The ultimate guide to founder-led sales | Jen Abel (co-founder of JJELLYFISH)

Lenny Rachitsky: I've always wanted to create a very tactical episode on how to do sales, especially with a focus on founder led sales.

Lenny Rachitsky：我一直想制作一个关于如何进行销售的非常有策略的剧集，尤其是关注创始人主导的销售。

Jen Abel: A lot of early stage founders get tripped up as they're taking late stage sales advice.

Jen Abel：许多早期创始人在接受后期销售建议时都会被绊倒。

The founder is the product.

创始人就是产品。

You have studied.

你已经学习了。

You have experienced something that most of the market hasn't even had a chance to maybe see or visualize yet.

你所经历的事情是市场上大多数人甚至还没有机会看到或想象的。

Lenny Rachitsky: A billion SaaS tools emailing me constantly about their product.

Lenny Rachitsky：十亿个 SaaS 工具不断向我发送有关他们产品的电子邮件。

How do you get someone to even want to talk to you and be open to learning about what you're doing?

如何让别人愿意与你交谈并愿意了解你正在做的事情？

Jen Abel: So if you can focus the messaging in a way that speaks to something that is a bit of shock value or is counterintuitive, you'll get them to continue reading.

Jen Abel：所以，如果你能以一种有点令人震惊或违反直觉的方式来集中信息传递，你就会让他们继续阅读。

When a problem is truly being felt by the market, people will get on a call, people will respond.

当市场真正感受到问题时，人们会接到电话，人们会做出回应。

Lenny Rachitsky: The next step I imagine is you're on the phone with them trying to convince them to actually care.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想下一步是你通过电话与他们试图说服他们真正关心。

What do you do there?

你在那里做什么？

How do you get them to engage further?

如何让他们进一步参与？

Jen Abel: You need to be vulnerable.

Jen Abel：你需要表现出脆弱的一面。

I would be very open and honest with where you are.

我会对你的处境非常开放和诚实。

Hey, I'm an early stage startup.

嘿，我是一家早期初创公司。

We have a lot to learn.

我们有很多东西要学。

Can we kind of gain your insight into how this problem is manifesting on your side?

我们能否让您深入了解这个问题在您这边的表现？

Founder led sales is not about revenue on day one.

创始人主导的销售与第一天的收入无关。

It is about learning as fast as humanly possible to get to that pulse, so that you can earn the right to sell.

这是关于尽可能快地学习以掌握这种脉搏，以便您可以获得销售权。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Jen Abel.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Jen Abel。

Jen is the co-founder of Jellyfish, where her and her team help early stage founders learn how to sell, do early customer discovery, and set up a repeatable sales motion.

Jen 是 Jellyfish 的联合创始人，她和她的团队帮助早期创始人学习如何销售、如何进行早期客户发现以及如何制定可重复的销售计划。

Prior to Jellyfish, Jen was an enterprise sales director at the Muse and a general assembly, and she's obsessed with helping founders in the zero to one stage of their journey.

在加入 Jellyfish 之前，Jen 是 Muse 和大会的企业销售总监，她热衷于帮助创始人从零到一的旅程阶段。

In our conversation, we get extremely tactical and in the weeds on how to actually do sales as a founder.

在我们的谈话中，我们非常有策略地讨论了作为创始人如何实际进行销售。

We talk through each step of the sales process, and Jen shares what you should be doing and saying at every step.

我们讨论销售流程的每个步骤，Jen 分享您在每个步骤中应该做什么和说什么。

We go through how to find your first set of leads, how to reach out to them, what to say in your message, how to structure your first sales call, how to get through procurement, and how to get that final signature.

我们将介绍如何找到您的第一批潜在客户、如何联系他们、在消息中说什么、如何组织您的第一次销售拜访、如何完成采购以及如何获得最终签名。

Lenny Rachitsky: She shares actual words you should be using, and phrases and structures, and pitfalls that most people run into at each of these steps.

Lenny Rachitsky：她分享了您应该使用的实际单词、短语和结构，以及大多数人在每个步骤中遇到的陷阱。

I've never heard a podcast episode with this much advice that you can put into practice tomorrow, and I am very excited to hear how it goes for you.

我从来没有听过一个播客节目有这么多建议，你明天就可以付诸实践，我很高兴听到它对你来说效果如何。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Jen Abel.

接下来，我为您带来 Jen Abel。

Lenny Rachitsky: Jen, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Jen，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I've always wanted to do is to create a very tactical episode on how to do sales, like how to actually have sales conversations, how to find leads, how to close deals.

Lenny Rachitsky：我一直想做的是制作一个关于如何进行销售的非常有策略的剧集，例如如何实际进行销售对话，如何寻找潜在客户，如何完成交易。

Especially with a focus on founder led sales, where founders are doing the early sales versus hiring salesperson.

尤其是关注创始人主导的销售，创始人负责早期销售而不是雇用销售人员。

Which one, I know you're a huge advocate of and we'll talk about this.

我知道您是哪一个的大力倡导者，我们将讨论这一点。

And two, you basically spent all your time working with founders and founding teams, helping them learn how to do sales, how to set up their go-to-market motions, how to scale teams, sales teams, how to hire sales people.

第二，你基本上把所有的时间都花在了与创始人和创始团队合作上，帮助他们学习如何进行销售、如何制定进入市场的计划、如何扩展团队、销售团队、如何雇用销售人员。

So I'm very excited to have you here to create a very in the weeds, hands-on episode on how to do sales.

因此，我很高兴您能在这里制作一期关于如何进行销售的非常实用的实践节目。

How does that sound broadly?

这听起来如何？

Jen Abel: That sounds awesome, and thank you so much for having me, Lenny.

Jen Abel：听起来棒极了，非常感谢你邀请我，Lenny。

I mean, it's a true pleasure to be here with you.

我的意思是，很高兴和你在一起。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's my pleasure.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是我的荣幸。

Many people have recommended you come on this podcast.

很多人都推荐你来参加这个播客。

I'm excited we're doing this.

我很高兴我们正在这样做。

Let me start with just this kind of question, our founder led sales.

让我从这类问题开始，我们的创始人领导销售。

Maybe just briefly explain what that term means and then talk about why this is so important, why this is the way you recommend companies start doing sales?

也许只是简单地解释一下这个术语的含义，然后谈谈为什么这如此重要，为什么这是你建议公司开始进行销售的方式？

Jen Abel: Founder led sales is really that first milestone that a startup goes through on the commercial side, which is, how do I go out and get my first few customers?

Jen Abel：创始人主导的销售实际上是初创公司在商业方面经历的第一个里程碑，也就是说，我如何走出去并获得第一批客户？

Some people might say zero to one, which is, how do I get my first million?

有些人可能会说零到一，也就是我如何获得第一个一百万？

Others might say, how do I go out and get my first 10 customers?

其他人可能会说，我如何出去获得前 10 个客户？

It's all kind of in the same vein.

这一切都是同一脉络。

And founder led sales is really, really, really important because in the very, very, very early days, when there is no brand equity, when there is no marketing engine running, when there is limited to no reference ability, the founder is the product, right?

创始人主导的销售真的非常非常重要，因为在非常非常非常早期，当没有品牌资产，没有营销引擎运行，当参考能力有限甚至没有参考能力时，创始人就是产品，对吗？

Because the product is still, could be abstract, could be an MVP or in it's really early formation.

因为产品仍然是，可能是抽象的，可能是 MVP，也可能处于早期形成阶段。

So the founder is the product.

所以创始人就是产品。

When people say, well, what does that even mean?

当人们说，好吧，这到底意味着什么？

It means that you are a subject matter expert on something highly specific.

这意味着您是某个特定领域的主题专家。

Jen Abel: You have studied, you have experienced something that most of the market hasn't even had a chance to maybe see or visualize yet.

Jen Abel：你已经研究过，你已经经历了大多数市场甚至没有机会看到或想象的事情。

So you have this novel insight that you are building a business around.

所以你有了这个新颖的洞察力，你正在围绕这个洞察力开展业务。

And it's that novel insight and the way you see the world that gets the market excited, in absence of a product.

在没有产品的情况下，正是这种新颖的见解和看待世界的方式让市场兴奋不已。

And that's actually happens even before you even show the product.

这甚至在你展示产品之前就已经发生了。

So founder led sales is how do you bring the founders vision into the world and have the market, and understand what part of the market accepts it, and then what part of that vision are they accepting?

因此，创始人主导的销售就是如何将创始人的愿景带入世界并拥有市场，并了解市场的哪一部分接受它，然后他们接受该愿景的哪一部分？

So it's aligning the founders vision with the market reality.

因此，它将创始人的愿景与市场现实结合起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Brave Search.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Brave Search 为您带来。

Brave Search is the private independent search engine that doesn't bias or censor results.

Brave Search 是私人独立搜索引擎，不会偏见或审查结果。

Brave Search and its answers with AI feature are available for free to all users on desktop and mobile devices.

Brave Search 及其具有 AI 功能的答案可免费向桌面和移动设备上的所有用户提供。

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通过 Brave Search，您可以更快地从他们自己的独立网络索引中获得真正的答案。

Their AI search engine can give lightning fast, incredibly accurate results for almost any question.

他们的人工智能搜索引擎可以为几乎任何问题提供闪电般快速、极其准确的结果。

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但 Brave 不仅仅是人工智能的答案，它还是一个强大的传统搜索引擎，具有真正的创新，而不是大型技术选项。

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它对抗偏见和 SEO 垃圾邮件。

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它带来了更干净的结果页面和更少的广告。

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Reddit 中的搜索引擎结果页面线程、强大的本地结果，甚至社区驱动的排名选项。

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厌倦了大型科技、同样旧的链接列表？

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是时候尝试勇敢搜索了。

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请访问brave.com/Lenny 开始。

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那是brave.com/Lenny。

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Lenny Rachitsky: And this is counter to what many founders hope is, I'm just going to hire a salesperson, they'll handle sales.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与许多创始人的希望相反，我只是要雇用一名销售人员，他们将负责销售。

I'll build the thing, I'll wait for them to find deals.

我会建造这个东西，我会等待他们找到交易。

And this is like a lot of people think this way.

这就像很多人这样想。

And founder led sales is the movement of just like, no, no, you should be doing the sales for a long time as a founder.

创始人领导的销售就像，不，不，你应该作为创始人长期从事销售工作。

Jen Abel: Absolutely.

珍·阿贝尔：当然。

I mean, it is the competitive advantage.

我的意思是，这是竞争优势。

I don't think people realize how much of a competitive advantage the founder led sales motion is, for three specific reasons.

我认为人们没有意识到创始人主导的销售动议有多大的竞争优势，原因有三个。

One is that the founder is the visionary.

一是创始人是有远见的人。

No one's going to be able to speak to it like they can.

没有人能够像他们一样对它说话。

No salesperson, really no non-founder.

没有销售人员，实际上没有非创始人。

The second is that they are the highest order in the hierarchy of the startup.

其次，他们是初创公司层级结构中的最高级别。

It's the founder.

这是创始人。

So the market is excited to talk to a founder because they usually know something that the market doesn't know.

因此，市场很高兴与创始人交谈，因为他们通常知道市场不知道的东西。

And they want to learn and maybe they want to experience something differently.

他们想要学习，也许他们想要体验不同的东西。

So being able to speak to the person that's running the vision, speak to the person that's crafted the vision.

因此，能够与执行愿景的人交谈，与制定愿景的人交谈。

Jen Abel: And then that third piece is that the founder can see something budding in a conversation that a salesperson won't be able to see.

Jen Abel：第三点是创始人可以在对话中看到销售人员看不到的东西正在萌芽。

And it's those budding moments that's where all the gold lives.

正是那些萌芽时刻才是所有黄金的所在。

And I don't think a lot of founders realize that.

我认为很多创始人都没有意识到这一点。

Their day one market vision is never the same vision that takes them in a product market fit.

他们第一天的市场愿景与让他们适应产品市场的愿景永远不同。

And I say that all the time.

我一直这么说。

It's these little budding moments where it's like I was able to get to that budding insight because I went deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper through these calls and these conversations, to fully refine how we want to go out and sell it.

正是在这些萌芽的小时刻，我好像能够获得那种萌芽的洞察力，因为我通过这些电话和对话越来越深入，以充分完善我们想要如何出去和销售它。

And only a founder is going to be able to see those things.

只有创始人才能看到这些东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this because this connects really well with an episode I just did with the CMO of Wiz.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，因为这与我刚刚与 Wiz 的 CMO 合作的一集联系得非常好。

And the founders went through this exactly.

创始人们正是经历了这一切。

They had 10 to 15 conversations a day for weeks, and then they're like realizing people keep telling us they like it, but no one's buying, no one's excited enough to want to actually move forward.

他们连续几周每天进行 10 到 15 次对话，然后他们就像意识到人们不断告诉我们他们喜欢它，但没有人购买，没有人足够兴奋想要真正前进。

And that was only happening because the founders were on these calls.

这只是因为创始人参加了这些电话会议才发生的。

Jen Abel: Yeah, I mean, the other thing too is that it becomes a game of telephone.

Jen Abel：是的，我的意思是，另一件事是它变成了电话游戏。

It's like, hey, this salesperson says that no cares about this.

就像，嘿，这位销售人员说没人关心这个。

What do you think the first thing the founder's going to say is?

您认为创始人要说的第一句话是什么？

It's the salesperson.

这是销售人员。

So much easier to say that than, is it me?

说起来容易多了，是我吗？

Is it my vision?

是我的愿景吗？

So it also kind of brings the accountability closer to the pulse where decisions are made.

因此，这也让责任更接近决策的脉搏。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting how similar this is to product building, where there's this idea that a founder top down can tell the team what to build, and it's this very waterfall cycle.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这与产品构建非常相似，创始人自上而下可以告诉团队要构建什么，这就是这个瀑布式循环。

When in reality the idea of the product and feature is just like step one, and then there's actually building it, testing it, talking to customers about it, that actually turns that initial seed of an idea to the real thing that people will want.

实际上，产品和功能的想法就像第一步一样，然后实际构建它、测试它、与客户讨论它，这实际上将想法的最初种子变成了人们想要的真正东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So the catch 22, I don't know if that's the term here.

所以第 22 条军规，我不知道这是否是这里的术语。

The challenge is, okay, so great, founders should be doing sales.

挑战是，好吧，太大了，创始人应该做销售。

Most founders have never done sales.

大多数创始人从未做过销售。

They just want to build product.

他们只是想打造产品。

They're mostly product people, design people.

他们大多是产品人员、设计人员。

Sometimes there's founders that are salespeople.

有时创始人是销售人员。

Rarely is that the case in my experience.

根据我的经验，这种情况很少见。

So doing sales is very hard, not something that comes naturally to a lot of people.

所以做销售是非常困难的，对很多人来说并不是一件自然而然的事。

A lot of people are very afraid of it.

很多人都非常害怕它。

So with that, let's get into how to actually get better at the sales process.

因此，让我们来看看如何真正改善销售流程。

I think a nice framework for how we can go through this is basically first let's talk about the sales cycle, the steps, the key steps of a sales cycle.

