'$1M to $10M: The enterprise sales playbook with Jen Abel'

Jen Abel: You need to vision cast, you need to sell to a gap, don't sell to a problem.

Jen Abel：你需要进行愿景投射，你需要向差距推销，而不是向问题推销。

When you're selling to a leader, you need to be selling an opportunity.

当你向领导者推销产品时，你需要推销一个机会。

The market doesn't want to be sold to, they want to buy.

市场不想被卖，他们想买。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most founders would rather get 10, 10K deals than lose nine and get one 100K deal.

Lenny Rachitsky：大多数创始人宁愿获得 10 笔、1 万笔交易，也不愿失去 9 笔交易并获得一笔 10 万笔交易。

Jen Abel: In the very early days, people will discount till the cows come home because they think that's the way to get a deal done.

Jen Abel：在很早的时候，人们会打折直到牛回家，因为他们认为这是完成交易的方式。

The best clients are not going to do that to you.

最好的客户不会那样对你。

If they're sitting there nickel-and-diming you, they're not fully bought in on what you're selling them.

如果他们坐在那里对你进行小打小闹，那么他们并没有完全接受你向他们推销的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: It might be giving you a false sense of success and product market fit.

Lenny Rachitsky：这可能会给你一种成功和产品市场契合度的错误感觉。

Jen Abel: As soon as you become a comparison, as soon as you become one of three that they're testing out, you've already sort of lost.

Jen Abel：一旦你成为比较对象，一旦你成为他们正在测试的三个人之一，你就已经有点迷失了。

It's all about differentiation.

这都是关于差异化的。

Here's what you will be able to do tomorrow because of how we're going to serve you today.

由于我们今天将如何为您提供服务，因此您明天可以执行以下操作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something else that you talk about is that enterprise sales is very creative.

Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到的另一件事是企业销售非常有创意。

Jen Abel: It's more of an art.

Jen Abel：这更像是一门艺术。

It's all about deal crafting.

这都是关于交易的制定。

It is a relationship you're building with someone.

这是您与某人建立的关系。

If they know they can call on you, people will turn over rocks for you.

如果他们知道可以拜访你，人们就会为你翻石头。

I have a client at a Fortune 10 company where I was like, "It's so important we get the deal done this year.

我有一位财富 10 强公司的客户，我当时想：“我们今年完成交易非常重要。

Is that possible?" And she's like, "It's a tall order, but if it's going to help you, let's do it." These are how enterprise deals gets done.

这可能吗？”她说：“这是一项艰巨的任务，但如果它能帮助你，那就去做吧。”这就是企业交易的完成方式。

It's relationships.

这是关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's kind of like the state of the art on go-to-market outbound tooling?

Lenny Rachitsky：上市出站工具的最新技术是什么样的？

Jen Abel: I don't use a tool.

Jen Abel：我不使用工具。

The thing about AI tools is they're all pulling from the same databases.

人工智能工具的特点是它们都来自同一个数据库。

I want to email someone not in the database that's getting hit by a million folks.

我想给不在数据库中但被一百万人点击的人发电子邮件。

I want to take a back door in, not the front door where everyone else is trick or treating.

我想从后门进去，而不是从前门进去，那里其他人都在玩“不给糖就捣蛋”的游戏。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jen Abel, co-founder of JJELLYFISH where she and her team help early stage founders learn how to sell and now GM of Enterprise at State Affairs.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是 JJELLYFISH 的联合创始人 Jen Abel，她和她的团队帮助早期创始人学习如何销售，现任国务部企业部总经理。

If you want to become better at selling your product, this episode is going to blow your mind and make you so much better in every way.

如果你想更好地销售你的产品，这一集会让你大吃一惊，让你在各方面都变得更好。

This is the second time Jen's been on the podcast.

这是珍第二次参加播客。

Our first conversation was focused around getting from zero to 1 million ARR, essentially founder led sales.

我们的第一次谈话重点是如何将 ARR 从 0 提高到 100 万，本质上是创始人主导的销售。

Lenny Rachitsky: This conversation is part two going from around one million in ARR to around 10 million.

Lenny Rachitsky：本次对话是第二部分，ARR 从大约 100 万增加到大约 1000 万。

This is the most tactical and in the weeds discussion you will find anywhere for free on how to actually become more effective at selling to enterprises.

这是最具战术性的，在杂草讨论中，您可以在任何地方免费找到有关如何真正更有效地向企业销售的内容。

I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation.

我很高兴你能听到这次谈话。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and followed in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it helps tremendously.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅和关注，这会很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 17 incredible products for free for an entire year, including Devin, Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD and Mobbin.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以全年免费获得 17 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Devin、Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。

Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.

前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击 Product Pass。

With that, I bring you Jen Abel after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了珍·阿贝尔 (Jen Abel)。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here's a puzzle for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是给你的一个谜题。

What do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Platt, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common?

OpenAI、Cursor、Perplexity、Vercel、Platt 以及其他数百家获奖公司有什么共同点？

The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS.

答案是它们全部由当今的赞助商 WorkOS 提供支持。

If you're building software for enterprises, you've probably felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SKIM, RBAC, audit logs and other features required by big customers.

如果您正在为企业构建软件，您可能已经感受到集成单点登录、SKIM、RBAC、审核日志和大客户所需的其他功能的痛苦。

WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS.

WorkOS 通过专为 B2B SaaS 构建的现代开发者平台将这些交易阻碍因素转变为嵌入式 API。

Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you're a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unlocking growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：无论您是一家试图吸引第一个企业客户的种子期初创公司，还是一家在全球范围内扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是实现企业就绪并释放增长的最快途径。

They're essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

它们本质上是用于企业功能的 Stripe。

Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack support where they have real engineers in there who answer your questions superfast.

请访问 workos.com 开始使用，或者直接联系他们的 Slack 支持，他们有真正的工程师，可以超快地回答您的问题。

WorkOS allows you to build like the best with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.

WorkOS 允许您通过令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发人员体验进行最佳构建。

Go to Workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

立即访问 Workos.com 让您的应用程序企业做好准备。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Lovable.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Lovable 为您带来。

Not only are they the fastest growing company in history, I use it regularly and I could not recommend it more highly.

他们不仅是历史上发展最快的公司，而且我经常使用它，我强烈推荐它。

If you've ever had an idea for an app, but didn't know where to start, Lovable is for you.

如果您曾经对应用程序有过想法，但不知道从哪里开始，那么 Lovable 适合您。

Lovable lets you build working apps and websites by simply chatting with AI.

Lovable 让您只需与 AI 聊天即可构建可用的应用程序和网站。

Then you can customize it at automations and deploy it to live domain.

然后，您可以在自动化中对其进行自定义并将其部署到实时域。

It's perfect for marketers, spinning up tools, product managers, prototyping new ideas and founders launching their next business.

它非常适合营销人员、开发工具、产品经理、制作新想法原型以及启动下一项业务的创始人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Unlike no-code tools, Lovable isn't about static pages.

Lenny Rachitsky：与无代码工具不同，Lovable 与静态页面无关。

It builds full apps with real functionality and it's fast.

它构建具有实际功能的完整应用程序，而且速度很快。

What used to take weeks, months, or years, you can now do over a weekend.

过去需要数周、数月或数年才能完成的事情，现在只需一个周末即可完成。

So if you've been sitting on an idea, now is the time to bring it to life.

因此，如果您一直有一个想法，那么现在就是将其变为现实的时候了。

Get started for free at lovable.dev, that's lovable.dev.

从 lovable.dev 免费开始，这就是 lovable.dev。

Jen, thank you so much for being here, welcome to the podcast

Jen，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客

Jen Abel: Lenny, it's starting to feel familiar and I like it.

Jen Abel：Lenny，我开始感觉很熟悉，我喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I should have said welcome back to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我应该说欢迎回到播客。

So I actually shared on Twitter that you're coming back and I had so many people ask so many questions.

所以我实际上在推特上分享了你要回来的消息，很多人问了很多问题。

Clearly, there is a lot of confusion and a lot of need for learning how to get better at the stuff, we're going to talk about sales, enterprise sales to frame the discussion, our first chat, which we're going to point people to if they want to start there, we focused on founder-led sales, which is essentially the beginning phases of a startup, kind of going from zero to about 100 million ARR.

显然，存在很多困惑，并且非常需要学习如何在这方面做得更好，我们将讨论销售、企业销售来构建讨论，我们的第一次聊天，如果人们想从那里开始，我们将向他们指出，我们专注于创始人主导的销售，这本质上是初创公司的开始阶段，从零到大约 1 亿 ARR。

Lenny Rachitsky: This discussion is on the next phase, which is going from about a million ARR to about 10 million ARR in enterprise sales, not like PLG or anything like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个讨论是在下一阶段，企业销售额将从大约 100 万 ARR 到大约 1000 万 ARR，而不是像 PLG 或类似的东西。

You have a bunch of really strong and counter intuitive opinions and piece of advice on how to be successful at this.

对于如何在这方面取得成功，您有很多非常强烈且反直觉的意见和建议。

So I'm just going to go through a bunch of these things.

所以我将要经历一些这样的事情。

We'll see where it goes.

我们会看看它会去哪里。

Before we get into the first one, is there anything broadly, I don't know, is there anything broadly you want to share?

在我们进入第一个之前，我不知道有什么广泛的内容，您有什么想要分享的吗？

Anything you want to say before we dive in?

在我们深入之前你有什么想说的吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Okay, so the first thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about before is this point that you often make that the mid-market does not exist.

好吧，我以前没有听到任何人谈论过的第一件事是，你经常说中端市场不存在。

People often hear about enterprise companies.

人们经常听说企业公司。

There's obviously SMBs and startups.

显然有中小企业和初创公司。

There's also people just, "Oh, I'm going to go after the mid-market." Somewhere between.

也有人只是说，“哦，我要瞄准中端市场。”介于两者之间。

You don't think that's real?

你不认为那是真的吗？

Talk about your experience there, what people should know.

谈谈你在那里的经历，人们应该知道什么。

Jen Abel: It's fascinating because if you ask someone to describe the mid-market, actually, if you ask someone to describe the enterprise, every single person has a different answer.

Jen Abel：这很有趣，因为如果你让某人描述中端市场，实际上，如果你让某人描述企业，每个人都会有不同的答案。

It's either based off of revenue, it's either based off of market cap, it's based off of employee size, and I think a lot of people can get lost because selling to a hundred person organization is a radically different game than selling to a thousand person organization and there's no hybrid approach.

它要么基于收入，要么基于市值，要么基于员工规模，我认为很多人可能会迷失，因为向一百人组织销售与向千人组织销售是完全不同的游戏，并且没有混合方法。

Jen Abel: So the best way to think about it is you have small business which typically can be really powered by marketing, and then you have enterprise, which is typically going to be sales led.

Jen Abel：所以最好的思考方式是，你有小型企业，通常可以真正由营销驱动，然后你有企业，通常由销售主导。

If you bucket them into these two very specific silos, it makes it much, much easier to understand what game you're playing.

如果你将它们放入这两个非常具体的孤岛中，它会让你更容易理解你正在玩什么游戏。

Now, when we talk about mid-market, I usually will say, "Are we talking about the upper end of small business or are we talking about the lower end of enterprise?"

现在，当我们谈论中端市场时，我通常会说：“我们是在谈论小型企业的高端还是企业的低端？”

Jen Abel: And most people are usually saying the lower end of enterprise.

Jen Abel：大多数人通常说的是企业的低端。

And I say, "Great, know you're playing the enterprise game.

我说：“太好了，知道你正在玩企业游戏。

Know the type of people you need to hire, the type of ACV they need because it makes it a lot easier than trying to have this middle ground that catches everything that doesn't distinctly define SMB and enterprise." So I say the mid-market doesn't exist because what is a mid-market hire?

了解您需要雇用的人员类型，他们需要的 ACV 类型，因为这比试图找到一个涵盖所有未明确定义中小企业和企业的中间立场要容易得多。”所以我说中端市场不存在，因为什么是中端市场招聘？

It's either low end enterprise or upper end SMB, and if you bleed those two games you're going to lose.

它要么是低端企业，要么是高端中小型企业，如果你在这两场比赛中失利，你就会输掉比赛。

They're so distinctly different.

他们是如此明显不同。

So that's kind of my theory on it.

这就是我的理论。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have this chart that you shared with me that will link people to where you kind of show the number of companies within each of these segments and there's basically nobody in this kind of middle segment, talk about that a bit.

Lenny Rachitsky：您与我分享了这张图表，它将人们链接到您显示每个细分市场中的公司数量的地方，并且基本上没有人处于这种中间细分市场，请谈谈这一点。

Jen Abel: That's right, and just like the power laws, if you look at the Fortune 1,000 and then the lower end enterprise from there, it trails off so fast.

Jen Abel：是的，就像幂律一样，如果你看看财富 1,000 强，然后再看看低端企业，你会发现它的衰退速度非常快。

Power laws totally exist in these large corporations and we can't be treating everyone the same.

幂律完全存在于这些大公司中，我们不能对每个人都一视同仁。

Lenny Rachitsky: This begs the question, where do you suggest companies start?

Lenny Rachitsky：这就引出了一个问题，您建议公司从哪里开始？

There's obviously startups classically are just like innovators, move fast, can make quick decisions, enterprises have all the money.

显然，传统意义上的初创公司就像创新者一样，行动迅速，可以快速做出决策，企业拥有所有资金。

Usually the advice I hear is just don't go after the fancy companies to start because they take a long time.

通常我听到的建议是不要追随那些高档公司来启动，因为它们需要很长时间。

You don't want to screw it up.

你不想把事情搞砸。

What's your advice on where to start for most companies?

您对大多数公司从哪里开始有什么建议？

Jen Abel: The exact opposite.

Jen Abel：恰恰相反。

Early adopters are those logos because they have to continue to stay at the number one spot.

早期采用者就是这些标志，因为它们必须继续保持第一的位置。

So they'll take tons of swings to continue to stay in the ...

因此，他们将采取大量的行动才能继续留在......

Staying in the number one spot is the hardest part.

保持第一的位置是最困难的部分。

So those number one logos are like if you can give me just a slight bit of alpha, just a tiny bit, that's where I get promoted, that's where I get the pat on the back because we are the world's leader in our industry and we cannot be disrupted there.

所以那些排名第一的标志就像如果你能给我一点点阿尔法，一点点，那就是我得到晋升的地方，这就是我得到认可的地方，因为我们是我们行业的世界领导者，我们不能在那里被颠覆。

Jen Abel: So there's this running joke where not a running joke, there's this running statement where a lot of VCs will say, "Don't go after tier one logos, go learn down market." Or, "o learn from logos that don't necessarily carry a lot of weight." The ones that carry all the weight are the ones that are willing to take a shot and want to help, right?

Jen Abel：所以有一个流行的笑话，但不是一个流行的笑话，有一个流行的声明，很多风险投资家会说，“不要追求一级标志，去学习下游市场。”或者，“从不一定有很大分量的徽标中学习。”那些承担全部责任的人是那些愿意尝试并想要提供帮助的人，对吧？

Because they also want to be, they also want to be able to dictate the roadmap.

因为他们也想成为这样的人，他们也希望能够决定路线图。

Jen Abel: Now it's the founder's job to decide what can be done and what shouldn't be done, but their voice takes you a $100,000 deal into a million dollar deal in a very short period of time.

Jen Abel：现在创始人的工作就是决定什么可以做、什么不应该做，但他们的声音会让你在很短的时间内将 10 万美元的交易变成 100 万美元的交易。

It will literally guide you there.

它会真正引导您到达那里。

So when someone says, "Hey, go after startups, such as short sales cycle." Yeah, that makes sense.

因此，当有人说：“嘿，追求初创公司，比如销售周期短的公司。”是的，这是有道理的。

I totally get that.

我完全明白。

It's very easy to define the decision maker.

定义决策者非常容易。

Jen Abel: It's very easy, you don't have to go through procurement, but in the age of AI where it's all about sucking the oxygen out of the room and winning the deal and getting your foot in the door as quickly as humanly possible before someone else tries to take that, you want to get to the enterprise as fast as humanly possible.

