I look at the tree and I say to myself, "Here lies a good man."

我看着那棵树，对自己说：“这里躺着一个好人。”

Jerry Colonna: And I liken myself to this toppled over oak tree, and I imagine that that tree had lived its life with its limbs gnarled and twisted by actions that it should have taken and actions that it shouldn't have taken, but good choices and bad choices.

杰里·科隆纳：我把自己比作这棵倒下的橡树，我想象那棵树的一生，其四肢因它应该采取的行动和不应该采取的行动而变得粗糙和扭曲，但有好的选择，也有坏的选择。

But that for the majority of its 75, 80 years, it lived into its purpose of providing shelter and shade for those that may have come from beneath it.

但在其 75、80 年的大部分时间里，它都实现了为来自其下方的人们提供庇护所和阴凉的目的。

And I make this point that at the end of my days, I want to be like this tree just slowly dissolving into the earth, having done the best job I could of being purposeful.

我指出，在我生命的最后一刻，我想像这棵树一样慢慢地融入大地，尽我所能，有目标地完成工作。

I feel better.

我感觉好多了。

My suffering is eased when I can lean into that, which then makes me able to be present for the other person, whether it's a coaching client, whether it's a podcast conversation, whether it's just going for a walk with one of my children.

当我能够依靠这一点时，我的痛苦就会减轻，这让我能够为他人提供帮助，无论是辅导客户，无论是播客对话，还是只是和我的一个孩子一起散步。

I just feel better, and I think I am a better person when I think about things like that.

我只是感觉好多了，当我想到这样的事情时，我认为我是一个更好的人。

So far be it from me to disagree with Mike Tyson, but I think he's wrong.

到目前为止，我不同意迈克·泰森的观点，但我认为他错了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good callback.

Lenny Rachitsky：很好的回调。

It sounds like The Giving Tree to me.

对我来说，这听起来像是捐赠树。

Jerry Colonna: Oh, yes, yes.

杰里·科隆纳：哦，是的，是的。

Shel Silverstein.

谢尔·西尔弗斯坦。

Lenny Rachitsky: To give people something to do with this area of legacy.

Lenny Rachitsky：让人们对这一遗产领域有所了解。

How did you approach coming up with figuring out what you wanted your legacy to be?

您是如何想出您想要留下什么遗产的？

Are there some questions you asked?

你问过一些问题吗？

Is there something you recommend folks do to help think through this for themselves?

您是否建议人们做一些事情来帮助自己思考这个问题？

Jerry Colonna: Well, it's delightful that we've ended up here because I think that I'm still working through those questions.

Jerry Colonna：嗯，很高兴我们能来到这里，因为我认为我仍在解决这些问题。

As I said before as we both connected with, I use my writing to find my way to answers to questions.

正如我之前所说，当我们都联系时，我用我的写作来寻找问题的答案。

So part of what I'm dealing with right now is, look, I'll turn 62 this year.

所以我现在要处理的部分事情是，看，我今年就 62 岁了。

That feels old, but it also feels settled.

感觉很老旧，但也有安定的感觉。

And part of what I'm trying to figure out is what do I want my elderhood to be like?

我想要弄清楚的一部分是我希望我的老年生活是什么样的？

And I'll be honest, I'm enjoying this time of my life where I'm finding myself being a voice of comfort, being a voice of maybe even sanity in a time where that feels really insane and challenging.

老实说，我很享受生命中的这段时间，我发现自己是一个安慰的声音，在一个感觉非常疯狂和充满挑战的时代，甚至是一个理智的声音。

So maybe that's what my legacy will be.

所以也许这就是我的遗产。

I'm not 100% sure.

我不是100%确定。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is this maybe hinted the new book you're working on?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是否暗示了你正在写的新书？

Is this the topic you're thinking about or is this not?

这是您正在考虑的主题还是不是？

Jerry Colonna: Yeah, and other things.

杰里·科隆纳：是的，还有其他事情。

That's right.

这是正确的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of the world being very crazy right now, you talked about your kids, AI is very top of mind for a lot of people in particular.

Lenny Rachitsky：谈到现在的世界非常疯狂，您谈到了您的孩子，人工智能对于很多人来说尤其重要。

It's stressing a lot of people out.

这给很多人带来了压力。

In a lot of ways, it's quite unsettling in future careers, in skills, people-

从很多方面来说，这对未来的职业、技能、人员来说都是相当令人不安的——

Lenny Rachitsky: Quite unsettling, but there's a world where we don't need humans in the future, potentially.