我认为我们如何解决这个问题的一个很好的框架基本上是首先让我们讨论销售周期、步骤、销售周期的关键步骤。

And then we'll just go through each step and help people learn some tactics to get through each of those conversations.

然后我们将完成每个步骤并帮助人们学习一些策略来完成每个对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Cool.

凉爽的。

So what's the simplest way to think about the steps of a sales cycle?

那么思考销售周期步骤的最简单方法是什么？

Jen Abel: The traditional sales stages that most CRMs are even set up as is you have your intro call.

Jen Abel：大多数 CRM 的传统销售阶段甚至是在您进行介绍电话时设置的。

You have your second call, which sometimes could be the demo depending on the stage of market you're selling to.

您有第二次通话，有时可能是演示，具体取决于您要销售的市场阶段。

Then you have your third call, which is going to be more about walking through a proposal, a scope of work, maybe going deeper into the demo to contextualize it to everything you've learned.

然后你进行第三次通话，这将更多地是关于演练提案、工作范围，也许会更深入地进行演示，将其与你所学到的一切结合起来。

The fifth call is going to be around probably an introduction to procurement.

第五次电话会议可能会介绍采购。

And then selling into procurement in itself, it's its own little sales cycle, but we could talk about that in a sec.

然后销售本身进入采购，这是它自己的小销售周期，但我们可以稍后讨论。

And then post-procurement, it's going to be obviously getting that signature and knowing who the actual signatory is.

然后在采购后，显然会获得签名并知道实际签名人是谁。

Sometimes it's not even the business unit, it's sometimes legal, CFO, procurement themselves.

有时甚至不是业务部门，有时是法律、首席财务官、采购本身。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

So let's walk through each of these steps.

让我们逐步完成每个步骤。

So I love that each call has its traditional goal, demo, proposal, then co-authoring, and then procurement, and then post-procurement.

所以我喜欢每次通话都有其传统的目标：演示、提案，然后共同创作，然后采购，然后采购后。

I love how consistent everybody is.

我喜欢每个人的一致性。

So if they're really used to buying, if they're very mature in their buying process, they actually might guide you to what the steps are.

因此，如果他们真的习惯了购买，如果他们在购买过程中非常成熟，他们实际上可能会指导您了解步骤是什么。

But most startups are turning non-consumers into consumers.

但大多数初创公司正在将非消费者转变为消费者。

So that's why this kind of fits well.

这就是为什么这种方式很适合。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So there's this intra call step.

所以有这个内部调用步骤。

So kind starting about where it begins.

从哪里开始就很友善。

I think where a lot of people struggle most is getting anyone to even pay attention.

我认为很多人最困难的地方就是让任何人都关注。

You don't want to talk to them.

你不想和他们说话。

A billion SaaS tools emailing me constantly about their product.

十亿个 SaaS 工具不断向我发送有关其产品的电子邮件。

So maybe we start there of just like how do you get someone to even want to talk to you and be open to learning about what you're doing?

所以也许我们从这里开始，就像你如何让别人愿意与你交谈并愿意了解你在做什么？

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

And this is why that founder led sales piece is so important.

这就是为什么创始人主导的销售如此重要。

One is when it's coming from the founder, it's an entirely different weight.

一是当它来自创始人时，它的重量就完全不同了。

You're like, oh, interesting.

你就像，哦，有趣。

This founder is reaching out to me.

这位创始人正在向我伸出援手。

Okay, I'm going to seek to go a layer deeper, knowing who is sending me this note.

好的，我将寻求更深入的了解，了解是谁向我发送了这张便条。

The second piece is this is why that novel insight, that technical insight, that business model insight that you've uncovered needs to lead here.

第二部分是为什么你发现的新颖的洞察力、技术洞察力、商业模式洞察力需要在这里发挥主导作用。

People are inspired by a new way of thinking, usually something counterintuitive, something that's really different.

人们会受到一种新的思维方式的启发，这种思维方式通常是违反直觉的、非常不同的。

I really try and stay away from better, because that's really hard to define, and better means something different to everyone.

我真的尝试远离“更好”，因为这真的很难定义，“更好”对每个人来说意味着不同的东西。

So if you can focus the messaging in a way that speaks to something that has a bit of shock value, or is counterintuitive, you'll get them to continue reading.

因此，如果你能以一种具有一定震撼价值或违反直觉的方式来集中传达信息，你就会让他们继续阅读。

So first and foremost, I usually like to open it with, which is why is this relevant for me in my role?

因此，首先也是最重要的是，我通常喜欢用以下内容打开它，这就是为什么这与我的角色相关？

Jen Abel: Why are you reaching out to me?

Jen Abel：你为什么联系我？

So first and foremost is relevancy.

因此，首先也是最重要的是相关性。

I think that matters even more so than personalization right now.

我认为现在这比个性化更重要。

I think it's so easy to personalize anything, and it can also come across as really stressed when you're like, hey, I noticed you were on such and such podcast, and that was when they were previously two roles behind.

我认为个性化任何东西都很容易，而且当你想，嘿，我注意到你在这样那样的播客上，而那是他们之前落后两个角色的时候，它也会给人带来真正的压力。

So I always say relevancy.

所以我总是说相关性。

If you can get to relevancy, that's the most important piece.

如果你能找到相关性，那就是最重要的部分。

The second most important piece is really getting to that level of differentiation or counterintuitive nature.

第二个最重要的部分是真正达到差异化或反直觉的程度。

So say something that would literally make them say what?

那么说一些实际上会让他们说什么的事情呢？

Or that makes no sense.

或者说这没有任何意义。

Maybe not that makes no sense, but what or how could that be?

也许这并不是毫无意义，但那是什么或怎么可能呢？

Or I've never thought about it that way.

或者我从来没有这样想过。

Or I actually don't fully understand what they're saying, but there's something there that's interesting.

或者我实际上并不完全理解他们在说什么，但其中有一些有趣的东西。

Get them to pause for a minute.

让他们暂停一分钟。

Jen Abel: And the most important piece is getting this done where, if they get it on their mobile phone, which everyone is looking at their mobile phone and on email, they don't have to scroll.

Jen Abel：最重要的是完成这项工作，如果他们在手机上获得它，每个人都在查看他们的手机和电子邮件，他们就不必滚动。

So usually three to four sentences max.

所以通常最多三到四句话。

That also, that's how a founder writes.

这也是创始人的写作方式。

That's how an executive writes if you're selling top down.

如果你是自上而下销售，那么高管就是这样写的。

But most importantly, leave them wanting more.

但最重要的是，让他们想要更多。

Don't say everything, don't even talk about the solution.

不要说出一切，甚至不要谈论解决方案。

Talk about the problem that you want to solve, and why it needs to be solved or why it's not good enough today.

谈论你想要解决的问题，以及为什么需要解决它或者为什么今天还不够好。

So those are the four main components.

这些是四个主要组成部分。

Just to reiterate, relevancy, bring some level of counterintuitive or really different approach to the conversation, focusing in on a problem that's predicated to them, and really concise.

只是重申一下，相关性，在对话中引入某种程度的反直觉或真正不同的方法，专注于与他们相关的问题，并且非常简洁。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Is there an example you could share that helps make this even more real?

您可以分享一个例子，让这一切变得更加真实吗？

Maybe an email you helped with.

也许是您帮忙处理的电子邮件。

And by the way, this is email and LinkedIn, I imagine is where you're communicating mostly?

顺便说一句，这是电子邮件和 LinkedIn，我想这是您主要交流的地方？

Jen Abel: LinkedIn, email, you would be shocked to hear this, but cold calling.

Jen Abel：LinkedIn、电子邮件，听到这个你会感到震惊，但推销电话。

I never used to do this.

我以前从来没有这样做过。

It is one of the most...

它是最...

The interest rates on cold calling are a lot higher than email in many cases.

在许多情况下，推销电话的利率比电子邮件高得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it's calling, email, cold email and LinkedIn DMs, is that the three channels generally?

Lenny Rachitsky：电话、电子邮件、冷邮件和 LinkedIn DM，这就是通常的三个渠道吗？

Jen Abel: Yep, those are the three, yeah, the main ones.

Jen Abel：是的，这就是三个，是的，主要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

Yeah.

是的。

Is there an example?

有例子吗？

It doesn't have to be word for word which you've done or people done, but just how do you...

它不必是逐字逐句地讲述你所做的事情或人们所做的事情，而只是你如何...

Yeah.

是的。

Jen Abel: Actually our first three years were built on cold email before we actually had clients, before we got word of mouth from the founders we worked with, I cold emailed the first 20 customers we had at Jellyfish.

Jen Abel：实际上，在我们真正拥有客户之前，我们的前三年是建立在冷电子邮件的基础上的，在我们得到合作创始人的口碑之前，我给 Jellyfish 的前 20 位客户发送了冷电子邮件。

And the line I used in there was zero to one sales talent doesn't exist.

我在那里使用的从零到一的销售人才的路线并不存在。

That's why I want to have a conversation with you.

这就是为什么我想和你谈谈。

So that was kind of that leading, wait, what?

这就是那种领先，等等，什么？

What does that even mean?

这到底意味着什么？

And what I would do is tie that to them in some respects.

我要做的就是在某些方面将其与他们联系起来。

If they recently raised the seed or series A, where they are in that journey.

如果他们最近筹集了种子资金或 A 轮资金，那么他们在这段旅程中处于什么位置。

But I would lead with that and then tie it into like, hey, I noticed you're looking to target X, Y, and Z based off of what your website.

但我会以此为主导，然后将其与类似的内容联系起来，嘿，我注意到您正在根据您的网站来定位 X、Y 和 Z。

I'd love to have a conversation with you.

我很想和你谈谈。

Lenny Rachitsky: And that first piece is the relevance.

Lenny Rachitsky：第一部分是相关性。

Here's why this is relevant to you.

这就是为什么这与您相关。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

And then I say, our belief at Jellyfish is zero to one sales talent doesn't exist.

然后我要说的是，我们 Jellyfish 认为销售人才为零到一的信念并不存在。

That's why we built this model.

这就是我们构建这个模型的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And you kept it really short.

而且你把它写得很短。

So it's relevance, counterintuitive, keep it really short.

所以这是相关性的，违反直觉的，保持简短。

And then what was the fourth piece?

那么第四块是什么？

Jen Abel: The fourth piece is just make sure it's concise so that you don't have to scroll on mobile phone.

Jen Abel：第四点就是确保它简洁，这样你就不用在手机上滚动了。

Lenny Rachitsky: While we're on this topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们讨论这个话题时。

What's a good conversion rate of these sorts of cold outreaches?

此类冷外展的良好转化率是多少？

Jen Abel: Conversion rate is interesting.

Jen Abel：转化率很有趣。

Because everyone's so focused on conversion rate.

因为每个人都非常关注转化率。

I get that in the beginning until you have some wins, you have to focus there.

我一开始就明白，直到你取得一些胜利之前，你必须集中注意力。

But I just want to reverse engineer it backwards a bit.

但我只是想对其进行逆向工程。

Once you kind of have this, and I'll talk about it in a sec, which is win rate.

一旦你有了这个，我很快就会讨论它，这就是胜率。

Win rate is if I got Lenny on a phone call, and he went through the sales process, and I signed him up.

获胜率是指我给莱尼打电话，他完成了销售流程，然后我签了他。

And I spoke to 10 Lenny's and only Lenny R was the one that signed.

我和 10 个 Lenny 进行了交谈，只有 Lenny R 签了名。

That's one out of 10, that's a 10% win rate.

这是十分之一，也就是 10% 的胜率。

Jen Abel: So if you have a really high win rate, let's say 30 or 40%, you actually don't need as high of a conversion rate on the outbound, because you know if you get someone in the funnel, the throughput is very healthy.

Jen Abel：所以，如果你的胜率非常高，比如说 30% 或 40%，那么你实际上不需要那么高的出站转化率，因为你知道如果你在漏斗中找到了某人，吞吐量就会非常健康。

If your win rate is really low, you need that conversion rate to be much, much higher, because you need more and more and more at bats.

如果你的胜率真的很低，你就需要更高的转化率，因为你需要越来越多的击球次数。

So conversion rate is a funny thing.

所以转化率是一个有趣的事情。

In the beginning I get it because you don't have a lot of customers going through the pipeline yet.

一开始我明白了，因为你还没有很多客户通过管道。

But there's people focus on it in a little bit of a false sense because interest rate truly is also dictated by win rate.

但有些人有点错误地关注它，因为利率确实也由赢率决定。

So I just want to specify that.

所以我只想明确这一点。

Jen Abel: I would say if you're doing a win rate around 15 to 30% and you need to carry, oh I don't know, a million dollar quota.

Jen Abel：我想说，如果你的胜率在 15% 到 30% 左右，那么你需要携带，哦，我不知道，一百万美元的配额。

I would say a healthy conversion rate from outbound probably sits around, when it's mature, around five to 7%.

我想说，当成熟时，出站的健康转化率可能约为 5% 至 7%。

Sometimes I've seen eight to 15% because it's coming from the founder, and they're solving a really heartfelt problem.

有时我见过 8% 到 15%，因为它来自创始人，他们正在解决一个真正发自内心的问题。

So interest rate is also predicated on the problem that the founder has decided they want to solve for, and their insight on that problem.

因此，利率也取决于创始人决定要解决的问题以及他们对该问题的见解。

Jen Abel: And everyone wants to keep going back to, well, email rate is really low, email doesn't work anymore.

Jen Abel：每个人都想继续回到，嗯，电子邮件的使用率真的很低，电子邮件不再起作用了。

Yes, you can argue that the game has changed a little bit, but when a problem is truly being felt by the market, people will get on a call.

是的，你可以说游戏规则发生了一些变化，但是当市场真正感受到问题时，人们就会接到电话。

People will respond.

人们会做出回应。

And if I can compare two engagements at a time that we're running, I see one where it's a 2% interested rate and then I'm seeing another one that's actually at 12% interested rate.

如果我可以同时比较两个项目，我会看到其中一个的利率为 2%，然后我看到另一个项目的利率实际上为 12%。

And we're doing nothing different.

我们并没有做任何不同的事情。

The only thing that's different is the insight that the founder has on the market, which is a hard pill to swallow.

唯一不同的是创始人对市场的洞察力，这是一颗难以下咽的药丸。

And I know that's hard to hear too.

我知道这也很难听。

Lenny Rachitsky: And those are two different companies selling different things?

Lenny Rachitsky：那是两家不同的公司，销售不同的产品？

Jen Abel: Two different companies selling to two different markets, but they're not fundamentally drastically different markets.

Jen Abel：两家不同的公司向两个不同的市场销售产品，但它们并不是根本不同的市场。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

But one's basically got more product market fit essentially?

但基本上有更多的产品适合市场吗？

Jen Abel: That's exactly right.

Jen Abel：完全正确。

So everyone always comes back to we have the sales problem, we have the sales problem, we have an outbound problem.

所以每个人总是回到我们有销售问题，我们有销售问题，我们有出库问题。

And yes, there could be some technical things going on that you need to look at.

是的，您可能需要关注一些技术问题。

Maybe you leveraged clay and you blasted a thousand people and now your domain health has been impacted.

也许您利用了粘土并炸毁了一千人，现在您的域健康状况已受到影响。

But the vast majority of the time, maybe you're just not saying anything interesting at all.