Jen Abel：这很简单，你不必进行采购，但在人工智能时代，一切都是为了吸出房间里的氧气并赢得交易，并在其他人试图抢先之前尽快迈入大门，你希望以尽可能快的速度进入企业。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just so folks understand what we're talking about here, when you say tier one, what's a good way to think about what tier one is?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让人们理解我们在这里谈论的内容，当您说第一层时，思考第一层是什么的好方法是什么？

Jen Abel: Tier one is like your Walmarts, your McDonald's, your NVIDIAs, your Tesla, your ExxonMobil, your UnitedHealthcare, the logos that are the leader in their space, their job is to stay in the number one spot.

Jen Abel：第一层就像你的沃尔玛、你的麦当劳、你的 NVIDIA、你的特斯拉、你的埃克森美孚、你的联合医疗保健，这些标志是他们领域的领导者，他们的工作就是保持第一的位置。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Your advice is because this is very counterintuitive.

你的建议是因为这是非常违反直觉的。

This is exactly what you're here not to do.

这正是你来这里不该做的事。

Your advice is go after the Chevrons and the Mobils and the Walmarts as a startup.

你的建议是，作为一家初创公司，追随雪佛龙、美孚和沃尔玛。

Jen Abel: Because if you can get them, that's all the proof you need.

Jen Abel：因为如果你能拿到它们，那就是你所需要的全部证据。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you approach finding someone?

Lenny Rachitsky：你如何寻找某人？

Let's just get tactical there.

让我们谈谈战术吧。

Just like say you're going after Walmart.

就像说你要追随沃尔玛一样。

I know this is not a five-second answer, but just how would someone approach finding someone at Walmart to sell to?

我知道这不是一个五秒钟的答案，但人们会如何在沃尔玛找到可以销售的人？

Jen Abel: First of all, make sure the founder is involved, right?

Jen Abel：首先，确保创始人参与其中，对吧？

Everyone loves talking to a founder, so we'll start with let's get the founder involved as fast as human possible.

每个人都喜欢与创始人交谈，所以我们首先让创始人尽快参与进来。

The second is you need to vision cast, you need to sell to a gap, don't sell to a problem.

第二个是你需要愿景，你需要卖给一个缺口，而不是卖给一个问题。

There's a very big difference between problem selling and gap selling.

问题销售和缺口销售之间存在很大差异。

Problem selling is highly specific, more technical than not, and it's the way that every salesperson is going to go about it, find the problem and anchor to it.

问题销售是非常具体的，比没有技术性更强，这是每个销售人员处理问题、发现问题并解决问题的方式。

Jen Abel: When you're selling to a leader, you need to be vision casting and you need to be selling an opportunity which is they are here, here's where we can take you.

Jen Abel：当你向领导者推销产品时，你需要进行愿景铸造，你需要推销一个机会，他们就在这里，这就是我们可以带你去的地方。

You know that image where it's like Mario or Mario, and then there's the mushroom and then there's Mario on blast, and everyone is like, "Don't sell the mushroom, sell Mario on blast." Well, that's exactly what it's saying.

你知道那个图像就像马里奥或马里奥，然后是蘑菇，然后是爆炸的马里奥，每个人都会说，“不要卖蘑菇，卖爆炸的马里奥。”嗯，这正是它所说的。

Jen Abel: It's about selling the opportunity.

Jen Abel：这是关于出售机会。

That's what gets the tier one logos excited and that is the best thing for a founder to sell, selling the vision versus the problem, and also it's what gets them to want to take a swing.

这就是让一级标志兴奋的原因，也是创始人推销的最好的东西，推销愿景与问题，这也是让他们想要采取行动的原因。

Who wants to take a swing because you can do some small problem?

谁愿意因为可以解决一些小问题而去挥杆？

They're not going to go to bath for that.

他们不会为此去洗澡。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's an example of a vision cast in a company you've worked with just to make this real?

Lenny Rachitsky：您曾合作过的公司为了实现这一目标而制定的愿景有哪些例子？

What does it look like when you've done a great job?

当你完成出色的工作时，会是什么样子？

Jen Abel: We have an ability to deliver alpha, meaning, we have information, we have data, we have a way of working that no one else can do or is going to unlock a new way of thinking for you or an ability to deliver to a customer or an ability to solve a problem.

Jen Abel：我们有能力交付阿尔法，意思是，我们有信息，我们有数据，我们有一种其他人无法做到的工作方式，也不会为您开启一种新的思维方式，或者有能力向客户交付或有能力解决问题。

Right now, you have an ability to access this level of information.

现在，您有能力访问此级别的信息。

I have an opportunity through our resources or through this gated data, we have access to get you much further upstream so that you can get information faster sooner.

我有机会通过我们的资源或通过这些门控数据，我们可以让您更深入地上游，以便您可以更快地更快地获取信息。

It's kind of like the high-frequency trading that one second, that one second.

这有点像高频交易的那一秒，那一秒。

They didn't do much.

他们并没有做太多事情。

They didn't sell, "Oh, we're doing fiber cable connectivity.

他们没有推销，“哦，我们正在做光纤电缆连接。

We're giving you one second of alpha before everyone else." It's more of that ability and that's not problem-selling, that's opportunity selling.

我们先给你一秒钟的阿尔法时间。”更多的是这种能力，这不是问题销售，而是机会销售。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like this phrasing of just giving them alpha, that's such a simple way to imagine what this should feel like.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种只给他们阿尔法的措辞，这是一种简单的方式来想象这应该是什么样的感觉。

We'll link to that image you're talking about with the Mario and-

我们将链接到您正在谈论的马里奥图片，并且-

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, the person that made that image originally is Kathy Sierra, if you remember her, do you remember?

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，最初制作该图像的人是 Kathy Sierra，如果你还记得她，你还记得吗？

So there's this person, Kathy Sierra, she's from back in the day.

这个人就是凯西·塞拉（Kathy Sierra），她来自过去。

This was a big, I don't know, lesson she taught is you want to not sell your people on a feature or a product.

这是她教给我的一个重要教训，我不知道，你不想向你的员工推销一项功能或产品。

You want to sell them on them becoming a superhero.

你想把他们卖给成为超级英雄。

Lenny Rachitsky: They are now a superhero because of the thing you've built for them.

Lenny Rachitsky：由于您为他们打造的东西，他们现在成为了超级英雄。

And so the vision here is here's how you become a superhero.

所以这里的愿景是如何成为超级英雄。

Here's how this alpha will help you become more successful.

以下是这个阿尔法将如何帮助您变得更加成功。

Jen Abel: And that's why founders are so good at selling because they naturally go to vision selling and vision casting versus a typical trained salesperson is find the problem, ask these questions and it just kills the vibe.

Jen Abel：这就是为什么创始人如此擅长销售，因为他们自然而然地进行愿景销售和愿景铸造，而典型的训练有素的销售人员则发现问题，提出这些问题，这只会破坏氛围。

It just feels like you're talking to a salesperson, right?

感觉就像您正在与销售人员交谈，对吧？

Jen Abel: It's like, "What's your script?

Jen Abel：就像，“你的剧本是什么？

And it's like that's not vision selling, that's like playbook selling." And in the age of AI where a lot of it is Alpha, it's about speed, it's about getting access to information, it's about training data, and look at how the market is reacting to it.

这似乎不是愿景销售，而是剧本销售。”在人工智能时代，很多都是阿尔法，它与速度有关，与获取信息有关，与训练数据有关，并关注市场对此的反应。

It's all opportunity and it's all about the alpha.

这都是机会，都是关于阿尔法的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So just to make this more concrete for people, Sam, like sales person at Cursor, what would be an example of vision casting?

Lenny Rachitsky：Sam，为了让人们更具体地了解这一点，比如 Cursor 的销售人员，愿景投射的例子是什么？

The obvious idea there is your team will be more productive, you'll get more done faster than everybody else.

显而易见的想法是，您的团队将更加高效，您将比其他人更快地完成更多工作。

Is that a big enough vision to cast?

这个愿景足够大吗？

Jen Abel: I think it may be more of you'll be able to actually hire the 10X engineers that you don't necessarily have access to because they want to be able to use this type of tool.

Jen Abel：我认为你们中的更多人可能能够真正雇用您不一定能够接触到的 10X 工程师，因为他们希望能够使用这种类型的工具。

It's about letting them get differentiated talent or that's probably more of what I would anchor to of this is the 10X engineers use cursor.

这是为了让他们获得差异化的人才，或者这可能是我更关注的一点，那就是 10X 工程师使用光标。

You don't, do you want access to 10X engineers?

不，你想接触 10X 工程师吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: They won't even join your company if you're not using Cursor.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您不使用 Cursor，他们甚至不会加入您的公司。

Jen Abel: Yeah, yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的，是的。

Think about it.

想一想。

So many people are so specific about what they're able to, I think especially technical folks, I'm not a technical person, but I would imagine that they're not going to go to, they don't like to go to these corporations because they're forced to use some incumbent tools.

很多人都对自己的能力非常具体，我认为特别是技术人员，我不是技术人员，但我想他们不会去，他们不喜欢去这些公司，因为他们被迫使用一些现有的工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Going back to going after these larger companies, I asked your colleague, Justin, what he sees you do that most impacts the success that teams have with their sales process.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到追随这些大公司，我问你的同事贾斯汀，他认为你所做的事情对团队在销售流程中取得的成功影响最大。

And there's a bunch of I'm going to touch on, but one is most founders are insecure about asking for large ACVs for charging, or the way he put it is most founders would rather get 10 10K deals than lose nine and get one 100K deal.

我要谈的还有很多，但其中之一是，大多数创始人对于要求大型 ACV 进行充电都没有安全感，或者用他的话说，大多数创始人宁愿获得 10 笔 10K 交易，也不愿失去 9 笔 100K 交易。

Talk about your advice there and what you see.

谈谈你的建议和你的所见。

Jen Abel: There are in the very early days is people will discount till the cows come home because they think that's the way to get a deal done.

Jen Abel：在很早的时候，人们会打折，直到牛回家，因为他们认为这是完成交易的方式。

The best clients are not going to do that to you because that's like a qualification criteria, which is like if they're sitting there nickel-and-diming you being like, "No, I don't believe it's worth this.

最好的客户不会对你这样做，因为这就像一个资格标准，就像如果他们坐在那儿对你说：“不，我不认为这是值得的。

I don't believe it's worth that." They're not fully bought in on what you're selling them.

我不相信这是值得的。”他们并没有完全接受你所销售的产品。

Jen Abel: So when I say I'd rather get $100,000 deal than $10,000 deals, I'd rather have one rock star client that's going to help me figure out the next stage of where this is going than 10 or maybe five that are a good fit, five that are not, and I still have to serve those five that are not a good fit, and that's going to distract me.

Jen Abel：所以当我说我宁愿获得 100,000 美元的交易而不是 10,000 美元的交易时，我宁愿有一个摇滚明星客户来帮助我弄清楚下一阶段的发展方向，而不是 10 个或 5 个合适的客户，五个不合适的客户，而我仍然必须为那五个不合适的客户提供服务，这会让我分心。

So this is why I love enterprise sales is they're not going to do the hard work of bringing you in if it's not critical or if it's not, when I say critical, it's going to impact them in a way that they're going to make it successful, that's what I love about enterprise sales.

这就是我喜欢企业销售的原因，因为如果它不重要，他们就不会做艰苦的工作来吸引你，或者如果它不重要，当我说重要时，它将以某种方式影响他们，使他们取得成功，这就是我喜欢企业销售的原因。

Jen Abel: They have the resources to ensure that it gets implemented because most in today's day and age, if people are not using the tool, you just get rid of the tool.

Jen Abel：他们拥有资源来确保它得到实施，因为在当今时代，如果人们不使用该工具，您只需摆脱该工具即可。

So they're going to want to make sure whatever they bring in, what they go to bat for, remember, they go to bat once every two years, maybe once every three years.

所以他们要确保他们带来的是什么，他们去击球的目的是什么，记住，他们每两年击球一次，也许每三年一次。

You've got to make it feel incredible.

你必须让它感觉难以置信。

You've got to make it feel like they're going to be a superhero going back to it.

你必须让他们感觉他们会成为超级英雄回到过去。

Jen Abel: Otherwise, what's the point?

Jen Abel：否则，还有什么意义呢？

Because the way enterprises are structured is it is designed today to make it hard to buy because they want to make sure whatever you're bringing in, you really, really want it gets rid of the mediocre.

因为现在企业的结构方式是为了让人们难以购买，因为他们希望确保无论你引进什么，你真的真的希望它摆脱平庸。

I think this would be good and it gets to this is going to change the way we work.

我认为这很好，这将改变我们的工作方式。

It's going to impact our ability to capture some form of alpha, however you want to define that for them and it's sticky because of that.

它将影响我们捕捉某种形式的阿尔法的能力，但是你想为他们定义它，因此它是粘性的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So your advice here broadly is don't pay attention to the smaller 10K-ish kind of opportunities for a bunch of reasons.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，您的建议是，出于多种原因，不要关注规模较小的 10K 左右的机会。

One is it might be giving you a false sense of success in product market fit.

一是它可能会给您一种产品市场契合度成功的错误感觉。

Two, those companies are maybe not as innovative and won't lead you in the right direction.

第二，这些公司可能没有那么创新，不会引导你走向正确的方向。

Three are probably discounts just like your product than your pricing just gets thrown off.

三个可能是折扣，就像你的产品一样，而不是你的定价被抛弃。

Jen Abel: Yep, and also you don't really get taken seriously for 10K.

Jen Abel：是的，而且你并没有因为 10K 的收入而真正受到重视。

You get way more taken seriously for a 100Ks, it's much harder to get a 100K deal done and an executive use needs to be involved.

对于 10 万美元，你会得到更多的重视，完成 10 万美元的交易要困难得多，并且需要执行人员的参与。

I'd much rather have an executive sign-off on something and spend two more months getting the deal done because you know that they are bought in, you can now ensure what kind of value do they want to unlock and maybe you have an opportunity to turn them into a user, which to me, in today's day and age, with our generation being the ones that are now the executives at these corporations, this is native to them.

我更愿意让高管签署某件事，然后再花两个月完成交易，因为你知道他们被收购了，你现在可以确保他们想要释放什么样的价值，也许你有机会将他们变成用户，对我来说，在当今时代，我们这一代人现在是这些公司的高管，这是他们的本能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Who is this true for?

Lenny Rachitsky：这对谁来说是正确的？

Is the advice here basically, if you're trying to build a successful B2B company, everybody should be aiming towards these a 100K sort of deals?

这里的建议基本上是，如果您想建立一家成功的 B2B 公司，每个人都应该以 10 万笔交易为目标吗？

Is there a world where you can be successful with 10Ks for a long time?

有没有一个世界可以让你长期获得 10K 的成功？

Jen Abel: If you have a super high win rate in a massive market, because all you have to do is reverse engineer the math.

Jen Abel：如果你在一个巨大的市场中拥有超高的获胜率，因为你所要做的就是对数学进行逆向工程。

If you need to generate a hundred million dollars in revenue, how many 10K deals do you need?

如果您需要产生一亿美元的收入，您需要多少笔一万笔交易？

And the expansion on a 10K deal is in parallel to that.

10K 交易的扩张与此并行。

Where can you go?

你能去哪里？

10 to 15?

10到15？

That's a 50% growth, much easier to go to a 100K to 500K because they want more bodies or they want more value out of you.

这是 50% 的增长，更容易达到 10 万到 50 万，因为他们想要更多的身体或者他们想要从你身上获得更多价值。

Jen Abel: For an enterprise, they'd love to get more out of an existing customer.

Jen Abel：对于企业来说，他们希望从现有客户那里获得更多收益。

You're already trusted.

你已经被信任了。

So it's also about the type of company you are.

所以这也与你所在的公司类型有关。

If you're venture-backed, you can't be selling $10,000 deals to the enterprise, you'll get killed, or you've already lost the game because you're playing a small business game in the wrong sector.