Lenny Rachitsky：相当令人不安，但未来有一个世界可能不需要人类。

Just what advice do you share with clients to help them work through this period of worry with the future, with AI being the core of it?

您与客户分享了哪些建议来帮助他们度过这段以人工智能为核心的对未来的担忧时期？

Jerry Colonna: Well, if we go back to the equation for a moment, I think it's really important that we actually talk about these things.

杰里·科隆纳：好吧，如果我们回到等式上一会儿，我认为我们真正讨论这些事情非常重要。

I would say a year ago, I likened it to the experience that I had.

我想说，一年前，我把它比作我的经历。

Remember, I'm old enough to remember when not everything had an IP address.

请记住，我已经足够大了，还记得不是所有东西都有 IP 地址的时候。

Now, our refrigerators have IP addresses.

现在，我们的冰箱都有IP地址了。

I mean, it's freaking crazy.

我的意思是，这太疯狂了。

I'm old enough to remember when you had to install an IP stack into your personal computer in order to connect to the web.

我已经足够大了，还记得当您必须在个人计算机中安装 IP 堆栈才能连接到网络时。

That's how old I am.

我就这么岁数了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did you have the phone modem where you had to put the phone?

Lenny Rachitsky：你有电话调制解调器吗？

Jerry Colonna: Absolutely.

杰里·科隆纳：当然。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

It was a big, big deal to go from 1,200 baud to 2,400 baud to 56K.

从 1,200 波特到 2,400 波特再到 56K，这是一件非常非常大的事情。

Oh my God, it was like a rocket ship.

天哪，这就像一艘火箭飞船。

A year ago, I thought we were going through a similar kind of transition.

一年前，我以为我们正在经历类似的转变。

We're clearly not.

我们显然不是。

This is different.

这是不同的。

And in the coaching therapeutic world, everybody's like, "Oh my God, ChatGPT is going to replace me." And I don't know, maybe.

在教练治疗领域，每个人都会说，“天哪，ChatGPT 将取代我。”我不知道，也许吧。

What I am finding is...

我发现的是...

I wear glasses.

我戴眼镜。

So for those of you who are only listening to the audio, you may find that news.

所以对于那些只听音频的人来说，你可能会发现这个新闻。

What I am finding is in my own life, it's like I have put on a pair of glasses that are really, really sharp and helpful, and it is disturbing and unsettling because I think it does challenge this question of what is our role as human beings?

我在自己的生活中发现的，就像我戴上了一副非常非常锋利且有用的眼镜，这令人不安和不安，因为我认为它确实挑战了我们作为人类的角色是什么？

Jerry Colonna: Now, what I come back to, and I could be wrong, but what I come back to is we're talking through a medium, a mediated experience.

杰里·科隆纳：现在，我回过头来，我可能是错的，但我回过头来，我们正在通过一种媒介、一种中介体验进行交谈。

My signal is bouncing up into the sky and to a satellite.

我的信号正在反弹到天空和卫星。

I won't name the company, it's coming back down.

我不会透露这家公司的名字，它正在回归。

I don't know what your access is.

我不知道你的访问权限是什么。

We're using this platform or a site to record this, but somehow we're still finding the capacity to be present for one another in a heart-to-heart way.

我们正在使用这个平台或网站来记录这一点，但不知何故，我们仍然找到了以心连心的方式彼此呈现的能力。

Jerry Colonna: And so, when I look at these phenomena, what I lift up is that.

杰里·科隆纳：所以，当我看到这些现象时，我想到的是这一点。

What I am hopeful about is that that which does not matter in the experience of being human gets burned away and is taken care of, call it by AI, but that that which matters, which is presence and connection, human-to-human contact, strategic thinking, formulation, you want to talk about it in terms of engineering, the conceptualization, that that gets elevated and our skills get better at doing that.

我所希望的是，人类体验中那些不重要的东西会被烧掉并被人工智能处理掉，但重要的东西，即存在和联系、人与人之间的接触、战略思维、制定，你想从工程、概念化的角度来谈论它，这些东西会得到提升，我们的技能会变得更好。

And in the most optimistic point of view, what ends up happening is we spend more time on that which matters, and less time on that which doesn't matter.