但绝大多数时候，也许你根本就没有说任何有趣的事情。

Maybe the problem you're looking to solve just isn't widely felt.

也许您想要解决的问题并未得到广泛关注。

Maybe the perspective you have needs another level of refinement because you're just not getting those bites.

也许你的观点需要进一步完善，因为你只是没有得到这些启发。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like this question you just touched on is something a lot of founders are always wondering, is this product not the thing people want?

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你刚才提到的这个问题是很多创始人一直想知道的，这个产品不是人们想要的吗？

Is it my sales skills?

是我的销售技巧吗？

I guess I imagine this is a very difficult question to answer, especially quickly.

我想这是一个很难回答的问题，尤其是快速回答。

I guess is there anything there that's more likely because of this, it means your product isn't something anyone's want, versus you're not doing a good job selling it?

我想有没有什么更有可能是因为这个，这意味着你的产品不是任何人想要的，而不是你的销售做得不好？

Jen Abel: Remember that amazing chart you drew where it talked about the length of time it took?

Jen Abel：还记得你画的那张令人惊叹的图表，其中谈到了所花费的时间长度吗？

I think you picked the top 25 startups.

我认为您选出了前 25 名初创公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: For product market fit timeline .

Lenny Rachitsky：产品市场适应时间表。

Jen Abel: Product market fit.

Jen Abel：产品市场契合度。

Yeah, that amazing image that I think has been reshared more times than anything I've ever seen.

是的，我认为这张令人惊叹的图片被转发的次数比我见过的任何图片都多。

It's interesting because if you look at, I was looking at this closely the other day.

这很有趣，因为如果你看的话，我前几天正在仔细研究这个问题。

If you look at the top section where the time to product market fit is consolidated, and you go all the way down to the air tables and the figmas, which a long time to get to product market fit.

如果你看一下顶部的部分，其中整合了产品市场适合的时间，然后一直到空气表和figmas，这需要很长时间才能达到产品市场适合。

If you think about the earlier ones, which were, it was like GitHub that had product market fit pretty quickly.

如果你想想早期的那些，就像 GitHub 一样，产品市场很快就适应了。

The SOC 2 compliant company.

符合 SOC 2 标准的公司。

Jen Abel: Vanta.

珍·阿贝尔：万塔。

There's this thing in my head and I haven't fully validated it but I'm going to share it with you, which is did they start with the market problem first and then build the product?

我脑子里有这个东西，我还没有完全验证它，但我要和你分享，他们是先从市场问题开始，然后再构建产品吗？

Because they knew who their market was right off the bat.

因为他们立刻就知道他们的市场是谁。

Versus an air table and a figma that I think started with a technical insight and then were trying to find their market.

与空气桌和figma相比，我认为它们是从技术洞察力开始的，然后试图找到他们的市场。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's absolutely right.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是绝对正确的。

Vanta, the way they approached it, Christina, she was searching for a pain.

万塔，他们接近它的方式，克里斯蒂娜，她正在寻找一种痛苦。

She was obsessed with talking to everybody about a pain that they needed solved, and then she just built it in spreadsheets.

她热衷于与每个人谈论他们需要解决的痛苦，然后她只是将其构建在电子表格中。

So she started with the market very much so.

所以她就非常从市场入手。

Jen Abel: And I think product market fit when you start with the market first, it's accelerated.

Jen Abel：我认为当你首先从市场开始时，产品市场就会适应，它会加速。

But I will say this, I think that it's also capped on the upside.

但我要说的是，我认为它的上行空间也受到限制。

Because you're starting with the market versus the air table and the figma, which started with the technical insight and has uncapped upside.

因为你是从市场开始，而不是空气桌和figma，后者从技术洞察力开始，并且具有无限的上升空间。

But one is certainly riskier than the other.

但其中一个肯定比另一个风险更大。

Starting with a product is a hell of a lot riskier.

从产品入手的风险要大得多。

And this is where I come back to so many people will say, how did you get funding and not know who your market is?

这就是我回过头来很多人会说的，你是如何获得资金而不知道你的市场是谁的？

And it's like, because if they do find it, that's a really, really, really big win.

就像，因为如果他们确实找到了它，那就是一个非常非常巨大的胜利。

Versus I think if you start with the market first, you could potentially get a good win but is it more capped?

相比之下，我认为如果你首先从市场开始，你可能会获得不错的胜利，但它的上限是否更大？

Jen Abel: I don't know, it's just a thought.

Jen Abel：我不知道，这只是一个想法。

I was staring at your grid for so long, I was like, there's something here.

我盯着你的网格看了很久，我就想，这里有东西。

And I kept coming back to those were more like I kept breaking it down to market versus product.

我不断地回到这些更像是我不断地将其分解为市场与产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，我喜欢这个。

I think there's definitely something there.

我认为那里肯定有什么东西。

There's also horizontal versus a very specific problem you're solving.

您正在解决的问题还包括横向问题和非常具体的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so you mentioned clay and you kind of nerd sniped me there of just what tools do you find useful?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以你提到了粘土，你有点书呆子狙击我，你认为哪些工具有用？

And it makes me think about finding leads, which is kind of going backwards through the sales process, but it might be okay, so maybe let's spend time there.

这让我考虑寻找潜在客户，这有点像销售流程的倒退，但可能没问题，所以也许让我们花时间在那里。

Just like what do you recommend to founders to find the good leads?

就像您向创始人推荐什么来寻找好的线索一样？

Glengarry Glen Ross good leads.

格伦加里·格伦·罗斯出色的领导力。

Jen Abel: So I say before you buy any tool, don't even think about tools.

Jen Abel：所以我说，在购买任何工具之前，不要考虑工具。

I feel like people turn everything into this complicated mess with all of the tools that they start integrating.

我觉得人们用他们开始集成的所有工具把一切都变成了复杂的混乱。

And then they're engineers, I get it.

然后他们是工程师，我明白了。

So now they start to engineer these sales tools together and then they blast their market, and now they have 5,000 notes out in one day and their domain takes a hit.

所以现在他们开始一起设计这些销售工具，然后他们轰动了他们的市场，现在他们一天之内就发布了 5,000 条笔记，他们的领域受到了打击。

So I think before you even overthink about the tools right now, can you manually find 30 people that you want to spend 15 to 20 minutes writing a rock solid note to?

所以我认为，在你现在过度考虑工具之前，你能手动找到 30 个你想花 15 到 20 分钟写一篇坚如磐石的笔记的人吗？

Are there 30 people that you are deeply excited to learn from, that you are willing to invest 15 to 20 minutes to write a really thoughtful note?

是否有 30 个人让你非常兴奋地向他们学习，并且愿意花 15 到 20 分钟写一篇真正深思熟虑的笔记？

Let's just start there.

让我们从这里开始吧。

So some questions.

那么一些问题。

One, are they even discoverable?

第一，它们是否可以被发现？

How hard is it to find 30 people?

找30个人有多难？

Jen Abel: What have you noticed across those 30 people?

Jen Abel：您从这 30 个人中注意到了什么？

Are there any interesting insights?

有什么有趣的见解吗？

Maybe it's the size of the team they work on, maybe it's the industry they're in, maybe it's the length of time they've been in their role, maybe it's their previous roles in their career.

也许是他们工作的团队的规模，也许是他们所处的行业，也许是他们担任该职位的时间长短，也许是他们之前在职业生涯中担任的角色。

Are there some commonalities?

有一些共同点吗？

There's always some level of a commonality usually in most cases.

在大多数情况下，通常总是存在某种程度的共性。

Okay, so now you're starting to collect some parameters.

好的，现在您开始收集一些参数。

Just by doing this exercise, you're starting to collect some parameters around who you want to learn from and sell to.

通过做这个练习，你就开始收集一些关于你想向谁学习和向谁推销的参数。

Now if you send out those 30 notes and you wrote them specifically, and you spend good quality of time on it.

现在，如果你发出这 30 张便条，并且你专门写了它们，并且你在上面花费了大量的时间。

And you've hit them on email, you've hit them on LinkedIn, maybe even tried to call them, maybe you've sent them a Twitter DM, pulled out all the stops.

你已经通过电子邮件联系了他们，你已经在 LinkedIn 上联系了他们，甚至可能尝试给他们打电话，也许你已经给他们发了一条 Twitter 私信，竭尽全力。

How many people respond?

有多少人响应？

1, 5, 0?

1、5、0？

Jen Abel: If it's zero, it begs the question, do you now want to do another 30 in a very similar fashion?

Jen Abel：如果为零，这就引出了一个问题，你现在想以非常类似的方式再做 30 次吗？

Do you want to change the messaging a little bit?

您想稍微改变一下消息传递吗？

Now it forces these natural experiments.

现在它迫使这些自然实验。

Or do you want to maybe go after a different role?

或者你想追求不同的角色吗？

So it forces you to answer these questions in a very manual way before you even think about integrating and spending time on tools.

因此，在您考虑集成和花时间在工具上之前，它迫使您以非常手动的方式回答这些问题。

And then you get to a point where it's like, okay, now I'm starting to get some learnings and now I've realized, okay, it's this group of people, I've spoken to maybe two or three, now I want to go out and actually build a campaign to now talk to the next 10 to 15 people in that group.

然后你会发现，好吧，现在我开始学到一些东西，现在我意识到，好吧，就是这群人，我可能已经和两三个人谈过，现在我想出去，实际上发起一场活动，现在与该群体中接下来的 10 到 15 个人交谈。

Truncate this as much as you can because I think people focus so much on volume in the beginning.

尽可能地截断它，因为我认为人们一开始就非常关注数量。

Jen Abel: Even if you're selling down market, mid market, enterprise, volume comes once you've identified it and know the parameters.

Jen Abel：即使您销售的是低端市场、中端市场、企业，一旦您确定了目标并了解了参数，销量就会随之而来。

Parameters then allow you to do really strong enrichment with a clay.

然后，参数允许您使用粘土进行真正强大的富集。

You now know the types of questions to give it.

您现在知道要提出的问题类型了。

If you're not asking it the right questions, these enrichment tools, these sales tools will yield nothing.

如果你没有问正确的问题，这些丰富工具、这些销售工具将不会产生任何结果。

So it all comes back to even before you start your sales call, you need to make sure you're asking the right questions with am I even engaging, or do the people that I want to learn from or sell to, am I even messaging them in the right way?

因此，这一切都回到了甚至在你开始销售电话之前，你需要确保你问了正确的问题，我是否参与其中，或者我想向我学习或向其销售的人，我是否以正确的方式向他们发送消息？

Are they even the right person?

他们是合适的人选吗？

And the only way you can do that is by actually truncating these little experiments.

做到这一点的唯一方法就是实际缩短这些小实验。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how tactical that is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种策略性的做法。

And what I love is even one of your nuances you mentioned is can you even find them?

我喜欢的是你提到的细微差别之一，你能找到它们吗？

This gives you a signal of how are...

这向您发出了一个信号，表明您...

You're going to have to have hundreds of these, thousands of these eventually.

最终你将不得不拥有数百个，甚至数千个。

If 30 is hard or impossible, you're in trouble already.

如果 30 岁很难或不可能，那么你已经有麻烦了。

Jen Abel: Totally.

珍·阿贝尔：完全可以。

And it was funny, I was talking to someone today that said they had a target segment of high net worth individuals that they wanted to go out and serve.

有趣的是，我今天与某人交谈，他说他们的目标群体是高净值人士，他们想出去服务。

I'm like, how do you find those people?

我想，你怎么找到这些人？

I guess when you get to a certain level, your net worth may be public.

我猜当你到了一定程度，你的身家可能就会公开。

I don't know.

我不知道。

That stuff's very hard to have certain parameters that are undiscoverable.

这些东西很难拥有某些不可发现的参数。

And then if they're undiscoverable and it requires you getting on a call to understand if they are a fit, that does impact conversion rates.

然后，如果他们无法被发现，并且需要您打电话来了解他们是否合适，这确实会影响转化率。

Not necessarily in a bad way, but now you need to kind of bring that back into the math equation, which is like, okay, if I speak to 10 people, I know two out of these 10 will be qualified.

不一定是坏方式，但现在你需要将其带回到数学方程式中，就像，好吧，如果我与 10 个人交谈，我知道这 10 个人中的两个将是合格的。

But I don't know which of those two out of 10.

但我不知道这 10 个中的哪两个。

Well, that means you probably need more of those numbers.

嗯，这意味着您可能需要更多这些数字。

Lenny Rachitsky: So to quickly recap a few of the key things that I've written down as we're talking.

Lenny Rachitsky：快速回顾一下我在我们谈话时写下的一些关键内容。

So if you're just trying to figure out who to reach out to, make a list of 30 potential prospects that you think are good fits, that would be excited about what you're building.

因此，如果您只是想弄清楚该联系谁，请列出您认为合适的 30 名潜在客户，他们会对您正在构建的内容感到兴奋。

Spend 15 to 30 minutes writing them each an email.

花 15 到 30 分钟给他们每人写一封电子邮件。

Do these emails have to be really short the way you described previously?

这些电子邮件是否必须像您之前描述的那样非常短？

Jen Abel: I would say the shorter the better, but would you respond to that?

Jen Abel：我想说越短越好，但你对此有何回应？

If you got this email, would you respond it?

如果您收到这封电子邮件，您会回复吗？

Jen Abel: One of a great little tactical test is on Gmail, you can highlight the message and then have it replay it back to you from an audio perspective.

Jen Abel：Gmail 是一项很棒的小战术测试，您可以突出显示该消息，然后让它从音频角度重播给您。

Jen Abel: You'd be shocked how many notes I've changed when it replays it back and I'm like, oh, that sounds really passive-aggressive.

Jen Abel：当它重播时，你会惊讶地发现我改变了多少音符，我想，哦，这听起来真的很被动。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

And so you also shared the structure for how to reach out to folks.

因此，您还分享了如何与人们接触的结构。

So let me just share that again.

让我再次分享一下。

And that applies to this initial email too, but it sounds like as you automate, you want to make it more precise and focused and not...

这也适用于这封最初的电子邮件，但听起来当你自动化时，你想让它更加精确和集中，而不是......

Basically they're not as customized as you start reaching out to more folks.

基本上，当你开始接触更多的人时，它们就不再是定制的了。

Lenny Rachitsky: So start with something, here's why this is relevant to you.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以从某件事开始，这就是为什么这与你相关。

You're looking for salespeople in this market.

您正在这个市场寻找销售人员。

Here's something that's unexpected or surprised, like zero to one salespeople don't exist.

有些事情是出乎意料或令人惊讶的，比如零对一的销售人员并不存在。

Keep it short and then I always forget the last one.

保持简短，然后我总是忘记最后一个。

Jen Abel: You don't even need to talk about the solution.

Jen Abel：你甚至不需要谈论解决方案。

That's the big takeaway, which is if you get any sales email, you get what's the primary focus of that email?

这是最大的收获，如果您收到任何销售电子邮件，您会知道该电子邮件的主要焦点是什么？

It's usually like here's what we do.

通常我们就是这么做的。

But I bet if someone reached out to you with a novel insight and said, I'm really passionate about solving this problem, if it's something you're focused on, you'd probably reply.