如果你有风险投资支持，你就无法向企业出售 10,000 美元的交易，你会被杀死，或者你已经输掉了游戏，因为你在错误的领域玩小型商业游戏。

Lenny Rachitsky: Have you seen startups you've worked with succeed in that 10K, 20K bucket or is it really, really rare?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否见过与您合作过的初创公司在 10K、20K 方面取得成功，或者说这种情况真的非常罕见？

Jen Abel: If they're going after the enterprise?

Jen Abel：如果他们要追捕企业？

Jen Abel: Yes, if it's the first three months and then after three months, it turns into a 50K and then a 100K and it ramps up quickly.

Jen Abel：是的，如果是前三个月，然后三个月后，它会变成 5 万，然后是 10 万，并且会迅速增加。

Sure, that makes sense.

当然，这是有道理的。

You got your foot in the door and you can expand it exponentially in a healthy manner.

你已经踏入了大门，并且可以以健康的方式呈指数级扩展。

I think that that's fine.

我认为那很好。

$10,000 a year, then going to 12, then going to 15, the math will break.

每年 10,000 美元，然后到 12，然后到 15，数学就会崩溃。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。

I feel like most founders to this are like, "No, no, we're kind of in that exception we'll be all right.

我觉得大多数创始人对此都会说，“不，不，我们有点例外，我们会没事的。

10K, we'll do 20K.

10K，我们就做20K。

That's crazy to consider 100K."

考虑 10 万就太疯狂了。”

Jen Abel: Yeah, the math will break.

Jen Abel：是的，数学会崩溃。

And also, a really good salesperson, you're commissioned on a 10K deal, they're not going to get a great salesperson.

而且，一个非常优秀的销售人员，如果你被委托完成一笔 10K 的交易，他们不会找到一个优秀的销售人员。

They're going to want to be anchored to how can I sell a $250,000 deal?

他们会想知道如何才能卖出 250,000 美元的交易？

How can I sell a half a million dollar deal?

我怎样才能卖出50万美元的交易？

That's the type of person you want.

这就是你想要的人类型。

Lenny Rachitsky: And a big part of this is this is a good lens to force you to build the product that you can sell for 100K, 500K.

Lenny Rachitsky：其中很大一部分是这是一个很好的镜头，迫使你制造出可以卖​​ 10 万、50 万美元的产品。

Jen Abel: Yeah, absolutely.

珍·阿贝尔：是的，绝对是。

And again, this is about playing that enterprise game.

再说一次，这就是玩企业游戏。

If you're trying to sell, if you're a small business, if you're in the small business place and an enterprise company comes to you and is like, "I like this." Ensure that you structure it for an enterprise.

如果您想出售产品，如果您是一家小型企业，如果您在小型企业场所，并且一家企业公司会来找您，并且会说：“我喜欢这个。”确保您为企业构建它。

Don't play the small business team with an enterprise company.

不要让小型企业团队与大型企业一起玩。

Lenny Rachitsky: Talk more about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：更多地讨论这个问题。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Jen Abel: Let's say you're PLG, and a big company like Walmart comes to and is like, "Hey, can we get access for three of our users?" And they're like, "This is so exciting." And then they sell them the small business pricing for three users to Walmart.

Jen Abel：假设您是 PLG，像沃尔玛这样的大公司来了，然后说道：“嘿，我们可以为我们的三个用户获取访问权限吗？”他们说，“这太令人兴奋了。”然后他们将三个用户的小企业定价卖给沃尔玛。

Very, very hard now to go from those three users that you just priced them at in a small business way, turn that into 100K because now it's documented what they're actually paying for this.

现在非常非常难从你刚刚以小企业方式定价的那三个用户那里将其变成 100K，因为现在它记录了他们实际为此支付的费用。

Jen Abel: So you're stuck.

Jen Abel：所以你被困住了。

You've kind of anchored yourself to this price.

你已经把自己固定在这个价格上了。

Not to mention how are you going to unlock the executive high level value so that you can get that senior executive to buy in and stamp this as well.

更不用说你将如何释放高管的高层价值，以便你可以让那位高管也认同并盖章。

Otherwise, it's just going to be throwing it on the credit card.

不然的话，就直接打到信用卡上了。

But again, you've just ruined your enterprise game because you're anchoring to a small business price.

但同样，你刚刚毁了你的企业游戏，因为你锚定了小企业价格。

Jen Abel: So this is why when you bleed these two games, it's very, very, very dangerous because these are really smart companies.

Jen Abel：这就是为什么当你在这两款游戏中流血时，这是非常、非常、非常危险的，因为这些都是非常聪明的公司。

They're going to say, "Well, wait a second, I just paid $9,000 last year and now you want to charge me $90,000.

他们会说：“好吧，等一下，我去年刚付了 9,000 美元，现在你想向我收取 90,000 美元。

Well, what's the step change in value?

那么，价值的阶跃变化是多少？

What's the 10X value I'm now getting?" That's super hard to prove.

我现在得到的 10 倍价值是多少？”这非常难以证明。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the tip here is your initial price will really screw you if you get it wrong.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的提示是，如果你弄错了，你的初始价格真的会毁了你。

And so obviously we're not going to give people the answer on their pricing strategy fully, but just is the advice just charged more or what would you recommend?

显然，我们不会向人们提供有关其定价策略的完整答案，但只是建议收费更高还是您会推荐什么？

Jen Abel: It is enterprise companies are very used to a land, when I say the first initial contract, somewhat between 75K and 150K, very used to that.

Jen Abel：企业公司非常习惯土地，当我说第一个初始合同时，价格在 75K 到 150K 之间，非常习惯。

In fact, that's probably where you want to start because you also want to understand where can you grow from this.

事实上，这可能就是您想要开始的地方，因为您还想了解您可以从中获得哪些成长。

Start contained, don't say 150K and sell the farm.

开始遏制，不要说15万然后卖掉农场。

Say, "It's 150K, here's who gets access, here's the value we're going to deliver and here's where we're going over time." You also want them to know, "Here's what we plan to do roughly in year two, year three."

说：“这是 15 万，这是谁可以访问，这是我们要提供的价值，这是我们随着时间的推移要达到的目标。”你还想让他们知道，“这是我们计划在第二年、第三年大致做的事情。”

Jen Abel: I know it's hard to look that far out, but plant the seed with them in terms of where this is going.

Jen Abel：我知道很难看得那么远，但请与他们一起播下种子，了解事情的发展方向。

If you come in at $10,000, even if they want to bring you in and want to spend 100K with you, they have to be able to defend that and now they see a $10,000, it can get really messy, especially because a lot of them are using AI now to understand contracts.

如果你以 10,000 美元的价格进来，即使他们想引进你并想和你一起花 10 万美元，他们也必须能够捍卫这一点，现在他们看到 10,000 美元，这可能会变得非常混乱，特别是因为他们中的很多人现在都在使用人工智能来理解合同。

So they're going to quickly say, "Oh wait, you spent a thousand dollars with Lenny and now Lenny is asking you for a 100K.

所以他们很快就会说：“哦等等，你和莱尼花了 1000 美元，现在莱尼向你要 10 万美元。

Great.

太棒了。

Just help me understand why or defend it."

请帮助我理解原因或捍卫它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I could totally see ChatGPT being like, "This is interesting."

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全可以看到 ChatGPT 会说，“这很有趣。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It used to be 1K, now it's a 100K.

Lenny Rachitsky：以前是 1K，现在是 100K。

What might be going on here?

这里可能发生了什么？

Jen Abel: Totally.

珍·阿贝尔：完全可以。

The people don't realize how, again, know the game you're playing and don't be sloppy about it.

人们没有意识到如何再次了解你正在玩的游戏并且不要马虎。

Lenny Rachitsky: So your advice here is really interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你的建议非常有趣。

There's the land to expand.

那里有土地可以扩张。

Expand is very important, but the landing may screw your expanding because it sets the wrong reference point.

扩展非常重要，但是着陆可能会破坏您的扩展，因为它设置了错误的参考点。

Jen Abel: 1,000%.

珍·阿贝尔：1,000%。

That's exactly right.

完全正确。

You said it better than I did.

你说的比我说的好。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so you may see in theory if you land a 10K go to 100K, that's an amazing NRR, everyone's going to be really impressed.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以理论上你可能会看到，如果你从 10K 达到 100K，那是一个惊人的 NRR，每个人都会印象深刻。

But you're saying people won't buy into that.

但你是说人们不会相信这一点。

It's going to feel absurd and wrong.

这会让人感觉荒谬和错误。

Jen Abel: Unless it's defendable.

Jen Abel：除非它是可以辩护的。

All it needs to be is defendable.

它所需要的只是可防御的。

But who can really defend?

但谁能真正防守呢？

That's very hard to defend a 10X.

防守 10X 是非常困难的。

10X jump, they're going to want to see 15X value.

10 倍的跳跃，他们会希望看到 15 倍的价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about design partners.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈设计合作伙伴。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is something most founders try to do.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是大多数创始人尝试做的事情。

They find a few folks to work with, to help them build the thing.

他们找到了一些人一起工作，帮助他们构建这个东西。

What's your advice on when to start finding design partners?

您对何时开始寻找设计合作伙伴有何建议？

How to find design partners, what a good relationship looks like?

如何寻找设计合作伙伴，良好的关系是什么样的？

Jen Abel: Design partners are incredible.

Jen Abel：设计合作伙伴非常棒。

They're the hardest logos to upsell, meaning go from design partner to full rollout customer.

它们是最难追加销售的徽标，这意味着从设计合作伙伴到全面推广的客户。

So don't expect these people to be your million dollar pipeline.

因此，不要指望这些人会成为你的百万美元管道。

Expect these people to be the guide, to help you understand, maybe design partners could be a technology company in the Fortune 1,000.

希望这些人成为引导者，帮助你了解，也许设计合作伙伴可能是财富 1000 强中的科技公司。

Jen Abel: So they're used to experimenting.

Jen Abel：所以他们习惯于尝试。

They're used to technology, they're used to, they were once a startup, so they get it.

他们已经习惯了技术，他们已经习惯了，他们曾经是一家初创公司，所以他们明白了。

Those make really good design partners.

这些都是非常好的设计合作伙伴。

Most of the design partners that I've closed are usually technology based.

我关闭的大多数设计合作伙伴通常都是基于技术的。

They get it and they also are excited about advancing the org and also giving the team an ability to have that startup feel.

他们明白了，他们也对推动组织的发展感到兴奋，并让团队有能力拥有初创公司的感觉。

Jen Abel: So if you're a large massive corporation like Stripe.

Jen Abel：如果你是像 Stripe 这样的大型公司。

Stripe doesn't get that startup vibe as much like that 50 person startup vibe, but this can be a gift to give them that lens and give them that voice and give them that excitement that they don't get as a larger company.

Stripe 不像 50 人的初创公司那样具有初创公司的氛围，但这可能是一份礼物，可以为他们提供镜头，给他们声音，给他们带来作为大公司所无法获得的兴奋。

But those are great types of logos to be early design partners because one, they want to make sure they continue to stay on the cutting edge, but two is they are, to try and build something without that guidance is really, really, really hard because they're not using it.

但对于早期设计合作伙伴来说，这些都是很棒的标志类型，因为一是，他们希望确保自己继续保持领先地位，但二是，在没有指导的情况下尝试构建一些东西真的非常非常困难，因为他们没有使用它。

Jen Abel: So you need that user feedback and you also need to tie that to the executive value.

Jen Abel：所以你需要用户反馈，并且还需要将其与执行价值联系起来。

It's actually a lot, it's very hard to do, but if you can come out of it and upsell a design partner to a full rollout customer, such a huge win for the market for you, for your team, and also for your investors because it's the hardest customer to actually truly convert.

实际上数量很多，很难做到，但如果你能从中脱颖而出，向全面推出的客户追加销售设计合作伙伴，那么对你、你的团队和你的投资者来说，这对市场来说是一个巨大的胜利，因为这是最难真正转化的客户。

Jen Abel: They've been it when it was messy, they usually got a low price point.

Jen Abel：他们在混乱的时候就这么做了，他们通常价格很低。

But if you again frame it, say, "Listen, I would love for you to be a design partner.

但如果你再次提出这个问题，请说：“听着，我希望你能成为我的设计合作伙伴。

I want a little skin in the game to get you to point it.

我希望在游戏中有一点皮肤让你指出它。

Here's where we want to go and you'll get a discount because you were in the beginning, but I'm setting the framing.

这就是我们想去的地方，你会得到折扣，因为你是一开始的，但我正在设定框架。

Here's where we want to go with pricing.

这就是我们想要定价的地方。

Here's where we are today.

这就是我们今天所处的位置。

You'll always have 30% concession in perpetuity because you are there with us on day one."

您将永远享有 30% 的永久让步，因为您第一天就和我们在一起。”

Jen Abel: So again, it's not about asking for $10,000 and then not expecting that design partner to upsell and keep it flat because there's no growth there.

Jen Abel：再说一遍，这并不是说要价 10,000 美元，然后就不指望设计合作伙伴会追加销售并保持不变，因为那里没有增长。

It's a flat.

这是一个公寓。

It's about getting that early design partner, set the framing, own the framing and let them know where you're going.

这是关于找到早期的设计合作伙伴，设置框架，拥有框架并让他们知道你要去哪里。

Again, a $100,000 to these large logos if they want it, it's very easy for them to get it in.

再说一次，如果他们想要这些大标志，花 10 万美元，他们很容易就能得到。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's this really interesting underlying piece of advice of finding a company that pulls you in the direction that leads to success.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一个非常有趣的基本建议，即寻找一家能够将您引向成功方向的公司。

A company that's kind of a visionary.

一家有远见的公司。

There's the obvious companies that everyone is always trying to get these days, OpenAI and Anthropic and Stripe I think is one.

现在有一些明显的公司是每个人都想收购的，我认为 OpenAI、Anthropic 和 Stripe 就是其中之一。

And any advice for just picking the right early?

对于尽早选择正确的产品有什么建议吗？

What are signs that this is a company that will point you in the right direction?

有哪些迹象表明这家公司将为您指明正确的方向？

Jen Abel: I think they have to be part of a logo that is deemed startup-friendly or in that world, and then I think it's the person, is this person excited to give feedback?

Jen Abel：我认为它们必须是被认为对初创企业友好或在那个世界中的徽标的一部分，然后我认为是这个人，这个人是否很高兴提供反馈？

Does this person buy in to where we're going?

这个人同意我们要去的地方吗？

Do they see this world differently like us?

他们对这个世界的看法与我们不同吗？

Are they in lockstep with the founder vision?

他们与创始人的愿景一致吗？

Jen Abel: Are they excited to use a tool that's janky?

Jen Abel：他们对使用一个笨拙的工具感到兴奋吗？

Because it is janky in the beginning, but they know that where this can go can be incredible.

因为一开始是很糟糕的，但他们知道这会发展到令人难以置信的程度。

So I think it's really about the person and making sure that they're aligned for what they're getting into, and I think a lot of salespeople oversell it.

所以我认为这实际上与人有关，并确保他们与自己所从事的工作保持一致，而且我认为很多销售人员都夸大了这一点。

I think that's a common thing that happens and that leads to churn, that leads to frustration, that leads to sometimes just canceling the contract.

我认为这种情况很常见，会导致客户流失、沮丧，有时甚至导致取消合同。

Lenny Rachitsky: They oversell the initial kind of design partners phase over the product.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们过度推销产品的初始设计合作伙伴阶段。

Jen Abel: They sell everything.

Jen Abel：他们什么都卖。

Yeah, design partner, even full rollout, and it's so, so important to tell them, "Here's where we are today.

是的，设计合作伙伴，甚至全面推出，告诉他们非常非常重要，“这就是我们今天的处境。

Here's what we cannot do." Which is just as important.

这是我们不能做的。”这同样重要。

It builds trust.

它建立信任。

"Here's what we will allow you to do in the next six months.

“这是我们将允许您在接下来的六个月内做的事情。

Do you want to be on this journey with us?

你想和我们一起踏上这段旅程吗？

And it's really ugly right now." Right?

而且现在真的很难看。”正确的？

"Barely anything exists, but we would love your voice to be a part of it."