从最乐观的角度来看，最终发生的情况是我们花更多的时间在重要的事情上，而在不重要的事情上花更少的时间。

And I could be completely wrong and we could all be out of work and making sure that the robots are well-oiled, and that becomes our purpose.

我可能完全错了，我们都可能失业，确保机器人运转良好，这就是我们的目的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines of glasses and even coaching, the world of coaching, there's a really interesting use case I saw today that Dan Shipper shared that I think you'd love, which is now that ChatGPT has memory, remembers everything you've said, and you can think back, you can ask it, "What are blank spots in the way I see the world that I'm not seeing?" You could also upload all your chat transcripts from your meetings and ask it what could you do better in meetings?

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着眼镜甚至教练的思路，教练的世界，我今天看到了一个非常有趣的用例，Dan Shipper 分享了我认为你会喜欢的，那就是 ChatGPT 现在有记忆，记住你说过的一切，你可以回想，你可以问它，“我看待世界的方式中有哪些我没有看到的空白？”您还可以上传会议中的所有聊天记录，并询问它您在会议中可以做得更好吗？

Jerry Colonna: Look, one of my colleagues in the coaching company, he has uploaded, he kept all of his journal entries, I think over 10 years journal entries from Evernote, and he uploaded that.

Jerry Colonna：看，我在教练公司的一位同事，他上传了，他保存了所有的日记条目，我想是来自 Evernote 10 多年的日记条目，他上传了这些条目。

I think he uses Claude, and he's asked Claude to highlight things.

我认为他利用了克劳德，并且他要求克劳德强调一些事情。

What am I not saying that I need to say?

哪些是我没说而我需要说的？

What am I saying that's not being heard?

我说了什么没人听见？

He's asked it to reflect back, and I think it's been incredibly helpful for him.

他要求它进行反思，我认为这对他非常有帮助。

I think the result is that he is a better coach, which is interesting, because the feeling is, well, does this replace it?

我认为结果是他是一个更好的教练，这很有趣，因为感觉是，嗯，这会取代它吗？

I am finding, I'm using ChatGPT really as a writing and thinking partner in a way that I did not have before, and I'm still using my live real human writing buddies, which are really important to me.

我发现，我正在以一种以前从未有过的方式使用 ChatGPT 作为写作和思考的伙伴，而且我仍在使用我的真实人类写作伙伴，这对我来说非常重要。

Where does this all end up?

这一切最终会走向何方？

I had no idea.

我不知道。

It is unsettling, it's uncanny, and it's also enlivening and exciting.

它令人不安、不可思议，但也令人兴奋和兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well put.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：说得好。

I love that you can ask these hard questions of Claude/ChatGPT, these questions that make you really scared could ask it what are the answers, and even not have to do the hard work and maybe get a better answer.

我喜欢你可以问 Claude/ChatGPT 这些难题，这些让你真的害怕的问题可以问它答案是什么，甚至不需要做艰苦的工作，也许会得到更好的答案。

I doubt that that will give you the best answers.

我怀疑这会给你最好的答案。

Jerry Colonna: Well, what it might do, which I think would be wonderful, is it might give you more questions to ask yourself.

杰里·科隆纳：嗯，它可能会带来什么，我认为这会很棒，它可能会给你更多的问题来问自己。

I'm a huge fan of powerful questions and the answer I give to a question like what am I not saying that I need to say?

我非常喜欢强有力的问题和我对诸如我没有说但我需要说的问题给出的答案。

That question, you can ask yourself that question every single day.

这个问题，你可以每天问自己这个问题。

The question of how have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don't want?

问题是我是如何参与创造我所说的我不想要的条件的？

You can ask yourself that question every single day.

你可以每天问自己这个问题。

To take a step back, the subtitle of my first book is Leadership in the Art of Growing Up.

退一步来说，我第一本书的副标题是“成长艺术中的领导力”。

The Art of Growing Up is a practice.

成长的艺术是一种实践。

It's not a scientific moment where one day you wake up and you're done.

这不是一个科学的时刻，有一天你醒来就完成了。

It's an ongoing practice of not continuous improvement, but continuous inquiry that can feel exhausting when you contemplate it, but enlivening when you live it.

这是一种持续的实践，不是持续的改进，而是持续的探究，当你思考它时，你会感到筋疲力尽，但当你生活在其中时，你会感到充满活力。

Lenny Rachitsky: All this, some people may think of as this whole idea of growth mindset.