但我敢打赌，如果有人向你提出新颖的见解，并说：“我真的很热衷于解决这个问题，如果这是你关注的事情，你可能会回复。”

Lenny Rachitsky: If it's a big problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果这是一个大问题。

If it's like, oh yeah, you're so right, I need this.

如果它就像，哦，是的，你说得太对了，我需要这个。

Jen Abel: The beauty with the American market, and I say this because we do a little bit of work with international startups too, is if something doesn't feel right, people love to complain about it.

Jen Abel：美国市场的美妙之处在于，如果感觉有什么不对劲，人们喜欢抱怨，我这么说是因为我们也与国际初创公司进行了一些合作。

And it's like use that to your advantage.

这就像利用它来为你带来优势。

Get that intel.

获取该情报。

Lenny Rachitsky: A note that I just looked at, that I wrote down, that I think is very important is avoid using "this is better" as your pitch.

Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚看过并写下的一条注释，我认为非常重要的是避免使用“这更好”作为您的宣传。

Lenny Rachitsky: Different.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：不同。

Here's something shocking about what we're doing.

我们正在做的事情令人震惊。

Here's something that'll surprise you.

这里有一些会让你感到惊讶的事情。

Jen Abel: Yeah, or counterintuitive.

Jen Abel：是的，或者说违反直觉。

Exactly.

确切地。

Jen Abel: Yeah, it's interesting.

Jen Abel：是的，这很有趣。

I spoke to a good friend that leads procurement at a massive organization.

我和一位在大型组织领导采购的好朋友交谈过。

And he said to me, he goes, "One of the worst things someone can say to me is we're better than X product.

他对我说，“有人对我说的最糟糕的话之一就是我们比 X 产品更好。

Then I ask them to define that.

然后我请他们定义这一点。

And then I ask them, okay, how do we measure that?

然后我问他们，好吧，我们如何衡量？

And then I say, okay, should we give this company another year to give them this feedback before we make this huge transition and disrupt momentum?" Yeah, better is a dangerous place.

然后我说，好吧，在我们进行这一巨大转变并破坏势头之前，我们是否应该再给这家公司一年的时间来向他们提供反馈？”是啊，危险的地方更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I invest in a bunch of startups and I find it's impossible to get anyone to care if things are good enough with what they got today.

Lenny Rachitsky：我投资了很多初创公司，我发现不可能让任何人关心他们今天所拥有的东西是否足够好。

I'm happy not using the best possible product if my life is okay.

如果我的生活还好的话，我很高兴不使用最好的产品。

And I have so many other things I got to do, I'll just deal with this good enough solution for now.

我还有很多其他事情要做，我现在就处理这个足够好的解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

So we talked about how to figure out who to go after, how to pitch them to get them to want to talk.

所以我们讨论了如何找出该找谁，如何向他们推销以让他们愿意交谈。

The next step I imagine is you're on the phone with them trying to convince them to actually care.

我想下一步是你通过电话试图说服他们真正关心。

What do you do there?

你在那里做什么？

How do you get them to engage further?

如何让他们进一步参与？

Jen Abel: One is you need to be vulnerable.

Jen Abel：一是你需要变得脆弱。

You're an early stage startup, okay.

你是一家早期初创公司，好吧。

The market, we're at a point now where the market is smart.

市场，我们现在正处于市场聪明的时刻。

I always assume that the buyer I'm speaking to is highly educated and knows way more than I do.

我总是认为与我交谈的买家受过高等教育，并且比我懂得更多。

So just have that perception because what I've learned is a lot of the market will play dumb, and you can get yourself caught pretty quickly.

因此，只要有这种看法，因为我了解到很多市场都会表现得很愚蠢，你很快就会陷入困境。

So when you speak to them, I would be very open and honest with where you are.

因此，当你与他们交谈时，我会非常开放和诚实地告诉你你的处境。

Hey, I'm an early stage startup.

嘿，我是一家早期初创公司。

We are deeply passionate about solving this specific problem.

我们对解决这个具体问题充满热情。

We have a lot to learn.

我们有很多东西要学。

Here's how we are thinking about it from a problem priority perspective.

以下是我们如何从问题优先级的角度来思考这个问题。

Can we gain your insight into how this problem is manifesting on your side?

我们能否让您深入了解这个问题在您这边的表现？

And then let them open up.

然后让他们敞开心扉。

Now you have them one, talking about the problem.

现在你们有一个，正在谈论这个问题。

Now you're getting the intel about their perception of the problem, and is it even a problem?

现在您正在了解他们对问题的看法，这是否是一个问题？

When you say you're early stage and there's still a lot to be done, it is easier to be honest.

当你说你还处于早期阶段并且还有很多工作要做时，说实话就更容易了。

Jen Abel: If you tell them you have a fully baked, ready to go product, they're not going to give you honest feedback.

Jen Abel：如果你告诉他们你有一个完全烘焙好的、随时可以使用的产品，他们不会给你诚实的反馈。

It's very hard to say to a founder and look them in the eyes and say, hey, we built this product, can I show you what it is?

很难对创始人说，看着他们的眼睛说，嘿，我们开发了这个产品，我可以向你展示它是什么吗？

You're just going to get someone that's going to say, oh, this is great, this is wonderful.

你只会听到有人说，哦，这太棒了，这太棒了。

But when you're vulnerable and when you tell them it's not fully built yet, even if it is, you will get more raw and honest feedback.

但是，当你很脆弱，当你告诉他们它还没有完全建成时，即使它已经建成，你也会得到更多原始和诚实的反馈。

Because it is easier to tell someone, hey, before you make this mistake, I actually don't care about that.

因为在你犯这个错误之前告诉别人更容易，嘿，我实际上并不关心这一点。

If you've already built it, they're not going to give you that feedback.

如果你已经构建了它，他们不会给你反馈。

So the further you suggest you are, you're actually going to hamstring a lot of the intel, hamstring yourself on gaining a lot of the intel.

所以你建议你走得越远，你实际上就会限制很多情报，限制你自己获得大量情报。

So that's one counterintuitive thing that I think a lot of founders don't realize.

所以这是一件违反直觉的事情，我认为很多创始人都没有意识到。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Paragon, the developer platform for building native customer-facing integrations with third-party apps.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Paragon 为您带来，Paragon 是一个开发者平台，用于构建与第三方应用程序的本机面向客户的集成。

Our native integrations on your product roadmap, whether it's to ingest context from your user's external data and documents, or to sync data and automate tasks across your user's other apps, integrations are mission-critical for B2B software products today.

我们在您的产品路线图上的本机集成，无论是从用户的外部数据和文档中获取上下文，还是在用户的其他应用程序之间同步数据和自动执行任务，集成对于当今的 B2B 软件产品来说都是至关重要的。

But building these integrations in-house cost an average of three months of engineering according to the 2024 state of integration survey, which results in difficult roadmap trade-offs.

但根据 2024 年集成状况调查，内部构建这些集成平均需要三个月的工程时间，这导致路线图权衡困难。

This is why engineering teams at Copy AI, AI21, and over 100 other B2B SaaS companies use Paragon, so they can focus their efforts on core product features, not integrations.

这就是 Copy AI、AI21 和其他 100 多家 B2B SaaS 公司的工程团队使用 Paragon 的原因，这样他们就可以将精力集中在核心产品功能上，而不是集成上。

The results, they've shipped integrations seven times faster, all while avoiding the never-ending maintenance that comes with rolling your own integrations.

结果，他们的集成速度提高了七倍，同时避免了滚动您自己的集成带来的无休止的维护。

Visit UseParagon.com/Lenny to see how Paragon can help you accelerate your products integration roadmap today, and get $1,000 in credit on their pro and enterprise plans.

请访问 UseParagon.com/Lenny，了解 Paragon 如何帮助您加快产品集成路线图，并通过其专业版和企业版计划获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's use P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com.

这就是使用 P-A-R-A-G-O-N . com。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I had April Dunford on the podcast a while ago.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以不久前我在播客上邀请了 April Dunford。

I don't know if-

我不知道是否-

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And her last book, it actually has the opposite advice, but I think I know why, which is she focuses on later stage companies and her advice is the buyer.

她的上一本书实际上有相反的建议，但我想我知道为什么，这是她专注于后期公司，她的建议是买家。

She has this really interesting insight that it's harder to buy software now than to sell it, because there's so much to consider and your job is on the line if you make a mistake.

她有一个非常有趣的见解，即现在购买软件比出售软件更难，因为需要考虑的事情太多，如果您犯了错误，您的工作就会受到威胁。

It's easier just to be like, forget it, I'm just going to go with what we have today.

更容易的是，忘记它，我只是继续我们今天所拥有的。

I don't want to put my ass on the line for buying this new thing that someone's trying.

我不想为了买别人正在尝试的新东西而冒着风险。

And so her advice is you actually have to educate the buyer on the market and here's what's happening.

所以她的建议是，你实际上必须对买家进行市场教育，这就是正在发生的事情。

Here's where things are going, and here's why I think this is the future.

这就是事情的发展方向，这就是为什么我认为这就是未来。

But I think again, I think that's focusing on later stage stuff.

但我又想了想，我认为这是关注后期的事情。

Jen Abel: A hundred percent.

珍·阿贝尔：百分之一百。

And you raised such a good point, Lenny, which is late stage sales and early stage sales are very, very different.

莱尼，你提出了一个很好的观点，即后期销售和早期销售非常非常不同。

And I think that's where a lot of early stage founders get tripped up as they're taking late stage sales advice, usually coming from an investor.

我认为这就是很多早期创始人在接受后期销售建议（通常来自投资者）时被绊倒的地方。

Or they've maybe hired a salesperson that's focused on more mature sales.

或者他们可能聘请了一位专注于更成熟销售的销售人员。

But I think she's spot on.

但我认为她很到位。

Buying is just as hard, if not harder, than selling right now.

现在购买与出售一样困难，甚至更难。

Because who wants to make a mistake and also who wants to go through switching costs?

因为谁愿意犯错误，谁愿意承受转换成本？

Oh, it's so painful.

哦，太痛苦了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I think the other really important point here that you're making is that part of this initial sales experience of founder led sales is not sell as much as you can.

我认为您在这里提出的另一个非常重要的观点是，创始人主导销售的初始销售体验的一部分并不是尽可能多地销售。

It's to learn what people want.

这是为了了解人们想要什么。

And so I love that you're sharing here's how to get the best possible feedback, not necessarily close the most deals.

所以我很高兴您在这里分享如何获得尽可能最好的反馈，而不一定是完成最多的交易。

Jen Abel: Totally.

珍·阿贝尔：完全可以。

And founder led sales is not about revenue on day one.

创始人领导的销售与第一天的收入无关。

It is about learning as fast as humanly possible to get to that pulse, so that you can earn the right to sell.

这是关于尽可能快地学习以掌握这种脉搏，以便您可以获得销售权。

There's this concept that I talk about, which is you're going out to run sales to collect the research, which is what founder led sales is.

我谈到的一个概念是，你要出去进行销售以收集研究成果，这就是创始人领导的销售。

And then you have sales for revenue, which is that post founder led sales stage.

然后你就有销售收入，这是后创始人领导的销售阶段。

Lenny Rachitsky: And your milestone that you suggested of how far to take founder led sales, you said around a million ARR, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：您建议将创始人主导的销售额提升到什么程度，这是您的里程碑，您说大约 100 万 ARR，对吧？

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

I think it's about, some people say 500, some people say a million.

我想大约是，有人说500，有人说100万。

I think if you get to 500K really, really fast, then I think absolutely you can move out of it.

我认为如果你真的非常快地达到 500K，那么我认为你绝对可以摆脱它。

If you get to 500K really, really, really slow, you might not want to get out of it right away.

如果你达到 500K 的速度非常非常慢，你可能不想立即摆脱它。

You haven't reached that velocity point yet.

你还没有达到那个速度点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I have a post that we'll link to that has actually numbers and when all these big startups move from founder led sales.

我有一篇文章，我们将链接到该文章，其中包含实际数字，以及当所有这些大型初创公司从创始人主导的销售转向时。

It's in that same series about product market fit.

这是关于产品市场契合度的同一系列。

There's two stories this makes me think of I'll share real quick.

有两个故事让我想起我会很快分享。

One is Sprig.

其一是小枝。

They shared a story of first round capital at their first round and their partner there is just like, we will not let you hire a salesperson until you hit a million ARR.

他们在第一轮分享了第一轮资本的故事，他们的合作伙伴就像是，在你达到 100 万 ARR 之前我们不会让你雇佣销售人员。

We're going to help you.

我们会帮助你。

We're going to have salespeople helping you through it, but we're not going to let you hire someone.

我们将让销售人员帮助您解决这个问题，但我们不会让您雇用某人。

And he was really happy about that.

他对此感到非常高兴。

The other is Zip, which just raised a $2.3 billion valuation, a procurement company that I was lucky to be an investor in.

另一个是Zip，它刚刚筹集了23亿美元的估值，这是我有幸成为其投资者的一家采购公司。

And their first founder led sales motion was they just reached out on LinkedIn to heads of procurement, and just leaned into what you're saving more, which is we just want your advice on this product that we're building.

他们的第一个创始人主导的销售动议是，他们刚刚在 LinkedIn 上联系了采购主管，并了解了您可以节省更多的费用，即我们只是希望您对我们正在开发的这款产品提出建议。

Just tell us what problems you have.

请告诉我们您有什么问题。

It was very advice oriented versus we want to sell you this thing.

这是非常以建议为导向的，而不是我们想卖给你这个东西。

Jen Abel: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Jen Abel：是的，不，绝对。

I have this theory that maybe you shouldn't hire any salespeople until series A, right?

我有这样的理论：也许在 A 轮融资之前你不应该雇佣任何销售人员，对吗？

Because seed is all about experimentation and proving out that experiment, and then obviously series A is about exploiting that learning.

因为种子就是关于实验并证明实验的结果，显然 A 系列就是关于利用这种学习。

But I see so many people, I mean hiring for early stage sales is the odds are actually more against you than trying to get your next round of funding.

但我看到很多人，我的意思是，招聘早期销售人员的可能性实际上比试图获得下一轮融资更不利。

Because it's truly, truly such a counterintuitive stage.

因为这确实是一个违反直觉的阶段。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

Okay, so I kind of took us on a whole tangent.

好吧，我有点把我们带到了完全切线的位置。

You were sharing advice on how to get someone excited.

您正在分享如何让某人兴奋的建议。

So the first is when you're engaging, you're talking to the prospect and company ABC.

因此，第一是当您参与时，您正在与潜在客户和公司 ABC 交谈。

Your advice is be very honest and vulnerable about your stage.

你的建议是对你的舞台要非常诚实和脆弱。

Tell them you're early stage.

告诉他们你还处于早期阶段。

You're building this thing.

你正在建造这个东西。

You're deeply passionate about this problem.

您对这个问题充满热情。

Here's what we're trying to do, here's our priority problem perspective, and where we're focusing, and kind of get their feedback on your approach.

这是我们正在尝试做的事情，这是我们的优先问题观点，也是我们关注的重点，并获取他们对您的方法的反馈。

Cool.

凉爽的。

You were going to go to the next tip and I took us off course.