“几乎什么都不存在，但我们希望你的声音成为其中的一部分。”

Lenny Rachitsky: One of the biggest fears I think founders have is having a company pull, basically build just for their use case and then it ends up not being used by a lot of people.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为创始人最担心的事情之一是公司的吸引力，基本上只是为了他们的用例而构建，然后最终没有被很多人使用。

And so how far do you go fixing their specific problems?

那么你在解决他们的具体问题方面做了什么努力呢？

Any advice on just how far to go with one company?

关于一家公司能走多远有什么建议吗？

Jen Abel: That is the founder's job.

Jen Abel：这是创始人的工作。

The founder's job is to have a clear vision and do not let anything delineate from that.

创始人的工作是拥有清晰的愿景，并且不让任何东西来限制这一愿景。

It's important to take feedback in terms of what is the market's reality, but it is the founder, and this is why being a founder is so hard.

根据市场的实际情况获取反馈很重要，但这是创始人的问题，这就是为什么成为创始人如此困难的原因。

It is the founder's job to interpret that because a lot of feedback you get is this is the old way, they're responding this way because it's the old way of working.

创始人的工作就是解释这一点，因为你得到的很多反馈都是这是旧的方式，他们这样回应是因为这是旧的工作方式。

Jen Abel: They want you to build this because that's how they're traditionally expecting to do that.

Jen Abel：他们希望你构建这个，因为这就是他们传统上期望这样做的方式。

It is not, "Here's where we're going, this is why we're not doing that.

它不是，“这就是我们要去的地方，这就是我们不这样做的原因。

I hear you, but here's why we're not going to do that because we're going to completely change the way you do this." That is the founder's job.

我听到了，但这就是我们不这样做的原因，因为我们将彻底改变你这样做的方式。”这是创始人的工作。

Jen Abel: And I think we did a bunch of design partnerships late last year and there was a lot of feedback given, a lot of feedback given, but the founder had such clarity with where he wanted to go that he was like 80% noise, 20% had I not asked this question, I wouldn't have gotten that gold in terms of where they are today.

Jen Abel：我认为我们去年年底建立了很多设计合作伙伴关系，收到了很多反馈，但是创始人非常清楚他想要去的地方，以至于他就像 80% 的噪音，20% 如果我没有问这个问题，我就不会获得今天的金牌。

And it's that 80/20 rule where 80% of what they're going to tell you is probably going to be not related to where you want to go or based off of the old way, but that 20% of, "Oh, I did not think about it that way." That drives everything.

这就是 80/20 规则，其中 80% 的内容可能与你想去的地方无关或基于旧的方式，但 20% 的内容是“哦，我没有那样想。”这驱动着一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: Have you seen a design partner pull a company in the wrong direction?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否见过设计合作伙伴将公司推向错误的方向？

Just screw their path?

只是搞砸他们的道路？

Have you seen that or is that pretty rare?

你见过这种情况吗？或者这种情况很罕见？

Jen Abel: No, I don't think it's that rare.

Jen Abel：不，我认为这种情况并不罕见。

We hear people complain about it all the time, but I think it's more of an excuse.

我们总是听到人们抱怨这一点，但我认为这更多的是一个借口。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to this question of going after the enterprise versus SMBs.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到这个针对企业与中小企业的问题。

And again, early advice you gave is there's no, don't go in between.

再说一遍，您早期给出的建议是，不，不要介于两者之间。

Either pick SMB small company, which I know you said there's a million ways to differentiate what this means, but I guess I think of employee numbers under some number over a thousand is maybe enterprise.

要么选择 SMB 小公司，我知道你说过有一百万种方法来区分这意味着什么，但我想我认为员工数量低于一千以上的可能是企业。

Is that a good way to think about it just like-

这是一个很好的思考方式吗——

Jen Abel: Yeah, it depends.

Jen Abel：是的，这要看情况。

Are you selling per seats or are you selling based off of usage or are you selling off of, I think it also depends on the pricing model a little bit.

您是按座位销售还是根据使用情况销售还是按使用量销售，我认为这也取决于定价模型。

I look at headcount too because it's just such an easy way to think about it because you can also gauge usage off that and a bunch of other things, but sometimes the small companies, I think we're going to see a lot more larger companies become smaller because of AI, not significantly smaller, but also high margins allow them to experiment more too.

我也关注员工人数，因为这是一种很简单的思考方式，因为你还可以根据员工人数和其他一些因素来衡量使用情况，但有时小公司，我认为我们会看到更多的大公司因为人工智能而变得更小，不是明显更小，但高利润率也让他们能够进行更多的实验。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such an interesting point you're making there that the way we designate enterprise versus SMB like may shift because number of employees may go down with AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提出的这一点非常有趣，我们指定企业与中小企业的方式可能会发生变化，因为人工智能的员工数量可能会减少。

Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

So where I was going to go with this question is when people are deciding, I'm going to go enterprise versus I'm going to sell to startups, like YC companies are the typical example they sell to their own YC batches and you just broad advice of picking, "Okay, we go enterprise versus no, let's actually go startup."

因此，我要回答这个问题的地方是，当人们决定，我要走向企业还是我要向初创公司出售产品时，就像 YC 公司是他们向自己的 YC 批次出售产品的典型例子，你只是选择的广泛建议，“好吧，我们走向企业而不是不，让我们真正走向初创公司。”

Jen Abel: I think it's about, and I read this somewhere and I wholeheartedly agree with it because I've seen it live.

Jen Abel：我认为这是关于，我在某处读过这篇文章，我完全同意它，因为我亲眼目睹了它的现场表演。

I think it's about what game does the founder best understand?

我觉得是创始人最懂什么游戏？

Are they an incredible marketer and have some competitive edge for how they can win a massive audience?

他们是否是一位令人难以置信的营销人员，并且在如何赢得大量受众方面具有一定的竞争优势？

Jen Abel: I would say go SMB and marketing led or are they a bit more really understand how large corporations work and really excited to deliver on $100,000 plus type of opportunities or the value that they are building for is way more relatable to an enterprise versus a small business.

Jen Abel：我想说的是，中小企业和营销是主导，还是他们更真正了解大公司的运作方式，并且真的很高兴能够提供 100,000 美元以上的机会，或者他们正在构建的价值与企业相比，与小型企业更相关。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣。

I've never heard of it described that way.

我从来没有听说过这样的描述。

I think about linear, which started very startup-ey and my take is they did that because changing the way you work is really hard and their bet was like, "Let's start with companies and grow with them and over time that becomes the default." Any reaction to that?

我想到了 Linear，它一开始非常初创，我的看法是他们这样做是因为改变你的工作方式真的很难，他们的赌注是，“让我们从公司开始，与他们一起成长，随着时间的推移，这将成为默认的。”对此有什么反应吗？

Jen Abel: I think that it sounds like that that's a great way to work because that's a technical tool, so that you need the right, also need to have the right infrastructure to sell.

Jen Abel：我认为这听起来是一种很好的工作方式，因为这是一种技术工具，因此您需要正确的工具，还需要有正确的基础设施来销售。

I think Slack, look, Slack and Microsoft Teams are still battling it out at the enterprise.

我认为 Slack 和 Microsoft Teams 仍在企业中展开较量。

I think it's also how you plug in and how you integrate and do they even have the right systems to support you?

我认为这也是你如何插入和如何集成的问题，他们是否有合适的系统来支持你？

The thing with open AI is they didn't have to connect to anything.

开放人工智能的特点是它们不需要连接到任何东西。

Jen Abel: So the value, people were bringing their own use cases to it and it's not like they, well they can ingest and they built that, it's a brand new thing and they started I think, this is someone told me this, so this could be hearsay, but I believe that they were already speaking to CTOs even well before they released to help them explain where this is all going and get their buy-in.

Jen Abel：所以价值，人们带来了自己的用例，这不像他们，他们可以吸收并构建它，这是一个全新的东西，他们开始我认为，这是有人告诉我的，所以这可能是道听途说，但我相信他们甚至在发布之前就已经与首席技术官交谈，以帮助他们解释这一切的进展并获得他们的支持。

Jen Abel: And it's much easier to get into the enterprise when you're like, "We won't even touch your data, won't even touch your data.

Jen Abel：当你说“我们甚至不会碰你的数据，甚至不会碰你的数据时，进入企业就会容易得多。

Just use it to solve problems and then we can build trust and then start to integrate and connect the pipes." But part of the challenges with selling in the enterprise, they're like, "All right, well let's connect all your data in the ..." "Whoa, that's extremely risky."

只需用它来解决问题，然后我们就可以建立信任，然后开始集成和连接管道。”但企业销售面临的部分挑战是，“好吧，让我们将所有数据连接到……”“哇，这风险极大。”

Jen Abel: So you have to start small and low risk, which is like, "Hey, what is the subset of consumers that churned?

Jen Abel：所以你必须从小规模和低风险开始，就像，“嘿，流失的消费者子集是什么？

Let's figure out how we could have made them happier, whatever it be." So that data is lower risk.

让我们想想如何才能让他们更快乐，不管是什么。”因此该数据的风险较低。

So again, it's also understanding your market and understanding what their ability to experiment is.

同样，这也是了解你的市场并了解他们的实验能力。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting this distinction between OpenAI right now, and Anthropic, I don't know if you've been seeing their growth, it feels like OpenAI is very consumer first and Anthropic is more and more winning on B2B.

Lenny Rachitsky：OpenAI 和 Anthropic 之间的区别很有趣，我不知道你是否看到了他们的增长，感觉 OpenAI 非常注重消费者至上，而 Anthropic 在 B2B 上越来越获胜。

I saw this chart recently where they're overtaking OpenAI now on B2B.

我最近看到了这张图表，他们现在在 B2B 上超越了 OpenAI。

I don't know, any reaction there of just these two different approaches?

我不知道，这两种不同的方法有什么反应吗？

Jen Abel: I don't because most enterprises I'm talking to mentioned Gemini.

Jen Abel：我不这么认为，因为我接触过的大多数企业都提到了 Gemini。

Jen Abel: Or Microsoft Copilot.

Jen Abel：或者 Microsoft Copilot。

So I don't hear much about Anthropic to be honest.

所以说实话，我对 Anthropic 的了解不多。

So that might be more of a small business startup-ey, I don't know or it's a different part of the organization that's using it.

因此，这可能更像是一家小型企业初创公司，我不知道，或者是使用它的组织的不同部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's a whole discussion or bundling right there of Slack and teams and then just Gemini just kind of coming in automatically.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是 Slack 和团队的整个讨论或捆绑，然后 Gemini 就自动加入了。

People don't have to adopt anything new.

人们不必采用任何新东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's something else that you talk about that I love that I don't think people talk much about, which is that enterprise sales is very creative.

Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到的还有一些我喜欢但我认为人们谈论不多的事情，那就是企业销售非常有创意。

Jen Abel: So I personally believe that small business sales is really a, I used to think it was more science than art.

Jen Abel：所以我个人认为小企业销售确实是一种，我曾经认为它比艺术更科学。

It was more figuring out what didn't work, running experiments, testing and validating, which I do believe, that's to get to foundations, where do we play?

更多的是弄清楚什么不起作用，进行实验，测试和验证，我相信，这是为了达到基础，我们在哪里发挥作用？

What do we want to do?

我们想做什么？

Like that early, early, early zero to one.

就像早、早、早从零到一一样。

Jen Abel: From one to 10, I think it's more of an art, which is how do I take my learning and how do I package it up where I own the framing, I can speak to very specific alpha, I can vision cast and where I better understand the problem over time better than the market does.

Jen Abel：从 1 到 10，我认为这更像是一门艺术，这就是我如何接受我的学习以及如何将其打包在我拥有框架的地方，我可以谈论非常具体的阿尔法，我可以进行愿景投射，以及随着时间的推移我比市场更好地理解问题。

And it's all about deal crafting.

这一切都与交易的制定有关。

Jen Abel: They just need to feel like the value they're getting out of it is way more than the cost.

Jen Abel：他们只需要感觉到他们从中获得的价值远远超过成本。

And it's sometimes about giving away things that don't really cost much to you, but are super expensive for them.

有时，赠送一些对你来说并不真正花费太多的东西，但对他们来说却非常昂贵。

For example, "Hey, we're selling X tool.

例如，“嘿，我们正在销售 X 工具。

We can build out Y specifically for you over the next year and integrate it because I know that you would've spent X number of dollars on engineering resources or you wouldn't have gotten in engineering head internally to do this, but we're just leave it to you.

我们可以在明年专门为您构建 Y 并将其集成，因为我知道您会在工程资源上花费 X 美元，否则您不会在内部聘请工程负责人来做这件事，但我们就把它留给您。

You got to give us a year to build it out."

你必须给我们一年的时间来建造它。”

Jen Abel: Again, you're not letting them sidetrack you too much, you're kind of containing it.

Jen Abel：再说一次，你不会让他们太多地干扰你，你会遏制它。

"We'll do that for you at no additional cost." That's huge value.

“我们会为您做到这一点，无需额外费用。”这是巨大的价值。

Right?

正确的？

Or, "Hey, we're going to run an event and we want you at the forefront of it.

或者，“嘿，我们要举办一个活动，我们希望你站在最前沿。

We want you to be a speaker." Huge value.

我们希望你成为一名演讲者。”巨大的价值。

So it's like all of these additional things that add value beyond just the product but are all part of the product and the vision.

因此，就像所有这些附加的东西不仅增加了产品的价值，而且都是产品和愿景的一部分。

Everyone keeps thinking the product is just what goes into their hand.

每个人都一直认为产品就是他们手中的产品。

Jen Abel: The product is pricing.

Jen Abel：产品正在定价。

The product is the opportunity, the framing and not letting them compare you to something else.

产品是机会、框架，而不是让他们将你与其他东西进行比较。

And I know we talked that on our first call, which is as soon as you become a comparison, as soon as you become one of three that they're testing out, you've already sort of lost.

我知道我们在第一次通话中谈到，一旦你成为比较对象，一旦你成为他们正在测试的三个人之一，你就已经有点迷失了。

It's all about differentiation and it's all about here's what you will be able to do tomorrow because of how we're going to serve you today.

这一切都与差异化有关，而这一切都与您明天能够做的事情有关，因为我们今天将如何为您提供服务。

Lenny Rachitsky: So along those lines, it reminds me in our first chat you actually made this point that I've never heard anyone else make, which is that services are a really good way to start getting into the companies that were most founders here.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，它让我想起在我们的第一次聊天中，你实际上提出了我从未听其他人说过的这一点，那就是服务是开始进入这里大多数创始人的公司的真正好方法。

Like, "No, don't do manual stuff for the company.

就像，“不，不要为公司做手动的事情。

Build a product that you can scale." Your advice is the opposite.

打造一个可以扩展的产品。”你的建议恰恰相反。

Actually start with self-services.

实际上从自助服务开始。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Jen Abel: Enterprise is the number one thing they buy services, they know how to do it's super easy, they do it all of the time.

Jen Abel：企业是他们购买服务的第一件事，他们知道如何做，这非常简单，他们一直这样做。

It's like the most consistent thing they do.

这就像他们所做的最一致的事情。

It's their largest budget item, external resources, consultants, whatever.

这是他们最大的预算项目、外部资源、顾问等等。

Jen Abel: If they have a very immature way of understanding the problem or they've never purchased technology to solve it to some extent, either one, you are doing something that's never been done before, which is rare in today's day and age, or they might just be laggards on the journey.

Jen Abel：如果他们对问题的理解方式非常不成熟，或者他们从未购买过技术来在某种程度上解决问题，那么你正在做一些以前从未做过的事情，这在当今时代很少见，或者他们可能只是这个过程中的落后者。

So you have to decide is this someone you really want to be working with?

So you have to decide is this someone you really want to be working with?

And if so, selling them as service, even though the technology is powering it on the backend is the fastest way to get your foot in the door.

如果是这样，将它们作为服务出售，即使技术是在后端为其提供动力，也是进入市场的最快方法。

Jen Abel: It's what they know how to buy.

Jen Abel：这是他们知道如何购买的东西。

Now, the idea is to once you sell that surface, once you get that foot in the door, then it's to guide them towards the product.

Now, the idea is to once you sell that surface, once you get that foot in the door, then it's to guide them towards the product.