Lenny Rachitsky：所有这些，有些人可能认为是成长心态的整个理念。

I know that you're not a big fan of this term, that it's used in a harmful way a lot of times.

我知道您不太喜欢这个术语，它多次被以有害的方式使用。

Can you just talk about that why you find that growth mindset as a concept isn't necessarily useful?

您能谈谈为什么您认为成长心态作为一个概念不一定有用吗？

Jerry Colonna: Here's what I have a problem with.

Jerry Colonna：这就是我的问题所在。

First of all, having a growth mindset is a very, very helpful thing.

首先，拥有成长心态是一件非常非常有帮助的事情。

What I have a problem is in having and how we can turn a notion like a growth mindset into a fixed mindset, which is, it's this funny little trick the ego does, and the ego says, "Okay, well, this is a growth mindset.

我的问题在于我们如何将成长型思维模式转变为固定型思维模式，也就是说，这是自我所做的一个有趣的小把戏，而自我说，“好吧，好吧，这是一种成长型思维模式。

Oh, this is not a growth mindset.

哦，这不是成长心态。

Okay, then this is good.

好吧，那这样就好了。

This is not good.

这不好。

This is bad.

这很糟糕。

This is..." What Buddhism has taught me is that everything's falling apart all the time even our growth mindset.

这是……”佛教教导我的是，一切事物都在不断崩溃，甚至我们的成长心态也不例外。

When we get too fixed on the proper way to do things, we're setting ourselves up for attachment and therefore suffering.

当我们过于执着于正确的做事方式时，我们就会陷入依恋，从而遭受痛苦。

So if you can hold something like a mindset loosely with that attachment, go for it.

所以，如果你能用这种执着来松散地保持某种心态，比如心态，那就去做吧。

Have a blast.

玩得开心。

Enjoy it.

好好享受。

But the minute you start to nail it down to the floor and say this is the way it ought to be, I ought to always have a growth mindset, you've become fixed.

但当你开始把它钉在地板上并说这就是它应该的方式，我应该始终保持成长心态时，你就已经固定了。

And that's what the ego does.

这就是自我所做的。

Jerry Colonna: To be more explicit about it from a business context for example, the great business writer Peter Senge says, "It is virtually impossible to challenge the assumptions that made you rich in the first place." So think about it in our experience of starting a business.

杰里·科隆纳（Jerry Colonna）：例如，从商业角度更明确地讲，伟大的商业作家彼得·圣吉（Peter Senge）说：“几乎不可能挑战最初让你致富的假设。”所以以我们创业的经历来思考一下。

We have what the Zen Buddhist would say, beginner's mind, all things are possible.

我们有禅宗所说的，初心，一切皆有可能。

And then, we experience, you were talking about it a little before, a little bit of success, and the ego, which is so terrified of not having success, start to say, "Aha, this is the way to do it." And then, we start to deviate from that because life happens and then the anxiety starts.

然后，我们体验到，你之前谈论过一点点成功，而自我，非常害怕没有成功，开始说，“啊哈，这就是做到这一点的方法。”然后，我们开始偏离这一点，因为生活发生了，然后焦虑就开始了。

So the question is, how do you hold a growth mindset loosely knowing that you ought to stay present to the world as it is, respond to the changing dynamics, figure out what's next because that's the growth.

所以问题是，你如何松散地保持成长心态，知道你应该保持对世界的现状，对不断变化的动态做出反应，弄清楚接下来会发生什么，因为这就是成长。

So put succinctly, stay attached to the growth and hold mindset a little loosely.

简而言之，就是关注增长并保持宽松的心态。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

It reminds me of advice.

这让我想起了建议。

I did a meditation retreat once, and there's always a sense with Buddhism, and it's interesting how often Buddhism and advice from Buddhist teachings comes up on this podcast by the way.

我参加过一次冥想静修，总有一种佛教的感觉，顺便说一句，有趣的是，佛教和佛教教义的建议经常出现在这个播客上。

Jerry Colonna: When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Jerry Colonna：当学生准备好时，老师就会出现。

You are inviting it in, but keep going.

你正在邀请它进来，但请继续。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense as you say that.

Lenny Rachitsky：你这么说是有道理的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

So there's this fear I think people have with Buddhist teachings that you will not be as ambitious and you will not achieve as much if you're not attaching.