你本来要转到下一个提示，但我让我们偏离了路线。

Jen Abel: Testing the questions to ask.

Jen Abel：测试要问的问题。

Where is that aha unlock for you?

你的啊哈解锁在哪里？

But more importantly, where's that aha moment unlocked for them?

但更重要的是，他们的顿悟时刻在哪里？

Because when they start getting their gears churning in their head about, and this is the beauty about not having a product and not showing them anything, they're visualizing in their head now.

因为当他们开始让自己的齿轮在脑海中转动时，这就是没有产品并且不向他们展示任何东西的美妙之处，他们现在正在头脑中进行想象。

This is a really powerful thing, which is like, so tell me how this looks in your head?

这是一个非常强大的东西，所以告诉我这在你的脑海中看起来如何？

How are you seeing this?

你怎么看这个？

And they're like, I don't know if I can see it.

他们就像，我不知道我是否能看到它。

And I'm like, great, we'll show you that.

我想，太好了，我们会向你展示这一点。

Great insight to know by the way.

顺便说一下，很有洞察力。

Or so I think this is how, I guess this is how it would work.

或者说，我认为这就是它的运作方式，我想这就是它的运作方式。

Walk me through what's living in your head right now.

让我了解一下你现在脑子里想的是什么。

You pick up on so much and then all of a sudden they're like, wait a second, we've tried solving for this and it's still not solved for.

你了解了这么多，然后突然他们会说，等一下，我们已经尝试解决这个问题，但仍然没有解决。

Or you know what?

或者你知道什么吗？

We hired someone last year to manage this.

我们去年雇了一个人来管理这个问题。

Great understanding.

很好的理解。

Is it being measured?

正在测量吗？

Is it being managed and have they tried to solve for it?

它是否得到管理并且他们是否尝试解决它？

The leading indicators that you're onto something here.

表明您正在做某事的领先指标。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this thread because this is what everyone's always like, how do I know if I product market fit?

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个话题，因为这是每个人都喜欢的，我怎么知道我的产品是否适合市场？

There's these signals that you're talking about of signs that there's something here.

你所说的这些信号表明这里有东西。

Like a big enough pain point where they're excited to basically they want to pay for it, they will pay to solve a problem.

就像一个足够大的痛点，他们很兴奋，基本上他们想为此付费，他们会付费来解决问题。

So maybe just again, say the things you notice that are signs like, okay, you have something here.

所以也许再一次，说出你注意到的事情，比如，好吧，你这里有东西。

Jen Abel: So I think the first is it has to be a growing and widening problem.

Jen Abel：所以我认为首先它必须是一个日益严重和扩大的问题。

No one's going to spend time fixing a pretty fixed problem, because it's not necessarily really a priority anymore.

没有人会花时间去解决一个已经解决的问题，因为它不再一定是真正的优先事项。

It's maybe a pain in the butt, but it's not a priority if it's not growing or widening.

这可能是一种痛苦，但如果它没有增长或扩大，那就不是优先考虑的事情。

So gate check one is like, what is the implication?

那么门检查就像这样，这意味着什么？

Are you measuring?

你在测量吗？

Are you managing this problem today?

今天你解决这个问题了吗？

Yes or no?

是还是不是？

If they don't know, great to know.

如果他们不知道，很高兴知道。

If they said no, okay, move on to the next.

如果他们说不，好吧，继续下一步。

That's pretty powerful.

那是相当强大的。

No, we're not measuring or managing this.

不，我们不会衡量或管理这一点。

Okay, there's probably not much there.

好吧，那里可能没有太多。

If it is being measured or managed, then the next question you want to get into is how have you tried to solve for it?

如果正在对其进行衡量或管理，那么您要解决的下一个问题是您如何尝试解决它？

Is it through that head count that you just hired?

是根据您刚刚雇用的人数计算的吗？

Is it through another tool?

是通过其他工具吗？

Is it just still an open gap because nothing exists yet to solve it?

它是否仍然是一个开放的差距，因为还没有任何东西可以解决它？

Just understand their maturity around how they've tried to plug it.

只要了解他们如何尝试解决问题就足够成熟了。

These are all that make the secret moments in intel to close that gap.

这些都是英特尔缩小这一差距的秘密时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And essentially it's showing you that there's a pain here that they're paying attention to and are trying to solve.

从本质上讲，它向您展示了他们正在关注并试图解决的痛点。

Jen Abel: And what you're psychologically doing is now you're flipping them into a buyer where they're like, wait a second, hold on.

Jen Abel：你在心理上所做的就是把他们变成买家，他们会说，等一下，坚持一下。

I need to bring on so-and-so on the next call, they also think that this is not good enough.

我需要在下次通话中带上某某，他们也认为这不够好。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's funny because that's exactly what Wiz noticed, is they moved from people being like, oh, this is cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，因为这正是 Wiz 注意到的，他们是从人们的“哦，这很酷”的态度中转变过来的。

I like it, I like it.

我喜欢它，我喜欢它。

To, okay, I'm going to pull in this person.

好吧，我要把这个人拉进来。

I'm going to pull in this person to talk about it and make sure we're...

我要找这个人来谈谈这件事，并确保我们……

And they were pulling in other people exactly as you described it, because they wanted to move forward on this thing.

正如你所描述的那样，他们正在拉拢其他人，因为他们想在这件事上取得进展。

Jen Abel: Absolutely.

珍·阿贝尔：当然。

And that's when you know there's some momentum behind it, which is when they're bringing in other colleagues.

当你知道这背后有一些动力时，也就是当他们引入其他同事时。

Whether it be the potential users, if you're reaching out to the executive, or the users like, hey, I actually want to bring my boss on to the next call.

无论是潜在用户，如果你要联系高管，还是用户喜欢，嘿，我实际上想让我的老板参加下一次通话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good sign.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好兆头。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Anything else along these lines of how to get someone excited slash understand if there's going to be pull there?

关于如何让某人兴奋斜线了解是否会有拉力，还有其他类似的事情吗？

Jen Abel: I guess the one thing is please, please, please do not ask questions like what keeps you up at night?

Jen Abel：我想有一件事是请不要问诸如什么让你彻夜难眠之类的问题？

If you had a magic wand, what are your pain points today?

如果你有一根魔杖，你今天的痛点是什么？

I can guarantee you that answer changes every single day.

我可以向你保证答案每天都在变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

Is there any tip for how to end one of these calls, as someone that's never done sales is like-

有没有关于如何结束这些电话的任何提示，因为从未做过销售的人就像-

Jen Abel: Get the second call booked on the first call.

Jen Abel：在第一次通话中预订第二次通话。

Jen Abel: Pull up calendars.

Jen Abel：打开日历。

Look at calendars.

看看日历。

Who else should be invited?

还应该邀请谁？

It's just a natural evolution to ending the call.

结束通话只是一个自然的过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So that's in 30 minutes though, right?

那么 30 分钟后就到了，对吗？

Jen Abel: And if they say, ah, I'll email you.

Jen Abel：如果他们说，啊，我会给你发电子邮件。

Jen Abel: That's also kind of a leading indicator.

Jen Abel：这也是一个领先指标。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So do you recommend not getting off the call, trying to avoid that, or is it just-

Lenny Rachitsky：那么你是否建议不要挂断电话，尽量避免这种情况，或者只是-

Jen Abel: If they won't give you time on the calendar, you could say, listen, great.

Jen Abel：如果他们不在日历上给你时间，你可以说，听着，太好了。

Feel free to email me.

请随时给我发电子邮件。

Maybe they're just being honest and they don't have their calendar available, but nine times out of 10, it's usually I don't have the heart to tell you I'm not interested.

也许他们只是说实话，而且他们没有可用的日历，但十有八九，通常我不忍心告诉你我不感兴趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's hard.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，这很难。

It's hard to tell people you're not interested.

很难告诉别人你不感兴趣。

Very cool.

非常酷。

Okay.

好的。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

Okay, so the next step, if I remember correctly, is kind of co-authoring and co...

好吧，如果我没记错的话，下一步就是共同创作和合作……

Jen Abel: In the early, early days, one of the biggest ways you can get folks excited is it feels like it's going to be built specifically for them.

Jen Abel：在早期，让人们兴奋的最大方式之一就是感觉它是专门为他们建造的。

The power of specificity, the power of being extremely focused.

专一的力量，极度专注的力量。

With that, you can literally turn a customer into a guide by asking them to co-author the scope.

这样，您就可以通过要求客户共同创作范围来将他们转变为指南。

The scope of work.

工作范围。

The co-authorship piece is important for two reasons.

合着文章之所以重要有两个原因。

It helps you understand where they're on their biomaturity.

它可以帮助您了解它们的生物成熟度。

Let me explain.

让我解释一下。

If they do not have an existing process or strategy to solve X problem, they can't buy a technology yet, which means you need to sell them.

如果他们没有现有的流程或策略来解决 X 问题，他们还无法购买技术，这意味着你需要出售他们。

And this is why I go back to you need to sell them some form of a service, right?

这就是为什么我回到你需要向他们出售某种形式的服务的原因，对吗？

Why?

为什么？

You want to be the one in there educating.

你想成为那里的教育者。

You also want to get the logo.

您还想获得徽标。

You also want to show the revenue.

您还想显示收入。

While it's not recurring revenue, it still shows intent.

虽然这不是经常性收入，但它仍然显示出意图。

Jen Abel: And I think that that's really important.

Jen Abel：我认为这非常重要。

Every founder I speak to is like, well, my investor really doesn't want service-based revenue.

我采访过的每一位创始人都说，我的投资者真的不想要基于服务的收入。

That's fine.

没关系。

But then you can also tell your investor, great, should I wait 18 months to when they're ready to buy a solution, and be the one that's not the one selling them because someone else educated them?

但你也可以告诉你的投资者，太好了，我是否应该等待 18 个月，直到他们准备好购买解决方案，并且成为不是因为其他人教育了他们而出售它们的人？

These are all of the implications of waiting.

这些都是等待的影响。

So yes, is service-based revenue great?

那么，是的，基于服务的收入很棒吗？

No, we all know why it's not great.

不，我们都知道为什么它不太好。

But it's great in the sense that it shows intent.

但从它表现出意图的意义上来说，它很棒。

It's great in the sense that you can call them a customer.

从某种意义上说，这很棒，您可以称他们为客户。

It's great in the sense that now you can use their logo.

从某种意义上说，现在您可以使用他们的徽标，这真是太棒了。

And it's great in the sense because you are getting paid to educate them.

从某种意义上说，这很棒，因为你可以通过教育他们获得报酬。

You are getting paid to help them design their process.

您可以通过帮助他们设计流程来获得报酬。

This is where all the power lives.

这是所有力量的所在。

And this is why so many AI startups a year and two years ago were going in on services contracts, because they wanted to set the mindset with the buyer around what this would look like.

这就是为什么一年和两年前有这么多人工智能初创公司签订服务合同的原因，因为他们希望与买家就这将是什么样子建立心态。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything you recommend to time box contain the services piece?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于包含服务部分的时间盒，您有什么建议吗？

Because I know a lot of companies-

因为我认识很多公司——

Jen Abel: Yes, such a great point, Lenny.

Jen Abel：是的，这是一个很好的观点，Lenny。

You absolutely need to time box this.

你绝对需要对此进行计时。

I would time box it as 90 days and then what you can say in the next 90 days, we'll scope where we are and what you need.

我将时间限制为 90 天，然后您可以在接下来的 90 天内说些什么，我们将确定我们的情况以及您的需求。

Scoping out more than 90 days, listen, so much is going to change.

回顾这 90 多天的时间，听着，将会发生很多变化。

You might also not want to do it anymore, so you don't want to lock yourself up.

你可能也不想再这样做了，所以你不想把自己锁起来。

So I would look at 90 day increments.

所以我会考虑 90 天的增量。

A specific example.

一个具体的例子。

We had a founder that my colleague was working with, and they were selling a very specific technology to a non-traditional...

我们有一位与我的同事一起工作的创始人，他们正在向非传统......

Sorry, a very traditional industry.

抱歉，这是一个非常传统的行业。

I don't want to be two bleeding with what it is, but a very traditional industry that's not used to working with startups, or necessarily plugging in a new technology right away.

我不想成为一个非常传统的行业，不习惯与初创公司合作，或者不一定立即插入新技术。

And they were very honest.

他们非常诚实。

They said, listen, we haven't changed vendors or partners in over five or six years.

他们说，听着，我们已经五六年没有更换供应商或合作伙伴了。

Jen Abel: I actually don't even know how we would do that today.

Jen Abel：实际上我什至不知道今天我们该怎么做。

Could you come in and explain to us, understanding where our workflow is and how we would integrate this, before we even consider the technology?

在我们考虑技术之前，您能否进来向我们解释一下，了解我们的工作流程在哪里以及我们如何整合它？

Which we did.

我们做到了。

We got paid a nominal amount, but we're now a customer and now we get to set the stage for how they think about this.

我们得到了象征性的报酬，但我们现在是客户，现在我们可以为他们如何看待这个问题奠定基础。

And then they won the technology contract.

然后他们赢得了技术合同。

But everyone is so focused on selling the technology really, really, really quickly.

但每个人都非常专注于快速、快速地销售技术。

That works in markets that know how to buy that technology, have a process in place, have a strategy in place, have an implementation team in place.

这适用于知道如何购买该技术、制定流程、制定战略、建立实施团队的市场。

Jen Abel: If it's a new technology like AI right now, they need a strategy and process like who's the human in the loop?

Jen Abel：如果现在是像人工智能这样的新技术，他们需要一个策略和流程，比如谁是循环中的人？

Is it them or is it you?

是他们还是你？

How do we measure success?

我们如何衡量成功？

What does success look like?

成功是什么样的？

What risks should we be aware of?

我们应该注意哪些风险？

Our legal team's not even aware of all these risks.

我们的法律团队甚至没有意识到所有这些风险。

You want to be careful because legal can immediately, and procurement, can shut these things down if it seems too novel, where it's foreign versus they're so used to buying services, especially at market.

你要小心，因为法律可以立即关闭这些东西，如果它看起来太新奇，采购可以关闭这些东西，因为它是外国的，而他们习惯于购买服务，尤其是在市场上。

It's their largest budget line item.

这是他们最大的预算项目。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it's interesting because most founders are very afraid of moving into services.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，因为大多数创始人都非常害怕进入服务业。

I hadn't heard this advice before.

我以前没有听过这个建议。

Jen Abel: Probably going to get slapped for saying all this stuff, by the way.

Jen Abel：顺便说一下，可能会因为说了这些话而被打耳光。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, so along those lines, what percentage of companies that you've worked with or see do that or have to do that step?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，按照这些思路，您合作过或见过的公司中有多少比例会这样做或必须这样做？

Jen Abel: This is going to be a shocking step.

Jen Abel：这将是令人震惊的一步。

So I would 40 to 50% have to sell some form of service before they can sell a technology.

因此，我认为 40% 到 50% 的人必须先销售某种形式的服务，然后才能销售技术。

Jen Abel: A B2B SaaS.

Jen Abel：B2B SaaS。

And this, again, this is specifically more top-down sales.

再说一遍，这是更具体的自上而下的销售。

But yeah, because the user and the buyer are different, which means there's user value, there's buyer value, there's all different players, there's procurement you have to go through.