"Hey, you're spending so much here, why don't we get you to come in and leverage the tool that's been powering this the whole time and move this more into technology serving you versus the human."

“嘿，你在这里花了这么多钱，为什么我们不让你进来并利用一直为这一切提供动力的工具，并将其更多地转移到为你服务而不是为人类服务的技术中。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

I think this will blow a lot of people's minds.

我想这会让很多人大吃一惊。

Jen Abel: Palantir, this Forward Deployed Engineer, that's exactly what they're doing.

Jen Abel：Palantir，这位前沿部署工程师，这正是他们正在做的事情。

There's a lot of companies out, I'm sure OpenAI, and this is what someone told me they were in and talking to CTOs and helping them better understand how AI and their organization can better work together.

有很多公司退出了，我确信 OpenAI 是其中之一，有人告诉我，他们正在与首席技术官交谈，帮助他们更好地了解人工智能和他们的组织如何更好地合作。

And it was them coaching them, educating them, whether they did it for free or not, I don't know, but they got their foot in the door, they started to build trust and then it gets adopted.

是他们指导他们、教育他们，无论他们是否免费这样做，我不知道，但他们迈出了第一步，他们开始建立信任，然后它就被采用了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is the epitome of doing things that don't scale that advice we always hear this is like, "Okay, this is what that looks like.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是做事的缩影，我们总是听到这样的建议：“好吧，这就是看起来的样子。

We will solve this problem for you.

我们将为您解决这个问题。

We are using software to do it." And then over time, "Oh, you could just do this yourself.

我们正在使用软件来做到这一点。”然后随着时间的推移，“哦，你可以自己做这件事。

It'll cost you less.

它会让你花费更少。

You can scale this."

你可以扩展这个规模。”

Jen Abel: Yep, that's right.

Jen Abel: Yep, that's right.

And they don't even need to know at first that software's doing it.

And they don't even need to know at first that software's doing it.

That could be the magic part, which is like, "Guys, we literally, we are literally doing this with our technology."

That could be the magic part, which is like, "Guys, we literally, we are literally doing this with our technology."

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目由 Coda 为您带来。

I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.

我个人每天都使用 Coda 来管理我的播客和社区。

It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.

我在这里提出了我计划向播客中的每位嘉宾提出的问题。

It's where I put my community resources, it's how I manage my workflows.

这是我放置社区资源的地方，也是我管理工作流程的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here's how Coda can help you.

Lenny Rachitsky：以下是 Coda 可以为您提供的帮助。

Imagine starting a project at work and your vision is clear, you know exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part.

想象一下，在工作中启动一个项目，您的愿景很清晰，您确切地知道谁在做什么以及在哪里可以找到完成您的工作所需的数据。

In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs, the documents and spreadsheets lives in one tab all in Coda.

事实上，您不必浪费时间搜索任何内容，因为您的团队所需的项目跟踪器和 OKR、文档和电子表格中的所有内容都位于 Coda 的一个选项卡中。

With Coda's collaborative all in one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI, all in one easy to organize tab.

借助 Coda 的全合一协作工作区，您可以在一个易于组织的选项卡中获得文档的灵活性、电子表格的结构、应用程序的强大功能以及 AI 的智能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像我之前提到的，我每天都使用 Coda。

And more than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused.

超过 50,000 个团队相信 Coda 可以让他们更加协调和专注。

If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time.

如果您是一个希望提高一致性和敏捷性的初创团队，Coda 可以帮助您在创纪录的时间内从计划转向执行。

To try it for yourself, go to coda.io/lenny today and get six months free of the team plan for startups, that's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to get started for free and get six months of the team plan.

要亲自尝试，请立即访问 coda.io/lenny，并免费获得六个月的初创公司团队计划，即 C-O-D-A.io/lenny，免费入门并获得六个月的团队计划。

Coda.io/lenny.

Coda.io/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of talk these days about this idea forward deployed something volunteer was really famous for, just essentially an engineer sitting in your office solving problems with you basically as an employee.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在有很多关于这个想法的讨论，即向前部署志愿者真正闻名的东西，本质上只是一个工程师坐在你的办公室里，基本上作为一名员工与你一起解决问题。

And then through that, they learn what software to build.

And then through that, they learn what software to build.

Is that something you're seeing too?

Is that something you're seeing too?

Jen Abel: Oh yeah, I think that a lot of companies, sorry, a lot of folks that serve the enterprise, they have a butt in a seat in their office.

Jen Abel: Oh yeah, I think that a lot of companies, sorry, a lot of folks that serve the enterprise, they have a butt in a seat in their office.

You look at these large consultancies like McKinsey, they're not in their headquarters, they're in their client's office all the time.

你看看像麦肯锡这样的大型咨询公司，他们并不在总部，而是一直在客户的办公室里。

And the other interesting thing and proof of this is how many people go to a Deloitte or Accenture and expect them to be a channel partner?

And the other interesting thing and proof of this is how many people go to a Deloitte or Accenture and expect them to be a channel partner?

Jen Abel: This is exactly what this is all about, which is they sell this service, they come in and then they introduce, "Hey, look at what this startup is doing over here.

Jen Abel：这正是这一切的全部内容，他们出售这项服务，他们进来然后介绍，“嘿，看看这家初创公司在这里做什么。

You might want to give them a shot.

You might want to give them a shot.

The problem with channel partnerships and why I don't believe in them is there are a hundred of you on this list and you're expecting them to sell it on your behalf."

渠道合作伙伴关系的问题以及我不相信他们的原因是，这个名单上有一百个人，而你期望他们代表你出售它。”

Jen Abel: Biggest no-no, they're not vision casters, they're not visionaries, they're consultants, but it goes all towards go.

Jen Abel: Biggest no-no, they're not vision casters, they're not visionaries, they're consultants, but it goes all towards go.

I remember startups saying, "Oh, I'm going to go win over Accenture and then have them disseminate me into their clients." And I'm like, as if that's a workable strategy.

I remember startups saying, "Oh, I'm going to go win over Accenture and then have them disseminate me into their clients." And I'm like, as if that's a workable strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

You know what might be helpful is, let me try to summarize some of the best pieces of advice you've shared so far.

You know what might be helpful is, let me try to summarize some of the best pieces of advice you've shared so far.

And this is specifically for folks trying to go from about a million ARR to about 10 million ARR.

And this is specifically for folks trying to go from about a million ARR to about 10 million ARR.

And then I want to ask you just what's most different about these two stages, but let me share this first.

And then I want to ask you just what's most different about these two stages, but let me share this first.

So advice one is go for tier one logos earlier than you think you should because they're early adopters, they can move fast, they can pull you in the right direction.

因此，建议一是比您认为应该更早地使用一级徽标，因为它们是早期采用者，它们可以快速移动，它们可以将您拉向正确的方向。

Jen Abel: And they excite investors too.

Jen Abel：它们也令投资者兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, for sure.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，当然。

And other leads are.

其他线索也是如此。

Jen Abel: Yeah, and other talent, future employees.

Jen Abel: Yeah, and other talent, future employees.

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the counterintuitive insight here is you think they will move slow and be too busy, but they are actually the early adopters.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里违反直觉的见解是，你认为他们会行动缓慢并且太忙，但他们实际上是早期采用者。

Jen Abel: That's right.

珍·阿贝尔：没错。

They have to maintain that number one spot.

他们必须保持第一的位置。

And also, all of the people that are in the number two, number three, number four spot, all want to do what number one is doing.

And also, all of the people that are in the number two, number three, number four spot, all want to do what number one is doing.

So it's also pure referenceability too.

So it's also pure referenceability too.

Lenny Rachitsky: And the point about them being the early adopters, the people that join the Stripes in OpenAIs and Anthropics are like they individually love technology and love the latest stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们是早期采用者，加入 OpenAI 和 Anthropics 中的 Stripes 的人就像他们个人热爱技术并热爱最新的东西一样。

So as a human they're like, "Oh, this is cool."

所以作为一个人，他们会说，“哦，这太酷了。”

Jen Abel: That's exactly right.

Jen Abel：完全正确。

I'm just agreeing with myself, that's kind of funny.

我只是同意我自己的观点，这很有趣。

But yeah,

但是是的，

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a good sign.

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a good sign.

So two is ideally try to price closer to about a 100K, like 75 to 150-ishK is what you said.

所以两个理想的价格是接近10万左右，就像你说的75到150左右。

Most enterprises are used to buying.

Most enterprises are used to buying.

So instead of starting or even sticking with 10K, 20K for too long, you need to make yourself go towards 75 to 150K.

因此，您不需要一开始甚至长时间坚持 10K、20K，而是需要让自己走向 75 到 150K。

Jen Abel: That's right, yep.

Jen Abel：没错，是的。

And if you were to sell a service, I know we're talking about selling services first, throw weight that over time, so maybe it's 10K a month.

And if you were to sell a service, I know we're talking about selling services first, throw weight that over time, so maybe it's 10K a month.

So they start to get used to what that pricing looks like.

因此，他们开始习惯这种定价方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: So this is a way to make it feel, this is like how you get to 75 to 150K is there's a service attached to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这是一种让人感觉的方式，就像你如何达到 75 到 150K 是有附加服务的。

It's not just, here's my SaaS product, we will solve this problem for you, or a person will be sitting there doing this for you.

这不仅仅是，这是我的 SaaS 产品，我们会为您解决这个问题，或者会有一个人坐在那里为您做这件事。

Jen Abel: Or no, it's the technology too.

Jen Abel: Or no, it's the technology too.

You can add the services.

You can add the services.

I always, well let me take that back.

I always, well let me take that back.

Whether the services is bundled into it or not, some people will unbundle it, other people will say the services is a part of it.

Whether the services is bundled into it or not, some people will unbundle it, other people will say the services is a part of it.

But yeah, it nets out to 75 to 150K.

But yeah, it nets out to 75 to 150K.

That's right.

这是正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And you said that it's okay to start lower on ACVs and deals, but you need to push fast towards a 100K over a few months.

您说过，可以从较低的 ACV 和优惠开始，但您需要在几个月内快速达到 10 万。

Jen Abel: Yep, that's right.

Jen Abel: Yep, that's right.

If you can get into an enterprise for 10K in a month, which is not doable, but if you could, and you could go from 10 K to 50 K in four months through an expansion strategy all game, that makes sense, but it's really rare and very hard to do.

如果你能在一个月内进入一家企业，这是不可能的，但如果可以的话，你可以通过全游戏的扩张策略在四个月内从一万到五万，这是有道理的，但这确实很少见，也很难做到。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so there's two different paths there.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以有两条不同的路径。

One is land cheap and grow quickly.

一是土地便宜且增长快。

The other is move your ACV average up quickly.

The other is move your ACV average up quickly.

Seems like both, the latter is probably the more common strategy is just keep increasing prices.

看起来两者都一样，后者可能是更常见的策略，就是不断提高价格。

Jen Abel: Yeah, because the former you can get tripped up because they could say, "Okay, now give me an economical price for doing this for a hundred people." And then it all kind of evens out because now you're at the 100K deal anyway, but it's much, there's more room for error, which is why I say go in and try to land 100K.

Jen Abel：是的，因为前者你可能会被绊倒，因为他们可能会说，“好吧，现在给我一个经济的价格，为一百个人做这件事。”然后一切都会趋于平衡，因为现在你无论如何都在 10 万美元的交易上，但它太多了，有更多的出错空间，这就是为什么我说进入并尝试获得 10 万美元。

Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, in our first chat, we talked a lot about the procurement process, which is what trips a lot of people up and is really painful.

Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一下，在我们的第一次聊天中，我们谈论了很多关于采购流程的问题，这让很多人感到困惑，并且非常痛苦。

And I vividly remember that conversation still.

And I vividly remember that conversation still.

So if people are having issues getting through the sales process and procurement, a lot of good advice there.

因此，如果人们在销售流程和采购过程中遇到问题，这里有很多好的建议。

Jen Abel: And getting stuck in procurement is usually because you're not speaking to a senior enough person and they don't know how to navigate it, which is why I'm like that executive needs to be involved because as soon as the executive picks up a phone and tries to get a hold of their buying group, things move.

Jen Abel：陷入采购困境通常是因为你没有与足够资深的人交谈，他们不知道如何驾驭它，这就是为什么我认为那位高管需要参与其中，因为一旦高管拿起电话并试图联系他们的采购团队，事情就会发生变化。

Jen Abel: When people say, "Oh, I'm stuck in procurement." I'm like, "Oh, that could just be a qualification error and you never get out of it because you sold to someone too junior." So that's why the 100K is such a safe zone because even for 10K, you might have to go through procurement.

Jen Abel：当人们说，“哦，我陷入了采购困境。”我想，“哦，这可能只是一个资格错误，你永远无法摆脱它，因为你卖给了一个太资历的人。”这就是为什么 100K 是一个安全区，因为即使是 10K，你也可能需要进行采购。

So this is the surest way to make sure that you don't ...

所以这是确保您不会...的最可靠方法。

Listen, I've seen 10K take nine months to close.

Listen, I've seen 10K take nine months to close.

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Next piece of advice is this idea of vision casting instead of problem solving.

下一个建议是愿景投射而不是解决问题的想法。

So the advice here is instead of here's your problem, here's how our product solves it is here's how you will achieve alpha in the market by adopting the software.

因此，这里的建议不是您的问题，而是我们的产品如何解决它，这是您将如何通过采用该软件在市场上实现阿尔法。

We talked about the example of cursor where if you adopt cursor, you're going to draw the 10X engineers that are joining other companies right now.

我们讨论了光标的例子，如果你采用光标，你将吸引现在加入其他公司的 10X 工程师。

This will give you a big advantage.

这会给你带来很大的优势。

Jen Abel: That's right.

珍·阿贝尔：没错。

And yeah, it's pain versus opportunity, especially in the age of AI, and I know that we're moving into the next dimension.

是的，这是痛苦与机遇的对决，尤其是在人工智能时代，我知道我们正在进入下一个维度。

It's all about solving for a gap.

这一切都是为了解决差距。

It's seldom about solving for a very, very specific problem because people are trying to figure out what's our AI strategy?

它很少涉及解决非常非常具体的问题，因为人们试图弄清楚我们的人工智能策略是什么？

Where are we going to go with this?

Where are we going to go with this?

What is the world going to look like?

世界将会是什么样子？

I want to be a part of that new world.

我想成为那个新世界的一部分。

So it's a great time to be doing that.

所以现在是这样做的好时机。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then there's a bunch of advice you shared about design partners, of just how to select them.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后您分享了很多关于设计合作伙伴以及如何选择他们的建议。

Your advice is definitely have design partners because they will help you build the right thing.

您的建议肯定是拥​​有设计合作伙伴，因为他们会帮助您构建正确的东西。

But as a founder, you need to have a clear vision and sense of where you want to go and not just build everything they're asking you to build.

但作为创始人，你需要对自己的目标有清晰的愿景和意识，而不仅仅是建造他们要求你建造的一切。

Jen Abel: That's right, because important to say no. And that's all part of the framing, which is like here's, we want a little skin in the game.

Jen Abel：没错，因为说不很重要。这就是框架的一部分，就像这里一样，我们希望在游戏中有一点皮肤。

You set the price, but here's what we're marching towards in the next six to 12 months.

您可以设定价格，但这就是我们在未来 6 到 12 个月内的目标。

Are we aligned there?

我们在那里对齐吗？

If we deliver on what we say we're going to deliver, are we aligned there and do that kind of handshake?

如果我们兑现了我们所说的我们将要兑现的承诺，我们是否会达成一致并进行类似的握手？

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that I missed that you think is really important for this stage?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有什么我错过的你认为对这个阶段真正重要的事情吗？

Jen Abel: So one to 10 is no longer the founder.

Jen Abel：所以一比十不再是创始人。

Maybe the founder comes in very strategic points, but you need a really good enterprise salespeople.

也许创始人的观点非常具有战略意义，但你需要一个真正优秀的企业销售人员。

Taking someone from small business and expecting them to do enterprise sales, big no-no, it's a different game, right?

让来自小型企业的人员从事企业销售工作，这是大忌，这是一个不同的游戏，对吗？

Vibe like a different game.