因此，我认为人们对佛教教义有这样的恐惧，如果你不执着，你就不会那么雄心勃勃，也不会取得那么多成就。

Jerry Colonna: If you're not anxiously chasing something.

Jerry Colonna：如果你不焦急地追逐某件事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, exactly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，完全正确。

If you're just like, "Why do I need that?

如果你只是想，“为什么我需要那个？

I don't need to be the CEO of the VP because like, oh, I won't attach to that." And then, so people fear that downside.

我不需要成为副总裁的首席执行官，因为就像，哦，我不会依附于此。”然后，人们担心这种负面影响。

So I asked this question at this retreat and the advice they shared there was don't attach to this idea, but just point your cart in that direction and head there.

所以我在这次静修会上问了这个问题，他们在那里分享的建议并不依附于这个想法，而只是将你的购物车指向那个方向，然后前往那里。

Jerry Colonna: Yeah, I like that.

杰里·科隆纳：是的，我喜欢这样。

Look, the fear you're talking about is the fear of complacency.

看，你所说的恐惧是对自满的恐惧。

And if we look at the structures of the mind and we look at our socialization, the way we're socialized to ward off complacency is anxiety.

如果我们观察心灵的结构和我们的社会化，就会发现我们通过社会化来避免自满的方式就是焦虑。

And so, if we go back to some of the things we were saying before, if I grow up believing that the way I'm going to make my parents love me is by achieving, then if I become complacent, then what's at risk is their love for me.

所以，如果我们回到之前说过的一些事情，如果我长大后相信，我要让父母爱我的方式就是通过成就，那么如果我变得自满，那么他们对我的爱就会面临风险。

So just like we made the connection before where unconditional love exists, unconditional positive regard for self, otherwise known as self-compassion can be a powerful motivator, especially when you get to the point where you say, "As painful as it is for me to write, I enjoy writing.

因此，就像我们之前建立的联系一样，无条件的爱存在，无条件的积极尊重自我，也称为自我同情，可以成为强大的动力，尤其是当你说：“尽管写作对我来说很痛苦，但我喜欢写作。

I enjoy working out.

我喜欢锻炼。

I enjoy pushing myself.

我喜欢推动自己。

I don't necessarily enjoy it in the moment." But I certainly, when I look at two books on my desk and I say, "You know what?

我现在不一定喜欢它。”但我当然可以，当我看着桌上的两本书时，我说：“你知道吗？

That feels good.

感觉很好。

That makes me happy."

这让我很高兴。”

Jerry Colonna: To me, the ability to hold the seeming contradiction of those things is a hallmark of my adulthood.

杰里·科隆纳：对我来说，能够处理这些看似矛盾的事情是我成年的标志。

It's to get satisfaction out of hard work for me is a much greater motivator than fear of complacency.

对我来说，从努力工作中获得满足感比担心自满更能激励我。

As I've sort of slip-slided my way into that place, I have found...

当我不知不觉地进入那个地方时，我发现......

I work seven days a week.

我每周工作 7 天。

I don't have to, but I enjoy it.

我不需要，但我很享受。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's another, maybe a last area I want to spend some time on, which is around teams and what often causes trouble for teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有另一个领域，也许是我想花时间讨论的最后一个领域，它与团队有关，并且经常给团队带来麻烦。

What breaks teams?

是什么破坏了团队？

What breaks companies?

是什么让公司崩溃？

You have this point, you make that it's rarely lack of talent on the team, lack of strategy, lack of execution, that it's something else.

你有这一点，你说团队很少缺乏人才，缺乏战略，缺乏执行力，这是另外一回事。

What is that something else?

那是什么别的东西？

What often do you find as the source of the problem for teams that aren't working?

对于无法正常工作的团队，您经常发现问题的根源是什么？

Jerry Colonna: Well, it's the unresolved, I'll be dramatic with the language, demons from their childhood.

杰里·科隆纳：好吧，这是一个悬而未决的问题，我会用戏剧性的语言，描述他们童年时期的恶魔。

It's the unsorted baggage.

这是未分类的行李。

Here's what happens.

事情是这样的。

Teams are groups, and there are group dynamics that always happen.

团队就是群体，群体动态总是会发生。

There is the scapegoat, there is the truth-teller who has to say, "Let me tell you what's really wrong with everything going on." Without the individual's radical self-inquiry skills, groups tend to be condemned to repeating patterns oftentimes of their family of origin.