但是，是的，因为用户和买家是不同的，这意味着有用户价值，有买家价值，有不同的参与者，有你必须经历的采购。

But yeah.

但是是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: And just to make it even clearer, what's an example of a service that you've seen company offer in a step?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了更清楚地说明这一点，您看到公司提供的服务的一个例子是什么？

Jen Abel: So I've seen, hey, can you come in and actually help me pitch this, design a custom pitch to my boss as to why we should do this today?

Jen Abel：所以我已经看到，嘿，你能进来帮我推销这个，为我的老板设计一个定制的推销，说明为什么我们今天应该这样做吗？

And we literally got paid to build a sales pitch.

我们实际上是通过推销来获得报酬的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it's not necessarily providing a service.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以它不一定是提供服务。

It could be just helping them sell this.

这可能只是帮助他们销售这个。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

It could be helping them sell in a way that makes you...

它可能会帮助他们以一种让你……的方式进行销售。

You need to get a lot more context on their business.

您需要了解更多有关他们业务的背景信息。

It can also be, hey, we haven't actually thought about a process for how we can actually deploy something like this.

也可能是，嘿，我们实际上还没有考虑过如何实际部署这样的东西的过程。

We're currently using this technology, which we want to change from.

我们目前正在使用这项技术，我们希望对其进行更改。

You've kind of hit this at the right time.

你在正确的时间击中了这一点。

How would we implement or how is it best to integrate with this tool?

我们将如何实施或者如何最好地与该工具集成？

Can we get both of you guys in a room to map this out?

我们可以让你们俩在一个房间里制定计划吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So it's like consultants almost, like coming in to help you solve this problem.

所以这几乎就像顾问一样，进来帮助你解决这个问题。

Jen Abel: It's a great point.

Jen Abel：这是一个很好的观点。

It's consulting them towards the acquisition of the product.

它正在就购买该产品向他们进行咨询。

It's not consulting as one-off consulting.

它不是一次性咨询。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

And they know that obviously you're biased, but they also want the problem solved.

他们知道你显然有偏见，但他们也希望问题得到解决。

And they're like, great, you're going to help us solve this problem, because it's on my plate and I need your help convincing leadership that this is-

他们说，太好了，你会帮助我们解决这个问题，因为这是我的任务，我需要你的帮助来说服领导层，这是-

Jen Abel: And I need to craft the storyline as to why we need to do it anyway, so I will pay you to do it, but here's the format it needs to be in.

Jen Abel：我需要精心设计故事情节来说明为什么我们无论如何都需要这样做，所以我会付钱给你去做，但这是它需要采用的格式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Fascinating.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：令人着迷。

Wow.

哇。

Okay.

好的。

Anything else along those lines?

还有其他类似的事情吗？

Jen Abel: And then of course, if you're in a position to actually sell the technology, because the market is able to acquire and adopt it and not have to create a new strategy or process, then obviously sell the technology.

Jen Abel：当然，如果你能够实际出售该技术，因为市场能够获取并采用它，而不必创建新的策略或流程，那么显然可以出售该技术。

You don't need to be selling services.

您不需要销售服务。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想尽快回来。

The previous call, I wrote this note down as you were talking.

上次通话时，我在您讲话时写下了这张便条。

You recommended not doing a demo and just talking about it broadly.

您建议不要做演示，而只是广泛地谈论它。

Jen Abel: On the first call.

Jen Abel：在第一次通话时。

Yeah.

是的。

On the first call, my fundamental belief is that the demo is a bit of the only carry you control in the sales process, right?

在第一次通话时，我的基本信念是演示是您在销售过程中唯一可以控制的，对吧？

Once they see it, it's kind of like pitching an investor.

一旦他们看到它，这有点像向投资者推销。

Once they take a look under the hood, that dreaminess in their eyes, they're like, oh, I saw it.

一旦他们看到引擎盖下面的情况，他们眼中的梦幻般的感觉，他们就会说，哦，我看到了。

So leave them wanting more.

所以让他们想要更多。

And the demo is that, leave them wanting more.

而演示就是让他们想要更多。

Even when you do a demo, don't demo everything.

即使您进行演示，也不要演示所有内容。

Leave it for a second call.

留待第二次通话。

Let them invest a lot of time in you.

让他们在你身上投入很多时间。

Again, if it's qualified.

再说一遍，如果合格的话。

Preface that, if it's qualified.

前言，如果合格的话。

But everyone races through the sales process like let's do a demo call as quickly as humanly possible.

但每个人都在快速完成销售流程，就像让我们尽快进行演示通话一样。

Jen Abel: Yes, that is important down market.

Jen Abel：是的，这对下游市场很重要。

That is important if you're selling a $3,000 tool, you absolutely want to be demoing as fast as humanly possible because it's a high-volume game.

如果您销售的是 3,000 美元的工具，这一点很重要，您绝对希望尽可能快地进行演示，因为这是一款大容量游戏。

Upmarket, when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, you want to slow that down as fast as possible.

在高端市场，当您谈论数十万美元时，您希望尽快放慢速度。

Because you want to, one, make sure all of the right people are in the room.

因为您想要，第一，确保所有合适的人都在房间里。

As soon as there's one lead on this, and if it requires other people involved, it doesn't feel like anyone else's baby.

一旦有一个线索，并且需要其他人参与，它就不会感觉像是其他人的孩子。

So you want it to make it feel like the group's baby versus this one individual's baby because it's very quick.

所以你希望它让人感觉像是团队的婴儿与个人的婴儿，因为它非常快。

Someone can easily say, I'd rather use this tool.

有人可以很容易地说，我宁愿使用这个工具。

And then there's this stalemate of nothing happens.

然后就陷入了僵局，什么也没有发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to maybe reiterate, so far we've talked about figure out who to talk to, pitching them on talking to you, then having that first conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：重申一下，到目前为止，我们已经讨论过要与谁交谈，让他们与你交谈，然后进行第一次对话。

Maybe there's another conversation in there to get them excited.

也许那里还有另一场谈话让他们兴奋。

And then there's just getting them past the finish line, keeping everyone aligned.

然后就是让他们冲过终点线，让每个人保持一致。

Is that roughly the next step or how should we think about this?

这大致是下一步还是我们应该如何考虑这个问题？

Jen Abel: Yeah, so if you are selling upmarket and you now need to go to procurement, who is the group involved in the bot.

Jen Abel：是的，如果你销售的是高端产品，现在需要去采购，那么参与机器人的团队是谁。

They're the professional buyers.

他们是专业买家。

Procurement is a very interesting function.

采购是一个非常有趣的功能。

They are very smart, very, very smart.

他们非常聪明，非常非常聪明。

They do this for a living.

他们这样做是为了谋生。

They are professional buyers.

他们是专业买家。

So there's a couple things that you need to be aware of.

因此，您需要注意以下几点。

You need to sell them as well.

您还需要出售它们。

You need to really make this sound...

你需要真正发出这个声音......

Don't over complicate it.

不要让事情变得过于复杂。

Don't add in jargon.

不要添加行话。

Make it feel like, okay, I can wrap my head around this.

让它感觉，好吧，我可以解决这个问题。

The second piece is it's got to feel different from anything else out there.

第二点是它必须给人与其他任何东西不同的感觉。

Because the professional buyer, it's much easier to say, wait a second, we have these 17 other preferred vendors that do similar ish work.

因为专业买家更容易说，等一下，我们还有其他 17 家首选供应商从事类似的工作。

Why don't you just go use one of them?

你为什么不去使用其中之一呢？

Because, oh, by the time this gets through procurement, it could be another three to four months.

因为，哦，当这个通过采购时，可能还需要三到四个月。

Jen Abel: I've seen deals die on the vine because procurement actually suggested they go use another vendor in the system, that this buyer wasn't even aware of, because they didn't differentiate.

Jen Abel：我见过一些交易半途而废，因为采购实际上建议他们使用系统中的另一个供应商，而这个买家甚至没有意识到这一点，因为他们没有区分。

It didn't feel different.

感觉没什么不同。

It just felt slightly better.

只是感觉好一点了。

That's how it was positioned.

这就是它的定位。

The third piece is when you get to procurement, you're going to have to do all the work.

第三部分是当您进行采购时，您将必须完成所有工作。

Make their job easy.

让他们的工作变得轻松。

You are probably a very small piece into the very large deals that a lot of these people buy.

在许多人购买的非常大的交易中，您可能只是很小的一部分。

So you can get easily sidelined just because you're just a small buy.

所以你很容易因为只买了一小部分而被边缘化。

So do the work for them.

所以为他们做工作。

Literally say, I want to make this as easy as possible for you.

从字面上说，我想让这对你来说尽可能简单。

Give me the forms that you need to fill out.

给我您需要填写的表格。

I'll fill them out for you, and you can do it yourself.

我给你填写，你可以自己填写。

You can edit them.

您可以编辑它们。

Do the lift for them.

为他们做电梯。

If you don't, it's so easy for it to just go there and die.

如果你不这样做，它很容易就去那里死掉。

Jen Abel: Another piece that's important with procurement is explaining exactly what you do and don't do.

Jen Abel：采购中另一个重要的部分是准确解释你做什么和不做什么。

Because if you say you do a bunch of things and they can't really place you, they're going to send you to the kitchen sink of contracting an MSA, which is going to ask you for $5 million in an insurance policy and all sorts of other things.

因为如果你说你做了很多事情，而他们无法真正安置你，他们就会把你送到签订 MSA 的厨房水槽，这将要求你支付 500 万美元的保险单和各种其他费用。

And the ability to look at your book at any point in time.

并且能够随时查看您的书。

And the reason they did that is because they can't classify you.

他们这样做的原因是因为他们无法对你进行分类。

So the easiest thing to do is classify you as high risk.

因此，最简单的方法就是将您归类为高风险。

So make it easy for them, make it simplified.

因此，让他们变得简单，让事情变得简单。

You can also truncate your contracts, meaning let's say IT is maybe, and you want to ask this, how long does it take to get through IT due diligence?

你也可以缩短你的合同，也就是说IT可能是，你想问一下，通过IT尽职调查需要多长时间？

They might say, oh, it's a 90-day backup, it's a 60-day backup, it's a 30-day backup.

他们可能会说，哦，这是 90 天的备份，这是 60 天的备份，这是 30 天的备份。

Jen Abel: There's no backup.

Jen Abel：没有备份。

If there's a backup, you also don't want it to die and you want it to give an incentive.

如果有备份，您也不希望它消亡，并且希望它能够提供激励。

So this is when you want to truncate contracts to a technology contract and a service contract.

因此，这就是您想要将合同截断为技术合同和服务合同的时候。

Service contract allows you to onboard them, get them prepped, come in and educate all of the users about what they're about to go through.

服务合同允许您加入他们，让他们做好准备，进来并向所有用户介绍他们将要经历的事情。

So that then there's an incentive to get that technology piece through.

这样就有动力去完成这项技术。

There's all these little things to think about, and I think everyone...

有所有这些小事情需要考虑，我认为每个人......

Getting to procurement is also creative.

进行采购也很有创意。

And knowing who you're dealing with and how to make their job as easy as humanly possible.

并了解您正在与谁打交道以及如何使他们的工作尽可能轻松。

Because what you said and what April said is spot on, which is buying is just as hard as selling.

因为你所说的和阿普里尔所说的都是对的，那就是买入和卖出一样困难。

Lenny Rachitsky: As I'm hearing you describe this, I feel like we might be discouraging people from selling because this feels very not fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我听到你描述这一点时，我觉得我们可能会阻止人们出售，因为这感觉非常不有趣。

All these steps, all these procurement work, anything you can say to get people to feel like, okay, this is worth it?

所有这些步骤，所有这些采购工作，你可以说任何让人们觉得，好吧，这是值得的吗？

Jen Abel: Yes, I can get people very excited by this.

Jen Abel：是的，我可以让人们对此感到非常兴奋。

Once you are in, you are in.

一旦你进去了，你就进去了。

Once you are in, you are now a preferred vendor.

一旦您加入，您现在就是首选供应商。

You now have the ability to cross over into other business units.

您现在有能力跨入其他业务部门。

You are now the reason that, hey, if your competitor comes in, well, you got there first.

现在，你就是这样的原因：嘿，如果你的竞争对手进来，那么，你就是第一个到达那里的人。

So what do you think procurement's going to say?

那么您认为采购会说什么？

This is why it's so important to get into the enterprise as fast as humanly possible.

这就是为什么尽快进入企业是如此重要。

While it's a headache to get through, if you project manage it, you'll be good.

虽然这是一件令人头疼的事情，但如果你能对其进行项目管理，那就会很好。

If you make an accountability, just like if you were to go through fundraising.

如果你承担责任，就像你要进行筹款一样。

If you are a part of a team that had to raise money, it's no different.

如果您是必须筹集资金的团队的一员，那也没有什么不同。

There's always some level of due diligence.

总是有一定程度的尽职调查。

There's always you doing more of the work than them.

你总是比他们做更多的工作。

That's just enterprise sales.

这只是企业销售。

But if you prove value, your hundred thousand dollars deal could be $500,000 next year.

但如果你证明了价值，你的十万美元交易明年可能会达到 50 万美元。

Your $500,000 deal could be a million dollars the following year.

你的 500,000 美元交易明年可能会达到 100 万美元。

Jen Abel: This is where stuff begins to compound, and this is where your growth journey really gets accelerated.

Jen Abel：这是事情开始复合的地方，也是你的成长之旅真正加速的地方。

So the beauty with enterprise is once you're in, you're in.

因此，进取心的美妙之处在于，一旦你加入，你就加入了。

You beat out your competitor for a short period of time.

您在短时间内击败了竞争对手。

There is a little bit of a moat there, but it's not forever.

那里有一点护城河，但它不是永远的。

You all have intel that no one else will have.

你们都拥有其他人不会拥有的情报。

Meaning you're a part of the conversations, you have the badge, you can join the meetings, you can ask for introductions.

这意味着您是对话的一部分，您拥有徽章，您可以参加会议，您可以要求介绍。

They'll do it.

他们会做的。

It doesn't feel like sales anymore.

感觉不再是销售了。

You're now a partner.

您现在是合作伙伴了。

This is why it's so powerful to get into the enterprise because there's so many compounding effects.

这就是为什么进入企业如此强大，因为有如此多的复合效应。

If you put the effort in on the sales side, the return is insane.

如果你在销售方面投入精力，回报是疯狂的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太棒了。

Nailed it.

搞定了。

I'm excited.

我很兴奋。

Just for folks that are listening, just to calibrate what size of company you're talking about selling to here, what's the size of the advice you've been sharing so far?

对于那些正在倾听的人来说，只是为了校准您在这里谈论的销售公司的规模，您到目前为止分享的建议的规模有多大？

Roughly?

大致？

Jen Abel: So I've been talking a lot about enterprise sales, which is I would say anywhere north of 500 to a thousand employees.

Jen Abel：所以我一直在谈论企业销售，我想说的是 500 到 1000 名员工以上的任何地方。

Just mental model.

只是心理模型。

I'm talking about enterprise sales specifically because there's so much nuance involved in it, because the user and the buyer are very different, right?