氛围就像一场不同的游戏。

Jen Abel: You need to understand how corporations buy.

Jen Abel：你需要了解企业如何购买。

You need to understand how executives think.

您需要了解高管的想法。

You need to better understand simply just what the enterprise business model is all about and their ability to take on risk.

您需要更好地了解企业商业模式的全部内容以及他们承担风险的能力。

People will bring in super junior enterprise sales reps and I'm like, "You're looking to sell to an executive and you have this person that's five years out of school with no corporate experience doing it, again, unless they have some extremely deep experience in the industry or are just a unicorn in terms of, wow, this person can sell ice to an Eskimo kind of thing."

人们会引进超级初级企业销售代表，我会说，“你想向一位高管推销产品，而这个人已经从学校毕业五年了，没有任何企业经验，除非他们在这个行业有非常深厚的经验，或者只是一个独角兽，哇，这个人可以把冰卖给爱斯基摩人。”

Jen Abel: A junior person converting an executive, again, if the founder is involved, maybe that's doable, but usually the founder can't be involved in every deal and you need people that can, I always say you need people that can cosplay a founder, which is selling the vision, getting them excited, running through a wall to get the deal done and getting creative on ...

Jen Abel：再一次，初级人员转变为高管，如果创始人参与其中，也许这是可行的，但通常创始人不可能参与每笔交易，你需要能够参与的人，我总是说你需要能够扮演创始人的人，即推销愿景，让他们兴奋，冲破墙壁以完成交易并发挥创意......

None of my deals look exactly the same, every deal looks different and that's okay because every organization has slightly different opportunities of where they want to go, and you have to kind of build towards that and the framing may change.

我的交易看起来都不完全相同，每笔交易看起来都不同，这没关系，因为每个组织在他们想要去的地方都有稍微不同的机会，你必须朝着这个方向努力，框架可能会改变。

Jen Abel: So it's this ability to adapt from what you're hearing and let that compound over time, but I always say, can this person cosplay the founder?

Jen Abel：所以这是一种根据你所听到的内容进行适应并随着时间的推移而复合的能力，但我总是说，这个人可以扮演创始人吗？

I think that that's the best type of salesperson because it doesn't feel like sales.

我认为这是最好的销售人员类型，因为它感觉不像销售。

It's more of the art.

这更多的是艺术。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is amazing advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。

What is a common profile that you've seen be successful?

您认为成功的常见特征是什么？

What level of seniority?

资历是什么级别？

What kind of personality and any traits to look for?

需要寻找什么样的性格和特质？

Jen Abel: Maybe a former founder if you can get that, because they're used to selling, they sold investors and they've sold employees.

Jen Abel：如果你能明白的话，也许是前创始人，因为他们习惯于出售，他们出售投资者，也出售员工。

Two is someone with no sales experience, but has deep product experience or an engineer and can think about things in a unique way where the market is like, "Oh, this is so interesting."

二是没有销售经验，但有丰富的产品经验的人或工程师，可以以独特的方式思考问题，市场会说，“哦，这太有趣了。”

Jen Abel: Taking a typical salesperson then and putting them into a sales role almost always is where people get frustrated.

Jen Abel：将一名典型的销售人员置于销售角色几乎总是让人感到沮丧的地方。

The market, it feels salesy.

市场，感觉很畅销。

The market doesn't want to be sold to, they want to buy.

市场不想被卖，他们想买。

And I know that it's very hard to hire a really good enterprise salesperson.

而且我知道很难聘请到真正优秀的企业销售人员。

The number of people that I've interviewed, I can count on my hand the ones that I get really, really excited by.

我采访过的人的数量，我可以数得过来，其中那些让我感到非常非常兴奋的人。

Jen Abel: It's almost like coming across a great founder.

Jen Abel：这几乎就像遇到了一位伟大的创始人。

It's not as common as everyone expects, and I think that that's true for engineering.

它并不像每个人期望的那样常见，我认为对于工程来说也是如此。

I think that that's true for sales and I think a lot of people, sales is like, "Oh, just throw a body into it.

我认为这对于销售来说是正确的，我认为很多人，销售就像是，“哦，只要把尸体扔进去就可以了。

The product will do the work."

该产品将发挥作用。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Advice I often hear is don't hire a senior VP of salesperson from a bigger company.

Lenny Rachitsky：我经常听到的建议是不要从大公司聘请高级销售副总裁。

Do you agree with that?

你同意吗？

What's like to senior?

前辈是什么样的？

Jen Abel: Yeah, so the bigger company thing, the brand was doing all of the work.

Jen Abel：是的，所以对于更大的公司来说，品牌正在做所有的工作。

The brand built the trust.

该品牌建立了信任。

You need this person to be able to build the trust and they're usually, the product is still so new.

您需要这个人能够建立信任，而他们通常产品仍然很新。

The product is the founder in the zero to one stage.

产品是零到一阶段的创始人。

The product is just starting to get a case study.

该产品刚刚开始进行案例研究。

Jen Abel: You probably have maybe a few references, but it's still very, very early days.

Jen Abel：你可能有一些参考资料，但现在还处于非常非常早期的阶段。

You need the market to believe the salesperson and you need that market to know that they're trustworthy.

您需要市场相信销售人员，并且您需要市场知道他们是值得信赖的。

A VP of sales at a large company, I would say, they're best suited for a large company because one to 10, you're running through walls.

我想说，大公司的销售副总裁最适合大公司，因为从一到十，你就在穿墙。

Jen Abel: You have to figure out, you're doing a lot of convincing, you're doing a lot of educating, you're doing a lot of creative deal crafting.

Jen Abel：你必须弄清楚，你做了很多令人信服的工作，你做了很多教育工作，你做了很多创造性的交易策划。

A lot of owning the frame.

很多拥有框架。

It's not necessarily selling a product, it's selling that future value, which a VP of sales at a large companies, it's very different.

它不一定是销售产品，而是销售未来价值，这对于大公司的销售副总裁来说是非常不同的。

It's a different game.

这是一个不同的游戏。

It's kind of like the SMB and enterprise.

这有点像中小企业和企业。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting you said when you described the profile of a great hire here is you said they don't need to have done sales.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，当您描述优秀员工的概况时，您说他们不需要做过销售。

If they have done sales, what's a number years or kind of what do you look for that tells you, "Okay, this is a good fit for the first hire."

如果他们做过销售，那么你需要多少年或什么样的东西才能告诉你，“好吧，这很适合第一个员工。”

Jen Abel: I actually think it's less about experience and more about the person.

Jen Abel：实际上我认为这与经验无关，而与人有关。

Does this person make you feel good?

这个人让你感觉良好吗？

Do you want to buy from this person?

你想从这个人那里购买吗？

I think Jason, Jason Lemkin said that best.

我认为杰森，杰森莱姆金说得最好。

Would you want to buy from this person?

你想从这个人那里购买吗？

Jen Abel: The classic.

珍·阿贝尔：经典。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Do they mimic or mirror the market they're selling to?

他们是否模仿或反映他们所销售的市场？

It's much easier to buy from someone that looks and feels like you than it does from somebody that's in a totally different realm.

从与你外表和感觉相似的人那里购买东西比从完全不同领域的人那里购买东西要容易得多。

And also, an executive wants to talk to another senior person.

而且，一位高管想与另一位高级人员交谈。

Jen Abel: They don't want to talk to someone that just graduated from college and is selling them the new way of working.

Jen Abel：他们不想与刚从大学毕业并向他们推销新工作方式的人交谈。

What do they know?

他们知道什么？

So I think it's tricky.

所以我认为这很棘手。

I would say someone with no sales experience makes it feel different and special, that's what I like about it.

我想说，没有销售经验的人会让人感觉不同和特别，这就是我喜欢它的原因。

Someone with sales experience knows how to navigate and probably be qualified better, but it's almost like the blend of those two things.

有销售经验的人知道如何驾驭并且可能有更好的资格，但这几乎就像是这两件事的混合。

Jen Abel: And that's why I go back to cosplaying the founder, which is like, could this person close a future employee?

Jen Abel：这就是为什么我回去扮演创始人的原因，就像，这个人可以关闭未来的员工吗？

Do they get excited about the problems they're solving internally and the vision that they get to sell to?

他们是否对自己正在内部解决的问题以及他们要推销的愿景感到兴奋？

Lenny Rachitsky: This actually was a reader question, listener question from Twitter.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是来自 Twitter 的读者、听众的问题。

So Peter Dedenne asked, "How do you make this first salesperson as enthusiastic about the product as you?

因此 Peter Dedenne 问道：“你如何让第一位销售人员像你一样对产品充满热情？

Is there something you could do?

有什么你可以做的吗？

Is it more just they already are and you just leverage that?"

是不是他们已经很公正了，而你只是利用了这一点？”

Jen Abel: Incentives.

Jen Abel：激励措施。

Salespeople love to make money.

销售人员喜欢赚钱。

Jen Abel: So if they know it's possible, if they know it's possible, you'll be shocked what people can get done.

Jen Abel：所以如果他们知道这是可能的，如果他们知道这是可能的，你会对人们能完成的事情感到震惊。

Lenny Rachitsky: If they see how much they could make.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们看到自己能赚多少钱。

Amazing.

惊人的。

I imagine there still also has to be an innate excitement about the product and the opportunity.

我想仍然必须对产品和机会有一种与生俱来的兴奋。

Jen Abel: They have to believe in it.

Jen Abel：他们必须相信这一点。

They have to believe in the founder, but incentives usually make the world go round, but yeah, is this person, are they asking the right questions to the founder?

他们必须相信创始人，但激励措施通常会让世界运转起来，但是，是的，这个人，他们向创始人提出了正确的问题吗？

The best thing to do is have the founder join the first five calls.

最好的办法是让创始人加入前五个电话会议。

You know after five calls if this person has what it takes, and don't be afraid to fire.

打五个电话后你就知道这个人是否有能力，并且不要害怕解雇。

One in every two salespeople usually are fired.

每两个销售人员中就有一个通常会被解雇。

Yeah, it's a very high failure rate.

是的，失败率非常高。

Lenny Rachitsky: Because you can tell pretty quickly how it's going.

Lenny Rachitsky：因为你可以很快知道事情进展如何。

Jen Abel: You can tell, or the vision of the founders is just very wrong.

Jen Abel：你可以看出，或者创始人的愿景是非常错误的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of incentives, do you have any quick advice on how to structure their comp?

Lenny Rachitsky：说到激励措施，您对如何构建他们的薪酬有什么快速建议吗？

Just like how much they earn?

就像他们赚多少钱一样？

Jen Abel: It's usually 50/50.

Jen Abel：通常是 50/50。

So it's 50% OTE.

所以这是 50% OTE。

So it's 50% base salary, 50% OTE.

所以是 50% 基本工资，50% OTE。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then how much of the sale do they typically get?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么他们通常会得到多少销售额？

Say the first sales hire.

说第一个销售人员。

Jen Abel: It depends on the size of the deal, but in technology, it could be anywhere between eight and 12%.

Jen Abel：这取决于交易的规模，但在技术领域，可能在 8% 到 12% 之间。

So rounds out around 10%.

所以四舍五入约为 10%。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

When do you hire the first salesperson?

您什么时候雇用第一位销售人员？

Is it around the 1 million ARR mark usually?

通常ARR在100万左右吗？

Jen Abel: Yeah, it's around that 1 million ARR, mark and I, and it's usually when you have your first seven to 10 customers and there's some pattern recognition around it that you can share with somebody else, there's some consistencies.

Jen Abel：是的，大约是 100 万 ARR，马克和我，通常是当你拥有前 7 到 10 个客户时，并且有一些模式识别可以与其他人分享，有一些一致性。

Otherwise, it's just like that would be very hard.

不然的话，简直就是太难了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Basically as a founder, you have to figure out how to sell enough times so that you can show someone, "Here's what's working."

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上，作为一名创始人，你必须弄清楚如何销售足够多的次数，以便你可以向别人展示，“这就是有效的方法。”

Jen Abel: And this is the common thing I hear, "Well, I'm a $10 million business.

Jen Abel：这是我经常听到的一句话，“嗯，我是一家价值 1000 万美元的企业。

I'm in this small business space.

我在这个小企业空间里。

You're $0 in enterprise." It's a zero to one right now in enterprise.

你在企业中的价值为 0 美元。”现在在企业中这是一个从零到一的过程。

It's a totally different game.

这是一个完全不同的游戏。

It's a different value proposition, it's a different deal structuring, it's a different target market.

这是不同的价值主张，不同的交易结构，不同的目标市场。

It's a different risk tolerance.

这是不同的风险承受能力。

It's totally different.

这是完全不同的。

So don't be blindsided when-

所以当——

Jen Abel: ...

珍·阿贝尔：...

There's a lot of unlearning that needs to happen when you move into a new market.

当你进入一个新市场时，需要忘记很多东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice here is make yourself sell up until around a million ARR, especially if you're trying to go enterprise selling to enterprises yourself as a founder, which is really hard.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的建议是让你自己卖出去，直到大约一百万ARR，特别是如果你想以创始人的身份向企业推销自己，这真的很难。

You have so much to do and you have to be selling this thing for a long time time.

你有很多事情要做，你必须长期出售这个东西。

Jen Abel: Yep.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

And then try and find someone that you get excited by.

然后试着找到一个让你兴奋的人。

It's funny, if you ask the founder, are you excited by your salesperson?

有趣的是，如果你问创始人，你对你的销售人员感到兴奋吗？

I'm curious what the real answer is.

我很好奇真正的答案是什么。

It's like, "Well, it's a button to see it in.

就像，“嗯，这是一个可以查看它的按钮。

It was hard to hire, so."

很难雇用，所以。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

I remember, I think it was Jason's advice was to hire two people immediately.

我记得，我认为杰森的建议是立即雇用两个人。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you can compare them.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你可以比较它们。

Do you agree with that?

你同意吗？

Jen Abel: 100%.

珍·阿贝尔：100%。

Yeah, because of the 50% failure rate.

是的，因为50%的失败率。

I think that's exactly right.

我认为这是完全正确的。

So yeah, even a tall order, go find two people that are good.

所以，是的，即使是一个艰巨的任务，也要找到两个优秀的人。

But yeah, I think that that's right because one in two will fail.

但是，是的，我认为这是正确的，因为二分之一的人会失败。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let me ask you another reader question from Hang Huang.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我再问你一个来自黄航的读者问题。

This is kind of in a different direction.

这是一个不同的方向。

So he says, "The biggest challenge is always cutting through the noise to get that initial meeting with the right decision maker.

所以他说：“最大的挑战始终是消除噪音，与正确的决策者进行初次会面。

How do you even get their attention?"

你如何引起他们的注意？”

Jen Abel: It's the vision.

Jen Abel：这就是愿景。

What is the opportunity that you're selling?

您出售的机会是什么？

That if they are excited by that, they will take a call.

如果他们对此感到兴奋，他们会接听电话。

I see it all the time, and don't give away the farm.

我一直看到它，并且不放弃农场。

Keep it to three sentences.

保持在三句话以内。

And I know I said this on our first call, but say something counterintuitive, they could feel different.

我知道我在第一次通话时就这么说了，但说一些违反直觉的话，他们可能会有不同的感觉。

Make it feel like they can learn from you by taking a 15-minute call.

让他们觉得他们可以通过拨打 15 分钟的电话向您学习。

You see the standards of like, "Oh, I came across your LinkedIn." And, "Are you looking to grow your business by 15%?" It's like, "What kind of statement is that?"

你会看到这样的标准：“哦，我看到了你的 LinkedIn。”并且，“您希望您的业务增长 15% 吗？”就像“这是什么样的声明？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is in the cold email they get about this pitch.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是他们收到的关于这次推介的冷冰冰的电子邮件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So this is a good segue to another reader question from Hugo Alves, Co-Founder of Synthetic users.

因此，这是对 Synthetic 用户联合创始人 Hugo Alves 提出的另一个读者问题的一个很好的延续。

He asked, "What's the best advice for going from healthy inbound to targeted outbound?"