有替罪羊，有说真话的人，他必须说：“让我告诉你，正在发生的一切到底出了什么问题。”如果个人没有彻底的自我探究能力，群体往往会被迫重复其原生家庭的模式。

Jerry Colonna: I'll tell you a quick story.

杰里·科隆纳：我给你讲一个简短的故事。

There's a very famous software blogger, blogger-owned software that I coached for many years, and we were doing an executive team meeting, and something happened in the group as we were talking that I observed once, twice, and three times, and finally, I said, "Okay, guys, I'm seeing something happen here.

有一个非常著名的软件博主，博主拥有的软件，我辅导了很多年，我们正在召开执行团队会议，当我们谈话时，小组中发生了一些事情，我观察了一次，两次，三次，最后，我说，“好吧，伙计们，我看到这里发生了一些事情。

Every time we get close to talking about something that's really painful, somebody makes a joke and all the energy disappears and everybody laughs and everybody's nice." And as soon as I said it, my client who was CEO at the time said, "Jesus Christ, that's just like my family." It was like, yes, that's just like your family.

每当我们快要谈论一些真正痛苦的事情时，有人开了个玩笑，所有的能量都消失了，每个人都笑了，每个人都很好。”我一说完，当时担任首席执行官的客户就说：“天哪，这就像我的家人一样。”就像，是的，这就像你的家人一样。

Jerry Colonna: Carl Jung once said, "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." Let's apply it here.

杰里·科隆纳：卡尔·荣格曾经说过，“除非你让无意识变得有意识，否则它将指导你的生活，你将称之为命运。”让我们在这里应用它。

Until you make conscious the unconscious patterns operating in the group, the group will continue to repeat those patterns and you will blame somebody in the group.

除非你意识到团队中运作的无意识模式，否则团队将继续重复这些模式，而你会责怪团队中的某人。

Romantic relationships from a Buddhist perspective, part of what we do in romantic relationships is we find the perfect foil for us to work out our unconscious phenomena.

从佛教的角度来看，浪漫关系是我们在浪漫关系中所做的一部分，就是找到完美的陪衬来解决我们的无意识现象。

When we join a group, when we form up in teams and organizations, we are unconsciously finding the perfect foils for us to work out our own shit.

当我们加入一个团体，当我们组成团队和组织时，我们会不知不觉地找到完美的陪衬来解决我们自己的问题。

So if you want to create a high-functioning team, do your work, and it starts with the person who has the most power in the group.

因此，如果你想创建一个高效的团队，就从团队中最有权力的人开始，做好你的工作。

If that person refuses to do their work, the entire group will become a manifestation of early dysfunction in the individual's lives.

如果这个人拒绝做他们的工作，整个团队将成为个人生活中早期功能障碍的表现。

Does that make any sense?

这有什么意义吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: 100%.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：100%。

And this comes up a number of times on this podcast, just the impact the leaders issues have on the rest of the team, and also just this idea that the conditions they're trying to avoid are the conditions they invite in because they're avoiding.

这在这个播客中出现了很多次，就是领导者问题对团队其他成员的影响，还有这样一种想法，即他们试图避免的条件正是他们因为避免而邀请的条件。

Jerry Colonna: That's it.

杰里·科隆纳：就是这样。

That's it.

就是这样。

One of my favorite teachers and dear friends is Parker Palmer, and he builds on, I think it was Socrates who said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." And he builds on that and makes a joke, and he says, "But if you choose to live an unexamined life, please don't take a job that involves other people." And that's it.

我最喜欢的老师和亲爱的朋友之一是帕克·帕尔默（Parker Palmer），我认为是苏格拉底所说的“未经审视的生活不值得过”。他在此基础上开了个玩笑，他说：“但是如果你选择过一种未经审视的生活，请不要接受涉及其他人的工作。”就是这样。

You have a responsibility to examine your own shit.

你有责任审视一下你自己的狗屎。

Lenny Rachitsky: So say you're on this team, so there's two sides of this.

Lenny Rachitsky：假设你在这个团队中，那么这有两个方面。

You're on a team, the leaders clearly got some stuff that they need to work through, but they're not.

你在一个团队中，领导者显然有一些需要解决的问题，但他们没有。

Is there something you can do there other than just, "Hey, please, this is hurting us?" And then from the leader's perspective listening to this, what should they do?

除了“嘿，拜托，这伤害了我们”之外，你还能做些什么吗？那么从领导的角度听了这话，他们该怎么办？

Is it get a coach?