我特意谈论企业销售，因为其中涉及很多细微差别，因为用户和买家非常不同，对吧？

As you go down market, let's talk about small business for a second.

当您进入市场时，让我们谈谈小企业。

The user and the buyer are the same person.

用户和购买者是同一个人。

There's no procurement.

没有采购。

If they like what you've built, it's pretty straightforward process.

如果他们喜欢您所构建的内容，那么这是一个非常简单的过程。

In the mid-market, mid-market is a funky place because you either are anchoring towards the lower end of mid-market, which is more upper end of small business, or you're anchoring towards lower end enterprise.

在中端市场，中端市场是一个时髦的地方，因为你要么锚定中端市场的低端，即小型企业的高端，要么锚定低端企业。

Those are two very different divides.

这是两个截然不同的鸿沟。

So mid-market, just if you're talking about lower end enterprise, again, this is all relative.

因此，在中端市场，如果您谈论的是低端企业，那么这都是相对的。

If you're talking about lower end small business, again, your user and the buyer probably are the same person, which makes sales a lot more streamlined.

如果您谈论的是低端小型企业，那么您的用户和买家可能是同一个人，这使得销售更加简化。

Jen Abel: But churn.

Jen Abel：但是流失。

Small business, challenge with small business is the churn.

小企业面临的挑战是客户流失。

If they get pissed off, if they don't feel like it's good enough, they are gone faster than you don't even realize.

如果他们生气了，如果他们觉得不够好，他们就会比你意识到的更快地消失。

And they might even tell you.

他们甚至可能会告诉你。

They'll just cancel.

他们只会取消。

And we always see this on Twitter.

我们总是在推特上看到这一点。

They'll call American Express and say, cancel these charges.

他们会打电话给美国运通并说取消这些费用。

I don't want to talk to these people anymore.

我不想再和这些人说话了。

They're just more irrational because sometimes maybe it's their money if they're a small business.

他们只是更加不理性，因为有时如果他们是小企业，那可能就是他们的钱。

So small business in mid-market, while sales is a bit faster, you really got to be on the product market fit side, worried about churn.

因此，中端市场的小型企业虽然销售速度更快，但您确实必须保持产品市场契合度，担心客户流失。

Lenny Rachitsky: And they also go out of business at a higher rate.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且他们倒闭的速度也更高。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so you have that kind of churn.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你就有了这种流失。

Jen Abel: A churn piece too.

Jen Abel：也是一个令人厌烦的作品。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

What comes next?

接下来会发生什么？

So we're kind of in procurement at this point.

所以我们现在正在进行采购。

Jen Abel: Okay, so now we're at signature, right?

Jen Abel：好的，现在我们可以签名了，对吧？

Jen Abel: Okay.

珍·阿贝尔：好的。

So as you enter procurement, okay, you want to know before you get to the next stage, who is signing this deal?

因此，当您进入采购阶段时，好吧，在进入下一阶段之前您想知道谁签署了这笔交易？

Here are some examples of signers I've seen.

以下是我见过的一些签名者的例子。

Chief financial officer, chief legal officer, the business unit head themselves, the head of procurement.

首席财务官、首席法务官、业务部门负责人、采购负责人。

You want to know who that person is so that you can literally say to the head of procurement, hey, listen, I want to make sure this person has everything they need when they review this, to know what they're signing.

你想知道那个人是谁，这样你就可以对采购主管说，嘿，听着，我想确保这个人在审查时拥有他们需要的一切，以知道他们正在签署什么。

Who is it and how can I give you a few bullets to share that you can maybe respond to, that we get tight so that they know exactly what they're looking at?

它是谁？我怎样才能给你一些要点来分享，你也许可以回应，我们保持紧张，以便他们确切地知道他们在看什么？

Jen Abel: This was two or three years ago, I was involved in getting a deal over procurement that was just truly, it was a pharmaceutical company and it was very, very long process.

Jen Abel：这是两三年前的事，我参与了一笔真正的采购交易，那是一家制药公司，这是一个非常非常漫长的过程。

And we got to the finish line and the CFO was the signature.

我们到达了终点线，首席财务官签名了。

And this is when I made the mistake.

这就是我犯错误的时候。

CFO responds back to the procurement lead who sent it to the business unit, who sent it to me and was like, what am I signing?

首席财务官回复采购主管，采购主管将其发送给业务部门，业务部门又将其发送给我，然后问我，我要签署什么？

I don't actually understand what these people are doing and why are we doing this?

我实际上不明白这些人在做什么以及我们为什么这样做？

Jen Abel: So then she quickly said to me, hey, listen, we need to defend this.

Jen Abel：所以她很快对我说，嘿，听着，我们需要捍卫这一点。

Can you put together some bullets?

你能把一些子弹放在一起吗？

And I'm like, well, what kind of bullets do I need?

我想，好吧，我需要什么样的子弹？

What does this person care about?

这个人关心什么？

And again, it created so much anxiety and now I'm back in the bottom of the queue.

再一次，它造成了如此多的焦虑，现在我又回到了队列的底部。

Probably he or she's looking at the things that come in in an order of priority.

他或她可能正在按优先顺序查看出现的事情。

So now I've elongated this by another month simply because I didn't plan.

所以现在我把这个时间又延长了一个月，只是因为我没有计划。

So this is just to say I'm learning from my own mistake of know who the signature is, because if they don't know what they're looking at, they're going to kick it out and you're going to lose your queue spot.

所以这只是说我正在从自己的错误中吸取教训，知道签名是谁，因为如果他们不知道他们在看什么，他们就会把它踢出去，你就会失去队列位置。

Lenny Rachitsky: So many ways to fail.

Lenny Rachitsky：失败的方式有很多。

And this was you selling Jellyfish or this was you working with a company?

这是你在卖水母还是你在与一家公司合作？

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

Okay.

好的。

Anything else in that step that might be helpful to folks?

该步骤中还有什么可能对人们有帮助的吗？

Jen Abel: Yes.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

One thing to caveat is you do not get paid until you are approved by finance, and procurement has a signature on the contract.

需要注意的一件事是，在获得财务批准并且采购在合同上签字之前，您不会收到付款。

Meaning don't start any work.

意思是不要开始任何工作。

Or if you do start work, know that there is no payment.

或者，如果您开始工作，请知道没有付款。

The business unit can't just pay you.

业务部门不能只付钱给你。

It's paid through a purchase order, which is paid through by finance.

它是通过采购订单支付的，采购订单是通过财务支付的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So don't rely on that money unless it's finally, unless the signature's on the paper.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以不要依赖这笔钱，除非最后，除非签名在纸上。

Quick tangent, thoughts on discounting at any parts of the journey?

快切线，有没有在旅程的任何部分打折的想法？

Jen Abel: If there is a reason as to why.

Jen Abel：如果有理由的话。

So discounting just to get the deal over the line, you're negotiating with yourself.

因此，为了完成交易而打折，你是在与自己谈判。

Unless they ask for it and then ask them to defend it.

除非他们提出要求，然后要求他们捍卫它。

Certain segments, like small business, you should leave a little bit of room for buffer because sometimes that's their own money.

某些细分市场，例如小型企业，您应该留出一点缓冲空间，因为有时这是他们自己的钱。

It's like their own small business.

这就像他们自己的小企业。

Mid-market and enterprise, there's got to be a reason why and ask them.

中端市场和企业，必须有一个原因并询问他们。

Be like, hey, so if I give you a 30% discount, can I remove 30% of the value?

就像，嘿，如果我给你 30% 的折扣，我可以去掉 30% 的价值吗？

You can kind of play it a little bit like that.

你可以像这样玩一点。

I don't recommend it, but that's kind of what they're saying.

我不推荐这样做，但他们就是这么说的。

But discounting is great if they're doing something for you far and beyond.

但如果他们为你做的事情远远超出了你的预期，那么折扣就很棒了。

For example, if they're a design partner, if they're going to be a reference for two years, if they're going to give you something far beyond just using the technology, then yeah, I think a discount is a good reason to give back to somebody that's giving to you, but not as a strategy to get a deal done.

例如，如果他们是设计合作伙伴，如果他们将成为两年的参考，如果他们将给你提供一些远远超出仅仅使用技术的东西，那么是的，我认为折扣是回馈给你的人的一个很好的理由，但不是作为完成交易的策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Is there anything beyond this step of getting the signature?

除了获取签名这一步之外还有什么吗？

Are we done?

我们完成了吗？

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

I hope you celebrate because-

我希望你庆祝，因为-

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

You got a signature from this whole process.

您在整个过程中获得了签名。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Hopefully I'm not making this sound too daunting.

希望我没有让这听起来太令人畏惧。

I'm just really trying to lay out all the mistakes I've made.

我只是想把我所犯的所有错误都列出来。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, no, this is exactly what people need.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，不，这正是人们所需要的。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

And your pep talk was really helpful too.

你的鼓舞人心的演讲也非常有帮助。

Along the way.

一路上。

What's the general timeline for sales process like this in your experience, with these 500 plus ice companies?

根据您的经验，在这 500 多家制冰公司中，此类销售流程的一般时间表是怎样的？

Jen Abel: So there's three things that dictate sales cycle.

Jen Abel：所以，销售周期由三件事决定。

One is how well are you project managing it?

一是你的项目管理得怎么样？

For example, I'll say, let's have our second or third call in two weeks.

例如，我会说，让我们在两周内进行第二次或第三次通话。

Two weeks?

两周？

Do a week.

做一周。

Why are you elongating this?

你为什么要拉长这个？

Keep your calls as tight as possible because that shortens your sales cycle.

尽可能紧密地联系您，因为这会缩短您的销售周期。

The second is just how complex the organization is.

第二是组织的复杂程度。

If you're dealing with a highly regulated industry, just know it's going to take a bit longer, sometimes 20 to 30% longer.

如果您面对的是一个受到严格监管的行业，那么您需要知道这需要更长的时间，有时甚至要长 20% 到 30%。

So a highly regulated industry, nine to 12 months on conservative, on the conservative side.

因此，一个受到高度监管的行业，保守的时间是九到十二个月。

Again, it's tricky because is there a budget line item dictated towards it yet, or are you creating budget?

同样，这很棘手，因为是否有针对它的预算项目，或者您是否正在制定预算？

How painful is the problem?

这个问题有多痛苦？

And how senior have you gone?

你已经几级了？

If you're talking to the SVP or chief of whatever, they're pretty good at about being able to navigate the traps.

如果你正在与高级副总裁或其他主管交谈，他们非常擅长避开陷阱。

Jen Abel: If you're dealing with a director or mid-level person, they maybe have not purchased something before and just make some internal mistakes.

Jen Abel：如果你与一位主管或中层人员打交道，他们可能以前没有购买过某些东西，只是犯了一些内部错误。

I always say it can range anywhere.

我总是说它可以分布在任何地方。

I've seen enterprise deals close in 90 days, believe it or not.

不管你信不信，我见过企业在 90 天内完成交易。

Rare, but I've seen it.

很少见，不过我见过。

I've also seen enterprise deals typically take anywhere between six and 12 months.

我还发现企业交易通常需要 6 到 12 个月的时间。

Really important but.

确实很重要但是。

Enterprises know that the process and the length to get the deal done is what costs more than the technology itself.

企业知道，完成交易的流程和时间比技术本身的成本更高。

Meaning the effort it takes to get through their system.

意味着通过他们的系统所需的努力。

That's why they're willing to spend so much.

这就是为什么他们愿意花这么多钱。

Sometimes that's actually more expensive than the technology itself.

有时这实际上比技术本身更昂贵。

So don't negotiate with yourself, understand the value you're delivering, but don't be crazy.

因此，不要与自己谈判，了解你正在提供的价值，但不要疯狂。

I've seen people try and go in with a million dollar deal as a seed stage startup.

我见过人们尝试以一百万美元的交易作为种子阶段的初创公司。

Oh, interesting thing.

哦，有趣的事情。

So interesting tactic.

非常有趣的策略。

I've seen contracts in the enterprise that state that the deal cannot exceed more than 20% of the existing revenue.

我见过企业的合同上写明交易额不能超过现有收入的20%。

Jen Abel: So there are these things just to be aware of.

Jen Abel：所以有这些事情需要注意。

In most cases, you can ask them be like, is that a hard line?

在大多数情况下，你可以问他们，这是一条强硬路线吗？

Is that hard, hard line?

这是一条硬线吗？

Or how negotiable is that?

或者说这有多大的商量余地？

Sometimes it's negotiable.

有时是可以协商的。

Sometimes it's like, no, this is a hard rule.

有时会想，不，这是一条硬性规定。

But then it seems silly because you take a hundred thousand dollar deal and bring it down to 20,000.

但这似乎很愚蠢，因为你接受了 10 万美元的交易，然后将其降低到 20,000 美元。

It's just be careful that you're stripping some of the value out.

只是要小心，你会剥夺一些价值。

But I kid you not.

但我没有骗你。

I've seen an enterprise deal go from, it lands at 60 and it turns into 280,000 in four months.

我见过一笔企业交易从 60 笔到四个月内变成 280,000 笔。

So again, I want to encourage, yes, this is a lot of work, but the payoff is exponential.

所以，我想再次鼓励，是的，这是一项大量的工作，但回报是指数级的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's a good ACV to start with if you're trying to sell to enterprise, to make it all worth it for your startup?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你想向企业销售产品，让你的初创公司觉得一切都值得，那么从什么开始，什么是好的 ACV？

Jen Abel: I would say anywhere between 50 to 200K depending on the business unit you're selling to.

Jen Abel：我想说 50 到 20 万之间，具体取决于您销售的业务部门。

That's kind of like sweet spot.

这有点像甜蜜点。

They're used to something in that realm.

他们已经习惯了那个领域的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is a startup selling .

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一家销售 .

Jen Abel: Early stage startup, like founder led, early stage.

Jen Abel：早期初创公司，如创始人领导的早期阶段。

Jen Abel: Yep.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Initial contract.

初始合同。

I would say, okay, probably caters more towards like 50 to 100K.

我想说，好吧，可能更适合 50 到 100K。

But I've seen people sell to...

但我见过有人卖...

Again, it's how big is the problem?

再说一遍，问题有多大？

Who are you selling it to?

你要把它卖给谁？

Is it the SVP that you started with and they've got a large budget, and it's a pretty healthy business unit?

是你一开始的高级副总裁吗？他们有大量预算，而且是一个相当健康的业务部门？

Or are you selling to a director?

或者你要卖给导演吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're not able to sell your product at that price?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您无法以这个价格出售您的产品怎么办？

What's your advice to teams?

您对团队有什么建议？

Jen Abel: If you are a startup, I always ask the founder, did you build this for the enterprise and is that the model you want to play?

Jen Abel：如果你是一家初创公司，我总是问创始人，你是为企业打造的吗？这是你想要采用的模式吗？

Or did you build this for small business?

或者您是为小型企业构建的？

Small business is a marketing game.

小企业是一种营销游戏。

Marketing intensive activity, right?

营销密集型活动，对吗？

It's high velocity, high volume, lots of dials.

它具有高速度、高容量、大量的转盘。

It's a very different game than enterprise.

这是一个与企业截然不同的游戏。

So which game do you want to play?

那么你想玩哪款游戏呢？

Let's just start there.