他问道：“从健康的入境转向有针对性的出境，最好的建议是什么？”

Jen Abel: Healthy inbound usually is a marketing-led initiative.

Jen Abel：健康入境通常是一项以营销为主导的举措。

So that's a marketing game.

所以这是一个营销游戏。

It depends what deal value you're selling.

这取决于您出售的交易价值。

Are you selling a $5,000 deal?

您正在出售 5,000 美元的交易吗？

It's got to be marketing-led to make the engine work.

必须以营销为主导才能使引擎发挥作用。

If you're selling $100,000 deal, you're doing outbound day one.

如果您要销售 100,000 美元的交易，那么您将在第一天进行出站。

So again, it breaks it into those.

再次，它把它分成这些。

This is like that blending of the, I see a blending of that question.

这就像这个问题的混合，我看到了这个问题的混合。

This is where you're doing small business marketing-led activities or are you a sales-led organization selling a $100,000 deal?

这是您进行小型企业营销主导活动的地方，还是您是销售 100,000 美元交易的销售主导组织的地方？

Lenny Rachitsky: And the reason that's important, just in case it's not obvious, is you're not going to make money if you're selling.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很重要，以防万一它不明显，因为如果你卖东西，你就不会赚钱。

People are spending time closing deals that are making 10, 20K.

人们花时间完成可赚取 10、2 万美元的交易。

Just the ROI on that won't work for your business model.

仅关注投资回报率并不适合您的商业模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

By the way, let me just say, Jen, this is an incredible conversation already.

顺便说一句，Jen，我想说，这已经是一次令人难以置信的对话了。

We've gone-

我们走了-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

Through so much.

经历了这么多。

This is exactly what I was hoping to get through and we've gone through so much advice that I think is going to be so helpful to so many people.

这正是我希望得到的，我们听取了很多建议，我认为这些建议会对很多人有帮助。

There's a few things that your partner, Justin also suggested I ask you about that I want to touch on.

你的搭档贾斯汀还建议我问你一些我想谈谈的事情。

One is you have this question you ask founders a lot that opens up their mind.

一是你经常问创始人这个问题，这打开了他们的思路。

You ask them, "If you give your product away for free, would people even use this?" And every founder is like, "Of course." And then you ask, "A customer this?" And they're like, "Nah, we wouldn't use this." And that just blows their mind.

你问他们：“如果你免费赠送你的产品，人们还会使用它吗？”每个创始人都会说：“当然。”然后你问：“这是一位顾客吗？”他们会说，“不，我们不会用这个。”这让他们大吃一惊。

Talk about just the power of that and how you recommend people approach this.

谈谈它的力量以及你建议人们如何实现这一点。

Jen Abel: I always say ask the questions you're afraid to because that truth is going to get you closer and closer to the answer.

Jen Abel：我总是说问你害怕的问题，因为事实会让你越来越接近答案。

So I'll ask a client straight up on a call, I'll say, "Honestly, do we think we're going to get the deal done this year?

所以我会在电话里直接问客户，我会说：“老实说，我们认为今年能完成这笔交易吗？

Is it possible?" They'll give you the real answer and people are afraid to ask.

有可能吗？”他们会给你真正的答案，但人们不敢问。

But the other side is sort of if they're in it with you, they don't care about that question, right?

但另一方面，如果他们和你在一起，他们就不会关心这个问题，对吧？

Jen Abel: Can't ask that question on day one, but if you are, and we didn't talk about this, but maybe this is important.

Jen Abel：不能在第一天就问这个问题，但如果你问的话，而且我们没有谈论这个，但也许这很重要。

Every single enterprise deal I have done, the deal is done, the deal is closed and pretty much done through text.

我做过的每一笔企业交易，交易已经完成，交易已经结束，而且几乎都是通过文本完成的。

It's not on email anymore.

不再是电子邮件了。

It is a relationship you're building with someone where if my enterprise client called me, I'm picking up that phone immediately or I'm responding them to immediately because that builds so much trust.

这是一种你与某人建立的关系，如果我的企业客户打电话给我，我会立即拿起电话或者立即回复他们，因为这会建立如此多的信任。

Jen Abel: If they know they can call on you, they're going to get you to pick up and they know that you're going to do everything humanly possible to make sure that this is successful.

Jen Abel：如果他们知道可以打电话给你，他们会让你接电话，他们知道你会尽一切努力来确保这次成功。

People will turn over rocks for you.

人们会为你翻开石头。

I have a client at a Fortune 10 company where I was like, it's so important we get the deal done this year.

我有一位客户在一家财富 10 强公司，我当时想，我们今年完成交易非常重要。

Is that possible?

这可能吗？

And she's like, it's a tall order, but if it's going to help you, let's do it.

她说，这是一个艰巨的任务，但如果这对你有帮助，那就去做吧。

Jen Abel: These are how enterprise deals gets done, it's relationships and it's this, and this is why I'm saying structuring the deal, make it feel like you went to bat for them and in often cases, you are going to bat for them and structure it in a way that makes sense for them.

Jen Abel：这就是企业交易的完成方式，是关系，就是这样，这就是为什么我说构建交易，让人感觉你为他们辩护，在很多情况下，你会为​​他们辩护，并以对他们有意义的方式构建交易。

Everyone kind of just tries and pigeonhole.

每个人都只是尝试和分类。

Pigeonholing and deal structuring consistency is important for a $10,000, sub-$10,000 deal.

对于 10,000 美元至 10,000 美元以下的交易来说，鸽派和交易结构的一致性非常重要。

A $100,000 deal, it very commonly will look different every time.

一笔 10 万美元的交易，通常每次都会看起来不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: April Dunford was on the podcast and she shared this really interesting insight that the reason people behave this way is the person at the company buying this thing, their ass is on the line Also, their reputation is on the line for this thing to work out.

Lenny Rachitsky：April Dunford 在播客中分享了一个非常有趣的见解，即人们这样做的原因是公司里的人购买了这个东西，他们的屁股也岌岌可危，而且，他们的声誉也岌岌可危。

So they want it to go really well.

所以他们希望事情进展顺利。

Jen Abel: That's right.

珍·阿贝尔：没错。

Again, they do this one in every three years, one in every two years, maybe one in every five years.

同样，他们每三年进行一次，每两年一次，也许每五年一次。

Hell, I don't know.

见鬼，我不知道。

They don't do this every year.

他们并不是每年都这样做。

It's very rare.

这是非常罕见的。

It's no one likes a new tool.

没有人喜欢新工具。

No one.

没有人。

Not you, not me, unless it changes everything.

不是你，不是我，除非它改变了一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Figma was a great example, that's Slack.

Figma 就是一个很好的例子，那就是 Slack。

Lenny Rachitsky: Everything that worked out.

Lenny Rachitsky：一切顺利。

You said that you asked these questions that people are afraid to ask.

你说你问了这些人们不敢问的问题。

What are some other examples of questions you often ask that people are afraid to ask?

还有哪些您经常提出但人们不敢问的问题的例子？

Jen Abel: I will say, "Listen, this is $150,000 engagement.

Jen Abel：我会说，“听着，这是 150,000 美元的订婚费用。

I will co-author it with you where we can make this a little bit bigger if you need something else.

我将与您共同创作它，如果您需要其他东西，我们可以将其做得更大一些。

We can make it a little bit smaller in year one, but in year two it steps up.

我们可以在第一年将其缩小一点，但在第二年它会加大。

How do we get this done so when you go to bat, it's a win?" Sell them, do they take it to the wrong side and try and discount you?

我们如何做到这一点，以便当你击球时，这就是一场胜利？”卖掉他们，他们会不会把它带到错误的一边并试图给你打折？

I've actually never seen that because at that point you have a relationship.

我实际上从未见过这一点，因为那时你们已经建立了关系。

Jen Abel: So co-authoring the pricing is so important because they need to know that they go to bat, they can say, "I got this out of them.

Jen Abel：因此，共同制定定价非常重要，因为他们需要知道他们会采取行动，他们可以说，“我从他们那里得到了这个。

If we get this deal done." So this is why when I say every deal looks the same, you're asking great questions because it's explaining why I meant by that, but this is another example of why every deal in the enterprise sort of looks somewhat different because a lot of it is co-authored.

如果我们完成这笔交易的话。”因此，这就是为什么当我说每笔交易看起来都一样时，你是在问很好的问题，因为它解释了我的意思，但这是另一个例子，说明为什么企业中的每笔交易看起来都有些不同，因为其中很多都是共同撰写的。

So again, if someone wants a slightly lower price, give it to them, but maybe them lock them in a little bit longer.

所以，如果有人想要稍微低一点的价格，就给他们，但也许他们会锁定更长的时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's another point that Justin makes that you've touched on a bit, but it's when your no, the way he phrased it is, Jen always talks about how no is the best answer to yes because no is data that you can use.

Lenny Rachitsky：贾斯汀提出的另一点你已经提到过，但当你说“不”时，就像他所说的那样，Jen 总是说“不”是对“是”的最佳答案，因为“不”是你可以使用的数据。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Jen Abel: I am a qualification crazy person.

Jen Abel：我是一个对资格疯狂的人。

I will not get in on another call with someone because on the first call it's either a yes or a no, there's no in between.

我不会再与某人通电话，因为在第一次通电话时，要么是，要么不是，没有中间状态。

Humans are, we're so different and we're so unpredictable, but we're also so predictable at the same time, right?

人类是如此不同，我们如此不可预测，但我们同时又如此可预测，对吗？

It's very obvious if someone is excited and wants to do something, it is so obvious when someone is just trying to be nice.

如果一个人很兴奋并想做某事，这是非常明显的，当一个人只是想表现得友善时，这一点也很明显。

Jen Abel: So I will say to them on that call, "I'm sort of getting the vibe that this might not be a good fit or might not be good timing.

Jen Abel：所以我会在那次电话会议上对他们说：“我感觉这可能不太合适，或者可能不是一个好的时机。

Did I misinterpret that?" And they will usually say, "Yeah, you're right, it's probably not a good fit." And then immediately, "Great, I would love to stay in touch.

难道是我理解错了？”他们通常会说：“是的，你是对的，这可能不太合适。”然后立即说道：“太好了，我很乐意保持联系。

You've just saved a relationship and you've just saved yourself a ton of time."

你刚刚挽救了一段关系，也为自己节省了大量的时间。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And the implication here is just to your point, you're limited on time.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里的含义正好符合你的观点，你的时间有限。

You don't want to be spending time going down or rival that won't you anywhere.

你不想把时间花在对你无益的失败或竞争上。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to take a quick tangent on tools.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将快速切入工具方面。

What's the state of the art on go-to-market outbound tooling?

上市出站工具的最新技术水平如何？

Jen Abel: I don't use a tool because I believe in the manual and I'll explain why.

Jen Abel：我不使用工具，因为我相信手册，我会解释原因。

Every single note I send is slightly different because I see a picture of them and I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if that's going to land." Or I'm like, "Oh, they actually might appreciate this.

我发送的每张纸条都略有不同，因为我看到它们的照片，然后我想，“哦，我不知道那是否会落地。”或者我会说，“哦，他们实际上可能会欣赏这一点。

It's weird." Visual cues are so helpful.

这很奇怪。”视觉提示非常有帮助。

A picture is a visual cue, looking at how long they've been in the role, looking how long they've been at the company.

照片是一种视觉提示，可以看出他们在这个职位上工作了多久，在公司工作了多久。

Jen Abel: I use all of these little things and I seldom customize a note in a way that people expect which is that first customized sentence because AI does that, and everyone's doing that.

Jen Abel：我使用所有这些小东西，我很少以人们期望的方式定制注释，这是第一个定制的句子，因为人工智能会这样做，每个人都在这样做。

So I go the opposite extreme, which is like remove it and I customize it with how I frame it or the subject line.

所以我采取了相反的极端，就像删除它，然后根据我的框架或主题行对其进行自定义。

So it's like if I'm talking to someone like a peer, I might say quick question like QQ.

所以就像如果我和一个同事聊天时，我可能会说一些简短的问题，比如QQ。

Jen Abel: If I'm talking to someone that has a bit more experience, I might write a little bit of a tighter note, not all lowercase.

Jen Abel：如果我正在和有更多经验的人交谈，我可能会写得更紧凑一些，而不是全部小写。

So it just depends on who you're speaking to.

所以这取决于你在和谁说话。

And again, this is why it's okay to spend a little bit of time on this because it's a hundred thousand dollars.

再说一次，这就是为什么花一点时间在这上面是可以的，因为它是十万美元。

It's actually a million dollars at the end of the day because a $100,000 deal if you play your cards right turns into a million dollar deal over three to five years.

归根结底，这实际上是一百万美元，因为如果你处理得当，一笔 10 万美元的交易在三到五年内就会变成一百万美元的交易。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how much you enjoy this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你如此享受这个。

It's so fun to, so essentially what are you doing?

这很有趣，所以本质上你在做什么？

You're sitting on LinkedIn finding folks to ping and then you cold email them one individually, manually.

你坐在 LinkedIn 上寻找需要 ping 的人，然后手动向他们单独发送电子邮件。

Jen Abel: It's so weird, Lenny, I have no process.

Jen Abel：这太奇怪了，Lenny，我没有流程。

I kind of just go with the vibe.

我有点喜欢这种氛围。

I'll read an article about Tesla and I'm like, "Huh, they could be interested in this." Not because that article had anything to do with the problem I'm solving, but because I'm like, "This feels like a good Tesla day." It's hard to describe.

我会读一篇关于特斯拉的文章，然后我会想，“嗯，他们可能对此感兴趣。”不是因为那篇文章与我正在解决的问题有任何关系，而是因为我想，“这感觉像是特斯拉的美好一天。”很难描述。

It's a very emotional thing for me, and not to toot my own horn, obviously, but I've been successful in sales and the most successful sales people can't explain why they're good at it.

这对我来说是一件非常情绪化的事情，显然不是为了自吹自擂，但我在销售方面取得了成功，而最成功的销售人员也无法解释为什么他们擅长于此。

Jen Abel: It just comes to them naturally.

Jen Abel：这对他们来说很自然。

It's just like an emotional thing.

这就像一件情感上的事情。

It's like the world's best founders.

这就像世界上最好的创始人。

How do you be a good founder?

如何成为一名优秀的创始人？

It's very, very hard to define.

这是非常非常难以定义的。

How do you become a good engineer?

如何成为一名优秀的工程师？

Very, very hard to define.

非常非常难以定义。

So I don't believe in playbooks.

所以我不相信剧本。

I believe that there's a feel to it.

我相信有一种感觉。

I emailed a chief legal officer at a hedge fund once and he responded to me because I wrote to him on Saturday.

我曾经给一家对冲基金的首席法律官发过电子邮件，他回复了我，因为我周六给他写了信。

I knew it was going to be busy.

我知道这会很忙。

I made it one sentence and it was tweaked for him.

我把它写成一句话，然后为他做了调整。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you feel like this is going to be the way as AI SDRs just kind of take over and everyone's getting billions of emails that feel AI-ish?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否认为这会成为 AI SDR 接管的方式，每个人都会收到数十亿封感觉像 AI 的电子邮件？

Lenny Rachitsky: So I guess maybe speak more there.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想也许可以在那里多说一些。

Just like is the alpha essentially just become human?

就像阿尔法本质上只是变成了人类一样吗？

Don't automate?

不自动化？

Should you think you should?

你认为你应该吗？

Jen Abel: The thing about AI tools is they're all pulling from the same databases.

Jen Abel：人工智能工具的特点是它们都来自相同的数据库。

So I'm like, "I want to email someone not in the database that's getting hit by a million folks.

所以我想，“我想给不在数据库中但被一百万人点击的人发电子邮件。

I want to take a back door in, not the front door where everyone else is trick-or-treating."

我想从后门进去，而不是从前门进去，那里其他人都在玩“不给糖就捣蛋”的游戏。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is effective for very large deal, which is what you need to be doing anyway because it takes a lot of time to do it this way.

Lenny Rachitsky：这对于非常大的交易是有效的，无论如何这都是你需要做的，因为这样做需要很多时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

So you're not like sitting in Clay, you're not like Apollo, I don't have all those tools.