是找教练吗？

What can you do?

你能做什么？

Jerry Colonna: So for the one who has less power?

杰里·科隆纳：那么对于权力较小的人来说呢？

Jerry Colonna: One of the things to ask oneself is what draws me to this position in the first place?

杰里·科隆纳：要问自己的一件事是，首先是什么吸引我担任这个职位？

How have I been complicit, not responsible in creating the conditions I say I don't want.

我是如何同谋、不负责任地创造了我所说的我不想要的条件。

How have I benefited from the dysfunction that exists in this organization?

我如何从这个组织中存在的功能障碍中受益？

And benefit is a funny word.

利益是一个有趣的词。

It doesn't necessarily mean I'm making more money.

这并不一定意味着我赚了更多的钱。

It means, for example, a benefit might be, boy, this feels familiar.

这意味着，例如，一个好处可能是，男孩，这感觉很熟悉。

I always find myself working on teams that are dysfunctional in this way.

我总是发现自己在这样的功能失调的团队中工作。

What is there in that experience for me to learn?

这段经历有什么值得我学习的？

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

Jerry Colonna: You asked about the person who has power.

杰里·科隆纳：你问的是有权力的人。

You were using the word leader.

你用的是领导者这个词。

I will talk about power, and you threw out, well, should they get a coach?

我会谈论权力，然后你就放弃了，那么，他们应该找个教练吗？

Let's put it into larger context.

让我们把它放在更大的背景下。

Should you examine your life with radical self-inquiry?

你应该彻底地自我探究来审视你的生活吗？

Yes.

是的。

I would argue that the more power you have, the more moral responsibility you have to actually pause and figure out what it is that you're doing to be complicit in creating the conditions you say you don't want.

我认为，你拥有的权力越多，你就越需要承担道德责任，真正停下来思考一下，你到底在做什么，共同创造了你所说的你不想要的条件。

Jerry Colonna: To be a very quick example what I'm talking about.

Jerry Colonna：这是我正在谈论的一个非常简单的例子。

A couple of years ago, I was doing a talk at a venture firm's CEO portfolio summit, the portfolio company's CEO summit.

几年前，我在一家风险投资公司的首席执行官投资组合峰会（投资组合公司的首席执行官峰会）上发表演讲。

And we're sitting in a room, and of course I'm walking around again with shoes off and whatever, and people are firing questions at me.

我们坐在一个房间里，当然，我又脱掉鞋子走来走去，人们向我提出问题。

And one woman says, "Well, I'm the CEO of this 15-person company, and I have a question for you.

一位女士说：“好吧，我是这家 15 人公司的首席执行官，我有一个问题要问你。

Why is it that nobody on my team can make a decision without me?" And I said, "Who hired them?" And she, "Well..." I said, "Okay, how does it make you feel when they make a decision that you disagree with?" She said, "I'm furious." "Well, how can you hire people whom you expect to make decisions without running them through you if you can't tolerate them making a decision that you disagree with?"

为什么我的团队中没有人可以在没有我的情况下做出决定？”我说：“谁雇用了他们？”她，“嗯……”我说，“好吧，当他们做出你不同意的决定时，你感觉如何？”她说：“我很生气。” “好吧，如果你不能容忍他们做出你不同意的决定，你怎么能雇佣那些你希望做出决定的人而不经过你的考验呢？”

Jerry Colonna: You want to build a scaled leadership team, you have to be willing to have them make boneheaded decisions.

杰里·科隆纳：你想建立一个规模化的领导团队，你必须愿意让他们做出愚蠢的决定。

And that's really, really hard, especially if we're "in founder mode" driving all the decisions.

这真的非常非常困难，特别是如果我们“处于创始人模式”推动所有决策。

So that's your growth edge.

这就是你的增长优势。

We were talking about before about growth mindset.

我们之前讨论过成长心态。

That's your growth edge.

这就是你的成长优势。

How can I be with the people in my life making boneheaded decisions about something that I care so much about and what is the best way for me to be in relationship about that?

我怎样才能与我生活中的人一起对我非常关心的事情做出愚蠢的决定？对我来说，与之建立关系的最佳方式是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: So much of this comes back to that question we started this with of just how are you complicit in creating the conditions you don't want?