让我们从这里开始吧。

Which game is more attractive to the founder.

哪个游戏对创始人更有吸引力。

Or who is more exciting to serve?

或者服务谁更令人兴奋？

What's the storyline you want to tell investors?

您想告诉投资者的故事情节是什么？

That plays a lot of it into it too.

这也发挥了很大作用。

And do you have an enterprise product?

你们有企业产品吗？

Are you solving an enterprise problem or do you think you're solving an enterprise problem but you're not sure yet?

您正在解决企业问题，还是您认为自己正在解决企业问题但您还不确定？

Lenny Rachitsky: And your point is also mid-market is it's rarely to be successful.

Lenny Rachitsky：您的观点也是中端市场，因为它很少能成功。

Jen Abel: It's hard to start there because you're straddling two very different go-to-markets, right?

Jen Abel：从这里开始很难，因为你正跨越两个截然不同的市场，对吗？

One that's of high value, one that's of high volume.

一种是高价值的，一种是高容量的。

And also mid-market companies, this is where a lot of people don't...

还有中端市场公司，这是很多人不...

If it requires heavy integration, they don't have those resources.

如果需要大量集成，他们就没有这些资源。

That's usually outsourced to an Accenture or some of these consulting firms, and now you're having to rely on third parties to be involved.

这通常外包给埃森哲或其中一些咨询公司，现在您必须依赖第三方参与。

It gets messy.

它变得混乱。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

I have a list of questions from the audience that you pulled from Twitter.

我有一份观众提出的问题清单，是你从 Twitter 上提取的。

You asked on Twitter what questions to ask you as you're coming on here.

你在 Twitter 上询问当你来到这里时要问你什么问题。

So there's one that's very related to this, which is someone said, if you're still very early in pre-product market fit, but get initial validation from both small to medium businesses and enterprise, how do you decide which one to focus on?

所以有一个与此非常相关的问题，有人说，如果你还处于产品前市场契合的早期阶段，但得到了中小型企业和企业的初步验证，你如何决定关注哪一个？

Is there a counter argument against starting or SMB going up market over time like most companies do?

是否有反对者反对像大多数公司那样随着时间的推移启动或中小企业进入市场？

Jen Abel: I've seen companies successfully do in both of those motions.

Jen Abel：我见过一些公司成功地完成了这两项动议。

Truthfully.

说实话。

We know all of those.

这些我们都知道。

We know people that started small business and worked their way up into enterprise and were successful.

我们知道有些人开始做小生意，然后一步步进入大企业，并取得了成功。

We've seen people be really successful by starting at the enterprise, like a Wiz.

我们已经看到人们通过从企业起步而获得真正的成功，就像奇才一样。

That's more of an internal question, which is like, who did you build this for?

这更多的是一个内部问题，比如，你是为谁构建的？

Where's the problem most felt and which go-to-market game do you want to play?

最感受到的问题在哪里？您想玩哪种上市游戏？

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think that latter part is so important.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为后一部分非常重要。

It sounds like why should it be what I want?

听起来为什么应该是我想要的？

It's like what's going to make a big business?

就像什么才能做成大生意？

But I think people forget, this is going to be your life for 10 years.

但我认为人们忘记了，这将是你十年的生活。

Do you want to be selling to enterprises and building all the enterprise features?

您想向企业销售并构建所有企业功能吗？

Would you prefer to build for small companies?

您愿意为小公司建造吗？

Pros and cons to both but it's important to think about the life you're creating for yourself and your team.

两者都有优点和缺点，但重要的是要考虑一下你为自己和团队创造的生活。

Jen Abel: A hundred percent.

珍·阿贝尔：百分之一百。

And I built my career in enterprise sales, upper-end mid-market enterprise sales, and yeah, that's just the game I know the best.

我的职业生涯建立在企业销售、高端中端市场企业销售领域，是的，这就是我最了解的游戏。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's also an important part of it.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这也是其中的重要组成部分。

Just to double down on that is like what do you have experience doing?

只是加倍努力就像你有做什么经验一样？

Not like...

不像...

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Where's the opportunity?

机会在哪里？

Okay.

好的。

Another question that I love is, and we touched on this initially, but I think it's good to come back to this.

我喜欢的另一个问题是，我们最初谈到了这个问题，但我认为回到这个问题是很好的。

Someone said, customers are fascinated with what we're offering from the initial calls, but responsive momentum is too slow from their end.

有人说，客户从最初的电话中就对我们提供的服务着迷，但最终的响应势头太慢。

Would be great to know how to fix this.

很高兴知道如何解决这个问题。

Jen Abel: Yeah, it's tough because unless you're in the weeds to understand why.

Jen Abel：是的，这很难，因为除非你深入了解原因。

I'll give you a few examples that it could be.

我会给你举几个例子。

Did you speak to a buyer who now is trying to sell this up to their boss, and it's just getting sidelined and they don't know the executive value?

您是否与一位买家交谈过，他现在正试图将其出售给他们的老板，但它只是被边缘化，而且他们不知道执行价值？

They've just been selling the buyer value the whole time.

他们一直在销售买家价值。

That's one reason things can slow down.

这是事情进展缓慢的原因之一。

Another reason things can slow down is you haven't really framed the problem well and they don't understand the full implications of why they need to solve it.

事情变慢的另一个原因是你没有真正很好地描述问题，而且他们不理解为什么他们需要解决这个问题的全部含义。

So it's kind of just sitting there a little bit.

所以它只是坐在那里一点点。

The third is they've just been really nice and it's not going to go anywhere.

第三，他们真的很好，但不会有任何结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess that that's usually the latter.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想通常是后者。

Was that true or it's kind of all over the place?

这是真的还是到处都有？

Jen Abel: It's so hard to give a founder hard feedback.

Jen Abel：给创始人提供严格的反馈是非常困难的。

Because they've just dedicated their life to this thing.

因为他们刚刚把一生都奉献给了这件事。

Who wants to be the bearer of bad news?

谁愿意成为坏消息的传播者？

And sometimes you just need to let the actions speak louder than words.

有时你只需要让行动胜于雄辩。

Lenny Rachitsky: We've talked about all these steps.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们已经讨论了所有这些步骤。

I'm curious, when you come to a founder or your team, where do you find the most on lock often?

我很好奇，当你来到创始人或你的团队时，你发现哪里最容易被锁定？

Which of the steps of the sales process do you find the biggest opportunity to improve conversion in sales?

您认为销售流程的哪些步骤最有可能提高销售转化率？

Jen Abel: It's qualification.

Jen Abel：这是资格。

Qualification because if you spend your time on the wrong leads, that equates to a zero.

资格，因为如果你把时间花在错误的线索上，那就等于零。

So if you don't get that first level right, let me put it this way, everyone that I know says they have a bottom of funnel problem.

所以，如果你没有把第一级做好，让我这样说，我认识的每个人都说他们有漏斗底部问题。

It's never a bottom of funnel problem.

这从来都不是漏斗底部的问题。

It's a top of funnel problem.

这是漏斗顶部的问题。

I've actually never seen a bottom of funnel sales problem.

事实上，我从未见过漏斗底部的销售问题。

It's always qualification, which is a symptom of not reaching out to the right person, not having the right messaging, not solving the right problem, or not being different enough.

这始终是资格问题，这是没有接触到正确的人、没有传递正确的信息、没有解决正确的问题或不够与众不同的症状。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

So basically the biggest pitfall people fall into, in your experience, is they're just talking to the wrong people, wasting their time?

因此，根据您的经验，人们陷入的最大陷阱基本上是他们只是在与错误的人交谈，浪费时间吗？

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Talking to the wrong people or using the wrong message or...

与错误的人交谈或使用错误的信息或......

Lenny Rachitsky: Pitching them something they can't actually deliver.

Lenny Rachitsky：向他们推销他们实际上无法交付的东西。

Jen Abel: Yeah.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

Here's the other thing too.

这还有另一件事。

Sales is supposed to feel fun for the buyer.

销售应该让买家感到有趣。

They should be like, this feels fun.

他们应该会这样，这感觉很有趣。

This person's invigorating.

这个人很励志啊

They're going to change my world.

他们将改变我的世界。

They're going to make me see things differently.

他们会让我以不同的方式看待事物。

They're going to get me promoted.

他们会让我升职的。

They're going to help me increase my influence internally.

他们将帮助我增加我的内部影响力。

And so many salespeople are so boring.

而且很多销售人员都很无聊。

How many times have you got off a call and you're like, I can't wait to get off this call?

有多少次你挂断电话后会想，我迫不及待地想挂断电话？

And founders too, just like all of a sudden their passion, they go like stone cold face.

创始人也是如此，就像突然间他们的热情一样，他们脸色冰冷。

And it's like bring the passion.

就像带来激情一样。

Bring the energy.

带上能量。

That is felt by the market.

这是市场所感受到的。

Remember, some of these people are in boring jobs.

请记住，其中一些人从事着无聊的工作。

Give them an outlet.

给他们一个出口。

Lenny Rachitsky: So along those lines, I think a lot of people are just not...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以沿着这些思路，我认为很多人只是不......

Like me included.

包括我在内。

I feel weird doing sales.

我觉得做销售很奇怪。

It's a weird experience trying to convince someone to buy something.

试图说服某人买东西是一种奇怪的经历。

Is there any advice you could share to get someone over that hump?

您有什么建议可以分享来帮助别人克服困难吗？

Jen Abel: If you have built something that you believe in.

Jen Abel：如果你已经建立了你相信的东西。

Very hard to sell something you don't believe in.

很难出售你不相信的东西。

I think everyone agrees that.

我想每个人都同意这一点。

If you've built something you believe in and they have a problem, that's a beautiful thing.

如果你构建了你相信的东西而他们遇到了问题，那是一件美好的事情。

Truthfully, that's what makes the world go around, is I have a solution to your problem.

说实话，这就是世界运转的动力，就是我有办法解决你的问题。

Now you just need make sure that the problem, you just need to be honest, that the problem they have, your solution truly can solve for.

现在你只需要确保问题，你只需要诚实，他们遇到的问题，你的解决方案确实可以解决。

And you're not short selling just to get a logo and a deal over the line, and see them churn in six months or nine months or three months.

你卖空的目的不仅仅是为了获得一个标志和一笔交易，然后看到它们在六个月、九个月或三个月内流失。

That what you are selling is truly going to solve their problem.

你所销售的产品确实能够解决他们的问题。

And be honest about it.

并诚实地对待它。

I can't tell you enough when I tell someone, listen, I don't think I'm the right fit for you.

当我告诉某人时，我无法告诉你足够多的信息，听着，我认为我不适合你。

They try and sell you on them.

他们试图向你推销它们。

Jen Abel: They're like, well, wait a second.

Jen Abel：他们就像，好吧，等一下。

Hold on.

坚持，稍等。

What if we did this, this, and this?

如果我们这样做、这样、这样怎么办？

And it's like, no, no, no. Here's what we're great at.

就像，不，不，不。这就是我们所擅长的。

And then they can say, well, I also need that too.

然后他们可以说，好吧，我也需要那个。

And all of a sudden, this level of trust comes out.

突然之间，这种程度的信任就出现了。

And trust is the number one currency in sales.

信任是销售中的第一货币。

If you are a trusted salesperson, people will recommend you all day and every day.

如果您是值得信赖的销售人员，人们会日复一日地推荐您。

If you're a trusted founder, your market will continually send you leads and word of mouth.

如果您是一位值得信赖的创始人，您的市场将不断向您发送线索和口碑。

So don't try and sell something just to prove to investors you sold something, because it'll be quickly seen on the other side when they churn.

因此，不要试图出售某些东西只是为了向投资者证明你卖掉了某些东西，因为当他们流失时，对方很快就会看到。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, Jen, so I'm going to cut the lightning round.

好的，Jen，所以我要切断闪电回合。

I know you also have to run and do real work.

我知道你还必须跑步并做真正的工作。

So let me give you a chance just to talk about what you do, how you help companies in case folks can find value in working with you.

因此，让我给您一个机会来谈谈您的工作以及您如何帮助公司，以防人们在与您合作时发现价值。

Jen Abel: Deeply passionate about sales, as I'm sure you can tell.

Jen Abel：我相信您可以看出，我对销售充满热情。

We specifically help founders through this pain.

我们专门帮助创始人度过这种痛苦。

Navigating enterprise sales, mid-market sales, and really trying to crack that first million of ARR.

引导企业销售、中端市场销售，并真正尝试突破第一个 100 万的 ARR。

Or sometimes even that first 500K of ARR if they move fast enough.

有时甚至是 ARR 的前 500K，如果他们移动得足够快的话。

And it is really hard.

这真的很难。

It's counterintuitive to what most people think, but it can be really, really fun when we show you the way.

这与大多数人的想法是违反直觉的，但当我们向您展示方法时，它会非常非常有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you described to me how it works, and I think it's important to clarify this.

Lenny Rachitsky：你向我描述了它是如何工作的，我认为澄清这一点很重要。

You basically embed with the team and help them do this.

你基本上融入团队并帮助他们做到这一点。

Jen Abel: Yes.

珍·阿贝尔：是的。

So I fundamentally do not believe in outsourcing the heartbeat of the organization, which is sales.

所以我从根本上不相信外包组织的核心业务，即销售。

So what we do is we embed alongside the founder and drive a lot of the execution, but make sure that they are the tip of the spear engaging directly with their market, and learning directly from the market's mouth, not playing this game of telephone.

因此，我们所做的就是嵌入创始人身边并推动大量执行，但要确保他们是直接与市场接触的矛尖，并直接从市场的嘴里学习，而不是玩这种电话游戏。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I mentioned this when we were chatting, but I think of it again, is when I was interviewing all these companies about how they started selling early on.

我在聊天时提到过这一点，但我再次想起，是当我采访所有这些公司，了解他们如何早期开始销售时。

One of the interesting threads that I heard again and again, is how many of them hired a coach or a consultant as a founder to help them learn to do sales.

我一次又一次听到的有趣话题之一是，他们中有多少人聘请了教练或顾问作为创始人来帮助他们学习销售。

And that's essentially what you do.

这本质上就是你所做的。

And I didn't even know a service like this existed, so this is super cool.

我什至不知道有这样的服务存在，所以这太酷了。

It'll point people to what you do.

它会向人们指出你所做的事情。

I also have to ask you, the question I ask everyone at the end is just, how can listeners be useful to you?

我还要问大家，我最后问大家的问题就是，听众对你有什么用处？

Jen Abel: Help each other out.

Jen Abel：互相帮助。

I think so many people have helped me in my career, and in this journey, that the pay it forward model that exists in the technology space is so beautiful.

我认为在我的职业生涯和这段旅程中，有很多人帮助过我，技术领域存在的回馈模式是如此美好。

So just don't let that die.

所以不要让它消亡。

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。

Well, Jen, thank you so much for being here.

嗯，Jen，非常感谢你来到这里。

Jen Abel: Lenny, this was awesome.

Jen Abel：Lenny，这太棒了。

Thank you so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: So awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So excited for folks to hear it.

人们听到这个消息很兴奋。

I've learned a ton.

我学到了很多。

Okay, I'll let you go.

好吧，我让你走。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

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您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。