所以你不像坐在粘土里，你不像阿波罗，我没有所有这些工具。

You're just finding people yourself.

你只是自己找人而已。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you start with a target prospect list at least just like, "Here's the companies that are the perfect fit for this and let's work through them."

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否会从目标前景列表开始，至少就像“这里是最适合此目标的公司，让我们来研究它们。”

Jen Abel: It's all in my brain.

Jen Abel: It's all in my brain.

I've been doing this for so long, I have in my brain, I'm like, these are my early adopters.

我这样做已经很久了，我的大脑里一直在想，这些是我的早期采用者。

These who I'm going to go to after I close those logos, they get excited by those logos.

在我关闭这些徽标后，我将去找那些人，他们对这些徽标感到兴奋。

So it's just experience of you land a Walmart, you're going to go to the rest of the industry and say, "Hey, we're working with Walmart." Versus you go to some lower end enterprise company and they're like, "Wait, what do you do?" I can't even comprehend.

所以这只是你登陆沃尔玛的经历，你会去行业的其他地方说，“嘿，我们正在与沃尔玛合作。”与你去一些低端企业公司相比，他们会说，“等等，你是做什么的？”我什至无法理解。

Jen Abel: Also, the most strategic people, some of the most strategic executives are at these tier one logos.

Jen Abel：此外，最具战略意义的人，一些最具战略意义的高管都在这些一级标志中。

That's why they're tier one because they've got super smart, really capable folks.

这就是为什么他们是第一梯队，因为他们拥有超级聪明、非常有能力的人。

They also extract the best talent, the best talent likes to experiment and continue to improve.

他们还提取最优秀的人才，最优秀的人才喜欢尝试并不断改进。

So it's like this compounding thing.

所以这就像是复合的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: For someone that isn't Jen and has all this experience, say their founder, they're hit a million ARR.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些不是 Jen 且拥有所有这些经验的人来说，他们的创始人说，他们的 ARR 达到了 100 万。

They're just like, "Okay, where do we find our customers?" Do you have any advice for just coming up with who we should go after?

他们就像，“好吧，我们在哪里找到我们的客户？”对于我们应该追捕谁，你有什么建议吗？

Should they be using these tools?

Should they be using these tools?

Should they be hiring someone like a Jen?

他们应该雇用像 Jen 这样的人吗？

I know this is what you do for companies.

我知道这就是你们为公司所做的事情。

So one crowd is go hire JJELLYFISH to help them through this.

因此，一群人聘请 JJELLYFISH 来帮助他们渡过难关。

Jen Abel: Founder, the founder.

Jen Abel: Founder, the founder.

I would say the founder, this is sort of in tune with them in a way.

我想说的是创始人，这在某种程度上与他们是一致的。

They just have to find it.

They just have to find it.

It's so weird to say it's all, and I hate saying it because it's like a commonplace thing to say, but it's like there's this thing about flow and it's like some of these brands are in flow with you right now, right?

说这一切太奇怪了，我讨厌这么说，因为这就像是一件司空见惯的事情，但它就像是关于心流的东西，就像其中一些品牌现在就在你身边，对吧？

You found this insight from somewhere.

You found this insight from somewhere.

Who else?

还有谁？

What's the next adjacent ring of people that would buy into that?

下一个相邻的圈子会相信什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: And so what I'm hearing is just pay attention to what's happening, what companies are-

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的只是关注正在发生的事情，关注哪些公司——

Lenny Rachitsky: The news, what companies are doing interesting things, who are the kind of early adopters in the market.

Lenny Rachitsky：新闻，哪些公司正在做有趣的事情，谁是市场上的早期采用者。

Jen Abel: If it was just a database list and it was just about figuring out the right messaging and then emailing folks, we would've known by that by now.

Jen Abel：如果它只是一个数据库列表，并且只是找出正确的消息然后向人们发送电子邮件，那么我们现在就知道了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

Okay, maybe one more question.

Okay, maybe one more question.

This again is from Justin.

This again is from Justin.

He shares that when you hit resistance, you never argue, you reframe.

他分享说，当你遇到阻力时，你从不争论，而是重新构建。

If someone says, "We already have X solution, you'll agree and pivot and totally X is great for this thing, but here's what we can do."

如果有人说，“我们已经有了 X 解决方案，你会同意并进行调整，X 非常适合这件事，但这就是我们能做的。”

Jen Abel: This is why it's sell to the alpha.

Jen Abel: This is why it's sell to the alpha.

Hey, I know.

嘿，我知道。

Listen, that problem you just described, you're right.

听着，你刚才描述的问题是对的。

You have a tool for that.

You have a tool for that.

We're taking you much further upstream with value.

我们将带您向更上游的方向迈进，为您带来价值。

This is the opportunity I want you guys to have access to.

这是我希望你们能够获得的机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love it, Jen.

Lenny Rachitsky: I love it, Jen.

I've gone through everything I was hoping to get through.

我已经经历了我希望经历的一切。

On the other hand, I feel like we could do another hour on all these things, I feel like we need to do.

另一方面，我觉得我们可以再花一个小时来处理所有这些事情，我觉得我们需要做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, we need round three on the next phase and all the things that people want to dig further into.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我们需要下一阶段的第三轮以及人们想要进一步挖掘的所有内容。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on or share?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈或分享的吗？

Jen Abel: This stuff is really hard.

Jen Abel: This stuff is really hard.

It's very hard.

这很难。

Sales is also all about learning very, very quickly from the rejection.

销售还在于从拒绝中非常非常快地学习。

The rejection is good because it's a forced learning and you never want to go through that again, but you have to be, I don't like to use the word cringe.

拒绝是件好事，因为这是一种被迫的学习，你永远不想再经历一次，但你必须如此，我不喜欢使用“畏缩”这个词。

You can't be afraid to cringe is like bringing your AI recorder into a call, that's cringey, but sending 15 notes to people that you can deliver serious value to, don't be afraid, and don't be afraid to ask the hard questions.

你不能害怕畏缩，就像把你的人工智能录音机带入通话中一样，那是令人畏缩的，但向那些你可以为其提供重要价值的人发送 15 条笔记，不要害怕，也不要害怕提出尖锐的问题。

Be different.

与众不同。

Jen Abel: The whole game is about, "Oh, this feels different.

Jen Abel：整个游戏都是关于，“哦，这感觉不一样。

That's what people want access to." Yet everyone commoditizes themselves.

That's what people want access to." Yet everyone commoditizes themselves.

They try and mimic what everyone, they try and mimic a forward deployed engineer.

他们尝试模仿每个人，他们尝试模仿前沿部署的工程师。

Just rename it.

只需重命名即可。

You don't have to use the same nomenclature.

You don't have to use the same nomenclature.

Everyone gets excited by the new because the new could be the next thing, the thing that changes it all.

每个人都会对新事物感到兴奋，因为新事物可能会成为下一个事物，改变一切的事物。

So that's why I'm always like, "Don't be better.

So that's why I'm always like, "Don't be better.

Be different."

与众不同。”

Lenny Rachitsky: An amazing way to end it.

Lenny Rachitsky：结束这一切的奇妙方式。

With that, Jen, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，Jen，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, Twitter accounts to follow?

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, Twitter accounts to follow?

Oh, amazing.

哦，太棒了。

Jen Abel: Lenny, the day I have time to read a book.

Jen Abel：Lenny，那天我有时间看书。

Jen Abel: Period.

珍·阿贝尔：就是这样。

I would love to be reading books.

我很想读书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

Twitter accounts to follow.

关注的 Twitter 帐户。

Tell me.

告诉我。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Look, obviously you, you produce some of the best content, truthfully,

看，显然是你，说实话，你制作了一些最好的内容，

Jen Abel: You get into the minds of people that they're not even giving this insight on Twitter.

Jen Abel：人们会认为他们甚至没有在 Twitter 上给出这种见解。

Who else do I absolutely love?

我还绝对爱谁？

Jason Lemkin.

杰森·莱姆金。

So for sales, Jason Lemkin is awesome, awesome follow for sales, and also he had a great, great recording with you.

因此，对于销售而言，杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）非常棒，销售方面的追随者非常棒，而且他与您一起录制了非常非常好的录音。

So link to that because that was a great piece.

所以链接到它，因为那是一篇很棒的文章。

I actually learned a ton from Matt.

事实上我从马特那里学到了很多东西。

I love Gavin Baker.

我爱加文·贝克。

Super nuanced takes.

超级细致入微的拍摄。

Takes a lot of obvious statements, but shares a lot of the non-obvious insight.

采取了很多显而易见的陈述，但分享了很多非显而易见的见解。

He's great.

他很棒。

Jason Cohen, have you ever had Jason Cohen on the cast?

杰森·科恩，你让杰森·科恩出演过吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Jason Cohen, a Smart Bear Jason Cohen?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：杰森·科恩，聪明的熊杰森·科恩？

Lenny Rachitsky: He's coming on the podcast at the end of the year or something.

Lenny Rachitsky：他将在年底或其他时间出现在播客上。

Jen Abel: Oh, that's awesome.

Jen Abel：哦，那太棒了。

What a great plug for him right there.

对他来说这是多么棒的插头啊。

Jen Abel: Yeah, those three would be great.

Jen Abel：是的，那三个就很棒了。

I know they're all men, but.

我知道他们都是男人，但是。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

I know you said you have time to read.

我知道你说你有时间读书。

Jen Abel: This is going to be embarrassing, Baywatch.

Jen Abel：这会很尴尬，海滩救护队。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Baywatch channel.

海滩救护队频道。

It's just so Numby, and it's like '90s classic.

这太麻木了，就像 90 年代的经典。

Baywatch.

海滩救护队。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I've never heard that one before.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，我以前从没听说过这个。

So this is original Baywatch with?

所以这是原来的《海滩救护队》吗？

Jen Abel: This is original Hasselhoff.

Jen Abel：这是原版 Hasselhoff。

David Hasselhoff.

大卫·哈塞尔霍夫。

Jen Abel: Yasmine Bleeth.

珍·阿贝尔：亚斯敏·布莱斯。

Pamela Anderson, the original cast.

帕梅拉·安德森，原班人马。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Deep cut.

深切。

Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？

Jen Abel: So the number one thing for me right now is an app called Playground, which is the pictures of my toddler that they upload into the preschool so I can get the daily updates on what's going on in preschool when he's not home.

Jen Abel：所以现在对我来说最重要的是一个名为 Playground 的应用程序，这是他们上传到幼儿园的我孩子的照片，这样我就可以在他不在家时了解幼儿园里发生的事情的每日更新。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I need that.

我需要那个。

We get emails and Google Photos.

我们收到电子邮件和 Google 相册。

I would really love that.

我真的很喜欢那个。

Jen Abel: Yeah, there was another one called ClassDojo.

Jen Abel：是的，还有另外一个叫做 ClassDojo。

There's a few of them, but Playground is the one that this preschool's on.

虽然有一些，但游乐场是这所幼儿园所在的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Love ClassDojo.

Lenny Rachitsky：热爱 ClassDojo。

I'm a small investor.

我是一个小投资者。

Lenny Rachitsky: How about that?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那怎么样？

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to find useful in work or in life?

您有最喜欢的人生格言吗？您发现它对工作或生活有用吗？

Jen Abel: Yeah, be direct.

Jen Abel：是的，直接点。

Cut the fluff.

剪掉绒毛。

Give me the bullet, not the paragraph.

给我项目符号，而不是段落。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

I was told that by Justin that you've never read a sales book.

贾斯汀告诉我，你从来没有读过销售书籍。

You've just learned to do this.

你刚刚学会了这样做。

If you were to read a sales book, if there was someone else out there that you look up to, learn from, is there anyone else out there in the world of sales that you most respect?

如果你要读一本销售书籍，如果有其他人是你尊敬的、向你学习的，那么在销售的世界里还有你最尊敬的人吗？

Jen Abel: I think Jason Lemkin has the strongest understanding of sales.

Jen Abel：我认为 Jason Lemkin 对销售的理解最为深刻。

His content is unbelievable.

他的内容令人难以置信。

He speaks about it clearly and cleanly, I would say.

我想说，他说得清楚、干净。

And as I mentioned, unbelievable Twitter follow.

正如我所提到的，推特上的关注度令人难以置信。

I'm a big fan of his.

我是他的忠实粉丝。

Jen Abel: I've actually learned a lot from him too.

Jen Abel：实际上我也从他身上学到了很多东西。

The 50/50 thing or a higher two salespeople, he's spot on.

对于 50/50 或者更高的两个销售人员来说，他是正确的。

Failure rate is actually probably higher than 50%.

实际上失败率可能高于50%。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that guy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我爱那个人。

And he's so AI-forward these days.

如今他非常注重人工智能。

He's just building.

他只是在建造。

He almost took down Replit with his complaints.

他几乎用他的抱怨推翻了Replit。

It was a whole new cycle of how Replit-

这是一个全新的循环，Replit-

Jen Abel: He should interact.

Jen Abel：他应该互动。

Sometimes he says things that are harsh, but you're like, "He's not wrong."

有时他会说一些严厉的话，但你会说：“他没有错。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Love it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢它。

I got to get him back on the podcast.

我得让他回到播客上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Jen, this was incredible.

Lenny Rachitsky：Jen，这太不可思议了。

This was everything I wanted to be.

这就是我想要的一切。

I feel like we just leveled up all the founders that have listened to this in their ability to close.

我觉得我们刚刚提升了所有听过此演讲的创始人的关闭能力。

We're going to just create all the economic value and a lot of happy VCs from all the sales that will be closed as a result of the advice you shared.

我们将通过您分享的建议而结束的所有销售创造所有的经济价值和许多快乐的风投。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to either work with you or follow you online?

如果人们想与您合作或在线关注您，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Jen Abel: Twitter.

珍·阿贝尔：推特。

Every new learning or mishap, I put red on Twitter, so it's like my personal diary and super responsive on Twitter DM.

每一次新的学习或不幸的事情，我都会在 Twitter 上加上红色，所以它就像我的个人日记，并且在 Twitter DM 上反应超级灵敏。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's your Twitter handle?

Lenny Rachitsky：你的 Twitter 账号是什么？

Twitter handle.

推特句柄。

Jen Abel: It's double J, So J-J-E-N_A-B-E-L.

Jen Abel：这是双 J，所以 J-J-E-N_A-B-E-L。

Lenny Rachitsky: You did not make that easy for people to find you, but we-

Lenny Rachitsky：你并没有让人们那么容易找到你，但是我们——

Jen Abel: Yeah, I know, I know, I know I didn't.

Jen Abel：是的，我知道，我知道，我知道我没有。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the J is for JJELLYFISH, is that where the extra J is for?

Lenny Rachitsky：J 代表 JJELLYFISH，那是额外的 J 的意思吗？

Jen Abel: Yeah, the double Js.

Jen Abel：是的，双 Js。

Then also, well, someone else had the handle, so I was like, "I need my name."

然后，好吧，其他人也掌握了控制权，所以我说，“我需要我的名字。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

By the way, just tell people what JJELLYFISH is in case that might be helpful to them.

顺便说一句，告诉人们什么是 JJELLYFISH，以防对他们有帮助。

Jen Abel: Yeah, so it's a consultancy that helps folks in the zero to one stage, and now I'm at general manager of enterprise at State Affairs, which is basically giving citizens and corporations an inside peek into what's actually going on inside the state capitol building.

Jen Abel：是的，这是一家为人们提供从零到一阶段帮助的咨询公司，现在我担任国家事务部的企业总经理，这基本上是让公民和企业深入了解州议会大厦内实际发生的情况。

State policy is way more impact than on you, than federal policy.

州政策对你的影响比联邦政策大得多。

Federal policy is written more about.

联邦政策写得更多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。

I've only recently learned that that's what you're doing these days, and that is super impactful and important, so thank you for your work there.

我最近才知道这就是你们这些天所做的事情，这是非常有影响力和重要的，所以感谢你们在那里所做的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: No big deal.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没什么大不了的。

Jen, thank you so much for being here.

珍，非常感谢你来到这里。

Jen Abel: Thank you so much, Lenny.

珍·阿贝尔：非常感谢你，莱尼。

This was a blast.

这真是太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。