Lenny Rachitsky：这很大程度上又回到了我们开始时提出的问题，即你如何同谋创造你不想要的条件？

A big takeaway for me here, and it just keeps coming up and again and again, is if you're struggling as a leader, if your company's not working as well as you wanted to, if you're having a hard time with your team, going back to that equation, it's not about building more skills like public speaking skills or email skills, or I don't know, financial skills.

对我来说，一个重要的收获是，如果你作为一个领导者正在苦苦挣扎，如果你的公司没有按照你想要的方式运作，如果你和你的团队相处得很困难，那么回到这个等式，这不是要培养更多的技能，比如公开演讲技能或电子邮件技能，或者我不知道，财务技能。

It's self-awareness, radical self-inquiry, understanding what drives you, what makes you happy.

这是自我意识，彻底的自我探究，了解是什么驱使你，什么让你快乐。

Is that generally correct?

这通常是正确的吗？

Jerry Colonna: Lenny, I was just going to say, you just made me so happy you saying what you just said.

杰里·科隆纳：莱尼，我只是想说，你刚才说的话让我很高兴。

Yes.

是的。

I've been coaching now, as I said for a couple of decades.

正如我所说，我现在一直在当教练，几十年了。

Before that, I was a VC for 15, 17 years.

在此之前，我做了 15、17 年的风险投资。

What you just said is the wisdom of my 40 years as an adult.

你刚才说的，是我40年成人的智慧。

That's it.

就是这样。

This is why radical self-inquiry is so damned important because it leads to a little bit less suffering and a lot more resilience.

这就是为什么彻底的自我探究是如此重要，因为它可以减少一点痛苦并增强更多的韧性。

Lenny Rachitsky: For folks that want to actually do that, well, they can rewind back to the middle of the episode where we actually ask the questions that are associated with the radical self-inquiry, and then obviously if they want to dig deeper, they can buy your book.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些想要真正做到这一点的人来说，他们可以倒回到本集的中间，我们实际上提出了与激进的自我探究相关的问题，然后显然如果他们想深入挖掘，他们可以购买你的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or 100 copies for everyone at the company willing to Amazon.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者为公司中愿意亚马逊的每个人提供 100 份。

Jerry, is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think is really important for people to hear maybe as the last piece of wisdom?

杰里，还有什么我们没有提到的，你认为对人们来说真正重要的也许是最后的智慧吗？

Jerry Colonna: Now one of the hopes that I have you ask me at the start like what would be my hope is that we ended up being closer and friends, and I feel that.

杰里·科隆纳：现在，我希望你一开始就问我什么，我的希望是我们最终变得更亲密，成为朋友，我也这么觉得。

Let me extend that out to everybody.

让我将其推广给所有人。

What I always hope from all of these intimate conversations that I try to do in podcasts is that people walk away going, "Geez, I'm not alone." We've made different references to the fact that it's a hard time.

我一直希望从我在播客中尝试进行的所有这些亲密对话中，人们离开时会说：“天哪，我并不孤单。”我们对现在的困难时期做出了不同的表述。

The truth is it's always a hard time.

事实是，这总是一段艰难的时光。

And what makes it hardest is to feel like I'm the only one who's going through this.

最难受的是感觉我是唯一一个正在经历这一切的人。

So what I appreciate about what you do, Lenny, is that under the guise of talking about product, you're really talking about the process of being human.

所以，莱尼，我对你所做的事情的欣赏是，在谈论产品的幌子下，你实际上是在谈论人类的过程。

And that is a mitzvah.

这就是成人礼。

That's a good deed.

这是一件好事。

And so, I hope in the process of listening to this, people walk away going, "Okay, I feel a little bit better today."

所以，我希望在听这个的过程中，人们会走开，说：“好吧，我今天感觉好一点了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I really appreciate that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我真的很感激。

The way I think about these sorts of conversations and episodes, I call them Trojan Horse episodes where people come for the other stuff, tactical, practical stuff, and then they get stuff they really need to hear.

我思考这类对话和情节的方式，我称之为特洛伊木马情节，人们来这里是为了其他的东西，战术的，实用的东西，然后他们得到他们真正需要听到的东西。

And so, I appreciate you.

所以，我很欣赏你。

Jerry, thank you so much for being here.

杰瑞，非常感谢你来到这里。

Jerry Colonna: Thank you for having me.

杰里·科隆纳：谢谢你邀请我。

It was a delight.

这是一种乐趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Same for me.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对我来说也是如此。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。